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Parliamentary Debates House of Commons Official Report General Committees PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES Public Bill Committee COUNTER-TERRORISM AND BORDER SECURITY BILL First Sitting Tuesday 26 June 2018 (Morning) CONTENTS Programme motion agreed to. Written evidence (Reporting to the House) motion agreed to. Motion to sit in private agreed to. Examination of witnesses. Adjourned till this day at Two o’clock. PBC (Bill 219) 2017 - 2019 No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the final version of the report should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Saturday 30 June 2018 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2018 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1 Public Bill Committee 26 JUNE 2018 Counter-Terrorism and Border 2 Security Bill The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chairs: MRS ANNE MAIN,†JOAN RYAN † Bowie, Andrew (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) † Maclean, Rachel (Redditch) (Con) (Con) † Maynard, Paul (Lord Commissioner of Her † Chapman, Douglas (Dunfermline and West Fife) Majesty’s Treasury) (SNP) † Newlands, Gavin (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) † Coyle, Neil (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab) (SNP) † Dakin, Nic (Scunthorpe) (Lab) † Pursglove, Tom (Corby) (Con) Doughty, Stephen (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ † Smith, Eleanor (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab) Co-op) † Thomas-Symonds, Nick (Torfaen) (Lab) † Wallace, Mr Ben (Minister for Security and † Foster, Kevin (Torbay) (Con) Economic Crime) † Hall, Luke (Thornbury and Yate) (Con) † Warman, Matt (Boston and Skegness) (Con) † Hoare, Simon (North Dorset) (Con) † Huq, Dr Rupa (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab) Nehal Bradley-Depani, David Weir, Committee Clerks † Khan, Afzal (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab) † Lopez, Julia (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con) † attended the Committee Witnesses Assistant Commissioner Neil Basu, Metropolitan Police Gregor McGill, Director of Legal Services, Crown Prosecution Service Richard Atkinson, Chair of the Criminal Law Committee, The Law Society 3 Public Bill Committee HOUSE OF COMMONS Counter-Terrorism and Border 4 Security Bill I welcome the consensus on Second Reading about Public Bill Committee the principles of the Bill. No doubt, we will all explore the details of what goes in it. At our meeting yesterday Tuesday 26 June 2018 we came to an accommodation on timings and witnesses. (Morning) For the record, we should recognise that a number of people we asked to be witnesses either chose not to, or [JOAN RYAN in the Chair] were unable to, come. I do not think that is a reflection Counter-Terrorism and Border on the Bill, but it is why we do not have the full sheet of witnesses put forward by all parties to begin with. I am Security Bill confident, however, that we have a spread of critics, 9.25 am supporters and objective commentators.Therefore, without holding up the Committee any more, I ask it to agree to The Chair: Before we begin, let me say that you are the motion. welcome to remove jackets or ties—I would call it a day at that—because it is very hot. I have just a few preliminary Question put and agreed to. points. Please make sure that your electronic devices are Resolved, switched off. Tea and coffee are not allowed during That, subject to the discretion of the Chair, any written evidence sittings—I have been asked to say that because people received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for keep walking in with coffee cups and so on. publication.—(Mr Wallace.) We will consider the programme motion on the amendment paper and then take the motion enabling The Chair: Copies of the written evidence the Committee the reporting of written evidence for publication, before receives will be made available in the Committee Room. taking a motion to enable us to deliberate in private. We Resolved, will then talk about the order in which Members may wish to kick off and look at the questions provided—you That, at this and any subsequent meeting at which oral evidence is to be heard, the Committee shall sit in private until the can of course add in any of your own. witnesses are admitted.—(Mr Wallace.) I call the Minister to move the programme motion, which was agreed by the Programming Sub-Committee 9.28 am yesterday. The Committee deliberated in private. The Minister for Security and Economic Crime (Mr Ben Wallace): I beg to move, Examination of Witnesses That— (1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at Assistant Commissioner Neil Basu and Gregor McGill 9.25 am on Tuesday 26 June) meet— gave evidence. (a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 26 June; (b) at 11.30 am on Thursday 28 June; 9.30 am (c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 3 July; Q1 The Chair: Good morning. May I welcome the (d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 5 July; two witnesses, who are with us until 10.55 am? Assistant (e) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 10 July; Commissioner Neil Basu of the Metropolitan police, (f) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 12 July; you are very welcome, and we are very pleased you are (g) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 17 July; here in attendance. Welcome also to Gregor McGill, (2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with director of legal services to the Crown Prosecution the following Table: Service. We thought we would start by asking each of Table you to make a brief statement to the Committee, if you are prepared for that. Date Time Witness Assistant Commissioner Basu: I was not, but I am Tuesday 26 June Until no later than Metropolitan very pleased to be able to make a statement. My current 10.55 am Police; Crown role as assistant commissioner counter-terrorism policing Prosecution Service means that I co-ordinate the network in the UK of nine Tuesday 26 June Until no later than The Law Society counter-terrorism units that deliver counter-terrorism 11.25 am policing on behalf of the 43 chief constables. This is Tuesday 26 June Until no later than Max Hill QC, quite a responsibility, not least because last year I was 2.45 pm Independent senior national co-ordinator for counter-terrorism, Reviewer of Terrorism responsible for the investigations and for the delivery of Legislation Prevent on behalf of policing. Tuesday 26 June Until no later than The Law Society of If you boiled my job description down into one 3.15 pm Scotland simple fact, it is to stop terrorist acts on our soil, along Tuesday 26 June Until no later than Liberty; Criminal with my big partner, MI5. On my watch, 36 people died 3.45 pm Bar Association and many hundreds were injured. I want the Committee to know that I think about that every day. The reason (3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee that I took this job, that I am sitting here giving evidence shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 11; Schedule 1; Clauses 12 to 17; Schedule 2; Clauses 18 to 20; Schedule 3; on, is because I also think about having to stop that Clause 21; Schedule 4; Clauses 22 to 26; new Clauses; new every day. Part of that is something that we call the Schedules; remaining proceedings on the Bill; operational improvement review. I led a strategic board (4) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) along with MI5 that has led to over 100 recommendations, be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 17 July. which are all being implemented as we speak. Part of 5 Public Bill Committee 26 JUNE 2018 Counter-Terrorism and Border 6 Security Bill that was also our work with Government along the lines Gregor McGill: I am aware of the discussion that of what legislation might be required, and I see considerable there has been. Prosecutors require clarity when looking value in the measures set out in the Bill to combat the at legislation, because they have to apply that legislation. change in threat that we have experienced post-2017.The Approaching this practically—we discussed this nature and scale of the terrorist and hostile state actor beforehand—three seems an appropriate number to us, threat to this country has evolved and changed. The because we would not want people to be criminalised simplicity and volatility of terrorism often requires us for inadvertently going on to a website. I have to accept to intervene much earlier to protect the public. Offences that that could happen. That could be a single occasion. previously considered periphery or minor are now seen It is a more difficult argument to accept if the person as indicative of a volatile and unpredictable actor. has gone on to it twice, and it is more difficult again if As we know, terrorism legislation is nearly two decades the person has gone on to it three times. old. In the intervening years, there have been significant There is of course a statutory defence to the offence changes in technology. The reality of the modern world as set out, which gives some safeguards. The code for is that technological developments form part of people’s Crown prosecutors has a two-stage test, which is sufficiency lives and interactions, so legislation should reflect how of evidence and, if the evidence is satisfied, whether it people live in the modern world.
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