LAW REFORM COMMITTEE

Inquiry into legal services in rural

Mildura – 18 July 2000

Members

Mr D. McL. Davis Mr A. J. McIntosh

Ms D. G. Hadden Mr R. E. Stensholt

Mr P. A. Katsambanis Mr M. H. Thompson

Mr T. Languiller

Chairman: Mr M. H. Thompson

Deputy Chairman: Ms D. G. Hadden

Staff

Executive Officer: Ms P. Raman

Research Officers: Ms S. Vohra and Ms M. Mason

Witness

Mr V. Matotek, Chairman; and

Mr N. Forsberg, Manager, Sunraysia Ethnic Communities Council. The CHAIRMAN — The proceedings today have the protection of the Parliamentary Committees Act, and that protection covers sensitive issues. Statements made within the four walls of this room have that legal protection; that protection does not apply to statements made outside. Should there be matters of a confidential nature that you wish to raise with us, we can take that evidence in camera and it will be confidential and privy to the committee. You will receive a copy of the Hansard extract of your contribution today; if you would take the time to check the record for accuracy and then forward it back to our staff that would be appreciated.

I invite you to speak to the matters outlined in writing and forwarded to you earlier. Committee members may interrupt on the way through or hold their questions until the end. I thank you for making your time available to contribute to our visit to and encourage you to introduce yourselves and your backgrounds in the town, which might also give us an overview of your expertise in the area.

Mr MATOTEK — I am Victor Matotek. I am a second-generation Australian of a Croatian background. My father was the Croatian and I am the Australian. He came to Australia and arrived in Mildura back in 1926. He was an Australian for almost 70 years — longer than some Australians, I should imagine. He died just recently, four years ago, aged 101. He had a fair sort of an innings in Australia. He was more an Australian than he was a European.

I have held the position of the chairman of the Sunraysia Ethnic Communities Council for 14 years. That position was allocated to me as a portfolio by the former Mildura Shire Council, which is now extinct. It disappeared in a puff of smoke when we had the amalgamation only a few years ago.

Our council looks after the concerns and needs of our ethnic communities. Quite often I am the spokesman for those ethnic communities when it comes to making statements and various other issues like that. Because of my own background I have a great feeling for any of the concerns brought to our council, and we resolve to do everything we possibly can to resolve any issues.

Our ethnic council has a business arm, which is Northern Migrant Services. From that group we offer a lot of services, including language services, home and community care (HACC), and other migrant services.

Mr Forsberg is the manager of our establishment; Miss Rosa Cinar, looks after mainly the women’s issues; and Helen Kamissis is the HACC worker. We believe we service our area very well. As I said, we look after the needs of our community. Mr Forsberg is the one who has his ear to the ground and the one who does all the work. He is the one who will tell you whether there are any problems here in our area. I have found over the years that those who settled here just after the First World War and the Second World War contributed greatly to the development of our community. A lot of them have assimilated very well. They take up the mainstream services that are provided and seem to handle them very well. We are very proud to have been able to develop this part of Victoria the way we have.

I am also the chairman of Oasis Aged Care. Five years ago we managed to get a grant of $1.5 million for that 30-bed facility from the federal government. The facility has been operating now for 18 months. Mr Philip Ruddock opened it, and we raised $800 000 within the community for our component of the funding. The building cost $2.2 million.

I am also the chairman of the Mildura and District Education Council, which is more like an adult education organisation. However, we also have the contract for Jobs Australia, which is going very well. We still look after the needs of our general community.

I am involved with the Nichols Point community. Nichols Point is where I was born way back in 1938. I went to school there, and although I live in Mildura, we still have links with the progress association of that community.

That is probably enough about myself. Mr Nick Forsberg might like to talk to you about some of the concerns and needs of our communities.

Mr FORSBERG — I am Nick Forsberg. I am Australian, ex-Vietnam, an active bail justice and manager of Sunraysia Ethnic Council.

Vic has told you what he does, but I will give you a brief run-down on our council. It is funded by the departments of immigration, education and state development and the Adult Community Further Education Board. We run a wide range of programs from adult migrant English classes to job employment programs. As Vic said, we also have an ethnic worker who works within the aged care and disability section of the ethnic community. We also have an up and running interpreting service. We have a free line to both the Victorian Interpreting and Translating Services (VITS) and the Telephone Interpreting Service (TIS). We have shared the free line with VITS for a number of years, the funding for which comes from the Department of Human Services.

The older ethnic people in our region are the Croatians — the former Yugoslavs — and mainly the Italians and Greeks, who arrived postwar. The newer communities emerged in about 1970, including members of the Turkish community. They had been in the region earlier when they came up from Adelaide in the early 1960s to work and then eventually went back. They did not start arriving again until about the 1970s. We have the second- largest Turkish community in Victoria. Another emerging community that is becoming quite large is the Tongan community. The Tongan community in would probably equal the Koori community in Robinvale, it has grown so much in numbers. The flow of Tongans comes from Auburn and Parramatta in Sydney; they are doing the second jump from those areas.

We are getting a lot of Pakistanis, South Africans, Vietnamese, and Cambodians, and the Fijians are coming back into the area as well. They are attracted to the area by the agricultural sector and the opportunities for employment.

The Tongans, for example, bring their problems with them. A lot of them do not have access to some government services because of their status in the country. They mainly remain in the Robinvale area because it is easier to gain employment under assumed names and work under a contract system. One Tongan with a tax file number might contract a person’s property for X number of dollars and he can divvy up the proceeds per the week with the other people, so there is no real disadvantage by not declaring themselves as non-Australians.

I am a bail justice. There are six active bail justices up here, and we work on a rotation basis. The downfall of the legal services available to the Koori community is probably their own support. I have been called quite a few times to act as a bail justice in cases involving Koori people, and it has always been hard to find a Koori person to speak on their behalf. Usually only a couple of Koori people in the community are prepared to do that; the rest seem to leave them to their own devices.

The main problem of the ethnic people — for example, the Turkish people — is not properly understanding the process of the law rather than the actual law. They know when they have done something wrong or when they have been caught doing something, but it is the process in between that they do not understand. In not understanding that process they do not understand what legal rights they have to other services as well.

Mr STENSHOLT — Do they seek help through you or is the Turkish community a fairly closed community?

Mr FORSBERG — The Turkish community usually seeks help from us and we explain the processes to them, but there is nothing written in their own language to explain the court system itself, and that is their downfall.

Mr STENSHOLT — What numbers are we talking about?

Mr FORSBERG — The Turkish population up here would be about 1000 to 1200 people, a community of that size. Mr STENSHOLT — Do they have their own community support organisation?

Mr FORSBERG — We find they are breaking away from their own organisations. There is a Suni organisation, which is Islamic, and an Alevi group. However, with a lot of groups the people are breaking away from their own groups because of the social control those groups are trying to exert on some of their members. With the children growing up at school, spreading their wings and drawing on other values, those people are drawing away from those groups.

Mr STENSHOLT — Do they have their own school?

Mr FORSBERG — They have a Turkish-Islamic school up here which is a campus from the Geelong school. That started with quite a number of students but I believe the numbers are dropping now as people are starting to withdraw their children from the school. The idea was to bring children from Sydney and Melbourne into Mildura, where the Mildura children should be going to Sydney and Melbourne schools.

Mr STENSHOLT — The more remote community is a safer community.

Mr FORSBERG — They were looking along those lines.

Mr STENSHOLT — How frequently are members of the Turkish community appearing before the law? Are they overrepresented among the offenders?

Mr FORSBERG — I think they would be on a par — I cannot give you the actual figures, but I gather that they are not held in high esteem with the police department.

Mr STENSHOLT — Do they live in a certain part of town?

Mr FORSBERG — No, they are spread out. The first and second generations are buying fruit and agricultural properties so they are moving on. However, we are still getting a lot of migrants from Turkey and it is hard to change the ways of an adult male. They are still locked into the mentality that what happens in Turkey is what happens here. They are still in that mind-set even though the situation in their own country may have changed. They are caught in the time warp of 20 to 25 years ago, however long they have been here, and that is how they look at things.

Mr STENSHOLT — Do you have people in your organisation who are representative of their community and can assist with their problems?

Mr FORSBERG — On the ethnic council side we have regular monthly meetings when we call the leaders of the groups in and we discuss the problems and look at the issues they have. We have Turkish workers, Tongan workers and Greek workers at the moment, but still the language barrier is the main issue.

The CHAIRMAN — Are they paid workers or voluntary?

Mr FORSBERG — Paid workers. The language is still the biggest barrier to accessing legal professional services. Most courts have an interpreting service up here, but at the present time we are negotiating with Human Services to increase that pool of interpreters. We do not draw from anywhere else. Unfortunately, it costs $400 per person to train that person to a certain level. It is that para-professional level we cannot get them to because not only are they doing the legal side of things, but there is also medical interpreting. Therefore, you do not know at what level the interpreter’s understanding of the legal profession is and you do not know what sort of information is being passed on to the person attending the court.

There is a legal representative with Mallee Family Care. He is usually overworked but doing an excellent job. We are getting a lot of referrals back from him of cases that he cannot do. No-one wants to pay the cost of interpreters, for a start. Legal aid is $70; who will pay that — the client or the solicitor? We are working to provide funds for a commercial pool of interpreters in the area, similar to what Geelong has, where they will be trained and we can use them commercially rather than for health-related or doctor-related matters. We hope they can be qualified to deal with legal matters as well.

Mr STENSHOLT — What categories of offences are common among the Turkish community?

Mr FORSBERG — I It is mainly in drugs; a few burglaries, but more the drug scene. Domestic violence is coming out more as the education programs are kicking in. Over the past four years there has been an increase in women seeking domestic violence services and that is because of education. They are starting to get out more and learn what is in the community, and they are probably taking a more active part in the community than the menfolk.

The CHAIRMAN — You mentioned that people may have been in a time warp or they might have a mind-set going back 25 years. I understood you to say that related to the offences committed by that group. What is the range of offences?

Mr FORSBERG — Mainly stealing, drugs, and domestic violence would relate to that mind-set. Control in the Turkish community has always been like that. Now the women are becoming more educated it goes the other way. It is the opposite in the Tongan community, where domestic violence complaints come from males. We developed our programs for men because we found out we were targeting the wrong group. It is the women who lead the families. A male will not hit a woman but the woman can hit a male, and they will just stand there and take the punishment. A lot of the punishment with the younger kids has been dealt out by the mother. No matter what size he is, he just stands there and takes it. Therefore, domestic violence is mainly not related to women in the Tongan community. A lot of Tongans come from New Zealand, filtering through from Sydney, and many are on tourist visas, which expire. Their understanding of the immigration law is such that they believe they will get permanent residence if they pay the person with a notice on a window saying ‘Permanent residence $3000’. They believe if they pay the $3000 they will get permanent residence.

Mr STENSHOLT — Are there a number of migration agents?

Mr FORSBERG — In this area, no, but we have a lot of trouble even with solicitors from Sydney and some immigration agents putting claims in under refugee status — for example, for Tongans and Turkish people. They charge a fee of $3000 for putting in a $30 application and running through the process that way. They are not providing the correct information.

The CHAIRMAN — If you want to provide any details off the record about that the committee would be happy to take it on board, such as the names of people or firms that need further investigation or where follow-up is warranted.

Mr FORSBERG — I can do that. We found them ranging from immigration agents to the legal profession, and we dealt with some high-up names from Sydney. We took two cases away from solicitors because they were doing the wrong thing by clients in Robinvale. They had the wrong application in. Also there were threats where they lock the system in and take the passport from the client. The idea is if you do not pay the fee, you do not get your passport. At the present time, we are handling migrant review tribunals ourselves because you just cannot get the people.

Ms HADDEN — Who are they responsible to?

The CHAIRMAN — We are not in camera at the moment but we can be if you wish.

Mr FORSBERG — I can get the information for you and put it down on paper. I have details of the cases we have done in the office.

Mr McINTOSH — I just wanted to ask you a few general questions.

The CHAIRMAN — We will go off the record now.

Hearing suspended. The CHAIRMAN — We will now resume the hearing on the record.

Mr FORSBERG — We find that interpreting and the language barrier are the hardest things to deal with in the law. Also, solicitors do not always explain the due process of law to their clients, although certain solicitors we deal with provide the first meeting free and we provide interpreters for them.

Apart from that, there are no immigration agents or specialists in Mildura to give immigration advice. Immigration matters usually get referred to Melbourne, where they can be dealt with promptly.

Mr MATOTEK — We have always felt we are a de facto arm of the Department of Immigration, because the department is so far away and the pressure from the community has always been so great, seeking information and support. We do our best, given the tyranny of distance and the cost of getting down to Melbourne.

We are very thankful that we now have funding for the migrant settlement scheme. We will get $323 000 over a three-year period, which is a great step to enable us to provide that service. I am very pleased that we have the quality of workers who can give the service. As I said, we are faced with the tyranny of distance, and we have to go out to Robinvale and places like that. We have other services, and the administration components of those services help keep our doors open.

Ms HADDEN — How many volunteers do you have?

Mr FORSBERG —We have a home tutor scheme, but they are only on the education side.

The CHAIRMAN — How many paid staff, including the two of you, come under the aegis of your organisation?

Mr FORSBERG — Five, all up. Our services reach to Robinvale; we also deal with inquiries from and Horsham, and we are getting a few up from Renmark and the area in South Australia as well.

We are a fast-growing community, and I believe we will get bigger in the future. We are seen as one of the places where agriculture and employment are growing quickly.

Ms RAMAN — Is your council similarly constituted to the Ethnic Communities Council of Victoria (ECCV)? Do you have elected councillors, or how does the structure work?

Mr MATOTEK — No, we are a body in our own right. Mr FORSBERG — Our council is made up of representatives from each community. They have monthly meetings and discuss problems, community events and what is happening in their communities.

Ms RAMAN — How are they elected?

Mr FORSBERG — They are nominated by their own community groups, and then they form the ethnic council. A board is then drawn from that ethnic council.

The CHAIRMAN — Just before our colleagues left, Vic was in full flight; would you like to continue?

Mr MATOTEK — We have a voting position on the Ethnic Communities Council of Victoria in our own right as regional representatives. There are a number of regional representatives; they come from Shepparton, the Latrobe Valley, Sunraysia, Geelong, and now there is a representative coming from Bendigo. The Bracks government has seen fit to fund regional representation on the ECCV by way of paying for our travelling and accommodation costs, which is certainly a plus. Over the years I took it on myself to get down to those meetings as an executive member of the ECCV, and we have regional representation at conferences, too. I attend all the Federation of Ethnic Communities Council of Australia conferences and any of the other conferences that the Victorian state body puts on. We are active both within Victoria and Australia. We feel we have to maintain those links in order for our communities to be part of any activities that come within that sector.

The CHAIRMAN — If you could make any suggestions to us about what small steps might help improve the delivery of services to your client base, what would those recommendations be?

Mr MATOTEK — We reach our communities pretty well. We have our community radio with its multicultural programs, and they are always very informative and well received by the communities. I dare say that is one avenue that could be explored to get across any information that comes from the state or federal governments or any of the service providers. It is usually the older members of the community who listen to the radio, and they do not miss it. If it is on for an hour on a Thursday, for example, they do not miss it. They get a little bit of the feeling of home, with the music and the comfort of almost being back in the old country.

The CHAIRMAN — What languages are the programs broadcast in, and do the programs rotate regularly each week or are there different segments?

Mr MATOTEK — The community radio broadcasts every night of the week from 7 o’clock until 10 o’clock, and then we have a rotation of programs. Mr FORSBERG — It is all languages. Each community has its own program.

The CHAIRMAN — In the Mildura precinct?

Mr MATOTEK — Yes. Some of them reach out as far as Robinvale. We get a lot of the news items from the SBS programs that are on the satellite through Comradsat. Because of the nature of the funding through the Community Broadcasting Foundation, 51 per cent of programs have to be of an information nature and the rest can be music, community events or whatever. The opportunity is there to get information through to the various communities through the required 51 per cent of information content programs.

The CHAIRMAN — That is one area; are there any other suggestions you would like to make to us?

Mr MATOTEK — That is probably the most direct. I do not know of any others.

Mr FORSBERG — Getting the communities together and getting consultation with them; something along those lines. We go out ourselves and visit the communities and clubs on a regular basis. When they have their meetings we visit them and pass on information. That could be used as another way of getting information to them.

Mr MATOTEK — The Victorian Multicultural Commission has been here a number of times, and we have had some seminars that have always been very well attended. That comes from the state; there is one avenue there.

Mr FORSBERG — Information and community languages is another one. That is the biggest one.

The CHAIRMAN — What would assist your communities to better access immigration advice or legal advice?

Mr FORSBERG —It would be pretty hard to provide an answer to that.

The CHAIRMAN — Are you familiar with videoconferencing? Has either of you seen that operate through the courts?

Mr FORSBERG — Yes, we do that a lot.

The CHAIRMAN — Could there be any strategic linkages between Mildura and Melbourne that could facilitate accessing Ukrainian-speaking lawyers or reputable Turkish-speaking immigration agents? Mr FORSBERG — That would work, but it has always been an expense as well.

The CHAIRMAN — Eighteen dollars for 15 minutes was mooted as a possible cost, which is in some ways comparatively cheap.

Mr FORSBERG — We were quoted about $75 an hour. Could we access that from the courthouse?

The CHAIRMAN — We are just looking at possibilities for recommendations.

Mr FORSBERG — That would be a possibility. To provide that information accurately would be good.

Ms HADDEN — Do you have access to video link-ups at the local TAFE institute?

Mr FORSBERG — We can use the TAFE facility, and there is one down at the hospital we can use as well. Whatever they charge, we usually link up with that system. With adult education we link up with TAFE; for health and human services we use the hospital.

Ms HADDEN — You do access those services?

Mr FORSBERG — Yes. So far as having immigration agents is concerned, it would be advisable for us to look into that and get expertise that way. Sometimes a licence does not really help. As I said, we refer more people than we actually help. The legal side of immigration law is pretty complicated and we would rather stay away from that and refer them to a group of solicitors or people they know in Melbourne. That seems to work quite well.

The CHAIRMAN — What is the history of your own family in Australia, going back a few generations?

Mr FORSBERG — My grandfather was Swedish. When my forebears came out to Australia they came out on the old sailing ships.

The CHAIRMAN — Thank you very much, gentlemen. I have had the privilege of enjoying the hospitality of Mr Matotek before and can thoroughly recommend him as a marvellous host in Mildura. I also commend you on the calibre of your submission. I regard the breadth and depth of your community work as outstanding. Mildura is very well served with people such as yourself acting as advocates and lateral thinkers. I wish you well in your future endeavours. Mr FORSBERG — We appreciate groups such as yours coming up here to listen to some of our rural complaints.

Mr MATOTEK — It gives us some confidence to know we are not forgotten and that we are still part of Victoria, although we are up at the top. It has only been in recent years that this sort of thing has happened and it is great to be included. Thank you.

Witnesses withdrew.