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Dutch Fehring, Paul Cardoza combined

Murphy: [0:00] OK folks, this is April 29th. We're having a little conversation with and Paul Cardoza here and rehashing some memories and just having fun talking about one another. [0:12] Dutch Fehring is with us and Dutch, first let's talk a little bit. You delighted me by sending me a picture of yourself with John Wooten and this year you and John sat together down at and watched Stanford defeat UCLA as a matter of fact and I love the picture a little note on it from you, a little note from John. Tell the folks a little bit. You guys were athletes at a place called West Lafayette Indiana. That goes back a few years coach.

Dutch Fehring: [0:44] It goes back to 1931-32. Actually, John went to high school in Martinsville, Indiana which is only 35 miles from my hometown of Columbus, Indiana. Up until my sophomore year in high school we always played a home and home each year but there was an altercation between a Martinsville boy named Reynolds and a Columbus boy named Gilfus that ended up in real serious problems so the principals decide to not play for a while. [1:26] So as a result I didn't get to play against John Wooten until I went to Purdue. Then as a freshman he was a junior, I got to practice against him a lot. We didn't have a freshman schedule at the time so most of our practices were scrimmages against the varsity. So that's when I really got to know John of course as a sophomore he was a senior. I got to play with him one year.

Murphy: [2:05] Well your friend Paul Cardoza is with you here today and we got to go back. Dutch of course came to Stanford we're going to cover that, but you and Dutch were in the travel business together and you led all kinds of Stanford tours to different parts of the country and I don't know who was the patron saint in this travel group [laughs] that you're in, but I know that the training methods were not always perfect.

Paul Cardoza: [2:28] Not exactly perfect, Bob. But we got along very well together with Dutch and Edna was an integral part of things for a while, too- Dutch's wife. We had a lot of success stories of friendships and things that just never dissolved, they've been there forever.

Murphy: [2:48] Well before we get through here today we're going to talk about our trips to Hawaii. We're going to talk about our trips to Michigan, our trips to Penn State and Army. We went to Army and we went to see Plunkett play his first game in the . We're going to get to that, Paul, but you're the guardian angel here so we'll get you in here every once in a while. Dutch you were at UCLA after the war. How about through the war and up to your time at UCLA? Can you tell the folks a little bit about that?

Fehring: [3:20] Well I graduated in Berkley in 1934 and spent part of the summer with the White Sox and had the offer to become the head freshman football, and baseball coach at Purdue, if I wanted it. That offer was made to me as a p.2

junior by my football coach and Noble Kaiser. [3:54] There was a terrible depression going on then. It was really hard to find employment. There were engineers and doctors selling apples on the street to make ends meet. So I had a chance to go to spring training with the White Sox the following year, but if I had done that I would have had to give up my coaching at Purdue. So I took a sure thing and for 10 years I stayed at Purdue and became the head baseball coach after three years and was coaching football varsity wise and it was a real nice set up for me.

[4:39] Then I went into the Navy and spent three years in the Navy and came back out and couldn't find a place for Edna and the girls to live in Lafayette. Everything was booked up. Purdue had some experimental homes from the company called Rusk Aide Construction Company, the same name as the . They were building homes that were pre-fabricated and they would build them in at the company and then bring the pieces out and put them up together. I had been promised one of those homes.

[5:27] About that time Tim Tatum, who I met at the University of Iowa when I was there in the Navy, had taken a job as of the . He called me and said, "Dutch I'd like for you to come down and help us with spring practice and bring enough clothes to stay for a month." So I went down and was there as an assistant coach and Chap Haskell whom I'd succeeded in the Navy in Seattle was the athletic director so it was like going into old home week for me.

Murphy: [6:08] Norman, Oklahoma Dutch. Norman Oklahoma. OK.

Fehring: [6:12] So they offered me a job as assistant football coach and I took it and spent two of the happiest years of my life in Norman, Oklahoma. Tatum left after the one year and went back to coach at Maryland and he wanted the whole staff to go with him. We also had an interview with the track coach at Cal who became the acting athletic director, Brutus Hamilton. Brutus interviewed our whole staff in New York City at a coach's meeting. [6:55] He said that if Lynn Waldorf doesn't take the job at Cal and I don't think he will, I'd like to offer your staff, your whole staff the job. Well, I'd always wanted to live in and I though well isn't this something.

Murphy: [7:13] Did you get to California in the Navy, Dutch?

Fehring: [7:16] I was stationed at Iowa preflight after indoctrination in North Carolina. Incidentally I was on watch duty with Ted Williams when he was a cadet down there and that was a thrill. From Iowa I was sent to San Diego and from San Diego, Bud Wilkinson and I were sent out at the same time. They had so many officers going through San Diego they didn't have enough Navy places for them so they took over a wing of the Del Coronado Hotel. Bud and I lived in one of the rooms down for about six weeks.

Murphy: [7:59] That's pretty good living, coach. That's pretty good living [laughter] .

Fehring: [8:02] That'll spoil you. One day I remember coming down that old elevator they had that went up to the third floor and came down slowly. A movie star, Claudette Colbert, and her husband who was a doctor in the Navy came down and I got to ride down the same elevator with her. That was really livin'. [8:32] But from there I was on a p.3 small carrier for a while. Then came back and became the athletic director at what is now Miramar Air Force Base which at that time was Camp Kearney. I thought sure that I'd be finishing my career there because the war had ended in August and now it's October.

[9:09] was the head of the program I was in for all of the West Coast, and he wanted to get out so he called me up one day. He said, "Dutch, I'm getting out and I'd like to recommend you for my job. There's a house connected with it."

[9:28] I said "Cas, I don't want to move." I said, "I've only got about three months left myself." And I had a nice place to live in San Diego County and was getting along fine. Two days later, I get my orders to go to Seattle. So, that's where I wound up, in Seattle.

Murphy: [9:47] Not quite the Coronado Hotel up there. [laughter]

Fehring: [9:50] No. But it was the Sand Point Naval Air Station, and they called it the Country Club of the Navy although I couldn't find a place with a family to live. They stayed in Carmel with my brother, Ted, and his family. I did have quite a bit of time in California when I was in the Navy. [10:14] I had a choice when I got out of indoctrination school in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I had a choice of one of six pre-flight schools, three of which were in California: St. Mary's, Del Monte and St. Mary's. Anyway, there were three of them.

Murphy: [10:39] Now, all those played football during the war, too.

Fehring: [10:41] Yes, they did.

Murphy: [10:42] They did. And Frankie Albert, as a matter of fact, played at St. Mary's Pre-Flight.

Fehring: [10:45] Right. And Billy Alhouse played baseball there. That's how he got the bug for California.

Murphy: [10:52] Billy Alhouse, of course, a long time assistant to Dutch at Stanford baseball, and he's got quite a name for himself here.

Fehring: [10:59] He really is. So, I never dreamed when I was in the Navy that I'd ever have a chance to work at Stanford.

Murphy: [11:13] What led you to UCLA, Dutch? Tell us about that.

Fehring: [11:16] Well, our middle daughter, Ann, had asthma so badly in Oklahoma that it was due to the sand. The Cimarron River makes a big u-turn down in the southwest at Norman and the prevailing wind just blows that sand, especially in the summer time right all over Norman. So, Ann had this terrible asthma. I can remember Edna rocking her at night, and she would be as blue as her eyes are. The doctor said, if you have a chance to go to a moist climate this might clear her up. [12:00] Well, about that time Bert LaBrucherie was the main speaker at the Oklahoma Football Coaches Clinic, and I met Bert then and he had an opening on his staff and offered me the job. I went out and interviewed for it and took it. p.4

Murphy: [12:19] Oh boy.

Fehring: [12:20] And so, that's how I got to UCLA.

Murphy: [12:22] How about--who was down there then? I remember Al Hoisch played at Stanford and then was he down at UCLA about that time? Yeah. Al Hoisch started up here at Stanford.

Fehring: [12:30] Yeah. Al played halfback. Some of the players-- became athletic director and football coach at Hawaii and, I think, Oregon State; Diandros and his brother. I'm getting them mixed up now with Oklahoma. Tom Fehrs was there. Bob Waterfield was there.

Murphy: [13:01] Those are some names.

Fehring: [13:02] And the coach at UOP, played fullback, Meyers, "Moose" Meyers.

Murphy: [13:10] "Moose" Meyers, Jack Meyers, sure.

Fehring: [13:13] He was there. John Nicksovich who worked for when he was with the 49ers.

Murphy: [13:24] But, Dutch, you were there and Wilbur Johns was the basketball coach. And he was moving up to athletic director and somehow you got involved. You kind of stuck your nose in that deal. Tell them what happened. [laughs]

Fehring: [13:37] Well, Wilbur had already assumed the job as athletic director, and he was trying to get somebody to take over his job as basketball coach. And I read in the paper where Slaski over at Oregon State turned him down and Tippy Dye at Washington turned him down. So, I went into Wilbur's office one day and I said, "Wilbur, I see that you're having a touch time finding a basketball coach." [14:05] He said, "Yeah".

[14:05] I said, "I'd like to recommend a man I think would do a good job for you."

[14:10] He said, "Who is he?"

[14:11] I said, "Well, his name is ." He said, "Where is he?"

[14:15] I said, "He's at Indiana State Teachers College in Terre Haute, Indiana."

[14:20] He said, "Let's get him on the phone." So we called John. John came out and Wilbur fell in love with John. This is the guy we want, but I don't think he'll come. I think the place is too big for him here.

[14:33] But John went back and then a couple of days later he accepted the job. John told me later that if Nelly hadn't had asthma, as my daughter had, and had been advised by a doctor to get out here, he probably wouldn't have taken the job. [laughs]

Murphy: [14:52] So, you should have been an agent on that one, coach. You should have gotten 10 percent of that deal. And then, it wasn't long after that that you headed up p.5

north yourself and I first remember you as being on 's staff. Chuck replaced Margie Schwartz; 1950 was that year, '51 . That was quite a year. [15:12] Tell the folks about that because the first I knew about you was I lived with Bill McCall and Gary Krekorian and Harry Ukashon and Dick Abraham and Bill Storum and Al Kirkland and all of these guys on that '51 Rose Bowl team. And all they talked about were the fabulous scout reports that you did as an assistant on Chuck Taylor's staff. Can you tell the folks a little bit about that?

Fehring: [15:37] Well, when I was at UCLA I got fired, the only time I ever got fired in my life. And it shook me up so much that it made me bitter. John Wooden came out and wanted me to help him in his practices. I was so fed up with UCLA and the demonstrations they had every time I walked into the gate, I didn't want any part of it any more. [16:11] I had two opportunities to stay professionally in athletics. One was working in a sweater making outfit, a lettermen sweater where I would have been going around to the high schools and selling them lettermen's sweaters. That name was called BudOne.

[16:35] And the other one was Rawlings Sporting Goods Company wanted a PR man to handle the territory from Bakersfield, California north to the Canadian border back down through Idaho and so on. This kind of appealed to me because it kept my foot in athletics, but at the same time I didn't have the pressures of coaching.

[17:11] I didn't have to worry about some kid dropping a pass or anything like that. But the only bad part of it was that I would have had to have made two six-week trips each year just going around to the various schools and not selling but just going in and saying, "Can we do anything for you" and stuff like that.

[17:30] After that time Everett Dean, who was the basketball coach at Stanford and who was becoming the head baseball coach, called me and said, "Dutch, I'm bringing the team down to Los Angeles. I'd like to talk to you." So, I always liked Everett. Everett was a coach at Indiana University when I was a high school student in Columbus, Indiana, 40 miles away. If there had been a different football coach at Indiana, I probably would have gone there rather than to Purdue because I liked Everett Dean. I thought he was a wonderful man and a wonderful coach.

[18:10] But, anyway, Everett said, "I'd like to talk to you." So, he was staying with his team down at the old Shetland Park Hotel where we used to stay, and I went to see Everett. Everett said, "I'm going to take over baseball starting next spring, and I'm going to keep basketball. So, there's an overlap of seasons here, and I'd like to have you consider handling baseball until basketball is over. And then go out for spring practice and stay with spring practice through the fall."

[18:49] This worked out fine for me. I was interested in both sports. Marcie Schwartz was the head football coach. He made me feel welcome as did Al Masters, Don Leibendorfer. Oddly enough, I had spent summers here in 1938, '39, '40 and '41 while going to summer school and never dreamed that I'd ever be asked to work here. I learned at the time what a delightful place it is to live. p.6

[19:22] In fact, Everett Dean in his 16 years he spent here, he never spent a summer at Stanford. He owned a farm and his wife's parents owned a farm. They had to go back to Indiana and run those farms in the summer time. I'd move in their home up here. This worked out great.

Murphy: [19:41] Orleans, Indiana; is that Salem or Orleans, Indiana?

Fehring: [19:44] It's between both.

Murphy: [19:46] It's actually nowhere. [laughs]

Fehring: [19:49] His mailing address was Orleans, Indiana. Salem was a town where Everett started and owned a bank. I forget the name--Indiana State Bank or something like that.

Murphy: [20:02] Dutch, a word or two on Chuck Taylor coming in coaching at Stanford, 31 years old at that time. Pete Kmetovic, George Lynn, Joe Ritz, a remarkable coaching staff and just playing their way right into the Rose Bowl that first year. What a year that was! Tell the folks about that.

Fehring: [20:21] Well, Chuck was an optimist. If you'd ask him, how are you going to do this week, coach? Well, we're going to win. He said that 10 straight weeks, and we won nine of them.

Murphy: [20:36] The writers couldn't believe it when he said it. They couldn't write that down fast enough, could they? [20:39] Fehring. That's right. And if you recall, this is the first time that they ever had the offensive and defensive teams. In all that time we had the best players playing both ways. So, anyway, Chuck had a decision to make as to who was going to be on offense and who's on defense.

[21:05] I was assigned their defense along with George Lynn, and Chuck, bless his heart, he was a great offensive mind, but defense kind of bothered him a little bit. He didn't care much about that, so George and I had the privilege of setting up pretty much of the defense that we wanted to use which we did. And we had some great ball players. We had Al Kirkland and Jimmy Chuckesegian and...

Murphy: [21:43] Jack Wright, could he play end? Could he play end or what?

Fehring: [21:46] Yeah. Jack unfortunately had a pinched nerve in his neck that was very painful when he'd get hit in the wrong way. But he was tough. He was really tough.

Murphy: [21:59] Ted Tanner, linebacker.

Fehring: [22:01] Ted Tanner, but they were... Dick Horn. You know Dick Horn came as a...

Murphy: [22:08] How bout as a out of Santa Monica High School was an all time big time quarterback and then he went over to defense with Gary Cocoruian. They were two fraternity brothers and Dick Horn became an outstanding defensive back. p.7

Fehring: [22:20] Dick Horn was being recruited when I was on the staff of UCLA. In fact, I tried to get Dick Horn to go to UCLA. [22:30] We talk about this every time we see each other. But, How glad that he didn't go to UCLA. But, I remember Burt Laburchre talking to Dick and saying, you know you're going to have some competition up there in Cocoruian. And Dick said OK I'll beat him out. And he felt that way. But, if you recall the year we went to the Rose Bowl, We were playing Oregon down here.

[22:59] And Dick Horn is the only man who is going to save the guy from going about 75 yards for a touchdown. And he played it smart. He didn't try to go up and get him right now. He gave and gave and gave territory until he had 'em pinned up against the sideline and nailed him. If he hadn't made that tackle we would have never beaten Oregon and we wouldn't have ever gone to the Rose Bowl.

Murphy: [23:25] Oh that's a great memory, Dutch. Now, I think it was that next spring and you were sitting in for Everett and I was trying to play baseball. I was trying to pitch and trying to get guys out. And I remember we took the Daylight and went right down to the station right here at the foot of Palm Drive. And got on the Daylight and had a nice little train ride down to Santa Barbara. It was fun. [23:47] And then we were going to play Santa Barbara, but something was wrong with the ballpark in Santa Barbara. So we went down to play them in Ventura. And, if I remember that ball park at Ventura, if there hadn't been a right field fence, the ocean would have lapped up right over the field. The ocean was on the other side of the right field fence. The fog was in there. Murphy was pitching. And, Murphy had a little difficulty that night Dutch. You do recall, don't you?

[24:14] [laughter]

Fehring: [24:15] I remember getting off the train at four o'clock in the afternoon. We were met by Spud Harder who was the athletic director and baseball coach at Santa Barbara. He said I hope you don't mind our field isn't ready and we're going to have to move it down to Victory Field in Ventura. [24:39] I said well if you say OK we'll accept it OK. There was a Stanford alumnus that had a 12-year-old son that met us at the train and wanted to know if his son could be the bat boy. And I thought yeah sure we'd love to have him. In the fourth inning his father touched me on the shoulder and the score I think was ...

Murphy: [25:06] It was a football score. [laughter] It was 18 to 13 or something like that. [laughter]

Fehring: [25:11] I know it was twenty after eleven going on midnight and we're in the fourth inning. [laughter] And the father said any chance of calling this ball game. And I said I sure wish there was but there wasn't of course. But...

Murphy: [25:26] [laughs] Murphy was walking a few guys. When he didn't walk them, they were ripping it and it was a field day. Wasn't it?

Fehring: [25:36] The conditions were the worst I've ever seen not to have been in a rainstorm. It didn't rain. It was just fog coming in over the ocean. Every ball that went to the outfield you could see the water coming up off the training of it. Jack Shepard was p.8

playing left field. I don't know how many ground balls he had to pick up you know and throw.

Murphy: [26:00] I think a few might have gone over his head, too. [laughs] And we were going down to play 'SC is what we were doing. This was not exactly the way you want to get ready to play the Trojans down there at Bovart.

Fehring: [26:11] That's for sure. I remember we stayed in a hotel on the main street of Santa Barbara. And this was my first time with any of you guys. I've got to make an impression here. I've got to let you guys know that this isn't a cakewalk, you know. So anyway, I called a meeting. And you're sitting on the stage, reading a newspaper.

Murphy: [26:43] San Francisco Call Bulletin, as I remember. [laughs]

Fehring: [26:46] Could have been. But anyway, I cleared my throat a couple of times and tried to get your attention. And you just kept right on reading. And pretty soon I said "Mr. Murphy, would you please put that paper down?" And you turned around and looked at me like who in the hell was this guy, telling me what to do? So that was my first meeting and I don't think it went very well.

Murphy: [27:14] Dutch, I've improved, honestly. I mean that was one of the big lessons in my life, to treat you with obviously more respect. I'm really sorry about not being able to get anybody out in Ventura that night. It was a painful night for all of us. But things got better for you, because you coached baseball for a number of years here. You had that great World Series team in 1967. A lot of great players. What memories.

Fehring: [27:39] Yes. There's going to be an article in tomorrow's Daily comparing that team, my last team, with the team that's currently here. And I'm anxious to read it because he's going to interview several of the ballplayers, like Sandy Vance and anyone else he can find.

Murphy: [28:05] Good guy, Sandy Vance. He knew how to pitch a little bit, didn't he?

Fehring: [28:08] Yes, he had all the makings of a major league player. Unfortunately, in one of the summers he was pitching in the Dominican Republic, I think, and hurt his arm and never did get to realize the potential he had. But he could throw hard and he was a good pitcher.

Murphy: [28:35] Well, your buddy Paul Cardoza is here. And Paul, I want to go back to when we first started those trips. Gosh that goes back a lot of years now. And you were enlightened, I think. You had the idea that if Stanford people liked to watch Stanford play ay Stanford Stadium maybe they'd like to watch Stanford play in Ann Arbor, or at Army at Nike Stadium or maybe in Honolulu. Boy we took some trips, didn't we?

Cardoza: [29:00] We had some great trips, Bob. You know how it all got started was Dick O'Connor suggested to me that we do something and we tried one going down to UCLA and it just bombed. And the next year I decided well I'll put something together for a couple of games and we did. The following was small at first, and then it began to p.9

pick up. [29:26] And Stanford is a funny place. It's not like Notre Dame or Oklahoma or USC. The fans here are pretty independent-minded. And they're hesitant about getting involved in a group situation. But once they've gone on these trips, they seem to like it. They like being cared for, they like...

Murphy: [29:52] Beverages.

Cardoza: [29:54] Ah, yes.

Murphy: [29:54] And you and Dutch teamed up along the way. Tell them how that happened.

Cardoza: [29:59] Well, Dutch came into my office and he was retiring from Stanford. Dutch, what year was that?

Fehring: [30:07] That was 1977.

Cardoza: [30:11] Dutch came into my office. And he said "I understand you do football tours for Stanford." [30:19] And I said "Yes."

[30:21] He said "Well, I'm thinking about doing that also, and I've been talking to Bob Tennyson." And I think that I said something like Bob Tennyson is wonderful guy. You can't go wrong working with Bob Tennyson. He owned Bungy Travel. He's a Stanford biz school grad and he's just a great guy. And Dutch went back and talked to Bob Tennyson, and I guess Bob Tennyson didn't have too much evil to say about me.

Murphy: [30:51] Obviously he didn't know you very well. [laughs]

Cardoza: [30:53] That's true. So Dutch said that he'd like top come to work with us, and it worked out just wonderfully. Things happened that were just incredible. Dutch is pretty frugal. And we've done things, we've stayed at upscale hotels. Most of the time we try to do things in an upscale manner. And Dutch was a little leery about this. He was thinking we ought to ...

Murphy: [31:27] He was, if you want to be honest about it, Dutch, you were a little leery about Cardoza, right? I mean. you'd seen him operate, right?

Fehring: [31:34] No, I didn't know Paul. All I knew about Paul was that Zeckler told me that he had talked to Paul two weeks before I came to him and told him that he would have the first shot at the book club business. So I really didn't know Paul at all.

Murphy: [32:01] What a shock this must have been for you. Was it? [laughs]

Cardoza: [32:04] Was it?

Fehring: [32:05] I was really impressed. I don't know how many he had working for him then, but it was the biggest travel agency that I had ever seen. And all of them were busy and all of them seemed to be enjoying themselves. So that was really a break for me to be able to leave Stanford. Even before I was retired down there, I was working for Paul. p.10

Murphy: [32:33] Well you guys kind of partnered up. I remember Paul taking the group over to Hawaii.

Cardoza: [32:37] Oh yes.

Murphy: [32:38] That was a wonderful trip. I always kid Eric Cross about that. Because Mike Burillo was the quarterback and Eric was standing in a position where he could be the all-time Stanford receiver for one game; he had caught 13 balls as I recall. I always kid him. He caught the fourteenth for an eight yard loss. But he did catch 14; nobody had ever caught 14 before. [laughs] [33:01] If I remember correctly, he ran off triumphantly, that was the old stadium in Hawaii. And then I remember, too, taking the group back to see Stanford play Army. This was the season of 1971. And it was interesting. You can't even do this now, Dutch, but you could continue because Stanford wasn't in session.

[33:21] So we went back and played Missouri in Columbia, Missouri. That was the night that Dan Elliott drank the fire blossom or whatever that drink was that exploded on him. Set himself on fire. [laughs] Beat Missouri, as I recall, 19 to nothing and then went on for Army, to play Army the next week.

[33:44] And the kids went and stayed at Bear Mountain and had a wonderful time getting ready for Army. Beat Army. And then you and I took the group all the way down to...

Fehring: [33:55] To Foxborough.

Murphy: [33:55] To Foxborough to watch Jim Plunkett and Randy Vataha play their first game in , at Foxborough Stadium. Tell the folks about that. That was a real thrill.

Cardoza: [34:05] Well it was unbelievable. They weren't given the chance of a snowball in Hades of winning that game. And they were playing the Oakland Raiders, and they were big time. They came up and won the game. And it was a pitch and catch contest between Plunkett and Vataha. It was unbelievable. And nobody thought Vataha could make it in the NFL because of his size, and he just proved everybody dead wrong.

Murphy: [34:42] How about that crowd after that game? Because we went down there to visit with Jim and Randy, and thousands of people just jammed around that clubhouse.

Cardoza: [34:51] No question about it. And the graciousness of Jim Plunkett when he came out, actually, to pay respects to you after the game. And I remember when he gave you a watch that said, "To the guy who makes winners."

Murphy: [35:11] [laughs] You're right. You're exactly right, and I still have that watch, too, as a matter of fact. [35:14] What I do remember too, on the way back you had beverages on the bus, Dutch. I do remember this distinctly. Lots of beverages on the bus, and then you-I don't know whether you came across the George Washington Bridge or were headed toward the airport, and some of the people on the bus were feeling a little discomfort, and you were going to have to make a stop. Do you recall that?

Cardoza: [35:35] Oh, Murphy. Vividly! p.11

Murphy: [35:41] This was one of your awkward moments. You're going to tell the story, and you're going to tell it in a wonderful, beautiful manner.

Cardoza: [35:49] We stopped to pay the toll, and every male on the bus got off, and went over to this chain link fence and Murphy's casual remark was, "It looks like a 22-stall men's room." [laughs]

Murphy: [36:07] That's about what it was. Now this had a bad effect on the ladies who were present.

Cardoza: [36:15] We got into town, and, I'm not sure what section we're in in New York City.

Murphy: [36:20] You were at about 198th Street, I know that. [laughs]

Cardoza: [36:23] Yes. I think it was Brooklyn area, wasn't it?

Murphy: [36:26] Harlem.

Cardoza: [36:27] Harlem area. And we stopped at a bar that honest to God, it just looked awful, but the ladies really needed the facilities. And I went in and said, "I have a busload of people here. Could we possibly use your facilities?" And this guy said, "They ain't much." [laughs]

Murphy: [36:50] Better than a chain link fence, though. [laughs]

Cardoza: [36:52] Absolutely. And so I said to the bartender, I'd like to buy everybody-there were about ten people there-I said, I'd like to buy everybody a drink, soften the blow here. And the ladies came in to use both the men's and women's room. [37:10] This big burly guy walks up to me and says, "Where you from?"

[37:17] I said, "We're from California, and..."

[37:19] He said, "What are you doing here?"

[37:21] "We're here, we came out to see the Stanford-Army football game."

[37:25] "Nobody flies from California to see a football game!" [laughs]

[37:31] "Yes, we did. And we're here."

[37:34] He said, "Well, you're not buying us a drink!"

[37:38] I thought, why did I get on the bad side of this guy?

[37:41] He said, "We're buying your whole bus a drink!" [laughs]

Murphy: [37:46] You make friends everywhere you go! He does, doesn't he Dutch? He makes friends everywhere. p.12

Fehring: [37:51] He does. He really does.

Murphy: [37:55] So you're still doing it. You're still taking guys on trips and you threatened to leave town and nobody would let you go. So you're hanging around.

Cardoza: [38:01] I'm going to stay around. I really had planned to move back to Missouri. It was a female thing. My two little granddaughters were just attracting me. They were like a magnet. But my oldest son lives in China and convinced me that it would probably be better to stay here with my friends, and so did my son John in Missouri. [38:27] So now I'm just going to make a lot more trips back there and not be a pain in the neck to everybody.

Murphy: [38:33] So you and Dutch are still partners. Partners for life. That's the way it is.

Cardoza: [38:36] That's the way it is. We're joined at the hip.

Murphy: [38:38] [laughs] Dutch, this has been really fun visiting with you. Is this an experience for you to relive all these great memories?

Fehring: [38:49] I've been so lucky. Not only to have had a wonderful wife and three wonderful girls and eight grandchildren and two great grandchildren, but to be able to work at a place like Stanford for almost 30 years, to have been able to buy a house. When we came, if I moved in today, I wouldn't be able to afford that house we live in. [39:27] So I've been very fortunate in family life, professional life. Where else would I meet a guy like you, for example?

Murphy: [39:38] Well, I don't read papers like that anymore, Dutch. If I read papers, I go away quietly and sit some place where nobody comes in. I read the paper that way. It's better, isn't it?

Fehring: [39:50] Paul brought up a point. My thinking about the travel business, before I went to work for them was to get there as fast as we could and get back as soon as we could. And I've spent a lot of money on hotels and food and stuff like that. Paul told me that that isn't the way...that Stanford wants to travel.

Murphy: [40:13] There are other considerations.

Fehring: [40:16] And he really, I think this is the best tour leader in the world. [40:26] I've had the opportunity to go on a lot of tours with companies, and I've compared how they handle themselves. And Paul, he gives you so much more for your money. And you remembered a lot more. And it's a lot more interesting as you're living through it than the the others.

Murphy: [40:50] Dutch, you'll remember this like I do, going back a number of years ago. I think it was 1969, I think the year before Stanford went to the Rose Bowl against Ohio State. One of the greatest football games ever played was played at Ross-Ade Stadium at Purdue. [41:05] Jack Mollenkopf was the coach. Mike Phipps was the quarterback for Purdue. Jim Plunkett was the quarterback for Stanford, and if I remember p.13

correctly, both of them threw for over 400 yards that day. And Purdue, the Boilermakers won it, if I can just remember off the top of my head, 38 - 36. It was one of the greatest football games ever, one of the greatest passing exhibitions ever in . Do you remember it well?

Fehring: [41:29] I sure do. I had scouted Purdue, and I was back for the game. The Purdue boy who caught the two point conversion that beat us by two points later came to Stanford, and he got a law degree. And I got him a place to live with Hoot Gibson. He was their cook for a couple of years while he went to...I don't know what happened to him, but he was the guy who caught the two-point conversion that beat us.

Murphy: [42:05] That was a great day of college football. Hoot Gibson you just mentioned, one of our dear old pals, was the longtime leader of the Stanford Research Institute.

Fehring: [42:13] Right.

Murphy: [42:15] Dutch, thanks for joining us today. Really appreciate it, pal.

Fehring: [42:17] My pleasure. Nice to be with you, Robert.

Murphy: [42:20] And you notice I didn't even bring a newspaper here today. Not even going to talk about it. [42:25] Paul, thanks for joining us, and you're kind of a caretaker, a senior...we used to call them in school a "prefective discipline." You're keeping Dutch in line.

Cardoza: [42:34] I'm trying. He's tough, but I'm trying. One of the things I wanted to mention before was, when we first got into this, Dutch said to me-we were going to New Orleans-and he said, "Do you mind if I invite Hank Schram to our party? It's going to cost a little extra money." [42:54] I said, "Heavens, Dutch. To have a person like Hank Schram come visit us would just be marvelous. Let's go with it."

Murphy: [43:04] So Dutch is learning how to spend money because he hangs around you.

Cardoza: [43:07] That's it. [43:09] Thank you very much, Bob.

Murphy: [43:10] All right guys, thank you all. That is Paul Cardoza and the wonderful Dutch Fehring. Thank you, guys. [43:16] [cuts off]

Transcription by CastingWords