Transcript of Oral History Interview with Dave Jansen

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Oral history interviews of the Vietnam Era Oral History Project

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Version 3 August 20, 2018

David Jansen Narrator

Douglas Bekke Interviewer

April 16, 2018 Bemidji, Minnesota

Douglas Bekke —DB David Jansen —DJ

DB: Minnesota Historical Society Vietnam Oral History Project interview with Dave Jansen. In Bemidji Minnesota on 16 April 2018. Mr. Jansen can you please say and spell your name?

DJ: David L. Jansen. D-a-v-i-d L J-a-n-s-e-n.

DB: And your birthdate?

DJ: I was born October 30, 1949.

DB: And where were you born?

DJ: I was born here, in Bemidji.

DB: Okay.

DJ: The old Lutheran hospital.

DB: Okay. And what do you know about your ancestry?

DJ: I know that both — on my father’s side, my grandmother and grandfather both came from Holland and settled in Stearns County — where the land is flat like Holland. And on my mother’s side, French and German.

DB: Did you know your grandparents?

DJ: I did. I knew all of them.

DB: And did they influence your life? Did you have good relations with them?

DJ: My grandfather on my maternal side lived up here when I was a child so I spent a lot time with them — a lot of fishing. And hunting, and — my grandfather on my dad’s side was well

educated and had a library in his home. He had a farm, but he didn’t do much farm work. His kids did it and — hired people

DB: That was in Stearns County?

DJ: Right. And other than that I guess I’d like to know more but — I have a old newspaper from Holland when my grandfather went back to visit. Actually it’s from Brooten, MN and it describes his trip. And I have some of his books that are in Dutch that I’ve kept.

DB: And did you spend a lot of time on that farm? In Stearns County?

DJ: I did stay there in the summer usually for a couple weeks every year and did a lot of help with bailing and picking rocks — that kind of thing. And yeah, I enjoyed my time on both farms.

DB: Did you have a lot of cousins that you were playing with — or working with?

DJ: Well, I did. My —

DB: Or brothers and sisters?

DJ: I have one brother and one sister — both younger. But I had a lot of cousins. My dad’s — had fourteen siblings and my mom had seven, so. I think counted once up 150-some cousins, so.

DB: Very big family.

DJ: Right. I’ve lost track of most of them now. One was killed in Vietnam.

DB: And we’ll talk about that when we get into Vietnam.

DJ: Okay.

DB: Yeah — yeah. Did you have — did you have particular memories of working with them or playing with them on the farms? Or up here in Bemidji? Hunting? Fishing?

DJ: I have a lot of good memories — there’s little lakes that my grandfather took me to that I still go to and I took my kids to. And I hunted deer in some of the same places that my grandfather took me hunting. My mom was the oldest in her family so her younger brothers weren’t that much older than me. So I was close to them and they took me hunting a lot and fishing.

DB: So you developed a passion early on for the outdoors?

DJ: I did. My father really wasn’t outdoors — he wasn’t really outdoorsy. He — he preferred to build things with his hands and read. I guess I do those things too, but —

DB: A carpenter? That kind of work or welding?

DJ: Yeah, he liked building picnic tables and he built toy furniture for my sister when she was little. Made it look just like the real thing, only miniature. And he was a hard worker, but he just really didn’t care for hunting. When he was a boy it was during the Depression and they hunted rabbits a lot. One of his friends — a neighbor boy — was shot and killed on a hunting trip and I think that probably had something to do with why my dad didn’t like hunting very much.

DB: And your grandmother’s — did you have a lot of contact with them?

DJ: I did. I was very close with my maternal grandmother especially. Oh because I stayed up here a lot in the summers and — in Blackduck, they lived on a farm in Blackduck. I was very close to her — she was actually my godmother as well as my grandmother. Both of my grandmothers made all their homemade bread and canned everything from the garden — kind of a lifestyle that’s gone now, but (laughs).

DB: Yeah, yeah. Did you have electricity? Indoor plumbing and everything up here when you’d visit? A lot of that didn’t come in until — sometimes even in the mid-50s.

DJ: At both of my grandparents — when I was younger — they both had outdoor pumps and outhouses. And then as I grew older over the years my grandparents in Stearns County had a bathroom put into their home. My grandparents here moved from the farm into the town of Blackduck where they did have indoor plumbing. They bought the theatre in Blackduck — the movie theatre. And — so then they had plumbing and all the modern conveniences.

DB: Did you — did you ever work at the theatre? Of did you just —

DJ: I did — I helped clean and I sold popcorn, that kind of thing when I was up here.

DB: Make a little money?

DJ: Yeah, not much though (Both laugh). Actually — oh I forgot what I was gonna say, but —

DB: Working in the theatre — making popcorn —

DJ: Yeah, my uncle ran the — he was the projectionist and that was in the old days with the big arch-light. They’d have two projectors and the film would — there’d be a mark on the film and that was time to start the other projector, so they’d phase — so there wouldn’t be a break in the movie. They had a — in the theatre then they had a what they called a cry room. It was a room where parents could take children that were making too much noise and disturbing the other — the other patrons. But I don’t think they exists anymore anywhere. They even had one in the church back then too.

DJ: So I was baptized in Blackduck and I spent more time there than I did in the Stearns County farm. But— I was close with all my grandparents. They all passed away after Vietnam.

DB: Were you baptized Lutheran? Catholic —

DJ: Catholic.

DB: Catholic, okay.

DJ: Right, yeah.

DB: And — and your mother? Did you have a good, close relationship with your mother?

DJ: My mother is still alive. She’s eighty-seven and she lives in elderly apartments in Bemidji, which used to be the Lutheran hospital where I was born. They converted it in the last few years to other apartments.

DB: Any — and — and maybe you already mentioned this but where did your parents live? Did they live in town? Or did they live — they lived in Stearns County?

DJ: They both lived in Stearns County when they met, but my mother moved up and stayed in Blackduck with my grandparents when she was pregnant and my father was looking for work in the Twin Cities. So they both grew up on farms but they — like a lot of that generation moved to the Cities and got better jobs —

DB: So did you grow up in Minneapolis?

DJ: I actually grew up in Inver Grove Heights.

DB: Okay.

DJ: Just south of uh South St. Paul and St. Paul. And at that time it was a rural area.

DB: Wasn’t a — dense suburb yet?

DJ: No, it wasn’t — we actually raised sheep and chickens and had a —

DB: Kind of a hobby farm?

DJ: A hobby farm right.

DB: And what did your dad do?

DJ: My dad was a — he was a meat cutter — a butcher for Swift and Company.

DB: In South St. Paul?

DJ: In South St. Paul. And my mom worked at West Publishing, where they published the law books and the Congressional record and so forth.

DB: And what do you remember from school — from grade school?

DJ: Well, grade school was small. The principle was also the sixth grade teacher — they didn’t have separate principles back then. It was a good school. It was called Salem Hills. And it was fairly new because that area was just starting to grow from farms to more family housing.

DB: One classroom per grade — pretty much?

DJ: One — yeah one per grade. And I remember that — I wasn’t the best athlete so I didn’t get picked for teams very often, but —

DB: Let’s stay in grade school a little bit.

DJ: Oh, that’s what I mean (laughs) —

DB: Oh, okay you mean grade school —

DJ: At lunch time, they’d play football or something — but I enjoyed doing it anyways. Had fun and I made a friend there in third grade that is still a really close friend. See him regularly and we eventually married sisters.

DB: Did you have any favorite subject?

DJ: Oh well, I liked art. They didn’t actually have an art class, but you’d have some art time usually. A friend of mine in grade school, his father was a commercial artist for a — a greeting card company and he also did some work for playboy magazine — airbrushing — that kind of thing. So we were always in competition in grade school —

DB: To see who could draw the best?

DJ: Right! And one time we were all doing paintings and I painted a deer, and he painted a deer, and he let me take it home. I showed it to my dad and asked him which one was better and he picked my friends (Both laugh). So I was pretty disappointed in that. I’ve still remembered, so (laughs). But he was right now that I look back — his was better, but —

DB: Well, he had a father who was an artist so I guess he had a little bit of a he — heads up on you.

DJ: Right — yeah he had more tools that’s for sure.

DB: Yeah — yeah, yeah. Had your father served in World War II?

DJ: He served in Korea after World War II and right before the Korean War.

DB: So he went in —

DJ: Occupation Force.

DB: So he went in after you were born? Into Korea?

DJ: Uh — he was there right before I was born — so he was an occupier.

DB: Occupy — not the Korean War? He was there in the occupation of Korea?

DJ: Right, he wasn’t in the war

DB: Okay, okay. So he had that middle period.

DJ: Right. A few years between the wars.

DB: Okay. Did he ever talk about his military service?

DJ: Not very much but he did have his old uniforms and some different souvenirs and things he brought back. He had his bible that his mom gave him when he went. And I have that still. Lots of Korean money — you know — and a few photos.

DB: So, no strong military traditions in your family?

DJ: I don’t know. My Dad, all of his brothers — most of them were in World War II. They were older than him. And they — you know, they were very encouraging to me — about going in, even though I was drafted they were supportive —

DB: We’ll come back to that.

DJ: Okay.

DB: Try to remember to come back to that when we get up to that point about going in the service. So, you went through grade school — junior high comes along?

DJ: Junior high was near my home — about a mile. It was Simley — Simley High School, but at that time it was — all one school, seventh through twelfth grade. My class was the first class to go all the way through it. It was a brand new school, so.

DB: So now you’re in a much bigger school than the grade school.

DJ: Right. But a lot of people I knew were with me so —

DB: So it wasn’t a— particularly uncomfortable situation going in this next step? You were surrounded by people you knew?

DJ: Right. Yeah I had a lot of the same friends. It wasn’t really that large of a school — there was only — I think my class only had about eighty or ninety people in it, something like that.

DB: So, it’s a mile away — how did you get to school?

DJ: Well, I took the bus a lot at first, but I also —

DB: Public bus or a school bus?

DJ: School bus. But I also walked sometimes or walked home, because it wasn’t really that far — especially to football games and things like that. My parents, you know, didn’t always give me a ride or weren’t always able to, so I did some walking and biking.

DB: Did — you’ve — you had an interest in art from an early age —

DJ: Right.

DB: Did — was this larger school able to facilitate that more? Or did you have — did you develop other interests in junior high and high school?

DJ: Well it — just before high school, in sixth grade I started playing trombone and so through junior high and high school I was involved in music, and marching band, and concert band, and also in choir. There wasn’t really — one of the — the teacher that taught drafting and mechanical drawing, he taught art as well. He wasn’t officially an art teacher, but we did get to do art projects and I learned some things.

DB: So he had a meaningful program —

DJ: Right.

DB: Where he could — you could learn some things.

DJ: Right.

DB: Okay.

DJ: We didn’t have like kilns and potters wheels and stuff, but we had paints and that kind of thing.

DB: And that was — painting was primarily your ma — painting was your main interest?

DJ: That’s what I liked the most, yeah. Painting.

DB: And they could facilitate that in the school?

DJ: Right.

DB: Okay. And — and any other subjects that caught your interest? History? Math? Science?

DJ: I liked history a lot and — English. English literature — I liked English and — I liked shop — I liked it all really. Actually I can — I can say my junior high and high school experience was really pretty good.

DB: What kind of shop classes did they have?

DJ: They had metal shop and wood shop. I took both of those and — learned how to weld and how to use a table saw, and you know.

DB: What kind of projects did the kids work on in those days? In the shop classes?

DJ: Well we made tables — end tables and that kind of thing. Butcher block — on the lathe and in metal shop we also we made like little lawn furniture with the scroll metal and that kind of thing. And we made a game too that was popular at the time — where there’s three pegs and the pieces diminish in size and you try to move them all from one peg to the other, one at a time. I think — I can’t remember the name of it, but I think it’s an Indian game from India, actually — initially. But we made them and sold them to raise money for — for shop class.

DB: But — they engaged you in meaningful projects?

DJ: They did. Yeah.

DB: You got a lot of satisfaction out of it?

DJ: I did. I met my future wife in high school, actually.

DB: And — when did you start dating?

DJ: Uh — I didn’t really start — I suppose maybe when I was about sixteen or so.

DB: About the time you learn — you get your driver’s license?

DJ: Right.

DB: Funny how that —

DJ: Right it does (laughs).

DB: Coincides, isn’t it (laughs).

DJ: I mean I had gone to — you know kids had parties and stuff, you know. I think my father took me and a date, dropped us off at a school dance and that kind of thing. But — once you have your driver’s license that changes things quite a bit.

DB: And how did you learn to drive? Did you learn on the farms in the summers?

DJ: Well, yeah we did learn somewhat on the farms because they had old trucks and things. You could drive around in the fields and you know the field roads. So, I did partially learn there and then my dad taught me. Inver Grove Heights was the country — our road was a gravel road when I was a kid still and so you know — we practiced. I had my driver’s license for a whole month before I lost it.

DB: Hm — there’s a story.

DJ: (laughs) yeah. Yeah I —

DB: But, before you lost it you had to take a test?

DJ: Right, I took the test at Arden Hills during a snowstorm —

DB: And passed?

DJ: And passed.

DB: Bravo. A true —

DJ: First time —

DB: A true Minnesotan.

DJ: Right? (laughs) Yeah it was — that was quite interesting. I thought for sure they’d cancel or something. But it went on. And I passed the first time, so I did feel good about that.

DB: And uh — you didn’t find it to be difficult to pass the test?

DJ: No.

DB: So, you had your license for a month and then —

DJ: And then I — this — I was on a date with a girl and she didn’t have her driver’s license. She pestered me into letting her drive and so she drove up Robert’s street going south in West St. Paul. She was speeding and she passed a car and — we met a police car. So, we pulled into a drive-in where all the kids hung out at that time and switched back so I was behind the driver’s wheel, because I figured there’d be more trouble if my parents found out I let an unlicensed girl drive the car (laughs). So I took the rap for an illegal pass. And they took my license for thirty days.

DB: The court did? Not your parents?

DJ: No — yeah, the court (laughs). And Hastings, to call the county court.

DB: And then were you in more trouble with your parents?

DJ: Yeah, they — they weren’t too bad about it, actually. But yeah, I was in some trouble. But I think they felt losing my privilege to drive for a while was punishment enough, so.

DB: And — what other kind of things did you do for dates?

DJ: Bowling, movies — there was a drive-in still then that was really popular to go to — the drive-in movie. Then there was a—

DB: Just — describe the drive-in movie for people that have no concept of it.

DJ: Well, yeah —

DB: They’re pretty rare now a days.

DJ: Very rare — a huge screen and you park your car by polls/posts that are in rows. On the poll/post there’s a speaker, which you could take off and put in your window.

DB: Hang it on the glass.

DJ: On the glass, right. And that’s how you got the sound and they’d have a snack bar up towards the front. You’d have to walk between all the cars to get up to the snack bar. Later, they’d started sending the sound over the AM radio so you could tune your radio in and pick up the movie — the soundtrack. Course, kids liked to go to drive-in movies because, you know, they could do a little spooning while they were watching the movie — that kind of thing, so.

DB: Mentioned a drive-in restaurant where you — or you ah lost your license.

DJ: Yeah.

DB: And — can you describe a drive-in restaurant — and this was — we’re looking at 1965.

DJ: Right — that’s where they car-hops and you ordered your food and a girl would bring it out from the restaurant to your car. Yeah I forgot that —

DB: Bring it out on a tray?

DJ: Bring it out on a tray that hooked to your window and sat beside your car. The kids loved going there. They’d be driving around with their — some kids had hotrods and nice cars —

DB: Do you remember the name of the restaurant?

DJ: Ten Acres — Ten Acres Drive-In.

DB: It was on Robert?

DJ: Right. Right. Yeah, right before it hit uh — it used to be old Highway 100. I don’t know what it is now, but. At that time Highway 100 ran around the Twin Cities, but there weren’t any other highways, so. Yeah there was a — and actually across the road was the drive-in movie, so — pretty handy (laughs). It was right on the edge of South St. Paul and West St. Paul.

DB: Do remember what it cost to go to the movie? Did they charge per person or per car load?

DJ: I think they used to charge a couple bucks for a car load, actually.

DB: So everybody chip in?

DJ: Yeah —

DB: Except the girls?

DJ: Some kids might hide in the trunk (laughs). Some people tried that stuff.

DB: Yeah.

DJ: I didn’t do that stuff.

DB: And— and hamburgers and a burger at the drive-in restaurant cost — about —

DJ: Yeah, maybe .45 cents for a burger and .30 cents for fries and a dime for a root beer — something like that.

DB: And — and at this point where did — when you were a teenager just starting to drive — where did you get your money to do these things?

DJ: Well I got a job right away when I was sixteen — a part-time job at a bowling alley. My job there was to work on the pin-setting machine — when they’d get jammed up or clogged up or broke down. And also, rent shoes and uh — just kind of generally wait on people.

DB: Do you remember what you earned?

DJ: Yeah — a dollar an hour, I started at.

DB: And was that pretty good money?

DJ: At the time I thought it was, but (laughs) not so much now. I don’t think my littlest grandkid that’s four would even want a dollar an hour — he’d want more than that, so.

DB: Did you do other things when you were younger? Cut grass? Rake leaves? Shovel snow — any of that?

DJ: I did —

DB: You were in more rural settings, so maybe it wasn’t conducive to —

DJ: Yeah there — most — there wasn’t really much — there weren’t any sidewalks for one thing on our road. But I did help the neighbors in their — there was a truck farm next to us that grew vegetables and stuff. I used to go pick rocks and weed — weed — they had a huge garden. And — yeah — I did some babysitting as well for relatives. Took care of nieces and nephews when my uncles and aunts had something to do.

DB: And you were able to keep your money? You didn’t have to turn it in — contribute it to the family?

DJ: Not really — yeah I was able to keep it, but I had to buy all my own school clothes and that kind of thing. Yeah, I didn’t have to pay rent or anything like that.

DB: Any — you mentioned that you’re Catholic. Was your family active in the church?

DJ: We went to church every Sunday and they sent us to our religious lessons on Wednesdays — actually, we would go from school — public school — to your religious lessons on Wednesdays after school. That’s how it worked back then. And — yeah, we — we went to church every Sunday and all other days that we were supposed to.

DB: Was First Communion — was that a big deal for your family?

DJ: Yeah, First Communion was a big deal. I made that in South St. Paul at St. Augustine's Church. Then when I — as I got older they built a new church in Inver Grove Heights, not too far from — a couple miles maybe from the high school. There was a new housing tract put in there. It was called, at that time, South Grove. So, I ended up getting married in that church ultimately.

DB: Did you — were you feeling — were your parents in the rural setting into which they initially moved starting to feel the pressure of suburbanization coming in around? Or did they stay relatively rural for a long time?

DJ: It stayed rural my whole childhood and by the time I had left home they — shortly after that my parents moved to California. Swift Company closed and my father transferred to — Stockton, California had a Swift plant there.

DB: Okay — were you involved in scouting?

DJ: I was in Cub Scouts and I think Webelos they called it. I was also in 4-H. I was more active in 4-H.

DB: And what kind of uh activities and programs did they have for you?

DJ: In 4-H you could— well they had all kinds of livestock things. I exhibited sheep at the county fair in Farmington every year. But, they also had art and I had a — I did some art projects. I won a purple ribbon at the state fair — went from the county fair to the state fair and got a ribbon there one year.

DB: Was it a deer? (Laughs)

DJ: No it wasn’t actually (Laughs). It was more of a —

DB: Keep working on the deer — trying to beat out your friend (Both Laughing).

DJ: Right — that was actually kind of a more crafty thing. It was — what I did was I buy the old— I think — what were they thirty—three RPM records or the real thick heavy ones that came out before high-fidelity and stereo. I’d buy those and I’d heat them up in hot water and bend them into kind of a design. Then, spray paint them with metallic paint and put things on there —

DB: More of a sculptural thing?

DJ: Yeah.

DB: Okay. Let’s see we talked about dating, high school — any other interests developing there? You talked about shop —

DJ: Well I’ll say that — when I was growing up the — we had a television. We were only allowed to watch one show at evening.

DB: Black and white.

DJ: Black and white. I do remember that a lot of the shows I watched were about World War II. A lot of movies —

DB: Do you remember the name of any —

DJ: Victory at Sea and Combat and —

DB: Sergeant Saunders?

DJ: Yeah. So — you know I grew up and we also played, you know, soldier and army when we were kids a lot. Civil War a lot too — I had cousins from Mississippi and when they came up they’d be the rebels and we’d be the Yankees (laughs).

DB: But— no real wars immerging (laughs).

DJ: No. But — we had tents and we camped a lot. We had — it seemed like a lot of land then, but it was only three and a half acres. But to a kid — we had a woods, and a pond, so we camped in the back. Eventually my dad built us a little shelter and we had a fire-pit. We’d stay overnight back there and cook breakfast, you know. That kind of thing.

DB: So — a pretty good childhood?

DJ: Had a great childhood that way, yeah. Lot of freedom — lot of outdoor time and —

DB: In — in the sixties there’s a lot of turmoil, especially starting in the early sixties. There’s the Berlin Wall crisis — there’s the Cuban Missile Crisis — there’s the assassination of Kennedy — things — Vietnam is starting to build up. Did you watch the news much? Were you someone who was focused much on international affairs? Or national — political activities?

DJ: My father was a — he really enjoyed the news — reading and watching the news. I inherited some of that from him.

DB: And reading — he got his reading sources from — the newspapers?

DJ: Yeah, the newspapers and magazines and — I remember when Kennedy was assassinated. I was in science class in eighth grade — and was such a shock to everyone. My mom worked at West Publishing and they printed the congressional record. And after the assassination — there were a lot of articles in there. And the big investigation and all that stuff was in the congressional record which she was allowed to bring — bring home copies for us.

DB: Did you read some of that?

DJ: I did. I did. Yeah it was really shocking — kind of a — seems like — for me like we lost some kind of innocence or niceness in our country or something, you know.

DB: I think it was a Thursday? Did they close your schools?

DJ: They had it on — I think they had it on a television. They made an announcement to us and they may have sent us home early. They may have closed school the next day, but I can’t remember for sure. Everybody was just in shock basically.

DB: Yeah — yeah. And did you watch the funeral coverage and everything on the television?

DJ: Did — did watch all that.

DB: And as Vietnam was building up — are you aware of any of that?

DJ: I think about — I thought about it somewhat. Some older kids from our school were sent to Vietnam. One —

DB: Kids in grades ahead of you?

DJ: Right. And one kid that I knew pretty well was killed before I was even old enough to go. He was a couple years ahead of me. And—

DB: Do you remember —

DJ: So I thought about it and —

DB: And — and how was that — mentioned or talked about in the community? Or your family?

DJ: You know the kids talked about it at school, but it — kind of a shocked manner. It seems so far away to us, I guess. And — and you know when you’re that age — I was thinking about girls more than — than the military or the war. But I did keep track — and my dad, I know, was worried about it. I realized as a got older that he was more worried than I knew at the time.

DB: And the community — Inver Grove at this time was pretty much all white?

DJ: Pretty much. Although, there were a lot of Hispanics. The one kid that was killed was a Hispanic kid and I had really good friends that — at that time they were called Latinos there — but I had good friends where I stayed overnight and stuff that were — you know were from Mexico.

DB: But everybody got along? Just uh —

DJ: Yeah.

DB: Just a community?

DJ: Yeah, pretty much, yep.

DB: As Christmas comes along — Easter — Fourth of July — birthdays — how were these things celebrated in your family?

DJ: Well Christmas was always nice. We’d get a tree and decorate it and we’d — you know — do all church activities. Generally, either a bunch of relatives would come over on Christmas Eve or we’d go to their place. Sometimes we’d come — go to our grandparents. Mostly the ones up here and my maternal grandparents. My grandfather made —

DB: Up here to Bemidji?

DJ: Yeah — he made homemade sausage all the time and he’d always have that for Christmas Eve. It was kind of a tradition to go to midnight mass and come home and have homemade sausage and homemade bread — perhaps a few sips of wine as well. My parents really weren’t drinkers though, so — but some of the relatives were more so (laughs). Yeah,

Christmas was always nice. We didn’t— not like now where kids get a ton of gifts, but we always got a couple of things.

DB: More practical? Or more fun? Or a little of both?

DJ: A little of both. My — my grandmother usually gave us socks and underwear and that kind of thing. But, my parents usually gave us one toy — like they’d use to have forts with little toy soldiers and things. I had a couple of those. I had the Alamo and Fort Apache —

DB: Fort Apache, yeah —

DJ: Right — and uh it was real nice. Holidays were nice. Easter — same thing. They’d have a basket with candy and things and stuff for us. Fourth of July — usually a picnic. Occasionally, we’d have some small fireworks, little firecrackers and mostly, though, just cap-guns and stuff like that — sparklers.

DB: Did you go to Big City Fireworks or anything?

DJ: Sometimes we did, but not very often.

DB: And birthdays — was that a big deal?

DJ: Birthdays were — they were always recognized and my mom would usually make a cake. We might get a small gift. I remember I got a ball point pen when they were kind of new — that was really happy. I wanted one in the worst way. Grade school kids they loved pens cause they’re stuck with pencils, you know. So yeah — we usually had — sometimes a couple neighbor kids would come over and we’d have hot dogs and cake.

DB: Did your parents support and facilitate your interest in art?

DJ: They did a bit. My mom let me do a portrait of her when I was maybe in seventh or eighth grade. I still have it somewhere. She kept it all these years and returned it to me recently. My dad was not — to him it was more, I was playing. It wasn’t really practical. He was a hands on guy.

DB: He was pretty serious — “Do your work” and that kind of guy?

DJ: Yep — yep. He was raised — his parent’s religion was Dutch Reformed and they didn’t play cards or dance or use alcohol or smoke or anything, you know. So that kind of transferred into, I think, his attitude about work and things too. He was a hard worker and he expected us to be too. We always had chores and we did a lot of work when we were kids. Since I was the oldest I had a lot of responsibility with both my parents working. I would usually start dinner and you know take care of my brother and sister. And you know, we’d have to scrub floors and we had to iron our clothes for school.

DB: That was another skill that we’ve forgotten.

DJ: Right! (laughs) I don’t want to even see iron now, but —

DB: Years ago everything had to be ironed.

DJ: Right.

DB: Yeah.

DJ: Yeah, everything. My mom ironed pillowcases and sheets and — yeah t-shirts. Everything.

DB: Yeah, yeah. As school’s coming to an end, what ambitions did you have? What were you looking forward to — or dreading as the case may be? As you’re getting out of school?

DJ: Well, I had my girlfriend — who I eventually married, so I was pretty wrapped up in my relationship with her. We both — we both worked. By the time I was getting close to getting out of high school, I was cooking at a couple different restaurants. I got a job baking at a bakery overnight frying donuts and mixing bread. So, we were workers and we, you know, I bought a brand new Volkswagen in ‘67, the year I graduated.

DB: A Beetle?

DJ: Yeah. An old Beetle. My wife worked for Sears. And —

DB: Did all this work affect your schooling? And did — were your parents concerned about that? There comes a time with many adolescents when money becomes the focus rather grades.

DJ: Right. I wasn’t too focused on grades. I did alright without having to really work really hard.

DB: The focus was more on making money?

DJ: Making money and mostly on, you know, romance (laughs).

DB: And this is — this was one girlfriend that you had for the most part?

DJ: Right, I think we started dating when we were sixteen, maybe early seventeen years old? I graduated when I was seventeen, so yeah we started dating at sixteen. And we ended up marrying in nineteen sixty-eight — a year after I graduated.

DB: Hmm okay so early on.

DJ: Yeah it was — I just had turned eighteen and she was eighteen.

DB: And what were the prospects for a young eighteen year old married couple in nineteen sixty-seven?

DJ: Well, they were — they were pretty good because you could get a pretty decent job even with just a high school education at that time. We both worked and we both worked. I worked at Whirlpool Corporation after I graduated and she worked at a West Publishing where my mom was working.

DB: So you had serious jobs?

DJ: Yeah, we had a new car, new furniture, a new apartment and we — you know it was easy to make ends meet.

DB: And your parents were okay with you getting married when you’re eighteen?

DJ: Yeah, they actually were — my mom encouraged it and so did her parents cause pretty serious after going together for a couple years.

DB: All the parents liked each of you?

DJ: Yeah. My — my father-in-law, my girlfriend’s dad worked at the same place my dad did and they didn’t know each other well, but they knew. Eventually my mother-in-law also got a job at West Publishing, so. I had an uncle work in there too, so —

DB: Overall good family situation.

DJ: Was, yeah.

DB: Getting along.

DJ: Right.

DB: And — and as eighteen year old newlyweds you’ve got jobs, you’ve got a lot of the material things — life is looking good —

DJ: Right.

DB: What ambitions did you have beyond these initial things? Were you looking down the road to the future? Or were you just enjoying life at that time?

DJ: We were pretty just enjoying life. I did want to go to school eventually — to college. I started right after high school at the U. I was there like two days and I couldn’t find my way around or anything. I wasn’t ready so I dropped out right away.

DB: Too overwhelming?

DJ: And then I started chef school as well, because I’d cooking for a couple years. They wouldn’t— you know it was like they’re gonna teach us how to boil water and I already had been. Had a kind of an attitude, you know that —

DB: This was night school while you’re working at Whirlpool?

DJ: Right. So I dropped out of both of those and just was working and — we were happy. We had a lot of friends and you know, we had our families. Things were good. The war was going on and — I tried — I know I watched it on the news. We both did, but at the time they weren’t drafting married people. So I didn’t think that much about it.

DB: It wasn’t — a major concern for you?

DJ: It wasn’t really. I had some friends that were in and I knew of people, but I — I was so wrapped up in my own little world that I — I just didn’t live in dread of being called up.

DB: And among — among your friends who had been drafted what was the attitude at the time?

DJ: Actually some of them had joined — quite a few joined.

DB: But I’m specifically talking about the ones that were drafted. As — as public attitudes or young people’s attitudes towards the draft at the time that you remember. What kind of discussions did you have?

DJ: Well, there were some people who said — should refuse the draft. My cousin, who was the same age as me, he was hiding out. He refused it and they were looking for him.

DB: In the — still in the community?

DJ: In Minneapolis. And — I had mixed feelings about it. But I was brought up to believe in our country and if you’re called to go, so. I understood why people were demonstrating against it — and I had sympathy for that as well. It was a very turbulent time. I didn’t look down on my cousin for dodging the draft. But — and he didn’t look down on me for going. But —

DB: And — so you were drafted?

DJ: I was drafted on the first — the first lottery. I was doing fine till that lottery came along. (laughs)

DB: When was that?

DJ: That was in October of — ‘69. My wife — I’d married just over a year and my wife was a couple months pregnant. I think when the lottery came out they did away with — school deferments and married deferments, because I had a really low number and I got my notice right away.

DB: And what did your wife think about that?

DJ: Well, she was — you know devastated really. You know, our little idyllic life was going to come to an end shortly and she was pregnant, so. She didn’t like the idea of me being gone and her pregnant. That’s when I realized how much my dad was worried about it because as soon as they had the lottery and my birthdate came up, he was on the phone calling me. “You know what this means, don’t you?” and I said, “Yeah, I do.” It didn’t really sink in, but I started feeling kind of — I don’t know — a little bit of a feeling of dread, because I didn’t want to leave my little pregnant wife either.

DB: You had big obligations in St. — where was your apartment? St. Paul?

DJ: South St. Paul — but almost in the St. Paul line. It was up off of Concord, up on the hill up there. Yeah I — I believed you should do what your country calls you to do — and all that. But at the same time I — you know — part of me wanted to go on a big adventure too. And part of me was, “I don’t want to leave”.

DB: You’re already on an adventure with a wife —

DJ: Right.

DB: And a baby coming.

DJ: Right — exactly. I realize now how — even though I’d been married a year and everything — how childlike we kind of were still, you know. In our attitudes and everything, so.

DB: So what was your wife gonna do when you were drafted?

DJ: Well, she was gonna continue working at West Publishing as long as she could. She started out staying with some friends of ours — another married couple who we’d been friends with through high school.

DB: You gave up the apartment?

DJ: Yep. Yeah.

DB: What did you do with all your furniture?

DJ: We sold it to the guy that — a lot of it we sold to the guy that was gonna rent it. He was a South St. Paul cop. But some of it we stored at my grandparents in Stearns County. I still have some of it actually.

DB: So what was the — the whole process of getting drafted? How were you notified?

DJ: Well, I got the letter in the mail. I forget — it said, “Greetings” and I knew it was coming, so I wasn’t surprised. It gave me a date to leave on February third, I think it was.

DB: Did you have to go down and — and take — tests and a physical and everything?

DJ: Right. We did that in Minneapolis.

DB: At on Washington Avenue — the Federal Building?

DJ: Right.

DB: How did that go? Do you remember anything about that?

DJ: Oh, I do. I remember that it was — you know — very — kind of demeaning I thought. Because you were standing around with your clothes off, with a hundred other guys and they were checking — you know.

DB: Count your fingers? Count your toes?

DJ: Right, all that —

DB: Bend over —

DJ: Right — so, you know, it was — I thought it was kind of smelly too, because all those young, sweaty bodies, you know. Yeah I thought it was kind of demeaning. They actually went down the line — they needed some marines and they just counted off. That was really — I didn’t want to be in the marines so I was — you know — but I lucked out. The number didn’t land on me, so I was relieved about that.

DB: A lot of academic style testing too?

DJ: There was some. I think maybe some kind of uh general intelligence test and maybe some psychological stuff too. It was a whole day of stuff — long day.

DB: At the end of the day had you been given any kind of feedback or anything? Or just a reporting date?

DJ: Just the reporting date. I had to report really early in the morning at the South St. Paul Post Office.

DB: How long after your physical and everything?

DJ: Not very long. I can’t remember exactly, but perhaps a month or a couple weeks.

DB: Okay — is that when you took your oath?

DJ: Right.

DB: Okay. The actual reporting date.

DJ: Yep. They took us back to Minneapolis from South St. Paul. We took the oath in Minneapolis and then they sent us over to a hotel for supper. Then we got on a plane and headed out to — I headed to Fort Bragg.

DB: Was that your first plane ride?

DJ: Yeah, it was (laughs). That was my first plane ride.

DB: So what was that experience?

DJ: Well, I kind of enjoyed it because we flew to DC and we flew where I saw — you know — the Washington Monument and stuff from the plane. Then from there we flew to Fort Bragg.

DB: This is February of ‘70 now?

DJ: Um-hm.

DB: Okay.

DJ: And once we got to Fort Bragg — wow — that’s when I got scared. You know, they jump on the bus and start yelling at you.

DB: Go to the reception station?

DJ: Yeah.

DB: Haircuts?

DJ: Haircuts –

DB: Uniforms?

DJ: Uniforms — lots more testing.

DB: Now, you’d come from a smaller, fairly close-knit community in Minnesota and now you’re surrounded by people from everywhere —

DJ: From everywhere, yeah.

DB: What was that experience?

DJ: All races and a lot of big inner-city — lot, you know — New Jersey, New York. A lot of Southern people too. I got along pretty well. I didn’t have any conflicts with anyone in basic training. I just tried to do what I was supposed to do and not irritate anyone, so. It was tough, though. I mean I was lonely for my wife — first you couldn’t even call home for the first few days. You know my name being David Jansen at the time when I would call home collect from basic training the operators would think I was some guy pretending I was the guy from The Fugitive. And they’d tease me, “Oh this the Fugitive?” — so I do remember that (laughs).

DB: And then you — you talk about calling home. It wasn’t like today when you just turn on your cell phone.

DJ: Right.

DB: What was the process of calling home?

DJ: Oh, you waited in line by a pay-phone and put your money in and got the operator and then asked to place a collect call to, you know, St. Paul Minnesota. Give them the number and then they’d ring it up. They’d tell them who was calling and then they could answer if they wanted. They usually did (laughs).

DB: Was that you primary means of communicating? Or did you write a lot of letters?

DJ: I wrote a lot of letters too, but not so many in basic as I did later because they keep you so busy and you’re so tired. A lot of kids were sick, you know. A lot of— at that time spinal meningitis, so we had to tie sheets around our bunks and all that. Lot of people got pneumonia. I actually had a — a profile for a while. My ankle swelled up and could hardly walk. I hadn’t worn those kind of boots, you know and —

DB: Did they uh — this is winter at Fort Bragg — you were in the wooden barracks —

DJ: Yeah the old wooden barracks — there they are.

DB: Two story?

DJ: Yep.

DB: And — and they kept the windows open because of meningitis?

DJ: Yeah — in the — people had to walk around at night. There was fire — I forget what they called it, but it was to watch for fires —

DB: Fire Guard.

DJ: Yeah, Fire Guard and we had to crawl under them if did — screwed up, you know. They would have to crawl under the barracks and that dust was old under there (laughs). Yeah basic, you know, it was — it was hard. But when you’re — I was a — I turned twenty right before I

went — so you’re in pretty good shape at that time of your life. You have a lot of endurance and I was skinny then and light. I could run.

DB: What was the hardest thing in basic?

DJ: Um —

DB: As far as the training? Not talking about being away from home and family and all that, but just as far as the training?

DJ: I think for me it was the bayonet training. And the — I just didn’t —

DB: Parry right — parry left — over?

DJ: Right. You had to yell, “The spirit of the bayonet — to kill, to kill without mercy.” I just didn’t feel comfortable. Being brought up, you know, “Thou shalt not kill.” I just had trouble with that — but I did it, you know. But I remember my drill sergeant yelling in my ear, you know, “You’re not —” you know — I wasn’t sticking it hard enough. I must have been earnest enough in my sticking (laughs) with the bayonet. Then I also thought, well I hope I don’t get in a situation where I have to use a bayonet later. But part of it I actually liked, because I’d been a camper my whole life and my family camped. So, I didn’t mind the camping and the rifle range and stuff, you know. It was pretty, you know, rigid and structured and a lot of yelling. But the actual shooting and the camping, that stuff I kind of liked. The woods, smoke, and the old mess kits and everything. I enjoyed some of that.

DB: Did you have M-14’s or M-16’s?

DJ: We had M-16’s and we were the first basic training cycle to go through with M-16’s. That eliminated a lot of drill. We didn’t have to do what other guys did before us. They were easy to shoot and easy to take apart and clean.

DB: How did all the guys get along in the barracks? You’re from all over the country — or at least regionally. How did the guys get along with each other?

DJ: Well, for the most part everyone got along. But there were some problems between some people. There was guy who would never get up and he would get us in trouble because he was never ready. So, they - he could sleep through anything and they actually took his bunk and carried him out —

DB: Who’s they?

DJ: The guys in the platoon.

DB: Okay, the other trainees.

DJ: Right. They carried his bunk with him asleep in it out to the formation grounds and set him there. Then they got his footlocker and put it at the end of his bed and everything. He was pretty surprised when morning formation came (laughs) —

DB: Present.

DJ: Right. So there was some of that — there were a couple of times when they — a few guys would, you know get some guy and try to get him in line to keep up or do the right thing so we all didn’t have to get in trouble. I did get KP once and had to do pots and pans I think. But for the most part I just tried to kind of keep a low profile and — then later in basic training our drill sergeant was a Puerto Rican guy. He had a really bad temper, but he was small. But for some reason he kind of took a liking to me and since I was married I didn’t want to go to town and drink or shoot pool like a lot of the guys did. They finally got passes towards the end, you know. So, he would let me pull other people’s CQ duty and then they’d pay me, so.

DB: Hm — made a little money on the side?

DJ: Made a little money and I got E2 in basic and moved on.

DB: Do you remember how much money you were making in basic training?

DJ: I think my first pay was like seventy-six dollars or something like that. And I went, “Gee, I have a wife at home and expecting a child” — yeah the pay wasn’t so great. It was not so good.

DB: But back home your wife was able to get by? She still making money?

DJ: She was still working and — eventually both of our parents transferred to California.

DB: While you were in the service?

DJ: Right.

DB: And did that put your wife in a difficult situation?

DJ: Well, it did. She ended up moving out there and staying with her family for a while.

DB: Out to California?

DJ: Yeah. Which worked out okay, because later on — you know — I left from Seattle so we went out there and spent time with our families.

DB: When — while you’re in basic training — let’s go back to the mess hall a little bit. Just describe the mess hall situation.

DJ: The mess hall was kind of bad. The regular army guys got to eat first.

DB: The drill sergeants and —

DJ: Yeah and then the guys that joined —

DB: Oh — oh.

DJ: The RA’s.

DB: The RA’s

DJ: Yep.

DB: Okay, regular army guys. I see what you mean.

DJ: Yeah. Yep. And then the draftees got to eat next. And then after that was the reserves and guards.

DB: Oh, they separate you from—

DJ: Yeah, there was kind of a pecking order there. Usually they’d have us do — you know — exercises while we were waiting in line. And then once you got in the chow hall it was — you know they yelled at ya, “Eat up and get out! Eat up and get out! Eat up!” you know right in your ear. You were trying to eat and people would be eating so fast. There was no time for a cup of coffee — ever, you know. Just jamb the food in and run out. You had to run everywhere and people would be actually — some people threw up when they were leaving the mess hall because they ate so fast and all the activity.

DB: And you’re — you’re — you go the mess line and lots of choices in what you can eat?

DJ: (laughs) Yeah — yeah the old “shit on a shingle”.

DB: SOS?

DJ: SOS and fried eggs — they did have fried eggs.

DB: For breakfast?

DJ: Right. I remember the food not being the best, but it was — you know — you could get by on it. People even gained weight. Yeah, they made — they put us in really good shape — you know, they knew what they were doing. I think they re-socialized us and all, so — you know changed our bodies.

DB: But for each meal it was — it was one meal. You didn’t get a choice — it wasn’t like buffet?

DJ: No — no. No, it was just whatever they were serving.

DB: Were there things that you learned to eat in basic training that you might have been picky about as a civilian?

DJ: Um — I would say I didn’t eat eggs a lot, although I love to make eggs now and eat them. It’s not even on there (laughs). But — as far as the SOS I still like that — I still make it here, at home. I make my own sausage and I think they might have used chip beef, but we make it like biscuits and gravy. I didn’t eat a lot in basic training, to be honest. Just enough to get by and — you know, I did enjoy it when we were in the field when they brought the food out — the hot food out — and you’d been hiking for miles and stuff. It hit the spot — I didn’t really care what it was, you know.

DB: Was it difficult writing to your wife? Or receiving letters back from her? Not the physical process of writing, but the emotional side of it.

DJ: Yeah, it was kind of hard. I — the whole time I was in the military I wasn’t exactly forthright about everything — cause I didn’t want my wife to worry. Or my parents to worry about me so much. So I tried to stick to pleasantries and not complain too much.

DB: What — what were you programmed for after basic training? And did you have any choice in it? And when did you find out what you were — where you were gonna go for your advanced individual training?

DJ: I didn’t find out until a couple days, I think, before we graduated. My orders were to go to Fort Sill — to artillery surveyor’s school, which I really had no idea what it was but I was relieved that I didn’t have to go infantry school. So —

DB: How did you get to Fort Sill? This is in Oklahoma.

DJ: Right. I think they — we flew. We flew there. There were a bunch of us — a lot of Minnesotans went to survey school. And even when I got to Vietnam a lot of surveyors were from Minnesota.

DB: Did you get a leave after basic training?

DJ: I did not.

DB: Okay, so right to Fort Sill?

DJ: Right to Fort Sill —

DB: What — what’s the environment at Fort Sill?

DJ: At Fort Sill it was — I felt like I had graduated to a college because I went school in brick — nice brick buildings with nice landscaping and classrooms and —

DB: More academic.

DJ: More academic — we had a drawing board that we carried and a T-square, and triangles, and math books. We had a — I forget what you’d call it — the — you know when they have the stars, you go into the room and they have the sky and it moves the stars — the stars move. A planetarium.

DB: A planetarium.

DJ: We had a planetarium right there on the grounds and —

DB: And what was the point of that?

DJ: Well, we sometimes had to take — we had to learn some of the stars, because we had to sometimes use stars for surveying. Take shots with our instruments to place ourselves on the ground. Kind of like, I guess, sailors used to do on ships, you know. And sometimes solar shots as well. With those you didn’t actually look at the sun, but you held a card under the instrument and followed it that way. It was like going to school and I actually got to live off post, which was odd for — for that advance training. Some of the guys from basic went to Fort Sill and just went to regular artillery school. And they lived in the same kind of barracks and went through the same kind of stuff really as basic training.

DB: The guys who were gonna be gunners or something like that?

DJ: Right — right. And also right next to us was OCS. So we were seeing what those guys were really getting their butts kicked, constantly.

DB: Glad to not be there?

DJ: Yeah, I was glad not to — I actually — they asked me if I wanted to go to that and I was glad I didn’t, cause they had to stay in more years and —

DB: When you’re drafted the enlistment is for two years?

DJ: Right.

DB: Yes. Okay.

DJ: Yeah, you have a six year obligation, but active is two.

DB: Four years of reserve time.

DJ: Right. Yeah, so it was really nice and my wife did come down there. A friend brought her down and we rented a little trailer in town — a trailer court and, you know, we lived kind of a normal — we shared it with a marine Gunnery sergeant and his wife.

DB: And why was a marine at Fort Sill?

DJ: There were people there for that artillery survey school from other branches. If they were gonna be in artillery —maybe the marines didn’t have a survey school.

DB: Did you feel you were in a more elite portion of the — of the artillery?

DJ: I did in a way. It was a kind of a cleaner job than loading cannons and, you know.

DB: Quieter.

DJ: Quieter. Yeah it was a — it was nice. I actually enjoyed AIT. I — we didn’t have to do details and —

DB: More academic. More of a school.

DJ: Really academic, yeah. And we had a lot of freedom, like on weekends we’d go explore around Oklahoma and stuff. We went down to Texas to Six Flags.

DB: You have your Volkswagen down there?

DJ: By then I had a Fairlane. A Ford Fairlane. I bought a Fairlane in ‘69. And that’s the car we had there. And I actually ran into a guy from high school that was down there too with his wife. It’s kind of funny — the military’s a small world. I ran into people all the time that I knew.

Yeah, so we did a lot of surveying — practicing out in the field. There were snakes — rattlesnakes quite often and scorpions. I remember I had two scorpions that I kept in a coffee can and we would race them on the table. Just for fun, you know, and laughs. And — one of our instructors was a marine as well. He actually had my wife and I over for dinner a couple of times and stuff, so. The life was pretty good at Fort Sill really.

DB: How long — how long was the school?

DJ: Well, I think I — let’s see — I got there maybe in April and I left there in June. I’m not sure if it was ten weeks or — seemed a little longer than basic though. Then I did get a leave.

DB: But of course your wife’s already there with you and your parents have sold the homestead — both your parents have sold their homesteads in Minnesota.

DJ: Right. Right. Right.

DB: What were you gonna do when you had a leave? Your wife is there with you.

DJ: Right. We — we drove back to the Twin Cities and we visited siblings and people there.

DB: You still had family that you could stay with?

DJ: Right. And then we actually left the car there and flew to California and stayed with our parents out there for a few days.

DB: Had your wife quit her job at West Publishing, then? She must have —

DJ: She had then — by then.

DB: She must have if she moved to Fort Sill.

DJ: Yep.

DB: And what were you doing for money? You —

DJ: Just our — just the army pay.

DB: One hundred and twenty-five bucks a month or something like that?

DJ: Yeah it wasn’t easy. That’s why we were sharing a place with another couple.

DB: And how far along is she in her pregnancy now?

DJ: Let’s see — about maybe four months or five months or —

DB: So she was just pregnant when you got drafted?

DJ: Yeah, just pregnant.

DB: And what’s the discussion about the future in that regard?

DJ: Well, she didn’t want to be alone or she couldn't afford to live alone in the Twin Cities. So that’s why she decided to stay with her folks.

DB: In California?

DJ: In California. And my folks were there too and — it was a kind of a hard time. I was playing — I thought this song — the — I forget the name of it, but it was about getting drafted and. It was on a Woodstock album. I thought it was really funny. It was, “C’mon” —

DB: Country Joe and the Fish?

DJ: Yeah Country Joe and the Fish.

DB: “One, two, three. What are we fighting for?”

DJ: “What are we fighting for?” I thought it was hilarious and I was playing it for my parents and they didn’t think it was funny at all. Especially the part about being the first one on your block to have your son come home in a box. Yeah, I didn’t realize at the time how offensive that must have been. It’s bothered me, you know, fifty years later. I thought, Well what an idiot. What were you doing?

DB: But it was — Country Joe wrote it not as an antiwar song, he wrote it as a barracks humor song.

DJ: Yeah.

DB: Yeah.

DJ: But just some of the lines were —

DB: If you’re a parent —

DJ: Painful for my parents.

DB: Yeah, if you’re a parent you don’t like the barracks humor.

DJ: Right. Yeah, but it shows you how thoughtless you are when you’re twenty or nineteen, you know. I was twenty then, but —

DB: So you had your orders for Vietnam. You’re visiting your parents in California. Your wife’s out there —

DJ: Yep, had all my shots at Fort Sill before we left on leave. You know, all the shots for going to Vietnam. A lot of guys were going to Vietnam — most of them.

DB: And you were too.

DJ: And I was too.

DB: You got your orders right out of survey school.

DJ: Right.

DB: Okay.

DJ: Yeah.

DB: Unless -we didn’t really talk about it here, but describe what an artillery surveyor does. What did you learn in the school?

DJ: Well artillery surveyors — the artillery needs to be surveyed in. You need to know the coordinates of the cannon in order to fire at other coordinates. You need to know where it is in relate on the earth — in relationship to your targets. And so we mostly did traverses and triangulations, where you measure distances and angles. And then you can compute using logarithms and things where that next point is — where your — or where your canon is. You usually come from some known point and traverse over to. But occasionally you have to use the stars or the sun to place yourself. And we had big thick books of logarithms and my job always was primarily instrument operator. So, I didn’t have to a lot of the math and calculations — people were specialized kind of and —

DB: For the team?

DJ: Right. So — I probably couldn’t calculate out of survey right now, but I would know how to operate the instrument and, you know.

DB: So the artillery fire had to be very, very accurate.

DJ: Right.

DB: So, what kind of a tolerance were allowed in laying in the guns? As far their positioning?

DJ: Not very much. I can’t remember the exact —

DB: Few meters? Ten?

DJ: No, I don’t even that. We tried to get right to the point, you know. But I think — as you say because you might be firing a mission over friendly people, or close to friendly, or close to a village it had to be fairly accurate. And they also calculated in the weather conditions — the humidity. A survey unit also has weather people.

DB: How big was a survey unit?

DJ: Well, we had usually four firing batteries and headquarters battery — the firing batteries usually had six. We had one five five Howitzers and often they would split into two groups of three and be attached at one firebase or another. We did a lot with the 25th infantry—I’m kind of stuck.

DB: Yeah. Just your survey section — how — what was the composition of the survey —

DJ: Oh survey guys? There were — there was the instrument operator, and the recorder, who recorded your readings. And then there were two guys who measured the distances with a two- hundred foot tape usually. And then there was a couple guys that did the calculations. And then the boss — the sergeant that kind of —

DB: Where — where did the meteorological section come in?

DJ: Well, I don’t know how many of them there were, but they would send up like balloons and test the humidity, and the temperature and wind.

DB: They’d just give you the data.

DJ: Yeah — we all gave our data to Fire Direction and Control. FADAC they called it. And then they took it from there.

DB: And what was the mission of Fire Direction?

DJ: They calculated — they checked all our calculations and then they had their own calculations, plus the weather stuff. And then they — they could get a fire mission and get everything figured out in a few minutes.

DB: So the forward observer’s out somewhere?

DJ: Right.

DB: Calls in a mission.

DJ: Right. And he has coordinates. He’s got his map and —

DB: And in a few minutes they could calculate the — where rounds have to go?

DJ: Yep.

DB: Set the charges.

DJ: Yep, and what kind and they had all different kinds of rounds.

DB: So you’re in Cali — this is before all this now — you’re in California. And — and you have to get to Vietnam.

DJ: Right.

DB: So, you have to say goodbye to your wife?

DJ: Right.

DB: And — and the pending arrival.

DJ: Right.

DB: How — was that pretty tough?

DJ: It was really tough — yeah. I felt really bad. We were very close and part of me was — you know being a young man, you got adventure in your heart too a little bit, but— yeah it was bad. I flew — they drove me to Sacramento and I took a plane from there to Seattle. One of my favorite uncles that used to take me hunting all the time was then living in Seattle, so he picked me up and brought me to Fort Lewis.

DB: You’re traveling in uniform?

DJ: I did not. No I uh — I had trouble with that so I —

DB: What kind of trouble did you have?

DJ: People were rude and — you know.

DB: This is 1970?

DJ: Right.

DB: What kind of — what kind of rudeness? What — what did you experience?

DJ: Oh — they didn’t want to sit by you for one thing, you know.

DB: In the airplane? In the terminal?

DJ: Right — in the airplane and they’d make remarks. I can’t remember any in particular, but they’d just — you know, stared at you and—

DB: Made to feel unwelcome?

DJ: Right. Right. So, I — the whole time I was in the military I always traveled a student stand-by rather than military stand-by.

DB: In civilian clothes?

DJ: Right. It just was easier. Yeah I wasn’t the guy that went home and wore my uniform downtown or whatever. I — I tried to um stay kind of incognito, I guess.

DB: Okay. So, you — your uncle picks you up?

DJ: Yep.

DB: And — was he a veteran?

DJ: He was not, but he was really — really patriotic and supportive of veterans and soldiers and—

DB: Okay. Yeah, he took you to Fort Lewis?

DJ: Took me to Fort Lewis and he felt really bad. You know everybody — you know when I left had tears in their eyes and I guess they don’t know if you’re coming back or not. So, yeah he felt pretty bad.

DB: So you get to Fort Lewis and what’s the process there?

DJ: Well, there we turned in all of our long underwear, and gloves and all of our regular issue uniforms, and got our jungle fatigues and jungle boots, and — we kind of just hung around a couple days until they got us on a flight. Then we got on a big plane with a lot of —

DB: Commercial airliner?

DJ: Yeah, it was a Flying Tiger. And — when I got on the plane of course I ran into people that I knew either from basic or from AIT.

DB: That’s comforting?

DJ: It was. I actually sat with a couple guys that I went through artillery survey school with — and they were from Minnesota. And so — but you know — once we got to Vietnam we went our separate ways. But, I was gonna say that — I need to –

Break in recording

DB: Sure.

DJ: Okay. I’m ready.

DB: Okay. So you’re in Seattle and you run into friends from training.

DJ: Right.

DB: And that gives a — degree of comfort.

DJ: It does. Especially we were pretty close — a couple of those friends got married at Fort Sill when we were there. And my wife and I witnessed for them — for their weddings. And— so it was good to see them again. And — at the airport in Seattle, Seatac — one of them decided to go to Canada. So he just bought a ticket and went to Canada.

DB: He was married?

DJ: He was married and told his wife to meet him in Canada. He just went and we were all — the rest of us were, you know, pretty shocked. But, we didn’t blame him or hold it against them or anything like that.

DB: Did you ever contact the person again? Or have you —

DJ: I’ve never seen him again. But we witnessed for them at their wedding. Both of their parents had died and they had inherited considerable amount of money and a couple of homes, so they probably had the resources to go to Canada. And no parents to hurt or —

DB: Start a new life up there?

DJ: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it was a — he was a close friend and I’ve never seen him again. But I’ve often wondered, you know, how his life turned out. Or if he came back on the amnesty program or what. The rest of us went (laughs).

DB: Yeah, yeah. So, you get on a plane. It’s Flying Tigers. And what’s the attitude on a plane?

DJ: Well, everyone seemed to be in pretty good spirits actually. Like a bunch of young guys going off on an adventure. The stewardesses were nice and kind and I think they probably felt bad for us in a way. Because of where we were going and — it was a long flight. We flew — I think we landed in — first in Japan, and then I think we flew to the Philippines from there, and then to Vietnam. And— when we got to Vietnam I was — we landed at Cam Ranh Bay and I saw smoke all over — coming up all over the place. And when I was looking out the window — we all saw it and I was thinking —

DB: There around the base?

DJ: Yeah. I was like, “Oh my god, what are we getting into here?” and didn’t realize it was just burning rubbish and waste. I thought maybe it was from explosions or something — I thought the worst, anyway. Cam Ranh Bay was really —

DB: Probably smelled worse?

DJ: Yeah, it smelled and very hot.

DB: And what month was this?

DJ: That was July. (1970)

DB: Ah, very hot. Yeah.

DJ: Yeah, beginning of July. Yeah it was really hot and hotter than probably most of us had ever experienced. And the smell. It was — when we got out of the plane it was a — like hitting a wall of a blast-furnace or something, it was so hot. And they — they sent us to some transit barracks, which were course filthy. There were no — there were just dirty mattresses. People were just laying on them in their uniforms and — until they sorted out who was going where. And —

DB: How long did it take to get an assignment?

DJ: I think I was only there for maybe a day and a night. And then I was sent to the 90th Replacement Battalion in Long Binh. Flew down there. And I wasn’t there very long either. And then I was sent to the Second Field Forces in Phu Loi.

When I got to Phu Loi — you know the whole thing was kind of mind boggling. The driving and riding in a bus with the metal mesh over the windows. And then riding in the backs of trucks and — when I got to Phu Loi we just kind of milled around. There was guy that had gone to my high school. He was a grade behind me, but — he was in my wife’s grade, but a familiar face, you know.

DB: Were any of the guys from artillery school with you?

DJ: They were no longer with me. They all —

DB: So you’re on your own?

DJ: I’m completely alone for the last couple days and so it was nice to meet him. He kind of took me under his wing and showed me where to — I could sleep. While we were there that night they had sappers come in and we had no idea — we had no weapons even or anything yet.

DB: You’re really not assigned to a unit yet?

DJ: Not really.

DB: You’re still — you’re still more or less in transit?

DJ: Right. Yeah, so I didn’t know what to do — like, “Get in a bunker!” so that’s what we did, but. That was uh — eh kind of scary. They had a red alert and we didn’t really get much sleep. But then the next day — or maybe two days or later — they sent me to Camp William S. Price. And that was the Fifth of the Forty-Second Artillery. And that’s the unit I was assigned to. Camp Price was on a road between Long Binh and Bien Hoa. Of course — actually I went right back down past the Ninetieth Replacement to get there, so they could have just sent me right there, but it didn’t work that way, you know. Had to make the round trip — long trip out of it. But it was — just seeing everything along the road, and the people, and the villages, and their little houses made out of old Coke cans — you know.

DB: Sheet metal with Coke cans printed on them. Yeah.

DJ: Yeah, the printed sheets. They must have been rejects from the factory — I never did figure that out, but — still wonder about that. But anyways, it was really interesting to me. I always liked traveling, even when I was younger. One of the things I liked about it was just seeing the way other people live — their home, housing and all that. So —

DB: Not like Inver Grove at all?

DJ: Not like Inver Grove at all, no. Although, in some ways it was just people but they had — everything was smaller. Smaller houses, and smaller vehicles, and — anyways, I took a convoy to Camp Price and — we were up near Tay Ninh where we started out. On — during this convoy we passed some tankers who actually had human heads on their tanks, so they had been in some kind of action. And that was kind of a brutal awakening for me.

DB: Skulls or —

DJ: They were new. They must just have been in some action and I didn’t you know talk to them or anything. I didn’t even really want to look — but anyways —

DB: What did they look like? The tankers?

DJ: They looked pretty — they looked — you know how guys looked after they’d been there a while. Pretty faded out and — you know — tired and beat up. You know — old, aged — you know. Yeah, they looked different than we did with our new green — green uniforms and fresh faces. They looked like they’d been through, you know, some rough stuff. Yeah, they didn’t — you know — look happy or anything.

DB: So you get to your camp.

DJ: I get to Camp Price, which was the home of — you know, our unit Fifth of the Forty- Second Arty and it was also the home of a Duster unit. We were like sister units. The duster unit, which is a tracked — their kind of an artillery unit in a way, but they have track vehicles with smaller guns that, I think, really were initially anti-aircraft guns in World War II.

DB: Forty — Duel-Forty Millimeter Cannons?

DJ: Yep, and they peddled them. Yeah, so that’s where I met my friend, Bill. He was in that unit. So, whenever either of us were in the rear at headquarters we’d see each other there.

DB: And how were you — how were you greeted into the unit? You’re by yourself as a replacement.

DJ: Yep. There were a couple other guys with me, but they weren’t gonna be surveyors — they were going in for some other jobs. Yeah, we didn’t really know each other, but somebody came and got me and took me over and introduced me to the survey section — the sergeant and the other guys. They showed me a bunk and got me set up there. Then — well, I didn’t really know what to do so the first night I was there I still hadn’t been issued a weapon or any of — or a flak jacket or a helmet or anything. I went over to the EM club and there I met a guy that I went through twelve years of school with — first grade through twelfth grade. It was —

DB: This isn’t was the guy that was a year behind you, this is somebody in your own class?

DJ: This is another guy, yeah. In my own class, so I’d only been in Vietnam a few days and I’ve already met two people I knew from before, you know.

DB: Hometown people.

DJ: Yeah. Hometown people.

DB: How long had he’d been in Vietnam?

DJ: He’d been there a while — a few months already. He was a cannon cocker, so he was just in for something — probably had to go maybe to the aid station or.

DB: What kind of stories did he have for you?

DJ: Well.

DB: Or what did you talk about?

DJ: We just had beer and we just talked generally like — first thing we said was, “What are you doing here?” and he said the same thing, “What are you doing here?” Then we chatted and visited about, you know, old times — grade school. Talked about people we knew in common and things like that. After we had a few beers, we had a — rockets came in and I had no idea even where to go, but I was glad he was there to, you know. Got me in a bunker and I fell in a ditch. I decided I’m not gonna drink anymore in Vietnam — so I didn’t after that. It was just too wild of a night, you know, not to have your head clear.

DB: Sure. And where are you living? Are you in tents? Or are you — do they have wooden barracks?

DJ: We’re in a hootches.

DB: Wooden barracks?

DJ: Mh-hm. Yeah. Which was, you know, pretty comfortable for over there. And it had been a engineer’s camp before the artillery took it over. So the engineers had even put in a swimming pool, so there was even —

DB: They know how to build things and the resources to do it.

DJ: Yeah, they had a nice swimming pool. So one guy in our unit it was his job to keep the pool, you know — maintain the pool.

DB: What did you do in Vietnam, Dad?

DJ: (laughs) Yeah, so I wrote to my parents and my wife saying, “Wow, this isn't too bad.” I got, you know, a bunk, and a hootch, and we got a swimming pool, and you know a mess hall not a mess tent. So, it was okay there.

DB: Can you describe your quarters in more detail?

DJ: Well, there was a cement floor and the wood went up maybe about four, five feet. Then it was screen up to the roof — it had a metal roof, wood siding, and then it was sandbagged all around the wood part. Then in between each one there was a bunker, a sandbag bunker. Then they had walkways with little bridges — there were a lot of ditches for water runoff.

DB: Duckboard sidewalks?

DJ: Yeah. And then down — you know, down at the end there was a latrine and showers. They had, you know, open showers — maybe six people or so could shower at a time. Then there were the latrine. You know how those were, with the barrel cut out and cut in half under there. Yeah, so I got to know people after a while, but I spent a lot of time — we had to go out and survey a lot. So, we weren’t there all the time. I would say we were in the field maybe two thirds or three quarters of the time.

DB: Was the building you were living in devoted to your survey section?

DJ: It was not.

DB: So it was just random —

DJ: Random guys that were in Headquarters Company or battery. Yeah.

DB: Was that a good situation? Or would it have been better to be with your team?

DJ: Um — it was okay because we spent all our time together anyways. Because even if we were in the rear we had to — we worked on our equipment and we worked on our vehicles. We had a Jeep and a little trailer and a three-quarter ton that we took. So, we spent all our time together except off time anyways. And then we had guard duty every night basically, so.

DB: On the bunker line?

DJ: Yeah.

DB: And what was the bunker line like?

DJ: Well, there were a couple of towers in the corners and then the rest were just bunkers with — they’d have an old cot in them, so you’d be on two hours and off two. They’d have two guys in each one. And they had usually a sixty — M60 — and maybe — we had claymores out and the concertina wire. The towers they had sixties as well. They were made out of metal. They

had sandbags around the inside of them. There was a dump across the road that — every night there was a sniper shooting. He never hit anybody.

DB: A garbage dump you mean? Or an ammunition dump?

DJ: Uh like a garbage dump the old vehicles trashed — like a junkyard.

DB: It provided plenty of cover for someone.

DJ: Yeah, and he would shoot — every night he would shoot at the bunkers, but he never hit anyone.

DB: Still you had to worry about it.

DJ: You had to watch for it and we could never get permission to fire back or anything, because it was too close they said to civilians, so. And we could watch from there. The one bunker line faced the Bien Hoa Airbase, which was mile or a couple miles away but we were higher. So you could watch — watch the jets take off and watch also the planes coming in, the pick-up — take people back to the States and drop people off.

DB: Did you have electrical lighting around the camp to light up the wire?

DJ: Yeah, they had some. They had generators — diesel generators that the noise was kind of always there. And then they had lights in the hootches and in the mess hall. They didn’t have a lot of lights on the perimeter. We had those flares that we could use. There was enough light often though, we could see the — the little — oh — mongooses in there at night. I don’t know if they were hunting snakes or whatever, but we saw those a lot.

DB: And did you have any rats? Rats in the bunkers?

DJ: Yeah we did have rats. In fact, it was my — I was off shift, laying on the cot — was my two hours off and I felt a big thump on my chest. Opened my eyes and a huge rat had landed on my chest. It was like as big as a cat. Well, I of course knocked it off and (laughs) jumped up and — yeah the rats were always an issue. I guess you get used to stuff like that, though. Kind of start taking it for granted, you know.

DB: So, in your survey section how were you briefed in? What did — did you have an NCOIC or an officer or?

DJ: Yeah, we had a — we had a — I think he was about an E-7. He was from Minnesota as well.

DB: Another Minnesotan?

DJ: Yeah. From Brainerd. Sergeant — Sergeant Everdeen, his name was. He was in charge and he decided who did what. I guess somehow I got to be the instrument operator. I think, at the

time I had really good eyes and some of the guys had glasses and I was just good at it, so that’s all I did was operate the instrument — theodolite. And —

DB: Did you — did they check you out? How did they determine —

DJ: Yeah, I think they did — yeah, they checked me out. They had me operate it and take some shots at things. You know, I was quick and I had it — it felt natural to me. You have to level it first and then, you know, they had different dials and knobs and focusing and all that. I could do it quickly, which I think — that’s what they wanted. A quick and accurate, because sometimes they had get those cannons up and fire and fast, you know.

DB: So what was your first mission?

DS: You know I can’t remember where we went for first, we just started doing surveys and sometimes we were out for three weeks. We do some — we did them a lot of different people. Not just our unit, but for other units as well.

DB: Vietnamese too?

DJ: Yeah, Vietnamese and we even surveyed for the Australians — One Seven Fives and I remember doing that — and staying in their camp.

DB: How was — how was it being with the Australians? Or the Vietnamese?

DJ: The Australians, you didn’t have to worry about anything. They didn’t let any Vietnamese in their camps at all. Like we hired them for the mess hall and laundry — they didn’t do any of that. They — they weren’t allowed in their camps at all. Their area was really secure. So, it was pretty comfortable. Actually went on R and R with a couple of Australians.

DB: To Sydney?

DJ: I went to Thailand.

DB: They didn’t want to go to Sydney?

DJ: (laughs) No.

DB: some place different?

DJ: Right. They were pretty wild — a lot wilder than me. But I enjoyed their company and they drank a lot of beer.

DB: How was it being on a Vietnamese base?

DJ: It seemed a little chaotic to me. More chaotic than our bases. But, I got along good with the Vietnamese people. I liked them and so I had no issues with it. I still did my job the same

way. Yeah, we traveled all over — all over the delta and over to the ocean, or the South China Sea, and up in the Parrot Beak and that area up there — by Nui Ba Den.

DB: So every time — every time there’d be a new fire base going in, you had to go in and do the survey?

DJ: Yep, every time. And they moved them a lot depending on operations and what the infantry was doing.

DB: And so what was the process of setting up a new firebase and at what point would you come in? Would infantry go in and set up the perimeter first? Or how did — what was the process?

DJ: Sometimes infantry was there and it always felt safer. But sometimes we were the first ones there before they even had the cannons there or anything. They were bringing them in as we were surveying. A couple times they just like dropped a bomb and made a crater. Then they brought in equipment to push up the berms and smooth it out. Then they’d bring in the — the cannons and all other stuff. Those times to me were more kind of nerve wracking, because we were kind of alone when we first got there. So, often we convoyed if we could to where they were doing a new firebase, but sometimes they’d just drop us off from a helicopter. One time — or twice — they flew us in those — oh what were they — C130’s? Or the ones with the back that comes down and —

DB: Uh — Chinook. CH-47.

DJ: Well, we took Chinooks but also wing aircraft a couple times.

DB: C-123’s or C-130’s?

DJ: Yeah, we drove our Jeep and stuff right up in there and they took us to some airstrip up in the mountains. You know, it sounds funny but — for a surveyor to say — but the truth of it is I hardly knew where I was half the time, because I — they didn’t really tell us everything like that. We just — you know — we’re going over to the Firebase Nancy or —

DB: Deal with the immediate circumstance?

DJ: Yeah. Do your work and — you know? I remember — you know I was in mountains a lot and we were along the sea quite often. But most of time we were up in the — up to Tay Ninh and up in that area — around up in there. But — then we did get kind of in the delta a little bit too. It was a big — a big area. And we were in support of a lot of different units. Our artillery was. Up by Nui Ba Dien and Cu Chi and that are it was a lot of Twenty-Fifth Infantry that we were with. So — sometimes we’d get sniper fire. One time we were surveying and we had actually sometimes bad security with us. Some infantry (telephone rings) and —

Pause in recording

DB: When you’re ready I’ll start.

DJ: Okay. As I was saying that sometimes we had — protection — infantry guys with us that would go ahead of us when we were surveying. One time they got ambushed and lost a few guys. We could hear the fire fight, but they were maybe a mile up the road from us so we couldn’t really —

DB: This was on a convoy going in?

DJ: No, this was when we were actually surveying. We’re actually running our survey.

DB: They’re our sweeping the area?

DJ: Yeah, they were like security. You know?

DB: Mm-hm.

DJ: It depended on the area. Sometimes it was fine — we could be by ourselves. But sometimes we’d get some sniper fire and sometimes on convoys something would happen. One time we were on a convoy up around Tay Ninh and we heard an explosion ahead of us. When we got there it was — had been a — what do you call it — a lambretta? Those little —

DB: Oh yeah, little Vietnamese three-wheeled vehicles.

DJ: Yeah. It was full of kids. You know how they could pack them in there. Either hit a mine or somebody shot an RPG at the convoy and hit them. They were going in the opposite direction on the road and — so we tried to help. That was most — you know — horrible things I saw was all these kids all blown up and trying to put like the right arm with the right the kid. It was really bad. So. Another time I got lost. Me and my recorder —

DB: Just the two of you?

DJ: Yeah we got —

DB: Your recorder as a person or a machine?

DJ: A person that walks with you and writes down all your readings. And we were surveying along the sea — along the South China Sea.

DB: Walking? Or with a Jeep?

DJ: Walking. And somehow we got separated from the guys that were measuring the distance — got way ahead and everybody must have got together and we were by ourselves.

DB: Sometimes it’s easy to get caught up sightseeing. It’s a beautiful country.

DJ: Well, it was beautiful and we had to — we saw a village and we knew that’s kind of the right direction where they should be. So, we walked through this patty, but it was dry, and we saw little bits of cloth everywhere and we going, “What the heck’s going on here?” But here it was the patty that everybody was using for a bathroom that year. You know they were —

DB: Fertilizing it.

DJ: Fertilizing it, yeah. And we got to the village and it was so pastoral with like palm huts. They had round boats that they’d go actually in the sea with. They reminded me of the buffalo boats they had there in our country. Only they were made out of reeds, woven together of some sort. But they — the people weren’t very unfriendly. I could feel the — it didn’t feel good.

DB: Feel hostility?

DJ: Yeah. We walked through that village and it was like I could feel eyes on my back.

DB: Are you armed?

DJ: We had our M16s and I usually had a M-79 too. But I had to carry my instrument. So we were loaded with stuff, but we were — we both could feel the — they were not a friendly village to put it that way.

DB: So where did you find the rest of your team?

DJ: Well, we kept wandering. We wandered through the village and there was a little tiny — you know — one of those little roads about six feet wide for their scooters and stuff. We finally ran into the rest of our crew (laughs).

DB: Were you reprimanded for wandering away? Or?

DJ: Well, we weren’t reprimanded, but I think they thought it was funny that surveyors get lost, you know. But, surveying — you would think you’d know exactly where you were on the big scale, but really we were doing something on a small scale in a big place, you know, so.

DB: Did you have maps with you then?

DJ: We did have maps, but we didn’t, as instrument operator, I didn’t have a map.

DB: No, somebody else on a team had one.

DJ: Yeah, and not with me. Usually we were all spread out, you know, doing our jobs. Yeah (laughs). So, that was kind of a scary time, but — most of the time I felt pretty safe when we were surveying. Like I said, they’d have security if it was really a hot area. We were up near the Cambodian border a lot. My unit was in Cambodia when I got there.

DB: Part of the incursion?

DJ: Yeah. But you know, we actually — we had artillery in Cambodia even after they said no one was in Cambodia. You know, the end of the Ho Chi Minh Trail was really near to Nui Ba Den and the Tay Ninh and that area, so. It was a pretty hot area. You know on the firebases we stayed at them all the time. And sometimes in our convoy we’d have to stay overnight at someone else’s firebase — some other unit — before we got to where we were going. Couple times we even stayed in these like little cement compounds that had CIA and Vietnamese security. You know we’d just slept there basically is what we did. Then we moved on.

DB: Describe a fire — a typical firebase.

DJ: Well, a typical firebase — the ones that I was at — had a — usually a perimeter that had a berm pushed up with dirt. And then every so often there’d be a bunker — sandbag bunker — and then there would be concertina around it — concertina wire and claymores set up. Then within the firebase there’d be bunkers that people stayed in. Later at the —

DB: Living bunkers?

DJ: Yeah, living ones. At — for instance at our camp — our firebase at Nui Ba Dien, they brought in these culverts — big culverts, tall enough to stand in. That would be a section of that and they’d put — they’d use like ammo crates on the end. Then sandbag the whole thing in so it would be — it seemed pretty safe from rockets and things — mortars. They were not the cleanest and often really muddy. Really — you know you’d walk around and have six inches of mud under your boots. You could hardly walk. That’s when it was raining. When it was dry of course they were dusty. I was blonde back then and I looked like I had red hair a lot of the time from the convoys and the dust. The red dirt you know? Yeah.

DB: Did you have good — good relations with gun units you were supporting? And with the support — the infantry that was supporting them?

DJ: Yeah I think we did, pretty much. I mean they really depended us to be able to do their job and often their job was — you know they needed to do it. And they needed it quickly and —

DB: Technician that came in to do something specific.

DJ: Right.

DB: That had to be done.

DJ: Right. And oftentimes they would start firing right — soon after we’d finish our work. And sometimes I was there and I — you know they’d — you’d hear the radio — radio squakin’ and guys in the gun crews would paint kills on their — if they had confirmed kills they’d put a little slash on their — on their — you know the platelets in front for flash.

DB: Right. Shrapnel plate.

DJ: Yeah. Yeah so I knew sometimes that I felt responsible almost for those slashes, you know. And I had some trouble with that. You know, I wanted to do my job well because I knew lives probably depended on it if, you know, a bad artillery round could take out innocent people very easily. You know, the infantry ran into that happening more than once. I didn’t want to be the cause of any of that.

DB: What are you hearing from home?

DJ: Well, from home it’s — when I’m in the field I don’t write letters, but whenever I get to the rear I write a bunch of letters. I write them every day. Long ones —

DB: Which is about how often?

DJ: Uh maybe — maybe one month — one week out of a month I would be in the rear. Sometimes more. The longest I was ever out without getting back was like three weeks. And that was, you know, rough as far as clothing and eating — keeping yourself clean.

DB: Were you dependent on the supported unit for food and —

DJ: Right. Yeah, we’d eat their food and — we took C-rations with us and we ate those a lot. But if we spent the night at a firebase, whoever it was, you know we could eat at their mess hall and — usually run into people that were friendly and show you around. Occasionally there were people that weren’t that friendly — maybe they resented our easy job comparing to theirs, perhaps. I thought sometimes, you know? But for the most part — you know — if you were American, the other Americans were — would help you. Even if you were hitchhiking or — you know a couple times I had to hitchhike when I came back from R&R and that kind of thing. You know, they picked you up. They were supportive.

DB: What’s the word from your wife? From home?

DJ: Well —

DB: Or from your parents?

DJ: She’s getting more and more pregnant of course. What happens is my — her parents decide they don’t like California and they move back to the Twin Cities. They moved to New Brighton and he bought a house there. They got a job. So she moved back to Minnesota. But my parents were still in California. She’s getting pretty pregnant. She’s telling me, “Oh I can feel the baby move” and this and that. Then after the baby is born, I find out — you know — might have been a day or two later I got a telegram from the Red Cross. It was — you know everything was so — it took like three weeks to get a letter and everything was so removed.

DB: But you got the telegram real fast?

DJ: I got the telegram pretty fast, yeah. And it was a girl and you know she — they had the weight and everything. Then I got letters and pictures — she sent me pictures and it seemed kind

of unreal to me, by that time. Because that was — that was in October. I’d been there since July. So, I was already feeling kind of a — like I was living in a different reality. It was — I was very happy — to have a child and later of course we started sending cassette tapes to each other. She would send me cassettes where she was trying to get the baby to — you know — say, “Goo goo” and stuff, you know. It was like so kind of surreal because you’d be sitting in a bunker on guard duty listening to this tape of a gentle woman trying to get a baby to talk. I remember once I was listening to one and a RPG came right through the bunker — didn’t hit anything or anybody.

DB: In the fire port — out the door?

DJ: Yeah, just went right through and went out. Blew up out in the wire — hit and blew up. (laughs) I was like, “I got to keep my head down when I’m listening to these tapes.” Yeah so those tapes were really nice. I’ll have to say that when I got home it was like a suitcase full of letters and tapes — a big suitcase.

DB: You’re able to save everything when you’re over there?

DJ: Yeah, saved them all. And she saved them all. But, we didn’t keep them. I kept one tape and I don’t know it’s— burnt everything. I was — I don’t know. I just didn’t feel that good about everything and I wanted to forget it kind of move on.

DB: You uh — you went on R&R with some Australians. You went to Thailand.

DJ: Went to Thailand. Yeah — and I enjoyed that. I liked Thailand and the people were nice. I bought silk at the silk market for my wife’s grandmother. She lived to one-hundred and four and she was a really good seamstress. I sent her some beautiful silk and she made a beautiful dress that she wore at special occasions after that.

DB: That she did or your wife did?

DJ: The grandma did.

DB: Oh, okay.

DJ: She made it. I got a nice set of china over there and sent it to my father-in-law and mother-in-law for you know keeping my wife and baby for me (laughs) at their house. I just gave that china to my daughter here a while back. Yeah, Thailand was nice. I went to the Gem Market and the Gold Market. I bought some gold and I bought an opal — a couple opals I guess I bought. I got my wife a really nice opal ring for really cheap — like twenty bucks or something, you know. And had some good food and went to a nightclub that had a comedian, and music, and dinner and all that. Was a real nice.

DB: What were the Australians doing?

DJ: Drinking beer. (laughs) They had a pretty wild time there. Yeah a lot of guys you know they found a woman to be with for the time they were there. But I was married and — so I didn’t

engage in that. The people at the hotel really liked that about me. They took care of my stuff and made sure I got on my plane. No one stole anything — everything was really nice. I enjoyed that.

DB: So you came back. Did you have — you came back to Vietnam — did you have to come and go from Camp Alpha at Tan Son Nhut?

DJ: I — yeah I did go — I did leave from Tan Son Nhut and came back there. When I got back I was like — I was almost like getting there the first time. I couldn’t hardly believe I was back to that reality after the nice time and the freedom in Bangkok. It was a shock again, you know to get back. I had to hitchhike from Tan Son Nhut to Long Binh and eventually to Camp Price. I kept, you know, got rides.

DB: Was that a difficult process or a scary process? Or just —

DJ: At the time it didn’t seem scary or difficult.

DB: Was it a choice? Wasn’t there regular — Long Binh isn’t that far from — from Saigon.

DJ: There may have been buses or something, but I didn’t know about them.

DB: So you decided to hitchhike?

DJ: Yeah, I hitchhiked. Actually in my civilian clothes that I wore in Bangkok. I did get in a little scolding for that, but —

DB: From?

DJ: From when I got back to my unit. I think the commander — commanding officer — you know said I should have been in uniform. But I don’t even know if I had a uniform with me actually, so.

DB: And you’re what, a Sp/4?

DJ: Yeah I was a Sp/4 then. Yeah — so we had a lot of rockets there and we had — at one of my jobs as a surveyor we had to — if we took incoming rockets — go out and measure the crater and the angle so that could — had some formula. Then they’d return fire. But of course the people that shot the rockets had moved before you could ever get all that figured out. But it was my job and I didn’t care for it much, but they reassured me — my sergeant said, “Well, they try never to hit the same place twice. So if you’re measuring that hole, they’re gonna shoot it somewhere else.” But that wasn’t that reassuring to me actually. One time they took a rocket at — I was at Camp Price, and I wasn’t in the field, and they took rockets at the Ninetieth Replacement during morning formation. I had to go over there. By the time I got there and there was no way they could ever return fire with any — you know.

DB: Yeah.

DJ: Accuracy or anything, but there were a lot of guys that were, you know, messed up from that one.

DB: You mean wounded?

DJ: Yeah, wounded and some dead. Maybe seven dead or —

DB: These were guys coming or going?

DJ: Coming or going yeah. Yeah, most of them were just new guys that just got there.

DB: Welcome to Vietnam.

DJ: Right. That really kind of hit me hard. Because they were innocent, yet you know. But yeah.

DB: Now you’re getting to be an experienced guy — one of the guys in the more worn fatigues that you saw the first day.

DJ: Right. Right.

DB: And how are you feeling about everything?

DJ: Well, I’m — you know you get a — I don’t know I got an attitude of either — either I’m gonna make it or I’m not. And there’s nothing I can really do about it. Just do my job and, you know, try to be safe. But you can’t be scared all the time. So, yeah I felt bad for new guys and I tried not to be unkind to them. But —

DB: You’re living in — when you’re in the rear — you’re living a barracks of sorts?

DJ: Yeah.

DB: And you’ve got mixture of people living in there? Did you have any troubles or worries with barracks thieves?

DJ: There were problems. Sometimes people drank too much and got violent. You know, would want to fight or that kind of thing. There were some people — there were thieves. You know how the military is — there everywhere. You have to keep your stuff pretty secure. But, mostly in my barracks everybody got along pretty well. I think there was more — were more problems up towards the NCO club.

DB: Where there was more drinking?

DJ: Yeah. There were people that drank all the time — every night. You know, I (laughs) it wasn’t for me.

DB: Yeah. There was a lot of drinking in those days. What about — what about drugs? Did you see much of that?

DJ: Uh some. People — there were people that smoked pot and I think there were a couple of guys in our unit that were heroin addicts.

DB: In your — on your survey team?

DJ: No.

DB: No, just in the bigger unit?

DJ: Yeah, I don’t think anybody in the survey team smoked pot or really drank that much. A couple of them would have a few beers and —

DB: They were more — professional.

DJ: Right. But, those guys would come in at — you know, from the firing batteries and they’d been in the boonies for weeks on end. Some of them would get pretty drunk and want to fight and that kind of thing. One of the suicides I saw was a guy like that. He — some barmaid or whatever in the EM club — I don’t know he had crush on her or something —

DB: Is this a Vietnamese woman?

DJ: Yeah. But he came out and he’s like, “I’m —” He was screaming and yelling — really drunk. He ran to his hootch and got his M16 and — “I’m gonna kill myself.” And some of us were sitting outside and we started to go towards him. He fired a burst on the ground towards us, so we stopped. Then he just shot himself — yeah. Right in the head and over a —

DB: He’s gonna show that barmaid.

DJ: Yeah.

DB: Yeah. What’s the point?

DJ: Yeah, that was a real shocker for me.

DB: Were there other suicides?

DJ: Yeah, there was a —

DB: And what were they about?

DJ: Our Chaplin’s assistant — he had tried to get a conscientious objector status before he ever got in the military or got drafted, but he could never get it. He kept trying even in Vietnam — writing letters and trying to get it. Then one night my friend from Chicago, Bill, — he and

were outside of his hootch and we heard a shot. We, you know, ran in there and the blood was running out from under his door. He just — he actually really did have sincere feelings that he shouldn’t be in a war.

DB: But he’s a chaplain's assistant — he’s got a —

DJ: I know.

DB: He’s got a non-combat job (telephone rings).

DJ: Right. Yep. The chaplain’s assistant really had — his conscience was bothering him. He was either from a religion or a belief that it was totally against war and killing. He felt even though he was a chaplain’s assistant and didn’t do that stuff himself, he was taking part in it by doing anything. So, he finally gave up and committed suicide with his handgun. Later our interpreter who had been there for more than one tour, he lived in the villages half the time and had a wife — a Vietnamese wife — and children.

DB: This is an American guy?

DJ: An American guy. He wanted to either bring them to the United States or he wanted to stay there. He wasn’t making any progress either way. They weren’t gonna let him stay for another tour. He went in a bunker at a firebase, and I was there, with a grenade and said what he was gonna do. Everybody was trying to talk him out, but they weren’t standing real close to him. Even the commander of the firebase — everybody was pleading with him, but he pulled the pin and blew himself up in the bunker. I think that didn’t do his wife and children any good.

DB: No. Didn’t anybody any good.

DJ: Right, yeah. Anyways (paper rustling) there were suicides and — you know I — we talked about that one— one of big things that I remember, because it’s Christmas Eve. We were at the firebase Mace at the — Nui Ba Den — the mountain Nui Ba Dien, which was — it’s the Black Virgin Mountain or Black Women Mountain translate. They have a lot of — it’s the only mountain on a plain, so it sticks up. It’s all by itself. It was an ancient volcano. Really rugged and they had the whole thing riddled with tunnels. They had the mountain and we had a little base on top and a base on — the firebase — on bottom. Christmas Eve was supposed to be like an unofficial ceasefire or whatever. So everybody was relaxing. A lot of people were drinking. They had a big attack on the base on the bottom. They started out just —

DB: This is the base where you were?

DJ: Yeah. I was happened to be there. Our survey crew was staying the night there.

DB: So it wasn’t your regular base? You were supporting on this base?

DJ: Right.

DB: You were a visitor?

DJ: Right.

DB: Temporary duty?

DJ: Yep. They started raining rockets and mortars down from the mountain into the camp. Then they sent in sappers and then they had ground probes. Actually some VC got in and were running around inside.

DB: Where were you during this?

DJ: I was on top of a bunker with an M60, but I couldn’t tell — because it was dark —

DB: Who’s who?

DJ: Who’s who. I remember my sergeant screaming, you know, “Get on that 60! Get on that 60!” But I didn’t want to shoot Americans and I couldn’t — it was so dark. Anyway, then they sent Cobra gunships in with rockets and mini-guns. Then with Puff, the plane, and they worked out of that mountain for a couple hours with rockets and mini-guns. I remember watching the tracers — look just like coil or a spring all the way to the earth from that plane.

DB: You didn’t have the dusters in this camp?

DJ: Yeah, they had dusters.

DB: They working on the mountain too?

DJ: Yeah, everybody was — it was a horrendous racket— everybody was firing away. Then after a couple hours of Cobras and Puff they stopped. Everything got quiet again, but — every Christmas Eve I get in kind of a, not sad, but I get in a kind of weird — I can’t forget because it’s Christmas. I just remember it even though I don’t want to.

DB: Did you lose many — many Americans on the base?

DJ: Um, I’m not too sure. They lost some I know. There were a lot of VC killed.

DB: Sappers that got in, were they able to do any damage?

DJ: They did some damage.

DB: Blew up some bunkers?

DJ: Yeah. It was probably the biggest — the most firing and most action, really, that I was in.

DB: This is Christmas of 1970?

DJ: Yep. Yeah so, and then another time I was — we were surveying along the sea, South China Sea. Having the instrument, which was really fine optics, I saw some sampans up the beach — maybe, who knows, a couple miles — unloading stuff. Our guns weren’t — we weren’t done surveying, but we called in navy guns on them. Then later I thought to myself, well what if they were just fisherman or something? Chances are they weren’t, but. It kind of bothered me anyways. Another time our mailman was — he was killed — he was hit with an RPG — his jeep. Our firebase — I think it was Nancy up in the mountains — they took incoming fire and it hit the ammo dump. Several of our guys were killed at that one.

DJ: I remember that it was so beautiful at that firebase. There were huge boulders and a lot of mud, but it was really, really a beautiful place. Then another time we were on a small hill setting up. We got the survey done and the guns were ready and everything. All day long there were these rumors — Oh intelligence says there’s a large NVA force. We were surrounded by mountains and there was a small road below. There’s a large NVA force coming, working their way down towards us. We were on high alert. During this time, one of those trucks — a Vietnamese truck — broke down on the road below us. You know how some of them were — they have their pigs, and chickens, and their whole family, everything in this truck —

DB: It was a regular truck — it wasn’t a Lambretta?

DJ: Right, it was bigger than a pick-up but, you know, was an old beat up truck. They had kids, and people, and — they were working on it all day and they couldn’t get it going. Everybody was going, “Oh, they’re probably counting’ our weapons” and “They’re probably spies” and that. They had a — everybody was really tense. Right after dark, they had a mad minute — I don’t know if you guys had those ever, but everybody opens up into the jungle and just a show of weaponry and force, I guess.

Oh, everybody and I knew by the way people were acting — they were all gonna open up on that truck. And you know there was a family. I don’t think they were really spies. I tried to stop them, you know while they were shooting. I was yelling, “Stop!” Well, in the morning course there was nothing there but some wreckage. I don’t know if the people got away or if they were there, but.

DB: Dead animals?

DJ: Couldn’t really tell any — it was just a pile of rubble basically, because everybody was shooting at it, the quad-fifties, and the dusters, and the M60s, and even people with M60s — everybody was —

DB: Yeah.

DJ: A bunch of people even left their posts on the side — one side of — in over there to shoot at that. It really was a mad minute, because they went mad as far as I was concerned. I kind of had a, like a panic attack from that. I just had feelings for the people. I knew a Vietnamese family and (clears throat) her children were — one was in the air force and one was in the navy,

one was in the army serving in the South Vietnamese Forces. She was so afraid of the Communists because the Viet Minh had destroyed her home when she was a child and killed their animals. I had a lot of sympathy for those people.

DB: Stuck in the middle a lot of times.

DJ: Yeah, yeah. You got to stick with your own, but sometimes my feelings were really mixed about what we doing. So –

DB: And did you have many experiences out on the economy with the Vietnamese? In the villages?

DJ: Um — not a lot, but since we traveled so much —

DB: Go through towns?

DJ: We were going through towns all the time, and rubber plantations, and villages, and — you know — villas. I did take a — one of those two day R&R’s at Vung Tau on the beach there. So I — I don’t know. Since I — I think partly it was because I was married and had a child, I had more empathy than some guys did about some of the stuff that went on there, you know. Some people — I mean saw a guy run over a kid on a bicycle with a duce and a half.

DB: Just maliciously ran him over?

DJ: Yeah, yeah and nobody said anything and everyone was afraid to turn him in or anything, cause a guy like that might, you know, shoot you when you’re sleeping or something for — cause he was, you know, kill crazy or something.

DB: Yeah, so what happens to that person when he comes home?

DJ: Exactly.

DB: How to they readjust?

DJ: I thought to myself sometimes that some of the guys that were over there if they wouldn’t have been there they’d have been serial killers or something. They —

DB: They might have been.

DJ: Yeah they had a license there to — and you know if they killed the wrong Vietnamese they just payed the family a few hundred bucks or whatever for a funeral and stuff and moved on. I knew they were people with feelings like, just like us. Some people — I never called them Gooks and I was never derogatory towards them because I think it really was because I had my own family. A lot of guys were, you know, pretty much on their own.

DB: So as your — as your tour starts to wind down, you’re getting short. You got a baby at home. You got a wife at home.

DJ: Right.

DB: And what are you thinking?

DJ: Well, what happened was — it was Vietnamization time and they disbanded my — they sent my unit home. Our colors and everything.

DB: The artillery?

DJ: Yeah.

DB: With the group?

DJ: Well, they — everybody that was short enough went home, but you know the weapons went to other units. We who didn’t have — weren’t short enough to go home got put in other units.

DB: So where did you go?

DJ: I don’t even know the name of the unit. I just did mostly guard duty for my last couple months. We guarded American bases that were abandoned and empty. They’d have a small crew of guys, you know.

DB: Just closing things out.

DJ: Yeah, just keep security to keep people from coming and stealing things, I suppose.

DB: Pretty boring?

DJ: It was boring and depressing. I had really mixed feelings. I felt bad that we — that woman I was telling you about — when our unit left she just burst into uncontrollable tears and —

DB: Who’s gonna protect her.

DJ: Yeah. So I felt really bad.

DB: She probably knew pretty well what would happen.

DJ: Yeah, she did. And I felt like kind of guilty that we were leaving, really. Although I didn’t think it was the right thing maybe to begin with. I felt we were abandoning lots of people that liked the Americans and supported us. So I had some feelings about that and also I was — I came through unscathed and so many people were killed. I just felt — the last couple weeks

before I came home it was almost like I didn’t want to come home. I wanted to — see my wife and baby and everything, but I —

DB: You felt obligations and survivors guilt.

DJ: Yeah I felt — I felt some guilt that we were leaving those people. I’ve always wondered what happened to that family that I knew. I met her children and everything. They probably went to reeducation camps if they lived.

DB: Yeah. Maybe they got — maybe they’re boat people? Maybe they’re living in Southern California? Who knows?

DJ: Yeah, yeah. Our guide we had when I went back to Vietnam, he told me around that mountain, Nui Ba Den, where I spent a lot of time up there — was past Tay Ninh. They figured — the government figures 10,000 Americans were killed in that area during the war and probably 100,000 Vietnamese. That’s — you want to know why they had so many tunnels. It was a camp — what do those things you hang keys on and stuff around your neck?

DB: Dog Tags?

DJ: Um — I can’t think of it. They give them to you.

DB: Dog Tags? Your I.D. tags?

DJ: No, I mean things — lanyard. That was — we had a firebase called Lanyard. It was right in the Parrot's Beak and like this much of it faced Cambodia all around, you know, it was that far in that beak. It was really rough up there. My buddy Bill had to help clean up like two hundred bodies one day.

DB: North Vietnamese?

DJ: Yeah. And I just thought about, you know, all the horror and all the lives wasted. They never got, you know, have children or —

DB: Lives cut short.

DJ: Right. So, I had some struggling with that and then, you know when I got home I was —

DB: What was the process of coming home? Did you go back through Cam Ranh Bay?

DJ: I did not. I went right from — I went to 90th replacement.

DB: In Long Binh?

DJ: In Long Binh, and then they sent me to — I think I flew out of Tan Son Nhut. I flew — I think landed in Hawaii on the way home and I think Hong Kong. It was way different than the

way over. In Hawaii I was on like a commercial plane with civilians from other places. The customs guy in Hawaii dragged me out of line and they actually put me up against the wall, and kicked my legs apart, and frisked, and —

DB: Checking for drugs?

DJ: I think so.

DB: Yeah.

DJ: And then they took me into a room and did the whole, you know — body search.

DB: You were in uniform? Obviously.

DJ: Right. And —

DB: Khakis? Still in jungle fatigues?

DJ: I think I was in khakis then. And then they brought me back because you know I was clean and then boy the people on the plane — none of them would, you know, have anything to do with me. I was just, you know — like — I was ostracized, I guess.

DB: Pariah.

DJ: Yeah. So, I was kind of angry about that and I stayed mad at Hawaii for like twenty years. I wouldn’t go there or anything I thought eh. When I got back we — I remember we were on a bus and I saw people, and they were driving and having a nice time, eating their McDonalds and all this. I thought, You don’t even know what’s going on.

DB: Did you come into San Francisco?

DJ: Yeah — and processed out — I got out of army right there because I extended — I stayed in Vietnam long enough that they let me out when I got back. My family wasn’t real happy that I extended.

DB: How long did you have to extend for?

DJ: Well, I don’t know it was — well July, August — about another third of a year or so.

DB: Mm-hm.

DJ: Yeah and you know they didn’t want me to, but I always wrote them, “We’re in the pool today” and because, you know, cause I had that — Camp Price had that pool and I never really wrote too much about things that were going on over there, because I didn’t want them to worry. But, a couple years ago my mom gave me a stack of letters that she saved. I read through them and I remembered the incident of some of our security guys getting killed while we were

surveying. I’d forgotten about it until I read those letters. There were things that I guess I just sort of — you know.

DB: Yeah, time goes on — the memories go away.

DJ: Put it away. Right.

DB: So, what was your plan when you came home?

DJ: Well, I wanted to —

DB: You’re out of the army very quickly with twenty-four hours —

DJ: I was out, had my steak dinner, and they made — gave me all my ribbons and stuff. They made us wear them — wear our dress uniform when we left. But, outside the camp my wife was there with my parents and my daughter — I met her for the first time. She was — oh it was September and she was born the previous October so she was just about a year old. She took one look at me and, you know I was hugging her mom and she (laughs) that was it —

DB: Did like that.

DJ: She didn’t like me.

DB: Who is this guy?

DJ: Yeah, she started screaming and crying. But, we grew very close later. Took her a little while to get used to me. So, yeah I went — we stayed in California for a while. We went to — down to San Francisco and visited a friend from high school who was on a ship off the coast of Vietnam while I was in Vietnam.

DB: Navy guy?

DJ: Yeah, navy guy. We went and visited him. I felt so — he had a big party and all these, you know, young people were there — my age, but totally —

DB: Different world.

DJ: Yeah, totally different world. I felt really out of place, and awkward. We left and flew back to Minnesota. We stayed at — in New Brighton for a week or two. That’s when my brother-in-law got his legs cut off. I was like, “I thought I was done seeing this stuff!” You know?

DB: On the train accident.

DJ: Yeah — yeah. We got called to the hospital a couple of times, they thought he was not gonna make it. But he did.

DB: What plans did you have for your future?

DJ: I wanted to go to school.

DB: Had the G.I. bill. You were twenty-two?

DJ: I was — see I turned twenty-one in Vietnam. I was —

DB: Pushing twenty-two.

DJ: Pushing twenty-two, yeah. I went back to our old stomping grounds around Inver Grove Heights and South St. Paul. I went to community college — Inver Hills Community College.

DB: G.I. Bill.

DJ: Yep. Just to see. And I really liked it. I liked all the classes and I did well.

DB: What were you studying?

DJ: I was just taking anything I wanted. Anthropology I liked and —

DB: Just wide ranging — just fishing?

DJ: Yeah.

DB: For a topic?

DJ: Yeah. I really enjoyed going to school and I took some creative writing. Then after — it was two years — I knew I had to go somewhere else to school and I really couldn’t stand the Twin Cities. There were parts that I liked, but I didn’t like all the people and the crowds. So —

DB: Is this a new feeling since Vietnam?

DJ: Yeah.

DB: Trouble with crowds.

DJ: Yep. So, I — I didn’t like standing in line at Target. Everywhere you went you had to wait in line. So, plus I felt a little different than other people in my generation being a veteran. But I hooked up with some Vietnam vets at school.

DB: You knew a lot of guys. You bumped into a lot of Minnesotans while you’re in the service just randomly.

DJ: Yeah and as a matter of fact a couple of those guys I flew over there with — we flew back together too. We got together in the Cities a few times.

DB: So you had a group to — that you could connect with.

DJ: Yeah, one of them became a licensed private surveyor. He’s probably retired now, but he became a professional land surveyor.

DB: How was relations with your wife? That’s a — you’d known each other for quite a while before you went in the service. Then you go off and have these completely different experiences and you come home and you’ve got a child and a whole new world.

DJ: Right, right.

DB: How did that go?

DJ: Well, she thought I changed a lot. That I was not the same person. She thought somewhere in there was the same person, but I was — you know I had — I said things, I was — I hurt my mom’s feelings when I said something about Nixon. She’s — my mom started crying and, you know, “What happened to my son?” Before I went I was kind of a joker and I wasn’t really when I came back. I was kind of a I don’t know —

DB: More serious?

DJ: More serious and maybe kind of ornery even. But, I did okay in school and I had those friends — couple friends and I didn’t like my old friends anymore — from before I went. I tried to do stuff with them, but I didn’t — we didn’t relate. They were still into hot rods, and sports, and things that to me didn’t seem to matter anymore. So, I decided to come up here. Since I had a lot of good times in childhood up here I thought, Well I’ll go to school up here. So, I —

DB: In Bemidji?

DJ: Yeah, so I transferred to BSU.

DB: Your wife’s okay with that?

DJ: Yeah, she was. Yeah she wanted to get out of there too. It was just, you know we didn’t have any money so we had to live in practically the slums. It was rough where we lived. There were gangs and you know. So yeah, she was — we rented a little cabin —

DB: You mean where you lived in St. Paul? It was rough?

DJ: Right.

DB: So coming up here was better?

DJ: Yeah.

DB: Okay, I got you.

DJ: Yeah so we rented a little cabin on the lake and it was so peaceful. It was really good. You know, I kept going to school and I finished — I was like one class short of an English Lit degree. I took an art class — I needed an art class for one of my electives or — and I went “Oh this is for me.” So I totally switched to art and went for a couple more years. Then I graduated with a — just a B.A. in Art. I thought, Well I’ll be an artist (laughs). Well —

DB: It’s a tough life.

DJ: You don’t paint ducks around here or geese or something, you’re not gonna do so well probably. It’s pretty tough, so I ended up doing a lot of commercial type art. What happened was I — my buddy bought this eighty acres and there was an old abandoned farmhouse. So, we moved from our cabin on the lake to this abandoned farmhouse with the pump outside — a hand pump. Just wood heat and an outhouse. We lived there for about a year. We had a nice garden and I started silk screening on the porch and painting signs, airbrushing. Then I bought twenty acres from this half of this forty. We just cut a trail in here from the road and pulled a camper in here. We lived in here in a camper for a couple years. We didn’t have any water for a year, so we hauled all our water on a toboggan in the winter from the old farmhouse over there. Pump it and haul it here. We bathed in an old washtub.

DB: Your wife’s okay with this?

DJ: Yeah. She was —

DB: Sense of adventure?

DJ: Yeah, I don’t know. She just didn’t give up on me I guess, you know. We lived off — a lot off the land. We ate a lot of deer, and rabbits, and squirrels. We had an outside shower in the summer — a tank I had between the trees and a pallet to stand on with a little nozzle. I was — I graduated and of course I couldn’t get a job. I got a job for a dollar-something an hour cutting brush along township roads. So that’s what we were living on. One day a lady came out from the county and I said, “You know, I have a college degree. I should be doing something better than this.” and she came back a couple days later and she said, “Might have a job for you at the County Surveyor's Office.” So, I went in there and the guy — the County Surveyor was an army veteran and they had just bought a theodolite. None of them knew how to operate it.

DB: And you did?

DJ: And I did. So I was hired on the spot and it was great.

DB: Now you’re going to have a real job and a real income.

DJ: Right. Right, it was — you know it was —

DB: And you were ready for it?

DJ: A miracle. Basically we actually — we hauled in — we bought a brand new mobile home and moved it in here. My County Surveyor boss took me to the bank and introduced me to his loan officer, because I didn’t have any credit or anything. Got me a loan. So, then all of a sudden we had a well, and electricity, and heat, and we still heated with wood. So, I just built this thing on — this room on the side. I built this room in nineteen seventy-nine probably. I just worked out of here. I sold signs and a lot of t-shirts, and caps, and jackets to bars and resorts.

DB: On the side? Because you’re still a surveyor?

DJ: Right, but I only surveyed for a couple years and my boss went to become the Ramsey County Surveyor. The guy that replaced him, he hadn’t been in the military and he was — I just couldn’t get along with him. So, I just struck out on my own. I put an ad in the yellow pages and we made a living.

DB: Doing the artwork?

DJ: Yeah. Right here. My wife helped me. I’d go out and sell — make sales, you know. I had a little flyer and a business card. Had a lot of samples. We sold a lot of stuff — I even sold a big order to the National Park up here — the — I forget the name of it, but. The one where they canoe and Vo –

DB: Oh — Voyagers.

DJ: Voyagers. Yeah I sold a huge order to them. I had a contract with Continental Grain — I printed their jackets for those guys. So I had some really good orders and stuff. So I decided “I’m gonna apply for a SBA loan and become a real business.” I did and it took me about a year to get it. It was a Vietnam Veteran’s Loan. I had to call the VVA in Washington and they helped me. So, I got a shop in town and some new equipment and stuff. Eventually I just — it was too big of a move. You know I had quite a bit of business, but I had competitors that were local and supported more locally by the banks and stuff. Eventually I — you know — lost my business. I lost everything — I lost my place and my land, because I had to put it all up. So the bank rented it to me for a couple years and then they sold it back to me. Then eventually the guy that bought my equipment went broke and the bank sold my equipment back to me. So, I was still back here where I started.

DB: Without the competition that you had before?

DJ: Yeah, it’s a lot easier working out of your house. You’ve got low overhead, you know. So, I decided, “Well, we’re making a living, but we can’t afford to buy a nice car — a new car. We can’t put any money in a pension fund or anything. We have no health insurance.” So I said —

DB: You’ve got how many kids now?

DJ: Two then. I decided — yeah I had my — we had my son ten years after my daughter. They’re ten years apart. I decided, “I need to do something like a real job with a pension plan.” So I went to BSU when I was about forty and got a teaching license. I subbed for a while and then I got a job in the district.

DB: Teaching art?

DJ: Teaching art. I taught art for about twenty years in the district here. And you know life got better, but I never did build a new house or anything. I just kept remodeling. I just thought, Well what’s the point? This late in life. So I’ve lived in here for forty-some years — forty-one years I think.

DB: And now you’ve got grandchildren living on either side of you?

DJ: Yeah. Yeah and life is good, you know. I go to group — couple of veterans’ groups. I have a lot of veteran friends.

DB: And — recently you went back to Vietnam? What was that experience like for you?

DJ: Oh it was wonderful. It felt — I don’t know, kind of a sense of relief and kind of a redemption because the people seemed happy and prosperous. People were working.

DB: You went back to the site of your camp too?

DJ: I did. I went back to Nui Ba Den, where we had the Christmas Eve battle — or Christmas Night, whatever it was. I also went to Xuan Loc, where we had a firebase and it’s a big city now. But, Nui Ba Den meant a lot. Now there is a park there and a tram that you can ride up the mountain. So we went up the mountain. There’s a Buddhist temple up there. We brought tobacco ties and Native American — they were tied in little pieces of cloth — as a kind of an offering. I asked the monk, but he couldn’t understand me. But we tied them up there — just in memory our family and everyone else that was affected by that mountain, I guess, and everything that went on there. It was so wonderful to see a beautiful park and these well-tended and manicured grounds. All the shrubs were shaved and it was just beautiful. The temple on top was beautiful.

DB: See the recovery?

DJ: Yeah. It was so good — really good for my heart and my soul to go back there.

DB: And you’ve got another trip planned?

DJ: Yeah, we want to go back again. We’d like to go to north now and maybe into Cambodia as well. We were near Cambodia on this trip. We got to a road sign that said Cambodia with an arrow that way, so I knew it wasn’t far. Our guide said he could go in there whenever he wants — they don’t care about — I would need a visa, you know being an American. He took us to a restaurant — a Cambodian friend had a restaurant near Tay Ninh and they had little grills and we

barbecued slices of beef and all kinds of veggies, and even some stuff they picked in the jungle — different little plants. It was really good. I don’t know it’s hard to explain the feeling to see a — my last memories of Vietnam were destruction and frightened people. Then watching the fall of Saigon on TV in ‘75. Just was really good to go back and even to be welcomed by Vietnamese people. It didn’t seemed like they hold any grudges. They still like Americans. And the country I always thought was beautiful and it’s even more beautiful now without firebases, and barracks (laughs) and you know.

DB: No scars on the land.

DJ: Yeah, the scars are pretty much gone. I did see a couple of crate — bomb craters that they’ve kept, you know, for tourists to look at. I saw a guillotine that the French used on people. They have one in Saigon. I saw some of the horrors and I — at the museum they had a big photographic exhibition of the war photographers from all over the world that were there during the war. They meet there every year, but every year there’s less of them because some die.

DB: Everybody’s getting older.

DJ: Yeah, and they had the whole third floor of the museum was dedicated to this exhibit. The people of —

DB: Of their photographs?

DJ: Yeah, of these war photographers photographs. Some of them were Pulitzer Prize Winners and very moving. I went there just for that one day — just to go through the photo exhibit and while I was there I was watching TV in the hotel room and they were interviewing — on Vietnamese TV they were interviewing the photographers — some of the photographers. They were doing it in English, so I could understand the whole thing. It was — one of the things that struck me a lot about it was the exhibit was sponsored and funded by the people of Kansas.

DB: Hm.

DJ: Yeah, they had a big sign up and it was like wow.

DB: The people of Kansas — that’s —

DJ: Yeah, maybe one of the photographers came from Kansas or something? But somehow they got this grant to put this thing together. Said, “Sponsored by the people of Kansas.” So there — you know there’s a lot of forgiveness and moving on.

DB: It’s also a very young population over there.

DJ: Right. Young people everywhere with their cellphones and —

DB: Did you go to Cu Chi, where they have the tunnels?

DJ: Did go to Cu Chi.

DB: Were there any Vietnamese army Veterans there? Part of the tour?

DJ: Um — there were a lot of guides and our guide dressed like a Vietnamese veteran. He had Ho Chi Minh sandals on, and a booney hat, and kind of a green uniform.

DB: Like a North Vietnamese soldier?

DJ: Yeah, like an NVA. But, he wasn’t even born during the war.

DB: Yeah.

DJ: But he was so happy that I was — had been an American soldier and he wanted his picture taken with me. He was — once he found out I was a veteran, he was just so kind to me. He sort of took a personal interest during the whole tour in Leah and I. I ran into that more than once over there. Our guide’s father was a ARVN, and he lost part of an arm and part of a leg up in that same area around Cu Chi and Nui Ba Den. He was so glad that his son was guiding an American soldier. He was really happy.

DB: It’s pretty amazing, isn’t it?

DJ: Yeah.

DB: Yeah, well good luck on the next trip.

DJ: (laughs)

DB: I’m sure it will be interesting.

DJ: I’m looking forward to it. I ran into some guys that even are retired over there.

DB: Yeah, yeah. It’s cheap living.

DJ: Right.

DB: Good living, yeah.

DJ: Yep. We don’t want to leave all our grandkids, but I can see going for a while every, you know.

DB: Yeah, to visit.

DJ: A warm place is a warm place. I did got back to Hawaii a few years ago too and I was okay. I wasn’t mad anymore (laughs).

DB: They didn’t search you this time.

DJ: Not they didn’t (laughs).

DB: Yeah, yeah. Okay so any closing thoughts?

DJ: (exhales) Well, I know that a lot of veterans say, “I would never go back there, I could never go back” but I think if they did they’d feel good about it.

DB: Good — a good way to open a door and close it maybe?

DJ: Yeah, that’s what I think. You know when I go there — when I was there after — it was very emotional going to those places where I had been, but it was good emotion. You know? It opened me up and — I don’t know — it made me feel better. Everyone needs to do something. There’s — I know other vets that are still very angry and not happy. Gee we only get one time at this life and there’s no sense spending it all mad. It’s good to get out there and feel forgiven and forgive and be happy with life. You know?

DB: Good point. Okay. Thank you very much.

DJ: Thank you.

End of Interview