Third Session·Thirty-Fifth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD)

39-40 Elizabeth II

Publishedunder the authority of The HonourableC. Denis Rocsn Speaker

VOL. XLI No. 91A -1:30 p.m., MONDAY, JUNE 22, 1992

ISSN 0542-5492

Printedby the Office of the a-s Printer. Province of Manitoba MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thlrty·FifthLegislature

Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY ALCOCK, Reg Osborne liberal ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BARRETT, Becky Wellington NDP CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights liberal CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHEEMA, Guizar The Maples liberal CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CONNERY, Edward Portage Ia Prairie PC CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACOUAY, louise Seine River PC DERKACH, leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert,Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James liberal ENNS, Harry, Hon. lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Clif Interlake NDP EVANS, leonard S. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface liberal GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland NDP HELWER, Edward R. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster liberal LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NDP McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC NEUFELD, Harold Rossmere PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry Ain Ron NDP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. FortGarry PC WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NDP WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP 5167

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, June 22,1992

The House met at 1 :30 p.m. WHEREAS the Dutch elm disease control program is of primary importance to the protection PRAYERS of the city's many elm trees; and WHEREAS the Minister of Natural Resources ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS himself stated that, "It is vital that we continue our READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS active fight against Dutch elm disease in Manitoba, " and Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the WHEREAS, despite that verbalcommi tment, the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard governmentof Manitoba has cut its funding to the Evans), and it complies with the privileges and city's OED control program by haH of the 1990 level, practicesof the House and complieswith the rules. a move that will jeopardize the survival of Is it the will ofthe House to have the petitionread ? Winnipeg's elm trees. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that: the government of Manitoba may be pleased to The Brandon General Hospital is themajor health request the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. care institution for southwesternManitoba ; and Enns) to consider restoring the full funding of the Dutch elm disease control program to the previous The citizens of Brandon and southwestern level of 1990. Manitoba are deeply concerned and disturbed about the downsizing of the hospital andview it as As in duty bound your petitionerswill ever pray. a threat to the quality of health care in the region; and Introduction of Guests The Manitoba government has chosen not to Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct review the current budgetto ensure that cutbacks to the attentionof honourable members to thegallery, vital services do not occur; and where we have with us this afternoon, 85 students of the Atlantic High SchoolBand from Atlantic,Iowa. The administration of the hospital has been forced They are underthe direction of Brettlee. to take drastic measures includingthe elimination of On behaHof all members, I would like to welcome the Palliative Care Unit and gynecological wards, you here this afternoon. along with the layoffof over 30staff, mainly licensed practical nurses, to cope with a funding shortfall of ORAL QUESTION PERIOD over $1 .3 million; and Aboriginal JusticeInquiry WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be Recommendations pleasedto request thatthe governmentof Manitoba Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. consider reviewing the funding of the Brandon Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier and General Hospital. Minister responsible for Native Affairs.

*** The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry has been in the government's hands for close to 12 months now, an I have reviewed the petition of the honourable inquiry that stated that the justice system has failed member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), and it complies Manitoba aboriginal people on a massive scale. It with the privileges and practices of the House and has been insensitive and inaccessible, and it has complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to arrested and imprisoned aboriginal people in have the petition read? grossly disproportionate numbers. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the The report went on further to state, in its province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: conclusions, that governments and others must now 5168 LEGISLATIVEASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

accept the responsibility to make the changes that office. They have developed over hundreds of cry out for action. By acting now, governments can years in Canada. We all accept collective give positive expression to the public support and responsibility for the justice system that we have left good will we have encountered from Manitobans behind and which has been so beautifully during the past three years of our inquiry. commented on and graphically commented on by I would like to ask theDeputy Premier: Why have the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, Justices Sinclair and we waited virtually a year for any action from the Hamilton. government? Why do we not see positive and Mr. Speaker, the government again says we will strong action to implement the very, very many be doing something. The government has had this recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry reportfor a year. It has put $1 million into a budget. and return justice to Canada's first peoples in All it does is go from press conference and press Manitoba? release to press release saying it will do something * (1335) some day. Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. I would like to ask the government: When is it Speaker, first of all, one should recognize that these going to establish a legitimate partnership as problems did not just develop in the last four years. recommended in the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry? They have been somewhat during the term of office When is it going to take the real action that has been of the members opposite and previous recommended in the recommendations of the governments. Therehas been a long-term problem Aboriginal Justice Inquiry? Are we going to wait which the members are acknowledging. anotheryear, and anotheryear afterthat? When is What we have done is to assemble the different it going to take action on these great departments and jurisdictionsthat are responsible recommendations for the people of Manitoba? for justice in the nativecomm unity, the Department Mr.Downey : Mr. Speaker, the other thingthat has of Justice, the Department of Family Services, the taken place is there have been some proven Department of Native Affairs, to sit together in mechanisms that are working. My colleague, the working committees to implement some of the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), just recently recommendations that are within the responsibility announceda $1 00,000 program for the YouthCourt of the province. system in the Island Lake community which is very I can report,Mr. Speaker, thatwe have had these well received. I would call that action, working committees now working for some time. demonstrated action and commitment, by this There was some reluctance on behalf of the government to assist in areas of Justice. aboriginal community to join with us. We are Mr. Speaker, as well, I have said we have proceeding regardless of whether or not the established our working committees to work in aboriginal community joins. partnership with the communities. We have We believe there are someinitiatives that have to recently met with the Indigenous Women's be carried out. We will carry them out, and we want Association of this province and have indicated to the support of the aboriginal community to do so. themthat we are prepared to assist with the meeting Meetings have taken place. I think, Mr. Speaker, activities that are to take place. What we do not we will see some positive initiatives flow from the want to do is put the scarce government resources process that has been established. in the establishment of committees and reviewing Mr. Doer: A year and half ago, when we asked and reviewing. We want to provide action. The whether, in fact, the government's only response to monies that we have available we want to put into the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry would be to internal programs, not further bureaucratic and/or global committees of government, the government said no, umbrella organizations that do not get on with the they would look forwardto a new partnership arising delivering of services. We want to get on with some out of the recommendations of the Aboriginal action. That is what we are doing. Justice Inquiry. Mr. Doer: The minister will note that the Island Yes, the Deputy Premier is absolutely correct. Lake Tribal Council originally received the Justice These conditionsof justice did not emanate with the body, originally received its money from the Law three or four years that this government has been in Reform Commission, a bodyestablished by us, and June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5169

now it is being received by the aboriginal people Canada-Manitoba Labour Force Development through the aboriginal justice fund. That has not Agreement. been changed; that is the maintenance of a According to the Ottawa office, the Yukon signed program. I wouldlike to ask-(inte�ection)-Well, the this agreement in '91 . Nova Scotia signed in '91 . Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) says downsize British Columbia signed in August of '91 . New and other terms. Brunswick signed in '91 . Quebec has an interim Mr. Speaker, pnte�ection] the Minister of Justice agreement with the money flowing in '91 . Ontario (Mr. McCrae), who went from endorsing, on CJOB, signed in October '91 , Saskatchewan in August '91 . the concept of aboriginal self-government and Alberta has an agreement in principle. aboriginal justice committees to the tepid response Newfoundland is close to an agreement. P.E.I. is that he gave last year, I suggest that we need real close to an agreement. action from our Minister of Justice. Could the Minister of Education tell us when Mr. Speaker, in Estimates we asked, for three Manitoba will sign that agreement? hours, the Minister of Justice to table the specific action and specific programs the government would Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education take with the specific amount of money that they and Training): Again, Manitoba has not signed have allocated of $1 million. I would like to ask the that agreement; nor has Alberta signed the Deputy Premier today, given the fact we could not agreement; nor has Prince Edward Island signed get answers in Estimates before: What specific the agreement; nor have the Northwest Territories action and proposals will be articulated and signed the agreement; nor has Newfoundland developed out of the $1 million in the financial signed the agreement. Estimates of the government? We have not In Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, we are looking at the received one answer to date, nor have the aboriginal details of that agreement very carefully. We want to people of this province received any answers to date on that except for the $100,000 that has been be sure, within that agreement, the interests of reannounced. Manitobans are protected. We are consideringthat agreement, and we will be signing when we are * (1 340) satisfied those conditionsare met. Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, so that the public are Ms. Friesen: Could the minister then tell us why clear and everyone understands, the money from last week she postponedfor twomonths one of the the Law Reform Commission, I believe, was some key consultations between labour, business, the $39,000, just under $40,000. equity groups and educationalparticipants and thus ! call it a major commitment to increase that delayed, yet again, the participation of Manitoba in amount of money to $100,000 to a program thathas this agreement and prevented the dollars from demonstrated that it is working. We have as well flowing? established four working groups to recommend, to work together, to implement furtherthose things that Mrs. Vodrey: I would like the member to be more are doable within the abilities of the Province of specific because I have certainly made every effort Manitoba. Many ofthe recommendationsfall within to facilitate the meetings. the federal jurisdiction, and it is impossible for the I personally have met, as well, with province to take on those responsibilities. representatives of the Canadian Labour Force There are some things within the provincial Development Boardand have made a point of being mandate that can be carried out, Mr. Speaker. That in contact across this province with other interested is what we want to do. We do notwant to establish groups in regard to this development agreement. large consulting groups. We want action groups. Ms. Friesen: Can the minister explain why the provincial participation will be composed of existing Labour Force Development Agreement programs, when those programs were developedin Government Participation the absence of any provincial labour force Ms.Jean Friesen(Wolseley) : Mr. Speaker, since development strategic plan, and certainly without the beginning of this session, the government has the local participation which is crucial to this been promising announcements on the signing of a program? 5170 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mrs.Vodrey : TheCanada- Manitoba Labour Force Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, would the minister Development Agreement is our effort to better tell theHouse today: Exactly what is the framework co-ordinate the federal and the provincial efforts in for the development and enhancement of those terms of training. national standards? If they are going to be into the We are lookingat how the federal money will flow agreement, in which way are they going to be in the agreement? Will they be constitutionalized, since into this province through that agreement and how labour markets' training is one of the things that is that moneywill be apportioned to training programs, being offloaded to the provinces ifthe rolling text is but the province also remains very committedto its correct? training programs, programs such as Workforce 2000, which have been a great success in this Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, let me separate the two province. issues again. The issue of any devolution of training from the federal government is a constitutional issue which is being dealt with by my Labour Force Development Agreement colleague responsible for Constitutional Affairs. National Standards The Canada-Manitoba Labour Force Develop­

Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second ment Agreement is not a constitutional issue. It is Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we hear today about an an agreement betweenthe province and the federal agreement which is clearly an example of the government to co-ordinate labour market strategies devolution of powers from thefederal government and ourefforts towardstr aining. There is a section to theprovincial government, andyet, we have been within that agreement which deals with issues assured over and over and over againthat we have relating to apprenticeship, specificallythe Red Seal no constitutional deal. Yet, it would appear that in Program. I am in contact with my colleague the the field of labour market training, we are going Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) regarding that ahead and signing deals for which, if the material particularissue. presented to us today in the newspaper is any Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, it appears that we example, there are no national standards. are entering into constitutional deals by the back Can the Ministerof Educationtell us what are the door. specific negotiationswith regard to the maintenance Ifthe Mi nister of Education is saying that there is and enhancementof national training standards in nothing in this deal whatsoeverthat deals with the this nation which is every Canadian's, including Constitution-because she passes that question every Manitoban's, birthright? on-then how does she accept or how does she rationalize thefact thatthere is a negotiatedstrategy • (1345) which, in essence, takes thefederal governmentout Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education of training? and Training): I am glad the member has allowed Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, the issue relatingto the me to speak about the newspaper article which in federal government and thedevolution of training is fact references twoquite separate issues. There is the constitutionalissue which I have explained to the the issue of the Canada-Manitoba Labour Force member, and that it is being negotiated by my Development Agreement, and that issue, Mr. colleague the Ministerresponsible for Constitutional Speaker, is the effort to co-ordinate the training Affairs. programs federally and provincially. That is quite separate from the issueof the devolutionof powers A separate matter is the Canada-Manitoba in the constitutional talks and those I am in contact LabourForce Development Agreement. Wrthin that with, my colleague the Minister responsible for agreement, we are focusing on the co-ordinations Constitutional Affairs (Mr. McCrae), in regard to that of thefederal-provincial efforts sothat those efforts particularissue. do not work at cross purposes.

In regard to the Canada-Manitoba Labour Force Eating Disorders Development Agreement, the issue of standards is Treatment Programs a very important one, and it is very interested in addressing the issue of national standards across Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Mr. this country. Speaker, treatment resources for eating disorders June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5171

seem tobe drying up right across this country. Now, expect me to justifydecisions made in Alberta. That we have learned that the future of Manitoba's only would seem to be-l will admit, we do a lot of eating disorder clinic is uncertain. This is wonderful things in the ministry of Health and in this particularly worrisome for women, since anorexia government, but I do not think I can quite account and bulimia usually occur in women, and according for Alberta's program. to Manitoba's own Women's Health Research In Manitoba's program, the proposal is to move Foundation, has doubled in teenage girls over the the services to an out-patient basis and to reinforce last 1 0 years. and strengthen community linkages with that I would like to know ifthe minister has looked into program. the situation at the Health Sciences Centre where The last time I checked, my honourable friend we have heard of talks about cutsto that program. constantly encouraged governmentto move away Can he give us assurances that the full range of from institutions into community-based programs. treatment for eatingdisorders, including appropriate Now, when a proposal comes forward to do exactly overnight care and 24-hour supervision, will be this, my honourable friend says, well, that is no available? good. Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend has to Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. decide whether she believes in community-based Speaker, in my honourable friend's preamble, she care or whether she wants to maintain themodel of referred to programs across Canada that are being everything being done in hospitals. curtailed or wound down in terms of assistance to One of the problems with the health care system overcome eating disorders. I cannot comment on in Canada is that we have turned into bedoholics. what is happening in other provinces, but I can We try to attach everything to a bed. When indicate to my honourable friend that the program, progressive health care givers believe they can as discussed, as available through the Health determine and provide program andcare outside of Sciences Centre, is very much alive and well, Sir, the institution in the community, I think that is has beenhandling increased numbers of clients and progressive. proposes now to move that eating disorder counselling, treatment and intervention to an Ms.Wasy lycla-Lels Mr. Speaker, I thinkaccess to overnight care for women when it comes to this out-patient basis service. important disorder, as opposed to being housed in From what I can understand of the proposal, it a psychiatricward , is prettyimportant. may well in factbenefit those recipients of the care, I want to ask the Minister of Health: Sincethis is in that it has less dislocation to the individual from a disorderthat affects women, will he acton behalf their community, from their home, from theirfam ilies of the interests of women and do what Manitoba's and friends, all of which all of us have acknowledged own research council has recommended, and that in this House are important components of is increase support for basic services and research treatment, hence the emphasis on more into disorders affectingwomen and ensure that the community-based, out-patient care. full range of treatment is offered to over half the Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, I just want the population- ministerto know I am concerned aboutwaiting lists Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable for this importanttreatm ent and the costs of sending member has put her question. patients to the United States. Mr. Orchard: Now, Mr. Speaker, you will note the 1 would like to know: Howis the minister avoiding tenor of the question has changed away from the kind of situation that happened in Alberta,where treatment to research, because my honourable first, beds for treatment for eating disorders were friend knows full well that the professionals, in closed, then the whole program faded away, and proposing this program shift from an now that government is spending $1 million annually institution-based, based on bed capacity, to an to send patients with eating disorders to the United ambulatory out-patient, community-based service is States for treatment? the appropriate thing to do in today's health care * (1350) reform. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, as my honourable So now that my honourable friend has lost that friend may well appreciate, I do not think one would argument, she has moved on to research. Well, Mr. 5172 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Speaker, I cannot indicate to my honourable friend Mr.Malo way: Mr. Speaker,with that in mind then, whether the Manitoba Health Research Council will what role did the minister have with the arranging provide more and additional resources to research for the sublease between the Winnipeg SportsCar into this disorder, but I will attempt- Club and the aggrieved party in this case, Mr. Mr.Speaker: Order, please. Schwarz? Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, first of all, let me Point of Order make it quite clear. We deal with the person who is Ms.Wasylyc la-Lels: Mr. Speaker, I think­ leasing. We cannot tell a person who to sublease to. Mr.Speaker: On a point of order? However, my staff has been negotiating and has Wasylycla-Lels: Ms. -the Minister of Health owes a Letter of Intent to renew a lease with a sublet. an apology to all thewomen of Manitoba- They must have their permission. They sublet to Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I am recognizingthe many people. I am talking about the Winnipeg honourable memberfor St. Johns. Is it on a point of Sports Car Club, and when they bring forward the order? sublet leases, then they are approved by our legal Ms.Was ylycla-Lels: Yes, I am sorry,Mr. Speaker. department to make sure that they have all the I thought you had heard. appropriate answers. Mr. Speaker: No, I did not. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, is the minister saying then that he did not have final approval on the sublet, Ms.Wa sylycla-Lels: Yes, I have a point of order, because it is normal that in a sublet situation, he because the Minister of Health has insulted all would have final approval? women in the province of Manitoba- Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, I wish the member Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable would listen to me. I saidthere was a Letter ofIntent member does nothave a point of order. It is clearly for the sublet, and that is where it is right now, a a dispute over thefacts. Letter of Intent, until our lawyers see all the forms • (1355) and the agreements, the liability, coverages, et cetera. Then they bring it forwardto my staff. They Glmll Motorsport Park come forward, and we agree to whom they sublet. Lease Renewal- Minister's Role That is in all our leases acrossthe pro vince. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My question is to the Minister of GovernmentServices. Garrison Diversion Project Mr. Speaker, since this government came to Manitoba Interests power four years ago, we have seen a number of Mr.Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my questionable leasing actions from this minister. question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. The director of leasing was removed earlier this spring afterit was discovered thatthere were billings The Garrison Projectin the state ofNorth Dakota for unauthorizedwork beingdone at 280 Broadway. poses numerous well-known threatsto the quality of water flowing into Manitoba and into the Hudson's Will this minister tell the House what role he Bay basin from the state of North Dakota. Political played with the leasingof Gimli MotorsportPark this leaders and farmers seeking irrigation supplies in spring? the state of North Dakota have been tireless in their Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Ministerof Government lobbying efforts in Washington to get funding forthe Services): First of all, Mr. Speaker, when it came completion of this project. On Saturday we learned to me, it was renewal of the existing lease that the that they had succeeded and secured a $30-million previous administration had set up in 1987. commitment from the U.S. administration to push Mr. Speaker, I took the recommendation of my ahead with the Sykeston Canal thereby completing staff to renew the Winnipeg Sports Car Club, to the Garrison Project. renew that, until the end of October of 1992. The Mr. Speaker, can the ministertell members what reason for that is because we are in negotiations position Manitoba's paid representatives in with themu nicipality ofGimli to have them take over Washington, whom we have had for sometime on the entire site. this issue, and this minister's departmentaloffi cials, June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5173

in particular Mr. Clarkson, took with respect to this Manitoba's concerns-those guidelines are being decision to complete this project? adhered to.

Hon. Harry Enns {Minister of Natural • (1400) Resources): I thank the honourable member for If there is anything that develops that should the question, Mr. Speaker. I can inform the House cause us concernthat, in fact, the 1986agreement that the $30 million in question, which was indeed will be broken, then certainly I would kind of look approved by the American Congress for the Garrison Project, in no way violates the 1986 upon this House-in fact, this House has a great reformulation agreement which Canada and the tradition in this regard to act on a nonpartisan basis. government of Manitoba agreed to. We have sent delegations representative of all members of this House to Washington to plea this None of the $30 million referred to can be used case. I would certainly not want to part from that for any expanded irrigation projects. The monies tradition in terms of- that the honourable member refers to have been examined by Canadian Embassy officials and by Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Clarkson, the gentleman that the honourable Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, you will excuse us if member refers to. We are satisfied that this in no we are dubious ofthis minister's ability to safeguard way violates the 1 986 reformulation agreement, and Manitoba's interests. This is thesame government therefore we are satisfied that Canadian interests that relied on the U.S. Corps of Engineers on are not in any way placed in jeopardy at this stage. Rafferty-Alameda. We maintain a watching brief on the projectas you would expect usto, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my final question for the same minister: Can the minister tell members whetheror Environmental Impact Assessment not he intends to content himself with the review of theother ways to achieve cornpletion ofthis project, Mr. Paul Edwards {St. James): Again for the ostensibly without impact on Canada, when his same minister, specifically, Mr. Speaker: Has this departmentalof ficialsin 1990 agreed that thestudy minister been able to secure any commitment from of environmental impacts would be done by U.S. U.S. officialsto date that a full environmental impact officials? Where are Canadian officials and assessment on any effect in Canada of any Manitoba officials in assessing the impact- expansion, be it the Mid-Dakota Reservoir, be it the Sykeston Canal, be it whatever is proposed-! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable understand they are going to be taking it into the member has put his question. Missouri River Basin-will be done on Canadian Mr.Enns: Well, Mr. Speaker, it appears to me that waters in the event that this project is to go ahead we in Manitoba, indeed in Canada, have sufficient in any way, shape or form? environmental problems of our own to resolve, not Hon. Harry Enns {Minister of Natural to denigrate the concerns that were placed. Resources): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to Mr. Bob Clarkson, the senior member of my indicate to honourable members opposite that we department is a standing member of the technical have a senior official representing the government committee that is constantly monitoring any of Manitoba who meets on a regular basiswith North Dakota officials. We have a good relationship with proposed or potential changes to the Garrison the Canadian Embassy in Washington that keeps Project. I have to rely on his good advice. It was and maintains a watching brief on this issue. his good advice that was offered to previous administrations, previous ministers, that led to the I am satisfied at this point that, while I am certainly 1986 resolution of the problem. aware that there are North Dakota interests who would like to expand and indeed set aside some of Mr. Speaker, I do not think that we can expectto the restrictions of that agreed to restriction of the be doing much more than to be diligent, to be overall program which I referred to as the 1986 cautiousand to watch what in fact is happeningjust reformulation program-it is called reformulation immediately south of the line that could certainly, if because it fundamentally revalued and restricted fundamental changes were made, be of concernto the overall Garrison Project to meet Canada and us. 5174 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Policing Services Agreement about any talk of offloading some costs thatwere Fee-For-Service Costs heretofore paid for by the federal government. No Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. one even knows what that entails to this point. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Rural The honourable member does a disservice by Development. The minister has been speaking at mixing the important issue of who is paying what district community meetings of municipalities and he levies for police services with a whole other matter has said there will be a resolve to the policing cost which the federal government does not even know issue this fall. We are hoping that there will be a what it is talking about to this point. So if federalthe solution; it is long awaited. government does not know what it is talking about, However, I want to ask the minister: Has he told I think we can safely assume the honourable towns and municipalitiesthat they are going to have member does not know what she is talking about to pick up extra costs because of the fee for service either. that thefederal government has decided to offload since the RCMP contract was signed? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, by imposing these additional costs, we are going to see a great Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural deterioration of policing services, particularly in the Development): Mr. Speaker, the member was present when I made my presentation during these rural community. meetings. At that time, I indicated that the I want to ask the Minister of Rural Development outstanding issue that was dealt with by the Hill (Mr. Derkach): Will he stand up on thisissue? Will reportwould be one that would be addressed by the he tell municipalitiesand towns that he will oppose joint committee that is being formed withthe input any further offloading by the federal or provincial from both UMM and MAUM. Together with the government, whether it be municipal costs or Departmentof Justice and the Department of Rural policing cos• Development,they will addressthe issuesthat are outstanding in terms of sharing of policing costs. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Mr. Speaker, I have to indicate clearly to the member has put her question. member that in the Hill report,we were dealing with Mr. McCrae: The matter of the levies that the the split of policing costs between rural honourable member is talking about is the subject municipalitiesand the urban municipalities in terms of review by the process described by the of what each would bepa ying. That is theissue that honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. will be dealt with in thetask force thatis going to be Derkach). establishedand is being established right presently. I can tell the honourable member, yes, I will Policing Services Agreement oppose measures brought in by the federal Fee-For-ServiceCosts government to try to collect on expensesthat were, up until this point, paid for by the federal Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Since his colleague the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) has government. We have made it very clear to the said thatthere will be user fees, is the minister aware federal government where we stand on that. of what services will be offloaded, and is he making Indeed, if they persist-[inte�ection) I am having towns and municipalities that he is speaking to trouble hearing myself, Mr. Speaker. aware of these extra costs that they are going to Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable have to pick up? minister to finish his response. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Mr. McCrae: If they persist., I have also let it be Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, as a result of contacts between our government and the federal known that there are areas of expenses, services government, we have ascertained the federal Manitoba provides for the federal government. government does not know necessarily which fees There are things we can look at to watch the they are talking about, they do not know what situation, to ensure that the federal government amounts are going to be involved. We have does not offload in a way that it should not be expressed our concern to the federal government offloading. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5175

Social Assistance Russell, Manitoba Head of Household Regulation Dissolution Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, on Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker,my March 26, I asked the Minister of Family Services question is to the assistant minister of Rural why women are being cut off student social Development. [interjection] There has been a assistancewhen men in identical circumstances are dispute between the rural municipality and town of not. On April 6, I asked the Minister of Family Russell over the town's desire for more land for Services why disabled women are being cut off expansion. They have been unable to come to an provincial social assistance when men in identical agreement, so the town is considering dissolving circumstances are not. Both times, the minister itself and joining the R.M.-{interjection] Does he said the regulations were underreview. want to answer the question? The town is considering dissolving itself and joining the R.M. Has the minister conducted the review? What against the wishes of the R.M. action is he taking? My question is for the Minister of Rural Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Development. Has themi nister or his department Services): Mr. Speaker, yes, the member raised met with the two parties in an attempt to mediate a the head of household issue that has been part of resolution? our legislation for a long, longtime. Itis a question that we are reviewing, and we will be bringing * (141 0) forward some thoughtson it towarda solutionof that Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural in the near future. Development): Well, Mr. Speaker, I recallanother incident, where there was a dispute between two Mr. Martindale: Why will the minister notstop this groups and a community. As minister, lindicated at discriminatory practice of forcing disabled women to that time that I would not personally involve myself lose their $60-a-month supplement since this is in the matter when the Liberal Leader went over clearly a violation of the Charter of Rights and there and indulged herself in teaching a class. Freedoms? Why does the minister not order that it Perhaps now she will go and conduct some be stopped immediately? municipal meetings; I am not sure. Mr. Gllleshammer: As I indicated to the Mr. Speaker, specificallyto thequestion, I can tell honourable member, this is a longstanding issue you and tell the House here thatindeed there is a that was part of regulations with the previous potential dispute between the R.M. of Russell and government, part of regulations when we took the town of Russell. Thestaff from the department government. It is an issue that came forward in have indeed offered their assistance to both the recent months and one that the department is R.M. and the town in an attempt to resolve the actively looking at. outstanding issue. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, I raised the issue, Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Speaker, if the negotiations are but it is up to the minister to do something about it. not successful, what will the minister's Why is he waiting for a disabled woman to take the recommendation be to cabinet? minister to court under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, to insist on being treated equally which Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable is a right in this country? Why doesthe minister not member's question is hypothetical. The act instead of waiting for somebodyto take him to honourable member kindly rephrase his question, court? please. Mr. Gllleshammer: I know the member, not being Mr. Gaudry: What contingencies will the minister a partof government,does not realize that solutions have in place to the cabinet? are not always instantaneous that you can make in Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, the member for St. a moment's notice. But I think, perhaps ifhe talked Boniface putsforth a very hypothetical situation. As with some of his colleagues, that he would realize a matter of fact, the intent is to resolve the issue that there are complicated issues involved with this. between the rural municipality and the town. It is an issue that is before the department and one Indeed, they have asked for the assistance; which we are working on. department staff have offered the assistance. We 5176 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

will await whether or not there is a possibility for (Mr. Edwards) be permitted to continue his resolution to the dispute. grievance and that the Speaker issue a clarification of what constitutes a quorum. Plebiscite Briefly, the circumstances leading to this matter Mr. Nell Gaudry(St. BonHace): Will the minister were as follows: On Thursday, June 11, while the offerthe same plebiscite that the Minister of Urban member for St. James was speaking on a grievance, · Affairs (Mr. Ernst) offered to Headingley? it was indicated to me that there was a Jack of Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural quorum in the Chamber. A subsequent count Development): Mr. Speaker, not only is that verified this to be true, and the House was hypothetical, but it is mixing apples and oranges. accordingly adjourned. I can tell you that in this matter, Mr. Speaker, As to the question of whether the honourable pnterjection]No, they do not mix very well. I can tell you that in this situation, the staff from my member for St. James could conclude his 40-minute department have offered their services to both speechon a grievance,when a questionwas raised councils, and indeed the intent is to work about thison the following Monday, I cited subrule co-operatively with both councils in an attempt to 26.1 (3), which clearly statesthat any grievance is resolve the issue. terminated when the House adjourns and shall not be continued or resumed at the next or any Pharmacare subsequent sitting of the House. Therefore, the Exclusions honourable memberfor St. James cannot continue Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a his grievance. There is no matter of privilege. questionfor the Minister of Health. The second partof the motionregar ding privilege I have a constituent, Mr. Speaker, who has a called upon me to issue a clarification of what problem of lowserum calcium becauseshe has had constitutes a quorum. This arose from a quorum parathyroid glandsremoved during surgery, cancer count called on Monday, June 8. That of her thyroid glands. Also, she has osteoporosis, circumstance was as follows: and she has high blood pressure problems. She requires large doses of calcium supplementation, On that day, a quorum count wasrequested. I but she is allergic to the C-based calcium products had been incorrectly informed that a quorum was and cannot take dairy products. She can only present. It was subsequently established that only tolerate Calcium -Sandoz, which is costingher about nine members were present at thetime of thecount. $1 ,000 a year. She is an elderly widow. She is at Under our rules, 1 0 members, including the a very low fixed income, is unable to afford it. Speaker, constitute a quorum. My question to the minister is: Why has the The incident was a breach of order but was not a minister and his department refused to allow this matter of privilege. Additionally, as a breach of person to claim for at least some assistance under order, Beauchesne 319 states in part, "The the Pharmacare program? Speaker's attention must be directed to a breach of Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. orderat the proper moment, namely the moment it Speaker, I will be glad to take the specifics, and occurred.n I wish to advise that the procedure indeed if my honourable friend would care, after followed in recording, by the table, a quorum count Question Period, to share the individual's name, I will pursue the issue with the ministry and provide has been modified to ensure against a repetition. my honourable member with an answer. On a related point, tor the information of Mr.Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. members, when a quorum count is requested, members are requested to rise in their places in Speaker's Ruling order to have their names called and recorded. Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for theHouse. Therefore, any members present in the House but not in their places when a quorum count is On Friday, June 12, 1992,the House leader for requested should return immediately to their places. the second opposition party rose on a matter of privilege and moved that the member for St. James I trust this clarifies that matter. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5177

Committee Changes Standing Committeeon Privileges and Elections be amended as follows: Osborne (Mr. Alcock) for St. Mr.Edward Helwer (Gi mll): Mr. Speaker, I move, James (Mr. Edwards). (Agreed) secondedby the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on House Business Industrial Relations be amended as follows: the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) for the Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld). [Agreed) Leader): Mr. Speaker, I propose to call Bill 101 and, after that is considered by this House, move the I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital supply motion. (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee onPrivi leges and Elections be amended * (1420) as follows: the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) As we agreed the other day, we are going to for the member for Gimli (Mr. Heiwer); the member consolidate the twosections of Supply andconsider for LaVerendrye (Mr. Sveinson) for the member for the four outstanding areas in this order,and I would Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik). [Agreed) ask for unanimous consent, because there is a little I move, seconded by the member for Sturgeon bit of change in the order: the Aboriginal Justice Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the composition of the Inquiry will be the first item, the Department of Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Finance, then the Department of Environment and Resources be amended as follows: the memberfor the Sport resolution. So I would ask unanimous Lakeside (Mr. Enns) for the member for Sturgeon consent to adopt that sequence. Creek (Mr. McAlpine); the member for Lac du Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) for the member for Fort Garry House to alter the sequence in the order that the (Mrs. Vodrey). [Agreed) honourablegovernment House leader has indicated Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): Mr. to the House? [Agreed] Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I will also be asking for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk),that the composition of unanimous consent, first of all, to waive private the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations be members' hour. amended as follows: Burrows (Mr. Martindale) for Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), for Monday, June 22, 1992, private members' hour? (Agreed) for 2:30 p.m. [Agreed) Mr. Manness: Secondly, for the House to sit until I move, seconded by the member for Swan River such time that the 240 hours of the Estimates total (Ms. Wowchuk), that the composition of the have been consumed-that would be roughly, Mr. Standing Committee on Law Amendments be Speaker, I am led to believe, around 6:30 p.m. or amendedas follows: Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for St. 6:05 p.m. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis), for Monday, June 22 at Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House that the 2:30. [Agreed) Committeeof Supply continueon until such time as Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I we reach the 240 hours? The committee Chair move, seconded by the member for River Heights would not see the clock until such timeas we have (Mrs. Carstairs), that the composition of the extended our hours or used up our hours. [Agreed) Standing Committee on Economic Development be Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I would then ask you amended as follows: Osborne (Mr. Alcock) for to seek the unanimous consent ofthe House so as Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), for June 22, 1992, at 10 to reconvene the House tonight at 7 p.m., at which a.m. [Agreed] time I would undertaketo do report stage and third I move, seconded by the member for River readings of certain bills at that time and then move Heights(Mrs. Carstairs), that the composition of the on to Committee of the Whole until such timeas the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be House decides to rise. amended as follows: St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) for Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the The Maples (Mr. Cheema). (Agreed) House to reconvene at 7 p.m. this evening rather I move, seconded by the member for River than at 8 p.m.? Is there unanimous consent? Heights (Mrs. Carstairs), that the composition of the [Agreed) 5178 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Also, is there unanimous consent of the House and the House resolve itself into a committee to that the Chair does not see the clock until whatever considerof the Supply to begranted toHer Majesty. time? [Agreed) Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I will make into a committee to consider of the Supply to be announcements this evening as to furthersittings of granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member standing committees dealing with bills tomorrow. I for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for will make those announcements this evening after Aboriginal Justice Initiatives, the Department of further discussions with opposition House leaders. Finance, the Department of Environment, and Fitness and Sport. ORDERS OF THE DAY • (1430) Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader}: Mr. Speaker, would you call Bi11 1 01 . COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS ABORIGINAL JUSTICE INITIATIVES

Blll1 01-The Statute Law Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay}: Order, Amendment Act, 1992 please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committeeof Supply is Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the dealing with the Aboriginal Justice Initiatives. For honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), Bill reference purposes it is on page 153 of your 101,The Statute Law Amendment Act,199 2; Loi de Estimatesbook. 1992 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives, Would the minister's staff please enter the standing in thename of the honourable memberfor Chamber? Brandon East. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East}: Mr. Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas}: Madam Speaker, this is a type of legislation that includes a Chairperson, I would like to start off by saying that I lot of detailed amendments to existing bills and, think we haveabout an hour on the AJI again today therefore, it is most appropriate to deal with it in and I welcome the opportunity to question the committee. So we, in the official opposition, are Ministerof Justice (Mr. McCrae) again with respect prepared to pass it at this time with further to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report that was considerationin detail when it gets to the committee released, it will be almost a year now. stage. I would like to begin by saying that I hope this Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition afternoon's Estimates process will be a little bit House Leader}: Mr. Speaker, we, too, would like better than the last time onJune 4. I hope that my to see the bill go into committee in which we will find questions will not be regarded as being stupid, as a more appropriate time to be able to go through it having a bad attitude. I wouldhope that the minister clause by clause and possiblyadd commen ts at that would answer atleast some of the questions that we point in time. are going to be asking him this afternoon. Mr.Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Madam Chairperson, it is my hope that in this The questionbefore the House is second reading of afternoon's session I will not be treated like a little Bill 1 01 , The Statute Law Amendment Act, 1 992;Loi boy and be lectured and scolded. I, like the de 1992 modifiantdiv erses dispositions legislatives. minister, wantto be treated as an individual, as an adult, as a member of the Legislative Assembly Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the representing a riding of both nonaboriginal people motion? and aboriginal people. Some HonourableMembers: Agreed. I would like to, again, begin with the question of Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. the budget that was set aside for the AJI report, and Hon. James McCrae(Ac ting GovernmentHouse I would like to ask the minister to see ifhe can give Leader}: I move, seconded by the honourable us a report or a budget that would tell us how the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. million dollars was going to be spent exactly, the Driedger), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair million dollars that was set aside for the AJI report. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5179

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and process which is approval by government, and then Attorney General): Madam Chairperson, it had the program is implemented. been our proposal that flowing from the Aboriginal That unfortunately will happen-fortunately and Justice Inquiry reportthere would be struck working unfortunately. Fortunately because efforts will be groups to assist the government in prioritizing those made; unfortunately because it will not have the recommendations in the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry degree of supportor inputfrom aboriginal leadership report which were found acceptable to the that we would like to have had. However, we have government, prioritizing them and working with $1 million in the budget for this year, and I can tell aboriginal leaders to help us decide which areas of the honourable member that, for example, Manitoba required attention most. Sagkeeng tribal justice system, there is a request As the honourable member knows, the reportsets before usfor $272,41 5 to study thestudy. We have out in graphic detail some of the problems a request from the MKO justice secretariat. They associated with the justice system as it applies to want $554,645.80 further to study the study. We aboriginal people in Manitoba. We had hoped that have one from the Indigenous Women's Collective, the working groups referred to would have helped a $60,000 request to study the study. We have one us in identifying areas of need. We know there is from the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, $281 ,855, general need in the justice system and in other funds requested to study the study. We have a areas of public service, but we know also that the request for $50,745 from the Island Lake Tribal expertise in terms of the needs of the people is Council to study the study. probably betteramongst aboriginal leaders than it is amongstourselves. Madam Chairperson, if my arithmetic is correct that amounts to $1 ,21 9,660 and some oddcents to However, to this point, aboriginal leaders have not study the study, and not one thing will have been seen fit to join us in this project, so we announced, done to help aboriginal people. So we could not go since we last talked, support for the St. Theresa along with that approach. We have togo alongwith Point Indian Youth Court to the tune of $50,000 a the approach that says, let us use that money to put year for this year and next, and $50,000 is now programs in placefor people. deducted from the $1 million as laid out in the Estimates book. * (1440) We cannot wait forever. We feel the needs are I would like to be more specific with the too great for us to wait forever; however, we knew honourable member, but announcements will be that there was support for the St. Theresa Point made in due course about initiatives that will come Indian Youth Court proposal amongst aboriginal forward, and those announcements will have been leaders, so we felt comfortable in proceeding. Now the result of work done by the working groups and as we proceed,as the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) by the departments and by the government. We said earlier today in Question Period,we cannot wait would like verymuch also for thereto be involved in forever, and we will not wait forever. that work the leadership of the aboriginal people of this province. If they choose not to do that, we will Itwould be unfortunateif we proceededwith other not use that as an excuse to do nothing. projects, and those projects were not the subject of discussion or support from aboriginal leaders. I Mr. Lath lin: I am not going to dwell anymore on the cannot be more specific with the honourable million dollars, Madam Chairperson, but I would like member, because flowing from the working to ask the minister some further questions on the groups-let me give the honourable member an AJI. He gave us a list ofsome five proposalswhich example. A proposal is placed before the justice he says totals some $1 .2 million. He also makes it working group in the area of courts,for example, and clear to usthat he is notprepared to spend money there is no one represented on the working group to, like he says, study the study. Perhaps I can ask from aboriginal leadership, indeed no one the minister then, if he is not prepared to fund these co-chairing on the part of the aboriginal leadership. types of activities, those activities that I would call, We develop a proposal and the working group finds myself having been on the other side many that proposal to be appropriate to move forward times-consultation money allowing aboriginal with. It then goes through the normal government people to have an input into what will eventually 5180 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

become the final product in the end. I believe that positive. I cannot make federal announcements,so is what the aboriginal people are looking for. I will not, but I can say that the signals I am getting In any event, he is telling this Chamber that he is are quite positive. not prepared to spend that kind of money on those So there is a program that could be seen as a kinds of activities. Perhaps I can ask the minister model for aboriginal justice proposals. One of the then, what other proposals are there, because I other ones mentioned by the Justice Inquiry itself know he has received quite a few proposals, was the DOTC child weHare service. That was held program proposals ashe calls them? For example, up as a model, I believe, by the commissioners of there has been one there that has been going back the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. The honourable and forth from the Swampy Cree Tribal Council; member will know thatparticular service is currently there have been proposals to establish tribal council being reviewed through an inquest being held in police forces. Brandon. Suffice it to say, we should await the Maybe I could ask the minister to indicate to us, report ofthe inquest,the judge doing the inquest in because he was kind enough to give us a list offive that matter, so we will hold any furthercomment on proposals which he did not agree with so therefore that point until that time. did not fund them-maybehe would like to tell us how There are any number of proposals, and they many other proposals that would fall into the come from, as the honourable member has category of programs and services that he has suggested, the Swampy Cree. There is more than received and has not funded. Maybe he could give one Swampy Cree proposal, I believe. There are a us reasons why, and perhaps, thirdly, tell us what large number ofthem, and theyare exactlythe kinds criteria he is settingout in order for him to fund these of things that we would take before our working types of program proposals. groups dealing with-1 can speak more for courts, Mr. McCrae: I repeat for the honourable member police and corrections than I can for Natural the factthat we have decidedthat the funding for the Resources or Native Affairs, but I can speak in St. Theresa PointIndian Youth Courtis something general terms about those things. we support. That program is not a new one; the The kinds of proposals we are getting from honourable member knows that. It is a worthwhile numerous and various aboriginal groups and program, so we are funding thatprogram . communities are exactly the kinds of things we Similarly, Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council propose to putbefore our working groupsand make Probation Services have been funded by this decisions about which programs are the ones that government, 50-50 with the federal government. meet the greatest need in our communities, We would like to continueto fund that program. The remembering thatwe have very serious problems in signals we are gettingfrom the federal government our province, and a finite number of dollars to deal are good. They had initially made it known that their with them. plan was to withdraw from funding that program. In many cases, whenyou lookat the budget of the That makes no sense, as the honourable member, Departmentof Justice and the amount being spent I am sure, would agree. It is a good program. on policing, on courts and probation services, very I have been active with the DOTC probation often it becomes clear that after an initial transition people in attempting to lobby the federal people to it may be even more efficient to operate services see if we cannot get them to look at that matter locally. It makes them more efficient in a monetary again. In doing that, I have made public statements sense but also more effective in a cultural sense. H on behalf of the program. I have written to the you are looking at results, very often results are minister responsible, the Honourable Doug Lewis, achieved. St. Theresa Point, I believe, is a good spoken directly and personally with Joe Clark, the example and so is DOTC Probation. ministerresponsible for intergovernmental affairsor So all of the proposals that I have-1 mentioned whatever his title is these days. five of them, but I did not mention the others He took my entreaty quite seriously, I believe. I because the others are not strictly to pay for further also had the opportunity, personally, to talk to Mr. study of matters that have literally been studied to John Tait, Deputy Minister of Justice,with regard to death, and we need to spend the money on that program and the signals I was getting seemed programs. There is no need for me to give the June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5181

honourable member an itemized list of all of the own-as he sees it, what seems to be the main proposals, because he has that information problem. available to him through all of his contacts. Mr. McCrae: I suppose, simplistically put, I could Sufficeit so say, those proposalsand government say the problem is we do not have the participation proposals and variations of the two, sometimes of the leadership of the aboriginal people, but that combinationsof the two,would be the kinds of things indeed is too simplistic, so I need to go on and go that we would proposeto discuss at working group behind that. Ali i know is what I read in the papers meetings. It would be nice if there were as does thehonourable member, andof course that representation there from the aboriginal groups that reflects some of my personal meetings with people we have identified as the ones we wish to consult like Phil Fontaine as well. The problem seems to with. However, if they choose not to be there, we have been on January 28, I think it was, when we will not allow thatto be an excuse to do nothing. announced our response to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report, and when we did not embrace in all Mr. Lathlln: I know the ministerkeeps mentioning its dimensions the concept of separate justice the Island Lake-St. Theresaproject, but I also know systems, that seems to have strucka note thatwas that, like he says, that projectis not a new project. not positive with the leadership of aboriginal people. It had been going on for quite some time prior to the time when the funding was going to be injeopardy. I think of various forms of apartheidthat operate After, the St. Theresa leadership had to travel to around the world, and I think there does not seem Winnipeg and lobby government and hold some to be any model that I have seen that really works, press conferencesand talkto opposition parties and so why do we have to talk about apartheid? Why so on. can we not talk about gettingtogether and solving problems for people? For somereason, thatis seen So it took a lot of workfrom that community, the by some as a rejection ofthe whole idea of separate pressure that they put on the governmentto try to systems, so I sometimes get very frustrated and make the government understand that this was a think that what we are talking about basically is a worthwhile project. amI glad, I appreciate, that the semanticdisagree ment. government finally understood what the community was trying to say, and they finally understood that I look at the St. Theresa Point model and say, it the program was a worthwhile program-very looks pretty separate to me. There is no expensive, I might say. I understand also that the involvement by people outsidethe community that I feds have already agreed to continue funding the am aware of except in the consultation area, DOTC probationary programs- information sharing area. I do not see anything wrong with that, and theif honourable memberdoes • (1450) he could say so. There have been very, very few Mr. McCrae: Not formally- cases over the years of the operation of the St. Theresa Point justice modelthat have beenreferred Mr. Lathlln: -notfor mally, but I know,from talking to the provincial court system for disposition, very to the people at DOTC and listening to the news few indeed, so I say that seems like a pretty myself, I was given to understandthat thefeds had separate system to me. already agreed to continuefunding. So perhaps the provincial government would see its way again to Yet that system does not operate outside our continue the 50-50 cost-sharing arrangement that Canadian constitutional framework. They are not they have with the federal government. operating with a charter of rights, for example, that operates outside the Canadian Charter of Rights I want to ask the minister now, Madam and Freedoms. As far as I know, they are not Chairperson: In his opinion, what seems to be the operating outside the Criminal Codeof Canada. So main obstacle that is preventingthe minister or the I think it is just a question of definition, and it seems Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs or the aboriginal a shame to me that here we are still quarreling over people from getting together and working towards a thing like that. some sort of a strategy or a plan that could be implemented that would address the The fact is thatChief Phil Fontaine, as a condition recommendations that were contained in the AJI of his participation in the working groups, has said, report? I am interested in hearing the minister's well, we need money and we need to put more 5182 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

things on the table. Goodness gracious, and not more expensive and bureaucratically responded, we have enough things on the table to cumbersome. keep us busy as working groups when you look at So having put thaton the record, Chief Mathias, the recommendations of the report that the who is one of the spokespersons there for the government is prepared to look seriously at, and to Assembly of First Nations, was not so sure that it work together with aboriginal groups on, in order to would not be more expensive than what it is now. achieve results for aboriginal people in Manitoba. He could notput any numbers on it and that is not a Why, because of a semantic argument, would the surprise. I do not expect him to. What Chief chiefs and the others stay away from making a Mathias saidwas a little bitat odds with what I have positive contributionaborig to inal justicemodels for been hearing around here in Manitoba and that is Manitoba into the future? that self-government would be more culturally So the honourablemember asks me, what seems sensitive, more appropriate, people would have a to be the main obstacle? I guess I have answered sense of partnership and ownership in their own thatquestion, and maybe he would like to talk to Phil systems, and there would be efficiency that we do Fontaine himself andget Phil Fontaine's version of not have now. it, but money is one of them. They want money to So that is not entirely clear, but I think it is study the study and we have agreed that the important to Canadians that it be clear, it either is co-chairson thosecomm ittees should be aboriginal more efficient or it is not. If it is less efficient then representatives. We felt that was a step forward, that would be a concern, but I just do not think it and something that was useful to offer to the would be less efficient. I think if it is done properly aboriginal leadership. They seemed to accept that, it can be more appropriate and more efficient, and but then they left the room saying that money was a good example of that is St. Theresa Point, and one problem and so was this business about another one is the DOTC Probation. separate systems. Going withseparate systems, of * (1500) course, is putting other things on the table, things additional to those things the government of Mr.Lat hlln: Madam Chairperson, I am not so sure Manitoba has already said it wouldagree to. whether the question of financial resources is the-yes, it is a contributingfactor. I will accept that, I guess the listof things we would agree to is not but my sense is thatthe reasonthe minister and this long enough, but I say it is certainlylong enoughto governmentand the working group are having such keep any working group busy for quite a long time, a difficult time in getting some sort of a working and also long enoughthat we could spend a fair relationship with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs amount of money. If I hear what the chiefs of this is that, I believe, there has been a souring of the province tell me, the money ought to be spent only relationship. Probably the relationship between in a transitional sense, additional money, because aboriginal people and especially this Minister of the message I get aboutself-gov ernment generally Justice (Mr. McCrae) has never beenthat bad, like is that it would be more efficientthan what we have when aboriginal people are working with now and indeed less expensive. This is something governmentmini sters. Lastweek, I spentquite a bit that caused me no end of concern when someone of time up north,and a couple of communities I went at the federalleve l leaked some informationout that to, constituents or aboriginal people are actually self-government was going to cost Canadians 5 telling me, why did you subject yourself to that kind billion additionaldolla rs. of behaviour from the Minister of Justice when you I was very quick to jump all over that assertion were doing Estimates? because I do not believe it, and Mr. Clark, as head They obviously knew what had gone onhere that of the federaldelegation, was quick to repudiate that evening and they were prettyincensed. I could not and said that if he knew who had done thathe would help but get the feeling that I wished this was not the sure like to getto the bottom of how that happened case. I wished the Ministerof Justice (Mr. McCrae) because that is not true. Indeed, I made it known to could maybe have started off on a better footing, a all ofthe people at the constitutionaltalks that it had betterapproach maybe,a friendlier position maybe been my understanding from talking to Manitoba at the start, and then maybe we would not have the chiefs that self-government is actually more efficient problem that we are having today. As firm as the June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5183

minister has been and the government, the two get it back to a level where both groups can be groups have only forced each other to dig deeper talking reasonably. and deeper into the their positions, and neither I think that is what the problem is. I wish the group wants to budge. The minister knows very minister and his colleagues would sit down again well; he is not new at the game. He knows what with Phil Fontaine and chiefs' committee on justice negotiations are all about, but in my sense he seems and see what could be done. That is my wish. to be a good negotiator. Why else was he at the constitutional discussions? He was a good The other thing I wanted to ask the ministerwas, negotiator at the Constitutional Task Force that I sat he talks about funding programs and services that in. I thought he was anyway. he thinks are worthwhile and they might be funded from the million-dollar budget. When the reportwas What puzzles me is why did he not use the same first tabled by the commissioners last August, and approach with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs then at the end of January where the government when the problems ofworking together started? So finally made a response, there were activities that is I think it not just a matter of financial resources; it the government was planning in terms of doing what is not justa matter of semanticsor definition. I think was provincial jurisdiction and could not very well the main problem, as I see it, is that once you have deal with, as they said, matters relating to the damagedthe working relationship it is going to take Constitution. a while to get it up again, because both groups are sticking to their positions. I mean, that is the way I Perhaps I can ask the minister to tell us what see it, and that is theway I read it as I travel around actually has been done in the area of provincial and I am talking to people. jurisdiction besides reviewing proposals and, yes, funding the Island Lake Tribal CouncilYouth Corps? Yes, I even thought of trying to get together with What else has been done in terms of concrete the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae). I thought of action? getting together with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs to see ifthere was anything that I could do to Mr. McCrae: Madam Chairperson,the honourable get the two groups together. I think that kind of member was talking about how it is we came to the reconciliation or getting back together at the table point thatwe are at, and how he had been talking to might not be as easy as one would think, because I constituents,and what he had heard someof those think the relationship betweenthe minister andthe constituents say. I guess it depends whom you are aboriginal people has gottento the point where both talking to. I talk to lots of people and listen to lotsof are telling each other to-1 mean, they are difficult, I people too. know,the relationship betweenthe two groups. Very often, the comment I have been receiving, not only from individuals but also from So I think if that working relationship can be organizations, organizations representing re-established we can go a long way, because it aboriginal womenin particular,is thatthey are telling saddens me, too. I also know, Madam me that I would be well advised to continue to Chairperson, what it is like to be on the other side. attempt to look out for the interests of aboriginal I am aware of what it is like to begin with a position. women and also aboriginal children. Yet, when I The minister knows very well during the speak out in favour of aboriginal women or constitutional meetings, the task force that I aboriginal children, who is thefirst to pounce on me participated in, that we all came there with a starting but Chief Stevenson, who is-guess what?­ position. I tried to be as firm as the best way I knew chairman of thejus tice committee ofthe Assembly how on day one, and at the end of the day I did not of Manitoba Chiefs? So, you see, it depends on get exactly everything that I wanted. There was whom you are talkingto. give and take. Now, I know that the honourable member, as a I think that is the kindof approach that the minister former chief, would also be a former member of the should be taking with the Assembly of Manitoba Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs-and a Chiefs, and I would also, if I were talking to the chairperson-and no doubt knows many of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, say exactlythe same present members of the AMC. So I would ask the thing, because what I think has happened is that it honourable member to do me a favour. While he is has gone to the point where it is going to be hard to speaking to representatives of the AMC, would he 5184 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

encourage them,just as he is encouraging me, to I know from my experiences of the last 12-13 keep minds open and to let reason prevail and to weeks, working very closely with Yvon Dumont of keep in mind who it is we ultimately represent, that the Manitoba Metis Federation, that there is room being people, people who need better justice for a good, productive relationship there. We have services? worked very well together in discussions in seven-or-so Canadian cities, as we discussed the While you are at it, if you could remind them-well, most fundamental and important issues of the I would like to know what the member thinksabout nation. I have enjoyed a very, very cordial working this, what he thinks about the prospect of civil relationship with Yvon Dumont. He has a point of disobedience. This is an issue that is of concern, view, I have a point of view on things, sometimes obviously, to an Attorney General. But, when civil theyare the same, sometimes they are not, but that disobedienceis counselledby thehighest aboriginal does not stop us from enjoying a quality relationship, authority when it comesto First Nationsin Manitoba, which I think contains a fair amount of mutual when it is suggested that civil disobedience be understanding. I would like to enjoy that same kind engaged in in regard to Manitoba gaming and our of relationship with another person that I respect Canadian gaming laws, I wonder what the very much and that being the Grand Chief of the member's position is. Assembly of ManitobaChiefs. We needto do more *(1510) work on that I agree. If it is the same as mine, then I would ask him to Similarly I cansay that positivesignals have been use his considerable power of persuasion to try, coming from the IndigenousWomen's Collective, a group of people who could do with better funding maybe, to correct the course thatthe Grand Chief arrangements. The first time theywere ever funded of theAssembly of Manitoba Chiefs seems to be on was by the present government of Manitoba, and I in counsellingother chiefs and aboriginal peoples to am not here to say that they could not use more engage in civil disobedience. So I doask thatof the funding. I am here to encourage other groups like honourable memberas afavour. I am just taking for the federal government, like the Assembly of granted that he would not agree with civil Manitoba Chiefs and others to maybe help get disobedience. But, if he does, then he might want involved in helping the Indigenous Women's to say that too, and then we will know a little better Collective who are doing such important work on where each other is coming from . behalf of aboriginal women everywhere in this I should say, when we are talking about our province. relationships, I cannot deny, when the honourable I do single outthe ManitobaMetis Federationand member suggests that there could be an Indigenous Women's Collective to say that there improvement in the relationship between this have been recent approachesand discussions that governmentand people like Louis Stevenson, that seem very positive. I am pleased to see that it is true. We could go a long way to improve that happen, because the only thing that can result relationship. Some relationships are harder to would be improved quality of life and improved improve than others. But, in this particular case, I services for people living in Manitoba, aboriginal would encourage any move that Chief Stevenson people. might like to make to begin that process, and I would The honourablemember did say that on January suggest that he ought to be the one to begin the 28, the government finally responded to the process. Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report, and he said the The honourable member has suggested that on word "finally." It seems to me that we came within January 28, the government finally made-1 will get the suggested response time line of the justices back to that in one moment. While we are talking themselves. They suggested that an appropriate about relationships, I would like to point out that it response could be made within six months, and we has been brought to my attention that some very did that within aboutfive. positive signals have been comingrecently from the So I cannotunde rstand the language used by the Manitoba Metis Federation and from the Indigenous honourable member when he says, we finally Women's Collective, in terms of their potential responded. The report took three years. The participation in our working groups. problems took 125 or more-many, many June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5185

more-years to develop. Although the report is clear $2-million number just on that one recommendation that more in the last 40 or 50 years have the out of some 300, I believe it is, in the report. While problems developed to the extremely serious we were not just, I am sorry to say, quite soquick to condition we findourselves in now. I really think that be able to say that we can move immediately on to say that we finally made a response after only five such a recommendation--ofcourse, it would be nice months, after all of the work that had been done if we could provide that kind of service-but the previously by others-the government really had the taxpayer does not have the money, and therefore, report in its hands only for five months. governments do not have moneyeither. That is just one recommendation out of many. I do not think it is quite fair for the honourable member to say that considering the number of Maybe it is just because the honourable member proposals, the magnitude of this report and the work for Point Douglas is a member of the opposition and that had to go into researching the report and so on, not a member of the government who has to answer and all of the public hearings and all those things to the people of Manitoba for how the dollars are that happened, and then to suggest that the being spent. That is fair. I was in opposition once, government comes along five months later and is and I know what that is all about. So that is quite finally making a response. I just do not think that is fair ball. I think on closer examination in quite fair. government-as I said to the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) thelast timewe discussed this, There has been a verylarge amount of work done, the honourable member for St. James (Mr. both prior to our receiptof the reportfrom the judges Edwards) has said, well, we can wait for another but also since. Just to go through all of the government, and they will do it all, right? recommendations and all of the chapters of that particularreport and to try to look at those areas that Well, it would not be a government of his party's are exclusively a matter of federal jurisdiction or stripe-{interjection) Yes, you said that. responsibility, those matters that the province can Mr. Paul Edwards (Sl James): When did I ever be involved in, those matterswhere the chiefs need say that? to be involved and other aboriginal leaders need to Mr. McCrae: Immediately after. The honourable be involved and to separate all of those member for St. James is asking when he said that. recommendations out to look at the short-term, Maybe he was misquoted, but just after January medium-term, long-term feasibility of implementing 28th, when we announced our response to this those things and the possibility for consultation. All report,the honourable member said things like that. of that has gone into thework of the people involved Now, ifthe honourable member takes issue, I would in reviewing the report in order to put the be happy to pull out my clippings and share them government in a position to be ready to discuss with with the honourable member. If he has been others in working-group situations the actual misquoted he can tell me that. implementation of the report. Mr. Edwards: By you. The thing that the honourable member has to remember is the government has not accepted all Mr. McCrae: Well, I rarely quote the honourable of that report. We have accepted the report member for St. James, so I do not know why I would physically, but we have not accepted each and ever be misquoted doing that. I will be happy to sit every recommendation. Others have. The NDP down with the honourable member for St. James if has accepted each and every single it is not true,what he said or is reportedto have said, recommendation in its entirety,as it iswritten by the but my recollection of what he is reported to have justices. We have not and that is the difference. said is that some other government will come along and- The honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Mr.Edwa rds: Just say something positive. Hickes) has made it clear that the NDP takes each and every recommendation and accepts this. One * (1520) that comes to mind, for example, is providing Legal Mr. McCrae: I am trying to be positive about the Aid services to all summary conviction offences. honourable member for St. James. He has a very Well, I do not know if the honourable member for positive agenda. He wants to do a lot ofthings. Point Douglas did any work on it or not, but that is a Mr. Edwards: Open your eyes, come on. 5186 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mr. McCrae: The honourable member is taking As far as the other proposalsare concerned,what offence, Madam Chairperson. I did not mean any is it going to take for the minister to listen to these offence, and so therefore I will withdraw all of the people who come in with their proposals? Or is he things I said about the honourable member for St. saying, theonly way I am going to fund proposals is James, because I meant no offence to him or if the groups come into Winnipeg and they do a anybody else. But I do say that honourable public demonstration, they hold press releases, members opposite suggestwe should be taking that news conferences and so on; that is the only way report and saying we are going to adopt and that I am going to fund these projects? Is that what implement each and every recommendation. I am he is saying? sorry, I cannot agree with that. The honourable Is he also saying, anyone who does not agree with member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) said that, me, I am not going to work with, but ifyou agree with and if the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. me, yes, you are a good person, Iwill work with you? Lathlin) wants to check Hansard, then he can do Is that what he is saying, Madam Chairperson? that. I think hewas even here when it happened. Because that is the impression I get, that is the So I say, we will try through measured, message that I get as I listen to him speak this appropriate steps to do the right thing. We want as afternoon. much as possible to do it working together with all aboriginal people in Manitoba represented by their He says Yvon Dumont, he and I do not agree all the time, sometimes we do. Okay, but on the part leadership. As I pointed out to the honourable of Chief Louis Stevenson, he says, every time Louis member, two of theaboriginal groupsthat we have Stevenson disagrees with me, then I am not going identified as being the ones we will work with have to work with him anymore. Is that what he is saying? shown in recent days a very positive response to some of the things the government is saying, and As far as the AJI report goes, the minister keeps we hope to work with them more closelyvery soon. talking about a separate system. Well, I would like Mr. Lathlln: Madam Chairperson, this is the to tell him something. The AJI report, as the reason why the working relationship between the ministerknows, very clearly in a lotof detail told the minister'soffice , his department, and the aboriginal minister, the government, and others, the public, people is not working, because of the very that the existing system has not worked for many, behaviour orattitude he is displaying here. He gets many years and likely will not work in the future as visibly upset whenthings are said to him, and then far as the justicesystem or the legal system affects he wonders why other people get upset when he aboriginal people. rambles on here like that. Different groups, including a large portion of the I upset him the other night, I know I did, just like legal community in Canada, have all supportedthat he upsets me when he does that because I am approach. The minister has also said this human, too, just like him, and so are the other afternoon, these problems have developed over people that he works with, such as theAsse mbly of 125 years. I agree with him whole-heartedly, and Manitoba Chiefs. When he goes on a tirade in this that is why I say to the minister, it is going to take Chamber and they are not here to defend more than just tinkeringwith the system to make any themselves, of course they are going to be upset, headway. I am not expecting him to correct the just like the minister would be upset and indeed has system, the inadequacies, and everything that is been upset every time that he was attacked, he wrong with the current legal system as far as it thinks, unfairly. affectsaborig inal people. I am not expecting him to clear all that up. What I am expecting him to do is So I think all we are asking the minister to do is to do something rather than just tinkering with the exactly that, do something. The Theresa Point system, and tries to let everybody know that he is project, and I said before what did it take on the part doing something in a very major way. of the St. Theresa community for them to get funding? What did it require? It required news Well, my last question to the minister will be, out releases, press conferences, here in Winnipeg. of all those recommendations that were put forth by You had to travel to Winnipeg to pressure the the commissioners, at least those that are in the government into finallyagree ing to fund the project provincial jurisdiction, how many of those further. recommendations has the minister looked at with a June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5187

view to implementing them-those that are in the provide supervision and case management to provincial jurisdiction? Has he looked at any of native offenders. First, the Native Clan those recommendations, and if he has, which ones? Organization; second, The Pas Friendship Centre; Has he looked at it with a view to implementing third, the Elizabeth Fry Society, and we are seeking them? to establish a contract with the native Brandon Mr. McCrae: Madam Chairperson, we have Friendship Centre to provide one worker to the identified 119 of the recommendations as being Brandon Correctional Institution. pnte�ection] provincial or in the provincial responsibility. We * (1530) have rejected only four, so that should tell the honourable member something. The honourable member is asking me how many aboriginal correctional officers there are in The honourable member asks what we have Manitoba, and I will undertake to provide that done, and I will tell him. In the area of Corrections, number to him. But I can say that, while progress since the release of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry could always be better and we have more to do, report, Adult Corrections has implemented a there has been good progress in the last four years number of initiatives in responding to program when compared with any other period, and I will needs for aboriginal offenders. undertake to get the honourable member the First, the local native advisory committees numbers that he is lookingfor. comprised of members of the aboriginal community The honourable member should know that the in which all ofour institutionsare located have been Agassiz Youth Centre in Portage Ia Prairie has established at all adult correctional facilities. The taken several aboriginal program initiatives. A purpose of these committees is to provide advice to sweat lodge has been constructed on the Agassiz the superintendent of each institution in regard to Youth Centre campus for use by residents there as the development of appropriate programs in the use well as those from the Portage Correctional of community agencies to better meet the needs of Institution. A native advisory committee has been aboriginal offenders. formed to provide consultation on aboriginal With respect to our native spirituality policy, this program development, and a native awareness policy was developed in conjunctionwith the Human program for youth in custody has also been Rights Commission, local elders, and was publicly developed. announced by myself in March of 1992 at Headingley Correctional Institute. This policy fully An organization of aboriginal staff in the & recognizes and promotes traditional spirituality Community Youth Correctional branch has been practiceswithin the institution. established to provide consultation and assistance in the areas of affirmative action recruitment, With respect to native elders, we currently have training and program development. This one full-time elder at Headingley Correctional organization has a name, and the honourable Institute, a half-time elder at the Provincial Remand member might be able to pronounce it better than Centre and Brandon Correctional Institution. The me, but it looks something like Gamagamabid remaining institutions have established regular (phonetic). elder services on a fee-for-service contract basis. An Honourable Member: Corrections will be movingtoward increasing the It is not Cree. number of elders serving our institution to better Mr.McCrae : I am told that it is not Cree, so there recognize the fact that aboriginal offenders is no reason for the honourable member to be any comprise fully 55 percent of our institutional better at it than I am. population. Rnally, the honourable member should be aware In regard to native awareness training, in that approximately 20 community participation recognition of the need for training in dealing with agreements have been concluded with aboriginal aboriginal offenders, Adult Corrections will provide organizations and bands. In effect, these two days of training to all correctional officers who agreementsinvolve fee-for-service payments by the have direct contact with offenders. department for correctional services delivered on We have contracts with native agencies, site. That is in rural areas and in reserve corrections contracts with the following agencies to communities by these aboriginal communities. 5188 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

I have seen myofficials working away he re-I have whether or not they would be willing to appoint a response to the question, but it may not be a full individuals to assist in developing programs for response to the question, and if there is more cross-cultural training? information I can get for the honourable member I Mr. McCrae: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I did not will. Manitoba Justice recognizes the need to mention in my previous answer that the provincial increase the representation of aboriginal people judges have received that kind of training. What the its employed in correctional system. At present, 7 honourable memberasks is that we should single percent of adult correctional institutional staff, 6 out that particular recommendation and approach percent of juvenile institutional staff, and 11 percent the aboriginal leadership I believe and ask them for of community correction staff are aboriginal. their views and their participation. That is not a bad Affirmative action targets will be reviewed yearly suggestion and may be one way to get them and increased as quickly as is practical. I think if indirectly to dowhat they refuse to do directly. you compare that with the situation several years ago you would see a marked improvement, Mr. Edwards: Regardless of particular although no one is suggesting that it has gone far involvement, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs or enough to this point. other aboriginal representatives, what this government does have that is the product of the Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, one of the report, I understand, is quite a good, quite an recommendations of the inquiry, page 755 of their instructive video tape presentation which went with book, was the recommendation that the provincial this report. Has that been shown to those in the government-along with its recommendation to the justice system who have even occasional contact federal and municipal governments as well-butthe with aboriginal people, which is the threshold under provincial government, "individually or in concert, the report? with the assistance and involvement of Aboriginal people, establish formal cross-cultural educational Mr.McCrae : We do not know that offhand. programs for all those working in any part of the I tend to think that the work that we have been justice system who have even occasional contact doing in this area-therehas been more of it than my with Aboriginal people." What initiatives have been comments are making clear. The question the taken by the provincial government either honourable member asks is probably better for me individually or in concert with the other levels of to reply to him further in writing or personally, but I government to achieve that goal? do not have the kind of information that I would like (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Chairperson, in the to have in front of me in order to give a detailed kind Chair) of answer to that, but I would undertake to do that. The filmthat the honourable member refers to, I take Mr. McCrae: Mr. ActingChairpers on, with respect it, would have some good potential there and may to cross-cultural instruction or training, the RCMP be used in future as we carry forward with more of have programs in that area as does the Civil Service this type oftraining. Commission. But how do we follow that Mr. Edwards: Mr. Acting Chairperson, another recommendation? I mean, this is an extremely recommendation is that the federal and provincial sensitive one, when you are talking about aboriginal governments isolate designate positions which will cross-cultural educationor training. How do we do require or will inevitably result in high-contact that with no inputfrom aboriginal leadership? aboriginal people as aboriginal-bilingual positions. That is my conundrum on recommendations like That is something that this government could have that. I do not know how I can move forward fast done on its own. How many and what positions enoughwhen I do not have the participation of the have been designated as aboriginal-bilingual leadership of aboriginal people. So that is a positions to date? problem I put to the honourable member, but we are Mr.McCrae : I believe when we are advertising or here and we are ready to move on matters like that, bulletining for positions in the government, most but we feel that we do need more aboriginal input. notably in Corrections, there is a preference to those Mr. Edwards: Mr. Acting Chairperson, has the who are bilingual English/aboriginal. It is not minister specifically made a request to the without its problems, the honourable member Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs on that issue as to knows. There are five aboriginal languages spoken June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5189

in this province,so what might be goodfor one area through our court system, and it would have been might not be so good for another area. All of the that kind of record that would have been made people involved in those five language groups might available to the judges initially, but ifthe honourable be concentrated in the same institution, such as member is talking aboutsome kind of computerized Headingley, for example, so that you could have a database that we can build and then add to,we need need for someone to speak a particular aboriginal to put into place enough programs to make language and the person you have hired speaksone improvements before we want to startjudging that, of them, does not speak the other. There are because we alre ady know that aboriginal problems that way. participation in the justice system is too high; we However,.that does not mean that there should know there are too many aboriginal people in our not be attention paid to the issue, and in our staffing jails. We already know that from previous we see an ability in an aboriginal language to be a databases. definite asset when looking at potential employees. All of which is to say to the honourable member That is something that we lookat as astrong point that rather than spending our money at this point to when making hiring decisions. set up a new system to keep records of something

• (1 540) that we have not implemented yet-unless you Mr. Edwards: Mr. Acting Chairperson, on page wanted to use such information for St. Theresa Point 757 of the report, there is a suggestion that the or something and that information is available government consult with aboriginal groups to design already. and implement a data collection system that would Mr. Edwards: I guess that is true, and it solves to provide detailed information to compare the impact a certain extent having to set up a data collection on, and treatment of, aboriginalsand nonaboriginals system to review programs, because if you do not by the justice system, and to further evaluate the implement any programs, then you do not need a success ofthose programs and provide information data review system. to help identify needed reforms. But moving on, another recommendation, it is I acknowledge the opening statement is that the page 753, has to do with The Provincial Police Act government should consult withabori ginal groups, which is presently before this House being and obviously the minister has been unable to amended. There is a suggestion that the act "make establish a consultative relationship. I would ask explicit provision for the recognition of any police him, however, whether or not his department has commission or committee which is established to put forward their suggestion as to the design and provide police services in any municipality, implementation process for a data collectionsystem unorganized territory or Aboriginal community." that would satisfythat recommendation? It goes onto suggest that the act "be amendedto Mr. McCrae: I believe the judges who wrote the provide for the establishment of a provincial Aboriginal Justice Inquiry reportwould tell you that Aboriginal PoliceCommi ssion with the authority to my department was helpful in providing data prepare and enforce a wide range of regulations," et information about aboriginal offenders. We made cetera, for aboriginal police force in Manitoba. available as much information as we could, and I think they would say that information was useful. In Why have we not got those amendments before order to put together a database that would be us while we are amending The Provincial Police Act meaningful, it seems to me you need to develop in this session of the Legislature? I believe that Bill betterprograms than we have right now. Maybe the 86is before us doing that. programs should come first and then the information Mr. McCrae: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the standard gathering system could come later, so that type of agreement to set up an aboriginal police information could help us make decisions about force, as I understand it, is expected to take whether what we are implementing is doing the job anywhere from three to five years, and for us to try it is intended to do. to take a picture of what will exist three to five years I cannot tell the honourable member we are or will from today in terms of aboriginal policing, try to fit in the near term set up such a system. We have that into legislation that we are bringing before the records. We keep records of matters that pass House in June of 1992, is just impossible. 5190 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

For the time being, however, all police forces in we had more time. I am sure the member for The Manitoba except for the RCMP could,by regulation, Pas (Mr. Lathlin), feels the same way, but at this come under the authority of the Law Enforcement point I am going to curtail questioning in order to Review Agency and the mandate that it has and our move on, as I have been instructed to do so, and present policing arrangement. look forward to some ongoing dialogue in a less formal way, perhaps with the minister, on these No one knows for sure what things are going to issues. look like in the justice system in Manitoba three to five years hence, but we can certainly legislate for As I indicated earlier, I share the frustration of the the things that we know exist today, and thatis what member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), and I have we are doing. listened and reviewed the comments of the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae). This is an historic period Mr. Edwards: That is not an adequate response, of time, I believe, in this province. I sense it is being in my view, to the recommendations . The lost and that gives me enormous concern and recommendations call for the amendment of The disappointsme. Provincial Police Act essentially as an enabling provision to allow for the recognition of any police I encourage the minister to review every one of commission or committee which may be established those initiatives and do what he can. If he cannot in the future to provide police services. find the ability on either side to work together on this, do what he can. It would be an enormous sign of Secondly, the act, which is a provincial act, it is good faith to do, to take some initiatives beyond-1 asked that it provide for the establishment of acknowledge the St. Theresa Point, the DOTC. provincial aboriginal police commission. No one Those were existing, those are good programs. suggeststhat the province can unilaterally establish Those are very goodthings. aboriginal police forces. What is being suggested is that an aboriginal police commission-and we do Theywere existing prior to this. Itis importantthat have an aboriginal police force already in this they be continued, but you cannot hang your hat on province. What is being suggested is that The those programs for too long. Provincial Police Act be amended to provide for I offer again the suggestion that if dialogue is what we have now, which is not enough. We are broken down, if the working group model is not obviously going to want more, a higher level of acceptable to the aboriginal, whether the minister aboriginal policing of aboriginal peoples, but also to feels they are right or wrong to do that, whetherthe provide enabling legislation for those future minister feels that they are wrongfully asking for committees or commissions which may be $250,000 for a starter and that this has caused a established in the future, essentially showing breakdown,the way aroundthat, it is my suggestion, leadership in the area of policing through give n that they have accepted the amendments to The Provincial Police Act, which recommendations in full, on the record to my would not in any way prejudice or, I suggest, knowledgeof the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Report undercutor betoo early for thisprovince to move in, is simply appoint the commission. given that we already have a provincial aboriginal police force in place and that this is a very clear • (1550) recommendation of the report which is not made Go back to square one. Square one was a good contingent on what may or may not be five years idea, and I do not acceptthat it was administratively down the road. inefficient or cost ineffective. I think it could be structured in a very effective and efficientway. The Mr. McCrae: Mr. Acting Chairperson, there may one thing we know today is that nothing the minister well be something in what the honourable member has proposed thus far is working. My suggestion is says, and I am going to review his comments to see thathe go back to the report and make that offer and if I am right about that. suggest, put in writing, who his commissioners are Mr. Edwards: Mr. Acting Chairperson, we have going to be and ask them to do the same. I think tight time constraints in this House, and I do not that is the way to call the aboriginal community back blame the minister for that. We have to move on to to where we perhaps should have started on this, other departments and we are limited in terms of start anew and startafresh , because the one thing time. I simply want to put on the record that we wish we know today is that it is not working. It is an June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5191

enormous cost, not just in terms of human costs but Overall, the Departmentof Rnance is requesting in terms of financial cost, and causes me great approval to spend $71 8,475,100 in 1992-93 as distress. I believe most Manitobans are looking for compared to $751 ,467,000 for the Adjusted a lot more than what is coming as a result of this 1991-92 Vote, a decrease of $32,991 ,900 or 4.39 report. Thank you, Mr. Acting Chairperson. percent. Most of this decrease is due to an The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): estimated reduction in public debt costs of $37.8 Resolution 129: RESOLVED that there be granted million from $493 millionin 1991-92 to $455.2milli on tax to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,000,000 for in 1992-93, offset by an estimated increase in Aboriginal Justice Initiatives-pass. credit payments of $4.1 million-from an Adjusted Vote of $236.9 million in 1991-92 to an estimate of That so .concludes the Estimates on the $241 million in 1992-93. Details of these changes Aboriginal Justice Initiatives. can be provided later.

FINANCE Operating expenditures are estimated to increase $708,100 from the Adjusted Vote of $20,267,000 in The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Jack Reimer): We 1991-92 to an estimate of $20,975,100 in will now continue with the Estimates on the 1992-93--an increase of 3.49 percent. Department Department of Finance. This section of the of Finance 1992-93 estimated operating Committee of Supply will be dealing with the expenditureswere subjected to the same stringent Estimates of the Departmentof Rnance. Treasury Board guidelines and sectoral review We will begin with a statement from the process as applied to all other operating honourablemini sterresponsible. Does the minister departments. For 1992-93, the Department of have an opening comment? Rnance was included in the management and Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): reform sector. This sector also included the Mr. Acting Chairperson, I will leave it up to the departments of Legislation, Executive Council, opposition critics to let them decide whether or not Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs, they would like me to read into the record Civil Service Commission, Government Services approximately four and a half pages- and the Information Resources Division of Culture, An Honourable Member: I think we probably saw Heritageand Citizenship. it in the budget anyway. In total, Department of Rnance staff years are Mr. Manness: -orwhether they would prefer I not. requested to increase from 392.48 as the adjusted [inte�ection] figure for 1991-92 to 397.48 for 1992-93-an increase of five staff years. One staff year is The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): Is it the requested for the administration division to establish will ofthe committee? an EDP systems development co-ordinator Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Chairperson, thank you position, while the other four staff years are term very much, and to criticsfrom the otherparties, I will positions for the taxation division, expected to be certainlysave them from all the detail in respect to required for 1992-93 only, to facilitate completionof staff-year changes and all that, provide a copy to reorganization arrangements in the taxation Hansard as if it were read into the record. division. Requested 1992-93 salaries are increased by $1 ,025,000 or 6.6 percent as Opening Remarks compared to the Adjusted Vote for 1991 -92. PresentedBut NotRead Estimated otherexpenditures have been reduced Mr. Chairperson, members ofthe committee, I am by $69,900 or 1.1 percent. Estimated recoveries pleased to present the 1992-93 Estimates of are increased by $24 7,000 or 12.5 percent primarily Expenditure of the Departmentof Finance for your due to additional allocation of general liability and consideration and approval. propertyinsurance premiums to other departments. The EstimatesSupplement for the Department of Estimates for the comptroller's division include Finance has been tabled previously. It provides a $50,000 to provide for specialized consulting gooddeal of information which should answer most services and other expenses relating to the of the detailed questions which are normally asked Integrated Financial Information System (IFIS) duringthe Estimates review process. project. This project, led by the Department of 5192 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Rnance, is being undertaken in response to a Members will recall that legislation which made growingawareness at all levels of government that provincial social allowance recipients ineligible for our aging financialsys tems are no longer adequate tax credits was passed in the 1991 session. The to meet theincreased needsof users. The intention estimatedsavings, $18 million, were transferred to is to establish a strategic directionfor future systems Family Services to fund, in part,offset tingincreases development, and ultimately, to put in place a in social allowance rates. This initiative added an financial informationand management system that estimated$23 million to social allowance rates, over will streamline transaction processingand enhance and above normal indexing of benefits. the quality and accessibilityof financial information The initiative ensures that social allowance for the benefit of all users. recipients receive their benefits on a monthlybasis To this point, the project has substantially during the course of the year.. Other taxfilers must accomplished the analysis and identification of wait until the spring of the following year before they broad business objectives, current system receive their entitlements. The initiative provides deficiencies, and general system requirements. social allowance recipients with more money in The need hasnow arisen for a technical evaluation total, and they receive it sooner. It also ensures the of the design of one or more particular system public funds allocated for recipients goes into their solutions. Our intention is to focusinitially on a new hands directly rather than through discounters. software product developed by the federal Mr. Chairperson, in general, these Finance government specifically designed to enhance Estimates are prepared on a basis comparable to financial management and decision making. last year. Members are advised that many of the I am pleased to report that the reorganized "Other Expenditures• amountshave beenheld to no taxation division, effective April 1 , 1991 , produced increase over the Adjusted 1991-92 Vote and in significantly improved tax audit recoveries and some cases have been substantially reduced. better relationshipswith taxpayers as evidenced by Mr. Chairperson, I commend the Finance fewer taxpayer complaints. Technology Estimates for consideration by the Committee of improvements, utilizing laptop computers by Supply. I am pleased to invite questions from the auditors and tax collection computer assisted members regarding these Estimates. Thank you, systems have improved related productivity. Mr. Chairperson. Operational and computersyste ms developed and *** to be developed will further improve taxpayer satisfaction through improved delivery systems in There is one area I would like to talk a little bit tax refunds, as well as in providing accurate and about what it is we are trying to do in financial timely information to taxpayer enquiries. information system. For years we have had a For thefirst time, taxcredit payments are shown situation not only in Rnance but indeed as the on an accrual basis. Previously, the amounts voted Department of Rnance relates to all the other in this appropriation reflected the anticipated cash departments of government. We have had a hard flowing in the fiscal period rather than the time as the systems have developed that there is entitlementsacquired by Manitoba residentsduring directcommunic ation. the course of the year. The change in accounting What we have undertaken this year is, within the implements the Public Sector Auditing and Comptroller's Division we have provided $50,000 Accounting Committee (PSAAC) guidelines on for specialized consulting services and other obligations incurred in one accounting period. expenses relating to the integrated financial The Estimates show $241 million in benefits information system, IFIS for short, project. This Manitobans are expected to claim in respect of the projact led by the Department of Rnance is being 1992 taxation year. Some of these benefits-the undertaken in response to a growing awareness at Resident Homeowners' Tax Assistance, for all levels of government that our aging financial example-will be paid this fiscal year, while others systems are no longer adequate to meet the will not be paid until Manitobans file their 1992 increased needs of users. The intention is to income tax returns in the spring of 1993. The establish a strategic direction for future systems Manitoba government's liability for these payments, development and ultimately to put in place a however, is incurred thisyear. financial information management system that will June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5193

streamline transaction processing and enhance the My main concern and the concern of the official quality and accessibility of financial information for opposition iswith regard to the lack of action on the the benefit of all users. part of the minister and his departmentto address To this point the project has substantially key questions of the economy, because this is the accomplished the analysis and identification of one departmentwhere we do focus in on economic broad business objectives, current system policy by the provincial government. Without deficiencies and general system requirements. question the major problem facing this province of The need has now arisen for a technical evaluation Manitoba today, we have many problems but the and design of one or more particular system major problem, in my estimation is the very, very solutions. Our intentioni� to focusinitially on a new high, unacceptably high level ofunemplo yment that software product development by the federal persists. We still have well over 50,000 Manitobans government specifically designed to enhance out of work. It is not acceptable. I appreciate the financial management decision making. So I only fadt that there is a recession in Canada, a recession point outto the House, Mr. ActingChairperson, that in the United States. I appreciate the fact that there we are trying to work towards the adoption of a new are over one and a half million, or thereabouts, financial management system. people unemployed across thecountry, and I am not pretending for one minute that we can live as an I would just like to make one other comment, and economic island unto ourselves. that is to report that the reorganized Taxation Division-this is moving on to the Taxation Division I will also go on to say that the federal government now-effective April 1 , '91 , produced significantly has the monetary and fiscal capacity that no one improved tax audit recoveries, and better provincial government has, and has to take the relationship with taxpayers is evidenced by fewer major responsibility in fighting unemployment and taxpayer complaints. Technology improvements, recession. Nevertheless, there is a role for the utilizing lap-top computers by auditors and tax provinces, and surely there is an important role for collection computer-assisted systems, have provincial-federal co-operation in fighting the improved related productivity. Operational and recession. My criticism is that neither the federal computer systems to be developed will further governmentnor the provincial government-andthis improve taxpayer satisfaction through improved applies to certain other provincial governments as delivery systems and tax refunds as well as in well-has made recession-fightingthe No. 1 priority. providing accurate and timely information to They have not made the fight against taxpayers inquiring. unemployment, the fight to minimize Mr. Acting Chairperson, I will leave the opening unemployment, their top priority. remarks to these few points at this time. There are various reasons that are given. The usual one is a lack of money; the usual one is that The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): We will we cannot afford any more taxes; the usual one is now have the customary reply from the critic of the that we cannot borrow any more, and so on. While official opposition, the honourable member for we can all share in this House the need to be as Brandon East. efficient as possible in spending, the need to Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Acting maintain a minimal deficit, et cetera; nevertheless, Chairperson, I think the minister, from the we believe that this minister and this department information he has given us plus the notes I believe and this government have failed in focusing on the he will be sending to us on some of the changes and unemployment problem that faces us. highlights that he wishes to advise us of with respect The fact that our economy tends to beslow-it has to his department-! would say offhand the traditionally been a relativelyslow-growth economy, Departmentof Financetra ditionally has been a very well run department. I can say candidly that I do not but now we have signs of major industrial erosion have any particular concerns at this point at least and, of course, the continuing, cyclical about the organization of the department, unemployment. We believe that this government management of it, and I know they are forever and this ministerand thisdepartment have failed by looking at ways and means of being more efficient, not trying to address this question. cost effective and so on. * (1 600) 5194 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

It could have been done in various ways such as I believe that we are still suffering from high jobs and training programs, such as public works interest rates, and we would like this minister to be programs, particularly involving municipalities, more aggressive in pressuring the federal whereby the government could have given the government on its monetary policy. Many people municipalities, such as the City of Winnipeg or the seem to think, well, the day and age of high interest Cityof Brandon, some incentive to bring necessary rates is behind us, and we do not have to pressure projects forward and in the process help those the governmentas we have in the past, because I municipalities undertake major required public do remember this minister complaining about high works. interest rates a couple of years ago. I would continue to pressure the federal government on this, Goodness knows there is deteriorating becausewe still have in real terms unconscionably infrastructure in our cities that hasto be attendedto, high interest rates. but the cities, the urban municipalities do not have the financial wherewithal. Here we could have As a matter of fact, the real interest rates have assisted the cities, and we could have fought the gone up recently. Back in December of 1991 the unemployment problem. We could have to some rate of inflation was 3.8 percentand the officialbank extent alleviated unemployment. rate was 8 percent andthe difference betweenthese two numbers is thereal interest rate. Therefore the While the government always pooh-poohs the real interest rate in December of 1991 was 4.2 make-work programs, nevertheless they have got percentagepoints. Today,that has increased. The into it to some extent. CareerStart-1 mean by the rate of inflation has dropped to 1.3 percent. The government's definition of make work, I guess bank rate, however, has only dropped to 7 percent, CareerStart is a make-work program. We do not so thatthe difference which is thereal interest rate believe that they are make-work programs, is now 5. 7 percent. Sowe have gone from 4.2 real especially if you are involving the private sector, interest rate level in December to 5.7 today. providing the private employer with some incentive. pnterjection] Well, just under 6 percent. This is not The private employerhas to put money on thetabl e. my arithmetic;there is an article in a recent issue of Presumably, they are real jobs. The Globe and Mail, so that is my source of I say, this is one direct way that a provincial information. I just presume that their figures are government can stimulate the economy, not right, and so on. At any rate, our interest rate levels through,as some might suggest, tax cuts,because are still too high. there istoo much ofa leakage out ofthe provincial Having said that, I would acknowledge that the economy by way of tax cuts to provide the monetary easy money policy is notthe way . Itis an necessarystimulus. Theway to get at the problem importantcondition, but it is not asufficient condition directly is to help put money in thepeople's pockets to get the Canadian economy going. You have to who are unemployed, take themoff of welfare, and have a positive fiscalpolicy as well, and that is sorely hopefully get them producing goods and services lacking. As a result, our economy continues to thatwe all need. flounder. I know there are some signs, some glimmers of hope through increased exports, for I think back to 1987-88, wherewe actually signed example, with the Americans especially, but, an agreementwith the federal government-!believe nevertheless, Statistics Canada still refuses to the Honourable Jake Epp was then proclaim the recession over. minister-whereby we had a $6-million program of employment enhanceability for welfare recipients. (Madam Chairperson in the Chair) It was directlytargeted at welfare recipients to try to Again I blame the federal government for the get them trainedso that they could leavethe welfare Canadian dollar being far too high vis-a-vis the roles and become gainfully employed. As I have American dollar. That is not a radical left-wing said before, our major problem is lack of effective position. This is stated by presidents of demand for the goods and services that our corporations, CEOs ofcorporatio ns. I was reading industries can produce, and therefore we are an article today in The Globe and Mail where a underutilizing our capacity. We are continuing to particular president of a large corporation was have this sluggish economy. criticizing the high value of the Canadian dollar. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5195

An Honourable Member: Debase yourself to Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, I would ask prosperity, that is your ...• the members whether they would have any Public Debt questions, because I would like to have the Mr. LeonardEvans: Debasemyself to prosperity? ADM of Taxation here. I would like to have the I am saying we have to have a realisticvalue of the Comptroller here. Would there be any questions of dollar so thatwe can enhance our exports. We want the Comptroller's Division? If not, then I will not to increase exports so that we can have more jobs, bring the Comptroller in. I will bring in Fed-Prov more production in Canada; that is what I say. which deals with the transfer payment area. Ultimately, we will not be debasing our wealth. pnterjection] Taxation? (interjection] Okay, then we What we will be doing ultimately is increasing our will bring in those three divisions. wealth, andthat is surely what it is all about. So we will bring in somebody from Debt Madam Chairperson, I just wanted to put those Management, we will bring somebody in from the few remarks on the record. I appreciate we are ADM of Taxation, andwe will also bring in fed-prov limited in time. I have four or fivepoints or questions representatives. pnterjection] Well, Charlie will look I would like to pursue, areas that I would like to after that. Okay? So those three divisions? pursue withthe minister in due course, however we wish to do so, but I do not have detailed questions Madam Chairperson: Agreed? Just for on the management of the department. I do not clarification, I believe it is my understanding that have any major criticisms in that respect. So, with there are no questions under Administration and those few words, I yield the floor to, I guess, the Finance, so shall we quickly proceed to pass this ' representative of the second opposition party. section with the exception of the Minister s Salary and the Resolution? Madam Chairperson: Does the critic for the Mr.Leonard Ev ans: Madam Chairperson,I did not second opposition party wish to make an opening think we were going section by section. I thought statement? we were just going to have a general discussion, Mr.Reg Alcock(Osborne) : Madam Chairperson, general questionsand answers, andthen pass the no, I do not have an opening statement. I would just entire list thereafter. as soon get to the questions, because the time is Madam Chairperson: Whatever the will of the extremelyshort. committee is, but I was justtrying to expedite the MadamChairpers on: I would remindall members process, because at some point we have to pass of the committee thatitem 1 .(a) will be deferred for these line-by-line items. consideration until other items have been Mr.Leonard Evans: At theend we will passall the considered. items. Mr.Alco ck: MadamChairpers on, juston a point of MadamChairpers on: Okay. procedure, a question to the minister. Given the Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Chairperson, as I shortness theof time and the factthat the member said, I have four or five areas that I would like to for BrandonEast (Mr. Leonard Evans) has indicated explore with the minister. If the minister talked that he has a few questions and I have a few specific aboutdebt management-! donot know ifhe has his questions-although they are not the specifics of staffhere for thisitem at the moment or not-but my departmental operational lines, they are more policy question is: Just what shifts have occurred in related-couldwe deal withthe Estimates as a whole provincial borrowing? I know the minister a couple and pass themall in one go, instead of having staff of years back was talking about his desire to jumping in and out theof room and the like. I mean, minimize offshore borrowing to shift preferably to I do notthink we need to gothrough that. Canadian borrowing and to a lesser extent to Madam Chairperson: Is that the will of the American borrowing. So I am just wondering ifthe committee? Wouldthe minister's staff please enter minister can update us onwhat has been happening the Chamber. to borrowing by this province, and perhaps he can give us a rundown on the situation. Order, please. I believethe honourable minister Mr.Man ness: Madam Chairperson, I am happy to is trying to determine procedure. report that right now we have no non-American * (1610) denominated debt. In other words, it is all North 51 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

American. Of the total across the Crowns and Let me say, though, in respect to the minister general-purpose borrowing, roughly 38 percent is when he said the collective advice during a different U.S. denominated. So roughly then, 62 percent of age was to invest in the so-called lower couponrate , our total indebtedness is in Canadian dollars. As the lowerinterest rate, thatmay very well have been you know,we have undergone a number of swaps the case, but there was still a judgment call by through those beneficial periods which provided somebodyin government, ultimately, as to whether some very good return to us. We have booked or not to take advantage of that low coupon rate those benefits but we are out of all liability, all knowing that there still was one whole side exposure, in non-North American denominated unhedged,and that was the value ofthe Canadian debt. dollar vis-a-vis thecurrency. Ofcourse , that is what provided the incredible exposure. Mr. Leonard Evans: I would thankthe minister for So right today, not todayso much, but there was that information. I do not think anyone would really a timetwo years ago when still on the coupon rate wish to borrow abroad if necessary because of the it wouldhave been much to our advantage purely to uncertainty that is involved in the exchange rates havegone out and got German marks. I knowwhen that tend to fluctuate from time to time and the I first came into office, German marks,I thinkwe still uncertainty with regard to future burden. could get for 5.5 percent coupon, when long-term I recall back some years ago, it seemed to be the Canadas were in the area of 11 or 12. wisdom within the government-and it was not just Purely thenin comparingcoupon rates we should political wisdom,it was wisdom with the staff-thatit have still been in German marks, butthe reality was was, as I understand it, suitable and appropriate for we thought that the Canadian dollar, because it is the province toborrow in foreign countries because tied so closely to the U.S. dollar, might slide away the rates of interest were so different. The rate of from the German mark and, of course, end up the interest was so attractive at that time vis-a-vis the effective rate of interest, no longer being 5.5, but Canadian rate of interest that we were minimizing something like 15.5, that we chose not to take that the debt burden, the interest burden on Manitoba risk. We made a conscious decision. taxpayers by doing thatat the time. The former government decided thoughthat they Now, conditions changeand certainlythey have wanted to make thedecision, and they thoughtthat changed over the years, so obviously it is not as the risk was not so great. Well, hindsight is perfect, attractive , if at all, to borrow offshore. So, as I and there was tremendous cost with that. So it understand it, theonly foreign borrowing we have at varies from time to time, I agree, but ultimately, the present time-1am not trying to put words in the unless you can do a perfect hedge, a province, a minister's mouth-but as I understand, none of our company, whoever, anatio n, will be exposed ifthey debt is held by any persons in countries outside are borrowing in some currency other than their Canada and the U.S., 38 percent is held in the own. United States, and60 percent Is heldin Canada. So Mr. Leonard Evans: Certainly, the minister and there is no debt held offshore; 38 percentof the debt government of the day have to take responsibility Is held in the United States, 62 percent is held in and I am not suggesting otherwise. It is a judgment Canada. call, but it is a judgment based surely on the facts at the time and some rational approach. I donot think Mr. Manness: Not quite correct, Madam it is a matter of right-wing versus left-wing policy in Chairperson. What we are saying is that we have terms of where you borrow. no liability in terms of currencies outside of the U.S. dollar. That does not mean that individuals Any government surely wants to minimize the wherever they live in the world, wherever they burden of debt, the burden of interestrat es. Ideally, am happen to be in the world, may not be investing in I sure what we would like to see is the entire Manitoba bonds, but they knowwhen they buy those amount of provincial debt held within the province bonds, they are either buying them in Canadian and all those people here, so that we pay out our interest rates to Manitobans, but that is not possible. dollars or in U.S. dollars. So there could be investors from many parts of the world who have Can the minister, and maybe he has not got all purchased our bonds. the figures with him, but just where is the debt held? June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5197

I am not trying to put words in his mouth. I am not Revenue that was tabledduring the BudgetAddress trying to confuse the matter, but you have talked of the minister which showed Current Operating about the liabilities in terms of dollars, American and Programs, Estimated Revenuefor the Year Ending Canadian dollars, butdo you have any furtherdetail March 31, 1992, of $1 ,862,827; whereas now,in the on where the debt resides or where the debt is held Supplementary Informationwe have been given for outsideof Canada? this Estimatesdiscussion, I note that the department is showing estimates from the Government of Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, I do not Canada to be $1 ,51 1 ,900,000. always know, when we work through our lead managers. I guess, do we ultimately know, who are In other words, we have gone from aboutroughly the bond holders. I know in some cases I do see a $1 .9 billion down to $1 .5 billion, which is a list of, particularly, our U.S. bond issues. substantial difference;it is a $400mi llion difference. Sometimes they total, if we do a $200-million to Well, first of all, is there any explanation for that $300-million issue, anywhere from eight to 12 difference? purchasers. They cover the gamut, I mean, the An Honourable Member: What page would that spectrum, right-1 have used this on the stump many be? times. I mean, I have always impressed, and have I always enjoyed the responsiveness of the crowd Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, this onpage-there is no when I tell them that, for instance, the Teachers of page numbering. It is first, just inside, yes, the Texas Pension Fund are vitally interested in 1992-93 Revenue Estimates, Summary by whether or not we are going to pay back our loan or Department. Thereis an item here, Finance,and it indeed the intereston theloan in time, or the State shows under Government of Canada $1 .5 billion. of California civil servants-equivalent to our The other is the first page of the summary of superannuation fund-who, I understand, have Revenue Estimates in the document tabled with invested in our funds. your Budget Address, and as I say, this shows But there are lite insurance companies, we know roughly $1 .9 billion-$1B62 billion, et cetera, and for sure in Japan and in Great Britain-in this one is $1.51 1 billion, et cetera. So there is a England-which have invested in Manitoba bonds. difference of roughly $400 million. So these are the types of institutional purchasers Mr.Manness: Madam Chairperson, for thesake of who come forward. Manitoba obviously has been a time, we will endeavour to find out specifically the borrower of some repute for a long period of time. difference and the rationale for the differences in Their name is known. They have always honoured those numbers. We do not have them rightnow, but their commitments, seen as a worthycredit risk. if the member wants-all I can say for the record is So it is these types of institutions that take into simply this: there is no change in the estimate. Our account what it is we are prepared to pay in terms revenue estimate is from the presentation of the of interest. Making a decision, given their portfolio budget. We still are very much on course as far as mix at the point in time, they decide ultimately '92-93. I mean, I am prepared to give greater detail whether to invest in our bonds. So it covers a wide around some ofthe revenue numbers now that we spectrum ofinstitutional buyers. are into the last month of the first quarterand almost finished the firstquarter, but as far as our estimates * (1 620) for revenue for '92-93 global, those that were Mr. Leonard Evans: Perhaps then we could slip presented in the budget, which were I believe a little over and discuss the situation of revenues versus over $5 billion,those are unchanged at this point in expenditures, namely the situation of the deficit. time. Since deficits translate ultimately into borrowing, I Mr. Leonard Evans: Sothat, if I heard themin ister am wondering what is happening to ours-what is correctly, the total revenue from all sources our latest estimate of the deficit? including the Government of Canada is still The reason I am asking, the reason I have great estimated to be a little over $5 billion, $5.1 billion. concern here is a differentiation in the estimates of Yes, well, this is what I see on page 3 of the financial equalization payments from the federal statistics section of the budget document. government, because in one document-ifI read this Nevertheless,when one looksat this document, the correctly-this was the Detailed Estimates of budget document, the estimate of $5.1 billion 5198 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

includes this higher number of federal transfers. So quarter, '91 -92. We hope to do that within the now you have given us a document which has $400 month, sometime in the month of July. million less. pnte�ection] Well, it is the preface-it is At this point it looks like the deficitlast estimated 1992 Revenue Estimates. That is a substantial in the third quarter was, I believe, at $348 million. difference. Probably we will see a small decrease from that At any rate, what the minister is saying $348 million. At this point I cannot say how much, though-neverthelesshe feels, in spite of that, there because, quite frankly, I do not know. Certainly,we is some explanation, maybe there is a statistical will not surpass the third quarter forecast of $348 explanation so that the total revenue is still million deficit for '91-92. anticipated to bethe same as his budgetdocument Mr. Leonard Evans: MadamChairperson, looking showed. at these figures further I see that there probably is Is the minister now prepared to give us any some sort of statistical explanation here, because information as to the estimate of the deficitsituation the federal transfersmore or less correspond ifyou which, of course, requires some consideration of bring yourself to the bottomline. I guess when I was expenditures as well as revenues. In other words, looking at 1.5, I had in mind that being the total. But are we still on target for the projected deficit as the total is down at the bottom. So maybe we can shownin the budget document? relax a bit. But the 1.8 is-yes, I see that now. Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, in terms of More specifically, dealing with equalization, '92-93, again, we are justtoo soon into thenew fiscal because that is not broken downhere as such, but year to give the member anything that might be of equalization referred to in the budget document. value to him. Certainly, when we look at the Last year, that is '91-92,it was roughly $995 million. This year, according to your '92-93 Estimates, you revenue side, I have got revenue numbers that are have projected$1 .085 billion. Can I ask specifically sort of bouncing a little bit, and I am talking about what is happening to this estimate? Is it possiblefor our own source revenues that are a little below and the minister to enlighten us on that? I am talking a little bit above. I would say, moving into the end specifically about equalization payments now. of the first quarter, they are probably a little down from what we are forecasting globally or in and * (1630) around thesame number. Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, there are We have no reason today, and I talk to Mr. threereasons. First of all, thereare purely technical Neumann every twoweeks and ask him if we have changes which, of course, are ongoing. If the got any news coming from Ottawa, because that is member wishes much greater detail on that, I will where I tend to lose a lot of sleep, ifthere will be a ask Mr. Neumann to present thatto him at another unilateral decision or something else coming down time. Secondly, because other provinces have that is going to impact the transfer area. At this chosen to increase their taxes, obviously their point, there is no reason for changing the Estimate capacity to tax is greater, and through that process that we have in transfer. we then have shared to some extent. It generates more revenue obviously in the tax-sharing pool. So on the revenue side, I am saying as we are Thirdly, other disparities verge on the area of just into '92-93, I have no reason to change. On the technical change. We have now put a greater expenditure side, again, we have no knowledge of definition to some of thetax areas, andwe have also where we are at, although to say to the member we benefited from those changes. will be beginning the '93-94 budgeting cycle sooner I might point out, in this whole area of in the sense that if revenues begin to change equalization, as I have pointedout to my colleagues mid-year, we will be in position to react, and we may in cabinet, this is a very dynamic area. We have have to make some expenditure decisions to ensure roughly 32 tax areas. I can indicate to you that our that thedeficit net does notgo beyondthat forecast. province is pushing very hard for the inclusion of a So that is where we are in this new fiscal year, old 33rd, and that includes, of course, municipal tax fiscal year, '91 -92. I guess we are just bringing in base, comparing that taxing field as across all the the final number, doing the compilations with provinces of Canada. One would have to imagine respect to trying to present an unaudited fourth the benefit to Manitoba ifthat were to be included June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5199

within the whole equalization area, because They woke up one day and all these changes certainly there are assessed values as against were factored through, all the technicalchanges, all propertyin some provinces that would provide again the census changes, and bang-bang, they sort of significant equalization monies to some of the built on top of each other, and the next thing you recipient provinces. know they did the tally and they are $100 million short. Could that happen to us? Theoretically it I might point out that the federal government, at can, to the extent thatwe have very good people in least I am led to believe, in principle is prepared to our fed-prov branch, constantly watching,trying to be part of those discussions and has paid some get some deeper insight to the hints that come credence to their inclusion. So this whole area of forward from the officials in Ottawa. tax, trying to. measure the taxing capacity of various provinces and various tax fields, is certainly We are always trying to build in that degree of dynamic, but to the extent thatwe have some very conservatism into our estimates so that if there are goodindividuals understanding within this whole tax any surprises, they are on the positive side. It is one field and this whole equalization field, we try and of the great difficulties one has when they are present always the best case for Manitoba. I would developing a budget. It is no different than the say it is in these technical change areas that we municipalities, the school divisions,the universities have been rewarded over the course of the last two coming to me and saying they want certainty years, particularlywith additi onal revenues flowing. associated with the level of expenditures or grants that they can receive over the course of the next Mr. Leonard Evans: I appreciate that this is a number of years. complicated area, but I guess what the minister is basically telling us, we do not know what our The reality is I cannot provide that unlessOttawa equalization payments are going to be at theend of can provide that to me and Ottawa cannot provide this year. You are estimating $1 .085 billion. That thatto me until they know how the economy is going could be out quite substantially given the dynamics to performover the course of the years. Soyes, the of the situation, is that correct? short answer, unfortunately, is yes, there couldbe a surprise. Mr. Manness: Unfortunately, that is correct. On the positive side, as Mr. Neumann just reminded Mr.Leonard Evans: Well, having recognized that, me, one of the taxing fields does include municipal then the minister has to conclude that it is very taxes, but now as we go to new assessment difficult, in fact it is almost impossible to say-1 think systems, a more market-value driven assessment, what he was telling us a while back that his deficit you can imagine then thatthere is greater capacity projections are pretty well right on. Who knows to measure more accurately those values vis-a-vis what will happen throughoutthe year in terms of the other provinces. equalization payments? As a result, you could be out quite substantially, even though you have your You have, for instance, in British Columbia, an ears to the ground through your staff, incredible surge of inflation coming into those tax federal-provincial staff and so on. levies. How would it flow through the whole tax pool, and how ultimately-if you believe in I guess what you can do, and probably will equalization, and we have been talking about it on happen, isthat is you will revise your estimatein the a daily basis in this House with respect to quarterly statements. You may have to revise it. constitutional reform, you would understand then You have some control over expenditures how ultimately the benefit may flow. That is to the obviously. You do not have that much control over good. other usual revenues, but you have set your tax rates and you can guess fairly well as to what they To the negative, of course, is when you have are going to provide given the state of the economy, changes, obviously, through the latest census but this one area of equalization seems to be the numbers. That is an offseton the negative side, but wild card where it is almostimpossible to predict with the member says,well, could you wake up some day any degree of accuracy whatyour deficit will be. and there would be a $100 million loss? The answer is yes. That is exactly what happened in Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, two points: New Brunswick, exactly what happened in the we will change the estimate if we get new province of New Brunswick. information forward that suggests that we should 5200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

change it; and we will try and report that in the time it was set up, we could see that from setting it quarterliesas they come forward. up in '88-89 when the minister first took office with Let me say, though, that ultimately it will be $200 million, right through to '89-90 when it was measured against that new information and/or zero, nothing happened, but then draws occurring ultimately how we did our first estimate as presented in ever increasing amounts since that time: $67.3 in the budget. I can tell the member opposite since million in '90-91 , $1 25 million in '91 -92 and an I have been the Minister of Finance we have not estimated $201 million in '92-93. So 1 am overestimated equalization. That is because I do wondering if the minister could update us on the not want to have $1 00-million bottom-line surprise. status of the fund. What have you got in the fund, So when the department and the division brings to and are we going to see it terminated or somehow me a range of estimates and they say, well, here, or other is he going to-1 do not see any revenues to and this Is three days before we sent the budget to that you have available throw into the fund. I print, and they say, well, here are the variables; this wonder if the minister could comment on that. is what could happenin this three or four areas; we Mr.Manness: Madam Chairperson,as I have said think the swing could be $20 million on the positive, on many occasions to both critics, I guess the $20 million on the negative. Ultimately, somebody Provincial Auditor and I are in a little difference of has to sit in judgment and decide what number is views as to theval ueof the Stabilization Fund. I see going to be printed. it-giventhe uncertaintythat the member talksabout I say to thememb er, I know for sure-andno doubt with respect to equalization and other tax fields-as other jurisdictions have done this-1 could have having a valuable role in trying to deal in an honest printed a deficit $1 00 million less by the fashion with that uncertainty. I do know that the interpretation if I had taken all the positives, if I had Stabilization Fund is depleting. I do know that one looked at all the factors and looked at them in a of the greatest criticisms that I enjoyed from my positive way. I have chosen not to yield to that philosophical friends after I brought down the last temptation and, consequently, at this point in time, budget was that there was some disappointment any revisions that we have had in equalization in a amongstbig C Conservativesthat seemed to be that revenue sense have surpassed those Estimateswe I was draining the savings account, and I guess that put forward in budget. was legitimate in its own way. I do not know whether that was the practice in Let me say that we do not play around with the place from theformer governmentor not,but I know fund to the extentthat we do not dip into it during the I would have a hard time with $1 00-million shortfall, course of a year, that the only way that we may if I had seen that it might be comingand I had not change our mindswith it is in the sense that if we taken that into account before we put the final have had savings on the expenditure side, andwe numbersto print. do notneed to call upon a withdrawal from the fund of the magnitude that we had forecast to meet the * (1640) budgetary deficit line, we do not take it. We leave it Mr. Leonard Evans: I appreciate the minister is a there for everybody to see and so that it can carry cautious person and wantsto be prudent, and that forward into the next year. is fine, butthe fact is that this is an area of-1 am not Let me say in terms of the fund for '91 -92, we trying to criticize, I am just observing what the came in with $267 million. We have earned interest minister is observing. It is an area of great of $1 8 million, giving us $285 million, of which cash uncertainty and one should be prudent, I suppose. is $207 million-and these Repap shares that we The minister has another item there that he can have talked about many times, not to be redeemed, play around with and has really when it comes to are valued at $77.6 million. April 1, '92-93, the new balancing the books or estimating his bottom line, fiscal year, then we will be bringing in $285 million. whether it be, well, what size the deficit may be, and We expect to have interest earning of $16 million. that is the Fiscal Stabilization Fund transfers. We We expect, as I said in the budget, to transfer from have had varying amounts in and out of that fund, the fund roughly $200 million, leaving us roughly and we realize that the auditor is still nottoo happy $1 00 million at the end of this fiscal year, of which with the whole concept. If we look at the financial $23 million is cash, and again $77 million is Repap statistics back through the last few years from the shares. As I have said many times, we will not draw June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5201

upon them until those shares have some cash industries. I was wondering whether there has value. been any action under this new investment-tax So if everything goes, if we do not have big strength program, whether the minister could advise savings on the expenditure side-no, more the committee as to the impact of this tax credit. importantlythan that, I have said that savings onthe Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, because expenditure side in themselves will not preclude us there was not a cost associated within this fiscal from taking a transfer. But if we were to have year, we would not have up-to-date knowledge from significant revenue increases either on the a taxation point of view of the benefits of this equalization area or other areas, such that we did program for yet another year and maybe more. not need to draw transfer funds out of the fund, then If the member is saying, do companies register we might not. Given that there are no changes, we would have $23 million cash at the end of fiscal with us their intentions now to proceed to do '92-93. manufacturing investment or make an investment decision leading to increased machinery, they do Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, Madam Chairperson, of not give us an indication of their intentions, andthe course, if the minister had not chosen to set up the taxation area, we find out about it after the fact. fund in the first place he could have had a surplus of what?-roughly $60 million in 1988-89, because Certainly, we are led to believe, as I have he showed a deficit of $141 million and that was discussions, as the Minister of Industry and Trade because he took $200 million out of revenue to put (Mr. Stefanson) does with those various into what was then the new Fiscal Stabilization businessmen and women who are considering Fund. Obviously, approximately, he would have coming here and/or who are located here and want been able to show a surplus of $60 million. to make a further commitment to capital, we are understanding. This is certainly an area where He would have contributed to reducing the debt there is some interest, and just as soon as the by that amount and, of course, the reason he had economy turnsaround in full fashion and/or,in some $200 million available to throw into the Stabilization cases, the profit situation improves a littlebit better, Fund, I suppose, is because of some windfall we know that full advantage will be taken of this monies from thefederal government and certaintax opportunity by businesses here. decisions that were made by the previous governmentthat brought in sufficient revenues. Of So we are very happy to bring forward this course, the intent at that time was to help the taxation measure, andwe expect thatit will provide decision made by the previous government back in a tremendous stimulus over the course ofthe next that time, '87-88, was to help cope with the deficit number of months. and hopefully work into a surplus situation. * (1 650) At any rate, Madam Chairperson, it is obvious that Mr. Leonard Evans: I am simply going by the the minister has less flexibility now, and unless there minister's own Estimates here, where he indicates is some major turnaround in the economy allowing a revenue impact of minus $3 million for the '92-93 revenues to become much more buoyant, he year. So this is why I asked the question without certainlywill not have the capacity to draw on this knowing the details of the program, just assuming fund as he has had in the past, because he is left that youintended or there is an estimated $3-million with $1 01 million, and as he said, of which only $23 cost to the government of Manitoba for this tax million is cash. credit. I would like to, because we are on a limited time Well, that is what it says here on page 2, under scale and while we could pursue this further, pass Tax Adjustments,revenue impact,mi nus $3 million. on to one or two other areas and ask the minister for In fact, there is a summary-{interjection] $3 million some answers on initiatives taken in the past temporary manufacturing investment tax credits, so budget. Maybe he does not have the answers to these, but in the past budget, he provided a this was the basis of my question. $3-million temporary manufacturing investment tax So in effect there have been no commitments, no credit with the intent of encouragingexpansion and payout thus far, as I understand the minister's upgrading of Manitoba's manufacturing processing statement. 5202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mr. Manness: Again, my point holds, Madam all Ministers of Finance there assembledas to what Chairperson, this is an estimate of foregone Manitoba was doing in its support as an extension revenue in the sense that so many year-ends will of the federal move, and how they had heard that close afterthe close of our'92-93 fiscal year. The that was being talked about in R & D circles, in the greater impact of this tax measure will be in years sense that Manitoba was trying to reach a step to come in a total of $8 million over the life of this further than the Ottawa move, and that, ultimately, program. in time, it would provide benefits. But those benefits Mr. Leonard Evans: There is another area of certainly cannot be expected to flow in basically negative impact on revenue, the cost is half a million three monthsafter the budget. dollars for the payroll tax credit for training costs. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, I appreciate that you Now this is a program that has been around a bit cannot expect the benefits to flow in a couple of longer. It was introduced in the 1990 budget to months, but given the factthat obviously there had encourage private businesses to increase their been some research before instituting this program, investment in training. I am just wondering if the before the minister announced the program, that minister can update us in this area. What is the you would have had some idea of the interest out take-up now of this tax credit? Is he satisfied that there and some idea that it would bring about some this fiscal incentive that he has provided, this tax positive results. credit incentive thathe has provided, is creating the Surely there would have been some research to results that were anticipated? tell you that,well, if we introducethis program, which Mr. Manness: We are aware of roughly 20-plus is a modest one admittedly, there would be firms that have taken advantage of the offset as this-and-this typeof result. I would have thought the against payroll tax on a training basis. We have minister would have had some indication from expanded the criteria so more can enter. There is various companies of their interest in it and what no doubt that we are a little bit disappointed that they might bedoing, not that there would have been more had not comeforward. To this point in time, money spent by the governmentat this point. the cost of the program has not reached the half a At any rate, this whole set of incentives that the million dollars thatwe directedtowards it. ministerannounced in the last budget seems to be It is a good program that is expanding a little bit very modest indeed. In fact, the total net revenue slower than we might wish, andwe are trying to get impact is $7 million. In other words, a cost of $7 additional information out so that those firms that million,assuming there is a take-up for all of these can utilize it andfit the criteria certainlyhave a direct various tax creditsand so on--and exemptions. benefit and immediate benefit if they so wish. I would like to proceedon to two more areas, and Mr.Leonard Evans: Very briefly, can the minister then perhaps the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) give us any comment, provide any comment on the may like to ask some questions, and I know he will. Manitoba Research and Development Tax Credit? One of my questions-two areas-the first area I know it is only half a million dollars estimatedcosts relates to the Manitoba Data Services, or what used for '92-93, but has there been any response to this to be called MDS, whatever it is called now. The program which was designed to encourage R & D names seem to be changing very quickly. in Manitoba through a 15-percent nonrefundable R I would like the minister, if he could, to updateus, & D tax credit? becausewe are still connected, the minister still has Mr.Manness: Madam Chairperson, it did not start representation, I believe, on the board. I would like until after March 11, '92. I mean, we are just two a report before the committee as to what new jobs months after the announcement of the date. have been created in Winnipeg. There were supposed to have been new .iobs created from this Certainlyagai n, as I said previously, the indication divestiture by the government to the private sector, that we have, not only from our firms and, indeed, and I am wondering if the minister could advise us the associations which are close to taxation just what has happened on the employment scene measures, is that this is a worthwhile tax in that corporation. endeavour-butalso, as a matter of fact, I just had it mentioned to me just this past week when I was in Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, there are Ottawa-Hull. Thefederal government indicated to deadlines that are fast approaching. I am led to June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5203

believe by the firm in question that they will make The memberwants to take issue withthe fact that every effort to honour those commitments, and that we have privatized MOS. I am more convincedthan there will be, within the course of the next several ever it was the right decision to take. There are weeks and months, in spite of the great economic alliances being struck as between the present problems that we have gone through over the past owners, IBM now, who are the majority two years in this country, every effort made to live shareholders and smaller firms in Manitoba andin up to the covenants ofthe agreement. Winnipeg which never would have been forged under the old system. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, at any rate, we can all be patient, but frankly there has not been any-1 am • (1 700) not too encouraged by what the minister says. I appreciate we are in a recession and all that, but This new company, ISM, has an outlook to the world that there is no way that Manitoba Data there were certaincommi tmentsmade, there was a Services had the capacity to have. Government is degree of euphoria, the minister had his big-{inte�ection] Okay, the building has been built. downsizing its systems requirements. It has to. It no longer can afford the global expenditure, and Madam Chairperson, MDS had plans to construct MDS ultimately would have been caught in that a building. Yes, in fact, I was the minister scenario, or they would have done what Crowns responsible for MDS for a while, and we were on the have traditionally done over the last 30 years, they verge of approving a building for MDS because it would not downsize, they did not have to because needed one, just for, I mean the reality of the afterall they areowned by the shareholdersand the physical requirement meant that you had to have scrutiny was not there. I say we have a much better expanded physical facilities. So I do not consider system. that any big deal, especially when you give a sweetheart deal, as far as I am concerned, to the We have other providers of information who are company in question. You have given them virtually coming to us on a monthlybasis wanting to compete a private monopoly of servicesto the government- for new government business. We have assured themthat ISM does nothave a locked-inguarant ee. An Honourable Member: For two years. The contract,the five-yearguarantee of $32million Mr. Leonard Evans: For two years, okay, but I base revenues is over haH completed. There is expected some new jobs by now. I am sure the basically two anda haH yearsleft on that. member for Osborne(Mr. Alcock) did too, because I would have to say, as we have said to the he was somewhat enthused by what the minister industry,come forward and make your best deals in was doing. preparation for the next period of time. There is no An Honourable Member: They are coming. private monopoly. I am absolutely convinced, 100 percent certain, we have made the rightdecision as Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, if they arecorning, we a governmentto divest of Manitoba Data Services. are glad. We want them to come, because goodness knows we need the jobs. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, themin ister says there is no monopoly, but as far as I am concerned that is The minister is telling me though from his seat, the only company that is nowin a position to provide and I guess that is permitted by the rules, that there those computer services to this government. No is a building under construction or is about to be other company is doing it as far as I understand. under construction. Does he want to elaborate on They have a monopoly. They are the one supplier. that? I do not considerthat to be that critical in terms Now, if I am wrong- of the value or the benefit of privatizing, because, as I said, there was going to be a new building An Honourable Member: For two more years. regardless. There had to be anew building, but he Mr. LeonardEv ans: For twomore years, but at the is saying there is a new building. I am not sure ifhe present time they have been given a short-term is saying construction has started or it is just on the monopoly. I hope the minister is correct. It will not verge of starting. go beyond-whatis it?-two more years: that will be Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, I am told that the end of it, andthat you will open it. I mean, ifyou this building is on the verge of being constructed, are going to deal with the private sector, put it on an that there are no more hurdles. open basis so that you can get the best possible 5204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

deal, just as you are dealing with the private sector government is being led out of the Manitoba head with other services. office, formerly Manitoba Data Services. Those But you know, it seemed to me that one of the same senior people are still in place. criteria for allowing this divestiture to be Mr.Leonard Evans: How can the ministerbe sure maintained-because the minister always talked that we are not paying unduly excessive prices for about the golden share, that he had the power to the data servicesfrom ISM? How can we be sure, take this asset back, and I presume he still because we are only dealing with one company, it does-<>neof the conditions was that the head office is a monopolisticsituation at the present time? How remain in Winnipeg. But it seems to me that the can we be certain that we are not getting ripped off? effective head office is in Regina. It is not in What mechanism, what procedure doesthe minister Winnipeg. have to ensure that the pricescharged are fair to the Now, if I am wrong, please stand up and correct taxpayers of this province? me. But It seems to me that if we have got a head Mr.Man ness: Madam Chairperson, just as sure as office here, it is in name only. It is a facade. The I was when Manitoba Data Services was in control. real decisions are being made outside of the I believe that the market today has forced greater province, certainlynot in Manitoba. economies. I do know that rates have gone down, Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, the member is as they always did previously. More so than that, completely wrong. There is a Manitoba head office we have put into place a $32-million floor, and of ISM Manitoba that is led now by one Doug indeed if ISM does notdeal fairly we will direct any Onafrychuk. He makes all of the decisions with activity and revenue beyond $32 million. We can respect to the service that is provided to the direct it anywhere we want and we have. Province of Manitoba and its agencies. The It is the forces of the marketplace that have member talks aboutthe head office of thecorporate assured us that ISM has provided Manitoba with as entity being in Regina; he talks about the golden good a deal as would have been the case ifwe had share. I can tell him, Westbridge is no longer even been served by a Crown, i.e., Manitoba Data part of its leadership and its guidance, part of Services. There is no doubt in my mind that when Regina. you set into placea short periodof monopoly for two Now the total corporate entity decisions are being years, nobody isgoing to take advantage of you very made in Toronto. Theywere formerly, under STM. long if they want to have an opportunityto bid again So nothing has really changed. With the golden on a significant revenue base in the systems area share allowed us, through all of these changes of of $32 million. So I say that the forces that guide the ownership, every time IBM had to come and see marketplace are working very well in this case. myself and the government for our sanction. If I Mr. Leonard Evans: I just have one question in have ever seen a golden share work, I have seen it this area, and then I want to exploreone other area through the evolution of the old Manitoba Data very briefly. Just one final question on MDS or ISM, Services. and that is: I would like to know if this Legislature You must imagine how frustrating at times it must can get a copy of a financial report on the have been for IBM, this multinational giant, having operations? I become more and more aware and to comeand deal with Manitoba every time it wanted concerned with the fact that members of the to take a greater shareholding: first of all, with Legislature do not have enough data, do not have getting involved with Westbridge; secondly, taking enough information on the operations of majority ownership; through all of those changes, government, generally. having to come to Manitoba for their sanction. Compared to the Americans-! am not that fussy Indeed, if we evoked that golden share and pulled about the congressional system, but I give the Manitoba's activity out of it, then obviously a big Americans credit. There is far more openness with major componentto that whole activity would have regard to data and operation of government and its been lost. agencies and so on. In as much as you have, we I have seen the golden share work, and it has have a golden share in this, surely the minister has worked well. I also can tell the member that still ISM access to financial reports. I am not asking for and their involvement with the Manitoba hidden state secrets or company secrets, but even June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5205

a financial report-1do not even know whether they what extent they make this information public, but it publish a financial report-but surely the ministerhas would be useful to see, because I for onewould like accessas to how this company is doingin Manitoba. to see an annual reportof the company to show how I think that information should be shared with the many employees they have by type of occupation. members of this Legislature. It should be public pnterjection)Okay , I am not asking for state secrets information because we have a stake in this. or corporate secrets. I am asking for information that should normally be available. So that is my finalquestion on this to the minister. Is he prepared to make available or to have ISM Another area in this final area that I touch on is make available to us a financialstate ment where we the announced-well, I am not sure whether it is can study and look at what they have been doing, announced but it has been publicized in the the degree of operations, the employment, et newspapers abouta manpowertrai ning agreement cetera? that Manitoba may engage in with Ottawa, and this is quite a significant shift if it is to come about, Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, the member is involving, as I understand, $248 million in job asking usto go to a corporation privately set up and training and could revolutionize the way that job ask them, as a condition ofdoing business with the training is delivered in the province. province,to provide all theirfinancials. That is out of the question. What I am prepared to do, as I I think I gleaned from the reply given to a question always have, is to try and lay before the member this afternoon in the Question Periodby the Minister exactly what services we buy for a certain level of of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) that this is not money. That is broken down by department. As a necessarily tied into any constitutional change. At matter of fact, members of Treasury Board have first I had thought that this was part and parcel of spent countless hours going through the systems some constitutional deal that was being evolved in plans, departmentby department, divisions within the various constitutional discussions, but departments,programs within divisions, and seeing apparently that is not necessarilythe case, that this what it is they are buying from ISM. When you add could happen regardless of what happens to them all up, adding or accumulating to $32 constitutional amendments. million-plus, the judgment then is made as to So I wonder if the minister can-although his whether or not we are getting value for money. department may not be delivering the program, Could we buy this service morecheaply somewhere nevertheless, I am sure the minister would be else? That is a legitimate question; that is all involved in terms of the overall negotiations, available for debate. because it is in the area of federal/provincial • (1710) relations and it involves a great deal of money. I know there are a lot of questionsas to what extent I can determine the advisability of providing that the federal government would providethe funding level of detail to the member, but I cannot demand for this additional responsibility that presumably the thatISM share their financials. I mean, they do a lot province of Manitoba is interested in taking on. of other business than just for the government of Manitoba in the province of Manitoba. The member Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry to thinks that is all they do. That is notcorrect. They disappoint the member, but I am not closely have other alliances. They have other agreements associatedwith the developmentof this agreement. with other companies, and that would be all Supposedly it is coming down slowly, and once it contained within their financials. I think they would reaches some concrete status such that Treasury tell me to take a flying leap, quite frankly, if I were to Board is asked to review it in all its detail and ask them. ultimately make recommendation, at that timeI will be closer to it. I am notthat close right now. Mr. Leonard Evans: I can understand what the minister is saying, but does the company not have Mr. Leonard Evans: Fine, I accept what the a financial report, an annual financial report? Of minister has stated. I would just take from that that course, they are dealing with other-hopefully they a lot of this information that has been published in are dealing with other customers. I would the various newspapers is, indeed, a very hope-(interjection)-well, it would seem to me that preliminary situation, which may never come to the minister would have access. I do not know to pass. I justwant to go on record, and in many ways 5206 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

I hope it does not come to pass because I have with the member's thinking or totally with his liking. concerns about: 10. Standards of Employment I wouldask Mr. Rosenhekin due course to give me Training; 1 0. Jurisdictions being involved in dealing a commentary as to-we always have difficulty with with unemployed people. some of our coding, because it never ever breaks I, for one, feel that we are far better off as out so clearly that you can do the coding in the Canadians to have national standards, national fashion that is in keeping with our various thought training programs, national programs of financial processes. assistance to those who want to upgrade But I will undertaketo get back to the member and themselves and becomemore employable. At any try and provide what I canon that area. rate, we will have to wait and see. Mr.Alcock: One other,just an administrative item So with those remarks, I would yield the floor at of the same sort: I note in this Supplementary thistime to the member forOsbor ne. Information for Legislative Review, the Revenue Mr. Alcock: Madam Chairperson, perhaps to Estimates, Manitoba Finance, there is no begin with I can just ask themi nister for a few things comparative data. It is simply '92-93 information. It that I anticipatehe will not be able to provide me with is the first time I have seen a book prepared-one of immediately, but perhaps he could make an these books prepared-in that way, and I am undertakingto have staffprepare itand forward it at wondering whether that was intentional or just an a future time. oversight on the part ofthe department. Ifit was an oversight, in the future couldthey be provided with Just while we are on thewhole question of data comparative datafrom the previous year? processing and the agreement with Manitoba Data Services. I should say,to introduce it, that I, frankly, Mr.Manness: Madam Chairperson, I will look into was positive when this deal was proposed at the that change in format. beginning and I remain so. The fact that IBM is Mr.Alcock: I thank the ministerfor that. involved is an interesting development-givenIBM's I note that over the course ofthis last year there to tendency unload operations and to decentralize was a change in responsibility for the Linnet and downsize the fact they are willing to Invest in Graphics project. Does my memory serve me right this province and continueto maintain an interest in that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has the operations-! think, is a very positive sign. taken over responsibility for thatproject because of I have been tryingto get a sensethough-! note the concerns that were raised relative to the as I have gonethrough the Estimates in the various previous minister? If so, what is the status of that departments that expenditures for project right now? technology/computer services are broken out in Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, we have an each oneof thebudgets. presume I that in the-and agreement in place-the Linnet Graphics. We also I realize thismay be a question for thecomptr oller, have an equity position in that corporation. That so that is one ofthe reasons why I am not goingto corporation is also undertaking to do services, I go through it in any detail right now-coding for believe, worth $1 .8 million with respect to some expenditures there are a series of lines for software, mapping, in the two areas,the exurban study, which hardware, data processing time, consultant's time is going to attempt to map the areas between the and the like. I am wondering if the minister would northeastcity of Winnipeg limits, going through the be willing to undertaketo return to me at some point Selkirk corridor, through to St. Pauls, as one a government-wide expenditure in each one of demonstrationproj ect. those areas? The second issue is, of course, to try, in an Mr. Manness: Well, Madam Chairperson, I will agricultural sense, to map the area in and around, attempt to give the member everything that I can. south of Lake Winnipeg, to try and determine Certainly, the system's plans are brought to us in conceptually whether or not we can develop a great detail, and it is just over the course of the last system which will fit into our agriculture programs, couple of years that we have had them compiled in GRIP particularly, so that we can do more that fashion. surveillance, so that we can try and set up a Now, I know there arevarious codesin place. I database by that latest technology which has do not know whether they would correspond totally application towards agriculture. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5207

So we are buying those services. Yes, I am the If somebody else wantsto come along and have ministerin charge; I have assumed responsibility for access to the very same public data and come out that file, because of the reason mentioned by the with a value-addeddatabase , which is the same as member. what we are involved in right now, so be it. It is a * (1 720) free world. I mean, all we are talking, the raw data is free to everybody. Mr. Alcock: Madam Chairperson, I understand-! am quite interested in the Linnet project. I went Mr. Alcock: Madam Chairperson, I will pursue that down and visited the site and have worked with particularquestion with the minister anothertime, as projects both in the state of Iowa and in British I note that time is very short. Columbia. Part of the proposal was to build a Can I refer the minister to page 43 ofthe 1992-93 cadastral map that would be the base map for all Revenue Estimates, the Supplementary future mapping. Frankly, I think, leaving aside the Information for Legislative Review, down the page niceties of any other relationship with Linnet, the about a third of the way, Social Allowances for creation of such a resource would be a very positive Treaty Indians. This is listed as a recovery from step for the province,a very important one. Canada of 100 percent of social assistance costs The question that arose thoughin the discussions paid by the province of $20,160,000. Is this being I had with the people at Linnet was that having done carried on thebooks as a revenue item because that so, having undertaken the cost to establish such a is still in dispute or are these monies that are not map, you then create a barrier to entry for other contested and will be paid? Was therea discussion resources that wish to come in and establish a with the Minister of Family Servicesbefore that the similar sort of servicein the province. That leads to federal government had refused to pay this? I am all the questions that have traditionally led to the just wondering whether or not the part that is in creation of utilities, basically a monopoly on one sort dispute, is it this $20 million or is it some portion in of service, and the people at Linnet indicated that addition to this $20 million? therehad been some discussionswith the province Mr. Manness: I believe some portion of that is in relative to treating that like an "information utility n so ' dispute. When we printed the Estimates, a hard that they even suggestedthat pricing for access to decision had to be made at that time. We would not that part of a process could be controlled and the showour hand as backing away from our belief, the pricingset much in the same way we would set it for status quo system should be maintained. one of the larger utilities, i.e., through the Public Utilities Board or some sort of publicly controlled So, obviously, with the announcement made by process. Have there been further discussions on the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) that? here some several weeks ago, and thefact that we will backstop the municipalities through this cash Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, the short shortagetime, that does not indicate thatwe will not answeris no, there have not been. Let me say, that proceed with courtaction, and ultimately we expect may unfold at some time in the future, but certainly we will win the case, and this will flow. It may not that is not the driving force behind what we have flowin terms of this fiscal year, but we expect to win entered into with Linnet. Let me also say that if the case. anybodyelse wants to come along and have access to public data and build their own value-addeddata Mr. Alcock: The current status of the forest fire system, whether it is in land-related geographic payments? systems or in any other area, they are welcome to Mr. Manness: That file is closed. The First do so. But if there is value added, if a lot of timeand Minister (Mr. Filmon) brought home a cheque, effort and resource has gone into taking basic raw roughly $30 million delivered to him about a month data, which is free to the public and available to the ago, it seems to me. So we have received-yes,the public, and manipulating it or changing it into a First Minster brought it home in his pocket. fashion that now has value, well, then I would sayto the peoplewho have done all that work of which we Mr.Alcock: But for a short period oftime. are a shared partner at this point in time, then On to a different area: Can the minister tell us the obviouslythat is not a public monopoly in itself. current credit rating for the Province of Manitoba? 5208 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mr. Manness: A-plus, A-1 , and a very favourable lookingfor a billion dollar issue, quite frankly-wedid A-plus and A-1. If there were to be a change today, not have the need for that type of money-and obviously it would be changed, in my viewpoint at although I certainly was not looking for an all-time least-and thisis an editorial comment on my part-it record, I had set a target. would bemoved upward if it were going to be moved I will tell youright now, Madam Chairperson, I had at all. set as my own personal target, I would have been Mr. Alcock: Given that rating and today's interest happy with, an issue of $350 million. Given the rates, what can the government borrow six-month information I had at the time, I felt that 7.25 did not money for? represent that great of a risk, given that it was all Mr. Manness: Treasury Bills, three-month money paid to Manitobans, given thatit was all taxablein about 5.30, six months5.83. the province. I still think it wasa very, very, good deal, and I, quite frankly, am prepared to answer any Mr. Alcock: Can the minister explain for my criticism. education, when we have a credit rating of that sort and we can access six-month money for 5.83 or • (1730) 5.92 as it was a week ago, why we are paying 7.25 Mr.Alcock: Madam Chairperson, justto deal with for HydroBonds? themin ister's first commentabout long-term money. Mr. Manness: I guess the membercould ask the Any of the analysts thatI have discussed this with same question,why would you enter into a 1 0-year suggested the HydroBonds have to be compared deal which todaywould costus for Canadian money with six-month money, because they are 8.8. The member could ask the very same redeemable in six months, and that statement has question. He does not have to focus in on been made on several of the discussionsthat have HydroBonds. He can askthe same question: Why taken place relative to these bonds. In fairness to would you then go to the Canadian market for the minister, prime rate has dropped, and the 5.83 1 0-year money which would cost you over 9 or 5.92 or whatever the rate for six-month money percent? The question is thesame. was at the time that the minister set the rate was An HonourableMember: No, itis not. somewhat higher than the rate which has been quoted, but I waslegitimately interested as to why Mr. Manness: And I would say to him, it depends we have as big a spread as that. on what risk you want to attachto the length of term that you are prepared to borrow money. I can Let me just goon a step further. I understand too indicate to him, and I know he has been somewhat we pay a 97.5 centfee to brokersand banksand the critical of our 7.25 percent coupon rate. I can like who sell these bonds for every $1 00 worth of indicate that the province of Saskatchewan just bonds that are sold. I further understand that the came out on a savingsbond, and I am led to believe province of Alberta which had a similar bond they are prepared to offer to the Saskatchewan program pay a fee of 75 cents, and the fee for investor a coupon rate of 7 percent. During the Canada Savings Bonds is considerablylo wer. I am period since we have come out, of course, I do not just wonderingwhat the thinkingwas in establishing have to remind him what has happened to prime a rate at that level. rates. Theydropped significantly, so I donot know Mr. Manness: Well, Madam Chairperson, I will what he is trying to say. gladly engagein debate on that issue. Let me say I do know one yearwhen I brought out series No. first of all, though, the point I probably did not make 2, I offered a rate of 12.25, andI know the series did before to the previous question is that five-year not flyvery well because a week later guaranteed money compared to the HydroBonds, which has a investment certificates moved to a little bit beyond floor now of 7 percent-if I were to go to the 12, close to 13. I am sorry, I have to make a marketplaceoutside of Manitoba forthat same term , judgment at one given point in time, Friday I would have to pay 8 718 forfive-year money. That afternoon, usually before the beginning of the sale, is what Hydro would have to pay for five-year money and I take the best information I have available at if we had to go to the Canadian domestic market. the time. I pretty well was provided with a range, So I see still an incredible saving for Manitoba between7 percentand 7.25 percent. I decided that, Hydro, and of course the benefactor of that is our given what was at risk, even though we were not own bond purchasers. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5209

Now, with respect to the commissions, the bonds with five-year money because they are member is right, I provide a 15/1 6ths of 1 percent redeemable in six months. commission, or 0.9375. Alberta is at 3/4s of 1 That is not my statement, I have heard that one percent, 0.75, but I ask the member to bear in mind made on radio and television, and any time there that their programs, particularly Saskatchewan and was a discussion of these bonds while they were Alberta savings bond programs, have been running being sold was that it was wrong to compare them much longer than thatof Manitoba Hydro. They are to five-year money because they were redeemable. well established. Mr. Manness: Well, Madam Chairperson, the I understandin Alberta's case theyhave been in member is right, but so what? We expect the bulk place since the micl-'80s, with the first rollovers of that to stay out for the five-year term. That has occurring in 1990. As a result of the large base and been our experience. As a matter of fact, I think I rollovers beginning to occur, the sales commission have seen somewhere the level of rollovers in our was reduced from 7/8, or .825 percent, to 3/4, for firstnumber of issues. their '91 campaign. So they just, too, have made a Well, Series II, for instance, 2 percent; andSeries reduction. Ill, $1 1 million at 3.1 percent, rolled out of those I have to say in all honesty to the member, and issues. So, yes, people can redeem them in six this may comeas advance notice to the commission months, but that has not been the history. houses, that in another year too we may be looking Mr. Alcock: Madam Chairperson, andat the risk of at beginning to shave these commission rates. We revealing how little I know aboutthis-while I have had to-you must remember where we came from. not been adverse to that thus far in thisdepartmen t-! We came from the Manitoba savingsinstr umentthat am told, as they attempted to walk me throughthis, had occurred a few times through the '70s, where that there was something about an inverted yield the total uptake, or the highest one, I think,was $53 curve, and that for the firsttwo issues in particular million, but most of them were in the $25 m�lion and up to the third that that was indeed the case. range. That was one of the reasons why there was not a high rollover, because the rates overall were Indeed, if we were going to go to the cost of doing dropping, butthat is not the case with this issue. the advertising, and the member probably objects to that, we had to make sure to average the cost, that Mr. Manness: Well, Madam Chairperson, the we had to have a pretty successful issue. Part of member is right. There was an invertedyield curve that was making sure that the commission agents for the firsttwo issues. There has not been for the went out and sold the dam thing, because there last two. Ultimately, if indeed interest rates six were some incredibly competitive instruments on months from now jumped up beyond the floor of 7 the street at this particular point in time, when percent and people saw that they could lock into another instrument, five years at a level beyond the interest rates were in the realm of 11, 12, and 13 floor, yes, there could be a high level of percent. redemptions. As we survey the scene over thenext So this was the incentive, and I say the incentive two or three years we do not see that happening. has worked extremely well. Now that we have the That is a judgment call, but right nowwe do not see Manitoba HydroBond well established, maybe it is that as being problematic. time we begin to look at some reduction in these Mr.Alcock: Madam Chairperson, the minister was commission rates. going to answer the question about the advertising Mr. Alcock: The minister has already referenced costs in this year's program. my next question on this which is the advertising Mr. Manness: The advertising budget for Series costs for this year's program, and in doing so, can IV-$289,000. Series Ill was $338,000. Series II he also comment-he makes the point that at the was $71 0,000. Series I was $827,000. What we time they issued this, this five-year money was have done, and I have been very judicious in this, is going to cost 8 and 7/8ths of a percent,and yet any that I have said that we are not going to redo the of the analysts that I have heard speak on this or ads. We will continueto use more or less the same that I have personally spoken to about this suggest theme. We do not need to buy the amount oftime that it is an unfair comparison to compare these that we have in the first two issues. So that iswhy 5210 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

the costs have come down significantly in the last and payroll tax, $1 .8 million. Those are the levels two. outstanding. I am led to believe that it is at a level Mr. Alcock: Madam Chairperson, I thank the more or less similar to the year previous. minister for that. Perhaps at this point-1 notice that Madam Chairperson: Item 1.(b) Executive time is drawing short and I believe there was a Support: (1 ) Salaries $342,700-pass; (2) Other desire to leave a few minutes for Sports. I do have Expenditures $81 ,500-pass. one more area that I want to have a discussion with 1.(c) Financial and Administrative Services: (1 ) the minister about, but perhaps we could move to Salaries $386,800-pass; (2) Other Expenditures Minister's Salary as this is more in the nature ofthe $33,900-pass. broader discussion and leave the-oh, I have one more detailed question before I do that, but then 1.(d) Human Resource Management: (1 ) perhaps we could pass some of these and get down Salaries $192,1 00-pass; (2) Other Expenditures to the final area that I would like to discuss on the $21 ,200-pass. Minister's Salary. 1.(e) Payments Re: Soldiers' Taxation Relief $3,000-pass. Now, the telecommunications tax cut that you offered, the 1-800 number sales tax relief: what Item 2. Treasury Division, (a) Administration: (1 ) analysis was done in preparation for that? Are there Salaries $1 08,600-pass; (2} Other Expenditures specific concernsthat one is hoping to attract with $34,600-pass. that? 2.(b) Capital Finance: (1 ) Salaries Mr. Manness: Yes, Madam Chairperson, there $277,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $19,300- was an economic analysis doneas such. That was pass. done purely as an economic development measure 2.(c) Money Management and Banking: (1 ) that was seen as reaching out to those firms with Salaries $394,600-pass; (2) Other Expenditures incredible telecommunications demands, $390,000-pass. recognizing that we probably have a long-distance 2.(d) Debt and Investment Services: (1 ) Salaries rate structure in Manitoba which maybe puts us at $448,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $18,000- some competitive disadvantage, and that we pass. wanted to do what we could in terms of the budget to tryand reach out to those who are large users of Resolution 49: RESOLVED that therebe granted telecommunications to try and entice them to look to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,690,900for at Manitoba. Finance, Treasury Division, $1 ,690,900forthefiscal year endingthe 31stday of March, 1993-pass. * (1740) Item 3. Comptroller's Division (a) Comptroller's Mr. Alcock: Just looking across at Mr. Puchniak I Office: (1) Salaries $100,200-pass; (2) Other am reminded of one other question. I should also Expenditures $3,500-pass. thank Mr. Puchniak for his very rapid response to some questions I have had on the application of 3.(b) Financial and Management Systems: (1) sales tax. The uncollected tax in this last year, are Salaries $626,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures we up, down? How are we doing? $120,1 00-pass. Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, before we 3.(c) Disbursements and Accounting: (1) rush away, first of all, I would like to thank Mr. Charlie Salaries $2,055,800-pass; (2) Other Expenditures Curtis the Deputy Minister, Barry Thomson within $984,200-pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from Other the debt division, and Ron Neumann within the Appropriations $526,600-pass. Federal-Provincial Division and, of course, Mr. 3.(d) Legislative Building Systems Support: (1 ) Puchniak, head of the Taxation Division, for helping Salaries $364,800-pass; (2) Other Expenditures me today-and members opposite or in the gallery $653,200-pass. who have helped also. Resolution 50: RESOLVED that there be granted Let me say, Madam Chairperson,that retail sales to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,381,600 for tax at the endof the fiscal year-end '92-March 31 , Finance, Comptroller's Division, $4,381,600 for the '92-our recoveries outstanding: $8.4 million in fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1993- sales tax; corporation and capital tax, $1 .9 million; pass. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 521 1

Item 4. Taxation Division (a) Management and Item 9. Public Debt (Statutory): (a)(1 ) Interest on Research: (1 ) Salaries $643,000-pass; (2) Other the Public Debt of the Province and expenses Expenditures $57,1 O();Jass. incidentalthereto$1 ,237,400,000-pass;(2) Interest on Trust and Special Funds $89,600,00Q;Jass. 4.(b) Taxation Administration: (1) Salaries $2,683,900; (2) Other Expenditures $1 ,21 9,600- 9.(b) Less - Amounts of Interest and Other pass. Charges to be received from: (1) Manitoba Telephone System $70,800,000-pass; (2) 4.(c) Audit: (1) Salaries $4,255,30();Jass; (2) Manitoba Hydro $325,000,00();Jass;(3) Manitoba Other Expenditures $453,00();Jass. Housing and Renewal Corporation $50,100,000- Resolution 51 : RESOLVED that there be granted pass; (4) Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,31 1 ,900 for $23,400,000-pass; (5) Other Government Finance, Taxation Division, $9,31 1 ,900for the fiscal Agencies $7,200,00();Jass; (6) Other Loans and year ending the 31st day of March, 1993-pass. Investments $165,300,00Q;Jass; (7) Sinking Fund Investments $230,000,00Q;Jass. Item 5. Federal-Provincial Re lations and Research Division (a) Economic and Federal­ * (1 750) Provincial Research Branch: (1) Salaries Item 1 0. Expenditures Related to Capital (a) $917,90();Jass; (2) OtherExpenditures $274,900- Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets pass. $1 ,300,00Q;Jass. 5.(b) Manitoba Tax Assistance Office: (1 ) Resolution 56: RESOLVED thatthere be granted Salaries $253,30Q;Jass; (2) Other Expenditures to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,300,000 for $42,90();Jass. Finance, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the Resolution 52: RESOLVED thatthere be granted fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,489,000 for 1993-pass. Finance, Federal-Provincial Relations and Item 1.(a) Minister's Salary. Research Division, $1 ,489,000 for the fiscal year Mr. Alcock: Madam Chairperson, I have one ending the 31st day of March, 1993-pass. relatively simple question for the ministerthat may Item 6. Insurance and Risk Management (a) lead to oneor twoother relatively simple questions Salaries $1 80,00Q;Jass; (b) Other Expenditures for the minister. $13,900; (c) Insurance Premiums $1 ,870,000- This minister has been Minister of Finance now pass; (d) Less: Recoverable from Other for almost four and a quarter years. You have Appropriations $1 ,700,00();Jass. worked away at trying to determine the economic Resolution 53: RESOLVED thatthere be granted future of this province. You have presented five to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $363,900 for budgets. Thedata to date is thatthe province is not Finance, Insurance and Risk Management, for the doing terribly well economically, whether it has fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1993- experienced recession,a we know that, butit seems pass. to have fared more poorly in this recession than Item 7. Treasury Board Secretariat: (a) Salaries other provinces in this country. I would like to ask $2,369,000-pass; (b) Other Expenditures the ministerif he can tell us why? $287,00Q;Jass. Mr. Manness: Madam Chairperson, the member has made a remarkable political recovery once he Resolution54: RESOLVED that there be granted has fallen under this three-letterquesti on, why? Let to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,656,000 for me say to the member, we are more or less on Finance, Treasury Board Secretariat, for the fiscal course in many respects. I will say to him, as I have year endingthe 31st day of March, 1993-pass. said to other members of this House, the nation of Item 8. Tax Credit Payments. Canada is not going to come out of its present Resolution 55: RESOLVED that there be granted economic demise unless it is led by an export to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $241 ,000,000 recovery to the U.S. for Finance, Tax Credit Payments, for the fiscalyear As a matter of fact, if one wants to search the ending the 31st day of March, 1993-pass. record and look at historical trends, we would still be 5212 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

in the '81-82 recession if the Americans had not retail sales tax area in itself has no Mure foundation pulled us out. That is a reality, and I do not think attached to it. there is anybody thatcan argue with that. That is So the member says, but what have you done?­ why, I guess, I have said from Day One, I am not You have failed over five years. Look at the afforded the luxury of providing short-term relief. numbers, particularly the '91 numbers. I As a matter of fact, this government is provided acknowledge that if we had been at 1 .2 percent with very few alternatives, very few options in negative growth instead of 1.6 percent negative dealing with the situation that Manitoba vis-a-vis the growth, we would not have been 1Oth out of 1 0; we other provinces, indeed, Canada as a whole. So I probably would have been fifth or sixth out of 10, if listen very carefully to members opposite who not above the national average. almost on a daily basis ask us to spend more or What he is saying is that you miss economic reprioritize our expenditures. But, of course, when growth by $200 million over a base of $22 billion or you ask us where to cut back, I never ever get the $23 billion or $25 billion. I cannot argue with the other side of that request. numbers. The numbers change. They are a So the question is then, what do we do? Do we reflection of the point in time. But I do say to him go and tryand create some mid-term stimulus either that just like I do not, I cannot, lay all the blame to by-as the NDP would have us do-goingand create the former Pawley government, because these jobs for the sake of creating jobs, all on the basis of situations build over a period of 15 years, I ask for borrowed money? Do we listen carefully to what the the same consideration from members opposite, Liberals are saying,particularly their Rnance critic, that the solution cannot be found inthe space of four who in his latest literature is calling for a three-month or five budgets. moratorium of sales tax or at least a reductionof the I take some satisfaction that we have not sales tax rate for some periodof time? increased taxes. I take some satisfaction that we I say,if you know forsure the recovery is coming, have reduced taxes. I never hear any comment and if you really believe that you can have a coming from the memberso pposite, when they said recovery as a result, purely as a result of bringing that we would maintain our cascading if we ever forward consumerconfi dence,and Manitoba as an went into the preharmonization. We took away island as compared to the rest of Canada, the rest cascading. That was a $30-million reduction in tax of North America. If you really believe that, then I revenues. I have to think that there was some may want to listen to the member. But I do not stimulation to the economy as a result of that. But I believe it, and I do not believe he believes it. do not hear any and I do not expecttributes from members opposite. pnte�ection] Because in reality, if you failed, first of all consumer confidence in itself is not going to bring Well, the conceptwasthere. I said from Day One, us into being, because it is going to take the I think it is dishonest to have hiddentaxes. The only manufacturing industry, newly defined, because it is province in Canada that I know of that has forced the GST federally to be a visible tax-I can tell you, changing. It is changing radically, it is changing I have taken some heat over that. I have taken radically in Manitoba. It is changing radically in some considerable heat over that. But I digress. Canada, it is changing radically in all of the free The member says, what are you doing for the market world. economy? So taking that into account, that it is not going to Well, firstly, I do not necessarily sense that the happen, recoveryis not going to happen as a result trickle-down theory that the members say I am so of consumer confidence per se, it is going to have convinced works. I am not a believer that it is going to take into account the new reality of the to happen overnight. But I am telling the members manufacturing industry. Taking all that into opposite, I am trying to find every scarce dollar that account, then you had better make sure, whatever we can to put in the hands of my colleague, the path you follow, has some future foundation. Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. That is why I say to the NDP, particularly, make­ Stefanson), so that he has a little bit-a littlebit -when work jobs have no foundation associated with it. I he goes and knocks on the corporate board room say to theLiberals, trying to provide taxrelief in the doors, he and the Premier (Mr. Filmon). June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5213

He said: Look, this is what the tax regime has want to make this-when we urged the government been in the province of Manitoba for five years, and to engage in job training programs and so on we are we now have dropped in rank from 1Oth, the 1Oth talking about a stimulus for the cyclical problem. highest taxation regime, to somewhere in mid-range We are not talking about the long run. That is to lower. another, that is a structural problem, and we have a We have done that, so at least he can get into the very serious set of structural problems in this corporate board room door, which we could not do province. We are seeing an erosion of our before; and thatis the truth. industries. We are seeing depopulation of rural Manitoba; there are some long-term structural They say: Yeah, but this is a competitive bid. problems, and when we talk about job training and There are a lot of people knocking on our doors so on surely we are talking about, hopefully, a these days. You know, we believe in free short-term period. We are talking about an enterprise, but a littlebit freer, the better. What have anticyclicalprob lem. We are not suggestingfor one you got to help? minute that job training programs andso on are for At least the minister has a little bit; he does not the long-term 20-, 30-, 40-year development. So I have much, but he has a few dollars in his pocket. just wanted to clarify that. He said: Well, on the infrastructure side, we will Unfortunately I would say, I agree with the consider this; and on the regulation side, we will minister: a Jot of what happens here depends on considerthat; and if we can help with some moving, what happens to the American economy. A Jot of we will do what we can. No way we compete what happens to Canada's economy depends on against Alberta. He cannot. In our view, that is the what happens to the American economy, and that process we are trying to follow, because the is a problem we have. We are far too dependent on alternative to that Is for me again to borrow. I can the American economy. Unfortunately, we have not go out-1 know we have established enough credit diversified, which we have all talked about in the with the province-!can probably go out andrun the past, butwe have not done so. It is just thefact. So deficit up another $200 million or $300 million and it seems to me that we really are sortof throwing up we could borrow it andwe could try and buy some our hands andsayi ng, well, we will just roll with the big industry. I can tell youthat is not going to work, waves, roll with the punchesand thatis aboutall we and a fast quick fix as far as put a moratorium in can be. So having said that, I think these people some tax field is not going to work either. want to go on to some otherdepartments, so we will carry on some othertime. * (1800) MadamChairper son: Item 1.(a) Minister's Salary So when you lookaround at a list of optionsthere $20,600--pass. are not very many, there are not very many at all. So I ask the members opposite, I ask Manitobans, Resolution 48. RESOLVED thatthere be granted to follow the course on which we are embarked. It to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,081 ,800 for is maybe slow. It is slower than we would like, but Finance, Administration and Finance for the fiscal I can tell you it will change a year from now. It will year ending the 31stday of March, 1993-pass. have changed a year from now if the Americans This concludes the Estimates for the Department brought us out ofthis problem because of importing of Finance. Canadian goods and Manitoba goods. We must remember, our economy takes 70 percent or 80 ENVIRONMENT percent of its lead from the national economy. That is a fact. We will never get away from that. So I am Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): The sorry, Madam Chairperson, ! talkedabout a number Estimates for the Department of Environment. We of issues, but I have triedto bring them all together are on item 2. Environmental Management for in answering the member's problem. reference for committee members, page 53. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, just very briefly. I Item 2.(a) Environmental Operations: (1) thought the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) was Salaries $3,461 ,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures going to make some sort of acomment. I just want $608,800--pass. to make a clarification, just one minute. I have not 2.(b) Environmental Management: (1) Salaries dragged this out. I finished 40 minutes ago. I just $3,313 ,600-pass; (2) Other Expenditures 5214 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

$1 ,1 04,900-pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from FITNESS AND SPORT OtherAppropriations $1 1 0,000-pass. MadamChairperson (Louise Dacquay): We will 2.(c) Legislation and Intergovernmental Affairs: now consider the Estimates for the Department of (1 ) Salaries $135,500-pass; (2) Other Expenditures Fr tness and Sport. Does the honourable minister $95,000-pass. have an openingstate ment? 2.(d) Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Corporation $2,000,000-pass. Fitness and Sport) : Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I have an openingsta tement on both 2.(e) Joint Environmental Assessment Review: Sport and Fitness, but I am more than prepared to (1) Salaries $1 09,900-pass; (2) Other Expenditures table it with unanimous consent. $443,600-pass. Madam Chairperson: Does the critic for the 2.(f) Alcohol Beverage Container Recycling official opposition wish to make an opening Program $600,000-pass. statement? Resolution39: RESOLVED that therebe granted Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake) : No, Madam to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 1 ,763,100 Chairperson. for Environment, Environmental Management, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, Madam Chairperson: Does the critic for the 1993-pass. Second OppositionParty wish to make an opening statement? Item 3. Environmental Advisory Organizations (a) Clean Environment Commission: (1) Salaries Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): No. $232,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures Mr.CIH Evans: Just a few questionswith the time $123,400-pass. allowed. Couldthe mi nister just indicate what policy the Sports and Fitness Directorate has for the 3.(b) Manitoba Environmental Council upcomingyear and are there any changes that he $50,000-pass. perceives, any additions, deletionsthat we can work Resolution 40: RESOLVED thatthere be granted with? to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $405,800 for Mr.Ste fanson: Again, because ofthe lim ited time, Environment, Environmental Advisory I would be more than prepared-if the honourable Organizations, for the fiscal year ending the 31st member has not had a chance to see it yet, I would day of March, 1993;lass. provide him with copies ofthe Sport policy that we Item 4. International Institute for Sustainable brought in last year which is good stuff, as Development. mentioned by my colleague, in terms of outlining the value of Sport in all respects. So I certainly will Resolution 41 : RESOLVED that therebe granted provide the honourable member with those to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,375,000 for documents. Environment, International Institute for Sustainable Development, for the fiscalyear ending the 31st day That Jed to the establishment of a task force in of March, 1993;lass. conjunction with the Manitoba Sports Federation that is mandated with the responsibility of At this time, I would request that the minister's developing,I will use the expression, an action plan staff please leave the Chamber so that we can deal for Sport. That task force has seven with item 1.(a) Minister's Salary. representatives, three from the Sports Federation, 1.(a) Minister's Salary $20,600-pass. three appointed by the province, and with our joint chairman, Mr. AI Macativish, who was the chair of Resolution 38: RESOLVED that there be granted the very successful World Curling Championships to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,933,300 for we held here in Manitoba, they are now taking that Environment, Administration and Finance, policy and turning it into much more of a working $1 ,933,300 for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of plan. I anticipate that their report will be ready March, 1993;lass. sometime during 1992. So I look forward to that This concludes the Estimates for the Department report, and I will certainly share that with my of Environment. honourable colleague, as I will with all members. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 521 5

In terms of the Fr tness policy, once again the Mr. Cllf Evans: The minister then is indicating that Fitness Directorate was very active during 1 991-92. there is no specific time limit as to the committee. Their biggest strength is their ability to networkwith Because of going back to the City of Winnipeg, there communities, with municipal governments, with is no specifictime schedule to get the committeeon community organizations, with other government the move. It is just open right now, nobody is departments andas part of that, continue to work on making any moves? programs such as Fit Week, which is held in May of Mr. Stefanson: There are time lines in terms of each year, Fit-4-Fun program, Active Living, also reporting,and the committeeis to reportby January co-ordinating a pilot project in the community of of '93, I believe. There are time lines in terms of a Gimli having to do with the national fitness decision being made whether or not a new arena is programs. to be built in the province of Manitoba. I believe that * (1 81 0) date is-and I would stand to be corrected, I can So once again, they have been very active in provide the details later to honourable members-but terms of networking, and that is thegrea test strength I believe it is July of 1994. that they bring is the ability to network with So there are time lines in terms of the committee communities, as well as the supportwe provide to reporting, but a major part of the process is the the University of Manitoba in terms of the delivery of raising of $1 0 million in capital from the private fitnessprograms. sector. The private sector has been awaiting the We provide a grant ofsome $60,000,and we also actual signing of a formal agreement, which to date provide $1 0,000to theManitoba Fitness Leadership has not been finalized for several reasons, but my Development organization for the development of understanding is that it is imminent. standards. Once again, both departments, both Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, Schedule 12 directorates were very active in '91-92. in the book indicates that the province's Mr. Cllf Evans: With the involvement of commitment with the City of Winnipeg for major government with the Winnipeg Jets and the sports facilities terminated March 31, '92. Can the formation of the committee on the new arena, can minister indicate whether or not that is being the minister indicate to us the meetings and renewed, or is everything on hold pending some consultations, when they are going to become in kind of conclusion to the new arena proposal, or effect? Are they going to bepublic, and if not, why? what is the status of negotiationswith respect to a If they are, when can we see foresee some action new agreement? on this committee? Mr. Stefanson: As the honourable member points Mr. Stefanson: Certainly, the findings of the out, that was thefinal year of a five-yearagreement committee will ultimately become public. In terms whereby the City of Winnipeg put in $5 million, the of how they function, that remains to be seen. The Manitoba Sports Federation $5 million, and the committee, as I believe everyone in this House Province of Manitoba $5 million. Thatfund still has knows, has been appointed jointly by the Premier approximately $4million of unallocatedfunds. (Mr. Filmon) and by the mayor and is chaired by Mr. Originally they were earmarked for a training Art Mauro. centre, but the decision wasmade that therewere Unfortunately, they have not been all that active probably more important aspects, other facility to date because they have been waiting for an actual requirements in the city of Winnipeg. With that in agreement to be reached between the Winnipeg mind,with $4million stillto allocate, a decision was to Jets, betweenthe private sector group that is going made that there wasno need certainly extend this to raise $1 0 million in capital between the City of agreement at this point, particularlykeeping in mind Winnipeg, Winnipeg Enterprises and the Province that the city of Winnipeg is bidding on the 1999 of Manitoba. That agreement has not been Pan-American Games, and it remains to be seen finalized and signed to date. My understanding is, what will happen with that bid and what the facility if you recall it has to go back to City Council under requirements will be as a result. That decision will their original approval, and it is scheduled to go back be made in Novemberof this year. to Winnipeg City Council sometime in the next week Manitoba has also been awarded the 1997 or two, I believe. Canada Games, and it remains to be seen which 5216 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

communities will end up hosting that. The our party, and I think the New Democratic Party as community of Brandon has expressed interest; well, and probably the minister. He has many Selkirk has expressed some interest; the city of complaints about the waythat the association has Winnipeg has expressed some interest. So, again, functioned in the past. depending on what happens with those particular In particular, Mr. Matiowski he makes many games, it will impact on facility enhancements in the complaints about. He has put those in writing province of Manitoba. repeatedly. I wonder if the minister has had an So recognizing that$4 million is still remaining to opportunityto review his most recent concerns as be allocated and these other issues outstanding, a expressed In writing, and whether or not there is a decision was made that there was no need to extend response which has gone out to Mr. Boroditsky or any agreement at this particular point in time. an internal investigation flowing from the report of Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, I note in the the Ombudsman which did exonerate to a certain notes, as well as the bid where the 1999 extent the commission, but not totally. Pan-American Games, it indicates that Mr.Stef anson: MadamChairperson, for the sake presentationswill be made tothe Canadian Olympic of time,some time ago, I met with Mr. Boroditsky. Association in May and October of 1992. That is The honourable member is correct that we had an with respect to the 1999 Pan-American Games is it? audit done of the Boxing and Wrestling Mr. Stefanson: My apologies. I missed the date Commission. It made some, what I would call, fairly that was referred to, Madam Chairperson. minor recommendations for changes. But, certainly, some recommendations for changes Mr.Edwar ds: The indicationin the notes is that the which we will be acting upon fairly shortly. presentation will be made to theCanadian Olympic I recently received subsequent correspondence Association in May and Octoberof 1992 this year. from Mr. Boroditsky which I have not had an I assume that presentation is with respect to the opportunity to reply to yet. I would certainly gladly 1999 Pan-AmericanGames? sit down with the honourable member for St. James Mr. Stefanson: Yes, the member is absolutely (Mr. Edwards) or the Sport critic from the Liberal correct,a preliminarypresentation was forwarded in Partyand share additionalinformation on that issue. May of thisyear. The site selectioncommittee from Madam Chairperson: The honourable member the Canadian Olympic Association was here just a for St. James (Mr. Edwards) for one very quick couple of weeksago looking at our facilities, as they question. are doing in all of thecities that have putin proposals for the 1999 Pan-American Games. Mr. Edwards: With respect to the new arena, I recently met with a group promoting an arena site The final submission has to be in this fall, at The Forks. I know the minister has heard from September, October, with a decision-! might have this group as well; there seem to be a few proposals said '93 when I referenced the date. The decision out. I heard some of the answer to my friend's will be made this November in terms of which question commenting on this. Can the minister Canadian city is awarded the rights to be our indicate what state these negotiations are at? designation for the 1999 Pan-Am Games. Where are we going, in a nutshell, from here with Mr.Edw ards: Is there any assurance that Canada respect to the new arena? will get the 1999 Pan-American Games? Is it Mr. Stefanson: Very briefly, Madam Chairperson, allocated by country? the committee I referred to, chaired by Art Mauro, Mr.Stef anson: That decision has not been made, has two fundamental responsibilities. One, is the but all indications are that the 1999 Pan-American whole operating administrative side of the Games will be coming to Canada. But a final operations of the Winnipeg Jets and being sure that decision has not been made, and that will not be all of the conditions and criteria are met. made until some time in 1993, I believe. The other one is the issue of reviewing the entire Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, on an issue of an arena for the province of Manitoba in unrelated issue, the boxing commission has come terms of the economic impact, the costs, the under some criticism from a gentleman by the name locations, what the benefits might be to the of MartinBoroditsky, who has written extensivelyto economy, how self-sufficient an arena can be and June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5217

so on. That committee has been awaiting the Committee of Supply has adopted certain finalization, the signed agreements which I resolutions, directing me to report the same and indicated had not been signed to date. I anticipate asks leave to sit again. that will be occurring in the next couple of weeks, I move, seconded by the honourable member for reflecting the terms as outlined I believe in last Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings), that the report of the December of '91 when the issue firstwas ultimately committee be received. agreed to. So until that agreement is in place the committee we refer to has been holding off having Motion agreed to. the meetings with all of the groups that have put House Business forward ideas and concepts for arenas and multipurpose facilities. Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House * (1 820) Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, before we recess, I would like to, on house business, refer Madam Chairperson: I am interrupting the certain bills to the Law AmendmentsCommittee. I proceedings of the Committee of Supply because would like to refer Bills 86, 87, 93 and 97 to the Law the total time allowed for Estimates consideration Amendments Committee, and the committee itself has now expired. will decide at what time theywill hear them, whether We will now proceedto pass Resolution 57. that is tonight or tomorrow. Resolution 57: RESOLVED thatthere be granted Madam Deputy Speaker: It has been moved by to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $10,943,900 the honourable government House leader (Mr. for Rtnessand Sport, Lotteries Funded Programs Manness), seconded by the honourable Minister of for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Bill 86, 87, 93 1993-pass. and 97 be referred to the committee of Law I would just like to take this opportunity to thank Amendments. Agreed? all members of the House for the courtesy and Some Honourable Members: Agreed. consideration shown this Chairperson during this lengthy Estimates process. Madam Deputy Speaker: Okay. As previously agreed, this House will recess and reconvene at Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. 7:00 p.m. this evening. IN SESSION *** Mr. Jack Reimer (Acting Chairperson of Committees): Madam Deputy Speaker, the The House took recess at 6:24 p.m. Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

Monday, June 22, 1992

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Social Assistance Martindale; Gilleshammer 5175 Reading and Receiving Petitions Russell, Manitoba Brandon General Hospital Funding Gaudry; Derkach 5175 L. Evans 51 67 Pharmacare Dutch Elm Disease Funding L. Evans; Orchard 51 76 Friesen 5167 Speaker's Ruling Oral Questions Point of Order, June 12, 1992 Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Rocan 51 76 Doer; Downey 51 67 Labour Force Development Agreement ORDERS OF THE DAY Friesen; Vodrey;Carstairs 51 69 Debate on Second Readings Eating Disorders Bill 1 01 , Statute Law AmendmentAct, 1992 Wasylycia-Leis; Orchard 51 70 L. Evans 51 78 Gimli Motorsport Park Lamoureux 5178 Maloway; Ducharme 5172 Committee of Supply Garrison Diversion Project Edwards; Enns 5172 Aboriginal Justice Initiatives 51 78 Finance 5191 Policing Services Agreement Environment 5213 Wowchuk; Derkach; McCrae 5174 Fi tness and Sport 5214