Tuesday Volume 696 25 May 2021 No. 9

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 25 May 2021 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2021 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 223 25 MAY 2021 224

in producing electricity if we could get the schemes in House of Commons place. Will he look at that and perhaps explore the possibilities?

Tuesday 25 May 2021 Kwasi Kwarteng: My hon. Friend correctly observes that there are two major rivers in Tewkesbury, the Avon The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock and the Severn—very beautiful rivers, I might add. As far as hydroelectric power on rivers is concerned, we PRAYERS would have to look at the hydraulics and the power that can be generated, but we clearly appreciate that there is potential there, and we want to explore any ideas that [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] can bring those projects to fruition. Having said that, Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Orders, there is a limit to the capacity that such rivers can 4 June and 30 December 2020). generate, unfortunately. [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): Just last BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS week, the Secretary of State accepted that the inexcusable costs facing Scottish renewables projects trying to access COMMITTEE OF SELECTION the electricity grid had been an issue for a long time, Ordered, notwithstanding the 11 years that his party has been in That Sir Alan Campbell and Owen Thompson be discharged government. The Government continue to blame Ofgem from the Committee of Selection and and Richard while at the same time refusing to accept that they are Thomson be nominated.—(Michael Tomlinson.) the ones who set Ofgem’s strategy and policy statement. On that point, can the Secretary of State outline when SESSIONAL RETURNS the consultation detailed in his energy White Paper will Ordered, begin, when it will end and when we will see real That there be laid before this House Returns for Session change—or are UK Energy Ministers simply among 2019-21 of information and statistics relating to: the worst idlers in the world? (1) Business of the House; (2) Closure of Debate, Proposal of Question and Allocation of Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Gentleman makes a pointed Time (including Programme Motions); and unfair observation at the end of his remarks, which (3) Sittings of the House; I think is beneath his dignity. I know that he is referring (4) Private Bills and Private Business; to “Britannia Unchained”, a classic work published 10 years ago, but 10 years is a very long time and I do (5) Public Bills; not want to revisit those battles. I will say what I have (6) Delegated Legislation and Legislative Reform Orders; said to him before: this is an issue for Ofgem and we are (7) European Legislation, etc; discussing how to seek to make progress on that important (8) Grand Committees; subject. (9) Panel of Chairs; (10) Select Committees.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) Levelling-up Agenda

Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What steps Oral Answers to Questions his Department is taking to support the Government’s levelling-up agenda. [900517]

Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): What steps his Department BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL is taking to support the Government’slevelling-up agenda. STRATEGY [900519]

The Secretary of State was asked— The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Local Electricity Generation Strategy (Kwasi Kwarteng): We have made a commitment to level up all areas of the country. The plan for growth Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): What is a critical part of that, and we will go further with the steps he is taking to increase the opportunities for publication of a levelling-up White Paper, led ably by my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Neil generating electricity locally. [900505] O’Brien), later this year. The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kwasi Kwarteng): We are providing support Jason McCartney: I fully welcome the Prime Minister’s for the delivery of renewable energy projects within 10-point plan for a green industrial revolution as we rural communities in through the £10 million build back greener. Green eco-businesses in my Colne rural community energy fund programme. Valley constituency are ready to play their part, so can I please suggest to the Secretary of State that if the Mr Robertson: I thank the Minister for that response. Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Does he agree that the production of electricity locally or any other Government Department is looking to could help a great deal towards our net zero target? relocate to the north, towns such as Slaithwaite and Will he also look at the situation in my constituency of Marsden, with their mills and their direct rail links to Tewkesbury, where two rivers, the Avon and the Severn, the likes of and on the trans-Pennine join? The Severn would, I think, be particularly useful line, would be ideal locations? 225 Oral Answers 25 MAY 2021 Oral Answers 226

Kwasi Kwarteng: As my hon. Friend will appreciate, generate evidence about the use of fire and rehire. we are looking at many ideal locations at the moment. I officials have shared their findings with BEIS officials. It was pleased to make an announcement last week about isrightandproperthatwegivethisevidencefullconsideration, Darlington; that is a really good move for the Department. and we will communicate our next steps in due course. Weare always looking at ways to create more employment and recruit really great talent for our Department across Judith Cummins: Mr Speaker, I am sure you will join the country, and I am sure that his constituency will me in welcoming the return of the Bulls to also—perhaps—be among those considered for such their iconic home of Odsal Stadium in Bradford. expansion. A recent Survation poll found that 76% of those : My constituents are very proud of the asked said that they think fire and rehire should be north of England and the midlands, even though we are against the law. The Prime Minister has said that fire in East Anglia, but they want a firm commitment from and rehire is “unacceptable”. The time to act is now. the Government—it cannot be stressed enough—that With no mention of it in the Queen’s Speech, when will the levelling-up agenda also covers Ipswich. Of course, the Minister legislate to make this practice illegal? we have the £25 million from the town deal, which goes some way to assuaging these concerns. However, does Paul Scully: I congratulate the Bradford Bulls on my right hon. Friend agree that the skills improvement their return. plan pilot bid from Norfolk and Suffolk could be a We have always been clear that using the threats of fantastic example to prove to the people of Ipswich that fire and rehire as a tactic to put undue pressure on workers we are in fact at the heart of the levelling-up agenda? during negotiations is completely unacceptable, but we Will he engage in discussions with the Department for need to tread carefully when considering Government Education about the possibility of that pilot scheme, intervention in commercial contractual matters between which would also feed the new freeport east in Felixstowe, employers and employees. That is why we are now which already employs 6,000 of my constituents but carefully considering, with the evidence, our next steps. could employ many more?

Kwasi Kwarteng: My hon. Friend is quite right. He Grahame Morris: May I first congratulate members was good enough to mention the fact that Ipswich has of my union, Unite, at Go North West buses in Manchester indeed been selected for a £25 million town deal, and he who, after an incredible 85 days of continuous strike suggested that that was as a matter of course, but I action, have now won a landmark victory against appalling think it is due to his keen advocacy and his eloquent fire and rehire abuses? My question to the Minister is and persuasive powers that the Government can provide straightforward: does he condemn rogue bosses such as help in that way. Clearly, skills are at the core of any Go North West or coffee producers Jacobs Douwe levelling-up agenda, and I know that there are great Egberts, which, despite record profits during lockdown, ideas in Ipswich and great things being promoted in has provoked strike action by firing and rehiring more East Anglia. I look forward to engaging with him than 300 loyal staff on worse pay and conditions? Will on that. the Minister wake up, smell the coffee and agree that this disgraceful behaviour leaves a bitter taste in the Fire and Rehire: ACAS Report mouth?

Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab): When his Paul Scully: I see what the hon. Gentleman has done Department plans to publish the ACAS report on fire there. His coffee-based puns belie the fact that this is an and rehire and the Government’s response to that report. incredibly serious situation. As I was saying, if those [900507] companies or any others are using such a practice for bully-boy tactics, that is completely unacceptable. We Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): When his need to look at the evidence before we intervene on the Department plans to publish the ACAS report on fire flexibility of the workforce, but clearly we do not want and rehire and the Government’s response to that report. bully-boy tactics to be used for negotiations. [900513] James Murray: Thousands of workers at British Airways James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op): When and Heathrow, including many of my constituents, have his Department plans to publish the ACAS report on been at the sharp end of fire and rehire tactics during fire and rehire and the Government’s response to that the covid outbreak. Across the country, one in 10 report. [900515] workers have been subject to such tactics since last Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab): When his March—that is almost 3 million people who have been Department plans to publish the ACAS report on fire forced to accept lower wages and longer hours or be and rehire and the Government’s response to that report. sacked. How many more millions of workers will the Minister allow to be fired and rehired before the [900528] Government decide to outlaw the practice? Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): What plans he has to bring forward legislative proposals to outlaw fire Paul Scully: There is a distinct difference if the practice and rehire practices. [900529] is used as a negotiation tactic: as I have said, if it is being used as a bully-boy tactic, that is completely The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, unacceptable. However, there is an element of flexibility EnergyandIndustrialStrategy(PaulScully):TheDepartment in our labour market, which we need to base on evidence. engaged with ACAS to hold discussions in order to That is what the ACAS report is there to do. We are 227 Oral Answers 25 MAY 2021 Oral Answers 228 considering the evidence, and I am looking forward to Hydrogen Economy coming back to this place to outline our actions in due course. Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): What steps he is taking to support the UK’s hydrogen economy. [900508] Mohammad Yasin [V]: Fire and rehire is illegal in countries such as Germany and Spain. In 2019, the The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Government promised an employment Bill to make Strategy (Kwasi Kwarteng): The second point of the Britain the best place in the world to work, which could 10-point plan was all about hydrogen. The forthcoming have outlawed the practice, but the Bill has been ditched. hydrogen strategy will set out clearly what we hope to Given that the Government have looked the other way see and are committed to seeing for the hydrogen economy as fire and rehire has become endemic, can the Minister in 2030. seriously claim to be committed to making Britain the best place in the world to work? Ian Paisley [V]: I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. Will he go a little further and explain how, and Paul Scully: There is a huge difference between our commit that the strategy will actually deliver specific employment law and that of Germany and Spain, in so jobs in , as well as in the rest of the much as theirs is very much more rigid—it lacks flexibility ? Will he continue to agree to meet me and that is reflected in the job figures and the job and other parliamentary colleagues to ensure that Northern growth we have had in this country. The Government Ireland gets a fair share of the hydrogen strategy as it is remain committed to bringing forward the employment rolled out? As he knows, this is so important to the Bill, where parliamentary time allows. We want to protect future economy of Northern Ireland. and enhance workers’ rights as we build back better from the pandemic. Kwasi Kwarteng: I will certainly continue to agree to meet the hon. Gentleman at any time. There are very Stephen Kinnock [V]: Fire and rehire has been used important hydrogen projects in Northern Ireland. I against supermarket staff who worked through lockdown speak to Mr and others, particularly in relation to keep our country running, and the practice has now to Wrightbus,which I understand is in the hon. Gentleman’s spread into schools, with teachers being threatened with constituency. There is a huge opportunity, and I would the sack unless they agree to worse terms and conditions. be happy to meet him and others to discuss the prospects Does the Minister agree that it is completely unacceptable at any time. that our key workers, who have sacrificed the most in Covid-19: Business Support our national effort against covid, are the very people now being threatened by these bully-boy fire and rehire Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): What recent tactics? discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on increasing support to businesses affected Paul Scully: I have said repeatedly that bully-boy by the covid-19 outbreak. [900509] tactics are absolutely unacceptable, but if it is a matter of a choice over protecting jobs in the first place, that is (Watford) (Con): What steps his the flexibility that we need to check, based on the Department is taking to support businesses through the evidence, and ACAS has gone a long way to providing covid-19 pandemic. [900512] that evidence. Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Andy McDonald () (Lab): Why is it (SNP): What discussions he has had with the Chancellor that fire and rehire has spread like wildfire across our of the Exchequer on increasing support to businesses country? Trade unions are shackled to prevent them affected by the covid-19 outbreak. [900524] from defending their members; employers have free rein to terminate workers’ contracts; and protections for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, workers are woefully weak. Opposition Members know Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway): My how to outlaw fire and rehire, and I am more than right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer happy to meet the Minister and show him how, but is presented to Parliament the Budget, which sets out an not the truth that this Government are content with additional £65 billion to support people and businesses. millions of workers being bullied into accepting low We have hit every road map commitment at every stage wages and worse terms and conditions or facing the so far, and no one can doubt that we are leading in our sack, because it is in the Tories’ DNA to side with bad support to businesses. We have even taken the total employers rather than to protect working people? cumulative cost of support to £352 billion.

Paul Scully: It is in the Tories’ DNA to create jobs Owen Thompson: ExcludedUK is set to reach its first and opportunities. After the previous recession, we birthday soon, which must be a bittersweet moment for were creating more jobs than the whole of Europe put many of my constituents. It is frankly a disgrace that together, and we will continue to do so as we build back the campaign has had to continue in the face of the better after this pandemic. ACAS has provided the Government rejecting the calls to support the 3 million evidence for us to consider; we are doing that in due who have been ignored and denied covid support. Does course, and I look forward to coming back to this place. the Minister not agree that the self-employed and others The TUC reported back in January on a survey of its denied support now deserve to have funds backdated so members, but it has not shared its methodology; we that they can rescue their livelihoods and contribute cannot use that as substantial evidence unless the TUC to the economic recovery, rather than simply adding to shares that with us. online dole queues? 229 Oral Answers 25 MAY 2021 Oral Answers 230

Amanda Solloway: Throughout the covid-19 pandemic issue of business debt, which means that businesses will the Government have supported people and businesses have to repay whether or not they are making a profit. across the whole of the United Kingdom. The Budget Does the Minister agree that, if we want to give businesses extends the UK job retention and self-employment the time to build up their trade and resilience, and also income support schemes and the VAT cut to support protect jobs and not let debt stifle the recovery, we need the tourism, leisure and hospitality sectors. To date, a genuinely flexible repayment scheme such as the one businesses in Midlothian have benefited from more Labour has called for. than 1,500 loans and £56 million, with more than 16,000 jobs supported through furlough. Amanda Solloway: Wecare passionately about businesses in this Government, and our support package includes Dean Russell [V]: I recently introduced a ten-minute the job retention scheme, generous grants and cuts to rule Bill on making mental health, or psychological, business rates. Pay as you grow measures will allow first aid a legislative requirement for workplace first aid, 1.5 million bounce back loan borrowers to extend payment going beyond its recent positive inclusion in Health and terms and to benefit from a further repayment holiday. Safety Executive guidelines. Will my hon. Friend please Our plans to support economic recovery and pursue meet me to explore my proposals, which make a very growth through significant investment in infrastructure small change to make a very big difference? skills and innovation will help us to build back better and level up across the United Kingdom. Amanda Solloway: I know how passionate my hon. Friend is about mental health and this campaign. I Gig Economy: Employment Rights myself am dedicated to supporting campaigning and advocating for mental health, and I care passionately Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): What steps about mental health in the workplace. Indeed, we are he has taken to improve employment rights and protections working on a people and culture strategy for research for gig economy workers. [900510] and development. We will ensure that my hon. Friend has the opportunity to discuss the matter further with The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, relevant Ministers. Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): The Government are committed to protecting and enhancing Steven Bonnar: The Chancellor has announced that workers’ rights. The Uber Supreme Court judgment the job retention scheme must end in September, yet was clear that those who qualify as workers under thousands of workers in Coatbridge, Chryston and employment law are entitled to rights such as the national Bellshill remain on furlough, with their industries required minimum wage, and all gig economy businesses should still to close. While the vaccine roll-out gives us real ensure that they are fulfilling their legal responsibilities. optimism, the world remains firmly in the grip of this pandemic. It is unacceptable to leave workers and businesses Kate Osamor [V]: Does the Secretary of State recognise with only four months before they face this cliff edge that, by ditching the employment Bill and, with it, the and are cut off from this vital lifeline. Other European opportunity to strengthen the rights of gig economy nations, such as Germany, have already committed to workers, he has abandoned millions of precarious and continue with their equivalent scheme until 2022. With low-paid workers to fight through the courts for fair that in mind, will the Minister join me in imploring the pay and job security? Chancellor to do the right thing for workers and businesses in my constituency and across the UK by extending the Paul Scully: The Secretary of State and I believe that retention scheme for as long as it is required? workers’ rights should be enhanced and protected, so we are absolutely committed to bringing forward an Amanda Solloway: The Government have provided employment Bill that will help us to build back better unprecedented support to business sectors throughout and to protect vulnerable workers, delivering on our the pandemic, including the hospitality and retail sectors. ambition to make the UK the best place in the world in In addition to the job retention scheme and cuts to which to work and grow a business. While we are business rates and VAT, we have provided one-off restart waiting for the employment Bill to come forward in grants of up to £18,000, which are available to businesses parliamentary time, we will continue in that way. in the non-essential retail, hospitality, leisure and personal sectors to support them to reopen as restrictions are Clean Energy relaxed. To date, businesses in Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill have benefited from more than 1,500 loans Sir (New Forest West) (Con): What and £59 million, with 70,800 jobs supported through steps he is taking to accelerate the production of clean furlough. energy. [900511]

Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): This week marks English Tourism Week, but the UK’s What steps his Department is taking to increase renewable tourist destinations have been hit hard, with a much energy production. [900545] higher than average increase in people who are now out of work, including in places such as Scarborough and The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth Whitby. Many tourism businesses, such as hotels and (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): In December, the Government cafés, have taken on debt to stay afloat, and one in five aim to deliver their biggest auction for renewables hospitality businesses now says that it is at moderate yet through the contracts for difference scheme. Our risk of insolvency. Yet the Government’s pay as you £240 million net zero hydrogen fund and forthcoming grow scheme does nothing to solve the underlying long-term hydrogen business model will enable us to deliver our 231 Oral Answers 25 MAY 2021 Oral Answers 232

5 GW low-carbon hydrogen production ambition to use The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth across the economy. We have also announced the clean (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): Renewable electricity will be key heat grant and the green heat network fund, and will for the decarbonisation required for carbon budget 6. launch the green gas support scheme later this year. Therefore, we have set an ambitious target to deliver 40 GW of offshore wind by 2030 and announced our Sir Desmond Swayne: How good are we actually aim to up to double the capacity of this year’s contracts going to be at the production of green hydrogen? for difference auction, as well as extending eligibility to a wider range of technologies. Anne-Marie Trevelyan: There is a short answer, or I could give my right hon. Friend a longer one. Brilliant. : The Minister will be aware of my [Laughter.] long-standing interest in environmental, social and governance, as I chair the all-party parliamentary group on the matter. How will her Department ensure that the Andrew Griffith: Does my hon. Friend agree that one Government’s sixth carbon budget is delivered with of the many natural advantages we are blessed with is ESG at its heart, and what are the plans for engagement the tide around the shores of the United Kingdom, and with Government Departments and corporations to will she bring forward at the earliest opportunity the ensure that all targets set out in the carbon budget are Government’s proposals to unleash tidal power? viewed through an ESG lens?

Anne-Marie Trevelyan: Let me first pay tribute to my Anne-Marie Trevelyan: My hon. Friend’s passion for, hon. Friend’s work as a net zero business champion for and commitment to, this subject since he arrived in the COP26; he is doing an extraordinary amount of work, House have been unstinting. I have been more than and has been tireless in his efforts to support the country’s impressed by his determination to ensure that we do business community to showcase its extraordinary not, at any turn, miss the opportunity to raise it; he has leadership in tackling climate change and heading to been particularly determined to ensure that we look at net zero. the role of critical materials in renewables. They will Tidal generation does indeed have a potentially important continue to be an important part of how we are able to role in the long-term decarbonisation of the UK. Projects develop our renewables capacity. I hope that he is will need to demonstrate value for money to compete reassured that we continue to work across Departments with other renewables over the long term. The Secretary to maximise those outcomes. of State and I are very keen to hear from those who want to progress such projects. Steel Industry

Dr Alan Whitehead (, Test) (Lab): In Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What steps he is terms of increasing the production of renewable energy, taking to support the steel industry. [900516] does the Minister feel rather embarrassed about the deep neglect that there has been of the development of (Newport East) (Lab): What steps he deep geothermal energy in the UK over recent years? Is is taking to support the UK steel sector. [900521] she aware of a report published on 19 May suggesting a new future for deep geothermal energy, and particularly The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial a mechanism for supporting deep geothermal through a Strategy (Kwasi Kwarteng): The Government are committed successor to the renewable heat incentive? Does she to a UK steel industry. I mentioned this repeatedly in intend to respond positively to that report and its my session with the Business, Energy and Industrial proposals, and will she acknowledge that deep geothermal Strategy Committee this morning. is indeed one of the cleanest and most efficient renewable energy sources that we can have in the UK? Nick Smith: Sanjeev Gupta promised that none of our steel plants would close on his watch, but after the Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I have not had a chance to Serious Fraud Office descended on his empire, the look at the report, but I absolutely commit to doing so. workforce became afraid for their future. The Liberty The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Steel plant in puts food on the table and pays Strategy has been doing a lot of work with local the mortgages of my constituents, and across the country communities where there are geothermal projects, and 5,000 families rely on the company. We now need the we will continue to look at them and see how we can Government to ensure that these plants remain open, help to support them. It will be, as ever, one of those and, crucially, to provide the finance to bridge any ongoing areas of policy; in the long term, we want to transition period should a new buyer or stake purchase use all the renewable resources available to us as a be necessary—and, of course, to work with the trade country to ensure that we maximise their use, while, as I unions to test the commitment of any new buyers. If said earlier, ensuring that they also provide value for promises are broken, will the Secretary of State step in money for the taxpayer. with the finance to support our steel communities? Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Gentleman will remember Renewable Energy: Carbon Budget that Mr Gupta asked me and the Department for £170 million. Many Labour Members—dare I say it?—were Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): What hollering and screaming and saying we should nationalise. assessment he has made of the extent of the renewable In fact, I would say that my actions and those of energy development required by 2030 to help deliver the officials have been vindicated. There were serious concerns Government’s sixth carbon budget. [900514] about corporate governance with this company, and 233 Oral Answers 25 MAY 2021 Oral Answers 234

Labour Members would do well to understand how to all new cars and vans must be zero emissions at the manage public finances with care. Having said all that, I tailpipe. The plug-in van grant will support businesses am monitoring the situation closely and I remain to reach net zero by reducing the purchase price of new strategically committed to the steel industry and this zero emission vans up to £3,000 for small vans and up sector. to £6,000 for large vans. The plug-in truck grant also provides up to £25,000 of funding for the largest HGVs. Jessica Morden: On behalf of workers at Liberty Steel in Newport, I agree with my hon. Friend the Mr Sheerman [V]: I thank the Minister, and I have Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith): the Government a lot of time for her, but she must realise that these must do all they can to protect these strategic businesses heavy goods vehicles—these trucks—are poisoning our that are very important to our communities. Because of atmosphere and poisoning children, pregnant women that, and because of global overcapacity in steel, it is and elderly people. All of us are being poisoned by also critical and very urgent that Ministers work with these emissions. Can we not move much more quickly Cabinet colleagues to prevent the Trade Remedies to encourage things? There are some really good British Investigations Directorate from slashing our steel safeguards manufacturers such as Electra Commercial Vehicles in in half, so please will the Government act on that? the north of England, which is doing wonderful work, guided by Sid Sadique, one of our new entrepreneurs. Kwasi Kwarteng: With regard to TRID, the hon. There is a capacity to switch to electric vehicles to Lady will know that the consultation on that closes deliver all the stuff that we get in this country, and we tomorrow. I would urge all interested parties to feed could do it much faster. Can I beg her to move faster for into that consultation so that we can reach a good the environment, for children, for the air that we breathe, decision. She knows that I am on record as having and for our commercial industries? committed to a strategic presence of steel in the UK . I think that is vital and as Secretary of State I will always Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I thank the hon. Gentleman promote it within Government. for his kind words. We are working to ensure that the transport decarbonisation plan is as ambitious as possible, Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): and we plan to publish in the very near future. It will set The crisis at Liberty Steel is yet further evidence of the out how we incentivise operators and industry to transition need to break the cycle of crisis management that has to zero emission HGVs and manage emissions from the defined the approach of successive Governments to this existing fleet. We are also investing £20 million this year critical sector. The Secretary of State knows full well in planning for zero emission road freight trials, which that there is a global race under way to green the steel will support UK industry to develop cost-effective, zero industry and that our country is currently at the back of emission HGVs and their refuelling infrastructure in the pack, with no concrete plans for trialling hydrogen-based the UK. primary production and only vague plans for a single carbon capture-based project. With its long-term survival Net Zero Emissions Target at stake, can he explain why the Government believe that the UK steel industry can afford to wait a further two years for the limited clean steel fund to even begin Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): What steps distributing investment? his Department is taking to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. [900520] Kwasi Kwarteng: I completely reject the basis of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks. The idea that we are at the (Sevenoaks) (Con): What steps his back of the pack in decarbonisation is complete nonsense. Department is taking to achieve net zero emissions by We are the first country in the G7 to have come up with 2050. [900535] an industrial decarbonisation strategy.He and his Labour colleagues were saying, “Secretary of State, why don’t Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): What you nationalise Liberty? Why don’t you give Mr Gupta steps his Department is taking to achieve net zero £170 million?”, and we made absolutely the right call. emissions by 2050. [900539] We showed judgment and restraint. Going forward, he will appreciate that I was the Secretary of State who resuscitated the Steel Council. We have had constructive The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth conversations across unions and employers to work out (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): The Government have laid a decarbonised future for the industry. legislation for the UK’s sixth carbon budget, proposing a target that would reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 78% by 2035 compared with 1990 levels, marking Environmentally Sustainable Transportation another ambitious and decisive step towards net zero by 2050. Our 10-point plan will bring together £12 billion Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): What of Government investment, unlocking three times as new plans he has to incentivise businesses to become much private sector investment by 2030 and supporting more environmentally sustainable in the transportation up to 250,000 green jobs. of their products. [900518] Aaron Bell [V]: I thank the Energy Minister for her The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth answer. I know she will have been as disappointed as I (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): The Government are striving was that we were not able to visit the Ibstock Brick to decarbonise transport by phasing out the sale of new factory in Chesterton yesterday, and I look forward to petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2030, and from 2035 welcoming her up to Newcastle-under-Lyme soon. In 235 Oral Answers 25 MAY 2021 Oral Answers 236 the meantime, will she say what the Government are High Street Businesses doing to support our vital manufacturers, such as Ibstock Brick, to decarbonise and at the same time support Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): What jobs? steps he is taking to support high street businesses. [900522] Anne-Marie Trevelyan: Yes, I was very sad not to get there. Sadly a cow on the line caused a level of disruption The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, to LNER services yesterday, which delayed my always Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway): Our relatively long journey from the north further south. comprehensive economic response to business is worth However, I hope to be able to visit before too long. In £385 billion, including grants, the furlough scheme, tax March, the Government published the UK’s first ever deferrals and business rates relief. We are providing a net zero strategy for industry. It is the first strategy £56 million welcome back fund, helping councils to published by a major economy that sets out how industry prepare for the safe reopening of our high streets and can decarbonise while remaining competitive and without seaside resorts. pushing emissions abroad. Our £350 million industrial energy transformation fund will support businesses with Cat Smith: High street businesses on Lord Street in high energy use to cut their bills and reduce carbon Fleetwood tell me that one of their biggest concerns is emissions. empty shop units that have fallen into disrepair. They are dangerous for people who are out shopping and Laura Trott [V]: Consumer awareness of the make the high street very unattractive. What support environmental impact of the actions they take, the can the Government give councils such as Wyre Council things they buy and the food they eat will be key to to ensure that these shops are made safe and, ideally, helping us achieve net zero. Can the Minister set out tenanted? what steps the Department is taking to help consumers make more informed environmental choices? Amanda Solloway: The Government are committed to unleashing enterprise and growth across all parts of Anne-Marie Trevelyan: Last November, we unveiled the United Kingdom, and we will go even further with the brand Together for Our Planet to raise awareness of the publication of our levelling-up White Paper this climate issues and support the public in making those autumn. The hon. Member will welcome the news that important green choices. In parallel, we have funded Lancaster and Fleetwood have been awarded funding several digital tools that can help people reduce their under the high streets heritage action zones cultural carbon footprint, including the Simple Energy Advice programme. Our £4.8 billion levelling-up fund will invest service on how to reduce energy use in the home and the in infrastructure that improves everyday life across the Go Ultra Low website, which provides information on United Kingdom. We have protected 14 million jobs electric cars and vans. Our upcoming net zero strategy through the comprehensive package we have put in will set out our approach to supporting the general place. Our plan for jobs is creating, supporting and public to make green choices, which will be a critically protecting jobs, and our £2 billion kickstart scheme has important part of our journey. helped 16,500 young people to start paid jobs. Dehenna Davison [V]: [Inaudible.] Energy Transition Projects:

Mr Speaker: You are on mute. Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP): What new support he plans to provide to energy Dehenna Davison: Hopefully you can hear me now. transition projects in Scotland. [900523]

Mr Speaker: Get on with the question. The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): This Government are committed Dehenna Davison: A key part of achieving net zero to supporting the transition to net zero for all the will be exploring alternative energy sources. One of United Kingdom. Our landmark North sea transition those that was mentioned by the hon. Member for deal will support Scotland’s offshore oil and gas workers, Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) was deep geothermal. businesses and the supply chain to exploit technologies I am working with stakeholders across Bishop Auckland such as low-carbon hydrogen production and carbon to explore making Bishop Auckland a centre of excellence capture usage and storage. In March, we announced for geothermal energy. Will my right hon. Friend visit £9 million to help Scotland’s world-famous whisky me in Bishop Auckland to discuss that in much more distilleries get into the spirit of going green, cutting detail? emissions and supporting green jobs.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I hope to be able to reach Gavin Newlands: I am sure that if we could capture Bishop Auckland with speed, as it is just round the energy and store it, Scotland’s entire energy needs would corner, and I am always happy to meet my hon. Friend have been met on Saturday by clean blue energy from St to discuss new energy projects. Compared with many Johnstone fans celebrating their historic cup double. countries, high geothermal temperatures are found at a Now that I have shoehorned that in, here is my question. much deeper depth in the UK, but we recognise, as I Despite meeting after meeting in which Minister after said earlier, that geothermal could indeed form part of Minister, including the current Secretary of State, our solution to decarbonise our heating. I welcome the have said that HELMS—Home Energy and Lifestyle opportunity to discuss energy opportunities in this area Management Systems—customers under the green deal and look forward to meeting her and her constituents. have been, at best, mis-sold products and that it would 237 Oral Answers 25 MAY 2021 Oral Answers 238 be fixed, hundreds of my constituents and others right That will have the effect of making the UK more attractive across Scotland and the UK remain swindled by Robert in terms of inward investment, cementing our place as a Skillen and his company. I am happy to have another global science superpower and potentially increasing meeting, but I would be even happier with swift and investment in areas such as Thames valley, which already appropriate action. boasts a number of world-class manufacturing companies.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan: I am happy to meet the hon. Entrepreneurship Gentleman and his constituents and to work with officials to make progress. Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con): What steps he is taking to support entrepreneurship. [900527] Workplace Health and Safety Law The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, (Gower) (Lab): What recent steps Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): Our start-up he has taken with the Secretary of State for Work and loans programme has a phenomenal track record of Pensions to improve the enforcement of workplace backing budding entrepreneurs. We have supported more health and safety laws. [900525] than 83,000 people across the UK with £733.5 million in loans. The ’snew “UK Unlocked” The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial campaign supports all entrepreneurs to access the right Strategy (Kwasi Kwarteng): Workplace health and safety finance to start and grow. is of critical importance, and I am in regular discussion with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Dr Evans [V]: I am really pleased to hear the Minister’s Work and Pensions on this and other issues. response, and I am grateful for the financial backing the Government give, but for someone sat in Bosworth with Tonia Antoniazzi: If the Government are so committed a great idea, one of the hardest things they struggle to to keeping workers safe throughout the pandemic, can come up with is where to start, so what are the Government the Secretary of State explain why they have not been doing to signpost people who want to start a business able to protect workers at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing who are asking exactly that question? Agency in Swansea by putting in measures to keep them safe from covid-19? Paul Scully: The answer to this question is to go to the Coventry and Warwickshire local enterprise partnership Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Member will appreciate growth hub. There are 38 growth hubs around the that public health and guidance for safer working in country that are one-stop shops to get access to that. is a devolved matter, so she should certainly bring We are helping SMEs navigate the business finance this up with her colleagues in the Welsh Government. landscape through those growth hub networks as well. Public Health Wales and the local authority, supported Our detailed business support webpages provide advice by the Health and Safety Executive, are working with for businesses of all sizes across the UK. the DVLA to ensure that there is appropriate protection. Topical Questions UK Manufacturing [900477] (Carshalton and Wallington) James (Bracknell) (Con): What steps his (Con): If he will make a statement on his departmental Department is taking to support UK manufacturing. responsibilities. [900526] The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Strategy (Kwasi Kwarteng): I would like to say that over Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway): Having the last few weeks I think we have gone through a trying worked in manufacturing for over 20 years, I know the time, but two things have really stood out as remarkable challenges, and I thank those in the manufacturing successes. The vaccine roll-out continues to go from sector for the brilliant work they have done to support strength to strength. Something like 60 million jabs the economy, including the way they came together for have been administered across this country, which I am the ventilator challenge, and for manufacturing all pleased to say is a world-beating target to have reached our vaccines. We are committed to supporting UK for a country of our size. On the back of that, we have manufacturers to build back better by taking advantage managed to hit the dates in the road map. On 12 April, of innovative technology and through measures such as we opened up in the way we said we would, and then we the super deduction capital allowance rate of 130%, to looked at the data and we were able to do so again on turbocharge business investment. 17 May. This has provided business with a huge degree of support and a measure of certainty ahead of a James Sunderland: Following , it is more important summer reopening. than ever that we incentivise the best possible commercial, manufacturing and industrial base in the UK. What is Elliot Colburn [V]: Carshalton and Wallington residents, BEIS doing to support the Department for International particularly those living in New Mill Quarter in Hackbridge, Trade and other Departments in bringing foreign businesses have been suffering at the hands of the Lib Dem-run to our shores? council-owned district energy network called SDEN— Sutton Decentralised Energy Network—leaving residents Amanda Solloway: BEIS is working with Departments without heating and hot water, some more than a dozen across Government to implement the plan for growth, times in just six months. I know BEIS is keen to ensure with its focus on infrastructure, innovation and skills. that residents such as these are not victims of shoddy 239 Oral Answers 25 MAY 2021 Oral Answers 240 operations, so following the closure of its consultation [900479] (Waveney) (Con): With an last year, what steps is my right hon. Friend taking to enormous amount of work going to take place in ensure that district energy networks are regulated? the next few years in building energy and transport infrastructure, there are significant opportunities to Kwasi Kwarteng: It is an excellent question. My hon. enhance skills and create jobs in steel fabrication. What Friend and I corresponded about this and spoke directly plans does my hon. Friend have for promoting fabrication about this when I was the Minister of State for Energy. I hubs, including one in Lowestoft where skills and expertise am very pleased to tell him that we are committed to has been developed over many years in the oil and gas regulating the heat networks market within this Parliament, industry, and exciting opportunities are coming forward and we will bring legislation forward at the earliest in the offshore wind and nuclear sectors? possible opportunity. It is clearly a really important thing to be doing, and he and his constituents can rest The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth assured that we are acting with due speed. (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): My hon. Friend makes an excellent point about seizing the broader benefits of the green economy, which are integral to our industrial Edward Miliband ( North) (Lab): I want to decarbonisation strategy.Wewill continue to work closely return to fire and rehire. Chris is a British Gas engineer with all those helping us to meet our net zero commitments, who lives in Spelthorne,the Secretary of State’sconstituency. from 40 gigawatts of offshore wind power by 2030, to Chris says: the Government’s commitments to deliver at least one “Working under fire and rehire has been horrific. It has caused more gigawatt nuclear power station, and substantial stress and anxiety not just for me, but my family. I can’t overstate commitments to the next generation of nuclear. For all the effect that it has on mental wellbeing. And the Government and the Business Secretary, who is supposed to represent me…in that, infrastructure investment and growing the skills parliament is doing absolutely nothing about it. I voted for Kwasi base will be vital across the country,including in Lowestoft. Kwarteng in 2019, but he’s failed us on this. A total let down.” We have set up the green jobs taskforce, which will report to the Government this summer and inform the Chris met the Business Secretary recently and asked next stages of our green skills plans going forward. him why he had not acted on fire and rehire. What did he tell him? Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): Stats released by the Office for National Statistics this morning show Kwasi Kwarteng: I remember the meeting well. I met that trade with the has fallen by 23% Chris, I think on the Avenue in Sunbury, and I said very in the first quarter. In the meantime, Scottish farmers clearly to him that we had an ACAS report that we are facing up to the reality of a trade deal with the hoped to publish in due course, and that once we Australians that threatens their very future. The Scottish published that we would set out further action, as the Parliament—it has no say; the Scottish Government— Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and ignored. What exactly will the UK Business Secretary Industrial Strategy, my hon. Friend the Member for do about that, and how much damage are his Government Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), very ably mentioned willing to cause? earlier. Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Gentleman is right to Edward Miliband: The problem is that the right hon. mention the ONS data, but he will appreciate that that Member is the Business Secretary. He is in charge. He is comparing quarter 1 this year with quarter 1 last year. promised an employment Bill two years ago. He has [Interruption.] Of course it does.January was exceptionally had the ACAS report for three months. He is not even bad—I fully admit that—because there was uncertainty telling us what is in the ACAS report. Maybe he can about how the new deal would operate. Subsequent satisfy Chris and millions of people around this country data from Q2 and from March was much better, The by saying from the Dispatch Box today that he agrees next quarter will have better results, and I am sure that with the principle that we should legislate to outlaw fire quarters after that will show proportionate improvement. and rehire, and he will bring forward an employment The Australian trade deal is a fundamental issue for us. Bill to do it. If he does not do that, people will suspect If we cannot make a trade deal with a country that has that the truth is not that he is not acting because he shared legislation, shared history, and shared traditions, cannot act, but that he is not acting because he does not we will not get anywhere with any of these trade deals. I want to act, because he thinks this kind of one-sided think this is an excellent opportunity for the UK. power for employers is necessary for our economy to succeed. [900480] Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): The Government are to be congratulated on their plans Kwasi Kwarteng: We all know the Marxist trope of to phase out diesel and petrol cars, but that raises the the employers versus the workers, and we have moved question of how we will charge electric cars, especially on from that—most of us. There are two issues there. for those who do not have driveways and have to park One was related to the employment Bill, which we are on the roads. What can we do to speed up the development committed to introducing to this House when we can, of the infrastructure? and that has always been our position. The second is that the whole point of having an ACAS independent Anne-Marie Trevelyan: Just yesterday, the energy report was to allow it to happen and then we would regulator, Ofgem, announced that it has approved a consider, after publication, the steps forward. I know £300 million investment to help triple the number of the right hon. Member is impatient, and I know he is ultrarapid electric car charging points across the country. probably wishing that there was a leadership change in That will give a green light for energy network companies his party, but we have to stay focused on delivery. to invest in more than 200 low-carbon projects across 241 Oral Answers 25 MAY 2021 Oral Answers 242 the country over the next two years, including the that the situation is improved. The business seems open; installation of 1,800 new ultrarapid car charge points I had a good conversation with the CEO, but I would for motorway service stations, and a further 1,750 charge like to hear more about the specific details of that plant. points in towns and cities. [900489] Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): Levelling up has never been more important than in the historic [900476] Layla Moran ( West and Abingdon) town of Lye in my constituency, an area that I am (LD): The green homes grant was scrapped at the end determined to help regenerate—made easier, I hope, by of March, due to severe mismanagement. Nevertheless, the funding put in place by this Government. One we urgently need a long-term strategy to help homeowners business in Stourbridge, I’m Lucky, was unlucky enough cut emissions and bills, if we are to tackle the climate to open just before the second lockdown, but with emergency properly. Now that local authorities have Government support, and helped by its own fantastic been awarded £300 million to deliver the green homes entrepreneurism, it has survived. It now has an online upgrades, what steps is the Secretary of State taking to shop front, and it has begun recruiting staff. Does my ensure that councils have all the support they need to hon. Friend agree that businesses such as I’m Lucky jump over bureaucratic hurdles and handle the unrealistic have a vital role to play in levelling up this country? deadlines created for them, so that we can significantly cut carbon emissions across UK homes? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): I thank Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Lady will appreciate that my hon. Friend, and I wish I’m Lucky all the best for the green homes grant initially had three elements: the the future. Over the past year, I have met a number of first dealt with owner-occupier houses, the second was businesses that have opened either at an unfortunate distributed by local authorities in the way she describes, time—just going into a lockdown—or possibly at a and the third was about public sector building fortunate time, as they steal a march and pivot into new decarbonisation. Two of those elements were successful. business areas. Growing those small and medium-sized The third was a short-term stimulus, which we have enterprises is really important to levelling up. We have closed and are looking to replace. already provided over 1,000 start-up loans worth £11.8 million this year. We are reducing employment [900486] Mrs (Meon Valley) (Con): costs by up to £4,000 through the employment allowance Many of my constituents work in the aviation sector and supporting skills through apprenticeships. The and at Southampton Airport. Advances in green technology strengthened prompt payment code ensures that those to cut emissions are vital for the future of air travel, and small businesses will get paid within 30 days. that may even include electric airplanes, powered by greener fuels. Will my right hon. Friend outline what [900494] Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con) [V]: Following encouragement the Government will provide in that the Budget, the Leader of the Opposition said that area? establishing “Treasury North” in Darlington was “not levelling up” but “giving up”. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the opposite is true, and that by Kwasi Kwarteng: We have done a number of things shifting decision making outside , including in that I am sure my hon. Friend will appreciate. I was very his own Department, we will truly level up our country? pleased, with my right hon. Friend the Transport Secretary, to appoint Emma Gilthorpe as chief executive officer of Kwasi Kwarteng: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; the Jet Zero Council, which brings together considerable it is a huge opportunity. I was delighted to see him in his industry expertise to drive sustainable aviation fuel. constituency only a couple of weeks ago. I was very Electric aeroplanes may be a thing of the future, but pleased to see the photograph that was taken of us clearly, we have the technology today to innovate and to looking like an advert for “Reservoir Dogs”. BEIS is use things such as hydrogen and sustainable fuels to absolutely committed to recruiting excellent staff in power a net zero aviation sector. Darlington, among other places around the UK.

[900483] Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: [900481] David Linden ( East) (SNP): The Secretary of State will be aware of pladis’s proposal to Following the announcement that the Government close the McVitie’s factory in Glasgow’s east end, putting plan to cut £120 million from official development at risk up to 500 jobs in a very fragile part of the local assistance research, what assessment has the Secretary economy. On Saturday, I, politicians from across parties of State made of the long-term impact that that will and, indeed, the GMB union came together to send a have on UK research and development? loud message to Salman Amin in Turkey that doing so Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Lady will know that that would put the local economy at risk. Will the Secretary was a very difficult decision. The Treasury and the of State join us in calling on pladis to rethink these Government made a decision to reduce ODA spending devastating plans, which would deliver a hammer blow from 0.7% of GDP to 0.5%. In the integrated review, we to the local economy in Glasgow and Scotland? said that we would get it back to 0.7% when we could. We are fully appreciative that it was a difficult decision, Kwasi Kwarteng: In my business engagement, I have and we want to get back to 0.7% as soon as the fiscal been lucky enough, I suppose, to meet the CEO of situation allows. pladis, the McVitie’s operator. I am not particularly aware of the specifics of what the hon. Gentleman has [900495] Sally-Ann Hart ( and Rye) (Con) just informed the House, but I would be very happy to [V]: The Government are already embarking on their speak to him and others to see what we can do to ensure unprecedented levelling-up agenda. What measures is 243 Oral Answers 25 MAY 2021 Oral Answers 244 my hon. Friend planning to facilitate levelling up by Paul Scully: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. small businesses, looking specifically at start-ups and It is really important that he stands up for the furniture growing SMEs, as well as at issues arising from late industry,as he does. The BSI has informed the Department payments, reducing employment costs, improving skills of its intention to retain its membership to continue to such as digital skills, and levelling up apprenticeships? influence the development of standards for the benefit Those are the specific questions asked by the of UK businesses. The Government support that position. Federation of Small Businesses in Hastings and Rye. [900487] Tony Lloyd () (Lab) [V]: May I ask the Paul Scully: The Federation of Small Businesses does Minister for an unequivocal statement, consistent with a great job across the country, including in Hastings the Government’s zero-carbon promises, that there will and Rye, and, as I said, it is very important that SMEs be no new coal mines and no new licences for fracking play a massive role in levelling up around the country. I in this country? have talked about the fact that strengthening the prompt payment code will ensure that small businesses get paid Kwasi Kwarteng: There are two issues there. On fracking, within 30 days. We will always do more to make sure I was very pleased, as Minister of State, to impose a that we can support small businesses, because we know moratorium on it. The language that we used at the that cash flow is king, and they will be a major part of time was that it was going to be evidence-focused and building back better. scientifically based. There is no new evidence to suggest that we should end the moratorium, so it stays—no [900484] Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) more fracking. On coal mines, I have said specifically (Lab): I have sat through a number of Select Committee that this is a judicial issue, in terms of the west Cumbrian reports that have exposed the deficiencies of not-so-smart coal mine, and that has to go through the planning meters and the extra costs involved, but I was shocked process. when we found for a recent report that smart meters will not work if we transfer from North sea gas to hydrogen. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) What do Ministers think the implications are for the (Con): As the Minister knows, I am passionate about future of smart meters of the possibility of using hydrogen inspiring the next generation of scientists and engineers. as a replacement fuel? Will she tell the House what plans her Department has to build on the previous good work in this field, such as Anne-Marie Trevelyan: We are continuing to work the Year of Engineering? with the regulators and to look at how smart meters are rolling out. We continue to encourage people to do so, if The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, they have not done so yet, but as the technology changes, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway): We we will obviously make sure that regulations afford have committed to investing £14.9 billion in R&D in those adaptations. 2021-22, meaning that Government R&D spending is now at its highest level for decades. Wehave our ambitious [900500] Mark Eastwood () (Con) [V]: UK road map. We have our innovation strategy that we will industry, particularly the furniture sector, has seen great be launching. We have our R&D place strategy, and we benefits in recent years from the British Standards are working to ensure that the benefits are felt nationwide. Institution’s leading role in the CEN—the European Committee for Standardisation. As membership of the Mr Speaker: I suspend the House to enable the CEN is not related to being a member of the EU, will necessary arrangements to be made for the next business. the Minister consider renewing our membership at year end so we continue to play a leading role in the development 12.33 pm of sensible standards? Sitting suspended. 245 25 MAY 2021 Covid-19 246

Covid-19 course take on board the views expressed by the House over the course of this debate. By acting quickly whenever the virus flares up and protecting people through our 12.35 pm vaccination programme, we can guard the incredible Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op) gains we have all made, and get ourselves on the road to (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for recovery. Health and Social Care if he will make a statement on covid-19. Jonathan Ashworth: Does the Minister appreciate that cities such as mine, Leicester, or towns and boroughs The Minister for Covid Vaccine Deployment (Nadhim such as Burnley, Bolton, Batley and Blackburn, have Zahawi): Our race between the vaccine and the virus borne the brunt of this crisis over these past 15 months? continues. As a nation, we have taken some huge strides Wehave often been in lockdown for longer than elsewhere. forward: there are now 908 people in hospital with At times, we have felt abandoned. We did not have coronavirus, a fall of 9% in the past week, and the adequate financial support: families did their best, but average number of daily deaths is now six, the lowest they struggled. Can the Minister understand how upsetting, number since the middle of March. On top of this how insulting, it is to have new restrictions imposed on positive news, our vaccination programme is accelerating us—local lockdowns by stealth, by the back door—without at pace. Over 72% of all adults have now been given the Secretary of State even having the courtesy to come their first dose, and 43% of all adults have the protection and tell us? of two doses. Why was the guidance plonked on a website on This weekend, we reached the milestone of 60 million Friday night and not communicated to everyone? Why vaccines administered across the United Kingdom, and were local directors of public health and local authority Public Health England also published new research leaders not consulted? Why were MPs not informed? showing that the effectiveness of vaccination against What does it now mean for our constituents? What does symptomatic disease from the variant first discovered in it mean for the family in Leicester who have booked a India is similar after two doses when compared to the few days next week by the coast for the school half-term? B117 variant dominant in our country. As with other Do they have to cancel that break? What does it mean variants, even higher levels of effectiveness are expected for university students in Leicester when they have against hospitalisation and death. This is encouraging finished their exams? Do they have to go home—or can data, and it reinforces once again the importance of our they go home? Can prospective students come and look vaccination programme in giving us a path out of this at the campuses? pandemic, as well as showing just how important it is What does the guidance mean for the parents in that everyone comes forward for both jabs when the call Bolton who are planning to take their children to see comes through. It is the progress made by the British grandparents on the other side of people in following the rules, and in taking up the this bank holiday Monday? Should they rearrange their protection offered through our vaccination programme, plans? What does it mean for the young couple in that means we were able to take step 3 in our road map Burnley, Blackburn or Batley, who have postponed last week. their wedding for over a year and invited friends and However, we take these steps with vigilance and family from across the country to come and celebrate caution, staying alert to new variants that can jeopardise their special day with them? Is the message to them that the advances we have made. We have come down really they have to delay their wedding again? hard on the variant first identified in India wherever we Can the Minister answer these questions today? Can have found it, surging in testing capacity and vaccines he take a message from me, as the Member of Parliament for those who are eligible. Over the past few days, we for Leicester South, back to the Secretary of State— have extended this rapid approach to even more areas: “Withdraw this guidance now and convene a meeting as well as Bolton and Blackburn with Darwen, which this afternoon of the relevant directors of public health the Prime Minister spoke about at his press conference to produce a plan involving isolation support and enhanced on the 14th of this month, we are taking rapid action in contact tracing”? As the hon. Gentleman knows from Bedford, , Burnley, Leicester, and his work as vaccines Minister, a single dose of the North Tyneside. As the Prime Minister set out two weeks vaccine is less effective against this particular variant. ago, we are urging people in these areas to take extra Will he produce a plan with local directors of public caution when meeting anyone outside their household health to roll out vaccinations to everybody and consider or support bubble, including meeting outside rather including bringing forward a second dose for a larger than inside where possible; keeping 2 metres apart from cohort of people? people they do not live with; and trying to avoid travelling A year ago, Ministers such as the hon. Gentleman in and out of the affected areas unless it is essential, for were defending Dominic Cummings on Twitter. Now, example for work—if a person cannot work from home—or Mr Cummings tweets about the lack of competent for education. people in charge. Many of our constituents, looking at As the Prime Minister said, we want the whole country this latest lockdown fiasco, will think that Mr Cummings to move out of these restrictions together. We are has a point. trusting people to be responsible and to act with caution and common sense, as they have done throughout this Nadhim Zahawi: I thank the right hon. Gentleman pandemic, and to make decisions about how best to for, I hope, his equally supportive comments when it protect themselves and their loved ones that are informed comes to supporting his constituents and others around by the risks. That is exactly what we should be doing. the country—in Bedford, Blackburn, Bolton, Burnley, We are always looking to see how we can communicate Kirklees and Leicester,his own patch, as well as Hounslow more effectively with local authorities, and we will of and north Tyneside. 247 Covid-19 25 MAY 2021 Covid-19 248

I spoke to the M10 metro Mayors this morning, and Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) [V]: the one thing I would urge is that we all work together Can the Minister explain if the new restrictions for and take the politics out of this. Our constituents areas such as Bolton are only advisory? Will hospitality deserve that. Essentially,as I said in my opening statement, companies affected still be eligible for financial support? we are asking people in the affected areas to be cautious Why was the Public Health England report on variants and careful. The right hon. Gentleman asked about snuck out at 11 pm on Saturday, during the Eurovision visiting family: people should meet outside rather than final and minus the promised data on school outbreaks? inside, where possible. Meeting indoors is still allowed, The B.1.617.2 or April 02 variant appears to be 50% in a group of six or as two households, but meeting more infectious and is affecting even younger children, outdoors is safer. People should meet 2 metres apart so can the Minister explain why on earth the Government from those they do not live with unless they have have ended the wearing of face coverings in schools? It formed a support bubble; that obviously includes friends is good that two doses of the vaccines still provide good and family they do not live with. So yes, people can visit protection from the variant, but testing shows that one family in half-term if they follow social distancing dose is only 33% effective. The gap between doses has guidelines. The guidelines include specific sections on been shortened from 12 to eight weeks, but with less meeting friends and family. Avoid travelling in and out than half of those between 50 and 65 years of age of the affected areas, as the Prime Minister said on having had their second dose, are there plans to close 14 May, unless it is essential—for work purposes, for the gap further? example. The whole principle is that we need to work together. Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s The right hon. Gentleman has a responsibility, as do I question and just remind her that Public Health England and the metro Mayors, to communicate to our residents makes those decisions for itself: it is not up to the and constituents that this is a time to be vigilant and Minister when it releases its data. careful. We are putting more surge testing and On pubs and hospitality,indoor areas of venues—cafés, turbocharging vaccinations in those areas, to make sure restaurants, bars and so on—can reopen. In any premises that we do the work with local directors of public serving alcohol, customers will still be required to order, health. I hope he will agree that we have had that plan in to be served and to eat and drink while seated. Venues place and seen it operate in Bolton and Blackburn; we areobviouslyprohibitedfromprovidingsmokingequipment will see it operate in his constituency and other parts of such as shisha pipes. It is just to make sure that we do the country as well. everything we can to limit the ability of the virus to infect others. Within that, reducing social contact is (South West Surrey) (Con): I congratulate incredibly important. Some businesses, such as nightclubs, the Minister on the outstanding roll-out of the vaccine must remain closed and follow the restrictions. It is very programme, which is a source of enormous pride to all much about making sure that we work together to of us, on all sides of the House. As we emerge from control the B.1.617.2 variant, exercising the common lockdown, we all want it to be a permanent change. For sense that the Prime Minister spoke about. The guidance most families, the biggest priority is to make sure that is there to do that. People on the whole have been schools remain open, even if we find that new variants following the guidance. arrive in the UK in the course of the autumn. We know On transmission and the effectiveness of the two that children do not tend to get bad symptoms, but they doses—the hon. Lady’s question on accelerating the can spread the virus, so is it time to look at vaccinating vaccination programme—the whole idea of us following the over-12s, as they are doing in the United States? Is it the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation time to look at whether we can use some of the US guidelines and advice on vaccination is to be able to Food and Drug Administration analysis to speed up vaccinate at scale. We have two big weeks ahead of us that decision-making process, so that by the time children and we will continue to focus on the second dose. When come back in the autumn, schools are protected and we people get that text message or the call to bring forward can be confident that they will be able to stay open? their second dose, they should please take that up, because it is incredibly important in controlling the Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful for my right hon. variant. Friend’s question. He is absolutely right to focus on the protection of children but also of families and their community. That clinical decision has not been taken in Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): It is tremendous the United Kingdom. He will be aware that, as well as news that the vaccines that are being so successfully the US regulator, the Canadian regulator has approved rolled out across our United Kingdom are highly effective the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine for 12 to 15-year-olds. against the variant first identified in India, but many Operationally, we will be ready, but ultimately the decision businesses continue to be delicately balanced on a cliff has to be a clinical one and our regulator will have to be edge of either a successful summer or bankruptcy. Does satisfied that the vaccines are extremely safe. When you my hon. Friend agree that we need a positive message of are vaccinating children, essentially, you are offering hope and certainty that all the evidence continues to some protection to them—children can be infected with back up the complete end of all restrictions and social covid and there is some evidence of long covid among distancing by 21 June? children—but on the whole it is to protect their families and to protect against transmission in communities. Nadhim Zahawi: It is good news from Public Health Vaccines have to be incredibly safe before we administer England on the B.1.617 variant that two doses of either them to children, but we have the infrastructure in place Pfizer or AstraZeneca-Oxford are as effective on infection to be able to do that, as and when the regulatory and and are very likely to be even more effective on serious clinical decision is made. illness and hospitalisation in real-world circumstances. 249 Covid-19 25 MAY 2021 Covid-19 250

[Nadhim Zahawi] programme and seeing how we can increase the uptake in flu vaccination, because the worst of all worlds Ultimately, we are effectively pursuing an evidence-led would be to do well against covid and then be hit by a strategy.The four weeks plus one—the five-week interval— heavy flu season in the autumn. are for us to be able to assess the data and share it with Parliament and the nation. At the moment, I am cautiously Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab) [V]: Last evening, optimistic that we are in a good place. We have to I learned that the Government had sneaked Bedford remain vigilant and we have to work together. As I said borough into local lockdown without even bothering to earlier, let us take the politics out of this and make sure warn the public health team. The Minister knows that that all our constituents are careful, and we will get for almost two weeks I have been calling for surge there together. vaccines in Bedford for all over-16s, yet until last Friday many of my constituents were forced to travel miles to John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): I am sure that the Minister access the Pfizer vaccine. The variant first identified in will agree that throughout the pandemic our community India has been imported here because of the Government’s pharmacies have performed magnificently on the frontline lax approach to border control. Why are the people of of the health service, but unfortunately there still seems Bedford paying for the Government’s gross negligence to be institutionalised bias against them in the Department and incompetence once again? of Health and Social Care, even now. Only a couple of pharmacies in have been authorised for the Nadhim Zahawi: The hon. Gentleman and I discussed covid vaccine. I urge the Minister to get a grip on his the turbocharging of the vaccination programme in bureaucrats and get vaccines rolling in our Sandwell Bedford, which I know he appreciates. The real difficulty pharmacies before the bank holiday. is that, if we now begin to vaccinate people who are 18, outside the JCVI’s advice, we are taking vaccine away Nadhim Zahawi: I know that the right hon. Gentleman from others who are eligible and need that protection. is a passionate advocate for community pharmacies; he So the strategy we are pursuing is to turbocharge. I need and I have discussed them in the past. I do not recognise to explain that a little. We are effectively putting in more his characterisation of the NHS team, who I absolutely resource, later opening and mobile vaccination centres know work every day with community pharmacies. I and we are expanding vaccination centres, so that those think that just over 500 community pharmacies and who are already eligible and, for whatever reason, have independent pharmacies are now part of the vaccine been unable to access the vaccine or have been waiting deployment. In phase 1, they have proved themselves to to see, can get the protection of the first dose. Of course be excellent at reaching out and giving confidence then we get the second dose into all those over the to their communities and at getting people vaccinated; age of 50, because we know that the two doses in those where primary care has decided not to carry on with areas, against the B.1.617.2 variant, make a huge difference. phase 2, they have also stepped up to fill the gaps so that we keep going. I will absolutely look at the right hon. Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): I congratulate the Minister Gentleman’s constituency to see whether we can do on the success of the vaccine roll-out and the rate at more. which the age limit is dropping. At the age of 28, I am regularly checking the NHS website to see when it is my Shaun Bailey ( West) (Con): The record turn. However, those who are a little older than me are vaccine roll-out has absolutely vindicated the decision trying to get their first jab at the Riverside Stadium in of my constituents in , Oldbury and Middlesbrough but struggling to do so, reportedly because to believe that this country can succeed in standing on only the AstraZeneca jab is being stocked at the vaccine its own two feet. Vaccination is going to form a really centre there. Will he use his office to try to find out what big part of our lives. What work is my hon. Friend the problem is and resolve it, so that people are not doing to ensure that, as we continue our vaccination having to travel unnecessarily to get their first jab? roll-out, we have the localised infrastructure to ensure that our great progress is not hindered? Nadhim Zahawi: I will absolutely look at what the issue is. The good news we have had recently from our Nadhim Zahawi: I absolutely agree with my hon. regulator, the Medicines and Healthcare products Friend. If the virus were designed to test liberal democracies, Regulatory Agency, is that the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine because the only way we could combat it was to withdraw can now be stored for up to a month—it used to be only people’s freedoms with the dreaded non-pharmaceutical five days from once it was thawed from minus 70° interventions, the vaccine has played to the real strengths C—which means it is much more versatile and less of the four nations that make up the peoples of these challenging than it used to be. So I will absolutely look isles. We have had that Dunkirk spirit of coming together at that and contact my hon. Friend. as 1,000 flotillas: the 80,000 volunteer vaccinators, the doctors, the nurses, the pharmacists and, of course, our Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): One area of armed forces and local government colleagues, who concern for which new restrictions have been published have stepped up not only to identify communities that but no advice has been communicated is the London we need to protect, but to find sites. Borough of Hounslow, which shares a boundary with We are already making plans for the booster jab to be Whitton, Hampton and St Margarets in my constituency. ready by September. I remind the House that the clinical Hundreds, if not thousands, of people go back and decision has not yet been made, but when it is—whether forth every day, for school, for work, to get food and that is in September, in October, in November or early other essential supplies and for medical appointments. in the new year—we will be ready to go. We are also So, first, could the Minister advise my constituents planning how it will dovetail with our flu vaccination whether they should be getting on buses and trains that 251 Covid-19 25 MAY 2021 Covid-19 252 cross the borough boundary and whether they should much of the research data that they know the things be going to supermarkets and accessing medical services that can add to the risk and that they should therefore over the borough boundary? Secondly, will he consider abstain from doing those things while we vaccinate at vaccinating, as a priority, people, such as teachers, key scale to get to the place where we can all hopefully get workers and airport staff, who have to go to work in our lives back. Hounslow but live outside the borough? Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): Some Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s of us will be viscerally opposed to the use of covid question and I discussed this with the Mayor of London passports in the domestic economy. When will the this morning. Of course Hounslow is on the list of Government set out their proposals in some detail? affected areas and we are turbocharging the vaccination programme, as well as doing the surge testing and the Nadhim Zahawi: Weare considering a range of evidence sequencing and isolation. But as I have outlined in around covid status certification and whether it may response to others, people need to exercise caution and have a role in opening up higher-risk settings, so it common sense, and travel outside of the area only if it is would be remiss of a Government Minister or a essential. That is important. The right thing to do is for Government not to look at technologies around the us to work together to make sure we deliver that message, world that would allow us to open up not 20% of as I did this morning with the Mayor of London. Wembley stadium but the whole of Wembley stadium Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): In The for the FA cup final. No final decisions have been made, Telegraph story this morning about what the rules for and we are of course committed to setting out our self-isolation might be post 21 June, a Government conclusions on the review ahead of step 4. source was quoted as saying, in response to the suggestion that they will not change: Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): Some “There is still a risk of getting the virus and spreading it on,” people have been making a lot of money from Government-approved quarantine hotels, but many of That is of course true—there is a risk—but of course my Slough constituents are continuing to suffer during once people have been vaccinated the risk is much lower their stays. Their long list of angry complaints includes and, importantly,the vaccines are very effective at stopping a lack of water, with people being told to drink from the serious disease, hospitalisation and death. So may I say bathroom tap; poor food standards often not meeting to the Minister that post 21 June it is important not dietary or religious requirements, with people having to only that legal restrictions and social distancing go, but fork out for takeaways; poor ventilation with no chance that all the remaining rules are adjusted to reflect the of opening a window; and I have not even started yet on much lower risk that exists once we have vaccinated the the shambolic state of mixing in hours-long airport population? Otherwise, we are going to have those rules queues so that even if somebody does not have coronavirus, in place forever. they soon will have. Why are the Government failing to Nadhim Zahawi: It is worth waiting for 14 June, when get a grip of the situation, despite repeated requests we will be saying more on this, but suffice it to say two from right hon. and hon. Members of this House? things: first, even if someone has had two doses of either vaccine —I have had this experience in my own family—they Nadhim Zahawi: I do not recognise the hon. Gentleman’s can still contract covid and should therefore be isolating description of the way the system is working. There were and quarantining; secondly, we are also looking at ways some distressing videos posted online of people in airports, in which contacts of people who may have contracted but we work with the airports and require them to ensure covid can be regularly tested instead of isolating. that social distancing protocols are followed. Indeed, at Heathrow, we recently looked at people from red list Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister countries arriving at a particular terminal. I will take for his responses so far and for the magnificent effort. I away his point about particular hotels, and if he lets me had my second vaccine yesterday, and just to show how have the exact details I can look at what is happening, national that was, the person who gave me the injection because it is wrong and distressing if people cannot was a doctor from Lincolnshire. I believe that this very have fresh drinking water. much shows that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland works better together, and that Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): In Suffolk and north-east this is a supreme example of that. Essex, 97% of the over-80s have now had two jabs, We understand that things will change depending on which I think puts it at the top of the league table. I the circumstances and that localised lockdowns may be predict that, as a 32-year-old, I am on the cusp of being the way to ensure that areas with low numbers are able offered my jab, but I will wait for my contact to confirm to allow people to live safely. Can the Minister outline that. Huge thanks should also go to BSC Multicultural what parameters will establish localised lockdowns and Services, which has worked incredibly hard with hard- tell us whether the same approach will be taken UK-wide to-reach groups to get the vaccine out, and I also want by the devolved regions? to give a special mention to community pharmacies, which the right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar) Nadhim Zahawi: I am very pleased to hear that my mentioned. It seems like a long time since the Aqua hon. Friend has had his second dose; when people get Pharmacy on Duke Street approached me, but it has that text message, they should please come forward and gone on to deliver 15,000 doses. I sometimes feel that have their second dose. We are looking to ensure that community pharmacies do not always get the attention the whole country comes out of this together, hence the they deserve. Can the Minister assure me that in the advice being very much about exercising caution and NHS White Paper community pharmacies will be at the self-responsibility. People actually get this; we see in heart of what we are doing to recover from this pandemic? 253 Covid-19 25 MAY 2021 Covid-19 254

Nadhim Zahawi: I can certainly give my hon. Friend and the Government’s response to it. Suffice to say that that reassurance. Community pharmacies are an incredibly all contracting is published in the appropriate way, and important part of our deployment infrastructure. civil servants follow the exact rules around contracting.

David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): Like everybody Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): else, I pay tribute to those who are delivering the Fifty-seven thousand people in North West Durham vaccine and those who have developed it. I am not quite have had their first jab and 34,000 the second, so we are at the age to have been offered my first dose yet, but I doing really well and progressing excellently. I have my am hoping that it will be soon. When I get that blue first jab this Saturday. I say to my hon. Friend the envelope through the door, I will go to get my jab. The Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) that he is 32, so he can Minister will be aware that there are a number of people also get his jab now. Anybody else in my constituency or who have a phobia of needles. Is he in a position to across the country can book now through the app. update the House on the development of a nasal vaccine? There are concerns, though, about the vaccine. Can the Minister ensure that all the possible issues and side Nadhim Zahawi: I am glad the hon. Member will get effects are constantly monitored and published so that his jab when the call comes. We are obviously working people can make informed positive choices to get the with a number of manufacturers, who are looking at vaccine, especially in the younger age groups, to ensure different delivery technologies for vaccines in the future. that everyone is protected as much as possible, especially It is still some way off, I am afraid. At the moment, the from the new variants? needle dominates the vaccination deployment technologies, but I know that a number of manufacturers are working on other ways of delivering vaccines, including through Nadhim Zahawi: I can certainly give my hon. Friend pills. that assurance. We have an independent regulator here in the MHRA and, of course, Public Health England, Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con): Seventy per and we have a yellow card system where adverse incidents cent of my constituents have now had one vaccine. I am are recorded—they can be reported directly by a GP, a sure the Minister will join me in congratulating and clinician or the person themselves. All that data is thanking all those people in Warrington who have published and people can access it on their MHRA website, played such an important part in this incredible vaccination or google it and see it. An incredible part of the success programme. As he will know, vaccines are one part of story of the vaccination programme is that sharing of the solution. Can he give us an update on drugs and data, which has led to the highest level of vaccine research into treatment for those who find themselves in acceptance among adults in the world. The figures hospital suffering from covid? suggest that about 90% of all adults say that they will take the vaccine, or are very likely to take the vaccine. Nadhim Zahawi: I join my hon. Friend in thanking the local team for going above and beyond, and, as I Janet Daby ( East) (Lab) [V]: What steps said earlier, it is all about that spirit of Dunkirk and the are the Government taking to ensure that the UK is a coming together of the nation to deliver the vaccination leader in the global response to tackling covid-19, especially programme. A couple of weeks ago, the Prime Minister given the fact that we are not safe until everyone is safe? announced the therapeutics taskforce, which is moving at pace to identify therapeutics and antivirals to help Nadhim Zahawi: When the Prime Minister set up the people who, for whatever reason, cannot be vaccinated vaccines taskforce he gave it two priorities: first, to discover and to give us a greater arsenal in our armoury against the vaccines that would work, in order to contract for this pandemic. them or to manufacture them in the UK; and secondly, to work out how to help the rest of the world, which is Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba) why we were the first country to put £548 million into [V]: I get my second vaccine tomorrow, so I would also COVAX and very much establish COVAX, which now like to thank all of the NHS staff and other staff who has more than 450 million doses, the bulk of which are have made this possible in such a quick turnaround. Oxford-AstraZeneca, which is our gift to the world. However, all of that cannot conceal the opacity of the Some 98% of the COVAX jabs that have been delivered UK Government’s position on accusations of cronyism and have protected people have come from Oxford- and corruption, but, thanks to the Good Law Project, AstraZeneca. Pfizer has also been doing the same thing: that is finally being challenged in the High Court this from day one its chief executive, Albert Bourla, spoke week. I have been attempting to get to the heart of the about vaccine equality, and Pfizer is offering vaccines at procurement of unlicensed lateral flow tests and been cost to low and middle-income countries. met with glib obfuscation from the Department. Can the Minister therefore tell me: when was the contract for these devices signed; was it known at the time that these Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab): It is simply tests were not licensed by the MHRA for asymptomatic unacceptable that my constituents in Luton South found testing; which Minister approved this contract; and if out about the changed advice on travel to Bedford the Government really have nothing to hide, why do through the back door, via the media last night. They they just not come clean? need thorough clarity and formal information to be provided through our local authorities. Nadhim Zahawi: I just remind the hon. Member that, On local authorities, what steps are the Government at this Dispatch Box, the Prime Minister announced a taking for the prioritisation of turbocharged vaccinations, full inquiry that will take place in the spring of 2022, not just for areas with the new variant but for areas with where we can learn all the lessons of the covid pandemic enduring transmission? 255 Covid-19 25 MAY 2021 Covid-19 256

Nadhim Zahawi: I think I have dealt with the first Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): The experience part of the hon. Lady’s question, in the sense that the over the last year has shown that local lockdowns are guidance and information was shared with the country not effective, because cases simply rocket in the areas on 14 May. We continue to endeavour to improve our immediately outside the local restrictions. With that in communications, in partnership with local government mind and to get ahead of the curve, this morning I have and by addressing local health systems. been in discussions with County Council On vaccine turbocharging, the hon. Lady will know and my local director of public health to establish a that we are looking at mobile vaccination sites, increasing pop-up vaccination site at Gamesley, where there has sites’ opening hours and putting in more resource so been a high number of new cases, so that we can deliver that we can vaccinate the people who are eligible to be surge vaccination. Will the Minister work with me, my vaccinated—it is important to make that distinction. local director of public health and the NHS to ensure We will continue to do all that in Bedford to make sure that we get the doses we need to get everyone in the that the people of Bedford are protected and we get the High Peak vaccinated as soon as possible? variant under control. Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The important thing is to get those who are eligible (Chipping Barnet) (Con): Over the vaccinated and for those who need their second dose to weekend I was contacted about two instances of people get that second dose within the eight-week period. That having difficulties getting the access that they wanted to is the way we control this variant. I will happily work their frail relatives in Barnet Hospital. It was particularly with him on any local initiative that he is working on. distressing because in both instances the patients had difficulties communicating with and understanding hospital Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: The staff. I appreciate that hospitals have a paramount duty evidence is clear: women who are pregnant who get to ensure proper infection control, but will the Minister covid are twice as likely to have a premature birth and encourage hospitals throughout the country to facilitate twice as likely to experience stillbirth. Other countries visits so that relatives can support the frail elderly while have recognised this and have ensured that pregnant they are in hospital? women of any age are a priority for vaccination, but in this country the conversation about the data has not Nadhim Zahawi: I will certainly take my right hon. even happened yet, despite months of asking. There Friend’s constituents’ details and look into that. We will be thousands of pregnant women in the areas urge all hospitals to make sure that when the frail where the variant is on the rise, and across the country, elderly need social contact, they are able to get it. terrified about what might happen if they get covid. What can we do to help them get hold of the vaccine, Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab) [V]: No one is safe regardless of age, so that we are protecting the youngest from covid-19 until we all are, but the UK continues to members of our community? stubbornly resist calls for a waiver of covid-19 vaccine patents. Given that people in many of the world’s poorest Nadhim Zahawi: The hon. Lady will know, because countries cannot expect to be vaccinated until 2023, she is on the weekly MPs’ call that I host, that the Joint and given the failure of the COVAX initiative to distribute Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation is looking vaccines at the volume and speed that is needed, will the at this data. In the meantime, because of data provided Government now follow the lead of the Biden by the United States of America, we have made the Administration and reverse their position on a patent Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines available to all waiver? pregnant women who are in the eligible cohort. That is happening as we speak. I know that Professor Anthony Nadhim Zahawi: That is a really important question. Harnden, who is the deputy chair of the JCVI, has Let me share with the hon. Member a little about the promised the hon. Lady that the JCVI is looking at the operational challenges around vaccine manufacture. We data; when it delivers the advice to us, the system will will of course look at any text that our US colleagues follow that advice. put forward on the intellectual property issue, but in reality if the exam question is to get more jabs in the Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): arms of those who live in low and middle-income The scale and pace with which we are delivering our countries, the bottleneck is not the IP but the transfer of vaccine programme is a marvellous achievement and a technology to manufacturers around the world. What testament to everybody involved. It is how we are able Oxford-AstraZeneca has done incredibly well is to transfer gradually and safely to come out of the restrictions. that technology to 20 sites that can manufacture at scale. Will my hon. Friend confirm that we will always be We have already delivered 450 million doses of the following the science and the data, so that activities can Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine. The hon. Gentleman might resume as safely and as soon as possible? I am particularly recall that Pfizer did the same thing; it actually paused thinking about indoor gatherings for groups such as its manufacturing in Europe and expanded it, to go community choirs, and other events that bring people from 1.2 billion doses a year for 2021 to almost 3 billion together. Such activities are so needed to combat the doses. If the exam question is to get more jabs in arms, isolation that has hit so many people during the lockdown. we need that technology transfer. It is not easy, as we Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend will know that the saw in Halix in Europe, which had great difficulty reason for restrictions on activities such as choirs and operationalising the manufacturing, as did Catalent in singing is the added transmission through aerosols or the US. That is the real effort that needs to go in—as droplets. The faster that we can move the vaccination well, of course, as helping other countries with deployment. programme, the sooner we can end those restrictions. It is only one part of the jigsaw to get the vaccine into Therefore, my absolute focus—and my commitment to warehouses in those countries; those countries have to him—is that we continue at pace. We have a big week be able to get it out and into people’s arms. this week and a big week next week. 257 Covid-19 25 MAY 2021 Covid-19 258

Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): I thank Nadhim Zahawi: The hon. Lady asked a similar question the Minister for his weekly updates, which I have found last week, and Professor Harnden of the JCVI said that really helpful, and for his work on vaccine hesitancy the problem with antibody testing is what it really tells across the black, Asian and minority ethnic community. us. I will happily ask the question again on her behalf of I had my vaccine on 14 May at St Thomas’ Hospital—the the JCVI. Suffice it to say that on 17 May we put out same hospital that cared really well for our Prime Minister. guidance to employers saying that those who are shielding The Prime Minister thanked those nurses, including and immunocompromised should be allowed to work Luis, who gave me my vaccine. But we saw that Jenny from home if they need to. resigned from the NHS last week, so will the Minister use his will and his power to speak to the Treasury to Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con): Will my hon. Friend get our hard-working nurses the pay they deserve? confirm that the Government’sposition on the coronavirus pandemic is that it is still a question of life and death, Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful for the hon. Member’s that communications are vital in this effort and that commitment in ensuring that we get the vaccine message compliance follows confidence, which in turn follows out to harder-to-reach communities and for her work competence? Will he confirm when these local lockdown with me on the weekly meetings. We have delivered an measures were agreed with the leadership at Bolton increase to nurses.Weawait the outcome of the deliberations Council and when the Prime Minister formally agreed of the panel that will look at nurses’ pay, and then the to this updated guidance being imposed? Treasury will make an announcement in the usual way Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend will recall that the Prime Minister addressed this issue on 14 May. Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend for his assistance in ensuring continuity of Jonathan Ashworth indicated dissent. supply to the Baths Hall in Scunthorpe and our other Nadhim Zahawi: Yes, he did address this issue in his vaccination hubs. Over 71% of our adult population in press conference. I can read the right hon. Member for North Lincolnshire have received their first vaccine and Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) the words from almost 50% have had their second vaccine. Will he join that press conference, because he says from a sedentary me in thanking the fantastic volunteers who I see outside position, “He did not.”The Prime Minister said, speaking in all weathers at the Baths Hall, welcoming patients to about Bolton: receive their vaccination? We quite simply could not have done it without them. “given the caution that I think we have to exercise with this new variant, the risk of extra transmissibility, I would urge people just to think twice about that. That’s what we’re saying. I think that we Nadhim Zahawi: I absolutely join my hon. Friend in want people in those areas to recognise that there is extra risk, an that, because I see it up and down the country all the extra disruption, a threat of disruption to progress caused by this time. I spoke earlier about the Dunkirk spirit, with new variant and just to exercise their discretion and judgment, in people coming up and saying, “I want to be counted. I a way I’m sure that they have been throughout this pandemic and want to be part of this.” We demonstrated it to the will continue to do so, I hope very much.” world a little bit in the 2012 Olympics. This is a whole Those were his words, and the guidance was in place. other scale of operation. Nevertheless, we have delivered Yvette Cooper (Normanton, and Castleford) on it and will continue to deliver on it, and I stand on (Lab): The Minister has done a good job on the vaccines, the shoulders of the real heroes and heroines of the but this statement is utterly chaotic and completely NHS family, our armed forces and local government. confused. What advice is he actually giving to people in the north-west or in West Yorkshire about going to the Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con): The vaccine works—it pub, about weddings and about travel—even about prevents serious illness and helps to prevent transmission— whether, if they are allowed to travel out of Bolton, but I read in the papers this morning that even if they are allowed to travel to Portugal, on the green list, someone has had two jabs, if they come into contact for holidays? Is not the reality that he is so uncomfortable with someone who is positive after 21 June, they will about giving any advice because he knows the reason he still have to isolate for 10 days. Could my hon. Friend is putting these people in Bolton, in West Yorkshire and confirm whether or not that is correct? in other places in this position is that the Government failed to put India on the red list earlier? Over 400 people Nadhim Zahawi: I answered a question on this issue from India came into the country with the Indian earlier. Obviously if someone contracts covid, they have variant, and putting India on the red list would have to isolate and quarantine, but in terms of their contacts, prevented it from spreading to thousands of other we are looking at regular testing to see whether there is people in the community. Will he apologise to people in an alternative. I am afraid that my hon. Friend will have the areas that are affected with the additional restrictions to wait a little longer before step four, and we will say he is advising because of the Government’s failure? more on this on 14 June. Nadhim Zahawi: I do not agree with the right hon. Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): It is a Lady, as she will not be surprised to hear. I have already pleasure to be back in the Chamber, but for many like talked about how visiting families are impacted and me who are immunocompromised, returning in person pubs and hospitality are affected, and about the exercise to the workplace is concerning, as we do not yet know of caution and being careful. She will recall that when how effective the vaccines are for us. Will the Minister India was put on the red list on 23 April, it was a full six consider allowing immunocompromised people to have days later that this particular variant was identified by access to antibody testing, thereby giving us some idea the experts—the virologists—as a variant of interest, of the vaccines’ efficacy and some knowledge of our and a full two weeks later before it became a variant of level of protection from the virus? concern. So her point, actually, is made unfairly. 259 Covid-19 25 MAY 2021 Covid-19 260

Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con): When does Weknow that local lockdowns do not work and inevitably my hon. Friend anticipate that the NHS smartphone lead to national ones. We know that it is likely that there app will be enabled to allow those in Wales to demonstrate will be other variants of this virus, which may well be their covid vaccination status? Further to that, does he with us for ever. Lockdowns break our economy and expect that other features of the app, such as the ability society,cause mental distress, delay vital cancer treatments, to book GP appointments, to order prescriptions and lead to further unemployment and exacerbate inequalities. to view notes will also be enabled in Wales? Can the Minister explain whythe Government’sresponse— instead of fixing test, trace and isolate, for example—is Nadhim Zahawi: We are working closely with the always more restrictions and endless cycles of lockdown? Welsh Government to enable the integration of Welsh citizens’ data with the NHS app, NHS.uk, for the Nadhim Zahawi: I hope the hon. Lady agrees that the purpose of covid status certification, including undertaking vaccination programme has given us a way out of the required scoping and impact assessment that will non-pharmaceutical interventions, which were the only enable us to set out a detailed timeline for the delivery thing we had at our disposal to try to slow down the of that integration. pandemic and the virus. As we transition from pandemic to endemic, we are planning for a booster shot in the Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con) [V]: The people of autumn to protect the most vulnerable or all people in Bosworth are a pragmatic bunch, as are the people of phase 1—that clinical decision has yet to be made. We Leicestershire. Leicestershire surrounds Leicester. What are already making plans for next year to deal with advice does the Minister give to those people who are in covid, as we deal with seasonal flu, through annual Leicestershire who send their kids to school in Leicester, vaccination programmes. By next year, this country will who work in Leicester, and who are thinking of having be able to manufacture 700 million doses of vaccine, bank holiday time with family in Leicester? not just for the UK but to help the rest of the world.

NadhimZahawi:Ithankmyhon.Friend—[Interruption.] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): My constituency I hear the right hon. Member for Leicester South saying is in Kirklees. I could ask about how the new travel “Good question.” He is absolutely right. We have to advice for Kirklees was communicated to my constituents, exercise caution and common sense, as I described but instead I want to clarify three things with the earlier, around visiting. People absolutely can visit family Minister. The first is travel advice. It is half-term next and friends at half-term if they follow social distancing week, and families will be visiting and going on short guidelines. I think people absolutely will exercise that breaks. Should they now cancel those trips? Secondly, personal responsibility and common sense when they hotels, bed and breakfasts, and restaurants are getting go about their family time or school time. cancellations. What support will hospitality get? Finally, my constituents can see the data on where the hotspots Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab): Last year the Prime are. When will we start using granular data to tackle the Minister gave in to pressure from trade unions and outbreaks, rather than lumping whole council areas cross-party opposition and announced refunds for health into these advised restrictions? and care workers from overseas for the £624 charge they are paying to use the NHS. Yesterday the Minister for Nadhim Zahawi: Let me take those questions in reverse. Health, the hon. Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar) On granular data, we already have the capability in the could not tell me how many healthcare workers had vaccination programme to see by postcode area where been refunded, and in Committee earlier, the Care the uptake is at. That is how we can focus our resources Minister did not know either. Does this Minister know to turbocharge the programme, as we have done and how many, if any, healthcare heroes have had their will continue to do, including in Kirklees. NHS charges refunded, or was it just another empty On pubs and hospitality, indoor areas and hospitality promise from this Government? venues can continue to serve seated clientele, diners and drinkers, as I described earlier. If people have booked Nadhim Zahawi: I am happy to write to the hon. visits to their families, they are absolutely able to have Lady with the answer to her question. Suffice it to say them as long as they follow social distancing guidelines that this is an important amount of money to those and common sense. people and I do not think we should be playing politics We need to make sure that we are vigilant, because with it in a sort of “gotcha” moment. the B1617.2 variant is concerning, and we have to bring it under control by turbocharging vaccinations, surge Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con): The Minister will recall testing, isolating and genome sequencing. that we were told that the first lockdown was required to give time to build capacity in the NHS. Can he Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): I agree with therefore tell us how many more hospital beds are my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley available now than in March last year? (Jason McCartney): what we need now more than ever before is clear communication from the Government, so Nadhim Zahawi: I will write to my right hon. Friend that residents of Burnley, Blackburn and Bolton know with that detail. Suffice it to say that we now have 908 exactly what is expected of them. Will the Minister people with covid, as I said in my statement—the lowest confirm that this guidance is guidance and that my number since lockdown. constituents can still exercise the freedoms that they reclaimed last Monday? Will he meet me and other Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): South colleagues to talk through what more we can do to Shields and North Tyneside are interconnected. Today, make sure that communication is clear in the areas my community and businesses are incredibly anxious. where we need it most? 261 Covid-19 25 MAY 2021 262

Nadhim Zahawi: I am very happy to meet my hon. Criminal Justice Review: Response to Rape Friend. On the guidance, as I have made clear on a number of occasions at the Dispatch Box, people have to be careful and vigilant, as they have been already. 1.37 pm A number of colleagues have asked about the Batley AlexDavies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab) (Urgent Question): and Spen by-election. We have just demonstrated in the To ask the Attorney General if he will make a statement local elections that we can conduct elections safely; we on when the Government’s end-to-end review of the will be able to conduct that by-election safely, too. criminal justice system response to rape will be published. People just need to be sensible. Let us work together, bring this together and take the politics out of it. The Minister for Crime and Policing (): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Alex Mr Speaker: I now suspend the House for three Davies-Jones) for her continued interest in the Government’s minutes to enable the necessary arrangements to be work in this area. Rape and sexual violence are devastating made for the next business. crimes that impact on victims for the rest of their life. When victims take the brave step of reporting the crime, 1.34 pm they expose their deep personal trauma in the interests Sitting suspended. of justice. The criminal justice system needs to support those victims, believe them and ensure that their needs are met at the heart of the criminal investigation. The Government have long recognised that the decline in the number of effective trials for rape and serious sexual offences in England and Wales is a cause of significant concern. As a result, we commissioned the end-to-end rape review in March 2019 to look at evidence across the system, from reporting to the police to outcomes in court, in order to understand what is happening in cases of adult rape and serious sexual offences being charged, prosecuted and convicted in England and Wales. Our review represents a serious commitment to change by the Government and our partners. At its heart will be a set of actions that will drive system and culture change to ensure that the victims feel supported and able to stay engaged with their case. That, combined with updated and stronger case preparation methods, as well as increased communication between all those involved in the prosecution and new charge mechanisms, should lead to more cases reaching court and, we hope, defendants pleading guilty. To ensure that that happens, I have been tasked by the Prime Minister to take personal leadership of the actions from the review, working with colleagues across Government to ensure accountability of operational partners for delivery. I will of course regularly update the House on our progress. On the substantive question, I was keen to publish the rape review last year. However, following extensive feedback from the Victims’ Commissioner and the victim sector that we needed to take account of the End Violence Against Women Coalition’s “The Decriminalisation of Rape” report and the pending judicial review judgment, we took the decision to delay publication. We have used the time since that delay to carry out further research and engage with stakeholders in order to formulate an ambitious and wide-reaching action plan, which we will be publishing shortly after recess. When we publish the report, I will present it to Parliament and write to colleagues across the House to outline our approach. I look forward to working with the hon. Member and, indeed, all Members across the House to ensure that this action plan drives the substantial change we need to see.

Alex Davies-Jones: The failings of the criminal justice system, particularly in cases involving violence against women and girls, have been well documented in this place, yet victims of rape continue to be a last priority 263 Criminal Justice Review: Response 25 MAY 2021 Criminal Justice Review: Response 264 to Rape to Rape for this Government. Yesterday, ’s analysis As the hon. Lady will know, the Crown Prosecution of Home Office figures for rape prosecutions was published, Service and the National Police Chiefs’ Council launched and it makes for truly appalling reading. Fewer than their joint action plan in January this year, and I am one in 60 rape cases reported to the police last year pleased that that progress is being made as well. resulted in a suspect being charged. In 2020, more than That is against a background of significant action by 52,000 rapes were reported in England and Wales, yet the Government over the past decade in various areas only 843 resulted in a charge or summons. That figure of violence against women and girls, which I hope the translates to a shocking rate of just 1.6%. hon. Lady will appreciate and applaud, ranging from Like many others, I initially welcomed the Government’s creating the offence of coercive control to outlawing commitment to an end-to-end rape review of the criminal upskirting, stalking, and revenge porn and the threat justice system, yet we are now more than two years thereof. We have just passed the landmark Domestic down the line and, after a number of delays, that vital Abuse Act 2021 with great support across both Houses. review is still nowhere to be seen. The Justice Secretary Alongside that, we have the information and support recently announced that it would be published before campaigns the Government have been running, along the end of the spring, yet the stakeholder reference with the very significant financial support that has gone group that the Minister alluded to has not been consulted into support for victims and witnesses of rape and on what is in the rape review action plan. Enough is sexual violence. enough. The document is important, and it was important to The Government have repeatedly acknowledged that get it right—as I say, we delayed it at the request of the they have not been robust enough in their efforts to Victims’ Commissioner and the victims sector. Please be tackle gender-based violence, but it does not have to be under no illusion: we are working extremely hard to try this way. The Labour Government in Wales passed the to correct what, as the hon. Lady points out, is an injustice. Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, which set out 10 national Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con) [V]: indicators of progress in tackling violence against women As somebody who both prosecuted and defended probably and girls by which the Government can be held to dozens of rape cases in the course of my career at the account. By contrast, the UK Government cannot even Bar, I can say that the Minister is certainly right to commit to publishing their own review in good time. recognise that these are always complex and demanding cases.The difficulty of securing the same level of convictions So I ask the Minister: will he now take this opportunity as there is for other types of serious offence has been to apologise for this delay to thousands of rape victims, around for many years—it is not a recent one. and particularly the 40% who are rapidly losing faith in the justice system and withdrawing from prosecutions? It is also right, of course, to have delayed publication Will he support Labour’s call to introduce a similar until the decision of the Court of Appeal in the judicial indicator to that seen in Wales, to facilitate a transparent review; otherwise, it might have materially altered the approach to tackling violence against women and girls? review’s conclusions. However, now that all the challenges Lastly, will he once and for all confirm an exact date for have been dismissed on all grounds and the judgment when this review will be published? has been handed down, on 14 May, will my hon. Friend undertake to ensure that not only is the document published but that there is proper resourcing to support Kit Malthouse: I completely appreciate the hon. Lady’s the joint national plan of action between the Crown righteous anger about this situation. As I said in my Prosecution Service and the police? Doing the same is statement, this is not a matter about which any of us are starting to make a difference in relation to the problems particularly pleased or proud, and it is a source of experienced in the past with disclosure. Getting the regret that the investigation and conviction of rape has thing working on the ground, surely, is what we must been declining for some years. It is a difficult offence to now tackle very urgently. deal with at the best of times, but the significant declines that we have seen in the past few years are absolutely Kit Malthouse: I am grateful to the Chair of the Select what we wish to address. Committee. He is quite right that to get this complicated However, against that background, I am sorry that and difficult piece of work correct, it was appropriate the hon. Lady seeks to politicise what should be a for us to delay.I have to confess that I was pretty gung-ho cross-party issue, not a Labour/Conservative issue. There —anxious to get it out before Christmas. But as I say, are many Members on the Government Benches for the intervention of the sector and the judicial review whom this has been a significant issue for some time. As meant that we had to hold off because of the implications. Mayor of London, the Prime Minister himself published My hon. Friend is quite right that the key issue is not the first ever violence against women and girls strategy so much the document, which is an important statement in this country and, indeed, in any major city around and political moment, but the operationalisation of the world. This is an issue that has been close to his what is within it. While we are dealing with a police heart, and indeed mine, for some time. service of tens of thousands of individuals, a prosecution I should also point out to the hon. Lady that, service with many people involved, and lots of other notwithstanding the fact that there is a document that parties that take a case from report to court, getting requires publishing—as I say, that will be published them all to both act and think differently—the culture shortly after recess—she should not mistake that for the change as well as the operational change—will be an beginning of the work. Much work has been done thus enormous challenge. That is what we are focused on. He far, and we are engaged closely with the police, the will be pleased to know that I have convened a Criminal Crown Prosecution Service and other partners to make Justice Board taskforce of key individuals in the sure that the action plan and the work we need to do to organisations involved to try to drive that operational get more cases from report into court has begun already. challenge of embedding change. 265 Criminal Justice Review: Response 25 MAY 2021 Criminal Justice Review: Response 266 to Rape to Rape Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): Thank desire here to see better outcomes and more justice for you for granting this urgent question, Madam Deputy victims in court, and we will have to stand shoulder to Speaker. shoulder if we are going to make that happen. The Government are letting down victims of rape and serious sexual violence on every front. Victims are Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con): The devastating impact being left waiting years for their day in court, with no on victims from rape, sexual exploitation, sexual violence support, no communication and no action from the and grooming is shattering and long-lasting, and every Government. When I have spoken to victims, they tell victim must feel able to come forward with confidence me that they often feel as though they are on trial and that their complaint will be fully investigated and, where how being left to wait years for their day in court leaves evidence supports, that charges and prosecutions will them in a form of purgatory, unable to move on from follow. However, not all victims have confidence in the what has happened to them. Many feel that the justice criminal justice system, so can my hon. Friend outline system is working against them, not for them. That is a what steps the Government are taking to support those complete and utter failing of this Government. victims and provide reassurance that any complaint will be taken seriously? We have been waiting for over two years for the rape review. The Minister refers to the court judgment, but Kit Malthouse: My hon. Friend is right that we have that was handed down weeks ago—again, the date of to make sure in all we do that victims are at the heart of publication has been kicked into the long grass, with no the criminal justice system, and he will have seen in the action from the Government. In that time, another recent Queen’s Speech that we have made a commitment 100,000 rapes are reported to have taken place. to bring in a new victims law. It will put the victims Victims cannot wait any longer for action. The code, which has 12 strong rights for victims in the Government must urgently publish their review, which criminal justice system, into law and ensure that all the must include hard-hitting recommendations and root- operational partners—the police, the CPS and the courts, and-branch reform to the CPS, Ministry of Justice and which are all rightly independent of Government—see Home Office. We need to see how the Government the need to take up the challenge of putting victims at intend to reverse the shocking deterioration of rape the heart of the system. prosecutions they have allowed to happen under their watch and how they intend to improve the criminal Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: justice system for victims of rape and sexual violence. The statistics are frankly lamentable, and behind each What we do not need are slapdash briefings to the press one is a victim. There were 52,210 rapes recorded by about what is potentially in the review. No more pilots, police in England and Wales in 2020. Only 843 resulted no more consultations—what we need is action. We in a charge or a summons—a rate of 1.6%. For every need a plan, and Labour has one. We have set out what 10 cases the CPS prosecuted in 2016-17, it now pursues we would do in our survivors’ support plan and in our only three. We know what failure looks like: it is this. Green Paper, “Ending violence against women and What should the figures look like to be acceptable to the girls”. So today, I ask the Minister: will he commit to Minister? How long does he think we should have to backing Labour’ssurvivors’support plan? Will he introduce wait to get to that point? indicators across the Crown Prosecution Service, the Ministry of Justice and police to improve victims’experience Kit Malthouse: The hon. Member is quite right. As I of the criminal justice system, as set out in our Green have said, the numbers are deeply, deeply regrettable, Paper? Will he finally commit to a date for the publication and he is correct that not enough victims are getting of the review, or will he continue to watch the effective justice in court. There have obviously been significant decriminalisation of rape? changes in technology, not least the advent of the mobile phone and the critical part it plays in so many of Kit Malthouse: As I said earlier, we have committed these investigations. We need to get ourselves in shape, that the review will be published shortly after the recess, both in terms of capacity and capability, and we need but as I said in answer to an earlier question, please do the right framework around inquiry and disclosure for not believe that we are waiting for the production of the the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. That plan to start the work. Indeed, much of the work has work is ongoing. We have ambitions, obviously, to raise been done already.The hon. Lady will know, for example, the number very significantly,but I would not underestimate that Project Bluestone in Avon and Somerset police is the operational challenge in embedding this across 43 police doing fantastic work at the moment on a new model forces. The hon. Gentleman will know that creating the of operation for this kind of investigation and on joint structural change alongside the cultural change in two close working between the police and the Crown operationally independent organisations, as well as in Prosecution Service. They have a joint operational the court system, will take time and a foundational improvement board. They have launched their action plan. approach to change, which we are committed to and on There was significant support for that and a massive which the work has started already. mobilisation across policing to deal with, in particular, the new disclosure guidelines that the Attorney General’s (Beaconsfield) (Con): What is being Office has issued in response to the growth in the use of done to improve the collaboration between the police mobile phones in the investigation of crime, particularly and the Crown Prosecution Service to ensure that more in this area. cases are actually charged? I would be more than happy to look at the Labour Green Paper,because I do not think there is any monopoly Kit Malthouse: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who, on good ideas in this area, as I hope that my opposite as usual, puts her finger on the key issue—the relationship number will look with an open mind at the plan that we between the police and the CPS, in their collaboration publish and the work we intend to do. Weall have a shared to get a case to court, is absolutely critical. I hope she 267 Criminal Justice Review: Response 25 MAY 2021 Criminal Justice Review: Response 268 to Rape to Rape saw that, in January, the National Police Chiefs’ Council throughout the criminal justice system that are denying and the Crown Prosecution Service launched their joint survivors justice and allowing rapists to walk free. The national action plan, with five themed areas of work that results of the analysis initiated by my hon. Friend the are designed to do exactly that. Those are on support Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) are shocking. As a for victims; casework quality and progression; digital former sexual offences trained police officer, I think capability and disclosure, including looking at mobile that what these statistics make clear is that police and phones, as I mentioned earlier; people and expertise— prosecutors need more resources and training to bring critically,building knowledge and expertise—and engaging perpetrators to justice, whether that means supporting properly with stakeholders. I know that Deputy Chief survivors, handling investigations sensitively, analysing Constable Sarah Crew, with whom I have met many digital evidence or countering damaging stereotypes. times, and Baljit Ubhey and Sue Hemming from the The Minister talked in his response about this being CPS are leading the charge on this. They form part of part of ongoing work, so what are the Government the criminal justice support taskforce, which I lead, to doing now to deliver? try to drive the kind of results that we want to see. Kit Malthouse: I agree with the hon. Lady about Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) [V]: resources and training. The development of expertise, Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lefarydd. The shocking drop which she obviously had in her career, is a key part of in rape convictions demonstrates the need for urgent, the Crown Prosecution Service and National Police radical, systemic change. Welsh Women’s Aid has stressed Chiefs’ Council joint national action plan. We see better to me the importance of accurate, disaggregated data results from specialist teams, and often those structural for Wales in its monitoring of the current duty to issues that allow police officers to stay in post for prevent crime and protect victims under the Violence longer, and develop an expertise in what my hon. Friend against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence will know is a difficult and sensitive area of investigation, (Wales) Act 2015. Will the Minister commit to a regular are critical. We must also ensure that the CPS is able to publication of Wales-specific data relating to cases of develop that specialism, and that will be a critical part rape, and will he acknowledge that prosecution support of the joint national action plan. services will work effectively for rape survivors only when justice powers are devolved to Wales, as they are Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): In South to Scotland and Northern Ireland? Yorkshire just 24 people were charged, despite nearly 1,600 reports of rape being made in 2019. The Minister Kit Malthouse: Data and transparency is one of the says that the Government have taken action, but their key themes that we have been looking at as part of recent Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill does the rape review. There will be an announcement, when not mention women once. Will he admit that through the plan comes, about what we intend to do in terms of their lack of action, this Government have effectively reporting. I am afraid that I do not support her call for decriminalised rape? more devolution. I think that England and Wales are stronger together on this issue, as on so many others. Kit Malthouse: I am sorry to hear the numbers from South Yorkshire, and I know the hon. Lady will address (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: The vast them with the police and crime commissioner there, majority of rape victims know the perpetrator in the who is responsible for the performance of the police. He first place, and the vast majority are in relationships also chairs the local criminal justice board, which is with them, or historically have been. The key here is designed to bring partners together in that area to work ensuring that once a victim of rape reports it to the on exactly these issues. The Police, Crime, Sentencing police, they are dealt with not only sympathetically, but and Courts Bill includes provisions that will focus on supported all the way along the line to court. This is a offences that largely impact women, not least the end of structural and cultural change that needs to take place. the halfway release for serious sexual offenders, including What effort is my hon. Friend making to ensure that rapists who, when the Bill goes through, will have to cultural change, as well as structural change, is actually serve two-thirds of their sentence, providing greater implemented? protection and justice for their victims. Kit Malthouse: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that (Newbury) (Con) [V]: Because the majority one of the key issues that we have to address is what they of rapes take place behind closed doors, where the call “victim attrition”, which is a slightly depersonalised, victim knows the perpetrator, and in circumstances that desensitised phrase for victims not feeling that they are are incredibly difficult to prove afterwards, it has always going to get justice and giving up along the way. I was been a difficult crime for which to get a conviction. The very pleased that the Government announced a massive most striking features of the current rate are the high increase in the amount of money being given to create rate of attrition, and the fact that the CPS has seen fit to the posts of independent sexual violence advisers and update the rape and serious sexual offences guidance all domestic abuse advisers, who will help to support victims the way through the year on victim behaviour. Does my through the criminal justice system to make sure that hon. Friend think there is a case for specialised prosecutors, they get to court in good shape and able to give the and a specialist sexual offences court to deal with such evidence that they wish to give. There will be more crimes? about this issue in the review and I hope that, when it comes, he will welcome it. Kit Malthouse: I had the pleasure of watching a talk that my hon. Friend gave last night to a think-tank Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): Despite about these issues, and she was very thoughtful and the reasoning, the long delayin publishing the Government’s interesting on this subject. Across all crime types we see review of rape cases is emblematic of the chronic delays that specialism pays, both in apprehending the perpetrator, 269 Criminal Justice Review: Response 25 MAY 2021 Criminal Justice Review: Response 270 to Rape to Rape [Kit Malthouse] Kit Malthouse: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s constructive question. He is right; we do think that the but also in getting a conviction. We must ensure that the use of section 28, as it is called—giving recorded evidence— police and CPS can develop those specialisms. All will have a role to play. As he will know, we have rolled it prosecutions are currently charged by specialist RASSO out for vulnerable victims across all Crown courts, and prosecutors, but a collective expertise must be a key mission we now have a number of pathfinder courts—in for us. Alongside that, we must ensure that victims have and, I think, Leeds—where we are using it in cases of specialist support, and expertise is key to that. intimidated witnesses, not least in cases of rape and My hon. Friend is right to say that this is a particularly sexual violence. As for the guidance that he points difficult, evidential situation, where often it is one word towards, that is a police-owned document, and I know against another, and other circumstantial evidence may that they are collaborating closely with the CPS and the or may not lead to a conviction. I want to concentrate Criminal Bar Association to get it right. We stand ready on the key area of recent reporting, and on encouraging to help them with publication once their work is finished. people to report as soon as possible. As she will know, Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab) [V]: I there is a short forensic window in such situations— have heard harrowing testimony from a number of my normally 7 to 10 days—and there are sensitive forensic constituents about their experience of seeking justice facilities where evidence can be gathered. We know that after rape and sexual violence. The majority felt that in such circumstances, the likelihood of conviction is they had been further traumatised by the process and much greater. For historical offenders it is even more felt like they were the ones on trial, whether because difficult, which is why expertise is even more important. they were required to hand over their digital devices, because they were not able to access pre-trial therapy, or Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) because of the myths and stereotypes that abound. (Lab): The Government know that rape prosecution Listening to that testimony, I felt vindicated in my and conviction rates have always been too low, own decision not to go to the police—a decision that but they have plummeted over the last four years, thousands of women sadly take because they dropping by 60% to 70%. Ministers were warned several understandably feel like their trauma will only be years ago about the impact of cuts to specialist rape compounded by the process, with a minuscule likelihood prosecutors and to specialist sexual violence teams in of securing a conviction. Will the Minister therefore the police. Has the Minister done an assessment of please commit to supporting Labour’s call for the what the reduction in some of those specialist policing establishment of a pre and post-trial survivor support teams has been, what the impact has been, and what package, including a full legal advocacy scheme for additional capacity is now needed in those specialist victims and better training for professionals around teams, in both the CPS and the police, to turn this awful myths and stereotypes, so that survivors can finally have situation around? some confidence in this process? Kit Malthouse: It is obviously a matter of deep regret Kit Malthouse: I thank the Chair of the Home Affairs that anybody feels prevented from coming forward to Committee for her question, but it would be a mistake report a rape, or indeed a sexual assault, to the police. to point to one particular issue driving the drop. We That is one of the issues that we need to address—building know, for example, that the significant fall from 2016-17 confidence among victims that they should and could was down to difficulties with disclosure that arose from step forward, recognising at all times that it takes enormous particular cases, and the impact that that has had on courage to do so. Like the hon. Lady, I have sat with both the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. victims of this particularly appalling and intimate crime I think it is sometimes a mistake to give the impression over the years, so I recognise the devastating impact that somehow a decision was made that this should that it can have. As to the measures that she calls for, I happen. It was not. There has been a pattern of decline obviously cannot make an announcement today, but I over a number of years. Part of the reason that we recommend that, when the review is published, she instituted the rape review, admittedly 24 months ago, reads it from cover to cover. was to try to diagnose exactly what has gone wrong—exactly why these cases are failing to get to court, why so many Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con): Being believed is witnesses are falling out before they get to court, why one of the most important things for a rape victim’s we are seeing difficulties with disclosure, and what we confidence. Being able to come forward and report the can do to improve, for example, our operation of digital rape in the first instance is not easy, especially when forensics, in terms of both capacity and capability. All sexual abuse survivors really fear that if they were to that will be contained in the review. I understand people’s report the crime no one would believe them, when impatience; there is not much longer to wait now. victims know that society can blame them for the aggression or, as is often the case, when the rape victim was known by the perpetrator. I therefore thank my hon. Friend for David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) his assurance today that the voices of victims are at the (Con) [V]: I commend the Government for the work that heart of the review, but will he assure me that rape has already been put in hand to improve support for victims going forward will have confidence in the criminal rape complainants. Will my hon. Friend give an update justice system’s handling of rape complaints? on when the new 2017 guidance on achieving best evidence—ABE—will be published and set out how the Kit Malthouse: While my primary objective will be to use of recorded pre-trial evidence and the specialist get more cases into court—that, fundamentally, is the input of the Criminal Bar Association are informing problem we are trying to address—my hon. Friend is the Government’s next steps? quite right that, alongside that, it is completely critical 271 Criminal Justice Review: Response 25 MAY 2021 Criminal Justice Review: Response 272 to Rape to Rape that we build confidence among victims in the criminal Kit Malthouse: Obviously, one of the key themes that justice system. We have seen an increase in reported rape we wanted to address as a Government is a general over the last few years, and it is quite a significant sense of safety in the public realm. That is why we are increase, so more people are confident to come forward. recruiting 20,000 more police officers and working day However, given the performance figures so far, that could and night to drive performance on all crime types to easily slip away, so making sure they are at the heart of create a greater sense of safety and security on our decision making—that they know when they come forward streets for men and women. that they can access the support they need, and can get I do not accept necessarily, however, that we need a the guidance and indeed the advocacy they need; that Bill as the hon. Lady has outlined, not least because we they will be received by police officers and prosecutors have managed to do a fair amount—a huge amount, who are invested properly in and are looking dispassionately actually—on violence against women and girls over the at the investigation; and that the natural inquiries required past few years through other means, as I set out earlier. as part of this sort of offence investigation are proportionate We have new offences of coercive control, upskirting and and do not invade privacy in a disproportionate way—will stalking, and on revenge porn. The rough sex defence has be critical to the mission, and I hope that that is what been dealt with, and we have introduced modern slavery she will find in the report. offences, when women are often trafficked for sex. We have even campaigned on rape being used as a weapon Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): The Minister has of war around the world. Alongside that are the report rightly highlighted the importance of data and transparency we have made on refuges, the domestic abuse helplines in the rape review. With some police forces reporting a and work that we are doing now on the rape review. rapid rise in sexual offending by women, what steps is That huge package points towards the safety of women he taking to ensure that all police forces accurately and girls. While there is much to be proud of in that, there record and collect data on the sex of both the victims is still a lot more to do, which is why later this year we and the perpetrators in all cases of rape and sexual will publish a violence against women and girls strategy violence? Does he agree with me that, when it comes to alongside a complementary domestic abuse strategy. recording crime, sex does matter? Rachael Maskell ( Central) (Lab/Co-op): The Kit Malthouse: I agree with the hon. Lady that justice system is in meltdown and the victims of all demographics of all types matter. Indeed, I forget who crime are having their justice delayed and subsequently it was, but someone said, “If you can’t measure something, denied, but survivors of rape and sexual violence are you don’t know how to change it”. One of the first also being denied vital psychological therapy and questions I have asked in my initial meetings in this job, counselling, since to seek such lifesaving support can be when officials come in with a particular area of policy deemed to interfere with the validity of their evidence. to deal with, is: do we actually know what is happening—do Will the Minister adopt Labour’s survivors’ support we have a clear picture of what is happening out there package as a first and immediate step to ensure that on the streets and communities we serve? I am more survivors may have their evidence pre-recorded and than happy to go back and have a look at the particular their cross-examination pre-trial, so that they may access issue she has raised to make sure that we are getting the the very help that they need? recording right. Kit Malthouse: The pandemic has been extremely (East Surrey) (Con) [V]: I welcome challenging for the court system over the past year or the Government’ssupport for independent sexual violence so, but we all have a duty not to be hyperbolic in our advisers, who we know have a profound effect in helping language—it is not in meltdown. Justice is still being victims to get through the court process. However, we dispensed in the courts, and while delay built up naturally know that there is an issue in convictions versus acquittals during the pandemic, an enormous amount of work in the court process as well. Could my hon. Friend has been done to deal with it, with the opening of please assure me that this will be thoroughly investigated Nightingale courts and a massive expansion of capacity. in the rape review, but also that we will be looking at We are seeing progress, so I hope that the hon. Lady will how we communicate the changes on a national level, focus on the work that needs to be done to recover from so that people who might not otherwise be engaged in the pandemic. We will see more positive outcomes in the political stories of the day will learn about these the months to come. changes and have confidence in the system going forward? Sarah Atherton () (Con): The military conviction rate is far lower than that in the civil system. Kit Malthouse: My hon. Friend is absolutely right Service personnel and veterans’ representatives are all that we need to create a self-reinforcing story of success, calling for military rape to be heard in civilian courts. where the support we give to victims and the changes in Will my right hon. Friend agree to discuss with his our methodology and indeed practices between the Ministry of Defence counterpart that all victims, regardless police and the CPS lead to a greater number of cases of where the assault took place, should receive the going into court, and that in turn leads to a greater justice that they deserve? number of convictions, which should build confidence among victims. I hope that is exactly the kind of spiral Kit Malthouse: I share my hon. Friend’s concern of success that the report will produce. about the low figures in military courts as well, and I will of course discuss that with the Secretary of State Paula Barker (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab) [V]: Seven for Defence or my ministerial counterpart. I know that in 10 women say the Government’s efforts to make the my hon. Friend is authoring, or leading on, a report on UK safer for women are lacking. Does the Minister back women in the armed forces at the moment. I shall look Labour’s Bill to end violence against women and girls, forward to reading that as well and drawing some and if not, does he believe seven in 10 women are wrong? conclusions from it for my work. 273 Criminal Justice Review: Response 25 MAY 2021 Criminal Justice Review: Response 274 to Rape to Rape Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): Violence Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): One of the issues against women and girls starts really young. I do not in securing convictions is proving lack of consent. As know whether the Minister saw the news today about my hon. Friend has said, it is often one person’s word the research done by Radio 4 and the NASUWT into against the other person’s. Would he consider working sexual violence and harassment in schools, but a third with the Crown Prosecution Service and the police to of teachers had witnessed peer-on-peer sexual harassment establish guidelines as to how to prove consent or lack or abuse and one in 10 see this happening on a weekly thereof? basis. Kit Malthouse: My hon. Friend raises a critical issue, The problem we have with violence against women which, as she says, is at the heart of so many of these and girls in this country starts young and it never ends. investigations. I know that, as part of their joint action We have a real problem, so as well as no more delays to plan, the police and the CPS will be looking at exactly the publication of the end-to-end rape review, will the such issues to ensure that there is consistency and, frankly, Minister commit to talking seriously to his colleagues in that they can get the right kind of result in court. the Department for Education about addressing the need for education on consent for boys and girls in Dame Diana Johnson ( North) schools and through youth work? (Lab) [V]: Can the Minister tell the House whether the rape review looks at the shockingly low figures for Kit Malthouse: The hon. Lady makes an important convictions of men who rape women and girls who have point which, as I am sure she appreciates, is not within been trafficked for commercial sexual exploitation; and my ministerial ambit to comment on. However, through will this be addressed in any action plan, including the the work of the Department for Digital, Culture, Media need for new legislation to protect women and girls, and and Sport on the online harms Bill and of the Department to hold men accountable for their actions? for Education, we are all very much aware that young people take their signals and learn their behaviour from Kit Malthouse: As the right hon. Lady will know, the adults around them. We all have a duty to ensure thanks to this Government there are now significant that they grow up as right-thinking members of society. penalties under the modern slavery legislation for those who traffic individuals. However, I hope she will forgive me if I do not necessarily reveal what is in the review. I Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): It is a fact that hope that she will see that, whatever the circumstances victims of rape and sexual assault are deterred from of that particular offence, once the work starts—the reporting these crimes. The combination of very low work has started, but once we get going on the work conviction rates, reporting requirements and a societal that sits behind the rape review—we will see perpetrators view of victim blaming combine to contribute against of all kinds of these offences in court, where justice can these feelings of deterrence. What can the Government be dispensed. do to ensure that the voices of victims are right at the heart of the review? David Johnston (Wantage) (Con): Last month, a constituent of mine sent me a very powerful account of Kit Malthouse: I hope that, given his obvious conviction how her case has taken nearly three years to reach and commitment to this issue, my hon. Friend will court. During that time, she has been told not to have volunteer to be on the Committee that considers the therapy; that she could have therapy as long as the notes victims’ Bill when it enters the House. It will be a critical were shared with the defence; that she should not claim part of the architecture of ensuring that we build confidence compensation; that she should not speak about it; and, in the system among victims, and I look forward to its at one point, that she would not be able to watch the passage through the House. trial. Will my hon. Friend assure me that the review will look both at how we can get cases to court more quickly, but at how victims can feel more supported, rather than Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: The feeling as my constituent has felt—inadvertently silenced? Minister says that justice is being dispensed in our courts. Well, in April this year a convicted rapist who Kit Malthouse: I am very distressed to hear the experience named and blamed his victim on Facebook got a paltry of my hon. Friend’s constituent; it sounds like a dreadful £120 fine. We rightly give victims of rape anonymity for case. On the therapy issue, the guidelines in place say life. What message does he think it sends to victims that pre-trial therapy is absolutely allowed and appropriate, when this important protection is being abused and the and nobody should be steered away from it. I would be penalty for it is less than someone would get for fly-tipping? more than happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss that And if he agrees that it is not acceptable, what is he particular case, because it sounds like one from which doing about it? we can learn some lessons.

Kit Malthouse: As you will know, Madam Deputy (Newport West) (Lab): Dame Vera Baird, Speaker, victims of these kinds of offences do have a the Victims’ Commissioner, has stated that the right to lifetime anonymity. Although I have to admit Government’s rape review team that that penalty standing alone does seem derisory, the “took the surprising decision not to seek the views of those who hon. Lady will know that the particular individual—I really matter—rape survivors.” think we are talking about the same case—received a Will the Minister confirm today that the upcoming very significant sentence for the substantive offence. end-to-end review did consult survivors of rape and This is an issue that we will be keeping under review, but sexual violence? If it did not, how can he assure the for the purposes of the rape review my job is to get more House that the review is in fact end-to-end without its cases into court, and that is what I will be focusing on. speaking to those directly impacted? 275 Criminal Justice Review: Response 25 MAY 2021 276 to Rape Kit Malthouse: Of course we consulted survivors, and Points of Order a number of organisations that represent survivors were represented on the engagement panel as part of the development of the review. Indeed, more than that, the 2.27 pm Government appointed Emily Hunt, a high-profile Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): campaigner on this issue and herself a survivor, as an On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Last week, expert adviser. the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care announced, without making a separate statement, that Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con) [V]: There is a Hounslow and other local authority areas would be benefit to being last to ask a question: one gets to see added to the new surge areas, rolling that announcement the whole debate. Throughout these exchanges there into his response to the Queen’s Speech debate. My hon. has been one common theme, which is trust. Only this Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth month I have written to the Minister about harassment Cadbury) and I appreciated a call from the Secretary of cases, but at its worst it is rape cases. People need to State’s Minister while the Secretary of State was in the believe that when they come forward they will be trusted, Chamber, but we were subsequently shocked to find out that the police can be trusted to do their jobs, that they that Hounslow Council had not been directly contacted can trust sentences to be punishment and, finally, that about the statement at all. The council found out about we in this House are implementing the right laws. I am it when it was phoned by the Evening Standard at not asking the Minister to comment specifically on lunchtime, ahead of the Secretary of State’s statement. whether this review will deliver that, but overall does he The tone of the conversation sounded not like a journalist think that it will bring trust into the system so that more fishing but that a journalist knew what was coming. convictions will go forward? Today, Hounslow residents have woken up to see the Kit Malthouse: My hon. Friend is absolutely right news that the guidance on the Department of Health that trust in the police, the prosecution service and the and Social Care’s website was updated without courts is critical to building the confidence and legitimacy announcement, causing confusion, and again without on which our law-enforcement system rests. Having communication to the council. One playgroup found been involved in the development of the plan, I hope out when the staff went to a hall and set everything up and believe that it will do two things: first, address that and then had to shut it down after 10 minutes. The particular issue in what is a complex environment; and council leader has said that the secondly, bring justice for individual victims, absent the “current communication from Government on our national covid general confidence that we should all try to instil in the response is woefully lacking” system. and impacting on the council’s work to inform and protect local residents. That is despite the Minister Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I saying today, at least twice, that communication between thank the Minister for answering the urgent question. health leaders and councils is essential in keeping people safe and tackling the spread of the virus. This is no way to treat our constituents. Could you advise me, Madam Deputy Speaker, on how MPs can have a proper chance to ask questions on behalf of their constituencies if the Secretary of State is not making statements on significant changes in policy to this House? Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving me notice of her point of order. While the Chair is not responsible for the content of statements, Mr Speaker has made it clear that important announcements should be made to the Chamber first. Clearly, what constitutes an important announcement is a matter of judgment, but the hon. Lady has placed her views on the record, and I am sure that Ministers and Whips on the Treasury Bench will have heard her concerns. As she said, Mr Speaker did grant an urgent question earlier today in which similar points were made, but her points will have been added to those, and I am sure she will find other ways to make her concerns known. Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Last week, I asked the Health Secretary a very simple and honest question about a matter that is of national importance but also of local concern to my constituents, and that is the opening of the Leamington Spa mega-laboratory, a testing facility. The Secretary of State did not give me any answer to that question. I have written many times to his Department asking what is going on. Could you advise how on earth my constituents and all of us are supposed to know what is going on with that project? 277 Points of Order 25 MAY 2021 278

Madam Deputy Speaker: I thank the hon. Member Telecommunications (Security) Bill for giving me notice that he wanted to raise that point. Of course, I am not responsible for Ministers’ answers Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill in the Chamber, but again, I am sure that those on the Committee Treasury Bench will have noted his point. I suggest that he pursues the factual answers he seeks through other New Clause 1 methods, such as written questions. I am sure that those in the Table Office and other Clerks would be happy to OFCOM’S ANNUAL REPORT give him advice on the other ways in which he might get (1) The Communications Act 2003 is amended as follows. the information he seeks. (2) After section 105Z29 insert— I am now suspending the House for three minutes, to “105Z30 OFCOM’S ANNUAL REPORT enable arrangements to be made for the next item of (1) Every report under paragraph 12 of the Schedule to the business. Office of Communications Act 2002 (OFCOM’s annual report) must include a statement on— 2.31 pm (a) the adequacy of OFCOM’s resourcing in fulfilling its Sitting suspended. functions under the amendments made to this Act by the Telecommunications (Security) Act 2021; (b) OFCOM’s determination of the adequacy of measures taken by network providers in the previous 12 months to comply with sections 105A and 105B of the Communications Act 2003 and regulations made thereunder; and (c) OFCOM’s assessment of emerging or future areas of security risk based on its interrogation of network providers’ asset registries. (2) The statement required by subsection (1)(a) must include an assessment of— (a) the adequacy of Ofcom’s budget and funding; (b) the adequacy of staffing levels in Ofcom; (c) any skills shortages faced by Ofcom.”—(Chi Onwurah.) This new clause introduces an obligation on Ofcom to report on the adequacy of their resources and assess the adequacy of the annual measures taken by telecommunications providers to comply with their duty to take necessary security measures. It also requires Ofcom to assess future areas of security risk based on its interrogation of network providers’ asset registries. Brought up, and read the First time.

2.34 pm Chi Onwurah ( Central) (Lab) [V]: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 2—Provision of information to the Intelligence and Security Committee— “The Secretary of State must provide the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament as soon as is reasonably practicable with a copy of— (a) any direction or notice (or part thereof) that is withheld from publication by the Secretary of State in the interests of national security in accordance with section 105Z11(2) or (3) of the Communications Act 2003; (b) any notification of contravention given by the Secretary of State in accordance with section 105Z18(1) of the Communications Act 2003; (c) any confirmation decision given by the Secretary of State in accordance with section 105Z20(2)(a) of the Communications Act 2003; (d) any reasons for making an urgent enforcement direction that are withheld by the Secretary of State in the interests of national security in the accordance with section 105Z22(5) of the Communications Act 2003; and (e) any reasons for confirming or modifying an urgent enforcement direction that are withheld by the Secretary of State in the interests of national security in accordance with section 105Z23(6) of the Communications Act 2003.” 279 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 280

This new clause would ensure that the Intelligence and Security to require the removal of Huawei, at an estimated cost Committee of Parliament is provided with any information relating of £2 billion and a delay of two to three years to our 5G to a designated vendor direction, notification of contravention, roll-out, after overseeing Huawei’s rapid rise to be the urgent enforcement action or modifications to an enforcement foremost supplier to the telecoms company that carries direction made on grounds of national security. our country’s name and universal service obligation: New clause 3—Network diversification— British Telecom. “(1) The Secretary of State must publish an annual report on the impact of progress of the diversification of the telecommunications The telecoms supply chain review found that there supply chain on the security of public electronic communication were no incentives for our mobile network operators to networks and services. provide secure networks. Moreover, successive Tory (2) The report required by subsection (1) must include an Governments have squandered the world-leading position assessment of the effect on the security of those networks and on broadband infrastructure left to them by Labour in services of— 2010, as the United Kingdom has fallen down the (a) progress in network diversification set against the most league table from 27th to 47th in the world for average recent telecommunications diversification strategy internet speeds. This lack of sovereign capability and presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State; absence of an effective telecoms strategy has resulted in (b) likely changes in ownership or trading position of our dependency on high-risk vendors, which the Bill existing market players; seeks to address. (c) changes to the diversity of the supply chain for network I am sure that you will be pleased to know, Madam equipment; Deputy Speaker,that I will not repeat the same arguments (d) new areas of market consolidation and diversification on Huawei that have dominated the debate over recent risk including the cloud computing sector; years. Given where we are now, we support the aims of (e) progress made in any aspects of the implementation of the Bill. National security is the first duty of any the diversification strategy not covered by subsection (a); Government, and Labour will always put national security (f) the public funding which is available for diversification. first. Our telecoms infrastructure is clearly critical to (3) The Secretary of State must lay the report before Parliament. our defence and security,as well as our economic prosperity. (4) A Minister of the Crown must, not later than two months We agree that, as the Bill sets out, the Secretary of after the report has been laid before Parliament, make a motion State should have powers to designate vendors of concern in the House of Commons in relation to the report.” and require mobile network operators to take appropriate This new clause requires the Secretary of State to report on the action, and that Ofcom should have the power to monitor impact of the Government’s diversification strategy on the security and enforce those directions. However,we wish to improve of telecommunication networks and services, and allow for a debate the Bill in three key areas, which our new clauses 1, in the House of Commons on the report. 2 and 3 seek to address. Amendment 1, in clause 14, page 21, line 27, at end insert— The first area is national security. Labour prioritises national security, and the sweeping powers that the Bill “(3) The Secretary of State must, in the process of carrying gives the Secretary of State must be used in the interests out reviews and drafting subsequent reports, consult the appropriate ministers from the devolved governments.” of securing our critical national infrastructure. Removing Huawei does not, in and of itself, make our networks Chi Onwurah: It is a great pleasure to speak in this secure now or protect them against future threats; that debate on Report. As I may have mentioned before, I requires a number of additional measures, some of am a chartered electrical engineer; before I entered which are in the Bill and some of which are not. For a Parliament, I worked for 20 years helping to build out start, if our telecoms network is to be secure, there must the networks—fixed wireless and mobile—that became be expert democratic oversight of the measures that the internet. I am proud of that work and of the make it secure—yet the Bill makes no provision for immense contribution that the telecommunications sector Parliament’s experts, the Intelligence and Security makes to our society, our economy and our security. Committee, to be informed or consulted. We want to fix that. I am very pleased that today we are dedicating parliamentary time to our telecommunications sector. I Secondly, the security of our network depends on an thank all Members across the House who served on the effective plan to diversify the supply chain. We are very Bill Committee for our many hours of fruitful debate as concerned that the Bill does not even mention diversification we strove to secure improvements to the Bill. I also and thus risks short-changing our national security, our thank the officials of this House, particularly in the technological sovereignty and our telecoms infrastructure. Public Bill Office and the Library, who have provided We want to ensure that progress is made in diversification such excellent support. as a prerequisite for the security of the telecoms network and a UK sovereign capability should be a part of that. I declare an interest: many provisions in the Bill deal with the regulator Ofcom, and my last telecommunications Thirdly, the Bill gives many new responsibilities and role was with Ofcom. I joined it in 2004 just a few weeks powers to Ofcom. That follows a vast expansion of after it was born, when it was to be a light-touch Ofcom’s remit over the past 10 years. We want to make regulator, small and nimble. As a consequence of my sure that Ofcom is appropriately resourced to carry out time in the sector, I have been calling for greater security, its duties and to be forward looking, not simply looking particularly for our mobile networks, since I first entered back. this place in 2010. One of the great failings of the Bill is that the The Labour party and I welcome the intention behind Government are so fixated on fighting the last battle—the the Bill, but a number of areas in it need to be addressed. Huawei battle—they are not looking to the future. That We are here today because of the Huawei debacle of the is, in part, because various Government Back-Bench Government’s making. The Government have been forced Members have very real concerns about the rise of 281 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 282

[Chi Onwurah] But I ask him: why does he not take this further? We need to ensure that we have a good understanding of China and its influence on our infrastructure. But these our national assets and so can assess emerging threats. concerns, however well justified, seem to be blinding the Doing so would have made Huawei’s dominance visible Government to threats that are not Chinese in origin. earlier and it would now enable warning signs of future We want to fix that. We want Ofcom to have the concerns—and there are future concerns. Again, resources and the will to monitor the evolution of our Emily Taylor said: telecoms networks, so that future threats, wherever they “I feel a little like we have been fetishising 5G and a single come from, can be identified and we do not find ourselves company for the last two years, perhaps at the expense of a more forced, as we are now, to make a huge change to our holistic awareness of systemic cyber-security risks… Healthcare networks, at a huge cost to our economy. systems probably would not have been top of the list two years ago, but now they are. The SolarWinds attack shows that the I turn to new clause 1. As I said in my opening remarks, identity of the vendor is not always the key risk point. SolarWinds I joined Ofcom in 2004 when it was in its infancy as a is a very trusted vendor from a like-minded, close ally country, slimline regulator. I kept a copy of the Communications and yet it turns out to be a critical single point of failure across Act 2003 on my desk. Since then, that Act has already key, very sensitive Government Departments, both in the US and doubled in size as Ofcom has acquired responsibility for the UK.––[Official Report, Telecommunications (Security) Public critical national infrastructure: the BBC; the Post Office; Bill Committee, 19 January 2021; c. 74, Q88.] online harms—that Bill is coming down the road; and, So I want the Minister to consider that in his response in this Bill, parts of national security as well. This latest on this proposal. expansion of Ofcom duties will necessarily add a strain not only to its budget, but to its resources. In January, in 2.45 pm response to my written question, the Government stated that Ofcom would have the resources that it needs to do I also ask the Minister to consider another very real the job, in which case the Minister should be keen to possibility. As our networks evolve, key functionality support new clause 1, which requires Ofcom to report moves from chips into software that will be running in on the adequacy of its resources in fulfilling its functions the cloud. Our cloud infrastructure is dominated by one under the amendments made in the Bill. vendor, Amazon Web Services, whose cloud services Ofcom lacks experience in national security measures— cross-subsidise the retail services we are more familiar this was discussed during the evidence stage—and the with and with which so many of our high street names expansion of duties will require the recruitment of are unable to compete. So in the near future it might be people with the required level of security clearance and that although we think we have three, or four, or five experience. That is not going to be easy, as we heard separate mobile 5G networks, they would all, in effect, during the evidence sessions. Emily Taylor of Oxford be running over one vendor, AWS. That would be a Information Labs said that Ofcom single point of failure were AWS to be bought by a hostile country or, as in the case of SolarWinds, even “will have to acquire a very specific set of skills and capabilities were it just to be hacked by a hostile operator, yet and that will require substantial investment and learning as an organisation”.––[Official Report, Telecommunications (Security) without this new clause I fail to see how the Bill would Public Bill Committee, 19 January 2021; c. 72, Q84.] ensure we had warning of that. There is no requirement These skills are rare. The memo from the Minister, on Ofcom to assess how each network provider, and for which I am grateful, sets out how Ofcom and the their supply chains, is evolving in its network architectures National Cyber Security Centre will work. While it is and the threat to our network security that follows. As welcome that they will work together, it did not provide is becoming a recurring theme with this Government’s the reassurance that we need. Indeed, it suggests that approach to telecoms security and elsewhere, including Ofcom will be entirely dependent on the NCSC for to online harms, they appear capable of recognising cyber skills and therefore,presumably,unable to understand a threat once it is here but incapable of putting in place the advice that it receives from the organisation. the infrastructure to anticipate threats and protect our citizens accordingly. New clause 1 is designed to address New clause 1 requires Ofcom to report annually on that. the adequacy of measures taken by network providers to comply with changes introduced in the Bill, empowering New clause 2 is designed to improve the Bill by the Government to track the effectiveness of the legislation. ensuring greater scrutiny, focus and transparency, and However, new clause 1 does more than that. It ensures addressing the deepening hole in accountability presented that Ofcom has the human and informational resources by the Government. As I have said, Labour have consistently to be forward looking. As I said, we are concerned that supported the need for this Bill. Our approach has been the Bill is backward looking and does not look to future to push for the change necessary to address security threats. New clause 1 requires Ofcom to provide an threats and, specifically, to allow the broad powers of assessment of emerging or future security risks based intervention that this Bill gives the Secretary of State, on its interrogation of network providers’ asset registers. while ensuring that those powers are overseen by Parliament. I am pleased that the Government are taking steps—as This Bill provides substantial powers on national I understand it from the Minister—to formalise existing security to the Department for Digital, Culture, Media best practice in the telecoms sector and ensure that and Sport, a Department that lacks expertise, experience national providers maintain asset registers. I can tell and understanding in matters of national security. New Members that that has not always been the case. As the clause 2 would ensure that the Intelligence and Security Minister said during the Committee stage, asset registers Committee was provided with information relating to a are an designated vendor direction, notification of contravention, “important part of the existing landscape”––[Official Report, urgent enforcement action or modifications to an existing Telecommunications (Security) Public Bill Committee, 21 January enforcement direction made on grounds of national 2021; c. 162.] security by the Secretary of State as soon as is reasonably 283 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 284 possible. During proceedings in this House and in the That is why, as new clause 3 sets out, we need a other place on the Bill that became the National Security reporting mechanism on network diversification, which and Investment Act 2021, we tried time and again to is not mentioned in the Bill at all. Government inaction ensure ISC oversight of national security issues, with is putting our national security at risk. As I said, the support from across the House and in the other place. 2019 telecoms supply chain review stated that there is The Government seem to have a blind spot here, and I “a lack of incentives to manage security risks to an appropriate hope the Minister will not put ideology before national level”. security today. The Bill does not address that fully. During the evidence In Committee, on 26 January, the Minister said that sessions, Emily Taylor stated that the Bill was very the ISC is the appropriate place to discuss matters of much national security and talked about the unique role it “at the stick end rather than the carrot end”. ––[Official Report, plays in assessing security implications, so I hope he is Telecommunications (Security) Public Bill Committee, 19 January not going to pretend that the occasional letter from 2021; c. 76, Q91.] himself to the ISC will provide the appropriate level of Dr David Cleevely was clear that debate. The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy did try that during the National “you need both carrot and stick on things like this.”––[Official Report, Telecommunications (Security) Public Bill Committee, Security and Investment Bill debate, but the Chair of 19 January 2021; c. 118, Q156.] the ISC, the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who I note is down to speak in this debate Yet so far we have seen no investment to support a as well, made short work of him. and I hope the diversified supply chain. The Opposition have argued telecommunications Minister will not follow in his footsteps. throughout the Bill’s passage that the sweeping powers that it affords to the Secretary of State and Ofcom must Most of the testimonies during the passage of both be put under proportionate scrutiny. In addition to the the National Security and Investment Act and this Bill scrutiny of the ISC, the new clause would enable that, have emphasised how national security threats are evolving, because it would bring about a debate in the House how the bad guys do not stand still, and how technology updating it on the progress to and barriers faced in is becoming more and more important in every sphere network diversification. The new clause would therefore of activity. Yet instead of responding, the Government provide accountability for the diversification strategy’s stick to the same old ways. I urge the Minister to accept progress and lead to real action, not just talk. new clause 2. We cannot have a secure network with only two On our new clause 3, on diversification, we believe service providers, and the removal of Huawei leaves the that it is right to remove high-risk vendors from the UK with, effectively, only two service providers. Reliance UK’s networks and enable Government to designate on two providers creates “an intolerable resilience risk”. vendors and require telecoms operators to comply with Those are not my words but the words of the Secretary security requirements. However, our networks will not of State. The chief technology officer of BT Group, the be secure if the supply chain is not diversified, as director of emerging technology at Ofcom and the former dependency is simply shifted to another point of failure. head of cyber-security at GCHQ all think that reliance New clause 3 would require that network diversification on only two providers presents a risk, yet the lack of a be reported on annually. The Government claimed to link between the diversification strategy implementation recognise this point, and indeed set up the telecoms and the security of our telecoms networks is an ongoing diversification taskforce over nine months ago. I have cause for concern. Now we have the opportunity to put voiced concerns that this taskforce does not represent that right. We need a diversified supply chain, and that our whole country, or even the telecoms sector, but I means diversity of supply at a different point in the welcome the report it published in April that identified supply chain and that different networks will not all the lack of joined-up thinking across Government as a share the same vulnerabilities of a particular supplier. potential barrier to diversification, with 20 different That is incredibly important for network resilience. initiativesacrossdifferentDepartmentsthatcouldcontribute to diversifying the sector but had no effective overall The new clause provides a reporting requirement that responsibility or accountability. I hope the Minister will is simply not there in the Bill, although the entire success address that in his comments. of the Bill depends on diversification. I hope that the Minister will take this opportunity to correct that. But the taskforce has yet to actually do anything, fund anything or get anything going. Nine months may Finally, I want to say a few words about the Scottish not be long in ministerial terms, although not all Ministers National party’s amendment 1. It requires the Secretary last that long, but it is an age in technological terms. If of State to consult leaders of the devolved nations when the taskforce is going to move at this glacial speed, then carrying out reviews or drafting reports required in the we will have a single supplier telecoms supply chain Bill. Given that telecoms is not a devolved issue, I would embedded in our telecoms infrastructure within the hope that consultation with the relevant Ministers of next five years. Answers to parliamentary questions I the devolved nations was a regular occurrence. Following have submitted show that none of the £250 million the success of the Government’s superfast allocated to the taskforce has been spent, or earmarked, Cymru project and the above-average level of fibre but we know there are small start-up suppliers in this connections to Welsh homes, I hope that the Government sphere desperate for funding. We have innovative small would listen closely to any advice offered them on businesses crying out for investment in Wales and the telecoms roll-out. north-east, to name just two centres of excellence, so The Labour party recognises that our telecoms networks where is the investment to secure the future of these will never be safe and secure unless every region and small businesses? Without it, the Government will not nation of the United Kingdom has a say in how we be able to achieve a diverse and resilient network. build out our networks. Under this Government, nine 285 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 286 of the 10 worst connected constituencies in the United economic prosperity with national security considerations. Kingdom are all in Scotland; if the Government ever This change of approach and the Bill itself are thoroughly wish to reach their broadband and 4G rural broadband good news from the perspective of the ISC. Both the connectivity targets, they must address connectivity Secretary of State and the Minister, my hon. Friend the blackspots in every nation. Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman), A fundamental characteristic of being part of our have been exemplary in reaching out to the ISC, and United Kingdom is that there is a pooling and sharing what I am about to say in no way reflects on them. of resource. Therefore, roll-out targets in the UK must The problem with this legislation lies not in what has apply to the whole of the UK—not just new Conservative been included in the Bill, but in what has been left out constituencies or those that have the Minister’s WhatsApp of it in terms of scrutiny. The Bill grants significant new details. The devolved nations should be consulted when powers to the Secretary of State to designate certain key infrastructural decisions are being made, so Labour vendors as high risk, and to direct telecoms providers to is pleased to support the amendment. abide by certain requirements about the use of equipment I will finish now by celebrating the potential of the from such designated vendors. When the Secretary of UK telecoms sector and the benefits that digital innovation State issues, varies or revokes a designation notice or a and effective government can provide to all our lives. If designated vendor direction, he will lay it before Parliament, the first industrial revolution was powered by engines, except when this would be contrary to national security. the fourth is driven digitally. The Bill is an opportunity That is entirely reasonable. None of us would want the to set in motion a bright future for British telecoms, Government to publish information that would damage creating an environment in which telecoms providers, national security; that would not be in the national including a sovereign UK capability, with the right interest. However, as in the case of the recent National subsequent Government support, can grow and thrive. Security and Investment Act 2021, it does mean that Unlocking the potential of 5G will not only vastly there is a significant gap in Parliament’s oversight of improve our connectivity and web experience but support these new powers. That should concern Members on new enabling technologies—from the internet of things both sides of the House. to artificial intelligence. But that will not happen by The logical solution would be for any designation accident; it requires political will. We must get this notices or designated vendor directions that cannot be right, and without oversight, diversification and an laid before Parliament for security reasons to be provided appropriately resourced regulator we cannot get it right. to the ISC, the body that was expressly created by As we all agree, our national security is priceless, but Parliament to scrutinise national security issues that until we see a detailed plan, a proper impact assessment cannot be laid before Parliament. As Members will and an industrial strategy, we in the Labour party will know, the ISC is the only Committee of Parliament that remain deeply concerned that the Government are not has regular access to protectively marked information prepared to make the interventions necessary to ensure that is highly classified for national security reasons. that our national security is safeguarded. I encourage Amendments to provide for such scrutiny were tabled in everyone to support our new clause and take the necessary Committee, but sadly, the Government did not support steps towards unlocking the UK’s digital potential. the principle behind them for reasons that are—I am sorry to say—entirely unpersuasive. Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): The shadow It is both puzzling and exasperating that the Government Minister is a considerable specialist in this field; I particularly are yet again refusing to use the Intelligence and Security endorse what she says about the importance of a non- Committee for the purpose for which it was created. As partisan approach to national security in this and I reminded the House on 26 April during consideration other legislation. As noted on Second Reading, the of Lords amendments to the National Security and Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament has Investment Bill, paragraph 8 of the memorandum of long been concerned about the security of the UK’s understanding between the Government and the ISC telecommunications networks. Our 2013 report “Foreign categorically asserts: Involvement in the Critical National Infrastructure” identified serious failings in the way that successive “The ISC is the only committee of Parliament that has regular Governments had managed the entry of foreign access to protectively marked information that is sensitive for national security reasons: this means that only the ISC is in a telecommunications companies into the UK market— position to scrutinise effectively the work of the Agencies and of Huawei especially—and we urged the Government not those parts of Departments”, to sacrifice security in the pursuit of investment when it came to our critical national infrastructure. such as the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, 3 pm “whose work is directly concerned with intelligence and security The Committee therefore welcomes this Bill, and the matters.” additional safeguards it provides. In presenting it on New clause 2, tabled by the Opposition, would fix the Second Reading, the Secretary of State assured the problem in this instance, but there is no sign of the House: Government’s being willing to accept it. I regret that: we “We are clear-eyed about putting national security first. If should not be knowingly passing legislation that has national security and economic interests are in conflict with each holes in it. The Government should not be creating new other,national security comes first.”—[Official Report, 30 November powers, or new units within Departments—as in the 2020; Vol. 685, c. 74.] case of the National Security and Investment Act—without That was a considerable advance on the coalition’s providing for effective parliamentary oversight of them. complacent response to our CNI report, which committed As previously explained in considerable detail on 26 April, the then Government to do no more than “balance” it is a physical impossibility for departmental Select 287 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 288

Committees to fulfil that role, lacking as they do STRAP- In real terms this is not a new thing. We are all aware, I indoctrinated and cleared staff and secure facilities, hope, of the ISC report from 2013 on that very matter, even if individual members may—very occasionally—be and Huawei, and its role within our infrastructure, did shown something classified. not necessarily come as a surprise to anyone. I read the Neither do assurances by the Government that the Bill’s Second Reading with much interest. The Labour ISC is welcome to ask for information related to its party was trying extremely hard to absolve itself of any remit from non-traditional national security Departments, blame in that regard, which made for light entertainment such as BEIS, or in this case DCMS, offer any comfort. over the past evenings. Of course, the Government are During the passage of the National Security and Investment just as complicit in that regard, and complicit with a Bill, Ministers repeatedly emphasised that small c, because they were not necessarily looking at things with the view that they have now. “there are no restrictions on the ISC requesting further information from the unit″, From my experience in this House, the Government in that case the BEIS investment and security unit, have not covered themselves in glory when it comes to this topic. When I came into this place in 2019, one of “or the Secretary of State where it falls under the remit of that the first key issues that was talked about—aside from Committee.”––[Official Report, National Security and Investment Public Bill Committee, 26 April 2021; c. 166.] Brexit, of course—was Huawei’s role within the UK, and we have seen the Government flip-flop from one However, when we recently did precisely that and asked view to another. It is testament to the hard work of BEIS for information related directly to our remit, we many Government Members that they got the Government received a response that was so dismissive as to border to realise just how serious this topic is and, indeed, was on the contemptuous. in years gone by. The ISC was created by Parliament to oversee national Although there are concerns, the only thing that has security matters on its behalf. It should not be for the really changed in the manyyears since 2013 is the seriousness Government to deny Parliament’s intent. Paragraph 8 with which the Government are treating this matter, and of our memorandum of understanding with the Prime that seriousness extends to my colleagues and me. As my Minister explicitly confirmed that that oversight extends to hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) “those parts of Departments whose work is directly concerned made clear on Second Reading and in Committee, we with intelligence and security matters.” are supportive of the Government’s efforts in this regard, If information relating to the use of the powers in the as we were with the National Security and Investment Bill cannot be laid before Parliament for reasons of Bill, but there are a couple of areas where the Government national security, that information must surely be given still need to provide a level of assurance. Notwithstanding to the ISC to scrutinise. Nevertheless, because the Bill is the remarks that have rightly been made in relation to good legislation for which we have consistently called, scrutiny by the ISC, importantly we need to be clear that the Committee will certainly not seek to impede its the Government are going to pick up the tab in Scotland progress. for all the equipment that will now be made surplus to The National Security and Investment Act would have requirements. We cannot have a situation where that is been lost entirely at the end of the last Session if the not the case, because it is their actions that have led to the upper House had insisted once again on our amendments situation we are in. We also need to ensure that the providing for proper ISC scrutiny. We were not then, and replacement strategy is both safe and secure, so that we we are not now, in the business of seeking to scupper do not find ourselves in a situation such as this ever again. legislation that helps to safeguard our national security, Notwithstanding the justified security concerns that but that does not mean that this serious scrutiny gap we all have, perhaps the key thing lies in and around the can be left unresolved. In our forthcoming annual report, issue of telecommunications. As was referenced by the we shall therefore ask the Prime Minister to agree an shadow Minister, although not in the same detail, there update to the ISC’s memorandum of understanding, in are around 1 million people in rural Scotland who do order for it explicitly to include oversight of these not even have access to 4G. Of course, telecommunications matters. I trust that by the time we lay our report before is reserved to the UK Government—it is the responsibility the House, we shall finally be able to announce a of the Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, positive outcome. Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman), and he will be cognisant of Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): It is a pleasure, the fact that the 4G roll-out has not been as good as it once again, to follow the Chair of the ISC, the right should be. We all want to see the 5G roll-out, to ensure hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), as I did that we are in as advanced a position as possible, but we during the passage of the National Security and Investment must ensure that the same mistakes are not repeated. I Bill. He speaks with great wisdom and experience on would certainly welcome assurances from the Minister these matters, and the Minister would do well to heed in that regard. such advice from his Back Benches. It is also a pleasure That leads me to the SNP’s amendment 1, which to follow the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for seeks to ensure that the Government consult in full with Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah), who also the Governments in Scotland, Wales and Northern speaks with great experience in this field. I have been Ireland. It is vital that we have that link and that, while fortunate enough to sit on a number of Bill Committees we remain a part of the United Kingdom, the UK with her, and it is clear that telecommunications is very Government work in partnership with the Scottish much her forte. Government on such serious matters. Let us consider the Bill in a wider context, before I It will come as no surprise to the Minister that we are drill down on the new clauses. We are essentially looking supportive of the new clauses tabled by Labour on ensuring at foreign investment in our critical, national infrastructure. that there is diversification, that there is parliamentary 289 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 290

[Stephen Flynn] speak to the principles of that particular amendment, if you do not mind, Madam Deputy Speaker—even though oversight and scrutiny, and that the ISC plays a key it was not selected, it is here in spirit. Amendment 3 role. I would like to hear from its Members that they would essentially have required the Secretary of State to are equally supportive of the view that the make a designated vendor direction for any firm that devolved Administrations should play a key role in was required to hand over its data to the Government telecommunications. or intelligence services of a foreign country. I wanted to be specific about that—using what was already in the Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Bill to force the Government to go a little bit further— Green) (Con): It is always a pleasure to return to old because I think it is necessary. arguments and ensure that they are still live, and I intend That specificity is necessary because right now we are to do just that. From the beginning, I have supported facing a number of particular threats. There are a lot of the process and initiative taken by the Government; it hidden threats behind the idea that companies, particularly was not without struggles early on. I do not intend to go from China, are independent of their Government. into the details, but I will refer to them. Back in 2019 and That is simply not the case. I cannot think of a single early 2020, it became quite a battle over whose advice company registered in China—not Hong Kong, but was better. It seemed to me at the time—and, in a way, I China—that is not somehow linked directly to, or indirectly do not blame the Government for this—that the National to but none the less under the control of, the Chinese Cyber Security Centre gave the Government poor advice Government. about the security risk, which was tempered by the Government’s need to go ahead and get 5G moving. It is worth repeating article 14 of China’s 2017 national intelligence law, which obliges all firms to give the That is always the problem that we face. If organisations Government assistance in areas of intelligence and national are to give Government advice on security risks, it must security if requested. This quote is a translation, so it be completely separated on the basis that that is their may be slightly modified, but it may be useful. Article 14 advice; they must not temper it to suit the Government. states: We have seen that happen all the way through—it is not just this particular Government. They have made the “state intelligence work organs, when legally carrying forth intelligence right decision, and I will come back to that, but if we go work, may demand that concerned organs, organisations, or back, this has happened also with Labour Governments citizens provide needed support, assistance, and cooperation.” and Conservative Governments of the past. Successive That is critical, because it requires those organisations Governments have underestimated the growing risk to do whatever is required of them with regards to data that is coming particularly from China, but also from transfer. It is peculiar in a way, and it would be peculiar other countries. They were already aware of the risk even if it was dealing with Russia, but the fact is that it from Russia. relates to China, which has a very much larger commercial base in all of these areas. 3.15 pm It is interesting to look back. Had other Governments, I agree with the reference that my right hon. Friend going back, further recognised the nature of what was the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis)—it is going on, they would have seen that there is a strategic always a pleasure to be in the same debate as him—made plan from the Chinese Communist party to dominate to the ISC’s ability to scrutinise. I have a huge amount key commercial areas. For example, they own 85% of of time for him, as he knows, and we have debated some rare earth materials. Rare earth materials, as was said of this ad nauseam, but I do say to him that I think the the other day, are the oil of the 21st century, without Government will have to come back to this process. which we simply will not be able to operate. However, There is no question but that the parliamentary scrutiny China does not stop there; it also owns the lion’s share process through his Committee—the ISC—will add of the world’s processing capability. value and strengthen Government legislation going forward. China strategically looks ahead. In telecommunications, Even if the Government do not want to accept new we had 10 to 15 companies globally engaged in this area clause 2, I hope they will come back to this issue in about 12 years ago, one of which was Marconi here in principle and use the Committee. That can only strengthen the UK. Today there are only three non-Chinese companies the provisions and counterbalance pressures that may in existence that can build a 5G system. Not one of exist from companies outside. them, by the way, is in the United States; that tells us I agree that the Bill requires our support. Its main exactly how that market has been infiltrated and destroyed. aims include strengthening the security and resilience of People talked about market failure when we discussed the UK’s telecommunications infrastructure—that goes the Huawei Bill. It was not market failure; it was the without saying, and all these struggles over Huawei fact that a Government, with their institutions, had set were just part of that process; giving stronger powers to out strategically to destroy a market and dominate it. the Secretary of State and Ofcom to enforce the new That was one of the excuses used by my Government—that duties on telecoms providers to increase the security is, that we had no other option and had to go for what and resilience of their networks, which is also critical; was there in the marketplace. Well, that has now changed, and giving new national security powers to the Secretary and I am pleased about that. of State to impose restrictions on telecoms providers, The amendment was necessary because, lying behind which I want to come back to. Those restrictions relate all this, is the real key, which is that these companies are to the equipment from high-risk vendors. not free and do not protect data in the way in which we I and some of my right hon. and hon. Friends tabled would expect. Huawei is not alone, by the way. It is just amendment 3, which I had hoped to be coming here to one company, but there are lots of others—for example, debate, but clearly it was not selected. However, I will ByteDance, which owns TikTok. I really question the 291 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 292 degree to which that company owns that data now and I note also that the European Union was heading in is able to use it, and that is data on many people, the same direction with its agreement, only now, because particularly of our younger generation. of the sanctions on its MEPs and so on, it has decided The requirements of the national intelligence law that it is not going to do that. I simply raise the apply not just to Huawei and company, because those question: if we think that this country and this Government companies dominate the process that they are engaged —the Chinese Communist party, the Government of in through dominating the data and through their use China—are such a potential threat, should we really be of that data, which is critical. I am pleased that, through trying to reopen those doors, despite the sanctions that this Bill, the Government are now demonstrating that we have in place, the sanctions that they have put in they have absolutely got the point. I give credit to my place, and the very clear threat that they now pose to hon. Friend the Minister, who has been honest and our security? straight from the beginning of this process about his I simply say to my hon. Friend the Minister that I was recognition of this particular problem. going to move my amendment, which would have said Although that it now the case, we are but stepping that the Government should immediately declare many tentatively in the direction of understanding these issues. of these companies high-risk vendors by the very nature I think the Trade Minister in the other place said that of the security law that exists in China. However, I this Government were still determined to pursue deeper would also say, in support of what has been said already, bilateral trade with China, while sanctions against many that the Government need to use the internal possibilities of our parliamentarians—myself included, but there in our Parliament. We have a Committee that is cleared are others here now—are in place. We kind of put that to the highest level of security in these areas, and it is to one side and think that we can go ahead with trying important that we use that Committee. If the Government to make these deeper relations with China, notwithstanding get private advice from the Committee about what it the fact that we also recognise that it is a remarkable thinks is going wrong with their position, I think that threat. I simply do not understand how we square those will benefit and improve them. two things and get on with it. [Interruption.] Does my I therefore ask my hon. Friend to take my amendment hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Ms Ghani) wish into consideration and to answer that point, to think to intervene? seriously about how we can strengthen the Bill further and, if he can, to make the reservations of this place felt Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con): No, but I will to his colleagues in Government. Weare deeply concerned never waste an opportunity, as it is obviously a joy to about trying to ride two bicycles at the same time: intervene on my right hon. Friend, who was asking how recognising a deep and growing threat to democracy much deeper our relationship can go with a country not just here but around the world from the Chinese that has sanctioned parliamentarians in this House for Communist party, while trying to beg China to do trade basically raising human rights abuses and security concerns. deals with us, notwithstanding the fact that it behaves Sir Iain Duncan Smith: I am getting so used to just so badly. doing what I am told by my hon. Friend when it is necessary that she only has to look in this direction and Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) I give way to her—my apologies. (LD) [V]: It is a pleasure to join you, Madam Deputy What I was really trying to get to the bottom of is Speaker, from the far north of Scotland. Before I make that I do not think that this is feasible any longer. The two points that will be familiar to the House, may I Bill illustrates the dichotomy that lies at the heart of the compliment the right hon. Member for Chingford and Government’s position. We are trying constantly to talk Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) on a most about these trade relationships, but at the same time we interesting speech? I afford myself a wry smile; we are recognise that the country that we are discussing them where we are today, which is rather different from where with is a totalitarian state that is guilty of what many, we were when I attended the Hall debate in including myself, believe is a genocide of a whole ethnic which he made the same point. I think that he would be group—more than one ethnic group. It is a state that is allowed some quiet satisfaction at having changed the intolerant, that is suppressing democracy and free speech Government’scourse as significantly as he has, because—I in Hong Kong, that is threatening Taiwan and India, shall return to this point—this is about the defence of and that has said that it is in possession of the South China the realm. sea. I could go on with that list. We can recognise the Let me make a second initial remark, with reference to compilation of all those things and that there is a security the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn). risk, and yet at the same time in the other place we are As a former Member of a place based in Holyrood, in told, “Don’t worry. We are still trying to do trade deals.” , I wholeheartedly support the notion of It is quite interesting that we have reopened an economic working with the devolved Administrations. It makes and financial dialogue under a JETCO—a joint economic absolute sense. If we believe in the security of the realm, and trade committee—which was originally paused because we all have to work together for the better good. of the imposition of the national security law in Hong As I have said already, my two points will be familiar Kong. The discussions have now restarted, although we to the House. The first is that, having done the armed did not hear much fanfare. We sort of discovered that forces scheme, I know it is very useful in bringing elected they had restarted, but there was no announcement Members face to face with the realities of the defence of from the Dispatch Box that we were restarting them. this country. For me, it was something of a wake-up There are no dates involved, but the discussions are call. There is no doubt, as the right hon. Member for restarting, despite the sanctions against individuals and Chingford and Woodford Green said, that there are so on, and despite our sanctions against Chinese officials— nations out there—Russia, China, North Korea and although I still wish that we could do more. others—that do not concern themselves with the good 293 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 294

[Jamie Stone] Committee is absolutely correct. Parliament does have a role to play and I very much hope that the right hon. health of the United Kingdom. We have only to look at Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) and his Committee the hijacking of the Ryanair airliner in recent days, or will have a role to play in future. indeed the crime that was committed in Salisbury, to see that the actions of states can be very bad indeed for us Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con): It is an honour to as a country, so in some ways this whole debate is a bit contribute to this measured debate, Madam Deputy of a wake-up call. We have to ask ourselves where we Speaker. I am fearful of lowering the tone, but I have stand in the world, what we can do and whether we are been speaking to the Minister—I congratulate him on going to stand up for what we believe is right. the amount of communication he has had with us Back The Bill has the support of my party, in that it helps Benchers about our concerns—and when I was thinking to protect the vital interests of the United Kingdom about how best I could sum up our dialogue, I recalled and the people who live in and love our country, as we that Ronald Reagan once said: all do. The key point emerging from that is that, as “The…most terrifying words in the English language are: I’m others have said, there will have to be an element of from the Government, and I’m here to help.” co-operation with other countries that share our ideals and interests. We think of the Five Eyes countries, of I think that, for a Minister, the most terrifying words our European friends and of other countries all over are: “I’m a Back Bencher and I really am just here to the globe—perhaps India, perhaps South Korea, perhaps help”. So without our removing the momentum, we Japan—that we could work with more closely to further really are here to help. the best interests of us all. First, I need to put on record my thanks to my right My second point—yes, I am going to talk about this hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford yet again, so perhaps I should offer an apology to the Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) for tabling the amendment, Chamber—is on something that the hon. Member for which, unfortunately, was not selected today. I also put Aberdeen South referred to: we talk about 5G in the on record my support for what my right hon. Friend the UK, but there are parts of Scotland that do not have 4G. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) has proposed, As the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Newcastle with the support and expertise that he can bring to the upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah), said, there are bits debate and legislation, and I hope that the Minister can of Scotland where connectivity is very poor indeed. In reflect on both those opportunities down the line. There the past, I have made the perhaps not very clever joke is much to welcome in the Bill, but I fear that technology that in parts of my constituency, we might even be can sometimes move faster than we can legislate in this better off with two tin cans and a length of string, so country. I want to touch on two issues: one is national there is a lot of work to be done, to say the least. security and the other is resilience and diversifying our supply chain. 3.30 pm I will start by being very helpful as a Back Bencher. I know that the Minister may have cast his eyes on a Perhaps I can make the point this way: as we come report that I recently produced for NATO. I sit on the out of covid—thank God that is where we are going—we Science and Technology Committee and I was tasked to will see a tourism boost in the United Kingdom, but if put together a report on science and technology threats, the tourism providers in my constituency and remote looking particularly at east Asia. In the report, there is a parts of Scotland are to compete on a level playing puff box that he may want to reflect on; it talks about field, surely they have to have the connectivity that is South Korea and the amount of work that it has done enjoyed by other businesses in other parts of the United in innovating and developing new technology so that it Kingdom. That is one argument. Secondly, and sadly, is truly resilient in its national 5G infrastructure. I there will be another pandemic one day. One of the believe that 85 cities will have coverage by the end of means by which we can beat off the pandemic is by 2021, and they are not reliant on any external Government being very clever indeed, and when it comes to the to provide them with that service, so I urge him to go provision of NHS services and so on, connectivity has a away and look at what South Korea is doing and part to play in that as well in my constituency. I will rest possibly see how we can become more resilient in this my case there, but I believe that whatever the United country. Kingdom Government can do to work with the devolved Government in Scotland to get proper connectivity in I want to raise the subject of resilience and security my constituency and other parts—we have very few Gs because I sit on the Business, Energy and Industrial at all in some parts—and to get up to 5G would be so Strategy Committee and we have been undertaking a welcome and so important to my constituents. report on links back to Xinjiang. However, companies I will end with a point that the shadow Minister also gave evidence to us that should cause some concern made. I very much agree with the notion that Ofcom for the Minister,and with regard to this piece of legislation. will face considerable strain. This is about confronting This is basically about companies headquartered in the known hostile nations, but this is a changing world—it China that have access to data we are using or manipulating, is changing ever more rapidly—and new threats and and to algorithms we are creating here in the UK. new challenges will emerge. Ofcom will have to be very In particular, I want to reflect on the evidence given nimble on its feet to deal with that, and that will require to the Select Committee from TikTok. We invited TikTok the necessary resources, so we look forward to seeing to come in and give evidence about its algorithms and what the Government’s reply will be on that front. whether it is distorting them to stop information about Essentially,this debate has been an example of Parliament Xinjiang and Uyghur being out on the platform. changing the mind of a Government. The point that Unfortunately, the more we dug into TikTok, the more has been made about the Intelligence and Security complex and concerning it got for us. 295 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 296

TikTok is a media company and a platform. Most it wishes to work with. I fear that, unless we put down a kids will have access to it, and most people here may marker, we are going to lose out to a country such as have access to it as well. However, it has a very complex China, and I hope that the Minister can comment on ownership structure, which is why it is important that it that when he comes to the Dispatch Box at the end of is reflected somewhere in the Telecommunications (Security) the debate. Bill. It is important because TikTok is a subsidiary of a global parent company, ByteDance Ltd, which is Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to incorporated in the Cayman Islands, but there is a speak in this debate and to follow all the right hon. and China-based subsidiary of the same global parent company hon. Members who have made contributions. called ByteDance (HK) Ltd. First, new clause 1 is designed to ensure that there is The reason why this should be of some concern is an obligation on Ofcom, in legislation, to report on the that when we took evidence from TikTok UK’s branch, adequacy of its resources and assess the adequacy of we were told that ByteDance could in no way have the measures taken annually by telecommunications access to UK data and that the two things were completely providers to comply with their duty to take the necessary separate. However, the problem is that we can legislate security measures. The hon. Member for Wealden in this country for what we want to do to keep our (Ms Ghani) referred to security, and I will speak briefly country and our people’s data safe, but when a company about that shortly. It also requires Ofcom to assess we are working with has headquarters in China, it has future areas of security risk based on its interrogation to abide by completely separate sets of rules and regulations, of network providers’ asset registries. That does seem so we end up in a two-tier system. to me to be standard, but it is essential that there is regulation and control of these providers, on which so Let me just reflect on what a company such as many of us—indeed, probably all of us—rely so heavily. ByteDance has to adhere to. I am talking about China’s The Minister may well believe that this obligation is National Intelligence Law 2017. My right hon. Friend already included in the Government’s Bill, and if that is the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green spoke the case, perhaps he will confirm that that is the position. about article 9, and I want to reflect on article 7. It If that is the case, I am sure that that will highlighted states, and this has been translated into English so it subsequently. may not be perfect: I have seen, during the privatisation of water services “Any organization or citizen shall, in accordance with the law”— and other public bodies, that private companies have the Chinese National Intelligence Law 2017— little desire to provide any more information than is “support, provide assistance and cooperate in national intelligence legally required. They just give us the basics of what work, and guard the secrecy of any national intelligence work they want us to know. I believe that there is an obligation they are aware of.” for Ofcom to actively regulate, and to do this we must Fundamentally, companies have to hand over data when provide adequate funding. To make this happen, is it a they are asked, but when they are asked by another funding issue or can we legislate to ensure that they tell Government—say, our Government—they have to deny us all we need to know? I will consider the words of the that they are doing it. I am concerned about how robust Minister on this imperative regulatory function. our legislation is today or how robust our legislation I want to echo the concerns of the hon. Member for will be going forward if companies are abiding by Wealden, who comprehensively addressed the issues separate sets of intelligence laws based in China. that concern us all. She referred to companies that have their headquarters in China and how that impacts on us On a similar theme, let us take a closer look at here in the United Kingdom. Our duty in this House is Hikvision in particular. There was a very good recent to our citizens: to the citizens of Strangford, to the citizens report by Reuters, which basically states that half of of Wealden and to everyone across the whole of the London councils are using Hikvision, even though United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Hikvision is banned in the United States. Last week, and we probably all seek assurances on these matters.Again Italian media reported that Hikvision equipment in the I look to the Minister to do that in his summing up. country was “communicating with servers” in China despite being on a supposedly closed network. I am not New clause 2 relates to the provision of information quite sure what “communicating with servers” means, to the Intelligence and Security Committee. Does the but for me alarm bells are ringing. Minister agree that it is imperative that the appropriate Committees have the right information on security matters? The points I want to land with the Minister are: how I am a firm believer in the need for information share. It robust is the legislation we have in place for today, let has always been my policy to ensure that those around alone tomorrow,and how can we ensure that the processes me in my political life, my social life and my personal to legislate in this country keep pace with the threats we life are aware of all the issues that concern them. It is are facing? I suppose the fundamental point is that also important that MPs have all the information on China has its own National Intelligence Law, which board. I am also a firm believer in the chain of command. completely contradicts what we are trying to do here in This may well be due to years of part-time service in the UK. Does the Minister have any thoughts about uniform; I spent 14 years as a part-time soldier. It is how we can ensure that our security is not undermined really important that the chain of command is in place. by China’s National Intelligence Law? What guarantees However, there are also times when it is in the interests can the Government give to constantly look at, review of the nation that not all is revealed, and there will be a and update this, and also to hold to account the companies reason for some things being classified as top level only. we may be anxious about? I understand that; I often ask the police about things We seem to be setting up a two-tier system: one for us that have happened back home, and I say, “Don’t tell in the west with the countries we work with, and a me anything I don’t need to know, but if you can tell completely separate system for China and the companies me, and I can tell others, let me know that.” 297 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 298

[Jim Shannon] North Korea and Iran have been recorded in recent times. The Bill will also provide new national security Our job as parliamentarians is to scrutinise the powers to issue directions to telecoms providers to Government, to hold Ministers to account and to strive manage the risks of high-risk vendors. Incidentally, that for the good of the nation, and I ask the Minister to extends beyond the existing restrictions—which in essence clarify why the Government do not feel that new clause 2 relate to the most significant parts of systems and the is necessary. Does he, for instance, believe that this is most sensitive areas—to all goods, services and facilities. already accounted for? If it is, perhaps he could tell us Just as there should no longer be any doubt about the position on that. I would like to understand the the damage done by lazy liberal assumptions about rationale behind withholding information from a regulated globalisation, there must be no complacency about the Committee and what constitutes high-level information virtues of the suppliers of telecoms, hardware, software that should be withheld. Again I look to the Minister, and services, or those who manage them. That they can as I often do in debates in this House, for a response to themselves provide a threat to the way we communicate, satisfy me that new clause 2 is not needed. to our infrastructure and to all that we now do in our My final point relates to amendment 1 to clause 14, country is without doubt. Indeed, I would go so far as which proposes: to say that the unaccountable power of corporate “The Secretary of State must, in the process of carrying out monopolies is one of the most sinister features of the reviews and drafting subsequent reports, consult the appropriate way we now live. That is not just my view; it is the view ministers from the devolved governments.” of the chief of MI5, who recently said that Facebook As a Member of Parliament, I have always wished to had given terrorists a “free pass” by allowing stronger know what the devolved Administrations are doing. In encryption on its network. Mr McCallum said that my case, that relates to the Northern Ireland Assembly. social media giants’ plan to install end-to-end encryption When I saw the amendments and new clauses, I assumed would block hundreds of counter-terrorism investigations that this provision would have been included as a matter by the security service. He said: of course. Surely it is a matter of the greatest importance— “If you have end-to-end default encryption with absolutely no especially in Northern Ireland, which is fast becoming means of unwrapping that encryption, you are in effect giving the capital of Europe’s cyber- security—that the devolved those rare people—terrorists or people who are organising child Administrations, and in this case the Northern Ireland sexual abuse online…a free pass where they know that nobody Assembly, should have a full understanding of any can see into what they are doing in those private living rooms.” emerging cases. I say with great respect to everyone else The effects of what Facebook are doing—I suspect in this Chamber that the cyber sector in Northern they will do still more of it—will inhibit the powers of Ireland is leaps and bounds ahead of other parts of the those that we mission to keep us safe. It is as simple as United Kingdom. Maybe only the south-east of England that, so let us have no naivety or complacency about can match our level of advancement. We have incredible what those organisations are about or their willingness skills and staff available in Northern Ireland, and the to act responsibly. Neil Basu, the National Police Chiefs’ cyber-security sector has grown greatly. So can the Council lead on counter-terrorism, echoed those sentiments. Minister reference the mechanism by which this information He said that if Facebook pressed ahead with its plans, it share can take place without any amendment? Can the would “put privacy before security”. While Mr Basu Minister confirm that the Northern Ireland Assembly might be confused about the institutionalised racism of will have a key role to play in this, and tell us how that the Metropolitan police, he is not confused about this—he will work within the legislation before us today? is absolutely right. The reality of hostile state cyber-activity is beyond Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) doubt. For example, in 2018, the Chinese APT10 group (Con): Chillingly, the head of military intelligence attack on global networks, also known as Cloud Hopper, recently concluded that the difference between being at targeted a range of companies, including in the aerospace, war and being at peace is becoming increasingly defence, telecommunications, professional services and blurred. In short, Britain is under perpetual attack. utilities sectors and many others. It was one of the most significant and widespread cyber-intrusions against the 3.45 pm UK and allies uncovered to date, targeting trade secrets Every day, every week, there are attempts to break or and economies around the whole world. I could cite breach the information and communications systems many similar examples, but I think the case has already on which so much depends. The fragility of the modern been made by other contributors to the debate, particularly world, as the resilience provided by the eclecticism of local my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and and national means of gathering, storing and exchanging Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith). information has been eroded by global interdependence The pressing need for the Government, as well as and, in particular, by technological interoperability, has ensuring that safeguards are in place, is—as their own left us more vulnerable to attack from hostile state supply chain review acknowledges—to diversify the actors or, indeed, other groups—serious and organised suppliers in the market. The Government have concluded criminals. So, the need for safeguards that guarantee that the only way to address the risk is to introduce our security could not be more pressing or clear. national security powers to allow them to In that spirit and to that end, this legislation is very “intervene to set the conditions necessary, including by imposing welcome. The Bill strengthens the security framework limits and controls on the use of high risk vendors, so that used for 5G and full-fibre networks. It will protect the operators can manage the risk.” UK from hostile state cyber-activity and other activity It is also important to acknowledge that without an of that kind, and we need protection, because we know effective diversification strategy in place, we will not from the evidence that attacks from Russia, China, have a secure network. As the ISC highlighted in July 2019, 299 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 300 the diversification strategy is therefore the most critical practice. The responsibilities to ensure that providers action to ensure our security now and for the future. comply with the new security duties will, as I said, The issue of national dependence goes beyond high-risk require a step change in what Ofcom does, given that it vendors. I hope that when the Minister winds up he will will now have the authority to practically assess the say more about diversification, because our most pressing security practices of large telecom providers, take action requirement is not to allow ourselves to become dependent where security is at risk of being compromised, and on single vendors; the case has already been made make information available to the Government and about the existing vulnerability that Britain endures in provide annual security reports to Ministers. that regard. That brings me to the issue of scrutiny, which has been addressed with by various contributors to the Dr Julian Lewis rose— debate so far. Given Ofcom’s new powers, the means by which it can be held to account becomes salient. Of Sir John Hayes: I give way to the Chairman of course, Ofcom is accountable to Ministers, but we need the ISC. Ministers to be accountable, in an effective way, to this House. There is a long debate to be had about the role Dr Lewis: In support of what my right hon. Friend of various Select Committees in that regard, and it is a says, he will recall that one of the main reasons why the debate to which I have contributed previously and the Government felt it so difficult to rid themselves of Chairman of the ISC, my right hon. Friend the Member Huawei was that there would then be only two remaining for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), has already spoken possible suppliers, and if one of them got into difficulty, eloquently. I simply say to the Minister that there needs we would have total dependence on a single supplier. If to be a well-established and rigorous process by which we do not diversify, it really has knock-on effects: we the new powers can be assessed and checked not only by sometimes have to improperly consider using suppliers Ministers of the Crown but by those to whom Ministers that are really a risk to our security. of the Crown are accountable. Confusing accountability and scrutiny risks weakening both by obscuring the first Sir John Hayes: As my right hon. Friend knows, it is and diluting the second. not only the Committee on which he and I serve that I know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you would not want has highlighted that point; other Committees of this me to conclude any speech without some literary reference. House have, too, and the Government themselves have C. S. Lewis said: “Experience: that most brutal of acknowledged it. We really need to look at how, having teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn.” The accepted the thrust of his argument, the Government experience that I have had over 25 years in the House—of intend to respond. What is the action plan? I know that being a shadow Minister trying to hold Ministers to the Minister will have much to say about this, but my account, a Minister being held to account and now a right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Back Bencher trying hold both to account—is that This is part of a wider problem of the concentration unless the process is right, scrutiny simply will not be of power in the hands of what I described earlier as a effective. handful of unaccountable corporate monopolies. There I have talked about vulnerability and the recognition is a curious assumption that somehow those organisations of the need for greater regulation. By the way, if anything, will be intrinsically virtuous, but that is simply not the the Bill does too little. It is a good Bill and it does a case. Commercial organisations are just that: they are great deal that I welcome, but over time we probably interested in commerce. They are not there to do what need to go further. I have previously drawn the House’s Governments and this Parliament exist for, which is attention to the history of legislation affecting security protecting the interests of the whole of the people. here: it has typically been periodic with few big Bills having been brought to the House that became Acts Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): One thing that worries concerning matters of security. But I repeat what I have me a little is that Huawei is Chinese-owned. Nokia and said before: I suspect that over the coming years we will Ericsson are not, but they get a lot of their kit from have more and more legislation to ensure that our China, so they are not pure either. That is a worry for country remains secure, given the dynamism and character diversification. of the threats we now face.

Sir John Hayes: It is. I referred a moment or two ago I end simply with this. The Bill is good work, but it to the provisions of the Bill that extend existing powers is—if I might put it as generously as I possibly can to to take account of supply chains, so the point is the Minister—work in progress, and I hope that during acknowledged in the legislation. It brings me neatly—it that progress we see further attention given to the issues was not scripted, I hasten to add—to the next part of of both diversity in the marketplace and scrutiny by this my speech, because in that process much powerful House. A fundamental requirement of Government is regulation is put into the hands of Ofcom. I have to protect our infrastructure and economy and, by questions about that for the Minister as this is not doing so, protect our people, for in doing that we territory that traditionally Ofcom has navigated. It will protect all our futures. require a step change in Ofcom’s capability and approach to manage the additional responsibilities. Bob Stewart: It is a real pleasure to follow some of Ofcom was previously responsible solely for assuring the speeches we have heard, particularly those from the the resilience of networks. No list of mandatory standards Chairman of the ISC, my right hon. Friend the Member has previously existed and historically Ofcom produced for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), and from my right hon. guidance that merely directed communication service Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green providers towards the main source of advice and best (Sir Iain Duncan Smith). 301 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 302

[Bob Stewart] in Norman Shaw—[Interruption.] Sorry,I meant Portcullis House—I have only been here 11 years. A room with I rise to support the Government, but I do so with clearance would be required even for us to be able to some reservations, which largely reflect concerns that I look these documents, store them or discuss them. I do still have as a member of the Intelligence and Security not think it is a secret that the ISC cannot meet here—we Committee. I am concerned about oversight and the have to meet somewhere else. We go to a place that is scrutiny of decisions made by the Department for Digital, accredited and checked, where documents can be stored Culture, Media and Sport that will have an impact on and to which our Clerks have ready and easy access. All national security. The issue is growing as commercial discussions concerning such a level of security take companies get more and more involved in such matters. place in that room. We are not allowed to write something The Government’s current view is that DCMS, Ofcom down and walk it out—everything has to be left there, and the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee unless it is specifically on a certain kind of paper and we could probably watch over these matters. Yes, they are informed of that very strictly. probably can, but I am not so sure. The product of ISC investigations can be laid before Parliament only after a redaction process with the 4 pm intelligence agencies and confirmation from the Prime The Bill says that when a Secretary of State issues, Minister that nothing in them might breach national varies or revokes a designation notice or a designator security, so I think it would be rather difficult for the vendor direction, he or she will lay that before Parliament— DCMS, Ofcom or the Digital, Culture, Media and good, so far—except in cases when that would be Sport Committee to be able to oversee top secret material “contrary to the interests of national security” produced by the Department and still obey national or when there were details prejudicial to commercial security rules. In short, we parliamentarians might not interests. Those might be excluded from documents laid have oversight of some key decisions made by Ofcom before Parliament. What? That could mean that we and DCMS. That can work—I have no doubt the parliamentarians had no oversight whatever of such Minister will say that—but we could be blindsided. The activities. Are we really going to be debarred from such Government think otherwise at this stage, and I am knowledge? prepared to accept that promise, but this might quickly I wish now to highlight a few of the problems that I run into difficulties when classified material has to be foresee—not just because I am a member of the ISC but examined by people from Parliament who are specially because I have handled highly classified information in selected to do it. the past. As we have heard, the Committee of Parliament In summary, I repeat that I will be supporting the that has regular access to top secret—and above— Minister—of course I will, as I am loyal, just like a information is the Intelligence and Security Committee. dog—but it does not stop me raising a flag of concern. Its members are subject to section 1(1)(b) of the Official There will always be problems around these matters. I Secrets Act 1989. Have I got that right? hope that that will not be the case but I would not be Sir John Hayes indicated assent. surprised if, as my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings has said, we are only Bob Stewart: Good. When my right hon. Friends the at the start of a process and we have to revisit this Members for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir shortly. John Hayes) and for Chingford and Woodford Green Finally, may I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker, as I do start talking, I know I am in trouble. not feel great and I am a bit dizzy, so my voice is not the So we on the ISC are subject to section 1(1)(b) of the usual? I am going to sit down now. Official Secrets Act 1989, and, whatever side of the House we sit on, we have all been appointed to the Committee by the Prime Minister with that in mind. However, not Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): We heard you every Member of Parliament or Clerk has signed the Official loud and clear, Colonel Bob. Secrets Act—some have, but many have not. Obviously, I am not being personal about colleagues because a lot James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): It is a great of them can keep secrets far better than I can: as my pleasure to follow my eminent right hon. Friend the wife says, I have a big mouth. Okay—but I do keep Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart)—if only I were secrets of the state, Minister. as good. ISC Clerks have something called developed vetting As the final Back-Bench speaker this afternoon, it is security clearances, but not all DCMS Committee Clerks incumbent on me to be supportive of the Government, would. Developed vetting security clearances require the which of course I am, and this excellent Bill. We are individual concerned to undergo a lengthy and somewhat where we are today for two reasons. First, it shows that intrusive investigation—some of the questions are appalling. the Government do listen to Back Benchers. Secondly, Assuming that DCMS Clerks were to have such developed the Bill is a pretty good bit of work and it ticks the box, credentials and were able to handle top secret material as indeed it should. As defence and national security in hard copy, such as documents that need to be secured become ever more virtual and online, it has never been in security-accredited lockable cabinets within a security- more important to secure our lines of communication, accredited office, anything with a top secret grading on both domestically and internationally, with our allies. I it or an IT system with such grading would need to be urge all Members to consider the notion of strategic accredited and checked out very carefully. independence, which we have spoken a lot about during May I also raise the matter of meetings where top the covid crisis. As we go forward, it is really important secret material is discussed? I may be wrong, but I do that we aspire to be able to operate autonomously as a not think there is such a meeting room in the Palace or global nation alongside our allies. 303 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 304

I believe that the Bill is important for three reasons. Sir John Hayes: Let me cement that point but also First, it will allow for better security both domestically perhaps offer an olive branch to the Minister, if I might and internationally. It kicks out the high-risk vendors be so bold. If the Minister, when he sums up, were to from our network—what’s not to like? Secondly, it make a firm and binding commitment that he, for placates our allies. New Zealand, Australia, the USA, example, and others will appear before the ISC at our Canada and others were quite noisy when Huawei was request to be scrutinised on these and other matters, originally admitted to our network, so let us hope that that might go some way—not the whole way, but some this will placate them, cement that relationship and, way—to assuaging doubts and fears. perhaps in time, even enable us to admit Japan and other close allies. Thirdly, it opens the door for other 5G James Sunderland: I thank my right hon. Friend for providers to come in, which is a good thing, and I his intervention. Again, I empathise with the point. I support the UK’s diversification strategy. will happily leave it to the Minister to make his view known in his summing-up later. Having sat on the Committee for this excellent Bill, it is a pleasure to see it back here on Report. The Bill takes forward the Government’scommitment to the UK telecoms 4.15 pm supply chain review,introduces a new security framework, New clause 3 requires the Secretary of State to report amends the Communications Act 2003, introduces new on the impact of the Government’s diversification strategy security duties, brings new powers to the Secretary of on the security telecommunications network and services, State and strengthens Ofcom’sregulatory powers, allowing which of course they will do, so I agree that the Government it to enforce the new framework. That is all very positive. do not need to be dragged back to the Dispatch Box on It also introduces new national security powers for the this. Again, I am with the Government on new clause 3. Government to impose, monitor and enforce controls. I can see the merits of amendment 1 on consulting with Again, that is a positive step. the devolved nations, which, of course, again, the I am pretty happy with the Bill as it stands, but in the Government will do. National security, as we know, is a interests of objectivity, I will talk to a number of reserved matter under the devolution settlements in the new clauses and amendments. On new clause 1, the force, so, again, I am happy that the Government have Government are aware that the Bill gives Ofcom significant got this right. new responsibilities, and it will need to increase its On amendments 2 and 3, the Government have every resources and skills to meet those new demands. Ofcom’s intention of seeking the advice of the UK security and budget is approved by its independent board, and the intelligence services, in particular the National Cyber Minister has today confirmed that the budget limit set Security Centre, so again, while the amendments have by the Government will be adjusted to allow Ofcom to merit, I am completely with the Government on this. carry out new functions effectively. Ofcom is already In conclusion, my sense is that the new clauses and engaged in this space—we are already proactively looking amendments that we have discussed today do have merit, over the horizon and scanning for future threats— and I note that the Minister has noted them. Again, we so I am happy that the Government have got this discussed these issues at length in Committee. It is a about right. good Bill and I will be voting it through this evening. New clause 2 would ensure that the Intelligence and Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before I call Security Committee of Parliament is provided with the Minister, may I say that I am anticipating three information relating to a designated vendor direction. I Divisions, on new clauses 1, 2 and 3? If there is to be an am sympathetic to this, but the Government know what additional vote, I would like to be informed so that I they are doing. As the Minister said, the ISC’s primary can call it, but I understand that there are going to be focus is to oversee the work of the security and intelligence only three Divisions. agencies. Its remit is clearly defined in the Justice and Security Act 2013, so the Bill is not the appropriate The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, place to achieve an overall enhanced role for the ISC. Culture, Media and Sport (Matt Warman): I thank all those Members who have contributed to the debate Dr Julian Lewis: I am sorry to have to reiterate this today.It is an important debate because digital connectivity point. There are other ways in which our concerns is an integral part of all our lives. For countless people could be addressed, such as by adjusting our memorandum across the country, having fast and reliable broadband of understanding, rather than putting it on the face of and a good mobile connection is vital to our way of life, the Bill, so I am with my hon. Friend as far as that is but for us to truly reap the benefits of the gigabit-capable concerned. However, it is very clearly within our remit broadband and 5G, we need to have confidence that to oversee not only the agencies but those parts of other they are secure and that means securing the networks Departments where highly classified information is on which they are built, the supply chains on which they concerned. That is just a matter of fact—it is in the depend, and the equipment and services that support agreement between us and the Prime Minister. them. The Bill demonstrates clearly the Government’s commitment to ensuring the security and resilience of James Sunderland: I empathise with my right hon. our telecoms networks. Friend’s view, and I agree that he has a point. My Let me turn to the new clauses and amendments. I position is the same as the Government’s: I do not shall start by addressing new clause 1. As the UK’s think that this Bill is necessarily the vehicle through communications regulator, Ofcom already plays an which we should look at the future of how the ISC important role in ensuring the ongoing security and operates. I am a keen follower of the ISC and its output. resilience of our networks by enforcing the current security Its work is eminent, and my right hon. Friend’s point is duties under the Communications Act. This Bill will well made. build on that experience, giving Ofcom new responsibilities 305 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 306

[Matt Warman] the ISC with some trepidation, as is probably appropriate for all Government Ministers,but it was a hugely productive and a range of new powers. What the new clause would part of this process and something that I am more than do is require it to publish an additional statement as happy to do again. I do not think that my right hon. part of its annual report. Happily, I can reassure hon. Friend necessarily thinks that piecemeal changes to the Members that the Bill already has various reporting ISC’s role are the way to pursue what he seeks, but the mechanisms included within it. Under the new and annual report that he has mentioned will certainly be snappily named section 105Z, Ofcom will need to regularly looked at closely by the Government. report to the Secretary of State. Subsection (4)(a) makes it clear that that report must include information on the providers’ compliance with the duties imposed on them Dr Julian Lewis: I am very happy to agree with what by the Bill. the Minister has just said. It would not be necessary to keep trying to put these provisions on the face of each Ofcom will also need to report on telecoms security individual Bill every time a new unit is set up in a in its annual infrastructure report, and clause 11 specifies different Department, or a new duty laid on a different that this should include information on the extent to Department, if it could be agreed with the Government which providers are complying with their security duties that the memorandum of understanding would be adjusted under new sections 105A to 105D. The Secretary of as it is meant to be adjusted when these changes occur. State will also need to regularly report to Parliament on However, sadly, no Front Bencher has yet been able to the effectiveness and impact of the new telecoms security give us an assurance that that is going to happen, and I framework. know that the Minister will not be able to do so, either. On the final point in the new clause of the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) about publishing information on emerging and future Matt Warman: As I say, I am sure that my right hon. security risks, that is not of itself necessarily the most Friend will make that point in the annual report, and productive way of handling security risks, but the principle the Government will look closely at it. However,Members that she is trying to get to is very much part of what the can take some comfort from the fact that much of the Government are seeking to do and, of course, it would advice in relation to the more sensitive technical and be part of what we intend to make sure that we talk national security matters within the scope of this Bill about as much as we can within the bounds of national will be provided by the National Cyber Security Centre, security. and its activities already fall within the scope of the ISC, as my right hon. Friend knows. However, I welcome I turn specifically to budget and resources. The hon. his approach to this, and I hope that his mechanism, Member has set out her concerns about Ofcom’s access rather than that of new clause 2, will be the one he will to resources and capabilities. It is an issue that my right support today. hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) also touched on. I can tell I turn to the last of the new clauses tabled by Opposition the House today that Ofcom’s security budget for this Members. New clause 3 aims to include the diversification financial year has been increased by £4.6 million on top strategy in the scope of the Bill. Diversification is crucial of its current security budget. This funding will allow to the future of our UK networks, which is why the Ofcom to more than double its headcount of people Government set out their plans to diversify those networks working on telecoms security, ensuring that it has the in the 5G diversification strategy in November 2020. That necessary capability and capacity to deliver its new strategy includes steps to invest in research and development, responsibilities under the Bill. The hon. Member for to remove technical and commercial barriers to entry Newcastle upon Tyne Central is aware that I have for new suppliers, and to increase our influence in standard- written to the Intelligence and Security Committee setting bodies—all issues that my right hon. Friend the about that security resourcing. It was at a level that I Member for South Holland and The Deepings and others cannot go into on the Floor of this House, but I hope on the ISC are keenly aware of the importance of. that provides the kind of reassurance that she seeks. We are pursuing a huge range of different mechanisms Specifically on the future risks that I alluded to a to enable diversification, because the Government are moment ago, we have ensured that the Bill is looking to fully committed to ensuring that their strategy comes to the future. For example, clause 12(3)(b) amends Ofcom’s fruition. However, the diversification strategy moves information-gathering powers under section 135 of the the whole market forward by broadening the supplier Communications Act to ensure that it can request base in many ways that are beyond the security measures information from providers concerning future developments that are the purview of this Bill, including increased in their networks that could have an impact on security innovation and competition and the overall growth of and, when reporting on security, Ofcom must include the telecoms supply mechanisms. any information that assists the Secretary of State in the Togive the House an idea of some of the non-legislative formulation of security policy, allowing him or her to measures that we are already pursuing, they include the make an informed decision about what should be published investment in R&D development facilities such as the as well in due course. National Telecoms Lab and the SONIC—SmartRAN New clause 2 has been the subject of the majority of Open Network Interoperability Centre—lab that is jointly this debate, and rightly so. One of the phrases used at work with Ofcom. We are also working to remove about the ISC was that it adds value; this Government barriers to entry for vendors such as by co-ordinating do not dispute for a second that it adds huge value, and the sunsetting of legacy network technologies, working I welcome the tone with which the Chairman of the internationally to co-ordinate diversification objectives, ISC, my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest and exploring the use of commercial incentives to address East (Dr Lewis), has approached this. I appeared before the cost of incorporating new suppliers into a network. 307 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 308

Jim Shannon: I asked a question to do with the Government’scommitment to deepening our co-operation Northern Ireland Assembly and how cyber-security in with partner nations such as Japan and the Republic of Northern Ireland will be protected. Can we have an Korea. assurance on the Floor of the House today and through I thank all hon. Members on the Government Benches, Hansard that that will happen? and indeed on the Opposition Benches,for their constructive engagement throughout this debate. This is an important Matt Warman: I will come on to the devolved aspects Bill that enjoys strong cross-party support, in the main. in amendment 1 in a moment, but it is of course vital The sooner we can pass it, the sooner we can set about that we continue the collaborative relationship with the the crucial work of ensuring that our public telecoms Northern Ireland Executive and with the Welsh and the networks are secure and resilient. I commend the Bill to Scottish Governments as well. the House. The Bill places security requirements on individual operators. They are hugely important, but they are not 4.30 pm diversification requirements on the Government’snational scale. Defining diversification in legislation would be Chi Onwurah [V]: This has been a very well-informed limiting in a hugely rapidly evolving market. I know that debate. I am sorry if my own digital connectivity did the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central not enable my contribution to be heard as perfectly as it understands the need for agility, and putting what she should have been, but I hope we have corrected that. proposes into legislation would run counter to that There were many excellent contributions from both ambition. sides of the House. It is important to note that the House On the devolved Administrations, amendment 1 would is in quite rare agreement on a number of questions require the Secretary of State to consult Ministers from regarding the Bill, particularly on the importance of the devolved Governments when reviewing the impact national security.The representatives of each of the parties and effectiveness of clauses 1 to 13. As the hon. Member in the debate—the hon. Members for Aberdeen South for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn) noted, telecoms is (Stephen Flynn), for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter a reserved matter under each of the devolution settlements. Ross (Jamie Stone) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I say that, however,in the full knowledge that a constructive and the Minister himself—shared support for the primacy and close working relationship with each of the devolved of national security and recognition of the importance Governments is hugely important, be it in Project Gigabit, of our telecoms networks in our national security, and I in the shared rural network, or indeed in matters such was pleased to listen to their contributions. I thank the as this. I look forward to that collaboration continuing; Minister for his response and for the tone in which the it will drive forward our connectivity. debate has been conducted. I turn briefly to the amendments that were not selected. However, I will say briefly, with regard to new clause 1, My right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and which seeks to ensure that Ofcom has the skills and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) has spoken expertise needed to undertake its new duties in the passionately about these matters, both privately and midst of all the other responsibilities that Parliament is publicly. I do not want to go into a huge amount of asking, as well as reviewing future provision and threats detail on amendments that were not selected, but I to the network, that the Minister’s comments on the simply say that the actions the Government are taking increase in the cap on Ofcom’s budget did not begin to in the Bill speak powerfully for themselves. address our concerns. We have, effectively, a snapshot of On the specific matter of issuing designation notices the financial resourcing available now. The new clause to vendors headquartered in other countries, it is important seeks to ensure that we have an understanding of the to consider not just whether the kinds of laws that my resourcing as it continues—as threats evolve in the right hon. Friend mentions exist, but how the Government future—and particularly that we are able to look forward in question intend to use them. A friendly democracy to new and evolving threats on the basis of a thorough may, as indeed many do, have laws that would enable it understanding of the assets in each network operator’s to yield information and data from companies network. headquartered within their territory. The conduct of Indeed, the right hon. Member for South Holland such a Government, and our relationship with them, and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) emphasised the step may reassure us that they would not use those powers to change in the requirements of Ofcom that the Bill do harm to the UK, but there are other cases where represents. The Minister implied that Ofcom would be Governments that have these laws have acted contrary able to do everything requested in the new clause when to the national interest of the UK in the past. As we set it comes to looking at asset registers, for example. I out in the illustrative notice for Huawei, there is a law in simply do not understand his reluctance to put that in China that enables the Chinese Government to collect the Bill, given the important role that Ofcom is to play information from companies headquartered within its in our telecoms security. I am afraid that I do not feel territory. As the Foreign Secretary has stated, we know that he answered my points on new clause 1. that the Chinese state has in the past used its power to On new clause 2, members of the Intelligence and undertake malicious cyber-activity.The designation notice Security Committee—its Chair, the right hon. Member that I mentioned demonstrates how the Government for New Forest East (Dr Lewis); the right hon. Member could take those sorts of laws into account when exercising for Beckenham (Bob Stewart); and the right hon. the powers that are already in the Bill. Member for South Holland and The Deepings—eloquently I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden articulated many of the arguments for why the ISC (Ms Ghani) for her work on the NATO Science and needs to be part of the scrutiny of this Bill. Indeed, the Technology Organisation. We very much welcome her right hon. Member for Beckenham was particularly preliminary draft report. I would like to express the detailed in his description of the very room requirements 309 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 310

[Chi Onwurah] The House divided: Ayes 263, Noes 365. Division No. 12] [4.38 pm for assessing national security issues. Having worked at Ofcom, I know its rooms very well, and I do not think AYES that they meet the requirements that he set out. Abbott, rh Ms Diane Dodds, Anneliese It is worth noting that the ISC was one of the first Abrahams, Debbie Doogan, Dave parliamentary organisations to raise issues around Huawei, Ali, Rushanara Dorans, Allan back in 2013. It seems very wrong that it should be Ali, Tahir Doughty, Stephen excluded from involvement in scrutinising how the Bill Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Dowd, Peter is implemented, given that it is the only parliamentary Amesbury, Mike Dromey, Jack grouping with the appropriate security clearance. Although Anderson, Fleur Duffield, Rosie I appreciate the Minister’s constructive tone, I do not Antoniazzi, Tonia Eagle, Dame Angela think that he answered the questions raised or sufficiently Ashworth, rh Jonathan Eagle, Maria justified the Government’s aversion to ensuring a process Bardell, Hannah Eastwood, Colum for ISC scrutiny, so I will press new clause 2 to a vote. Barker, Paula Edwards, Jonathan Beckett, rh Margaret Efford, Clive Finally, the most complex of our new clauses is new Begum, Apsana Elliott, Julie clause 3, which would ensure that the diversification of Benn, rh Hilary Elmore, Chris our telecoms networks was achieved as a prerequisite Betts, Mr Clive Eshalomi, Florence for their security. We heard from the right hon. Member Black, Mhairi Esterson, Bill for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Blackford, rh Ian Evans, Chris Smith) about how telecoms markets have been constructed Blackman, Kirsty Farron, Tim to enable the consolidation and monopoly power of Blake, Olivia Farry, Stephen particular players, and particularly Huawei. Unfortunately, Blomfield, Paul Fellows, Marion he did not go on to say how in the Bill the Government Bonnar, Steven Ferrier, Margaret would deliver on a UK sovereign capability, but he was Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Fletcher, Colleen absolutely right about how the market has effectively failed. Brennan, Kevin Flynn, Stephen Brock, Deidre Fovargue, Yvonne The hon. Member for Wealden (Ms Ghani) used her Brown, Alan Foxcroft, Vicky experience on NATO’s science and technology committee Brown, Ms Lyn Foy, Mary Kelly and on this Parliament’s Business, Energy and Industrial Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Furniss, Gill Strategy Committee to encourage the Minister to truly Bryant, Chris Gardiner, Barry examine our network resilience. New clause 3 is designed Buck, Ms Karen Gibson, Patricia to ensure the ongoing ability to examine network Burgon, Richard Gill, Preet Kaur diversification and resilience. Butler, Dawn Glindon, Mary Byrne, Ian Grady, Patrick Weheard from the right hon. Member for South Holland Byrne, rh Liam Grant, Peter and The Deepings about the impact of the unaccountable Cadbury, Ruth Green, Kate power of monopolies. Again, since the Bill does not Callaghan, Amy Greenwood, Lilian mention a diversification plan or diversification strategy, Cameron, Dr Lisa Greenwood, Margaret we cannot see that it will do anything to address that Campbell, rh Sir Alan Griffith, Nia issue. The hon. Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland) Carden, Dan Gwynne, Andrew said that the Bill supports network diversification. I Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Haigh, Louise know that that is the intention, but without our new Chamberlain, Wendy Hamilton, Fabian clause I cannot see how it will actually achieve it. Champion, Sarah Hanna, Claire The Minister reiterated the diversification plans, which Chapman, Douglas Hanvey, Neale Charalambous, Bambos Hardy, Emma are not a plan—as I set out, they have no detail and no Cherry, Joanna Harman, rh Ms Harriet action. As for his attempt to explain why the Government Clark, Feryal Harris, Carolyn have omitted from the Bill any reference to diversification, Cooper, Daisy Hayes, Helen I have to say that I found it entirely incomprehensible. It Cooper, Rosie Healey, rh John was as if referring in the Bill to diversification would Cooper, rh Yvette Hendrick, Sir Mark limit the meaning of diversification; if that were the Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hendry, Drew case, we would be unable to refer in any Bill to many of Cowan, Ronnie Hillier, Meg its intentions or outcomes. Coyle, Neil Hobhouse, Wera I remain convinced, and there is agreement on all sides Crawley, Angela Hodge, rh Dame Margaret of the House, that we need to ensure that diversification Creasy, Stella Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Cruddas, Jon Hollern, Kate of our telecoms supply chain goes hand in hand with Cryer, John Hopkins, Rachel ripping out Huawei and reducing our dependence on Cummins, Judith Hosie, rh Stewart the two remaining providers. It is very important that Cunningham, Alex Howarth, rh Sir George we take this opportunity to change the Bill so that the Daby, Janet Huq, Dr Rupa diversification of our telecoms networks is an integral Davey, rh Ed Hussain, Imran part of Ofcom’s reporting on the progression of those David, Wayne Jardine, Christine networks, so I will also press new clause 3 to a vote. Davies, Geraint Jarvis, Dan Davies-Jones, Alex Johnson, rh Dame Diana Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): As I announced Day, Martyn Johnson, Kim earlier,there will be three Divisions. As usual—if anything De Cordova, Marsha Jones, Darren is usual these days—the first will take eight minutes and Debbonaire, Thangam Jones, Gerald each subsequent Division will take five. Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Jones, rh Mr Kevan Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Docherty-Hughes, Martin Jones, Ruth 311 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 312

Jones, Sarah Phillipson, Bridget Aiken, Nickie Crosbie, Virginia Kane, Mike Pollard, Luke Aldous, Peter Crouch, Tracey Keeley, Barbara Powell, Lucy Allan, Lucy Daly, James Kendall, Liz Qaisar-Javed, Anum Amess, Sir David Davies, David T. C. Khan, Afzal Qureshi, Yasmin Anderson, Lee Davies, Gareth Kinnock, Stephen Rayner, rh Angela Anderson, Stuart Davies, Dr James Kyle, Peter Reed, Steve Andrew, rh Stuart Davies, Mims Lake, Ben Rees, Christina Ansell, Caroline Davies, Philip Lammy, rh Mr David Reeves, Ellie Argar, Edward Davis, rh Mr David Lavery, Ian Reeves, Rachel Atherton, Sarah Davison, Dehenna Law, Chris Reynolds, Jonathan Atkins, Victoria Dinenage, Caroline Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Bacon, Gareth Dines, Miss Sarah Lewis, Clive Rimmer, Ms Marie Bacon, Mr Richard Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Linden, David Rodda, Matt Badenoch, Kemi Docherty, Leo Lloyd, Tony Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Bailey, Shaun Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Long Bailey, Rebecca Saville Roberts, rh Liz Baillie, Siobhan Donelan, Michelle Lucas, Caroline Shah, Naz Baker, Duncan Dorries, Ms Nadine Lynch, Holly Sharma, Mr Virendra Baker, Mr Steve Double, Steve MacAskill, Kenny Sheerman, Mr Barry Baldwin, Harriett Dowden, rh Oliver MacNeil, Angus Brendan Sheppard, Tommy Barclay, rh Steve Doyle-Price, Jackie Madders, Justin Siddiq, Tulip Baron, Mr John Drax, Richard Mahmood, Mr Khalid Slaughter, Andy Baynes, Simon Drummond, Mrs Flick Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Alyn Bell, Aaron Duddridge, James Malhotra, Seema Smith, Cat Benton, Scott Duguid, David Maskell, Rachael Smith, Jeff Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Matheson, Christian Smith, Nick Berry, rh Jake Dunne, rh Philip Mc Nally, John Smyth, Karin Bhatti, Saqib Eastwood, Mark McCarthy, Kerry Sobel, Alex Blackman, Bob Edwards, Ruth McDonagh, Siobhain Spellar, rh John Blunt, Crispin Ellis, rh Michael McDonald, Andy Starmer, rh Keir Bone, Mr Peter Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Stephens, Chris Bottomley, Sir Peter Elphicke, Mrs Natalie McDonald, Stuart C. Stevens, Jo Bowie, Andrew Eustice, rh George McDonnell, rh John Stone, Jamie Bradley, Ben Evans, Dr Luke McFadden, rh Mr Pat Streeting, Wes Bradley, rh Karen Evennett, rh Sir David McGinn, Conor Stringer, Graham Braverman, rh Suella Everitt, Ben McGovern, Alison Sultana, Zarah Brereton, Jack Fabricant, Michael McKinnell, Catherine Tami, rh Mark Bridgen, Andrew Farris, Laura McLaughlin, Anne Tarry, Sam Brine, Steve Fell, Simon McMahon, Jim Thewliss, Alison Bristow, Paul Fletcher, Katherine McMorrin, Anna Thomas, Gareth Britcliffe, Sara Fletcher, Mark Mearns, Ian Brokenshire, rh James Fletcher, Nick Thomas-Symonds, rh Nick Miliband, rh Edward Browne, Anthony Ford, Vicky Thompson, Owen Mishra, Navendu Bruce, Fiona Foster, Kevin Thomson, Richard Monaghan, Carol Buchan, Felicity Fox, rh Dr Liam Thornberry, rh Emily Moran, Layla Buckland, rh Robert Francois, rh Mr Mark Morgan, Stephen Timms, rh Stephen Burghart, Alex Frazer, rh Lucy Morris, Grahame Trickett, Jon Burns, rh Conor Freeman, George Murray, Ian Turner, Karl Butler, Rob Freer, Mike Murray, James Twigg, Derek Cairns, rh Alun Fuller, Richard Nandy, Lisa Vaz, rh Valerie Campbell, Mr Gregory Fysh, Mr Marcus Newlands, Gavin Webbe, Claudia Carter, Andy Gale, rh Sir Roger Nichols, Charlotte West, Catherine Cartlidge, James Garnier, Mark Nicolson, John Western, Matt Cash, Sir William Ghani, Ms Nusrat Norris, Alex Whitehead, Dr Alan Cates, Miriam Gibb, rh Nick O’Hara, Brendan Whitford, Dr Philippa Chalk, Alex Gibson, Peter Olney, Sarah Whitley, Mick Chishti, Rehman Gideon, Jo Onwurah, Chi Whittome, Nadia Churchill, Jo Girvan, Paul Oppong-Asare, Abena Williams, Hywel Clark, rh Greg Glen, John Osamor, Kate Wilson, Munira Clarke, Mr Simon Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Osborne, Kate Winter, Beth Clarke, Theo Gove, rh Michael Oswald, Kirsten Wishart, Pete Clarke-Smith, Brendan Graham, Richard Owatemi, Taiwo Yasin, Mohammad Clarkson, Chris Grant, Mrs Helen Owen, Sarah Zeichner, Daniel Cleverly, rh James Gray, James Peacock, Stephanie Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Grayling, rh Chris Pennycook, Matthew Tellers for the Ayes: Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Green, Chris Perkins, Mr Toby Jessica Morden and Colburn, Elliot Green, rh Damian Phillips, Jess Liz Twist Collins, Damian Griffith, Andrew Costa, Alberto Griffiths, Kate NOES Courts, Robert Grundy, James Adams, Nigel Afriyie, Adam Coutinho, Claire Gullis, Jonathan Afolami, Bim Ahmad Khan, Imran Cox, rh Sir Geoffrey Halfon, rh Robert Crabb, rh Stephen Hall, Luke 313 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 314

Hammond, Stephen Maclean, Rachel Russell, Dean Tomlinson, Justin Hancock, rh Matt Mak, Alan Rutley, David Tomlinson, Michael Hands, rh Greg Malthouse, Kit Sambrook, Gary Tracey, Craig Harper, rh Mr Mark Mangnall, Anthony Saxby, Selaine Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Harris, Rebecca Mann, Scott Scully, Paul Trott, Laura Harrison, Trudy Marson, Julie Seely, Bob Truss, rh Elizabeth Hart, Sally-Ann May, rh Mrs Theresa Selous, Andrew Tugendhat, Tom Hart, rh Simon Mayhew, Jerome Shannon, Jim Vara, Shailesh Hayes, rh Sir John Maynard, Paul Shapps, rh Grant Vickers, Martin Heald, rh Sir Oliver McCartney, Jason Sharma, rh Alok Vickers, Matt Heappey, James McCartney, Karl Shelbrooke, rh Alec Villiers, rh Theresa Heaton-Harris, Chris McPartland, Stephen Simmonds, David Wakeford, Christian Henderson, Gordon McVey, rh Esther Skidmore, rh Chris Walker, Sir Charles Henry, Darren Menzies, Mark Smith, Chloe Walker, Mr Robin Higginbotham, Antony Merriman, Huw Smith, Greg Wallace, rh Mr Ben Hinds, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Henry Hoare, Simon Millar, Robin Smith, rh Julian Wallis, Dr Jamie Holden, Mr Richard Miller, rh Mrs Maria Smith, Royston Warburton, David Hollinrake, Kevin Milling, rh Amanda Solloway, Amanda Warman, Matt Holloway, Adam Mills, Nigel Spencer, Dr Ben Watling, Giles Holmes, Paul Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Spencer, rh Mark Webb, Suzanne Howell, John Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stafford, Alexander Whately, Helen Howell, Paul Moore, Damien Stephenson, Andrew Wheeler, Mrs Heather Huddleston, Nigel Moore, Robbie Stevenson, Jane Whittaker, Craig Hudson, Dr Neil Mordaunt, rh Penny Stevenson, , rh Mr John Hughes, Eddie Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, rh Bob Wiggin, Bill Hunt, Jane Morris, David Stewart, Iain Wild, James Hunt, rh Jeremy Morrissey, Joy Streeter, Sir Gary Williams, Craig Hunt, Tom Mortimer, Jill Stride, rh Mel Williamson, rh Gavin Jack, rh Mr Alister Morton, Wendy Stuart, Graham Wilson, rh Sammy Javid, rh Sajid Mullan, Dr Kieran Sturdy, Julian Wood, Mike Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Mumby-Croft, Holly Sunak, rh Rishi Wragg, Mr William Jenkin, Sir Bernard Mundell, rh David Sunderland, James Wright, rh Jeremy Jenkinson, Mark Murray, Mrs Sheryll Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Young, Jacob Jenkyns, Andrea Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Syms, Sir Robert Zahawi, Nadhim Jenrick, rh Robert Neill, Sir Robert Thomas, Derek Johnson, rh Boris Nici, Lia Throup, Maggie Tellers for the Noes: Johnson, Dr , rh Caroline Timpson, Edward and Johnson, Gareth Norman, rh Jesse Tolhurst, Kelly James Morris Johnston, David O’Brien, Neil Jones, Andrew Offord, Dr Matthew Question accordingly negatived. Jones, rh Mr David Opperman, Guy Jones, Fay Paisley, Ian The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Jones, Mr Marcus Parish, Neil proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Jupp, Simon Patel, rh Priti proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Kawczynski, Daniel Paterson, rh Mr Owen Kearns, Alicia Pawsey, Mark Keegan, Gillian Penning, rh Sir Mike New Clause 2 Knight, rh Sir Greg Penrose, John Knight, Julian Percy, Andrew PROVISION OF INFORMATION TO THE INTELLIGENCE AND Kruger, Danny Philp, Chris SECURITY COMMITTEE Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Pincher, rh Christopher “The Secretary of State must provide the Intelligence and Lamont, John Poulter, Dr Dan Security Committee of Parliament as soon as is reasonably practicable Largan, Robert Pow, Rebecca with a copy of— Latham, Mrs Pauline Prentis, Victoria (a) any direction or notice (or part thereof) that is withheld Leadsom, rh Andrea Pritchard, rh Mark from publication by the Secretary of State in the interests of Leigh, rh Sir Edward Pursglove, Tom national security in accordance with section 105Z11(2) or (3) of Levy, Ian Quin, Jeremy the Communications Act 2003; Lewer, Andrew Quince, Will (b) any notification of contravention given by the Secretary of Lewis, rh Brandon Raab, rh Dominic State in accordance with section 105Z18(1) of the Communications Lewis, rh Dr Julian Randall, Tom Act 2003; Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Redwood, rh John (c) any confirmation decision given by the Secretary of State in Lockhart, Carla Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob accordance with section 105Z20(2)(a) of the Communications Loder, Chris Richards, Nicola Act 2003; Logan, Mark Richardson, Angela (d) any reasons for making an urgent enforcement direction Longhi, Marco Roberts, Rob that are withheld by the Secretary of State in the interests of Lopez, Julia Robertson, Mr Laurence national security in the accordance with section 105Z22(5) of the Lopresti, Jack Robinson, Gavin Communications Act 2003; and Lord, Mr Jonathan Robinson, Mary (e) any reasons for confirming or modifying an urgent enforcement Loughton, Tim Rosindell, Andrew direction that are withheld by the Secretary of State in the Mackinlay, Craig Ross, Douglas interests of national security in accordance with section 105Z23(6) Mackrory, Cherilyn Rowley, Lee of the Communications Act 2003.”—(Chi Onwurah.) 315 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 316

This new clause would ensure that the Intelligence and Security Hillier, Meg O’Hara, Brendan Committee of Parliament is provided with any information relating Hobhouse, Wera Olney, Sarah to a designated vendor direction, notification of contravention, Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Onwurah, Chi urgent enforcement action or modifications to an enforcement direction Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Oppong-Asare, Abena made on grounds of national security. Hollern, Kate Osamor, Kate Brought up, and read the First time. Hopkins, Rachel Osborne, Kate Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Hosie, rh Stewart Oswald, Kirsten Howarth, rh Sir George Owatemi, Taiwo The House divided: Ayes 263, Noes 363. Huq, Dr Rupa Owen, Sarah Hussain, Imran Peacock, Stephanie Division No. 13] [4.49 pm Jardine, Christine Pennycook, Matthew Jarvis, Dan Perkins, Mr Toby AYES Johnson, rh Dame Diana Phillips, Jess Abbott, rh Ms Diane Daby, Janet Johnson, Kim Phillipson, Bridget Abrahams, Debbie Davey, rh Ed Jones, Darren Pollard, Luke Ali, Rushanara David, Wayne Jones, Gerald Powell, Lucy Ali, Tahir Davies, Geraint Jones, rh Mr Kevan Qaisar-Javed, Anum Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Ruth Qureshi, Yasmin Amesbury, Mike Day, Martyn Jones, Sarah Rayner, rh Angela Anderson, Fleur De Cordova, Marsha Kane, Mike Reed, Steve Antoniazzi, Tonia Debbonaire, Thangam Keeley, Barbara Rees, Christina Ashworth, rh Jonathan Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kendall, Liz Reeves, Ellie Bardell, Hannah Docherty-Hughes, Martin Khan, Afzal Reeves, Rachel Barker, Paula Dodds, Anneliese Kinnock, Stephen Reynolds, Jonathan Beckett, rh Margaret Doogan, Dave Kyle, Peter Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Begum, Apsana Dorans, Allan Lake, Ben Rimmer, Ms Marie Lammy, rh Mr David Rodda, Matt Benn, rh Hilary Doughty, Stephen Lavery, Ian Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Betts, Mr Clive Dowd, Peter Law, Chris Saville Roberts, rh Liz Black, Mhairi Dromey, Jack Duffield, Rosie Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Shah, Naz Blackford, rh Ian Eagle, Dame Angela Lewis, Clive Sharma, Mr Virendra Blackman, Kirsty Eagle, Maria Linden, David Sheerman, Mr Barry Blake, Olivia Eastwood, Colum Lloyd, Tony Sheppard, Tommy Blomfield, Paul Edwards, Jonathan Long Bailey, Rebecca Siddiq, Tulip Bonnar, Steven Efford, Clive Lucas, Caroline Slaughter, Andy Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Elliott, Julie Lynch, Holly Smith, Alyn Brennan, Kevin Elmore, Chris MacAskill, Kenny Smith, Cat Brock, Deidre Eshalomi, Florence MacNeil, Angus Brendan Smith, Jeff Brown, Alan Esterson, Bill Madders, Justin Smith, Nick Brown, Ms Lyn Evans, Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smyth, Karin Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Farron, Tim Mahmood, Shabana Sobel, Alex Bryant, Chris Farry, Stephen Malhotra, Seema Spellar, rh John Buck, Ms Karen Fellows, Marion Maskell, Rachael Starmer, rh Keir Burgon, Richard Ferrier, Margaret Matheson, Christian Stephens, Chris Butler, Dawn Fletcher, Colleen Mc Nally, John Stevens, Jo Byrne, Ian Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Stone, Jamie Byrne, rh Liam Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Streeting, Wes McDonald, Andy Stringer, Graham Cadbury, Ruth Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Sultana, Zarah Callaghan, Amy Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stuart C. Tami, rh Mark Cameron, Dr Lisa Furniss, Gill McDonnell, rh John Tarry, Sam Campbell, rh Sir Alan Gardiner, Barry Gibson, Patricia McFadden, rh Mr Pat Thewliss, Alison Carden, Dan Gill, Preet Kaur McGinn, Conor Thomas, Gareth Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Glindon, Mary McGovern, Alison Thomas-Symonds, rh Nick Chamberlain, Wendy Grady, Patrick McKinnell, Catherine Thompson, Owen Champion, Sarah Grant, Peter McLaughlin, Anne Thomson, Richard Chapman, Douglas Green, Kate McMahon, Jim Thornberry, rh Emily Charalambous, Bambos Greenwood, Lilian McMorrin, Anna Timms, rh Stephen Cherry, Joanna Greenwood, Margaret Mearns, Ian Trickett, Jon Clark, Feryal Griffith, Nia Miliband, rh Edward Turner, Karl Cooper, Daisy Gwynne, Andrew Mishra, Navendu Twigg, Derek Cooper, Rosie Haigh, Louise Monaghan, Carol Vaz, rh Valerie Cooper, rh Yvette Hamilton, Fabian Moran, Layla Webbe, Claudia Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hanna, Claire Morgan, Stephen West, Catherine Cowan, Ronnie Hanvey, Neale Morris, Grahame Western, Matt Coyle, Neil Hardy, Emma Murray, Ian Whitehead, Dr Alan Crawley, Angela Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, James Whitford, Dr Philippa Creasy, Stella Harris, Carolyn Nandy, Lisa Whitley, Mick Cruddas, Jon Hayes, Helen Newlands, Gavin Whittome, Nadia Cryer, John Healey, rh John Nichols, Charlotte Williams, Hywel Cummins, Judith Hendrick, Sir Mark Nicolson, John Wilson, Munira Cunningham, Alex Hendry, Drew Norris, Alex Winter, Beth 317 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 318

Wishart, Pete Tellers for the Ayes: Girvan, Paul Leigh, rh Sir Edward Yasin, Mohammad Jessica Morden and Glen, John Levy, Ian Zeichner, Daniel Liz Twist Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lewer, Andrew Gove, rh Michael Lewis, rh Brandon NOES Graham, Richard Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Grant, Mrs Helen Lockhart, Carla Adams, Nigel Cleverly, rh James Gray, James Loder, Chris Afolami, Bim Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Grayling, rh Chris Logan, Mark Afriyie, Adam Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Green, Chris Longhi, Marco Ahmad Khan, Imran Colburn, Elliot Green, rh Damian Lopez, Julia Aiken, Nickie Collins, Damian Griffith, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Aldous, Peter Costa, Alberto Griffiths, Kate Lord, Mr Jonathan Allan, Lucy Courts, Robert Grundy, James Loughton, Tim Amess, Sir David Coutinho, Claire Gullis, Jonathan Mackinlay, Craig Anderson, Lee Cox, rh Sir Geoffrey Halfon, rh Robert Mackrory, Cherilyn Anderson, Stuart Crabb, rh Stephen Hall, Luke Maclean, Rachel Andrew, rh Stuart Crosbie, Virginia Hammond, Stephen Mak, Alan Ansell, Caroline Crouch, Tracey Hancock, rh Matt Malthouse, Kit Argar, Edward Daly, James Hands, rh Greg Mangnall, Anthony Atherton, Sarah Davies, David T. C. Harper, rh Mr Mark Mann, Scott Atkins, Victoria Davies, Gareth Harris, Rebecca Marson, Julie Bacon, Gareth Davies, Dr James Harrison, Trudy May, rh Mrs Theresa Bacon, Mr Richard Davies, Mims Hart, Sally-Ann Mayhew, Jerome Badenoch, Kemi Davies, Philip Hart, rh Simon Maynard, Paul Bailey, Shaun Davis, rh Mr David Hayes, rh Sir John McCartney, Jason Baillie, Siobhan Davison, Dehenna Heald, rh Sir Oliver McCartney, Karl Baker, Duncan Dinenage, Caroline Heappey, James McPartland, Stephen Baker, Mr Steve Dines, Miss Sarah Heaton-Harris, Chris McVey, rh Esther Baldwin, Harriett Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Henderson, Gordon Menzies, Mark Barclay, rh Steve Docherty, Leo Henry, Darren Merriman, Huw Baron, Mr John Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Higginbotham, Antony Metcalfe, Stephen Baynes, Simon Donelan, Michelle Hinds, rh Damian Millar, Robin Bell, Aaron Dorries, Ms Nadine Hoare, Simon Miller, rh Mrs Maria Benton, Scott Double, Steve Holden, Mr Richard Milling, rh Amanda Beresford, Sir Paul Dowden, rh Oliver Hollinrake, Kevin Mills, Nigel Berry, rh Jake Doyle-Price, Jackie Holloway, Adam Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Bhatti, Saqib Drax, Richard Holmes, Paul Mohindra, Mr Gagan Blackman, Bob Drummond, Mrs Flick Howell, John Moore, Damien Blunt, Crispin Duddridge, James Howell, Paul Moore, Robbie Bone, Mr Peter Duguid, David Huddleston, Nigel Mordaunt, rh Penny Bottomley, Sir Peter Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, Anne Marie Bowie, Andrew Dunne, rh Philip Hughes, Eddie Morris, David Bradley, Ben Eastwood, Mark Hunt, Jane Morrissey, Joy Bradley, rh Karen Edwards, Ruth Hunt, rh Jeremy Mortimer, Jill Braverman, rh Suella Ellis, rh Michael Hunt, Tom Morton, Wendy Brereton, Jack Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jack, rh Mr Alister Mullan, Dr Kieran Bridgen, Andrew Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Javid, rh Sajid Mumby-Croft, Holly Brine, Steve Eustice, rh George Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Mundell, rh David Bristow, Paul Evans, Dr Luke Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murray, Mrs Sheryll Britcliffe, Sara Evennett, rh Sir David Jenkinson, Mark Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Brokenshire, rh James Everitt, Ben Jenkyns, Andrea Neill, Sir Robert Browne, Anthony Fabricant, Michael Jenrick, rh Robert Nici, Lia Bruce, Fiona Farris, Laura Johnson, rh Boris Nokes, rh Caroline Buchan, Felicity Fell, Simon Johnson, Dr Caroline Norman, rh Jesse Buckland, rh Robert Fletcher, Katherine Johnson, Gareth O’Brien, Neil Burghart, Alex Fletcher, Mark Johnston, David Offord, Dr Matthew Burns, rh Conor Fletcher, Nick Jones, Andrew Opperman, Guy Butler, Rob Ford, Vicky Jones, rh Mr David Paisley, Ian Cairns, rh Alun Foster, Kevin Jones, Fay Parish, Neil Campbell, Mr Gregory Fox, rh Dr Liam Jones, Mr Marcus Patel, rh Priti Carter, Andy Francois, rh Mr Mark Jupp, Simon Paterson, rh Mr Owen Cartlidge, James Frazer, rh Lucy Kawczynski, Daniel Pawsey, Mark Cash, Sir William Freeman, George Kearns, Alicia Penning, rh Sir Mike Cates, Miriam Freer, Mike Keegan, Gillian Penrose, John Chalk, Alex Fuller, Richard Knight, rh Sir Greg Percy, Andrew Chishti, Rehman Fysh, Mr Marcus Knight, Julian Philp, Chris Churchill, Jo Gale, rh Sir Roger Kruger, Danny Pincher, rh Christopher Clark, rh Greg Garnier, Mark Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Poulter, Dr Dan Clarke, Mr Simon Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lamont, John Pow, Rebecca Clarke, Theo Gibb, rh Nick Largan, Robert Prentis, Victoria Clarke-Smith, Brendan Gibson, Peter Latham, Mrs Pauline Pritchard, rh Mark Clarkson, Chris Gideon, Jo Leadsom, rh Andrea Pursglove, Tom 319 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 320

Quin, Jeremy Sunak, rh Rishi (e) progress made in any aspects of the implementation of Quince, Will Sunderland, James the diversification strategy not covered by subsection (a); Raab, rh Dominic Swayne, rh Sir Desmond (f) the public funding which is available for diversification. Randall, Tom Syms, Sir Robert (3) The Secretary of State must lay the report before Parliament. Redwood, rh John Thomas, Derek Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Throup, Maggie (4) A Minister of the Crown must, not later than two months Richards, Nicola Timpson, Edward after the report has been laid before Parliament, make a motion in the House of Commons in relation to the report.”—(Chi Onwurah.) Richardson, Angela Tolhurst, Kelly Roberts, Rob Tomlinson, Justin This new clause requires the Secretary of State to report on the Robertson, Mr Laurence Tomlinson, Michael impact of the Government’s diversification strategy on the security Robinson, Gavin Tracey, Craig of telecommunication networks and services, and allow for a debate Robinson, Mary Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie in the House of Commons on the report. Rosindell, Andrew Trott, Laura Brought up, and read the First time. Ross, Douglas Truss, rh Elizabeth Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Rowley, Lee Tugendhat, Tom Russell, Dean Vara, Shailesh The House divided: Ayes 271, Noes 357. Rutley, David Vickers, Martin Division No. 14] [4.56 pm Sambrook, Gary Vickers, Matt Saxby, Selaine Villiers, rh Theresa AYES Scully, Paul Wakeford, Christian Seely, Bob Walker, Sir Charles Abbott, rh Ms Diane Crawley, Angela Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Abrahams, Debbie Creasy, Stella Shannon, Jim Wallace, rh Mr Ben Ali, Rushanara Cruddas, Jon Shapps, rh Grant Wallis, Dr Jamie Ali, Tahir Cryer, John Sharma, rh Alok Warburton, David Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Cummins, Judith Shelbrooke, rh Alec Warman, Matt Amesbury, Mike Cunningham, Alex Simmonds, David Watling, Giles Anderson, Fleur Daby, Janet Skidmore, rh Chris Webb, Suzanne Antoniazzi, Tonia Davey, rh Ed Smith, Chloe Whately, Helen Ashworth, rh Jonathan David, Wayne Smith, Greg Wheeler, Mrs Heather Bardell, Hannah Davies, Geraint Smith, Henry Whittaker, Craig Barker, Paula Davies-Jones, Alex Smith, rh Julian Whittingdale, rh Mr John Beckett, rh Margaret Day, Martyn Smith, Royston Wiggin, Bill Begum, Apsana De Cordova, Marsha Solloway, Amanda Wild, James Benn, rh Hilary Debbonaire, Thangam Betts, Mr Clive Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Spencer, Dr Ben Williams, Craig Black, Mhairi Docherty-Hughes, Martin Spencer, rh Mark Williamson, rh Gavin Blackford, rh Ian Dodds, Anneliese Stafford, Alexander Wilson, rh Sammy Blackman, Kirsty Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Stephenson, Andrew Wood, Mike Blake, Olivia Doogan, Dave Stevenson, Jane Wragg, Mr William Stevenson, John Blomfield, Paul Dorans, Allan Wright, rh Jeremy Stewart, rh Bob Bonnar, Steven Doughty, Stephen Young, Jacob Stewart, Iain Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dowd, Peter Zahawi, Nadhim Streeter, Sir Gary Brennan, Kevin Dromey, Jack Stride, rh Mel Tellers for the Noes: Brock, Deidre Duffield, Rosie Stuart, Graham Maria Caulfield and Brown, Alan Eagle, Dame Angela Sturdy, Julian James Morris Brown, Ms Lyn Eagle, Maria Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Eastwood, Colum Bryant, Chris Edwards, Jonathan Question accordingly negatived. Buck, Ms Karen Efford, Clive The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Burgon, Richard Elliott, Julie proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Butler, Dawn Elmore, Chris proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Byrne, Ian Eshalomi, Florence Byrne, rh Liam Esterson, Bill New Clause 3 Cadbury, Ruth Evans, Chris Callaghan, Amy Farron, Tim NETWORK DIVERSIFICATION Cameron, Dr Lisa Farry, Stephen ‘(1) The Secretary of State must publish an annual report on Campbell, rh Sir Alan Fellows, Marion the impact of progress of the diversification of the telecommunications Campbell, Mr Gregory Ferrier, Margaret supply chain on the security of public electronic communication Carden, Dan Fletcher, Colleen networks and services. Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Flynn, Stephen (2) The report required by subsection (1) must include an Chamberlain, Wendy Fovargue, Yvonne assessment of the effect on the security of those networks and Champion, Sarah Foxcroft, Vicky services of— Chapman, Douglas Foy, Mary Kelly (a) progress in network diversification set against the most Charalambous, Bambos Furniss, Gill recent telecommunications diversification strategy Cherry, Joanna Gardiner, Barry presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State; Clark, Feryal Gibson, Patricia (b) likely changes in ownership or trading position of Cooper, Daisy Gill, Preet Kaur existing market players; Cooper, Rosie Girvan, Paul (c) changes to the diversity of the supply chain for network Cooper, rh Yvette Glindon, Mary equipment; Corbyn, rh Jeremy Grady, Patrick (d) new areas of market consolidation and diversification Cowan, Ronnie Grant, Peter risk including the cloud computing sector; Coyle, Neil Green, Kate 321 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 322

Greenwood, Lilian McMahon, Jim Thomas-Symonds, rh Nick Whitford, Dr Philippa Greenwood, Margaret McMorrin, Anna Thompson, Owen Whitley, Mick Griffith, Nia Mearns, Ian Thomson, Richard Whittome, Nadia Gwynne, Andrew Miliband, rh Edward Thornberry, rh Emily Williams, Hywel Haigh, Louise Mishra, Navendu Timms, rh Stephen Wilson, Munira Hamilton, Fabian Monaghan, Carol Trickett, Jon Wilson, rh Sammy Hanna, Claire Moran, Layla Turner, Karl Winter, Beth Hanvey, Neale Morgan, Stephen Twigg, Derek Wishart, Pete Hardy, Emma Morris, Grahame Vaz, rh Valerie Yasin, Mohammad Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, Ian Walker, Sir Charles Zeichner, Daniel Harris, Carolyn Murray, James Webbe, Claudia Hayes, Helen Nandy, Lisa West, Catherine Tellers for the Ayes: Healey, rh John Newlands, Gavin Western, Matt Liz Twist and Hendrick, Sir Mark Nichols, Charlotte Whitehead, Dr Alan Jessica Morden Hendry, Drew Nicolson, John Hillier, Meg Norris, Alex NOES Hobhouse, Wera O’Hara, Brendan Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Olney, Sarah Adams, Nigel Cash, Sir William Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Onwurah, Chi Afolami, Bim Cates, Miriam Hollern, Kate Oppong-Asare, Abena Afriyie, Adam Chalk, Alex Hopkins, Rachel Osamor, Kate Ahmad Khan, Imran Chishti, Rehman Hosie, rh Stewart Osborne, Kate Aiken, Nickie Churchill, Jo Howarth, rh Sir George Oswald, Kirsten Aldous, Peter Clark, rh Greg Huq, Dr Rupa Owatemi, Taiwo Allan, Lucy Clarke, Mr Simon Hussain, Imran Owen, Sarah Amess, Sir David Clarke, Theo Jardine, Christine Paisley, Ian Anderson, Lee Clarke-Smith, Brendan Jarvis, Dan Peacock, Stephanie Anderson, Stuart Clarkson, Chris Johnson, rh Dame Diana Pennycook, Matthew Andrew, rh Stuart Cleverly, rh James Johnson, Kim Perkins, Mr Toby Ansell, Caroline Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Jones, Darren Phillips, Jess Argar, Edward Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Jones, Gerald Phillipson, Bridget Atherton, Sarah Colburn, Elliot Jones, rh Mr Kevan Pollard, Luke Atkins, Victoria Collins, Damian Jones, Ruth Powell, Lucy Bacon, Gareth Costa, Alberto Jones, Sarah Qaisar-Javed, Anum Bacon, Mr Richard Courts, Robert Kane, Mike Qureshi, Yasmin Badenoch, Kemi Coutinho, Claire Keeley, Barbara Rayner, rh Angela Bailey, Shaun Cox, rh Sir Geoffrey Kendall, Liz Reed, Steve Baillie, Siobhan Crabb, rh Stephen Khan, Afzal Rees, Christina Baker, Duncan Crosbie, Virginia Kinnock, Stephen Reeves, Ellie Baker, Mr Steve Crouch, Tracey Kyle, Peter Reeves, Rachel Baldwin, Harriett Daly, James Lake, Ben Reynolds, Jonathan Barclay, rh Steve Davies, David T. C. Lammy, rh Mr David Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Baron, Mr John Davies, Gareth Lavery, Ian Rimmer, Ms Marie Baynes, Simon Davies, Dr James Law, Chris Robinson, Gavin Bell, Aaron Davies, Mims Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Rodda, Matt Benton, Scott Davies, Philip Lewis, Clive Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Beresford, Sir Paul Davis, rh Mr David Linden, David Saville Roberts, rh Liz Berry, rh Jake Davison, Dehenna Lloyd, Tony Shah, Naz Bhatti, Saqib Dinenage, Caroline Lockhart, Carla Shannon, Jim Blackman, Bob Dines, Miss Sarah Long Bailey, Rebecca Sharma, Mr Virendra Blunt, Crispin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Lucas, Caroline Sheerman, Mr Barry Bone, Mr Peter Docherty, Leo Lynch, Holly Sheppard, Tommy Bottomley, Sir Peter Donelan, Michelle MacAskill, Kenny Siddiq, Tulip Bowie, Andrew Dorries, Ms Nadine MacNeil, Angus Brendan Slaughter, Andy Bradley, Ben Double, Steve Madders, Justin Smith, Alyn Bradley, rh Karen Dowden, rh Oliver Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Cat Braverman, rh Suella Doyle-Price, Jackie Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Jeff Brereton, Jack Drax, Richard Malhotra, Seema Smith, Nick Bridgen, Andrew Drummond, Mrs Flick Maskell, Rachael Smyth, Karin Brine, Steve Duddridge, James Matheson, Christian Sobel, Alex Bristow, Paul Duguid, David Mc Nally, John Spellar, rh John Britcliffe, Sara Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain McCarthy, Kerry Starmer, rh Keir Brokenshire, rh James Dunne, rh Philip McDonagh, Siobhain Stephens, Chris Browne, Anthony Eastwood, Mark McDonald, Andy Stevens, Jo Bruce, Fiona Edwards, Ruth McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Stone, Jamie Buchan, Felicity Ellis, rh Michael McDonald, Stuart C. Streeting, Wes Buckland, rh Robert Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias McDonnell, rh John Stringer, Graham Burghart, Alex Elphicke, Mrs Natalie McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sultana, Zarah Burns, rh Conor Eustice, rh George McGinn, Conor Tami, rh Mark Butler, Rob Evans, Dr Luke McGovern, Alison Tarry, Sam Cairns, rh Alun Evennett, rh Sir David McKinnell, Catherine Thewliss, Alison Carter, Andy Everitt, Ben McLaughlin, Anne Thomas, Gareth Cartlidge, James Fabricant, Michael 323 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 324

Farris, Laura Johnson, Dr Caroline Norman, rh Jesse Stephenson, Andrew Fell, Simon Johnson, Gareth O’Brien, Neil Stevenson, Jane Fletcher, Katherine Johnston, David Offord, Dr Matthew Stevenson, John Fletcher, Mark Jones, Andrew Opperman, Guy Stewart, rh Bob Fletcher, Nick Jones, rh Mr David Parish, Neil Stewart, Iain Ford, Vicky Jones, Fay Patel, rh Priti Streeter, Sir Gary Foster, Kevin Jones, Mr Marcus Paterson, rh Mr Owen Stride, rh Mel Fox, rh Dr Liam Jupp, Simon Pawsey, Mark Stuart, Graham Francois, rh Mr Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Penning, rh Sir Mike Sturdy, Julian Frazer, rh Lucy Kearns, Alicia Penrose, John Sunak, rh Rishi Freeman, George Keegan, Gillian Percy, Andrew Sunderland, James Freer, Mike Knight, rh Sir Greg Philp, Chris Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Fuller, Richard Knight, Julian Pincher, rh Christopher Syms, Sir Robert Fysh, Mr Marcus Kruger, Danny Poulter, Dr Dan Thomas, Derek Gale, rh Sir Roger Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Pow, Rebecca Throup, Maggie Garnier, Mark Lamont, John Prentis, Victoria Timpson, Edward Ghani, Ms Nusrat Largan, Robert Pritchard, rh Mark Tolhurst, Kelly Gibb, rh Nick Latham, Mrs Pauline Pursglove, Tom Tomlinson, Justin Gibson, Peter Leadsom, rh Andrea Quin, Jeremy Tomlinson, Michael Gideon, Jo Leigh, rh Sir Edward Quince, Will Tracey, Craig Glen, John Levy, Ian Raab, rh Dominic Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lewer, Andrew Randall, Tom Trott, Laura Gove, rh Michael Lewis, rh Brandon Redwood, rh John Truss, rh Elizabeth Graham, Richard Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Tugendhat, Tom Grant, Mrs Helen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Richards, Nicola Vara, Shailesh Gray, James Loder, Chris Richardson, Angela Vickers, Martin Grayling, rh Chris Logan, Mark Roberts, Rob Vickers, Matt Green, Chris Longhi, Marco Robertson, Mr Laurence Villiers, rh Theresa Green, rh Damian Lopez, Julia Robinson, Mary Wakeford, Christian Griffith, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Rosindell, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Griffiths, Kate Lord, Mr Jonathan Ross, Douglas Wallace, rh Mr Ben Grundy, James Loughton, Tim Rowley, Lee Wallis, Dr Jamie Gullis, Jonathan Mackinlay, Craig Russell, Dean Warburton, David Halfon, rh Robert Mackrory, Cherilyn Rutley, David Warman, Matt Hall, Luke Maclean, Rachel Sambrook, Gary Watling, Giles Hammond, Stephen Mak, Alan Saxby, Selaine Webb, Suzanne Hancock, rh Matt Malthouse, Kit Scully, Paul Whately, Helen Hands, rh Greg Mangnall, Anthony Seely, Bob Wheeler, Mrs Heather Harper, rh Mr Mark Mann, Scott Selous, Andrew Whittaker, Craig Harris, Rebecca Marson, Julie Shapps, rh Grant Whittingdale, rh Mr John Harrison, Trudy May, rh Mrs Theresa Sharma, rh Alok Wiggin, Bill Hart, Sally-Ann Mayhew, Jerome Shelbrooke, rh Alec Wild, James Hart, rh Simon Maynard, Paul Simmonds, David Williams, Craig Hayes, rh Sir John McCartney, Jason Skidmore, rh Chris Williamson, rh Gavin Heald, rh Sir Oliver McCartney, Karl Smith, Chloe Wood, Mike Heappey, James McPartland, Stephen Smith, Greg Wragg, Mr William Heaton-Harris, Chris McVey, rh Esther Smith, Henry Wright, rh Jeremy Henderson, Gordon Menzies, Mark Smith, rh Julian Young, Jacob Henry, Darren Merriman, Huw Smith, Royston Zahawi, Nadhim Higginbotham, Antony Metcalfe, Stephen Solloway, Amanda Hinds, rh Damian Millar, Robin Spencer, Dr Ben Tellers for the Noes: Hoare, Simon Miller, rh Mrs Maria Spencer, rh Mark Maria Caulfield and Holden, Mr Richard Milling, rh Amanda Stafford, Alexander James Morris Hollinrake, Kevin Mills, Nigel Holloway, Adam Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Question accordingly negatived. Holmes, Paul Mohindra, Mr Gagan Howell, John Moore, Damien The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Howell, Paul Moore, Robbie proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Huddleston, Nigel Mordaunt, rh Penny proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, Anne Marie Third Reading Hughes, Eddie Morris, David 5.3 pm Hunt, Jane Morrissey, Joy Hunt, rh Jeremy Mortimer, Jill Matt Warman: I beg to move, That the Bill be now Hunt, Tom Morton, Wendy read the Third time. Jack, rh Mr Alister Mullan, Dr Kieran I thank right hon. and hon. Members for their Javid, rh Sajid Mumby-Croft, Holly contributions today, and I also thank the excellent team Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Mundell, rh David of Clerks of the House, those at the Department for Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murray, Mrs Sheryll Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, and all those involved Jenkinson, Mark Murrison, rh Dr Andrew in the preparation of the Bill. In particular, I thank those Jenkyns, Andrea Neill, Sir Robert who work at our agencies to support so much of what Jenrick, rh Robert Nici, Lia goes into our national security: they are the best among Johnson, rh Boris Nokes, rh Caroline us, and all of us in the House are grateful for their service. 325 Telecommunications (Security) Bill25 MAY 2021 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 326

[Matt Warman] Competition on price rather than security has become the rule for the telecoms operators. The market failed, The first priority of this Government is to keep but Ministers did not notice; they thought that security people safe and this Bill is just one step in achieving that could be left to the market. objective. It is a precise and technical Bill but an important one none the less. While we might have disagreed on This is at a time when digital has become part of some of the details, it is encouraging that there is such every part of our lives. We now spend a quarter of our broad consensus across this place and I hope that that waking hours on the internet. The UK telecoms industry spirit of co-operation continues when the other place contributes £32 billion to the economy and directly considers the Bill. provides nearly a quarter of a million jobs. It has an impact on all our lives. As we are experiencing during The Bill will ensure the security and resilience of the the pandemic, it is an enabler of almost everything we UK’s telecoms networks for years to come. Bringing it do, and in the future—by which I mean in the next few into force on Royal Assent cannot come soon enough. years—it will bring about even more significant changes It will create one of the toughest regimes for telecoms to how we live, work and engage with one another. security in the world. It will protect our networks and shield our critical national infrastructure both now and From driverless cars to advanced manufacturing, digital in the future, as technologies grow and evolve. With this connectivity is essential. Indeed, we can argue that the Bill, we are delivering on our commitments in the 2019 pandemic has given us a taste of the future and moved telecoms supply chain review, which were informed by the future closer. It has shown us how important good, the advice from the world-leading NCSC and GCHQ. fast, stable connectivity is, with millions still depending Today, we have taken an important step towards putting on it to work from home and stay in contact with those commitments on a statutory footing and taking friends and family.The pandemic has encouraged—indeed, action to protect and secure our important networks. required—a mass migration online, with businesses that I hope that, in my response to the amendments and were not digital-ready suddenly forced to operate online. new clauses, I provided reassurance on the role of It is salutary to recall that before covid there was a Ofcom, the importance of diversification and the other question of whether broadband was a vital utility. That matters raised. I welcome the constructive challenge of was a matter of debate; it was debated as part of the Members on those points, and I hope I have reassured Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) them that we are pushing in the same direction. I thank Act 2021. The pandemic has since proved beyond doubt all Members for their contributions. I commend the Bill that telecoms is an essential utility, but, although our to the House and look forward to it passing through the telecoms infrastructure has held up during the pandemic—I other place. congratulate telecoms operators on that—it could have been so much better. Many in rural areas or unable to 5.6 pm afford decent broadband will not thank me for praising our telecoms networks. Chi Onwurah [V]: I thank the Minister for his statement and echo his remarks in thanking all the Clerks and officials When Labour left office, we had world-leading of the House and the Department who worked on the infrastructure. That is no longer the case. We are now Bill, as well as our security services for the protection 47th in the world for broadband speeds. I say that to they provide day and night and for the input of the emphasise the significance of the upheaval that the NCSC and GCHQ to the Bill. sector is facing after the Government’s decision to strip I want to make it clear that the Labour party supports Huawei out of the network, at a cost of £2 billion and the Bill as a necessary step in protecting our telecoms two to three years delay to 5G roll-out. It is a decision national security. It is important that we legislate to that we supported and continue to support, but we ensure that Government have the power to act when cannot let solving one problem give rise to numerous faced with circumstances such as those presented by more. Unfortunately, the holes that remain in this Bill Huawei or,even better,to prevent dependency on high-risk will do just that. Let me emphasise how important this vendors from arising in the first place. We will therefore Bill is in ensuring that we get regulation and investment not oppose the Bill on Third Reading. We recognise right for a sector that contributes so much to our that national security is the first duty of every Government, economy, as well as to our work and social lives. and we support the measures to promote national security We must make sure that we do not find ourselves in a in the Bill. similar position again, and that our telecoms network At every stage of the Bill’s passage, we have seen an and supply chains are resilient and protected in future— engaged and informed level of debate. As a chartered even, critically, as the geopolitical environment evolves. telecoms engineer, I particularly welcome the time that Our telecoms infrastructure lacks security and resilience. the House is spending on considering our telecoms The Government have taken no steps to maintain or infrastructure, even in these circumstances, which are to develop a sovereign telecommunications capability, and be regretted: we should not have got here. Parts of our their broadband strategy—if we can call it that—has debate have resembled a wake for the telecoms sector we far more U-turns, dither and delay than meaningful could have had with a UK sovereign capability. The policies. telecoms sector should have been subject to a more active, proactive interest for years now—or, shall I say, The Bill is passing to the other place with significant 10 years? We have lacked a telecoms industrial strategy failings. The first is national security. Labour prioritises and that, together with a focus on foreign investment national security.The Secretary of State and the Minister over national security, is why we are here. Successive both agreed during the proceedings that the Bill needed Conservative Governments have allowed the telecoms to include sweeping powers to address matters of national sector in the UK to be dominated by a high-risk vendor. security, so we remain concerned that the Committee 327 Telecommunications (Security) Bill 25 MAY 2021 328 that provides parliamentary oversight on matters of not—I hope the Minister is right that we will be able to national security is being excluded from oversight of have oversight without having to revisit the legislation, the measures in the Bill. but I suspect we might not. There it is—I promised to Secondly, the security of our networks depends on an be short, and I will sit down now. effective plan to diversify the supply chain. As our amendments have fallen, the Bill still does not even 5.17 pm mention supply chain diversification or the diversification Stephen Flynn: I am a strong believer that brevity is a taskforce, even though we all agree that we cannot have great charm of eloquence, so that is a statement that a robust and secure network with only two service would be well taken on board by the shadow Minister in providers, which is the number that we will have left future. I was hoping for a power cut in Newcastle—I am once Huawei is removed from our networks. being kind. I am going to say this once more for the Minister: we First, I place on record my thanks to my hon. Friend need a diversified supply chain and that means a diversity the Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) for his of suppliers at different points of the supply chain. partaking in the debate on Second Reading. He did us a Britain has great start-ups that are just desperate to great service in that regard. I also thank Josh Simmonds- help address this issue. Where is the support for them? Upton in our research team, who put a great deal of The future of telecoms networks is moving away from effort into the Bill. closed, proprietary boxes to open interfaces and innovation This is a Bill that we will support. We will give it close in the cloud. That provides a real opportunity for some scrutiny moving forward, and I hope that the Government of our innovative companies, but the Government have will work on good terms with the Scottish Government still not laid out how this is to be realised, as their own moving forward in this regard. diversification taskforce report recently made clear. Is the UK going to benefit from the costly debacle of Question put and agreed to. ripping out Huawei—an integrated supplier? Right now, Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. the only beneficiaries would appear to be Ericsson, Nokia and lawyers. We put the Government on notice Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I am going to that we will be holding them to account on that. suggest that as we go through the next motions, the Thirdly, the Bill gives sweeping new powers and Serjeant at Arms sanitises just the Government Dispatch responsibilities to Ofcom. This follows a vast and continuing Box in order for us to save a little time. expansion of Ofcom’s remit. Ofcom lacks experience in national security, and changes to its duties will require Business without Debate the recruitment of people with the required level of security clearance and experience. The Minister and the Government have sought to evade scrutiny on that. We DELEGATED LEGISLATION (INFORMATION will seek to hold them to account. As part of that, we COMMISSIONER (REMUNERATION)) are very concerned that the Bill in its current form is not Ordered, forward thinking enough. It lacks the processes to That the Motion in the name of Mr John Whittingdale relating provide the foresight needed to ensure that we are not in to Information Commissioner (Remuneration) shall be treated as this same position again. Where is the horizon-scanning if it related to an instrument subject to the provisions of Standing function to identify emerging threats and potential Order No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees) in respect of weaknesses in UK telecoms providers’ asset registers? If which notice has been given that the instrument be approved.— our networks became dependent on one cloud service (.) provider, such as Amazon Web Services, how would we know? FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO INDUSTRY To conclude, we support the Bill as a necessary Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing measure to protect our telecoms national security interests, Order No. 118(6) and Order, 18 May), but we are concerned that the Government have allowed That this House authorises the Secretary of State to undertake ideology to undermine effectiveness when it comes to to pay, and to pay by way of financial assistance under Section 8 this Bill, and we will continue to seek to improve it. of the Industrial Development Act 1982, compensation to Business Schools in respect of a proportion of the indirect costs of funding the Help to Grow Management programme up to a limit of 5.15 pm £220 million over three years.—(Rebecca Harris.) Bob Stewart: I agree with the hon. Member for Newcastle Question agreed to. upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah): this is a Bill to try Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing to block hostile states and organisations from breaching Order No. 118(6) and Order, 18 May), our national security, and its intentions are absolutely That this House authorises the Secretary of State to undertake on target, and all of us agree with them. to pay, and to pay by way of financial assistance under section 8 I do not believe that we will not have to revisit parts of the Industrial Development Act 1982, sums exceeding £30 million of the Bill to ensure that in the end Parliament is with an estimated total sum of £44 million, to be made available, sovereign over information. For instance, it does not through the renewed Airport and Ground Operations Support seem right that Ministers and Ministries keep the Scheme announced in the 2021 Budget, to eligible commercial airports and ground operators to compensate for the damage caused by information to themselves and it is not passed on, albeit covid-19, on the basis of business rates liabilities or covid-19 in redacted form or through the ISC. losses – whichever is lower – from April-September 2021, subject We have to get oversight right, so in the end we may to certain conditions and a cap of £4 million per eligible company.— have to revisit the legislation in the next few months and (Rebecca Harris.) years as a result of the experience we have. I hope Question agreed to. 329 Business without Debate 25 MAY 2021 330

COMMITEES NHS Dentistry: Waveney Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With the leave do now adjourn.—(Rebecca Harris.) of the House, we will take motions 5 to 7 together. Ordered, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Can I just pause a second to ask those who are leaving to do so in BACKBENCH BUSINESS a covid-friendly manner, and to give the Minister an That Imran Ahmad Khan, Gareth Bacon, Bob Blackman, Patricia Gibson, David Johnston, Nigel Mills and Kate Osborne opportunity to come in? There we go. be members of the Backbench Business Committee. 5.21 pm EUROPEAN STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS That Owen Thompson be discharged from the European Statutory Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy Instruments Committee and Richard Thomson be added. Speaker. There has been an underlying problem with NHS FINANCE dentistry in the Lowestoft and Waveney area for a long That Lilian Greenwood be discharged from the Finance Committee time, with dentists retiring, leading to resources and dental and Mr Nicholas Brown be added.—(Bill Wiggin [V], on behalf capacity being taken away from the area, notwithstanding of the Committee of Selection.) the need and demand for NHS dentistry. Many, but not all, of the remaining practices have difficulties in recruiting HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE and retaining dentists. The situation has been exacerbated Ordered, by a lack of funding, with net Government spending on That Neale Hanvey be discharged from the Health and Social general dental practice reduced by a third over the past Care Committee and Anum Qaisar-Javed be added.—(Bill Wiggin decade. In recent months the situation has reached [V], on behalf of the Committee of Selection.) crisis point, due partly to covid but primarily to the closure due to retirement of two NHS dentist practices JOINT COMMITTEE ON STATUTORY in Lowestoft and the closure of the mydentist practice INSTRUMENTS at Leiston in the constituency of my right hon. Friend Ordered, the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey). The latter That Owen Thompson be discharged from the Joint Committee was due to the difficulty of recruiting dentists to work on Statutory Instruments and Richard Thomson be added.— in the area. (Bill Wiggin [V], on behalf of the Committee of Selection.) This is a national crisis. Official figures in March 2020 showed that 26% of new patients could not get access to JUSTICE an NHS dentist. The situation has worsened during Ordered, covid, with more than 20 million NHS dental appointments That Kenny MacAskill be discharged from the Justice Committee lost nationally since the start of the pandemic. As has and Angela Crawley be added.—(Bill Wiggin [V], on behalf of been reported today, the British Dental Association’s the Committee of Selection.) members survey reveals that almost half the respondents intend to stop working in NHS dentistry in the next COMMITTEES 12 months, and two thirds estimate that they will not meet the new 60% activity targets they have been set. Mr Deputy Speaker: With the leave of the House, we This is the worst survey that the BDA has ever carried will take motions 11 to 13 together. out, and urgent action is required to stop dentists Ordered, leaving the NHS in their droves. The situation is worse in Waveney. Community Dental PROCEDURE Services, an employee-led social enterprise, has recently That Douglas Ross be discharged from the Procedure Committee and Gary Sambrook be added. opened a new dental clinic in the old magistrates court in Lowestoft. That investment is greatly welcomed, PUBLIC ACCOUNTS although CDS highlights the challenges that it is facing That Sir be discharged from the Committee of in the area. It is concerned about the lack of access to Public Accounts and Mr and Antony Higginbotham NHS dental services. Lowestoft and Waveney is an area be added. of high need for dental services, yet there is a serious lack of provision, which has been exacerbated by the WOMEN AND EQUALITIES backlog caused by covid and, as I have mentioned, by That Angela Crawley be discharged from the Women and the retirement of well-established local general practitioners. Equalities Committee and Anne McLaughlin be added.—(Bill Wiggin The perceived remote location of the Waveney area and [V], on behalf of the Committee of Selection.) the distance from all the existing centres of dental training make recruitment difficult. CDS emphasises the need for a focus on prevention, particularly among children. The treatment of children under general anaesthetic for the removal of teeth that cannot be saved is the highest cause of admittance to hospital for general anaesthetic treatment in England and Wales. CDS advises that the reduction in local authority funding to support targeted or universal prevention—I am not attacking local authorities for this—has had a significant impact on the Waveney 331 NHS Dentistry: Waveney25 MAY 2021 NHS Dentistry: Waveney 332 population due to reduced oral health improvement Healthwatch Suffolk— services. This limits CDS’s ability to reach out to all the “that they required urgent hospital treatment after overdosing on people who need its services. painkillers to combat their symptoms,” The impact on young people needs particular focus. while another In Suffolk, the proportion of children who saw an NHS “told us they couldn’t find a dentist to treat a tooth which had dentist fell by half due to the pandemic: 60% in 2019 reached a point where it was decaying.” compared with just 31% in 2020. This translates to 43,000 local children missing out on their dental appointments (North Norfolk) (Con): I confess I compared with the year before. CDS, which is a paediatric have a slight self-interest in this, because my father was dental specialist, has a high number of referrals from the NHS dentist in Fakenham for 34 years. The problems other practices of children with multiple decayed teeth in North Norfolk with dentistry are terrible, with long that require complex treatment, quite often under general waiting lists and people not being able to be seen. The anaesthetic. The lack of general dental services locally Healthwatch report from the past day or so corroborates makes safe discharge difficult, if not impossible, thereby that. It strikes me that the contracts are some of the creating further pressure on services. This has a devastating root causes of that, as is the disparity between the impact on children’s life chances, and could well prevent private and public sectors. What can we do to try to get them from achieving the best start in life. more people to join this profession? I have one example Covid has made the situation worse. The interruption in North Norfolk where, for more than 10 years, no of routine dental care and the subsequent reduction in newly recruited dentist has wanted to come and work at patient appointments has created a backlog of patients. the surgery. The pandemic has also meant the cancellation of and significant interruption to the dental general anaesthetic Peter Aldous: I thank my hon. Friend for that list at the James Paget Hospital at Gorleston in the intervention. The situation is very bad in Waveney. It is constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for also bad in other parts of East Anglia, not least in North Great Yarmouth (), which causes greater Norfolk and in the constituency of my hon. Friend the problems. The list will recommence on 1 June, and the Member for Peterborough (). It is particularly backlog of patients needing urgent care is substantial, bad in East Anglia, and one reason for that is that we but this increases the pressure on dental practices, which are perhaps a little away from the centre of things, and have responsibilities for their patients’ dental care. It it can be difficult to recruit people to work in the area. should also be pointed out that there has been no My hon. Friend is right that one solution is to reform consultant orthodontist at the James Paget since mid-2020, the existing contract, which dates from 2006, and I will resulting in patients having to travel further for care, come on to that as I look at some short and long-term and for children this disrupts their education. solutions that need to be instigated immediately. I am receiving approximately 10 emails a week from In the short term, I urge my hon. Friend and Suffolk constituents, many of whom are in agony, looking for colleague the Minister to take the following actions. an NHS dentist. Some will go private, but for many who First, we must reduce units of dental activity targets. are on relatively low wages this option is not open to The previous target of 20% was appropriate, but the them and is one they cannot afford. One constituent has new 45% target is wholly unrealistic. Many practices been quoted £2,400 for a new front tooth and £2,000 for will be forced substantially to reduce the number of a bridge repair. Others who are in need of urgent attention, emergency cases that they provide and to replace them as I have mentioned, go to A&E at the James Paget in with routine check-ups that are less time-consuming, Gorleston. There, all that the exasperated consultants resulting in an even longer backlog of outstanding can do is to prescribe them antibiotics and painkillers. emergency and urgent care cases. This is completely unacceptable. Another constituent, Money that is currently clawed back by the NHS if who had a new denture fitted in 2019, needed it to be dentists do not deliver UDAs must be reinvested in the adjusted as it made his mouth sore and had a poor bite. Waveney area. Dentists under-delivering does not indicate He had no option but to use his old dentures, which low local demand, and any clawback should be reinvested were worn down and had a tooth missing. He has only into local dental services, not transferred to other areas. just seen a dentist and is now awaiting the new dentures. That situation is particularly prevalent in East Anglia. These are just a few cases that highlight the agonies that In 2019-20, 9.1% of total contract value was clawed many people are going through. back in the region, compared with 4.8% nationally Andy Yacoub, the chief executive of Healthwatch across England. Suffolk, summarised the situation well. He said: I confess that I do not completely understand the “We are living through a dental disaster, with little to no clear opaque world of UDAs, but I know that the system is sign of when these problems will ease.” short-changing my constituents, many of whom are in agony. For children, there could well be lifelong He also said: consequences. Some NHS dentistry practices in the “This latest review by Healthwatch England strongly supports Waveney and Norfolk area want to take on more patients, our own local view that there is huge inequality in the availability but they are not able to do so as the UDAs are not of NHS dental care amongst our population…This includes that available. John Plummer & Associates is a privately some people have waited unreasonable lengths of time to get an owned family dental practice with 10 NHS practices in NHS dentist appointment, while being told private appointments were available within a week.” Norfolk and Waveney. As NHS dental practices in the Lowestoft area have closed in recent years, dentists In Suffolk, he said that we are being from those practices have joined John Plummer. Naturally, “inundated by feedback on a daily basis from those struggling to their patients would like to follow them, but because no access these services. One individual revealed to us”— more UDAs are now available, the dentists have been 333 NHS Dentistry: Waveney25 MAY 2021 NHS Dentistry: Waveney 334

[Peter Aldous] leaving NHS dentistry. A new contract, focused on the oral health needs of patients and targeting improved unable to treat them, as they will not be able to provide access and preventive care, should replace it. adequate treatment for their regular patients. Those With regard to the forthcoming health and social UDAs are then lost to the Waveney area forever. So care Bill, with the commissioning of dentists set to move much more NHS dentistry could be provided in the to integrated care systems, it is vital that dentists have a Waveney area if more NHS dentistry was allowed. John voice and are properly represented on ICSs. There is a Plummer & Associates would open a walk-in emergency worry that the possible pooling of budgets across primary NHS dental service, but it is not able to do so as it is not care could lead to further cuts to NHS dentistry, and allowed to do any more NHS work. everything must be done to ensure that this does not The continuing problem with covid is limiting the happen. number of people that dentists can see each day. That Fluoridation of water can play a key preventive role can be eased by installing high-capacity ventilators in in oral health, and it is very important that changes to dental surgeries. That will reduce the period between the framework under which fluoridation schemes are appointments, during which the rooms are cleaned, but carried out are accompanied by the capital funding that most practices cannot afford that. I recognise that there is necessary for those schemes to actually be put in place. is quite a bit of devil in the detail, but the Government I anticipate that we will consider this matter in more can directly increase access to NHS dentistry by providing detail over the next few weeks when we debate the Bill. capital funding for this equipment, as the devolved I now come to the topic of new dental contract Administrations in Wales and Northern Ireland plan arrangements. As mentioned, underlying most of the to do. problems of NHS dentistry is the fact that the current contract, which dates from 2006, is inadequate and now In the long term, root-and-branch reforms need to be completely unfit for purpose. It must be replaced as instigated immediately. There is a need to get more quickly as possible. The BDA is looking for this to NHS dentists practising in this area, and the Association happen by April 2022 at the latest, and the new contract of Dental Groups has put forward a six-point plan to must break with the units of dental activity, ensure that achieve this. First, the number of training places should NHS dentistry is available to all those who need it and be increased. Earlier this month, Healthwatch Norfolk prioritise preventive care. called for a dental school to be set up: based in Norwich, it would be able to serve the Waveney area and, indeed, My hon. Friend and Suffolk colleague the Minister is the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for faced with a major task. From her perspective, it is North Norfolk (Duncan Baker). As quickly as possible, unfortunate that the music has stopped on her watch. In the Government must instigate a recruitment drive, summary, there are three things we need to be doing. I increasing the number of UK dentistry training places urge her, in the very near future, to provide practices, and introducing incentives for dentists to relocate to such as John Plummer & Associates, that will tackle the areas such as Suffolk and Norfolk. enormous the backlog of work with the resources to do so. We must end the cycle of retirements leading to Secondly, EU-trained dentists should be recognised. funds being removed from the Waveney area, never to Their role is vital, and there must be continued access to return. Secondly, we must tackle the growing scandal of NHS dentistry for EU-trained professionals, thereby children having to undergo major dental surgery. That preventing further shortfalls from arising. Thirdly,overseas requires much work in the short term in hospitals such qualifications should be recognised. The General Dental as James Paget University Hospital, but in the longer Council’s recognition of dental qualifications should be term the introduction of major public awareness preventive automatically extended to approved dental schools outside initiatives is vital. Thirdly, the dysfunctional 2006 contract the European economic area, ensuring a smooth process should be replaced as soon as possible. for suitably qualified dentists to work in the UK—notably those from countries such as India. That should also 5.40 pm include the doubling of places available under the overseas registration examinations. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (): First, I congratulate my Fourthly,the complex and lengthy process of completing hon. Friend and Suffolk colleague the Member for the performers list validation by experience examinations— Waveney (Peter Aldous) on securing time for this important known as the PLVE—for overseas dentists should be debate. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member speeded up, simplified and harmonised right across the for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker), who for the second country, with additional measures introduced to ensure time today has spoken about the challenges of dentistry that the process takes no longer than eight weeks. that we have. Fifthly, whole dentistry teams should be allowed to As my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney said, initiate treatments. Allied dental professionals are, at this is not a new problem; it was a problem and challenge present, not able to open a course of treatment. This pre-covid. The pandemic has definitely shone a light, means that they cannot raise a claim for payment of and things have become much more challenging in the work delivered, with many practices unable to fully world of dental provision during the pandemic. Dentistry utilise therapists as a result; allowing whole dentistry has been significantly impacted because of the risks teams to initiate treatments would address this problem. associated with the aerosol-generating procedure that dentists do and, obviously, with the saliva generated The Association of Dental Groups’sixth and final point when someone is carrying out a procedure on someone is that the Government should create a new strategy to else’s mouth. In response, dental practitioners have promote NHS workforce retention. They must reform been required to wear full personal protective equipment the NHS contract, which is the major driver of dentists to keep them, their teams and their patients safe. 335 NHS Dentistry: Waveney25 MAY 2021 NHS Dentistry: Waveney 336

Public Health England is reviewing the current guidance to them, to activity that focuses on priority areas, such on infection prevention and control. I mention this as improving access to urgent care, or targeting high-risk because it goes to my hon. Friend’s point on fallow patients, which was exactly what he was asking us to time—the time between the dentist putting their instrument look at in his speech. We are already doing that. It is down and cleaning down their room, and then seeing good practice and regional commissioners can implement the next patient. These things have been big constraints it. I am very keen to make sure that that practice is in trying to have a rapid throughput of patients through being used as much as it possibly can be. I am having the consulting room. Fallow time now is as low as very frequent discussions with NHS England to make 10 minutes in many cases, although that does depend on sure that we are monitoring the use of these measures. material factors such as the ventilation and so on. As well as flexible commissioning, support is also I am talking to NHS England about the use of available to local NHS commissioners to put that capacity ventilation and the ability to support dental practices in where we need it most. In the east of England, NHS putting ventilation in, but I gently point out that what England has developed the transformational dental strategy, sounds easy in a sentence in this place is often challenging. the aim of which is to prioritise urgent care, prevention The buildings are not always owned by the dental and inequalities. Despite our efforts to increase services, practices, and in order to put ventilation systems in we we know that patients are still experiencing acute difficulty have to take the rooms being used to deliver care out. So in finding an NHS dentist—that is also true in my there is that combination of challenges, but there is new constituency. research on ventilation and lighting, and we are constantly A feature of the debates that we have had today is the looking at these things to see how we can further availability of private provision in areas where there is support the profession. no NHS provision. NHS England is charged with An important step forward has been to reduce the commissioning to the need in an area. Making sure that amount of time between seeing patients, in order to we commission to the need in an area is something that facilitate more care for more patients, but we have taken contract change, which I am very keen to see delivered the action we have because infection control sits at the by April 2022, addresses, but it is highly complex. I have heart of what we have to do. I stress that because, with met stakeholders in the UK. Some people suggest that the variant of concern in some of our towns and cities the Welsh system is better. Others favour the French around the country, we have to very mindful that we are system or the one that exists in some of the Scandinavian looking for progress as to how we proceed with dentistry. countries. I have met members of the dental profession I agree with much of what my hon. Friend said about from all those places and, actually, no one has a perfect making sure we are looking for opportunities, but we system. We are trying to take what is good about the have to be mindful of the fact that we are not yet clear various systems and ensure that we deliver in localities of this pandemic, and that brings enormous constraints. so that people can have access to care when they need it, The thresholds that have been set for dental practices with a particular focus on prevention. since the start of the year have been based on data on We have a web-based programme in the east called what is achievable while also complying with infection service provider, which provides up-to-date information prevention and control. My hon. Friend alluded to the on dental services that are available. Patients experiencing 45%, which was the level of dental activity placed on difficulties are able to contact NHS England’s customer practices in the fourth quarter of last year. That figure care centre and call 111 for help in accessing emergency is now 60%, and 80% through orthodontics. This is the dental care. All NHS dental practices in the east of tension that exists in this whole area. Sixty per cent is England have been asked to reserve at least one slot per still 40% lower than what we delivered in pre-covid day for urgent dental care to improve capacity and, as times—obviously. The challenge is to make sure that we my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney said, allow are able to see the backlog, that we drive forward with greater access. In addition, we have not stood down the looking after the most vulnerable and those with the 600 urgent dental centres that we had across the country highest degree of need, and that we do not lose ground during the height of the pandemic; we have left those in on what has gone before, while also having to deal with place, and we have a network of them across both complexities such as retirements and contracts coming Norfolk and Suffolk. back and so on and so forth. However defective the However, we know that information on NHS dentists 2006 UDA contract is, it is not just a question of is not always easy to access. Alongside increasing access swapping one for the other. for patients, it is crucial to support NHS dental practices The current thresholds are monitored on a monthly and mixed practices—and, arguably, private practices—in basis, and the new thresholds have been put in place for order that we can start to have a more balanced approach. six months. Dental practices have been asked to deliver As my hon. Friends the Member for Waveney and for as much care as possible,prioritising urgent care,particularly North Norfolk mentioned, part of the challenge that for vulnerable groups. They are delaying planned care, we have is retention. That is the case particularly in our ensuring that they are dealing on a needs basis with area, but it is something that I have discussed with those in the most acute need. Cornish colleagues too; my hon. Friend the Member for In addition to these activity thresholds, NHS England St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double) and I have has provided a flexible commissioning toolkit. I am discussed at length how the problem is not unique to the very keen for the profession to get real-world examples east of England. of what can help deliver the service, based on the Practices have continued to receive their full contract successes that have been achieved locally. Some of those payments minus agreed deductions, providing that levels successes have been achieved in our own particular of activity are met. An exceptions process has also been area. Flexible commissioning is used to convert units of put in place for practices that have been disproportionately dental activity, or UDAs as my hon. Friend has referred impacted by the pandemic. It is wrong to say that we 337 NHS Dentistry: Waveney25 MAY 2021 NHS Dentistry: Waveney 338

[Jo Churchill] Health Education England’s Advancing Dental Care programme has also been exploring opportunities for want anyone to feel that they are not supported to flexible dental training pathways and how we train our deliver what they can. We have also made personal dental workforce to improve recruitment and retention. protective equipment available free of charge through a I am also very keen to make sure that we use the broader dedicated portal; and as of a week ago, we had delivered dental team as efficiently as we can, because dental more than 367 million items free to dentists, orthodontists technicians, dental nurses, hygienists and so on hold and their teams. many skills that, particularly,could be used for prevention. However, with another hat in my portfolio on, I think of If it has done anything, the pandemic has continued the obesity agenda and making sure that we all look to highlight the fact that transformation in dentistry is after ourselves a bit better and have healthier lifestyles. necessary, particularly if we want to make sure that we Everything that we consume goes in through our mouths. drill down on the oral health inequalities that exist Dentists are wonderfully placed, as are their teams, to across the country.I am meeting the chair of Healthwatch help to encourage us to have a healthier lifestyle and to tomorrow, and I am sure that, among other things, we eat a little less sugar. will discuss access to dentistry at some length. We need to develop a sustainable, long-term approach to dentistry We remain committed to prevention and improving that is responsive to the population. It needs to provide oral health, and I am pleased that my hon. Friend the high-quality, urgent treatment and then restorative care Member for Waveney supports—I think, from his asks—the where clinically necessary, but prevention must sit at its direction that we are trying to go in by changing the UDAs, core. concentrating on making sure that we have the skill mix right, focusing on prevention and looking at retention. The majority of oral health failures are preventable. As he said, however, this is a complex area. I am also My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney spoke about having discussions with the GDC—he spoke about children. There is nothing more upsetting than a child recognising dentists who have trained overseas and being in acute pain and having all their teeth removed. making sure that once we are assured of standards of That is a broader problem. Through flexible commissioning, education and so on, things are a bit simpler. we can ensure that we are doing supervised tooth brushing On making sure that we can expand schemes, subject by encouraging local authorities to put that in, but we to funding being secured and consulted on, I want to can also enable parents to do their part and ensure that look at the expansion of fluoridated water. As my hon. they can help their children learn good habits right Friend said, it is one of the simplest ways that we can from the early days. Parents can encourage their children improve oral health intervention, and we could significantly to look after their teeth by rubbing their gums before improve children’s health across the country. It is their teeth even appear, making sure that they understand unacceptable in this day and age that young children how important it is. have total dental clearances due to preventable tooth In addition, any system that we design must improve decay. The return on investment on fluoridation is very patient access and oral health, and offer value for money compelling and there needs to be a renewed focus on the for the taxpayer. It must also be designed in conjunction investment in prevention. with, and be attractive to, the profession. NHSE is We are committed to increasing dental access both in leading on dental contract reform work. Importantly, it the short and the long term so that we can ensure is engaging with stakeholders, including the ADG, which equality of access no matter where in the country a my hon. Friend spoke about. It will be looking at what patient lives. But this is complex. We are working hard changes can be made to dental contracts in the short at it. We are working with the profession, but we all term to offer some improvements and some relief and need to double down both on prevention and making respite to everyone, while details of the next stage of sure that we are all walking in the same direction to reform will be agreed by April 2022. Making NHS bring accessible oral healthcare to people. dental contracts more attractive to the profession will Question put and agreed to. help with vital recruitment and retention, and I know that all my hon. Friends in the Chamber, particularly 5.57 pm across rural and coastal areas, will welcome that. House adjourned. 339 25 MAY 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 340

Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

The following is the list of Members currently certified (Rossendale and Darwen) as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated (Con) as their proxy: Clive Betts ( South East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Saqib Bhatti (Meriden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire Owen Thompson South) (SNP) Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Bell Ribeiro-Addy Stoke Newington) (Lab) Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Owen Thompson Lochaber) (SNP) Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Chris Elmore Saddleworth) (Lab) Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Selby and Ainsty) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) Owen Thompson (SNP) (Hitchin and Harpenden) Stuart Andrew (Con) Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Windsor) (Con) Stuart Andrew Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) Chris Elmore (Lab) Imran Ahmad Khan () (Con) Stuart Andrew Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Stuart Andrew (Reigate) (Con) Stuart Andrew Westminster) (Con) Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Chris Elmore Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston Owen Thompson Bow) (Lab) and Bellshill) (SNP) Tahir Ali (, Hall Green) Chris Elmore Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Stuart Andrew Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Moorlands) (Con) Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Fareham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir (Southend West) Stuart Andrew Kevin Brennan ( West) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) Stuart Andrew Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew (North West Stuart Andrew Stuart Anderson ( Stuart Andrew Leicestershire) (Con) South West) (Con) (Winchester) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Eastbourne) (Con) Stuart Andrew Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con) Stuart Andrew Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con) Stuart Andrew Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Owen Thompson Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) Chris Elmore Leith) (SNP) (Lab) James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Stuart Andrew Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sidcup) (Con) Victoria Atkins (Louth and Stuart Andrew Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudon) Owen Thompson Horncastle) (Con) (SNP) Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) Stuart Andrew Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Chris Elmore (Con) Tyne East) (Lab) (Saffron Walden) Stuart Andrew Anthony Browne (South Stuart Andrew (Con) Cambridgeshire) (Con) Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con) Stuart Andrew Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Rhondda) (Lab) Chris Elmore Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) Stuart Andrew Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) Chris Elmore Steve Barclay (North East Stuart Andrew (Lab) Cambridgeshire) (Con) (South Swindon) Stuart Andrew Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP) Owen Thompson (Con) Paula Barker (Liverpool, Wavertree) Chris Elmore (Brentwood and Ongar) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Mr (Basildon and Stuart Andrew Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Billericay) (Con) Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) Stuart Andrew Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Margaret Beckett ( South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Apsana Begum (Poplar and Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Aylesbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Limehouse) (Lab) Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) Chris Elmore Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Chris Elmore Sir (Mole Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Isleworth) (Lab) 341 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote25 MAY 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 342

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) Stuart Andrew Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con) Stuart Andrew Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) Owen Thompson (Chatham and Stuart Andrew (SNP) Aylesford) (Con) Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Owen Thompson Jon Cruddas ( and Chris Elmore Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP) Rainham) (Lab) Sir Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Con) Chris Elmore John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) Chris Elmore Mr Gregory Campbell (East Sammy Wilson (Lab) Londonderry) (DUP) Judith Cummins (Bradford South) Chris Elmore Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Mr Alistair Carmichael (rt. hon.) Wendy Chamberlain Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) Chris Elmore (Orkney and Shetland) (LD) (Lab) Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) Chris Elmore (South Suffolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew James Daly (Bury North) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) Wendy Chamberlain (Penistone and Stuart Andrew (LD) Stocksbridge) (Con) (Caerphilly) (Lab) Chris Elmore Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Gareth Davies (Grantham and Stuart Andrew Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and Owen Thompson Stamford) (Con) West Fife) (SNP) Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Chris Elmore Co-op) Southgate) (Lab) Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con) Stuart Andrew Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) Owen Thompson (Mid Sussex) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Gillingham and Stuart Andrew (Shipley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rainham) (Con) Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Stuart Andrew Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) Mr William Wragg Howden) (Con) (Con) Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) Jo Churchill (Bury St Edmunds) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Owen Thompson Mr Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough Stuart Andrew Falkirk) (SNP) South and East Cleveland) (Con) Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) Chris Elmore Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) Stuart Andrew Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Con) Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) Chris Elmore Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Stuart Andrew (Lab) Middleton) (Con) (Gosport) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Braintree) (Con) Stuart Andrew Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) Stuart Andrew Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Mr (Huntingdon) Stuart Andrew Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Stuart Andrew (Con) Wallington) (Con) (Aldershot) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Folkestone and Stuart Andrew Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Owen Thompson Hythe) (Con) Dunbartonshire) (SNP) Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab) Chris Elmore Co-op) Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract Chris Elmore Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Sammy Wilson and Castleford) (Lab) Valley) (DUP) ( North) (Ind) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Michelle Donelan (Chippenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) Stuart Andrew Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP) Owen Thompson (Con) Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Owen Thompson (Witney) (Con) Stuart Andrew Cumnock) (SNP) Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ms (Mid Bedfordshire) Stuart Andrew (Con) Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP) Owen Thompson Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) Stuart Andrew Sir Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Stuart Andrew (Con) Devon) (Con) (Cardiff South and Chris Elmore Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Chris Elmore Penarth) (Lab) ) (Lab) Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Hertsmere) (Con) Stuart Andrew Angela Crawley (Lanark and Hamilton Owen Thompson Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con) Stuart Andrew East) (SNP) Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con) Stuart Andrew 343 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote25 MAY 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 344

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Jack Dromey (Birmingham, ) Chris Elmore (South East Stuart Andrew (Lab) Cambridgeshire) (Con) Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) Stuart Andrew George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Stuart Andrew (Rochford and Stuart Andrew Green) (Con) Southend East) (Con) Richard Fuller (North East Stuart Andrew Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) (Lab) Chris Elmore Bedfordshire) (Con) Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Stuart Andrew Gill Furniss (Sheffield, Brightside and Chris Elmore Woodford Green) (Con) Hillsborough) (Lab) Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) Stuart Andrew Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sir (North Thanet) (Con) Stuart Andrew Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) Chris Elmore Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con) Stuart Andrew Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP) Ben Lake Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Bognor Regis and Stuart Andrew Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East Stuart Andrew Littlehampton) (Con) and Dinefwr) (Ind) Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Owen Thompson Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con) Stuart Andrew Arran) (SNP) Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con) Stuart Andrew Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) Stuart Andrew Michael Ellis (Northampton North) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth Stuart Andrew Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op) East) (Con) Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP) Sammy Wilson Mrs (Dover) (Con) Stuart Andrew John Glen (Salisbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab) Chris Elmore op) Mr (Scarborough and Stuart Andrew Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Whitby) (Con) (Camborne and Stuart Andrew (Surrey Heath) (Con) Stuart Andrew Redruth) (Con) Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP) Owen Thompson Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op) Chris Elmore Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mrs (Maidstone and The Stuart Andrew Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Stuart Andrew Weald) (Con) Crayford) (Con) Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) Owen Thompson Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Epsom and Ewell) Stuart Andrew Tim Farron (Westmorland and Wendy Chamberlain (Con) Lonsdale) (LD) (Ashford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) Wendy Chamberlain Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) Chris Elmore Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Owen Thompson Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) Chris Elmore Wishaw) (Con) (Lab) Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Stuart Andrew Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Stuart Andrew Hamilton West) (Ind) Downs) (Con) Colleen Fletcher (Coventry North East) Chris Elmore (Llanelli) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Kate Griffiths (Burton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) Stuart Andrew James Grundy (Leigh) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent Stuart Andrew Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con) Stuart Andrew North) (Con) Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Chris Elmore Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) Owen Thompson Reddish) (Lab) (SNP) Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Chelmsford) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Harlow) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con) Stuart Andrew Luke Hall (Thornbury and Yate) (Con) Stuart Andrew Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab) Chris Elmore Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) Chris Elmore Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) Chris Elmore Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (West Suffolk) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) Stuart Andrew Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Stuart Andrew (Con) Wickford) (Con) Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP) Ben Lake 345 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote25 MAY 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 346

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Neil Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Kenny MacAskill Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) Wendy Chamberlain Cowdenbeath) (Alba) (LD) Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull Chris Elmore Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore West and Hessle) (Lab) (Bromsgrove) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Chris Elmore Mr (North East Stuart Andrew ) (Lab) Hampshire) (Con) Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and Stuart Andrew (Swansea East) (Lab) Chris Elmore North Essex) (Con) Trudy Harrison (Copeland) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mark Jenkinson (Workington) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) Stuart Andrew (Morley and Stuart Andrew (Con) Outwood) (Con) (Carmarthen West and Stuart Andrew (Newark) (Con) Stuart Andrew South Pembrokeshire) (Con) (Uxbridge and South Stuart Andrew Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Chris Elmore Ruislip) (Con) Norwood) (Lab) Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and Stuart Andrew Sir John Hayes (South Holland and Stuart Andrew North Hykeham) (Con) The Deepings) (Con) Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Sir (North East Stuart Andrew Hull North) (Lab) Hertfordshire) (Con) (Dartford) (Con) Stuart Andrew John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) Chris Elmore Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) James Heappey (Wells) (Con) Stuart Andrew David Johnston (Wantage) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con) Stuart Andrew Darren Jones (Bristol North West) Chris Elmore Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Stuart Andrew (Lab) Sheppey) (Con) Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) Stuart Andrew op) (Con) Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Owen Thompson (Merthyr Tydfil and Chris Elmore Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP) Rhymney) (Lab) Darren Henry (Broxtowe) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) Chris Elmore Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (East Hampshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab) Chris Elmore Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Chris Elmore Mike Kane ( and Sale Chris Elmore Sunderland West) (Lab) East) (Lab) Mr Richard Holden (North West Stuart Andrew Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Stuart Andrew Durham) (Con) Atcham) (Con) Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab) Chris Elmore Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) Stuart Andrew (Thirsk and Malton) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) (Chichester) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Gravesham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles Chris Elmore Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con) Stuart Andrew South) (Lab) Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stewart Hosie ( East) (SNP) Owen Thompson Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) Chris Elmore (Lab) Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Henley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir (East Yorkshire) (Con) Stuart Andrew Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Julian Knight () (Con) Stuart Andrew Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) Stuart Andrew (Con) Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con) Stuart Andrew Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Stuart Andrew Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con) Stuart Andrew Border) (Con) Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab) Chris Elmore Eddie Hughes ( North) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab) Chris Elmore Jane Hunt (Loughborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh Stuart Andrew Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) Stuart Andrew and Selkirk) (Con) (Con) Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con) Stuart Andrew Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) Stuart Andrew Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP) Owen Thompson Mr (Dumfries and Stuart Andrew (South Stuart Andrew Galloway) (Con) Northamptonshire) (Con) 347 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote25 MAY 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 348

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) Stuart Andrew Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na Owen Thompson (Con) h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Chris Elmore Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con) Stuart Andrew Shields) (Lab) Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Chris Elmore Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) Stuart Andrew Neston) (Lab) (Con) Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Chris Elmore Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) Stuart Andrew Barr) (Lab) (Con) Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ladywood) (Lab) Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) Stuart Andrew () (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) Chris Elmore Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater Stuart Andrew (Lab) and West Somerset) (Con) Kit Malthouse (North West Stuart Andrew David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP) Owen Thompson Hampshire) (Con) Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Hertford and Stortford) Stuart Andrew Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP) Sammy Wilson (Con) Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con) Anthony Mangnall Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Mark Logan (Bolton North East) Stuart Andrew Christian Matheson (City of ) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Bell Ribeiro-Addy Mrs (Maidenhead) (Con) Stuart Andrew Eccles) (Lab) (Broadland) (Con) Stuart Andrew Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con) Stuart Andrew Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Stuart Andrew Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Stuart Andrew Cleveleys) (Con) Upminster) (Con) Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stuart Andrew Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) Stuart Andrew Stoke) (Con) (Bexhill and Battle) Stuart Andrew Mr (Woking) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) (East Worthing and Stuart Andrew Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and Stuart Andrew Shoreham) (Con) East Thurrock) (Con) Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) Chris Elmore (Green) (Lab) Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab) Chris Elmore Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con) Stuart Andrew Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Chris Elmore Mrs (Basingstoke) (Con) Stuart Andrew Oak) (Lab) (Cannock Chase) Stuart Andrew Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con) Stuart Andrew Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Chris Elmore Navendu Mishra () (Lab) Chris Elmore Morden) (Lab) Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) Stuart Andrew Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) (South West Stuart Andrew Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow Owen Thompson Hertfordshire) (Con) South) (SNP) Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North Owen Thompson Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Owen Thompson West) Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) Damien Moore () (Con) Stuart Andrew John McDonnell (Hayes and Bell Ribeiro-Addy Harlington) (Lab) Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton Chris Elmore Layla Moran (Oxford West and Wendy Chamberlain South East) (Lab) Abingdon) (LD) Conor McGinn (St Helens North) Chris Elmore ( North) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Stephen Morgan (Portsmouth South) Chris Elmore (South Thanet) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Chris Elmore Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) Stuart Andrew Tyne North) (Lab) (Con) (Truro and Stuart Andrew David Morris (Morecambe and Stuart Andrew Falmouth) (Con) Lunesdale) (Con) Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North Owen Thompson Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab) Chris Elmore East) (SNP) Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jill Mortimer (Hartlepool) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Chris Elmore Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) Stuart Andrew Royton) (Lab) (Con) Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Stuart Andrew John Mc Nally (Falkirk) (SNP) Owen Thompson Nantwich) (Con) 349 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote25 MAY 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 350

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Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) Stuart Andrew Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Chris Elmore (Con) Sunderland South) (Lab) David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Stuart Andrew Chris Philp (Croydon South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con) Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab) Chris Elmore Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Chris Elmore James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore Devonport) (Lab/Co-op) op) Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and Peter Aldous Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Stuart Andrew North Ipswich) (Con) Cornwall) (Con) Rebecca Pow (Taunton Deane) (Con) Stuart Andrew Andrew Murrison (South West Stuart Andrew Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) Chris Elmore Wiltshire) (Con) (Lab/Co-op) (Wigan) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Banbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Stuart Andrew Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chislehurst) (Con) Anum Qaisar-Javed (Airdrie and Owen Thompson Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Owen Thompson Shotts) (SNP) Renfrewshire North) (SNP) (Horsham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) Chris Elmore (Colchester) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Bolton South East) Chris Elmore (Great Grimsby) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) John Nicolson (Ochil and South Owen Thompson (Esher and Walton) Stuart Andrew Perthshire) (SNP) (Con) Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Stuart Andrew Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con) Stuart Andrew Southampton North) (Con) Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) Chris Elmore Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Stuart Andrew (Lab) Herefordshire) (Con) (Wokingham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alex Norris ( North) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Co-op) Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab/Co- Chris Elmore op) Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Neath) (Lab) Chris Elmore Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) Owen Thompson (SNP) Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Chris Elmore Penge) (Lab) Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con) Stuart Andrew Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Chris Elmore Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Chris Elmore Hyde) (Lab) Central) (Lab) Nicola Richards (West Bromwich East) Stuart Andrew (Hexham) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Chris Elmore (Guildford) (Con) Stuart Andrew ) (Lab) Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South Chris Elmore Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) Bell Ribeiro-Addy and Whiston) (Lab) Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) Owen Thompson Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) Stuart Andrew (SNP) (Con) Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) Chris Elmore Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP) Sammy Wilson (Lab) Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab) Chris Elmore Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP) Sammy Wilson Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) Stuart Andrew Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) Stuart Andrew (Witham) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) Stuart Andrew Dean Russell (Watford) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Chris Elmore Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con) Stuart Andrew Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op) Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) Chris Elmore Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Ben Lake (Lab) Meirionnydd) (PC) Sir (Hemel Hempstead) Stuart Andrew Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Paul Scully (Sutton and Cheam) (Con) Stuart Andrew Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Chris Elmore (Isle of Wight) (Con) Mark Harper Woolwich) (Lab) (South West Stuart Andrew John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) Stuart Andrew Bedfordshire) (Con) (Con) Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Brigg and Goole) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Welwyn Hatfield) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Reading West) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) Chris Elmore Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) 351 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote25 MAY 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 352

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Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) Chris Elmore Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) Owen Thompson (Lab/Co-op) (SNP) (Elmet and Rothwell) Stuart Andrew Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/ Chris Elmore Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) Owen Thompson Co-op) (SNP) Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab) Chris Elmore Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) Chris Elmore Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Chris Elmore (Lab) Finsbury) (Lab) David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood Stuart Andrew Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab) Chris Elmore and Pinner) (Con) Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Kingswood) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Rochester and Strood) Stuart Andrew Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Con) Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) Owen Thompson Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) Stuart Andrew Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) Stuart Andrew (Norwich North) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con) Stuart Andrew Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Berwick-upon- Stuart Andrew Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) Stuart Andrew Tweed) (Con) Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) Chris Elmore Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Lab) Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con) Stuart Andrew Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) Stuart Andrew (Con) Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) Stuart Andrew (Con) Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Tonbridge and Stuart Andrew (Southampton, Itchen) Stuart Andrew Malling) (Con) (Con) Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) Chris Elmore Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab) Chris Elmore Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab) Chris Elmore Amanda Solloway (Derby North) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mr (North West Stuart Andrew Cambridgeshire) (Con) Dr (Runnymede and Stuart Andrew Weybridge) (Con) (Cleethorpes) (Con) Stuart Andrew Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) Stuart Andrew Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) Stuart Andrew (Holborn and St Pancras) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con) Stuart Andrew Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) Owen Thompson Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con) Stuart Andrew (SNP) Mr (Wyre and Preston Stuart Andrew Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con) Stuart Andrew North) (Cardiff Central) (Lab) Chris Elmore Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North Stuart Andrew David Warburton (Somerset and Stuart Andrew East) (Con) Frome) (Con) John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con) Stuart Andrew Matt Warman (Boston and Skegness) Stuart Andrew Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) Stuart Andrew (Clacton) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con) Stuart Andrew Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Wendy Chamberlain Claudia Webbe (Leicester East) (Ind) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Easter Ross) (LD) Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Chris Elmore Sir (South West Devon) Stuart Andrew Green) (Lab) (Con) Matt Western (Warwick and Chris Elmore Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab) Chris Elmore Leamington) (Lab) Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Faversham and Mid Stuart Andrew Graham Stringer (Blackley and Chris Elmore Kent) (Con) Broughton) (Lab) Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Stuart Andrew Graham Stuart (Beverley and Stuart Andrew Derbyshire) (Con) Holderness) (Con) Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Chris Elmore (York Outer) (Con) Stuart Andrew Test) (Lab) Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Owen Thompson (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ayrshire) (SNP) James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab) Chris Elmore Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest Stuart Andrew (Calder Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew West) (Con) John Whittingdale (Malden) (Con) Stuart Andrew Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con) Stuart Andrew Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) Chris Elmore Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) 353 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote25 MAY 2021 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 354

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Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) Stuart Andrew Pete Wishart (Perth and North Owen Thompson (Con) Perthshire) (SNP) (North West Norfolk) Stuart Andrew Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Stuart Andrew Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) Stuart Andrew Southam) (Con) (Con) Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab) Chris Elmore Hywel Williams (Arfon) PC) Ben Lake Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Montgomeryshire) Stuart Andrew (Con) Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) Stuart Andrew (Con) Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Cynon Valley) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy 51WH 25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 52WH

He covered Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and Essex, but Westminster Hall was aware that his comments applied nationwide. He told me that he spent the majority of his day speaking to people who were literally crying out for an appointment Tuesday 25 May 2021 and even emergency treatment, but he had absolutely nothing to offer them. He told me that if someone is [HANNAH BARDELL in the Chair] lucky and already registered with a dentist, they might be offered an appointment at some future date, often weeks Oral Health and Dentistry: England in advance, but if not, they had no chance of being taken on. He said that that applied to everyone, including Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, children and pregnant women. That was of course 25 February). during lockdown, but many of the barriers to finding [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] appointments persist. I contacted the constituent again in February and he Hannah Bardell (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members told me that, if anything, the situation was worse. He that there have been some changes to normal practice in worked almost exclusively on dental calls; they were order to support the new hybrid arrangements. Timings coming in relentlessly. He described it as a Catch-22 of debates have been amended to allow technical situation. If people are not registered at a practice, arrangements to be made for the next debate. There will NHS 111, virtually without exception, can only tell the be suspensions between debates. I remind Members callers that practice books are closed to new NHS participating, physically and virtually, that they must patients for the foreseeable future. If a patient is registered, arrive for the start of a debate in Westminster Hall and they will be told that their practice cannot offer treatment— are expected to remain for the entire debate. I must also often for weeks ahead. Let us remember that patients remind Members participating virtually that they are call 111 only as a last resort and are mostly in considerable visible at all times, both to one another and to us in the distress. They mistakenly believe that the NHS runs the Boothroyd Room. If Members attending virtually have dental service, and have nowhere else to go. Many turn any technical problems, they should email the Westminster up at A&E in desperation, which only adds to the pressure Hall Clerks at [email protected]. on NHS hospitals which do not have the capacity, Members attending physically should clean their spaces expertise or tools to fix dental problems. before using them and before leaving the room. I remind Members that Mr Speaker has stated that masks should My constituent told me it was heart-wrenching to be worn in Westminster Hall. have to listen to these calls for six hours a day. Last week, when I asked for his permission to raise his concerns in 9.26 am this debate, he told me that “there is real anger and desperation brewing.” Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab) [V]: I beg to move, I hope that the Minister is listening carefully to my That this House has considered oral health and dentistry in constituent’s experience, because this is the situation on England. the ground. I am sorry to say that he has now decided It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, that enough is enough—he will leave his role because he Ms Bardell. I was compelled to call for this debate after says he an NHS 111 call handler contacted me to describe the “can see no possibility of any improvement this year.” hardship that they experienced in trying to get patients NHS dentistry is facing an unprecedented backlog in in severe pain emergency dental appointments—too often care that will take years to clear. The BDA estimates without anysuccess.Dental practitioners and labtechnicians that a staggering 30 million NHS dental appointments have also approached me, detailing the many obstacles have been lost since the start of the pandemic, and a in their profession that are preventing them from giving report published yesterday by Healthwatch found that the care that they so desperately want to give their patients. 80% of people struggled to access timely care during The different perspectives make it blatantly clear that lockdown. dentistry in this country is in crisis and patients, including Even before the pandemic, only enough NHS dentistry children, are not getting the care that they need. to cover just over half of England’s population was There is a lot of work to be done to fix what has long commissioned. Over a quarter of people either struggle been a broken system, so let me start with thanks to all to or cannot pay,so they avoid dental treatment altogether. my colleagues who are contributing to this debate and Capacity is severely limited by infection control measures, to all those organisations, including the British Dental and access problems have now reached an unprecedented Association, the Association of Dental Groups, the Faculty scale in every community, with deep existing inequalities of Dental Surgery and Healthwatch, and dentists in my set to widen even further. constituency, who not only briefed me for the debate If the Government are serious about levelling up, but have been working day in, day out, for years to raise tackling health inequalities needs to be at the top of the the serious issues that I will go on to mention and who agenda. Healthwatch found that, among people living have the solutions, if only the Government would listen. in the north-east of England, those on low incomes and I hope that the Minister will come to the table today ethnic minority groups were hardest hit by the twin crises with a response that matches the gravity of the situation, of access and affordability. because access to dental care in England is in a parlous The Care Quality Commission’s “COVID-19 Insight: state. A constituent employed by the NHS 111 service Issue10”reportpublishedlastweekrightlyquestionswhether first got in touch with me in September 2020, in the midst enough NHS dental capacity is being commissioned, of the pandemic, to tell me, in his words, and challenges NHS policy leaders to deal with the “about the woeful state of the dental service or more precisely the demand and ensure that everyone—especially the most lack of a dental service”. vulnerable—has equal access to NHS care. 53WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 54WH

[Mohammad Yasin] further increased to 60% in April. The BDA members survey suggests that a large proportion of dentists The system has long suffered from chronic underfunding. managed to meet the target only by taking extraordinary Even if you factor in the income from patient charges, measures, such as cancelling all annual leave and working which have been increased by an inflation-busting 5% in beyond their contracted opening hours—all of this each of the last five years, the total NHS dental budget while working many hours a day in heavy-duty personal was lower in cash terms just before the pandemic than it protective equipment. was when Labour left power in 2010. Dentists in my constituency tell me the same story: The dental contract introduced in 2006 is structured the situation is not sustainable. To put this in context, with ridiculous, counterproductive targets which do not the Labour Government in Wales have not introduced make things any easier. Totally discredited and unfit for any such targets, recognising that chasing activity measures purpose, it is incompatible with providing safe and is good for neither patients nor dentists in the context of sustainable services for patients, both during and after a pandemic. I would welcome the Minister’s explanation the pandemic, and must be reformed. The peculiar Units of the extreme difference in approach between England of Dental Activity system effectively caps the number and the rest of the UK, and I urge her to follow the lead of patients a dentist can see on the NHS and actively of the Administrations in Wales and Northern Ireland, disincentivises dentists from taking on new NHS patients, who have committed capital funding towards buying especially in poorer areas where a new patient is more high-capacity ventilation equipment, which can drastically likely to have large, unmet dental care needs. cut down the fallow time required between treatments. I am grateful to the Parliamentary Engagement team, This sensible investment allows dentists to see more who ran a survey in relation to this debate. When asked patients safely and will pay for itself in increased patient what key changes would enhance their ability to do charge revenue. their job every single respondent, 78% of whom were Morale in the profession is at an all-time low, and oral health professionals, wanted to abolish what one there is a real danger that the pressures will turbocharge described as the flight of dentists from the NHS, driving them into “the aberration that is the UDA system.” private dentistry or early retirement, and making the Another said that they would have no problem problems with access for patients a permanent feature committing to provide 100% NHS dentistry if they of our dental health service. That is on top of the were paid for the work they did. However, under the significant loss of overseas dentists as a result of Brexit. current system, a root canal treatment—which can take The backlog created by the pandemic cannot be tackled up to three hours of highly technical and skilled work—is if we have no workforce left to do it. Dental practitioners renumerated the same as a little filling that may take must urgently be added to the shortage occupation list. 30 seconds to place. I hope that the Minister will outline the Government’s Why can the Government not understand that a work- road map out of the current high-intensity infection force work best when they are respected and incentivised? prevention and control measures. We need to get more patients through dentists’ doors, There can be no more kicking the can down the road but aggressive and punitive activity targets are not the when it comes to contract reform. It is now a matter of way to go about this. The targets have been the driving urgency. I would welcome the Minister’s assurances that factor behind the recruitment and retention crisis in the new system will be rolled out more quickly, and NHS dentistry. While the Minister is keen to point out certainly without any further delays, and that it will that the headcount of dentists providing NHS services decisively break with the discredited units of dental has been pretty stable, when dentists need to do only an activity and instead prioritise increasing access for patients, hour of NHS work a week to be considered an NHS and prevention. It is vital that the Government seriously dentist, that is meaningless smoke and mirrors. invest in preventive measures. In reality, many dentists have been reducing the NHS Oral health is an essential precondition and indicator work they do, and the Minister’s written answer last of overall health, and it deserves to be given priority in week revealed that the number of practices providing our health system. One in eight children in Bedford has NHS dentistry in England fell by 1,253 between 2015 obvious tooth decay by the time they are three, and the and 2020. As in other parts of the NHS, the pandemic figure rises to one in five by the time they turn five. The has brutally compounded the pre-existing problems in Government are letting children down. In the year the dental system. before the pandemic, over 23,000 children between five I appreciated and welcomed the Government’s support and nine were admitted to hospital because they had for NHS dentistry in the early stages of the pandemic. tooth decay. It is absolutely shameful that a completely The Minister quite rightly decided to pay dentists their preventable disease continues to be the No. 1 reason historical contract values when they were told to close why young children in England are admitted to hospital. their doors to patients in the first lockdown. After dental In the last five years, 540 children in Bedford have been practices reopened last summer, dentists were asked to admitted to hospital for tooth extractions, wasting over work their way through the backlog, prioritising patients £500,000 of precious NHS resources just in our town, on the basis of need, instead of focusing on delivering as well as causing pain and stress. units of dental activity. Procedures under a general anaesthetic are another Just before Christmas,however,the Government changed area of dentistry where the pandemic has taken a heavy course. Despite standard operating procedure continuing toll. They are often necessary in children with extensive to severely limit the number of patients that can be seen decay and adults with special needs, and waiting times safely, the Government expected dentists in England to were very long even before the pandemic, with patients deliver 45% of their historical activity between January often waiting in excess of a year. The suspension of and March or face financial penalties. This target was most non-urgent surgeries has left tens of thousands of 55WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 56WH patients in pain for months,with some taking huge amounts My hon. Friend the Minister can see my request coming of painkillers or resorting to do-it-yourself interventions like a big balloon because I have already discussed it or multiple rounds of avoidable antibiotics while they with her. The time has come for a road map to release wait for this completely preventable surgery. dentists from PPE and all the restrictions. We need a I welcome the plans to legislate to recentralise water return to the pre-covid treatment of patients and we fluoridation as a preventive measure, but would welcome need SAGE to look at it and get on with it. That will be assurances that changes to the legal framework will be the biggest single action in enabling dentists to get this accompanied by proper funding, otherwise it will be backlog into line. meaningless. Water fluoridation is highly effective, but My second wish is a push at an open door with the it will take years before we see its effects, so proper Minister. Dental care is preventable, but while there has investment in preventive oral health programmes, such been progress, we are badly behind, especially in caries as supervised toothbrushing, is needed. Supervised brushing prevention for children. Pre-pandemic, these children is estimated to save over £3 for each £1 invested over five occupied 177 clinical general anaesthetic extraction cases years. I hope we will see a consultation and a roll-out of in hospital—a complete waste of our services. The latest this sensible and highly effective intervention very soon. figure that I have seen is that 23,529 children between Finally, I turn to the forthcoming health and social the ages of five and nine were admitted to hospital care Bill. Beyond the measures on fluoridation, the because they had tooth decay. White Paper barely mentions dentistry at all. I hope to I first started practising dentistry in a deprived area hear a commitment today that dental services will be in east London. The state of dentition there shocked properly represented in the governance structures of the me, especially the state of children’s dentition. It was integrated care systems, and that the changes to not the deprivation that caused the poor dentition; it commissioning structures—and particularly any possible was the diet and the almost complete lack of oral pooling of primary care budgets—do not result in further hygiene. Put simply, kids and parents did not toothbrush. cuts to dental budgets. Some parents did not even know that toothbrushes 9.41 am existed. And if you went into the supermarket, the shelves were packed with biscuits and cakes, whereas there was Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con) [V]: I am little meat or vegetables; go to less deprived areas and it delighted to serve under your guidance, Ms Bardell. I is the other way round. So, it is not the deprivation; it is congratulate the hon. Member for Bedford (Mohammad the shoppers—the parents. Yasin) on obtaining this debate. His speech was a barrage of negativity, and it is not all negativity in this The Minister will know where I am going with this. field. I am a practising dentist—part-time at the moment; She and the chief dental officer are already embarking very little. I am a member of the British Academy for on teaching children in teams throughout the country Cosmetic Dentistry, the British Fluoridation Society to brush their teeth. Coincidental with this, most children and the British Endodontic Society. That is wet-finger are accompanied by their parents, some of whom are dentistry, though in a glove. stunned to see this little thing called a toothbrush. But For decades, the dental profession, especially NHS the message is getting through; as the hon. Member for dentists, has felt that dentistry as a health service has, as Bedford said, we are starting to get some progress, and far as the Department is concerned, been seen as a it is happening quite quickly. Cinderella service, or an expensive minefield, or both. As I have said, tooth decay is essentially highly This has gone on for decades under Governments of preventable. Water fluoridation is the single most effective various and even mixed complexions. However, I believe public measure that could be taken to prevent tooth this has markedly improved with my hon. Friend the decay. At the moment, implementation of fluoridation Minister and the current chief dental officer. There has is in the power of local authorities. Little progress has been a visible change of attitude. Both ladies recognise been made. We lag behind every other western nation. the importance of improving the oral health of the Most of our western nation comparators have a fluoridation nation and of the status of dentistry as a health service. rate of domestic water supplies of between 60% and 80%, To use the chief dental officer’s banner statement, at last but we have a rate of only 10%. It is the system; the “Putting the mouth back in the body”. costs are to the local authorities and the cost-benefits Covid has had a dramatic effect on the ability to are to the national health service. provide dental services, whether NHS or private. Waiting The process of consultation over fluoridation is lengthy lists for all dental patients have dramatically exacerbated, and tedious, and it is providing a platform for protesters and we have just heard a tirade on this. Covid meant of the same type as the anti-vaccination people. Some that for a period all dental surgeries were closed. Only of the things that they say are quite extraordinary. I had emergency services and specialised clinics were open. to listen to a man explaining to me that he had done When the surgeries were permitted to start resuming some research. He said that he had been to a town with covid protection, actions such as furloughed time, PPE young people and no fluoride, and to a town with older and so on added to the delays,complications and diminished people with fluoride, and the venereal disease rate in the throughput. Clinical teaching of final year students was town with young people was higher than that in the diminished, such that there is doubt that some of them town with older people. Therefore, according to him, if are ready to graduate. we put fluoride into the water supply, people got venereal All the dental team should have been double vaccinated disease. And to my astonishment, there were other by now, whether private, mixed practices or NHS. The people there who actually believed that nonsense. R factor is going down. An increasing proportion of To make a more practical point, there are considerable patients have been vaccinated. Dentists are following a difficulties for both local authorities and water companies, careful triage system. Deaths are down, hospitalisations in that their boundaries are rarely, if ever, coterminous. are down and the 21 June release is still on, we hope. So, it makes eminent sense for the implementation 57WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 58WH

[Sir Paul Beresford] I do not think that patient would agree that the situation was entirely on his own head, given that he could not process for the new schemes of fluoridation to be put in receive timely treatment from the NHS. the hands of central Government and driven by central Scandalously, my constituents’ experience, far from Government, which is the Minister’s proposal. being exceptional, is reflected up and down the country. In doing so, however, I hope that the Government Yesterday,Healthwatch England said that people are faced will curtail the procedures on consultation. In every with a wait of up to three years for dental appointments. period of consultation, in every place of consultation, Four in five people are struggling to access timely care. the same thing is said by the same people, and I believe Even when they get an appointment, a staggering 61% find that the same nutters come out. If we continue with that treatment too expensive. Who is bearing the burden of process, we will have a repetition of the scaremongering this chronic Government failure to provide healthcare stories from people who are basically cranks. for all? Surprise, surprise: it is, as ever,those on low incomes The safety, efficiency, cost-effectiveness and benefit and from ethnic minority groups who are affected the of fluoride in water supplies, whether it is achieved naturally most by the lack of appointments and the soaring costs —as is the case in many parts of the world—or artificially, for treatment. is proven to be workable and to achieve dramatic reductions Healthwatch England revealed that almost twice as in tooth decay. With this proposed step and the many people from lower socioeconomic groups struggle Government’s determination, rather than our lagging or cannot afford to pay NHS dental charges as those behind the rest of the world we could actually lead, and from higher socioeconomic groups. The cause of this I hope that we move to do so. crisis is no secret. NHS dental services, as is the case with our public health service at large, are chronically Hannah Bardell (in the Chair): Before I call the next underfunded by the Government. speaker, I ask Members to keep their remarks to within No doubt the Minister will reel off a long list of eight minutes, to allow equal time, and I hope to call the figures about how much the Government are spending Opposition spokespersons by 10.35 am. on dentistry, but the reality speaks for itself. According to the British Dental Association, NHS general dental 9.49 am practice is already the only part of NHS England operating on a lower budget in cash terms than in 2010. Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab) [V]: Thank you That means that in real terms, net Government spending very much, Ms Bardell, for your chairmanship today. on general dental practice in England has been cut by I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for more than a third in the last decade. Those problems are Bedford (Mohammad Yasin) on securing this timely set to get worse. According to the British Dental debate. Like others who have spoken, I have heard Association, around a quarter of dentists plan to stop countless stories from my constituents in Norwich South providing NHS services and move to fully private provision. that show the very human cost of chronic and long-term More than a third plan a career change or early retirement underfunding of NHS England services.What I have heard in the next 12 months. has led me to conclude that the state of NHS England’s I will finish by stating the obvious. Dental care is dental services can only be described as a scandal. Simply healthcare. If my constituents cannot access the healthcare put, this is a service that is broken. they need when they need it, I am afraid that we have a Many constituents now face insurmountable barriers national health service in name only. We must not forget to accessing basic healthcare. They face extreme delays that it is the principles of care and universalism that in getting an appointment, if they can secure one at all. make so many people rightfully proud and defensive of They are then faced with prohibitive treatment costs, the NHS. The Government must not continue to treat even for NHS services, which some simply cannot afford. dentistry and oral health as an afterthought, or as a Constituents tell me it is impossible to get an appointment, service that can be quietly privatised. It is part and let alone with an NHS dentist, and that they have been parcel of preventive healthcare, a building block in a turned away despite being in pain. society that values wellbeing. One constituent had dental treatment delayed by a Oral and dental care must be fully provided for by the year; others had treatment cancelled, only for their oral NHS. In the immediate future, support must be given to health to deteriorate. Some constituents tell me that practices to enable them to open safely and see more when they do manage to get an appointment, sometimes patients. Longer term, we need dentistry and oral health after weeks or months of waiting, they are told that the services to be provided equitably. The Government have treatment they need can be done only at a private clinic, an opportunity in the upcoming health and social care at a cost of thousands of pounds, which they simply do Bill to do just that. I hope they take that opportunity, not have. for the sake of my constituents and many others around England. Delays, cancelled appointments and treatments so expensive that they are unattainable lead to agony, disfigurement and a range of other healthcare problems. 9.54 am Someone with a business in my constituency was forced Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con) [V]: It is a pleasure to to pull out 18 of his teeth when receding gums had left serve under your chairmanship, Ms Bardell, and I thank him in agony and the broken dental care system left him the hon. Member for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin) for no other options. Perhaps the hon. Member for Mole organising the debate. The Minister knows that I have Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) would like to tell that spoken on these dentistry issues on several occasions, businessman that his agony is his own fault and due to and I have written to her as well. As discussed with the his diet. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman change his Minister, I will be writing to the Treasury on these dental bedside manner when talking to patients, because issues this week, because the Minister is a champion of 59WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 60WH public health, dentistry, pharmacy and other issues, as The initiation of a dental training scheme on the Island she rightly points out, but there is a cash problem here would be incredibly helpful and would deal with one as well. I am aware that she is doing her best in difficult specific hotspot. If someone trains here on the Island, circumstances, and covid presents a unique set of there is nothing to stop them then going back to the circumstances. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member mainland, so we would not only be training dentists for for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) that we are seeing the Isle of Wight—it would be good if we were—but if an improvement under the Minister—or we should see we have an overflow of dentists there is no reason why an improvement once covid gets lifted. they cannot go back to the mainland after their training. Islanders are facing issues, however, in relation to Can we have a simplification of the process for qualifying dentistry. It is, frankly, just very difficult—nig,h-on as a training practice, and then a boost to the funding impossible in some parts of the Isle of Wight—for for interns’ salaries? We are not talking about significant families to find an NHS dentist. I thank the Minister amounts of money here, but these measures will pay for the extra money to soak up some of the outstanding dividends in the long run. According to people who are appointments, but that money was reasonably limited clearly much more expert on these matters than I am, it and it went very quickly. Some Islanders who are getting is important to make changes to the contracts to incentivise a new dentist are now having to go to the mainland for remaining in the NHS. It is also important to separate treatment. That is incredibly inconvenient, especially laboratory fees from dental fees,which will help laboratories given that, with the most expensive ferries in the world, to survive as well. some kids on the Island have never seen a dentist in Finally, on fluoridation, which my hon. Friend the their life. Member for Mole Valley raised, I think this is a no-brainer. The Healthwatch England report found that 7 in 10 It is very difficult to make a case against it. The Minister people find it difficult to access an NHS dentist. The was kind enough to grab coffee with me, last week or same body published data in 2019 showing that 85% of the week before, to talk about public health schemes. If dental practices across the country were closed to new he is looking for a test case, fluoridation is a scheme patients. That is absolutely reflected in my constituency. that could be very easily introduced to a large area of As well as the inconvenience and the damage to the the UK that is highly measurable because it is separated nation’s dental health, it will cause us problems in the by sea from the mainland—clearly I am talking about longer term, as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member my constituency. We are self-contained and have only for Mole Valley. That is because we know that there will one local authority and one water authority to deal be a significant rise, potentially, in cancer cases: one of with, so if there was a desire to introduce another the side effects of a lack of dental appointments is that fluoridation pilot scheme or pilot a roll-out, that could we will not be able to spot cancers like mouth cancer, be done very successfully on the Island. Given that we and ill health, when they show themselves in people’s are seeing dental problems and have a shortage of mouths. We know, also, that gum disease is associated dentists on the Island, may I respectfully suggest, if with heart disease, so there is a knock-on effect on other there is to be a move to fluoridation, as my hon. Friend bits of the health service. the Member for Mole Valley rightly suggested, that it As I have discussed with the Minister, my worry is please start where it is arguably most needed—on the that—as with pharmacies—because we have a cash-flow Isle of Wight? problem in these areas, that problem will exhibit itself as greater, and frankly more expensive, problems further 10 am down the line. Dental practices were clearly facing Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab): It is a pleasure issues before covid. The challenge is, in part, a workforce to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Bardell. I one. The British Dental Association found that 75% of congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford dental practices are struggling to fill vacancies. Over (Mohammad Yasin) on securing this important debate. half of newly-qualified NHS dentists under 35 are As the Minister knows all too well, I have spoken on thinking of leaving the NHS in the next five years, with this issue many times in this place, but the problems many going into private practice. It is good that they are facing NHS dentistry have never been more serious or staying in dentistry but bad that they are leaving the the need for action more pressing. The flurry of reports NHS, because the NHS is where we now need the acute and media coverage in the past couple of days confirms dentistry support. the urgency of the crisis before us. Last week’s Insight Dental schools are not producing enough dentists. report from the Care Quality Commission questioned The nearest dental school to us is in Portsmouth. These whether enough NHS dental capacity is commissioned, problems seem to be exacerbated in coastal, rural, isolated and challenged commissioners to ensure that everyone, areas. We are isolated by being cut off from the mainland especially those who are vulnerable, have access to NHS by the Solent, and we are also coastal and pretty rural. dental care. We are experiencing these factors on the Island more, Yesterday’s report by Healthwatch England stressed arguably, than many other parts of Britain. We also have that the dental crisis shows no signs of slowing and an issue on the Island with dentists retiring or leaving rightly called for a radical rethink of NHS dentistry early, and that is specifically the case among several of and a rapid, radical reform of the way that dentistry is them. That will put our system under even greater threat, commissioned and provided. Today’s analysis by the not only for NHS dentists but also specialists working British Dental Association warns that the extreme pressures in dental labs on the Island and indeed elsewhere. I have of trying to hit unrealistic activity targets and working talked about that on numerous occasions. long hours in heavy-duty PPE have led to an unprecedented There is no easy fix to these problems, but there are crisis in morale among the dental workforce, with almost some potentially reasonably quick wins. I want to mention half of NHS dentists saying it is likely that they will a few now, to see if I can interest the Minister in them. reduce their NHS commitment or leave the profession 61WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 62WH

[Judith Cummins] Dentists report being forced to prioritise routine appointments over dealing with a huge backlog of altogether in the next 12 months. Unless we urgently act urgent care, which is much more time consuming and to avoid the looming exodus of dentists in the NHS, the complex but counts roughly towards the same target. consequences for patients will be dire. The current 60% target in England is four times higher Bradford South has faced serious challenges with than the 15% dentists in Northern Ireland have been access to NHS dentistry for a long time. The triple asked to deliver, and three times as high as the 20% that whammy of chronic underfunding, the failed dental dentists in Scotland will be asked to deliver later this contract and the pressures of the pandemic means that year. The Labour Government in Wales rightly recognised the kind of problems that we have long seen in my that targets were not the best way to support dentists in constituency, and West Yorkshire more widely, have seeing more patients and did not introduce them. now reached almost every community in England. However, Ultimately, the extreme nature of the target in England I look forward to meeting the Minister and her team drives dentists out of the NHS. Access to dental services again to examine the data and the outcomes of the will be reduced permanently and it will be the patients extended pilot project to increase access to dentists in who, in the long term, pay the price for what, in the Bradford. short term, might look like a policy that benefits them. The BDA estimates that 30 million NHS dental It would be much more effective and, crucially, more appointments have been lost since the start of the pandemic. sustainable to follow the actions of the Welsh and That is an unprecedented backlog that would take years Northern Irish Administrations and help dentists reduce to clear, even under the very best of circumstances, but the gaps they need to keep between patients by helping considering the growing crisis in access throughout the them to upgrade their ventilation equipment. Many country, the Minister must do all she can to support have already done so, but nearly 70% of practices report NHS dental teams as they work to meet the extraordinary that they now face financial barriers to further investment challenge. Unless we make NHS dentistry a place where in this area. Can the Minister outline why England people want to work, the crisis we are seeing now will remains the only part of the UK not to even investigate become a permanent state of affairs. the merit of providing capital investment to help increase access safely? First and foremost, on dental contract reform, I will not outline yet again all the reasons why the current Can the Minister also set out her plans to change the contract needs to be abandoned. I know that I would be current high-intensity infection prevention and control preaching to the converted, as the Minister and colleagues measures? Fallow time and having to work long hours on both sides of the House agree with me on that. I in heavy duty PPE is exhausting and demoralising for welcome the Minister’s recent assurances that a reformed dental staff, as well as reducing access for patients. Most system might be rolled out next year. I stress that it is colleagues have focused on high-street dentistry, but crucial that new contractual arrangements are rolled we should not forget that we are also facing a major out no later than April 2022, as we simply do not have backlog in secondary dental care services. In Bradford, the luxury of more time. The issue is now so urgent that almost 1,000 children under the age of 10 had to be there can be no more kicking the can down the road. admitted to hospital to have decayed teeth removed under general anaesthetic in 2019-20. The pandemic It is also essential that the new system does not has certainly not reduced the need for such operations simply tinker around the edges of the current discredited but most of those procedures have been on hold since it contract. We need to see a decisive break from units of started. That has led potentially to tens of thousands of dental activity, which are completely incompatible with children and adults with special needs waiting in pain, providing safe,sustainable services for patients as we emerge in many cases much longer than a year. Can the Minister from the pandemic. The new contract must have prevention tell us how many are currently on the waiting list for at its heart and ensure that dentistry is available to all. hospital dental procedures and how she plans to tackle Secondly, we must support dentists to see as many unacceptably long waits for those operations? patients as safely as they can, but in a way that is Finally, I urge the Minister not to treat dentistry as sustainable. I am sure the Minister will be telling us later an afterthought in reforms of the healthcare system. how activity targets imposed by the Government in Changes to primary care commissioning in the upcoming January and increased further in April have helped to Health and Social Care Bill must not lead to a postcode improve access to NHS dentistry. I am sure that, faced lottery or further cuts to extremely overstretched dental with severe financial penalties, which could destabilise budgets and dental services. They must be represented or even bankrupt their practice, NHS dentists have seen in the governance structures of the integrated care more patients since the targets were introduced. However, system. Beyond the measures on fluoridation, the White we must question at what cost—to both patients and to Paper barely mentioned dentistry at all, which, in itself, the workforce—these targets were met. is quite telling. To turn the page on the access crisis we The BDA members’ survey indicates that more than are currently seeing, we must finally stop treating dental 90% of dentists had to take extra measures to meet their services as a Cinderella service of the NHS and give it targets, with large proportions forced to reduce the amount the priority it deserves. of private work they do, which, in the long term, subsidises the NHS side of their businesses. They had to 10.9 am cancel annual leave and work extended hours in heavy Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab) [V]: It is a pleasure duty PPE, and I am sure that the Minister agrees that to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Bardell. My gratitude that is not sustainable in the long run and explains the goes to my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford rock-bottom morale of the workforce. More importantly, (Mohammad Yasin), as this debate is timely and important patients pay the price for this extreme pressure to clock for all our communities. He is a long-standing champion units of dental activity. of better public services for all. 63WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 64WH

I begin by thanking all dentists and dental staff in of Health and Social Care of taking an unreasonably our country. They do a difficult job and the pandemic long time to respond to letters, queries and written has made it even harder. I know from experience that parliamentary questions from MPs. That is simply not the British Dental Association plays an important role in acceptable and makes our role of representing our supporting the dental community and, of course, patients, constituents all the harder. and I am grateful to it. Earlier this week, there were reports The Government must reform the system so that in the media regarding the state of our dental industry. everyone has access to an NHS dentist, within a reasonable As ever, it is the most disadvantaged in our communities distance and timescale. We are facing a dental crisis. We who have borne the brunt of the crisis in the sector. must do more to ensure that the most vulnerable in our Healthwatch England reported that it had seen a significant communities have access to treatment and no longer rise in calls and complaints at the start of this year. The face the prospect of being priced out of treatment. pandemic has been an unprecedented challenge, but it cannot be acceptable that in one of the richest countries 10.13 am in the world some people have been informed that they Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: have to wait up to three years to see a dentist. Thank you, Ms Bardell, for the opportunity to speak in Shockingly,22% of children under five in Stockport have today’s debate with you in the Chair. I thank my hon. experience of tooth decay, which compares unfavourably Friend the Member for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin) with the best area in England, where only 7% of children for putting the debate into context. Here I am again have decay.In addition, last year 300 children in Stockport debating dental services with the Minister and, yet again, had teeth extracted under a general anaesthetic in a championing the needs of my constituents and the hospital due to tooth decay. In the latest GP patient dentists who have worked relentlessly throughout this survey, 14% of adults surveyed in the Stockport clinical pandemic in extremely difficult circumstances. commissioning group area said that they had not tried to get an appointment with an NHS dentist in the past York had a dental crisis before the pandemic. two years because they assumed that none would be Constituents now tell me that they have to wait at least available. Only 2% said that they were currently on a three years to receive NHS treatment and that those waiting list for an appointment. The British Dental trying to register struggle or simply search for treatment Association has welcomed the Government’scommitment outside the area. We have serious problems in York, as to dental contract reform, but these reforms must be the Minister knows. NHS treatment needs to be available meaningful. They must expand access to NHS dentists for all and, tragically, it is not. Many are now turning to across England because private treatment is not accessible accident and emergency services to get pain relief or a to everyone. course of antibiotics. Private care is not an option, nor should it ever be. It is an old saying that prevention is better than cure, so these reforms must also prioritise prevention. In the Successive Ministers have failed to address this crisis. past two years, 135 children were admitted to hospitals This month, the Minister was unable to tell me, as my in England for extraction of decayed teeth every single hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Navendu Mishra) day. Shockingly, this continues to be the No.1 reason for has said, how many NHS dentists there are in my city. children under five being admitted to hospitals in the The fact that she does not have that basic data gives me UK. The data tells us that supervised tooth brushing little hope that the Government have really got a grip improves oral health, but also saves money in the long on the scale of this crisis and the needs that must be term. We need a dedicated funding package in England addressed. for these programmes. It is perplexing that oral health is seen to be different As is often the case, underfunding is the basis of from other areas of healthcare, and that we have to pay many long-term problems. The data on the number of for things that are done to our mouths but not to the practices providing NHS dentistry makes for depressing rest of our bodies. It did not start that way. When Nye reading. The British Dental Association has reported Bevan established the NHS, dentistry was free at the point that the number of practices providing NHS dentistry of need and everyone was entitled to have their check-ups fell by more than 1,200 in the past five years. Adding the and treatment on the NHS. It was transformative. In pandemic to this equation means that the nation is 1951, the first assault on our NHS occurred when charges facing an exodus of dentists from the NHS. As I said, were introduced. That caused Bevan to resign in disgust, the upcoming reforms must be meaningful and expand and sadly since then the divorcing of oral health from access to NHS dentists across the country. the rest of medical care has failed to serve us well. In March, I tabled three separate written parliamentary Evidence from the BDA—I thank it for the work it questions regarding people on waiting lists to register does—shows that the pattern of health inequalities in with an NHS dentist in Stockport, in the north-west other areas of healthcare is reflected in dentistry and region and in England. Unfortunately, the Minister’s oral healthcare, so it is time for integration, not segregation. answers to all my questions were the same. It is simply Although I understand the point that the hon. Member unacceptable that the Department of Health and Social for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) made, he did not Care does not hold this data centrally. How can we suggest a solution. Of course, we need to ensure that expect the Government to tackle the serious and long-term good-quality, healthy food is available for all, particularly issues relating to NHS dentistry if they do not even those living in deprivation, but it is wrong to blame hold the data centrally? That suggests that the Government those individuals for their lack of choice due to their are either not taking this crisis seriously or are woefully financial circumstances. underprepared to tackle it. This patchwork of failed contracts has courted Frustratingly, as several Members on both sides of privatisation and created a dependency on labour from the House have highlighted in the main Chamber, we other countries which, simultaneously, this Government have seen a pattern of behaviour from the Department are spurning. In the past year, I have been on a journey 65WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 66WH

[Rachael Maskell] Delivery is something that this pandemic has taught us all about. We need a collaborative approach—a with many of York’s dentists to learn why, unless we see place-based system approach—to ensure that we address radical change to the delivery of dental services, the the scale of the issues. The vaccine programme has system will collapse.Dentists will burn out or leave—indeed, settled the debate about emergency provision once and they are doing so as we speak—and the nation’s oral for all, and we are in that space now with dental care. hygiene will deteriorate further. Even during the pandemic, Every child and young person should be able to access dentists have been told that they will be penalised if dental inspections in school each year, and this should they fail to deliver unrealistic contractual targets while be routine from when children start school. Early prevention practising in a covid-risk environment. would not only save the NHS a lot of money; it would The NHS dental contract fails to pay. The Minister also save children a lot of trauma. sets unrealistic targets—units of dental activity—without Similar plans could be put in place for care homes. consideration of the scale of the barriers that dentistry For adults, an accessible check-up service would clear is facing, and without providing mitigation. Ministers the backlog and enable cases to be triaged, population-wide, in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland seem to have into treatment. For some people, light treatment could understood that, but this Minister has not. In a post-covid be provided simultaneously, with more complex cases world, and against a backlog of more than 20 million referred to a booking system. appointments—think about the scale of that; we are As we have seen with this pandemic, there are rightly exercised by the 5 million outstanding secondary-care collaborative ways to address health crises. A place-based appointments that we are having to grapple with at the approach, whereby barriers can be removed, can be moment—it is baffling that the Government have failed enabled to provide the solutions. Rather than struggling to grip the scale of this deepening crisis and have not to design ever-more challenging contracts and systems instituted an emergency service. to serve a fair model, the Minister could create a national The tightening of the thumbscrews on dentists through dental service and use this framework to work with their contracts shows no mercy, despite their call for local delivery partners. In a matter of months, she could ventilation equipment funding, high-grade PPE and an start turning this vital service around for all. understanding that requiring treatment rooms to lay fallow before a deep clean can commence due to the aerosol- Hannah Bardell (in the Chair): Before I call the next generating procedures eats into dentists’ ability to deliver speaker, may I gently and politely remind Members to their contract obligations. The arbitrary, unevidenced turn off their phones or put them on silent during the targets require dentists to work round the clock, cancel debate? leave and often their whole lives. They force dentists to focus on high-volume, low-risk work such as check-ups, 10.22 am while patients requiring treatment, not least complex Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): It is a pleasure to treatment, are made to wait. It is unethical and wrong. serve under your chairship, Ms Bardell, and I congratulate To top it all, the Government’s net spend on dental my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mohammad services, as we have heard, has been cut by more than a Yasin) on securing this hugely important and timely third in the past decade. Evidence shows that every debate. It is certainly very important for my constituents pound invested can save over three, as well as teeth. This in Putney, and Southfields. is the moment to start again, and I am glad the Minister is in listening mode. We have the diagnosis. We know I sponsored a Back-Bench debate on this topic back the problems and the scale of the challenge. It is not in January, and here we are again. In that debate, there time to tweak locum contracts or drive our dental staff was real agreement from Members from different parties harder. It is time to get a real, pragmatic solution in that there was an impending crisis facing UK dentistry, place. There is an opportunity to legislate for a national and that the actions that needed to be taken to avoid it dental service in the forthcoming health and care Bill to were clear,yet the crisis remains.Patients in my constituency solve this problem. and across the country still have huge concerns about accessing dentistry and getting the care that they need. Oral health should be seen as a public health matter. It should attract the planning and preventive approach Not enough action is being taken, so the Government that anyother public health emergency would. Fluoridation, should not have been surprised to wake up and find this as we have heard, is a no-brainer and brings universal morning’s front pages covered in reports of a three-year benefits. I urge the Minister to introduce that without waiting list for some patients to see an NHS dentist. delay and end the postcode lottery. A principle needs to According to a new survey of dentists in England, nearly be made that everyone should be able to receive free half indicate that they are now likely to seek a change of oral health at the point of need—no barriers, and no career or early retirement in the next 12 months should excuses. Good oral health has to be accessible for all— the covid restrictions stay in place. The same proportion nationally determined on the what, and locally determined say they are likely to reduce their NHS commitment. on the how. We need to increase significantly the number That is very important, because we particularly need to of training places for dentists in the UK and ensure that save NHS dentistry. the benefit they gain from training is tied in with their In the five years before the start of the pandemic, the commitment to serve in a national dental service under number of practices providing NHS dentistry fell by NHS terms. Training bonds are not unique, and they 1,253. Some 85% of dental practices are now closed to ensure reciprocity. Therefore, they will bring real benefit new NHS patients, and 60% are closed to child patients. to the service. What plans has the Minister executed in I can see this in my constituency in London and across order to train more dental staff and ensure that we have the country. It is no exaggeration to say that the future sufficient numbers in our dental schools? What discussions of NHS dentistry hangs in the balance right now, and it are taking place? We would like to know. is people who are on lower incomes who are the most 67WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 68WH affected. The Government have been warned time and more dentists coming from overseas to this country. again by MPs, the British Dental Association, mydentist, A simple change in the way that dental qualifications patients and dental practitioners, yet we feel that their are recognised would make a difference. warnings are falling on deaf ears. I hope we hear The overseas registration process has to be carried differently from the Minister. out in the UK. It costs £4,000 and takes 12 months. If As colleagues know, and as has been said, 20 million the overseas registration exam process could be equivalent appointments were lost between March and November, for dentists and medics, including part 1 to be carried which has created a huge backlog that will take years to out overseas and increasing spaces on that exam, it would clear unless it is addressed now. In my own borough of make a huge difference.Such small changes could transform , nearly 6,000 fewer courses of treatment dental care in this country. took place in the final quarter of 2020. One child is Prior to 2001, the General Dental Council pre-approved hospitalised for a tooth extraction every 10 minutes. I certain dental qualifications outside of the European am a mother who took my child to hospital for a tooth economic area. That was due to our membership of the extraction. I have seen many other children there and I European Union, but it changed because of Brexit. know how devastating it is at the time. It can have Now—I do not say this very often—we could take long-term implications for the child’s health as well, but advantage of Brexit and return to the pre-2001 system that can be prevented, so I will go through some of the of prioritisingCommonwealthdentalschoolsbyrecognising preventive measures. select qualifications. I welcome the Government’s renewed commitment to We must support all practices to enable them to dental contract reform, which is essential. The new increase the number of patients. As the hon. Member contract must break with units of dental activity. It for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) and others have must prioritise prevention and ensure that NHS dentistry said, they must have capital expenditure for new ventilation is available to all who need it. After a decade spent equipment and also a road map out of the use of developing new systems, it is crucial that the Government heavy-duty PPE, which is bringing down morale and deliver on their commitment to roll out new contractual will not be needed in future. Also, the fallow times need arrangements by April 2022. It is also important to to be brought down. We need to prioritise dentistry in make it clear that the roots of the crisis we face go back the upcoming reforms of the healthcare system, particularly to well before the pandemic. This is not just about covid in the health and social care Bill, and we need an urgent prevention measures. It has been a long time coming review of the whole system, especially new targets—not and the pandemic has only lit the touchpaper. for dental activity but for increased retention of NHS There is a huge disparity in funding across the UK. dentists. The Labour Government in Wales spend approximately It is time to stop the slide into the privatisation of £47 per year on primary care dentistry per head of dentistry. It is time to stop treating dental health as a population compared with only £34 in England. As capacity kind of luxury instead of there being free oral health at across the service continues to be severely limited by the point of need. We are sleepwalking into the biggest infection control measures, access problems have now oral health crisis since the creation of the NHS. It is reached an unprecedented scale in every community, time the Government took responsibility and rescued with the existing deep inequalities of both access and UK dentistry before it is too late. outcomes set to widen even further. When the Minister responds, I would like to hear reassurances about action 10.30 am on prevention, about current practices and ventilation, Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op): It is a and about dentist retention, especially recruitment, which pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Bardell. I will focus on. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford First, prevention. There has been a lack of face-to-face (Mohammad Yasin) for securing this important debate. health visiting, especially for early years. In early years Like much of our health service and, indeed, British life settings, supervised brushing and encouraging parents during the pandemic, dentistry has had to stretch and and teaching them about supervised brushing has been adapt and tackle its own unique challenges. It is welcome limited. There needs to be a real upgrade and fast tracking and important for us to have the opportunity to discuss of check-ups in the early years settings so that we do this today; the steps required to recover and rebuild; not have a huge backlog of issues in later years. There and the wider oral health issues that we have not been needs to be dedicated funding for new water fluoridisation able to deal with during the pandemic. schemes, as many other Members have said—I am fully My hon. Friend led us in a strong manner and clearly in favour of those—and further measures to reduce laid out for those watching the gravity of the situation sugar consumption. and the amount of pain that has been building up. He On recruitment, my dentist is the main provider of made important points about contract reform that I NHS dental care, and they consider this a priority issue will return to. I have felt among friends and perhaps, for now. There are not enough places to train UK even the usual suspects, as a number of us have talked dentists in the UK, and the intake is dropping, not about dentistry throughout the pandemic and before: increasing as we need it to. Even if the numbers were to my hon. Friends the Members for Norwich South (Clive increase, it would take six years to have an effect because Lewis),forBradfordSouth(JudithCummins),forStockport it takes six years to train a dentist, so there needs to be (Navendu Mishra), for York Central (Rachael Maskell) secondary legislation to change the overseas registration and for Putney (Fleur Anderson). Their points were process. That would not cost anything, which I am sure very pertinent, particularly the points made by my hon. the Minister would welcome. It has a huge amount of Friend the Member for Norwich South about finances; support from dental associations and practices, and it by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South could be relatively simple and quick to see an effect with about prevention; and by my hon. Friend the Member 69WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 70WH

[Alex Norris] I understand that the mean UDA performance between January and March was 59%. The British Dental for Stockport about disadvantage and his frustrations Association reports that the majority of practices have on data, to which I will also return. My hon. Friend the hit these targets by adopting approaches—such as working Member for York Central spoke about the crisis prior beyond contracted hours, cancelling annual leave and to the pandemic and my hon. Friend the Member for prioritising routine care over complex cases—that are at Putney has just spoken about recruitment. They were best unsustainable, and at worst dangerous. all very well-made points and I will be returning to Furthermore, they have surveyed their members to them in my contribution. find out what impact the last quarter has had on them: On the Government Benches, we are very lucky to 29% say they intend to stop doing NHS work entirely have the professional insights of the hon. Member for and nearly half intend to reduce NHS work. A similar Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford). His points about proportion say that they are likely to change career or fluoridation were excellent—I share much of them and retire should the current restrictions stay in place. That will be returning to them. I could not agree with his is the staggering personal impact of an imposed settlement points about decoupling deprivation and personal choice. that has led to unsatisfactory working practices and Of course, personal judgments are always critical, but if extraordinary stresses. we decouple deprivation, it would not explain why we Discussing the judgments that have been made in the see poor oral health generation after generation, year past is important, but also as we go forward because after year on the same streets and on the same estates, now that target goes from 45% to 60%, which will last which are always the poorest ones. The hon. Member us through to September. I hope that the Minister can for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) was dogged in his persistence tell us what extra support the Government will provide around equity of access. His points were unique to the to practices to enable them to increase the number of Isle of Wight but I share a lot of commonalities in my patients they can see to hit their increased target, to do community, and from what I have heard, so do other it safely and to do it in a way that does not incentivise parts of the country. perverse working practices that we would not want to see. Where do we stand today? Two in three adults in the UK have visible plaque. Almost one in three have tooth We know how those in the profession feel about this decay.Three in four have had a tooth extracted—including from the same BDA survey. Nearly two thirds of NHS me. Over 3 million people suffer from regular oral pain dentists do not think they will hit that target, and and there are over 8,300 new cases of mouth cancer 88% of dentists report that the current conditions have every year. That is the scorecard for Britain’s oral health had a high impact on their morale. We need to hear as we meet today. That is why it is so important that we from the Minister what extra support they would get, act in this area. We are talking today about oral health particularly around the operating procedure, or perhaps, and dentistry, but you cannot decouple those two things. as the hon. Member for Mole Valley says, a roadmap Support for dentistry is support for our oral health, and from restrictions or access to technology to allow them good oral health in this country will mean that we are in to do more. Throughout this debate, we have heard that a better and stronger position around dentistry. there has been far too much stick and never any carrot. I think it is time to recognise the contribution by working I will begin with dentistry. In January, my hon. Friend with the profession rather than against them. the Member for Putney secured a debate in the main As my hon. Friend the Member for York Central Chamber about the future of dentistry. It was well-timed said, this pandemic has exposed a service built on sand. and came just as the Government’s newly imposed The NHS general dental practice is the only part of the activity targets on the profession were under way and NHS in England operating on a lower budget in cash just as we had re-entered another lockdown. I will terms than in 2010, as my hon. Friend the Member for reiterate what I said that day. Of course, activity is Norwich South also said. In real terms, net Government needed to ramp up to start to tackle the growing backlog spend on general dental practices in England has been of need in this country, but the failure of the Government cut by over a third over the past decade, with the to ensure that NHS England and those who negotiate number of NHS dental practices in England falling by for the dentists came to a workable, mutually agreeable more than 1,200 in the five years prior to the pandemic— deal was a significant failure of leadership. It led to then we wonder why we have an access issue. significant anxiety and weakened dental services in the Similarly, relentless cuts to the public health budget long run. year on year for a decade have meant that supervised When the debate was announced, I submitted a number toothbrushing schemes, like the excellent Teeth Team in of written questions to help us to establish the facts my community, are a rarity when they should be the regarding what has happened since that debate in January norm. That is the Government’s legacy in oral health and they were named for response yesterday. I am sad for the past decade. As we know, that has the greatest and disappointed that the Department came back last impact on the poorest and the youngest. In 2020, more night to say that we would not be able to get an answer than 70% of children did not see an NHS dentist, in time, which is a shame. I am surprised the data is not despite tooth decay being a leading cause of hospitalisation more readily available and hope the Minister will help for 5 to 9-year-olds. We also know the massive impact us with that today. The four questions were: how many that has on school absence. This is a serious social issue, practices hit the 45% target; how many missed the and we are letting our children down. 45% target but hit the 36% figure to avoid clawback; Where can we go from here? I do not think it is how many have given their NHS contract back; and hyperbolic to say that we are in the last chance saloon how many have served notice that they intend to do so? for NHS dentistry. All of the evidence shows that we are I hope that data is readily available. It would help us in clearly on a trajectory that is pushing patients from the our discussions about the future. public sector into the private sector. This is happening 71WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 72WH with the workforce too, pushing them from the NHS people safe—the profession, their teams and their patients. into the private sector, but there is hope and there are It has been a very slow rebuild, and infection control opportunities, and we need to grasp them. still lies at the centre of that. I would like everybody to First, we need contract reform. I support what the remember that, because it makes dentistry a uniquely Minister has said previously and publicly on contract challenging area to try to deal with. reform. It is welcome that NHS England and the dental I agree with everyone that dentistry was an incredibly profession are in the same place and have agreed very challenging area before the pandemic. Certain parts of sound basic principles for contract reform. That is very the country, including the east of England but also the good news indeed. We, as Opposition, will support this south-west, already had systemic problems. The hon. process and help build consensus around it. My major Member for Bradford South (Judith Cummins) and I call here is that we must go at pace to move beyond have had conversations about how we can improve this UDAs—my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South and drive things forward. The Healthwatch report published made some excellent points there—into a new, more yesterday shows that demand for dental access remains preventative future for oral health. We have got to be high, and that many patients are experiencing difficulties. ready by April 2022, so I hope the Minister can update I am not shying away from the fact that there is a problem us there. and that we need to work hard to fix it. However, there Secondly, I welcome the commitments made around was an access problem prior to the pandemic as well. I fluoridation. I bear the scars of many years of saying very much welcome the Healthwatch report, and I look that I believe Nottingham’s water should have fluoride forward to meeting the chair of that organisation tomorrow. in it, I do. The counter lobby, as the hon. Member for The pandemic has had, and continues to have, a Mole Valley said, are aggressive, vicious and very similar substantial impact on dentistry, and I am grateful to in many ways to the anti-vax movement. However, if dentists and all their teams for their continued resilience the Government bring forward sensible proposals, I and dedication in providing the best care for their would be very keen indeed to build consensus around patients under extremely challenging circumstances. They them. This is a great national prize and a great opportunity have had to adjust to working differently and responding for public health. to new challenges, especially around infection and control Thirdly, we need a renewal of oral health as a core measures, which I know they find restrictive. My hon. element of public health. The Government should reverse Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) their cuts to the public health grant so that local authorities brought members of the profession and we discussed can provide preventative services, particularly in the how difficult it is to work in the PPE and so on. We are poorest communities and particularly targeted at their looking, with Public Health England, at how we can children. I am glad that the Government now want to provide them with that assurance. However, once again, consult on reintroducing schemes such as supervised at the heart of this lies the fact that my primary concern toothbrushing, but it is hard not to have a slight sense is to make sure everybody is safe. I would not be doing of grievance given that local communities were already what I am tasked with if that were not the case. doing this before they had the means to do so taken Ventilation was bought up by several people. There away. That is what happened, but now we must move are significant and practical financial and timing challenges forward. Again, we should be doing that at pace. in assessing and putting it in. Not every dentist owns Finally, we should take a robust look at the supply their own premises, and not every dentist acts only in chain. The Minister knows I have concerns about the their own premises. However, I have asked NHS England dentistry supply chain, particularly for dental labs, which what we can do in this area, what is practical and what have not been part of any of these contracting conversations can be achieved by working with the profession. The but are significantly impacted by them. aerosol-generating procedures obviously involve high-speed To conclude, we entered this crisis having underfunded drilling, creating a fine spray of saliva, which creates a and under-supported dentistry. We have navigated this heightened risk of transmission, as pointed out. In crisis by treating the profession as antagonists, rather response to our usual high street dental practices, we than partners. If we want to build a new future for oral required dentists to wear full PPE and to rest rooms health and dentistry, we can do it by investing in it and early in the pandemic for up to an hour. That caused all coming together. I hope to hear a commitment on problems, and challenges with getting volume through. that from the Minister. That caused problems, and challenges with getting volume through. With the new guidance, however, the time in 10.40 am many cases is down to as little as 10 minutes, depending The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health on, as I have said, the level of ventilation and other and Social Care (Jo Churchill): It is a pleasure to serve things. That has been an important step forward in under your chairmanship, Ms Bardell. I congratulate allowing greater throughput in practices and has helped the hon. Member for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin) on to facilitate more care for more patients. But we are securing this important debate. We have heard during asking the profession to see patients on the basis of the debate that we all want better dentistry. I would like need. As everybody has pointed out, there has been an us to have that conversation in a constructive and positive enormous backlog for some considerable time. We need manner going forward. to ensure that we are seeing the people who have the I thank all members of the dental profession. This most urgent and essential need first. That is why people has been incredibly tough, but there is a reason. I very will not always get a routine appointment at the first gently point out that dentistry uses aerosol-generating time of asking. procedures. Dentists work very much around the mouth Taking revised IPC—infection prevention and control— and nose, where there are saliva and droplets. The requirements into account, we have worked closely with whole onus of what we did at the beginning was to keep NHS England in considering what levels of NHS dentistry 73WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England25 MAY 2021 Oral Health and Dentistry: England 74WH

[Jo Churchill] inequality and on available capacity where it will impact oral health most. We are looking at and targeting those can be delivered in the current environment. It is undeniable vulnerable groups who have been referred to by so many that the pandemic and the necessary steps that we have hon. Members. had to take to protect dental patients and staff have led The situation remains challenging, even as we see to a reduction in the number of patients treated. That is more and more people being vaccinated, and certainly self-evident, but we are continuing to work with dentists, in Bedford there are challenges. I spoke to the hon. the broader profession and NHSE to develop a road Member for Bedford last week about surge testing and map, which is essentially what everybody needs in order turbo-charging the vaccination programme in Bedford. to move forward. We need to be aware that, when there are these challenges, I know that many across the House are concerned we have to look at dentistry and be doubly careful that about the thresholds; the hon. Member for Nottingham we are aware of variants of concern in some of these North (Alex Norris), who is always constructive in areas. these things, has said that they were introduced last Many patients are still experiencing difficulties in year. But there is a fine line here. In the beginning, we finding an NHS dentist. NHS England’s customer care supported the profession with 100% of payments for centre can help people, and patients with urgent need what it was delivering, but we now need to get that can also call NHS 111. I say to the hon. Member for volume up. We cannot have no targets for delivery; we Norwich South (Clive Lewis) that there are 10 urgent cannot have a drive towards giving more patient care dental care, or UDC, teams across Norfolk. So, if but not ask the profession to deliver more. That just anybody needs that number of teeth extracted or is in does not work. Dental practices have been asked to pain they should ring 111 and they will be directed to a deliver more care, prioritising based on clinical need, UDC for urgent care. and in that way we have sought to target available capacity at those who need it most. I am pleased to say Actually, we are seeing broadly the same number of that approximately 95% of practices exceeded the threshold patients through urgent care as we were pre-pandemic, for full remuneration set in the last quarter of last year, showing that the current prioritisation is keeping numbers so up to March. The average performance in February stable. However, the need for urgent care is not wavering was 59%.1 The hon. Member for Bedford will be pleased and in all reality it will rise, because people have been to hear that 87% of his local NHS practices have waiting for a longer period of time. already exceeded the threshold, and there is still time to I acknowledge that the Healthwatch report also highlights submit the activity for quarter 4. the fact that information on NHS dentist availability is We have continued to monitor the levels of NHS care not always easy to access. Again, I have tasked others being delivered, and on that basis we have set the new with going away and making sure that patient information threshold of 60% for dental activity and 80% for is more readily available. So, NHS dental practices will orthodontic activity between April and September. Sixty be asked to update their information online, because per cent. still means 40% of people who were seen much of it is out of date, meaning that it is much harder before not being seen, and that was still not a system for individuals to see what is available locally. The update that was enabling everybody to be seen. That is why we will mean they can find the care they need. have challenges throughout the system, but the thresholds I have also asked that we truly look at and identify were based on data. The accusation that they were not where we have dental capacity and where we have dental modelled properly and we did not look at them is deserts, as it were. That goes to not only where we target actually not fair, because we have done that. I am the workforce—we are working with the GDC very terribly sorry, but I cannot remember who said that closely on overseas registration and so on—but how we people were not doing NHS care but reverting to private actually deliver, because parts of the country have much care. I think it was the hon. Member for York Central greater access problems than other parts. (Rachael Maskell), or was it the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson)? It is still a patient in their chair; it is Throughout the pandemic, we have supported NHS still activity; it is still volume. It is just a different way of practices, in addition to paying the full contractual value charging. for the lower ends of activity. We have also provided free PPE from the dedicated portal. As of 18 May, Again, the thresholds were based on modelling. There nearly 7,000 dental providers have registered with the is a need to lift capacity if we are to care for patients. We portal, which has shipped over 367 million items to are monitoring on a monthly basis, and the thresholds dentists, orthodontists and their broader teams. have been put in place for six months to provide some stability to the system. To improve access for those who I will move on to contract reform. The pandemic need it most, NHS England has also provided a flexible continues to highlight the fact that transformation in commissioning toolkit; it has been charged to do that. dentistry is essential. If we are to address continuing As the hon. Member for Bradford, South said, as my inequalities, particularly in children’s oral health, I want discussions with my hon. Friend the Member for Mole to see a change in the way we approach dental services Valley have shown and as we discussed in the previous and oral health. We have much to build on, but it is time debate, which was initiated by the hon. Member for to move from research to action. Putney, these things are in train. We need to effect change. We are grateful to the prototype practices, whose The UDA—unit of dental activity—system, brought in commitment to the reform programme has been invaluable by the Labour Government in 2006, is broken; we over the years, and their ongoing participation has understand that it is broken, but these things take more enabled us to gather vital data, which will inform the than a month to put in place. To improve access for next stage of the reform process. I have spoken to those who need it most, we are pushing on with flexible people with different systems, from as close as Wales— commissioning, focusing on those experiencing health leading academics and practitioners—but also people 1.[Official Report, 7 June 2021, Vol. 696, c. 2MC.] 75WH Oral Health and Dentistry: England 25 MAY 2021 76WH from right across Europe. I have spoken to people who Asylum Dispersal Scheme: Stoke-on-Trent provide services that are totally free at the point of delivery and those who have a total charging system. 11 am No country has a perfect system. Dentistry offers an Hannah Bardell (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members incredible challenge. We have a mix of private, mixed that there have been some changes to normal practice in and NHS services, and I would like to maintain that order to support the new hybrid arrangements. Members environment. Weneed to develop a sustainable, long-term attending physically should clean their spaces before approach to dentistry that is responsive to the population, they use them and as they leave the room. I would also providing high-quality urgent treatment and restorative like to remind Members that Mr Speaker has stated that dentistry. masks should be worn in Westminster Hall between There is an opportunity for the whole team to support speeches. improved population health. Everything we eat goes in through our mouths, so dentists are great in helping to 11.1 am advise in other general areas of health, such as obesity Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): I beg and so on. Wehave a profession that is eager to contribute to move, more and enthusiastic to do so. High-quality prevention That this House has considered the asylum dispersal scheme in needs to be at the forefront, and I am determined that a Stoke-on-Trent. transformation in commissioning will help us to achieve May I start by saying what a pleasure it is to serve that. under your chairmanship for the first time, Ms Bardell. I am beginning to run short of time, for which I Today I need to talk about something that is incredibly apologise. A toothbrush costs 33p. Every parent needs important to the constituents of Stoke-on-Trent North, to help us to care for their children’s teeth. Oral decay is Kidsgrove and Talke, as well as those in neighbouring preventable. We need to work together, so that there is Stoke-on-Trent constituencies, and that is the asylum more supervised tooth brushing but also more parental dispersal scheme. Before I begin, I would like to place guidance, so that parents can help their children to have on record how immensely proud I am that Stoke-on-Trent healthy oral hygiene. has become the second home of the Home Office. With I want to see water fluoridation, which has been in the recent announcement, we now have more than some parts of England for decades, rolled out. I heard 550 jobs coming into the city of Stoke-on-Trent—new my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) jobs that will give entry-level opportunities at all grades argue that his constituency would be a good test place. for the fine people working there, of which 200 will be A provision needs to be included in the upcoming asylum case workers. health and social care Bill, to transfer responsibility to We have a long history of working with the Home the Secretary of State, in order to expand schemes more Office, and this relationship is set to become even deeper. easily. I am glad to see the unanimous support for that. I want to thank my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, Subject to funding being secured and to consultation my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Cabinet with partners, that is something we need to work on Office for all their work in making this move possible, as together. I want to prevent the unnecessary pain and well as my hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent suffering each year of those 37,000 children in many of Central (Jo Gideon) and for Stoke-on-Trent South (Jack our constituencies. Water fluoridation offers the quickest Brereton) and the leader of Stoke-on-Trent City Council, return on investment, giving as much as £35 return for Councillor Abi Brown, without whom, as a team, I do every £1 spent. not believe this would necessarily have got over the line. I hope it provides reassurance that I meet regularly with Following on from the excellent speech by my hon. the profession. I am meeting the all-party parliamentary Friend and neighbour the Member for Stoke-on-Trent group for dentistry and oral health next week. We are South, who spoke with the Minister at the end of April committed to ensuring that patients can access NHS in a similar debate, I want to keep reiterating the same dentistry and supporting the profession. A substantial messages. To be very clear, Stoke-on-Trent has done amount of work is going on, changing the way dental more than almost any other area in giving asylum services are provided to improve the health of the seekers a home. We had the fifth highest number of population. asylum seekers per 10,000 of the population across the Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). whole of the UK at the end of last year, with only Rochdale, Middlesbrough, Cardiff and Glasgow having 10.55 am higher numbers.At the end of August 2020, Stoke-on-Trent was housing 1,010 asylum seekers. This means that one Sitting suspended. in every 250 people living in Stoke-on-Trent is now an asylum seeker. Wehave a very high cluster limit ratio of 79%, compared with 29% in Birmingham, and our city council has repeatedly had to challenge proposals made over the last year to increase numbers further, yet the position is about to get even more unbalanced. The pandemic has led to roughly 10,000 asylum seekers being housed in hotels around the country. Under Operation Oak, which aims to vacate all hotel occupation as close to the end of the first quarter of 2021 as possible, companies such as Serco are stepping up their procurement of more permanent housing. To make the system fair, I would have expected 77WH Asylum Dispersal Scheme: 25 MAY 2021 Asylum Dispersal Scheme: 78WH Stoke-on-Trent Stoke-on-Trent [Jonathan Gullis] Rather than considering the situation in individual wards, Serco has undertaken only not to exceed the one Sercotofocusonareasthathavetakeninnoasylumseekers, in 200 cluster limit for the city as a whole. It has also but no. Rather than taking an even-handed approach, it refusedtoprovidereal-timefeedbackonpropertyprocurement, has chosen to double down in areas such as Stoke-on-Trent, offering nothing more than a current quarterly report which are already stretched to breaking point. on the properties being used for dispersal accommodation. Some 1,760 of those 10,000 people have been allocated Data from Serco shows that 66 requests were made for for dispersal in the west midlands. Although no figures properties in Stoke-on-Trent in February, compared to have been given for individual authorities,the west midlands 38 in Coventry,33 in Wolverhampton, 31 in Birmingham, region will be taking the highest strain in the country. It 14 in Walsall and Sandwell and 12 in Dudley. is very likely that the new arrivals could take Stoke-on-Trent From these numbers, it seems clear to me that Serco to the one-in-200 limit. The maximum number, based is not taking the concerns raised by the council seriously on the one-in-200 limit, would be 1,277 individuals, an at all. In fact, Serco has told the council that it will soon increase of just 267. start challenging councils when they raise concerns about the procurement of a requested property. The stark Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the truth is that our city has now reached its limits. Services, hon. Gentleman on securing this debate on an important already under strain, are being stretched even further issue. I am aware that the Government have a proposal and Serco has refused to engage with the council on this that by 2029 the proportion of supported asylum seekers at all. As such, I completely agree with the council’sdecision accommodated in each government region will reflect to pause its involvement in the dispersal scheme. their share of the United Kingdom population. Does he Far too often, we hear hon. Members and council agree that there must be substantially greater funding to leaders advocate doing more to help refugees, but when establish suitable family housing in these circumstances, it comes to action no one stands up. It is simply not and that to achieve this goal additional resources need acceptable that, while Stoke-on-Trent has taken in more to be set aside from today to make our asylum system than 1,000 asylum seekers and is set to take in more, a work? That would be a minor effort as we have 4,000 people host of councils around the country have taken in none. on the housing list. We want them and we support this In fact, more than 200 local authorities across the UK scheme, but we have to be aware of the reality that there have not given accommodation to a single asylum seeker. is not enough housing available. Given the frequent attacks that the Conservatives get Jonathan Gullis: I thank my friend the hon. Member from Labour, Liberal Democrat, Scottish National Party for Strangford (Jim Shannon)—he really is my hon. and Green politicians about how Conservatives are Friend and a superb colleague. He absolutely hits the heartless and must do more to help asylum seekers, one nail on the head. We will hear a similar story about Stoke- would think that they would want to lead by example. on-Trent, where people are looking for two-bedroom Imagine my shock when I learned that at the end of and three-bedroom homes and young families are December 2020, the champagne socialists in Labour-run struggling because we do not have one-bedroom sheltered Islington, Labour-run Exeter and Lib Dem-run Eastleigh accommodation for the elderly population to move have not given accommodation to a single asylum seeker. into. Our schools are at absolute capacity, if not over In Scotland, out of 32 councils only three have taken capacity, and we have a public transport system that in asylum seekers, and two of these—Edinburgh and has, quite frankly, been well and truly left behind. Fife—have taken fewer than 10. The fact is that Labour, All those factors need to be taken into account. the SNP and the Lib Dems talk the talk about helping Stoke-on-Trent also has the second lowest council tax asylum seekers, but are nowhere to be seen when it income in England, just above Hull, so there is a real comes to doing anything about them. Wehave to rebalance strain on the public purse. More needs to be done the equation, and to do that reform must come from a financially to assist areas like Stoke-on-Trent that are—I number of angles. will repeat this—happy to welcome those who are most I am 100% behind the Home Secretary, her new plan in need. We want to be an open, forward-thinking and for immigration and the new sovereign borders Bill. dynamic city, but we also want the spread to be fair I have discussed the plan with Reverend Jim Lowe of across the whole of our United Kingdom. Burslem Elim Church, who is a Trustee of the Burslem Based on the cluster limit of one in 200, the maximum Jubilee Project in my constituency, which the Home number of asylum seekers would be 1,277 individuals, Secretary visited in 2019. I thank the Minister for but based on the average of three asylum seekers per Immigration, my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay dispersal property, that will require 89 more properties. (Kevin Foster), for taking the time to meet us yesterday. Indeed, in many areas of Stoke-on-Trent this limit has Talking to people such as Mehdi Mohammadi, an already been broken, with concentrations of asylum Iranian refugee from the Burslem Jubilee Project, makes seekers far in excess of the cluster limit. it clear just how important it is that we continue to offer In March this year, some 14 wards in the city had a a safe haven for people who live in fear of persecution ratio in excess of one in 200. In Etruria and Hanley, a around the world. However, while we proudly continue ward I am proud to share with my hon. Friend the to act as a beacon for asylum seekers, we must also take Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon), the action to ensure that the people who are coming here ratio is one to 44 and in some other areas it is as high as are doing so legally and are genuine refugees. Failure to one in 30. These concerns have been raised by council deter illegal crossings will inevitably lead to more people officers directly with Serco, but, despite the council risking their lives to get here and scumbag gangs taking voicing its concerns to Serco repeatedly, the response to money out of people’s hands. Tragically, we will therefore date has been extremely disappointing. see more people die as they try to reach our shores. 79WH Asylum Dispersal Scheme: 25 MAY 2021 Asylum Dispersal Scheme: 80WH Stoke-on-Trent Stoke-on-Trent There must also be reform, so that councils that I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent refuse to willingly play their part are mandated to take North (Jonathan Gullis) for securing this debate on their fair share in the future. That point was made in the asylum dispersal in Stoke-on-Trent. It featured a rare letter sent from council leaders and MPs in the west intervention from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim midlands to the Home Office, which I wholeheartedly Shannon), which was appreciated. endorse. Dispersal must be organised equitably, so that It is important to underline that our United Kingdom councils across the country shoulder an even share of has a proud record of helping people facing persecution, the burden, rather than a few local authorities doing the oppression and tyranny. We stand by our moral and heavy lifting, as at present. legal obligations to help innocent civilians fleeing cruelty One reason why places such as Stoke have a greater around the world. A crucial part of this endeavour is number of dispersed asylum seekers is commercial the contribution that many local authorities make in opportunity. For companies such as Serco, which supporting those obligations being delivered in reality, administers the scheme, it makes sense to house asylum which applies especially to Stoke-on-Trent owing to its seekers in cheaper accommodation, giving the company contribution to the asylum dispersal scheme over a more profit per head. It cannot be allowed to continue. number of years. I gratefully acknowledge the Members Commercial considerations cannot be allowed to take of this House who represent the local community and precedence over local services and communities. the city’s consistent interest in this area of work—not I am pleased to say that my excellent local branch of just by talking in the House about supporting those Citizens Advice in Stoke-on-Trent and north Staffordshire seeking asylum, but by actually doing it in their area. As has suggested a potential solution, or at least a way that my hon. Friend will have heard me say before, declarations other areas might be encouraged to take part in the scheme. of solidarity do not house anyone. Rather than providing support centrally or nationally, The pandemic has had a significant impact on the the support budget could be divided and provided as a system of supported asylum accommodation run by the ring-fenced grant to the local authorities taking part in Home Office. In March 2020, at the start of the pandemic, the dispersal scheme. They could then commission local we took the decision to pause the cessation of asylum services that are tailored to local needs.There is a precedent support. That decision was taken to alleviate pressures for running services like this: the funding to support victims on local authorities from people exiting the asylum of crimeisdividedbetweenpoliceandcrimecommissioners, system, in line with the public health advice at the time. so that they can run things based on local needs. Continuing with the cessation of support at a time Torebuild trust in the system, I would urge the Minister when international travel was not possible and the to seriously consider the recommendations made by accommodation market was very restricted across all Stoke-on-Trent City Council on how to proceed. Serious nations of the United Kingdom would have posed a discussions have to be had with participating authorities significant health risk to communities across our UK and those like Stoke-on-Trent, which has paused its by leaving people unable to secure housing or to return involvement in the scheme, about what numbers they home. are expected to take in future. Figures must be agreed That decisive action has led to a significant increase for each local authority in the west midlands, based on in the number of people we are supporting while we existing and proposed numbers. A funding package linked consider their claim for protection. To put that in to the dispersal of asylum seekers should be agreed with context, we have seen around a 30% increase in demand participating authorities before any further dispersal for accommodation during the pandemic, resulting in takes place. Most important, the Secretary of State more than 60,000 asylum seekers currently being provided should start talking to non-participating authorities to with accommodation while their claims are considered. get their agreement to accept dispersed asylum seekers, That has also resulted in the use of contingency and she should use the powers to mandate participation accommodation, which was touched on by my hon. where necessary. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North, including In Stoke-on-Trent, we are proud to have given a hotels and Ministry of Defence sites, requiring some home to asylum seekers, and our city council has long people to be accommodated in such accommodation been a willing volunteer in the Home Office’s asylum for more than a brief period. dispersal scheme. We have a long history of working with the Home Office. As I said earlier, we will soon have We are, though, working closely with local authorities even stronger ties with the Department as we become its across our United Kingdom and our contractors to second home. Stoke-on-Trent City Council wants to procure more housing to reduce our reliance on that carry on working with the Home Office, but the situation type of accommodation and to minimise the amount has reached a point where local leaders have had to of time that individuals are housed in it. Despite the temporarily withdraw from the dispersal scheme. I do challenges that we have faced over the past year, we have not want that, the council does not want that, and I consistently met our statutory obligations to destitute know Ministers do not want that, but, frankly, the asylum seekers. That has included at times, and where people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke appropriate, continuing to provide accommodation where have had enough of other areas failing to chip in. I say support would normally be ceased. again that we are proud to have played our part and On asylum dispersal, which has rightly been the focus given a safe home to so many, but now is the time for of this debate, hon. Members will know that, by virtue other councils to do the same. of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, the United Kingdom has a statutory obligation to provide destitute 11.12 am asylum seekers with accommodation while their application The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the for asylum is being considered. Section 4 of the Act also Home Department (Kevin Foster): It is a pleasure to requires us to provide support for failed asylum seekers serve under your chairmanship for the first time,Ms Bardell. who would otherwise be destitute and where there are 81WH Asylum Dispersal Scheme: 25 MAY 2021 Asylum Dispersal Scheme: 82WH Stoke-on-Trent Stoke-on-Trent [Kevin Foster] I would reassure my hon. Friend that, as we take forward the new plan for immigration, we will continue reasons that they are not able to leave the UK. That has to focus on working with local authorities in the UK, to been particularly relevant over the past year during the move to a more equitable dispersal of asylum seekers. pandemic. My officials have been asked to prepare advice on I very much recognise the concerns of my hon. Friend options, including analysis of the impact on communities the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North. Many of the of the current system. I intend to consult local government issues that he raised are symptoms of our broken asylum on those options in due course, once there is more detail system. As he said, the measures proposed in the Home to discuss with them. Secretary’s new plan for immigration are intended to The Government demand the highest standards from make the asylum and appeals system faster and fairer, contractors and their accommodation, and we monitor which will have a direct impact on the provision of them closely to ensure that those are maintained. asylum support and the quantity of it that we need to Accommodation providers are required to provide safe, provide. habitable,fit-for-purposeandcorrectlyequippedaccommodation, However, I acknowledge the desire for a much more complying with the decent homes standard, in addition equitable dispersal of asylum seekers across the United to standards outlining relevant national or local housing Kingdom to ensure that all local authorities are playing legislation. their part. I acknowledge that that has been a particular concern in the west midlands, as highlighted by the The Home Office has worked closely with our providers local authorities that take part in the dispersal areas to improve property standards over the lifetime of the writing to the Home Secretary on this matter. I would previous asylum accommodation contracts, and has made very much repeat my hon. Friend’s encouragement to several improvements in the current asylum accommodation all local authorities to participate in the dispersal scheme, and support contracts. Where a provider is found to fall which would enable all areas, including Stoke-on-Trent, short of those standards, we work with them to ensure to take a fairer share as we reform the system. that issues are quickly addressed. When they are not, we can—and do—impose service credits. Housing providers My hon. Friend mentioned the April debate. I always are required to inspect each property every month. The find it odd to hear MPs state in debates that they are Home Office also inspects properties on a targeted basis desperate to do more, but they seem to think, for areas each year. such as Stoke-on-Trent, that it does not mean their own council becoming a dispersal area. Prior to the pandemic, In total, 3,300 property inspections were carried out my officials and local authority chief executives agreed in 2018-19, meaning that approximately 28.3% of the a changed plan to move, over time, to a more equitable provider property portfolio was visited. To reassure hon. dispersal of asylum seekers across the whole United Members, only 17 properties out of that 3,300 were Kingdom. Inevitably, work on that sadly had to be identified as having a defect requiring immediate action. paused as we responded to the immediate challenges of It is important to recognise that defects will occur in the pandemic, but I am pleased to say that we have properties that we are using, just as they do in social restarted that work. That would see the west midlands, housing or the private rented sector. We would always for example, moving from currently supporting more encourage service users or their representatives to raise than 12.5% of supported asylum seekers to less than issues with Migrant Help as soon as they occur, so that 10.5% by 2024. In addition to implementing the changed they can be attended to. plan, my officials continue to work with strategic migration As already mentioned, the Home Office, along with partnerships and local authorities to discuss the costs local authorities across the United Kingdom, has had associated with supporting asylum seekers in their region. to use hotel and other contingency accommodation Again, that touches on the point that the hon. Member during covid-19, although not to my knowledge in for Strangford made. Stoke-on-Trent directly, given the contribution already We have also implemented process improvements to being made as a dispersal area. When we look at procuring support collaboration between the accommodation contingency accommodation, we expect our providers providers and local authorities when identifying wards to engage with the police, local authorities and local for future procurement. The Home Office is also working contacts, prior to and during hotel use in all locations. closely with a wide range of local authorities to increase We regularly provide local authorities and partners the number of areas, as of today, that accommodate with information about hotel use in their areas, including, and support people seeking asylum protection. Every crucially, occupancy figures. We believe that the hotel local authority is being encouraged to contribute their and contingency accommodation we provide is of good share. In the past three years there have been some quality. Asylum seekers receive three meals a day, with successes, which I want to highlight, not just in the staggered mealtimes to cater for social distancing north and the midlands but in other areas—someone requirements, and wider support that meets all the current called them the Tory shires. Aylesbury Vale, Gosport, public health guidance and usual contracted standards. Oxford and Wiltshire are places that have come on board with the system. That means that we have been Where issues have been raised, we have inspected able to increase the number of voluntary dispersal many ourselves. Our providers have also conducted agreements from 92 to more than 160, and we continue surveys and acted on recommendations, in relation to to try to increase dispersal across our UK, for the very matters such as the type of food provided. We have reasons that my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent undertaken several measures in the short term to mitigate North touched on. It is worth noting that we have the use of hotels as contingency accommodation. Working agreements in place with more than 40 more authorities groups have been established with three providers, to than are currently participating but where the providers monitor the availability of accommodation within their find it particularly difficult to procure suitable properties. portfolios. The groups meet Home Office officials weekly 83WH Asylum Dispersal Scheme: 25 MAY 2021 Asylum Dispersal Scheme: 84WH Stoke-on-Trent Stoke-on-Trent and their objective is to mitigate moving to hotel use of those who have no legitimate claim for protection, wherever possible, by increasing the amount of dispersal reducing pressure on communities such as Stoke-on-Trent. accommodation in all regions of the UK. In doing so, we will not turn our back on those who do We again thank councils such as Stoke-on-Trent for need our protection where we can work with the United maintaining their commitment to this process, and to Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and our local other areas that have been prepared to increase their share, authority partners to provide a planned pathway to if I may put it that way. As a result we have reduced our integration in the United Kingdom for genuine refugees, reliance on contingency accommodation by 25% since just like the 20,000 we have successfully resettled from December, including exiting a number of hotels and the conflict in Syria with the help of more than 300 local ceasing use of the Penally site in Pembrokeshire. Hotels authorities. are only ever a contingency option. The Home Office does Through our recently announced new plan for not view them as a long-term solution; it is not a position immigration, we are committed to increasing the fairness we wish to be in. We do recognise that that presents the and efficacy of our system so that we can better protect challenge of how to ensure an effective system of dispersal and support those in genuine need of asylum while accommodation that does not overburden those areas deterring illegal entry into the United Kingdom, breaking that have already made a significant contribution, especially the business model of people-smuggling networks and when compared with some areas that are keen to make protecting the lives of those they endanger, including statements but not to provide solutions. from dangerous and unnecessary sea crossings. We must At our contingency accommodation at the Napier do all that we can to stop that criminal activity. It is site, all the basic needs of asylum seekers are met, putting lives at risk. There are no two ways about it. including their welfare needs. The site is catered with That is why we must move to make a change. I encourage three meals per day, and options are provided that cater all with an interest in this area to take part in the for special dietary, cultural or religious requirements. consultation on our new plan and help to shape the Additional meals can be provided as required. There is future in creating a firm but fair system. power, heating, water and access to phones, and support Again I thank all in Stoke-on-Trent—MPs, councillors items such as toiletries are provided, along with access and the community—for the commitment that they are to laundry facilities. All asylum seekers housed there making, and I urge other local authorities across the have access to a 24/7 advice, issue reporting and eligibility— United Kingdom to play their part in the asylum dispersal AIRE—service provided for the Home Office by Migrant process. As I have said before, simply making statements, Help, where they can raise any concerns regarding joining a protest or passing motions does not deliver the accommodation or support services. We are also looking support needed. I encourage more local authorities into how we can use time at locations such as Napier to from across the country to engage with the Home Office move forward asylum claims, including by creating on the strategic migration partnership to increase dispersal interview rooms on site. and relieve overall pressures on the system. Yet the root of the issue in Stoke-on-Trent is the fact As I said, the United Kingdom has a proud record of that our asylum system is broken. It is expensive and giving refuge and sanctuary to some of the world’s most has lost public trust. It is vital that the generosity of the vulnerable and oppressed people, and the city of Stoke- UK is not open to abuse from illegal migrants with no on-Trent has provided us with invaluable support in right to be here, and the ruthless criminal gangs that doing that, alongside other communities in the west make money from exploiting vulnerable individuals. midlands that I look forward to meeting in the near The challenges that we are grappling with have not been future. As I have confirmed a number of times, the UK helped by the pandemic, but we must also recognise the Government remain committed to ensuring that asylum pressure being put on the system by those who have no seekers and refugees receive the support and care that legitimate claim for protection or who simply want to they need, even in the challenging circumstances of a use the asylum system as an alternative route for economic pandemic. Yet we cannot do that without the support—the migration. While I continue to ask local authorities to active, engaged support—of local communities, something act as dispersal areas—in Scotland, for example, where that the city of Stoke-on-Trent can be proud that it has only Glasgow currently agrees to do so—we should not provided for many years and is continuing to provide. lose sight of the need for more fundamental reform of It is now for others to do their bit as well. the system, as my hon. Friend rightly pointed out. Question put and agreed to. We will stop those who come here illegally making endless legal claims to remain in our country at the 11.28 am expense of the taxpayer, and we will expedite the removal Sitting suspended. 85WH 25 MAY 2021 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 86WH

Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme lady was described as the life and soul of any party, yet she was mercilessly beaten by Falconer until her eye socket was fractured and her tooth punched through [MR PETER DOWD in the Chair] her lip. She was then spat on by him before he left the house and, in the final insult, he completely cleared her 2.30 pm bank accounts. Peter Dowd (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members He was, I am pleased to say, arrested and charged that there have been some changes to normal practices with section 18 GBH, an offence that is covered under in order to support the new hybrid arrangements, and the unduly lenient sentencing scheme. The matter went timings of debates have been amended to allow technical to trial, with Mr Falconer having pleaded not guilty. arrangements to be made for the next debate. There will However, Gemma Robinson, feeling unable to face him also be suspensions between each debate. I remind in court, took her own life—an event that devastated Members participating physically that they must arrive her family. Subsequently, Joseph Falconer was, quite for the start of debates in Westminster Hall, and Members astonishingly,offered a less serious charge under section 20 are expected to remain for the entire debate. Members of Offences against the Person Act 1861—an offence of attending physically should clean their spaces before malicious wounding. This is an offence that is not they use them and as they leave the room. I would also covered by the unduly lenient sentencing scheme and he like to remind Members that Mr Speaker has stated that pleaded guilty to that charge. Despite being described masks should be worn in Westminster Hall. by the judge in court as a “dangerous, jealous and controlling man”, he was given just three and a half years 2.31 pm imprisonment. Gemma’s family understandably felt that this was insufficient and they contacted my office. Only Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): I beg to move, at that stage were they made aware by my office that That this House has considered the scope of the Unduly there was no power to appeal, as malicious wounding Lenient Sentence scheme. under section 20 of Offences against the Person Act It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, 1861 is not covered under the scheme. Incredibly, had Mr Dowd. The unduly lenient sentencing scheme has Joseph Falconer been charged with coercive behaviour been in existence since 1989. It was brought in as a result under the harassment legislation, the scheme would of woefully inadequate sentences imposed by some have applied. judges, to the horror of many members of the public. Gemma Robinson’s family feel totally let down by the This included, of course, the so-called Ealing vicarage system and they are not alone. There are many instances case, in which an offence of rape was treated less seriously of people applying for a sentence to be reviewed under than an offence of burglary. Things had to change, and the scheme only to be told it is an offence that is not I am pleased to say that they did. covered. In fact, around a third of the applications are Having spent 20 years working in the criminal justice not covered by the scheme and the largest number of system myself, I am very aware of the fact that judges offences that are applied and are not under the scheme generally get things right, but they are human, and are actually under section 20 for malicious wounding mistakes happen. It is right that the defence can appeal and also for assault occasioning actual bodily harm. sentences that are too harsh, and it must therefore be There are many quite vicious and violent assaults taking right that the prosecution can appeal sentences that place in this country for which an unduly lenient sentence they feel are wrong too. is imposed. Yet nothing can be done about it by the There is a blanket right for the defence to appeal victims or by anybody else. against sentences in the magistrates courts, and a right Sadly, the injustices do not stop there. There is a strict to appeal against sentences imposed in the higher courts. 28-day time limit on applications to challenge sentences. That is right, and that is fair, yet the prosecution has I fully understand why we need some certainty and why very limited rights to appeal against sentences that are there is a need for time limits, but there is an arbitrary too lenient. It is in this respect that the scales of justice time limit in this particular case and it needs looking at in this country do not balance. again. Many rules can be avoided in criminal law if I pay tribute to the fact that the Government have exceptional circumstances apply. That should apply to extended the scope of this scheme more than any other. this time limit too. If there are exceptional circumstances, In 2017, 2018 and 2019, the scheme was extended, so we judges, at their discretion, can enable an appeal under have ensured that many victims of some of the worst the unduly lenient sentencing scheme to take place. crimes can see the sentences in their cases increased to a Currently, that is not the case. The criminal justice system fair level. The scales of justice are levelling up, but they is littered with examples of how injustices occur when are not there yet. I hope during this debate to make courts have their discretion removed. The 28-day time constructive suggestions about how we can build on limit on unduly lenient sentences is yet another example that good progress, and how we can continue. While I of where the courts do not have any discretion and, have raised the issue of unduly lenient sentences in this therefore, injustices occur. place several times before, I was prompted to do so A judge, for example, can withhold the publicising of again by a particularly harrowing case affecting one of a conviction and sentence if it would impact on another my constituents. trial. Yet even when that happens, as it did in a rape case Gemma Robinson from Dartford was attacked in in Newcastle that was highlighted in this place by my 2019 by her partner,Joseph Falconer,in the most despicable right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead manner. He had previously assaulted her and was subject (Sir Mike Penning), the judge has no discretion to to a restraining order, but had tricked or cajoled his way change or alter in any way the 28-day time limit. An both back into her life and into her home. This young offence is published after 28 days have elapsed, but 87WH Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme25 MAY 2021 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 88WH people then cannot do anything about it. That really have outlined the procedure for sentencing in written needs to be looked at again, because the defence can evidence to the Attorney General, knowing that the apply for time limits to be waived when lodging appeals, likelihood of an increased sentence is slim to none. and so should the prosecution. When I get home, I will be writing a letter about a The unduly lenient sentencing scheme applies only to case that I read about in the provincial papers on the the Crown courts. A youth court, for example, when way over this morning. I am not going to mention any hearing very serious cases such as rape cannot be subject names, because the person is a paedophile who carried to the scheme. That has caused injustice in more than out awful, horrendous abuse of a young child. He got one case, so we need to look at attaching the scheme to approximately 10 years in prison. He is back out again, types of offences only and not to the venue where the and guess what he did when he got out? He did the same case was heard. The whole scheme, when we think thing again to another wee defenceless child. I really about it, was brought in after a rape case was mishandled. feel that the law of the land needs to be incredibly Yet today, rape cases can be mishandled and unduly strong when it comes to convicted paedophiles with a lenient sentences imposed without the prosecution or pedigree that will never change. My letter will ask for the victim being able to do anything about it. We need that person to serve all his living life in jail and never to either to include rape cases in the youth court within the be let out again. It is important that the law protects scheme or to remove the ability of the youth court to people from the actions that such people carry out. hear such cases. I believe that a court or a judge should be able to The unduly lenient sentencing scheme is about fairness increase sentences in certain circumstances, and I believe and balancing the scales of justice so that we give one that we must broaden those circumstances. I will never side the same rights as the other in a court of law. By forget reading of a lady whose daughter had been left and large, in the most serious matters the scheme achieves severely disabled after a car accident caused by drunk that, but glaring anomalies prevent that in cases such as driving. She discussed how her daughter had lost her that of Gemma Robinson, my constituent, and far too future, and the whole family had lost theirs as a result. many others. Great strides have been taken to widen the It does not just affect one person; it affects the whole scheme, but we must ensure that the widening of the family, and that should be taken into account in a court scheme is a continuing process, not simply an event. sentence as well. The driver was sentenced and released The criminal justice system exists to protect the victims because he was a first-time offender. He then went on to of crime, and it does so through fairness and balance. It kill someone in his next driving spree. Two families have is therefore imperative that we continue to widen the been destroyed, but the second may have been saved scheme, and thereby continue to protect the victims of had the judge known that he could extend the sentence. crime. That option was not available or taken up. I am someone who believes that people can change. I am a great believer in that position; I have always said 2.40 pm that people can change. I live in a Province and represent Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the a constituency—Strangford—where people have changed hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) on setting after their past, and we have to accept that people the scene. I apologise in advance to you, Mr Dowd, to change. I am also a Christian and I believe that people the hon. Gentleman and to the Minister for having to can change their lives—I believe that, for I am a changed leave: I have a meeting at short notice with the Nigerian person from what I was many years ago, because of my ambassador to discuss some issues that I have concern religious belief and faith. I believe in second chances about. and I believe in rehabilitation. However, I also believe Thank you for inviting me to speak, Mr Dowd. This that there are consequences that have a price to be paid. is an issue that I feel strongly about. Most of the issues The Library briefing succinctly sets out the statistics that I speak about in Parliament come out of my office: on unduly lenient sentences. A parliamentary question they are things that I am made aware of by constituents to and response from the Solicitor General on 17 November and so on. I want to speak about that, if I can. This is a last year noted that the number of sentences considered very difficult matter, as the hon. Gentleman outlined. by the Attorney General’s office more than doubled The fact is that what one person sees as justice is not the between 2010 and 2016, from 342 to 837. The Attorney same as another person’s justice, although I perhaps General in 2016, the right hon. and learned Member for have a very simplified view. That is why we have the law Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), said that and legislation to set out sentences, and why we say that the 837 referrals received by his office in 2016 represented Lady Justice is blind, although some of the things that I a 17% increase from the previous year. will refer to are a blindness in the justice system. In June 2018, the Minister said that 2,347 people had I have sat in many a constituency surgery with the applied for sentences to be reviewed in the last 12 months, families of victims of assault, who have begged me to and a total of 1,040 sentences had been referred to his intervene in the sentencing of the perpetrator. When we office for consideration as unduly lenient. I probably know what that person did to their family member, we made 20 of those personally, looking for sentences to be have to restrain our emotions and control ourselves, reviewed in many cases, whether it be criminal violence and that is sometimes difficult. When the people who against people, unduly lenient sentences or the cases of assaulted their loved ones are given nothing of a sentence, those involved in horrific animal abuse; those are the they seek to find the broken pieces of the victim and things that I am concerned about. hold them together with love. They know that in six In 2018, the then Attorney General, the right hon. months’ time, due to good behaviour, the perpetrator and learned Member for Kenilworth and Southam, will be out on the streets again. It really nyarks me, to referred a fifth of all eligible cases to the Court of use an Ulster Scotsism; more than that, it angers me. I Appeal. Of these, 73% were found to be unduly lenient. 89WH Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme25 MAY 2021 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 90WH

[Jim Shannon] to guilty three days before going to court. When he was arrested at Stafford services, having just bought another So there was a change—a quite significant change. That bottle of vodka and some cigarettes, he said: indicates to me that there is a need for flexibility, so that “I have done what I have done. It is as simple as that”. courts can hand out stronger sentences. The attitude of that individual! In 2016, 190 cases were referred to the Court of The judge did take a very stern view of what had Appeal and in 141 of those cases the Court of Appeal happened, and handed down a life sentence with a increased the sentence. Again, that tells a story. In 2015, minimum of 16 years 9 months inside, but I am sorry: the Attorney General’s Office considered 713 requests, the people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and of which 136 were referred to the Court of Appeal as Talke do not believe that 16 years 9 months, no matter being potentially unduly lenient, with the Court of how long that might be, is enough—life should mean Appeal agreeing to increase the original sentence in life. We are left baffled. When a crime as calculated, as 102 cases. In 2014, the Law Officers considered 469 cases cold, as chilling as that has taken place, there should and referred 128 offenders to the Court of Appeal. Of never be an ounce of an idea that this person can ever those offenders, 86% had their sentences increased. see and smell freedom again. I am not a statistician by any means, but the reason I quote those figures is that it is important that we look at While I appreciate that that case is one of many that the referrals for unduly lenient sentences and see that will bring about much deeper legal contemplation over the courts have increased the sentences in the majority sentencing, probably by people far more educated than of cases. I on this issue, it is a really important issue to raise. The attack has left behind a broken family, mother and I believe we must trust our judges with wider powers father, uncle, friends, families and Ava, the daughter, and that we must do so in law. That is why I support my who sadly will no longer grow up knowing her mother. colleague and I have to say my friend, the hon. Member I know that across the House, we as Members sadly for Dartford, in what he is proposing today. I am quite come across this type of case far too often in our sure that those who speak after me will reflect that constituencies, in our local newspapers and in the opinion as well. correspondence that we receive. I wanted to be here to Speaking as someone who has been in tears with speak up for Kimberley, her family and friends. When I constituents in my office over sentencing issues, I know saw Natalie Neale, a friend of Kimberley, she said that that this is a very tough issue to deal with. I know the no amount of time would be suitable for this scumbag Minister is a very understanding and compassionate in order to pay back what he had taken. Minister, and that he will be able to reflect in his speech on our request, as individuals, regarding this matter. This wretch has robbed a child of her mother and cut However, we can and I believe we must make changes, short a young life. The idea even of his being released at to ensure that victims of crime are protected and that the age of 50 horrifies and mortifies me. I appreciate real rehabilitation of offenders can take place. that this is an individual case, and I give full praise to the current and previous Attorney Generals, who have always encouraged Members of this House from all 2.48 pm parties to write to them if they feel that an unduly Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): It is a lenient sentence has been passed. I will certainly be pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. making those representations to the Attorney General. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford There will always be a hole in the heart of Kimberley’s (Gareth Johnson) on securing this incredibly important families and friends. Their lives have been ripped apart, debate on an issue that is very emotional for the people but the man who caused that could potentially be free of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke. The to walk if, obviously, a probationary board felt he was Minister has heard me time and again talking about it, able to. whether it be chuntering in the voting Lobby or in In my opinion, this Government should go further meetings, or talking to him personally about my views and do more on unduly lenient sentences. When people on what we should do with some of the most violent hear a judge issue a sentence of even five, 10, 15 years or criminals and offenders in our country. Personally, I life, they want to see that time served. I appreciate that have a policy of, “Lock them up, throw away the key and there are technicalities of good behaviour,and that certain forget about them,”but I appreciate that we live in a society things may be handed down in a sentence that prisoners where perhaps that is not always going to be the case. can work towards, such as education, or therapy for an However, I will raise one particular case in my alcohol or drug addiction, but unfortunately it baffles constituency,which happened very recently and is extremely constituents when they see five years end up being two, high profile. It is a very sad story of how women in or 10 years end up being five. They want to see justice particular in this country are the victims of some of the served. most horrific crimes. I am here to talk about Kimberley I know that this Minister is incredibly patient when Deakin, a 29-year-old who lived in Burslem. She was he listens to colleagues such as me ranting and chuntering brutally attacked and murdered by a scumbag, whose from the Back Benches on this type of stuff and I know name is Lewis Crofts, in a cold and calculated manner, how seriously he takes every type of case that is brought to the point where this young lady, dying on her doorstep, forward. I want to use this opportunity to sayto Kimberley’s had to call for a neighbour to come and save her loved ones that they have an ally in me and in the child—a very young child, not far off the age of my Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke community. own daughter. The hurt and pain that this case has As for Lewis Crofts, the longer he is locked up, the caused the local community is palpable. It was such a longer that we never see that man walk on the streets. I brutal and premeditated attack, and the murderer showed hope he spends the rest of his life in prison until he absolutely no remorse. In fact, he only changed his plea passes, because as far as I am concerned, he forfeited his 91WH Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme25 MAY 2021 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 92WH right to be a citizen of this country—he forfeited his practical for the application to be made in time? Families rights in full—when he decided to take away the life of a are denied the right to challenge simply because they young woman and steal a child from growing up with are not aware that the scheme exists. her mother. 2.56 pm 2.53 pm Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. I Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): It is a pleasure thank the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd, and to for securing the debate. I apologise for being a few follow the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North minutes late; I was responding to an urgent question in (Jonathan Gullis). I pay tribute to the hon. Member for the Chamber on rape prosecutions. I meant no disrespect Dartford (Gareth Johnson) for securing this important to the importance of this debate. debate. The unduly lenient sentence scheme could be seen as a positive scheme that victims and their families The unduly lenient sentence scheme has helped many can engage with to challenge weak sentences that are pursue justice. It is open to anyone to access and challenge handed down by courts. However, the sad fact is that a sentence that they consider unduly lenient. It is an the scheme is unknown to the majority of the British extremely important and welcome mechanism. The scope public. In the 32 years since the scheme was launched, of the scheme was last expanded in 2019, to include the number of cases referred to the Attorney General’s 14moreoffences,includingchildsexualoffences,harassment office for review is negligible. offences, stalking and the offence of controlling or coercive behaviour in an intimate or family relationship. I have a constituent, Johnny Wood, whose sister Those were good and necessary reforms, but it is clear Jackie Wileman was tragically killed by a gang of four that there is still more to do to ensure that just sentences men who were joyriding a stolen HGV around Barnsley. are reached. They had 100 convictions between them. In this case, A number of important contributions have been made the law on dangerous driving limited the sentences given. to today’s debate highlighting the limitations of the After much campaigning the sentences have, thankfully, scheme. The hon. Member for Dartford mentioned the now been changed and will soon be life imprisonment. tragic case of his constituent Gemma Robinson, who It was too late for Jackie’s family, but I hope that the was beaten mercilessly and took her own life before the change will help many more in the future. Dangerous case reached trial. Her partner was sentenced to just driving is one of the crimes most referred to when three and half years, after being charged under section 20 people engage with the scheme. of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, which is There are too many tragic examples across all sorts of not covered by the scheme, thus clearly highlighting different crimes. Take the example of Josh Hanson, a some of the limitations. 21-year-old from Kingsbury, who was murdered at a The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan bar while on a night out. His killer, Shane O’Brien, Gullis), whose constituent was brutally murdered on walked up to him, pulled out a Stanley knife and sliced her doorstep, expressed his concern that her murderer his neck and chest. Josh and O’Brien did not know each could be released by the time he is 50. The hon. Member other beforehand, and had spoken for only seconds for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned his constituent before the attack. O’Brien went on the run for more who was left severely disabled after being hit by a drunk than three years and was on the Met police, Europol driver, who then received a lenient sentence. Following and Interpol most-wanted lists, before he was caught on from that, my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley and jailed for a minimum of 26 years in October 2019. East (Stephanie Peacock) raised the case of her constituent, Josh’s mother Tracey only found out that she could Jackie, who was killed by a dangerous driver. Because the appeal against O’Brien’s sentence on the last day that unduly lenient sentence scheme did not apply to that sort she was able to lodge an application—the 28th day. She of case, there was no redress for her family. My hon. lodged her complaint at 5.5 pm and was rejected by the Friend has campaigned tirelessly to increase sentences Attorney General’s office, due to the firm deadline of for death by dangerous driving offences, and that law 5 pm and the application’s being sent out of office will now change. hours. Tracey has since campaigned for reform to the The case of Ruth Williams also highlights the limitations unduly lenient sentence scheme, asking that the 28-day of the scheme.Ruth’shusband Anthony Williams strangled time limit be flexible in certain circumstances, and that her to death during the first lockdown. In February at the scheme be mentioned in judges’ sentencing remarks. Swansea Crown court, Mr Williams was found not guilty I am aware that the revised victims’ code came into of murder but admitted to manslaughter by reason of force last month, and that it includes a requirement diminished responsibility, and was sentenced to five for the witness care unit to inform victims about the years in prison. Had the victim been another member of scheme promptly when sentencing takes place. Assigning the public, it is highly likely that Mr Williams’s sentence responsibility to the witness care unit is not a definitive would have been more severe. The fact that this domestic solution, as it engages only with victims who are witnesses homicide has received such a comparatively lenient in the court case. Will the Minister consider placing a sentence seems to indicate that if the victim is a wife, as statutory duty on the Crown Prosecution Service to opposed to a random member of the public, then the ensure that the scheme is more widely known about and perpetrator is deserving of a discounted sentence. I available to victims? wrote to the Attorney General calling for that case to be Will the Minister also look to introduce flexibility referred under the unduly lenient sentence scheme, and around the time limit beyond 28 days in certain indeed it was. In April, however, the court of appeal circumstances, such as where there is a failure of the ruled that the sentence was not unduly lenient, highlighting responsible agency to inform the victim of the right to that the ULS scheme does not always work if the apply under the scheme, or where it is not reasonably sentencing guidelines do not allow for it. 93WH Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme25 MAY 2021 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 94WH

[Ellie Reeves] of the scheme. She urgently submitted her application to the Attorney General’s office on that 28th day as We need much more robust sentencing for some crimes soon as she had notice of the scheme, but her application to resolve that, especially in cases of violence against was rejected for being outside court hours. At the time women and girls. For example, the number of female there was not even a mention of office hours or court hours homicide victims in England and Wales is at its highest in the victims code or on the Government’s website. since 2006, almost half of those being domestic homicides. Tracey has campaigned to reform the scheme ever Cases such as the horrific murders of Ellie Gould and since, and has been asking for flexibility around the Poppy Devey highlight the inadequate sentence lengths 28-day time limit in certain circumstances, and for the for some of the worst crimes. After stabbing Ellie Gould scheme to be specifically referenced in judges’ sentencing multiple times, her killer was sentenced to just 12 and a remarks. Those are wholly sensible requests. Will the half years in prison. Labour has put forward an amendment Government agree to them? Although the revised victims to the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, calling code will include a requirement for the witness care unit for a review into the effectiveness of current legislation to inform victims of the scheme, it just does not go far in sentencing policy. If the Government do not accept enough. They only engage with victims who are witnesses the amendment, then Labour in government will in court, and the requirement does not apply to all commission a review to look at increasing sentences for victims, including those who are bereaved family members. domestic homicide, and reducing the gap in sentence In Josh Hanson’s case, for example, the duty to notify length between domestic homicide and other homicides. his mother Tracey would not have applied, because she The review will also examine the effectiveness of sentencing was not a witness in the case. Nevertheless, clearly she had more broadly for domestic abuse. an interest as the mother of her son, who had been killed. Further to that, there is currently no statutory minimum I therefore ask the Government to put a statutory duty sentence for rape—only a maximum sentence of life on the CPS to ensure that victims and their families are imprisonment. In 2020 alone, nine cases of rape were informed of the existence of the scheme, irrespective of referred to the Attorney General’s office through the whether they are witnesses to the case. I also call on the ULS scheme that had initial sentences of imprisonment Minister to look at extending the time period beyond ranging from two years to four years and 10 months. 28 days in certain circumstances—for example, where Two of those cases were for the rape of a child under 13, there has been a failure of the responsible agency to and one was for the rape of a child under 16. Despite inform the victim of their right to apply, or where there that, not one of the nine cases was referred by the are extenuating circumstances that mean the application Attorney General to the Court of Appeal. Labour simply could not be made in time. would end lenient sentences for rape by introducing a If we are to have true confidence in sentencing decisions new statutory minimum sentence of seven years, better and the scope of the ULS, we need tougher sentences reflecting the seriousness of the crime. Does the Minister for some crimes. We need flexibility around the 28-day agree with those proposals? time limit, and we need to give the Crown Prosecution Our laws must send a strong signal that violence Service statutory responsibility for informing the victim against women and girls will not be tolerated, but under and their family members about their rights of appeal. this Government we have yet to see tough action on None of that is outside the scope of what an effective that. We believe it is time for judges to be able to hand Government could bring about, and I hope that, following out enhanced sentences and increased punishments to this important debate, we will see action in this area. those who commit crimes on the basis of their prejudice against women. Our recently published green paper, 3.5 pm “Ending Violence Against Women and Girls”, outlines The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice those measures. (Alex Chalk): What a genuine pleasure it is to see you in I shall now discuss some of the procedural issues the Chair, Mr Dowd. I think I speak on behalf of the around the unduly lenient sentence scheme. As my hon. whole House when I say how pleased we are to see you Friend the Member for Barnsley East said, there is there. currently a strict and absolute 28-day time limit from I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford the point of sentencing within which an application (Gareth Johnson) for securing a debate on this important under the scheme may be made. Offenders, meanwhile, topic, and for the force, candour and articulacy that he may appeal their sentence outside the 28-day timeframe has brought to this important area—not just today, but in certain circumstances, so there is not parity between for many years. I pay warm tribute to him, particularly the two. The previous Attorney General made it clear for the way that he raised the case of his constituent that the 28-day timeframe was absolute, yet we desperately Gemma Robinson, who was brutally attacked by need flexibility around it. Joseph Falconer. My hon. Friend read out the sentencing My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East remarks by the judge, who referred to this gratuitous highlighted the case of Josh Hanson, who was just 21, attack and to “jealous and controlling” behaviour. I murdered in a bar while on a night out. The killer hope Gemma’s family will know that the shame of walked up to him, pulled out a knife and sliced his neck those remarks will haunt, and should haunt, Joseph and chest. He went on the run for three years before Falconer for the rest of his days. That cowardly and finally being caught and given a minimum sentence of appalling attack is one that we condemn in this House, 26 years. No agency ever made contact with his mother, and that my hon. Friend has drawn to the attention of Tracey Hanson, and she was not told that she could the House with admirable clarity and eloquence. I thank appeal the sentence under the scheme. It was only when other hon. Members, too, for raising with great force she approached London’s Victims’ Commissioner on and conviction their constituents’ concerns about victims the 28th day after sentencing that she was made aware who have suffered so grievously, 95WH Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme25 MAY 2021 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 96WH

Let me turn to the specific matter that we are considering To pick up on the points that my hon. Friend the today—the unduly lenient sentence scheme. As all hon. Member for Dartford made, I do want to set out in a Members have said, it is a valuable part of our criminal little detail the extent to which the scheme was expanded justice system. It was introduced in 1989, as my hon. over recent years. The Government have taken the Friend the Member for Dartford rightly stated. It has opportunity to extend the scope of the scheme so that it allowed prosecutors,victims of crime and, indeed, members covers more offences. In August 2017, additional offences of the public to ask Law Officers to consider referring a included: failing to disclose information about an act of sentence imposed by the Crown court to the Court of terrorism; fundraising contrary to the Terrorism Act Appeal for review, and to do so where the sentence is 2000; use of funds in connection with terrorism; money felt to be unduly lenient. If a sentence is referred by Law laundering; and weapons training. We extended the Officers under the scheme, the Court of Appeal will scheme to 19 terror-related offences, and to a further then review the sentence and may decide that it should nine terror-related offences in January 2018, such as be increased. I realise that we all well understand that. tipping off a terrorist and not complying with a restriction It is important to note—this is a point that the hon. after returning to the UK. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) underscored—that In November 2019, we extended the scheme to 14 more in the vast majority of cases, sentencing judges get it offences, including stalking; harassment involving violence; right. Day in, day out they deal with a range of cases the possession of indecent images of children; controlling that vary in complexity and severity, and I take the and coercive behaviour; abuse of position of trust in opportunity to commend them for their work. Thousands sexual offences; and possession of indecent images. and thousands of cases are dealt with by the Crown Including these offences in the scheme has helped to court, and a similar number of sentences imposed. ensure that perpetrators of these horrific crimes receive Overwhelmingly, the judges get it right. sentences that match the seriousness of their offending I pay tribute to the Sentencing Council—I will refer behaviour. to it in a moment in a little more detail—for its excellent The Government continue to keep the scope of the work in developing sentencing guidelines that have provided scheme under review and will carefully consider any judges with valuable guidance on deciding appropriate proposals to extend the scheme to cover more offences. and proportionate sentences. The guidelines are also of However, as the hon. Member for Strangford correctly assistance to Crown prosecutors who might be speaking indicated, the number of cases that have been referred to victims who may be interested to know how a case under the scheme has gone up quite considerably over might end up, in terms of the sentence, and to advocates recent years. speaking to their clients, because certainty and clarity I must stress that the decision to extend the scheme is are an important part of a criminal justice system that not a straightforward one,because it is very important—not does justice to victims. just to defendants, but also to victims and everyone It is important that the sentencing process is made else—that there is finality in sentencing. The general more consistent, as my hon. Friend the Member for rule is that a person should expect to serve the sentence Dartford, who has a distinguished career and practice a judge has imposed upon them. It should also be in this area, well understands. The introduction of the recognised that Parliament, in creating the scheme,intended sentencing code last year has helped to enhance the for it to be an exceptional power. transparency of the sentencing process by bringing In addition, this scheme has to be set within the wider together the procedural provisions that courts need to context in which it sits. The Government have brought rely on when sentencing offenders and structuring them forward a wider package of legislative measures in in an order that follows the chronology of a sentencing recent years to ensure that the punishment that offenders hearing. Frankly, the previous system was extremely receive reflects the severity of their crime. To pick up complicated, and there were an awful lot of opportunities the points that the hon. Member for Lewisham West for sentencing judges with the best of intelligence to fall and Penge (Ellie Reeves) quite rightly made when she into error. The sentencing code has helped to improve was talking about violence against women, it is worth that. However, on the rare occasion when there may taking a moment to reflect on what is now criminal have been a gross error in a sentencing decision, the which was not 10 years ago. scheme ensures that justice is served, helping to boost Forget the ULS scheme; first of all we must ensure confidence in the sentencing process. that it is an offence. More than 10 years ago, it was not Turning now to a few more specifics, the scheme applies an offence to carry out upskirting. It was not an offence to a wide range of the more serious offences dealt with to exert coercive control. It was not an offence to stalk. by the Crown court. This includes all indictable-only It was not an offence to send revenge porn or threaten offences, in other words, those cases that must be tried to do so. It was not a specific offence to take part in before judge and jury, and it covers offences such as non-fatal strangulation. It was not a specific offence to murder, manslaughter, rape and robbery. I pause to assault an emergency worker. There is an enormous mention that because where hon. Members have referred amount that has changed over recent years to ensure to specific cases involving murder,those cases are, of course, that people who do commit crime can be punished for within the scheme. I will turn in a moment to issues about it. I could add plenty of others, such as causing death by time limits, and so on, but it is important to note that careless driving. That is the first point. murder, manslaughter, rape and robbery are all within The second point is that over the past 10 years, there the scheme. It goes beyond that to certain offences that has been a significant increase in sentencing to ensure are triable either way, mainly related to terrorism, violent that the punishment fits the crime. There are longer physical or sexual assaults and drug-related crime. In sentences for stalking, desecrating war memorials, and preparing for this, I wrote down a number of offences animal welfare crimes. It used to be the case, as recently that it covers—it is a very long list, and I will not read as 15 years ago, that although someone would get a life them all out. sentence, the minimum period that they would serve 97WH Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme25 MAY 2021 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 98WH

[Alex Chalk] range of terrorism offences within the scope of the extended determinate sentence. No longer is it the case before being eligible for parole was normally 15 years. that someone is released on licence until the end of their Now, if a knife is used in the crime, it is a starting point sentence. In certain cases, that licence period will be of 25 years, and if a firearm is used, the starting point is extended so that they know that if they transgress 30 years. It is important to stress that there is not again, offend against the public, betray innocents, betray automatic release at the end of that period; that is the trust or destroy lives, they can expect to be punished earliest point at which they are eligible for parole. So we again. have more offences and longer sentences. The victims code has rightly been referred to. The Defendants are also required to spend longer in Government are taking action to ensure that victims are custody. We enacted the sentences for offenders of supported at every stage of the criminal justice system. particular concern provision, ending automatic release The new victims code came into force on 1 April, and it for terrorism and child sex offenders, and ensuring that sets out 12 key rights for all victims of crime. I respectfully convicted terrorists spend a minimum of two thirds of urge right hon. and hon. Members to have a look at it if their term behind bars before being considered for they ever get a moment. It is the culmination of two years release by the Parole Board. We have taken action to of extensive work, including wide stakeholder engagement ensure that offenders sentenced for serious sexual and with victims and victims groups to ensure we have a violent offences spend longer in custody. Last year, we clear and comprehensive framework for victims’ rights. delivered the Release of Prisoners (Alteration of Relevant The hon. Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock) Proportion of Sentence) Order 2020, which ended automatic made an important point about the awareness of this, release from custody at the halfway point for offenders and she is right to do so. Awareness is critically important, given a standard determinate sentence of seven years or so let me take the opportunity in this place to emphasise more for a serious violence or sexual offence that carries that right 9 is the right to be given information about a maximum penalty of life. the outcome of the case and any appeals. Right 9.4 says: The hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge “If you think the sentence given to the offender is far too raised the issue of rape. It is important to note that low”— under these provisions, if the individual is sentenced to that’s the heading— seven years or more, they will now serve much longer. “For some (but not all) cases sentenced in the Crown Court you Although I genuinely welcome her points on this—we can ask the Attorney General to refer the sentence to the Court of all want to see robust sentences in respect of those who Appeal to reconsider it. This can only be done if the Attorney attack women, and particularly for sex crimes—we have General thinks that the sentence was not just lenient but ‘unduly had to address a situation brought about by section 244 lenient’, such that the sentencing judge made a gross error or of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, whereby people who imposed a sentence outside the range of sentences reasonably committed that kind of crime would be released at the available in the circumstances of the case.” halfway point. It is a really important step to maintain It goes on, but I will not read the whole thing out. We confidence in the criminal justice system by ensuring all have a duty to amplify and publicise that, and I take that people are not automatically released at the halfway my opportunity to do so today. point. That was the situation that we inherited, and that Later this year, we will consult on the detail of the is the situation we have changed. victims Bill announced in the Queen’s Speech, which Stephanie Peacock: Does the Minister agree that there will enshrine those 12 key rights in law and hold agencies should be a minimum sentence for rape? accountable for delivering those rights to victims, with a view to their publishing a draft Bill for pre-legislative Alex Chalk: We would happily look at a minimum scrutiny. The draft Bill will set expectations for the sentence for rape. There are minimum sentences for standard and availability of victim support. Let me say firearms and third-strike burglary. Respectfully, it would also, because it was an important point, that the hon. sound more credible if we had had support on that issue Member for Lewisham West and Penge picked up in her on Second Reading of the Police, Crime, Sentencing powerful remarks what can be the context for appalling and Courts Bill to provide longer sentences for those crimes such as murder, namely, gateway offences of who commit these appalling crimes. I do not question domestic abuse and so on. for a second the commitment across this House to Weare investing record amounts in support for victims: ensuring that those who commit appalling offences more than £300 million this year, including £27 million serve their time, but there are ways we can do it, and it to recruit 700 independent sexual violence advisers and requires everyone to step up and vote for it. independent domestic violence advisers, in an increase To deliver on our manifesto commitments to make of more than 40%. That is important because we want punishments tougher for the most serious offenders and to ensure that women—it is usually women, frankly—who end automatic halfway release from prison for serious are the victims of domestic abuse have the opportunity crimes, we recently introduced the Police, Crime, Sentencing and support to go out and support the prosecution that and Courts Bill to Parliament. Measures in the Bill leads to that individual being taken out of circulation, if would ensure that serious sexual and violent offenders that is the will of the court and the proportionate and who receive a standard determinate sentence of four appropriate sentence. That means that the individual years or more serve two thirds of their sentence in does not go on to commit further appalling crimes. custody, aligning their release point with serious violent My hon. Friend the Member for Dartford referred to and sexual offenders sentenced to seven years or more. his specific constituent’s case, the dreadful case of Joseph To recap: more offences, longer sentences, longer in Falconer. He and other hon. and right hon. Members custody. But we have gone further, because we have made the point about time limits. It is important to note longer licence periods as well. We have brought in a wider that in the circumstances that he referred to—where, 99WH Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme25 MAY 2021 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 100WH say, a judge has imposed a contempt of court order and serving longer in custody, and there is the opportunity reporting restrictions because to report on the case for longer licence periods as well. We are extending the might lead to a miscarriage of justice elsewhere—the unduly lenient system to ensure that justice can be done, CPS automatically sends to the Attorney General’s and of course we will continue to keep the matter under office a summary of that case and it is then reviewed. So review.As we do so, we will have the remarks made by right that takes place as a matter of course to deal with hon. and hon. Members in this House firmly in mind. precisely that point. When it comes to deferred sentence, the clock only starts ticking on the date the substantive 3.24 pm sentence takes effect. Those are two aspects that I hope provide my hon. Friend with some comfort. Gareth Johnson: I thank the Minister for his response and for some of the reassurances that he gave us. I I accept, however, that there is a wider issue about welcome the expansion of the scheme that has taken ticking clocks. We have to weigh up the balance of our place, and I also welcome the fact that this is by and criminal justice system and recognise, as a matter of large a non-party political issue. Members of different conscience, that where an individual has been convicted, parties have different approaches to the criminal justice punished and disgraced at the hands of the state, they system, but ultimately we all want to see fairness prevail, need to know the maximum extent of his punishment, and I am pleased to see that. save in truly exceptional circumstances. There are cases, of course, when even if he is given a long sentence— We owe it to the victims of crime to make changes to tough—he is going to get a longer one because that is this scheme. We owe it to Gemma Robinson, Kimberley, what the Court of Appeal says. None the less, in the Jackie, Josh and Ruth, and the thousands of other majority of cases, it is important that when that person people who have inadvertently been wronged by the stands up and is told what his sentence is he has a sense criminal justice system. The 28-days issue is one that I that that is the sentence he is going to get. would implore the Minister to look at again, because as I said in my speech, I believe that when there is a lack of The other important point is for victims as well. discretion from the court in exceptional circumstances, Those people who have built themselves up to this injustice can occur. He was right to point out that we moment, to the sentencing hearing, which can be a want certainty for both the victim and the offender. At moment of great distress, want to know that that is it. A the moment, there is certainty for the offender, but there sigh of relief; this is over. We need to weigh that in the is less certainty for the victim, because people can balance to ensure that there is a measure of finality. appeal out of time in some exceptional circumstances. My hon. Friend made an excellent point about the That should also apply to the victims of crime. youth court and he talked in particular about the issue Let’s face it, if we were creating a criminal justice of rape and the extent to which that could somehow be system today, we would not create one like this. There is taken outside the unduly lenient scheme. He made a no way that we would say that the defence can appeal powerful point about that. It is important to note that against anything but the prosecution cannot. That is for those very rare cases that are dealt with in the youth simply not how anyone would create a system that court because, for the sake of argument, the offender is rightly prides itself on balance and fairness. As far as aged 13, for example, if the court decides, having learned the unduly lenient sentence scheme is concerned, we do about the offending, that it is so serious that the maximum not yet have that, so I would ask that this process, which penalty of two years with a detention and training order has rightly been pursued by the Ministry, continues to is insufficient, they do now have power—I have checked—to look at what other offences can be brought into the commit that to the Crown court. It was previously scope of the scheme, so that we can have equality of under section 53 of the Criminal Justice and Courts arms and ensure that justice prevails, which is, after all, Act 2015, but that has been superseded by the sentencing what we all seek to achieve. code legislation. Question put and agreed to. Let me close by saying that if people are to have confidence in the criminal justice system, it is critical Resolved, not only that people are convicted for the wrongs that That this House has considered the scope of the Unduly they have done but that they are required to serve a Lenient Sentence scheme. sentence that reflects the indignation, anger and upset that we feel as a society on their behalf. Sentences are 3.28 pm longer, and more offences have been created. People are Sitting suspended. 101WH 25 MAY 2021 Sport: Disabled Officials, 102WH Referees and Umpires Sport: Disabled Officials, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): When I saw that Referees and Umpires we would debate this topic in Westminster Hall, right away one of my constituents came to mind: a young fellow called Scott Hilland. I know his dad, mum and the family very well. Scott was born disabled, and he has 4.5 pm a powered wheelchair. He plays for and is the captain of Peter Dowd (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members the Northern Ireland wheelchair football team. It is that there have been some changes to the normal practice clear to me that he could be an official—he has officiated in order to support the new hybrid arrangements.Members some of the matches I have been to watch. The hon. attending the debate physically should clean their spaces Lady has been inspired by John McIntear, and I have before they use them and when they leave. I also remind been inspired by 17-year-old Scott Hilland. Members that Mr Speaker has stated that masks should be worn in Westminster Hall. Lucy Allan: The hon. Gentleman’s constituent Scott is a testament to what can be achieved by anyone who sets their mind to it. He sounds a wonderful person. 4.6 pm Despite the disruption caused by covid, John McIntear Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con): I beg to move, has now used his specially designed powered wheelchair That this House has considered encouraging more disabled to umpire his first match, which is a huge achievement. officials, referees and umpires into sport. John’s success led him to wonder whether there are It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, other officials using wheelchairs to participate in umpiring. Mr Dowd. I am particularly grateful that the debate has He found that, in fact, there is only one other disabled been selected and that the Minister for Sport is here to person doing so. So John decided that in the time left to respond. him he would campaign to give people who are disabled the opportunity to officiate in whatever sport they wish Inclusivity in sport is something we all believe in and to. His aim is to work with organisations to secure the want to promote. Great strides have been made in provision of powered and suitably modified wheelchairs Paralympic sport, the amazing Invictus games and disability to enable those with mobility impairments to officiate cricket. I have to pay tribute to the England and Wales in sports. Cricket Board for its amazing and inspiring work enabling people with disabilities to play cricket. We have a whole I will quote John McIntear, because I would like his range of thriving disability sports, enabling access and words to be put on the record. He says: participation. But what about officials who have disabilities? “I want to inspire and encourage people who are disabled to go What about officials who are wheelchair users? I am sad out and follow their dream. From the start, the principle of to say that this is an area that has been overlooked. It is umpiring from a powered wheelchair has never been about me. It seen as a barrier too far, a hurdle too high. is all about giving people with a disability the opportunity to officiate in whatever sport they wish to.” What does a young person born with cerebral palsy do if their dream is to be a football referee? What does a So often in life, we need someone to show us the way; cricket umpire with a lifelong passion for cricket do if someone to show us that something can be done; someone they develop a condition that means they have to use a to raise our horizons, to enable us to believe that the wheelchair? Should they just accept that they must obstacles in our path can be overcome; and someone to abandon their dream? Should they just give up on their give us the ambition and tell us that something is passion and allow their disability to stand in their way? possible. John has done that and it is awe-inspiring. We are all here in this place to tear down barriers that John has shown the way to sports organisations, stand in the way of the hopes and dreams of those we sports clubs, disability access organisations and people represent. That is what I am seeking to do today. with disabilities who want to officiate in sport. Indeed, I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister, I would say that John has also shown the way to us in who has been doing a fantastic and impressive job this place. John’s work gives people hope and creates during this covid period, for which I thank him, the opportunities where people believed there were none. extraordinary campaign of my constituent, John McIntear, John is a trailblazer and we can see from his example who has been championing access for people with disabilities that mobility impairments are not a barrier to officiating to officiate in sport. John is an inspiring person. His in sport. passion is cricket, and he is a qualified cricket umpire. The Minister will understand that I have some asks of He is also an ex-serviceman and he uses a wheelchair. him and his Department today. I ask him to reflect on John has a life-limiting condition and the prognosis, I what more can be done to support people with disabilities am sad to say, is not good. John was determined that his to officiate in sport, and I ask him to support condition would not prevent him from continuing to John McIntear’s campaign, by encouraging sporting umpire cricket, so he embarked on an inspiring campaign: bodies to engage with it and consider how they can train sports officiating from a powered wheelchair—SOPW. people with disabilities to become referees, umpires and It was a campaign that captured the imagination of officials of all kinds, and how they can create opportunities cricket and other sports across Shropshire. Working for participation. Also, can he please consider what his with the Royal British Legion, Motability, the Shropshire Department can do to promote and create opportunities Association of Cricket Officials, Shropshire Disabled for people who are mobility-impaired to officiate, including Cricket Club, the Shropshire Cricket Board and, of at high-profile events such as the much anticipated course with support from the Shropshire Star, John set Commonwealth games in Birmingham, which would be about raising funds to buy a specially adapted powered a massive opportunity to show the UK’s commitment wheelchair,which has enabled him to continue his passion to inclusion and mobility-impaired officials? I know that for cricket by officiating at cricket matches as an umpire. the Minister is, in fact, the Minister for the Commonwealth 103WH Sport: Disabled Officials, 25 MAY 2021 Sport: Disabled Officials, 104WH Referees and Umpires Referees and Umpires games; he has that great honour. It is possibly a very The Government’s strategy, “Sporting Future”, is arduous task, but it is also a great honour. So I know aligned with Mr McIntear’s ambition for more inclusion that it is in his gift to make that ambition a reality. in sport. It stresses the importance of helping under- Consequently, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s represented groups and isolated communities, including comments today. However, I would also be most grateful disabled people, to take part as active participants, if he could come back to me, once he has had the spectators and in the workforce. In addition, Sport opportunity to discuss this issue with officials, and set England has recently launched its new 10-year strategy, out ways in which we can all build on John’s remarkable “Uniting the Movement”. This strategy reinforces its efforts. commitment to increasing participation in sport and Very sadly, the prognosis for John McIntear’s condition physical activity for those from under-represented groups, is not good and the time left for him to campaign on including disabled people. this issue is very short. In closing, I must pay tribute to I am aware that even before the effects of the pandemic, John and his inspiring work, and I know that he will disabled people and people with a long-term health continue to champion this cause with energy and condition were twice as likely to be physically inactive determination for as long as he can do so. I also know as those without a disability or health condition. There that he will have every success. Perhaps he could be are deep-rooted inequalities in participation levels in persuaded to come and umpire a Lords and Commons sport and physical activity. We know there are people cricket match, to shine a light on his campaigning who feel excluded from being active and participating in efforts. sport, because the right options and opportunities simply Ultimately, I know that one day we will see a test are not there. That does not only apply to taking part in match or a Premiership football match being officiated playing, it also extends to the sporting workforce and by a mobility-impaired individual in a powered wheelchair, officials. That only strengthens the resolve of the and we will have John McIntear and his campaign to Government and national governing bodies to redouble thank for that. efforts to ensure we keep the focus on increasing opportunities for disabled people. 4.13 pm We have been working with Sport England, UK Sport and sports organisations such as Activity Alliance The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, to ensure that guidance is in place. That will help Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston): It is an disabled people to get back to playing, volunteering and honour to serve under your chairmanship today,Mr Dowd. participating in the sports they love as safely as possible. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Telford Sport has so much to offer. Everyone should be able (Lucy Allan) on securing this debate, and on raising the to take part. In turn, sport has so much to gain from important issue of inclusion for disabled people in all welcoming everyone in the community, including disabled aspects of sport and in officiating in particular. She is people. Diversity of experience can only be an asset. always a great champion of her constituents and it is a pleasure to respond to her. I also thank the hon. Member With the opening up of sporting activities over the next for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for his contribution and few months, projects such as sports officiating from a for highlighting another inspirational person, his constituent powered wheelchair will help to focus attention and Scott. resources on disabled individuals to have the opportunity to officiate in any sport they choose to participate in. As It is clear from my hon. Friend’s comments that she my hon. Friend the Member for Telford said, the UK shares my view that sports and physical activities at all has led the way in supporting, for example, Paralympic levels are hugely important to disabled people. That is sports and disability participation at a grassroots level why the Government and their arm’s length bodies, through Sport England with initiatives such as the “We Sport England and UK Sport, have worked closely with Are Undefeatable” campaign; and partnerships between the sector and national governing bodies, including the Sport England and Disability Rights UK, Aspire, Sense ECB, which my hon. Friend highlighted, to ensure that and international mixed ability sport. inclusion in sport remains a priority at all levels from grassroots through to pathways to elite sport and However, many who wish to officiate are hindered by governance. lack of access due to their level of mobility. Although programmes that focus on disabled coaches, volunteers At the outset, I would like to say that the Government and leaders are available, Sport England has also identified are absolutely committed and recognise the great a gap around disabled officials and referees and is importance of sport and physical activity for disabled actively reviewing how to address this going forward. I people who take part, including officiating and referring. would be happy to continue the dialogue with my hon. The opportunity to have a parliamentary debate on Friend on this area. what steps the Government are taking to support disability officiating in sport is a positive message in itself to send, Lucy Allan: In his capacity as Minister for the highlighting the importance of equality, diversity and Commonwealth Games, will my hon. Friend consider inclusion at all levels of sport. I warmly welcome the opportunities for disabled officials to participate? efforts of campaigns to increase diversity and inclusion, such as sports officiating from a powered wheelchair— Nigel Huddleston: I am delighted to comment on SOPW—founded by my hon. Friend’s constituent, the that. My hon. Friend is right: I am indeed the Minister truly inspirational individual Mr John McIntear, a Royal for the Commonwealth games,which is an absolute honour. Navy veteran and a cricket umpire who uses a powered As we get closer and closer—we are not too far away wheelchair. I would like to put on record my admiration from one year to go—the excitement and responsibility for his work and encourage other governing bodies in are certainly building up. It is really important that we sport to engage with his campaign, as my hon. Friend do include disabled people in the games, with the motto requested. being “a Games for everyone”. 105WH Sport: Disabled Officials, 25 MAY 2021 Sport: Disabled Officials, 106WH Referees and Umpires Referees and Umpires [Nigel Huddleston] Before closing, I should also mention that the Government are keenly aware that the last year has That is absolutely right; that will be a focus. been particularly difficult for many disabled people. For the first time, Birmingham 2022 will deliver the The recent Active Lives survey from Sport England has largest fully integrated parasport programme of any indicated that there was a general decrease in activity Commonwealth games. It is an important distinction levels, but disabled people in particular were less active. that the Commonwealth games, unlike the Olympic That is probably in part because they are more likely to games, is integrated. Therefore, we will look to further be reliant on facilities to participate in sport, which, of promote opportunities for equality and inclusion, including course, in many cases had to be shut. However, I am officiating, in the lead-up to and throughout the games. more determined than ever to work closely with the I would be happy to give my hon. Friend an update on sector to ensure that activity levels return as quickly as that at the appropriate time. possible to pre-pandemic levels and then beyond. As In terms of funds, certain funds and efforts are being part of that work, there will be scope to look at the made, such as the £20 million Tackling Inequalities opportunities for disabled people to officiate and referee, Fund from Sport England, which will be essential to as well as coach, volunteer and serve in leadership providing the necessary support at a community level, capacities in sport. catering specifically to the needs of under-represented It has been a pleasure to respond to this debate today groups through trusted community partners and alliances. and to speak on this really important issue. I commend Currently,£13.5 million has been awarded and £9.7 million my hon. Friend the Member for Telford and her constituent has already reached community organisations and groups again for their work on this. It is clear that this needs to across the country. be a joint effort; the arm’s length bodies that I work As a result, over 2,800 projects are actively being closely with, who are true experts in the field and care delivered by trusted partners close to the communities deeply about inclusion within sport, will be vital in that have previously been unserved or underserved by reducing broader inequalities in sport and creating more traditional delivery structures. Of these, almost officiating opportunities for disabled people. £2 million has been awarded to 500 projects specifically Understanding the needs of diverse communities, targeting disabled people in sport. including disabled people, within sport is key to taking Wealso welcome the efforts of inspirational individuals the first step to creating a level playing field, and today’s such as John McIntear and the FA licensed referee discussion has been genuinely useful in that regard. As Nathan Mattick, who showcase first-hand that disability we emerge from the pandemic, now more than ever it is is not a barrier to officiating. They are indeed role important that we keep progressing. I am more determined models. than ever that the sports sector emerge from the pandemic stronger, with inclusion at the centre of everything it There are also organisations such as the National does. Star College UK, which target their campaigning, funding and support into education, refereeing and officiating Question put and agreed to. opportunities for disabled people. It is now our job to ensure that the momentum continues and that the same level of effort and support is provided to disabled individuals who want to coach and officiate in the 4.24 pm sports that they so clearly love. Sitting suspended. 107WH 25 MAY 2021 Cyber-Fraud in the UK 108WH

Cyber-Fraud in the UK established norms and expectations, making reporting easier, alongside tracking reports and timeframes for action. 5.1 pm The Government have said that if something is illegal Peter Dowd (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members offline, then it is illegal online. This is a principle that I that there have been some changes to normal practice to am sure all colleagues can agree with, but, as is so often support the new hybrid arrangements. Timings of debates the case, we have seen little evidence that the rhetoric is have been amended to allow technical arrangements to being matched by regulation. be made for the next debate. There will also be suspensions The covid pandemic has shaken our economic between each debate. foundations to the core.It has also significantly undermined I also remind Members participating physically and the capacity of many people, businesses and organisations virtually that they must arrive for the start of debates in to cope with unforeseen financial costs. All of us in this Westminster Hall, and that Members are expected to room will have examples of the rise of online financial remain for the entire debate. scams in our communities. I receive information about I must also remind Members participating virtually new scams faster than I can publicise them to constituents. that they are visible at all times, both to each other and This is followed by stories of people forced into financial to those of us in the Boothroyd Room. If Members hardship as a result of losing money to these scammers, attending virtually have any technical problems, they all of which is truly heart-breaking. People are not should email the Westminster Hall Clerks’ email address, falling for these scams because they are naïve; they are which is [email protected]. Members being tricked by schemes that are astonishingly attending physically should clean their spaces before sophisticated, aping the look, feel and processes of the they use them and as they leave the room. I also remind legitimate enterprises that they are impersonating. Members that Mr Speaker has stated that masks should Economic criminals and scammers employ myriad be worn in Westminster Hall. methods to extract funds from consumers. However, since covid-19 one particular method known as brand 5.2 pm cloning scams has become more widespread. Criminals target retail investors looking for investment opportunities Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): I beg to move, online through paid-for advertising on sites such as That this House has considered cyber-fraud in the UK. Google and Facebook. These adverts direct victims to It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, fake price comparison websites, or to the cloned website Mr Dowd; I did not know that you had joined the Panel of a well-known and respected investment manager. of Chairs, so I am particularly glad to see you in the This also creates the untenable situation whereby Chair. multi-billion dollar corporations, which own and run I am grateful that this important issue was successful the platforms where adverts are posted, profit not only in the ballot, affording us a golden opportunity to keep from promoting scams but from the Financial Conduct up the pressure on the Government to take this issue Authority, which pays for adverts warning consumers and its real-life consequences seriously. We have heard against the very same scammers. This has created a in recent weeks and months from a growing number of perverse incentive; platforms have a financial incentivise colleagues from across the House who have voiced not to take proactive steps to block fraudulent adverts. concerns about the scale and scope of this problem, As many Members in this room will know, I have clearly illustrating that this is by no means a constituency- spoken out against the idea of self-regulation for some specific issue. time. Why would companies proactively prevent the Cyber-fraud impacts us all, and failure to address it adverts they are being paid to host? It is a case of the at the root risks undermining both our national security fox not only being paid to guard the hen coop but being and our personal safety. Simply put, it is as real a threat given free on-site accommodation too. to the weekly online shop as it is to national security. It The scale of this issue grew exponentially during respects no boundaries and views every home and institution 2020. The Investment Association recently published as fair game. It poses a clear and present danger to each statistics showing that the total number of reported and every one of us. incidents of this scam alone may have quadrupled from However, tackling cyber-fraud will require grit and approximately 300 incidents in July to 1,175 by October. determination, and a steadfast refusal to roll over to This resulted in estimated total reported losses to savers powerful online platforms that believe they are untouchable. from these scams more than doubling from approximately We must remember that their bark is worse than their 4 million in July to 9.4 million by October, with over bite. They know that if one Governments succeeds in 200 victims losing money. There is no depth to which implementing real change, more will follow. And we these criminals will not stoop. need that one Government to be the UK Government. Over the course of the pandemic, we have seen an The British public are now more likely to experience explosion in NHS scams. From antibiotics to testing, fraud than any other type of crime and the scale of vaccines to health insurance, scammers have continued cyber-fraud in particular is growing exponentially. It is to find ways to harness people’s fears and concerns to no longer enough to promote public awareness campaigns devastating effect. The NHS in England has teamed up about not giving out bank details or ignoring unsolicited with police and other agencies in a campaign to warn text messages. We need a substantial and co-ordinated the public about these scams. Text messages are linked response from financial institutions, Government and to booking sites that mimic the NHS sites and ask for lawenforcement. The country needs a standardised response personal details, including bank details. These bank and reporting mechanism, so that we can shape a set of details are then passed on and used to buy goods online. 109WH Cyber-Fraud in the UK25 MAY 2021 Cyber-Fraud in the UK 110WH

[Chris Elmore] A regulatory framework is needed not only to protect prospective victims of crime but to ensure that companies While people have been warned that the NHS will are clear about their responsibilities to support the never ask for bank account details, PINs or passwords prevention of crime and investigations. We need to face and will never arrive at your home unannounced or ask cyber-criminals united, and we must use all the resources for identity documents to be sent away, we still have all we can muster. heard the stories, particularly of elderly people, being Secondly, there needs to be a large-scale development conned out of significant amounts of money. Preying of skills and capabilities within our public sector. There on the scared and vulnerable in our society is utterly needs to be large-scale training across police forces to reprehensible, but it is part of a wider theme of the help them deal with the huge increase in cyber-crime in unpreparedness of Government to deal with the challenges our public institutions; to ensure that they have the that arrive. knowledge to deal with the cyber-threat. The Government The reality of online fraud is likely to be much greater need to harness the knowledge in our universities and as not every loss is reported and there is a known research agencies, and if necessary work in partnership disconnect between the amount of fraud and reporting with those who have the requisite cyber-intelligence—for to agencies. Action Fraud recently commented that in example, RUSI. We have the expertise and ideas, and we 2020 overall it saw 19,000 reports of investment frauds now need to bring that together to develop resilience across all categories. These are, of course, only the cases within our institutions. reported. We have to get rid of the stigma of falling victim to a scam so that more people are persuaded to Thirdly: come forward and report fraud. “The Home Office should provide increased resourcing for the National Economic Crime Victim Care Unit to ensure that the Another increase we have seen during the pandemic service can reach a wider range of residents in more force areas.” is home working, which has become a necessity for many people. Many businesses and employees are considering We also need to think about how we reach people. It is a hybrid working pattern once restrictions are fully eased. obviously important that we reach young people and Many have understood that, although home working educate them on the dangers of the internet, the way brings with it some downsides, particularly for those who people can target their victims, and how they are easily can easily be tempted to log in after hours, there are many reached in schools and educational settings. We should upsides, including greater flexibility for those with other not forget everyone else, particularly older people, for responsibilities, money saved on the commute and greater whom the internet is a completely alien landscape, comfort. But there are vulnerabilities for business and where they have not learned to mistrust the communications Government that need to be addressed. Domestic wi-fi from “the bank”, “the Post Office”or,recently,“the NHS”. and email systems do not usually have the same security Although resources to look after victims of crime are as business-operated networks. Business networks should important, we also need resources to prevent people not be the only ones protected by cyber-security. It is from falling victim in the first place. people who are often the target of cyber-criminals, and We stand at yet another turning point in politics and it is people as a whole we should be protecting. our society. Covid has exposed elements of our society Hybrid working is a natural extension of the increased that we cannot be proud of. The inequalities exposed by importance of the internet in our professional and the pandemic should shame the Government, but they personal lives, and the hybrid nature of our lives needs provide us with motivation and a point at which we can to be recognised in legislation. If the Government refuse recognise the problems and act on them. Online shopping, to act and upgrade our analogue legislation, businesses already expanding before the pandemic, has been turbo- and workers will continue to be at risk of fraud. charged.However,withthisboostmustcomeresponsibilities In February, the Royal United Services Institute for and a duty to society from the online retailers. We have Defence and Security Studies published its occasional seen that scams impact not only the wellbeing of their paper on the topic of cyber-fraud, “The UK’s Response victims but also that of those they impersonate. Online to Cyber Fraud: A Strategic Vision”, which notes that retailers and companies must contribute to their own the UK economy loses an average of £190 billion every security through taxation. We in real life, as it were, year to fraud, and that the majority of UK fraud now contribute to our physical wellbeing through taxes, involves internet-based scams. Despite the commitment paying for police officers and doctors. The online world in the 2019 Conservative party manifesto to the creation must contribute to its wellbeing and that of its customers. of a new national cyber-crime force, the Government’s The main problem identified by the RUSI report was approach to tackling cyber-fraud can be described as an the number and diversity of stakeholders involved across “alphabet soup”, according to the writers of the RUSI sectors, from Government authorities to law enforcement, report. They gave a number of key recommendations from financial institutions to private sector industry, for Government priority action, but I have highlighted and from cyber-security companies to IT companies. the three that I think are most important as we work to Everyone in this interconnected and technological make tackling cyber-crime a priority. world has an interest at stake. We need clarification on First: which Department leads on cyber-security and internet safety. “The National Crime Agency…should publish comprehensive guidance for private sector organisations on how they can lawfully Then there are the quangos. Of course, internet assist law enforcement in preventing and investigating cyber fraud infrastructure relating to national security will have a through information sharing.” whole level of security. Although we do not expect our We have to change the cultural view that companies business or private systems to be protected to the level must protect their information at all costs, even to the of GCHQ, the ambiguity of life on the internet these detriment of colleagues, customers and wider society. days and the host of immersive tasks that we now 111WH Cyber-Fraud in the UK25 MAY 2021 Cyber-Fraud in the UK 112WH complete online must come with the requisite protection That is essential in a time when we have become even and guidance. That requires a clear delineation of more dependent on making our digital defences robust responsibilities for all involved. and capable of dealing with the volume of fraud that we For too long, the Government have been complacent are now seeing. By the same token, if we are seeing about the dangers of increased internet usage, with cyber-fraud more often replacing traditional crime, we analogue laws in a digital age. Far too much leeway is must allocate the relevant resources to reflect this new given to social media platforms. Yes, we need to protect significance. freedoms of expression, but we also need to protect Equally, the Police, which holds the people against criminal elements who operate in this unique role in this landscape, must be properly funded online wild west to cause harm. False advertising is so it can continue upholding its national responsibilities. illegal. Impersonation to extract financial gain is illegal. That said, online fraud need not be as sophisticated; Theft, whether in real life or online, is illegal. We needed online threats can and do spring from almost anywhere. an Online Safety Bill that would have protected people, Last year, the City of London Police alone requested not one that merely hints at what is considered immoral. suspension of 54,000 telephone, email, website and Sadly, this is not the Bill we will be seeing in the coming social media accounts. Facebook, Amazon, WhatsApp, months. Instagram, Snapchat, Twitter and LinkedIn are the The Minister will no doubt set out how the Bill will platforms that feature most frequently in fraud and be the best thing since sliced bread, how it is world cyber-crime reports, and I am sure all of us in this room leading. I understand all of those things, but two years use at least one of those platforms every day. The on the Bill has made very little progress and we are now challenge is immense, and online service providers must going to pre-legislative scrutiny. Two years ago, it was take more responsibility to protect users of their services very positive and progressive, but now other countries and implement counter-fraud strategies. are taking the lead around the world. We need to know The suspicious email reporting service, developed in what the reluctance to act continues to be and why the partnership with the National Cyber Security Centre, Government are still delaying. It is important that, as has received nearly 6 million reports in the past year, we tackle fraud, we put our communities, children and resulting in the removal of more than 43,000 scams and businesses, which are at risk of cyber-fraud, first. 86,000 URLs,including those linked to covid-19, investment and online shopping fraud. I have used the excellent service 5.15 pm myself, forwarding suspicious emails to report@phishing. gov.uk, and texting 7726. We all have a part to play in Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) ensuring that those fraudsters are closed down as soon (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, as possible. Mr Dowd. I thank the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) for securing this timely debate. Clearly, updating the framework by which we enforce The scale of fraud and cyber-crime is remarkable, against cyber-fraud is a priority for this Government, affecting more people more often than any other crime. and I welcome their conviction on that, but the solution It represents more than a third of all estimated crime, is not one-dimensional. We all have a role to play in with 6.1 million incidents in England and Wales in the fraud prevention. We know not to leave our doors year ending September 2020. Eighty per cent of reported unlocked, our possessions visible in our cars or our fraud is facilitated by the use of digital technology and telephones on a table when we are out eating. We know the coronavirus pandemic means so many more of us that to keep ourselves safe, we have to take a degree of are using online services to shop and invest and for personal responsibility. The same needs to be replicated leisure. As our habits change, so do those of criminals. online. People, no matter what their age, should be taught how to keep themselves safe online. I believe that life on the internet should be as safe as our lives offline. If being exploited on the high street is Although there is more that can be done and, critically, unacceptable, the same must apply to vendors who is being done centrally, greater priority must be placed operate online. I am proud that the City of London on fraud at a local policing level. Too few of the cases Police, based in my constituency, is the National Police disseminated to local forces for investigation by Action Chiefs’ Council lead for economic and cyber-crime and Fraud have actually reached a judicial outcome. Simply the national lead force for fraud. It works to investigate increasing capability, capacity and focus centrally will serious, complex and cross-border fraud, which is beyond not address the substantial shortfall in local police the capability of a local police force, and provides forces to take cases forward. Now more than ever, there training for such police forces and private sector workforces needs to be a drive to boost local police capacity and through its Economic Crime Academy. With the support ensure consistency of approach. I am glad to see the of the City of London Corporation and stakeholders, Government respond with strength on this issue. It is including UK Finance, the City of London Police has my hope that strength does not wane, but is fortified to consistently shown how it can harness and work with protect our citizens against aggressive and malicious the private sector to tackle cyber-fraud, providing a abuses of technology. bridge for law enforcement into financial institutions and, importantly now, into the FinTech sector. 5.22 pm I welcome the draft Online Safety Bill announced in Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP) [V]: I congratulate the recent Queen’s Speech, which I hope will do much to the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) on securing tackle cyber-fraud. Indeed, the inclusion of fraud within the debate. This issue is becoming more and more the legislation will provide much needed encouragement prevalent. Sadly, in my own office I have heard several for online service providers to take responsibility for cases of people being scammed out of significant sums protecting users of their services and implementing of money. One gentleman was swindled out of around counter-fraud strategies to prevent malicious content. £200,000 through an online banking scam. A seemingly 113WH Cyber-Fraud in the UK25 MAY 2021 Cyber-Fraud in the UK 114WH

[Carla Lockhart] they should not have done. It is a desperate business to talk to these people; it really is awful. However, right innocuous mistake, a momentary lapse in vigilance, now in my constituency there is a climate of fear, with trusting those who appear to be who they are not, and a people getting really worried about perfectly innocuous lifetime’s work can disappear, with a life forever damaged. emails coming in. I put it to colleagues that that fear is Listening to victims recount their trauma is one of the not healthy for society. hardest things we do. We must ensure that we do all we To conclude, I have personal experience and have can to stop more of our constituents becoming victims. seen what happens. It has affected my family. I often It is a missed opportunity that the Online Safety Bill wonder, “Did my mother fall for any of these scams?” I does not go far enough to tackle cyber-fraud and scams do not know—she is not here to tell me—but I worry comprehensively.As a natural consequence of that inaction, that she might have done; God only knows. I welcome this spiralling problem will only get worse. Action Fraud the announcement in the Queen’s Speech that legislation reports that £1.7 billion was lost through cyber-fraud in will be forthcoming, as I am sure we all do, and it is up the past year. I struggle to comprehend how the to us all to ensure that it works and is absolutely Government cannot make it an absolute priority, as a watertight. All sorts of things could be done. Perhaps significant step to make our online world a safer space. the Home Office could put out information in easily Tinkering at the edges of the problem will not cut it. readable forms to all sorts of people around the UK The Government must tackle this problem, with wide- saying, “These are the things to watch out for.” We need ranging provisions in the Online Safety Bill. That is very such warnings, but we also need forms of reassurance much the view of campaign groups, regulators and that say, “If you are worried about something, call this industry. number. We can advise you and help.” I look forward to An area that needs specific action is online advertising, the rest of the debate. as it is the catch that hooks so many, whether the older retiree seeking to find a way to invest a pension, or 5.28 pm cloned websites that attract the younger online user. Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): I The sophistication of such scams is becoming more echo the comments thanking the hon. Member for apparent and must be met with a regulatory and legislative Ogmore (Chris Elmore) for bringing forward this important framework that is fit for purpose, ensuring that big tech debate. As we have heard, cyber-fraud is a huge challenge is held responsible while also equipping our own police right across the UK. From email scams, banking fraud, forces to be able to go after the perpetrators. We must fake websites, computer viruses and online relationship have action. All online economic crime must be addressed scams to investment scams, cyber-fraud is thriving as by the Bill. This is the opportunity and we must take it. cyber-criminals develop increasingly sophisticated ways to prey on victims in the cyber-world. 5.25 pm UK businesses lost more than £6.2 million to cyber-scams Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) in the previous year, with a 31% increase in cases at the (LD) [V]: What a pleasure it is to serve under your height of the pandemic, last May and June. The most chairmanship, Mr Dowd. May I add my thanks to the common type of attack has been hacking through email hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) for securing or social media, which accounted for 53% of attacks over this excellent debate? The subject is rather close to my the past year,leading to a loss of £2.9 million. Scams caused heart. I would like to share an anecdote, which may by hacking of computer services have been revealed as explain why I feel as I do. the second most common type of attack on businesses Before I was elected to this place almost four years over the 12-month period, but as we have heard, the ago, my mother passed away. She was 91. She had led a consequences for individuals who have fallen victim to good life, and I loved her dearly and miss her today. cyber-crime and cyber-fraud can be extremely far-reaching. When she died, her telephone number was going to be While technology has helped older people to be better taken back by BT, but I thought, “No; for sentimental connected during the covid outbreak, unfortunately our reasons I will keep her number,”and that was all organised. increased participation in the digital world has also What happened over the next few weeks and months provided additional opportunities for criminals. was a revelation to me, and a nasty one at that: I was As we have heard, cyber-fraud can leave its victims in getting scam calls—fraudulent calls. Gradually it sank desperate financial situations, and it takes many forms. in that my mother must have been getting these calls in Since lockdown began, more than £5 million has been particularly high numbers—in a way that my old telephone lost to covid-related scams and £16 million has been number had not—and that she must have been on some lost as a result of online shopping fraud. Criminals send database shared about among scammers as someone phishing emails and texts claiming, as we have heard, to who was elderly and vulnerable. be from the Government, Government agencies, Her It seems to me that there must be evil databases out Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and health bodies, there that scammers use to email stuff to vulnerable convincing people to open links and encouraging them people. Curiously enough, my wife gets the odd one—we to reveal sensitive personal or financial information. have got quite sharp at recognising them—and, exactly The most immediate impact, of course, is financial. as the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster Most people over the age of 70 who fall victim to a (Nickie Aiken) said, we report them in the correct serious scam can be dead within two years, such is the fashion. I point out in passing that a quick google on impact on health and wellbeing. It is important, as we such messages can be highly informative. have heard, that we have the tools to protect ourselves I, too, have had constituents who have lost large amounts online to minimise the risk of falling victim to those of money. The trouble is, it was just in a moment of types of cyber-crimes. Organisations such as Age UK inadvertent not thinking that they released information are doing a great amount of work to try to educate 115WH Cyber-Fraud in the UK25 MAY 2021 Cyber-Fraud in the UK 116WH particularly older people about what steps they can take With more of us switching to online patterns of to better protect themselves from cyber-fraud. However, communication, banking and working, fraud has risen as we have heard, we need greater public education on sharply in those spheres. The City of London police, to the issue so that we can all be better informed about the whom I pay tribute—the hon. Member for Cities of kinds of cyber-scams to which we may be vulnerable. London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken), in whose There are genuine fears, repeated in today’s debate, constituency they are situated, mentioned them as well— that the draft Online Safety Bill falls far short of what is have claimed that reports of online shopping fraud are needed to protect consumers in this digital age. The Bill at an all-time high. That is a worrying trend, which I will not seek to address fraud via advertising, emails or fear has been turbocharged by the current covid pandemic, cloned websites. The biggest online harm is scamming as others have said. Online scams have rocketed by and it will simply not be sufficiently covered in the Bill, some 1,500%, including shameful NHS-related scams which will leave consumers pretty much as exposed as and scams by fraudsters purporting to be from delivery they have ever been to cyber-fraud. companies. In the past 12 months, we have witnessed an Nearly 2 million people fell victim to online scams in increase in remote banking fraud of 61% and in online the six months after lockdown measures began in March shopping and auctions fraud of almost a third, while 2020. It is shocking that those living with mental health incidents of remote purchase fraud such as internet challenges are three times more likely to have lost money order fraud are up by nearly 132,000. to scammers,causing trauma and crippling money problems Weknow that the methods of fraud and the technology at a time when many people are already under huge used are constantly shifting, so the question is whether financial, emotional and psychological strain. We need the Government have kept up in the way that they extra resources to deal with cyber-fraud. The fact is that should. Sadly, I must say to the Minister that despite law enforcement agencies are struggling to keep up with increased warnings about the rise in fraud for many the creativity, innovation and sophistication of criminals years, it is clear to me that the Government still do not who engage in such behaviour. Those who can protect seem to have a coherent plan or strategy. I would argue us from online fraud need the resources to do so. that they have all but given up on tackling it. Alongside that, older people have been moving Do not take my word for it. We have seen the Minister’s increasingly online, sometimes by choice but sometimes colleagues openly admitting that the police lack the out of necessity because of the disruption to normal life tools needed to properly deal with the crisis. In response that the pandemic has caused. Our older people are to a letter that I sent him in April, the Conservative living longer, and with 1.3 million older people expected outgoing police and crime commissioner for Thames to be living with dementia by 2030, the most vulnerable Valley—who was the then national lead on fraud, as the people in our society need as much protection as we can Minister knows—said: give them. Weneed protection for all consumers, vulnerable “Little is done to combat major fraud…Police forces have or otherwise, and the Bill provides a real opportunity neither the time, capacity, nor capability to take on fraud.” for us to provide that. Does the Minister agree with his colleague? If not, Cyber-fraud is an evolving threat and will continue to could he explain why he was moved to make such prey on us in all sorts of insidious ways. We need more critical comments? education for the public, given that such crime is becoming more widespread. We also need more information about Wealso know that policing inspectorate, how we can all protect ourselves, more resources for in a scathing report, warned that the experts who can prevent and trace perpetrators, and a “lack of government or national policing strategies for tackling Bill that fully recognises the threat in ways that will give fraud…has profound implications”. confidence to consumers. I look forward to hearing the That report was dated April 2019—more than two years Minister’s response to the very important issues that ago. In February 2021, as my hon. Friend the Member have been raised today. for Ogmore mentioned, the hugely respected think-tank RUSI highlighted its concerns, which have been outlined. 5.34 pm Let us give the Minister the benefit of the doubt. Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab): It is a pleasure With a new national cyber-security strategy this year, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. I can say we can hope that finally the Government will deal with with confidence, particularly beyond the earshot of the flaws that have been raised and ensure that resources other Merseyside MPs, that you are the most distinguished are allocated to meet the challenge; he may want to Member in our region, so it is good to see that recognised touch on that. However, as has been mentioned, other in the position of authority that you now hold. I thank opportunities to act exist. For example, lots of individuals my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) fall victim to fraud online through fake advertisements, for securing today’s debate; he has been a tenacious often through social media platforms and search engines, campaigner on the issue and a strong advocate for yet there was no mention of addressing that specific victims. criminality in the Government’s draft Online Safety Fraud is an utterly devastating crime for individuals, Bill. In fact, I do not believe that the words “fraud” or households, businesses and institutions across all of “scam” are mentioned once. society. It often targets the vulnerable, leaving victims We cannot afford to keep letting the fraudsters get traumatised, hurt and despairing. It shatters personal ahead. So I urge the Minister to work, if he can, with finances, damages our economy and threatens our national his colleagues in the Department for Digital, Culture, security.With 4 million offences recorded last year—nearly Media and Sport, because I know that the Bill is a joint 12,000 incidents per day—fraud is now endemic. It Bill being developed between the two Departments, and comprises a third of all crime, and nearly one adult in to think again about the opportunity that might exist in 10 in England and Wales is affected. the Bill to address this issue. 117WH Cyber-Fraud in the UK25 MAY 2021 Cyber-Fraud in the UK 118WH

[Conor McGinn] a pressure on us all. Our approach to tackling fraud and online scams puts the interests of victims first—trying In conclusion, we live in an increasingly digitally to prevent fraud, providing the support that fraud victims connected age and we need clear cross-Government and need and catching the criminals responsible. It is my cross-system strategies to tackle the rise in cyber-fraud view, and that of the Government, that victims must be and to protect the public, the UK’s reputation as a safe at the heart of all that we do. We are deeply concerned place to do business and, of course, our wider national about the growth and scale of this type of crime, which security. If the Minister helps to do that, he will have my is increasingly sophisticated and rooted in complex support and the full support of the Opposition. social engineering. We are working across Government and with the 5.39 pm financial sector to ensure that as many victims as possible The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse): are able to claim their money back or are reimbursed. It is a great pleasure to appear before a fellow Scouser, We are keen to improve the quality, speed and consistency Mr Dowd, who was elected on the same day as I was, of victim support and reimbursement, and we have back in 2015, although we originate from different ends been working closely with colleagues in the Treasury to of the city of Liverpool—yours was the posh end and explore what more might be done to promote greater mine was slightly rougher. [Laughter.] It is great to see consistency across the sector. you join the Panel of Chairs and to preside with such However, we know that for victims, more is lost than wisdom over us today. just money. Our estimates suggest that around one in I am grateful to the hon. Member for Ogmore 13 people experience fraud each year. Many of those (Chris Elmore) for securing this extremely important targeted will suffer serious emotional harm; feelings of debate, in which Members have spoken with some passion shame, trauma and invasion of privacy are all common, and concern about this issue, underlining the fact that it as well as a loss of confidence in themselves and in the must be a significant Government priority. I can assure systems that are in place to protect them. We need to them that it is. prevent that kind of suffering. We recognise the devastating impact that fraud can We are working with national and local policing, have and how crucial it is that we do everything in our including police and crime commissioners, to support power to protect victims and bring the perpetrators to the victims of such crimes. The National Economic justice. As a number of Members have outlined this Crime Victim Care Unit, based within Action Fraud, afternoon, these crimes are occurring on a vast scale. also plays an important role by helping victims to According to the latest figures for the year ending recover and to protect themselves against future fraud. December 2020, fraud accounted for over a third of all Our law enforcement and intelligence colleagues also crime. Is there anybody in the nation who has not been play a crucial role in keeping the public safe and bringing touched by it? I myself was plagued with calls from a these opportunistic criminals to justice. Weare considering recorded message purporting to be the National Crime all routes, including legislation, to give them the tools Agency, telling me that my national insurance number they need to go after the fraudsters and, crucially, to had been suspended and that I was likely to be arrested protect those who are vulnerable to these harmful crimes. unless I pressed “1”. They obviously picked the wrong guy, in that I can call the NCA myself. But after I At the forefront of our response is the law enforcement highlighted that problem in a newspaper,strangely enough cyber-crime network, which operates at national, regional the calls dried up the very next day. These people must and local levels to combat the threat from this type of be readers of . crime and to provide support to those affected. We are In all seriousness, however, I was very sorry to hear boosting the capabilities of the National Crime Agency’s the experience of the mother of the hon. Member for National Cyber Crime Unit and increasing its ability to Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone). investigate the most serious cyber-crime. We are also These crimes can be extremely distressing, particularly continuing to invest in the cyber-teams in each of the when they are targeted at the vulnerable or the elderly, regional organised crime units across England and Wales, and we really need to focus, because behind the numbers to bolster the regional response. are real people, which we must always keep in mind. As the hon. Member for Ogmore outlined, fraudsters As Members have outlined, the impact of being will use any hook to commit these crimes and covid-19 targeted by fraudsters can be truly devastating, both has been no exception. We have seen criminals exploiting financially and emotionally. Victims’ lives are turned unease and fear,by opportunistically selling bogus personal upside down, their savings are gone and their confidence protective equipment, running phishing campaigns and is shattered. There is also a knock-on effect for society impersonating Government Departments and the NHS, as a whole. We know, for instance, that the money that as hon. Members have pointed out. We are also aware fraudsters can make goes to fund other serious and that fraudsters are using the roll-out of the covid-19 organised criminality, such as drugs and terrorism, and vaccine to target and scam elderly and vulnerable people. fundamentally the function of our economy is based on The NHS will never asked for payment or bank details; trust. Those economies that do best in the world are if someone is asked to provide financial details or pay those where there is low corruption, low fraud and a for the vaccine, that is a fraud. high degree of trust between individuals, and that is The Government are working intensively with local something that we must preserve for our economic enforcement teams to identify, disrupt and stop these well-being as well as for our mental wellbeing. appalling scams and amplify public safety messaging As people have pointed out, with the pandemic and about fake messages that claim to be from the NHS, the rise of people staying at home, the importance of instructing people to sign up for the vaccine. We have staying safe in the virtual world has increasingly become launched a gov.uk page containing advice on the matter, 119WH Cyber-Fraud in the UK25 MAY 2021 Cyber-Fraud in the UK 120WH as the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter industry to drive progress. A great example of that kind Ross asked, and we encourage the public to remain of partnership is the specialist dedicated card and payment vigilant and forward suspicious emails to report@phishing. crime unit, a police unit that targets and disrupts credit gov.uk, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of card fraud and demonstrates the positive collaboration London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken) has done, and between UK Finance, the City of London police and text messages to 7726, which is free. These systems the Met police, together with the Home Office, who are allow the National Cyber Security Centre and telecoms working to develop its relationships online. companies to remove the infrastructure that the fraudsters I am extremely grateful to all hon. Members who exploit. The suspicious email reporting service has already have contributed this afternoon. I hope that I have led to more than 5.8 million reports, with more than reassured people that this is a particular area of importance 43,000 scams and 84,000 websites taken down. for us as it grows. This is a novel area for crime fighting. We do want to make the UK the safest place in the The iPhone has only been around for 10 or so years—our world to be online. To achieve that, it is vital that we lives have been transported online in a frighteningly leave no space for fraudsters to operate. First and quick time. It is incumbent on us all—in Government, foremost, we must ensure that everyone who can, including in policing, in law enforcement more generally and in the public and private sector, prioritises preventing these those large organisations that steward, shepherd and types of fraud. That is critical to prevent the significant track us, follow us and sell us things online—to make emotional and financial harm to victims. As my hon. sure that we are as safe as possible. I believe that across Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster Government, law enforcement, those businesses and pointed out, in other types of crime we promote exactly beyond, we have a collective responsibility. We will be that approach. Did you know, Mr Dowd, that about working together and, in the years to come, we will all 50% of thefts from motor vehicles happen because be safer. people leave the car open and forget to lock it, and 43% of burglaries happen because somebody leaves a 5.48 pm window or door open? Cyber-crime is no different. Chris Elmore: I thank the Minister for his response. Preventing these types of fraud is critical to prevent the As we move into pre-legislative scrutiny for the online significant amount of emotional and financial harm to harms Bill, I hope that there will be broader scope for victims, who experience the economic damage to our tackling fraud. I am grateful to the Minister for Digital; businesses, and also to disrupting the organised criminals I was one of those who lobbied for that change, and I who perpetrate these crimes. To do that, we are taking am grateful to her for engaging, but the Bill is still too steps to ensure that fewer people fall foul of such scams narrow in its scope around individuals and fraud, and in the first place. how platforms will respond. On the draft Online Safety Bill, we have taken the I am grateful to all hon. Members who have taken decision to bring user-generated fraud into the scope of part today, including the shadow Minister, my hon. the Bill. The Government have engaged extensively with Friend the Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn), a broad range of stakeholders, including the finance and the SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for North industry, consumer groups, civil society organisations Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), for their support representing victims of fraud, law enforcement and other for ensuring that the Government do more on tackling public bodies. The inclusion of user-generated fraud in the increased threat of fraud in the UK. the Bill will require platforms to tackle some types of fraud, such as romance and investment scams, that It is important that, if additional legislation is needed, result in massive financial losses and inflict significant the Minister tackles that in the coming months. If he psychological harm. does not, the pandemic of fraud will only get worse. It is truly important that the Government respond in a The Bill would require tech companies to protect positive way. Too many people are losing out. Too many their users from those types of fraud, which is part of a people are losing their livelihoods. In some cases, people collaborative effort by the Government to tackle online are taking their own lives. As decision makers and fraud, working with law enforcement, regulators, industry legislators, we have to acknowledge that in the months and consumer groups. We are determined to relentlessly rather than years ahead. pursue those fraudsters and close down the vulnerabilities that they exploit. The Department for Digital, Culture, Question put and agreed to. Media and Sport will shortly be considering whether Resolved, tougher regulation on online advertising is also needed. That this House has considered cyber fraud in the UK. The response to fraud demands a collaborative,innovative response to keep pace with the changing threat and new 5.50 pm technologies, and we continue to work closely with the Sitting adjourned.,

17WS Written Statements 25 MAY 2021 Written Statements 18WS

our work with partners and allies, including the G7, to create Written Statements international frameworks that support open, secure science collaborations. Tuesday 25 May 2021 My Department is working hard to promote research collaboration, putting science and technology at the heart of our international partnerships. As a package, these measures are enabling this effort by making sure collaboration is safe, sustainable and secure. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL [HCWS53] STRATEGY

Research Collaboration Advice Team HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Consultation on Use of Force in Mental Health Units Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway): The Integrated Review sets an ambition for the UK to be a science and technology superpower by 2030. International The Minister for Patient Safety, Suicide Prevention research collaboration will be central to achieving this and Mental Health (Ms Nadine Dorries): Today, I am objective, and our research sector needs to be both open pleased to announce the launch of the Government’s and secure. consultation on the statutory guidance for the Mental The Government work with research institutions, Health Units (Use of Force) Act 2018. funding bodies and industry to ensure national security The Mental Health Units (Use of Force) Act 2018, risks are understood and responded to appropriately. I also known as Seni’s Law, was introduced into the and the Secretary of State for BEIS (Kwasi Kwarteng), House of Commons by the hon. Member for Croydon as well as our officials, have discussed these issues at all North (Mr Reed) in July 2017 and received Royal Assent levels within the research community.Weexpect institutions in November 2018. The Act is named after Mr Olaseni and individuals to make sure international collaboration Lewis, who died as a result of being forcibly restrained is safe, sustainable and secure. while he was a voluntary patient in a mental health unit. The purpose of the Act is to clearly set out the I am therefore pleased to announce that the Department measures which are needed to both prevent the use of for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) will force and then ensure accountability and transparency this year launch the Research Collaboration Advice about the use of force in mental health units. By promoting Team (RCAT). The new unit will provide an efficient good practice, identifying poor practice, and through a route by which researchers can access advice, as well as greater understanding of where there are problems or seek confidential consultation on sensitive and emerging issues for specific groups, we can address this nationally issues. Its leadership will operate from Manchester and as well as locally. The statutory guidance sets out how advisers will be distributed across the UK, available to we expect mental health units to meet the requirements researchersfromacrossthecountry.Advisers’responsibilities of the Act. This consultation will seek views on the will be limited to guidance, and they will not have clarity, content and approach of the proposed guidance. enforcement responsibilities. This is vitally important to minimise restrictive The RCAT will be a BEIS unit, but its advisers will interventions in mental health units which affected 12,000 work closely with officials in the Departments for individuals in 2019-20, and disproportionately those Education, International Trade and Defence, the Foreign, with protected characteristics under the Equality Act Commonwealth and Development Office and the National 2010. Technical Authorities. This is a landmark piece of legislation which enjoys This initiative complements a number of measures the support of patients, people with lived experience, already in place to manage risk within international voluntary and charitable sector organisations and the collaboration, including: NHS. Today’s launch represents a significant step forward in our efforts to prevent the use of force in mental Guidelines published by Universities UK, on behalf of the health units which would not have been possible without sector and with Government support, to help universities to tackle security risks related to international collaboration; the tireless campaigning of the hon. Member for Croydon North and the Lewis family. the Trusted Research campaign, run by National Cyber Security Centre and Centre for the Protection of National This consultation is part of the Government’s wider Infrastructure in partnership with BEIS and the Cabinet reform agenda to improve support for individuals with Office; severe mental illnesses. The Government published their one of the toughest export controls regimes in the world, Mental Health Act White Paper on 13 January 2021, including guidance recently published by the Department which sets out proposals for once in a generation reforms for International Trade specifically for academics; to the Mental Health Act, responding to and building the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office’s on Sir Simon Wessely’s review of the Act. We are also Academic Technology Approvals Scheme, a pre-visa screening working hard to achieve our NHS long-term plan regime expanded to cover a wider set of technologies and all commitment to give 370,000 adults and older adults researchers in proliferation sensitive fields; with severe mental illnesses greater choice and control guidance from the Intellectual Property Office on protecting over their care and support them to live well in their intellectual property known as the Lambert Toolkit; and communities by 2023-24. 19WS Written Statements 25 MAY 2021 Written Statements 20WS

The consultation will conclude on 17 August 2021. The TRANSPORT Government’s intention is to publish the final statutory guidance and begin commencement of the Act in November Airport and Ground Operations Support Scheme 2021. [HCWS55] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Robert Courts): I am tabling this statement for the benefit of hon. Members to bring to their attention spend under the Industrial Development Act 1982 (“the INTERNATIONAL TRADE Act”). On 24 November the Government announced the introduction of the airport and ground operations support scheme (the scheme) with the intention of supporting United Kingdom-India Free Trade Agreement: airports and ground handlers who have experienced the Consultation impact of covid-19 on their business while maintaining high levels of fixed costs during the 2020-21 financial year. The aim was to open the scheme in January and The Secretary of State for International Trade (Elizabeth ensure grant payments were made to eligible businesses Truss): This morning, the Department for International by the end of the financial year. Grant payments would Trade launched a public consultation on a future Free be made using powers in sections 7 and 8 of the Act. Trade Agreement (FTA) with India. This consultation Section 8(8) of the Act states that financial assistance will make sure that the public, business, civil society and for any one project shall not exceed £30 million, except trade unions across our nation, can have their say on so far as such excess has been authorised by a resolution Government’s approach to a future trade agreement of the House of Commons. The need to act and ensure with India. As with all consultations, my Department that support was provided promptly meant that the and I will continue to engage Parliament and the Devolved Government were previously unable to seek such Administrations throughout the scoping of an FTA authorisation from the House of Commons. with India. Today’s announcement is consistent with Section 8(9) of the Act provides that the Secretary of the Government’s approach of consulting widely ahead State shall lay a statement concerning the financial of launching trade negotiations, to ensure our position assistance before each House of Parliament if they are is tailored to the UK economy and supports our national satisfied that the payment or undertaking to pay financial interest. assistance in excess of £30 million was urgently needed India, as the world’s largest democracy, enjoys many and it would have been impracticable to obtain the shared values with the United Kingdom, as well as approval of the House of Commons by way of a strong cultural links. It is expected to become the second resolution. biggest economy in the world by the mid-2030s, presenting The need to provide urgent support to airports and significant trade and investment opportunities as a key ground handlers who play a vital role in the infrastructure partner for us in the increasingly important Indo-Pacific of the country made it impracticable to seek authorisation region. On 4 May 2021, the Prime Minister launched by way of a resolution, for payments under the scheme the United Kingdom-India Enhanced Trade Partnership in excess of £30 million and I am therefore tabling this (ETP) with Prime Minister Modi of India as part statement. The details of the spend on the scheme, of the “2030 Roadmap” between the two countries, which opened for applications at the end of January, are which includes a declaration of our shared intent to set out below: begin work towards a comprehensive FTA. A future comprehensive deal could provide opportunities for Total of Scheme Commercial Ground Handling businesses across the United Kingdom in key sectors of Grants Airports Operators mutual interest such as healthcare, technology and services. It would boost an already strong economic relationship £ 86,925,171.00 £ 65,075,462.00 £ 21,849,709.00 too; bilateral trade more than doubled between 2007 and 2019, standing at around £23 billion at the end of The Government remain committed to supporting the this period, and the bilateral investment relationship sector and has recently announced that the scheme will currently supports nearly half a million jobs across be renewed for the first six months of the financial year both countries.As in all negotiations, we remain committed 2021-22. Consent for the use of powers in sections 7 to upholding our high environmental, labour, product and 8 of the Act for the renewed scheme will be sought and food safety, and animal welfare standards in any separately. trade agreement with India, as well as protecting the [HCWS54] National Health Service (NHS). The online consultation opens today on www.gov.uk WOMEN AND EQUALITIES and will be live for 14 weeks. It will be accompanied by an information note that sets out the definition and scope of an FTA, along with detailed analytical information Covid-19 Health Inequalities: Quarterly Report on the United Kingdom’s current trade and investment relationship with India. Government aim to complete TheExchequerSecretarytotheTreasury(KemiBadenoch): scoping before the end of this year, with the results I am publishing today the third of my quarterly reports informing our approach to full FTA negotiations. to the Prime Minister on progress to address covid-19 [HCWS52] health disparities among ethnic minority groups. 21WS Written Statements 25 MAY 2021 Written Statements 22WS

Vaccination offers the clearest path out of the pandemic champions by the end of March, who are now playing a and remains the key step in addressing the disparities in vital role in combating misinformation and driving risks and outcomes from covid-19. My report summarises vaccine uptake. the unprecedented programme of measures taken to These combined efforts have led to increases in both tackle misinformation and to increase both vaccine positive vaccine sentiment and vaccine uptake across all confidence and uptake among ethnic minorities. ethnic groups over the last quarter. Vaccine confidence Over the last quarter the Government, together with has increased in three consecutive research periods and national and local partners, have responded quickly, the vast majority of people say they have already been effectively and flexibly to drive vaccine uptake. Measures vaccinated, or would be likely to accept a vaccine. include: A bespoke plan for vaccinations during Ramadan, including The Government are not complacent. The relatively the use of “twilight jabbing”; low uptake rates for some ethnic groups and emerging Establishing vaccination centres at around 50 different new variants remain areas of concern. The Government religious venues, with many more acting as pop-up sites, to will continue to encourage everyone to take the vaccine build trust and confidence within local communities; when offered. Piloting family vaccinations with a view to encourage uptake among multi-generational households, where the risk My report sets out a number of next steps, including of infection may be higher; improving our understanding of how the pandemic has Allocating over £7 million of additional NHS funding to impacted frontline healthcare workers, investigating any local sustainability and transformation partnerships to enable practical barriers to vaccine uptake by ethnicity, and targeted engagement in areas with health inequalities and improving the quality of ethnicity data in health records. with communities that are not vaccine confident; and Providing local health leaders with comprehensive data My fourth and final report will provide a further on vaccine uptake among those most at risk from covid-19, update and will include recommendations on how this allowing them to take targeted action. work to address covid-19 disparities should be taken My report also sets out progress with the community forward, as part of our longer term strategy to tackle champions scheme, which was launched in January. The health inequalities. 60 local authority areas participating in the Government- [HCWS56] funded scheme recruited 4,653 individual community

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 25 May 2021

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY— STRATEGY ...... 223 continued Clean Energy ...... 230 Levelling-up Agenda...... 224 Covid-19: Business Support ...... 228 Local Electricity Generation ...... 223 Energy Transition Projects: Scotland ...... 236 Net Zero Emissions Target...... 234 Entrepreneurship ...... 238 Renewable Energy: Carbon Budget...... 231 Environmentally Sustainable Transportation ...... 233 Steel Industry...... 232 Fire and Rehire: ACAS Report ...... 225 Topical Questions ...... 238 Gig Economy: Employment Rights ...... 230 UK Manufacturing...... 237 High Street Businesses ...... 236 Workplace Health and Safety Law...... 237 Hydrogen Economy ...... 228 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 25 May 2021

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL INTERNATIONAL TRADE ...... 19WS STRATEGY ...... 17WS United Kingdom-India Free Trade Agreement: Research Collaboration Advice Team ...... 17WS Consultation ...... 19WS TRANSPORT ...... 20WS Airport and Ground Operations Support Scheme . 20WS HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE...... 18WS Consultation on Use of Force in Mental Health WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 20WS Units...... 18WS Covid-19 Health Inequalities: Quarterly Report .... 20WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 1 June 2021

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 696 Tuesday No. 9 25 May 2021

CONTENTS

Tuesday 25 May 2021

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 223] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy

Covid-19 [Col. 245] Answer to urgent question—(Nadhim Zahawi)

Criminal Justice Review: Response to Rape [Col. 262] Answer to urgent question—(Kit Malthouse)

Telecommunications (Security) Bill [Col. 278] As amended, considered; read the Third time and passed

NHS Dentistry: Waveney [Col. 330] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Oral Health and Dentistry: England [Col. 51WH] Asylum Dispersal Scheme: Stoke-on-Trent [Col. 76WH] Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme [Col. 85WH] Sport: Disabled Officials, Referees and Umpires [Col. 101WH] Cyber-fraud in the UK [Col. 107WH]

Written Statements [Col. 17WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]