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Transcript of Episode 65, a Talk with a 2E Pioneer

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Transcript of Episode 65, a Talk with a 2E Pioneer Transcript of episode 65, A Talk With a 2e Pioneer Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:00:31] Hey, welcome to episode 65. I'm Emily Kircher-Morris. On this episode, we'll talk to Dr. Susan Baum. She's a widely renowned expert in the area of twice exceptionality and somewhat of a fixture in the broader area of neurodiversity. She joins us from her home in the Coachella Valley of California, where I understand it's a dry heat. That chat is coming up in just a bit. Before we get started, I wanted to mention that a lot of you have started following our Facebook page. It's about all types of neurodivergent learners and everyone is invited to chime in. We are at www.Facebook.com/mindmatters. You're also invited to join our Facebook group. It's called the Mind Matters Gifted Ed Advocacy and Support group so look us up. If you're a Twitter fan, we also hang out there. Our handle is @mindmatterspod. Up next... Susan Baum: [00:01:25] Hi everyone, I'm Susan Baum. I'm the provost at Bridges Graduate School for Cognitive Diversity in Education. Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:01:33] We'll be right back. (break) Let's get right into our chat with Susan Baum. She's the provost at Bridges Graduate School for Cognitive Diversity in Education. We talk a lot about 2e these days. Simply put, a twice- exceptional person is someone who is gifted and also has been diagnosed with another disability. A lot of times we see ADHD or Autism Spectrum Disorder. Susan, thank you for the chat today. Susan Baum: [00:02:00] I'm glad to be here. Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:02:01] So what drew you in, how did you get interested in twice- exceptional learners? Susan Baum: [00:02:07] It's an interesting story. I didn't know I was interested in it at all. It kind of happened by accident and I didn't realize until much later what these early things were that directed my career. I went to Syracuse University as an undergraduate, and I majored in special education and elementary education. And at that time, special education was very limited to physically handicapped, students who were deaf, students who were what we called mentally retarded at that point in time, and students who were emotionally disturbed. We didn't even use the word learning disabilities yet, it was just coming into play. At Syracuse University they had a pilot program going for children who didn't fit any of the categories that people were used to using. And, uh, they were very bright. They were hyperactive, easily distracted, they weren't learning to read, and they didn't know what to call these children. And they, you know, were calling them minimally brain damaged or hyperactive children. And so I had a course or two in that because I was there. So I knew a teeny bit about this unique population. I went for my first teaching job and they needed someone to start a program for these kinds of kids. So, again, we're not calling them twice- exceptional, gifted was not part of my background, and so I started a program all those years ago in Rutherford, New Jersey. We had 7 kids ages six to eight, they were delightful. Their IQs were high, they weren't learning, and they were those 2e children. I had no idea and neither did anyone else. And I worked with those kids for two years, learned an awful lot about them, but then I thought I ought to teach elementary school because I needed to understand better how these kids were different. And so I taught regular ed for a while, I got a master's degree in learning disabilities, and still did not think much about those kids. Until my first job as a learning disability teacher consultant in a school in New Jersey, where people with my title were put on a committee to identify children who are gifted. Because we knew how to look at kids' profiles. So I thought maybe I should take a course in gifted education, given that I was on a committee and we had some pilot programs starting in gifted education, and I was put in charge of them because one year when I was teaching, I had a gifted first grade, but we didn't call it that, it was, I had the highest kids in first grade. So I began to think about this and this job. There were so many kids who were identified as learning disabled, who were so bright, and I'm taking this course in gifted and I'm thinking, why aren't these children considered gifted? And so that's kind of where it began. And I said, you know, if I'm going to understand this better, I need to get a job as teacher of the gifted. And I did that and then ended up going to the University of Connecticut to get my PhD in Education of Gifted and Talented with my research being on how are students with high cognitive abilities different depending on whether they were labeled gifted or they were labeled learning disabled or they weren't really labeled either. So that was how I, I began this wonderful adventure. Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:05:38] You mentioned that when you started, they didn't really have the term 2e, or twice-exceptional. So right away, trying to define them is harder. And those learners are really very complex because they are cognitively advanced... Susan Baum: [00:05:53] But they also have at the same time, uh, some sort of challenge, uh, learning, uh, or behavioral or attentional challenge. And we, when we put those two uh, seemingly paradoxical pieces together we have a very unique individual. So unique that we tend to call these kids green. Because they have this yellow about them, all those advanced abilities, and yet they have this side that's much more problematic. And when you put those pieces together, it's hard to see yellow and blue, you keep seeing green, which makes them an extremely unique population of kids. Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:06:35] It's tricky because there's so many types of twice- exceptionality as well. What are some things that you've learned that are some signs that parents or teachers could look for that say hey, wait a second, maybe we need to consider that this child might be twice-exceptional. Susan Baum: [00:06:54] When we talk about how do we find them, let's start talking first, what if they're identified first with some sort of learning disability, according to special ed law. In that population of children are some really hidden gifted kids. They hadn't been noticed for their advanced abilities because the disability was very challenging. They're not reading, they can't focus, they don't talk. And so they get identified as a special education youngster and usually receive some sort of service for that disability. But in that group, you notice they have moments of brilliance. They might be experts in things that the other kids just aren't. Or they may have a particular ability in one subject area, perhaps math, but they don't write. And so you begin to wonder, what is this other part of this child? You know, maybe they, a lot of them are young engineers and they are great with computer programming and they're building things or drawing things. Often it is in an area, uh, their gift is in an area that's not necessarily verbal. That's why they're in special education. Right? So when I begin to notice those really advanced abilities, it could be in music, and the conversations they may have with you. And the other thing, how clever they might be at avoiding a task. They may be able to get, give you 25 reasons why they didn't do their homework. You have to think creativity, creativity, rather than irresponsible, right? So in that population first identified as a special ed category, ADHD, on the spectrum, learning disabled, look for those moments of brilliance. Look for their brilliance to come out in nontraditional ways. Look for them to choose to do things their own way, because they are better at doing it their own way. So in that population that's what I would look for. The other population is a child is identified as gifted. And this in some ways is more challenging for the child, because if they have mild dyslexia or they have attention issues that are more subdued, people begin to think they're lazy. So here we have a gifted child who's put in advanced classes, and they especially, it happens around fourth or fifth grade, they can't fake it anymore. Their high ability is not allowing them to compensate for those things that they really can't do because they do have some sort of other issue going on. And until you get those kids identified, it's so difficult because they're often on grade level. People just see them as being lazy because they may say to you, I could do it if I wanted to, but this is boring. And so they cover up those things that they can't do. So they're very challenging to find, and it makes it particularly, um, problematic because they don't often qualify, without below-grade level performance that, in some districts, is required for the kids to get special education support.
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