Transcript of episode 65, A Talk With a 2e Pioneer

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:00:31] Hey, welcome to episode 65. I'm Emily Kircher-Morris. On this episode, we'll talk to Dr. Susan Baum. She's a widely renowned expert in the area of twice exceptionality and somewhat of a fixture in the broader area of . She joins us from her home in the Coachella Valley of California, where I understand it's a dry heat. That chat is coming up in just a bit.

Before we get started, I wanted to mention that a lot of you have started following our Facebook page. It's about all types of neurodivergent learners and everyone is invited to chime in. We are at www.Facebook.com/mindmatters. You're also invited to join our Facebook group. It's called the Mind Matters Gifted Ed Advocacy and Support group so look us up. If you're a Twitter fan, we also hang out there. Our handle is @mindmatterspod. Up next...

Susan Baum: [00:01:25] Hi everyone, I'm Susan Baum. I'm the provost at Bridges Graduate School for Cognitive Diversity in Education.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:01:33] We'll be right back.

(break)

Let's get right into our chat with Susan Baum. She's the provost at Bridges Graduate School for Cognitive Diversity in Education. We talk a lot about 2e these days. Simply put, a twice- exceptional person is someone who is gifted and also has been diagnosed with another disability. A lot of times we see ADHD or Disorder. Susan, thank you for the chat today.

Susan Baum: [00:02:00] I'm glad to be here.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:02:01] So what drew you in, how did you get interested in twice- exceptional learners?

Susan Baum: [00:02:07] It's an interesting story. I didn't know I was interested in it at all. It kind of happened by accident and I didn't realize until much later what these early things were that directed my career.

I went to Syracuse University as an undergraduate, and I majored in and elementary education. And at that time, special education was very limited to physically handicapped, students who were deaf, students who were what we called mentally retarded at that point in time, and students who were emotionally disturbed. We didn't even use the word learning disabilities yet, it was just coming into play.

At Syracuse University they had a pilot program going for children who didn't fit any of the categories that people were used to using. And, uh, they were very bright. They were hyperactive, easily distracted, they weren't learning to read, and they didn't know what to call these children. And they, you know, were calling them minimally brain damaged or hyperactive children. And so I had a course or two in that because I was there. So I knew a teeny bit about this unique population. I went for my first teaching job and they needed someone to start a program for these kinds of kids. So, again, we're not calling them twice- exceptional, gifted was not part of my background, and so I started a program all those years ago in Rutherford, New Jersey. We had 7 kids ages six to eight, they were delightful. Their IQs were high, they weren't learning, and they were those 2e children. I had no idea and neither did anyone else. And I worked with those kids for two years, learned an awful lot about them, but then I thought I ought to teach elementary school because I needed to understand better how these kids were different.

And so I taught regular ed for a while, I got a master's degree in learning disabilities, and still did not think much about those kids. Until my first job as a teacher consultant in a school in New Jersey, where people with my title were put on a committee to identify children who are gifted. Because we knew how to look at kids' profiles. So I thought maybe I should take a course in , given that I was on a committee and we had some pilot programs starting in gifted education, and I was put in charge of them because one year when I was teaching, I had a gifted first grade, but we didn't call it that, it was, I had the highest kids in first grade.

So I began to think about this and this job. There were so many kids who were identified as learning disabled, who were so bright, and I'm taking this course in gifted and I'm thinking, why aren't these children considered gifted? And so that's kind of where it began. And I said, you know, if I'm going to understand this better, I need to get a job as teacher of the gifted.

And I did that and then ended up going to the University of Connecticut to get my PhD in Education of Gifted and Talented with my research being on how are students with high cognitive abilities different depending on whether they were labeled gifted or they were labeled learning disabled or they weren't really labeled either. So that was how I, I began this wonderful adventure.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:05:38] You mentioned that when you started, they didn't really have the term 2e, or twice-exceptional. So right away, trying to define them is harder. And those learners are really very complex because they are cognitively advanced...

Susan Baum: [00:05:53] But they also have at the same time, uh, some sort of challenge, uh, learning, uh, or behavioral or attentional challenge. And we, when we put those two uh, seemingly paradoxical pieces together we have a very unique individual. So unique that we tend to call these kids green. Because they have this yellow about them, all those advanced abilities, and yet they have this side that's much more problematic. And when you put those pieces together, it's hard to see yellow and blue, you keep seeing green, which makes them an extremely unique population of kids.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:06:35] It's tricky because there's so many types of twice- exceptionality as well. What are some things that you've learned that are some signs that parents or teachers could look for that say hey, wait a second, maybe we need to consider that this child might be twice-exceptional.

Susan Baum: [00:06:54] When we talk about how do we find them, let's start talking first, what if they're identified first with some sort of learning disability, according to special ed law. In that population of children are some really hidden gifted kids. They hadn't been noticed for their advanced abilities because the disability was very challenging. They're not reading, they can't focus, they don't talk. And so they get identified as a special education youngster and usually receive some sort of service for that disability. But in that group, you notice they have moments of brilliance. They might be experts in things that the other kids just aren't.

Or they may have a particular ability in one subject area, perhaps math, but they don't write. And so you begin to wonder, what is this other part of this child? You know, maybe they, a lot of them are young engineers and they are great with computer programming and they're building things or drawing things. Often it is in an area, uh, their gift is in an area that's not necessarily verbal. That's why they're in special education. Right? So when I begin to notice those really advanced abilities, it could be in music, and the conversations they may have with you. And the other thing, how clever they might be at avoiding a task. They may be able to get, give you 25 reasons why they didn't do their homework.

You have to think creativity, creativity, rather than irresponsible, right? So in that population first identified as a special ed category, ADHD, on the spectrum, learning disabled, look for those moments of brilliance. Look for their brilliance to come out in nontraditional ways. Look for them to choose to do things their own way, because they are better at doing it their own way. So in that population that's what I would look for.

The other population is a child is identified as gifted. And this in some ways is more challenging for the child, because if they have mild or they have attention issues that are more subdued, people begin to think they're lazy. So here we have a gifted child who's put in advanced classes, and they especially, it happens around fourth or fifth grade, they can't fake it anymore. Their high ability is not allowing them to compensate for those things that they really can't do because they do have some sort of other issue going on. And until you get those kids identified, it's so difficult because they're often on grade level.

People just see them as being lazy because they may say to you, I could do it if I wanted to, but this is boring. And so they cover up those things that they can't do. So they're very challenging to find, and it makes it particularly, um, problematic because they don't often qualify, without below-grade level performance that, in some districts, is required for the kids to get special education support. So those are those two populations. The third we probably shouldn't even talk about right now because that's when the gift masks the disability and the disability masks the gift. And I think those people get discovered later on in life. They hear about dyslexia and say, that's what I was like. And they hear about great artists who were dyslexic and they hear about actors who were dyslexic and they start putting the pieces together. Those kids, it's kind of lucky how we find them, because again, the circumstances are right. They happen to find themselves in some sort of context where that gift can come out, and that disability isn't blocking it from, uh, emerging.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:11:17] Right. When they're identified as one or the other, sometimes we forget to look for those other pieces.

Susan Baum: [00:11:23] Right.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:11:24] So let's talk about the impact of missing that second diagnosis.

Susan Baum: [00:11:28] I think it causes, uh, these kids to have lower self esteem, to not be very efficacious because they don't understand themselves why it is they can't do what other people tend to do easily. And yet they have these advanced abilities and they can't figure it out. And they know inside that there's something wrong. And people aren't understanding, it's kind of hidden. They don't feel like they fit. And I think if they're in special ed and their gift isn't identified, they may lose the opportunity to really develop that gift so as an adult, that gift serves them so well and helps them find their niche in society. Because often what's happening is, people are paying such attention to trying to fix them, they don't give them those piano lessons they want, they don't let them go to the school play. In the summertime they make them go to remedial camp rather than go out hiking. And so half of them is not getting developed. And they may get the disability somewhat moderated, but they're never going to be totally normal because when we have these challenges, they're something we live with our whole life.

And the other hand, if they are identified as gifted and they can't perform simple things like writing an essay, and they have to write that essay, again, they may become underachievers and people won't really identify, why are they underachieving? Where's their motivation going? Why are they giving up? And so it is difficult if only half of you is being noticed and the other half is so hidden. It begins to cause problems to the individual, him or herself.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:13:25] One of the other obstacles that these kids and adults face is that there's also so much stigma surrounding either giftedness alone or that disability alone, and a lot of misunderstanding there. When you have that layer, it's even more complicated.

Susan Baum: [00:13:45] Yes, because people don't understand enough about gifted to help these kids navigate the waters. So with a disability on top of that, it becomes such a steep, steep climb for these kids to get out of that valley or hole they find themselves in. What I find is, they need to be with other people who are like them. So you don't feel like you're so alone. There are many of us who are, have these differences and, uh, those that are more about being gifted or those that are ADHD. There's, you know, there's, it's not just one of us. We're part of a group. I mean, that's why was so important to talk about neurodiversity and to let go of the idea of what is normal.

And that's basically what we're trying to do at the graduate school. I don't want to talk about ADHD. I'd rather talk about, yes, you have this hyperactive personality or are you are, you know, it's hard for you to concentrate, but look what you bring to the table. And that ADHD ability is going to help you later in life if you choose the right career.

So if the kids don't fully understand who they are, they might pick careers later on that are not aligned to how their brain is wired. And then it's going to create problems. I love to tell the story, when we had a grant we were working with twice-exceptional kids on a two year Javits project. And one of the things we did in the summer is they came for a residential program and we brought some guest speakers in, and this was a person who was well known, he was an adventurer. And he had flown to Antarctica, climbed Mount Everest, he did all these things and he was ADHD. So we were really excited about him coming to talk to the kids. So he came with his brother and he starts talking about, he just discovered he's ADHD. And it's such a challenge because now he's the executive director of an environmental company, and he has to go to work from nine to five and the only way he can do his job that's so important to him is to be on medication and to be very structured. And he never talked about those wonderful things he accomplished because of his ADHD personality. And he picks the worst job on earth for someone who has a brain wired the way his was wired.

So I think we make a mistake if people don't understand how their brains are wired. What are those environments that will help them thrive? And what are those things that if you choose to pursue them, what are those supports you're going to need to get yourself successful in those areas?

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:16:47] Knowing yourself, being able to advocate for yourself, recognizing the strengths that come along with any of it. Because if you think differently, there's a need for that in our society, we need to be able to have different types of thinkers and problem-solvers.

Susan Baum: [00:17:02] Right.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:17:03] I think that that gets so lost sometimes, especially from parents, maybe, who are just learning about their child's, let's say, I think it's much easier to talk to parents about giftedness and identifying their child as gifted. But when you start to look at some areas that are a struggle, especially in the academic setting, that's really hard for them to hear. And so they want to sometimes fix the problem. It's like, well, It's not necessarily a problem to fix. We need to figure out how to support the whole person, help those strengths blossom, and support the areas of struggle, but those are the same accommodations that everybody has. It's just maybe different than the things that society is already set up for.

Susan Baum: [00:17:43] It's often because of the way we do school. I often say that school is a secret language arts lesson, and writing has become such an important element in school that we are creating some of these challenges. And we talk about, I talk about how these kids are green, but are they blue-green, or are they yellow-green? You know, it's shades of green. That giftedness shines when they're in environments where writing doesn't become the central focus of the curriculum. I mean, there are some districts where kids even have to write in physical education, or write in music, when that's that one area where they could shine and now they make it all about writing.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:18:21] Right, those students who struggle with writing, if that's what they're asked to do all the time, they never have that opportunity to shine. They never have that opportunity to fulfill that area of their potential and probably end up with a lot of really negative beliefs about themselves and school, and what their opportunities are in the future.

Susan Baum: [00:18:42] If teachers would just value that if they built a three-dimensional model of the DNA molecule, it's as impressive as a well written essay. And value what those kids can produce and they will be more willing to try to write when they know that they are good, good communicators. Uh, when you just give them an accommodation and say the rest of the class, you are going to write, but you don't have to write, you can record it or you can draw something, you know these kids won't take that accommodation. They think it's intellectual cheating. They think they don't want to be different. It's really important for them to fit in. And so accommodations, while they are necessary, are often roadblocks for these kids.

And so we'd rather the teacher give thoughtful choices to all kids so all of them have that turned to be, to shine. And then other days everybody has to do the hard stuff. So it's not like we're avoiding writing, but why does it have to be every single day? The day I want everyone to write, we'll scaffold that writing for that child. But the day I want to know you learned in social studies, make sure there are choices that don't include writing. If the child chooses writing fine, but make sure that there are other options. It goes so far into helping these kids have a better sense of self and a more positive academic self efficacy.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:20:18] Yeah. Obviously writing is not the only area of concern for twice-exceptional kids, but I do agree that it is one of the common threads that we see with a lot of those different diagnoses, whether it's a child who really just can't focus, if it's a, you know, a difficulty with the executive functioning and just putting the words, sequencing them in order and getting them down, or if it's a, you know, other types of communication struggles.

What do you think... I feel like it's a really good idea for teachers to offer choices to all students. What are some other ways that parents and teachers can advocate for twice- exceptional learners?

Susan Baum: [00:20:53] Um, I was in public education for most of my teaching career and then taught in a school where I was in charge of the elementary ed program. So it isn't that I'm coming from a specialized school, Bridges Academy, where we have small class sizes and therefore things work. It's not about that at all. It's really about teachers and parents understanding what strength-based talent-focused education is. For instance, how we group children in the classroom.

It's fun sometimes to do what I call talent grouping. So you're working with a project in science, social studies, or even literature. And you decide to work on the concept of maybe deceit in literature. And, um, you divide the kids up into their talent groups so all the artists are together, all the writers are together, all the builders are together, all the actors are together, and they have to come up with a project to show how deceit was a powerful force in that story, leading to the characters problem. Now, when you're in a group with other artists, that's like you're in a little gifted program. You're all artists, you're going to fight over whose idea's best, but that's a good teaching moment, saying, look, learn how to compromise kids. You have to learn, listen to each other. But if you're all artists, this is the best time to learn humility, because all of us have good ideas. Doing that once or twice a month, being in a talent group with others of your ability, not only helps you talent grow, it keeps you focused, you're going to have, uh, take more time on task, being able to focus much longer, and the products are so great. Everybody feels really good at the end of the day.

Sometimes then we use multi-talent groups. So every year group needs a writer, an actor, a builder, an artist. And each of them bring their talent to the table. And so whatever is produced in those circumstances is phenomenal. Everybody is there because they have something to contribute. And so using the right grouping strategies and there are many of them, is another way to advocate for that child fitting in and thriving in what we like to call a 2e-friendly classroom.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:23:14] What advice would you give to parents specifically, who are navigating these twice-exceptional waters? I think that that's a, a difficult path sometimes.

Susan Baum: [00:23:26] Well, sure. I think the first role parents have is to make sure the child is getting the services that that child needs. They need to make sure there's someone in the school who will become an advocate for that child so that they can step back and assume a different role, which I'll talk about in a minute.

Every piece of research done talks about the role especially of mom with these kids. It's because of mom's advocacy to make sure the child's needs are recognized and make sure that there were support in school. That these kids can get through the day and end up graduating. So if, that being done, to be a partner with that special ed team, with that teacher. Providing information to that teacher of when the child is at his or her personal best so that the teacher can try to emulate some of those conditions in the classroom. To ask the teacher how you could be supportive at home so the teacher feels that he or she has an ally. So once that's in place, I'd like the parent to step out of the academic, formal academics.

I don't want them to be the homework policemen. If the child needs support at home, you need to get a tutor or someone else because you as a parent need to be what we call the "opportunity maker." You are to continue to do enriching things with the kids, expose them to different museums, read the newspaper with them at night, watch the news together, go to a musical, make sure that, what the conversation is at the table is not "why didn't you do your homework," but something important, something that kids are worried about, something where the whole family can talk about it. Talk to the child about what he or she wants to talk about. Don't make the conversation be all about school, when you going to do your homework, you knew that spelling word last night, why did you not know it today? You need to get things to happen in school so it's taken care of at school and not brought home. And certainly, make sure you allow them some extra curricular activities, especially in the summertime, where they can be with other kids who are like them, other computer programmers, other robotic engineers, other musicians. Find those kinds of experiences for the kids and you know you're doing your job as a parent. And then join a support group so that you have someone to support you. Make sure that you take care of yourself, so that dealing with the ups and downs of every day can become much more manageable.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:26:21] Susan, thank you so much for your time and perspective today.

Susan Baum: [00:26:25] It was great being here.

Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:26:33] Dr. Baum's analogy of the two sides of twice-exceptional people, the yellow representing the gifts, the blue representing the challenges, and those two sides combining to create something new, green, gives an understanding of how inextricably intertwined those abilities and difficulties are for our twice-exceptional learners.

So take the analogy one step further. Think about the many shades of green each 2e learner could be... from shamrock, to key-lime, to green tea. The mix of strengths and struggles is unique for each person. How do we, parents and educators, empower our 2e students to embrace both sides of themselves? How can we assure them that there is value to the things that don't come easily? The space in the middle, the green, is what gives them a unique and valuable view of the world. And we can't let that go unnoticed.

I'm Emily Kircher-Morris, I'll see you next time on Mind Matters.

Dave Morris: [00:28:00] Our thanks again to Susan Baum, who is truly one of the pioneers in the area of twice-exceptionality. You can find out more about susan at www.Bridges.edu. Also thanks to our contributors, whether it be through Patreon or PayPal. You can be part of this podcast's success as well by going to www.MindMattersPodcast.com and clicking on 'support.' For Emily Kircher-Morris, I'm Dave Morris, executive producer, asking you to spread the word about Mind Matters, and to stay safe, stay healthy, and we'll see you next time.

Mind Matters is a production of Morris Creative Services.