Wednesday Volume 498 4 November 2009 No. 136

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 4 November 2009

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Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/Co-op): House of Commons As well as a statement when the Saville report is published, will there be a full debate in this Chamber in Government Wednesday 4 November 2009 time on the report? Mr. Woodward: The report has taken more than The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock 10 years to produce, and it has cost nearly £200 million, half of which has been spent on legal aid. The report PRAYERS has been crucial to the peace process, and we will study its findings carefully. I say that because I think that the House will want a debate on it, and the Government [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] would want to grant it a debate on the report and its findings.

Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): May I thank Oral Answers to Questions the Secretary of State for agreeing to meet a deputation of soldiers? That was very much appreciated. Will he express to Lord Saville our anger at the expense that he NORTHERN IRELAND has run up, and at the ultimate discourtesy to this House and to the people involved that he has not yet published the report? Please will he express our anger at The Secretary of State was asked— his incompetence? Saville Inquiry Mr. Woodward: The hon. Gentleman will know the 1. Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) concern that I have, for both the families and the (Con): On what date he expects the Saville inquiry to soldiers who are part of the report. I am very concerned report. [296666] about the delay, and I very much hope that Lord Saville not only takes my representations seriously but finds The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Shaun the opportunity to read the Hansard of today’s questions, Woodward): Lord Saville recently informed me that he because it is extremely important that he understand does not expect to deliver his report until the week the genuine concern across the whole House. beginning 22 March next year. Paramilitary Activities Mr. Goodwill: That date is three days before one of the possible dates for a general election. Does the Secretary of State agree that it would be impossible to 2. David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): What recent publish the report during the final stages of a general assessment he has made of the extent of activities of election campaign? Is there anything that he can do to dissident paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. [296667] bring forward the publication of that already overdue report? 7. James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend, East) (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the level Mr. Woodward: The House will understand that it is of activity of dissident republicans in Northern not for me to speculate on dates of general elections. I Ireland; and if he will make a statement. [296673] can, however, tell the House that I have again met the families and the soldiers, and I am grateful to hon. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Shaun Members for facilitating those meetings. The families Woodward): I have today placed in the Library a copy of are deeply disappointed by yet another delay; it is the Independent Monitoring Commission’s 22nd report agonising for them. The same is true for the soldiers and on the activities of paramilitary groups, in which the their families. This delay is causing very real distress, IMC states: and it is clearly compounding an already very anxious “Dissident republican activity since the early summer of 2008 situation. had been consistently more serious than at any time since we had started to report in April 2004.” Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Given that the publication date that Lord Saville has indicated is a possible, if not a likely, date for a general David Tredinnick: Speaking as a former Grenadier election announcement, is he aware of the toxicity and Guard who served in Northern Ireland, may I ask the controversy that will undoubtedly follow his report in Secretary of State to express his condolences to the that context? families of the three Guardsmen and two military policemen killed yesterday in Helmand province? Does the Secretary Mr. Woodward: I had the opportunity to meet the of State recognise the contribution to the peace process hon. Gentleman in his constituency only a week ago, made by the regiment of the Grenadiers in Northern when I was also meeting the families. I am particularly Ireland, including through the building of the peace concerned about the delay. With great respect to my line? Finally, will he tell the House whether the upsurge right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, the date of a in violence is due to new terrorist activity, or to the general election is a matter for him. However, there Provisional IRA under another name? should be no delay in publishing this report. I have urged Lord Saville, and made every effort available, to Mr. Speaker: I heard at least three questions there, ensure that we publish it as quickly as possible. but one answer from the Secretary of State will suffice. 841 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 842

Mr. Woodward: In answering the hon. Gentleman’s Mr. Woodward: My right hon. Friend is absolutely third question, may I associate myself firmly with the right. It might be worth drawing the attention of the remarks made in his two previous ones? In response to House to one of the remarks in the IMC’s report today, his third question, I urge him to read the IMC report, which is that the activities of these dissidents which makes it clear that such activity cannot be attributed “represent a challenging of the peace process by groups always to the organised activities of those who may have violently opposed to it”, represented paramilitary activity in the past. The report but critically at the moment is extremely clear in laying the blame where it appropriately “not an unravelling of that process.” lies, particularly with the so-called RIRA and CIRA—Real IRA and Continuity IRA. Those groups are extremely We have a duty to ensure that that peace process does dangerous, and a political solution is pressed as a not unravel. matter of urgency. Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East) (DUP): Will the James Duddridge: Does the Secretary of State agree Secretary of State join me in condemning the attack by that the tragic death of Constable Stephen Carroll, dissidents at the home of a police officer under a car allegedly by a 17-year-old, means that we should look that was driven off by his partner, although fortuitously carefully again at community policing and at how it no lives were lost as a result? Will he underline the need helps to stop young people getting involved with proscribed for police officers and their families to be particularly organisations? vigilant at this time, as even if they consider themselves to be living in safe areas, they need to remain alert? Will Mr. Woodward: The hon. Gentleman will understand he indicate what steps he intends to take to meet the why I may not wish to speak about the particular challenge set by the dissident republicans from their individuals who have been charged with the murder of increase in activity over the past number of months? Constable Carroll, but I will say that the IMC report—I urge all hon. Members to read it—is very clear about Mr. Woodward: I very much join the right hon. where some of the recruitment, particularly of young Gentleman in those remarks and I thank him for the males, is coming from and why it is happening. Within role that he is playing in trying to drive forward progress the report, there is also a proposal for a political on completion of devolution. I would none the less intervention, which the IMC believes would be potent remind him that paragraph 5.1, to which my right hon. in having an effect on these people. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Does the Secretary of Lesmahagow (Mr. Ingram) referred, is very clear in State acknowledge that the logic of the IMC today is saying that consistent with advice that the Social and Democratic “the early devolution of policing and justice powers to Labour party has been giving for over two years about the…Assembly…could provide a potent intervention… It would the importance of devolving justice and policing as a be because policing and justice would no longer be a point of way of disarming the dissident groups? Does he also contention across the political divide; rather, it would be a platform for co-operation against those trying to undermine the peace acknowledge that we are concerned that the dissidents process.” could be assisted by some of the consequences of the Ashdown review? Given the seriousness of the situation, Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): why has only the leader of the Alliance party been given Will the Secretary of State pass on the congratulations confidential security briefings and why is the Secretary of this House to the Police Service of Northern Ireland of State asking the Alliance leader to go quiet on the on the skill and vigilance that enabled it to defuse a shared future in the countdown to the devolution of massive bomb on the border? That occurred since the justice and policing? House last had Northern Ireland questions. Mr. Woodward: You might me rebuke me, Mr. Speaker, if I chose to answer all of those questions. I will none Mr. Woodward: I am happy to pass on those remarks the less try to find an envelope that might succeed in to the PSNI. I am sure that the House would warmly answering the purport of the question. The report is welcome the new Chief Constable, Matt Baggott, who very clear about the problem that we are facing in has taken over control of the PSNI. The PSNI does an Northern Ireland today as a result of criminals calling extremely brave job, as this report demonstrates, in themselves dissidents. It is very clear that there is a extremely difficult and challenging circumstances. political solution and the report advocates that early devolution of policing and justice powers to the Northern Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): Ireland Assembly could provide a potent intervention. I May I associate myself with the remarks of the Secretary urge that intervention on all those elected in Northern of State and the IMC report—that the devolution of Ireland, regardless of party. criminal justice would indeed be “a potent intervention” that politicians could effect in dealing with dissident Mr. Adam Ingram (East Kilbride, Strathaven and republican groups? Does he agree with me and those Lesmahagow) (Lab): I welcome the views of the IMC with whom I am associated in Northern Ireland that, in and its conclusion that the time is right for the transfer the long term, these groups will be countered only if we of policing and justice powers to the devolved Assembly. are able to pursue an agenda of shared futures? I ask my right hon. Friend to reiterate in very strong terms the view of the IMC that the transference of Mr. Woodward: The hon. Gentleman is right to draw those powers would, in its words, attention to the importance of the shared future. There “be a platform for co-operation against those trying to undermine has been a lot of discussion about community confidence the peace process.” being built before devolution can take place. The report That is the best signal to send to the dissidents. puts clearly before the House and the public of Northern 843 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 844

Ireland that the real challenge to community confidence Loyalist Paramilitaries is the threat posed by dissidents. We have a choice, and we can act: early devolution would be a potent intervention, 3. Mr. Shailesh Vara (North-West Cambridgeshire) and I hope we will complete it soon. (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the extent of the activities of loyalist paramilitary Mr. Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): Further organisations in Northern Ireland. [296668] to the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (David Tredinnick), with Remembrance day The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul approaching we should remember all those who were Goggins): Although I welcome the positive leadership killed or injured serving the security forces, protecting that has delivered major progress on decommissioning, our democracy and safeguarding our public. The latest some individual members of loyalist paramilitary IMC report published this morning contains some organisations remain involved in criminality and encouraging news, but also other deeply worrying punishment attacks. information. The report states: “The overall level of dissident activity was markedly higher Mr. Vara: I am grateful to the Minister for those than we have seen since we first met in late 2003. The seriousness, comments. However, when does he believe that the range and tempo of their activities all changed for the worse in loyalist paramilitaries will disband their command these six months.” structures, and what is he doing to try to ensure that The Secretary of State has had time to analyse the that happens? report. What are his conclusions, and what does he intend to do? Paul Goggins: It is important that those organisations take down their command structures and desist from Mr. Woodward: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, criminality, and that the Ulster Defence Association in and I would like to mark our thanks to the Opposition particular moves to complete the decommissioning process parties who have helped in supporting the financial it has begun—certainly no later than February next package put forward by my right hon. Friend the Prime year, when the powers run out. I am particularly concerned Minister to enable early devolution to take place. The about the increase, reported today by the IMC, in the hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the part of number of paramilitary-style attacks in loyalist areas the report relating to the security issue, which goes on this year: already more than double the number last to say that the challenges year. These people must stop taking the law into their “pose a major challenge to the law enforcement and other agencies own hands, and let the police and the courts do their on both sides of the border. Had it not been for the work of all job. these agencies North and South, more lives would have been lost.” Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down) (SDLP): Will the The report identifies a major challenge, and I hope that Minister confirm that it is the Government’s urgent all parties in Northern Ireland rise to it. intent not only that there will be full and immediate decommissioning by loyalist paramilitaries, but that Mr. Paterson: On the conclusion that the report PSNI and the Serious Organised Crime Agency will endorses the devolution of policing, the Opposition pursue their criminally acquired assets and those of have always taken a responsible approach. We support other paramilitaries past and present? the devolution of policing and justice, and we supported the Bill in March. My right hon. Friend the Leader of Paul Goggins: It is essential that decommissioning be the Opposition has confirmed our long-term commitment completed by February next year, as the special to the significant financial package proposed by the arrangements will not be extended. My hon. Friend is Government. We have always made clear that devolution also right that those who, as part of paramilitary gangs should happen only when all parts of the community or other groups, have acquired criminal assets, often are supportive— running into millions of pounds, should have them taken back off them. I reassure him that SOCA, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the PSNI will Mr. Speaker: Order. I am increasingly unhappy about pursue those people relentlessly and bring those assets the length of the preamble before we reach the question. back into the public domain. Can we please now have a question? I want to make progress. Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): When the Government extended the arms amnesty until 2010 Mr. Paterson: Does the Secretary of State agree that a few months ago we supported the Government, very it is down to all four parties in the coalition on the reluctantly. Will the Minister confirm yet again that he Executive to work together to finalise the details and will not seek to introduce primary legislation to extend the timing? the amnesty? We certainly could not support any further extension, because after that date we shall see these Mr. Woodward: The hon. Gentleman is right: it is up people as nothing more than criminals. to the four parties. But let us be clear: as the report highlights, this is perhaps a moment when whatever Paul Goggins: Let me once again express my appreciation individual issues might still prevent parties from moving for the Opposition parties’ support for our approach to forward, they should now set aside their differences, the decommissioning amnesty order. I believe that an find the points of common unity and purpose, and unequivocal message went out from the House from all ensure that the dissidents do not become a major threat parties that there would be no tolerance of people who to people in Northern Ireland. hold back on decommissioning, and no extension of 845 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 846 the amnesty powers beyond February next year. Next Loyalist Decommissioning February, the powers will run out for good. Those who still hold on to weapons must decommission them, and 5. Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): decommission them now. What recent progress has been made on loyalist decommissioning; and if he will make a statement. Equality Commission [296670] The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Shaun 4. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What discussions he Woodward): The House will note the report from has had with the Northern Ireland Executive on the Independent International Commission on proposals for the appointment of new commissioners Decommissioning, which was placed in the Library last to the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland. month and which records very significant acts of [296669] decommissioning by loyalist groups. The House will also know from my right hon. Friend the Minister of The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul State that the decommissioning order will end unequivocally Goggins): The Secretary of State appointed four new on 9 February next year. equality commissioners in September this year, following a fair and open competition. Under the Northern Ireland Mr. Clifton-Brown: The Secretary of State has made Act 1998, responsibility for making such appointments clear that the amnesty will end in February. That being lies solely with the Secretary of State. He wrote to the so, what more can he do to encourage loyalist paramilitaries First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to notify to participate in the decommissioning process so that it them of the launch of the competition, and he informed can be completed once and for all? Will he also make them when the appointments were made. clear that those who break the law can expect the full rigour of the law to come down upon them, and that Philip Davies: Will the Minister warn the new they will face due process? commissioners about the unease that is felt about the commission, particularly among many Unionists, and Mr. Woodward: The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s will he ensure that it does not add to the compensation second question is yes. As for his first question, we are culture in Northern Ireland or fuel the already crippling making that requirement clear. That is why we are, I burden of political correctness there? believe, making substantial progress on decommissioning, although we expect more. [Interruption.] Paul Goggins: How did I guess that the phrase “political correctness” might just creep into the hon. Gentleman’s Mr. Speaker: Order. There are still far too many supplementary question? private conversations taking place in the Chamber. It is very unfair on the Member asking the question, and on The hon. Gentleman and I have discussed this issue the Minister answering it. on a number of occasions, including occasions on which I have been at the Dispatch Box, and I think it fair to Mrs. Iris Robinson (Strangford) (DUP): My party say that we do not agree on it. This is not about political welcomes the progress made towards total decommissioning correctness; it is about putting fairness, justice and by loyalist paramilitaries. When that process has been equality at the heart of the peace process in Northern completed, will the Secretary of State publish an inventory Ireland. That is what the Good Friday agreement did of the weapons decommissioned by both the IRA and when it established the Equality Commission. The hon. the loyalist paramilitaries? Gentleman should not underestimate the difference that the commission has made, and the distance that it has Mr. Woodward: As the hon. Lady knows, as part of taken us in terms of the progress made in Northern the process there will at the end of it be a full statement Ireland. by the IICD. Historical Inquiries Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): Surely it is difficult for the Equality Commission to 6. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): demonstrate fairness, and to be a paragon of fairness, What assessment he has made of the effect of when the composition of its own staff is so out of kilter the report of the Consultative Group on the Past on with the community in Northern Ireland. There is a the operation of the Historical Enquiries Team of the serious under-representation of Protestants. How can Police Service of Northern Ireland; and if he will make the commission go to local councils and other public a statement. [296672] bodies and ask for fairness and equality when it has itself failed to practise those virtues? The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul Goggins): The Government have recently concluded a Paul Goggins: The right hon. Gentleman mentioned consultation on all the recommendations made by the the staff, but the commissioners themselves reflect Consultative Group on the Past and are currently communities across Northern Ireland. In appointing considering the responses. Meanwhile, the Historical commissioners, the Secretary of State must have due Enquiries Team is continuing to carry out its important regard to their community background, although there work with great sensitivity and professionalism. is of course an open competition. The appointments to which I referred in my first answer were made in a fair David Taylor: The primary task of a police unit to and open way, and the Equality Commission plays a pursue criminal justice seems inimical to the mandate of very important role in the peace process in Northern the HET to resolve unanswered questions, which would Ireland. surely be better handled by a legacy commission. Does 847 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 848 the Minister believe that recent new money for the Ireland, who recently made a statement to the Assembly Province will be adequate to finance the HET and that that plans to reduce the number of district councils it will not become bogged down in an expensive legal from 26 to 11 are on track and that the new structures morass of Savillian proportions? will be in place by May 2011.

Paul Goggins: I reassure my hon. Friend first that the Angela Watkinson: I thank the Minister for that PSNI does a fine job in pursuing criminals and keeping answer. As he will know, the new local councils are not Northern Ireland and its people safe. We have made no yet in place, and I am grateful to him for confirming decisions yet in relation to the recommendation by the that the date of the local elections in Northern Ireland Consultative Group on the Past on a legacy commission, is May next year. but I also reassure my hon. Friend that the HET is a Paul Goggins: The hon. Lady will know that we very cost-effective way of dealing with the issue of delayed the elections that would have taken place this unresolved murders. Substantial resources will be made year to 2011. That is an absolutely final date so far as available to the Northern Ireland Executive if policing my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are and justice powers are devolved, but how that money is concerned, and I am pleased that the Minister of spent will, of course, be for the Justice Minister and Environment has committed to put the necessary legislation Executive to determine. in place so that that can happen. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I have already Mr. Nigel Dodds (Belfast, North) (DUP): On an issue written to the Minister about the money being spent by that is the Minister’s responsibility, can he tell us whether the HET and the alleged inefficiencies in how it is being he will bring forward legislation to allow councillors in spent. What steps is he taking to ensure that the tens of the current set-up to retire without the need for costly millions of pounds currently being spent by the HET unwanted by-elections as we come to the fag end of the are spent in an effective and efficient manner? current councils leading up to 2011? Paul Goggins: I believe that that money is spent in an Paul Goggins: The hon. Gentleman makes an important effective and efficient manner, and, indeed, the Committee point; we do not want a succession of by-elections of Ministers of the Council of Europe has paid great between April next year and May 2011. I recently tribute to the HET for being both effective and independent. published a consultation document on a number of Many hundreds of cases that have been opened and options to make sure that we deal with the issue and do dealt with by the HET have been resolved, so I do not not have all those by-elections to which he referred. accept the hon. Gentleman’s assertion that it is inefficient Devolution in any way; it is doing a very important job very well. 9. Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): What Dr. Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast, South) (SDLP): recent assessment he has made of the progress of Does the Secretary of State accept that there is still devolution of responsibility for criminal justice and much work to be done before the needs of many of the policing to the Northern Ireland Assembly; and if he innocent victims are met? A scurrilous rumour is going will make a statement. [296675] around that he intends to bin the report of the Consultative Group on the Past. Does he have any plans for making The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Shaun progress? Woodward): It is for the parties in Northern Ireland to decide when to request transfer. My right hon. Friend Paul Goggins: There is certainly absolutely no intention the Prime Minister has made a settlement of upwards whatever to bin—as the hon. Gentleman puts it—the of £800 million available to the parties if they reach work of the Consultative Group on the Past. The work agreement. it has done has been very important. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State opened up a further Mr. Brazier: Is the Secretary of State satisfied that in consultation on its recommendations. That consultation no circumstances will intelligence-gathering be compromised is now completed. [Interruption.] We are considering under any possible devolution? the outcome of the 230 representations that were made as part of that consultation, and we will publish a Mr. Woodward: Yes. summary of those responses in due course. [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that Members will have PRIME MINISTER the courtesy to listen to the questions and then to the answers. The Prime Minister was asked— Engagements Local Government Reorganisation Q1. [297503] Mr. Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): If he 8. Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): What will list his official engagements for Wednesday progress has been made on reorganisation of local 4 November. government in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement. [296674] The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): Before listing my engagements, I am sure that the whole House will The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul wish to join me in sending our condolences to the Goggins): The reorganisation programme is the families and friends of the five soldiers who died in responsibility of the Minister of Environment in Northern Afghanistan yesterday—three soldiers from the Grenadier 849 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 850

Guards and two soldiers from the Royal Military Police. initial comments, that evidence is now being assembled The death of five brave soldiers in a single incident is a on what happened in this terrible incident and that terrible and tragic loss, and I want to pay tribute, as the security will be stepped up, where that is necessary, but whole House will, to their professionalism, and to their we cannot desist from the practice that is absolutely courage and service. Our thoughts must also be with the essential for the future of Afghanistan and the security five additional members of our armed forces who were of our country: training and mentoring the Afghan seriously injured in the same incident yesterday. Evidence forces. That means that our troops will be working with is now being assembled, but it appears that they were the Afghan police and the Afghan army. Of course, we targeted because they were engaged in what our enemies need to take all the necessary security measures, but it is fear most—they were mentoring and strengthening Afghan an essential element of the whole coalition strategy that forces to make Afghanistan more secure. While we will we train up the Afghan forces so that they themselves step up and strengthen our security wherever we can, are able to take over the security of their country, and we will not stop doing what the Afghan Taliban fear that we will continue to do. It is in line with the most. The sacrifice of our military is great and our McChrystal report, and it is in line with the statements resolve must match it. that have been made by President Obama, with NATO This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues statements of the past few days and with what we have and others, and, in addition to my duties in the House, I set out as our strategy for the future. So, yes, we will shall have further such meetings today. step up security, but we must not allow ourselves to give up what the Afghan Taliban fear most: that we will have Mr. Reed: I am sure that everyone in this House will a strong Afghan security force that is Afghan-based and associate themselves with the comments made by my is able to face them. right hon. Friend, for those who have fallen in the line Mr. Cameron: Clearly, as the Prime Minister says, the of duty in Afghanistan have done so not only on our training and mentoring is absolutely essential. I have behalf, but on behalf of the people of Afghanistan. seen it in Afghanistan for myself and the work that is Many of my constituents have benefited from the being done is incredibly impressive, but I think that the Prime Minister’s abolition of prescription charges for public will be concerned knowing as they do that British cancer patients and many more still welcome his cast-iron soldiers, including military police, are, even as we speak, guarantee to introduce one-week screening for suspected living and working side by side with the Afghan national cancer patients, but we need to do more. What more will police across Helmand. They will want to know what this Government do to ensure that we end the postcode immediate steps are being taken to ensure that we are lottery and to ensure that people, whatever their wealth safeguarding our forces after what happened yesterday. and wherever they live, get the cancer medicines they deserve and need? The Prime Minister: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, we have been working very closely with the The Prime Minister: We will not only make promises Afghan army and the Afghan police for a number of to improve cancer care in the national health service, we years. We are stepping up the closeness of our operations. will deliver on these promises. We will not only have a I myself visited a joint Afghan-British operation where two-week maximum before people can see a consultant, both military police and the Army from Britain were we will move to a one-week maximum before people working with Afghan soldiers and police forces. Obviously can actually have the diagnostic tests they need. However, we will review the security arrangements for this, but I I think that people should be warned about the national repeat that it is an essential element of our strategy that health service, because the shadow Health Secretary we are not seen as an occupying army but that we work said yesterday— with the Afghan army and are seen to be training the Afghan forces so that they can take over responsibility for the country. Although this has been a terrible and Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not think that we need to go tragic incident, all our commanders on the ground will into that today, Prime Minister. I call Mr. David Cameron. want to maintain the strategy, which is to work with the Afghan forces so that one day they can take responsibility Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): Thank you, for the security of their country. Mr. Speaker. May I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to the five brave servicemen who lost their lives, Mr. Cameron: Everyone will agree with what the three of whom were from the Grenadier Guards and Prime Minister said about working with the police, but two of whom were from the Royal Military Police? We clearly the attack raises questions about the infiltration must honour their memories, we must care for their of the Afghan police by criminals, drug dealers and families and we must never forget their service. Our militants. In evidence to the Foreign Affairs Committee, thoughts and prayers, as the Prime Minister rightly the Afghan police force was described as said, should be with those who, I understand, were “one of the most dysfunctional institutions in the country”, badly wounded in what was clearly an horrific incident. with reports that the police were actively involved in Given that it apparently included an Afghan police criminal activities, including the drugs trade. We all officer, it does raise some very worrying questions. Can agree on a more focused and targeted mission in the Prime Minister tell us what inquiries will be made Afghanistan, and at the heart of that mission, as the and when we can expect to know more about what Prime Minister has just said, is training Afghans to take happened in this very disturbing incident? more responsibility for their security. Given that, what more can he say about the efforts to clean up an The Prime Minister: I am grateful for the right hon. organisation—the Afghan national police—that is essential Gentleman’s condolences to all those who are affected to the success of our strategy but still seems to be going by this terrible and tragic incident. I did say, in my so wrong? 851 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 852

The Prime Minister: I have to say to the right hon. and the House of Commons, but is it not important Gentleman that while we are assembling evidence, the that today we accept in full Sir Christopher Kelly’s Taliban have claimed responsibility for this incident. It report? Does the Prime Minister agree that, in accepting might be that the Taliban have used an Afghan police the report, it is important that we say that, from now member or have infiltrated the Afghan police force, and and into the future, Members of Parliament should not that is what we have to look at. It is the Taliban who vote on our pay, expenses, pensions, terms of service, have claimed responsibility for this incident. There are resettlement or expenses packages? Is not that an essential about 98,000 police in Afghanistan, many of whom part of restoring faith in Parliament and politics—and have been moved from one part of Afghanistan to in this House of Commons, which all of us care about? another. There is an issue about their training, which we are addressing with a European effort to ensure that the The Prime Minister: People want to know that the police are properly trained. We will have to increase the system will be different in future. It will be open, transparent number of police, but it is clear that we will have to and fair. It will not be managed by MPs themselves but increase the quality of police, too. I would not want to by an independent body that will take responsibility for draw conclusions about all the Afghan police from one that. That is why it is right to refer the Kelly report for single incident, and what we know is that the Taliban action and implementation not by ourselves but by the have claimed responsibility for this. Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. That is the recommendation of the Kelly report, and that is Mr. Cameron: Clearly what the Prime Minister says is what we should do. The vast majority of MPs are trying right, although he has in the past said that the Afghan to do a decent job on behalf of their whole communities. police are not seen as a fair part of the Afghan state and At the same time, we must make sure that the public so progress needs to be made. Our armed forces will trust in the institution of Parliament is restored. That is also need to have every confidence that stronger economic why we should accept the Kelly recommendations and development and political effort will go in behind them. make sure that they are implemented as quickly as Does the Prime Minister agree that it is perhaps time, possible. once again, to return to the idea of a single, strong co-ordinating figure—not just from the United Nations Mr. David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside) (Lab): Will but someone who works across the coalition, including the Prime Minister tell the House what he thinks of the with the Afghan Government and NATO—to deliver credibility of a party leader who has spent so much time this effort more effectively than anyone has done so far? and energy attacking him over the Lisbon treaty, only to Is it his understanding that that is being considered in reveal now that his cast-iron guarantee has turned out Washington and should be part of the revised strategy to be made of plywood? that we hope that President Obama and his team will announce shortly? The Prime Minister rose— The Prime Minister: Yes, we have been discussing Mr. Speaker: Order. May I ask the Prime Minister to that, and the possibility that we could have a co-ordinator focus his response on the policy of the Government who works more closely with the Afghan Government rather than that of the Opposition? and with the allied forces. I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman that the first thing that we have to do is to The Prime Minister: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The Government ensure that this new Government, led by President will work in concert with the other 26 countries of the Karzai, will adopt a set of policies that will deal with European Union. We will work with them on the same the problems that have worried not just the international policies to bring about economic recovery and to bring community but people in Afghanistan. The first is that down unemployment in our country, and we will work he should deal with corruption, and, whether he appoints for greater international co-ordination. We will not an anti-corruption commission or commissioners, he make iron-cast guarantees that are broken—[Interruption.] will have to do far more than has been done in recent years. He will have to deal with the problem of the Mr. Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): Mr. Speaker— appointment of district and provincial governors as [Interruption.] well as appointments at the centre. He will have to show that his new Cabinet is free of the stains of corruption. Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman has a He has promised to do that and we will be looking for it right to be heard, and I want to hear him. in his inauguration address and in the measures that he wants to bring forward. The next, as the right hon. Mr. Clegg: May I first say that, after a shameful year Gentleman rightly says, is to ensure economic and for this Parliament, I agree that Sir Christopher Kelly’s social improvement for the Afghan people, and that will report finally gives us the opportunity to start restoring need the co-ordination of allied efforts and those of the people’s trust in the work of MPs here? That is why we Afghan Government. Our efforts to move people from must implement the report in full, without any further heroin to wheat production in Helmand have been delay. successful, but the final element for the Afghan Government I want to add my expressions of sympathy and is the training of Afghan forces. The only way that we condolence to the families and friends of the three can look to a future where the numbers of our forces soldiers from the Grenadier Guards and the two from can come down while we still have security in Afghanistan the Royal Military Police who tragically lost their lives is for an Afghan army, in particular, to be ready to take yesterday afternoon, and of the five who were seriously on the responsibility. injured. People will be shocked to the core by the fact Mr. Cameron: A day when we hear the news of such that they have been working selflessly for the Afghan an appalling incident in Afghanistan is not one for people and were killed by someone whom they thought obsessing about the internal workings of Parliament that they could trust. 853 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 854

The truth is that without a legitimate and inclusive Q2. [297504] Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) Government in Kabul and a new coherent international (LD): The Government have today slashed the money plan for Afghanistan, it will be increasingly difficult for available to pay for the freedom pass in London. What our brave soldiers to do the job there that we are asking is the Prime Minister’s estimate of the council tax them to do. In the Prime Minister’s conversations with increase that will be needed to pay for this financial President Karzai, how much time is the right hon. shortfall? Gentleman giving him to clean up his Government? What measures will he take if President Karzai fails The Prime Minister: No Government have done more to act? to provide help for transport, both in London and in the rest of the country. The hon. Gentleman should The Prime Minister: President Karzai said yesterday know that the national concessionary pensioner fare at his press conference that he was going to operate a that we introduced is not just for London, but for the policy in which there would be a clean-up of politics in whole country. The Government have supported public Afghanistan. We will now have to test him by his words. transport, whether it be by rail or by road, and done I think that the first thing that he can do, in his more than any other Government for 50 years. inauguration address, is to signal the changes that he will make in the way that he runs central Government, Q3. [297505] Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) appoints governors, and deals with the problems with (Lab): Why have countries like ours with good relations corruption—especially corruption relating to heroin and with Israel allowed the blockade on Gaza to continue drugs. It is for President Karzai to show the international for so long? It is denying Gazans the essentials for life, community that his Government can have credibility including reconstruction materials, and denying them a because of the actions that he is prepared to take. good living throughout this very cold winter.

Mr. Clegg: I am grateful for those words, but the The Prime Minister: I talked to Prime Minister Prime Minister needs to be more precise. May I ask him Netanyahu a few days ago and I made it clear that not again—[Interruption.] He needs to acknowledge first only the policy of Britain but the will of the international that our mission in Afghanistan is in trouble because we community is to make sure that supplies can enter Gaza do not have a legitimate Government in Kabul, and we so that the Palestinian people there can be sure that they do not have a coherent international plan for Afghanistan. will have a winter in which shortages do not exist. That So I ask him again what exactly he will do if the is the will of the international community, it is what we legitimate and inclusive Government whom we so are urging Israel to do, and while I believe that the desperately need in Kabul do not emerge? Israelis are right to be worried about security and about terrorism, there is also a humanitarian duty to make The Prime Minister: I have already made it clear that sure that the people of Gaza are fed. the additional troops that we are prepared to make available to Afghanistan are conditional on three things. Q4. [297506] Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): The first is that the Afghan Government can show that Island prisoners must be guarded when they need they are willing to take the action necessary to gain the health care outside prison. By the end of this year, the trust of the people of the country and for the security of local health budget will have been exceeded by more the people of the country. The second thing is that the than £1 million. That could pay for an extra 15 nurses. Americans and our coalition partners are prepared to Will the Prime Minister ensure that this inequity is engage in burden-sharing. The third thing is that President corrected urgently? Karzai and his Government are prepared to make available Afghan forces to Helmand so that we can train Afghan The Prime Minister: I understand the hon. Gentleman forces for the future. We have made it very clear what asking for more resources for the health service in his our conditions are for the future. I hope the right hon. area, but we are spending more on the national health Gentleman will agree that these are necessary conditions. service than ever before. Where issues arise from the Of course, they include the improvement in governance, treatment of prisoners, we will deal with them. both local and national, in Afghanistan. Q5. [297507] Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): I pay The Prime Minister, when he was Chancellor of the tribute to the bravery of our soldiers. Is not the country Exchequer, brought in the family tax credit, the entitled to know how long British military personnel working tax credit and pensioner tax credit. Can he will be in Afghanistan? Can this war be won? give me, in the popular phrase, a cast-iron guarantee that this benefit will not be cut or means-tested, The Prime Minister: I have said before that as we whereas the Conservatives would pull it to shreds? train Afghan security forces to get them to take over the task and the responsibilities of Afghanistan—I am The Prime Minister: We made promises that we would saying what President Obama and the other leaders create a tax credit, and we have delivered on that have said—we will be able gradually to bring our forces promise. When we have made a commitment, we have home. The measure of success in Afghanistan will be actually done what we have said we will do; and, where that British forces can come home because Afghan we have made promises, we will continue to deliver on forces are able to deal with the security problems of the them, unlike some other people. country themselves. That is what our strategy is about—to build up the Afghan army and security forces, to build Q6. [297508] Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) up economic prosperity for the Afghan people, and to (LD): Is the Prime Minister aware that several police make sure that the structures of local as well as national authorities, including Northumbria, are using Home Government reflect the will of the people. Office guidance as a basis for cutting the pensions of 855 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 856 police officers who have been forced to retire when they Q9. [297511] David T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): have been seriously injured on duty? On the principle Does the Prime Minister agree that the Ministry of that we should stand by those who risk their lives and Defence should publish regular figures showing the face serious injury protecting us, whether in the armed number of soldiers who have lost limbs or suffered forces or in the police, will he take a personal interest in other life-changing injuries in Afghanistan? If he does, the matter and investigate it? will he let me have those figures by the end of the week?

The Prime Minister: I shall obviously look at the The Prime Minister: We give as much information as matter. When policemen or women retire, they receive possible on what is happening in Afghanistan. We have their pension. I see no reason why their pension entitlement 9,000 troops there, and we report to the House whenever should be broken, if it is, indeed, an entitlement, and I there have been fatalities. I have reported today also shall look at what the right hon. Gentleman says. that five soldiers have been seriously injured. Many of them will end up at Selly Oak hospital in Birmingham Q7. [297509] Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South- for the best treatment that they could receive, and of West) (Lab): Last Friday, the Youth Parliament met to course I am happy to give as much information as debate in this Chamber, and the MYP for Milton possible, consistent with what the Chief of the Defence Keynes, Sean Barnes, spoke strongly in favour of votes Staff advises. at 16, helping to persuade the Youth Parliament to Q10. [297512] Liz Blackman (Erewash) (Lab): make the issue its top campaigning priority. Will the Derbyshire firm Baltex, which is based in my Prime Minister respond to that clearly expressed constituency, makes technical textiles and has twice demand by the democratically elected Youth received the Queen’s award for industry. Among its Parliament and make sure that his Government work, it reinforces hoses that go into new cars. The implement a reduction in voting age and an extension company tells me that sales of that particular product of full democratic rights to 16-year-olds? line have soared since the inception of the scrappage The Prime Minister: I think that bringing the Youth scheme. What assessment has my right hon. Friend Parliament to this House was a tremendous innovation, made of the scrappage scheme in terms of jobs and and we should be very proud of it. While I do not sales UK-wide? always agree with your rulings, Mr. Speaker, your innovation The Prime Minister: The car scrappage scheme, which in doing that was very important. I personally favour was dismissed by so many people, has been a great giving young people the vote at 16. It is a matter on success. So, too, has the help that we are giving to small which we should consult widely with the public, and businesses. Now 200,000 or more small businesses have then we should make a decision. received cash-flow help from the Treasury. We have taken action to help businesses to keep on employees Q8. [297510] Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Colchester and to train employees during this difficult recession. is the fastest growing borough in the country. Despite None of that would have been possible without the that, Tory-controlled Essex county council plans to fiscal support that we were prepared to give; that is the shut two of the town’s seven secondary schools. It is difference between ourselves and the Conservative now known that the council massaged the figures on Opposition. projected pupil numbers. Does the Prime Minister therefore agree that the reorganisation proposals Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): After 14 service should be investigated by the Office of the Schools personnel died aboard Nimrod XV230, the Ministry of Adjudicator, particularly as Essex county council gave Defence accepted responsibility and said that compensation false information to the Department for Children, would be “expedited”. Three years on, compensation Schools and Families? has not been resolved. Do not these service families deserve better? The Prime Minister: I shall look at the matter. Was it not the Leader of the Opposition who said, “If you The Prime Minister: We have just had the final report. want to know what a Conservative Government will The Government, and all those responsible for the look like, look at the Tory councils”? The Tory council mistakes that were made in relation to Nimrod, have in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency proves the point. apologised. I shall look exactly at the point that the hon. Gentleman has raised. The report has now finalised Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): The Labour the issues surrounding Nimrod, and I will write to him. Government have made great strides in getting and Q11. [297513] Stephen Pound (Ealing, North) (Lab): keeping disabled people in work. What is my right hon. The hon. and gallant Member for Newark (Patrick Friend’s reaction to the news that the Glencraft factory Mercer) and I may form an unlikely combination, but in my constituency could be forced out of business by we are as one in endorsing the calls made by the the lack of support from the Scottish National party-Liberal Greenford branch of the Royal British Legion for council? If the factory closes, more than 30 disabled reserved seats at Prime Minister’s Question Time for people in Aberdeen will lose their jobs. members of the armed forces. Would the Prime Minister agree to make representations to the Serjeant The Prime Minister: When there was a Labour council, at Arms in order that we can achieve this? Glencraft got a huge amount of support from it. I have heard that the grants are being cut by the SNP-Liberal The Prime Minister: We do want to recognise the administration in the area. We will look at what we can commitment of our armed forces. Special arrangements do, but it is clearly important in a recession to help are made in a number of different parts of our society. those people who are most in need of support, and that This is an interesting proposal that has been made on includes the disabled members of our community. an all-party basis, and I am sure that the Serjeant at 857 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 858

Arms and the Speaker will want to look at it. It seems to statement on the restoration of compensation for be something that we can support, but we will have to victims of pleural plaques. It is now November, so can have consultations with all the different forces in the he tell us why we have not yet received it? House. The Prime Minister: We are meeting the Members of Q12. [297514] Willie Rennie (Dunfermline and West Parliament who have raised this issue with us, and we Fife) (LD): Does the Prime Minister remember will come back to the House with a statement on promising that Rosyth would not become a nuclear exactly that. graveyard? Fifteen years later, not only are seven nuclear submarines still rotting in the dockyard, but the Paul Flynn (Newport, West) (Lab): Does the Prime Prime Minister is considering the dockyard as a Minister still have full confidence that the Afghan army permanent location for those submarines. When will he and police will be prepared to lay down their own lives, live up to his promise? and to slaughter those of their brother Afghans, in the service of foreign powers and in the service of a President The Prime Minister: No decision has been taken on who is corrupt and who has just rigged his own re-election? this. I have to remind the hon. Gentleman that Rosyth dockyard is working as a result of the actions that we The Prime Minister: The members of the Afghan have taken. The aircraft carriers are coming to Rosyth army want a safe and secure Afghanistan, as do most of to be built as a result of a decision that we have made. If the people in Afghanistan. The members of the Afghan other parties had been in power, there would be no army who have been working with the British Army on Rosyth dockyard at all. We have taken the action that is Operation Panther’s Claw are members who were sent necessary. by President Karzai in increasing numbers to back up the work of the British forces. We want to work with the Afghan army and security service. We want to train Q13. [297516] Ms Karen Buck (Regent’s Park and them and mentor them, and I have heard our chiefs Kensington, North) (Lab): With quality child care talking about the quality, in the main, of Afghan army being essential both to allow parents to work and for members, which is something that we want to continue child development, and given the huge investment that to increase and strengthen over the months to come. the Government have made in the national child care strategy over the years, can my right hon. Friend help Mr. Ian Taylor (Esher and Walton) (Con): As a me to understand why some local councils, such as former Science Minister myself, I am well aware that Kensington and Chelsea, are proposing to close their scientific advice can be politically inconvenient, but will nursery schools? What can we do to block this the Prime Minister reassure the scientific community retrograde step? that when disagreements happen, he will engage in rational debate rather than shoot the messenger? The Prime Minister: I hesitate to use the words “iron-cast guarantee”, but we have provided—[Interruption.] The The Prime Minister: Scientific advice is valued by the words have become so devalued over the past few days. Government in every area. On climate change, on foot People will not forget that on Monday the Leader of the and mouth, on dealing with swine flu and on nuclear Opposition also made an iron-cast guarantee to the matters as well as on drugs, we have very good scientists national health service; people will remember that as who have been advising us. From the drugs advisory well. On nursery education, we are determined to ensure committee, we accepted all but three of more than that three and four-year-olds have the best nursery 30 recommendations. The issue was not the ability of education possible. We have increased the number of the committee to give advice or the expertise of the hours for nursery school, and we will continue to make members, it was that once Ministers have had to decide sure that Sure Start provision is available in every a position, after listening to advice on a wider range of constituency. social issues than simply the scientific advice, it does not make sense to send out mixed messages to the whole Q14. [297517] Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): The Prime community about drugs. That is why the Home Secretary Minister promised in June that there would be a made his decision. 859 4 NOVEMBER 2009 860

Speaker’s Statement MPs’ Expenses and Allowances

12.31 pm 12.33 pm Mr. Speaker: Before I call the Leader of the House, I The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet have an announcement to make about the Independent Harman): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to Parliamentary Standards Authority. make a statement. Under the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, it falls Today the Committee on Standards in Public Life, to me as Speaker to select a candidate for the chair of under its chair Sir Christopher Kelly, has published its IPSA. The Act stipulates that the candidate must be report setting out recommendations for a new framework recruited on merit on the basis of fair and open competition, for parliamentary allowances. People in this country and that the choice must be agreed by the Speaker’s need to be able to have full trust and confidence in their Committee for the Independent Parliament Standards Parliament. What happened under the old allowance Authority established under the Act. system has knocked that confidence. Following an open competition carried out by an We come into Parliament not to serve our own self- independent panel, I can today inform the House that I interest but to serve the public interest, but that is not have selected, and the Committee has approved, Professor the impression that the public have. We have all Sir Ian Kennedy as chair-designate of IPSA. His acknowledged that and have recognised that to ensure appointment must be confirmed by the House of Commons that we have a system in which everyone can have before he is formally appointed by the Queen. He will confidence, we need to take action. We have already be paid a maximum of £100,000 a year. [Interruption.] made changes and the Kelly report is another important Order. We are fortunate—[Interruption.] Order. We are step on that path to restoring public confidence. fortunate to have such an eminent candidate for this Before I turn to the Kelly report, I would like to important post. Sir Ian was chairman of the Healthcare remind the House of the action that we have already Commission from its creation until 2009, and he is well taken. To deal with the past, we are ensuring that any known as the chairman of the public inquiry into overpayments, including those which were simply a paediatric cardiac surgery at Bristol Royal infirmary. mistake, are paid back. That is the work that the Members He originally qualified as a lawyer, and he has a long Estimate Committee, which is chaired by you, Mr. Speaker, and distinguished record of chairing and being a member commissioned from Sir Thomas Legg. We have already of public bodies. taken action to change the current allowance system. In IPSA is charged with establishing a new and wholly order to allow for the period while wholesale reform of independent system governing MPs’ allowances that our allowances is being considered, we introduced interim can command the confidence of the public and of this measures last May to pare back allowances as a result House, and I am confident that Sir Ian will bring of a meeting of the party leaders and the Members significant leadership skills to that task. Estimate Committee. Amid the enormous attention paid to past problems, no one should overlook the fact that we have already decided to cap the monthly amount that can be claimed on mortgage or rent; to prevent a Member from changing the designation of their main or second home; to abolish the second home allowance for outer-London Members; and to stop claims for furniture, stop claims for cleaning and stop claims for gardening. Parliament has not sat back waiting for Kelly. The current allowance system is already very different from the one which allowed for the claims that have angered both the public and the House. We have also recognised that for the future, it is no longer appropriate for us to set or administer our own allowance system. That is why in July we passed the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, which sets up the new Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, which will decide on our allowances and run the system, so just as we no longer vote on our own pay increases, we will not play a part in deciding or administering our allowances. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in March asked Sir Christopher Kelly, the chair of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, to review the system of MPs allowances. I would like to thank Sir Christopher and his committee for the important work they have undertaken, and also to thank all those, including many hon. Members, who gave evidence to his committee. His report was published only this morning, but it is obviously right for the House to hear an early statement and to have the chance to air initial views. 861 MPs’ Expenses and Allowances4 NOVEMBER 2009 MPs’ Expenses and Allowances 862

[Ms Harriet Harman] is to continue to take the action needed to sort the situation out and to make the changes that are necessary. MPs representing constituencies outside London need The payback system is under way. The new restrictive to be able to live in both their constituency and in allowance system will remain in place. Sir Christopher Westminster because they need to work in both places. Kelly has recommended a new framework for our We do not want a Parliament where the only people allowances, and IPSA is up and running and will set up who can come to Westminster as MPs are those who are the new allowance system and administer it. Sir Christopher wealthy enough to afford to pay for second homes out Kelly’s report is another important step on the road to of their own pocket. Nor do we want to undermine the the public knowing that the allowance system has been importance of MPs working in two places—the put on to a proper independent footing and that we are constituency and Westminster. Both are important. Nor getting on with our important task of serving our do we want to have a situation where you cannot have constituents and this country. your family with you if you are an MP. The Kelly report This House of Commons has yet to fully resolve this recognises that the allowances are there so that Parliament damaging episode. But with clear acknowledgement of works properly on behalf of people in this country; the the public anger, with the firm action already taken, constituency link is sustained; Parliament is not barred with the Kelly report and the establishment of the to people on modest incomes; and so that Parliament is Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, this not barred to people with a young family. The Kelly will be resolved. I commend this statement to the House. report acknowledges this. The Kelly report covers 138 pages and puts forward Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): I 60 recommendations. Among the key recommendations thank the Leader of the House for her statement and are two that I would like to draw to the attention of the may I take this opportunity to deplore the way in which House. First, on the recommendation that Members Sir Christopher’s report was selectively leaked last week? should not be able to claim for mortgage interest but only for rent or hotels, the committee recommends that This report was commissioned because neither the those with existing mortgages should be able to continue House nor the Senior Salaries Review Body was able to to claim for one further Parliament. It recommends that come up with a sustainable solution to the vexed question Members should not be reimbursed for the employment of our allowances. On behalf of my party, I wish to of family members. Those who currently employ family thank Sir Christopher and his colleagues for producing members will be able to continue to do so for one a thorough report, whose conclusions we shall accept in further Parliament. full and take forward. Turning to the Independent Parliamentary Standards My brief questions fall into two parts—first on the Authority, the acting chief executive, Andrew MacDonald, process for implementing reform and, secondly, on the has been appointed and has begun work, and you, substance of some of the recommendations. On process, Mr. Speaker, have just announced that Professor Sir Ian does the Leader of the House agree that now that the Kennedy has been selected as the new chair-designate of report has been published, our priority should be to IPSA. I will put the motion to confirm his appointment ensure that these reforms are implemented as quickly as to the House in the next few days. The other members possible? Is not the position now very different to that of the authority will be appointed shortly. when Sir Christopher began his review? Then he was going to produce the definitive response on which we The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority would vote, and possibly resolve this by Christmas. But has already started the work of setting up the new since June, as the Leader of the House said, the allowance regime for MPs. A new allowance regime will Parliamentary Standards Act has been put on the statute be in place to come into effect in the new Parliament, as book, giving IPSA and not Kelly the final say on our recommended by Sir Christopher Kelly. In the light of allowances. So today’s report is not the end of the this, the Government welcome and fully accept the process—that rests with IPSA, which is not yet constituted. Kelly report, which should be taken as a whole. It will Does she agree that it is important, therefore, that the be for IPSA to take it forward. This is the approach consultation on Sir Christopher’s report and the Kelly’s report itself recommends. consultation that IPSA is obliged to carry out should Until such time as IPSA takes the Kelly report forward, happen at the same time? Does that not mean that IPSA we will retain the current restricted allowance rules and should be up and running as soon as possible, taking every claim will of course be published and available for Kelly as its text, and if we move quickly, might IPSA the public to see. Because we decided in July that in come to its conclusions on the Kelly report by February? future we would play no part in deciding our allowance Under that scenario, can she confirm that the interim system and that it would be done independently, it does arrangements might run until the new IPSA regime not make sense for us now to vote on the future shape of kicks in, possibly at the beginning of the next Parliament? our allowance system. Instead that is the job of IPSA. Related to that, does she recognise that the continued After all, that is what we set it up to do. The Parliamentary uncertainty of the timetable for establishing IPSA is Standards Act lays down that IPSA must consult MPs causing anxiety for many staff at the Department of and others when drawing up the allowances regime. Resources, who have to keep the show on the road IPSA will set to work immediately and we expect, without knowing their future? Finally, on process, does following such consultations, it to proceed as quickly as the Leader of the House recognise that some of the possible to put into effect the Kelly recommendations recommendations will require primary legislation, and on allowances. when does she plan to introduce that? The events that lie behind the recommendations in Turning to the substance of the recommendations, I the Kelly report have caused anger and dismay both in declare an interest in the employment of relatives. I the public and among hon. Members. Our responsibility believe that there is insufficient appreciation of the 863 MPs’ Expenses and Allowances4 NOVEMBER 2009 MPs’ Expenses and Allowances 864 demanding jobs that all staff do, often at antisocial set up, it would start its work and Parliament can keep hours, and many colleagues on both sides of the House, the legislative framework under review. However, I do and indeed their constituents, will attest to the invaluable not think that we should be addressing the question of service that family members can, and do, provide, as legislating to change the IPSA structure. The important was confirmed by Sir Christopher this morning. However, thing is for it to be getting on with its work. does the right hon. and learned Lady accept, as I do, The right hon. Gentleman acknowledged that the that in a modern Parliament the current arrangements important thing is not to take the proposals piecemeal no longer carry public confidence? Does she agree that and for the House not to pick out any one proposal, but we need to accept Sir Christopher’s recommendations that we should simply send the whole package to IPSA. while considering closely his proposed transitional period However, he commented on the employment of relatives to ensure that the House does not fall foul of employment and accommodation. It is right to recognise, as law? Sir Christopher Kelly did, that a great deal of hard On communications, we welcome Sir Christopher’s work is done by the spouses employed by Members of endorsement of our proposals to scrap the communications Parliament, which is much valued by constituents. allowance, and I welcome what he said on MPs who Sir Christopher’s proposal for a change in the system retain outside interests. I also welcome the recommendation should absolutely not cause a cloud to hang over the to enable IPSA to look at pay, pensions and allowances, heads of those who have done, and continue to do, enabling the full spectrum of MPs’ remuneration to be good work in the public interest, and of course IPSA considered in the round. Does the right hon. and learned will not want to fall foul of employment law. Lady agree that it was the fragmented approach of the past that is partly to blame for the mess that we are in On accommodation, it is of course right that IPSA today? will need to look at the detailed implementation issues that will arise in moving from mortgages to rents or On accommodation, again we support Sir Christopher’s hotels. As the right hon. Gentleman said, we will need recommendations. The public have lost confidence in to look at how IPSA gets it right. It will of course need the current regime, and it has to change. As Sir Christopher to keep an eye on cost, and cost will depend on says, IPSA will need to look closely at the proposals in implementation. the report. There are legitimate concerns with aspects of it, particularly the rules surrounding those who are expected to get back to their constituencies at night. Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): Does the right hon. and learned Lady accept that Sir Christopher Kelly deserves our congratulations and Sir Christopher’s proposals on rent will need to be thanks. The report is comprehensive and thorough. monitored by IPSA to ensure that the overall package is There will of course be issues of detailed implementation, not more expensive than it is now? Does his package but does the Leader of the House agree that we would meet the Prime Minister’s test on reducing the cost to not expect IPSA to disregard any part of what the taxpayer? Sir Christopher calls Finally, the issue before us has dogged the House for “a package, not…a menu of options”? the past 12 months. The public are waiting for action. Should not those colleagues who have expressed difficulties Sir Christopher provides the basis for an enduring with some parts of the report recognise that we have a settlement that is fair to the taxpayer and Members of unique and privileged position—a position that we the House—existing and potential—who need the resources apply for every four or five years? The terms of that to do the job properly without relying on private means. contract have changed. Those who do not like it have a Is it not now paramount that we make urgent progress choice as to whether they reapply. in what remains of this Parliament, so that we can return to our core tasks of scrutinising legislation, The Leader of the House has rightly pointed out holding the Government to account and fighting for what has been done recently. It is only fair also to set our constituents, and so that we can bequeath to our out the criticism in Sir Christopher’s report of what he successors in the next Parliament the opportunity of a describes as fresh start? “a series of piecemeal attempts at reform, some of which were announced while we were deliberating. These attempts have, at Ms Harman: I thank the shadow Leader of the best, lacked coherence.” House for his comments, and I agree with him in deploring the leak. We have made some progress, but we should recognise that criticism. The right hon. Gentleman raised the point about getting on as quickly as possible with the implementation Some of the recommendations cannot be implemented of the Kelly report, and he is right of course that when without changes in either Standing Orders or primary Sir Christopher Kelly started his work, the idea was legislation. Despite what the Leader of the House said that he would produce a report and that it would come in response to the right hon. Member for North-West back to the House to be implemented. After he started Hampshire (Sir George Young), can she assure me that his work, we decided to set up IPSA, to which his report those will be considered as a matter of urgency? will now go for implementation. I confirm to the House It is clear that IPSA will deal with the detailed that IPSA is already up and running. We expect it, of arrangements. Nobody doubts that, but may I renew course, to take Kelly as its text, and the current interim the call for an opportunity for all right hon. and hon. regime of allowances will continue and subsist until Members—not just the lucky few who catch your eye such time as the whole regime is taken over by IPSA. this afternoon, Mr. Speaker—not to vote or amend the On the question about proposals for changes in the recommendations, but to debate them? When I called legislation on the structure of IPSA, obviously if a new for such a debate last week, the Leader of the House Act of Parliament is brought forward and a new authority said that 865 MPs’ Expenses and Allowances4 NOVEMBER 2009 MPs’ Expenses and Allowances 866

[Mr. David Heath] Ms Harman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: that is the paramount role of the House. We should be “the hon. Gentleman should make up his mind: does he really dealing with issues of concern to our constituents and think it right that this House should pick over the question of our the country as a whole, as well as international issues, allowances when we have already decided to make that the not spending a huge amount of time dealing with our responsibility of an independent authority? He cannot be on both allowances, important though they are to enable us to sides of the argument”.—[Official Report, 29 October 2009; Vol. 498, c. 446.] discharge our obligations on behalf of our constituents. I am clear: Sir Christopher Kelly’s proposals should be The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority implemented in full without equivocation. In the light will administer our pay and pensions, which will be of her widely reported comments over the weekend, can decided by the Senior Salaries Review Body. We have she say the same, or is she trying, for whatever reason, already decided not to vote on our pay in future. to be on both sides? Sir Christopher Kelly suggests that perhaps that role too should be co-ordinated with the responsibility of After a disastrous and shaming year for Parliament, IPSA, which is certainly something that we can consider Sir Christopher Kelly has taken us back to where we for the future. However, the fundamental point is that should have been in the beginning when he says: we will no longer be voting on our allowances, just as “Members of Parliament have the right to be reimbursed for we already no longer vote on our pay. unavoidable costs where they are incurred wholly, exclusively, and necessarily in the performance of their parliamentary duties, but Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East) (DUP): First, may not otherwise.” I welcome the publication of Sir Christopher’s report Is that not precisely correct? and the statement by the Leader of the House? I very much approve of the approach that she is taking to this Ms Harman: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that matter. If any parliamentary procedures are required to the report should be seen as a package, not a menu of implement what she laid out in her statement, she can options, as Sir Christopher Kelly recommends. I also be assured that my colleagues will be happy to support agree that Sir Christopher Kelly himself acknowledges her. the progress that the House has already made to improve As the fundamental systemic problem has arisen the system, but nonetheless says that taking a piecemeal from the fact that Members of Parliament have been approach has meant that this progress has lacked coherence. setting both their pay and conditions, and the standards That is why it is important that the Christopher Kelly of their expenses and allowances, it would be entirely proposals go to the Independent Parliamentary Standards wrong for Members of Parliament to attempt in any Authority as a whole, rather than being dealt with way to unpick Sir Christopher’s report. In that context, piecemeal. will the Leader of the House ensure that there will be Obviously the further issues that Sir Christopher Government support for all of Sir Christopher’s Kelly deals with—for example, the structure of the recommendations? Standards and Privileges Committee and various structural There was one issue on which Sir Christopher did not issues to do with IPSA, which are not to do with the feel it appropriate to make a comment—namely the allowances regime package, which needs to be dealt pay, expenses and allowances of Members who do not with as a whole—are ones that we will need to consider. take their seats in this House. In the new circumstances, On allowances, we should all be on the side of ensuring will the Leader of the House ensure that the House has that the House can do its job. It will help the House to the opportunity to vote on that issue? be able to do its job when Sir Christopher Kelly’s Ms Harman: I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s proposals go to IPSA. It is not a question of our comments and the support that he has given to the returning to the work that we need to do; the truth is efforts that the House has taken as a whole to sort the that we have never stopped scrutinising legislation, holding situation out. He is right to recognise that, fundamentally, the Government to account and doing the work of the the problems have arisen because we have attempted House. We need to return to a situation in which the self-regulation. Even with the best will in the world, the public have confidence that that is the case. public do not have confidence that we should regulate our own affairs in that respect any more. Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): On a day I know that there is discussion about the situation in when we mourn the loss of five of our servicemen, Northern Ireland. That will have to be a discussion with many others seriously wounded, does that not put across all the parties, and I know that the right hon. into perspective the question of allowances in our time? Gentleman will be engaged in it. Is it not a fact that Sir Christopher Kelly is trying to end not just one year of frustration about allowances, but Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): My right 30 years in which they have bedevilled the House? hon. and learned Friend should know that the majority May I draw the Leader of the House’s attention to of people throughout the country would endorse her Sir Christopher Kelly’s suggestion that IPSA and the remarks, as well as those of the Kelly report, about Senior Salaries Review Body look at the pay structures family members of MPs, whose work and dedication of Members of Parliament, so that in the longer term has been very much in the interests of the taxpayer and we can marry pay structures with allowances in such a our constituents. In that context, does she recognise way that the dreadful allowances system is abolished for that those employees have rights too? Will she ensure all time and we can get back to discussing Afghanistan, that their particular circumstances are drawn to the the middle east, violence in Northern Ireland, the peace attention of the new standards authority, so that it can process, Iran and all the other issues, including the look properly at what the employment package involves economy? Those are the matters that should occupy the for those who now face uncertainty about their employment House’s attention. prospects? 867 MPs’ Expenses and Allowances4 NOVEMBER 2009 MPs’ Expenses and Allowances 868

Ms Harman: Under the Parliamentary Standards Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): I very much welcome Act, that issue will be the responsibility of the Independent the Kelly recommendations—moving Westminster, as Parliamentary Standards Authority, which will of course they do, towards the higher standard now operating in have to comply with and respect employment rights. I the Scottish Parliament. At the all-party talks on these should like to draw the attention of the House to what issues, much hope was invested by everyone in all the Sir Christopher Kelly said about family members who parties that IPSA would deal with pay, allowances and work for Members of Parliament. He said: expenses, so it must surely be for IPSA to take the Kelly “Despite the publicity that a small number of cases have report forward, and not for MPs to cherry-pick what received, the Committee has no evidence of abuse occurring on a they like from what they do not like. significant scale through the employment of family members. On the contrary, the Committee has heard evidence that many MPs’ Ms Harman: Indeed. When we set up IPSA, and family members work hard and offer good value for money for when we were discussing the Parliamentary Standards taxpayers”. Act, our imperative was expeditiously to set up an authority with the specific remit of dealing with Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): If parliamentary allowances. The Justice Secretary, who the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is took the legislation through the House of Commons, to be truly independent, is it not important that it acknowledged at the time that, once IPSA was up and regards Kelly as its agenda, and not its prescription? running, it might be able to take on a further remit—for Before the authority considers these matters, would it example, that of pay. We are already safeguarded to not be right for the House to have a “take note” debate some extent on pay, however, in that we have already on Kelly? decided not to vote on it. That matter could become Ms Harman: No, I do not think that we should have a statutorily embodied in IPSA in the future, but the most “take note” debate. It might be possible in the future to important thing is that the whole Kelly package on keep under consideration whether there should be a allowances falls to be considered by the authority and further debate, but I do not think that we want to get implemented for the next Parliament. into a situation where we have a vote on the different Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): Does Kelly say aspects of Kelly.We have had an opportunity for Members anything about the generous pay-offs to MPs who leave, to try to catch the Speaker’s eye today. If there is a need then subsequently rejoin, the Government? for further discussions about this, we will have to consider that. The fact of the matter is that we are trying to move Ms Harman: Is the hon. Member talking about the away from the House’s preoccupation with our own ministerial code and the ministerial payments? allowances. Many hon. Members—more than 80, I think; myself included—gave evidence to the Kelly inquiry, Mr. Prentice indicated assent. and he drew up his recommendations and report with that in mind. The matter will now go to IPSA, which, Ms Harman: There have already been changes in under the Act, has the responsibility to consult Members that, so that when a Minister leaves and subsequently of this House as well as others. rejoins the Government, the payment that they received It has been the habit of a lifetime for us to spend a lot on leaving is abated proportionately. That has therefore of time in the House debating our pay. We have now already been dealt with, which I am sure will meet with broken ourselves of that habit, and it was important his approval. that we did so. It has also been the habit of a lifetime for us to discuss our allowances, but we know that, every Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I would like time we do that, we adopt a piecemeal approach and it to thank the Leader of the House for her statement causes dismay among our constituents, who, as my hon. today, and also for her comments before today’s statement. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) In relation to what Sir Christopher has said about the said, are asking why we are not discussing their jobs and employment of spouses, was she surprised by his their prospects. We have now set this independent system recommendation? In particular, was she surprised that, up, and that is how the matter is to be taken forward. I on page 58, he is in fact encouraging wife-swapping? do not rule out the prospect of a debate in the future, but I hope that—in so far as it is in my power to do Ms Harman: Sir Christopher Kelly sets out his argument so—I may rule out the idea that the House will take in full in relation to the employment of those working Kelly and have a series of votes on all the different bits for Members of Parliament. He takes up a debate that of it. That would be very undesirable. was already running strongly in the public domain, and it is not a question of our being surprised. This is a Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab): We have all question of the whole package going to IPSA. made a speech saying that we want nothing to do with the setting of our own pay and allowances, and that we Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Does the Leader of would like those things to be determined by an independent the House recognise that, while many of us say that we body. When that independent body comes along and must fully accept the Kelly recommendations, not all of determines them, we will logically have no alternative us believe that they are as comprehensive or thorough but to accept that. If we do so, that and the other as some have said? Indeed, they will invite the creation changes that we are making will finally give us a realistic of some new anomalies and discrepancies that the new chance of digging ourselves out of the dreadful mess Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority will into which the House has got itself. certainly have to address. Does she recognise that some of us are concerned that five years is too long a period Ms Harman: I strongly agree with my hon. Friend’s for last orders in respect of certain classes of claims for comments. certain classes of MP? There is a serious risk that the 869 MPs’ Expenses and Allowances 4 NOVEMBER 2009 870

[Mark Durkan] Food Labelling (Nutrition and Health) Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order next Parliament will end up being a Parliament of No. 23) double standards, because different standards will apply to the claims and expenses of different MPs. That is a very bad precedent for a legislative assembly to set. 1.10 pm Ms Harman: I do not think that it is unusual, when Helen Southworth (Warrington, South) (Lab): I beg changing from an old system to a new one, to have to move, transitional arrangements, when hon. Members—or anyone That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require simple, uniform else—have already entered into arrangements. The nutritional labelling on the front of packaged foods; and for transitional arrangements should therefore apply. There connected purposes. is nothing unusual about that, and I think that people A very broad coalition of support for action is forming, will understand it. following the extensive research commissioned by the Food Standards Agency and published earlier this year, John Barrett (Edinburgh, West) (LD): The Leader of which found that consumers were confused by the various the House said in her statement that the House of different labelling formats on the front of packaging Commons had to “fully resolve this damaging episode”, and wanted a single simplified system. The labelling but does she agree that it cannot be fully resolved until approach found to be easiest for customers to understand the issue of flipping homes for the avoidance of capital is a combination of traffic light colours, high, medium, gains tax has been investigated? low text and percentage guideline daily amount—GDA— Ms Harman: The avoidance of capital gains tax is a information. The FSA is now formally consulting matter for the Revenue and Customs; it is its responsibility. stakeholders on its findings. As for the designation between main and second homes, A wide range of retailers have already acted in response that has already been addressed at the meeting, chaired to consumer demand for simple at-a-glance information by the Speaker, that was attended by all the party to help busy people to choose to be healthy. The Co-op, leaders, the Members Estimate Committee and the Chair Sainsbury’s, Waitrose, Budgens and Londis, Booths and of the Committee on Members’ Allowances. At that Boots are all using traffic light labelling on their products. meeting, it was agreed—and subsequently taken through The Co-op says: by the Members Estimate Committee and put into “The health and wellbeing of our customers is important to us, effect—that there was to be no change in designation which is why we use traffic lights as a way to convey information between a main and second home. Since May, there has and help customers to make choices about the food that they eat”. been no possibility of that change being made. Even ASDA and Marks & Spencer use a combination system. before then, if a proper, accurate description was not ASDA says: given to the Revenue about a second home, that would “An overwhelming majority of our shoppers have told us this be a matter for the Revenue to look into so that it could is the style of labelling they want to see, so that’s exactly what deal with the tax issues. we’re going to give them”. Peter Bottomley (Worthing, West) (Con): In joining Marks & Spencer said: hon. Members in thanking Sir Christopher and his “We aim to provide our customers with clear information—any colleagues, may I ask the Leader of the House please to details you might want or need to be able to make an informed reconsider her answer to the question on a “take note” choice about what you’re eating”. debate? There are various issues that many people would An increasing number of manufacturers are using traffic like to discuss. Two that I can think of are, first, whether lights in response to customer demand for simple allowances could be set for a Parliament and not changed information. It is very clear from their public each year, as the report has recommended, and, secondly, statements about labelling that they see a benefit in the whether Sir Christopher and his colleagues have given marketplace from listening and responding to sufficient attention to the needs of MPs who have customers’ requirements. young children, because it seems to me that their lives The traffic light system came under fire from some might not be quite so easy under his recommendations sources when it was first being considered because of as they should be. fears that it would mislead customers rather than allow Ms Harman: I will listen to, and reflect on, what hon. them to distinguish between products, but as the system Members say about wanting a debate, but we all need to matures, many manufacturers are using clear, simple ask what the purpose of such a debate would be. We labelling to address the fat, sugar and salt content of have all agreed that, if it was a “take note” debate, there their food, knowing that customers are finding it easy would be no vote on it. Would its purpose be for hon. to make a choice based on quantifiable and easily Members to make comments in the Chamber to IPSA, comparable information. to enable it to understand hon. Members’ position in There is also a clear awareness that customers want the way that they want? If that is the purpose, that can to be able to control the contents of what they eat, and be done either on the Floor of the House in a debate or that giving them the information is essential to allow by writing to IPSA. Bearing in mind the point we are at them to do that. If retailers want customers to buy their now, we must reflect quite carefully: we have had the goods, they have to give customers what they want. Kelly report and IPSA is going to do its work. We McCain, for example, has redesigned its packaging to should perhaps try to work according to an element of include both the FSA traffic light and the GDA, as self-denying ordinance—as soon as I say it, I realise it recently recommended, saying: might be beyond our ability—whereby having legislated “Product reformation... means that most of our products are for an independent authority, we actually allow it to get green and amber. McCain Rustic Oven chips have four green on with its work. lights and have attracted younger users to the category.” 871 Food Labelling (Nutrition and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Food Labelling (Nutrition and 872 Health) Health) The company is working to ensure that its products of sugar to the recommended guideline daily amounts. meet customers’ needs. Sainsbury’s uses the multiple So it is not surprising that people want to be in control traffic lights as a tool for redevelopment of its products, of what they eat. with whole categories reformulated to reduce the number Over the summer, I carried out an extensive consultation of red traffic lights on the front of packs—giving customers with my constituents on the issue of front-of-package what customers want. Marks & Spencer are promoting labelling and what they wanted to see. Overwhelmingly, its improvements to its recipes with banners across the people wanted simple at-a-glance information that was shops, announcing on its website that standard across all manufacturers so that they could “in the past two years we’ve removed over 400 tonnes of salt from choose easily between products—wherever and whatever our food.” they were buying. It is saying that because that is what its customers want. The FSA has identified the single simple system that Yo Sushi, East Midlands Trains, National Express, is best understood by consumers and it has some really Virgin Trains and Mysupermarket.co.uk are all using heavyweight backers. The British Medical Association the FSA traffic light labelling system. The news might says that look good for customers, with such a wide range of “improved consistent labelling will help customers buy healthy suppliers responding to the need for a simple front-of- food and will help them follow their doctor’s advice”. package labelling, but, unfortunately, we still have a The British Heart Foundation supports the FSA’s approach long way to go before customers—busy people, shopping to front-of-package signpost labelling as it offers instant in a busy environment—can make quick decisions about help to customers at the point of sale. The British what is best for them. Dietetic Association says that The Which? “Hungry for change” healthier choices “it is important that one clear front-of-pack scheme is adopted so progress report 2009 comments that that manufacturers can enable consumers to make choices with “the retailers and manufacturers who are already using the traffic confidence.” light scheme have reported that it is having a positive impact, Diabetes UK says that both in terms of enabling consumers to make more informed “it is vital that people with diabetes and those seeking to reduce choices, but also by encouraging reformulation of recipes to the risk of developing the condition get information about foods produce more products with fewer reds, increasing the range of to help make the right choices about what to eat. Providing healthier food products on offer to consumers.” information in different formats is likely to be a little better than It continues: giving no information at all, so it’s really important that the food “It is positive that a lot of products now carry nutrition industry is consistent.” information on front-of-pack as well as back-of-pack, and that The National Heart Forum says: many retailers and manufacturers are using the FSA’s multiple “We know that consumers want a single authoritative nutritional traffic light labelling scheme. However, many are still not using labelling scheme they can rely on, whatever brand and wherever the scheme, including two of the major retailers… and some of they shop”. the main manufacturers despite research showing that it is the best approach. Until there is a consistent UK-wide scheme used The Royal College of General Practitioners across all products based on what works best, there will continue “strongly supports this easily understandable and usable tool to to be confusion”. identify which foods constitute healthy choices”. It is really crucial that we get this right. The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the Experts reckon that about a quarter of all cancer Royal College of Physicians, the UK Public Health deaths are caused by unhealthy diets and obesity. Strokes Association, the National Consumer Council, Netmums, could drop by 13 per cent. if people reduced their daily the National Federation of Women’s Institutes, the salt intake by 3 grams. Heart disease is the UK’s biggest Stroke Association and Which?, together with huge killer, accounting for more than 200,000 deaths every numbers of our constituents, want simple uniform year. Poor diets contribute significantly to the onset of nutritional labelling on the front of packaged foods. heart disease, with diets that are high in fat, salt and We in the House should do everything in our power sugar and low in fruit and vegetables accounting for to make it happen. 30 per cent. of all coronary heart disease deaths. Question put and agreed to. The British Heart Foundation has a very good example Ordered, that supports the necessity to provide dietary information at point of sale. It reports that the snacks most often That Helen Southworth, Shona McIsaac, Mrs. Janet found in vending machines in leisure centres have an Dean, Joan Walley, Mr. Ian Cawsey, Christine Russell, average caloric content of 203; it would take a seven-year-old Mr. Mike Hall, Ms Sally Keeble, Charlotte Atkins, 88 minutes of swimming in the leisure centre pool to Mr. Kevin Barron, Ann Coffey and Derek Twigg present burn off that many calories. It has been estimated that the Bill. 20,000 premature deaths each year could be avoided by Helen Southworth accordingly presented the Bill. reducing daily salt intake to 6 grams; 3,500 more by Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time reduction of fat in foods; and a further 3,500 by reduction tomorrow and to be printed (Bill 158). 873 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 874 Governance Bill Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill New clause 43 deals with human rights claims brought against Scottish Ministers. I will now explain why that [Relevant documents: Report of the Joint Committee on did not form part of the Bill. As Members will be aware, the Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill, Session 2007-08, the provision arises out of the consequences of the on the Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill, HC 551-I House of Lords judgment in the Somerville case, which and–II, and the Government response, Cm 7690. Tenth were more pressing in Scotland as Scottish Ministers Report from the Public Administration Select Committee, are responsible for prisons—unlike Ministers in other Session 2007-08, on Constitutional Renewal: Draft Bill devolved Administrations. Unlike other jurisdictions in and White Paper, HC 499, and the Government response, the UK, there is no time limit in judicial review proceedings Cm 7688. The letter from the Chairman of the Joint to act as an alternative, shorter, time limit to the one Committee on Human Rights to the Secretary of State year. The Somerville case prompted a large number of for Justice dated 26 October 2009.] claims concerning the segregation of prisoners in Scotland, [2ND ALLOTTED DAY] so it was important to achieve clarity on the matter as Further considered in Committee rapidly as possible. As part of the agreement reached, after full discussion, with the Scottish Executive, an order was approved by [SIR MICHAEL LORD in the Chair] this Parliament before the recess under section 30(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 to provide the Scottish Parliament with the competence to amend the Scotland Act to Clause 33 insert a one-year time bar for claims against Scottish Ministers. That was subject to the same power to extend TIME LIMIT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIONS AGAINST the time limit in the interests of fairness and to any rule NORTHERN IRELAND MINISTERS ETC that might impose a shorter time limit. It was agreed that once the Scottish Parliament had amended the Scotland Act, the provisions of that legislation would 1.22 pm be remade in UK legislation and the previous position The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael on legislative competence would be restored to provide Wills): I beg to move amendment 90, page 16, line 28, leave for a consistent approach across the United Kingdom. out lines 28 to 30 and insert— When the order under section 30 of the Scotland ‘(2F) In subsection (2D) “rule” has the same meaning as it has Act was debated, there was cross-party agreement that in section 7(5) of the Human Rights Act 1998.”.’. that was a necessary measure. The views of the Calman commission were formally sought in advance, and it The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means agreed with our approach. It should also be noted that (Sir Michael Lord): I remind the Committee that with the section 30(2) order, which was the first piece of the this we are considering the following: Government legislative solution, was passed unopposed in both the amendment 91. UK and Scottish Parliaments. Emergency legislation Government new clause 43—Time limit for human was passed in the Scottish Parliament, but it did not rights actions against Scottish Ministers etc. receive Royal Assent until 23 July, after the Bill had been introduced. It therefore was not possible to include Mr. Wills: May I say what a pleasure it is be here, provision for Scotland on the Bill’s introduction. Sir Michael, and to speak to amendments 90 and 91 New clause 43 imports the provision made in the and new clause 43 in the name of my right hon. Friend Act of the Scottish Parliament, which inserted a one-year the Justice Secretary? time limit to convention-based claims brought against Clause 33 deals with human rights claims brought Scottish Ministers under the Scotland Act. It also extends against Northern Ireland Ministers and Departments. that provision to such claims brought anywhere in the Clause 34 deals with claims brought against Welsh United Kingdom, ensuring that the protection afforded Ministers. The original clauses 33 and 34 define the in all three clauses is United Kingdom-wide. As in the rules that could impose a stricter limit of less than a amended clauses 33 and 34, the time limit is subject to a year by reference to section 7(9) of the Human Rights power available to the courts to extend it on equitable Act 1998. However, after further discussion with the grounds, and it is subject to any rule imposing a stricter devolved Administrations and further consideration of time limit in the proceedings in question. As in clauses the issue, we now think that it would be better to adopt 33 and 34, the Scottish amendment provides that that a different approach to the definition and to link the “rule” should have the same meaning as is given to the meaning of “rule” more directly to section 7(5). That same word in section 7(5) of the Human Rights Act. will make it clear that the rules under which a case can The amendment dealing with claims against Scottish be brought will be identical as between the two regimes, Ministers will, in line with the terms of the agreement and there is a direct reference to the specific provision in made with Scottish Ministers, preserve the effect of the the Human Rights Act that gives rise to the time limit. provisions of the Act of the Scottish Parliament, but We have therefore tabled amendments 90 and 91 to repeal that Act and the provision that gave the Scottish clauses 33 and 34 to provide that “rule” should have the Parliament the power to make it, thereby restoring the same meaning as is given to the same word in section 7(5) previous position on legislative competence and maintaining of the Human Rights Act, thereby providing a link with a consistent approach across the United Kingdom. the rules, which, for the purpose of that section, also The amendments are part of an important package impose a stricter time limit, and ensuring that the of measures to bring actions against the devolved relevant time limits under the Human Rights Act and Administrations under the devolution Acts broadly in the devolution settlements keep pace with each other. 875 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 876 Governance Bill Governance Bill line with the time limit set out in the Human Rights Mr. Wills: Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that Act. I hope therefore that the Committee will accept this is an immensely complex legal issue? Does he also amendments 90 and 91 and new clause 43. recognise that both sides, the Scottish Government and Whitehall, have gone to great trouble to try to reach a Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I consensus? These things are not always quick and easy, support Government new clause 43 and hope that this but we have moved with all due speed. is the end of a protracted and difficult saga for Scottish May I remind the hon. Gentleman that all Executives Ministers in respect of human rights legislation. are sometimes subject to delays? As I speak, we have still not received from the Scottish Government a crucial The Minister’s account of the history of the saga is document—the legislative consent motion—which we right: it is based on the House of Lords judgment back have been expecting. Does the hon. Gentleman accept in 2007, commonly referred to as the Somerville case, that delays on all sides are inevitable in this process? which meant that there was no one-year time bar for human rights claims against Scottish Ministers under Pete Wishart: Perhaps I have been a little less generous the Scotland Act. The judgment resulted in a number of than I should have been. Of course I understand that a claims for compensation and legal fees against Scottish protracted process has been necessary to take us to our Ministers, who were frustrated that they could not present position. Nevertheless, this has been going on legislate to reverse the position, given that the Scotland since devolution started back in 1999. It has been going Act was reserved to this House. on for a long, long time, and it is not beyond the realms The Scottish public faced the prospect of millions of possibility to suggest that things might have been upon millions of pounds going into the pockets of done a little more quickly. Scottish criminals and convicts instead of into front-line We accept that there are problems with the legislative services and improving the Scottish prison stock. The consent motion, but I know that my colleagues in the judgment would probably have meant that 20,000 prisoners Scottish Government are trying to deal with them. previously thought to have been time-barred would Perhaps, again, I have been a little unfair to the Minister. have been eligible to claim under the anomaly. Therefore, I think that we are all grateful for the fact that the it was important to put the matter right. matter has now been resolved, and I am aware of his Unfortunately, progress was not as speedy as the involvement in its resolution. I know that there have Minister suggests: it took many lengthy negotiations been lengthy, fruitful and productive discussions with and protracted conversations before we got to the happy our Scottish Government colleagues. I am glad that, stage where we could get the legislation through. The regardless of the history, the background and the pain Minister is again right that an order was passed in the and grief that have been suffered, we have reached the House that allowed the Scottish Parliament to legislate happy stage at which a solution has been found, and in on the Scotland Act. As soon as that was decreed, the that respect I am happy with the amendment. Scottish Parliament moved quickly to enact emergency Mr. Heath: I do not intend to oppose the amendments legislation. and new clause. I entirely understand the route by which they have been arrived at. It is good news that, Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): The albeit following a bit of delay, an agreement has been order passed in this House enabled the Scottish Parliament reached between the Scottish Parliament and the to pass amendments to the Scotland Act to introduce a Government in fairly short order. However, I want to bar of one year or less. Will the hon. Gentleman advise enter a few words of caution. the Cttee on whether the Scottish Parliament has in fact The decision of the House of Lords in Somerville etc. legislated for a bar of one year, or for a bar of less than v. Scottish Ministers correctly stated that there were two a year? alternative statutory routes for the vindication of convention rights in Scotland, the Human Rights Act and the Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Scotland Act, and that there was a discrepancy between for that intervention. In fact, the House passed an order the two. That discrepancy has now been dealt with. through delegated legislation that allowed the Scottish My first concern is whether there may yet be any Parliament, under section 100 of the Scotland Act, challenge to the compatibility of the new provision in competence to legislate on the issue. Following that, the the Scotland Act with convention rights. I suspect that Scottish Parliament enacted emergency legislation, which there will not be, but it is a possibility none the less. My amended the Scotland Act by imposing a one-year ban. second concern is that the arguments that may have As the Minister has said, on 23 July the legislation been used to add weight to the claim for compatibility received Royal Assent as the Convention Rights Proceedings between the two statutory routes are based on some (Amendment) (Scotland) Act 2009. Under the Act, the fairly crude assessments of the potential liability under one-year time limit will apply to all proceedings raised human rights legislation in respect of prisons in Scotland. on or after 2 November this year. The amendment I do not believe that the liability that was described was supersedes all current legislation passed by both the a real liability, and it worries me that far too often House of Commons and the Scottish Parliament, and it criticism of human rights legislation is couched in terms has parity across the United Kingdom. of the claims that might be made rather than the outcome of cases that are actually heard. There is, I I also welcome the other Government amendments, think, an important distinction between the two. which will introduce parity across all the devolved institutions throughout the United Kingdom. My only Mr. Wills: The hon. Gentleman has made an extremely hope is that, now that we have reached the happy stage important point about human rights legislation. I agree at which everything seems to have been resolved, we that we must be very careful about demonising the shall see an end to this whole sorry saga. impact and consequences of such legislation. The facts 877 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 878 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Wills] Perthshire may wish to intervene It appears that there is now a different time limit for the bringing of an action are often entirely different from the way in which they where there is potential delictual liability—or, indeed, are portrayed in the media, and I am grateful to the an action in a personal injury case—to that for bringing hon. Gentleman for drawing that to our attention. The an action under human rights legislation. mischief in this case, however, was caused not so much The following situation could therefore arise under by the size of the potential liability as by its uncertainty. the terms of the Bill. Somebody who has been injured All Administrations need certainty and clarity. If there would have a right to bring a case under human rights is a mischief in regard to which people have a legitimate legislation on which there would be a time limit of one claim against the state, it is important for that mischief year, but they would also have a right to bring a normal to be identified and dealt with as quickly as possible, personal injury case or a case under the normal Scots rather than being left uncertain for long periods. The law of delict—which is when someone has had an injury Human Rights Act provides a clearly specified time caused to them by someone else—and that would have limit, as indeed does judicial review. Those times are a normal time limit of three years, or in some cases six relatively short in comparison with the apparently lengthy or seven years. A person could therefore bring an action processes that were opened up by Somerville. under the normal law of delict but by the time they I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who has made a discovered they were not going to succeed in that action valuable point. it would be too late to bring an action under human rights legislation. The opposite situation could also Mr. Heath: And I am grateful to the Minister for his arise: they might bring forward a human rights case and intervention. Such arguments often go without adequate then discover that they had run out of time under the rebuttal, but those of us with an interest in ensuring normal law of delict or personal injury law. I am taking that human rights are properly upheld in this country a long time to explain this in order for the Minister to believe that there is a huge mythology that it right for us have a chance to consider the matter. occasionally to address and, where appropriate, argue against. Having looked at some of publicity surrounding Mr. Wills: I just want to see if I can set the hon. the case and some of the claims made in support of the Lady’s mind at rest on this. This measure affects all need for compatibility, I am not sure whether I entirely convention-based claims, not other claims; the Scottish recognise the contingencies being described. Perhaps I law of delict, for example, is a matter for Scots law. This should be more explicit. I am concerned about whether relates to convention-based claims, which is why this the retrospectivity in the new arrangements will find House is dealing with it; it is a matter of UK law and favour if challenged under human rights legislation. our compatibility with the convention. That aside, however, I think it sensible for there to be a clear co-ordination between the two statutory routes, and I see no reason not to support the amendments and Mrs. Laing: I thank the Minister for that answer, new clause. which is perfectly in order, and I appreciate that that is as far as he can go in discussing this Bill and his Mr. Nigel Dodds (Belfast, North) (DUP): I welcome responsibilities. I am merely putting down a marker the Government’s approach to the introduction of time that there could be a further anomaly here which somebody limits for human rights action against Northern Ireland, somewhere within the Scottish or UK Governments Welsh and Scottish Ministers. I will not rehearse all the might wish to look at before an injustice occurs as a arguments, but I think that this is a sensible provision, result of it—let me put it no more strongly than that. I and, as the Minister will know, it has been welcomed by am glad that the Minister has taken the point on board, the Northern Ireland Executive. Although the Somerville and I am sure his colleagues will look into it. As the judgment did not deal with claims under the legislation Minister has said, this matter is complex and addressing governing the devolved arrangements in Northern it has taken quite some time, and I do not blame him for Ireland—or, indeed, legislation relating to Wales—the that. Not for the first time, however, these mistakes and problems that arose in Scotland could arise there. injustices have arisen because of the way in which devolution has been implemented and as a result of Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): We also matters not having been properly thought through in welcome these provisions. I welcome the provisions advance. already in the Bill, and I was pleased to see that, albeit belatedly, the Government had tabled the new clause. I Mr. Wills: I do not wish to interrupt the hon. Lady in do not blame the Minister for the delay; I appreciate the middle of her flow, but she is straying into very what he said about the complexity of the issue, and I dangerous territory and I want to help her protect agree that it is not surprising that it has taken some time herself from herself. May I remind her that this came to present measures to deal with it. about as a result of a judgment in the House of Lords? I must tell the hon. Member for Perth and North Courts sometimes interpret laws in ways that Perthshire (Pete Wishart) once again—I am making a parliamentarians wish they had not, but that is a crucial habit of this, and I shall have to be careful about part of the separation of powers in this country. It is a it—that he was absolutely right in all that he said. The crucial protection for the people of this country that potential cost to the taxpayer—and the actual cost so sometimes courts take decisions that are awkward or far—of the mistake that was made in allowing an difficult for Governments and politicians of all classes, anomaly to arise have been considerable, but let us hope and when they do so, we have to respond, which is that that flow of taxpayers’ money will now be stemmed. precisely what we are doing. This is not a result of a I am still concerned about one thing, however. I do flaw in the legislation; it is a result of an interpretation not know whether the Minister will be able to answer of the courts. This happens, and it will go on happening my question, and the hon. Member for Perth and North regardless of what the hon. Lady may think. 879 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 880 Governance Bill Governance Bill Mrs. Laing: I am grateful for the Minister’s protection, I declare an interest: I am a Scots lawyer by profession. and I fully appreciate, and agree with, what he says Because of that and the fact that I am also conversant about decisions taken by the courts as, of course, I also in the practice of English law, I have always argued that support the doctrine of the separation of powers. Let it is perfectly possible to have a United Kingdom that me explain what is of concern to me, however. I functions properly for all its citizens throughout our acknowledge that the Minister had nothing to do with entire country under different legal systems—indeed, as the discussions a decade ago on the legislation that the Minister has said, under a devolved system, which became the Scotland Act 1998 and other devolution we now have and which we all want to work properly. In measures, but those of us who were sitting on the order for it to work properly, however, it is incumbent Conservative Benches warned time and again that these on the Government to consider the pitfalls that might anomalies would arise. In this case, it has cost the lie ahead and to consider possible anomalies that might taxpayer several million pounds. Let us hope that further arise, and to protect the legal system, the people, the anomalies do not arise as a result of devolution not principles of justice and, indeed, the taxpayer from the having been properly thought through in these areas. consequences of those anomalies. We warned about this a decade ago, and I am still I appreciate that the Minister has today brought warning now. forward the right legislation to do that. I still agree with the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire that it 1.45 pm is unfortunate that it has taken so long, but at least we Pete Wishart: The hon. Lady was articulating a powerful have it today and we welcome it. point before she was interrupted in full flow by the Amendment 90 agreed to. Minister. She is entirely correct that this is all to do with Clause 33, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. an anomaly. The Somerville case was successful because it identified that anomaly and was able to progress and Clause 34 make a case on the basis of flawed work in respect of the Scotland Act. Like me, the hon. Lady spends many TIME LIMIT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIONS AGAINST hours in Delegated Legislation Committees trying to WELSH MINISTERS ETC clear up some of the mess caused by that Act, so it is Amendment made: 91, page 17, line 12, leave out disingenuous to try to suggest that it was a perfect lines 12 to 14 and insert— document. ‘(3C) In subsection (3A) “rule” has the same meaning as it has Mrs. Laing: I thank the hon. Gentleman for agreeing in section 7(5) of the Human Rights Act 1998.”.’.— (Mr. Wills.) with my point. Like me, he spends many hours in Clause 34, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Delegated Legislation Committees correcting the anomalies of the devolution legislation, and I and many of my New Clause 43 colleagues—and many of his colleagues, and also many of the Minister’s colleagues—spent weeks and months TIME LIMIT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIONS AGAINST in this Chamber raising these matters when we dealt SCOTTISH MINISTERS ETC with the Scotland Act. I am merely saying that we were ‘(1) In section 100 of the Scotland Act 1998 (c. 46) the right then and the Government were too complacent. following (as inserted by the Convention Rights Proceedings (Amendment) (Scotland) Act 2009 (asp 11)) are omitted— Mr. Wills: I shall be brief, as I do not want to protract (a) subsections (3A) to (3E); proceedings unduly. I am sure the whole House has (b) in subsection (4), the words “Subject to subsection noted that a curious alliance and amity is developing (3D),”. between the two parties that opposed devolution, and (2) The Convention Rights Proceedings (Amendment) that did so for completely different reasons, in reliving (Scotland) Act 2009 (asp 11) is repealed. those old arguments. Most of the people of the United (3) Omit paragraph 4A of Schedule 4 to the Scotland Act 1998 Kingdom, including most of the people in Scotland, (c. 46). think devolution has been a great success. It is just worth the hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Perth (4) The Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 4) Order 2009 is revoked. and North Perthshire reflecting on the fact that the House of Lords decided on Somerville by the narrowest (5) Subsections (1) to (4) above do not apply to any of majorities—by three to two. Therefore, the suggestion proceedings brought before this section comes into force. that this was somehow inherent in the legislation is (6) After subsection (3) of section 100 of the Scotland manifestly nonsense. Act 1998 (c. 46) insert— “(3A) Subsection (3B) applies to any proceedings brought by Mrs. Laing: The Minister shows great faith in his virtue of this Act against the Scottish Ministers or a member of Government, but neither the hon. Member for Perth the Scottish Executive in a court or tribunal on the ground that and North Perthshire nor I share it. The Minister is an act of the Scottish Ministers or a member of the Scottish right that there is an alliance of sorts; it is an alliance of Executive is incompatible with the Convention rights. those who care about the Scottish legal system and the (3B) Proceedings to which this subsection applies must be protection of Scots law and its principles. I have not brought before the end of— said anything different from what I said when we discussed (a) the period of one year beginning with the date on these matters and the Scotland Act was passed a decade which the act complained of took place, or ago; I have not changed my position at all. I have always (b) such longer period as the court or tribunal considers argued that the United Kingdom can work perfectly equitable having regard to all the circumstances, well and properly with different legal systems, as it has but that is subject to any rule imposing a stricter time limit in done for centuries. relation to the procedure in question. 881 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 882 Governance Bill Governance Bill (3C) Subsection (3B) does not apply to proceedings brought Committee’s views. The Government response to the by the Lord Advocate, the Advocate General, the Attorney Committee’s report clearly stated that they do General, the Attorney General for Northern Ireland or the Advocate General for Northern Ireland. “not accept the overall view of the Committee”. However, the response also stated that the Government (3D) In subsections (3A) and (3B) “act” does not include the making of any legislation but it does include any other act or “remains committed to nearly all the proposals seen by the Joint failure to act (including a failure to make legislation). Committee”. (3E) In subsection (3B) “rule” has the same meaning as it has That commitment seems to have lasted barely a year in section 7(5) of the Human Rights Act 1998.” before this paring down, which is, in effect, the removal of most of the changes to the Executive power of the (7) In subsection (4) of that section at the beginning insert Government in this area of judicial appointments. I “Subject to subsection (3D),”. simply seek an explanation from the Government as to (8) Subsections (6) and (7) above apply to any proceedings why they have changed their view. Why have they decided brought after this section comes into force (including not to proceed with that which they promised? proceedings in respect of an act taking place before this section comes into force).’.— (Mr. Wills.) Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added Mr. Wills: I will come to the burden of what the hon. to the Bill. Gentleman has been saying, but it may help the Committee if I briefly set out the purpose of this clause and, if I may, discuss the substance of it, which is schedule 5. Clause 35

JUDICIAL APPOINTMENTS ETC The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. The Minister is Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the correct. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome Bill. (Mr. Heath) was moving his discussion from the clause into the schedule. As long as we all understand that we Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I wish are discussing the two things at the same time, that is to ask the Minister exactly what the words “pared fine. down” mean. That was the Government’s description of what they have done to the proposals included in the Mr. Wills: Thank you very much, Sir Michael. If the draft Bill in this respect. In this instance, “pared down” hon. Member for Somerton and Frome wants to ask appears to mean omitted in their entirety, rather than individual questions on schedule 5, I hope that he will anything that could satisfactorily be described using intervene on me as we go. that term. I am curious to learn exactly why the Government have thought again. Mr. Heath: I just want to be clear, Sir Michael, In 2007, a clear commitment was given that the whether we are dealing with schedule 5 stand part at the Government would surrender some Executive power, same time, in which case I have one other point to make. and judicial appointments was one of the 12 areas I am in your hands, Sir. explicitly mentioned. The 2008 draft Bill made some explicit proposals in this area: it proposed that the Lord The Second Deputy Chairman: It was the hon. Gentleman Chancellor’s role be reduced by removing his power to who led us astray in the first place by moving his reject or require reconsideration of selections made by discussion from the clause into the schedule. He could the Judicial Appointments Commission for all judicial deal with any other points he has to make through offices below the High Court; it proposed to remove the interventions on the Minister, but in fact we are dealing requirements for the Lord Chief Justice to consult the with the two things together, if he is happy with that. Lord Chancellor or obtain his agreement before exercising functions such as deploying judiciary to certain leadership Mr. Wills rose— posts; it proposed to place new duties on the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chief Justice, the JAC and the selection panels to ensure that selection processes are Mr. Heath rose— fair, transparent, efficient, flexible, proportionate and effective and to have regard to the JAC’s need to act The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. Perhaps the independently; and it proposed to place new duties on hon. Gentleman could make the final point that he the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice to wishes to make and the Minister could reply after that. encourage diversity in judicial appointments. The only thing that has remained from that list is the Mr. Heath: Thank you for getting us out of a procedural removal of the Prime Minister from the process, but as I conundrum in respect of exactly who should be speaking, suspect the Prime Minister has never actively intervened Sir Michael. The point that I wish to raise on schedule 5— in this process, other than on the express advice of the this may assist the Minister in collecting his thoughts— Lord Chancellor, that is, in effect, a cosmetic change. relates to the Government’s response on the order-making The only argument that I could advance that the power to exempt positions from the JAC’s remit. In Government may have for dropping these changes is the response to the Joint Committee’s report, the Government opposition from the Joint Committee on the Draft said: Constitutional Renewal Bill, which expressed a view “The Government remains convinced that the most appropriate that to introduce reforms at this stage might create an way to resolve this issue is an order making power”, imbalance in the proposals contained in the Constitutional but they went on to say that the Government Reform Act 2005. “no longer believes this Bill is the appropriate vehicle for such a That might be an argument, were it not for the fact change, and in the meantime will explore further non-statutory that the Government have already rejected the Joint options available.” 883 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 884 Governance Bill Governance Bill I would like to know precisely what that means. What Mr. Timpson: As the Minister might recall, this was are those “non-statutory options” that the Minister is an issue that I raised with the Lord Chancellor on exploring? When does he expect to bring forward more Second Reading. I have in fact written to him to set out detailed proposals? What will they encompass? specific examples of where there are some holes in the Schedule 5 removes magistrates from the JAC’s remit number of judges in certain circuits across the country. by deleting them from schedule 14 to the 2005 Act. Clause 35 and schedule 5 will, on the face of it, reduce Presumably there is a good reason for that. The 2008 the time that the medical assessment of a potential draft Bill also proposed an extremely broad order-making candidate will take, but they do not set out in any power allowing the Lord Chancellor to amend any part practical terms how that will affect the time from application of schedule 14 to the 2005 Act to exempt candidates to to appointment. Can the Minister give us some idea of certain offices from being selected by the JAC. I think how much of an effect that process will have? that procedure was intended to allow redeployment, Mr. Wills: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman and if rather than appointment, and to facilitate matters within he will bear with me, I shall come to that point as I the field of judicial appointments. It would have been a proceed through all the advantages of the schedule. sweeping power and, as such, it was not entirely surprising Obviously, if he has written to the Lord Chancellor, I that it met with opposition from the JAC itself, the Lord am sure that he will receive a full and completely Chief Justice, the House of Lords Constitution Committee adequate reply in a timely fashion. and the Joint Committee. Although that proposal has now been dropped, we face the threat or promise of Paragraphs 2, 3, 4 and 9 of schedule 5 remove the arriving at the same result by alternative means. We are Prime Minister from the appointment process of the entitled to know from the Minister exactly what those president, deputy president and judges of the Supreme alternative means are and what the Government’s Court. Paragraph 2 amends section 26 of the Constitutional intention is. Reform Act 2005, with the effect that when presented with a candidate chosen by a selection commission Mr. Wills: As has been discussed, clause 35 gives recommendations for appointment will now be made by effect to schedule 5, which makes amendments relating the Lord Chancellor instead of by the Prime Minister. to judicial appointments and other matters. I hope that Instead of notifying a selection to the Prime Minister, my brief run through what the schedule contains will the Lord Chancellor is to make a recommendation for help the Committee in deciding on this matter. appointment. Paragraphs 3, 4 and 9 make various What the Government have sought to do throughout consequential amendments to the 2005 Act. their constitutional reform agenda is to recalibrate to Although we accept that the Executive need to retain ensure that we have the right relationships between the a limited role in the appointment of the justices of the citizen, the Executive, the legislature—Parliament—and Supreme Court, so that there is a direct line of accountability the judiciary. So, for example, the founding of a Supreme to Parliament for such appointments, the Government Court was a profound constitutional change, which believe that, as with all other judicial appointments, the symbolises and entrenches legally, the separation of Lord Chancellor has the necessary authority to fulfil powers between the state and the judiciary. However, this role. Involving the Prime Minister in addition to the there are also smaller steps that we must take to achieve Lord Chancellor at a point twice removed from the the goals of this reform programme, and although they work done by the independent selection commission are smaller, they are not necessarily nugatory. that is convened to recommend appointments to the Clause 35, and the provisions in schedule 5, to which Lord Chancellor in the first place only serves to perpetuate it gives effect, both help to limit the role of the Executive an erroneous perception that the appointment process and reinforce the independence of the judiciary. They is not as independent from the Executive as it should be. also make a number of other minor changes to streamline For that reason, the Government believe that even the judicial appointments process. The Government though the Prime Minister’s role in recommending the remain committed to nearly all the proposals seen by final nomination to the Queen is a limited one, removing the Joint Committee on the draft Constitutional Renewal that role is very much in line with the Government’s Bill and we will continue to review and develop them long-standing reform agenda of reducing the role of the separately from the forthcoming Bill, along with its Executive, where appropriate, wherever possible. judicial partners. Paragraphs 5 and 6 of the schedule transfer responsibility for obtaining medical assessments of selected candidates 2pm for judicial office from the Judicial Appointments Commission to the Lord Chancellor. That is supported Mr. Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): by the commission because it sees the process of medical The Minister has mentioned that some minor amendments assessment as part of the final appointment process, to this Bill are being proposed to try to streamline the rather than the initial selection process. In addition, judicial appointments process. Can he tell the Committee there was consensus in consultation that this aspect of what assessment is being made of the effect that these the appointment process should be quicker—and so streamlining measures will have on attempts to reduce there is general agreement with the burden of the appraisal the unfortunate delay that there still is in the appointment made by the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich of judges, which is causing such problems in our court (Mr. Timpson), which is that it has taken too long. system? Mr. Timpson indicated assent. Mr. Wills: I am happy to set out our thinking. It would give me a little more help in addressing the hon. Mr. Wills: The hon. Gentleman is nodding. There is Gentleman’s particular concerns if he could be a little general agreement that this needs to be quicker, and the more specific about the problems to which he is referring. proposal helps to streamline the process by reinforcing If he could list them, I will be happy to address them. an administrative move to a system of self-certification 885 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 886 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Wills] Paragraphs 7 and 10 provide for the removal of magistrates from schedule 14 to the 2005 Act. Schedule 14 rather than a medical assessment by a doctor in every to that Act lists the offices that comprise the statutory case—only in those cases where the self-certification recruitment and selection remit of the Judicial reveals a cause for concern will candidates be asked to Appointments Commission. Magistrates were included undergo a medical assessment. The proposal should in schedule 14 under the title of justices of the peace as speed up and streamline the process. No systems are it was originally intended that recruiting and selecting perfect and obviously if further problems remain, we for the role should be a part of the Judicial Appointments will address them. I hope that provides some reassurance Commission’s remit. to the hon. Gentleman. The current system has the considerable advantage of The Joint Committee was in favour of the proposal, providing invaluable local input into the process of but questioned whether it could be achieved without the recruiting and selecting local people to deliver local need for legislation. The Government view is that legislation justice. Advisory committees are composed of local is needed to provide absolute clarity. Sections 96 and 97 magistrates and at least one third of local lay persons. of the 2005 Act provide for medical assessments of This helps to ensure that the recruitment and selection those who have been selected for appointments to be of magistrates is firmly grounded in the communities in conducted by the Judicial Appointments Commission. which they serve. I hope that the whole House will agree Paragraph 5 of the schedule makes amendments to the that that is a desirable outcome. Agreement has been provisions in section 96 of that Act relating to medical reached between the Lord Chancellor, the Judicial assessments. Sub-paragraph (3) adds new subsections Appointments Commission, the Lord Chief Justice and (2A) and (2B) to section 96 to enable the Lord Chancellor the Magistrates’Association that the Judicial Appointments to request a person who has been selected for appointment Commission will not in future take responsibility for by the Judicial Appointments Commission to provide the recruitment and selection of magistrates. information about his or her physical or mental condition. Paragraph 10 of schedule 5 to the Bill removes The Lord Chancellor may specify a period in which the magistrates from schedule 14 of the 2005 Act. The information has to be supplied. recruitment and selection function will therefore remain Sub-paragraph (4) amends section 96(3). The amendment for the foreseeable future with local advisory committees, made to that section provides that the Lord Chancellor where it is performed effectively and with a high degree may also request a candidate to undergo a medical of independence by dedicated volunteers drawn from assessment and for a report of that assessment to be among magistrates and members of the local community. made available to the Lord Chancellor. The provisions Paragraph 7 of schedule 5 amends section 118 of the replace section 96(3) under which the Lord Chancellor 2005 Act to ensure that even though magistrates have may direct the Judicial Appointments Commission to been removed from schedule 14, they will remain within make arrangements for any assessment of the health of the scope of the disciplinary powers exercised by the those who have been selected for appointment. Lord Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor. This could have been done by making an order under section 118, Sub-paragraph (5) modifies section 94(4) and sub- but in this instance the Government feel that primary paragraph (6) inserts new subsections (4A) and (4B). legislation is the most efficient way to make the necessary These provide that the Lord Chancellor may, after changes. It most closely reflects the current arrangements, consultation with the Lord Chief Justice, notify the under which the disciplinary scheme applies to magistrates Judicial Appointments Commission that he or she is by means of primary legislation. not proceeding with an appointment if the circumstances specified in new subsection (4A) apply.These circumstances Paragraph 8 of schedule 5 clarifies that confidential are if the candidate does not comply with a request to information obtained during the appointment or provide information under the new subsection (2B) or disciplinary process can be shared with the police for to undergo a medical assessment under proposed new specified purposes relating to the prevention or investigation subsection (3)(a), or if the Lord Chancellor is not of crime, including for the purposes of criminal proceedings. satisfied on the basis of a medical report under proposed Current sections of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 new subsection (3)(b) that it would be appropriate to covering the disclosure of confidential information do proceed with the appointment. not explicitly allow such information to be provided. We do not consider the proposal to be controversial: it Sub-paragraph (7) amends section 96(5) to make it is considered that any indication that a criminal offence clear that if a candidate is rejected, any other selection had been committed could be disclosed to the police for the same appointment or recommendation is to be without the need for an explicit gateway, but without a disregarded and that the candidate must not be selected legislative change the Ministry of Justice could be left again pursuant to that request for the same appointment open to the possibility of litigation that would be costly or recommendation. Sub-paragraphs 8 and 9 are in terms of both time and money. We therefore want to transitional provisions that ensure that the new procedures make it completely clear that confidential information apply only to requests to undergo medical assessments could be disclosed to the police. made after the relevant provisions of the Bill have come We are confident that sharing confidential information into force. for the purpose of preventing a crime, or for the purposes Paragraph 6 is a consequential amendment in relation of a criminal investigation or procedures, will be compatible to Scotland and Northern Ireland. It ensures that where with the principles of data protection. The Data Protection reference was made in section 97(1)(e) to the duty to Act does not stand in the way of such disclosures, so consult the relevant head of judiciary under section 96(4)(a), they would either be compatible with data protection the reference in section 97(1)(e) now refers to the duty principles or fall under the exemption to the Act that to consult the relevant head of judiciary set out in relates to the prevention or detection of crime, or the section 96(4B). apprehension or prosecution of offenders. 887 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 888 Governance Bill Governance Bill The proposal was raised in the White Paper, welcomed that we have achieved a quite revolution in bringing by the Joint Committee, and also supported by the JAC. about a programme of constitutional reform. I am It will bring the judicial appointments process into line completely confident that it will stand the test of time. with the process in other organisations. We will continue with the reform programme; nothing Paragraph 1 of schedule 5 corrects a typographical is postponed sine die. error. I was perhaps harsh with the hon. Members for Question put and agreed to. Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) and for Clause 35 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) for alleging that the Schedule 5 agreed to. Government had allowed an anomaly to creep into the devolution legislation. They were wrong about that, but I hold my hand up to the typographical error. Clause 36 The error came about because the original section 21(4) was substituted by the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, SALARY PROTECTION FOR MEMBERS OF TRIBUNALS which also inserted section 21(4A). The amendments Question proposed, That the clause stand part of came into force on 3 April 2006, and this has been the the Bill. first legislative opportunity to correct the error. The correction is uncontroversial and has no adverse impact, Mr. Heath: I have a couple of very brief questions but I apologise to the Committee for the fact that it was about clause 36. They also relate to Government new allowed to creep in in the way that it did. clause 23, which is a very similar provision relating to I turn now to the question asked by the hon. Member Northern Ireland. I therefore hope, Sir Michael, that it for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) about why we will not disturb our proceedings too greatly if we do not dropped certain provisions. We did not drop them: the repeat these questions later. way that I would phrase it—and I hope that he will First, why have the specific offices mentioned in the agree that this is an accurate reflection of what happened—is clause been chosen? Do any similar offices exist for that we listened. We consulted extensively on this Bill, which the Government have not felt it necessary to and we listened carefully to what hon. Members, the provide this protection? Joint Committee and other people said. We took to heart what the Joint Committee said Secondly, what is the position of the lay members of about making changes to a process that in effect has tribunals? Chairmen have salaried posts, but do lay been in operation for only a short period. We remain members have the same protection? I was approached committed to nearly all the proposals put to the Joint over the summer by a lay member of an employment Committee, but we take the point that it might be tribunal who was extremely concerned that there appeared sensible to allow the changes already in place to bed to be arbitrary changes in what he was expected to do as down before we decide exactly how to take them forward. a tribunal member, the conditions under which he was expected to work and the remuneration that he could We will continue to develop the entire judicial expect in terms of appropriate expenses. To what extent appointments process in partnership with our judicial does the protection offered to what are quasi-judicial partners separately from the Bill. We recognise that tribunal appointments extend to the lay members who there is more work to do, and I think that the judiciary sit alongside them? Lay members provide a very important agree. We do not regard this as a closed chapter, but resource to the country in helping to arbitrate sometimes merely as an onward step in the process. extremely difficult issues. Mr. Heath: I think that we can take it from what the Minister has said that, when the Government told Mr. Wills: I think that it partially answers the hon. the Joint Committee that they did not accept the Gentleman’s question if I say that we are seeking to recommendation, what they meant was that they did correct a legislative anomaly. Every hon. Member agrees accept it and that they would remove the promises to with the principle that we should have an independent remove certain areas of judicial appointments from judiciary in this country, and that that independence Executive control. Are those promises are now shelved should be robustly protected in all ways. sine die, or does he have firm proposals to bring them We have talked about the appointments process, in back at an early date? which we are trying to entrench that fundamental principle Mr. Wills: I think that the hon. Gentleman is using of independence. Another crucial aspect of judicial the very wide margin of appreciation afforded to Opposition independence is salary protection for judicial office Members to interpret what I said. That is not what I holders, and that is what clause 36 is designed to advance. said: I said that we listened to the concerns and agreed There is a legislative anomaly, and we are trying to that the right thing to do was to allow time to see how remedy it by providing a statutory prohibition preventing the proposals already in place bedded down. the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor from determining reductions in the salaries of judicial office I also said that we are committed to nearly all the holders in tribunal services. proposals originally put forward. To that extent, we do not accept the Committee’s recommendation that we The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) should not proceed with the changes. We think that they asked why only these members of the judiciary are have merit, but also that we should allow more time to mentioned in the clause, and the answer is that most see precisely how we should take them forward. other judicial office holders are already protected in primary legislation from the Executive determining 2.15 pm reductions in their salaries. That statutory salary protection The promises are not postponed sine die. The is widely regarded as an important safeguard of judicial Government have shown that we are serious about independence against Executive interference, but currently constitutional reform in all areas. Many people consider there are no equivalent provisions for tribunal judges. 889 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 890 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Wills] part of judicial independence. We have just passed clause 36, which provides it for tribunal office holders. This change is designed to harmonise the statutory With the inclusion of the provisions concerning England safeguards of judicial independence across the judiciary, and Wales giving statutory protection for tribunal judges, and it was welcomed by the Joint Committee. we saw an opportunity to bring salary protection for the Lay members of tribunals will not have the same judiciary in Northern Ireland into line with that in protection, precisely because of the principle of judicial England and Wales. That is what the new clause will do. independence. Lay members do valuable and crucial Mr. Dodds: I welcome the Minister’s comments on work, but none the less they are not part of the judiciary new clause 23. I have a couple of brief questions. I in quite the same way. should be grateful if he could outline the extent to It might be worth informing the Committee that which there was consultation with the Northern Ireland there are a relatively small number of judicial office Court Service and others in the Northern Ireland Office holders who will still not receive salary protection in the on the matter, given the current debate on the devolution way set out in clause 36. The judge advocate general of justice powers in respect of Northern Ireland. and the deputy and assistant judge advocates general Further to the questions posed earlier by the hon. are not covered by primary legislation because they fall Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), can the outside the mainstream judiciary. Minister outline what the measure will mean in relation I hope the Committee will feel able to support the to those judicial and tribunal officers in Northern Ireland clause. who are not covered? There is an extensive list in new Question put and agreed to. clause 23 but what about the officers not covered? Are Clause 36 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. any posts in Northern Ireland specifically related to the Province not covered by salary protection provisions?

New clause 23 Mr. Wills: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his welcome for the new clause and for his questions. SALARY PROTECTION FOR OFFICE HOLDERS IN We consulted everyone appropriate in Northern Ireland, NORTHERN IRELAND including the Court Service, so I can reassure him on that. ‘(1) A person’s salary determined under any of the following provisions may be increased, but not reduced, by further On the question who is covered and who is not, the determinations. provision covers the salaried judiciary in the courts as (2) The provisions are— well as social security and child support commissioners, (a) section 106(1) of the County Courts Act (Northern but as I think the hon. Gentleman was suggesting, there Ireland) 1959 (c. 25 (N.I.)); are a number of other tribunal judiciary in Northern (b) section 12(1) of the Magistrates’ Courts Act (Northern Ireland who are not included. That is because this is a Ireland) 1964 (c. 21 (N.I.)) as it applies in relation to matter for the devolved Administration. As I said, we persons appointed under section 9(1) of that Act. have made the relevant Departments aware of our plans (3) Subsection (5) applies if, in accordance with the terms of a to introduce these changes. It is a matter for them person’s appointment, the person is to be paid a salary (as whether they choose to follow suit. opposed to fees) under any of the following provisions. Question put and agreed to. (4) The provisions are— New clause 23 accordingly read a Second time, and (a) section 2(1) of the Coroners Act (Northern Ireland) added to the Bill. 1959 (c. 15 (N.I.)) as it applies in relation to the remuneration of coroners (but not deputy coroners); New clause 20 (b) section 70 of the Judicature (Northern Ireland) Act 1978 (c. 23); LORDS JUSTICES OF APPEAL (c) paragraph 2 of Schedule 4 to the Child Support ‘(1) The Constitutional Reform Act 2005 is amended as Act 1991 (c. 48) as it applies in relation to persons follows. appointed under section 23(1) of that Act; (d) paragraph 7 of Schedule 2 to the Social Security (2) Omit sections 76 to 84.’.—(Mr. Bellingham.) Administration (Northern Ireland) Act 1992 (c. 8) as Brought up, and read the First time. it applies in relation to persons appointed under section 50(1) of that Act. Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): (5) Under the provision in question the person’s salary— I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. (a) must be determined and paid accordingly; The Second Deputy Chairman: With this it will be (b) may be increased, but not reduced, by further convenient to discuss new clause 22—Written tests by determinations.’.—(Mr. Wills.) the Judicial Appointments Commission— Brought up, and read the First time. ‘(1) Section 88 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 is amended as follows. Mr. Wills: I beg to move, That the clause be read a (2) After subsection (5) insert— Second time. “(6) At no stage during any selection procedure may the In speaking to the new clause, I hope I will address Commission apply any written tests.”’. the final part of the remarks of the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath). The new clause Mr. Bellingham: I should declare an interest as a provides a guarantee that the salaries of certain judicial barrister. I should also point out that I am not at office holders in Northern Ireland may not be reduced. present seeking any judicial appointments. I did at one As I said, the statutory salary protection is a crucial stage have serious ambitions to become a high-flying 891 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 892 Governance Bill Governance Bill QC who might go on to one of the highest judicial minutes before the press release went out from No. 10? appointments in the land, but I suspect that what I am That was the extent of consultation for our most going to say in a few minutes will probably not endear senior judge. me to the Judicial Appointments Commission. Mr. Bellingham: My hon. Friend is right about that. New clause 20 removes from the scope of the JAC the It indicates the Government’s cavalier attitude to parts appointment of Court of Appeal judges, the Lord of the constitution that we regard as precious. They Justices of Appeal. It does this by removing the relevant cannot look at those parts of the constitution without sections of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. New wanting to kick them hard. clause 22 clarifies section 88 of that Act by stating clearly in the legislation that the JAC will not be able to Mr. Wills: I intervene with great hesitancy because I continue with its unpopular and, I would suggest, am interested in the word picture that he is painting of discredited written tests. the Government. Can he tell me what all this has to do Why are we proposing these two new clauses? We with new clause 20? need to have a quick look at the JAC and the background Mr. Bellingham: I am grateful to the Minister for to it. It was set up by section 61 of the 2005 Act. It was a taking over the role of the Chair. It is important to completely new system and represented a significant understand the background to the JAC because that is departure from the previous system, which was based the context of the constitutional reforms. on recommendations to the Lord Chancellor. This was I should now like to consider the system of judicial part of a much wider package of constitutional changes appointments and consider whether the old system involving the position of the Lord Chancellor, the new worked, because we need to look at the previous system Supreme Court, which we shall discuss later this afternoon before we can reach a considered opinion on how the if new clause 21 is reached, and judicial appointments new system is working. in Northern Ireland. Another important part of that package of constitutional changes was the creation of 2.30 pm the Ministry of Justice, which took over the former Department for Constitutional Affairs and took over Mr. Heald: Does my hon. Friend agree that the JAC from the Home Office responsibility for prisons and the is an important part of the patchwork of compromises probation service. and decisions that had to be made following the decision to abolish the position of Lord Chancellor? For example, When the proposals were announced, they were notorious there was also the concordat, a very lengthy document for the lack of proper consultation. There was no Green agreed with Lord Woolf, which had to be produced Paper and no White Paper. As I understand it, there was because the Government had no idea of the complexity no consultation even with Her Majesty. There was no of what they were trying to do during the ministerial consultation with the judiciary, the Lord Chief Justice reshuffle. or the senior Law Lords. The then Lord Chancellor, the noble Lord Irvine of Lairg, was not consulted. He was Mr. Bellingham: Again, my hon. Friend, who followed told about the changes only after the decisions had been the issue carefully at the time, is absolutely spot-on. taken. He was told that, as part of the original package, Indeed, many of us took the view that the JAC, which his own post was to be abolished. was established by the relevant sections of the Constitutional As the noble Lord Neuberger recently commented, Reform Act 2005, was created on the basis that the all this was completely unprofessional and seemed like position of Lord Chancellor would be abolished. But of the product of late night whiskeys and back of an course the position was not abolished, because it was envelope calculations by the then Prime Minister, Tony discovered that, as part of the reform of our constitution, Blair, and some of his sofa government cronies. He did it would be almost impossible to do that without introducing not look carefully at what would be required in getting a much lengthier Bill. rid of the post of Lord Chancellor. He did not appreciate Jeremy Wright (Rugby and Kenilworth) (Con): Does at the time that it would require primary legislation, and my hon. Friend agree that this issue is part and parcel of he did not realise that there are 5,000 references to the the problem with the Government’s overall approach to post of Lord Chancellor in our law. constitutional reform, whereby they start down a road Lord Irvine of Lairg has now broken his silence and with no clear idea of their destination? The later provisions accused the then Prime Minister of blocking his ideas, of the Bill will show that the same thing is happening to botching the reforms and humiliating him. Perhaps we the House of Lords as happened to judicial appointments. should not worry too much about the latter point. He spoke about Mr. Bellingham: My hon. Friend is 100 per cent. correct, because we have seen a hotchpotch of different “the chaotic, even cavalier way” reforms. Indeed, they were initially predicated on getting in which the business was conducted, with the then rid of the post of Lord Chancellor and moving the Law Prime Minister Lords out of the House of Lords and into the new “winging it on hunches, using inadequate advice” Supreme Court. But, as my hon. Friend rightly points and having out, a decision was taken at the time without any clear idea of how the legislation would be framed, and as a “scant regard for procedure.” consequence we are picking up different bits of it. It is indicative in many ways. Did the previous system of judicial appointments work? Did it deliver an exceptionally high calibre of Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): judges? The answer is undoubtedly yes, and the system Is my recollection correct, and does my hon. Friend cost virtually nothing. One issue that has been raised at remember, that the Lord Chief Justice was told five the Bar for as long as I can remember is diversity, but we 893 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 894 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Bellingham] Mr. Wills: Again, may I just say how much I am enjoying this paean of praise to equality and diversity? are looking at it from the wrong direction in terms of It is particularly bracing, coming as it does from the judicial appointments. The key point is to look at it Conservative Front Bencher. However, will the hon. from the point of view of access to the professions, Gentleman tell me how it is relevant to the provisions because if the most able and competent people, from all that affect the Judicial Appointments Commission? backgrounds, are attracted to them and do well at the Bar, for example, as solicitors or in other, linked professions, Mr. Bellingham: The Minister is obviously desperate they will be appointed to the Bench and, I hope, secure to join the Chairmen’s Panel, whereupon he will be able judicial appointments. to control debates in that way. It is up to a Committee’s At the Bar, for example, which is the part of the Chairman to say whether I am in order, however, and it profession I know most about, the percentage of ethnic is important that we look at the background to the JAC. minority students at law school and in paid pupillages is If we do, we will be able to see whether the clauses make far greater than the percentage of ethnic minorities in sense. the population as a whole. The Bar has reached out to The issue is also about judicial appointments and schools throughout the country, and explained to schools what our constituents expect from the judiciary. When and universities what a career at the Bar is all about. My our constituents appear before a court, be it a magistrates hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire court, county court, Crown court or the High Court, (Mr. Heald) and I virtually had to pay for our pupillages, above all else they want to encounter a level of expertise, but now one has paid pupillages. wisdom, fairness and professionalism. After all, at that I pay tribute to those former chairmen of the Bar juncture in their lives, they may be facing the loss of Council, Geoffrey Voss and Timothy Dutton, who worked their liberty, property or finances, or the removal of a incredibly hard on ensuring that the Bar made sterling child from their custody, so they are not interested in efforts to reach out to schools throughout the country, the gender, race or able-bodiedness of the judge. All and on widening access to the Bar. That work has been they are interested in is competence, expertise, wisdom continued by Desmond Browne QC, the current chairman and the judge’s ability to deliberate upon the case and of the Bar Council, and he has stated time and again reach the right conclusion. that he is passionate about the issue and feels strongly that the Bar must ensure that access is widened as much Mr. Heath: I am listening intently to the preamble to as possible. I am sure that the Minister agrees that, on the subject of the hon. Gentleman’s new clauses. I this issue, the Bar sets a glowing example. Law schools understand that he has concerns about the way in which are full of overseas students, students from Commonwealth the JAC works, but why is he exclusively concerned countries, Dominion countries and people who will about the way it selects Lords Justices of Appeal and undoubtedly go on to great success in their own countries. not, apparently, about the way it appoints Lords Chief Justice, heads of division or puisne judges? I remember that when I was at law school, I had a number of fellow pupils from Commonwealth countries, Mr. Bellingham: If the hon. Gentleman waits a little and they have since gone on to high judicial appointments while, he will hear the answer, because I am about to and, indeed, to high political office. In fact, one come to it and he will be all the wiser, I hope. contemporary has even gone on to become king of a country. Mr. Wills: The hon. Gentleman is now getting to the guts of his argument, but will he clarify something, as Mr. Heald: Does my hon. Friend agree that one great much for his own interest as for anyone else’s? He quite thing about ethnic minority solicitors is that they have rightly set out what our constituents expect when they been able to set up small firms that cater for the interests appear in front of the judiciary. From memory, the JAC and needs of a particular community? One damaging has appointed 12 Court of Appeal judges. The casual aspect of the Carter review has been the attempt to listener may think that he implies that those force all firms to conform to a particular size and way 12 appointments did not meet the criteria that he just of working. It has impacted, and will impact, badly on set out. Would he like to clarify his view on that? Does many ethnic minority solicitors, who until now have he think that those 12 appointments meet the criteria? been able to become the senior partner in a firm and move on to judicial office later. Does my hon. Friend Mr. Bellingham: I think that they are excellent agree that the reforms, though well intentioned, may appointments, but they could have taken place under establish a glass ceiling? the old system anyway without the need for this extremely costly bureaucracy. Mr. Bellingham: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Section 64 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005—my that observation, because it illustrates the Government’s hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire complete lack of joined-up thinking. They have made spoke eloquently on it at the time—is headed, various changes to legal aid, and, as a result, their “Encouragement of diversity”. It states: absolute obsession with consolidation and “big is best” “The Commission, in performing its functions under this Part, will drive out of business many small firms, particularly must have regard to the need to encourage diversity in the range small minority ethnic businesses in city centres. They of persons available for selection for appointments.” are often the launch pad for members of the ethnic It then says in subsection (2): minorities to go into law. With the loss of that launch pad, those people may not go into the legal profession, “This section is subject to section 63”, and they will not be available to take up judicial which stresses that the appointment appointments later. “must be solely on merit.” 895 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 896 Governance Bill Governance Bill That is meaningless window-dressing and tokenism. We the previous system inadequate and not delivering?”, need to get coming into the professions, from an early the answer is that it certainly was delivering. That is why stage, more people from ethnic minorities, more women, we must look at how much money it costs. and more people who are enthused by the idea of a Going back to the point made by my hon. Friend the career in the law, either as solicitors or as barristers. We Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr. Timpson), one will do that by widening access to those professions. of the problems with the JAC is that because it is so The chairman of the Bar Council feels incredibly strongly bureaucratic, incredibly cumbersome, very costly and about that, as do I. an empire that is growing the whole time, it is moving The JAC is incredibly bureaucratic, and it is growing very slowly. I have heard similar stories to him about in size. I think that its annual running costs are £8.5 million; judicial appointments that are not being filled. The JAC the Minister may well correct me, as he probably has the is not conducting its affairs as efficiently as it should be. figures directly to hand. That may not seem a vast The competitions for different types of judicial appointment amount of money. However, we should look at it in the are not being run as speedily or efficiently as they context of the changes that his Department is making should be. I have been round several combined courts to the legal aid budget, or the changes being made to over the past year or so, and I have had compelling the family law advocacy scheme, which has caused a stories put to me by presiding judges who are concerned huge amount of anger among barristers. The initiative about the speed at which these appointments are being to introduce best-value tendering for police station work made and the impact that that is having on their ability will have a significant impact on several smaller firms. to conduct justice and to deliver the services that Ministers Yet the savings that will be made through those changes rightly expect presiding judges to deliver in their combined to the legal aid budget involve sums that are sub-£10 courts. The JAC must look into that. million. That is why the £8.5 million cost of the JAC, an organisation that is doing work that cost virtually nothing before, is significant. 2.45 pm We realise that the JAC cannot be changed overnight, Mr. Wills: Can the hon. Gentleman remind the and if we win the next election we are not going to take Committee of the Conservative plans to increase the an axe to it. However, we could certainly make some legal aid budget? important initial changes and thereby reduce its cost and make it more efficient and streamlined. The Minister Mr. Bellingham: We have no plans to increase the talked about these constitutional reforms having to be amount of money for the legal aid budget. That budget more streamlined. Well, we have a good idea in our new is £2.1 billion, and we feel that far better value for clause; let us see the Government support it. money can be got from it. We feel strongly that we need Why do we want to put new clause 20 on to the to bear down on some of the drivers of costs, particularly statute book? The answer is simple. Sections 76 to 84 of the very high-cost cases, and that there is ample scope the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, which relate to the for bringing in new money to the legal aid budget from appointment of Lord Justices of Appeal, are unbelievably outside the MOJ. If the Minister is saying that he cumbersome and bureaucratic. Section 78(1) states: expects me to make a pledge to increase that expenditure, “The Lord Chancellor may make a request to the Commission he knows the answer to that, unfortunately, as well as I for a person to be selected for a recommendation for appointment do: whoever wins the next election, the Treasury will say as a Lord Justice of Appeal.” that there will be no increase to that £2.1 billion. I hope Subsection (2) says that the Lord Chancellor that when the economy improves there will be more “must consult the Lord Chief Justice”; money for legal aid, because the legal aid budget is a vital part of the welfare state. Access to justice is of course, he would have done that anyway. Section 79 something that all Conservative Members feel strongly states that about. “the Commission must appoint a selection panel” and says what the panel must do. It goes on to say that Jeremy Wright: In the context that my hon. Friend is the correctly describing, is it not all the more important to “selection panel is a committee of the Commission”. ensure that money already being spent within the legal system is being spent wisely, which is why we are interested Section 80 states that the “first member” of the panel in the specific workings of the JAC? “is the Lord Chief Justice”— well, he would have been anyway—“or his nominee.” Mr. Bellingham: If my hon. Friend asked me, “Is the Under section 81, the selection panel has to report and JAC working?”, I would say that it is not doing a bad “state who has been selected”. job. However, we should put our hands on our hearts For goodness’ sake, it would have done that anyway; it and think to ourselves that this is a time when this does not have to be specified in legislation. The report country’s public finances are in an horrendously vulnerable must state. The country will probably be spending about 10 per cent. of gross domestic product on the interest “contain any other information required by the Lord Chancellor.” on our national debt. Bearing in mind that the figure in Section 82 gives a number of options for the Lord 1976, when the then Chancellor went off to the IMF, Chancellor. That system is incredibly bureaucratic, was 9.5 per cent., we are moving into Argentine or ridiculously prescriptive, absurdly cumbersome, and very Guatemalan territory. That is why we must look at expensive. It requires a number of bureaucrats who are every single item of expenditure and ask ourselves, “Is putting together a huge amount of paperwork, looking this organisation doing a good job?” The answer is that at that legislation and having to pinpoint each particular it is not doing a bad job. If we ask, “Is it necessary? Was subsection. 897 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 898 Governance Bill Governance Bill Let me return to the Minister’s point about the New clause 22 is about written tests. I shall explain appointment of Lord Justices of Appeal. I agree that for hon. Members who may not know what they are they are excellent appointments, but they probably would that very often someone applying for a judicial appointment, have been made under the old system anyway. The key particularly a more minor one such as that of recorder, point is that all those appointments to the Court of district judge or county court judge, is asked to take a Appeal came from the High Court. I may be wrong written test. Those tests are extremely unpopular and about that; if so perhaps the Minister will correct me. incredibly controversial, and they are very public. Any High Court judge or senior judge is, in any event, In the past, top QCs, leading solicitors and academics— going to be someone who has gone through a major and patent or trademark attorneys, whom we should threshold in terms of his qualifying period in his career, not overlook because they can now qualify for judicial and there will have been intense oversight and analysis appointments—would make their application in confidence. of how he has done on the High Court bench. Of It was kept confidential, because it might well have been course, from time to time those High Court judges will turned down, and there is a certain amount of humiliation make judgments that are taken to the Court of Appeal. if a top QC or a managing partner of Allen & Overy So who better to analyse and assess the ability of those applies for an appointment on the High Court bench High Court judges as a possible Court of Appeal judge and is turned down. In the past, no one ever knew that than the Court of Appeal judges who, time and again, they had applied. Now, they have to take a written test are sitting in judgment, on appeal, on the judgments in a public place, and everyone knows that they have made by the High Court judges? We do not need a done it. bureaucratic system of appointments under the JAC to A large number of solicitors and leading QCs tell us appoint this particular type of judge. I put it to the that that is having an impact on their practice. They Minister that for the sake of obsession with the new obviously want to keep their clients in place and keep process and with constitutional reforms, a cumbersome their practice going, and they want to ensure that their operation is being put in place that is costing a great partners in their firms and the junior members of their deal and is totally unnecessary. chambers have confidence in them as senior QCs or Mr. Timpson: Does my hon. Friend agree that the managing partners. Yet when they apply for a judicial Minister should welcome new clauses 20 and 22, as they appointment, which in the past would have been kept would contribute to his stated aim of bringing about totally confidential, everyone hears that they have done the maintenance of good-quality, high-calibre candidates a test. I am less concerned about whether they fail the for the bench? They would provide a system that does test, because I am not saying that it is necessarily unfair, not have in-built delay, is efficient and brings candidates but it is completely unnecessary because it puts the fact as good as those that we have had in the past without of the application into the public domain. unnecessary costs. In the process, they would ensure Jeremy Wright: Given that the Government’s intention that more judges are sitting in the courts, hearing more in setting up the JAC was to encourage those who cases, and they would therefore reduce the cost of the would not otherwise come forward to seek judicial courts system. We could then use that money to ensure office, does my hon. Friend share my view that any that we continue the process of increasing access to obstacle to those potential applicants is to be regretted? justice for all those people who are currently denied it. Is it not at least possible that the written test is one of Mr. Bellingham: I thank my hon. Friend, who until those obstacles? his spectacular by-election victory was active in the Mr. Bellingham: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for courts day in, day out, as a family law barrister, appearing making that point, because it leads me on to a briefing before judges at different levels of the judiciary and that I have received from the Law Society. I was staggered developing an in-depth understanding of what was by what it said: going on. He is far better qualified than me, and probably “The written tests are proving to be an invaluable method of than the Minister, to tell the Committee what is happening. screening applicants. According to the JAC they are…a good I have a letter from a well known judge, who will, of indicator”. course, remain nameless. After we had a discussion the Of course the JAC would say that. It continued: other day, he wrote to me: “Another beneficial result of the use of written tests is that “There is an arrogance about the JAC which refuses to recognise more women, ethnic minority and solicitor candidates are progressing that the persons most able to judge are those before whom the through to interview and eventual appointment.” applicant appears on a regular basis. Instead the task is assigned to persons who have no experience whatsoever of this work. No I put it to the Law Society and my hon. Friend that private company would tolerate such a procedure.” most top QCs and senior solicitors are used to dealing He is right, because the people who are best able to with complex paperwork day in, day out. Most of them assess the ability of applicants to the Court of Appeal have top degrees from top universities, and they have are the judges before whom their decisions and judgments the self-confidence and ability to flourish in a written are assessed and appealed against. They know very well test. However, we are trying to encourage people to the ability of the applicants, and they are best placed to apply who are not as fortunate in their background but advise the Lord Chancellor. New clause 20 represents a have ample ability and may well be ideal people to be small step, and as part of our reforms of the JAC, we considered for a judicial appointment, and they may will consider a number of ideas, but it is an important well fall at that first hurdle. As he has said, that puts an first step to remove judges in the Court of Appeal from unnecessary obstacle in the way of such candidates and the JAC’s scope. I urge Ministers and other Members to may well put them off applying in the first place. support that modest proposal and thus reduce the costs I do not know whether the Minister has had a chance of that body. We have ideas for the future, but this is a to look at the JAC’s website or examine some of the modest first step forward. tests, but some of them are Alice in Wonderland scenarios. 899 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 900 Governance Bill Governance Bill We are asking senior people of his type of age, maturity anyone could point to a Court of Appeal judge in and ability to take a written test in which they have to England who was not of a high quality of intellect and devise some imaginary legislative scenario and then wisdom. Some perhaps occasionally made judicial mistakes work out cases based on it and deliberate upon them. that were overturned in the highest court, but I do not They are not law students; they are top QCs, barristers think it could be said that they had no reasons for and academics. The test is demeaning and completely their decisions or for putting their decisions in the way unnecessary, and I have not yet met a single person who they did. thinks it a good idea, apart from a few people on the The problem of how to choose our judges for the JAC and the Law Society, which appears to regurgitate higher courts all comes down to having a system that exactly what the JAC has said. If one speaks to any allows the best minds and the most wise to emerge. That barrister or anyone who has been through the test, they is what happens. In the High Court, or dealing with tier say that it is completely unnecessary. 1 work in the Crown court, it becomes clear over a Will the Minister tell the Committee what percentage period which judges are doing an impeccable job. That of the £8.5 million a year costs of the JAC go into the happens not only by word of mouth, but because of running the tests? It must be expensive to devise the decisions that go to appeal. Often when appeals are papers, put together the panels that write them, bring in upheld, the judgment of a particular judge—his outside consultants and expertise, book the halls where summing-up in a criminal case or his judgment in a the tests take place, supervise the tests and put in place High Court case—will be praised, and it will become the necessary security. It is an incredibly expensive and the law in due course as the higher courts adopt his bureaucratic exercise. The Minister talks about streamlining reasoning. Those legal minds and those people have the system and making it simpler and easier. We have an emerged in the past and continue to emerge. idea for him: get rid of those tests, which are completely unnecessary. Not only the lords justices of appeal sit in the Court It seems to me that the JAC has found itself in new, of Appeal and the divisional court, but High Court uncharted territory, and of course any new organisation judges sit there as flankers, helping the court as part of or commission will want to build an empire. The JAC is the court. Therefore, the lords justices of appeal get to building its own little empire and wants to embed it, see the High Court judges. They not only see their and what better way than to put in place something as decisions, but see them in action. The High Court bureaucratic as the written test procedure, which obviously judges give judgments in cases and are often very highly means more work for people and more jobs? regarded, particularly in specialist areas, so the idea that we need to have laymen in the JAC deciding who As I said to the Minister a moment ago, his budget is should be in the Court of Appeal is really a nonsense. under huge pressure. Looking at the Red Book and the The fact is that the people who should be there emerge roll-forward of the Ministry of Justice budget, we see through their talents, wisdom and intellect. That has that he will be looking for cuts across the piece. There always been the case, and we cannot point to a time will be substantial cost cuts in prisons, in the Courts when that did not happen. Service, maybe in legal aid, in the administration of the Legal Services Commission and in every other part of Why have we got the JAC? The commission has a the MOJ because of what the Treasury has done to his worthy role—I am not against the idea that we should Budget. Well, we are giving him a very good suggestion try to improve diversity—but I think merit should be for reducing costs. At the same time, we are proposing the first and foremost criterion. In relation to the debate the measures not just to reduce costs, but because we that my hon. Friend mentioned, my point was that it is want a better system for judicial appointments. On that all very well to have a two-track approach, but when it basis, I hope new clauses 20 and 22 will command the comes down to it, merit must be the greatest thing, support not only of Opposition Members, but of the because that will guarantee the rule of law and a system Minister and Labour Members. that holds water. Historically, it is true that the reason why we have a 3pm JAC is that Tony Blair, in the course of a reshuffle, Mr. Heald: May I start by talking about the quality decided he was going to abolish the Lord Chancellor. of judiciary that we want to attract in this country? We He wanted to do that not for any high and worthy have an honourable tradition and a high standard, reason—as far as one can tell—but because he had had which has been set by giants such as Lord Devlin, Lord enough of Lord Irvine. Lord Irvine says so, and I am Denning and Lord Reid. There is a history of legal sure that is the history. I thought it sad that our Prime figures who have commanded respect not only for their Minister made a decision for that reason without even wisdom, but for their great intellect, their ability to consulting the top judge in the country, Lord Woolf, interpret the law, and through the common law, their who was told five minutes before the press release went ability to make the law. out. It is said that his remark was, “What?” but that may be completely untrue. That proud tradition brings me to the point the Minister made when he intervened on my hon. Friend However, it is certainly the case that the concordat, the Member for North-West Norfolk (Mr. Bellingham). which is a very substantial document, had to be agreed He asked my hon. Friend whether he could criticise any between the Government and the Lord Chief Justice of the 12 appointments to the Court of Appeal. I would before the new approach—retaining a Lord Chancellor turn the question round to the Minister and ask him, but without many of the powers of before—was able to “Look, you are spending £8.5 million extra; can you go ahead. At that time, various things were done to criticise any of those who went before?” I think the replicate the traditional role of the Lord Chancellor, history of our appointment of judges, particularly at such as his role in appointing judges. One thing that that level, is a marvellous one. I do not think that came out of that was the JAC. 901 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 902 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Heald] Mr. Heald: The hon. Gentleman obviously has all the necessary trappings to become a judge, as he is asking The Conservatives did not oppose the setting up of who Dannii Minogue is—[Interruption.] Perhaps he the JAC, but we made two important points on prefers another member of the panel or perhaps he does the matter. First, we said that merit should be the not know what the panel is. main reason for appointing a person, and secondly, we It is a good idea, in some ways, to ensure that said that the higher courts should be treated slightly candidates have an appropriate level of knowledge. My differently. hon. Friend the Member for North-West Norfolk said If we look at what has been happening, we will see that the top barrister or solicitor who wants to be a some encouraging signs in the law. When I first qualified judge will be bound to know the basic information as a lawyer, I think about 25 per cent. of solicitors about how the legislature works and how to apply cases, were women; now the numbers coming through but if we are trying to widen the ambit for the lower university law courses are roughly equal, so we can see judicial appointments, it may be that having a written improvement on that. There are greater numbers of test that anyone can take will bring in a few more ethnic minority solicitors and barristers coming through. people. Does the Minister think that it is worth the cost The trend of ethnic minority solicitors setting up practices of what is potentially quite a bureaucratic exercise? that cater to particular communities and their needs has Historically, one would have said that the sort of people been beneficial and we have seen some role models who would be able to apply to become a judge—after come through. It has enabled some pioneers to set years of experience in the law—would not need to do a the way. written test. What is the aim of the test? Is it about With that in mind, and on the subject of diversity and modernity, or some basic level of knowledge? Is it about the role of the JAC, Lord Carter’s suggestion—it is now encouraging new applicants but ensuring that they can being implemented—of making solicitors’ firms larger read and write? so that they are more substantial entities that can undertake In summary, I have great sympathy for new clause 20 particular legal aid work, is not very helpful. The ethnic and will be interested to hear the Minister’s answers on minority senior partners whom I have met have criticised new clause 22. that. They make the point that it creates something of a glass ceiling. If senior partners in small firms that cater Mr. Heath: I listened carefully to the hon. Member to a particular community have to amalgamate with a for North-West Norfolk (Mr. Bellingham) and I heard larger firm, they will no longer be senior partners. Not much background history of the events that led to the allowing a member of an ethnic minority community Constitutional Reform Act 2005, but I did not hear a member to be the senior partner in a small firm creates convincing argument in favour of his new clauses. I will the glass ceiling, which worries me. address the issues that he raised, but I am not yet The other point that is worth mentioning is that, as convinced that I should advise my right hon. and hon. my hon. Friend said, the Bar Council has a very honourable Friends to support his new clauses—[Interruption.] It tradition of trying to widen access to the profession. is indeed sad that he was unable to persuade me, but Geoffrey Vos, whom my hon. Friend mentioned, made perhaps I can demonstrate the holes in his argument. that the keynote of his year’s chairmanship. Through I start from the basis that the constitutional reforms that period, he worked with a lot of schools and other to which the hon. Gentleman referred were, as he correctly institutions to encourage people from poorer backgrounds said, a hurried and, in many ways, botched job. I was to come into the law and encourage barristers’ part of the Committee that dealt with those legislative chambers to offer proper scholarships, so that individuals changes and it was clear that, to a large extent, they had had the money to train or undertake a pupillage. When been written on the back of an envelope and were not I started—I went from a state education to the Bar—we subject to prior consultation. Indeed, they appeared as had to find money from anywhere to survive during a complete surprise to most practitioners in the law, pupillage. I worked in an inner-city settlement in south who quickly had to respond to what was being proposed London. In fact, I got to know the hon. Member for and insist—properly—on certain conditions that were Eltham (Clive Efford) at that time—we used to run a eventually part of the protocol that was decided with youth football team together. However, it was not easy the Lord Chief Justice. to become a barrister in those days. What Geoffrey Vos and others have done has been a good thing for the legal Mr. Heald: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a world. combination of Lord Woolf and the Conservative and New clause 20 has a lot of merit, but I have mixed Liberal Democrat parties saved the day by improving feelings about whether the written tests are a good idea. the Constitutional Reform Act considerably and, in When they were first suggested, I worried that they Lord Woolf’s case, agreeing the concordat? Without would be about being a contemporary, modern kind of that, the changes would have been a disaster. judge. We all know the story of the judge who famously asked, “Who are the Beatles?” during a case years ago, 3.15 pm and there was the famous case in which a judge made an Mr. Heath: I agree entirely, and it showed good ill-judged remark about a soap star. I worried that the co-operation between the two ends of Parliament and tests would be very politically correct, but my understanding with the senior judiciary, who played an important role is that they have not been about knowing who is in “The in achieving a good outcome from inauspicious beginnings. X-Factor” or who Simon Cowell is, or who Dannii That is not to say that I object to the vast bulk of the Minogue is sitting next to— proposals as they ended up, because I felt that they were right. They were changes that many of us had advocated David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD): Who? for some time, but their genesis was more predicated—as 903 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 904 Governance Bill Governance Bill the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk said—on the Mr. Heald: Does the hon. Gentleman think there needs of political management than on the need for would be any difficulties with a system in which the reform in good order. Lord Chancellor asks the Lord Chief Justice for the We now have these proposed changes to the proposals runners and riders for the Court of Appeal and produces that were agreed then. I intervened on the hon. Gentleman a shortlist? Would that produce a different list? If so, why? to ask him why he felt that it was so important to remove the Judicial Appointments Commission process Mr. Heath: In the case of the current Lord Chancellor for the lords justices of appeal but to leave it in place for and Lord Chief Justice, the difference would probably the other appointments, such as the Lord Chief Justice, not be very great. However, the hon. Gentleman knows the Heads of Division, the puisne judges and other his history, and he knows that the history of judicial office holders. I am not sure that I received a convincing appointments has not always been a good one. He answer. The argument was that the lords justices of knows that, in the past, some Lords Chancellor have appeal are senior judges, so the process was less appropriate. blatantly abused their position in respect of judicial I would have thought that the Lord Chief Justice and appointments. He might recall Lord Halsbury, who had Heads of Division were also fairly senior members of a fearsome reputation for advancing the careers of the judiciary, and if the argument held for one it would those who shared his friendship or political persuasion. hold for the other. However, apparently that is not the There are many other examples. case. The House should identify with—and it has done so The principal argument seemed to be that the process in the process proposed in the Bill—a system that was bureaucratic, long and less than efficacious. I do moves us away from the old-school club, from the magic not think there is any evidence that the latter is the case. circle and from decisions made between chums in fine There has been no serious objection to those who have dining rooms about who to put forward. That touches been appointed lords justices of appeal since the process on one of my great criticisms of new clause 22: it does has been in place, nor has there been any criticism of not propose an alternative process for the appointment their performance. So that is not a justified complaint. of Court of Appeal judges; the suggestion is simply that they will “emerge”—I have heard that expression used In terms of the length of the process, the hon. Gentleman several times in this debate. Well, we know what emerges made great play of what the Constitutional Reform Act from such a process: people who are male, who are says. It is a fact that when any sort of process is set out educated in certain institutions, who share a commonality in statutory form, it necessarily sounds more complicated of background, but who do not necessarily represent than it actually is. That is how the law works and how those with the greatest merit for judicial appointments statutes look. In fact, it is a very simple process. The and who certainly do not represent the diversity that is Lord Chancellor requests the JAC to fill a vacancy. The beginning to develop, quite rightly, among the judicial, JAC appoints a selection panel, which submits a report and indeed lawyer, populations in this country. to the Lord Chancellor about the person it has chosen, and the Lord Chancellor may reject the selection, require The hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire it to be reconsidered or accept it. Of course, once he has (Mr. Heald) makes an important point about how the exhausted the other options, he must accept the JAC’s situation has now developed—he applauded it, and I decision. That is not a difficult process. It is the sort of know he is genuine. However, he cannot then have a process that any appointment procedure, other than the process that, at the end of the day, depends on who most archaic or rudimentary, would follow. It is a someone knows, rather than on a proper, transparent simple system of setting up a shortlisting process and appointment process. then accepting the recommendation of the shortlisting committee in due course. I do not accept that it is an Mr. Heald: It is one thing to hark back to the Victorian unnecessarily prolonged process. period, but the ladies justices of appeal, who have been so successful in recent years, were all appointed under the old system. Mr. Timpson: Why does the hon. Gentleman think that the Joint Committee came to the position that the JAC was being criticised for inefficiencies and delays in Mr. Heath: But not enough of them. And look at the the judicial appointments process? Supreme Court—there are not enough there! We cannot hold up the current population in the higher levels of the judiciary and say that it reflects modern Britain. Mr. Heath: Obviously, a process, however simple, can However, it is not because of a paucity of candidates be delayed in its execution. It might well be that those that we cannot address that situation, which is why I criticisms were entirely justified, and if so, I hope the think it is important to have the judicial appointments JAC takes them into account and addresses the cause of system as it currently is. the delay. I hope, too, that the Ministry of Justice is equally engaged in the process. However, I do not think I agree with the Law Society, which rejects the proposal that we can criticise a process for delay if the cause of from the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk. It says: the delay is not inherent in the process. That seems to be “The fear must be that there would be a reversion to the old the crux of the argument. The hon. Member for Crewe system of secret soundings and appointment by the Lord Chancellor. and Nantwich (Mr. Timpson) might have a justifiable That would be a wholly retrograde step.” complaint—I do not have the information to agree or I, too, believe that it would be. I am surprised that the disagree with him—but I do not see that the cause of proposal has been put forward, not just because it is so the delay is inherent in the process set out in statute. partial—it would abolish the process for only one class There should be no substantial delay other than that of judicial appointment—but because of the effect that necessary to do a good job in appointments. it would have in terms of reversion. 905 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 906 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Heath] when what emerged was the same old type of person, who conformed in every way to the same old image of a On the written test, I am clear that there might be judge. That is exactly what this House has been trying arguments on both sides. Criticisms have been voiced in to avoid in the legislation that it has put in place over legal circles about the tests, although some of them recent years. sound rather precious—as if there is some indignity involved in taking part in a proper appointments process. 3.30 pm Senior appointments in other fields involving written Mr. Wills: May I start by welcoming you to the Chair, tests, or something similar—presentations and so on—are Mrs. Anderson? You have assumed it since we began made every day of the week. Nobody else sees it as an this debate, and although that might seem like a long affront to their dignity to apply for a job and go time ago, I would still like to take this opportunity to through a proper selection process. Nobody else, whether welcome you to it. a head of human resources or of a finance department, I congratulate the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk when they apply for a job as a chief executive, feels it an (Mr. Bellingham) on his marathon tour of the horizon, indignity to be known to be applying for a job and as I think the translation goes. He ranged very widely going through a selection process that might involve indeed. I congratulate him in particular on his tests of some kind. accomplishment of spending 30 minutes advocating Mr. Bellingham: Ministers don’t! what he described as a modest step. If I take it rightly, the reason he spent so much time on it is that he was Mr. Heath: There is an awful lot wrong with ministerial treating the issue as a microcosm of what he and some appointments, but let us not divert ourselves by discussing of his colleagues who intervened on him see as wrong what is wrong with those. The hon. Gentleman might with the Government’s constitutional reforms. He was well be right—but there we are! right to treat the issue as a microcosm of different In any case, the sort of person who will be put off by attitudes towards constitutional reform, because his the process is the sort of person whom I am not sure I approach, as seen in his colleagues’ interventions on want as a judge, because it suggests that they have such him too, reflects precisely the problems with the high regard for their own dignity that they perhaps Conservatives’ approach to constitutional reforms: a could not do the job as I, and many others—I think—would mistrust of the British people, a mistrust of change and want them to do it. I note again the partiality of the new a misunderstanding of the consequences of their own clause. In this case, it deals only with the selection advocacy. procedure for puisne judges, and not other selections The hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Jeremy that the JAC makes. They alone would not have the Wright), who has now wafted off somewhere— written test. [Interruption.] No, he is still here, on the Front Bench. There is another point here, and it is the exact opposite He said that he thought that the issue was a microcosm of what the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk said. of how the Government did not know where we were He argued, I think, that the written tests will present an going. He is wrong, because we know precisely where obstacle to diversity in the appointment of judges. That we are going in all the areas covered by new clauses 20 is the reverse, of course, of what the Law Society thinks. and 22. What lies at the heart of the arrangements that It says that they will be an assistance, and I think that the new clauses seek to alter is the principle of the they probably will be too. They will be an assistance to separation of powers and the independence of the people who do not fit what has been—and I hope is no judiciary from the Government, which is fundamental. longer—the conventional view of what a judge ought to The hon. Gentleman may not recognise those principles; look like, because they provide an objective way for he may not think them important. But we recognise candidates to demonstrate that, whatever the preconceptions them and we think that they are fundamental to the of those making the appointment, they have the technical health of our constitution. They are particularly important ability, the level of judgment and the facility to perform now, in what many commentators have described as a in the way required of a judicial appointment. There is constitutional crisis. People have lost trust in the processes clear evidence that that process is helping well qualified, of their democracy, including those in this House, and able and meritorious candidates to make progress in in Members of this House. We know that, and every this area when otherwise they would not. Member knows that we have to change that. But does that mean that the procedures cannot be One of the key things, as we take forward a programme improved? I am sure that if I had the ability, I could of constitutional reform that all parts of the House look at the written tests and see areas where they could recognise has to be undertaken, is that power should be improved. Indeed, it would be remarkable if they never be concentrated in one place. The best protection could not be. However, I cannot see it as an affront to a against the arbitrary or absolute use of power is the well qualified barrister to ask them to go through a separation of powers—in other words, the diffusion of simple process before appointment or candidacy as a powers. judge. I do not see engaging in such a process as below Mr. Heald: Is not the fault in the Minister’s thinking their self-esteem; indeed, for some candidates it is a the fact that, in Britain, that has never been our way of benefit and helps to assess people who might otherwise doing things? In Britain, all the power in the country is not be considered as suitable for judicial appointment. focused in the Cabinet, where we had the Lord Chancellor, On the basis of both those arguments, I am not a judge who spoke up for the judiciary, the Leader of persuaded by the case put forward by the hon. Member the House, who spoke up for the Back Bencher, and the for North-West Norfolk. I fear that he seeks to take us Attorney-General, who spoke up for the legal profession. backwards, to an era when the magic circle did everything, That is an odd way of doing things, but it was our way, when everything was decided by nudges and winks, and and now the Minister has broken it. 907 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 908 Governance Bill Governance Bill Mr. Wills: With all respect for the hon. Gentleman, start and that they have no idea how to finish. The his understanding of our constitutional history is flawed. Minister cannot possibly argue that the independence He is right that in this country we have always evolved, of the judiciary was weak before these reforms and is rather than had revolutions, although there have been stronger now. The judiciary challenged Executives of great disjunctions in our political history—far more both political colours in a robust way well before the than we perhaps realise—and there has been a certain Judicial Appointments Commission was thought of. fuzzy logic about our arrangements. Nevertheless, there has always been a logic. Montesquieu, the great proponent Mr. Wills: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for of the separation of powers, took his inspiration from that intervention, because I was about to come to the way this country operated. I am proud to say that precisely that point. I would just say that clichés are not this country has always followed the principle that really a maxim for constitutional reform, but I shall healthy societies are democracies in which power is rephrase that, and say that we should not approach diffused as widely as possible. All parts of the House constitutional reform in this country as engineers with a can agree on that. blueprint into which everything has to be shoehorned. If that is what he is saying, I agree with him. He is That is fundamental, and it is precisely the area at nodding. We should approach it as physicians, healing which the measures that the proposed new clauses would what needs to be healed and encouraging preventive overturn are directed—that is, the independence of the medicine. We need to be fit, and constantly to respond judiciary. It is profoundly important that we do nothing to the needs of the people we serve. to harm that principle and that, as far as possible, we pursue the principle of the separation of powers. It is The gist of the arguments in favour of the new important not only that powers should be separated in clauses is that the system was good before, so let’s not practice, but crucially that they are perceived and believed change it. I agree with the point made by the hon. to be so by the people we all serve. Members for North-West Norfolk, for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) and for Rugby and Kenilworth Mr. Heald: I agree with the Minister that there are that our judiciary has comprised many individuals of elements of separated powers in Britain, because each surpassing excellence. The hon. Member for North-East of the institutions has fought for its rights. The judges Hertfordshire listed many luminaries of the bench, and fought for theirs, Parliament fought for its right over the we look back on their judgments and see their wisdom, King, and so on. However, the compromise was that we their command of the law and the way in which they had to have representatives of all the main interests developed the common law. Of course, no one could right at the heart of power, at the Cabinet table, because possibly be anything other than full of admiration for the Executive are not separate from our Parliament. the work that they have done over decades and generations. The Government fell into error by breaking the role of The hon. Gentleman is right about that. So, too, is the the Lord Chancellor, and that is why we have to have a hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) massive concordat and a great big Bill to deal with this. when he says that we should not be complacent about I still worry that Ministers do not understand that we these things, however. Just because we have a list of do not have a true separation of powers, as they do in luminaries, that does not mean that the system is perfect. America; that is not our system. Of course it is not, and we should always strive to do better. That is my response to the hon. Member for Mr. Wills: Of course the hon. Gentleman is right. We Rugby and Kenilworth. The fact that the system was do not have a written constitution in which these things good does not mean that it cannot be better. are formally codified, although we have elements of I urge hon. Members to focus on this point: the codification in our constitution. He is right to say that system should not only work but be seen and believed this is a complex issue. Inevitably, the patterns shift over to work in accordance with the fundamental principles time. The courts arrogate powers to themselves, for of the British people. We have to give the British people example, and Parliament tries to get power back from confidence in the system. It is not enough that the hon. the Executive. Under this Government, the Executive Member for North-East Hertfordshire thinks that those are giving power away to Parliament. This is a constant judges have been brilliant; the people we serve have to process that ebbs and flows and, in among the inevitable believe it as well. conflicts and tensions that arise, I believe that we have a healthy democracy. We have to prove that in the months David Howarth: May I support the Minister even and years ahead. We have to reinvent our democracy for further? It is clear to those who have studied the judiciary ourselves collectively, and we must ensure that the people over long periods that the quality of judicial appointments we serve know that that is what we are here to do. under the old system was highly dependent on the quality of the Lord Chancellor of the day. There were We broadly agree that, as we do not have a written some immensely good Lord Chancellors, but, to be constitution, these matters are flexible. However, the frank, others were not so good. goal of diffusing power as widely as possible and, in this context, maintaining the robust independence of the Mr. Wills: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman who, judiciary is fundamentally important to the liberties of as always, brings a great deal of learning and knowledge the British people. to our proceedings. He is right. We have to be clear about the purpose of new clause 20: it is to return to the Jeremy Wright: Is not the central thesis of the argument old system. Various points are made about the role of put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East the Judicial Appointments Commission, but even in its Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) that if it ain’t broke, don’t fix own terms—and the terms of the argument made by it? The problem here is that the Government have the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk—the provision embarked on a programme of constitutional reform is flawed. The hon. Gentleman quoted a letter from an with regard to the judiciary that they did not need to anonymous judge, although I am not quite sure whether 909 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 910 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Wills] bearing in mind that some recent selection processes had up to 1,000 candidates applying. We need a sifting this was a High Court judge. The hon. Gentleman does process to deal with that. As to the comments about not want to clarify that, so let us call him the anonymous costs and all the rest of it, I ask hon. Members to reflect judge of whatever level. He said that these appointments on how they would carry out the sift. Having a personal would be made by people with no experience of these system of interviews is likely, as a first sift, to be matters, so let me remind the hon. Gentleman what considerably more expensive than a written test. Every happened before our reforms were put in place—the business has to do this and the civil service adopts position to which he wants to return—and what similar processes for its fast-stream. happens now. The key point is that I am deliberately not going to Previously, these judges were appointed by the Queen— comment on the efficacy of the written tests. I invite that remains—on the recommendation of the Prime hon. Members to reflect on it for themselves. The Minister. According to our anonymous judge, the Prime reason I am not going to do that is that doing so would Minister presumably has no experience relating to the be another instance of the Executive trampling into people being appointed. The advice of the Lord Chancellor terrain that should properly be the preserve of the was also relevant, and he may well have had some independent Judicial Appointments Commission. experience before the reforms. The Lord Chancellor On Second Reading of the Constitutional Reform consulted the various heads of division; that was the Bill, the Lord Chancellor said: role—they were consulted, and that was it. What happens now is that the Lord Chief Justice takes part in the “I will ensure that the definition of merit should be for the commission itself and not for Ministers.”—[Official Report, House proceedings and the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 of Lords, 8 March 2004; Vol. 658, c. 984.] establishes the selection panel—this is what the new clause would abolish—chaired by the Lord Chief Justice The Act went on to recognise that, and the importance who I think all Conservative Members would accept of the JAC and the judiciary, by providing that the JAC has had day-to-day experience throughout his working should determine its own selection processes. That is life. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for North-West right and proper. That is our position, too. The JAC Norfolk might want to listen to this, as he seemed to should determine its own processes. There are arguments have forgotten it in his remarks. for and against, which we could have until 7 o’clock, but I do not intend to do so. As I say, the Lord Chief Justice chairs the selection panel, so I assume that the anonymous judge whom the When I began my remarks, I referred to the traditional hon. Gentleman quoted would be content with that. Conservative attitude towards constitutional reform. The Lord Chief Justice or his nominee chooses another There is another tradition of Conservatism, which I judge—again, I hope our anonymous judge would be invite the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk to happy with that—and another lay member of the JAC. discover: the tradition of progressive Conservatism of This system therefore puts two judges, with all the Disraeli and Lord Randolph Churchill. They would experience that the hon. Gentleman wanted to see deployed never have pressed such a new clause, so I invite the in the appointment of lords justices of appeal, in the hon. Gentleman to rediscover that tradition and withdraw driving seat in the selection of those judges. That is his new clause. precisely what the new clause would remove. Even in terms of the hon. Gentleman’s own argument, it does Mr. Bellingham: I will be brief. The Minister has been not fly. his normal charming self. I do not agree with everything he said, but I listened carefully to his comments on our There are enormous benefits from having the Judicial new clause 20, and to the compelling points of the hon. Appointments Commission, but the hon. Member for Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath). Although Crewe and Nantwich (Mr. Timpson) has made various we in no way resile from the arguments we put forward, complaints about it. I would like to reinforce what the I accept what the Minister has said. On that basis, I will hon. Member for Somerton and Frome said to him not press new clause 20, but I would nevertheless like to when he pointed out that the fact that a system may not put new clause 22 to the vote at the appropriate stage. work perfectly does not mean that we have to ditch the whole system; we simply have to improve it. We have to I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause. decide first whether the system we have is better than Clause, by leave, withdrawn. the one we had before—and I think that it is, unarguably. It is unarguably better because it ensures greater levels of independence and transparency in the appointment New Clause 21 process. I do not understand, particularly nowadays, how anyone—even those on the Conservative Benches—can argue against having greater independence and transparency CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE SUPREME COURT in an appointments process. ‘(1) The Constitutional Reform Act 2005 is amended as To clarify, the JAC appoints candidates solely on follows. merit, so the various innuendos we heard floating around (2) Omit section 48. that judges were appointed on criteria other than merit are not right. This system works and continues to work (3) Omit subsection (2) of section 49. well; of course it can work better; that is what we all (4) In subsection (1) of section 51, for “chief executive” want it to do. substitute “President”. I could go through various arguments for and against (5) In subsection (1) of section 54, for “chief executive” the written tests. As hon. Members have said, there are substitute “President”.’.—(Mr. Bellingham.) arguments both for and against them, but it is worth Brought up, and read the First time. 911 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 912 Governance Bill Governance Bill 3.45 pm Mr. Wills: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but is he absolutely confident that he is comparing like Mr. Bellingham: I beg to move, That the clause be with like? I think it important for the Committee to read a Second time. know the answer to that question. New clause 21 relates to the Supreme Court. Again, I declare an interest as a barrister. The background to the Mr. Bellingham: I am certainly confident that I am establishment of the new Supreme Court was due entirely comparing like with like. The actual costs of running to the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, the relevant the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords amounted section of which made it clear that the Supreme Court to £600,000. would be set up. Section 48 refers to appointing a chief Mr. Wills: I am sorry to intervene on the hon. Gentleman executive. again, but I want to be absolutely clear about this. He This reform was part of a wider package, which we knows for a fact, does he, that the costs have escalated discussed in detail on earlier new clauses, and I do not twentyfold as a result of the move from the House of want to repeat those discussions. It is worth pointing Lords? out, however, that the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords—the Law Lords, as they were known—did a Mr. Bellingham: Yes—the actual administrative costs: first-class job. No one complained that they were not the running costs. As Hansard shows, in 2005 the Minister doing a good job. No one complained that their location replying to the debate in the House of Lords agreed that in any way inhibited or restricted their professionalism the actual costs amounted to £600,000. Obviously the or their work. They started off, many years ago, in the costs of the salaries and pensions of the Law Lords main Chamber of the House of Lords, but as pressure were additional to that. The original figure given for the on business increased they were exiled to a Committee running costs of the Supreme Court back in July was room on Committee corridor. £12.3 million, to which must be added the salaries and pensions of the Law Lords. Between July and September, that figure rose to £13.5 million. May I ask the Minister The Temporary Chairman (Janet Anderson):Order.I who is in charge of these costs? Who is controlling remind the hon. Gentleman that we are discussing them? whether to have a chief executive of the Supreme Court. I would be grateful if he restricted his remarks to that. Six full-time staff serviced the Law Lords, and I think that they did a very good job in looking after their interests. There are 39 people in the new Supreme Mr. Bellingham: I will come on to that quickly, and I Court. The other day I tabled a parliamentary question am grateful to you, Mrs. Anderson, for that reminder. asking Obviously, it is difficult to explain what the chief executive “how many employees of the new Supreme Court earn more than is about without looking at what the chief executive (a) £50,000, (b) £75,000 and (c) £100,000 a year.” does, which is preside over the Supreme Court on which The reply was as follows: the former Law Lords are judges. “The Supreme Court has 39 employees. Of those 39 employees, Although one might well have taken the view that it four earn between £50,000 and £75,000, one earns between £75,000 was quaint, quirky, anachronistic and so on to have and £100,000, and one earns more than £100,000.”—[Official Law Lords sitting in a small Committee room, the Report, 2 November 2009; Vol. 498, c. 747W.] arrangement worked very well. However, it was decided The employee who earns more than £100,000 is the that they should be moved across to the new Supreme chief executive. Court. Obviously, that decision was taken at a time I take on board what the Minister has said about the when the economy was booming, and no one worried separation of powers, but I disagree with it profoundly. too much about the costs. The original estimated cost I have always taken the view that we do not have an was £30 million, which then went up. As we know, the American-style separation of powers in this country. ultimate capital cost of the Supreme Court came in at Our judiciary has always been entwined with the legislature: £58.9 million: a vast amount of money to locate those that is one of the great strengths that our constitution judges in a new building when they had a perfectly good has had for many years. Do we really need 39 employees place to sit already. I believe that only one Law Lord to run the Supreme Court in that fantastic building agreed, and publicly stated, that it was a good idea to across the way? Do we really need a chief executive who move across to the Supreme Court. The other Law is paid a salary of more than £100,000? Perhaps it is Lords were all opposed to the move. They felt that the £140,000; I do not know. Certainly it is far more than existing arrangements worked extremely well. the Minister earns. Why do we need a chief executive? I will not dwell on the capital costs, however, because The new clause seeks to make a start—a small start—on I want to consider the current costs of running the new reducing the costs of the Supreme Court. I do not think Supreme Court. Let us consider the previous arrangements that there is any justification for increasing the number that were in place in the House of Lords. Of course, it is of staff from six to 39, or for appointing a chief executive. difficult to work out exactly what the costs were, but the What will the chief executive do? What will the director cost of the Clerks, the Librarian and the other officials of finance do? What will the director of communications who serviced the Law Lords amounted to roughly £600,000. and the other directors do? Why cannot the Supreme That was not a huge sum, and I think that it represented Court be run with a senior Clerk, perhaps a few caretakers very good value for money. Back in July it was announced and a couple of librarians? Let us get the cost down to a in a written parliamentary answer that the running sensible level. costs of the new Supreme Court would be £12.3 million. As the Minister well knows, the Conservatives would That is a pretty staggering figure compared with £600,000. not have gone down the Supreme Court route. On the The new chief executive, who is the subject of new other hand, we are pragmatic politicians. We are not clause 21 — going to simply scrap the arrangement and spend a lot 913 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 914 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Bellingham] who is responsible at present for the staffing levels the hon. Gentleman has described and for the salary enjoyed of money on reversing these changes. What we do want by the chief executive. At present, the whole shebang is to do, if we win the election, is ensure that the court nothing to do with the president, other than in a consultative works more efficiently and gives better value for money. capacity. It is all down to the Lord High Chancellor, We do not believe that a cost of more than £13.5 million, who has made his decisions about the proposals. and probably rising, represents good value for money. I thought the hon. Gentleman would express support for the ongoing process of separating out the legislature David Howarth: I am now a little concerned by the and the Executive from the courts by giving the courts hon. Gentleman’s argument, because it seems to me proper responsibility for running their own affairs in that it means that, whatever the current tasks of the this discrete aspect. I have heard the arguments, however, chief executive, under the new clause those tasks will be and I now understand that he wants to do exactly the transferred to the president of the court. Has the hon. opposite. He wants this House to interfere with the Gentleman made any estimate of the increase in the running of the Supreme Court and its president to president’s work load arising from his proposal, or is he undertake a new raft of functions that involve making assuming there would be none? sure the lights are switched off and the boiler is mended. Mr. Bellingham: The hon. Gentleman is a distinguished I am not sure that that is a sensible use of the time of academic and we have debated such issues many times. the president of the Supreme Court of the United He will remember that when he and I started out on our Kingdom. The hon. Member for North-West Norfolk legal careers, judges ran their own courts. Long before believes that it is, but his argument in favour is based on Her Majesty’s Courts Service—employing 20,000-plus costs that sounded rather speculative to me. He cited people—judges ran their courts, and they exercised some figures—I shall be interested in what the Minister control of all aspects of their administration. Those has to say about those—but the comparison being judges would run large combined courts, employing made did not seem to be exactly like for like; I did not substantial numbers of people and manage a very complex note, for example, any property costs in terms of housing case load—and they would also manage large numbers the Law Lords in the House of Lords. That apparently of litigants, solicitors and barristers who came before costs nothing at all and is, thus, not to be used as a the court on a daily basis. comparator, and I suspect that some of the hon. On the Supreme Court, I entirely accept what the Gentleman’s other arguments are not entirely accurate. hon. Gentleman says. We do not want its president to be bogged down with a huge amount of administration 4pm and a lot of minor detail. That is why he needs to have a However, the hon. Gentleman has a point, in that staff, but does he need a staff of 39, and does he need a having the building across the road and running two chief executive? I suggest that this modest proposal of buildings, rather than one, entails an increased cost. I removing the post of chief executive would be a very think that that cost is justified. I was one of those who good start, because it would send a signal to the Supreme always argued for a supreme court and who always Court that it must deliver value for money and be run argued that it was an extraordinary anomaly that the efficiently. Law Lords sat within our legislature, thus making it Furthermore, let us take another look at the Department’s very difficult for us to defend our position compared budget, which is under immense pressure. There are with most modern political and judicial systems. I was court buildings that need to be repaired, the legal aid one of the first to suggest the Middlesex Guildhall as a budget is in crisis, there is a crisis over access to justice, suitable venue—[Interruption.] Yes, it was my fault; I law centres and advice centres are closing by the dozen, accept responsibility. I thought it was a good building legal aid deserts are appearing, and young lawyers are to put the Supreme Court in and, having seen it, I forsaking publicly funded work, and all because tiny remain of that view. With the exception of the carpets, amounts of money are being taken out of the legal aid it is a marvellous adaptation of a very suitable building budget. Yet here we are looking at the running costs of for its purpose. the ultimate appeal court in the land going up from Mr. Bellingham rose— about £600,000 to almost £14 million, employing a chief executive on a very large salary in a post that my Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene party thinks is superfluous to requirements. The new on the subject of carpets. clause has been proposed in the spirit of trying to get better value for money and making sure that the delivery Mr. Bellingham: The hon. Gentleman obviously never of justice in this country is more streamlined and efficient— appeared before a Crown court judge in that building which is exactly what the Minister said that he wants too. when it was a Crown court. It was a lugubrious, grotty building then, but I agree that the work has been done Mr. Heath: I was expecting a totally different argument to a very high standard, and the architects need from the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk congratulating. Obviously, as £60 million has been spent, (Mr. Bellingham). I thought he was going to present an one would expect a Rolls-Royce building, and that is argument with which I have a degree of sympathy. what we have got. Indeed, given the words on the amendment paper, I can still make his new clause fit my aspirations—but for the Mr. Heath: We have got an excellent building. Those wrong reasons, it would appear. I thought he was trying who represent the top of this country’s judicial processes to make sure that the role of the chief executive and the deserve an appropriate building. Far from being lugubrious, running of the Supreme Court were transferred solely I suspect that it is now a rather good place to work. It to the authority of the president of the Supreme Court, has retained the best features of the Middlesex Guildhall thus cutting out the middleman, the Lord High Chancellor, intact; I am particularly pleased that the building contains 915 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 916 Governance Bill Governance Bill a very prominent portrait—there might be two in the been given by the hon. Member for Somerton and building—of John Fielding of Somersetshire, who did Frome (Mr. Heath). There is no like-for-like comparison so much to establish our modern judiciary and the role that we have been able to find. of modern courts. If the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk can I am a great supporter of the Supreme Court and of produce such a comparison for me, line by line, in a way how it has developed. Should it be for the Lord Chancellor that a chartered accountant would recognise, I would be now to have any involvement in the day-to-day running happy to consider it and, if we can find savings, I would of that court? My answer to that is no. However, be happy to make them on that basis. However, the although I thought that I could have couched the hon. increase in the number of staff, for example, includes Gentleman’s new clause in more felicitous terms, it security, the library and catering, all of which were would achieve a result that I could support. That leaves previously provided by the House of Lords infrastructure. me in a great dilemma were he to call a Division, There was no space to expand, even though sometimes because were I to support him it would be for reasons it was needed. It is very difficult. Anyone who has tried almost diametrically opposed to those for which he to find out the true cost of catering in the Houses of believes his proposal is necessary. I would be tainted by Parliament runs up against the same problems of how association with his arguments and I do not want that, we cost the building and its running costs. There are all nor do I want my hon. and right hon. Friends to be so kinds of intricacies that I have never been able to get to tainted. the bottom of. If he can, and if he can produce genuine I hope that the Minister will advance such a strong like-for-like comparisons between the two buildings, I argument in rebuttal that the hon. Gentleman will will happily look at them. withdraw his new clause. I also hope that on another occasion we will look at properly strengthening the role Mr. Bellingham: The Minister has challenged me, and of the president of the Supreme Court, not by making I shall investigate this fully, but surely the point is that him empty the dustbins, but by allowing him to appoint the Law Lords shared our security, which was in place his own staff. He should make the dispositions on anyway to protect the many thousands of people who staffing and any other arrangements of the Supreme use this Palace, and our facilities. One would often see Court that he thinks best, rather than come back to the Law Lords going down to the Terrace cafeteria for a Lord Chancellor to ask for permission. I would support snack. The cost was obviously heavily subsidised, because amendments along those lines, because having set up they were one—or 12—of a large number of people this new body, with which we should be very pleased, using the facilities. Now they have their own dedicated now is the time for the Lord Chancellor to let go. facilities, and of course it costs much more. That takes us back to the debates that we had earlier Mr. Wills: When I say like for like, I know that the this afternoon and the reluctance, it would seem, of the running costs are not exactly the same and that of Executive entirely to let go of matters that are within course there will be savings in both cases. The Supreme their power. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell Court is a new building and will almost certainly be far us that in the long term that is precisely what the more energy-efficient than this building. Of course, Government intend to do. capital costs go into that and they have to be amortised over a certain period of time. These calculations are Mr. Wills: Again, we have had a very interesting highly complex but for a relatively small institution the debate. The hon. Member for North-West Norfolk difference in the running costs—it is just a matter of (Mr. Bellingham) is an adornment to this House, and I common sense—is unlikely to be that great. There hope that he will preserve that status by withdrawing would be savings in some areas if it were to remain here this amendment. and savings in others if it were transferred to a more I shall set out my reasons. The hon. Gentleman quite modern building with all the efficiencies that come with rightly raises the point that all public institutions have such buildings, as compared with largely unrefurbished to be efficient and cost-effective, and they do, but he has great historic buildings, such as this one, where it is a to be careful that he does not take Oscar Wilde’s definition patch and mend job all the time. I urge the hon. Gentleman of modern people as people who know the value of to use some common sense, because the actual differences nothing and the price of everything and attach it to the are unlikely to be very significant. modern Conservative party. Mr. Timpson: I take the Minister’s point about the These institutions have great value and tribute has been Supreme Court’s being the apex of our judicial system, paid to the building. This is the apex of our judicial but most members of the public who have to access our system and one of the cornerstones of our constitution. judicial system tend to do so at the lower end—in the No one would have said that the Palace of Westminster magistrates courts and family proceedings courts. When should never have been built with its wonderful decoration. they see their magistrates courts in a poor state of It is a Palace of Westminster that belongs to the British repair and, on occasions, see them closing, it makes it people in the same way, ultimately, as the Supreme even more important that the cost of the Supreme Court does. However, the hon. Gentleman is quite right Court—every penny—is justified. When we hear sums to raise the question of cost-effectiveness, although, of for running costs in the region of £13 million, compared course, public institutions never waste money. with what it would cost to run a local magistrates court, My problem is that it is very difficult to compare it is important that that case is made clearly and forensically. costs. I intervened on the hon. Gentleman and, perhaps I suspect that that is the point that my hon. Friend the rashly, he insisted that he was comparing like with like. I Member for North-West Norfolk (Mr. Bellingham) is ask him to think again. It is very difficult to make trying to make, to ensure that we are getting value for reliable comparisons for exactly the reason that has money. 917 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 918 Governance Bill Governance Bill Mr. Wills: Of course we must get value for money, again I hope that everyone accepts that, if there is to be which is exactly what I said. As I shall describe in a a chief executive, that is the correct way for the arrangement moment, that is one of the functions of the chief to operate. executive. The new clause would increase substantially the time The Supreme Court has been established in a proper that the President of the Supreme Court must spend and effective way, with the staff that it needs to discharge managing the non-judicial aspects of the court’s functions, its essential function in our constitution. All the rest of thereby reducing the time that this individual—ex officio, the judicial system depends on it, as the hon. Member they will be talented, skilled and experienced—has to for North-West Norfolk well knows. It is not a question spend on the crucial judicial work that is the court’s of either/or: we continue to invest in the court service, core role. and it is well known that magistrates courts close for The new clause also would undermine the very whole complexes of reasons. The needs of the justice independence that the Supreme Court was founded on. system change, and that is a key reason why magistrates I believe that it is very important that we have a Supreme courts change. Magistrates courts are not having to Court, and that its independence is protected. In the close because of the establishment of the Supreme first Constitutional Affairs Committee report of the Court, but of course there has to be value for money. 2003-04 Session, the Law Lords made it clear that they If the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk can unanimously regarded it as essential that the court justify his claim that costs have increased twentyfold, of enjoyed corporate independence. They said that course I will look at it, but I confidently assure him that “the independence of the judges requires not only that they be they have not. The equation is complex, and I do not free of extraneous pressure but also that the court be institutionally want to mislead the Committee. We have to give the free of administrative pressure”. figures out in accordance with the highest standards of To that end, the court has been established as a non- accountancy, and the way that costs have been amortised ministerial department with its own chief executive, in this building renders that difficult. who is also the court’s accounting officer, to ensure that I am not sure whether it is worth going to the effort of there can be no question of interference by the Executive translating the entire argument down into the costs in its day-to-day running. The chief executive, which equation, as in the end this is a political debating point. the new clause would abolish, plays a key role in managing I believe that the difference in running costs is unlikely appropriate relationships between the court and branches to be large, and I suspect that the hon. Member for of Government throughout the UK and assuring proper North-West Norfolk thinks so, too. accountability for the use of public resources—of course, The new clause is technically defective— there must be such accountability. If the function were abolished, the Lord Chancellor Mr. Heald: Will the Minister give way? would have to provide support along the lines of sections 1 and 2 of the Courts Act 2003, which set out the general duty on the Lord Chancellor to ensure that Mr. Wills: No, as I want to come to the real burden of there is an efficient and effective system to support the my remarks. We have spent quite a lot of time on what business of the senior courts, county courts and magistrates even the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk said courts, and that appropriate services are provided for was a modest proposal, so I would like to make the those courts. main points of my argument against it. If the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) still Since the new clause does not remove other related wants to intervene after I have made some progress, I provisions of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, such will of course give way to him. as section 50, which requires the Lord Chancellor to provide accommodation and other resources, the removal The main problem with new clause 22 is that it still of the chief executive role would bring all those financial fails the separation of powers test. The hon. Member accountability responsibilities back to the Lord Chancellor for North-West Norfolk said—although I am not sure and the Ministry of Justice, compromising the independence that he really meant it—that he welcomes how the of the Supreme Court, cutting right across the justices’ legislature has become tangled up with the higher reaches own requirements for managerial and financial of the judiciary. I accept that there has been a certain independence, and re-entangling the legislature and the entanglement, but I certainly do not welcome it, and I Executive with the judiciary in precisely the way that we think that the British people do not want it. One of the think it is right that they should be disentangled. greatest protections of their liberties is that the legislature and the judiciary are not entangled. We are continuing Finally, the amendment is defective as it leaves intact the process of disentangling them as far as we possibly section 51 of the Act under which the chief executive is can, and that is the purpose of the establishment of the responsible for ensuring that Supreme Court. I do not want to rehearse all the “the Court’s resources are used to provide an efficient and effective arguments again, but it is very important that we set out system to support the Court’s business”. exactly what the chief executive does, as that is the core For all those reasons, I hope the hon. Member for of the problem. North-West Norfolk (Mr. Bellingham) will withdraw The statute says that it is for the chief executive to the new clause. manage the non-judicial functions of the Supreme Court, so that its resources are used to provide an efficient and Mr. Bellingham: The Minister, in his usual charming effective system to support it in carrying out its business. way, has been extremely persuasive. Although he made I think that everyone should accept that there is a some good points, we do not in any way resile from the function there to be performed. The chief executive arguments that we advanced. Our point is simple: the works under the President of the Supreme Court, and chief executive post at such expense is a huge luxury. 919 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 920 Governance Bill Governance Bill What is wrong with a senior clerk or a manager on a May, rh Mrs. Theresa Smith, Chloe much lower salary carrying out those admin roles? That McCrea, Dr. William Spicer, Sir Michael is what we would like to see, but because of the Minister’s McIntosh, Miss Anne Spring, Mr. Richard charm and persuasion, I beg to ask leave to withdraw McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John the clause. Mercer, Patrick Steen, Mr. Anthony Miller, Mrs. Maria Streeter, Mr. Gary Clause, by leave, withdrawn. Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Stuart, Mr. Graham Moss, Mr. Malcolm Swire, Mr. Hugo New Clause 22 Mundell, David Syms, Mr. Robert Newmark, Mr. Brooks Tapsell, Sir Peter WRITTEN TESTS BY THE JUDICIAL APPOINTMENTS O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Taylor, Mr. Ian COMMISSION Ottaway, Richard Timpson, Mr. Edward ‘(1) Section 88 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 is Paice, Mr. James Tredinnick, David amended as follows. Paterson, Mr. Owen Turner, Mr. Andrew (2) After subsection (5) insert— Penning, Mike Vaizey, Mr. Edward “(6) At no stage during any selection procedure may the Penrose, John Vara, Mr. Shailesh Commission apply any written tests.”’.—(Mr. Bellingham.) Pickles, Mr. Eric Viggers, Sir Peter Brought up, and read the First time. Prisk, Mr. Mark Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Pritchard, Mark Wallace, Mr. Ben Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Redwood, rh Mr. John Waterson, Mr. Nigel The Committee divided: Ayes 150, Noes 329. Robertson, Mr. Laurence Watkinson, Angela Division No. 238] [4.17 pm Robinson, Mrs. Iris Whittingdale, Mr. John Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Willetts, Mr. David AYES Ruffley, Mr. David Wilson, Sammy Scott, Mr. Lee Afriyie, Adam Gale, Mr. Roger Winterton, Ann Selous, Andrew Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Garnier, Mr. Edward Young, rh Sir George Shapps, Grant Amess, Mr. David Gauke, Mr. David Shepherd, Mr. Richard Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Gibb, Mr. Nick Tellers for the Ayes: Simmonds, Mark Mr. Stephen Crabb and Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Simpson, Mr. Keith Jeremy Wright Atkinson, Mr. Peter Goodman, Mr. Paul Baldry, Tony Goodwill, Mr. Robert Barker, Gregory Gove, Michael NOES Baron, Mr. John Gray, Mr. James Abbott, Ms Diane Butler, Ms Dawn Bellingham, Mr. Henry Greening, Justine Ainger, Nick Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Beresford, Sir Paul Grieve, Mr. Dominic Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Binley, Mr. Brian Gummer, rh Mr. John Allen, Mr. Graham Cable, Dr. Vincent Bone, Mr. Peter Hammond, Mr. Philip Atkins, Charlotte Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Boswell, Mr. Tim Hands, Mr. Greg Austin, Mr. Ian Cairns, David Bottomley, Peter Harper, Mr. Mark Bailey, Mr. Adrian Campbell, Mr. Alan Brady, Mr. Graham Heald, Mr. Oliver Baird, Vera Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Brazier, Mr. Julian Heathcoat-Amory, rh Balls, rh Ed Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Browning, Angela Mr. David Banks, Gordon Caton, Mr. Martin Burns, Mr. Simon Hendry, Charles Barlow, Ms Celia Cawsey, Mr. Ian Burrowes, Mr. David Herbert, Nick Barrett, John Challen, Colin Burt, Alistair Hermon, Lady Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Chapman, Ben Butterfill, Sir John Hoban, Mr. Mark Beckett, rh Margaret Clapham, Mr. Michael Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Begg, Miss Anne Clark, Ms Katy Cash, Mr. William Hollobone, Mr. Philip Beith, rh Sir Alan Clark, Paul Chope, Mr. Christopher Holloway, Mr. Adam Bell, Sir Stuart Clarke, rh Mr. Tom Clappison, Mr. James Horam, Mr. John Benn, rh Hilary Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Clark, Greg Howell, John Benton, Mr. Joe Clelland, Mr. David Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Berry, Roger Clwyd, rh Ann Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Hurd, Mr. Nick Betts, Mr. Clive Coaker, Mr. Vernon Cormack, Sir Patrick Jack, rh Mr. Michael Blackman, Liz Coffey, Ann Curry, rh Mr. David Jackson, Mr. Stewart Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Connarty, Michael Davies, David T.C. Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Blears, rh Hazel Cook, Frank (Monmouth) Jones, Mr. David Blunkett, rh Mr. David Cooper, Rosie Davies, Philip Kawczynski, Daniel Borrow, Mr. David S. Corbyn, Jeremy Davis, rh David Key, Robert Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Cousins, Jim Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Kirkbride, Miss Julie Brake, Tom Crausby, Mr. David Dodds, Mr. Nigel Knight, rh Mr. Greg Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Brennan, Kevin Creagh, Mary Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Brooke, Annette Cruddas, Jon Dorries, Nadine Leigh, Mr. Edward Brown, Lyn Cryer, Mrs. Ann Duddridge, James Lewis, Dr. Julian Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Cummings, John Duncan, Alan Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Brown, Mr. Russell Cunningham, Mr. Jim Dunne, Mr. Philip Lidington, Mr. David Browne, Mr. Jeremy Cunningham, Tony Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Luff, Peter Bryant, Chris Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire Evennett, Mr. David Maclean, rh David Buck, Ms Karen Davey, Mr. Edward Fabricant, Michael Main, Anne Burden, Richard David, Mr. Wayne Fallon, Mr. Michael Maples, Mr. John Burstow, Mr. Paul Davidson, Mr. Ian Fraser, Christopher Maude, rh Mr. Francis Burt, Lorely Davies, Mr. Dai 921 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 922 Governance Bill Governance Bill Dean, Mrs. Janet Huhne, Chris Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Snelgrove, Anne Denham, rh Mr. John Humble, Mrs. Joan Moore, Mr. Michael Soulsby, Sir Peter Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Hunter, Mark Morden, Jessica Southworth, Helen Dobbin, Jim Iddon, Dr. Brian Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Spellar, rh Mr. John Dobson, rh Frank Illsley, Mr. Eric Mountford, Kali Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Doran, Mr. Frank James, Mrs. Siân C. Mudie, Mr. George Stewart, Ian Durkan, Mark Jenkins, Mr. Brian Mulholland, Greg Stoate, Dr. Howard Eagle, Angela Johnson, Ms Diana R. Mullin, Mr. Chris Straw, rh Mr. Jack Eagle, Maria Jones, Helen Munn, Meg Stringer, Graham Efford, Clive Jones, Lynne Murphy, Mr. Denis Stuart, Ms Gisela Ellman, Mrs. Louise Jowell, rh Tessa Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Swinson, Jo Engel, Natascha Joyce, Mr. Eric O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Tami, Mark Ennis, Jeff Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald O’Hara, Mr. Edward Taylor, Ms Dari Etherington, Bill Keeble, Ms Sally Öpik, Lembit Taylor, David Farrelly, Paul Keeley, Barbara Osborne, Sandra Taylor, Dr. Richard Farron, Tim Keen, Alan Owen, Albert Teather, Sarah Featherstone, Lynne Keen, Ann Palmer, Dr. Nick Thomas, Mr. Gareth Field, rh Mr. Frank Keetch, Mr. Paul Pearson, Ian Thornberry, Emily Fisher, Mark Kelly, rh Ruth Plaskitt, Mr. James Thurso, John Fitzpatrick, Jim Kemp, Mr. Fraser Pope, Mr. Greg Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Flello, Mr. Robert Kennedy, rh Jane Prentice, Bridget Tipping, Paddy Flint, rh Caroline Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Prentice, Mr. Gordon Todd, Mr. Mark Flynn, Paul Kidney, Mr. David Primarolo, rh Dawn Touhig, rh Mr. Don Follett, Barbara Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Prosser, Gwyn Trickett, Jon Foster, Mr. Don Knight, rh Jim Pugh, Dr. John Truswell, Mr. Paul Foster, Mr. Michael Kramer, Susan Purchase, Mr. Ken Turner, Dr. Desmond (Worcester) Kumar, Dr. Ashok Purnell, rh James Turner, Mr. Neil Foster, Michael Jabez Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Ussher, Kitty (Hastings and Rye) Lammy, rh Mr. David Reed, Mr. Andy Walley, Joan Francis, Dr. Hywel Laxton, Mr. Bob Reed, Mr. Jamie Waltho, Lynda Gapes, Mike Lazarowicz, Mark Reid, Mr. Alan Ward, Claire Gardiner, Barry Leech, Mr. John Reid, rh John Watson, Mr. Tom George, Andrew Lepper, David Riordan, Mrs. Linda Watts, Mr. Dave Gerrard, Mr. Neil Levitt, Tom Robertson, Angus Webb, Steve Gidley, Sandra Linton, Martin Robertson, John Whitehead, Dr. Alan Gilroy, Linda Lloyd, Tony Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Goggins, rh Paul Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Rooney, Mr. Terry Wicks, rh Malcolm Goodman, Helen Love, Mr. Andrew Rowen, Paul Williams, rh Mr. Alan Griffith, Nia Lucas, Ian Roy, Lindsay Williams, Hywel Griffiths, Nigel Mackinlay, Andrew Ruane, Chris Williams, Mark Grogan, Mr. John MacNeil, Mr. Angus Ruddock, Joan Williams, Mr. Roger Gwynne, Andrew Mactaggart, Fiona Russell, Bob Williams, Stephen Hain, rh Mr. Peter Malik, Mr. Shahid Ryan, rh Joan Willis, Mr. Phil Hall, Mr. Mike Mallaber, Judy Sanders, Mr. Adrian Willott, Jenny Hall, Patrick Mann, John Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Wills, rh Mr. Michael Hamilton, Mr. David Marris, Rob Seabeck, Alison Wilson, Phil Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Marsden, Mr. Gordon Shaw, Jonathan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hanson, rh Mr. David Martlew, Mr. Eric Sheerman, Mr. Barry Wishart, Pete Harman, rh Ms Harriet McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Sheridan, Jim Wood, Mike Harris, Dr. Evan McCabe, Steve Skinner, Mr. Dennis Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Harvey, Nick McCafferty, Chris Slaughter, Mr. Andy Wright, Mr. Anthony Havard, Mr. Dai McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Wright, David Healey, rh John McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, Ms Angela C. Wright, Dr. Tony Heath, Mr. David McCartney, rh Mr. Ian (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Younger-Ross, Richard Hemming, John McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Henderson, Mr. Doug McDonnell, John Smith, Geraldine Tellers for the Noes: Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, rh Jacqui Mr. Bob Blizzard and Hesford, Stephen McFall, rh John Smith, Sir Robert Mr. John Heppell Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia McGovern, Mr. Jim Heyes, David McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Question accordingly negatived. Hillier, Meg McIsaac, Shona Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon McKenna, Rosemary Hoey, Kate McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Clause 37 Holmes, Paul Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Hood, Mr. Jim Meale, Mr. Alan Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Merron, Gillian THE COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR GENERAL Hopkins, Kelvin Michael, rh Alun Horwood, Martin Miliband, rh Edward Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): I beg to move Howarth, David Miller, Andrew amendment 68, page 18, line 19, at end add— Howarth, rh Mr. George Mitchell, Mr. Austin ‘(9) The principal function of the Comptroller and Auditor Howells, rh Dr. Kim Moffatt, Laura General is to further the purposes of national audit set out in Hughes, Simon Mole, Chris section [Purpose of Part 7] by way of investigation and report.’. 923 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 924 Governance Bill Governance Bill The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Mr. David Gauke (South-West Hertfordshire) (Con): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: I thank the hon. Gentleman for tabling these amendments amendment 78, in clause 38, page 19, line 2, at end and the new clause. I suspect that the question whether insert— it is necessary to reassert such objectives in this Bill ‘(6A) The Comptroller and Auditor General shall also have given that the 1983 Act, which also states them, is not discretion to examine the accounts of any organisation supplying being repealed, will be addressed in a moment, but the goods or services paid for out of public funds, which within any CAG’s objective of carrying out examinations of the one contract, or any one financial year, exceed a sum to be economy, efficiency and effectiveness of public bodies determined from time to time by statutory instrument.’. is, as the hon. Gentleman says, very important. Perhaps New clause 41—Purpose of Part 7— it is more important now than ever, at a time when we will see spending restraint. The Government are spending ‘The purpose of the following provisions is to further strengthen Parliamentary control and supervision of the more than ever before and, indeed, borrowing more expenditure of public money, and for promoting economy, than ever before in peacetime, so the focus must clearly efficiently, effectiveness and probity in the use of such money be on achieving more for less. The NAO and the CAG by government departments and other authorities and have an important role in achieving that. Taxpayer organisations.’. value for money should unite us all—it should not be a partisan point—whether we are left or right. I do not Kelvin Hopkins: It gives me great pleasure to speak to think the hon. Gentleman will take it as a criticism if I these amendments, if briefly. say that it does not get more left wing than him. We In a major piece of legislation it is important that its must all ensure that public spending achieves good purposes should be clear, but the Bill nowhere specifies value and it is worth paying tribute to the work that the the purposes and aims of national audit, although the NAO and various CAGs have performed to achieve that. National Audit Act 1983 does so. The amendments are We may differ on how to achieve greater economy, intended to remedy that omission. efficiency and effectiveness in public bodies, and in Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West) (Lab): That is not many ways, this is a matter for great political debate—I the purpose of the Bill. The statutory powers are already am sure the hon. Gentleman would not necessarily in place, and the purpose of this part of the Bill is to share the Conservatives’ views about the importance of bring better governance into the processes of the National choice, competition and contestability in achieving better Audit Office. value for money. However, there is a less political role, and the NAO performs it very well, in conjunction with Kelvin Hopkins: I accept entirely what my right hon. the Public Accounts Committee. The new clause refers Friend says, but I hope that one purpose of the Bill is to to Parliament’s important role. As I said, we could restate the objectives of audit. question whether the amendments are necessary, but the objective of the NAO and the CAG is important. Mr. Alan Williams indicated dissent. I have one or two points to make on clause 37. If there is a stand part debate on it, I will do so then. Kelvin Hopkins: Clearly my right hon. Friend and I disagree, but I hope it will be accepted that the restatement of the 1983 Act would not go amiss in the Bill. The Chairman: Order. I was hoping not to have a stand part debate in view of the fact that, with the new New clause 41 is intended to be inserted at the head clause, this is a fairly wide grouping. of part 7. It repeats the opening of the 1983 Act, with the addition of the word “probity”, which seems appropriate in current terms. Amendment 68 is intended to make Mr. Gauke: In which case, Sir Alan, I shall make clear the function of the Comptroller and Auditor those points now. General in relation to the purposes of national audit, This part of the Bill, as the Father of the House has and amendment 78 takes account of the modern said, is predominantly to do with the governance of the circumstances in which private firms and third-sector NAO and the CAG, and there is a combination of organisations can receive a significant proportion of continuity and change in the new arrangements. I think their funds—up to 80 per cent. in some cases—from the it would be fair to provide a little background on how public purse. When the services that they provide were we got into this situation and why there was a need to provided directly by public authorities, they were subject look again at the governance of the CAG—doubtless to the Comptroller and Auditor General or to local the Chairman of the PAC, my hon. Friend the Member government audit. Modern suppliers of services receiving for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), and the Father of the public money should be subject to the CAG, as plcs will House will say things to the same effect. be under clause 50. We cannot ignore the fact that there was some adverse It is important to reassert the importance of the publicity regarding the expenses of Sir John Bourn, CAG and national audit. In the last Parliament, there who was CAG for some 20 years or so. It is a great pity was a brief, surreptitious attempt by the Government to that there was a cloud over the last few months of his insert a degree of Treasury control over national audit. service, because he was a distinguished Comptroller That was seen off by a combination of Labour Members, and Auditor General. He did much to enhance the Opposition Members and the House of Lords, and the reputation of the National Audit Office and worked Bill never proceeded, but it is important that we now very effectively with the Public Accounts Committee. reaffirm our commitment to national audit. After all, Nevertheless, there was some concern and adverse publicity our primary purpose is to vote moneys for government over his expenses, which in many respects led to the on behalf of the people. We must ensure that what commissioning of the Tiner review and various moneys we vote are spent appropriately. That is what recommendations made as to the governance of the national audit and the CAG are all about. Comptroller and Auditor General and the NAO. 925 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 926 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Gauke] 4.45 pm

I wish to make various points about corporate governance Mr. Heald: I have been wondering whether the CAG at a later stage, but two points are appropriate to would be the right person to be in charge of the office address in the context of clause 37. The first is the for budget responsibility that the Conservative party length of term of the Comptroller and Auditor General, has proposed. I wonder that for exactly the reasons that and the second is the appointment process. Clause 37(7) my hon. Friend has outlined: the independent nature of provides that the length of term should be 10 years the CAG appointment process. and subsection (8) provides that it should be non-renewable. We welcome those provisions. The tension that exists in Mr. Gauke: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s the Government’s arrangements in this area relates to intervention. That would be an interesting structure, independence and accountability, and that is a point to although I would be reluctant for the CAG to perform which we may return later. However, a non-renewable that role. Although the CAG and whoever would be in term of a reasonable length gives the CAG a degree of charge of the office for budget responsibility would play independence. The Tiner review initially suggested an important role in budget responsibility, I would not eight years, and we now have 10 years in the Bill. No want to complicate the role of the CAG because it is a doubt others will explain the reason for that change, but substantial job in itself. Furthermore, the skills required it is not enormously significant. We welcome those of the CAG—being able to identify waste in specific provisions. programmes—involve performing a role at a micro level The issue of the appointment process has been touched in identifying particular problems, whereas we envisage on recently in a couple of debates when new Comptrollers the office for budget responsibility working at much and Auditors General have been appointed. I have had more of a macro level. It would be a role for an the opportunity to speak in both debates—first, on the economist to assess the needs of the Government in temporary appointment of Mr. Tim Burr in January reducing the deficit, and the progress—or lack of—made 2008, and secondly, on the appointment of Mr. Amyas by the Government in achieving those objectives. The Morse as the permanent CAG. The debate has centred parallel is strong in that both roles require a high degree on whether the existing structure, which has been in of independence to have the credibility required to place since 1983—by which time the appointment was perform successfully. made by a combination of the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee and the Prime Minister—is Mr. Heald: My first thought was that, to assess the appropriate or whether Parliament should have a wider sustainability of public finances, we need expert economists, role, and remove the Prime Minister and the Executive as my hon. Friend just said. However, there would be from the process, either altogether or with a diminished two other aspects of the role of the new office: to audit role. fully the national debt—or debts—and to enforce a Another issue is whether pre-appointment hearings long-term strategy of value for money in public spending. should be introduced. This is not a new debate. In the Those fit in well with the role of the CAG. Would there debate that took place when Sir John Bourn was appointed, be any logic to giving him that role? I simply cast out the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, the right that thought to him. hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East and Wallsend (Mr. Brown), then the Opposition spokesman, said, on Mr. Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I am the question of a greater role for Parliament: sure that his points will be noted. Both roles would be “The Labour party intends to give effect to this principle when important. It is helpful to the Committee highlight the in government.”—[Official Report, 16 December 1987; Vol. 124, significance of the office for budget responsibility, and I c. 1201.] think that we agree on the significant role that it would play—I hope—in addressing the current huge levels of The argument for that approach is that we should have borrowing. I hope that it would be important, just as greater parliamentary involvement in public appointments. the CAG has been important. It is an argument that the Prime Minister espoused in his very first statement to this House as Prime Minister. On clause 37, we think, on balance, that the result It is one with which I have some sympathy, as it seems to that we have got to, which is largely a continuation of be a more democratic approach, but there are specific the previous process, is an important one. We are pleased arguments that apply in this context that suggest that that it remains a requirement for the Prime Minister to the continuation of the present system may be a sensible move the motion for the appointment of the CAG. As I approach. said, I have had the pleasure of responding to the Prime Minister twice when he has performed that role—I am The first argument is that the Chairman of the Public sure that he was delighted to have that opportunity too. Accounts Committee is a member of the Opposition. All being well, however, such a motion should not That is a long-standing convention, and one that I am happen very often—once in 10 years, as the Bill envisages— sure will continue. The Chairman has a substantial role although it is always possible that things will not go in determining an appointment. In fact, by and large, as entirely to plan. Because of the independence provided I understand it, in practice the Chairman essentially by the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, makes the selection, which is then approved by the there is a danger that the existing independence might Prime Minister. be diminished in those circumstances by a straight vote It is important that the CAG is seen as independent in Parliament—whether a vote in Committee or a vote of the Executive, and an appointment made by a senior by the whole House—given that the Government will Opposition Member demonstrates an important degree always be the majority party. Consequently, we welcome of independence. clause 37. 927 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 928 Governance Bill Governance Bill Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I rise to a member of the Government by definition, and the speak in favour of clause 37, which covers the office of Chairman of the PAC, who by convention is a member the Comptroller and Auditor General, and to oppose of the Opposition, both agree. amendments 68 and 78, and new clause 41. In fact, in appointing the current Comptroller and A number of provisions already protect the independence Auditor General we improved the process further. Last of the post holder, including the appointment process, time, when Sir John Bourn was appointed, my predecessor, the length of tenure and the terms of the appointment. Bob Sheldon—now Lord Sheldon—was given a list by Let me start with some context, so that we can understand the civil service and he interviewed the candidates in his the significance of the legislation, why it is important to flat. It was a closed process. We now have an open be clear about the purpose of the Bill and why we must competition, and this time there were a number of tread carefully in this territory. advertisements, and anyone could apply. The interviews were carried out at length by myself and the permanent The Comptroller and Auditor General is an Officer secretary to the Treasury, who represented the Prime of the House of Commons. He is not a civil servant and Minister. I would like to thank the permanent secretary is completely independent of the Government. Uniquely, for the many hours of work that he put into this. By that he is selected by the Government and the Opposition. stage, we had already appointed the new chairman of He reports to Parliament on the activities of the the National Audit Office, Sir Andrew Likierman, and Government and his work is overseen largely by the he was also involved in the latter part of the process. We Public Accounts Committee—the oldest Committee in had an open competition with a number of good candidates, Parliament, which was set up 150 years ago—which is and I believe that we came out with the best. always chaired by a member of the Opposition. Therefore, there are a number of locks throughout the process to Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): My hon. Friend ensure the independence of the Comptroller and Auditor has just referred to the chairman of the National Audit General. Office having some involvement in the selection of the All those arrangements are supported by complex current Comptroller and Auditor General. Will he elaborate legislative structures and significant parliamentary a little further on the relationships involved, in the conventions, many of which have existed for a long context of the appointment of a Comptroller and Auditor time. The result of all those conventions and laws, as General? The Prime Minister is involved, as is the well as what we are talking about in clause 37, is to Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, but what enable the Comptroller and Auditor General to function is the role of the chair of the National Audit Office in absolutely independently of the Government. That is the appointment of its chief executive? what they all do. He must have complete discretion in Mr. Leigh: The chairman’s role was simply to advise. how he carries out his functions. He is a very distinguished gentleman—he is the dean of I worked closely with the Father of the House, after the London Business School, and he was head of the the retirement of Sir John Bourn. We were clear at all Government resources office in the Treasury—and he times that we must not mess with the traditional simply gave me advice. Obviously, I am not going to independence of the Comptroller and Auditor General. reveal who was on the shortlist or what happened in the There may be an opportunity later to discuss the corporate discussions, but I can say that, ultimately, the decision structure and all the rest of it, but the fundamental was mine and no one else’s. I listened to his advice and point is that the Comptroller and Auditor General is that of Tim Burr, the then Comptroller and Auditor completely independent of the Government and that he General, who was also on the selection panel as he was alone and nobody else—not the Public Accounts not a candidate himself. Nick Macpherson, the permanent Committee and not the board of the National Audit secretary to the Treasury, also gave me his advice. I Office—signs off the reports. Nobody else can affect his chaired the meeting, and I made the decision: I appointed judgments. He is completely independent, and that is the new Comptroller and Auditor General. vital. Then, however, my decision had to go to the Prime That statutory independence, which is underpinned Minister, and I give him credit for acting promptly, by the new Bill, is not a notional phenomenon, shrouded because, within a week, he had approved the appointment. in cobwebs and dating back centuries, or at least back So he, too, had a lock on the process. Of course, it is not to Gladstone. Rather, it is real, it is current and it forms surprising that he approved the appointment, because a key plank of our constitutional fabric. One only has Nick Macpherson was part of the process. If I had to look around the world at what has happened in other insisted on appointing someone who was obviously not countries to know how important it is—indeed, vital—to qualified, the Prime Minister would have vetoed it. So have an independent supreme audit office. Every country we each had a lock on it, and that is a very good process. has a supreme audit office, but not all of them are as It might sound democratic to suggest that the House independent or effective as ours. Indeed, ours is arguably as a whole should vote for the Comptroller and Auditor the best in the world. General, but that would go against everything that I have been arguing for—namely, that the Opposition I am therefore pleased that the current arrangements, and the Government should both have a lock on the whereby the Comptroller and Auditor General’s process. If the House as a whole voted on the appointment, appointment is proposed by the Prime Minister following the Government party would effectively appoint him. consultation with the Chairman of the PAC, have endured—I say “consultation”, but it goes much further Mr. Alan Williams: Does the hon. Gentleman recollect than that. Frankly, they both have a veto. This gentleman— that the one proposal that we turned down from Tiner Amyas Morse, although the Comptroller and Auditor was his suggestion that the chair should be selected by General may be a lady in the future; we do not know—can the Prime Minister and the chair of the Commission? be appointed only if the Prime Minister, who is obviously We unanimously rejected that, because the chair of the 929 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 930 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Alan Williams] 10 years. I think that the Government probably favoured eight years and I would have been happy with eight Commission is chosen by the Prime Minister, or by the years, but 10 years is a real good length of time to make Government party, and is of the same party. For that one’s mark—it could span three, certainly two, reason, we insisted on reverting to the situation that the Governments. hon. Gentleman enjoyed. It is very important that this appointment be non- renewable. We do not want the CAG to suffer the fate of Mr. Leigh: It was the same process. I am grateful to all US Presidents and most new Prime Ministers where the Father of the House for his generous offer to the first term is overshadowed by the need to be re-elected. surrender his right to appoint the chairman of the This chap owes nothing to anybody. Nobody can sack National Audit Office, along with the Prime Minister; him—short of he or she having a hand in the till—and that was what was originally proposed. We immediately nobody can get rid of him; he is there for 10 years and spotted the problem that he has just alluded to—namely, then he retires. that that would effectively mean that the Government party would appoint the chairman. The right hon. We need to take great care before tampering with Gentleman therefore immediately, and very generously, any of the founding legislation, which was carefully surrendered that right. Just as there was an appointment drawn to provide broad rights of access and reporting panel for the Comptroller and Auditor General, there and to safeguard the independence of the CAG as an was also one previously for the chairman. Again, the Officer of the House and the external auditor of the Prime Minister, as a member of the Government, and I, Government. That is not to say that no aspect of the as a member of the Opposition, had a lock on that arrangements can be improved upon. I am in favour of process. So I think that we have the right structure. the changes proposed in the Bill. I think that the The independence of the Comptroller and Auditor arrangement is being improved, but we need to take General is guaranteed by a jigsaw of measures that great care and to be alert to our old friends—the hang together as a whole, and we should be very wary unintended consequences. of unpicking any one part of it without careful The Public Accounts Commission has worked very consideration. We do not know what is going to happen closely with the Government to ensure that the clauses in the future. There could be some kind of appalling improve the governance arrangements of the National financial scandal at the heart of the Government, for Audit Office. I pay tribute to the Government for adopting example, and it is absolutely essential that this man—or all that the commission proposed; there was complete lady—is completely independent. agreement within it, as well. We should also pay tribute Central to this has always been the fact that the to the fact that the Government, working with the Comptroller and Auditor General also has tenure of commission, have ensured that we are not going to appointment and, like a judge, cannot be removed from undermine the audit independence of the CAG. office except on a vote of the entire House of Commons. The commission agreed that it was possible to separate The Public Accounts Commission, which I also sit the internal governance—this is a very important point—of on—it is, of course, separate from the Public Accounts the NAO from the responsibility for making audit Committee—has concluded that the current unlimited judgments, but we recognised that to do so required appointment was “anachronistic”. I do not think that arrangements that were unique among the panoply of when Sir John Bourn was appointed anyone spotted organisational models used in 21st century Britain. that the civil service retirement age at the time was 60: it What the Father of the House and myself were absolutely was rigidly enforced; all senior civil servants had to determined to avoid was some kind of new corporate retire at 60. structure in which a board could affect the independence and audit judgments of the CAG. I know that there has 5pm been some debate about this, and some worries that we were creating something like the Audit Commission—we Mr. Williams: Will the Chairman of the Public Accounts are not. The CAG is completely independent. This Committee bear in mind that there is an important board will deal only with the organisational structure of extra safeguard even there? If a vote of only this House the body. were required, the Government could use their majority, which is why a vote of both Houses is required to The Bill thus proposes no changes that will affect the dispose of the Comptroller and Auditor General. work—the real and important work—of the CAG in the audit of Government accounts or in the 60 reports Mr. Leigh: I should have made that clear; it is a very on value for money that he makes to the Public Accounts important point. In other words, it is virtually impossible Committee every year. He remains independent. He to get rid of him. That is absolutely right. alone will be responsible for all audit judgments; he I was saying that the previous appointment was alone will maintain complete discretion in the discharge anachronistic and that no one spotted at the time Sir John of his office. His access rights are not affected and the Bourn was appointed that even though the civil service results of his work will continue to be reported in full to retirement age was 60, he could basically go on. I had a Parliament through the Public Accounts Committee. very good relationship with Sir John Bourn, who was outstanding public servant. Frankly, however, let us be Mr. Dunne: I am grateful to the Chairman of the honest about it, 20 years is perhaps too long. The Public Accounts Committee for clarifying the important equivalent office in the United States has a fixed single tenets of independence that the Comptroller and Auditor term of 15 years, which we also thought was too long. General will continue to have in carrying out his day The Public Accounts Commission thus concluded that job, if I can put it that way. Will he elaborate a little a fixed term of 10 years was appropriate. There was further on the distinction he made a few moments ago some argument over whether it should be eight or about the role of the board and the chairman in so far 931 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 932 Governance Bill Governance Bill as they relate to the CAG? In a conventional sense, a We do not need to define the Comptroller and Auditor chairman would normally have some authority over the General’s access rights. He has all the access he needs. CAG, but it appears from what my hon. Friend said Make no mistake: the National Audit Office can interview that that is not intended. any civil servant, open any filing cabinet, and report on anything it likes. Having been Chairman of the Public Mr. Leigh: I hope that I am not giving away any Accounts Committee, I assure the House that no restraint confidences by saying that Amyas Morse told me this or inhibition is placed on the Comptroller and Auditor week that it can be a very lonely job—and, as I have General doing his job. Clause 37 is right, and gives him described it, a very important one—and he welcomes the power he needs. the advice of the chairman of the board, Sir Andrew Likierman. The Comptroller and Auditor General can David Howarth: May I say that I was immensely go to him in confidence at any time and ask for his reassured by the speech of the Chairman of the Public support and advice. However, the arrangement is unique: Accounts Committee? It is vital that the Comptroller although Sir Andrew Likierman can give his advice, the and Auditor General remains absolutely independent in buck ultimately stops with the Comptroller and Auditor judgment. Whatever the governance arrangements and General. administrative structure built up behind the Comptroller and Auditor General, his judgments—perhaps hers in The Comptroller and Auditor General has a large the future—on reports must be independent. As the staff of 800 people who help him to write reports, but Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee said, that he puts his signature on the document, and it is his is built into the entire structure, the cross-party nature document and his alone. The board will be involved, for of the appointment and the nature of the office. instance, in appointments, such as deciding who should be deputy Comptroller and Auditor General, what the I shall not pursue the argument about the overall travel arrangements of the Comptroller and Auditor structure of the Bill. I fully accept that the commission General should be, and what should be the size of the and the Government have struck the right balance in staff. It was wrong that, under the previous incarnation relation to the NAO and its board, so I shall not detain of Sir John Bourn, who was a fine public servant, the the Committee for long. I intend simply to comment on Comptroller and Auditor General was a complete the amendments and new clause, and to ask a question dictator—that was always the case; Sir John did not about the application of clause 37 which I hope the change anything in that regard. He not only had Minister will be able to answer. complete independence on his audit judgment, which is I agree with the Chairman of the Public Accounts right, but appointed all the deputy Comptroller and Committee that it would not be a good idea to define Auditor Generals, decided the travel arrangements and the functions of the Comptroller and Auditor General everything else. In the modern world, one cannot go too closely. Any such definition might result in a restriction down that route. One must have a modern corporate that we would not want to see. However, I think it worth structure, involving a board, as long as the board does asking about a particular aspect of new clause 41. The not tell the Comptroller and Auditor General what to new clause states: do in relation to his audit judgments. “The purpose of the following provisions is to further strengthen Parliamentary control and supervision of the expenditure of Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): Does the Chairman public money”. of the Public Accounts Committee agree that, taking all One of the problems that I see with the present things into account, we now have a structure that deals structure, not in theory but in practice, is that it is far to some degree with the loneliness problem, and creates better at supervision than control. In other words, it is a relationship between the board chairman and the far better at looking back than looking forward. The CAG that will enable the morale of the NAO to be not Comptroller and Auditor General has two roles. The only sustained but strengthened? Does he also agree job of Comptroller is the forward-looking job of ensuring that the work of the Public Accounts Commission, and that the Government do not obtain the public’s money particularly of its chairman, was instrumental in enabling for purposes that have not been authorised by the such significant changes to be made without damage to House, while the job of Auditor General is that of the morale of the NAO, at a time when the structure looking back to see whether that money has been had a sense of fragility about it? properly spent. I think that, at some point, we must consider the important question whether the arrangements Mr. Leigh: As I understand it, morale in the National for the forward-looking role are as strong as they could Audit Office is now very high. It went through a sticky be, and as strong as the arrangements for the backward- patch—there is no point denying it—and there was bad looking role. publicity, much of it unfair, but that is now past us. I disagree with the PAC Chairman about amendment 78. Morale is high and people feel that the structure is fair The hon. Member for Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins) and open, that people are appointed entirely on ability, made clear that what concerned him was the problem of and that their career is judged by a number of people bodies which are not, in organisational form, public sitting on the board, the chairman and the non-executive bodies at all but private trusts or companies of various directors. I believe that we have got it right, and for that sorts, but which are in reality carrying out public functions. reason, I oppose the amendments, as they serve to That is the whole point of the discussion of contracting define the Comptroller and Auditor General’s audit out. I think that the Chairman was referring to issues purpose and to open up discussion of his access rights, relating to non-departmental bodies, in respect of which neither of which was covered by the review commissioned the National Audit Act lays down clear guidelines on by the Public Accounts Commission that led to this the Comptroller and Auditor General’s powers. I understand part of the Bill. that there is no power of the kind that the hon. Member 933 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 934 Governance Bill Governance Bill [David Howarth] Mr. Dunne: I do not intend to detain the Committee for long, but I would like to follow up the observation I for Luton, North is suggesting in the existing legislation. made to the Chairman of the PAC, my hon. Friend the The point is that there should not be anything in the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh). He has described way in which we set up our audit arrangements that the process governing the first appointment under this biases the entire system in favour of contracting out. legislation—although it has not been enacted yet, of Similarly, there should be no bias against contracting course. He said that the chairman of the NAO was able out. to offer his advice to both the Chairman of the PAC It seems to me—and I think the amendment raises and the Prime Minister, which is proper. However, I this point—that an immensely effective audit system would like the Minister to explain what would happen if involving great powers, which successfully terrorises the NAO chairman were unhappy about the appointment public officials into compliance with their duties but being made. There seems to be no provision in this does not apply to private organisations that carry out clause for formal consultation; that just happened by state functions under contracting-out arrangements, way of practice rather than under statute. Does that not effectively gives those organisations a huge advantage leave the NAO open to the possibility of having a over the state. fractious appointment imposed over the head of the chairman of the body? Mr. Leigh: I have taken advice on this. The Comptroller and Auditor General has statutory access to contractors The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah for the purposes of examining the public body concerned, McCarthy-Fry): It is a pleasure to serve under your but the National Audit Office does not think it would chairmanship this afternoon, Sir Alan. be appropriate for him to have access to suppliers’ This part of the Bill implements the recommendations commercial records further than is needed to audit of the 15th report of the Public Accounts Commission. public bodies. I think that we only need to secure access I would like to begin by paying tribute to the work of to the part of the contractors’ work that directly affects the NAO and the Comptroller and Auditor General. his contract with the Government. Part 7 of the Bill modernises the governance arrangements David Howarth: That is absolutely right. The purpose for national audit and continues the office of the is thought to be only to audit the Government Department Comptroller and Auditor General as an independent and not to have any access to the private body, but I officer of the House of Commons, but limits the term think that is a problem under current arrangements. As of office to a single appointment of 10 years. I remember it—I might be wrong on this—if a Minister agrees and the body agrees, there is further possibility of David Howarth: At this point, will the Minister clear an audit of a private body. I am, however, unsure up one particular problem with the drafting of clause 37? whether that is often invoked. Clause 37(1) says: The problem that has been identified is worth thinking “The office of the Comptroller and Auditor General is to about, but I am unsure whether the proposed solution is continue”, the right way to deal with it, as that is a discretion at but it does not say that the person currently in office large, which might produce problems in itself. will continue to hold that position. Can the Minister confirm that that is the Government’s intention, and that these arrangements will not apply until the next 5.15 pm appointment? Mr. Leigh: The Bill is primarily about the governance of the National Audit Office; it is not about audit Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I can certainly confirm that rights. We in the Public Accounts Commission thought that is the Government’s intention. After all the work it wise for the Bill to concentrate on the governance, as the Chair of the PAC has done on the appointment of that is set in concrete and is permanent, whereas audit the current Comptroller and Auditor General, he would rights can change over time. Indeed, only last week the be most unhappy if we had to go through the process all Government announced that the NAO was for the first over again. time to be allowed to audit the Financial Services The Bill provides for the establishment of a new Authority. We have also got a long-running campaign corporate body—the new National Audit Office—whose to audit the BBC. If the Bill starts getting into the functions will include providing resources for the territory of contracts, suppliers and so forth, that could Comptroller and Auditor General’s functions, monitoring make things quite messy and difficult in terms of an Act the execution of those functions and approving the of Parliament that we hope will last for many years. provision of certain services. Importantly, the new NAO David Howarth: I accept that point from the Chairman will be able to support and challenge constructively the of the Public Accounts Committee. In fact, many of CAG’s decisions without, of course, preventing him these considerations are themselves legislative, because from carrying out his statutory responsibilities. they are all to do with issues such as, for instance, which I come to the proposals made by my hon. Friend the bodies are listed in schedule 4 to the National Audit Member for Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins). As he was Act 1983. There has not been a long and organised not feeling too well during the Second Reading debate, debate that can advise the Committee on this issue, but he did not get on to the points he wanted to make about I think the hon. Member for Luton, North (Kelvin the national audit provisions—I hope he is feeling better Hopkins) has raised an important point, and although I today. Amendment 68 would set out in statute that the do not expect him to press his amendment to a vote principal function of the CAG is to further the purposes tonight, I would like the Government to accept that it is of national audit, which he set out in new clause 41. a matter that it worthy of further debate. Amendment 78 would enable the CAG to have access to 935 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 936 Governance Bill Governance Bill thousands of private sector companies that supply central transparent and to have a better way of ensuring that Government. I thank the hon. Members for South-West we can look at our spending plans, our estimates and Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke), for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), the expenditure outcome. for Cambridge (David Howarth) and for Ludlow We all agree, of course, that it is important that (Mr. Dunne) for their contributions to this debate. Parliament should continue to play an active role in Most who spoke this afternoon are of the same opinion; scrutinising the expenditure of public money, but we do we welcome the contribution that these proposals have not think that a declaratory provision of the type made to the debate, but the consensus is that they are envisaged in the proposed new clause accurately reflects not necessary. I shall now discuss the detail, where we the purpose of the provisions. have been extremely fortunate that the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee was able to share his insight On amendment 68, the national audit responsibilities into the appointments process. of the Comptroller and Auditor General are already set On new clause 41, of course the CAG exists to assist out in legislation, and within those responsibilities some Parliament in holding the Government to account for matters are left to the Comptroller and Auditor General’s the use that they make of public funds and, in doing so, judgment and discretion, such as whether to carry out a promotes the objectives that my hon. Friend the Member value-for-money examination into a particular subject. for Luton, North mentions. I can assure him that the That is consistent with his independent role in holding Government value that work as much as he does. I the Government to account. cannot dispute the fact that the effect of the arrangements Part 7 of and schedule 7 to the Bill already draw an in this part of the Bill will indirectly strengthen important distinction between the services to be provided parliamentary scrutiny, but that is not their primary by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The resources purpose. available to the Comptroller and Auditor General fall The Government are implementing the recommendations into two categories, those whose allocation is at the sole of the Public Accounts Commission’s 15th report. In discretion of the Comptroller and Auditor General and doing so, we are accepting the commission’s two driving those for additional but important services, which require principles. The first is the need to ensure that the CAG National Audit Office approval. has authority to form completely independent judgments We do not consider it to be necessary or desirable to about the audits and value-for-money studies conducted impose any further restriction on the way in which the by the NAO. The second is the need for the NAO to Comptroller and Auditor General and the NAO choose maintain systems of governance and internal controls to exercise discretion on the use of resources by suggesting consistent with best practice. When we prepared the that one function should be elevated to the status of a provisions in part 7, we took the utmost care not to principal function. We consider that, while all the work jeopardise the CAG’s independence in those areas. carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General is As now, the Public Accounts Commission will oversee important, the provisions relating to the use of resources the work of the CAG and the NAO—indeed, its role is give a clear indication of where the Comptroller and increased by these reforms. However, it would be inaccurate Auditor General’s priorities lie. to describe the main purpose of this part of the Bill as Beyond that, it is for the Comptroller and Auditor strengthening parliamentary control, because, as the General and the National Audit Office, within the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee said, its focus framework established by the Bill, to establish priorities. is rather on strengthening governance. That is consistent with the independence of their roles. I would add that the Government are doing a number of things to improve parliamentary scrutiny of government Before I move on to discuss amendment 78, the hon. expenditure. Hon. Members will be aware that the Member for Ludlow asked me a direct question about Government provided a memorandum to the Liaison what would happen if the NAO chair did not get on Committee in March containing formal proposals to with the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is right Parliament for better alignment between budgets, estimates that it is for the Prime Minister and the Chair of the and accounts. The memorandum explained the plans to Public Accounts Committee alone formally to make the simplify the Government’s financial reporting to Parliament, appointment. The NAO chair would serve only in an ensuring that they report in a more consistent, transparent advisory capacity and he would not be the one who was and straightforward fashion on spending plans, estimates making the final decision. and expenditure outcomes. I hope to assure the hon. Member for Cambridge that further work on the way Mr. Leigh: Let us be practical about this. We worked Parliament supervises expenditure continues in a number as a team. I was sitting there with Nick Macpherson, of ways, including through the work of the Select the permanent secretary to the Treasury, with Andrew Committee on Reform of the House of Commons, Likierman and with Tim Burr. Although the decision which is expected to bring forward its proposals shortly. was ultimately mine, I would not have insisted on proposing somebody who was unacceptable to the permanent Mr. Gauke: Can the Minister explain, therefore, why Secretary to the Treasury. What would have been the the Government have, in recent years, refused to publish point of that? I do not think that I would have insisted the whole of Government accounts? For the past two on proposing somebody who was completely unacceptable years the work has been done but the information has to the chairman of the NAO. What would be the point? not been released—I believe that we are going to have to In the real world, those involved act together as a team wait until 2010 for it. but ultimately one person has to make the decision, and that is the Chairman of the Committee. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I can only say to the hon. Gentleman that, as I said just now, further work is ongoing on what we can introduce. We want to be more Sarah McCarthy-Fry: That is absolutely true. 937 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 938 Governance Bill Governance Bill Mr. Alan Williams: To meet that situation, we built in have already been through an extensive tendering process, a requirement that there should be a code to govern the not just to check whether the goods and services can be relationship that they had to develop within the board provided at best value for money but also to ensure that and to govern the relationship between the CAG and the suppliers are reputable and can fulfil the order. If the Chairman. That code has been agreed, as has a public bodies are failing to achieve value for money in strategy, and both have already been approved by the their dealings with the private sector, the CAG already commission. has the powers to examine and report on the use that such bodies are making of public funds. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I thank the Father of the House for that intervention, too. It is important that we have I am always willing to listen to concerns that the seen the practicalities of how these decisions are made powers of the CAG are inadequate, but I do not think and I do not think that it would be necessary to put that is the case in this instance. The amendment runs anything on the face of the Bill. the risk of being an unwanted intrusion, without offering any clear improvement to the ability of the CAG to Mr. Dunne: The Minister referred a moment ago to perform the task that Parliament has given him. the powers of the Public Accounts Commission being I listened very carefully to the arguments presented strengthened by the Bill. In the context of the exchange by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North, but I that we have just had on the point that I made earlier, am not convinced that they are necessary and I hope will she reflect on how that will be achieved if the new that he will withdraw his amendment. board of the NAO is enhanced or enlarged with more non-executive members and a new chairman? Surely Kelvin Hopkins: I give notice that I shall seek leave to much of the advisory role that the commission has been withdraw amendment 68, but I want to make a few able to play in the relationship with the Comptroller remarks in response to the debate. First, I thank my and Auditor General will now be supplanted by the hon. Friend the Minister for her kind remarks about my board, in which case the powers of the commission will health: it is improving but it is not quite there yet. be reduced. The amendment has provoked a debate, and that is Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I do not agree. Although we important. I was particularly impressed by the speech are reforming it and making the NAO more accountable, from the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), there is still a very powerful role for the commission, the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee. I thought which will be holding these people to account. We have it was clear, strong and impressive, and it is good to demonstrated what the commission has done to enable restate these matters. I know that many people in this us to get to this stage. I still envisage that it will play a Committee share his view; I certainly do, and my intention powerful role in the future. with the amendment was to maximise the strength of May I move on to amendment 78? We all recognise the CAG and the NAO—I did not want to restrict that the Comptroller and Auditor General should have either of them in any way. That intention was most true access to the information that he needs to be able to of amendment 78, which the Minister said was access documents. I think that we have heard that he impracticable and unnecessary. However, there was an already has a considerable power to get to the documents argument to be had and a point to be made, and I thank that he needs, but amendment 78 would result in a the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) for considerable extension of his reach that is not necessary giving what I was saying a degree of support. or justified at this stage. I am absolutely passionate in my belief that we must make sure that the strength of the legislature in relation 5.30 pm to the Executive is maintained—and, indeed, improved, The CAG already has a statutory right of access to as I do not think that it is strong enough now. The roles documents held by, or under the control of, not only of the CAG and the NAO play a crucial part in that. Government Departments but also a wide range of I like to think that I have provoked a useful debate, other public bodies and bodies that are in receipt of and that I have made some points that needed to be substantial Government funds. However, the purpose made. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. of this access is to allow him to audit effectively the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. accounts of Government Departments and to carry out value-for-money examinations with access to all relevant Clause 37 ordered to stand part of the Bill. information. These powers allow him to ensure that public money has been used for the purposes approved by Parliament and report on whether it has been well Clause 38 used. Allowing the CAG access to the books of thousands STATUS OF THE COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR of individual suppliers in the way proposed is another GENERAL ETC matter altogether, and would require very clear justification. Question proposed, That the clause stand part of Thousands of non-governmental organisations and private the Bill. companies provide services to the Government. The amendment could harm the relationship between the Mr. Gauke: Clause 38 deals with the status of the Government and their suppliers. Comptroller and Auditor General. Subsection (8) highlights Many Government suppliers are small businesses or and signposts the provisions in clause 43 and schedule 6, charities that are financed to fulfil Government policies. and in clause 44 and schedule 7. It may be helpful to the Others are larger accountancy and consultancy firms Committee and reduce the time that we need to debate that are used to provide expertise that the Government subsequent points if we address some concerns that do not have in-house. Suppliers of goods and services have been expressed about the new governance structure. 939 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 940 Governance Bill Governance Bill Those concerns have been raised in particular by Professor strengthening, and one of them is the NAO. Earlier David Heald, who is a former adviser to the Public today, we had an away-day to talk about how we can do Accounts Commission. Perhaps, in the spirit of the more, working together, to spread best practice from hon. Member for Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins), I can this Parliament to other Parliaments throughout the provoke a debate. world. It is very valuable work, and the Foreign and Professor Heald’s concern is that the role of Parliament Commonwealth Office, the Department for International may well be diminished by the creation of the NAO Development and Governments throughout the world board. In an article he stated: recognise it as such. Although we may think that we are dealing with legislation in isolation, we should not “This insertion of the NAO Board between the Public Accounts Commission and the CaAG creates dangers. Governments might forget that others will look at and, perhaps, imitate the use the chair and board as a means of curtailing the activities of structures that we are putting in place to provide for the the comptroller, particularly in the more judgmental value for NAO’s corporate governance over, I hope, the next money sphere and in relation to the outsourcing of audit work.” decades. In that context, it is right that we raise concerns His concern is that that body will have some influence about the proposal. on the CAG. The Chairman of the Public Accounts I do not have concerns in principle, because they were Committee made it clear how important it is that there well addressed earlier in the debate by my hon. Friend is independence for the CAG and how important, therefore, the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), the Chairman the appointment structure is. There is a role for the of the Public Accounts Committee. However, we must NAO in the approval of strategy and in the provision of recognise that, essentially, we are introducing a corporate resources. The concern is whether the Executive, through governance structure to an entity that is not a corporate: the chair of the NAO board, could influence the CAG. it is an entity with a chief executive, in the form of the The other concern is that if the chairman of the NAO Comptroller and Auditor General, who quite rightly board is strong, there is a risk of interference. If he or has enshrined in statute a degree of independence and she is weak, what is the point? Is this merely a distraction autonomy in terms of his work on audit and value for of management effort—of effort by the CAG—that money, as my hon. Friend and the right hon. Member could otherwise be focused on other things? I hope it is for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams), the Chairman of the helpful to the Committee for me to put those concerns Public Accounts Commission clearly explained. on the record and give the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee an opportunity to respond, although Mr. Alan Williams: May I clarify that it was in that in some respects he addressed those concerns in his very area of work, throughout the world and so on, that earlier remarks. some of the trouble arose? It is non-statutory work. In that respect, it is true that the board can circumscribe the activities, because that is part of its role and duty; Mr. Alan Williams: Under the Bill, the CAG retains however, it must not and cannot interfere with the his absolute discretion in relation to his statutory duties. statutory duties. It cannot endanger his statutory duties at all. Mr. Dunne: I completely understand that point and Mr. Gauke: Indeed. The Father of the House states am grateful for that clarification. Indeed, as the Father the essence of that case. The alternative case, as advocated of the House has just made clear, the purpose of the by Professor Heald, is that there is still a body that has proposals was to deal with deficiencies in the oversight influence with respect to the provision of resources in and scrutiny of two simple things—the expenses and establishing the strategy for the NAO, and that that the duration of appointment of the Comptroller and body could be used to influence. The Father of the Auditor General. To deal with those two relatively House rightly makes the argument against that and I minor aspects, however, we have this substantial piece suspect that the Committee will be satisfied by that, but of legislation, and a new panoply of corporate governance it is helpful to put it on the record and for him to put the that will be injected into the NAO. counter-argument. All I seek to do is point out to the Minister that we As hon. Members have said, we are dealing with an are establishing a panoply of corporate governance that important organisation. Other countries often look to could lead to confusion in the NAO, when all that is what we do as an example of an effective means of required is the scrutiny of those two aspects: the longevity scrutinising public expenditure. We must get it right, of appointment, about which there is no disagreement because it is important both in the UK and internationally. at all; and, the board’s oversight of expenses and NAO The concern is that the private sector corporate governance organisation, which may be rather more demanding structure that we are putting place may not be appropriate than was intended of the organisation’s time. for the very particular needs that exist in this area. I am not endorsing that line of argument, but it should be David Howarth: The hon. Gentleman must have covered stated. I look forward to others addressing those concerns. the point by now, but will he clarify that he did not mean that there was any doubt, from the legislation’s Mr. Dunne: I endorse my hon. Friend’s tentative drafting, that the Comptroller and Auditor General’s concerns and shall start where he finished—on the functions of audit, examination and inspection, which extent to which international bodies look to the NAO are central to his job, would be in any way compromised? as a beacon of light in the scrutiny of public expenditure. They are specifically preserved by the drafting of schedule 7. I have personal experience of the issue from my time on the Public Accounts Committee and, latterly, as a governor Mr. Dunne: Indeed. If I have given the impression of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy. We that I am concerned about that, I would like to correct have entered the Westminster Consortium, a relationship it. The hon. Gentleman has made that clear, and I agree with several other parties that are involved in parliamentary with him. 941 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 942 Governance Bill Governance Bill 5.45 pm I want to put on the record an important point made Mr. Alan Williams: The hon. Gentleman is right in by Professor Heald. Let us think of the fantastical what he said about expenses. We virtually dealt with notion that the Government might put some sort of that by having the CAG look at the expenses proposals pressure on the chairman of the board to circumscribe and come to see me about them. However, the problem the independence of the CAG. That is extremely unlikely. of governance was not just about expenses—it was However, even if the Government attempted it, and about the staff of the organisation, who, as the Chair of even if the chairman listened to their advice, which is the Public Accounts Committee indicated, were dependent also extremely unlikely—why should he?—the CAG on the good will of the CAG for their advancement, could ignore it. I do not know where Professor Heald is salary increases and so on. There was a much wider and coming from. more dangerous governance problem that could damage Even if there were a problem, the CAG would have the organisation. the right of access straight to the commission. We are not circumventing the commission’s powers. It, not the Mr. Dunne: I am grateful for that clarification. I Government, sets the budget of the NAO. Say the CAG understand the need to put in place structures to help were to make critical remarks about the Government. the internal career progression for senior people in the Would the Government have any say over the budget of organisation, if that is what the right hon. Gentleman is the NAO? No. Uniquely for a Government body, its seeking to achieve. budget is set by an independent Committee of this I am not as concerned about what the role of the House, the Public Accounts Commission, which by the CAG will be in this new construct as about what the way is not the client of the NAO. The client of the NAO role of the chairman of the board will be. Of course, is the Public Accounts Committee, and that is why the there is already a chairman in place; he was appointed commission sets the budget. before the Bill was drafted, so although he may have had some idea of what would be in the legislation, he I am afraid that I have to put it on record—it is very took on the position without knowing for certain what important—that Professor Heald is wrong. We are not was involved. My concern—this comes back to the in any way circumscribing the independence of the definition in schedule 6 rather than clause 38—is about CAG, and I am glad that we have had this debate so that how the chairman is going to find a worthwhile function we can put that on the record. for himself in chairing a board where he has very little Sarah McCarthy-Fry: It is indeed important that we power other than to check the expenses of the chief have had this debate and put that on record. Of course, executive. the Public Accounts Commission took evidence from Mr. Leigh: Perhaps I can explain how the National Professor Heald and disagreed with him. The CAG will Audit Office will work as a corporate entity. As such, it continue to have complete independence. The recruitment will be constituted as a board comprising five non-executive of the chair is intended to enable the appointment of a members, including its chair, and four executive members, strong adviser to support and challenge the CAG, but it including the Comptroller and Auditor General, who will not be the job of the chair to hold the CAG to will also be its chief executive. The board’s role, in account. That, of course, is the job of the commission. essence, will be to develop a strategy for the office as a The clause ensures that the CAG will continue to be whole, not a strategy for audit judgments or to tell the independent of outside influence and interference, as is CAG what to investigate: that is absolutely clear. The currently enshrined in the National Audit Act 1983, the board’s role will be to secure funding for the Public relevant provisions of which the clause reproduces. Accounts Commission, to monitor the delivery of the As the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, overall strategy and to report publicly on what is being the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), achieved. mentioned, schedule 7 provides that the NAO and the As I have already said—but it is worth putting it on CAG should jointly prepare a strategy for the approval the record because Professor Heald has made these of the commission. That strategy is to set out the comments—the CAG’s statutory audit responsibilities national audit functions, a plan for the use of resources are completely ring-fenced; they are not transferred to and a maximum amount of resources to be provided by the board. The board has nothing to say about or to do the NAO in a particular financial year. It is for the CAG with his statutory audit functions. The Bill will merely to decide what resources are needed for his core statutory ensure that in future these activities are carried out functions, and the NAO has to provide him with those within the governance of the NAO as a whole, as a resources. The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the fact modern and robust organisation. The relationship with that the relationship between the NAO and the CAG the CAG and the board will be regulated by code, will be set out in a code of practice, which must be which, under the terms of the Bill, will be approved by approved by the commission. the Public Accounts Commission. We have had a useful debate, and we have all managed I believe that the CAG—this is what he has told to get on record the importance of the complete discretion me—will benefit from the engagement of non-executives. and independence of the CAG. Indeed, in so far as has been possible, the CAG has started to operate the new arrangements on a voluntary Question put and agreed to. basis. The non-executives have already been appointed, Clause 38 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. and I understand from the CAG that they have already made a helpful contribution to the development of the Clause 39 strategy. In relation to the establishment of the NAO as a corporate entity, I am satisfied that sufficient safeguards PROVISION OF SERVICES are in place to reconcile sound governance with audit Question proposed, That the clause stand part of independence. the Bill. 943 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 944 Governance Bill Governance Bill David Howarth: I want to ask about the necessity of He should lead the way in moves towards scrutiny of this clause. The Father of the House might correct me, public spending, which should include spending relating but I do not remember its being referred to in the Public to him. Accounts Commission’s report. If we have time—time is short again today—I hope Whenever one sees a clause that creates powers to do we can have a longer debate on the wider issue of the something that has been done for a very long time, it transparency of public spending when we discuss part 8 sets alarm bells ringing. May I ask the Minister whether of the Bill, but to ensure that the CAG is above suspicion, there is any doubt that the CAG has the power to enter such information should be in the public domain. into the type of agreement referred to in the clause, or any doubt about whether anything done in the past is Mr. Alan Williams: The CAG already submits his valid? expenses to me as Chairman of the commission and publishes them on a six-monthly basis which, we are Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I am happy to respond to the assured, goes further than for any other public servant. hon. Gentleman. The clause does not set out a new He is therefore already ahead of the game elsewhere in power. In the past the CAG has relied on his legal Whitehall. powers as a natural person and corporation sole to Mr. Gauke: The Father of the House makes a good enter into agreements and provide non-statutory services. point—the CAG is further ahead. On the whole, we The clause puts that on a statutory footing, and we do believe there should be greater transparency in public not consider that that will add to or restrict the current spending, and the CAG could be yet further ahead. I powers of the CAG, although some of the services accept that he submits expenses to the Father of the provided under that power will now require the prior House in his role as Chairman of the Public Accounts approval of the NAO. That is under a later provision of Commission, but by putting them in the public domain the Bill. we would prevent any repetition of what happened with Sir John Bourn, even though such information goes David Howarth: In a way that is a rather disturbing into the public domain every six months. answer, because clause 38 already states: Our proposal is a matter of going further. As a rule, “The Comptroller and Auditor General continues by that name to be a corporation sole.” we think information on how public money is spent should be in the public domain and published online. I am still concerned about what the precise necessity is The CAG in particular needs to be above suspicion. for the clause. It might be a belt-and-braces approach, but I still cannot see why it is necessary. To avoid—I hope—the need for a separate stand part debate, clause 40 states: Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I think “belt and braces” is “P’s package is to be determined jointly by the Prime Minister probably an appropriate description! The CAG carries and the” out a huge range of important work in addition to Chairman statutory responsibilities: auditing international institutions; “of the Committee of Public Accounts before the start of the consultancy on public audit; and providing support to appointment.” other Select Committees. The clause is just a general There is a great deal of flexibility within the clause, statutory power to carry out such work under the new which is welcome and sensible, because there are dangers arrangements. in being too prescriptive, depending on the nature of Question put and agreed to. the CAG candidate. However, we are lucky enough to Clause 39 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. have the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee in the Chamber, and perhaps he is in a position to say something further on the thinking behind the package. Clause 40 For example, there has been talk about linking it to the salary of the Treasury permanent secretary or the Lord REMUNERATION PACKAGE OF THE COMPTROLLER AND Chief Justice. Historically, there was a link with High AUDITOR GENERAL Court judges. We have to recognise that we want to get the right person, and pay in the private sector for audit Mr. Gauke: I beg to move amendment 57, in work has increased substantially over the past 20 or clause 40, page 20, line 20, at end insert— 30 years or so. If the CAG is not paid enough, it will have a knock-on effect on everyone else working in the ‘(10) All remuneration, allowances and expenses in relation to P must be published monthly online.’. NAO. It is important to get the figure right so that we get the right people. In relation to the clause and the amendment, P refers to the Comptroller and Auditor General. As we have heard, the reform of the governance of the CAG has 6pm largely been driven, or provoked, by the difficulties It is also right that no performance-related pay is regarding Sir John Bourn’s expenses. As the Chairman included. It was recommended by the Tiner review, but of the Public Accounts Committee said, there was a it could lead to some sort of influence being put on the sticky patch. The amendment would address that in CAG. The proposals do everything they can to preserve perhaps the simplest way possible—by introducing much the independence of the CAG and that is welcome. greater transparency. Subject to those queries, we have no objection to the There is obviously a sensitivity with regard to the clause, other than to say that it would be strengthened CAG’s remuneration and other expenses, given that his by amendment 57 to put on a statutory basis the role is to identify waste in public spending. Therefore, it publication online of details of the remuneration, allowances seems right that he should be assessed with great scrutiny. and other expenses of the CAG. 945 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 946 Governance Bill Governance Bill Mr. Leigh: I am fairly relaxed about amendment 57. maximum of £273,000. In the interests of transparency, The CAG publishes details already of all his expenses I have no objection to saying that Mr. Morse is being and allowances. The commission had a discussion about paid £210,000 per annum, which is mid-range. The the pay. It is true that traditionally the CAG has received CAG’s remuneration is reported in the NAO annual the same salary as a High Court judge. We did not think report and accounts. Given that it will change only once that that was appropriate any more, because that is a year, in line with the annual uprating formula, I see no fixed and, in order to get a very high-calibre candidate, great advantage in requiring the NAO to report each it might be necessary to pay more than that. When we month on the salary. put in the advertisement, we said that the package The other information that hon. Members wish to be would be broadly in the permanent secretary range. published is available already on the NAO website, That is an attractive salary, and it is useful to do it that albeit only six-monthly, not monthly. I think that six way, because permanent secretaries are paid between months is fine, given that there has to be advance £140,000 and £230,000 a year. approval for it, so I do not think that the amendment There was some discussion about whether we should is necessary. I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider link the pay to that of the Lord Chief Justice. Personally, withdrawing it. I liked that idea, because I am convinced—having done my job for eight years—of the very great importance of Mr. Gauke: I am grateful to the Minister for providing the CAG. It would have sent a message if we had made the information about the current CAG. Given that he that link, but I suspect that the Treasury was not was previously a partner at PricewaterhouseCoopers, I entirely happy with that. So we reached a compromise. suspect that he has taken a substantial pay cut to It is not necessary for me to say in Committee what the perform this role. Nothing I say is meant to suggest that CAG actually earns—it is published, it is a good salary Mr. Morse has acted improperly. However, given that and we got a high-calibre candidate. we are legislating on the set-up for the CAG, it would be Finally, it is important that the CAG, like permanent helpful to specify on a statutory basis what the CAG secretaries, should not be subject to appraisal by anybody should do. That point should apply more widely within and he should not receive any bonuses. The best approach the public sector. Rightly, it now applies to Members of is the one that we have taken—with the Chairman of the House. It would improve the structure and lead the the Public Accounts Committee working with the Prime way, and it would not cause any harm or unwarranted Minister to set a good salary at the level of a permanent embarrassment to the CAG. I seek, therefore, to press secretary. Let us stick to that. It can go up every year by the amendment to a vote. inflation, but no bonuses should be paid and no appraisal Question put, That the amendment be made. made. That is part of the CAG’s independence. The Committee proceeded to a Division.

Mr. Dunne: I support amendment 57. It is obviously The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sylvia ironic that Members should be talking about the pay Heal): I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the and rations of others today, but in this case it is appropriate delay in the Aye Lobby. for the individual who will be the primary custodian of The Committee divided: Ayes 201, Noes 274. probity in public finance to be prepared to show the way in terms of transparency about pay and rations. We Division No. 239] [6.8 pm are all acutely aware of the increased transparency that will apply to public figures paid from the public purse, AYES who will have to make that information available. For Afriyie, Adam Burrowes, Mr. David the CAG to lead the way will set a good example to Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Burstow, Mr. Paul others in the public sector and will make his job easier. Alexander, Danny Burt, Alistair For all those reasons, this is an appropriate amendment. Amess, Mr. David Burt, Lorely Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Butterfill, Sir John Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Cable, Dr. Vincent Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Of course, we share everybody’s Atkinson, Mr. Peter Campbell, rh Sir Menzies wishes for greater transparency, and, as has been said Baldry, Tony Carmichael, Mr. Alistair by many Members, the CAG has been leading the way Barker, Gregory Carswell, Mr. Douglas on that. At an administrative level, the NAO already Baron, Mr. John Cash, Mr. William provides for advance approval of the CAG’s expenses Bellingham, Mr. Henry Clappison, Mr. James by a non-executive member of its audit committee, with Benyon, Mr. Richard Clark, Greg recourse to the Public Accounts Commission if necessary. Beresford, Sir Paul Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Expenses are discussed with the chairman of the NAO Binley, Mr. Brian Clegg, rh Mr. Nick audit committee in advance, and the CAG expenses Blunt, Mr. Crispin Cormack, Sir Patrick follow, as far as possible, permanent secretary rules. In Bone, Mr. Peter Crabb, Mr. Stephen addition, since 2007, the expenses and hospitality records Boswell, Mr. Tim Curry, rh Mr. David of all NAO senior managers, including the CAG, have Bottomley, Peter Davey, Mr. Edward been published on its websites for each six-month period. Brady, Mr. Graham Davies, David T.C. We welcome that commitment to transparency. Brake, Tom (Monmouth) Brazier, Mr. Julian Davies, Philip The CAG’s remuneration package is set before he Breed, Mr. Colin Davis, rh David takes office and then has effect for the full term of Brokenshire, James Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan office, subject only to uprating, which is permitted, but Brooke, Annette Dodds, Mr. Nigel only in line with a predetermined formula. As was Browne, Mr. Jeremy Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. mentioned, the current range for a civil service permanent Browning, Angela Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen secretary is fairly wide—a minimum of £140,000 to a Burns, Mr. Simon Duddridge, James 947 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 948 Governance Bill Governance Bill Duncan, Alan Main, Anne Willis, Mr. Phil Young, rh Sir George Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Maude, rh Mr. Francis Willott, Jenny Tellers for the Ayes: Evennett, Mr. David McCrea, Dr. William Wilson, Sammy Mr. Philip Dunne and Fabricant, Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Winterton, Ann Jeremy Wright Fallon, Mr. Michael McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Farron, Tim Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Featherstone, Lynne Moore, Mr. Michael NOES Foster, Mr. Don Moss, Mr. Malcolm Abbott, Ms Diane Dean, Mrs. Janet Fraser, Christopher Mulholland, Greg Ainger, Nick Denham, rh Mr. John Gale, Mr. Roger Mundell, David Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Dismore, Mr. Andrew Garnier, Mr. Edward Murrison, Dr. Andrew Allen, Mr. Graham Dobbin, Jim Gauke, Mr. David Newmark, Mr. Brooks Atkins, Charlotte Dobson, rh Frank George, Andrew O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Austin, Mr. Ian Doran, Mr. Frank Gidley, Sandra Öpik, Lembit Austin, John Durkan, Mark Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Ottaway, Richard Bailey, Mr. Adrian Eagle, Angela Goodman, Mr. Paul Paice, Mr. James Baird, Vera Eagle, Maria Goodwill, Mr. Robert Penning, Mike Banks, Gordon Efford, Clive Gove, Michael Pickles, Mr. Eric Barlow, Ms Celia Ellman, Mrs. Louise Gray, Mr. James Prisk, Mr. Mark Beckett, rh Margaret Engel, Natascha Green, Damian Pritchard, Mark Begg, Miss Anne Ennis, Jeff Greening, Justine Pugh, Dr. John Bell, Sir Stuart Farrelly, Paul Grieve, Mr. Dominic Redwood, rh Mr. John Benn, rh Hilary Fisher, Mark Gummer, rh Mr. John Reid, Mr. Alan Benton, Mr. Joe Fitzpatrick, Jim Hague, rh Mr. William Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Berry, Roger Flello, Mr. Robert Hammond, Mr. Philip Robathan, Mr. Andrew Betts, Mr. Clive Flint, rh Caroline Hancock, Mr. Mike Robertson, Hugh Blackman, Liz Flynn, Paul Hands, Mr. Greg Robertson, Mr. Laurence Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Follett, Barbara Harper, Mr. Mark Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Blears, rh Hazel Foster, Mr. Michael Harvey, Nick Rosindell, Andrew Blunkett, rh Mr. David (Worcester) Heald, Mr. Oliver Rowen, Paul Borrow, Mr. David S. Foster, Michael Jabez Heath, Mr. David Ruffley, Mr. David Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben (Hastings and Rye) Heathcoat-Amory, rh Russell, Bob Brennan, Kevin Francis, Dr. Hywel Mr. David Sanders, Mr. Adrian Brown, Lyn Gapes, Mike Hemming, John Scott, Mr. Lee Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Gerrard, Mr. Neil Hendry, Charles Selous, Andrew Bryant, Chris Gilroy, Linda Herbert, Nick Shapps, Grant Buck, Ms Karen Goggins, rh Paul Hoban, Mr. Mark Shepherd, Mr. Richard Burden, Richard Goodman, Helen Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Simmonds, Mark Butler, Ms Dawn Griffith, Nia Hollobone, Mr. Philip Simpson, Mr. Keith Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Griffiths, Nigel Holmes, Paul Skinner, Mr. Dennis Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Grogan, Mr. John Horam, Mr. John Smith, Chloe Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Gwynne, Andrew Horwood, Martin Smith, Sir Robert Cairns, David Hain, rh Mr. Peter Howard, rh Mr. Michael Soames, Mr. Nicholas Campbell, Mr. Alan Hall, Mr. Mike Howarth, David Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hall, Patrick Howarth, Mr. Gerald Spicer, Sir Michael Caton, Mr. Martin Hamilton, Mr. David Howell, John Stanley, rh Sir John Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Hughes, Simon Streeter, Mr. Gary Challen, Colin Hanson, rh Mr. David Huhne, Chris Stuart, Mr. Graham Chapman, Ben Harman, rh Ms Harriet Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Swayne, Mr. Desmond Clapham, Mr. Michael Havard, Mr. Dai Hunter, Mark Swire, Mr. Hugo Clark, Ms Katy Healey, rh John Hurd, Mr. Nick Syms, Mr. Robert Clark, Paul Henderson, Mr. Doug Jack, rh Mr. Michael Tapsell, Sir Peter Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Jackson, Mr. Stewart Taylor, Mr. Ian Clarke,rhMr.Tom Heppell, Mr. John Jones, Mr. David Taylor, Dr. Richard Clelland, Mr. David Hesford, Stephen Kawczynski, Daniel Teather, Sarah Clwyd, rh Ann Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Keetch, Mr. Paul Thurso, John Coaker, Mr. Vernon Heyes, David Key, Robert Timpson, Mr. Edward Coffey, Ann Hodge, rh Margaret Kirkbride, Miss Julie Tredinnick, David Connarty, Michael Hood, Mr. Jim Knight, rh Mr. Greg Turner, Mr. Andrew Cook, Frank Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Kramer, Susan Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Cooper, Rosie Hope, Phil Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Vaizey, Mr. Edward Cousins, Jim Hopkins, Kelvin Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Vara, Mr. Shailesh Crausby, Mr. David Howarth, rh Mr. George Lamb, Norman Viggers, Sir Peter Creagh, Mary Howells, rh Dr. Kim Laws, Mr. David Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Cruddas, Jon Humble, Mrs. Joan Leech, Mr. John Wallace, Mr. Ben Cryer, Mrs. Ann Iddon, Dr. Brian Leigh, Mr. Edward Waterson, Mr. Nigel Cummings, John Illsley, Mr. Eric Lewis, Dr. Julian Webb, Steve Cunningham, Mr. Jim Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Whittingdale, Mr. John Cunningham, Tony James, Mrs. Siân C. Lidington, Mr. David Willetts, Mr. David Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire Jenkins, Mr. Brian Luff, Peter Williams, Mark David, Mr. Wayne Johnson, rh Alan Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Williams, Mr. Roger Davidson, Mr. Ian Johnson, Ms Diana R. Maclean, rh David Williams, Stephen Davies, Mr. Dai Jones, Mr. Kevan 949 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 950 Governance Bill Governance Bill Jones, Lynne Palmer, Dr. Nick Wright, Mr. Anthony Tellers for the Noes: Jones, Mr. Martyn Pearson, Ian Wright, David Helen Jones and Joyce, Mr. Eric Plaskitt, Mr. James Wright, Dr. Tony Mr. Bob Blizzard Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Pope, Mr. Greg Keeble, Ms Sally Pound, Stephen Question accordingly negatived. Keeley, Barbara Prentice, Bridget Keen, Alan Prentice, Mr. Gordon Clause 40 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Keen, Ann Primarolo, rh Dawn Clause 41 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Kelly, rh Ruth Prosser, Gwyn Kemp, Mr. Fraser Purchase, Mr. Ken Kennedy, rh Jane Purnell, rh James Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Clause 42 Kidney, Mr. David Reed, Mr. Andy Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Reid, rh John EMPLOYMENT ETC OF A FORMER COMPTROLLER AND Knight, rh Jim Robertson, John Kumar, Dr. Ashok Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey AUDITOR GENERAL Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Rooney, Mr. Terry Lammy, rh Mr. David Roy, Lindsay David Howarth: I beg to move amendment 29, page 20, Laxton, Mr. Bob Ruane, Chris line 33, leave out ‘specified person’ and insert ‘Advisory Lazarowicz, Mark Ruddock, Joan Committee on Public Appointments’. Lepper, David Ryan, rh Joan Levitt, Tom Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad TheFirstDeputyChairman:Withthisitwillbeconvenient Linton, Martin Seabeck, Alison todiscussthefollowing:amendment30,page20,line35,leave Lloyd, Tony Shaw, Jonathan out subsection (3). Love, Mr. Andrew Sheerman, Mr. Barry Lucas, Ian Sheridan, Jim Amendment 31, page 20, line 36, leave out subsection (4). Mackinlay, Andrew Simon, Mr. Siôn Mactaggart, Fiona Slaughter, Mr. Andy David Howarth: The amendments relate to discrepancies Malik, Mr. Shahid Smith, rh Mr. Andrew between the contents of the Bill and the Public Accounts Mallaber, Judy Smith, Ms Angela C. Commission report. I want to give the Government an Mann, John (Sheffield, Hillsborough) opportunity to explain the difference between the two. Marris, Rob Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Amendments 29 and 30 are simply about who is to be Marsden, Mr. Gordon Smith, Geraldine consulted before the Comptroller and Auditor General McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, rh Jacqui is allowed to undertake any further employment after McCabe, Steve Snelgrove, Anne the end of his period in office. The commission said that McCafferty, Chris Soulsby, Sir Peter McCarthy, Kerry Southworth, Helen the Advisory Committee on Public Appointments had McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Spellar, rh Mr. John to be consulted, whereas the Bill says that some “specified McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Starkey, Dr. Phyllis person” who will be McDonagh, Siobhain Stewart, Ian “specified from time to time by the Commission” McDonnell, John Straw, rh Mr. Jack must be consulted. The Bill is therefore less specific McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Stringer, Graham than the recommendation from the commission. McGovern, Mr. Jim Stuart, Ms Gisela McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Taylor, Ms Dari Clearly, the provision is important, and public confidence McIsaac, Shona Taylor, David in the office of Comptroller and Auditor General must McKenna, Rosemary Thomas, Mr. Gareth be maintained. It is possible for conflicts of interest McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Thornberry, Emily apparently to arise in almost any sort of future Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Tipping, Paddy employment—not just in organisations previously subject Meale, Mr. Alan Todd, Mr. Mark to the audit powers of the Comptroller and Auditor Merron, Gillian Touhig, rh Mr. Don General, to which the rest of the clause applies, but Michael, rh Alun Trickett, Jon those in the private sector. My first question is “Why Miliband, rh Edward Truswell, Mr. Paul has that change been made?” Miller, Andrew Turner, Dr. Desmond Mitchell, Mr. Austin Turner, Mr. Neil Moffatt, Laura Ussher, Kitty 6.30 pm Mole, Chris Vaz, rh Keith My second question relates to an even bigger difference Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Walley, Joan between the commission’s recommendation and what is Morden, Jessica Waltho, Lynda Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Ward, Claire proposed in the Bill. It concerns circumstances in which Mountford, Kali Wareing, Mr. Robert N. the Comptroller and Auditor General, after leaving Mudie, Mr. George Watts, Mr. Dave office, proposes to take up employment with a body Mullin, Mr. Chris Whitehead, Dr. Alan that has previously been within his or her jurisdiction Munn, Meg Wicks, rh Malcolm for the purposes of audit. The Bill imposes an absolute Murphy, Mr. Denis Williams, rh Mr. Alan ban on such appointments for a limited period of two Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Williams, Mrs. Betty years. Naysmith, Dr. Doug Wills, rh Mr. Michael The commission, taking a much stricter view, suggested Norris, Dan Wilson, Phil a lifelong ban, stating: O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Winnick, Mr. David “It is obviously essential that subsequent employment could O’Hara, Mr. Edward Winterton, rh Ms Rosie not be seen as a reward for actions taken while C&AG, and for Olner, Mr. Bill Wood, Mike that reason there should be a lifetime prohibition on a C&AG or Osborne, Sandra Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun former C&AG accepting any post in any body which the NAO Owen, Albert Woolas, Mr. Phil has audited or which is in the gift of the Government.” 951 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 952 Governance Bill Governance Bill Given the very proper concerns that have been expressed After two years, a former CAG must take advice throughout the debate about the independence of the from a person nominated by the Public Accounts Comptroller and Auditor General and the commission’s Commission before taking up other employment of a clear recommendation of a lifetime ban, I simply ask kind specified by the commission. If amendment 31 is the Government why they have opted for such a short approved, the two-year ban will be removed. The effect period. of that will be to impose, through subsections (5) and (6), a lifetime restriction on public sector employment Mr. Alan Williams: The proposal relating to the for a former CAG. The commission originally advisory committee is certainly what we originally recommended that a former CAG should not be eligible recommended. I think it was then suggested that there at all to take up other employment in the public sector might be a more appropriate body at the time, and that after their term of office. It later recommended a five-year the arrangement should therefore be left open. It was ban. As was said by the Father of the House, the legal not a case of precluding what had been proposed originally; advice cautioned there was a real risk that a permanent it was merely a case of leaving things open so that a ban on public sector employment would be found indirectly decision could be made at the time. discriminatory on age grounds. We considered the lifetime ban, along with various The Government accept the importance of the CAG’s other options. The Treasury’s advice was that a lifetime independence, but we think that any restraints on future ban would be an infringement of human rights and was employment must be proportionate and within the law. disproportionate, but also that it would deter younger A lifetime ban goes much further than what is required applicants looking 10 years ahead who might feel that to protect the CAG’s independence since it is hard to their options would be severely limited when they retired. believe that a serving CAG could be influenced in any real sense while in office by a distant and, by its nature, Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As we have established this highly uncertain prospect of remunerated work. Moreover, afternoon, the office of the Comptroller and Auditor such a ban is likely to deter candidates, particularly General was set up to hold Government to account. We younger ones, from applying for the post of CAG, have legislation that enshrines in law a requirement to which is not in anyone’s interests. ensure that the Comptroller and Auditor General is, As I have said, there is a real risk that a permanent and is seen to be, independent of any and all outside ban on public sector employment would be found indirectly influence, particularly that of the Executive. The discriminatory on age grounds. Moreover, if such an arrangements for appointment, remuneration and removal infringement were found, it is unlikely that it could be from office in the national audit provisions of the Bill defended as being reasonably necessary and objectively are intended to ensure that external considerations cannot justifiable. A lifetime ban is therefore neither necessary influence the judgments that the Comptroller and Auditor nor desirable. General needs to make in scrutinising the Government’s use of public resources on behalf of the House of On amendments 29 and 30, the 15th report of the Commons. Public Accounts Commission recommended a lifetime That sets clause 42 in context. Let me now turn to the ban on former CAGs accepting any post in any body amendments, beginning with amendment 31. Clause 37, that the National Audit Office has audited or which is to which the Committee agreed earlier, limits the in the gift of Government. It was in this context that the Comptroller and Auditor General’s term of office to a commission considered that some conflicts of interest maximum 10-year single term. It is likely, therefore, that could arise over posts in the private sector with, for a Comptroller and Auditor General could have a lengthy example, defence contractors or other suppliers to the working life once he had left office. Mindful of that, the public sector. The commission therefore recommended Government have put in place measures to ensure that that the CAG should consult what has been called the the hope of future employment could not influence a “Advisory Committee on Public Appointments”. In Comptroller and Auditor General’s judgments while in fact, the correct title of the body is the Advisory Committee office. That consideration was also important to the on Business Appointments. Public Accounts Commission, from whose proposals Subsection (2) allows the Public Accounts Commission the provision derives. to nominate a person to advise former CAGs on taking The CAG needs to focus all his efforts on carrying up future offices or appointments. The advantage of the out his role without fear or favour right through to the current drafting is that it allows the Public Accounts end. Clause 42 therefore restricts a former CAG from Commission to decide which person to consult depending working for the Crown or providing services to persons on the circumstances at the time. It is therefore capable acting on behalf of the Crown for a period of two years of adapting to future changes, for example should the after they cease to be CAG. name or responsibilities of the adviser change. That advantage should be obvious to Members already since, Mr. Tyrie: Will the definition of working for the in attempting to be more specific, the amendment names Crown be the same as the definition that will be used for a body that does not exist. There would, of course, be determining who is a civil servant under the civil service nothing to stop the commission specifying that the clauses of the Bill? advice should be taken from the chair of the advisory committee if it so wished. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Off the top of my head, I Turning briefly to Amendment 30, if subsection (3) cannot guarantee that, but I will endeavour to get a were to be deleted, as proposed, not only would the response to the hon. Gentleman before I finish speaking; Public Accounts Commission be unable to specify the alternatively, I will write to him. adviser, but it would be unable to specify the description 953 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 954 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Sarah McCarthy-Fry] Clause 45 of offices, positions, agreements or arrangements. NAO’S EXPENDITURE Therefore, a side effect of the amendment would be to create uncertainty about which positions are covered by Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I beg to move amendment subsection (2). 41, page 21, line 25, leave out ‘must’ and insert With that explanation, I hope the hon. Member for ‘and the Comptroller and Auditor General must jointly’. Cambridge (David Howarth) will consider withdrawing Clause 45 sets out the arrangements for the NAO’s his amendment. expenditure and the approval of its estimates. Government amendment 41 is a minor amendment, which provides David Howarth: Yes, of course I will seek leave to for the CAG to prepare the NAO estimates jointly with withdraw amendment 29, and I thank the Government the NAO. The Bill already provides that the estimate, and the Father of the House for the explanation offered once prepared, will be presented to the Public Accounts as to the change. It makes sense for this provision to be Commission jointly by the CAG and the chair of the more flexible and to take into account the chance that NAO. the appropriate body to consult might change. Amendment 41 agreed to. I shall not be pressing amendment 31 to a Division Clause 45, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. either, but the explanation that the Minister offered is slightly puzzling, in that the chances of this indirect 6.45 pm discrimination happening and affecting anybody are Clauses 46 to 49 ordered to stand part of the Bill. remote. As I understand it, the argument put forward Schedule 8 agreed to. was that as a younger person would face a longer ban, in terms of years, than an older person, disproportionately Schedule 9 more younger people, as opposed to older people, would be put off and that would therefore qualify as indirect CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS RELATING TO PART 7 discrimination on age grounds against the young. I suppose that is theoretically possible in some remote Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I beg to move amendment 42, circumstance, but it does not strike me as the most page 71, line 20, at end insert— obvious discrimination case that anyone would bring, ‘Government of Wales Act 2006 (c. 32) especially when one considers the consequence of bringing 22A In paragraphs 5 and 8 of Schedule 5 after “Comptroller and such a case for one’s career. Auditor General” insert “or the National Audit Office”.’. The reason for the two-year ban has not been entirely This is a minor and consequential measure. If part 7 explained. The Minister mentioned the possibility of a is enacted, certain functions carried out by the Comptroller five-year ban—I am not entirely clear about in what and Auditor General will in future be carried out by the circumstances the commission suggested a five-year new National Audit Office. The amendment will prevent ban—but she did not offer any particular reasoning as the provision of an Assembly measure from modifying to why the ban should be for two years, rather than for the functions of the National Audit Office without the five. Given that the whole point of this clause is to consent of the Secretary of State. A similar provision maintain public confidence in the neutrality and already applies in relation to the functions of the independence of the CAG, if anything we should err on Comptroller and Auditor General. the side of caution. Amendment 42 agreed to. Schedule 9, as amended, agreed to. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: We obviously obtained the views of the commission and considered them carefully. We Clause 50 ordered to stand part of the Bill. think that the two-year period achieves a sensible balance between the need to ensure the independence of the New Clause 24 CAG and the desire to allow a former CAG to continue their career in the private or public sector, if they so POWERS OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES: wish. The two-year period is based on that for Ministers AUDITOR GENERAL FOR WALES who wish to take up outside appointments. ‘(1) Schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006 (c. 32) is amended as follows. David Howarth: That explains things, and I thank the (2) In Part 1, under Field 14, insert— Minister. Obviously the issue here is whether someone “Matter 14.1 could be made such a big offer of such a big job and (1) The following aspects of the Auditor General’s terms of such a large salary that they might be tempted by it, appointment— even with a two-year delay. I recognise that that is somewhat unlikely, even in the public sector of today. (a) the period of the appointment; With that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. (b) salary, allowances and superannuation benefits; Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. (c) pensions and gratuities payable after a person has ceased to hold the office. Clause 42 ordered to stand part of the Bill. (2) The number of times a person may be appointed to the Clause 43 ordered to stand part of the Bill. office of Auditor General. Schedule 6 agreed to. (3) Restrictions on the other offices and positions which may Clause 44 ordered to stand part of the Bill. be held by the person who is the Auditor General; activities of a person who has held the office of Auditor General (but no longer Schedule 7 agreed to. does). 955 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 956 Governance Bill Governance Bill (4) Provision requiring the Auditor General— The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (a) to aim to do things efficiently and cost-effectively; (Mr. Wayne David): I beg to move, That the clause be (b) to have regard, as the Auditor General thinks read a Second time. appropriate, to the standards and principles that an expert professional provider of accounting or The First Deputy Chairman: With this it will be auditing services would be expected to apply. convenient to discuss Government amendment 43. (5) The authorisation of persons to exercise functions of the Auditor General on the Auditor General’s behalf (including Mr. David: New clause 24 will confer legislative during a vacancy in the office). competence on the National Assembly for Wales. Such provisions are commonly known as framework or measure- (6) The oversight or supervision of the Auditor General or of the exercise of the Auditor General’s functions. making powers. I want to apologise to the Committee that this framework power was not included in the Bill (7) The provision or use of resources for the purposes of the on its introduction, as the Government have committed Auditor General’s functions including (in particular)— to doing in respect of all framework powers. I regret (a) the employment and use of staff; that the technical nature of the provision meant that it (b) the procurement and use of services; did not prove possible to finalise it in time. The Government (c) the holding of documents or information; have, however, introduced the new clause at the first (d) the keeping of records. available opportunity and I am pleased that so many (8) The charging of fees or other amounts in relation to Members attended the briefing session on the provision functions of— that I held yesterday with the Welsh Minister, Andrew (a) the Auditor General, or Davies. (b) auditors appointed by the Auditor General under Mr. Gauke: The Minister says that the delay was due enactments. to a technical difficulty. Will he reassure the Committee (9) The restatement of any law relating to the Auditor that it was not due to Wales being forgotten? We know General.” that the Government’s relationship with the Principality (3) In Part 2, after paragraph 6, insert— is not what it was—Labour is no longer the most “6A (1) This paragraph applies to a provision of an Assembly popular political party in Wales—and I fear that this is Measure which— an example of Welsh neglect. (a) is a Matter 14.1 provision; Mr. David: I assure the hon. Gentleman that that is (b) provides for the enforcement of a Matter 14.1 not the case. Incidentally, the Labour party is back on provision or is otherwise appropriate for making a Matter 14.1 provision effective; top, as the recent opinion polls show. (c) is otherwise incidental to, or consequential on, a This measure is very technical, and we wanted to Matter 14.1 provision. ensure the maximum amount of consultation. That has now taken place, and we are satisfied with what we are “Matter 14.1 provision” means a provision which relates to Matter 14.1 (and section 94(7) applies for the purposes of this proposing. definition as it applies for the purposes of section 94). Mr. Gauke: I shall make a less partisan point. Does (2) The following provisions do not apply in relation to a this measure have any budgetary implications and, if so, provision to which this paragraph applies— where are the resources coming from? (a) paragraph 3 so far as it applies in relation to sections 145, 145A and 146A(1) of the Government of Wales Mr. David: There are no budgetary implications for Act 1998; this Government. Any budgetary implications would be (b) paragraph 6(1). in the hands of the Welsh Assembly Government. (3) Subject to sub-paragraph (4), a provision to which this The new clause adds a new Matter 14.1 to part 1 of paragraph applies cannot— schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006 in the (a) modify or confer power by subordinate legislation to field of public administration. It also inserts new modify paragraph 3 of Schedule 8, or paragraph 6A into part 2 of schedule 5 to the 2006 Act (b) give or confer power by subordinate legislation to give to modify the general restrictions on the Assembly’s any role to a committee of the Assembly. competence. (4) Sub-paragraph (3) does not limit any role which may be The competence conferred by Matter 14.1 would given to a committee of the Assembly which meets the allow the National Assembly to pass legislation, known requirements in sub-paragraph (5) (whether established by virtue as an Assembly measure, to put in place new arrangements of a provision to which this paragraph applies or otherwise). for the Auditor General for Wales and the Wales Audit (5) The requirements are— Office. These arrangements are comparable to the ones (a) none of the following may be a member of the set out in part 7 of the Bill for the Comptroller and committee— Auditor General and the National Audit Office. However, (i) the First Minister or any person designated to the Assembly may decide on different arrangements exercise functions of the First Minister; within the scope of the competence conferred. (ii) a Welsh Minister appointed under section 48; In particular, the competence covers the Auditor (iii) the Counsel General or any person designated to General’s terms of appointment relating to tenure and exercise the functions of the Counsel General; remuneration, the number of times that a person may (iv) a Deputy Welsh Minister; be appointed Auditor General, the efficiency and (b) the committee must not be chaired by an Assembly effectiveness of the Auditor General, the other positions member who is a member of a political group with that a serving or former Auditor General may hold, the an executive role.”.’—(Mr. David.) authorisation of other people to perform the Auditor Brought up, and read the First time. General’s functions on his or her behalf, oversight and 957 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 958 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. David] Notwithstanding any Act of Parliament or Resolution of the House of Commons, the Auditor and Comptroller-General shall supervision of the Auditor General, and the provision not grant any credit to the Treasury under this Act unless he is of resources for the Auditor General and the charging satisfied that a relevant committee of the House of Commons has examined and approved the expenditure concerned for the of fees or other amounts. relevant year,”’.—(David Howarth.) It is right that the National Assembly should have the Brought up, and read the First time. power to decide what arrangements are appropriate in relation to the public auditor for the devolved bodies operating in Wales. The structure of public audit is David Howarth: I beg to move, That the clause be different in Wales compared with England, and the new read a Second time. clause gives the Assembly power to put in place It is something of a shame that a new clause that arrangements for the more effective oversight, supervision looks modest but would have the effect of changing our and accountability of the Auditor General for Wales. system of Government entirely comes before the Committee At the same time, it makes sure that the independence with only seven minutes to go before the knife. I therefore of the Auditor General’s operational audit work is do not expect that it will get a proper airing or any maintained. proper debate tonight. The Assembly will not be able to modify provisions in the Government of Wales Act 2006 that provide that The new clause deals with the control of expenditure the Auditor General is not subject to the direction or by the House before that expenditure is made, as opposed control of the Assembly or the Assembly Government. to the auditing of expenditure once the money has been That strikes the right balance between allowing the spent, which we tend to be rather better at. It is emblematic Assembly flexibility to put in place arrangements that it that most of this afternoon’s debates on this part of the considers appropriate for Wales, and preventing any Bill have been about the Comptroller and Auditor General erosion of the important principle of audit independence. in his role as an auditor, rather than in his very important role as Comptroller. New paragraph 6A in part 2 of schedule 5 provides for an exception to the prohibition on the ability of The Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1866, Assembly measures to modify certain provisions of the which is one of the great Gladstonian reforms of the Government of Wales Acts 1998 and 2006. That will 19th century, puts on the Comptroller the job of making enable those Acts to be amended by Assembly measure, sure that Government expenditure drawn from the if the purpose of the amendment is about putting in Consolidated Fund is authorised by statute or by a place the new governance arrangements for the Auditor resolution of the House. It is fundamental to the system General. of supply whereby the House, in theory, controls The competence would also enable the Assembly to Government expenditure that the Comptroller has that job. transfer functions currently undertaken by its Audit This should matter because policy debates are intimately Committee relating to consideration of the estimate of connected with expenditure. A great American political the audit reports of the Auditor General by another scientist, Aaron Wildavsky, once said that policy is Committee of the Assembly. However, it could do so expenditure and expenditure is policy. That is because a only if the Committee to which the functions are transferred policy that does not have any resources attached to it is is, like the Audit Committee, composed in a way that is generally just hot air, and any spending decision is, in independent of Welsh Ministers and the ruling reality, a decision about what to spend money on, as Administration. opposed to not spending money on something else, and The consequential Government amendment 43 amends therefore is a policy decision. the long title to include the proposed amendments to Over the past couple of centuries we have seen a great the Government of Wales Act 2006. decline in the practical control of the House over that I commend the new clause and the amendment to the sort of expenditure decision. There is no time tonight to House. go through the detailed history of the decline of the supply Question put and agreed to. procedure of the House. By 1896 most of the remaining New clause 24 accordingly read a Second time, and power of the House was removed by the Conservative added to the Bill. party when Mr. Balfour, who was Leader of the House, decided to change the procedure so that all the New Clause 19 Government’s supply requirements would be decided on one day in August, just in time for the grouse AMENDMENT OF EXCHEQUER AND AUDIT shooting season to start. DEPARTMENTS ACT 1866 The main purpose of the clause is to suggest to the ‘(1) The Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1866 is House—I am sure that the Government will not be amended as follows. interested—that it is now time to try in some way to (2) In section 13(1) after “applies”, insert “, subject to wrest back our control over Government expenditure section 15A,”. before it happens. An important consequence of the House’s giving up of its power over supply and (3) In section 14 at the beginning insert “Subject to section 15A”. expenditure is that it spends all its time talking about legislation instead. This problem is part of the wider (4) In section 15(1) after “applies”, insert “, subject to problem of there being far too much legislation. What section 15A,”. has filled the time that in previous centuries was taken (5) After section 15 insert— up with discussing Government expenditure before it “15A Authorisation by relevant committee of the House happened is legislation—new laws. That is what we talk of Commons about instead. 959 Constitutional Reform and 4 NOVEMBER 2009 960 Governance Bill I admit that the new clause would not make a vast Business without Debate difference in itself. We need to get hold not just of the annual process of Government expenditure, but of the comprehensive spending review—the multi-year framework DELEGATED LEGISLATION which is generally a process from which we are entirely excluded. Select Committees find themselves excluded Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): With the leave from that as well. of the House, we shall take motions 3 to 7 together. In local government, the systems for controlling Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing expenditure in advance are far better. Even the smallest Order No. 118(6)), parish council gives the elected representatives better information and more power over spending decisions than happens in the House. In the end that lack of SAVING GATEWAY ACCOUNTS control leads to worse policy. There is not time to go That the draft Saving Gateway Accounts Regulations 2009, into the details of what would be different if control which were laid before this House on 21 July, be approved. were different. I simply leave hon. Members with the thought that the House is withering in its power and in INCOME TAX public esteem, and that it will continue to wither until it takes back a role in the setting of policy. That is what That the draft Saving Gateway Accounts (No. 2) Regulations 2009, which were laid before this House on 7 July, be approved. the control of expenditure in advance is all about.

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I thank the hon. Member for CONSTITUTIONAL LAW Cambridge (David Howarth) for his contribution, That the draft Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) (No. 2) which reflects his passionate views that the House Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 20 July, be should have better scrutiny of Government spending approved. for future years. I know that that was one of the That the draft Government of Wales Act 2006 (Consequential themes of his speech on Second Reading, in which he Modifications, Transitional Provisions and Savings) Order 2009, said that serious reform was required of the way in which was laid before this House on 20 July, be approved. which Parliament relates to Government on money issues. PROVISION OF SERVICES The hon. Gentleman will know that the Government That the draft Provision of Services Regulations 2009, which published a memorandum in March containing were laid before this House on 12 October, be approved.—(Mary formal proposals to Parliament for better alignment Creagh.) between budgets, estimates and accounts. The Question agreed to. memorandum explained the plans to simplify the Government’s financial reporting to Parliament, ensuring that they report in a more consistent, transparent and REGIONAL SELECT COMMITTEE (LONDON) straightforward fashion on spending plans, estimates Motion made and Question put, and expenditure outcomes. That Ms Karen Buck, Jeremy Corbyn, Clive Efford, Siobhain The hon. Gentleman will know that an important McDonagh and Mr Andy Slaughter be members of the London plank in moving towards alignment is covered by part 8, Regional Select Committee.—(Mary Creagh.) on the transparency of Government financial reporting and, in particular, the inclusion in departmental estimates Hon. Members: Object. of resources used by designated bodies. On 3 July, the Liaison Committee responded to the memorandum on behalf of the other Select Committees, REGIONAL SELECT COMMITTEE (WEST and in its response it covered some of the same ground MIDLANDS) as the hon. Gentleman has. In particular— Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (2 November), 7pm That Mr David Kidney be discharged from the West Midlands Regional Select Committee and Mrs Janet Dean be added.—(Mary Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 3 November). Creagh.) The Chairman put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83D), That the new Hon. Members: Object. clause be added to the Bill. Debate to be resumed tomorrow. Question put and negatived. The Chairman then put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that REGIONAL SELECT COMMITTEE (SOUTH time (Standing Order No. 83D). WEST) Clause 51 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Resumption of adjourned debate on Question Clause 52 ordered to stand part of the Bill. (29 October), That Linda Gilroy be discharged from the South West Regional The Chairman left the Chair to report progress and ask Select Committee and Roger Berry be added.—(Mary Creagh.) leave to sit again (Programme Order, 3 November). The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Hon. Members: Object. Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. Debate to be resumed tomorrow. 961 Business without Debate 4 NOVEMBER 2009 962

PETITIONS who are members, former members or the personal Waste Plant (North East Derbyshire) representatives of deceased members of the Equitable Life Assurance Society. I have been handed 61 signatures 7.2 pm in support of the petition, and, Madam Deputy Speaker, you are probably aware that more than 400 former Natascha Engel (North-East Derbyshire) (Lab): I members and members of Equitable Life attended a should like to present a petition on behalf of my rally at Parliament today. constituents in Dronfield. The petition is supported by more than 700 individual letters. The petitioners request: The petitioners request: that the House of Commons urges the Government to uphold the constitutional standing of the Parliamentary Ombudsman by that the House of Commons urges the Secretary of State for complying with the findings and recommendations of her Report Communities and Local Government to do all in his power to upon Equitable Life and to act quickly so that policyholders oppose the building of this hazardous waste gasification and receive the justice that they have so long been denied. incineration plant and ensure that this proposed technology is not given permission to destroy a whole area of Chesterfield and I stand in support of this petition and present it to the North East Derbyshire. House. Following is the full text of the petition: Following is the full text of the petition: [The Petition of residents of Dronfield, and others [The Petition of residents of the constituency of Meriden Declares that a hazardous waste gasification/incineration in the West Midlands, plant is proposed to be built on the site of Sheepridge Declares that the petitioners either are or they represent Business Park, only a few miles away from Dronfield; or support members, former members or personal further declares that the technology proposed by the representatives of deceased members of the Equitable newly established company is untested and unproven; Life Assurance Society who have suffered maladministration notes that there are no long term case studies on the leading to injustice, as found by the Parliamentary health effects of these processes, while every day more Ombudsman in her report upon Equitable Life, ordered by and more evidence is coming to light of the harmful the House of Commons to be printed on 16 July 2008 and effects of airborne pollution from industry and traffic; bearing reference number HC 815; and further declares Believes that the site is too close to residents, with 19 schools that the petitioners or those whom they represent or and around 30,000 people living within just two miles of support have suffered regulatory failure on the part of the the proposed site; further notes that the site is in close public bodies responsible from the year 1992 onwards, but proximity to many farms, livestock, fisheries and allotments, have not received compensation for the resulting losses. meaning there is a real danger of dioxins entering the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of local food chain; further notes that the site is bordered by Commons urges the Government to uphold the constitutional greenbelt land and protected woodland, threatening the standing of the Parliamentary Ombudsman by complying devastation of all the wildlife in the area and risking with the findings and recommendations of her Report further contamination of the watercourses and food chain upon Equitable Life and to act quickly so that policyholders from the movement of wildlife in and around the site; receive the justice that they have so long been denied. further declares that the site is close to existing businesses And the Petitioners remain, etc.] that will move away, leading to hundreds of job losses and difficulties attracting any future investment; [P000408] Further notes that the waste, coming from a 30 mile radius, will need to travel past many schools, through Scallop Dredging, Cardigan Bay small villages and country lanes to reach the proposed site; believes this is unsafe, unnecessary and unacceptable; 7.4 pm further declares that residents have not been reassured by communications from Cyclamax, and do not trust the Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I have a petition company to be running such a hazardous process; and of 2,200 signatures on behalf of the Save Our Sea group considers that profit and money-making are being put based in the Ceredigion constituency. before public health and safety. The petition declares: The Petitioners therefore request that the House of The Petition of people of Ceredigion, Commons urges the Secretary of State for Communities Declares that dredging of the sea bed has been banned and and Local Government to do all in his power to oppose the restricted in several areas of the marine environment due to the building of this hazardous waste gasification and incineration proven damage that can be caused by intensive and large-scale plant and ensure that this proposed technology is not dredging; further declares that the increased use of dredges in given permission to destroy a whole area of Chesterfield Cardigan Bay has potentially caused severe damage to the marine and North East Derbyshire. environment and the habitats of the creatures living there. And the Petitioners remain, etc.] The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take all possible steps to encourage the [P000406] Welsh Assembly Government to limit the number of scallop Equitable Life (Meriden) dredging boats licensed to dredge for scallops in Cardigan Bay, based on scientific assessments to be carried out while an interim 7.3 pm ban is in place. Mrs. Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): I wish to And the Petitioners remain, etc. present a petition from residents of my constituency, [P000407] 963 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Pernicious Anaemia 964

Pernicious Anaemia is the case, a Schilling test, which measures the body’s ability to absorb vitamin B12 from the bowel, can Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House determine whether it is pernicious anaemia. However, do now adjourn.—(Mr. McAvoy.) the Schilling test is no longer widely available. For most people on a normal diet, especially the elderly, a Schilling 7.5 pm test is not thought necessary. Instead, a blood test is done to measure levels of vitamin B12. If the levels are Mrs. Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): I thank low, pernicious anaemia is presumed and treatment Mr. Speaker for giving me the opportunity to hold this started. However, the testing regime is not sufficient for debate. the diagnosis of all patients with pernicious anaemia. I am grateful to the Pernicious Anaemia Society for Typically, vitamin B12 deficiency is suspected when its help in preparing the debate. This small but ambitious an individual presents with megaloblastic anaemia. charity is based in my constituency and has members However, that may occur only in the most severely throughout the world who are working to bring attention vitamin B12-depleted individuals. As the Schilling test to this common but often misunderstood condition. is no longer widely available, and the other main diagnostic First, I should like to say a few words about pernicious signposts of low levels of serum B12 cannot be relied anaemia, its causes and consequences. The condition is upon, sufferers can have high levels of serum B12 and caused by a lack of vitamin B12. Vitamin B12 cannot still have pernicious anaemia. be produced or stored in the body, and deficiency is The intrinsic factor antibody test, which is used to caused by a failure to absorb vitamin B12 from the diet. determine whether the patient is able to absorb intrinsic Vitamin B12 is vital for the manufacture of new red factor B12 from food, is only about 30 per cent. accurate. blood cells. When it is in short supply, red blood cells A better method of determining whether a patient is are produced in smaller numbers, are abnormally large B12-deficient is based on their active B12 level, because in size—megaloblastic—and do not last as long as they only active B12 plays a part in the complex biochemistry. should; and anaemia develops. While the peak incidence If a patient’s active B12 level is low, he or she will still of pernicious anaemia occurs within the 60-plus have the symptoms of pernicious anaemia even though demographic, it can afflict anyone at any age. the total level of B12 will be above the lower threshold The condition has physiological and mental symptoms. for determining deficiency. There is a newly developed Common physical symptoms include tiredness, fatigue test that takes that into account and is widely used in or lethargy; a shortage of breath known as “the sighs”; Australia and Germany. Many people there who were a swollen tongue and feeling bloated; brittle, easily not previously considered to be B12-deficient now receive damaged nails; pins and needles; unaccountable sudden B12 injections, with considerable improvement to their diarrhoea; and an increased sensitivity to sound, scent quality of life. and taste. Common mental symptoms include “the As well as difficulties in diagnosis, there are a number fogs”—a lack of clarity and focus in everything the of other issues of concern to sufferers. Pernicious anaemia sufferer experiences—and irritability, impatience and, is treated in this country with injections of often, mood swings. In addition, when vitamin B12 is hydroxocobalamin, a form of vitamin B12. Patients low, the cells of the nervous and digestive systems may receive three injections a week for the first two weeks, be affected. Undiagnosed or untreated, the condition then one every three months for the rest of their life. can lead to damage to the central and peripheral nervous More frequent regimes may be used in sufferers who systems with separate symptoms and consequences in have been diagnosed late and have neurological damage. itself such as numbness in the limbs, especially the legs; The main concern for sufferers is that the UK practice vertigo; balance problems; inability to concentrate; and limits patients to an injection every three months, which confusion or forgetfulness. is not sufficient. In the 1960s the treatment was an The most common reason why pernicious anaemia intramuscular injection every month. That changed to sufferers develop nerve damage is that its insidious one every two months in the 1970s and one every three nature, coupled with its vague symptoms, can often lead months in the 1980s. The Pernicious Anaemia Society to a late diagnosis. Consequently, nerve damage has cannot find any evidence that those changes to the often occurred before pernicious anaemia has been prescription were related to new clinical research. diagnosed. The severity of the symptoms depends on People with pernicious anaemia have widely different how much damage has been done to the central nervous needs and respond differently to treatment. For some, system. Balance problems can make everyday tasks an injection every three months is adequate, but for such as showering, dressing and walking a challenge. others, weekly or even daily injections may be required. It is possible that these symptoms are irreversible, so In the UK, however, GPs on the whole stick to the diagnosis of pernicious anaemia needs to be quick and three-monthly injections and feel that they are adequate. accurate. However, there are problems with its timely They generally refuse to allow more frequent injections. and accurate diagnosis. The disease shares common That means that sufferers often find themselves looking symptoms with a number of other conditions, and the elsewhere for more regular sources of B12. fact that there is no single definitive test can often mean In the UK, vitamin B12 in injectable form is available that a diagnosis is delayed. Many sufferers are misdiagnosed only on prescription, under the Medicines Act 1968. It with conditions such as depression, multiple sclerosis, is, however, available over the counter in most European myalgic encephalomyelitis or chronic fatigue syndrome, countries and readily available using the internet. Many or with being totally well but feeling unwell. people with pernicious anaemia travel abroad to get For some sufferers, a simple blood test can diagnose top-up injections or order infusions over the internet. anaemia and an examination of the red blood cells can That situation is far from ideal, and I know that my determine whether they are larger than normal. If this hon. Friend the Minister will be horrified to learn about 965 Pernicious Anaemia4 NOVEMBER 2009 Pernicious Anaemia 966

[Mrs. Madeleine Moon] methylcobalamin. Monitoring such a regime would reveal whether it could be a modern way forward, in which it. It is also extremely expensive and fraught with danger. patients can opt for a treatment style that is similar to I am sure that I am not alone in feeling uncomfortable diabetic provision. It would be helpful if the Department with people ordering any medication over the internet. could support the creation of a charity helpline for Many people with pernicious anaemia also seek help sufferers, compile the statistics of current misdiagnosis from the private sector, from which B12 infusions can and create a referral service so that sufferers can find be bought. The form of B12 used is methylcobalimin, the correct medical attention quickly. an extremely pure form of the vitamin that can be The disease affects people in all right hon. and hon. injected straight into the bloodstream. The patient can Members’ constituencies. An early-day motion highlighting self-inject using the same needles used by diabetics. many of the issues raised, tabled by my hon. Friend the Many sufferers claim that if they return to their doctor Member for Bristol, North-West (Dr. Naysmith), has to request an additional dose of B12, they are offered received 73 signatures. I hope the Department considers antidepressants. However, B12 is a harmless vitamin acting on many of the issues that I have raised this with no side effects, and it is cheaper than antidepressants. evening. I also hope that it will agree to a future meeting The PAS argues that allowing sufferers to self-inject of officials and members of the PAS, so that their using insulin needles would free up valuable nursing concerns can be adequately addressed. time, saving money from the NHS budget, and provide 7.18 pm patients with a treatment regime based on need. It calculates that £20 million a year could be saved in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health nursing time by allowing patients to self-inject. (Ann Keen): May I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon) on securing this The PAS recently presented a petition to the Department debate, which is of course on an important subject? Her of Health via the No. 10 e-petition system, highlighting constituency has the honour of having the PAS in it, the problems faced by people with the condition. In its and I am aware of her work with society. She has taken response, the Department acknowledged: a very close interest in pernicious anaemia and has “Too often, people with long-term chronic conditions have previously tabled questions on behalf of patients who been made to fit themselves into the way care is provided locally, regardless of whether that meets their individual needs.” have that distressing condition. As my hon. Friend has so eloquently described the It went on to state: condition, I will not go into the details again, but there “Our changes to the NHS aim to deliver the right services are some rarer causes of vitamin B12 deficiency. The where they are needed, working with all involved agencies to root cause of pernicious anaemia, however, is the deficiency provide a seamless package of care.” of B12 due to the lack of what is known as the “intrinsic People with pernicious anaemia are being made to fit factor” needed for its absorption. in with a treatment that is imposed from the top down. The inability to absorb vitamin B12 orally means that The national service framework for long-term conditions, treatment in an injectable form is required, and because launched in March 2005, focuses on improving services the lack of the intrinsic factor cannot be reversed, for people with long-term conditions across England. It treatment must be continued for life. That is to avoid the states that comprehensive assessment and regular reviews problems associated with uncorrected anaemia as well of people’s problems should be held and that self-referral as the possibility of damage to the central nervous would allow people to refer themselves quickly back to system that can result from prolonged vitamin B12 services as their care needs change. However, that has deficiency. not materialised for people with pernicious anaemia. My hon. Friend mentioned the role of GPs. In common There are a number of ways that the Department of with a wide range of chronic conditions, the diagnosis Health could improve the care provided to sufferers of and treatment of pernicious anaemia is generally best pernicious anaemia, and a review of the disease’s symptoms, carried out at primary care level. It is for general diagnoses and treatment is needed. The current treatment practitioners to diagnose the condition, arrange for regime would benefit from a review relating to its efficacy blood tests and prescribe the treatment that they consider and cost-effectiveness. Modern, self-administered treatment most appropriate. General practice and primary care regimes that are available should be evaluated to save have increasingly showed themselves to be the preferred medical staff time and to provide a more efficient settings for discussing and deciding on such treatments, treatment regime based on patients’ needs. and patients’ preference has been supported by increased The misdiagnosis of pernicious anaemia could be investment by this Government in a wide range of reduced by launching an education campaign for general programmes to expand services locally. practitioners. It should also be made clear that the I recall my days as a district nurse when I provided current three-monthly injection cycle may not address this facility locally to one of my patients who was a pig the needs of every patient and that it should be more farmer. He was reluctant to come to the surgery, so the flexible. Any review could include a study investigating district nurse went to the pig farm. In fact, the patient the feasibility of a return to the monthly dose, which was very reluctant to leave the pigs, so—in true district was successfully administered with no side effect to a nurse style—my wellingtons came out of the boot of generation of sufferers in the 1960s. my car and I performed the service where the patient The review should consider the type of B12 that thought it most appropriate. I then went into the farmhouse could be used. Methylcobalamin, which is used in the to wash my hands and was given a cauliflower for my private sector, is a purer form of B12 that absorbs in the trouble. I remember those days with great warmth, but body with better results. The PAS would like sufferers the advancement in primary care has made it much who have a more severe form of pernicious anaemia to more possible for patients with chronic conditions to be have the option of self-injecting daily doses of B12 treated at home or very close to home. 967 Pernicious Anaemia4 NOVEMBER 2009 Pernicious Anaemia 968

It has been suggested that GPs are insufficiently and patients to decide, taking into account personal aware of the prevalence of pernicious anaemia that they circumstances, and professional knowledge and experience. may fail to diagnose the condition and that the Department Some patients might wish to play a greater role in their of Health should take steps to increase awareness. However, own care, and I would encourage that. The personal assessments of medical professionals and their awareness experiences of individual patients need to be a significant of conditions such as pernicious anaemia are not matters factor in these discussions and decisions about treatment. for the Department of Health. It would be for the The early-day motion calls for a review of the efficacy relevant specialist professional bodies, such as the Royal and cost effectiveness of current treatment for pernicious College of Pathologists, to provide guidance and anaemia. The Government established the National professional development on matters relating to Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence to provide haematology. The Department of Health has not issued authoritative, independent advice to the NHS on different any recent guidance to general practitioners on the health-related interventions and forms of care. That is diagnosis or treatment of pernicious anaemia. Nor has to increase fairness in access to treatments, to be a the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, national source of robust clinical guidance and to speed to whom the task has now been given. up the uptake of cost-effective treatments in the NHS. I am aware that some patients take the view that There is a clear process for the selection of topics for injections should be offered more frequently, or that referral to NICE’s work programme and final decisions other treatments should be offered, and that patients on that work programme are taken by Ministers. I may become understandably very distressed if they understand that a number of topic suggestions have believe that their individual needs are not being taken been made around the diagnosis and management of fully into account. Some of the examples that my hon. pernicious anaemia, including one from the PAS itself. Friend gave are very worrying. However, I do think that NICE is considering those proposed topics against its in this and in other cases, we must rely on GPs using published criteria for possible inclusion in future work. their training, professional judgement and the evidence However, I hope that my hon. Friend appreciates that available to them to decide what treatment they consider NICE cannot advise on every condition or aspect of appropriate, taking into account the particular needs of treatment, and that this topic will need to be considered the person concerned. I hope that the Pernicious Anaemia alongside all the other competing priorities for NICE Society stresses to its members that they must go to guidance. their GP and have a proper clinical assessment. The early-day motion calls for pernicious anaemia to I know of the work of the Pernicious Anaemia Society be included within the national service framework for in raising public awareness of pernicious anaemia and long-term conditions. As my hon. Friend is aware, we also of its proposals concerning diagnosis and treatment published the framework in 2005. It is a 10-year plan to of the condition. I am aware that the PAS organised a address inequities in access, a lack of integrated service parliamentary reception last week, and I apologise again provision, work force shortages—if there are any—and to my hon. Friend for being unable to attend. The variations in the quality of care across the country. The early-day motion in the name of my hon. Friend the framework focuses on neurological conditions, and its Member for Bristol, North-West (Dr. Naysmith) has quality requirements are based on evidence from services attracted over 70 signatures. It raises five main points for people with neurological conditions. That focus on and it may be helpful if I respond to each of these in neurology highlights and sets in a clear context issues turn, before covering the other points raised by my hon. that are also relevant to the millions of people living Friend the Member for Bridgend. with other long-term conditions, including pernicious The early-day motion states that there are fundamental anaemia. problems with the diagnosis and treatment of vitamin I understand that the early-day motion proposes that B12 deficiency and pernicious anaemia. When vitamin treatment for pernicious anaemia should be more flexible B12 deficiency has caused anaemia, its diagnosis is not and responsive to the needs of patients. The Government generally difficult, and I am not aware of significant are committed to supporting patients in taking control problems of under-recognition. What people sometimes of their own health and in the management of their say, however, is that they felt unwell for some time own care. I am aware that some patients with pernicious before developing anaemia, and they attribute that to anaemia might prefer to have more frequent injections the early stages of vitamin B12 deficiency. Although or other forms of vitamin B12 to be administered by that may be true, the difficulties of very widespread patients. Again, however, I am sure that my hon. Friend testing of the many patients with non-specific malaise will understand that those are matters for individual and tiredness that would be necessary to detect a few patients to discuss with their general practitioners; it is people with very early vitamin B12 deficiency make this not for the Department of Health to specify regimes of unlikely ever to be an appropriate policy. When anaemia care in general practice—thank goodness! is present, my understanding is that most patients respond The early-day motion also proposes that there should well to treatment through quarterly injections of vitamin be a review of symptoms, diagnosis and treatment. As I B12 and are able to get on with their lives, despite the have said, since coming into office in 1997, the Government inconvenience. I am aware of the discomfort of regular have established a series of national service frameworks treatment and the impact of the condition. I am told and other clinical strategies looking at diagnosis and that the injection is very painful because of the nature treatment of major diseases. Through the NSF approach, of what is being injected. we have substantially improved mortality rates and I am aware that some individuals with pernicious eased the burden of ill health caused by major diseases. anaemia do not believe that sufficient heed is paid to We recently announced our intention to produce a their particular wishes regarding the nature and frequency clinical service strategy for liver disease and we will of treatment. However, that is a matter for clinicians shortly be publishing a draft strategy for chronic obstructive 969 Pernicious Anaemia4 NOVEMBER 2009 Pernicious Anaemia 970

[Ann Keen] review of treatments for the condition and to the National Quality Board. I acknowledge my hon. Friend’s request pulmonary disease. However, we are aware that not for the society to meet officials and I will ask officials to every service area can be identified as a priority suitable arrange that at the earliest opportunity. for a national service framework or clinical service Most people who have developed pernicious anaemia strategy. That has been recognised in the establishment receive excellent support from their GPs in diagnosis, of the National Quality Board, which is a key element treatment and other forms of support. However, I cannot of the NHS next stage review led by Lord Darzi. All let this debate end without mentioning the district nurses, recommendations for service reviews or strategies must whom I believe will support their patients in the community now be considered by the National Quality Board, to the best of their ability and follow the example set by which will advise the Government. this Minister, because patients are patients, wherever This is a long overdue debate, which my hon. Friend they happen to be. has been requesting for some time. I congratulate her on Question put and agreed to. raising the subject. I also welcome the activities of the Pernicious Anaemia Society in raising awareness of the condition among the public and clinicians. The society 7.31 pm may wish to make representations to NICE about the House adjourned. 241WH 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Thalidomide 242WH

thalidomide was completely safe for pregnant women. Westminster Hall The Cohen committee never asked the company to prove that statement, despite the fact that all major Wednesday 4 November 2009 pharmaceutical companies regularly tested new drugs on pregnant rats and rabbits. In America, Frances Kelsey, an official in the US [JOHN CUMMINGS in the Chair] Food and Drug Administration, picked up warning signs of the dangers that thalidomide posed to the Thalidomide foetus from the August 1960 edition of the British Medical Journal. It warned of the damage that the drug Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting caused to nerve endings. As a result, thalidomide did be now adjourned.—(Mike O’Brien.) not receive a licence in the USA. Members of the Cohen committee should have been aware that thalidomide 9.30 am could pose a risk to the foetus. Charlotte Atkins (Staffordshire, Moorlands) (Lab): Rather than engage in the blame game, I believe that As a child, I used to visit the local Dr. Barnardo’s home it is important to look to the future. The Thalidomide with my parents. That is where I first came across Trust is grateful for the constructive engagement that it thalidomide: the home was looking after a baby with no has had with the Minister of State, Department of arms or legs. That image has stayed with me for more Health, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member than 40 years. I am proud to follow in the footsteps of for North Warwickshire (Mr. O’Brien). The trust is also the fantastic disability campaigner, Jack Ashley—his grateful that the Department of Health has sought to old constituency of Stoke-on-Trent, South, adjoins work with it. However, the 463 thalidomide survivors mine—by initiating an Adjournment debate on the have complex needs, which are constantly evolving and support provided for persons disabled by thalidomide. unpredictable. Their case is unique and unprecedented The thalidomide survivors are a unique group. I am in medical history. The Government’s response therefore pleased that many of them are here today. They were needs to be innovative. They must recognise the pioneering disabled by the national health service. They are the work done by the trust, which, against all the odds, has survivors of a catastrophe that claimed the lives of found life-enhancing solutions for its members. many not so fortunate. However, the fortune of the As children, thalidomiders were experimented on, thalidomiders is a bitter pill; they are now in their 40s and were strapped into cumbersome prosthetic arms and 50s, their deformities are causing increasing pain and legs, in order to “normalise” them. Hopefully, we and they are having difficulties with advancing age. now live in more enlightened times. When we engage Many thalidomiders have never been able to work. with thalidomiders, we should look at ways to meet Those who have been able to work have, over the last their real and changing needs, rather than fit them into few years, started to retire early. That is because they an established care framework that is ill-equipped to have had to use their limbs in ways for which they were respond quickly and flexibly to everyday challenges. not designed. Many victims have needed hip replacements The Thalidomide Trust has developed a health support and even shoulder replacements. service for thalidomiders. It was made necessary by the A medical survey by the Thalidomide Trust revealed NHS’s failure to provide relevant and adequate health that, on average, each thalidomider had more than six care. The trust has developed peer-to-peer volunteer complex and chronic health conditions—for example, support networks. It has experience in dealing with the ear, nose and throat problems, poor vision and palsy; full range of health and social problems, and it is better they also had internal problems with the kidneys and equipped than statutory bodies to meet the complex the heart, and gastro-intestinal troubles. They also have needs of its beneficiaries. It also has its own mechanism arthritis, osteoporosis, sciatica and problems such as for reclassifying an individual’s degree of disability. It is epilepsy and obesity. The result is that thalidomiders called the individual beneficiary review. It is highly are living in bodies 25 years older than their age. complex, and was developed in conjunction with the Why is this a problem for the Government? It is Leeds university school of medicine. However, the trust simply because the Department of Health is implicated has the capacity to conduct only 10 to 20 such reviews a in the tragedy. The World Health Organisation warned year. the Government in 1957 that unless safety measures I am pleased that the Department of Health has were tightened before new drugs received permission to taken on board the real challenges presented by the be sold in the United Kingdom, disaster was increasingly thalidomide survivors, and the requirement to base likely. Before a drug could enter the UK, the Cohen support on the needs of each individual in a way that committee, a Government agency, had to scrutinise the puts people in control of their own care. However, there medicine’s effectiveness. In 1962, in an oral answer to a are concerns about the Department’s proposal to develop parliamentary question asked by Maurice Edelman, the personal budgets for thalidomide survivors and to set then Minister of Health, Enoch Powell, said that the up a pilot study. It would help if the Minister clarified a remit of the Cohen committee was to decide whether a number of points. drug had been tested satisfactorily. How will the personal health budgets be calculated? Thalidomide was described by the Cohen committee Many thalidomiders receive no health-care support, so as a drug of proven value, and it was granted purchase it is not possible to base such budgets on existing tax exemption in December 1958. That was a highly spending. How can the personal health budget team sought prize, as it encouraged the NHS to use the drug make commitments about the level of funding available as a prescription medicine, widely used for morning from local authorities for thalidomide survivors? Given sickness. Distillers made the remarkable claim that the dispersed location of thalidomiders, how can one 243WH Thalidomide4 NOVEMBER 2009 Thalidomide 244WH

[Charlotte Atkins] returns, inflation and the medical and social care burdens of survivors have sharply eroded the value of the original primary care trust and one partner local authority lead settlement. a pilot study with 20 survivors? In reality, more PCTs Other Governments, such as those in Germany, Italy and local authorities will need to be involved, increasing and Ireland, have agreed payments to thalidomiders. I the liaison and management costs for the Thalidomide urge the UK Government to do the same, as many Trust. Who will ensure that there are appropriate health survivors are now in dire need. Justice is not time-limited. services locally for thalidomide personal health budget These totally innocent victims must have Government holders to spend their money on? help now. The most cost-effective way of ensuring that is for the Department of Health to make an annual The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike ex-gratia payment to the Thalidomide Trust, which has O’Brien): I did not catch the previous question, and I a proven record of acting on behalf of all its beneficiaries. want to be sure that I can respond. Will my hon. Friend That should be overseen by a steering group, involving repeat it? I heard her question about the care costs of the Department of Health, the Department for Work the trust; I mean the one after that. and Pensions, the Treasury, survivors, staff and the Thalidomide Trust’s trustees. Please help the thalidomide Charlotte Atkins: The issue was the dispersed location survivors to live out the last third of their lives with of thalidomiders. The Department suggested that the dignity, independence and security. trust should deal with one primary care trust and one local authority. However, the trust and thalidomiders 9.43 am say that because they are so dispersed, they would need Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): The Minister today more than one PCT and more than one local authority, could take the line that these matters were resolved in which would put quite a burden on the Thalidomide the 1970s when a settlement was agreed between Distillers Trust. How can we ensure that appropriate health services and those who had suffered as a consequence of are available locally for thalidomide personal budget thalidomide. In the 1970s, it was much more difficult to holders? Given that the Thalidomide Trust set up its bring proceedings against a Government Department own health link because of the difficulties in obtaining because of the complexities of Crown immunity. However, appropriate local health services, how can we ensure the law relating to Crown immunity has dramatically that thalidomide survivors are not short-changed? changed in the intervening years. None of us was present during the negotiations between the representatives of those who had suffered as a David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): consequence of thalidomide and Distillers, and none of My hon. Friend makes a cogent case. Does she intend us was present with their lawyers. As the Minister is a to look particularly at the issues affecting thalidomiders lawyer he will know that in considering what should be as they move into their 40s and 50s, which she has an appropriate quantum of damages, some considerable mentioned? Their movements become more restricted; thought must have been given at the time to the likely mobility therefore becomes more of an issue, and the life expectancy of those who had suffered from thalidomide. costs of mobility mount. How will that be catered for If one looks back at the legal textbooks, one can see within the personal budgets? I am not sure that it is, so that at that time, life expectancy for people suffering that is something that we need to address. from similar conditions was comparatively short. People may have lived into their teens. However, those who Charlotte Atkins: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. were disabled by thalidomide have confounded everyone A powered wheelchair can cost something like £18,000, by living full and often dynamic lives in unbelievably and adapting a car can cost a staggering £60,000. Obviously difficult circumstances. I suspect that their life expectancy— the car has to be new. The whole cost is something like and how long they have lived—has substantially confounded £60,000, and that is just for a fairly basic car that is large the estimates of the lawyers in the 1970s. That has had a enough to accommodate everything that a thalidomider double hit. First, even when topped up, the £20 million might need. What will happen if the pilot programme is put into the original trust fund has been wholly inadequate terminated in 2012, and how will the Department of for the needs. Secondly, as those who are disabled by Health ensure that the pilot programme does not create thalidomide grow older, so their needs get greater and inequalities within the thalidomide population? the costs of caring for them grow incrementally. Thalidomiders have had to fight every step of the I can think of no other group like this one. So, if way for justice. In 1973, after a decade of legal wrangling Ministers do something, they will not be accused of and with the help of The Sunday Times editor Sir Harold creating a precedent. They will not have people knocking Evans, they secured from Distillers—the company that on their door, saying, “You created a precedent with distributed the drug in the UK—£20 million, which was those disabled by thalidomide so you should be doing paid into a trust for the future care of survivors. In the similar for us.” This is a group of some 463 people. It is mid-90s, that sum was topped up, as the fund was a finite group of people, all of whom are growing predicted to run out in 2009. In 2005, an improved deal elderly with clear and increasing medical needs. I see no was signed with Diageo. However, even after all those reason why the Government should not respond to rises, the average pay-out to thalidomiders is just £18,000 those needs in the way in which the hon. Member for a year. That is barely enough to pay for an electric Staffordshire, Moorlands (Charlotte Atkins) suggested. wheelchair, which will last just two years. It will go They could make a pragmatic ex gratia payment year nowhere near paying for adapting a car, or for on year to the Thalidomide Trust. The trust has comprehensive adaptations at home to allow some dignity demonstrated its ability to well manage the funds that and independence, such as a walk-in shower, a stair lift it receives from Distillers, and subsequently Diageo. It or a computer with voice activation. Poor investment recognises that those who are disabled by thalidomide 245WH Thalidomide4 NOVEMBER 2009 Thalidomide 246WH have different needs that require different levels of support. at Glasgow university to consider the effect of thalidomide Therefore, it is much more responsive than perhaps on the body’s hormone balance. The results, published statutory structures that might exist elsewhere. That is a in the British Medical Journal, showed a marked reduction solution that meets the justice of the cause. The test of in activity of the thyroid gland, which should have set all of this is that as a society, it would be very unjust to alarm bells ringing. It was known at the time that any leave those who, through no fault of their own find drug that affected the thyroid was likely to be able to themselves in their older years struggling with their pass through the placenta, yet Distillers, like Grünenthal, increasingly difficult life—particularly as they are a did not test the drug on pregnant animals. group of people who have shown unbelievable courage Even more disturbing is the fact that the Cohen in taking on life and living life to the full notwithstanding committee, the body appointed by the Government to their disabilities from the day that they were born. establish whether new drugs had been properly tested, I hope that the Minister and my hon. Friend the failed to ask whether tests had been made on pregnant Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) will animals. Instead, as my hon. Friend said, it described take the opportunity of this debate to not just give the thalidomide as a drug of proven value. As a result, rather inflexible line of, “These are all matters that were thalidomide was exempted from purchase tax and put resolved in the 1970s, and we have no intention of on the NHS prescription list. revisiting them again”—that would be tragic and wholly unjust—but go away to review the case and work out I will return to UK regulation in a little while, but my what sort of sum would be reasonable to pay, year on hon. Friend was right to point out the contrast with year, ex gratia, to this group of people, who are experiencing how the Food and Drug Administration in America very real medical needs. That seems to be a perfectly dealt with Richardson Merrell’s application to market proper use of part of the Department of Health’s the drug there. As she said, Dr. Frances Kelsey recognised budget. There is a proven mechanism through the that a variety of factors could affect absorption rate Thalidomide Trust that could meet the equity and justice and required tests to be made on pregnant animals. needs of that particular group of people. It is not a Tests were carried out on pregnant rabbits, and deformed group that will expand; it is by definition a finite group foetuses were born. If the Cohen committee, acting on of people clearly identifiable as potential beneficiaries behalf of the Government, had required similar tests to of the trust. Justice must be met, and the House collectively be done here, it would have seen in baby rabbits similar has a duty to ensure that it is. deformities of the sort that were later to be seen in human babies. It did not. Some 3,800 babies died, and 508 were born with disabilities to mothers who had 9.50 am taken thalidomide, having been assured that it was Mr. Martin Caton (Gower) (Lab): It is a great pleasure perfectly safe to do so. to follow the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), When we think of people affected by thalidomide, who has made some telling points. I congratulate my most of us think of people with rudimentary arms or hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, Moorlands legs, but the drug caused a far greater range of debilitating (Charlotte Atkins) on securing this vital debate and on conditions. Many suffered damaged ears and hearing. making an excellent case in support of the campaign by In others, eyesight was affected. A few suffered brain thalidomide survivors to secure financial assistance from damage, with associated sensory limitations. Some with Government. I am the chair of the all-party group on legs have no arms, and a large number have arms thalidomide, which is working with the national advisory ranging from half or two thirds of normal length to two council of the Thalidomide Trust to achieve those objectives. or three inches. Many with hands have fingers missing Thalidomide was developed by the German firm and no thumbs. Leg damage often resulted in one or Chemie Grünenthal as an anticonvulsant. It did not both legs being short and feet absent or significantly work for that purpose, but trials showed that it had damaged. In addition, there could be extensive damage sedative properties, with the apparent added benefit to the internal organs and the skeletal structure. that overdoses resulted not in death but simply in Before the establishment of the Thalidomide Trust, prolonged sleep. It was first marketed in Germany in which was later to protect the interests of those children, 1957 and in the UK in 1958. It was sometimes combined they were subject to well-meaning but extremely with other drugs to treat a variety of conditions. questionable and certainly unwelcome professional The promotion of all those products laid great stress attention, as my hon. Friend mentioned. Some endured on the safety of thalidomide. Grünenthal also claimed a series of operations intended to make them look that thalidomide was completely safe for pregnant women “more normal”, such as constructing ears where they and could therefore be used to treat morning sickness had none or removing vestigial digits. There was a drive and some other negative aspects of early pregnancy. to find functional artificial arms, but childhood experience Astonishingly, the company made that claim without of such prosthetics put the majority of thalidomiders testing the drug on pregnant animals or testing the off them in adult life. science behind the claim that an overdose would not What is truly remarkable is how the individuals affected normally kill. The latter claim resulted from the fact by thalidomide have responded to the disadvantages that thalidomide, although highly toxic, had a low dealt to them. In their teens, many refused to accept the absorption rate. That, however, could be affected by limited lifestyle that some thought appropriate for people other illnesses, the taking of other medicines and, crucially, so badly disabled and determined to live as fulfilling a pregnancy. life as possible. Sadly, 46 of the original 508 have died, Distillers, which manufactured thalidomide in the but a large proportion of the survivors have taken life UK under licence, had to conduct its own tests, albeit by the horns. A majority are married, and between limited ones, on the drug, and it commissioned researchers them they have more than 500 children. Many have 247WH Thalidomide4 NOVEMBER 2009 Thalidomide 248WH

[Mr. Martin Caton] I commend to hon. Members a recent article by Bruce Page, one of the Sunday Times insight team that become highly qualified and have successful professional helped expose the thalidomide scandal. The article, careers; others run their own businesses. A large number “Thalidomide: Opening the Last Chinese Box”, condemns have regular full-time jobs, and half are in some form of the Government of the day, and Health Minister Enoch paid employment. Many of those not in paid jobs are Powell in particular, for refusing to set up a public bringing up families. inquiry. I agree with Mr. Page that if an inquiry had However, their very determination to get on with been given the go-ahead and the whole truth had been things has taken its toll. By the late 1990s, it was revealed, we would not be calling for action at this late becoming clear that thalidomiders were facing a new set date. The Government’s role would have been exposed of health problems brought about by their wholly admirable and their obligations acknowledged and honoured. commitment to activity. They are entering their 40s and The article also shines light on what happened all 50s, but have always had to use their limbs and other those years ago. It blows out of the water claims made parts of their bodies in ways for which they were not at the time by thalidomide manufacturers and the Ministry designed. Many have needed hip or even shoulder of Health that the drug had been thoroughly tested—by replacements at the age of about 40. Others have reluctantly the standards of the time—against every foreseeable been forced to give up work or are considering doing so, dysfunction and that nobody had ever tested drugs for which creates personal financial difficulties. risks to human reproduction. Those claims are simply not true. Tests for reproductive risk were commonplace The main reason why I believe that we should call for in the 1950s, notably for tranquilisers. There was a Government assistance to help thalidomiders at this failure of regulation in the UK that the Government time is that they badly need it and no one else can or failed to address. There was no excuse for that failure, as will provide it. Some things for which they need additional my hon. Friend said. resources have been mentioned, as well as the basics— additional care hours, help with cleaning and gardening Thalidomide was marketed in April 1958 and was and so on—but there are also technical changes, which approved by the Cohen committee in December 1958. my hon. Friend mentioned. That absurdly short time frame is evidence of the inadequacy of the assessment. In 1957, the World Health Organisation technical report series, No. 137, had warned Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): that there were no regulations in Britain to ensure that The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case, as have drug manufacturers applied the best available technology other hon. Members. It seems to me that if a similar when developing new products. That report was referred incident occurred today, the sums of money awarded to the Health Standing Advisory Committee, but no would be far in excess of those awarded by Distillers action was taken. Bruce Page demonstrates that Distillers and Diageo, because we have greater expectations of and Grünenthal did not apply the same level of scientific what kind of life people with disabilities can and should research as many of their competitors. The Government lead and of the cost of achieving that. What was failed to make them do so, even after the WHO warning. awarded is completely inadequate for today’s realistic The WHO paper drew attention to the failure of regulation expectations. in this country: “Many countries required detailed data from the manufacturers Mr. Caton: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I of drugs before they were introduced to the market, one notable do not want to go into the history of the case against exception being Great Britain.” Distillers, but the parents were worn down at the time It was not the inadequacy of the science at the time that by Distillers’ resistance to paying anything like decent allowed thalidomide on to the market and into pregnant compensation. If they had not been and the case had women’s bodies, but the inadequacy of the Government’s gone through properly, they probably would have received regulatory regime. a much more substantial payout than they did, even with the Sunday Times campaign. He is absolutely Patrick Hall (Bedford) (Lab): My hon. Friend is right. describing the catastrophic regulatory failure of the Thalidomiders need technical adaptations. Due to Government of the day. Does he agree that a further the various conditions from which they suffer, they need problem has been a culture at the heart of subsequent control adaptations for their homes and cars. As my Governments not to acknowledge regulatory failure? hon. Friend said, that is very expensive in some cases. Governments put up barriers to addressing the They need specialised wheelchairs, and we have been consequences of regulatory failure, such as setting precedent told how expensive those can be. The good news is that and incurring costs. Those arguments have been dragged there are answers to many thalidomiders’ needs, largely out over the years, not just with regard to thalidomide, as a result of technological developments. The bad but in the Equitable Life case. Justice, fairness and news is that they are often expensive and beyond the responsibility get pushed to one side. Does he agree that reach of most survivors. although matters of precedent and cost must be considered, The second reason why Government should step in to what is fair, right and just is more important? provide the necessary financial assistances comes from the history of the period in the 1950s just before and Mr. Caton: My hon. Friend is right. I agree with the when thalidomide was put on the market. As my hon. hon. Member for Banbury that precedent is not a great Friend emphasised, it was the failings of the Governments problem in this case. It is true that Governments do not of the day, here and elsewhere, that contributed to like to admit culpability. Frankly, I do not care whether people being born with disabilities. That must be the Government admit culpability, but I care whether acknowledged. they accept their responsibility to do the right thing. 249WH Thalidomide4 NOVEMBER 2009 Thalidomide 250WH

Thalidomiders need the right thing to be done. There is fault of their own. Let us now do the right thing by the the strongest possible case for the provision of Government people who were disabled by thalidomide through no financial assistance for thalidomide survivors. fault of their own. I commend the Minister and the Department for engaging in dialogue with the national advisory council 10.7 am of the Thalidomide Trust about the best way forward Dr. Richard Taylor (Wyre Forest) (Ind): I congratulate over recent weeks. I understand that the thalidomiders’ the hon. Member for Staffordshire, Moorlands (Charlotte proposal for a financial plan, which involves an ex Atkins) on securing this debate and on her excellent gratia payment administered by the Thalidomide Trust, introduction. I will come at this issue from a different has been met with a counter-proposal from the Department angle. Enough has been said about regulatory failure. I of Health for the inclusion of a group of thalidomiders will discuss what we as a nation owe the thalidomiders. in a pilot project for the roll-out of the personal health budget scheme. The Thalidomide Trust is not attracted My qualification is unique in this place because I to that approach for a number of reasons, some of qualified as a doctor in 1959. I worked as a houseman which were listed by my hon. Friend the Member for not far from here, and I remember thalidomide coming Staffordshire, Moorlands. I will not repeat the arguments out under the name Distaval. Thalidomide was promoted against the personal health budget approach, but I to us as a sleeping pill. I was working in a medical ward agree that it will not meet the challenges faced by and remember prescribing it as the first effective non- thalidomiders. The Minister has seen the arguments barbiturate sleeping pill. I do not think I would ever from the Thalidomide Trust, so I will not repeat them, have given it to a pregnant lady, thank goodness, because but I think that it is a strong case. I did not come across such patients in that job. I hope that the Minister has read the comments of As a student, I received no teaching on the teratogenecity Professor Caroline Glendinning, who is a trustee of the of drugs. We understood the effects of external agents Thalidomide Trust and a professor of social policy at such as irradiation from diagnostic X-rays, but not York university. She has experience of evaluating social internal mechanisms. The Wikipedia entry on teratogenesis care and personal budgets, and will evaluate the pilot states: personal health budgets. One of her concerns is that the “It was previously believed that the mammalian embryo developed pilot of about 20 people proposed by the Department in the impervious uterus of the mother, protected from all extrinsic factors. However, after the thalidomide disaster of the 1960s, it could create inequalities among the thalidomide population became apparent and more accepted that the developing embryo in England and between thalidomiders in England and could be highly vulnerable to certain environmental agents that those in the rest of the UK or overseas. have negligible or non-toxic effects to adult individuals.” I believe that the financial plan put forward by the As students, we were not taught about such matters, Thalidomide Trust advisory group offers the best way and the general awareness was extremely low. forward for a number of reasons. First, it is simple and In order to demonstrate how much we owe to straightforward as it just requires the Department of thalidomiders, I will go through a little medical history. Health to pay an annual lump sum to the Thalidomide The Medical Safety Act came into effect in 1968. However, Trust, which would be calculated by costing the unmet until we got the “British National Formulary” in 1980, needs of surviving thalidomiders. Those moneys would active help for practising doctors was found in an be distributed to the beneficiaries by the trust, according archaic little volume. I was still writing prescriptions in to its established points system that determines the Latin in the 1960s and 1970s. I shall never forget marvellous degree of impairment. Secondly, the approach does not drugs such as “Mistura ammonium et ipecacuanha require pilot projects or a phasing-in over a number of compound”, which was abbreviated to, “Mist. ammon. years. It could be introduced quickly and would provide et ipecac. co.”, and was an expectorant. We were expected immediate assistance to all thalidomiders who need it. to prescribe that until the 1980s, when the “British There needs to be sense of urgency. Thalidomiders are National Formulary” produced a new guide that told us experiencing extreme difficulties now—not next year or which drugs were useful and which were not. At the the year after. back were lists of interactions, and drugs that should Thirdly, there is no need to invent a new vehicle to not be used in cases of liver disease, kidney disease and deliver help to thalidomide survivors because one already in pregnancy. That was in 1980, and was the first time exists. The Thalidomide Trust does a first-class job and that practising doctors had been given that sort of has developed many ways to help thalidomiders in all information. aspects of their lives, as my hon. Friend said. That is I have compared the “British National Formulary” of done on the basis of the right to personal choice, which 2004 with that of 2009. In 2004, there were 15 pages of is the basis of the personal health budget approach. advice on prescribing drugs during pregnancy. This However, the trust looks for the best answer for the year, there are 20 pages. The introduction to the section individual not just from one local health area, but from on pregnancy states: throughout the UK and sometimes beyond. The trust “Drugs should be prescribed in pregnancy only if the expected has a record of using the moneys from the manufacturers benefit to the mother is thought to be greater than the risk to the of thalidomide and the inheritor company responsibly fetus, and all drugs should be avoided if possible during the first and beneficially. It has the respect and trust of the trimester.” surviving thalidomiders. It is during the first trimester that the foetus is so The best way forward is clear. We are not talking vulnerable. about a huge amount of public money, but we could make a big difference to the quality of life of a group of Dr. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): We are establishing people who deserve it. We did the right thing by the a reasonable case to suggest that doctors in the 1950s people who received contaminated blood through no were fairly ignorant of drugs such as those that we are 251WH Thalidomide4 NOVEMBER 2009 Thalidomide 252WH

[Dr. John Pugh] Mikey Argy is the parliamentary campaign co-ordinator of the thalidomide campaign, and I will quote from an talking about. There might be an excuse for doctors, but e-mail that she sent me, as it sums up the position well: was there an excuse for the Department of Health and “It is our belief that the UK government shares responsibility those advising it being equally ignorant? for the thalidomide disaster…Had the thalidomide children not been born half a century ago, they would have benefitted from Dr. Taylor: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his modern government compensation schemes along the lines of intervention, but that point has already been made. I those to assist people affected by contaminated blood products want to labour my point about the gratitude that we (HIV and CjD) and the Coal Health Compensation Scheme. In order to give thalidomiders the resources they will need to live out owe to thalidomiders. However, I agree about the failures the rest of their lives independently…we intend to build up a of regulation. groundswell of support among British MPs.” Amazingly, thalidomide is coming back into use for They can certainly count on me as part of that groundswell. some uncommon and rare conditions. Under thalidomide, the “British National Formulary” states: My second point is about whether there should be a pilot scheme. I understand the reasons for pilot schemes, “Teratogenic risk; effective contraception must be used for at least 1 month before, during and for at least 1 month after and in most circumstances they are a good way of treatment…men should use condoms during treatment and for at testing a new system before it is rolled out. However, least 1 week after stopping.” this is a different kind of problem. The Thalidomide My point seeks to demonstrate that we have learned a Trust has huge experience in dealing with the diversity vast amount since the thalidomide disaster, because of of problems that have been described by my hon. Friends. what happened to those people. We have heard the It knows how to do it; no piloting is required for the arguments about the failure of regulatory reform, and I trust to run a scheme that will benefit all those people am not sure that we will get much further on that. and deal with the diversity of problems experienced. The hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) drew If I could proffer some advice to the Minister—something attention to the lack of precedent. In fact, there is a I rarely do—it would be that it is important to recognise precedent. People who received contaminated blood that expertise already exists, and that perhaps it would were given that blood before it was recognised as a not be appropriate to conduct a pilot project. With problem. This is the same sort of issue: thalidomide good will on the part of the Government and those was prescribed before it was recognised as a problem. involved in the campaign, a system could be devised to Therefore, I argue strongly that thalidomiders deserve meet everybody’s needs. an ex gratia payment—whatever it is called. Ex gratia Although a great deal of progress has already been means something given as a favour or not compelled by made on this matter, in every generation, a handful of legal right. To me, however, remembering my dog injustices have to be resolved. This case is one such Latin, ex gratia means that a payment should be given injustice that has not been satisfactorily resolved. I “out of gratitude” to those people. If affected blood know that my right hon. and learned Friend is decent recipients received such a payment, thalidomiders and, along with hon. Members from all parties, I stand should also get one. The mechanism must be worked ready to assist him in any way possible to bring the out, but those people have played an amazing part in matter to a fair and just conclusion, and I am sure that teaching the nation, and the world, about the dangers is his intention—I just want him to recognise that there of thalidomide, and they should be recompensed in is a great deal of support for his doing so from Labour some way. Members. Earlier this year, the Minister of State, Department of Health (Gillian Merron) stated in a written answer: 10.20 am “Prior to the thalidomide tragedy, there was no formal drug regulation system in place to monitor the safety of medicines in Dr. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I thank the hon. the UK. As a result of the tragedy, a complete review of the Member for Staffordshire, Moorlands (Charlotte Atkins) machinery for marketing, testing and regulating drugs was initiated, for precipitating the debate and introducing it in such including enactment of the Medicines Act 1968, which introduced an informed and balanced way. I shall begin with a stricter testing for medicines prior to licensing to ensure that they resumé of what I believe has been established and what meet acceptable standards of safety and efficacy.”—[Official Report, 29 June 2009; Vol. 495, c. 93-94 W.] I think we all agree on. We owe that to the thalidomiders. There is little doubt that thalidomide is a profoundly disabling condition. It is diverse in its outcome and extent—a point made by the right hon. Member for 10.15 am Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth)—and Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North and Sefton, in the level of handicap. The condition affects not only East) (Lab): I will be brief, as I know that people are individuals, but their families. In saying that, I pay anxious to hear the Minister. I, too, congratulate my tribute to the thalidomiders I have known, who have hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, Moorlands not only lived with that diversity, but striven to conquer (Charlotte Atkins) on raising the issue, and on the their disabilities. In many cases, those thalidomiders thorough and lucid way in which she introduced the have, with immense cheerfulness and optimism, become debate. Together with my hon. Friend the Member for major contributors to our world, our lives and their Gower (Mr. Caton) and the hon. Member for Wyre communities. They may be disabled citizens, but they Forest (Dr. Taylor), who has spoken with an expertise are by no means despairing citizens. that probably does not exist anywhere else in the Chamber, The point has been well made that as thalidomiders she has argued forcibly, and any remaining doubts age, there is little doubt that the handicaps they endure about the justice of the case have been removed. and have to work around create special problems—serious 253WH Thalidomide4 NOVEMBER 2009 Thalidomide 254WH organic and muscular problems, a severely impaired to follow it through. I would like to believe that ultimately personal and social life and problems we probably have the Government will accept that there is genuine force not yet heard about because we simply do not know in the arguments that are being presented. what will happen. All those problems demand appreciable There are two solutions still on the table: one is the resources to fend them off. It is widely acknowledged Government’s preferred solution, which is to pilot personal that there is little doubt that thalidomiders’ disabilities accounts and direct payment initiatives; the other, which and disadvantages were entirely avoidable. There was a is from the Thalidomide Trust, is to accept the costed massive failure of the duty to care by Grünenthal and financial plan that it presents and use ex-gratia payments. Distillers, and a failure of the regulatory system. That is In judging the two options, we must remember that we not a matter of debate—it was wrong of the producer are not just gauging the needs of those who happen to to market such a drug and negligent of the state to be disabled by circumstance; we are considering people allow its distribution. who could have lived totally different lives had commerce When we consider the sad history of the matter, there been more feeling or the Government more vigilant. is little doubt that the parties to this disaster have Yes, it is a matter of meeting needs, but to some extent it usually had to be dragged kicking and screaming to is also a matter of restorative justice. acknowledge their responsibilities. Trailblazing investigative The Government’s favoured solution is to use an journalism has clearly played its part, but so has smart embryonic mechanism of direct payments—a pilot—for legal footwork, which was needed to unmask the cause, an uncharacteristic, small, diverse and widely spread genesis and liabilities of the tragedy. At one stage, group, to be administered by local bodies with limited Distillers—not unassisted by the Department of Health— funds and, it has to be said, limited knowledge, expertise sought to deny the possibility of any foreknowledge or and skill. In any case, such a scheme would be time likelihood of thalidomide’s injurious effects. In addition— limited and means-tested. this is a sad point to make—Distillers sought to take The alternative suggested by the trust is to use a tried advantage of the legal inexperience of thalidomide and tested organisation of unquestionably the highest sufferers by pressuring them for an early and derisory probity that is intimately linked to the recipients of the settlement. More culpably, in the early days, through benefit and is aware of the task it faces. When confronted contempt of court rules, Distillers sought to suppress with that analysis, the next step seems fairly obvious. publication of the facts. The Government’s duty and the road ahead are clear. There is also little doubt about the embarrassment The Government might not necessarily want to take a and complicity of the British state—I mean that in the step down that road today, but they need to take the widest sense and not in reference to any particular matter away from the Floor of the House, sit down with Government—and that it has often had too cosy a Nick Dobrik and the trust, look at the plan, look again relationship with the pharmaceutical industry. Although at the problem and produce what everyone in this room I accept—the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor) wants: a permanent, just and workable solution. made this point—that doctors had reason in those days not to be particularly knowledgeable about thalidomide, 10.26 am the Department of Health knew the limitations of the drug trials that had taken place—that they had used Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): It is a small animals and had ignored things such as the effect pleasure to participate in a debate on a subject that I am of the drug through the placenta. The Department of surprised took so long to be discussed. I am not surprised Health knew what the characteristic biochemistry and that the hon. Member for Staffordshire, Moorlands behaviour of thalidomide’s ingredients were and what (Charlotte Atkins) has brought the matter to Westminster the World Health Organisation was advising. Tellingly, Hall, considering the campaigner she is. It was a pleasure because of the facts, it also knew that the drug was to serve with her on the Select Committee on Health. prevented from sale in the USA on safety grounds The campaign that has, frankly, been run so brilliantly under legislation passed in 1938—as with Equitable by the Thalidomide Trust and the advisory board has Life there was a producer and a regulatory failure. been strong, sensible and very active. The hon. Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh) alluded to the fact that, a few There is little doubt that that general analysis is months ago, one or some of the thalidomiders considered accepted worldwide. In every other nation where standing for election—perhaps Cambridgeshire is not compensation is given—even if that compensation is quite the place, but certainly having that sort of campaigner less than that given in the UK, and in some cases it in the House would be a credit to the House and not a is—the state contributes. The UK Government have, in hindrance. reality, done very little in a financial sense to resolve the problem and, until recently, they have collected far I have met representatives of the Thalidomide Trust more in tax than they have given out in lump-sum many times. We have had robust, but open and honest benefits. discussions. My door will always be open to them now and in the future. Their ability to fight for their rights, However, there is absolutely no doubt whatever that friends and fellow sufferers is a tribute to them. As we the Government want to solve the problem, and I have heard today, the experts assumed that they would genuinely believe that that is not just because of the all be gone by now and the problem would be over force of Back-Bench opinion or the campaigning quality because perhaps they would not have lived this long. As of the thalidomiders themselves. I understand that Nick someone who was born in 1957, I am conscious of how Dobrik considered getting elected to this place for close my parents were to the taking of this drug. My Cambridge, South in order to take the matter further, mother tells me that she suffered enormously with which is a rather desperate remedy in the current morning sickness so, but for the will of God, I could be circumstances, and I would not necessarily advise him sitting in the Public Gallery listening to the debate now. 255WH Thalidomide4 NOVEMBER 2009 Thalidomide 256WH

[Mike Penning] health needs today, but have other needs that are not part of the health budget. They think it important that I pay tribute to the ferocious tenacity of the thalidomiders. the Minister addresses this issue, and I am sure that he As we heard from the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Caton), is toying with that idea and fighting with his own the chair of the all-party group on thalidomide, their Department about how it can be addressed. I repeat parents were worn down. This group of people are not that thalidomide victims are exceptional cases, and that going to be worn down, and that is obvious to all of us. there are no replicated cases. I am pleased that the I have listened intently to the debate and heard the Government have already addressed the tainted blood responses of hon. Members, some of which I am sure problem. I had the honour of being the chair of the the Minister will reiterate. It is enormously difficult all-party group on haemophilia before I came to the when such a diverse group of people have had their lives Front-Bench. blighted by one cause, but they have needs that are Thalidomide victims need help today. How are we completely individual. I do not think that one single going to cross the Rubicon between what the trust, the thalidomide victim is identical to another. Their problems advisory board, the all-party group and the campaigners might be similar, but they are not identical. I find it feel needs to be addressed today, and the Government’s difficult to understand how a pilot group of 20, 30 or position? The Opposition’s view is that there should be 40 people could replicate the needs of all 363 people an independent review of all the medical needs of who need help. I shall be interested to hear from the thalidomide victims. That review has to be independent; Minister how he expects a pilot project that is based it has to be carried out away from the Government, the around the primary care trust structure to work, given Department of Health and the trust, because although that some PCT areas have no people who suffer from the expertise is there, there will always be a scepticism the effects of thalidomide, and others have numerous within the Department. I call on the Government to sufferers, each one of whom will be different. announce an independent review to assess the individual The expertise that the trust has acquired over the needs of all thalidomide victims. If they do not do that, years, not least through help from universities such as and if the Conservative party forms a Government, it the university of Leeds, is the sort of knowledge that we will announce a review immediately after the election. need to take this matter forward. We need to draw a line Our review would look at the capacity of the Thalidomide under this issue. The thalidomide campaigners need to Trust to assist its members, at how the NHS is addressing stop having to campaign; they need a rest. Having met the needs of thalidomide victims, and at how local them on many occasions, I know that they are exhausted, authorities and the Government in general are assessing but I also know that they will not give up. their needs. That is the least that we could do. The review should report within three months, and the Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Government should then come forward with proposals In outlining his thesis, the hon. Gentleman has clearly on how the long-term needs of thalidomide victims will established the diversity of the victims’ needs. Given the be addressed. diverse nature of PCTs and the different ways of administering health care across the UK, does not that 10.35 am make it all the more important that the issue should be The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike taken beyond any pilot and resolved immediately? No O’Brien): Let me begin by joining in the general one doubts the Government’s intent, but we need a congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for resolution. Staffordshire, Moorlands (Charlotte Atkins) on securing the debate on this enormously important issue. We have Mike Penning: I completely agree. I do not think heard several passionate contributions to the debate—from anyone doubts that the Minister and the Government my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Caton), want to help, but the debate is about how to do that and my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North how we can be fair to all the individuals who suffer from and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth) and my hon. Friend the effects of the thalidomide drug. I do not suggest the Member for Bedford (Patrick Hall), as well as from that this matter can be dealt with once and for all, the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor), with his because people’s circumstances will change as they get historical knowledge of the situation. We have also older, but we certainly need to get past the current heard from the hon. Members for Banbury (Tony Baldry) situation in which many of those people are suffering in and for Southport (Dr. Pugh). The contribution of the ways that none of us can comprehend. hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) The very nature of this issue means that people have was slightly disappointing, in that he simply proposed different needs. Health needs have been discussed, and another review. the hon. Lady mentioned that some victims have already We need to clear the decks a little regarding what the had joint replacements, but for many sufferers that issues are. The hon. Member for Banbury is right about would not be possible because their joints are not my having been given the traditional Minister’s brief. replicable. Some people’s joints cannot just be replaced Let me dispense with it and talk more broadly about the tomorrow because they are unique as a result of their key issues. We can argue about the money, but that is condition. It is very difficult to see how all those needs not the issue, frankly. The issue is whether people have will be met by PCTs around the country. health and care needs that must be addressed. The As well as health needs, those people have other national advisory council of the Thalidomide Trust has needs relating to their quality of life, especially as they put to me its views about thalidomiders’ concerns about move into their 50s and, we hope, into their 60s and 70s. their health. I accept that many of their health needs are I am sceptical about how personal health budgets will changing and increasing. For some of the people who work, because many thalidomide victims do not have have survived thalidomide and received compensation 257WH Thalidomide4 NOVEMBER 2009 Thalidomide 258WH in the past, through Diageo, Distillers and the Thalidomide and a range of other things. We must find out how we Trust, and who are receiving some payments, their life can best address all those needs. expectations have changed substantially since those agreements were reached. I accept that entirely, and we Tony Baldry: The Minister acknowledges that those must now look at the implications of the situation. We health and care needs will involve funding, but will he must look at their health and care needs and consider clarify whether that funding will be allocated specifically how they can best be addressed. to primary care trusts and ring-fenced, or whether it We can argue about history and about money, but the will go directly to the Thalidomide Trust? I hope that he main issue is working out the main health-care needs of will not take it amiss if hon. Members would like to thalidomiders. The issue is one of liability.The Government understand exactly where the money will come from could set out their position at some length, but I do not and where it will go to. propose to do that today, because I want to concentrate on the future, rather than the past. Let me make it clear Mr. O’Brien: I will happily set that out in a moment, that I accept that there are increased health needs that because hon. Members will want to know how that now need to be addressed. Some of my proposals would money could be channelled if we reach agreement. probably cost more than what the NAC is asking for in its discussions with me, so I repeat that the issue is not Dr. Pugh: Earlier, the Minister referred to changing money. health needs. One limitation of an independent review is that we will only capture the needs at a particular time. I sense that many people are looking for a mechanism Dr. Pugh: Will the Minister give way? that would give them security for the future, whatever their needs. Some of those needs are imponderable, and Mr. O’Brien: Let me just explain what the issue is we cannot work them out at the moment because we about. It is about how we can best address people’s have never had Thalidomide in the world before, and needs. I do not have a fixed view on that. I have had a hopefully will never have it again. couple of meetings with the NAC and I am grateful to it for coming along and putting its case for ex-gratia Mr. O’Brien: We need to ensure that needs are properly payments to me clearly. I am considering its case, but assessed. The Thalidomide Trust has a mechanism, and the issue is difficult—I shall not go into all the arguments— I want to assess the sort of help that its beneficiaries and I have put an alternative proposal to the NAC. My need. I want to work with the trust to see whether that is proposal would involve similar amounts of money to a good way, for our purposes and those of public those that are likely to be paid, but they would be paid funding, of assessing the needs of individuals. It may somewhat differently. I have asked the NAC to work well be that it is, but we need to look in detail at how the with us on my proposal—to work through the iterative trust assesses needs and distributes funding, because we process of identifying the detail and how we could help. might learn something from that; there might be a It might be that my proposal would not work, or there mechanism that, with some work from my officials, we might be more to consider regarding the NAC’s proposal. can use. We need to find some way of dealing with the matter With regard to the proposal, we are looking at whether together. I want to go through that process of looking we can use the current legislation for social care, and the at the detail; I want to examine the health-care needs of legislation that is going through the House for individual thalidomiders, consider how those needs can best be budgets for social and health care. We are looking addressed, and look at the best way of doing that. at joining them together and then identifying about I will come on to the various concerns that my hon. 20 individuals across a range of disabilities, whose Friend the Member for Staffordshire, Moorlands, expressed needs would be assessed for a pilot. We could then put and deal with them in detail; I think that I have enough funding in place. The detail is still to be worked out, but time to do that. First, however, I want to be clear that the idea is to work with the trust and direct funding we are not proposing that only 20 people should be through it to ensure that individuals’ needs are met in involved in the pilot. I want to find a way of using the an agreed way. considerable skills and knowledge of the Thalidomide Those needs can be various; they can range from Trust to ensure that the health needs and care needs—I adaptions to vehicles and help with musculoskeletal will outline in a moment why I use those terms separately— problems to assistance with particular health-care needs. will be addressed financially and with regard to provision. Long-term conditions often entail particular kinds of I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for health-care needs. All those requirements could then be Knowsley, North and Sefton, East that there is a great identified within a budget. That would not include deal of skill in the trust that we need to access. We can admissions to hospital; they would continue to be covered use its historical knowledge, the knowledge of the separately, but health-care needs that do not involve individuals in its database, and the trust that it has won admission to hospital can still be considerable. from thalidomiders to ensure that needs are properly I have identified the figure of 20 because that might addressed. enable the university of York and the other institutions I propose that we work with the Thalidomide Trust that are assessing the pilot to determine whether it is a to consider individuals who have particular needs, to success and adequately delivers what we want it to assess those needs, and to identify a project that will deliver. I am clear that the figure of 20 is not a maximum; enable those health and care needs to be met. I accept it could increase to 400 or beyond, if necessary. The that those needs will, as my hon. Friend the Member for figure of 20 is used only for the purpose of the assessment. Gower said, include a need for care hours, help with We would want to work with the trust to determine cleaning and gardening, adaptions to homes and cars, whether the project shows the best way to help people 259WH Thalidomide4 NOVEMBER 2009 Thalidomide 260WH

[Mr. Mike O’Brien] thalidomiders are so spread out geographically? It is certainly true that we would involve various PCTs and with their conditions. I agree with the hon. Member for social services, but the Thalidomide Trust currently Banbury that those conditions are often varied and provides help to many thalidomiders directly, so we multiple, so we need to be able to assess the corresponding would use the trust to deliver many of the services to needs. individuals. Services could be purchased from various My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, sources. They could be purchased privately, from the Moorlands asked how the level will be calculated for voluntary sector, or from local authorities, using available individuals. We hope that it will be calculated by an funding. It will be possible to provide services on a agreed assessment, and we want to work with the trust diverse geographical basis, just as it is possible now, for to see what it identifies as the individuals’ needs, how many thalidomiders. they can best be helped, and how much that will cost. I was asked what happens in 2012 when the pilot We will then identify a sum. ends. If the pilot works, I hope that the project will The hon. Member for Banbury rightly asked where continue. If it does not work, we will have to identify that sum will come from. It will come from the place the problems and try to address them. We will have to where individual budgets will come from: from the try to ensure that a project is put in place that does money that will be identified for social care, and the address the health-care needs of thalidomiders. money that will be identified for the health needs of Let me be clear about this: I am talking about a pilot. individuals. The cost of meeting health-care needs will I want to see how it works and whether it could help come out of primary care trust budgets, and the cost of other groups, too. I do not yet know all the answers. meeting care needs will come out of social services However, I am not arguing about money. The figures budgets. that are generally used range from £8 million to We want to identify individual budgets as a national £12 million—I have seen various figures—and the scheme project on which we will engage with the Thalidomide that I am suggesting could be in that realm, if it applied Trust, if that is the right way to proceed. With regard to to all thalidomiders. health, the funding will be led by one primary care I will not get into a historical argument about liability. trust, which will work with the others to bring the I want to address health-care needs. When the thalidomiders funding together and ensure that it is directed into the came to me, they said, “We have increased health-care appropriate channel. We would work with the various needs. We want the Government to address them.” That local authorities to identify the social services budgets is a perfectly straightforward and completely legitimate and bring them into a central pot that would be directed point of view for them to take, and it is one that I through the Thalidomide Trust, if that is what is agreed—I accept. The issue is how that can be done, and how say that because there is still much negotiation to be quickly we can put a scheme in place. We do not need done. long reviews of three months or whatever. We could put My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, the scheme in place from next year and start to identify Moorlands asked whether we will help with the costs the way— for the trust, and the answer is yes. I have already identified a particular sum that would be available, and Mike Penning: Will the Minister give way? that would be a matter for negotiation. I do not want to have negotiations in public. I have had several useful meetings with the national advisory council of the Mr. O’Brien: I referred to the hon. Gentleman’s proposal Thalidomide Trust, and I want some confidentiality in and will give way to him in just a moment. We need to respect of the details of those negotiations, so hon. be able to put a scheme in place as soon as possible—in Members will forgive me if I do not identify a particular the early months of next year—and we need a clear way figure. of discussing with the Thalidomide Trust how we will take it forward. Mr. George Howarth: The Minister has helpfully described how he intends to work with the Thalidomide Mike Penning: The Minister referred to a long inquiry. Trust to try to find a way of taking the issue forward. If If the inquiry started today and finished three months during those discussions the trust can demonstrate that from now, he would still possibly have three months in a scheme could be brought in without the need for government before the general election. We still do not piloting, would he be open to that? know whether the pilots, which will take place between now and 2012, will work—he admitted that a few Mr. O’Brien: That would not pose an insurmountable moments ago—whereas an independent inquiry, today, difficulty, but let me pause there a little. The legislation into the long-term needs of thalidomide victims could being taken through the House in respect of the health be carried out quickly. The matter would not be kicked budget—not the social care budget—deals with pilots into the long grass, but dealt with today. and enables us to run a pilot to identify the issues. Although the circumstances of thalidomiders are, in Mr. O’Brien: What the hon. Gentleman proposes is many ways, unique, the project—if it works—need not an excuse for not committing to anything now. Fairly be unique. Other groups that work with organisations soon, I want to reach an agreement to commit to might benefit from an extension of it in the long term. I something. I want to do that now, or in the coming give no guarantees about that; we will have to see how it months, not over a longer period. I do not want to leave works. things vague. [Interruption.] I do not want to have a I shall go through some of the questions that I have party political row with the hon. Gentleman. I want to been asked. How would things be organised, given that get on and find a way to resolve the matter. Hon. 261WH Thalidomide4 NOVEMBER 2009 Thalidomide 262WH

Members have rightly said that the issue has dragged on arguments. I could have set out the Government’s traditional for too long, and I agree with that. I want to find a way position, but I want to see whether there are ways to to deal with it. resolve the issue. We need to talk to each other in an honest and straightforward way. I have a view about Charlotte Atkins: Will the Minister give way? how we might be able to deal with the matter, and am happy to say that it might work. I hope that it will, but it Mr. O’Brien: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I might not, in which case, if the trust has clear arguments want to deal with the questions that have been put to against the proposal, we may have to go back to the me. drawing board and look at the matter again. The next question was about how circumstances can The trust has put forward proposals, but I have change for individuals, and whether we would look at concerns about them. For example, if funding is to be changing circumstances as part of the project. The directed through the trust, how will we get verification answer is yes, we will. The amount of funding would of how it is spent? By and large, we are happy that the have to be agreed over a period of several years, and trust is a good organisation, and we want to work with then, as circumstances changed, it would have to change. it. There is constructive dialogue between it and the As individuals develop different health-care needs, the Government, but I do not want to drag it out, which is amount of funding would have to address that. why I said a few weeks ago that I wanted a meeting fairly quickly. I do not know whether we will get a deal Charlotte Atkins rose— before Christmas, but the NAC said that it would like to reach an agreement by then. I do not know whether that Mr. O’Brien: It appears that my hon. Friend wants to is possible, but I would like to do that, if we can. raise a point on that subject. Dr. Pugh: On a similar point, under the Minister’s Charlotte Atkins: I want to make a point about the scheme, if a PCT in the pilot has thalidomide victims so-called independent review. The Thalidomide Trust who need to be funded via direct payments, the funding has been independently reviewing the issue for 40 years, presumably will come from additional resources given and it is the organisation that has all the knowledge. by the Government for running the pilot, not from There is no need for an independent review. The trust existing PCT resources which, as we all know, are has the information, it has its finger on the pulse and it stretched right across the country. Presumably the funding knows exactly what the needs of its beneficiaries are. will not come from the existing overall PCT budget.

Mr. O’Brien: Which is why we need to access the Mr. O’Brien: Yes. Individual budgets will come from Thalidomide Trust’s knowledge. I hope that my officials PCT budgets, but additional assistance for the Thalidomide can have constructive discussions with the NAC. I met Trust to administer the system will not. It is clear that its representatives on 16 July and 22 October, and I direct payments come from existing budgets in any hope to meet them again soon for further discussions. event. My officials plan to visit the trust later this week, and I The question for me is how we ensure that the increased hope to have a further meeting with the NAC a week or health-care needs of thalidomiders are met. I accept so after that. that they need to be met. How are we to do it, and how The NAC has been clear with me: it wants ex-gratia do we ensure that power remains with individual payments. It has set out its case with force and eloquence. thalidomiders? If the funding goes to them, they should I had the pleasure of meeting a range of thalidomiders have some choice about how it is directed, and if they just before this debate, and, as I said, I have met with want to direct it through the Thalidomide Trust, we the NAC; they make their points forcefully and persuasively. should discuss with the trust how that can best That is why I am anxious not to get into the traditional be done. 263WH 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Sustainable Housing (Blackpool) 264WH

Sustainable Housing (Blackpool) Secondly, there are two specific planning applications from Kensington Developments to build between 500 and 700 houses, with double that amount of car parking 11 am space, on a 17 hectare site. Kensington proposes building Mr. Gordon Marsden (Blackpool, South) (Lab): It is on land that already floods frequently and has inadequate a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, sewerage services and roads to cope with such a major Mr. Cummings, and a pleasure to talk about the issues expansion. The Kensington applications contain no to do with Marton Moss and sustainable strategies in significant low-carbon or sustainability proposals, no Blackpool. targets for affordable housing and no comments on the threat to local wildlife that is prevalent in the area that When I was a child growing up in Manchester and would be produced by such a development. Stockport, one of the highlights of our annual visits to Blackpool, after we had done the golden mile and, Another issue that is not unimportant is that many hopefully, won something on the grab machines and other houses that have been built in and around the gone on the beach was to go out of the back of the Marton Moss area in recent years remain unsold. At a town, which in those days did not have the excellent time of economic downturn and a certain degree of motorway connection that it has today, and pick up stagnation in the housing market, there must be grave Blackpool home-grown tomatoes from one of the nurseries questions about whether a development of this size on Marton Moss. There are not as many nurseries there would be sold off rapidly. now as there were when I was a child, but Marton Moss A key issue is that the council has never had a major still retains that essential semi-rural character: Blackpool’s consultation with people in the area, either on the core oldest cottage is nearby—“Blooming Sands”—it is criss- strategy or the Kensington applications, although, as I crossed with dykes and there are still market gardens, shall argue, local residents have, in responding to my there are horses in paddocks, seven or eight species of survey on the issue and via petitions, certainly not been birds in many residents’ gardens and an 18th century silent on that. cattle shelter. That is perhaps not what people would Kensington has been a major developer in the area of expect to find in Blackpool. Fylde and Blackpool. In late 2008, having sniffed around This debate is designed to underline a major planning for about 12 months, trying to acquire parcels of land controversy that has blown up about proposals to build in and around the Marton Moss area, it formally put hundreds and, in the long run, thousands, of homes in in its first planning application for up to 640 houses. On this area and to highlight big challenges about the 11 November 2008, I wrote to the team leader for sustainability and affordability of housing and the development control in Blackpool borough council, regeneration in central areas of Blackpool. The controversy underlining the objections that had already flooded in has led to a sustained 12-month campaign to save the to me from large numbers of residents in the area about Moss, supported across Blackpool by me, as the local the development, including Member of Parliament, and by thousands of local “Little consideration for the implications of such a large scale residents. It has been further heightened by revelations development on congestion and road conditions”, that the developers wishing to build on the Moss made where there are already two £5,000 donations to the Blackpool, South Conservative “a number of narrow roads never designed for such a large scale association—the council is Conservative controlled. expansion of housing…The potential for deep and significant The controversy over the Moss was a central issue in problems from a major building project…on land where past a by-election in the ward in August, not least because of experience and local knowledge suggests that it could be unstable some of the key figures involved in the campaign and and unsatisfactory long term for such a development. There allegations that some of the councillors involved would are”— have to decide on the Kensington Developments planning this touches on what my hon. Friend said— applications. The controversy also throws up big, general “existing drainage problems in and around Midgeland Road”— questions about the need to have a coherent strategy to on the Moss link the siting of new homes with coherent skills, “and the impact on the water table could be severe…Concerns employment and environmental policies and the that the character of the area and the richness of its wildlife…could Government’s desire to give preference to brownfield be irreparably damaged by a development which would involve over greenfield developments. the loss of hedgerows”, destruction of trees, encroachment Mrs. Joan Humble (Blackpool, North and Fleetwood) “on breeding and foraging habitats as well as…the ability of (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that one key reason people to exercise their animals freely—together with small businesses for looking at brownfield sites is that Blackpool has a who are sustained by the rural character of the Moss.” high water table? If we build on Greenfield sites, we Finally, I mentioned create a danger of flooding not just in Marton Moss, but in parts of Blackpool, North, which I represent, “An unacceptable pressure put on existing services—whether where we have seen exactly that happen. schools, doctors or other public provision—in the area as a result of expansion which,” Mr. Marsden: My hon. Friend is right. I will illustrate I underlined, some severe concerns about the sustainability of such a “did not take into account such increased need.” major development on Marton Moss, as is currently Subsequently, when Kensington appealed initially, in proposed. June 2009 I added some comments in a letter underlining There are two separate developments at issue. First, the concerns about development, saying: the council’s core strategy presently envisages nearly “I believe in this respect that the Kensington proposals are 3,000 houses being built in the Marton Moss area. antipathetic to the Government’s and”, 265WH Sustainable Housing (Blackpool)4 NOVEMBER 2009 Sustainable Housing (Blackpool) 266WH in particular, The Moss is called that for a reason. Blackpool is “DCLG’s objectives of creating high quality, sustainable mixed riddled with examples of over-optimistic building producing and inclusive communities”. sunken driveways and constant flooding. I could take That was the situation then. But at the same time as you to parts of my constituency, Mr. Cummings, where the development application has been submitted, the expensive houses that were built on the periphery several council was producing its own core housing strategy, years ago have driveways that are not level, but are which produced the large numbers projected over a v-shaped, because they are in areas where the sand 15 to 20-year period that I have mentioned. In its meets the moss. That is why people who live in south defence, the council talked about the need to address Blackpool are known as sandgrown’uns, and those who the growth point strategy that it had signed up for in live at Marton Moss are known as mossheads. There is 2007 with four other councils. I should like to go back a lot of history behind the reasons for being cautious to what the council was obliged or not obliged to do as about building in the area. a result of that. I quote from the general criteria the In the wake of all that criticism, the council delayed, council was given by the Government in the growth and Kensington became impatient and appealed to the points document on the Department for Communities Department for Communities and Local Government, and Local Government website, which talks about the when the Government’s planning inspectorate stepped growth point strategy: in and said that the matter would have to be referred. “The Government invited local authorities to submit strategic On 4 June, the front page of my local newspaper, the growth proposals which were sustainable, acceptable environmentally Blackpool Gazette, quoted the Government’s inspector: and realistic in terms of infrastructure…proposals will need to set “The size of the proposals would significantly impact on the out their local and strategic impacts on the environment (for Government’s objective to secure a better balance between housing example regarding water supply, flooding and sewerage)”. demand and supply, and create high quality sustainable mixed There are grave doubts about all those areas in respect and inclusive communities.” of major developments on Marton Moss. The council, Kensington then made a second application with in its 2008 document on the central Lancashire and very few changes—for 570 houses, down from 640—and Blackpool growth point, which it signed up to, said that withdrew its appeal on the back of the second application. in that area sustainability was its most important To many of us at the time, that seemed a curious, consideration. smoke-and-mirrors exercise, which was one reason why I wrote to the chief planning officer on 9 July making When the initial core strategy was produced in March exactly those points. At the same time, the council said 2009, there was an enormous amount of protest. I that it had made major changes in its core strategy, received 400 plus responses from constituents that were which turned out not to be the case. In my letter, I said almost unanimously against both the core strategy as it that the new proposal was then was and the Kensington application. On Friday 6 March there was a protest meeting at Highfield school “essentially a cosmetic exercise and…will have…very little effect in lessening the negative congestion, service use and in my constituency, near the Moss area, at which I environmental and other impacts”. spoke. The leader of the “Save Our Moss” campaign, I said that nowhere did the application address alternative Angelia Hinds, spoke as well. I pay tribute to Angelia scenarios for the Moss, to provide substantial employment Hinds and all her colleagues on that committee for their for the area, such as developing a nature reserve, eco- sustained and detailed questioning of the council and tourism, and other green business initiatives. I pointed the developers throughout the whole process. At a out that it would do nothing to support the housing council meeting on 15 March, Councillor Fred Jackson, market restructuring and renewal that Blackpool council, a colleague, moved an amendment to the core strategy under the regional spatial strategy, had signed up to, to prevent a decision being made on it without proper nor to renew, refurbish or bring housing space in the consultation and detailed examples of its impact. The town back into use. The regional spatial strategy plan council gave neither, but moved the goalposts rapidly. says that local authorities should maximise reuse of What are the opposition and the arguments? Of vacant and unused buildings. course people who live on the Moss, both old and new It seemed that the council wanted to move the goalposts, residents, are concerned and passionate about their and a detailed executive report of 15 July to the cabinet circumstances. They have a quality of life that they executive left the overall direction of travel unchanged. want to preserve. The practical objections are to the There was no broad consultation with people in the council’s core strategy for the whole of Blackpool, as area, and no comprehensive rethink, which Councillor well as what may or may not happen on Marton Moss Jackson and other opposition councillors had asked for with Kensington’s large development. There is opposition in the March 2009 debate. A proposal by the opposition from ecologists at Lancashire county council, and the for further consultation on the core strategy was blocked protesters have a strong understanding about the choices by the ruling group. On the back of that, on 15 July I to be made between peripheral and central development wrote to the leader of the council again querying what in Blackpool. the strategy was designed to do. I talked about the lack Many hon. Members know about Blackpool’s history. of a proper in-area bid, and said that the report had not Its drive for regeneration and its bid for the casino and taken any account of the new environmental and local so on were posited on our need for growth, development carbon requirements that the Government would demand and stimulus in the town’s central areas, where some in housing strategies, let alone new proposals. I also said wards are among the most deprived in the country. I that any genuinely thoughtful review, which this was have said repeatedly, and said at the protest meeting, asked to be, would have addressed issues such as the that money is available from the Government and other revival of allotments, eco-tourism and a nature reserve sources for a properly costed regeneration strategy for that might bring new employment to the Moss and to housing in that area. Blackpool’s outskirts. 267WH Sustainable Housing (Blackpool)4 NOVEMBER 2009 Sustainable Housing (Blackpool) 268WH

[Mr. Marsden] and her colleagues say: “Absolutely nothing has been done about attracting employment opportunities. Have The only response I received to my letter to the leader any proposals been put forward to suggest how this will of the council, after waiting months for a detailed reply, be done or will the whole area become a dormitory arrived only two or three weeks ago but, curiously, was town? The proximity to the M55 will encourage residents dated 4 August, and dealt only peripherally with my of the new village to travel to Preston and Manchester, letter. It included the words: rather than go to the centre of Blackpool. The prospects “It is true that a Hub development would meet wider housing then for the inner town are not good.” needs and relieve pressures in other parts of Fylde Borough”. Blackpool and Marton Moss need a coherent strategy In other words, the strategy was focused more on the that works with the grain of Government policy, the needs of Fylde borough than those of people in Blackpool. regional spatial strategy and the growth point. I ask At that point, fate took a hand. The sudden and sad again why Blackpool council has not turned to its death of the councillor for Stanley ward, which includes partners, especially Fylde, to consider what they can do Marton Moss, precipitated a by-election in August. to take up some of the slack. Inevitably, the council’s position on Kensington and the Kensington is still stonewalling on these issues. In its future of Marton Moss became a key issue. However, latest letter to Blackpool council, its property consultants few were prepared for the spectacular stream of revelations brushed aside residents’ complaints, stating that during the last five days of the campaign. My local “with regard to comments of local residents, generally I do not newspaper, the Blackpool Gazette, broke the story that consider it is the role of applicants to respond…we stand by the Kensington Developments had given two donations of contents of our Environmental Statement.” £5,000 to Blackpool, South conservative association, Ultimately, this is about sustainability and coherence. one in July 2008 and the other in May 2009, just before It is not about narrow nimbyism, but about coherent its second application went in and the council revised its strategy planning that recognises that Blackpool’s needs core strategy. The headlines that followed in the Blackpool can be met only with a sustainable programme for the Gazette, speak for themselves: “The Tories and the centre. We need the dynamic twin-track approach of Tainted Cash,” “Tories defend cash gift,” “Now it is major, practical, cost-efficient brownfield development another £5,000” and “Tories agree to repay £10,000 to that can attract more HCA and private sector funding, developers.” and an imaginative new deal for Marton Moss. The planning chair stepped down from considering The people of Blackpool and the Moss know that. the future of the Moss because he was also its councillor. Let me give the last word to some of my constituents There were allegations that the Conservative candidate who have contacted me. One said: at the by-election had known about the donations and done nothing, and the north-west Conservative agent, “I don’t think the infrastructure is sufficient to cope…I am who carried out an internal investigation, said that the worried about the wildlife and who is going to buy all the houses.” money had been earmarked for the prospective Conservative Another said: candidate’s election fund. The leader of the council, “There’s enough derelict and empty housing within Blackpool who said he was furious about the matter and demanded that could be redeveloped rather than use this beautiful nature the return of the money, then demanded a letter from environment.” his councillors saying that they knew nothing about the Another said: donations. It was signed by 21 councillors, but six have “I agree…with the points…raised on the state of the land—it not signed it. Since then, the deputy leader and other is one big bog.” councillors have been referred to the Standards Board, and the latest headline in the Blackpool Gazette on Another said: Saturday 31 October stated, “Deputy leader in cash gift “The key to regenerating Blackpool is to redevelop eyesores probe.” It is perhaps not surprising that on the back of and dilapidated buildings...once greenfield land is developed it is that controversy and the continued objections, the lost forever.” Government Office for the north-west wrote to the Finally, Shirley Earnshaw of Midgeland road said: council on 16 September saying that the Secretary of “As a resident of Marton Moss for over 30 years I am appalled State was directing the council not to grant permission at the idea of the proposed development—we have a moral duty for Kensington’s application without special authorisation to protect the environment for future generations.” and reference. That is what the people of Blackpool and Marton Moss I want us to remain focused on the real issues of are saying. I can only hope that Kensington Developments policy, and to emphasise the key issues. Blackpool’s and Blackpool council will listen to them. regeneration is a key issue for everyone in the town, and we should be looking positively for ways to take it forward. That is why I have repeatedly urged the council 11.22 am to engage positively with an alternative agenda to their The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for obsession with building on the periphery, why I raised Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): It the issues with the then Minister with responsibility for is a pleasure, as always, to serve under your chairmanship, housing, my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, Mr. Cummings. I congratulate my hon. Friend the South (Margaret Beckett), in the spring, and why I Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Marsden) on securing wrote to the chair of the Homes and Communities the debate and raising this important issue, which I Agency, Bob Kerslake. know is of great interest to many of his constituents. It The Moss campaigners recognise that a strategy for was fascinating to listen to what he had to say. I must the area must be linked to employment and skills overall. confess that when I was taken to Blackpool as a child, In a note on the council’s core strategy, Angelia Hinds we drove in and out and did not get to stop in Marton 269WH Sustainable Housing (Blackpool)4 NOVEMBER 2009 Sustainable Housing (Blackpool) 270WH

Moss and see all the great things in the area that he told households in England is likely to grow by about 250,000 us about, so I feel that my childhood was lacking in a year. That underlines the urgent need to achieve a step comparison to his. change in housing supply. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for It also needs to be borne in mind that Blackpool Blackpool, North and Fleetwood (Mrs. Humble), who council decided, as we heard, to be part of the central takes a very keen interest in this issue and has contributed Lancashire and Blackpool growth point. The purpose to the debate. Both my hon. Friends work tirelessly and of growth points is to provide additional housing over effectively for their constituencies and are great champions and above the requirements in the RSS. The 2008 of and for Blackpool, speaking up for the people whom programme of development proposed a 32 per cent. they represent. I am sure that the work that they are uplift above RSS housing levels across the growth point doing on this issue will be noticed by those people. I as a whole and a 16 per cent. uplift in Blackpool. The would be very pleased if the local council could work as programme of development proposes new housing on a closely as possible with both my hon. Friends on these number of urban sites, including the North and South and other matters. Beach regeneration areas, Talbot Gateway, Squires Gate and Blackpool and The Fylde college, as well as parts of However, I must say at the outset—I am sure that my Marton Moss and Whyndyke Farm. However, the hon. Friends will understand this—that I can make no Government have always made it clear that any housing direct comment on the current planning application, proposals in a growth point must be tested through the because there is a possibility of that being called in for planning system in the normal way and that the growth decision by the Secretary of State, and pronouncement point mechanism is not a short cut. on it now would prejudice the Secretary of State’s decision. The Government have taken quick and decisive action in responding to the challenges facing the house building My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South industry, to keep the industry moving and protect jobs. read out the results of the local paper’s investigations. It More than £7.5 billion is being invested over this year should be congratulated on the work that it is doing in and the next to deliver 112,000 affordable homes. That the area. However, it is pretty clear that there are other includes the funding announced on 29 June as part of investigations and issues affecting this case that make it Building Britain’s Future, whereby over this year and an even more sensitive issue. the next, another £1.5 billion will be invested to provide an extra 20,000 new affordable homes, of which 13,000 I would like to clarify the Government’s position on will be for social rent. That is good news for families in housing. Clearly, the long-term demand for housing is housing need, and it is estimated that 45,000 additional rising. The 2008 regional spatial strategy for the north-west jobs will be created in the construction industry and increased the average annual requirement for new houses related industries over the three-year construction period. in the region from 12,790 a year to 23,111. That was It will enable local authorities to build 3,000 additional based on independent research commissioned by the homes over the next two years—a fourfold expansion of North West regional assembly. It attracted remarkably the scheme announced in the Budget. Like my hon. little controversy at the public examination. Blackpool’s Friends, I urge the council, registered social landlords share of that housing allocation amounts on average to and developers in Blackpool to take advantage of the 444 homes a year. The overall housing estimates and extra money that the Government have made available allocations to individual local authorities were accepted to give the local development industry a shot in the by the vast majority of authorities without disagreement. arm. However, it is important to remember that RSSs do Once development is back on track, it is the job of not go into site-specific detail and it is up to local Blackpool council to decide where the requirement for planning authorities to decide where to locate the housing additional housing should be met. In working on its development allocated to them in the RSS. Authorities new LDF core strategy, the council must decide on the should do that through their local development frameworks. appropriate balance between urban brownfield sites That will not only ensure plan-led development as and new greenfield sites. The Government have made it intended by the Planning and Compulsory Purchase clear to local planning authorities that they should Act 2004, but that local communities are fully consulted normally use previously developed land first. Neither on both the need for and the siting of development in the council nor the Government should give up on the area. Blackpool is working on a new LDF core regenerating Blackpool’s inner area as an alternative to strategy that will provide a framework for identifying additional greenfield development. sites for new housing development. The council is discussing with the Homes and The increase in housing requirements in the north-west Communities Agency a proposed £35 million package reflects an increased need for housing in the country as for new housing in the Tyldesley road area of Blackpool. a whole. For decades, there has been a mismatch between It is also discussing another scheme for the conversion supply and demand for new homes, leading to significant of houses in multiple occupation into apartments. Blackpool problems of affordability, particularly on parts of the faces its own unique housing challenges in its inner Fylde coast, where housing is out of reach for those on area, arising in particular from the high numbers of low incomes. The downturn has significantly impacted HMOs and the numbers of vulnerable people whom on house prices and the delivery of housing, but falling they attract. The council is working on improving the house prices have not solved the affordability problem. quality of private landlord management practices and On the contrary, mortgage rationing and larger deposit the quality of housing on offer. The Government are requirements have made it harder to buy a home. At the working on improving the town’s economic base through same time, demographic pressures continue to build, the regional development agency and the development with the latest projections showing that the number of corporation. 271WH Sustainable Housing (Blackpool) 4 NOVEMBER 2009 272WH

[Mr. Ian Austin] Probation Service While Blackpool council is considering the pattern of long-term development, I am aware that Kensington 2.30 pm has submitted an outline planning application to build Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): I 584 houses, with associated parking, village green and am pleased to have secured this important debate and so on, on part of Marton Moss. My hon. Friend will to know that it will be chaired by your good self, understand that, as I said, it would be inappropriate for Mr. Cummings, in your usual able manner. me to comment further on the planning application. The council has already been directed to refer the I pay sincere tribute to all the men and women who application to the Secretary of State, should it be minded work as probation officers. I say that with some experience. to approve it, as it could raise issues of more than local In my former calling as a criminal lawyer, I often found importance. It will then be for the Secretary of State to that their intervention could be crucial in turning people decide whether to call in the application or to allow the round and redirecting them away from an inexorable council to proceed to determine it. It is important, life as professional criminals. It is not an exaggeration therefore, that the Secretary of State be seen to be to say that many thousands of young people owe a lot carrying out his planning responsibilities impartially, to the probation services for the advice and guidance and I cannot prejudge the case. that they have received. I saw at first hand young people who were heading the wrong way and going down the My hon. Friend has raised an important issue about slippery slope to a life of crime. They were expertly the future of Marton Moss. He and my hon. Friend the diverted by probation officers, who often went the extra Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood are doing mile and put in huge effort for that purpose. Those a superb job as first-class MPs in speaking up for their people who were going the wrong way are now holding constituents and the communities that they serve. down good jobs, are responsible parents—grandparents even—and have a valuable input into various communities 11.30 am in my constituency. In other words, probation works. Sitting suspended. We know that the rate of reoffending post a community penalty is considerably less than post release from prison. Probation not only works, but is cost-effective for obvious reasons. It saves the cost both of prosecuting individuals and recommitting them to prison and of the actual offence to society. So, the good sense of committing extra resources to community penalties that are properly supervised by qualified probation officers is clear for all to see.

David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): I agree with the hon. Gentleman. For the £900 million it costs the UK taxpayer, probation is exceedingly good value. When I put the question about budgets to the Secretary of State on the day before the summer recess, he told me that budgets had grown by 70 per cent. since 1997 but that there were still some cuts pending. Does the hon. Gentleman welcome the fact that only last Thursday there was an announcement that those cuts have been scaled back, and does he expect the Minister to give us a bit more detail as to where the cuts will fall, because that is really important?

Mr. Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I know that he, like me, takes a great interest in this field. We welcome the partial reversal of the cuts, but I believe that the cuts will still amount to about £24 million. No doubt the Minister will explain further in due course, but I hear what the hon. Gentleman says and he is quite right to raise it at this point. As a last resort before imprisonment, community penalties work. However, what we have found is that the probation service has seen its work load soar over the past few years. For example, in the South Wales Probation Trust area, the number of community service orders rose from 2,760 in 2006-07 to 3,163 in 2008-09, which is an increase of 14 per cent. However, breaches of community penalties in the same period rose by an incredible 73 per cent., from 2,002 individuals to 3,816. In the case of breaches—where a person fails to carry out court-ordered work—the individuals will be warned, and if they are 273WH Probation Service4 NOVEMBER 2009 Probation Service 274WH unable to provide a cogent reason or excuse, they may the service and so on. The problem is not about their find themselves summoned before a magistrate or judge ability or commitment; it is simply that there are insufficient who will often resentence them for the original or people on the ground to do the work. specimen offence and send them to prison. The gloomy and rather dangerous situation is likely Mike Dunne, secretary of the Gwent and Glamorgan to worsen as a result of the proposed cuts in budget branch of the National Association of Probation Officers announced for 2010-11. The probation service faces a said: cut of 4 per cent. in real terms in 2010-11. Further cuts “The planned cuts by the Ministry of Justice will have a of at least a similar amount will occur in 2011-12. Such significant impact on the ability of the probation service in Wales cuts are bound to lead to the loss of posts and curtailment to work effectively. Napo has been campaigning vigorously to and reduction in the number of offender programmes fight these cuts and we have clearly made an impact, as the that the probation service provides. The probation budget Minister of Justice announced a reduction in the cut to the overall will be cut by £24 million in the financial year 2010-11 budget for the Probation Service to £24 m down from a cut of from an out-turn in the previous financial year of £50 m. We welcome this change, but the proposed cut is still a significant reduction on an already overstretched and overworked £894 million. However, that is an improvement on the workforce.” indicative budget, which we heard about in October The consequences of a reliance on an over-stretched 2008, with an anticipated cut of £50 million. Therefore, work force are plain for all to see. Monday’s report by we are grateful for the reduction in the cut, but it is still the chief inspector of probation found very serious very serious. NAPO calculates that at least 1,000 people failings in the supervision of potentially dangerous will lose their jobs over the next two years, half of criminals. In almost half of the cases that he saw, whom will be front-line staff. Currently, there are just probation staff fell short of the standard required, over 6,200 qualified probation officers in England and which, according to his report, was to ensure that the Wales. It is highly likely that the staff lost through public in London were protected from criminals with natural wastage or voluntary redundancy will be the the potential to harm them. The chief inspector found most experienced. When it happens, that scenario will that only 54 per cent. of public protection work reached place untold strain on the service, with potentially the required level, which is nine points lower than the serious consequences. It is obvious that we are on the score awarded 12 months ago. brink of a precipice. Some time ago, on 12 October 2009, the hon. and The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Maria learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) tabled Eagle): The inspector’s report was in respect of London a question to the Minister that read: probation, which is just one of the 42 areas. Obviously, I “To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what estimate he has can deal with that point in my own remarks, but I just made of the proportion of probation officer time spent on front wanted to emphasise that that was not a report on the line work with offenders in each year since 1997.” entire probation service. The Minister responded: “This information is not held centrally by the National Offender Mr. Llwyd: The Minister is right, and I did say that it Management Service, nor is it held at probation area or trust was London; I was not pretending otherwise. It was in level.”—[Official Report, 12 October 2009; Vol. 121, c. 153W.] London that the Dano Sonnex matter happened because Imagine our surprise, then, to find the information in of lack of supervision. Probation officers did not have a document that was to hand in December 2008. I the time to devote to that very important work of public understand how such things work; I understand that protection. Clearly, there have been shortcomings, and I the Minister signs off parliamentary questions. However, argue that it is to do with work load more than anything I am afraid that it is an untruth. We can dress it up else. however we like, but a question was posed in October 2009 about whether the information was available, and Maria Eagle: I just want to clarify the findings of the the answer—a belt-and-braces answer—was “No, it’s inquiries following the terrible case of Sonnex. Management not.” But here it is, available from nine months before, failings and an inappropriate allocation of resources in in December the previous year. It is all there to be read. the London probation area led to that case, which is well documented in the reviews that took place and Maria Eagle: I do not like the use of the word were published after the case came to light. “untruth”, and I refute it. The document to which the hon. Gentleman refers was a one-off exercise. It was Mr. Llwyd: The Minister is absolutely right, but I, basically a ring-round to some probation areas to get a too, am correct in saying that the individual concerned snapshot—not statistics that would stand up to any was overworked and could not possibly do the work rigorous process of the kind that we expect in our that she was assigned to do. Therefore, I was right from parliamentary answers. Although I accept that there the beginning. With regard to the findings, I agree with was some information, it was a snapshot. It was certainly the Minister that they provide a snapshot of London, not a statistical estimate. On that basis, I refute the idea but I will come to other parts of the United Kingdom that I have been telling untruths to Parliament. later in my remarks. NAPO has discovered that it is not uncommon for John Cummings (in the Chair): I think that perhaps staff who are supervising low-risk offenders to have the hon. Gentleman might wish to withdraw the word case loads in excess of 100. Those involved in supervising “untruth”. medium and high-risk offenders have case loads in excess of 60. A rough figure for a norm should be 25 to Mr. Llwyd: Well, maybe the Minister unintentionally 30. Therefore, it is not rocket science to deduce that misled Parliament, if I can put it that way—I think that staff are under huge strain, and that affects their health, that is acceptable. But whether or not it is a snapshot, it 275WH Probation Service4 NOVEMBER 2009 Probation Service 276WH

[Mr. Llwyd] ability to pay and a reduction in the number of enforcement officials. That analysis illustrates that the criminal justice is quite a bulky document, at 30 pages in length. She system is beyond capacity. could at least have said, “Yes, some work is being done,” The Government say that the probation service received and referred the hon. and learned Member for Harborough an uplift of more than 70 per cent. between 1997 and to the work of this particular delivery plan. Unfortunately, 2006. However, there is no evidence of any increase in it has come out purely by accident. The existence of the the number of trained probation officers. Indeed, since document has only recently been made public. I leave it 2007, numbers have been in decline. What happened there. I certainly do not impute any unfair motives to over that period was a two-thirds increase in the number the Minister, but somebody somewhere needs to explain of middle and senior managers. The truth is that we what is going on. I do not lay any blame on her; I require more and more from an already overworked appreciate how such things work. probation service for less. The document to which I refer has just been handed The story on recruitment is also depressing. According down. It shows that the information, albeit a snapshot, to NAPO, it costs about £93,000 to train a probation is available. The document, entitled “Offender Management officer for three years. The Government may argue that Direct Contact Survey of Probation Boards and Probation it costs £74,000, but both figures are high. It is therefore Trusts”, shows that 24 per cent. of time is spent engaged a waste of public funds to train someone without viable in direct contact with offenders, either face to face or by employment at the end of that training period. According telephone, 41 per cent. of time is spent engaged in to the most recent figures, announced last week, 459 trainees computer activity, whatever that means— are expected to qualify this year. Of those, 59 have already left, 44 will be made redundant, 129 will be Maria Eagle: To illuminate slightly for the hon. given temporary jobs until March and 27 do not yet Gentleman, some of the computer activity referred to know their future. includes completing OASys risk assessments of particular individuals. I would call that front-line work. Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): That is certainly reflected in the Dyfed-Powys probation Mr. Llwyd: I am sure that is right, and I am glad that service, where seven or eight trainees were trained at the Minister intervened. Some 35 per cent. of time was great expense and only one was given full-time employment spent on non-computer activity, such as drafting at the end of it. Several were given temporary employment correspondence and reports, administration and travel. until next March. That is surely a waste of resources The percentage of time spent with offenders falls to that could have been put back into employing trained 18 per cent. in north Wales and an incredibly low 13 per probation officers who could have coped with the case cent. in west Mercia. A probation officer who was load a lot better. interviewed said: “We should spend more time with offenders. I have been told Mr. Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. to spend about 15 minutes with tier 2 and no more than 30 minutes He has hit the nail on the head. More to the point, as he with tier 3/4. The impression I have is for every 15 minutes I spend knows, courts are being encouraged to consider properly engaged in face to face contact with offenders, I spend another structured and supervised community penalties, but 15 to 30 minutes recording it”. there are fewer people to supervise them. It is the old problem of “statistics, statistics”. NAPO, not surprisingly, believes that it is an Maria Eagle: The hon. Gentleman is being very extraordinary state of affairs. Information from its members generous in giving way. The figures he quoted are from over the past 12 months shows that no more than before the budget allocations. One would hope that they 15 minutes a week is spent on low-risk offenders, rising will improve significantly. The money in the budget to at most 30 minutes with high-risk offenders. In additional to what the probation service expected is NAPO’s view, that is woefully insufficient for the amount enough to employ 625 probation officers. of supervision required. The situation is even more serious. Over the past few Mr. Llwyd: I hope that the Minister is right, but I years, the number of sex offenders housed in hostels has have no confidence that the money will end up in the risen sharply. The hostels hold 2,500 offenders, right place. The National Offender Management Service predominantly on parole, and half are now sex offenders. is a huge monstrosity and every right-thinking person The premises are now taking significant numbers of thought that it was a waste of time. That huge empire is released terrorists, yet staff ratios have been reduced at billowing out and spreading its tentacles all over the night and those working in hostels are less well trained, place. It was a waste of money from day one and is increasing the risk of public protection compromises. bound to fail. I suspect it will be reviewed yet again The Prison Governors Association has called for the before long. abolition of sentences of one year or less. Last year, 75,000 people received such sentences. If such a measure David Taylor: I secured an early debate on the Carter were passed, it would ease prison overcrowding by proposals that led to the creation of NOMS. As the reducing the daily prison population by at least 5,000. hon. Gentleman said, the cost is one of the worst However, the probation service could not take them, as aspects of this issue. The training costs and two years’ it is over capacity, and the vast majority of such offenders salary aggregate to a cost of about £100,000 for each are unemployed and would be unable to pay fines. trainee probation officer who is lost. That is serious Indeed, early evidence suggests that the amount of fines money that could be better deployed to drive down collected has fallen. It is no doubt linked to offenders’ crime in this country. 277WH Probation Service4 NOVEMBER 2009 Probation Service 278WH

Mr. Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman is right. I am not it costs £93,000 or £100,000, training probation officers often accused of understating a case, but perhaps I and not offering them employment when their services understated the financial case by saying that training are desperately needed is the economics of the madhouse. costs £74,000 or £93,000. Perhaps the cost is more than In total, it is estimated that £20 million is wasted. At the £100,000. That is undoubtedly a significant figure. same time, there have been huge overspends on large More than half of this year’s trainees will be redundant centralised projects. The National Offender Management and have no secure future beyond 2010. That is the Service headquarters has cost more than £1 billion. pre-budget situation and we will see what happens. According to a parliamentary question in May 2009, Maria Eagle: NOMS HQ includes the shared services seven trainee probation officers in Dyfed-Powys are for all our prisons and special services such as tornado expected to qualify this year, nine in Gwent, seven in units, which deal with trouble and problems in our North Wales and 21 in South Wales. Earlier this year, prisons. It does not just contain secretaries and staff for estimates suggested that the seven officers in Dyfed-Powys the senior people in NOMS. I hope that the hon. had been told that there were no vacancies and that any Gentleman will bear that in mind when he quotes the that appeared would be subject to competition. Eight figures. were in the same situation in North Wales, eight in Gwent and 18 in South Wales. We must hope that the Mr. Llwyd: Did I say that it was just for senior staff? partial reversal in the cuts will assist that situation. Even if it does, we are in deep trouble. If the aim is to Maria Eagle: I was just clarifying. ensure that we have properly supervised community penalties, we should not be maintaining the status quo, but increasing resources. Mr. Llwyd: The Minister is very tetchy today. I have never been intervened on so many times by a Minister. After I raised concerns over this issue in Parliament Perhaps it is a compliment. She is obviously on the back earlier this year, I was contacted by several trainees who foot, otherwise she would not be jumping up and down. were bitterly disappointed that, having gone through She must be very fit because she has been jumping up rigorous training, they would not be offered employment. and down at an alarming speed. When Gwenno Jones wrote to me, I wrote to the Justice Secretary to raise the complaint. On 5 September 2009, Perhaps I can put it like this: NOMS contains I received a response from Lord Bach, the Under-Secretary departments that might not be part of the probation of State for Justice, on behalf of the Justice Secretary. service. The NOMS bureaucracy spend increased by He thanked me for the letter and wrote: £140 million between 2006 and 2009. It is interesting to “I understand your concerns about the employment prospects compare that with the probation budget, which rose by for Trainee Probation Officers. Those due to graduate in October only £29 million in that time. The Public Accounts 2009 were selected on the basis of workforce planning estimates Committee is taking an interest in the infamous C-NOMIS made by local probation employers in early 2007. This has proved project, which is three years late and has reached twice to be too long an interval for an accurate prediction of the current its original budget. Had it been in use, it would probably employment situation. This issue will be addressed when the new, have prevented the Sonnex murders. more flexible, modular Probation Qualification Framework replaces the Diploma in Probation Studies programme next year. Sadly, the overall picture being painted of the Ministry The current Trainee Probation Officers were recruited on the of Justice includes the wasting of resources and an basis of a fixed term two year training contract without any unrealistic expectation of the work load that a probation guarantee of permanent contracts. In previous years the vast officer can complete. I hope that the Minister will majority of graduates were offered jobs and it is unfortunate that, show some good faith and at the least ensure that the in common with graduates of all disciplines this year, the TPOs 450 recently qualified trainees will be offered posts. It is face a challenging employment market. typical of this Government to try to run everything on The employment situation is being monitored closely and the the cheap and to squeeze more out of an orange than is monthly returns show a steady increase in the number of jobs possible. The criminal justice system is not far from being offered as a clearing house system takes effect.” collapse. I know that as a barrister who appears in court The letter closed with the usual infamous local democracy and am not just making it up. The price of failure is clause: complete anarchy. I urge the Government to reconsider “Decisions about probation staffing levels rests ultimately with the settlement and to ensure that the highly-trained and the 42 areas and trusts who employ probation staff”— motivated youngsters we are discussing can go into the as if they could employ staff with insufficient resources. work for which they are well qualified. Society would The Minister said that I had confined myself to the benefit as a result. situation in London so I will move on to other areas. In Avon and Somerset, 16 trainee probation officers will not be offered jobs, eight will not be offered jobs in 2.59 pm Dorset, nine in Lancashire, nine in Lincolnshire, nine Mr. Neil Gerrard (Walthamstow) (Lab): This is a in North Yorkshire, 18 in South Wales and 28 in the useful debate, given the concerns that have been expressed West Midlands. In Cumbria, 10 trainees will compete about probation over the past few weeks. No doubt the for two posts. In Durham, 10 trainees will not be Minister will refer to the big increases in the probation offered posts after March 2010. In Gloucestershire, budget in the past 10 years, and rightly so. There was a 10 trainee probation officers who are qualifying in the 70 per cent. increase in the budget from 1997 to 2007. autumn have been offered temporary 12-month contracts That is not something that happens by chance. Budget only. increases of that size happen because Governments For the sake of the probation service and society, I decide to put the money in. It is important that we give hope that the Minister was right that things will change credit for what has been done on the budget. In addition, because of the change in the budgetary scenario. Whether there is no doubt that the service’s performance, in 279WH Probation Service4 NOVEMBER 2009 Probation Service 280WH

[Mr. Neil Gerrard] we look at, but I get the impression from some of the available statistics that the increase in work load has relation to meeting targets, has been improving, and outstripped the increase in resources. that it is now doing extremely well. In 2008-09, only one A report produced last year, which I know some hon. of its service targets was not met, and that was one of a Members will have seen, by the Centre for Crime and long list of targets. Justice Studies at King’s college examined what has However, as I am sure the Minister knows, and as the happened to probation staffing and work load over hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) the past few years. It found that between the creation of has just described, there are concerns, particularly within the national probation service in 2001 and 2006-07, the the probation service, about what has been happening budget had increased in real terms by 21 per cent., with budgets and what is going to happen in the next which is a significant increase, and that the number of year or two. The Minister went to the National Association staff had increased by 37 per cent. However, in that of Probation Officers conference in Torquay—I was same period, the number of fully professionally qualified there the following day—and she will have heard, as probation officers had fallen. So although there have I did, some of the concerns expressed by serving been big increases in the number of less qualified staff— probation officers. probation service officers—and in managerial staff, the overall increase in staff numbers actually masks a significant As I say, the service is doing a good job, and it is change in the composition of the work force. important to recognise that, because it gets a bad press. It is inevitable that the press will report cases where During that period, the ratio of offenders to fully something has gone wrong, and that there will not be qualified probation officers therefore rose from 31:1 to many press reports describing a case that the probation 40:1. We would not see the shift in that ratio if we service has handled well—a case where somebody has simply considered total staff numbers, but as far as fully been supervised and kept out of trouble. We will inevitably qualified professional staff are concerned, there has get reports of the cases that go wrong or, to take the been a significant increase in that ratio. I notice that a example of the Sonnex case, very badly wrong. parliamentary question on the ratio of probation officers to offenders was answered just last month. It was interesting Of course, we do not want cases to go wrong, but the to note the variation from one area to another that was probation service sometimes deals with some extremely revealed by the answer. For example, in Rutland, difficult and dangerous people. I would not like to be in Leicestershire, the ratio of offenders to probation officers the position of some probation officers, who have to is 10.5:1, which is the lowest in the country. By the way, make decisions about how dangerous people should be that figure relates to all probation staff, not just the fully supervised, the risk that they pose and what should be qualified. The ratio is 10.6:1 in Norfolk, 22:1 in London, done with them. Some hon. Members might have seen 20.4:1 in Greater Manchester and 21.4:1 in Devon and an article in The Guardian last month—I think it was Cornwall, so the issue does not just affect big city areas. dated 6 October—where a reporter was given access to There is significant regional variation in those ratios, a number of meetings, involving probation and prison and that must impact on the work loads in those different staff, at which they discussed how to handle people who areas. were about to be released from custody. There are some very difficult and dangerous people to be dealt with In conversations that I have had in the past few and, as I say, I am not sure that I would like to have that months, particularly with probation officers, it has come responsibility, with the tabloid press breathing down my through regularly that people feel that their work load is neck and waiting to see whether I make a mistake. too heavy, and that there are too many relatively inexperienced staff who have to deal with complex and If we consider the core tasks of the probation service difficult cases. As has been mentioned, from what I and what has happened in the past few years, it is know of the Sonnex case, the person who was given the obvious that there has been a big increase in work load. responsibility of dealing with Sonnex was relatively From 2005 to 2007, court reports increased by more inexperienced and was not given sufficient support and than 20,000. Between 1997 and 2007 there was a 36 per supervision. As the Minister said, there were clearly cent. increase in the number of cases of supervision in management failings, but that was the situation in which the community.Now, there are well over 200,000 community that probation officer had been left, and it was an orders and parole cases being dealt with—there are extremely difficult position to be in. Probation officers 240,000—and significant numbers of those people have keep telling me that such a scenario is not uncommon, to be taken back to court or returned to prison because and that too many people are in that situation. of breaches. There are also concerns about the IT systems; for There has been a significant increase in the number of example, the offender assessment system has been recalls to prison, which, again, indicates the work being mentioned. Of course, an important part of the work is done by the probation service to track what is happening ensuring that there are appropriate reports and records, to the people they are supervising. There are 2,500 but probation officers say that it takes a long time to do people in hostels, half of whom are sex offenders. a report for a single individual using OASys. They Practically all the people in hostels who are supervised would like it to be streamlined, so that for each case, by the probation service pose some real risk, and need they can spend less time filling in the necessary data to experienced supervision. produce a report through OASys. Probation is not an easy service to work in, or an easy For many probation staff, the worst thing is the job to do. Over the past 10 years, there has been a big worry about budget cuts. Last week, the Secretary of increase in resources, but there has also been a big State announced that the budget for next year will show increase in work load—I do not think that there is any a smaller reduction than the indicative budget did, so I question about that. It depends on exactly which figures hope that some of the cuts that we were told about will 281WH Probation Service4 NOVEMBER 2009 Probation Service 282WH not happen. In the summer, staff from all over the and some stability and certainty on budgets and job country came to see us in Westminster, and the Minister prospects would go a long way towards starting to came along to one of our sessions. From one region persuade people that there really is a future for the after another, we had reports of cuts, staff going and service in which they have been working. trainees not being offered jobs, and I hope that some of that will be dealt with by the change to the budget. People have been left feeling very uncertain about their 3.14 pm futures—about whether there will be redundancies and about whether trainees will have a job at the end of their John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I training—and it is demoralising for people in any job to want briefly to take up where my hon. Friend the feel that degree of uncertainty. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard) left off. I am secretary of the justice unions parliamentary group, to The relationship between the work load and the which most Members present belong. budget is quite difficult, because although funding for the probation service comes via NOMS, and there are The issues before us have been raised constantly in service-level agreements with the different probation debates over the past decade or so, but I want to start by areas, the size and nature of the work load is determined reassuring the Minister of the commitment of those not by NOMS, but by the courts and the sentences that working in the service to the implementation of the they give. It is difficult to strike a balance, which perhaps original principles of NOMS, which were welcomed. accounts for some of the regional variations that I The objective was a seamless service, in which fully mentioned. I appreciate that that causes difficulties, but resourced professionals with sufficient IT back-up could if we look at where the service is now—at how it deal with an offender through every stage—pre-sentence, performs and at how the people who work in it feel—it sentencing, imprisonment or community service, probation is clear that it has been delivering, although it obviously and rehabilitation back into society. That was the model needs adequate funding. More than anything, however, to which everyone right across the service signed up. it needs stability, and the people who work in it need to From the beginning, however, we expressed concerns have some confidence about their future. That is partly about a number of issues. The first was the lack of a matter of budgets, but it is not just about budgets. consultation about the involvement of the probation Another issue is the introduction of the best-value service in the development of NOMS. At the time, framework. Some people are worried that best value people thought that we were crying wolf, but the Select will actually mean privatisation of some of the core Committee on Justice report on the role of the prison work. We discussed that during the passage of the officer, which has been published in the past week, Offender Management Act 2007, and the Opposition makes an interesting point relating to NOMS. It quotes Front Benchers’ view was that it would be perfectly all a probation officer, Cordell Pillay of NAPO, who reiterated right to privatise anything going. The Opposition argued a point that we have made in previous debates—that that that should be done at local level, rather than many people endorsed the idea of creating NOMS, but regional or national level, but they had no problems were critical of the practice. In one of his key criticisms, with wholesale privatisation. In our discussions with he said: the Secretary of State, we reached consensus on the “From the outset there was not a clear structure or framework point that we should not privatise core probation work. for NOMS, so there is no clarity from the probation perspective However, the announcements that have been made about and no clarity from the prison perspective…There was no serious best value in the past few months have made staff quite planning in relation to it. There was no real consultation.” worried that there will be some backtracking, and that That was one of the issues that we raised from the “best value” might turn out to mean privatisation by the beginning. Interestingly, the Justice Committee concluded: back door. “We have seen no evidence that the creation of the National We know that there are people around who would be Offender Management Service has achieved the seamless end-to-end quite happy to jump in, and I have real concerns about management of prisoners that was intended.” some of those who are starting to say that they want to That reflects the views of those serving on the front line be involved in running prisons. Some charities say that in the probation service, and we need to address that. they want to do so, but that should not be part of their Another issue that we raised early on related to business. Charities do really good work in the criminal information technology and computer systems, which justice system by providing specialised services, such as colleagues have mentioned. In the past week, the treatment for drug and alcohol problems, and that is a Public Accounts Committee has published its report perfectly reasonable function for them, but I do not on C-NOMIS—the national offender management want to see them delivering core services. That is a information service—which completely endorses the concern, and I hope that the Minister can give us some criticisms that we have been raising since the early reassurance, when she replies, on how best value will stages. The fact that the costs escalated from £234 million operate. People are worried about their jobs and scared to £513 million under NOMIS, with delivery planned about what is happening to budgets, and adding the for 2011, confirms some of the early criticisms that we fear that privatisation is high on the agenda will make made. We heard from the unions about their concerns things worse. about the lack of involvement and consultation, the I know of people who worked as probation officers, lack of proper management of the project and the lack but who left the service because they were unhappy of practical engagement with the staff who would eventually about the direction in which they perceived it to be have to implement the system. It is not just a matter of going and were worried about what their future would “I told you so”; I mention all the critiques levelled by be if they stayed in the service. We really cannot afford front-line staff because they have proved remarkably to lose experienced and skilled people from the service, accurate. 283WH Probation Service4 NOVEMBER 2009 Probation Service 284WH

[John McDonnell] of more recent statements from NAPO, supported by the other justice unions, is that they do not feel fully Another issue that was raised—it has been raised listened to in the development of policy and its again today—is the disparity between the Government’s implementation. figures for the amount that has been invested in the I make this offer on behalf of the justice unions service—the 70 per cent. increase—which we all welcome, cross-party group: we are happy to organise for the and the amount that seems to have been translated into Minister another one of our seminars, in which we implementation by front-line staff. My hon. Friend stand back and look at where we are. We could invite mentioned the figures for staff recruitment. Although more front-line representatives to discuss how our budget the argument is that there was a 53 per cent. increase in is translated into real investment in front-line delivery, work load between 1997 and 2007 and a 70 per cent. not just in the coming year but over the forthcoming increase in the budget, the information we have received years as well, how we look at the tiers of management from the front line, as my hon. Friend said, is that the or bureaucracy and whether there is a need for rebalancing investment has not produced the fully qualified and from those tiers towards the front line. We could also experienced staff that the service needs at the very front look at the long-term future in terms of investment in edge. Again, we need a detailed examination of where the IT systems that are needed. That might give us an the resources have gone. opportunity of restoring confidence, among probation My colleague, the hon. Member for Meirionnydd officers in particular, that the Government have a sense Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), argued that elements of of direction, are listening and want to involve the staff levels and tiers of bureaucracy have been introduced in we expect to deliver on the front line. the service. We have raised such issues before, and My hon. Friend mentioned some of the hard cases sometimes they have been addressed. In the last round that have been dealt with. We put a burden on such of budget reductions or re-examinations in the London staff, not setting them up to fail, but placing on them service, certainly, a large number in the middle-management some of the hardest burdens of the justice system. At tier was taken out, and more money was applied to the the same time they are vulnerable to criticism in a way front line. that many other professionals may not be, because they That raises another issue. Apart from the fact that are at the sharp end. It behoves us therefore to engage money did not seem to reach the front line in a form them in a process where we listen to them, so that we that effectively met casework needs, there has been can implement the policies at least in the full knowledge turbulence in budget planning. Speaking as a London of what they are experiencing at the front line. Member of Parliament, there was a period when we were having annual meetings with the Minister to resolve the London budget. We were seeing the prospect of 3.24 pm trainees not being employed—before other areas, I believe. Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): I congratulate the Only as a result of ministerial intervention on a number hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy of occasions were we able to retreat from the inadequate (Mr. Llwyd)—my apologies if I have mangled the Welsh proposed budget; we then arrived at a situation in which language—on securing the debate and on having outlined, we were not involved with cuts on a scale that we felt as did the other speakers, the values of the probation would directly impact on service delivery. service and the problems that it faces. Those problems The same happened nationally this year. We had are twofold: the cuts in funding of 2.68 per cent. and the discussions about the prospect of a £50 million cut—the increase in case load at the same time. In Derbyshire, for Minister attended—and then consulted our NAPO example, the two-year trainees who are approaching the members from the probation service. As my hon. Friend end of their training are effectively being told that there the Member for Walthamstow said, we received are no jobs for them to move on to. Out of the existing representations from area after area about the implications, 400 staff, Derbyshire has to lose 30 by March, as well as which demoralised staff, who faced the prospect of not being able to take on the trainees who have completed trainees not being recruited and the potential that their their work. jobs would be cut. Then, a week ago, it was no longer a As we have already heard, the Minister will say that £50 million reduction but a £24 million reduction. We there has been a 70 per cent. real-terms increase in are grateful that it is not £50 million, but that demonstrates probation funding between 1997 and 2007. That is true a lack of consistent planning in budgets and introduces enough, but there are two points, which we have already a turbulence in the system that undermines the effectiveness heard discussed. First, we are talking about cuts now, of the staff, and certainly their morale, in a number of not increases in spending in years gone by. Secondly, areas of delivery. when the increases took place after 1997, at the same What is needed now is a short, sharp exercise of time there were real increases in case load; the bare case standing back to see where we are in relation to the load went up from 159,200 in 1997 to 243,400 in 2007-08. probation service and its budgets and their implementation Yes, there were real-terms increases in funding, but vis-à-vis investment in front-line staff, and where we are there were also real increases in case load, partly because going in terms of support services, in particular information the prison population is up by more than 60 per cent. technology. The Government need to get across to staff since 1997—we now lock up more people per head of working in the field that a clear and consistent vision is population than any other country in Europe. That has being introduced in the coming period, that there will a concomitant effect on the work of the probation be stability and that they will have an important role service, with people coming out of prison as well as not just in providing the service but in designing it as others being given non-custodial sentences in an attempt well—that they will be listened to. A consistent theme to keep them out of our already chock-a-block and of the representations we received earlier this year, and overcrowded prisons. 285WH Probation Service4 NOVEMBER 2009 Probation Service 286WH

We are, therefore, demanding more of the probation more effective in rehabilitating offenders and stopping service, not just in basic case load but in terms of the reoffending than a prison sentence. quality of what we now expect it to do with people—the What is the alternative? Derbyshire probation service work on monitoring, rehabilitation and community worked out that a full year’s custodial sentence would punishment orders that we expect it to deliver. As we be equivalent to £28,000 a year, yet a prison sentence have heard a number of people say, probation actually would be less effective in preventing reoffending and works. We are not defending the existing system just delivering rehabilitation. Those figures were produced because it exists, but because it works. There are hard by the probation service. The Prison Reform Trust statistics to prove that it works. estimates that a year’s custodial sentence can typically On 19 August this summer when, according to the cost as much as £39,000, which would be an even press, all MPs were lazing around on a warm beach at starker contrast. However, even the Derbyshire figures exotic locations around the world, I spent the day with show a huge difference in the ratio between the cost of the probation service in Derbyshire. I hope that I will be prison and that of intensive intervention; and it can forgiven if a number of my examples are parochial to prevent a person from reoffending, get them back into Derbyshire, but they illustrate the national picture and work or education, into housing and whatever else is fit in with the examples that we heard from previous appropriate, including behaviour management, so that speakers. During that day, which was very full and they do not reoffend and cause yet more misery in intense, I spent time with managers, front-line probation the community. officers, victim support staff, community payback staff, On cost grounds alone, it seems madness to endanger education and training and employment staff, the drug such an experiment in favour of the more expensive and and alcohol team, and the accredited programme staff, less effective custodial sentence. That was the view of who deliver behavioural management courses and so the front-line staff at Derbyshire probation service. It forth. It was the works—an incredibly intense day. has long been the Liberal Democrats’ view that prison One overwhelming message came out of meeting all policy should be based on evidence of what works those people that day. Not once in the entire day did any effectively. That is also the view of that well-known of the members of staff that I met complain about pay left-winger, the former leader of the Conservative party, or the usual things that we tend to hear about, rather the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford they emphasised—it shone through in what they were Green (Mr. Duncan Smith), who on 2 November published doing—their immense pride in what they were doing. a report saying that prison sentences of less than two They believed implicitly in the value of their work in years should be scrapped entirely. He went on to explain benefiting the community and turning people’s lives that if the money was made available, the alternatives around. They were imbued with a public service ethos, would be far more cost-effective and more effective in which some journalists and politicians find hard to preventing reoffending. understand when they see the world only in the light of Other examples considered on our day with Derbyshire people being incentivised to do anything if they are in a probation service included the multi-agency public bonus culture and receive bonus payments. protection arrangements to which Members from other When I was a teacher, the Government of the day parts of the country have referred. Derbyshire is currently tried to introduce bonuses into teaching—the only way working with 700 sex offenders who were released from that teaching could be improved was to start offering prison once their sentences had been completed and teachers bonuses and incentives, totally ignoring why so with more than 200 violent offenders. The programme many people had entered a public service profession in started in 2001, and its record of nearly eight years the first place. Those probation staff whom I met, shows that a low percentage of offenders absconds and across the board reminded me of that over and over a low percentage reoffends. They are dangerous people again. They were so full of passion for and pride in and a threat to the community. They may have come what they were doing, but frustrated with what they saw out prison but they are still a danger; nevertheless, the was stopping them from doing the job as effectively as programme has a high success rate with them. Not only they might. is it cost-effective, but it prevents misery for the community What specific examples did they raise? One that we by reducing later reoffending. looked at was the intensive alternatives to custody Community payback, which is now called community programme that has been run in Derbyshire. Derbyshire punishment, is another non-custodial sentence. I have was the first of six pilots to introduce the programme as visited three schemes in and around Chesterfield and an experiment. It involves 100 hours of intervention seen offenders working in the community. On my latest with an offender each week, which is a lot of time to visit, I spent time in the office talking to the staff who spend with one person; it covers curfew, supervision, run the scheme. They deal mainly with young people, education, mentoring, unpaid work and a range of the unemployed and drug users, although when visiting other things appropriate to that individual. It is intensive them on site I have seen people in their 50s and people and involves a lot of staff work, but it is very effective in in employment. reducing reoffending. One virtue of community punishment is that it is a The pilot seems to reduce reoffending, but what is the step before custody. An offender in work who is given a cost of such staff-intensive work? I asked that question short jail sentence, which is ineffective in any case, of the Derbyshire probation service, but it did not know would lose their job and therefore be more likely to the answer at the time. It did some calculations later, reoffend when released. By going through that scheme, and sent me a letter showing the detailed costings. On a such people can keep their jobs and still pay their debt like-for-like basis, a 12-month programme for one offender to the community. It is done in a most constructive way, on the intensive alternatives to custody programme and many in the community really value the work that would work out at £4,575 a year. The programme is they do in and around north Derbyshire. It is useful as a 287WH Probation Service4 NOVEMBER 2009 Probation Service 288WH

[Paul Holmes] reoffending rates. Above all else, the protection of the public and the reduction of reoffending must be the way of paying back society, it is useful for justice, and it goal of the probation service. There is no doubt that it works for the individual. We should not say that it is faces new and more difficult challenges than it did perfect; no scheme is. One of the staff told me that he 10 years ago. For instance, violent crime has doubled had been working there for 20 years and had seen one and drug offences have increased dramatically; those man come back eight times, so it clearly does not work are but two of the serious ones. The probation service for some. What we should do with those constant petty cannot supervise offenders minute by minute, every day reoffenders is another matter. and night, or guarantee that offenders under their I have spent time with all sorts of other groups—the supervision will not reoffend. drug interventions programme, the prolific and other With the current reoffending rate at 36 per cent. priority offender programme, the behaviour management within one year for community sentences, and at 47 per programme, Victim Support, the domestic abuse cent. within one year of release from prison, we are programme and the offenders into employment programme. clearly not doing well enough. The latest annual MAPPA The latter was proud of the fact that it had got 378 figures published this month show an increase in the offenders into employment during the last year. People number of serious further offences committed by the who have employment on coming out of jail on completion most dangerous offenders—admittedly from a low of their sentence are far less likely to reoffend; all the percentage; but only one is still a serious problem. statistics show that. Those programmes work. They all There has been an increase also in the number of level 2 make vital interventions; they all improve quality of life offenders returned to prison for breach of their licence. for the community; they all cut reoffending rates; and The Government continue to say nothing about level 1 they do it far more effectively and at a better cost than offenders, who make up over two thirds of those covered prison does. by MAPPA. They may be the least dangerous, but we The Derbyshire probation staff know that what they are told nothing about them and have reason to believe do is effective, a fact that is echoed in other national that they are responsible for more reoffences than other examples. However, they complain about the self-defeating levels of offender. cuts that they face in funding and staffing, as they will In taking probation performance as a whole and inevitably lead to more reoffending and more problems considering where we might improve it, the hon. Gentleman for the community. This is most certainly one area of focused to some extent on funding. Given the current public spending that it would be self-defeating and economic climate, that is no small issue. At a time of foolish to cut in the years to come. economic recession, we need to ensure value for money. No public service will be immune from economies, and 3.35 pm funding problems will inevitably raise difficult questions. However, value for money and savings in the long-term Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): I start by cannot be bought at the expense of public safety or by thanking the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy putting justice or the running of an effective probation (Mr. Llwyd) for launching this debate. We are all grateful service at risk. to him for doing so. This is my first formal encounter with the Minister since I became shadow Prisons Minister. Ministers have claimed that there has been a 70 per I look forward to many more. cent. increase in probation funding in the past seven or eight years, but the vast majority of that increase has Maria Eagle: Many, many more. not reached the front line. That seems to have been a common theme in a number of speeches this afternoon, and no doubt the Minister will want to reply to that Alan Duncan: Many, many more, perhaps from the point. Despite what might have been overall increases in other side of the House in due course. spending, front-line probation services have been struggling For the last 102 years, the probation service has for the past 10 years. We would like some clarification worked tirelessly to protect the public and rehabilitate from the Minister about this matter. Last week, the offenders through its effective supervision of those offenders Government announced that they would cut the probation out in the community. It is and always has been a vital budget in 2010-11 by £26 million less than was originally part of the criminal justice system. Great credit must go intended. Still, however, savings of £20 million had to to all those who work so hard in what is often a difficult be found in 2009-10, and, as has been mentioned, job, especially as so many of their efforts and achievements another £24 million will have to be found in 2010-11, are left unsung. equating to £54 million over those two years. To make There is no doubt that a service that supervises more matters worse, the National Association of Probation than 175,000 new offenders every year, that supervises Officers estimates that by 2011—so, over the same approximately 200,000 offenders on community sentences period—there will be a 6 per cent. rise on the 2008-09 each year, that supervises a further 50,000 offenders on probation numbers of 150,000 people being under licence each year, that provides over 246,000 pre-sentence supervision. The Minister is looking at me rather reports and 20,000 bail information reports, and that incredulously, so we look forward to hearing her reply. supervises more than 8 million hours of unpaid work in No one doubts that savings will be necessary in local communities is indispensable, worthy of respect, coming years, but it is essential that they are made in the and requires careful management, motivation and right places and that we understand that the service intelligent, strategic leadership. cannot function without front-line services that are This is a seriously important service, but it is fair to adequately supported. The total case load of offenders say that it is seriously overstretched. I shall consider being supervised by the probation service rose by 53 per what it is achieving. Most crucially, we must look first at cent. between the end of December 1997 and the end of 289WH Probation Service4 NOVEMBER 2009 Probation Service 290WH

December 2008, from 159,200 to 243,400, but the number “The impression I have is that for every 15 minutes I spend of qualified probation officers increased by only 15 per engaged in face-to-face contact with offenders, I spend another cent. to 7,120. However, research published by the 15 to 30 minutes recording it.” Centre for Crime and Justice Studies in April 2008 Will the Minister commit to offer to the House not only showed that between 2002 and 2005 the number of the full publication of that survey—with all the managerial staff increased by 70 per cent. qualifications and, perhaps, inadequacies that she has mentioned—but a written response containing her The savings could begin with a slimming of what assessment and explanation of what is important within might be called Government waste. Can the Minister it? The whole point of the probation service is that it explain where the £54 million that was spent on consultants should be looking people in the eye and trying to help went and what they were employed for? Until their them. comments on funding last week in 2008-09, the Government spent £90,000 on training each new trainee probation Furthermore, the tragic case involving Dano Sonnex officer, only to have to tell more than half the group illustrated that some probation officers are supervising that they will be redundant or will have no secure future more than 100 offenders at any one time. A recent beyond March 2010. Of course, we know the sad, sorry written parliamentary answer from the Minister admitted: tale of the Government’s IT project, C-NOMIS—the “There is no specified maximum number of offenders that an custody-national offender management information system. officer may supervise.”—[Official Report, 12 October 2009; Vol. 497, c. 154W.] In the past 10 years, the probation service has fallen I can accept that answer, but will the Minister give us a victim to too many unintelligent reorganisations. The feeling of what she thinks is an ideal number that they structure, organisation and management of probation could and should supervise? I think we would all like to services have changed substantially at least three times, reduce officer case loads by redistributing resources to but change is not necessarily the same as progress, the front line. The Conservatives would like a review and the wrong changes benefit no one. Following the that would minimise the time spent on form-filling, latest reorganisation and the creation of the National ensure that resources follow risk and ensure that the Offender Management Service, we are left with a NOMS amount of time spent face to face with offenders is headquarters with only 113, or 3 per cent., of the maximised as far as possible. 4,270 NOMS headquarters staff hailing from a probation, When the prison estate becomes overcrowded, there as opposed to a prison, background. I am advised that is a clear and obvious physical display of that, and some 98 of those 113 are on secondment rather than being in limitations, but the same is not true of probation services. permanent positions. All that suggests that there is a When the probation service is overburdened and virtual absence of probation personnel in senior positions overworked, as the Prison Service is, in some respects, in the NOMS hierarchy. there is no early-release operation safeguard and there I am acutely aware of the Minister’s sensitivity to are not the same controls of discipline and prison walls. suggestions that NOMS is an expensive leviathan, and I Overcrowding in the probation service can result in expect that the Government will argue that much of the cases such as that of Dano Sonnex and could lead to an budget is money that hitherto would have been included increase in reoffending on our streets. More offenders in the separate prisons and probation budgets. Even if are being supervised by the probation service than there one takes that into account, there is still a rather large are offenders in prison, but there are far fewer staff. hole—perhaps as much as £300 million—that one can Also, resources are often focused in the wrong place and only assume is accounted for by the massive failure in there is too much emphasis on bureaucracy and process the IT systems that it has been designing. Also, it is instead of the better public protection that would come estimated that the ratio of bureaucrats to front-line with more face-to-face contact. workers is about 1:3. The answer to that problem is not simple, short or straightforward, but we can at least try. It is vital to The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy allocate resources intelligently, focus on front-line work, mentioned a parliamentary question asked by my hon. minimise reorganisation and run simple but effective IT and learned Friend the Member for Harborough systems, but what we need overall is intelligent, strategic (Mr. Garnier). The hon. Gentleman considered the leadership from a Government who value the probation reply to be rather inadequate because a survey from service and the vital role that it has to play in reducing within the Department did exist at that time. The Minister reoffending and keeping the public safe. has said that that document was quite a cursory snapshot, but there is a lot of serious information and strong opinion within it. The document shows that in some 3.48 pm probation areas of England and Wales, officers spend The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Maria as little as 13 per cent. of their time in direct contact Eagle): Let me begin by congratulating the hon. Member with offenders, and the fact that many officers spend for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) on securing less than a quarter of their time doing face-to-face work the debate, which I think everyone present has enjoyed. comes through in the report quite a lot. It also found As ever, he put forward his points in a deeply irritating that officers in some parts of the country see those who manner that forced me to keep leaping up and down, are judged as being at low or medium risk of harming and I ended up annoying him because he thought that I the public for as little as 15 minutes a week. was being tetchy. In that survey, there was a tone of anxiety, if not complaint, particularly about the amount of time that Mr. Llwyd: The Minister’s description of me as deeply officers have to spend on paperwork. One was quoted irritating is probably the best compliment I have had in as saying: my political life, so I am grateful to her. 291WH Probation Service4 NOVEMBER 2009 Probation Service 292WH

Maria Eagle: I am glad to have made the hon. allocations from the director of offender management Gentleman’s day, but he has made mine as well, so our to each probation area or trust have not yet been debate in this Chamber has been mutually beneficial. determined and are being worked out, but we will want We have had a good debate about some extremely to ensure that the money goes from the centre to the serious issues. front line. One thing has come across overwhelmingly in everyone’s There is enough money in the budget to employ contribution: Members on both sides of the House 625 probation officers and offer permanent opportunities appreciate the work that probation officers and others to all the trainees, about whom Members have expressed who work for our probation service do in all our concern; they gave the figures from their areas. Some of constituencies and across the land. As my hon. Friend the people who have been offered only temporary contracts the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) ought now to see those translated into proper, full-time made absolutely clear, sometimes it really is a thankless employment opportunities. As all Members who spoke task that they undertake on all our behalves. They do in the debate have suggested, it is nonsense that someone not get thanked enough when they do brilliantly well, as should be trained at a cost of £94,000, and then find they usually do, and when something goes wrong it is that their services are not needed because of budgetary frequently on the front pages of the newspapers and constraints. I can make it clear that that kind of nonsense lynch mobs want to blame someone. I realise, as do all will not occur under the new training arrangements, Members who have spoken in the debate, that that because people will not be offered training contracts makes for a difficult working environment and a difficult without a guaranteed job. I hope that the extra resources job generally. We thank them for the work that they do, that we have found for probation areas this year will because it is generally absolutely brilliant; we all agree ensure that those people are able to employ the skills on that, if on nothing else. The 42 areas that comprise that they have acquired during training. the national probation service, whether trusts or area Several Members referred to the 70 per cent. increase probation boards, are generally high-performing in probation resources since 1997. That figure is correct; organisations, and their performance has been improving it is a 70 per cent. increase in real terms, taking account over the years. of inflation. There has also been a 53 per cent. increase I want to say something about the Sonnex case and in the work load, a point to which several Members London Probation, because that was a particularly referred. There has been an overall increase of 49.3 per appalling instance of failings adding up and resulting in cent. in the total number of probation staff in post over an absolutely terrible situation. We know that Sonnex the same period, and an increase of 15.5 per cent. in the could and should have been in custody at the time he total number of probation officers in post. There have committed those terrible murders, and that the individual been some real increases, and that is without taking into from London Probation who was wrongly charged with account the number of probation service officers, which looking after him was far too inexperienced to do so. has been subject to a bigger increase. That budget No blame is attached to that individual, as was made increase has been translated into real and significant absolutely clear at all times in the reviews and reports increases in front-line staff who are there to do the job. that were published. Andrew Bridges’ report, to which We want to ensure, however, that the money that we the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy referred, provide goes, as far as is possible, to the front line. made it absolutely clear that there were serious management My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington failings in London Probation at the time, so much so asked me to come to one of the justice unions group’s that the gentleman in charge of that organisation felt seminars, and I would be happy to do that—I do not the need to resign. think that I have ever refused to do so. My right hon. London Probation now expects to recruit 120 new Friend the Secretary of State and I meet the probation probation officers, 100 of whom were being recruited trade unions together monthly, and I meet them more anyway, with money that London Probation already frequently than that. I am always open to hearing from had. One of the biggest concerns highlighted in the trade unions that are representing staff, and from staff Sonnex case related to the poor allocation of resources directly, if Members wish me to do so. among the different parts of London Probation that I welcome my opposite number, the hon. Member for needed them. The problem was caused not by a lack of Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan), to his new post as resources, but by poor management and failure to deal shadow Prisons Minister—it will be a long stretch, with with issues of concern, such as the high work loads of tough work to do. He and several other Members inexperienced officers. London Probation is beginning referred to the proportion of time that probation officers to make significant improvements, as we expect it to do, and front-line staff spend in front of computers. I am so I would hate the whole service to be judged by that not willing to accept that all the time spent in front of set of horrendous failings, which have been acknowledged computers is not front-line work that reduces reoffending, all round, and which will be put right in London for the because some of that time is used to make proper future. records, which we would all expect them to do, of the The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy work that they do face to face with the offenders whom referred to budgets, and to the consequence of the they manage. That time is also spent completing the risk expectation, which existed until late last week, that the assessment process using the OASys tool, which is the indicative budgets that probation areas had been working basis of the system whereby the service as a whole to would become next year’s actual budgets. It is assesses the risks posed by individuals who are being now known that that is not the case; an additional supervised; that is an essential part of the job. £26 million has been found, which means that the In answer to a point raised by my hon. Friend the reduction in budgets for next year across the entire Member for Hayes and Harlington, I accept that OASys probation service will be 2.68 per cent. The precise is deeply frustrating to fill in and far too slow. We are 293WH Probation Service 4 NOVEMBER 2009 294WH looking with our staff at ways of improving and Pupil Funding (Haringey) streamlining the process, and we hope to be able to make progress on that. However, it is important that we 4pm do not simply say that any time spent in front of a computer is wasted and somehow means that the system Lynne Featherstone (Hornsey and Wood Green) (LD): is bureaucratic. The work done on computer is a I am extremely grateful to have secured this important fundamental part of the work that probation staff and debate, the outcome of which is so vital to children in officers do, so we cannot promise to remove it completely. Haringey, and I am delighted to appear before you this The hon. Members for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy afternoon, Mr. Cummings. and for Chesterfield (Paul Holmes) referred to the What is the extent of the problem that I have brought situation in Wales and Derbyshire respectively. I accept here today? In Haringey schools, children get nearly that the picture can be different in each local area, and £1,200 less per head—per head—than children in that the number of fully qualified probation officers neighbouring boroughs such as Hackney, Islington and will have decreased slightly in some areas and increased Camden. The differential is partly caused by having to in others. I do not think that it is for me, the Minister pay inner-London pay scales, which are higher, but sitting in Whitehall, to determine precisely how resources receiving only outer-London per pupil funding, which that go to the front line are used. That is why those is lower, yet Haringey shares its character mainly and areas are run locally. It is important that we send the most closely with Camden, Islington and Hackney. It signal that we want the additional money being provided faces the same kinds of challenges and costs, yet those to go to front-line services. I am sending that signal boroughs get inner-London per pupil funding to meet strongly. We certainly want to ensure that over the next their needs, but Haringey does not. Why? How is that year, the extra money—the money that is over and fair, when the challenges are so similar? Our teachers above what was expected—is used on front-line services, rightly deserve the inner-London pay scale, but Haringey to employ trainee probation officers and ease some of also deserves the inner-London per pupil funding. the work load pressures to which Members have referred. When I brought the matter to the attention of the I am afraid that I do not have time to mention all the Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s questions, he agreed other points— that there was an anomaly that needed to be looked at, but that was before the last funding review, when our John Cummings (in the Chair): Order. We must move children were, on average, only £736 adrift. The gap on to the next debate. worsened to more than £1,000 after the last review, which changed nothing for Haringey. Many local authorities could make a similar argument and say that their funding is less than their neighbour’s. In fact, Haringey receives, on average, £845 more per pupil than the Minister’s constituency of Kingston upon Hull, North, so no doubt the Minister could make an argument about unfairness, but that is not the argument I am making. This is not a crude argument about them getting more than us, or more than me. All hon. Members could no doubt make a good case for better funding for their schools. This debate has been requested because the structural problem in school funding budgets means that Haringey schools do not receive funding that reflects their needs, and that is having an impact on children’s education in both the east and west of the borough. It is a historical problem: it is a legacy from Greater London council days, when Haringey was divided into two education authorities, inner and outer London. Even under the area cost adjustment, which is a measure aimed at ending unfair school funding disparity, Haringey loses out. The ACA formula is supposed to give more funding to areas that have higher labour costs, but it has not been used to help Haringey, even though Haringey has the same ACA factor as Enfield, which pays outer-London staff rates. Bizarrely and inexplicably, boroughs such as Kingston and Richmond upon Thames, which also pay outer-London staff rates, still get 7 per cent. more from the ACA than Haringey. In 2007, Haringey was ranked as the fifth most deprived London borough by the Government, yet it was 15th of the 33 boroughs receiving the highest level of per pupil funding. Everyone agrees that education is the key to addressing deprivation, yet even if we look at the most generous interpretation of the differences, compared with the 10 inner-London boroughs, Haringey 295WH Pupil Funding (Haringey)4 NOVEMBER 2009 Pupil Funding (Haringey) 296WH

[Lynne Featherstone] is to give Haringey inner-London per pupil funding, and I am sure she knows that that is the only fair way to received £757 less than the average in 2008-09. This meet the needs of children’s education in Haringey. year, the gap increased to £800, and next year it will There is real evidence of the impact that the lower grow further to £846. That is if one takes the most level of funding is having. For example, information generous view of the situation. obtained by my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil If we move away from averages and look at direct (Mr. Laws) under the Freedom of Information Act put comparators with the neighbours who are most like us, Haringey as the London borough with the highest we find that in 2008, Haringey received £1,183 less per number of schools—27, or almost one third of all our pupil than Hackney. This year, it will receive £1,248 less, schools—predicted to end the year in deficit. and next year the gap will grow to £1,318. Those are not I have been engaging with local teachers and parents normal gaps. I have heard many Members discuss and the unions on this topic. I have encouraged them to differentials in their area, but I have never heard of any describe the effect of the funding shortfall, and I would in that league. like to quote a few of the responses. I was copied into a If Haringey had received the same funding as Hackney, letter to the Secretary of State for and Education and which, as I said, is a borough with similar demographic Skills from a board of governors in my constituency. It and educational challenges, its schools would be states: £39.8 million richer this year. Indeed, based on official “If Haringey was fairly funded, our school could afford to growth figures for 2008-11, Haringey schools would be provide more books, more equipment, more resources, more approximately £120 million better off if they received computers, our classrooms would not leak when it rains, the list is the same funding as Hackney. Per pupil, we get £4,987. endless.” Neighbouring authorities get more: Hackney, £6,170; That is from Rokesly infant and junior school’s governing Camden, which is even more like Haringey, £6,161; and body. Islington, which is still more like Haringey, £5,812. Add This is from the chair of the governors of Earlsmead the ACA, and each Hackney child gets 24 per cent. primary school: more funds than a Haringey child. “The wards we serve are among the most deprived in the What a huge difference it would make if we had fairer country, with high unemployment, poor housing stock, temporary funding. We would be looking at 15 extra teachers accommodation and unusually high levels of pupil mobility. We in each of our 66 schools. Haringey currently has are rightly proud of the achievements of our pupils and staff but we could offer so much more for these young people and their 1,500 teachers; the £39 million differential would deliver families if we had fair funding.” 1,021 more teachers. That is a staggering difference, and what a difference it would make to our children. I received an e-mail from someone who was in the health part of a child protection team in Haringey. She What is the effect on Haringey of this problem? said that Fortismere school in Muswell Hill had to cut Because of the legacy from GLC days, Haringey teachers its truancy monitoring officer in 2007-08, and hence are paid at inner-London rates, and I support their children who were truanting were missed, which was a receiving more. They face many of the high costs that great concern in relation to the protection of vulnerable merit higher funding—not just because of the challenges children. That health consultant/paediatrician said that in Haringey but, most important, the high housing children who miss school may be absent for a variety of costs. problems, including learning difficulties, bullying, problems Comparing the Government pay scale for inner and at home and emotional difficulties, but if the school outer London, inner-London teachers are paid, on does not even realise that they are missing or absent, average, 4.5 per cent. more than their outer-London those difficulties cannot be caught, addressed and picked counterparts. At the top end of the scale, that means up in time. The failure of monitoring was blamed on that a head teacher will cost £4,018 more in basic salary financial pressures by the school, which said, when terms, and even more when national insurance and approached about it, that it had to cut that post. pension contributions are included. Haringey reported The head of Woodside high school in Hornsey and that in 2008-09 it employed 1,500 teachers. From Wood Green was quoted in The Guardian in September, Department for Children, Schools and Families figures saying that to stave off a deficit, she had not replaced in 2006, the average salary for a Haringey teacher was members of staff this year, including a deputy head, but £38,950, or £1,330 more than the London average. that even so she is still facing a shortfall of £500,000 If we use a specific example and make a comparison next year. with Enfield, a neighbouring borough to the north, in Local teachers have achieved a fantastic amount in 2006, the average Enfield teacher cost £36,480—£2,470 raising standards in our borough and they are to be less than Haringey, or 6.8 per cent. On a rough calculation, applauded for their achievement in the face of such Haringey has to spend £3.7 million more than Enfield funding adversity. They rightly deserve inner-London on teachers, but that factor is not taken into account in pay scales and they work miracles against one of the the current funding structure. That is a significant sum most difficult, demanding backdrops. Nevertheless, in itself, but the real harm is done by the recognition Haringey performs significantly below the national average. that the Government give to Haringey as an area of I have no doubt that that gap could have been narrowed need. They count it as inner London when it comes to by our brilliant teachers if the funding gap had been staff costs, but not when it comes to per pupil funding. reduced. Without doubt, Haringey’s teachers need and deserve In 2008, 59.7 per cent. of Haringey pupils received the higher rate of pay, and I trust that the Minister five or more A to C GCSEs, compared with a London would not for a moment consider that the answer is to average of 65 per cent. Other indices show that Haringey take away their inner-London pay rate. The real answer is falling behind national trends. In 2007, primary class 297WH Pupil Funding (Haringey)4 NOVEMBER 2009 Pupil Funding (Haringey) 298WH sizes were larger than the London or national averages In conclusion, I ask the Minister four definitive questions. and, where national trends showed falling class sizes, in First, although the Government clearly recognise the Haringey they rose. University uptake has increased at high level of need and the challenges in Haringey and well below the London average, at 1.7 per cent, compared direct it to pay our school teachers at the higher inner- with 6.7 per cent. across the capital. London rate, why do they not award them the inner-London What is the solution? Each time I mention unfair per pupil funding? I have never understood why we are funding in Haringey, Ministers answer by pointing to considered needy when it comes to teachers but not the dedicated school grant area review, which is currently needy in respect of funding. Secondly, why do the taking place. However, we urgently need interim Government not apply the area cost adjustment to arrangements. With each passing day, Haringey schools Haringey fairly to adjust the unfair funding situation are £109,778.21 worse off compared with Hackney. we have found ourselves in? That differential is there every single day. The scale of Thirdly, although the Minister will undoubtedly say the underfunding is so large that I urge the Government that she cannot prejudge the findings of the dedicated not to wait until September 2011, when the review will school grant review, given that this unfair funding has be implemented. I would like the Minister to commit to gone on for some years and civil servants have clearly emergency funding for 2010-11, so that our schools do not seen fit to do anything about rectifying the situation, not fall further behind. and may once again fail to address it in the current DSGR, as happened with the last review, I ask the I have been encouraging all local stakeholders to take Minister to put on the record today the case that she part in the dedicated school grant area review, in the will make to the review for Haringey to get fair funding. hope that our voices will be heard and we will not be I am asking for her to make our case for us, as a special ignored. Can the Minister give categorical assurance case, and asking how she will do so, since we are not to that Haringey will be in a better financial position at the have a representative on the review. end of the review? I ask because that was not so at the end of the last review, and thus far I have not succeeded Fourthly, and lastly, the review will not report until in getting such an assurance from the Government. late 2010 and its findings will not be implemented until 2011. By then, Haringey will have more problems and A review was announced in July 2005 for the current more schools in deficit than anywhere else in London. 2008-11 funding arrangement, so despite the need level Given that this unfair funding is now clearly causing we were ignored last time and our situation worsened, real damage, will the Minister commit to making an as I have said, from a £736 differential to one of well interim bridging fund of £1,000 per Haringey child over £1,000. In a written statement to the House in July until the funding anomaly is corrected in the review? 2005, the then Secretary of State for Education and Skills pledged that as part of that review the Government I look forward to the Minister’s answering those four would simple questions. “replace the existing distribution methodology with a fairer formula”.—[Official Report, 21 July 2005; Vol. 436, c. 136WS.] 4.17 pm However, in this 2008-11 period Haringey’s per pupil Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. funding only increased at 12 per cent.—below the national average of 13.1 per cent. and a London average of 13 per cent. To us, that is evidence of the previous 4.26 pm review’s failing to address the specific issues that affect On resuming— fairer funding for Haringey. Although Haringey was only 1 per cent. and 1.1 per cent. behind those other The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, averages, it started from such an unfair base that we Schools and Families (Ms Diana R. Johnson): I hope were not getting closer, but moving further apart. that my response will cover the four questions that the Having a representative from Haringey on the review hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne board would have been one positive way to give us some Featherstone) asked at the end of her contribution. I reassurance about the review’s work. I have written on congratulate her on securing this debate. She has raised numerous occasions to, and raised the matter directly the topic several times, and my Department takes it twice with, the former Schools Minister, but, sadly, my seriously. request for Haringey to be represented has been refused. It is essential that every school receives sufficient I ask the Minister to reconsider that request, given that funding not just to ensure that their pupils receive the Haringey is a special case. I also find it strange that the necessary support to learn, but to give teachers the one representative body not included on the review correct amount of pay for their services. I want to panel is the National Union of Teachers. ensure that all schools receive the right funding for their I assure the Minister that this is a cross-party issue. circumstances, including Haringey. As the hon. Lady Although I speak as the Liberal Democrat Member of knows, the matter has been the subject of much Parliament for Hornsey and Wood Green, the issue and correspondence, and a question to the Prime Minister. the campaign are supported by the Minister for Higher It has resulted in strong lobbying from her, the Minister Education and Intellectual Property, the right hon. for Higher Education and Intellectual Property, my Member for Tottenham (Mr. Lammy), the Labour right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Lammy), leadership on Haringey council, the Liberal Democrat and the leader of Haringey council, Councillor Claire council group, obviously, as well as countless teachers, Kober. My right hon. Friend has requested a meeting governors, heads and Haringey NUT, which is here with me, to which I have agreed, and the hon. Lady’s today—and, of course, parents of children at schools in debate today provides a further platform for this the borough. important issue. 299WH Pupil Funding (Haringey)4 NOVEMBER 2009 Pupil Funding (Haringey) 300WH

[Ms Diana R. Johnson] from different councils was in the group. With that approach, a national view could be obtained and potential On school funding, I want to emphasise the impacts on the range of local authorities considered. unprecedented amount of investment that the Government There is a representative from the London councils in have put into schools to address decades of under- the group, and I believe that the issue in London will be investment. Between 1997 and 2010, national revenue represented fully. No individual authority is represented funding was increased by £2,410 per pupil, from £1,808 and I do not believe that an exception should be made to £4,218 in 2010. We are continuing to ensure that that for Haringey. That is not to say that we did not take investment is built on to provide schools with the correct individual local authorities’ views into consideration. funding for their pupils and staff. That is why we As the hon. Lady will be aware, the head of school introduced the dedicated schools grant in 2006, which funding from the Department for Children, Schools changed how each local authority is funded for the and Families attended the Haringey schools forum schools in their area. That amount was calculated by conference last year to hear the forum’s opinions on the the spend plus model, which took the per pupil spend subject. Over the summer, we encouraged interested by each local authority in 2005-06, and applied an parties to comment and contribute to the review. We increase to it. The model was used again in 2006-07 and made it known through our website and interaction 2007-08, and it has provided stable and predictable with partners that we were open to receiving papers funding levels for all local authorities. That is why, from those interested in the review for consideration by following significant consultation, it continued to be the the formula review group. model from 2008 and will be until 2011. I want to explain why the NUT is not in the group. The fact that Haringey receives money for outer-London The Government’s preferred method of engaging with weighting but must pay its teachers inner-London weighting trade unions is through the work force agreement puts it in a difficult position. The issue is not new, as the monitoring group, and unfortunately the NUT is not in hon. Lady said. Haringey has paid inner-London weighting that group because it has not signed the work force for teachers since the 1970s, and its current funding agreement. levels reflect how much it was spending in 2005-06. The I am conscious that time is ticking by. The hon. Lady significant changes in the way that local government is referred to interim measures that could be brought in funded have ensured that Haringey receives substantial now. It is important to say at this point that I understand funding support. Its funding will continue to rise and, that the number of schools in deficit in Haringey in by 2011, will have increased by 12 per cent. from 2008—from 1999-2000 was 28, but in 2007-08 that number had £4,987 to £5,364 per pupil in 2010-11. However, we reduced to 15. I point that out just for information. The recognise that with that increased funding we need to issue faced by Haringey is a long-term one and we are ensure that there is still a focus on pupil characteristics considering, as I have set out, what to do for the future. and their needs. We want to reach a funding formula However, we are not in a position at this stage to make that distributes funding based on the need of each any additional funding available in the meantime. school and local authority, rather than on historical spend. That is why we are undertaking a review of how In early 2007, we consulted on the school funding the dedicated schools grant is distributed. arrangements for 2008 to 2011, which we published before our announcement for the settlement in November A key issue that we are considering is the area cost 2007. We received a clear message that the stability and adjustment, which the hon. Lady mentioned. Haringey predictability of the spend plus method was right for is one of six London authorities—the others are Barking, this period, but that we should carry out a review. It Brent, Ealing, Merton and Newham—that pay teachers would not be right to reopen the funding settlement inner-London pay but are in outer-London ACA bands. now, after we have made it clear to all local authorities We commissioned PricewaterhouseCoopers to do extensive that we will not—giving them confidence that they can research to support the review, and an area that it plan within their means. To reopen the settlement would explored was the ACA. Its research was published in the destabilise the system and we will not do that. Haringey summer and proposed four options for the ACA: an has had, like all other local authorities, an indicative approach based on the general labour market in each budget for the three years since 2007 to enable it to plan. area; an approach based on the cost of living and house prices in particular; an approach based on the specific I commend the hon. Lady for her proactive role in costs that local authorities and schools face in employing initiating today’s debate. It is on an issue affecting other teachers; and a mix of the general labour market and local councils, and we are working to ensure that these specific cost approach. We are exploring each of those matters are considered and to see whether a suitable possibilities, but I cannot confirm any choice at this solution can be put into practice. It is essential that time. There are pros and cons in all approaches and we every local authority receives the right amount of funding shall publish our consultation in January, but I want to to support its schools. Through the work that we are reassure the hon. Lady that we are bearing in mind the carrying out in the dedicated schools grant review with issue of the funding for Haringey when we consider the our formula review group, we are ensuring that that options. need will be met. When my officials established the formula review John Cummings (in the Chair): Order. We now move group, they worked closely with the Local Government to the next debate. Unfortunately, the Minister is not Association to ensure that a large mix of representatives here yet, but we can continue. 301WH 4 NOVEMBER 2009 Selective Licensing Schemes 302WH

Selective Licensing Schemes Trimdon Station, the problem is also focused on three streets: Station Road East, Station Road West and St. Aidan’s terrace. 4.35 pm The history of the areas is similar. We are talking about areas of early 20th-century terraced property, Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): It is a pleasure to with low demand. Owner-occupiers move out and housing serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Cummings. The prices stagnate, offering investment opportunities for issues that lie beneath the surface of this subject are of private landlords. Problem tenants move in, standards great concern for many of my constituents. I believe decline and then there are empty properties and house that the need to extend selective licensing has both prices go down. In a nutshell, that is the history that positive and negative connotations. Selective licensing residents have lived in recent years. schemes have been introduced in several areas of the country and are established where there is low take-up To show some evidence of that, I asked Durham of housing, a high proportion of private landlords, and county council to provide me with statistics on the antisocial behaviour. There are two schemes in my make-up of the ownership in the three areas. The statistics constituency: one is in Dean Bank in Ferryhill and the showed that of the 1,082 properties in question, 408, or other is located in a part of Chilton. The two villages 38 per cent., were held by private landlords. Of those, are about a mile apart and are former coal-mining 51 per cent. lived outside County Durham or lived communities. abroad. In some streets, such as Davy street in Dean Bank, 53 per cent. of the houses were owned by private Both schemes have been established for more than a landlords, the majority living outside County Durham. year and were made possible by the Housing Act 2004. In St. Aidan’s terrace in Trimdon Station, 11 of the Schemes need first to be sanctioned by the Secretary of 25 terraced properties were owned by private landlords, State. The powers under the Act are primarily intended the majority living outside the county. In Arthur street to address the impact that poor-quality private landlords in Chilton, 50 per cent. of terraced properties were and their antisocial tenants can have on the wider private lets, again with the majority of landlords living community. If a local authority designates an area as outside the county. subject to selective licensing, all the private landlords in The county council listed for me the reported problems, that area must obtain a licence, and if they fail to which included, for example, groups congregating on achieve acceptable management standards, the authority the streets drinking alcohol, fighting, criminal damage, can take enforcement action. rubbish accumulating in backyards, unsightly properties I have said that selective licensing schemes have both and poor property conditions. The problems seem to be negative and positive connotations—negative because emanating primarily from properties that are privately the perception is that the area has antisocial behaviour let. problems, but positive because the local authority and I believe that the relative cheapness of the terraced community want to sort out the problems. Other housing in question has attracted a high proportion of constituents, in Trimdon Station, and a group in Chilton private landlords to those three villages. Regionally, want the scheme extended to their streets, because they about 8 per cent. of the housing stock is privately believe that selective licensing offers protection. I believe rented, although nationally the figure is about 13 per that the initiative does that, but it is still early days to see cent. In the area around Sedgefield it is 5.5 per cent., how successful the original schemes have been, although but in the areas of Chilton, Dean Bank and Trimdon evidence from the agencies involved shows that progress Station, 38 per cent. of private properties are privately is being made. let, the majority by landlords who do not live in County During the summer recess, I attended many meetings Durham, let alone in those villages. Antisocial behaviour with residents, the police, environmental health officers is a significant problem for local residents, and is higher and local government officers about problems arising there than in the surrounding areas. That link needs from antisocial behaviour and unkempt residential greater attention. How can a landlord who lives in properties. I met residents in Dean Bank, Chilton and another part of the UK, or abroad, care about the Trimdon Station. Many were angry. They felt isolated community in which his property is situated? On balance, and powerless to deal with the problems that confronted I do not think that he can. them in their everyday lives in their communities. There That does not mean that all private landlords are were major similarities in the situations faced by all bad—I do not believe that for a minute. However, there those residents. They all lived in former colliery terraced must be a problem at that end of the privately rented housing, where private landlords owned many of the sector if it is deemed necessary to have selected licensing properties. Many of them were absentee landlords who schemes that are mandatory for the landlord to sign, did not seem to care who they were letting their properties and through which fines of £5,000 can be imposed on a to or what those people got up to. As a consequence, landlord who does not follow the rules. antisocial behaviour and a local environment that was Selected licensing places a duty on private landlords growing dishevelled became a major problem. Once-proud to act responsibly. Part 3 of the Housing Act 2004 communities felt threatened and not in control. provides that the local authority may declare a licensing The problem in Dean Bank is in an area where scheme for privately rented accommodation in an area, selective licensing is in place and which is dominated by as long as certain conditions are met. The area must be, terraced housing. In Chilton, the problem was situated or be likely to become, an area of low housing demand, away from the selective licensing scheme area in the and it must have a significant level of privately owned village and was focused on the Arthur street, Albert houses that are let on short-term arrangements. street and Prospect terrace area of the village. All three Furthermore, the local housing authority must be satisfied streets have early 20th-century terraced housing. In that the introduction of such a scheme, together with 303WH Selective Licensing Schemes4 NOVEMBER 2009 Selective Licensing Schemes 304WH

[Phil Wilson] tenants, and it is developing a system to be used county- wide, such as the traffic light system that is currently other measures, would lead to an improvement in the used in some areas. The council is also considering a social or economic conditions in the area. Such a scheme good tenants scheme, which would enable anyone looking could be used in an area that is experiencing significant for private rented accommodation to apply to become or persistent problems caused by antisocial behaviour, recognised as a good tenant. That would help them to and where the private landlords are not taking appropriate move forward quickly should a suitable property become action to combat the problem, and in places where the available. local housing authority is satisfied that the scheme’s The council wants to co-ordinate its approach to introduction, together with other measures, would lead private landlords by setting up such initiatives and to a reduction or an elimination of the problem. using the full range of powers that the Government Before declaring a selective licensing area, the local have laid down in legislation. It works closely with the housing authority must consider whether other courses police and uses environmental health provisions to help of action that could deal with the issues effectively have tidy up certain areas. Many of the initiatives that I have been tried. It must ensure that the scheme is consistent mentioned are voluntary, and I want to ask the Minister with its housing strategy and its approach to homelessness, whether he agrees with them, and whether he will look empty properties and antisocial behaviour. It must also into how such schemes could be made compulsory, to consult landlords, tenants and residents associations. ensure that private landlords are licensed, not selectively, but before they can let properties. In an area with a licensing scheme, most private landlords or management companies would be required There are three categories of private landlord. First, to obtain a licence in order to let or manage residential there are good landlords who take their responsibilities property. The mandatory licence conditions would require seriously. Secondly, there are bad landlords who, whatever the holder to meet the following conditions: to take someone does, are not prepared to play the game because reasonable steps to deal with antisocial behaviour; to they frankly do not care. The largest group are what provide annually a gas safety certificate to the local have become known as amateur landlords. They are housing authority where applicable; to keep furnishings neither good nor bad, but they lack the necessary skills and electrical appliances in safe condition; to keep and sometimes have a job other than that of looking smoke alarms in good working order; to supply tenants after the properties they let. A general licensing scheme with written terms of occupation; and to demand references would be useful. It should not involve only paying a fee; from prospective tenants. The local authority may also there should be some qualification or something in the set any other conditions that it deems necessary. provision that proves that the landlord knows their rights, duties and responsibilities. If the licence holder commits an offence or is in The Rugg review highlighted the fact that 73 per cent. breach of the licence conditions, they can be fined a of landlords are either individuals or couples. It also maximum of £5,000. Non-compliance would also allow described the private rental sector as a cottage industry. the local housing authority to revoke the licence. The The number of properties that most landlords own is LHA may apply for an interim management order in small—44 per cent. of landlords who are individuals or respect of a licensable property that remains unlicensed. couples own only one property. A further 27 per cent. That would last for a period of 12 months, and a final own two to four properties. management order must be applied for if the LHA still feels that it is unable to grant a licence. Individual Social trends determine that those who own properties problems at an address inside or outside a licensing area for rent have often inherited the property, have found would be addressed by the use of a single interim difficulty in selling it before moving out or have the management order. The licence would normally be valid property as a spare following a partnership formation. for a maximum of five years, and may be varied by the However, the majority trend is the investment motive. LHA if there has been a change of circumstance. In 1993-94, the landlords of 48 per cent. of English dwellings viewed their property either as an investment The council will reference prospective tenants, assist for capital growth or as rental income. By 2006, the the landlord in dealing with problem tenants or antisocial proportion of those viewing property as an investment behaviour, provide evidence to assist with an eviction had grown to 70 per cent. process, and facilitate a private landlords’ forum to In recent years, there has been an increase in the provide a platform for consultation, discussion and the proportion of landlords who are new to the business. In sharing of good practice. As the county council reminded 2001, 53 per cent. of landlords who were individuals or me, selective licensing is only one measure and other couples had been letting for less than 10 years. In 2006, tools can be used when tackling problems with private that figure had grown to 60 per cent. Those are the landlords. For example, Durham county council is reasons why, in my view, a general licensing scheme for developing a voluntary accreditation scheme that will private landlords should be introduced. be made available to any private landlord who rents out property in the county.The scheme aims to assist landlords The evidence suggests a growing trend in absentee in improving their management standards and property landlords. The purchase of a property is a capital conditions, which in turn will benefit tenants and local investment, which makes some purchasers not landlords residents. but property investors and speculators. They tend to hand over their properties to a managing agent, which The council will offer benefits to accredited landlords, opens up a whole new can of worms because managing which will include assistance in dealing with problem agents are not regulated at all. A general licensing tenants in the form of joint visits and the collation and scheme should not just involve receiving the licence for production of evidence for legal action. The county a fee. I believe that a potential or existing landlord council can assist landlords in referencing prospective should prove his or her competency in letting out property. 305WH Selective Licensing Schemes4 NOVEMBER 2009 Selective Licensing Schemes 306WH

They must show that they are honest and of good There are two possible options for tackling the problem: character, and that they know what is expected of them abandon the use of the private rented sector for public and understand the law. If the landlord is an absentee, housing purposes, or proactively ensure its expansion they must demonstrate how the property and tenant so that it can effectively meet demand. The former will be managed in their absence. requires a substantial increase in the social housing I also fervently believe that where a substantial amount sector to take up the slack. That may be the ambition of of the housing stock in a given area, such as Dean the Government’s housing policy, but it is, by definition, Bank, Chilton and Trimdon Station, is dominated by a long-term approach rather than an overnight solution. private landlords, those landlords have a moral responsibility We must look at measures over the short and medium not only to their properties and tenants, but to the term, and possibly consider growing the private sector wider community. As part of any licensing scheme, the in a more systematic way. For example, we could consider landlord should state what positive role they intend to institutional investment, possibly by housing associations. play in the community. Any growth should be on the basis of a licensing It is not good enough simply to say that property is a scheme that matches the needs of the tenant and the revenue source for an individual landlord. There might neighbourhood in a way that is not happening now. be a market in housing, but it should not be a market Leaving the matter to private landlords, many of whom where standards are driven down in our engagement are absent, in it for the capital return in property and with our local communities. The high level of mobility amateurish in their approach, is a recipe for chaos. common to the private rented sector means that tenants Those people should not be able to determine the are less likely to settle for long periods or to contribute country’s housing policy. Will my hon. Friend the Minister to the local community. High levels of mobility can lead let me know his views on the introduction of a general to void periods between lettings, which can destroy licensing scheme for private landlords? Can he tell me neighbourhoods, particularly when voids last for significant what his Department is doing to monitor selective periods. licensing schemes, and what plans there are to extend them? More worryingly for both tenants and their neighbours, In Chilton, where there have been problems and absent or irresponsible landlords who do not manage where there is no selective licensing scheme, Ben Hewitt, their stock can lead to continuing disrepair issues. That a local resident who was born in Arthur street, has done has an impact not only on housing conditions for a sterling job of pulling the community together to tenants, but on the quality of the external environment work with the police, councillors and other agencies. for the local neighbourhood. Those are all characteristics The Dean Bank residents association is doing the same of the three areas in my constituency that I mentioned. thing, and the Trimdon Station local residents have just Constituents complain to me about the antisocial created a neighbourhood watch scheme. The residents behaviour of some of the tenants in private lets. That is in Chilton and Trimdon Station want the selective not a specific problem of private lets, but it is prevalent licensing scheme to be extended to their area, while the in the areas that I have mentioned. On occasion, tenants Dean Bank residents want their existing scheme to have been evicted by a social landlord, or have dysfunctional work. family backgrounds. More often than not, they land up The communities in my constituency are strong, and in privately let accommodation. If the regulation is they want to live peaceful lives. I am disappointed when tightened, as it is under selective licensing and tenant I see private landlords—some are good but the majority reference schemes, private landlords can choose not to are absentee—buying up communities for profit without offer the individual a tenancy. If the individual cannot due respect to the local people. That is why I wanted to find a house from either a social or private landlord, raise the issue today. I should like the Government to where do they go? They are homeless. make it a statutory duty on local authorities to liaise When a family or individual is a nuisance to themselves and engage with private landlords and monitor them. I and the local community, we should build on the Prime know that there is legislation in place to help local Minister’s announcement at the Labour party conference authorities, and Durham county council is doing all on the need for family intervention schemes, such as the that it can, but there is no statutory requirement on it to Dundee families project. Under such a scheme, problems do things systematically, which means that resources can be resolved in a safe and caring environment, so are limited. If such a duty was imposed, it would go that the individual can be reintegrated in the community. some way to redressing the problems in my constituency, which, I am sure, are not particular to Sedgefield. Fundamentally, there is a case for the private rented sector and those who operate in it to show some 4.53 pm understanding of the public good. They are providing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for homes for people. How can we expect tenants to have Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): respect for the property that they rent if, as is often the Let me start by apologising for coming in late and case, the private landlord has no respect for his property missing the start of the speech of my hon. Friend the either? Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson). I congratulate The combination of a lack of social housing and him not just on obtaining this important debate but on house prices that are beyond the reach of many people, all the work that he has done on tackling antisocial especially the young, has swelled the number of low-income behaviour and bad landlords in his constituency. As he households seeking to rent in the private sector. As said, tackling issues such as antisocial behaviour is one demand grows, so does the problem. The present situation of the Government’s top priorities, and I recognise that seems unsustainable, particularly as it is closely linked problems of vandalism, crime and general disorder not only to perpetuating poverty and deprivation, but have a huge impact on the quality of life of ordinary, to the cycle of homelessness. decent people. 307WH Selective Licensing Schemes4 NOVEMBER 2009 Selective Licensing Schemes 308WH

[Mr. Ian Austin] The legislation is still relatively new, and before a general consent is issued, careful consideration is needed We have provided a framework of powers and approaches of how it would work in practice. I should like to stress, for the police and other agencies so that they can tackle however, that the role of the Department is to facilitate antisocial behaviour swiftly and effectively. As my hon. the approval process, rather than to refuse applications Friend said, a minority of bad landlords still make their for selective licensing. Officials work with local authorities tenants’ lives a misery and tarnish the reputation of the to help develop the most appropriate solutions for the whole sector. We want to identify those people and get problems that they have identified. them out of the market if they are unwilling to improve When a local authority presents a scheme that has their behaviour. In recognition of that, the Housing Act been properly developed and meets the legislative criteria, 2004 introduced a variety of measures to tackle poor our Department aims to turn around approval within management practices in the private rented sector. 30 working days. However, it is right that we should The 2004 Act gives local authorities the discretionary challenge schemes that have not been properly thought power, subject to Government approval, to designate through and that do not meet the legislative criteria. certain neighbourhoods as selective licensing areas. They On approval, licensing schemes last a maximum of may use such powers in areas that suffer, or are likely to five years, and come into force three months from the suffer, from low housing demand, or from significant date of approval. There is no reason why licensing and persistent antisocial behaviour. schemes cannot continue and, in certain circumstances, be extended after their end date, if the problems that the To implement such a power, local authorities must schemes are designed to address still manifest themselves. show how a selective licensing scheme fits in with their overall, strategic, authority-wide approach to dealing I expect local authorities to take a robust approach to with problems in the private rented sector. They need to the tools and powers available to them to tackle problems show, for example, how the scheme will fit in with in the private rented sector. However, I am keen to existing policies on homelessness, empty homes, ensure that local authorities see licensing as a way of regeneration and antisocial behaviour. They must also developing a partnership with good landlords. If selective conduct a full consultation with local residents, including licensing designations are to help address the complex tenants, landlords, owner-occupiers and businesses in issues facing wards such as Dean Bank and Chilton and around the proposed designation. West, it is vital that there be good working relationships between the local authority and local landlords. Selective licensing will ensure that all landlords and The criteria for establishing selective licensing schemes managers of privately rented properties in a designated reflect the experience of private rented sector markets at neighbourhood are identified to the local authority as the time when the legislation was implemented. However, “fit and proper”persons, and that satisfactory management I recognise that there is a need for further consideration standards are in place in the property. Landlords will of the criteria for selective licensing to ensure greater also have to take appropriate steps to deal with their flexibility for local areas in dealing with problem privately tenants’ antisocial behaviour as a condition of a licence, rented properties. and they will be required to demand references from prospective tenants. Breach of a licence condition is an My hon. Friend knows that my Department offence that is subject to a fine of up to £5,000. Letting commissioned the independent review, “The Private or managing a property without a licence could result in Rented Sector: its contribution and potential”, from a maximum fine of £20,000. Julie Rugg and David Rhodes of the centre for housing policy at the university of York. It was published in My hon. Friend knows that the Department for October 2008. Its recommendations included a national Communities and Local Government has given approval register for all private landlords and a reconsideration to Sedgefield borough council and Easington district of the criteria used for selective licensing. It proposed, council to operate selective licensing schemes in their for example, that landlords include their registration areas. Both schemes are now administered by the newly number on all tenancy agreements, and that it be possible formed Durham county council. Indeed, the selective to remove them from the register if they fail to comply licensing scheme in the Dean Bank and Chilton West with the required standards. A register would also enable wards came into force on 7 February 2008 and, to date, us to identify bad landlords and get them out of the 212 licences have been issued and 17 prosecutions are market if they are unwilling to improve their behaviour. pending. The council has shown that its schemes fit in My hon. Friend asked what the position would be in with the overall strategic approach on tackling problems relation to private-sector letting and managing agents. in the local private rented sector. It is also seeing success Letting and managing agents do not currently need in the level of engagement from local landlords operating professional credentials, but the review recommends in its area. Such success demonstrates what an authority full regulation for private-sector letting agents. At the committed to tackling problems with its private rented moment, because professional credentials are not required, sector can achieve. neither tenants nor landlords have any realistic redress As I have mentioned, to establish selective licensing when things go wrong. To tackle that problem, the schemes in their area, local authorities are currently Government propose the creation of an independent required to apply to the Department for approval. regulator for all letting and managing agents. When the legislation was introduced, it was made clear The Government published our response to the review that the ultimate aim was a general consent allowing for consultation in May and have been encouraged by local authorities to establish schemes without seeking the positive reaction to the proposals, having received approval. Such a consent would not absolve a local more than 250 responses. We are now considering those authority of the need to comply with the requirements responses and will publish the results of the consultation that I have described. later this month. 309WH Selective Licensing Schemes4 NOVEMBER 2009 Selective Licensing Schemes 310WH

In conclusion, selective licensing is an important tool tackle the problems created by bad landlords. I would available to local authorities to help tackle the worst be grateful if he would agree to meet me and take me problems in the private rented sector. Selective licensing through the figures that he read out, so that we can consider will continue to make a valuable contribution to raising the problems in his constituency in more detail. management standards in the private rented sector within the designated wards. Through successful implementation Question put and agreed to. of the scheme, the council is sending a clear message that poor management standards will not be tolerated in the region. 5.1 pm I congratulate my hon. Friend on all the work that he has done in his constituency with the local authority to Sitting adjourned.

41WS Written Ministerial Statements4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS Written Ministerial Key Target 6—Key Stage 5 72 per cent. of entries achieve grades A-C at A level. Key Target 7 Statements To achieve an overall parental customer satisfaction rating of at least 85 per cent. in the 2009-10 parental survey. Wednesday 4 November 2009

HEALTH DEFENCE Regulation of Social Care Service Children’s Education (Key Targets 2009-10) The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil Hope): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence issued a written ministerial statement on 20 July, Official (Mr. Kevan Jones): The chief executive of Service Children’s Report, column 96ws about the discovery of a backlog Education has been set the following key targets for of conduct cases which had been identified by the 2009-10: General Social Care Council (GSCC). He announced Key Target 1—Foundation Stage that we would be asking the Council for Healthcare 56 per cent. of children to achieve at least 78 points in the Regulatory Excellence (CHRE) to undertake a review EYFS profile with at least a score of six in each of the scales in of the GSCC’s conduct functions. CHRE today published personal, social and emotional development and communication, the report of its review of the GSCC. The Government language and literacy. welcome this report. Key Target 2—Key Stage 1 CHRE’s report sets out a series of serious operational 89 per cent. of pupils to achieve at least a level 2c+ in reading. failings in the conduct function by the GSCC, which 87 per cent. of pupils to achieve at least a level 2c+ in writing. investigates complaints about social workers. Insufficient 95 per cent. of pupils to achieve at least a level 2c+ in attention was paid to a growing backlog of conduct mathematics. cases, despite additional funding being provided by the Percentage of pupils achieving a level 3+ in reading should Department for three years to enable GSCC to address match or exceed the national average. a growing number of complaints. Of particular concern Percentage of pupils achieving a level 3+ in writing should was the decision to suspend, for a period of time, any match or exceed the national average. new referrals to the GSCC’s professional conduct Percentage of pupils achieving a level 3+ in mathematics committee. should match or exceed the national average. The Government have today broadly accepted all of Key Target 3—Key Stage 2 the recommendations made by CHRE and a full response The percentage of pupils achieving a level 4 in both English to its report is available at: and mathematics should match or exceed the national average. www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/ The percentage of pupils achieving a level 5+ in English should Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/ match or exceed the national average. DH_107882. The percentage of pupils achieving a level 5+ in mathematics I met with the GSCC’s Chair, Rosie Varley, on behalf should match or exceed the national average. of both the Department of Health and the Department The percentage of pupils achieving 2 levels of progress in for Children, Schools and Families to express Ministers’ English between KS1 and KS2 should match or exceed the concerns about the issues raised in the report and to set national average. out clear expectations for the GSCC going forward. The percentage of pupils achieving 2 levels of progress in Significant progress has already been made in handling mathematics between KS1 and KS2 should match or exceed the national average. cases on receipt of complaints and addressing any ongoing risks to the public resulting from the poor Key Target 4—Key Stage 3 management of conduct since July. Ministers have been 76 per cent. of pupils to achieve level 5 or above in both assured by the Chair of the GSCC that all cases are now English and mathematics. routinely risk-assessed and allocated to a responsible 82 per cent. of pupils to achieve level 5 or above in science. manager who ensures that risk is continually reviewed 34 per cent. of pupils to achieve at least 2 levels of progress in as new information arises. Interim suspension orders, English between KS2 and KS3. which suspend the registration of social workers against 70 per cent. of pupils to achieve at least 2 levels of progress in whom serious complaints have been made while they mathematics between KS2 and KS3. are investigated, are now being applied for where Key Target 5—Key Stage 4 appropriate. 54 per cent. of pupils to achieve 5 or more A* - C including The GSCC has also begun the process of reforming English and mathematics in GCSE and equivalent examinations its operational processes and strengthening its infrastructure (SCE to base figures on three-year moving average). to support performance management of its conduct 69 per cent. of pupils to progress by 2 levels in English between function. A remedial plan to address the backlog of KS3 and KS4. cases is now in place and Ministers have asked for 34 per cent. of pupils to achieve 2 levels of progress in monthly reports on progress to be provided to the mathematics between KS3 and KS4. Department. 43WS Written Ministerial Statements4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 44WS

Ministers have made it clear to the Chair of the in the consultation document as soon as possible. The GSCC that they expect to see significant operational secondary legislation, and the related codes of practice, improvements as a result of the implementation of the will include measures to: Council’s action plan by the end of March 2010, including a) clarify the test of necessity and proportionality so techniques the resolution of the oldest cases. The Chair of the will not be used for trivial purposes such as investigating dog GSCC has been asked to personally oversee reform of fouling or people putting bins out a day early; the GSCC’s procedures, to ensure effective governance b) raise the rank of authorising officer for RIPA techniques in and to report on progress to Ministers in March 2010. local authorities to senior executive at a minimum of “Director” The Department of Health will continue to work level; closely with the GSCC to assure and assist in the c) give elected councillors a role in overseeing the way local delivery of its recovery plans. authorities use covert investigatory techniques; d) require constituents’ communications with MPs on constituency The CHRE’s report and the Government’s response business to be treated as confidential information, and therefore have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses and subject to authorisation by a higher rank of officer; copies are available for hon. Members from the Vote e) treat covert surveillance of legal consultations as “intrusive” Office. rather than “directed” surveillance, meaning that it can only be carried out by a very limited number of public authorities, primarily the police and intelligence agencies, and only with independent approval; HOME DEPARTMENT f) clarify how provisions currently in the Policing and Crime Bill will reduce bureaucracy relating to RIPA in police collaborative units comprising two or more forces. Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 Following a proposal by the Local Government Association, I intend to require each local authority to appoint a single official to be responsible for ensuring that all authorising officers are of an appropriate standard. The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism This new role will have to be filled by a member of the (Mr. David Hanson): The Regulation of Investigatory corporate management team to whom authorising officers Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) marked a major step in the will report. protection of privacy. Prior to RIPA, many of the more intrusive techniques which it regulates could be used by A number of respondents suggested that the key to any public authority and authorised at any level, for any effective and appropriate use of RIPA techniques was purpose. There was no comprehensive system of training, rather than the rank of authorising officers. independent oversight, no independent judicial complaints With this in mind, I have asked my officials to work mechanism available in relation to all these techniques, with the Department for Communities and Local and no means by which Parliament could prescribe the Government, the Local Government Association and ranks of authorising officers or limit the purposes for the Local Authorities Co-ordinators of Regulatory Services which the techniques could be used. In addressing this to establish a package of accredited training for local situation, RIPA ensured that only specified public authority authorising officers, and, in addition, to prepare authorities could continue to use certain key techniques bespoke written guidance on how local authorities should to protect the public, and only if they could do so use RIPA. compatibly with the European convention on human It is absolutely clear that a wide range of public rights and, particularly, the article 8 right to respect for authorities need to be able to authorise key techniques private and family life. under RIPA in order to protect us from those who Nevertheless, a small number of local authorities would do us harm. It is equally clear that public authorities have authorised techniques under RIPA in circumstances must respect our right to privacy and only use techniques when most of us would say it was not necessary or under RIPA when it is necessary and proportionate to proportionate for them to do so. In order to prevent this do so. I believe the measures outlined in the summary of happening again, my Department published on Friday responses will ensure that both objectives can be met. 17 April a consultation paper entitled “Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000: Consolidating Orders and Codes of Practice”. This paper set out proposals to ensure that techniques regulated in RIPA can continue LEADER OF THE HOUSE to be used when they are necessary and proportionate, but that there is no repetition of the small number of cases when they have been misused. Committee on Standards in Public Life Today I am publishing a summary of the responses (MPs’ Expenses and Allowances) submitted as part of this consultation exercise. The summary explains how I intend to develop the proposals set out in the consultation paper in the light of the The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet responses received. Harman): The Committee on Standards in Public Life My Department received 222 responses to the will be publishing its report on Members’ allowances consultation exercise. As explained in the summary, today. Copies of the report addressed to individual most of the responses were broadly supportive of the Members will be available in Members’ Lobby from proposals in the consultation document. Subject to 10.00 am. Copies will also be available to Members minor changes set out in the summary, I intend to take from the vote office. forward the proposals for secondary legislation described I will make an oral statement this afternoon. 45WS Written Ministerial Statements4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS

NORTHERN IRELAND designed to take account of likely demand in areas such as coastal towns, urban centres and other places likely to experience an increase in costs. Independent Monitoring Commission There is no evidence that the additional special grant funding is insufficient in total to meet the costs of the new concession. However, I am aware of some distributional The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Shaun issues that have arisen that have led to around 30 (out of Woodward): I have received the Twenty-second report over 260) travel concession authorities at risk of a of the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC). significant shortfall in funding. At the same time I am This report has been made under Articles 4 and 7 of the aware of other authorities that may have received more international agreement that established the commission funding than they require to meet the additional costs and it reports on levels of paramilitary activity in of the improved concession. Northern Ireland. I have considered the content of the It is for this reason that I am today launching a report and I am today bringing it before Parliament. I consultation on whether to allocate the special grant for have placed copies in the Libraries of both Houses. 2010-11 using a revised distribution, which seeks better The IMC report on the serious threat posed by to match the pattern of costs being incurred by local dissident republicans. They conclude that the activities authorities. Any revised grant distribution developed of both the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA, including after the consultation will be published in the form of a the murders of Sappers Quinsey and Azimkar and special grant report which will itself then be the subject PC Carroll in March and a number of other extremely of parliamentary scrutiny in due course. serious incidents, are designed to undermine peaceful Earlier this year we also consulted on the way in political progress. The IMC note that the completion of which concessionary travel will be administered from devolution could be a potent intervention “because 2011. Over 200 responses were received to the consultation policing and justice would no longer be a point of and we are in the process of considering these responses. contention across the political divide” but rather be “a I expect to be able to make a further announcement on platform for co-operation against those trying to undermine the outcome of this consultation in due course. the peace process”. The Government remain committed I would like to emphasise that the funding distribution to do all they can to provide a solid foundation for a and administrative issues should by no means detract devolved Department of Justice. from the success of the national bus concession, which The IMC also acknowledge the very real progress the Government will continue to offer to older and towards decommissioning made by loyalists. They conclude disabled people in England. These changes make no that the UVF is an organisation on its way to going out change to either the services pass holders are entitled to of business and that the leadership of the UDA has use, or to who can receive the concession. Concessionaires given a significant lead to change the organisation and themselves should therefore not notice any difference in shown remarkable commitment and progress in community the service they receive, under the proposals suggested. development. I, too, hope that the UDA will follow The introduction of free off-peak local bus travel through on the commitments they have made and complete throughout England from 1 April 2008 has given the the decommissioning process. opportunity for greater freedom and independence to around 11 million older and disabled people. No older or disabled person in England now need be prevented TRANSPORT from local bus travel by cost alone and the scheme represents a major step forward in tackling social inclusion Special Grant Funding 2010-11 for some of the most vulnerable people in our society. (National Bus Concession) Copies of the consultation paper have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr. Sadiq Khan): I am today issuing a consultation WORK AND PENSIONS paper on the distribution of concessionary travel special grant funding for local authorities in 2010-11. State Pension and Pension Credit Following the extension of the statutory bus concession in April 2008, to provide free off-peak local bus travel anywhere in England, the Government have provided The Minister for Pensions and the Ageing Society additional special grant funding to local authorities of (Angela Eagle): I am pleased to announce our intention £212 million in 2008-09, followed by £217 million for to introduce amending regulations to align the payment 2009-10 and £223 million for 2010-11. This is in addition arrangements for state pension and pension credit with to the funding that Government provide each year for the arrangements for working age benefits. concessionary travel through the formula grant process, We plan to introduce a new part-week payment for bringing total spending on concessionary travel to around people who move onto state pension from a working £1 billion a year. age benefit, to ensure that they do not experience a A special grant report, which specified the amounts break in payments. DWP customers would also be able to be paid to authorities for the three years from 2008-09 to keep the same payday and pattern of payments when to 2010-11, was approved by Parliament in March 2008. they reach pension age. The formula used to distribute the extra funding was In line with current practice for working age benefits, based on data on eligible local population, visitor numbers, people who reach state pension age on or after 6 April retail floor space and current bus use. As such it was 2010 will be allocated a payday based on the last two 47WS Written Ministerial Statements4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 48WS digits of their national insurance number, and will be This is not a savings measure, and existing recipients paid in arrears. Customers will continue to have a of state pension and pension credit will not be affected choice around how frequently they are paid. by these changes. 3P Petitions4 NOVEMBER 2009 Petitions 4P

Life Assurance Society who have suffered maladministration Petitions leading to injustice, as found by the Parliamentary Ombudsman in her report upon Equitable Life, ordered Wednesday 4 November 2009 by the House of Commons to be printed on 16 July 2008 and bearing reference number HC 815; and further declares that the Petitioners or those whom they represent PRESENTED PETITIONS or support have suffered regulatory failure on the part Petitions presented to the House but not read on the of the public bodies responsible from the year 1992 Floor onwards, but have not received compensation for the resulting losses and outrage. Equitable Life (Hendon) The Petitioners therefore request that the House of The Petition of residents of the constituency of Commons urges the Government to uphold the Hendon in London, constitutional standing of the Parliamentary Ombudsman Declares that the Petitioners either are or they represent by complying with the findings and recommendations or support members, former members or personal of her Report upon Equitable Life. representatives of deceased members of the Equitable And the Petitioners remain, etc. Life Assurance Society who have suffered maladministration leading to injustice, as found by the Parliamentary [P000410] Ombudsman in her report upon Equitable Life, ordered Equitable Life (Wantage) by the House of Commons to be printed on 16 July The Petition of residents of the constituency of Wantage 2008 and bearing reference number HC 815; and further in Oxfordshire, declares that the Petitioners or those whom they represent or support have suffered regulatory failure on the part Declares that the Petitioners either are or they represent of the public bodies responsible from the year 1992 or support members, former members or personal onwards, but have not received compensation for the representatives of deceased members of the Equitable resulting losses and outrage. Life Assurance Society who have suffered maladministration leading to injustice, as found by the Parliamentary The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Ombudsman in her report upon Equitable Life, ordered Commons urges the Government to uphold the by the House of Commons to be printed on 16 July constitutional standing of the Parliamentary Ombudsman 2008 and bearing reference number HC 815; and further by complying in full with the findings and recommendations declares that the Petitioners or those whom they represent of her Report upon Equitable Life. or support have suffered regulatory failure on the part And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by of the public bodies responsible from the year 1992 Mr. Andrew Dismore.] onwards, but have not received compensation for the [P000412] resulting losses and outrage. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Equitable Life (Redbridge) Commons urges the Government to uphold the The Petition of residents of the constituency of Redbridge constitutional standing of the Parliamentary Ombudsman in Essex, by complying in full with the findings and recommendations of her Report upon Equitable Life. Declares that the Petitioners either are or they represent or support members, former members or personal And the Petitioners remain, etc. representatives of deceased members of the Equitable [P000414]

987W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 988W

the present challenging financial situation we cannot Written Answers to fully meet it immediately. The MOD is investigating the possibility of third party funding to support the set-up Questions and running of cadet units including further opportunities for joint working with the Department of Children Schools and Families. Wednesday 4 November 2009 Armed Forces: Medical Services

Mr. Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION how many personnel from the Joint Medical Command were based in (a) Scotland, (b) Wales, (c) England, Housing: Energy (d) Northern Ireland, (e) Cyprus and (f) Germany in each of the last five years. [291377] Mr. Andrew Turner: To ask the hon. Member for North Devon, representing the House of Commons Mr. Kevan Jones: The Joint Medical Command (JMC) Commission what the energy rating of each building was formed on 1 April 2008, comprising personnel on the House of Commons part of the parliamentary serving in a wide range of MOD medical divisions and estate was in (a) 2004 and (b) on the most recent date locations, including the former Defence Medical Education for which figures are available. [297671] and Training Agency and the Defence dental services. Information on the location of JMC personnel is currently Nick Harvey: Energy ratings for public buildings being compiled and I will place figures in the Library of were introduced in 2008 under the Energy Performance the House once work has been completed. of Buildings (Certificates and Inspections) (England and Wales) Regulations 2007 and therefore energy ratings Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence are available for 2008 and 2009 only. what the (a) required and (b) actual strength of the House of Commons display energy certificate ratings defence medical services is in respect of each (i) service 2008 2009 and (ii) trade. [297934] Energy Energy Energy Energy Building rating band rating band Mr. Kevan Jones: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 26 October 2009, Official Report, Palace of 207 G 1146 F Westminster column 29W, to the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey). Portcullis House 203 G 192 G Norman Shaw 140 F 147 F Defence: Scotland North and Norman Shaw South including Mr. Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Canon Row Defence how many (a) military and (b) civilian staff 1 Parliament Street 175 G 221 G are presently employed in Kentigern House in Glasgow. including Derby [295106] Gate 7 Millbank 246 G 251 G Mr. Kevan Jones: Approximately 1,400 people currently 1 The Palace of Westminster building classification has been work in Kentigern House. Of these approximately 200 adjusted from ‘Schools and Seasonal Public Buildings’ to ‘General Office’ to more adequately reflect its pattern of use. This accounts are military and 1,200 are civilian. Roughly 60 per cent. for the significant change in rating. of the 1,400 work for the Army Personnel Centre. The remainder are attached to various other MOD organisations. DEFENCE Mr. Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Armed Forces: Cadets Defence what defence establishments in Scotland are presently operated by his Department. [295107] Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what account his Department took of the Mr. Kevan Jones: Ministry of Defence sites in Scotland Prime Minister’s request for expansion of the Cadet are listed as follows. Force when determining changes to its level of funding. It should be noted that this list does not include the [296292] Volunteer Estate, Army Career and Information Offices, Armed Forces Careers Offices or Service Family Bill Rammell [holding answer 28 October 2009]: The Accommodation. Department has taken full account of the Prime Minister’s Black Dog Range request for expansion of cadets for state schools and DMC Beith state school pupils, when taking very hard decisions RNAD Coulport about funding. Our commitment to the Prime Minister’s DMC Crombie direction remains undiminished, as evidenced by our recent response to the Milburn Report, where we have DMC Glen Douglas accepted in principle the recommendation to ensure Ardgarten Training Area that those state school pupils who wish to get involved RAF Aird Uig in cadets may do so. It is recognised, however, that in Aultbea Training Camp 989W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 990W

Balduff Training Area Kirkcudbright Training Area RAF Benbecula RAF Kinloss Barry Buddon Training Camp Balmacara House DSCA Radio Brown Carrick Kinlochleven Training Area Burntisland Barvas Rifle Range DE Hebrides Loch Eyenort Comms Site Ballscalloch Radio Station RAF Leuchars Blarbuie Rifle Range Loch Ewe Training Area RAF Buchan RAF Lossiemouth Burgie Hill Radio Station Rhu Port Logistics Unit ISS Radio Bruxie Hill DE Machrihanish Cameron Barracks Mullach Dubh Comms Site Cambret Hill Mould Site Mormond Hill Comms Site Edinburgh Castle ISS Radio Meall Mor HMS Caledonia Camrhu Monitor Station Cerium Building Mull Communications Site Craigkelly Comms Site HMNB Clyde Castle Kennedy Training Area Greenock Navy Buildings Clynder Comms Site Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment Collafirth Hill Forward Scatter Site NATO POL Depot Campbeltown Castlelaw Ranges NATO POL Depot Loch Ewe Craigiehall NATO POL Depot Loch Striven Colonsay Comms Site Pitlochry Mould and Comms Site Cullaloe Hills NATO Relay Station Museum RHF Glasgow Cape Wrath Bombing Range Queen Victoria School Applecross Rams Dale Range Craigowl Hill Mould and Comms Site Redford Cavalry Barracks Dundonald Hill Comms Site Redford Infantry Barracks Loch Fyne Kirk O Shotts Mould and Comms Site Loch Goil Kirknewton Airfield Rona RM Condor DE Rosyth ISS Radio Crimond Dunion Hill Mould Comms Site ISS Radio Greenock Kyle of Lochalsh Ru Stafnish Radio Station Dreghorn Barracks Scotstown Moor DE South Arm Rosyth Stirling Castle RHQ and Museum DPA Seismic Stations Eskdalemuir DSG Forthside Eastriggs Storage Depot Stornoway DRDF Site OFD Garelochhead RAF Saxa Vord Fair Isle Mould Comms Site Tain Training Area DTE Finnart Ocean Terminal Tighnablair Training Area Forthside Stirling Tiree Comms Site Fort George UGSAS Glasgow Foyers Comms Site Victoria Barracks HMS Gannet West Freugh Galloway Training Area Old Man of Wick Rifle Range Glendocherty Mould and Comms Site Wyvis Training Area Glencorse Barracks Kentigern House Departmental Homeworking Green Lowther Hill Radio Station David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Garelochead Training Area Defence how many staff of his Department have been HQ 51 Highland Brigade Forthside authorised to work from home in the last 12 months. [297739] Isle of Lewis Mould and Comms Site Inchdrewer House Mr. Kevan Jones: During the last 12 months, Islay Comms Site 25 individuals have been authorised to work either fully or partially from home on a regular basis. Inverness Training Camp Dundonnell The total number of employees currently recorded as Inverness Training Camp Kingussie working from home is 191. This includes 74 individuals Inverness Training Camp Tulloch who are wholly home workers and 117 who split their Invergordon Burial Rights hours between home and office working. 991W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 992W

These figures do not include staff who work from The ODA is now at peak activity and going forward, home on an ad hoc basis with the agreement of their personnel numbers will begin to reduce in line with the line managers. Details of such discretionary arrangements ODA project scope. are not held centrally. April 2008 Band Role Number of staff HMS Endurance n/a CEO 1 Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 5 Directors 7 what his plans are for the future of HMS Endurance; 4 Heads of Function 28 and if he will make a statement. [297943] 3 Managers/Technical 79 Professionals Mr. Quentin Davies: I refer the hon. Member to the 2 Executive/Officers 32 answer I gave on 2 November 2009, Official Report, 1 Projects/ 47 column 648W, to the hon. Member for New Forest, Administrative Support East (Dr. Lewis). Total 194

Military Aircraft: Gibraltar April 2009 Band Role Number of staff Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many (a) Royal Air Force planes and (b) military n/a CEO 1 planes from each country other than the UK have 5 Directors 7 landed in Gibraltar in each of the last three years. 4 Heads of Function 28 [296959] 3 Managers/Technical 89 Professionals Bill Rammell: Landings by military aircraft at RAF 2 Executive/Officers 56 Gibraltar in each of the last three complete years is 1 Projects/ 56 Administrative provided as follows: Support 2006: 357 British and 4 foreign Total 237 2007: 271 British and 3 foreign 2008: 186 British and 11 foreign September 2009 2009: As of 28 October 2009, there have been 149 British and 6 Band Role Number of staff foreign landings. n/a CEO 1 5 Directors 7 4 Heads of Function 28 OLYMPICS 3 Managers/Technical 89 Departmental Postal Services Professionals 2 Executive/Officers 60 Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Minister for the Olympics 1 Projects/ 69 which companies are under contract to her Office to Administrative provide mail services; and when each such contract Support expires. [296094] Total 254 Tessa Jowell: My Office has been part of the Cabinet Olympic Games 2012 Office since July 2007, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) is the sponsoring Department for the Government Olympic Executive (GOE). Jon Cruddas: To ask the Minister for the Olympics The Cabinet Office and the DCMS each procure mail what estimate she has made of the cost of hosting the services. Cabinet Office procurement and DCMS London 2012 (a) badminton and (b) rhythmic procurement will be outlined in the answers provided by gymnastics events at (i) Wembley Arena, (ii) Barking the Minister of State at the Cabinet Office and the Riverside and (iii) North Greenwich Arena. [294235] Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at DCMS respectively. Tessa Jowell: The cost estimates for hosting badminton and rhythmic gymnastics at the sites given are commercially Olympic Delivery Authority: Manpower sensitive and it would therefore not be appropriate to publish them while commercial negotiations are ongoing. Mr. Hunt: To ask the Minister for the Olympics how many people the Olympic Delivery Authority has Olympic Games 2012: Essex employed at each pay grade in the last two years. [294786] Mr. Amess: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Tessa Jowell [holding answer 22 October 2009]: The how many suppliers based in (a) Southend-on-Sea and Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) has provided the (b) Essex have been awarded contracts by the Olympic following tables, which detail the number of people at Delivery Authority since April 2009; and if she will each pay grade at the end of the last two financial years make a statement. [296563] (ending April 2008 and April 2009), and at the end of September 2009. The figures comprise permanent staff, Tessa Jowell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I fixed term contract staff and secondees. gave him on 19 May 2009, Official Report, column 1262W. 993W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 994W

Since April 2009, there have been no additional contracts Tessa Jowell: The cost effectiveness of hosting the awarded by the Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) to shooting events at the Royal Artillery Barracks in Woolwich businesses registered in Essex. However, after further was reviewed by the Olympic Board in spring this year clarification of ODA’s supplier data, it has become as part of the process to finalise the venues for the apparent that of the 23 suppliers registered in Essex, London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. It would one business is based in Southend-on-Sea. not be appropriate to publish commercially sensitive These figures do not include those contracts awarded budget and cost information as the procurement for the to sub-contractors based in Essex. Many other companies facilities required for hosting shooting events has not will have won 2012 work further down the supply chain. yet begun. Jon Cruddas: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Olympic Games 2012: Facilities whether she has had discussions with the (a) Olympic Delivery Authority and (b) the Secretary of State for Jon Cruddas: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Health on the implications for access to the Queen on what criteria the venue for the (a) badminton, (b) Elizabeth Woolwich Hospital of the holding of the rhythmic gymnastics and (c) boxing events in the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic shooting event London 2012 Olympic Games was selected. [295477] at the Royal Artillery Barracks. [294230]

Tessa Jowell: When considering the final choice of Tessa Jowell: The Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) venue to host the badminton, rhythmic gymnastics and and the London Organising Committee of the Olympic boxing events in 2012, the Olympic Board took into and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) are working closely account value for money, deliverability and athlete with the Queen Elizabeth hospital, Greenwich borough experience. council and the Department of Health to ensure that the hospital will continue to operate effectively during Olympic Games 2012: Finance the games. Jon Cruddas: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Hugh Robertson: To ask the Minister for the Olympics whether the full exclusion zone required by the International for what reasons the programme delivery element of the Shooting Federations will be in place for the duration Olympic budget has risen from £400 million in March of the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic shooting 2007 to £678 million in July 2009; and if she will make a event to be held at the Royal Artillery Barracks. [294231] statement. [285680] Tessa Jowell: The SEZ planned for the Royal Artillery Tessa Jowell [holding answer 13 July 2009]: The Barracks site is at a distance of 250 metres, which has Programme Delivery element of the Olympic Delivery been deemed appropriate by the International Shooting Authority’s baseline budget, announced in December Sport Federation (ISSF), safety advisers and insurers. 2007, was £647 million. This included Delivery Partner The ISSF has approved the technical aspects for the costs which were estimated, in March 2007, at £400 site. To minimise disruption to the surrounding area, million. The current forecast final cost for Programme the full extent of the safety exclusion zone is only Delivery is £677 million, a potential increase of £30 planned to be in place during Olympic games shotgun million. This increase is due to IT costs and the potential events. The full exclusion zone is not required during for the Delivery Partner to earn higher performance-based Paralympic games as there is no shotgun event. enhanced profits as a result of the good progress being made and the programme being on schedule and budget. Olympic Games 2012: Plants

Pete Wishart: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister for the Olympics what the budget for the London 2012 Olympics how many cut Christmas trees will be acquired in 2009 opening ceremony is. [295429] from (a) within the UK and (b) abroad for growing and subsequent planting at the main Olympic site for Tessa Jowell: This is a matter for the London Organising the London 2012 Olympics. [291993] Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (LOCOG), a private company limited by guarantee. Tessa Jowell: There will be no cut Christmas trees LOCOG are working with key stakeholders to stage a acquired in 2009 from within the UK or abroad for number of inspiring ceremonies for the 2012 Games, growing and subsequent planting at the main Olympic the costs of which will be met through their £2 billion site for the London 2012 Olympics. privately-financed budget. Olympic Games 2012: Public Bodies

Olympic Games 2012: Gun Sports Hugh Robertson: To ask the Minister for the Olympics for which public bodies the Government Olympic Executive Jon Cruddas: To ask the Minister for the Olympics is responsible; which individuals the Executive has appointed what her most recent estimate is of the cost of hosting to each such body; and what the duration of appointment the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic shooting of each is. [296530] event at the Royal Artillery Barracks; what assessment she has made of the cost-effectiveness of hosting the Tessa Jowell [holding answer 29 October 2009]: The event at that location; and if she will make a statement. Government Olympic Executive is responsible for the [294232] oversight of two non-departmental public bodies, 995W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 996W the Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) and the Olympic Olympic Games 2012: Religious Practice Lottery Distributor (OLD). I appoint the members of both bodies and the appointments are regulated by the Harry Cohen: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Commissioner for Public Appointments. The following what provision has been made to respond to demand table lists the names and the duration of the current for facilities to practise faith and prayer arising from appointments to the ODA and OLD Boards. I have also the number of people visiting London for the 2012 appointed the Chief Executive of the ODA, David Olympics. [293217] Higgins. Tessa Jowell: We aspire for the London 2012 Olympic The London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games to be inclusive to all. Games and Paralympic Games Limited (LOCOG) is a The wide diversity of London was one of the bid’s private company limited by guarantee, established under greatest strengths and will no doubt help us achieve this a Joint Venture Agreement with Government, the Mayor aspiration. of London and the British Olympic Association. As Every organisation involved in the Games has considered Minister for the Olympics and Paralympics I represent faith as part of their approach to diversity and inclusion. Government as a member of the company, together The Olympic Delivery Authority, the public body with the Mayor of London and the Chair of the British responsible for developing and building the venues and Olympic Association. On 25 January 2006, the Board of infrastructure for the Games, has already produced LOCOG, with the consent of all three members, appointed Inclusive Design Standards to guide construction Lord Sebastian Coe as Chair for an indefinite period. In contractors and sub-contractors. The London Organising addition, under the Joint Venture Agreement and LOCOG’s Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Articles of Association, I am entitled to propose and Games has set up a faith reference group for LOCOG then appoint one non-executive director to LOCOG’s to engage with all faith communities to build awareness Board. On 19 October 2007, I appointed Stephen Lovegrove and advise how best to cater for athletes, spectators, as a non-executive director of LOCOG for an initial media and other client groups attending the Games— term of three years. including signposting visitors to existing facilities. Olympic delivery authority Name Role Start date End date Terms CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT John Armitt CBE Chair September September 1 2007 2012 English Heritage: Internet David Fison Member January September 1 2009 2012 Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Lorraine Baldry Member April 2006 September 2 Media and Sport how much was spent on the website 2012 of (a) English Heritage, (b) the Heritage Lottery Tony Ball Member April 2006 September 2 Fund and (c) the National Heritage Memorial Fund 2012 in each year since each was established. [297011] Neale Coleman Member April 2006 September 2 2012 Mr. Simon [holding answer 2 November 2009]: The Barry Camfield Member April 2006 September 2 following information has been supplied by the 2012 organisations requested. Stephen Member April 2006 September 2 Duckworth OBE 2012 Total spend1 (£) Christopher Member April 2006 September 2 Garnett 2012 (a) English Heritage Sir Roy McNulty Member April 2006 September 2 2001-02 98,943 CBE 2012 2002-03 142,170 Baroness Morgan Member April 2006 September 2 2003-04 196,760 of Huyton 2012 2004-05 222,973 Kumar Member April 2006 September 2 2005-06 224,126 Muthalagappan 2012 2006-07 189,662 OBE 2007-08 269,596 Sir Nicholas Member April 2006 September 2 2008-092 523,863 Serota FRIBA 2012 David Taylor Member April 2006 September 2 CBE 2012 (b) & (c) Heritage Lottery Fund and National Heritage Memorial Fund Olympic lottery distributor 2002-03 23,797 Name Role Start date End date Terms 2003-043 133,232 2004-05 41,441 Janet Paraskeva Chair March 2006 February 1 2010 2005-06 15,119 Hilary Daniels Member April 2006 April 2010 1 2006-07 24,569 Sir Craig Reedie Member April 2006 April 2010 1 2007-08 16,612 CBE 2008-09 34,611 Carol Ainscow Member December December 1 1 Does not include bespoke project costs. 2008 2012 2 Includes a major project started in 2008-09 to redesign the English Lindsey Holbrook Member December December 1 Heritage corporate website and change its underlying content management 2008 2012 system. Due to go live in March 2010. 3 Includes a re-design and new website build. 997W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 998W

Sport England: Internet UK Film Council: Internet

Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how much was spent on the website Media and Sport how much was spent on the website of (a) Sport England, (b) UK Sport, (c) the Football of the British Film Council in each year since it was Foundation and (d) the Youth Sports Trust in each established. [297012] year since each was established. [297010] Mr. Simon [holding answer 2 November 2009]: The Mr. Simon [holding answer 2 November 2009]: The UK Film Council (UKFC) has spent the following on information has been supplied by the organisations its website: listed in the question. (a) Sport England has provided the following information on their website spend since £ their records began in 2004-05: 2000-01 18,474.26 2001-02 11,512.50 Financial year Total spend (£) 2002-03 6,100.00 2004-05 1375,373.45 2003-04 14,795.00 2005-06 104,772.41 2004-05 12,840.00 2006-07 55,204.38 2005-06 20,499.00 2007-08 22,560 2006-07 48,650.83 2008-09 2177,846.38 2007-08 31,934.00 1 Includes start up costs 2008-09 19,945.89 2 Following the 2008-09 redevelopment, the Sport England website 2009-10 10,039.48 has been modernised to ensure more cost efficient technologies and they anticipate that their day to day running costs will be reduced to Total cost to date 194,790.96 roughly £25,000 per annum in future years. The costs listed above cover the full expenditure (b) UK Sport do not separate costs specifically for incurred by the UKFC to create and maintain its website. the website from wider e-communications. Information The site meets a set standard for accessibility. relating to spend on UK Sport’s e-communications costs, including website maintenance, development and World Heritage Sites accessibility costs and other issues, is included in the table: Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions he Financial year Total spend (£) has had with his European counterparts on the 2001-002 0 maintenance of world heritage sites in EU member 2002-03 19,030.59 states. [297256] 2004-05 28,148.84 2005-06 19,566.60 Margaret Hodge: Neither I or my right hon. Friend, 2006-07 29,560.30 the Secretary of State, have had recent discussions with 2007-08 25,113 our European counterparts on the maintenance of World 2008-09 41,520.60 Heritage sites in EU member states.

(c) The Football Foundation has provided the figures in the table, relating to their website spend: TRANSPORT Air Transport Users’ Council Calendar year Total spend (£)

2004 37,681.06 Mr. Dhanda: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2005 32,628.57 for Transport what the average response time is for 2006 26,606.69 consumer enquiries made to the Air Transport Users’ 2007 57,121.01 Council. [297651] 2008 27,607.96 2009 22,110.29 Paul Clark: Callers to the Air Transport Users’ Council (AUC) advice line receive an immediate reply. Written correspondence is acknowledged within two days and a (d) The Youth Sport Trust is an independent charity, substantive reply is sent within five weeks. rather than a non-departmental public body. The Youth In 2008-09 the AUC handled 12,307 inquiries—5,953 Sport Trust has provided detail of expenditure on its in writing and 6,354 by telephone. website for the past five years: Aviation Financial year Total

2005-06 21,700 Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister of State, 2006-07 9,600 Department for Transport what representations he has 2007-08 30,000 received on the effects on first person view flying of 2008-09 44,500 proposed air navigation order articles; and if he will 2009-10 40,000 hold discussions with the First Person View Flying Association on that matter. [297213] 999W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1000W

Paul Clark: To date, we have received 14 representations In addition the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency about the effect of the proposed amendments to the Air has an annually renewable contract with Royal Mail Navigation Order on first person vision model flying. for in-bound mail services, which has an expiry date of The British First Person View Model Flying Association 15 August 2010. has not requested a meeting on this subject. However, Mail Services are also provided to the Department by the Civil Aviation Authority and my officials would be DX Network Services under two separate contracts pleased to meet them to discuss this issue. expiring on 2 October 2010 and 31 August 2011. Aviation: Safety Driving: Working Hours Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent reports he has received on the Richard Burden: To ask the Minister of State, Department incidence of aerotoxic syndrome in airline cabins. for Transport if he will bring forward proposals to [297224] amend the Employments Rights Act 1996 to extend the definition of Working Time Regulations to include the Paul Clark: In its 2007 report on cabin air, the Committee Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations. [296871] on Toxicity (COT) said (paragraph 28): “it was agreed that the term aerotoxic syndrome was unhelpful Paul Clark: The Department for Transport is aware because the health problems described were variable between subjects.” of the issue regarding a possible lack of provision in the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 for The Department for Transport and the Civil Aviation mobile workers to seek redress via employment tribunals. Authority (CAA) keep abreast of news on aviation health. We have commissioned research by Cranfield Departmental officials are exploring the implications university into cabin air quality aimed at filling a gap in of a change to the Employment Rights Act 1996, via an knowledge. amendment to the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005, with the Department for Business, Dartford-Thurrock Crossing: Tolls Innovation and Skills and the Tribunals Service. When all the facts are known, a formal decision will Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister of State, Department be made on whether changes are needed. Any proposals for Transport what steps he plans to take to reduce the for change will need to be the subject of a consultation length of crossing times for the Dartford Crossing; and process. when he expects such steps to take effect. [296721]

Chris Mole: The Department for Transport and the Finsbury Park Station Highways Agency are committed to improving the levels of service experienced by users of the Dartford Crossing. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister of State, Department In the short term the Highways Agency are in the for Transport whether his Department has made a process of implementing a package of measures, including recent assessment of levels of (a) safety and (b) accessibility the introduction of average speed cameras and further at Finsbury Park station; and whether his Department traffic management technology, to reduce the number has made a recent estimate of passenger numbers at of incidents at the Crossing, which will improve journey that station. [297234] times. Additionally, in April 2009, the Department published Chris Mole: Annual safety assessment on the railway its initial analysis of the current and possible future network is a function of Infrastructure Managers and capacity constraints at the Dartford-Thurrock River Railway Undertakings as set out by the Railway and Crossing. On the basis of the findings and conclusions Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations of the analysis, we announced further work to investigate 2006 (ROGS) and is overseen by the Office of Rail what can be done in the short to medium term to Regulation, not the Department for Transport. improve the level of service provided by the existing Reporting and estimating of annual passenger numbers Crossing. at stations is also a function of the Office of Rail The study recommended further work on two possible Regulation. However the Department is aware that measures, recognising that each had the potential to approximately 5.2 million passenger entries/exits, and generate some small benefits by increasing throughput 2.4 million interchanges, were estimated at Finsbury while avoiding impacts on safety. This work is being Park for the 2007-08 period. taken forward and is expected to take 12 to 18 months The accessibility of Finsbury Park station was assessed to complete. by the Strategic Rail Authority (SRA) as part of the consultation strategy behind the Railways for All Departmental Postal Services programme in 2005. The SRA concluded that the station did not meet current standards for accessibility and Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Minister of State, recommended that level access routes be provided to Department for Transport which companies are under platforms serving passenger trains. Finsbury Park has contract to his Department to provide mail services; since been targeted for investment under the Department’s and when each such contract expires. [296081] Access for All programme towards achieving this, but these plans have been delayed by the decision of London Chris Mole: Royal Mail is the main provider of mail Underground Ltd. to postpone the provision of step services to the Department for Transport. free access to underground trains. 1001W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1002W

Railway Stations: Disabled Railways: Electrification

Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister of State, Department Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what monitoring his Department undertakes for Transport what capital funding he has allocated for of the construction of step-free access to interchange the electrification of the Barking to Gospel Oak railway stations in London; how much funding his Department line; and what his Department’s most recent estimate is has allocated for that programme of work; and what of the total cost of the project. [297232] recent assessment he has made of progress towards completion of that programme. [297363] Chris Mole: In January 2009, the Department for Transport made an offer to contribute a capital sum Chris Mole: 38 mainline rail stations in London towards the cost of the electrification of the Gospel boroughs have been included in the Access for All Oak to Barking line conditional on Transport for London programme and are due to receive an accessible route to taking forward the project, including working up a and between platforms serving passenger trains. Each business case, finding the balance of the cost and bearing of these sites has some interchange with the tube, all risks. Docklands Light Railway, buses or other modes of The Department’s contribution could be up to transport. £25 million, the amount depending on as yet undefined Until detailed designs have been prepared for all savings against the budget for the North London Line these sites, it is too early to give an accurate estimate of Camden Road freight scheme announced last year. the total investment required to deliver the work. However, Transport for London has since indicated that there the programme overall has a ring-fenced budget of is little likelihood that it could undertake to fund and £370 million until 2015. bear the risks of the Gospel Oak to Barking electrification The projects are being delivered by Network Rail, scheme. Although Network Rail and Transport for and progress is monitored at monthly programme group London have made preliminary cost estimates of this meetings and through site visits by officials. Delivery on scheme, the Department has not done so. the programme has improved this year and we expect 11 stations in London boroughs to be completed during Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2010. for Transport what discussions he has had with (a) Transport for London and (b) the Mayor of London Railway Stations: Passengers on the electrification of the Barking to Gospel Oak line. [297233] Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what the maximum number of passengers Chris Mole: There have been a number of discussions is that can be accommodated at Euston station at any between Department for Transport Ministers and both point consistent with safety requirements; and on how Transport for London officials and the Mayor of London many occasions since 1 January 2009 this number has on the electrification of the Barking to Gospel Oak line. been (a) reached and (b) exceeded. [296743] In addition there has been ongoing official engagement on the subject. Chris Mole: Safety arrangements at Euston are covered by Network Rail’s authorised safety management system and therefore this is an operational matter for Network Railways: Franchises Rail as the operator of Euston Station. The hon. Member should contact Network Rail’s chief executive at the Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department following address for a response to his questions: for Transport how much has been (a) received from Iain Coucher and (b) paid out to each train operating company Chief Executive under cap and collar franchise arrangements in each Network Rail year since 2004. [296773] Kings Place 90 York Way Chris Mole [holding answer 2 November 2009]: The amounts paid out and received for franchises subject to London, N1 9AG. cap and collar arrangements is set out in the following table. Complete data for the year ending 31 March 2010 Railways: Contract Cleaning will be available in summer 2010:

Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister of State, Department £ million for Transport what recent representations he has received Revenue share entitlement/(revenue support on the working conditions of contract cleaners providing liability) in March each year TOC 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 services to train operating companies. [297433] Northern Rail — — — 6.3 7.8 Chris Mole: At a recent meeting between the RMT First Capital ————— Parliamentary Group and the Secretary of State for Connect Transport, the issue of conditions of contract cleaners Stagecoach ————1.5 South Western on Eurostar was raised. Ministers have also received (SSW) correspondence in relation to the issue. 1003W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1004W

line service. As a condition of this arrangement, the £ million Department required Transport for London and the Revenue share entitlement/(revenue support liability) in March each year Mayor to keep stakeholders informed. TOC 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 West Coast Railway Line: Speed Limits National — — (3.4) — (14.0) Express East Mr. Martlew: To ask the Minister of State, Department Anglia for Transport whether there are plans to improve the (NXEA) signalling on the West Coast Main Line to enable First Greater ————(47.8) Western 135 mph running speeds. [296829] London ————2.1 Midland Chris Mole: The Government have no plans for 135 miles (LOM) per hour (mph) running. The West Coast Main Line Virgin West ————33.0 was recently modernised and resignalled to permit Coast (VWC) significantly more 125 mph operations across the route. This has significantly reduced journey times and provided more frequent services for millions of passengers every Railways: Penalty Fares year. In January the Government established the High Sir John Stanley: To ask the Minister of State, Speed Two company which, by the end of the year, will Department for Transport if he will (a) extend the make a proposal for an entirely new line between London deadline of 17 November 2009 and (b) conduct a wider and the West Midlands and advise on the potential public consultation in respect of his consultation with development of the high speed network to the north of the rail industry on penalty fares. [295952] England and Scotland. Chris Mole [holding answer 27 October 2009]: The documentation for the Department for Transport’s consultation on the railway Penalty Fares Rules and WOMEN AND EQUALITY Policy has today been published on the Department’s website and the deadline for responses has been extended Departmental Procurement to 27 January 2010. Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister for Women and Sir John Stanley: To ask the Minister of State, Equality what progress the Government Equalities Department for Transport if he will publish a public Office has made in implementing the recommendations consultation document setting out his proposals for the of the Glover Report in its procurement processes. updating of the Penalty Fares Rules 2002. [295954] [287145]

Chris Mole [holding answer 27 October 2009]: The Michael Jabez Foster: The Government Equalities documentation relating to consultation on the railway Office has a two-fold interest in the recommendations Penalty Fares Rules and Penalty Fares Policy has today of the Glover Report; both internally with regard to its been published on the Department for Transport’s website own procurement processes and externally, with regard and the deadline for responses has been extended to to reflecting its recommendations within the legislative 27 January 2010. and non-legislative equality in procurement work we lead on. On the former, we will act on Office of Government South London Railway Line Commerce central guidance with regard to its implementation as it is rolled out. Kate Hoey: To ask the Minister of State, Department On the latter, and in our role as equality lead across for Transport what discussions his Department has had government, GEO considers that the recommendations with (a) Transport for London, (b) London Travel of the Glover Report are compatible with the equality Watch, (c) the Mayor of London and (d) other principles expressed around procurement and are engaged organisations on the proposed withdrawal of passenger with OGC in progressing the initiatives. rail services from the South London Line. [297690]

Chris Mole: This service change was consulted upon as part of the Department for Transport’s May 2008 WALES South Central Franchise Consultation. Transport for London, London TravelWatch and a number of other Departmental Homeworking interested parties responded to this consultation. The proposed replacement of the London Victoria to London David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Bridge service was also consulted upon by Network Wales how many staff of his Department have been Rail as part of the South London Line Route Utilisation authorised to work from home in the last 12 months. Strategy (July 2007). [297734] The withdrawal of the planned replacement London Victoria to Bellingham service was requested by the Mr. Hain: One member of staff (less than 2 per cent. Mayor of London and Transport for London with of the staff employed in the Wales Office) works from funds directed instead toward an extended East London home twice weekly. 1005W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1006W

TREASURY Ian Pearson: The Government set out its latest assessment of UK economic developments and prospects in Budget Business: Taxation 2009 (HC 407). We will produce updated forecasts in the pre-Budget report as normal. Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Gold and Foreign Exchange Reserves Exchequer how many small businesses (a) in Coventry and (b) in the UK have applied to defer their tax Andrew Rosindell: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer payments over the financial year under the what plans his Department has for the future level of Government’s late payment scheme. [297388] gold reserves held by the Government. [297179]

Mr. Timms: Since its introduction on 24 November Ian Pearson: I refer the hon. Member to the Government 2008 the Business Payment Support Service has agreed statement of March 2004. The position has not changed. over 220,300 time to pay arrangements in the UK with http://www.hm_treasury.gov.uk/press_23_04.htm businesses to spread tax payments of about £3.9 billion. This has helped to support more than 150,000 businesses, Andrew Rosindell: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the vast majority of whom are small and medium sized, what recent discussions he has had on the level of gold and employ an estimated 600,000 people. Over 90 per reserves held by the Government. [297181] cent. of the value of arrangements is being paid on time without prompting. Ian Pearson: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has Figures for Coventry show that nearly 840 arrangements regular discussions on all aspects of reserve management. have been agreed worth £18 million. HM Revenue and Customs does not have the specific number of small Inflation businesses as the service is open to all sizes of business and some businesses might have more than one agreement Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Chancellor of the to spread payments of more than one type of tax. Exchequer what estimate he has made of the projected inflation rate in each of the next 12 months. [297240] Child Care Vouchers Ian Pearson: The Budget 2009 forecast is for the Jessica Morden: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer consumer prices index (CPI) inflation rate to fall to what estimate he has made of the proportion of parents 1 per cent. by the end of 2009, and remain below target receiving childcare vouchers from employers who pay in 2010. CPI inflation is forecast to return close to income tax at the basic rate. [295940] target during 2011 with the lagged effects of monetary policy easing continuing to feed through. Updated forecasts Mr. Timms: Published research, commissioned by for inflation will be published later this autumn in the HM Revenue and Customs in 2006, by the National pre-Budget report, as is usual practice. Centre for Social Research (NatCen) found that 7 per The Government do not publish a monthly forecast cent. of the recipients of child care vouchers were basic for the inflation rate. rate taxpayers in late 2005. The report is available at: Northern Rock http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/research-report23.htm 30 per cent. of child care voucher recipients were higher Andrew Rosindell: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer rate taxpayers, who account for 6 per cent. of parents. what recent discussions he has had with representatives This group also receive a proportionally higher amount of former shareholders of Northern Rock; and if he of the relief that goes to parents through Employer will make a statement. [297287] Supported Childcare due to their higher marginal tax rates. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers and officials have meetings with a wide variety of organisations in Child Trust Fund: Expenditure the public and private sectors as part of the process of policy development and delivery. As was the case with Mr. Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s what his most recent estimate is of the cost to the practice to provide details of all such meetings. public purse of the Child Trust Fund in each year Northern Rock: Compensation between 2010-11 and 2015-16; and if he will make a statement. [297324] Mr. Todd: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The latest projections for the pursuant to the answer of 19 June 2009, Official Report, Exchequer cost of the Child Trust Fund are given in the column 548W, on Northern Rock: compensation, if he HMRC publication Child Trust Fund Statistical Report will publish the submissions made by the Government 2009, available via the HMRC website. to the Northern Rock independent valuer. [297396] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government have made Economic Growth submissions to the Northern Rock independent valuer, as have other parties who will be affected by the outcome Andrew Rosindell: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the valuation exercise. It will be for the independent what estimate he has made of the level of economic valuer to decide how far he publishes the contents of growth in each of the next 12 months. [297173] submissions he has received. 1007W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1008W

Presbyterian Mutual Society Mr. Timms: The estimated taxable profits from 1996-97 to 2007-08 for those who made a net profit on furnished Lady Hermon: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer holiday lettings is shown in the following table. Following what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State the changes announced at Budget 2009, figures for tax for Northern Ireland on the time taken by the Prime years 2006-07 and 2007-08 include profits from furnished Minister’s Working Group on the Presbyterian Mutual property lettings within the European Economic Area. Society to report its conclusions. [297176] The revenue accruing to the Exchequer would depend on the marginal rate of each taxpayer, which depends Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Working Group on the on their specific circumstances. Presbyterian Mutual Society will report its conclusions to the Prime Minister when all options have been fully Profits from FHL properties considered. (£million) Taxation: Holiday Accommodation 1996-97 60 1997-98 60 Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 1998-99 60 if he will consider the merits of delaying until April 1999-2000 70 2011 the proposed changes to the furnished holiday 2000-01 70 letting rules to undertake a consultation. [297308] 2001-02 70 2002-03 80 Mr. Swire: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2003-04 90 what consideration he has given to delaying the 2004-05 90 proposed revision of the Furnished Holiday Lettings 2005-06 90 rules until after April 2010 in order to consult with the 2006-07 100 tourism industry. [297684] 2007/08 140 Mr. Timms: The Government announced the withdrawal No estimates are available for later years. of the furnished holiday lettings scheme from 2010 in Budget 2009 to allow those affected time to plan. This Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer change was necessary because the furnished holiday what estimate he has made of the number of holiday lettings rules may not be compliant with EU law. It is cottages which will be affected by the proposed changes therefore not appropriate to consult on whether a change to the furnished holiday lettings rules. [297320] should be made. Draft legislation and an impact assessment will be Mr. Timms: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer published alongside the 2009 pre-Budget report. The I gave the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Government will be happy to receive comments at that Opik) on 20 October 2009, Official Report, column time. 1413W.

Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) how many people were granted relief under the what plans he has to raise the occupancy threshold for furnished holiday letting rules in respect of an eligibility rules in relation to furnished holiday lettings. occupancy rate claim of (a) 10, (b) 15, (c) 20 and (d) [297629] 25 weeks and over in the 2007-08 tax year; [297310] (2) what taxation arrangements will apply to owners Mr. Timms: There are no plans to raise the occupancy of (a) self-catering cottages and (b) bed and breakfast threshold for eligibility in relation to the Furnished establishments following the proposed changes to the Holiday Lettings (FHL) rules. It was announced at Budget 2009 that the FHL rules would be repealed with furnished holiday letting rules. [297312] effect from April 2010. Mr. Timms: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer Draft legislation and an impact assessment will be I gave on 20 October 2009, Official Report, column 1413W, published alongside the 2009 pre-Budget report. The to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Government will be happy to receive comments at that Öpik). time.

Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Taxation: South West how many owners of holiday cottages in the UK who are in the European Economic Area claimed tax relief Andrew George: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer under the furnished holiday letting rules in the 2007-08 how much (a) individuals, (b) businesses, (c) estates tax year. [297313] and (d) other bodies in (i) Cornwall and (ii) the Isles of Scilly have paid in tax in each year since 1997. [297276] Mr. Timms: Non-UK residents are not eligible to claim tax relief under the furnished holiday lettings Mr. Timms: Information on individual taxpayers resident rules. on the Isles of Scilly is not available as the sample size is too small to provide reliable estimates of income tax Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer liability. Aggregate figures for Cornwall and the Isles of what revenue accrued to the Exchequer under the Scilly are shown in table 3.14 “Income and tax by furnished holiday letting rules in each year since 1997; borough and district or unitary authority” available at: and what estimate he has made of revenue under such www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_distribution/menu-by- rules in each year to 2012. [297315] year.htm 1009W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1010W

It is not possible to provide reliable estimates for challenges to overcome in working for the closure of revenue received from other taxpayers at this geographical Guantánamo Bay, and these issues are discussed in the level for the following reasons: context of our ongoing dialogue with the US on a range a company’s registered office may not reflect where economic of human rights, counter terrorism and international activity occurs as companies may have business premises or legal issues. trade anywhere; We will continue to discuss with the US government VAT registration addresses may not match the location the how best we can work with them, and our European trader operates from, for example a chain would only have one partners, to achieve closure in a manner that ensures VAT registration covering all its branches; and both human rights and potential security concerns posed not all Inheritance Tax returns have a postcode, national in determining the disposition of the detainees are estimates based on a sample of data. appropriately addressed. Welfare Tax Credits Africa: Armed Conflict

Steve Webb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign what the (a) mean and (b) median income of tax and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he credit claimants was in each of the last five years; and if has had with the government of (a) Sudan, (b) South he will make a statement. [296511] Sudan, (c) Uganda and (d) Democratic Republic of Congo on the current level of activity of the Lords Mr. Timms: Tax credits are a carefully targeted system Resistance Army. [296047] of support that provides the greatest help to families on the lowest incomes. Over 75 per cent. of tax credit Chris Bryant: The UK regularly discusses Lords support to in-work families in 2007-08 went to families Resistance Army (LRA) activity with the government earning under £20,000. Families on higher incomes also of Uganda and stresses the importance of continued receive support, but this is reduced in value through regional co-operation to deal with the threat and civilian tapering. protection from LRA attacks. At the recent UN General Assembly Ministerial week, my hon. Friend the Minister The targeted nature of tax credits is reflected in the of State (Mr. Lewis), discussed the LRA with Ugandan following table, which shows the mean and median Foreign Minister Sam Kutesa. annual household income of in-work families benefiting from tax credits for each year between 2003-04 and Our posts in Kampala, Juba, Khartoum, and Kinshasa 2007-08. continue to monitor the situation closely, and have raised the issue with other interested parties, including £ the UN and host governments. Mean income Median income In addition, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister’s Special Representative on Conflict Resolution Mechanisms, 2003-04 23,689 23,828 Jack McConnell MSP, discussed LRA activity during 2004-05 22,663 22,021 his recent visit to Goma, Eastern Democratic Republic 2005-06 22,868 22,228 of Congo. 2006-07 23,401 22,509 2007-08 23,599 22,643 Burma

This information is based on the annual household Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for income used to calculate the tax credit award but excluding Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions the income disregard. Detailed information on what he has had with his French counterpart on EU sanctions type of income is taken into account for tax credit on Burma; and if he will make a statement. [294541] purposes is published in the leaflet “Child and Working Tax Credit—a guide”, available at: Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxcredits/forms-and-leaflets/ Secretary discussed this issue with his French counterpart leaflets.htm at a meeting on 6 July 2009 during the Anglo-French The same information for out of work families is not Summit. available. France has consistently given its support to calls for the immediate, unconditional release of Aung San Suu Kyi, together with all other political prisoners in Burma, and agreed that the EU should respond with additional, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE targeted financial and other measures when the guilty verdict was delivered in the trial of Aung San Suu Kyi Afghanistan: Detainees on 11 August 2009. Most recently, the Foreign Secretary and the French Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Minister were present at the UN meeting on Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions Burma chaired by the Secretary-General on 23 September he has had with the United States administration on 2009. proposals to close the Guantánamo Bay detention camp. [297092] Colombia: Foreign Relations

Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Government have long called for Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the closure of Guantánamo Bay and we have welcomed and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of US President Barack Obama’s commitment to close the 28 October 2009, Official Report, column 377W, on facility. We recognise that there are important practical Colombia: foreign relations, on what occasions in the 1011W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1012W last 12 months the British Ambassador in Bogota has incidents during that period, Kosovo remains stable. met the Colombian Foreign Minister to discuss (a) Against this background, North Atlantic Treaty bilateral relations and (b) broader global issues. Organisation (NATO) Defence Ministers agreed in June [297699] this year to start transitioning NATO’s Kosovo Force (KFOR) to a deterrent presence. EULEX, the EU Rule Chris Bryant: Our ambassador in Bogota has met of Law Mission, providing policing, customs and justice with the Colombian Foreign Minister on numerous sector support, has been operating at full operational occasions over the last 12 months. The most recent capacity since April. substantive meeting was on 22 October 2009. Since independence, Kosovo has made steady progress Departmental Databases in establishing the legal and institutional framework set out in the Comprehensive Settlement Proposal of the UN Secretary-General’s Special Envoy, Martti Ahtisaari, Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign including in relation to safeguarding the rights of Kosovo’s and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of Serb population, and other minority groups. 26 October 2009, Official Report, column 70W, on the Kosovo’s longer term sustainability and prosperity Diplomatic Service: databases, for what reason his depends on its EU perspective. The Government fully Department’s online registration and crisis database support the proposals put forward by the European does not break down registrations on an annual basis; Commission in its study entitled ‘Kosovo—Fulfilling its and if he will make a statement. [297698] European Perspective’, published on 14 October 2009. It is also vital that Kosovo’s government addresses the Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office concerns about governance and the rule of law expressed (FCO)’s overseas online registration and crisis database, in the European Commission’s Progress Report published LOCATE, was designed primarily as a crisis tool. As on the same date. such it breaks down registrations by countries, by regions or by districts—all of which enables FCO staff to assess Kosovo is currently preparing to hold municipal elections the number of British nationals potentially affected in on 15 November 2009. Together with partners, we will an emergency. be contributing to international monitoring of the elections. We are examining the costs and benefits of introducing a feature that enables the FCO to track the number of Pakistan: Politics and Government registrations on a yearly basis. The cost of implementation needs to be balanced against other crisis requirements. Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has Honduras: Politics and Government received on the security situation in Pakistan. [297321]

Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr. Ivan Lewis [holding answer 2 November 2009]: and Commonwealth Affairs what his latest assessment There has been a series of deadly terrorist attacks is of the political situation in Honduras; and if he will across Pakistan over the last few weeks. On 2 November make a statement. [297485] 2009, a bomb exploded outside the National Bank in Rawalpindi, with initial reports of 22 people killed and Chris Bryant: The UK condemned the removal of the over 40 injured. On 28 October 2009, at least 100 people democratically elected President of Honduras, Manuel were killed and over 200 injured in a car bomb attack in Zelaya, in June. Since then, along with our EU partners, Peshawar, North West Frontier Province. Other recent we have been actively supporting the regionally-led targets have included the UN World Food Programme negotiation process to resolve the crisis, notably mediation and the Pakistan Army general headquarters in Rawalpindi. efforts led by President Arias of Costa Rica and the These attacks have been linked to the launching of Organisation of American States. Pakistan Army operations against Pakistan Taliban We are pleased that recent developments in the process militants in South Waziristan. signal a willingness by representatives of President Zelaya As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister stated on and the de facto government to come to a resolution 14 October 2009, Official Report, column 300, we will ahead of the presidential elections later this month. We continue to work closely with Pakistan to counter the welcome, in particular, the signing of an accord on 30 threat to both Pakistan and the UK from violent extremism. October 2009 that could lead to the establishment of a power sharing government, and a return to democratic, Pakistan: Religious Freedom constitutional order in the country. We understand that this agreement still needs to be considered by the Supreme Court and Congress in Tegucigalpa. Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he Kosovo: Politics and Government has made to the government of Pakistan on freedom of religion in that country; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign [297215] and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he has made of the (a) security and (b) political situation Mr. Ivan Lewis: We continue to urge the government in Kosovo; and if he will make a statement. [297625] of Pakistan to fully guarantee the fundamental rights of all Pakistani citizens, particularly the most vulnerable Chris Bryant: There has been a steady improvement (women, minorities and children) as laid down in the of the security environment in Kosovo over the last constitution of Pakistan and in accordance with 18 months and, although there have been minor security international standards. 1013W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1014W

The UK supports freedom of religion and condemns in Sri Lanka. This has included support to the United instances where individuals are persecuted because of Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) to undertake child their faith or belief. With our EU partners, we have protection campaigns in the IDP camps. A full breakdown raised our concerns over the situation of religious minorities of funding can be found at: in Pakistan and the frequent abuse of the blasphemy www.dfid.gov.uk/srilankacrisis legislation. Turks and Caicos Islands Shaker Aamer Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the written Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions ministerial statement of 12 October 2009, Official Report, he has had with the United States administration on column 9WS, on the Turks and Caicos Islands, when Guantánamo detainee (a) Shaker Aamer and (b) Ahmed the (a) advisory group and (b) consultative forum last Belbacha. [297091] met; and if he will publish the minutes of each meeting. [297484] Mr. Ivan Lewis: On recent discussions with the US administration on Shaker Aamer, I refer the hon. Member Chris Bryant: The Advisory Council last met on 28 to my answer of 12 October 2009, Official Report, October 2009 and the Consultative Forum on 20 October column 34W. 2009. The formal minutes of the Advisory Council are The Government’s decision to make representation not made public, but the Turks and Caicos Islands to the US for the release and return of former residents Government Information Service issues a press release from Guantanamo Bay was limited to those with links summarising the Council’s discussions after each meeting. to the UK as evidenced by their past lawful residence It is hoped that these will be available on the Turks and here. This does not include Ahmed Belbacha because, Caicos Islands Government website although he was present in the UK for a time, he was www.tcgov.tc not here lawfully. shortly. Sri Lanka: Internally Displaced Persons There is currently no transcript of the meetings of the Consultative Forum, but the proceedings are recorded Mr. Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for and are broadcast live on local radio. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what recent representations he has made to the Sri Lankan government on the sexual abuse of children in camps for internally displaced persons in that country; [297641] ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE (2) what recent representations he has made to the Biofuels Sri Lankan government on violence against women in camps for internally displaced persons in that country; Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy [297463] and Climate Change what his Department’s policy is (3) what recent representations he has made to the on the promotion of micro-generation projects Sri Lankan government on trends in the level of powered by (a) bio-diesel produced from used cooking prostitution in camps for internally displaced persons oil and (b) other waste-derived products. [297710] in that country. [297462] Mr. Michael Foster: I have been asked to reply. Joan Ruddock: The Government recognise the contribution which waste-derived products, including The UK has consistently advocated for the treatment those from used cooking oil, can make to our renewable of all internally displaced persons (IDPs) held in camps energy targets and to the effective management of waste. in Sri Lanka to be in accordance with international We will consider further the position of these types of standards. We continue to press the Government of Sri production under the various financial incentives for Lanka to allow humanitarian agencies access to the renewable energy, and will make specific proposals on camps to assess allegations of abuses such as violence their use for heating in the forthcoming consultation on against women, the sexual abuse of children and enforced the Renewable Heat Incentive. prostitution. The most effective way to ensure the safety of women Climate Change: EU Action and children displaced by the conflict is to restore freedom of movement to the IDP population. I visited Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for Sri Lanka in early October and urged Government Energy and Climate Change what his policy is on the representatives to allow freedom of movement and establishment of a European Commission Directorate abide by their own commitment to return 80 per cent. of General for energy and climate change; and if he will the IDPs to their homes by the end of the year. On my make a statement. [297502] return, I discussed these issues with the deputy high commissioner to Sri Lanka in London. I welcome the Joan Ruddock [holding answer 3 November 2009]: recent progress made by the Government of Sri Lanka The formation of DECC last year emphasised the in returning the IDPs currently held in camps to their Government’s belief that energy and climate change areas of origin. policies are inextricably linked. This applies equally at Since September 2008, the Department for International an EU level where it is vital that these policy areas are Development (DFID) has allocated £12.5 million of taken forward together and that, in particular, all necessary humanitarian aid to assist those displaced by the conflict links are made between policy makers in the European 1015W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1016W

Commission in order to deliver shared objectives. This Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation is more important than the organisational structure of directorates general per se. Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Departmental Recruitment and Climate Change what recent assessment he has made of the interaction between the Renewables Obligation Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for and the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation. [297668] Energy and Climate Change how many posts in his Department which were initially advertised six months Joan Ruddock [holding answer 3 November 2009]: As or more ago are still (a) vacant and (b) unconfirmed. part of their work to implement the renewable energy [294496] directive, officials from DECC are working with officials from the Department for Transport to ensure that the Joan Ruddock [holding answer 20 October 2009]: renewables obligation and the renewable transport fuel The information on posts advertised six or more months obligation—as well as the feed-in tariffs and renewable ago is not held centrally and could be obtained only at heat incentive to be introduced in 2010 and 2011 disproportionate cost. respectively—provide a coherent financial incentive framework for the use of biomass-based technologies in Energy: Companies delivering our renewable energy targets.

Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Energy and Climate Change what representations he and Climate Change what recent discussions he has has received from (a) Landis and Gyr Group, (b) had with the Secretary of State for Transport on the African Minerals (UK) Ltd., (c) Eastern Petroleum Government’s cross-departmental approach to the Corporation Ltd., (d) Gulf Keystone Petroleum (UK) promotion of the use of renewable energy in transport. Ltd., (e) Torftech Ltd. and (f) VAL Energy since [297669] 1 April 2008. [296798]

Joan Ruddock: Since the creation of DECC officials Joan Ruddock [holding answer 3 November 2009]: in the Department have met representatives from Landis My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has regular and Gyr to discuss smart metering and demand side meetings with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of response. There have been bilateral meetings and the State for Transport on a wide variety of issues, through company has been represented, with other stakeholders, the normal course of Government business. In addition, at presentations and workshops supporting smart meter since the publication of the Renewable Energy Strategy, policy and demand side response development. and the creation of the Office for Renewable Energy Deployment within DECC, our officials meet frequently We have no records in DECC of any contact with to discuss the delivery of the renewable energy directive. African Minerals Ltd., Eastern Petroleum Corporation Cross Government working groups are in place for the Ltd., Gulf Keystone Petroleum Ltd., Torftech Ltd. or delivery of the renewable energy directive, for biofuels VAL Energy. policy and for biofuels research. Renewable Energy

Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when he plans to lay before Parliament JUSTICE for approval a draft of the proposed Renewables Obligation Order 2010. [297453] Coroner Service

Joan Ruddock: Amendments to the Renewables Obligation Order 2009 will be laid before Parliament for Robert Key: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice approval by February 2010. if he will make provision for extra staff to be assigned to the office of HM Coroner for Wiltshire to process Renewable Energy: EC Law the outstanding inquests into the deaths of service personnel overseas. [297218] Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment his Department Bridget Prentice: Operational matters such as the has made of the implications of the implementation of provision of staff and other resources are matters for the EU Renewable Energy Directive for the operation local agreement between coroners and their local authorities. of the renewables obligation in the UK; and if he will However, an exceptional burden has been created in the make a statement. [297454] Wiltshire and Swindon coroner’s district by the repatriation to RAF Lyneham since 1 April 2007 of service personnel Joan Ruddock: DECC officials are currently scoping who have, sadly, lost their lives in the military operations the implications of the Renewable Energy Directive in Iraq and Afghanistan. In recognition of this, central across all areas. The directive includes sustainability funding is being provided by the Ministry of Justice and criteria for biofuels and bioliquids, and also sets a the Ministry of Defence. In 2007-08 £126,000 was provided requirement on the European Commission to report on centrally, and in 2008-09 a further £190,000 was provided. the need for sustainability criteria for solid biomass Estimated spend by the two Departments in the current used for electricity and heat generation by the end of financial year is £200,000. A recent request from Wiltshire the year. At this point officials can begin the work to county council for additional funding this year is currently ensure that the Renewables Obligation is compliant. being considered. 1017W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1018W

Mentally Disturbed Offenders Claire Ward: The projects and costs of personality disorder research attributable to the Ministry of Justice and previously the Home Office are set out in the Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice following tables. how much his Department and its predecessor has A web reference is included where research reports spent on each research project relating to personality have been published and are readily available. disorder amongst offenders in each year since 1999; and what publications resulted from research (a) Further information on DSPD research projects and commissioned and (b) funded by his Department. publications is available at: [296529] www.dspdprogramme.gov.uk

Personality disorder related research projects 2000-09 £ Project title 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07

Literature Review of Treatments for 15,00046,000————— Personality Disorder Evaluation Of The DSPD Assessment 67,000 100,000 236,000 135,000 34,000 134,000 31,000 Process Evaluation (IMPALOX) Fitting The Right People For The Job — 55,000 27,000 27,000 — — — Landscaped - Random Controlled — 24,000 35,000 37,000 — — — Trials For Personality Disordered Patients DSPD Lifer Study: Release, — 22,000 22,000 11,000 — — — Resettlement & Recall Prisoner Cohort Study — 251,000 61,000 630,000 253,000 88,000 101,000 Random Controlled Trials Feasibility —14,0004,000———— Study For Dialectical Behavioural Therapy DSPD Lifer Study: DLP Study — — 90,000 22,000 — — — The Provision Of The Functional Link — — 18,000 36,000 18,000 — — Between Risk & Personality Disorder Assessment Of DSPD In Learning — — 22,000 90,000 — — — Difficulties Population Links Between Juvenile Sexual — — 13,000 42,000 38,000 35,000 — Offending & DSPD - Young Abusers Project (YAP) Developmental Pathways Of — — — 30,000 24,000 18,000 — Psychopathic Tendencies In Children A Longitudinal Study of Clinical, — — — 37,000 27,000 10,000 — Genetic & Environmental Risk Factors for Juvenile Anti-Social Personality Disorder in a High Risk Group Pilot Case Control Study of an — — — 24,000 24,000 24,000 — Intensive Multi Modal Cognitive Behavioural Programme for Adolescent Offenders in Secure Care Measuring Changes in Psychopathic — — — 22,000 55,000 88,000 55,000 Characteristics A Pilot Study of A New Intervention — — — 7,000 14,000 14,000 12,000 forHardtoTreatChildrenwith Conduct Disorder Evaluation of A Cognitive Behavioural ————90,00057,00054,000 Therapy in the Personality Disorder Service at Ashworth Hospital Inclusion for DSPD: Evaluating —————163,000 343,000 Assessment & Treatment (IDEA) CRACMSEvaluation —————25,000— Costs and Outcomes of DSPD Services ——————35,000 (CODES) O&MStudy-MEMOS ——————30,000 Neurobiological Aetiology of Violence ——————12,000 Feasibility of using neural networks in ——————— risk assessment Total 82,000 512,000 528,000 1,150,000 577,000 656,000 673,000

£ Project title 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Total Publication Link

Literature Review of Treatments for — — — 61,000 published http://www.dspdprogramme.gov.uk/ Personality Disorder publications.html Evaluation of the DSPD Assessment 4,000 — — 741,000 published http://www.dspdprogramme.gov.uk/ Process Evaluation (IMPALOX) publications.html 1019W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1020W

£ Project title 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Total Publication Link

Fitting The Right People For The Job — — — 109,000 published http://www.dspdprogramme.gov.uk/ publications.html Landscaped - Random Controlled Trials — — — 96,000 published http://www.nfmhp.org.uk/ For Personality Disordered Patients DSPD Lifer Study: Release, Resettlement — — — 55,000 results fed into & Recall publications in The British Journal of Psychiatry, May 2007, Vol.190 Prisoner Cohort Study — — — 1,384,000 published http://www.dspdprogramme.gov.uk/ publications.html Random Controlled Trials Feasibility — — — 18,000 published http://www.dspdprogramme.gov.uk/ Study For Dialectical Behavioural publications.html Therapy DSPD Lifer Study: DLP Study — — — 112,000 published http://www.dspdprogramme.gov.uk/ publications.html The Provision Of The Functional Link — — — 72,000 results fed into Between Risk & Personality Disorder publications in The British Journal of Psychiatry, May 2007, Vol.190 Assessment Of DSPD In Learning — — — 112,000 published numerous publications resulting from this Difficulties Population work http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/psychology/staff/ 2067.asp Links Between Juvenile Sexual Offending — — — 128,000 published http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/ & DSPD - Young Abusers Project (YAP) Publicationsandstatistics/ Publications/ PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/ DH_4140126 Developmental Pathways Of — — — 72,000 published numerous published articles, including one Psychopathic Tendencies In Children by Essi Viding, Paul J. Frick and Robert Plomin in Supplement 49 (May 2007, Vol.190) of the British Journal of Psychiatry. A Longitudinal Study of Clinical, — — — 74,000 published http://www.nfmhp.org.uk/ Genetic & Environmental Risk Factors for Juvenile Anti-Social Personality Disorder in a High Risk Group Pilot Case Control Study of an Intensive — — — 72,000 published http://www.nfmhp.org.uk/ Multi Modal Cognitive Behavioural Programme for Adolescent Offenders in Secure Care Measuring Changes in Psychopathic — — — 220,000 results fed into Characteristics publications in The British Journal of Psychiatry, May 2007, Vol.190, Supplement 49 A Pilot Study of A New Intervention for — — — 47,000 published http://www.nfmhp.org.uk/ Hard to Treat Children with Conduct Disorder Evaluation of A Cognitive Behavioural 54,000 64,000 — 319,000 publication Therapy in the Personality Disorder expected 2010 Service at Ashworth Hospital Inclusion for DSPD: Evaluating 343,000 252,000 237,000 1,338,000 project ongoing Assessment & Treatment (IDEA) CRACMS Evaluation — — 38,000 63,000 project ongoing Costs and Outcomes of DSPD Services 2,000 — — 37,000 project ongoing (CODES) O&MStudy-MEMOS 120,000 140,000 40,000 330,000 project ongoing Neurobiological Aetiology of Violence 50,000 50,000 37,000 149,000 publication expected 2010 Feasibility of using neural networks in — 38,000 38,000 76,000 publication risk assessment expected 2010 Total 573,000 544,000 390,000 5,685,000 Notes: 1. The figures shown are based on administrative data. Although care has been taken in compiling the figures a degree of inaccuracy is inherent in all administrative recording systems. 2. There is no information available for 1999-2000. 3. It was not possible to check all publications in the time available. Some research projects have resulted in a considerable number of related publications in academic journals. 4. In some cases projects were co-funded with other departments. The data presented reflects only Ministry of Justice (or previously Home Office) costs. 5. All figures are rounded to the nearest thousand. 1021W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1022W

National Archives National Archives: Pay

Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many appointments to posts at the National what assessment he has made of the effect of recent Archives were made at a starting salary above the staff re-organisations at junior levels at the National advertised (a) minimum and (b) maximum for the Archives on the services the Archives provide to the posts in each of the last three years. [297519] public; and if he will make a statement. [297552] Mr. Wills: Since February 2008, the National Archives, Mr. Wills: The National Archives has recently out of 245 appointments, has appointed 20 staff at a implemented a package of measures to make the savings starting salary above the advertised minimum and five required to ensure that they can live within their budget. above the advertised maximum salary bands. The National In order to make these savings, the number of posts in Archives only retains data relating to appointments for the organisation has been reduced by 10 per cent., with 18 months. half of these savings made through freezing vacancies, and the rest through restructuring to reduce the levels Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of management and administrative posts. This how much the National Archives spent on staff salaries re-organisation has enabled the National Archives to in each of the last three years. [297522] make savings in back office functions and avoid reducing the quality of its services to the public, as seen in the Mr. Wills: Cost of staff salaries for each of the last continued 90 per cent. public satisfaction rates for its three years is as follows: onsite services over the last two quarters. The National Archives has also increased by one the number of £ specialist posts providing expert support to researchers. There have been no compulsory redundancies, and the 2006-07 20,769,000 savings have been applied at senior as well as junior 2007-08 23,769,000 levels. I continue to receive regular reports from the 2008-09 26,537,000 National Archives regarding the provision of all its public services. Based on this, I am assured the restructuring These figures are cash amounts for each year, and will enable the National Archives to continue to meet its include contractors and agency staff employed on externally running costs and maintain the quality of its services. funded projects, as well as cover for permanent staff. The figures for 2006-07 include costs for the Office of Public Sector Information (OPSI) for the second half of Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the financial year. OPSI staff joined the National Archives’ what the cost to the public purse was of the recent payroll on 1 November 2006. refurbishment of reading rooms at the National Archives; and what proportion of the cost was met The figures for 2007-08 include OPSI for the full year, from (a) Exchequer and (b) grant funding. [297553] and staff from the Statute Law Database (SLD) who joined the National Archives on 12 December 2008. The figures for 2008-09 include OPSI, SLD and Mr. Wills: The National Archives’ public reading externally funded project staff for Digital Continuity rooms were refurbished in 2008 in part to accommodate and the Civil Pages project. the services previously offered at the Family Records Centre, the relocation of which brought all services together under one roof and saved the National Archives Offences Against Children: Prosecutions over £1 million per year in the rent of a separate building. The cost of the refurbishment was £2.5 million, Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for all of which was met from the Exchequer. The National Justice pursuant to the answer of 25 May 2009, Official Archives did not receive any additional funding for this Report, column 1145W, on offences against children: project from the Exchequer above their existing budget. convictions, how many people were prosecuted for sexual offences against persons under the age of 18 years in 2008; and how many such prosecutions Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice resulted in a conviction. [295713] what comprehensive (a) race equality and (b) gender equality assessments were undertaken as part of the Claire Ward: Data for 2008 are planned for publication most recent restructuring exercise at the National at the end of January 2010. Archives. [297574] The Ministry of Justice had pre-announced, in line with the Code of Practice for Official Statistics, that the Mr. Wills: Management at the National Archives following publications would be released in November produced a comprehensive equality impact assessment 2009: and staffing profile in preparation for the public and Criminal statistics 2008 trade union consultation launched on 29 June 2009. Sentencing statistics 2008 (annual publication) This contained information on part-time workers, gender, disability and ethnic origin and was shared with the Women and the criminal justice system trade unions. The National Archives continues to update Since announcing these dates, data quality issues the trade unions with monthly meetings, and continues were encountered. To allow sufficient time to resolve to provide openly the information it collects. these issues all three publications were delayed until 1023W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1024W

January 2010. An update on the delay of these statistical 2006 2007 2008 publications was released on the Ministry of Justice website on 9 October: All licences 400,238 441,167 439,294 http://www.justice.gov.uk/latest-updates/ Special Purpose 10,396 11,127 12,862 announcement081009a.htm Carer 940 1,603 1,999 Deaths 304 289 305 Family needs 467 409 337 Office of the Public Guardian Legal 641 581 608 Medical 8,044 8,245 9,613 Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what plans he has to move the premises of the Resettlement 385,532 422,813 414,512 Office of the Public Guardian from Archway Tower; Day Release and if he will make a statement. [297157] Accommodation 217 282 241 Family ties 18,146 21,666 22,350 Bridget Prentice: As part of its programme of change Religious 2,718 2,567 3,443 and improvement, the Office of the Public Guardian Service (OPG) has over the past 12 months taken a phased Training and 59,251 63,953 59,540 approach to moving functions out of London. In doing education so it has sought to capitalise on existing Ministry of Working out 250,971 278,406 272,338 Justice buildings and staff where possible. Other 54,229 55,939 56,600 resettlement The first office outside London opened in Birmingham in the spring of this year. A second office, in Nottingham, has recently commenced operation and functions will Childcare 497 313 320 continue to migrate there over the next four months. Resettlement Resettlement 3,813 6,914 11,599 No further decisions as to timing and location of Overnight future moves have been taken. OPG aims to have reduced Release its presence in London to a necessary minimum over Note: the next two to three years. The total for 2008 includes one uncategorised ROTL The OPG engages actively with staff and trade unions The number of licences for under 18’s released on regarding its change plans. Appropriate impact assessments ROTL from prison, which is a subset of the totals from are made. Staff impact is managed in line with the the table, in 2006 was 1,180, in 2007 was 805 and in 2008 Ministry of Justice Managing Organisational Change was l,499. Framework. The number of releases on HDC, one form of early release, are shown in the following table. Prisoners Release Number released on HDC

Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2006 13,666 (1) how many people were released on (a) temporary 2007 11,428 release licence, (b) home detention curfew, (c) early 2008 11,721 release and (d) juvenile temporary release in each of the last three years; [296766] Figures on the number of releases on End of Custody (2) how many people were released from prison on Licence (ECL), another form of early release, are published (a) resettlement day release, (b) resettlement overnight monthly on the MoJ website: release, (c) placements with community service http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ volunteers, (d) placements with the Prince’s Trust, (e) endofcustodylicence.htm childcare resettlement leave, (f) special purpose licence, ECL was introduced on the 29 of June 2007. Between (g) compassionate and (h) marriage of the offender in the start of the scheme and 31 December 2007, 16,197 2008. [296769] prisoners were released on ECL. In 2008, 31,318 prisoners were released. Between 1 January and 30 September Maria Eagle: Figures on the number of releases from 2009, 22,362 prisoners were released on ECL. prison establishments on temporary licence (ROTL) and Home Detention Curfew (HDC) are published All these figures have been drawn from administrative annually in Offender Management Caseload Statistics. IT systems which, as with any large scale recording Copies are in the House of Commons Libraries and on system, are subject to possible errors with data entry the MoJ website: and processing. http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ prisonandprobation.htm Secure Accommodation: Young Offender Institutions Data on the categories of ROTL are not recorded precisely in the form specified in the question. Prisoners may be released on temporary licence on more than one Dr. Vis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what occasion. The statistics relate to the number of licences the average cost of placing remanded children in secure granted rather than the number of prisoners released. training centres was in the most recent period for which The recorded categories are shown in the following figures are available; and what proportion of that cost table. was met by the Youth Justice Board. [296964] 1025W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1026W

Maria Eagle: The Youth Justice Board calculates Average annual cost per place annual figures for the cost of places in the under-18 (£000) secure estate. As at 1 April 2009, the average cost of placing a young person remanded to custody in a secure Secure children’s home 215 training centre was £209,000 per annum (excluding Secure training centre 160 VAT). The Youth Justice Board contributes two thirds Young offender institution 60 of the cost and the young person’s home local authority Note: contributes the remaining third plus an administrative These figures are the average costs per place and include places for fee. both remanded and sentenced young people. VAT is not included within these figures. The average cost of placing a remanded young person in a secure training centre is higher than for sentenced young people due to a differential in the economic cost Young Offenders of delivering the two regimes. The additional cost also reflects the fact that remanded young people have to be David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for accommodated separately from sentenced trainees. Justice how many 10 to 12 year-olds were convicted of each category of criminal offence in England and Dr. Vis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how Wales in each year since 1997. [296961] much the Youth Justice Board pays per person for a place in (a) a secure training centre, (b) a young offenders institution and (c) a local authority secure Claire Ward: Information showing the number of 10 children’s home. [296967] to 12-year-olds found guilty at all courts in England and Wales from 1997 to 2007 (latest available), broken Maria Eagle: The Youth Justice Board calculates down by offence type, can be viewed in the following annual figures for the cost of places in the three types of table. establishment in the under-18 secure estate. As at 1 Data for 2008 are planned for publication at the end April 2009, these were as follows: of January 2010.

Number of defendants aged 10 to 12 found guilty at all courts for all offences, broken down by offence type, England and Wales, 1997 to 20071, 2 Offence type 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Violence against the 73 96 114 130 151 177 174 160 168 156 142 person Sexual offences 16 11 20 10 21 27 10 22 23 20 26 Burglary 240 314 356 313 321 336 264 279 283 233 217 Robbery 68 64 78 78 129 113 118 134 89 97 141 Theft and handling 562 840 951 936 914 767 719 715 685 623 710 stolen goods Fraud and forgery 2 3 16 13 8 17 4 10 12 8 11 Criminal damage 101 137 218 202 231 234 218 212 230 192 226 Drug offences 2 6 12 12 33 26 32 31 29 23 22 Other indictable 39 47 70 79 72 79 77 68 65 67 59 offences Indictable motoring 31745643103 offences Summary offences 384 598 881 1,051 1,129 1,048 1,092 1,173 1,256 1,237 1,237 (excluding motoring) Summary motoring 36 52 61 47 72 56 74 67 54 62 63 offences All offences 1,526 2,169 2,784 2,875 3,086 2,886 2,786 2,874 2,895 2,718 2,857 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform.

Young People: Remand in Custody place young people into custody, including secure training centres, on behalf of the Secretary of State. The table Dr. Vis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how sets out the number of occasions on which young many children have been placed in each secure training people have been remanded to secure training centres centre by local authorities whilst on remand in each between September 2007 and August 2009. month in the last two years. [296965] The data have been provided by the Youth Justice Board and are drawn from administrative computer Maria Eagle: The decision as to whether to remand a systems. As with any large scale recording system, the young person under 18 to custody is entirely for the data are subject to possible errors with data entry and courts. The Youth Justice Board has the authority to processing and may be subject to change over time. 1027W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1028W

England Secure training centre A&E as a Hassockfield Medway Oakhill Rainsbrook A&E incidents All incidents percentage of all

September 171 72003 15 153 10 2007 2004 1,706 42,880 4 October 2007 3 4 2 5 2005 13,742 403,610 3 November 756 32006 20,499 659,035 3 2007 2007 27,834 834,764 3 December 852 6 2007 2008 31,236 906,401 3 1 January 2008 6 3 13 7 2009 32,017 867,675 4 February 457 14Total 127,049 3,714,518 3 2008 1 To mid October March 2008 8 4 0 8 Notes: Not all trusts were connected prior to January 2005. April 2008 3 5 0 4 Source: May 2008 5 4 7 2 Reporting and Learning System June 2008 4 3 3 7 July 2008 5 8 9 7 Airedale Hospital: Cancer August 2008 9 6 12 8 September 546 10Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State 2008 for Health (1) whether digital mammography equipment October 2008 7 5 16 9 is available on site at (a) Airedale Hospital and (b) November 441110Burnley General Hospital; [297017] 2008 (2) what services are provided at (a) Airedale December 437 3Hospital and (b) Burnley General Hospital for 2008 patients who develop lymphoedema. [297018] January 2009 6 6 18 8 February 33159Ann Keen: The information requested is not held 2009 centrally and can instead be obtained direct from the March 2009 7 2 11 12 Airedale NHS Trust and the East Lancashire Hospitals April 2009 7 2 9 9 NHS Trust. May 2009 11 7 9 10 June 2009 7 10 11 12 Blackburn Royal Infirmary: PFI July 2009 10 2 13 9 August 2008 9 2 14 4 Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much and what percentage of its income the East Lancashire Hospitals NHS Trust spent on servicing the Royal Blackburn Infirmary private finance HEALTH initiative project in 2008. [297084]

Abortion Mr. Mike O’Brien: East Lancashire Hospitals NHS Trust spent £13.57 million on the Royal Blackburn Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Infirmary private finance initiative project in financial how many legal abortions for women in each age group year 2008-09. This equates to 4.3 per cent, against were performed on each statutory ground in each year turnover for that year. since 1979; and what the age standardised rate of legal abortions performed on each statutory ground was in Cancer: Health Services each of those years. [295899] Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Gillian Merron: The information has been placed in (1) how much the NHS spent on children’s cancer care the Library. in (a) England, (b) the North East, (c) Tees Valley and (d) Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland Accident and Emergency Departments: Safety constituency in each year since 1997; [297193] (2) how much the NHS spent on cancer care in Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) England, (b) the North East, (c) Tees Valley and Health how many patient safety incidents in accident (d) Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland and emergency departments in England were reported constituency in each year since 1997. [297196] to the National Patient Safety Agency in each year since 1997. [297393] Ann Keen: Information is not collected in the requested format. Ann Keen: The number of patient safety incidents in 2003-04 was the first year programme budgeting data accident and emergency (A&E) departments in England were collected. Data on children’s cancer care are not that have been reported to the National Patient Safety available. Estimated cancer expenditure from 2003-04 Agency since the reporting system commenced in 2003 to 2007-08, for England and for primary care trusts is given in the following table. There was no central (PCTs) within the North East Strategic Health Authority reporting system in place prior to 2003. (SHA) is provided in the following tables. 1029W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1030W

Estimated England level spend on cancer and tumours 2003-04 to Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2007-08: Estimated gross England level expenditure on all cancer and what estimate his Department has made of the average tumours time elapsing from diagnosis to start of treatment for £000 cancer patients resident in (a) England, (b) the North East, (c) Tees Valley and (d) Middlesbrough South 2003-04 3,385,750 and East Cleveland constituency in each year since 2004-05 3,773,203 1997. [297205] 2005-06 4,302,656 Ann Keen: Statistics on average waiting times between 2006-07 4,352,462 diagnosis and first treatment for cancer are not collected 2007-08 4,964,282 centrally. The cancer waiting time standard of a maximum wait of 31 days from diagnosis of cancer to first cancer North East SHA expenditure on cancer and tumours and expenditure treatment was introduced for all patients from December on cancer and tumours for PCTs within North East SHA 2003-04 to 2005. Statistics showing overall performance are published 2007-08 on a quarterly basis on the Department’s website. £000 Expenditure on all cancer and tumours on own The following table shows performance against this population standard for quarter 1 of 2009-10 (April-June 2009) for 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 healthcare providers in the North East Strategic Health Authority area. County 32,591 38,635 43,825 50,578 44,017 Performance of healthcare providers in NHS North Durham PCT East area against the cancer waiting times standard of a Darlington 6,959 6,580 7,433 8,299 8,539 maximum of 31 days from diagnosis of cancer to first PCT cancer treatment for quarter 1 of 2009-10. Gateshead 12,354 18,250 22,688 22,045 18,185 PCT Percentage of patients receiving Hartlepool 6,617 5,852 7,845 8,824 9,623 first cancer treatment within PCT Healthcare provider 31 days of cancer diagnosis Middlesbrough 14,378 13,391 11,904 13,450 16,402 South Tyneside NHS Foundation 100 PCT Trust Newcastle 20,449 27,069 27,950 23,427 25,658 City Hospitals Sunderland NHS 98.7 PCT Foundation Trust North 12,806 15,444 17,085 15,103 16,187 Gateshead Health NHS Foundation 99.2 Tyneside Trust PCT The Newcastle upon Tyne Hospitals 98.2 Northumberland 19,532 28,247 25,364 22,637 24,059 NHS Foundation Trust Care Trust Northumbria Healthcare NHS 99.7 Redcar and 11,086 11,066 12,189 10,173 14,132 Foundation Trust Cleveland South Tees Hospitals NHS Trust 98.6 PCT North Tees and Hartlepool NHS 98.8 South 9,930 12,755 20,133 17,523 16,949 Foundation Trust Tyneside PCT County Durham and Darlington 99.5 NHS Foundation Trust Stockton-on- 8,818 11,048 13,043 13,276 16,278 Tees All providers in NHS North East 98.8 Teaching area PCT Source: Sunderland 14,918 19,730 20,000 23,126 27,665 Department of Health Cancer Waiting Times Statistics. Teaching For the same period, the reported performance for PCT England was 98.1 per cent.

North East 170,438 208,067 229,459 228,461 237,694 Dental Services SHA Notes: Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. The programme budgeting data collection is complex— Health pursuant to the answer of 20 October 2009, expenditure figures are therefore presented as ‘best estimates’. Official Report, column 1338W, on dental services, 2. Working with the national health service, we continue to refine and improve the data collection methodology. This, along with what information his Department holds on the criteria refinements to underlying data sources, makes like-for-like used by dental practices to determine appropriate comparisons between years difficult. clinical intervals. [296807] 3. Disease specific expenditure will not include expenditure on prevention, or general practitioner expenditure, but will include Ann Keen: Historically dentists have tended to recall prescribing expenditure. patients every six months. However guidance issued in 4. England level expenditure is estimated gross expenditure, and includes core Department of Health, SHA and some Special Health 2004 by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence Authority expenditure as well as PCTs. stated that dentists should have more flexible recall 5. SHA level expenditure is the combined expenditure of each PCT intervals, based on each patient’s clinical needs, and within the SHA area. PCT expenditure is estimated expenditure on that orally healthy adults might not need a check-up PCTs own population. more than once every two years. Recalling healthy Sources: Department of Health Resource Accounts patients at shorter intervals than is clinically needed PCT Financial Programme Budgeting Returns. Data for 2004-05 to does not benefit these patients, and potentially blocks 2007-08 are Published on the Department of Health website. access to the national health service for others. 1031W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1032W

Departmental Fraud Ann Keen: The information requested is a matter for East Kent Hospitals University NHS Foundation Trust. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health We have written to Mr. Nicholas Wells, chair of East how many employees of his Department have been Kent Hospitals University NHS Foundation Trust, convicted of an offence of fraud in each of the last informing him of the hon. Member’s inquiries. He will 10 years. [297040] reply shortly and a copy of the letter will be placed in the Library. Phil Hope: Since 2006 no individual has been convicted Genetically Modified Organisms: Food of fraud while working for the Department. Prior to 2006 records were not held centrally and it Alan Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for would incur disproportionate costs to search individual Health (1) what scientific papers he has considered in records. respect of animal studies that document the effect of the consumption of genetically modified food on changes Departmental Homeworking in the kidney, pancreas and spleen; [297101] (2) what recent international research he has evaluated David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for on the effect on the consumption of genetically modified Health how many staff of his Department have been food on human health, with particular reference to the authorised to work from home in the last 12 months. effects on (a) fertility, (b) immune dysregulation, (c) [297738] accelerated ageing, (d) gene disruption relating to cholesterol synthesis, (e) cell signalling, (f) protein Phil Hope: The Department operates a homeworking formation (g) insulin regulation and (h) changes in the scheme under which a person’s home is formally designated liver, kidney, spleen and gastrointestinal system. [297102] as their regular place of work for some or all of the working week. Arrangements to work from home are Gillian Merron: The Food Standards Agency has made by local managers. Records are not kept centrally sought advice from the Advisory Committee on Novel about this. Food and Processes (ACNFP) regarding what conclusions may be drawn from the following publications: Homeworking is one of a number of arrangements that the Department provides to promote flexible working, Malatesta et al., (2008), Histochem Cell Biol, 130, pp967-977 including part-time working, flexitime schemes, job sharing, Kilic and Akay, (2008), Food and Chemical Toxicology, 46, part year appointments, unpaid leave, and compressing pp1164-1170 the working week into less than five days. The use of Finamore et al., (2008), J Agric Food Chem. DOI: 10.1021/ information technology also allows many staff to work jf802059w from home on an occasional basis. Lelimirov et al., (2008), Forschungsberichte der Sektion IV, Band 3/2008, published by the Austrian Ministry of Health. Departmental Internet The ACNFP considered these publications at its meetings in November 2008 and February 2009, and advised that it was not possible to draw any conclusions about cause Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for and effect in these publications or to assess the significance Health whether his Department operates any Twitter of these reports for human health. The minutes of these accounts. [297720] meetings are available on the ACNFP website at: www.acnfp.gov.uk/meetings/acnfpmeet08/acnfpmeet20nov08/ Phil Hope: The Department owns five Twitter accounts: acnfpmin20nov08 @dhgovuk and @NHSChoices www.acnfp.gov.uk/meetings/acnfpmeet09/acnfpfeb09/ @careandsupport acnfpminl90209 @change4life Health Professions: Training @nhscommslink Two of these accounts are experimental and under Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for review: Health (1) what (a) funding for (i) fees and (ii) expenses @nhscommslink and and (b) other assistance his Department has provided @change4life. to each Royal College or Society for development of The remaining accounts are used for promoting e-learning for health services; and if he will make a information updates, or signposting sources of information statement; [296755] on government websites. (2) how much funding his Department plans to provide to each Royal College or Society in each of the East Kent Hospitals NHS Trust next three financial years for development of e-learning for health services. [296756]

Mr. Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) Ann Keen: The Department does not provide funding how many specialist neuromuscular physiotherapists to Royal Colleges or any society for the development of are available to patients within the area covered by the e-learning for health services. The Department’s e-Learning East Kent Hospitals Trust; [296724] for healthcare programme works in partnership with (2) what hydrotherapy facilities are available to the Royal Colleges and societies, as well as other patients within the area covered by the East Kent organisations, and they are eligible to have their expenses Hospitals Trust. [296725] covered by the Department. 1033W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1034W

Health Services: Lancashire Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will place in the Library a copy of his Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Department’s second phase of economic modelling for how many (a) doctors and (b) nurses were registered vascular checks which used a pharmacy setting as its as working in each primary care trust serving basis, as referred to on page 15 of his Department’s Lancashire and their predecessors in (i) 1997 and (ii) on document, Putting prevention first, Vascular Checks: the most recent date for which figures are available. risk assessment and management: next steps guidance [296834] for primary care trusts. [297371]

Ann Keen: The information is not available in the Ann Keen: The Impact Assessment for the NHS format requested. The following table shows the number Health Check programme incorporates the results of of doctors and qualified nursing staff working at the the Department’s second phase of economic modelling Central Lancashire Primary Care Trust (PCT), as at which took into account pharmacy as a setting for 30 September 2002 and 2008. delivering the risk assessment element of the check. A All doctors and qualified nursing staff at the Central Lancashire PCT, copy of the Impact Assessment has been placed in the as at 30 September each year Library. Numbers (headcount) 2002 2008 Hydrotherapy Pools All doctors1 282 327 All general practitioners (GP) 266 285 Hospital Community Health Services 16 42 Mr. Burrowes: To ask the Secretary of State for (HCHS) medical and dental staff Health how many hydrotherapy pools are available for treatment in each primary care trust in England. All qualified nursing staff 794 937 [297585] Qualified HCHS nursing staff 630 784 GP practice nurses 164 153 Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department does not collect 1 Excludes medical hospital practitioners and medical clinical assistants, data centrally on the number of hydrotherapy treatment most of whom are GPs working part-time in hospitals. pools available in each primary care trust in England. Note: Central Lancashire PCT was formed on 1 October 2006, following the merger of the Preston, Chorley and Ribble and West Lancashire PCTs. Mental Health Services: Young People Source: The Information Centre for health and social care. Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for Health: Screening Health how many bed days were recorded for patients aged under 16 years old on adult psychiatric wards in Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for each quarter of the last three years. [296893] Health (1) what steps his Department is taking to ensure consistency in relation to the choice of providers Phil Hope: The following table gives figures for the offered in respect of NHS health checks by primary number of bed days for children on child and adolescent care trusts; [297296] mental health (CAMHS) wards and for children aged (2) which primary care trusts are providing vascular under 16 and 16-17 on adult mental health wards. checks in community pharmacy settings to ensure that they are accessible when other services may not be Bed days- available, as referred to on page 18 of his Department’s under 18s Bed days- on under 16s Bed days- document, Putting prevention first, Vascular Checks: CAMHS on adult 16/17s on risk assessment and management: next steps guidance Quarter ward ward adult ward for primary care trusts; what assessment he has made of the accessibility of vascular checks in general 2006-07 1 34,609 75 4,697 practice settings to those in full-time employment; and 2 28,171 25 4,780 if he will make a statement. [297370] 3 34,430 38 4,679 4 39,409 53 4,511 Ann Keen: It is for primary care trusts to commission 2007-08 1 38,359 81 3,954 the necessary services, as they are best placed to understand the needs of their local population. Currently, no data 2 37,935 112 3,893 are collected centrally by the Department on which 3 41,184 49 4,255 settings primary care trusts (PCTs) are commissioning 4 40,072 133 4,926 NHS Health Checks to take place in or on the accessibility 2008-09 1 37,003 16 4,019 of NHS Health Checks in general practitioner practices. 2 36,973 4 3,713 The Pharmacy Services Negotiating Committee has 3 39,534 0 2,854 however recently undertaken a survey of Local Pharmaceutical Committees (LPCs). Approximately two 4 42,065 3 3,101 thirds of LPCs replied to the survey. The results showed Notes: that, of those primary care trusts that responded, 54 per 1. Data on this issue was first collected in 2005-06 but data up until Quarter 3 of 2005-06 is not comparable with the data for Quarter 4 cent. are either using or intending to use community 2005-06 onwards as information was collected on a different basis. pharmacy at this stage to help deliver their NHS Health 2. For 2008-09 onwards it is not mandatory for NHS foundation Check programmes. trusts to submit returns but they may do so on a voluntary basis. 1035W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1036W

NHS: Sick Leave Count of finished consultant episodes1 where the primary or secondary diagnosis was Causalgia (G56.4) by gender, 2004-05 to 2008-09, activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned Mr. Hands: To ask the Secretary of State for Health activity in the independent sector how many working days were lost through employee Financial year Male Female sickness in the National Health Service in each 2008-09 62 99 strategic health authority area in each of the last five 2007-08 38 87 years. [297104] 2006-07 26 72 2005-06 36 57 Ann Keen: After the 2005 report, the sickness absence 2004-05 40 70 survey was discontinued. Electronic copies of earlier 1 A finished consultant episode (FCE) is defined as a continuous records are not available. Results of the last two surveys period of admitted patient care under one consultant within one on sickness absence from 2004 and 2005 have been healthcare provider. FCEs are counted against the year in which they placed in the Library. end. It should be noted that the figures do not represent the number of different patients, as a person may have more than one episode of care within the same stay in hospital or in different stays in the same NHS: Training year. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health health and social care. whether his Department has commissioned a training Patients’ Rights programme for clinicians to enhance the quality of discussion with patients on treatments not routinely funded on the NHS, as recommended by his Department’s Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State National Cancer Director in his November 2008 report for Health if he will encourage the National Clinical on improving access to medicines for NHS patients. Audit and Patients’ Outcomes programme to conduct [297420] an audit of dignity for patients in hospital and other care settings. [296993]

Ann Keen: The Cancer Research UK Sussex Psychosocial Ann Keen: The National Clinical Audit Advisory Oncology Group has been commissioned to take forward Group, which advises the Department on the National the recommendation, by Professor Mike Richards (National Clinical Audit and Patient Outcomes programme Cancer Director), that the Department should commission (NCAPOP), has set out advice on the criteria to be used a training programme for clinicians to enhance the to prioritise topics for new national clinical audits. This quality of discussion with patients on treatments not is available from the Department’s website: routinely funded on the national health service. www.dh.gov.uk/ab/NCAAG/index.htm Nurses: Students The Healthcare Quality Improvement Partnership, which manages the contracts for the NCAPOP, has recently issued an invitation to tender for a one-year Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health development project designed to develop a methodology how many student nurses are working in Lancashire to underpin a future national audit of food and nutrition Primary Care Trust; and what the average number of in health and social care, an important aspect of dignity. student nurses working in a primary care trust was in the latest period for which figures are available. Prostate Cancer: Health Services [296754] Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Ann Keen: The information requested is not collected with reference to the answer of 13 May 2008, Official centrally. However, this information might be available Report, columns 1552-7W, on prostate cancer staff, direct from the primary care trusts that serve the Lancashire which cancer networks (a) have met and (b) are on area. target to meet the milestones set out in the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence’s guidance on improving outcomes. [297197] Pain Ann Keen: The majority of cancer networks have now Jeff Ennis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health fully implemented the National Institute for Health and how many (a) males and (b) females have been Clinical Excellence (NICE) guidance on Improving diagnosed with complex regional pain syndrome in Outcomes in Urological Cancer. each of the last five years. [297220] Four networks are yet to implement the guidance. These networks are: Mount Vernon Cancer Network; Ann Keen: The information requested on the number Greater Manchester and Cheshire Cancer Network; of males and females diagnosed with complex regional Surrey West Sussex and Hampshire Cancer Network pain syndrome in the national health service is not and Greater Midlands Cancer Network. collected. The NHS Information Centre collects data Mount Vernon Cancer Network is expected to implement on the number of patients admitted in England NHS the IOG by the end of 2009, Greater Manchester and Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in Cheshire Cancer Network by September 2010 and Surrey the independent sector with complex regional pain type West Sussex and Hampshire Cancer Network by March II (previously known as causalgia). The information is 2010. Greater Midlands Cancer Network is preparing in the following table. an action plan which is expected by the end of 2009. 1037W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1038W

Swine Flu: Vaccination INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what arrangements his Department has made CDC for informing GP surgeries of the dates upon which their allocation of swine influenza vaccine will be David Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for received; and if he will make a statement. [297111] International Development what financial arrangements were in place for the seeding of CDC Group plc’s Gillian Merron: In the letter of 15 October 2009 from sub-Saharan power assets in the new $750 million the Chief Medical Officer to all general practitioners infrastructure fund announced by his Department on (GPs), a copy of which has been placed in the Library, 6 October 2009; and whether a profit share was earned the arrangements for checking delivery dates of swine by the private equity company Actis for this transaction. flu vaccine were clearly identified. GPs were informed [297549] that they would be able to find out the expected day of delivery of their first supplies of swine flu vaccine by Mr. Douglas Alexander [holding answer 3 November checking with their primary care trust immunisation 2009]: On 6 October 2009, Actis announced a new £750 co-ordinator or by consulting the website themselves at: million infrastructure fund. CDC contributed a number of sub-Saharan African assets to this fund. The transfer www.immform.dh.gov.uk value of these assets was established by agreement between CDC and Actis, with independent valuation Tuberculosis: Health Services advice provided by PricewaterhouseCoopers. The specific information requested is subject to Julie Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for commercial confidentiality provisions in the various Health (1) what proportion of primary care trusts in legal agreements. England are part of a local multi-disciplinary clinical Carried interest or profit share will be payable to the network for tuberculosis; [297304] fund manager, pursuant to the contractual obligation (2) what steps the NHS takes to assign consultants between Actis and CDC. with appropriate experience to the care of patients with multi-drug resistant tuberculosis. [297305] Tanzania: Overseas Aid Gillian Merron: The organisation of local national health service services and ensuring appropriate experience Mr. Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for International of consultants treating multi-drug resistant tuberculosis Development how much humanitarian aid was provided (MDR-TB), and the organisation of local multi-disciplinary by the Government to Tanzania in each of the last five networks is a matter for local NHS management. years for which figures are available; on what projects In recognising that many TB clinicians will not have such aid was spent in each of those years; what process experienced treating an MDR case, the Department is used to monitor expenditure on such projects; and funded the British Thoracic Society (BTS) initially to what evaluation has been made of the outcomes of that form a national advice network to offer advice and expenditure. [296726] share good practice on treating MDR cases. We also recommend in the TB Toolkit for commissioners and Mr. Thomas: The total amount of bilateral programme service providers published in June 2007 that MDR-TB aid provided by the Department for International cases be discussed within this group and advice should Development (DFID) to Tanzania in the last five years be sought on a regular basis on continuing patient is as follows: management. £ million Advice is provided through a virtual community of TB experts, including chest physicians, infectious disease 2004-05 94.9 physicians, paediatricians, public health physicians, a 2005-06 109.3 specialist nurse and four directors of the health protection 2006-07 108.5 agency laboratories where drug sensitivity for tuberculosis 2007-08 120.0 is undertaken (Newcastle, Birmingham, Cardiff and 2008-09 127.7 London). In forming the advice network, The BTS extended Information about individual projects is available on the remit to include all aspects of TB, and not just the DFID website at: MDR-TB. The TB Toolkit also recommends that in low www.dfid.gov.uk/Where-we-work/Africa-Eastern--Southern/ incidence areas where fewer that 10 cases per year are Tanzania/ seen for case management to be discussed on a Projects and their outcomes are monitored on a multidisciplinary team basis. The BTS network is available regular basis by a designated lead adviser and programme to anyone that wishes to access it. manager. In addition, an annual review process assesses The all party parliamentary group on Global TB the performance of the project against a five-point scale published the results of two surveys of TB nursing staff and will lead to action where necessary to ensure that and TB consultants in July 2009. They found that 68 the project continues to meet its overall objectives. All per cent. of the respondents from TB consultants indicate projects are also subject to a completion report which that the acute trusts they work for is part of a TB provides a formal evaluation of the project and its network. impact. 1039W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1040W

Tanzania: Politics and Government Local Government Reorganisation

Mr. Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for International 13. Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Development what recent assessment his Department Northern Ireland what progress has been made on has made of standards of governance in Tanzania. reorganisation of local government in Northern Ireland; [296727] and if he will make a statement. [296679]

Mr. Thomas: The Department for International 14. Mr. Hands: To ask the Secretary of State for Development office in Dar es Salaam has a team dedicated Northern Ireland what recent representations he has to assessing standards of governance in Tanzania and received on reorganising local government in Northern to supporting efforts to improve these. Each year donors Ireland; and if he will make a statement. [296680] and the Government of Tanzania undertake a formal assessment of governance as part of the review of Paul Goggins: I refer the hon. Gentlemen to the budget support. The last such review was conducted in answer I gave earlier to the hon. Member for Upminster November 2008. (Angela Watkinson). Christmas

Mr. Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern NORTHERN IRELAND Ireland how many Christmas functions arranged by his Department and its agencies (a) he, (b) officials of his Department and (c) officials of its executive agencies Devolution (i) hosted and (ii) attended in 2008; and if he will make a statement. [295447] 10. Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether there will be a residual Mr. Woodward: Northern Ireland Office (NIO) Ministers power for the Government to intervene in relation to a hosted and attended four Christmas receptions. decision by a Northern Ireland Justice Minister to These events were attended by over 1,500 cross- repatriate a foreign prisoner on medical or other community representatives from the criminal justice, grounds following the proposed devolution of policing, military, charity and voluntary sectors across responsibility for criminal justice and policing; and if Northern Ireland. The total cost was £37,534.53. he will make a statement. [296676] The Northern Ireland Office works in partnership with a range of organisations in the course of delivering Mr. Woodward: The repatriation of foreign prisoners the Department’s objectives on political development, will become the responsibility of the Northern Ireland policing and justice. This includes working with strategic Minister for Justice after the devolution of criminal partners within the policing and criminal justice field, justice and policing. Decisions on the grounds of national engagement with community groups and interests around security will, however, remain excepted. Northern Ireland, working closely with the Irish Government and engaging with key opinion formers abroad. The NIO also helps promote community cohesion Prisoner Release and celebrates successes in Northern Ireland by making Hillsborough Castle accessible to community groups, 11. Mr. Bailey: To ask the Secretary of State for charities, the armed forces, veterans, and others working Northern Ireland what recent steps he has taken to in the policing and justice fields. strengthen mechanisms for the supervision of offenders The Secretary of State did not attend in an official following their release from prisons in Northern capacity any Christmas functions arranged by the Ireland. [296677] Department’s external agencies.

Paul Goggins: Earlier this year, I announced the Firearms: Licensing introduction of electronic tagging, strengthening the capacity of the criminal justice system to manage offenders Mr. Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern in the community. This is working well and has improved Ireland how many Police Service of Northern Ireland the ability of the police and the probation service to staff administer the issue of firearms certificates. monitor those on bail or licence. [297582]

Paul Goggins: That is an operational matter for the Dissident Republicans Chief Constable. I have asked him to reply directly to the hon. Member and a copy of his letter will be placed 12. Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern in the Library of the House. Ireland what recent assessment he has made of the level of activity of dissident Republicans in Northern Ireland; Fireworks: Death and if he will make a statement. [296678] Mr. Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Mr. Woodward: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Ireland how many (a) deaths and (b) injuries have I gave earlier to the hon. Member for Rochford and been caused by fireworks in Northern Ireland in each Southend, East (James Duddridge). year since 2005. [297587] 1041W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1042W

Paul Goggins: Responsibility for collating these statistics In the meantime, the welfare of dogs in pet shops is now devolved and falls to the Department of Health, continue to be covered by the provisions of the Animal Social Security and Public Safety within the Northern Welfare Act 2006. Under section 9 of the 2006 Act, all Ireland Executive. owners and keepers must provide for the welfare needs of their animal (the “welfare offence”). Anyone failing Terrorism: Victims to do so could face a maximum penalty of £5,000, or six months’ imprisonment, or both. In addition, pet shops Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State have to be licensed by the local authority. for Northern Ireland what assistance his Department is providing to families in Northern Ireland who have yet to establish the location of the remains of relatives in Animal Welfare: Circuses order to allow for a proper burial. [297126] Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Goggins: The Independent Commission for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will bring Location of Victims’ Remains (ICLVR) was established forward proposals to ban the use of wild animals in in 1999 by treaty between the UK Government and the travelling circuses. [296870] Irish Government. The objective of the Commission is to facilitate the location of the remains of the victims of Jim Fitzpatrick: Wild animals used in travelling circuses violence, killed before 10 April 1998, as a result of acts are protected by The Animal Welfare Act 2006, which committed on behalf of an unlawful organisation which prevents unnecessary cruelty or suffering to any vertebrate has been proscribed under the Northern Ireland (Emergency animal. The Act makes owners and keepers responsible Provisions) Act 1996 in the UK or subject to a suppression for ensuring that the welfare needs of their animals are order under the Offences Against the State Act 1939 in met. This includes the need: for a suitable environment Ireland. These individuals are commonly known as (place to live); for a suitable diet; to exhibit normal ‘The Disappeared’. behaviour patterns; to be housed with, or apart from, The Commission uses a range of investigative techniques other animals (if applicable); and to be protected from in respect of information it receives about victims of pain, injury, suffering and disease. violence within its remit. They aim to exhaust all reasonable steps to locate the remains of these individuals in order A Feasibility Study is currently underway looking at to facilitate a proper burial of those remains. They also the possibility of regulating wild animal acts in travelling aim to provide families with as much information as circuses. The Feasibility Study is nearing completion they can about the fate of their loved ones. The Commission and we expect it to be finalised by the end of the year. shows tremendous dedication and commitment to their work, and their success in recovering the remains of Danny McIlhone in December 2008 is a testament to Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 their approach. I have met the families of the Disappeared on several Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for occasions and I am always willing to listen to their Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many concerns. In response to the views they raised initially people have been prosecuted under the provisions of with me the Northern Ireland Assembly has passed the the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 for importing a Presumption of Death Act (Northern Ireland) 2009, prohibited breed of dog in each of the last five years. enabling the families to gain some measure of closure [297277] by enabling the formal registration of the deaths of the Disappeared, and a confidential free telephone service Jim Fitzpatrick: As there is no offence of importing a for the ICLVR has been established. Some funding has prohibited type dog into this country contained in the also been provided to the WAVE Trauma Centre for Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, there have been no such their work with the families of the Disappeared. prosecutions over the last five years.

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS his Department provides to police forces on the implementation of the measures in section 1 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. [297279]

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA has made available to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will bring police a number of guidance notes about the Dangerous forward legislative proposals under the Animal Welfare Dogs Act, including section 1. Act 2006 to prohibit the sale of puppies in pet shops. [297283] Most recently, in April this year, DEFRA produced a document which explains the law on the prohibited type Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA has no proposals to prohibit dogs “Dangerous Dogs Law—Guidance for Enforcers”. the sale of dogs from pet shops. There are currently two This was produced in response to a consultation with independent inquiries underway looking into dog breeding. police forces about the law in this area. Both inquiries are expected to report in the next few In addition, DEFRA has made available, on its website, months. We do not want to pre-empt the recommendations all previous guidance notes produced by central of the inquiries by bringing forward legislation in this Government since the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 came area. into force. 1043W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1044W

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion were the principal offence for which they were dealt of dog owners proceeded against under the Dangerous with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or Dogs Act 1991 subsequently had their dogs placed on more offences the principal offence is the offence for the Index of Exempted Dogs in each of the last which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same five years. [297282] disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum Jim Fitzpatrick: It is not possible to provide clear penalty is the most severe. figures on the numbers of people who have had their dogs added to the Index of Exempted Dogs as a result Data for 2008 are planned for publication at the end of being prosecuted under section 1(3) of the Dangerous of January 2010. Dogs Act 1991. In addition to people who are prosecuted, there are those who have had their dogs added to the Departmental Data Protection Index by way of a non-prosecution avenue (section 4B of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991—as amended, 1997). Nick Herbert: To ask the Secretary of State for The following table shows the numbers of dogs added Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) to the Index of Exempted Dogs between 2003 and 2007, data tapes, (b) CDs, (c) memory sticks, (d) laptops inclusive. and (e) other equipment containing data of each type have been lost from (i) his Department and (ii) each of Number of Dogs Number his Department’s agencies in each of the last five years. processed by Certificates of certificate of index exemption issued exemption issued [297655] 2003 0 0 0 Hilary Benn [holding answer 3 November 2009]: Details 2004 6 6 0 of total losses or thefts from DEFRA and some of its 2005 1 1 0 agencies from 2005-06 onwards of mobile phones, 2006 6 6 0 blackberries (including PDAs) and laptops were provided 2007 185 141 44 in response to a question from the hon. Member from Putney (Justine Greening) 19 October 2009, Official Information showing the number of defendants Report, column 1212W.A further breakdown and complete proceeded against at magistrates’ courts and found guilty agency figures are not available centrally and could be at all courts for offences under section 1(3) of the 1991 collected only at disproportionate cost. Prior to 2008, Dangerous Dogs Act in England and Wales from 2003 losses of data tapes, CDs and memory sticks were not to 2007 (latest available) can be viewed in the table. recorded or collected centrally. Thereafter losses involving Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates’ courts and four guilty at personal protected information were recorded and details all courts under section 1(3) of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, England and were published in the 2008 departmental Annual Report: Wales 2003 to 20071, 2 Possession, without http://defraweb/corporate/about/how/deprep/index.htm exemption, of a Pit Bull and in the 2008-09 departmental Resource Accounts: Terrier, Japanese Tosa or Offence description other designated fighting dog http://defraweb/corporate/about/how/finance/resource- accounts/docs/resource-accounts2008-2009.pdf Section of the Act S.1(3) Dogs: Tagging 2003 Proceeded against 1 Found guilty 1 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his 2004 Proceeded against 5 Department has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated Found guilty 2 research on the merits of microchipping of dogs. [297285]

2005 Proceeded against 11 Found guilty 7 Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA has not commissioned any research or assessed research by others into the social benefits of microchipping of dogs. 2006 Proceeded against 8 Found guilty 5 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will 2007 Proceeded against 87 consider the merits of compulsory microchipping of Found guilty 62 dogs. [297286] 1 The number proceeded against and number found guilty statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were Jim Fitzpatrick: The Dog Identification Group (DIG) dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where recommended in its 2000 report that a voluntary scheme the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the for the permanent identification of dogs be introduced. offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. Since the DIG report, there has been an increase in 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted voluntary dog registration. At the forefront of this is from large administrative datasystems generated by police forces and the courts. Petlog, which is the largest pet reunification service in As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and the UK. It manages a database of over 3,500,000 records. their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: This is on hand 24 hours a day to authorised bodies Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform. such as animal wardens or animal welfare centres, who 1045W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1046W can scan the chips in found animals and trace their upgrading of flood defences in the West Midlands in owners via the Petlog database. Today up to 40-50 per the last five years. [297271] cent. of dogs are registered on the Petlog system. Huw Irranca-Davies: The Environment Agency’s We have no plans to make microchipping compulsory. Midlands Region has spent £114,260,000 to design and construct new defences and maintain existing ones in the West Midlands. The table shows the breakdown Floods: West Midlands between capital, revenue and local levy funding. This includes major capital schemes constructed at Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for Bewdley, Burton, Cannock, Cheltenham, Hereford, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much funding Kidderminster and North Littleton, with flood risk to the Government has allocated for the maintenance and 8,614 properties reduced as a result.

2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-101

Capital expenditure (new build/rebuild 12,610,000 7,764,000 3,538,000 8,014,000 12,239,000 Revenue expenditure (maintenance) 13,400,000 14,345,000 16,057,000 13,393,000 12,900,000 Total 26,010,000 22,109,000 19,595,000 21,407,000 25,139,000 Additional local levy (raised by Regional Flood 1,495,000 1,828,000 0,580,000 1,171,000 2,616,000 Defence Committee) 1 Based on current year forecasts.

Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions with Severn Trent Water and is inspecting Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what further the company’s records to establish how its sewage works steps the Government plans to take to prevent flooding were disrupted by the effluent it received. in the West Midlands. [297272] A suspension notice was served by the Environment Agency to prevent a company in Stoke-on-Trent discharging Huw Irranca-Davies: The Environment Agency has effluent to the sewer system. This notice will remain in identified projects to reduce the risk of flooding to force until the Environment Agency is satisfied that the 11,109 houses in the West Midlands between 2010 and risk of pollution has been removed. 2020. Investment will continue to improve flood modelling, mapping, forecasting and warning. The development Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for and testing of flood response plans will also continue in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many partnership with local authorities and emergency services. reported incidents of pollution in the (a) River Trent The following table shows the planned expenditure and (b) River Tame there have been in each of the last on flood risk management: three years. [297443] Major planned future expenditure (new defences) West Midlands Huw Irranca-Davies: The following table shows the Delivery Planned number of incidents of pollution reported to the period Location expenditure (£) Environment Agency over the last three years in the 2012-15 Barton, Staffordshire 1,000,000 locations specified. 2011-13 Sparkhill, Birmingham 1,500,000 2013-15 Shipston upon Stour 1,500,000 Number of incidents per year 2012 River Tame Birmingham 50,000,000 River Trent River Tame (onward) 2007 51 52 2012-15 Hob Nail Brook, West Bromwich 1,500,000 2008 58 35 2013-15 Castle Vale, Birmingham 2,400,000 2009 53 29 2015-18 Snitterfield (near Coventry) 1,500,000 Total 162 116 2013-15 Wolverhampton Culvert 2,000,000 2010-11 Upton on Severn 2,000,000 The majority of these incidents were classed as minor 2010-11 Horsbere Brook, Gloucester 1,500,000 and had a limited impact on the water environment. 2010-12 Badsey Brook, Worcester 1,000,000 Only 10 of these incidents had a major or significant 2012-15 Sandyford Brook, Stafford 4,500,000 impact; five on the River Trent and five on the River Tame. River Trent: Pollution Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for he has made of the adequacy of the specifications of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is the Severn Trust Water sewage treatment plants at (a) taking in respect of the discharge of cyanide into the Strongford, (b) Minworth, (c) Coleshill and (d) River Trent in October 2009; what discussions he has Tamworth. [297444] had with Severn Trent Water on the incident; and if he will make a statement. [297442] Huw Irranca-Davies: Discharges from sewage treatment plants to surface water are required to have prior Huw Irranca-Davies: The Environment Agency is authorisation under the requirements of the Water investigating the cause of the incident with a view to Resources Act (1991). Discharge consent is issued under prosecuting those responsible. It is having on-going Section 88 of the Act. 1047W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1048W

The setting of these conditions involves assessing the not warranted and that notifying people whose data needs of the receiving watercourse and calculating the might have been included in the two tapes would cause standards a sewage treatment works must achieve in unnecessary alarm and would be disproportionate. order to avoid causing damage to the environment. In Back-up tapes and administration most cases, these ‘river needs’ are prescribed by EC This incident relates to back-up tapes used in an IBM directives or national legislation. data centre to provide essential IT services for the Rural Emission limits are typically set for ammonia, Payments Agency. The proper administration of these biochemical oxygen demand, suspended solids and, where tapes enables the department to restore live services if necessary, can also include pesticides, metals and other there is an outage or disaster. substances deemed dangerous to the environment. It is Back-up tapes need to be carefully administered the role of the operator to design the appropriate type (i.e. recorded and labelled, logged whenever they are of treatment works to achieve the specified standards. replaced, re-used, deleted or transported). Part of this This applies to all the plants mentioned. Discharges administration is an annual audit to check that all tapes are regularly monitored to ensure that these standards are accounted for. are met. Narrative of events relating to unaccounted media Between 16 March 2009 and 7 May 2009, IBM Rural Payments Agency: Data Protection carried out routine annual reconciliations of back-up tapes at their data centres. It became clear that 38 tapes Nick Herbert: To ask the Secretary of State for and one CD could not be accounted for and they Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) on what date carried out an internal investigation and a thorough (a) he, (b) the Minister for Food, Farming and the search of the data centres to establish if these were lost Environment and (c) officials in his Department was or had been misplaced. 19 of the 39 media were found informed of the recent loss of confidential data from during this audit process. At this stage it was not clear the Rural Payments Agency; [297577] that protected personal data relating to RPA was on (2) who ordered the investigation into the recent loss any of the tapes unaccounted for but it was reasonable of confidential data from the Rural Payments Agency; to assume that this was possible. [297578] IBM notified DEFRA orally at a meeting on 23 July (3) what data is contained on the tapes recently lost 2009. Following further searches IBM informed DEFRA by the Rural Payments Agency; [297579] formally in writing on 28 August 2009 that 19 tapes and (4) on what date individuals whose personal data one CD remained unaccounted for although they had were contained on tapes lost by the Rural Payments reason to believe that they knew where 18 of the tapes were and would be following this up directly. Agency were informed of the loss; [297580] At the same time the RPA were carrying out internal (5) on what date the investigation into the recent loss assurance and became aware of the results of the media of confidential data from the Rural Payments Agency audits reported on 28 August 2009. (a) began and (b) concluded; [297654] On 3 September 2009, the risk was escalated to the (6) on what date the recent loss of confidential data DEFRA Deputy SIRO who immediately informed security from the Rural Payments Agency was discovered. branch and requested further investigation. Between [297674] 3 September and 21 September 2009, more tapes were accounted for (there had been double accounting errors Hilary Benn [holding answer 3 November 2009]: On and some media were awaiting destruction), leaving 29 October 2009, Official Report, column 437, I made a four media (three tapes and one CD) still unaccounted statement to the House of Commons regarding for. unaccounted for electronic storage media at the Rural Payments Agency (RPA). I gave a commitment to put It was ascertained that one tape and one CD did not in the Library of the House a copy of the internal hold protected personal data and the issue therefore investigation report that was carried out by RPA. This related only to the two tapes which were likely to text accompanies that report. contain protected personal data. Summary On 7 October 2009, a full assessment of the position was passed to both the DEFRA SIRO and the SIRO at The potential issue was identified in routine audits, RPA, who agreed on 9 October 2009 that the incident conducted by IBM in spring 2009 and subsequently by did not warrant formal reporting to the Cabinet Office RPA in September 2009, which were unable to account and Information Commissioner’s Office and that notifying for two back up tapes and it was subsequently established SPS claimants would be disproportionate and cause that these were likely to have contained some personal unnecessary concern. data. As is explained in more detail in the section on Data and responsibilities assessment of risk below, a detailed assessment was made of the circumstances of the case and the risks to Not all data held and processed by DEFRA its personal information. Although there was no documentary agencies are personal data as defined by the Data evidence that the tapes had been destroyed, there was Protection Act (1998). Much of the data processed by evidence that one was identified as defective and suitable he IT suppliers at DEFRA relate to day-to-day transactions for destruction and the balance of probability was that and are not connected to identifiable persons. both had been destroyed. It was also established that a Most organisations that hold personal data require a combination of several low probability events would Data Controller and a formal notification which sets have had to arise in order for the tapes and the information out what data is being held and for what purposes. In to be misused. On this basis the DEFRA senior information the case of the Rural Payments Agency the Data Controller risk owner (SIRO) decided that formal reporting was is DEFRA. 1049W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1050W

In addition, each government organisation has a The most likely explanation for the fact that the two Board level Senior Information Risk Owner who is tapes could not be accounted for is that they were found responsible for managing the risks associated with to be defective and were destroyed. Other tapes of the information assets (both personal and non-personal). same type were so destroyed and there is evidence that DEFRA’s SIRO is the Director General of Law and one of the tapes was reported as defective and recommended Corporate Services and the Rural Payments Agency’s for destruction and neither of the tapes not accounted SIRO is the Chief Information Officer. for appear to have been used on the system since 2007. DEFRA employs a number of companies to provide The tapes are not of a type that can be easily read: ICT (information and communications technology) services. the data is dumped across the set of back-up tapes Such companies are known as Data Processors (any in random strings and appears in ASCII code. action which relates to holding, using, manipulating or Specialist equipment and technical skills are needed to even just storing data is known as ’processing’ as defined reconstitute it. by the Data Protection Act). The Data Controller and Even when reconstituted the data would not mean Data Processors put in place all necessary measures to much. A name, address or banking details of a particular ensure that personal data is held in accordance with individual would not necessarily appear on the same data protection law and principles (of which security is backup tape or be linked together, six tapes are required part). The Data Processor in this case was IBM. to back up the system. Data Handling Review The risk of these tapes having been stolen for criminal The Data Handling Review (DHR) published in June purposes by someone with access to the system in the 2008 sets out the minimum measures for personal data data centre is low. For the data to be useful the entire handling which government departments are required bank of tapes would be needed (because the linked data to adhere to. A written ministerial statement and a copy may be spread across all the tapes) so a person with of the report can be found at: access to the tapes and with the knowledge to interpret http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/newsroom/statements/ the data would also know that the entire set of six tapes 080625_data_handling.aspx was needed to make sense of it. The IBM procedures for handling back-up tapes on The assessment concluded that a combination of behalf of RPA were designed to ensure that their several low probability events would have had to arise in movements were recorded and tracked accurately order for the tapes and the information to be misused. throughout their life cycle. There were also compliance On this basis the DEFRA SIRO decided that formal checks in place and as is described in the report of the reporting was not warranted and that notifying people RPA investigations into this incident, these checks revealed whose data might have been included in the two tapes evidence that these procedures were not followed by would cause unnecessary alarm and be disproportionate. IBM in some respects. IBM is now implementing changes Lessons learned in conjunction with DEFRA and RPA to strengthen The RPA instructed IBM to act upon lessons learned arrangements and improve compliance checking. on 11 October 2009. This included: restrictions on Protection of Personal Data physical access to data centres unless accompanied by Under the procedures introduced following the DHR, specified representatives; a further strengthening of tracking government Departments are required to identify and and logging procedures for all removable storage media consider reporting any potential breach or loss of personal at sites (including the transit between sites); introduction protected data to the Information Commissioner and of formal confirmatory reporting that any actions taken also consider informing the individuals concerned. These are fully catalogued and the audit history maintained. decisions are normally taken by the SIRO, who is the An external expert consultant, engaged by RPA, has board level executive with particular responsibility for also provided independent advice on these improvements. information risk. Departments are required to include The Secretary of State and Minister for Food and in their annual reports Farming were informed of these events on 28 October a summary of protected personal data related incidents formally 2009. reported to the Information Commissioner under the Data; At the time that the DEFRA SIRO decided that a summary of centrally recorded protected personal data related incidents not formally reported to the Information formal reporting was not warranted, a full review of Commissioner; and IBM removable media storage, handling and accounting a summary statement of actions to manage information risk. procedures was commissioned, covering arrangements across the DEFRA network. DEFRA will also be looking Assessment of risk posed by RPA media unaccounted for to strengthen arrangements for identifying and reporting The potential issue with unaccounted for RPA removable on incidents involving the potential loss of personal media was identified in routine audits conducted by information. IBM in spring 2009 and subsequently by RPA in September In accordance with normal practice the incident will 2009. In accordance with the Cabinet Office Guidance be reported in the RPA’s annual report for 2009-10. an assessment was made of the risks posed by the media not accounted for. This established that although three tapes and one CD were unaccounted for, only two tapes could have contained protected personal data. HOME DEPARTMENT These two tapes were part of an automatic contained Borders: Personal Records system in a secure data centre: tapes sit within a hopper and are automatically used to back it up in turn about Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the every eight weeks. They are not moved within the data Home Department what data other than that contained centre and if moved between sites (for example for on a passport is requested of carriers as part of the destruction) are transported in authorised vehicles. e-borders scheme. [296791] 1051W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1052W

Alan Johnson [holding answer 2 November 2009]: In Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is not addition to the data contained on a passport (travel collected centrally. From the recorded crime statistics document information), carriers are required to provide collected by the Home Office it is not possible to other passenger information (OPI) to e-Borders, but identify the age of the alleged offender. only to the extent that it is known to the carrier.

Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Crime: Norwich Home Department by what date he expects the e-borders scheme to be implemented in respect of each Chloe Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the mode of transport used to enter the UK. [296793] Home Department how many crimes were reported in (a) 1997, (b) 2007 and (c) 2008 in Norwich North Alan Johnson [holding answer 2 November 2009]: constituency and how many of them resulted in e-Borders implementation for aviation has already started convictions in each of those years. [296018] and maritime and rail will commence in 2010. Community Policing Mr. Alan Campbell: Information is not available in the form requested as it is not possible to track individual offences through to their outcome at court. Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much the Neighbourhood In addition, data specifically for the Norwich North Policing Fund was in each year since 2002-03; and what constituency is not collected centrally in either the proportion of funding from the Fund was allocated for police recorded crime data or the court proceedings police community support officers in each of those data collected by the Ministry of Justice. years. [296358] The available recorded crime data is for the Norwich Crime and Disorder Reduction Partnership area. There Mr. Hanson: Neighbourhood policing is central to were 17,890 offences recorded in 2007-08 and 16,176 in improving public confidence in the police dealing with 2008-09, a fall of 10 per cent. Data for 1997 is not crime and antisocial behaviour that matters locally. available. Since 2002 we have invested heavily to ensure that there is now a neighbourhood policing team in every neighbourhood, including in total more than 13,500 Demonstrations: Parliament Square officers and 16,000 PCSOs. We launched the Neighbourhood Policing Fund (NPF) during 2004-05 Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for the to incorporate a series of earlier PCSO funding rounds Home Department (1) what discussions he has had and significantly increase investment in PCSOs and the with (a) the House authorities and (b) the former wider aspects of neighbourhood policing. The table Speaker, Lord Martin in the last 12 months on shows the amount of funding allocated to neighbourhood legislation to restrict the extended use of amplified policing and the proportion allocated specifically for noise in Parliament Square; and if he will make a PCSOs. This table includes the funding streams prior to statement; [297129] the introduction of the NPF. (2) whether the provisions of the Constitutional Percentage allocated Reform and Governance Bill will enable restrictions to Total (£ million) for PCSOs be placed on (a) (i) the establishment and (ii) the continuation of existing permanent demonstrations in 1 2002-03 12 100 Parliament Square and (b) the use of amplified noise 1 2003-04 35 100 for long periods in the Square. [297130] 2004-05 148 100 2005-06 79 100 Mr. Hanson [holding answer 2 November 2009]: My 2006-07 222 297 predecessor my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling 2007-08 315 289 (Mr. Coaker) met the former Speaker, the noble Lord 2008-09 324 289 Martin, in May to discuss a number of issues concerning 1 Pre-NPF community support officer grant. Government proposals to repeal sections 132 to 138 of 2 Since 2006 we have allocated a proportion of the fund for discretionary the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act. Ministers spending within the authority’s neighbourhood policing budget. have discussed and will continue to discuss these proposals Funding is made available to police authorities, and it with the House authorities. I met the Serjeant at Arms is for each police authority and each police force to in October. allocate resources within the local force area. This funding provides a substantial proportion of each police authority’s The provisions in part 4 of the Constitutional Renewal salary costs of its allocated share of the 16,000 PCSOs. and Governance Bill repeal sections 132 to 138 of the The terms of the grant require that each authority Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 and employ at least that allocated number. provide the police with new powers to maintain access to Parliament. Crime: Children The police will be able to place conditions on demonstrations only to the extent that they are necessary Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for the in order to prevent a march or assembly from blocking Home Department how many crimes of each type have access to Parliament or, as currently under the Public been committed by children aged (a) under 10 and (b) Order Act, where they are necessary to prevent serious between 11 and 14 years old in the Milton Keynes area public disorder, serious disruption to the life of the in the last five years. [296138] community or serious damage to property. 1053W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1054W

Hakluyt Police Community Support Officers

Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what contacts his Department has Home Department what powers police community had with Hakluyt and Co. Ltd. since 1 January 2009. support officers have in relation to the use of speed [296747] detection devices. [293763]

Mr. Hanson: The Home Office cannot find any record Mr. Hanson [holding answer 22 October 2009]: No of any contact between the Home Office and Hakluyt legal powers are required in order to operate a speed and Co. Ltd. detection device. Police community support officers Illegal Immigrants (PCSO) may use them. However, police community support officers have no power to issue a fixed penalty Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the notice for a speeding offence. A police officer may issue Home Department how many illegal migrants have a fixed penalty notice for speeding on the basis of been found to be working in (a) the UK Border evidence obtained by a PCSO. Agency and (b) the Immigration and Passport Service in each of the last five years. [288551] Police: Pay

Alan Johnson: In 2006 a total of nine contract cleaners, Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the working in the then Immigration and Nationality Home Department what the (a) pay and (b) Department of the Home Office, were found not to pay-related cost of employment of a full-time police have valid leave to remain in the UK. Following that the officer was in the most recent period for which figures Home Office’s procedures for checking its own employees are available. [295387] were tightened and the Home Office worked with its contractors to ensure that they fulfilled their responsibilities Alan Johnson [holding answer 26 October 2009]: The for pre-employment checking of their employees. Since information is as follows: 2006 we know of only one other case (in 2008) where an (a) Pay scales for police officers in England and employee of a contractor had invalid leave to remain. Wales from 1 September 2009 are shown in the following Immigration: Pakistan and Abu Dhabi table. (b) Based on published information, the average cost Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the of employment (including salaries, National Insurance, Home Department from whom entry clearance officers pension costs and superannuation) of a police officer in in his Department’s visa hub in (a) Pakistan and (b) 2008-09 was £54,300 per full-time officer1, 2. Abu Dhabi received instructions not to carry out 1 Source: Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy telephone interviews with visa applicants; and in what (CIPFA) 2008-09 (Provisional Actual data). form such instructions were given. [294287] 2 Home Office Statistical Bulletin on Police Service Strength in England and Wales published in March 2009 - Police Numbers. Alan Johnson: No instruction has been issued to Pay scales for police officers in England and Wales from one entry clearance officers (ECOs) overseas, including those September 2009 working in Pakistan and Abu Dhabi, not to interview Rank Pay scale visa applicants. Constable £22,680-£35,610 Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Sergeant £35,610-£40,020 Home Department whether visa processing work Inspector £45,624-£49,488 carried out at his Department’s (a) Pakistan and (b) Inspector (London) £47,625-£51,504 Abu Dhabi visa hub has been transferred to other visa Chief inspector £50,502-£52,578 processing centres. [294288] Chief inspector (London) £52,515-£54,588 Superintendent £60,750-£70,779 Alan Johnson: Decision-making on visa applications Chief superintendent £72,543-£76,680 submitted in Pakistan has been transferred in stages Assistant chief constable1 £88,470-£103,218 since October 2008 from Islamabad to Abu Dhabi Deputy chief constable1 £106,167-£135,660 (non-settlement applications) and London (settlement 1 applications). No Pakistan work has been sent elsewhere. Chief constable £123,858-£176,943 Deputy commissioner £209,382 Party Conferences Commissioner £253,620 1 Including equivalent of London ranks. Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any of his Department’s Proceeds of Crime non-departmental public bodies sent representatives to attend one or more political party conferences in 2009. Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the [293474] Home Department how much each police authority recovered under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 in Mr. Hanson: In respect of Home Office non- each of the last five years. [296427] departmental public bodies, three representatives of the National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) attended Mr. Hanson: Information on the value of cash forfeiture fringe events at the Labour and Conservative political orders and confiscation orders obtained by police forces party conferences in 2009, as observers. under the Proceeds and Crime Act 2002, and earlier 1055W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1056W legislation, is set out in the following tables. The police Table 2: Cash forfeitures and confiscation orders obtained in 2005-06 can obtain forfeiture orders in the magistrates courts £ following the seizure of cash which they have reasonable Cash forfeitures Confiscation grounds for suspecting is the proceeds of crime or intended for use in crime. Confiscation orders are made Avon and Somerset 86,995.14 1,350,156.15 in the Crown court. The enforcement of confiscation Constabulary orders is essentially a matter for HM Courts Service. Bedfordshire Police 38,601.01 233,509.07 Cambridgeshire 54,387.50 156,358.05 Asset recovery performance by police forces in England and Wales, 2004-05 to Constabulary 2008-09 Cheshire Constabulary 281,051.72 547,246.12 Table 1: Cash forfeitures and confiscation orders obtained in 2004-05 City of London Police 106,017.22 1,449,427.09 £ Cleveland Police 54,234.38 841,995.09 Cash forfeitures Confiscation Cumbria Constabulary 268,574.24 99,449.45 Avon and Somerset 133,916.00 1,826,013.23 Derbyshire 40,217.66 292,430.68 Constabulary Constabulary Bedfordshire Police 23,321.00 131,660.96 Devon and Cornwall 16,959.09 863,560.06 Constabulary Cambridgeshire 21,344.51 2,674,079.90 Constabulary Dorset Police 150,692.54 840,085.68 Cheshire Constabulary 96,086.69 471,570.50 Durham Constabulary 5,660.00 1,014,246.20 City of London Police 193,166.34 2,016,420.02 Dyfed-Powys Police 0.00 459,733.62 Cleveland Police 82,587.14 149,554.28 Essex Police 128,225.42 523,381.11 Cumbria Constabulary 60,070.00 64,085.05 Gloucestershire 26,067.10 344,403.20 Constabulary Derbyshire 150,764.01 2,387,166.85 Constabulary Greater Manchester 493,262.31 4,701,229.78 Police Devon and Cornwall 0.00 1,182,881.95 Constabulary Gwent Police 21,750.50 468,493.95 Dorset Police 20,565.00 1,030,259.06 Hampshire 99,897.50 803,982.52 Constabulary Durham Constabulary 0.00 464,384.45 Hertfordshire 22,711.00 912,879.03 Dyfed-Powys Police 0.00 201,060.20 Constabulary Essex Police 72,535.00 289,268.57 Humberside Police 49,016.71 244,158.75 Gloucestershire 0.00 390,464.23 Kent Police 433,171.86 917,499.25 Constabulary Lancashire 130,002.88 4,332,663.09 Greater Manchester 231,487.95 3,191,826.08 Constabulary Police Leicestershire 5,490.00 1,103,613.18 Gwent Police 21,606.00 356,841.12 Constabulary Hampshire 80,394.45 368,306.41 Lincolnshire Police 27,860.00 1,420,303.50 Constabulary Merseyside Police 934,655.44 2,537,917.43 Hertfordshire 41,175.00 246,431.93 Constabulary Metropolitan Police 6,163,935.02 25,138,026.12 Service Humberside Police 0.00 330,636.13 Norfolk Constabulary 96,232.00 3,187,861.84 Kent Police 231,086.24 1,710,106.38 North Wales Police 292,940.84 738,071.51 Lancashire 109,496.31 3,540,660.63 Constabulary North Yorkshire Police 43,939.75 369,561.13 Leicestershire 94,283.42 860,600.35 Northamptonshire 156,181.41 592,367.98 Constabulary Police Lincolnshire Police 36,690.00 271,222.23 Northumbria Police 25,110.00 497,611.54 Merseyside Police 704,832.58 2,203,863.63 Nottinghamshire 76,857.11 401,539.69 Police Metropolitan Police 2,566,163.12 25,150,456.01 Service South Wales Police 116,159.53 5,052,519.78 Norfolk Constabulary 59,735.01 849,764.11 South Yorkshire Police 177,460.05 1,082,532.84 North Wales Police 34,410.45 75,347.67 Staffordshire Police 96,002.51 1,068,689.27 North Yorkshire Police 12,340.00 192,741.94 Suffolk Constabulary 27,824.14 638,467.96 Northamptonshire 20,909.60 1,042,506.87 Surrey Police 142,707.32 665,750.09 Police Sussex Police 135,894.49 2,146,331.65 Northumbria Police 0.00 887,223.88 Thames Valley Police 220,524.48 2,069,489.00 Nottinghamshire 95,905.09 1,244,616.67 Warwickshire Police 41,411.85 212,979.83 Police West Mercia 84,710.00 1,155,162.42 South Wales Police 203,507.00 196,124.51 Constabulary South Yorkshire Police 264,500.08 1,117,598.45 West Midlands Police 746,793.29 2,602,105.00 Staffordshire Police 19,430.00 240,975.82 West Yorkshire Police 138,336.26 4,225,933.68 Suffolk Constabulary 45,980.00 320,374.31 Wiltshire Constabulary 24,942.00 570,130.74 Surrey Police 102,495.00 1,134,623.31 Sussex Police 74,575.67 927,281.05 Table 3: Cash forfeitures and confiscation orders obtained in 2006-07 Thames Valley Police 200,427.86 572,971.61 £ Warwickshire Police 10,827.36 46,528.93 Cash forfeitures Confiscation West Mercia 216,213.60 738,159.04 Avon and Somerset 118,111.16 1,099,536.51 Constabulary Constabulary West Midlands Police 558,050.48 1,475,672.28 Bedfordshire Police 79,555.83 321,706.92 West Yorkshire Police 161,138.70 2,089,223.87 Cambridgeshire 112,500.17 863,759.13 Wiltshire Constabulary 0.00 482,559.71 Constabulary 1057W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1058W

Table 3: Cash forfeitures and confiscation orders obtained in 2006-07 Table 4: Cash forfeitures and confiscation orders obtained in 2007-08 £ £ Cash forfeitures Confiscation Cash forfeitures Confiscation

Cheshire Constabulary 130,338.80 841,103.05 Derbyshire 307,125.81 1,768,291.06 City of London Police 137,504.33 1,550,085.48 Constabulary Cleveland Police 59,646.72 1,853,446.49 Devon and Cornwall 174,771.38 1,218,371.52 Constabulary Cumbria Constabulary 495,227.41 236,930.73 Dorset Police 213,137.09 1,866,821.24 Derbyshire 162,069.96 640,174.85 Constabulary Durham Constabulary 45,653.30 823,505.76 Devon and Cornwall 97,194.20 4,711,463.22 Dyfed-Powys Police 5,140.05 967,566.60 Constabulary Essex Police 164,430.96 339,582.35 Dorset Police 1,853,768.66 2,027,783.85 Gloucestershire 188,027.08 1,519,838.51 Durham Constabulary 86,225.50 268,878.43 Constabulary Dyfed-Powys Police 21,067.03 250,053.68 Greater Manchester 1,083,026.08 3,271,300.68 Police Essex Police 235,385.24 834,593.38 Gwent Police 52,732.23 1,565,678.40 Gloucestershire 107,130.05 186,267.36 Constabulary Hampshire 312,668.43 2,305,618.93 Constabulary Greater Manchester 463,050.74 2,441,451.40 Police Hertfordshire 291,054.10 2,806,168.90 Constabulary Gwent Police 45,003.42 665,378.67 Humberside Police 265,922.22 1,381,037.32 Hampshire 178,630.27 903,561.34 Constabulary Kent Police 364,777.91 2,762,467.82 Hertfordshire 657,098.02 558,882.07 Lancashire 368,809.92 2,312,764.17 Constabulary Constabulary Humberside Police 81,304.55 969,974.23 Leicestershire 351,623.65 4,209,907.03 Constabulary Kent Police 664,169.76 4,113,271.57 Lincolnshire Police 71,798.37 142,968.09 Lancashire 975,934.86 2,310,087.06 Constabulary Merseyside Police 2,957,249.53 3,245,151.92 Leicestershire 140,929.91 826,584.55 Metropolitan Police 8,373,279.61 24,972,207.04 Constabulary Service Lincolnshire Police 19,641.06 322,934.11 Norfolk Constabulary 34,977.43 2,414,427.49 Merseyside Police 1,542,181.62 4,998,019.81 North Wales Police 107,260.50 912,095.23 Metropolitan Police 6,481,594.79 15,025,413.87 North Yorkshire Police 104,044.67 1,318,236.16 Service Northamptonshire 236,158.65 2,854,229.90 Police Norfolk Constabulary 28,324.05 241,938.78 Northumbria Police 521,776.59 1,217,413.99 North Wales Police 131,853.02 2,759,123.52 Nottinghamshire 55,608.72 774,058.80 North Yorkshire Police 30,949.97 246,250.22 Police Northamptonshire 265,712.35 868,197.28 South Wales Police 77,724.48 705,113.30 Police South Yorkshire Police 823,546.30 4,212,846.70 Northumbria Police 83,624.81 444,487.43 Staffordshire Police 658,240.81 2,588,418.43 Nottinghamshire 36,135.10 3,887,056.10 Police Suffolk Constabulary 134,263.35 823,526.43 Surrey Police 155,774.69 697,375.94 South Wales Police 26,492.80 2,364,777.98 Sussex Police 276,478.55 846,218.14 South Yorkshire Police 263,347.87 1,321,946.43 Thames Valley Police 344,336.90 43,195,794.23 Staffordshire Police 518,779.68 888,112.46 Warwickshire Police 254,020.60 479,042.20 Suffolk Constabulary 11,435.00 457,049.93 West Mercia 154,079.71 1,113,729.67 Surrey Police 233,126.55 1,331,447.67 Constabulary Sussex Police 140,910.70 587,638.84 West Midlands Police 1,066,748.89 2,462,885.07 Thames Valley Police 130,023.40 1,688,234.89 West Yorkshire Police 362,677.71 1,987,305.48 Warwickshire Police 84,859.39 707,532.37 Wiltshire Constabulary 143,465.20 479,760.89 West Mercia 481,216.44 248,151.29 Constabulary Table 5: Cash forfeitures and confiscation orders obtained in 2008-09 West Midlands Police 711,811.19 4,562,478.49 £ West Yorkshire Police 162,303.07 4,815,559.45 Cash forfeitures Confiscation Wiltshire Constabulary 62,473.50 131,954.52 Avon and Somerset 262,223.98 2,224,622.10 Constabulary Table 4: Cash forfeitures and confiscation orders obtained in 2007-08 Bedfordshire Police 245,044.37 986,774.21 £ Cambridgeshire 26,800.97 1,009,504.46 Cash forfeitures Confiscation Constabulary Cheshire Constabulary 489,875.77 2,308,844.74 Avon and Somerset 219,704.84 1,335,388.37 Constabulary City of London Police 466,315.62 2,721,055.79 Bedfordshire Police 197,832.85 1,002,869.42 Cleveland Police 373,662.13 708,275.58 Cambridgeshire 106,883.26 1,345,644.77 Cumbria Constabulary 82,653.49 8,527,805.59 Constabulary Derbyshire 508,534.88 792,998.67 Cheshire Constabulary 369,451.60 820,631.85 Constabulary City of London Police 232,637.27 892,359.36 Devon and Cornwall 393,971.54 996,239.81 Constabulary Cleveland Police 164,746.07 752,366.29 Dorset Police 100,012.92 420,037.70 Cumbria Constabulary 194,348.46 1,300,313.01 Durham Constabulary 115,903.10 471,834.82 1059W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1060W

Material provided to the police in response to authorised Table 5: Cash forfeitures and confiscation orders obtained in 2008-09 access requests under RIPA has to be to an evidential £ standard, with procedures in place to ensure clear Cash forfeitures Confiscation accountability and compliance with the statutory Dyfed-Powys Police 102,698.64 176,438.60 framework. The arrangements and the charges are kept Essex Police 260,767.69 907,358.66 under review. Gloucestershire 221,398.93 1,802,755.18 Constabulary Greater Manchester 946,710.15 6,287,442.79 Police COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Gwent Police 214,909.26 1,886,885.76 Council Housing Hampshire 230,957.18 1,149,608.89 Constabulary Hertfordshire 233,143.46 1,243,256.27 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Constabulary Communities and Local Government what the net Humberside Police 236,364.14 1,366,912.09 change in the stock of local authority housing was in Kent Police 430,431.17 1,789,290.49 2008-09. [297819] Lancashire 991,765.70 5,753,770.38 Constabulary Mr. Ian Austin: The local authority housing stock Leicestershire 268,691.16 2,792,918.04 levels reported for 1 April 2008 and 1 April 2009 show a Constabulary reduction of 53,646 dwellings over the year. This figure Lincolnshire Police 85,352.56 518,169.20 is subject to audit. Merseyside Police 1,887,811.42 4,723,707.22 Metropolitan Police 11,183,290.26 37,491,923.31 Economic Situation Service Norfolk Constabulary 17,197.25 758,807.46 Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for North Wales Police 100,504.05 610,501.20 Communities and Local Government what steps his North Yorkshire Police 141,350.11 509,221.26 Department is taking to assist those local communities Northamptonshire 93,589.58 708,187.21 which are most vulnerable to the effects of the Police recession; and if he will make a statement. [296276] Northumbria Police 379,236.25 1,543,540.44 Nottinghamshire 351,929.69 1,709,461.67 Barbara Follett: Government will continue to do Police what is necessary to get Britain through the recession as South Wales Police 146,431.71 2,263,558.19 quickly and as fairly as possible. South Yorkshire Police 709,869.07 3,256,024.39 Staffordshire Police 359,286.26 3,860,860.07 We are seeing real results from the schemes put in Suffolk Constabulary 144,840.88 593,213.19 place for businesses, homeowners and those facing Surrey Police 128,303.31 903,820.95 unemployment as a result of the global recession. Sussex Police 92,578.47 1,590,927.88 For business the Government are aware of the impact Thames Valley Police 762,085.05 3,198,491.65 business rates can have in the current economic climate Warwickshire Police 230,815.56 305,016.37 which is why we have introduced a range of measures West Mercia 180,419.29 1,287,531.73 including the introduction of the business rates deferral Constabulary scheme which will enable business ratepayers to defer West Midlands Police 2,014,271.90 7,154,515.94 up to an estimated £650 million across 1.7million properties, West Yorkshire Police 341,671.93 3,505,952.26 boosting their cash flow. Wiltshire Constabulary 148,963.24 524,486.81 We are also supporting the construction industry Source: whilst increasing the number and quality of social Joint Asset Recovery Database. Data includes cases where forces were assisted by Regional Asset Recovery Teams. houses available, for example through the Kickstart programme which is over £1 billion targeted at currently Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 stalled sites to support development of high-quality mixed tenure developments. Lynne Featherstone: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition we introduced the LA new build programme the Home Department if he will review the charging to provide funding for local authorities to deliver new regimes in place for mobile location information social housing over the next two years on land they disclosed under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers already own that can be developed only by them. The Act 2000; what changes are made to (a) police forces £460 million fund could provide nearly 4,000 new homes and (b) private companies for disclosure of such by March 2012. information; and if he will make a statement. [296506] For homeowners: help is available to households at every stage of the process to ensure repossession is a Mr. Hanson: Some private organisations, such as last resort. Over 300,000 homeowners have got help and roadside breakdown services, have entered into advice since April 2008 and direct financial assistance is arrangements with their customers and communications helping over 200,000 people. service providers to enable them to obtain location For job seekers: Government have now invested information. This is not covert investigatory activity £5 billion to help those facing unemployment as a result requiring authorisation under the Regulation of of the global recession, providing more help and advice Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA). Moreover RIPA at every stage of unemployment. does not regulate the commercial activities of private CLG are supporting local government to deliver the companies. The Government have no data on costs LGA’s pledge to increase the number of apprenticeships incurred by private companies with such arrangements. by 7,500. 1061W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1062W

The HCA have committed to delivering 1300 apprentices Mr. Malik: I have received no recent formal through the Housing Pledge, and a further 1,500 apprentices representations from Lancashire county council and and local labour opportunities through the National Lancashire Fire and Rescue Service on the FiReControl Affordable Housing Programme. They are also looking Project. at their other funding programmes to see how they can However, we continue to have regular contact at a lever in more apprentices through those. technical level with all fire and rescue services in order to support delivery of the project. European Regional Development Fund Homelessness Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what his most recent estimate is of the contingent liabilities in relation Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for to (a) alleged financial irregularities with the European Communities and Local Government how many (a) Regional Development Fund and (b) corrections due social housing new lets and (b) households were to the European Commission in respect of such accepted as homeless in each local housing authority irregularities; and how much his Department and its area in England in the last 12 months. [295283] predecessors have paid to the European Commission in respect of corrections imposed as a result of financial Mr. Ian Austin: Numbers of new lets are reported by irregularities in each year since 1997. [294668] local authorities annually, through the Housing Strategy Statistical Appendix (HSSA), covering the period 1 Ms Rosie Winterton: The Department’s resource account April to 31 March. For local authorities, new lets are for 2008-09 which was published in July 2009 set out an defined as the number of lets given to tenants new to estimate of contingent liabilities that could arise in the reporting local authority. A table providing the future from the management of successive rounds of number of new lets in 2007-08 has been placed in the European regional development fund. The timing and Library. Figures for 2008-09 have not yet been published. magnitude of future liabilities largely depends upon the Numbers of new lets by registered social landlords outcome of the audit of each programme in the 2000-06 are available via the Continuous Recording of Lettings round of ERDF which are due to close formally by 31 system (CORE), covering the period 1 April to 31 March 2010 and a number of audits conducted by the March. For registered social landlords, new lets are European Commission. The reported estimate of contingent defined as the number of lets given to tenants new to liabilities will be reviewed in the light of the outcome of social housing as a whole. A table providing the number these audits. of lets made by registered social landlords in 2008-09 The Department has settled with the European has been placed in the Library. Commission the following amounts of financial corrections since 1997: Information about English local housing authorities’ actions under the homelessness legislation (part 7 of the 2008: ¤25.5 million (£20.1 million) Housing Act 1996) is collected at local authority level, 2009: ¤31.0 million (£26.9 million) and published by the Department in the quarterly Statistical Release on Statutory Homelessness, available both in Fire Services: Fareham the Library and via the CLG website: http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for statistics/homelessnessq22009 Communities and Local Government how much public Data collected include the number of households money has been spent on the proposed Fire Service accepted by local housing authorities as eligible for Regional Control Centre at Fareham; how much is assistance, unintentionally homeless and in priority need, being spent on a monthly basis in maintaining the and therefore owed a main homelessness duty (to secure facility; and what the monetary value is of contractual that suitable accommodation is available). obligations entered into in respect of the building. [296401] A table of the number of households accepted as owed a main homelessness duty, by each local authority Mr. Malik: Since practical completion on 15 May over the last 12 months (from 1 July 2008 to 30 June 2008, expenditure on Fareham Regional Control Centre 2009), has been placed in the Library. has been £2,356,788. The current monthly cost of the facility including rent, utilities and facilities management Housing is approximately £163,000. The contractual cost for the lease over the full 25 year lease term is £43,337,023 including uplifts for inflation. The contractual cost for Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for the facilities management over the full seven year contract Communities and Local Government (1) what steps his term is £2,635,876. Department and its predecessors have taken to assist (a) teachers and (b) other key workers with housing Fire Services: Lancashire costs in each year since 1997; [296578] (2) what estimate he has made of the number of key Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities workers in high-cost housing areas who have purchased and Local Government what recent representations he a home in each year since 2001; [296580] has received from (a) Lancashire County Council and (3) what estimate he has made of the number of key (b) Lancashire Fire and Rescue Service on the FiReControl workers in each category who purchased their first Project. [296753] home in each region in each year since 1997. [296581] 1063W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1064W

John Healey: Since 1997 we have assisted over 32,000 Key key workers through our low cost home ownership worker products. Region category 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

The main initiatives taken specifically to assist teachers Community 182 401 341 227 209 and other key workers with housing costs were the Safety Starter Homes Initiative launched in 2001, and succeeded Others3377794638 in 2004 by the Key Worker Living programme. Key workers are also a priority group for assistance through East Health00004 other low cost home ownership schemes including Midlands HomeBuy, the First Time Buyers Initiative and the Education 0 0005 London Wide Initiative. Community 00004 The following tables show the data available on the Safety number and categories of households who were assisted Others00000 into a home through the Starter Homes Initiative.

Community North East Health 0 0010 Health Education safety Others Total Education 0 0000

2001-02 37 57 10 3 107 Community 00002 Safety 2002-03 1,084 1,221 255 56 2,616 2003-04 2,743 1,887 1,048 320 5,998 Others00000 2004-05 31 31 8 7 77

Total — — — — 8,798 North West Health 0 0055 Education 0 0 0 2 11 Community Health Education safety Others Total Community 00047 Safety London 1,821 1,401 662 167 4,051 Others00001 South 1,565 1,281 527 173 3,546 East East 247 309 129 33 718 South West Health 0 0 0 33 66 South 260 180 3 13 456 Education 0 0 0 37 64 West West 2250 027 Community 0001742 Midlands Safety Total————8,798 Others00038

The data above shows that 8,798 key workers were West Health00009 helped through the Starter Homes Initiative A further Midlands 1,524 key workers were assisted where data on the Education 0 0 0 0 13 region and categories of households information is not Community 00008 available. In total 10,322 key workers were helped through Safety the Starter Home Initiative. Others00002 The following table shows the data available on the number of households who have been assisted into a Yorkshire Health00077 home through the Key Worker Living programme and and other low cost home ownership schemes available through Humberside HomeBuy. This does not include the First Time Buyers Education 0 0038 Initiative and London Wide Initiative. Community 00006 Safety Key Others00022 worker Region category 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Total 4,290 6,477 3,962 2,959 2,448

East Health 203 408 118 124 291 20,136 Education 240 376 134 136 144 Community 90 150 74 70 81 Safety The Key Worker Living programme operated in three Others2431211722regions, London, East and South East of England. From 2008 the Government gave key workers in all regions priority access to the HomeBuy programme as London Health 620 939 928 696 291 a whole. A further 1,377 key workers were assisted Education 684 1,489 661 496 295 where there are more than one key worker living in a Community 208 567 404 256 176 household. In total 21,513 key workers have been helped Safety through the Key Worker Living and HomeBuy programme. Others 52 95 132 98 42 The following tables show the data available on the South East Health 1,296 1,113 568 352 310 number of households who have been assisted into a Education 658 831 502 327 275 home through the First Time Buyers Initiative and London Wide Initiative. 1065W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1066W

First Time Buyers Initiative Table 1: Median income in each region in the UK for the years 1997-98, 1999- Calendar year 2000 to 2005-06, 2007-08, £ per week equivalised, 2007-08 prices Region 2006 2007 2008 1997-9 to 1998-99 to 1999-2000 Basis Region 1999-2000 2000-01 to 2001-02 South East 0 20 38 London 6 23 27 After Housing North East 235 241 260 Costs South West 0 13 24 East 0 2 21 North West 255 265 277 Yorkshire and 01312 Yorkshire 246 251 267 Humberside and the West Midlands 0 25 31 Humber North West 0 10 26 East 266 276 286 East Midlands 0 0 1 Midlands North East 0 2 0 West 265 268 277 Total 6 108 180 Midlands 294 East of 293 301 321 England London Wide Initiative London 278 295 312 2007-08 2008-09 South East 311 325 337 London 72 98 South West 264 275 288 Total 72 98 170 Scotland 269 276 286 Wales 249 255 265

From the data available, in total 294 key worker have Northern ——— been helped through the First Time Buyers Initiative Ireland and 170 key workers have been helped through the London Wide Initiative. 2000-01 to 2001-02 to 2002-03 to Basis Region 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Before North East 329 340 341 Communities and Local Government what estimate he Housing Costs has made of the median (a) house price and (b) North West 349 357 362 income in each (i) region and (ii) local authority area in [296579] Yorkshire 341 351 356 each year since 1997. and the Humber Mr. Ian Austin: Median house prices by local authority East 354 365 370 area are available on the Communities and Local Midlands West 351 360 362 Government website at: Midlands http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/xls/table- East of 411 414 412 586.xls England Data on median income by local authority for each London 424 432 431 year since 1997 can be provided only at disproportionate South East 437 445 448 cost. South West 372 378 384 Table 1: Median income in each region in the UK for the years 1997-98, 1999- Scotland 359 371 379 2000 to 2005-06, 2007-08, £ per week equivalised, 2007-08 prices Wales 335 340 345 1997-9 to 1998-99 to 1999-2000 Basis Region 1999-2000 2000-01 to 2001-02 Northern — — 356 Ireland Before North East 293 298 318 Housing Costs After Housing North East 274 285 287 North West 317 326 338 Costs Yorkshire 307 312 326 North West 289 299 305 and the Humber Yorkshire 282 293 300 and the East 330 338 348 Humber Midlands East 295 304 313 West 330 331 341 Midlands Midlands West 288 298 304 East of 372 379 397 Midlands England East of 336 341 341 London 374 393 408 England South East 400 413 424 London 326 334 333 South West 333 345 357 South East 348 358 363 Scotland 334 340 351 South West 302 312 320 Wales 310 313 322 Scotland 297 313 324 Northern ——— Wales 279 286 293 Ireland Northern — — 307 Ireland 1067W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1068W

(2) what estimate he has made of the number of 2003-04 to 2004-05 to 2005-06 to Basis Region 2005-06 2006/07 2007-08 insurers who offer insurance cover for the activities of housing associations; [297424] Before North East 347 352 352 Housing (3) if he will take steps to ensure that housing Costs associations take out adequate levels of insurance North West 364 365 365 cover. [297425] Yorkshire 356 363 366 and the Mr. Ian Austin: Registered social landlords (RSLs) Humber are independent social businesses and as such their East 373 371 369 Midlands boards have to be satisfied that business risks are properly West 357 358 361 assessed and audited. Midlands The Tenant Services Authority (TSA) is the independent East of 410 418 420 regulator of the RSL sector; it has statutory objectives England to ensure the viability and efficiency of the sector which London 435 438 441 must include risk tolerance and risk management. South East 450 453 457 The Government do not hold information pertaining South West 387 394 396 to the number of insurers that offer insurance cover for Scotland 386 386 388 the activities of housing associations. Wales 350 360 356 Northern 357 356 360 Ireland Housing: Construction

After Housing North East 292 299 304 Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Costs Communities and Local Government how much North West 308 309 311 funding has been allocated to housing construction in Yorkshire 301 307 311 Islington in each of the last five years; how many (a) and the Humber council and (b) housing association dwellings for (i) East 318 318 317 rent and (ii) shared ownership were built in Islington in Midlands each such year; how many such dwellings he expects to West 300 300 304 be built in 2009-10; how much such funding he expects Midlands to allocate in each of the next three years; and how East of 341 349 351 many such dwellings he expects to be built in Islington England in each of those years. [297231] London 338 344 351 South East 369 371 377 Mr. Ian Austin: The following table shows the number South West 325 332 332 of new registered social landlord (RSL) affordable homes Scotland 332 332 336 (social rent, intermediate rent and low cost home ownership) Wales 302 312 309 built in the London borough of Islington each year Northern 311 311 312 since 2003-04. There were no local authority affordable Ireland homes built in Islington in this period. Notes: RSL New build affordable homes in Islington 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income data. 2. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 sampling error and variability in non-response. 3. The reference period for Household Below Average Income figures is single Social rent 210 140 200 220 260 financial years. Three sample years have been combined as regional single year Intermediate 0 0 300 190 20 estimates are subject to volatility. rent 4. The income measures used to derive the estimates shown employ the same Low cost 40 10 20 350 110 methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions publication ’Households home Below Average Income’ (HBAI) series, which uses disposable household income, ownership adjusted (or ″equivalised″) for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for standard of living. Total 250 150 520 760 390 5. The figures are based on OECD equivalisation factors. affordable 6. Figures have been presented on both a Before Housing Cost and After homes Housing Cost basis. For Before Housing Cost, housing costs (such as rent, Source: water rates, mortgage interest payments, structural insurance payments and Homes and Communities Agency Investment Management System (IMS), ground rent and service charges) are not deducted from income, while for After and local authority returns to CLG. Figures have been rounded to nearest 10 Housing Cost they are. units. 7. Incomes are presented in 2007-08 prices and have been rounded to the nearest £ sterling. Not all affordable housing is provided by new build 8. Data for Northern Ireland is only available on the Family Resources Survey from 2002-03. completions, as some supply can come from acquisitions. For example, in 2007-08, a total of 530 additional affordable homes were provided in Islington (new build Housing Associations: Insurance and acquisitions). Total affordable housing supply statistics for 2008-09 Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for will be released by CLG in December 2009. Communities and Local Government (1) what Information on the number of homes completed for guidance his Department issues to housing associations social rent under the National Affordable Housing on best practices in (a) tendering for and (b) selecting programme (NAHP) for April to September 2009 will insurers for their activities; [297423] be released by the HCA on 24 November. 1069W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1070W

The following table shows expenditure through the John Healey: We have acted rapidly to put in place a Affordable Housing programme in Islington over the range of help and support for households struggling last five years (both for new build and acquisitions). with their mortgage at every stage, and launched a campaign to ensure households have clear information £ million about the help available. 2004-05 30.8 Mortgage Rescue scheme summary monitoring statistics 2005-06 25.8 are published on a quarterly basis on the Department’s 2006-07 44.9 website. Figures can be accessed using the following 2007-08 39.2 link: 2008-09 25.9 http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ statistics/mortgagerescuestatistics. As set out in the Homes and Communities Corporate We will be publishing headline data for the July to Plan for 2009-10 we are aiming to deliver in England September quarter 2009 on 12 November 2009, as 55,000 affordable homes in 2009-10 and 56,000 in 2010-11. pre-announced on the UK Statistics Authority Publication Future levels of expenditure and outputs beyond Hub and the Department’s statistical release schedule. 2010-11 will be dependent upon the outcome of the next Spending Review. Funding through the HCA is a Social Rented Housing process of competitive bidding and is not budgeted to local authority level. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) what the Housing: Low Incomes average council tax bill for a home for social rent owned by (a) a registered social landlord and (b) a Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for local authority was in each year since 1997; [297693] Communities and Local Government what maximum (2) how many homes for social rent at each council expenditure limit has been set for the (a) Social tax band there were in each local authority area in each HomeBuy and (b) Rent to HomeBuy scheme in (i) year since 1997; [297696] 2009-10 and (ii) 2010-11. [297783] (3) how many homes for social rent owned by (a) registered social landlords and (b) local authorities John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply there were in each council tax band in each year since given to him by my right hon. Friend the Member for 1997. [297701] Derby, South (Margaret Beckett) on 6 May 2009, Official Report, column 243-44W. Barbara Follett: This information is not held centrally.

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what maximum Communities and Local Government what discussions limit was placed on expenditure on the (a) Social (a) he and (b) Ministers in his Department have had HomeBuy, (b) Rent to HomeBuy and (c) Open with (i) registered social landlords and (ii) local Market HomeBuy scheme in each of the last three authorities on a national social housing exchange years. [297795] system in each of the last six months. [297694]

John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply Mr. Ian Austin: No such discussions have taken place. given to him by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Margaret Beckett) on 21 May 2009, Official Report, column 1540-42W. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what consideration his Department has given to the introduction of a Local Government: Stress national social housing exchange (a) programme and (b) website; and if he will make a statement. [297702] Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what guidance Mr. Ian Austin: Trends in social housing exchanges his Department provides to local authorities on seeking are monitored through the 2007-08 Housing Strategy to reduce work-related stress levels amongst their staff. Statistical Appendix (HSSA); the Department has no [296523] current proposals for the introduction of a national scheme. Ms Rosie Winterton: No such guidance is provided by the Department. Tenancy Deposit Solutions

Mortgages: Government Assistance Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much his Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Department paid to Tenancy Deposit Solutions Ltd in and Local Government how many people in (a) England, each of the last five years. [297728] (b) the North East, (c) Tees Valley and (d) Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland constituency have participated John Healey: The Department has not provided any in the Mortgage Protection scheme since its inception. financial support to Tenancy Deposit Solutions Ltd. in [297143] any of the last five years. 1071W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1072W

Working Neighbourhoods Fund 78 enquiries from businesses in the West Midlands seeking investment to the value of £76.9 million. While John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for no investments have been made so far in this region, one Communities and Local Government what funding his business has been offered investment totalling £1.5 million Department expects to make available to local and 11 propositions are under active consideration with authorities in England from the Working a value of £13.9 million. The remaining enquiries are Neighbourhoods Fund in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 either being considered subject to further information and (c) 2011-12. [297151] to be supplied by the applicant or have been rejected or withdrawn. Ms Rosie Winterton: The Working Neighbourhoods Fund is paid through Area Based Grant, indicative Companies Act 2006 announcements have been made for the 2008-09 to 2010-11 spending period. £507,800,000 has been allocated John Penrose: To ask the Minister of State, Department for 2009-10, and the indicative settlement for 2010-11 is for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps were £507,900,000. We expect to confirm what funding is taken to enable Companies House to manage the demand available for 2010-11 in December, alongside the Local for electronic incorporations following the coming into Government Finance Settlement. No decision has been force of the relevant provisions of the Companies Act made about Working Neighbourhoods Fund beyond 2006 on 1 October 2009. [296446] 2010-11. Ian Lucas: All Companies House operational processes, including electronic incorporations, required to support BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS the implementation of the Companies Act 2006, were subject to the same programme disciplines. Processes Business Council for Britain were reviewed, redesigned as necessary within the programme, and then quality assured by the relevant Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Department operational areas. The computer system changes required for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he to support the revised operational processes were designed, has made of the achievements of the Business Council built and subjected to a number of testing cycles. Staff for Britain against its objectives. [295909] were trained to undertake the new processes and then had practice sessions to reinforce the training they had Ian Lucas: The Business Council for Britain was received. In addition staff were trained in a number of established by the Prime Minister to ensure that the processes to allow resources to be redeployed into areas Government focuses on the areas where it will make the experiencing high demand. A communications programme, greatest benefit to the business environment and to in collaboration with the Department of Business Skills assist the Government in putting in place the right and Innovation, was run over the last two years to strategy to enable business to compete in the global inform customers of the changes coming into force and economy. how they would be affected. The Business Council continues to operate as a private sounding board for Government and provides a valuable Companies: Complaints insight into the current cross-cutting challenges and opportunities, highlighting where the links need to be made in order to drive a competitive UK economy. Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many complaints Business: Government Assistance Companies House received in respect of companies registered with it in each of the last four years. [295903] Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Ian Lucas: The number of complaints received by many small businesses in Coventry have applied for Companies House on technical offences in respect of financial assistance under (a) the Enterprise Finance companies registered in each of the last four years is as Guarantee scheme and (b) the Capital Enterprise follows. scheme; and how many such applications were successful. [297389] Number

Ian Lucas: Under the Enterprise Finance Guarantee, 2006 2,347 as of 28 October, 19 businesses in Coventry have been 2007 2,427 offered loans totalling £2.4 million. Businesses may 2008 2,505 apply for a loan from any one of the participating 20091 2,329 lenders who will assess which form of lending, including 1Up until October the Enterprise Finance Guarantee, is most appropriate. We do not hold figures for those businesses which are Copyright: Internet instead offered a normal commercial loan, or are rejected for failing to meet the lender’s commercial criteria. Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, Department Capital for Enterprise Fund (CfEF) activity data on for Business, Innovation and Skills what his most recent enquiries and deal flow is collected on a national and assessment is of the effectiveness of (a) bandwidth regional basis and is not available for reporting at a capping and (b) temporary internet account suspension sub regional basis. As from 28 October CfEF received in preventing illegal music file sharing. [296348] 1073W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1074W

Ian Lucas: Both measures are options which could be Ian Lucas: The most recent assessment of the likely used to combat unlawful file-sharing of music files. The costs to internet service providers was contained in the effectiveness of (a) bandwidth capping would depend Government’s consultation on P2P file-sharing issued on the level of the cap imposed and the aim would be to on 16 June 2009. impose such a level as to severely restrict such activity The impact assessment calculated the likely costs to without unduly impacting on other legitimate internet ISPs to be between £290-500 million over a 10 year activities. Temporary account suspension (b) would period. This was set against likely benefits in the region block all file-sharing. However it would also prevent of £1.2-1.4 billion. access to all internet functions and as such is a serious step which would only be used against the most serious Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, infringers. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what It should be noted that this is a fast changing area of recent steps he has taken to obtain assessments from technology and before considering introducing any such internet service providers of the likely cost to them of measure, we would seek up-to-date advice from Ofcom compliance with obligations set out in the Digital as to their effectiveness. Britain report to reduce unlawful file sharing on their networks. [296373] Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what his most recent Ian Lucas: We have held two consultations (July 2008 assessment is of the likely effect on internet accounts and June 2009) on possible action to tackle unlawful which have been used to unlawfully file share copyrighted P2P file-sharing. Both consultations contained impact material of the threat of temporary account suspension. assessments and both formally asked all parties, including [296349] ISPs, for further information on the likely costs that would result. In particular the most recent consultation Ian Lucas: The suspension of an internet account is a asked for estimates of the likely cost of the obligations possible option that might be employed against those proposed. This consultation closed on 29 September subscribers who have been identified as persistently 2009. file-sharing material in breach of copyright. There is a More informally we have been in constant contact mass of industry survey evidence which shows that with all stakeholders including ISPs over the last two most subscribers would cease file-sharing activity if years and have made it clear throughout that we welcome they received warning letters backed up with the threat additional and updated information on costs. of further enforcement action. Enforcement action in the form of account suspension represents a real, effective Departmental Manpower and credible deterrent. However it would also block legitimate internet activities and as such is a serious step Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Department which would only be used against the most serious for Business, Innovation and Skills how many staff were infringers. allocated to defence-related work in each of the last It should be noted that this is a fast changing area of four years. [295050] technology and social behaviour and before considering Ian Lucas: Since 2007, BIS (and its predecessors) has the introduction of such a measure, we would seek had three full-time staff engaged on defence industrial up-to-date advice from Ofcom. policy and relationship management of companies in the defence sector. In 2006, there were five full-time Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, Department posts. for Business, Innovation and Skills what his most recent assessment is of the likely effect on consumers of a The Ministry of Defence’s former Defence Export reduction in the level of unlawful peer-to-peer file sharing Service’s Organisation (DESO) transferred to BIS on 1 on the internet. [296359] April 2008 to form UK Trade and Investment’s Defence and Security Organisation (UKTI-DSO). This focuses Ian Lucas: File-sharing is an activity which requires on promoting UK defence exports and employs 152 large amounts of internet bandwidth. Many ISPs already staff. employ traffic management techniques to limit bandwidth- hungry applications at peak times to optimise the Further Education performance of their networks. Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department Any significant reduction in unlawful file-sharing for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent activity could therefore improve average broadband representations he has received from the further education speeds. sector on the use of the title of college. [297089] A reduction in unlawful file-sharing will be the result of enforcement, education and new commercial deals. Ian Lucas: In the last six months, the only representations We would therefore expect a greater number legal content received from the further education sector have been offers to become available to consumers thereby increasing two letters from the chief executive of the Association choice. of Colleges on behalf of its members. Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, Department Internet for Business, Innovation and Skills what his most recent assessment is of the likely costs to internet service Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, Department providers of compliance with the obligations set out in for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what his most the Digital Britain report to reduce unlawful file sharing recent assessment is of the proportion of the UK’s on their networks. [296372] internet traffic that is peer-to-peer; [296351] 1075W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1076W

(2) what his most recent assessment is of the Ms Diana R. Johnson [holding answer 16 October proportion of network traffic carried by the main 2009]: 52 (10.3 per cent. of those entered) pupils eligible domestic internet service providers that is illegal for free school meals achieved a grade A in A-level peer-to-peer. [296352] history in 2008. This figure relates to 16 to 18-year-olds (age at start Ian Lucas: No such assessment has been made. This of academic year, i.e. 31 August 2007) in all maintained would require all ISPs to have the necessary technical schools. ability to examine the contents of network traffic and to compare the contents against a registered content database Sixth Form Education: Finance to establish the legality of the traffic. Currently UK ISPS do not have such a capability. Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for In turn, HM Government cannot require them to Children, Schools and Families when his Department monitor internet traffic in this way as such a general was first informed by the Learning and Skills Council requirement would run counter to the eCommerce Directive. of the projected reduction in funding for 16 to 19 year Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries old education for 2009-10; and if he will make a statement. [271205]

Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Iain Wright: We worked across Government to for Business, Innovation and Skills how many cars had identify additional funding for the recent surge in demand been purchased under the car scrappage scheme in (a) for education and training. Thanks to the £655 million Chorley, (b) Lancashire and (c) the North West at the funding announcement in the Budget, we will be able to latest date for which figures are available. [296720] fund learning for an additional 54,500 young people each year for 2009/10 and 2010/11. This additional Ian Lucas: Using data based on the locations of investment will secure the learning places required to dealerships and data for scrappage transactions which help meet the September guarantee of a suitable learning have been completed and vehicles delivered, there have place for every 16 to 18-year-old who wants one. been 23,864 completed scrappage transactions in the North West, 3,752 in Lancashire and 142 in Chorley. This will mean that we have funding for at least 1,550,000 learners for 2009/10 and 2010/11, the highest Video Games number of young people in learning that this country has ever seen. Philip Davies: To ask the Minister of State, Department We were quickly able to reassure school and college for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he leaders who had previously feared their financial allocations has made of the monetary value of (a) exports of would not fund their growth in the number of young UK-produced video games and (b) video game imports people wanting to continue learning. to the UK in each year since 2001. [295763] It will also mean that we were able to fund a further 20,000 young people who had not made their choice of Ian Lucas: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I learning place earlier in the year. We have recently gave him on 26 October 2009, Official Report, column announced an additional allocation for providers to 133W. deal with further over recruitment that has become apparent this September/October. Details of the latter will be announced shortly.

CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES Teachers TV: Finance Departmental Marketing Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much his Department and Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, its predecessor paid towards the production of Schools and Families what his Department’s budget for Teachers TV in the last three years for which figures are publicity and advertising was in (a) 2007-08 and (b) available; and if he will make a statement. [293402] 2008-09; and if he will make a statement. [293394] Ms Diana R. Johnson: The operating and financial Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department’s publicity years of the Teachers TV service in the relevant period and advertising budgets for the two years are contained ran from 1 August 2006 to 31 July 2007; from 1 August in the following table. 2007 to 31 May 2008 (10 months) and from 1 June 2008 to 31 March 2009 (10 months). The second and third Total (£) periods are shorter as these were tied in to the re-tendering 2008/09 2,330,000 of the supply contract in 2007/08 and a decision to align 2007/08 4,859,830 the operating year for the service to the normal financial year rather than the academic year; the new contract GCE A-Level: Disadvantaged commenced on 1 June 2008. In the year to 31 July 2007 the Department paid the Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Teachers TV supplier a total of £16,727,420. Children, Schools and Families how many pupils on In the 10-month period from 1 August 2007 to 31 May free school meals were awarded a grade A in A Level 2008 the Department paid the Teachers TV supplier a history in 2008. [293607] total of £10,700,298. 1077W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1078W

In the 10-month period from 1 June 2008 to 31 March You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, when 2009 the Department paid the Teachers TV supplier a she expects the Chief Executive of the Child Support Agency to total of £10,194,616. respond to emails from the hon. Member for Eastbourne dated 20 May 24 July, and 24 August 2009, regarding his constituent Mr. Holmes. [293986] As details about individual cases are confidential I have written WORK AND PENSIONS to you separately about this case.

Bereavement Grants: Nurses Council Tax: Housing Benefit

John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many student nurses have and Pensions how many households in each region unsuccessfully applied for bereavement grants from her were in receipt of (a) council tax and (b) housing Department in each of the last three years. [292039] benefit in each of the last 12 months for which figures are available. [297252] Helen Goodman: The information is not available. Helen Goodman [holding answer 2 November 2009]: Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission: The available information is in the following tables. Correspondence Information is only available monthly from November 2008; prior to that information is published quarterly. Mr. Waterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Number of households receiving housing benefit by English region and country: and Pensions when she expects the Chief Executive of August 2006 to May 2007 the Child Support Agency to respond to emails from 2006 2007 the hon. Member for Eastbourne dated 31 July, August November February May August 11 September and 8 October 2009, regarding his North East 228,350 227,050 228,580 226,820 227,440 [293985] constituent Mrs Baker. North West 516,070 518,390 520,300 518,430 518,560 Yorkshire 345,790 350,470 350,910 350,950 349,450 Helen Goodman: The Child Maintenance and and the Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child Humber maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance East 244,910 246,040 246,690 242,660 244,850 Commissioner to write to the hon. Member with the Midlands West 366,760 364,250 369,420 368,140 369,570 information requested and I have seen the response. Midlands Letter from Stephen Geraghty: East 297,060 297,830 300,760 300,150 302,140 In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the London 689,680 694,300 692,600 693,450 698,340 Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive South East 412,680 413,810 414,370 414,600 416,410 reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child South West 288,850 284,830 285,600 286,380 286,210 Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance Wales 201,940 200,640 201,250 200,420 200,690 and Enforcement Commission. Scotland 432,210 431,160 429,270 429,800 427,260 You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, when she expects the Chief Executive of the Child Support Agency to respond to emails from the hon. Member for Eastbourne dated 31 Number of household receiving council tax benefit by English region and July, 11 September and 8 October 2009, regarding his constituent country: August 2006 to May 2007 Mrs Baker. [293985] 2006 2007 As details about individual cases are confidential I have written August November February May August to you separately about this case. North East 295,800 294,660 295,620 294,630 296,640 Mr. Waterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work North West 684,440 684,750 686,640 682,560 682,710 Yorkshire 460,250 461,050 461,040 460,700 459,010 and Pensions when she expects the Chief Executive of and the the Child Support Agency to respond to emails from Humber the hon. Member for Eastbourne dated 20 May, 24 July East 337,270 337,730 338,270 336,400 336,230 and 24 August 2009, regarding his constituent Midlands Mr. Holmes. [293986] West 503,030 501,100 506,650 503,850 504,300 Midlands Helen Goodman: The Child Maintenance and East 386,960 390,610 390,900 391,350 391,780 Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child London 726,740 728,950 728,470 724,440 728,010 maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance South East 500,990 501,720 504,020 502,220 503,910 Commissioner to write to the hon. Member with the South West 371,480 367,420 368,810 368,860 368,200 information requested and I have seen the response. Wales 282,970 281,630 282,240 282,250 281,890 Scotland 537,730 534,680 533,920 529,680 526,400 Letter from Stephen Geraghty: Notes: In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the 1. The data refers to benefit units, which may be a single person or a couple. Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive 2. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. 3. Housing benefit figures exclude any extended payment cases. reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Source: Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit Management Information System and Enforcement Commission. Quarterly 100 per cent. taken in August 2006 - August 2007 1079W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1080W

Number of households receiving housing benefit by English region and country: November 2008 to May 2009 2008 2009 November December January February March April May

North East 232,450 233,930 236,720 238,220 239,050 240,250 241,280 North West 529,720 530,470 534,050 540,780 544,110 547,530 552,880 Yorkshire and the Humber 361,140 364,170 371,370 371,950 375,480 378,750 381,520 East Midlands 260,730 262,430 265,500 273,330 276,860 278,510 281,350 West Midlands 385,690 388,690 393,880 396,380 402,180 407,220 409,210 East 318,200 321,650 323,600 329,340 332,720 336,170 339,630 London 711,650 714,740 719,260 721,490 728,870 734,180 738,650 South East 439,260 443,920 450,530 456,520 461,450 467,600 469,900 South West 299,850 302,640 310,610 315,550 318,800 323,490 324,470 Wales 210,820 213,230 213,920 217,310 219,570 220,370 221,970 Scotland 419,100 420,900 428,370 434,030 438,440 440,250 443,130

Number of households receiving council tax benefit by English region and country: November 2008 to May 2009 2008 2009 November December January February March April May

North East 296,580 298,850 302,670 306,070 306,300 308,660 309,980 North West 685,800 688,890 691,210 697,360 701,150 706,550 712,430 Yorkshire and the Humber 464,280 469,540 478,700 479,400 483,580 489,680 491,470 East Midlands 349,430 351,770 355,970 365,530 369,600 372,520 375,020 West Midlands 514,480 519,000 525,170 529,140 535,760 542,740 544,370 East 405,300 409,460 411,890 417,640 421,560 426,650 429,980 London 728,320 731,110 734,670 735,890 740,220 747,880 751,040 South East 520,140 525,710 534,380 541,100 546,380 554,700 556,400 South West 377,750 380,670 391,730 396,310 399,260 405,690 406,240 Wales 289,440 292,250 293,340 298,000 300,840 302,720 304,000 Scotland 520,760 523,430 531,030 534,930 541,940 544,190 547,300 Notes: 1. The data refers to benefit units, which may be a single person or a couple. 2. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. 3. Figures for any non-responding authorities have been estimated. 4. Housing benefit figures exclude any extended payment cases. 5. Council tax benefit figures exclude second adult rebates. 6. Please visit: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/Methodology_revision_webpage.pdf for an understanding of improvements in methodology for housing benefit/council tax benefit caseload National Statistics. Source: Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE)

Departmental Telephone Services standards of customer service and greater operational efficiency by achieving consistent, standard operational Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Work processes in all its contact centres. and Pensions if she will consider the merits of securing accreditation of her Department’s helplines to the Employment and Support Allowance: Bedfordshire Helplines Association’s quality standard; and if she will make a statement. [295717] Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many residents of Mid- Jim Knight: Jobcentre Plus contact centre directorate, Bedfordshire constituency have (a) applied for and (b) and contact centres within Pensions, Disability and been refused employment and support allowance since Carers Service have all received accreditation through October 2008. [295419] the Customer Contact Association (CCA). DWP took the decision to use the CCA for its external Jim Knight: The information is not available. accreditation as it is the professional body for the call and contact centre industry. The CCA membership Employment Schemes: Young People reflects the highest standards of staff care and customer service and is seen as an independent organisation with Chloe Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work over 600 public and private sector members. It also and Pensions what steps she is taking to ensure that promotes best practice and professional development under 25 year olds in Norwich North constituency are through a wide range of benefits and services. provided with an employment or training opportunity Over and above complying with the recommendations within one year of becoming unemployed. [296157] set out by Sir David Varney (in his “Service transformation: A better service for citizens and businesses, a better deal Jim Knight: The Government have increased support for taxpayers”, published in December 2006), accreditation for young people from day one of jobseeker’s allowance to the CCA standard enables DWP to deliver higher claims. From early 2010, the Young Persons Guarantee 1081W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1082W will ensure that, before 12 months on jobseeker’s allowance, Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work all 18 to 24-year-olds will be guaranteed a job, training and Pensions what the estimated cost per job was of or meaningful activity. each successful bid proposal under the Future Jobs The Future Jobs Fund, part of the Young Persons Fund. [297347] Guarantee announced in the Budget, will create new jobs for the long-term unemployed, particularly young Jim Knight: As the number of jobs being created and adults and those in unemployment hotspots. This initiative costs vary between bids, the average unit cost per job will create 150,000 jobs, of which 100,000 will be targeted will change with each funding round. The estimated at young adults who will be eligible for jobs from the average cost is expected to be between £6,300 to £6,500 fund in their tenth month of unemployment, and 50,000 per job over the life of the fund. will be focused on unemployment hotspots. Jobs in the Future Jobs Fund: Scotland latter are available to all of the long-term unemployed irrespective of their age. Danny Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for There are no specific bids for Norwich, North. The Work and Pensions how many jobs she expects to be bid for Norfolk county council is currently creating 356 created under the Future Jobs Fund in (a) Scotland, jobs between October 2009 and March 2010, which (b) the Highlands and (c) Inverness in the next includes jobs in Norwich (as the first round of awards 12 months; and what categories of job she expects to be are initially for delivery over a six month period). National created. [296833] bids may also create jobs in this area. Jim Knight: The Future Jobs Fund is creating 150,000 Future Jobs Fund jobs across the UK, depending on the quality of the bids received. There is no specific allocation of numbers Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for to Scotland, the Highlands or Inverness. In total 3,359 Work and Pensions how much of the Future Jobs Fund jobs have been funded for the six months from October has been allocated to bids in (a) Basingstoke, (b) 2009 to March 2010 in Scotland. The first round of Hampshire and (c) England in 2009-10. [296419] awards is initially for delivery over a six month period. Of these, 1,452 jobs will be created by the bids from Jim Knight [holding answer 29 October 2009]: It is SCVO, Scottish Wildlife Trust and the Salvation Army not possible to state how much of the Future Jobs Fund and may include jobs in the Highlands and Inverness. has been allocated to bids in Basingstoke, Hampshire However, it is not yet possible to specify job numbers and England. This information is commercially sensitive. in individual areas. The bidding process is ongoing and in the future we may receive other bids to create jobs in There are no specific bids for Basingstoke. The bid these regions. for Hampshire county council is currently creating 398 jobs between October 2009 and March 2010, which The types of jobs being created are: warehouse assistants; includes jobs in Basingstoke (as the first round of stores and workshop assistants; drivers; retail and sales awards are initially for delivery over a six-month period). assistants; furniture assembly and production; conservation; National bids may also create jobs in this area. landscaping; footpath construction; residential; and, family and day care assistants. The £1 billion Future Jobs Fund will create 150,000 jobs. To date, around 60,000 jobs have already been Housing Benefit approved and the first jobs have actually started. Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the (a) original estimate of Work and Pensions what proportion of the Future Jobs expenditure on and (b) actual expenditure on local Fund has been allocated to the creation of 50,000 housing allowance was in each financial year since its jobs in unemployment hotspots; what criteria her introduction. [293971] Department uses to define an unemployment hotspot; and what the eligibility criteria for applications for such Helen Goodman: Out-turn data for 2008-09 will be posts are. [295282] published shortly after the pre-Budget report.

Jim Knight: The proportion of jobs in each bid Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for targeted at those living in areas of high unemployment Work and Pensions how much expenditure from will be negotiated with successful bidders, during the allowing claimants to receive more in local housing Grant Award period. Therefore, complete information allowance than they have to pay in rent the is not available at this time. Government (a) has incurred in each year since the Unemployment hotspots are defined as areas of high introduction of the allowance and (b) is expected to unemployment, where the rate of claimant unemployment incur in 2009-10. [294059] is at least 1.5 percentage points above the national average. Our assumption is that approximately one-third Helen Goodman: The local housing allowance was of the £1 billion will be allocated to hotspot areas. rolled out nationally to new claims and to those who Jobs in areas of high unemployment will not be move address from 7 April 2008. restricted to 18-24 year olds approaching the 10 month The Department has aggregate expenditure information point of their Jobseeker’s Allowance claim. Customers for 2008-09 on local housing allowance so cannot give claiming other out of work benefits for at least 39 weeks the actual value of expenditure incurred from allowing and living in the specified area will be eligible to apply claimants to receive more in local housing allowance for these jobs. than they have to pay in rent. 1083W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1084W

The table shows the current estimate of the additional Helen Goodman: The information is not available. expenditure which may have been incurred in 2008-09 and is expected to occur in 2009-10. Industrial Health and Safety: Sellafield Estimated cost of allowing claimants to receive more in local housing allowance than they have to pay in rent Greg Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work £ million and Pensions if she will place in the Library a copy of the letter sent by the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate 2008-09 60 to Sellafield Ltd. on meeting the Inspectorate’s 2009-10 180 specifications in respect of safety at legacy ponds and Source: silos at the Sellafield site. [255997] Budget 2009 estimates It is important to note that these estimates are subject Jonathan Shaw: I refer the hon. Member to the to a number of assumptions and estimates are sensitive answer given on 12 October 2009, Official Report, columns to small changes in these assumptions. 490-91W.

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jobcentre Plus and Pensions how many and what percentage of local housing allowance claimants had their allowance paid Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (a) (b) directly to their social and private landlord in and Pensions what the Jobcentre Plus National each quarter since the allowance was introduced. Workload Projection updates are for the most recent [296838] four quarters, broken down by the smallest possible Helen Goodman [holding answer 2 November 2009]: geographical area. [276441] This information is not available. Jim Knight [holding answer 19 May 2009]: Available Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work information has been placed in the Library. and Pensions how many individuals received local The most recent four quarters are July 2008, October housing allowance in England in each quarter since the 2008, January 2009 and April 2009. No geographical allowance was introduced. [296926] area breakdown was produced in January 2009.

Helen Goodman [holding answer 2 November 2009]: Jobcentre Plus: Manpower The available information is in the table. Number of recipients of local housing allowance: England, Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work November 2008 to May 2009 and Pensions how many personal advisers have been Local housing allowance tenants employed in jobcentres in each of the last 10 years. [271624] November 2008 358,740 February 2009 481,640 Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a May 2009 602,550 matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the right hon. 2. The data refer to benefit units, which may be a single person or a Member with the information requested. couple. Letter from Mel Groves: 3. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. 4. LHA does not include recipients with unknown tenure type. The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question 5. Local housing allowance tenants may include a small number of asking how many personal advisers have been employed in Jobcentres non-LHA cases making a new claim since 6 April 2008. This will in each of the last 10 years. This is something that falls within the include recipients in caravan accommodation. responsibilities delegated to me as Acting Chief Executive of 6. Please visit Jobcentre Plus. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/ Information is only available from 2003/04. The following table Methodology_revision_webpage.pdf shows the number of advisers for each year from 2003/04 to for an understanding of improvements in methodology for housing 2009/10. These figures represent an average of staff deployed in benefit/council tax benefit case load National Statistics. personal adviser activities across each year. Source: Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) The table reports a reducing trend in personal adviser numbers over the period. That reflects a decline in unemployment levels. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for However, as unemployment has increased, this has resulted in Work and Pensions whether her Department has made additional personal advisers being recruited during the second a recent estimate of the number of recipients of housing half of 2008/09. As at May 2009, Jobcentre Plus had 10,458 advisers in post and more are currently being recruited. benefit who have been unable to meet their rent costs as a consequence of the withdrawal of benefit on entry to Jobcentre Plus personal advisers employment. [297228] Full-time equivalents

Helen Goodman: The Department has no such data. 2003-04 10,159 2004-05 10,515 Housing Benefit: St. Albans 2005-06 10,259 2006-07 9,275 Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2007-08 9,235 and Pensions how many people resident in St. Albans 2008-09 9,425 constituency were in receipt of housing benefit at the 2009-101 10,193 latest date for which figures are available. [297591] 1 Figure is average staff deployed between April 2009 and May 2009. 1085W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1086W

Jobcentre Plus: Standards Jim Knight: The total number of jobseeker claimants who have been in receipt of the allowance since 1997 is Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 390 in Great Britain. The numbers in each constituency Work and Pensions what evaluation she has made of are very small and once rounded to the nearest 10, for the effectiveness of Jobcentre Plus; and what recent disclosure control, will be predominately zero. steps have been taken to improve the performance of Jobcentre Plus in enabling people to obtain Means Tested Benefits employment. [293937] Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jim Knight: The Department for Work and Pensions and Pensions what estimate she has made of the number uses independent experts to research and evaluate the of people who did not claim a means-tested benefit to effectiveness of its labour market programmes. This which they were entitled in the last 12 months; what evidence is published in the Department’s Research estimate she has made of the amount of money in Report series, which can be found at means-tested benefit which was not claimed by such http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/ people; and if she will make a statement. [289763] Jobcentre Plus effectiveness is specifically assessed using a range of monthly targets. These targets are Jim Knight: The latest estimates of the numbers designed to increase productivity, efficiency and effectiveness. entitled to but not receiving income related benefits and The Department for Work and Pensions regularly reviews of the amounts of unclaimed income related benefits these targets and progress towards them. More details are published in the report “Income Related Benefits including performance against targets can be found at: Estimates of Take-Up in 2007-08”. A copy has been www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/jcp/Aboutus/ placed in the Library. Jobcentreplusperformance/2009_-_10_Targets/index.html Jobcentre Plus has deployed extra resources to deliver Members: Correspondence services to customers following announcements in the pre-Budget report and Budget 2009. It has increased Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for front line staffing by around 15,000. The people who Work and Pensions when she plans to reply to the letter have been recruited are employed on a wide range of of 21 September 2009 from the right hon. Member for customer facing roles, providing support to customers Manchester, Gorton with regard to Miss A. S. Tame. through job search advice and benefit processing. [297630] Jobcentre Plus has also introduced a wide range of Jim Knight: Following an extensive search of new measures. It has: departmental records, no trace can be found of my right strengthened and expanded the Rapid Response Service which hon. Friend’s correspondence with regard to Miss A. S. offers help and support even before redundancy. Since November Tame. If my right hon. Friend would care to write to the 2008, more than 3,000 employers have accepted support offered Secretary of State again, she will be happy to respond. by the Rapid Response Service. extended the help available through Local Employment National Insurance: Foreign Workers Partnerships to provide help for the newly unemployed. It met its target of finding jobs for 250,000 priority customers a year Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work early. In September 2009, Government announced a new target and Pensions (1) what procedures her Department to get another 500,000 people into work through local employment follows to revoke national insurance numbers from partnerships by the end of 2010. those whose right to work in the UK has expired; provided additional support from day one, including help for [294165] the newly unemployed to get up to date with the latest job (2) what steps her Department takes to ensure that search techniques. foreign nationals awarded national insurance numbers introduced extra help for customers at the start of a claim, cannot continue to use those numbers once their giving them advice within three days of claiming, plus extra help for professionals and executives. At six months, customers student and work visas have expired. [294167] are offered recruitment subsidies, work-focused training or volunteering options, and help to start a business. Jim Knight: A national insurance number is not sufficient to demonstrate an entitlement to work. Employers Budget 2009 included a significant new package of must carry out a specified document check on any job support for people, particularly young adults, and included applicant’s entitlement to work. Most foreign nationals an additional £1.1 billion for a new Future Jobs Fund will demonstrate their entitlement to be employed through and a Young Person’s Guarantee—a guaranteed offer their national passport. For migrant workers with a of a job, work-focused training, or other activity to all temporary immigration status, this specified check must 18 to 24-year-olds before they have reached the 12 month be repeated not less than every 12 months. stage of their claim to Jobseeker’s Allowance. Furthermore, over 150 top British employers are supporting Backing The Department for Work and Pensions conducts Young Britain, a national campaign to create new thorough identity and immigration status checks on opportunities for thousands of young people during the applications for national insurance numbers from foreign recession. nationals. An individual who has no right to be in or work in the UK and applies for a national insurance Jobseeker’s Allowance number will be refused. The national insurance number is an administrative John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Work reference number used for benefits, tax and national and Pensions how many jobseeker’s allowance insurance contribution purposes. A national insurance claimants in each constituency have been in receipt of number does not confer any right to benefits, or demonstrate the allowance continuously since 1997. [295441] an entitlement to work. 1087W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1088W

National insurance numbers, once allocated, are not Jim Knight: The table shows the number of spells revoked except in very limited, specified circumstances, started on New Deal schemes in the Mid-Bedfordshire such as where duplicate numbers have been issued. This constituency since 2004. Some individuals may have is because a national insurance number, even if only had more than one start: used for a limited period, links an individual to their national insurance contributions record which may be Total starters (spells) relevant to any future claim to contributory benefits or state pension. 2004 230 2005 210 Anyone who has previously acquired a national insurance 2006 230 number but no longer has the right to live, work or 2007 220 study in the UK does not have access to the benefits 2008 220 system and possession of a national insurance number 2009 110 would not enable a claim to succeed. Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest ten. Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2. Westminster Parliamentary constituency (post May 2005) is allocated and Pensions how many national insurance numbers using the ONS Postcode Directory and customer’s postcode. 3. The year of starting is the calendar year of starting the New Deal. were withdrawn from those deemed to be illegal 4. Starters (spells) data are not available for New Deal 50 Plus or New immigrants in each year since 1997. [294174] Deal for Partners so Starters (individuals) data have been used instead for these schemes. This means that for these schemes only an individual’s Jim Knight: A National Insurance number is not most recent spell on that New Deal is recorded. 5. Data for New Deal for Partners is available from April 2004 sufficient to demonstrate an entitlement to work. (programme started in May 1989). The Department for Work and Pensions conducts 6. Latest data is to May 2009. thorough identity and immigration status checks on Source: The Department for Work and Pensions Information Division. applications for National Insurance numbers from foreign The figures are available at: nationals. An individual who has no right to be in or http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/tabtool.asp work in the UK and applies for a National Insurance number will be refused. The Department for Work and Pensions does not withdraw National Insurance numbers once allocated Post Office Card Account: Fife except in very limited circumstances, such as where duplicate numbers have been issued. This is because a Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State National Insurance number, even if only used for a for Work and Pensions how many and what percentage limited period, links an individual to their National of state benefit payments to residents of North East Insurance contributions record which may be relevant Fife constituency were paid into Post Office card to any future claim to contributory benefits or state accounts in each of the last five years. [293977] pension. Anyone who has previously acquired a National Helen Goodman: The figures are not available in the Insurance number but no longer has the right to live, format requested. work or study in the UK does not have access to the benefits system and the use of a National Insurance The following table shows the precise number and number in isolation is not sufficient to obtain benefits. percentage of benefit accounts paid into Post Office card accounts in the North East Fife constituency in each of the last five years. Benefit accounts will have Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work multiple transactions and may include payment of more and Pensions what her most recent estimate is of the than one state benefit. number of people in possession of a national insurance number and working beyond the expiration of their All payment Percentage student visa. [294175] types All POCA paid by POCA

2004 23,900 1,580 7 Jim Knight: The information is not available. 2005 24,120 4,900 20 A National Insurance number is not sufficient to 2006 26,630 5,110 19 demonstrate an entitlement to work. However, where 2007 26,810 4,870 18 the UK Border Agency has evidence that students are 2008 27,310 4,540 17 breaching their immigration conditions, they will investigate Notes: and take appropriate action. This can include further 1. Numbers are rounded to the nearest 10, percentages to the nearest applications for leave to remain in the UK being refused whole per cent. or removal from the UK. 2. Totals may not sum due to rounding. 3. Figures are as at September in each of the five years, 2004 to 2008. 4. Figures refer to payment accounts. Customers with more than one account will be counted for each account. New Deal Schemes: Bedfordshire 5. All benefits and pensions are included but child benefit is administered by HM Revenue and Customs and War Pensions are now administered by MOD. These benefits have therefore been excluded. Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for 6. 2004 was a transitional year in the move from order books to Direct Work and Pensions how many people resident in Payment Mid-Bedfordshire constituency have participated in a Source: DWP, Information Directorate, 100 per cent. data New Deal scheme in each year since 2004. [295416] 1089W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1090W

Recruitment: Finance Information on the cost to the Department of funding for employers to recruit people who have been unemployed for over six months is not available. Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government have pledged £0.5 billion over two (a) Work and Pensions (1) how many employers have years from April 2009 to fund the additional support (b) applied for and secured funding from her Department from six months, which includes the recruitment subsidy to recruit people who have been unemployed for more for employers. than six months in (i) Basingstoke, (ii) Hampshire and (iii) England; [296418] State Retirement Pensions (2) what the cost to her Department has been of funding for employers to recruit people who have been Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work unemployed for over six months since the inception of and Pensions what the change to the number of that funding scheme in (a) Basingstoke, (b) pensioners eligible for a full state pension was following the reduction in the number of qualifying years Hampshire and (c) England. [296421] required. [286336]

Jim Knight [holding answer 29 October 2009]: Angela Eagle: The reduction to 30 in the number of Information on the number of employers applying for qualifying years required for entitlement to a full basic and receiving payments through the recruitment subsidy state pension will only take effect for people reaching is not available in the format requested. Many of the state pension age from 6 April 2010. As a result of this employers claiming the subsidy have outlets throughout and other changes in the 2007 pension reforms we the country, and make their claims on an aggregated estimate that an extra 60,000 people reaching state basis; it is not possible to identify where the individuals pension age in 2010-11 will be entitled to a full basic for whom they are claiming are employed. state pension. On 14 October 2009, official statistics were released Mr. Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Work on the take-up of the Six Month Offer across the UK. and Pensions how much was spent on the state pension This showed that 5,990 jobseeker’s allowance customers as a proportion of gross domestic product in each year had used the recruitment subsidy between April and since 2005. [297409] July this year. Provisional data for August also showed that a further 1,500 jobseeker’s allowance customers Angela Eagle: The information is in the following have used the recruitment subsidy. table:

Expenditure on state pension as a proportion of gross domestic product 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

State pension (£ million) 51,423 53,663 57,594 61,632 Gross domestic product (£ million) 1,270,835 1,346,209 1,417,797 1,435,006 State pension as a proportion of GDP (percentage) 4.0 4.0 4.1 4.3 Notes: Figures are for Great Britain. Figures are rounded to the nearest million and are in cash terms. State pension expenditure for 2008-09 only is provisional outturn, other years is outturn. State pension comprises basic, additional and Category D. Source: GDP figures: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/gdp_deflators.xls State Pension expenditure from DWP benefit expenditure tables, Table 3: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/Alltables_Budget2009_Values.xls

Unemployed: Training Plus staff on 24 April and was also made available via the DWP internal website from 27 April. Interim guidance was made available to Jobcentre Plus staff prior to this, Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work pending final decisions on the process design. and Pensions what guidance her Department has issued to Jobcentre Plus staff on referrals to The written guidance has been supplemented with a (a) employment subsidy vouchers, (b) train to gain, range of other products for Jobcentre Plus staff. (c) training places, (d) volunteering and (e) help for I have arranged for a copy of the guidance issued to self-employment on offer as part of the six month offer support implementation of the six month offer to be to the unemployed; and if she will place in the Library placed in the Library. a copy of such guidance. [271713] Widowed People: Social Security Benefits Jim Knight: Guidance to support the six month offer was made available to Jobcentre Plus staff via the DWP John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work internal website on 23 March 2009. The guidance has and Pensions how many widows and widowers (a) in been constantly reviewed and updated in line with emerging total and (b) under 35 years old have received (i) the policy. bereavement payment, (ii) widowed parents’ allowance Final guidance on the bulk payment process for the and (iii) bereavement allowance in each of the last five recruitment subsidy voucher was issued to Jobcentre years for which figures are available. [295605] 1091W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 1092W

Helen Goodman: The available information is shown in the following tables:

Bereavement benefits by type of bereavement benefit for recipients under age 35, Great Britain Bereavement Widowed parents’ Widowed parents’ As at February each allowance not age Bereavement allowance with allowance without year Total related allowance age related dependants dependants

2005 2,540 1— 1— 2,490 50 2006 2,620 1— 1— 2,580 50 2007 2,600 1— 1— 2,560 30 2008 2,600 1— 1— 2,570 30 2009 2,620 1— 1— 2,610 30

Bereavement benefits by type of bereavement benefit for recipients of all ages, Great Britain. Bereavement Widowed parents’ Widowed parents’ As at February each allowance not age Bereavement allowance with allowance without year Total related allowance age related dependants dependants

2005 53,320 13,430 8,970 30,450 480 2006 56,450 13,440 8,530 34,040 440 2007 58,190 12,650 8,160 36,980 400 2008 58,930 11,570 7,570 39,430 370 2009 60,720 11,450 7,280 41,660 330 1 Nil or negligible. Notes: 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10; some additional disclosure control has also been applied. 2. Totals may not sum due to rounding. 3. ‘Widowed parents’ allowance without dependants’ includes women who were pregnant when widowed. Source: DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 4 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 839 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Devolution...... 848 Paramilitary Activities ...... 840 Equality Commission...... 845 Saville Inquiry...... 839 Historical Inquiries ...... 846 Local Government Reorganisation ...... 847 Loyalist Decommissioning...... 846 PRIME MINISTER ...... 848 Loyalist Paramilitaries ...... 844 Engagements...... 848 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 4 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 41WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 45WS Service Children’s Education (Key Targets Independent Monitoring Commission ...... 45WS 2009-10) ...... 41WS HEALTH...... 42WS Regulation of Social Care ...... 42WS TRANSPORT ...... 45WS Special Grant Funding 2010-11 HOME DEPARTMENT...... 43WS (National Bus Concession)...... 45WS Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000...... 43WS LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 44WS Committee on Standards in Public Life WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 46WS (MPs’ Expenses and Allowances)...... 44WS State Pension and Pension Credit...... 46WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 4 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. Equitable Life (Hendon)...... 3P —continued Equitable Life (Redbridge)...... 3P Equitable Life (Wantage) ...... 4P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 4 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1071W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Business Council for Britain...... 1071W continued Business: Government Assistance ...... 1071W Fire Services: Lancashire...... 1061W Companies Act 2006 ...... 1072W Homelessness...... 1062W Companies: Complaints...... 1072W Housing ...... 1062W Copyright: Internet ...... 1072W Housing Associations: Insurance ...... 1067W Departmental Manpower...... 1074W Housing: Construction...... 1068W Further Education ...... 1074W Housing: Low Incomes ...... 1069W Internet ...... 1074W Local Government: Stress ...... 1069W Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries...... 1075W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 1069W Video Games...... 1075W Social Rented Housing...... 1070W Tenancy Deposit Solutions ...... 1070W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 1075W Working Neighbourhoods Fund ...... 1071W Departmental Marketing ...... 1075W GCE A-Level: Disadvantaged...... 1075W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 996W Sixth Form Education: Finance ...... 1076W English Heritage: Internet...... 996W Teachers TV: Finance...... 1076W Sport England: Internet ...... 997W UK Film Council: Internet ...... 998W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1060W World Heritage Sites ...... 998W Council Housing...... 1060W Economic Situation...... 1060W DEFENCE...... 987W European Regional Development Fund...... 1061W Armed Forces: Cadets...... 987W Fire Services: Fareham...... 1061W Armed Forces: Medical Services ...... 988W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Defence: Scotland ...... 988W Demonstrations: Parliament Square ...... 1052W Departmental Homeworking ...... 990W Hakluyt...... 1053W HMS Endurance...... 991W Illegal Immigrants...... 1053W Military Aircraft: Gibraltar ...... 991W Immigration: Pakistan and Abu Dhabi ...... 1053W Party Conferences...... 1053W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1014W Police Community Support Officers...... 1054W Biofuels...... 1014W Police: Pay...... 1054W Climate Change: EU Action ...... 1014W Proceeds of Crime...... 1054W Departmental Recruitment ...... 1015W Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000...... 1059W Energy: Companies...... 1015W Renewable Energy...... 1015W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 987W Renewable Energy: EC Law ...... 1015W Housing: Energy ...... 987W Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation...... 1016W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1038W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL CDC ...... 1038W AFFAIRS...... 1041W Tanzania: Overseas Aid...... 1038W Animal Welfare Act 2006 ...... 1041W Tanzania: Politics and Government ...... 1039W Animal Welfare: Circuses...... 1042W Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 ...... 1042W Departmental Data Protection...... 1044W JUSTICE...... 1016W Dogs: Tagging...... 1044W Coroner Service ...... 1016W Floods: West Midlands ...... 1045W Mentally Disturbed Offenders ...... 1017W River Trent: Pollution ...... 1045W National Archives ...... 1021W Rural Payments Agency: Data Protection ...... 1047W National Archives: Pay...... 1022W Offences Against Children: Prosecutions ...... 1022W Office of the Public Guardian...... 1023W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 1009W Prisoners Release ...... 1023W Afghanistan: Detainees...... 1009W Secure Accommodation: Young Offender Africa: Armed Conflict ...... 1010W Institutions ...... 1024W Burma...... 1010W Young Offenders ...... 1026W Colombia: Foreign Relations ...... 1010W Young People: Remand in Custody...... 1025W Departmental Databases...... 1011W Honduras: Politics and Government ...... 1011W Kosovo: Politics and Government...... 1011W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1039W Pakistan: Politics and Government ...... 1012W Christmas...... 1040W Pakistan: Religious Freedom...... 1012W Devolution...... 1039W Shaker Aamer ...... 1013W Dissident Republicans...... 1039W Sri Lanka: Internally Displaced Persons ...... 1013W Firearms: Licensing ...... 1040W Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 1014W Fireworks: Death ...... 1040W Local Government Reorganisation ...... 1040W HEALTH...... 1027W Prisoner Release...... 1039W Abortion ...... 1027W Terrorism: Victims ...... 1041W Accident and Emergency Departments: Safety ...... 1027W Airedale Hospital: Cancer...... 1028W OLYMPICS ...... 991W Blackburn Royal Infirmary: PFI ...... 1028W Departmental Postal Services...... 991W Cancer: Health Services ...... 1028W Olympic Delivery Authority: Manpower...... 991W Dental Services ...... 1030W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 992W Departmental Fraud ...... 1031W Olympic Games 2012: Essex...... 992W Departmental Homeworking ...... 1031W Olympic Games 2012: Facilities ...... 993W Departmental Internet ...... 1031W Olympic Games 2012: Finance...... 993W East Kent Hospitals NHS Trust...... 1031W Olympic Games 2012: Gun Sports ...... 993W Genetically Modified Organisms: Food ...... 1032W Olympic Games 2012: Plants ...... 994W Health Professions: Training ...... 1032W Olympic Games 2012: Public Bodies...... 994W Health: Screening...... 1033W Olympic Games 2012: Religious Practice ...... 996W Health Services: Lancashire ...... 1033W Hydrotherapy Pools ...... 1034W TRANSPORT ...... 998W Mental Health Services: Young People...... 1034W Air Transport Users’ Council...... 998W NHS: Sick Leave...... 1035W Aviation ...... 998W NHS: Training ...... 1035W Aviation: Safety...... 999W Nurses: Students ...... 1035W Dartford-Thurrock Crossing: Tolls ...... 999W Pain...... 1035W Departmental Postal Services...... 999W Patients’ Rights ...... 1036W Driving: Working Hours ...... 1000W Prostate Cancer: Health Services...... 1036W Finsbury Park Station...... 1000W Swine Flu: Vaccination ...... 1037W Railway Stations: Disabled...... 1001W Tuberculosis: Health Services...... 1037W Railway Stations: Passengers...... 1001W Railways: Contract Cleaning...... 1001W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 1050W Railways: Electrification ...... 1002W Borders: Personal Records ...... 1050W Railways: Franchises ...... 1002W Community Policing ...... 1051W Railways: Penalty Fares...... 1003W Crime: Children ...... 1051W South London Railway Line ...... 1003W Crime: Norwich ...... 1052W West Coast Railway Line: Speed Limits ...... 1004W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 1005W WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Business: Taxation ...... 1005W Council Tax: Housing Benefit ...... 1078W Child Care Vouchers ...... 1005W Departmental Telephone Services ...... 1079W Child Trust Fund: Expenditure ...... 1005W Employment and Support Allowance: Economic Growth...... 1005W Bedfordshire ...... 1080W Gold and Foreign Exchange Reserves ...... 1006W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 1080W Inflation...... 1006W Future Jobs Fund...... 1081W Northern Rock...... 1006W Future Jobs Fund: Scotland...... 1082W Northern Rock: Compensation...... 1006W Housing Benefit ...... 1082W Presbyterian Mutual Society ...... 1007W Housing Benefit: St. Albans...... 1083W Taxation: Holiday Accommodation...... 1007W Industrial Health and Safety: Sellafield...... 1084W Taxation: South West...... 1008W Jobcentre Plus ...... 1084W Welfare Tax Credits...... 1009W Jobcentre Plus: Manpower ...... 1084W Jobcentre Plus: Standards ...... 1085W WALES...... 1004W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 1085W Departmental Homeworking ...... 1004W Means Tested Benefits...... 1086W Members: Correspondence ...... 1086W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 1004W National Insurance: Foreign Workers ...... 1086W Departmental Procurement...... 1004W New Deal Schemes: Bedfordshire...... 1087W Post Office Card Account: Fife ...... 1088W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1077W Recruitment: Finance...... 1089W Bereavement Grants: Nurses...... 1077W State Retirement Pensions...... 1090W Child Maintenance and Enforcement Unemployed: Training ...... 1089W Commission: Correspondence ...... 1077W Widowed People: Social Security Benefits...... 1090W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 4 November 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 839] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 859]

MPs’ Expenses and Allowances [Col. 860] Statement—(Ms Harman)

Food Labelling (Nutrition and Health) [Col. 870] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Helen Southworth)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill [Col. 873] Further considered in Committee (Second allotted day)

Petitions [Col. 961]

Pernicious Anaemia [Col. 963] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Thalidomide [Col. 241WH] Sustainable Housing (Blackpool) [Col. 263WH] Probation Service [Col. 272WH] Pupil Funding (Haringey) [Col. 294WH] Selective Licensing Schemes [Col. 301WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 41WS]

Petitions [Col. 3P]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 987W] [see index inside back page]