W M U Centennial Oral History Collection: Oral histories of Western Michigan University alu mni, f a c ult y, st a ff, and friends collected 1987-2003 for the W M U Centenni al i n 2 0 0 3. T his c oll e cti o n is p art of t h e l ar g er di git al c oll e cti o n, Or al Hist ori es at Western Michigan University, hosted by W M U Librari es.

Intervie wee: Gabier, Russell L. ( Russell Louis), 192 7- 2 0 1 8

Intervie wer: Carlson, Le wis H.

D ate(s): 1 9 9 0- 1 1- 0 8

L o c ati o n: Kala mazoo ( Mich.)

Russell Gabier. Photograph fro m U niversity Arc hives.

Please n ote: These recordings and transcriptions, w hic h have preserve d i n t heir ori gi nal u naltere d state, often represent student work and may contain inaccuracies an d ty pogra phical errors.

Preferre d citati o n: Oral history intervie w with Russell Ga bier, Nove m ber 8, 1 9 9 0, b y L e wis H. C arls o n, p a g e #, W M U Centennial Oral History Collection, Western Mic hi g a n U ni v ersit y Ar c hi v es. O nli n e: htt p:// ... ( a c c ess e d [ d at e]).

Co pyright © 2019 Western Michigan University, Kala m az o o, Mi c hi g a n. All ri g hts r es er v e d. T h e di git al v ersi o n is a v ail a bl e f or e d u c ati o n al us e u n d er ‘F air Us e’ g ui d eli n es. F or a d diti o n al p er missi o n a n d further infor mation contact the W M U Archives, Western Michigan University, Kala mazoo, MI 49008: w mich.edu/library/contact

Western Michigan University

Western Michigan University Archives, Charles C. an d Lynn L. Zhang Legacy Collections Center, 1650 Oakland Drive, Kala mazoo, MI 49008-5307. (269) 3 8 7- 8 4 9 0 Russ Gabier long time administrator at Western Michigan University and a former student and track and field star at Western. This was recorded on November 8, 1990 by Lew Carlson in

Kalamazoo, Michigan

Lew: Let me start out by asking of you when you were born, where you were born and your parents

Russ: I was born in Lansing, MI the first of October 1927 to Leo and Emily Gabier.

Lew: What did you father do?

Russ: Well, my father was a farmer and as the years went on during the depression years he did a number of things as most of the farm boys in that part of the country which is up my Mesick

Michigan just north of Cadillac, they would go to the cities to look for work during the winter and of course return to work on the farms during the summer.

Lew: The soil is not great in Mesick, except for mushrooms

Russ: You absolutely correct, there, there are a few farms, they are patches which you probably well understand in that part of the country, you can go down the road five miles and find a decent farm, of maybe 80 acres but everything else around would be poor. But my grandfather was one of the old loggers on the Manistee River and he was an emigrant, his father and his brothers from_

France, and he worked on the river as a logger for a period, a number of years and actually bought land right next the Manistee river, not half a mile away and cleared it and built his home and was a farmer, and my father then grew up on the farm and as he became older he, as I say during the depression years, he went to Detroit, but he came back during the war and after he had worked in the aircraft factories and in Detroit and Muskegon, and eventually ended up in Cadillac working for the new hydro machinery company there

Lew: What was your mother's

Gabier: Her name was Emiline Edwards and in fact her family lives in Mesick and that is where I spent the first part of my life there, up to the 10th grade and Mesick celebrated its lOOth anniversary this summer and the Edwards family some still lives there, in fact she has a sister-in- law who is still living there at 95 and others

Lew: So you went to the Mesick school system through the 10th grade

Gabi er: 10th grade and from Mesick, my parents moved to Cadillac and I finished the junior and senior years at Cadillac high school and graduated there, and my parents lived basically for the rest of their lives, I have one brother also graduated from Cadillac high school

Lew: and you started running trace in Mesick

Gabier: It was interest from that standpoint, No, they didn't have track at Mesick at that time, but when I went to Cadillac since growing up in Mesick I spent most of my time in the woods hunting, fishing and that kind of thing, and I always ran, and when I went to Cadillac, I started the junior year and in the fall the in the gym class the man who was teaching gym class was also a former runner, a track man from Central Michigan University he was teaching there, a fellow by the name of Lynn Kohrman, and he had the boys gyms class one morning run out from Cadillac high school, and it was about 2 miles up through the town there, and came back, and well in that class there was a another boy by the name of Norm Sowels and Norm had taken 3rd place at the state high school track meet in Lansing the previous year, and he was considered the best miler in that part of the country and when we ran in that morning from the phy.ed. class I followed him and because I was enjoyed running, and as it turned out I came in, I came back to the school, considerably ahead of Norm, so right away some of the kids, and also the gym teacher who, as it turned out, became out became the track coach the following year on a substitute basis, and he asked me to go out for track in the spring just because of that, and I knew nothing really about track

Lew: that was the first time that you realized ran faster than most kids

Gabier: For at least longer distances, right. That's probably true, because I did go out that spring and the urging of some of my buddies and the then track coach, and didn't lose a race. Won every race that I ran that year and went to the State Championship in Class B final, I think 1945

Lew: So you were a junior

Gabier: I was a junior, then I went on during the senior year and the same thing, I didn't lose a race throughout the year, I went to the state meet, and took second place, and I was beaten by a fellow by the name of George Hall from Fenton High School, who later came to Western in the last five yards and I had beaten him the previous year, that first year that I had ran as a junior, he was leading the race going into the final curve, coming off the curve, and I caught him and passed him just about five yards before the finish line, so I won that way and then the next year he beat me. A follow -up to that though which is always my favorite story, is that following high school I enlisted in the army and spent two years in Japan, and when I came back, because I had been offered, had offers of scholarships at the University of Michigan and Michigan University at that time, but when I came back there was a fellow up at Cadillac by the name of Jack Comp who had come to Western B-12 program during the war, and he was a basketball enthusiast, he played basketball himself and was always speaking of Buck Read and Western basketball, well anyway,

Jack encouraged me to come to Western, and so went I got out of the army in December, another fellow and I drove from Cadillac to Kalamazoo and registered at Western and that is kind of interesting story, but anyway I started Western then in February, because that was the semester system. And the first thing that I did was go out for track, and the first thing that I discovered when I got down to the trace, because I met Tonner Smith, and Tonner talked to me about it, and autographed a little book that he had written in track and field, but at the time Clayton Moss was the track coach and went down to see Clayton, and told him that I wanted to run in track and I was given equipment, and went on the track and the first person I ran into was George Howell, the fellow that I had the competition with, had raced previously, well the thing, George at that point had was bigger and huskier, and wasn't, I didn't feel he was not in trim at that point, he was still running but I am not sure why, buy anyway, in our first inter-squad meet, I was able to beat him again and continued my running

Lew: What kind of time, what was your best time in high school

Gabier: In high school is was 438. 7

Lew: Did you run the half mile

Gabier: No, I never ran, because in high school in those days if you ran the mile you could not run anything else other than a leg and the state record, I believe at that time was 428. So it was good time at that point, in fact the record that I set that record, and the next year I think I ran 437 at the state meet, the year I took second, but it was a high school at Cadillac which stood, I think for

40 years, just about 3 or 4 years ago I believe, a runner, a miler up at Cadillac broke the record because I was told about it and I was also invited to come up and be inducted in their Hall of Fame that they have at the high school, but I know the record stood for a long time. It was many years

Lew: So you came down here in the spring of 48

Gabier: Yes, Absolutely, and graduated in February of 52.

Lew: Tell me about you impression of Tonner Smith, I know that you have known him for so long, but I mean when you first saw him

Gabier: I first saw Tonner as a counselor, in fact he was my adviser when I started at Western, and at that time, and the story was, that Tonner was going blind because of an eye disease or something, and I just vaguely remember that, and I do remember that he sat down in a very heavy scroll in Tonner hand wrote my slip out in terms of the courses that I should be taking my first semester and we talked about track some, he had this little book that I had mentioned earlier, he autographed a book, and gave it to me, and you know it was my first exposure to a university person really, in fact I think Tonner may have been possibly the first person I talked to at Western.

But he was in the old health services building on East Campus, and I can remember very clearly, and I thought he was a great guy of course, and but I didn't have a lot of contact with Tonner after that, other than as I entered the track program at Western and so-called career in running at Western

Tonner often then talked to me about what was happening and in the races and etc.

Lew: Was it because of this suppose disease that he retired from being track coach, he was still young

Gabier: I am not sure, Lew, but I think that may have been some of that in his decision to retire, or some concern about his health, and as I say, other than that I really don't know

Lew: His health is still pretty good

Gabier: Yes, I still happened to be one that still goes over to Lewie, Lew: OK, I have gone over there a couple of times, we video taped all

Gabier: Is that right

Lew: it was for archives

Gabier: I have to tell you, I don't tell everyone this, but I go to their home almost every noon, when I don't have a luncheon, but anyway, Tonner still shows up there along with John Gill, but

Lew: Tonner is a very good man, drawl way, etc., I was wondering what his way was as a young man, of course you were not as young as the average freshmen when you came here

Gabier: No, I was a couple of years older. Well Tonner was, I don't remember that he was anything other than he was pretty business like, we did talk about althetics, but it was at a time during those years, Tonner, John Gill, Mike Gray, Tom Slaughter, and Charlie Mare were the coaches, and as an aspirating athletic and college student and all, I looked up to those men and I thought very highly of all of them, I can remember being impressed by various things that they did, for examples, John Gill and Charlie Marr, particularly as I remember, and I think Tom

Slaughter, regularly taught their courses in, and they were dressed in navy blue, or blue pin- stripped suits, and particularly now very neat they were in the classroom, that is something that really impressed, and because you know, coming out of high school, or that was not necessarily the way people dressed and you know always a shirt and tie, and so those people impressed me and of course I immediately began to association with Clayton Moss, who I feel today and always have felt perhaps the most highly principled man I have ever met.

Lew: Tell me a little bit more about Clayton Hess, do one has talked about him

Gabier: Well, that's, I would say in some ways that's unfortunate, because\

Lew: Not because they did not want to because

Gabier: You would hear that from men that, and I want to tell you a story about Clayton from those people who function either as athletics or students under Clayton. Clayton was just as I indicated, a highly principled man who I felt during those years was really the aptety of what a coach ought to be, and that is he was as interested in this was not just verbiage, he was interested in your education, he felt that , and he handled his athletics in such as way that their education at the university and what they learned, and etc., was equally important to their athletic endeavors, while athletics was important, nevertheless you were there to get an education, and Clayton was a taskmaster, and I tell you two examples at that time Ed Taylor who was perhaps, up until that point, greatest all around athletic that Western had ever had, he was a black man, Ed at one time held five of the records that track records in the high jump, the low hurdle, the high hurdles, I think the broad jump, and he also Ed was at his prime at the time when Harrison Diller, Baldwin

Wallace was a great start, OK, if it had not been for Harrison Diller, at that time, Ed.Taylor would have won many of those races in Madison Square Garden, anyway, Ed. was at Western, he was older than some of the others, and he was a great star, in a course titled Track Techniques,

Clayton gave Ed a "C" as I remember, and basically simply because Ed while he was a great athletic really had not done his homework in the course, he was given a C. Well, a lot of the athletic, got a charge out of that because here was this great star, and Clayton would take Ed all over the country, they went to the relay, they went to Madison Square Garden, the two of them would travel together, so they were very close, but nevertheless, if that's they way to handled the course. But, a more interesting story

Lew: Before you go on to a more interesting story, is Ed Taylor still alive

Gabier: No, he died of a blood disease in I think Henry Ford, the veterans hospital in Dearborn a number of years ago, and I another fellow and I went over to see him, I don't what the disease was it was a cancer type, whether it was a disease that black men have,

Lew: Sickle cell anemia

Gabier: I think that is what is was, anyway

Lew: Did he go on to be a educator, then

Gabier: I am not sure what Ed did, he was married, as I say, because he was older than the rest of us, he was married and had I think one or two children at the time he was at Western because he came out of the service. He went to Detroit, I believe, I am not sure what he did

Lew: That is interesting because the hurdler who defeated Harris at that time also went to Western and transferred to Northwestern, Bill Porter Gabier: Oh, is that right, I guess, I have to remember that you would know much of this so it is easy to relate because as I talk about it, I am not always sure

Lew: Ed Taylor is do not know

Gabier: Well if you were to go back over, or gone to the old field house on Oakland drive, as I say, when I entered Western Ed Taylor was one that board, I think, I am positive it was five different records that he was involved in. We went to the team, and not the full team, a fair number of the team ran a meet and I believe it may have been at Marquette University one time and apparently we must have driven to Ludington and then left our cars and went across on the boat to Milwaukee, and had the meet, and then came back and I remember getting on the, as I recall we were on the boat at night after the meet, and spent most of the evening coming across the lake so we arrived, and it was Ludington early in the morning, and if I am not mistaken, I think it was a Sunday morning, we were hungry, there were probably 10 or 15 of us on that particular trip, and so the first thing that after we got into the automobiles that Clayton Moss, the coach, he took us to this restaurant in Ludington that was open, and I don't know the name of it, and I can't even tell you where it was, I think it was a cafeteria, I know that it was a cafeteria line that you walked through, we started on through the line, and there were probably half dozen of the team all white who received their trays and got their breakfast and had gone over to the tables, by that time Ed

Taylor came the line, started, there may have been more than a dozen of us, I am not sure, but there were quite a number of us, and when Ed got into the line, the fellow at the counter, said that he would not serve him, and the word to Clayton standing there, I am not sure how that came about, I know what the results were, and Clayton went to the owner, whoever it was, and spoke to him about what situation was, the problem, well anyway as it turned out this fellow simply would not serve him because he was black, Clayton went down the line he took every one of us, told us to leave the trays, some of the trays were on the counter, some had been over to the table, and he pulled us all out. We all left, got into the cars, we didn't think about it at that point other than, Clayton the coach said that's it, and so we were all willing to do it. But I remember we got out and got into those cars and I am not sure how long it was, but we had to drive quite a ways that we went to Lansing to East Lansing to run in the Michigan State relays and my father came down from Cadillac with the Superintendent of Schools and my old track coach to see me run at the Michigan State Relays because I again was the top miler in the Mid-American conference during that period and I remember, and this was before the meet in the evening we were in the union at MSU and my dad and this man by the name of Kohrman and Bernie Shamplen,

Superintendent of Schools came in the Union and they, and our track team were all in the lounge there, so I was introducing people, Clayton, coach and some of the track buddies to my father and the other as well, and I introduced Ed Taylor to my dad, and Ed shook hands with my dad, well we went on the meet and everything and the next time that I returned home, back to Cadillac, and I not sure for what, but on a week-end, my dad and I were talking about the meet, and my dad made the point in telling me, he said "Russ, that was really interesting, Do you know that is the first time that I ever touched a black person, and my dad had worked in the factories in Detroit where were blacks segregated on the line, and things of that nature, but that was quite an experience for him and we used to then talk about the problems and the issues of racism that today we refer to, and at that time, he was open minded about it, and he was very impressed, and it was impressed about the fact that I travelled across the country with a black man, that we would room together and things of that nature and he had been his childhood and of course while he was growing up, you know, negroes were negroes and it was just different ball games in those days

Lew: Of course, there were not many blacks in Mescik, or Cadillac, of course Cadillac is not that far away from Idlewild where there were

Gabier: No, but I don't think Lew during the years that I was at Cadillac, there were more than one black family, if that in the district, and I am not sure that there is today. All the years that I grew up, why the first 10 years

Lew: Youare

Gabier: No, because I am quite familiar with Baldwin, the years that I was growing up in Mescik there was a black family that lived down my Harrietta which is a little closer to Baldwin, whose kids came to Mescik to the Mescik schools and they were the only black family that I knew of, because during those years that was the only family and when I went to Cadillac there were not

Lew: Tell me a little about your track career, you were the leading miler, take me through your progressive of your running at Western and your improvement and etc.

Gabier: You always enjoy talking about your

Lew: Don't be modest

Gabier: I owe, really so much to my athletic experiences and I won't take the time to do that, because I could go back to the beginning and I could almost illustrate almost every step in my career as how it started with athletics through until I ended up at the University, but when I came to Western and started running, first of all, when I left high school, I went into the service and ran in the all-Japan, all-pacific in Japan when I was in Japan at that time, it had to 1946 and 1947 and was one mile and the two mile for the American forces, however in the two races that I ran in Nile

Kennicks stadium in Tokyo which had been built for the Olympics, I was beaten in both instances by two Australians who names I can't remember, of course, but I have a picture in my clippings somewhere, so I did run in service some, because it was possible to do that and I ended up in

Okinawa, and Tokyo and ran in Seoul meet, when I came back to Kalamazoo, to the states,started

Western , I ran the mile

Lew: Did you continue to improve your times when you were in service?

Gabier: Yes, while I can't, well in the service we ran 1500 meters, and at that time it was very foreign to me, in fact, even today I have difficulty, because a miler in those days and the ways we were trained, the way I trained, and the way they trained us, you know to pace ourselves, you know it was definitely in the metric system, not the metric system, in was in yards, etc. the standard mile, one mile and so on. and so you pace yourself accordingly by two 20, by two- quarters, by six 60s, by 80s and so on, so it was difficult, but anyway, when I came back here and we started running, I started at Western, I began to improve my times continuously because, then under the training, or rather the coaching of a person who was a track coach, and did really move the time, my fastest time for a mile, I believe was a 4.19 at the Kansas relay, and it was in a relay race, I ran a couple of times that were faster than that, but they were not, according to Clayton, they were timed faster, I think one was at the Knights Columbus meet in Cleveland, Ohio where I recall, at that time there were was a Swedish distance runner by the name of Johanneson and I have forgotten which school he was with, but he was favored to win the two mile that night and I, the two of us tied for second place, and another two miler, whose name I have forgotten won the race that night. But my best distance, I think was cross-country, a four mile, and at that time we ran a four mile, and the longer the distance the better, then when I

Lew: I was not the 5000 meters

Gabier: No, we were strictly still running the 4 miles in college and a lot of three miles races and occasionally a three mile. But it was difficult too, because your ran on all cross-country courses, they vary, so you know you could run, for example, I know I think it was in 1949, I won the mid-American cross-country championship at 21 minutes and some seconds and that was on a course at Miami University, at Oxford Ohio, which had a lot of hills in it, it was one of the tough races that I ever ran because I was chased the entire distance, it was an interesting, by the previous distance champion from Miami University, and I am trying to think of his name, and right now it escapes me, Clayton Moss would know, everyone knew him at that time, anyway he and a Miami cross-country team came to Western about two weeks prior to the Mid-American championship and this fellow Mike Segolie and another runner by the name of Cash Powell were having good times and I was expected to have a real race with him, well they came here and I beat them both by

200 yards and it wasn't, and I was having that kind of experience with every one that I was running, so two weeks later I went to Miami on their course and I expected at that time that I probably would win the race and as we started the race, the first time I knew I had right on my shoulders was Mike, he was a senior at that time, the guy that I was speaking of that his name is still bothering me, but I know his first name was Mike, he stayed right on by shoulder for the entire four miles, I could not shake him, and but there was a hill that we had to negotiate about a quarter of a mile from the finish and on the last part of the race, and I managed to pull away, and was able to beat him by about 10 yards, that is the picture that is up at the Field house, where I am finishing, but I started to say that the times were always varied, you really didn't know Lew: Did you run any 5000 meters on trace

Gabier: No, we never did, I ran the longest distance on the track was the two mile

Lew: Did you give any consideration in '52 to try out for the Olympics

Gabier: I didn't, that was the end of my running at Western, I was senior I was married just prior to graduation, and so at that point I was basically headed

Lew: It occurs to me that the 5000 or even the 10,000 would have been ideal for you

Gabier: Well, Lew things, there are a lot of things now as I look back at this, and that is fun reminiscing because the things that I wanted to say about distance running that I really have never discussed with anyone that is really very familiar with it, but, I have to tell you that the way we were trained at that point, high school kids today run more distance in their training routines than we were running at the college level, in fact, Western's cross-country runners and their distance runners today will probably run more miles in two days up there during a week leading up to the races, than we were allowed to run in the entire week. I will give you an example, in high school, because in those days they were fearful that you would become stale, they talked about running to much and becoming stale than anything else, in high school I ran a mile and a half on Monday, on

Tuesday I would run a mile that's it, plus the warmup, and on Wednesday we would run a half mile, on Thursday we would take the day off, and Friday would be the meet, and that's as much training as we did. Well, we came to Western and at that time I think Clayton was on top of it, he was doing the same thing that most all the runners were doing, first of all, you never ran on the roads, there was no road racing at that time, road racing pavement, etc. is something that has just come about in the last 20 years because it was bad for those legs, and the distances that we ran, we rarely ran more than maybe 5-6 miles in a training session, once again, distance runners today will run about 5-1-15 miles.

Lew: But that helps explain that we have done very poorly in the 5 and 10000 meters up to that time and then we have had a brief opening, I have interviewed Bob_, I am sure you know from

Miami, and of course he trained_ _ from Hungary who used a brutal system

Gabier: Well, I think the man who started that was_, Emo_ was really the first runner Lew: _was his coach, then he came over here

Gabier: Maybe that was it, because in fact I read a story about _just recently.

Lew: Sports Illustrated

Gabier: But he was the first one in modern times that did the kind of training that runners eventually began to do

Lew: We got him, and he trained Max_, do you remember

Gabi er: Oh, yes, you never know,

Lew: Bob_, he had those guys out in Los Angeles, Bob _ was in service then

Gabier: You see, at that time the top runner in the country in about the time I was finishing was

Don_,Don

Lew: Wes,

Gabier: No Wes was later, he followed right after_ because I remember, I think _had won something like 52 mile races in a row, he was_ champion, you know from Wisconsin, but anyway, back to the kind of thing we were doing, as we

Lew: Tell me before I forget what size you were, how tall, what did you weigh when you were running

Gabier: I was 5"8 1/2", and during the peck of the season, or by the end of the season I normally weighted 138, I would usually start the season, and that's another thing, we were told not to run all summer long, so we did not run during the summer, and we would start, the distance runners would start maybe in August, and but I usually started at 145 and usually end up the season at 138.

Lew: and of course no weights whatsoever

Gabier: No, oh no, and you were always dealing with foot problems, because the shoes we were using, you know just a different thing, and of course when I was running at Western I was on the track which was at that time cinders and inside the field, the football field, the one thing that probably best experience and the one that I remember was I broke All Peddler's two mile record at

Western which had been established for a number of years and I do remember that one pretty clearly because it was on a night when we had a triangular meet against Loyola of Chicago and another school, and Clayton, I had been moving my times up because the two mile had become sort of a specialty and we looked at the record, I think the two mile record at that time held by

Peddler was 9.41, and we had this meet coming up it was in April or in May, and I remember going down to the field in the afternoon and I had been in the library and I had figured out every

220, what the time should be, and I had also shared this with Clayton, so I knew if I was going to break the record, and I was aiming for a 9.38, I had no idea ifl could run that, because I had not run that fast until that point, which today is not fast at all, but at that time it was, so we knew what each 220 had to be each quarter, and I remember coming around on the first 220 and he gave me the time and I was, I think one or two seconds slower than what the time should have been 28 or what ever it was, but by the time I got to the first quarter I was on schedule and by that time there was anyone near me, so I was not pushed at all, but I think the record, I broke the record that night, I ran 9.38.7 I believe it was, so that was a memorably experience, because I can remember afterwards, it was on a weekend and I was going back up home, and I was really, I could not wait to get home and tell my Dad about it.

Lew: Did you run in any NCAA or AAU

Gabier: I ran in the NCAA cross-country championship in East Lansing in the, I think it was the sophomore year, and that was the year I was having my best year in cross-country, because I set a record in every meet I ran for the year, as I recall, and I was favored to do well at NCAA and thought that I would do well, didn't expect to win, but I though I would do well and they held that on a Monday after Thanksgiving and I went home for Thanksgiving, to Cadillac, and over that weekend they had this tremendous snow storm and so when we got back and I ended up when we went to East Lansing, I am not sure they had plowed the course and I am not sure if you know where it was run, but it was down, it started just north of Jensen fieldhouse on I think the baseball diamond, and so they plowed out about a hundred yards of snow, because the snow was probably about 2 feet on the level, and it was plowed, it sort of funneled down to one spot at the end of this football field, and had to run about 200 yards and then you had went out on the course and the rest of the course was plowed about 4 feet wide, it was just on a path. And I can remember we got on the starting line and when the gun went off there was a mad dash, believe me, to get to the end of that field so that you could get onto the course, and I arrived at the end just about everyone else, of course you were also concerned about your pace, and I was probably, I think there were over

200, and I was probably in a mob of about 100, by the time we got there, I don't know, I do know that Don Black, who I think was from Rhode Island won it, and I finished 25th, but I can remember running the entire race trying to either pass someone, and you had to get out into the snow, and I was disappointed, because I really felt that my time were just, that I felt that I would perhaps be in the top ten, but that was my place. And I ran in others, I think that was the year I won the Central collegial championship and also Mid-American and I can't think of what else, there were some others meets that I ran in, one other interesting experience that I had was running at Wheaton and Gill Dodds a former world record holder for the state, and he had been one of my heros so to speak, because he had just, he was still doing some running at that time, and I remember we ran either 3 or 3 1/2 on his course with his team, and I won it and I ran one of the best three miles, I can't tell you for sure exactly what it was, but it was within 15 minutes, I think the course was 3 1/2, but it was one of the best races I ever ran, but I was pleased because I was able to talk to Dodds and wanted to do well for this former great runner.

Lew: What was your major at Western

Gabier: I majored in Phy.Ed., and I had a minor in Science and Biology

Lew: Was the cross-country course over where the golf course was?

Gabier: the course that we ran out meets on started on the track in Waldo stadium and we would circle the track, in fact we would go across the baseball diamond, up behind the baseball stands there, there was a path that we would go through, in fact that brings us another story, and we would go out and through along the fence along what is now Stadium drive, and then we would go clear out to Winchell out through an apple orchard and back, and when we came back, we came back another spot, we would not come through the ball diamond, we would come down behind the ball diamond and behind the stands there and then we had to enter a gate which I think was on the west end of the field and down side of the hill and onto the track and finish that way. And I was running a meet, I am not sure which school it was, but I had build up a lead and by the way we would always start the meet just before half time so you could finish during the half of the football game, and everyone would see us circle the track and would not see us again until we came in, but anyway I had build up a lead and I probably had 200 yards between the closest guy to me, corning back and I got to the gate where we were to enter to stadium, and they had locked the gate. And there was one of the security policemen there, and I started shaking and hollering at him, because all I could think of was, they are going to catch me right at the end here, and I was just about to go across the tennis courts behind the stadium and go around and try to enter that way and the fellow finally got the idea what was happened, and he did come over and open the gate and

I managed to get in and still get to the finish line before the others, but that happens to be another one

Lew: Do you remember a runner from Central Michigan by Bob Garrett

Gabier: No, the runner from Central Michigan was Russ Postmas, he was their star at that time, in fact he had been running well, I think he started at Grand Rapids, yes he was good runner and he ran at Grand Rapids Junior College and went to Central and I remember going there I think in a meet against Central and he was running and I knew that he was going to be my competitor but

Lew: He had remember you Bob Garrett, he would have been 2 or 3 years behind you, because he also ran against

Gabier: OK, OK, I guess maybe I do know him, yes that name

Lew: he was assistant superintendent of schools in Ludington, and now he sells real estate, we just bought a condo from him in Ludington, I happened to mention your name and Tom Coyne name and he used to run against Tom, he probably was about a freshman or sophomore when you were a senior.

Gabier: Yes, that.now that you mention the name, the big names at that time when I was running at the other schools were Jack D_, at MSU, he was a quarter-miler and a half miler, a fellow by the name of Mat, he was a great miler, and at that time Karl_ was the track coach, and had these great MSU track teams, and then Lew: Did you ever regret not going there?

Gabier: I never really thought about that, but that does bring up another one and I can tell you about, when I was about a junior, maybe a sophomore, that was probably my best year, because he had a couple of injuries, I missed one season, so I was doing well wherever we went, Michigan go his phenomenal freshman that we heard about and we knew that he had been, Michigan did not run competitively in cross-country except I think in the big ten meet, and as I recall at that time, I think it was the only meet that they would enter a team in Don Cannon and this fellows name was

Don McQuinn, well we heard about Don McQuinn, and we heard about him as a freshman, I think he was a freshman at that point, if not he was a sophomore, won the big ten cross-country championship, and that's the only time anyone heard he was a great, he was a Canadian, well first thing I know Clayton and Don Cannon got together and decided it would be good for McQuinn and I to have a time trial together, and so one Saturday, I forgot just when it was, Clayton took me to Ann Arbor and I did a time trial with McQuinn, I think it was just after he was freshman year, probably as a sophomore, and we ran the two-mile and as it turned out we established a long- standing friendship, first of all he was a real character, great guy, he had a great sense of humor and had a lot of fun on the track, but he was an fantastic runner, and its a 220 track over there which means we were running I think 16 laps, I stayed, we ran together, step by step the first mile and a half and in the last half mile he pulled away from me, he ran that day two mile I think he ran a 914, I think my time was 921or922 and then we went over the AAUP which was a few weeks later, and came down to the same thing, only this time it was the whole field, all the other teams was in there, and McQuinn started out, I got right on his tail again and we ran the very same kind of a race, right until the end, and he won it again, I think that Saturday night he ran a 910, I am not sure, I have forgot what my time was, but I took second

Lew: Now that was a national AAU

Gabier: No, this was the Michigan AAU, I ran in most of them, an I can't remember, I ran the

Kansas relays, one of the best miles I ran was out there, I was invited to run in the Glen

Cummingham mile, I think the Glen Cummingham mile I ran in, No I was running a relay at that time, I was the anchor on our relay team, and I remember watching Glen Cummingham invitation mile, I am not sure who won that, then there was the Knights of Columbus, those were probably the, then there was the MSU relays, Michigan relays, we always ran in those

Lew: Did you get student or fans to turn out in those days?

Gabi er: track meets there would be a few, there was never a great spectator sport

Lew: By the time that I went to Michigan in the 50's, I started college in 52, track and field was pretty big at Michigan

Gabier: Well yes, and lot of it had to do with, well Charles_, the great shot putter, I think the first man to break 58 feet, and then followed a series with McQueen because, because when

McQueen was there, he was their greatest distance runner that Michigan ever had at that point ·

Lew: But they had a great tradition of track and field

Gabier: Oh, yes, that's right. Well when we went to Ann Arbor, they would always be a good

Lew: You ran in that old football field, Berry field house, it's gone now, I noticed the other day that it is gone

Gabier: I did not realize that,

Lew: One of Bow football factories is there

Gabier: I hate to hear that

Lew: There are two of them, one isn't enough, they have two indoor football fields

Gabier: I remember that track because that track was cinders and always kept real damp, I suppose to keep the dust down, but it was kind of a wet, I just remember it always being wet, the track we always enjoyed running on was the track at MSU. First, the outdoor track was just beautiful, and still is, as far as I know. Another track that I enjoyed running on was in Chicago, The University of Chicago, and I ran quite a few races there, I remember running one of the doubles there, once in a while I would ran a half-mile, and one day we were running the track meet in that fieldhouse in Chicago and Clayton suggested that I run both the half and the mile which come fairly close together, which I did and ran a half mile first and, I knew I had to ran the mile following, I think that was the way it was scheduled, maybe it was the other way around, usually the mile is early on in the meet, what I do remember about I won them both, was one runner from one of the teams coming up to me afterwards and said you son-of-a-gun you were just playing with us, because I could remember he would be right off my shoulder this was coming around the last lap and I was having some problems, I had had a foot problem, and as I was trying to run just enough to win on that one and I was able because he was trying to pass me on the right curve coming off and I knew who they were and I knew I could handle it so, but I can remember coming up towards, I never really felt that I was playing with them

Lew: What did you do after you graduated?

Gabier: Well, I started teaching at the Hidden Valley School systems north of Ann Arbor and my both my wife and I were teaching there, I married Georgia Chain who was runner-up in the homecoming queen at Western in 1948 or 49

Lew: How do you spell her last name

Gabier: Chain, another girl had won homecoming contest, Georgia, I think was runner-up, but the other girls mother, her father died at the time of homecoming and so she could not be there and so

Georgia, she was the homecoming queen and she and I married, she graduated a year ahead of me and we were married when I was in my last semester, we both taught, got teaching jobs in Hidden

Valley school system, which is in Melford Michigan, 25 miles north of Ann Arbor, class B school system, I started teaching science at that time and having the phy. ed. and I was also the track and cross-country coach, and also coached junior varsity basketball, Melford had quite a history at one time, a record of track teams, but it had been allowed to lapse seriously, and the previous year when I, they had five kids out for track, and they had one boy the athletic director told me, this is when they were trying to encourage me to come there, one real good distance runner, and this I have to tell you, Lew, we all have stories about these kinds of things. Anyway, I was really into track and field those days, and I started there in the fall I had a cross-country team, I got this one kid out and then I encouraged him to get some of his friends, and finally we fielded a cross- country team and we went on and took second or third in the league championship. And the next year we won it, and then for about the next five years we won everything we had, we won the Wayne/Oakland Track Championship, we won the cross-country, we really went to town, and there was two stories there, one that I would like to tell you, and this one boy who was a distance runner, who couldn't do anything else, he was a kid that did not look like an athletic, a little short guy, cow toed, but as it turned out he most stamina than, more guts than you could imagine and I was able to train him, he really had not been trained well, and really did not have a coach, so he was not doing much, and as it turned out, he became to top class B distance runner in the state and he was to run his best year he was to run the state championship in cross-country in high school in

Ypsilanti and the week of the state meet he came down with the flu, but we still went down on

Saturday and he took second place, otherwise I clearly think that he would have won, and there is a lot that goes along with that but I cannot relate, but the follow-up to that, a few years after that I came back to Western and he came to Western, and stayed a couple of years and finally returned home, he just could, he was just not happy, and he just could not hack it, at that time George

Stayles was coach, and had a lot a great runners, and this fellow just could not compete with, and I think probably as much as any thing because he really his heart was not in it at that point, he went home and got married, and really had difficult times and first thing he did when he ended up doing was one day he went down to Novi, attempted to rob a bank in Novi and he comes from a family that the last thing, I mean it was a religious family, I don't know what all the problems were, but anything he was apprended, and had to go to court, and his mother wrote me a letter and said that if the judge said that if someone would supply testimony on his behalf it might help his case, so they gave me the name of the judge in Detroit that he was to go before and I wrote a letter to him and I told about this, I related the story of this boy and the situation, his appearance all that went with it, and on the basis of that letter he was not sent to prison, he was put on probation and his life started around after that, but it was a very interesting time. At the time we were very successful there at track, and Clayton Moss came by and I became a principle then after four years of the junior high school and a couple of elementary schools, headed really for the high school principal ship

Lew: Did you pick up a masters Gabier: I picked up a masters at Michigan while I was there at the time. And Clayton Moss stopped by to see me, that first year, when I was finishing the first year as principal, and said that he was going to add a person at the university in the registrar office and wanted to know if I might be interested, that he had been given permission and so forth because of the tremendous growth that was taking place here at Western, he was going to increase the staff and, and the same time I was contacted by the Athletic director of the Bringham/ highschool, and was offered the job and I went over, there was a track coach over there who still was I think around_ Ambrose,_ was probably the most outstanding track in the state at that time and for many years is still known, he was that kind of a person, and the Bringham/_ probably had the best track facility of any highschool in the state of Michigan, and Kermit had gotten into a run-in with the school administration and had quit, he resigned, and the athletic director came to Melford, called me, and wanted to come over, I went over talked to him and he offered me the job which I would have given any for it, it was just, it was the plum position for a track coach, but Clayton came by at the same time and I called me over here to Kalamazoo and I came over and had an interview with Dale

Fonce, and was offered the job here so I eventually

Lew: Considerably less money I dare say

Gabier: Probably so, I would have loved to have taken that position because again at that time, they had a track, they had equipment, they had everything

Lew: They had a great swimming team

Gabier: As it turned out, it was just as well, because Kermit patched up his difficulties with _ administration and took the job again with them, and came back as the track coach and was there with them for many years

Lew: So you came in working under Clayton Moss in the Registrar office. Why did he leave track

Gabier: John Hokie offered him the Registrar position, and at that time

Lew: Paid more and

Gabier: I think Clayton just felt that was a move for him, a right move for him, Clayton came to

Western and was track coach and also a biology teacher, science teacher Lew: He was not a Western boy

Gabier: No, he taught Biology and he I don't know if he taught autonomy or not with I think at the same time that, not the same time, but with people like and for Reynolds and Dr. _

Lew: He was in the Biology Department

Gabier: Yes, as I recall he was and then I not sure if he also was the freshmen basketball coach with Buck Read, and then when Towner left as track coach Clayton became the track coach, and I am a little vague on some of these things

Lew: What year did you come back to Western

Gabier: I came back in 1958, I was away for six years, I left in '52 and came back to Western in

'58 and began in July 1 1958 as assistant director of admissions and that was during the tremendous growth of the university, in fact, I believe our enrollment in 1958 in the fall was 7500 and 7800 and within ten years it had doubled in size and of course at that time, eventually while I was assistant director of admissions,

Lew: Who was the director

Gabier: Clayton and registrar and director of admissions, but he put me in this position, as it turned out eventually I became director of admissions but, basically I had the admission program and Clayton oversaw because at that time there was always tremendous expansion throughout and the registrar did all the good things that Denny Boyle has done, by the way, Denny Boyle is also at

Western basically because of me

Lew: Is that right

Gabier: Yes, Denny and I started teaching together at Milford the same year, Denny had graduated from Eastern Michigan University, his parents lived in Milford, so he came back to his home town and we started at the same time and Denny and another fellow were coaching basketball and football and I was coaching track and cross-country, and at one point I was athletic director there as well as Milford and we started together and then when I left, and came back to Kalamazoo and come to Western, I think I was back here maybe two years and Clayton was looking for another person and I had some contact with Denny because at that time, it may have been two, three and four years, anyway Denny had moved up at Milford and eventually became principal at Milford high school. And at that time, I remember having a meeting with Denny somewhere along the line, and I asked him whether he would be interesting in coming because we were looking for someone and he was and he came over, I have always thought, even though Denny has been through a lot over the years, I have always felt that was my greatest contribution to Western was bringing Denny

Boyle over, because Denny and I were great buddies and the funny thing the reason I think fondly of all of that is the reason when Denny was at Milford, he family were Democrats and he was really what is called a card canying Democrat, anyway and in those days I had at that point somewhat of a republican person, even though I really was very non-political, had very little interest, but Denny was, his mother, his father, everyone were big in the Democratic Party and so we used to have many, many arguments and debates and but we were great friends and anyway

Denny came over here and registrar eventually and we see eye to eye on many things, I think that over the years Denny finally wised up

Lew: I though maybe you had joined the middle that you had moved a little more to the left and he moved a little more to the right

Gabier: Actually, the truth of the matter is Lew, I know Denny got pretty far off to the right, I think from what he tells me at times, I think that is probably true. I think I did. And

Lew; Tell me about your work in the admission office, what you would like to be remember for in your years of Director of Admissions

Gabier: Well, I could talk for hours on the subject and because and Western because its growth and so many things because it was during the period that I was there particularly during the 60s and 70s somewhat turbulent as we all recognize so I had many, many experiences that I can relate stories on but in admissions work the first thing that we dealt with was this avalanche this tidlewave of students

Lew: You did not have to worry about recruiting

Gabier: No, not for a period of time there, they just came and when we first began to experience this during the 60s we were racing, we were trying to find ways, at one point trying to find ways to say no and other times trying to find ways to recruit students so that there were just many things happening, but when I first started for quite a period of time, for several years we were admitting most students who applied for admission if they had a C average and seemed to have an acceptable recommendations out of high school normally, Well I can recall in a few years ago, I can remember all of this very clearly, I tended to kind of let some of it go, but I do remember the largest freshmen class we had at one point was 4,440 students, the next year we put a cap on it and we registered like 2700 students and then we had the problem for the next several years of these peaks and valleys in enrollment and I can remember sitting in and going through this and dealing with problems with people with Jack Asher and many of the others you known, just hour after hour trying to decide how we were going to do some of these things, you know what the solution was and etc. But eventually, I guess if one would say, what I can point to with admissions work I think I would say probably I would feel that I was instrumental in developing in a forerunner of the first stages of sophisticated admissions process at the university, I can remember the first couple of years when I came to Western in 1959/60 when we were receiving more applications every day, at times we would be receiving 100 applications a day which was a real increase at that point and we had a small staff, in fact the first summer that I arrived they had applications down stairs at the

Administration Building sitting round on window sills just all over the place and Clayton Moss and

Dr. Keith Smith were the only two people working on it at that point of the administrators, and the just could not deal with it, could not handle it, and we would get calls from parents and they would say Well my son or daughter submitted an application back in April and something and we still have not heard from Western and the girls in the office would start tearing around and trying to locate the application because you know, sometimes you could not even get them into the file cabinets they were coming so fast we could not get them prepared. But anyway, we had to deal with that so the first thing that we had to do was to began to add admission counselors and staff and we did that, and then as time went on they began to put caps and restrictions on enrollments that we just could not just take everyone that came along so we dealt with all the problems or attended to those kinds of issues. I think that in The Western, I believe was the first public university in the state of Michigan that began to seriously utilize the services of the American

College Testing program. ACT. There was a period were we had to justify and deal with the issues why not the SAT, Scholastic Aptitude Test, why the ACT, and as it turned out the ACT out of Iowa was really, they were ahead of the SAT at that time and provided the kinds of services and the testing program that really was best suited to a public university for the Ivy League schools in the East the SAT is fine during those years they could use it because they had a lot of experience

but the kinds of things that we needed the ACT was it. Well, anyway we eventually utilized the

ACT and many services attributed to it, or that are attended to it. So we had to develop that kind of a system and then for a long time we were dealing with the issue of recruitment of students, with admissions counselors, college night programs, and then as time went on, we found ourself in real steep competition with other schools for students and of course, our faculty expected and wanted good students like most faculties, and so there was always the question, you know, what kinds of students we were admitting etc.which always brings me to the story that I loved to tell

Harlen Threasure, the Director of Admissions at MIT once said that the faculty each year would ask him Well what is the quality of our freshman class this year, and Threasure answer was We

have selected a class that will respond to excellent teaching, so you know we did not have to worry quite so much about that type of thing as far as competition but we were always competing with

MSU and Central Michigan University basically, people sometime are concerned about Michigan and we had some competition there, but really the competing schools for us would be Central and

MSU and sometime Eastern Michigan University. But we developed a recruiting and of course we had to train counselors and then we began to fact the issues of minority student recruitment and that's why during that phrase of all this I really had some interesting experiences something dramatic and sometimes, but most of them were experience that I look back on very fondly, because I have friends as a result of all of that, black men and women that I still communicate with and still know them and I believe that I employed, and I would say this even thought that Roger

Pullin, No Roger was the first one, I don't think so, I think the first administrator black

administrator appointed at Western, I employed, and I think that was Clark Valentine, as an admission counselor, at about that same time, after the Martin Luther King assassination, they developed the Martin Luther King Program, somewhere in there Roger became, both Troy Allen and Roger, I think Roger was the first person there, was in that position, but I still go back and I would have, we would have to go back to the records, because I have talked about this before with other people,and I think Clark was the first person considered to be an administrator in that

Admissions Counselors

Lew: You are talking about 1968 or some late in 1968

Gabier: I would have to go back, I started to put that together one day, because Chauncy called me about it, but I think that was, anyway it was during that time period and Clark was that person, then during that period I added other men and women who were minority people and we had a couple of Hispanic who were graduate students, one graduate student at one point who was on the staff Jannie Brook she a black women she is the Dean of Students the last I knew, Dean of

Students at Muskegon Community College, I employed Jane, she was with us for quite a period of time, and then the other man who I am fighting to remember his name because he is a good friend went to Lake Michigan College as Dean of Students, I believe, tall man, black man, he was a basketball player at Utah, I can't think of his name, anyway he was employed with us during that time period, so we dealt with many of those issues, I had to sit with,and did sit with Roger,

Nelson Jackson, and during that period when there were a lot of problems dealing with the recruitment of black students who were both the Martin Luther King Program and as regular students, the issues of qualifications, whether or not certain students should be admitted with grade point averages etc., that were not the level of the regular students, so those were the things that were really taxing, trying, interesting things that we had to deal with.

Lew: Was President Miller encouraging you to recruit minority students

Gabier: Well at that time, yes, in fact I never had, President Miller, Jim Miller was always very supportive of the work I was doing, I found him to be just a very supportive person, I want to follow that because, let's see it was during that time that we were dealing with those programs and

I eventually worked closely with both Barney Colter, and of course Barney had a interim presidency there, but Barney also was our vice president for admissions area at one time there, so I worked with him very closely. The man that I probably worked the closes with in terms of college president was John Bernhard because I was in admissions when John came but then it was shortly after that when I went to the development operation and of course with the first campaign and everything that's where I had worked very closely with John and had a good experience there, my experience at Western with the presidents because when I came President Paul Sangren was president and but right near the end of the career, his tenure, so I did not have a lot of contact with him, but with both Jim Miller and John Brunhard and finally Diether, and the interim presidents was always good

Lew: When did you leave Admissions?

Gabier: I left in 1976

Lew: You hired Jim Dempsey, then

Gabier: Yes, oh yes,

Lew: In fact, I think I wrote a letter to you encouraging you to do so

Gabi er:Yes, Jim was

Lew: He was a partner in a with me

Gabier: Yes I remember Jim telling me about that to, Yes, in fact I can remember clearly the association with Jim because that was at a time really Lew when it was difficult to employ people that we felt were qualify counselors for admissions, for one thing, we said that they had to have a counseling degree, we asked that they should teaching experience first of all in the secondary school level and that they also be certified counselors, have a masters degree in counseling, that was not always easy to find that kind of person at that point, but any way, Jim, I recall came and I discussed his situation with him at some lengths that happened that he is a Methodist minister and

I happened to be a Methodist, I was very interested in his decision to leave the ministry as such and it was also during a time when there was this great change in our society, civil rights movement and all those things, but Jim was a real fine counselor and as I understand he has just been recently recognized in some way there as a transfer admissions counselor, I have heard that 1

Tape #2- Russel Gabier

Gabier: At the end before I went to the Development Office I was president of the Michigan

Association Registrars Offices, and I finished my term and at that time I had been in Admissions

17 years and I can remember my good friend at that time Frank Bentz had, I employed Frank Bentz on time as an admission counselor, he left, he came back we employed him again as an admission counselor, and eventually he went to the Scholarship office and eventually to the development office, and then at the time that Frank left the development office to go to the

University of Minnesota I believe it was the position was open and I sat in Barney Colter officer one day and Barney was vice president at that time of administration in charge of those areas and I had just finished the term with admissions when I recall making a statement that I was not necessarily aiming for 30 years and a gold watch, and would be interested in other positions at the university if he felt that I was qualified, etc. as time went on, and he said "You would", he had just had some problems down in the development area and shortly thereafter I made the decision to go there. So, I started in the development office in 1976 and left 1986 to come down here.

Lew: Just 4 years you left

Gabier: E. Gilmore died in January 1986, and I came here, came to the foundation and began in

August 1986, so I have been here

Lew: I guess I see you in the locker room and I figured you had not been gone that long, But tell me briefly what you tried to do to accomplish

Gabier: I think the basic, no my task at that time when I went to the Development office was to establish a development operation and a development structure at that time there were some dissatisfaction on the alumni program and the development office was Frank Bentz and Tim Riley were the two people that had created a sense under Jim Miller and Pete Ellis a development operations and then they both left at one point, I guess there was some disagreement on some part, but I do know that Frank accepted a job with the University of Minnesota's foundation and they 2 really had not got organized yet, I mean they started, Helen Flaspolder was there, she was the one person that I when I went dow to the office I really had to learn from, and she had experience that no one else had, and so the task was to get things established and I was told that was one of the reasons that I was selected, asked to go there because I had a proved record as an administrator at the University. Very shortly after I arrived, I realized that Frank and Tim and initiated a study by a consulting firm, and the firm recommended in preparation for raising money and the firm recommended that, and I think it was the John Gribs firm, that the University establish a foundation for these purposes and so that became my primary assignment, my objective at that point, and I was asked by both John Bernhard and Barney Colter to make that my first priority so that what's I started. And had it not been well maybe I should say that way, but I was able to make contact with John Upjohn, William John and it turned out John was willing to take that on and to become the president and help establish a university foundation. Had it not been for John's willingness to do that I am not at all convinced that the foundations would have gotten up and running in the manner in which it did, so I have always felt very kindly towards John because it was a new experience for him, we both had to learn a lot and we traveled and talked to foundation people, we did many things in an effort to create and savage what we felt was necessary to required

Lew: So you sort of had a latitude in the direction you were going to take for the foundation

Gabier: Very much so, because really few if any of the people around at that time had any experience and of course, I immediately jumped into it with both feet because it was a new field, I had had the experience through admissions work some experiences were related working with people, etc. etc., outside of the University, but in a way I felt that it was somewhat of a natural, and I enjoyed it, and so I really went at it with everything that I had, I studied, I went off to seminars, workshops I met, I went to the fund raising school, I did everything that I could, I visited foundations directors, I went to Iowa, I went Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, and

Lew: It was sort of a two prong job, not only to raise funds but also to determine how the funds 3 would be used, at least where they would go

Gabier: Well, Lew, determining where they would go is not so much the task of the foundation in which in essence is a adjunct arm of the development office at a public university, institutional fund rasing amounts that really the primary, the purpose is to cultivate donor prospects along and others and raise the funds in order to raise the funds, however if it is done properly and there are a lot of things that are not done properly, but we knew, at least I knew what had to be done, but you can't always get all of that, and part of that all listening to everyone at the same time. But in order to raise funds you first have to have a case, the university has to be able to say to its development team, to its foundation if you will, which is part of the development foundation, this is what we want, this is what we need, then so-called professionals in the business of raising money or the development team or the foundation gets the assignments of those_ to the fund raising, but if they don't have the purpose of reason and they don't have a good case for raising money their hands are tied and sometimes these things its a very difficult task because many programs, projects, etc. for which funds are greatly ,critically needed are simply are not attractive to the private sector as something to which donors are going to contribute. Many things are, but the secret behind it all, well there are several secrets, but one is to have a good case why it is to raise money, and something I should mention is that fact when Western started the foundations and a structured development operation if was still at that time public universities were not into raising private sector funds and going after private sector money, like the private colleges and universities had been for many, many years

Lew: I know, Miller did not like it at all

Gabier: Well, philosophically Jim Miller, at least this is the way we understood it at the time really did not believe in it and but he at least consented at the time Frank Bentz talked him into, and I am sure some others, at least establish an development office to get some of these things going, but in this community, for example, once Western's foundation began to become visible we heard often about the concerns about the people who lived in the community who felt that the University would 4 be_ funds away from the private colleges, Kalamazoo, Nazareth, and didn't support that, John

Upjohn as the first president on the Western foundation had to deal with some of that, some of his people as friends query him and questions him why he was doing this, and so there was a period of time, quite some time that was needed to educate not only the faculty and the administration but basically the donor community the private sector, and the great public universities must have private support as well, in fact all the great public universities in this country have tremendous amount of private support

Lew: Well you must have laid the groundwork very well, because Dieter, of course, Dieter helps with his own personal, the image of Western community has never been higher, and I think it is the long trail that you people created

Gabier: One of the things Lew that sometimes college presidents, some college presidents are not necessary, are somewhat reluctant to accept, but they really are, the college president is really the chief development officer of most colleges and universities. Certainly at a private college, all the professional fund raisers will tell you thank, if your president is not willing to do the things that are necessary then your job is going to be double difficult. One would say, now wait a minute, college at the University of Michigan and Ohio State, somewhere like that, or even Western

Michigan University does not have time, can't do all the things that you need to raise money in the private sector, and we say that's true, they can't do it all, but they better be willing to do as much as they possible can, and at Western, and I have to tell you another thing, because this was in a period when these things were just beginning to develop, when the educational process was beginning, John Bernhard did every thing we ever asked him to do, I have said this many times, I could not have had a president, I could not have been working with a president at that time that I felt would have been any better to work with, we ask John to do something, he did it, and he understood that, Dieter has come along and has been able to build on all that in a sense was a start because, I can't say that John enjoyed the idea, and I am not sure that a whole lot of people do enjoy the idea 5

Lew: Di ether would be one of the few, he enjoys everything

Gabier: I think he does, but still say that John would do it, I took him on calls and we did things that I know that he did not want to do, but he would do it, he just, so anyway I guess what I am saying John help in starting it did very well and Diether just fit in perfectly and has build on it

Lew: so that was a natural progression after you had done your work there to go another foundation, a private foundation the Gilmore foundation

Gabier: It was absolutely a wonderful experience, simply but seriously because I would make comment on it, first of all Lew across the table, on the other side of the table was you know a great experience for me and frankly, as I said before, I can't think of anything I would rather be doing. But I would very quickly add, that I believe foundation staff, a professional foundation staff people at private and community foundations ought to first have had the experience on the other side of the table of raising money, I think they make the best, I really believe they make the best staff people and directors, executive directors if you will, managers of grant making foundations and I don't say that just because of my own experience, but I think that's now being recognized across the country, the National Council on Foundations now I find as we go to the annual meetings, etc. that many people who are now heading the foundations such as this foundation, and others like it, are people that had at one time were development officers and working on the other side

Lew: It is always to give money away than to go looking for it

Gabier: Well there are those who profess and will say, and I have heard this, and I understand why they are saying, Well giving money away isn't easy, that's a hard job, and I have people come to me, a lot of people have said to me, Gee I don't know if I would want your job it must be difficult making a decision as to who, and I say well it is, but nevertheless its really a great pleasure and a great joy, and perhaps because my experience is probably, maybe a better experience than some of had because its has been a foundation, or this is a foundation with large assets who have been able to focus on a community where not doing our grant making all over the 6 state of Michigan or all over the United States, we could, but we are not doing that, we are basically focusing on this community and in that manner with the other great foundations in the community, we are one of the largest community foundations in the United States here and the

Kalamazoo foundation, and the several other foundations all doing most of their work in

Kalamazoo, you know we can just do wonderful things, and we are, this is an foundation that in four years have committed nearly 16 million dollars to this community

Lew: How much

Gabier: 16, committed, I mean we paid out I think over 12 million now, so you know we are going to be here for years to come, so its a wonderful experience, we feel, and as time goes on, I see the many things that needs to be done, and the things that we would like to do, we see the issues within the community, whether it is downtown development, whatever it might be, you know now I am beginning to realize that we need to work hard because there are many things that must be done, so we want to, and still try to remain true to the request and trust of founder of the founder, Ervin Gilmore, Ervin was a benefactor of the arts and human services, and we expanded that somewhat, but we still view the arts as our first priority and human services as a co-priority, in fact, thus far, I think we have put more money into human services than we have the arts, even though the arts and more visible

Lew: Well, there maybe some gaps, and I would like the opportunity to get back after this has been transcribed, but two quick questions for the record (1) Children-what are those

Gabier: I have one child 33 Andrea and Andy is a graduate of Western and she my only child, my wife is deceased now five years

Lew: And you still run

Gabier: I still plod

Lew: I am not going to ask if your weight is still the same as when you were running for Western

Gabier: I am afraid not, no I am running and I am biking, and mostly my problems today are

because a couple of years ago I had to have an bloom treatment which you know really kind of put 7 stops on things so I have to tone it down some