COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HOUSE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE
THE MAIN CAPITOL ROOM 14 0 HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA
TUESDAY, MARCH 22, 2011 11:00 A.M.
PUBLIC HEARING PENNSYLVANIA STATE POLICE
BEFORE:
HONORABLE WILLIAM F. ADOLPH, JR., CHAI^IAN HONORABLE JOSEPH F. MARKOSEK HONORABLE JOHN C. BEAR HONORABLE MARTIN T. CAUSER HONORABLE GORDON DENLINGER HONORABLE BRIAN L. ELLIS HONORABLE MAUREE GINGRICH HONORABLE GLEN R. GRELL HONORABLE TOM KILLION HONORABLE DAVID R. MILLARD HONORABLE T. MARK MUSTIO HONORABLE BERNIE O'NEILL HONORABLE MICHAEL PEIFER HONORABLE SCOTT A. PETRI HONORABLE SCOTT PERRY HONORABLE TINA PICKETT CONTINUED:
HONORABLE JEFFREY P. PYLE HONORABLE THOMAS J. QUIGLEY HONORABLE DOUGLAS REICHLEY HONORABLE MARIO M. SCAVELLO HONORABLE CURTIS G. SONNEY HONORABLE MATTHEW D. BRADFORD HONORABLE H. SCOTT CONKLIN HONORABLE PAUL COSTA HONORABLE DEBERAH KULA HONORABLE TIM MAHONEY HONORABLE MICHAEL H. O'BRIEN HONORABLE CHERELLE L. PARKER HONORABLE JOHN P. SABATINA, JR. HONORABLE STEVE SAMUELSON HONORABLE MATTHEW SMITH HONORABLE RONALD G. WATERS
ALSO PRESENT:
HONORABLE STEPHEN BARRAR HONORABLE KERRY A. BENNINGHOFF HONORABLE VANESSA LOWERY BROWN HONORABLE MICHELLE F. BROWNLEE HONORABLE DOM COSTA HONORABLE PAUL I. CLYMER HONORABLE MARK B. COHEN HONORABLE TOM C. CREIGHTON HONORABLE MARGO L. DAVIDSON HONORABLE MARIA DONATUCCI HONORABLE JOHN R. EVANS HONORABLE DAN FRANKEL HONORABLE RICHARD A. GEIST HONORABLE JOSEPH T. HACKETT HONORABLE C. ADAM HARRIS HONORABLE MARCY TOEPEL HONORABLE MIKE VEREB
EDWARD NOLAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR (R) MIRIAM FOX, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR (D)
BRENDA S. HAMILTON, RPR REPORTER - NOTARY PUBLIC INDEX
NAME PAGE
OPENING REMARKS BY CHAIRMAN ADOLPH 4
OPENING REMARKS BY REP. MARKOSEK 5
COLONEL FRANK NOONAN 6 COMMISSIONER
MR. SCOTT FREDERICK, DIRECTOR OF 8 FISCAL DIVISION
MAJOR KENNETH HILL, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER 25 OF ADMINISTRATION AND PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBILITY
MAJOR GEORGE BIVENS, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF 4 9 OPERATIONS
MAJOR SCOTT SNYDER, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER -¬ OF STAFF P R O C E E D I N G S
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Good morning,
Chairman Adolph, and members of the House Appropriations
Committee. No? I'm sorry.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Good morning.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Good morning.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: The hour of eleven o'clock having arrived, I'd like to call to order the
House Appropriations' budget hearing for the Pennsylvania
State Police.
Testifying today is the new State Police
Commissioner, Frank Noonan. Commissioner Noonan was nominated by Governor Corbett on January 18th to be the new commissioner for the Pennsylvania State Police.
Mr. Noonan is a career investigator with more than 30 years. He began his career in 1971 as an
FBI agent investigating public corruption, drugs, bank robberies and kidnapping.
Following his retirement from the FBI in
1998, Commissioner Noonan was appointed as the northeast regional director for the Attorney General's Bureau of
Narcotics Investigations.
After 11 years as regional director,
Commissioner Noonan was promoted to the Chief of Criminal Investigations for the Office of Attorney General in July of 2009.
Commissioner Noonan, congratulations -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN ADOLPH: -- on your new appointment. Wish you well.
And without further ado, Chairman Markosek for opening comments.
REP. MARKOSEK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
You have to wait awhile here, you know, while we go through all the — the housekeeping.
But welcome and congratulations, Colonel
Noonan.
Representative Matt Smith from Allegheny
County, a member of the Committee, has arrived, and the minority chair, Democratic chair of the Judiciary
Committee, Representative Tom Caltagirone, is present with us today as well, and I wanted to make sure that they were recognized here.
So welcome. And I'll turn it back to the -- to the Chair.
CHAIRMAN ADOLPH: Commissioner Noonan, we received your written testimony and the time is yours.
You can introduce your colleagues at the table and after you're done with your brief introduction and synopsis of your testimony, we'll open the floor for questions.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Thank you. I am
Colonel Frank Noonan, Acting Commissioner of the State
Police. With me today are Acting Deputy Commissioner of
Staff, Scott Snyder; Acting Deputy Commissioner of
Operations, George Bivens; Acting Deputy Commissioner of
Administration and Professional Responsibility, Kenneth
Hill; and the Director of our Fiscal Division, Scott
Frederick.
All right. Do you wish me to go through my notes or just to make a brief opening statement?
CHAIRMAN ADOLPH: Whatever you're more comfortable with. We always want to make sure that you feel comfortable with us, because we want to feel comfortable with you.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Well, thank you.
I'll just -- I'll just say it's a pleasure to be here today to talk to you all. It's a great honor.
The State Police is facing many challenges. The number one challenge we're facing to date is that we're down almost 400 troopers. We expect in the near future -- we have a contract coming up in a year and a half. Our normal attrition rate is about 150 troopers a year. In the -- in contract years, though, especially if the contract has a negative effect, we're going to -- we -- we anticipate that it could be quite a bit more.
The -- the -- adding troopers and getting our complement back up is something that has been recognized by Governor Corbett, and in his budget proposal he's trying to get our numbers up to -- about
230 troopers will be added, and that is my basic concern.
It -- if there's any questions, I'd be happy to answer them.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you. The first question is by State Representative Bernie O'Neill.
REP. O'NEILL: Good morning, and congratulations on your new appointment.
I wanted to talk about the cadets in the cadet class.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. O'NEILL: Something that I've been involved in on the Judiciary Committee for many years so
-- and your -- your complement.
Right now what is -- what is the complement that you have right now, as we speak, of troopers?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: 4,677.
REP. O'NEILL: And what would be the full complement, if you were up to the full complement that you'd normally -¬
DEP. COMM. FREDERICK: That -- I'm sorry.
That is the full complement. Full complement is 4,677.
That's our authorized complement.
REP. O'NEILL: Okay. So what -- what -¬ what do you have now? You're down 400 and some? Is that
DEP. COMM. FREDERICK: We're down just 4 00.
So you're looking at -¬
REP. O'NEILL: Okay. Great. And then in the budget proposal you've asked for about 13.4 million in appropriations for -- is it two classes?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: It's -- it's 230 cadets. We may break that up because -- because of some logistical matters into three classes. But that's the number of people we're asking for.
REP. O'NEILL: Okay.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: The number of cadets.
REP. O'NEILL: Okay. And — and what is approximately the cost per cadet when they go through the
-- I get -- someone told me it was around a hundred thousand maybe.
DEP. COMM. FREDERICK: Yes. It's close to that. If you look at it starting from July 1st, the cost of a cadet is roughly around 40,000 and the cost of a trooper, once he becomes a trooper for the remaining portion of the year, it equates to roughly about a hundred thousand dollars. Again if you started July
1st. If you start pushing cadet classes back further in the fiscal year, it gets less and less because of the fiscal year ends -¬
REP. O'NEILL: Yeah.
DEP. COMM. FREDERICK: -- the fiscal year balance.
REP. O'NEILL: Got you. And then actually after they get out of school, out of the class, they're really not up to full complement, what, for six months or so because they're still not -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: That's correct.
REP. O'NEILL: — on street training.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: They're in training for six months to a year depending on how -¬
REP. O'NEILL: Before they -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Before they're considered fully -¬
REP. O'NEILL: And they're actually -- so you're talking almost a year or more sometimes for some of those guys? COMMISSIONER NOONAN: That's correct. And that's why I'm concerned about the potential for a number of retirements in the upcoming year, that we would maybe face a crisis situation if we drop down to where we're
600 troopers down. It would be -- it would be very difficult for us.
REP. O'NEILL: Right. Yeah. And there's a lot of people here in the legislature that have been very supportive of what -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. O'NEILL: — you're trying to do and haven't agreed with the past administration and -- and the cadet classes. The bottom dollar is -- is always, you know, the budget and where the money is coming from.
In the House there have been several bills over the years concerning how the troopers, when they're out in areas that are not patrolled by any type of municipality or borough police and they give out a ticket, how a portion of that or 50 percent of it is going to the local community even though they're not supporting a local police department.
And we've had several bills that concern that in the House, and it's kind of always been a sticking point because there was always a fight over how that money should be spent that was coming back to the state.
But I believe it's Senate Bill 237 is out there. That -- that bill itself does that and -- and takes that money away from the municipalities and locals.
In that bill, I just want to make sure, is that dedicated to go back to the State Police and dedicated to your cadet classes?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I believe that's correct.
REP. O'NEILL: That's what I thought. And, do we know if -- if -- if we can get that piece of legislation through, will that cover the 13.4 million based on your projections of what -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: It's -- it's my understanding that that bill will generate about 6.4.
REP. O'NEILL: Okay. That's what I was wondering. Okay. And then we're really making up the difference so -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Right.
REP. O'NEILL: Great. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
Representative Michael O'Brien.
REP. O'BRIEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, sir.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Good morning.
REP. O'BRIEN: You know, as -- I have to say, as -- as a Philadelphian, when -- when I see the troopers come off I-95 just to turn around and continue their patrol, it -- it always adds an additional sense of safety, just to see the troopers. You know, wonderful job that -- that you do.
But I -- I -- I have to ask, what is the cost of patrolling the areas in the state that don't have their own police departments?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I don't believe we've broken that down to -- to an exact -- exact cost. I mean it's -- we patrol 80 percent of the -- of the land mass for the state of Pennsylvania.
I don't think there's been any studies done about what our actual cost is. There are some communities that are -- that are fairly large that would -- that don't have, I know, law enforcement facilities or patrol, but I don't believe there's been a study on -- on what we -- on how much it costs us to provide this service to communities that don't have law enforcement.
REP. O'BRIEN: If one is forthcoming, could
I ask you to provide it to the committee? COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Absolutely.
REP. O'BRIEN: Thank you. You know, you were saying that the -- you patrol approximately 87 percent of the state?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: About -- I think it's
83. Something along those lines.
REP. O'BRIEN: What does -- what does -¬ what does that break down into, into the percentage of population, not land mass?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: It's -- I believe it's 27 percent of the population.
REP. O'BRIEN: And as a -- as a final question, do we -- do you have no cost estimate of what it is to patrol those areas?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: No. That -- that basically comes in our -- in our overall budget that we
-- that's part of our job and that's what we do.
We haven't broken it down as to which communities we -- we -- is costing us the most or anything like that.
REP. O'BRIEN: I would ask you just to provide that when you do. Thank you very much, sir.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Thank you.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
Representative Tina Pickett. REP. PICKETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Good morning.
REP. PICKETT: I represent a very rural part of the state, Bradford, Sullivan, and Susquehanna
Counties, that have recently become very busy -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. PICKETT: — by our estimate of such.
Can you tell me, when new -- new academies are in place and -- and new troopers are available, how do you decide where they will go? In my area they seem -- there's a great concern about, now, more safety, highway safety -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Uh-huh.
REP. PICKETT: -- traffic control. Is there any chance that any of the rural stations would end up with more troopers?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes. Absolutely. We are -- in particular because of the economic developments up in your particular area and up in the north, we've been shifting personnel up there. To date, as we get more personnel, we are looking at that very closely, as well as enforcement for heavy equipment because of the damage it does to the roads. We are -- we are -- we're putting more of our assets up in that area for just that reason. REP. PICKETT: And in the last few years there has been some suggestion that some of the rural stations might become, I guess you would say, automated, no actual troopers there.
And my Sullivan County felt that they were under that eye watch, shall I say, for such a thing. Is there any thought of closing any of the stations at this point?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Not at this time.
No, there is not.
REP. PICKETT: Okay. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you. At this time
I'd like to acknowledge the presence of Representative
Mike Vereb and Representative Joe Hackett.
For your information, sir, both these men are former law enforcement officers in their Montgomery and Delaware Counties respectively.
Okay. The next -- the next question will come from Chairman Markosek.
REP. MARKOSEK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And Representative Dan Frankel is with us as well today.
And I see Representative John Sabatina, a committee member, has arrived as well.
Colonel, the -- the new complement of cadets or the program to have new cadets come on board, which the Governor talked about in his budget address, what percentage of the cost of that will be paid for from the fines?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Oh, you mean if the new legislation were to be passed?
REP. MARKOSEK: Well, yeah. He had -¬ correct me if I'm wrong. He had indicated that there would be a -- a new complement of cadets.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Correct.
CHAIRMAN MARKOSEK: And that we would help pay for that through the use of -- of redirecting the fines. What -- would that -- would those -- that redirection of fines, would that pay for all of the -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: No. It would -- it would not, sir. It would about half. It's about 6.4 million, and I think we're -- we're anticipating —
13.4?
DEP. COMM. FREDERICK: 13.4.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: For the cadet classes. So whatever that difference is, 7 million, would be -- would be made up by regular fines.
REP. MARKOSEK: So the balance of that then, that would come from where?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I believe the -- the -¬
DEP. COMM. FREDERICK: General fund.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: General funds.
DEP. COMM. FREDERICK: Motor License Fund.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: And Motor License
Funds.
REP. MARKOSEK: And the Motor License
Fund?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. MARKOSEK: Roughly how much from the
Motor License Fund?
DEP. COMM. FREDERICK: 75 -- 75 percent of our general government operations is funded through the
Motor License Fund. The other 25 percent is funded through general fund.
REP. MARKOSEK: Okay. The Governor, he didn't mention that when he made his budget address. He said that the money would come from the fines, which is a good thing.
But I think it's -- you know, folks should know that there's money from the Motor License Fund as well.
And there's been talk over the years about weaning, if you will, for lack of a better term, the -¬ the State Police away from the Motor License Fund because the Motor License Fund was set up, of course, for rebuilding highways and bridges and those kind of things.
And I also know that that's a challenge to the -- if we would take the State Police, for example, out of that and put them in the -- in the general fund, it creates another problem.
What -- is there anything that -- that your organization has been doing to -- or -- or I guess maybe a better way to say it, have you thought about talking to the Governor about weaning the State Police away from the
Motor License Fund so that we can use that fund for its original purpose?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I have -- I have not talked directly to the Governor about that. I have talked to his staff in -- in discussions and we were discussing it with various legislators.
We've been — the State Police, I understand, has been getting funds from that particular source since 1923. It presents a tremendous problem though. Where else would that money come from?
I'm -- I'm not aware of -- of any thoughts or efforts right now to wean us away from that fund, and
I have not heard any good ideas where we could get another hundred -- where that kind of money could come from.
REP. MARKOSEK: Well, the -- we had -- the question was brought up about some of these communities that have State Police coverage that aren't essentially paying their fair share for it. Would that be a source perhaps?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: That would be a -¬ that might be a portion of it. But it's my understanding that we -¬
DEP. COMM. FREDERICK: We get -- about 61 percent of our money comes from the Motor License Fund.
So you're looking at approximately 600 -- $565 million that you'd need to fund through other sources if you're to wean off the State Police from the Motor License
Fund.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: And that would be difficult, I think, to recoup from the municipalities, but it's certainly open for discussion.
REP. MARKOSEK: Well, we understand it's difficult, because we've been trying. And, you know, my background is with Transportation Committee, so I'm, you know, keenly aware of this -- this situation, and it's -¬ and it's not a reflection on what you do. We understand you have to do what you have to do.
And I know that in the next couple of years you're going to have a number of troopers who are going to be at or near retirement age. So it's even more important that we have new recruits coming on board.
So that is something that I think we would all support. It's just that when we have so many deficient -- so much deficient transportation infrastructure and we keep asking the Motor License Fund to pay more and more for other things -- and it's not just State Police -- that I think, you know, at some point in time this legislature, not just the State
Police, of course, but this entire legislature is going to have to deal with that problem. Because, you know, we're very shorthanded in the transportation area as well as you can imagine.
So thank you.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: You bet.
CHAIRMAN ADOLPH: Representative Glen
Grell.
REP. GRELL: Thank you. Up here.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Okay.
REP. GRELL: Good morning, Commissioner.
Thanks for being here.
First, let me say that we've been hearing the call for additional cadet classes probably ever since
I've been here, and I've been here for six years. So I'm very pleased that -- that that call is -- is finally being answered and that hopefully we'll follow through in
-- in this year's budget, not only put the money in for the cadets but also use it for that purpose.
I wanted to ask you briefly to discuss the role of the State Police in Pennsylvania gaming facilities, what you do, what has been your experience in those facilities as to the level of need versus the level of personnel you have deployed there, and how those operations functions funded. If you could just walk us through that briefly I'd appreciate it.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Sure. The -- the gaming industry itself funds, I believe, a hundred percent of the troopers that are present at the gaming facilities.
The reason that I understand that that's done is so that there is -- the local municipalities and the local State Police barracks, that this -- having the casino, the violations don't fall back upon them. So that's why they need them there.
We run the gamut as far as what type of arrests we do. There's cheating, there's drunkenness, and things like that. Although drunkenness is not a particular problem it seems at the casino. There were only 60-some arrests there last year. So we basically enforce the law on -- at the casinos. We -- there's two more that we expect to be opening. So there will probably be an increase. We'll probably be putting some more troopers in those casinos that are coming up.
And as far as I -- I know that program seems to be working fairly well.
REP. GRELL: Okay. If I may follow-up.
We've heard from your predecessor that maybe you aren't really needed there as much as your presence is allocated.
I'm wondering if you've had time to assess that and whether you feel that the -- the level of staffing that you're providing at the casinos is appropriate for the activity that goes on there?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: That's something I'm looking into, but I have not come to a decision concerning that right now.
REP. GRELL: Okay.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: But from what I understand in talking to people, they're -- they're satisfied with the staffing levels that -- that we have now.
REP. GRELL: One other question I wanted to ask you very briefly. MPOETC, municipality police officers' training, several years ago funding was eliminated from the budget to reimburse municipalities for sending their officers to that training. So that mandate has been pushed down on the municipalities.
I'm wondering if -- if the State Police has a position on the propriety of allowing appropriate training to be done through online maintenance so that municipalities would not have to bear the costs of physically sending their officers to some of those training courses?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes. Right now we're -- we're conducting a study. We have a program going with the Office of Administration to develop this training.
I'm not sure that we would ever -- it will be something we offer. Not every municipality is going to wish to take online training. It's going to be -- but it's something we're developing. I would hope we would have it start rolling out within a year, year and a half.
Like with everything else, it seems to take a lot longer than you think it would, but there's -¬ there's a number of vendors we have to deal with and -¬ and -- but we're pushing towards that particular goal.
We want to have online training, at least for a portion of the training we provide -- provide through MPOETC.
REP. GRELL: To your knowledge, is there anything that the legislature needs to do to enable that or is that something that can be done without any changes to current law?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: As far as I know that
-- we don't need a change to -- to the law at this point. It's -- it's more a technology type of thing and getting the proper training for the online training, getting the proper programs and getting agreement. It's a process and -- and we are working towards that.
But I don't think there's any legislation that's needed -¬
REP. GRELL: Okay.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: -- at this point.
REP. GRELL: Well, I would certainly encourage that. Because we all hear from our municipalities who are still stinging from that additional cost that's being -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: So do I.
REP. GRELL: -- placed on them. I'm sure you do.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. GRELL: And certainly we're not suggesting that all training can be done that way, but where it's appropriate I would certainly encourage you to do that sooner rather than later.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Absolutely.
REP. GRELL: And thank you for your quest -- your answers.
And thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you. I -- I also echo Representative Grell's comments. We've heard from many of our local police chiefs regarding the costs and the type of courses that are necessary regarding the police officers' training. So...
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I see.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Representative Parker.
REP. PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And welcome. Colonel.
Colonel, I believe you stated that you have a full complement of about 4,600, almost 4,700 troopers.
Tell me now, what's the -- what's the ethnic and diversity make-up and the gender make-up as relates to the complement? How many women do we have and how many members of various minority communities?
DEP. COMM. HILL: Six and a half percent.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Right. It's six-and-a-half percent minorities. About five percent women?
DEP. COMM. HILL: Correct.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. PARKER: Okay. Five percent women.
And so you also noted that, I think, we'll be losing about 1,200 troopers who are eligible to retire.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: 1,200 will be eligible. I hope we don't lose them all.
REP. PARKER: So -- so one of the issues that we dealt with over the past few years has been the issue of recruitment, and I think there's been a very healthy partnership and relationship between members of this body, along with your department, in helping to sort of spread the word, particularly in large urban areas, about opportunities available for employment and careers within the department and recruitment of women, strongly encouraging the recruitment of more women and also minorities.
And I wanted to know sort of what was your philosophy and thinking and do you plan on moving in the same direction?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes. In fact, I -- I expect to expand our -- our efforts in that area.
We're -- we're talking about putting more recruiters in the area where there -- that are more ethnically diverse so that we would -- and then -- and then targeting colleges that have large ethnic populations so that we could -- we could, you know, increase our numbers.
One of the things that -- that worries me about our hiring practices in the past is that we have bubble classes, classes that are heavy with minorities that have brought our numbers up.
Well, a lot of those are reaching that
1,200 level and -- and they're going to be coming for -¬ to be eligible to retire, which could bring our numbers down, which is something I -- I really want to -- to do everything I can to prevent.
One of the problems that we've had is because we haven't had consistent cadet classes that we -- we have pools of minorities that -- that take our tests but then take other jobs because they can't wait the year.
So we're hoping by having a -- a consistent recruiting and cadet classes and targeting these areas that we're going to be able to increase those numbers and -- and I would pledge to you that we're going to do everything possible to increase those numbers.
REP. PARKER: Thank you. In addition to that, Colonel, one of the things that you noted is that because we have municipalities across the Commonwealth that are faced with the same budgetary challenges that we face here in our Commonwealth and across the nation, you're seeing some that are having to reduce, very intensely, the number of members of their local police departments and are relying more heavily on your department.
Talk to us a little bit about the increase in the number of municipalities that have been in contact with you, knowing that they need your help, versus the previous year.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Well, it's my understanding that over the last about three years there's been about 58 municipalities that have either eliminated or reduced their police departments.
Now, I mean the State Police stands ready.
I mean the -- we are the last resort. I mean if you don't have local police, obviously we are the ones that have to go in there and do it, but it does stretch us a little thin sometimes.
The vast majority of the municipalities that have done away or drastically reduced their law enforcement forces are -- are rural areas and what -¬ what that does is -- is it has -- they're small population so it doesn't look like -- well, that's not that many people, but they're spread out so far so that we have -- it takes us a long -- it increases our response time and to do things in a safe manner and things like that. So that's -- that's a problem.
But another issue is now some of the larger communities that are facing reductions, not eliminations of their police departments, and that is concerning to me, too, because generally those are areas that are also -- have a great deal of crime problems that they're dealing with.
And so they -- at the same time that they're dealing with those problems, their law enforcement capabilities are going down and we have to be ready to assist them when they need -- when they need assistance.
And so that's -- those are areas that I'm really concentrating on.
REP. PARKER: Okay. Finally, Colonel, just for the benefit of those people who are in southeastern
Pennsylvania, often get questions about this at local town meetings across the city, and that is, when we see the Pennsylvania State Trooper, when we're driving down
76 from northwest Philadelphia entering into Center City, if someone is stopped and they receive some sort of violation and/or fine for speeding, or whatever infraction it may be, explain for the record how the fine is broken down as it relates to a percentage going to the
State Police and a percentage going to the local municipality.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: None of it goes to the State Police.
REP. PARKER: None of it?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: None of it goes to the State Police.
REP. PARKER: And that -- that is because the city of Philadelphia has a full-time police department that it pays for?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Well, that's one of the reasons, but it also goes to the Commonwealth's general fund. It does not come to the State Police.
REP. PARKER: So the -- so --so when
Philadelphians -- so for Philadelphians and those who are in southeastern Pennsylvania who are watching this hearing right now, they cannot say that any of the fines or that the State Police is aggress -- are aggressively pursuing and attempting to increase the -- the number of revenue -- or amount of revenue collected during those traffic violations because it's an effort to support your budget. It is not.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Absolutely. REP. PARKER: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: It is not. Thank you for that opportunity.
REP. PARKER: Thank you for clarifying that for the record.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
Representative Gordon Denlinger.
REP. DENLINGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And good morning, Colonel.
A couple of things. First, of course, I want to add my name to the list -- the growing list of those who support the growth of your contingent. We applaud that move toward more cadet classes and hope to see your numbers get -- get back up to strength.
I would like to add an informational request to the earlier items from Representative O'Brien, who I appreciated his questions very much.
If you could also add to that maybe a roughly ten-year look-back on the number of municipalities, townships, and bureaus who have turned over their policing to you at the State Police.
I think that might help us on this committee a picture of the trend and what's been — what's been happening.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Certainly. REP. DENLINGER: So if that could be sent through the Committee Chairman -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Certainly.
REP. DENLINGER: -- that would be appreciated.
And then, finally, noticing the line that you have for commercial vehicle inspections, I'm noticing that you have an eight percent increase, 643,000. I think that that line is -- is split federal and state.
Maybe 80 percent federally funded, 20 percent state.
But to the extent that it is an eight percent increase, I'm wondering if you could just share with us the need for added dollars on that line.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yeah. Go ahead and answer.
DEP. COMM. FREDERICK: One of the main reasons for that is basically the federal funding has remained stagnant over the years. So with the increase to the -- just contractual increases to our -- to our
Commonwealth, with regard to salary increases and longevity increases for our troopers, and it's basically to cover -- help cover that. It's not -- can you hear me?
It's not -- there's really no increase in operating or anything else. It's just basically because our -- our federal funding has remained stagnant so we need to keep increasing the -- the state funds to cover -- to cover those differences.
REP. DENLINGER: Keeping pace with routine costs?
DEP. COMM. FREDERICK: Yes.
REP. DENLINGER: Very good. Okay. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
Representative Paul Costa.
REP. PAUL COSTA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning, Colonel. I want to help you do a little bit of math here and stick with me.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Good. I can certainly use all the help I can get with that.
REP. PAUL COSTA: One of my pet peeves is the issue with Westmoreland County and you guys patrolling and this -- the people of Westmoreland County aren't paying.
I got this right out of your Greensburg barracks. You have 23 municipalities that you're patrolling full-time. Of those municipalities four of them have over 85,000 people. There's a total of 135,000 people. So that's over 60 percent. So with all things being equal, 60 percent of your budget for the Greensburg barrack should tell you how much we're spending on those municipalities.
The reason it's a pet peeve for me is one of those municipalities has 40,000 people. That's a lot of people. And I understand the small, rural areas where they can't afford police departments. Obviously this municipality can. They choose not to.
I live in Wilkins Township, and I used to be a commissioner there, and our budget when I was there was a $3 million budget. One million of it went to the police department. So, again, all things being equal, one-third of our budget was paying for our police department.
Chairman Markosek, who lives in Monroeville municipality, which is very close to the Greensburg barrack, has 30,000 and their police department cost them
$7 million.
So if our numbers are right we're looking close to -- it's costing the state -- everyone else in the state $17 million to patrol those areas in
Westmoreland County, just those four different -- four municipalities.
Again, I -- I have an equity issue that everyone else seems to be paying for this small borough, and I have two municipalities that are struggling. I have -- actually I represent 15. Several of them are struggling, but two of them farm their police out to neighboring communities.
What's going to happen one day when all these communities that are struggling say, I'm done, you
-- we can't afford to do it anymore? You take it over.
How are you going to handle that and what can we do to prevent that from happening?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: That would be a -- a nightmare for me, as a matter of fact. That would be very, very difficult for us. I'm -- I'm hoping -- and I know with the economic times that this is a trend that seems to be increasing.
But that would be very difficult for the
State Police. We're already stretched very thin, and I don't know how we would -- we would accomplish that. We would do the best we could. That's all I could tell you.
REP. PAUL COSTA: Thank you. And that's my point, is that -- why is this allowed to continue to go on? I'm -- I'm not suggesting that Hempfield or Derry or any of those other ones get a police department, but I think that they should have to pitch in and help pay.
Again, I think it's an equity issue that if they pitch in and help you out that you'd have no issue with hiring more police -- or state troopers for other areas to help everybody else out.
Call me crazy. I don't know.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I would never do that, Representative.
REP. PAUL COSTA: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: You bet.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
The next representative is Mauree Gingrich, and Representative Gingrich has a -- has special love for the Pennsylvania State Police. She was the daughter of a
Pennsylvania State Police trooper, and her father just passed away. And the first comment she had after she came back from the service was what a great job the
Pennsylvania State Police did that day.
So on behalf of the Committee, thank you for what you do for those fallen troopers.
REP. GINGRICH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning, Commissioner Noonan.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Good morning.
REP. GINGRICH: You're a very fortunate man. You have joined probably one of the finest complements of people in the state and probably can compete with any across the nation. So we're very proud of what you do for us. My question relates to your seven laboratories that function across the state. No bias intended, but I do happen to have one of my remaining
State Police brothers associated with that operation.
Makes me curious about the funding to run those laboratories, which are very much forensic criminal labs -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Correct.
REP. GINGRICH: -- valuable to police work across the state, and work is done for other departments and -- and other agencies.
Can you talk to us a little bit about what those labs do for us as members, for those at home listening, and how they're funded now and then ultimately what do you project for the future in regard to some of the fiscal challenges we have here in Pennsylvania about that funding? Have you ever considered the possibility of needing to charge for some of those services outside of the State Police function?
And I thank you, Commissioner, for that answer in advance.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: You bet. This is one of the key functions for the State Police, that we provide. It's -- most of our requests come from local municipalities and like that, and -- and we do all types of different forensic evidence, handwriting analysis, gunshots, identifying guns. There's a wide variety.
But one of the things that's -- that's been happening is that I think we have our -- our television friends to thank for that, there's -- there's been a tremendous expectation for forensic evidence in any kind of a trial that — that you could have.
Everybody watches TV and they can solve everything in an hour and there's always forensic evidence.
There is a tremendous -- I think an increase in awareness of this type of evidence, so it becomes critical to the law enforcement community to provide it. Some of this is extremely expensive, these
-- these -- these procedures and things, and I am concerned about the upkeep of some of our laboratories.
The facilities themselves just are not where I would like them to be. I expect this to continue.
In particular, we're seeing a tremendous increase in -- in the DNA evidence. There are backlogs in both the samples that we received from people that are convicted of crimes that we're having to deal with and also there's a -- a lengthy waiting period when you submit a sample to the -- to be examined of over -¬ almost 270 days, on an average case. Now, extreme -- extremely -- like a violent killing, like murder or rape, we will move that to the head of the line. But on average.
So these are something that I'm -- I'm very aware of, and there is a laboratory fund that -- that -¬ that does provide for our equipment, but it is not -¬ does not provide for personnel.
DEP. COMM. HILL: Right.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Right. That's the breakdown.
One of the difficulties is that many times -- is that the -- somebody that is convicted of a crime in which our laboratory was used, that cost is assessed to the person that's convicted. However, our collection is like ten percent of -- of what's -- what's ordered.
So there is -- this is an area that's very expensive, and I -- I just see it increasing over the next -- next ten years. I'm -- I'm -- I'm sure that it is going to.
REP. GINGRICH: Thank you. And that's -¬ that is a critical service that I don't see us being able to back away from providing.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Absolutely not.
REP. GINGRICH: You didn't answer my question, however. Have you given thought about generating revenues in some other fashion to supply that fund?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: No, I have not. I have not given any thoughts yet to -- yet to other methods of that, but I've only been here a number of days.
REP. GINGRICH: You're new to the job.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Right.
REP. GINGRICH: Well, you're with a great support group. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I -- I -- I have a lot of brainiacs at the table with me, yes.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
Representative Ron Waters.
REP. WATERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you for -- for being here. I hope I'm not asking a question that was asked before I -¬
I arrived.
But, one, the radio equipment, because you have to go in a lot of rural areas to where I know for me with a cell phone. Now -- or even my GPS, I get a lot of dropped signals.
And I'd like to ask how are you managing that and is that creating a problem for your operations? COMMISSIONER NOONAN: There are concerns that we have considering the radio system and exactly for that. The -- some of the rural areas our coverage is -¬ is not as -- as robust as we would hope.
I found out recently the fact when leaves come out on the trees this can affect the radio signals and if you get out in these wooded areas that it makes it much more difficult for -- for transmissions.
On the whole, I think we have pretty good coverage, but there are certainly areas that we're working on and we're working closely with the Office of
Administration who provides that system to us to see if we can improve upon it.
There are -- there are some issues with the system right now.
REP. WATERS: I'm sure it's a safety issue. I, years ago, before coming here, used to work for the Philadelphia Parking Authority, and I had a radio, hand held radio, and there were certain places where I would go to where I don't want to be out of communication with the dispatcher.
And I was just -- for -- for public safety, and my safety in particular -- that I just thought it was important that I don't have that — that -- that dropped signal and I -- I was just a little concerned about how that may affect you because you have a large area to cover.
And speaking of the -- of the rural areas,
I heard you explain to Representative Gingrich about the forensic and other matters that your department has to undertake for -- I don't believe that's across the state.
I think that's only -- like with
Philadelphia, I believe that Philadelphia has the ability, capability of doing that themselves. Correct?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Correct. Correct.
REP. WATERS: Probably Allegheny County and other places.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: There's some that do have their own laboratories unit. I think DNA though -¬
DEP. COMM. HILL: Philadelphia has their
DNA.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: They have their own unit though. But then we will also obviously -- you want to run -- if you have a DNA sample, you want to run it against as many different groups as you can. Like we have -- we have -- I don't know how many, but like thousands of people.
DEP. COMM. HILL: 233,000.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: 233,000 samples. So you want to check it against that. So we work closely with Philadelphia.
No, Philadelphia has their own laboratory, but we're seeing most departments, most -- mid to small departments, they're all -- they all come to the State
Police.
REP. WATERS: They're -- they're -- they're more dependent on you than others who have their own?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Absolutely.
REP. WATERS: And I know that you a couple years ago have also been given the assignment to cover certain streets in -- even in Philadelphia, to free up some of the Philadelphia Police Department so they could concentrate on high crime areas rather than patrolling state -- state roads.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Uh-huh.
REP. WATERS: And — but can you give me an idea about how many municipalities don't have local -¬ don't have their own police department and the responsibility of covering it?
I just come over from Dover, and I went through a lot of rural areas up there and I didn't see any police officers along the way. I wasn't looking for any but I didn't see any either.
But -- but the -- but how many municipalities are totally dependent on the State Police for their -- to cover their patrolling and response -¬ responding to emergencies?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: 2,573 municipalities.
REP. WATERS: 2,500 municipalities don't have their own police department?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Correct.
REP. WATERS: So they're totally dependent on the State Police -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: That's right.
REP. WATERS: -- to have that?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. WATERS: And so that comes out of the state budget?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. WATERS: So going to my colleague over here, Costa's point, so that means -- how do we have equality -- or equity when it comes down to a matter like that?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I don't know. We are the police force of last resort, and so that's -- that's
-- that falls to us to do it.
But, you know, I know I've heard a lot of people, as I've been talking, walking around the Capitol, that -- that -- people are upset both ways about it. But, yes, I -- I understand your point.
REP. WATERS: Right. Philadelphia fortunately picks up their own costs in terms of -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. WATERS: — enforcement. So we talked about this. Now, I want to ask you one more question if the chair doesn't -- doesn't mind.
Your recruitment, I heard you mention earlier you go to the colleges and recruit, and I'm not sure if you are missing another opportunity if you go to the colleges. I don't know how many students go to college and become state troopers.
I do know that there are probably a lot of people who do go to -- who are in high school that probably haven't looked at becoming a state trooper as a career goal. And I don't know if -- if you're also going into the high schools.
I know -- I'm sure that there's a lot of people who may be -- be -- just having the -- the desire to look at becoming a state trooper. I'm telling you, you guys carry yourself in a magnificent way. There's nothing like the way that you guys pull a person over and you step out of your car and you have your -- your hat and your boots and it's -- well shined and you're very polite. I don't know. That it can become intimidating to some people, but — and I'm sure — I'm sure that maybe it could make some people feel as though that's something beyond my ability to aspire to.
But do you ever go to the high schools, especially in urban communities where they have large populations of potential candidates?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes, we do.
REP. WATERS: Cadets.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes, we have a program for that. Right now we have -- with the classes coming up, that's why I mentioned the colleges. Because those are the people that would be most available to us to hire right now.
But, yeah, we do have a program, because I see that you -- you start thinking about your career choices when you're in high school.
REP. WATERS: Exactly.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Like what am I going to do? So, yes, we do have a program for that, and we have -- we're putting -- and as I said before in answer to a previous question, we're putting more of our recruiters in urban areas so that we can get the word out to there.
Because maybe that wouldn't be something that -- that comes -- the first thing that comes to their mind, you know.
REP. WATERS: And they understand that they have to be good citizens if they ever -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP WATERS: -- want to become a police officer. It would be a pro -- proactive pro-safety movement along with it, too.
And my last question, Mr. Chairman, is that
I hear that you're building another facility in the -- in the Philadelphia area? Is that correct? I was told that. I might have missed it in the -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I believe we're studying -- we're studying about putting a headquarters building in there, and that's one of our plans that we have -¬
REP. WATERS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: -- to put one there, yes.
REP. WATERS: Okay. I thank you,
Mr. Chairman. Thank you for that.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
Representative Scott Petri.
REP. PETRI: Thank you very much for appearing today. I wanted to switch gears a little bit to the LCE, the Liquor Control Enforcement. Do you presently have enough complement to deal with the various nuisance bars and the enforcement of the various regulations associated with the LCA -- the LCE activities?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: We're currently down about 25 percent in our enforcement agents. And that's something that I -- we wish to address and -- and get back up to a full complement. If we had a full complement, I think we would be able to obviously do a few more things.
REP. PETRI: And what would a full complement constitute at present time, if you have that number?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: 140 would be a full complement.
REP. PETRI: Okay. So you're missing somewhere around 30?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. PETRI: Somewhere around there.
Based upon your knowledge of the regulations in the Liquor Code, do you think that some relief as to some of those enforcement duties would be helpful in better utilizing your resources? And what I want to speak to particularly is, as I understand it, there's a regulation that requires that any licensee may not have any noise emanate from its premises so that the interpretation presently is that even if a door opens and say you have a -- you were having a Super Bowl party and the noise emanates out, a neighbor can file a complaint which you're obligated to go out and investigate.
As opposed to what we traditionally deal with which is your nuisance bar where there's illegal activities going on, drugs, shootings, you know, all kind of various serious crime.
Do you need some relief in that area or do you think that you'll be able to — that your resources are being wisely used at the present time?
DEP. SECRETARY BIVENS: I'm not sure that it would be possible to limit those types of complaints coming in.
With that said, there would be no enforcement action simply because a door was open and -¬ and noise came out. There would be an investigation initiated and we would determine whether or not this met the criteria of a nuisance bar and, if so, then appropriate action would be taken, both directly in terms of fine and also potentially against the license. REP. PETRI: Yeah. Shifting to casinos a moment. We've now had casinos on board for a number of years. I guess I -- I'm going to say two years, but maybe that's not correct either.
But in that time period, I think we all have gained some knowledge and experience as a
Commonwealth, having really no prior background before, and one of the things I argued from day one when we started talking about casinos was that the liquor license that they're issued doesn't really fit an eating establishment or a restaurant or any of the other existing classifications we currently have in the law.
Have you found that it would be useful or helpful to the LCE in enforcing the laws of the
Commonwealth if you had a new license category that would be a casino liquor license that would be restricted to someone or an entity that had a licensed gaming facility? Would that help you in perhaps better enforcing the rules and the like that we think should go on with regard to casino activity?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I'll -- I'll have to get back to you on that one. I haven't really looked into that particular issue, but I'd be happy to get back to the committee about that. Because that's an interesting point. REP. PETRI: If you could. And when — really my concern is -- and I'm also on Liquor -- a member of the Liquor Committee.
As the committee continues to consider new provisions, modernization of some of the code provisions with regard to what existing licensees can do, it just seems like it could potentially create more problems.
As -- just as a quick for instance, there's a bill that would allow a restaurant to have off-catering premises, off-catering facilities. It would allow a restaurant to sell up to three bottles of wine.
Well, if I'm a casino and I have a restaurant license, does that mean I'm suddenly in the wine business? And is that what we contemplate in the legislature?
I guess there could be 253 different -¬ plus one Governor -- different opinions on that, but I know what my opinion is. And, therefore, if you could investigate that.
And let me just say that my guess is that the casinos don't really want to open this can of worms, if you will, but I think the can is open and we need to do deal with it in some sort of way. So thank you.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: You bet.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you. I'd like to acknowledge the presence of
Adam Harris from the 82nd District.
Representative Deb Kula.
REP. KULA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good afternoon, Colonel. I guess it's almost afternoon. I was -- in the Governor's budget address he talked about leased vehicles, and we had the
DGS Secretary the other day talking about looking into all that.
Now, will this in any way affect your complement of vehicles?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: We -- we do have some leased vehicles. I don't believe that that's -- I'm sure that would be -- we would be affected by that because we're a law enforcement group.
Most of our vehicles are -- are purchased, and that's our patrol cars. And that's by far the vast bulk of the -- of the vehicles that we use, are our patrol cars, and so I don't believe we would be affected.
REP. KULA: And speaking of patrol cars.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Uh-huh.
REP. KULA: Are you -- are you needing a changeover in that area? I mean are -- are -- is your complement of -- of patrol cars what you would like it to be? COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I believe it's adequate. We -- we -- we studied that very closely. The key thing with -- with our vehicles is that we maintain a rotation.
Patrol vehicles, because of the equipment that's in them, they spend a lot of time idling, if you see them by the — on the roadside construction. So their mileage does not reflect the use that they get, plus they're being driven on different shifts and things like that.
So once they reach about a hundred thousand miles, they're pretty shot. In fact, we -- we -- we assume because of the idling time, that there are -¬ there are in actuality 200,000 miles on the motor.
So that's our key concern, and -- and
Governor Corbett has solved it -- we just ordered cars and so we're on schedule for that, to keep our fleet up to date.
REP. KULA: And we just had a conversation about the -- the idling of the -- of the vehicles. Is that because of the computer system within that vehicle?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes. Yes. You -¬
REP. KULA: And is there some way of correcting that? I mean I have actually -- as a former district judge and State Police coming to my office, it amazed me that a vehicle, a State Police vehicle, could sit outside and idle for the time of a hearing, which may be two hours long, and with the price of -- of gasoline,
I -- it -- it just seems to be such a waste of resources.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: We -- we -- there -¬ at one time there was a need to do that because of the computers in the vehicle having to reboot and then there were some -- some -- but we have addressed that, and that's not necessary anymore. And if they're in at your hearing, now they should be able to turn the vehicle off and then turn it on when they come back out to the hearing
REP. KULA: If I could just touch on — on one thing. The conversation has been around municipalities without police departments and -- and the
State Police covering.
Are there municipalities -- and probably throughout the state I'm thinking -- and I know there are some municipalities that probably the State Police never or -- or very seldom responds to that particular area.
Is that the case?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Well, we patrol those areas.
REP. KULA: You patrol them. Correct. COMMISSIONER NOONAN: We patrol them. So, you know, if -- is there some areas that never call?
Perhaps. But I would -- I would guess that -- that most of those municipalities, eventually there's a domestic dispute. There's a liquor complaint.
REP. KULA: But there's -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: There's something.
REP. KULA: But every proposal has shown that it's a per capita fee that -- that municipalities would pay. But to me that -- that always seemed particularly unfair for the fact that there could be a municipality that has 1,000 people that the State Police are there every single day for some reason, because of a high crime area, a high traffic area, whatever that might be. But you may have municipalities with 14, 15,000 people that the State Police may respond to that particular area less seldom.
So it never seemed fair to me to base it upon just a per capita issue but more of what type of response is needed by the Pennsylvania State Police.
I -- I don't know if you have any particular feelings on that matter. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I -- I do not. It's
-- I do not have any feelings on that because the -¬ the -- it's basically our responsibility and I feel that my job -- we provide the service. I mean that's what we're supposed to do.
And what's fair or not, smart people like you can figure that out. That's — I don't think that's for me.
CHAIRMAN ADOLPH: Thank you for the compliment.
Representative Mike Peifer.
REP. PEIFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Commissioner, for being here today. I have a similar issue whereby I represent the
Poconos region, Wayne, Pike, and Monroe Counties.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. PEIFER: And we have a situation where our population takes off between Memorial Day and Labor
Day. We have two Pocono races. We have a number of state parks, a number of lakes and vacationers, and we've always tried, since I've been elected for the last four years, similar to Mr. Grell, that we've always tried to add new troopers to our regions.
When I would request new troopers, we'd always hear that, you know, Mike, you have a funny situation, which we can understand, in that, you know, for six months you have a set population. For another six months you might quadruple or triple your population, and that's a problem.
It's hard for you -- the response I get -¬ it's hard for you to allocate new troopers to that station for maybe six months, or that county for six months.
Is there any way with the new classes of cadets that we could work on that situation? Maybe allocate them, you know, for several months or just work on trying to increase those complements of troopers for those areas?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes. To your -- the short answer is yes. This is something I want to take a look at. We have formulas, but -- based on population, arrests, calls, and things like that.
But one of the things I want to be doing is meeting with the -- the area commanders and my troop commanders and to see specifically situations like you're -- you're bringing up, if there's something we can do.
If -- if I can -- the closer I can get to my full complement, the better I can serve your needs.
It's the way I feel.
But if I'm -- if I'm -- if I don't have enough troopers, it's probably going to be more difficult. But if we can continue with the classes, that is something I would definitely look at.
REP. PEIFER: And I think that's what we're all excited about. You know, when we hear new, you know, classes of cadets, I mean we're all excited here because we know that's new troopers and you have a very good reputation where we are and we want you on the street and we want — we want to see you. It's just that we -- we face these challenges and, you know, we get -- when you ask for -- when you have these different -- difficult situations -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Sure.
REP. PEIFER: -- you know, we -- we understand what you're dealing with. But we're just hopeful that we can allocate a few of those cadets up in the northeast.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: You bet.
REP. PEIFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
Representative Matt Smith.
REP. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Colonel, and thank you all for your service to the Commonwealth.
Just a quick follow-up. You had mentioned earlier that the State Police currently has a DNA, I think, backlog -- COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. SMITH: — you said. And as you know,
Senator Pileggi is proposing legislation to expand the list of crimes for which DNA collection is required.
Is that something that will result in a significant increase in the number of DNA collections and can the State Police handle that additional burden as it relates to DNA collection?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: No. We can't handle it right now. It would -- it's -- it's our best estimates that this would increase our workload about 400 percent.
Our -- our -- our backlog now is approximately 60 days for these samples. It could go way beyond that. We will need about 35 analysts, and we also -- the equipment is expensive. We're going to have -- we would have to get some other equipment, as well as the facility.
And the one thing I would -- I would just like to caution. It is not something that -- that the people could say, okay, go and do it and we could flip a switch.
It would take at least a year for us to get ready. It takes a year to train these analysts. So it's something that -- that whether we do -- if --if we do decide to do it, it has to be planned or there has to be a planned growth to our DNA laboratory and I have to find a new facility, because there's no place to put the -¬ the required analysts right now.
REP. SMITH: Do you — do you have any cost estimate on the increase, the 400 percent increase or can you get back -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: 13.5 million.
REP. SMITH: Okay. 13.5 million. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: That would be through the first year. Then after that, to maintain it, it's $9 million a year after that.
REP. SMITH: Okay. So 13.5 million in the first year getting it up and running and then an additional 9 million -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Per year.
REP. SMITH: Per year?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Correct.
REP. SMITH: Okay. And just to touch on something that was raised earlier. I want to add my concern about the local municipalities enjoying the State
Police protection without paying for it.
You know, does the administration or does the Governor have a position on that particular issue? And the reason I ask is it seems like in many other areas a lot of the burden, the discretion, and control is being pushed out to the local municipalities, and this seems -¬ seems to be an area where we're headed in the -- in the opposite direction, where we're pushing everything back to the state and forcing the State Police to absorb a greater burden that perhaps you shouldn't.
You know, Secretary Krancer was here last week and basically made the point that local municipalities in the flood control context should be the ones to decide what's a priority and what isn't a priority and why should someone from Montgomery County pay for a local project in Mount Lebanon in Allegheny
County?
And it would seem to me that the same argument would hold true here. Why should someone in
Mount Lebanon pay for the State Police protection that
Hempfield enjoys, that they certainly deem a priority but that they're not, at least currently, willing to pay for it?
Does the administration have a position on that particular issue?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Not that I'm aware of.
REP. SMITH: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
Representative Jeff Pyle.
REP. PYLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Over here, Colonel.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: There you are. Oh, there you are.
REP. PYLE: There we are. First of all, thanks for being here today. I want to preface my comments and questions with I grew up on a street with two corporals and two troopers. We -- we had a very, very safe neighborhood. And it was much appreciated.
And, in fact, I, believe it or not, just got a text message from my sister that the State Police out of the Kittanning barracks this morning apprehended the guy who stole her fiance's pickup truck, which I'm also quite thankful for. So...
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: We time these things for these hearings, by the way.
REP. PYLE: That's -- that's amazing. Well done. Well done, sir.
My question pertains to the PICS -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. PYLE: — system. Pennsylvania
Instant Check System. As I'm made aware, there's also a National Instant Check System.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Uh-huh.
REP. PYLE: PICS and NICS. This past weekend was -- was pretty active among the sportsmen community with gun shows and whatnot and I, in fact, happened to be one of the people held up on a purchase for about a half hour.
My question, given this economic climate where we're looking at every sector to cut here, to add there, to shift this way, is Pennsylvania's instant check system redundant?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: No.
REP. PYLE: Seeing as how we have a
National Instant Check System already.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: It's not redundant and here's the reason why. In our system we have approximately 580,000 medical -- mental records of people who were not allowed to purchase firearms, and that is not in the national system. And so that is a -- a big concern.
Until we could -- and we are working to try to -- to get -- there's some -- there's some differences in the way we do things in Pennsylvania that make it difficult for us to put -- put those records into the national system. There are some advantages to PICS outside of that, but for right now until that issue could be addressed, I would -- I would say that the systems are not redundant and -- and we probably need the PICS system.
REP. PYLE: Well, the reason I bring it up is my good friend, the gentleman from Delmont,
Westmoreland County, is floating a bill right now asking for co-sponsors about in the event that PICS should go down, which it didn't go down the whole way last weekend, it just slowed to a crawl.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Uh-huh.
REP. PYLE: It took me about 45 minutes, you know, to complete a legal transaction, that our system automatically kicks all of our applicants into the
NICS system so as to not restrain trade or reduce commerce and, you know, what -- what would your opinion of something like that be?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Well, I haven't studied it, but just -- just being aware of -- of some of the more violent acts that have taken place throughout the country recently, it's from -- been from people that had mental health problems that purchased guns and so until we have that issue addressed with the mental health records, I would be cautious about -- about doing that. REP. PYLE: Okay. Next question. I don't get to watch a lot of television, but I -- I -- and this is for a friend of mine who couldn't be here right now.
There's a very popular program on the
History Channel right now that deals with motorcyclists.
Is it a gang or is it a club?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Ahh. It depends on what you're doing. If you're doing legal activity, then it's a club. But if you're committing crimes, it's a gang.
REP. PYLE: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, one more comment, and then
I'll end. Please add my name to the list of supporters who feel we're -- we're long overdue for -- for a couple of cadet classes.
And, in fact, I'd -- I'd be welcome to enlarging the complement should that be deemed economically viable. I come from a very small community and the guys in the Kittanning barracks and the guys in
Indiana, White Township barracks, I have a lot of friends in there, and they are doing amazing work in our community for how spread out they are.
Kittanning barracks, being for example, goes the whole way down into Allegheny County and -- and patrols Route 28, SR 28, and the drug busts that Santucci and those guys are -- are pulling off are -- are spectacular, to say the least, and -- and my hats off to him and to Tom Dubovi and the -- and the rest of the
Kittanning barracks and also Brad Shields over in White
Township.
And thank you very much for being here today.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Thank you.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
Representative Mario Scavello.
REP. SCAVELLO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And good morning -- or good afternoon,
Colonel. I want to go back. There was a comment made earlier in regard to the growth of the -- of the budget -- of your budget from -- it coming from -- from the -- from the Motor License Fund.
And I see that it's continuing, and it's something that I think we need to address at some point.
I believe when Governor Rendell took office it was about
67, 68 percent, and we're up to about 75 percent now.
And that percentage is still continuing, and I know it's not something that -- that -- it's happened over a period of years, and it's something that we need to address at some point.
There was -- there was also another comment -- and could you tell me what the -- what the cost of the barracks in Philadelphia is costing the
Commonwealth? And I believe it's there four years now.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: You mean the -- the barracks -- would that be K?
Yeah. There's a plan -- what I was speaking of was there's a planned building.
REP. SCAVELLO: I was hoping we'd pull that back since the governor from Philadelphia is no longer there. That -- that cost is -- you know, I know they've pulled the troopers out from everywhere.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. SCAVELLO: So — so we're going to continue that I guess?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Until somebody tells me to stop, yeah.
REP. SCAVELLO: There was a comment made about the tickets and the -- and the municipalities that when -- when the ticket is cut now, I know we're going to be changing it, 50 percent of that ticket went to the municipality and 50 percent came to the Commonwealth?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. SCAVELLO: In Philadelphia's case,
I -- I heard her say that a hundred percent is coming to the Commonwealth? I don't think that's accurate. 50 percent is going to Philly right now.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: 50 percent.
REP. SCAVELLO: Is still going to
Philadelphia. Correct?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Philadelphia. It doesn't come to us. It goes to the Motor Vehicle Fund.
And I -¬
REP. SCAVELLO: So 50 percent goes to Motor
Vehicle and 50 percent goes to the city?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Correct.
REP. SCAVELLO: So that they -- they are getting 50 percent of those tickets.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. SCAVELLO: I -- I just want to wish you the very best, and I'm very supportive of an increased complement.
And I also agree with Representative Peifer and his comments about looking to see -- you know, there -- there are times where we're the third largest city in the Poconos when that race is going on, in the -¬ in the -- in the state. Third largest city in the state. And to -- to have extra troopers for those events would really help us.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Absolutely.
REP. SCAVELLO: Thank you very much. CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
Representative Sabatina.
REP. SABATINA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner, could you tell me where Philadelphier is?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I think it's in the southeast, New Jersey.
REP. SCAVELLO: Touche.
REP. SABATINA: I couldn't understand. I'm from Philadelphia, but I -- I didn't know where
Philadelphier was. So thank you.
REP. WATERS: You go, Jack.
CHAIRMAN ADOLPH: It shows the diversity of this state.
Representative Doug Reichley.
REP. REICHLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
If you wait long enough, he sounds like he's from New York and Boston later in the day. So it's a...this is going to sound like -- this conversation sounds like the country mouse and the city mouse, and we keep going back and forth on the issue of the municipalities.
Can you sort of clarify a little bit, first off, I think a few years ago the city of Philadelphia asked for the State Police to assume a greater role, at least in the patrol functions of the Schuylkill and I-95, and we were trying to clarify with staff the degree to which the city was being paid to perform any functions in lieu of an expanded presence by the State Police.
Can you address for this body what exactly the arrangement is with Philadelphia in terms of patrol functions on 95 and the Schuylkill?
DEP. SECRETARY BIVENS: They don't pay us.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: We don't -- we don't have an arrangement with Philadelphia as far as -- for them paying for that. No, they do not. No, we -- we do that.
REP. REICHLEY: All right. Is there any collaboration with the city highway patrol?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Collaboration, oh, absolutely. We work -- we work very close which the -¬ the highway patrol and the -- and the police department in Philadelphia.
You know, if we needed assistance, they could come and we -- we try to respond to them if -- if they have any problems.
REP. REICHLEY: But your area of jurisdiction or patrol is those two major highways. Is that right?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: That's correct. REP. REICHLEY: So if you're doing patrolling on the Schuylkill and 95, what's the highway patrol doing?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I guess there's some other roads in Philadelphia. I would guess that that's what they're working.
REP. REICHLEY: You're not aware of what?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: They've been diverted. Yes, they've been diverted to the precincts.
I think the -- I think the -- the intent was to try to relieve -- relieve the city of Philadelphia in their high crime areas. They were going to put some of those people in -- into the -- into the higher crime areas and that was the plan, as I understand it.
REP. REICHLEY: Okay. But there had been some discussion about a -- an assertion, I'll say, by the city that if they did not receive more in state funding they were going to withdraw, pull back from certain functions.
Are you able to inform us or the staff that you have is able to inform us of that?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I have not heard that about Philadelphia and that would make me very nervous if that -- if that were the case.
REP. REICHLEY: In regard to making arrangements with municipalities, I have the municipality that had the largest growth over the last ten years.
Scott Snyder doesn't look any older or worse for wear since he left Troop M in Bethlehem.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: We treat him good.
REP. REICHLEY: Okay. That's good. But
Lower Macungie Township in Lehigh County, largest growth of any municipality.
Has -- have you had the opportunity or has the administration at least discussed this idea, which
Senator Ward had introduced in the Senate and I've introduced in the House, of allowing municipalities to contract with the State Police, to enter into a contractual arrangement so that if -- I'll say Lower
Macungie, just for an example, if they want to have three troopers 24/7.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Uh-huh.
REP. REICHLEY: And you would come back and say the cost of the troopers is X amount based upon salary, benefits, equipment, whatever, and if you, the municipality, want to have that ensured coverage, you pay us X amount. If there's an emergency on I-7 8 where you need to have a trooper go up there or there's a homicide in another municipality, they would get diverted. That's understandable. But other than that, they contract with you.
Have you had any chance to -- to reflect upon that or discuss that with the administration?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: I have had discussions about that. I've discussed it with Senator
Ward, as a matter of fact.
But I don't know that -- I don't know that there's a position that the administration has taken on that. And -- and one thing that — that you should bear in mind that the cost of a trooper is -- far exceeds the cost of a municipal police officer generally. So, you know -- so you have to take that into consideration.
But I am not aware of -- it's an idea and I understand they do that in Maryland in -- in some areas so that is -- that is something we could consider.
REP. REICHLEY: And recognizing the cost of trooper may be more than a municipal police officer, that's the choice then of the governing body of the municipality.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes.
REP. REICHLEY: So they can evaluate that.
Excuse me. Based upon feedback from their residents, they say, we are willing to pay for that or we want to go down the road of forming our own police force or enter into a regional police force. But that -- COMMISSIONER NOONAN: That's correct.
REP. REICHLEY: But that would be an option there.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: That would be an option.
REP. REICHLEY: Is that something -¬ recognizing Representative Peifer's example, is that something that could address that growth spurt he sustains during the summer where the municipality can say, we're willing to pay X amount to ensure that we have
State Police coverage?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: If we implemented something like that, that -- that probably could address it. There are some issues though that -- that concern me with that, in that I have a certain amount of complement.
So you contract for, let's say, five. Now, how do I guarantee that I'm not going to lose five people somewhere else and they're just going to take them and they're not going to increase my budget?
That -- that -- that would concern me, because we allocate the troopers right now based on a -¬ on a fairly rigid formula of -- of incidents and things like that so that we can equitably distribute them.
And I would -- you know, there's also the issue of, well, wealthier communities, they get the State
Police and the -- and the poorer ones don't. So there are issues.
But I'm certainly open to discuss any of -¬ any of -- anything like that.
REP. REICHLEY: I think it could be a self-sustaining economic formula because you're only hiring as many as you pay for.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Right.
REP. REICHLEY: And, therefore, it wouldn't necessarily have an impact on your complement distribution or on your overall budget. People are going to pay for how many troopers they want to hire.
I'm going to a second situation.
Representative Peifer had asked you about LCE enforcement and I'm concerned -- I'll take it away from this hearing if I could talk to you and your staff -¬
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Sure.
REP. REICHLEY: -- at a certain point afterwards about what seems to be, I'll say, an inconsistent level of enforcement on small games of chance violations from private clubs and I believe LCE is vested with the authority to -- to prosecute. Is that correct?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Investigate, yes. REP. REICHLEY: All right. I think that -¬ it seems to me that the nuisance bars is where you need to be addressing the focus there, not necessarily in private clubs that are otherwise engaging in very law-abiding activities and maybe there's a need to amend those current laws to -- to reflect that.
The last question I had is, I think the
Morning Call recently ran a front page article that there have been 2,400 cases perhaps of minor thefts, if not in that casino, in casinos overall, and it may be a matter of somebody stealing a chip or two.
Are those de minimis violations? Do you actually get involved in prosecuting those?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: No, they're -¬ they're not de minimus, and we do prosecute in those things.
That's -- that's a big issue with the casinos. People go around the country doing this. They steal chips. You know, put in ten, take two back.
I mean it is -- it is a -- a -- an issue with the casinos. So we do -- we do try to pursue those when we can -- we can catch them.
The casinos -- the casinos, as you know, have cameras everywhere, so generally that's -- that's how we're able to do something. REP. REICHLEY: If you're not regarding this as de minimis, is that having an impact on the capacity of the State Police to effectively monitor illegal activities and the time away it takes for your troopers to go to a preliminary hearing or pursue court
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: No, not -- not really. Because it's -- it's just the gaming troopers that are -- that are involved in those investigations.
So if they -- if they are going away, they're going away from the casino. They're not going away from their normal patrol duties or anything like that.
REP. REICHLEY: Okay. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: Thank you.
Representative Scott Perry.
REP. PERRY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And -- and over here, Mr. Commissioner, on your right.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Oh, okay.
REP. PERRY: On your right.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: All right. Thank you.
REP. PERRY: Congratulations. I have two questions. I'll try to be as brief as I can. Do you envision any restructuring of MPOETC such that it would make it more affordable for the municipalities to send their -- their law enforcement officials to training and -- and if you do envision any restructuring, of what might that be?
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Yes. We are looking at -- as I had mentioned earlier -- about some online training. However, the costs initially may be more than the training we're providing. Now, we have to look -¬ over the long term that would be -- would be something we could do.
But we are in a -- in a project with the
Office of Administration right now to try to do that. I mean it is apparently -- it's not so much the cost of the training. It's the time away from their departments that seems to be the sticking point.
And I can tell you, I met with the chiefs and -- the Pennsylvania Chiefs of Police. It is something I'm very aware of, since they mention it to me every time they see me, and it is something I -- I intend to -- to accomplish as quickly as possible.
REP. PERRY: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
Of course, they mention it to us as well.
The other question I had is -- is I -- I received some complaints or inquiries regarding how a trooper is allocated -- I guess the best way to put it, is he might be listed as serving in a particular barracks, but there's questions whether the individual, that trooper is actually at that barracks. He's physically -- he's -- he's listed as that's where he's -¬ where he's serving, but he's physically elsewhere.
Is that -- that a troop -- is that true?
Is that a current practice? And if it is, will that change or how will individual communities be able to know that you have 15 troopers on the books serving out of this barracks at this town and all 15 are here as opposed to seven are here and seven are in Philadelphia or something like that? Thank you.
DEP. SECRETARY BIVENS: Sir, that's that's more of an internal bookkeeping measure, if you will, for the State Police.
On any of our rosters, we have people that are dispatched from various stations to specialized positions. Now, that person does not count against the complement of that station.
Contractually we have to have a place to return that trooper should they leave the specialized position, and they would return back to whatever station they came from.
So it's simply a bookkeeping measure, but there's a staff formula that goes into allocating the number of troopers in every troop in the Commonwealth and it's based on work load, geography, a number of other factors, so that we try to get an economic distribution.
But none of those positions count against any -- any particular station.
REP. PERRY: So if a citizen in a municipality is endeavoring to find out how many troopers serve in their community, that's public information and they can find out that so many people are on -- so many troopers are on the book, so many are specially detailed, but they can know how many are serving in their -- in their area at any given time?
DEP. SECRETARY BIVENS: No. Actually I don't believe that's public information. We have concerns about indicating what the complement of any particular station might be or what the assignment of various people at that station might be. Just because we would not want someone to be able to plan crimes according -- once they can figure out how many people might reasonably be on a shift, for example, that you -¬ you only have a certain number of people assigned to the crime function, for example. So that information is not generally made public.
REP. PERRY: I certainly understand the sensitivity of the information and -- and for the reasons given. Just understand, if you would, please, that citizens are concerned about the protection that they're, of course, paying for and where -- where that complement is.
And I'm not really sure how you -- you breach that, but just know that at least my office, and I don't know if other ones receive calls with questions about complement and where it's actually serving and -¬ and -- and I'm not sure how we address that. But just know that issue is out there.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and
Commissioner.
CHAIRMAN ADOLPH: Colonel Noonan, I want to thank you for your testimony and for fielding the questions from the members. Appreciate your support, and we're looking forward to working with you in the future.
And, Chairman Markosek, for any closing comments.
REP. MARKOSEK: Just to echo your comments,
Mr. Chairman.
And, Colonel Noonan, very -¬ congratulations. Very good testimony, and you're going to do well. Thanks.
COMMISSIONER NOONAN: Thank you very much. CHAI^IAN ADOLPH: For the members' information, the next hearing will be 1:30 promptly, the
Department of Corrections. Thank you.
(The proceedings were adjourned at
12:24 p.m.) I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence are contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me on the within proceedings and that this is a correct transcript of the same.
Brenda S. Hamilton, RPR Reporter - Notary Public