1 1 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA SENATE OF PENNSYLVANIA AND HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 2 SENATE AND HOUSE VETERANS AFFAIRS EMERGENCY 3 PREPAREDNESS COMMITTEE
4 STATE FIRE ACADEMY 150 RIVERSIDE DRIVE 5 LEWISTOWN, PA 17044
6 TUESDAY, AUGUST 14, 2018 10:10 A.M. 7 PUBLIC HEARING - EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS COMMITTEE JOINT 8 HEARING ON THE SENATE RESOLUTION 6 COMMISSION
9 BEFORE: REPRESENTATIVE STEPHEN BARRAR, 10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN REPRESENTATIVE FRANK FARRY 11 REPRESENTATIVE TIMOTHY O'NEAL REPRESENTATIVE R. LEE JAMES 12 REPRESENTATIVE FRANCIS RYAN REPRESENTATIVE RICK SACCONE 13 REPRESENTATIVE WILL TALLMAN REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS SAINATO, 14 MINORITY CHAIRMAN REPRESENTATIVE CAROL HILL-EVANS 15 REPRESENTATIVE BRYAN BARBIN REPRESENTATIVE DOM COSTA 16 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT CONKLIN REPRESENTATIVE DAN FRANKEL 17 REPRESENTATIVE GARY DAY
18 SENATOR RANDY VULAKOVICH, CHAIRMAN SENATOR SCOTT HUTCHINSON 19 SENATOR ANDREW DINNIMAN
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SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 2 1 COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT: THOMAS DYMEK 2 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, REPUBLICAN RESEARCH DEPARTMENT 3 CHRIS DONATO 4 DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN, 9TH DISTRICT
5 NATE SILCOX SENATE VETERANS AFFAIRS AND EMERGENCY 6 PREPAREDNESS COMMITTEE
7 RON JUMPER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, SENATE MINORITY 8 RICK O'LEARY 9 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
10 MICHAEL HILLMAN DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HOUSE OF 11 REPRESENTATIVES
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SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 3 1 I N D E X
2 OPENING REMARKS 3 By Chairman Barrar 4
4 INTRODUCTIONS 4 - 7
5 OPENING REMARKS By Chairman Vulakovich 7 6 By Chairman Sainato 7 - 8
7 PRESENTATION 8 By Mr. David Jones 9 - 14
9 QUESTIONS 15 - 34
10 PRESENTATION By Mr. Charles McGarvey 34 - 46 11 QUESTIONS 46 - 73 12 PRESENTATION 13 By Mr. Greg Jakubowski 73 - 87
14 QUESTIONS 87 - 92
15 PRESENTATION By Representative Frank Farry 92 - 104 16 QUESTIONS 105 - 111 17 PRESENTATION 18 By Ed Mann 111 - 127
19 QUESTIONS 127 - 144
20 PRESENTATION By John Bast 144 - 149 21 QUESTIONS 149 - 160 22
23 CLOSING REMARKS By Chairman 160 24
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SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S ------2 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Good morning. I'm - I
3 am Representative Steve Barrar, Chairman of the House
4 Veterans Affairs Emergency Preparedness Committee.
5 I will now call this meeting to order.
6 And I would like to ask everyone to please silence
7 their cell phones and devices.
8 I would ask our former retired fire
9 commander, Ed Mann, if he would lead us in the Pledge
10 of Allegiance.
11 ---
12 (WHEREUPON, THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE WAS RECITED.)
13 ---
14 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Good morning,
15 everyone. Thank you for attending today. I would like
16 to ask - first ask the members - we'll start down here
17 on the far right and ask the members to introduce
18 themselves.
19 REPRESENTATIVE O'NEAL: I'm
20 Representative Tim O'Neal, from the 48th District in
21 Washington County.
22 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: Good morning. My
23 name is Lee James. I come from Venango County,
24 District 64, and also northeast Butler County.
25 REPRESENTATIVE COSTA: Good morning,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 5 1 guys. Representative Dom Costa, 21st District,
2 Allegheny County.
3 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN: Representative
4 Frank Ryan, 101st District, Lebanon County.
5 SENATOR HUTCHINSON: State Senator Scott
6 Hutchinson, 21st Senatorial District, which is -
7 includes Venango, Clarion, Warren, Forest and a large
8 portion of Butler County.
9 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Rick Saccone,
10 the 39th District, representing southern Allegheny
11 County and northern Washington County.
12 MR. JUMPER: Ron Jumper, Minority
13 Executive Director, Senate of Pennsylvania.
14 MR. SILCOX: Nate Silcox, Senate
15 Veterans Affairs & Emergency Preparedness Committee.
16 SENATOR VULAKOVICH: State Senator Randy
17 Vulakovich, 38th Senatorial District, Allegheny County.
18 MR. O'LEARY: Rick O'Leary, Executive
19 Director.
20 MR. DONATO: Chris Donato. I'm the
21 Democratic Chairman of the Committee for the 9th
22 District.
23 MR. HILLMAN: Mike Hillman, Democratic
24 Executive Director in the House.
25 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Representative
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 6 1 Bryan Barbin, Cambria County.
2 REPRESENTATIVE FARRY: Representative
3 Frank Farry, Bucks County.
4 REPRESENTATIVE HILL-EVANS:
5 Representative Carol Hill-Evans, 95th District, York
6 County.
7 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Is that - okay.
8 Hey, I want to thank everyone for their
9 attendance today. And a special thank you to Fire
10 Commissioner Trego and his staff for once again hosting
11 us here at the Fire Academy.
12 Okay. The SR 6 Commission has been
13 doing some outstanding work over the past few years. I
14 know that various committees have spent countless hours
15 examining their specific issues. Thus, I think our two
16 outstanding legislative committees will be very
17 impressed to hear the fruits of their hard work today.
18 I want to thank the various committee
19 chairs and members for being here today. And I look
20 forward to our discussion as well as the receipt of the
21 final report in a few short months.
22 Okay. Chairman Vulakovich, any
23 comments?
24 We've been joined by Representative
25 Tallman and Senator Dinniman has just walked in also.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 7 1 Thank you for being here, gentlemen.
2 Chairman?
3 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: Thank you, Mr.
4 Chairman. Pleasure to be here today. We're in Senator
5 Jake Corman's district today. I know he wanted to be
6 here, but he had some business he's got to take care
7 of. So I'm glad to be here.
8 Last week we had a meeting to kind of
9 just get a little idea of what we might expect today
10 between - between everyone. I think a lot of work was
11 done.
12 It looks like we've made a lot of
13 progress. And now we'll try to get this report
14 finalized and then get them to work. So I'm interested
15 in hearing today a little bit more in-depth testimony
16 about each of the committees and what they've come up
17 with.
18 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
19 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
20 Chairman Sainato?
21 CHAIRMAN SAINATO: Thank you, Chairman
22 Barrar and Vulakovich. It is an honor to be here once
23 again.
24 We've done this many times in the past.
25 We do thank the Fire Academy for hosting us once again.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 8 1 And each time we've come we've learned more and more
2 different things about what you do and how you do it.
3 So we thank you for hosting us.
4 We look forward to the testimony today.
5 And this committee, and along with the Senate Committee
6 works very much in a bipartisan manner. Our goal is to
7 make things the best we can for our volunteer and paid
8 firefighters in the state.
9 And the work that you do at the Academy
10 is greatly appreciated. And thank you for everything
11 you guys do in our state - and ladies. Thank you.
12 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great.
13 Thank you, Chairman Sainato.
14 At this time I would like to call Mr.
15 Tom Cook, Assistant Administrator, State Fire Academy,
16 for some welcoming remarks.
17 You can sit in the hot seat right here,
18 if you want.
19 MR. COOK: Oh, gee, thanks.
20 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: We don't have the
21 ejector button.
22 MR. COOK: Good morning. Welcome to the
23 Fire Academy. Oh, push the button. Okay. How's that?
24 Better?
25 Good morning. I want to welcome
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 9 1 everybody to the State Fire Academy this morning.
2 Commissioner Trego sends his regrets. He's actually
3 out of town at a fire marshals conference, so he's not
4 able to be present with us today.
5 Let us know how we can serve and help
6 the process today here. The staff in the back of the
7 room will bend over backwards to accommodate whatever
8 needs we all come up with, so - all right.
9 What else do you need from me today?
10 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Just Wi-Fi.
11 MR. COOK: Wi-Fi? I'll talk to the IT
12 Department.
13 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: And we're - I think
14 after this, when we conclude the meeting, we're going
15 to get somewhat of a tour and a little bit of a
16 demonstration out back where some of the -.
17 MR. COOK: We currently have the
18 Department of Corrections here doing some training.
19 But anybody that wants a tour afterwards, I'll be more
20 than happy to accommodate them.
21 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you for
22 your hospitality.
23 MR. COOK: Sure thing. Thank you.
24 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Next I would like to
25 call Emergency Medical Service Subcommittee Chairman
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 10 1 Mr. Dave Jones, EMS Manager of Penn State University.
2 MR. JONES: Good morning. Thank you.
3 Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony in
4 reference to the work being performed by the EMS
5 Subcommittee. I have provided a list of the committee
6 membership, our meeting dates, data requests made and
7 information received, and a list of draft
8 recommendations in advance of testimony. And that was
9 in your - should have been in your packet this morning.
10 As I'm sure you all know, we are
11 approaching a crisis in emergency services. Some would
12 say we have already passed the tipping point and are in
13 an emergency, barely able to mount an adequate timely
14 response to a 911 call. Many areas of the state are
15 relying heavily on mutual aid and are stretched to the
16 breaking point and beyond.
17 Our problems can be summed up into two
18 main categories, lack of money and lack of personnel.
19 I think you'll hear a similar message from several of
20 my colleagues here today.
21 EMS agencies are being asked to do more
22 with less. We have been very good at educating the
23 public to call 911 for an emergency and the number of
24 calls has been steadily increasing.
25 EMS responded to 1.1 million calls for
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 11 1 assistance last year, but the number of agencies
2 statewide decreased from a high of 1,645 in 2013 to
3 1,278 in 2017. While some of these were due to planned
4 mergers and consolidations, others were due to a
5 cessation of operations.
6 We believe the number of EMS providers
7 is decreasing. Registry data from 2012 showed 57,032
8 providers from all certification levels. In 2017 that
9 number had decreased to 46,271.
10 An attempt to obtain the number of
11 active providers, those working in the field, was
12 attempted using EMS agency data. Data from June 2018,
13 provided by the Bureau of EMS, showed 18,770 paid
14 providers and 7,327 volunteers in the system at that
15 time.
16 However, this is based on agency
17 licensing data, which has several limitations. The
18 data can be up to three years old, since licensing
19 occurs every three years and providers are on rosters
20 for multiple agencies.
21 A better determination of the number of
22 active providers statewide was obtained using patient
23 care reports filed between January and June of this
24 year, showing only 17,125 active providers.
25 Agencies themselves are feeling the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 12 1 financial strain. Costs for equipment keeps steadily
2 increasing and payment for service is not keeping up
3 with inflation.
4 EMS agencies generally are only eligible
5 or payment for service when the patient is transported.
6 Unless the agency is in network to the patient, the
7 insurance carrier sends payment for the transport to
8 the patient, and most EMS agencies are not able to
9 negotiate favorable in-network rate with these
10 companies.
11 High deductible health insurance and
12 increasing co-pays put an increasing financial burden
13 on patients who are unable to pay for services
14 rendered. In some cases when patients receive payment
15 from their insurance carrier, they cash the check and
16 keep the funds. But the agency is mandated to respond
17 when a 911 call is made 24/7, 365, without regard to
18 the patient's ability to pay.
19 The direct pay legislation passed a few
20 years ago - with direct pay legislation passed a few
21 years ago may have been a help to the agencies if they
22 were able to receive payment directly, but the rates
23 for those payments were not made available to the
24 agencies before committing to the program.
25 Only 37 agencies statewide took
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 13 1 advantage of the program last year. And for the
2 current year there are no agencies accepting direct
3 payments through the program.
4 The loss of volunteers has resulted in a
5 shift to pay EMS providers over the last 25 years.
6 Most paid EMS personnel are paid low wages since
7 reimbursements are, in many cases, below the cost of
8 providing the service. Low wages force many providers
9 to work multiple jobs and can push them out of EMS into
10 a better-paying line of work.
11 Agencies are being squeezed by
12 increasing demand for service, increased costs,
13 inadequate payments, nonsupport by many municipalities
14 to underwrite the cost of readiness and a declining
15 workforce.
16 The recent Medicaid increase will help
17 financially, but the Medicaid rates need to be
18 reevaluated on a regular basis and adjusted as needed.
19 And a mileage payment for all load miles needs to be
20 added. Getting adequate payments directly to services
21 in a timely manner can help, too, along with assistance
22 to maintain the cost of readiness.
23 The EMS system itself is struggling as
24 well. The Emergency Medical Services Operating Fund is
25 failing. While the number of offenses providing
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 14 1 funding through the courts has remained relatively
2 steady, the collection amounts have steadily fallen.
3 Regional EMS councils are being stretched thin while
4 providing required services to agencies and personnel.
5 The Bureau of EMS has done what it can
6 to reduce expenses through the consolidation and
7 efficiencies, but this is not enough to stem the tide.
8 Additional funding for the EMS Operating Fund must be
9 found. The alternative is reducing or eliminating
10 needed programs and services.
11 One other issue came up as the committee
12 was looking into EMS issues in the Commonwealth. There
13 are currently 18 EMS relief associations in the state
14 that were formed prior to Act 118 of 2010.
15 After this Act, the Auditor General has
16 been finding on audit of these relief associations that
17 they may be considered ineligible for funding since
18 they are not affiliated with a volunteer fire company.
19 Act 118 should be amended to offer the same protection
20 to EMS personnel as it does to volunteer firefighters.
21 The EMS Committee looks forward to
22 bringing forth a final list of recommendations to be
23 integrated into the SR 6 Committee Final Report.
24 And we thank you for your consideration.
25 And I'm here to answer questions.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 15 1 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
2 I'm sure we have some questions. Do you
3 have any idea what the failure of a - of a serious
4 direct pay to EMS is costing?
5 MR. JONES: No, we don't have any
6 figures on it, unfortunately. But how much it's
7 costing - there were 37 services last year, only 37
8 across the state. And most of them were affiliated
9 with a group in the Williamsport area that were
10 accepting direct payments.
11 But when they were - when they signed up
12 for the direct payments, there was no information how
13 much they would receive. And the monies that they were
14 receiving were not enough to make it worth their while
15 to sign up again this year.
16 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: I know I have one fire
17 - one ambulance company that tells me that they have
18 about $200,000 on the street, that they're constantly
19 chasing money. And it's a sin that they have to spend
20 so much time chasing money when this is - you know, on
21 paper it looks like the easiest problem in the entire
22 state to fix.
23 And you still have been incapable of
24 coming up with a better fix, you know, for these
25 people, so - and it breaks my heart to see this - this
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 16 1 happening, you know, to our ambulance companies around
2 the state.
3 But there is a solution. It's just can
4 we - can we get it passed. I really think you can
5 resurrect that direct payment legislation again,
6 because Tom, you said the Bill will be passed - what,
7 two years ago, was it, two years you said? And it has
8 really done very little to help - help the situation,
9 so -.
10 Mr. Chairman?
11 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: To follow up on
12 Chairman Barrar, this direct pay, you said when - when
13 they signed up for it, they didn't know what the rate
14 was going to be that they would be reimbursed?
15 MR. JONES: Right. There was - there
16 was - at that time, it was a list of all the insurance
17 companies offering service in the Commonwealth. You
18 could just select which ones you wanted to accept
19 payments from. And they're going to pay you their
20 in-network rate, but there is nowhere published that
21 tells you what that's going to be.
22 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: So they - they all
23 pay different amounts?
24 MR. JONES: Yes.
25 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: But the other
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 17 1 caveat to this thing was that you could go after the
2 additional monies that you were short.
3 MR. JONES: Right. You would have to
4 accept the in-network rate and write off the balance.
5 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: Okay.
6 And why do you think the insurance
7 companies insisted on not - not having the ability to
8 go after the extra dollars?
9 MR. JONES: They're looking out for
10 their patients. And you can't blame them for looking
11 out for the people that pay them for the service.
12 You know, we - I chase - our service
13 chases a lot of insurance payments. You know, I'm in a
14 - I'm in a very unique position, based on my - where I
15 work is most of my patients are students at the
16 university, and we can get their money.
17 But I get a lot of complaints. And we
18 get complaints from parents. We get complaints from
19 nonstudents, I don't have the money to pay you. You
20 know, I used that insurance check to pay my other
21 bills, to pay rent.
22 And you feel bad. You know, our
23 position, coming after people that have very little
24 funding, but otherwise I can't provide the service to
25 the rest of the - to the rest of my customers.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 18 1 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: The other people
2 who provide healthcare, do they get the payments sent
3 directly to them from the insurance companies or is
4 that coming back with -? Years ago I think you used to
5 - many years ago you used to get a check and you'd take
6 that and give it to your doctor or hospital.
7 MR. JONES: Some still do that. Some
8 still do that. But a lot of those - a lot of those
9 providers can pick and choose their patients. They can
10 join networks based on the amount of monies that they
11 can expect to receive.
12 We can't check with somebody when they
13 call into 911 saying, wait, do you have Blue Cross?
14 Well, we don't accept Blue Cross. So we go out and we
15 provide the service and then we have to chase the
16 money.
17 A physician's office, a surgeon's
18 office, you know, can say, well, we don't accept your
19 payment from your insurance carrier, so it's going to
20 cost you this amount of money or they will accept, you
21 know. And they know what they're going - they
22 negotiated that.
23 I have yet to see an insurance carrier
24 that will negotiate with a rural ambulance service.
25 It's pretty much, here's what we're going to pay you.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 19 1 Take it or leave it.
2 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: Would it help in
3 some way -? You know, whenever you get a bill from
4 going to a doctor or to the hospital or something like
5 that, you see the amounts that they've charged and then
6 you'll get usually, if you have good insurance and
7 there's agreement between them, they'll say we accept
8 that. And you wonder how they accept that amount,
9 which is so much less than what they had before.
10 I'm wondering, with regards to EMS, is
11 it feasible that there could be some standard charge
12 across the state for services rendered? So every
13 insurance company would know that if you provide - put
14 a line on somebody, an IV or something like that or
15 some service you provide either at the home, in the
16 ambulance on the way to the hospital, that there would
17 be a standard charge for that that could be recognized
18 across the board for EMS providers.
19 MR. JONES: I mean, that would be a
20 wonderful idea. The problem we run into is, you know,
21 for my service I have a certain amount of patients. I
22 have a certain call volume. I have certain expenses.
23 Service, you know, two counties over is
24 not going to have that same payor mix. They're not
25 going to have the same call volume. They're not going
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 20 1 to have the same response area to cover.
2 So it's going to vary - it varies a lot.
3 And I know, even for what we have, you know, in Centre
4 County, there's a wide variety of charges from services
5 in the county, based on, you know, their call volume,
6 what their expenses are, whether they're paid or
7 volunteer. So I mean, it would be a wonderful idea if
8 we could figure out something that would work.
9 I know Medicare, for instance, comes in
10 and in certain districts they say this is the amount
11 that every service is going to get in this area if you
12 - if you choose to accept Medicare. And pretty much
13 everybody chooses to accept Medicare, because, if you
14 don't, you don't get paid.
15 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: You won't get
16 paid.
17 MR. JONES: So you know you're getting X
18 amount of dollars. But the thing is what happens with
19 a lot of those, Medicare pays - the last I heard is six
20 percent under cost of doing business.
21 So you shift those costs to everybody
22 else. And I'm lucky. Where I am I don't have a lot of
23 Medicare patients, so I don't have to worry about
24 shifting those type of costs.
25 I have to shift costs for Medicaid. We
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 21 1 have a fair number of those. And we have a fair number
2 of people that don't pay. Everybody else pays for
3 somebody who doesn't pay the bill.
4 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: Okay.
5 Thank you, Mr. Jones.
6 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Chairman Sainato?
7 CHAIRMAN SAINATO: Thank you. Thank you
8 for your testimony today.
9 MR. JONES: You're welcome.
10 CHAIRMAN SAINATO: How many actual
11 volunteer fire or ambulance services are still left in
12 Pennsylvania?
13 MR. JONES: I think - my information's
14 over there, but - unfortunately, I don't have access to
15 it. There's probably about less than a third of the
16 services are all volunteer now.
17 CHAIRMAN SAINATO: That's what I thought
18 because I know I remember some of my - some fire chiefs
19 from probably about three weeks ago, and this is their
20 number one issue for volunteer fire companies is they
21 can't do it anymore. I mean, they're just inundated
22 with the ambulance calls or calls between the drug
23 overdoses and all the other things that are happening.
24 And they don't have the EMS services
25 that are normally out there. The local companies that
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 22 1 you once had aren't there.
2 MR. JONES: Right.
3 CHAIRMAN SAINATO: And it all - because
4 of cost. I mean, it's like they can't afford to - to
5 do that. And we got to come up with some solution.
6 And that - they told me that's their
7 number one priority or their number one concern, let's
8 put it that way, from fire companies is just - their
9 job is to fight - responsibility is to fight fires.
10 And they're getting calls for everything, I mean.
11 MR. JONES: When I - I started out
12 outside of Pittsburgh in 1980. And just to show you
13 the difference today, we bought a brand new ambulance
14 in 1980. It cost us $13,000.
15 I bought a new ambulance last year. It
16 was over $200,000.
17 Back in 1980 we had a lot of - a lot of
18 people in Pittsburgh were in the steel industry. It
19 was just the end of the steel industry. And a lot of
20 the guys would volunteer and they'd sleep at the
21 station overnight, you know, if they were working night
22 shift or they would come in and sleep during the day.
23 So we had a pretty active volunteer
24 service. But you got to the point where people
25 couldn't - couldn't do it anymore.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 23 1 I went to my paramedic program. It cost
2 me $75 to go to paramedic school. That same school
3 today is several thousand dollars, you know, $10,000 in
4 some cases.
5 EMT class, 30 - $30. And today that's a
6 thousand dollars. People can't afford to go to - to go
7 get the training and then do this for free.
8 It's very - it's difficult. They have -
9 some people make a choice between getting paid $10 an
10 hour to be an EMT or going to work at Sheetz and making
11 $15. So you don't have the same workforce that we had,
12 which has pushed a lot of the industry into - into paid
13 providers.
14 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Representative
16 Tallman?
17 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN:
18 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr.
19 Jones, -
20 MR. JONES: You're welcome.
21 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: - for being
22 here.
23 I'm going to follow up on Senator
24 Vulakovich's question and ask you for a number. And
25 Chairman Barrar and I have had discussions with
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 24 1 insurance companies over this very issue, which I find
2 disturbing.
3 In-network and out-of-network, how much
4 money are the ambulance services losing on the
5 out-of-network versus the in-network?
6 MR. JONES: It varies. It varies with
7 the insurance provider. I'll tell you that my service
8 does not participate in any networks except for
9 Medicare and Medicaid. We just can't afford to.
10 And when - you know, we had negotiations
11 with Blue Cross a few years ago, and they said
12 basically, this is the amount we'll pay. It was less
13 than half of what we normally charge. This is the
14 amount we'll pay you and that's it.
15 And they were not open to negotiation.
16 Now, that was one carrier that we brought to mind, but
17 they - they do vary. They do vary widely.
18 And a lot - a lot of them look at, well,
19 Medicare will pay you this amount, usually about 40 -
20 30 to 40 cents on the dollar. Medicaid will pay about
21 20 cents on the dollar, which before the last increase
22 - and there's a lot of services will push - a lot of
23 these insurance companies will push it down towards the
24 lower end of that, lower end of that range.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 25 1 Representative Tallman.
2 I know Representative Saccone has a
3 question. I'll get to you in a minute.
4 If anyone is not familiar with this, I
5 have in front of me a newspaper article from the 20th
6 of July. It says 12 people charged for - with
7 insurance fraud for not using insurance funds for
8 ambulance service.
9 MR. JONES: Somerset.
10 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: That's people in
11 Somerset County. And I'm praying - actually, I sent
12 this article in to my District Attorney in Delaware
13 County, asking her to look into this.
14 I think we, as - as legislators and you
15 guys, as EMS providers, we all need to start putting
16 pressure on our District Attorneys to take this. I
17 think if we could get a couple of these people
18 prosecuted for insurance fraud or whatever, theft of
19 services or whatever, some type of a prosecution may
20 change people's attitude about depositing checks that
21 don't really belong to them.
22 I mean, it would be nicer - it would be
23 great if we could get the insurance company - it still
24 boggles my mind that insurance companies fight us. But
25 it's actually - I think the highest total that someone
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 26 1 here defrauded the ambulance company out of was $1,600.
2 And it obviously was not just one
3 ambulance ride. It probably would had to have been
4 involved in at least several ambulance rides to a
5 hospital.
6 So you know, hopefully we can - we can
7 talk to our DAs about it. I know I'm waiting to hear
8 back from mine, to see if she'll take this fight for
9 us.
10 MR. JONES: It's very rare to see that
11 type of action taken.
12 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Yes. I was stunned
13 when I saw the headline. I actually, you know, I mean,
14 went right to - forwarded it to the DA and said, we got
15 to do the same thing here in this county.
16 We have one company that's chasing
17 $200,000. It's a lot of money to have out on the
18 street.
19 Representative Saccone?
20 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you,
21 Chairman. Thank you for your testimony.
22 MR. JONES: You're welcome.
23 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: I brought this
24 up before in previous meetings. I don't know the
25 answer to this, but you raise the point again. I think
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 27 1 we're being gouged by these ambulance companies and
2 fire truck - same thing. We're paying a lot of money
3 for these vehicles.
4 And I know they're very specialized and
5 they're custom made and all that, but is there
6 sufficient competition in the industry to drive down
7 costs on these things, because the costs are enormous?
8 I mean, I just had a fire company pay
9 $1.2 million for a truck. I mean, it's just - I
10 understand, again, that things go into it, but I mean,
11 it just seems like we're paying exorbitant costs for
12 things and we need to drive the cost of those down.
13 MR. JONES: They are expensive. The
14 safety features in a lot of these vehicles is much
15 better than they used to have.
16 But even when you look at what the big
17 three auto makers charge for a pickup truck these days
18 - you know, I remember back in the late '70s, you could
19 get a pickup truck for $3,000. And that was with
20 bumpers on both ends.
21 Today you're talking $50,000, $60,000
22 for the same truck. And you know, it's nicer inside
23 and it's nicer outside, and it's got a lot more safety
24 features, a lot more durable, but there's a cost to
25 that.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 28 1 Well, all of our vehicles are built on
2 those same chassis. So you know, the manufacturer puts
3 out a chassis that's been bought by a modifier company
4 that then has to put in all the other materials to make
5 that vehicle work.
6 And there's standards we have to meet.
7 There's standards they have to meet. So it is a little
8 - a little expensive.
9 Could there be a way to drive costs
10 done? One of the things that could be is if you had a
11 statewide contract that says this is the price for a
12 standard ambulance and so and so will sell us 10,000
13 units at this price, and it might help.
14 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Not to interrupt you,
15 Rick, but the standards that are set, are they mandated
16 from the Federal Government or who sets those
17 standards?
18 MR. JONES: There's - there's three
19 different standards that are being followed right now,
20 one of which is the old federal KKK Standard, which
21 apparently has sunsetted.
22 But there's two or three other - there's
23 a CAS standard right now that's coming out and there's
24 another standard through the Fire Chiefs that is - and
25 all three don't agree. That's the other problem. All
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 29 1 three don't agree.
2 So right now Pennsylvania says we'll
3 take the KKK spec or something similar to it. If - if
4 they were - all these groups were to get together at
5 the federal level and say, this is the safety standard
6 we have and the standards for building the trucks, it
7 would make everybody's life a lot easier, because then
8 we could come up with one design that would - that
9 would work.
10 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Sorry, Representative
11 Saccone. Do you have a follow-up?
12 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Yes.
13 So do you have competition? How many -
14 how many manufacturers of these vehicles are there that
15 you have - that you can choose from?
16 MR. JONES: There's - there's probably
17 at least ten, at least ten that we look at, reputable
18 manufacturers. And some of those have come into play.
19 Some of them have gone out of business or merged with
20 others.
21 You know, I've got two different - in my
22 fleet, I've got two different manufacturers. I also
23 work in another service that's got two different - two
24 different manufacturers in their fleet right now. And
25 there's pluses and minuses on both of those.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 30 1 And there are trucks that are higher end
2 and there's trucks that are lower end, you know. So
3 you know, you basically have to decide what it is you
4 can afford and what you want in your truck and what
5 you're willing to pay for it.
6 But there is some - some customization
7 to almost every truck you have out there. I mean, I
8 bought three in the last 20 years and all three were
9 pretty much straight off the line, but we also had some
10 things that we wanted added for what we did that we
11 felt brought value to what we did.
12 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: General Ryan.
14 Colonel.
15 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN: I was wondering
16 when that was going to come, Mr. Chairman.
17 Listen, thank you - thank you so much
18 for your testimony. It's been very helpful.
19 If I can just add onto something that
20 was said. I've done a lot of work in the truck
21 industry, in manufacturing the types of vehicles that
22 you mentioned in my prior life.
23 The bills of material for the type of
24 vehicles that are being generated are pretty specific.
25 And as a result, the cost drivers of putting a vehicle
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 31 1 together are significantly greater than expected.
2 But we bear some of the burden and
3 responsibility. Our procurement cycle makes it
4 extraordinarily difficult for someone who is trying to
5 service what you need to be able to provide for those
6 parts simultaneously and then find out, all of a
7 sudden, it's scheduled for production and it's delayed.
8 So one of the things that we can do to
9 really drive down the cost is provide a greater degree
10 of stability, the funding sources for the local
11 ambulance services, so that they can make a commitment
12 under this plan and be able to do it.
13 The second issue is, you know, I was on
14 a hospital Board of Directors for 28 years. And the
15 reimbursement rates - we are not, as a society,
16 remotely close to dealing with the reality of what your
17 costs are. And when we browbeat - when the insurance
18 industry and Medicare and Medicaid browbeat you on
19 rates, we have to expect sometimes - I think where we,
20 at the state, have to push back on the federal
21 government.
22 Because once Medicare - Medicare - caid
23 rates are established, all the insurance companies are
24 keying off of those. And if the payor mix in a
25 community is - is lower, Medicaid, there's no way an
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 32 1 EMS service can survive. Just can't happen.
2 So I think we, as a commonwealth - and I
3 think one of the things this community can do and with
4 Resolution 6 is that we can push back really hard at
5 the federal level and say, you help me deal with the
6 children with disabilities to get the Federal
7 Government to step up to the plate.
8 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
9 Any other questions from anyone?
10 Senator Dinniman?
11 SENATOR DINNIMAN: Two thoughts. Most
12 of these insurance companies have -.
13 Most of these insurance companies have
14 very large funds that they - that they put in - not in
15 escrow, but they preserve. And they're nonprofits, so
16 we don't tax it or anything else.
17 Perhaps to explore the possibility that
18 since they are nonprofits and have these funds, that
19 they create some type of a funding - a percentage of
20 those funds to be utilized in terms of reimbursement
21 for ambulances.
22 This is not much different. Remember
23 that if an - if you have insurance and that insurance
24 company goes under, every insurance company has to pay
25 into a fund that takes care of the clients in that
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 33 1 insurance company. So what I'm trying to say is that
2 we - that perhaps we can be creative enough to - to
3 have - to insist that the - that we know this is a
4 problem.
5 We are losing our ambulance companies,
6 that we insist that if they're going to maintain very
7 large funding base, that is just in reserve - and some
8 of these are huge, in the millions, that - that perhaps
9 a percentage of those go into some type of fund. Just
10 as the companies pay into a fund if an insurance
11 company goes under. And that could then be utilized to
12 make up the difference for ambulance companies.
13 Simply saying we need to perhaps think
14 out of the box and find - where are they making lots of
15 money? Where are these funds going? It's not
16 different than argument we get about school districts
17 that are raising taxes when they have reserves that are
18 huge. Well, the reserves are very large. And can we
19 try to creatively figure this out?
20 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. I'm a yes
21 vote, by the way. You write it, I'll vote yes on it.
22 They'll put out a wanted poster for us.
23 Thank you, Senator.
24 SENATOR DINNIMAN: You're welcome.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Do you want to comment
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 34 1 on that or -?
2 MR. JONES: No. Anything - it's time to
3 be creative, before we lose it.
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: You got to think
5 outside the box, and certainly is doing that.
6 Any other questions for the members?
7 Okay.
8 Thank you for your testimony. We
9 appreciate it.
10 Our next testifier I'd like to call -
11 hey, by the way, we've been joined by Representative
12 Scott Baio from -.
13 When they do the remake, they're going
14 to use helicopters in the next one, so -.
15 REPRESENTATIVE CONKLIN: I would hope
16 so.
17 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Our next subcommittee
18 chairman, Chas McGarvey, Chief Fire Officer/Fire
19 Marshal Lower Merion Township. Thank you for being
20 here.
21 Do you have a person with you that you
22 want to introduce?
23 MR. MCGARVEY: I do. Chief Jay Delaney
24 from Wilkes-Barre. He served on the committee. And
25 with all those questions you gave Dave, I brought him
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 35 1 up for moral support.
2 Anyway, good morning Co-Chairman Barrar
3 and Co-Chairman Vulakovich, Senators, Representatives,
4 all fire brothers and distinguished members of the SR 6
5 Commission.
6 I'm Chas McGarvey. I'm Chief Fire
7 Office of the Township of Lower Merion Fire Department
8 and Chair of the SR 6 Government Support Subcommittee.
9 I'd be remiss if I didn't take this
10 opportunity to thank all those who served on the
11 Government Support Subcommittee for the time and effort
12 they put forth in bringing you our recommendations. I
13 also want to thank you for the opportunity to offer
14 this testimony here today regarding the work that has
15 been completed by the Government Support Subcommittee.
16 The decline of volunteers in the fire
17 and EMS service is having a significant impact on the
18 ability of municipalities to be able to reliably and
19 safely provide fire and emergency medical services,
20 protect the citizens of the Commonwealth.
21 Fewer trained personnel are responding
22 to emergencies and most elected officials do not
23 understand the varying levels of capabilities of their
24 emergency services departments.
25 In addition, there is no statutory
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 36 1 requirement for municipalities to document a standard
2 of cover for fire or EMS protection. Funding of the
3 fire and EMS services is in decline, and all areas of
4 funding for fire and EMS services needs to be reviewed,
5 so that sufficient monies are made available and
6 appropriately distributed amongst all entities.
7 The Government Support Subcommittee was
8 tasked with making recommendations that would address
9 the operations of the Office of the State Fire
10 Commissioner, define what a firefighter is, and propose
11 a Standard of Cover.
12 We were also directed to collect data on
13 all the fire companies and departments in the
14 Commonwealth, including the number of stations they
15 respond from, the number of trucks and apparatus in
16 each station, the number of firefighters they have.
17 And to further break that down into how many of those
18 firefighters responded to a minimum of ten percent of
19 their fire calls, and how many responded to 20 percent
20 of their fire calls.
21 In addition, we also looked at how many
22 of their firefighters had Firefighter I certification
23 and how many had Firefighter II certification.
24 In order to respond to this inquiry, the
25 subcommittee developed a survey which was sent to fire
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 37 1 companies and fire departments across the Commonwealth.
2 The survey period was open from June 1st through June
3 30th. The survey was sent to 1,713 fire companies and
4 departments, as this was the number of departments for
5 which the Office of the State Fire Commissioner had
6 electronic contact information on file.
7 The survey group included career and
8 volunteer entities, but excluded the cities of
9 Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, as we did not want to skew
10 the data.
11 From this effort, 31 surveys were
12 undeliverable and only 385 responses were received. Of
13 those 385 surveys, 382 responses were useable.
14 Unfortunately, we didn't receive the
15 response rate we had hoped, but the survey did capture
16 responses that reflect the distribution of fire
17 department characteristics, in this case rural,
18 suburban and urban, making these results valid and
19 useable.
20 The analysis of PennFIRS data in May
21 showed that the number of active firefighters in the
22 Commonwealth was no more than 37,715 individuals. This
23 number includes career personnel, exclusive of the
24 cities of Allentown, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.
25 Therefore, the number of volunteer
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 38 1 firefighters is less - is less than this number. It is
2 also important to note that not all volunteers who
3 respond to fire incidents are actually capable
4 firefighters.
5 The PennFIRS data also includes Fire
6 Police Officers and undoubtedly includes some number of
7 life members, who no longer serve actively on the scene
8 but respond to the station and thus are credited for
9 their response.
10 With that said, however, we do not feel
11 that the precise number of volunteers is as important
12 as the following.
13 Number one, the trend is negative. Our
14 survey, when compared to prior surveys, notably the
15 2012-2013 Center for Rural PA Survey, clearly shows we
16 have fewer active firefighters and have lost ground and
17 continue to lose ground.
18 Number two, our survey confirms that a
19 significant number of people appear on more than one
20 fire company or department roster, and thus the overall
21 roster numbers are not terribly valuable.
22 And number three, the survey results are
23 reflective of other hard data, such as PennFIRS.
24 In addition, there are two items that
25 were identified that we feel warrant immediate
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 39 1 attention. And we encourage the legislature to act on
2 these items without delay.
3 The first is closure of the Foreign Fire
4 Insurance Tax loopholes, which is the Relief. Despite
5 continuing development of property throughout the
6 Commonwealth, Relief revenues continue to decline.
7 As an example, despite robust growth of
8 population and considerable new construction in the
9 State College area, State College fireman's Relief
10 revenues have declined 15.8 percent since 2013, with a
11 decline of 8.7 percent between 2016 and 2017.
12 Inquiries made by the Office of the
13 State Fire Commissioner to the Insurance Department
14 revealed between six million and six million fewer
15 insurance policies being subject to the tax in just the
16 past two years. This situation has created significant
17 financial hardships to both volunteer and career fire
18 companies and departments.
19 Number two, inclusion of career fire
20 departments in the Volunteer Loan Assistance Program,
21 otherwise known as VLAP. Current language establishing
22 the VLAP program precludes participation by career fire
23 departments. Many career fire departments,
24 particularly those serving cities of the third class,
25 are struggling to maintain and replace capital
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 40 1 equipment.
2 Participation in this program provides
3 these departments with tools to better serve their
4 citizens through modernization of apparatus and the
5 facilities. Inclusion of career departments in the
6 VLAP program is supported by the Pennsylvania Fire
7 Emergency Services Institute and the Pennsylvania
8 Career Fire Chiefs Association.
9 It is recommended to remove restrictions
10 that exclude career fire departments from participating
11 in the VLAP program and rename it to FALAP, Fire Agency
12 Loan Assistance Program.
13 Another area researched by the
14 subcommittee was local government responsibility. The
15 government - the subcommittee recommends that the
16 legislation passed in 2008, which requires
17 municipalities to provide fire and EMS emergency
18 services, be amended to also have local municipalities
19 adopt one or more standard of cover.
20 We've included four different models
21 from which to choose in our report. By doing this it
22 will help to strengthen the engagement of local
23 governments in matters related to their fire and EMS
24 services.
25 In addition, municipalities should also
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 41 1 be required to enter into mutual aid agreements that
2 will call the closest fire or EMS department regardless
3 of township, borough, county, city, or in some cases,
4 state boundaries, in order that Pennsylvanians will be
5 assured the closest fire and EMS response.
6 As previously stated, the Government
7 support Subcommittee was specifically asked by the SR 6
8 Chairs to make recommendations relative to the State
9 Fire Commissioner and the Office of the State Fire
10 Commissioner. Although the Office of the State Fire
11 Commissioner has been helpful to the fire service, its
12 impact and effectiveness remains limited at best.
13 The Office of the State Fire
14 Commissioner is severely underfunded and seriously
15 understaffed. A personnel assessment should be
16 conducted of the Office to assure proper staffing
17 levels for the duties assigned to this office.
18 Once this assessment is completed, it is
19 imperative that the staffing levels of the Office be
20 brought up to an efficient and effective level, in
21 order to accomplish the recommendations of this
22 Commission.
23 It is further - further strongly
24 recommended that this Office be a stand-alone office
25 that reports directly to the Governor rather than part
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 42 1 of PEMA. The Subcommittee feels strongly that the
2 Office of the State Fire Commissioner should be clearly
3 designated as a lead agency for fire services in the
4 Commonwealth.
5 Some of its duties would include grant
6 administration, State Fire Academy operations, data
7 collection and analysis of the statewide fire
8 experience and system conditions.
9 This information must be collected on an
10 ongoing basis to assist in making decisions going
11 forward. And the Subcommittee feels very strongly that
12 a staff member should be dedicated solely to this
13 function.
14 The Office would advocate that fire
15 prevention measures and improvements of fire service
16 quality and delivery administer the Firemen's Relief
17 Fund, excluding the audit function, which will remain
18 with the Auditor General, provide binding preaudit
19 device, determine allowable uses of Relief funds.
20 Provide technical assistance directly and through
21 agents and affiliates of the fire departments on
22 technical and managerial matters. And take actions to
23 correct deficiencies related to a statewide minimum
24 standard of government.
25 The fire service in Pennsylvania is in
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 43 1 need of a complete overhaul, as proven by the lack of
2 participation in the survey we conducted. The
3 Subcommittee feels the only way to accomplish this is
4 by creating a new State Fire Commission, with the State
5 Fire Commissioner serving as its chair. This
6 Commission would conduct inspections of fire
7 departments to assure they are in compliance with the
8 new Pennsylvania Fire Commission's standards.
9 Funding and incentives is another area
10 that was examined by our Subcommittee. The
11 Subcommittee recommends adopting a Length of Service
12 Awards Program, also known as LOSAP, that would be
13 supported at the state level. Both volunteer and
14 career fire departments should be given the ability to
15 charge for real and reasonable costs associated with
16 their emergency response.
17 In addition, the Commonwealth should
18 consider providing basic funding for delivery of fire
19 and EMS services on a cost-shared basis with local
20 government. This funding should be structured to
21 encourage regionalization of fire services.
22 In the area of grants, the Subcommittee
23 feels that all grants should be available to both
24 career and volunteer fire departments. The current
25 VLAP program needs to be overhauled, especially the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 44 1 application process, and additional funding needs to be
2 provided.
3 Relief funding reform is needed, and the
4 Subcommittee supports strengthening the beneficial use
5 of Relief funds and opportunities to increase funding
6 of Relief, particularly for those fire departments with
7 small allocations.
8 Lastly, the Subcommittee feels strongly
9 that all funding, $36 million, that was previously
10 removed from the VLAP and Relief - and the Relief Fund
11 should be replaced.
12 It has been stated in the past that the
13 alarm has been sounded regarding the Pennsylvania fire
14 and EMS services and that we are in a crisis. It is
15 our belief that the crisis occurred when the SR 60
16 Commission was created, and we are now beyond crisis.
17 And if left to continue down this road, the fire and
18 EMS systems in the Commonwealth will collapse.
19 As we move forward with the SR 6 Report,
20 sincere political fortitude and commitment are needed.
21 The legislation must act on all the recommendations of
22 the commission's report and not just those that are
23 easy and have no cost associated with them.
24 Our final report will provide much more
25 detailed information regarding the volunteer
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 45 1 firefighter decline, local government responsibility,
2 as well as the creation of a new State Fire Commission
3 with a model from another state attached.
4 Through the course of its research, the
5 Government Support Subcommittee observes that many of
6 the recommendations being proposed cross over to other
7 subcommittees of this Commission. We also know that
8 these recommendations are not new, with many having
9 been repeatedly proposed to the Legislature in the 1976
10 Pennsylvania Burning Report, the 1985 PSECI Survey, the
11 2004 SR 60 report, the 2005 HR 148 report, and the 2015
12 Center for Rural PA reports, but they have not been
13 acted upon.
14 Legislative initiatives offered in lieu
15 of the specific recommendations of these reports, while
16 earnest and offered in good faith, have failed to
17 achieve desired results. The basis for many of the
18 unaddressed recommendations made in these previous
19 reports remain valid today. And the continuing decline
20 of fire and emergency services warrants them being
21 acted upon without delay.
22 I just returned from the International
23 Association of Fire Chiefs Conference in Dallas, Texas.
24 And while walking from my hotel into the convention
25 center, there was a sign with many different quotes on
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 46 1 it. But there was one that just kept jumping out at me
2 each time I passed it.
3 It was a quote by Leonardo Da Vinci that
4 said, knowing is not enough; we must apply. Being
5 willing is not enough; we must do, end quote.
6 You have gathered together professionals
7 from across the Commonwealth to give you a plan. So
8 now I ask you, our elected officials, are you willing
9 to make the necessary difficult decisions and do what
10 is necessary to save our fire and EMS services from
11 collapse?
12 We urge you to be strong and do the
13 right thing in order to make the necessary fundamental
14 changes to how fire and EMS services are delivered
15 across the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
16 I'd like to thank you for giving me the
17 opportunity to serve with such fine professionals on
18 this Commission and for your leadership and taking the
19 time to support the emergency services in the
20 Commonwealth.
21 This ends my testimony and I'm happy to
22 answer any questions you may have.
23 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Randy, do you -?
24 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: Before I ask a
25 question, I'd like to - did we recognize
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 47 1 Representative -
2 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Frankel?
3 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: - the other day?
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: No, I didn't. I
5 didn't see him come in.
6 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: I would also like
7 to recognize Matthew Wise and Brandy Reiter from
8 Senator Corman's office. Thanks for coming today.
9 Anyhow, I read over your report last -
10 last night. And it really hits - hits to the essence
11 of everything.
12 The number, you know, we were using
13 50,000 for a long time. I go around to my fire
14 company. I know it's not 50,000. Hit 40 on the roster
15 and you might have eight or ten that respond to calls.
16 And so - but I think it's important to our story.
17 I was also very surprised that it was
18 between a 30-day period. 1,700 fire companies and only
19 385 responses. And these people already sacrifice so
20 much of their time and everything.
21 And I don't know if it's because they -
22 it goes to a station where it comes in and nobody gets
23 on there and checks it to see if there's - there's
24 something that's required of them. Or whether they're
25 just saying, I'm too busy right now, I'll do it later,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 48 1 then don't. Or they just say, what difference does it
2 make?
3 And I relate that to in your testimony
4 about the different years, 1976, 1985, 2004, 2005,
5 2015. You know, Ed Mann last week, you know, made a
6 comment about, a lot of this stuff's not new. These
7 are things that we've been asking for, for a long time.
8 Maybe they're tweaked a little bit more,
9 maybe a little more up-to-date, modernized a little
10 bit. Some of the requests are things we know now that
11 we didn't know before.
12 But I can tell you, I'm not one of these
13 people who like to cry wolf, but I see what's going on
14 in my local fire company and the time these guys put
15 in. And look, it's going to be up to us.
16 And you are right. We have the
17 fortitude and strength to do this. I said a long time
18 ago that it's your time now, and we really need to get
19 together and deliver on this thing and put a plan
20 together of how we're going to deliver some of these -.
21 And I just don't want this to go by the
22 wayside. Because I think this is the last time - I
23 think if you drop the ball here, you're totally going
24 to give up on us. You probably should.
25 It's time for us to deliver, quit
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 49 1 shooting our mouths off about all the great things we
2 want to do and support we give you. It's time to act.
3 So I think, you know, we've got a good
4 group of people here. And I think we can get some of
5 these things done.
6 So keep the faith and keep on our toes -
7 keep us on our toes. And so - so we keep that fire in
8 our belly to get this done.
9 So don't lose faith in us yet. Maybe we
10 haven't been real deserving of it, because we haven't
11 delivered a lot of things, but just don't give up quite
12 yet.
13 Okay?
14 All right.
15 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Chairman Sainato,
16 questions?
17 CHAIRMAN SAINATO: I just want to thank
18 you for your testimony today. I think what you're
19 saying we're hearing around the state.
20 I think you mentioned the legislature -
21 as Chairman - Senator Vulakovich said, the time to act
22 is now. I think the people that are in this room are
23 very committed to this. That's why we're here today.
24 Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 50 1 Representative Farry?
2 REPRESENTATIVE FARRY: Thank you. Just
3 a quick comment. Thank you for your work. It's very
4 good.
5 Number one, when you talked about that
6 closure of the Foreign Fire Insurance Tax loopholes, I
7 think we can all agree there's probably not 6,000,000
8 to 7,000,000 less commercial properties being insured -
9 or less commercial properties in the Commonwealth.
10 So clearly there's - there's something
11 going on. I tried to inquire to find out why these
12 Relief Fund numbers have been declining without people
13 consolidating -.
14 And to the Chairmen that are here, it
15 may be worthwhile having a legislative hearing on that
16 matter and bringing the responsible parties, Department
17 of Revenue, Insurance Department, some other folks, to
18 testify and be held accountable for how this is
19 happening.
20 Because clearly there's some shenanigans
21 going on. And those shenanigans are resulting in less
22 funding for the fire service. And we need to get to
23 the bottom of it.
24 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Frank, how far back
25 could we audit this fund to see what - what the effects
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 51 1 are and what's not being paid, where we're losing
2 money?
3 REPRESENTATIVE FARRY: I think - I mean,
4 I noticed a decline two or three years ago. Gentlemen,
5 I don't know when your departments really noticed it.
6 It's been a pretty steep decline.
7 So I don't know how far back we can go,
8 but there's clearly a trend that's affecting us, the
9 outcome and how much we're getting.
10 So I certainly think they can come back
11 with ten years' worth of numbers and explain to us
12 that. But there's no way that you have 6,000,000 or
13 7,000,000 commercial properties that are not selecting
14 to have fire - commercial fire insurance coverage.
15 There's just no way that's happening in
16 the Commonwealth. There's got to be something else
17 going on, whether they're creating - kind of labeling
18 it in the policy to avoid the tax - there's clearly
19 something going on. ]
20 So we need to get to the bottom of it.
21 We need to take corrective legislative action and we
22 need to do that.
23 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Okay.
24 I said - when you said that, I said to
25 Rick that we should set up a hearing immediately with
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 52 1 the Insurance Commissioner to bring the parties in and
2 do this right away. I think it's something hopefully
3 we can - I think this should be an easy thing to
4 correct.
5 But you're not - you're not familiar
6 with the specific loophole that is causing this step?
7 MR. MCGARVEY: The Chief couldn't make
8 it today, but he has a lot of information I can pass on
9 to you.
10 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: We really could use
11 that. I'm not familiar with what the loophole would be
12 and how to close it, so I think any information you can
13 provide would be helpful.
14 MR. MCGARVEY: We'll get that for you.
15 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Lee James,
16 Representative James?
17 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: Thank you, Mr.
18 Chairman.
19 Good morning. Thank you for your
20 testimony as well.
21 Out in Western Pennsylvania I had a
22 number of volunteer fire departments. I like to keep
23 in touch with them. And they usually give me the
24 opportunity to ask a question, how are things going
25 with your station and what are your problems? And I
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 53 1 anticipate the answer usually is, well, we don't have
2 enough volunteers or money. So you've confirmed that.
3 But I also talked about the age of the
4 volunteers and the age of the folks in the fire
5 companies. I understand they used to be in their 40s
6 and 40s, and now they average in the 60s. So obviously
7 we have a coming problem with that as well.
8 Here's the surprise I got, though, and
9 that was this week. When I asked about why do you
10 think volunteers - young volunteers are hesitant to
11 come out, I anticipated he would say, well, it's
12 because the turnout here costs $5,000 or $6,000 and
13 they don't have that kind of money. And he did say
14 that.
15 But he said one other thing, which
16 surprised me. He said, and, oh, by the way, when I
17 started in this business, about 25, 26 years ago, all
18 the training - most of the training was done by the old
19 veterans to the young, new recruits.
20 Now, when a guy signs up or a woman
21 signs up for this kind of service, I don't know, but
22 it's weeks and months of training. And he says, young
23 people won't do that.
24 So I guess my - and this is not a got
25 you question. My question to you is, how did we get to
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 54 1 the point where we are now, where there's so much
2 training required that we're driving people away from
3 this volunteer service?
4 MR. MCGARVEY: Well, sir, we're one of
5 the most dangerous occupations that there is. In the
6 State of Pennsylvania you have to have a certification
7 to cut hair.
8 To be a police officer, you have to be
9 trained. To provide EMS, you have to be trained.
10 In Pennsylvania, to be a firefighter you
11 don't have to do anything. Certification's not
12 required in this Commonwealth.
13 It's recommended and i would strongly
14 recommend that we keep it where it is, because it's a
15 very, very dangerous occupation we perform.
16 It can be done, and it's being looked at
17 with this Commission, maybe having a basic plan and
18 then -. Because there's a diversity of the
19 Commonwealth, you know, have other areas looked at, you
20 know, that you would concentrate on. But we can't be
21 putting people in these positions that aren't trained
22 properly.
23 It's just - we need some kind of basic
24 training. Any - any occupation you're in, you get some
25 sort of training. And having the veterans do it, well,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 55 1 as we said, the veterans are older in age now. And
2 building - buildings have changed, codes have changed.
3 I mean, back when I started, you had 20 minutes before
4 a flashover. That's less than seven minutes, six
5 minutes, five minutes.
6 Buildings are flashing over before we
7 leave the firehouse. So if someone in there isn't out
8 of there within that first five minutes, unfortunately,
9 they're doing to die.
10 And then we're going to send our people
11 into those conditions without proper training? I'm not
12 comfortable doing that.
13 If I could just take it one step
14 further. And this is a real simple component to this.
15 I'm in the fire service for 38 years myself. When you
16 dialed - or when you called the fire department 25
17 years ago, it generally is for a fire.
18 Today, fire departments are all hazards.
19 Some - one of the Representatives mentioned earlier,
20 all the people who call 911, all the calls the fire
21 department is getting today. I'm a fire chief. I
22 would not want to send a firefighter to a car accident
23 if they don't have blood-borne pathogens to teach them
24 to deal with blood.
25 Many of our fire departments, volunteer
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 56 1 and career, are getting the car accidents before the
2 ambulance services are getting there. So how could we
3 ask the fire department to respond to a car accident
4 where they might have to be involved with blood and its
5 components without teaching them how to protect
6 themselves from that?
7 So like, that's - that's one minor part
8 that's a game changer in how we live today.
9 When someone calls - dials 911, they
10 don't care whether they're getting paid or they're a
11 volunteer, they care whether they have training. If
12 you have a family member that is - has a medical
13 emergency, it doesn't matter whether they're getting
14 paid or not. It matters the training level they have.
15 The same thing when your house catches
16 on fire. But we are called for everything today. We
17 shouldn't even be called fire departments anymore.
18 We're all hazard and emergency responders.
19 And you just have to have a level of
20 training. We, certainly as chiefs, would not want to
21 allow any of our staff to go into a burning building
22 without having the - and on top of that, we're liable
23 for all that.
24 NIOSH will do an investigation, if
25 anyone's hurt. And the first thing they're going to
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 57 1 look at is the training record of those firefighters.
2 So - but we have grown from just being a fire
3 department to an all hazards, emergency services
4 organization.
5 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES: I would say I
6 don't disagree or agree either way. I merely wanted to
7 bring this to your attention. This is the thought
8 process, perception of reality in our worlds.
9 MR. MCGARVEY: And we have heard that in
10 a lot of places. And unfortunately, it's one of those
11 necessary evils.
12 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you,
13 Representative.
14 Representative Saccone?
15 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you,
16 Chairman. Thank you for your testimony. Thank you for
17 what you do every day. We really do appreciate it.
18 I wanted to go off of Representative
19 James's question. We've been bringing this up for
20 years. At least the last six years we've been bringing
21 this up almost every time we have one of these sessions
22 like this.
23 And it comes down to training. I have
24 26 fire departments in my legislative district, a
25 variety. Some have a lot of younger members coming in.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 58 1 Some are dying, from what I understand, and just a lack
2 of volunteers. But the training is always one of the
3 main things that comes up.
4 And no one's saying that people
5 shouldn't be trained. Just like we do with the
6 military, we have on-the-job training.
7 We have supervisors that sign people off
8 and work on aircraft. They know about fixing aircraft.
9 We don't want aircraft to fall from the sky either, but
10 you have - you have supervisors that train people on
11 the job and sign off on it, let them out there,
12 certified in their tasks, to make it easier to get this
13 training done where they're at, so that we're not
14 driving people away. I hear this a lot.
15 The pushback I get is from the chiefs.
16 They'll say, no, no, we want - we want more training.
17 I understand that. We want more training. We want
18 people to be as trained as highly as possible.
19 And you say it's not required, but a lot
20 of chiefs will say, if you want to be in my fire
21 department, you've got to have this level. We want
22 everybody to be this level.
23 Okay. That's nice, but if it's driving
24 people away, it's not effective. You have to have some
25 kind of compromise. And I think that having chiefs and
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 59 1 certain designated people within the fire department be
2 able to sign off on these things might be that
3 compromise. I'm interested in hearing what you have to
4 say.
5 MR. MCGARVEY: Well, sir, thank you for
6 your service. And as a former Marine myself, we all
7 know - I agree we do have on-the-job training, but that
8 comes after we have basic training. So you know - and
9 that basic training in the fire service is the Fire
10 Academy.
11 Now, I do know that we are looking at
12 different ways and the training - the Committee will
13 talk about it, I'm sure, more, of providing online
14 training. Because that's where the younger people are
15 being held - being trained, how education is going. So
16 those kinds of things are being looked into.
17 And the Commission - the training and
18 operations group I'm sure will talk to you on that.
19 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: How much of the
20 - how much of the training now is online?
21 MR. MCGARVEY: There - I believe the
22 State Fire Academy has one course, hazmat, online right
23 now, but they are working on others.
24 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Are you finding
25 that having the training online is as effective at
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 60 1 attracting younger people and they're willing to do the
2 training?
3 MR. MCGARVEY: It just occurred, so it's
4 too early to really say anything on that. But there
5 still will need to be some hands-on - and with this
6 basic training, you can challenge it.
7 So you don't have to sit there and go
8 through it. You can challenge it. But some people
9 don't want - you know, either they don't know or they
10 don't want to.
11 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you.
12 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Representative Barbin?
13 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Thank you.
14 With that, I'm not trying to beat a dead
15 horse, but these two questions I think are tied up into
16 the numbers problem.
17 We had 300,000 people. We now have
18 37,000 people. The chief is always going to be the
19 person to determine whether the training is sufficient
20 to go and do any job, whether it's roll the hose, you
21 know, direct traffic or whatever.
22 Isn't it possible that we could have a
23 training level to make sure that more people that are
24 coming out of high schools have a foot into the door?
25 And what I'm thinking about is, I signed
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 61 1 up for Firefighter I training. And I got halfway
2 through the training, but our time commitments don't
3 let us really not miss a meeting in April and May.
4 If you had people that just did basic
5 CPR or basic, you know, first aid, couldn't we make
6 that a designation I, to get people in the door? Give
7 them some sort of credit for it, so that we would have
8 the numbers we needed to get it to the point where you
9 finish the training you need because the building
10 materials.
11 You don't want anybody going in without
12 a mask or how to use it. And everybody's got to go
13 through this - you know, the fire burn, the live burn.
14 But why does that have to be Firefighter I?
15 The people that we have in the
16 Commonwealth are high school students. There's 1.8
17 million. If you only got one percent of them, you
18 know, as part of their physical education, just get
19 some sort of basic healthcare training, you would have
20 a chance of getting another 18,000 people. And that
21 would put us in a position to maybe hold off what this
22 problem is.
23 I'm looking - I've been in these
24 hearings. And we've gone from 300,000 to 50,000, and
25 now we're down to 37,000. And I don't see any way of
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 62 1 avoiding all paid fire companies if we don't get more
2 volunteers into the existing fire companies.
3 So why can't we have another designation
4 that allows a high school student to at least put their
5 foot in the door?
6 MR. MCGARVEY: I don't want to steal the
7 thunder of the operations and training. However, there
8 are programs out there that allow high schools to
9 provide some training. However, some of the school
10 districts don't want us in there, which is - which is,
11 you know, an issue.
12 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Right.
13 MR. MCGARVEY: But no matter what the
14 level of training is, you have to have some sort of
15 basic training to provide the necessary protection, so
16 that people understand what they're getting into,
17 especially in today's fire environment.
18 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: I just think
19 we're here to have a social - a policy that encourages
20 people to be in the fire companies. We want volunteer
21 fire companies along with paid fire companies.
22 We - what is it that we can do? Do we
23 force schools to say you either - you have to have this
24 as part of your physical education training, some sort
25 of certification for volunteer fire companies?
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 63 1 MR. MCGARVEY: We -.
2 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: You have to do
3 something.
4 MR. MCGARVEY: I agree. And you know,
5 some of the problems we face today are the fire
6 services' fault.
7 We've gone around for years pounding our
8 chest saying a hundred years of tradition unimpeded by
9 progress. And now that's plagued us.
10 So we do - we do know we need to get
11 younger people involved. You know, volunteerism, not
12 only in the fire service, is down everywhere.
13 You know, when I played sports, I had a
14 baseball season, I had a football season, I had a
15 basketball season. I usually had a month in between
16 them.
17 My son's hockey season started in June
18 and there's four tournaments. You know, my parents
19 didn't take me on tournaments, but I'll have four or
20 five tournaments outside the state that I got to take
21 him to.
22 It's time commitments. It's not only
23 training. It's being able to afford to live in the
24 community you serve. I can tell you in Lower Merion
25 Township, when I get a volunteer in there, I have them
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 64 1 for three or four years, he just can't afford the
2 housing in there.
3 You know, you did a great thing with the
4 tax incentive. I have 200 volunteers there. Seventeen
5 (17) of them were able to take advantage of that,
6 because their parents own the house, not them.
7 So we really got to look at the
8 legislation we're putting forth and make sure it
9 applies to all the volunteers and not just certain.
10 You know, we don't have any IT, so we couldn't take -
11 take advantage of the IT and go and do the real estate.
12 Seventeen (17) out of 200.
13 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN BARBIN: Senator Dinniman?
15 SENATOR DINNIMAN: You have models of
16 exactly what people are asking for here. In terms of
17 training of young people, I happen to chair the
18 Education Committee for the Senate.
19 Such a model is Chester County, in my
20 district, where you have Octorara High School has an
21 academy program. Students who weren't interested in
22 going to this school are now completely absorbed,
23 taking their last three years of high school in this
24 program.
25 They get about 50 certifications. And
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 65 1 they are prepared when - the day of graduation, when
2 they turn 18, to enter that fire service.
3 MR. MCGARVEY: Correct.
4 SENATOR DINNIMAN: So if we pay 48 - 42
5 percent of our budget goes to education, we have a
6 right and, indeed, an obligation to make sure that the
7 schools operate in the interest of the community.
8 And a school that isn't -. We've just
9 gone through the same thing with the military, that
10 many schools won't allow the military to come in to
11 recruit. Yet in today's economy you get a full
12 scholarship, both as a graduate and undergraduate.
13 And those schools have to be told, you
14 can't stop people who serve our community from coming
15 in to recruit. And you have to have those programs
16 that are going to be an interest to the community.
17 Randy, I think you have a Bill that -
18 several community colleges - and I think Steve as well
19 is involved in that.
20 So what I'm saying is this. You do have
21 the young people. You're absolutely right, those of
22 you said - you do - you have young people who want to
23 be trained and are also thinking of a career.
24 There's tremendous careers now in
25 emergency services. And we need to just get the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 66 1 schools to accept - and if we have to do it through
2 legislation, we do it through legislation, that they
3 have a community responsibility. And one of those
4 responsibilities is in this area.
5 The only reason I'm familiar with this
6 is because of a dedication, and I was able to get
7 another $50,000. But that we had to pay for and we had
8 to work to get it.
9 And so I think this Commission has -
10 remember, it's not - it's - you have to think of all
11 the areas of government. And we can't get young people
12 in through the education program.
13 In fact, the young people involved in
14 this are excited, because they're doing a community
15 service. They still have that idea that - so all I'm
16 saying is, there are ways to do this, and I think we
17 need to make some suggestions from the Commission to do
18 it.
19 And to do it at a very small expense by
20 - that we add to education or by saying to education -
21 schools, hey, listen, we're giving you all this money.
22 And the same thing with the
23 universities. You know, we talked about EMS before.
24 There's no reason that an internship for doctors who
25 are in emergency medicine, that some of those
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 67 1 internships could not be in ambulance companies, not
2 just in the hospitals. And they're on the scene.
3 There's no reason that in our nursing
4 programs they can't be in that ambulance as well. We
5 give money to all those institutions. We have a right
6 to make some requests.
7 And finally, a program works for
8 Maryland that's so easy, is you have students coming
9 from other areas who are trained.
10 All right?
11 And all they do is they give them free
12 room and board in the firehouse. And they take their
13 courses in the evening and they're there to get the
14 trucks out during the day.
15 How much does it cost us for us to have
16 a program in the state? I think I have a Bill on that.
17 That would simply give a fire company, whether it's
18 approved or not, X amount of money, so they can build a
19 couple bedrooms and a bath, many of you have them
20 anyway. And you get the kids who are willing to go out
21 who have already been trained.
22 So there are many solutions to this.
23 And we just have to understand that we have to utilize
24 all of our departments and resources in getting this
25 job done.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 68 1 MR. MCGARVEY: I think shifts and
2 live-in programs are going to be the future. We
3 mentioned going from volunteer to career departments.
4 And I respectfully disagree that that's how we have to
5 go.
6 We can have a combination fire service.
7 We don't need to send two engines and a ladder truck on
8 every fire alarm. Half of my calls were fire alarms
9 last year. I can send a motorcycle, one person and a
10 fire extinguisher to handle that, because the major -
11 majority are false.
12 We in the fire service also have to look
13 at how we're responding to these calls. Do we need as
14 much apparatus as we have?
15 Regionalization must occur. I have
16 seven ladder trucks, 14 engines and two rescue units in
17 my township. I have more rescues than the City of
18 Philadelphia.
19 So we also have to look at how we're
20 doing things and maybe slow this down some and do more
21 with less. And we can do more with less, but it's
22 getting people to agree to that. And with the way the
23 system is set up today, it's going to be very difficult
24 to do.
25 That's - that's why, you know, we think
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 69 1 this Fire Commission is the way to go. It would help
2 to take the onus off the elected officials worrying
3 about votes.
4 Okay?
5 Because you all have to worry about your
6 constituents and getting votes. And at the local level
7 that's even more, when you have, you know, 40, 50
8 people in the fire company. Well, that could seriously
9 affect the outcome of an election.
10 So if you - if you install this
11 Commission, they're the ones that are setting up the -
12 what needs to be done for our fire service, the
13 standards, those kind of things.
14 Senator, just to address one thing.
15 When we look at barriers, though, for getting people
16 involved in emergency services, when I went to EMT
17 school in 1977, it cost me nothing.
18 Ask any one of our emergency responders,
19 our EMS staff, how much it costs to go to EMT school
20 now.
21 So at one time, because of the FTEs,
22 before they were removed, people could go for this
23 emergency response training almost for free. The cost
24 of emergency response training has skyrocketed also.
25 So I would just throw that out there,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 70 1 that the cost of the emergency response training at one
2 time was zero and now it has gone up considerably. But
3 I will hopefully allow the Training Committee to
4 address that a little bit more.
5 SENATOR DINNIMAN: But if it's done
6 through the public schools and it's done through the
7 community colleges, then it will be zero once again.
8 You can do this training in through what we already
9 have established.
10 I agree with you. But I think that when
11 you have a school that takes 50 kids, takes them - they
12 spend three years. They're getting pretty well
13 qualified, and they're not paying a cent, because it's
14 part of their public education.
15 And by the way, they have a career which
16 is far better than a lot of students who come out, go
17 to college, get a Doctorate degree, as I did, then
18 don't get a job. All right. So we're also helping
19 them find jobs this way.
20 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you, Senator.
21 Representative Tallman?
22 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: I want to beat
23 the dead horse. I started in the EMS side in '74.
24 That makes me pretty old. But anyway -
25 so after we - after I finished my probie time, then
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 71 1 that's when I was permitted by my local volunteer fire
2 department to take courses.
3 During the probie time, we had a
4 training officer, and he had drug me into burning
5 buildings. You know, he was with me.
6 And I did all kinds of clean-up work,
7 tearing down walls, you know, after the main fire was
8 put out. Hot, smoky. I wasn't allowed to wear an air
9 pack, because that's what he felt was good training for
10 a probie.
11 So - that was '74. So the EMS - Don and
12 Heather are back there. We have progressive scales,
13 first aid - actually, CPR, first aid, advanced first
14 aid, EMT, EMT advanced, paramedic, go up the scale.
15 Ed Mann's back there. I've got all
16 kinds of papers from the State Fire Academy of courses
17 I have taken. Unfortunately, they were back in the
18 '80s.
19 And I would like to have my Firefighter
20 I Certification, but, according to Ed, I can't have it
21 because I haven't done it the new way.
22 So I have all kinds of certifications in
23 the fire service and they're no good, I guess. But I
24 think our training, that's a key issue. There's too
25 much time. We should do it much more progressive, like
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 72 1 they do on the EMS side.
2 Is there liability for me being drug
3 into a burning building as a probie with just a
4 training officer from my fire department?
5 MR. MCGARVEY: Sure.
6 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: Well, there's
7 always a liability.
8 MR. MCGARVEY: There's liability in
9 anything we do today. But I - you know, I did a
10 comparison of the training hours today.
11 And I started in 1978, so I don't think
12 you're that old. But I did a comparison of the - of
13 the hours, and it's up to 180, I guess, today.
14 When I did all that's required in
15 Firefighter I and Firefighter II today, the difference
16 is we did them in separate courses. And maybe we
17 looked at the - but back then, when I finished all of
18 them, I think it was 142 hours.
19 So we're 40-something hours above where
20 we were, but - and it was done differently. And again,
21 I don't want to steal the thunder of the Training
22 Operations Committee, because they're going to have a
23 lot more for you on that stuff.
24 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Again, Representative
25 Tallman, it had to be scary going into them burning log
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 73 1 cabins back then.
2 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: We had
3 horse-drawn ambulances.
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Did you say you were
5 74 back then or it was in '74?
6 REPRESENTATIVE TALLMAN: It was 1874.
7 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: 1874.
8 Gentlemen, thank you for your testimony
9 today. Sure do appreciate it.
10 Next I'd like to call up the Innovation
11 Subcommittee Chairman, Greg Jakubowski. Did I say that
12 right?
13 MR. JAKUBOWSKI: Yes.
14 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Good. Principal and
15 Chief Engineer, Fire Planning Associates, Inc.
16 Thank you for being here today. You can
17 begin your testimony when ready.
18 MR. JAKUBOWSKI: Sure. Thank you very
19 much. And thank you, lady and gentlemen, for having me
20 here. And also, it's been a pleasure working with many
21 of the people on the Committee that I've had a chance
22 to work with before and some that I have not.
23 Just to tap onto a couple of other
24 comments that were made up here, I've been in the fire
25 service for 40 years in Pennsylvania, served in three
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 74 1 different counties, served as a fire chief, volunteer
2 fire chief. I wanted to mention - the question was, is
3 how does online training - how effective is that? And
4 we're just touching on it on the fire end of things.
5 I've been an EMT since 1979. I think
6 I'm on my - about my 13th recertification. And I'm one
7 of those people that Dave and his committee probably
8 are on his list, because, yes, I keep getting the
9 certification, but I'm not riding an ambulance. I'm
10 mostly just riding some fire trucks.
11 So I - after 25 years and my back and
12 et cetera, et cetera, I'm not actively doing that. But
13 the online training does help me to make - recertify.
14 It makes my recertification much easier than if I had
15 to go attend a class somewhere, because I can do it at
16 ten o'clock at night, 11 o'clock at night or whatever.
17 And as the Senator from Chester County
18 mentioned, I'm one of those carpetbaggers that went
19 down to Maryland and took advantage of the live-in
20 program in the firehouse.
21 Not only that, Maryland also offered at
22 the time, that was 35 years ago, if you were taking
23 fire-related courses or EMS-related course and you were
24 an active member or volunteer, you could get state
25 reimbursement of state tuition. So the State of
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 75 1 Maryland did provide for a good bit of my - a good bit
2 of my education funding. And I was doing about a
3 thousand calls a year, many of which were benefitting
4 the citizens of Maryland. So it's a great program.
5 SENATOR DINNIMAN: We can easily do that
6 here.
7 MR. JAKUBOWSKI: Right.
8 So - so I'm - I'm the Subcommittee
9 Chairman for Innovation. And I have a very small group
10 of folks on my committee.
11 However, our charge was to be
12 innovative, to think of different ways. And I'm going
13 to try and give you some - some solutions. There's
14 nothing that's easy as a solution. If it were, we'd
15 all - we wouldn't be here today.
16 But I will say that of my small group we
17 not only serve throughout Pennsylvania, but most of us
18 have been exposed to things throughout the United
19 States and internationally. So many of us are working
20 all over the place. So it's not just - and the
21 problems aren't just here in Pennsylvania, they're
22 elsewhere.
23 The other comment I'd like to just make
24 real quickly, when we think about and we talk about
25 volunteers in combination systems and et cetera,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 76 1 et cetera, as has been mentioned by the previous group
2 a little bit, there's - there's a lot of calls for
3 service, this routine type of call for service. EMS
4 has faced it for probably much longer than the fire
5 service has.
6 The - the value to volunteers, the real
7 value to volunteers in our community is not just the
8 day-to-day services, which can be effective in a rural
9 area, where the calls are still those urgent calls, the
10 come, hey, help my neighbor, I need you now, as opposed
11 to -.
12 As has been mentioned, and I won't - I
13 don't have a recommendation for that, but the fire
14 alarm problem is a huge one. Forty (40) to 50 percent
15 of calls in the suburban and city areas are for fire
16 alarms that are false fire alarms. You know, how do we
17 drive some of that down?
18 But the issue really is, is that,
19 particularly in fire, but also to some lesser extent,
20 EMS, you have this - nothing going on, nothing going
21 on, nothing going on.
22 I looked probably a half an hour ago at
23 Montgomery County, Pennsylvania. You can look at
24 online at how many calls are going on right now. And
25 there were zero fire incidents occurring in Montgomery
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 77 1 County, Pennsylvania, which is the third largest county
2 in the state.
3 I think it's about 800,000, 900,000
4 people. So it's nothing fire-oriented. If you looked
5 at that call list yesterday, about 24 hours ago from
6 now, you would have seen 30 to 40 water rescues that
7 were occurring in the Upper Merion Township area and
8 surrounding areas, also Chester County, they had the
9 same issues there.
10 So all of a sudden you had nothing and
11 then you had this huge demand for services. And the
12 challenge is, is that when you're managing an emergency
13 services, is how do I staff for that day-to-day thing
14 and then how do I hit that peak that occurs all of a
15 sudden and perhaps without warning? And that's where
16 volunteers really come into play.
17 And then we get into the training issue.
18 And I'll stop at the end of this with a bit of my rant
19 on this, if it were, but, you know, training - in basic
20 firefighter training, you get almost no training on
21 water rescue.
22 And people yesterday were screaming for
23 help, get me anybody, somebody here with a rope bag,
24 somebody here that can rescue. We have two police
25 officers holding a car with a rope from going over
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 78 1 somewhere with people in it.
2 All right?
3 That's when - when people call us at
4 911, that's what's going on. And I think particularly
5 some of the chiefs behind me from the smaller cities in
6 the - in the state fight that battle every day.
7 They're riding two people on a truck.
8 We talk about volunteers not having
9 staffing. They struggle with those same issues, two,
10 maybe three, on a piece of apparatus. And they're
11 staffing to make maybe one house fire going on in their
12 city, not a two or three alarm or 20 water rescues
13 going on at one time.
14 So that's my comment to those things. I
15 don't want to spend a lot more time on training. We've
16 spent a lot already, because Chief Bast from Easton
17 will be talking more about that.
18 But going through my list very quickly,
19 the first thing is, is this - and as has already been
20 discussed, this municipal support and education about
21 fire and EMS.
22 Many municipal leaders know about fire
23 and EMS, but many do not. And this report and the
24 technical information that's coming out of this can be
25 used very successfully by the emergency services
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 79 1 organizations to communicate with their local
2 government about the kind of support that they need for
3 their fire and EMS.
4 It's not just going a run-on on billing
5 for EMS. It's got to be - there's got to be some tax
6 funding and other things to support a basic level of
7 EMS services.
8 The next thing that was touched on
9 already by the government support group was the State
10 Fire Commissioner's Office and properly funding that,
11 and in particular the PennFIRS. We've come a long way
12 with having data on fire protection from the PennFIRS
13 program. We need to do more with that and we need to
14 recognize where our problem's coming.
15 Right now, over the last few days, the
16 Commonwealth has experienced some deadly flooding in
17 many places. In many places we knew what was
18 happening, but there wasn't a consistent message
19 necessary.
20 PEMA was providing some things, but from
21 county to county down at the local levels of the Turn
22 Around and Don't Drown there were pockets of places
23 that were very good with getting that message out, but
24 that's something that that group can assist with, is
25 making sure that the message is getting out through the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 80 1 local folks down there.
2 There's also a big issue in community
3 risk reduction, not just in the fire side but on the
4 EMS side. The EMS side will tell you, we're not
5 getting bills - you know, the money. You've heard that
6 already.
7 I know from personal experience from my
8 time in EMS, we had one guy that when he needed a
9 couple hundred bucks to pay a bill, he would call EMS
10 and we would respond out. Sometimes we would transport
11 and he would sign himself out of the hospital right
12 away and go home and get his couple hundred dollars
13 from the insurance company.
14 That was a regular guy. It was tougher
15 and tougher to get the volunteers to respond to that
16 particular address. That's a community risk reduction
17 area that other communities throughout the country -
18 and there are a few in the Commonwealth, particularly
19 the bigger services - are able to address through
20 community risk reduction.
21 The next item that's out there, and some
22 of you have alluded to this a little bit in particular
23 with we're buying a $1.2 million ladder truck or fire
24 vehicle. Where's that money coming from?
25 We believe that there needs to be a
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 81 1 system much like New Jersey and other states across the
2 United States, where there are some regional technical
3 advisors that can help municipalities to say, do I
4 really need that $1.2 million ladder truck? Is there a
5 Certificate of Need for six rescue companies in Chas's
6 community.
7 Those technical people can help the
8 municipal leaders who don't understand that world about
9 what do you really need, what do you need to spend your
10 money on. I see folks buying $600,000, $700,000 pumper
11 trucks.
12 I was recently on a committee two, three
13 years ago for a small borough that said we have
14 $400,000 to spend, this is what you're getting. And we
15 were able to buy a pretty well-equipped, pretty
16 functional truck for $400,000.
17 So that's something that we see in
18 either the fire administrator's office somewhere, is
19 regional technical advisors that can support the tech -
20 the Certificate of Need for tax-based funding.
21 If folks want to do fundraisers,
22 whatever they want, to buy - they say, look, you're
23 going to get $700,000 to buy this piece of equipment,
24 well, we want the $1.2 million - you know, fine, you
25 can get the $700,000 - you can get the basic model, but
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 82 1 if you want the extra one, you need to raise the funds
2 on your own to do that.
3 And some communities will support that,
4 and that's - that's okay. There's nothing wrong with
5 that.
6 You've heard testimony about relief
7 associations. I think our group, subcommittee, are
8 fully supportive of some of the things that have been
9 mentioned about the reduction of funding. And I think
10 there are some things with the insurance companies - I
11 deal a lot with commercial insurance companies through
12 my business and how they ensure large corporations.
13 We do fire protection work for some of
14 the biggest companies in the U.S. And if they can find
15 a way to buy insurance in state or around the system,
16 they're certainly going to look at that. That's -
17 that's normal way of doing business and different
18 things.
19 But also the Relief Associations, and we
20 saw this also - the townships, the PSAP groups, say
21 doing - a Relief Association that's getting $15,000 a
22 year from the state, do we need a three-day audit of
23 that program?
24 I think that needs to be looked at more
25 closely. Certainly we support ethics in the fire
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 83 1 company and ethics in economics, and working with a
2 municipality to understand those ethics.
3 And having the municipality having some
4 accountability for their tax funds is a good thing.
5 But are there ways that we can reduce some of the
6 administrative burdens, particularly on small amounts
7 of money that's out there.
8 The next item that I wanted to touch
9 briefly on is not the technical piece of this, but the
10 funding for basic fire and EMS training throughout the
11 Commonwealth. You've already heard this. We've heard
12 about the need for standardized training. We've heard
13 about the costs for that training.
14 We believe - our subcommittee believes
15 that the Commonwealth needs to fund that basic
16 training, needs to be able to provide the funding for a
17 firefighter to go to Firefighter I or whatever that is
18 that's decided, a standard training program approved
19 through the Fire Academy, through the Fire
20 Administrator's office and for EMT training, that that
21 funding comes from the state. That will clean up a lot
22 of other issues.
23 That will free up money at the local
24 level to do other fire training, to do some of this
25 other things that we've talked about that are, quote,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 84 1 unquote, optional. But if we provide the basic
2 training, whether that's through high school, whether
3 that's through some other means, through the local Fire
4 Academies, if you provide that funding, that will be a
5 huge burden off the shoulders of both the fire and EMS
6 organizations and the individuals who want to help out.
7 Another item - and I know Representative
8 Farry's done a good job to - and he and I have had
9 discussions on this, is financial support to release
10 employees for emergency calls.
11 While that's interesting, I'm a small
12 employer, I have a few employees, and I'll probably
13 take advantage of that a little bit. We tend to allow
14 our - we'd be flexible with our employees to be able to
15 go to those type of things.
16 But it's tougher for larger employers to
17 say, you know, that are already tight on money, that
18 are already tight on money - how do we know they're
19 tight on money, they're working around insurance ways
20 to see how they can save a million or two or a couple
21 hundred thousand here. They don't - they don't have
22 the people they can release.
23 However, if their members, their
24 employees are part of the National Guard, they will
25 release them for two - two weeks of training. They
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 85 1 will allow for that. Because that can be scheduled.
2 If the legislation can look at releasing
3 employees and providing some financial benefits to the
4 employers for releasing them for training, that will
5 also facilitate their ability to get that training. It
6 also brings back to the employer someone who has
7 training in emergency response.
8 We do an awful lot of work in my
9 business with training employees and large corporations
10 on how to handle emergencies. We do tabletop drills.
11 We train their emergency teams and other
12 things. If they can get that state paid-for training
13 and if the company gets some time off and they know
14 from June 1st to June 20th I need to let that employee
15 go to EMT training, to fire training, whatever, that
16 will be very beneficial to both - not only part of
17 their emergency team, but also they can be part of
18 their required employee safety programs that their
19 Workers' Comp - they get a discount on Workers' Comp
20 for.
21 So I think that's an area of emphasis
22 that can really help many employers from the small to
23 the very large throughout the Commonwealth.
24 Finally, the last thing that we think
25 that's very important and helps with that staffing
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 86 1 issue I told you about that, all of a sudden, we get a
2 spike in emergencies is we need to look at outside this
3 Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of Virginia, the State
4 of Maryland, others allow for statewide - or
5 correction, countywide emergency services
6 organizations.
7 And I'm not familiar enough, I
8 apologize, with the politics and the other things
9 behind that, but I think that the time is now. You're
10 hearing warning signs across the board.
11 At some point there may be one or more
12 counties that want to do a county fire and EMS service
13 that's funded through the county level in this - in
14 this Commonwealth. There are already regionalizations
15 going on, on a smaller scale, but at some point in
16 particularly the smaller counties, they may wish to
17 provide that at a county level.
18 And we believe - our committee -
19 subcommittee believes that legislation needs to be put
20 forward that will facilitate that now, so that when the
21 time comes, that folks are ready to go there, that the
22 framework is already built for that.
23 Virginia's a Commonwealth. Again, I'm
24 sorry, I didn't take enough politics in school to
25 understand the differences, but that's happening
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 87 1 throughout the Commonwealth of Virginia and even some
2 of the more rural counties are going to countywide
3 services. And maybe there's a model there that we can
4 look at.
5 So that's the end of my testimony.
6 Again, thank you for listening, and I'm happy to take
7 any questions from any of you.
8 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Any questions
9 from the members?
10 Yes, Representative Barbin.
11 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Your report's
12 coming out. And the only comment I wanted to make was
13 to follow up Chairman Barrar's -. His District
14 Attorney is bringing an action against fraud on that
15 sort of person who calls when they need money.
16 There's another possibility, and I think
17 you should consider it maybe from the report. We have
18 a part of the State Attorney General's office that has
19 a Fraud Protection Unit. So - and they're in a better
20 position to maybe put one person on that and send them
21 to whatever counties are necessary.
22 So you might want to follow up with the
23 State Attorney General, because they're doing it for
24 car accidents. It's not a big stretch to jump in for
25 fraudulent, you know, ambulance rides.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 88 1 MR. JAKUBOWSKI: That may be best
2 addressed through the EMS Subcommittee, but that's -
3 that's certainly excellent. Any kind of support that
4 we can get on that, very good.
5 Our Subcommittee tends to touch on all
6 the other subcommittees as well. We're kind of - we're
7 innovative.
8 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Real quick, I -
9 Representative Barbin, I did - I did meet with the
10 Insurance Commissioner, the guy that heads up the
11 Insurance Fraud Department for the State Insurance
12 Commissioner.
13 And they told me that, in their opinion,
14 that this does not meet the definition of insurance
15 fraud. We can argue all day long. It seems to me that
16 a check for $600 for an ambulance ride being used to
17 pay rent sounds like fraud to me, but what do I know.
18 MR. JAKUBOWSKI: I'll turn that to the
19 EMS Subcommittee. I think they're - they're better -.
20 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: The Attorney
21 General - because he's the one allowed to prosecute.
22 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Right. Right.
23 Any other members with questions?
24 Representative Hutchinson - Senator Hutchinson.
25 Thanks. Again, promotion.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 89 1 SENATOR HUTCHINSON: I'd just like to
2 comment that you - something that I've thought about
3 for years is that - more from the standpoint of the
4 higher benefits that we give to National Guard.
5 But you've - you've broadened my thought
6 process on that, saying that, you know, there really is
7 sort of a model in place for how we can improve our
8 ability to get volunteers and get people to be part of
9 fire service.
10 And I think the National Guard model is
11 it. You know, whether it's, as you pointed out,
12 getting time off work for calls but also for training
13 and the benefits of that training to the employer.
14 As I said, I've always thought in the
15 past that, you know, one of the benefits would be
16 afforded to those who serve in the National Guard is
17 tuition assistance to go to a state-system school,
18 based on how much time you serve.
19 And you know, all those kind of things
20 to model our fire emergency services more - moreover,
21 more towards what the National Guard already is, is
22 something to think about. And I appreciate you putting
23 that on the table.
24 MR. JAKUBOWSKI: Our Subcommittee fully
25 supports that.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 90 1 SENATOR DINNIMAN: You can take that one
2 step further, Scott - Representative (sic) Hutchinson.
3 That's a great idea in this sense.
4 The National Guard comes out in
5 emergencies. When those floods came out, if you have a
6 crew of people who knew it's their obligation to come
7 out - because you're right, it could be flat.
8 For example, if there's an emergency, we
9 have a crew of people to come out to rescue the dogs
10 now and the horses in our area, because, you know, what
11 happened in New Orleans.
12 They operate separate from emergency
13 services, but they come out when there's - the need is
14 there. So if you model this with what Senator
15 Hutchinson, you - the second part of that model is the
16 National Guard comes out when they're needed. And so
17 when it goes up, you have a crew that comes out in a
18 flood or in - to get the people.
19 And you're right, it was a horrible
20 situation yesterday throughout Chester and Montgomery
21 County, but this is - so Scott - Senator Hutchinson's
22 idea is a great one if we build on it.
23 In Maryland, as you - we give tuition
24 waivers when there's a shortage of nurses at one time.
25 We give tuition waivers whenever an occupation has
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 91 1 problems with PHEAA. Well, it makes perfect sense that
2 the whole community has a problem now with a lack of
3 volunteers that we do the same.
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you, Senator.
5 Representative Saccone?
6 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Have you looked
7 at the - in Allegheny County you have the Fire Vets
8 Program, which is if you're committed to be a volunteer
9 fireman you ge a free community college education.
10 So it's a wonderful program.
11 Unfortunately, we can't fill the requirements. You
12 know, I think there's, I don't know, how many - a
13 couple hundred slots and it's not filling every year.
14 So I mean, these things always sound
15 good, but oftentimes even those things don't - aren't -
16 don't seem to be working. It's a great program. Have
17 you looked at that?
18 MR. JAKUBOWSKI: We looked at it a
19 little bit. Also, Bloomsburg University is offering
20 some fire and EMS -.
21 Actually, if you've providing service
22 and you can document that, that's going toward some of
23 their general collegiate requirements there. So there
24 certainly are several models across the state.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Great. Thank you.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 92 1 Thank you for your testimony today,
2 Greg.
3 Okay.
4 Next I'd like to call Recruiting and
5 Retention Subcommittee Chairman, Representative Farry.
6 Thank you for taking the time to be here.
7 REPRESENTATIVE FARRY: Thank you,
8 Chairman. I appreciate it.
9 Look, I have a second card here. That's
10 nice. Yeah, thank you. Thanks, Rick. I appreciate
11 that.
12 Since Bill Jenaway could not be here and
13 he's probably actually still drying out from the way
14 King of Prussia was affected yesterday, I drew the
15 short straw.
16 But you know, I do want to - and I think
17 I can speak probably for the elected officials here,
18 you know, thank all the men and women, first
19 responders, across this Commonwealth that have handled
20 these flood incidents over the last couple weeks.
21 And you know, oftentimes we forget about
22 the dispatchers as well. And to highlight what Greg
23 said about, despite the calls Mon Co had yesterday, I'm
24 sure their 911 Centers were very busy, but from what I
25 understand, the men and women, first responders and
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 93 1 dispatchers in this Commonwealth did a fantastic job in
2 handling those incidents over the last couple - or
3 couple weeks. So we appreciate that.
4 I know we're way behind in the hearing,
5 and I'm not going to read our report to you. You know,
6 our committee, like all the committees, worked very
7 diligently to put this together. And much of what we
8 have to highlight has actually already been covered by
9 some of the other subcommittees, which I think just
10 again highlights the overlapping necessity to address
11 some of these issues.
12 You know, the reality is we have fewer
13 trained personnel responding to requests for emergency
14 service. And obviously that challenges the overall
15 performance of the system. You know, recruiting and
16 retention is a local issue. It needs leadership and,
17 you know, it's also about marketing.
18 And you must market all the time to
19 bring those bodies in, as well as to keep those bodies.
20 And we've talked at the committee level numerous times
21 about having a cafeteria menu of options to address
22 this. And again, many of those things were - were
23 stated and covered by the other committees.
24 I'm just going to highlight a few
25 things.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 94 1 Word of mouth still seems to be the most
2 effective way to recruit individuals.
3 You know, another thing is, we already
4 have some legislation in place, but clearly there needs
5 to be some tweaking of that legislation.
6 I don't think many of the municipalities
7 are taking advantage of the tax credit that was passed
8 and signed into law that would give first responders a
9 either property tax credit or earned income tax credit.
10 And I think there's been a lot of confusion over that.
11 And we may want to look back at that and try and clean
12 that up.
13 I think all the members of at least the
14 SR 6 Commission and hopefully both committees receive
15 the report that was put together by PSAP. And I
16 thought it was a very good report that they put
17 together.
18 If you didn't get it, let us know and we
19 can make sure we get it out. But interestingly, a lot
20 of the points highlighted by PSAPs are points that have
21 been raised at our committee level and have been raised
22 at the Commission level. So again, it's another set of
23 eyes reinforcing the things that we need to do.
24 Another one of our recommendations
25 relates to the junior program and having a junior
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 95 1 firefighter, slash, explorer program. But what the
2 committees may not be aware of is L&I sent out some
3 information recently on the Child Labor Laws relating
4 to junior firefighters.
5 And in highlighting that, before those
6 junior firefighters can participate in any fire service
7 activity, they need several courses. And some of those
8 courses are not offered in parts of this Commonwealth.
9 And those courses also include a DCNR
10 Wildland Firefighting course, which from the community
11 I come from, the juniors aren't going to be doing DCNR
12 wildland firefighting.
13 I've been working with the State Fire
14 Commissioner on this to try and get some clarification
15 and some resolution. Obviously, as a fire responder,
16 you don't want any of your members to get hurt,
17 especially your members that are under 18.
18 But this onerous policy is actually
19 stopping us bringing in that next generation of
20 firefighters. In Bucks County alone, several fire
21 departments have suspended their junior program because
22 of this.
23 So if you are a 16 or 17-year-old and
24 you come in with the application to join those
25 departments, they're going to say, sorry, come back
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 96 1 when you're 18. How many of those kids do you think
2 are coming back when they're 18? You lost that
3 opportunity to get them on the hook and get them in
4 your station and the adrenaline addiction and community
5 service addiction that goes with being a volunteer
6 first responder is now out the window.
7 This issue has been kicking around since
8 May. And I know the Commissioner's working on it, but
9 we need to get some quick resolution on that, because,
10 again, we're killing ourselves. The 37,000 and change
11 we're down to, that number right now has a chance to
12 increase with these 16 and 17-year-olds, and they're
13 being told to come back when they're 18.
14 And I understand why the fire
15 departments are doing it. It's a liability issue. I
16 wouldn't want to be the chief and own that issue. So I
17 understand those concerns.
18 But again, it just raises another
19 problem that the fire service is facing. And I think
20 EMS has faced a similar issue.
21 You know, length of service award
22 programs again came up numerous times here, and we have
23 some legislation to address that. The New York model,
24 which is a convenience store model that was started in
25 New York, which has several different options, ranging
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 97 1 from posters posted in convenience stores to yard signs
2 to brochures you put in a rack system there that has
3 information about recruiting and retaining volunteers.
4 You know, we may be able to pair with
5 our corporate partners and get them to help us do the
6 recruiting, so find high-volume places, dry cleaners,
7 pizza shops, fast-food restaurants, convenience stores,
8 and get the word out.
9 I know we've actually been fairly
10 successful with hanging banners that firefighters are
11 needed and hanging those banners at high-traffic areas
12 within our community. And there's some people like,
13 gee, I never really thought about being a volunteer
14 firefighter. But if one's needed - and we've actually
15 had some success with bringing those kinds of numbers
16 in.
17 You know, we also are our own worst
18 enemy. You know, we're chasing people away with the
19 time requirements, whether it's training, fundraising
20 and the like.
21 And we've discussed that numerous times
22 at the committee level. Government, you know, fire
23 company, EMS conflicts, which I'm going to touch on in
24 a few moments, you know, and leadership and cliques and
25 those sort of things, you know, to some degree we are
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 98 1 our own worst enemy.
2 You know, we need to also work on some
3 other things. We talked about college and working with
4 the colleges, both as a recruitment tool, but also as a
5 loan-forgiveness program, which is something that's
6 been discussed legislatively.
7 So if somebody attends the state-related
8 - the state system schools or a community college, if
9 you developed a program where they didn't have to pay
10 for, say, six of their credits per semester -. And
11 what they had to do, though, was when they graduated
12 they had to remain active with a fire company or EMS
13 organization in a volunteer capacity in this
14 Commonwealth.
15 And basically every year they remained
16 active out of college, you know, 20 percent of that
17 would go away. So over five years they would
18 essentially pay off the free credits they received in
19 the college system.
20 So one, they're paying less to go to
21 college, they're still a full-time student. And we can
22 work out a system for part time as well.
23 But two, they're also - when they leave
24 school, they don't have as much college debit, but
25 they're still giving back to the community for at least
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 99 1 five years. And maybe that's not the best program,
2 maybe that program can be tweaked, but it's an idea and
3 it's something, I think, worth looking at.
4 Also included in the report is our next
5 steps. You heard Chas's group talk about the need of
6 funding for the State Fire Commissioner's Office. One
7 of our recommendations is a staff position be created,
8 and obviously the state would need to provide that
9 funding, for a state fire recruitment and retention
10 coordinator.
11 It would be that individual's job to
12 travel throughout this Commonwealth, whether it's
13 meeting with a fire department, a rescue squad, a
14 county organization for the fire service, and actually
15 letting them know what's available.
16 Hey, there's a college loan forgiveness
17 program, hey, here's a model recruitment program that
18 worked in convenience stores, and basically help them
19 develop the programs that are needed.
20 The one final issue I really want to get
21 into and it's something I think is really creaming the
22 fire service specifically, and I'm sure the same
23 applies to EMS, is external issues.
24 What I am finding as a volunteer fire
25 chief is I'm spending mor time on external issues than
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 100 1 I am on internal issues. And when I define internal
2 issues, it's fundraising, equipment maintenance,
3 personnel, training and obviously the most important
4 thing is staffing the fire truck on those runs. That's
5 internal.
6 The more I have external issues, the
7 less time I have to dedicate to internal. And when I
8 talk about external, I'm going to run through a few.
9 Conflicts with government.
10 If we're spending our time at supervisor
11 meetings, council meetings, dealing with whatever
12 nonsense it may be, the less time I have to focus on
13 the fire company and running and make sure that - and
14 making sure my team's doing what they need to do.
15 A local one that's actually been arising
16 is an issue with fire code officials and state fire
17 marshals. There's a growing trend - and I don't mean
18 to disparage those folks, because they're in public
19 safety as well, but there seems to be a growing trend
20 where they are trying to create their own fire company
21 within the municipal operation during business hours.
22 Which is great, because I think any fire
23 department would - volunteer fire department would love
24 to help. But they're doing it at a competing level.
25 So in a case that happened recently in
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 101 1 Bucks County, the fire marshal spent his time talking
2 about all the failings of the volunteer fire service to
3 the elected official to be able to get the budgetary
4 and policy support to then have his own firefighting
5 operation.
6 And it discouraged a lot of volunteers.
7 I know one in particular joined one of the departments.
8 He serves in a leadership role.
9 In his 50s went through Firefighter I
10 and was one of the most active volunteers and then
11 assumed a leadership role. And basically that person's
12 opinion is if the local government isn't going to
13 support what we're doing and they don't care about what
14 our opinion is, then why should I do this?
15 Now, that member is still responding to
16 calls, but when that alarm system comes in for that
17 shopping complex at two o'clock in the morning that's
18 staffed 24 hours a day with security, do you think that
19 person's going to get out of bed?
20 Now, they'll get out of bed if it's a
21 house on fire or if that building was on fire or
22 somebody's trapped in a car, but once a volunteer
23 starts ignoring that pager, once they start rolling
24 over in bed and hitting reset or once they're at the
25 dinner table and that pager goes off and they're like,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 102 1 yeah, some of the other team will handle it, that's a
2 bad trend. Because guess what, it makes it that much
3 easier to not respond the next time as well. And I
4 think that's part of the crisis we're facing.
5 When I joined the fire service in '90 we
6 ran 337 calls. My department's on pace for 700 this
7 year, 700 calls. And a lot of them are the automatic
8 alarms that you heard some of the previous committees
9 talk about.
10 Another external problem is SWIF. I had
11 reported to me a fire company that's in another county
12 is having another problem with SWIF and providing
13 insurance coverage. And that's where our Workmen's
14 Comp is right now.
15 And again, that's another external
16 issue. The more complicated it is for the injured
17 firefighter or for the administrator of that department
18 to get that insurance claim, that Comp claim covered,
19 the more they're focused on that, the less time they're
20 investing in the fire company. And eventually they
21 throw their arms up.
22 I think the committees are well aware of
23 the issue that arose with SWIF covering fire police as
24 to whether or not they were going to cover fire police,
25 who are clearly part of the volunteer fire service.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 103 1 They're performing a vital function.
2 Well, if they don't have Workmen's
3 Compensation coverage, do they have an incentive to
4 come out and help our law enforcement with traffic
5 control and keep the scene safe for fire, EMS and
6 police that are on scene? Again, another example of an
7 external issue that's affecting the fire service.
8 This junior firefighter issue that I
9 touched on, again an external issue. It's something
10 going on outside of your fire house that you're not
11 devoting time on that has a negative impact.
12 And what I found is, you know, a I
13 touched on the firefighter role and just resetting the
14 pager when the call comes in, once that firefighter or
15 EMT who's a volunteer starts finding something else to
16 do, finds a new hobby, if you will, it's really hard to
17 get them back in the fold.
18 So I think - I think this highlights
19 some of the other problems that we're facing. And I
20 just want to say that, you know, I think we have some
21 of the solutions.
22 And I'm not sure who originally put
23 together this priority list. I don't know if it was
24 Rick or Nate or whoever, but if you go back and look at
25 this legislative priority list that was developed in
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 104 1 2016 heading into '17, many of the issues you've heard
2 talked about or you read in the PSAP report fall in
3 line here.
4 You know, employer tax credits, the
5 full-time equivalency, college loan forgiveness, you
6 know, school district and community college training
7 partnerships, fire company billing, use of Relief
8 funds, administrative of Relief funds. A review of
9 SWIF, the Volunteer Loan Assistance Program, transport,
10 MA reimbursement, MSOF increases and the grant program.
11 I mean, they're all covered on this.
12 And as we said, we didn't need the report to know that
13 these are things that we need to do.
14 So you know, for the men and women that
15 have taken the time to volunteer for the SR 6
16 Commission, you know, that are sitting behind me and
17 those that couldn't be here today, I want to thank you
18 for again bringing these issues forward.
19 And you know, hopefully, as a
20 legislative body, we can, you know, move forward to
21 address some of these as - you know, before the report
22 comes out or in short order after the report comes out.
23 Thank you.
24 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you,
25 Representative Farry.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 105 1 The junior firefighter issue that you
2 brought up, what's the genesis of the issue? I mean,
3 what caused it? Did they just pull it out of the air?
4 Was there a complaint?
5 REPRESENTATIVE FARRY: My understanding
6 is L&I put out a report that apparently had not been in
7 print in a while, but apparently put out a report
8 stipulating to be a junior firefighter what the
9 criteria is.
10 And once it got out there and got
11 publicized and then got circulated amongst the fire
12 service industry, a lot of people are like, well, these
13 juniors don't have this.
14 A lot of - I can speak to suburbia, but
15 a lot of the suburban departments bring in a new
16 recruit, junior or older, go through an in-house
17 training program, allow them to ride, but it's limited
18 what they can do on the fire ground.
19 They can essentially be a go-fer.
20 They're not going into burning buildings. They're not
21 on hose lines. They're not doing any of that sort of
22 stuff, but they can still be on the fire truck and on
23 the scene learning and helping until they get done with
24 their Firefighter I program.
25 If what L&I put forth is a standard that
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 106 1 everybody's going to have to live by, which is certain
2 courses need to be completed before that junior can
3 partake in any firefighting activity, you know, I -
4 depending -.
5 We've already heard the issue with
6 accessibility of training, you know, especially in the
7 rural areas. I think that's going to be a huge issue.
8 So it's a Child Labor Law issue.
9 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Is it a proposed - is
10 it a proposed regulation or has it - has it gone
11 through the L&I Committee and been adopted?
12 REPRESENTATIVE FARRY: L&I - what L&I
13 did was they published these are the standards for
14 junior firefighters. So I can work on getting it and
15 getting you a copy of it.
16 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: I think we need to
17 bring them in and have that conversation with them. I
18 mean, it would have been nice if they would have
19 notified our committee.
20 I don't know if the State Fire
21 Commissioner's Office was notified that they're - I
22 mean, it sounds to me like they just went out and found
23 the problem and tried to fix it somewhere.
24 REPRESENTATIVE FARRY: He is - he's
25 working on some clarification. I spoke to him last
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 107 1 week at the SR 6 Commission hearing last week. And I
2 know he's working on clarification.
3 But I mean, it's one of the hottest
4 issues we're facing right now because literally, day by
5 day, 16-year-olds are being turned away.
6 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Again, it's a
7 government solution that doesn't work. It does more
8 harm than good. Sorry.
9 Representative Barbin, did you have a
10 question?
11 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: I'm looking at
12 the situation. We've been doing it for almost ten
13 years together.
14 And what we need to do, I think, is
15 something. The SR 6 Resolution Reports come out in
16 November, which means that we're going to have an SR 6
17 for our next session.
18 What can we do today that sticks our
19 finger in the dike and makes us a little better off up
20 until the time we can pass Senate Resolution 6?
21 REPRESENTATIVE FARRY: I think - I think
22 a couple legislative initiatives still need some
23 vetting. I think we may have a hearing on the SWIF
24 issue, you know, sometime this fall.
25 But I think the length of service and
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 108 1 the Relief funds and some of the other Bills may be
2 ripe. They may need a little bit of tweaking, but I
3 think they're probably ripe to move a few of them along
4 now, so -.
5 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Senator Vulakovich,
6 Chairman?
7 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: Yeah, I agree. We
8 don't have much time left before we're done with the
9 session. At the most, I think we have nine session
10 dates -
11 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Yep.
12 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: - at the most.
13 That's why if we could come to some agreement on the
14 pieces of legislation that would push this through -.
15 You are correct, we put that list
16 together because those recommendations there have been
17 around for a while. And I do think the SR 6
18 Commission, at least for a lot of members here, we're
19 actually hearing some of this maybe for the first time
20 and seeing it in print. And be able to think about it
21 a little bit more and tell a story.
22 Because, you know, we keep assuming the
23 data is the same and we repeat certain statistics over
24 and over again. And we need to really show that it
25 really is going down, rather than just saying it is by
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 109 1 - by doing these studies and things like that and
2 ultimately work on the committees. You know, it's -
3 what we've been saying, it just keeps getting worse.
4 It's not getting better.
5 So I think we could use this time - I
6 think it would be valuable. And I think that as far as
7 the two committees, both the House and the Senate,
8 we've already started working - going back and forth on
9 the different Bills and see how we can work it all out
10 and go from there.
11 So it would be really nice if we can get
12 some of these pieces of legislation done, so that SR 6
13 can be the impetus for the next session. So we look
14 forward to that.
15 And the SWIF program is something that,
16 yes, we - I don't know, I'd still like to get a
17 definite answer off the insurance company as to all
18 these people who have claimed that they got cancer from
19 fighting fires.
20 Does anybody have any numbers out there
21 from any of the insurance people?
22 REPRESENTATIVE FARRY: Chairman, as part
23 of the Cancer Presumption Act, L&I is supposed to do an
24 annual report. And that goes to the Labor & Industry
25 Committee.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 110 1 I have not seen this summer's report,
2 but when we had the hearings and vetted that issue,
3 there was a forecast of six to seven volunteer claims -
4 that's volunteer. There's been a lot more career
5 claims. But six to seven volunteer claims per year.
6 And as of the last data I saw, which was
7 last year, it was actually averaging less than that.
8 So the actuaries that came in and basically said the
9 sky will not fall, now looking back seven years later,
10 there are at least six years' later worth of data,
11 their numbers were actually accurate. They were
12 absolutely in the ball park, and it's actually been a
13 little bit less.
14 So you know, again, you had a great
15 hearing, and I thank you for allowing me to be there
16 and testify on the issue. I think we're going to be
17 having a hearing on it.
18 There's clearly some things that need to
19 be vetted out, but that is absolutely a solution that
20 we need to come up with, because again, it's one of
21 those external weights that's pulling on the leadership
22 of the volunteer fire service.
23 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: Okay. All right.
24 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 111 1 Are there any other questions from
2 members?
3 We have two testifiers left.
4 Do you - do you need a break?
5 COURT REPORTER: No.
6 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: You're okay?
7 COURT REPORTER: I'm good. Yeah, sure.
8 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: All right.
9 Good. Good. Then we'll keep going,
10 then, as long as everybody's okay with needing to
11 break.
12 Okay.
13 Next I'd like to call Regulation & Codes
14 Subcommittee Chairman Mr. Ed Mann, Regional Director
15 Provident. Thanks for being here today.
16 MR. MANN: I'm going to back this up a
17 little bit, so - and I'll back up, so I don't get loud.
18 As I look at the committee here this
19 morning, I see a lot of familiar faces. I also see
20 some new faces.
21 So I just want to make it clear to those
22 new members of the committee that I served as the State
23 Fire Commissioner for 14-and-a-half years, originally
24 being appointed by Governor Ridge, obviously worked for
25 Governor Schweiker, Governor Rendell and Governor
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 112 1 Corbett.
2 Governor Wolf saw fit to ask me to do
3 something else, so I now work for the insurance
4 companies as the Director of Training and Education. I
5 also serve as a volunteer fire chief here in Mifflin
6 County.
7 I want to apologize. Nate called me
8 yesterday afternoon and wanted to know where my written
9 testimony was. I told him he'd have it first thing
10 this morning with 25 copies. So you only got my
11 written testimony this morning. And you're all capable
12 of reading, so I'm not going to read it to you.
13 I have to be honest with you, I had to
14 chew a hole in my lip a couple of times with the
15 previous testifiers. And some of it is, is that I
16 almost feel that I didn't accomplish a damn thing as
17 the Fire Commissioner in 14-and-a-half years based on
18 some of the things I heard today.
19 And Senator Dinniman, I guess I'll
20 apologize to you now, because the last time I was
21 honest in a hearing, you took exception to it. It was
22 with Senator White several years ago in a hearing, and
23 accused me of being mean to the committee.
24 And I want to make it perfectly clear -
25 I want to make it perfectly clear. I truly appreciate
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 113 1 what the Committee's trying to do, especially with
2 Senator Vulakovich and Representative Barrar continuing
3 to shine a light on a problem that we've been shining a
4 light on for far too long and nothing's been fixed.
5 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Amen.
6 MR. MANN: Nothing's been fixed. And
7 there's nobody to blame for it. There's nobody to
8 blame for it.
9 And sometimes it's difficult to show
10 your appreciate for what the committee's trying to do
11 when you get emotional. And when I get emotional, I
12 either get loud or I shed a tear. So bear with me.
13 And I took some notes back here, and I'm
14 going to try to cover some of them. One of the things
15 that I heard is interwoven to every report that's been
16 done is money and people. That was part of every
17 subcommittee report I heard.
18 What's it going to take to fix the
19 problem? It's going to take leadership at all levels
20 of government, the state government, local government
21 and within the organizations themselves.
22 Fire departments and EMS companies, like
23 alcoholics, have to admit we have a problem and be
24 willing to do something about it. It does absolutely
25 no good when an organization pays a consultant to come
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 114 1 in and do a study countywide on what you should do to
2 fix the ambulance service, and the recommendation is
3 you should consider taking the five or six ambulance
4 services in this rural county and become a countywide
5 service, only to have the services go, we're not going
6 to do that.
7 Why spend the money for a consultant if
8 you're going to ignore what the consultant has to say?
9 You know, we got to quit - we're never
10 going to return to the days of old. The days of having
11 300,000 volunteers, that ship long sailed.
12 And when I was the Fire Commissioner, we
13 attempted to get an accurate number of even the number
14 of fire stations. We went out to the county emergency
15 management coordinators and asked them please provide
16 us with a list of the fire departments and ambulance
17 services in your county that are currently doing
18 business. We got fewer than ten of those people who
19 responded to us.
20 We made an effort at that time to get
21 the PEMA Director to tie it to their grant money. If
22 you want your EMPG money, you have to give us this
23 information.
24 The PEMA Director at that time didn't
25 have the will to want to hold the counties responsible
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 115 1 for that.
2 When we talk about the younger folks, I
3 believe - and it's no fault of the younger - our
4 society's changed. People don't want - people of all
5 ages, and it's not youth, people don't want to give
6 back to their communities like they used to.
7 And I don't know if it's because we're
8 just too busy with other things, but a lot of things
9 have changed. I mean, when I grew up, I grew up in a
10 house where my dad was the breadwinner. My mom was a
11 stay-at-home mom.
12 When you look a families today, both mom
13 and dad are working. In some cases, mom and dad are
14 working two jobs. So it's difficult to find the time
15 to volunteer.
16 People talked about careers in fire and
17 EMS in Pennsylvania. There aren't a lot of careers in
18 fire and EMS in Pennsylvania. When you consider that
19 there are only like 35 full-time career fire
20 departments in the entire State of Pennsylvania, how
21 many career opportunities are there for a young person
22 to want to be a career firefighter?
23 My son finally gave up on becoming a
24 career firefighter. Had an opportunity to go to
25 paramedic school that would have been paid for by the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 116 1 ambulance service that he worked for. You know what
2 his response was to me?
3 Dad, I work with guys that are 30 years
4 old and I don't want to look like them when I'm 30. So
5 what did he decide to do? He became a cop.
6 I'm not sure if that was the most
7 excellent career move, given our - the way people treat
8 cops today, but that's what he's doing for a living
9 now.
10 The EMS group made the mention of the
11 shift to paid - to paid services. The same thing's
12 going to continue to happen with the fire service.
13 There are more combination fire departments beginning
14 to pop up in Southeastern Pennsylvania and Southcentral
15 Pennsylvania because people simply can't find the
16 people to staff apparatus during the day.
17 I was part of going to a combination
18 ambulance service in this community back in 1989,
19 because we simply couldn't put an ambulance on the
20 street during a day through the week.
21 Now it's become a very large service
22 with a lot of career staff supplemented by volunteers.
23 And now they're having all the issues related to, I
24 can't get reimbursed for what I do.
25 So back to the people and money. People
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 117 1 talked about a state program as far as purchasing.
2 There already is the COSTARs program that fire and EMS
3 can participate in.
4 But here's an issue. I recently called
5 the COSTARs program, because of a major purchase my
6 fire department's going to make. And I asked a simple
7 question. Can you tell me what the COSTARs price is on
8 a particular item?
9 Well, no, you have to read the contract.
10 Okay. So how do I know - well, they agreed to provide
11 a percentage - to sell something at a percentage below
12 whatever the market price is.
13 Well, how would I, as a layman, know
14 what the market price is of whatever it is I'm getting
15 to buy?
16 And the only answer I could get from her
17 was, read the contract. Well, if I go to the
18 salesperson and that salesperson, I say to them are you
19 giving me the COSTARs price and they tell me, yeah, I
20 can beat the COSTARs price, how do I know they're
21 actually beating the COSTARs price?
22 I have no way of knowing what DGS
23 negotiated with the vendor to begin with. So if you
24 want the COSTARs program to work, let's find a way to
25 get DGS to make the COSTARs program a little friendlier
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 118 1 when a user picks up the phone and says how do I make
2 this work to my advantage?
3 Training requirements. There aren't any
4 and there haven't been. There's never been a training
5 requirement for a firefighter in the Commonwealth of
6 Pennsylvania. There is no state law that says you have
7 to do X, Y, Z to ride a fire truck.
8 Now, I can tell you during my ten years
9 of Fire Commissioner we did everything we could to make
10 it easy for an individual to get through the training.
11 And I'll give you the perfect example.
12 At one time if you wanted to do - if you
13 wanted to be a firefighter, you basically had to take
14 188 hours or more worth of training in one bite. You
15 didn't have a choice.
16 We broke the training down into modules.
17 So you have the Introduction to Fire Service, which is
18 a 16-hour program. And then there's the Fire Ground
19 Support Module. So if an individual comes to my fire
20 department and says to me, I don't want to put water on
21 fire, I want to be a go-fer on the fire ground, I can
22 say to that individual, you take the first module and
23 the second module of training, and that's all you need
24 to take.
25 You don't need to take all four modules
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 119 1 of training. So we modulized the training program to
2 make it easier for a fire chief to make the decision on
3 what level of training the individual had to have.
4 If I wanted to squirt water on the
5 outside of the building, I - depending on the
6 leadership in the fire department, you have to take
7 modules one, two and three.
8 If you want to do interior work, you've
9 got to take all four modules. And we did it in a
10 modular fashion, so you didn't have to take all of it
11 at one bite. I could take 16 hours maybe this year or
12 this month and the second module two or three months
13 down the road.
14 I didn't have to take - make that time
15 commitment from day one to the very end of the program
16 at one time.
17 The schools already have the ability to
18 offer the training programs. It was hidden in a fiscal
19 note in a Department of Education funding Bill during
20 the first or second year of the Rendell Administration.
21 So you have a funding piece for the
22 Department of Education that's that thick (indicating)
23 and in the middle of that three little sentences that
24 basically say a school district may offer these
25 programs if they desire. It's a - if you want to do
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 120 1 it, you have the ability to do it. So they can tie
2 fire and EMS training to high school credit to the
3 students if the school elects to do it. And I'm sure
4 the program in Chester County is taking advantage of
5 that.
6 There used to be some programs in
7 Western PA that when the school board administration
8 changed or the school superintendent changed, they
9 would no longer allow the program. So the programs
10 ceased.
11 Regional advisors was mentioned. House
12 Resolution 148. If you've never read the report,
13 please do me a favor. Have your staff get it for you.
14 It was titled The Feasibility of
15 Regionalizing the Volunteer Fire Service in
16 Pennsylvania. And it was probably 2005 is when it was
17 published. And those very recommendations on regional
18 advisors was one of the major recommendations in that
19 report.
20 But again, it comes down to people and
21 money. Well, we'll have the Fire Commissioner do it.
22 Have the Fire Commissioner's Office do it.
23 In my travels as the Fire Commissioner,
24 I came across an organization, a state fire training
25 organization in a state half the size of Pennsylvania
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 121 1 that had more IT people working for the Fire
2 Commissioner than the Fire Commissioner in Pennsylvania
3 has in entire staff.
4 But yet we want the Fire Commissioner's
5 Office to do more. But you're going to do it with 25
6 or 26 people. And you're going to do it with a
7 level-funded budget.
8 Or we'll give you enough money in a
9 budget year to cover your costs of living increases,
10 cover your pay raises, basically, but no additional
11 money to operate.
12 Someone mentioned the Certificate of
13 Need for apparatus. I can recall sitting in front of -
14 and I don't remember if it was the House or Senate
15 Committee anymore, when I made the suggestion with the
16 loan program, that if you wanted a two-percent loan,
17 you proved to us that that piece of apparatus is needed
18 in your community. Whether it's a ladder truck, a
19 rescue truck, a pumper, an ambulance, whatever it is.
20 And at the end of the day, if it's
21 determined that there's not a need for that piece of
22 apparatus in your community, you can still buy it, but
23 we're not giving you two-percent loan money to purchase
24 it.
25 We perpetuate the problem of duplication
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 122 1 of apparatus with the loan program. Because we allow
2 somebody to borrow money to purchase a piece of fire
3 equipment and then put eight air horn trumpets, diesel
4 train air horn trumpets in the front bumper of the
5 piece of apparatus using two-percent loan money. And
6 then we wonder why we have the duplication of services.
7 We do nothing at the state level to
8 avoid it. And I was basically told, now, Commissioner,
9 it's already difficult to recruit people. Now you want
10 to make it more difficult by putting restrictions on
11 the loan program.
12 The National Guard model. And I wish I
13 could get my hands on this. When Governor Ridge was
14 leaving to become the Homeland Security Secretary, the
15 entire Ridge Administration related to public safety
16 was brought together on a Sunday morning. And we had
17 until Monday afternoon to put together - we didn't know
18 that Governor Ridge was leaving then.
19 It was the following week they announced
20 he was going to become the Homeland Security Secretary.
21 But we put together ideas related to Homeland Security.
22 And one of those suggestions was, was to take a look at
23 the National Guard model and relate it to fire and EMS
24 in Pennsylvania to see how we could leverage some of
25 those ideas to make things work.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 123 1 We talked about recruiting. I was an
2 Air Force recruiter for four years. Money,
3 advancement, training, travel, recreation, education
4 and security and satisfaction.
5 It was called the sales mattress. And
6 when you'd come to see me as an 18-year-old, I tried to
7 hook you on one of those things from that mattress.
8 Money, advancement, training, travel, recreation,
9 education, satisfaction and security.
10 Tell me what we have to offer an
11 18-year-old that walks into a fire chief's office and
12 says, I want to be a volunteer or, for that matter, I
13 want to be a career firefighter?
14 Oh, you want me to be a paid EMT for
15 $10.50 an hour when I can go to Sheetz and work for $13
16 an hour and I don't have to put up with some guy on the
17 street spitting on me or kicking at me.
18 SWIF. I just sat in a deposition two
19 weeks ago with five attorneys representing SWIF who are
20 trying to find a way to kick the volunteers out of the
21 Cancer Presumption Law, and they're hanging their hat
22 on something related to the fire incident reporting
23 system.
24 Okay?
25 Five attorneys representing SWIF, not
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 124 1 independent insurance companies, but SWIF, who are
2 trying to find a way to disqualify volunteers from
3 being able to apply for cancer presumption.
4 I'm going to finish by reading something
5 from my testimony I promised I wasn't going to do. And
6 I know we're well beyond -.
7 And you know, when I was the
8 Commissioner, I guess I had to be a little mindful of
9 the time. I'm not the Commissioner anymore. I don't
10 have to worry about you guys calling the Governor and
11 asking him to replace me, so the heck with the time.
12 I'm going to read something to you, the
13 last two parts of my testimony. In closing, I'm
14 reminded of a hearing that took place in 2005 when the
15 House Resolution 148 was reported to the Joint
16 Committee and the Legislative, Budget and Finance
17 Committee. And I was asked by Senator Lemmond, God
18 rest his soul, if I was sounding an alarm.
19 My answer to him was something along
20 these lines. No, Senator, I'm not sounding an alarm.
21 We burnt the place down and now we're all standing
22 around the foundation, trying to figure out what went
23 wrong. And that was back in 2005.
24 We've moved beyond crisis in some
25 communities and are headed to crisis in many others.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 125 1 The time for action is now. The men and women of fire
2 service and our emergency medical services deserve no
3 less and our citizens should expect nothing less.
4 I'll leave you with this. And I said
5 this last week in Dallas, Pennsylvania. I appreciate
6 what the Committee's trying to do, but let's face a
7 political reality.
8 If the leadership in the House and
9 Senate, Republicans or Democrats, and the Governor's
10 Office, regardless of who the Governor is, doesn't take
11 this serious, all the work we're doing now is for
12 naught.
13 And you all know that. And I'm not
14 trying to be disrespectful to the leadership, but
15 that's the political reality.
16 We all know if the Speaker says Senator
17 Vulakovich - or the Senate Pro Temp says, Senator
18 Vulakovich, you're not running that Bill out of your
19 Committee, we all know that Bill wasn't getting run out
20 of the committee.
21 We know if the Speaker's Office calls
22 Representative Barrar, regardless of how angry he may
23 get, if the Speaker says, you're not running that Bill
24 that way, it doesn't get run.
25 Somehow the leadership has to be
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 126 1 convinced that the problems we're discussing are
2 factual. Because if we don't, I don't care what report
3 we give them, nothing's going to change. We'll be here
4 in another couple years trying to figure out what went
5 wrong.
6 So with that, I'll hush and take any
7 questions you have.
8 But, oh, by the way, Representative
9 Tallman, I got to address something with you with
10 certification.
11 Okay?
12 Well, I started in the fire service in
13 about 1973, '74, unofficially. 1977 I started
14 officially.
15 Went into the Air Force. Came to
16 Lewistown in 1986, just as they were beginning the
17 certification program in Pennsylvania.
18 Now, I was an Air Force firefighter.
19 Had been through the Air Force Fire School. Had been
20 through any number of training sessions as a volunteer
21 before I went into the Air Force.
22 And I came to Pennsylvania ten years
23 later, and guess what I had to do if I wanted to
24 certify as Firefighter I? Had to take the written test
25 and go do the practical skills to prove that all the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 127 1 training I had before that I could actually perform.
2 When the certification program was
3 started in Pennsylvania in 1986, you would have had a
4 three-year window, Representative, where you could have
5 challenged the test. You wouldn't have been near as
6 old in '86 as you are today. And you probably could
7 have done the same thing I done, got certified a
8 Firefighter I one week, Firefighter II the following
9 week, and Firefighter III the following month.
10 And I did it all by taking the test and
11 doing the practical skills.
12 Now I'll take questions.
13 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Any questions? No
14 comments?
15 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: I want to talk
16 to Ed.
17 MR. MANN: Yes, but apparently they
18 didn't like my answer.
19 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you,
20 former Commissioner, for your service all those years.
21 Again, we've gone over this so many
22 times. And we've said this for years and years. I
23 said it earlier today. You just highlighted it again
24 with saying - you always bring up there's no training
25 requirements.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 128 1 That's true. But it falls back on the
2 individual fire chiefs. And many fire chiefs are
3 saying, in my department they're going to have this, I
4 want everybody to do this, I want everybody to do that.
5 There's insurance requirements. If we don't do this,
6 we're going to - we won't be able to get insurance for
7 this or that. You know, we run into that balance.
8 I don't know what the answer is to that.
9 Maybe we should get our chiefs together and say, hey,
10 we're in a crisis situation, too. We want to do this a
11 little differently. We need your support on this.
12 That may be - that may be one way to look at it. I
13 don't know.
14 Let me raise one more thing before you
15 comment on that. And there's this balance out there.
16 So we have a problem.
17 You know, we have to - do you need this
18 big ladder truck? Do you need another 1.2 - can the
19 community work on this? Do we have enough trucks? Do
20 we need all this?
21 But you know what, part - that comes
22 back part of bringing people into the fire departments
23 is they want all the bells and whistles and they want
24 all that stuff. But if you don't do that, you don't
25 get all the bid equipment, you don't get all the fancy
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 129 1 stuff, then they don't want to be part of the fire
2 department, which is another battle that you're working
3 with, I know.
4 People are saying, you know, I got to
5 have this stuff to keep these people, you know, excited
6 about coming and sacrificing their time and their
7 personal time. So there's another balancing act there.
8 The credentials are - even in EMS, I was
9 just talking to the EMS down in Fayette County. And
10 I'm not - I'm not so articulate on it, but they were
11 complaining about we have a national credential and we
12 have a state credential.
13 And they don't - they don't talk to each
14 other. You can have one and not the other and why do
15 we have to have - why can't we just have one? Why
16 don't the state just do it?
17 I mean, there's all kinds of
18 duplications of efforts that I think would also help.
19 So there are many, many variables to this problem, and
20 we talked about them.
21 We've been talking about them for six or
22 eight years, and we all keep saying we're not doing
23 anything about it. And I don't see those things in
24 these reports.
25 We talk about them. They throw them out
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 130 1 there. I don't know how many of these hearings I've
2 sat through on this Committee where they bring this up
3 all the time. And we hear it from across the state and
4 I hear it back home, but we're not touching on actually
5 solving these problems.
6 MR. MANN: I believe some of the things
7 that you mention will be addressed in the actual full
8 written reports that are due to the Committee no later
9 than the first of September, if I remember correctly.
10 I don't have my written report from my
11 Subcommittee ready to give to the Committee. I
12 promise, Nate, you'll have it before the 1st of
13 September.
14 A lot of it, Representative, comes down
15 to leadership within the organization.
16 Okay?
17 And we'll go back to a training issue.
18 We can offer - when I was the Fire Commissioner,
19 leadership training was offered at all levels, and we
20 canceled classes due to lack of enrollment, okay. So
21 again, it comes down to a leadership issue.
22 The training requirements and - and I
23 addressed this one time at Bucks County at a Township
24 Supervisors meeting, the Association. And I had a
25 gentleman stand up in the back of the room and say to
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 131 1 me, I was in the volunteer fire service for 40 years
2 and this is all your fault because of the training
3 requirements.
4 Well, first of all, there aren't any
5 training requirements. But let me address this.
6 If you had a family member who was
7 suffering from a heart attack tonight in your home,
8 would you want an EMT or paramedic to show up that
9 didn't know what they were doing?
10 If you had a violent crime occurring in
11 your front yard right now, would you want a cop showing
12 up that didn't know how to use deadly force or a Taser?
13 Heck, no. Why should the fire service be any
14 different? Why should the fire service be any
15 different.
16 During my tenure as the Fire
17 Commissioner, I attended well over a hundred
18 line-of-duty death funerals. Now, most of them were
19 heart attacks and strokes, but I will tell some of the
20 - tell you that some of those were because of lack of
21 leadership in the organization. And lack of training,
22 not only on the firefighter's behalf, but lack of
23 training on the leader within the organization.
24 Okay?
25 We can't back off the training standard.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 132 1 We attempted to modularize the training to make it
2 easier. The Fire Academy continues to build out online
3 training courses. They did the Hazmat Awareness
4 classes.
5 Tim Archer on the staff here provided me
6 numbers. I went down and did a quick look at the
7 people that have taken the class since April. The
8 majority of them that have taken that online class to
9 this point, and it's just a little over 400, I think,
10 are actually EMTs and paramedics that took it to
11 fulfill a continuing-education requirement.
12 So the fire service keeps yammering
13 about, I want online training. You've had it since
14 April and fewer than 200 firefighters across the state
15 have taken advantage of it.
16 Should we quit offering it? No. Maybe
17 we need to do a better job of marketing it.
18 I know the staff here has created two
19 online training programs. So when you come to a
20 resident program, you don't spend the first full day in
21 class. You go directly down to the drill ground.
22 So we need to continue that way, but we
23 can't back off the training standards and the
24 requirements, Representative.
25 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: I can
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 133 1 understand the requirements are out there and you'd
2 like to have a fireman right there to go where the fire
3 goes and a policeman outside if someone's peeping in
4 your window or trying to break into your house.
5 We also have to accept the fact that we
6 can't have all that. We can't afford it. We don't
7 have enough people.
8 So sometime we have to make some
9 compromises and we need to find some work-arounds to
10 make this work, because we don't - we just don't have
11 those resources.
12 MR. MANN: And I think that goes to the
13 standard of cover that the local Government Support
14 Committee has put together, where local government
15 officials can look at that standard and cover and say,
16 I'm willing to accept the fact that I can't meet this
17 standard of cover. But I'm willing to accept the fact
18 that, you know, we may not be able to put five trained
19 people at your front door within so many minutes, but
20 I'm willing to accept a greater period of time with
21 fewer people.
22 And I think that's standard of cover.
23 In fact, the standard of cover was addressed in the SR
24 60 Report. If you go to the back page of the - back
25 page of the SR 60 Report, there's four or five pages
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 134 1 that offer different levels of coverage that a local
2 government could accept. And they basically say, we're
3 willing to accept this risk based on this number of
4 people and this level of training.
5 Again, I think it comes down to
6 leadership.
7 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Representative Barbin?
8 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: Thank you, Mr.
9 Chairman. Thank you, Commissioner.
10 You did a great job when you were here,
11 and you're right about the politics. I'm going to ask
12 you the same question I asked Representative Farry.
13 The SR 6 Report will come out next year.
14 What can we do between now and November that's the
15 low-hanging fruit that gets people to the point that
16 when we come back in March or May and start on SR 6
17 Resolution, that we've already passed one or two of
18 these things? Which one should we pass?
19 MR. MANN: I'm going to answer your
20 question two ways. Realistically, you're not going to
21 get any of them done in nine session days,
22 Representative.
23 All right? That's the truth.
24 The second part of your question is, is
25 take a look at some of the recommendations that were
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 135 1 already made in the SR 60 Report and grab the
2 low-hanging fruit.
3 And off the top of my - a LOSAP would be
4 great in some cases. We do a lot in Pennsylvania to
5 help organizations. We do very little to help
6 individuals involved in our business.
7 A LOSAP. The Loan Forgiveness Program
8 might be a thing to consider. But realistically,
9 Representative, I don't know that you're going to get
10 anything done with only nine session days.
11 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: But you got to
12 try.
13 MR. MANN: And that's why I made the
14 statement earlier about shining the light on things.
15 We can't turn the light off.
16 If you took - take what's left in the SR
17 60 Report and introduce legislation with every item.
18 There were seven of them. Seven of the 23
19 recommendations have already become law.
20 Take the remaining recommendations, put
21 them in the form of legislation and see what happens to
22 them.
23 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: We need two.
24 You're right, we can't pass 16, but we can at least try
25 to do two.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 136 1 What two should we do.
2 MR. MANN: I'll leave it to this
3 organization, this - this group of folks to decide
4 which two.
5 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: You tell the
6 public - the reason we're having a public - a public
7 hearing today is the people that actually have to go
8 into the fires are here to tell us which ones are the
9 most important.
10 I'm willing to stand up and say to
11 leadership or the Governor or anybody, this is what
12 they tell us needs to be done immediately. This is
13 what we need to do in March.
14 MR. MANN: Restore the FTE
15 reimbursement, which should be an easy one.
16 Okay?
17 Restore the FTE reimbursement. Then we
18 eliminate this hassle we have about the training cost.
19 Make that one of them.
20 And - so that will help both fire and
21 EMS. Let's do something about the money issue related
22 to EMS. Because that one is killing a lot of our
23 ambulance services.
24 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: And we are - we are
25 very close to getting a - the Transport Bill done.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 137 1 Plus we did have somewhat of a Medicaid fix.
2 I know it's not enough money, but we -
3 after how many years of struggling to - to get official
4 dollars in Medicaid, we had Representative Causer's
5 Bill passed that will put an additional, what was it
6 four years, 68 - how many million.
7 MR. O'LEARY: $4 million.
8 REPRESENTATIVE BARBIN: We have passed
9 this - these Bills. We passed Chairman Barrar's Bill.
10 We passed Representative Causer's Bill unanimously in
11 the Committee. We just need to get it onto the floor.
12 We got around - it's true. Our
13 leadership passed these Bills out of the House.
14 They're sitting in the Senate. And we
15 have the same sort of Bill that's passed the Senate,
16 Senator White's Bill, that's waiting in the House.
17 MR. MANN: Sir, back to the statement I
18 made earlier. Until the leadership in the House and
19 Senate, not you - not the leadership of your Committee,
20 but the Speaker, the Senate Pro Temp and some of those
21 folks are convinced that there's a problem -.
22 I mean, let's face it. Who controls
23 what legislation runs and doesn't run and what gets
24 reported out of Committee and doesn't get reported out
25 of Committee? The leadership does, not necessarily the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 138 1 leadership of the Committee.
2 And I'm not convinced that the Speaker
3 and the Senate Pro Temp and the leadership on either
4 side is convinced that the problem is - is - exists or
5 that it's not the state's problem to fix.
6 My opinion, for what it's worth.
7 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Even if we pass it on
8 to the Committee, then it sits there and goes nowhere.
9 So they can't stop us from running -.
10 MR. MANN: I understand.
11 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: They've asked us to
12 not do this or that and we've done it, -
13 MR. MANN: I'm with you.
14 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: - and it just sits
15 there, so -.
16 MR. MANN: I remember those
17 conversations we had about the grant.
18 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: There's a lot -
19 there's a lot of special interests, especially from the
20 - when there's Bills affecting insurance companies.
21 And you know what happens when we have
22 insurance Bills and they are very successful of signing
23 them up or watering them down to where -.
24 Just like the direct pay. I think we
25 passed the Bill and it did nothing to help our EMS
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 139 1 people. And which - to this day ticks me off to the
2 end of the world. But you know, we got it done, not
3 the way we wanted.
4 MR. MANN: I understand.
5 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: But we passed -
6 MR. MANN: I understand.
7 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: - legislation at these
8 committees.
9 Tell Siri to be quiet.
10 Comment from any other members?
11 Okay. Representative Ryan?
12 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN: Once again, you
13 got me fired up again, Commissioner. It's good to see
14 you.
15 I'm saying firing up in this context.
16 We're fighting the symptoms. I've been watching this
17 for a long, long time.
18 And you had mentioned a number of
19 things. I believe you were in tenure where we had the
20 Quecreek Mine disaster.
21 MR. MANN: Yes, sir.
22 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN: I am quite sure,
23 in the United States, that was the most brilliantly-
24 executed rescue in the history of the United States.
25 And there was 72 critical decisions made perfectly,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 140 1 simultaneously, and I applaud you for that.
2 I mention it to you in terms of
3 solutions of things. I'm brand new as a legislator.
4 It's been about 20 months.
5 I don't necessarily concur about the -
6 the issue relative to the legislature and things of
7 that nature. And I'm distancing myself, in a sense, so
8 that I can say - at the same time say, you know, look
9 at the nature of the problem, in my mind.
10 I've been keeping companies out of
11 bankruptcy for pretty close to 40 years. And we're all
12 fighting symptoms. And until we start acknowledging
13 the fact that we're fighting symptoms, we're going to
14 fail.
15 And Chas, I think you had a great
16 comment when you bring it up, as did Representative
17 Farry, I believe you all made significant comments
18 today.
19 When you were a - especially a Marine,
20 and I say that in this context, the recruiting effort I
21 would equate to what we do in the Marine Corps. In the
22 Marine Corps we're not promising you anything. We're
23 promising you an eagle, globe and an anchor and that's
24 it.
25 You're going to get to go out and go
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 141 1 into harm's way. And I've been there. I know many of
2 the other ones have been there. I'm an Iraq and
3 Afghanistan veteran.
4 I spent four years in the Marine Corps,
5 in the Marine Corps Reserve. And the firefighters, I
6 have the absolute tremendous - and EMS, tremendous
7 respect for.
8 Our society needs all of us to come
9 together. Chas, you hit the nail on the head when you
10 said, you have to look internally. Legislature, we
11 have to look internally as well.
12 You know, I mentioned about being an
13 expert in keeping companies out of bankruptcy, because
14 I'm facing the same issue trying to convince the
15 Commonwealth that we are facing a financial crisis of
16 unparalleled proportions.
17 I've been in seven nations in my life
18 that collapsed economically. I believe you when you
19 tell me that when we have a crisis in EMS.
20 The problem is we have to sell it to
21 people. And so when I heard the comment from Chas that
22 this - we have to look internally and externally, in my
23 career, I've seen situations where if we cry wolf often
24 enough and look only at assessing the blame and what
25 others can do without looking internally, we're going
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 142 1 to fail.
2 We had a compulsory military service
3 when I was in - when George Washington and I were at
4 Valley Forge. We had a compulsory military service.
5 I'm willing to bet a number of us -
6 Representative Barrar was in the Navy. When he was on
7 the U.S.S. Blue Ridge, as an example, they would have
8 the dual responsibility of being a firefighter.
9 I was stationed at a Marine Air Corps
10 base and was trained at putting out fires at the crash
11 fire rescue for an aircraft, not my primary
12 responsibility, but we had to do it.
13 You've done something that you can sell
14 tremendously well. And it's not just about money.
15 It's about community spirit, community involvement.
16 And it's about the very leadership issue that we have
17 to do.
18 I think it's incumbent upon the members
19 of this Committee to show our leadership that this is a
20 crisis. And I believe that we will.
21 But I think at the same time, to go back
22 to what Chas McGarvey said, is that you also have to
23 look internally. I've seen people buying fire trucks
24 and a fire truck that was $300,000. By the time you
25 put all the bells and whistles on it, it was a million,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 143 1 two, when the community felt it might have need - might
2 have needed $500,000.
3 So I think we all have to look
4 internally and so some real serious soul searching to
5 say what do we need to do collectively to solve it?
6 Because let me tell you what's going to happen very
7 quickly.
8 I'm predicting if the Commonwealth of
9 Pennsylvania doesn't turn around in the next two or
10 four years, we're going to have a disaster in some
11 social area where we need EMS and fire service. And
12 you won't have the ability to handle a surge
13 requirement.
14 As an example, when you talk about 30
15 rescues from water one day and the next day zero, one
16 day you're going to have 30 rescue and only 15 are
17 going to be responded to.
18 And the minute that happens, then the
19 entire public will be on your side. I don't want that
20 to happen. Because good leaders - great leaders, which
21 is what I believe everyone in this room is, will make
22 certain that that doesn't happen.
23 I'm hoping that when this report comes
24 out, we can take a look at real significant,
25 substantive legislative fixes. At the same time I
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 144 1 would ask that you do what Chas McGarvey said, is look
2 internally to see what we need to do to make this work.
3 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Any other comments,
4 questions?
5 Hearing none, we'll go to our next
6 testifier.
7 MR. MANN: Thank you.
8 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Our last testifier,
9 for the Training & Operations Subcommittee, Mr. John
10 Bast, Fire Chief, City of Easton.
11 Thank you for being here.
12 MR. BAST: It's afternoon now, so good
13 afternoon. I'm going to go - you saved the best for
14 last, so I'm just going to start right away.
15 Co-Chairman Vulakovich, Co-Chairman
16 Barrar and distinguished members of the Committee, I am
17 John Bast, Fire Chief of the Easton Fire Department and
18 chair of the Training & Operations Subcommittee and the
19 SR 6 Commission. Next to me is Bill Crowdy, my
20 co-chair.
21 Thank you for the opportunity to speak
22 at the hearing today, which I provided an update on the
23 work that has been done with the Training & Operations
24 Subcommittee.
25 The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 145 1 never defined the true meaning of a firefighter or set
2 minimum-level required training. It's been left up to
3 the individual and municipality and/or fire company.
4 Pennsylvania fire service is the only
5 emergency service group in the Commonwealth with no
6 required training. Law enforcement follows the
7 Municipal Police Officers' Education and Training
8 Commission. And emergency medical services follow the
9 Department of Health requirements.
10 The primary function of a firefighter is
11 to protect the community from disaster situations,
12 including house and building fires, promote an
13 environment of public safety within the Commonwealth.
14 This position also participates in
15 fire-prevention activities, equipment, station
16 maintenance, training dealing with all phases of fire
17 suppression, prevention, rescue and emergency
18 operations.
19 Years ago it may have been - not have
20 been important, but today the public expects
21 professional service for very little cost. Most career
22 departments have an entry-level program that varies
23 from department to department.
24 The same goes for volunteer service.
25 There is no standard or level of training in the
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 146 1 Commonwealth's fire service.
2 Not having the proper level of training
3 will lead to more injuries and possibly line-of-duty
4 deaths. In addition, the public will see an increase
5 in civilian injuries and deaths.
6 Emergencies are not discriminatory.
7 They do not care if the first responder receives a
8 paycheck or not. It strikes the rich as well as the
9 poor, and we have the responsibility to act.
10 Through minimum training standards we
11 wish to achieve a common ground across the Commonwealth
12 and adjust those standards based on rural, suburban and
13 urban settings. We understand the limitations of
14 bringing so many individuals up to this level and that
15 will take some time.
16 We've moved forward with the SR 6
17 Report. We need to focus on the crisis that we have
18 been dealing with across Pennsylvania for over 20
19 years, if not more.
20 Every time a new report comes out it
21 paints a picture that we are afraid to admit is true.
22 Currently there is little standardization of - in
23 deployment and operation of fire emergency service
24 resources and declining number of personnel to respond,
25 in both the career and volunteers.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 147 1 Response to major catastrophic events
2 such as an act of terrorism will require a standardized
3 and coordinated effort in order to save lives.
4 Additionally, both fire and EMS agencies struggle to
5 maintain adequate staffing levels, as both volunteer
6 pools and revenue streams continue to climb, negatively
7 impacting their ability to respond to both everyday and
8 catastrophic emergencies.
9 Our Subcommittee was tasked to look at
10 training and operations. We quickly filled several
11 pages with concerns. And in order to accomplish
12 anything, we need to focus on a smaller area of - with
13 hopes that it will set ground for the future of fire
14 and EMS delivery in the Commonwealth.
15 Our group was focused on using NFPA
16 Standard 1710 and 1720. NFPA 1710 is the deployment of
17 fire-suppression operations, emergency medical
18 operations and special operations by public and the
19 career fire departments. NFPA 1720 is the standard for
20 volunteer departments.
21 When we talk about 1710 and 1720, it
22 provides the framework for what we will refer to as the
23 standard of cover, which lays out how many trained
24 firefighters and apparatus you should have responding
25 to a fire and allows for fluctuation, based on rural,
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 148 1 suburban and urban settings.
2 If we don't start working on a standard
3 for responses and training, we find ourselves here
4 again in ten years talking about the same problems.
5 Essentially we need an agreed-upon toolkit for fire
6 chiefs, EMS chiefs, municipal managers and elected
7 officials to utilize as reference for addressing
8 staffing, major purchases and operations of a
9 cost-effective, reliable and well-trained all hazardous
10 response team.
11 Emphasis will be placed on the response
12 model. In the event of a terrorist bombing or similar
13 attack, will minimize loss of life and maximize effort,
14 saving lives, property, loss of income, interruption of
15 commerce and environmental effects.
16 Our final report will provide additional
17 information regarding the standard of cover and minimum
18 training standards, which we hope will set the stage
19 for change across the Commonwealth. Many of the topics
20 we have discussed cross over subcommittees and we
21 support the direction of all groups as we move forward.
22 But we need to remember that if we don't
23 act on a crisis, it's only going to get worse. In
24 order for us to provide training to our first
25 responder, our State Fire Academy needs to be funded to
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 149 1 support our path forward and includes additional
2 staffing.
3 We need to make sure that our
4 educational agencies all over the Commonwealth that are
5 providing fire and EMS training are funded and
6 supported to deliver the education our first responders
7 need to provide haz - provide the all hazards service
8 our citizens demand.
9 In closing, as we move forward with the
10 SR 6 Report, we urge you to step back, look at the
11 making - fundamental changes in the way fire and EMS
12 services are delivered across the Commonwealth.
13 And before I close, last week I was in
14 Dallas, Texas, with Chief McGarvey and Commissioner
15 Mann, and the theme was inspire. And there were quotes
16 all over the place, and the one that caught my eye was,
17 and let me pull it out, a firefighter only educated at
18 the Academy is an uneducated firefighter.
19 Thank you. Are there any questions?
20 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
21 How many - and I'm sure - but how many
22 states are in the same situation as us as far as
23 regulations?
24 MR. BAST: This is across the entire
25 nation. In talking to even some of the international
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 150 1 chiefs that were there that had the volunteer service,
2 it's - it's a crisis all over the world.
3 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: There's - there's
4 really no - do we need to reinvent the wheel here or is
5 the wheel out there and we're just - we just can't see
6 it?
7 MR. BAST: We need to clean our glasses,
8 because it's out there. We've talked about it in the
9 other subcommittees and you heard it. Maryland has a
10 program. Virginia has a program. I'd like to - right
11 next to the State of New Jersey. New Jersey has a
12 program. And it's not time to reinvent the wheel. The
13 wheel's out there. Let's just - we need to adapt it
14 for the Commonwealth.
15 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: That's great. Thank
16 you.
17 Any other members, questions?
18 Representative Day?
19 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Thank you, Mr.
20 Chairman. And I'd like to thank you for your testimony
21 today. I - we have a responsibility to establish
22 policy, you know, statewide policy. And I'm always
23 fascinated. It's hard for me to make the jump - I look
24 at the paid fire service, career fire service and
25 volunteer fire service as providing the similar
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 151 1 services to the community, but the functions don't
2 always support each function. I always look at - I
3 worked and lived in the City of Allentown, you know,
4 105,000 people. Now I work and live in a municipality
5 with 5,000 people. So I've looked at both situations
6 and I know I got better fire coverage when I'm in the
7 urban area because it's concentrated and you use your
8 dollars better.
9 ---
10 (WHEREUPON, THERE WAS A BRIEF INTERRUPTION IN THE
11 PROCEEDINGS.)
12 ---
13 REPRESENTATIVE DAY:
14 Next - many of the people - did you guys
15 do that or did I do that? Is that the siren?
16 Basically the question is, many of the
17 people who sit on this Commission and Committee
18 throughout the years that I've been in the legislature,
19 a lot of our career services push for equality with
20 support from the state. And I'd like to understand,
21 when we have people from the community coming forward
22 and contributing their time, time, and you're - you're
23 the chief, time, man hours and benefits and everything,
24 had to be about 80 percent of your budget, maybe 70
25 percent of emergency services?
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 152 1 MR. BAST: Try 97 percent.
2 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Ninety-seven (97)
3 percent. So that makes my point even more poignant,
4 that these people in these communities are coming
5 forward and donating 97 percent of the cost of fire
6 service. So shouldn't the State take a different
7 position on what we pay for to reward that community
8 that's actually donating their time? So I'd like to
9 understand really from the career guys like yourself
10 and other people that you're working with on this
11 Committee, and as always, I really appreciate the
12 service, you know, to Lehigh Valley that you provide
13 and also by being here today on all these Committees.
14 MR. BAST: Well, thank you.
15 The one thing I can say about bringing
16 this SR 6 Committee together and working within my - my
17 committee was not finding the differences. We came
18 together as career voluntarily. We left those off to
19 the side. We have one mission, and that is to protect
20 lives and property in the Commonwealth.
21 The funding. When I lived in the City
22 of Easton, I paid taxes to the Commonwealth. Why are -
23 why are you trying to take money away from me also?
24 The majority of the population lives in the urban
25 centers, and why should we be penalized?
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 153 1 I haven't seen - like I said, coming
2 together with this group, we are more unified now than
3 we have ever been. And it's one mission out there.
4 I have the same problems as a career
5 chief that the volunteer chiefs do. Last year I had a
6 fire - a wind-driven fire close together and it was in
7 the middle of the day. And either due to whatever - I
8 had two platoons that were off. Out of the 20-some
9 that were available, I was only able to get ten
10 additional firefighters. I had to bring in mutual aid
11 and work with my mutual aid, which when we get
12 together, it's not a problem. We have the job. We
13 know what the job is. But I was also, in the back of
14 my mind, thinking, if I'm pulling people from the
15 townships out, who's providing fire protection for
16 them? So we got to look at that - the whole system
17 itself.
18 And maybe the whole system is going back
19 and looking at a combination system. We are not going
20 to get rid of the volunteers if we go to that - that
21 model. Maryland, Virginia, the Carolinas, they have
22 that model. We're not going to push out the
23 volunteers. I think we talked - or we talked about job
24 security and the number of jobs that are out there.
25 You're right, there's only 35 full-time career
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 154 1 departments. And if I'm lucky, when I go through the
2 process every two years, I may hire only one or two
3 people coming off that list. And the time that I spend
4 giving the examination, the physicals and all the
5 background information that the volunteer fire service
6 is also doing, maybe not so much with the physical or
7 the written exam in the initial part, but I spend a lot
8 of time doing that. I'm doing mostly HR work.
9 We are - in the cities we are spending
10 obviously payroll and benefits, but I got to be able to
11 buy a fire truck every now and then. And we get - we
12 get used more often. That's probably about the biggest
13 difference we have between Allentown, Easton, Reading,
14 Wilkes-Barre, compared to some of the rural areas. We
15 just get - we just get more work.
16 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Mr. Chairman, I
17 don't know that he answered my question fully and, you
18 know, it's one that you weren't prepared for and I
19 appreciate -.
20 MR. BAST: It was kind of off the cuff,
21 but I think, you know, hey, I pay my taxes. I want my
22 - my share.
23 REPRESENTATIVE DAY: I think you did a
24 good job. The main thing I try to do is put out there
25 one of the hurdles mentally what I have in setting up
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 155 1 the whole policy for the Commonwealth. And I think
2 it's important that we all just put out our thoughts so
3 that we can come to a good conclusion for fire service
4 for the Commonwealth.
5 Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you.
7 Any other comments from anybody?
8 Questions? Anyone?
9 Chairman Vulakovich, any closing
10 comment?
11 CHAIRMAN VULAKOVICH: I think the -
12 especially the last two meetings we had, last week and
13 this week, I can see all the work kind of coming
14 together. I know the SR 6 Commission did a lot of work
15 and many things that were there are the same things
16 we're talking about today. But what I always notice
17 when we have hearings were, there was the - the career
18 was kind of pushed to the back and we were talking
19 about volunteer, because volunteers do have so many
20 problems because they volunteer.
21 We had EMS who would always speak at the
22 end of the hearing. And sometimes there wasn't enough
23 time to get them in. And they would come up and just
24 do a short statement and turn it in. So we also saw
25 the problems that they have now.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 156 1 So what we have done is brought
2 everybody as a group, volunteer, career, professional.
3 And I'll tell you, they're all professional. I know
4 the training that these guys go through. It's
5 absolutely amazing. And they do it on their own time.
6 So everybody's professional. But for the first time we
7 brought everybody together on a common cause. So John,
8 you answered that very well.
9 The other thing is we talked about
10 training. And training is important. Ed brought up
11 about when the police would come to your place, was he
12 trained and how to defend himself and protect somebody
13 else. Would you want an EMT or a paramedic to show up
14 - quite honestly, doctors go through how many years to
15 get their certification to be an M.D. And yet if I
16 have an accident, I'll take the paramedic in a car,
17 vehicle accident every time.
18 And then we talked about the volunteer
19 fire. You know, there's part of being a leader, being
20 in charge. There's some people that sometimes have
21 titles and they have people underneath them, but they
22 don't have a real responsibility that hits in here when
23 something happens. Being a former policeman, my own
24 shift, bad things would happen. We'd get on the radio
25 and tell them if you don't have to go in, wait until
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 157 1 we're all there. Wait until I'm there, so we can do
2 this together. Like the judgment is there. Use your
3 own discretion. When you have to go in and safe a
4 life, you're not going to wait for somebody to go in.
5 But that's part of being a leader, because, quite
6 honestly, the biggest fear I ever had was to show up on
7 a call and something bad would happen to one of the
8 people working on my shift. Because if they're going
9 down, I want to go down with them.
10 And that's what you chiefs and line
11 officers go through all the time when we respond to a
12 fire call. If something happens to that fireman,
13 you're going to carry that with you. And that's why
14 training's so important.
15 But we also realize in certain areas
16 that - you know, we hear from a lot of rural areas
17 where they don't really maybe respond to too many
18 calls. It's a different setting, different
19 environment. And maybe the thing is that they just get
20 there and try to keep the fire to the building that's
21 there. And they're not worried about other things that
22 they do maybe in a suburban area, because of different
23 proximities of things. We need to take those into
24 consideration. Because there's always a thing there
25 where someone has to be really, really trained.
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 158 1 I think - I see the frustration on the
2 faces of all the people that through the years, through
3 my 12 years here talking about volunteer services, I
4 see the things that are happening to the EMS and to
5 fire. And we do really need all to work together. But
6 I'll tell you, I can also see the frustration on our
7 side, too, the frustration because we can't get it
8 done. So we need to look at ourselves and say why
9 aren't we getting these things done? And we know some
10 of the answers why they're not getting done.
11 And you know, to me, my closing remarks,
12 well, I don't give a damn whether it's Republican or
13 Democratic. I don't care whose name's on the Bill. If
14 it's a good Bill, we need to get it done. We should
15 get it done. And that's really the solid issue behind
16 what goes on in government, that there's all these
17 wheeling and dealings that go on. But we're all
18 responsible for that, everybody sitting at this table
19 and not just the leadership, because I know what goes
20 on. And so it's leadership. It's not just leadership.
21 It's also what goes on amongst ourselves. We got to
22 put things aside.
23 We really want to help all of you out
24 here that dedicate so many - and you've been planning
25 for this for decades about this problem coming, and
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 159 1 it's here now. So now it's time to put those things
2 aside and get these things done. And there's a lot of
3 work to do here, but it can be done, because we've got
4 some very capable people here. But we have to set
5 certain things aside is what we have to do. And that
6 is the true reality of it.
7 There are members who, for certain
8 reasons, will not put certain votes up and just won't
9 do it because of their ideology. Well, then you're not
10 going to get anything done. And I got to tell you, if
11 you put a vote up and it's something that we're talking
12 about here, the different things, this is all about
13 public safety. The number one job of government is
14 public safety. And you always have to look towards if
15 it's your mom, dad, child, grandchild and EMS has to
16 respond, you'd want that response time to be as quick
17 as possible with the best people possible. And if it's
18 a fire, the same thing. That's the way I always look
19 at stuff. What would I expect if I was there? And in
20 return, it's not so much what you all can do for me or
21 the people I represent, but what can we do for you?
22 It's a two-way street. And that's what you've been
23 asking for, for a while. So that's my closing remarks.
24 Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Chairman Sainato?
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 160 1 CHAIRMAN SAINATO: Thank you for your
2 testimony and I thank all the testifiers. We
3 appreciate you being here today and all your work.
4 CHAIRMAN BARRAR: Thank you, Chairman
5 Sainato.
6 I want to thank our panel for being here
7 today and all of you for taking time out to be here
8 today. You've provided us with a lot of valuable
9 insight.
10 We look forward to receiving your report
11 this fall, and we expect to be very busy with an
12 aggressive legislative agenda early next season. And
13 for the next nine days, believe me, we have a list of
14 legislation that I think is possible. Even if it
15 doesn't pass both the House and the Senate, we can
16 position it for next year's agenda, if we can get some
17 of this done either through the House or the Senate. A
18 lot of it depends on where it's assigned to once it
19 leaves the House or the Senate also.
20 So I want to thank everyone for coming
21 up today, and this hearing stands adjourned. Thank
22 you.
23 * * * * * * *
24 HEARING CONCLUDED AT 1:10 P.M.
25 * * * * * * *
SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 161 1 CERTIFICATE
2
3 I hereby certify, as the stenographic
4 reporter, that the foregoing proceedings were taken
5 stenographically by me, and thereafter reduced to
6 typewriting by me or under my direction; and that this
7 transcript is a true and accurate record to the best of
8 my ability.
9 Dated the 10th day of September, 2018
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