June 17, 1988 ALBERTA HANSARD 1823

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Lapointe school in Beaumont and are accompanied by their teacher Susan Mackey. I would ask that they rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. Title: Friday, June 17, 1988 10:00 a.m. Date: 1988/06/17 MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce some very special guests in your gallery today. These people [The House met at 10 a.m.] have had the opportunity of sharing many experiences of my last 25 years, and I'd like them to stand and be recognized. First of [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] all, my mother, Mrs. Olga Speaker -- if she would stand -- my wife, Ingrid, and two children, Kari and Mark; my sister Doreen and her husband, Torgny; Ingrid's sister and her husband, Jim PRAYERS and Ann Skretting. I believe Ila Turley is there as well. Ila was a very good friend of the former Speaker of this Legislature. Her husband, Bill, worked with both Mr. Dawson and myself in MR. SPEAKER: Let us pray. terms of politics for many years, and she has many good memo• O Lord, grant us a daily awareness of the precious gift of life ries of the time in this Legislature with the hon. Peter Dawson. which You have given us. So she's a very special friend and guest here today. The other As Members of this Legislative Assembly we dedicate our guest is Mr. Dave Clark, who has worked very closely with me lives anew to the service of our province and our country. in the constituency and is a good friend and ally in the world of Amen. politics. So it's just a pleasure to have them with me all to• gether today, and I ask you all to recognize them. head: NOTICES OF MOTIONS head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I rise to give oral notice of my intention to move, following the completion of routine Orders Funding for Private Schools and before the calling of Orders of the Day and pursuant to Standing Order 40, the following motion: MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Education. Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly, on behalf of all Those who strongly believe in public education in our province citizens of Alberta, express to the hon. Member for Little are concerned about the minister's plan to create what we might Bow, Raymond Albert Speaker, their sincere appreciation of classify as a modified voucher system . The minister is propos• his dedicated service to the people of Alberta on this special ing that two families with seven children can form a private day of Friday, June 17, 1988, marking his 25th year as a school, and with only minimum qualifications these private Member of the Legislative Assembly. schools can then begin to bleed funds away from the public sys• tems. In view of the fact that several school boards have raised head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS serious objections to this proposal -- I might point out to the minister that I met with members of the Calgary school board MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the yesterday, who are extremely concerned about this -- will the Report of Proceedings of the Seventy-Eighth Annual General minister explain to us and to the people of Alberta why she is Meeting of the Alberta Land Surveyors' Association as required intent upon turning over tax dollars intended for public educa• by statute. tion to what I consider very narrow interests?

MR. ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm filing today the appropriate MRS. BETKOWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I think it's important to number of copies of the annual report of the Association of Pro• point out in the first instance that private education has been fessional Engineers, Geologists, and Geophysicists. funded from public dollars in this province since the mid-1960s. I'm also pleased to table the annual report of the Department There has never been a minimum as to what constitutes a private of Public Works, Supply and Services. school in this province, and we thought it was important, par• ticularly given the judgment out of the Supreme Court of head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS Canada, that we set some kind of minimum. That was never there before. So in terms of Bill 27, yes, we have recognized MR. ELZINGA: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure, sir, to introduce that parents have an option for private schooling, an option to you and through you to Members of the Legislative As• which is in a tradition that this province has been based and one sembly, a group of 80 individuals comprised of grade 6 students that is consistent with the Supreme Court ruling, including the from the Wes Hosford school. Joining them are teachers Peter allocation of public funds, in part, to those private schools. Learn, Helen Romao, Sherry Lukinak; parents Sylvia Wedder- bum, Elaine Macartney, Susan-Jane Sudyk, Cheryl Williamson, MR. MARTIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, two families with seven Minna Helwig, Debbie Elliott, Wendy Pawliuk. I look forward children: that could seriously erode the base, and that's the to joining with them later. They are in the members' and public point they're making. That has nothing to do with the Constitu• galleries, and I would ask if they would rise and receive the tion. Now, the minister has her ally Mr. Ted Byfield who thinks warm, traditional welcome of this Legislative Assembly. this is a great thing because it's the end of public education and the start of private education. Knowing they have allies like MR. SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to introduce to you this, I ask the minister to tell us what consideration she has at and to Members of the Legislative Assembly, a group of 25 stu• least given to withdrawing this proposal. dents from my constituency. These students are from the J. E. 1824 ALBERTA HANSARD June 17, 1988

MRS. BETKOWSKI: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm afraid that the think more dollars would go to it," I would be shocked. But the Leader of the Opposition is being remarkably inconsistent in his fact that there is an option in our system, the fact that we fund questions and his observations. If he is suggesting that there be private schools in this province to about one-third of the level if no public funds allocated to private education in this province, they are a category 1 or 2 private school, the fact that we do that is one thing. If he is suggesting that instead of two families those things is, in our view, a balance. When the member says and a minimum of seven children, which also kicks in some that expressing in the legislation that there be at least two fami• controls on Building Code standards -- if he's suggesting that lies and seven students is going over the balance, he may well that is not enough, then perhaps he would like to put an amend• wish to propose an amendment to that section. But what I don't ment on the floor of the Assembly when committee study of Bill like is the fact that under existing legislation there is no criteria, 27 occurs. there is no limitation on families. It can be one person creating But as far as suggesting that we should not be supportive of a private school. I don't think that is in fact correct, and that's private education in this province or that we should not be fund• why we as a government have proposed a limitation in the ing it publicly, I'm afraid we cannot turn back the clock, and to section. do so would be inconsistent with the Supreme Court judgment. This is not taking dollars away from the public system in an MR. SPEAKER: Member for Calgary-Buffalo. inordinate way. We have, as I indicated during second reading of the Bill, a declining number of students in private education MR. CHUMIR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Supreme Court -- I think an opportunity with our new School Act to ensure that of Canada doesn't say in any way that we have to provide any the public system continues to be responsive to the needs of its degree of funding to these schools, and many provinces don't. community, thus not building in an incentive to move away What I want to know from the minister is: why shouldn't par• from the public system. But in terms of a balance, yes, we are ents interested in sending their children to their own private recognizing it, and yes, we feel it's an important part of delivery schools pay for these schools instead of getting $1,500 of public of education within this province. money from the government and now a new exemption from municipal taxation in this School Act? MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, talk about turning back the clock. We thought public education was a reality in the 19th century. I MRS. BETKOWSKI: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Member for point out to this minister that it's not the Leader of the Opposi• Calgary-Buffalo and I: here we go again. The Supreme Court, tion; it's boards from all over the province that are extremely in fact, does say that within the striking of the balance. Alberta concerned about this. At least, then, could the minister indicate has recognized that there is a need for private education. It may to us: does she have any studies? If so, could she tell us in the not specifically say that the dollars that go there should be there, Assembly what effect such a modified voucher system will have but what it does say is that Alberta has struck the balance. To on the public system? Has she checked into other places? pull out those dollars now, to say that we're not going to fund private education by a portion of public funds would, in fact, be MRS. BETKOWSKI: Well, Mr. Speaker, we're getting into inconsistent with the ruling. I look forward to this study in com• debate, but I welcome it, because when the member says do I mittee that the member may well wish to propose, as he did dur• have any studies that address private education and the use of it ing second reading. -- what we have, Mr, Leader of the Opposition, is a decision out of the Supreme Court of Canada in the fall of 1986, wherein MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. they stated that in fact Alberta had struck a balance between the Second main question. Leader of the Opposition. role of the provinces with respect to exclusive jurisdiction over education and the right of religious freedom and other individual MR. MARTIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to designate my sec• freedoms which are guaranteed in the Charter. In order to strike ond question to the Member for Vegreville. that balance, we recognize that some people will not have their needs met in the public system. This is not a lessening of sup• Ethanol Fuels Industry port for public education, which we are proponents of and sup• porters of and, in fact, I'm a product of. But to say that we MR. FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. People in Alberta are well should limit it or wipe it out entirely is simply not consistent aware of the many benefits of an ethanol industry in terms of with the law of the Supreme Court of Canada. providing alternate markets for grain producers, economic de• velopment opportunities for rural communities, moving towards MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, that is an absolute red herring. a renewable source of energy, and the like. But recent studies They didn't tell you that you had to have two families and seven remind us of another very compelling reason to develop an children. The point that we're making is that you're going over ethanol industry, and that is to replace lead in gasoline. My that balance to what they were talking about in this Bill. Can I questions are to the Minister of Community and Occupational ask the minister this then? It's my understanding that the seven Health. Because these recent studies confirm that lead is a more largest public boards in this system, led by the Calgary board, dangerous pollutant than previously realized and that it's par• have all agreed that this is a serious matter; it's over at least 40 ticularly harmful to young children, will the minister add his percent of the student population. Will the minister at least voice to the growing number of well-informed Canadians call• agree to meet with the boards before she proceeds with this ing on the federal government to eliminate lead from gasoline as proposal? soon as possible?

MRS. BETKOWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I have met with, I think, MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, I must admit that it is not an is• close to 90 boards, including the big urban boards. If the urban sue that I have become familiar with. I welcome the hon. mem• public boards were to say to me, "I like private education and I ber's representations and will take them as good advice. June 17, 1988 ALBERTA HANSARD 1825

MR. FOX: I'd like to point out to the minister that the studies lack of response from the New Democratic Party and the Liberal just released in Ottawa indicate that lead is a very serious con• Party. taminant, very harmful to the healthy development of young children, and that Canada's permissible level of lead is 10 times MR. MARTIN: That's a lie. what it is in the United States. I would like to ask the minister if he's prepared to look at these studies, and in the interests of MR. ELZINGA: Mr. Speaker, they're calling me a liar. maintaining the health of Alberta's population and children, Even though the lack of response, we still had our officials would he then be prepared to lobby the federal government for attend. Even though they canceled the meeting, our officials eliminating lead completely before their 1992 deadline? attended and said there was a number of positive aspects to the ethanol industry in Minnedosa. In addition to that, we met with MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, I would be prepared to look at federal and provincial officials on June 9 in Banff whereby we the studies. can pursue a national policy, and there is a consensus. Mr. Speaker, again this is the hon. gentleman who is attempting to MR. SPEAKER: Agriculture, supplementary. gain cheap political points on a very serious issue, and he has not got his facts correct. MR. FOX: Well, the . . . MR. SPEAKER: With due respect, hon. members, we had a MR. ELZINGA: If I could respond as Acting Minister of the discussion yesterday after question period about people inferring Environment, under whom this does fall, to share with the hon. that others were liars, and perhaps we should not have that kind member that as he is aware, it does fall under the federal of demeaning of this parliamentary process continue. Thank government. Lead is to be removed, Mr. Speaker . . . you. Westlock-Sturgeon. MR. SPEAKER: I have two people standing, but the Minister of Agriculture was recognized by the Chair. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is back to the original to the minister of community health with respect to ad• MR. ELZINGA: Mr. Speaker, as Acting Minister of the En• ditives in gasoline causing damage. Although we are moving to vironment, in his absence I'm happy to share with the hon. remove lead by 1992, we are not doing anything to lower the member, if he is unaware, that the federal government has carbon monoxide count in the clean air of our cities. That can decreed that lead will be removed from gasoline by 1992. There only be done by putting alcohol or ethanol in. When will the have been substantial reductions in the lead component in minister demand that the rules for clean air be stepped forward gasoline, and we look forward to a phasing out, and we have in Alberta so we have to use ethanol in order to have purer had discussions with the federal government as it relates to this. gasoline?

MR. SPEAKER: Vegreville, second supplementary. MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, perhaps my colleague the Acting Minister of the Environment would like to answer that question, MR. FOX: Well, if I might, then, to the Acting Minister of the but failing that, I'm sure the Minister of the Environment when Environment Is he aware of the fact that many of the lead alter• he's back in the House would be happy to answer the question. natives being proposed by the petroleum industry are just as harmful as lead and that the best alternative from every angle is MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary question. ethanol? MR. ZARUSKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As we all know MR. ELZINGA: Mr. Speaker, the provincial Department of the here in this House, it's very important that we do diversify our Environment is working on a number of presentations that they farm economy. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. have made to them as to how best we can supplement and com• Realizing that the demand for grain in the world is increasing plement the removal of lead from gasoline. I should share with and prices are going up, would the minister be able to tell this the hon. member that an immediate phaseout of lead would be House at what price it is feasible to use grain for ethanol? very difficult because, as he is aware, there is a variance in refining capacities within this province. In the event that there MR. ELZINGA: Mr. Speaker, the studies that we have read, not was to be an immediate phaseout, it could not be accommodated only our own but a number of other studies, have indicated that by the refineries that are presently in existence. oil prices had to be in the vicinity of $50 a barrel to make it viable. MR. FOX: An immediate phaseout would be difficult, but it's something certainly worth working towards -- 1992: a lot of MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. children bom and affected by lead in the interim. Will the Acting Minister of the Environment and the Minis• Power Rates ter of Agriculture explain to us why he refused to accept the gra• cious invitation of the mayor of Minnedosa to come to that MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my main question is to the Pre• province and see just how ethanol is produced and what benefits mier with regard to EEMA, the Alberta Electric Energy Market• it provides to that community? ing Agency. Although most people and certainly our party would agree with the idea that telephone rates for electricity -- MR. ELZINGA: Mr. Speaker, contrary to what the hon. mem• in other words, equalizing around the province -- helps diversify ber indicated, we accepted the invitation. We have a note here and spread industry, the province is scheduled to take the from the mayor whereby she canceled the meeting because of amount of $50 million to $60 million a year subsidy that they 1826 ALBERTA HANSARD June 17, 1988 put into this plan . . . In order to keep rates fair, they're schedul• prompted us to get into what we'll call the postage stamp rate ing to take that out, which means that they're asking Red Deer, for generation and transmission, that has worked very effec• Calgary, Medicine Hat, all points south, to subsidize the indus• tively -- in the interim, we have also provided a shielding proc• trial expansion of the north where our water is. ess to southern parts of the province. That is part of the issue Now, that is eminently unfair, Mr. Speaker, so I'm asking that the hon. member is talking about which has seen . . . [inter• the Premier will he agree now to reinstate the subsidy that they jection] Would you just let me finish, sir? If you may . . . have been paying to the EEMA plan, in October when it expires? AN HON, MEMBER: If you have more time.

MR. GETTY: Two things, Mr. Speaker. First of all, the mem• MR. ADAIR: I've got quite a bit of time, if you may just let me ber's allegations in leading up to his question are incorrect, and do that. if you start with a false assumption, you end up with a false We have in the shielding process used approximately about decision. Secondly, the whole matter of EEMA, as the hon. $290 million to this point, with one extension to this point in member knows, is the responsibility of our Minister of time. As I said, we're looking at what we can do for the future, Transportation and Utilities. I ask him if he'd like to respond. using the EEMA process to smooth out any rates fights that may occur with the coming on stream of additional power units that MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I think it's important that we out• are under construction now. line again for all members the role of EEMA in its move to at• tempt to, I guess you could say, narrow the disparity between MR, TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, we're getting to the point slowly generation and transmission costs in the south and the northern and surely here. The point is that unless you go ahead with that part of the province. That part of EEMA has worked extremely shielding point, Calgarians will be expected to put up a half a well. billion in the next 10 years or southern Albertans in general will Our concern at the moment is the fact that EEMA as it was go over $2 billion. This is what I'm trying to get at: will the originally structured: is it doing the job that it can do today and shielding continue? Yes or no? for the future, recognizing that we will have other factors in• volved in the decisions as to costs, such as the coming on stream MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I just pointed out that we are look• in 1989 of Genesee 2 -- that's the first of the Genesee plants -- ing at what options are available to us for the future, keeping in Sheerness 2 and Genesee 1 in the period between 1989 and mind that the article that was in the Calgary paper covered what 1991, and recognizing also that we're presently at probably the appeared to be just the shielding costs, yet they should include high forecast scenario as a result of the activity that's occurring not only the shielding costs for the generation and transmission within the province of Alberta now? The generation is starting but also the increased capacity that will be coming on stream. to increase, and we will see an increased amount of power used. For example, right now 6,602 megawatts are produced in the Of course, those costs will be shared by all Albertans as where, province of Alberta, and there is an excess at the moment. It's for example, the costs of Sheerness 1 in southern Alberta were anticipated that by the year 1991 that figure will go up to 7,362 shared by all Albertans at that time. We are looking at how we megawatts, so the additional increase of power sold to the sys• may be able to utilize the EEMA process to assist in smoothing tem will be also part of those costs that will go up as well. out future rates fights that may occur with the coming on stream We're looking at those. of these other plants. MR. SPEAKER: Final. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I'm still back to the Premier be• cause this is a philosophical point. Utilities answered the ques• MR. TAYLOR: Okay, Mr. Speaker. To the minister. Is it pos• tion of sticks and stones; I'm talking about equalized electrical sible that we could export power as Quebec is doing -- and rates whereby the government puts money in so that the south or we're doing a certain amount now -- and use that to help shield the areas that have been primarily developed earlier are not the southern Alberta consumers? shafted. The present system of making the thing pay for itself amongst the consumers shafts the south, and that's wrong. All MR. ADAIR: I think, Mr. Speaker, that particular aspect of the the taxpayers of Alberta should pay to equalize it. Will he not possibility of exporting power is being pursued quite actively agree to that philosophy, that all taxpayers of Alberta should pay with the hon. Minister of Economic Development and Trade and for equalization, not just those that are developed up to myself, working with the province of British Columbia and this extent? dealing with the possible markets on the west coast of the United States and having already in place the line between Al• MR. GETTY: Again, Mr. Speaker, I should remind the hon. berta and B.C. to allow us to do that. The interconnect line is member that it is not the government that has money; it is the there, so there are some possibilities down the road for that to be people of Alberta whose dollars he is calling for. The hon. Min• used at the present time. ister of Transportation and Utilities has just explained to him how it will be handled in the future. Now, having asked the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. question again, I will again ask the hon. minister to respond. MR, R. SPEAKER: A supplementary question to the minister. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, two things that we may be able to As one of the options of smoothing out the impact on the rates try and clear up for the hon. member opposite: the fact that in throughout the province, is the government considering any leg• the smoothing process we're dealing right now with generation islative changes that would bring the cost of a new generating and transmission only, not the distribution costs. Where we had system into the rate structure prior to the generating system ac• a disparity of about 30 to 35 percent previously -- which tually producing power? For the system at the present time the June 17, 1988 ALBERTA HANSARD 1827 cost of the system comes into the rates at the date of production. tion. It is true, and I agree with that proposition, that you should Is there any consideration by the government of a change in that have major pieces of legislation introduced early. It's one of the area? reasons the government introduced their major legislation a year ago -- the School Act, the labour Act -- and wanted people to MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, that has been a concern of ours. study it. We have always tried to give the fullest possible time What actually happens in the process right now is that the utility for debate at all stages of a Bill. I might also say, if you recall, companies provide the information to the PUB, who then that when you're talking about taxation matters, we put it clearly automatically accept all of those costs initially, review it, and in the budget and then provided a great deal of time for budget then look at possible rebates later down the road or the likes of debate. On the other matters, we put them clearly in the throne that. We're looking at whether there's some possible avenue of speech and provided a great deal of time for debate on the putting those costs in ahead of time to remove what you might throne speech. So we have done it with the major legislation, call spiked increase and then the rebate decrease so that it's bet• and we have done it in the budget and the throne speech. ter understood by all of the purchasers and consumers in the One other thing. The hon. member says that legislation province. should be brought in early in the session. This may be. [laughter] MR. SPEAKER: Member for Athabasca-Lac La Biche. MR. R. SPEAKER: I'll tell you, that's good news for the boss MR. PIQUETTE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the minister. To en• at the farm. courage economic diversification, will the minister be willing to Keeping in the same spirit of the history of things that hap• provide price shielding for the small power generation and in pened in this Legislature, I note that on this Order Paper, and the effect increase their price of 5.2 cents a kilowatt after 1995, hav• Premier has already referred to it, we've had some very impor• ing an inflationary addition to their price? tant pieces of legislation -- the School Act, the labour Act, the child welfare Act -- and also a social policy discussion paper. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, after the year 1995 the small power Those very same items were on the agenda of the Legislature in producer, if generating at that particular point in time, will be 1970. Now, I raise the question with the Premier if he could working directly with the utility company, and the forecasts possibly comment on historical cycles. used by the PUB/ERCB at this point in time show a steady in• crease in those costs beyond that So they would be negotiating MR. GETTY: Yes, I'd be very pleased to, Mr. Speaker. I no• directly beyond that, if they are at that particular point in time tice the child welfare Act the member refers to and the social not already into the 20-year contract or the 15-year contract that policy paper. Might I say that one of the problems might have they're going to have to get into right now in order to accommo• been the minister of social services at the time. [laughter] date their request for a levelized price which would allow those However, on this day, and knowing my respect for mothers, costs and that money to come forward before, in order to attract wives, and families, I would say that that was not the problem. the investors and the likes of that. So the 5.2 cent per kilowatt A comment on historical cycles. You can't trust them. Be• hour price that is within our Bill was a price that was set as the cause if you recall, Mr. Speaker -- and I draw the attention of 1995 levelized price, including in the price a factor for inflation the hon. member -- back then they had a new leader, and that for the life of the 20-year contract in order to provide that new leader didn't win the election. We've had a new leader, capacity, and I guess you could say that assurance, to the small and we've won the election. power producers and their potential investors that they will be getting a price. And that was a request that was accommodated MR. R. SPEAKER: Certainly your strategy was the proper one, through the inquiry and by the small power producers. and we realized that after the event of 1971. Hopefully some of us gave you that advice. Twenty-five Year Retrospective In looking back at history again, the Social Credit govern• ment of the day in 1969 ran a deficit. There was a lot of con• MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my questions are to the Pre• cern at that time by the member for Strathcona West, who is mier and possibly to the Deputy Premier as well. Taking a bit presently sitting in the leadership of this Legislature. He de• of licence on this day, looking a bit at history and the possible clared very clearly, and I recall his statement saying that this recurrence of events, I note and hold in my hand a number of government doesn't know the meaning of restraint. Now, I was Bills that were introduced in the last few days of this Legisla• wondering if the Premier could comment on that now, looking ture: the Alberta Corporate Income Tax Amendment Act, Al• at his background and knowledge, and indicate to us what cir• berta Income Tax Amendment Act, Land Titles Amendment cumstances have changed in the intervening years, possibly to Act, Personal Property Security Act, Planning Amendment Act, even change that point of view. Child Welfare Amendment Act. I note from the records back in 1970 that the Leader of the Official Opposition at that time MR. GETTY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I recall making that state• made a very clear case that major legislation such as that should ment, yes, and I think that government back then didn't know be presented to the Legislature so that the opposition has several the meaning of restraint. Having said that I have to acknowl• weeks to study the implications of those kinds of Bill. To the edge that back in 1971 that government introduced a budget for Premier. I was wondering if he could comment on the possibil• the first time in the history of Alberta of $1 billion. As mem• ity of that being a policy at the present time. bers know, budgets nowadays are in the order of $10 billion. So you can see that governments in this country have to be continu• MR. GETTY: It's a very good question, and I really welcome ally alert to exercise restraint and not use taxpayers' money, it, inasmuch as the hon. member and myself were here at that even with good intentions, in such a way that we load debt onto time, and I was supporting the Leader of the Official Opposi• not only today's generation but generations into the future, as 1828 ALBERTA HANSARD June 17, 1988 they have at the federal level when we had governments, not of be, notice he will get? And will that notice be shared with other the support of the hon. member or mine but governments also members of government and members of the public? represented in the House, who felt that you should give every• one something free and then hope that the people never woke up MR. HORSMAN: I, in my discussions with the Minister of Na• and found out that it wasn't free and that the debt was on their tional Defence, made it clear to him that I did not expect to be shoulders. So we'll keep working to exercise restraint. notified of every test that took place in Suffield or other defence research establishments. There were some discussions that my MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is to colleague the Minister of the environment had with the federal the Deputy Premier. Back in 1969 the major debate in this Leg• minister because of their shared responsibilities relative to emer- islature -- and it certainly had a lot of political waves created -- gency services. The Minister of the Environment may be the was the Bighorn dam. It was big news, and we had hearings in person to address the question to, and I would perhaps on his terms of environmental experts. One of the key words at that behalf take the question as notice, although I'm not his acting time that was known in all the households of Alberta was a minister today. cost/benefit study that the government should have carried out The opposition at the time, the Conservatives, firmly opposed MR. YOUNIE: Thank you. Will the minister in his negotia• the concept of big dams on rivers. So I raise with the Deputy tions with his federal counterparts ensure that that notice will Premier, who a few years ago was the Minister of the Environ• include a description of the safety precautions and backup emer• ment would he agree that with age the government he now rep• gency response plans related to the testing and that those will be resents has gained some wisdom in this area by showing support conveyed to appropriate ministers? for the Oldman River and other major water projects? MR. HORSMAN: It has been made clear through statements MR. RUSSELL: Yes, Mr. Speaker. made by the federal Minister of National Defence when he was here in Edmonton this week the types of precautions that are MR. SPEAKER: Edmonton-Glengarry, main question. taken and, of course, the fact that these tests are conducted un• der carefully supervised conditions in a vast area of Alberta, National Defence Tests well out of range of any individual -- or animal life, for that matter -- because of the nature of the Suffield experimental sta• MR. YOUNIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would preface my tion and its size. Me has made it clear that medical personnel questions with a note that the other Mr. Speaker in the Chamber are in attendance and that the tests are carried out with the great• is somewhat of a tough act to follow, but I'll do my best. est of care. I'm relying on his advice to all Canadians to that To the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. effect. When questioned on the issue of post office closures, the minis• ter hides behind the somewhat weak excuse that it's a federal MR. YOUNIE: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, they are hap• issue. Yet on the equally federal issue of testing chemical pening only a few miles from the minister's own riding, in an weapons the minister wasted little time in jumping on the minis• area of the province where winds are seldom a little more than ter of defence and wringing from him a promise that he, the brisk. So I think he should be concerned. Will the minister en• minister, will be notified prior to future tests. I have concerns sure that both the minister of community health and the minister both about the tests and the process of notification. In reference in charge of disaster services not only get notice with sufficient to the minister's illogical argument that we're only testing an• lead time to review those safety precautions but that, in fact, the tidotes and the fact that one can only develop an antidote for a process of notification allows some way for them to recommend chemical that one has, can the minister explain on what author• improvements or modifications to the safety precautions and ity he has it that the Russians have been kind enough to send us emergency response measures? samples of or recipes for their chemical and biological weapons? Does glasnost extend that far? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated, the Depart• ment of National Defence has assured us that they will conduct MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure how the federal these tests in the most carefully supervised circumstances, when government and the Department of National Defence obtained wind and weather conditions are appropriate. The hon. member the types of agents that may be stockpiled by the Russians. I is obviously not as familiar with southeastern Alberta as I am. would assume that they did so by means that are not at the dis• There arc many days when the wind does not blow. He is quite posal of the province of Alberta. But in any event, in my dis• incorrect in suggesting that Medicine Hat is anything like cussions with the minister he indicated that it was quite clear Lethbridge in terms of the amount of wind that was blowing. that they were testing gases for purely defensive purposes, for I just want to respond briefly to . . . The hon. member has the clothing, the respirators, and other goods used by defence suggested that I was only to anxious to deal with this matter in forces in this country on the types of nerve and chemical gases the House in answer to questions posed. That is true. Defence that are well known, apparently, to be stockpiled by the Soviet is a national responsibility; however, the ownership of the Union in large quantities. mineral rights in Suffield belongs to the province of Alberta. It was a clear case of joint responsibility with respect to the whole MR. YOUNIE: Thank you. The fact is they're testing weapons Suffield range, and that's, of course, one of the reasons that I as and antidotes that we have developed in case our use of them, Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs have a direct which they do contemplate, may affect our people as well as responsibility for relating to the Department of National who they consider the enemy. On the matter of notification, that Defence. Because it does involve the property and the personal the minister of defence talked about publicly, I'd like to know security of Albertans, and that is a responsibility that this gov• how many hours, days, weeks, or months, whichever it might ernment is concerned about. So to compare this particular June 17, 1988 ALBERTA HANSARD 1829 department, National Defence, with the post office is nonsense, mentary is to the Premier. In view of the Premier's expressed and the hon. member well knows that. support for parents who stay at home, what, if any, are the tax reforms the Premier is contemplating in order to neutralize these MR. SPEAKER: Next main question, Edmonton-Gold Bar. choices?

Child Care Standards MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I want to make it clear that the gov• ernment support, my own support, is for parents, period. But MRS. HEWES: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. The Premier has made what we want to do is make sure that actions that the govern• some noble statements regarding family life, motherhood, and ment takes -- and government's always moving, trying to do options for parents. I must admit that with his charming ac• things to help people -- don't fall into a habit of providing a knowledgment earlier this morning, this is a hard subject to playing field that's not balanced. In other words, if you take wade into. Yesterday as well the Minister of Social Service told into consideration the federal government, which is now propos• this Legislature once again that there are going to be changes to ing a child care system of some, depending on estimates, $6 bil• the provincial child care program. Now, these kinds of state• lion to $11 billion -- that that be administered in the best possi• ments leave municipalities, families, workers, parents, operators ble way, and that the way it was initially announced, it tended to pretty much in limbo as to what is intended, thus making plan• throw those dollars in favour of parents who have their children ning, including budgeting, impossible. It's important that the taken care of outside of the home. I think most Albertans would government now provide a full picture so that Albertans can want that to be a level playing field, not to take away from those make prudent plans. The minister has said that there will be who need it, but to make sure that it is administered fairly. training standards for staff in child care. This is long overdue. In the area of day care in Alberta, I point out to the hon. The shift is going to take time to gear up for. It will provide member that this government provides more spaces in day care, great opportunities. I welcome it Can the minister guarantee child care, than are needed, the only government in Canada that that there will be increased spaces and tuition loans available at comes even close to that. We, then, regardless of income, pay accredited institutions for early childhood development training? $250 per child. Now, if you have three children in a day care, that's $750 to that family who have their children taken care of MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has made a outside of the home. What are we doing for the parent in the number of comments, one of the last ones being that I had stated home, the mother who stays at home? that there would be training standards. I said that I have that under consideration. There has not been a final decision made MRS. HEWES: What are you planning? with respect to that, but hopefully that will come early this sum• mer. It is my understanding -- and the hon. minister responsible MR. GETTY: That is the challenge. That is what this govern• for Advanced Education may like to comment -- but there cer• ment's determined to do, is to try and make sure . . . And as tainly is an abundance of opportunity in this province, through we've said in this House, the diversity of the makeup of families the colleges and so on, with respect to child care information makes this a complex challenge, because families are so dif• and training leading to diplomas and so on. I think that prob• ferent, whether they're one parent, a single father, a single ably our main concern would be as a rural member, the oppor• mother, unmarried parents, or married parents. So we are going tunities for people in a number of the other areas in the province to try and design programs that help families and make it on a to access that type of information and training. fair basis. I've been talking about support for the family for the last MRS. HEWES: Mr. Speaker, can the minister assure the House three years everywhere I go in Alberta. There's a tremendous that if there are training standards introduced, there will be a response coming from Albertans. They agree with that, because means for upgrading training for present workers and operators they know the future of this province is built on the strength of who want to play a continuing role, as well as newcomers in the home, family, and community. That's what our government is field? going to do.

MRS. OSTERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, that's a hypothetical MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for question period question. In any event, notwithstanding what policy may be in has expired. Might we have unanimous consent of the House to place today, or absence of it, as the hon. member might suggest, complete this series of questions? I think it is important that we, to the best degree possible, make that information and training available across the province. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

MRS. HEWES: Mr. Speaker, will the minister inform the MR. SPEAKER: Opposed? Carried. Thank you. House if the minister is planning to set standards for out of Edmonton-Calder. school care as well and separate funding for out of school care from FCSS? MS MJOLSNESS: Supplementary to the minister, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister ensure that a wage subsidy program be put MRS. OSTERMAN: At this point in time, Mr. Speaker, I'm in place in order that we pay child care workers decent wages only addressing day care and family day homes and child care and recognize their valuable work? with respect to under the age of six. MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think all hon. members MR. SPEAKER: Final. recognize the importance of the work that is done by child care workers. Day care centres are in complete control. The public MRS. HEWES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My final supple• sector and the private sector are in complete control of the man• 1830 ALBERTA HANSARD June 17, 1988 agement of their centres, and there is an inordinate amount of the size of bureaucracy that he has. but I haven't seen any letter, funding going into the parents' hands and directly into the day or I did not send one declining an invitation. [interjections] care centres' hands. Certainly if there is a call for higher wages, that can be achieved. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair would point out that in the course of yesterday there were two hon. members who indeed did the MR. SPEAKER: Additional supplementaries? honourable thing and withdrew comments. One of them was the The time for question period has expired. The Chair has re• Member for Westlock-Sturgeon, and later in the day it was the ceived notification of two points of order, one being from the Minister of Energy, after some time for reflection. I wonder if Minister of Agriculture, the other from Vegreville. perhaps the Leader of the Opposition might indeed find it in his heart to be magnanimous enough with regard to the House on this occasion and to withdraw that statement please. MR. YOUNG: If I could rise on the point of order, Mr. Speaker, which is the one I'm certain the Minister of Agricul• MR. MARTIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, it's always amazing that it ture was raising. It related to an exchange between the hon. comes back on this side, but I will withdraw it. I will say that Member for Vegreville and the Minister of Agriculture. The he was not telling the truth, which I think you will tell . . . concern is one about which you gave an admonition, but I must That's parliamentary. And I think it will be proven by the advise that I clearly heard the expressions "liar" and "lies" com• Member for Vegreville. ing from across the floor. That, under section 320(2) of Beauchesne, of course, is quite out of order and unacceptable MR. SPEAKER: The Chair will accept it as taking it back into parliamentary language. As a matter of fact, page 108 of what is acceptable parliamentary form. At the same time, Beauchesne is almost a full page of citation and reference as to though, the Chair will point out that the Leader of the Opposi• instances where this has not been permitted to be used. tion was a bit foggy in his perception of reality. Because as Mr. Speaker, I've been unable to see the Blues, so I do not mentioned yesterday, one member from this side, of the Liberal know what the official record shows, but I would ask that the Party, withdrew a comment, and yesterday one member of the matter receive some further consideration. government, at the direction and urging of the Chair, withdrew it. So I don't really regard that as having the Chair being biased. MR. SPEAKER: Vegreville. Before we call Orders of the Day, we have a request under Standing Order 40. MR. FOX: If I might, Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, I'll peruse the Blues and make an appropriate decision. But it does MR. FOX: Mr. Speaker, I have a point of order as well. surprise me that the hon. Government House Leader didn't hear Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do hesitate to rise under the pro• the word "liar" plus the six-letter word that is not only unparlia• visions of Standing Order 23(h). I recognize that in the colour• mentary but unacceptable in any form of exchange, that the hon. ful relationship that I and the hon. Minister of Agriculture have Minister of Agriculture used in exchange the other day. So per• had, there are exchanges that go back and forth, and that perhaps haps both ears could be active. forms part of the activities of this Assembly. But I am concerned that in some of the statements that he MR. SPEAKER: Well, with due respect, hon. members, what made that were clearly at odds with the facts about me, he put occurred the other day has no relevance to what has occurred words into the mouth of the very gracious mayor, Her Worship today. Because the Chair did indeed check the record of Han• Beth Gordon, of Minnedosa, by saying that she had sent him a sard of the other day, and it was not recorded in Hansard as to letter saying that due to lack of positive response from the Lib• what might have transpired. That issue is dead and gone, and eral and New Democrat parties the invitation to visit Minnedosa that was pointed out yesterday. was canceled. The fact is that the mayor issued an invitation to Now, with respect to today, the Chair does indeed have the the hon. minister, with a copy to the leader of the Liberal Party advantage of having called for the Blues, and in the exchange it and myself. In a very polite way, I urged the minister to accept comes back here to this statement. Minister of Agriculture: the invitation. I worked behind the scenes with the hon. leader Mr. Speaker, contrary to what the hon. member indicated, we of the Liberal Party and the leader of the Representative Party, accepted the invitation. We have a note here from the mayor both agriculture critics of their caucuses, to co-ordinate a whereby she canceled the meeting because of lack of response delegation from thus Assembly. I met in private with the minis• from the New Democratic Party and the Liberal Party. ter and urged him to take the opportunity to accept so as to The Leader of the Opposition: avoid making this a political issue. The mayor of Minnedosa That's a lie. sent a further letter to the Minister of Agriculture outlining her Now, with all due respect to all members of the House, without intentions to sponsor an information tour on Wednesday, June having corresponding evidence and all the rest of it, it is still 15, again copied to the leader of the Liberal Party and myself. unparliamentary to be shouting at each other, "That's a lie," or My office has been in touch with the mayor on two separate oc• "Liar," and so forth. And while it has been occurring on an oc• casions over the last few weeks, and I myself have spoken per• casion or two in this House, the Chair would hope that the sonally with the hon. lady at length, I really regret that the Min• Leader of the Opposition would do the parliamentary thing and ister of Agriculture has declined to show some leadership in this withdraw that statement as uttered earlier in question period. regard. I'll table the letters that prove the allegations made by the MR. TAYLOR: You read in the Blues, which I didn't know till Leader of the Official position that he so graciously you read in the Blues . . . It said that the hon. leader of the Lib- withdrew. The letter says: eral Party was informed and declined. Did you? [interjection] Due to the lack of positive response to our invitation, The All I can say is I wish he would table that, because I don't have Town of Minnedosa and Mohawk Oil have decided to cancel June 17, 1988 ALBERTA HANSARD 1831

the information day scheduled for June 15th. much the trait of the hon. member. I just wanted to have the No reference to the party I represent or our numerous calls to facts clear on this. We accepted. We communicated. The lack her office, or reference to the Liberal Party. I am aware that the of response comes from the other parties. minister's assistant spoke at length with the mayor, where he explained the minister's reluctance to go, feeling that the ongo• MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, if I may speak to the point of or• ing subsidies they claim exist would be too onerous. The mayor der, this letter quite clearly says "Due to the lack of positive re• also says in her letter that sponse to our invitation," and it's addressed to the minister. It's It was never our intention of creating waves on the political not addressed to the hon. Member for Vegreville or the Member scene and regret any problems our invitation may have for Westlock-Sturgeon. So obviously it's a lack of response caused. through that area. I know I've been copied, Mr. Speaker, but I table those for the information of the Assembly. being of a frugal nature and looking at our rather niggardly budget provided by the government to the caucus, what I was MR. ELZINGA: Mr. Speaker, I must admire the way the hon. hoping to do was get a ride down with the Minister of Agricul• member has a way of twisting the truth, and I'm going to illus• ture in his plane and go down there in class and come back. So trate how he's done it again today. [interjections] I again had we kept waiting for the minister to try to fix a time, and all we the courtesy to listen to the hon. Member for Vegreville. I re• got was going on and on and on. But certainly just the cheap spect very much, too, that we're getting into the latter part of trick he's tried to pull now, that he has to be in the House and June and occasionally tempers on all sides of the House will . . . we don't, is one of the reasons we wanted to be with him. It's sort of like sending three convicts out to a store together: we all AN HON. MEMBER: No excuses. wanted to watch each other; we all wanted to be together. And obviously the Minister of Agriculture didn't want us along. MR. ELZINGA: I'm sorry? And I can understand that . . . [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. The Chair notes that with regard to this correspondence from the town of Minnedosa, her honour MR. SPEAKER: With due respect, hon. members, this is a dia• the mayor, dated June 10, it is indeed addressed to the Minister logue through the Chair. It does not need any additional back- of Agriculture but it also shows copies to Nick Taylor and chat. Thank you. [interjection] It is. Derek Fox. Therefore all three parties were informed, if they all indeed received the fax -- that's as in f-a-x. MR. ELZINGA: I can appreciate, Mr. Speaker, that at times The Chair wonders if perhaps the Minister of Agriculture is like this, sometimes with the frustration of debate one can get a prepared to table the copy of the note which he referred to ear• little carried away, because as you're aware, occasionally it hap• lier in the debate. Depending on the response from that, the pens to me. Chair's further comments . . . But I should indicate to the hon. member -- and he indicated I had implied that the mayor had sent me a letter blaming the MR. ELZINGA: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I'm happy to table the NDP. I never said that. I indicated that we . . . package of documentation whereby the two letters, June 7 and a letter dated May 16, are from me to the mayor, indicating my MR. FOX: You just read it, Mr. Speaker. warmth in accepting her kind invitation.

MR. ELZINGA: Sure, and I'm happy to have him read it in the AN HON. MEMBER: How about the note? record again. I never referred to the letter. The hon. member's trying to twist the facts again. What we did is: immediately MR. ELZINGA: The note from Minnedosa? That's included in upon receiving the facts of the letter from her indicating, be• this. I indicated there were four letters, two of which are my cause of a lack of that positive response -- as the hon. member acceptance of her warm invitation. indicated correctly, our office, Mr. Bard Haddrell, my executive assistant, phoned her and she indicated to us that she had not MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, hon. minister. The Chair will take had the courtesy of a response from the New Democratic Party under review the correspondence as received and tabled by the or from the Liberal Party. We had sent a letter to her in re• Member for Vegreville and the Minister of Agriculture and will sponse to her letter on June 7, indicating our willingness that if I report back to the House on Monday. could not attend for an official to attend, acknowledging that Now, do we have any more points of order? No. this House wasn't sitting. I recognize the opposition parties Standing Order 40, Deputy Premier. have the flexibility of not being here. We've got an obligation to be here. But, Mr. Speaker, she indicated at that time that she head: Mr. R. Speaker's 25th Anniversary did not have a response. As I indicated in response to the ques• as a Member of the Legislative Assembly tion from the hon. member, we did respond. In addition to that, if I can, there's nothing, as I've indicated MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I rise under Standing Order 40, before, that would make me happier in the event that we could first of all to seek the unanimous consent of the House on a mat• have a positive resolution of this. But our official has given me ter of urgency, to proceed with the oral notice of motion which an interim report indicating there are a number of positive as• has now been distributed to all members. The urgency, very pects as to what is taking place there, and again, contrary to quickly: the event is being marked today, the hon. member's what the hon. member indicated -- and I'm not about to use the family is in the gallery, and we would like to have this recogni• language, recognizing it's unparliamentary -- this government, tion time today. That is the essence of urgency to which I seek this minister, is the one who put it on the ag ministers' agenda in unanimous consent. July in Toronto. He indicates that's not the case, but that's very 1832 ALBERTA HANSARD June 17, 1988

MR. SPEAKER: With regard to urgency, only the mover may to our constituencies. So it was quite a different time, and I be• speak. Do we have unanimous consent to agree to the urgency lieve this Legislature has adapted with the times. of the debate? But throughout that quarter century I want to, on behalf of our colleagues, pay tribute to the hon. member and the excellent HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. service he has given. I know he's a well-respected MLA in his riding. It takes a great deal of dedication and a great deal of MR. SPEAKER: Opposed? Carried. Thank you. strong family support for an Albertan to give that kind of service Deputy Premier. on a nonstop 25-year period. So our congratulations and sincere thanks. MR. RUSSELL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker and hon. members. The hon. member hasn't changed very much. We were hav• I'd like to read the motion into the record: ing breakfast the other morning; he's taken to wearing those Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly, on behalf of all funny little Rumpelstiltskin glasses. But he tells me the only citizens of Alberta, express to the hon. Member for Little thing that's changed, his arms have grown shorter and he can't Bow, Raymond Albert Speaker, their sincere appreciation of get that paper far enough away anymore to read. But other than his dedicated service to the people of Alberta on this special that his constant and dedicated and incisive service has re• day of Friday, June 17, 1988, marking his 25th year as a mained there on behalf of the people. I think an achievement Member of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta. like that deserves recognition and warm congratulations, and Mr. Speaker, that is quite an accomplishment, rare and unique in I'm extending that to you, hon. member. our country and certainly rare and unique in this House. Mem• bers will note that the wording of the motion expresses the ap• MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. preciation of the people of Alberta for service to the people of Alberta. MR. MARTIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to rise and Naturally, we know what this House is today and what con• speak for the Official Opposition. I certainly haven't been here ditions in society are today, but I thought it might be interesting for 25 years. As people know, I was elected in 1982, and at that to see what was news 25 years ago. So the archivist in our Leg• particular time coming into the Legislature was a little over• islature Library very helpfully assisted me by looking up the whelming when you looked at the numbers across the side. headlines on the front page of the Calgary Herald of June 17, There were four of us here. One of the things that happens 1963. The main headline was, "Girl Orbits 24 Hours; Spacemen when there are only four of you in opposition is that you get to in Fourth Day." That marked the day of the first woman in know each other on a personal level very quickly, because as space 25 years ago. you can see, there were 75 on the other side. Other headlines that might be of interest to us: "Hays resigns I first met Ray, at least to my knowledge, back when I was as City Mayor." Harry Hays, of course, following his mayor• the president of the party and you were going through a little, ship of Calgary, went on to become our country's Minister of what they might call, filibuster, a real filibuster at that particular Agriculture and then a member of the Senate. He was followed time. I think it was called "Remember the Alamo" with Grant by an alderman sitting on Calgary city council with me at that Notley and Tom Sindlinger, and those were exciting times at time by the name of Grant MacEwan. That's what that was 25 that particular time. As I recall, I think that was about 1980 or years ago. '81. But as I say, when there are just four of you in the Legisla• Another news items said, "Voting starting slowly in most ture, you develop a personal relationship. I would like to say for Calgary Areas." That was the election which sent our hon. col• me, Ray, that I've enjoyed the company. Especially when there league here at the time. were just the four of us, we had a lot to talk about I said to Ray In the U.K., "Tory rebel calls on Mac to quit," referring to earlier on, "Anybody that's been in the Legislature for 25 years Harold MacMillan and his knowledge of the Profumo affair and certainly deserves our accolades," because after five-and-a-half the interesting news about Christine Keeler. years, I wonder about it from time to time. In provincial news an interesting headline, "Dry area may get Let me just conclude and say to Ray, in terms of the per• government aid," referred to the drought in the Palliser Triangle sonality, that I did notice some changes from back when there that year. were four of us to now. Of course, Ray now is the elder states• It was interesting. We didn't have any exact headlines in the man of the Legislature, very calm and determined and certainly sports section, but I think I know what one of them said: "CFL doing an excellent job in terms of agriculture. But I can remem• Training Camps Open. Eskimo Pivot Getty in Top Form." ber when there were four of us, Ray. There were days that you There was another tiny little item which the hon. Member for came in and I saw Ray Speaker be very angry over there in op• Little Bow will appreciate: "Fort Sask.'s Buck Takes Season's position. Many people haven't seen that in this session, but Final Bonspiel." some of the other members would know what I'm talking about. Mr. Speaker, there have been a series of dramatic changes in So we've seen that aspect to him when Ray got up on the wrong our society and in this Chamber during the last quarter century. side of the bed and the government I'm sure, wished he hadn't During that time, of course, some things -- the very important that particular day. things -- have remained constant. Others have changed dramati• But let me say, Ray, that on a very special day like this -- 25 cally as we've gone to becoming a global village, the era of in• years is a real milestone in our history -- it's certainly appropri• stant communications. In those days, the hon. member and my• ate to have your family and your friends here when history is self will recall, we didn't have Hansard or television or even a being written. Let me as part of the Official Opposition just question period, and no research assistance and no research sup• wish our best and congratulate you on 25 years of service to the port. We didn't get monthly pay. We used to come in, have a people of Alberta in this Legislature. session, and then all have to stand in line at a wicket in the Clerk's office and get our cheque for the year and then go back MR. SPEAKER: Westlock-Sturgeon. June 17, 1988 ALBERTA HANSARD 1833

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Let me also add my One of their advisers, by the name of Ross, was often dressed thanks and appreciation and congratulations to Ray and his appropriately as a consultant. Historically, one of the things family. Known as a politician that didn't spend 25 years in the when I first started politics . . . I don't know whether the hon. Legislature but 25 years trying to get into it, I know how impor• Premier or the Deputy Premier recalls this, but as I traveled into tant, because of the politician who's in the Legislature, family Ottawa and also observed some of the historical pictures of Abe and friends are. I'm sure many's the time you had to go out, the Lincoln, one of the things I liked -- and I got a vest suit at that family, and visit and knock on doors and talk to people and tell time when I started -- was to put my thumbs in my vest and them Ray would continue to work for them if they put him back. stand like this. It sort of added an air of confidence to the The very fact that Ray's constituency is considered such a bas• politician, made people think you knew what you were talking tion and almost impossible to touch means we've all had to give about. But anyway, after vests were gone, and in the last few up trying to win the seat and, instead, try to win Ray. We talk to years, I thought there was something better. I have been re• Ray from time to time. I notice the hon. Deputy Premier said he questing this from my wife on a number of occasions -- Father's had breakfast with him the other day. Well, I can tell him he's Day, Christmas, birthdays, whenever I could -- but for some made a mistake already. Ray is not a morning man; you have to reason or other she felt it just wouldn't fit my personality or my work on him in the evening. dress appropriately. Well, I want to thank the hon. Member for But I remember, too, meeting Ray the first time. It was in Edmonton-Glengarry today that he has finally conceded to my the early '60s when I was president of the Social Planning request and made it possible for me to fulfill one of my devilish Council in Calgary and Ray came down. The Social Credit, in little schemes in this Legislature. I'd like to show you at this an attempt to prolong their government, was doing much the time what that desire has been, was, and is possible here today. same thing this government is doing. They announced that they [applause] I've always wanted red suspenders so I could stand had a new social policy, which Ray was talking about. Ray was in the House like this. Notice that the hon. Leader of the Liberal a very good exponent of it, and certainly Ray had a great Party wore a blue tie today, appropriately, so I could be dressed influence. I thought at that time, after talking with Ray, that if in red. this was the type of politician Alberta had, it was really the Mr. Speaker, I'll try not to take too much time of the House, honourable profession many people said it was. I think Ray is I do appreciate the time you're giving me today in recognition. the type of person that brings honour to the profession of But I do want to express some appreciation in the House in a politics. Because it's too often too easy to criticize politicians -- formal way, because many people have done many good things rightfully so in some respects, but maybe on the other hand, we to help me in whatever way I am successful in this role as a live in a fishbowl. Ray has always lived in a fishbowl, and in member of the Legislature. I'd like to thank the Deputy Premier that fishbowl he's always been above reproach. for his kind remarks here today. They're certainly appreciated I just want to take the time to say, Ray, that you're a true son very, very much, I'll make one promise to the Deputy Premier, of Alberta, a true Albertan, and the type of politician that if any• in my next campaign brochure I will not quote him, even though body was starting their son out tomorrow to be a politician and I would like to. But thank you for those kind remarks. It's they wanted to ask him who to model themselves after, he much appreciated by myself and my family. would suggest Ray Speaker as one of the principal ones. Ray, To the hon. Leader of the Opposition, thank you for your may you have 25 more years representing -- however, on behalf remarks. Our association, even though philosophically we are of the Liberal Party. in different areas -- not on all subjects; there are some we agree Thank you. on. But the ability for us -- and it's demonstrated, I think, here -- where we can be different in philosophies, different in terms MR. SPEAKER: All those in favour of the motion, please say of attitude on various subjects, we as members of this Legisla• aye. ture can respect and work hand in hand for the good of the public. I do appreciate your kind remarks to me. I appreciate HON. MEMBERS: Aye. you being able to step over that boundary and make them so appropriately. MR. SPEAKER: Opposed, please say no. To the leader of the Liberal Party, I would like to say that I do recall our first meeting when I walked into the Social Plan• AN HON. MEMBER: How are you voting, Ray? ning Council in Calgary as a new minister of government I must say that I had much apprehension, because I came from a MR. SPEAKER: Carried with one abstention. On this occa• rural background, a background where I was teaching school sion, we'll allow one abstention. and with a high interest in athletic activities, not necessarily in Hon. Member for Little Bow. [applause] broader social policy. I was concerned about people, I guess; I had some compassion. That's why I became the minister. But I MR. R. SPEAKER: Thank you very much. I feel just about as do remember walking in, and the first thought that struck me nervous as the groom that's already at the altar. The Deputy that day was: Nick Taylor, oilman on social policy council; Premier wouldn't understand that yet However, things can there's got to be a conflict Now, since I've learned to under• change, and as time goes on, events occur. stand you better, I understand you can be flexible and adjust to Before I express my appreciation to everybody here, I'd just various modes over a period of time. But thank you for your like to mention one little event that happened this morning that kind remarks as well. was a kind of highlight and something I'd, in a very devilish My further appreciation I'd like to express publicly to my way, been thinking about for a number of years. The hon. family for the many hours of tolerance, understanding, and sup• Leader of the Opposition mentioned the fact that we worked -- port they have given me without criticism, without any negative there were the two New Democrats and two Socreds working talk or problems. To my two children that are at university at together -- in terms of the opposition on a number of topics. the present time I feel a very positive attitude toward being re• 1834 ALBERTA HANSARD June 17, 1988 sponsible in life. I think as parents that's one of the greatest trust is broken, but knowing many of the press members over rewards we can have. I give credit to my wife, Ingrid, who has the 25 years, and some of them in a very personal way, in their steered them along through the difficulties and the problems role their desire is to be objective and to present the news in the and, I would say, at times clarified their objectives appropriately best possible light to the people of Alberta. So I want to just for them. Thank you. express my appreciation for their very important role to the My mother is with me in the gallery today, and that's much members of this Legislature and to the people of Alberta, and appreciated. When I first became a member, she gave me a certainly their association with me over the years. thought which was just excellent wisdom. She said, "Ray, re• Mr. Speaker, I don't want to impose on my colleagues an member in public life that self-praise is no recommendation." I endless amount of reminiscing and so on, and I won't go into a thought that was one of the best pieces of information, and in number of situations that I think would be interesting ex• many, many situations I've tried to remember that Most likely periences. But I'd like to say that the kindness and the helpful• I've forgotten at times and forgotten to be humble. I apologize ness and the opening of doors by many people over those 25 to my mother, but I want to thank her for her encouragement years, especially Premier Manning, who asked me to come into and the just positive contribution she's been able to make to my his cabinet: Premier Strom, working with him in cabinet and life along the way. also very actively in the political organization; Premier Getty; To all of you as legislators and my legislative staff, to your and also Premier Lougheed giving me the opportunity to be at staff, Mr. Speaker, the support staff, to people in the building first ministers' conferences, to be involved in the repatriation of that clean our offices, that bring us a flower once a week: I've our Constitution. Those were special opportunities that I want got to say a special thank you to all of them that have helped me to express a thank you for here today. so much in carrying out my responsibilities in this Legislature. My 25 years of service in this Legislature have always been We all know -- and I know you as members appreciate that -- excellent and gratifying years, and I can say very clearly that that it's persons that support us and help us in many little ways there is not a situation I can remember that was not gratifying that make our job and our stay, sometimes in very trying times, and that was not fulfilling. I have no regrets. And as an added much more pleasant here in this Legislative Assembly. So to comment to my friend Mr. Taylor, I would highly recommend those people and to all of you here and my former colleagues, to young people that they become involved in public life and I'd like to express my appreciation for the contribution and the serve their municipality or their province or their country. It is support you've given me in working through these 25 years as a an honourable role, and people are very good to you if you take member of the Legislature. it in that light. A very special appreciation I'd like to extend to my con• I'd like to mention, though, Mr. Speaker, in the next couple stituents. I was given the honour in 1965 -- and I sat just before of minutes just a few interesting observations I have had with that pillar over there as a backbencher -- to move the Speech regards to the Legislature and my responsibilities as an MLA. from the Throne, and also at that time, if you can believe it, we As an MLA you all know that you're confronted with many, concluded the Speech from the Throne. We were able to debate, many problems, and I'd just like to cite one as the type of ex• and I was able to sum it up and conclude it To the Premier, my treme example that we are often confronted with. A young cou• conclusion at that time in 1965 was a football analogy of how ple phoned me on a Saturday morning, and they said: "We'd this Legislature was just like a football game. So I think it's like to get married. Can we come out to your farm, and could very appropriate that when you graduated from football to be• you marry us today?" So my first question was, "Have you got come the leader of our province, the techniques you learned your medical?" -- because I thought, "We're on the road here" there, I'm sure, would apply to this Assembly equally as well. -- and they said, "Yes." I'd thought there'd be "No" and that But those constituents gave me the honour to represent them, would be the end of the situation. "Yes, we have our medical." and those were my opening remarks, that I thanked them for that Well, I paused for a moment or two and was just about ready to at that time. I would have to say -- and as you will all feel -- I say yes, I could do the job, thinking that I'd tell them the truth thank them again for the many times they've been able to stay on Monday. But I didn't. [laughter] There are many situations behind me and give me their support and their confidence that I like that that we are confronted with. could assist them either individually or by groups to meet some This Legislature is an interesting place as you observe cer• of the goals and objectives they had in their own way. tain things happening. I think of a backbencher, and I'm sure I believe in that. That's the representative process. It's our many of you can identify with this experience. You're plucked roots here in this Legislature. If we forget that those people are out of the back seat as a backbencher with certain limited ex• the ones that graced us with the opportunity to be in this House, perience, the Premier says you are now a cabinet minister, you then we've forgotten what our roots are and we've forgotten have a responsibility and within a week you find that you are an why we're here. I would have to say that's one of the lessons I immediate fountain of knowledge. It's an amazing transition try to remind myself of very, very much. I look at my con• that occurs, and it's happened many times over the years. I've stituents, and I've always said: "They must be more than just seen that happen. But I guess when people are given respon• voters. They are people that are friends and people that are con• sibility, they take that and do their job. fidants." So today it's just an extra pleasure to be able to ex• A couple of other things. Question period in my first four press my appreciation publicly and on the record to those years in this Legislature was nonexistent. We came into the constituents. Legislature, we started with the Speech from the Throne, and To the press . . . There are times in my life when I pause in there was no question period. We started with legislation; there terms of appreciation. But I have learned over those 25 years was no question period. I didn't even know it was an item on that the press is a very important part of the democratic process. the agenda the first four years I was here -- you know, to where That communication between this Legislature and the people of we are today, where it's the prime show of the day. And there Alberta in the most objective possible way is that link of democ• are many other good changes that have occurred. racy that's necessary. I know as members we often say that The other item I've rather enjoyed in terms of changing is June 17, 1988 ALBERTA HANSARD 1835 the security of this building. Some interesting things have hap• head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS pened over the past When I was a minister I had two things (reversion) that could have been serious, I guess, in one sense, but I didn't look at it in that way. The first visitor I had was a sword swal- MR. ZARUSKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's my pleasure lower from one of the mental institutions of British Columbia. today to introduce to you and to the rest of the Assembly, 39 He came rushing into my office -- and the sword was not in his bright and energetic grade 6 students from the H.A. Kostash throat The second instance a few weeks later was a man cir• school in the town of Smoky Lake. Let me just tell the students cling a noose. The Minister of Health at that time -- he had they've just witnessed a milestone in political history. Twenty- stopped in his office looking for me, and the Minister of Health five years is a long time, and I think Mr. Speaker's done it very said, "He's just across the hall." I've thanked Jim Henderson a well. million times for that. [laughter] So this fellow comes into my The students are accompanied by a teacher, Miss Ardell office with the noose, twirling it around. Now, we had security Clark-Tronnes; parents Betty Gawluk, Violet Carlson, and in that building at that time: I had an Italian secretary who was Venetta Bazjan; and by their bus driver Rodney Bothe. Mr. that tall. [Mr. R. Speaker held his hand at waist level] Both of Speaker, they're seated in the members' gallery, and I'd ask that those people were turned around and quickly escorted out the they rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. door. Thinking about it over the years, I'm sure she's the equal of Oscar. [On motion, the Assembly resolved itself into Committee of the Mr. Speaker, overall, in terms of my observations of those 25 Whole] years, the decorum in this Legislature has been a very special thing. As I've traveled to Legislatures in Ontario, British head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS Columbia, Manitoba, I've noted a much looser and different (Committee of the Whole) kind of decorum that was there, a different kind of respect for the Chair. It's a special thing we have in Alberta, and I think as [Mr. Gogo in the Chair] members we've got to work hard to try and keep it that way. It's a very good thing, and I know you're all dedicated to that MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Committee of the Whole please very thing. come to order. The other item I'd like to note are the respect and the com• passion that exists between members of this Legislature today Bill 21 and in the past, irrespective of partisan views, which is certainly Employment Standards Code a tribute to the members and the type of people that are elected in this province. MR. CHAIRMAN: The sponsor has moved an amendment. It I want to thank you, Mr. Speaker, and all of you as members is a government amendment, which has been distributed. Based of the Legislature for allowing this pause in our normal business on the custom of this committee, we will consider the sponsor's to give recognition to my 25 years as a member of this Legisla• amendment prior to other amendments. ture. I humbly accept that recognition, and I'd like to just close Are there any comments, questions, or further amendments it in this way: whatever honour goes with that recognition, I to the Bill? would like to share it with my father, in my father's name, be• Hon. Minister of Labour, are there any opening comments to cause he was the person, back when he was living, that set the your committee study? groundwork in terms of opportunity, in terms of his work in the community, his work with our family, and in his community DR. REID: Mr. Chairman, I do have some. In relation to the service. If I can share that honour, that would be my choice amendment that has been presented to the committee this morn• here today. ing, there are just a few brief remarks, because the amendment Thank you. [applause] is relatively brief. The three elements of the amendment listed as A, C, and D MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, hon. Member for Little Bow. are obviously what one might refer to as minor amendments. When the House adjourns at 1 o'clock today, there is to be a "A" corrects some miswording. "C" has been introduced in re• special reception held on the fifth floor to honour our colleague, sponse to very valid points that have been made both by em• and at that time a special presentation will be made to him on ployees and employers that if indeed someone did not give no• behalf of all members of the House. tice and was leaving employment, say, the day before payday, it is in many cases absolutely impossible to be able to give them their full pay and benefits after all the deductions by the follow• ORDERS OF THE DAY ing day. It's an impossibility, and for that reason we have intro• duced the concept as listed in item C. Item D is an interesting one, Mr. Chairman, in that in section MR. SPEAKER: Might we revert briefly to the Introduction of 53 we have removed the reference to section 55. The difficulty Special Guests? is that in some occupations there are gaps in the employment, and they are gaps that are accepted as a part of the employment. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. For that reason it should not be regarded as continuous employ• ment if an employee is laid off for two months and then hired MR. SPEAKER: Opposed? Carried. Thank you. subsequently for, say, another nine-month period. That again Redwater-Andrew. cleans up a difficulty that became evident in Bill 21. The major part of the amendment in part B is to clarify that there may be delegation of certain duties to employees of the 1836 ALBERTA HANSARD June 17, 1988

Crown within the department or elsewhere, but that in no case good relationship, then it would be obviously a responsibility of can the powers of the director of employment standards under the department and the minister, whoever that may be, to assist section 92 be delegated. That's for very obvious reasons, and I them in contacting a good relationship where there is an entity don't think they need much debate. The matter of witnesses and that would correspond in most aspects to the entity in trouble. the definition of "court" is, of course, a fairly routine matter Such a consultation is going to be quite easy, as I have had a which is frequently found in legislation. number of employer/employee relationships both in the In regard to the rest of Bill 21 and the sections throughout unionized sector and in the non-unionized sector, public and Bill 21, I would like to briefly draw members' attention to some private sector, offer to be of assistance where it may be required aspects of the Bill, without being repetitive from remarks that I in a given entity. made at introduction of second reading. There are some signifi• I've spent some time discussing this, as the committee that I cant changes in this Bill as compared to its predecessor, the Em• chaired and, indeed, the government feel that the open and hon• ployment Standards Act. The Employment Standards Code has est communication between employees and the employer is cru• got a preamble, and that preamble represents very well the aspi• cial to the development of the right kind of relationship between rations of all Albertans in employment whether as employers or employees and employers. Manifestly, Mr. Chairman, this can• employees, but especially those of the employees since the Em• not be solely a legislative or government function. It is some• ployment Standards Act does set out the minimum standards for thing that employees and employers will have to work at. In employees' benefits in the province. The preamble does recog• most cases the successful relationships in this province that exist nize the whole concept of fairness and equity and the fact that in so many entities have been based upon an open and honest whether one is the employee or the employer in a given entity, communications system. Those systems vary markedly across both have got a significant interest in the well-being of that en• the province, but when they work, the benefit to all concerned is tity and its continued existence. of such significance that I would encourage all employees and On the other hand, the requirements that are set out in rela• employers to develop a system which is suitable to their entity, tion to communication and education correspond very well with whatever it may be and wherever in the province it may be. the third "whereas" in the preamble where it addresses the con• The other significant changes I would like to list are to be cept of "open and honest communication between affected found in specific sections of Bill 21. The concept of a deemed parties." Mr. Chairman, members who have read the final re• trust for wages is a new one, and is surely a fair provision in that port of the committee which I chaired in 1986 and whose final when an individual is working for an employer, they are doing report was issued in February of 1987 will remember that con• so on a day-by-day basis and they have earned their wages or siderable attention was paid by that committee to the concept of salary on a day-by-day basis. It is obvious that that money is communication between employees and employers. Indeed, in really, in concept held in trust by the employer until the appro• that committee report it was recommended that this be made priate pay period is finished and, for that reason, should not be compulsory. The difficulty with making such communications available to other creditors of the employer. The provisions that compulsory is that the very varied nature of employment in Al• have been introduced in Bill 21 will go a long way, especially in berta would make it frankly impossible to devise a system that cases where the employee otherwise would not receive their due would be universally applicable and acceptable. The variations wages because of their employing entity being put into receiver• between private and public sector, large divisions of perhaps ship and other situations of that type. multinational corporations and small employer-operated entities, In fact of the complaints that are received by the employ• the difficulties between the single-location entity and the ment standards branch in relation to nonpayment of wages, the multiple-location entity, which we find so commonly in Alberta vast majority of those where the company is not in receivership because of the energy industry in particular -- those variations are dealt with to the satisfaction of the employee with little dif• make it absolutely impossible to have a standard communica• ficulty. There are, of course, the situations where there are tions system, and for that reason it has not been made compul• misunderstandings or varying interpretations of the situation. sory in the Employment Standards Code. But in the vast majority where there is not a receivership, the However, there are provisions for the minister to do certain employees do receive their due wages with little fuss, and in• things through education and communication which promote deed frequently after nothing more than a phone call from the fair and equitable standards for employment in Alberta. There employment standards officer. It is, indeed, in the cases of are provisions for councils to correlate information for the bene• receivership where we have the greatest difficulty in having em• fit of employees and employers. And more important, in section ployees receive their due wages, and for that reason this one 5 are the provisions for the Lieutenant Governor in Council to provision will make a significant difference to a considerable develop a system that could be put into any given worksite in percentage of the cases where wages have not been received in order to correct what may become manifest as a bad relation• the past ship. In other words, if there are sufficient complaints, suffi• Mr. Chairman, in similar vein, we have corrected some pro• cient problems in a given entity, then the Lieutenant Governor visions to do with the payment of wages, and I think that has in Council can -- if that employer and those employees are un• been clarified in many cases. able to develop a sufficiently open system themselves, then a In other benefits that are now laid out in the Employment system can be developed for them and imposed upon them. Standards Act, we have introduced the concept of adoption In actual fact, Mr. Chairman, I would hope, and I trust that leave for adoptive parents as this is felt to be a reasonable bal• this provision will not be necessary, as prior to the imposition ance to the maternity leave received by the natural mother of a through the Lieutenant Governor in Council of such a system, child. That maternity leave, of course, can be taken both pre• then it should be possible by persuasion, moral or otherwise, to ceding and following the delivery, but there is a requirement persuade an entity where there are those difficulties to consult that at least a certain time be taken subsequent to the delivery, with many of the excellent relationships that exist in the and that amount has been balanced by adoption leave for the province. If any given employer has any difficulty finding a adoptive parents. Since in the case of adoption there is not a June 17, 1988 ALBERTA HANSARD 1837 biological function involved, the adoptive leave may be taken by dustry, and elsewhere. The concept of the compressed either parent. workweek is now well accepted. Indeed, there were consider• Mr. Chairman, another significant change has been the intro• able objections raised by employees to the provisions introduced duction of a change in vacation allotment. This is now after five in Bill 60. years of employment with an employer. There is a requirement Similarly, Mr. Chairman, in relation to time off in lieu of for three weeks of vacation with pay rather than the previous overtime, it was brought repeatedly to my attention, both by two weeks. This recognizes the changes in society and indeed unionized employees and by non-unionized employees, that in recognizes what has in most cases been happening in any event many cases they prefer to be able to take time off in lieu of in the Alberta employment sphere. overtime. By the time they pay the taxes and the other deduc• Mr. Chairman, we have introduced changes in termination tions associated with the overtime pay of one and a half times notice by the employer, and we've introduced the requirement the regular pay, the benefit financially is slight In many cases, for a termination notice by the employee. In the case of an especially for women employees, they prefer to take the time off employer, the termination notice has been extended for long- in lieu so they can spend it with their families or fulfilling the term employees due to the concept that is now well recognized responsibilities that go with having a family. For that reason, in law that an employee of longer duration has become more the restrictions that were introduced in Bill 60 have been useful to the employer and has and should have acquired a removed. greater interest in the employing entity. For that reason it is Now, I am aware, of course, of the difficulty that this can only fair that after a period of four years the notice required to create when it is made a condition of employment that employ• be given in the event of termination of that employment should ees accept time off in lieu of overtime. There have undoubtedly be extended. It is done serially to periods of four weeks, five in the past been some abuses of this by individual employers. weeks, six weeks, and eight weeks, after four years, six years, The difficulty is that in trying to circumscribe those problem eight years, and 10 years respectively. In the event that the em• employers, the language is such that to restrict the use of the ployer is not able to give that much notice to enable the em• bludgeon type of employment proposal would in actual fact ployee to seek alternative employment, then the employer will probably in any case restrict the freedom otherwise that employ• have to give wages or salary equivalent to the notice that has not ees wish to have. We have introduced the concept, however, been given. There are, of course, some provisions to cover the that there has to be a written agreement by mutual consent, that situations where it is absolutely beyond the employer's control that agreement can be withdrawn with notice, and that the em• and where the employer himself may in actual fact be incurring ployer cannot terminate employment if the employees decide significant financial losses as the result of cancellation of con• that they no longer wish to take time off in lieu of overtime pay. tracts and other similar events that can occur. That partially addresses the problem. I realize that it does not There are, of course, exemptions for those employment situ• fully address it, but it is a best effort. ations where it is an accepted fact and is traditional, as in the Before concluding my remarks, I would like to address two construction industry where the workers in the construction in• items that have been raised, both within and outside the Legisla• dustry are fully aware that the employment will cease when that ture, Mr. Chairman. One is the matter of benefits for part-time particular project comes to completion. On the part of the employees. There are provisions in the regulatory making pow• employee, if notice is not given, there is no penalty. The wages ers for the Lieutenant Governor in Council to apply regulations due shall still be given, but if there is no notice given, the wages on a uniform, universal basis or to segments of employment do not have to be given straightaway or at the earliest possible Those provisions are there because of the difficulty in putting in opportunity but rather at the normal pay period, a subsequent statute that benefits shall be prorated. It is difficult especially time after the termination by the employee, and indeed there is with the irregular part-time employment, where the number of an amendment, as I mentioned, to that provision. hours worked per week may vary from one week to the next. It Mr. Chairman, we've also introduced in Bill 21 the concept is difficult to prorate the benefits in some cases where there are of a rest period after five hours where the employment situation insured benefits through an insurance company. One obvious is such that it is reasonable to do so. The concept of reasonable• example is, say, a dental plan. Do you prorate the payment out ness is, of course, related to those situations where there is a of the dental plan? Do you prorate the contribution to the dental continuous process such as an electrical generating plant, an oil plan? Do you prorate on a service-by-service basis and that type refinery, and those situations where the employees usually work of thing? on a shift basis around the clock and where in the very nature of Obviously, there are some benefits that can be prorated, and the employment, the breaks for meals, for other requirements, the classic example is, of course, the private pensions Act provi• and the biological requirements, those breaks are taken at suit• sions that were introduced in January of this year which make it able times during the operation of the plant facility. necessary that any pension plan that is offered to full-time em• The other item I would like to address is the concept of time ployees -- if a part-time employee earns one-third of the maxi• off in lieu of overtime. Mr. Chairman, members will remember mum CPP earnings, then they either shall be incorporated into that in Bill 60 of last year there were some provisions address• the same pension plan or shall be in an equivalent plan. That is ing compressed workweeks and time off in lieu. In both cases easy when it is directly related to the dollar earnings. Where the there have been many representations made by employees more benefit is of the nature of a dental plan, it is obviously not so than by employers indicating that there is quite a preference for easy, but the regulatory power is there and will be used where the compressed workweek, where for working longer than eight we can find examples of suitable use of it. hours per day the employee gets complete days off additional to The other item, Mr. Chairman, is the item about the equality the normal days off. Those are the concepts similar to the four of treatment of women, and I would just point out, as indeed the on, four off; four on, three off; three on, four off; 10 on, 10 off; Member for Drayton Valley did earlier on in debate on Bill 21, or 14 on, 14 off that we find in so many continuous operations: that throughout Bill 21 there is no discrimination on the basis of in the forest industry, the oil and gas industry, the drilling in• gender, and that is obviously in concert with the basic Individu• 1838 ALBERTA HANSARD June 17, 1988 al's Rights Protection Act and Alberta Bill of Rights provision set out in our province for employment, but then we go on fur• that apply to Alberta legislation. ther through the Act, and we see the contradictions that occur I think with those opening comments, Mr. Chairman, I will straight off the bat. We have in the second "whereas" of the now turn the floor over to any member who may wish to take preamble: part in debate on Bill 21 at committee stage. Whereas it is fitting that the worth and dignity of all Albertans Thank you. be recognized by the Legislature of Alberta through legisla• tion that encourages fair and equitable resolution of matters MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, hon. member. Perhaps before arising in respect of terms and conditions of employment. proceeding with Edmonton-Belmont, we could get an indication That's the second one. The third one goes on to say that from hon. members who wish to speak on the amendment and whereas the employee-employer relationship is based on a Bill 21. common interest in the success of the employing organization, Hon. members, it has been our custom that the committee best recognized through open and honest communication be• allows discussion on the amendment and Bill simultaneously. tween affected parties . . . The only caveat is that we must deal with an amendment prior Those are two important, perhaps for me the most important, to going to another amendment. So the Chair would entertain sections of the Act, because what the second one says to me is comments, questions on both the amendment and Bill 21 at this that there is going to be the recognition of worth and dignity for point. those who, through their labour, make a living. Later on in the Act it says that disabled Albertans will not The hon. Member for Edmonton-Belmont. have to be paid the minimum rate of pay that is set for all other Albertans. So there we have the first contradiction. Equity? MR. SIGURDSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The minister in No. Dignity? No. Recognition of contribution? I would sug• his comments indicated that there are employers out there that gest not. We have minimum wage rates that are established by do make life difficult for employees at some time, and of course this government currently at $3.80 an hour due to go up to the it works the other way as well. But I want to look at one point princely sum of $4.50 an hour September 1. But if you happen that the minister stated, the particular point of time off in lieu of to be a disabled Albertan, if you have difficulty getting around overtime. He was saying that some employees would not want or difficulty in communicating, a disability that prevents certain to use the option of having time off in lieu of an overtime employment opportunities, and you have to go and work at a job clause, and to regulate that so an employer couldn't use that op• that is less than what you might hope because of your disability, tion would be so difficult and cumbersome upon all employers there is provision in this Act for a director to allow that em• that it's not worth putting that particular section or that particu• ployer to pay less than the minimum wage, less than $4.50 an lar clause into the section of the Act. hour. When we total that $4.50 an hour over the course of a year, we're still below the poverty line. So we're going to allow [Mr. Musgreave in the Chair] disabled Albertans to work and enjoy an income that will prob• ably be lower than the poverty line. Well, Mr. Chairman, I submit that the very point of this Act Now, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that there are many is to protect the employees from bad employers. Now, thank• Albertans with disabilities who are capable of working in em• fully the numbers of bad employers are few for the most part ployment where they ought to be paid far more than the mini• and far between. The role of this Act, as I see it and as my col• mum wage, and I'm sure that many employers, good employers, leagues in the Official Opposition see it, is to protect workers in will ensure that that discrimination does not take place, and they their relationship with their employers, to try and provide a pro• will ensure that those worthwhile employees are paid and paid vision that will ensure there is some form of equity, and that well. But for those few employers out there who are bad, who equity regrettably, for all the minister's statements, is not in this do not treat their employees well, they may very well find that Bill. There's nothing here that guarantees employees are going this section of the Act allows them the latitude to pay their em• to have the opportunity to request that they have no overtime. ployees less, employees that have some very special needs. And The minister says that an employee can with notice withdraw special needs, as we know, are always accompanied by some any contractual arrangement made with an employer so that very special costs. Just kitchen utensils and tools, things that we overtime will not have to be worked. take for granted, come with extra costs for the disabled folk, and Well, Mr, Chairman, there are employers out there that come here we're asking them to live on less money than what we've from large chains. Mariposa comes to mind, the kinds of em• regulated to be as a minimum wage. ployment policies that were going on at that chain of stores. I'm The third whereas: sure that if an employee of Mariposa had a problem with the Common interest in the success of the employing organiza• overtime or the scheduling system, the employer would not con• tion, best recognized through open and honest communication. cede the prerogative or the privilege and would force that em• Open and honest communication: well, I know that the minister ployee to continue to work the amounts of overtime as a sched• would like to provide the opportunity for people to speak to one uled shift. If that employee didn't like it, if the employee con• another, but quite frankly there are occasions when employees tinued to object to that kind of treatment, I suppose that some are being confronted by the employers, say on any organizing members here would say, "Well, the employee always has the drive. How are we going to have open and honest communica• option to quit." But that's not the point. The point should not tion? How is it going to be fair when the employer can go up to be that the option should be to quit. The point is that there an employee and say: "Go ahead. Go ahead and sign the card ought to be an option to ensure that there's some fairness and that allows you to join a collective bargaining unit, and you some equity, and that's not contained here in this Act. know what will happen to you? We'll shut down, or you'll be As we go through the Act, we see that there's not an awful fired." How can we equate the honest communication there? lot that deals with fairness or equity for many Albertans. The That's not honest communication; that's a threat. There ought preamble of the Act talks of certain goals that we would like to to be protections in there to ensure that that doesn't happen, but June 17, 1988 ALBERTA HANSARD 1839 there aren't. There aren't in this particular Act, which deals the majority of Albertans work for good employers. But I had a mainly with the unorganized, nor is it there in section 22 of the case not too long ago in my constituency where a chap had been labour code. working for a poor employer. I would go so far as to say this As to the amendment that the minister moved, the one par• individual was working for a rotten employer who violated ticular section that immediately leapt out at me was the amend• probably every section of the existing Employment Standards ment dealing with pay following termination of employment. Act and who would violate every section of this Act as well. Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm puzzled as to why the minister would What was that employer doing? That employer had this em• find it necessary to include this amendment to this section. ployee working 12 hours a day, seven days a week, day after Let's just go through the section: day and week after week. At one point the employee had put in (3) If the employment of an employee is terminated by the over 50 days straight at 12 hours a day. He was working in a employee without notice under section 56, the employer shall camp. From the time he got up in the morning to the time he pay the employee the wages, overtime pay and entitlements to got back, it was 12 hours. Travel time was not included; travel• which the employee is entitled on the employee's next sched• uled pay day. ing out to work and back was not included. His break time was I don't see any difficulty with that. Surely to goodness the em• deducted off the hours of work. So was his lunch time and his ployer is not going to start adding up the hours or the employer dinner hour. Although he was gone 12 hours a day, he was paid doesn't start the pay period with the assumption that an em• for 10. Worked over 50 days in a row at 12 hours a day. ployee is going to work 80 hours and then make the cheques An employer was taking advantage of an employee. The payable to that employee. I would suggest that when an em• employee didn't think about the Act or how his rights were be• ployee starts a pay period, it goes in on a daily basis, either eight ing violated. Three dollars and 80 cents. When he came to my hours a day or seven and a half hours a day, perhaps 12 hours a constituency office, we had to fight for his overtime. We had to day if we're looking at flextime, and that's added up on a daily go through employment standards to get the overtime that was basis. So we know that after four days the employee has due him. The reason he came to my office is that he was so ex• worked either 32 hours or whatever the total may amount to. hausted on that last day of employment that he had regrettably It's very easy to then calculate the hourly wage and the benefits put his hand, his right arm, into a piece of machinery. That in• multiplied by the number of hours. What this amendment does jury now prevents him from ever returning to work. He was a is allow for an extension of time for the employer to hold back qualified journeyman carpenter. Use of his right hand is ex• wages that are earned and owed an employee after the employee traordinarily important. terminates the contract. When times were good, he was making good money. He Now, again I would submit that there are employers out there was working in Fort McMurray and making an extraordinarily who are not all that terribly faithful to their employees, that good income. When times were bad, he went out and, without don't feel a special relationship with their employees, and this the benefit of a contract, without the benefit of a collective will only afford them an opportunity . . . agreement, worked for a rotten employer at $3.80 an hour and was injured. The injury was such that it is going to prevent him from ever getting back into the industry that he was trained for MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Pardon me, hon. member. The Quite frankly, he hasn't got the ability to be retrained for too Chairman has had a question with regard to the CBC cameras many other positions where he can use his arm. On compensa• coming in, and we have given them approval. They want to get tion, and this, quite frankly, has nothing to do with the Act be• some shots of the committee in action. fore us -- pardon me, it does in a way. But at the compensation Hon. member. rate he gets 90 percent of the grand total of minimum wage. That's all he's entitled to. Here's a guy in his late 40s now not MR. SIGURDSON: I would submit that there are employers going to be able to work in the job that he could receive a good out there who will use this new amendment to hold back the income at because he had a rotten employer. Twelve hours a wages that, as I said, are earned and are owed to the employee. day for 50 straight days: I want you to remember it. I want you Surely to goodness, with the technology that we have in place to remember that they are out there. There are a few out there, today, it's not too difficult to punch into the computer -- for and this Act ought to go a long way in protecting those individu• those who are using computer accounting, which are many of als who happen to work for those rotten employers. It doesn't. the small businesses -- it's not too difficult to pull out the exact It doesn't go far enough. In fact, I would suggest there's no pro• amount of money owed and feed that down to the local account• vision for that kind of protection at all. ant who perhaps does the books and say: "This is the money we owe to this employee. Please ensure that the employee has that Those are my comments at this point. Thank you. money on the next pay date." Now, if we had an employee who was sick, had taken time MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Member for Edmonton-Gold off, I would hazard a guess that those hours wouldn't appear on Bar. the cheque, and there wouldn't be any problem going into the next period, that those hours wouldn't be included, his sick time MRS. HEWES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A few remarks on off. Yet he would still be paid on the same date, the traditional this Bill, some general comments. pay date, without any problem. Accountants have no problem You know, one is curious as to how this type of legislation is with that What this is going to do, I fear, is allow, as I said, written. It seems to me, as I observe what's occurred, that first those bad employers just to hold back the money that is owed. of all, you decide what it is you want to do and announce that then you take a trip, then you hold some hearings, then you Now, Mr. Chairman, why do I keep on referring back to par• write a Bill, then you leave it for some discussion, and then you ticularly rotten employers? They are few, quite rightly so; they write another Bill that's what you wanted to do all along. I are few and far between. There are not a lot of them out there, wonder, Mr. Chairman, about the exercise. I can think of no and I'm glad for that. I'm glad for the employees that have the exercise that has added to or increased the cynicism in Albertans good fortune of working for good employers. I'm pleased that 1840 ALBERTA HANSARD June 17, 1988 as much as this one has. and therefore would have the possibility of doing an endrun Mr. Chairman, to be sure, when the Bill came in again, this where unions are in place. part was separated out, and it does in fact deal with the vast ma• Mr. Chairman, termination of employment has not been jority of employees in the province of Alberta. I believe that properly dealt with in the view of -- if 50 or more employees are since the original Bill was before us, there have been some mod• to be terminated, notification must go to the minister. Then est improvements, but in my view they are not enough. I be• what? So what? One has to assume that certain things are go• lieve that when we're writing legislation of this kind, it should ing to happen, but we haven't heard what, if anything, they are. be prepared to serve us over a long period of time and require What on earth good does it do just to tell him we're going to lay only minor adjustments, and I don't believe this one is written in off 52 people unless there is transition, training, and other that fashion. mechanisms in place to deal with it. Mr, Chairman, if I can just go to some of the details that I Mr, Chairman, if I can go on to division 5, where we speak believe will require amending, the preamble in this Bill and in about overtime: now, here we have the potential for choices 22, it's companion piece, sets the tone. If there is to be a with the employer and employee. It leaves these choices open, preamble, it is put there for a purpose. It's there to set the tone and part of me agrees that there should be options, particularly of the whole Bill and to be used if in fact there is litigation. It where you have a small business with a small number of can be referred to as the philosophical basis for the details in the employees. But I think it also leaves it open to a great deal of legislation. Now, in this case, when we look at and see the first pressure from the employer, who can adjust the hours and the statement in the preamble, it says that employees to his or her own advantage. So there seems to me to it is recognized that a mutually effective relationship between be little reciprocity in this type of recommendation that might, if employees and employers is critical to the capacity of Al• there were, be fair and equitable. bertans to prosper . . . In the compressed workweek, the employer "may require" If we'd put a full stop right there, it might have been a useful his employees to work. Now, I believe the compressed statement; it might have worked as a preamble. But then we had workweek is becoming an advantage to families and to individ• to go to the lengths to add: ual citizens in Alberta and many of them choose this particular . . . in the competitive world-wide market economy of which style of work. Flextime and shared time are also becoming Alberta is a part; more available choices to people. Again, in this one, while it is Now, surely the objective of such legislation is to create a a good idea, there is no reciprocity, and control is left within the positive environment for harmony in the employer/employee hands of the employer. Of course, we all know that it is very relationship, an environment of fairness and justice. But no• dependent on how that is exercised. I think it could have im• where in this preamble do I find the recognition of the social mense advantages, but it should be determined and arrived at purpose of an environment of collaboration, fairness, and justice mutually, not required by the employer -- I take exception to between employers and employees. I find it to be deficient in that terminology -- not thrust upon the employee. that regard. Mr. Chairman, the 12-hour day, I think, can be desirable in Mr. Chairman, the response to small business concerns: I certain occupations, and there are some people who prefer to believe some of these concerns expressed to the minister and to work this. I think this once again supports new methodology, his staff during the interim period have been accommodated, new relationships between employer and employee, particularly and I applaud that move. I think they have listened. However, in small business. employees, and women in particular, seem to have been lost in I, too, am troubled by the section on the handicapped, where the shuffle. We have to remember that 90 percent of employees, the director can exempt a person from the minimum wage pay• exclusive of the public service, are covered by this Act, by em• ment. I believe the controls are not sufficient as far as how an ployment standards. Many of them are women, many work appeal can occur in regard to a handicapped person. part-time, and many of them work at minimum wage. Now, we're talking here about lower skill positions held by men and MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Members of the committee, I women. These are non-unionized positions and are covered by wonder if you could lower your voices somewhat so that we can the Bill. These standards all too often become the actual work• hear the hon. member and that Hansard can record the debate. ing conditions of those people. I believe that's what we have to concentrate on as we move through the details of the Bill and MRS. HEWES: Perhaps I should simply raise mine. attempt to make minor adjustments, which I hope the govern• Mr, Chairman, 1 would like to ask the minister, and perhaps ment will take into consideration. he can respond, if there have been discussions to any extent with The first section on communication and education: the min• handicapped groups and organizations. Of course, we are all ister leans heavily on the need for communication, and I hope aware that we now have a council. Presumably they could have that it is more than a pious hope on his part. He talks about it as advised him. But in the absence of that, there are many groups though it exists. He says that we have to have that atmosphere in our province that I think, would have been quite prepared to of fairness and that both parties have to work at it. Now, the assist in developing legislation that would not disadvantage minister has then gone ahead and written some of these require• handicapped people when we know we are simply starting up ments into the Act, and of course we have yet to see whether or our processes to assist them to find themselves in productive not they will be fulfilled. In that section, of course, we have the employment. business of advisory councils: not a unique idea, one that I Mr. Chairman, continuing on in division 6, the minimum think has some merit. But the control once again for these coun• wage has been reviewed and increased. We're grateful for that, cils rests with the minister and makes that control subject, of however small. We must recognize again that many people are course, to political interference. I don't believe that that is in struggling to live and support families on this wage, and I would the best interests of the employer or the employee. These kinds have expected that the minister would have placed in this legis• of advisory councils can even be placed where unions do exist lation a continuous review mechanism. I recognize that this June 17, 1988 ALBERTA HANSARD 1841 wage will be looked at from time to time and that employers and tinue to be exploited, either consciously or subconsciously, by employees need lead time, but it seems to me that it would be the terms of this particular Bill. I believe any Bill of this kind, immanently more satisfactory if there were a continuous mecha• which, as I mentioned before, relates to 90 percent of the em• nism placed in the Bill so that it could be looked at in relation• ployees in our province, exclusive of the public service, should ship to the cost of living, inflation, and other indicators. be so constructed that it not only creates an atmosphere of fair• In division 7, Mr. Chairman, I support the vacation being ness and justice and equity, but it also acts to protect it. increased to three weeks after five years. I think that reflects Thanks, Mr. Chairman. current practice, and I'm in agreement with that one. In division 9 I deplore no termination notice if employment MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for is under three months. While it's not exclusive to women, the Edmonton-Strathcona. three-month wonders are mainly women, and it puts women in a tremendously disadvantaged position because employers are MR. WRIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This Bill is a rea• able to simply release them, to terminate their employment. sonable Bill, but it could be made better. It is not the odious They go on UIC or back on welfare and go around again; it be• Bill that we characterize Bill 22 as being. Having said that, comes a revolving door. We've all observed it. This Act, like though, there are a number of sections that very definitely re• it's predecessor, doesn't seem to be able in any way to make a quire amendment, and there are provisions which do not fulfill positive intervention in that one. even the rather limited recommendations of the final report of Mr. Chairman, in division 10, parental benefits, we had the task force. hoped the minister would see the light here and recognize Now, one of the features which is disquieting in this Bill, changes in family life and in people's needs and in children's Mr. Chairman, is the number of exemptions that are applicable. need. Maternity is now reduced to 17 weeks. It is our belief The Employment Standards Code is supposed to be a code, and that there should be available without pay to an employee and is a code in fact, for all workers, whether unionized or not, al• the spouse 24 weeks, which could be taken by either or both though of course a union agreement will take the workers out of parents -- to a total of 24, of course -- and that this should also the operation of any of the clauses it deals with in labour stand• be available to parents adopting children. Further, in the case of ards. Therefore, it's a little hard for a worker to know where he adoption there should be no limit to only children under three or she stands if the particular provision can be exempted on the years. I think those of us who are adoptive parents know some application of the employer. of the difficulties of these circumstances, and as far as I'm con• To remind members of the extent of these exemptions, I just cerned, having had both experiences, becoming an adoptive par• need to refer to the list which we have composed by going ent is probably more difficult and does require a longer period through the Bill. Agricultural workers or people employed un• of adjustment for both parents. There is no question in my mind der the Public Service Employee Relations Act. Now, it is true that parents adopting a child over three years should have access that in the case of agricultural workers they work under substan• to an even longer period of time in order to achieve bonding tially different conditions to industrial workers, that there are with the child. emergencies at calving time, for example, or during harvest or at Mr. Chairman, I believe that section 73(a) is also deficient. times of emergency. I suppose times of emergency occur in I've spoken to this before in regard to an amendment to second every employment, so emergency is perhaps the wrong word. reading of this Bill. This section exempts part-time and tempo• Unexpected things happen, but you expect unexpected things to rary workers, and while the minister in his opening comments happen in farming and ranching. It's part of the job. So obvi• today described the difficulties in prorating benefits, I think it's ously the same standards cannot apply, but that no standards high time that we got into this century and started moving on. I apply, or almost none, under the proposed labour standards is believe that there should be vacation pay provided for temporary really quite wrong. Perhaps there should be a lower and differ• workers, that there should be termination notices, and there ent set of standards, but just to exempt them altogether is, we should be severance pay for those even under three months. I believe, wrong. think those are only dealing with the realities of today, when we have increasing numbers of part-time workers who are keeping [Mr. Gogo in the Chair] our labour force going, and this particularly applies again to women. The Public Service Employee Relations Act: well, if that In section 92, Mr. Chairman, the section on reinstatement if were itself a complete code, that would be fine, but there are the employer has breached certain sections: I'm concerned some of them who are not unionized -- I'm talking about public about this because once again the onus is on the employee to employees now -- and therefore do not have a collective agree• take action in this regard, and for reinstatement the employee, of ment They don't have a code, then, to resort to, and it is not course, must again apply. I believe that is not what I would con• always the choice of the employee not to have a union agree• sider legislation that is fair or equitable to the employee who has ment So that is a major problem, Mr. Chairman. been improperly terminated or where the employer has breached Another provision which one would have thought to be certain sections of this Act. pretty basic can also be excepted upon the application of the The deemed trust, Mr. Chairman, I believe to be okay. Sec• employer; namely, the four-week notice required to the minister tion 94(4), however, provides for no further appeal, and I think for an employer planning to lay off 50 employees or more. that one should be looked at again. Now, on the face of it, that is a pretty progressive piece of legis• Mr. Chairman, just in summarizing, what I would have lation, yet it can be exempted upon the application of the hoped for is a Bill that would have produced more of an atmos• employer. phere of fairness and justice, not only for small businesspeople The employer may be exempted from a requirement to keep but for all non-unionized workers and particularly for the work• employment records at the place of business under section 17. ing poor and minorities in our society, who could easily con• Now, I suppose in all these cases, Mr. Chairman, circumstances 1842 ALBERTA HANSARD June 17, 1988 can be thought up that might make it reasonable to grant the ex• pay provisions from those in the Act. Again this is ruled by the emption, but the uncertainty that the possibility instills in the length of one's elbow instead of by certain rules. Cabinet can whole Act is not such that it can be justified by the odd excep• make regulations setting out different provisions for general tional case. As the saying goes: hard cases make bad law. holidays and general holiday pay. Perhaps that one is one with That's to say, if you make your law according to the hard cases, more sense to it. then you have a too flexible standard in most areas of legisla• So in dealing with the Act in general, we have to say that it is tion, and this is certainly one of those areas. too full of the rights to exemption to be acceptable as being An employer cannot require his employees to work past 8 first-class legislation. hours in a day without overtime pay unless he can gain from In the definition sections one notes some sloppiness, as I them an agreement to take time off in lieu. That permission, would characterize it, of some of the definitions or absence of Mr. Chairman, is easily got simply by making it a condition of them. In section (l)(c) there is no definition of a dependent con• employment. I suppose you can say that if the worker doesn't tractor, which is an important concept in the Act, but that's very like that as a condition of employment, he or she doesn't have to detailed, and I think we'll be coming to that later by way of an take the job, but the bargaining positions of the employer and amendment, Mr. Chairman. employee, particularly nowadays, are quite unequal, particularly On the amendment, which is also before discussion, Mr. the unorganized ones, which is what this Bill applies to. Chairman, I do have a subamendment of a commonsensical na• The requirement that hours of work be confined within 12 ture. If hon. members want to look at the amendment that has hours in any day: even that can be waived by a director's order been put before us, they will see that it deals with the delegation or regulation. Again, there might be very exceptional types of of powers of the minister. There are some points to be made employment where this might be reasonable, but I'd just remind about that. hon. members of one consideration alone, which is that the I'm getting a dirty look from the acting House leader, so per• number of industrial accidents rises through the working day, on haps I can move that we adjourn consideration of this Bill in the average, on a pretty straight graph. So you're asking for committee. sloppiness, not only from the danger point of view but from the point of view of the quality of the work done, if a worker has to MR. YOUNG: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee rise work in excess of 12 hours in one day. and report progress and beg leave to sit again. The requirement that an employee be granted a half hour rest period for a shift of five hours or more doesn't apply if such a [Motion carried] break would be unreasonable . . . [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] MS BARRETT: Paid or unpaid. MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has had MR. WRIGHT: Right. . . . or the director issues a permit or a under consideration and reports progress on Bill 21. regulation is made exempting the employer from providing it; that's section 30. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Assembly concur in the report? Cabinet can make regulations setting hours of work and overtime provisions different from those in the Act. That's re• HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. ally like saying, "Well, this is what the Act says, but if you want it changed, just get cabinet to pass an order." It's most peculiar MR. SPEAKER: Opposed? So ordered. legislation. It's quite different from the Canada labour code standards, Mr. Chairman. [At 12:59 p.m. the House adjourned to Monday at 2:30 p.m.] Cabinet can make regulations setting out different vacation