Fifh Session, 41st Parliament

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD)

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY, SECTION A

Virtual Meeting Friday, July 17, 2020 Morning Meeting Issue No. 11

Presiding Ofcers:

RAJ CHOUHAN, DEPUTY SPEAKER

SPENCER CHANDRA HERBERT, DEPUTY CHAIR, COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

ISSN 2563-3511 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

Fifth Session, 41st Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Health ...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Economic Development and Competitiveness...... Hon. Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... , QC Leader of the Tird Party ...... Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Simon Gibson Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel...... Seunghee Suzie Seo Clerk Assistant, Parliamentary Services...... Artour Sogomonian Clerk Assistant, Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Senior Research Analyst...... Jennifer Arril Senior Research Analyst...... Karan Riarh Acting Sergeant-at-Arms...... Greg Nelson ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Abbotsford-Mission...... Simon Gibson Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford South...... Hon. Darryl Plecas Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Abbotsford West...... Michael de Jong, QC Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Begg, Garry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Guildford Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Hon. Anne Kang Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Burnaby North ...... Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Surrey South Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Donna Barnett Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... –West End Cariboo North...... Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Chilliwack ...... John Martin Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack-Kent ...... Laurie Troness Chow, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Joan Isaacs Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Langley East Coquitlam-Maillardville ...... Hon. Selina Robinson Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Courtenay-Comox...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Delta North...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Delta South ...... Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Esquimalt-Metchosin ...... D’Eith, Bob (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola ...... Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Tompson ...... Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Tompson...... Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission ...... Steve Tomson Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kelowna West ...... Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay East...... Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kootenay West...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Langford–Juan de Fuca ...... Hon. John Horgan Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Langley ...... Mary Polak Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Langley East...... Glumac, Rick (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Mission...... Bob D’Eith Heyman, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Hon. Lisa Beare Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca Mid Island–Pacifc Rim...... Hon. Scott Fraser Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Nanaimo...... Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Nechako Lakes...... Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Queensborough Nelson-Creston ...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)...... Delta North New Westminster...... Hon. Judy Darcy Kang, Hon. Anne (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Coast ...... Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Island...... Hon. Claire Trevena Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Tornthwaite Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ...... Courtenay-Comox Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Parksville-Qualicum...... Michelle Stilwell Ma, Bowinn (NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Peace River North ...... Malcolmson, Sheila (NDP) ...... Nanaimo Peace River South ...... Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Penticton ...... Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Tompson Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie...... Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount ...... Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands Richmond North Centre...... Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)...... Delta South Richmond-Queensborough...... Jas Johal Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South Richmond South Centre ...... Linda Reid Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston ...... John Yap Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Saanich North and the Islands ...... Adam Olsen Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South ...... Hon. Lana Popham Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Shuswap...... Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond South Centre Skeena...... Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Stikine...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Marvin Hunt Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)...... Skeena Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Routledge, Janet (NDP)...... Burnaby North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Guildford...... Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Surrey-Panorama ...... Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey South ...... Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley ...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sims, Jinny (NDP)...... Surrey-Panorama Surrey–White Rock ...... Tracy Redies Singh, Rachna (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. George Heyman Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–False Creek...... Sam Sullivan Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. George Chow Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver-Hastings ...... Hon. Shane Simpson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Kensington...... Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kingsway...... Hon. Adrian Dix Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Langara...... Michael Lee Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Hon. Melanie Mark Tomson, Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Hon. David Eby, QC Tornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Quilchena...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Troness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Hon. Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky......

Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; Independent 2; BC Green Party 2

CONTENTS

Friday, July 17, 2020 Morning Meeting Page

Committee of Supply

Proceedings in Section A ...... 191 Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture (continued) I. Paton Hon. L. Popham Estimates: Ministry of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation Hon. S. Fraser D. Ashton J. Rustad E. Ross

191

FRIDAY, JULY 17, 2020 Hon. L. Popham: Tanks for the question. Tis topic is very important to me and has been for a very long time. Te committee met at 9:35 a.m. One of the main pieces of art I decorate my ofce with is an abattoir map of British Columbia. It’s also been some- [S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.] thing that I know has needed some change for as long as I’ve been an MLA. Committee of Supply Tere were changes to the way we slaughtered meat brought in, in 2008, and since then, there has been a con- Proceedings in Section A stant conversation from small-scale producers around the way that those changes back then really afected the capa- ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE city that we have for small-scale slaughter and just the way (continued) we generally deal with meat slaughter in British Columbia. When the Select Standing Committee on Agriculture, On Vote 13: ministry operations, $77,261,000 Fish and Food was reinstated afer a very long time of not (continued). being part of the Legislature, one of the frst tasks was to send a team out to investigate provincial meat production. I. Paton: Good morning. I know we don’t have a lot of I’d like to thank the critic for the time that he spent on time this morning, but I just want to catch up on a few last- that committee. It’s a critically important committee to the minute things. Legislature and to British Columbia. I think the one thing that this pandemic has proved to Te report that came back was fantastic. Te work that us in agriculture, especially here in British Columbia, is was done was excellent. Te report made 21 recommend- the lack of locally grown food: vegetables and, especially, ations for government. Eight of those recommendations meat — poultry, beef, pork, etc. Having travelled around were about abattoir licensing and oversight, three of those this province, I’ve realized that our livestock numbers are recommendations were about skilled labour and work- shrinking. All you need to do is fy over this province and force, and ten of the recommendations were about look down at small farms everywhere in B.C., and the live- industry growth and development. On June 3, 2019, our stock are gone. Tey used to be there, but there’s no live- ministry formally accepted all the recommendations. stock inside the fences anymore. [9:45 a.m.] What we’ve shown is that 4,000 head of cattle a day Te progress to date on the recommendations in- being killed at a plant in — or two or three plants cludes reduced travel time, policy associated with class E in Alberta and across Canada — is a little bit susceptible. licence applications, no-cost training for class D and We saw that when positive tests started to break out. E licences, consultation with operators and local gov- Employees are elbow-to-elbow in these plants. We’re not ernment on class D administration, slaughter capacity sure where the livestock came from, but they’re going study to provide a baseline for future reviews of meat through these plants at 4,000 head a day, with 2,000 work- inspection programs, Buy B.C. promotion of local meat ers in a plant such as JBS or Cargill. products, local meat production promoted through agri- What we’re seeing is that people in British Columbia cultural fairs and 4-H funding, funding research to want to be able to buy beef, pork and poultry from their investigate alternative inspection methods, and farmers’ neighbour down the road, neighbour Joe. Tey know he’s concerns about disaster relief conveyed to emergency been humanely raising his steers and his cows and his management British Columbia. heifers. Tat’s what I think people really want to purchase: We have also brought in three new regions that were locally grown produce and protein that is locally grown in designated on June 10, 2020: Alberni-Clayoquot regional B.C. by their neighbour down the road. I think we need far district, area H in the regional district of Fraser–Fort more licences to go out for B licences and D and E licences, George and area D in the regional district of the Central as we’ve talked about. Kootenays. Tese regions are now able to have class D I was on the committee that travelled around B.C. in licences. 2018 about the industry for abattoirs and slaughterhouses. I can say that for the Alberni-Clayoquot district, 11 My question to the minister: can the minister tell the applications have already been received since that change House what work has been completed on the recommend- on June 10, 2020. ations outlined in the Select Standing Committee on Agri- culture report on abattoirs? Can she identify which of the I. Paton: Tank you for that answer. 21 recommendations have been completed, which of the If I had to look at the top three things that farmers 21 are currently in progress and which are yet to be star- and ranchers in B.C. are extremely concerned about — ted? we talked about it yesterday — it’s secondary homes, third [9:40 a.m.] homes on farms. Te second would be value-added, and meat is a big part of that. 192 Committee of Supply, Section A Friday, July 17, 2020

If you can do slaughter and butcher of good-quality loc- to be a need for more inspection as we see these applic- ally grown beef of small-scale here in British Columbia ations come in, is we’re investigating all ways that that and set up a little roadside stand with your vegetables could be done. that you’ve grown and a freezer cooler with the meat that One of the things that’s quite interesting is looking at you’ve packaged, that’s what we need to see in British Col- an alternative approach to traditional inspection, so using umbia on big farms and on small-scale farms as well. technology to do those inspections. We see in human Te important thing to me is that we get more A, D and health there is a capacity to use cellphones to verify disease E licences out there in B.C. so that everybody can start in communities that don’t have a doctor available. Tat’s raising livestock again. Te bottom line is this. If you’re something that can be possibly incorporated into our a farmer, you can grow all the Brussels sprouts and pota- inspection services here. Tere could be more virtual dis- toes and whatever in the world, but if you don’t have a ease verifcation that’s done. So there are a lot of diferent processing plant nearby to sell that product to, nobody is approaches that we can take now. Technology has really going to grow it. increased around health and safety. Te same with beef and poultry. If you don’t have an Tere are things that we’re looking at like that. But also, abattoir or a butcher nearby, why would you bother getting to address the larger capacity issue, the member’s quite into the production of some beef cattle or chickens or tur- right. A lot of our cattle move to Alberta for fnishing and keys or hogs or whatever? So we need to get more licences for slaughter. out in B.C. [9:55 a.m.] Te important thing — and this is what we found on We’ve been working, over the last three years, with the our travels with the committee we’re on — is there’s a great B.C. Cattlemen’s Association to try and fgure out a larger lack of B.C. Ministry of Ag inspectors. Te only inspect- way to address larger-scale slaughter in . And ors that are checking on D and E licences are the Ministry I’d say that we’re getting pretty close to being able to see of Health inspectors. We asked people: “When was the last something new happen. It will ofer larger-scale capacity time you saw a Ministry of Health inspector that came to for beef, red meat slaughter. But it’s also going to give us check your stainless steel tables and your knives to see if the capacity to be able to market our own domestic meat things are clean?” “We haven’t seen a guy in a year, maybe within our province as raised and slaughtered here fully. a year and a half.” Tere are many interested parties that we know of that Te most important thing is that if we’re going to sell are interested in that capacity being grown, including large locally grown protein here in B.C., we need to have more restaurant chains. So we’re also, as the critic knows, trying hired inspectors through the province that will go and do to move more grown and processed product through our random checks on D and E licences. We need more of hospital systems, and ground beef is one of the things that them, but they need to be randomly checked, for the safety is very much used in our hospital system. Te member has of people in B.C., by provincial inspectors. been in the dairy industry, and he’ll know that at the end of Could you comment on that, please? a dairy cow’s life, it ofen goes into the slaughter and into [9:50 a.m.] the hamburger market. So this increased capacity will also, probably, be able to help the dairy industry. Hon. L. Popham: Tanks, again, to the critic for the question. I. Paton: Tank you to the minister. I think the exciting, good news is that since the new One more quick question about the abattoir situation. I regions were brought on, we have seen a furry of activity. wanted to clarify that for inspectors for B licences, which Even since January, we’ve seen a furry of activity around are provincial inspectors that actually sit for seven or eight applications. And that’s good news because it means more hours a day at the facility to see that it’s humanely people are interested in being part of meat production in slaughtered, etc., and humanely trucked to the facility…. British Columbia. So as the critic mentioned, people do I’m not suggesting for Ds and Es that we need a person like being able to access meat locally — maybe from their there eight hours a day, fve days a week. I’m simply sug- neighbour, maybe from their hometown. gesting that a provincial inspector could be a pop-in Te critic brings up a good point. Having more applic- inspection, just like we used to have on dairy farms with ations and more livestock being raised doesn’t address barn inspectors. You didn’t know exactly when they were the capacity that we have for slaughter. I think, as we get coming, but they would pop in just to make sure that more animal production coming online, it will make the you’re on your toes and you’re doing things in a humane business case for more slaughter facilities to come online way and in a cleanly way. as well. My last little question is the Fraser Valley. We speak Around the inspection, the inspection takes place for mostly about this large province of ours, rural areas where the Ds and Es through the Ministry of Health, the health people want more opportunities for D and E licences for authorities. It’s not through Agriculture. But what we slaughter and butcher. But right in the Fraser Valley, we have been doing, because we know that there is going have people who — Minister, you know how many hobby Friday, July 17, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 193 farms that are out there that got split up in the ’60s and To the minister, could she please tell us her opinion ’70s that, unfortunately, are only fve acres — want to raise of where things are going with this recommendation 4? I a few beef cows or some sheep or some poultry. mean, it’s certainly been dissed by every article that I’ve Te worst part of the whole abattoir situation is, actu- seen since it came out. What is your comment on using ally, the Fraser Valley. Tere are a few big boys out there. ALR land for industrial uses? Tey don’t even really want to do custom kill for small operators. So I have people coming to me in Langley, Sur- Hon. L. Popham: Tanks, again, for the question. I rey, Delta and Abbotsford going: “Can we get some D and think we know that as our demands evolve over the next E licences right in the Fraser Valley?” Even though they’re decades, the demand that we are going to see for food is rather close to some of the big boys, we need to have…. increasing. Tat’s a global situation. We also have a prob- Is there a possibility of more D and E licences, actually, lem, globally, with food waste. Tat’s becoming quite top in the Fraser Valley? of mind for many people. Te Food Security Task Force brought in recommenda- Hon. L. Popham: Tere are class E licences available tions that deal with a lot of pressing issues that we’re see- for the Fraser Valley. If someone who has a class E license ing for agriculture worldwide, really. Tey brought for- fnds that they’re unable to get the space at a larger ward examples of how this is being addressed in other jur- slaughter facility, that can trigger a feasibility study from isdictions. I would like to thank the Food Security Task our ministry to see if there needs to be more slaughter Force, that was led by Peter Dhillon and members Arvind capacity put in. Gupta and Lenore Newman, for the work they put in on [10:00 a.m.] this report. Tere are a lot of things that can be addressed. If the member does have a farmer that he knows that [10:05 a.m.] would like to apply for a class E or has a class E and can’t Of course, like any report, it’s presented to us, and then fnd the slaughter capacity, just get in touch with us, and we need to do the work to try and fnd out which recom- we can do a feasibility study. mendations we would like to work on, which should be implemented. But there’s a lot of good work in this report. I. Paton: I’d like to move on to Te Future of B.C.’s Food As far as any land use changes, this is something that System. Te Food Security Task Force put it together. First Deputy Wes Shoemaker is going out to investigate. Of of all, I do want to say that I do compliment Mr. Dhillon course, that’s a complicated situation. Tere are a lot of and Mr. Gupta and Ms. Newman, who were charged to competing pressures on agricultural land and reserve land. go out and to do this report. However, if we go to recom- We know that it was put in place for future generations mendation 4 in the report on the use of agricultural land specifcally for food security, and we’re very protective of in British Columbia for agri-industrial uses, it’s probably that land. So Deputy Shoemaker’s job is to go out and see: not the best choice of wording. what exactly are the needs of agritech? What is agritech, I would like to read out some headlines from many farm and what are the needs of farmers around agritech? publications in B.C. I’d start with Country Life in B.C. Tis I think the critic said himself: “Recently B.C.’s new Food is regarding this report and recommendation 4. “Farm- Security Task Force recommended a certain amount of land Advocates Pan Agritech Plans.” “Using the ALR for ALR land be set aside specifcally for agricultural industri- Industry Is No Route to Food Security.” al use. Tis will be critical if B.C. is to bolster our packing Te next one, Western Investor Magazine: “B.C.’s Food and processing industries, as well as to provide local cold Security Task Force Report Draws Disbelief and Gufaws.” storage facilities to help to keep produce fresh, retain its “Pandemic Brings Food Security Issue to the Forefront.” value and increase its shelf life.” CBC: “B.C. Food Security Report Sparks Debate on I think the member himself acknowledges that we do Technology and Agricultural Land Reserve: Experts, need to look at diferent avenues to produce food, but Municipal Leaders Say Converting Any Part of the Land whether or not that lands on the ALR is really to be invest- Reserve Will Fuel Speculation and Raise Costs.” igated. Tose consultations are being done now. Deputy Ten, fnally, the Alaska Highway News. Te headline Shoemaker’s job is also to make sure he’s working closely says: “Peace River Regional District Rips up the B.C. Food with the Agricultural Land Commission and to take a look Task Force Report.” at land use. Ten we go on to a quote here. I think — I hope — the Tere are possibilities that are showing themselves, minister knows about this letter that was written. It was especially out in Abbotsford with a company that wants to written to Premier Horgan, and it came from 23 advoc- set up an agritech park. It’s outside the Agricultural Land ates of agriculture that are very well known in British Col- Reserve. We really need to have an inventory of what land umbia, including Richard Bullock, the past chair of the is available, what agritech needs and what British Colum- land commission; Joan Sawicki — I’m sure you all know bia wants to be involved with, with agritech. Joan Sawicki; and Kent Mullinix, the head agriculturist for But make no mistake. Agritech is happening all around KPU. us right now. Farmers are using agritech in British Colum- 194 Committee of Supply, Section A Friday, July 17, 2020 bia, and we need to know what role it has here. We see that I. Paton: Tank you, Minister, and thank you, Mr. small-, medium- and large-scale farmers, fshers and food Chair. Do we have time for one more question, or a couple processors are using agritech that’s available to them now, more questions? but what do they need? Tat’s what we’re going to fnd out. Te Chair: Te time is yours, Member, as members I. Paton: Tank you, Minister, for that answer. Just fur- want to use it. Please proceed, Member for Delta South, ther, I would like to know what the total cost of this Food unless I’m told otherwise. Security Task Force report was. Minister of Agriculture. I’d like to let the minister know that we already have eight institutions in B.C. that are doing post-secondary Hon. L. Popham: I just wanted to let the member know agriculture. I’m sure they are all desperate for funding. I that I’ve got all summer. can tell the minister that, as a farmer, there is technology coming our way every day. All you have to do is to look I. Paton: Tere are some interesting things going on at salesmen. Tat may sound funny, but the salesmen for with technology right now in British Columbia, and it’s everything you can think of — whether it’s semen, genom- just quite amazing. Years ago a tractor salesman was just ics, robotics, GPS for your tractors or autonomous-driven a guy that used to farm who wanted something diferent tractors — are all over. All this is coming from the uni- to do, so he’d go out and sell tractors. But now you almost versities — Cal Poly, Nebraska, Iowa — and it’s coming have to have an engineering degree in technology to be a from Israel and Germany. salesman for farm equipment, because it is so complicated Tose are the leaders in agriculture technology. So I’m with the electronics, the GPS, the robotics and all the dif- just not sure if we need to spend in the millions of dollars ferent things. to compete with all these universities and countries. Even [10:15 a.m.] Guelph University — that’s our leading agritech and In my dairy farming days, of course, we were trying innovation university in Canada. to raise the most prized genetic dairy cattle, and nobody I would like to know what the cost is to do this report — wanted bull calves. Now semen is being sexed, so before the task force — and what the cost would be for putting up you purchase it, you know that you’re going to get heifer the innovation and technology centre in the Fraser Valley calves rather than bull calves, which nobody really wanted. that you speak of. Yeah, there’s so much technology out there, but it is defn- [10:10 a.m.] itely out there already throughout British Columbia. One of my fnal questions is about water in British Col- Hon. L. Popham: Te Food Security Task Force had a umbia. Of course, it’s a huge issue, especially as our sum- budget of $150,000, which was for travel, project manage- mers get hotter and our streams and creeks and rivers tend ment support and other administrative expenses. to go down at certain times of the year. Farmers and ranch- Ten, to the member’s comments about which academic ers are very concerned about signing up for the licences institutions are doing what and the potential to have for groundwater and for wells. One of the things that they agritech hubs around academic institutions, part of the were very concerned about, which was a bit surprising to task that Deputy Shoemaker is undertaking is to have them, was the cost of fow meters being installed. those conversations with academic institutions and private In Delta, we decided, when I was on council, that we business to see what the partnerships are that can be made. were going to put… Almost every new application would Te University of the Fraser Valley will be on that list, go on a water meter. Te water meter would be dug into defnitely. But there are also other academic institutions the ground in the front lawn with the meter on it, and that that are entrusted around…. In the viticulture sector, we’ve would be checked for fow and the usage of water. But the got academic institutions in the Okanagan region that are customer did not have to pay for that. Te municipality of looking at being entrusted in using technology to more Delta paid for the water meter, the fow meter. sustainably manage vineyards. Tere are a lot of examples. Tese farmers and ranchers are rather upset. To the One of the examples that the task force brought up minister: could you explain why the cost of a fow meter was an example from the Netherlands, where there is a with installation and labour could be up around $5,000 on good partnership between government, private business groundwater wells in the province? and academia, where they create these agritech hubs, and agritech can be developed there. You also see spinofs of Hon. L. Popham: I think I need a bit of clarifcation food being grown in those same areas. from the member. I’m not sure if the member is referring Agritech is here. Te member is right. It’s all around us. to a requirement from local government or a regional So we need to position ourselves as a province to be able to board requirement. Maybe he can clarify that. I may need support that but also to take advantage of the opportunit- to get back to the member on this answer, but I’ll give it ies where we can be a player worldwide. another shot if he clarifes. Friday, July 17, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 195

I. Paton: Tank you, Minister. I’ve been getting quite a [10:25 a.m.] few letters. Perhaps I haven’t noticed exactly where they’re referring to, but I’m suggesting that through the water reg- Hon. L. Popham: Tanks for the question. It’s one of ulations and licensing through the ministry, farmers and my favourite topics. I’m sorry. I’ll try not to ramble on too ranchers are being told that if they have a well, they’re much, but there’s a lot of exciting stuf that’s happening. going to have to install a fow meter so that they can come When we frst decided to start working on the Feed B.C. and check and see how much water is being used each policy, there were a lot of barriers in place. One of them month. Tey’re being billed to do this. Te cost is $4,000 was that we didn’t know a lot of information. So we had to to $5,000. Perhaps you could check into that. kind of start at the bottom and work with health author- Another water question would be that ranchers are ities and with suppliers and distributors, like the member somewhat upset that they’re being told that, at certain mentioned — Sysco, Gordon Food, all of the companies times of the year at the end of summer, they may be that supply into the health system now. restricted on use of water for drinking water for livestock. What we found is that there’s a great desire by every- Tat would be like the worst thing a rancher could ever body that’s involved to start supporting a more local food hear. system. Tose conversations hadn’t happened before. I could see cutting back water use for irrigating crops. What we also learned from those discussions is that Tey’re not too happy about that, by the way, especially nobody really understood the types of products that could over the Koksilah on Vancouver Island. Tey want to be be supplied by our own B.C. growers and processors able to irrigate their third crop and their fourth crop, already. Perhaps they were never engaged into the system. which goes into late August and September. Tat’s another Perhaps they had products that nobody knew about. story. We have been having continual discussions, bringing in But very upset if the Ministry of Agriculture or FLNRO farmers, bringing in health authorities, bringing in nutri- was to one day say: “You have to cut of that well. You tionists and dietitians and working with our ministry and can’t water your cattle anymore.”Cattle have to drink water with the Ministry of Health. It has been a massive efort 24-7, all year round. just to make sure that we’ve got all of the baselines and Could you comment on that, please? then start to investigate how you bring small-, medium- [10:20 a.m.] and large-scale producers and processors into the equation as well. Tat’s very important. Hon. L. Popham: It’s a great issue that the member has We started of thinking that we would work with health brought up. We are currently working with B.C. cattle- authorities to move food into the hospital system. We had men and dairy and with the Ministry of Environment and the vision of working with them so we can get more into FLNRORD around the need for certainty for livestock in a extended care, long-term care and retirement facilities. We drought situation. So it’s a live issue. I will probably be able also started to realize that post-secondary was extremely to have more updates in the next little while. I can defn- well suited to start bringing in more B.C. products. Tat’s itely keep the member apprised. because they have a little bit more fexibility on what they can buy compared to a health authority. Troughout all of I. Paton: Tank you, Minister. Last summer I think we that…. almost bumped into each other at a trade show on Van- [10:30 a.m.] couver Island for agriculture. I spent, actually, two days We did start by bringing Interior Health in as a partner. going to some of the seminars, which were quite interest- Tey brought in vegetables from a greenhouse operator ing, about Feed B.C., where some of your ministry staf right in that area. Tat greenhouse operator has expanded were talking to the audience about getting B.C. food his facility just to supply the Penticton hospital. products into our hospitals and our institutions. Penticton Hospital has switched to B.C. eggs, which was When I came away from it, it seemed like not a whole something that I hadn’t really considered at the beginning, lot was happening. Tey were realizing that there are some that supply management could be afected by this. But they pretty big walls to get past, when you consider…. Sysco buy 600,000 shelled eggs a year, and they weren’t necessar- and Gordon Food Service, companies like that, are huge ily buying from B.C. But the egg producers of B.C. contac- companies that have contracts with our institutions, our ted us and said: “Now that we’ve switched, we’ve noticed hospitals, our prisons, to supply on a basis of 365 days a big diference.” So Feed B.C. also applies to supply man- a year, and they likely source their food products from agement. where they can get them all year-round. All in all, we are now at the point where we’re going My question is: how is your Feed B.C. program moving to…. Well, I don’t really want to scoop myself on estimates, forward into our institutions? How many B.C. products, but we will be announcing other health authorities that right now, are moving into our hospitals, in the way of we have now brought on as partners — Northern Health, poultry, meat, pork, apples, cherries, all of the diferent Coastal Health. All of the health authorities are, basically, things that you have spoken about? ready to come on as partners. 196 Committee of Supply, Section A Friday, July 17, 2020

What that means is that they’re keeping track of what written response, if we could, please. I’m going to bring they buy, letting us know what’s Buy B.C. and then invest- this up from yesterday. igating with suppliers and processors and farmers what It’s my private members’ bill, M221, 2019. Tis is very, the top items are that these facilities use. Tey use a lot very important for agriculture in all of B.C. but especially of frozen berries, which is great, because as the member for the people of Delta South. I’ll read from a letter of knows, we grow a ton of berries. Tey do breaded fsh. Mayor George Harvey of Delta. “Te intent of Bill M221 Yogurt is a really…. Tey use a lot of yogurt. Frozen soups. is to require that the Brunswick Point properties are kept Chicken. Of course, I mentioned ground beef earlier. as Crown land and leased to either the original farm fam- Tere’s a ton of products that can be brought on, and ilies or other local farmers for a minimum lease term of some are already being used. We’ll be encouraging them 20 years. Despite the current restrictions on the land use, over the next year to start increasing their purchases of Delta is concerned that Brunswick Point lands could be B.C. products. We had a notional 30 percent goal, but we sold to speculators with no interest in farming and plans are there. So I think we’re going to easily be able to sur- for future non-agricultural development.” pass that. [10:35 a.m.] I know I’m probably going too long, but I just want As I said yesterday, Brunswick Point is absolute class 1, to give the member one example of what changes when 2 and 3 farmland. It was expropriated in the ’70s and nev- a conversation like that happens. I think he’s going to be er sold back to the farming families. Tere are fve farming pretty interested. families that are still on a lease, year to year, with the pro- One of the things that hospitals will use is precooked vincial government. chicken, and the precooked chicken that is being pro- It’s right next door, and I hope the minister will take a cessed in British Columbia has a certain sodium content drive out sometime. You could not imagine the size of the in it. Well, in a hospital, sodium is one of those things that warehouses that have gone up next door with the econom- you really have to watch. So a conversation is happening ic development program of TFN. between our chicken processors and the health authorities I would like, in writing, from the minister, if she would to see if they can create that product with low sodium so agree to bring forward Bill M221 for debate in the House that it could be moved into the hospital system as well. — that we protect the Brunswick Point lands in Delta, not It’s just little conversations like that — even, like, the only for agriculture in perpetuity but for the well-being of size of the yogurt containers. It needs to be unsweetened all of the migratory birds that make use of that piece of in the hospital system. We didn’t have that happening property in their annual migration. here in B.C. Tere are so many business opportunities that come Hon. L. Popham: I will look forward to the member’s with it. Tat’s why I think it’s exciting. Not only does it letter. help our primary producers; it helps our processors. I think it’s a positive step for our economy and the agri- I. Paton: Tank you to the minister for a congenial 6½ cultural community. hours, and thank you to your staf. I was hoping I could Tank you. Sorry if that I was a bit too long. meet your staf, but they’re, obviously, of in the back- ground. Hopefully, one day I get a chance to meet some of I. Paton: Tank you to the minister. I’ll just make a your new staf. Tank you for your time, and thank you to quick statement and then one more question I’d like to Mr. Chair and the Clerks. read into the record. It doesn’t need to be answered here. I just want to say that the Feed B.C. program is, defn- Te Chair: Seeing no further questions, we will be vot- itely, a great idea. I know that it must have all sorts of chal- ing to complete the estimates. lenges because farmers cannot just go knock on the door Any closing comments, Minister? of a prison or a hospital or a school and say: “Hey, would you like to buy my potatoes?” Everything has to have gone Hon. L. Popham: Well, I would like to thank the critic through a processing plant. for his great questions. I’ve also enjoyed the 6½ hours, I have heard on good authority that, unfortunately…. and I’d like to ofer a thank-you to his colleagues that also You claim this is Feed B.C. and we’re getting this stuf joined us. I’d, of course, like to thank my staf for being an in. But unless I stand to be corrected, you can bring amazing support system for me. in agricultural products from California, Washington State, Oregon and Mexico, and as long as they’re pro- Vote 13: ministry operations, $77,261,000 — approved. cessed and packaged in B.C., they can be included as a Feed B.C. item that claims to be a B.C. product. I could Vote 14: Agricultural Land Commission, $4,943,000 — be corrected on that. approved. Te fnal thing I’d like to write in, and I would like a Te Chair: Tank you, everybody. We are fnished the Friday, July 17, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 197

Ministry of Agriculture, and we’re going to go for about a pandemic is our top priority, and our commitment to ten-minute recess to prepare for the next set of estimates. reconciliation is stronger than ever. Tis has been evident in how we have worked with on the COVID Te committee recessed from 10:38 a.m. to 10:53 a.m. response. Te level of coordination and engagement between nations and government in responding to the [S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.] pandemic has been extraordinary, though, of course, it’s not always perfect. We always have more to learn. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF INDIGENOUS First Nations communities have been devastated by past RELATIONS AND RECONCILIATION pandemics. Smallpox, tuberculosis, scarlet fever, infuenza and measles — entire communities devastated by the On Vote 32: ministry operations, $47,124,000. deaths of thousands of Indigenous People in British Col- umbia and across Canada. Tat history remains fresh in Te Chair: Any opening remarks, Minister? the minds of Indigenous Peoples. First Nations and Indi- genous leaders have worked very hard to keep their com- Hon. S. Fraser: Yes, I do. It’s my pleasure to speak to munities and, especially, their Elders safe from COVID-19 Budget 2020 today. — and very successfully, according to recent data from the First, I’d like to point out that the way we are gathered First Nations Health Authority. today to do this work of government is extraordinary, Te First Nations Health Authority has been leading our which would be an understatement. I thank the many staf efort to support First Nations in this work, which has been from the Legislature and elsewhere in government who a key priority across government agencies. Te Ministry have made it possible for us to have a virtual legislative sit- of Health, the First Nations Health Authority, emergency ting during the pandemic to do this important business in management B.C., my ministry and Indigenous Services ways we would not have even thought possible. I would Canada have all worked very closely together with First just acknowledge that I am not technologically very adept, Nations and Indigenous organizations, sharing informa- so I am totally amazed by this in so many ways. tion and supporting communities with planning, supplies [10:55 a.m.] and, of course, food security. We’re here on the territory of the Lək̓ ʷəŋin̓ əŋ-speaking We also developed a new framework that will ensure people, the Songhees and Esquimalt Nations. I feel so health care needs are better met in remote and Indigenous blessed to get to do our work here on this beautiful land. communities. We are also working together to make it Joining us today from our ministry, I have staf, includ- through this all safely, and we will continue to do that, ing Deputy Minister Doug Caul and Assistant Deputy because we are stronger for working together. Our govern- Minister Wes Boyd. Jennifer Melles is also here, assistant ment believes that by working together, we can build a bet- deputy minister — and Assistant Deputy Minister Jessica ter, more secure future for everyone. Wood, Assistant Deputy Minister Trish Balcaen and In the past three years, we’ve been working to bring tan- Deputy Minister Suzanne Christensen. I am also grateful gible benefts to British Columbians that make life bet- to have Tracey Herbert, CEO of the First Peoples Cultural ter: safe, afordable homes for people who need them, fair Council, here supporting us. wages, afordable child care, public services that people Tis is my frst estimates debate, from either side of the can depend on, investment in education, health care, safe House, outside of the House. Of course, that is because we communities, a more inclusive province and, very import- are in the midst of a challenge that has tested us in so many antly, a strong, sustainable economy. ways. But it’s a challenge that has also brought us together. In my role as Minister of Indigenous Relations and As we are doing here today, we have had to rely on tech- Reconciliation, I see this as important groundwork that nology and innovation in these unusual times. Tis has contributes to advancing reconciliation with Indigenous allowed us to continue the important work of our ministry Peoples, because there is work to be done on reconciliation and of government with Indigenous partners. in every sector and aspect of society. Of course, that is why Last month Premier Horgan and I met on Zoom with all every ministry has this in its mandate and every minister of the leaders from the modern treaty alliance nations. We has this in his mandate. came together, as a group, for the frst time to discuss mat- [11:00 a.m.] ters that are important to all of us. We have done virtual During the past three years, we’ve reached some really town halls with First Nations and Indigenous leaders and signifcant milestones on our shared journey with the organizations. We have conducted negotiations and even Indigenous Peoples. Historic legislation to implement the signed an agreement on Zoom. UN declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples, and Despite these unprecedented times, the vital work of that’s a frst, of course. Sharing provincial gaming revenues government is still getting done. In fact, the global pan- — well, that’s a frst for British Columbia. demic…. Te health safety of British Columbians in this Agreements with nations that are making life better for communities throughout British Columbia. Investments 198 Committee of Supply, Section A Friday, July 17, 2020 in language revitalization and Indigenous housing of and want to acknowledge that this work started under the pre- on reserve — again, a frst. K-to-12 curriculum updates vious government, setting the foundation for the success to include Indigenous culture and history in all grades — story we are now building with the Carrier-Sekani people again, a frst. Amending child welfare laws to keep Indi- and all citizens of the central Interior. genous children and their families and communities Other important agreements include a land use plan together. Tat’s a frst too. New strategies for First Nations with the Tahltan Nation to bring certainty to the Klap- justice and poverty reduction — a frst. And the frst-ever pan Valley and a historic reconciliation agreement with Indigenous law program at the University of Victoria — the federal government and the Tsilhqot’in Nation. We a frst in British Columbia, a frst in Canada, a frst in also continue to cultivate our relationship with the Métis the world globally. And investment in mental health and people of British Columbia through an accord with Mét- addiction supports for Indigenous Peoples. is Nation B.C. that, again, builds on work by the previous All of this has contributed to the ongoing work of imple- government, making sure Métis people are part of menting the UN declaration on the rights of Indigenous reconciliation and part of the conversation and actions peoples. Tis important progress, achieved by working in British Columbia. together with Indigenous Peoples, has given us a strong We also, of course, signed an MOU with the Wet’su- foundation for implementing the Declaration on the wet’en Nation, an MOU that starts the negotiation process Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act, Bill 41, that came in last on how to implement Wet’suwet’en rights and title. Reuni- November and passed last November with the support of fcation within the Wet’suwet’en Nation is a key part of all members of the Legislature. It was a momentous occa- that. Complex issues around Wet’suwet’en rights and title sion — I know we all remember it with honour — and have remained unresolved since 1997 and the Del- something all members of the Legislature can be proud of, gamuukw-Gisday’wa decision. By taking the steps to no matter what side of the House we sit on. resolve these issues, we can avoid the kinds of conficts We are the frst jurisdiction in Canada to pass such we’ve seen on the land and instead work together for the legislation — legislation that upholds the human rights beneft of all people who live in the region. of Indigenous Peoples, legislation that provides us with a Tese are a few examples of the reconciliation eforts framework for reconciliation. and progress we are making with First Nations, Métis and Since November, we have had discussions with many urban Indigenous People in this province. Indigenous partners about the critical next steps for con- [11:05 a.m.] sultation and implementation of the act. Tis has included For many nations, treaties are a path to advance recon- First Nations directly, modern treaty nations, First Nations ciliation together, guided by a new policy that modernizes Leadership Council, Métis Nation B.C. and other Indigen- treaty-making in British Columbia. We are basing treaties ous organizations. Tese conversations, along with previ- on the recognition of inherent rights. No longer will gov- ous engagements and agreements, will inform the prior- ernment extinguish those rights. Te policy was developed ities of the action plan, which we expect to be released in collaboration with the federal government and the First before the end of the year. And of course, a couple of weeks Nations Summit. ago we also tabled the frst annual report under the declar- Our approaches to treaty-making are helping us make ation act. progress — Ditidaht and Pacheedaht; We Wai Kai, Wei Te other milestone I’m most proud of from the last Wai Kum and Kwiakah. With all these nations, we moved year was the frst transfer of sharing of gaming revenue. to the fnal stages of treaty negotiations last year. We have Nearly $3 billion will be shared over the next 25 years. Tis also been advancing treaty negotiation through incre- revenue is making a real diference in communities, build- mental treaty agreements. Cowichan Tribes, Penelakut ing sorely needed housing, building a community youth Tribe and Halalt First Nation have all purchased private centre that will ofer support for young people, managing lands through these agreements recently — lands that sup- fuels in a nearby forest to protect homes from wildfres, port economic development for the nations. creating connections to culture that are integral to the Of course, culture is also an important part of advan- health of communities and so much more. We look for- cing reconciliation. For many, many years, language ward to many, many, many stories yet to come and to see- revitalization was neglected, even though all Indigenous ing how this long-term, dependable source of revenue sup- languages in B.C. are endangered. Language is an invalu- ports self-determination and self-governance. able way to connect people to community, to land and to Self-determination is the core of reconciliation. In the culture. We recognized this through a $50 million invest- past year, we have worked collaboratively with nations to ment in 2018. support their unique vision of reconciliation. We celeb- As a result, the First Peoples Culture Council was able rated with the Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council to mark the to quadruple their mentor apprenticeship teams from 27 signing of the pathway forward agreement, an agreement to 109 teams just in the past two years. Tey have more about making lives better for people, with regional eco- than doubled the number of language nests in the province nomic development as a cornerstone of reconciliation. We from 14 to 33. Tis work supports a foundation for the Friday, July 17, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 199 future — a future with thriving Indigenous languages of the caribou issue, but I’m sure that MIRR was very spoken in thriving communities. I hope we can all envi- engaged with those negotiations, or at least MIRR staf sion the day when all Indigenous children can speak their would have been. language. Te question to the minister is: what lessons were Together, we’ve made important progress since 2017, learned with those negotiations — in particular, with when my cabinet colleagues and I received our mandates. regards to the reaction to the non-Indigenous community, As a matter of fact, that was three years ago today, this very both elected as well as the community members at large? day. So it’s interesting that we are doing estimates exactly How has that shaped or changed, if at all, the negotiations three years to the day from this government being sworn that would be going forward on other caribou issues or in. other types of negotiations that MIRR has undertaken or We have much more to do. But the Declaration on the will be undertaking around the province? Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act gives us the tools and the [11:15 a.m.] framework to take the next steps of that work. We have important conversations going on right now with Indigen- Hon. S. Fraser: I thank the member for the question. I ous Peoples to develop the action plan. Within those dis- would suggest that the issues in the Peace around the cari- cussions lies a road map for our shared prosperity ahead. bou reinforce the importance of transparency. Te Premi- Our commitment is to do that work together, in cooper- er acknowledged last year the importance of transparency ation and consultation, with respect and with Indigenous publicly when this was a signifcant issue. Peoples. In response and how we reacted to that, we built a com- Tank you. I look forward to our discussions today. mittee — a table, if you will — with local governments and Klecko klecko. First Nations all at the same table. We continue to learn and try to be more efective on how we do our work and D. Ashton: Minister, nice to see you again. I would like how we work with local communities as well as with, of to also extend thanks to your staf for being there. course, First Nations in our negotiations. Bringing people In the essence of time…. I appreciate it. Tank you for together always seems to be the best approach. your remarks. Very well said. I would like to turn over to the member for Nechako Lakes. J. Rustad: Te real challenge, I think, in the Peace coun- try — and that, unfortunately, we’ve seen repeated in some J. Rustad: Tank you to the minister for his opening other negotiations— is that the engagement with the non- comments. I’m going to try to be brief, in terms of some Indigenous community and other stakeholders, as the questions. So I won’t dilly-dally, I suppose. Let’s get right minister has described, is afer negotiations in a reaction- to it. ary perspective, as opposed to during negotiations or even I want to start of…. Te minister talked about this prenegotiations to talk about the objectives and to be engagement between his government and First Nations — involved in the process and to be brought along. advancing deals, advancing negotiations. How is the min- I am curious as to whether or not that engagement the ister engaging with non-Indigenous people, in terms of minister has described is a part of the actual negotiation these agreements and processes, so that they can have the process or whether that’s more of an afer process in terms information and be part of what is going on with the nego- of working through issues once the basic agreements have tiations? already been reached with nations. [11:10 a.m.] Hon. S. Fraser: Tanks to the member, again, for the Hon. S. Fraser: Tank you for the frst question, to the questions. Tey’re good questions. colleague opposite. I want to acknowledge the work he’s I will reiterate that we are committed to transparency done in previous time as minister also. here. Te tables that we are negotiating with happened To the ministry question, though, transparency is key. at the same time as the stakeholder engagement. First It’s critical to the success of any negotiations that we Nations are actually sometimes joining us at those tables. engage in. We apply diferent approaches with stakehold- We’re trying to ensure that everyone has information really ers — of course, with regional staf, with open houses, with in real time. letters, with materials online. Sufce to say that transpar- ency is critical to the success of any negotiations in all J. Rustad: I like that approach. It doesn’t seem to be hap- regions of the province. pening quite that way on a number of fles where people have approached me on that. J. Rustad: Obviously, there was a lot of friction in the [11:20 a.m.] Peace country when the negotiations went on with regards Given time here, I want to switch and talk a little bit the caribou arrangement that was ultimately struck. I about the Wet’suwet’en MOU and issues there. As the know other ministries may have taken the lead in terms engagement now has started post the signing of the MOU, 200 Committee of Supply, Section A Friday, July 17, 2020 can the minister describe the engagement with the non- Wet’suwet’en people with regards to the negotiations and Indigenous communities to keep them abreast of what is the process that is being undertaken. happening, what the MOU is about, and an update with regards to how negotiations are going? How is that pro- Hon. S. Fraser: Again, thanks to the member for the cess? How are the non-Indigenous communities being question. kept up to date with those discussions? I think everyone recognizes the importance of working towards rights and title — certainly, from the elected and Hon. S. Fraser: In answer, the regional staf that we the hereditary but also the stakeholders — in the interests have working at MIRR and the chief negotiator, of course, of more certainty and the predictability that that will are having regular contact with stakeholders and with local bring. Tat seems to be understood. government and will continue do so. [11:30 a.m.] Smithers’ acting mayor, I know, came out with a state- J. Rustad: Perhaps if the minister could describe — I ment at one point afer the MOU indicating cautious understand it would be the regional staf — any contract- optimism. I think that’s where we’re at right now. ors or other consultants that might be engaged in that pro- cess of engaging with the non-Indigenous communities. J. Rustad: Well, the minister didn’t really answer the second part of the question with that, but that’s fne. We Hon. S. Fraser: As I think the member knows, we’ve are short on time. But I will say into the record that my brought in to help on this particular issue. understanding is that the calls and discussions, particu- He’s got lots of local knowledge and, of course, is well larly with the elected representatives of the Wet’suwet’en known and well respected by all. He’s also involved in dis- people, have not gone well. Tey feel frustrated with the cussions with local stakeholders. process. Tey feel that their voices are not being heard and that their concerns are not being considered as the process J. Rustad: How is MIRR engaged or involved with goes forward. Tat’s unfortunate. not just keeping the non-Indigenous communities and Tere are the internal issues that are happening within stakeholders involved, the people involved, but also the the Wet’suwet’en people, and I understand that. But it’s Wet’suwet’en people themselves, the elected chief and something that I think certainly the minister and the min- council, and the process that’s in there? Is MIRR directly istry should be very concerned about in terms of how or indirectly involved, or is it contractors engaging with such an important issue as the future for the Wet’suwet’en those groups? people…. Title is the key piece of that future in building I know, obviously, the Wet’suwet’en people themselves that prosperity for the Wet’suwet’en people. have got some processes and stuf involved. I’m just curi- I want to move on to another question in terms of ous as to what level of engagement MIRR is directly time. My understanding — I think I just need some clar- involved in with those issues. ity from the minister — is that they’ve engaged with [11:25 a.m.] Nathan Cullen. Is Nathan Cullen paid directly as a con- tractor through the ministry? Does it come out of con- Hon. S. Fraser: In answer to the question, actually, I tingencies, or is it a contract done through some other have been. As minister, I’ve been in contact with elected agency within government? Chiefs as recently as yesterday. Tat work will continue, as I think it’s important that I’m directly involved there. Also, Hon. S. Fraser: In answer, Nathan Cullen is under con- of course, regional staf are in touch with the elected on a tract with the ministry, with MIRR, and he’s paid for out of whole range of issues on a regular basis. ministry operations.

J. Rustad: Tere’s a couple of practical questions I need J. Rustad: My understanding from information that we to go down here, and I’ll turn it back over to the critic. received for the ten-day period in January where Mr. Cul- I’m just curious. Te consultant that you have, Nathan len was employed within the ministry is that his rate of Cullen, I agree, is, obviously…. As a previous MP in the remuneration for the work that he did was $2,000 a day area, he is well aware of the issues that are up in there and plus $5,000 for expenses. Could the minister confrm that very knowledgable about the people that are, obviously, that is the rate that Mr. Cullen is being paid for the work the key people that are engaged in that area. I’m aware that that he is continuing to do for the Ministry of Indigenous he also has been involved in some of the phone calls with Relations in terms of engagement with the Wet’suwet’en? the elected and those kinds of issues. I’m just curious — between the consultant, the staf and Hon. S. Fraser: In answer, Nathan Cullen is paid, cur- the minister, who has directly been engaged, as he has said, rently, $250 an hour up to a maximum of $2,000 per day, through to them — what the response has been from the but that is work that is directed by the ministry. Te time non-Indigenous communities as well as from the elected and the work is directed by the ministry. Friday, July 17, 2020 Committee of Supply, Section A 201

[11:35 a.m.] E. Ross: To the minister, your government, through the Solicitor General, actually redeployed the RCMP to J. Rustad: I’m assuming expenses would be, of course, enforce an injunction to remove the blockade on the LNG on top of that rate. Perhaps if the minister could compare Canada pipeline. My question is: was this done through that compensation to other contractors that are working, communication or direction from your ministry? in terms of negotiations, within the ministry. Hon. S. Fraser: Te answer is no. Hon. S. Fraser: His rates are at a reasonable average. Tere’s a range, but it’s in a reasonable average. E. Ross: To the minister, thank you for that. To the minister, was there any communication before- J. Rustad: So taking a 200-workday year, it’s $400,000 hand to your ministry, the cabinet or even the government plus expenses. Tat’s the average that is being paid to con- as a whole before the Solicitor General actually redeployed tractors that work within the ministry? I fnd that a little the RCMP to this blockade of the Wet’suwet’en? curious, given those rates would be almost double what a [11:45 a.m.] deputy minister would be paid for the work that a deputy minister does. Hon. S. Fraser: My ministry wasn’t involved in any To that end, is the contractor, Mr. Cullen, required to aspect of directing police actions. I don’t have any more produce any written reports with regards to the work that information than that. is being undertaken and any updates in terms of the nego- tiations or the process that might be able to be made pub- E. Ross: Tat was not the question. Te question was: lic? was there any communication? To be specifc, was the government, the cabinet or your ministry aware of these Hon. S. Fraser: MIRR, the Ministry of Indigenous Rela- actions before the Solicitor General sent in the RCMP to tions and Reconciliation, directs Nathan’s work. Tat not only enforce the injunction to uphold the rule of law includes his time. We are mindful of budget issues, and but also to cover any expenses of the RCMP? that comes into that too. He reports directly to our chief I’m not saying that your ministry had any involvement negotiator. But I just want to be clear. Nathan’s role…. He’s in the direction or the deployment. I’m asking: did the focused on engagement. He’s not a negotiator. He’s not government or your ministry or cabinet…? Were they negotiating. He reports out weekly or more ofen, as the aware of this action before the Solicitor General made this situation dictates. decision to deploy the RCMP? [11:40 a.m.] Hon. S. Fraser: To the member’s question, just to be J. Rustad: Te question was whether there were any clear here, the province did not and does not direct police written reports that would be available. But to that extent actions and did not. We in the ministry are not aware…. as well, my last question to the minister, and I’ll turn this Te question he’s asked…. I have no awareness of that. So back over to the critic aferwards. perhaps these questions are better placed with the Solicit- Can the minister provide a summary of the number or General. of hours and expenses to date that have been incurred by Nathan Cullen, and with that, if possible, a summary E. Ross: It’s quite surprising, because the Union of B.C. of any of the sort of reports or engagements that he has Indian Chiefs as well as the Tsleil-Waututh, the Squamish undertaken? Band and B.C. Civil Liberties have all claimed they got a I’m going to sign of at this point. I know the critic will written letter from the Solicitor General actually outlining have an opportunity to hear the answer. I’ll certainly look what I’ve just asked. for it in Hansard, but my hope is to be able to get that It’s kind of surprising that the Indigenous Ministry has summary. Obviously, it’s very important information. Te no knowledge of this issue of the government deploying engagement and the work that’s being done is critical, both the RCMP and ofering to cover the cost of deploying the with the non-Indigenous and Indigenous communities. RCMP to get rid of this blockade. I look forward to that information. I want to thank the Anyway, in any event, this is probably not going to be minister as well as staf for the opportunity to ask a few the last time, especially since there has been a smokehouse questions here today. that has been built in the right-of-way of the pipeline. So if the Solicitor General or the government decides to enact Hon. S. Fraser: I’ll commit today. We’ll provide the these emergency powers to enforce the injunction again, information that’s available to the member for the previous this time around, will the Solicitor General consult with question. In the interest of time, I think that would be the or communicate to your ministry or to cabinet or the gov- most efective. We can put that together for him, and we ernment of its intention to invoke emergency act powers will. 202 Committee of Supply, Section A Friday, July 17, 2020 to enforce an injunction to get rid of the blockade in the Hon. S. Fraser: In response, the agreements with Kit- pipeline? sumkalum…. For the record, all ministries and Crown corps have dir- Hon. S. Fraser: Again, the government does not direct ect relationships with First Nations across the province. the RCMP operations or tell them what to do. Tis question is relating to the Ministry of Energy, Mines Tis is a question directly at and about the Solicitor and Petroleum Resources. Tey are best placed to answer General. So I would suggest that if anyone has the that question. answers, it would be the Solicitor General. I do not have [11:55 a.m.] those answers. [11:50 a.m.] E. Ross: Okay. Tanks, Minister. My last question is…. Te MOU that B.C. and Canada E. Ross: Okay. So the minister won’t know if the Soli- signed with the Wet’suwet’en Hereditary Chiefs basically citor General will consult with his ministry if they decide revolves around jurisdiction rights and title. It really has to invoke, again, emergency act provisions to remove an nothing to do with the blockade of the pipeline. I know the Aboriginal protest on a pipeline blockade. Okay. rights and title issue. It’s basically implemented through I guess, then, that’s saying there’s complete ignorance three diferent mechanisms: the B.C. treaty process, the from your ministry in terms of this deployment as well as courts or in specifc agreements between government, in the cost. Ten I’m going to assume that the minister has no really specifc circumstances. knowledge of the actual cost that the government actually In this case of the Wet’suwet’en, it’s unclear. In fact, no incurred to get rid of this blockade. information has come out of the ministry in terms of the subject matter and content. Hon. S. Fraser: A question for the Solicitor General. Can I ask…? In the mandate that B.C. has, is private Tese questions are regarding a diferent ministry. I do not land on the table for discussion? Are rights-of-way on the have the information. I’m not making any excuses for that. table for discussion in terms of the jurisdiction? Meaning, He is asking direct questions regarding the Solicitor Gen- will private land owners in the area that you talk about, eral and the operation of that ministry. I’m not fuent on or rights-of-way — including highways, pipelines, hydro that. Tat’s not what I do. lines — all be subject to Wet’suwet’en Hereditary Chief laws, as opposed to Canadian laws or B.C. laws? E. Ross: I’m not asking about the Solicitor General’s duties or the actions. I’m asking about whether or not the Hon. S. Fraser: Tanks to the member for the ques- Indigenous Ministry was consulted or involved in any way, tion. Te member, I think, suggested that the informa- or even communicated the idea of removing a blockade. tion is not available, but the MOU, all one page of it — Yeah, okay. If there was no involvement of the Indigenous or two pages, I guess — is available. It’s been online and Ministry in the Solicitor General deploying the RCMP — available for a while; it’s been public. So the information and covering the RCMP’s costs, to boot — then I’ll leave of the MOU is there. But private land and rights-of-way that where it is. are not on the table. In terms of, basically…. Let’s say, for lack of a better word, independent power projects of B.C. I’m specifcally Te Chair: Member, we’ll take one more question, and talking about Kitsumkalum. Now, Kitsumkalum has then we’re going to have to note the hour. already done years and years and years of consultation on the northwest pacifc transmission line. E. Ross: Chair, noting the hour…. Te consultation is complete, and that consultation ended with a formal legal agreement signed, on behalf of Hon. S. Fraser: I move that the committee rise, report the government, between B.C. Hydro and Kitsumkalum. resolution and completion of the estimates of the Ministry Tat agreement actually talked about the Kitsumkalum’s of Agriculture and report progress on the estimates of the consent to build a transmission line in their territory in Ministry of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation. exchange for the cooperation of the government and B.C. Hydro to actually build Kitsumkalum IPPs. Motion approved. Since 2012, they’ve been working at trying to get this completed, and now Kitsumkalum fnds that all of this Te Chair: We are now adjourned for lunch. Have a might be for nothing. So I’m asking the Indigenous Minis- good day. ter here: what is your ministry going to do not to consult with the IPP projects…? Tat’s already done. What is your Te committee adjourned at 11:59 a.m. ministry going to do to actually fulfll the accommodation portion that is written out in this agreement between B.C. Hydro and Kitsumkalum? Hansard Services, Reporting and Publishing

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