Mike Papantonio Frederic Levin Oral History Project LEVN-014
Interview by: Dr. Paul Ortiz February 28, 2020
U i e i f F ida Sa e P c O a Hi P g a Pa O i , Di ec P.O. Box 115215, 241 Pugh Hall, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611-5215 https://oral.history.ufl.edu
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program College of Liberal Arts and Sciences
Program Director: Dr. Paul Ortiz 241 Pugh Hall PO Box 115215 Gainesville, FL 32611 (352) 392-7168 https://oral.history.ufl.edu
LEVN 015 Mike Papantonio Levin Law Frederic Levin Oral History Project (LEVN) Interviewed by Paul Ortiz on February 28, 2020 44 minutes | 26 pages
Abstract: In this interview, Mike Papantonio discusses the ideology of the Levin Papantonio Law Firm including the idea of culturally significant legacy cases and of aiming to level the playing field. He explores the impact Fred Levin had on his career focusing on Levin support of him as a young lawyer new to the firm and highligh ing a fe of Le in Pa an onio majo ca e such as those concerning asbestos, tobacco and C-8. Papantonio also discusses ial la e importance and the role they play in American society as watchdogs and agents of cultural change when the media, regulatory agencies such as the Food and Drug Administration, and the presidency fail in this role. He decries the prevalence of agent capture and argues that the law can be just as important for social change as protests such as Occupy Wall Street. He also examines the quality of a law degree today expressing disappointment in the lack of trial law training that young lawyers receive and discussing his own da gh e la chool choice
UFDC link https://ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00079099
Keywords: [Law; Education; Media; Mass tort; Trial lawyers; Pensacola, Florida]
LEVN 015 Interviewee: Mike Papantonio Interviewer: Paul Ortiz Date of Interview: February 28, 2020
O: Good morning Mr. Mike Papantonio.
P: Morning.
O: T a . M a Pa O . W a
doing a remake oral history interview. Thank you so much.
P: Thanks Dan.
O: And I really appreciate, Mike, taking time out of
P: Sure, course.
O: your busy schedule. I wonder at the last round of interviews that we did with you
a a a a a a a a
used: We work to level the playing field.
P: Yeah I think the notion of leveling the playing field we actually take a little bit
beyond that and that is that the typical lawyer gets out of law school and
so tied into the notion of practicing the law the same way that the generation before
the a a a a a a a a
they have all these skill sets, they come out of law school they say Well okay that
generation, they did automobile, , medical malpractice, social
security, therefore I have to do it too, a I a a
different around here is I always tell my lawyers and I tell when we go to Las Vegas
when a thousand, five hundred lawyers are there I remind them of what this firm
has been about all the way back to Fred Levi a a a
that is called a legacy case. I I a a a a I
to write about the legacy case even as a young lawyer because it was instilled in LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 2 me from Fred and that is that it is much more effective if you take those skills and you hone those skills and you make a a between selling a car and selling a jet. O a a
a a a a I a a . I could spend all my time in here handling ten thousand automobile cases 1-800 a a accident gimme a call, a I a I a a a a but the way I look at everything is to say when my child or my closest friends ask me what is that I accomplished? What did I do as far as changing culture?
I a a a a a a a a a F led that charge. W a I I a a a a I of Fred when he took on the tobacco industry and he said and we all men in a room can we do this? You know this is the biggest thing in the country maybe the biggest thing that been historically had ever hit in the country besides the Civil
Rights Movement and so it was that big you know because we had what hundreds of thousands of people dying about it and so we all in this firm have taken on that
a a a a a o something make it count. N a
a a a a a a a what this firm does. You can go anywhere in the country and ask about what this
a a A a a a a this the last two years in a row it was chosen the premier class action firm mass tort firm in A a. W P a a, F a. Y
a a N Y , or LA but why did that happen? It
a a F T LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 3
merged with all of our leadership and we determined that this is our course. If you
a a a a a a I I a I
was just a kid I mean relatively a kid [Laughter] trying some of the biggest
asbestos cases in America. Well, why could I do that? I could do it because Fred,
Fred: A, enabled me to do it, okay? He said yeah this is something we want for the
firm; we want to change culture we want to make societal leaps a a a
s a a a a a a .
Understand before tobacco we were taking on [Laughter] some of the biggest
cases in America.
O: When did you first become aware of and then meet Fred Levin? I mean take me
back to that
P: Well Fred and I I was hired by another lawyer in this firm a fellow named Leo
T a a a a a Da L a a I
of came up on a different track. Fred was doing his things; my I was trying to build
something completely different. But what I was trying to build was completely in
concert with Fred and so I guess the time that we started really, I would think those
two paths merging was with tobacco.
O: Okay.
P: By the time tobacco had taken place on my track we had handled the HIV
contamination case which was huge you know people you had hemophiliacs dying
by the hundreds because you had corporations that were selling HIV infected blood
factor so that was one/won. The breast implant case was another. The half a dozen
pharmaceutical cases, the asbestos cases, so all of a sudden all of those things LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 4
tha I a F a a a
which is we can do more than say you know we handled ten thousand auto cases.
O: Yes, sir.
P: N a 1-800 auto crash I you
k . B I our child
twenty years from now and say what did you accomplish? W , I
I a a a a a I
helped thei a a .
O: Sure.
P: But did a cultural change take place as a result of what you did?
O: What kind of cultural changes have you seen, sir, as a result of the work of this
firm?
P: Oh, I could I . L a a the way back because again the
things that I was able to do was only because Fred had the vision to allow me to
do it and to build I mean [Sighs] a a t come into a law firm
a a Hey I wanna go do this, unless the per a a
Y a , I like your plan. That was Fred Levin. Okay so the changes are asbestos.
I mean the cases that this firm handled on asbestos were part and parcel of
changing the way that we are ability to sell asbestos in this country. It protected
, a a a a
of asbestos can cause mesothelioma, deadly cancer. F I a
a a a had
or had those drugs black boxed. The hemophiliac case that I told you about, Bayer LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 5
had infected the blood of blood supply of the factoring medicine because what they
had done is, they had tried to cut corners and they collected plasma in the most
poverty stricken places in the country, so it was cheap. So they understand that
a a a HIV a
what HIV was, but they did. But they had infected their factor 8 product that
hemophiliacs used to save their lives with HIV. We got that off the market in the
United S a . U a a a a a a
the world anyway and thousands of people died after that. I mean the opioid case
a a a a a
happen. We launched the case in the United States, nobody else did, we did. The
human trafficking case that you know has been kicking around we launched that.
We launched the C-8 case PFOS and PFOSA which is a contaminant in the water
a a . We had I personally tried those cases to
launch the project in the Ohio River Valley but let me come back to the reason
: I a ? B a I a a hat had bought into Fred
Levi a a a a a I
think one time a a a a a a a
me.
O: [Inaudible]
P: Or I could have had a senior partner that said Pap, this is ridiculous, you matter
fact I can name a dozen lawyers that are my personal friends that had to leave
their firms cause the leadership in the firm did not have the sense to understand
that what they did for a living mattered more than a damn comp case or an auto LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 6
case and so they left the firm and in their own right they built what they needed to
build which changes culture. When we go after the Wall Street thugs that steal
money from mom-and-pop organizations and pension programs and somebody
a a a . U a a
a a a A a
a a a R a a a a MBA Ha a a
a a , a a a
a a a a
gets caught and goes to life from prison. These people kill people by the
thousands, a . T a a a a
. I a a J
in West Virginia a I a a
Nevada. [Sighs] But we can talk about it, we can take their money away from em,
F a a a a a: a a
in else we perk walk these people?
O: Right.
P: Does culture ever change, or do we simply say somebody in MBA school ten years
from now says you know Uncle Joe got away with this maybe we oughta try to get
away with this. The BP case we were one of the only four firms in the country that
were asked to lead that case, okay?
O: I remember people said they were just too big. T e
P: Y a a , , a ? W a
paid back for all the losses that they had from that criminal enterprise; you see? LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 7
And so even in that the best thing I can tell you is did we go far enough? Everybody
says wel , , tribal, a ? I a a a a ,
here we had a president that I had worked hard to get elected Obama and Fred
had worked hard to get elected, we thought he was gonna be the guy. Well, okay
we know what BP did, right? They killed they killed twelve people. They destroyed
an entire ecosystem. N a . W a ? Y , a a ,
a a a a , a a . So you
keep you keep coming back to this theme: what is it that makes us different? We
think like that. We think okay the licensing we have are we going to change
a ? A a a a a , ? A
that, why the hell am I doing here every day? I mean I could have retired thirty
years go but I continue doing this because what we do genuinely matters and that
has been instilled in me from Fred Levin.
O: Fred Levin.
P: Fred Levin as a young lawyer.
O: Brilliant, I wonder if you could talk about, I mean you did a wonderful job talking
about like the big picture and the cultural changes and I wonder if you could talk
about some of your fondest memories working with Fred like one on one? Things
that people know.
P: W , . F a I a a . N
a I a to, but he was doing his thing and I was doing mine and in the
process we again those two things converged you see? And as they converged,
a a about. Well, that happened thirty years ago. LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 8
Y a , a a a . S a a a I really, I F a I
cases together. He tries his cases, I try mine and I guess the closest that Fred and
I a I a
what I think is one of the most important books on closing arguments that has ever
been written. When we worked together on that we had a lot of time to sit and talk
and say w a a a a
a . [Laughter]
O: Really? [Inaudible]
P: You know we get to the same place the same way. S I a I a
help you in saying yeah we went to trial together because you know we this firm is
organized in a way to where we are very much on our own tracks you see and my
track has been to build mass tort cases and to build these projects and his has
been to handle some of the most significant single event cases in the country and
a .
O: Now Mr. Papantonio, you mentioned the cultural changes and when I was I
remember talking to Fred and Mark Proctor at our last discussions and they were
talking about kind of the push back, the political push back against you know quote
on quote trial lawyers. Can you talk about that?
P: Yeah, I can talk about it. The pushback that comes from the US Chamber of
Commerce and comes from associated industries and comes from fairly
sophisticated defense firms that should know better never less they do it anyway
a a a a a
democratic process. The pushback is so dangerous for these reasons, alright, A, LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 9
we think we can count on regulators to protect us, we think that we have the FDA
there, and the DEA, and the all of the EPA, the Securities and Exchange group,
we think we have all these regulators there that gonna watch and make sure that
corporate America plays fair. W , a a a a a
a a a a a a a . They hire
the people that are running the agency they make telephone calls like Joe, you
I a a a . Oh
by the a J a a and fifty thousand dollars a year
a a ive you job for half
a million a year. T a a a cy capture, it goes on every single day in
A a. T a a , a a
looking out for us, a a . N a ther from the
. T a a a . I a a a . I a a a
a a CNN, MSNBC, F N , I
a a a a I a a a a m
University of Florida.
O: With Air America.
P: W A A a. A a a A A a a . W a a
a a a a a , a ?
T a a a a otted a
Ma a Wa C H B . I a
game. All news is right now is entertainment and so advertisers tell the media what
they can and cannot tell as far as the story. I a a a LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 10
count ten, nine, eight Pa a , a , a ,
they change the story in the middle of the count and take me from doing a story
about a Bayer product a people by the hundreds to Pap, we want to
change it to the 1st Amendment. Why did they do that? They do it because
a a . I a I a a a
move from doing my commentary or contributing from all these networks and go
RT, R a T , I a a a a A a La .
And you know it was a a I a a
the most significant very significant journalists in the country right now that have
a a a . So, a a , a
a a a a
the White House? The White House is always going to push back according to
what the political winds are. We believed that there was a big difference between
say Bush and Obama or Bush and Clinton in the way that they interacted with
a . T . I , a a
have to be reelected, it takes a lot of money to be reelected, Citizens United turned
all of that on its head, right?
O: Mmhm.
P: So we had people, like even Obama, who by the way, I raised a lot of money for I
worked very hard for. But in the end, what happened with [Inaudible] do you
remember? Obama ran for office saying you know Wall Street stole eight trillion
dollars from us in the burn down in the scam the biggest scam that took place in
this country where people lost trillions of dollars because the banking industry stole LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 11
it from em. Wall Street stole it from em and we almost put this country into a
depression. Alright you would a O a a a We got to put
some people in jail about that, nobody went to jail. Nothing changes you see. We
believe that there we become so tribal we believe that all these things take these
changes take pla a a a , e supported by the White House,
a, a a
not for the trial lawyer that puts everything on the line. The C-8 case that we just
finished if you want to see a great movie go watch The Devil We Know
N a a a a a a O
River Valley where we took DuPont on and proved to the American public that they
were killing people with something called C-8 that they were dumping in the water
in the Ohio River Valley. By the time we went to trial we were fifteen million dollars
at risk, okay? B a a a a a a
a a a .
O: W I a a a a a Na a
and he has both asbestos and agent orange
P: Yep.
O: a a a a a a
veterans about the time when those illnesses were blamed on personal issues like
they would say while what did you smoke or do you, you know and anything but to
put the blame where it should have been
P: Yeah.
O: Right? LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 12
P: T a a a , a ?
You have I La K a . H a a Pa , ld
you would you represent Julian Assange, of course I would, of course I would
represent Snowden, of course I would represent Daniel I would have represented
Daniel Ellsburg, I a a
huge risk to a a a let me land it
by saying and you know what Fred Levin would have encouraged me to do that
a a a a . You see we a a
time when we just believe that we rock along, and the news is telling us what the
Kardashians won to award to a an awards ceremony or what Paris Hilton where
a a a a a A a .
W a a a .
O: Yeah.
P: We think about those things in this law firm and the reason we do is it goes all the
way back to Fred.
O: R . W , I a a 2008 a a a I a
idea that you started hearing that you know Wall Street a a , a
the individual you know small home buyer who took on more than they could afford
and so was the thing that caused the meltdown, such a bizarre thing but it was
promoted
P: By the media, it was promoted by the media.
O: Right. LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 13
P: W a , a a a ? D a a
okay? I was doing that story all over the place during that time and the people that
I was counting on were people that actually understood. They took the time to look
a . W a a a . J a
journalism is there only because it has to be. If you turn on ABC news, CNN,
MSNBC, a , a a . They get a
fraction of the story and whatever that fraction of the story is at the top the what I
call the low hanging fruit is the only story we get. So the idea of the burn down, the
financial burn down in this country was fed to journalists who were lazy, did not do
their job, and bought into all of that. How did the Iraq War start? The same way.
W a a . W a a
take the time to look further? You had a dozen of em, one of em Phil Donahue,
dear friend of mine, lost his job because he talked about it, MSNBC fired him
because he would not go along with the popular talking point. Let me round that
back okay? Why do we do that? Why, why do we think like them? Because we are
a . F a . Maybe
. B a . A a a
relationship has allowed us to change so much. His thinking merging with what
can change things in this country has been a big factor.
O: Yes, sir. Well what would be when you talk about cultural changes you know the
a a F a , , a
make that even broader beyond the law to affect a cultural change where we
a Wall S a a , a a . LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 14
P: Well, there have been a a a
a , a a a a a . I
believe in capitalism. I I
but it is but there is ugly capitalism where awful people do awful things to people,
right? And we believe that if we just organize if we just go to the streets that
a , ? What was the big movement that took place
ten years ago? They showed up on Wall Street
O: Occupy Wall Street.
P: Occupy Wall Street. Okay, well I had friends that participated in that, I
a a I a I had, I would have em on my TV show, have
em on Ring of Fire or whatever I was doing at the time. And you could tell that
even in their mind they understood that g a ,
. A , a I a a a a a : a ? A
sounds harsh, but I am a true believer in what I am telling you.
O: Okay.
P: Until bad people are, no matter how they look no mat a
a a a A a a a R a a a
B a a a Ha a a a MBA. I a . W a
blind to that. When they break the law and they hurt people on behalf of a
corporation, on behalf of themselves, we have to put them in prison just like we do
a a . A a . T
Occupy Wall Street. That was a massive undertaking. I mean it was massive. It
lasted for two years and nevertheless the people that were in the middle of it would LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 15 call me and call, Pa , I a a a , I know. R a B Sa , B
Sanders two, okay? Wh a a B Sa 1 ? W ?
Because establishment, corporate, ugly capitalism, politics pushed Bernie aside in
a a O , , a a A a public. We are Wall Street Democrats. We have a great relationship with Wall
Street. They treat us right, they pay us money and we take care of them, right?
That did away with Bernie one B . A
a a . H a a a . I a a
. I a a . I a a this point. Literally indifferent. But I a a a a I a a observer I see Bernie actually is formitting a political revolution of sorts to say that
a a . T a a a a a
, ause establishment Democratic politics, establishment Wall Street D a a . I a be spoon fed what the candidate must be. They must be middle of the road. They
a a a a a a a us. For example Bernie comes
a a a a a F C a.
W a a . T a . B a a
a a a a a a . S [Scoffs] until we understand that we are centered in this this Wall Street phenomenon to where we treat them special, until we start treating them like any other country would treat em. I told you about the HIV case, right? LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 16
O: Yes, sir.
P: Alright. In France, four people went to prison. Okay, because of that. In the United
S a , . S I . T bullet,
but this is the closest I can give you.
O: Right.
P: We can go to the streets. And it just it has a shelf life of a month, two months,
maybe a year.
O: Probably a good idea to combine all of the above, right?
P: Maybe, maybe.
O: You know?
P: W , a a C R M a a
example. There was, you know, Rosa Parks sitting in the back of the bus was
great. The people that were beat and had dogs sicked on em down in up in
Birmingham or down in Miami that wanted to sit at a diner. That all worked together
and culminated but it was all these individual events that all of the sudden they
coalesced, and you bring about cultural change that we saw with the Civil Rights
M . I a a .
O: Yes, sir.
P: I a Ma L K a a . I a a a a
of other singular events that were taking place that all culminated for change.
O: E a . W , I a a , a ?
P: I, I ve got a few more minutes. LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 17
O: Okay, oh, cool. Well, yeah that was something I also wanted to talk about cause I
was thinking about as you were talking about the strategies to change the culture
that the Civil Rights Movement could provide you know one model in the sense
that you know you had people in the streets, you had people sitting in, but you also
had these amazing attorneys in fact UF is about to award an honorary doctorate
to John Due who worked with SNCC and McComb taking depositions
P: Mmhm. Sure.
O: which lead to the voter Voting Rights Act. So there were these, but again the
a a a a a a , ,
Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights A , a
what had led up to that which was you know these really courageous people taking
on these unjust laws.
P: You know truth is people live in a bubble, alright. You have a bubble.
O: Sure.
P: Sometimes I have a bubble and what our goal is every day is to move outside that
bubble right? To say we have been given these things to think about today I read
it in the newspaper, I saw it on television so I can I have to avoid singularly
thinking about a a a . Wa a .
The, right now the political parties are unable to that.
O: Right.
P: But your point is exactly, your point is exactly it. We when we can move outside
the bubble and we can analyze th I , I .
La a . LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 18
O: [Laughter] W a I a I a ,
your next five to ten years like what are you hoping to accomplish as you know you
a a a
hope this firm goes and what do you hope to [Inaudible]?
P: T a a . R , a a n they
chose five lawyers throughout the country that have been active in various kinds
a a a a a
a a a , ? S , a
many more lawyers than five, but they chose five and when I was talking to them,
a a , a a , I a a .
Can the millennials do it? Are they motivated to do it? Do they, buy into this need
, a a I a a . I know University of Florida,
for example, I think is woefully inadequate in what they do in training trial lawyers.
T a a a a LSAT a a big great grade point
average. Where do those people go? Where do most of them go? If you look at it
a a a a a a . I
a a a a a a a ing to
a a a a
a a a a , a ? T a
is very, a . A a a , I a
more, I mean I can tell you firsthand because I do some of the hiring around here
a I a . T a a a a ,
new lawyers, to be able to go out and try a lawsuit by the time they graduate is a LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 19
a . I a a a , I a
domestic law, not to have them prepared to do that is awful. So, what happens
when our, our little generation moves on? Are they prepared to do this? Are they
interested in doing it? Has anybody sat down and talked to them, the significance
of taking, taking up this mantle and saying you know yeah, I a I a
a a , a , a a I a ? A
the end of the day, their success is oh gee, I kept [Laughter] this corporation from
having to pay for the death of a thousand people that they caused. Is that a
success? I a , a , a Clarence Darrow, it was about
Clarence Darrow. And Darrow used to work for L&N Railroad and he it was the
only money he ever made in his career up to that point and they wanted him to
represent a, wanted him to represent a, the railroad against a widow and three
children where it was very clear that L&N Railroad had killed this man. It was
nothing short of manslaughter in their reckless negligence. And so he walks into
a I a , a
a a I a a a I a
lin a a a . T a a I a
to understand okay? And if we can get, and the only way lawyers, young lawyers
can do that is to be equipped to do it, to be trial lawyers, to understand how to how
to take a deposition, how to open, how to close, how to cross examine.
O: Right.
P: Instead they all want to be mediators, they want to be arbitrators, they wanna, they
a a a a a a a . LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 20
O: Yeah. Well how do you, how do you make that pitch though Mike to, to say a dean
of a law school, or college presidents say look you gotta change things, I mean
how would you make that pitch?
P: I a a , a a . I a a c view of the world.
Why did I send my daughter to Stetson Law School, okay? The law school is
named after my law partner. She had all the grades she needed to get in. She
knocked the top off the LSAT, could have gotten into Florida easily. Why did I
choose to send her to Stetson? Because they got the best trial program in America
and they have for twenty a . T a a a a
law. Well, you can do both, but you have to be invested into doing both. And I it
scares the bejesu a I . Y I a a a a
schools in this country, Temple University where the Hall of Fame is, where the
trial lawyer Hall of Fame, Stetson University, Cumberland of all places,
Birmingham, Alabama, you got Mississippi a
a , B a a . H a a a
? W a a ?
O: W , a I a a a is you
know we interview veterans of the Civil Rights Movement in the Mississippi Delta
and we always stop on the way back and Mark Proctor takes us out to lunch and I
always have a number of pre-law students on that trip and they ask Mark you know
why did you want to become an attorney you know and he gives us that you know
a a a a
undergraduates LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 21
P: I a .
O: Y a , a a . T a a great
a , a , a Mark P a a .
P: H ? I a a a ? Y a a a
a a a a wrote
a I a a a a a I a a
good. O a , a . T a a . How do you do any more social
good than stopping a corporation from killing thousands of people with their
defective product? Or a corporation from just exterminating an entire ecosystem
because of their environmental recklessness. How do you do any more social good
than finding all the Bernie Ma a a ? T a a
good. And in the process, does it pay well? Yes, this firm generates more money
than any of the defense firms in this state. You know, and we do it by we do well
by doing good.
O: Mmhm.
P: I a a a. Anybody, if you want to see the formula go to Temple Law
School and see that, the what the Hall of Fame looks like and listen to the stories
of those lawyers. T a a
a a .
O: W a entioned in your own work Clarence Darrow,
Atticus Finch, you know people who we should look up to, a a
even know the back story behind them.
P: N , . LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 22
O: Like the L&N story, I mean, people think of Clarence Darrow and they think of you
know the monkey trial case, right?
P: Yeah, yeah.
O: But they never think of the L&N. You know what that story illustrates is so much
about him as a person.
P: Of course.
O: Right?
P: Of course.
O: I .
P: So, well I think part of it is the law school part, the university system. I mean I
interview lawyers here that graduated at the top of their class at some you know
great law school, or you know, a I a , a a a
Steinbeck books? And they if they can even tell us The Grapes of Wrath
remarkable. How bout Kafka? Tell me what your favorite Kafka book is or Conrad
F a a . [Laughter] Because how do you what we do for
a living without having that wo a a
a a . T , a . T a
need to know. They get out of law school on need to know. And when they come
out, a a a hat they could possibly draft an
opening statement that moves people.
O: T a . T a ?
P: It is, it is.
O: You have to be able to do that. LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 23
P: Yeah.
O: Yeah. Wow. Well, this is amazing, and you have any, any things we a
talk about you wanted to share or?
P: Well, I just want to circle back on the idea that as people think about this interview
a I a a a , a a a ,
a ? A a a F a . A a a . Y a a a
your selfishness for the better good. He could have said to me as a law, as a young
lawyer, a a a , Pa , ,
not going to be able to do this for five more years. H a . H a
do it. Take your best shot. But it all flows from the top, okay? Any organization, the
nature, the mission statement of that organization flows from the top. Fortunately
we had Fred at the top of this organization, and it merged well with what my vision
a P a a a a a I
incredible things in this country and is continuing to do incredible things.
O: Y , I a a , a
up. Who are your favorite novelists and why? Well, oddly enough I think Steinbeck,
you know. Steinbeck understood, Steinbeck you know wrote about a time in this
country where people were struggling just to live. I mean it was an awful time. And
he and what he did is he captured heroes, you know Doc, you know Doc in Tortilla
Flats. T a a . H a a ,
like a hero, but did Doc accomplish. Doc made people in little ways just anyway he
could try to improve the lives of people. Steinbeck captures that element do we are
a , a ? A a . W and LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 24
Steinbeck if you really think about his themes would always round up on the idea
that as you give you receive. Think about all of his stories. As you give, you receive.
T a , a a a S a a . A
so that, that had a big impact on me. Had a huge impact. I mean To Kill a
Mockingbird. I mean my god that had a wonderful impact. It motivated me to do,
to write two books, three books, just about the notion of staying motivated as a
lawyer and doing the right thing as a lawyer and I learned a lot about our profession
because I said yeah I realize this is a fictional character but in truth it was actually
a a a a a a a A a a a. S a ,
how do you become inspired right?
O: Right. My wife and I are going to see the Broadway version
P: To Kill a Mockingbird?
O: With I believe Ed Harris.
P: Ed Harris is doing it, you know, yeah.
O: W a a .
P: Yeah.
O: Did you see the original one or the, it was with Jeff Bridges, I think?
P: I did not, and I want to go up and see Harris
O: Nice.
P: I was in, just a time when I was so pissy.
O: Yeah.
P: But I want to get up there and see that, yeah.
O: Y a , I a a . LEVN 015; Papantonio, Page 25
P: Y a . W , a , , a a
acts, they had such powerful theatre that were where one man acts when it was
Clarence Darrow, whether it was Marshall, whether it was Mark Twain, and the
reason I liked those is that it drilled right down to the heart of it. You, you ask, ask
a , a a S , I a
Steinbeck, what an interesting story that would be, you know.
O: Yeah, maybe Travels With Charlie or
P: Yeah, Travels With Charlie, exactly, exactly.
O: Yeah.
P: Well, I hope this helped you some.
O: Just wonderful, thank you, Mike I really appreciate it and I apologize for having to
do a do-over.
P: We talked a a , ?
O: Yeah, we did.
[End of interview]
Transcribed by: Carson Leigh Olson, September 18, 2020
Audit-edited by: Sandra Romero, October 5, 2020
Final edit by: Daniel J. Fernández Guevara, October 25, 2020