Wednesday Volume 585 10 September 2014 No. 36

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 10 September 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 889 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 890

Richard Burden: First, I welcome the Minister to his House of Commons place. When it seems pretty clear that the National Audit Office had some pretty damning conclusions Wednesday 10 September 2014 regarding the mismanagement of over £2 million of public money to the Big Society Network, and when, in my own constituency, the SWEET project, which got a The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock big society award, ends up having money cut by the Government because it does precisely the innovation PRAYERS work that it got the award for in the first place, what exactly, in this day and age, does the big society mean? While he is at it, will the Minister look into the circumstances [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] surrounding the cuts to the SWEET project?

BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS Mr Newmark: I shall certainly look into the matter that the hon. Member has asked me to. We welcome the QUEEN’S SPEECH (ANSWER TO ADDRESS) NAO’s report and have learned the lessons from this THE VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported experience. There are no conclusions that the Cabinet to the House, That Her Majesty, having been attended Office did anything untoward in this regard. All the with its Address of 4th June, was pleased to receive the report says is that we did not adhere to the guidance we same very graciously and give the following Answer: issued for this particular programme on a couple of I have received with great satisfaction the dutiful and points. loyal expression of thanks for the speech with which I opened the present Session of Parliament. Pat Glass: Is it true that the Prime Minister’s flagship Big Society Network is now being investigated by the ELECTORAL COMMISSIONERS charity commissioners over allegations of misuse of THE VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported Government funding and inappropriate payments to to the House, That the humble Address, praying that directors, including a Tory donor? Her Majesty will appoint Lord Horam and David Howarth as electoral commissioners for the period ending on Mr Newmark: This has been investigated and no 30 September 2018, was presented to Her Majesty, who evidence of impropriety has been found. was graciously pleased to comply with the request. Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): None of us could let that NEW WRIT go. Thanks to the National Audit Office’s report, we Ordered, now know that the Government’s big society lies in That the Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the tatters. We have since learned that the charity the Prime Crown to make out a new Writ for the electing of a Member to Minister personally launched at No. 10 Downing street serve in this present Parliament for the County constituency of is not only under investigation by the Charity Commission, Heywood and Middleton in the room of James Dobbin, deceased.— but is under investigation for moving Cabinet Office (Ms Winterton.) funding to its parent company, which is chaired by a major Conservative party donor who also earned hefty consultancy fees from it. Was the Cabinet Secretary Oral Answers to Questions aware that Government funding was being transferred not to the thousands of legitimate charities in this country, but to the bank account of a Conservative party donor? CABINET OFFICE Mr Newmark: This allegation has been investigated The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— by the grants manager, and appropriate action to recover Big Society Network any funds not spent in line with the grant agreement is being taken. 1. Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the implications for Political Activity (Charity Commission Guidance) his Department’s policies of the National Audit Office’s recent report on funding arrangements for the 2. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What assessment Big Society Network. [905293] he has made of the scope of the Charity Commission 3. Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): What guidance on campaigning and political activity; and if assessment he has made of the implications for his he will make a statement. [905294] Department’s policies of the National Audit Office’s recent report on funding arrangements for the Big The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Brooks Newmark): Society Network. [905295] Charities play an important role in shaping Government policy. Indeed, Departments are working on the The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Brooks Newmark): development and implementation of many our policies. I take this report seriously. I am satisfied that the issues However, it has long been the case that the law and raised concerned adherence to process, and therefore do Charity Commission guidance prohibits charities from not feel that there are any implications for the policies party political campaigning and activities. I believe that of my Department. that is the right position. 891 Oral Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 892

Charlie Elphicke: Does the Minister nevertheless agree Government Reform (Savings Programme) that it would be right to return to the Charity Commission guidance of 2004, which ensured that charities focused 4. Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): on social justice and helping people in need on the front What progress he has made on his programme to line, not on big marketing budgets and playing party achieve savings from greater efficiency in and reform of politics? central Government. [905296]

Mr Newmark: The Charity Commission’s guidance is The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster clear about what charities can and cannot do and General (Mr Francis Maude): On 10 June, my right hon. reflects the commission’s view of the underlying law. Friend the Chancellor and I announced savings through The guidance was last reviewed in 2009. The Charity efficiency reform of central Government of £14.3 billion Commission has said that it keeps all its guidance under for the last financial year, measured against a 2009-10 review to ensure that it remains relevant and up to date, baseline. These savings include both recurring and non- but it has no immediate plans to amend its guidance on recurring items, and include £5.4 billion from procurement campaigning and political activity. and commercial savings, £3.3 billion in project savings and £4.7 billion from work force reform and pension Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Since 1921 savings. the Royal British Legion has undertaken political campaigns for the benefit of military veterans and their families. Mike Freer: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for Will the charities Minister please affirm the right of that answer. Is he able to quantify the specific savings to charities to undertake political campaigning in line with the taxpayer from Government Departments and agencies their charitable objectives? If he cannot say that loud now being required to share buildings, rather than and clear, could he please get back to his knitting? having their own stand-alone premises?

Mr Newmark: I take the hon. Lady’s point and I was Mr Maude: We have got out of a huge number of expecting a question along those lines, so I have stitched properties. We have reduced our office estate by the together a response for her. Charities, with all their equivalent of 26 times the size of Buckingham palace, expertise, have long been at the forefront of helping to raising £1.4 billion in capital receipts and saving £625 million tackle some of the country’s biggest social challenges in running costs. Our One Public Estate programme, and have an important role to play in helping shape a which is working very closely with a number of local Government policy, but they must stay out of party authorities, is saving even more money and releasing politics, which has been a long-standing requirement by property for the private sector to create jobs and growth charity law—[Interruption.] Is the hon. Member for by local government, central Government and indeed Wigan (Lisa Nandy), who is chuntering, saying that her the wider public sector co-locating, which both saves party seeks to change the law? money and is more convenient for the public.

Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): I am grateful Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): to the Minister for his response and to my hon. Friend Cost-effectiveness is of course something that all of us the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) for tabling should aim for, but does the Minister agree that in the question. Was it not the Leader of the Opposition trying to achieve that it would be better if best practice who, when in government, commissioned the report was shared right across the United Kingdom, including that changed the Charity Commission guidelines, which Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland? are giving so many people so much concern? Mr Maude: We try to promulgate good practice as Mr Newmark: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, but best we can. We are, however, localists. We believe that I want to stick to the main point. Charities have enormous the wider public sector—those who have responsibility expertise and can contribute to shaping Government and are accountable for the way in which the wider policy. I want to make it clear that political campaigning public sector operates—must be responsible for their by charities is absolutely right, but it is important that own decisions. I have had very productive conversations they steer clear of party politics. with Ministers in the devolved Northern Ireland Government. There is much that we can learn from Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Over the past few each other, and much that we can gain, as in the One weeks it has been absolutely embarrassing to see a Public Estate programme, from working together. number of Conservative MPs come out of the woodwork and attack some of this country’s best charities. Would Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): Why has it not be better for the Minister and his team to get the Cabinet Office increased spending on consultants behind those charities and allow them to comment and and agency staff to over £50 million in the last year? campaign on issues relating to their work? Mr Maude: As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Mr Newmark: As I have made clear time and again, amount of money spent by the Government on consultants and as somebody who has spent more than 30 years of and contingent labour has been cut very dramatically his life in the voluntary and charity sector, I say that it is from the grossly swollen levels that we inherited from absolutely right that charities have the right to campaign the Government of whom he was a supporter. on the issues that they feel strongly about. The only [Interruption.] It will sometimes go up a little bit, and it point I have been making is that they should steer clear will sometimes come down a bit. of party politics. Campaigning is absolutely right and they must continue to do that. Jonathan Ashworth: Why? 893 Oral Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 894

Mr Maude: Actually, we sometimes need to get the leading the charge through the Public Services (Social right skills that do not exist in government, and by and Value) Act 2012, which contributes to the Government’s large we will make sure that we have the right skills ambition to reform public services to ensure that they available on the right terms. [Interruption.] I was grateful not only achieve maximum value for money but contribute to the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher), to their local communities. who is chuntering from a sedentary position, for the support he expressed for our efficiency and reform SMEs (Government Procurement) programme in a very robust speech earlier this week. 7. Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) Social Enterprises (Lab): What recent steps he has taken to remove barriers to small and medium-sized enterprises participating in 5. Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) government procurement. [905302] (Con): What progress he has made on providing support for social enterprises. [905299] The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Brooks Newmark): General (Mr Francis Maude): In response to the hon. We are committed to supporting social enterprises, and Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), I think that we are leading the world in growing the social investment my tie is at least as pink as yours, Mr Speaker. market to provide social enterprises with access to the The direct spend of central Government with SMEs finance and advice that they need. I am particularly increased from £3 billion in 2009-10 to £4.5 billion in pleased that we are working with Social Enterprise UK 2012-13. SMEs benefited from a further £4 billion in to deliver the first ever Social Saturday this Saturday to indirect spend though the supply chain. We are therefore encourage more people to buy from social enterprises. I well on track to deliver our ambition that 25% of would like to congratulate my hon. Friend’s constituent Government spend through the supply chain should be Sebastian Huempfer, who yesterday won the Prime with SMEs. However, we are still not satisfied, so we are Minister’s Points of Light award for his work with soap taking forward a number of the recommendations of recycling social enterprise CLEAN SL8. Lord Young of Graffham on creating an SME-friendly single market in, among other things, the Small Business, Nicola Blackwood: Oxfordshire is a hotbed of social Enterprise and Employment Bill. enterprise and tech expertise, as the Minister for Business and Enterprise discovered when he visited the outstanding Debbie Abrahams: I thank the Minister for his reply. social enterprise Oxford Launchpad at the Said Business However, with £36 billion owed to small businesses in School yesterday. Does the Minister for Civil Society late payments, will he ensure that the Small Business, agree that the middle-stage funding gap is acting as a Enterprise and Employment Bill requires companies to barrier to UK social tech achieving its full potential, demonstrate that they will pay all their suppliers promptly and that raising the cap on the social incubator fund is in order to be on the Government’s approved supplier the right response to this problem? list?

Mr Newmark: My hon. Friend makes an extremely Mr Maude: The hon. Lady is a doughty campaigner important point. We are working closely with key on this front and I commend her for it. The policy of stakeholders to ensure that social ventures can access central Government is to pay undisputed invoices within the support and finance that they need throughout the five days and to pass 30-day payment terms down the different stages of development. Following the support supply chain as a condition of contract. The situation is provided through the social incubator fund, there are therefore improving. We encourage our prime contractors now a number of opportunities for social ventures to to pay more quickly than the 30-day commitment on a access support. voluntary basis. We have tasked Departments with Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I managing their contracts in a way that ensures that that see that you are wearing a slightly pinkish tie today, happens. We also encourage SMEs that are not being Mr Speaker, but pinkness seems to be absent from the paid by the prime contractor sufficiently quickly to let Government Front Bench. Today is “wear it pink” day, us know so that we can investigate. which is the national campaign day for breast cancer. Public Service User Satisfaction Data Social enterprise is a very important sector and it is getting more important by the day. Has the Minister 8. Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): What progress seen the wonderful picture of Mrs Thatcher’s face with he has made on the commitment in the “Open Public Che Guevara’s beret, which launches the new manifesto Services” White Paper of July 2011 to publish public for the social enterprise sector? That is important, because service user satisfaction data on all providers from all it marks the conjunction of social enterprise, social sectors. [905303] enterprise investment and crowdfunding. We would be very grateful if he put his weight behind it. The Minister for Government Policy and Chancellor of Mr Speaker: The image is visible in Westminster the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr Oliver Letwin): I am delighted station and doubtless elsewhere, as I am sure the Minister to be able to tell the right hon. Gentleman that the is aware. progress in that incredibly important area has been considerable. The friends and family test, which is our Mr Newmark: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely main user feedback mechanism, is used in all hospitals right. When I was coming into Parliament, the image and maternity wards. By March 2015, it will be extended struck me as a cross-party approach to campaigning. to the rest of the NHS. It is already used in further We lead the way on social impact bonds. The UK is also education, it has been used in the National Citizen 895 Oral Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 896

Service since August and it will be used in Jobcentre As I have made abundantly clear, charities play an Plus from March next year. The intention is to roll it out important role in shaping a Government policy, and right across the public services. indeed, with their expertise, they should be doing that. What I made absolutely clear was that charities should Stephen Timms: I am heartened. The Government’s not get involved in party politics, because that is the law. Work programme is a good example of a public service where user satisfaction data would be extremely valuable, T2. [905270] Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) but the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has (Con): As part of our long-term economic plan, the steadfastly resisted their introduction. Will the Minister Government have disposed of more than 1,250 have another go at persuading the Secretary of State to properties since 2010. What is the Minister for the introduce the use of such data in that service? Cabinet Office doing to release more Government properties so that we can reduce costs and become Mr Letwin: I am grateful for that suggestion. I will more efficient? certainly talk to my right hon. Friend about it. He recently agreed to introduce the data in Jobcentre Plus Mr Maude: As I said earlier, we have already reduced and we have had to work through the details of that. I our office estate by the huge amount of 2 million square will certainly open discussions with him about the Work metres since 2010, the equivalent of 26 times the size of programme and will have discussions about other Buckingham palace. The strategic land and property programmes across the rest of Government. review being led by my officials in the Government Property Unit will enable sites worth at least £5 billion, Topical Questions and potentially much more, to be released over the next five or six years. T1. [905268] Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): If he will make a statement on his departmental T3. [905271] Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): responsibilities. Small businesses in my constituency have long since given up trying to jump through the hoops that they The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster face in even bidding for Government contracts. They General (Mr Francis Maude): My responsibilities are certainly do not recognise the description that the efficiency and reform, civil service issues, the public Minister gave of the opportunities for Government sector industrial relations strategy, Government procurement. Is not the truth that despite all his talk, transparency, civil contingencies, civil society and cyber- it is almost impossible for small businesses to get security. Government contracts?

Gareth Johnson: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend Mr Maude: In that case, it is remarkable that the for that statement. Does he agree that, contrary to some amount of Government business being given to small suggestions that have been made, the chief executive of and medium-sized businesses has risen to nearly 20% the civil service will be best placed to accelerate the pace and is on course to rise even higher. Under the arrangements of reforms in the civil service in this country? left in place by the Government whom the hon. Gentleman supported, a lot of small businesses were simply frozen Mr Maude: We do believe that the new post will play out because the process was so bureaucratic and clunking a vital role in embedding the programme of efficiency that they could not even get into the starting gate, let reform that we have driven. I appreciate the support of alone have a chance of winning the race. Now they can, Labour Front Benchers for that approach, so that there and increasingly they do. will be consistency whatever the result of any election. He—or the new chief executive officer, whether a he or T5. [905273] Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Will a she—will work closely with the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister join me in congratulating Cheshire myself in supporting the performance management of Community Development Trust on the work it does to permanent secretaries, but will also line manage the help the people of Weaver Vale to get into work? Does heads of the cross-Government corporate functions. he agree that that is exactly the sort of social action That will increase the focus on driving efficiency. that should be used as a template to unite communities across the country? Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab): Last week, the Minister for Civil Society made his first, stunning Mr Newmark: I am delighted that my hon. Friend has intervention as the new Minister responsible for charities highlighted the important work that Cheshire Community by saying: Development Trust does to support people in Weaver “The important thing charities should be doing is sticking to Vale. Through our social action work, we are supporting their knitting”. communities across the country to take a more active When so many charities and people who work for them role in shaping their neighbourhoods and working together do such a magnificent job in every part of the country, for the good of others. was that not the most condescending, patronising, inept, out-of-touch and just plain wrong thing for the Minister T4. [905272] Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): On to say? Will he finally now apologise? user satisfaction data, does the Minister accept that the Public Accounts Committee was right to say that Hon. Members: Resign! the position is currently far short of the ambitions in the White Paper? How long will it be before user The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Brooks Newmark): satisfaction data are published for all services and all Already? providers? 897 Oral Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 898

The Minister for Government Policy and Chancellor of Mr Hague: This is a basic issue of fairness. For the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr Oliver Letwin): The right someone who lived in private rented accommodation hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and so was the and received housing benefit, these rules applied throughout Public Accounts Committee, to say that we need to go the whole of the last Labour Government, and we had a much further. The ambition is to cover all public services. situation in which neighbouring households could be I am currently conducting a review of the complaints treated unequally. The hon. Lady asked about the private procedures across Government to see how we can mine Member’s Bill. The proposals in that Bill could cost the them for user satisfaction data. I hope that that, combined country up to £1 billion. Because we have introduced a with the expansion of the friends and family test, will cap on overall spending, making those changes would lead to increasing fulfilment of our ambition, but the mean finding savings elsewhere. I have not heard any House should be in no doubt that it will take some time suggestions on that from the Labour party. to fulfil it completely. Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Assuming T6. [905274] Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) there is a no vote in the Scottish referendum, who in the (Con): In the previous financial year more than £85 Government will represent England in the new devolution million was spent by the taxpayer on full-time trade settlement? Who speaks for England, because we need a union representatives. Is that a fair figure, and what is voice and a new deal? the Minister doing to reduce it? Mr Hague: Well, there are many of us. Having Mr Maude: At the time of the last general election represented Yorkshire for 25 years, I can claim to speak there was no monitoring whatsoever of the volume of for England from time to time—Yorkshiremen are always taxpayer-funded trade union facility time in the civil keen to speak for a far bigger area than they represent. service. We now have controls in place that saved £23 million All these debates are to be had once the referendum is last year, and we have already reduced the number of concluded. full-time taxpayer-funded union officials from 200 in May 2010 to fewer than 10 this summer. Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his words about our good friend and colleague Jim Dobbin, and add my PRIME MINISTER tribute to him after his sudden and tragic death at the weekend. He was, as has been said, a thoroughly decent man who always stuck to his principles. At a time when The Prime Minister was asked— it is fashionable to say that politicians are in it for Engagements themselves and out of touch, he was the absolute opposite of that. Our deepest sympathies are with Pat and their Q1. [905278] Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and children, and we will miss him greatly. Sunderland West) (Lab): If he will list his official “Historic” is a much overused word in politics, but engagements for Wednesday 10 September. does the right hon. Gentleman agree that in just eight days’ time the people of Scotland will make a truly The First Secretary of State and Leader of the House historic decision? This is their vote, but I want the of Commons (Mr William Hague): I have been asked to message from the Labour Benches to be heard loud and reply on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Prime clear: we want Scotland to stay. Minister, who is with the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in Scotland today to Mr Hague: I agree with the right hon. and learned listen and talk to voters about the huge choice they face. Lady. That is a clear message from the Opposition and, Their message to the Scottish people is simple: from the despite our differing political perspectives, from the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, we Government parties as well. I hope, therefore, that want you to stay in the United Kingdom. the message the people of Scotland will hear from the I join the Prime Minister in the tribute he paid on House, where Scottish parliamentarians have made an Monday to Jim Dobbin who died at the weekend. He immense contribution for generations, is that we want was a proud Scot, and a hard-working and principled to stay together and cannot imagine life on these isles parliamentarian who was respected on both sides of the without them. She is a London MP and speaks for House. He will be very sadly missed, and I know that millions in what she just said; I am a Yorkshire MP who the thoughts of the whole House are with his family has served as Secretary of State for Wales, and we are and friends. all proud to be British, combining those identities. This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues There is no doubt we would all be diminished if Scotland and others, and in addition to my duties in this House I was separated from the people of the rest of the UK. shall have further such meetings later today. Ms Harman: The roots of our party run deep in Mrs Hodgson: I join the Leader of the House in Scotland. We delivered devolution and the Scottish paying tribute to our very good friend Jim Dobbin. He Parliament, but we need to go further. Will the right was a kind and thoroughly decent man and will be hon. Gentleman confirm that there will be further sorely missed. Our thoughts and prayers are with his devolution and that a Scotland Bill setting out new wife Pat and their family. powers will be published in January? The bedroom tax is discriminatory, damaging, and it is not even working. Last Friday the House was very Mr Hague: As the right hon. and learned Lady clear. Will the Government now listen? Will they scrap knows, the three main party leaders have come together that wretched policy, because if they will not, we will? to agree to develop a programme for change. The right 899 Oral Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 900 hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) “Uncertainty surrounds a number of vital issues including has set out a process for how that change could be currency, regulation, tax, pensions, EU membership and support delivered to a tight timetable, and all three main parties for our exports around the world; and uncertainty is bad for have endorsed that timetable. It means immediate action business.” the day after the referendum to start the legislative The Governor of the Bank of England said yesterday process; it means a Command Paper, including proposals, that sovereignty and a currency union were “incompatible”, at the end of October, with a full draft Scotland Bill and he is right—many of us have pointed that out for published by the end of January; and it means the many years in relation to another currency. Be certain introduction of a Bill after the general election, regardless of this: this is not an opinion poll where you can change of who forms the Government. That is a clear timetable your mind the next day; it is not an election where you and it shows that Scots can have change without irreversible can reverse the result four or five years later; it is a separation and without such risks to jobs and their permanent decision that will affect generations. Therefore, future. the votes cast next Thursday will probably be the most important votes that can be cast in any country at any Ms Harman: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for time, and the voters must weigh that vote heavily. the clarity of that answer. As we set about devolving further powers to Scotland, does he agree that the time has also come to devolve further power to Wales and, Ms Harman: While jobs, pensions and taxes are crucially, to the great cities and regions of England too? important, next week’s decision, as the right hon. Gentleman rightly says, is about much, much more than that. For Mr Hague: As we all know, the decision next week is sure, there must be change. We must have that, and we a matter for the people of Scotland, but the implications will, but not by tearing this country apart. We must stay will be felt by all the people of the United Kingdom. We as family, not become foreigners to each other. are already steadily devolving increased powers to parts of England and Wales. Under this Government, Wales has received more primary law-making powers and we Mr Hague: The right hon. and learned Lady puts it are moving towards devolving tax and borrowing powers. extremely well. We all want the best for Scotland, just as We want to see devolution in Northern Ireland succeed. we all want the best for our own constituents, from all In England, the Localism Act 2011 devolved power parts of the UK, in this House. The people of England, over business rates to local authorities, and city deals Wales and Northern Ireland believe that Scotland is have given local areas more of a say over their governance. better off in the UK and the UK is better off with One of the greatest strengths of the United Kingdom is Scotland in it. This referendum is the most important that it is not a rigid union; it is a living, flexible union. choice the people of Scotland will ever make: a choice between the opportunity and security of staying in the Ms Harman: For Labour Members, a fundamental UK, and leaving for ever, without the pound and without principle of our politics is solidarity. We want the UK the UK’s influence in the world. With Scotland as part to stick together in the cause of social justice. Does the of the UK, we have the best possible situation and a right hon. Gentleman agree that it is wrong to set the great future together in the United Kingdom. different countries of the UK against each other, whether on workers’ rights or corporation tax? Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Since 2012, my right hon. Friend and I have been supporting Mr Hague: The right hon. and learned Lady makes a the policy of the Government not to offer so-called powerful point about solidarity in the UK. For 300 years, devo-max as a consolation prize in the event of a no we and our predecessors have sat in the House with vote in the Scottish referendum. If this is no longer the Scottish parliamentarians and their predecessors. Since policy of the Government, when and why did it change, the 18th century, they have sat together to implement a and what opportunity has there been for this House to great range of progressive causes, from the abolition of express its view? the slave trade to our pursuit of human rights and sound development across the world today. We have often led the way at times of world crisis and been an Mr Hague: It has been the policy of the Government inspiration to democratic peoples elsewhere. The next for some time to be open to further devolution—I gave 300 years could easily be as turbulent and dangerous as examples of what we have done in Wales, for instance, the last 300 years, so to tear apart a union so proven, so during the lifetime of this Government. The statements precious and so valuable would be a tragic mistake for by the party leaders made on this in the last few days are all our peoples. statements by party leaders in a campaign—not a statement of Government policy today, but a statement of Ms Harman: People in Scotland can now be certain commitment from the three main political parties, akin that with a no vote, there would be change and more to statements by party leaders in a general election powers for Scotland. Does the right hon. Gentleman campaign of what they intend to do afterwards. It is on agree that posed against that certainty is the uncertainty that basis that they have made those statements. that a yes vote would bring on so many issues, including jobs, pensions, mortgages and the currency? Q2. [905279] Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) Mr Hague: The uncertainty it would bring is impossible (Lab): In 2012, the Chancellor set himself a target to to list in answer to one question, but a letter signed last double exports to £1 trillion by 2020. I wonder whether week by more than 120 job creators from across a range the Leader of the House would confirm that his of Scottish business concluded that the business case Government are on course to miss that target by a for independence had not been made. It said: massive £330 billion. 901 Oral Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 902

Mr Hague: Of course, nobody can claim to know Q4. [905281] Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): what the figure will be in 2020, since we are only in Embracing three centuries, the garrison town of 2014. A great deal of work has to be done, but we have Colchester has welcomed thousands of Scottish soldiers, greatly intensified the promotion of British exports. many with their families. We wish that to continue. That is why I, in my time as Foreign Secretary, opened Does the Leader of the House agree with the Defence nearly 20 new embassies and consulates, including many Select Committee that if Scotland ceased to be part of that the Labour party closed when it was in power, and the UK—and we have the best armed forces in Europe—this why we have revamped UK Trade & Investment. We would pose serious security and defence risks for a have huge increases in exports to countries such as separate Scotland without the capacity to defend itself? China, India and Brazil. Everybody, of all parties and businesses, must join in making a success of that by Mr Hague: My hon. Friend makes an extremely 2020. important point. He sees the participation, work and sacrifices of members of the armed forces from Scotland Q3. [905280] Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): My right when they are deployed in Colchester, and I see that in hon. Friend the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Catterick garrison in my own constituency. He makes Minister and the Leader of the Opposition are rightly an important point about the security of us all, which is campaigning today for the future of our Union. With of course important for Scotland’s security as well. We Gatwick in my constituency, I see on a daily basis the have to bear it in mind that, for instance, Her Majesty’s strong family and business links between my local Naval Base Clyde is the largest employment site in the airport and Scottish airports. Does my right hon. whole of Scotland, and it is going to get bigger with the Friend the Leader of the House agree with me that our deployment of all our submarines there. Those things great kingdom is better together as a united Britain? I are put at risk by a campaign for separation, which also say that as somebody with proud Scottish ancestry. puts at risk the security of all of us.

Mr Hague: Yes, I absolutely agree with my hon. Q5. [905282] Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) Friend. What he can see at Gatwick airport and what (Lab): Last Thursday, I attended a public meeting at we all experience around other parts of England and Beighton in my constituency, at which the doctors in Wales is a very good example of his point. In fact, two the Beighton and Sothall practice were consulting their thirds of Scottish exports are exported to the rest of the patients on how to deal with a budgetary cut of 22% to United Kingdom—twice as much as to the rest of the 24% by 2018. They have been officially notified of that world put together. Why would anyone choose to place cut by NHS England. Will the Leader of the House an international border where those exports are going, confirm that, if the Conservatives are in power after and to do so unnecessarily? My hon. Friend makes a the general election, these are the cuts that my very powerful point. constituents can expect? Mr Hague: I can confirm that this Government have Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): raised the NHS budget in line with inflation, which the The Leader of the House is, of course, right: next hon. Gentleman’s party was not committed to doing at Thursday, the Scots go the polls to make what is the last general election. I know that the Secretary of undoubtedly the most historic, important and momentous State for Health will want to discuss with the hon. decision we have ever had the privilege to consider. It is Gentleman the details of the local situation, but I hope a process that has galvanised and energised every he explained to those at the meeting that overall, since community in Scotland. Will the Leader of the House the last election, the number of nurses is up 3,700; the join me—I know we want different things from the number of doctors is up 6,500; the number of people outcome—in congratulating the Scottish people on the who say they are treated with dignity and respect is up way they have gone around conducting this incredible 10%; and that we have now been ranked, according to debate? the Commonwealth Fund, as the top health system in the world, moving from seventh in the world four years Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman is right: it was a ago. gentle understatement that we want different things from this process, but of course we applaud the people Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): Will my of Scotland for taking such an immense interest on all right hon. Friend applaud the initiative of Prince Harry sides, and it is very important that there is a high in creating the Invictus games, and welcome all the turnout in any such referendum. I absolutely congratulate participants to this country on our behalf? the people of Scotland, but I do not congratulate those such as the hon. Gentleman’s own party who have failed Mr Hague: Absolutely. This is an extremely important to be straight with the people of Scotland; who have continuation of the developing, immense and proud never explained what money Scotland will use and what sporting history that we have in this country. We are its value will be; who have never explained how long it now established again as one of the great sporting would take to rejoin the European Union and on what nations of the world, and we are also a country that terms; who have never explained how they would fund thinks deeply about the welfare of service veterans. His schools and hospitals when there would be a £6 billion Royal Highness Prince Harry has been one of the great black hole in their finances; and who have not explained champions of that, and we wish him, and everyone that their threat not to pay debts would be disastrous involved in the games, very well. for Scotland’s long-term future. They are passionate about Scotland and passionate about separation, but Q6. [905283] Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/ they are not passionate about telling the truth to the Co-op): In 2012, the Prime Minister said that he wanted people of Scotland. to see economic growth that would mean rising living 903 Oral Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 904 standards for all. Can the Leader of the House tell us, Mr Hague: Yes, I do. That is another very good point. then, why Britain has seen one of the largest falls in real The economic turnaround that has been brought about wages among the European Union countries, beaten in the United Kingdom means that employment in only by Cyprus, Portugal and Greece? Scotland is now at a record high. There have been seven consecutive quarters of economic growth in Scotland, Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman may remember that and there are a quarter of a million more private sector there was a debt-fuelled, deep recession, which came jobs in Scotland than there were four years ago. That is about under the last Government. That, of course, has a reminder of the potential if we continue to work to be paid for, but now, after four years of the disciplined together, and that is the message that I again repeat to policies of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the the people of Scotland today. Exchequer, we have the fastest growth among the G7 economies, we have employment nearing a record high, Q9. [905286] Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): and we have nearly 2 million new apprenticeships which I welcome suggestions that the Prime Minister will have been started during this time. That is a remarkable attend the crucial climate summit at the end of this economic turnaround from the catastrophic situation month. Will the Leader of the House confirm that the that we were left. Prime Minister will go, and will he tell us what bold new initiatives the Prime Minister will be taking with Q7. [905284] Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Does him, because that is what my constituents in Brighton the Leader of the House agree that Scottish independence say they want? They want to protect what they is not about getting one over on Westminster, not about love—[Interruption.] They want urgent action on embarrassing the Prime Minister or the Leader of the climate change. Opposition and not about defeating the “auld enemy”, Mr Speaker: Order. Can I just say for future reference but it is about Scotland turning its back on 300 years of that it is disorderly to display images in that way, and I successful union, and rejecting so much that this country say with all courtesy to the hon. Lady, whose principles has done to make us all so proud of being part of Great and commitment I respect, that if everybody did that Britain? on every cause it would make a mockery of this place? I ask the hon. Lady to take a view much wider than her Mr Hague: My hon. Friend is right. It is not about own immediate preoccupation. any individual or party or election; it is a far more long-term decision than that. In my experience all over Mr Hague: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister the world, other nations regard the United Kingdom will attend the UN General Assembly later in September. with admiration, and sometimes even with envy. If We have not yet issued, or finally decided, his precise Scotland voted yes, people all over the world who share schedule, but of course we are looking at attendance at our values and count on our contribution to peace, the meeting the hon. Lady refers to, and Britain will stability and human rights would be disappointed, while continue to play a leading role in the world in bringing those who do not share those priorities and beliefs about legally binding agreement on climate change. The would be quietly satisfied. That is another thing that we next 15 months is a very important period, leading up must all bear in mind. to the meeting in Paris at the end of next year. We are one of the most active countries in the world in climate Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): At the end of change diplomacy, and the Prime Minister and other last month, my constituent Mr Krishna Upadhyaya was Ministers in New York will be fully conveying that, “disappeared” in Qatar. He had been arrested by the whoever attends the meeting. secret service there because he was investigating the human rights abuses of workers who were building Mr Keith Simpson (Broadland) (Con): Will my right the infrastructure for the 2022 World cup. I thank the hon. Friend explain to the House why, with the possibility Foreign Office for its help in securing his release, but of a yes vote, finance is leaving Scotland and many what action will the right hon. Gentleman take to speak businesses are thinking of leaving Scotland? Surely if to the Qatar ambassador about the disgrace of his the economic arguments were so good for the yes campaign, having been arrested in the first place, and about the the reverse would be happening? treatment of those who are preparing those facilities? Mr Hague: My hon. Friend makes a very powerful point. The anxieties of businesses are very clear to see. Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman has raised an important While we can understand people doubting the word of case. He is right to say that the Foreign Office has politicians about economic events, it is very important pursued it and has achieved some success in doing so, as to listen to what businesses say they will do with their we will do in any parallel cases in the future. I know that jobs, with their headquarters and with their investments, the embassy and the Foreign Office will want to follow because a country that has separated itself from the up these matters, but that is for my successor as Foreign fastest growing economy of the G7, that has put itself Secretary to determine, so I will draw his attention to outside the European Union without thinking about the hon. Gentleman’s question, and ask him to write to the implications of doing that, and that has ended up the hon. Gentleman about it. with no central bank and unsure which currency to use, would of course find it difficult to attract new business Q8. [905285] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Given to its shores. mounting evidence of an innovative, vibrant and growing real economy, especially in manufacturing and engineering, Q10. [905287] Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) does the First Secretary of State agree that Scotland (SDLP): The Transatlantic Trade and Investment should remain with us, first to share in the fruits of that Partnership leaves the health service vulnerable to some success and secondly to give us a bigger footprint in of the worst possible outcomes of this Government’s global trade? privatisation programme. Private investors will be able 905 Oral Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 906 to haul the Government and devolved Administrations beautifully, including his identity with the United Kingdom. through the investor-state dispute settlement tribunal. That is how so many of us think in Britain, and let us In that respect, how can the Leader of the House hope that it will be possible to continue to do so. guarantee that the health service, including the health services in the devolved Administrations, will be Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): May I exempt from the TTIP? support the visit of the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition to Mr Hague: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of speak directly to the people of Scotland? My right hon. State for Business, Innovation and Skills has been dealing and hon. Friends and I, speaking on behalf of the vast with these matters and has held a briefing about them, majority of the people of Northern Ireland, want the so I have no doubt we can furnish the hon. Lady with United Kingdom to stay together, and it is my hope that more details on these issues, but it is very important to some of those who are crowing today might be disappointed maintain a commitment to free trade, which has been a after the referendum. characteristic of the United Kingdom over many centuries, and which has invariably brought greater prosperity to Mr Hague: That is certainly my hope as well. I am the people of the UK, as well as to people all over the pleased that the hon. Gentleman has been able to make rest of the world. The TTIP is another major opportunity that point, because it means that in this short Question to boost free trade across the world. Time we have heard the very clear message from Members from England, Wales and Northern Ireland to the people Q11. [905288] Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): of Scotland that we want them to stay. A vote next week in favour of an independent Scotland will have major, damaging implications for Wales. Does Q13. [905290] Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): My my right hon. Friend agree that my fellow Welsh parents will soon celebrate their 60th wedding citizens who care about the future of our Welsh nation anniversary. My mother was born in Aberdeen, and my should be hoping and praying for rejection of the father in Cambridge. Is my right hon. Friend reassured break-up of the United Kingdom? that there will be no need for any senior politicians to come to their anniversary event, because my parents Mr Hague: Yes, absolutely, and I think they are. I know in their heads and in their hearts that in their regularly consult at least one Welsh citizen, and on the union, as in the other Union, they are happier and evidence of that the Welsh are very much hoping and better together? praying that the UK will not be broken up. My hon. Friend, I know, speaks very well for his constituents in Mr Hague: I extend the congratulations of Her Majesty’s mid-Wales. All of us in the United Kingdom would be Government, and indeed of the whole House of Commons diminished by the break-up of the United Kingdom. and all the political parties—even, perhaps, the Scottish We are something greater than the sum of our parts, National party on this occasion—to my hon. Friend’s and that is well understood across the UK. The impact parents. They are an example to us all, particularly after on Wales would be unmistakable. 60 years, and I hope that it is an example that will continue to be heeded and respected all over the UK. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): The Patients Association has found that six in 10 people Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): cannot get a GP appointment within two days of needing Contrary to what has been said by the hon. Member for one. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why his Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), this campaign party will not support Labour’s proposal to guarantee a has been fraught by fear and intimidation. It is somewhat GP appointment within 48 hours? ironic that the majority of the Scottish separatists have turned out for today’s Question Time, given that fewer Mr Hague: Professionals in the health system have than half of them turned out for our debate on an said that going back to that kind of target would be important element of welfare reform last Friday. That counter-productive. The hon. Gentleman knows very demonstrates that their priority is to come here to well that the number of people treated by GPs has whinge rather than to debate. increased by many millions over the past four years, and that trend is continuing. Of course we are always trying Mr Hague: I do not need to add anything to the hon. to seek further improvements, but reintroducing the Gentleman’s description of the Scottish National party. old, failed targets of the last Government is not the way forward. Q14. [905291] Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): My Scottish pro-Union friends have reminded me that Q12. [905289] Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): the middle east peace envoy and GQ philanthropist of When I travel abroad and I am asked where I come the year award winner has reportedly said that he from, I am proud to say that I am British. Does my welcomes the publication of the Chilcot report. Will right hon. Friend agree that we can be proud to be my right hon. Friend tell the House when we can expect British but still have our own identity of being English, that report to be published? Scottish, Welsh or from Northern Ireland, and that we should all remain together and continue as Great Mr Hague: I can tell my hon. Friend that the work Britons? continues, and that Sir John Chilcot has said that he intends to publish the report as soon as possible. I do Mr Hague: I do not think anyone could have put it not have a fixed date that I can give to my hon. Friend. I better. My hon. Friend definitely has his own identity, can only observe that, had that inquiry been set up in so many different ways, and he has expressed it when I and others first called for it and voted for it, 907 Oral Answers 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 908 back in 2006, it would have reported long ago. It was set Mr Hague: To put that into perspective, I think the up late, and it is therefore reporting late, but we look latest figure is that 98.5% of schools are now providing forward to it. a hot meal to infants as they were intended to do, and it is going up all the time. There are, of course, Government Q15. [905292] Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): funds to help schools that need new facilities to do that, Is it acceptable for young people to be fed takeaway so I think it would be right to welcome the entirety of pizza at lunchtime because the Government have failed the picture, rather than try to find fault with one small to prepare schools properly for the introduction of free aspect of it. nutritious meals? 909 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 910

BILLS PRESENTED Specialist Printing Equipment and Materials (Offences) MOBILE PHONES AND OTHER DEVICES CAPABLE OF CONNECTION TO THE INTERNET (DISTRIBUTION OF Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order SEXUALLY EXPLICIT IMAGES AND MANUFACTURERS’ No. 23) ANTI-PORNOGRAPHY DEFAULT SETTING)BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) 12.36 pm Geraint Davies, supported by Jessica Morden, Mrs Siân Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I beg to C. James, Chris Evans, Mr Mark Williams and Nia move, Griffith, presented a Bill to prohibit the distribution of That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for an sexually explicit images via the internet and text message offence in respect of specialist printing equipment and related without the consent of the subjects of the images; to materials; and for connected purposes. provide that mobile phones and other devices capable This Bill is an important step in tackling identity of connection to the internet be set by manufacturers as crime. Such crime enables criminals at all levels, from a default to deny access to pornography; and for connected opportunistic criminals to those involved in immigration purposes. offences, serious organised crime and terrorism, to hide their tracks and evade detection. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 7 November, and to be printed (Bill 92). Everybody knows someone who has been a victim of identity crime in one form or another, and we are all at HOUSE OF COMMONS MEMBERS’FUND BILL risk of becoming victims. Indeed, figures published by the National Fraud Authority last year show that almost Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) a third of UK adults have been a victim of such crime at Mr Peter Lilley, supported by Mr Clive Betts, Mr Brian some point. Of the 4.3 million people who were victims H. Donohoe, David Mowat and John Thurso, presented in 2012, 2.7 million actually lost money, with an average a Bill to consolidate and amend provisions about the of £1,200 lost by each person. For the most vulnerable House of Commons Members’ Fund. members of our society the damage caused goes much further than the loss of money. The NFA also estimates Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on that 27% of UK adults have been a victim of such Friday 17 October, and to be printed (Bill 91). fraud. None of us is immune from this crime; Jeremy Clarkson, Oprah Winfrey and Steven Spielberg have all reportedly been victims. As criminals seek to stay ahead of the game by obtaining the latest specialist technology to make false documents, they rely on members of the specialist printing industry to supply it to them. They obtain it either by tricking suppliers into thinking they will use the equipment for a legitimate purpose or by looking for someone to collude with them. The industry is aware of elements within it that knowingly supply equipment or materials to these criminals, for criminal purposes, believing that they are beyond the reach of the law. The Bill sends the message that they are as bad as the criminals themselves. It closes a very sad gap in the law and will support our police in their work. By supplying this equipment to persons who will use it to commit crime, these elements enable some of the most serious crimes that affect our country and the safety of our people to happen. The police have numerous recent examples of illegal document factories being uncovered. The documents found include passports, driving licences, birth certificates, immigration documents, European Union identity cards and national insurance number cards—the list goes on. In none of these cases has the police been able to prosecute anyone who has supplied the specialist equipment to the criminals, even when there was evidence that they knew what the equipment would be used for. That is why the Bill is urgently needed. The industry and the Metropolitan Police Service set up Project Genesis in 2007 and identified the need for this new criminal offence. Wider consultation on the proposal with the industry shows that there continues to be strong support for it. The vast majority of the industry is made up of decent, hard-working people who believe that those who knowingly supply equipment to criminals are bringing their industry into disrepute. 911 Specialist Printing Equipment and 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Specialist Printing Equipment and 912 Materials (Offences) Materials (Offences) [Mr David Amess] The geographical extent of the Bill will be for England and Wales. The Home Office is working with the devolved The industry mainly consists of small micro-businesses, Administrations in Scotland and Northern Ireland and which can suffer significant losses themselves when they the Crown dependencies on these measures and has are targeted by fraudsters. Criminals who make false committed to keep them informed of progress. False documents often try to dupe businesses into supplying document factories are a cross-border problem, so the this specialist equipment to them and often pay with Bill will apply to supply for the purpose of criminal stolen credit cards resulting in a loss to the supplier. activity occurring in any jurisdiction. If a supplier in One company reported losing £10,000 worth of equipment England and Wales sells equipment to an identity fraudster because fraudsters conned it by using what appeared to knowing that they will use it to manufacture false be genuine credentials. By implementing the measures documents, they will be prosecuted, whether the in the code of conduct agreed by Project Genesis, that manufacture itself happens in England, Scotland, France, business was able to protect itself from becoming the or even Australia. victim of payment fraud again as it was better able to The Metropolitan Police Service has examples of spot suspicious behaviour. The measures include simple raids on false document factories where documents indicators such as checking that the delivery address is relating to thousands of false identities have been found. the same as the address on a company’s website, so that But in none of those raids have they been able to a fraudster is identified if they pretend to represent a prosecute those at the beginning of the chain who legitimate company. supplied the goods to the fraudsters, even though the The Bill covers the manufacture of documents that suppliers knew that those would be used to make false can be used for identity purposes, including passports documents. and immigration documents; travel documents, including The Bill will empower the police to deal effectively driving licences and blue badges; security passes; national with those who seek to profit from criminal activity insurance number cards; currency; credit cards; and without regard to the consequences of identity crime. birth, death and marriage certificates. Those are documents I commend the measure to the House. that provide the holder with access to various services Question put and agreed to. and benefits across both the public and private sectors. Ordered, In the wrong hands, false versions of those documents can cause untold damage, including enabling illegal That Mr David Amess, Mr Brian Binley, Fiona Bruce, immigrants to merge into our society and fraudulently Rosie Cooper, Mr Roger Godsiff, Sir Edward Leigh, access public services to which they are not entitled. Dr Julian Lewis, Mr David Nuttall, Sir Bob Russell, Crime committed through the use of false documents Dame Angela Watkinson, Mike Weatherley and Mr Mark can have a serious impact on businesses, particularly Williams present the Bill. small businesses, which can seriously impact on the Mr David Amess accordingly presented the Bill. economy. The Bill provides a simple and targeted measure Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on to deal with this serious problem. Friday 12 September, and to be printed (Bill 93). 913 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 914 and Security Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa situation. Those multiple challenges reflect an arc of and Security instability, extending from north Africa, through the middle east and along Europe’s eastern border to the [Relevant documents: Eleventh Report from the European Arctic. Scrutiny Committee, Ukraine and Russia: EU restrictive Perhaps the most alarming of those developments, measures, HC 219-xi; Third Report from the Defence because of the clear and immediate risk it poses to UK Committee, Towards the next Defence and Security Review: homeland security, is the rise of the Islamist terror Part Two–NATO, HC 358; Fourteenth Report from the organisation ISIL in Syria and Iraq. In Syria, Assad’s Defence Committee, Session 2013-14, Intervention: Why, brutal war against his own people has created the When and How?, HC 952, together with the Government conditions for a Sunni extremist group to flourish, and response, Fourth Special Report, Session 2014-15, HC 581; in Iraq, the systematic sectarianism of the previous Seventh Report from the Foreign Affairs Committee, Government has created a permissive environment in Session 2013-14, HC 86-I, The UK’s response to extremism the Sunni heartlands for ISIL to expand. In both countries, and instability in North and West Africa, and the Government ISIL has seized the opportunity to impose its twisted response, Cm 8861; Uncorrected transcript of oral evidence ideology. taken before the Foreign Affairs Committee on 3 September 2014, Russia and Ukraine, HC 628; and Uncorrected Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Does transcript of oral evidence taken before the Foreign Affairs the Foreign Secretary agree that supporting air strikes Committee on 9 September 2014, Developments in UK in Syria is a higher-risk strategy than supporting air foreign policy, HC 606.] strikes in Iraq? Mr Speaker: Before I ask the Foreign Secretary to open the debate, I simply point out to the House that Mr Hammond: I agree with my hon. Friend. There is more than 50 right hon. and hon. Members wish to a qualitative difference between any proposition of air speak from the Back Benches. In determining a time strikes in Syria and such an activity in Iraq. The legal, limit for Back-Bench contributions, I shall obviously be technical and military differences make the proposition guided by the length of the Front-Bench speeches, of air strikes an order of magnitude more complicated which I feel sure the speakers, with their usual tact and in Syria. discretion, will tailor in order to take account of the interests of their Back-Bench colleagues. Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab) rose—

12.45 pm Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con) rose— The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): I beg to move, Mr Hammond: I will take one more intervention. That this House has considered Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa and security. Mark Pritchard: I am grateful to my right hon. This summer has seen a range and scale of threats to Friend for giving way. On the specifics of air strikes, the international, and particularly European, stability. If House will rise this week and not return until 13 October. they are not unprecedented, they certainly represent a If there were to be another atrocity in Iraq, is he highly unwelcome escalation from the post-cold war comfortable with authorising, with the Prime Minister, norm. Alongside them, there has been a sharp escalation air strikes if the House has not had a vote? in the level of homeland security threat. The Prime Minister has made two statements in the past nine days Mr Hammond: If my hon. Friend will allow me, I will covering those, but the Government believe it is right come specifically to the question of air strikes and their and proper that Parliament has a fuller opportunity to authorisation later in my speech. debate those events, and that the Government have the opportunity to take the pulse of parliamentary opinion Ms Gisela Stuart rose— on Britain’s response to the challenges we face. In Syria and Iraq, the advance of the barbaric Islamist Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab) rose— terrorist organisation Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant represents not only a severe threat to the stability Mr Hammond: I will take one more intervention and of the middle east but, through the presence of foreign then I must make some progress. fighters, some of them British, and the threat of a terror attack against the west, a threat to British national Ms Gisela Stuart: Will the Foreign Secretary elaborate security. In the wider middle east, the recent eruption of on the military differences, as he said that there were violence in Gaza between Israel and Hamas, and the quantitative differences between Syria and Iraq? We are tragic loss of many hundreds of civilian lives, has talking about a process. What are the air strikes meant underlined the need for a lasting settlement to that to achieve? Would they achieve something different in decades-long source of conflict and human suffering. Iraq from in Syria, or are we taking this the wrong way In eastern Ukraine, the instability and violence fuelled round? initially by covert Russian sponsorship of illegal armed separatists, and more recently by the active operation of Mr Hammond: When I talked about a military difference formed military units of the Russian armed forces on between Iraq and Syria, I was referring to the different sovereign Ukraine territory, have underlined Russia’s air defence systems that protect the territory in those rejection of the rules-based international order. In Libya, two countries. In Iraq, the skies are open over ISIL- there has been a sharp deterioration of the security controlled territory, whereas in Syria a sophisticated 915 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 916 and Security and Security [Mr Philip Hammond] United Kingdom. The unprovoked attack on the Jewish museum in Brussels, the brutal beheadings of American integrated air defence system protects the whole of the journalists James Foley and Steven Sotloff and the country’s airspace and would make air strikes complex explicit threat to the life of a British hostage have made and difficult to deliver. it clear that ISIL will not hesitate to attack western citizens wherever it has the opportunity to do so. As the Mrs Moon rose— House will know, our intelligence agencies estimate that more than 500 British nationals have travelled abroad Mr Hammond: In view of Mr Speaker’s strictures, I to fight in Syria and Iraq for extremist groups, particularly must make some progress. I will allow the hon. Lady to ISIL. On the face of it, one of those individuals, nominally intervene later. British although sharing none of our values, was responsible Having established a heartland in Syria and advanced for the beheading of the American journalists. The into northern Iraq, ISIL is seeking to extend its reach potential return to the shores of hundreds of these with the openly stated objective of building a so-called radicalised jihadis, some of whom will have undergone caliphate embracing all the Muslim populations of the training in the conduct of terrorist atrocities, represents region in a single fundamentalist state that would subject one of the most serious threats to our national security its population to a brutal and barbaric regime while and was directly responsible for the decision to raise the waging perpetual war against the infidel beyond the threat level for international terrorism from substantial caliphate’s boundaries. This is a dangerous force that if to severe. left unchecked could transform swathes of the middle east into a haven for international terrorism. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Will ISIL’s barbaric acts in the areas it controls have my right hon. Friend give way? included targeted killings, forced religious conversions, abductions, trafficking, slavery and systematic sexual Mr Hammond: If I may, I will make a little progress. abuse on the basis of ethnicity and religion. It has forced hundreds of thousands of Iraqis of all Our response to that threat is and will remain measured, communities—Shi’a, Sunni, Christian, Yazidi—to flee deliberate and comprehensive. At home, our police and their homes in fear as its forces abuse, brutalise and kill security agencies are hard at work tackling the threat anyone who stands in the way of their advance. Their from returning jihadis and intercepting those intent on actions and poisonous ideology are not only abhorrent travelling abroad to join ISIL. Since April 2013, 23 people to our values and principles and, indeed, to the values have had their passport removed and so far this year and principles of all decent people, including the 69 people have been arrested for terror-related offences overwhelming majority of Muslims, but represent a in relation to Syria and Iraq. direct threat to Britain’s national security. As the Prime Minister set out last week, we are now urgently considering what more we can do in the face of Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): There this unprecedented terrorist threat. Among the measures are rumours that the Turks are buying oil from ISIS. Is being actively considered by the Government are it not important that members of NATO speak with strengthening the existing terrorism prevention and one voice and is it not an absolute priority for the investigation measures, including through stronger location international community to try to interdict the financial constraints on suspects and a requirement on individuals support that ISIS is gaining through illegal oil sales? to engage with the Prevent programme; putting the Channel de-radicalisation programme on a statutory Mr Hammond: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, footing; introducing temporary powers for police to and that has been precisely the thrust of a British seize passports at the border while suspected foreign initiative at the United Nations to cut off financial and fighters are investigated; creating a discretionary power other lines of support to ISIL. We will continue to to exclude British nationals from the UK; and putting pursue that route. on a statutory basis aviation security measures, including no-fly lists and the sharing of passenger information. Mrs Moon: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his As the Government crystallise our proposals, the House confirmation that we are using the United Nations to will have the opportunity to debate them in detail. point out the importance of cutting off financial support Strengthening our defences at home and tackling the to ISIL. Is he talking to Governments around the world movement of foreign fighters are just part of the answer. and ensuring that the Treasury is equally engaged in We must also tackle these threats at source, so we are ensuring that messages go out to banking systems and responding to the urgent humanitarian situation in the individuals that it is not a good thing to channel funds region, alleviating suffering in northern and eastern to ISIL and that, if they are not cut off now, these Iraq and helping to ease the growing burden on the murderous individuals will come into their countries? neighbouring states that has the potential to create even greater instability. Since the crisis in Syria began, we Mr Hammond: Yes, we are delivering that message have committed more than £600 million in humanitarian and our partners around the world are active. We have aid. In northern Iraq, Britain was the first donor country seen action over the past few days in many countries, on the ground, but we are clear that alongside the with people providing support networks to ISIL being immediate humanitarian response there must also be a disrupted, arrests being made and so on. coherent political response to delegitimise ISIL, cut off In seeking to establish its extremist state, ISIL is its sources of financial support and create the conditions already seeking to use the territory it controls as a under which local forces can regroup and tackle ISIL launch pad from which to attack the west, including the head on. 917 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 918 and Security and Security Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): On that specific Mr Hammond: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely point, will the Foreign Secretary confirm what support right. We are clear that ISIL is a threat to us as well as to is being given to Kurdish peshmerga fighters? stability in the region. But we are equally clear that we can contribute to defeating ISIL only through the leadership Mr Hammond: The UK has already supplied non-lethal of the Iraqi Government in Baghdad, and they have to aid to the peshmerga. We have transported ammunition be an Iraqi Government who are credible, inclusive, and from eastern Europe for the Soviet-era weapons that the command the respect and support of all the people of peshmerga have. Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Iraq. A huge burden therefore rests on the shoulders of Defence Secretary laid a departmental minute before Dr al-Abadi as he embarks on this mission with his new the House announcing the initial gifting of lethal aid to Government. We wish him well and will offer him every the peshmerga in the form of a supply of heavy machine practical support we can. guns, which should be delivered with the accompanying ammunition to Irbil today. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): On Syria, surely the position must be that, rather than leave Assad out of Mr Burrowes: The Prime Minister said that if there the process altogether, we should restart the Geneva was further evidence of a direct national threat and process in order that there can be a proper deal between human catastrophe, that would warrant further military our allies in the Free Syrian Army and the Assad action. The Foreign Secretary has spoken about coming Government. They can then be on our side in taking on back before the House if further action is needed, but the fundamental enemy, which is of course Islamic have we not reached the threshold at which there is State. That process can engage the Russians as well, but evidence of both a direct national threat and human if they are left outside this exercise we are dooming it to catastrophe, in terms of the genocide of Yazidis, Christians failure from the start. and others? Mr Hammond: Those around the Assad regime understand very well what they have to do to make Mr Hammond: The point the Prime Minister was progress: they have to remove Assad from his leadership making was that we must reserve our right to intervene role and replace him in order that we and the moderate at very short notice if an imminent humanitarian opposition in Syria have someone credible that they can catastrophe threatens, but we are also considering the talk to. longer-term proposition of how, in coalition with international partners, we can best rise to the challenge Sir Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): As we have presented by ISIL. If my hon. Friend will allow me to now moved to the welcome state whereby we are providing continue, I shall say something about that now. more than just assistance to the Kurds, would it not now be sensible to do the same thing for the Free Syrian Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): Army, who have themselves been fighting ISIS for over Will my right hon. Friend give way? a year?

Mr Hammond: I must make some progress. Mr Hammond: Our decision at the moment is that we In Syria, we continue to support a negotiated political will continue to supply non-lethal aid to the Syrian transition to end Assad’s brutal rule and pave the way moderate opposition. Of course, we keep that decision to a political solution to this appalling conflict. To under continuous review. As I said earlier, the situation those who ask whether we should make common cause in Syria is very different from the situation in Iraq. with Assad against the new enemy, ISIL, I say that While ISIL is seeking to make it a single theatre, we Assad cannot be the answer to defeating extremism. have to respond to the realities on the ground in both Working with this butcher would only reinforce the countries. appeal of ISIL and feed radicalisation at home. By These are vital steps, but the Prime Minister has contrast, therefore, we are strengthening our support made it clear that the political and humanitarian response for the moderate opposition, who share our values of in Iraq must be backed up by a security response that respect for human rights, the rule of law and inclusive will defeat ISIL on the ground. The Government’s clear politics. They deserve our admiration as they take the position is that there will be no UK combat boots on fight to the extremist terrorists in their country as well the ground in Iraq, but we have given our full support to as taking on regime forces. the targeted air strikes conducted by the United States In Iraq, we have strongly welcomed the formation of at the request of the legitimate Government of Iraq. the new Government under Dr Haider al-Abadi. To be With other NATO allies, and with the consent of the successful in turning the tide against ISIL, that Government Iraqi Government, we have been delivering arms and must now win the confidence of all Iraq’s communities equipment directly to Kurdish forces, as I have set out. by turning into deeds the words of the new Prime I know that many right hon. and hon. Members will, Minister’s published programme for inclusive Government. crucially, want to know whether we intend to go further in our security response. As the House will know, John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): Secretary Kerry is currently in the middle east seeking Will the Foreign Secretary accept my apologies for to build a regional coalition of the willing to support turning up to the debate slightly late? Does he accept Iraqi forces in the battle against ISIL—an organisation that the new Government of Iraq now have to show which, by definition, represents an existential challenge that they are doing this, and that if they cannot, it will to all of them. President Obama will speak to the be time for the UK and its neighbours to reconsider American people later today to set out his wider strategy what the political structure of Iraq can be to create for dealing with the threat from ISIL, including a stability in the region? possible expansion of US air strikes. 919 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 920 and Security and Security [Mr Philip Hammond] Soleimani, the Iranian revolutionary guard commander, in Baghdad? What possible reason do we have at the As the global resolve to tackle ISIL strengthens, we moment to believe that this Government are inclusive? will consider carefully what role the UK should play in the international coalition. I should emphasise that no Mr Hammond: I recognise my hon. Friend’s gentle decisions have been made. However, as the Prime Minister scepticism, shall I call it? Many figures within the newly set out on Monday, if we reached the conclusion that announced Government are not new faces. However, joining in American-led air strikes would be the appropriate the programme set out by Dr al-Abadi does represent, way to shoulder our share of the burden, then, in on the face of it, an approach that is far more inclusive accordance with the established practice, we would and far more willing to recognise the aspirations of ensure that the House of Commons had an opportunity the separate communities within Iraq than that of the to debate and vote on that proposition. previous Iraqi Government. Of course, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. We will be looking at Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): May I take the this very closely and providing every support we can. right hon. Gentleman back to his answer to the hon. We and other allies will be applying all pressure that we Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) about the position can on the Iraqi Government to pursue diligently the of the Assad regime? The whole House shares his view course that they have set out in that programme, and we that this is an odious regime, but surely what has very much hope they will deliver on those commitments. changed is that two years ago it was rational to assess that the Assad regime could be removed. Is that still his Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab) rose— view? Mr Hammond: I must make some progress now because Mr Hammond: Our clear intention is to create the we have a wide range of issues to cover. conditions where within the Alawite community and While we have been facing an ideological challenge to the community around the regime, the pressure builds our fundamental system of values from ISIL in Iraq to change the leadership—to remove Assad and those and Syria, we have also faced a fundamental challenge closely associated with him and replace them so that it to the post-cold war system of international relations in is possible for the moderate opposition forces and the Europe. international community to envisage a political solution For more than two decades since the collapse of the in Syria. Soviet Union, the west has opened a door to Russia and We are facing in our near abroad the most capable sought to draw her into the international rules-based terrorist group currently operating anywhere in the system, offering partnership, trade, investment and openness. world. We cannot underestimate the threat that it poses By its illegal annexation of Crimea and its aggressive to regional stability and to our security here at home, destabilisation of eastern Ukraine, the Russian leadership and we must be prepared to intensify our contribution has slammed that door shut. It has chosen the role of to action against ISIL if the situation demands. pariah rather than partner, and in doing so it has undermined the long-term security architecture of Europe. Rehman Chishti: In relation to ISIL and the foreign The tactics that President Putin has adopted—from fighters, the Secretary of State will have seen reports covert disruption to the first deployment of deniable from King’s College London, which engaged with some irregulars and unbadged Russian military personnel to of these fighters in Syria and Iraq. It reports that some capture sites in Crimea, through to the transfer of foreign fighters want to renounce terrorism and return heavy weapons and equipment to Ukrainian separatists to their countries of origin. Does the United Kingdom in Luhansk and Donetsk, and now, more recently, the have a position on that, and was it discussed with other deployment of formed Russian military units on to NATO members so that there is a combined position? Ukrainian soil—reflect a pattern that we have seen elsewhere. However much it is denied, Russia’s direct Mr Hammond: I too read the reports that my hon. responsibility for the situation in eastern Ukraine is Friend mentions. Clearly, those who have committed undeniable. terrorist acts must be held accountable for their actions; there can be no general amnesty. Obviously, the Home On 17 July, the irresponsibility of Russia’s behaviour Secretary will want to look carefully at the situation reached its terrible apotheosis, with the shooting down, that we are facing. I suggest that she will have noted from separatist-controlled territory with a Russian ground- what he said and might be able to respond further when to-air missile, of flight MH17, with the loss of 298 she winds up the debate. totally innocent lives. Their blood is on the hands of Russia’s leaders. Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): Will The Government, together with our international the Foreign Secretary give way? partners, have been clear from the start: whatever the provocation, there can be no purely military solution to Mr Hammond: I will give way once more at this stage. this crisis. The solution must be political, based on negotiations between Moscow and Kiev but upholding Rory Stewart: As I understand it, the Foreign Secretary the fundamental principles of respect for Ukrainian is saying that our policy is dependent on having a sovereignty and territorial integrity and of the right of credible, inclusive Government in Baghdad. On what the Ukrainian people to decide their own future. There criteria will the Foreign Office assess that Government? can be no Russian veto on democracy in Ukraine. What does he make of the appointment of Ibrahim The international community has a clear role to play al-Jafari? What about the Interior Ministry? What about by exerting the greatest possible pressure on Russia to the Defence Ministry? What about the position of Qasem withdraw its troops from Ukrainian soil, cease its support 921 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 922 and Security and Security for the separatists and enable the restoration of security to undertake an air policing role in the Baltic area. We along the Ukraine-Russia border with effective international are clear about the collective security guarantee that monitoring. NATO offers to our eastern NATO partners, and Mr Putin Russia has used asymmetric warfare to further its should be clear about that, too. ends, exploiting the relative advantages of its ability to act quickly, decisively and without transparency. We Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): If Mr Putin must respond to that by using our relative advantages, were to deploy in the Baltic states the same asymmetric most notably the enormously greater strength and resilience and deniable tactics he has used in Ukraine, would that of our economies compared with Russia’s, with its constitute an article 5 moment under the NATO treaty? terrible demography and its structural over-dependence on oil and gas exports. Mr Hammond: The engagement of article 5, which The UK has been at the forefront of efforts to leverage eastern partners would, of course, be perfectly entitled that economic strength through the imposing of far- to seek if they felt they were subject to threats, can elicit reaching economic sanctions. As the Prime Minister a response at various different levels. It does not have to announced to the House on Monday, the latest European involve full-scale armed conflict. The response would Union sanctions, building on the previous measures, have to be proportionate. Although this is in its infancy, will make it harder for Russian banks and energy and there is growing recognition that, in a much more defence companies to borrow money; prohibit the provision complicated world in which cyber-warfare will have a of services for the exploration of shale, deep water and very large role to play in any future conflict, we need to Arctic oil; and widen the ban on dual-use goods such as work out how we would respond proportionately and machinery and computer equipment. Additionally, a effectively to any given type of attack. new list of individuals to be included on sanctions lists has been agreed, including the new separatist leadership Several hon. Members rose— in Donbass, the Government of Crimea and key Russian decision makers and oligarchs. Mr Hammond: I must make a little more progress. We welcome the ceasefire that has been announced Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): between Russia and Ukraine, but, as we agreed with The situation in Ukraine has caused considerable President Poroshenko and key allies at the NATO summit, consternation and concern among our eastern European there must be a proper peace plan that ensures that NATO partners. I am sure that during his speech my Russia respects Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereign right hon. Friend will reaffirm our commitments to rights—and it has to be delivered, not just written them under our NATO obligations, but what is he down. Our position remains that flagrant violation of doing specifically to encourage NATO partners such as international norms and law will bring long-term costs Lithuania which are spending less than half the prerequisite for Russia, its economy and its standing in the world. 2% of GDP that they ought to be in these circumstances? Understandably, the ISIL challenge and the situation in Ukraine have dominated the agenda for the past few Mr Hammond: I will come in a moment to the weeks, but we are also confronted by a sharp deterioration measures we are taking to support eastern partners, but in the situation in Libya, as rival factions battle for my hon. Friend will know that Lithuania, along with all control of Tripoli and the disparate groupings that have the other 27 NATO members, signed up to the defence been a feature of the violence in Libya have started to spending commitment at last week’s NATO summit. coalesce into two main groups. The deterioration of the That was a huge triumph for British diplomacy. security situation has required the evacuation of hundreds of British nationals and the relocation of our embassy Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): Does the Foreign and staff to Tunis. I want to take this opportunity to Secretary believe that a man who spent 16 years rising pay tribute to the Royal Navy for its excellent work in to the top of the KGB and who is currently the President extracting British nationals to Malta, and to thank of Russia will be deterred by economic sanctions when publicly the Republic of Korea, which evacuated 47 British it is clear that Russia has territorial ambitions, as we nationals on a Korean warship that was in the area. have seen elsewhere in Europe? Finally, I want to turn to the perennial problem of Israel, Gaza and the middle east peace process. Ending Mr Hammond: These sanctions are having an effect: the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians they are exacerbating an already negative trend in Russia’s and seeing a responsible, viable and independent Palestinian economy. Russia’s economy shrank by 0.5% in the first state that respects the rights and security concerns of quarter of this year. Its largest bank has downgraded Israel taking its place among the family of nations forecasts of growth from 2.3% to 0.2%. Russian sovereign would be a major step towards restoring stability throughout bonds have been downgraded to one notch about junk the region. bond status, and capital flight is continuing, with an Throughout the summer, in my meetings and phone estimate that it could reach £80 billion. Although I calls with Prime Minister Netanyahu, President Abbas, understand absolutely the hon. Gentleman’s question President al-Sisi and others, I have supported the Egyptian- and his attempt, quite rightly, to analyse the emotional led talks in Cairo as being the best way to bring a rapid side of Mr Putin’s approach, he will not be able to be end to the violence, and we warmly welcome the agreement blind to the impact these sanctions are having on Russia’s that was reached in Cairo on 26 August, which has, at economy. last, led to a ceasefire that has held. It is now vital that We have also supported NATO measures to reassure negotiations resume and rapidly agree some practical, our eastern allies who feel most exposed to Russian deliverable and confidence-building first steps to improve pressure, including through the provision of RAF jets the situation for ordinary Palestinians in Gaza at the 923 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 924 and Security and Security [Mr Philip Hammond] I would, however, say to him that we are clear that, in due course, there must be a proper inquiry into what same time as reassuring Israel that there will be no went on. I shall return to that in a moment. further rocket fire against Israeli civilians and no rebuilding of military infrastructure inside Gaza. Several hon. Members rose—

Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Does the Foreign Mr Hammond: I will give way again in a moment, but Secretary agree that President Abbas now deserves the let me conclude this point. opportunity to demonstrate to the Palestinian people In due course, a resolution of the immediately pressing that the peaceful path towards statehood, not just the issues in Gaza and a resumption of Palestinian Authority rockets of Hamas, can bring dividends? He needs control in the strip must be steps towards the wider the opportunity, through diplomatic support, to make middle east peace process leading to a two-state solution. the same kind of progress that, unfortunately, Hamas However, for the negotiations to have the best possible can now demonstrate that it has made in having the chance of success, both sides need to resist domestic blockade on Gaza modified. pressures to take actions that could jeopardise the prospects of long-term peace. That is why we deplore the Israeli Mr Hammond: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I Government’s provocative decision to expropriate 988 acres shall come to the point about the involvement of the of land near Bethlehem. We have unequivocally condemned Palestinian Authority in a moment. that move, and we will continue to press the Government The steps we need to take must include measures that of Israel to reverse that decision. The UK’s position on will pave the way for the Palestinian Authority to resume settlements is clear: they are illegal under international control of Gaza and restore effective and accountable law; they present an obstacle to peace; and they take us governance, which will allow the progressive easing of further away from a viable two-state solution. Israeli security restrictions on Gaza and, in turn, allow the Gazan economy to grow. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I am very pleased to hear the Foreign Secretary condemn the Both the Prime Minister and I have expressed our Israeli action, but does he still not see that from the grave concern at the level of civilian casualties and the outside it looks as if the British Government are guilty scale of human suffering in Gaza during the recent of double standards? When Israel makes a land grab of violence, but we have also been clear that the indiscriminate this type, yes we have some harsh words, but nothing firing of thousands of rockets from Gaza into civilian else follows; if Putin does something in Ukraine, things areas of Israel by Hamas was a clear breach of international follow much more dramatically. I do not want to see humanitarian law, and that by launching attacks from such things, but I do want to see an end to double densely populated civilian areas—in some cases, from standards. sensitive buildings, such as mosques and schools—Hamas bears a direct responsibility for the appalling loss of Mr Hammond: I think that the hon. Lady is being a civilian lives. We have been equally clear that Israel has little harsh. The reality is that in the Israel-Palestine a right to defend itself against attack, but that in doing conflict, we have a deeply entrenched and largely intractable so it, too, must act in accordance with international law challenge, which has defeated many people who have with regard to proportionality and the avoidance of tried to solve it over many years. We have to make unnecessary civilian casualties. progress on this issue, but we are not going to make it by wagging fingers; we have to make it by engagement. The Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): In the light situation in Ukraine is different, with a clear violation of what the Foreign Secretary has just said, will he of the hitherto well-observed principle of international please explain why the British Government abstained at law that we do not resolve border disputes in Europe by the United Nations Human Rights Council on its official force of arms. The fact that Russia has breached that call for an investigation into war crimes that have occurred principle has put at risk the whole edifice of European there? Could he not express some regret about Britain’s security that has served us so well for many years. close military relationship with Israel, which has indeed helped it to kill more than 2,000 people in Gaza during Several hon. Members rose— the recent siege? Mr Hammond: I will take one last intervention. Mr Hammond: The hon. Gentleman’s last allegation is regrettable and completely inaccurate. We have looked Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): very carefully at the nature of the matériel and equipment Will the Foreign Secretary be slightly clearer about supplied to the Israelis, and we are confident that very what he sees as the consequences for Israel of not little of what we supplied could in any way have been stopping the progress of settlements? used in equipment deployed during this operation in Gaza. Mr Hammond: I have been very forward-leaning in On the hon. Gentleman’s first point, we chose to saying to my Israeli interlocutors—not only about the abstain on the resolution, along with all our European policy of settlements, but about the scale of the civilian Union partners, because it was not worded in an even- casualties that occurred in Gaza—that whatever the handed and open way. It was not aimed at getting to the rights and wrongs and whatever the position in international truth of what happened in Gaza, and it was not targeted law when the analysis is done, Israel runs a serious risk at possible wrongdoing by both sides. It was heavily of losing the sympathy for it that existed when it came lopsided, and made a political point, rather than seeking under attack by Hamas rockets earlier this summer. to get to the bottom of what actually took place. Israel needs to think about its long-term best interests, 925 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 926 and Security and Security not just about the short-term reactions that it can Africa, the threat of ISIL, the destabilisation of eastern deliver. I started this section of my speech by saying Europe by Russia and the new challenges facing NATO that if we are to make progress, both sides need to resist have created a palpable anxiety that the future may be the temptation to react to short-term provocations and less certain than many in the west had previously to play to domestic audiences. Both sides need to think anticipated. about the long-term best interests of both the Israeli Given the scale and the pace of change, any Government people and the Palestinian people. must seek to approach the challenges with appropriate humility. However, as I and others across the House Several hon. Members rose— have argued, that must not give way to passivity in Mr Hammond: I am coming to the end of my speech, international affairs. For Britain to retreat from the and I know that many hon. Members want to participate world would be as foolish as it would be futile. Growing in the debate. interdependence and the rise of cross-border threats mean that co-operating and collaborating with international The stability of the international order is at risk. Our partners is more vital in promoting our national interests values and principles—freedom, democracy and the than ever before. Today, the alliances that have helped rule of law—are coming under sustained attack, and to keep half a century of peace in Europe—the transatlantic our homeland security is under threat. Our resolve to bond, NATO and our co-operation with EU allies—are meet these multiple challenges is being put to the test. essential to Britain’s security and prosperity, perhaps The Government are clear that we cannot shirk our more so than for many years. responsibilities in the world. If violations of international norms are allowed to go unchallenged and the spread of Nowhere is that more evident than in the middle east. terrorist organisations with violent and extremist ideologies That region is experiencing some of the darkest days of is allowed to go unchecked, the future prospects for our its tumultuous and violent history. The Arab uprisings own national security and that of the friends and partners that began in December 2010 fleetingly seemed to herald who share our values will only get worse. a new beginning, yet they precipitated a period of unprecedented turmoil in Syria, Egypt and Libya, the In standing up to Russian aggression, we must continue spill-over effect of which has brought to the fore historical to send the clear message to President Putin that his sectarian and religious tensions across the region. behaviour will not be tolerated, and that the end result will be a weaker, not a stronger Russia. In tackling the ISIL is the latest and possibly the most brutal terrorist threat from ISIL and in supporting the newly manifestation of this period of regional upheaval. Labour formed Government of Iraq, we must be prepared to is clear that that threat cannot and must not be ignored. use all the means at our disposal to reverse ISIL’s It cannot be ignored, because of our sense of conscience advance, to deny its objectives and to defend ourselves towards those who immediately face ISIL’s terror, because at home. In supporting the resolution of the conflict ISIL threatens the democratic Iraqi state and seeks to between Israel and Hamas and ultimately the advance establish a state—a caliphate—of its own, and because of the middle east peace process, we must be clear with of the danger that the export of ISIL’s ideology causes both sides that only a negotiated political settlement here in the United Kingdom. can deliver the security guarantees that Israel needs and The discussions at last week’s NATO summit highlighted the viable state that the Palestinian people deserve. the need to build the widest possible consensus in the In the face of these multiple threats to our security pursuit of any strategy to combat ISIL. As the US and our interests, I have no doubt that the British Secretary of State, John Kerry, embarks on his tour of people will rise to the challenge and show the resolve, regional capitals today, it is clear that a broad partnership the courage and the determination that have defined across the region, alongside a genuinely multilateral our nation for hundreds of years. political, diplomatic and humanitarian alliance, is vital as we chart a way ahead. 1.29 pm Of course, any international strategy for combating ISIL in Iraq must ultimately be led by Baghdad. The Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire formation of the new Iraqi Government this week was South) (Lab): I thank the Foreign Secretary for the a much needed step forward. Prime Minister Abadi has remarks with which he opened the debate. This is our a duty to his citizens and a responsibility in his Government first exchange on the Floor of the House since his to advance a more inclusive power-sharing form of appointment, so may I take this opportunity to warmly working within the capital of Iraq—a subject about welcome him and the Secretary of State for Defence to which there has already been some discussion on the their vital roles for our country? The Foreign Secretary Floor of the House. The progress that has been made so comes to the post to help us navigate a time of very real far shows that there is the possibility of further progress. risks and rising uncertainties for the United Kingdom. With crucial posts such as Defence Secretary still to be In these difficult times, I know that the whole House filled, there is more that can and must be done to will wish him well in carrying out his duties in the establish an inclusive Government who can earn the months ahead. critical trust of Sunnis and Kurds across Iraq. The Foreign Secretary will be aware that Members from all parts of the House have been calling on the The threat that ISIL poses stretches across borders, Government to grant a full day’s debate on foreign so a strategy for combating ISIL cannot be confined affairs. I welcome the opportunity to discuss Ukraine, within the borders of Iraq. the middle east, north Africa and security today. This debate undoubtedly takes place at a time of significant Rory Stewart: Would the right hon. Gentleman like global upheaval and significant challenge for the United to define what an inclusive Government in Baghdad Kingdom. The conflicts in the middle east and north would look like? What kind of offer needs to be made to 927 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 928 and Security and Security [Rory Stewart] reflect on the wisdom and sense of the remarks that he has made, I hope he will think again. There are unique the Sunni people in terms of autonomy, who should be and specific challenges facing Iraq that are wholly different in the Cabinet, and how would he judge whether the from those we are facing in the United Kingdom. They Government are or are not inclusive? reflect the particular circumstances of that country and the challenges that it faces today. If his point is that we Mr Alexander: In asking his question, the hon. need to find a way for a more inclusive approach to be Gentleman anticipates my answer, which is that, frankly, taken to the politics within Iraq, I think we can agree it is not for the shadow Foreign Secretary to make that with each other. I am not sure that I can go much judgment. The critical judgment will be that of the further than that. Sunni community within Iraq. It is vital that there is a dialogue ahead of appointment, so that we do not have Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Perhaps I a situation in which those outside Iraq presume that a could try to clarify the point made by my hon. Friend degree of unity has been achieved but, alas, it proves to the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen be illusive within the country. The point that he makes Barclay). Is not the issue in Iraq that in large areas of is fair, but it only reinforces the vitality of there being the country, people do not accept the state or the inclusivity preceding the appointment, rather than assertions democratic system because they do not think that it of inclusivity after the appointment. speaks to them and they do not think that there is a peaceful means of change? How will we persuade them Rehman Chishti: The shadow Foreign Secretary says that there is a peaceful, democratic answer? that it is not the role of the international community to intervene in who comes to office and what position they Mr Alexander: Again, I think that the question is take, but surely he agrees that the international community revealing. It is not for us in the House of Commons or has a role in ensuring that another Government like in the west to persuade those people; it is for the politics Mr Maliki’s do not come to power. If that happens, the of Iraq to move in the direction that we on both sides of international community must dissociate itself at an the House wish it to move in. That places a premium on earlier stage. If it had done so with Mr Maliki’s domestic, political leadership. It is deeply regrettable Government, we might not have the problem that we that Prime Minister Maliki succumbed to the forces of now have of international terrorism in Iraq. division, rather than showing the kind of leadership that we all wanted to see and creating unity. However, Mr Alexander: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman’s that is not a test for the Opposition or even for our point about former Prime Minister Maliki. I had the Government; it is primarily a test for the Government opportunity to speak to President Barzani of the Kurdistan in Baghdad. I sincerely hope that they will show themselves Regional Government a matter of weeks ago by video capable of rising to that test in the months ahead. conference. He could not have been clearer about the destructive effect of the sectarian approach that was On Syria, no one would deny that there were differences taken by the Maliki Government, both in corrupting of opinion across the House on the proposed military the chain of command in the Iraqi army and destabilising action to target President Assad’s chemical weapons the politics of the country. Our friends and colleagues facilities 12 months ago. However, even those who in the United States were entirely right in holding out supported military action accept that the decision that the need for Maliki to go, given the profound damage was before the House a year ago in August was not a that he did to the fabric of society and the process of choice between ending or prolonging the conflict. It is governance in Iraq. The challenge, however, is not to the continuation of the conflict, rather than the form it look backwards, but to look forwards to see whether has taken, that has allowed Syrian territory to be used the new Prime Minister is in a position to make the as a training and recruiting base for ISIL. That is why progress that many of us wish Maliki had been able to the Opposition have argued that the priority for the make. international community must be to refocus attention on achieving a transitional agreement in Syria of the type that was anticipated in the Geneva II process. That Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): is the only way to facilitate a more co-ordinated Syrian The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith front that is dedicated to combating the threat of ISIL and The Border (Rory Stewart) is making, and with within the sovereign territory of Syria. which many of us agree, is that the Government and the Opposition seem to have an unachievable aim. It is Humanitarian support for the countries affected by slightly ironic that we are offering devo-max after 300 years the turmoil in Iraq and Syria is vital. I hope that the of union, while at the same time we think there can be a Minister who winds up the debate will address the unified Iraq, even though it has a Kurdish state that has Opposition’s calls for a more comprehensive package of its own Prime Minister, President and armed forces; the support for Jordan—a country that has one of the Saudis are not content to allow Iran to dominate the longest land borders with Iraqi ISIL-held territory and country; and the Iranians do not want 10 million barrels an even longer border with Syria in the north. of oil a day to be pumped from a unified Iraq. That seems to be an unrealistic aim on the basis of which to Mr Baron: I think all of us in the House agree that have UK air strikes. when it comes to ISIS and Iraq, the solution has to be political. On the military options, does the shadow Mr Alexander: It ill behoves the hon. Gentleman to Foreign Secretary accept that airstrikes alone will not suggest that there is any meaningful comparison between defeat ISIS? Ground troops are required, but they should what we are witnessing in Scotland and what is taking not be western troops. They should be local forces, and place in Iraq. When he has had the opportunity to the elephant in the room is the Iraqi army itself. 929 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 930 and Security and Security Mr Alexander: I travelled down for this debate from ISIL. We have made it clear on many occasions that we Scotland, where I have been otherwise occupied, and would reach a judgment on the basis of any motion had the great pleasure of reading the exchange between brought before the House. That was the position that the hon. Gentleman and the Foreign Secretary on exactly we took in relation to Libya a couple of years ago and that matter. I found myself in agreement with the point in relation to the vote on chemical weapons in Syria in that the Foreign Secretary made before the Foreign the House a year ago in August. It is for the Government Affairs Committee yesterday. Of course airstrikes have to set out their thinking and for the Opposition to reach a role to play as part of the unique military capabilities a judgment. of the United States, and they have been deployed in Iraq in particular, but that alone is not an adequate Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): The shadow response to the scale and threat of the ISIL challenge Foreign Secretary knows that the United States has that we are now witnessing. That is why I stand behind been engaged in airstrikes—there have been about 130—and the process that Secretary of State Kerry has initiated, that the Kurds have warmly welcomed the contribution coming out of the NATO summit in Newport. I welcome that those airstrikes have made to blunting the advance the fact that he is in the region at the moment talking to of ISIL. To return to the question that my hon. Friend those in regional capitals, and I hope to develop a little the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) asked, if it more of my theme on the matter in the coming moments. were put to the right hon. Gentleman today that the United Kingdom should join the United States in those Several hon. Members rose— airstrikes, would the Labour party support that?

Mr Alexander: Let me make a little progress, then I Mr Alexander: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, no will be happy to take some more interventions. such request has been made. America has unique military The rise of ISIL has now created a threat so extreme capabilities, and we have supported the Government in that it is apparently uniting previous adversaries, including their support of those US airstrikes, which are at the Iran and Saudi Arabia, neither of which has an interest specific request of the Iraqi Government. I am rightly in allowing it to succeed. Last week’s agreement by not privy to all conversations between the British and Arab League leaders to unite against ISIL is a hopeful Iraqi Governments, but my understanding is that no sign of progress in the region, which as we have heard is such request has been made to the British Government too often divided along sectarian, ethnic and religious for airstrikes against ISIL. We have supported the lines. That relates to the point that the hon. Member for understanding that was set out in relation to the North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) made. We support the decision humanitarian mission and the use of Tornadoes for of our friends and colleagues in France to convene an reconnaissance capabilities, first at Mount Sinjar and international conference on Iraq on 15 September, but then more broadly. We have also strongly supported the as a permanent member of the Security Council and its arming of the peshmerga. I am glad to say that we have current chair, we believe that the United Kingdom can been able to take a genuinely bipartisan approach, and and should do more to co-ordinate the efforts of key it ill behoves the hon. Gentleman either to suggest that regional allies, particularly Turkey and Saudi Arabia, as a request has been made, when none has yet been well as to engage with Iran. So far, the Prime Minister forthcoming, or to anticipate particular circumstances. has hinted at Iranian involvement but given no commitment It is reasonable that we would be expected to cast our to facilitate that where appropriate. I hope that the judgment on the basis of the circumstances at the time Minister who winds up the debate will give us a little and the nature of the request issued. more clarity about what discussions are under way in relation to Iran. Daniel Kawczynski: Will the right hon. Gentleman It seems clear from recent statements that the UK give way? Government are still formulating their approach to the threat of ISIL. Obviously they are not alone in that Mr Alexander: I have been generous in taking a endeavour, given recent and anticipated statements by couple of interventions on this point, and I am keen to the US President. Although any strategy for dealing make a little progress. with ISIL will by definition be long-term, that is not an excuse for long-term delay in setting it out. Of course The past seven weeks in Gaza and Israel have been there is a need for operational discretion, but diplomatic the deadliest for years in an area already scarred by the and political alliances can be effectively built only on tragic pattern of conflict. Today, the hopes of millions the basis of open and frank discussions about aims and hinge on the willingness of all sides to uphold the latest, objectives in the days and weeks ahead. I therefore hope and hopefully lasting, Egyptian-brokered ceasefire. The that further clarity will be provided. Opposition opposed the Israel incursion into Gaza. When it began, we warned from the Dispatch Box that Mr Gray: The shadow Foreign Secretary calls for further escalation of the conflict would be a disaster for clarity in the weeks and months that lie ahead. If Her the people of both Gaza and Israel and a strategic error Majesty’s Government were to decide that airstrikes for Israel. against Iraq, or parts of Iraq, became the right thing to We have all seen this deadly pattern of violence too do, and if they were—wrongly in my view—to come many times before. Five years ago, after an earlier to the House and ask for a vote on the matter, would the conflict in Gaza, I walked amidst the rubble of what Labour party support the Government? had been a Palestinian family’s home. As a father myself, I will never forget the father showing me tearfully where Mr Alexander: First, I do not think it is under his children had been killed. The death toll caused by contemplation that there would be airstrikes against three weeks of intense and bloody fighting shocked and Iraq. If there were airstrikes, they would be against outraged many around the world. Such fighting goes on 931 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 932 and Security and Security [Mr Douglas Alexander] Mr Alexander: One of the profound challenges facing the state of Israel is to recognise that in responding to to define a generation, I fear; it makes enemies out of its immediate security challenges in the region, it risks neighbours. Since the conflict began in July, more than losing standing and authority in the international 2,200 Palestinians have lost their lives, the vast majority community. A younger generation of citizens in the of them innocent civilians. Of course the conflict must United Kingdom have no memory of the experience of not be reduced simply to a ledger of casualties, but the the Israeli state after 1948, when it was periodically scale of suffering in Gaza today must be fully and threatened by invasion from powerful neighbours. Instead, frankly acknowledged, because the life of a Palestinian they have seen in recent conflicts the overwhelming use child is worth no less than the life of an Israeli child. of military force by the Israel defence forces, which Today, out of the rubble of Gaza, the death and shapes and affects their view of the conflict. destruction that followed the Israeli military incursion It is important for the Israeli Government to recognise will be there for the world to see. Many people have that statehood for the Palestinians is not a gift to be been forced from their homes and more than 350,000 are given, but a right to be recognised. It is not simply that thought to be sheltering in emergency accommodation. Israeli settlements on occupied territory lands are illegal Many now have no home to return to, so the priority under international law, it is that it is simply wrong to must be getting vital humanitarian resources into Gaza build on other people’s lands. That is why the most to help those in desperate need. I welcome the Government’s recent initiative is so wholly unacceptable, both because assurances on the UK’s bilateral support, and it is vital of the reality that Israel is building once more on other that the planned Palestinian donor conference, now people’s land, with that land being occupied for military scheduled for 12 October, does not face further delays. purposes, and because of the symbol that it sends about the seriousness of the Israeli Government to try to Palestinian poverty cannot continue to be Israel’s make meaningful progress on a negotiated solution. We de facto strategy for security. An end to the fighting, must break the pattern of periodic conflict, permanent although of course welcome, must not be an excuse for blockade, and episodic attempts at talks. In that sense, a return to the status quo of terror, occupation and of course there is a heavy burden of responsibility on blockade. The whole House will feel real regret that the Palestinians, but there is also a very heavy burden of instead of seizing the initiative to move forward, Israel responsibility on the Israeli Government. My genuine has given the international community renewed cause fear is that this latest step in settlement building will be for concern. The recent Israeli annexation of land in the interpreted as being far from positive as to the sincerity west bank must be forthrightly condemned. It is a of the Israeli Government’s efforts in that regard. serious setback at a perilous time, and the Israeli Government must reverse that decision. Israel’s own Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): My right hon. Friend Finance Minister has said that the decision harms Israel, heard the Foreign Secretary say that simply wagging and he is right. fingers would not contribute to meaningful peace in the In Israel, the death of 64 soldiers and three civilians middle east. Will he say what UK stance, either bilaterally has scarred a society already traumatised by the cost or with our partners, could make any higher diplomatic of conflict. No one should question Israel’s right to or political case than wagging our finger? defend itself, but we all have a duty to raise questions about the wisdom, morality and legality of the force Mr Alexander: My hon. Friend raises an important that is used. There can be no military solution to the point. How does one effectively seek to influence the conflict, either now or in the future. Only a wider conduct of the Israeli Government? One truth that we political agreement to end the violence will provide the in this House must confront is that Prime Minister longer-term security that civilians on all sides crave. Of Netanyahu—many of us have had concerns about specific course, we unequivocally condemn the rocket attacks actions he has taken—is probably more popular 10 years on civilian populations in Israel. There can be no after taking office than when he first assumed it. The justification for the conduct of Hamas and other test for me is not, “Can we make headlines?”, but “Can organisations operating out of Gaza, but ultimately only we make a difference?”, and the test of that is whether a political agreement to end the violence will provide actions taken in the United Kingdom, or at European that longer-term security. level, strengthen the forces of progress in Israeli society, or strengthen the forces of reaction. Today, the risk is a return to a period of no peace and no process. After the fighting has stopped, we all hope I fully understand the depth of feeling among many that talks will begin, but peace will come only when all Opposition Members about the urgency of finding sides accept that talks are not simply the things that meaningful ways to influence Israel, and for it to adopt happen in between renewed bouts of the conflict. Talks an approach that many of us believe better suited to its are about bringing a meaningful end to the cycle of long-term interests. But in reality, if we were to take violence, which is why I hope the British Government actions that strengthened a narrative in Israeli society will continue their efforts to support meaningful attempts that somehow the whole world is against them, that the to secure a negotiated solution. only people they can trust to defend them are the IDF, and that they can have no security reliant on international agreements but must instead look only to themselves, I Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I wholly support the right fear that far from that leading to the progress we all hon. Gentleman’s remarks that we need a political sincerely want, we would get a further reinforcement of settlement of the Gaza-Israeli dispute. Does he agree the pattern of destruction and blockade that we have that the Israelis risk losing international sympathy if seen over recent years. I am conscious of the anger, they carry on building settlements and seizing land, urgency and frustration that so many people on both which is contrary to international law and unacceptable? sides of this House feel about making progress, but our 933 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 934 and Security and Security challenge is about what can make a difference given the both for the indiscriminate killing of Israeli civilians discourse in Israeli society, the balance of forces in the and for the destructive role it has played when we have Knesset, and the views previously taken by the Israeli tried to secure the two-solution we want. Please do not Government. be in any doubt as to where I stand on wanting a unification of the Palestinian community so that we can Jeremy Corbyn: During the crisis of the last six weeks have that meaningful two-state solution, but I am also or so, American arms have continued to flow to Israel, unequivocal in my condemnation of the use of rockets the EU-Israel trade agreement continued unabated, and as a weapon of war by Hamas and other terrorist Britain, while not exporting a vast amount of equipment organisations operating out of Gaza. There should be to Israel, has continued a military relationship with it. no uncertainty or ambiguity about my position. Does my right hon. Friend think that at the very least we should be supporting an investigation into war Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): Will crimes and suspending military co-operation with Israel my right hon. Friend say a couple of words about a while that is going on? matter on which I had hoped the Foreign Secretary Mr Alexander: We took a different position to the would have accepted a question from me, particularly as Government on the export of arms—once they managed I wrote to him about it only last week? It concerns the to sort out what their position was—by saying that no terms of the ceasefire agreement in Gaza. We all accept arms should be exported during this conflict, and certainly that a long-term solution requires a two-state solution, that no arms should be exported where there were justice for the Palestinians, security for Israel and so on, reasonable concerns that the consolidated criteria were but the ceasefire agreement is specific in requiring actions not being adhered to by the end user, which in this case now. One of those actions is the cessation of hostilities, was the state of Israel. Of course any allegations of war the other is at least an easing of the blockade. Last week crimes that are brought to the attention of the United the new DFID Minister— Nations, and others, should be investigated. On my hon. Friend’s substantive point, the nature of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I the military relationship between the United Kingdom think the shadow Foreign Secretary has picked up the and Israel is profoundly different to the relationship point. If necessary the hon. Gentleman will have to between the United States and Israel. It is important to make another intervention. nail the misperception that somehow the sustained military aid provided by the United States Government to the Mr Alexander: I hope I have got the gist of my hon. state of Israel, based on their long-standing strategic Friend’s point about the lifting of the blockade. Of alliance, is comparable in a meaningful way to the course we want that, but in reality it will happen only export of arms to Israel under tightly drawn consolidated with the agreement of the Israelis, who are ensuring criteria and on a commercial basis by arms manufacturers that the blockade is in place at the moment. That in the United Kingdom. therefore requires it to be part of a process, leading to When I was Secretary of State for International the kind of meaningful negotiations of which I have Development under the previous Administration, I oversaw spoken. After a previous conflict, one reason why I the largest ever package of aid to the Palestinian Authority. travelled to Gaza and Israel was to urge the lifting of We do not provide any aid to the Israelis as they are a the blockade, which at the time was affecting humanitarian much wealthier nation. The reasons we sent that aid to supplies—not just access for humanitarian workers, but the Palestinian Authority were twofold. First, of course, the most basic essentials of life in Gaza. Similarly, we we had an obligation on poverty reduction to make sure need a dynamic process whereby we can get the blockade that we were ensuring a higher standard of living for lifted and return to a greater degree of normality in impoverished people, not just on the west bank but in Gaza, while at the same time have the kind of meaning Gaza. Critically, we also supported those aid payments negotiations of which I have been speaking. because we wanted a credible negotiating partner for I wish to make some progress, because I am conscious the state of Israel. If we are serious about matching our that many hon. Members want to speak. As I said, the words about a two-state solution with deeds, we must north African region was the birthplace of the Arab continue to make what I recognise are often difficult uprising, and across the region countries are still struggling decisions and choices to continue to support the legitimate to address the consequences. Of course, although some voice of the Palestinian peoples, the Palestinian Authority. might face similar problems, each north African state is If we are to be questioned about our aid relationship different and distinctive. In Tunisia, the Government with the region, the facts are that we do not provide aid and the people continue to work towards a political to Israel, but we do provide hundreds of millions of settlement that can move the country forward. High pounds to the Palestinians—and rightly so—both in the unemployment and sporadic violent clashes on the streets service of poverty reduction and to ensure a capacity continue, but the prospect for long-term political for meaningful negotiations in the future. reconciliation remains strong, and the international community must unite around supporting elections to John Howell (Henley) (Con): The right hon. Gentleman’s take place later this year. analysis of the situation will come across as extremely one-sided, and that he is being far too dismissive of the The situation in Libya stands in marked contrast to role of Hamas in this situation. the story of Tunisian progress. The intensification of fighting near the capital Tripoli has led to calls for an Mr Alexander: I am not entirely clear of the basis on urgent and immediate ceasefire and the Libyan Cabinet which the hon. Gentleman makes his point, but let me submitted its resignation en masse to Parliament, which reiterate for the record, and so that he can rest assured, is today taking refuge in a ferry in the city of Tobruk that I am unyielding in my condemnation of Hamas, after being forced out by the Tripoli militias. The UK 935 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 936 and Security and Security [Mr Douglas Alexander] wherever our interests lie, we need a strategy that combines military readiness with political, diplomatic and strategic Government issued a joint statement on 25 August alliances, and in their efforts to develop and advance saying that outside interference in Libya would exacerbate such an approach, I hope they will continue to enjoy divisions and undermine Libya’s democratic transition, our support. but given the deteriorating security situation, I am sure the Foreign Secretary would agree that if the opportunity Several hon. Members rose— for real political reconciliation is to be seized, the UK, along with our allies France, Germany, Italy and the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We United States, have a responsibility and role to play. It is will start with a seven-minute limit, which means we vital that international partners continue to encourage should get everyone in, but if we can help each other, it all sides in Libya to engage constructively in the democratic will make a difference. I call Sir Richard Ottaway. process, while continuing our active backing of the UN support mission there. The UN Libya envoy arriving in 2.4 pm Tripoli on Monday said it was a society that was fed up with conflict. We know that the people of Libya want Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): It is a the fighting to stop; now we need to see Libya’s political pleasure to follow the shadow Foreign Secretary—I leaders taking action to resolve this crisis. agreed with virtually everything he said. I will speak briefly about Iran. In an already volatile Originally, the NATO summit was primarily to deal region at a particularly perilous period, a nuclear-armed with the future of Afghanistan after the withdrawal of Iran poses a threat not only to its neighbours, but to the ISAF forces, but two issues that threaten the world stability of the whole region, so the agreement in November order dominated the agenda: first, the risk posed by 2013 to curb enrichment and grant greater access to Islamist extremism, and secondly the long-term implications inspectors was a significant step forward and one that of the Russia-Ukraine crisis. The Syria vote last August we welcomed. As many Members across the House left a vacuum in the world order, but no one predicted have acknowledged, however, the strength of the agreement that ISIS would conquer large swathes of Syria and will be tested through its implementation. In recent Iraq and impose terror, or that Russia would invade weeks, the talks between the P5 plus 1 have clearly Crimea and directly fuel a bloody civil war in eastern stalled over disagreements on the purpose of Iran’s Ukraine. Both crises, although unexpected, are not just nuclear programme. The deadline to overcome these regional conflicts and both threaten the security of difficulties is fast approaching, so as meetings take Europe. The hybrid war led by Putin and the Islamist place in New York later this month, the international terror imposed by the jihadists cannot be tackled with community must remain focused on securing a traditional responses. comprehensive deal. The Ukrainian crisis is a wake-up call for the west. Until Russian troops violated the territorial integrity Russian imperialism and revisionism are back. We have and sovereignty of Ukraine in 2014, no country had tried to address it with diplomacy, but clearly it has not seized the territory of another European country by worked, so we have imposed sanctions. However, not force since 1945. The recent ceasefire deal agreed last every country has complied with the new rules. Spain, week was therefore a welcome sign of progress, but for instance, is still allowing the Russian navy to refuel given the continuing potential for catastrophic in Ceuta. The bans and asset freezes have now been misunderstanding or simply misjudgment on the ground, escalated, but we must be ready to take more hard-line the priority must remain de-escalation. Russian troops measures. Even France has decided to stop the delivery must return to their bases, President Putin must cease of the Mistral warships. The City of London and his backing for separatist militias and the Kremlin must Russian transactions should be our next targets. As stop the flow of arms and personnel across the Russian Edward Lucas, senior economist for The Economist and border into Ukraine. Until then, Europe must continue a witness before the Foreign Affairs Committee, said to be explicit about the real costs and consequences for the other day: Russia if it fails to de-escalate the crisis. “The City is a fifth column in this country and it lobbies very hard against restrictions on the import and laundry of dirty Only a graduated hierarchy of diplomatic and economic money here.” measures can help President Putin to change course. This has to end. The City cannot be allowed to get away That is why I welcome all the steps agreed last week at with it. the NATO summit in Wales, specifically with regard to the reassurances given to NATO’s vital eastern European Sanctions only, however, will not deter an irrational members and partners. In the face of renewed Russian and unpredictable Vladimir Putin, who reportedly said aggression and the re-emergence of territorial disputes that on the continent, the need for NATO to revisit its stated “if I want, I will have Kiev in two weeks”. core purpose—securing a Europe that is whole, free and We must show more solidarity with countries in the at peace—has been brought into stark relief. vicinity of Russia, especially now that Russian forces This debate could not cover several other pressing have crossed the border and kidnapped an Estonian issues that have rightly been the focus of the Foreign officer. I welcome the Prime Minister’s reassurance on Secretary’s effort since his appointment. No doubt today Monday that Estonia is a red line for NATO. the Home Secretary and the shadow Home Secretary Perhaps we should forget about the NATO-Russian will cover in more detail some of the domestic aspects Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Co-operation and of security and counter-terrorism. As the Leader of the Security and install permanent NATO bases in the Opposition made clear on Monday, the Government member states that were once part of the communist must now demonstrate a clear-eyed understanding that bloc. Russia itself has breached that agreement by 937 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 938 and Security and Security annexing Crimea and intervening in Ukraine. We must willing to step in and confront ISIS militarily and not forget about Ukraine. Kiev needs our reassurance, politically. A huge rift has arisen between the Sunnis, but mostly our money to contain a severe economic the Shi’as and, to a degree, the Kurds. The ISIS surge is crisis. The freeze of the conflict in eastern Ukraine fuelled by a Sunni uprising, but in truth the Sunnis are could end up in another no man’s land being influenced not fans of ISIS. In my view, they would ditch the by Russia, like Georgia’s Abkhazia and South Ossetia jihadists once a “Sunnistan” was established. As ISIS is or Moldova’s Transnistria and Gagauzia. hostile to everybody, I predict that it will have a relatively The second major threat is from Islamist extremism. short life, but eventually I think these developments will ISIS is a manifestation of the brutal and poisonous result in a Kurdistan in the north, a “Sunnistan” in the extremism that has developed in the middle east, north west and a “Shi’astan” in the south. Africa and the Sahel. It has been thriving on the sectarian However, the threats posed by a revanchist Russia violence triggered by the polarising Shi’a Government and an extremist ISIS are not the only ones currently of Nouri al-Maliki. In addition, the fight against Assad facing the world—although they are the most pressing. has strengthened the jihadists. Islamist warriors from The internet and modern methods of communication all over the world, including the UK, have joined ISIS have enabled local and regional extremisms to flourish. in its crusade to topple the Syrian dictator. Cash, too, Thanks to them, we are witnessing a wave of global has flooded in from wealthy Gulf donors. However, I tribalism, starting with the Scottish referendum in our completely accept the word of Prince Mohammed bin own backyard. In times like these we realise how much Nawaf Al-Saud, the hugely respected Saudi Arabian we depend on our international alliances to address ambassador to London, when he denies his Government’s present and future risks. involvement. Over the summer recess, we heard a lot from bishops The suspicion remains, however, that shadowy middle and generals, who gave us the benefit of their views. The eastern figures are funding terrorism, and the UK has Bishop of Leeds is a great friend of mine. Indeed, he been leading efforts to halt that flow. I welcome the UN was the best bishop that Croydon ever had, but to resolution, drafted by the UK and adopted by everyone, accuse the Government of lacking a strategy towards threatening sanctions against ISIS financiers and weapons the Christians stuck on a mountain in Syria is, I think, suppliers. However, ISIS does not rely solely on that the wrong approach. Our strategy is to have an Army, money; it has been flourishing on smuggling, extorting to be a member of NATO, to be a member of international taxes and ransoms, plundering and selling oil from institutions and then to react when the circumstances invaded territories. arise. The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children wants children to be saved; Médecins Sans Sir Nicholas Soames: Is my right hon. Friend aware Frontières wants more health services. These are single-issue that at a meeting tomorrow in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, lobbying organisations. I think the Churches should hosted by the Saudis, the Gulf states, with John Kerry recognise that. Again, that goes for the generals who on present, are to decide how best to move forward in the numerous occasions called for Parliament to be recalled fight against ISIS? Does he agree that they have a to bomb anywhere they could think of. In this area the perfect chance to show, through bold and decisive action, only people who can make policy are those who are that they will not tolerate what ISIS is doing and well prepared to seek election and to stand on a platform to understand the need to deal with it? defend it, not those who sit in armchairs. 2.13 pm Sir Richard Ottaway: I completely agree with my Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): I draw to the right hon. Friend and I welcome that meeting. Indeed, House’s attention the fact that I am co-chairman of he pre-empts my next remark. ISIS must be stopped the all-party group on Iran and also co-chairman of the and defeated, and I for one will support the Government’s British-Turkish Forum. plan to join the United States in air strikes if they I begin by echoing the sentiments expressed by my decide to do so. right hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Secretary to the Foreign Secretary—a great post that I hope he enjoys. I Rehman Chishti: On air strikes, ISIL and Syria, my always felt it was living history, but I had echoing in my right hon. Friend will be aware of the words of Robert head the words of Henry Ford: history was “one damned Ford, the former US envoy to Syria, who said that the thing after another”. So it was for me, and so I think it current international policy on Syria does not reflect will be for the Foreign Secretary. the reality on the ground. That being the case, does my John Maynard Keynes famously said: right hon. Friend agree that the international community “When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What now needs to review its policy on Syria? do you do, sir?” The information on Syria has changed. The Assad Sir Richard Ottaway: I have to confess that I rather regime is not going to go and, with respect to the agree with the Foreign Secretary that Syria is very much Foreign Secretary, I did not really feel that he was any a different case from Iraq. We have to be guided by more convinced than we were by the answer he gave. those in the Foreign Office who are closer to the ground The situation has simply changed. I would not put any and to the intelligence that has been received on the money on that regime now going, and if we want to ground. deal with the greater evil, in my view there has to be The focus should now be on Iraq and then we can communication—not a re-establishment of relations—with think about how to address the situation in Syria. it. I firmly believe that those in the Government should However, to be frank, a western intervention will not follow up the entirely sensible suggestion from their magically solve the problems on the ground. There is a hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) need for Arab countries to join the coalition of the and many others in this House that we need to see a 939 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 940 and Security and Security [Mr Jack Straw] countries. It is only the United Kingdom that has added to those sanctions, through additional, gratuitous efforts restoration of the Geneva arrangements and, critically, that simply hurt United Kingdom companies, not Iran. we need to see Iran brought into that process as well, Let me now turn to Israel and Palestine. Like everybody because there will not be a solution to the problems of else in this House, I have no brief whatever for Hamas. Syria—and therefore to the problems of Iraq—without It was I who introduced the Terrorism Act 2000 and that regional agreement, which yes involves Turkey, but then, as soon as it was on the statute book, ensured that also has to involve Iran. With respect to the right hon. Hamas, along with 20 other terrorist organisations, was Member for Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway), we proscribed as a terrorist organisation. I was right to do will not get a solution in Iraq unless we solve Syria as that then and it is right for it to stay as a terrorist outfit. well, because that border is so porous. Hamas breached every rule in the book by launching Iran has played a constructive part in trying to defeat rockets against the civilian population in Israel, but, as ISIL and in securing the necessary change in Iraq. The the Foreign Secretary said, that cannot conceivably US Administration, as is well known, have been in justify the wholly disproportionate response of the Israelis direct communication with the Iranians and, according in allowing 2,000 mainly innocent men, women and to well sourced reports, are now doing all they can to children to be killed in the way that they did. Whatever reach agreement with Iran in the P5 plus 1 talks on the they say, they did not have a care for the civilian nuclear issue. I greatly welcomed the acts of the Foreign population. Secretary’s predecessor in agreeing in principle to reopen Now, as we have heard, the Israelis have decided to the embassies in Tehran, but those were promised for annex over 1,000 acres of Palestinian land near Bethlehem. May. They were pushed back to August and they have I congratulate the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary now been pushed back to some other date, yet to be on their strong words—this was “utterly deplorable”, defined. I ask the Foreign Secretary: why is this? I know according to the Prime Minister, and illegal under the Iranians are not the easiest partners—a feeling international law—but what I ask is, what are we going which, I should say, is reciprocated by them—but the to do about it? I say, with respect, that the Israelis do Administration in Tehran are under domestic pressure. not care what is said by any western European Government. They have a population desperate for links with the I used to think something different, but it is not the west, and if we build a partnership with them, we can case; provided that this more right-wing and more do a great deal more than we have. extreme Israeli Government have the United States I hope, too, that the British Government will abandon Congress in their pocket, which they do, they do not their view that we should try to punish Iran through care about sentiment here. They would care if we were trade. We are the only Government doing this. As to do what we should be doing, which is to ensure that US-led sanctions against Iran were being tightened, goods produced in the occupied territories with the guess what? Hard-nosed as ever, the United States was label of Israel are treated like any other counterfeit increasing its exports to Iran, to the benefit of its goods and subject to strict rules and additional tariffs. farming and its pharmaceutical companies. In Britain, I am not in favour for a moment of generalised we have been punishing our own companies—nobody boycotts or sanctions against Israel, but I am in favour else—by ensuring that trade with the Iranians plummets. of an EU démarche on Israel to get it to pull back—and if it does not do that, we should withdraw our ambassadors Daniel Kawczynski: I completely concur with the and temporarily downgrade our diplomatic arrangements right hon. Gentleman on that point. A Coventry-based with the country.I am also strongly in favour of recognising company has worked with the Iranians in the past to Palestine as a state with a formal status in the United produce their national state car. That company would Nations. All the things that Israel said would happen if like to do much more work with the Iranians, but we were to do this have happened anyway—and with a because of these policies it is impossible to do so. vengeance. Mr Straw: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Let me turn to the issue of Russia and Ukraine. I intervention. The United States has gone out of its way support the approach that the Government are broadly to assist its own companies to ensure that they exploit, taking in respect of Russia. The brutal truth is that, at as widely as possible, the provisions in the sanctions the moment, Vladimir Putin believes that he is winning regime—including those that were extended in the by his own calculus, because he has more to gain than agreement with Iran of 24 November last year—and to lose in the region than the west does. The annexation take up these opportunities, and western European of the Crimea is now a fait accompli, but I believe that countries are doing the same. Why is Britain failing to over time these sanctions will hurt Russia. It is significantly take these opportunities? economically weaker than we are. Its economy is half our size for a population twice our size, and it is Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): I will over-dependent on energy.As well as maintaining sanctions, be very brief. Just before history gets completely rewritten, we must work out what we can legitimately offer Russia may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he thinks in the final negotiation and, above all, we must start to that pressure on the economy in Iran played any part reduce Europe’s over-dependence on Russian hydrocarbons. whatever in bringing Iran back to the negotiating table That is what lies behind Russia’s belief that it can win. It to talk about its nuclear file? must not be allowed to do so. Mr Straw: I am absolutely certain that it did, but the sanctions, led by the United States, allowed for the 2.22 pm export from the west to Iran of agricultural products, Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): This debate food products and pharmaceuticals. Those concessions covers four of the most complicated, most grave and were exploited by the United States and western European serious threats to our well-being and security that this 941 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 942 and Security and Security country has faced for a very long time. I congratulate Mr Gray: I intend to return to the point that my right those who spoke before me on their brilliance in covering hon. and learned Friend is making in my subsequent all four topics in such restricted time. Three quarters of remarks. However, does he agree that over the last an hour is not really long enough to do so from the 1,000 years, the House has had only two such votes Front Bench. I know my limitations; I have strong views before action has been taken? The first such vote was on all four, but I propose to confine myself to the over Iraq, which I think we are all agreed was a disaster, problems in Iraq and Syria and to jihadist extremism, so a vote in the House of Commons does not necessarily which is probably, in a competitive field, the most lead to a worthwhile war. The second was this time last current and pressing problem and the most dangerous year over Syria. All the other wars—the Falklands, the situation that we face at this very moment. Gulf, the first world war and the second world war—were conducted by the Prime Minister and the Government It seems to me that a great deal of attention is being without approval of the House of Commons. paid, outside the House and in this debate, to whether or not the Government will be supported if they decide Mr Clarke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend—and I to use armed force and take part in the air strikes in am sure the research behind his point will be checked—but which the United States is currently engaged. That is a I really think that in 2014, in the circumstances of very important question, but in my opinion it is somewhat today, to assert that the Executive has the unfettered putting the cart before the horse to make that the main right to take part in military action without getting the question. An answer to that question depends on all approval of the House is simply indefensible. I would kinds of other things being satisfied. personally be outraged by it. I suspect that my view coincides with that of the vast majority here—that we would of course support the use Mr Redwood rose— of British armed force if it was essential, unavoidable, in support of some crucial national interest and in Mr Clarke: I can give way only one more time, so I pursuit of some well thought out and credible policy shall give way to my right hon. Friend. objective. We should have learnt in the last 15 years—when on the whole, American and western policy in the entire Mr Redwood: I am grateful, but surely the point is middle east has been a catastrophe—that leaping into that on the previous occasions of great wars, the House military activity without a well-judged policy, a well-judged was in agreement, so there was no need for a Division. diplomacy and a well-judged strategy has contributed If the Opposition had opposed the decision, there would to the extraordinary state of anarchy that has now have been a vote. broken out across the region. Mr Clarke: I hope that on this occasion, too, we Those problems were not caused by our military could reach such a political consensus in the House of activity or by our armed forces; they were caused by the Commons and across the country and that our debates disastrous politics of the decision to invade Iraq for about the use of armed force would lead to no significant rather naive ideological reasons as far as the Americans division. That would be an ideal outcome, but I think were concerned, and rather contrived and almost that a controversial use of military force in yet another bogus ones as far as the British and some of our allies attempt to intervene in the Arab spring—whether it be were concerned. We have not achieved striking success this time with Shi’ite allies, this time with Sunni allies or in the odd ventures we have made in the use of military this time with whatever outrageous group has emerged— power occasionally in north Africa and the middle east requires a vote. since. Before we use any armed force, we need to know exactly what medium and long-term strategy lies behind In principle, I am all in favour of using military force the politics of the immediate steps that we are going to when it is unavoidable and in the vital national interest. take. I agree that ISIL is one of the most barbaric and outrageous organisations that has emerged on this planet One thing I greatly welcome in the Foreign Secretary’s for some considerable time, so I have no moral scruple excellent speech was what I thought was his pretty clear whatever about the proper use of military force against undertaking that we would not take part in any military them. I would like to see them degraded and destroyed. action without a debate and without the approval of However, when the House votes and debates this sort of Parliament. It is possible to contrive a rather childlike action on whatever occasion, experience shows that we version of our constitutional position and say that the must now have a much clearer idea of our objective. royal prerogative controls the use of military forces. Our objective is not only to protect our security; it That is very attractive to Governments who are a little involves consideration of what will contribute to the uncertain of their majority in the House of Commons restoration of stability and normality across the region. when they want to take action. It means consideration of what will command the support It is true that if there is a sudden surprise attack on a of sane Muslims, sane Shi’a and sane Sunni; what will British possession or on the British military, the Prime get sufficient support from the regional powers, as well Minister can use the royal prerogative to respond instantly, as from the western powers; what kind of order we are without having to wait to recall Parliament, and to trying to put in place. I hope that that does not get order his troops to defend themselves against whatever narrowed down to consideration of whether or not we the threat may be, but the idea that we work out with should join the Americans in air strikes on particular our allies a comprehensive policy and strategy and then installations before or after the mid-term elections in join in military action in support of it without a pretty the United States. convincing vote of approval from the House of Commons John Kerry is engaged in a vital mission which goes would certainly be a political outrage. I think that it to the heart of what I have just said. He is trying to put would be of very dubious legality too. together a regional alliance. In that regard—I agree 943 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 944 and Security and Security [Mr Kenneth Clarke] whole region, including, possibly, Israel-Palestine. We also agree on the need to help local Iraqi and Kurdish with those who have hinted at this—we have to rethink forces to defeat ISIL by air strikes, supplying military where we are starting from. A regional alliance must equipment and other military and intelligence support, include some people with whom we have been enemies, which has clearly been the only force capable of stemming and with whom we have very serious issues on other ISIL’s remorseless and ruthless advance. fronts, because the widest possible support is required. That brings us to the elephant in the room: Syria. The key players, obviously, are Iran and Saudi Arabia. ISIL will not be defeated if it is constantly allowed to They are the two great powers of the region. Many of regroup there, because it is from its Syrian bases that it the troubles have actually been caused by people acting has launched into Iraq. It must be confronted and as proxies for the interests of those two states. They defeated in Syria too, and, like it or not, that means have far more influence on the ground, and on events, engagement with the Syrian regime. No one disagrees than we in the west are likely to have. They know far that Assad is a barbarous, blood-soaked dictator; but more about what is going on. I have been a member of he heads the Syrian Government, and he is backed by the National Security Council for the last two years, approximately 40% of the population. Surely, by now at and I know the limits of our actual knowledge of events least, the United Kingdom Government and the United on the ground in this region. I know that we are States must acknowledge that he is not going to be constantly surprised by the latest utterly extraordinary defeated—not because the Prime Minister was prevented and unpredictable turn of events that sweeps over what by this House from getting his way with air strikes and, we have done. With Iran go Assad and Hezbollah, before that, with arming Assad’s opponents, and not which is a close ally. The Shi’ite militias in Iraq, which because the House said no to pulling Britain into the we call the Iraqi Government, are also very influenced quagmire of the Syrian civil war, trapped between Sunni by the Iranians.. and Shi’a, between ISIL and Assad, between Saudis We just have to accept—without in any way resiling and Iranians in their proxy conflict. Contrary to the line from our criticism about getting involved—that the peddled, regrettably, by the Foreign Secretary today, Saudi Arabians really must deal with the Qatari problem there is no prospect of achieving a transition in Syria of the people whom they support, and also—as my right without negotiating with Assad and his regime, especially hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Sir Nicholas with Russia standing behind it. Our failure to understand Soames) said a moment ago—make absolutely clear that is a major reason why the civil war has been so that they are not supporting, in any way, fringe groups prolonged, and why ISIL has been allowed to flourish. which, in the long term, are as much of a danger to Saudi and Gulf interests as they are to our own. Mr Redwood: What kind of morality is it that says Turkey is a vital player. It is still the nearest that we that if a bully is a successful bully, we should want to be have to a moderate Islamic Government. It has huge friends with him, and completely stand on its head the direct interests; it is threatened; and it is essential to policy of trying to get rid of him? have at least its complicity in what we do, and, I would hope, its support as well. Egypt is also a vital player. It Mr Hain: It is not about befriending Assad; it is has recovered from the outrageous threats of the Arab about the reality of moving forward. If we do not dawn by restoring political dictatorship, but it is nevertheless recognise the reality, we will not move forward, but will a key player. Russia must be kept onside, because it is continue to shout and scream and oppose to no effect also of influence. at all. I am not sure that the states of Iraq and Syria will ever exist again as we know them, but I do think that we Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): The need a political strategy in order to ensure that some right hon. Gentleman seems to be arguing that Bashar kind of long-term stability will replace the anarchy that al-Assad’s main incentive for working with us is the fact we have helped to create so far. that we are worried about terrorism on his eastern frontier. Why would he co-operate rather than leaving Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The those terrorists there, given that they now provide the right hon. and learned Gentleman has used up his time. main underpinning legitimacy of his regime? Why would he work with us on this, sincerely?

2.32 pm Mr Hain: Let me come to that, and explain. Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): I agree with the The Prime Minister has described President Assad as Government that it would be a folly for western powers “illegitimate”, implying that Britain and the United such as Britain to barge in, cowboy-like, and lead the States could act in Syria with impunity. Surely that fight against ISIL; but we do have unique military, position is legally questionable, given that Assad won surveillance and intelligence capabilities which those on recent—admittedly highly manipulated— elections, and the front line do not have, and which should be deployed given that the divided rebel factions do not constitute if—and only if—they request it. That has been the case an alternative Government. Russia, Assad’s ally, would in northern Iraq with the request from the Iraqi be likely to veto any attempt to gain United Nations Government, the Kurds and the minorities which risk authority for air strikes, and Assad can deploy sophisticated extermination by ISIL, and—very significantly, if covertly Russian-made air defence systems and fighter planes. —from Iran. The fact that Iran has given its de facto His air capacity may have been degraded, especially blessing to US air strikes is of seismic importance. It over the parts of Syria that he no longer controls, but it opens up an opportunity for future engagement and is still formidable. I simply do not see how we could collaboration which could be transformative for the mount air strikes—as I believe we must in Syria if we 945 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 946 and Security and Security are to degrade and help to defeat ISIL—without engaging Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. with the regime in some way. That does not mean The House will be only too well aware of the high befriending Assad, and it does not mean legitimising his demand for time to speak and the low supply of time regime in any way. It could mean back-channel contact. available. I must therefore reduce the limit on Back-Bench But whatever the means, a way must be found to clear speeches to six minutes. the path for air strikes. We should also have to engage with Iran, and with Russia—which, again, will be difficult, 2.40 pm especially given Putin’s behaviour in Ukraine, but which is, in my view, essential. Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): We gather here today on the eve of a vote in Scotland that The Government know full well that I have been a could tear the United Kingdom apart after 300 years consistent critic of its Syria policy. I have described it as together, and the question for us—whether in Scotland ill-conceived and ultimately counter-productive, as, indeed, or in foreign policy—is: are we proud of ourselves? Are I believe events have proved it to be. However, we do not we serious? have to agree on that to find common ground over the urgent need for us to act in order to tackle the barbarous We look around the world, from Kabul to Tripoli, mediaeval threat of ISIL, and to act now. from Damascus to Baghdad to Kiev, and we see the wreck of international foreign policy over the last 20 years. As for Ukraine, I think that Europe’s and NATO’s So lamentable is that wreck that it is hardly worth further push right up to Russia’s front door is ill-advised. holding the House’s attention to list the fiascos that we Western political bluster, military bombast and tit-for-tat see today. The Afghan economy has gone into a 40% sanctions will not resolve the problem. Why not instead contraction since January this year, and the two Presidents press for a negotiated agreement, however difficult? are in a stand-off on the basis of ethnic divisions, and it Under such an agreement, Ukraine would be militarily has not even been raised seriously in this House. In neutral, which would mean no membership of NATO, Tripoli, the Misrata militia have been dabbling their and certainly no Russian military pact. Ukraine’s status toes in the American embassy swimming pool three would be comparable to that of Finland, but, obviously, years after our intervention. In Iraq, following a surge without membership of the European Union. It would on which the US Government spent $420 billion and be guaranteed by Moscow and Washington. There would deployed over 100,000 troops a year, we are now confronted be no further NATO encirclement or enlargement around with the re-emergence of something even worse than Russia’s borders, in return for no illegal or aggressive General Petraeus confronted in 2007. And people have moves by Russia in Ukraine, Moldova or any of its spoken much more eloquently than myself about the other neighbours. I think that that should be part of a fiasco we currently face in Ukraine. geopolitical deal with the European Union too, in which it, like NATO, would recognise limits to its eastward So lamentable is this problem that we should not do what it would be tempting to do, which is to learn the expansion. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] I am now being cheered by the Eurosceptics whom I continually lessons of this and talk about our mistakes, look at the oppose, as a pro-European, but I still believe that that is limits of our knowledge, our power and our legitimacy, the right policy. and confront the fact that we are not good enough in this country at seeing what we cannot do, what we do Europe’s March 2014 agreement with Ukraine should not know and what, frankly, people do not want us to be revisited, to offer a reciprocal agreement between do. So lamentable is the situation that instead of Russia and Ukraine with guarantees for Moscow on emphasising humility, we in fact need to rediscover our both trade and political co-operation. Trade and confidence and our energy. A time has come, in fact, to co-operation agreements with those countries—including rebuild, and rebuilding the seriousness of this country Ukraine—is desirable, but not full European Union means acknowledging failure and regaining public membership. I believe that such a strategy offers a far trust by showing people that we have learned the lessons more promising route to ending the current mutually of where we went wrong, and then investing in our damaging conflict that has engulfed Ukraine; but, institutions. again, it does not mean treating Putin as a buddy. It does not mean endorsing his nakedly manipulative My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for aggression, his authoritarianism or his shameful human Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) pointed out that on the National rights record. It simply means acknowledging that Russia’s Security Council it is quite difficult to know what is backyard matters greatly to it, just as ours does to us. happening in the world, and that is not very surprising Then we might be able to build stability and peace in because, despite our grand protestations about how we that region. are going to remodel the world from Mali to central Africa, in fact our capacity—the number of people in As will be apparent, I have big areas of agreement defence intelligence within the Foreign Office—is with the Government’s approach but big areas of pathetically poor. The entire extra capacity committed disagreement as well, especially on Syria and the whole to Syria was a single SMS1 officer, a D7 and a D6. approach to the middle east region, and also in terms of When the crisis broke out in Russia and Ukraine, we Russia and Ukraine. I do hope the Government will discovered that the United Kingdom had cancelled its think again about these matters. I think there is a Russian analysis section in the defence intelligence service prospect of moving forward in both areas. It is going to and we had to move the South Caucasus officer over to be very difficult, and there will be all sorts of setbacks, Crimea. When I and my hon. Friend the Member for but I am confident—I am absolutely certain—that pursuing Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) turned up in the policy we are currently pursuing will bring no Kurdistan two weeks ago, we discovered a single consul practical and positive results at all. general who did not have the staff or the resources to visit any of the refugee camps or make it to the front Several hon. Members rose— line. 947 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 948 and Security and Security [Rory Stewart] system? How much risk are we prepared to take? How many sacrifices are we really prepared to make to We need to get out of a situation in which only three confront Putin over Ukraine? of our 15 ambassadors in the middle east speak Arabic. Unless we rediscover the ability to focus on what we We need to understand that our Foreign Office has a can do and what we ought to do, this foreign policy, budget half that of the French Foreign Office and which should be a theatre of heroism, will instead be a considerably smaller than the amount we commit to the narrow stage for impotence, self-flattery and oblivion. winter fuel allowance. Before any of us go around talking about our brilliant strategy for Ukraine or Iraq, 2.48 pm we should begin rebuilding those basic institutions: we should challenge the Government, and challenge the John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): Opposition, to commit immediately more resources towards It is an honour to follow that distinguished speech by policy and analysis and understanding of what is going my constituency neighbour the Defence Committee on on the ground, because there are no options for Chair, the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border Ministers and there are no scenarios we can discuss in (Rory Stewart). I wholeheartedly endorse his analysis of this House unless we understand the situation on the the need to repair our nation’s capacity to act. In the ground. short time available to me, I shall focus on why I think that is important. Mr Hain: I support the hon. Gentleman’s point about A year on from Parliament rejecting action in Syria, resourcing the Foreign Office—and the Foreign Secretary here we are again, wracked with uncertainty and warning may agree on that, too. The budget cuts, which started ourselves of dire consequences if we intervene or if we under the Labour Government, have been remorselessly sit back, and we have a Prime Minister who has seemed pursued under the hon. Gentleman’s Government. For trapped by the fiasco of the chaotic vote last year and a lot of other Whitehall Departments the Foreign Office his hasty decision to rule out all military action in its budget is not even petty cash, but the cuts have been aftermath. Some are attempting to rewrite history on disastrous in their effect on the Foreign Office’s capabilities. that vote, suggesting we were being asked to intervene on the side of the murderous butchers who have now Rory Stewart: I thank the right hon. Gentleman very gained a foothold in Iraq. Some, such as the right hon. much for his intervention. As he knows, this is not and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), have simply a question of resources; it is also a question of made the argument that every time we go in we seem to the priority we put on policy analysis and challenge. It make it worse, so better to leave well alone, but that is a is about the people we promote and the people we hold counsel of despair. accountable when they fail, and it is about a seriousness By failing to intervene in Syria when President Assad within the institution about getting to grips with these used chemical weapons against his own people we issues. abandoned the moderate, democratic Syrian opposition We all roughly understand what a solution to ISIL in who were bravely fighting both the brutal regime and Iraq would look like in theory—a regional solution, the ISIL insurgency that was, at that time, being covertly which people have talked about, and a political solution bolstered by Assad himself to cloud the thinking of the on the ground using the Sunni tribes against ISIL—but west and distract his main internal enemy. these are not things that can be resolved here on a whiteboard. They are things that entirely depend on Mr Kenneth Clarke: I must have expressed myself being on the ground. There is the question of exactly very badly, given the hon. Gentleman’s parody of what I what Qatar’s role is in this and how we can shift its said. The gravity of the problem is such that we are fully position, the question of what we can get from Saudi justified in using military force in support of international Arabia, and the question of how we deal with the fact order and, in particular, of our own interests. What I that foreign fighters are coming out of Turkey and oil is said was that that would work only when accompanied going back into Turkey. Those elements of the regional by a background of well thought-through policy and solution are not theory; they are practice. They are the diplomacy leading to long-term stability. The failure in practice of defence attachés and diplomats on the ground the past has been to leap into military action first and working day in, day out. The question of how to use the then find that events have run away from us. It is wrong Sunni tribes against ISIL is, again, no theory; it is about to suggest that I have suddenly become a pacifist and this Sunni tribe or sheikh, that Sunni tribe or sheikh, isolationist. The worry is that, if we are not careful, all this weapon, that money, this long-term strategy. The our failures will make the public become more isolationist question of what the Iraqi Government are is not about and pacifist. generic statements about legitimacy or inclusiveness; it is about questions such as, “What is the role of Ibrahim John Woodcock: I offer my humble apologies to the Jaafari in this Government, and are any of these Sunnis right hon. and learned Gentleman. I think I got carried who are currently standing for the Iraqi Government away by the melody of his words, and I am glad that he actually credible?” has set the record straight for the House. The questions in Ukraine are the same kinds of Leaving the moderates to their fate allowed ISIL to questions. We can create the theoretical framework, but pour into rebel-held areas in north-east Syria and establish in the end we need some moral principles behind us. a stronger base from which it has been able to spread What do we make of this man Putin? Such questions and grow into the monster that we see today. Perhaps can only be answered by looking at our own values. most importantly of all, it sent a message to the extremists What kind of moral obligation do we feel we have to the that we simply no longer had the will to take a stand. Ukrainian people? What kind of obligation do we feel President Obama drew a red line over chemical weapons we have to the international order or the international use, and it was crossed. What happened? Not a great deal. 949 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 950 and Security and Security Let us remind ourselves of what has happened in Mr Gray: The hon. Gentleman draws our attention Syria over the past year. About 10.8 million people now to the absolute commitment to article 5 made at the require humanitarian aid and 9 million have been displaced. NATO conference at the weekend. He will be aware that Also, 3 million refugees have spilled over to the country’s article 5 specifies that armed intervention would require neighbours, overwhelming Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon, a collective response. Does he believe that an asymmetric and winter is coming. The public are understandably approach, such as that used by Putin in Ukraine, would weary of perpetual conflict, but they also rightly demand commission an article 5 moment? that we do what is necessary to keep Britain safe. That is necessary if we value our way of life, our personal Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman raises an issue security and our living standards sustained through that requires more than five minutes’ discussion, but he trade with other nations. If we value those things, we underlines the point that I was trying to make. We need have no choice but to confront this evil, this perversion to be clear about the definition of our commitment of the true faith of Islam. under article 5 and understand what it really means, The only choice will not be whether we intervene, but and we need to communicate that to all the parties when and how. The longer we delay, the greater the involved. threat will become and the more we will ultimately have For the people of Russia, there is also a risk. There is to sacrifice to defeat it. The next 9/11—or worse—will a risk of economic decline, of diplomatic confrontation come, and it will happen with us knowing that, had we and of a descent at domestic level into a kind of acted sooner, we could in all likelihood have prevented quasi-democratic authoritarianism. I pay tribute to those it. That would be the real betrayal of those who have within the Russian political system who are brave enough lost their lives fighting for their country. It would also to confront Putin and his tendencies. They include be an abdication of our responsibility to lead. members of the Liberal Democrats’ sister party, Yabloko, Britain should therefore be at the forefront of efforts who are being profoundly brave in challenging Putinism to engage in an international coalition to prevent ISIL in Russia. from creating a permanent state intent on jihad against For the international community, the crisis puts at the west. We should be planning not only for the risk 70 years of painstaking building of a rules-based military action that is needed to beat back the immediate international system. In the 20th century, millions of threat but for a concerted international effort to create lives were lost in two world wars, and in the 19th century, the environment that moderate forces in the region need countless lives were lost in conflicts between the great to bring greater stability to the middle east, and we powers and as a result of the interplay between people should be helping them to eliminate the social, economic exercising the principle that might was right. We hope and political conditions that allow the extremists to that the 21st century will be a century of peace, in which thrive. ISIL’s twisted ideology is the greatest threat to the authority of the United Nations and international global security and to our values since Nazi Germany law are established and in which nations stand by their and, as happened at the time of the rise of the Nazis, we international obligations. We can now see, however, that will all ultimately be held to account for what we did, or that precious creation is perhaps more fragile than we did not do, to confront the threat when we had the had realised. chance. 2.54 pm Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): We have heard a compelling speech from the Chair of the Defence Select Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I shall try to Committee, the hon. Member for Penrith and The rise to the challenge of fitting as many major international Border (Rory Stewart), about the importance of investing crises into six minutes as other hon. Members have in our own institutions. Is my hon. Friend suggesting managed to do so well. that we also desperately need to invest in the legitimacy In Ukraine, we face a profound crisis on a number of and authority of international institutions such as NATO levels. For the people of Ukraine, it is clearly a great and the chemical weapons convention, so that we have humanitarian disaster. For the Ukrainian nation already legitimate frameworks within which to intervene in suffering the annexation of Crimea, there is the continued these situations? risk of the loss of territory and the establishment of a Russian puppet state within its borders. The independence Martin Horwood: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. of the Ukrainian nation, which is guaranteed by the United Kingdom through the Budapest memorandum, One of the most welcome aspects of the NATO could be rendered meaningless by military and economic summit was the firm declaration on defence spending, intimidation from its more powerful neighbour. which I hope will reverse the tendency across other For the free countries of eastern Europe, particularly NATO countries to reduce defence budgets and encourage the Baltic states, this crisis has resurrected old fears of all NATO countries to meet the 2% defence spending Soviet-style intervention and domination. I welcome target. The patience of the American electorate will not the consensus in the House and in the NATO declaration be endless with regard to providing an ever-greater at the weekend on the absolute article 5 commitment to share of NATO spending. Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia. To draw a really ominous I look forward to EU Councils reinforcing our historical parallel without being too melodramatic, commitment to economic sanctions and to effective we need to communicate that absolute commitment action in the face of Russian aggression in Ukraine. It much more clearly than our predecessors did 100 years has been difficult for member states to build a consensus ago to the central powers. The misunderstanding and on that question, given that some economies are extremely underestimation of people’s willingness to react was a vulnerable to Russian retaliation, but we need the European major contributor to the July crisis that led to the first Union to be as robust in its response as NATO has been world war. at the weekend. 951 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 952 and Security and Security [Martin Horwood] of papers that should guide what a proper security and defence review should look like. One report was entitled We are seeing a profound crisis across the Muslim “Intervention: Why, When and How?” and in the context world—an “arc of instability”, as the Foreign Secretary of today’s debate it may be useful to remind the House has described it. Only four years ago, many of us were of the conclusions we drew. The report states: thrilled by the Arab awakening, which seemed to emulate “As a starting point the Government must articulate a realistic the gradual revolutions of eastern Europe, the Caucasus, vision of the UK’s place in the world, its level of strategic Latin America and Africa, all of which have suffered influence and the way the world is changing as well as the reverses as well. Those movements all demonstrated identification and prioritisation of the risks to it. The next Defence that a commitment to human rights and democracy was and Security Review should then translate this vision into defence planning assumptions and the development of the appropriate a universal characteristic of people in the modern world. force structure. This would assist more strategic decisions on why, These are not western values; they are human values when and how to intervene.” that we should champion in all parts of the world. It is right to say that in the current world we cannot Democrats in many of those Arab awakening revolutions have the perfect plan. As the great strategist Mike confronted very traditional, authoritarian dictators and, Tyson put it, “You have a plan and then someone in doing so, they found some convenient but perhaps punches you in the face.” We can respond to being uncomfortable allies, in various shades of political Islamism. punched in the face in a way that is strategic only if we In Egypt, the Islamists in the relatively more moderate have some framework within which we operate. That Muslim Brotherhood rose to elected power, but, framework has to be a clear definition of what we think unfortunately, the incompetent Morsi Government inspired our national interests are. We then need a plan that it is almost a counter-revolution and we are now back in an possible to put into action. It is no good having a list of authoritarian situation. In Syria, as we know, the murderous aspirations if they do not give us any means of acting. Assad regime reacted to the Arab awakening with We then require the disciplined community to put the uncompromising brutality of a kind that we probably actions into effect, which also requires an assessment of could not have imagined was possible, so the Islamists our capacity. . were alongside democrats in confronting that regime. I The problems caused by an absence of a proper am sorry to say that the Islamists have got more and strategy have been shown in many ways in today’s more extreme, and they have gathered more and more debate. We talk about air strikes, but bombing is not a resources and financial and military support from elsewhere. strategy. Why are we even considering those air strikes? We have allowed our fears of repeating the mistakes of We debated no-fly zones over and air strikes on Libya, Iraq, of body bags and of improvised explosive devices, and the error we made was in thinking that removing and our understandable weariness of war, to result in Gaddafi meant “job done”. Instead, it should have been our failing the democratic opposition in Syria in many the first step for further strategic implementation of a respects; the Islamists have gained the upper hand. long-term plan. We talk about NATO as if it was not a That situation should never, however, lead us to believe membership organisation but an alternative body to that those moderate democratic Arabs do not exist—that which we defer. We are NATO! May I also remind the the democratic opposition is non-existent. Our inaction House that the big mistake we make is that we regard has had consequences for them, and it has led this this country as the second most important member of country to have a policy across the Arab world that has NATO? The UK is not, because the second most important at times looked very inconsistent, fragmented and reactive. member, after the United States, is Turkey. Let us We need a strategy, and it should be to stop looking for consider what the world looks like from the point of perfection and start to identify those moderate Arab view of Turkey. It has the Black sea on one side, Syria democrats across the region who share a basic commitment on the other. Turkey is the country of the fall-out of the to pluralism, democracy and peaceful change. That Ottoman empire and the Sykes-Picot agreement. That includes the democratically elected Governments of is all now coming back to haunt Turkey and those Turkey, Lebanon, Kurdistan—I am talking not just around it. Let us be clear that NATO makes decisions about Arabs of course, but about those within the and that we are part of the decision making. region—and, we hope, those of Iraq and Libya, if its Let us also be clear that the problems we face in the Government can be sustained. It also includes democratic eastern Mediterranean at the moment relate to whether leaders such as Mahmoud Abbas in Palestine. The the Sykes-Picot agreement is falling apart. If it is, what inconsistency of British policy there is also very obvious, do we do about it? In 1916, Britain was the guardian of and Palestinian statehood and a re-examination of the that agreement, whereas after world war two the United association agreement with Israel have to be part of States was. From what we can see, the United States is delivering dividends for a progressive democratic Arab now no longer willing or able to be that guardian, so leader in that part of the region, too. that role must be played through a restoration of functioning nation states within that area which can deliver things. 3.2 pm Some of the states there are functioning: Iran, Israel, Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): It Turkey and, for the moment, Jordan. It is crucial that is beautiful to follow the hon. Member for Cheltenham we continue supporting Jordan. The question is how do (Martin Horwood), because he calls for a strategy and we support the countries in between to become functioning then delivers a list of tactical responses which do not nation states? If we end up with the creation of a amount to a strategy. caliphate and that is the solution, we will be haunted for Tonight’s debate is not just about Ukraine and the centuries to come. middle east, because, as we can see from the Order This process requires not only military weapons, but Paper, it is about a number of reports by the Defence weapons of the mind. Bombing is an element of defeating Committee. We on that Committee were looking ahead people militarily, but in the long term this is a battle for to the strategic review in 2015 and produced a number the minds and hearts of a generation. We can win that 953 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 954 and Security and Security battle only if we have a strategy that involves our own that we need to answer before we can get involved in values. If we cannot define where we want to go, we will military action: what does a good outcome look like; be incapable of ever knowing whether we have arrived. are we able to engineer a good outcome; do we have to If we just make a little list of things to do, we are just be part of such engineering; and how much future like a fifth-former with a shopping list, so we should liability do we want to hold as a consequence? clearly explain why we are doing things. Let me give one What is clear is that our allies in the region simply do example. A week ago, it was, apparently, not in Britain’s not have all the military capabilities they require to deal national interest to arm the Kurds, and many Labour with ISIS on the ground. They do not have the ability to Members thought that was wrong, but yesterday we are make the strategic air attacks that will deal with command told that we are now doing so. The Government must and control and the ISIS supply lines. If it comes to a learn to explain their actions within the framework of ground counter-offensive, they will require close air Britain’s national interest to this House so that we can support. There is no point in us trying to will the give informed consent. outcome without being prepared to will the means. I I hope that the Minister will tell us what we think was very impressed, as I always am, by the hon. Member about the illegal annexation of Crimea, because we for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) who, like my have fallen very quiet on that. The former Foreign hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Rory Stewart), spoke about a battle of ideas. We must (Mr Straw), said that it was a fait accompli. It may be understand that this battle, like all battles, is one of that, but I would be deeply saddened if that was the ideology, and we must be careful about the western Government’s starting position. liberal tendency to allow wishful thinking to overtake critical analysis. 3.8 pm We need to understand one thing, which is that there Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): A number of are people out there who hate us. They do that not things about ISIS are clear: it is well funded; it is very because of what we do or where we intervene but well organised; and it has a comprehensive, complex because of who we are and what we stand for—our and sophisticated communications strategy. None of values, our system of Government and our belief in those things happened overnight, and it is legitimate for basic rights. us to ask why we did not pick up on some of those trends earlier. Did we know about ISIS? Were we aware Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): My right hon. that ISIS is, in the Prime Minister’s words, the greatest Friend is making a very impassioned speech with which threat to us in a generation? If we were aware, why did I agree. May I just take him—[Interruption.] Iamso we not act sooner? If we did not know, we need to ask sorry but I do not feel well. questions of our intelligence and diplomatic services, but they are questions for another time. We also know clearly the sort of threats that ISIS Dr Fox: I hope that my hon. Friend feels better. poses. We have seen the humanitarian threat to those All conflicts are battles of ideology. That is particularly unfortunate enough to fall within the territory it controls true of those who return from the region having been and the barbaric ways in which people have been treated. involved in jihad in support of ISIS. When the Home We are clear about the threat of destabilisation to the Secretary winds up the debate, I hope she will make it region and the fact that ISIS potentially threatens an clear that in this country we have no place for the all-out religious war in one of the world’s most unstable concept that someone can take a sabbatical from civilisation regions. We are also aware that it could become the and then apologise and come back as though nothing university of jihad if it is allowed to establish a caliphate, has happened. There has to be a price for those who and that will be exported to countries such as the take up arms against their own country by proxy. United Kingdom. It is also clear that we in the west My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The must accept the failures in our foreign policy, not least Border made an interesting point about resourcing our with Iraq where we have indulged and over-tolerated security services. It is worth mentioning that we spend the Maliki Government when it was clear that they were on GCHQ, the security services and Secret Intelligence failing in their promise and their duty to establish a Service in a year what we spend every six days on the Government of national unity. national health service. As a country, we must think The question is what do we do to deal with ISIS in about our priorities and just how high up that level of the immediate future and then in the longer term. As priority the security of our people is. Supposedly, that is has been said, we need to deal with it financially. It is the first duty of Government. difficult to stop oil being sold on the black market, but we must try and try harder with our allies who might be able to exert some leverage. We need to stop the flow of Sir Nicholas Soames I entirely agree with my right finances through the international banking system and hon. Friend. Does he agree that the tragedy of that is ensure that ransoms are not paid. Paying a ransom is that those services are some of the most important to financing jihad, and we must not do that no matter how this country and feature so very largely in some of our difficult that is. We must stop the double dealing of most important relationships? some of the countries and groups in the region that are making it extremely difficult for ourselves and our allies Dr Fox: I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend. to bring this matter to a successful conclusion. Sometimes it is tempting for Governments to spend on Then there is the question of whether we should things that we can see rather than on things that we involve ourselves in military action. As I and many cannot see, but those things may not be of equal importance others have said before, there are a number of questions when it comes to the well-being of our country. 955 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 956 and Security and Security Mr Straw: Does the right hon. Gentleman also accept has a role to play in opening up dialogue on the long-term that the welcome decision by both parties to have a issues. Russia is a member of it. I wish to hear more larger aid programme cannot be a substitute for money about the Council of Europe—our place in it and its spent on the more difficult areas of intelligence and role in the difficulties that exist in eastern Europe—because diplomacy? As our aid programme increases so too it is tasked with the responsibility of promoting human must our diplomatic programme. rights and respect for the rule of law, and building democracy, and those are precisely the kind of issues Dr Fox: I would go further and say that our national that are at stake in relation to the situation in Ukraine, security and the need for hard power in a hard world Moldova and Georgia. should, in a time of financial constraints, take precedence over our aid programme. Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Some I was involved in an interesting discussion at a meeting pastors and deacons from Ukraine visited Northern in Paris. I asked why it was that during the cold war we Ireland. Recently, one of those pastors was shot and were willing to use the term “better” when it came to two of the deacons were tortured and killed. What our values. For example, we would say that democracy should the Government be doing to aid those displaced was better than totalitarian rule, free markets were and suffering Christians? better than command economies and freedom was better than oppression. But when it comes to debates about Mr Donaldson: Whether in Ukraine and eastern Europe Islamic fundamentalism, we are not willing to use the or the middle east, there is a recurring theme of religious word “better”. I believe that religious tolerance is better intolerance and the persecution of religious minorities. than enforced orthodoxy, and that equal rights for We saw that not only in Ukraine, but especially in the women are better than women being second-class citizens. middle east—the Christian minority has been targeted When I raised that point, I was told, “Well, nowadays, Syria, Iraq, Libya and other countries in the region. we can’t really say ‘better’. Things are just different.” If The religious persecution of the Yazidi minority in we believe that our values are different and not better, northern Iraq had devastating consequences. why should we believe, let alone convince anyone else, that they should follow what we have? We in the west We want the UK Government to take a robust position are what we are not by accident but because of the value against ISIS and Islamic extremism, and we are prepared path that we have chosen to take. All the battles that we to support military action where that is required. We will face are to do with ideology, belief and values. It is hope the Government will consult the House as the not the capability of the west—of this country or the need arises. United States—that has been called into question; it is It is right to support the Iraqi army and the Kurdish our will to enforce what we believe by peaceful means or peshmerga forces. I welcome the Government’s important others. If we are not willing to stand up for our values decision to provide heavy armaments to them, but the as a country, we will not only fail to shape the era of point was made about Turkey. We need to reassure globalisation but diminish ourselves in the longer term. Turkey that, in arming the peshmerga, there are not longer-term consequences for the situation between Turkey 3.15 pm and the Kurds. It is a complex situation and we realise Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): In that the decisions that need to be made are difficult and addition to being a member of the Defence Committee challenging. under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Penrith The hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory and The Border (Rory Stewart), I also chair the Causeway Stewart) made an excellent speech and some valid points. Institute, a small non-governmental body in Northern Democratic Unionist party Members endorse the view Ireland, which is involved in peace building in the that there is a need to ensure that the Foreign Office and region. the security services, our eyes and ears throughout the I welcome the opportunity to have this debate and world, are properly resourced. Like many hon. Members, support the broad thrust of the Government’s approach I have seen the valuable work that our diplomats and on these issues. In Ukraine and in eastern Europe security services undertake in foreign places. That work generally, it is important that we stand alongside our is vital to our national security, and properly resourcing friends and that we recognise what Russia is trying to it is important. do. We are talking about not just Crimea and eastern Countering the narrative of the extremists is also Ukraine, but what Russia has been doing for some time important. One difficulty is the lack of consensus among in places such as Transnistria, Moldova, South Ossetia western nations and others on how we should do that and Abkhazia in Georgia. There is a deliberate strategy and on what the counter-narrative should be. Our narrative to foment conflict and then for those conflicts to be is about religious tolerance and respect for human frozen in a way that creates instability and gives the rights, but we need to find a way to communicate it, Russians influence in those regions. especially to young people in those countries through The role of Poland is important. I was there just last social media and so on. We should support locally weekend, and heard how concerned it is about what is based organisations that work to counter the extremists’ happening in Ukraine. It is vital that we stand alongside narrative, such as the Arab Network for Tolerance, a countries such as Poland and the Baltic states. We need small, modest organisation that seeks to promote respect to reassure them that we will not countenance any for human rights, religious tolerance and so on in Arab situation in which they may face attack or incursion on countries. It is important that we do our bit to ensure to their territory. that such organisations have support from the UK. We have mentioned the role of the European Union, Yes, the use of hard power is necessary at times, but but I have heard nothing about the role of the Council support for what we do on a soft-power level is critical. of Europe, which embraces most of eastern Europe and We need to counter the narrative and explain our role in 957 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 958 and Security and Security the world. How can we be involved with our allies in We also do enormous damage to their economy, so championing the cause of human rights and respect for there are fewer ways for the people who believe in peace religious freedom, and in promoting tolerance? The UK and our values to earn an honest living, carry on a has a leadership role to play in that, whether in eastern normal life and create the kind of society we would like Europe or the middle east. We will continue to support to live in. the efforts of the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence If the previous two questions have been answered in and others in taking the battle against the extremists the right way—if diplomacy cannot work, and if force forward. might make things better—the third question our Government should ask before using force is this: do we 3.23 pm have the force necessary to do the task? We must not Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): We should send our forces into battle if there is a danger or a talk more and bomb less. I say that as someone who serious risk that they cannot win. We do not have that wants us to have strong defences. I want our country to luxury when we are defending our country, but when we play a leading role in the world and to be available, are deciding whether to intervene somewhere else, we with the UN and allies, or if necessary on our own, have the luxury of asking whether we can win, or to reinforce our values. I accept that there are occasions whether we can win with the right allies. We should when we have to fight a just war. We were right to want the odds to be very heavily tipped in favour of liberate Kuwait with our allies, and we were right to success if we are interfering in somebody else’s country. liberate the Falklands, but we need to ask ourselves There are common characteristics to the current conflicts some hard questions about some of the military and civil wars. Ukraine, Libya, Syria and Iraq all have interventions we have made under Governments of the same basic problem: fledgling or difficult democracies both parties in recent years. do not command the support of all the people in the I am glad that the Government accept that we can go country. Many people believe that their state does not to war only if the House approves such action, which I have the right borders. Many people believe that their think has always been the case, and I am glad that they current Government, be it a tyrant or an allegedly recognise that that is the most serious thing we can do. democratic Government, do not speak for all the people We have the power, collectively, to authorise our troops or protect the minorities. Many people inside Ukraine, to go to kill other people in a foreign country. That is a Iraq or Libya do not believe that there is a solution for very serious thing to do, and it should be done only them inside their countries as they are currently constituted. after full debate and, if necessary, on a vote of the Surely, as the mother of Parliaments, with our democracy House to show that it has at least majority approval—it and our knowledge that one proceeds by debates, argument is even better when there is consensus. and votes, not bullets and bombs, we need to put a lot To guide the Government, whether we are approaching more effort into talking those people through how such a position again or not, they should ask themselves democracy works and into trying to work with them to these questions. First, are they sure that diplomacy and see whether it is possible to get consent from enough politics have broken down completely and that there is people to these arbitrary borders, which were probably no further scope for diplomacy and politics to carry the drawn on the map by us 100 years ago under very problem forward and try to make it better? War is not a different circumstances, or whether they need to have good answer. It is what happens when politics and ballots, as Scotland currently is, to see whether they diplomacy fail. want to remain in these countries. I am not going to presume and I do not have the time to redraw lines on Secondly, after we win a war—even if we have had a maps, as that must come from the politicians in those great victory, as the allies had in 1918—we need to go localities, but the tools to solve these problems are back to politics and diplomacy and get it right. Otherwise, arguments, discussions, debates, pamphlets, the internet we might find that we have created a worse monster that and votes—what we believe in—not bombs and bullets. requires yet more conflict, as we are in danger of We should be very careful before we either supply them proving in the middle east. The west has the power to with more bombs and bullets or go in thinking that we get rid of a regime it does not like, but it does not know the right people to kill. necessarily have the power to support and create a democratic regime in its place that has the acceptance 3.29 pm of enough people in the country to keep it together and make it a better place. It is not a win if we get rid of a Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): I spent seven years nasty dictator and replace them with warring bands as special envoy on human rights in Iraq, so I visited the who kill even more people. country on many occasions and would like to welcome We need to get the Government to ask whether the new Government, who have a very difficult task. diplomacy has failed and whether the situation is one in They still have to deal with long-standing problems which the use of force, if successful, is likely to make the such as the sharing of oil revenues, disputed territory situation better. If we are going to use force, can we and arguments over decentralisation as well as much please have a diplomatic and political strategy for the needed reform of the armed forces. As one commentator aftermath of successful military engagement? We need argues, those who hope that a new Government in Iraq to know what military success looks like, but more will transform the state’s ability to take on ISIS should importantly, we need to know how military success not hold their breath. leads to a happier country, democratic values, tolerance One commentator who frequently appears before the and toleration, and all the things we believe in. When Foreign Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, is we inject more weapons and fighting into a situation, Jane Kinninmont of Chatham House. She points out we normally make people not more tolerant, but more that our long history of involvement in that country is intolerant. We make them not happier, but more resentful. not a happy one: 959 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 960 and Security and Security [Ann Clwyd] 3.35 pm

“pinning all the blame on Maliki conveniently absolves the US Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): There is one and UK of responsibility for helping to create a political system thing on which every single speaker in this debate and where violence and sectarianism are the usual mechanisms for everyone who is watching it from outside will agree—at staying in power. Over the past 30 years, the west first supported this moment we live in an extraordinarily dangerous, and armed a genocidal dictator, then crippled the country with difficult and complex world, a world we do not understand sanctions that failed to remove him, then invaded the country and and in which all our livelihoods, interests and ways of dismantled the state and army. After 2003, the US and UK helped life are under threat. I pay absolute tribute to the very design a system of sectarian ‘power-sharing’ where ‘power-sharing’ means carving up government ministries—made extremely lucrative heavyweight, well informed and passionate speeches by raging corruption—between a tiny elite drawn from each that we have heard so far, typified by the right hon. ethnicity and sect.” Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who has great Given that the full-scale invasion and occupation for knowledge of Iraq. several years from 2003 onwards struggled to pacify I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member Iraq, air strikes alone are not likely to succeed. After all, for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). I stood ISIS controls large amounts of territory, population against him for the post of Chairman of the Defence and natural resources and is consequently far better Committee, and this is my first opportunity to say that I funded than the Sunni resistance that so troubled US am very glad he won. He is doing an extremely good job forces after the 2003 invasion. What is more, air strikes of it and I congratulate him on that. are likely to result in civilian casualties as ISIS forces I hope that I will not reduce the high quality of the hide among the civilian population. That is conceivably debate if I do not focus on Ukraine, Syria or the rest of its aim: to provoke the west into military action that the difficulties mentioned in the topic of this debate as hurts Muslim civilians, thus supporting its narrative of much as on two procedural points. I hope they will not the west’s war on Islam. be unduly dry for the House, but there are many others The speed and scale of the crisis mean that Iraq is better qualified than I to speak on the substantive now coping with one of the largest internally displaced matters that we are debating. populations in the world. Before the current crisis, there First, I very much welcome the fact that we have this were already thousands of refugees in Iraq, including full day’s substantive debate. That would not be the case more than 200,000 Syrians who had fled the civil war in if it had not been announced by the Prime Minister their country.The national Government and the Kurdistan during PMQs last week and that is quite wrong. We Regional Government, in an area where many refugees usually have to compete with Backbench Business and IDPs are located, have been overwhelmed by the Committee debates on very worthy and worthwhile scale of the need. Iraqi non-governmental organisations things such as animals in circuses. We used to have full, have also been struggling to cope with a massive increase substantive debates in this House on foreign affairs and in the number of people needing their assistance. on defence, and I very much hope that we can find a Following the fighting and deliberate targeting of way of returning to those days. At times like this, we civilians, particularly minorities, and the widespread ought to be certain that we can have full debates on violence and atrocities against men, women and children, these matters. protection remains a key concern. Many survivors of the violence have lost everything and are deeply traumatised. The second procedural matter I want to raise involves Although it is the Government’s responsibility to protect me in what might be described as a putative declaration citizens from harm, NGOs and other humanitarian of interests. Later this afternoon I will be launching a actors work to ensure that the most vulnerable are book that I have written entitled, “Who Takes Britain taken care of and have access to services. As well as the to War?” I have not earned a single penny from it so far. need for food, water, sanitation and health care, the Indeed, most of my friends probably reckon that I will need for shelter is paramount. At present, more than not earn very many pennies from it in future either, and 30% of the displaced people are living with host may never have to declare it. None the less, it is pertinent communities or in schools or religious buildings. Only to the remarks that I intend to make. 4% are in camp settings. The most at-risk groups are It is very easy to say that we should have a vote in this minority populations with few or no established links House before we deploy soldiers. Of course, that is an with the host communities as well as those living in easy and a populist thing to say—most people would abandoned buildings, in overcrowded conditions or in agree with it. In the past 500 years, we have taken part the open. The approaching winter in the north is a in umpteen wars. There is only one year since the particular concern as people will face harsh conditions. second world war when a British soldier has not been In a very good report from Amnesty International, killed on active service—1968. In every other year we people who are on the ground at the moment described have lost a British soldier on active service. We have the terrible living conditions: taken part in dozens of wars over the years, but on only “While we are there, a truck arrives and hands out…mattresses, two occasions have there been substantive votes prior to but there are not enough to go around. A group of children fight the deployment of troops. The first was in 2003, when over the last mattress; it ends in tears for those who will spend Mr Blair took us to war in Iraq; there were three votes another night on hard ground. Many of the children have no on that occasion. I suspect that not a single person shoes and the adults ask us to take photos of the swollen, broken, listening to this debate believes that that was the right hard skin on their feet, to show the world what they are experiencing.” thing to have done. The second vote was this time last I believe that we have a moral responsibility to act year, on Syria. It may well have had the right outcome, quickly to support the communities who have been but frankly it was something of a procedural shambles, displaced. That is critical at this time. We cannot expect and I am not certain that we would necessarily want the the Kurds to do that job on their own. same thing to occur in future. 961 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 962 and Security and Security My view, and the view I advance in the book, is that intervention in both Iraq and Syria. Yes, the circumstances there are substantial difficulties in calling for a vote in are different, but those of us who were here in 2003 will the way that is very easily done. First, Back Benchers be feeling especially uncomfortable that the rhetoric is have to be alerted to often secret intelligence, the strategic being ratcheted up as we edge ever closer to entering position and the tactical position on the ground. The another unwinnable war in the region. Those of us who Government’s legal advice has to be shared with people were against the incursion in 2003 had warned of the like me. We have to rise above vulgar considerations dangers of entering into a conflict that would result in a such as votes in a forthcoming general election and do power vacuum in Iraq. what is right for the nation and for the world. I am not On 24 September, a United Nations summit will meet certain that politicising warfare in that way is at all the in New York to discuss the ongoing situation. To continue right thing to do. the comparison with what happened in 2003, I am My co-author, Mark Lomas QC, thinks that it is grateful that that is happening, but we still cannot be wrong to have a vote in this House on every single complacent about the dangers of mission creep. It is, military action. He would like us to preserve the royal after all, largely down to the UK’s own incursion into prerogative that we have always used for the past 500 years. Iraq a little more than 10 years ago that that part of the I think that genie is out of the bottle and we cannot go world is in such dire straits today. back to the days when the Prime Minister and the Let us not deceive ourselves: this state of affairs Executive simply did what they wanted to do. None the cannot somehow be solved by western military intervention. less, there are substantial difficulties involved in having The situation is, of course, complex and volatile, and substantive votes. For example, if we have the new will require the decisive involvement of moderate powers NATO rapid reaction corps that the Prime Minister in the region, including Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon. announced last weekend, it will have two days to go into In the short term, if the involvement of the international action, and it will do so under the control of NATO, community is to gain support in the region, we will not of this House. What if this House disagrees with presumably need to engage with states that are considered NATO—or the United Nations, for that matter? to be stable, such as Syria, and this House will need to I am therefore seeking to advance the thesis that we ruminate very carefully indeed on the implications of that. must find a new way of doing this. The solution I In recent weeks, the Prime Minister has argued that propose is that we write into law the parameters under the old maxim, “My enemy’s enemy is my friend,” will which we would go to war. The easiest one would be the certainly not apply in this situation. As we know, however, age-old theory of just war. That lays down the reasons the turnover of events is so rapid and the ramifications for warfare, about which we could have a huge debate, so critical that the UK may not have the opportunity to including the parameters under which we would decide stick to that principle. I am by no means advocating to go to war. It also lays down the way in which we such a course of action—indeed, I would evidently conduct war—the Geneva conventions are based on the hesitate before entering into any conflict in the region—but theory of just war—and the way in which we conclude I think that Members on both sides of the House wars: what we do after a war has ended and how we should be aware of what this could lead to. treat enemies and those who have been defeated. Over the weekend, the former US Secretary of State, Such theories are as old as the hills and as good as Henry Kissinger—yes, he of the Contras in Nicaragua— they ever have been. If we were to write them into the argued that the US should launch an “all-out attack” law of the land in this House, we would allow the on ISIL extremists after the killing of its citizens, saying Executive and the Prime Minister to take the country to that it was a direct “insult”. Speaking to The Sunday war as they do at present, but they would no longer do Times, Mr Kissinger said that America had failed to so under the royal prerogative; they would do so under appreciate that countries in the middle east yearned for what I would like to call the parliamentary prerogative. “leadership” from the US and that the latter somehow It is this House that would lay down precisely what the has a duty to establish a “new order” in the region. This Executive should do in the future. I think that is a much follows an article he published in The Wall Street Journal better way of doing it than bogging ourselves down in at the end of August, in which he wrote: votes that we might or might not win. “The concept of order that has underpinned the modern era is 3.40 pm in crisis” Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): May I due to civil war in Libya, unrest in Syria, Iraq and first say that I very much enjoyed and agreed with the Afghanistan, and the resurgence of tensions with Russia. remarkable speech by the right hon. Member for Henry Kissinger is certainly correct about the notion Wokingham (Mr Redwood)? I seldom agree with him. of order being eroded, but we must not forget that the We were not exactly the best of friends when he was borders of many states in the middle east have been Secretary of State for Wales, but his contribution today flashpoints of violence since their very inception. The was remarkable and I was very pleased to hear it. I also order he mentions was nothing more than an illusion. agree with the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) That is precisely why we in my party of Plaid Cymru that we need to toughen up our stance on Israel. and those in the Scottish National party on whose I want to concentrate my remarks on Iraq, Syria and behalf I am also speaking—we are better together the ISIL threat. The middle east is, evidently, in a state today, by the way—have argued that moderate powers of crisis and the need for humanitarian aid is overwhelming. in the middle east should lead any intervention. I fear I would be lying, however, if I said that I was happy that that any action led by the US and the UK will smack of the drumbeat of war seems to have started again. I imperialism, but I do not think that it will come to that. understand that earlier this week the Prime Minister We of course abhor the brutal and shocking actions and the American President contacted the leaders of that ISIL has undertaken in recent weeks and months, Gulf states in a bid to secure support for military and we are repulsed by the threat to our own communities 963 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 964 and Security and Security [Mr Elfyn Llwyd] the issue, is a great mistake. We do not want to lose sight of the fact that the Government propose; the House of across the UK from radicalised individuals who return Commons disposes. here. We believe that the most effective way to undermine ISIL in its base is to encourage and support elements in Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Will the hon. their territories who hold contrary views. We recognise Gentleman give way? the need to arm the Kurdish forces. The Kurds are a Mr Jenkin: I give way to my Select Committee colleague. minority whose plight we have long supported in times of relative peace, and their right to self-defence is Paul Flynn: Was the hon. Gentleman’s faith in the absolute. value of a grand strategy not dented by the right hon. In spite of what the Prime Minister has said in recent and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), who days, I believe that we need a full debate and a vote, and said that his experience of the National Security Council I am gratified that the Secretary of State said that today. was of astonishing events that nobody expected and However, I cannot help feeling that we have been here nobody had planned for? A grand strategy carved in before. We must be aware that ISIL is a successor to stone would be useless. al-Qaeda, so another force would be likely to follow in the wake of ISIL being destroyed. Full-blown western Mr Jenkin: I must remind the hon. Gentleman, who intervention is likely to lead to the further radicalisation has sat in Committee with me for many hours listening of another generation of disaffected Muslims in the to evidence about this, that strategy is not the same as area and across the world. We should play our part in having a plan. Yes, a plan may be knocked off course by aiding those who need help, but we must be honest events, but that does not mean that we should relinquish about our previous complicity in bringing about the all the means or methods of reformulating the plan. latest instability. We can assist such states towards finding That is what strategic thinking is about, and I shall new cohesion, but if Iraq and Afghanistan have taught apply further thought to that in my speech. us anything it is the assertion that a new order cannot Let us face it: if we sweat about whether to take be imposed, but must be nurtured. military action and that dominates our entire debate, we are missing the point. I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe on that. Our 3.46 pm debate should be about the context in which we are Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): making that decision. The decision should flow out of Listening to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor that context, not be the subject of the debate itself. Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) has underlined for me that we The Foreign Secretary demonstrated a laudable strategic are in danger of having quite a serious debate in this perspective after a period of reactive and short-term House for a change. There have been a great many very initiatives, such as the reversal of the policy on Syria thoughtful speeches, despite their enforced brevity, which after the vote last year, which have left our policy in I will seek to match. disarray and, one might even say, paralysis. The period My Committee, the Public Administration Committee, of complete neglect of the Syrian situation has resulted produced two reports about strategy early in this Parliament. in the ISIS situation that we face. That has not been I may be flattering myself, but strategy—and the word helped by perhaps the greatest and most silent strategic “strategy”—seem by osmosis to have got more into the shock to hit the western world—the almost complete currency of our thinking. absence of the United States from an active role on the world stage. Before I talk about strategy, let me briefly address the question of the role of the House of Commons in the The Foreign Secretary still gave us a lot of conflicts. decision to go to war. It is an interesting debate, and I We will consider air strikes in Iraq, but not in Syria, am intrigued that a former Lord Chancellor, my right which is the home base of ISIS. We said that we would hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe not provide arms to the Kurds, but now we are. We (Mr Clarke), should describe the royal prerogative as some continue to expect President Assad to stand down, but kind of out-of-date relic given that most of the powers we will not do anything to make that happen. That has that Ministers continue to exercise—including the power brought about the situation that we are in. The to go to war, whether or not there has been a vote in this Government’s approach is over-precious about who our House—are in fact royal prerogative powers. friends should be and careless of the consequences of the restraints that that places on our policy. We have to The debate threatens to be sterile, however, because it treat President Putin as a pariah, but we might need has never been the case in modern times that any Prime to use him as an ally to defeat ISIS and stabilise the Minister would consider going to war unless they felt middle east. that they could command the confidence of the House of Commons, whether they took the decision before or Mr Baron: I am listening intently to my hon. Friend’s after consulting it. Nothing has changed: whether there comments, some of which I agree with. I suggest to him should be a debate is not a matter of religious or that perhaps caution is the right course of action for the constitutional doctrine. The responsibility for taking Government. We must not forget that only recently, in such a decision and for providing leadership on whether the past 10 years or so, we have been to war in the to take the country to war and commit our armed middle east on a false premise and supported the morphing forces to military action goes with the seals of office as of the Afghanistan mission from defeating al-Qaeda Prime Minister. The idea that that can be subcontracted into the much wider and disastrous mission of nation to the House of Commons, where all the armchair building. Many would also argue that Libya is turning generals—well, we do not sit in armchairs—and amateur into a basket case. Surely caution is not a bad thing, strategists can add their pennyworth and then decide given our past errors. 965 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 966 and Security and Security Mr Jenkin: Of course we should exercise caution. I The shadow of the past is long in debates such as this, have learned my bitter lessons, having been on the particularly the House’s decision just over 10 years ago Opposition Front Bench during the vote on Iraq. The to go to war in Iraq, but also the decision last year not decision to go to war blinded us to the wider strategic to intervene militarily in Syria. There is no doubt that considerations that should have been at the forefront of past decisions that we have taken have angered jihadists, our minds. We obsessed about the wrong things. Incidentally, but although we acknowledge that, it is important also the opponents of war obsessed about the wrong things to say that it is a fundamental and dangerous misconception too. They obsessed about legality, instead of effect. We to think that the ideology of Islamist extremism stems also sleepwalked into Helmand. I did not have only from the decision on Iraq or exists only as a response responsibilities at that stage, but it was extraordinary to western foreign policy. That misconception must be that we did so. dealt with, because for as long as it prevails, we fail to The National Security Council needs a template—a understand the threat that we face and are encouraged doctrine of thinking—in approaching such matters. to believe that we can somehow opt out of it. That is what I want to discuss in the last few minutes We should not forget that it was two years before the that I have. I agree with my right hon. and learned invasion of Iraq that the attack on 11 September, the Friend the Member for Rushcliffe that the greatest anniversary of which is tomorrow, took place. We should immediate threat is not what is happening in Ukraine, not ignore the fact that we took a decision not to the situation in Gaza, Israel and the middle east, however intervene in Syria last year, yet today it is the global much that preoccupies us, or what is happening in headquarters of violent jihadist extremism. There has Libya, which is a sideshow, but ISIS. The Prime Minister been no western intervention in Nigeria, yet Boko Haram is right to lay that out as the big threat. wreaks havoc, kills civilians and kidnaps schoolgirls. We need a doctrine of counter-insurgency on a global There is an imperialist conceit that suggests that scale. That is not new thinking. There are a few rules foreign policy is divided into a world of adults, such as that should guide our thinking. We have to secure our the United States and the United Kingdom, and other home base. The security element of this debate, which countries or forces, which are children. It is not true, has been rather neglected, is the most important thing. and it absolves others of responsibility for their actions. How will we protect ourselves from this insurgency? We We live in a world of adults and adults. No one forces need to deny the enemy a secure base. I ask Ministers: anyone to bomb a marketplace or behead an innocent how can we deny the enemy a secure base if we will not journalist on video. Those actions are the responsibility do anything about Syria? We need to starve the enemy of those who carry them out, and it is important that we of resources. How will we prevent the international are clear about that. money laundering that has been mentioned in this The issue is not whether we have to respond but how. debate? We need to base all activity on the best human Withdrawal from the world’s problems has become intelligence. We cannot plan any sort of campaign if we quite fashionable—“Nothing to do with us,” “All too are guessing or we do not know what is happening on difficult,” or even, at its worst, “Let them kill one the ground. However, we have cut the resources for that another.” That is not only morally bankrupt but against vital part of our capability. We must do our best to our own interests, because in an interconnected world remove the underlying political grievances. That is why we cannot opt out of facing threats. Violent jihadism the middle east peace process is important. It is a has already taken innocent lives in this country and tactical consideration in the main strategic objective of indeed this city, and it can do so again in the future. containing ISIS. The Prime Minister is right to define this as a generational We need to co-ordinate all actions to a strategic plan, struggle, but definition takes us only halfway. We also otherwise there will be chaos. We also need to remember have to will the means to respond. President Obama that it is, in the end, a battle for hearts and minds and will set out his strategy on the response to ISIS later that conflict is about will-power, not physical force. today, and in all likelihood it will include an element of Military action is not necessarily an indication of military response. At some point, we will be asked determination—it can be an indication of despair or whether we want to join in and support that action. It is weakness. We need to remember that the smallest actions, good that we debate that and learn the lessons from the such as Guantanamo Bay, the development of technology past, but we must not be imprisoned by the past. If we such as mobile phones or apparently innocuous words are to set out conditions for joining in action, let us do used in a speech, such as “axis of evil”, can have so, but let us not have an ever-lengthening list of conditions enormous strategic effects. We need to stay within the that are designed not as a means of reaching a decision, law, because if we are trying to defend law it is important but rather as a means of never having to take one. that we uphold the law ourselves, and we should use force only as a last resort. I agree with my right hon. Mr Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): The right Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point. With the that we have tended to resort to force as an expression thinnest of resources in our Foreign Office and intelligence of our will-power without applying our will-power to services, and without the aid or contribution of the all the other means at our disposal first. United States, what lessons might we draw from what happened recently in Mali and the Sahel, where early intervention was able to repel al-Qaeda, which has been 3.55 pm the closest to our shores most recently? Does that show Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): that we need a unity of approach, and development, As we debate these issues, it is not clear whether we will governance and security at the same time and not as face them as a United Kingdom or as a country forced choices? Early intervention to repel the threat has delivered apart, but I very much hope that we will face them as a a success, and that is noticeable by its omission during United Kingdom in the weeks and months to come. today’s debate. 967 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 968 and Security and Security Mr McFadden: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful assumptions about it. There is a long way to go, but the point and, as has been said several times, it would be guidance of Sheikh Ghannouchi in putting his country wrong to draw the lesson that we have been here before before his party—some in his party wished to proceed and that intervention is always wrong. in a different direction—demonstrated an important Let me return to the issue of values, because too point of principle: democracy is not only about winning; often we debate such things as though they are only a it is about sharing and losing power, and there are too question of military action or not, and we forget to few examples around the world of how that can successfully stress what we believe in and why this threat is so be done. In that region, Tunisia’s example is important. important. The values that we are familiar with are no We must not lose sight of what caused the Arab less important because we are familiar with them: spring: economics, corruption, political sclerosis. Those Governments elected by the democratic will of the issues remain, and the region has to tackle them, because people and where power passes peacefully if the people they lie at the root of other things we have discussed. change their minds in a subsequent election; equality Let no one think, either, that we walked away after for men and women; freedom of speech; freedom of Libya. Nobody walked away. I spoke to our ambassador, religion. In this country, people can go to the mosque Michael Aron, who is currently based in Tunis, having on Friday, the synagogue on Saturday, church on Sunday, previously been in Tripoli. The UK and others have and many can say that they do not want to go to any of worked incredibly hard on the institution building—the those. Those are fundamental freedoms. democracy building that people would have wanted. The problem is not Islam. Islam is practised peacefully Just because we were not there with boots on the by millions of people in this country and throughout ground to separate warring militias—I am not sure the world, without doing any harm to anyone. The anyone would really have wanted that—and just because problem is that strand of perverted religion which says we tried to address the needs of Tripoli and Libya in a that co-existence is impossible. We must stand for different way, please do not accuse us of walking away co-existence and for the pluralism of a society that says from Libya. We never did. that there is no single truth that everyone has to sign up The more someone learns about the region—there is to and believe. Pointing a gun at people’s heads and an issue about ministerial training; I have read more saying, “Convert or die” is the absolute antithesis of the about the region since leaving office than I ever read pluralism, democracy and equality in which we believe. while there, because of the necessities of ministerial This is not just about military action; this is about our life—the more they realise how complex and difficult it values. If we retreat from the world and do not take on is. Almost everything screams, “Don’t touch this. Listen this fight, we will end up with a diminished, shrunken to people who know the region better than you.” One of Britain. That should not be our vision for the future or the lessons of the past is that we need to listen more. what we stand for. The areas in the region will develop differently. Anwar 4.2 pm Gargash, the Deputy Foreign Minister of the United Arab Emirates and a great friend of the United Kingdom, Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): This said that stability was paramount and that with that has been an exceptionally good debate and we have came the preservation of a rich and diverse culture, but covered a lot of ground. I was particularly keen to listen his was not just a plea for the status quo. He said that to my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The rational evolution should be the process. The whole Border (Rory Stewart). When he speaks we listen to him region is changing, and will continue to do so, but it will with a mixture of shock and awe—if I can use that change differently in different places. phrase—and his powerful description of our deficiencies Turning to the crunch issue, I support a policy of in resources is familiar to any of us who have knocked containing ISIS, but in the first place it is likely to around that world. He is right. I used to get gasps from involve a military response. I would support strikes on any audience I spoke to when I said that the entire ISIS, but some things need to be done quickly. In the budget for the Foreign and Commonwealth office is less argument about who makes the decisions—this place or than what we spend on the winter fuel heating allowance, the Executive—I tend to side with the Executive. The including for fairly well-off pensioners. We have got our decision has to be explained to the House, and, as my balances wrong somewhere. right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe What my right hon. Friend the Member for North (Mr Clarke) said, it needs to be part of a narrative we Somerset (Dr Fox) said about values, which was echoed all understand, but it does not help our allies and those by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South we need to work with if we continually have to stop and East (Mr McFadden), was important, and in this debate take decisions in the House. We need to think things we seem to have got back to some clear and definite through—my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire points about the things in which we believe. The crisis in (Mr Gray) had some ideas about that—but we have to the middle east and the world that has forced it should give the Government the opportunity to take things not be lost as an opportunity to develop some of the forward. things we have heard, and I hope that those on the Our response should not comprise a deal with Assad, Front Benches will take them forward. as his butchery is too immense—the hon. Member for Let me start with a little good news and return to the Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) spoke movingly beleaguered Arab spring. I was in Tunisia yesterday and about that. We can do better. I was in touch with the the day before for a conference on investment entitled, Free Syrian Army spokesman just this afternoon, and “Start-up Democracy”. Little Tunisia is making its way, he reminded us: and what it is doing should not be minimised. Not only “We are the west’s partners—we share the west’s values and are has it been through a difficult political negotiation to protecting our children from terrorism just as you want to protect get to its current position, but a political Islamist party— yours. We are paying in blood for the values of freedom, dignity Ennahda—gave up power, confounding a lot of and justice.” 969 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 970 and Security and Security The FSA is already fighting ISIS on the ground, just as carefully considered, hard-headed realism. Sometimes the Kurds are. What is the difference between them? leadership means leading by example. We will not convince Why should they not get some support as well? There is our allies to do more against the common threats we a deal to be done. The extremists threaten Syria—they face if we refuse or fail to act ourselves. threaten Assad and his regime—and in return for work In conclusion, Britain is at a crossroads, and not just our air forces can do against extremists, is there not in our foreign policy. One path—attempting to protect something to get negotiators back to the table? I am not ourselves from the changes that are sweeping the world talking about Assad—he is expendable to both the by rejecting them and isolating ourselves from our allies Russians and the Iranians—but the remnants of the and partners—will lead to a diminished country. The Syrian regime, together with the FSA, could negotiate, other path understands that we will succeed only if we provided the incentive is there, and possibly we can seek to influence and shape the changes that are taking provide it. place around us, including by working with others. In a Finally, the coalition must be led by those in the world that is increasingly interconnected—economically, middle east, not the west. That offers the best prospect technically and in terms of security—I believe we should for the future. take the second path, because that is the key to our future security and prosperity. 4.8 pm Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to 4.13 pm follow the right hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): I must (Alistair Burt). I listened particularly carefully to the begin by apologising for not being present at the outset important points he made about the Free Syrian Army. of the debate; I had a parliamentary obligation outside I want to make three brief points. First, the challenges the House of Commons. However, at least I turned up, we face today and the nature of global risk and conflict which is not something that can be said of Scottish mean that Britain will achieve security for its citizens National party Members, who, even as we conduct this only if we seek to influence and engage with the world, debate, are going round Scotland saying that we should not retreat from it. Those fighting for ISIL who want to have a different and better foreign policy, but have come back and attack this country, and the tragedy of declined the opportunity to come today and to take us, flight MH17, in which one of my constituents lost his and perhaps the British public in general, into their life, show that what happens in other parts of the world confidence. can and does affect us here in the UK. We must not and I had the good fortune to hear the speeches of my cannot pull up the drawbridge, cut ourselves off from right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe others and hope that the rest of the world leaves us (Mr Clarke) and my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith alone, because that approach will never deliver security and The Border (Rory Stewart), who has now left us. I for people in Britain. Instead, we must use our position recall, as my right hon. and learned Friend will, that he and international influence—in NATO, on the UN and I went through the No Lobby together when it Security Council and, yes, in the European Union too—to came to the question of military action against Iraq. provide greater leadership in the world in addressing the Although it was suggested a moment or two ago that challenges and risks that we face. legality was perhaps too much in the minds of those Secondly—this point has been made by several hon. who took that course of action, the truth is that unless Members—although we should always learn lessons we are able to persuade the House of Commons that from the past, we must not be paralysed by it. Iraq what we are about to do is legal, we will have very little understandably casts a long shadow over this House chance of persuading the public outside the House of and the country as a whole, but we must focus on the Commons that what we are proposing to do is in the threats and risks we face today and deal with the world best interests of the public. as we find it now, not as we might wish it would be. That Mr Jenkin: The point was not to criticise any legitimate means taking head-on the argument, to which my right discussion about legality, although I do not think there hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South was any question about that legality. The problem was East (Mr McFadden) referred, that somehow our past that we spent all our time discussing that and talking actions have caused or created ISIL and other forms of through the United Nations—it is all that Tony Blair Islamic extremism. That is just false. Dealing with the talked to the President of the United States about—instead world as we find it also means being clear that although of asking, “What are we going to do when we get the consequences of action must be fully and seriously there?” We thought that that discussion had gone on considered, so too must the consequences of inaction. between Tony Blair and the President, but it just had Thirdly, the scale of the challenge presented by ISIL not. That was the real tragedy of that situation. and the threat that its activities and vile ideology pose to the world and to the values that we all hold dear—and Sir Menzies Campbell: My recollection is that the which define who we are as a country and as a people— discussion was mainly about illegality, and I think the mean that we must keep our options open as to how we hon. Gentleman does himself and his party a little less respond. That includes the options of who we work well than he could have, because the Conservative with, as well as what we do. We must have a clear spokesman, translated to the House of Lords as Lord objective and strategy and build strong international Ancram, was among those who were arguing very strongly support, particularly from those in the region, as the that there was a complete absence of a plan about what right hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire said. needed to be done after the military action had been However, we should be clear: ISIL must be defeated, successfully concluded. That attitude and those matters ideologically, financially and militarily. That will be were under active consideration by the hon. Gentleman’s achieved not by hope and good intentions alone, but by own party, even though it had voted to go to war anyway. 971 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 972 and Security and Security Mr Jenkin rose— this country by many other countries throughout the world, particularly those in the Commonwealth. I think Sir Menzies Campbell: I must make some progress, if that we should be nothing other than determined—indeed, my hon. Friend will excuse me. almost arrogant—in promoting them, because of the The second speech by which I was considerably influenced stability that they undoubtedly create. was that of the hon. Member for Penrith and The Let me now turn to what has obviously been the Border, who talked in realistic terms about resources, in single most significant issue in the debate so far: the particular the resources available to the Foreign Office. issue of how to deal with ISIS. The barbarism of ISIS is I would like to say a few words about the resources there for all to see. Like the hon. Member for Leicester available to the three security services, which as it happens West (Liz Kendall), I accept that military action will be are giving evidence to the Intelligence and Security required, but, as I understood my right hon. and learned Committee today. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe to say, the last thing If the threat is increasing and if the analysis is that that such military action should be is at the instigation there is a greater risk of terrorist activity in this country of the United States and the United Kingdom, and as a result of returning jihadists, one way to begin to what we rather loosely used to call the west. seek to meet that threat is by ensuring that those who If we want moral authority, and if we want political are on the front line of seeking to disturb or prevent support throughout the region, we must engage with such actions from taking place are properly resourced. the countries of that region, which is rather what happened That means investing money—and, yes, it means taking in the first Gulf war. It is often forgotten that in the money away from other things. We should never forget successful first Gulf war, the first unit to cross the start that the primary duty of any Government is the defence line was an armoured unit from Saudi Arabia. The and the security of their own citizens. coalition that was created in respect of that first Gulf war to expel Saddam Hussein from Kuwait was broadly Stephen Barclay: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman based and substantially supported by Arab nations. If suggesting that we should perhaps take money from we think that we can go into Iraq or Syria looking for DFID’s budget, which is often justified in terms of soft ISIS with only the stars and stripes and the Union jack power? Last year, for example, it spent £4 million on a flying above us, we have no idea of the long-term Spice Girl-style band in Ethiopia. Should we not be political difficulties that that would cause, however spending that sort of funding on serious diplomatic and successful the initial military action might be. intelligence capability? I do not really care whether it is a matter of law, a matter of prerogative or a matter of politics, but before Sir Menzies Campbell: I am something of a fan of the this House endorses military action which would have Spice Girls myself. the result of putting our men and women of the three armed services in danger’s way, the Government should Hon. Members: Sporty Spice! come to the House and explain what they are proposing, and the House should endorse it. Anything other than that will not satisfy public opinion. Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. Several hon. Members rose— Sir Menzies Campbell: I think the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) is suggesting Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. that they are alternatives, but they are not. Of course, The debate is proceeding apace, but I am afraid that I when we spend as much as we do on soft power, there must reduce the time limit for Back-Bench speeches to will be projects of which we disapprove, but there are five minutes. places in the world that now have clean water that did not have it before, and children getting the kind of 4.22 pm vaccinations that they did not get before as a result of Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): If there was ever a our spending so much money in that direction. As for time for Britain—the United Kingdom—to play its part influence, at the United Nations we will find that every in the world as a major, respected and democratic force, country and every permanent representative we talk to it is now. I want to make some comments about the will say how much they appreciate—and indeed envy situation in Iraq and Syria, and then say something the fact—that the United Kingdom is such a serious about what I consider to be the major threat that the contributor to international development. country faces in helping the middle east and other There have been some criticisms about strategy. I am problem areas in the world. rather diffident about entering into important strategic The situation in Syria and Iraq will not be resolved discussions with three minutes and 23 seconds in which merely by air strikes, necessary as they may turn out to to do so, but I wish to emphasise my support for the be. The Gulf states themselves need to play more of a notion of values. Values have been invoked in some role there. We are talking about a region that was thoughtful speeches in the course of this debate—including designed and drawn up according to artificial boundaries freedom of speech, the rights of women and the right to between nations, and I think that the problems there are free expression. I would like to put it slightly differently too fundamental to be dealt with simply by means of and start with the rule of law, which is a fundamental air strikes. We also need more inclusive governance of constituent of any democratic society. Human rights are countries such as Iraq. important, too—in a sense, they embrace some aspects The lesson for me from Iraq over the past quarter of of freedom of speech and the rights of women. Democratic a century, and from Syria and Libya more recently, is structures are important, too, of course. These are the that intervention brings its problems, but so does non- values that have been very substantially copied from intervention. If it was thought a year ago that the 973 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 974 and Security and Security Syrian situation was difficult to unpick and resolve, it is Abraham Lincoln said in the Gettysburg address that surely worse today. The humanitarian situation in and he did not want to see around Syria is dire. Seven million Syrians have been “government of the people, by the people, for the people…perish displaced within Syria, and a further 3 million are now from the earth”, displaced outside Syria’s borders, which is causing instability but I think that if we are not careful with the decisions in Turkey, Jordan and Iraq. we make in the future for this country, that is what is Some have said that we should work with Assad to going to happen. help to defeat ISIL. I am not sure whether I agree with that. I think that we should tread carefully as far as the 4.27 pm Assad regime is concerned, especially when we consider Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): I draw the fact that his regime has funded al-Qaeda and ISIL the House’s attention to my declaration in the Register to destabilise Iraq, Syria’s neighbour to the south, and of Members’ Financial Interests and my co-chairmanship to divide his internal opponents. His sense of self- of the all-party group on the Kurdistan region in Iraq preservation is acute, and I am very concerned about and vice-chairmanship of the all-party group on Iraq. playing his game. ISIL is like fog: like the fog, it will only evaporate if Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): May I just heat is applied, but if left alone, it will continue to thank the hon. Gentleman for his sterling work in those spread. We must degrade its military assets and leadership, areas? but remain aware that its operation is now embedded in many communities, many of which it wants to destroy, Nadhim Zahawi: I am most grateful—and my head and where civilians could become casualties by our own will not get through the double-doors if my hon. Friend actions. carries on like that. It was reassuring to see the NATO communiqué from From Mosul to Raqqa, ISIL, at its root, has filled last week that said: a void, both literally, in terms of governance, and “We condemn in the strongest terms ISIL’s violent and cowardly philosophically, in terms of leadership. Here, it has acts. If the security of any Ally is threatened, we will not hesitate to take all necessary steps to ensure our collective defence.” thrived, and while it is our indisputable enemy—a primary security threat to our interests at home and abroad, as As Benjamin Franklin said, we have heard from many Members—a narrow focus “We must all hang together. or assuredly we shall all hang on the tactical military solutions for defeating ISIL separately.” ignores the fact that the inherent problem is, at its heart, Last week in Wales the United Kingdom hosted the strategic. most important NATO summit in decades. More than We have heard a lot about the need for an inclusive 50 Heads of State were present, and it was the largest political settlement in Iraq, but what does this really gathering of its kind in UK history. This shows the look like? We have been there before. During the Petraeus importance of the UK and its role in the world, and I surge in 2007 we successfully mobilized Sunni tribes to do not want to see that role diminished. It is a role we purge al-Qaeda from their midst, but then we abandoned have played for decades, if not centuries, and our liberal them to Nouri al-Malaki’s extreme sectarianism. How democracy has not hesitated to defend those values in can we support Prime Minister Abadi to make things the darkest of times. Bearing in mind the comments of different this time around? While it is critical that the Chair of the Defence Committee, the hon. Member “power sharing” no longer means the carving up of for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), our diplomatic Government ministries into de facto sectarian fiefdoms, reach does reach parts of the world few countries can as happened under Maliki, or the centralisation of reach. English has become one of the international control in Baghdad—again, as Malaki did—ultimately languages of diplomacy. Our influence in many parts of the structure of governance has to give the Sunni tribes, the world looks after our interests and promotes our the people on the ground, a personal investment in how values, and the BBC World Service is the envy of the they live. The new Cabinet has six new Sunni Ministers— world. possibly seven, including the Defence Minister—but do The then Foreign Secretary said in 2010 that they truly represent wider constituencies of Sunnis? We “our international influence will bleed away unless we maintain must be mindful that the same faces keep reappearing. our international and cultural influence” It was positive to hear last night’s announcement of as a vital component of our weight in the world. I agree, the formation of national guard units that will allow but the key decisions to be taken by this country over communities to secure their local areas. Such functional the next three years could leave the country and our role federalism and empowerment will be vital in reducing in the world diminished. the lure of ISIL. Prime Minister Abadi must go further, If the Scottish people vote next week to leave the however. He must consider having greater local autonomy Union, and if there is a referendum on leaving the EU and a fair political settlement that addresses the by the end of 2017 and we do so, how can this country—or constitutional issues that have plagued Iraq since 2005. what remains of it—be treated seriously as a world He must consider revenue sharing, a hydrocarbon law power if what we want to do is retreat from the world and a referendum on the disputed territories—including, and we lack confidence on the world stage, because that of course, Kirkuk. Given former Prime Minister Nouri would be the result? Those of us who believe in doing al-Maliki’s legacy, restoring trust will not be easy or what is best for our national interests believe that dividing quick, but if Prime Minister Abadi can bring about a the Union of the United Kingdom and the union of genuinely inclusive political settlement with the Kurds Europe is clearly not in the national interest. If we go and the Sunnis, half the battle will already have been down that path, how long will it be before our permanent won. Without such a settlement, however, a unified Iraq seat on the UN Security Council is brought into question? will be an impossibility. 975 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 976 and Security and Security [Nadhim Zahawi] 4.34 pm

We must also recognize that ISIL cannot be defeated Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I wish to in Iraq alone. Syria, the regional safe haven for ISIL confine my remarks to the situation in Ukraine. I am over the past three years, is the centre of gravity in this pleased to follow the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon conflict, and it is there that a new push for peace is vital. (Nadhim Zahawi), and I will follow his example by Having said that, there are ways to do that and ways not beginning my speech by declaring an interest. I am an to do it, and I can assure the House that aligning with officer in the all-party group on Ukraine, although I Assad is most certainly not the way to do it. As in Iraq, must confess that I cannot remember which particular the solution will be a new inclusive Government who roleIhave. ultimately reduce the appeal of Sunni extremism and I take it as axiomatic that our aim in Ukraine is to who protect minorities, including the Alawites, the Kurds secure peaceful, democratic, political development in and the Christians of Syria. that country. By that standard, we are not doing very To achieve that, the regional actors—including, dare well. Of course President Putin, for his own internal I say it, Iran—must take the lead. We are all aware of and external reasons, has done and is doing everything the roles that different middle eastern countries have he can to undermine those developments. None the less, played in directly fuelling conflicts in the region, but the I have some questions about the way the UK, as a threat posed by ISIL and the unprecedented extent of country and as a member of the EU and NATO, has shared interests between once-mortal enemies can only played its hand; there has been a lot of furious rhetoric reinforce the need for the region to move beyond the but a lack of sombre analysis. The Russians have a zero-sum politics that have characterised it for so long. strategic interest in a warm-water port in Crimea for the The motivations and limitations of the regional actors Black sea fleet—we do not. The Russians have a long will no doubt determine the role that they play in the and close history and relationship with Ukraine—we push-back against this poisonous ideology, but play a do not. There is a large Russian-speaking minority in role they must. That is not to say that we should not be the east of Ukraine, and we are not in that situation. front and centre in helping them along. Undoubtedly That all means that when push comes to shove, in an the region looks to us, and to the United States, for open conflict, the Russians are going to be prepared to leadership and delivery. Twenty years on, John Major is do more and to push harder than we have and ever still held in the highest esteem by the Shi’a community would. and the Kurds for creating the safe haven policy and the Indeed, it is clear that some in eastern Ukraine do not no-fly zones. support the Kiev Government and have not supported Crucially, we must act with realism and humility. We the association agreement with the EU. Unfortunately, must do all we can to support the delicate diplomacy because of the Russian actions it is difficult for us now needed to bring in regional partners without alienating to see how many people in eastern Ukraine take that others, and to facilitate Iranian and Saudi co-operation view. When I visited Ukraine a couple of years ago, it with a nuanced understanding of the dynamics and was clear that the country had weak civil society and stakes involved. weak political institutions. We saw that in the way the Kiev Government were dealing with the problems in eastern Ukraine; there was no proper dialogue but an Stephen Barclay: Does my hon. Friend agree that attempt to impose people on, and control people in, such leverage could be used in some of the existing eastern Ukraine. A deeply unsophisticated approach disputes between the Baghdad Government and the was taken of imposing oligarchs as governors in eastern Kurds? Ukraine and refusing to listen. We need to look at things again. Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of the things that Iran could bring to bear on During the demonstrations in Maidan square at the Prime Minister Abadi’s Government in Baghdad is the turn of the year, the European Union had a tendency to resolution of such issues. The Kurds have not had their over-promise: to promise more than we have or than we budgets since January, and they are struggling to keep will deliver. Our messages were confused and confusing. their economy going while running the peshmerga campaign Of course, a large number of people and the Kiev against ISIL. That situation could be resolved immediately. Government wanted the EU association agreement, but We should be playing a part by saying to Iran, “If your why did it have to be rushed through in a way that for intentions are good and you want to behave differently, the Russians was highly confrontational? In July, the and if you want us to loosen the sanctions, show us Ministry of Defence was briefing that Ukraine is regarded your good intentions in Iraq and in Syria. Then maybe as virtually a member of NATO, which was unhelpful we will be able to take things further with you.” as it created uncertainty and unpredictability in respect of our potential actions in the minds of the Russians. There will be everything to play for, and there must We need to draw a clear distinction between the Baltic be co-operation between these regional powers. My states, which are members of NATO, to which we have right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe clear obligations and which have duties and responsibilities (Mr Clarke) mentioned our NATO allies. Turkey plays to the alliance, and Ukraine, which is not in that situation. a major role in the region, as do partners such as Jordan. I commend His Majesty the King of Jordan for I am not entirely convinced that sanctions are as his attempts to bring all the parties together. He did that effective as the Foreign Secretary hopes they are. at the NATO conference as well. Foreign policy is often represented as a choice between instant reaction and Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) quiet passivity, but that is a false dichotomy. We will (Lab): Will my hon. Friend give me some details of always act on a spectrum as the environment evolves. what she thinks are appropriate sanctions? 977 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 978 and Security and Security Helen Goodman: One problem is that, as my hon. Nadhim Zahawi: At the NATO summit an agreement Friend the Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick) has was reached under which all member countries have to been saying, it is not clear that small changes in the get their investment in defence up to 2% of GDP over income of particular individuals will matter very much the next 10 years. Does my hon. Friend think that that is to President Putin. Edward Lucas said that in his evidence adequate? to the Foreign Affairs Committee. There is also a problem of corruption, which is not helped by the Tory party Sir Gerald Howarth: I would like member countries taking a lot of money from Russian and Ukrainian to get up to 2%. At least they will be fulfilling the oligarchs. commitments to which they have signed up. Clearly, the We need to move to a political process to strengthen international situation is so demanding that we all need the political dialogue. On Monday, the Prime Minister to review whether that is the correct level of expenditure. agreed that the Russians had legitimate interests in the At the moment, NATO depends heavily on the contribution area, especially in seeing that the Russian minorities are of the United States. The people of Britain and Europe well treated and protected. must understand that American taxpayers have made a The Foreign Secretary talked about effective international big contribution to our overall defence. monitoring. I am not clear whether he meant the On the question of Ukraine and Russia, it is instructive Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe to remind ourselves that, at the NATO-Russia Council or a UN-sponsored plebiscite. We need to know more meeting in 2002, Vladimir Putin said: clearly what the Foreign Office has in mind. What is “Russia is prepared to act in accordance with international absolutely clear is that the former British ambassador law, international rules in the course of a civilised dialogue for the to Moscow, Tony Brenton, was right when he said that achieving of common and joint ends.” we should stop shouting and start talking. Indeed, in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal—the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world—the 4.40 pm Budapest agreement, which was signed by his predecessor Boris Yeltsin, said: Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): This has been “The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain a fascinating and informative debate. I am sorry only and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm that the amount of time that we have to discuss these their commitment to Ukraine…to respect the independence and significant and important matters has been curtailed. I sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.” suppose that it is rather telling that—with great respect Those three nations reaffirmed their obligation to those who are in the press gallery—the press gallery is virtually empty. I do not expect to read anything “to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.” about this debate in the newspapers tomorrow because it will not be exciting or controversial. Perhaps the We have seen a flagrant breach of that agreement, British people would be better informed if they knew which was signed by Boris Yeltsin, Bill Clinton and that their Parliament was taking these things seriously. John Major. If Putin can simply renege on the agreements he has signed, what does that 2002 speech mean? As Members across the House have been saying, since 2010, we have been in a period of extraordinary Russia now believes in the extraordinary and dangerous turmoil. Since we completed our strategic security and doctrine that it can intervene in other sovereign countries defence review in 2010, fundamental changes have if it believes there is any threat to those who have taken place across north Africa, the middle east and Russian connections or who speak Russian. That is Ukraine. Nothing calls more for a really serious new chilling. We should remind ourselves that, in The Daily strategic defence and security review than the state of Telegraph, the Russian ambassador wrote: affairs at the moment. I hope that the Foreign Office, “With the rights of national minorities violated and the interests the Ministry of Defence and other Government of regions disregarded, the people of Crimea found it necessary Departments will put time and effort into producing a to determine their own political future by means of a referendum—and strategy. We were unable to do that in 2010 because we to do it fast.” were up against the time scale of the comprehensive We know that it was Russian military intervention that spending review. took Ukraine. We need to be clear that there is no land I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich link between Russia and Crimea at the moment. All and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), who has been banging on that is going on in eastern Ukraine is designed to soften repeatedly about the need for strategic thinking. So it up so that, at some point, Putin will come in, possibly much has changed since the fall of the Berlin wall. All link up with Odessa and Transnistria, and render the the certainties with which I grew up, including the rump of Ukraine a landlocked country. They are very balance of terror, have all gone, and we have inherited a serious matters. We must make it clear to Russia that very turbulent world. My hon. Friend the Member for the Baltic states are subject to article 5. There can be Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) made a compelling absolutely no doubt about it. It is irrefutable that article 5 speech. He said that we need to invest more money in stands. intelligence and in the Foreign Office; it is absurd that I am sorry that we have not had enough time to we invest so little in the Foreign Office and I hope that debate these matters. The Scottish referendum will take that will change. place next Thursday. With Russia penetrating our airspace Like the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen and following our sea lanes, the idea that we should Goodman), I wish to refer to matters in Ukraine, as surrender a part of the United Kingdom and render it a they are very serious and much closer to our borders foreign country and therefore not part of NATO— than the important issues in Syria and Iraq. Personally, I want good relations with Russia Mr Speaker: Order. I call Mark Hendrick. 979 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 980 and Security and Security 4.47 pm new Russia. He says that part of Ukraine’s territories are eastern Europe, but that the greater part are a gift Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure from Russia. to follow the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth). I will carry on in that vein. As he rightly said, Putin witnessed first hand the mismanagement of the Putin has reneged on the Budapest accord. To develop Russian economy, open corruption and the economic my argument, I will talk about Russia’s past and what hardships that the collapse of the USSR and market will happen in future. forces brought to Russia. It is with the period that saw the decline of the Soviet Union and of Russia in mind The UN estimates that, since the Russian annexation that Putin has said quite openly that he regrets of Crimea in April, nearly 2,600 people have been killed “the passing of the Soviet Union” in fighting between pro-Russian separatist rebels and the Ukrainian army in eastern Ukraine. The UN figure and that the blame for much of the past lies squarely at does not include the 298 passengers and crew of Malaysian the feet of the west. Airlines MH17, which was shot down in the area by Article 5 of the NATO treaty considers an attack in separatist rebels on 18 July. terms of “armed force”, yet Russia is currently inciting an insurgency. Ukraine is not the first conflict to be frozen and it will not be the last. For some years, Russia has become Sir Gerald Howarth: The hon. Gentleman is talking increasingly uneasy about the expansion of both NATO about the Baltic states. He will know that Kaliningrad is and the European Union. As the EU has become bigger, a part of Russia on the Baltic sea, surrounded by Russia has seen the buffer of states between her borders Poland and Lithuania. Does he fear that Russia might and those of EU states dramatically reduced. In the try to produce a land link between itself and Kaliningrad? north-east of the EU, they are non-existent. Many in Russia believe that the west reneged on an informal Mark Hendrick: I think that is perfectly possible and agreement in 1990 not to expand NATO eastwards. I concur with the hon. Gentleman. I think that, even That misunderstanding or breach of trust is the basis though Ukraine is not an article 5 member of NATO, it for the current instability in eastern Europe. poses many questions about NATO members, particularly It is not the first time Russia has used proxy forces to the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. destabilise countries and create frozen conflicts. In 1992, Kaliningrad, like Crimea, is strategically very important during the break-up of the Soviet Union, the newly to the Russians and if the west does not take strong created country of Moldova was destabilised when its action at some point, possibly going beyond sanctions, large ethnic Russian population of 200,000 people chose the west, particularly countries such as the UK, will to break away and join Russia. As in Ukraine, pro-Russian suffer and might enter a third world war. The situation separatists fought Government forces to a standstill. is far more serious than it has been painted. It is at least Russia committed 150,000 so-called peacekeepers to as serious as what is happening in Iraq and Syria for the Transnistria. They are still there today. Transnistria stability and future of Europe. I hope that the west sees held a referendum in 2006 similar to that we saw in Putin for what he is and treats him not as a former Crimea, voting heavily in favour of joining Russia. The economic Minister but as a former head of the KGB. region’s status has still to be decided. For Georgia, the current crisis in Ukraine and Crimea 4.53 pm has clear parallels with its own conflict with Russia in Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I apologise 2008. After its application for NATO membership, ethnic to colleagues for having missed some of the Back-Bench Russian separatists rose up in South Ossetia and Abkhazia speeches earlier due to an unbreakable commitment and there were reports of “unidentified troops” posing related to the Intelligence and Security Committee of as local insurgents in Georgia’s separatist regions. Russia Parliament. intervened under similar auspices, claiming the citizens’ As was observed earlier, when my hon. Friend the right to self-determination, separation and Russian Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) is protection under international law. As in Moldova, the thought about in defence terms the one word that will statuses of the two breakaway regions are still to be be associated with him will be “strategy”. When my formally decided. Although they are so-called independent political epitaph comes to be written, I guess most regions, they are effectively now as much a part of people would think that the one word that would be Russia as Crimea. associated me would be “Trident”—or, if they were The current rebel advance has raised fears that the feeling kinder, it might be “deterrence”. Actually, a Kremlin may seek to create a land corridor between different word ought to be associated with what I am Russia and Crimea. As with Moldova and Georgia, trying to outline in terms of strategy today: “containment”. analysts have speculated that Putin does not want a Containment is the key to what we need to do in the two Crimea-style annexation, which would be expensive very different scenarios of Russia’s behaviour and ISIL’s and militarily difficult, but instead wants to create a behaviour. Containment sometimes has to be done by “frozen conflict” that would give Moscow permanent means of a balance of terror, as when dealing with a leverage in Ukraine. Only time will tell whether eastern nuclear-armed state such as Russia. On other occasions, Ukraine will be annexed, too. it has to be done with the more traditional concept of I feel that the west has seriously misjudged Putin and the balance of power, as when dealing with states such does not seem to understand where he is coming from as those of the middle east. Containment by means of and what he hopes to achieve. In many Russian minds, the balance of power often means active intervention. Ukraine is a part of Russia. Putin has certainly reflected Let me refer briefly to two scenarios. In the case of that view in public with recent press conferences referring Russia and Ukraine, what Russia is doing is not new, as to Ukraine as either little Russia or, in some cases, the hon. Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick) observed 981 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 982 and Security and Security in his interesting speech. In fact, it is based on a model Gaddafi. The effect of the latter was not to further of what it did in the immediate aftermath of the second western strategic interests but the interests of our deadly world war, when countries such as Czechoslovakia, enemies on the jihadist front. Bulgaria and Hungary were first subverted and then taken over. I have previously mentioned the important Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Does my hon. work of Professor Anatol Lieven in analysing the situation Friend agree that one of the crucial things in some of in Ukraine. Time prevents me from doing more than the recent military adventures in the middle east is, pointing out that he has consistently said that the only perhaps, a lack of understanding that once a dictator way in which a disaster will be averted is for some goes there is no Government structure or stability and considerable degree of autonomy to be awarded to the that, therefore, the rule of law and everything else we Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine. If we try to egg on love are not possible? the other parts of Ukraine to win militarily, Russia will simply step up its military effort and the overall effect Dr Lewis: Absolutely. As always, my hon. Friend, will be disastrous. with his Foreign Office background, makes the pertinent point. Thanks to his courtesy of giving me more time, I Helen Goodman: The hon. Gentleman is making a would like to quote a recent editorial from The Spectator: very powerful point, and I agree with him. Did he agree “Such is the march of Islamic fundamentalism that if you with the remarks of the right hon. Member for Wokingham remove a dictatorship in the Arab world and you don’t end up (Mr Redwood), as I was somewhat alarmed to discover with a western-style liberal democracy, you end up with a snake that I did? pit of competing religious factions, the most malign of which tends to dominate.” What we are up against is a choice of the lesser of Dr Lewis: Sadly, that is one of the Back-Bench speeches evils. Sometimes we will have to strike down one element that I missed. of an evil choice, and sometimes we will have to suppress I am grateful, in any case, for the hon. Lady’s intervention, another. We should not, however, climb into bed with as it gives me a little more time to refer to the important the enemy of my enemy on either occasion. The enemy point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot of my enemy is not necessarily my friend; the enemy of (Sir Gerald Howarth). There is a huge difference between my enemy can be my enemy as well. That is why we have NATO members that are covered by the article 5 guarantee to contain and control them and intervene from time to and other countries, no matter how sympathetic we are time, but we must not delude ourselves that there will be towards them, that are not. When I was 16, Czechoslovakia any perfect outcomes. was invaded. I thought what a shame it was that while Czechoslovakia was temporarily free we did not scoop up this poor vulnerable country under the protection of 5.1 pm NATO. But I was 16 then—I am not 16 now, and I Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): I disagree know the realities. I know that what was done in the with the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) aftermath of the second world war was nothing more about the idea of containing ISIS, because allowing a than a recognition of the reality that the west could caliphate, however small or large, to establish itself band together to protect itself by means of NATO, but would pose a great threat to the neighbouring Arab it could not, at that stage, protect the countries of countries. central and eastern Europe. Russia had to be contained by means of the balance of terror involving nuclear Dr Lewis: I obviously did not make myself clear deterrence. enough. I said that containment by balance of power Let me quickly move on to ISIL. We are not in a often means active intervention, and at this stage it situation where we have a choice of good outcomes. means active intervention against ISIS. I am sorry that I The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East did not make that clear. (Mr McFadden) and my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) set out certain Mike Gapes: Perhaps we can talk about a different conditions in hoping for a good outcome in relation to wording later. the choices that face us. I hope they are right, but the When I was in Perth three weeks ago, I visited the likelihood is that there will be no good outcome in these Black Watch museum, and after that I visited Edinburgh, confrontations—that no good guys are going to come where I was struck by a very interesting exhibition on out on top, but only somebody of the stripe of an Arab the role of Scottish troops and Scottish diaspora troops dictator, on the one hand, or revolutionary jihadists on in the British imperial forces during the first world war. the other. Is it not sad that an organisation is campaigning on an That is where we move on to containment by means anti-British platform when, historically, the British imperial of a balance of power, whereby sometimes there is no army was, and the British Army today is, very much ally to be helped and all we can do is try to ensure that rooted in the contribution of Scots to many of our no one of a bunch of undesirable actors on the international country’s distinguished regiments? That is another aspect stage gets to be dominant. That is what we have to do in that those of us from England, Wales and Northern this case. That is why I gently disagree with my hon. Ireland should remind our brothers and sisters in the Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex about rest of the United Kingdom about when they vote next the vote that we had last year. I am absolutely delighted week. to look back on the fact that I was one of the people The end of the first world war, nearly 100 years ago, who made sure that we did not intervene to drag down led to the treaty that resulted in the creation of a Assad, atrocious though he is, because the upshot of number of states. Turkey, which came out of the Ottoman that would have been similar to that of dragging down empire, has already been mentioned, and others included 983 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 984 and Security and Security [Mike Gapes] already been mentioned—Russia’s policy now is an attempt not just to turn the clock back a few years, but countries on its borders, such as Syria, as well as Lebanon to recreate some form of Soviet Union-style Russia as it and Jordan, and countries further away, such as Saudi was in the past. The so-called Eurasian customs union Arabia and Iraq. Later came the establishment of the is the Putin model to rival the successful European state of Israel and the consequences that were touched Union, which has acted as a magnet for all the countries on earlier. of central and eastern Europe. At the same time, Putin The Kurds, who were scattered among up to three, is espousing the very dangerous doctrine that Russia four or five countries in the region, did not get a state at has a right to intervene in the internal affairs of any that time. Events in Iraq have led to the establishment of country where there are people who speak Russian. an embryonic state in the form of the Kurdistan Regional Following that logic is a recipe for renewed conflict all Government of Iraq, which has its own flag and defence across Europe and in other parts of the world, so we forces—the very brave but poorly equipped peshmerga, have to resist it and stop it. who are fighting so hard and who are now, I am pleased to say, going to be armed by the United Kingdom, at 5.8 pm last, as well as by other European partners. There will be ramifications as a consequence of current Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): For too events, because the PKK in Turkey and the PYD in long, it seems to me, there has been an idea that dealing Syria, which has been fighting against Assad, have been with problems in countries such as Syria and Ukraine is co-operating with the peshmerga to get the Yazidis and a matter for our leaders, while ordinary Back Benchers others off Mount Sinjar to safety.Yetwe know that Turkey, must follow. Well, that has changed. The history of Iraq Syria and Iran are very much against an independent shows how badly we were led, principally by Tony Blair Kurdish state, because of what the consequences would and his apparatchiks. Going to war with Iraq was be. Therefore, a very complex development is going on. wrong and unnecessary. I am sorry to say that Tony Blair was not straight with this House or with the Some people have said that the Sykes-Picot line, nation. Never again will we leave such decisions solely which was drawn on the map by French and British to our leaders. diplomats nearly 100 years ago, is dead. It is not yet dead, and we must be very careful. I believe that we may There are three areas of the world over which we have need a comprehensive international conference in the great concerns. If we are not careful, we may get into region at some point to redraw the boundaries. military action without any clear objective. That has already been attempted—fortunately it failed—in respect Richard Graham: Does the hon. Gentleman not consider of Syria. that in the current environment of having so much In the Holy Land, there is an agreement of sorts instability in the region, which he is describing very between Israel and Palestine. Gaza is not a state, but well, to give encouragement to any particular group— neither is it allowed by Israel to be part of Palestine. It however strong their cause, however powerful their is ruled by a terrorist organisation, Hamas, with the case—might simply be the trigger for a further round of consequences that we see each day—bombing, rockets instability? Would not the fact that all sorts of others and bloodshed. Although there are issues that we, the might want to redraw the boundaries, however ineptly Egyptians and the Israelis agree on, the Palestinian they were drawn 100 years ago, contribute to the instability militants have crackpot ideas, and hundreds of rockets that we want to contain? are fired from Gaza into Israel. However, very few people are killed by those rockets, whereas approximately Mike Gapes: The instability is already there. We have 2,000 innocent civilians in Gaza have been killed by to face reality. Will Syria continue as a state, or will it Israeli offensives. disintegrate into three or four component parts? If we What is needed, as well as a lasting ceasefire, is a take on ISIL and defeat and destroy it, I suspect that we workable plan for the crossings into Israel and Egypt will do so in alliance with a coalition of forces. Some of from Gaza by both land and sea. Gaza has a smaller those forces will be non-state actors: the actors will not land mass than the Isle of Wight but more than 1.8 million just be the Governments of the region, but groups such residents. Most of them are out of work because businesses as the PYD, which is currently in effect in control of can get few of their products out in order to sell them parts of Syria. and local people do not have the money to buy things. I, Whether we are talking about creating loose like so many people, am concerned that we must find a confederations, which may well be the outcome of the more civilised way for innocent people to live, even if political discussions in Baghdad and the internal dynamics a terrorist gang is in charge. It is totally unacceptable in Iraq, or about the outcome of what is happening in that larger and larger developments by the Israelis Syria, we need a little bit of vision in our thinking about are forcing many thousands of Palestinians from their how we can create a longer-lasting international framework homes. for dealing with the issues. I am not saying that this is Secondly, in Syria, President Bashar al-Assad no something for today—the priority today is to build a longer has control of the whole of his country. There coalition to defeat the people who want to take the was a movement in favour of democracy, but that has world back 900 years to some mythical Islamist caliphate— been overtaken by extremists, including Hamas and the but we ultimately need to be aware that some issues much increased force of the so-called Islamic State, coming out of this situation will have to be resolved. which is still more extreme. It has taken over a third of In relation to people who want to take things back to Syria and has moved into Iraq, murdering men and what they were—the role of the man who admires the raping women and children of the Christian faith and Soviet Union and wishes to recreate parts of it has other faiths who refuse to convert to Islam. 985 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 986 and Security and Security It is tempting to believe that we and the United States communities from my local mosque to the far corners are able to sort that mess out. The trouble is that there is of the world.” At that time, we would not have thought no evidence to suggest that we could achieve that, it conceivable that young men and women educated and unless the Syrians and Iraqis start to take action themselves. born here would go to the far east and take part in My conclusion is that there is little that we can do mediaeval barbarism. How did that happen? It is not militarily that would be useful. We must encourage the about the imams, who have lost touch with the young Syrians and the Iraqis to take control of their own people. It is about the internet and the flow of information destiny. that young people have. The sense of injustice has Finally, in Ukraine, there is a ceasefire for the moment, deepened since 2003. There was not the same division at but it might break down at any time. All but Crimea that time. There were a few fanatics, and al-Qaeda and three of the areas nearest to Russia are under the existed, but there was minute support for it. Now it control of the Ukrainian people. For the moment, we takes support from a huge percentage of the young are standing back. Ukraine is not part of NATO. My Muslim population. That is deeply worrying, and we fear is that the EU will act as if Ukraine is part of the have to see the reason for it. EU. That would be undemocratic and unacceptable. How we take decisions is an important issue. The All three areas are worrying, but peaceful negotiation most important decision that we have taken recently, of is always preferable to war. As Churchill said, jaw-jaw is course, was on 29 August last year. Having watched better than war-war. how we go to war, I suggest that we must stop trusting the wisdom of Prime Ministers. They do not behave in a normal fashion on such matters. They are overwhelmed 5.14 pm with hubris and talk in a different way, digging out the Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to Churchillian rhetoric. They walk in a different way—they follow the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner). strut like Napoleon. I have seen it here time and again. We sit together on the Political and Constitutional They are not dealing with petty issues about taxes; here Reform Committee, which produced an interesting is their great moment. They are writing their page in document recently on Magna Carta. One of our proposals history, and it is usually a bloody page. They are not was that this country should never go to war without a rational, as Anthony Eden was not rational when he vote in both Houses of Parliament. That is an interesting went into the Suez war. We are far better trusting the proposal. Now that it is a convention, I hope that it will pooled wisdom of 650 MPs than listening to and following be accepted in statute. a hubristic Prime Minister. The hon. Gentleman referred to the Iraq war, and of We have had an interesting debate, and the two course we do not know the truth of why we went into speeches that I have warmed to more than any others that war. We know that we were fed lies and all kinds of were those of the right hon. Member for Wokingham scares, such as that Britain could be attacked within (Mr Redwood) and the right hon. and learned Member 45 minutes using weapons of mass destruction that did for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke). We know that, incredibly, not in fact exist. We still have yet to get the Chilcot there is a fairly even spread in the House between the report, which the Public Administration Committee peace party and the “give war a chance” party. Even discussed with Jeremy Heywood this week. We asked Labour Members have said that we should not be whether he was the blockage, because the Prime Minister imprisoned by history. Of course we should be imprisoned has said that he is not stopping the report. All these by history—we should learn from it, because we have years later, we do not know whether Tony Blair made an nothing else to go on from which to learn lessons. agreement with Bush that committed us to war, after I am grateful to the Government for holding the which the House was forced into war based on a series NATO summit in Newport, in my constituency. It was of untruths. Some 179 British soldiers died in Iraq, and possible a grudging and belated acknowledgment of the there were huge costs and uncounted Iraqi lives were wisdom of the local MP on foreign affairs matters. It lost. was a great occasion, and I was particularly pleased by I believe that we need to carry out another inquiry the decisions on the Baltic states. In ’89, ’90 and ’91 I into our decision to go into Helmand province, which is had the pleasure of going to the three Baltic states and arguably the worst military decision that we have taken watching their struggle for independence. It was a great since the charge of the Light Brigade. At the time, in campaign: intelligent, courageous and restrained. It 2006, we had lost only two British soldiers in combat was difficult to win that independence, and they are in Afghanistan. We went into Helmand in the hope that frightened now—particularly Latvia and Estonia—because not a shot would be fired, and we ended up with they have a large percentage of mother-tongue Russians. 453 soldiers lost in combat. Why did we do it? We owe it to them to be behind them and guarantee their independence. Mr Baron: May I suggest that a key reason was mission creep? We allowed the mission to morph, 5.20 pm disastrously, from one of taking on and getting rid of al-Qaeda to one of nation building, which was a completely Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): It is, different ball game. That was the fundamental error as ever, a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for that we made in Afghanistan. Newport West (Paul Flynn), and I too welcome this debate. I would like more of these debates—I am sure I Paul Flynn: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I am not alone in that—not only because a lot is happening wrote to Tony Blair in 2003—the letter was on my blog on the international stage that directly affects our interests, and has been there ever since—saying, “If we go to war global possessions and so forth, but because it is important in Iraq without attempting to solve the Israel-Palestine that those on the Front Benches are in touch with the problem, we will give a sense of injustice to Muslim mood of Back Benchers across the House. It is in their 987 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 988 and Security and Security [Mr John Baron] policy not tend to be too reactive to the last thing that happened? It was said that as soon as the Soviets left, common interest to ensure that we minimise the chances the west left Afghanistan to stew in its own juices. It was of a vote taking place like the one that happened a year to prevent that from happening again that the west ago. More communication is good; we need more debates made the bad mistake, as it turned out, of engaging in of this sort, and that this debate has been so oversubscribed nation building. illustrates that point well. In the brief time available I will confine my remarks Mr Baron: I pay tribute to the work of my hon. to ISIS and perhaps to what I consider to be the Friend and others on both sides of the House in asking dilution of skills within the FCO—something that should those difficult questions a year ago. We were right to do concern us all. The Government are right to make a that. He is absolutely right about Afghanistan as well. commitment that there will be no air strikes in Iraq The litany of errors does not stop with Afghanistan. unless that has been debated in this House and approved. We now have the Libyan Government meeting on a They were also right to exhibit the cautious approach Greek ferry off Tobruk; there is civil war; the number of that they have shown to date, which is to be welcomed. civilian casualties is shooting up; and we have not got a We have heard it said many times that Iraq casts a long proper policy. I certainly do not think our intervention shadow, and the bar for military action has been raised. helped the situation. We have now discussed Syria, and There is no doubt about that in the House, but I it is clear that the Government’s intentions to arm the contend that it is not a bad thing, given the number of rebels were misplaced, given that it would have been errors we have made in the region over the past 10 to impossible to track and trace the arms. Our bigger issue 12 years. is now taking on in Iraq some of the rebels who confronted I take issue with those who suggest—we have heard Assad. this quite a bit in the Chamber today—that by exhibiting It is right to be cautious and to ask questions, and it a cautious approach and voting against action in Syria is right that the bar has been set higher. I am pleased last year, Britain is somehow retreating from the world, that Ministers realise the difference between air strikes or that we wish to bury our heads in the sand and do in Iraq, which many of us could support, provided not want to play any more on the world stage. That is certain preconditions were in place, including a request utter tosh. We are a key member of the UN Security from the Baghdad Government, and air strikes in Syria, Council and of NATO, and a prominent member of the which would be a much higher risk policy, not only Commonwealth. We are not retreating from the world, because of Russian-built air defences, but because of but if a slightly more cautious approach is needed, that the legalities and the fact that a common feature of the is surely how it should be in this place, when the most Syrian civil war has been the extremist groups lurking in serious decision we can make in this House is whether the shadows and morphing into each other—al-Nusra, to send troops to war—a decision that costs lives and linked to al-Qaeda, for example—and would be difficult can result in great expense in both lives and treasure. to say who might take ISIS’s place in Syria. We have only to look back at our recent track record. I welcome the caution. At the end of the day, the There can be no denying that we went to war on a false politics in Iraq must succeed. The elephant in the room premise in Iraq in 2003. There were no weapons of mass is the Iraqi army. It has to be ground forces that defeat destruction. Fact: we went to war on a false premise. ISIS—air strikes alone will not succeed—but they must Some may dispute this, but I think that a key error—this not be western. The symbolism of the west defeating was referred to by the hon. Member for Newport West— this caliphate would be too great. The Iraqi army is the was in Afghanistan. We all agreed with the initial narrow elephant in the room, but the politics must come through objective of ridding Afghanistan of al-Qaeda. That was and succeed. What fomented the presence of ISIS was laudable and we supported it. It went wrong when we the very sectarian politics pursued by Maliki, the predecessor allowed the mission to morph into one of nation building, of the current Government. We must have more inclusive which was a much broader aim that we fundamentally politics in Iraq, but at the same time we have to ensure under-resourced. that the army drives out ISIS.

David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): I am listening 5.28 pm carefully to my hon. Friend and thinking about the vote last year, when regrettably I was not able to support the Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): In the five Government. Listening to my hon. Friend, I would say minutes available to me, I want to make three points that the problem was that chemical weapons could be and ask one specific question that I hope the Minister moved around very easily, and so as a military objective will reply to. it was not very satisfactory. We are meeting in the shadow of the end of the NATO Heads of Government conference, and although Mr Baron: I agree. Technically, the motion was about I am sure it was a magnificent affair for the many Heads that, but there was also a push last year by the Government of Government and other putative members of NATO to arm rebels fighting Assad. However, because it would who attended, I think we should have a much more have been impossible to track and trace those arms, nuanced view of what NATO is about and what it has some of them would have ended up, inadvertently, in become. It did not shut up shop at the end of the cold the hands of the very extremists we are now taking on war, sadly; instead, it cast around for something to do, in northern Iraq—a bitter irony if ever there was one. and has now sought and obtained for itself a global role. Collectively, its member states already spend $1 trillion Dr Julian Lewis: It was precisely for that reason that a year on arms, and according to the Wales declaration, my hon. Friend and I made common cause against the many states that do not quite meet the 2% minimum folly of that intervention. On Afghanistan, does our requirement will have to increase their spending. 989 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 990 and Security and Security Paul Flynn: Does my hon. Friend agree that NATO is bitterness from that bombing by Israel continues and a chameleon organisation? It was belligerent and bad will continue for a very long time. Surely there should under Bush, but benign and peace-seeking under Obama? have been a response by the British Government on this. It is not good enough just to talk about Israel’s right to Jeremy Corbyn: I think that is an incredibly generous exist and its right to self-defence. There was a total description of how NATO is behaving under President disproportionality about the whole conflict. More than Obama, although it certainly was belligerent under Bush. 2,000 Palestinians are dead; sadly, 100 Israelis are dead. NATO’s endless eastward expansion has encouraged I wish no one had died from that conflict, but unless we an equal and opposite reaction on the other side, in address the rights of and justice for the Palestinian Russia. Although I am not a defender of Putin or, people—their right to nationhood, their right to recognition, indeed, of Russian foreign policy, one has to say that if their right to travel, their right to trade; all those things—and there was a general agreement that Ukraine should be a instead keep them in prison in Gaza, this will all break neutral, non-nuclear state, the presence of NATO forces out again in the not-too-distant future and we will have in Ukraine and joint exercises with Ukrainian forces a renewal of all the horrible bloodletting that has were likely to encourage the Russian military to do the happened over the past month. same across the border. If we want to see peace in the There was a massive lobby of Parliament yesterday region, as we all do, surely there has to be demilitarisation by supporters of Palestine. On 9 August, 150,000 people and a process that brings about a peaceful reconciliation came on a demonstration in London to show their in Ukraine, if that is at all possible. Instead, what I hear solidarity with people under bombardment. It is up to all the time is the ratcheting up of the military options us, as one of the authors of the Sykes-Picot agreement, on both sides, with more and more exercises and more which is the antecedent of many of these problems, to and more overflying. be prepared politically to do something about the problem, This is a very dangerous situation that could indeed at the very least by suspending all military arrangements lead to some dreadful conflict. I want to sound a note of with Israel. Although I recognise that that will not solve caution about it and also draw attention to the fact that the problem, it would at least send a significant political NATO now gives itself the right to involve itself in any message. part of the world, at any time, through its rapid reaction My final point in my remaining minute is simply this. force. Indeed, the Prime Minister wanted to bring another I have been a Member of this House long enough to 33 countries on board. A global military power that can have discussed the Afghanistan war, the Iraq war, the go in anywhere is not necessarily a good thing; indeed, Libya conflict and indeed, before that, the Gulf war. I it can provoke all the opposition and all the problems am no supporter, sympathiser, apologist or whatever for that we are discussing in today’s debate. ISIL—for what it stands for, what it does, what its The question I want to put to the Minister—to which methods are or for its current threat and attacks on the I hope I will get a reply either today or in writing—is Kurdish people. Surely, however, some basic understanding this. The mutual defence agreement between Britain of history will recognise that our interventions and and the USA on the sharing of nuclear information, our behaviour—American interventions, American originally signed in 1958, comes up for renewal this behaviour—have created the circumstances in which year. There is no date set for Parliament to debate it, ISIL has grown up. The money now going into the and apparently the Government do not seem terribly region for arms—from Saudi and other sources—as keen on that, yet President Obama sent a message to well as all the other weapons going in are a major cause Congress on 24 July saying that he approved of the of the current conflict within Iraq. Let us learn the renewal of the agreement and hoped that Congress lesson: intervention everywhere is surely not the solution; would approve it. If it is good enough for Congress to the solution is working with people on development debate the mutual defence agreement, surely it is good and bringing about peaceful solutions to problems rather enough for us to debate it as well. than the obsession with taking military intervention around the world. Helen Goodman: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the best ways to bring down conflict, tension and the 5.35 pm international temperature is to be predictable? These Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Thank you, unclear mandates lead to uncertainty and unpredictability. Mr Speaker, for calling me to speak in this debate on the middle east and security matters. I am sorry that I Jeremy Corbyn: Indeed, and the daily dangers from have been nipping in and out of the Chamber. the situation in Ukraine and eastern Europe are pretty It is important to get my concerns on the record, and obvious for everyone to see. I hope we can think more I will be brief. I am greatly concerned about the impact carefully about this, rather than rushing more and more that events in the middle east are having on our country, troops, more and more arms and more and more missiles and about how these events are being perverted to give into the area, and instead try to search for a political licence to hate. As a tolerant society, we cannot tolerate solution, difficult as I obviously recognise that to be. British people hating British people on the basis of the I want to make two other points. This morning a faith they are born into or choose to follow. I am deeply number of us went to Room 14 to hear a statement disturbed by the personal letters I have received from a from Dr Mustafa Barghouti of the Palestine National number of my Jewish constituents—I have only 250 of Initiative. He showed us a short film that was appalling, them—expressing their distress at what the future holds shocking and horrible. All I was seeing were pictures of in the UK for them and their families. buildings in Gaza that I have visited and known. They These are British citizens who have as much to do are all ruined, and there are 2,000 people dead and with the middle east as I do. It is not right that synagogues many families completely bereft of everything. The now have to be protected by security guards and that 991 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 992 and Security and Security [Mr Charles Walker] and to pursue a peaceful course? Does she not think that that is something that we should have respected, banners are being seen and chants are being heard that and should respect now? say, “Kill all Jews”, “Hitler was right” and “Death to all Jews”. This situation is not tolerable. There are no excuses. Caroline Lucas: I absolutely believe that that is at the heart of the problems that we are facing. The association Mr Burrowes: I totally agree with my hon. Friend, agreement requires Ukraine to steadily approximate its and he is certainly right to raise issues about our Jewish legislation to that of the EU, a process to be monitored constituents in this debate about security. The issue and even enforced by the EU. It sets up a political goes further than the physical threats. For the first time dialogue designed explicitly to in my surgery, I encountered a family that is now fearful “promote gradual convergence on foreign and security matters of its children going on a public bus to a Jewish school, with the aim of Ukraine’s ever-deeper involvement in the European or even of them going alone into the local Asda or security area.” Tesco. The family thinks how they look will give an That is not compatible with what my hon. Friend has indication of their being Jewish and that people will just described, namely the understanding and settlement take an anti-Semitic view. for Ukraine in the past. I believe that at a time of such heightened tension, this agreement is inflammatory and Mr Walker: I am aware of those concerns; they are divisive. shared by members of the Jewish faith in my constituency. The cancer of anti-Semitism is stalking our country Martin Horwood: Does the hon. Lady accept that under the disguise of a new cloak. This cloak must be there are neutral countries in the European Union, stripped away, exposing the wickedness of those who including Ireland, and that that does not imply any kind lurk behind it. I am no saint in these matters. We all of military threat to Russia? Does she accept that the have the weakness to give in to the easy seduction of Budapest memorandum was actually about the giving hate, so it is incumbent on us all to recognise the siren up of nuclear weapons—it did not particularly mention calls of that weakness and keep them in check. any alliances—in return for the guarantee of the respecting In coming here today, I do not want to stand behind of Ukraine’s existing borders and its independence, my Jewish constituents; I do not want to stand beside which Russia has clearly breached? them; I want to stand in front of them. I say this: if I had Christian constituents, Hindu constituents or Muslim Caroline Lucas: There is no doubt that Russia has constituents who felt threatened as a result of their faith clearly breached that, and I absolutely condemn Russia or colour, I would stand in front of them as well. as much as anyone else in the House, but I also think that the EU has been particularly provocative in the 5.38 pm actions that it has taken and in the language in the Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I am association agreement. In my view, to suggest that grateful for the opportunity to take part in this thoughtful Ukraine has a chance of joining the EU or NATO debate. I will start my brief remarks with a reflection on undermines the agreement that was made in the past. Ukraine. In Washington, hawks in Congress are shouting about Russia is undoubtedly breaching international law appeasement, and demanding action such as a NATO and its previous commitment to non-interference in rapid reaction force to be deployed across eastern Europe Ukraine’s affairs. I want to make it crystal clear that I to deter Moscow. Meanwhile, Britain is planning to condemn President Putin’s hostile actions and violation send troops to Ukraine for exercises. I seriously question of Ukraine’s sovereignty. We do, however, have to whether those actions will have the desired effect. The understand better what is going on in that area if we are best instrument for co-operation and peace must be the de-escalate the situation and find the solutions that we UN Security Council. By definition, that must include seek. Russia has long been suspicious of western intentions Russian involvement, and must take account of Russia’s on its borders, and it fears encirclement. The history interests and fears in its own backyard. I share the view and culture of Ukraine and Russia are inextricably that we should declare that Ukrainian membership of bound together. In this context, no Russian Government either the EU or NATO is not on the cards, and never would coolly accept the drawing of Ukraine into the will be. That might help to calm the situation, and it EU or NATO. would be no more than a recognition of geopolitical reality. At the same time, Russia must stop seeing the Extremely experienced and respected commentators world in zero-sum terms, and must stop seeing Ukraine and ex-diplomats, including Sir Roderic Braithwaite as an extension of Russia. and Sir Brian Barder, have observed that the west has badly mishandled relations with both Ukraine and Moscow There are many reasons why it is in Europe’s best with irresponsible talk of EU and NATO membership. interests to re-engage with Russia, and not the least of Members of the European Parliament will vote next those is the rise of the vicious and barbaric terrorism in week on whether to ratify the EU-UK association the middle east. That is why I believe that we should be agreement. I think we should be deeply uneasy about very concerned about what is happening in the context actions and statements that suggest a wish to draw of the rise of ISIL. On Monday, the Prime Minister Ukraine into NATO or the EU at a time when that will rightly said: only escalate tensions. “Britain is clear that we need to oppose not only violent extremists, but the extremist narrative.”—[Official Report, 8 September Jeremy Corbyn: Does the hon. Lady agree that at the 2014; Vol. 585, c. 660.] time of Ukraine’s independence at the end of the Soviet If we are to halt the influence of ISIL’s vile narrative, Union it became specifically a non-nuclear power, and we would do well to try to better understand it, and to specifically sought to be neutral-ish within the region understand why it appeals to some disenchanted and 993 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 994 and Security and Security marginalised young men. Professor Paul Rogers of Bradford Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox). I was university’s peace studies department, who is a specialist one of those who stood up in eastern Europe to defend in international security and politics, points out that our values. I was one of those who stood up for the ISIL and others like it make effective use of western values of tolerance, freedom of speech and particularly foreign policy to advance their warped message of a the rule of law. In this speech, I want to take us back to western expansionist “far enemy” intent on destroying the situation in Israel and Gaza, notwithstanding that Islam. ISIL does not care about consistency, justice, there is a ceasefire, which continues to hold. I also want human rights or international law, but it has been very to draw attention to my entries in the Register of adept at exploiting any double standards on our part—such Members’ Financial Interests. as the illegal invasion of Iraq, and such as continuing The trouble with saying anything about the Israel-Gaza support for the Israeli Government despite ongoing situation is that unless we come out immediately as breaches of international law, repeated horrific and pro-Palestinian, we are put down as just listening to disproportionate attacks on Gaza, and, now, the biggest pro-Israeli military propaganda. This is both untrue land grab in the occupied territories for 30 years. and misses the point. Nothing I say is going to be Double standards are wrong in themselves, but the anti-Palestinian, but what I say is going to be completely fact they are exploited by ISIL is another reason, if it anti-Hamas. were needed, to ensure that we have a foreign policy I have no sympathy for Israel when it comes to the with—dare I say—an ethical dimension. I do not believe building of settlements. The Foreign Secretary has already that there is a “quick fix” military response that will condemned this and I agree with him, and I urge Prime defeat the likes of ISIL. Its ideology and influence need Minister Netanyahu to think again, but it would be to be undermined, and airstrikes will do the opposite. wrong to address the situation in the middle east without That is precisely why ISIL is goading us to invade with condemning Hamas. It would be too easy to be dismissive its terrible, barbaric beheadings. That analysis is backed of the role of Hamas in the current conflict, preferring up by Richard Barrett, the former head of counter-terrorism to take a one-sided view of what Israel can do, rather at MI6, who warns that western military action would than also round on Hamas. I am well aware of the precisely play into IS hands and would, in a sense, be a history of the region. I have been in the region during a recruiting sergeant for it. Airstrikes are sometimes promoted period of Hamas rocket attacks. In fact, I think I was in as some kind of intervention-light, whereas we know Jerusalem when Hamas fired its first rocket in that there is really no such thing—that precision accuracy is direction. in reality all too often not precise. As ISIL well knows, those bombs often result in civilian deaths, which would We should not forget that this conflict came about as greatly assist the extremists’ long-term recruitment drive. a result of Hamas firing rockets at Israel. I cannot see I completely understand the desire to do something, as that it does any good to claim that this is not so. Hamas people are being murdered, starved and raped, but we launched over 4,000 rockets in the recent period. It does must not make things worse. no good to claim simply that these were homemade rockets when so many were Iranian in origin. What does In the short term, the Red Cross principle of impartial this say about those who call for an arms embargo aid to all victims of armed conflict must now dominate against Israel while allowing Hamas still to receive these as our model for humanitarian intervention, not the rockets—these rockets that bring so many in the region doctrine that we must pick one side and help it. Moreover, within their reach? I cannot see that it does any good to our diplomatic efforts must intensify, and I want to claim that few of these fell in Israel or that Iron Dome know what progress has been made on working with protected Israel, as if simply having the means of protection Turkey, given the major concerns that ISIL is selling was itself a crime. Nor does it do any good to see this as stolen oil through the Turkish border. What pressure a numbers game. We all want to see an end to the are we putting on the Gulf regimes like Saudi Arabia—and killing, but totting up how many have been killed does surely that is compromised when, as I discovered in an not provide a justifiable comparison. If we simply descend answer received just today to a parliamentary question, into a one-for-one argument, we descend into an area it transpires that we have more than 200 civil servants into which I, for one, would be ashamed to go. from the MOD working for the Saudi Government? Then there is Qatar, from which funds are often We cannot achieve any results without looking at the channelled to extremist groups, yet this is the same tactics of either side. Hamas effectively uses the civilian Qatar to whom we also sell millions of pounds-worth of population as a shield for its rockets and as a safe haven weaponry. Surely we have more leverage than just calling from which to fire those rockets. We have already seen it Qatar “unwise”as the Prime Minister did on Monday—not using United Nations schools and a medical facility to forgetting that Qataris own a large portion of Sainsbury’s, store rockets. Hamas was described by a constituent a chunk of the London Stock Exchange, and London’s as a iconic Shard. We must continue to work with Iran, too. “brutal and anti-Semitic group which has been accused by Amnesty International and other NGOs of human rights abuses against Then, as I have said, there is also Russia. Unless we the people of Gaza and of war crimes.” change our stance on what is happening in Russia and Ukraine, the possibility of working with Russia to try The shocking images of 22 Palestinians being lined up to stem extremism in the middle east will be massively to be shot for allegedly supporting Israel should have undermined. sent shivers down the spines of those watching. This all demonstrates that the solution to Gaza does not lie in a Hamas-controlled state. I remain convinced that the 5.46 pm region needs a two-state solution. Israeli attempts to John Howell (Henley) (Con): I came to this debate to build more settlements are admittedly not the way listen to what was being said, and I have to say that I forward, but neither is a situation that includes Hamas was deeply impressed by the speech of my right hon. in its current position. 995 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 996 and Security and Security 5.51 pm the law is by mislabelling products. I was really disappointed by the response I received from the Department for Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on that issue. I (Lab): It is a pleasure to be called to speak in this hope that the Home Secretary will be able to say in her important debate. During the summer, I was contacted response to this debate how we are monitoring that and by hundreds of constituents from across Oldham ensuring that the law is enforced. and Saddleworth—the two very distinct parts of my constituency—who were appalled by what was happening The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline in Gaza and Israel. The inter-faith forum comprising all Lucas) and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, religious groups in my constituency mounted a petition Northfield (Richard Burden) have both made important that amassed more than 8,300 signatures in six days. It points about the inconsistency of our approach, which was presented to Downing Street during the recess, and relates to the injustice that people perceive is meted out it called for Parliament to be recalled to debate the crisis by us. There is such a difference in our approach to facing Gaza and Israel. Many of my constituents were different areas. Sanctions against Russia are well deserved, hugely disappointed that the Government did not believe but why is the same not happening in respect of Israel? a recall was warranted. We need to be able to explain that. We have already heard about the tragedy of the loss In the long term, we must press the Israeli Government of life over the past few weeks, in Gaza in particular but to be brave and take action on the settlements built also in Israel. This comes two years after the previous by Israelis on Palestinian land. The most recent violence in the area. After the 2012 bombardment of encroachment, days after the agreed peace deal, was Gaza, I was as appalled as many other hon. Members most unhelpful, to say the least. Israel must also lift the were, and I wanted to go and see for myself exactly what blockade on Gaza, as stipulated in the peace agreement. was happening. It was a moving experience, and it has We must also demand that Israel ends the discriminatory left me with strong views. Consequently, I was disappointed approach of its law. One law is applied to Israeli children that the Prime Minister did not feel able to condemn the and another is applied to Palestinian children. That is indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks by Israel. outrageous. We should be demanding more, not just That was highly regrettable and a huge mistake. We from Israeli leaders, but from the Palestinian leaders of should be able to stand up to our friends and tell them Hamas and Fatah, as they are not blameless. Leaders when we disagree with them. on both sides have let down their people, but there is hope and I believe that ordinary people will prevail. I The Foreign Secretary and my right hon. Friend was sincerely moved by the real desire of ordinary the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South Palestinians and Israelis for peace. In the long term they (Mr Alexander) have rightly said that a Palestinian will prevail. child’s life is worth no less than that of an Israeli child. However, those are only warm words unless they are backed up by action. My hon. Friend the Member for 5.57 pm Newport West (Paul Flynn) has rightly pointed out that James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): much of the anger felt by our young people nationally A network of terror is evolving across the middle east and internationally is a result of the perceived injustice and it poses an existential threat to British and western of no action being taken. Nothing is being done. We interests both there and here at home. ISIL is just the could not even recall Parliament. What message does most recent example of a network of terror that has that send? What does that make politics look like to been evolving over many years and which we need to ordinary people? It really is appalling. confront. ISIL is operating out of Syria and northern We must obviously welcome the peace that we now Iraq, but there are also state-sponsored terrorist have, but history shows us that it will be sustained only organisations, which have not been mentioned extensively if there is international pressure from Egypt and other in this debate, such as Hezbollah and Hamas. So the neighbours as well as from us and, in particular, from terror networks we face are diverse and they often have the United States. Many have called for an investigation competing priorities. into whether the UK has supplied arms and components What would be an appropriate western response to in this area. I was interested in what the Foreign Secretary the threat of ISIL? I agree with my hon. Friend the said about there being no evidence for that, but I would Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) like to see the details published. Until we have sustainable that it is almost as though we have lost the institutional peace across the Occupied Palestinian Territories and capability to analyse what is going on in the world. Israel, there should be an arms embargo from the UK. Because of global networks and the rapidity with which information is disseminated on the internet, we need to Paul Flynn: Does my hon. Friend agree with the up our game in terms of understanding what is happening statement made that Israel is indifferent to opinion in on the ground. Our response has to be multi-level, this country and in many other countries because it is coherent and concerted, because this threat is complex shored up by public opinion in the United States? Is it and evolving, and in order to confront it we need to not time for us to make a stand against Israel and tell change our mindset. it that it has gone too far? In that context, what constitutes an appropriate response? It is right that we consider using British military air Debbie Abrahams: I could not agree more with my power, if required, but that needs to be done in the hon. Friend. The EU association agreement with Israel context of building alliances with other Gulf states to and the preferential trade terms should also be re-examined. support the peshmerga and the Iraqi armed forces on The UK’s trade with Israel’s illegal settlements in Palestinian the ground, in order to defeat ISIL on the physical territory is not only illegal under international law, but battlefield. It is critical that we recognise that there is a barrier to long-term peace. One way people get around not only the physical battlefield but a digital one, which 997 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 998 and Security and Security requires as much energy to confront. The battle against With regard to legal authority, I hope that whatever the networks is being played out on the internet and in action we take we commit ourselves to ensuring that it cyberspace. It is a mistake to view ISIL purely as some is done through the United Nations with an appropriate kind of mediaeval phenomenon. Although it might be resolution. No action should be taken unless there is the promulgating a mediaeval philosophy, the group appropriate resolution. That was the problem with Iraq understands the potential of the digital world to disseminate that caused such division both in our community and its message, the power of viruses on the internet and throughout the world. how to manipulate global opinion. I am concerned that we seem to be rushing fairly As I have said, the theatre of this war is not just quickly to an extensive bombing campaign. No bombing physical but digital, and ISIL’s capability in that area campaign is based on precision bombing. We have seen will only improve and expand. We need to ensure that that time and again, in every intervention in the past our response is equally flexible. We must be clear about century.Proportionality was introduced to protect civilians the values that we want to promulgate on social networks. but, in the bombing campaigns we have waged in recent We want to encourage moderate groups, which believe years, there has been no protection of civilians. in peace and in moving this situation forward. That leads us to the question of who should undertake We need to confront the evil ideology of ISIL through action if action is taken. There is an excellent article by the use of our soft power and to understand how we can Sunny Hundal on the Labour List website—I mention use those networks in a way that confronts ISIL and that because it contains many of my own thoughts and those who wish to use social networking to disseminate I do not want him to accuse me of plagiarism. UK their message. We need to use our soft power to come engagement is exactly what ISIS wants. It wants the US, up with political solutions that people in the region can the UK and other western countries to invade Iraq and buy into and that take us forward. kill civilians, because that would unite radical Sunni As other Members have said, we must not be trapped elements in the middle east against such intervention. by history. We need to learn the lessons from the wars in Sunny’s second point, which I fully agree with, is that Iraq and Afghanistan, but we must not be paralysed by ISIS would want to ally us with Assad, or even elements past mistakes. We should recognise that the circumstances of the Assad regime if he goes. That, too, would unite and the conditions that we now face are very different radical Islamist forces against the west. As Sunny points from those 10 years ago. It is important that we are out, ISIS would want the symbolism of the UK linking clear about the values that we want to assert in the up with the US yet again to invade or threaten to take world. There is a perception, which has been building military against a Muslim country. I fear that UK over time, that the west is retreating. It is felt that the involvement will mean that we have fallen into the trap US is retreating from the world and that, because of the that ISIS has set us. vote that we had in the House of Commons last year, If in accordance with just war theory there is a sound the UK is too. But it is a perception. We must not reason or a just cause for intervention, if it is the last retreat. We must prepare ourselves, be flexible and be resort and if it is a humanitarian intervention, I plead ready for a long haul. that the UK is not part of it. I agree with other hon. Members that other states in the region have a responsibility 6.2 pm to act. They also have the resources to act. They have John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I the military resources because we have sold them those apologise profusely for being out of the debate for most resources. In recent years, Europe has sold Qatar ¤200 of the afternoon. I heard the speeches by the Front million-worth of military hardware. We have sold Jordan Benchers and then I had to attend a meeting at the ¤34 million-worth of military hardware. Saudi Arabia Home Office about the data retention Bill. has had ¤2,264 million in military exports. I wish to discuss the issues that have been brought to my attention by my constituents. I will try not to repeat Jeremy Corbyn: Is my Friend aware that Saudi Arabia the points that I have heard. All sides of the argument has possibly the worst human rights record in the have been eloquently made. I want to focus on Syria region? It is unclear where many of the weapons that and Iraq. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington are sold to Saudi Arabia end up. North (Jeremy Corbyn) has been in the House longer than me, but I have been here for 17 years, and on each John McDonnell: The whole argument was that the occasion that we have discussed intervening in another weapons were sold to Saudi Arabia so that they could country, there has been early consideration of the legality be used in its defence, and to ensure that in the region it of such a move. I remember the discussions that we had has a military presence that can effect the suppression on Iraq, and the elaboration of the just war theory, of violence and the maintenance of peace. We have sold which comes all the way down from Thomas Aquinas. those weapons to those states, and it is now their Under the just war theory, before we enter into responsibility to intervene on a humanitarian basis if military action of any sort, particularly in another necessary within the region. I agree that bombs usually country, there has to be just cause, appropriate legal do nothing more than elicit more violence; my hon. authority, proportionality, and the action should be Friend has made that point in the past. Therefore, we taken in the last resort. Those are just some elements of should ensure that we supply humanitarian aid to the the just war theory. I am anxious that we are taking the region. next step towards military intervention in Iraq and Like other hon. Members, I was lobbied all summer Syria without full cognisance of our legal position. Is on Gaza. We had a meeting of 200 people in my there a just cause for an intervention at this stage by this constituency, which mobilised with the 100,000 on the state—the United Kingdom—when there are other parties demonstration. People tell me that British citizens fight that could be acting? not just in the Palestinian cause and elsewhere in the 999 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 1000 and Security and Security [John McDonnell] Jeremy Corbyn: Does the hon. Gentleman not think that a political dialogue is needed at all levels, including middle east, but for the Israel defence force. I would like Hamas in the elected Government of Gaza, to bring to know from the Home Secretary what action will be about and encourage a unified Government in Palestine, taken with regard to their passports, and what action which will be in the interests of all Palestinians and of will be taken against them when they seek to return to the region? this country. Crispin Blunt: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. We face the much bigger question of how we will 6.8 pm engage with political Islam. I am a secular, gay, western Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): May I draw the House’s politician, and the values of political Islam are absolutely attention to my entry in the register, not least as an antithetical to mine, but people should be allowed to unremunerated director of the Council for the Advancement stand for election on a platform that brings their religious of Arab-British Understanding? beliefs into play, much as the Muslim Brotherhood have I want to make two central points in the time available throughout much of the middle east. We have yet to to me. First, the mission is clear. The mission of the address the question of how we will engage with the international community should be to destroy the Islamic Muslim Brotherhood fairly and reasonably, rather than State. It would be a humanitarian action. Its behaviour doing so unfairly and unreasonably, tainting them with and the appalling terror it has meted out in the area it things of which they are not guilty. If their supporters controls comfortably jumps that hurdle. Having said cannot support the Brotherhood and are unreasonably that, the response must come from the international suppressed, they might eventually make the transition community, under the authority of a resolution of the to the ghastliness of what we have seen in Islamic State. Security Council of the United Nations. For obvious In achieving a political and military mission to destroy reasons, it should be seen not as a western intervention Islamic State and everything it stands for, we must against Islamic State but as one that involves the nations isolate it from the other political forces in the region. of the region. In that sense, it is essential to have the That means establishing the criteria by which we engage engagement of Iraq and Syria as the areas of the with political Islam. battlefield on which this war must be fought and won, My request to the Government, as they sit on the and the neighbouring nations of Turkey, Iran and Saudi Jenkins report on the behaviour of the Egyptian Muslim Arabia must be part of the coalition. Brotherhood and its potential engagement, or not, with We cannot just fight this war in Iraq because Syria terrorist activities, is to establish in that report the has an air defence system under the control of someone criteria of what is reasonable and acceptable for a with whom we do not want to do business, because then political movement such as the Muslim Brotherhood we will not achieve our mission and destroy Islamic to undertake. What is the reasonable playing field for it State. In this complex area, we will, at the same time, to engage with me and the rest of us in the battle have to force a settlement, as far as is possible, between of ideas and ideology to which my right hon. Friend the Assad, the Free Syrian Army and the moderate Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) referred? constitutional forces of political Islam that are ranged 6.15 pm against him. That means getting the Geneva process going and, critically, getting the Russians engaged, because Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I have listened Assad is Russia’s client. Just as the Russians enabled us intently to the previous speeches. Given the political to relieve him of his chemical weapons, they will be unrest that continues to grow, it does not surprise me to central in getting him to the negotiating table. hear the many economic, political and humanitarian concerns that have been raised by so many Members. My central point has been repeated many times in As my party’s spokesperson on human rights, I want to this House. Despite the issues we face in trying to get speak about the violations of human rights that have international co-operation to support Iraq—such as the taken place across Ukraine, the middle east and north complexity of Kurdistan and the nature of the sectarian Africa—specifically, the persecution of Christians and government that has plagued Iraq for the past few what has happened to them. Some Members touched years—achieving the military mission will, somehow or on that, particularly the right hon. Members for North other, have to involve Syria and Iraq. East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) and for Wolverhampton Secondly, we must find a way of dealing fairly with South East (Mr McFadden). political Islam. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Were it not for Russia annexing Crimea and the Henley (John Howell), I much appreciated the speech unrest that there has been in the east, in particular, made by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Ukraine was on the cusp of something good. The Davis Somerset (Dr Fox). There is a battle of ideas, but the cup tennis event was to be held there at the beginning of playing field on which the battle of ideology will be August, but that could not happen because of the carried out must be properly defined. My right hon. unrest. Then there was the dreadful downing of flight Friend did not address the question of why Hamas MH17 back in July, when so many people lost their behaves as it does and why perfectly decent Palestinian lives—a ghastly attack. The intervention of Russian students studying in London who are not religious troops in Ukraine, in collusion with the pro-Russian fundamentalists support Hamas. We need to get to a groups that live in the country, has left many Christians place where we understand the forces of political Islam fearful of suffering persecution at their hands. Today that we are dealing with. we have an opportunity to speak for them. Corey Bailey The Government are now sitting on a review of the of International Christian Concern has said that last Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, conducted by Sir John month four volunteers from the Far East Broadcasting Jenkins. Company in Ukraine, which broadcasts the gospel across 1001 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 1002 and Security and Security that country, were pulled from their building, and once Mr Speaker: Order. In order to accommodate the it was discovered that they were evangelical Christians, six remaining Back-Bench colleagues who wish to take they were beaten to death for their faith. Corey Bailey part, I am afraid that I have, with immediate effect, to has claimed that pro-Russian separatists are suspicious reduce the time limit on Back-Bench contributions to three of foreign or western influences and see evangelical minutes. Christians as a threat. Andrew Bennett, Canada’s ambassador for religious 6.20 pm freedom, has warned of the persecution of Catholics as Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): May I apologise the political crisis grows in Ukraine. There are clearly for missing a large part of the debate because of Select concerns about Christians of all denominations. In July Committee duties? Personally I find great danger in this year, it was revealed that two deacons from the these types of debates, because I do not have all the facts. Church of Christians of Evangelical Faith and the two If I had been fully and properly briefed by a general and sons of the church’s pastor had been tortured and by MI6, my words would, I hope, be wiser, but I will do murdered at the hands of the separatists. The so-called the best I can with what I have learned and read. militia of the Donetsk People’s Republic broke into the This is a debate on world security, particularly in the premises of the church and took the four men away. middle east and the Gulf states. I want to touch briefly The terrorists also charged the church members with on two points relating to the NATO summit and any a crime against the DNR—namely, support for the possible military conflict in Iraq. Ukrainian army. Kidnappings, beatings, torture, threats of death and assaults at places of prayer are all happening I am delighted that NATO appears to have woken up to Christians in Ukraine, and we cannot ignore their to the fact that responsibility must be shared and that plight. the share of the budget must be increased to at least 2% over the next 10 years. Why, however, should it take The title of the debate also refers to the middle east 10 years? If we look around the world, we see what a and north Africa. At one stage, 20% of the population chaotic state it is in, so I would suggest that it should be in north Africa and the middle east were Christian; that done in one year or even less. Why should the United figure has now fallen to 4%. We are all aware of the States continue to bear so much of the responsibility for toxic spread of ISIL across the middle east. In recent world security? Every time they do something, they are weeks, the western world has been brought to its knees often pilloried for it. They may get it right or wrong, but in mourning for the two American journalists who were surely we would be in a better place to criticise if we so brutally murdered because of their nationality—their took a bigger share of responsibility. rights, beliefs and freedoms as Americans. We have all joined in condemnation of this terrorist attack and of To a certain extent, I agree with the hon. Member for the so-called British citizens fighting their war. Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) that we should stop intervening in countries such as Iraq. In my view, the The World Watch List includes Syria, where 600,000 intervention in Iraq was a disaster—and so it has been Christians have fled the country or lost their lives in the proved. However, if we go into countries such as Iraq civil war and where I fear that Christianity will cease to with promises that we will save them, restore all the exist. In Iraq, we have seen the displacement of some things they want and help them live as near as possible 500,000 people around Mosul and the plains of Nineveh. to a law-abiding life, do we not have a responsibility Virtually all of Mosul’s remaining Christian population when we pull out? We have lost brave members of our has fled. I believe that there is an axis of evil. In Iran, all armed forces who have been killed or severely wounded. Christian activity is illegal, from evangelism to Bible To simply leave such a country and abandon it to its fate training and even reading of the scripture. The Iranian would be a dereliction of our duty. Future politicians regime’s constitution and criminal code has legalised should ask the question raised by the hon. Gentleman: barbaric punishments for Christians such as amputation do we go in, can we afford to go in and how on earth do of limbs, gouging out of eyes, crucifixion, torture and we get out; and if we do get out, should we go back in if public executions. In addition, pregnant women are what we were attempting to do has not been achieved? executed and women in jail are abused. This happens in Iran on a regular basis. I am not for one minute advocating boots on the ground, but if we were asked by an international In Sudan, faith-related killings, damaging of Christian confederation, including the Iraqis, to send troops to properties, detention and forced marriage are taking help deal with this minority group of 13,000 people— place. We welcome the fact that Meriam Ibrahim was militarily we could succeed and teach a lesson to this able to leave Sudan and go to Italy, but there are many barbaric group—would the Government consider putting others like her. British military boots on the ground? Finally, despite international pressure and the Finally, if any British military action, including bombing, involvement of the Nigerian military, there has been no is to take place, will the Prime Minister and the Executive sign at all of the kidnapped girls in Nigeria, which is of come to the House to ask its permission to send our great concern to us. armed forces into harm’s way? This has been a sombre debate. I urge the Government to be aware of the desperate plight of Christians and 6.23 pm minorities across the world. Unfortunately, their struggles David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): I want to focus are often lost in the military or political coverage of on Ukraine and Russia in the short time allowed to me. these conflicts. Let us not be the country that stands In 1988 and the early 1990s I chaired a parliamentary silent while such suffering goes on all around us. group, the Future of Europe Trust, dedicated to building links with Russia. I am appalled at what has happened Several hon. Members rose— between Russia and Ukraine. It is totally unnecessary 1003 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 1004 and Security and Security [David Tredinnick] Syria and Iraq. We must also recognise that there is a need to look at the historical view, including by asking and I think the west has done quite a lot of damage who were the friends of the British in Iraq. When we through not consulting on moves towards European remember the centenary of the first world war, we Union membership for Ukraine after its nuclear should ask ourselves, “Who manned the Iraq levies?” It disarmament. I also think that the approach of NATO was the Assyrian Chaldeans, the Christians who now has been quite wrong. face extermination at the hands of ISIS jihadists. Such I refer the House to what the then US Secretary of historical bonds should have an effect on our view of State Mr Baker said at the time of the reunification of the national interest. Germany. He said that there would be As has already been said, we must recognise that ISIS “no extension of NATO’s jurisdiction for forces of NATO one stands for the destruction of homes, lives and places of inch to the east”. worship—such as the tomb of Jonah in the city of The Russian newspaper Kommersant reported that President Nineveh—that have stood the test of time and existed Putin made it clear at the 2008 NATO conference in for the Assyrians for some 6,000 years. As several hon. Bucharest that, because Ukraine and, for that matter, Members have said, including my hon. Friend the Member Belarus are so clearly in Russia’s back yard, any move for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris), this towards bringing NATO to Ukraine would cause severe network has not just sprung up over the summer, but problems with Russia. We have to take that into has existed for many years. It threatens basic freedoms, consideration. There is also the history of Crimea, not least that of religion. Boko Haram has declared a which was taken by French and British forces, and that caliphate in Nigeria and militant Islam is having an means Russia would see NATO coming into Ukraine as impact in Indonesia, Pakistan and Egypt. another defeat. Russia has always had security worries What must we do? I look forward to hearing about since the French attack under Napoleon and, of course, further action when Ministers return to the House. Such that by Hitler in the second world war. action should include aid—we should not underestimate However, I see Russia potentially as a friend. It the huge humanitarian support and aid coming from helped us enormously through the northern distribution Britain—as well as safety. My hon. Friend the Member network when the Afghan war was at its height, and for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) talked about it did not interrupt our use of the Manas air base the need for a safe zone. That would be complex and in Kyrgyzstan. If we do not make some sort of would take time, but we should consider it. accommodation with Russia, we will have huge problems In the meantime, we must not ignore the need for with Iran. Many hon. Friends have referred to the need asylum and safety. Australia has been very generous, to deal with the Syrian theatre, which is also a subject in like other countries, and has suggested that it will take this debate, but without Russian help that will be impossible. some 4,400 Iraqi or Syrian refugees. I understand that, We need to be accommodating as far the small Russian under the vulnerable persons relocation scheme, 50 or base at Tartus in Syria is concerned. so refugees have come to this country. We must be ready The way forward is to say firmly that NATO will not to follow the Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, move into Ukraine, part of which is anyway in Asia. who has said that The European Union needs to show some sympathy in “watching preventable genocide is not a credible option”. dealing with that. We now need a realistic policy: we In other words, we should say, “Never again”. cannot go on with expansion that undermines Russian security, and we must think very carefully about bringing 6.29 pm the Russians on board to resolve the terrible problems in Syria, Iraq and the surrounding areas. David T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): When Parliament met last year to discuss military action in Syria, I asked 6.26 pm myself two questions. The first was: does Assad’s Government pose some sort of threat to the United Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I Kingdom? In my opinion, the answer was, and still is, welcome this debate. Sadly, I feel that it is too little and clearly no. The second question that was important to too late, given the time available to us to address the answer was: would the action we took be likely to subject and given that I believe Parliament should have improve things for the civilians living in Syria? Again I been recalled many weeks ago because of the genocidal felt that the answer was no. That was based partly on atrocities that we have seen, sadly, in Iraq and Syria conversations that I had had in Syria with leaders of over the summer. Christian communities, who condemned Assad but warned We talk about history and the shadow it casts—with that the alternatives would be far worse. In considering Iraq and, indeed, the Syria vote—but that emphasises whether we should support military action against ISIS, how Parliament needs to be involved at the earliest as we are now, I asked myself the same questions. stage if it is to consider the scale of any threat; to hold This has been a tremendous debate. I have listened the Government to account for their actions or, as some with interest and have learned something from virtually of us see it, inaction; and to ensure that Parliament is everyone who has spoken. I have agreed with much that behind the way the Government are going not only in has been said by Opposition Members. This time, I have relation to decisions that have already been made, such come up with slightly different answers. I believe that as to arm the peshmerga, but in relation to further ISIS does pose a threat to the United Kingdom. Its aim action, not least air strikes, that should be properly is to spread its warped version of its religion at the considered by Parliament. point of a sword. Many of its followers come from The Prime Minister recognises that there is a need to Britain and may come back to Britain and commit establish what is in the national interest, but the jihadists atrocities here. My answer to the question whether have widened that by extending it into the terrain of intervention would help civilians in the area is also yes. 1005 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 1006 and Security and Security It would help not only the Christians, but the Yazidis, throughout this country and the wider world. I also the Kurds, the Shi’a and even the Sunni Muslims who want to see a long-term regional settlement in the area, do not want that kind of Sunni Islam to be imposed with something like the London committee that Churchill upon them. I therefore believe that there are humanitarian had in the war being convened. The brightest people in reasons for taking military action. the middle east, with representatives of all of its If that conclusion is correct, we have to consider communities, could sit down and talk to work out how working with other people who are opposed to ISIS. we could bring peace to the region. It is a complex That clearly means talking to Iran, which has an enormous region, and that is why it is so compelling. We should do role in the region. Uncomfortable though it may be for our best to create the circumstances for that. Regardless some, myself included, it also means considering talks of the result of next week’s referendum, this country of some sort with Assad’s Government. I am mindful has a role and a responsibility in that, and we should that during the second world war we were forced to step up to the plate. work with Stalin, who killed more people than Hitler. We were right to do so, because Hitler posed the obvious 6.35 pm threat to our security. Since then, we have continued to Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): work with regimes with dubious human rights records In his remarks to the House on Monday, the Prime because we have been afraid of the alternatives. If we Minister spoke of the opportunity offered by the new are committed to ridding ourselves of the evil that is Government in Baghdad. There is a certain tension ISIS, we have to be willing to work with anyone who is between that remark and those of the Foreign Secretary prepared to share the commitment to get rid of it. when he spoke of taking stronger action on the financing of Islamic State. IS has been in place for three years and 6.32 pm is now largely self-financing. It has got money from Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con): This is a broad Mosul, where it had a significant windfall, and it controls topic and there is limited time. I think that Parliament areas of Syria. On the issue of its financing, the horse has a role to play in developing strategies not just for has bolted. the middle east, Russia and Ukraine, but for countries There is urgency with the arrival of the new Government, throughout the world. The contributions today, particularly and I hope that one response will be for the Foreign those of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton Secretary to visit them personally in Baghdad. I hope South East (Mr McFadden), my right hon. and learned that he will also go to Kurdistan, where, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), my Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham Zahawi) correctly identified, the UK Government have (Mr Redwood) and my hon. Friend the Member for leverage, not least because of the record of Sir John Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), have been so Major and the 1991 no-fly zones. good that we should create the time for people to debate What has come out of contributions from all parts of these matters in the Chamber. To have discussed puppy the House today is a desire for greater clarity about the farming and hospital parking last week was a disgrace. I UK Government’s objectives. On Syria, the right hon. am ashamed of this Chamber and the way that must Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) queried what our have looked to the wider community. objective was in relation to Assad—what do we see I fully support the important immediate measures replacing him, and how is that consistent with the that the Government have taken to tackle extremism at Iranian view? What will the territory look like once home, although in the five hours that I have been here I Assad has gone? Likewise, it seems a step beyond a long have not heard many contributions about security at shot for us to expect a unified Iraq, given the Sunni home. The Home Secretary is fully aware of my views legacy concerns about Baghdad and the fact that the about the need to move certain communities in this Kurdish state now has a Prime Minister, a President, its country from being patriarchal to being more matriarchal. own armed forces, its own legitimate demands and its That is part of the solution to the challenges that we people dying in the field. I would be keen to see the face. I fully support the alleviation of suffering in the more realistic objective of a federal structure set. middle east and all the international development funding As my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The that has been spent on that. Attempts at defeating ISIS Border (Rory Stewart) said, the resources need to be in also have my support. place for intelligence and a diplomatic capability, but I want this country to have enough independence to the political masters also need to listen that intelligence. be able to do what is right in the world. By independence, The sense is often that advice from those at the sharp I mean energy independence. As I have said repeatedly end is not taken on board. in the Chamber, energy policy drives foreign policy, Finally, we need to be clearer in our expectations. which drives defence policy. That is the order. I would Before we commit UK military resource, we should like to see energy independence from Russia and from challenge the Sunni Gulf states that we have supplied the Gulf states, which may have contributed to the arms to and that have deep pockets. It will help us formation of ISIS over recent years. That requires a address the issue of radicalisation in the UK if the fight long-term strategy. I encourage the relevant Committees against odious regimes is led by fellow Sunnis rather and Departments to look at our energy policy. I serve than western intervention. on the Energy and Climate Change Committee, but I struggle to discern a UK energy policy. 6.38 pm The second thing that I want to see is a long-term vision. What can we do now that will lead to a better Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) world? Of course tackling ISIS is important, but we (Lab): As many hon. Members have said, this has been should go on to root out extremism in all its forms a wide-ranging and deeply thoughtful debate. At a time 1007 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 1008 and Security and Security [Yvette Cooper] Valley (Ann Clwyd) and the hon. Member for Stratford- on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) debated the Iraqi Government, when, understandably, many Members of all parties are and the right hon. Member for Croydon South (Sir Richard focusing on the Union and our own constitutional Ottaway) and my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop debate, it is important that today, on behalf of England, Auckland (Helen Goodman) spoke about sanctions Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, we have debated and Russia. The hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) how to keep all our citizens safe using our enviable and others spoke about the awful conditions in Gaza, international power, partnerships, intelligence infrastructure, and the need to break out of the cycle of violence. military capabilities and other resources. We have discussed The right hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire how to protect our own people as well as civilians (Alistair Burt) spoke about events and the response to overseas, and how to protect and pursue our values for ISIL, and rightly argued about the importance of that those who are caught up in horrific conflicts. response being led by those in the region—the Iraqi Government, the Kurdish Regional Government and Mr McFadden: Does my right hon. Friend think that members of the Arab League. My hon. Friend the that point is particularly important given that Glasgow Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) said that we airport suffered its own terrorist attack a couple of cannot turn our backs or walk away, and that we are years ago, which shows that the whole UK faces the most effective when we work in partnership. same threat from the forces that are attacking our way We have had a wide-ranging debate on all those of life? issues, but in my remaining minutes I want to concentrate on security, and particularly the implications for domestic Yvette Cooper: We do face the same threats right security. Although most of the debate has been about across the United Kingdom, and we stand together ISIL and the threat it poses, we have been warned for most effectively against those threats when we work many months by the Security Service about the threat together, including our intelligence and security agencies that ISIL and the conflict in Syria have been posing to and police forces. We should pay tribute to those bodies, our domestic security at home. That was brought savagely because they work immensely hard throughout the Union, home to us by the terrible videos of the beheadings of as has been reflected in today’s debate. American journalists, with a British voice being heard, and the threat to British citizens who are kidnapped. As Members across the House have shown great experience the Foreign Secretary said earlier, that appears to be at in their contributions, particularly in foreign affairs, the hands of a British citizen who has joined the barbarism, which shows how seriously we take the threats to regional and we have been warned about many of our citizens and global stability, as well as to our interests at home. who have become involved. This has been a difficult debate to sum up, because the We have had threats from extremists against Britain range of contributions has been so diverse. I therefore before, so this is not new. Since 9/11, 330 people have say to the Government that adding those four issues been convicted of terrorism-related offences in Britain. together in a single debate has perhaps strained its We have seen attacks inspired by al-Qaeda, and attacks nature and made it complex to respond to. carried out or attempted by British citizens—some trained We heard about the principles of foreign policy and abroad, many radicalised at home. Last year we had the how far we should learn from our international history. awful attack on Drummer Lee Rigby, and the murder The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe by a right-wing extremist of Mohammed Saleem. (Mr Clarke) spoke about Iraq, the hon. Member for We stand against extremism and violence in all its Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) about Afghanistan, forms wherever we see it, whether that is by condemning and my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness the appalling rise in anti-Semitic attacks or the awful (John Woodcock) about Syria, and they mentioned increase in Islamophobic attacks, or condemning those the lessons of each of those decisions. My right hon. who become involved in terrorist organisations or extremist Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East groups and who do not share our values, no matter that (Mr McFadden) warned that we must learn from the they may have been born or brought up in Britain. past but not be imprisoned by it. Those who join ISIL extremists are going to join no We debated how far we should engage and Britain’s Spanish civil war. They are beheading people and parading role in the world, and the right hon. Members for their heads on spikes, subjugating women and girls, and Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and for North Somerset killing Muslims, Christians and anyone who gets in (Dr Fox) and my right hon. Friend the Member for their way. As many hon. Members have said clearly, this Neath (Mr Hain) had different perspectives on what is no liberation movement; it is a perverted, oppressive Britain’s role could be. As the shadow Foreign Secretary ideology that bears no relation to Islam. Some of the made clear, in a complex world with new and complex strongest voices against young Britons joining the conflict threats, it is ever more important for us to work through have been Muslim youth groups, communities and parents partnerships and alliances, rather than to seek isolation. desperate to stop young people going. We agree with We have debated the roles of strategy and the principles the Government that more needs to be done to prevent of military engagement and diplomacy or, as my hon. young people from being drawn into the conflict and to Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston deal with the threat they pose. (Ms Stuart) said, how we use the weapons of the More could also be done to improve the situation. We military and the weapons of the mind. We heard a have called for improvements to the Prevent programme. detailed contribution from my right hon. Friend the The Home Secretary has said previously that before Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) who spoke about 2010 the programme was flawed but has now been the importance of Iran, and other hon. Members mentioned improved, and she has defended its effectiveness. I hope Turkey. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon she will review that because there are gaps in the programme. 1009 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 1010 and Security and Security There were flaws in it before and there are flaws in it 6.49 pm now. Things change all the time and more needs to be done, working with communities to support community-led The Secretary of State for the Home Department programmes to prevent young people from being (Mrs Theresa May): We have indeed had an extremely radicalised. interesting debate and have heard a wide range of views. The programme must keep up with new methods of The debate was opened by a powerful and thoughtful radicalisation. Young people are now being recruited speech by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, not simply by traditional methods, but by appeals through who set out the Government’s position with great clarity. social media, contacts from friends and so on—different I welcome the careful and serious response from the kinds of approaches that need to be responded to. shadow Foreign Secretary and his hope that it will be Excellent work is being done by the Channel programme, possible to work together to address the challenges we but more people, particularly those returning from the face, for events in Ukraine, north Africa and most region, must be required to engage immediately with particularly the middle east all pose grave and significant the programme, which has done important work challenges, and it is right that the House has had a de-radicalising people and reducing the threat. The chance to debate these issues fully. Government should also do more in respect of temporary Indeed, the role of Parliament, not just in debating passport seizures. Some who left should have been these issues but in consideration of possible military stopped, and we look forward to working with the action, was a theme referred to by a number of hon. Government on ways to bring in those powers. Members, including my right hon. and learned Friends I hope the Home Secretary will say more about the the Members for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) and for North measures the Prime Minister announced, because there East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) and my hon. Friends is some confusion around them. Downing street has the Members for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) briefed that people born as British citizens will be and for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray). As the shadow prevented from returning to the country, even if they Home Secretary said, there have been a large number of have no alternative citizenship. The Prime Minister says contributions to this debate. I might not be able to refer that this would comply with international obligations— to all of them, but I will do my best during the time international law prevents countries from making their available to me. citizens stateless—and has said it would be a targeted, A number of speakers referred to Ukraine, including discretionary power to allow us to exclude British nationals the hon. Members for Preston (Mark Hendrick) and for from the UK. It sounds as though the Government Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) and my hon. Friends intend people to remain British citizens but be kept out the Members for Bosworth (David Tredinnick) and of the country. How would this work? Do they hope for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). The hon. Member for that other countries will adopt people? Is this a temporary Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) raised a specific exclusion? Are they to be detained at foreign airports or issue about the annexation of Crimea. I can assure her to be deported somewhere else? What is the plan? There that this Government do not and will not recognise the is considerable confusion, and no one has yet been able illegal annexation of Crimea by Russia. The hon. Member to understand their intention. for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) reminded us that what On the proposals for terrorism prevention and is happening in Ukraine has had an impact on us here, investigation measures, the Prime Minister has said that by referring to the fact that sadly one of her constituents relocation powers will be restored, but the Deputy died in the attack on flight MH17. Prime Minister has said they are looking only at existing A number of other Members focused on Israel, Hamas powers. The Home Secretary knows our view: we have and Gaza. Not all of them shared the same analysis of argued from the start that the police and security services these issues. My hon. Friend the Member for Henley need relocation powers at their disposal, subject to the (John Howell) spoke about the threat from Hamas. The agreement of the courts, to be used in the difficult cases hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) also of terror suspects who, for complex reasons, cannot be referred to these issues and asked about debating the prosecuted. She has defended the removal of relocation US-UK mutual defence agreement. I can tell him that, powers in the past, but I hope she will now recognise the in accordance with the Constitutional Reform and importance of reintroducing them. None of those relocated Governance Act 2010, proposed amendments will be under control orders ever absconded, whereas two of laid before Parliament for scrutiny later in the year. The those in whose cases the relocation powers were removed issue of Gaza was also referred to by the hon. Members under TPIMs did then abscond. She has not confirmed for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for that relocation powers will be introduced or said when Newport West (Paul Flynn). they will be introduced. The powers are ready, in the clauses drafted and scrutinised as part of emergency The hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth legislation, and we stand ready to bring them in as soon (Debbie Abrahams) raised some specific issues, including as she brings them forward. Will she confirm that she one relating to DEFRA. I will ensure that she gets a intends to do so? written response to her question. This has been a complex and thoughtful debate. The For most Members of the House, however, this was challenge is to protect our security and the values of an opportunity to refer to issues relating to Iraq and our democracy. In certain areas, we need not only Syria. Some common themes came out from their strong powers but strong checks and balances to protect contributions. The first—perhaps it seems an obvious the values and the liberty of our democracy, as well as one, but it is still worth saying—was that anything we the safety of our citizens. The challenge abroad is to act do should mean acting in the national interest. A number with humility but determination and to pursue the of Members referred to the importance in doing that of co-operation and collaboration we need at a time when considering our values, which underpin our actions. those threats are becoming more complex than ever. They included my right hon. Friend the Member for 1011 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa 1012 and Security and Security [Mrs Theresa May] There was not always an agreed position on Syria. It was interesting to note that the right hon. Members for North Somerset (Dr Fox), the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and for Neath (Mr Hain), both Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) and my senior members of the Opposition and former Cabinet hon. Friends the Members for Halesowen and Rowley Members, joined by my hon. Friend the Member for Regis (James Morris) and for Penrith and The Border Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), were all of the mind (Rory Stewart), who advocated more funding for the that there should be talks with Assad—a position not Foreign and Commonwealth Office—I am not sure shared by the Government. whether the Foreign Secretary was here at that point. We are ever alert to the changing nature of the threat My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The posed by terrorism to Britain and its interests abroad. Border also referred to the importance of the knowledge, In recent years, we have seen the threat continue to understanding and expertise in the Foreign Office in diversify, and it can come from any number of countries looking at these issues, but also the understanding that or groups. It is manifesting itself most sharply at present we need to have of our place in the world and the values in Syria, but north Africa and the Sahel are also examples that underpin the actions we undertake. of this worrying trend. Extremist groups, including My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb and like-minded groups Horwood) and the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil in Libya, are increasingly able to operate across vast Wilson) referred to the NATO summit, the latter saying and ungoverned spaces. that what came out of it underlined the United Kingdom’s Last year, we saw an al-Qaeda-linked group attack place in the world. the In Amenas gas facility in Algeria, killing 40 people, There was also a shared analysis of the brutality and including six British nationals. We have seen terrorist barbarism of ISIL and the threat that it poses to the attacks in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya, and a threat to United Kingdom. Reference to that was made by, for British nationals of kidnap and attack. We are working example, the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness closely with our Government counterparts in north (John Woodcock) and my hon. Friend the Member for Africa to support them in countering the terrorist threats Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes). more effectively, but tackling terrorism in such areas remains a real challenge, making it all the more imperative The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) to take a robust and comprehensive domestic approach talked about the actions—the terrible actions in some to countering terrorism. cases—taken against Christians, not just in Iraq but in other parts of the world, and about the impact of those Before I focus on Syria and Iraq in that connection, actions. My right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon let me respond to a point raised by the right hon. South (Sir Richard Ottaway) made a link, which I do Member for Blackburn about Iran and the issue of not think anybody else made, between the operation of reopening an embassy in Tehran. We will do that as ISIL and its financing from criminal activities. soon as the practical issues can be resolved, including those associated with re-establishing any visa service. I Another theme was the need to build alliances in am sure he will understand the need for the appropriate order to deal with the threat. The hon. Member for infrastructure, staffing and the processes to ensure that Ilford South (Mike Gapes) said that we need a coalition we can offer a proper service. It is the practical to defeat the caliphate. My hon. Friend the Member for considerations that are a matter of concern. Bracknell (Dr Lee) talked about working with states in the middle east and made reference to his long-standing The collapse of Syria and the emergence of terrorist concern about the need to work with communities here groups such as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant in the United Kingdom. pose very significant challenges to our national security. As we have heard, we are seeing an unprecedented A theme in a number of speeches was that the concentration of the terrorist threat in and from Syria Government should work to a strategy, but also that we and Iraq. Terrorist groups fighting in Syria are supported should be prepared to take the action necessary to by increasing numbers of foreign fighters, including protect our national security. The possibility of airstrikes numbers in the hundreds from this country and thousands was referred to by a number of Members, including my from elsewhere. This presents a significant challenge right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire due not only to the number of people fighting with the (Alistair Burt) and my hon. Friend the Member for many Syria and Iraq-based terrorist groups, but to their Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron). Having said that, proximity to the UK, ease of travel across porous there were some words of warning from the right hon. borders in the region and the availability of weapons. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd)—he is We are indeed looking to see what further powers we not in his place, so my pronunciation can pass by—and need to take here in the United Kingdom to be able to the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd). deal with the threat that these people pose. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham People who insist on travelling to fight in Syria and (Mr Redwood) referred to the need to talk more, a point Iraq will be investigated by the police and security echoed by my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of services. We have already taken tough action on rules Wight (Mr Turner). governing the use of the royal prerogative. The Serious A number of Members, including my hon. Friend the Crime Bill, which is in another place, will close the gap Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), spoke in our powers to ensure that any British national who about the importance of an inclusive Government in prepares or trains for terrorism abroad can be prosecuted Iraq and it is a concern shared by the Government. in this country as if they had carried out those activities Other Members, including my hon. Friend the Member in the UK. We are also confronting the poisonous for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth), raised the need to ideology that feeds, supports and sanctions terrorism—a ensure that there are adequate resources for our needs. point made by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley 1013 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 1014

(Mr Donaldson) and referred to by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). As the Prime Backbench Business Minister has said, we are in the midst of a generational struggle against a deadly, extremist ideology, and we Select Committee on Governance of the will do everything we can, as a Government, to ensure House that we have the powers that are necessary to deal with it. 7pm Question put and agreed to. Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) Resolved, (Con): I beg to move, That this House has considered Ukraine, Middle East, North That this House welcomes the Speaker’s announcement on Africa and security. 1 September of a pause in the process of appointment of a new Clerk of the House and Chief Executive, to give time for further Business without Debate consideration; and accordingly determines that: (a) there shall be a select committee, called the House of Commons Governance Committee, to consider the governance DELEGATED LEGISLATION of the House of Commons, including the future allocation of the responsibilities for House services currently exercised by the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With the Clerk of the House and Chief Executive; leave of the House, we shall take motions 3 to 5 together. (b) the Committee report to the House by 12 January 2015; Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing (c) the Committee shall have the powers given to select committees Order No. 118(6)), related to government departments under paragraph 4(a) and 4(b) of Standing Order No. 152; EQUALITY (d) Mr Jack Straw be the Chair of the Committee; That the draft Equality Act 2010 (Equal Pay Audits) Regulations (e) the Committee shall consist of seven other backbench 2014, which were laid before this House on 30 June, be approved. members, to be elected by parties in the proportion of three Conservative, two Labour and one Liberal Democrat, together LOCAL GOVERNMENT with one representative of the other parties represented in the House; the parties shall forward their nominations to the Chair of That the draft Local Audit (Auditor Panel Independence) the Committee of Selection by 14 October and any motion made Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on 3 July, be in the House on behalf of the Committee of Selection by the approved. Chair or another member of the Committee shall be treated as having been made in pursuance of Standing Order No. 121(2) for ARMS AND AMMUNITION the purposes of Standing Order No. 15(1)(c). That the draft Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act It is an honour to open a debate on a motion to 2014 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2014, which was laid which so many distinguished Members have added their before this House on 7 July, be approved.—(Damian Hinds.) names—the co-sponsors include the hon. Member for Question agreed to. North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), the right hon. Members for Derby South (Margaret Beckett) and for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart)—and which has commanded support at all levels throughout the House. The role of the Clerk of the House dates back to at least 1363. Today, the Clerk serves, first, as the House’s adviser on all aspects of procedure, practice and privilege and as the editor of “Erskine May”; secondly, as the chief executive of the House service and chair of the management board; but also, importantly, as accounting officer, as corporate officer, and as the head of the Clerks Department, responsible for some 800 members of staff. The motion is straightforward. It welcomes the announcement by the Speaker of a pause in the current recruitment to the post of Clerk, it establishes a new time-limited Select Committee to consider the governance of the House, it nominates the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) as Chair of that Committee, and it outlines the powers of the Committee, its reporting date and the election of its members. The debate arises because of widespread concern among Members in all parts of the House that the process governing the appointment of the next Clerk of the House was seriously flawed.

John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 1015 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1016 the House the House Jesse Norman: I should be delighted. issues of a pre-appointment hearing and a possible split in roles to be examined and the views of Members to be John McDonnell: I merely ask for clarification. Does solicited in detail. This debate, and the governance the hon. Gentleman see the new Committee as a time- Select Committee and procedure for wider consultation limited exercise, or as a permanent body? proposed in the motion, are the House’s response to that request by the Speaker. Jesse Norman: As the motion makes clear, the Committee The proper governance of this House is a matter of will be time-limited and report in January next year. enormous public importance. Indeed, it is properly There has been some misunderstanding, and much considered a constitutional matter, first, because the heated discussion, of the clerkship. Those are issues to British constitution—at least such as it is for the next which I have no desire to add, but the following facts eight days—relies on the effective functioning of Parliament are not in dispute. First, the chosen candidate, Ms Carol and, secondly, because this Parliament, and especially Mills, an administrator in the Australian Parliament, the Clerk, act as the final word on procedural matters was not qualified for the specifically constitutional and for a host of further Parliaments across the Commonwealth. procedural functions exercised by the Clerk. Secondly— Contrary to popular belief, parliamentary procedure—the rules of the game—is not some pettifogging accretion, Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): Will the hon. or irrelevant decoration, to the business of democratic Gentleman give way? government; it is the essence of democratic government. This country is governed by laws, laws are made in Jesse Norman: I am very pressed for time. I hope that Parliament, and that Parliament is run according to the right hon. Gentleman will not mind if I allow him to rules and procedure; without procedure, there could be intervene later, perhaps at the end of my speech. We are no government. Indeed, even the role of chief executive under tremendous time pressure. has a constitutional dimension, because the capacity of Secondly, Ms Mills was and, indeed, is herself subject Members to hold the Government to account rests in to an inquiry by the Australian Parliament. Thirdly, the part on how well they are enabled to function by the Speaker’s panel of selection was purely advisory, and House service. was smaller than, and assembled on a different basis Because of the importance of this subject, the House from, that used in 2011. Fourthly, the terms of the has regularly sought to assess the quality of its own process of recruitment changed from the original terms governance. Three times in the last 30 years it has invited set out by the House of Commons Commission on outside experts to lead a process of review: Sir Robin 30 April 2014. Fifthly, while acknowledging the Clerk’s Ibbs, Mr Michael Braithwaite and Sir Kevin Tebbit. No executive functions, the advertisement for the post in institution is perfect, of course, and some of their The Sunday Times led with, and specifically emphasised, criticisms have been stringent. Even so, those reviews “constitutional matters” and the Clerk’s role as have identified a fairly clear, if inconsistent, path of “chief adviser to the Speaker, the Leader of the House and other reform and modernisation. members of the Front Bench on matters of procedure and privilege”. The first such review, the Ibbs review of 1990, painted Sixthly, outside headhunters, Saxton Bampfylde, were a pretty damaging picture of administrative incompetence: used for the first time. Seventhly, despite all that, the “Good financial management systems and the associated control final candidate—Ms Mills—was, in effect, recruited for mechanisms did not exist. There was no effective planning, a job that did not then exist as such, that of chief measurement of achievement against requirement, nor assessment executive of this House. Finally, the letter nominating of value for money.” Ms Mills was signed by the Speaker on the advice of the The Braithwaite review in 1999 acknowledged the panel, was sent to 10 Downing street during the recess, constitutional significance of a properly resourced and and, but for the intervention of Parliament, might have effective Parliament. It recognised that been forwarded to Buckingham Palace during the recess. “the Ibbs team found a situation which was profoundly unsatisfactory in terms of responsibilities, structure and operation.” Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): I am delighted It acknowledged that significant progress had been that my hon. Friend has put this motion before the made, but at the same time it made clear that House today. Is he aware that I understand from an “full implementation of Ibbs was slow and in some areas did not answer to me that the panel was completely unaware occur.” that Carol Mills was undergoing investigation—two The Tebbit review in 2007 was rather more encouraging. investigations, actually—by the Australian Senate before It concluded that: it made its decision? Moreover, Saxton Bampfylde wished “The present system is certainly not broken” to inform the panel that that was the case, and the panel and that it was “well regarded overall”. It mentioned was advised not to take evidence from it. “effective management of delivery and services”, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. There adding it was are lots of speakers on the list, including the hon. “highly effective in core scrutiny and legislative functions”, Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant), who I want but it made a crucial exception for the management of to get in early on, so we must have very short interventions. the estate and works. It recommended steps to improve integration, transparency and clarity of management Jesse Norman: I was not aware of that, and I am goals, and to create a stronger finance function and grateful to my hon. Friend for raising it now. greater professional management across the board. The Speaker has made clear his personal support for To those, we may perhaps add one last data point. In a split between the roles of Clerk and chief executive. In the recent debate on the retirement of the last Clerk, a statement to the House last week he called for the Sir Robert Rogers, the House was united not only in 1017 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1018 the House the House acclaiming the merits of Sir Robert himself as Clerk, As the motion makes clear, a key issue to be addressed but in acknowledging the progress the House had made by the Committee is whether the roles of Clerk and in key areas of management and modernisation. Those chief executive should be split. The Ibbs, Braithwaite include implementing a substantial savings programme and Tebbit reports all came down against a split, but it without loss of service, the introduction of new IT and is absolutely right that the issues here should be re-examined a drive towards paperless working, far greater outreach by the Committee in the light of changing needs and and significant improvement on issues of diversity and circumstances. I suggest that that question rests in turn equality, as well as a new apprenticeships programme. on the answers to several further questions. If the roles The Chair of the Finance and Services Committee, are to be split, how exactly would the split work? What the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and functions would fall on either side of the divide, and Easter Ross (John Thurso), aptly summarised the situation why? Presumably, in any scenario, the Clerk would by recognising continue to be responsible for the Clerk’s Department of 800 people, or just under half the total employed. “a transformation in the management of the House Service, which has moved from what could be described as an era of gifted Furthermore, would the Clerk and the chief executive amateurism to one of thoroughly competent professionalism.”— be coequal? That would require careful thought, as [Official Report, 16 July 2014; Vol. 584, c. 901.] there are cases in business where such an arrangement has succeeded, and cases where it has failed. If they Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ were not equal, who should report to whom? Would the Co-op): I recently had the privilege of attending an Clerk, authorised and protected by letters patent, report international conference on modernising parliaments. to the chief executive, or would the chief executive Although we have made progress in this country, we are report to the Clerk—in which case what, apart from behind many other countries. Does the hon. Gentleman the job title, would have changed? What would be the agree that we need to keep moving forward and to implications for relations between the Houses? What ensure that whoever is appointed is the right person legislation would be required if the Clerk were no to drive forward change? longer to be corporate officer? Finally, what would the cost be of such a split, in both salary and other costs? Jesse Norman: I regret that I was not at that conference, Let me conclude with two reflections. The first concerns and I am unfamiliar with the comparisons that might the present nomination. The letter nominating Ms Mills be made, but I absolutely agree that continued progress as Clerk was signed by the Speaker, on advice. in modernisation and management is important. Constitutionally, he and he alone has the capacity to withdraw that letter. I would request that he now do so. The second concerns the process of selection. The Tebbit Mr Frank Field: Surely we do not want modernisation review in 2007 recommended that the clerkship be subject for modernisation’s sake. We want it so that we can to the selection board process used to select permanent carry out our major functions more effectively. They are secretaries, but that approach was not adopted. Whatever to hold those on the Treasury Bench to account and to its merits, I would ask that, perhaps after the report of conduct an intelligent five-yearly election campaign. the Committee, the House of Commons Commission reconsider, agree and publish new proposals for a fully Jesse Norman: I think the right hon. Gentleman open, competitive and transparent selection process for knows that, as a strict Burkeian, I—along with many the clerkship. Members of the House—believe in intelligent reform. Reform of the governance of this House is, like I therefore broadly share the perspective that he offers. marriage in the words of the prayer book, I believe that we can draw a number of conclusions “not by any to be enterprised, nor taken in hand, unadvisedly, from this matter. First, it is facile and mistaken to argue lightly, or wantonly...but reverently, discreetly, advisedly, soberly”. that the House is poorly managed today simply because This motion is designed to enable sober reform, and it was poorly managed in the 1980s and 1990s. Rather, I commend it to the House. there has been steady if somewhat inconsistent progress against a background of massive growth in demand Several hon. Members rose— for House services, significant change in information technology, and rising standards and expectations both Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I must from Members and from the general public. It would be say that we now have a four-minute limit. a tragedy if that process of improvement and modernisation were to be set back by an obviously flawed appointment to the present clerkship. 7.14 pm These reviews have come at eight to nine-year intervals, Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab): With no written and the proposed governance Committee would report constitution, the governance of this House has itself next year, eight years after the Tebbit review. This considerable constitutional significance, and this is a debate therefore falls at a highly opportune time, and debate on governance; it is not one for or against doubly so because circumstances and the needs of Members modernisation, still less is it, as some seem to have and of the general public, as well as politics and Parliament suggested, a debate to undermine our Speaker, an enterprise itself, have continued to evolve—and might, I fear, in which I would have no part. No proposal merely by evolve further next week. A specific challenge is presented being labelled “modernisation” will thereby gain my by the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster. support, but I neither fear nor resist change in this This mammoth project might, it seems, be managed by House. As some hon. Members will recall, in the 1990s, a specific delivery authority that is accountable to this as Leader of the House, I chaired the all-party House and the other place. Modernisation Committee. Minor, irritating rules were 1019 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1020 the House the House [Margaret Beckett] chief executive. Both Clerks and non-Clerks applied and were interviewed. Robert Rogers, of course, was swept aside. We allowed photographs to be taken in appointed and proved a successful occupant of the Members’ offices, and journalists to take tape recorders post. We may have wished, with good reason, that he into the Press Gallery and TV cameras into Central would have continued on in post and not retired, but Lobby. More importantly, we made substantial changes that was not to be. in the handling of business. Recess dates had been a As my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and guessing game, announced as late as possible, often South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) said, the combined only four to five weeks before even the summer recess. post of Clerk and chief executive developed in response We realised that reasonable confidence about delivering to the Ibbs report of November 1990, which found the legislative programme would be a requirement for profound failings then. When the Braithwaite report any Government, and a properly scheduled timetable looked again in 1999, it reported substantial improvements for examining Bills had long been recommended by the and said that the leadership of the Clerk of the House, Procedure Committee. The introduction of programme acting as chief executive, had been instrumental in that motions paved the way for published sitting dates and a progress. Paragraph 4.63 summarised the situation well: proper parliamentary calendar. More minor and technical “The Clerk is armed with most of the skills and attributes matters, then discussed and decided after the main needed for the role…He has the authority of his office; demonstrable business—at midnight if we were lucky and into the leadership at a high level; deep knowledge of the political context small hours if we were not—were deferred for decision and process, and all the skills required to operate effectively in this until Wednesday lunchtime, though with provision for environment; and a profound understanding of the business of wider scrutiny if need be. supporting the House and its work.” All those changes were hugely controversial and hotly The Tebbit review in 2007 looked again at whether an resisted, but the ugly truth is that, for example, there outsider should run the House service and recommended was always a programmed timetable for every Bill. It that the Clerk should continue to perform the dual role was just that it was secret, known only to the Government’s of Clerk and chief executive. I encourage hon. Members business managers and not always to all of them. Sittings to read paragraphs 86 to 88 of the Tebbit review. in Westminster Hall massively increased the time for Why did I support the need for a review at the Back-Bench debates and discussion of Select Committee Commission in April? First, while the restoration and reports, but were also fiercely resisted by many, such as renewal project from 2020 onwards must have discrete our current Speaker, who were rightly concerned to project governance, it would certainly benefit from having preserve the supremacy of this Chamber. one client, not two. A chief executive acting for both My simple point is that all these reforms, major or Houses of Parliament would bring clarity and coherence minor, were proposed to the House in a report from the in the years during which the R and R project is under Modernisation Committee, debated in the House and way. Such a review would need to be undertaken together decided by a vote in the House as a whole. Some things, with the House of Lords. That is not in our gift this such as Westminster Hall, were introduced as an experiment evening, but we can seek for that to happen. with a sunset clause. Whether the Clerk to the House should also act as its chief executive has been part of Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): On a small such discussions on many occasions over the years, and technical matter, am I not right in thinking that the I am certainly open to such an idea. I have a degree of director-general for resources is already responsible for reservation. I say with due deference to the Clerk that in the Commons end and the Lords end? my experience of five years as Leader of the House or shadow Leader of the House, I found that getting the Clerks to see the point of view of Members can be an Mr Lansley: Yes, there is joint working in some uphill struggle. An administrator less familiar with the respects. That is one area. Information technology and workings and concerns of the House might be even security are others. But generally there is not joint worse, but I have no quarrel at all with a reassessment working in relation to the Parliament and the estate as a of the full implications of such a change. I say a full whole. Under those circumstances, one would have to reassessment because some of the wider implications of forgo the possibility of the Clerk also being chief executive such a decision are new, at least to me. I believe the as this House and the House of Lords would have to motion offers a constructive way forward and is really retain a separate Clerk of the House and Clerk of the worthy of support. Parliaments. There would of course be attendant risks in separating out those functions, but a potential efficiency gain of a significant kind overall. 7.18 pm I support the motion and look forward to the Select Mr Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): Committee considering it. None the less, I urge the When I was a member of the House of Commons Select Committee to take evidence and to consider that Commission, we agreed in April that there should be a wider potential context within which it could work. review of governance, in order to determine in the However, the Select Committee cannot resolve the current future whether the post of Clerk of the House should impasse in the appointment process, which is “paused”. continue to be combined with that of chief executive. I saw the case for a pause—I often do—but it cannot The Commission also concluded that it was neither now be continued. The Commission has the authority legal nor practical to make a change at that time. We to cancel the current appointment process. It should do therefore agreed to advertise the post of Clerk and chief so now. It is no criticism of Carol Mills, who interviewed executive on the same basis as happened in 2011. I well, to say that her knowledge of the constitutional remind the House that in this Parliament, in 2011, an and procedural issues, as required of the Clerk of the open competition took place for the post of Clerk and House, would not suffice. I took that view, but was not 1021 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1022 the House the House supported by the majority of the selection panel. It is Ms Eagle: My memory is that we agreed it. It is particularly regrettable that Mr Speaker sought expressly important that I do not go into too much detail on the to water down the 2011 requirement in the job description Floor of the House, and essentially in public, about that the Clerk should have what happened in a process that resulted in agreement. “detailed knowledge of the procedures and practices of the As I have said, I am happy that the process was open House.” and fair, and that it came to a conclusion by consensus. Mr Speaker sought to replace “detailed knowledge” with “awareness”. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): On the point about a true and open process, does the hon. Lady believe By way of compromise, the word “detailed” was left that, with the information that has come to light out. But the selection panel was not therefore asked to subsequently, the process cannot be seen to have been subject candidates to the same test as in 2011. The an open and visible one? process for appointment was, therefore, ill-founded, and any internal candidate with the procedural and practical Ms Eagle: The members of the commission spent 20 knowledge but less opportunity to be a chief executive hours of their lives conducting a process along the lines of a large organisation was at a disadvantage. of all other processes that go on outside the House for I propose that the current appointment process be appointing senior posts. We cannot be criticised for not scrapped; that an internal temporary appointment to knowing something that came to light subsequently, the post of Clerk of the House should be made; and whether it is relevant or not. that an internal appointment to the post of chief operating officer could be made. That was proposed to the selection Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will the hon. Lady panel, but not supported. It is now the right way forward. give way?

7.23 pm Ms Eagle: I am happy to give way, but I do not want to take too much of the House’s time talking about Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): I rise to support things that are not relevant to the motion. the motion in the name of the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) and proposed Charlie Elphicke: I want to move on to governance for debate this evening by the Backbench Business rather than personalities. The hon. Lady says the decision Committee. was arrived at by consensus, and yet it has caused After concerns from Members about the recruitment massive disunity in the House. What does that say of a new Clerk and chief executive, this motion allows about the contact and in-touchness of those involved in us to move forward swiftly in pursuit of a solution that the process with the wider House of Commons, and can unite the House. what does it say about House of Commons governance Before I address the content of the motion in detail, I and accountability? would first like to refer briefly to the events that have led us here. I was one of six members of the panel that Ms Eagle: The decision has caused worries for some reached a consensus agreement and suggested a name people, but I do not think it has caused the amount of to the Prime Minister for recommendation to Her Majesty controversy the hon. Gentleman suggests. There are the Queen. I think it would be invidious to say the least people on both sides of the argument. He should not if I were to go into details of what happened during that imagine that, when the panel made the decision, we process. Suffice it to say that we spent more than were being out of touch. We were making an honest 20 hours interviewing a wide range of candidates, judging judgment after being presented with candidates in an them against a clear job description, through a fair and open and transparent way. He might not agree with the robust process. This was the first time that recruitment decision, but the process was open and transparent, and of the Clerk has been done through a completely open in line with ordinary procedure for the appointment of process of the kind we would expect for a senior such posts anywhere but the House. appointment in any other profession. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will Meg Hillier: I welcome the approach of having an my hon. Friend accept congratulations from many hon. open process. Does my hon. Friend regret that the Members on the sterling work she and the group did in House has used its privilege to name candidates in conducting the process? As she has said, it took more the recruitment process in the way it has? than 20 hours. She will be aware that some in the House—mainly Government Members—have a secret Ms Eagle: We are not making it easy for any future agenda, which is usually, “Let’s have a go at the Speaker.” outside candidate to apply for a job in this place— We know what has been going on and we know where it candidates have been traduced across the airwaves when comes from. they cannot reply. Hon. Members on both sides of the House should think carefully about that. Ms Eagle: I thank my hon. Friend for his comment. Many intertwining things have brought us to this point. Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I am I would not like to traduce the motivations of anybody trying to understand the precise process, particularly in who contributes to the debate, but the motivations of the light of what the former Leader of the House, the those who were on the commission should not be right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), traduced either. It is important that we accept that. has just said. Did the panel agree before the interview I should like to get back to the terms of the motion. process the job description it judged against, or was that As I said, the process was in line with the kind of presented as a fait accompli? process that one would expect for any other senior 1023 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1024 the House the House [Ms Angela Eagle] in their important interpretation of “Erskine May” and our procedures. In 2007, as the former Leader of the appointment outside this place. In the recent past, the House, the right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire appointment was at the discretion of the Speaker, who (Mr Lansley), said, the Tebbit report considered and was handed two names by the retiring Clerk. Even if dismissed the idea of the separation of the role of Clerk some Members objected to the result of the process, I and chief executive. However, the report said that Clerks think it is welcome that the tradition of the Speaker hoping to be appointed chief executive should in future getting to choose between two names handed to him by have “senior management experience” and that should the predecessor Clerk has been left behind and that the mean House is trying finally to bring its recruitment processes “having spent a period outside the Clerk’s Department and into the 21st century. preferably beyond the confines of Westminster”. Although I do not want to comment any further on the proceedings of the panel, I understand the concern Andrew Bridgen: Will the hon. Lady give way on that of some Members at the outcome and I welcome today’s point? motion. The worries have centred around the fact that despite being eminently qualified as a chief executive, Ms Eagle: No. the successful candidate is not an expert on parliamentary That has not happened, but the challenges facing the procedure. However, the fact is that an expert on holder of the Clerk and chief executive’s job have parliamentary procedure who has spent their entire undoubtedly multiplied. It now makes sense, therefore, working life in our excellent Clerk’s department is unlikely to revisit the original consideration of the report and to be able to demonstrate the requirements needed to be whether we should split the role, which is why I welcome an outstanding chief executive. That is why the Hansard the motion before us this evening and urge the House to Society, through its Puttnam commission in 2005, advocated support it. splitting the Clerk and chief executive roles and why it has advocated governance reforms since. 7.33 pm It is clear that we have a tension at the heart of the role of Clerk and chief executive and considering some The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom of the imminent changes facing the House Administration, Brake): I am pleased to participate in this debate. My I believe that it is evident that that tension is likely to get right hon. Friend the Leader of the House had intended worse and to do so quite quickly. The restoration and to speak as Leader of the House and, in the absence of renewal project could mean Members having to decant my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland this building for an entire Parliament or longer. However and Easter Ross (John Thurso), on behalf of the it is accomplished, it will be complex and extremely Commission, but he has asked me to speak on his demanding, exposing us to huge practical challenges behalf and on behalf of the Commission. and to great reputational risk. I might add that I firmly The Commission met on Monday to discuss, among believe that it might also be a great opportunity to take other matters, the recruitment process for the Clerk of a new look at how Parliament operates and communicates the House. As Mr Speaker has clearly indicated, it is with the people it is here to serve. vital that Members have the opportunity to express A programme of digital transformation has already their views on this important issue. The Commission been embarked on, with the twin aims of radically therefore decided not take decisions relating to the improving Parliament’s ability to work and communicate recruitment of the Clerk or the governance of the and achieving a step change in our efficiency. There is House until it had the opportunity to hear the views of the Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy, which Members, both in this debate and through the many is exploring the potential offered by digital communications expressions of opinion that Mr Speaker has received. to enhance our interaction with our constituents. It As Members may know, the Commission recognises often seems to me that our IT equipment actively stands the need for a review of the governance of the House in the way of our doing our jobs effectively when it and, indeed, took a decision in April to begin such a should be facilitating greater communication in a secure review later this year. The views of Members on this and robust way. House’s governance are clearly of paramount importance. There is the challenge of the looming general election It is therefore entirely proper for a Select Committee to —we all have our own challenges coming up with that. undertake this work. Assuming that the House agrees to its establishment today, I am sure that the Commission will be happy to provide any information and practical Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): support that the Committee may require. The Commission Will the hon. Lady give way? will be mindful of its overarching responsibility to ensure the proper governance of the House, and equally Ms Eagle: No. aware that the outcome of the process needs to be one The general election will mean managing the end of in which the House can have confidence. the first ever fixed-term Parliament and the first coalition I now want to say a few words from a Government since the second world war against the backdrop of the perspective. I am naturally keen to help the House very volatile times in which we are living. More than resolve this matter—and it is squarely a House matter 2,000 staff require management and Parliament handles rather than one for Government—so I welcome the a budget of more than £200 million. I believe that the initiative shown by the hon. Member for Hereford and smooth operation of change management in these vital South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) and others who areas is just as important in the delivery of parliamentary have tabled the motion that we are considering this services as the crucial advice we receive from our Clerks evening. 1025 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1026 the House the House Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): As usual, Tom Brake: I thank my right hon. Friend for his the Deputy Leader of the House is making a powerful intervention. I can certainly assure him that the Commission speech. On his point about the setting up of the Select will be following tonight’s debate very carefully and Committee being a House matter, it has always been my will, I am sure, want to act on it and on what he has understanding that members of the Executive do not suggested. vote on the creation of memberships of Select Committees. I have enjoyed hearing the views that Members have Has that now changed? expressed so far, and I look forward to hearing the views of other Members in this debate and elsewhere. Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, and I will respond to it later. 7.39 pm It is in all our interests—Government, Opposition, Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Back Benchers and the House service as a whole—that Hillsborough) (Lab): First, I think we owe a duty of this matter is resolved in a timely manner with due care to Carol Mills. It is not her fault that she has been consideration. I do not seek in any way to pre-empt the caught up in this controversy. We also owe a duty of work of the Committee, but there are certain principles respect to Mr Speaker and the office of Speaker. Whispering that it will wish to bear in mind and issues that it will campaigns and media briefings of the types we have wish to to address. Let me flag up four. First, as seen do no service to the House or its Members. Members, we expect to have access to the highest quality of advice. We rely heavily on the expert advice of the I commend the speeches made by the shadow Leader Clerk on matters of procedure and constitutional propriety. of the House, my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey It goes without saying that the effective functioning of (Ms Eagle), and by my right hon. Friend the Member the House relies on the confidence of Members in its for Derby South (Margaret Beckett). My right hon. senior management and especially in the Clerk of the Friend spelled out the limited changes that have been House as its principal procedural adviser. achieved against the odds over the past 20 years and, by doing so, illustrated the real challenge in bringing about Secondly, on a related point, it is vital that the Clerk radical change, improvement and simple modernisation. is, and is seen to be, totally independent and not in any What she described were very simple, common-sense way dependent on the support of political parties changes that were achieved against the odds. It is time or others. Advice must be dispensed without fear or that this House got itself well into the 21st century. favour. That is why the Clerk is appointed by the sovereign by letters patent and is not an employee of I do not often bow to parliamentarians or politicians the Commission. from either side of the House, but on procedural matters I would do so, because I am not an expert. I am Thirdly, it is important that the House has a decision- absolutely sure, however, that the procedures and making structure that is fit for the substantial challenges constitution serve the process of democracy, rather that we face, and is transparent. Members and the than the other way around. We are here to serve our public must know who is accountable for decisions public and to bring about radical change—to be change made. makers—and we can only do that if the processes, Finally, any management structure must be cost-effective. procedures and efficiency of the House allow us to do Just as the Government have cut the cost of politics, the so. We need screens to work and for computers not to House has delivered substantial savings to the taxpayer go down all the time and—the public might not like since the last election, meeting its 17% savings target. this—for restaurants to actually be open when we are Any new arrangements should support the efficient and here: things we would expect in any business. Over the cost-effective delivery of services to Members and to past 27 years I have always been amazed at how radicals the public. come into this House and are incorporated and how business people come into this House but do not seem If the motion is agreed to, I hope that the Select to bring their business experience to bear on the processes Committee will be able to begin its work rapidly and we are addressing. conclude by the deadline. The Government will seek to ensure that the House has an opportunity to debate the I commend my right hon. Friend the Member for Committee’s conclusions at an early opportunity, so Blackburn (Mr Straw), who has enormous experience that resulting appointments can be made as rapidly as over many years of advising, serving and leading in possible. government. I wish him well, because at the end of his remarkable career the outcome of this Select Committee In response to the hon. Member for Wellingborough will determine how the process will work and how the (Mr Bone), the election of Members to the Committee House will function for years to come, and whether it is a matter for the parties. will contribute to a reform of our democracy at a time of incredible change, when the United Kingdom faces Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): My right critical issues constitutionally and for the future of our hon. Friend has not referred to the interim arrangements nation. If this House cannot modernise itself and get that are being put in place. I want an assurance that it is up to speed with what would be taken for granted difficult for him to give, because he is not a member of elsewhere, we are doomed. the Commission, that the Commission will invest the I have often thought that I had a desk at the Clerk Assistant with sufficient authority to do all the Natural History museum. Learning from evolution is things that are required of the Clerk, of the kind that important, because this House is built on years of my right hon. Friend has described, and to delegate experience and it would not be appropriate to sweep such of his functions as make it possible to carry out it aside. We need a highly qualified and experienced those roles. chief Clerk of this House who is able to advise Members 1027 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1028 the House the House [Mr David Blunkett] The remit of the new Committee is not about going back over the past, but looking to the future. It is about and the Government. We need to ensure that we get that throwing light on the dim recesses of how this place right. It is perfectly feasible for that to happen through operates. I say to hon. Members in all parts of the the expertise built up over years in this House—that is House that change is coming to this place whether we the expression that has been used—while at the same like it or not and—perhaps speaking to Government time having a chief executive who will lead us through Members—if we want things to remain the same, things the difficult task of changing the environment not are going to have to change, but this is not about only physically but democratically. We can get this throwing babies out with the bathwater. If there is to be right, but it deserves more than simple whispering behind a chief executive, the role must be properly thought hands—it deserves real reform and modernisation for about, properly defined and properly embedded within the future. the structures and accountability of the House, and within what the House is for, which is the scrutiny of 7.43 pm legislation and the holding to account of the Executive. Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): We want more involvement for Members, more openness I am the Chairman of the Public Administration Committee and accountability, and more listening and working and as I listened to the right hon. Member for Sheffield, together, plus less tearing chunks out of each other over Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), I thought this particular subject, if you please, because that does about how this debate is a microcosm of the debate that the House nothing but harm. I think that the proposed is going on in Whitehall about how to get Whitehall Committee is the solution. machinery to operate in a much more open, accountable and transparent way. I use the word “accountable” 7.47 pm because I think a lot of this debate has arisen because there is a sense, particularly among younger and, dare I Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): I very much echo the say it, more impatient Members—like myself, of course— sentiments just expressed by the hon. Member for Harwich that there is an opacity, a sort of Victorian mystery and North Essex (Mr Jenkin). about the way in which this place works. Change and modernisation in the House has always This whole episode has been painful for the House of been problematic. I recall that as Leader of the House Commons. I commend those on both sides of the of Commons between 2003 and 2005, I tried to persuade House who have spoken, but particularly the shadow the House to take its security seriously. The director Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Wallasey general of MI5 and the police wanted a professional to (Ms Eagle), who made a dignified and conciliatory be in charge of security, which was a nightmare, frankly. speech. We need to avoid dwelling on what has gone There was strong resistance to change—of the kind that wrong; we can learn from that, but we need to move we are now seeing in relation to splitting the roles of forward. Clerk and chief executive—until events conspired to overtake those who were blocking change. Hon. Members I spent much of my summer worrying that this issue may remember the Greenpeace activists scaling Big would divide the House and, because of the controversy, Ben, the flour bomb at Prime Minister’s questions and, almost poison the office of the Speaker. The purpose of of course, the huntsmen invading the Chamber itself. my asking for the motion to be drafted in the manner Only then did we move to appoint a full-time professional that it has been drafted, and of suggesting that the right head of security, which nobody in their right mind hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) chair the would now question. Committee, and of gingerly tip-toeing around the various— increasingly angry—people on all sides of the debate I believe that in future years nobody will question the was to try and find a method of resolving the issue in a separation of the functions of the Clerk and the chief manner that will not result in a terrible and divisive row executive, with two separate appointments. It will seem about a particular individual. I join the right hon. like the common sense that I believe it is now. At the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough in moment, we have a part-time Clerk and a part-time sympathising with the individual who has been exposed chief executive, although I mean no disrespect at all to in this episode. the holders of the post, with whom I have worked closely and whom I admire. My role as Chairman of the Public Administration Committee was to suggest that the ultimate modernisation The Clerk’s onerous parliamentary duties occupy the of the process of appointment of the Clerk would be majority of the working day, and involve managing all to make it subject to a pre-appointment hearing. the immensely complex procedural issues that surround Constitutionally, that matter rests within my Committee’s the legislative and other functions of the House. In my remit. We will keep that on the table for whichever view, those duties can be carried out only with the candidate emerges as the final candidate, because whoever experience and specialist knowledge of a Clerk, such as it is should be subject to a pre-appointment hearing. Sir Robert Rogers, and his able deputies. However, The right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge), everybody who, like me, has had the privilege to be the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, does the involved on the inside of the Commons knows full well same for the appointment of the Comptroller and Auditor that the chief executive duties inevitably have to fit General, who is an Officer of the House. My Committee around and take second priority to the primary procedural does the same for the Parliamentary and Health Service duty. That is the truth of the matter. Ombudsman, who is also an Officer of the House. The As the chief executive, the Clerk now has a splendid idea that Officers of the House should not be subject to building under his charge—a UNESCO world heritage be pre-appointment hearings seems to me anachronistic site that attracts well over 1 million visitors each year and old-fashioned. from all over the world—and oversees more than 1,750 staff, 1029 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1030 the House the House which is equivalent to a very large business, and has a I am therefore drawn to the view, which some are budget of over £200 million. In addition, almost the same expressing, that we need to examine quickly but thoroughly number of staff work for Members, bringing the total the idea that there are two functions and that there need number of people on the precincts for whom the Clerk to be two different roles. There are many fine things is responsible in his role as CEO to more than 3,500. about this House, but I think that we could be better at As the corporate officer of the House of Commons, some of the things that come under the chief executive’s the Clerk is required to enter into contracts on behalf of remit. We have many able, hard-working and talented the House and to acquire and manage land and property. staff and I do not wish to imply any criticism of them. As the accounting officer, he has responsibilities for However, a good chief executive would look at the way public finance, resource accounting and internal control, in which we handle guests. Are we happy with the and he attends meetings of the House’s audit committees. queues and the way in which security is handled? We He is responsible for good corporate governance, meeting wish to be safe, but we wish to welcome people. They social and environmental regulations, and retaining and are our guests or our constituents. I do not think that motivating top-quality employees. He must have an we always get it right. We need to ensure that our awareness of complex employment law, fair remuneration catering provides what people want in a timely and and contracts. He must also introduce proper systems sensible way. There might be opportunities to improve and controls for effective risk management. that. We certainly need to look again at technology and Those are onerous duties in today’s litigious, closely the how we communicate with those who communicate regulated employment and administrative environment. about us and with the wider world. I do not think that the skill set required to undertake Those are all time-consuming tasks and I am not sure those tasks in the modern age is necessarily compatible that they can be carried out by a constitutional expert with the skill set required to be Clerk of the House. The living through a constitutional crisis, who needs to be question of which role would be superior is a red up to speed with everything that happens in this Chamber herring. Both would be answerable to the Speaker, who and with the long history of our traditions, our law is the pre-eminent figure. codes and our constitution, written and unwritten as it In summary, my experience as Leader of the House is. Somebody needs to provide that guidance. has convinced me that the two posts should be separated. The extra costs involved could perhaps be offset by Mr Jenkin: My right hon. Friend’s description of the questioning the continued employment of the director importance of the role of Clerk of the House is absolutely general of facilities. Finally, why should the Clerk have right. I heard the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) a superior salary to the Speaker or the Prime Minister? say that he did not understand why the Clerk was paid on a different scale from the Speaker and a higher 7.51 pm amount. The Clerk is paid on the same scale as a High Court judge, because he is the arbiter of the law of Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): This is a Parliament across the entire Commonwealth. The crucial decision and we need to make it in a timely and independence of his remuneration is part of his sensible way. independence and has to be preserved. We stand on the threshold of momentous constitutional events. We might even lose a country from our United Mr Redwood: I quite agree. It is a crucial role for a Kingdom, or we might go into a period of fundamental very senior lawyer and has to be rewarded accordingly, constitutional change with a massive devolution of and at a level that means that they do not have money powers. We will need good professional advice and worries, because they need to spend all their time leadership to complement the crucial work of the concentrating on the job. I am quite sure that the democratically elected politicians. Clerk’s role is senior to and more crucial than that of The Speaker is the servant of the House. Mr Speaker the chief executive, but I also believe that we need to do has shown, by the way he has said that there has to be a our guests and ourselves a favour by having the best pause and a reconsideration, that he knows that he is possible management. We need someone to come in the House’s servant. In turn, the House has to be fair to and look again at our standards, our quality, the choice Mr Speaker. It is our duty tonight to set in process a that we offer and the way in which we handle guests, way of resolving this problem in the best interests of technology, information and research, and our messages. everyone and in a good spirit, knowing that Mr Speaker That is the spirit in which we should enter the debate. also wishes the best for our House of Commons and We should get behind our Speaker and give him the will be guided by the House. It is our duty to come up right instructions, and then we will have a better answer. with competent and sensible guidance for him. He undertook a process with a series of senior Members and an outside adviser in good faith and they came to a 7.55 pm judgment. Apparently, that judgment does not suit the Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I House. That is the House’s privilege, but we now need support the setting up of the Committee, to establish a to find a better way of resolving the matter. proper, fair and open recruitment process for the next This situation has consequences not just because we Clerk of the House. I welcome Mr Speaker’s announcement need good guidance, and especially so at this time, but of a modest pause in the process to allow the House to because if we want the best talent from around the review the role, report to the Commission and reach a world to apply for jobs in this place, we need to show decision, so that we can start the recruitment process that we are professional in handling such matters and again from scratch. There are sound interim measures that there is no danger of an unsuccessful candidate in place, which will last up to the general election, and it having their name revealed or trashed in the process. is important that they are not changed until the Committee That is completely unacceptable. has reported and the House has voted. 1031 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1032 the House the House [Natascha Engel] because they have no one to benchmark him against. Anybody who was in the previous Parliament should Originally, I came to this issue from a trade union know better. Compared with this Speaker, the previous perspective. I was concerned by the fact that the job that one was an absolute disgrace. In my opinion we do not was advertised was for a procedural adviser and a chief know how lucky we are to have the current Speaker, executive, but that the chosen candidate was qualified despite any faults that he may have, and anyone who only for part of the role—the administrative part. Had uses this issue as an excuse to go after him does not the advert been for a chief operating officer or a facilities know what they are talking about. manager, who knows how many hundreds of people As for the actual role, until this evening I had been from inside the House, from the civil service and from rather disappointed by the lack of noise, so to speak, around the country might have applied? They did not, from people on the panel to claim credit for the decision because they knew that they were not qualified as they took. The responsibility seemed to be left to the parliamentary procedural and constitutional advisers. I Speaker, and nobody else on the panel appeared willing hope therefore that the Committee will work closely to put their head above the parapet and say that it was with our in-house trade union colleagues to make sure also their decision. They appeared quite happy to allow that we get this right. all the custard pies to be thrown at the Speaker, rather This is not about being against modernisation or than taking some of the hits themselves. change; it is about introducing change in a fair way that As others have said, I think the role should be divided, has the support and agreement of everyone who is and I very much agree with the hon. Member for affected by it, which is everybody who works in this Wallasey (Ms Eagle) who said that two very different place. As Chair of the Backbench Business Committee, skill sets are required for the two parts of the role. It will I have relied heavily on Clerks’ procedural knowledge, always be likely that someone who has the skill set to be expertise and institutional memory. What Clerks do a good Clerk may not necessarily have the skill set to be and how they do it may seem dry and old-fashioned, a good chief executive, and vice versa. That seems to me but it is important in ensuring that we all work to an perfectly obvious. That does not mean that some people agreed set of rules. cannot do the joint roles well. We were very lucky to I am a feminist, and I would like nothing more than have in Sir Robert Rogers someone who had the charisma to see a woman take on one of the most senior positions and ability to combine those roles particularly well. in this country, but if the job is given to someone who is However, that should not change the fact that on the not qualified for it, it will strengthen the hand of people whole, more often than not we will not find somebody who think that women cannot succeed. They will say, with that combined skill set, which is why I think the “Yousee? They’re not up to it.” It will give the equalities role should be changed. I suspect that the panel and the agenda a bad name. Speaker made the mistake of picking the person they I wish the Committee every success and look forward thought would make the best chief executive, and that if to hearing all its recommendations. they had chosen the person who they thought would make the best Clerk, we would not be in this situation 7.58 pm today. The mood of the House is that the Clerk’s role is Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I support the motion, more important than that of the chief executive, and and I support the right hon. Member for Blackburn that should be the primary point. (Mr Straw) being the Chairman of the Committee—and not just because he rather surprisingly said very nice Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): I intervene things about me in his excellent book. only because I had to do a lot of co-operating with the I am not really known for being an establishment previous Clerk, Sir Robert Rogers, in my capacity as man, and I signed the motion of no confidence in the Attorney-General, and I assure the House that the legal previous Speaker, so I am not afraid to put my head knowledge and skills that are required of the Clerk of above the parapet when the need arises. I did not vote the House fully justify the salary. It is an immensely for the current Speaker, either. Usually in elections in complex task, and the House must understand that. At which there is a secret ballot, the custom is to go around the end of the day, it is not dry; it is what makes this telling all the candidates that we will vote for them, and place work or cease to function completely. then choose one to actually vote for. Before the election of the current Speaker, I decided to go and see him and Philip Davies: I agree with my right hon. and learned sat down with him for an hour to tell him all the reasons Friend, and given how expert the legal knowledge needs why I was not going to vote for him. to be, it seems that he was putting in a bid to do the job I certainly do not agree with everything that Mr Speaker himself, with his expert legal knowledge. does, and I guess I do not particularly agree with the I will conclude where I started. I congratulate my decision on this particular appointment or some of the hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South process around it, which was set out very well by my Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on securing the debate. I right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire think that the way forward in the motion is correct, and (Mr Lansley). However, for some of my colleagues to there is no one better than the right hon. Member for use this issue as a Trojan horse to pursue a personal Blackburn to lead the Committee. I had the privilege of vendetta against the Speaker carries the danger of making serving on the Modernisation Committee under his them look absolutely ridiculous. I urge them to end that chairmanship during the last Parliament—I think I was custom now, because it is not getting us very far. only put on that Committee, along with Sir Nicholas Those who were elected only in 2010 may be forgiven Winterton, because I hated any modernisation. The for thinking that the current Speaker is not particularly right hon. Gentleman is the right man to Chair this to their taste—perhaps they have some gripe with him— Committee, and I hope it comes to the conclusion that 1033 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1034 the House the House the role should be divided. I hope that my colleagues about, and experienced in, procedure. However, because will stop using this issue as a Trojan horse to attack a we were mindful of the importance of both roles, we Speaker who we may not always agree with, but who on held two rounds of interviews. It proved impossible to the whole is doing a very good job. find a single individual capable of fulfilling both roles, but several of the members of the panel thought that 8.3 pm Carol Mills was the only appointable candidate. Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab): I have deliberately kept my counsel over the past few weeks as a member of Mr Lansley: I am sorry but that was not the view we the panel, because I thought that was the proper and took. We found more than one candidate appointable, right thing to do. Although I support the motion and but the panel took a judgment about which candidate pre-appointment hearings, the way we have got to tonight’s should be recommended. I am afraid it is not correct to debate shows the House and all of its Members in a say that other candidates were not appointable. very poor light. The often ill-informed and critical comments made by some Members who simply do not Margaret Hodge: We will have to disagree. I think a know how the process was conducted have been mistaken different view was expressed at the second round of and misguided. The personal attacks on Mr Speaker interviews from that at the first. have been unwarranted and plain wrong. As somebody However, we were mindful of the fact that advice on who believes fundamentally in the importance of procedural matters was vital and that Carol Mills would modernising Westminster as part of our endeavour to take time to develop her knowledge and skills. That was restore confidence in politics, I think Mr Speaker has precisely the reason we proposed that Mr Natzler’s role made an immense contribution in his work to making should be retitled to provide greater status and that his us more open, more relevant and more interesting. salary should be increased to reflect that status. The The task of the appointment committee was not successful candidate excelled at interview, and the fact simply to appoint a Clerk of the House; the post was that she has not walked away despite totally unwarranted advertised for both Clerk and chief executive of the personal attacks on her integrity and record confirms in House of Commons. The post holder fulfils two functions. my mind that she has the toughness required to bring That is enshrined in the law, as we have heard, and was the House into the 21st century. recently confirmed by Sir Kevin Tebbit. The Clerks I hope that the motion before the House will be carried, themselves have resisted any change, and the Government but the way we have got here has been unparliamentary too have resisted change in the past. I tell the House and shameful. that the entire appointment process was extremely thorough, totally professional and very open. Criticisms of the process are entirely unfounded. 8.9 pm Meg Hillier: Does my right hon. Friend not agree Sir George Young (North West Hampshire) (Con): I that if Members believe that this place is a world-class am conscious that I am the fourth former Leader of the institution, we should seek to advertise internationally House to speak, with possibly one more still to come. I for people to run it? fundamentally disagree with what the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) said about the role of the Clerk of Margaret Hodge: As a member of a committee that the House. promoted an international candidate, of course I agree It is worth reminding the House of what happened with that. when the other place decided to modernise an historic We were very mindful of the importance of the office of Parliament—namely the office of Lord Chancellor procedural duties associated with the job. There are, —and split it into its component parts. There were all however, well over 100 people working in the House sorts of good intentions, but it turned out to be not who are knowledgeable about and familiar with procedure. nearly as straightforward as the authors of the plan We were also mindful that the post holder is responsible assumed and resulted in a considerable backlash. That for spending more than £200 million of taxpayers’ should be a warning to us to proceed with care, as the money and employing 1,750 people. This palace lies at motion proposes. the heart of our democracy, yet the way it is run is On the central issue of whether it is realistic to expect wasteful and shambolic. We are asking our constituents the diverse qualities needed for a Clerk of the House on to bear substantial expenditure cuts and cuts in services, the one hand and a chief executive on the other to be and while they suffer that we are swimming in inefficiencies. found in one person, my view is that in the case of Yet, because some Members concern themselves only Sir Robert Rogers the answer was yes. I said as much in with what happens in this Chamber, they are willing to the tributes to him a few weeks ago, as did many others. downgrade the vital job of ensuring best value from the One of the key questions for the Select Committee is expenditure of more than £200 million of their constituents’ whether it continues to be realistic to expect to find one hard-earned money. person to hold those qualities or whether they need to Things are so shambolic that, as the right hon. Member be separated. The other reason that the Select Committee for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) said, it can take our needs to re-examine the issue is this: not only should it constituents an hour to get through St Stephen’s to see look at separation, but it should look at something us. We overspent massively on the building of Portcullis short of separation—a sort of devo-max; in other words, House, yet managing capital projects seems less important as hinted at by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford than who is sitting in a chair in the Chamber. It is as and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), keeping a important to our democracy to run this place well as it Clerk, but having underneath him a chief operating is to have somebody in the chair who is knowledgeable officer to whom certain functions are delegated. 1035 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1036 the House the House [Sir George Young] I end by gently asking a question. What would have happened in this case had we not had the safety valve of The House has to be crystal clear on the issue of the Backbench Business Committee, enabling the House accountability. As Sir Robert Rogers made clear in his not just to make its views known, but to pass a resolution, letter, many of the decisions that he took as Clerk in a way that was not possible before—a resolution that impacted on the decisions he took as chief executive I am happy to support? and vice versa. If we had a chief operating officer answerable to the Clerk, that would provide a focus for services of the House and avoid all the problems of 8.14 pm having co-equals, and it would not need legislation. Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to Without primary legislation, the Clerk would still be the follow the fourth former Leader of the House of Commons corporate officer, with statutory responsibilities that and become the fifth to speak in the debate. The right could not be separated from the responsibilities of a hon. Gentleman was right to draw attention to the chief executive. fandango that greeted the initial proposal not to change Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): the role of the Lord Chancellor but to abolish it—something Does my right hon. Friend recall that in Sir Kevin that, as I am witness, did not quite succeed. Tebbit’s report into the management of this place, one I am grateful to those who tabled the motion—I of his recommendations—recommendation 19—was that believe the whole House is—and to the Backbench there should be such a role, namely an operating officer Business Committee, as the right hon. Member for with commercial experience who was the deputy to the North West Hampshire (Sir George Young) said, for Clerk? finding a way to secure a resolution to what had become a very difficult issue. I am grateful to those who tabled Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. and it, too, for nominating me as the Chair of the Select learned Friend for refreshing the House’s memory of Committee. I hope that such gratitude is something I that particular Tebbit recommendation. If we had two will still be able to express in December. I and other co-equals, they could play Members off against each colleagues elected to the Committee will, I am certain, other; indeed, Members could play them off against do our very best and devote as much time as possible to each other too. That has to be taken on board. meet the high expectations set out in the motion. The right hon. Gentleman said that he was slightly Mr Jenkin: I do not prejudge this question, but if we worried about the time scale. I am more than slightly went for a chief operating officer under the Clerk, the worried about it, but it is the time scale. It is impossible really important thing is that the chief operating officer for this Committee to hold its first meeting before should be directly and visibly accountable, in a way that 14 October. Yes, the end date is 12 January, but taking the present officers under the Clerk are not visible and account of the Christmas recess, the Committee will in accountable. practice have nine weeks in the late autumn in which to conduct its business—to take oral and written evidence Sir George Young: I think the Commission could and to come to a consideration. make that happen in the terms of reference if we go down that particular route. The terms of reference of this Committee are wide. The imperative is obviously to make recommendations I agree that some of the considerable burdens on the on the allocation of responsibilities for the House services Clerk’s shoulders should be removed. In the meantime, currently exercised by the Clerk and the chief executive. I think the appointment process should not be paused; I Whether we will be able to go wider than that remains think it should be aborted. If Carol Mills, with whom I to be seen. have some sympathy, wanted to show that she understands how this place works, she would withdraw her application, resolve a constitutional impasse and generate some Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): A good will among colleagues. My right hon. Friend the number of us are concerned that this timetable is too Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) made tight. If the right hon. Gentleman comes to that conclusion a good point about there being robust interim arrangements once he has looked into this as Chair of the Committee, in place. will he come back to the House and ask for the timetable As my right hon. Friend the Member for South to be extended? In that event, would he suggest that an Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) said, we have to take on interim chief executive or Clerk, perhaps combined, be board the interface with the other place, where there is a appointed? Clerk of the Parliaments, who has a unified command. How would he interface if one separated the jobs down Mr Straw: If that is the view of the Committee, I this end? would of course come back to the House. My view, I have two final points. I am slightly worried about however, is that if this job is to be done in this Parliament, the ambitious time scale for the Select Committee. it must be done in practice by 12 January, or no more Nominations for the proposed Select Committee do not than a couple of weeks later. close for over a month and then there are but three I am not standing for Parliament again, but if the months to complete the task, including Christmas. The House wants to pass a sort of Blackburn-max arrangement House may have other things on its mind by then. and create me as the Member for Blackburn for life, Braithwaite and Tebbit took many months, with people that would be fine; I would vote for that—provided the doing nothing else. We may need an interim report in salary was appropriate! In the real world, however, the January, if the ground is to be thoroughly covered, and few months leading up to the Dissolution in early April a final report later. will be preoccupied with the matter called the general 1037 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1038 the House the House election. I think we have to do this job as best we can. Sir Menzies Campbell: But a chief executive has Then, in late January or early February, we should overall responsibility, and the finance director is below conduct a debate and come to a decision. him. I do not have a great deal of experience of commerce My last point, which is important as a matter of or business, but the experience that I do have demonstrates record, is that although I have strong views on almost clearly to me that, in the example given by the right hon. every subject under the sun, I have no strong views on Gentleman, there is no doubt about who would have to this matter. I have never expressed strong views on it, give way. I simply do not believe that it is right, having and I accept that there are arguments on both sides. My regard to the controversy that has surrounded this aim will be to ensure that we examine in the most matter up to now, for us to have a system that allows for judicious way possible the merits of the case for a single further controversy in the future. post, for a separated post and for how the separation Let us return, very quickly, to the question of should work, and then to make recommendations to constitutional importance. I think that it is significant. the House. That is why, in my mind, the primacy of the Clerk as the senior person ought to be preserved, and that is why I 8.19 pm think that the suggestion of a chief operating officer makes a great deal of sense. Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): I have not engaged myself in the organisation of the House as As I said earlier, it seems to me that the sooner these much as many of those who have already spoken. As I issues are resolved, the better. That is why I expressed look around the Chamber, I am slightly surprised to see disappointment about the fact that more Members with that I am the only Member representing a Scottish Scottish constituencies were not present. The length of constituency who is present. There is a serious point to time allowed to the right hon. Member for Blackburn is that, because if a decision is taken on 18 September that extremely short. When a special Select Committee was Scotland should seek independence— established to consider the right of the police to enter these premises, I, as Chairman, had to ask for an Mr Straw: Separation. extension, but the right hon. Gentleman will not have that luxury. I think that we should all be conscious of Sir Menzies Campbell: Separation, if you like. If that the fact that we are imposing a considerable burden. happens, the next 18 months and indeed for a long time after, it is going to be enormously testing of every Mr Blunkett rose— procedure of this House. The volume of legislation will be enormous, and the number of occasions on which Sir Menzies Campbell: The right hon. Gentleman was the Speaker, and indeed the House—and Front Benchers a member of that special Select Committee, so I will too—will require expert advice will also be enormous. give way to him. On that basis, I, at least, am surprised that when it came to this appointment, an acquaintance with parliamentary Mr Blunkett: And a very good Chair the right hon. procedure was thought to be sufficient. In my view, a and learned Gentleman was—but we understood, did detailed knowledge of it is essential. we not, as we dealt with those issues, how crucial it was to have someone who had real oversight and managerial I have some sympathy with those who wish to divide experience. the role into two, but I am concerned—more so than the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain)—about Sir Menzies Campbell: I do not want to reopen the the possibilities, indeed the problems, that might be question of the Serjeant at Arms, which formed a created by two co-equals. What happens if there is a substantial part of that Committee’s consideration. I genuine dispute? Is the Speaker to be drawn in as some simply say that we need a chain of command that is kind of arbiter? What will be the chain of responsibility? clear and unambiguous, because anything other than Who will answer to whom? That is why, when the right that is likely to lead to controversy of the kind that we hon. Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George have thus far unnecessarily embraced because of the Young) was talking about a chief operating officer, I way in which this matter has been dealt with. was rather disappointed that the idea was so readily dismissed in some parts of the House. I hope that the I have a great deal of sympathy for Ms Mills, who right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) will give finds herself to be the subject of such controversy. it serious consideration . However, I was powerfully affected by the observation made a moment ago that, had people understood that a It should also be remembered that the Clerk of the chief executive-type person was to be appointed, many House is a key part of the constitution of the United more people with those skills might have applied. If we Kingdom. If that were not so, the appointment would have either separation or, as I prefer, a chief operating not be made by the monarch. officer, it may be very interesting to see the extent to which the volume and nature of candidates is different Mr Hain: I entirely agree with what the right hon. from what it was in the first instance. and learned Gentleman has just said about the Clerk’s constitutional role. That is a matter of fact, and I am 8.25 pm not suggesting that we challenge it. However, I also think that there should be a separate chief executive Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I have been role. I do not see why there should not be two senior encouraged by the tone of the debate, and I think there figures, who will behave as senior figures do, as in any will be unanimity on the motion. I was beginning to other organisation. Finance directors may disagree with think that we are all modernisers now, but in view of chief executives, but they find a solution, and we could one or two of the contributions I am not entirely expect the same from those who will take these two roles. convinced of that. 1039 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1040 the House the House [Hazel Blears] the idea of a chief operating officer. That would entrench the current hierarchy, and the Clerk would remain the Over the last 20 years, since I have been in the House, position to have, with the say over what should be chief there has been massive change in business outside as executive decisions on management, skills, human resources well as in this place. When we look at the developments and technology. I think we can have an independent in employment practices, the real importance now of office-holder for procedural advice, with the ability to the agenda for diversity—something that the House take decisions on procedure who is not countermanded never really talked about 20 years ago—the introduction by the chief executive on those issues, and also have a of the internet, the whole issue around cyber and the chief executive who runs this place in the 21st century. issues around security, it is clear that the practices of I finish by saying that I am very proud of my history—of the House have changed enormously. I want to pay course I am—but I certainly do not want to live in it. tribute to our current Speaker, because I think he has done more than any other Speaker that I and other Members have experience of to genuinely try to modernise 8.29 pm and open up this House of Commons and make us Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): I more contemporary and more in touch with our support what has been said about the need for us to constituents. show support for the Chair and to be respectful of it. I We need only look at the way in which the Speaker must, however, pick a bone with the former Leader of has opened up the apartments to voluntary organisations the House, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), and charities. There have been more people in those who said that he had had no support for his modernisation Speaker’s apartments over the last few years than there measures. I remember standing at the Dispatch Box as were in the many decades before, and this is their shadow Leader of the House and being shoulder to House; they pay for this Parliament through their taxes shoulder with him on that issue. I got a right pasting for and they are entitled to have the place open. it. So he did get my support, but it was not always easy. Let us look at the establishment of the nursery. Some in this House fought tooth and nail against that because Mr Hain: I am grateful for it. they did not want to lose the rifle range—I think that is what it was—and did not see the need to have a nursery Sir Oliver Heald: Thank you. in this place. If we look at the issues around diversity, It has been mentioned that the Clerk of the House we see that we now have some fantastic groups here that has an important role as our adviser on the constitution, are seeking to get in the talents of disabled people and procedure and business. The role is important not only people from different backgrounds. The Speaker has to us but to those in many other countries who consult supported the placement scheme I set up to bring in our Clerk because he or she is the leading expert on working-class people to come and work in Parliament. those constitutional matters. As the right hon. and Robert Rogers, when he was Clerk, supported an learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies apprenticeship programme here in the House which is Campbell) said, we now face big issues relating to the taking in apprentices, mainly from east London and operation of the devolution settlement, human rights from many different faith backgrounds, who, again, and other matters, and we need authoritative advice to would never otherwise have got an opportunity to work be given in a definitive way by someone with the standing in this House. of the Clerk of the House. The Clerk of the House is I think this House is dramatically improved by very paid at the rate of a Lord Justice of Appeal—not a many of the measures that the Speaker has taken. He High Court judge—because he is in a comparable position has been brave and has been prepared to take on some of authority, or so it has always been thought. very establishment views to achieve that change. I think I want to give the House two examples of the kind of that some of the behaviour of some Members during advice that I have seen our Clerk give. For my sins, I sat this process has been pretty appalling, and I agree on the Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords entirely with the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), Reform Bill. We had experts, academics and all the top who said that we now have to move forward—not use lawyers appearing before the Committee; everybody this as an agenda for people to pursue—and recognise came to give evidence over a long period. When we read the progress we have made. the report, however, we can see that the most authoritative I think there are savings to be made if we do this witness was Sir Robert Rogers, the Clerk of the House. properly and if we do much more of our business People disagreed about that issue, but no one disagreed jointly with the Lords. I have been involved in a programme that it was fantastic to see him giving evidence to us; he that looks at bringing the procurement contracts together could point to the 1671 or the 1678 resolution of the between the Commons and the Lords. We are going to House, for example, and express the matter in question put social value clauses in those contracts so that we get in a simple, straightforward way. maximum social impact from them, and that will achieve Similarly, when I was serving on the Standards and a tremendous saving. Privileges Committee, we had to deal with the difficult Let us be imaginative. Let us be creative. This is not issues arising from the Culture, Media and Sport about replacing what we have got with another bit of Committee’s report on phone hacking. We had to decide status quo. This is a fabulous opportunity for my right whether there had been contempt of the House, and hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) to whether issues of privilege arose from that. It was the take this place forward. Clerk of the House who gave the most convincing and I personally believe that we need two people. The authoritative advice. Someone needs to be able to give skills sets are so different that it would be impossible to such advice. A position of authority is required, and combine them under one individual. I do not support I would not want to see that position diminished. 1041 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1042 the House the House I do not disagree with the point that we also need decay that it is essential that we accept the challenge, modern, efficient business practice here in the House. and the work should begin no later than 2020. That Sir Kevin Tebbit looked at that matter in 2007 and challenge, given a recognition that we certainly will not decided that a chief operating officer—a deputy Clerk be able to carry out that work while the House is sitting with commercial experience from outside this place—was or during the long recess, as the case may be, provides the answer. We need to look at all these questions. Can all the more reason for effective managerial authority, we split the role? Is there a case for a deputy with which I just cannot recognise as being the work of the commercial experience? For once, I think it should be Clerk of the House. I therefore hope— the House itself that does this. We should not bring in outside experts. We have had the Ibbs, Braithwaite and Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I call Tebbit reports; now let us do this ourselves. I support Michael Fabricant. the motion. 8.33 pm 8.37 pm Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I want to Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): I once shocked avoid personalities, and I certainly deplore whispering my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) campaigns. I consider this to be an interesting debate by telling him that I was a moderniser when Notting and I am glad that it is being held. However, if we had Hill was still a dump. So I very much welcome the gone through the usual procedures for appointing a new motion, because I recognise that we need to have change Clerk as a result of a vacancy, it is most unlikely that we to manage the Houses of Parliament through a difficult would be having this debate today. For some time, I time, in terms of both our constitution and the structure have considered it rather odd that the House itself has of this building. had no say whatever in the appointment of the Clerk. This is no reflection at all on the previous Clerk or his Now is not the time to go over the past, but I want to predecessors, but none of those appointments was ever say, first, that I commend the people who sat on the brought before, say, the Public Administration Committee. panel. As the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) It has always simply been a question of the Speaker of said, they gave 20 hours of their time to do the job as the day announcing that so-and-so has been appointed, best as they could. Where I disagree with her is in my and that has been the end of the matter. What we are belief that it was not done in the way she implied: as a doing now, in having the matter thoroughly looked into modern business would have done it. The job description by a Select Committee, is the right approach in every would not have been changed from what had been possible way. I have thought on previous occasions that decided by a board earlier on. We heard from my right I should express some concern about the way in which hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire appointments were made for the most senior job—the (Mr Lansley) that the description for the Clerk that the most senior officer—in the House, but I thought, on panel was recruiting was changed from the decision reflection, that no purpose would be served by doing so. made by the House of Commons Commission. After all, first and foremost, we are here for political I share the House’s concern for Carol Mills, because purposes. she went into this application in good faith and it is I find it difficult to understand why the position of wrong if her career will be damaged by what is happening the Clerk—as the hon. and learned Member for North at the moment. However, the fact is that consultants East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) has just emphasised, were employed, rightly or wrongly, and then, for all we are talking about the No.1 authority on procedural sorts of reasons, the panel decided not to listen to them rules and on “Erskine May, and the very person who at a specified time. As I said in an intervention on my would give advice to the Speaker and to the House—should hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South be combined with that of chief executive, which is Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), that meant that the panel entirely a managerial position. It may well be that some did not know that an inquiry was being undertaken into very talented people in this world could combine the her behaviour in Australia by the Australian Senate. two position adequately, but I very much doubt it—again, That would have been relevant. [Interruption.] Idonot that is no reflection on previous Clerks. know why Opposition Members are chuntering, to use Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking the words of Mr Speaker, because that information was (Margaret Hodge), I do not believe this place has been in a parliamentary answer from the House of Commons well managed—to a large extent, the opposite is the Commission. So I am afraid that Members will have to case. Indeed, in previous debates on the functioning of take that matter up with the commission. the House, I have made sharp criticism of the way in There are questions to be answered. One thing that I which certain functions and aspects of this place have hate in this place at times is the way in which we all like been managed—or mismanaged, as the case may be. We to sweep things under the carpet. In due course—not have to recognise that, as has been said in this debate, tonight—questions will be asked about why Sir Robert there are two separate positions here. It may well be that Rogers retired early and about his relationship with the Select Committee will not come to that conclusion Mr Speaker. and will recommend otherwise, but I hope that it will Now I wish to move on. I agree with what the right recognise that we have two different and important hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies functions here, those of Clerk of the House and chief Campbell) said. In my experience as a joint managing executive, and not that of a chief operating officer, as director in business, a joint managing director rarely that is a bit of a cop out, to say the least. works. There needs to be a clear line of command. We We need to recognise that, leaving aside day-to-day have heard already that there is a constitutional role management, we are faced with a challenge: the need to that goes back to 1363 with the Clerk. The activities rebuild this House of Commons. It is in such a state of need to be split, but I firmly agree with the right hon. 1043 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1044 the House the House [Michael Fabricant] exceeded all expectations in strengthening the power of Back Benchers to hold Ministers to account in this and learned Gentleman and Sir Kevin Tebbit that there House. should be a chief operating officer reporting to the chief executive, otherwise, as sure as pears are pears, we will Michael Fabricant indicated assent. be coming back here again for other conflicts; it is inevitable. If we have not been professional in our Dr Lewis: I am delighted to put it on the record that selection of a replacement Clerk up to now, let us at my hon. Friend agrees with that. least be so now and in the future, under the guidance of As a result of all that, I try to help Mr Speaker the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) . extricate himself from time to time from the holes that he occasionally digs for himself as a result of his 8.41 pm passion for modernisation. For that reason, I ask the House to discount my bias. It is also for that reason that Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): I welcomed the proposals in the motion and happily Some years ago the Victoria and Albert museum ran an agreed to sign it at the request of various hon. Friends advertising campaign that said, “An ace café with quite who have spoken. a nice museum attached.” In a sense, Parliament is not the first institution that has a core function, which is to As I said in a point of order a few days ago, had be a legislative body, but also has access to the public. anybody asked me about the matter even six weeks ago, There is nothing new in the problem we face, which is to or certainly six months ago before this dispute came up, be not only inward looking but outward looking in I would have thought that the definition of the Clerk reaching out. We just need to face up to that. The was all the definitions we have heard in the debate requirements for running the ace café and for running except one: chief executive officer. In our minds, the the museum are quite different, and we need to acknowledge Clerk is rightly associated with being the top procedural that, particularly as we have huge restoration functions officer. That is what I have always regarded him as. Had and greater access to the public. As Members have said, anyone asked me before the dispute began to describe we have not run this House in the best possible way. the functions of the Clerk, I would not have had the faintest idea that he was in a position to overrule The second issue relates to legal advice and the fact everybody else on management matters. That is an that we are a legislative body. As a Member, there have anachronistic position. been two occasions in which I have had to draw on legal advice. One was when I was representing this House at Therefore, when the Committee is set up, I suggest it the Convention on the Future of Europe in Brussels. To asks itself these four questions. First, should a top CEO the Foreign Office’s dismay—two Members of this House be expected to be a top procedural adviser too? Secondly, may remember this—I decided to take Mr Speaker’s should a top procedural adviser be expected to be a top legal counsel with me, because I thought that the advice CEO too? Thirdly, should two such different roles be I would receive would be a darn sight more wide-reaching. combined by default in future as they have been in the The second instance was as a member of the Foreign past? Fourthly, should the top procedural adviser be Affairs Committee when we held the inquiry into the allowed, if the roles are separated, to overrule the top extremely unfortunate death of Dr David Kelly. Those CEO on management matters, or vice versa on procedural were events where we needed extremely deep and sensitive matters? My answers to those questions are clear: no, legal advice, which was very specific to this House. no, no, no. First and foremost, we must remember that our function The reason for my answers is not only that I have is as legislators. To be effective legislators, we must wanted for years to emulate the late, great Margaret reach out. To reach out, this place must be run effectively Thatcher on the Floor of the House, but that I profoundly and efficiently. The best thing we can do now is to draw disagree, with the greatest respect, with the right hon. a line under what has happened in the past and to stop and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies sniping at Mr Speaker. If we do not accept his support Campbell). It is not a question of having a single chain and acknowledge his authority, this place will not function. of command, because we are not talking about a single The sooner we can move on with the Select Committee management function. We are talking about two separate and arrive at a decision that allows us to move on in functions, which means that the people at the top of 2015 so this place can function going into the general them should have authority in each. election, the better. 8.47 pm 8.43 pm Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): I support Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): My old the proposed Select Committee and its eminent Chair-elect, friend—and he is my old friend—the hon. Member for but I want to be reassured that it is not an effort to Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) said that he would not undermine an elected and reforming Speaker of the dwell on the past, and then proceeded to spend three- House. Mr Speaker has given us many more opportunities quarters of his speech doing precisely that. He could than we had in the past to hold the Government to usefully have done at the start of his speech what I am account. going to do at the start of mine, which is to declare not I should also like to be assured that the Committee a financial interest but a personal interest. I suspect that will go wider than the appointment of a new Clerk and if he had done so, it would have been a slightly different splitting responsibilities with a new chief executive. one from mine. My personal interest is that Mr Speaker Ideally, the Committee would at the very least recommend is an old friend of mine. Not surprisingly, that means that the entire management structure of the House be that I like him quite a lot most of the time. I believe looked at in this modern age. It would also ideally that, as has been said by others in this debate, he has recommend any changes necessary to improve support 1045 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1046 the House the House to elected Members. To my mind, that should include What has happened this summer has been a disgrace, organisation of the management and the Clerks department; with the same newspaper, the same reporters, a similar recruitment; what opportunities and prospects are on modus operandi and similar sources, it seems to me. As offer; how promotions are decided; and the perks and we consider the motion, I want to be assured that such privileges. Ideally, it would also include how we ensure bad behaviour will not be tolerated or rewarded in the that staffing and resources are responsive to the needs future. of Select Committees, so that we can exercise our role more effectively. 8.51 pm On Monday, the head of the TUC, Frances O’Grady, Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I welcome its first woman general secretary, talked about a “Downton the motion and I welcome Mr Speaker’s announcement Abbey” recovery. To many hon. Members, the House of the pause. I wrote to the Leader of the House in often has an archaic “Upstairs, Downstairs” feel. Perks August because in my role as Chairman of the Liaison and privileges for the few abound, but plenty of glass Committee I felt that members of the Committee would ceilings are apparent from lower down the ladder. think that the House needed further discussion and to The debate was prompted by the appointment of a be able to exercise some influence over how the issue new Clerk. One notable aspect of the process was that was resolved. An appropriate way of resolving it has outside applications were invited from a range of candidates. been found. That seems to have prompted a bitter reaction from As Chairs of Select Committees, members of the some quarters whose interests seem vested in purely Liaison Committee have a lot of experience of Clerks at preserving the past. work. Indeed, I ought to point out in the light of some In this day and age, it would seem strange to the of the comments made that the idea that Clerks do not outside world if this were all simply to boil down to do management is seriously misleading. In the course of defending Buggins’s turn. There is no necessary connection, our daily work most of us see senior Clerks exercising as we have heard, between an encyclopaedic knowledge management functions. They have of course been of “Erskine May” built up over decades and the ability encouraged to do so and, in many cases, trained to do to run a multi-million pound organisation such as so as that is now a significant part of the role of Clerks. Parliament in the 21st century. I was on the House of Commons Commission when As well as the best management and governance, in previous reports considered the issue of separating the the modern age the House is urgently crying out for the roles of Clerk and chief executive and there are quite updating of parliamentary privilege, to which I hope powerful arguments for doing so. I am sympathetic to a the Select Committee could also give a push. A privileges move in that direction, personally, but it is essential that Bill has long been mooted, but there has been precious the authority of the Clerk of the House must not be little sign of one from the Government or from within undermined. Some fairly obvious points follow on from the House. Two years ago, for example, the Select that. For example, the nature of the appointment as a Committee on Culture, Media and Sport produced a Crown appointment and the fact that the appointment damning report naming people who had misled the can only be terminated on an address should remain the House over phone hacking and a cover-up at News property of the post of Clerk of the House, not of any International. Those conclusions, under our old procedures, chief executive. There are some serious issues, which now lie parked with the Standards and Privileges have been aired today, about where accountability lies Committees for further action. When we came to draft and I would be worried by the thought that a chief the report and pressed for clarity about privilege and executive could countermand the Clerk in a matter that the sanctions available, vagueness was the guidance of affected the ability of Committees to carry out their the day for fear of exposing the fact that the emperor, functions, for instance. We must be careful and I repose namely Parliament, had no clothes— confidence in the ability of the Committee that we are appointing to consider those issues very carefully. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I think we need to get back on to the subject in hand. The question of authority is important. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Paul Farrelly: Mr Deputy Speaker, I am coming back Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) mentioned the Committee to the issue of the management and governance of the he so carefully chaired on the involvement of the police House, but I wanted to speak frankly about how that in a search within the House. It was clear within those difficult report involved trial and tribulation in how proceedings—I was also a member—that the loss of Committees were supported by the management of the authority by the Serjeant at Arms contributed significantly House. to what went wrong. Whatever decision was made about I want to conclude with a few words about one where the responsibility should lie, the responsibility of disturbing aspect of the appointment process, namely speaking to the police should have had with it the that attacks on Mr Speaker, the appointment panel and authority that previously reposed with the Serjeant at one of the outside candidates, Carol Mills from Australia, Arms. We must be very careful that the authority that began before the appointment was made on 30 July. reposes in the Clerk of the House and is then, by They began 10 days before, during the interviews, when extension, exercised by Clerks throughout our system is leaked attacks from unnamed sources appeared in one not undermined. Sunday tabloid, and they have carried on since. I will That leads me to another point, which I made in an not dignify the organ my naming it, but it was hardly intervention earlier but want to reiterate, about the the first time it has attacked Mr Speaker, nor will it be arrangements that we have in the meantime. Let us bear the last. I have particular sympathy in that regard in mind that that period could be a time of some very because two years ago I was on the end of such leaks, significant events, such as arguments about who should and not from elected Members, to the same newspaper. be voting on which Bills. We need to be sure that the 1047 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Select Committee on Governance of 1048 the House the House [Sir Alan Beith] sitting in the row in front of him. That would lead to complete disorder. The procedures of the House cannot person acting in the role of Clerk of the House from the operate properly without confidence, and that requires position of Clerk Assistant has the authority necessary the experience that allows the bluff to be realistic. to serve the House in the way that the Clerk of the Then there is the question of seniority. Sometimes House would. He must also have the capacity and the requirements of democracy, and particularly the authority to delegate, sufficient to the functions of rights of the minority, need inefficiency within our systems. Clerk Assistant, and the time necessary to do the important If we have a purely efficient system, the Government get job that he will be called on to do during this interim all their legislation through, as they feel like it, with very period. little debate and rapid progress through the House. The The Committee may need more time, in which case it inefficiencies ensure that the Opposition have their say—and will have to come back to the House and ask for it, but those of us on the Government Benches must always the time scale is set by the fact that we are approaching remember that we will not remain there for ever. We a general election. I wish it well in its work. therefore need the Clerk as the most senior figure and the one who can bluff the best. 8.55 pm Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): It is 8.59 pm with some diffidence that I follow the greatest luminaries Jesse Norman: It falls to me in the very few seconds in the House who have spoken in this debate. It must be that remain to thank all Members across this House for a rare debate that has had quite so many former Leaders their extraordinarily wise and thoughtful contributions. of the House speak in it, and it is of fundamental I am grateful to the Government and Opposition Front importance. Benchers for supporting the motion. Mr Speaker called, It is worth looking at how this situation has evolved. rightly and wisely, for good will and consensus; we have In giving up his prerogative to appoint the Clerk, the seen those things tonight and for that we should all be Speaker made an important modernising and opening-up profoundly grateful. move, and that is to be commended. The setting up of a Question put and agreed to. panel was a good way of opening up the process, even if Resolved, I do not like the conclusion that it reached. Once it all came out, there was then, in this more open process, That this House welcomes the Speaker’s announcement on naturally a greater interest from the House in how it 1 September of a pause in the process of appointment of a new Clerk of the House and Chief Executive, to give time for further had all happened and whether it had happened in the consideration; and accordingly determines that: best possible way. The Speaker has therefore been wise (a) there shall be a select committee, called the House of Commons to agree to, and even to suggest, a pause in the process Governance Committee, to consider the governance of the House so that it may be thoroughly considered and a Clerk of Commons, including the future allocation of the responsibilities appointed who has the confidence of every Member of for House services currently exercised by the Clerk of the House the House. and Chief Executive; We have heard a very important debate on whether (b) the Committee report to the House by 12 January 2015; the role should be divided—on whether a Clerk can, by (c) the Committee shall have the powers given to select committees his nature, be good at running a big organisation, or a related to government departments under paragraph 4(a) and chief executive from outside can be a good Clerk. 4(b) of Standing Order No. 152; Underlying all that, there is this fundamental point: (d) Mr Jack Straw be the Chair of the Committee; whatever other qualities the Clerk has, they must have (e) the Committee shall consist of seven other backbench members, the complete confidence of the House when advising to be elected by parties in the proportion of three Conservative, individual Members and the Speaker on what the two Labour and one Liberal Democrat, together with one procedure is. representative of the other parties represented in the House; the parties shall forward their nominations to the Chair of the The great thing about an unwritten constitution is Committee of Selection by 14 October and any motion made in that, to an extent, we make it up as we go along. In this the House on behalf of the Committee of Selection by the Chair country, there are not really any constitutional experts; or another member of the Committee shall be treated as having there are just people who insist that they know more been made in pursuance of Standing Order No. 121(2) for the about the constitution than the next person they talk to. purposes of Standing Order No. 15(1)(c). There is an enormous amount of bluffing when people tell us what our constitution is. The more authoritatively people say they know what it is, the more they get away PETITIONS with it. [Laughter.] I know that, because it is a bluff that I am not ashamed to use myself from time to time. Dualling of the A45 That is very important in a Clerk, and having a Clerk of 40 years’ experience may well be essential—they could 9pm well be an Australian Clerk, as the Australian Parliament follows some very similar procedures to ours, so there is Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The first no objection in principle to an Australian—because petition I want to present concerns a major improvement when a point is order is raised and the Speaker is to the A45 in my constituency and the Chowns Mill quickly whispered advice by the Clerk, or one of the roundabout. The petition is a result of the efforts of assistant Clerks, the whole House must then accept that Dudley Hughes, who suggested the idea of a listening ruling as authoritative. Otherwise we would have endless campaign, which was very ably led by Tom Pursglove, points of order questioning the authority of the Chair who is the Conservative parliamentary candidate for and the advice being given to the Speaker by the Clerk Corby. 1049 Select Committee on Governance of 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 1050 the House The petition states: Regeneration (South-east Wakefield) The Humble Petition of the residents of Wellingborough, Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Rushden and East Northamptonshire and the surrounding areas, do now adjourn.—(Damian Hinds.) Sheweth, That the Petitioners believe that the heavy traffic congestion on 9.4 pm the A45 between Stanwick and the A14 at the Chowns Mill Roundabout is unacceptable because there are numerous accidents Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): It is good to see you which result in serious injury and loss of life and further that the in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, and to see the Minister Petitioners believe that the main A road delays between the M1 in her place. It is a great privilege to be allowed to lead and the A14 cause economic damage to the local and regional economy. this short debate on the regeneration of south-east Wakefield. Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House urges the Department for Transport to encourage Northamptonshire I suppose that everybody who has been a Member of County Council and East Northamptonshire District Council to this House and represented a constituency would say, work together to ensure, as a matter of urgency, that the A45 is genuinely, how proud they were to represent the area for dualled between Stanwick and the A14 and that significant which they were elected. I feel enormous pride as the improvements are made to the Chowns Mill Roundabout including representative of about 23 villages in south-east Wakefield, grade separation. most of which to some extent had a strong link to the And your Petitioners, as duty bound, will ever pray, &c. coal mining industry in the past. [P001386] The industry bred a particular kind of person, and I Proposed Closure of Glamis Hall (Wellingborough) want to describe some of the attributes of the people I represent. They are tough-minded, extremely independent and resourceful, as well as overwhelmingly honest and 9.2 pm straightforward individuals. Because the mining industry Mr Bone: I am grateful to have been given the was so dangerous, they learned how to care for each opportunity to present another petition. I am afraid other. After all, down the mine your life might depend that this petition is so heavy that I am unable physically on a neighbour, and his might depend on you. Strong to present it myself. It has been signed by 10,119 petitioners and caring communities therefore emerged and quite and represents a very controversial matter in my often, both below and above ground, when times got constituency. I am very pleased to say that both parties tough, people stuck together. Frequently, it was the on the borough council of Wellingborough have decided women who were the strong and tough characters who to re-engage with the issue and look at it again. bound so many of our communities together. The petition states: I want to emphasise one thing above all, which is my The Humble Petition of the residents of Wellingborough, constituents’ passionate commitment to hard work. How Northamptonshire and the surrounding areas, could it be otherwise? These people went down the pits Sheweth, into the dark in the most dangerous conditions, and That the Petitioners believe that the proposed closure of Glamis they helped to create the wealth that made our country Hall in Wellingborough is unacceptable because there are no such a rich and powerful nation. Mining is part of our other day care facilities for the elderly in Wellingborough; further heritage. I am pleased to say that the first deep mine in a that the Petitioners believe that for many of the 180 elderly people generation is about to be sunk in my constituency, but who attend the day centre it is their only opportunity to socialise, to be honest, we have on the whole moved on from the and provides an excellent service, including transport to/from the coal mining industry. Yetthe qualities that I have described centre, bathing, podiatry and hair dressing services; and further have not gone away. They are still there to be seen every that the Petitioners believe that it provides a social atmosphere for day in all the villages I represent. some of our most vulnerable people, as well as providing recreation bookings and sports changing rooms in the evenings and weekends. When I think about the regeneration of our communities, Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House so much of which has taken place in the past few years, urges the Department for Communities and Local Government I think about Fitzwilliam or Frickley, where the coal to encourage Northamptonshire County Council and the Borough mines were left derelict when the mining industry simply Council of Wellingborough to work together to ensure Glamis closed down overnight. Hundreds of acres of land were, Hall is kept open until the end of November 2015, while working in effect, abandoned by the National Coal Board. The with the community in the interim period to find a permanent land was polluted, and left with dangerous coal pit solution which is satisfactory to all. formations. In those two areas, it was primarily but not And your Petitioners, as duty bound, will ever pray, &c. exclusively the women who said, “We’re not going to [P001385] have this sort of despoliation of our community for generations to come.” They came together and, with the support of many other agencies, created two wonderful country parks on those two pitheads. At another, South Kirby pit, local entrepreneurs and business people are now creating new industries and businesses, and the same is taking place at Dale lane in Upton. When I think about regeneration and community spirit, I think of the library in my home village of Ackworth. The council had to withdraw from it because of a lack of funding, but members of the community said, “No, we’re not seeing the library close.” With the help of the parish council, we now have an active community library. I also think of the Westfield lane 1051 Regeneration (South-east Wakefield)10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regeneration (South-east Wakefield) 1052

[Jon Trickett] hand. The first relates to the green belt. I represent 23 villages. I have described their similarities, their centre, which is a true community hub. It provides history and their economics, but the rivalry between cheap food for people who are finding it difficult to pay them can be quite intense, as Members might imagine. their way, and there is a food bank and training for Frequently, the gap between one village and the next is people who need skills. just one or two fields. There is a danger that ribbon When I think about communities and regeneration, I development will creep into one field and then into the think about the brass bands, the male voice choirs, the next and, before we know it, two ancient communities, rugby league clubs—I know that is a subject close to with their own histories and cultures, and perhaps their your heart, Mr Deputy Speaker—the pensioners’Christmas own antagonisms, will be merged into one. dos and the sports facilities. Those community facilities I know that the Minister cannot speak about particular are found in every village and almost around every planning applications, but there is an application at the corner. They were created by miners, who paid 6p at the moment for green belt between Fitzwilliam and Havercroft. end of each week from their pay packet to sustain them. I am worried that it will begin to bridge the divide When the mines closed so precipitately, all those between those two communities. I ask the Minister to sixpences—there were thousands of men working down reflect—perhaps not now, but in a subsequent letter—on the pits—were gone, but somehow or other, the communities whether the powers that the Government have given the managed to hold on to the facilities and they continue council to protect the green belt are strong enough to to this day. ensure that our communities remain independent. I think, too, about the food banks that are beginning I want to reflect on where we have got to. As I have to re-emerge because things are getting tough again. In said, we sometimes need agencies, institutions and the some cases, they are being led by the same women who Government alongside us to help. One of those institutions ran the soup kitchens at the time of the strikes. I think was the Coalfields Regeneration Trust, which, over the of the successful business people who used to be miners, past 15 years or so, has been working side by side with who will dig into their pockets, often unasked, when coalfield communities throughout the country, helping there is a community problem. One business man who us to regenerate our areas. Now it is being brought to an used to be miner came to me one day when he heard end. That is premature, because the job that it was that a local woman had lost two children in a tragedy asked to do has not been completed. Two fifths of and could not afford to bury them. He asked how he neighbourhoods that make up the most deprived could help to pay for their burial, because he understood communities in the country are in coalfield areas, so the that the woman did not have the money that he did. He work of regeneration has not been achieved. wanted to do so anonymously. All those things make up As Members would expect of an area such as mine, the rich communities that I represent. Obviously, each which is solidly in the middle of the Yorkshire coalfield, of us knows the communities that we represent best. there are ongoing problems in spite of the CRT’s work. There are other forms of regeneration going on, One in five of all children in my constituency live in particularly through house building. Large housing estates poverty, and equally disturbing is the fact that a male are being built in South Elmsall and Featherstone. I child born today in the most deprived area of my welcome that because it will bring fresh blood, money constituency is expected to live 10 and a half years less and jobs into those villages, which are desperately needed. than a child born in the least deprived area. However, I do not think that housing on its own is The job is not done, and let us be honest, as much as sufficient to regenerate the communities that I represent. we can do locally, national issues are causing us to have We have done much to regenerate our communities continuing problems, because we are a grossly unequal locally, which shows how resilient those communities country. That problem of inequality goes to the heart of are. Above all, what I want to say about Yorkshire the problems facing the communities that I represent. mining communities is that they do not want to live on The problem is not that there are not enough jobs but handouts from the state, but they do occasionally need that the jobs are generally agency, part-time or temporary a helping hand up. When I was first elected in 1996, I work or full self-employment, with low pay. went to the local secondary schools in Minsthorpe and There are shocking regional disparities in pay. I do Hemsworth and asked the children how many of them not have time to go through all the details, but wages would go to university. Barely one person in those two and salaries in my constituency in Yorkshire have declined huge schools said that they would go to university. substantially—by more than £2,000 a year per person However, through the excellence of the teachers and the since 2008—and the decline continues. It is extraordinary support of the parents and the wider community, a to compare the average salary in my constituency with process of helping those young people to reach their that in the Prime Minister’s constituency. We discover potential was gradually arrived at. that average pay is £100 a week more in Witney than in I went back in 2010 at the end of the Labour Government Hemsworth, or £5,000 a year for each working man and and asked the new generation of children how many of woman. If the same pay were provided in Hemsworth them would go to university. Almost all of them put and Witney, an additional half a billion pounds a year their hands up and said, “We hope that we can.” That in salaries and income would come to Hemsworth. As happened because of a helping hand. They were not Members can imagine, that would be sufficient to complete living off the state and were not dependent on anybody, the process of regeneration. The problem of inequality but had somebody standing alongside them—teachers needs to be tackled. and schools, with some Government and council money— I believe that there is also a moral debt to mining helping them to achieve what they wanted to achieve. communities—it is a kind of social compact. We asked I want to refer to a couple of matters that trouble me men to go underground and help to create the wealth of because, from time to time, we need the state, an institution our country, then we closed the mines in the most brutal or an agency to stand alongside us and give us a helping manner imaginable. It is not sufficient for us to simply 1053 Regeneration (South-east Wakefield)10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regeneration (South-east Wakefield) 1054 walk away from those communities with the job only The hon. Gentleman mentioned the green belt, and half done, yet the Government give all the impression in although I cannot comment on the individual case, I the world of walking away, uninterested. There have shall write to him about the others issues he touched on. been cuts to the CRT; our local council has lost £185 million; I am pleased that a couple of areas in his constituency 180 local NHS staff have gone; the bedroom tax affects have put in place neighbourhood plans—that is on his 1,500 people in the area, and so on. The job is not point about villages at war—and I encourage other finished. areas in his constituency to take them up. In order to The Minister might say that there are fiscal problems, assist local communities that may not have much capacity but the Prime Minister, before he was elected, said, “We to do that, the Government are looking at putting will not cut front-line services. We will only cut waste.” I together some materials, templates and additional support. am a hard-bitten Yorkshireman—I do not like spending I recognise that this is tough stuff, particularly for the money, and I hate the idea of waste. I agree with cutting smaller communities that he describes, and we want to waste, but that is not what is happening in my constituency. ensure that they have the tools to get on with that. Agencies that should be standing alongside communities The hon. Gentleman spoke eloquently about the are being made to walk away because money is no pride and resilience in his community, and about its longer available to them. close community bond and grit. Although my constituency We know what has happened from the Chief Secretary of Portsmouth does not have many miners, I certainly to the Treasury, the man who sits next to the Chancellor. recognise the characters he describes. He is right that He has said that the Tories are regeneration and the sorts of activities that ensure “ideologically wedded to continuous cuts as the route to a smaller quality of life for all in our constituencies are down to state.” local people going that extra mile, putting themselves There we have it—an ideological commitment to a out, and coming up with ideas based on what will work smaller state. at a local level. I do not want a large state for the sake of it, and I I could enter into an ideological argument for the certainly do not want a Government who act like Big hon. Gentleman tonight but I will not do that. I am Brother. I want a Government who are active and who interested in what practical support I can supply to stand alongside individuals and communities and help people in his constituency, and he touched eloquently them to achieve their aspirations. This Government on a number of issues that my brief could assist with. have broken the social compact. We should recognise For example, high streets are as much about regenerating that ties of obligation bind us together, and it is a basic, local economies as about providing support and services British, moral and ethical value to suggest that if someone, to vulnerable people in our communities, as well as a some group, or one community or another, falls behind social hub and community contact. That is why we through no fault of their own, the rest of us should turn value and are investing in them. We are also giving round and help. The Government give the impression of particular encouragement and weight to representation having neglected that social compact and idea of not from social enterprise and the third sector in local letting people fall behind, and that basic British value. enterprise partnerships across the country. They will be a key part of the heavy lifting that the hon. Gentleman It is not too late for the Government to change described, and we are encouraging local enterprise course, and I appeal to the Minister to go away and partnerships to ensure that the sector is well represented look at what is happening in the coal field communities— on its boards. perhaps not this evening—especially in my area but also more widely, and see what else might be done. If the Wakefield council has made economic growth and Government continue to be as hard-faced as the impression fostering partnerships of the sort I described a priority. they give, they will be swept aside by a Government who This has secured a number of flagship projects, including will express more clearly the true values of the British the Merchant Gate and Trinity Walk developments, people in the general election next year. and supported the development of the highly successful Hepworth gallery, which is bringing people to Wakefield from across the country and further afield. As a result, 9.20 pm Wakefield centre is being transformed. An example of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the council’s approach to regeneration is the 25-year, Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): £750 million private finance initiative partnership with I congratulate the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Jon the Shanks Group plc for a new waste management Trickett) on securing this important debate on the facility. This secured up to £30.4 million in investment regeneration of south-east Wakefield. The Government from the Green Investment Bank and a group of leading recognise the historic challenges facing his local economy, international banks. The development is expected to be as outlined in this debate, and are investing in Wakefield. completed next year and will create 250 construction The Coalfields Regeneration Trust has made 191 individual jobs and 60 permanent jobs. Overall, the facilities will grant awards in the south-east Wakefield area, amounting process 200,000 tonnes of municipal waste per annum, to more than £3.9 million. Overall Government investment helping to increase the council’s recycling rate to at least in coalfield areas since 1999 has amounted to nearly 52%. £900 million. The Homes and Communities Agency has Wakefield is also host to many world-class businesses, spent nearly £7.8 million to date on bringing land back and major investments are being made—for example, into use at the former Frickley colliery and in south-east by Coca-Cola. In June, the company announced £13 million Wakefield. We are investing nearly £2 billion to unlock of investment in new technology at its Wakefield plant. major housing sites, including on brownfield land, and Coca-Cola is also working closely with local businesses £150 million to kick-start the regeneration of large in the community. For example, its site director, Ian housing estates. Johnson, participated in Wakefield business week this 1055 Regeneration (South-east Wakefield)10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Regeneration (South-east Wakefield) 1056

[Penny Mordaunt] There are also the Wakefield business support teams, which are on the ground working with companies and summer. Moreover, of course, it is not just investment communities to help to create jobs and get local people by household names that is making a big difference to into them. Based in south-east Wakefield, the delivery Wakefield and its people. Mark Ridgway, managing partners are using just short of £2 million of European director of Group Rhodes, is showing many of us the and local council resource to help businesses to start way on exports. A Queen’s award winner and one of and grow, including through exporting. Europe’s finest manufacturers of special purpose machinery, The Leeds city region growth deal includes £62.2 million Group Rhodes continues to expand and create jobs from the local growth fund confirmed for 2015-16 and through its partnerships worldwide. £233.3 million for the following year to 2021, and Beaumont Legal, one of the fastest-growing law practices £277.4 million of the total includes previously committed in the UK, recently cemented its position as Yorkshire’s funding by my colleagues in the Department for Transport largest residential conveyancer by opening a second for devolved local majors and other large schemes, with office in Wakefield. Another excellent example of investor funding beyond 2015-16. The award includes £180 million confidence in Wakefield is the investment by Xamax, a from the local growth fund for the West Yorkshire Plus branded clothing and sportswear specialist. With support transport fund and an additional £30 million per annum from the regional growth fund, through the locally through to 2034-35. With local contributions, the West managed business growth programme, it is developing a Yorkshire Plus transport fund will bring £1 billion to new production and showroom facility. Graham the improvement of inter-city and intra-city connectivity Thompson, the managing director, is driving forward and could include enhancements to rail and rapid transit the growth of his company and sees an exciting future, and more effective highways and bus networks. Other including creating more jobs and further building on programmes and projects that will be funded from the the portfolio of products offered. local growth fund include housing schemes and other developments in the Leeds city region, including Wakefield. Wakefield council was also awarded £8.1 million As Roger Marsh, chair of the Leeds city region LEP, from round 1 of the regional growth fund to regenerate said: four housing sites. This project will bring new homes to “This is a game-changing moment for the Leeds City Region.” the communities of south Wakefield, offering choice Those involved have worked closely with businesses and to local residents and making the communities vibrant partners to showcase the region’s immense potential to places to live in. The scheme is on track to create play a leading role in balancing the UK economy. 425 new construction jobs, having delivered 100 jobs to date. The projects are progressing well, and two of the We are committed to giving local areas like south-east four sites have started building already, with the take-up Wakefield both the funding and the freedom they need of new housing higher than anticipated. to maintain their leading position in the UK economy. I am a new Minister and I look forward to working with In the second round of the regional growth fund, the hon. Gentleman to ensure that we are doing that £1.4 million was awarded to build a roundabout close to work as effectively as possible. I thank him for securing Ferrybridge power station. The roundabout, now this debate, which has been helpful and has afforded me completed, has enabled the construction of a new multi-fuel the opportunity to mention some of the people he plant being developed by a joint venture between SSE describes in his constituency who are delivering for their and Wheelabrator Technologies Inc. The multi-fuel plant communities. I thank him for raising this matter with will create 50 operational jobs and about 300 construction me. I shall write to him on the green-belt issue, and if jobs during the first three years of its build. I congratulate there are any other asks that he or his constituents have these companies and businessmen and the local Wakefield of this Government or if there is any more that we can First economic partnership on working together to do, I would be very happy to discuss those matters with maximise development opportunities for local people. I him. understand that about 30 local companies are now Question put and agreed to. involved in the supply chain, and more opportunities will come from phase two of the plant, which is now in 9.32 pm development. House adjourned. 281WH 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Western Balkans 282WH

were dissatisfied and frustrated with the system. They Westminster Hall resorted to violence, and we can see where else that is happening in the world. Wednesday 10 September 2014 Next year marks an important year in Serbian history. I will not confine my comments to Serbia; I am just starting off with it. In 1915, the Serbian nation retreated. [ANNETTE BROOKE in the Chair] It did quite well initially against the forces of the Austro-Hungarian empire, but it was beaten back. Bulgaria joined the war and there was a pincer movement, so the Western Balkans Serbs had to retreat. They did not want to be occupied, Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting so the Serbian army, the Serbian Parliament, the Serbian be now adjourned.—(Damian Hinds.) King and the church—they even dug up some of their saints—moved in the middle of winter across the Albanian mountains and went on eventually, with massive sacrifice 9.30 am and massive numbers of deaths, to Corfu. There the Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con): British and French reclothed them and so forth and It is a delight, Mrs Brooke, to see you in the Chair helped get them back to the Salonika front, where they today. Coming back to Committee Room 10 reminds fought their way up. me of a few years ago, when I raised this same subject in That was an important moment in Serbian history. It a Westminster Hall debate. At that time, we were also in is interesting, in the context of the Balkans, that the this room. The then Minister for Europe was one Geoff Albanians allowed the Serbian army to come through Hoon. Some of the themes have moved on since then, and said that it must be unhindered. Although we but I will return to others. It is also a delight to see the sometimes hear of the rivalries today—I say “rivalries”, Minister. I know that this subject is not his area of but they obviously go past that in some respects—these expertise—the Minister for Europe is busy elsewhere—but things are not always as deep-seated as people think. as we are former colleagues at the Whips Office, he will remember my discussions on various subjects, which I have a particular interest in this issue and, as included the region we are talking about. Members will know, I am a natural retailer, so I should mention that I am helping with a play. The Foreign and Almost exactly 40 years ago, I started at London Commonwealth Office is also helping with it. The play, university studying Serbo-Croat language and literature, which will tour in the UK and Serbia, is about a British and so started my knowledge of and relationship with nurse called Flora Sandes, who went out as a nurse and the region. Today reminds me a little of my student ended up serving in the Serbian army. She was the only days, because, due to a whole load of work that has British woman who served on the front line as a woman, come in my constituency in the past couple of days, I although there might have been some who disguised have not prepared my essay properly. As so often in the themselves. past, I will try to wing it by bluffing my way through. After 40 years, I think I have a reasonable amount of The play will be about Flora, but also about a Serbian knowledge, but I have no set speech. I would have loved woman called Milunka Savic, and there will be a to have given the Minister an advance copy, but no such comparison between the two. Milunka is fascinating, copy exists. Anyway—here we go. because she was one of the top throwers of grenades. I The current fashion is for people to have a bucket list do not know whether she would be called a grenadier or of things they want to do. For me, it is a list of things I a bomber. The reason for her skill was that she was a want to get off my chest before I stand down from shepherd. She was so used to throwing stones to frighten Parliament at the next general election. The western away wolves and things, she could pinpoint grenades Balkans is an area that I feel strongly about, because it with remarkable accuracy. She was one of the top is of great interest and great importance to the European marksmen with grenades. situation. As we know, it was, sadly, one of the biggest The play is coming up, and one reason why I mention problems in Europe during the latter half of the it is that it is important to realise the historical link 20th century. between our nation and the Serbs in that period. We History in the Balkan area is very important. Here we were great allies, and that has continued, except for the are, 100 years after the start of the first world war—and latter half of the 20th century and the particular period we know that the trigger for that was the assassination when we had the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. Despite in Sarajevo of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand by Gavrilo that recent history, the Serbian national view is that Princip. Interestingly, even now that history has an they want to renew that alliance with Britain, and that impact; a lot of people are almost trying to rewrite is something we can do in encouraging their EU aspirations. history or analyse it. The Serbs feel that there is almost Another point on the Salonika front is that I recently an attempt to rewrite it as a Serbian movement when, in went to an exhibition at the School of Oriental and fact, Gavrilo Princip was a member of the Young African Studies, which was just next to my old college, Bosnia, or Mlada Bosna, movement. Members of his the School of Slavonic and East European Studies. team—it was not a very experienced team—included a There was an exhibition on Sikhs in the Indian army in Bosnian Muslim and others, so it was not just a Serbian the first world war and the large number of Muslims thing. who fought for the British—it was the British Indian We have to be careful when we remember such events. army—on the Salonika front. Many of them lost their In fact, there are echoes today, because all through what lives. We should highlight that the divides between was then the Austro-Hungarian empire were groups of nations and religions and everything else are not clear-cut. young people—mostly men and often students—who Sometimes, things are polarised in today’s world. 283WH Western Balkans10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Western Balkans 284WH

[Sir John Randall] blowing our trumpet and of not letting the Serbs and Bosnians understand how much we sympathise and Obviously, the history of close co-operation carried how much practical help we gave. on into the second world war. History must always be in There have been many instances throughout the our minds in the Balkan region. I am delighted to see country of individuals and organisations—not national two hon. Members from Northern Ireland here. That Governments and not even necessarily non-governmental region is another example of where we should never organisations—helping mutually and I found an interesting forget history, but that does not mean we have to be a case the other day. If the Minister for Europe had been slave to it. Northern Ireland is a good example of how here, he would have been particularly interested, because we can move on. Some of these regions with divides in it revolves around his old school. I have discovered that their communities can learn from the example of Northern Northwood prep, among other projects around the Ireland, and that is why I am particularly delighted to world including Africa and India through something see the two hon. Members. called the Francis Terry Foundation, has been helping The history is deeply rooted and for the Serbs it goes to build kindergartens and play areas in a couple of back a long way—to the mediaeval period. We all know villages—I think they are villages, but one must be about Kosovo and all that. There is a sense of being a careful—in the Nish area called Toponica and Matejevac. victim, which was further accentuated in the last part of The facilities are allowing people who may otherwise the 20th century. We must also be aware of some of the have had to move to the cities, which is a problem in terrible things that occurred in Europe in the latter half such areas, to have their kids looked after at home. The of the 20th century. Srebrenica, for example, is probably school has also been visited by the Crown Prince of the most obvious and highlighted of the appalling Serbia and, I think, will be making a trip to a concert in things that happened. I do not think that I will have Serbia. That is just one example. An advantage of the time during the remainder of my parliamentary career internet is that we can link schools and organisations to visit the area, but I hope to be able to, because one much more easily when compared with the old town- has to understand exactly what went on. twinning process, which was clunky and involved people Other things went on, however, and one side was going over there and all the related expenses. It is a great certainly not responsible for them all. There are no way to learn about other peoples. definite goodies and baddies in such situations; there are lots of both. I recently discovered that the Special Investigative Task Force under lead prosecutor John Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Clint Williamson has been examining the claims of The right hon. Gentleman said that he was bluffing his atrocities—I should perhaps say “alleged atrocities”, way through his speech, so I commend him, based on but I think we have got past that and that he said that the past 15 minutes, on perfecting the art. Does he agree there were atrocities—committed in Kosovo by alleged that many UK faith organisations also get involved members of the Kosovo Liberation Army. That has with offers of help and assistance to the Balkans, particularly gone a long way to helping people in the region realise through the internet? Given the extent of the deprivation, that it is not only the victors who say that everything particularly among young children in some areas, was done against them and that investigations will considerable help is being offered, and that should be happen for all concerned. promoted. The problem for so much of central and south-eastern Europe—we are seeing it even further east in Ukraine—lies Sir John Randall: I agree entirely with the hon. with realising that the countries are not homogenous. Gentleman. In fact, some years ago—as I became lost The peoples who live in those countries are from a wide into the Whips Office, some of the dates have passed me range of ethnic groupings. One village might speak by and have been put to one side, like all the memories I Serbian while the next might speak Slovak. That is what have of who did what to whom and when—I remember makes the whole thing so complicated and is a common being closely involved with a faith organisation that was theme when minorities and their rights are being sorted working in several areas of the Balkans. It still does out. tremendous work, because there is still incredible deprivation I want to move briefly on to the use of depleted among some Roma populations and in some rural uranium during bombing and the related health areas. consequences, which are always somewhere at the back Since being released from the Whips Office, human of Serb minds, and not only theirs. I do not think the trafficking and modern slavery have been of great interest issue has been properly investigated. In 1999, there was to me. In that context, I visited Albania, which was the a report by someone called Bakary Kante from the UN only country in the region that I had not visited. When I Environment Programme, but I am not sure whether it was a student, I would not have been allowed to go to has been properly published. We must get such things Albania, because I had a beard and in the days of Enver out into the open. Hoxha that might have made one appear to be an I am no expert on the south-west of England, but I orthodox priest or something, although I am not sure believe that the recent severe flooding did not greatly that I resembled such a priest in any other way. However, affect the East Devon constituency of the Minister—I I was encouraged, because I suppose that I listened over imagine that it was not very good, but it probably was the years to a lot of the propaganda about what was not appalling. However, Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina going on in Albania. It is a poor country, but it is in particular have experienced extreme flooding. We making efforts. However, modern slavery and human only heard a little about it, but I was delighted that trafficking must really be considered across the whole Britain, as part of a European-wide aid programme, did region. I say to all those countries that aspire to join the an awful lot to help. We are possibly victims of not EU, which may be some way off, that that is something 285WH Western Balkans10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Western Balkans 286WH on which they can really show leadership by trying to more that we can say that is where we are coming from, sort it out. Albania is doing what it can, but they all the better. I am not always simply being charitable; have a long way to go. there is a huge opportunity for British trade in the area. Kosovo is obviously probably the thorniest problem Unfortunately, some of the practices in some of those in the area, and some countries within the EU still have countries do not encourage British trade. In fact, those not recognised an independent Kosovo. The Serbs and who are in the diaspora tend to be the pioneers in the the Kosovans have some form of agreement. It will area. I commend an organisation, which I know quite never be far away from becoming a problem, but Baroness well: the Serbian City Club. Young professionals in the Ashton brought people together in a positive move, UK of Serbian origin are doing an awful lot to encourage which should be encouraged. I do not expect an answer people. today, as this is not the Minister’s area of responsibility, but he could perhaps look into a question for me. When David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate I last visited Kosovo a few years ago, people were still the right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. As he living in containers in some of the enclaves after being says, there is an opportunity in the area for business and displaced from their homes. I am not sure whether that investment. My understanding is that the Germans is the current situation, but I was appalled at the time have invested fairly heavily in the agri-foods sector. that people in Europe should still be living like that What more can we do to encourage British businesses after many years. Perhaps he could look into the matter. to invest there, and what conditions do we need to make Also, some sacred monuments were still having to be it feasible for them to do so? guarded by NATO troops, because, even though they are centuries old, they were seen as indicating that Sir John Randall: That is a good question. We have to Serbian culture had been on that territory, so I would think of ways to give confidence to UK businesses. welcome a note at some stage from his colleagues at the There have been examples of rather strange practices, Foreign Office on the current situation. such as someone who has signed up an agreement, only Macedonia, as I am sure people realise, suffers not to find that the mayor of the local town has changed only from similar problems, but from a problem that I and that that is no longer the case—company law is not find incredible in today’s world: an EU country is well recognised. Northern Ireland could have huge resisting things because it does not think that Macedonia agricultural possibilities in the Balkans. One of the should use the name “Macedonia”. Now that I have things that I was looking at with someone, which is still raised that in Parliament, I will get e-mails and hate possible, was the organic market and for us to import letters from Greek nationalists, as I did the last time organic. Given the nature of the situation in those that I mentioned it. I remember that my right hon. countries over the years, they did not get around to Friend the Prime Minister visited Macedonia when he putting all the fertilisers and other things down, so there was an Opposition shadow Minister. When he came is huge potential. There are other needs—for example, back, he wrote an article in The Guardian—one of his Serbia would have to get goods through Montenegro on favoured organs, I am sure—asking how people in to the coast overland—and such matters would need to Greece would like to referred to as living in the “former be sorted out, because a lot of food, especially fresh Ottoman province of Greece”. food, has to be got out quickly. That such objections go on these days is incredible, Bosnia and Herzegovina is not an area I know well but I am aware of the sensitivities. Greece thinks that now, although I used to know it well. That is one of the Macedonia, by having that name, has its sights on tragedies for me. When I was a student going around territory further down in Thrace and so forth. If we Yugoslavia, Bosnia and Herzegovina seemed to me to cannot sort out an agreement on a name in the EU, be the place where everyone got along together. There however, our chance of sorting out some of the finer was rivalry between Serbia and Croatia, and I could feel points is a little worrying. Macedonia still has huge the tension in Kosovo between the native Kosovan problems, not only between the Macedonians and the Albanians and the Serbs living there, but in Bosnia, in Macedonian Albanians, but with a large number of spite of the presence of all the different mixes, everyone other peoples there. seemed to get along. The complete and utter tragedy of what happened indicates that we are never far away Montenegro I used to know well. Members may from disaster—we should never take things for granted. know it still, because it has a beautiful coastline, although From what I understand, Bosnia still has a long way to it is not all coastline; a lot of it is harsh karst scenery go. As someone astutely observed to me, Dayton was a and a tough place to live. Montenegro got its independence, good peace agreement and ceasefire, but it is not a but has a huge problem with law and order. It also has a settlement for the country. That is a huge problem, but huge problem with smuggling and has a large amount one we have to deal with. of Russian investment, although perhaps the Russians are moving that to the Crimea at the moment, who I have certainly taken up enough time. I can see the knows, because Montenegro has EU aspirations and relief coming in from Ulster in the Chamber, as always— will be trying to untie slightly the close links that most of the Slavic countries in the area have with Russia. We David Simpson: Coalition! need to help, because what is going on in Montenegro is a bit of a blot on the whole process. Sir John Randall: We will talk about that later. Serbia I have spoken about, but I will return to it [Laughter.] I am demonstrating the strength of the briefly, because I feel that it is moving forward. A lot is Union. still to be done and the British and the EU can encourage As I might not have the opportunity to raise the the Serbs. We in the UK have a role to play, because of subject of the western Balkans again, certainly given the traditional alliance that we had with them. The the length of time I have left in my parliamentary 287WH Western Balkans10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Western Balkans 288WH

[Sir John Randall] are ripe for modernisation and new agricultural ideas. Jobs will come off the back of that, as well as self-sufficiency. career, may I say that I was delighted to see that We should aim to make that happen. Arminka Helic, a former special adviser to the now Even in the midst of its own internal crisis and the Leader of the House, has been elevated to the Lords? worsening global crises from Ukraine to Iraq, Europe She originates from Bosnia and knows much about the can ill afford to neglect the one region in which the EU area. I am sure that the House of Lords will hear a lot has assumed full leadership as a foreign and security of informed views of over the coming years. policy actor. Negative developments in the Balkans I thank Mr Speaker for giving me the opportunity of could reverse gains in the region, such as those made in the debate. Even when I am no longer in Parliament, I Serbia and Kosovo, increase instability in other countries will raise the subject of the Balkans, because like so on the EU’s immediate borders and further weaken many things—similar to the modern slavery issue, but Europe’s credibility and cohesion. As the right hon. going back a long way for me, 40 years—once it gets Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip said, the Balkans under your skin, however frustrating the Balkans is, it is are a vital region; the area is as important now as it was one of the most fascinating areas of Europe. We should historically and the concerns are just as great today. be delighted to have an opportunity to do what we can It should be acknowledged that the nations of the for it. western Balkans face significant economic difficulties that are not of their own making. Their relative distance 9.57 am from the EU’s largest and wealthiest markets and their proximity to Greece mean that they have felt the impact Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to of Europe’s economic crisis more than most, which is serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke, and to no doubt part of the reason for their enthusiasm about make a contribution to the debate. joining a group of economically friendly states. All Last week, when my hon. Friend the Member for member states have been hit hard by the recession, but Upper Bann (David Simpson) was in this Chamber, we have had one another to depend on, trade with and, in were the second largest party; today, we are equal some cases, even borrow from; there has been real first—numerically, there is a coalition today between deprivation in many parts of the Balkans, and putting the Conservative party and the Democratic Unionist food on the table has been a problem for many people. party. The Labour party is here in third place, but there Some people have been unable to do so: the Library we are, and that will probably change as well— information pack says that in some areas of the Balkans, up to 90% of the population are unable to get food on a Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): He regular basis. That is the reality for many people there. who is last shall be first. At the same time, there is some confidence, because many people in the Balkans felt that 2014 was a year in Jim Shannon: Absolutely. As the good book says, and which things were going to get better; in a way, they we adhere to it. have, although not really to the extent that people had I thank the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and hoped. We still hope that that will happen. The first aim South Ruislip (Sir John Randall) for securing this important should be to reduce the political risk factors involved in debate. Again, I am glad to have the opportunity to doing business in the region. The Balkan wars are a make a contribution. fading memory for most of us, but there has been little For many of us the Balkans is an area that we know in the way of real reconciliation. The different ethnic because of the war that took place there, or because we communities of Bosnia and Herzegovina continue to have had holidays there—in parts, it has become a live separate lives. Serbia has normalised relations with tourist destination. At the end of the day, we have an Kosovo, but does not really recognise it. Even Greece’s interest in it, because we want to see it succeed, its unresolved objection to describing the former Yugoslav people return to prosperity and an end to the conflict Republic of Macedonia as Macedonia damages the and wars. The right hon. Gentleman, in his introduction, politics of the region. The fight over words and the referred to the position there. In Northern Ireland, we historical issues are important. While those dividing have come through a fairly horrific war as well; the lines and hostilities remain, investment will look like a terrorist campaign left more than 3,000 dead. As a risk, rather than a sure thing. Those who want to invest country, we have moved forward, because we felt that need to be reassured by the people in the area that that was the way to do it. There had to be a partnership things are moving forward. Government, based on all parties. Perhaps there is a Countries in the region are already members of various lesson there for the Balkans—indeed there is—to which regional European groupings such as the Organisation the right hon. Gentleman referred. of the Black Sea Economic Co-operation, the Central The aim of the Berlin conference was to send a European Initiative and the Central European Free message of support for the Balkan countries’ European Trade Agreement. More importantly, their shared will ambitions and to bolster the promises that the European to become members of international organisations, such Union made to those countries in more self-confident as the EU, NATO or the Council of Europe, denotes days. Those promises now seem uncertain, particularly common political interests and similar attitudes towards as tensions and security concerns within the region the international environment. remain. There is a clear need to help the economies in While all that is happening, we have the Russian bear, those countries to create jobs—creating jobs will create in the shape of Putin, looking towards eastern states prosperity and, we hope, stability. My hon. Friend the and the Balkans, where Russia once had influence. It is Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) made a with some concern that we look from afar at Putin’s salient intervention on the agri-food industry. The Balkans expansionist policies and wonder where they will end. 289WH Western Balkans10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Western Balkans 290WH

The western Balkan countries have made significant my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and progress in improving regional security and moving South Ruislip (Sir John Randall) and partly because I towards EU integration, especially in the bilateral relations have just returned from Bosnia and Herzegovina. That between Serbia and Kosovo, internally in Bosnia and trip was my third visit since 2009. My right hon. Friend Herzegovina and with regard to the EU integration of said he did not have much experience of Bosnia and the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. The biggest Herzegovina; perhaps those three trips have given me a contribution to regional security co-operation has been little experience. Also, in the past I was a history teacher— the signing of the framework agreement between Serbia and not a bad one—so I can claim some knowledge and Kosovo, which launched the basis for peaceful and from that. regular communication between the two. That agreement I want to give hon. Members a flavour of those visits. should work as a benchmark for other regions in the I first went out in 2009, before the election, as part of a Balkans. It may only be small at the moment, but there project called Project Maja, set up by Baroness Warsi to is a foundation in place, which I believe could serve as a get politicians to go out to places and do some work marker for the future. there. We raised some money over here, working with Despite all the positive developments in regional another charity, the Fund for Refugees in Slovenia, security co-operation, there are still security challenges which is led by a remarkable lady who I think is well that require attention from all, and dealing with those known to the Minister—Lady Nott, the wife of Sir challenges needs to be the second aim for the region. We John Nott, the former Secretary of State for Defence. need to see advancements in the fight against organised She set up that charity, which is still going, and she still crime, for example: there are groups in the area that are works tirelessly to help mainly refugees from the conflict clearly real organised crime groups; it is not just what in Bosnia in the 1990s. She had incredible support from we see in the films. My colleague in the other place, Baroness Thatcher on the quiet, and the charity has Lord Morrow, has brought forward a Bill on human raised millions over the years to rebuild homes and trafficking for Northern Ireland, which I believe would villages that had been destroyed. set a precedent for the whole United Kingdom. My We raised money to help Lady Nott’s efforts to hon. Friends agree, and we have suggested to the UK rebuild two more houses up in the villages above Srebrenica. Government that they should look at that Bill as a I am sure hon. Members can imagine what it was like precedent for other measures for the United Kingdom. going to Srebrenica in 2009. I went again this year, and We all recognise, as Lord Morrow does, that human the divisions are still palpable. Hon. Members from trafficking is an issue we face. It is an issue in the Northern Ireland may know more about that than I do: Balkans and is part of the organised crime there. the only division I really know and understand is the Dealing with political extremism and radical structures one between Lancashire and Yorkshire—and long may is also crucial for the Balkans to achieve long-term it remain. We felt the tension on the streets when we security and stability. There has been a significant decline were living in Srebrenica. We went up into the hills to in ordinary crime in the western Balkans, but organised finish rebuilding these buildings using the money we crime and corruption—mainly drug trafficking, money had raised with the help of Lady Nott. I never managed laundering and human trafficking—are still present to congratulate her formally on being awarded the OBE and have a great impact, facilitated by poor law enforcement. in 2013, which was some recognition for the tireless My hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry work she has undertaken in that region. (Mr Campbell) mentioned the work of faith groups. We were stood in this village with a lady—we had The Minister and I have talked about that on many managed to raise some money to help repair her house—in occasions—I am pleased to see him in his place today, this incredibly beautiful country, almost like Switzerland because I know his response will be helpful—and he up in the hills. We asked her why she had come back. knows about the good work the faith groups in the area This lady had lost three sons, a husband and two of her do. I am aware of it from not just a spiritual but a brothers-in-law. They were all killed. She was a Bosniak—a practical point of view: those church groups help people Bosnian Muslim—and had had to flee. Her house had to realise their ambitions and potential, and do fantastic been burned down. She came back with her daughter-in-law work. and her little grandchild. That was all that was left of In conclusion, to reduce the risk of escalating outbursts her family. of violence, the international community’s engagement This lady said—through a translator, of course, and a and presence in the region continue to be necessary. lot more was perhaps lost in the translation—“They Accountability, currently the weakest element in security will not win” and that they had come back for the sake sector governance in the western Balkan countries, needs of the family who were killed. We could see Serbia—we further support. could almost touch it across the valley—yet they had I have already asked your permission to leave early, come back with the immense support of the charity set Mrs Brooke, as I have a meeting with the Thalidomide up by Lady Nott. Trust. I have spoken to the Minister and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip as well. If I Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I thank leave at about 10.25 am, I hope you know that I will the hon. Gentleman for giving way and congratulate the have done so for no other reason than that I have to be right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir somewhere else. John Randall) on introducing the debate. I know something of the feeling that has just been expressed: that we will 10.7 am not allow them to win. That has carried many people in Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I Northern Ireland through very difficult days with the am sorry I did not put in a note to ask to speak, Mrs IRA. However, the scars of war last a very long time. Brooke: I was inspired to speak partly by the speech of With war come deprivation, poverty, grief and division. 291WH Western Balkans10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Western Balkans 292WH

[Dr William McCrea] aid should stop and that we should forget about them. My right hon. Friend is exactly right. The point goes How does the hon. Gentleman feel the international back to what I said to the hon. Member for South community has helped the area he is speaking about to Antrim (Dr McCrea): the human contact will be a great heal those scars of war? help to push past the history. Eric Ollerenshaw: The people in that particular incident My right hon. Friend spoke about the history. I want are aware of the international community and of the to give an anecdote from my first trip in 2009. As an Dayton agreement, which I will say something about. ex-history teacher, I spent the whole trip trying to However, it is even more important for them to see explain about the Habsburg empire. I will not go into British politicians, such as ourselves. I was out there the history curriculum, but a really good thing about with my hon. Friends the Members for Thurrock (Jackie this Government is that we are getting back to a proper Doyle-Price) and for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), history curriculum, so people might know what the who is now a Minister in the Foreign Office. He laid out Habsburg empire was. That is a side issue. a football pitch in this village—and, of course, given his We visited Sarajevo and went to the spot where the military training, was ordering the rest of us around, archduke and his wife were assassinated. We then went but that is another story. to the biggest mosque in the city to meet the Grand We felt that it was at least something tangible for Mufti, the head of the Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina. those people to see politicians from what they regard as One sometimes wishes we had a Grand Mufti in Britain; the other end of the world trying to help them, aside that might help in certain senses. He was recognised as from the high-ranking meetings that had gone on, the the leading figure among Muslims. The mosque was in treaties and all the rest of it. I do not know whether that the Ottoman style, and we sat on very low benches. The is the case in Northern Ireland. The human dimension Grand Mufti came in; he clearly was the Grand Mufti and human contact are one of the greatest touchstones. from everything he was wearing: he looked like something We were from mixed religions, of course. from an Ottoman court, a great man. He first words, in The lady we met told us that people had grown up in English—remember this was 2009—were, “This mosque these villages as a mix of Orthodox Serbs, Catholic is the Emperor’s mosque. It was restored by the Emperor Croats and Bosniak Muslims. They had grown up and Franz Joseph. The last time Bosnia and Herzegovina played together. They had gone to church or to mosque was run properly was by the Habsburgs.” We could see on high days and holidays. This terrible thing then the shades of the history that my right hon. Friend happened that divided them. Srebrenica is actually in talked about pouring down on us. Republika Srpska, which is part of Bosnia. I have been I went back in 2011, again as part of Project Maja, to to Bosnia three times and I still find it really difficult to help redo a special needs school. That was alongside my work out how that country is managed politically. hon. Friends the Members for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew), One of the points I want to make is that the Dayton and Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). We were agreement ended the bloodshed, but it is as though working alongside Bosnian politicians, trying to help Bosnia and Herzegovina is frozen in time and cannot out in a special needs school, because that school made move forward. The international community has huge no distinction about religion. That was a real opportunity issues to consider in Syria, which we are about to debate to demonstrate something. in the Chamber, and in the east, but we cannot forget, as Finally, I went out this year with my hon. Friends the my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and Members for Redditch (Karen Lumley) for High Peak South Ruislip said in his introduction, that we are (Andrew Bingham) for South Basildon and East Thurrock talking now about where the spark that started the first (Stephen Metcalfe) and for Romsey and Southampton world war happened. We still have unreconciled issues. North (Caroline Nokes), and also with a Member of Although there is no fighting going on, we should not the House of Lords, the Earl of Courtown. I remember forget that there is a need to move Bosnia and Herzegovina a remarkable situation. We were discussing with Bosnian on. As my right hon. Friend mentioned, Serbia may politicians how there had been no movement from join the European Community, as Croatia has. That Dayton and that they were stuck in a tripartite situation. would be a great thing. However, to leave Bosnia and The chairman of the Bosnian party explained how one Herzegovina out when they regard themselves as the of the issues they had was trying to move on from what victims seems to me to be a dangerous miscalculation. was essentially a feudal system. The Earl of Courtown said that his situation was, of course, feudal as well. The Sir John Randall: My hon. Friend is making a very chairman replied that his was also because he was an powerful speech. I will have to talk to him more about hereditary Bey from the days of the Ottoman empire. Bosnia after the debate. Although in some respects I am Nothing much changes. not the greatest fan of the EU for ourselves, these I have been to Srebrenica three times to see the countries’ aspiration to get into the EU at some stage— memorial and have taken new Members to it. One of although it is some way off—will drive them together. my proudest moments in this Parliament was in July They could ultimately be a Balkan bloc in the EU, two years ago, when the British Government became which could be a uniting factor. the first Government in Europe to have a solemn memorial Eric Ollerenshaw: My right hon. Friend is exactly at Lancaster House in recognition of the Srebrenica right. He mentioned the floods. We saw the evidence of massacre. That memorial was held for the second time the floods. That is another thing we should not forget: last year. there are still thousands of people in Bosnia and On my recent visit, we had a long meeting with the Herzegovina, and in Serbia, without a roof over their International Commission on Missing Persons, which, heads. The fact that the floods have gone away and are if any good can come out of such terrible things, is not on the television, as it were, does not mean that the perhaps a good, because of the training it has provided 293WH Western Balkans10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Western Balkans 294WH in Bosnia in finding and tracing families and remains There were children there; we could not be told where through DNA. It should not be forgotten that the they had come from for reasons of legal protection, but graves of many people who were massacred were dug clearly the trade was moving through. up, and the bones scattered, in a deliberate attempt to prevent families from being traced. The commission has Sir John Randall: I did not want to imply that it was much support, including that of Britain—and long may only Albania that had those problems. It is the whole that continue. Its techniques are now being used across area. Some places are destinations, some are transit the world. areas, and some are where the victims come from, but I want in particular to express my respect for Adam the whole region is involved. Boys, who has been in the region for 20 years as a commission director; I think he has said that this will be Eric Ollerenshaw: I understand that. There are boundaries his last year before returning. He has done incredible that to some are not boundaries—a Croat in Bosnia can work. It is funny to discover what a small world it is: enter Croatia and a Serb in Bosnia Herzegovina can when I first met him three years ago he told me that as a enter Serbia, and so on. The issue that I want to raise is boy he spent all his summer holidays in Fleetwood, that the Bosniak population, essentially a Muslim which is clearly a preparation for becoming a director of population, has nowhere else. They are European Muslims. the International Commission on Missing Persons in In one sense, given the way that the world is and the way Bosnia and Herzegovina. communities are behaving, they are the Muslim group— European Muslims who have been Muslim for hundreds Our group went to a room where there were more of years—that should be a force in Europe, showing than 1,000 separate bags of remains—bones—whose that there is a form of moderate Islam, which works. DNA was still being tracked. I must admit that I had not thought about this before, but it was explained to us I have given a personal account of three visits to part how originally an attempt was made to trace people of the Balkans. I have only once been to the Serbian using their clothing; however, clothing can be misinterpreted, side, to Belgrade. I suppose that other hon. Members and it rots, in time. Using DNA requires the DNA of who have made more such trips than I have will have felt living family members, but we can imagine that if someone as I did before flying home, and wondered how such has survived a massacre, and then some official wants things could happen in such an incredibly beautiful their DNA, they will be extremely suspicious. It has country. That is the thought that leads us on. taken years to convince families that it may be a way of I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for tracing people. Uxbridge and South Ruislip for raising the issue. Perhaps, We went to Srebrenica and laid flowers—that small although the western Balkans are absent from television but important thing that humans do as a form of screens, this debate will highlight the huge issues that recognition. We talked to an old lady there, from Mothers remain for our Government and other European of Srebrenica. She said that at least this year she had Governments to deal with, so that they do not forget. something of her 14-year-old son, who had been lost. She had two bones that had been found, which were 10.26 am traceable as his, and she said that at least she had been able to have a burial. Bosnia and Herzegovina have left Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): A the television screens, and the events may even be taught Tory MP’s retirement is not always a moment for sadness as part of modern history—they will be seen as something on the Labour Benches, but I feel that the House will be that happened. However, the situation has not, in fact, a little poorer for the departure of the right hon. Member moved on a great deal. It is perhaps not a priority for for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall), the international community, and that is worrying and partly because of his good sense of humour, but also—in dangerous for the long term. today’s context—because of his knowledge of and interest in the western Balkans. I congratulate him, in the usual The principal reason for our visit this year was, way, on securing the debate and on the way he introduced following what the previous Foreign Secretary did to the subject, despite constituency pressures. raise sexual violence in war up the agenda, to assist Medica Zenica—in the town of Zenica. The charity was I had the privilege of visiting Sarajevo, Banja Luka created after the war to help women scarred by sexual and Kosovo as an International Development Minister violence in the war, as well as children who resulted in the previous Government—in 2004, I believe. I welcome from that sexual violence. We had raised some money the opportunity to return to some of the issues that I for an extension to the charity, and being humble Members looked at then and to join other Members in assessing of Parliament we were put to work painting walls. That the progress, or lack of it, since that time. was some help, but the real help was perhaps in raising The right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South the money and highlighting the charity. Ruislip referred in passing to depleted uranium, and I shall be interested to hear the Minister’s response. His We spent two days doing that work. The children of comments reminded me of one element of my visit 10 the sexual violence that happened are now in their 20s. years ago, which was to consider the funding that the What is a mother to say to their son or daughter about Department for International Development was giving what happened and where they came from—in a society to the work of de-mining charities. I suspect that there where religious background is critical? I pay tribute to is still a huge amount of unexploded ordnance in the the continued work of Medica Zenica. Balkans as a result of the recent conflicts. It would be My right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and helpful to hear from the Minister, although perhaps not South Ruislip spoke about travelling in Albania. During now, about the matter that the right hon. Gentleman our visit we were told that one of the next big things to raised and the more general one of how Britain and the deal with was the trafficking across Bosnia and Herzegovina. EU might continue to help deal with unexploded ordnance. 295WH Western Balkans10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Western Balkans 296WH

[Mr Gareth Thomas] EU developing? Despite the current challenges they all face, are all the western Balkan countries potential The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) candidates for accession to the EU in due course? made an interesting speech and dwelt at one point on I turn to individual countries. Kosovo is particularly the impact of organised crime and human trafficking in poor economically compared with others in the region, the western Balkans, touching on the potential impact with more than half the population living in poverty. on our shores. It would be helpful to hear more from The tensions between the ethnic Serb minority and the the Minister about how UK Government resources are Albanian majority are still very evident. The EU brokered helping to tackle the continued threat to our borders an important deal in 2013 in an effort to normalise from organised crime in the western Balkans. relations between the two communities, with ethnic As one history teacher to another, I enjoyed the Serbs in northern Kosovo having their own police and speech of the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood appeal court, but they are now voting for the same local (Eric Ollerenshaw). He gave a powerful account of the government bodies as Albanians. It would be helpful to terrible trauma of the mother who had only just received hear the Minister’s assessment of how those new a small part of the remains of her 14-year-old son. We arrangements are working on the ground. remember not only those who lost their lives in the I understand that Kosovo possesses considerable mineral conflict, but those families still living who do not know resources, but agriculture is still its main economic what happened to some of their missing relatives, or activity. It would be good to hear whether the Minister have had no remains returned to them and therefore is aware of any efforts, perhaps encouraged by the EU have no closure. That is extremely important. or specific financial institutions, such as the World The 1990s, as hon. Members recognise, saw the violent Bank, to encourage development of those resources. break-up of former Yugoslavia. As we have touched on, Serbia began accession talks with the EU in January. the scars from those conflicts still run very deep in much Given its recent history, Serbia’s progress has been of the western Balkans. The right hon. Member for remarkable and its political leaders deserve praise for Uxbridge and South Ruislip and the hon. Member that progress. It became a stand-alone, sovereign republic Lancaster and Fleetwood alluded to the massacre in only in the summer of 2006 after Montenegro voted for Srebrenica, which stands out as probably one of the independence from the post-Milosevic union of Serbia worst moments of a truly dreadful period in the region’s and Montenegro. The evolution of its relationship with history. Kosovo has been particularly challenging for the Serbian The period since then has seen a gradual return to people and even now, despite the EU-brokered deal basic political stability, but the recent financial crisis with Kosovo, Serbia insists that it does not recognise its and the economic traumas that that ushered in have had former province’s independence. a big impact on the lives of many people in the region. There has been the challenge of rounding up the Political and economic stability and, crucially, better former senior political and military figures from Serbia’s governance matter very much in the western Balkans most brutal past to face justice in The Hague, a crucial and further conflict would inevitably have an impact and important part of Serbia’s recent journey. How here in the UK. The central point made by the right does the Minister view the EU’s talks with Serbia, and hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip that the when might accession take place? One thing that Ministers, House must continue to pay attention to events in that Back Benchers and the Opposition can do is to visit part of Europe’s back garden was extremely well made. political leaders in the western Balkans and encourage The hon. Member for Strangford alluded to the reform. It would be good to hear whether Ministers considerable economic challenges. Unemployment, have visited Serbia recently to continue to encourage especially youth unemployment, remains extremely high progress towards EU accession. throughout the western Balkans, while levels of economic Albania is one of the poorest countries in Europe. growth are low at best, and organised crime and corruption Unemployment remains high at 13%, and poor quality still have too strong a hold. infrastructure and corruption continue to deter significant Croatia joined the European Union recently and foreign investment. Transparency International says that membership remains a powerful attraction for other Albania remains the most corrupt country in Europe. countries in the region, helping to incentivise reform. Clearly, sorting out that corruption and tackling organised Important as Britain’s direct relationship is with each crime remain two of the principal elements for Albania’s individual country and their political leaders in the future progress. I understand that those two issues had western Balkans, it is perhaps their relationship with the originally motivated in part the Government’s opposition European Union that matters most in geopolitical terms, to Albania’s candidature for EU membership. It would although, as the hon. Member for Strangford said, be helpful to hear from the Minister specifically what Russia remains a powerful near neighbour. changed the Government’s mind in June. If the Minister does nothing else in response to my If media reports are to be believed, the Prime Minister comments, I hope he will dwell on how he sees the has made it clear that any future accessions will have to relationship between the European Union and the western be subject to new transitional controls. It would be Balkans developing. For example, how will crucial finance helpful to hear from the Minister a little more about the institutions, such as the European Bank for Reconstruction Government’s thinking about the nature of those new and Development or the European Investment Bank transitional controls that might be imposed on Albania develop their role in the region? What are the priorities as part of any accession agreement. for European neighbourhood budget funding for the Bosnia and Herzegovina faces a particularly challenging region? How does the Minister see the political relationship future, as the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood between the countries of the western Balkans and the and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South 297WH Western Balkans10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Western Balkans 298WH

Ruislip acknowledged, with ongoing political instability as we commemorated the centenary of the outbreak of and huge economic challenges, coupled with the remaining the first world war. The fact that, in effect, the first shots deep ethnic divides. There is 40% unemployment at the of the war rang out in Sarajevo, as we all know, reminds moment, and almost 60% unemployment among the us why the stability and security of that region are so young. Corruption is a huge issue and includes accusations important to our country and the world. of a series of privatisation scams that are holding back My right hon. Friend has given valuable support to economic development the commemoration activity. He alluded to the role The right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South played by Flora Sandes, Britain’s pioneering combatant Ruislip referred to the Dayton peace agreement, which in the war, and I much enjoyed the reasons he gave for was signed in Ohio in 1995. It forced the two sides in the the throwing of grenades, from the previous training as Bosnian war to form a single country, but with two sets a shepherd. I am particularly pleased that my Department of state institutions, laws and Parliaments, as well as a will be involved in touring the play, which I believe is federal Government. Efforts to reform that system of coming over to the UK. government—it took almost 16 months to produce a federal Government after the last election—have not The hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas), been successful, and resentment at the state of politics who speaks for the Opposition, mentioned Srebrenica, in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the economy has produced as did others. How could we debate the western Balkans considerable anger with demonstrations in February, without mentioning it? I hope that my right hon. Friend, talk of a Bosnian spring and the leadership of the when he has more time, will travel to Srebrenica. My ethnic Serbs in the Republika Srpska arguing for hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood independence from Bosnia. How does the Minister see (Eric Ollerenshaw), again, in a very inspiring and the future for Bosnia and what further efforts does he knowledgeable speech, alluded to the expertise and expect from, for example, the EU—perhaps the new knowledge that he had gained from travelling there on a High Representative—to help to broker a more sustainable number of occasions. He also mentioned the Fund for political settlement in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Refugees in Slovenia—of which I still, I should declare, Macedonia has emerged, as the right hon. Gentleman remain a trustee—and the work of the founder of the suggested, from a particularly difficult year in 2001, fund, Lady Nott, who he said I know well. Actually, I with agreement recently that it should become a candidate know Lady Nott so well that she woke me up this for EU membership. Again, corruption remains a challenge morning—before the salacious gossip mongers and writers and political tensions remain too, following elections in get too excited about that, I should also confess that she April. An assessment of Macedonia’s political situation is, in fact, my mother-in-law. She has done a remarkable and how quickly progress towards EU accession might job and continues to do so. happen would be welcome from the Minister. I also pay tribute to the fact that we now recognise In summary, the western Balkans remain a politically the charity Remembering Srebrenica and we are doing fragile and very economically challenged part of Europe’s more, on an annual basis, to remember the horrors that neighbourhood, and it is incumbent on the UK to play went on. The Fund for Refugees still does incredibly a role in continuing to encourage an easing of those good work without any Government resource in rebuilding political tensions and economic progress. I look forward the shattered communities around Srebrenica. It is all to hearing from the Minister how he sees the UK’s role privately funded. I have never quite understood why we in doing exactly that. do not fund it, but I am not allowed to go down that road really. I urge the shadow Minister and, indeed, my 10.40 am right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip, when they go to Srebrenica, to see some of the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth work that the fund has done in trying to plant orchards Office (Mr Hugo Swire): I congratulate my right hon. and rebuild communities, very often without men, because Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip the men are simply not there. It has done a remarkable (Sir John Randall) on securing the debate. As he said, job and I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe would Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood for raising it, as I have been delighted to respond, but he is currently know he has been a stalwart supporter of it. travelling on ministerial duties. It is therefore my pleasure to respond on behalf of the Government. My hon. Friend mentioned the issue of moderate I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Muslims in that part of the world, which is a key point. Uxbridge and South Ruislip for his long-term interest I think that there is evidence of some radicalisation now in and contribution to our relations with the western taking place, and that needs to be looked at and stamped Balkans. I thank the all-party parliamentary groups for out very quickly indeed. their important role in building links with the region. The need for stability in the western Balkans remains He said that he had not prepared a speech; clearly, he a crucial priority today. The UK has, for two decades, did not need to. Perhaps if more Members spoke from been a providing a significant contribution to that, knowledge and from the heart, as he did this morning, along with our NATO and EU allies. We demonstrated rather than just reading out prepared scripts, this place our commitment with our swift response to the devastating would be all the better for it. He is steeped in the floods in Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina earlier Serbo-Croat language and literature and knows what he this year. The UK provided the team leader for the is talking about, which can, in this place, be both EU-wide civil protection response, other experts for the dangerous and place him in an almost unique position. broader EU effort and emergency equipment, including The UK’s relationship with the western Balkans is radios and vehicles. In addition, at the recent international long and deep, as we have heard from both sides of the donors’ conference, the UK pledged an initial £2 million House. We reflected on that relationship this summer, bilaterally for reconstruction work—the sort of work 299WH Western Balkans10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Western Balkans 300WH

[Mr Hugo Swire] general response. It would be helpful to have a little more specific detail on what the Government are proposing that the hon. Member for Harrow West will be familiar to talk about with our European colleagues. with from his time as a Minister of State in the Department for International Development. Mr Swire: Of course, the details will be unrolled as It is, however, sadly too soon to say that the western we begin our negotiations, but if we can bank it, as a Balkans have achieved the irreversible stability and starting point, that the Opposition will agree in principle prosperity that the people of the region deserve. Many that new transitional controls must be in place for any challenges remain—we have heard about them this new member state to join the EU, that will be something morning—from corruption, weak governance and shaky we can take to Europe. institutions to a lack of the rule of law in some places. Security is not yet entrenched, and, as is obvious from Sir John Randall: Something that we can discuss and the nationalist rhetoric and Republika Srpska’s secessionist that I often hear about is that businesses and important aspirations in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that remains people coming over still have problems getting visas. the case there. Those are their challenges but our concerns. Although I would be absolutely onside with the The security and stability of the Balkans and the rest of arrangements that we hope to have when new countries Europe are interdependent. Neither containment nor come into the EU, the existing ones on visas should be neglect are the answer. That is why we are proactive in smartened up a bit; otherwise it does not say much to helping the Governments in the region to try to tackle those important people we are trying to get to come those issues through political and economic reform. over. The reason may be cultural; it may be sporting; it The hon. Gentleman mentioned the EU. The EU and is certainly business; and there is a problem. NATO accession processes are the best means to drive that reform and are the only source, frankly, of long-term Mr Swire: Indeed. This issue is raised with us across stability in the region. Although we have seen significant the Department from all parts of the world; it is not progress in the past few years, not least in Croatia’s unique to the western Balkans. I think that, on the accession to the EU in 2013, the integration of the whole, our visa processes are improving. region into Euro-Atlantic structures remains unfinished. There is work to be done. The UK is committed to Against the background that I have set out, I welcome supporting the further enlargement of the EU with all the start of EU accession negotiations with Serbia the western Balkans, on the basis of firm but fair earlier this year. Much has been achieved during the conditionality. past 15 years, but there is much left to do. The UK supports Serbia’s reforms and, in particular, its media The hon. Gentleman talked about future legislation reform. Progress has been made in Serbia-Kosovo relations, to do with population changes, which is a very topical but there remain major challenges, not least in the subject here in the United Kingdom at the moment. economic sphere and in relations with its neighbours. The conditionality that I referred to must also help ensure that future enlargements will not lead to mass I pay tribute to the courageous steps taken by both migrations. It is clear that transitional controls on free Serbia and Kosovo to improve their relationship. The movement for future enlargements cannot be done, as agreement between the two countries in April 2013 was was done in the past. We want to start a debate in the an historic moment for reconciliation. Both sides must EU about what new arrangements might look like, but now ensure, though, that the agreement is not just they must be robust and command public confidence. written on paper but turned into practice, so that it can lead to the full normalisation of relations through the EU-facilitated dialogue. Mr Thomas: Will the Minister set out what he or the My right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and Government see those new transitional arrangements South Ruislip, who sponsored this debate, asked in looking like? I appreciate that he wants a debate, but to relation to Kosovo what had been done to address the have a debate, one needs to have an initial idea. What is situation of displaced Serbs, including those still living the Government’s idea? in containers. We very much agree that that is an important issue, both from a humanitarian point of Mr Swire: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister view and for long-term reconciliation. This Government said that he will not agree to any new member state remain the biggest bilateral donor supporting the Kosovo joining the EU until new transitional controls are in Serbs. I will write to my right hon. Friend about the place, and that would represent something new and specific issue that he raised about whether sacred important. We have worked hard with our European monuments in Kosovo are still being guarded. That, of partners to ensure that the previous weaknesses of the course, is a subject close to my heart. We will find out enlargement processes are addressed with rigorous and what the latest on that is and write to him. early action on rule of law failures. We will sustain and Before I move on properly to Kosovo, I want to intensify our work to ensure that the principle of freedom return briefly to Serbia. We must encourage Serbia of movement is not abused. I hope that, in that work to continue to play an increasingly positive role in the and with that change, we will get the support of Her region, and I urge Belgrade to do more, particularly Majesty’s loyal Opposition. when it serves as chair of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe next year. That is a real Mr Thomas: We would be very interested in supporting opportunity for it. We strongly urge Serbia to align more the Government, but we would like to know what they closely with EU member states on key foreign policy issues, are proposing. The Minister has given—I say this gently, especially the one that is now very pregnant: relations as this has been a very good debate up to now—a rather with Russia and the whole situation in Ukraine. 301WH Western Balkans10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Western Balkans 302WH

I shall revert now to Kosovo. The shadow Minister The issues to which I referred have an impact on the asked about Kosovo and the EU. We hope that Kosovo UK, and we are a leading supporter of Albania’s efforts will also start on its own EU path shortly, with the to combat them. For example, we have signed signature of a stabilisation and association agreement. memorandums of understanding with Albania on That will allow the EU to intensify discussions on information sharing, and in July of this year our embassy reforms, so helping to build a Kosovo with a prosperous in Tirana funded a border police processing and debriefing future for all its communities and minorities. In the facility. That doubled capacity at Tirana airport for meantime, we will encourage Kosovo to make progress returns of failed asylum seekers and other irregular on the normalisation of its relationship with Serbia. migrants, and it sends a clear message that the UK is In this tour d’horizon of the region, I now move serious about cutting back on illegal migration from effortlessly across to Montenegro. I welcome the recent Albania. efforts in Montenegro—for example, in aligning itself Although there is much progress in the western Balkans, with EU positions on Ukraine, despite significant pressure we must ensure that the whole region is moving forward, from Russia. Montenegro, like Serbia, has responded and worryingly that cannot be said at the moment of positively to the incentives of the EU enlargement plan, Bosnia and Herzegovina. The country faces constitutional and we are encouraged by the progress being made as paralysis and ethnic division through a lack of reforms part of the EU accession process. However, let us be in and economic stagnation. Bosnia’s politicians owe it to no doubt. There remain many challenges—in particular, their people to provide jobs and prosperity. Instead, progressing Montenegro’s work against organised crime they keep them hostage to nationalist rhetoric, which is and corruption—but we commend the strong progress a cover for their failure to meet ordinary citizens’aspirations. that it is making towards joining NATO. Last week’s In addition, the daily challenges to Bosnia’s sovereignty successful NATO summit in Wales confirmed our intention by the openly secessionist leadership in the entity of to initiate focused and intensified talks. Republika Srpska are on the increase. We are clear: the I come now to Albania. I have always been rather redrawing of borders in the western Balkans is finished, fascinated by Albania since I came across a history of so we urge political leaders there to respond fully to the Albania written by—I do not know whether he was a EU’s offer of support and to heed legitimate calls from kinsman of mine—J. Swire, a big red book, which I the Bosnian population. The upcoming elections in have yet to read. In fact, I am meant to be lending it to Bosnia and Herzegovina will be an important opportunity the former high commissioner to Australia, who has for those voices to be heard. now gone to Rome and who looks after Albania. I The United Kingdom stands ready, with our EU promised that I would lend him the book. J. Swire went partners, to support the process. Our contribution to out to Albania, I think, as a tutor—to a young King Bosnia’s stability already provides foundations for the Zog, I should imagine. Albania has always held a fascination country to build on. We play a significant role in the for me, and I am pleased to say that Albania, too, is EUFOR peacekeeping mission in Bosnia, increasing making progress now. The new Government are serious UK troop numbers this year in response to violent about strengthening the rule of law, with a major plan protests in February. to tackle organised crime, corruption and judicial reform. We also urge further reforms on Macedonia. We In the first half of 2014, there were major police operations continue to be strong supporters of Macedonia’s EU against drugs and a 70% increase in arrests for human and NATO future, but the country must take urgent, trafficking. decisive action to address growing shortcomings in its I think that I am right in saying that my right hon. democratic institutions and processes, judicial independence Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip has and media freedom. We continue to encourage both just been to Albania— sides to work on the issue of the name. In summary, some western Balkan countries are Sir John Randall indicated assent. successfully rising to the many challenges that they face, but others are lagging behind and must do more to Mr Swire: That was with our friend and former ensure that the whole region can move forward together. colleague, Anthony Steen, who has done so much to We want a strong and flourishing region on the EU’s help the Government on human trafficking. Some of doorstep, not one that fuels crime, corruption or trafficking the Northern Irish MPs spoke earlier about what is or is a source of instability and insecurity. Our national going on in Northern Ireland now, and I was pleased, interest, historical links with the region and long relationship when I was a Northern Ireland Minister, to take Anthony are there to be built on, and we are determined to do Steen over to Northern Ireland, where an all-party that. group on trafficking was set up at Stormont. I pay I am genuinely sorry to be losing my right hon. tribute to the work that he continues to do. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip as a colleague at the next general election. As he said, we Sir John Randall: May I give a little plug for the fact served together in the Whips Office. Parliament will lose that we are still trying to get human trafficking groups a valuable Member, but perhaps Parliament’s loss will set up around Europe and are always on the lookout for be Randall of Uxbridge’s gain. I thank him again. I some funding from the Foreign Office? commend the interest and work on both sides of the House, but particularly that done by my right hon. Mr Swire: A point well made. Friend in helping to strengthen those links. 303WH 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Discretionary Social Fund (Redcar 304WH and Cleveland) Discretionary Social Fund (Redcar assess need in the area. I would be interested to know, if and Cleveland) the Minister has comparable figures, what the spend was in 2012-13, which led to the DWP’s assessment. Redcar and Cleveland borough council, having received 10.59 am responsibility for the discretionary social fund, reacted in a constructive fashion and put together a comprehensive Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): It is a great pleasure to policy document. I have to say, however, that that serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. I rise to document went way beyond the definitions that I have speak about a local issue: the discretionary social fund mentioned of what the money was for, and it contained of Redcar and Cleveland borough council. I represent a a huge number of potential exclusions. Although I corner of Yorkshire that has had mixed fortunes over understand the need for controls and the avoidance of the past few years. We have had a steep decline in unnecessary claims on the fund, the policy document employment in traditional industries over the past couple seemed to be more about setting out circumstances in of decades, which has led to some real economic challenges. which the money could not be given out rather than The restart of the steelworks in 2012 has helped to those in which it could. reverse the fortunes of the region, and with Government The council has established an online application support there has been further improvement since then, system, which raises concerns about exclusion, either with unemployment falling by 22% in the past year in because of digital access or literacy. We must remember my constituency. that we are dealing with those who are in crisis and My constituency remains 33rd out of 650 for need. They may not have access to online equipment, or unemployment, however, so there are some real challenges. they may not be able to use it. I would be interested in It contains real pockets of deprivation: South Bank and the Minister’s comments on the application process, Grangetown wards are among the most deprived in the because I know that the DWP is moving in that direction. whole country, and 80% of pupils at Grangetown primary The council also established a policy that they would school receive free school meals. I am particularly concerned not make cash payments, to avoid the risk of discretionary to ensure that any help the Government can give on the social fund payments being spent on drugs, alcohol, social side is well targeted and reaches the people who tobacco or other things that would be unnecessary in a need it. crisis situation. Under the previous Government, the Department for What actually happened? In 2013-14, the council Work and Pensions administered the discretionary social received 2,100 applications for the fund and it made fund. That continued until the end of March 2013, and awards in 195 cases, so less than 10% of applications on 1 April 2013 responsibility for the social fund passed were awarded. In fairness, the large number of unsuccessful to local councils. Until that date, I cannot remember applications—more than 1,900—includes those who having any case work to do with the social fund. Clearly, were referred onward to the DWP because of the interface people have needs, but the DWP seemed to be able to question that I have mentioned, so not all were complete deal with cases on a basis that the people involved rejections. Against the original allowance of £764,000, found acceptable. It is worth remembering that under the spend in 2013-14 was £256,000, so more than £500,000 the previous Government, the DWP did not have the of the money given to the council was not actually power to refer people to food banks and other agencies. spent. I do not have a breakdown of the £256,000, but I am pleased that this Government have changed that, assuming that the council spent more or less what was because if people need help, they should get the referrals budgeted on administration, and I have no reason to that they need. think that that was not the case, the actual assistance Councils assumed responsibility for the discretionary given must have been some £120,000 out of the £631,000 social fund. Redcar and Cleveland borough council’s that was allowed. That would mean that less than 20% cabinet papers contained a short description of the of the money was given out. I also know that the total purpose of the fund: amount spent included money for section 17 children’s “To provide financial assistance in times of crisis and assistance claims, which used to be met from a different budget in to customers returning to the community from a previous care the council. The council also put some small amounts arrangement.” from the fund towards dealing with council tax for The money was given to the council for such purposes, flooded properties. The amount that went to people in although it was not ring-fenced; I will return to that real hardship was a relatively small part of the total point later. The DWP retained responsibility for situations allocation. of crisis that had to do with benefit transitions and As I have said, if I worked through the council’s delays. Will the Minister confirm that that is his reading policy document, I could find many ways of saying no of the situation? Is he comfortable that the new interface to people’s claims. That has resulted in an increased is working effectively? When the DWP had responsibility case load for me as the local MP, and we have many for the discretionary social fund, there was no interface, examples of people being turned down. For example, but one of the issues now is whether a crisis situation is someone was turned down because they had an annual the responsibility of the local council or the DWP. mobile phone contract. Quite how they were supposed The budget for the discretionary social fund was to turn that into cash to help with their crisis was not transferred to councils, and for 2013-14 there was explained. That did not seem the right thing to do to programme funding of £631,000 and an allowance for someone who was experiencing a short-term problem. administration costs of £133,000. In 2014-15, the amount of programme funding was the same, but the administration Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East allowance was only £122,000. How were those amounts Cleveland) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman has mentioned assessed? Clearly, some work was done in the DWP to the funds that have not been spent yet, which I believe 305WH Discretionary Social Fund (Redcar 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Discretionary Social Fund (Redcar 306WH and Cleveland) and Cleveland) are at about the £465,000 mark. The council has said This debate is about the discretionary social fund, that it is carrying those funds forward to use for future but I cannot allow it to be completed without referring allocations. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that that to the discretionary housing payment fund, which is is a wise course of action, in light of the fact that on 2 associated with the discretionary social fund and is in January this year, the Government cancelled discretionary place to address issues arising from the welfare reform social fund payments to councils for future years? Does process. In mid-February 2014, it was discovered that he agree that the council could use that balance to help only just over half of the DHP money had been paid future DSF claimants, given that the Government will out for the year ending in March 2014. I understand not make any further allocations? that, unlike the discretionary social fund, the discretionary housing payment fund would have had to have been Ian Swales: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that repaid if it had not been used within the financial year. comment. I share his concern, which I will mention Again, I was concerned by the number of rejections later. I hope the Minister will respond on the future of about which I was hearing. I wrote to the Minister’s the DSF. colleague, Lord Freud, a number of times, especially on There was a £508,000 underspend, which has been the issue of disabled adults. added to the £754,000 allocation for the current year, The Minister for Pensions may be aware that it was 2014-15, which makes £1.26 million in total. As the Redcar and Cleveland borough council that lost a court hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland case involving a disabled adult to whom it had not been (Tom Blenkinsop) mentioned, the council has set out a prepared to pay a discretionary housing payment. The plan to spend that money over four years, rather than in judgment clearly stated: just the one year that we would have had left under the “In considering whether there is under-occupation of the original allocation, which addresses his point. The council appellant’s property, the local authority has not taken into clearly assumes that no further DSF money will be consideration her disabilities and her reasonable requirements, as available beyond that period. More than £500,000 was a result of these, to sleep in a bedroom of her own”. required to be spent on crisis in our area, so will the It is certainly true, as Lord Freud kept writing back to Minister confirm that, through the various reforms, his me, that discretionary housing payments were meant to Department plans to make that nil from the year 2015-16? cover such circumstances, and the judgment made that If that is the case, I understand why the council might very clear. The council, however, expected people in feel the need to spread the money more widely. More that situation to apply every three months for the renewal than £800,000 of the Department’s allocation for the of their discretionary housing payment, and many other two years 2013-14 and 2014-15 will actually be spent in councils expect only an annual application, particularly three future years beyond the general election, which from people who suffer from disability. The Minister for obviously has implications for spending versus politics. Pensions knows that I have consistently fought on that The council has developed a comprehensive spending issue, and I was obviously pleased to support the Affordable plan for the £1.26 million. Over a four-year period the Homes Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member council intends to make grant awards of £190,000 and for St Ives (Andrew George) last Friday. The anomaly loans of £300,000, of which it expects £75,000 to be for disabled adults will hopefully be addressed, assuming repaid over the period. The citizens advice bureau will the Bill is enacted, and such court cases and difficulties get £75,000, including £20,000 to improve financial for people will no longer be required. capability. A carers charity will get £20,000 to help The discretionary housing budget was spent by the carers and the disabled apply for the funds. £75,000 will council, and one way in which it was spent was that a go to the local credit union to help make it sustainable. I number of local residents were delighted to receive an mentioned the section 17 children’s awards, which will unexpected £1,000 cheque through their letterboxes. total £200,000. Some £475,000 will be spent on Some of them had moved up to six months previously administration, which when added to the administration because they had been under-occupying. I understand that happened in the first year, 2013-14, means that the council’s reluctance to provide the money at the some £600,000 will be spent on administration—council time because it did not know whether the budget would processes and staff—as opposed to the £255,000 that extend and be sufficient for the last month of the year, was allocated for 2013-14 and 2014-15. The upshot is but it managed to defray the money very quickly when that over the next four years, of the £1.26 million, only the year end was approaching. Redcar and Cleveland £190,000, or about 15%, is available for straightforward borough council was of course one of the councils that grants to people in crisis. The plan is to spend the rest of applied for extra money, so not all the money arrived at the money in the ways that I have outlined. Does the the start of the year. However, I met a few delighted Minister believe that his Department expected such a residents who had suddenly received £1,000 that they picture to emerge when it gave those funds? were not expecting. The original purpose of the discretionary social fund The administration of the two funds raises questions was about the competence and attitude of some of the staff “to provide financial assistance in times of crisis and assistance to involved in the process. Given the stories that I have customers returning to the community from a previous care heard, I believe that, overall, my constituents have arrangement.” suffered more than they need to suffer. I will refrain That was the council’s original remit for the money, and from saying that this was politically motivated, but things have clearly moved on since then. The council’s there is no doubt that the Labour party has been able to plans are a bold attempt to address the issues of deprivation campaign on welfare reform more effectively as a result and the problems in our area, but my sense is that far of some of the issues. less direct help is reaching those who are most in need, I am obviously not raising this issue today to get a and my casework bears that out. I would appreciate it if response from the Minister on every detail, so I will the Minister responded on the balance of the spending. summarise. I have already asked a number of questions. 307WH Discretionary Social Fund (Redcar 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Discretionary Social Fund (Redcar 308WH and Cleveland) and Cleveland) [Ian Swales] do. We looked at what DWP was doing, and it became apparent that community care grants and, to some Is he satisfied that the interface is clear on the Department’s extent, crisis loans overlapped with things that local responsibility for benefit transitions and delays, and on authorities were already doing for vulnerable people, the council’s responsibility for the discretionary social people coming out of care and people in crisis. The fund? How was the discretionary social fund money point of the reforms was to give local authorities the given to the council for 2013-14 and 2014-15 assessed, money that we would have spent and enable them to and how did it compare with previous years, particularly co-ordinate it, so people have to deal with only one 2012-13? Is it true that the Department expects the authority, not two, and get better results. amount to be nil for 2015-16 and beyond? Is he happy It is fair to say that all local authorities in 2013-14 that, over the next four years, only 15% of the discretionary took a while to get going on local welfare provision, social fund is budgeted for direct grants to individuals which was not surprising given that it was new money and that more than twice as much money is earmarked and that new processes had to be set up. We estimate for council administration? that in the first year, 2013-14, about 60% of the funding The Department has embarked on many challenging that was available across the country was spent. We reforms, and any Government would have made quite a think the corresponding figure for Redcar and Cleveland lot of those reforms. The Government have provided is 40%—that is programme funding, not administration. help, and the Department’s reputation depends on that help being used effectively. Clearly we support localism, Although we accept that there is a general issue about but is he happy that the money is not ring-fenced? setting up new systems because it is costly and takes Should the Department say more about the criteria for time, Redcar and Cleveland council seems to have struggled the awards? Are local councils the right recipients of more than many others in getting the money out to its the funds? These are challenging times for many of my citizens. As my hon. Friend said, the unspent money constituents, and the Government are carrying on the was carried forward, so it will get into the system at work of the previous Government in balancing taxpayers’ some point. Nevertheless, in 2013-14 many people in money and welfare and trying to mitigate the consequent need did not get the money when they needed it, and the effects. I look forward to the Minister’s response on fact that the council will spend the money in 2017-18 or how that has been happening in my local area. 2018-19 does not address those people’s needs, which is regrettable. 11.19 am My hon. Friend asked about ring-fencing, which is a constant dilemma. Philosophically, he and I are both The Minister for Pensions (Steve Webb): It is a pleasure localists, so we think that, in general, local authorities to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. I are best placed to determine local need. There is a risk if congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar we tell councils in every specific case that they absolutely (Ian Swales) on securing the debate and on representing have to spend so much money on a certain thing because his constituents’ concerns in such a measured, thoughtful we think it is important. There is a tension between and well-informed way. those things, and judgments must constantly be made. In the brief time available to me, I hope to answer my The philosophy behind the localisation was to merge hon. Friend’s questions and make some observations the funding with other council funding in an integrated about how Redcar and Cleveland council’s performance way to make funding for one person part of the big pot, compares with that of other local authorities. Some of so we felt particularly uncomfortable about creating a the things he observed are, to a greater or lesser extent, hard ring fence, although we thought hard about it. In common across local authorities, but some suggest that the end, we said to local authorities, “This is your there are particular issues in Redcar that I should money.”The two things my hon. Friend referred to—crisis address. loans for people in immediate crisis and community My hon. Friend asked about the allocations for 2013-14 care grants for people who are coming back into the and beyond. Nationally, we are roughly spending the community—are where we would have spent the money, money that we would have spent on community care and they mirror where the money was previously spent. grants and certain crisis loans, plus an amount for We asked local authorities to report back to us. As administration, had we continued the schemes. The there was an underspend in 2013-14, I wrote to local transition to local provision was not a cut, but broadly a authorities in January and July 2014 to tell them that in transfer of the money we would have spent. 2014-15 we would like to know what was happening on My hon. Friend asked how the specific allocations a quarterly basis. The majority of local authorities were made. They were based on historical spend and replied to that letter, but Redcar and Cleveland did not, demand. In other words, we looked at where community which puts us in a difficult position. In the letter on care grants were paid and where crisis loans were bid 2014-15 spending, I said: for. It is never quite as simple as that, but that is the “Whilst we do not intend to withhold money, if evidence basis for the allocations. He asked for the figure for comes to light that the money is not being spent we will have to 2012-13. In his area, the Department for Work and revisit that decision during the course of the year… Providing a Pensions spent £717,000 on the things that the council return is a crucial part of monitoring this spend”. is now responsible for. I urge my hon. Friend’s local authority to let us know I will briefly recap what happened. My hon. Friend what it has been spending the money on in 2014-15. As spoke about localism, and we took the view that, although custodians of more than £170 million a year of public it is right that DWP does certain things nationally, it is money, we have a duty to seek assurance, in the context important that the national Government do not overlap, of localism, that the money is being well spent, so we duplicate and interact unhelpfully with what local authorities need to hear back from the local authorities. 309WH Discretionary Social Fund (Redcar 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Discretionary Social Fund (Redcar 310WH and Cleveland) and Cleveland) My hon. Friend also raised an important issue about by the Department for Communities and Local the proportion of people being turned down, which is Government. As non-ring-fenced activity, there is no concerning. Not everybody used to get social fund separate sum in the total local government settlement loans or community care grants, but, roughly, more for that item, but the local government settlement for than two thirds of people who applied for crisis loans 2015-16 was set in the knowledge that this matter is a and more than a third of people who applied for responsibility of local government. It is fair to say that community care grants were successful. Although my local government gets significant sums for people in hon. Friend said that the one in 10 figure might not be need. For example, it receives £200 million for a troubled what it seems, one must ask whether we have the balance families initiative, and £3.8 billion for adult health and right if the vast majority of people who have gone social care funding. Therefore, large sums of money go through the expense and difficulty of claiming are to local government for people in need, and it will have turned down. Obviously, it is for local authorities to that responsibility from 2015-16. The issue that my hon. decide how to carve up the pot, but if so many people Friend raised is currently the subject of a judicial review. are being turned down, the local authority probably I hope the matter will be resolved before too long, but, should look again at whether is has the balance right. as it is currently before the courts, I am constrained about saying any more about it. Tom Blenkinsop: Will the Minister give way? Finally, my hon. Friend asked whether I think that the council got it right and whether that is how we Steve Webb: As I have got only a few minutes, I am expected money to be paid out. I hesitate to second-guess sure the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for not giving local authorities because the point of localism is to let way. them decide how best to use the money in the interests My hon. Friend asked what happens in a crisis and of their citizens. I share my hon. Friend’s concern about whose responsibility it is. In general, if it has been the amount of money in kind available—as he said, we agreed that somebody is entitled to a DWP benefit, but are not talking about cash—and about the fact that in they have not yet got the money, they can get an the past people would have been able to get significant advance payment of benefit. That is a matter for the help in a crisis. Money is going to other things that are DWP. If a person has applied to us and there has been a worthy in their own right—nobody objects to funding a bureaucratic problem at our end, that is a matter for us, credit union or a carers’ group—but there is a risk, and but financial crises per se are a matter for the local local authorities that have had spending power transferred authority; that is the split. If a person has an issue with to them must look after people in crisis. Improved DWP, we expect them to go to DWP, but people have infrastructure and general financial capability are great, financial crises for a whole raft of reasons. but people in crisis and those who come out of institutions need provision. Every local authority, including my My hon. Friend asked about the position in 2015-16. hon. Friend’s, must meet those urgent, immediate needs, DWP receives funding from the Treasury, which it not only their wider strategic goals. I hope that response allocates in full to local authorities for local welfare helps my hon. Friend. provision for 2013-14 and 2014-15. The intension was always that, post 2015-16, it would be one of the things 11.30 am that fell within local authority responsibilities funded Sitting suspended. 311WH 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 312WH

Outdoor Sport and Recreation some examples of where these recreational activities are happening and talk about areas where we can perhaps do more. [MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I 2.30 pm congratulate the hon. Member on securing an important debate. I, too, am a very enthusiastic walker and I noticed Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): It is good to be the way he was going when he talked about a “rambling” under your stewardship this afternoon, Mrs Main, for speech and being a “walking testament”; I could see the this debate. It is wonderful to see so many people direction he is taking. turning out for it. There has been a great deal of interest in the topic of Government policy on sport, outdoor About a year ago, I secured a debate on childhood activities and recreation. It is really good to see that so obesity. This approach—getting people outdoors—is many Members want to speak, so I will keep my remarks the biggest way to combat childhood obesity in our fairly short, although given the nature of what I will say, times. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we, as a they will be slightly rambling. [HON.MEMBERS: “Oh!”] society, and the Government need to address that issue Sorry—that is my only joke of the afternoon. for the sake of this and future generations?

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): He Huw Irranca-Davies: I entirely agree, and perhaps the is Welsh. most cost-effective way that we can do that is through a coherent strategy, involving the Welsh Government, the Huw Irranca-Davies: Indeed. UK Government, the Northern Ireland Assembly and I am an absolute evangelist for the great outdoors, so on, that makes use of this great asset that we have which may come as a bit of a surprise because earlier in literally outside our doors. my career I was a sports facility and arts facility manager. Such a strategy could certainly have a major effect on My job then was to encourage people to come indoors, combating childhood obesity. Studies that have come into sports centres, to get the gym mats out, do the out only this year, building on studies going back to the aerobics sessions, get into the gym itself and so on; I 1960s, show that if someone gets out of their car and was bringing people indoors. However, the greatest free walks or cycles to work, it has a major impact on their gym that we have is when we step outside of our homes; mortality, their length of life and their likelihood of we do not even need to get in a car. It is what we do developing serious medical conditions later in life. It is when we step out into London or elsewhere, leaving our as clear as day now; there is no scientific argument homes and turning left or right, before going up into the about it. So let us make sure that we have such a hills, as I am fortunate enough to be able to do when I strategy, which percolates from the national level right walk out into the uplands of south Wales. down to the local level, and into the voluntary sector as The great outdoors is a tremendous asset and I guess well; we should use the groups that are already in place that my argument today is that we parliamentarians, the to get people up and going. Government and the organisations that are involved with the great outdoors—of which there are many—all Mr Sheerman: I agree with everything that my hon. need to do our utmost to encourage people to get out Friend has said so far. I made a jibe about his being there, because of the wide range of benefits of going Welsh, but he knows that I started out as a Welsh outdoors. There are definitely health benefits, not only politician in his very own village of Gowerton, and he physical health benefits but benefits for people’s mental knows that my father also suffered from ankylosing well-being. Encouraging people to go outdoors can also spondylitis. help to drive activities such as GP exercise on prescription, Will my hon. Friend concentrate a little bit of his or GP referrals as they are sometimes called. Such speech on the importance of getting children into the methods are not appropriate for every individual who countryside? He knows that I am the chairman of the sits in front of a GP, but increasingly the evidence John Clare Trust, which has a campaign, Every Child’s shows that a very good prescription for many people, Right to the Countryside. In this country, 35% to 40% whether they have mental health issues or physical of kids do not see the countryside at all, and if they do health issues, is to do what they can within their abilities see it, they only see it on a school trip. So please let us to go out and walk or cycle, and enjoy the great outdoors do something to get schoolchildren into the countryside. beyond them. I really am an evangelist for this: in fact, I am a Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Interventions should walking testament to it. As I said, early in my career I be quite short. They are becoming mini-speeches. was in sports facility management, but later I was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis, which for many people is a severe condition that will progressively get Huw Irranca-Davies: Thank you, Mrs Main. worse, eventually confining them to very restricted mobility, My hon. Friend is right, and the John Clare Trust and so on. Yet the fact is that I simply walk out from my and so many other organisations do such good work. house on a Sunday afternoon, stretch my legs, go with When I was an Environment Minister, one of the most the children and the rest of my family in my immediate inspiring projects that I saw in the national parks was neighbourhood; I cycle to work, even though it is only the Mosaic programme, which dealt not only with children five minutes back and forth; and occasionally I go and but with people from different ethnic backgrounds—people do what I love, which is to get away from this place and who typically did not go out, and felt that there was get into the wide open spaces. That is the gospel I want some sort of psycho-perceptual barrier that stopped to sing to a lot of people, and in a moment I will give them going out into the countryside—and encouraged 313WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 314WH them to go out. Then what we saw was the intra- More female than male staff are employed in outdoor generational effect of children taking their parents and activities. How many sectors can say that? Some 55% of grandparents into the great outdoors. employees in outdoor recreation and sport are women, I am focusing on strolling, but I have enjoyed some of not men. That is a great thing to celebrate. I know from the most adrenaline-filled times in my life outdoors, my background that the industry employees a higher including hanging by my fingertips from cliffs in north-west proportion of young people aged 16 to 24, giving them Wales, which was scary and exhilarating at the same great opportunities. time. I have broken bones on mountain bike paths; I do Let us go for the hard cash and the hard sell. We see not do that anymore, as I am getting on now and have a time and again, as reports come out, just how much this more sedate approach. I have thrown myself off the does for local economies and the national economy. cliffs in west Wales and swung from them, while coasteering, The Reconomics report said that walking tourism alone which is a tremendous activity. And I have swum in the was estimated to generate up to £2.76 billion for the sea off west Wales, through waters full of jellyfish, English economy; that is quite staggering. bottlenose dolphins and so on, which was absolutely phenomenal. Let me turn for a moment to Wales and go back home to the Wales coast path—the first, the landmark Such activity is an education as well as being good for and ground-breaking all-Wales coastal path. In its first people’s health, and it is good for the economy. Locally, 12 months, up to September 2013, the path generated we have some amazing initiatives along that line. We 2.82 million visits and added £32 million to Wales’s have a striders group—the Ogmore Valley Striders. economy. Some 94% of those visitors were walking for What does it do? It works with existing groups on the leisure, with around 40% of them visiting the path as ground that bring together older people—third-age part of a longer holiday. The impact of the path on the people—and it says to them, “Come out. Let’s do some local economy helped 5,400 tourism-related businesses mild walking along the cycle paths that we have. Then and led to an extra 120, and more, jobs created within maybe one day, we’ll go a bit higher,” and so on. I now 2 km of the route. I can see this for myself in my own see people from those groups sitting in the café halfway area. Going down to the Glamorgan heritage coast, a up that cycle path, and there will be 20 of them together. tremendous piece of coastline—around Southerndown They are also spending money in that café, while they and so on—people will see the new businesses springing have a sit-down and a chat, before they go out and get up. I particularly recommend the Barn at West Farm, the health benefits of walking as well. just outside Southerndown, which is a fantastic place to We also have the Love 2 Walk festival. Labour-run stop when on a walk, have a nice coffee and listen to the Bridgend county borough council supports it every guitar music being played—and on you go then. year, and it is growing every year, with a long list of The coast path has led to exposure for Wales on the places for people to go and walk to, ranging from easy BBC and ITV, in The New York Times and USA Today, walks to very challenging and rigorous walks in the and on Fox News, because it is an all-country, all-nation south Wales valleys. Recently, we have had an Elvis coastal path. People can hit the coast in Wales and turn walk in Porthcawl, which broke the record for the left or right without stopping; it is phenomenal. The number of Elvises walking along the all-Wales coastal Wales coast path was included as one of the nominees path—who can say more than that? in VirtualTourist’s campaign to find the “8th Wonder of the World”, alongside spots such as Yellowstone national Mr Sheerman: There is nothing to say about that. park in the United States of America. National Geographic magazine named the Pembrokeshire coast section of Huw Irranca-Davies: However, there is not only walking. the path in its top 10 places in the world to visit. In I pay tribute to the work that the hon. Member for Lonely Planet’s 2012 “Best in Travel” guide, the Wales Macclesfield (David Rutley) does in this area with several coast path was voted the greatest region on earth. all-party groups, including an event that he pulled together in June last year where a range of organisations came It is brilliant that recently, within the past few days, together, which deal with canoeing, mountaineering, we have heard that the England coastal path will now be open access, open spaces, national parks, walking in delivered by 2020. We were previously lacking a timetable London and other cities—all of that activity. Out of for that. As the Minister who took the Marine and that event came a very good piece of work called Coastal Access Bill through Committee, I can say that Reconomics, which pulled together in a comprehensive we were a little bit worried that the path was going to way all the data—a mountain of data—that show just get kicked into the long grass, but it has now been said how beneficial outdoor recreation is; not just walking, that there will be an all-England coastal path by 2020. but all the types of outdoor recreation. It showed that People will be able to walk from the top north-east of outdoor recreation is the UK’s favourite pastime, with England, all the way round England, through Wales, all all these diverse activities from potholing to caving, to around the coastal path, and right up the other side, simply strolling outside or going on a bike with the then they can carry on up into Scotland, as part of a family. Great Britain walk. Interestingly, women are just as likely as men to take part in outdoor recreation. As a former sports facility Mr Sheerman: I am being carried away with nostalgia manager, I can tell hon. Members that, in terms of as my hon. Friend talks about coastal paths in Wales women’s participation in sports centres, we still have to and elsewhere, but we in Yorkshire—in Huddersfield—have break down some of the barriers to people doing indoors wonderful countryside, although we are bit far from the activities. We work hard on that. Outdoors, there is no coastline. In terms of his Clare Balding tours, will he differentiation; people do outdoor activities regardless think about coming to Huddersfield and Yorkshire for of gender, and that is great. wonderful walks with us, too? 315WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 316WH

Huw Irranca-Davies: Definitely. I would love to visit our utmost to make the most of our country’s great and walk there with my hon. Friend and, as time allows, outdoors. We are a beautiful island nation and sometimes visit the whole of these paths. Of course, I am only we forget it too easily. Let us get out there and use it a talking about coastal paths; we now have a long distance heck of a lot more. trails network in the UK, which is tremendous. Two years ago, I walked with my whole family, carrying rucksacks, along the Hadrian’s Wall path in seven days. 2.47 pm It was brilliant. What an experience. We need to encourage David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): It is a pleasure to more of this. serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. Having The hon. Member for Macclesfield held a brilliant lived in St Albans, I know that there are some wonderful reception at which a six-point strategy was launched, walks around the city and elsewhere in Hertfordshire. and it is not just to do with walking. Organisations I congratulate the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw including the Wild Network, the Sport and Recreational Irranca-Davies)—my hon. Friend—on securing this debate Alliance, the YouthHostel Association—I am a member and making a terrific speech, with real enthusiasm and of that association, so my apologies because I should a clear sense of purpose and direction. It was clearly have declared that at the outset; I am also vice-president grounded in his experience in the world of work before of Ramblers Cymru and president of the Glamorgan coming to the House and as a Minister. I congratulate Area Ramblers—Living Streets, Putting People First, him on what he said and agree with just about all of it, the British Mountaineering Council, Britain on Foot, except for his comment that Pembrokeshire and that Ramblers GB, the Open Spaces Society, the Campaign part of the world is the best, when, clearly, other hon. for National Parks and the English Outdoor Council Members would feel that Yorkshire or Cheshire, or were pulled together. other parts of the country, were better. But there we go. Those organisations are asking the Minister for six things that I will mention in headlines, because I am Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): And sure that other hon. Members will speak to them in Kent. detail. They would like cross-government support for a long-term strategy on outdoor recreation and improvement David Rutley: Kent, I hear, too. However, we will see. of access to coast and countryside, because of the Hon. Members will have their chance to make those challenges for local authorities in maintaining simple points in due course. rights of access that allow people to get up on to the I declare an interest up front, as the co-chair of the high hills or to long-distance paths. We need to find a all-party group on mountaineering. I refer hon. Members way to keep those routes open for cyclists and people on to the register of all-party groups. I am also a vice-chair horseback and on bikes, and so on. of the all-party group on mountain rescue and a secretary Those organisations want to increase opportunities of the all-party group on national parks. Most importantly, for young people to get outside—mentioned by my hon. I am the Member of Parliament for Macclesfield, one Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman)— of the great constituencies of this country. It is a beautiful because young people will drag their whole families and constituency where the Cheshire peak comes together the generations with them. They want to maximise the with the Peak district. It is well worth a visit, and I economic contribution of outdoor recreation. Some encourage everybody to come along. people pooh-poohed the idea that the England coastal I thank the Sports Minister for attending. She is path would provide economic benefits, but the evidence passionate about sport, having been a prolific sportsperson from Wales is that it certainly will; businesses will shoot herself in the past, and appreciates the importance of up along that path and make the most of it. outdoor activities. We were fortunate enough to meet Those organisations want to strengthen planning Andrew Denton, the chairman of the Outdoor Industries guidance and protect the outdoors. We know about the Association, to talk about many of the things we are pressures and that we have to ensure that this is a living discussing today. I hope that, given that enthusiasm, at countryside, but we also need to make sure that what a future meeting the Minister will change her title from people go to the countryside to enjoy is still there as Minister for Sport to Minister for Sport and Outdoor well; getting that balance right is critical. Activities. That would only be appropriate. The sixth ask is for better public transport in rural Positive progress has been made in recent weeks and areas, for a number of reasons, and not only for cross- months. The creation of the England coast path is a modular approaches to transport so that people can get major step forward and positive development and there to where they want to go. For example, people might is a clear timetable to make that happen. I am delighted want to do the Taff trail on their bike, so on a Sunday that that is moving forward; it is a key element of the six they go on a bus that will drop them in Brecon and then key proposals that have been put together by the outdoor they can cycle all the way back to Cardiff. However, it is organisations, which the hon. Member for Ogmore has not just about that. Study after study is now showing already discussed. Furthermore, it is good news for that better public transport in rural areas—in Wales, walkers across the country and for climbers. England and everywhere else—encourages people to I know that representatives from the British walk more. They take the bus and then walk and stroll, Mountaineering Council are here. It is important to and the pounds fall off and they feel better in themselves, recognise that the spreading room—the margin between and so on. the path and the sea itself—is vital for outdoor activities That is all I am going to say, because so many hon. and, in particular, climbers. The important thing for the Members want to contribute. I welcome the chance to communities on that route is that footfall will increase, have this debate. This is far from being an attack on the which will help boost the rural economy in those areas. Government; this is positive and encouraging. Let us do The key ask today is for an overarching strategy for the 317WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 318WH outdoors—a sense of direction and a clear plan of with veterans groups in the sponsored event that went action, co-ordinated by a body that can not only fine-tune up Cotopaxi earlier this year. Other Members, including the shaping of that, but go out and work with the my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford Minister and Sport England to deliver it. There are (Tracey Crouch), went too. That set a high standard. many other things that we will talk about today, but She did a fantastic job, and I hope we will hear more that is the key ask. about that later. I will put things into context, because the issues we There is growing evidence that more has to be done. are discussing are vital for our nation and critical for A Government-sponsored paper, “Moving More, Living the rural economy in several ways. First, on participation, More”, sets out that the costs associated with inactivity the Olympic legacy is absolutely critical to this country, in the UK are some £20 billion. It is clear that those and there is more we can do—perhaps in ways that the involved in a lot of physical activity reduce their risk of originators of the Olympic bid did not envisage. There dying early by 30%. It is astounding that 30% of the are other ways of getting people to be physically active. UK population are physically inactive, compared with We have to tackle physical inactivity; it is putting pressure 8% in the Scandinavian countries. Quite simply, something on our health services and threatens the health of more needs to be done. multiple generations. Secondly, as we have already said, This is a clear spur and a clear call of action for there is the importance of tourism, particularly to these Public Health England, our local health and wellbeing rural areas. boards across the country and all public bodies. We I am co-chairman of the all-party group on have to wake up and take clear action to ensure that we mountaineering, and we have been working hard with a move the agenda further forward. Let us not try to wide range of MPs and, for that matter, peers in taking reinvent the wheel and come up with fancy options. It is the agenda forward. As we look for how to bring about straightforward—walking works and many of these greater success, it is important to reflect on the success outdoor pursuits work; we just have to get more people that cycling has seen in recent years. It has been an active outdoors. incredibly well articulated campaign that has engaged We have already heard about the important report the public, not just with the elite sport itself, but with “Reconomics”, which is being taken forward by the mass participation. Sport and Recreation Alliance. Figures have already I saw that this Sunday at the Bollington BikeFest. been put forward, but one thing that amazed me was Some 300 people turned up to do cycling events, which that the visitor spend associated with outdoor activities ranged in length from 20 miles to 75 miles. It was is £21 billion across the nation. That is a huge opportunity organised by Macclesfield Lions club. We have to build and more can follow, if we get it right. One tremendous on the success of cycling, because organised sport, as quote from that incredible report states that the outdoors far as I can see, is only one element of the equation, and are we have to go beyond that. The focus should not just be “a vast blue and green gym with no membership fee, and a on sports, but on a much wider range of outdoor sporting arena like no other.” activities. As the hon. Member for Ogmore said, it is How true! often easier and cheaper to participate in outdoor activities, Locally in Macclesfield, as in Ogmore and other so we should promote them. Walking is a great example. parts of the country, we are seeing such events as the In east Cheshire, our ramblers group has 700 members, Bollington walking festival move forward and countless and we can do even better in building that membership fell races. I was able to survive the Wincle Trout race last base. year. We have the “Walkers are Welcome” scheme and other initiatives, and with all these things, people are Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): First, I seeing that we need to move further forward. apologise to you, Mrs Main, for being late; I forgot that In the Peak district, they are taking forward fantastic the debate was in this Committee Room. I start by activity in promoting cycling. Quite simply, the ambition congratulating the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw is clear. We want a step change in participation in Irranca-Davies). I also congratulate my hon. Friend the physical activity. We want to take 1 million-plus people Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) on his work out of physical inactivity so that lives can be saved. We on the APPG, of which I am proud to be an active want to see a real boost to the rural economy, too. member. Does he share my concern about how the participation figures are calculated by Sport England? Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): There is That has a big effect on funding. We know that there are absolutely a desire to create more trail, walkways and thousands and thousands of people out walking, yet bridleways. In my area of north Lincolnshire, our local that is not reflected in the figures or the funding. council is investing millions in the River Ancholme trail, the Isle of Axholme greenway and the Crowle to Gunness cycleway, among many other schemes. David Rutley: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have to capture robustly the activity levels that are One problem we have in trying to open up such trails already there and then build on that success. It is clear is land ownership. There are supportive landowners that more people are getting involved. The increases in who see the benefit to the economy and the population outdoor activities are far greater than in other organised generally, but others, unfortunately—generally those sports. Let us capture that and then get what funding we who own the land in the middle of the trail—are not need—we do not need the same as many organised quite so supportive— sports—to help move things forward. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I think the I recognise the great work that my hon. Friend has speaker, who has a limited amount of time, has got the done, notably in highlighting some of the well-being point you were making, Mr Percy. A lot of Members issues involved in outdoor activities, not least his work wish to speak. 319WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 320WH

David Rutley: I thank my hon. Friend; I know that he Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Faversham is keen and passionate about these issues. Access can be and Mid Kent (Sir Hugh Robertson), took that agenda a challenge, but the way to deal with such things—we seriously and that all those things have been achieved. saw evidence of this with the Deregulation Bill—is Now, we are asking for just six things and have a through collaborative coalition building among landowners, much clearer agenda of what we want to accomplish. I ramblers and other outdoor organisations and local hope that we will see the same impact and enthusiasm councils putting forward the case positively and providing from this Minister and others to move the process the right levels of support. forward. I will not go through all six points as time is Progress is being made, and it is not just the English limited with others wanting to speak, but they are clear coast path that is going forward. It is good to see No. and set out a long-term strategy and a clear economic 10, as well as the Department for Culture, Media and contribution. The point about access, inclusion and Sport and the Department of Health, getting behind getting young people involved is key, but this is cross- the great outdoors campaign. Recently, my hon. Friend generational and young and old alike should be considered. the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) and I were able to welcome the Minister responsible for public Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): I have come health, my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane to this debate because I am deeply worried about a Ellison), to the Goyt valley, in the wonderful constituency specific matter. Although people should be outside of High Peak but close to the border with Macclesfield. enjoying the countryside and the fresh air, more than We were able to walk and talk. We discussed the importance 600 people have been hurt or worse by cattle. Does my of getting people out from their community and into hon. Friend agree that until we get a proper understanding the countryside. As we arrived at the trig point at the of how to handle access and farming of large, potentially summit of Shining Tor, we met a huge church group out dangerous animals, ramblers will continue to be hurt? for a walk. With their actions, they were making the We need to do something about that and cannot pretend, point that we have been trying to make in words. It was as ramblers have done to date, that it is not a problem. a memorable summit meeting. We are looking to build on the work done so far by David Rutley: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. building awareness through parliamentary away days in Public safety is paramount. We must educate about the the hills and through working with such outdoor legends benefits and the associate risks, but that is what makes as Alan Hinkes and Sir Chris Bonington. We should opportunities in the outdoors so exciting. It is that mix ensure that we build on the great campaign we launched of learning and new experiences while also being aware last year, “Britain on Foot”. Its aim is to help more of the risks and working out how to deal with them. My people get off the sofa and get outdoors. hon. Friend makes an important point that I am sure will be noted by the outdoors organisations represented Given what happened with cycling, what was coming here. ahead with the general election and the need to get all parties involved in this debate, 10 leading outdoor In conclusion, the debate has been positive. On a day organisations came together to create six key proposals when many minds are concerned with the state of our for Government action on the outdoors, which have Union and with conflicts in other parts of the world, it already been referenced. That coalition was, in itself, a is tremendous to see so many people here to take this landmark activity, and a wide range of interests are agenda further forward. I know that the Minister is a represented within it. The fact that those organisations keen walker and has been to Cumbria, so I ask her to have come together highlights the need for change and reflect on the amazing, stunning views from the tops of action, and I hope that that agenda is taken seriously. I Blencathra and Skiddaw. They are worth the climb and am sure that Opposition Members are busy getting the hard work, and the same is true for promoting the those proposals to their manifesto-creating groups. I activities that we are discussing today. I hope that the am doing the same with other Members here in the Minister agrees that it is time to get more people moving Conservative party. However, seeing this agenda shaping outdoors. up and getting so much support from so many different outdoor organisations is a landmark. Several hon. Members rose— We can learn from other countries that are doing a Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I will call the good job, such as the United States and its work with its wind-ups at 20 minutes to 4, so each speaker has around national parks. There is a Cabinet-ranking Secretary of six minutes if there are not too many interventions. the Interior whose job it is to ensure that the agenda is furthered. The Scandinavians have also clearly done a fantastic job in improving physical activity levels. Within 3.3 pm the United Kingdom, Scotland and Northern Ireland Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): It already have clearly articulated outdoor strategies, so is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mrs Main. I we are asking today that the Minister consider creating congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore a strategy for the outdoors for the entire United Kingdom. (Huw Irranca-Davies) on securing a debate on this We also hope that, following Thursday’s referendum, it important subject today. will continue to include Scotland for many years to In 2012, London successfully hosted the Olympic come. games and Glasgow successfully hosted the Commonwealth Last year, we had an Adjournment debate, attended games this summer. I was in Glasgow for a week and by many of the Members present today, that led to three have to say that the fans in places such as Hampden small requests: to recognise outdoor activities; to meet Park were not partisan. It was good to see crowds, outdoor organisations; and to support the “Britain on containing many Scottish people, cheering on athletes Foot” campaign. I am delighted that the then Sports from all the home countries, which says something 321WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 322WH about sport as a unifying force for the Union. Those personal and social barriers for women and girls. The events helped to showcase a great variety of outdoor Government, together with the sport sector, local sports. This summer, Yorkshire proudly hosted the Grand communities and the media, must do more work on Départ of the Tour de France, and the success of that removing the gap. We must ensure that any Government event provided a boost to the sport of cycling. We can policy on outdoor sport and recreation helps to address take pride in recent successes, but we must also explore the barriers that currently prevent girls and women new ways to encourage people to participate in sport from participating in sporting and other physical activities. throughout the UK. While the overall gender gap in participation is of I am co-chair of the all-party group on women’s great concern, the lack of growth in participation rates sport and fitness and want to talk about the issues and among young women aged 16 to 25 is also worrying. It the barriers to the participation of girls and women in is clear from many surveys and reports that young girls sport, to which my hon. Friend has already referred. see sport as not for them. That perception often stems Last week, along with other Members present, I went to from negative experiences with PE and sport at school, an event in Parliament on women and girls in rugby. which is a point that is supported by the Culture, Media The event also celebrated the success of the England and Sport Committee’s report. A survey carried out by women’s team in winning the IRB world cup. It was the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation found that wonderful to talk to some members of the team, who 51% of girls were deterred from physical activity by are still elated at their victory. Their win was even more their experiences of school sport and PE. Many girls remarkable given that the women held down various described it negatively, citing a lack of choice, overly jobs, including plumbing, working for a vet, lifeguarding competitive environments, a lack of confidence in their and teaching, at the same time as training for their ability and a concern about body image. Changing national team. A squad of 20 of the women’s team have young girls’ perceptions of sport and being active is now been put on professional contracts in the run-up to essential if we want them to take up sport at school and the rugby sevens at the Rio Olympics. The women told get the health benefits. As has already been discussed, us that the contracts will mean that they can train each we should be concerned that girls and young people day and have some rest and recovery time between more generally are not taking up sport and activity at a training sessions and matches. At Rio, the teams they young age. Government should do more to ensure that will be competing against have been training and playing pupils are given the opportunity to participate from a full-time for a year or more. I wish the team well, young age in a wide range of sports and activities—wider because they are remarkable role models. than they are currently—to try to suit all interests. The situation of our elite women athletes still having There is an issue with funding. In the United States to hold down jobs while trying to train to the highest there is gender-balance in sports funding due to title IX level that they can achieve is not always well understood. legislation, which requires schools and other bodies The recent inquiry by the Select Committee on Culture, receiving public funding to ensure that expenditure on Media and Sport into women in sport highlighted that sport benefits boys and girls equally. Since this legislation as one of the problems that have remained since the was passed, the number of girls participating in secondary Olympics. At the elite level, women’s sport gains much school athletics in the US has gone from 7% to 41%. I less sponsorship and media coverage, and the pay and argue that we should adopt similar legislation, because prize money is lower. A report published this year by I feel that change here will be minor until there is more the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation found that equality in funding. women’s sport accounts for less than 0.5% of all commercial We must consider how we can inspire women to investment and only 7% of sports media coverage. participate in sport throughout their lives. If we look at When women are not paid for their achievements in the figures, it is interesting that many of the sports that sport, it is extremely difficult to encourage girls and are most popular with women are done informally, such young women to aspire to a career as an athlete. as running and swimming, and are therefore outside the The other issue, perhaps of more relevance to today’s formal funding structures. Women take part in running debate, highlighted by the Select Committee inquiry events such as Race for Life and will train up to run was that women’s participation in grass-roots sport is 5 km or 10 km, but then, sadly, not enough people still much lower than men’s. The most recent figures persist in taking part in the activity after the event is from the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation show completed. I did the Salford 10 km last Sunday. There that only just over 30% of women in England aged were 3,500 participants. Very impressively, 1,500 were 16-plus take part in sport or fitness once a week, compared women and 2,000 were men. That is a very good balance, with over 40% of men, which is a difference of 2 as we tend to see more men than women jogging on the million. Worryingly, in my local authority area of Salford street. the gap is even greater with 39% of men participating in Some good work has been done by sports organisations weekly sporting activity but only 24% of women. I find to encourage more women to participate. Since 2008, that really concerning. Members have already discussed British Cycling has led a highly successful campaign to the health benefits of activity, and I am impressed by get more women cycling. It wants to inspire 1 million the range of activities that hon. Members take part in, more women to ride, to race and to be part of British although I must say that mine is limited to running. It is cycling by 2020. In the first five years of its campaign, it concerning that 76% of women in Salford are not active has achieved significant gains, because it has given at such a level. guidance on routes, which is important when people are Research by the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation starting, and on safety. It has also created clubs to found that 12 million women wanted to play more introduce young people to cycling. That type of guidance sport, half of whom were inactive at the time of the and support is vital. I commend British Cycling on its survey. The participation gap persists because of practical, campaign. I look forward to seeing and hearing more 323WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 324WH

[Barbara Keeley] been made, there is still an awful lot we need to do to normalise life outside our urban areas. progress on that in the future. Given the facts I have touched on, Government and other sports organisations Other Members have touched on the health benefits must do more to ensure there is a similar push to help of outdoor activity. I like statistics, but it is still a very increase women’s participation in other sports and fitness worrying situation that 28% of children are obese or activities. suffer from obesity at some stage in their early years. That is partly because of the relatively small number These campaigns will not work unless we tackle who do one hour of vigorous exercise a day. That is all issues such as the funding imbalance, which I touched that is needed: one hour of vigorous exercise a day. on, and the lack of coverage of women’s sport. Hon. Members have talked about people getting involved in A number of excellent organisations have been mentioned the outdoors, particularly women. If women are taking so far. I will touch on the work of the Field Studies part in activities in informal ways, but not in sport, then Council, not necessarily because it is better than other we have to change the perception that sport is the organisations, but simply because I learned an important preserve of men. I am afraid it is not surprising that lesson when I visited its centre in Stackpole in my girls and young women see things that way while elite constituency. It demonstrated to me something that I male sports take up the vast majority of media coverage, had not registered before. One of the values of outdoor sponsorship and funding. To ensure outdoor sports and learning to a lot of the children and young adults who all sports thrive, we must push for women’s sport to be go to that institution is that it teaches them that they more adequately represented in the media and to be can be good at something. If they do not function or better funded. perform to their best ability in a traditional classroom situation, there is often something they can do out there on a beach, in a forest or whatever it might be that they 3.12 pm can suddenly excel at. When they discover there is Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South something they can excel at outside, it is remarkable Pembrokeshire) (Con): I start by drawing Members’ how they discover they can excel at things inside as well. attention to my declaration in the register. I thank the One of the things the Field Studies Council at Stackpole hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies): his told me was that part of the problem was the attitude of enthusiasm for this topic, and for Wales and everything the teachers who go with these kids. The teachers arrive it has to offer, is contagious. It is great to debate this on a Sunday night with no mobile phone reception, topic—in this Chamber at any rate—as it joins so many wondering what they are doing down there, wishing people together in a common cause. they were back at home, arms folded, slightly inclined Much as I am delighted to see the Minister in her to think, “Good luck. I haven’t been able to do anything place, this debate could have been answered by the with these kids, so I don’t suppose you will either.” At Department of Health, the Department for Education, the end of one week at one of these institutions, they the Treasury or a number of other Departments. Each are already booking their trip for next year because they has a real interest in this, both economic and social. I have seen, in such a short space of time, an absolute hope the Minister will acknowledge that this subject is transformation in the self-confidence and ability of inter-departmental. Every Department should look at children who, to some extent, they had written off as this as an opportunity to improve its performance, failures in the classroom. Suddenly, someone who was rather than as something it needs to acknowledge in a good at identifying stars, or who learned about seashells token fashion. or something like that went back to school and their performance in English, maths or history improved as a I will concentrate on the benefits of outdoor education consequence. That is why I said that a Minister from the and learning for children in particular. It worries me Department for Education could just as easily be sat on that only 10% of children ever get to play outside these the Front Bench for this debate, soaking up the benefits days, whereas 40% of their parents used to. One in three for that Department that this kind of activity offers. of our kids has never climbed a tree; one in 10 has ever ridden a bike; remarkably, 42%—including me—have We of course hear about obstacles that present never made a daisy chain. That may seem an irrelevant themselves; I am afraid that some of them are genuine. contribution, but it demonstrates that we are talking There is always some health and safety excuse for not about not just fitness, but culture, heritage and opening doing these things: we hear long lists of reasons why the eyes of people who might not have a daily opportunity “we can’t”, or “we won’t”. That is not very helpful to have their eyes opened to the extraordinary enrichment either. There has been some progress by the Government— to their lives that just a few short hours out in the open probably not enough—to sweep away what are, in some air and the countryside provide. cases, completely unreasonable and impractical health and safety considerations that get in the way of these A few Members might read that great magazine projects. Country Life. A wide-ranging survey it carried out—a few years ago now, it must be said—asked questions of That is as much as I want to say. There are a few a number of schoolchildren aged between about six and activities out there in the countryside that other Members 12. In answer to the question, “Why is it important to will touch on that have social, economic and ecological close gates when you go into the countryside?”, a worryingly benefits that are free to the taxpayer. When it comes to large number replied, “To keep the elephants in.” When the departmental response—whether it is this Department asked a question about what the greatest advantage was or others—I hope Ministers will look at outdoor activity about living in rural areas, the answer came back, and recreation not as a cost but as an investment in the “Because there aren’t so many coppers.” This should future health and happiness of young people in particular. demonstrate to us that, despite all the progress that has 325WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 326WH

3.19 pm The Sport and Recreation Alliance report that the hon. Member for Ogmore has referred to cites parts of Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): September is the Northumberland where one in five people are directly month of fruit, foraging and field sports. As someone involved in outdoor sports. I disagree; the figure is more who represents the most rural and sparsely populated like one in every two or three. Without them, the rural constituency in the country, I welcome the debate initiated economies of my area would wither and die. We all by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) know that tourism is the sixth largest industry, and we and I briefly put forward everything from Kielder forest, welcome many people to south Northumberland to Northumberland national park, Hadrian’s wall, the coast- enjoy its pleasures. We need to make the case for what is to-coast cycleway, the Pennine way, the various other an opportunity for the taxpayer, rather than a cost to cycleways, the Haltwhistle walking festival and the wild the taxpayer, and we should support and encourage it. heather moorlands. I could eulogise for ever—and that is just a small part of my constituency. I could mention 3.23 pm the 50 angling groups that fish the Tyne, the red squirrels Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): It is that have sanctuaries throughout Northumberland and a pleasure as always to serve under your chairmanship, all the individuals who make such a difference. We have Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ogmore not mentioned the organisations that support the rural (Huw Irranca-Davies) on securing this important debate. way of life, such as Country Life, The Field, or the My interest in the outdoors and sport goes back to my Moorland Association, but they should be supported in childhood. I am part of the pre-console and pre-computer the House. generation, who spent their entire time outside, playing I cannot stress enough the economic impact, eloquently in the fresh air. In fact, I had to be dragged back inside, set out by the hon. Member for Ogmore, that country most evenings, to do my homework or eat my tea. life makes. In my constituency, we have the best cycling, I grew up in Hythe, near the Kent coast. On one side fishing, shooting and hiking in the country, and three of of the house, there was a canal that we constantly tried those activities provide the rural economy with hundreds to cross using items from the garage. An area of hills of jobs, while shooting brings thousands. It is impossible called the Roughs was an adventure ground for us. It is for people living in southern Northumberland or north also a military training site, so we spent most of our Durham, or the Tynedale and Weardale valleys, to time picking up empty shells and wondering whether survive without the thousands of jobs that the relevant they were dangerous. We were close to the sea, and the organisations bring. entire estate where I lived was a huge playground. I I want briefly to focus on fishing. There are more learned to play football, cricket and American football. than 50 angling clubs, and the Tyne is probably the In fact, I was a happy, healthy tomboy. most successful salmon fishing river in the country at The upside of being part of a pre-computer generation present. It is a matter of concern that the Environment was that we were outside all the time. The downside was Agency has authorised north-east coastal net fishery that many of the clubs and organisations that exist licences. In the past year, 56,000 fish were taken off the today to support youngsters did not exist when I was coast of the Tyne, and that is having a massive effect on growing up. As many hon. Members know, I am the the angling industry and support for fishermen. I urge manager of a girls’ football team. I am proud to have the Minister to take that point up with the appropriate been involved with Meridian girls football club for the Environment Minister. I am grateful to the Northern past eight years. That kind of network of grass-roots Farmers and Landowners Group for making me aware support was not there when I was growing up, and we of the problems. should be grateful for the important investment in Shooting is a sport that brings in £2 billion to the sporting facilities that we now have. It is a fantastic British economy. Anyone in doubt about it should read legacy of the national lottery started under John Major’s the excellent research of Public and Corporate Economic Government and expanded under the Labour Government. Consultants, which put out a massive questionnaire in It is important to protect such investment in sporting the past year that showed more than £2 billion a year facilities. going to the UK economy, with 74,000 full-time jobs. The freedom of the outdoors lies not just in the fact That should be supported. that people can go out and explore their environment, I am a massive supporter of the work of the Royal but in the fact that it costs little to do so. I was interested Society for the Protection of Birds. For example, I very in the comments of the hon. Member for Worsley and much support its campaign on lead shot. However, its Eccles South (Barbara Keeley). She will know that I chief executive was woefully wrong when he called for agree with much of what she said, not least because moorland regulation. I take issue with that and the I serve on the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, rather surprising approach of Marks & Spencer, which which produced the report on women in sport. However, decided not to stock grouse although it will happily women are as likely as men to take part in outdoor stock farmed salmon, battery chickens and driven pheasants. recreation. Getting out into the environment, exploring That seems illogical and wrong. In reality, the people villages, paths and hills, is an activity accessible to who look after our moorlands—the owners, keepers everyone, and it should be encouraged. and people who work there—are the custodians of the I am proud to be a Kent girl, and now represent an countryside. area of Kent quite far from the coast but that has a I welcome the new chief executive of Natural England wonderful river running through it. It borders the Minister’s and hope that his new broom will bring a change of constituency. We have an excellent pathway, which will approach. It is embarrassing that a Government quango be upgraded thanks to a recent South East local enterprise such as Natural England has so little comprehension of partnership decision. We will have a full cycle path from the countryside and the way moorland is supported by Aylesford to East Farleigh. That will be a brilliant its custodians. opportunity for people to get out along the river and see 327WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 328WH

[Tracey Crouch] 3.31 pm the fantastic wildlife. We also have a project called Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): It is a pleasure Medway Valley of Visions, which has opened up the to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate entire Kent area of outstanding natural beauty for the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) on people to walk or cycle in and experience the benefits of securing the debate. the outdoors. I am the Member of Parliament for High Peak, which, as I often say, is the most beautiful constituency We have an excellent Ramblers Association, with in the country—that will be disputed, but I have not 115 members in my constituency, and they have invited had an intervention yet—and the outdoors is what we me to go out on many occasions. Unfortunately, they go do. I am a little older than my hon. Friend the Member out on a Sunday when—guess what?—I am standing at for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), but I echo the side of a football pitch with my young girls, so it is what she was saying. I grew up before computers and— not always possible for me to accept. However, the North Downs way and Pilgrims way run through my constituency. Tracey Crouch: TVs. When I was in training for the expedition—one that has nearly killed me—that my hon. Friend the Member Andrew Bingham: Not quite before television. I might for Macclesfield (David Rutley) mentioned, in which I look that old, but I assure the Chamber that I am not. I participated with the hon. Member for Leeds North was going to say that we were the “jumpers for goalposts” West (Greg Mulholland), going up Cotopaxi, one of generation, when we were always outside, playing football the world’s highest volcanoes, I got into training by just in winter and cricket in the summer. I can tell my hon. going out of my door and hill walking. Hill walking is Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South very different from mountaineering, and I intend never Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) that I have indeed made a to do the latter again, despite what I am sure will be the daisy chain as a small boy, but I will not embarrass the best efforts of my colleagues. I will stick to football, young lady I gave it to by naming her. We used to do so rather than mountaineering. much outside, whether collecting frogspawn or climbing trees and things like that. Consequently, we were healthier There are nevertheless many opportunities out there, for it. That is why the outdoors is so important. and we must protect and invest in them. That is why I wanted to speak today. I was touched by the key proposals High Peak is a beautiful area. In many respects, we sent to us for Government action on the outdoors. I do can be the playground of the nation. I am lucky; I live in not think that they are necessarily politically controversial. Chapel-en-le-Frith; I open my front door and I see hills As someone who grew up outside, the idea of increasing and green fields. Custodians of such fields were mentioned young people’s opportunities to get outside seems to me earlier, and they are incredibly important. Fields and a no-brainer. Being outdoors, as my hon. Friend the outdoor areas do not simply happen; we have to thank Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire the custodians and the farmers for doing what they do. (Simon Hart) said, enables people to concentrate in It is a huge playground that people can use and that is class and gives them educational opportunities. completely free. That is such a benefit. Among the outdoors pursuits that take place in High The hon. Member for Ogmore set out the six principles Peak was the Tour de France, which touched my well, and I want to talk about planning. In my constituency, constituency recently, creating a huge increase in cycling, we have a planning application to build 500 houses over as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for the Capstone valley. The valley is an area of outstanding Macclesfield (David Rutley). On the subject of my hon. natural beauty; it is a green lull between the Medway Friend, he accompanied me down a pothole in my towns and Maidstone. It would be a desperate shame if constituency recently. I proceeded to get stuck briefly, we start to build on that and interfere with our wonderful but having lost a bit of weight, I am sure that we could outdoor environment, which serves our ramblers and go down again and I will slither easily through that tight conservationists, people who are interested in the wildlife gap. Potholing and caving also bring huge numbers of and those who simply want to go for a run around the people into High Peak. They come to High Peak; they perimeter. We need to look at planning guidance to spend their money; they benefit the economy; and more ensure that we protect areas that actually bring in an than that, they benefit themselves. Anyone who takes income through the fact that people are getting out part in outdoor pursuits is the main beneficiary, because there—tourists and people spending in the local of the health that they bring. economy—because they are using what is in essence a free asset for society. Two weeks ago, I undertook to hike around the boundary of my constituency, which is approximately I am sure that the Minister is aware of such issues. It 65 miles, which I did over a few days. The highest point is important that she takes a co-ordinated approach that we got to was about 1,700 feet above sea level; the across central and local government. If we do not do highest point in my constituency is Kinder Scout at something to protect things, the £91 million that the 2,088 feet, so we were not quite at that height. We NHS spends every 24 hours on lifestyle-related chronic crossed the Pennine way, which my hon. Friend the conditions will merely increase. The health and economic Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) walked last year benefits are obvious. Not everyone wants to do sport—I or the year before. The scenery and the fresh air are so get that. I want to do sports; I am a sports fanatic, but good for people, but they also bring them to my outdoor recreation is something that is open to everyone constituency. I go to areas such as Castleton and the and something that they should have access to now and Hope valley in the summer and everywhere there are in future generations. people with maps around their necks, the big boots and 329WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 330WH what I call the speckly socks, all coming to the Peak I have had an interest in the outdoors for a long time, district and High Peak to get exercise. That is the through my father and mother taking me out for walks. important thing. I joined the Long Distance Walkers Association when I We hear so much on the health agenda about obesity, was 15, although it took me all the way until 2009 particularly among young people. I understand the before I finally did its 100-mile walk, which is quite a attractions of Facebook and various computer games, challenge to do in one go. That organisation, for example, but we need to encourage people to get out and about. has 1,400 trails and paths—78,000 miles—all downloadable We live in a beautiful country, so let us use it and get the as a database from its website. Other organisations are benefit. As I said, when doing so, we are also benefiting the same. our local economies. We all talk about deprivation in I am extremely grateful to the people who supported the inner cities and so on, but I prefer to talk about the Cotopaxi expedition, which has been mentioned, rural deprivation. As a result of the remoteness, we have for the Royal British Legion’s Battle Back centre. That to suffer certain things, such as not getting the same was a remarkable thing to be part of, with my hon. number of buses and so on, but we have that fantastic Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey facility on our doorsteps. We should use it to get people Crouch) and the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John back to exercising. The hon. Member for Ogmore Mann). We learned an awful lot through our experience mentioned exercise through prescription by doctors in the outdoors with servicemen and former servicemen and, when I served on the local authority, we used to who were injured and have become ill through their advocate that where we could. The Government should service to our country. We saw how they were rehabilitated look at the health benefits. through the Battle Back centre and its incredible work As has already been said, the debate could have been with adventurous training and outdoor activities. held under the heading of health, education or the I pay tribute in particular to the Carnegie Great Treasury, but we are having it under sport. There are so Outdoors faculty of Leeds Metropolitan university, or many benefits. I am conscious that we are running out Leeds Beckett university as it is becoming, in my of time, so I will not go on too long, but the benefits are constituency. Dave Bunting, who led the Army’s west immeasurable and the people who benefit the most are ridge of Everest expedition, was a wonderful leader, but those who take part. As Members of Parliament the three former and serving soldiers, Lyndon, Paul and representing seats that all have the benefits of outdoor Luke, really made the team. That is what it was about; pursuits, we can encourage people to take part in them. that is the power of the outdoors. As I said, my walk last week took me four or five days In my constituency, the Otley sailing club does wonderful and touched most parts of my constituency.The interesting work with sailing for the disabled. I was delighted that thing was the difference in the scenery and the terrain, Norman Stephens from the club got the Leeds sports whether the steep hills coming up over the Snake pass awards volunteer of the year award this year for that and down into Glossop or the valley of the Goyt. amazing work. The constituency also has the Yeadon Everywhere we looked was a photograph in the making. sailing club. That is an outdoor pursuit that I have not As others have said, the air was clear and the weather yet tried, although I am sure that I will. We also have was reasonably good, which was quite helpful, because cycling, with the incredible Tour de France and the we can get a little rain in High Peak. The benefits were local hero in Otley, Lizzie Armitstead, who has just won immeasurable, and we should try to share them with as a gold medal at the Commonwealth games to add to her many people as possible. The Government should do Olympic silver medal. She is an inspiration to local what they can to encourage people to use what I described people, especially young women, and it is important to before as the playground that we live in. It is there; it is get more young women involved in sports. Triathlon is a healthy; it is beneficial; and it is free. No one can be wonderful sport. This is not all about walking: it is excluded from using it; we need only encourage them to sometimes about running, swimming and cycling all do so. together. Locally, we have the Brownlee brothers as inspiration. It is a matter of pulling all these great 3.36 pm initiatives together. I hope that we hear from the Minister Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I reiterate that we will have a national strategy. Let us all urge all my congratulations to the hon. Member for Ogmore parties to have something about the outdoors in their (Huw Irranca-Davies) on his excellent speech, which manifestos. framed the debate. I want to add my thoughts. Part of what we need to do and what we are trying to achieve is 3.40 pm to bring everything together. There are such wonderful initiatives going on and I, too, have wonderful areas in Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve my beautiful constituency. The Leeds country way, the under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, for what I think is Meanwood valley trail and the Ebor way all run through the first time. I congratulate all hon. Members who have my constituency. I have bouldering on the Chevin and taken part in the debate. We have heard from my hon. walking in Golden Acre park or Woodhouse ridge in Friends the Members for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) the south. and for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and We must not forget about urban walking, and I tabled the hon. Members for Macclesfield (David Rutley), for an early-day motion in support of Living Streets national Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon walking month, including the walk to school week and Hart), for Hexham (Guy Opperman), for Chatham and the walk to work week—important initiatives. I also Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), for High Peak (Andrew support the Britain on Foot initiative, which I am sure Bingham) and for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). has had a huge impact since its launch, with all the They all raised similar issues, which I will try to deal organisations behind it. with as I go through my notes. 331WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 332WH

[Clive Efford] Clive Efford: Absolutely—that is important. Many benefits come from investment in coastal pathways and My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore made a the kinds of pathways that the hon. Member for Chatham passionate opening speech, entreating all of us to get and Aylesford talked about, which link up through her out there and enjoy the countryside. He has a great deal constituency. Many other hon. Members made similar of experience in sports and physical activity: he has points. The rural economy benefits from people being been employed in the industry and is an enthusiastic able to access the countryside more easily. participant and organiser. It is a tribute to his work that I have a couple more points, which I will move on to. we have had this debate and that so many people have My hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles taken part. South is a doughty fighter for women’s participation in My hon. Friend talked about the benefits that people sport, and made some important points about the lack can easily derive from outdoor activities. The “Reconomics” of commercial investment going into women’s sport. report points out that outdoor activities are often free Rugby is pointing the way, with full-time contracts for and easily accessible, and that many of the barriers to the women’s rugby sevens squad building up to the Rio taking part in physical activity are removed when enjoying Olympics. the outdoors. He is absolutely right to highlight the My hon. Friend is absolutely right to underline that benefits of investing in outdoor activities, and the report we have to keep pushing: the current participation rates demonstrates that there is a payback. are not acceptable. I go back to the point I made about Although such investment creates jobs, benefits businesses instilling confidence and consciousness about activity and is an extremely good way of bringing economic in young children at an early age. That is demonstrated activity into rural areas where it can otherwise be difficult by the fact that, sadly, as women get older and make to generate—many Governments have struggled with choices for themselves, it is often clear that sport has that—that payback is not just economic; as my hon. not been a good experience for them, and they lose Friend said, there are also benefits to the individual, interest in it. We have to challenge that. including health benefits. Outdoor activity helps people Several hon. Members called for a cross-Government be healthier and feel better in themselves, and an increasing strategy, and I agree with them. I commend to everyone amount of evidence and research is demonstrating that the Opposition consultation document, “More Sport investing in outdoor activity and encouraging people to For All”, which we published in July. Under the heading become more active has a positive impact. “Why sport matters”, we refer to the “Reconomics” Many hon. Members spoke about the cost to the figures and discuss the importance of rural tourism and economy of inactivity. People refer to obesity, but that walking, and the need to recognise those sectors as part is not the only issue. It is possible for people who are of not just a sports strategy but an economic one. I overweight to be in better physical condition than someone welcome comments from hon. Members and the Minister who does not seem from their weight to be suffering from on that document. the consequences of inactivity.It is important to encourage Our consultation document recognises that virtually people to be aware of that and to be more active. all Government Departments have a role in promoting The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South sport and physical recreational activity. The Department Pembrokeshire said that we should encourage young of Health has a role, for example; the Ministry of people to get involved in one hour of physical activity a Justice could, in terms of trying to divert young people week, and I would like to achieve that goal, starting from antisocial behaviour and provide them with the with my own children—believe me, I consider myself a opportunity to experience something they might not get complete failure in that regard. My wife and I have run many opportunities to experience otherwise. the London marathon and recognise the importance of staying active, but we are not successful in getting our Greg Mulholland: The Department for Environment, children to be active, so are not great examples. Food and Rural Affairs is clearly another of those Departments. I was lucky to join the Upper Wharfedale I am aware that nagging people does not work and so Fell Rescue Association during its new Wharfedale we need to be aware of other ways in which we can three peaks challenge. The mountain and cave rescue encourage people to be active. Inactivity is an issue, so services have not been mentioned yet today, but we we need to make sure that we focus on that first, from must ensure that they are part of the thinking, because the very earliest age. I passionately believe that we need without them we would not have the freedom we do on to equip young children, from the earliest age, to have the hills. confidence in their bodies, their core physical strength and their physical literacy, so that they can access not Clive Efford: Reference was made during the debate just sport but the sort of recreational activities that hon. to safety in the countryside; that is an important issue Members have spoken about today. and one we should all remember. Huw Irranca-Davies: I have a suggestion for my hon. New technology was referred to, but in a negative Friend: I found locking the children out of the house way, as something that discourages people from getting and pointing them in the direction of the hills worked. involved in sport. We need to look at it as a challenge On a serious point, will he also speak up for the importance and a way to provide people with information, to enable of spreading room on the coastal paths that we have easier access for them, whether that be to sports facilities talked about? That is important for people interested in or other services. That technology is an important tool mountaineering and so forth. We need not just tracks that we need to develop. and trails—the narrow two-metre paths—but wide I have one last point to make. I am grateful to my spreading room, albeit with due attention to the needs hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore for securing this of landowners, so that people can do other activities. debate. Some points have been made about sports facilities; 333WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Outdoor Sport and Recreation 334WH they are not necessarily anything to do with countryside the health context such as the “Moving More, Living recreational activities, but I would also like to raise More”campaign, which confirms genuine support, interest them. We need to ensure that the sports that are bigger and commitment in dealing with inactivity and benefiting money spinners put money back into facilities. I am from the various pluses of health, fun, sport and the thinking of football in particular—we need to make resulting economic benefits. sure that the premier league lives up to its promises The hon. Member for Ogmore, my hon. Friend the about putting money back into grass-roots sport. If Member for Macclesfield and many other hon. Members such investment goes into facilities in our communities, spoke about the six key manifesto points. I have looked all sports may benefit, not just football. at them and they are all very interesting. We are already There was a story in the papers today about Queens providing a lot of support for the outdoor recreation Park Rangers perhaps having to pay a £40 million fine sector, but we will give all the six points due and proper because it broke its financial fair play rules. If that is the consideration. Clearly, the matter is also for numerous case and that money must go to charity, I urge the other Departments, including the Department for authorities to put it back not into grass roots facilities Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Department in football, but into grass roots facilities in our communities for Transport and the Department of Health. so that people can become active in sport. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West In conclusion, I am grateful for this important debate (Greg Mulholland) referred to the Active People survey to discuss all aspects of outdoor recreation and activity, and various concerns involving the calculation of the and I urge the Minister to respond to the six points on participation figures. I will be happy to talk to Sport the agenda of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore. England and the Department of Health about how to measure some of the recreational activities in the Active People survey. 3.50 pm The hon. Member for Ogmore, the shadow Minister The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, and others referred to the “Reconomics” report and I Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): It is a great pleasure, agree that it is very good and detailed. In a good way, it Mrs Main, to serve under your chairmanship. I, too, pulls together existing research. Sport England and thank the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) VisitEngland will certainly build on the various reports. for securing this debate and for his contribution, and I The hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South thank other hon. Members for theirs. I have always (Barbara Keeley) and my hon. Friend the Member for been very lucky when it comes to the outdoors. As a Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) raised the child growing up on the edge of the Lake District, I was important issues of women in sport, participation by spoilt for choice with walking, kayaking, climbing and women and girls, lack of commercial sponsorship and the views from Blencathra to which my hon. Friend the investment in those important sectors. Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) referred. It is a stunning part of the country. I then went on to become an MP and found myself in the heart of the garden of Barbara Keeley: In the limited time, I did not mention England in the beautiful Kent countryside. I drew the that there are some informal initiatives that could do long straws there. with better support. In Blackburn, the Couch to 5K initiative is getting many people running. The wonderful As the Minister for Sport and Tourism, I want to person who runs the Twitter account, #fattymustrun, is ensure that everyone has the chances I had to participate on a mission to get 1 million larger people running. in a diverse and interesting range of sports and activities. Such initiatives should receive more support. Many Departments and many hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and Mrs Grant: The hon. Lady has made some good South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), work closely together points. The issue of women and girls in sport is an to ensure that we are all playing our part in supporting absolute priority for me. It has always been a priority, this important sector. even before I came to this place, and it will remain one, There is little time available and a lot to say, but I will mainly because of what it did for me when I was do my best to cover the points raised. Today, many hon. growing up. It provides not just health and fitness, but Members, including the hon. Member for Ogmore and self-confidence, self-esteem and the important life lessons my hon. Friends the Members for Macclesfield and for of leadership, teamwork, discipline and respect. We all Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), called on the know that and I am determined to get as many young Government to create a strategy for outdoor recreation. people as possible, not just women and girls, doing I am happy to look at that and at how we can bring sport. together in a strategy all the good work already being There is good news because 600,000 more women are done throughout the Government in different Departments. doing sport than when we bid for the Olympics in 2005. Many hon. Members acknowledged that good work However, there is no room for complacency and I is being done, but asked for more to be done and for the accept that there is still an irritating gender gap of Government to keep their foot on the pedal in relation about 1.9 million between the number of women and to recreation and outdoor activity. That is certainly the number of men doing sport. I want that to diminish. happening. VisitEngland has made a substantial investment There are some excellent projects at the moment, including in campaigns such as the Coastal Escapes campaign, Sportivate, Satellite Community, sports clubs and the the English Countryside campaign, the Rural Escapes school games in which more than 60% of schools are campaign and the Active Outdoors campaign. Sport participating. Interestingly, at county sports festival England has recently put £3 million into the British level, more girls than boys are competing. The school Mountaineering Council and there is ongoing cross- sports premium provides the opportunity to ignite an departmental ministerial involvement in campaigns in interest in sport among our children at an early age. 335WH Outdoor Sport and Recreation 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 336WH

[Mrs Grant] Deaths in Police Custody

In half an hour, I will meet the Woman in Sport Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): We now come to the Advisory Board. It is working hard on the lack of debate in the name of Shabana Mahmood on the media coverage and commercial investment. The board subject of deaths in police custody. I understand that includes people such as Judy Murray, Karren Brady, during her debate, the hon. Lady intends to refer principally Helena Morrissey, Clare Connor and others who are to the case of Kingsley Burrell. An inquest is due to working hard to deal with the lack of commercial take place into Mr Burrell’s death early next year. For involvement and media coverage, although I believe that reason, I expect hon. Members who speak or there have been improvements in what Sky and the BBC intervene in this debate to take care not to make any are doing. That is partly due to great leadership by remarks which could be construed as assigning blame Barbara Slater and people such as Clare Balding. for Mr Burrell’s death or as expressing opinions on I know very well the constituency of my hon. Friend other matters concerning his death which will be decided the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), having by that inquest. That is on the legal advice of the Clerks. spent a considerable time there when I was little. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for High 4pm Peak (Andrew Bingham) on his major marathon walk Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): during the recess when he raised a phenomenal amount It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, of money for charity. Both my hon. Friends referred to Mrs Main. I am grateful for that guidance, which I also the economic benefits of recreational activity. I agree received from the Clerks in the Table Office earlier that the great outdoors is hugely important for tourism today. I confirm that it is my intention to talk about my and the country’s economic well-being. Interestingly, constituent’s case, but to do so in a way that takes according to VisitEngland, overnight trips in Great account of the fact that there will be a coroner’s inquest Britain last year, including walking, hiking and rambling, early next year. I am grateful to have secured the debate resulted in a spend of £2.6 billion. and for the opportunity to highlight the very important This has been an important debate and for me a very issues of concern to my constituents and to one family enjoyable one to respond to. Some excellent points have in particular, whose case I have been working on for been made and I assure hon. Members that I take the some months. issues seriously. Outdoor sport and recreation are key Deaths in police custody are an issue of growing not only to our personal well-being but to the nation as concern, both in this House and across the country, and a whole. I want to maintain the good progress that has the matter has been raised several times in the House been made by encouraging even more participation in recently. In particular, there has been a recent focus on outdoor sport and recreation with all the benefits that deaths in custody in which the deceased had a mental brings: a fitter, healthier and economically stronger health illness that was not dealt with properly, either by nation. officers or by NHS staff. I understand that the Home Affairs Committee is currently looking at that issue and took evidence on it last week. However, as I said, I will focus on the case of my constituent, Kingsley Burrell, which raises other issues in relation to deaths in custody that show shocking procedural failures, which add to the pain that is suffered by families of the deceased and contribute to an erosion of trust between the community and the police. The facts of Mr Burrell’s death, as the Independent Police Complaints Commission found, are that on 27 March 2011, emergency services were called to a reported firearms incident in Ladywood in my constituency. They ascertained that the complainant was Kingsley Burrell and also found that a firearms incident had not occurred. Mr Burrell allegedly displayed symptoms of mental health illness and was therefore detained and sent to the Oleaster mental health unit. He was later transferred to the Mary Seacole mental health unit in Winson Green, again in my constituency. On 30 March, staff at that unit called police and reported an incident, after which Mr Burrell was restrained and taken to A and E, where he received treatment, but on 31 March, he was pronounced dead. Those mysterious and tragic circumstances are difficult enough for Mr Burrell’s family to cope with, but the aftermath has placed significant stress on the family, and the way in which this case and others very similar to it have progressed since the deaths occurred is completely unacceptable. It adds to the suffering of these families and I believe has a wider impact on police and community relations. 337WH Deaths in Police Custody10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Deaths in Police Custody 338WH

Kingsley’s mum, Janet Brown, told me about some of question to the Member whose debate it is. We should her experiences in the aftermath of her son’s death. She have the courtesy of allowing the hon. Lady the time to told me that the IPCC investigation into the conduct of speak. the officers took far too long. She also told me that it was a year before the IPCC asked Dorset police to look Shabana Mahmood: I am pleased that the hon. into the actions of the NHS staff involved in Kingsley’s Gentleman had the opportunity to put his constituent’s care. Both police and NHS staff had had contact with case on the record. Restraint methods are an issue in Kingsley in the lead-up to his death, and although the cases involving deaths in police custody. My focus is IPCC began immediately investigating the officers, it particularly on the way in which these investigations was a further year before anybody looked into the take place and the amount of time that it takes to conduct of the NHS staff. conduct them. There was also a delay in receiving Kingsley’s body for burial. The family had to wait 18 months before the If the process got results, answered the questions that IPCC instructed the pathologist to take samples from families have and ensured that the lessons that need to Kingsley’s body. Janet also told me that the IPCC did be learnt are, in fact, learnt, I suppose one could tolerate not want to include in its investigation Kingsley’s own the fact that sometimes the investigation takes a very accounts of what took place when he was placed in the long time. But that is demonstrably not the case in the Mary Seacole unit in Winson Green. He had been vast majority of cases involving deaths in police custody. logging his experiences in a diary and the IPCC’s initial The process takes far, far too long and it often leaves reaction was that that evidence would not be included families with more questions and much greater pain. in its investigation. The family had to meet them and That is not something that any of us should continue to insist that the commissioner, Rachel Cerfontyne, insert accept. that information into her investigation report. The impact on the wider community is also very It took the IPCC a year and four months to complete profound. Contentious deaths in police custody include its investigation into the conduct of the officers who an ever-increasing number of people with mental health had contact with Kingsley in the lead-up to his death. illnesses, and a disproportionately large number of people The Dorset police force, which did not come on to the from black and minority ethnic backgrounds—and, scene until a year after Kingsley had died—as I have sometimes, people from BME backgrounds with mental said—took a year and nine months before they reported health issues. If those cases are not seen to be taken into the actions of NHS staff who had had contact with seriously and investigations are not seen to be conducted him in the lead-up to his death. The file was passed to with due seriousness and as quickly as possible, trust in the Crown Prosecution Service in October 2013, and it the system erodes seriously, breeding justifiable anger was only a couple of months ago that the CPS made the and resentment, and it is incumbent on all of us to do decision not to prosecute any of the officers, NHS staff whatever we can to address that. or other individuals who had had contact with Kingsley Sometimes it does not seem that deaths in police in the lead-up to his death. Only now do we have a custody are treated as cases in which potentially a crime preliminary inquest hearing coming up—next month—into has been committed. The starting point should always Kingsley’s case, and the full inquest will begin in 2015, be that we simply do not know what has happened, so nearly four years after he died. all possible scenarios are on the table, but many families As far as I can tell, it does not get much more serious report that that is not how it feels to them. In practice, it for the police than when somebody dies in their custody, feels as though a judgment has already been made and on their watch, or very soon after coming into contact an end result is already in mind, long before the investigation with them, but the very clear lack of a process when a has begun. death in custody occurs and the inordinate length of Despite the more than 900 deaths in police custody time that it take to investigate these matters implies—to and several verdicts of unlawful killing, there has yet to me, my constituents, and in particular, the Burrell family—a be a single successful prosecution—a point that the casual and complacent attitude towards deeply serious hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman issues of concern to the whole community, as well as to Chishti) also raised—of any police officer involved in the deceased’s family. It is also deeply disrespectful. those deaths. Again, that does not create much confidence There seems to be no empathy in this whole process, or in the wider public that the system is robust enough to any recognition that these people are grieving, and there ensure that when things go seriously wrong, as they do is no thought given to how one of us might feel if we in many of these cases, we will get proper answers and were in the shoes of Kingsley’s family or those of other accountability. It is the lack of accountability that bothers families who have suffered in a similar way. so many of my constituents, and it is the potential for lack of accountability that is keeping Janet Brown and Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I her family awake at night. They fear that their questions congratulate the hon. Lady on bringing the matter will never be answered and someone will never be held forward for debate. She talks about other families; to account for the death of Kingsley Burrell. Colin Holt, a constituent of mine who suffered from schizophrenia, died as a result of how he was restrained There are other issues in relation to deaths in police by the police. Officers in that case were prosecuted but custody. People would expect sensitive and thorough acquitted at Maidstone Crown court, where the judge, handling of the investigation in the immediate aftermath Mr Justice Singh, said— of a death—the so-called golden hours, which are critical to evidence gathering and setting the direction and Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I ask the hon. quality of the investigation that is to follow. Again, Gentleman to return to his seat. He is making a speech, many families report that that does not happen in not an intervention—it should be an intervention and a practice. 339WH Deaths in Police Custody10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Deaths in Police Custody 340WH

[Shabana Mahmood] not learned, because the cases of deaths in police custody that keep occurring all seem to follow the same pattern, The independent charity INQUEST also tells us of and the same mistakes are often repeated. The families particular problems in relation to IPCC material and involved all report the same things going wrong in the disclosure, including ahead of inquest hearings. For a investigations. bereaved family trying to engage in an IPCC investigation, The experience of the Burrell family and the amount the organisation’s reluctance to provide early and full of time that it took for the investigations to conclude is disclosure or to explain clearly, in language that ordinary very similar to that of other families who have suffered people can understand—not lawyer-speak—why they in similar circumstances. That says to me that the phrase cannot provide that evidence at the early stages of “lessons must be learned” means nothing. Lessons are investigations, and when they expect to do so, fosters not learned, and it is about time that we started to get mistrust and is alienating and deeply unhelpful. Families that right. If people are not held accountable, if there often feel that they are not kept up to date and involved are no prosecutions and if there are no grounds for in the progress of the investigations. Of those who felt misconduct charges, at the very least we must fix the that they were kept involved and informed, many reported processes that apply when someone dies in these dissatisfaction because the information given to them circumstances, given that we know there is a problem was inadequate, difficult to obtain or delayed. with them. That is one way in which we can start to give It seems to me that we have an ad hoc and chaotic people confidence in the system again. system for investigations into deaths in police custody. A few weeks ago, Janet Brown said to me that she has There is no agreed method or structure and no checklist not yet grieved for her son and she will not do so until of what needs to happen and when. We need a uniform all her questions about his death have been answered approach that allows professional judgment to be exercised and until she feels at peace that she has done everything on a case-by-case basis, but always in the context of a she can to get justice for him. I think that making good, coherent and consistent national protocol for the structure decent people wait so long and placing them at the of the relationship between investigating officials and mercy of a very chaotic system is a scar on our collective the bereaved, and clear guidelines about the time frames conscience. I really hope that the Minister, when he that need to apply. That is the only way we can give the responds, can give Janet, the Burrell family and me families who suffer in this way some confidence that some confidence that the Government understand not they will at least understand the system and the process only the policy implications of these cases, but the that is supposed to apply, and that they can hold to emotional impact that they have, and that he and the account the individuals involved. Government will do something about it. I have mentioned the IPCC, and I believe that it has lost the confidence of the public and is not fit for purpose. It should be abolished and replaced by a new 4.17 pm police standards authority, whose job it would be to The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims take action and raise standards when policing goes (Mike Penning): It is a pleasure to serve under your wrong. Such an authority should be tasked with creating chairmanship, Mrs Main, even though it is obviously the national set of guidelines or protocols that should enormously sad that the hon. Member for Birmingham, apply to the investigation of deaths in police custody, so Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) has had to bring—quite that we can ensure that everyone knows what is meant rightly, in her opinion, and probably in mine—this case to happen and when. to Westminster Hall this afternoon. At this point, however, we still have the IPCC. I know Let me say at the outset that any death, whether or that the Government have started their own review and not in custody, is regrettable, and a death in custody is it would be helpful if the Minister, when he responds to enormously regrettable. It must be enormously traumatic my remarks, could set out exactly what is planned for for the Burrell family, and I fully appreciate the hon. that review. But whoever ultimately has responsibility Lady’s concerns. However, I cannot agree with many of for these investigations—whether the IPCC, as now, or her comments, because I think that she has almost another organisation—its key task in the aftermath of a predetermined what will be in the report from the contentious death following police contact must be to IPCC, which has not yet even been released. I know that begin immediately an independent, effective, accountable, you, Mrs Main, said that we had to be careful in talking prompt, public and inclusive investigation, so that the about the ongoing case, which is going to go before the rule of law is seen to be upheld and applied equally to coroner’s court for the inquest. The IPCC report is not all citizens, including those in police uniform. out yet. That is the independent—I stress, independent— Young constituents of mine made this point to me report. only today when I was doing an interview on a local There are some areas where I do agree, so let us do community radio station. They said, “Sometimes it the bits that I do not agree with first and then we can feels that if you wear a uniform, you are above the law. move on. I do not recognise, as a constituency MP, the You are there to enforce the law and to keep us all safe, view of the IPCC and police as being above the law. I but you should not be above it.” They make a fair point. have patrolled with the police for more than 20 years, in It sometimes feels as if officers are not held properly to many different capacities, and one of the things that I account. That relates not only to the potential for have found is this. There are, clearly, bad people within successful prosecutions and convictions but to the sense the police and bad people within our community. It is that if misconduct occurs, it will be challenged. our job to make sure that we get them out of the police; So often in relation to these cases, we say, “Lessons they should not have got there in the first place in many must be learned,” and we imply that lessons will in fact cases. But the vast majority of the police—I want to put be learned. However, in my experience the lessons are this on the record—99.9% of the police in this country, 341WH Deaths in Police Custody10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Deaths in Police Custody 342WH do a fantastic job for us, keeping us safe, not just in this was of someone from a mixed-race family. In 2013-14, place but in our homes and our businesses throughout one of the 11 people who died was from a mixed-race the country. family. The evidence speaks for itself. I understand how This is an enormously difficult subject. The hon. the situation is sometimes perceived, but it is our job as Lady used quite emotive language in her speech, and I constituency MPs to ensure that our work is based on partially understand why, but not fully. May I touch, evidence rather than perception. It is the job of the before I make progress with some other things, on the police to do the same. question of deaths in custody of people from the black I am a new Minister in the Home Office, and I make and ethnic minority community? When I first thought the hon. Lady the same offer that my predecessor made: about deaths in custody, my first thought was that that it would be good to meet outside the format of a debate meant people who were being held by police in custody to discuss the issues that she has raised. It is difficult for cells, but that is not always what happens. It is important me to comment on the case, because the inquest will to put on record that a death in custody occurs where soon come before the coroner’s court and because the the police have come into contact with somebody, even IPCC has not yet published its report. briefly, who has subsequently died. The IPCC will There is no doubt that a review is needed into the immediately become involved in such cases. The cases IPCC’s work. That is not a criticism of the commission, are sometimes enormously complex, much more so but we need to look carefully at the nature of the work than I understand, although I am not as close to the that comes before it. As a constituency MP, I regularly case as the hon. Lady is. The way in which the news is see cases where my constituents say, “I would like this communicated to families and loved ones is critical, and case to go to the IPCC,” but I often look at the cases that is something that I am interested in looking at. I and think that they should have been resolved with the will come on to the IPCC review in a moment. constabulary, rather than going to the IPCC. I am I will return to the hon. Lady’s comments about looking at guidance on that matter at the moment, and deaths in custody, particularly regarding people from it will form part of the review of what the IPCC should the black and ethnic minority community. The IPCC look at. These cases are often complex, as is the case did a 10-year study on deaths in custody between 1989 that the hon. Lady has raised. Before anything could and 2008-09, and it found that 22 of those who died happen, it was essential to ensure that any trial was not during that period were black. The view expressed in prejudiced, which is why the Crown Prosecution Service the report, which is a public document, is that that was considered the matter before it progressed to an inquest. in line, sadly, with the ethnic make-up of the detainee Of course, the IPCC now needs to report. population. In 2010-11, there were, overall, 20 deaths in I do not believe that the previous Administration custody, one of which was sadly of an individual from thought that the IPCC was flawed or broken and needed the black community. In 2013-14, there were a total of tearing up and throwing away, and I do not think that 11 deaths in custody; clearly that is still too many, but either. Is the IPCC perfect? No, it is not. Do we need to the number of deaths has nearly halved since 2011. One do some work with it? Yes, we do. of those deaths was, in the terminology used by the Without going into the details of the case that the report—I do not like this terminology—of a mixed-race hon. Lady has raised, there is one area that we need to detainee. I am only using the language that has been work on, which has been the poor relation for many given to me by lawyers, and I apologise for it. I am not years. When I was a fireman in Essex, I used to go to very politically correct myself. road traffic collisions, which used to be called road To recap, in 2010-11, there were 20 deaths in custody; traffic accidents. If someone was badly injured in an in 2011-12, there were 15; in 2012-13, there were also 15; incident, we would extricate them as quickly as we and in 2013-14, there were 11. I think that the report of could, the medics would do their job and the person this debate will show that the hon. Lady spoke about would be taken to hospital for the treatment that they “growing” deaths in custody, although I may not be needed. The simple fact is that if someone has a mental using her exact words. I know that black and ethnic illness, invariably the police will be called and the individual minority groups feel that the situation is disproportionate, will end up in a cell rather than somewhere where they but the evidence that has been presented to me does not can get the medical help that they need. Is that the fault support that view. of the police? No, because their job is not to diagnose a mental illness but to make sure that the individual and Shabana Mahmood: I would like to clarify that I said the public are safe. that there was growing concern about deaths in police I was on patrol in Holborn only the other day when custody. I was talking not about the number of deaths we received a call and went out. We thought that we that occur, but about the over-representation of people would be dealing with a domestic incident, but the with mental health issues and about how trust in the gentleman was having what his family described as an police is being eroded in BME communities. episode. The police did everything in their powers not to arrest him, but to take him to a hospital where he Mike Penning: I understand the point that the hon. could get the correct treatment. I stress that the correct Lady makes, and I will come on to talk about some work treatment is important. I have been working with the that I have been doing with a Minister in the Department Department of Health to ensure that in such circumstances, of Health on mental illnesses. I repeat that the evidence people are not simply taken to an A and E department shows that there were 20 deaths in custody in 2010-11—too that does not have the required expertise, in which case many—one of which was of someone from the black they will be back out on the streets again five minutes later. community. Of the 15 people who died in 2011-12, one My view, and the view of the Health Minister with was a black individual and one was from a mixed-race responsibility for the initiative, is that it is crucial that family. In 2012-13, there were 15 deaths, one of which people with mental illnesses are treated as well as those 343WH Deaths in Police Custody 10 SEPTEMBER 2014 344WH

[Mike Penning] Improving School Leadership with any other illnesses. People with mental health 4.30 pm issues may also have learning difficulties and addictions Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) to alcohol or drugs. The police still have a responsibility, (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, however, not only to try to understand the circumstances Mrs Main. I am pleased to have secured this important of people who are brought before them, but to make debate on how we can improve leadership in our schools. sure that they can be taken to trained individuals with The purpose of this debate is not to criticise any of the the right expertise. There are interesting projects going heads in my constituency, or anywhere else for that on at the moment. In Herefordshire, experts in the field matter, but to explore how we can build and improve on such as nurses with mental health experience go out on what we already have. patrol, particularly on Friday nights. It is important to have that sort of expertise alongside our patrolling Every single teacher at whatever level, from newly police, and it provides a source of knowledge to ensure qualified teacher to senior, experienced head, needs our that the public feel safe. thanks, support and praise for all they do to educate our children and teach our country’s next generation of I think that there is a real problem with the public, as wealth creators. My remarks, therefore, are designed to well. The Olympics clearly showed us that public be constructive rather than critical, and I hope they will understanding of people with physical disabilities had be heard in the spirit of constructive joint working. really moved forward. The Paralympics was a great way of showing the world the wonderful things that people Education is a vocation, and I know of no teacher with long-term conditions and disabilities can do. However, anywhere who entered the profession for any reason all the evidence suggests that, although people with other than to impart knowledge and support and nurture physical disabilities have seen such benefits, people with our young people. Teachers, and I hope all those listening mental health issues and learning difficulties have not. to this debate, recognise that education is the greatest We, as politicians, should do everything we can to gift we can give. We have all heard that before, and I tackle that. know it sounds corny, but the problem is that it is true because, once the gift of education has been given, it I would love to have gone into a lot more detail, but cannot be taken away—it does not break and it will not with the ongoing investigations into the case, it would fade. have been difficult for me to do so. I have every sympathy Education is the foundation stone on which one’s with the family. If I was the constituency MP, I would future success is built. It is the base from which almost be sitting where the hon. Lady is sitting and asking anything is possible and from which people can realise exactly the sorts of questions that she has asked, but I their full potential. All that is delivered by some truly always stand at the Dispatch Box—or, in this case, in dedicated and inspirational people who are found at this wonderful room. I just managed to get here in time, every level of education in some truly excellent schools. even though I went to the usual one first; it is a good job Good education comes from good schools, which from I always turn up early. my experience are led by good leaders. We are dealing with incredibly complicated issues, In my constituency we are fortunate. We have some which will not be resolved in a half-hour debate. I look truly exceptional school leaders. Yes, it is true that forward to meeting with the hon. Lady, and perhaps education in Basildon and Thurrock has not always with the family, to see how we can move forward. Let us been as good as it could have been, but the leaders that first see what we agree on, and then work on the other we now have in place, and the support structures that issues as we go forward. surround them, will deliver, and are delivering, improving education for my constituents. There are too many good leaders to name them all, but I will pay tribute to a couple. First, I highlight the extraordinary dedication of Dr Sophina Asong, head teacher of Gable Hall school in Corringham. The area is like many others in the country, but unlike many areas—where the average proportion of five A* to C grades, including maths and English, is just under 60%—Gable Hall was pleased this year to achieve 74% with five A* to C grades, including maths and English. I say “pleased” but the school was not satisfied; it knows it can do better, and Dr Asong and her incredible staff assure me that things will get better. I am sure we want to see such dedication and determination in all our schools. Dr Asong—I hope she will not mind my saying this—is a force of nature that I would like to see bottled and delivered to all parts of our school system, but I also pay tribute to the new principal of Woodlands school in Basildon, Karen Kerridge. She took over the leadership at possibly the most difficult time that the school has ever faced. Less than a year after a disastrous Ofsted report, Karen has come in and worked tirelessly to turn the school around. 345WH Improving School Leadership10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Improving School Leadership 346WH

Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): I thank my hon. I would like to celebrate all the schools that are doing Friend for securing this debate. It is important that we well in my constituency, but I am conscious of time and have outstanding leaders. Will he join me in congratulating I want to hear what the Minister has to say. I am Guy Shears, who turned around RSA academy Arrow fortunate to have some great leaders who are helping to Vale in Redditch? Could such outstanding head teachers ensure that education in my constituency is improving, be used as mentors for other head teachers? but unfortunately that is not the case everywhere. Unfortunately, there are too many schools that may not Stephen Metcalfe: I thank my hon. Friend for her have the right leader with all the right skills and talents intervention and add my congratulations to Guy on all to deliver the kind of education that our children need, his work. Yes, head teachers with such skills should be and often that is not the leader’s fault. used more widely in our education system so that we maximise the potential benefit to the wider teaching More than ever before, we have to deliver a world-class community. Karen Kerridge did that, too. She came in education, and we need able leaders to do that. It is a from another school to try to help Woodlands, and it is tough, difficult job that is not suitable for everyone. The remarkable that in less than a year she has turned the job is different from any other in our education system. school around so that, rather than being inadequate, it As the system is currently designed, however, if someone now only requires improvement. That may not sound wants career progression, the obvious path is to head fantastic, but it is one of the fastest turnarounds of a towards taking up a management role and, ultimately, school, and I am confident that under her leadership it their own headship. may not be long before we once again have a good But, as I said, being an inspirational, dynamic and school, which would be entirely down to the fortitude consistent head teacher is like no other role in our and dedication of Karen and all her staff. education system. Head teachers have to manage complex Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): My hon. and large budgets, perhaps a large staff body, premises Friend has referred to getting good advice from other and a range of other challenges. They are running schools on improving performance. Is he aware that medium-sized businesses, and they have to be able to some schools have teaching school status? I draw his deal with that fairly, consistently and in an orderly and attention to Shenley Brook End school in my constituency, professional manner, and many, many do. Despite all which has been a teaching school since 2012. The school’s the training available and all the mentoring that can be leadership and training centre has helped guide and given, we occasionally find that the wrong person has coach more than 2,000 teachers from 25 schools. Such found themselves in an unsuitable job. centres are a good way of imparting leadership skills. I suspect it is a bit like being an MP. Whatever a person imagines the job to be, it is not until they are Stephen Metcalfe: Teaching school status is an important actually in the hot seat that they fully understand everything part of improving the quality of teaching and the it involves and know whether they are personally suited experience that teachers get before they go off into their to it. However, an MP can step down at an election and own schools. That reform has been important, and it is pursue a different path without it being the end of their an excellent innovation. working life, but head teachers who feel they are in the Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate wrong role have nowhere to go, which can cause problems the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. both for them and for the school. I agree with everything he has said so far, which is good. There are three options when that happens, none of Able leaders, as he rightly says, are important—I which is a satisfactory solution. First, if the governors congratulate those in my constituency—and they need recognise that the wrong person is in the job they can the best possible teams. Does he agree that there is a initiate capability proceedings, which is a painful, devastating strong case for the most challenged schools serving and destabilising experience for all involved, including some of our most disadvantaged areas to be able to pay the staff and students. It may force out of the profession teachers more than schools in other areas so that they an otherwise excellent teacher, which is a loss both for attract the best to do the toughest job? them and for the wider education system. Nobody gets to be a head teacher without being a good teacher and Stephen Metcalfe: I completely agree with the right an asset to the system, and it would be a shame to lose hon. Gentleman that it is about the team. Successful all their talents simply because they lack some of the schools tend to have a good head teacher with a good talents required to do a specific job. team around them, which is often down to the head teacher’s inspirational leadership. I agree that, where a Secondly, there is the “do nothing” option: the school school faces particular challenges, it is not a bad idea coasts along, slowly declining, because the issue is put for it to be able to be flexible in the pay and conditions on the “too difficult to tackle” pile. Supporters of the that it offers staff. school increasingly have to defend the declining performance Speed is paramount, which is why the achievements and prop up the senior management team until finally a at Woodlands school are so important. Students mostly devastating Ofsted report is published that presents get only one chance of an education, and for every day, incontrovertible evidence that the school is not performing week or month that they are not receiving a good as it should. Suddenly, the head teacher is vilified and education, we are doing them an incredible disservice, forced to leave the school and probably the profession, potentially damaging their future prospects and hampering possibly to retire. Again, the damage done can be their chances of reaching their full potential. We should incalculable for the school, which may have failed students celebrate the fact that Karen Kerridge has set the school for years; for the head teacher, who has left a profession back on the right path in less than a year, and we should they probably love; and for the community they served, thank her. which feels let down. 347WH Improving School Leadership10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Improving School Leadership 348WH

[Stephen Metcalfe] The Government have done much to improve our education system, for which I am grateful. I therefore Finally, there is the “hope and pray” approach: the hope the Minister considers my remarks to be a useful governors hope the individual will move on or retire addition to the debate that will help us ensure our while they try to support those around the head until schools have the best possible leaders. People who find things get better. Unfortunately, that rarely happens, so themselves in the wrong role should have constructive one of the other options is usually adopted. options open to them that do not result in their leaving The problem with all those approaches is that even if the profession. We must equip our governors with the the ultimate outcome is good, it can take years to right tools to help that change happen. I look forward deliver. However, there is no time to waste when delivering to the Minister’s response. education. We need a system that supports great teachers, and encourages and nurtures fantastic leaders, but is 4.46 pm fleet of foot enough to act rapidly if somebody finds The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): It is a themselves in a role they are not suited for and does not pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. result in their having to leave the profession. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South I turn to the role of the governors and the governing Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) on body. Having been a governor, I know how dedicated, securing the debate and on making his case so powerfully. selfless and hard-working they are. The role is becoming I agree with his points about national education policy ever more demanding and requires a high degree of and the importance of good leadership and governance. professionalism to be carried out well. Governors are I am delighted that he picked today to hold this debate the unsung heroes of our education system, and I want because this morning the Government announced a to thank them personally for what they do and apologise series of further measures to strengthen school leadership. if they feel my earlier remarks were critical of them. He had extraordinary foresight in securing this opportunity, The problem is that, as schools’ independence increases, which allows me to put on the record some of the the role of the governing body grows in importance, announcements we made today. and it falls to the governors to hold the head and the I am pleased to hear about the progress made by a school to account more than ever before. number of the schools in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and I join him in congratulating the schools whose Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): I congratulate my success he celebrated. He mentioned Gable Hall school, hon. Friend on securing this debate. He is making an which secured a good set of GCSE results this year. A important and excellent point about the impact of not signal of its success is the fact that it does not see that as taking action. I want to strengthen his point by saying an end destination, but as something to build on; it is that if governing bodies do not make that decision fantastic that it still wants to aim higher. Woodlands early, it becomes a much bigger problem for them, the school, which came from a different starting point, has school and the wider community. moved out of the “inadequate” category into “requires improvement” in a short period of time. Like my hon. Stephen Metcalfe: I thank my hon. Friend for his Friend, I wish it well in moving further up to “good” excellent point. I was just coming to that issue. He is and beyond in the future. It can be a difficult and entirely right that speed is important, but that means time-consuming process to take over and turn around that governors have to make some difficult decisions. schools in the bottom category, so it is good that that happened so quickly. Mr Andrew Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman agree I was also pleased to hear from other hon. Friends that schools serving the most disadvantaged communities about the progress of schools in their areas—both in often find it hard to get the governors they need for the Redditch and in some of the teaching schools in the accountability process? One of the best things businesses country. I agree with the right hon. Member for Oxford can do to help our education system is to encourage East (Mr Smith) about the need to ensure that schools more members of staff to become governors in such in some of our more disadvantaged communities have schools. the resources and flexibility to pay more to attract outstanding leaders and teachers. Stephen Metcalfe: The right hon. Gentleman makes My hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and an excellent point. He admirably covered a point that I East Thurrock struck the right balance when he praised included in my speech. MPs have a role to play in that the schools that are doing well. If we are to be listened process. We should write to the larger organisations in to in Westminster when we talk to schools that are not our constituencies to remind them that they and the doing so well and challenge them to do better, we must wider community benefit when they allow their staff to show that we have balance and are willing to praise lead schools and play a part in the local community. success as well as pick up the schools that are not doing That excellent point cannot be repeated too often. so well. My hon. Friend was right not to be complacent For governors who lead schools that have greater in that regard. He has many outstanding schools in his independence, it is becoming harder to be all friends constituency, including Great Berry primary school, together. They may duck away from making tough or Lee Chapel primary school and the children’s support unpleasant decisions if they are too close to the senior centre at Langdon Hills, which are all rated “outstanding” management team and the head. I am not criticising by Ofsted. However, 16, or 44%, of the schools in his governors, but I want to ensure they are equipped with constituency are in the “requires improvement” category, the tools they need to play their important role of which used to be “satisfactory”. ensuring the leadership of our schools is the best it can My hon. Friend is right that Ofsted is sending out a be. clear signal, for the reasons that he gave. We no longer 349WH Improving School Leadership10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Improving School Leadership 350WH accept that satisfactory is good enough. Most young I understand my hon. Friend’s concern about ensuring people get only one chance at education, so it has to be that we have head teachers in place who are fully high-quality. Therefore, where schools could be doing equipped to carry out the role successfully and to better and require improvement, we should be challenging support all pupils in their care. That is why excellent and supporting them to do so in exactly the way that he school governance, which he also spoke about, is described, and that is also why we have introduced some paramount. It is essential that school governors have changes today, which I will outline shortly. the right skills and knowledge to support and challenge I commend not only the schools in my hon. Friend’s the performance of head teachers, which is why we are constituency but the excellent work of schools and also investing in more effective school governance. Our school leaders right across the country. Those leaders national leaders of governance programme identifies have been turning around schools with their commitment, highly effective chairs of governors, who use their skills dedication and unrelenting focus on pupil outcomes. and experience to support chairs of governors in other Leading a school is a very challenging role to take on, schools and academies, to increase leadership capacity but it is also absolutely critical. It is very rare to find an and improve school performance. outstanding school that does not have outstanding Of course, we need many thousands of governors leadership. right across the country, which is a huge recruitment Great school leaders can transform schools, but they challenge, not least, as the right hon. Member for cannot do so alone. They need their staff to engage in Oxford East indicated, in more disadvantaged communities, the pursuit of educational excellence, and of course where we have to ensure that the quality of governance part of a school leader’s job is to motivate and inspire is very high. He was quite right to say that we need to staff and to recruit high-quality staff. That is why great call on businesses, other professional groups and other school leaders are at the heart of this Government’s groups with people who have high aspirations who are education reform programme. willing to become governors and chairs of governors in these areas. Our schools White Paper, “The Importance of Teaching”, put schools and school leaders in the driving seat of our My hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and reforms and gave them more powers and more support. East Thurrock may have seen that we have also convened It set out our vision for a self-improving school system a review group made up of highly respected professionals whereby our best schools and leaders drive improvement to review head teacher standards, to ensure that those from within, working together to spread best practice, standards set out the behaviour, qualities and knowledge knowledge and experience, to the benefit of all schools. expected of modern head teachers. We have made good progress on that agenda and we The Government also recognise that some schools should celebrate the incredible achievements of schools, face particularly challenging circumstances. This is why teachers and pupils, not only in my hon. Friend’s we are funding the Teaching Leaders charity and the constituency but across the country. Schools in England Future Leaders Trust, so that they can work closely are now performing better than ever before. Ofsted with staff in schools serving disadvantaged communities. figures show that 83% of schools in England have Teaching Leaders identifies and develops middle leaders, achieved good or outstanding ratings for leadership such as heads of department or year, to improve teaching and management, with 80% of schools in England now in the most challenging schools and for the pupils who judged to be good or outstanding overall. will benefit most from such improvement. Owing to the impact that the programme has demonstrated, we recently The sophistication and diversity of school leadership expanded its provision in secondary schools so that across England has also grown and matured over many more children can benefit from it. From this month, a years, with new approaches emerging in multi-academy new Teaching Leaders programme for the primary sector trusts and elsewhere. For example, sponsored academy starts, which will benefit some 160,000 children by chains are pioneering new kinds of leadership development. developing the skills of their middle leaders. Schools everywhere can learn a good deal from the approach taken by chains of three or more sponsored By funding the Future Leaders Trust, we are also academies, whereby they can grow their own leadership. developing the skills of aspiring head teachers who In this type of school, middle and senior leaders enjoy want to work in some of the most challenging schools more opportunities for both internal and external coaching in the country. So far, 85 participants in the Future and mentoring. These chains also tend to have a chief Leaders programme have gone on to become head executive who is actively engaged with developing leaders, teachers in these challenging schools, many of which establishing a culture of ambition and success for staff. are outside London and in areas where other school improvement initiatives in the past have been less prevalent. At a national level, the Government have invested in professional qualifications for middle leadership, senior We are going even further than that, which is why I leadership and aspiring heads. Since some of these am particularly delighted that we have this debate today. programmes were launched in March 2013, more than Only this morning, we launched the new Talented Leaders 5,200 participants have commenced the middle leader programme, which is designed to transform the life programme, and more than 5,400 participants have chances of pupils in the areas of greatest need across commenced the senior leader programme. In addition, the country, where we do not have enough outstanding more than 2,300 aspirant head teachers have commenced schools or enough outstanding head teachers. the headship programme since its relaunch in autumn This new programme will recruit 100 outstanding 2012, with a further 640 commencing the programme deputy heads and heads to lead schools in some of the this autumn. Feedback from participants shows that most challenging communities, where there is a shortage these programmes help to prepare our school leaders of of good leadership. We are starting recruitment today, the future and enable them to develop the skills, knowledge and the first placements will start in September 2015 and confidence that they need to thrive in their schools. and September 2016. Those placements are designed to 351WH Improving School Leadership10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Improving School Leadership 352WH

[Mr David Laws] Secretary of State for Education announced the 600th teaching school in England, which is a fantastic milestone be voluntary—we will engage the parts of the country in a programme that is less than four years old. that most need them—and to be long-term initiatives, As part of this morning’s announcement, which I not short-term initiatives, to grow the leaders in the referred to earlier, we recognised the achievements of schools that we put them into. both the national leaders of education programme and I urge hon. Friends and hon. Members who think the national support schools programme. The fantastic that their constituencies are in parts of the country that success of those programmes comes down to the excellent have a shortage of outstanding leadership to consider school leaders who have come forward to take on roles applying for their areas to be part of this programme, so in them, collaborating with and supporting staff in that we can get some of these outstanding leaders to the other schools that require improvement or that are in parts of the country where they are most needed. special measures, to try to help them to improve. Another reason why we have this close focus on Today, I announced our intention to increase the number school leadership is the impact that such leadership has of NLEs from the present figure of 1,000 to 1,400 by on driving better outcomes for our most vulnerable March 2016, to ensure that more schools and more children and young people. Great school leaders achieve parts of the country can benefit from NLEs, because at great outcomes for all their pupils, whatever their the moment—sadly—there are too few of them in large background. To do that, they close the gap in achievement parts of the country, and consequently schools and between pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds and local authorities in those areas that need more support their peers. This issue is close to my heart and the heart find it difficult to identify those individuals. of the Government, which is why we are very proud to We also announced today a new school-to-school have helped to introduce the pupil premium. It was support fund, which will be worth £13 million over the introduced in 2011 and has now risen to £2.5 billion per next two years and which will help to fund those NLE year, providing a massive amount of resources in schools deployments, so that the schools that have NLEs will with disadvantage, to ensure that all those schools have receive money to help them to support other schools. the money they need to try to close that gap. I note that Susan Jackson and her staff at the Lee The recent Ofsted report on the use of the pupil Chapel primary school, which is in the constituency of premium highlighted increasingly good practice in the my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and schools that are using this money very effectively, to East Thurrock, work in their roles as an NLE, national close the gap between them and other schools. We are support school and teaching school, collaborating with committed to giving schools freedom in how they use other schools to drive pupil outcomes. I am very grateful the pupil premium; but through the Ofsted process, we to teaching schools across the country, including in my will hold them to account, to ensure that the gap is hon. Friend’s constituency, which are doing this excellent closed. Our best school leaders are now driving work. improvements, which can be seen not only in the expansion In conclusion, I thank my hon. Friend for securing of academies and free schools but in the increase in the this debate, which is not only very important for his number of schools across the country that are supporting constituents but very timely, given the actions that the other schools. Government are taking. I hope that in the future we can Teaching schools were raised by my hon. Friend the build on this strategy across the country, including in Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). They his constituency, so that even more schools can achieve are outstanding schools that have a strong track record good and outstanding ratings. of working with other schools to bring about improvement. They are the principal network through which support 5pm and development for middle and senior leadership is Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order now being offered. Last week, my right hon. Friend the No. 10(13)). 37WS Written Statements10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Statements 38WS

powers to commission an independent inspection of the Written Statements council. In parallel, I would also be considering the implications of the report’s findings for all local authorities Wednesday 10 September 2014 in England. With clearly documented failures by the council on so many levels, the rare step of a statutory inspection is in the public interest. I have now decided to exercise my TREASURY powers under section 10 of the Local Government Act 1999 to appoint Louise Casey CB to carry out an inspection of the compliance of Rotherham metropolitan UK Guarantees Scheme borough council with the requirements of part 1 of that Act, in relation to the council’s exercise of its functions on governance, children and young people, and taxi and The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): private hire licensing. The Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Act 2012 requires the Government to report any financial assistance given In undertaking her inspection, I have directed her to under the UK Guarantees scheme. The scheme provides consider whether, in exercising its functions on governance, a sovereign-backed guarantee to help infrastructure children and young people, and taxi and private hire projects raise debt finance. A commercial fee is charged licensing, the local authority: to the borrower for the guarantee, determined by the allows for adequate scrutiny by councillors; nature of the guarantee and the risk inherent in the project. covers up information, and whether “whistleblowers”are silenced; The Government can confirm they have approved took and continues to take appropriate action against staff guarantees under the UK Guarantees scheme for Ineos guilty of gross misconduct; Grangemouth ethane import and storage facilities was and continues to be subject to institutionalised political (£230 million/¤285 million) and Speyside CHP plant correctness, affecting its (£48.2 million). decision making on sensitive issues; Ineos Grangemouth will be constructing new port facilities, a new ethane tank and associated modifications undertook and continues to undertake sufficient liaisons with to the KG ethylene cracker. This will reduce dependency other agencies, particularly the police, local health partners, and the safeguarding board; on feedstock from the North sea through the import and storage of ethane from the US. The guarantee took and continues to take sufficient steps to ensure only “fit issued to Speyside will be used for the construction of a and proper persons” are permitted to hold a taxi licence; combined heat and power plant which will generate is now taking steps to address effectively past and current both electricity and heat. weaknesses or shortcomings in the exercise of its functions, and has the capacity to continue to do so. As the statute allows, I also intend to appoint on her COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT recommendation, assistant inspectors to ensure that she has all the skills and experience available to her which Governance in Local Government she believes are necessary for her to fulfil her remit. Louise Casey will report to me by 30 November 2014, or such later date as I may agree with her, whether or The Secretary of State for Communities and Local not the council is meeting this duty to secure continuous Government (Mr Eric Pickles): One of the most important improvement in respect of its governance, the services it duties of local authorities is the protection of vulnerable delivers for children and young people, and taxi and children. Professor Jay’s recent inquiry into child sexual private hire licensing. exploitation in Rotherham has painted a horrific and awful picture that the council utterly failed its children. I have appointed Louise Casey to carry out this sensitive task rigorously and independently. I am confident As Professor Jay noted: that with her track record of working in public service “No one knows the true scale of child sexual exploitation in and particularly in challenging established practices in Rotherham over the years. Our conservative estimate is that regard to the most vulnerable—for example, in reducing approximately 1400 children were sexually exploited over the full Inquiry period, from 1997 to 2013. In just over a third of rough sleeping, as Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses cases, children affected by sexual exploitation were previously and in her current role as head of the troubled families known to services because of child protection and neglect. It is programme—she has the experience and skills to undertake hard to describe the appalling nature of the abuse that child a robust and independent inspection which will provide victims suffered. They were raped by multiple perpetrators, a full and comprehensive report on these matters. trafficked to other towns and cities in the north of England, abducted, beaten, and intimidated. There were examples of Beyond the terms of reference I have set out in this children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with statement, it is for Louise Casey, with any assistant being set alight, threatened with guns, made to witness brutally inspectors I appoint on her recommendation, to decide violent rapes and threatened they would be next if they told how to carry out this inspection, and her findings and anyone. Girls as young as 11 were raped by large numbers of conclusions will be a matter for her alone. male perpetrators. This abuse is not confined to the past but continues to this day.” Louise will continue to lead the troubled families Following the publication of the Jay report, my right programme. While she is carrying out the inspection hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced to the in Rotherham, arrangements are being put in place House on 2 September that I was minded to use my to ensure that progress on troubled families is maintained. 39WS Written Statements10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Statements 40WS

If I am satisfied that an authority is failing to comply We cannot undo the permanent harm that these with its duty under part 1 of the 1999 Act, that Act children have suffered. But we can and should take gives me the power to statutorily intervene in that steps to ensure that this never happens again and make authority. Intervention may take a number of forms, sure that all local authorities deliver on their essential including directing the authority to take any action that duty to protect vulnerable children. I consider necessary or expedient to secure its compliance with the 1999 Act duty, or directing that certain of the authority’s functions be undertaken by me or by a HOME DEPARTMENT person—a commissioner—appointed by me for that purpose. The inspection report that I receive will assist Immigration and Nationality Services me in reaching my view as to whether or not Rotherham metropolitan borough council is meeting its duty under part 1 of 1999 Act. The Minister for Security and Immigration (James As part of my consideration of the implications of Brokenshire): I am today announcing some changes to the Jay report for all authorities in England, I shall be fees for immigration and nationality applications made asking Louise Casey, in addition to and outside the to the Home Office. The Government review these fees scope of the statutory inspection, to explore the links on a regular basis and make appropriate changes as between Rotherham metropolitan borough council and necessary. The amended regulations are for fees set at or the police and justice system, and highlight issues that below the cost of processing the relevant applications. local authorities, police forces and the justice system We are making some targeted amendments to support should consider in their work on child sexual exploitation, the implementation of provisions in the Immigration and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary welcomes Act 2014, including expanding the list of application this. routes required to pay a fee for the enrolment of biometrics. We are also taking the opportunity to amend one other I will also ask Louise Casey to report to me on fee to support economic growth. whether she considers, as a result of undertaking the inspection or otherwise, there are any further matters Further details of the changes are provided in the which might appropriately be drawn to the attention of explanatory memorandum for the regulations. The authorities and other local service providers generally Government intend to bring most of these amendments to assist them to improve the delivery of their services, into force from 1 October, though some of the new fees particularly those relating to children and young people. will come into effect later in the year to align with changes to processes. An updated fees table can be In order to assist Louise Casey and help my consideration found on the Home Office website: https://www.gov.uk/ of the wider issues I will be writing to all leaders of government/publications/visa-regulations-revised-table principal councils asking them to consider the implications Full details on how to apply for all of the Home of the Jay report for their own authority. Office’s products and services will be provided on the I will make a statement to the House in due course on Home Office website: the completion of this work and after due consideration https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk- of the report. visas-and-immigration 13P Petitions10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Petitions 14P

should not be denied the investment necessary for a Petitions resilient rail service to Paddington. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Wednesday 10 September 2014 Commons urges the Government to do what is necessary to make sure that the rail link from Penzance to Paddington is one that passengers can rely on. PRESENTED PETITION And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Andrew Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor George, Official Report, 1 July 2014; Vol. 583, c. 864.] Human Rights in Jammu and Kashmir [P001362] Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: The Petition of residents of the UK, After 8 weeks of repairs, the train line at Dawlish - Declares that the Petitioners believe that Kashmiris connecting the South West to the rest of the country - suffer daily human rights abuses; further that the Petitioners was reopened in time for the Easter holidays. The line believe that more needs to be done for Jammu and was damaged during the winter storms earlier in the Kashmir to progress the right of self-determination for year. As a result, a raft of measures were put in place to all Kashmiris; and further that a local Petition in Chesham help people continue to travel, including buses to provide on this matter has received over 228 signatures. alternative transport, discounted fares and additional The Petitioners therefore request that the House of flights out of Newquay. Commons hold a debate on the human rights situation The impact of the extreme weather shows the importance in Jammu and Kashmir. of making our railways strong enough to weather any And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by storm. That is why we announced a £31 million package Mrs Cheryl Gillan.] of improvements and asked Network Rail to examine [P001388] every option to ensure the resilience of this route. This is looking at both new and reopened alignments as well as an option to make the existing route more resilient. A OBSERVATIONS further objective is to maintain rail connectivity to the coastal communities of Dawlish and Teignmouth. Network TRANSPORT Rail has now produced the initial report, and the full report is due later in the autumn. Rail link from Penzance to Paddington The Government will then study the full report and The Petition of residents of St Ives constituency and respond appropriately. As stated by the Prime Minister others, when re-opening the Dawlish rail line: “Our focus now moves to the medium and long-term looking Declares that the Petitioners believe that if the at what can be done ...to make the current coastal route more Government can spend up to £50 billion on high speed resilient and, by the autumn, understand what the best viable rail investment to the north (HS2), the people of Cornwall relief route might be.”

593W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 594W

John Thurso: No salary is paid to members of the Written Answers to Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy for carrying out their responsibilities on the Commission; to date a Questions total of £3,819.03 in travel expenses has been incurred.

Wednesday 10 September 2014 ATTORNEY-GENERAL Energy

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Simon Kirby: To ask the Attorney-General what steps he is taking to reduce energy costs in the Law Officers’ Clerk of the House Departments; and if he will make a statement. [208334] The Solicitor-General: Since 2010-11 the Crown Michael Fabricant: To ask the hon. Member for Prosecution Service (CPS) has reduced its energy emissions Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing by approximately 35%. This has been achieved through the House of Commons Commission, whether each the reduction in the size of its estate and various energy member of the appointment advisory panel for the efficiency measures. During the same period electricity Clerk and Chief Executive of the House was required prices have risen by approximately 33% and gas by 47%. to declare previous contacts with external candidates. However, the reduction in usage has meant that total [207921] CPS energy costs have reduced by 3% over this period. More details about CPS energy costs can be found on John Thurso: Panel members were not formally asked page 20 of its 2013-14 Annual Report and Accounts to declare previous contacts. However, during the interview which is available online at: process and as part of the panel discussion a number of https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ panel members did declare their prior knowledge of attachment_data/file/339509/ external candidates. 41097_HC_6_CPS_Print_Ready.pdf The Serious Fraud Office (SFO) is committed working Michael Fabricant: To ask the hon. Member for towards meeting the Greening Government Commitment Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing targets which started on 1 April 2011 with a baseline the House of Commons Commission, whether expressions period of 2009-10. The SFO is now ahead of all of its of interest were invited for persons to serve on the targets including those relating to energy costs. This is appointment advisory panel for Clerk and Chief Executive principally due to a move from its old premises on two of the House; how the membership of that panel was sites to a single building on Cockspur Street. More chosen; and if the Commission will publish a list of details of the SFO’s performance at meeting its targets names of those considered for membership of that can be found in Annex A of its Annual Report and panel. [207922] Accounts which is published online at: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ John Thurso: Expressions of interest were not invited attachment_data/file/328727/SFO_AR-2014_SPS-26-6.pdf for persons to serve on the selection panel. The members of the panel were chosen by Mr Speaker to ensure Full details of the steps taken by the Attorney-General’s political and gender balance and the need for external Office, Treasury Solicitor’s Department (TSol) and HM input. The panel composition was considered by the Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate and to reduce House of Commons Commission on 16 June. It would energy costs can be found in Annex A of the TSol be inappropriate to publish a list of those considered Annual Report and Accounts 2013-14 (HC paper number and rejected for panel membership. 1262). This is published online at: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tsol-ago- hmcpsi-annual-report-and-accounts-2013-to-14 Michael Fabricant: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing Written Questions the House of Commons Commission, what fees were charged by Saxton Bampfylde for the recruitment of Hilary Benn: To ask the Attorney-General what the position of Clerk of the House and Chief Executive. proportion of named day written questions were answered [208047] by the Law Officers’ Departments within the prescribed period in the (a) 2012-13 session, (b) 2013-14 session John Thurso: I refer the hon. Gentleman to my answer and (c) 2014-15 session to date. [208417] of 5 September 2014, Official Report, column 345W, to the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns). The Solicitor-General: The information requested is contained in the following table: Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy Proportion answered on the Number named day (percentage) Mr Simon Burns: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of 2012-13 116 99 Commons Commission, what (a) expenses and (b) 2013-14 129 91 salary is paid to members of the Speaker’s Commission 2014-15 (to 30 90 date) on Digital Democracy. [208180] 595W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 596W

Departmental performance information, for ordinary Andrew Selous: The National Offender Management and named day parliamentary questions, is collated by Service (NOMS) policy on prisoner categorisation is set the Office of the Leader of the House of Commons and out in three Prison Service Instructions. Policy requires submitted to the Procedure Committee. This is published that all prisoners are assigned a security category on a on a Sessional basis by the committee, and includes range of factors including the basis of an assessment of evidence regarding departmental performance. The the likelihood that they will try to escape and the risk of monitoring report relating to the 2012-13 Session was harm to the public in the event that they succeed in published on 13 February 2014 as HC1046. The report escaping. Once they are categorised, prisoners are allocated covering statistics relating to performance during the to a prison with that or higher category. 2013-14 Session will be published very shortly by the The risk assessment that informs the categorisation Procedure Committee. decision takes into account the nature of an individual’s index offence, length of sentence, history of offending and previous intelligence relating to escape. PRIME MINISTER Northern Ireland The numbers of prisoners awaiting categorisation changes regularly at prisons with a local function as Lady Hermon: To ask the Prime Minister how many new prisoners are received and assessments are completed. official visits to Northern Ireland he has undertaken It is possible for categorisation assessments to build up since May 2010; and if he will make a statement. quickly at prisons with 50 to 100 prisoner movements through reception daily.Belmarsh currently has 25 prisoners [208317] awaiting categorisation. The Prime Minister: Details of my visits within the United Kingdom are published on the gov.uk website. Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the waiting time is for a prisoner to be Northern Ireland Government categorised at HM Prison Belmarsh. [207875] Lady Hermon: To ask the Prime Minister how many meetings he has held at (a) Downing Street and (b) Andrew Selous: The National Offender Management the House with elected representatives from Northern Service (NOMS) policy on prisoner categorisation is set Ireland in 2014 to date; and if he will make a statement. out in Prison Service Instruction 40/11 (Categorisation [208320] and Re-categorisation of adult male offenders). Policy requires that all adult male prisoners are assigned a The Prime Minister: I regularly meet Members from security category within four working days of the prison all parties. receiving the information required for the assessment. Saudi Arabia

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Prime Minister pursuant Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for to his Statement of 1 September 2014, Official Report, Justice what the average number of days was that a column 34, what the evidential basis is for his statement prisoner was held in HM Prison Belmarsh after being that the Saudi authorities have changed their approach categorised as Category D before being moved to another on radicalisation around the world; and if he will make prison in the latest period for which figures are available. a statement. [208049] [207876] Paul Flynn: To ask the Prime Minister with reference to his Oral statement of 1 September 2014, Official Andrew Selous: The National Offender Management Report, column 34, what the evidential basis is for his Service (NOMS) policy on prisoner categorisation is set statement that the Saudi Arabian government has out in Prison Service Instruction 40/11 (Categorisation changed its approach on radicalisation around the and Re-categorisation of adult male offenders). Policy world; and whether he considers that such changes requires that all adult male prisoners are assigned a have included a change in policy on providing funding security category within four working days of the for Islamist extremist groups. [208144] prison receiving the information required for the assessment. The Prime Minister: The UK and Saudi Arabia enjoy Information on the average number of days that a close cooperation in countering the shared terrorist Category D prisoner is held in Belmarsh pending allocation threat against both our countries. The Saudi Arabian to a Category D prison is not held centrally or routinely Government has condemned acts of terrorism and collated so could only be provided at disproportionate extremism around the world, and now has in place one cost. of the most advanced de-radicalisation programmes Allocation will, in most cases, take longer than the anywhere. categorisation process as it is based on a more thorough assessment of individual prisoner risks and sentence management needs. This must be completed before a JUSTICE prisoner is transferred to open conditions. It is not Belmarsh Prison unusual for prisoners who have been recategorised to a lower category to be held in a prison of a higher security Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for category pending further assessment; or, for example, Justice how many prisoners are held in HM Prison where there is need to complete medical treatment or Belmarsh awaiting categorisation. [207874] courses. 597W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 598W

Claims Management Services Andrew Selous: As a result of our probation reforms, responsibility for probation provision transferred on Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 1 June 2014 from the 35 probation trusts to the new what assessment he has made of the regulation of National Probation Service and 21 community rehabilitation claims management companies for insurance purposes; companies (CRCs). and if he will make a statement. [207972] Mary Archer, who was chief executive of Essex Probation Trust, is now the chief executive officer of the Essex Mr Vara: The effectiveness of the regulatory response CRC. There has been no increase in her remuneration to claims management companies (CMCs) is under over the last 12 months. Alan Hubbard was previously continuous review and the Department’s Claims chair of Essex Probation Trust; he is now a non-executive Management Regulator has stepped up action with a director of the Essex CRC. His remuneration has decreased, series of reforms, as part of wider action to clamp down because his new role involves a lesser commitment of on bad practice. time. No assessment of claims management regulation has been made specifically for insurance purposes. We have Public Records introduced tough new rules to prevent bad business practices as well as increasing regulation fees and are Sir Alan Beith: To ask the Secretary of State for introducing large new fines, of potentially hundreds of Justice what steps he is taking to ensure that departments thousands of pounds, for CMCs which break the rules. meet targets for clearing public records for transfer to This follows previous reforms to tackle rogue companies, the National Archives. [905297] including a ban on CMCs offering cash and other incentives to consumers to bring claims and the banning Simon Hughes: Government Departments are currently of referral fees which used to be paid between no-win in transition from the 30 year rule for transferring no-fee lawyers, CMCs and others for profitable claims. records to The National Archives to a 20 year rule, over We are consulting on further changes to create an a 10 year period. The National Archives works closely improved, robust system which will deter unnecessary, with departments to help them meet their targets for exaggerated or speculative claims, ensure the genuinely transferring records through published statistics and injured can get the help they need, and drive down the capability assessments. cost of motor insurance premiums. In March 2014 the Prime Minister commissioned his independent adviser on ministerial standards, Sir Alex Courts: Correspondence Allan, to establish the position across government on the annual release of papers and the ability and readiness Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of departments to meet the requirements of moving to if he will seek to ensure that the courts’ administrations the 20-year rule. The Government will consider Sir when a defendant has been given a custodial sentence Alex’s recommendations in due course. do not send confidential information to an address where there is a risk it might be read by unauthorised Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill persons such as a new tenant but instead to a person nominated by the prisoner such as next-of-kin or to the Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for prisoner’s legal representative. [208067] Justice (1) what discussions his Department had with the Health and Safety Executive before the introduction Mr Vara: HM Courts & Tribunals Service (HMCTS) of the Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill; provides administrative support for a large number of courts in England and Wales. HMCTS sends information [206699] by post to the addresses given by the parties to court (2) whether he expects the bringing into force of the proceedings. If a party changes their address or commences Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill will lead a custodial sentence part way through court proceedings to workers taking out personal insurance cover to protect then they should notify the relevant court of this change them if they are injured at work; [206706] and can request that information is sent to a relative or (3) what discussions he has had with the insurance a legal representative. All courts have administrative industry on the need for the Social Action, Responsibility procedures in place to process changes of address and and Heroism Bill; [206712] will update their records accordingly. (4) what discussions he has had with the judiciary on HMCTS is reliant on the parties to proceedings the need for the Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism providing valid and up to date addresses. It is not Bill. [206713] possible for HMCTS to check if an address given is correct or if any defendants in criminal proceedings Mr Vara: The Ministry of Justice discussed the Social have commenced a custodial sentence, due to the volume Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill with officials of cases handled by the criminal, civil and family courts. from the Health and Safety Executive and senior members of the judiciary prior to its introduction. There have Probation: Essex been no discussions with the insurance industry regarding the Bill. There is nothing in the Bill which prevents an Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice employee bringing a negligence claim, or which leaves what increase there has been in the salary of (a) Mary workers without appropriate remedies when they are Archer and (b) Alan Hubbard for posts connected with injured by the negligent actions of irresponsible employers. probation services in Essex over the last 12 months. We do not therefore expect it to lead to workers taking [208402] out personal insurance cover. 599W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 600W

Tobacco: Fraud George Eustice: DEFRA actively shares scientific information on bovine TB with the Department for Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Agriculture and Rural Development in Northern Ireland Justice (1) how many people were convicted of tobacco- (DARDNI). Although DEFRA’s TB research budget related fraud in (a) Medway, (b) Kent and (c) England does not cover Northern Ireland, DARDNI staff members in each of the last 10 years; [207998] regularly attend meetings of DEFRA’s TB Science Advisory Body sub-groups and DEFRA shares findings from its (2) how many people received a custodial sentence research with DARDNI including research on improving for selling illicit tobacco in (a) Medway, (b) Kent and diagnostic tests for TB in badgers. The Chief Veterinary (c) England in each of the last 10 years; [207999] Officers of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern (3) what estimate he has made of the number of Ireland, and senior policy officials, also meet monthly repeat offenders for selling illicit tobacco. [208000] to discuss all issues related to bovine tuberculosis, including Mike Penning: There are a range of offences dealing research findings. with the importation of restricted goods, counterfeiting, Marine Management Organisation fraud and the sale of illicit goods and it is therefore not possible to identify those convictions specifically relating to tobacco. There are high penalties available for these Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for serious offences, for example revenue fraud offences Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will instruct carry a maximum penalty of seven years’ imprisonment. the Marine Management Organisation (MMO) to publish Sentencing in individual cases is a matter for our the report on the investigation into the potential misuse independent courts. or misapplication by the MMO of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. [208090] This Government is committed to stepping up action to deal with this problem. In 2011, HMRC and Border George Eustice: I do not currently intend to ask the Force published a comprehensive strategy, Tackling Tobacco MMO to publish an internal report. The MMO has Smuggling-building on our success, for tackling tobacco declared to the Office of the Surveillance Commissioner smuggling to address the source, supply and demand that due to a differing interpretation of the law some for illicit tobacco products in the UK. Information on surveillance activity was undertaken that may have required the outputs of the tobacco strategy, case studies, criminal authorisation under the Regulation of Investigatory investigations, civil penalties and high profile multi-agency Powers Act. The Commissioner recognises that the events, can be found at MMO has put improved procedures in place to avoid a https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tackling- recurrence. tobacco-smuggling-2013-to-2014-outputs Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS confidentiality agreements the Marine Management Organisation has sought in respect of third parties in Apprentices (a) 2013-14 and (b) the current year. [208091]

Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for George Eustice: One agreement was sought and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions concluded in the current year. she and Ministers in her Department have had with Ministers in the Department for Business, Innovation Science: Curriculum and Skills on the proposed reform of apprenticeships; what effect those discussions will have on her Department’s Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for projects and the work of their supply chain; and whether Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether (a) she officials in her Department sit on programme boards and (b) her predecessor had discussions with representatives managing the reform. [208210] of the agricultural and horticultural sectors on the potential effect on skills and recruitment into those George Eustice: DEFRA and BIS have regular sectors of the proposals to remove OCR environmental discussions on a range of skills development issues, and land-based science from the curriculum; and if she including reform of apprenticeships, to ensure that will make a statement. [207992] different departmental programmes are complementary and can effectively support growth. The Apprenticeship Dan Rogerson: The Office of Qualifications and Trailblazers have had a strong focus on the food industry, Examinations Regulation (Ofqual), the independent with schemes supporting food engineering and butchery regulator of qualifications in England, consulted recently skills. I fully support the skills and apprenticeship agenda on proposals for completing the reforms of GCSEs and and regularly discuss this with stakeholders in the food A levels: and farming sectors. http://comment.ofqual.gov.uk/completing-gcse-as-and-a- Bovine Tuberculosis: Northern Ireland level-reform/ including principles to guide the subjects that may be Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for offered in the future. The consultation closed on 30 July Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her 2014 and Ofqual have not yet announced the outcome. Department is taking to exchange scientific research These proposals do not remove specific subjects from with the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland the curriculum; however, they may have implications for on tackling bovine tuberculosis; and if she will make a the range of subjects available as GCSE or A level statement. [208227] qualifications provided by awarding organisations. The 601W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 602W removal of some qualifications may be as a result of Enforcement low take up of specific qualifications or significant notices issued overlap of content. As Ofqual is independent of Ministers, Count of in relation to and is accountable directly to Parliament, neither the restocking illegal tree Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural notices issued felling by end Affairs, the right hon. Member for South West Norfolk Prosecutions by end of year of year (Elizabeth Truss) nor her predecessor have therefore 2013/14 0 12 6 discussed the proposals with agriculture and horticulture 2012/13 0 18 2 representatives, although they were able to respond to 2011/12 0 16 7 the consultation directly. I have asked Ofqual’s Chief 2010/11 0 7 6 Regulator, Glenys Stacey, to write to the hon. Member. 2009/10 0 16 2 A copy of her letter will be placed in the House of 2008/09 2 18 2 Commons Library. 2007/08 2 20 2 Tree Felling 2006/07 9 10 2 2005/06 17 14 2 Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for 2004/05 11 11 2 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when the levels of fines and sanctions for the illegal felling of trees were last reviewed and updated; and what steps her Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Department takes to ensure that fines and sanctions for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance the illegal felling of trees are kept up-to-date and are her Department issues on the time required to investigate effective. [208409] cases where prosecution is being considered by the Forestry Commission for the illegal felling of trees. [208411] Dan Rogerson: The fines and sanctions for the illegal felling of trees are laid out in the Forestry Act 1967 (as Dan Rogerson: DEFRA does not issue any such amended). The Criminal Justice Act 1982 made provision guidance. Strict time limits are specified in the Forestry to increase the level of fine when it introduced the Act 1967 which states that proceedings for an offence of standard scale of fines for summary offences. felling without a licence may be instituted within six The Forestry Act 1967 was also amended by the months from the first discovery of the offence by the Regulatory Reform (Forestry) Order 2006. This amendment person taking the proceedings, provided that no proceedings now enables the Forestry Commissioners the option of shall be instituted more than two years after the date of serving a Restocking Notice on a person who appears the offence. to the Commissioners to have committed an offence of felling without a licence. The Government’s regulation of the forestry sector Written Questions was last reviewed in 2011 by the Forestry Regulations Task Force. The independently appointed Task Force made a comprehensive review of the regulations that Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for protect and affect the management of woodland. The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion Government’s response to its recommendations can be of named day written questions were answered by her found at: Department within the prescribed period in the (a) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/report-by-the- 2012-13 session, (b) 2013-14 session and (c) 2014-15 forestry-regulation-task-force-government-response session to date. [208424]

Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Rogerson: The information is as follows. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many trees have been illegally felled in England and Wales; how Percentage of named day written many restocking orders have been issued by the Forestry question answered within Commission or other relevant body; how many enforcement Session prescribed period notices have subsequently been issued following restocking orders not being completed; and how many prosecutions 2012-13 56 have been taken forward by the Forestry Commission 2013-14 64 as a result of illegal felling of trees in each of the last 2014-15 (to date) 195 10 years. [208410] 1 Figures for the 2014-15 session cover questions for answer during the period 5 June to 5 September 2014, inclusive. Dan Rogerson: The following answer is for England Departmental performance information, for ordinary only. Forestry is a devolved matter and responsibility and named day Parliamentary Questions, is collated by for and monitoring of illegal felling in Wales rests with the Office of the Leader of the House of Commons and the Welsh Assembly. submitted to the Procedure Committee. This is published The Forestry Commission does not hold records for on a sessional basis by the committee, and includes the number of trees which are illegally felled because it evidence regarding departmental performance. The is the volume of licensable timber which is the key monitoring report relating to the 2012-13 session was consideration in whether any action may be taken. In published on 13 February 2014 as HC1046. The report 2013/14 however, 99.91% of licensable tree felling was covering statistics relating to performance during the carried out with Forestry Commission approval. The 2013-14 session will be published very shortly by the other data requested is shown in the table. Procedure Committee. 603W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 604W

WORK AND PENSIONS (TRV), and installation of Automatic Meter Readers which provide accurate, real time energy consumption data facilitating targeted Employment Schemes action on high consumption buildings. DWP’s network of volunteer ″Environmental Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Champions″ continue their essential role in encouraging Work and Pensions how many work clubs are being colleagues to save energy, supported by an interactive run from Jobcentre Plus offices. [208414] e-learning package for all staff, providing guidance on how to reduce energy consumption. Steve Webb: There are 14 work clubs being run from Jobcentre Plus offices. The role of Jobcentre Plus is to encourage partnership working to set up work clubs Growth and Enterprise Committee and to signpost claimants to them where they exist and where work coaches believe the support offered will help the claimant find work. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 4 September Employment Schemes: Young People 2014, Official Report, column 327W, on employment schemes: young people, who represents his Department on the Growth and Enterprise Committee. [208413] Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Education about ending the Steve Webb: As with all Cabinet Committees, the Youth Contract Wage Incentive scheme. [208358] membership list for the Growth and Enterprise Committee is published on the gov.uk website. It can currently be Steve Webb [holding answer 9 September 2014]: The accessed at: Minister for Employment, the right hon. Member for https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-cabinet- Wirral West (Esther McVey), discussed ending the Youth committees-system-and-list-of-cabinet-committees Contract Wage Incentive scheme and identified opportunities to help the most disadvantaged young people with the Minister of State for Skills and Enterprise. Jobcentre Plus

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 2 July Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 2014, Official Report, column 639W, on employment Work and Pensions what the median length of service schemes: young people, what estimate he has made of of Jobcentre Plus staff was in each of the last five how much of the £183.8 million allocated for the Youth years. [208415] Contract Wage Incentive scheme in this financial year will be used by that scheme. [208412] Steve Webb: The median length of service of Jobcentre Plus staff in 2009/10 and 2010/11 is recorded in the Steve Webb: The £183.8 million allocation referred to table. in the answer of 2 July 2014, Official Report, column 639W, on employment schemes: young people, was for Year Median Length of Service the entire Youth Contract initiative as announced at the 2011 autumn statement. Wage incentives are one aspect 2009/10 11 years, 8 months of the overall YouthContract that also includes sector-based 2010/11 15 years, 1 month work academies, a more intensive Jobcentre Plus regime, new enterprise allowance and a number of pilots. Jobcentre Plus was re-structured and absorbed into a The Department does not publish financial forecast revised Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) information as it is indicative, for internal management Operations structure in October 2011. Since that point, purposes only and is subject to change during the it has no longer existed as a separate organisation. This financial year. means the information beyond September 2011 is not available. Energy For completeness, I have included the median length of service of all Department for Work and Pensions Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work staff for the past 5 years. and Pensions what steps he is taking to reduce energy costs in his Department; and if he will make a Year Median Length of Service statement. [208351] 2009/10 12 years, 3 months 2010/11 15 years, 5 months Steve Webb: DWP is engaged in numerous energy 2011/12 18 years, 1 month efficiency projects which can be split into two main 2012/13 17 years, 3 months types: 2013/14 18 years, 7 months (1) Site specific projects: Consumption information is analysed to identify buildings with high usage patterns, which have the scope to offer significant savings from implementing a range of Length of service is measured as length of service projects such as lighting improvements. within the Civil Service rather than the Department. (2) Technical projects: Focusing on energy saving products The Department’s personnel systems record when an across the estate such as installation of Passive Infrared (PIR) employee joined the Civil Service rather than an individual sensors onto hot water boilers, Thermostatic Radiator Valves department or agency. 605W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 606W

The increase in the median length of service between Steve Webb: Since 1998 the Department for Work 2009/10 to 2011/12 is consistent with the ending of a and Pensions occupies the majority of its accommodation significant number of temporary contracts in this period. under a private finance initiative (PFI) known as the The removal of their low duration of service caused an PRIME Contract. increase in the median length of service for the Department. Under the terms of this PFI, the Department leases The decrease in median length of service between back fully serviced accommodation from its private 2011/12 to 2012/13 was caused by the incorporation of sector partner Telereal Trillium. We pay an all-inclusive the Child Maintenance Enforcement Commission in unitary price, known as the Facility Price (FP), for all August 2012-who had a lower median length of service our furniture, fixtures, equipment and services provided, than the rest of the Department. including televisions. Personal Independence Payment There were however, televisions supplied to the Department which fell outside the scope of the contract price; the costs of which are detailed as follows: Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps his Department has taken to (a) 2013: Two televisions at a cost of £487. ensure that the personal independence payment (b) 2014 to date: Four televisions at a cost of £1,076. application process is accessible to deafblind people who are unable to make a claim over the telephone or Universal Credit complete paper forms. [207966] Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Harper: The claim process for Personal Independence Work and Pensions what the latest performance rating Payment has been developed involving claimants and assigned to universal credit by the Major Projects people who support disabled people: Authority is. [207970] We have met with organisations which represent individuals with sensory impairments on several occasions, including Sense Mr Harper: In June 2014, the CEO of the Major and Deafblind Scotland. Projects Authority (MPA) reported to Public Accounts The Implementation Stakeholder Forum was consulted during Committee that the Universal Credit Programme was the development of the process. stable and on track. The initial claim will be taken over the telephone. If Going forward, the MPA Authority reports will give required someone else can call on the claimant’s behalf a delivery confidence assessment. The next assessment to help them make the call. The claimant needs to be is due in November 2014, present when the call is made. We recognise that for some individuals with sensory Written Questions impairments, attending a consultation at an unfamiliar location could create an element of anxiety. We have Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work made it very clear that when attending a face-to-face and Pensions what proportion of named day written consultation individuals will be able to bring with them questions were answered by his Department within the a relation, friend or possibly a professional who supports prescribed period in the (a) 2012-13 session, (b) 2013-14 them, in order to support them or help them manage session and (c) 2014-15 session to date. [208435] any anxiety they may feel. In some cases we will also carry out consultations in the individual’s home. Steve Webb: In the 2014-15 Session, as at the end of Claim forms, the initial contact, paper guidance and August 2014, the Department had answered 89% of general information is available in a range of formats named day questions on the named day. including large print, Braille, audio and British Sign Departmental performance information, for ordinary Language. Additionally if a specialist interpreter is and named day parliamentary questions, is collated by required we would seek to provide one. the Office of the Leader of the House of Commons and submitted to the Procedure Committee. This is published Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work on a Sessional basis by the committee, and includes and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 8 July 2014, evidence regarding departmental performance. The Official Report, column 278W,on personal independence monitoring report relating to the 2012-13 Session was payment, what progress he has made since that answer published on 13 February 2014 as HC1046. The report on ensuring that no applicant for personal independence covering statistics relating to performance during the payment waits more than 16 weeks for an assessment. 2013-14 Session will be published very shortly by the [207994] Procedure Committee. Mr Harper: We have been working with the providers to agree PIP performance improvement plans with the aim of speeding up all parts of the process and eliminating backlogs. These improvements are having an effect and DEFENCE we are making good progress. Afghanistan Television Sir Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for Defence (1) how many (a) Regular reservists and and Pensions how much his Department spent on the (b) Army Reservists were called up to support Operation purchase of televisions in (a) 2013 and (b) 2014 to Herrick in each financial year between 2002-03 and date. [208323] 2013-14; [208251] 607W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 608W

(2) how many (a) Regular reservists and (b) Army The numbers are provided in the following table. Reservists are supporting Operation Herrick. [208250]

Mr Brazier: The number of Reservists mobilised in support of Operation Herrick is not held in the format requested, it is held by Operation.

Operation Date Regular Reserve Army Reserve

Herrick 4 May 2006 – November 2006 10 342 Herrick 5 November 2006 – April 2007 10 186 Herrrick 6 April 2007 – October 2007 10 456 Herrrick 7 October 2007 – April 2008 20 775 Herrrick 8 April 2008 – October 2008 30 713 Herrrick 9 October 2008 – April 2009 * 551 Herrrick 10 April 2009 – October 2009 * 569 Herrrick 11 October 2009 – April 2010 10 296 Herrrick 12 April 2010 – October 2010 10 725 Herrrick 13 October 2010 – April 2011 * 615 Herrrick 14 April 2011 – October 2011 10 449 Herrrick 15 October 2011 – April 2012 * 680 Herrrick 16 April 2012 – October 2012 * 477 Herrrick 17 October 2012 – April 2013 * 621 Herrrick 18 April 2013 – October 2013 * 606 Herrrick 19 October 2013 – June 2014 * 475 ‘*’ = zero or rounded to zero. Notes: 1, There are currently Regular Reservists and 320 Army Reservists mobilised in support of Herrick 20, (June 2014 – December 2014). 2. Figures have been rounded to 10; numbers ending in 5 are rounded to the nearest multiple of 20 to prevent systematic bias.

Armed Forces Anna Soubry: The number of foreign nationals serving in our armed forces is shown in the table. The information Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for is presented by the number of foreign personnel by Defence how many nationals of which countries other nationality, the number and percentage serving in each than the UK serve in each service of the armed forces; of the armed forces and the number within the armed and what proportion of each such service such foreign forces overall. nationals represent. [207803]

UK Regular Forces1 by declared nationality2 and service at 1 July 2014 All services Royal Navy/Royal Marines3 Army RAF Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

UK Regular 157,490 — 33,080 — 89,480 — 34,940 — Forces

UK 149,590 95.0 32,360 97.8 82,460 92.2 34,770 99.7

Non-UK 7,840 5.0 720 2.2 7,000 7.8 120 0.3

Antiguan 5— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— 4— 4— Australian 70 0.0 20 0.0 50 0.1 10 0.0 Bahamian 5— 4— 5— 4— 5— 4— 4— 4— Bangladeshi 20 0.0 4— 4—200.04— 4— Barbadian 10 0.0 5— 4—100.04— 4— Belizean 50 0.0 4— 4—500.14— 4— Botswanan 20 0.0 5— 4—200.05— 4— Cameroonian 130 0.1 5— 4— 120 0.1 5— 4— Canadian 60 0.0 20 0.1 40 0.0 5— 4— Citizen of Fiji 1,740 1.1 120 0.4 1,600 1.8 10 0.0 Citizen of 20 0.0 4— 4—200.04— 4— Seychelles Citizen of Sri 10 0.0 4— 4—100.04— 4— Lanka Citizen of St 5— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— 4— 4— Christopher (St Kitts) and Nevis Dominican 40 0.0 5— 4—300.04— 4— Gambian 250 0.2 10 0.0 240 0.3 4— 4— Ghanaian 820 0.5 5— 4— 810 0.9 5— 4— 609W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 610W

UK Regular Forces1 by declared nationality2 and service at 1 July 2014 All services Royal Navy/Royal Marines3 Army RAF Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Grenadian 140 0.1 10 0.0 140 0.2 5— 4— Guyanese 20 0.0 5— 4—200.04— 4— Indian 190 0.1 5— 4— 180 0.2 5— 4— Irish 520 0.3 60 0.2 440 0.5 20 0.1 Italian 5— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— 4— 4— Jamaican 360 0.2 20 0.1 330 0.4 10 0.0 Kenyan 220 0.1 10 0.0 210 0.2 5— 4— Lesotho 5— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— 4— 4— Malawian 190 0.1 10 0.0 180 0.2 4— 4— Malaysian 10 0.0 5— 4— 5— 4— 4— 4— Maltese 10 0.0 5— 4—100.04— 4— Mauritanian 5— 4— 4— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— Mauritian 60 0.0 5— 4—500.15— 4— Namibian 5— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— 5— 4— Nepalese 600 0.4 10 0.0 590 0.7 4— 4— New Zealander 70 0.0 10 0.0 50 0.1 10 0.0 Nigerian 250 0.2 10 0.0 240 0.3 5— 4— Pakistani 20 0.0 4— 4—200.04— 4— Papua New 5— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— 4— 4— Guinean Polish 5— 4— 4— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— Rwandan 5— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— 4— 4— Sierra Leonean 40 0.0 5— 4—400.04— 4— Singaporean 5— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— 4— 4— South African 710 0.5 100 0.3 600 0.7 10 0.0 St Lucian 230 0.1 10 0.0 210 0.2 5— 4— Swazi 10 0.0 4— 4—100.04— 4— Tanzanian 10 0.0 4— 4—100.04— 4— Tongan 10 0.0 4— 4—100.04— 4— Trinidad and 80 0.0 30 0.1 40 0.0 10 0.0 Tobago citizen Ugandan 60 0.0 5— 4—500.15— 4— United States 5— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— 5— 4— citizen Vincentian 490 0.3 210 0.6 280 0.3 5— 4— Yugoslavian 5— 4— 4— 4— 4— 4— 5— 4— Zambian 40 0.0 10 0.0 40 0.0 4— 4— Zimbabwean 240 0.2 20 0.1 220 0.2 10 0.0

Unknown 60 0.0 4— 4— 10 0.0 50 0.1 1 UK Regular Forces comprises trained and untrained personnel and excludes Gurkhas, full-time Reserve Service personnel and mobilised reservists. 2 Nationality figures and percentages are based on those with a declared nationality on JPA and excludes those with an unknown nationality. 3 Royal Navy/Royal Marines describes full-time naval armed forces personnel which comprises of the Royal Navy (including the Queen Alexandra’s Royal Naval Nursing Service) and the Royal Marines combined. 4 Denotes zero. 5 Denotes fewer than five.

Armed Forces Covenant: South West from a range of projects based either in the South West or operating UK wide worth in excess of £11.5 million. Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for We expect further projects in the South West to benefit Defence which organisations working with veterans in in the near future and in the long term when the new the South West have received money under the Armed £10 million Armed Forces Covenant Fund is introduced Forces Covenant Fund to date. [207533] in 2015. Projects in the South West are funded via the Community Anna Soubry: To date the Government has invested Covenant Grant Scheme and a £35 million LIBOR £105 million in support of the Armed Forces Covenant Fund. much of which is benifiting or will benefit veterans A list of successful projects to date can be found as across the UK. Veterans in the South West have benefited follows.

Community Covenant Grant Scheme

Project Description Area Sum agreed (£)

The Swan Forces project Support services for vulnerable Wiltshire 7,000.00 veterans. 611W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 612W

Community Covenant Grant Scheme Project Description Area Sum agreed (£)

Blandford Museum Project to record experiences of Blandford, Dorset 5,900 Service personnel and Veterans. Worldwide Volunteering (WWV) Full time Volunteering Project Tidworth, Wiltshire 30,000 Managers to support those who might be going through post trauma recovery or any life-style or career transition process. The Wiltshire Barn Project Craft-based training, qualification Woodborough, Wiltshire 10,000 and employment scheme using the medium of manual book binding based in a calm rural setting. Codford Historical Society To portray the arrival of thousands Codford, Wiltshire 4,000 of Kitcheners Volunteers in the Wylye Valley at the start of WW1 and the effects this had on the local community. Alabaré Christian Care & Support To provide support and homes for Longleven, Gloucester 62,600 the reintegrating of veterans back into local life Alabaré Christian Care & Support 4 bed fully supported Weymouth 23,998 accommodation home in Weymouth. The recruitment, training and supervision of a team of 10 volunteers community befrienders. Alabaré Christian Care & Support Recruit and train 10 volunteer Plymouth, Devon 11,998 befrienders, to support those at risk to secure appropriate accommodation and allow them to re integrate Running Deer C.I.C. Learning, training, work experience Moretonhampstead, Devon 69,570 and personal development opportunities on structured training programmes. Alabare Christian Care & Support A 3 bed supported accommodation Salisbury, Wiltshire 33,705 home in Salisbury. Splitz Support Service A programme looking at how to Wiltshire 20,000 change abusive behaviour. The Royal British Legion Dedicated facility to meet Case Gloucester 3,000 officers. Surf Action Satellite hubs in North Cornwall North Cornwall 22,500 providing additional beach clinics and support services. Total 304,271

£35 million LIBOR Fund-Projects Benefiting Veterans in the South West ( funding for UK wide projects which benefit the South West as also included) Organisation Bid Title Area Bid Value (£)

Adjutant General’s Corps Adjutant General’s Corps Welfare England 28,774.00 Regimental Association Caravan British ex-Services Wheelchair Sports Rehabilitation Through Sport UK wide 66,678.90 Association Charitable Housing Association Remodelling CESSA HA’s St England 160,000.00 George’s Court Sheltered Housing Scheme China Fleet Trust Holiday Apartment upgrade for Devon 50,000.00 injured, wounded and disabled personnel, veterans and families Combat Stress Combat Stress Community Outreach UK wide 2,000,000.00 Teams Combat Stress 24 Hour Mental Health Helpline UK wide 200,000.00 Combat Stress Combat Stress Veterans 24 Hour UK wide 575,268.00 Helpline Defence Medical Welfare Service Armed Forces & Veterans Hospital UK wide 896,296.00 Welfare Service Help for Heroes Hidden Wounds Programme UK wide 2,710,500.00 Music in Hospitals Musical Movements UK wide 32,400.00 RBL Family Break Service England 921,000.00 Royal Marines Royal Marines Families and Dorset 2,300,000.00 Veterans’ Centre Shore Leave Haslar Equipment Procurement and Site Portsmouth 13,380.00 Access Project for Gardening Therapy for Veterans. The Calvert Trust Uniting Families with Disabilities UK wide 183,312.00 The Not Forgotten Association Adventurous Activities for Serving UK wide 25,000.00 and ex-Serving Wounded 613W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 614W

£35 million LIBOR Fund-Projects Benefiting Veterans in the South West ( funding for UK wide projects which benefit the South West as also included) Organisation Bid Title Area Bid Value (£)

The Warrior Programme The Warrior Programme for Veterans UK wide 933,149.00 and Families Veterans Outreach Support Veterans Outreach Support Portsmouth 414,607.00 Total 11,510,394.90

Armoured Fighting Vehicles Army Reserve

Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the total budget of the Armoured Vehicles Defence when a decision will be taken on the long-term Programme has been in each year since 2010; and what future of Army Reserve bases which had originally estimate he has made of the budget of this programme been scheduled to be closed in 2016. [208104] in each year upto 2030. [208110]

Mr Dunne: The total budget of the Armoured Vehicles Mr Brazier: The previous Defence Secretary, my right Programme in each financial year (FY) since 2010 has hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge been: (Mr Hammond), outlined changes to streamline the Army Reserve structure under the Future Reserves FY Expenditure (£ million) 2020 plan on 3 July 2013, Official Report, column 49WS. 2010-11 399 The result of this plan was that a number of Army 2011-12 391 Reserve Centres were identified as surplus to Army 2012-13 373 requirements and would therefore be closed. Since then 2013-14 357 plans to pair Reserve units with Regular units have been 2014-15 463 developed and the Army has undertaken further work The estimate of the budget of this programme in to ensure the optimum geographical footprint is in each FY of the latest 10 year Equipment Plan up to place. This work has taken into account recruiting 2025 is: performance, long term value for money and the delivery of operational capability. As a result of this work some FY Expenditure (£ million) units previously scheduled for closure will now remain open. Others may also remain open, subject to significantly 2015-16 496 improved recruiting performance before 2016. Members 2016-17 592 affected by these changes will be notified at the time and 2017-18 885 I intend to keep Parliament updated on these changes 2018-19 1,047 on an annual basis. 2019-20 1,301 2020-21 1,534 Sir Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State 2021-22 1,667 for Defence how many Army Reserve recruits (a) 2022-23 1,717 passed and (b) failed (i) Phase One and (ii) Phase Two 2023-24 1,667 training in each year between 2010-11 and 2013-14. 2024-25 1,294 [208234] Figures do not include non-Equipment Programme costs such as fuel, training and consumable inventory. Mr Brazier: The number of Army Reserve recruits who passed and failed Phase 1 and Phase 2 initial Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for training phases between 2010-11 and 2013-14 are as Defence what steps his Department is taking to procure follows: a class of Future Rapid Effects System Utility vehicles as part of the Armoured Vehicles Programme. [208112] Phase 1 Phase 2 Pass Fail Pass Fail Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence is no longer pursuing a “Future Rapid Effects System” programme. 2010-11 900 240 970 50 The capability that the Future Rapid Effects System 2011-12 770 490 830 150 was intended to deliver is now being delivered through 2012-13 670 350 640 160 other projects, principally the SCOUT Specialist Vehicle 2013-14 600 310 570 190 (SV) and the Utility Vehicle (UV). SCOUT is the transformational project that will refresh our entire Failures include those who do not complete a training armoured capability and allow us to remain a global course due to their own volition, through injury or for first-tier military force. compassionate reasons. A recruit may fail a course and A £3.5 billion contract to procure 589 SCOUT (SVs) then go on to pass a further course in the same year. was announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary Additionally a recruit may fail a course more than once of State for Defence (Michael Fallon) on 3 September in any reporting period. 2014, Official Report, column 20WS. The Utility Vehicle Figures have been rounded to 10; numbers ending in programme, including work to define the requirements five are rounded to the nearest multiple of 20 to prevent of the vehicle, is in its early stages. systematic bias. 615W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 616W

Sir Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State Anna Soubry: The Strategic Business Partner Contract for Defence how many army pensioners have been has obligations to manage all the services managed by recalled to service under Section 52 of the Reserve the Defence Infrastructure Organisation including the Forces Act 1996 since 1997. [208238] service delivery contracts. These contracts include customer service and response times. Mr Brazier: No Army Pensioners have been recalled The Strategic Business Partner Contract also contains to service since 1997 under Section 52 of the Reserve key performance indicators for customer satisfaction. Forces Act (call out for National danger, great emergency or attack on the UK).

Sir Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State Energy for Defence how many Army Reserves were in training in each financial year between 2010-11 and 2013-14. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for [208245] Defence what steps he is taking to reduce energy costs in his Department; and if he will make a statement. Mr Brazier: Data are only available from 2012-13 [208338] onwards. The average numbers of Army Reserve recruits under training for 2012-13 and 2013-14 are as follows: Anna Soubry: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is committed to reducing energy costs. Training year Average Numbers in Training Details of which can be found in the Sustainable 2012-13 6,030 MOD Annual Report for 2013-14 at the following link: 2013-14 4,540 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sustainable- mod-annual-report-2013-to-2014 Figures provided reflect the average number of Army Reservists holding training positions prior to entering the trained strength. The reduction in numbers in training Information in 2013-14 is due to a more efficient training system, meaning that recruits complete training more quickly, as well as a data cleansing exercise that was undertaken Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for to remove those who were no longer on strength but Defence what steps his Department is taking to improve were still nominally occupying training positions. its Information and Information Communication Technology capability. [208408] Figures have been rounded to 10; numbers ending in 5 are rounded to the nearest multiple of 20 to prevent Mr Dunne: The Department’s extant Information systematic bias. Communication Technology (ICT) Strategy dated October Army: Recruitment 2013 is available in the public domain on the Gov.uk website at the following link: Sir Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ for Defence (1) what targets for recruitment into the attachment_data/file/255880/Defence_ICT_Strategy_ (a) Regular Army and (b) Army Reserve were set in 2013_Final.pdf each year between 2010-11 and 2013-14; [208248] The departmental lead for Information and ICT in (2) what the target is for recruitment into the (a) the Ministry of Defence (MOD) is the Information Regular Army and (b) Army Reserve in the current Systems and Services (ISS) organisation. ISS has recently financial year. [208247] embarked on an ambitious tranformational change programme aimed at enhancing ICT capabilities across Mr Brazier: Recruitment targets for the Regular Army the MOD (both in the operational and corporate domains). and Army Reserve between 2010-11 and the current Technology and Innovation are at the heart of ISS financial year are as follows: Transformation and our initial focus will be to deliver improvements to the MOD-wide computer network, Regular Target Reserve Target Defence Information Infrastructure (DII). Other workstreams focus on skills and behaviours; industry 2010-11 6,950 — engagement and improving ISS’ agility and customer 2011-12 7,380 — focus. 2012-13 7,440 — 2013-14 7,240 4,900 2014-15 6,860 7,270 Iraq Army Reserve recruitment targets were not set until October 2013 following the publication of the Reserves Sir Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State White Paper in July 2013. for Defence how many (a) Regular reservists and (b) Defence Infrastructure Organisation Army Reservists were called up to support Operation Telic in each year between 2002-03 and 2011-12. Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for [208249] Defence whether the contract for the strategic business partnership between the Defence Infrastructure Mr Brazier: The number of Reservists mobilised in Organisation and Capita contains conditions on customer support of Operation Telic is not held in the format facing service and expected response times to enquiries. requested, it is held by Operation. [208037] The numbers are provided in the table. 617W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 618W

Operation Date Regular Reserve Army Reserve

Telic 1 February 2003-June 03 250 3,610 Telic 2 July 2003-October 2003 20 2,050 Telic 3 November 2003-April 2004 20 980 Telic 4 May 04-October 2004 40 1,530 Telic 5 November 2004-April 2005 30 710 Telic 6 May 05-October 2005 50 660 Telic 7 November 2005-April 2006 110 500 Telic 8 May 06-October 2006 120 320 Telic 9 November 2006-April 2007 50 320 Telic 10 May 07-October 2007 20 200 Telic 11 November 2007-April 2008 10 290 Telic 12 June 2008-November 2008 - 230 Telic 13 November 2008-May 2009 - 30 ‘-’ Zero or rounded to zero. Note: Figures have been rounded to 10; numbers ending in 5 are rounded to the nearest multiple of 20 to prevent systematic bias.

Nuclear Weapons Public Records: Northern Ireland

Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answers of 3 July 2014, Official Report, what current assessment he has made of the relevance column 725W, on nuclear weapons and of 10 July 2014, of unreleased historical documents relating to Northern Official Report, column 358W, on nuclear weapons, if Ireland held at Swadlincote to the work of the Historical he will publish the titles of reports requested for the Enquiries Team in investigating cases from the past; longest most recent period of time that will not incur and whether he plans to release these records to the disproportionate cost. [206421] National Archive under the Public Records Act 1958. [207980] Mr Dunne: Responsibility for the transportation of warheads was transferred to the Warship Support Agency Mr Francois: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I (now part of Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S)) gave on 14 October 2013, Official Report, column 483W. from the RAF in 2002. Titles of reports that relate to the risks of the transport of nuclear warheads that are Warships held by DE&S are shown below. To conduct a search of the archived files held by the RAF could be carried out Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for only at disproportionate cost. Defence what the standard length was of deployment Threat Vulnerability Assessment/Peer Review dated 14 April for service personnel aboard (a) frigates and (b) 2014. destroyers in 2012; and what the standard length of Review of security arrangements across Nuclear Weapon Lifecycle such deployments is at present. [208441] Phases (LCP) 1-3, dated 18 July 2012. Anna Soubry: In 2012, the average length of deployment (Project Armoured Nuclear Transporter) Truck Cargo Heavy Duty Mk3 Transport Operational Safety Case (OSC) Issue 2 for both destroyers and frigates was seven months. dated October 2011. Currently, deployments are between seven and seven Nuclear Weapons Security—Op DANSK Final Report dated and a half months. 29 April 2010. From early 2015, the Royal Navy will introduce nine- The Future Role of the Ministry of Defence Police (known as month deployments for those destroyers and frigates The Woolley Report) 3 September 2009. undertaking patrol tasks in the South Atlantic and the Transport and Base Security Study dated 8 May 2006. Gulf. The move to longer deployments will mean fewer Operational Safety Case for the Transport of Nuclear Weapons, generation cycles; fewer deployments in the longer term; Issue 2 dated January 2005. less disruption, and a better ability for individuals and Director Nuclear Movements and Nuclear Accident Response families to plan. A package of additional benefits will Group Safety Statement for the Modification of the Nuclear be in place for personnel: two weeks’ pre-deployment Weapon Convoy task to Continuous Running including running leave; two weeks’ leave at the mid point of their deployment, in the hours of darkness dated 16 December 2004. and four or five weeks’ leave on their return, depending Review of Nuclear Weapon Road Convoy Security Arrangements, on which main leave period this falls in. It is planned by Brig J H Thomas dated 19 February 2003. that other deployments will remain between seven and Movements by Sea of Nuclear Weapons dated 17 December seven and a half months. 1996. Management Services Organisation Study No. 774 Nuclear Road Convoys, dated October 1993. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS A number of reports have been identified that relate to the effects of the use of a UK nuclear weapon, where the Arms Trade: Exports titles could be provided without incurring disproportionate cost. This information is, however, being withheld to Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for safeguard national security, because its release would Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has prejudice the defence of the UK, and because it relates made of the net benefit to UK defence exports as a to the formulation of Government policy. result of the recent Farnborough Airshow. [206008] 619W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 620W

Matthew Hancock: Farnborough is an important Business: Loans showcase for the UK Defence sector, the Department does not make estimates of defence exports arising as a Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for result of the Farnborough Airshow, but recent figures Business, Innovation and Skills how many firms have released show that defence exports grew by 11% in 2013 received assistance under the Direct Lending Scheme to £9.8 billion. Previous exhibitions such as Farnborough to date. [206025] 2012 are likely to have contributed to these figures. Matthew Hancock: There has been significant interest Arms Trade: Saudi Arabia in UK Export Finance’s (UKEF) Direct Lending Facility (DLF) since its enhancements were announced in the Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Budget. Since it was relaunched on 30 June 2014, the Innovation and Skills what end-of-use monitoring is in pipeline of potential export contracts has developed place to ensure that UK weapons supplied to Saudi and now involves 28 UK-based exporters of varying Arabia are used for the purposes specified. [207361] size and export experience. As it stands, the pipeline has 35 potential export contracts that range from £3 million Matthew Hancock: The UK’s priority in arms export to over £350 million. Most importantly, the DLF pipeline licensing is to ensure that all applications are rigorously is growing. assessed on a case-by-case basis against the Consolidated EU and National Arms Export Licensing Criteria prior Defence Equipment: Exhibitions to granting a licence. This includes assessing the risk of diversion to undesirable end use or undesirable end Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for users. Business, Innovation and Skills whether companies After the export has been granted, the Export Control which have been previously ejected from the DSEI Organisation also has the power to suspend and revoke arms fair for selling equipment which could be used for licences if necessary, if the situation in the end-use torture are permitted to exhibit at future similar events destination changes. in London. [206108] In terms of end use monitoring, Foreign Office posts overseas have a standing requirement to monitor Matthew Hancock: DSEI is a commercial exhibition developments in human rights and conflicts in their run by Clarion Events. The decision whether to allow a respective countries or regions and to report back if company to exhibit is a matter for Clarion Events in there are any developments that might affect licensing compliance with UK law and export control regulation. policy. In addition the Government uses open source material such as NGO reports to make it assessments. Energy

Buildings Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for to reduce energy costs in his Department; and if he will Business, Innovation and Skills which organisations are make a statement. [208333] the main occupants of his Department’s properties at (a) Cannon House, Birmingham, (b) the NTI Building, Jo Swinson: The Department for Business, Innovation Birmingham, (c) Queensway House, Billingham, (d) and Skills is committed to reducing energy usage in Stella House, Newcastle and (e) Westfield House, London; order to realise cost savings and achieve the Greening and what the value is of the total rent collected from all Government Commitments (GGC) target of 25% carbon occupants in each of those buildings per year. [208022] reduction by 2014/15. The Department has implemented a number of initiatives Jo Swinson: The main tenant at Cannon House in to reduce the estate’s energy consumption: Birmingham is the Insolvency Service (an Executive (a) Estate rationalisation has maximised space utilisation and agency of the Department of Business, Innovation and improved the usability and capacity of core buildings. In central Skills) who pays rent to the landlord for space within London, the Department has achieved significant energy savings the building. No income is derived from any occupation by reducing from eight buildings to one. This has resulted in an of this building. estimated £10.7 million in property savings per annum for the period 2012-21 including significantly reduced energy costs. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) no longer occupy any space within the NTI (b) A partial building shutdown is observed over each Christmas break at 1 Victoria street. Staff are located in a discrete area of Building in Birmingham. The estates team for BIS are the HQ building between Christmas and new year, to minimise actively marketing the vacant space in the NTI building, heating and lighting energy consumption. Birmingham and are in discussion with an interested (c) The Department operates a temperature ‘deadband’ where party. no heating or cooling operates. The ‘deadband’ stops conflict BIS are not the leaseholders for Queensway House in between heating and cooling systems while maintaining a comfortable Billingham. The space is leased from Stockton-On-Tees working environment. borough council. Therefore, this Department does not (d) The Department’s arm’s length bodies are also fully committed receive rent for this space, they pay for their occupation to reducing energy consumption and associated costs. At Companies in this location. House, a biomass boiler has been installed. The 500 kW wood pellet boiler has replaced 2.4 MW gas boilers and now provides BIS no longer occupy any space within Stella House, 88% of heating to the building and this technology will save Newcastle or Westfield House, London. £30,000 annually. 621W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 622W

EU External Trade (2) if he will take steps to ensure that DG Trade in the European Commission meets more environmental interest groups from the UK to discuss the Trans-Atlantic Trade Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for and Investment Partnership negotiations; [206918] Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what his policy is on the investor state dispute settlement mechanism in the (3) if he will take steps to ensure that DG Trade in Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership the European Commission meets more trades unions from the UK to discuss the Trans-Atlantic Trade and agreement; [206910] Investment Partnership negotiations. [206919] (2) what representations he has received from his counterpart in (a) South Africa, (b) Ecuador, (c) Matthew Hancock: The European Commission has India and (d) Indonesia on the investor state dispute been extensively consulting and reporting back as mechanism in the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment negotiations progress on the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Partnership negotiations; [206909] Investment Partnership (TTIP), for example through (3) what assessment he has made of the potential the establishment of their own expert advisory group, effect on consumers of the inclusion of an investor an open door policy for meetings with interested parties, state dispute settlement mechanism in the Trans- and stakeholder events open to all interest groups during Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership agreement; each round of negotiations. The Trade Commissioner [206911] and his senior officials have also contributed extensively to engagement in the UK, by providing evidence to the (4) if he will give a formal response to the report House of Lords during their enquiry into TTIP and by published by LSE Enterprise entitled, Costs and speaking at meetings and events organised both by the Benefits of an EU-US Investment Protection treaty; Government and stakeholders. We support their approach, [206923] and are happy to continue to encourage them to consult (5) what assessment he has made of the rigorousness extensively. of the US judicial system towards business; and under what circumstances he would support a dispute settlement EU External Trade: USA mechanism being included in the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership negotiations. [206924] Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether cross-border use of personal Matthew Hancock: The purpose of an investor-state data is being discussed as part of the Trans-Atlantic dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanism in an investment Trade and Investment Partnership negotiations. [206920] protection agreement is to provide an independent process for foreign investors to seek compensation where they Matthew Hancock: The EU and the USA are exploring believe they have suffered a loss as a result of action by cross-border data flows in the context of the Transatlantic the host state which breaches the provisions of the Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), given their treaty. ISDS provisions can help to create a positive importance to international commerce, in particular in investment climate and promote growth. As such, ISDS services. The European Commission has publicly stated will not have a direct impact on consumers, who will that existing EU rules regarding personal data protection benefit from other elements of the Transatlantic Trade are not on the table. and Investment Partnership (TTIP) and who have separate routes for seeking redress. The UK currently has over Exports: Israel 90 investment protection agreements with other countries. While a number of UK businesses have used ISDS to Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, seek compensation, there has been no successful action Innovation and Skills how many (a) standard individual against the UK in respect of any of these agreements. export licenses and (b) open individual export licences The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills permitting exports to Israel were suspended between 8 has commissioned research into investment protection July and 31 August 2014. [207395] agreements and the ISDS mechanism, reviewed academic research, consulted external experts and carried out its Matthew Hancock: No such export licences were own internal analysis on investment provisions. The suspended in this period of time. ISDS provisions in TTIP are still under negotiation. We believe these provisions must strike the right balance Higher Education: Radicalism between protecting investors and the host nation’s right to regulate and determine policy. Balanced investment protection provisions in TTIP could act as a model for Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for future trade and investment agreements. Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has had with the Minister for Education in the Welsh I am not aware of having received any representations Government on tackling extremism and radicalisation from South Africa, Ecuador, India and Indonesia on in UK universities; and if he will convene a meeting investor state dispute settlement in the TTIP negotiations. with his counterparts in the devolved administrations to discuss this matter. [208390] Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) if he will take steps to ensure Greg Clark: Given my recent appointment to the that DG Trade in the European Commission meets position of Minister for Universities I have not yet had more public interest groups from the UK to discuss the the opportunity to meet with the Minister for Education Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership in the Welsh Government but intend to do so at the negotiations; [206917] earliest convenience. 623W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 624W

In the meantime the Department for Business, Innovation and now involves 28 UK-based exporters of varying and Skills continues to work closely with the Welsh size and export experience. As it stands, the pipeline has Government and other partners in Wales, including 35 potential export contracts that range from £3 million through a ’Preventing Extremism’ regional co-ordinator to over £350 million. Most importantly, the DLF pipeline who supports universities and colleges throughout Wales is growing. to help them prevent radicalisation and tackle extremism. Intellectual Property Unmanned Air Vehicles: Israel

Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills when the Government plans to Innovation and Skills whether the engines used in the respond to the report from the Law Commission entitled Israeli Defence Forces unmanned aerial vehicles have Patents, Trade Marks and Design Rights: Groundless been developed or enhanced with the assistance of UK Threats, published in April 2014. [208207] technology or components. [207381]

Nick Boles: The Government has welcomed the Matthew Hancock: We have identified one licence for publication of the Law Commission’s report. We will be components for unmanned air vehicles for the Israeli giving a full response to the recommendations in the Defence Forces, dating back to 1999. report when detailed analysis has been completed. We expect this to be in the coming months. Royal Mail SCOTLAND Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) meetings and (b) discussions Energy on the privatisation of Royal Mail took place between (i) Ministers, (ii) officials, (iii) the Financial Adviser to Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for HM Government, (iv) the banking syndicate working Scotland what steps he is taking to reduce energy costs on the privatisation and (v) priority investors (A) ahead in his Department; and if he will make a statement. of and (B) since the privatisation of Royal Mail. [208347] [206368] David Mundell: The Scotland Office keeps all costs Matthew Hancock: There were no meetings between under rigorous review. The Office has taken a number Ministers or Officials and investors in the lead up to the of steps to reduce energy costs including (a) ensuring IPO. Regular meetings and discussions took place between central heating is switched off whenever possible, (b) Ministers and Officials, and between Officials and Advisers conducting campaigns to raise awareness in staff of the and Glocos ahead of the IPO. Since then, officials have need to reduce energy costs, and (c) when routine repairs met with members of the banking syndicate and investors and maintenance are being undertaken using the in relation to Select Committee hearings. opportunities to modify existing equipment or install Tax Avoidance more energy efficient ones, and to reduce heat loss.

John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Pay Innovation and Skills whether UK Export Finance monitors the use of booking centres as part of its Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for anti-money laundering policy. [206423] Scotland what the (a) highest and (b) lowest full-time equivalent salary paid by his Department was in (i) Matthew Hancock: UK Export Finance does not 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12, (iii) 2012-13, (iv) 2013-14 and (v) monitor the use of booking centres as such, but undertakes 2014-15; and if he will make a statement. [208291] anti-money laundering due diligence on the export transactions it is asked to support which includes, and is David Mundell: The Scotland Office does not employ not limited to, requiring written assurances in relation staff directly. All staff join on a secondment type basis to money laundering from the institution, normally a from other Government bodies, principally the Scottish bank, from which the UKEF-supported export credit Government and Ministry of Justice, which remain the loan is booked and disbursed. employers. As such there are variations in pay costs Trade Fairs: Farnborough within the administration grades. The information requested is shown as follows: Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for £ Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has (i) 2010-11 (ii) 2011-12 (iii) 2012-13 (iv) 2013-14 made of the net benefit to the UK export sector as a result of the recent Farnborough Airshow. [206009] (a) highest 84,102.96 84,102.96 £119,657.04 £119,657.04 (b) lowest 17,496.96 17,882.04 £18,301.16 £18,000.61 Matthew Hancock: There has been significant interest in UK Export Finance’s (UKEF) Direct Lending Facility (DLF) since its enhancements were announced in the (v) 2014-15 Budget. Since it was relaunched on 30 June 2014, the Not all bodies have set their pay levels for 2014-15 so pipeline of potential export contracts has developed full-time equivalent salary information cannot be provided. 625W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 626W

Written Questions HEALTH Abortion Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what proportion of named day written questions were Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Health answered by his Department within the prescribed period pursuant to the answer of 7 May 2014, Official Report, in the (a) 2012-13 session, (b) 2013-14 session and (c) column 231W, on abortion, when he expects the Royal 2014-15 session to date. [208431] College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists to update its guidance on the possible consequences of abortion. David Mundell: The information requested is shown [208437] as follows: (a) 2012-13 session: 80% of named day questions were answered Jane Ellison: The Royal College of Obstetricians and on the nominated day; Gynaecologists has no immediate plans to update the (b) 2013-14 session: 75% of named day questions were answered guideline ‘The Care of Women Requesting Induced on the nominated day; Abortion’ but will take account of any new and significant (c) 2014-15 to date: 63% of named day questions have been changes which warrant an update. answered on the nominated day. Cancer: Drugs Departmental performance information, for ordinary and named day parliamentary questions, is collated by Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the Office of the Leader of the House of Commons and whether he authorised the recent increase in the Cancer submitted to the Procedure Committee. This is published Drug Fund annual budget; and whether (a) the on a sessional basis by the committee, and includes Clinical Priorities Advisory Group and the Direct evidence regarding departmental performance. The Commissioned Service Committee and (b) the Patient monitoring report relating to the 2012-13 session was and Public Voice Assurance Group were consulted published on 13 February 2014 as HC1046. The report before that decision was taken. [208020] covering statistics relating to performance during the 2013-14 session will be published very shortly by the George Freeman: My right hon. Friend, the Secretary Procedure Committee. of State for Health, agreed that the size of the Cancer Drugs Fund would be increased to £280 million in both 2014-15 and 2015-16. We are advised by NHS England that the Clinical WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Priorities Advisory Group, the Direct Commissioned Service Committee and the Patient and Public Voice Assurance Group were not specifically consulted before this decision was taken. Pay Food: Crime Mr Thomas: To ask the Ministers for Women and Equalities what the (a) highest and (b) lowest full-time Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health equivalent salary paid by the Government Equalities what progress he has made towards the establishment Office was in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12, (iii) 2012-13, (iv) of a Food Crime Unit. [208405] 2013-14 and (v) 2014-15; and if she will make a statement. [208284] Jane Ellison: The Food Standards Agency advises that it has already made progress in establishing the new Jo Swinson: Due to a machinery of government Food Crime Unit. Existing teams that deal with food change in September 2012, the Government Equalities incidents, fraud and intelligence have been reorganised Office became part of the Department for Culture to form the core of the new Unit and recruitment is Media and Sport. DCMS was responsible for the underway for a small number of additional permanent remuneration of GEO employees from June 2013. The and seconded staff to support this. The Food Crime table therefore shows the lowest and highest full-time Unit will be operational, with the first phase incorporating equivalent salaries paid to GEO employees in the financial a well-developed intelligence capability, by the end of years 2013-14 (as at 31/03/14) and 2014-15 (as at 01/09/14). 2014. The highest salary is shown in bands of £5,000, in-line General Practitioners with the Department’s annual disclosure of senior salaries through its annual accounts and reports. Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for £ Health what his policy is on named GPs for NHS Highest salary (given as patients under the age of 75. [207968] Lowest salary range) Dr Poulter: From April 2014 it became a contractual 2010-11 n/a n/a requirement for general practitioners (GPs) that people 2011-12 n/a n/a aged 75 and over should have a named GP responsible 2012-13 n/a n/a for their care. 2013-14 21,501 90,000 – 95,000 2014-15 22,396 90,000 – 95,000 Patients under the age of 75 with complex care needs Note: are included in the Proactive Care Programme and will Figures as at 01/09/14. also have a named GP, regardless of age. 627W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 628W

The Government is exploring how the core principles named educational supervisors in postgraduate training; of proactive, personalised and joined-up out of hospital named clinical supervisors in postgraduate training; care can best be extended beyond the people with the lead coordinators of undergraduate training at each local most complex care needs. education provider; and doctors responsible for overseeing students’ educational progress Health Services for each medical school.

Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for Mesothelioma Health what the next step is in the commissioning of a specialised service after a positive recommendation by Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the Prescribed Specialised Services Advisory Group (PSSAG); what recent discussions his Department has had with whether services recommended for commissioning by the insurance industry on the allocation of monies for PSSAG in September 2014 will be funded from April research into the elimination of mesothelioma. [207987] 2015; when the PSSAG recommendations on the application for a specialised service for Alpha-1 Antitrypsin Deficiency George Freeman: In April this year, my noble Friend will be published; and if he will make a statement. the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Earl Howe) [208035] convened a high level meeting between the Association of British Insurers and the British Lung Foundation Jane Ellison: The Prescribed Specialised Services Advisory (BLF) to discuss how insurers can remain engaged in Group (PSSAG) is a Department of Health expert support for mesothelioma research following earlier committee which provides advice to Ministers on which donated funding. Departmental officials attended this services should be prescribed in regulations for national meeting. Discussions between the BLF and insurers are commissioning by the NHS Commissioning Board (NHS ongoing. The Department has no direct role in these England). discussions but is monitoring progress. PSSAG makes recommendations to Ministers, who Any further funding made available by insurers for are obliged under section 3B of the National Health mesothelioma research will be in addition to existing Service Act 2006 to take appropriate advice and to sources of public funding. The National Institute for consult with NHS England before making regulations Health Research (NIHR) has highlighted to the research to prescribe particular services as specialised services community that it wants to encourage research applications for NHS England commissioning. Decisions on the in mesothelioma. Further details of this are available on timing of any changes to commissioning responsibilities the NIHR website at: will take account of advice from PSSAG and any www.themedcalls.nihr.ac.uk/mesothelioma consultation response from NHS England. Where a service is prescribed for national commissioning, Motor Vehicles: Smoking NHS England becomes responsible for making decisions on the commissioning of that service, including funding Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of specific interventions as part of that service. We what progress his Department has made on the understand from NHS England that where it becomes banning of smoking in cars and other vehicles; and if the responsible commissioner for a service, it considers he will make a statement. [207988] the funding priority of the service through its Clinical Priorities Advisory Group. Jane Ellison: We want to protect children from the We understand the Alpha 1 Alliance has worked with harms associated with second-hand smoke and the NHS England and the Specialised Respiratory Clinical Government will proceed with the introduction of Reference Group to develop a proposal for the national regulations to end smoking in private vehicles carrying commissioning of services for patients with alpha children in England. 1-antitrypsin deficiency, which will be put to PSSAG The consultation, ‘Smoking in private vehicles carrying for consideration at its next meeting on 30 September. children—consultation on proposed regulations to be A report containing PSSAG’s recommendations will be made under the Children and Families Act 2014’, closed published once Ministers have made decisions on any on 27 August 2014. We are now considering all responses associated changes. carefully and will make a decision on the content of the regulations. A summary report will be published in due Medicine: Education course.

Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS: Nurseries Health if he will institute an awards scheme to recognise best practice among doctors who deliver Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for training to medical students. [208322] Health (1) what information his Department holds on the number of NHS trusts that provide nursery Dr Poulter: There are currently no plans to institute facilities for staff and patients; [208187] an awards scheme to recognise best practice among (2) what information his Department holds on the doctors who deliver training to medical students. However, number of nurseries run by NHS trusts that (a) have the General Medical Council has established a phased closed since 2010 and (b) plan to close in the next three process for implementing arrangements for recognising years. [208188] trainers in medical training. All trainers in four specific roles will be fully recognised by 31 July 2016. Dr Poulter: The information requested is not collected The arrangements relate to: centrally. 629W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 630W

NHS: Pay Dr Poulter: The Department works in partnership with NHS England and Health Education England Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if (HEE) to ensure that all nurses trained in the United he will make it his policy to require NHS trusts to Kingdom and registered with the Nursing and Midwifery benchmark executive pay increases against salaries at Council are able to find employment at a UK hospital, similarly performing NHS trusts. [208403] should they wish to. However, some nurses will wish to work in primary, community or social care roles and Dr Poulter: The Government has been clear that some may seek employment with charities or the senior staff must set an example of pay restraint. The independent sector. latest independent report on executive pay in the national HEE is responsible for the number of training places health service from Incomes Data Services shows that for nurses and to ensure that there is an appropriate for the third year running median salary increases for balance between supply and demand of staff in terms non-medical executive directors in the NHS were zero. of numbers, and skills to meet the need of employers to The policy of this and previous Governments is to deliver excellent clinical outcomes together with high allow NHS foundation trusts freedom to set their own quality compassionate care. HEE is working with partner rates of pay for their executive directors, based on the organisations including NHS England, who are responsible assessment of their independent remuneration committees for the creation of available posts, taking into account of what is necessary to recruit, retain and motivate the service demand and staff turnover. these staff. NHS trusts, as organisations seeking to The Royal College of Nursing is an important achieve foundation trust status, are subject to oversight stakeholder representing nurses, but is not responsible of their performance by the NHS Trust Development for training and employing nurses. Authority (TDA). This includes scrutiny of their executive pay. The TDA has obtained information from all NHS Patients: Death trusts on the numbers of staff paid more than £100,000 per annum and the pay of staff in five executive positions Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for also over £100,000. They have used this information to Health how many people have died in hospital in benchmark the data against comparable organisations. England from diseases contracted overseas since NHS trusts are advised by TDA to bring salaries which January 2011. [208114] are outside the normal range, in line with this range when filling any future vacancies. Jane Ellison: It is not possible to provide the information in the format requested as these data are not available. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance his Department issues on whether pay Pay increases at NHS trusts should be linked to the performance of hospitals at those trusts. [208404] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the (a) highest and (b) lowest full-time equivalent Dr Poulter: The pay of all staff in NHS trusts and salary paid by (i) his Department and (ii) its public NHS foundation trusts on medical and dental or Agenda bodies was in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12, (C) 2012-13, for Change terms and conditions is determined by (D) 2013-14 and (E) 2014-15; and if he will make a national contracts. The government decided that all statement. [208285] staff this year and next should receive at least 1% additional pay through annual incremental pay progression Dr Poulter: In line with data protection legislation, or through a non-consolidated addition. The award of the salary information in both the tables attached is any additional pay for staff on Agenda for Change provided as salary ranges, in order to avoid disclosing terms is subject to staff meeting locally agreed performance personal information. standards which may be linked to organisational performance. The government and NHS Employers are For the core Department the information requested negotiating with the British Medical Association with is presented as basic salary ranges in the following table: the aim of linking pay more effectively to performance in the contracts of medical staff. NHS trusts and foundation £000 trusts have freedom to set their own rates of pay for Department salary their executive directors on the advice of their independent information remuneration committees and their pay may include a provided 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 performance-related element. However, the latest independent survey of NHS Boardroom pay from Incomes Lowest full time 16-17 17-18 17-18 17-18 17-18 equivalent salary Data Services indicates that few NHS trusts or foundation range trusts award performance-related bonuses to their executive Highest full time 220- 220- 220- 200- 200- staff. equivalent salary 225 225 225 205 205 Nurses range The Department does not hold centrally the information Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health requested in respect of its arm’s length bodies (ALBs). what discussions he has had with the Royal College of The basic salary range information, provided to the Nursing on ensuring that nurses trained in the UK are Department by these organisations, is presented in the able to obtain nursing posts at UK hospitals. [208400] following table. 631W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 632W

£000 Information provided (Full- time equivalent (FTE) salary Name of ALB range 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15

Care Quality Commission Lowest 10-15 10-15 10-15 10-15 10-15 Highest 175-180 175-180 185-190 235-240 235-240

NHS England Lowest n/a n/a n/a 10-15 10-15 Highest n/a n/a n/a 210-215 190-195

Health and Social Care Lowest 15-20 15-20 15-20 15-20 15-20 Information Centre Highest 225-230 220-225 220-225 220-225 180-185

Health Education England Lowest n/a n/a n/a 10-15 10-15 (HEE) Highest n/a n/a n/a 175-180 175-180

Human Fertilisation & Lowest 15-20 20-25 20-25 20-25 20-25 Embryology Authority Highest 160-165 160-165 130-135 130-135 130-135

Health Research Authority Lowest n/a 15-20 15-20 15-20 15-20 Highest n/a 115-120 115-120 115-120 115-120

Human Tissue Authority Lowest 20-25 20-25 20-25 20-25 20-25 Highest 80-85 95-100 100-105 100-105 100-105

Monitor Lowest 20-25 20-25 20-25 20-25 20-25 Highest 240-245 240-245 225-230 230-235 230-235

National Institute for Health Lowest 10-15 15-20 15-20 5-10 5-10 and Care Excellence Highest 180-185 180-185 180-185 185-190 185-190 NHS Blood & Transplant Lowest 10-15 10-15 10-15 15-20 15-20 Highest 205-210 205-210 205-210 215-220 215-220

NHS Business Services Lowest 10-15 10-15 10-15 10-15 10-15 Authority Highest 150-155 150-155 150-155 150-155 150-155

NHS Litigation Authority Lowest 15-20 10-15 10-15 10-15 10-15 Highest 140-145 140-145 140-145 140-145 140-145

NHS Trust Development Lowest n/a n/a n/a 15-20 15-20 Authority (NHS TDA)4 Highest n/a n/a n/a 205-210 205-210

Public Health England Lowest n/a n/a n/a 10-15 10-15 Highest n/a n/a n/a 185-190 185-190

Medicines & Healthcare Lowest 15,530-19,478 15,530-19,748 17,459-20,567 17,459-20,567 14,294-17,245 Products Regulatory Agency Highest 190 -195 190-195 190-195 170-175 170-175 NHS England did not formally exist prior to 1 April 2013. HEE took on its formal responsibilities on 1 April 2013. The £5,000 - £10,000 full time salary bracket relates to payments to apprentices. 4 The NHS TDA was fully established in April 2013. 633W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 634W

Pets: Disease Control Mr Ellwood: We remain deeply concerned about the ability of terrorist groups in Iraq and Syria to acquire Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for weapons and commit atrocities. Health what steps his Department is taking to inform The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) has the public of the risk of contracting diseases from obtained its weaponry from a variety of sources, including household pets. [208109] by capturing them from Iraqi and Syrian security forces. Many of ISIL’s supply needs are financed by its sale of Jane Ellison: Infections that can be passed from oil and by money stolen during its advances in recent animals to people are known as zoonoses. However months. transmission of zoonotic infections from domestic pets We have emphasised the need to intensify efforts to to humans is rare and the risk of contracting diseases stem the flow of weapons and fighters to extremist from domestic pets is low, even in groups with increased groups, including ISIL. Hundreds of foreigners are susceptibility to infection such as immunocompromised fighting with ISIL, gaining combat experience and individuals and pregnant women. Risks can be reduced potentially forging connections with other extremists. further by adopting simple measures such as good As part of its strategy to combat ISIL, the UK led work hygiene practices, and for pregnant women avoiding on UN Security Council Resolution 2170, adopted on contact with cat litter trays. General information on 15 August 2014, which condemns ISIL, Al Nusra Front zoonotic infections acquired from pets and advice on (ANF) and other terrorist groups listed under Al Qaida reducing the risk is provided on the NHS Choices sanctions. The resolution urges members to take measures website: to choke off recruitment and to target the growing www.nhs.uk/livewell/allergies/pages/pet-hygiene.aspx phenomenon of foreign terrorist fighters and ISIL’s sources of finance. Public Health England (PHE) is the agency which monitors zoonotic infections in people. PHE assesses the risk of zoonoses, identifies groups where there may Pay be increased risk and produces appropriate advice and information on specific zoonoses. This is available to Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the public and is accessible through the PHE website: Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the (a) www.gov.uk/government/collections/zoonotic-diseases- highest and (b) lowest full-time equivalent salary paid zoonoses-guidance-data-and-analysis by (i) his Department and (ii) its public bodies was in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12, (C) 2012-13, (D) 2013-14 and Written Questions (E) 2014-15; and if he will make a statement. [208283] Mr Ellwood: Foreign Office salaries are determined Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health by a range of factors including grade of the person, what proportion of named day written questions were performance and length of time in employment. answered by his Department within the prescribed Details of our salary ranges can be found through the (a) (b) period in the 2012-13 session, 2013-14 session Data.gov.uk website on the FCO staff and salary data (c) [208426] and 2014-15 session to date. pages, and details of our highest paid staff can be found in the FCO Annual accounts in the Remuneration Dr Poulter: Departmental performance information, section on page 63 in the 2013-14 accounts. All FCO for ordinary and named day Parliamentary Questions, staff who earn more than £150,000 are also published is collated by the Office of the Leader of the House of by Cabinet Office on the Gov.uk ″high earners” pages. Commons and submitted to the Procedure Committee. This is published on a sessional basis by the committee, and includes evidence regarding departmental performance. Russia The monitoring report relating to the 2012-13 session was published on 13 February 2014 as HC1046. The Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for report covering statistics relating to performance during Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many Russian the 2013-14 session will be published very shortly by the diplomats are serving with so-called diplomatic immunity Procedure Committee. in the Russian embassy in London; and if he will make a statement. [208186] In the 2014-15 session, as of 5 September, the Department has received 463 named day questions and answered James Duddridge: The Foreign and Commonwealth 460 on the date named for answer or 99% on deadline. Office has records of 143 diplomats posted to the embassy of the Russian Federation in London. In accordance with the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961, the Government grants immunity to FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE diplomats posted to the embassy of the Russian Federation according to their status. Islamic State Ukraine: Russia Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for has received on the sources of supply to Islamic State Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he militants of their weapons and training; and if he will has received on a link between pro-Russian rebels in make a statement. [208183] Ukraine and the Russian government. [208105] 635W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 636W

Mr Lidington: The Russian Government has been In 2013-14 the FCO received 721 named day questions, linked with the crisis in Ukraine since its beginning, of which 713 (98.9%) were answered on time. As at 5 when some Russian servicemen were given state medals September 2014, 195 named day questions had been for their role in the illegal annexation of Crimea in spite tabled with dates for answer on or before 5 September, of initial denials by Russia that they had been involved. of which 185 (94.8%) had been answered on time. On 28 August the Prime Minister expressed his concern by further mounting evidence of Russian troop involvement in Ukraine. This followed the release of satellite imagery INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT taken by NATO on 21 and 23 August which showed Russian self-propelled artillery units inside Ukraine in China the vicinity of the Luhansk province. Brigadier-General Nico Tak, Head of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation’s Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for (NATO) crisis management centre, said that NATO International Development what steps she is taking to had also detected large quantities of advanced weapons, encourage clothing retailers to interrogate their supply including air defence systems, artillery, tanks and armoured chains in China to assess the working conditions of personnel carriers being transferred to separatist forces people working in that country. [208392] in eastern Ukraine. On 28 August the British ambassador to the UN Mr Swayne: The UK Government works with business made a statement which detailed evidence he had received to provide guidance for companies to meet their obligations further demonstrating the extent of Russian involvement to respect human rights throughout their operations. in Ukraine. The separatist arsenal included up to 100 Recent changes to the Companies Act have strengthened Main Battle Tanks; 80 Armoured Personnel Carriers; requirements for company reporting to include these 100 MANPADs; 500 Anti-Tank weapons; and over 100 issues. artillery pieces. Almost all of these were supplied directly DFID has developed a package of activities—including by Russia since the conflict started. engagement with clothing retailers—to address unsafe On 15 August a convoy of 23 armoured personnel working conditions in the garment sector in Bangladesh, carriers crossed into Ukraine close to where the Russian following the Rana Plaza disaster in 2013, which will humanitarian convoy was awaiting customs clearance. have wider benefits. In terms of UK companies engaging The following day a further convoy of 84 military with HMG on working conditions, DFID does not vehicles crossed the border. have a bilateral programme with China. On 7 August, 50 vehicles, including tanks, armoured Palestinians personnel carriers, and BM-21 GRAD Multiple Rocket Launchers crossed from Russia into Ukraine at the Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Chervonopartisansk border crossing. International Development what proportion of the financial On 25 August, 10 Russian paratroopers belonging to contribution to humanitarian aid and reconstruction in the 331st Regiment of the 98th Svirsk Airborne Division Gaza is spent on the purchase of goods and services were captured near the village of Dzerkaln—20 km from Israel. [208048] inside Ukrainian territory. Satellite imagery confirmed the deployment of Russian armoured vehicles supported Mr Swayne: DFID works with trusted and established by artillery south of Donetsk close to this location. On international partners like the World Food Programme 28 August another Russian soldier, Petr Khokhlov, and the UN Relief and Works Agency to deliver our serving with the 9th Motor Rifle Brigade, was captured development and humanitarian objectives in Gaza. Our and detained in Luhansk. partners make every effort to procure relief items locally in Gaza or the West Bank. However the priority is and In light of this evidence, it is not credible for Russia must remain to do all we can to get aid to the people and pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk to who need it most in a timely fashion. claim that these serving members of the Russian armed forces were in Ukraine ‘by accident’ or ‘on holiday’. Sudan Russia can no longer pretend that it is not a direct party to this conflict, indeed this conflict would no Mark Durkan: To ask the Secretary of State for longer exist without direct Russian military involvement International Development what recent assessment she in support of the separatists. The Prime Minister has has made of humanitarian conditions in eastern Sudan. called for such activity to cease immediately and has [208191] warned of further sanctions if Russia’s behaviour continues. Lynne Featherstone: The UK remains extremely Written Questions concerned about the humanitarian situation in eastern Sudan. The needs assessment carried out to inform the Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 2014 UN response showed that health and nutrition and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion of named indicators were above emergency thresholds in many day written questions were answered by his Department locations and access to services was extremely poor. A within the prescribed period in the (a) 2012-13 session, UK funded UNICEF national nutrition survey revealed (b) 2013-14 session and (c) 2014-15 session to date. large numbers of children were suffering from acute [208425] malnutrition especially in Kassala and Red Sea State. These findings have been incorporated into the recently Mr Lidington: In 2012-13 the Foreign and revised Humanitarian Strategic Response Plan for 2014 Commonwealth Office (FCO) received 572 named day which is used for determining where donor resources questions, of which 570 (99.7%) were answered on time. are allocated. 637W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 638W

The UN’s Common Humanitarian Fund (CHF) plays EU Law an important role in funding the humanitarian response in Sudan using the Strategic Response Plan as a guide. Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for In 2014 the UK contributed £17 million to the CHF. We Communities and Local Government how many times are also investing in longer term programmes to build the UK has lost EU infraction proceedings since May the resilience of communities and improve access to 2010 which relate to matters that fall within his water and sanitation in eastern Sudan. Department’s responsibility. [206651]

Ukraine Kris Hopkins: The Department has never lost an EU infraction case. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Voluntary Work: Religion International Development what estimate she has made of the level of UK aid in Ukraine since January 2014. Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for [208106] Communities and Local Government what activities were undertaken by participants in his Department’s A Justine Greening: The UK Government has provided Year in Service scheme in 2012. [208023] £3.4 million in aid to Ukraine since January 2014 and a further £11.49 million has been allocated for this financial Stephen Williams: A ‘Year of Service’ was the joint year. initiative of nine faith communities, facilitated by my Department with the Mitzvah Day Charitable Trust. It aimed to celebrate volunteering among people of faith, support integration through cross faith social action connected to faith festivals, and showcase the ongoing COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT volunteering in faith communities. Its inspiration was the dedicated service of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth Affordable Housing: Rural Areas II in her Jubilee year, along with the imperative to serve found in the writings and beliefs of each faith community. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for It is one of a number of integration projects that my Communities and Local Government what estimate his Department is funding to bring people together from Department has made of the proportion of affordable different backgrounds and help build stronger communities homes delivered through section 106 agreements on in partnership with voluntary organisations, businesses sites of fewer than 10 homes in rural areas in each of and local residents. the last five years. [208162] During 2012, nearly 200 multi-faith projects were supported. I have placed in the Library of the House a Brandon Lewis: There are no national statistics available copy of the end of project report. The ongoing ‘Together indicating the proportion of affordable homes delivered in Service’ programme builds on its success. through section 106 agreements on sites of fewer than 10 homes in rural areas in each of the last five years. Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government’s public consultation on proposed Communities and Local Government what activities changes to national policy on section 106 planning are undertaken by participants in his Department’s obligations agreements closed on 4 May 2014. Interested Together in Service scheme. [208024] parties were invited to submit evidence on potential Stephen Williams: ‘Together in Service’ is a £200,000 local impacts of the proposed measures, both in terms grant programme that aims to celebrate the practical of developer contributions to infrastructure and affordable contribution that faith communities make to society housing, and on unblocking stalled sites and increasing through volunteering, and to motivate and inspire new the pace and scale of small site development. Unrealistic multi-faith social action projects. It builds on the success section 106 agreements result in no housing development, of the ‘A Year of Service’ programme held during 2012 no regeneration and no community benefits. Over 300 to mark the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee. responses were received and the Government is now carefully considering the evidence submitted before It is one of a number of integration projects that my announcing the outcomes of the consultation. Department is funding to bring people together from different backgrounds and help build stronger communities in partnership with voluntary organisations, businesses Business Plans and local residents. Detail for each of the projects awarded funding through Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for the Together in Service scheme can be found here: Communities and Local Government how frequently http://www.togetherinservice.net/funding/projects the information on the current status of actions in his Department’s business plan shown on www.transparency.number10.gov.uk/business-plan/2 is updated; and when that information was most recently CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT updated. [207861] Broadband

Kris Hopkins: Updates on actions are submitted to Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Cabinet Office each month for inclusion on the Number Culture, Media and Sport what progress his Department 10 website. The last update was submitted in August has made on the Broadband Delivery UK programme; 2014. and if he will make a statement. [208407] 639W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 640W

Mr Vaizey: The Government’s superfast broadband EDUCATION programme has made available superfast broadband to over 1 million premises and, with roll-out out progressing Children in Care rapidly at 40,000 premises passed per week, the programme is on target to extend superfast coverage to 90% of Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for premises by early 2016 and to 95% by December 2017. Education with reference to her Department’s report on Improving Permanence for Looked After Children, published in September 2013, what assessment she has TRANSPORT made of the evidence from case studies cited on page 40 of that report, that local authorities can make Driving Offences significant financial savings through effective support for a child returning home from care; and if she will Andrew Bingham: To ask the Secretary of State for take full account of that evidence in her forthcoming Transport if he will take steps to ensure that foreign response to the consultation on looked-after children. drivers are subject to the same penalties as British [208352] drivers upon failure to produce relevant CPC documentation. [207991] Mr Timpson: In 2013, the Department for Education consulted on a range of proposals to improve permanence Claire Perry: All professional drivers of lorries, buses for looked-after children. The Department will take and coaches from EU member states are required to into account a range of evidence, including the financial produce the relevant CPC documentation when requested case for improved practice in local authorities, to deciding by enforcement officers. I can confirm that non-UK how best to proceed and will publish a formal response drivers from EU member states are subject to the same later this year. The Government has also commissioned penalties as their British counterparts should they fail the National Children’s Bureau and the Centre for to do so. Child and Family Research at Loughborough university to deliver an action research project. The project is M1 working with front-line practitioners and families to support improved practice in returning children home, Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for and includes a focus on developing cost-effective services Transport when he expects the roadworks on the M1 that help support children to return home successfully motorway north of junction 28 to be completed and from care. the stretch of the M1 between that junction and the Schools: Radicalism M18 to be totally devoid of roadworks. [207811] Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hayes: The M1 Junction 28-31 smart motorway Education what recent discussions she has had with the scheme will be fully open to traffic in autumn 2015. Welsh Government Minister for Education on tackling Pedestrian Crossings extremism and radicalisation in schools; and whether she has any plans for a meeting with her counterparts Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for in the devolved Administrations to discuss tackling Transport what assessment he has made of the Transport extremism and radicalisation. [208164] Research Laboratory review of pedestrian walking speeds Mr Timpson: The Secretary of State for Education, and time needed to cross the road; and whether he plans my right hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough to update the current guidance on pedestrian crossings (Nicky Morgan), has not discussed extremism and in response. [208314] radicalisation with the Minister for Education in the Mr Goodwill: The Department notes the Welsh Government. Officials from the Department for recommendation that the relevant guidance on this Education have, however, met their counterparts in the subject should be updated. Welsh Government to discuss matters of common interest relating to extremism and will continue to do so as The Department expects to bring the successor to the necessary. Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, which will include all pedestrian crossing types, into force in Special Educational Needs 2015 and once that is complete will consider the need to update existing guidance. Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) what guidance her Department issues to Road Signs and Markings schools on what action to take when a student with special educational needs is physically attacked by Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for other pupils on school property; [208192] Transport with reference to the answer of 6 March (2) what records are (a) maintained schools and (b) 2014, Official Report, column 942W, on road signs and independent schools required to keep of instances where markings, when he expects to publish his Department’s students have verbally abused a student with special review of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General educational needs. [208159] Directions. [208326] Mr Timpson: The Department for Education has not Mr Goodwill: The Department for Transport expects issued specific guidance for schools on what action to to bring the successor to the Traffic Signs Regulations take when a student with special educational needs and General Directions 2002 (as amended) into force in (SEN) is physically attacked by other pupils. Schools March 2015. have a duty to safeguard all children, particularly those 641W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 642W in need of additional support which includes pupils HOME DEPARTMENT with SEN. An attack may constitute a criminal offence and our anti-bullying advice to schools is clear that staff Apprentices should seek assistance from the police if they feel an offence has been committed. In April 2014, the Department Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for issued guidance which sets out what schools and colleges the Home Department what discussions she and Ministers must do to safeguard and promote the welfare of children in her Department have had with Ministers in the and young people under the age of 18.1 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on the The Government has made tackling all forms of proposed reform of apprenticeships; what effect those bullying and harassment in schools a priority. It is never discussions will have on her Department’s projects and acceptable for any child to be bullied, victimised or the work of their supply chain; and whether officials in harmed in any way.We have issued guidance for maintained her Department sit on programme boards managing and independent schools on preventing and tackling all the reform. [208212] forms of bullying.2 In February and March, we issued updated advice on Karen Bradley: Home Office Ministers and officials tough but permissible sanctions to manage poor behaviour have meetings with a wide variety of international which includes bullying;3 issued a leaflet about bullying partners, as well as organisations and individuals in the which outlines in one place schools’ responsibilities to public and private sectors, as part of the process of support bullied children;4 and issued case studies on policy development and delivery. how good schools manage bullying.5 Details of ministerial meetings with external organisations Schools are not required by law to collect information and individuals are passed to the Cabinet Office on a on the number of students with SEN who have been quarterly basis and are subsequently published on the verbally abused. However, all schools are required by Cabinet Office website which is available here: law, to have a behaviour policy with measures to address https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ministers- all forms of bullying. Schools have the freedom to meetings-with-external-organisations-jul-sep-2013 develop their own approaches for monitoring bullying; The Home Office does not currently have officials for some, this may involve recording and monitoring sitting on programme boards managing the reform of specific incidents, while others prefer to survey pupils apprenticeships. anonymously. Whatever method schools use, maintained schools are held to account by Ofsted for how well they Energy deal with pupil behaviour and safety, which includes scrutiny of records and analysis of bullying including Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for the disability-related bullying. Independent schools are held Home Department what steps she is taking to reduce to account by the Independent Schools Inspectorate energy costs in her Department; and if she will make a (ISI) for their effectiveness in promoting good behaviour statement. [208343] and guarding against harassment and bullying, including unacceptable behaviour, taking due account of any Karen Bradley: The 2013-14 Home Office Annual related difficulty or disability. Report and Accounts (ARAc) details the work undertaken In addition, we are providing £4 million of funding by the Department to reduce energy costs. Excluding over two years from spring 2013 to four organisations— the Department’s arm’s length bodies, direct energy Beatbullying, the Diana Award, Kidscape and the Anti- costs reduced from £8,050,707 at 2009-10 prices to bullying Alliance (ABA) with the National Children’s £6,231,669 at 2013-14 prices. The Report can be found Bureau (NCB)—to develop effective initiatives that prevent at: and tackle all forms of bullying. The ABA/NCB project https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ also trains schools to prevent and tackle bullying of attachment_data/file/321446/ARA_web_enabled_18_June.pdf students with a special educational need or disability. It has published a guide to cyber-bullying for SEND EU Law young people, which contains advice for schools on developing effective anti-bullying practice and we link Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the to this report in our departmental advice on bullying. Home Department how many new EU directives and 1 Available at: regulations have been transposed into UK law by her www.gov.uk/government/publications/keeping-children-safe-in- Department since May 2010. [207262] education 2 Available at: Karen Bradley: The Home Office has transposed three directives since May 2010. In addition, five EU Regulations www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-tackling- bullying for which the Home Office is responsible have come 3 into force in the same period. Regulations have direct Available at: effect and do not require transposition. www.gov.uk/government/publications/behaviour-and-discipline- in-schools Written Questions 4 Available at: www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-tackling- Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for the bullying Home Department what proportion of named day written 5 Available at: questions were answered by her Department within the www.gov.uk/government/collections/managing-behaviour-and- prescribed period in the (a) 2012-13 session, (b) 2013-14 bullying-in-schools-case-studies session and (c) 2014-15 session to date. [208427] 643W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 644W

Karen Bradley: Departmental performance information, To help deal with the deficit which this Government for ordinary and named day Parliamentary Questions, inherited in 2010, the Government has reduced the size is collated by the Office of the Leader of the House of of the Civil Service by 17% since the 2010 General Commons and submitted to the Procedure Committee. Election. It is now at its smallest since the Second World This is published on a sessional basis by the committee, War, representing a significant increase in efficiency and and includes evidence regarding departmental performance. productivity. This reduction helped save taxpayers £2.4 The monitoring report relating to the 2012-13 session billion last year alone, against a 2009/10 baseline. was published on 13 February 2014 as HC1046. The report covering statistics relating to performance during NESTA the 2013-14 session will be published very shortly by the Procedure Committee. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many meetings he had with Nesta between 2010 and 2012. [208580] CABINET OFFICE Youth Services Provision Mr Maude: As part of my Department’s transparency programme, details of ministerial meetings with external 9. Ian Mearns: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet organisations are published on the Cabinet Office website Office what steps he is taking to maintain the level of at: youth services provision. [905304] https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/ministers- transparency-publications Mr Newmark: We are working to offer practical support to the youth sector at a time when local authorities Voluntary Work: Young People continue to make difficult decisions on how to deliver services. This support focuses on promoting delivery models for innovative services, including mutuals, and Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet better measurement of the impact of youth services on Office how many people have participated in National the lives of young people. Citizen Service schemes in (a) England and (b) North Swindon in each year since 2010. [208518] National Citizen Service Mr Newmark: National Citizen Service has been run 10. Caroline Nokes: To ask the Minister for the in England since 2011. In the first year of pilots 8,434 Cabinet Office what assessment he has made of the took part and in the second 25,377. In 2013’s session effectiveness of the summer 2014 National Citizen Service there were 39,994 participants. programmes. [905305] The 2014 NCS programme is ongoing and the number of participants will be reported as part of an Mr Newmark: The National Citizen Service has independent evaluation following the conclusion of the grown significantly this summer with the programme programme. seeing its 100,000th participant. Details of participation rates have been held at local Social Action and Volunteering authority level since 2012. In Wiltshire there were 69 participants in 2012 and 174 in 2013’s Session. 11. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what recent steps the Government have taken to promote social action and volunteering. [905306] ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Mr Newmark: Social action, including volunteering, is changing lives. This Government—through the Fuel Poverty Centre for Social Action—is proud to be supporting projects that put social action into practice. Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Cabinet Office and Nesta recently hosted the ‘People Energy and Climate Change (1) what estimate his Helping People’ conference to promote the important Department has made of the number of fuel poor opportunities social action presents. households under the low-income high costs definition in (a) Wales and (b) Scotland; [208328] Civil Servants: Yorkshire and the Humber (2) what estimate his Department has made of the number of fuel poor households under the low-income Hugh Bayley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet high costs definition in (a) Wales and (b) Scotland Office how many full-time equivalent jobs with the Civil with an energy performance certificate rating of (i) A, Service or government agencies there were in Yorkshire (ii) B, (iii) C, (iv) D, (v) E, (vi) F and (vii) G. [208327] in May 2010; and how many such jobs there are now. [905301] Amber Rudd: Fuel poverty is a devolved matter. The Mr Maude: On 31 March 2010, there were 38,000 2014 fuel poverty statistics include a discussion of fuel full-time equivalent Civil Servants employed in the poverty in the United Kingdom. They are available Yorkshire and the Humber region. The latest available here: statistics for 2013 show that this number reduced to https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ 31,590 as at 31 March 2013. attachment_data/file/319280/Fuel_Poverty_Report_Final.pdf 645W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 646W

Natural Gas Total named day parliamentary questions Percentage answered on Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Session (number) the day Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has 2012-13 502 85 made of the effect on the UK economy of the supply of 2013-14 481 90 gas from Russia to Europe being cut off. [207362] 2014-15 (end 42 81 July 2014) Matthew Hancock: The direct risk to the UK’s own energy supply is low as we currently source less than 1% of our gas from Russia and have a well-functioning gas market able to access a diverse range of supplies from NORTHERN IRELAND domestic producers, Norway, LNG and storage, as well as the continent. There would, nevertheless, be potential Administrative Scheme for the ″On the Runs″ indirect impacts if Europe as a whole stopped receiving Independent Review Russian gas. With the system operator (National Grid) we have assessed, and continue to assess, the impacts of Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for the complete cessation of the gas supply from Russia to Northern Ireland with reference to the report of the Europe on the UK and will include the latest analysis as Hallett Review, how in the absence of the lost records a part of the annual DECC/Ofgem Statutory Security of beneficiary of the Royal Prerogative of Mercy prior to Supply Report. 1997 is able to demonstrate the grant of the exercise of The impact on the UK economy would depend on the Royal Prerogative; and if she will make a statement. the length and type of disruption. As many external [206670] bodies have noted, the impact on prices would depend upon the length of disruption, the costs of LNG imports Mrs Villiers: The Hallett Review drew attention to and storage levels in the EU. issues regarding record-keeping about the RPM, which the Northern Ireland Office is addressing. The Hallett DECC commissioned a 2011 report from Oxford Review did not deal with the exercise of the RPM prior Economics looking at the effect of fossil fuel price to 1997 but only touches upon it in passing. During the shocks on the UK economy. DECC uses this report to pre-1998 period the use of RPM was relatively common: inform its general understanding of the impacts of gas it was not recorded centrally and records are likely to price shocks. This paper can be found on the HMG have been destroyed in accordance with proper protocols. website: Where the RPM was used prior to 1997 to remit (i.e. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fossil-fuel-price- shorten) the sentences of individuals who had already shocks-and-a-low-carbon-economy been convicted of offences, their release from custody can, on occasion, provide some evidence of the exercise of the RPM. In addition, there may in some cases, be Wind Power contemporaneous correspondence which provides evidence of the exercise of the RPM. Mr Lilley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what studies his Department has Children: Abuse made of the effects on the life expectancy and reliability of wind generators of using combined cycle generating Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for turbines to provide balancing capacity. [207568] Northern Ireland if she will take steps to ensure Kincora Boys Home, formerly in Belfast, is included Matthew Hancock: We do not expect the use of within the over-arching inquiry into the sexual abuse of combined cycle generating turbines to have any impact children commissioned by the Home Office; and if she on the life expectancy or reliability of wind turbines. will make a statement. [207795] This Government believes that balancing capacity is Mrs Villiers: The inquiry panel of experts, announced best achieved by pursuing a balanced energy policy, by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on 7 July comprising a mix of renewables, nuclear, and fossil fuels 2014, is currently being set up. It will review whether with carbon capture and storage, to ensure that we are public bodies and other non-state institutions have taken not over-reliant upon any one technology. seriously their duty of care to protect children from sexual abuse. Written Questions My right hon. Friend informed the House on 5 September 2014 that it will be chaired by Fiona Woolf. Its terms of reference are yet to be determined Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy but the Home Secretary will consider carefully any and Climate Change what proportion of named day representations made concerning those. written questions were answered by his Department The inquiry will co-operate fully with devolved within the prescribed period in the (a) 2012-13 session, Administrations, and in Wales it will consider some (b) 2013-14 session and (c) 2014-15 session to date. non-devolved matters relating to institutions there such [208423] as policing. As these equivalent issues are devolved to the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Amber Rudd: The information requested is in the Executive it will be a matter for those Administrations following table: to consider how they should be addressed. 647W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 648W

The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my Mrs Villiers: I recently met with the chair and members right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs of the RUC George Cross Foundation when we discussed May) has given an assurance that the Home Office will the issue of the RUC memorial. Responsibility for this talk to the devolved Administrations and work with issue rests with the Department of Justice and I have them in respect of this Inquiry. undertaken to raise the matter with the Justice Minster in the near future. Domestic Visits

Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for CHURCH COMMISSIONERS Northern Ireland pursuant to the answer of 14 July 2014, Official Report, columns 462-63W, on domestic Church of England: Land visits, what domestic visits she has made since January 2013; and what the purpose of each such visit was. Helen Goodman: To ask the right hon. Member for [208445] Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, whether the Church Commissioners have set criteria Mrs Villiers: This information could be provided excluding some bidders from the purchase of its land only at disproportionate cost. currently for sale near Bishop Auckland. [R] [208259]

Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission Sir Tony Baldry: The Church Commissioners are operating an open and transparent marketing and bidding Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for process for the property for sale near Bishop Auckland. Northern Ireland what her most recent assessment is of The Church Commissioners’ bidding process leaves the adequacy of the budget provision for the Northern no room for undue influence by any interested party. Ireland Human Rights Commission. [208393] The Church Commissioners have not set criteria that would exclude any party from submitting offers, and all Mrs Villiers: Like all UK Government Departments, offers will be considered without prejudice or preference. the Northern Ireland Office faces a significant reduction in its budget in the 2015-16 financial year. That is why As a registered charity the Church Commissioners my Department requested an impact statement of all of are under a legal duty to demonstrate that they have its arm’s length bodies on the measures that might be maximised the proceeds of sale of their assets to fund taken by them to meet a proportionate share of the the wider mission and ministry of the Church of England, necessary reduction. No final decisions have been made particularly in areas of need. in respect of the Commission’s budget, but we are Helen Goodman: To ask the right hon. Member for currently working with it in light of its impact statement. Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, for Parades: Belfast what reasons land owned by the Church near Bishop Auckland is for sale. [R] [208260]

Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Sir Tony Baldry: The Church Commissioners own Ireland what (a) discussions and (b) correspondence areas of land across England, including four rural she has had with the Parades Commission on summer estates in the north-east. As with other land and property parades in North Belfast since 11 July 2014. [207973] owners, we review these holdings from time to time, based on a variety of commercial and other factors. Mrs Villiers: In the period since 11 July 2014, I have Following a review, the Commissioners took the decision had a meeting with the chair of the Parades Commission to offer a number of farms in the Bishop Auckland area and a telephone conversation with other commission on the open market. They continue to own other land members. These conversations formed part of a wider and estates in County Durham. range of discussions and meetings I have had with political parties and other key parading stakeholders on Helen Goodman: To ask the right hon. Member for whether to establish a new initiative to look at parading Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, for issues in North Belfast. what reasons the land for sale at Binchester has been In discussion, I was keen to reassure members of the divided into two lots. [208262] commission that in considering any such proposal, a key guiding principle would be my determination that it Sir Tony Baldry: The estate is being offered as a must not undermine the role or remit of the commission whole or in 10 separate lots. Lot 5 is a working farm and as the responsible, lawful authority. I have had no part of the farm includes largely unexcavated parts of written correspondence with the commission since 11 the Binchester Roman Fort. The excavated part of the July this year. Fort, and the other unexcavated area, form part of Lot 6. The lotting takes account of a number of factors Royal Ulster Constabulary including practical boundaries and issues on the ground. For instance, if all of the unexcavated areas had been Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State included in Lot 6, Binchester Hall Farmhouse and yard for Northern Ireland if she will undertake a review of would be severed from the rest of the farm holding. the condition of the RUC George Cross Association memorial at the National Memorial in Staffordshire; Helen Goodman: To ask the right hon. Member for and if she will takes steps to ensure that resources are Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, allocated for the upkeep and maintenance of that what steps are being taken to ensure continued public memorial. [208057] access to Binchester Roman Fort. [208263] 649W Written Answers10 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 650W

Sir Tony Baldry: Binchester Roman Fort is a scheduled Television ancient monument. It is a criminal offence to disturb a scheduled ancient monument by carrying out works without Scheduled Monument Consent, or causing reckless Mr Bradshaw: To ask the right hon. Member for or deliberate damage to the monument. To offer best Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, how protection, public access to the excavated parts of the much the Church Commissioners spent on televisions Fort is managed and controlled in accordance with a in (a) 2013 and (b) 2014 to date. [207143] Deed of Guardianship with Durham County Council. This means that, as Guardians, Durham County Council Sir Tony Baldry: The Church Commissioners have must allow access to the site, but are able to do so in not purchased any televisions during the specified period. such a way as protects and preserves the site for the Three televisions have been purchased since 2013 for future. The property will be sold subject to this Deed of other departments of the National Church Institutions Guardianship. at an average price of £289.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 10 September 2014

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 889 CABINET OFFICE—continued Big Society Network ...... 889 Social Enterprises...... 893 Government Reform (Savings Programme)...... 892 Topical Questions ...... 895 Political Activity (Charity Commission Guidance) ...... 890 Public Service User Satisfaction Data ...... 894 PRIME MINISTER ...... 897 SMEs (Government Procurement)...... 894 Engagements...... 897 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 10 September 2014

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 37WS TREASURY ...... 37WS Governance in Local Government ...... 37WS UK Guarantees Scheme ...... 37WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 40WS Immigration and Nationality Services...... 40WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 10 September 2014

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION TRANSPORT ...... 13P Human Rights in Jammu and Kashmir...... 13P Rail link from Penzance to Paddington...... 13P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 10 September 2014

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 594W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS—continued Energy...... 594W Television...... 650W Written Questions ...... 594W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 637W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 618W Affordable Housing: Rural Areas...... 637W Arms Trade: Exports...... 618W Business Plans...... 637W Arms Trade: Saudi Arabia ...... 619W EU Law...... 638W Buildings...... 619W Voluntary Work: Religion ...... 638W Business: Loans...... 620W Defence Equipment: Exhibitions ...... 620W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 638W Energy...... 620W Broadband ...... 638W EU External Trade...... 621W EU External Trade: USA...... 622W DEFENCE...... 606W Exports: Israel...... 622W Afghanistan ...... 606W Higher Education: Radicalism ...... 622W Armed Forces ...... 607W Intellectual Property ...... 623W Armed Forces Covenant: South West...... 609W Royal Mail ...... 623W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 613W Tax Avoidance ...... 623W Army: Recruitment ...... 615W Trade Fairs: Farnborough...... 623W Army Reserve ...... 614W Unmanned Air Vehicles: Israel...... 624W Defence Infrastructure Organisation...... 615W CABINET OFFICE...... 643W Energy...... 616W Civil Servants: Yorkshire and the Humber ...... 643W Information...... 616W National Citizen Service ...... 643W Iraq...... 616W NESTA ...... 644W Nuclear Weapons...... 617W Social Action and Volunteering...... 643W Public Records: Northern Ireland ...... 618W Voluntary Work: Young People ...... 644W Warships ...... 618W Youth Services Provision ...... 643W EDUCATION...... 640W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 648W Children in Care...... 640W Church of England: Land...... 648W Schools: Radicalism ...... 640W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION—continued INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 636W Special Educational Needs...... 640W China ...... 636W Palestinians ...... 636W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 644W Sudan...... 636W Fuel Poverty...... 644W Ukraine...... 637W Natural Gas ...... 645W Wind Power ...... 645W JUSTICE...... 595W Written Questions ...... 645W Belmarsh Prison...... 595W Claims Management Services...... 597W Courts: Correspondence ...... 597W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Probation: Essex ...... 597W AFFAIRS...... 599W Public Records ...... 598W Apprentices...... 599W Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill...... 598W Bovine Tuberculosis: Northern Ireland ...... 599W Tobacco: Fraud...... 599W Marine Management Organisation ...... 600W Science: Curriculum...... 600W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 646W Tree Felling ...... 601W Administrative Scheme for the ″On the Runs″ Written Questions ...... 602W Independent Review...... 646W Children: Abuse ...... 646W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 633W Domestic Visits ...... 647W Islamic State...... 633W Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission...... 647W Pay...... 634W Parades: Belfast...... 647W Russia ...... 634W Royal Ulster Constabulary...... 647W Ukraine: Russia ...... 634W Written Questions ...... 635W PRIME MINISTER ...... 595W Northern Ireland...... 595W HEALTH...... 626W Northern Ireland Government...... 595W Abortion ...... 626W Saudi Arabia...... 595W Cancer: Drugs...... 626W Food: Crime...... 626W SCOTLAND...... 624W General Practitioners ...... 626W Energy...... 624W Health Services ...... 627W Pay...... 624W Medicine: Education...... 627W Written Questions ...... 625W Mesothelioma ...... 628W Motor Vehicles: Smoking...... 628W TRANSPORT ...... 639W NHS: Nurseries...... 628W Driving Offences ...... 639W NHS: Pay...... 629W M1 ...... 639W Nurses...... 629W Pedestrian Crossings ...... 639W Patients: Death...... 630W Road Signs and Markings...... 639W Pay...... 630W Pets: Disease Control ...... 633W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 625W Written Questions ...... 633W Pay...... 625W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 603W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 642W Employment Schemes ...... 603W Apprentices...... 642W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 603W Energy...... 642W Energy...... 603W EU Law...... 642W Growth and Enterprise Committee ...... 604W Written Questions ...... 642W Jobcentre Plus ...... 604W Personal Independence Payment...... 605W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 593W Television...... 605W Clerk of the House...... 593W Universal Credit...... 606W Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy ...... 593W Written Questions ...... 606W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 17 September 2014

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 10 September 2014

New Writ [Col. 889]

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 889] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Mobile Phones and Other Devices Capable of Connection to the Internet (Distribution of Sexually Explicit Images and Manufacturers’ Anti-Pornography Default Setting) [Col. 909] House of Commons Member’s Fund [Col. 909] Bills presented, and read the First time

Specialist Printing Equipment and Materials (Offences) [Col. 910] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Amess)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Ukraine, Middle East, North Africa and Security [Col. 913] General debate

Backbench Business Select Committee on Governance of the House [Col. 1014] Motion—(Jesse Norman)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 1048P]

Regeneration (South-east Wakefield) [Col. 1050] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Western Balkans [Col. 281WH] Discretionary Social Fund (Redcar and Cleveland) [Col. 303WH] Outdoor Sport and Recreation [Col. 311WH] Deaths in Police Custody [Col. 336WH] Improving School Leadership [Col. 344WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 37WS]

Petitions [Col. 13P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 593W] [see index inside back page]