Founded:Podcast - Saru Jayaraman | One Fair Wage

[00:00:00] Saru Jayaraman: [00:00:00] Tips are inherently biased. And so, the best way to reduce the bias is to actually guarantee these workers all a full minimum wage that they can count on.

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[00:00:14] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:00:14] Hey, this is Rana Abdelhamid with Women Techmakers and Google for Startups: Founded, chatting with women tech founders from across the globe. And today, for season three, we're sitting with Saru Jayaraman:, who is the founder and president of One Fair Wage, a national coalition that is also using technology to organize and end all sub-minimum wages in the United States.

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[00:00:40] Thank you for joining us, Saru. I'm super excited to chat with you today and hear more about your work with One Fair Wage, and hear more about your use of technology to create more equity for tipped workers across United States. Do you mind telling some of our listeners a little bit of yourself, and some of the work that you're doing today?

[00:00:59] Saru Jayaraman: [00:00:59] Sure, yeah. So, my name is Saru. I am a professor of UC Berkeley at the Goldman School of Public Policy. I have been leading for the last 20 years various organizations fighting to raise wages and working conditions in the restaurant industry and the service sector, more broadly. And the restaurant industry has been part of the pandemic, the nation's second largest, an absolute fastest growing sector of the U.S. economy, 13.6 million workers, but it's also been the absolute lowest paying employer in the United States and that's largely due to a trade lobby called the National Restaurant Association. We call it the other NRA. It represents the chains, the IHOP, the Applebee's. And it's been around-- it turns out 150 years since Emancipation of Slavery when it first amended the right to hire newly freed slaves and not pay them anything and have them live entirely on tips. These were mostly black women at the time, and this was a mutation of the original concept of tipping.

[00:02:00] Tipping was supposed to be, since feudal times, in Europe, tipping was an extra or bonus on top of a wage, but because of America's unique and very racialized caste system, in the United States, we mutated the notion of tipping from being an extra or bonus on top of the wage to being the wage itself. And so black women were told, you don't get away from your boss, you work for tips. And we went from a zero-dollar-waged at Emancipation, all the way up to $2.13 an hour, which is the current federal minimum wage for tipped workers today. This is the largest work force of women in the United States. 70% of these workers are women, and a disproportion of women of color. They struggle with the highest rates of sexual harassment and economic instability of any work force in the United States.

[00:02:48] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:02:48] Mmhm.

[00:02:49] Saru Jayarama n [00:02:49] And they have very different experiences in the 43 states that persist with the sub-minimum wage, versus the seven states that got rid of this system many decades ago. So , , , , , and , all have had a full minimum wage with tips on top for decades. And if you listen to the other NRA, you would think, "Oh, those restaurants-- it must have decimated their restaurant industry." And in fact those seven states, for those of us that live in California, we know we have the largest and fastest growing restaurant industry in the country, and it's blooming and it's even doing really well.

[00:03:27] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:03:27] So the minimum wage in California is the regular minimum wage?

[00:03:31] Saru Jayaraman: [00:03:31] For everybody, it's $15 an hour, going up to $15, and that includes all restaurant workers who get paid a full minimum wage with tips on top, and we have here in California one half the rate of sexual harassment, as the states that have a wage of $2.13. that's because women, waitresses in California, they can reject the harassment from customers because they can count on a wage from their boss, like every other worker in every other industry; whereas, women waitresses, just 2 states over, in New Mexico, where the wages literally $2.13 an hour, they have to tolerate all kinds of inappropriate customer behavior to get those tips to feed their families because a $2-wage is negligible.

[00:04:16] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:04:16] Of course.

[00:04:17] Saru Jayaraman: [00:04:17] But that was all before the pandemic. With the pandemic, it's been just a devastating situation. About ten million of these workers lost their jobs, 60% couldn't get unemployment insurance because they were told their wages were too low to qualify for benefits.

[00:04:33] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:04:33] Oh, wow!

[00:04:34] Saru Jayaraman: [00:04:34] And then now, they're being asked to go back to work and risk their lives for a two-dollar wage when tips are down 50-75%. And even worse, they're being asked to enforce social distancing and mask rules with the very same customers from whom they have to get tips to survive. And so, it's a public health disaster. These workers are not going to have any incentive to try to enforce these rules, knowing they have to get tips from those same customers.

[00:05:03] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:05:03] Right.

[00:05:04] Saru Jayaraman: [00:05:04] I don't know if you've seen any of the news reports, but these servers are getting harassed like crazy by belligerent customers around the country. And so, asking these folks to "please sit apart, please wear masks..."

[00:05:18] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:05:18] Wear mask, yeah.

[00:05:19] Saru Jayaraman: [00:05:19] It means you don't get as much tips. In fact, we had a member, a woman who told us she got left a note saying, "I would have left you a bigger tip if you had taken off your mask, you'd be a lot cuter."

[00:05:31] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:05:31] Oh, wow.

[00:05:32] Saru Jayaraman: [00:05:32] And so, it's basically, these women are being asked to, basically risk death in order to entertain these male customers, which is, honestly, unfortunately been the dynamic in the industry for too long, but the pandemic just revealed what was already wrong with system and exacerbated it.

[00:05:52] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:05:52] And Sara, what I find so fascinating about kind of the history that you shared is especially in this critical moment in the United States where there is a racial justice movement that is ongoing, that is reckoning with the reality of the court system in the United States, that this is still rooted in a history of slavery.

[00:06:13] Saru Jayaraman: [00:06:13] That's right.

[00:06:14] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:06:14] And you mentioned also, that the majority of the tipped workers are women of color, brown and black women.

[00:06:19] Saru Jayaraman: [00:06:19] There's a disproportion of women of color and we just released a report two month ago, sho wing that women of color and black women particular, because of the sub- minimum wage they make anywhere from $5-8 less per hour than white men as tipped workers. And for two reasons, women of color are segregated into more casual restaurants, they're not in fine dining restaurants. That's where they can get work, and those restaurants have a lot less money in tips. And even when they're in fine dining, there's now irrefutable evidence that there's customer bias in tipping. So white men get tipped a lot more even when the women of color are better servers.

[00:06:57] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:06:57] Wow!

[00:06:58] Saru Jayaraman: [00:06:58] All of that results in a huge wage gap, which is why we need to pay these workers a wage so they're not entirely reliant on tips which are inherently biased. Tips are inherently biased. And so, the best way to reduce the bias is to actually guarantee these workers all a full minimum wage that they can count on.

[00:07:19] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:07:19] That's really, really, really important, and so for a long time, you've been working directly with workers, you've been working with students as an educator, and I'm curious to know when tech came into the picture. Why you decided that building an app would be an important thing to do to create equity in this field?

[00:07:40] Saru Jayaraman: [00:07:40] Yeah, so for a long time, people kept asking us, "What can I do?" "What can I do?" "How can I, as a consumer, have some role or voice, how can I support these workers and change?" Because we've been fighting for policy change, we did get this Bill passed in Congress, in the US House of Representatives to eliminate the sub-minimum wage for tipped workers.

[00:08:04] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:08:04] Congrats!

[00:08:05] Saru Jayaraman: [00:08:05] But we have a long way to go to get that passed in the Senate, and, of course, to get this signed by the president. So, to get there, we need consumers to support restaurants that are willing to move in this direction, towards a full minimum wage and put pressure on others who aren't yet doing that.

[00:08:23] And so we created an app about a decade ago-- gosh, is it that long? Maybe a little less-- to provide consumers with information about which restaurants have joined forces with us and are taking what we call the High road to Profitability, and which ones aren't. There's an app called the Diner's Guide, ROC National Diners' Guide. With the pandemic, it needs to be updated, and that's what we're working on right now, it's an upgrade but--

[00:08:50] That app we've been working on to allow consumers to, not just support restaurants that are doing the right thing, but use it as a way to communicate with their favorite restaurant owners that, you know, I want to keep eating here but I want to see you move to a livable wage. Or, I want to see you join forces with the folks that are pushing for a livable wage. I want to see you, as a restaurant owner, be a part of the association, not the NRA, not the National Restaurant Association, but what we call "RAISE," Restaurants Advancing Industry Standards in Employment. The High Road Restaurant Association, the association of restaurants taking the High Road to Profitability.

[00:09:31] So we started with that app, we're upgrading it now. Now, there's been a new need for tech and for apps because with the pandemic and ten million workers losing their jobs, and so many struggling to survive, we had to start an emergency fund for these workers and ended up raising, like 22 million dollars in relief funds, and 220 thousand workers applied, and we're not able to get cash out to all these workers, but we are continuing to fundraise, and we are providing these workers with other services, like legal services, and financial counseling, and telehealth programs.

[00:10:11] And so now we're working on a companion app to the diner's guide that would allow workers to kind of easily apply for funding or access legal services, basically enter our portal through the easy means of an app. But our idea is that, ultimately, you have a platform for all three stakeholders. For consumers, they can see which restaurants to support and which restaurants to push. For employers they could see the resources we have. For employers, we have a cash grant program for employers right now and also others training and programs for employers. And then, for workers, they could apply for that relief fund and other programs.

[00:10:53] Our idea is that if you have a platform with all three stakeholders, then the stakeholders can start interacting with each other. Workers can start to find high road employers that they want to work for; employers can find workers to hire; and consumers could see which employers are doing the right thing through the platform. So, ultimately, we want a platform where all three stakeholders could really interact.

[00:11:15] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:11:15] That's really, really powerful because it's almost like it's a market place...

[00:11:19] Saru Jayaraman: [00:11:19] That's right, yeah.

[00:11:20] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:11:20] ...for a values-based economy.

[00:11:23] Saru Jayaraman: [00:11:23] Exactly, exactly, because there's plenty of other job matching sites for employers and workers, but you're right, they're none that are doing it based on employers willing to move to what we call the High Road to Profitability. And workers are really looking for employers doing the right thing. And consumers are really supporting employers doing the right thing.

[00:11:44] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:11:44] So for you, what has the process been like building this app and bringing together technologists to make this happen?

[00:11:52] Saru Jayaraman: [00:11:52] It's been both fun and exciting. It has so much potential.

[00:11:52] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:11:52] Yeah.

[00:11:57] Saru Jayaraman: [00:11:57] On the other hand, until now, it's been hard, because I think we spend so much of our time as organizers, focus on organizing and organizing the workers and moving the policy. And really, you know, obviously, people who work on apps that's all they do. And so trying to also develop an app and build up the capacity to manage it, which is really the key, and market it, and all of those things. I think we're getting there, we haven't yet gotten there. And so, it's moved a little slower than I would like, because we just haven't had the capacity to really drive it. But now, I think there's a lot of excitement because of the emergency fund and everything we've done during the pandemic. So looks like we may be getting some funding to support the development and maintenance of this app, and that will make all the difference in the world.

[00:12:46] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:12:46] Thanks, thanks for sharing that, Saru. And you mentioned the pandemic several times, obviously because we're in the midst of it. And we're seeing, also, for example, I'm based in New York, I'm based in Queens, and there's a lot of small restaurants, small businesses that are shutting down. There's conversation around the impact on the restaurant industry over the long term. What are the conversations like among workers, in light of the shutdown of many of the small restaurants?

[00:13:14] Saru Jayaraman: [00:13:14] I mean, workers are definitely concerned about it and having jobs to g o back to, but to be honest with you, really, these workers are on the brink of homelessness, or frankly, we do know many who are already homeless. They are not able to put food on the table, a lot have been telling us they're planning on stealing food for their children. Some are telling us "I don't have money for electricity bills; I don't know what I'm going to do for heating bills this winter." And then on top of all of that, there's a terror, because the CDC two weeks ago reported that the only factor they found to have the most effect, or to be the only thing that stood out as something in common among COVID patients is that they ate in a restaurant. They said adults are twice as likely to catch the virus eating in a restaurant. And so, if that's true for eating in a restaurant, imagine working in a restaurant all day long.

[00:14:13] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:14:13] Yeah.

[00:14:13] Saru Jayaraman: [00:14:13] It's terrifying. And so the choice is starve, not able to feed your children, can't pay the heating bills, or go to work, and risk not only your own life, but everybody in your household's life. It's a terrifying choice. It's a kind of a really deadly choice both ways. I just don't think people understand the severity of the crisis, or frankly, the scale of the crisis, because you're talking about ten million workers.

[00:14:44] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:14:44] Yeah.

[00:14:46] Saru Jayaraman: [00:14:46] You're not talking about a tiny work force. So, yes, it's sad for businesses to close. Those business owners lose their life's dreams or maybe their life savings. We lose, as consumers, our favorite restaurants. But I think it's so important for your listeners understand, it's one thing to lose your business, it's another thing to lose your home and not be able to feed your kids, and not be able to keep the heat this winter. It's a magnitude of severity and crisis that I just don't think people understand. And so what frustrates me is that a lot of elected officials are very focused on saving restaurants, which I'm glad they are. You know, we definitely want independent restaurants, in particular, to survive, but, gosh, if we don't do something for these workers, what we're talking about is so much worse than the Great Depression. People are literally going to die. If we don't have heat for so many millions or we have mass homelessness this winter, you are going to see kind of a level of crisis I don't think people understand.

[00:15:49] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:15:49] So what are some of the things that you are doing with One Fair Wage and some other folks that you're working with, maybe through this app beyond that to really build?

[00:16:00] Saru Jayaraman: [00:16:00] Well, that's why the a pp is exciting to us. It's not just about workers applying for services or consumers finding out which restaurants are doing it right and which ones are doing wrong. Frankly, the real purpose of bringing people together in an app is to collectively add their voices to mobilize for change. We need one fair wage, a full minimum wage now more than ever. If workers are choosing between destitution and going back to work, and they're risking their lives when they go back to work, they need to be paid a full livable minimum wage when I go back to work. Otherwise, people are feeling like it's not worth it for me to expose myself for a two-or-three-dollar wage, I need a full livable minimum wage to go back to work.

[00:16:44] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:16:44] Right.

[00:16:45] Saru Jayaraman: [00:16:45] Really, we hope consumers will enter the app and use it to figure out how to get their favorite restaurants engaged, but then also engage with us to call on Governor Cuomo in New York or the State Legislature in Massachusetts or Illinois to push for one fair wage. And the same is true for workers there. They make it into the app to apply for services, but truly the point for us is to get them engaged in the organizing, in the mobilizing, in the fight for change to get them to call their legislators and speak up, and share their stories, so that we really can win ultimately what we need, which is, yes, unemployment insurance for sure. But beyond that, the real long term solution is that workers are paid a livable wage that allows them to live in dignity and values them as the professionals that they are.

[00:17:35] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:17:35] So when you're thinking about some of the next steps that you're engaging with to kind of bring this up to life, what's next for you on this tech journey?

[00:17:45] Saru Jayaraman: [00:17:45] We're hoping to get some funding that would allow us to hire some people and develop especially the worker portal and upgrade the consumer portal. But even if we didn't get that funding, I think we're fully ready right now. We're working on upgrading and updating the consumer portal and developing the worker portal. So I think one way or another, we'll be moving forward, but we're hoping to get some funding and, in the meantime, we're figuring out right now exactly kind of how to make it the most user-friendly possible.

[00:18:18] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:18:18] Mm-hmm, I'm curious to know if folks are listening, right, and they're really wanting to help, what are some of the things that they can do to support? You mentioned some things, like reaching out to state legislators and governors, but what are some other ways?

[00:18:33] Saru Jayaraman: [00:18:33] Yeah, I appreciate that. So, first is you can right now get the most updated list of restaurants that are doing the right thing during the pandemic at highroadkitchens.com. That website is a list of a lot of restaurants that have been participating in our programs and are paying livable wages and providing benefits and these kinds of things. So support those restaurants, but more importantly, show your favorite restaurant owner or manager that platform. Show them that website on your phone and say, "I'd love to see you to be a part of this. As a consumer, this is important to me."

[00:19:09] So, communicating. Number one, I would ask, is communicate with your favorite restaurant owner to join the forces for good, to join the High Road Association. Two, we'd love people to donate to the emergency fund because workers are in dire need right now, and you can do that by going to ofwemergencyfund.org. And on that website, you can either donate or you could volunteer. And three is to, like you said, contact our legislators wherever they are and tell them we need one fair wage, and you can do that at fightdontstarve.com. It's where everybody's going to sign the petition to call on your governor or your state legislature to pass one fair wage, a full minimum wage with tips on top.

[00:19:55] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:19:55] Hmm, thank you, thanks for that. The reason why we started this podcast is because we know that there are many women who might be interested in becoming tech entrepreneur who might feel hesitant. And we know that there's a huge discrepancy or there's huge inequality among the numbers of women versus men entrepreneurs. And we're curious to know if you have any general advice for women who might be interested in jumping into this world?

[00:20:26] Saru Jayaraman: [00:20:26] Well, I'm hoping that the new era of women, and particularly women of color taking leadership in our country, having a Vice president woman of color for the first time at a major party, having so many amazing women in Congress. You know, women increasingly taking leadership in the restaurant industry and in every sector. I'm hoping that that inspires a whole new generation of young women and girls. I have two daughters, and I hope it inspires them to feel like there's no limit on what they can do. There's no barrier to them really being in any field, including field that have traditionally been seen as as male dominated field. Those are precisely the fields we need to be in, and tech being one.

[00:21:15] For me, I feel like, the advice I would have is, it's been a hard road for me. I've had to deal with a lot of people who thought I came a cross as angry. You know, as a woman of color, or tough, or rough. Tough-to-work-with is a favorite phrase that they say of women who are strong leaders, but through all of that, what keeps me going is my daughters and knowing that change needs to happen, and knowing that, ultimately, I'm working for a much greater cause.

[00:21:48] I guess I would say, I would encourage women in tech to figure out what is that much bigger cause that your heart is really focused on and that you're thinking about, and see if there's a way to apply your skills towards that much bigger cause, because when times get rough, for me, at least, that's what keeps me going. There is a way for women to not only become tech leaders, but frankly, just change the way tech works, and change who tech serves and change what tech could be. I would want women to not just replace men in the existing tech industry but frankly, just disrupt tech entirely. Tech seems so disruptive, but it's so frankly reflective of existing inequities. And so, I would want to see women not just become leaders in a very unequal and inaccessible world, but rather become leaders in a whole new vision for tech.

[00:22:47] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:22:47] That's really powerful, thanks. And on that, it's so clear that you're really deeply rooted in purpose and a vision for what can be an alternative world. In five years, ten years from now, Saru, you have a magic wand, and all your organizing is effective, this app is just killing it, what does the world look like because of the work that you're doing, because of the app that you've built?

[00:23:13] Saru Jayaraman: [00:23:13] I mean, I think... actually, I've never felt more that it is so doable, so possible, because the pandemic revealed inequities and even ended up bringing a lot of restaurant own ers who didn't agree with us to our side, so I think it's totally possible in the next even five years to achieve a full minimum wage, livable wage for all restaurant workers nationwide, for employers to join forces with us in that new vision and dream, frankly for these workers, for women, for people of color, for immigrants to be viewed and seen, and treated and paid as the skilled professionals that they are. That we live in a world in which we are valued as women, my daughters are valued, and they enjoy their lives because they feel valued and respected.

[00:24:07] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:24:07] I love that, thank you so much, Saru.

[00:24:10] Saru Jayaraman: [00:24:10] Thank you!

[00:24:11] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:24:11] And I hope that your dream and your vision for the world does come true, and I'm so grateful that there are folks like you who are actually working towards that and doing the work to make that happen for all of us, so thank you.

[00:24:23] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:24:23] Thank you, Rana.

[00:24:24] Rana Abdelhamid: [00:24:24] Saru's commitment to justice and her vision as a tech founder are so inspiring, and I can't wait for more of the impact that she's going to continue to have as a tech entrepreneur. I hope you all enjoyed listening to her as much as I did. You can check out more Founded stories on the Google for Startups' website or wherever you listen to your podcast. You can check out Season 1, Season 2, and now Season 3. And if you love us, keep listening to us, share us and subscribe to us and stay tuned for more. You can also learn more about Women Techmakers, Google's program providing economic opportunities for women through tech at womentechmakers.com

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