Friday Volume 632 1 December 2017 No. 61 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Friday 1 December 2017 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2017 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 585 1 DECEMBER 2017 586 Glindon, Mary Merriman, Huw House of Commons Goodman, Helen Morden, Jessica Grady, Patrick Morris, Grahame Green, Kate Morton, Wendy Friday 1 December 2017 Greenwood, Lilian Murray, Ian Griffith, Nia Norris, Alex The House met at half-past Nine o’clock Grogan, John Onn, Melanie Gwynne, Andrew Peacock, Stephanie Gyimah, Mr Sam Pennycook, Matthew PRAYERS Haigh, Louise Perry, Claire The Chairman of Ways and Means took the Chair as Hall, Luke Philp, Chris Deputy Speaker (Standing Order No. 3). Hamilton, Fabian Pidcock, Laura Hancock, rh Matt Pincher, Christopher Graham P. Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I beg to move, Hardy, Emma Platt, Jo That the House sit in private. Harper, rh Mr Mark Pollard, Luke Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163). Harris, Carolyn Prentis, Victoria Harris, Rebecca Rashid, Faisal The House divided: Ayes 0, Noes 169. Healey, rh John Rayner, Angela Division No. 51] [9.34 am Heaton-Harris, Chris Reeves, Ellie Hendrick, Mr Mark Rimmer, Ms Marie AYES Hill, Mike Shah, Naz Hillier, Meg Skidmore, Chris Tellers for the Ayes: Hollinrake, Kevin Smeeth, Ruth Lucy Allan and Hollobone, Mr Philip Smith, Cat Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg Howarth, rh Mr George Smith, Chloe Huq, Dr Rupa Smith, Eleanor Hurd, Mr Nick Smith, Laura NOES Hussain, Imran Smyth, Karin Jarvis, Dan Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Davies, Mims Snell, Gareth Jenkin, Mr Bernard Amesbury, Mike De Cordova, Marsha Spellar, rh John Jones, Darren Andrew, Stuart De Piero, Gloria Stewart, Bob Jones, Gerald Argar, Edward Debbonaire, Thangam Stewart, Rory Jones, Mr Marcus Bailey, Mr Adrian Dent Coad, Emma Streeting, Wes Baldwin, Harriett Dinenage, Caroline Jones, Susan Elan Sunak, Rishi Barclay, Stephen Donelan, Michelle Kane, Mike Sweeney, Mr Paul Barron, rh Sir Kevin Dowd, Peter Khan, Afzal Thomas-Symonds, Nick Benn, rh Hilary Dowden, Oliver Killen, Gerard Thornberry, rh Emily Blackman, Kirsty Doyle-Price, Jackie Kinnock, Stephen Blomfield, Paul Drew, Dr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Timms, rh Stephen Bone, Mr Peter Dromey, Jack Kyle, Peter Trevelyan, Mrs Anne-Marie Brennan, Kevin Eagle, Maria Laird, Lesley Twigg, Stephen Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Efford, Clive Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Twist, Liz Bryant, Chris Ellman, Mrs Louise Lewis, rh Brandon Umunna, Chuka Buck, Ms Karen Elmore, Chris Linden, David Walker, Thelma Burgon, Richard Evans, Chris Long Bailey, Rebecca Western, Matt Butler, Dawn Farrelly, Paul Madders, Justin Whitfield, Martin Cadbury, Ruth Fernandes, Suella Mahmood, Mr Khalid Williamson, Chris Cartlidge, James Fletcher, Colleen Mann, John Wilson, Phil Charalambous, Bambos Flint, rh Caroline Marsden, Gordon Wragg, Mr William Maskell, Rachael Cherry, Joanna Flynn, Paul Wright, rh Jeremy McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Coaker, Vernon Foster, Kevin Yasin, Mohammad McGovern, Alison Cooper, Julie Fovargue, Yvonne Zeichner, Daniel Cooper, Rosie Foxcroft, Vicky McInnes, Liz Coyle, Neil Frazer, Lucy McKinnell, Catherine Tellers for the Noes: Cryer, John Freer, Mike McMahon, Jim Nick Smith and Cummins, Judith Furniss, Gill Mearns, Ian Mr Alan Campbell Cunningham, Alex Gaffney, Hugh Cunningham, Mr Jim Gapes, Mike Question accordingly negatived. David, Wayne Gibb, rh Nick 587 1 DECEMBER 2017 Parliamentary Constituencies 588 (Amendment) Bill Parliamentary Constituencies Practically the only argument that the Government (Amendment) Bill used in favour of reducing the number of MPs was that it would save money—apparently about £13 million. Second Reading That falls apart when we consider that the previous two Prime Ministers appointed 260 life peers between them, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): For the at a cost of £34 million a year. Why increase the size of benefit of the House, let me say that a point of order the unelected House of Lords if we are really trying to was raised yesterday regarding the publication of the cut the cost of politics? Parliamentary Constituencies (Amendment) Bill, and I There are other ways to save money. Not embarking think it might be helpful to make a short statement on on five-yearly boundary reviews, which each cost about the matter. £10 million, would be a start. Gradually reducing the The Bill was initially made available in hard copy and number of MPs could be another, but a drastic and online on Wednesday 29 November.An error was identified sudden reduction in the number of MPs causes much on Thursday morning and was brought to the attention more disruption, and costs more than is necessary. of the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Afzal Clearly cost was not the real motivation; the change was Khan), who immediately informed the Public Bill Office. an attempt to gain a political advantage. The error identified was not in any way the fault of the Secondly, we cannot reduce the number of MPs hon. Gentleman; it was an error made during the manual without reducing the size of the Executive. With the inputting of the text into the Bill publishing software. same proportion of MPs as we have now, 48% of The Public Bill Office is taking steps to improve this Conservative Members would be on the payroll. The process to ensure that such a mistake is not repeated job of Back Benchers in all parties is to scrutinise with future Bills. legislation and hold the Government to account. Reducing The corrected version of the Bill was available online the number of MPs would tip the balance of power within 30 minutes of the error being reported, and hard towards the Executive. The charge that politicians are copies were made available in the Vote Office within one unaccountable would only become stronger and louder. hour, 10 minutes and five seconds. I am satisfied that What we would lose in independent-minded dissenters there was no infringement of the notice requirements cannot be justified by modest savings. for the Bill and, just as importantly, that the error does not affect the debate that will take place on it, so I will Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): I was the not entertain any further points of order on this subject. Minister who tried to bring in a Bill to ensure that the House of Lords was elected, and of course it was 9.46 am because the Labour party would not support the programme motion that we were not able to make any Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I beg to progress. On the hon. Gentleman’s point about cost, it move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. is true that more Members have been appointed to the Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for providing that House of Lords but, since 2010, the cost of running the clarification. other place has actually fallen each year— I am new to Parliament, but I have been in politics for decades, and in that time, I have seen trust in our Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The political system erode. Today, only 20% of the UK right hon. Gentleman is hoping to catch my eye early in trusts politicians at least to some degree. The public the debate, so I suggest that he saves his speech. As he already see politicians as remote, self-interested and should know, we need short interventions—we have a unaccountable, and the current boundary changes long day. would make that worse. The Bill would preserve the MP-constituency link, the power to scrutinise the Executive Afzal Khan: I understand what the right hon. Gentleman and the strength of our communities. It would harness is saying, but the bottom line is that if we are trying to engagement in recent elections to reverse, rather than reduce cost, why are the Government putting more and reinforce, the trend towards disillusionment. more unelected people into the House of Lords, and This is a debate about our democracy. I stand to gain appointing more and more special advisers? It does not no advantage from the change I am proposing because, make sense. I would prefer to have more elected people. under the current review, my constituency would stay exactly the same. I am here to speak for the good of Dr David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): Does my hon. Parliament, not my own. I will briefly set out the five Friend accept what the Political and Constitutional key arguments for my Bill, as I am keen to allow time Reform Committee said in 2015: if the Government of for other contributions. the day got their way—this Government are trying First, the public see politicians as remote. The boundary again—it would break all locational links and completely changes would take MPs even further away from their undermine the representational basis of this House? constituents. I am fortunate in that I can get from one That would be a very sad day. end of Manchester, Gorton to the other in half an hour, but many colleagues come from rural constituencies Afzal Khan: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. that are already a challenge to represent. As we reduce Brexit legislation is passing through Parliament and the number of MPs, these constituencies will get bigger. we are undergoing one of the most significant constitutional Let us take the example of North Lancashire, which changes in decades. We have already seen from our would stretch from the edge of the Lake district to the debates on Henry VIII provisions that Ministers will outskirts of Blackpool and Preston, covering more always attempt to extend their powers. At this point, we than half the county.