Vol. 183 Tuesday, No. 16 16 May 2006

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Tuesday, 16 May 2006.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1205 Deaths of Former Members: Expressions of Sympathy ……………………1206 Order of Business …………………………………1211 Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006: Report and Final Stages … … … 1223 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: Second Stage (resumed)…………………1244 Adjournment Matters: Third Level Places ………………………………1266 Hospital Services ………………………………1267 Ambulance Service ………………………………1270 1205 1206

SEANAD E´ IREANN community college, Lanesboro, County Longford. ———— I regard the matters raised by the Senators as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment. I De´ Ma´irt, 16 Bealtaine 2006. have selected those raised by Senators Tuffy, Tuesday, 16 May 2006. Browne and Moylan and they will be taken at the conclusion of business. Senators McHugh and ———— Bannon may give notice on another day of the Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar matters they wish to raise. 2.30 p.m. Deaths of Former Members: Expressions of ———— Sympathy. Ms O’Rourke: We are saddened today that the Paidir. representatives of each party must rise to voice Prayer. sympathy on the deaths of two former Members of this House, John Mannion and Pat Codd. The ———— former Senator, John Mannion of Fine Gael, served on the agricultural panel in Seanad Business of Seanad. E´ ireann from 1969 to 1977. He was a member of An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Galway County Council for a long period, and Senator Tuffy that, on the motion for the of the former Western Health Board and other Adjournment of the House today, she proposes bodies. He was then elected to Da´il E´ ireann and to raise the following matter: subsequently to Seanad E´ ireann, and was well- liked. People in the west of Ireland talked about The need for the Minister for Education and his family. He believed strongly in representing Science to provide information (details the people and was a keen member of the supplied) on full-time third level places; and if county council. she will make a statement on the urgent need His father, John Mannion senior, had been a to find ways to ensure that such third level Deputy for Galway West between 1951 and 1954. places are filled in the future. He too was on the agricultural panel. His son fol- I have also received notice from Senator Browne lowed in his father’s tradition. of the following matter: Pat Codd, from Wexford, was a Member of this The need for the Ta´naiste and Minister for House from 1975 to 1977, having come in on a Health and Children to provide an update on Seanad by-election. He was a great champion of the improvement in services for people with the Wexford people having been a diligent and cystic fibrosis in the past 12 months and, in painstaking member of Wexford County Council. particular, the need to appoint a cystic fibrosis I am reading from Deputy Kenny’s press release consultant in Waterford Regional Hospital. because I did not know either gentleman so I must rely on this source. He believed in the I have also received notice from Senator Moylan power of politics to improve people’s lives. We of the following matter: all subscribe to that tenet because that is why we The need for the Ta´naiste and Minister for are in politics. He was well-known and everybody Health and Children to intervene with the mid- spoke well of him which is highly unusual in pol- lands-east Health Service Executive to provide itical life. an ambulance base and service from and into On behalf of the Fianna Fa´il Party, and its Edenderry, County Offaly. members, I express sympathy with the families of the late John Mannion of Clifden and the late Pat I have also received notice from Senator McHugh Codd of Wexford. of the following matter: The need for the Ta´naiste and Minister for Mr. B. Hayes: On behalf of my colleagues in Health and Children to indicate the timeframe this House, and on behalf of the Fine Gael for the permanent appointment to Letterkenny parliamentary party, I join the Leader’s General Hospital of a consultant breast sur- expression of sympathy for the families of former geon, the roll-out of breast screening to all Senators John M. Mannion and Pat Codd. John parts of the country and the indicative time- Mannion and his family are known throughout frame for the approved 70 extra beds at Letter- the country as coming from a distinct political tra- kenny General Hospital. dition in Galway-West. The Mannions have been in politics since the 1940s. John Mannion Senior I have also received notice from Senator Bannon was a distinguished Member of both Houses of the following matter: throughout the 1950s and 1960s. The need for the Minister for Education and In recent years my party colleagues were sad Science to provide an update on her commit- to hear that John M. was crippled with arthritis. ment to the refurbishment work at Lanesboro He has died young, at only 62 years of age. Our 1207 Deaths of Former Members: 16 May 2006. Expressions of Sympathy 1208

[Mr. B. Hayes.] Senator Pat Codd but we express our condol- hearts and sympathy go out to his wife, Doris, ences to the families of both. and their two children. They live in a beautiful location in Clifden from where politically it is dif- Mr. Ryan: Unfortunately I did not personally ficult to be elected in west Galway. John was a know either Senator Mannion or Senator Codd. great champion of Connemara and of Galway. As Occasions such as this provide the opportunity to the Leader of the House said, he had a dis- pay tribute to the principle of service as much as tinguished record of service on Galway County to individuals. It is worth repeating that their Council for many years. He was a Member of this service was worthwhile even though not all of us House from 1969 to 1973 and as a result of elec- would have known about it. I express my condol- tions was a Member of the Da´il from 1977 to ences to their families for their loss. It is certain 1981. that both of these men attempted to serve the I am reliably informed that he was a very country and their own communities and used all quick-witted and colourful character. He enjoyed the abilities they possessed both within and with- the company of other politicians and gave a life- out these Houses to do that service. The Labour long commitment to the people of Connemara Party wishes to be associated with the expressions and to the people of Clifden in particular. He was of regret and condolence. We also want to pay a businessman with many business interests who tribute to the service they gave and to the fact employed a large number of people in Clifden. We remember the late John M. Mannion today. that they choose to do it. Like all people who We also remember former Senator Pat Codd. put their names forward in an election, they were He was a politician who hailed from Enniscorthy, willing to accept the possibility of losing as well as County Wexford. I did not know him personally winning. Therefore, they were among the genuine but I have heard his memory being eulogised by risk takers in our society who take the risk not many colleagues in my party in recent months. for their own sake but for the sake of what they Curiously, he won a by-election — a by-election believe they can do for their communities. is a very strange animal in this House because Ar dheis De´ go raibh a anam. the result is known before the ballot takes place, assuming the Government of the day has a Mr. Dardis: On behalf of the Progressive majority in the House. He was selected in April Democrats, I join the other groups in extending 1975 to win a casual vacancy in this House. It says our sympathy to the family, friends and party col- a lot about the former Senator that the then leagues of the late Senators John M. Mannion Taoiseach, Liam Cosgrave, asked him to contest and Pat Codd. that by-election. He was a Member of this House Like Senator O’Toole, I would have met the from April 1975 until 1977. He was a councillor late Senator Mannion with Maurice Manning and former chairman of Wexford County when he was Leader of the House. Both Senators Council. Mannion and Codd came from distinguished He had a deep interest in and a passion for families in their respective parts of the country, agriculture and for rural affairs. He spoke in the families whose names would be well known House on many occasions on those matters. Col- within politics and well beyond that realm. Their leagues have informed me that in recent years he commitment to agriculture was also referred to, virtually dedicated his life to charity work and to of which I am aware from the past. Both of them Self-Help Ireland and raised large sums of money served their areas and the State well. They for that organisation and for other charities in the deserve to be remembered here today with affec- south east. I offer our deepest sympathy to his tion and regret. wife, Evelyn, to his sons, Mark and John and his daughters, Mary, Sarah and Joan. We remember Mr. U. Burke: I would like to be associated his commitment and the commitment of Senator with my colleagues’ expressions of sympathy to Mannion to this House when they served here in such a distinguished way for many years. the families of John M. Mannion and the late Pat Codd. Mr. O’Toole: The Independent Members wish I served on Galway County Council with John to be associated with the words of condolence M. Mannion for approximately 25 years. When I offered by the previous speakers. None of us was first elected to the council in 1974 I remem- served in this House with either of the two former ber well the bunch of heavies who were on it. Senators. I knew the former Senator Mannion When one remembers that people like Bobby quite well. He was on very friendly terms with Molloy, Mark Killalea, John Donnellan and the former Leader of the House, former Senator Deputy Michael D. Higgins served on the council Maurice Manning. I met him when he visited the with John M. Mannion, one recalls that one had House and in Clifden on a number of occasions. to stay quiet for a long period and serve one’s I am aware of his family tradition of commitment time. to the needs of the west of Ireland which he rep- resented at county council, Da´il and Seanad level. Mr. Dardis: The Deputy is making up for that I did not have the opportunity to meet former now. 1209 Deaths of Former Members: 16 May 2006. Expressions of Sympathy 1210

Mr. U. Burke: Everyone who remembers John All politicians can run up against their own Mannion as a member of Galway County Council organisation from time to time and Pat Codd had would say he was the type of person who would his difficulties with Fine Gael. He stood for a take one under his wing because he believed in selection convention in February 1982 and was consensus and the need to avoid conflict at all beaten by one or two votes by a 20 year old town costs. For that reason many members across par- councillor from Enniscorthy called Ivan Yates, ties would rely on his careful decisions and the who also went on to have a distinguished career way in which he would put forward proposals if a in politics. He was upset at the time but after- matter was causing conflict in the chamber. That wards became very actively involved in Fine Gael epitomises the character of the late John despite his disappointment. As Senator Brian Mannion. Hayes has said, he was the organiser of the Self John also served as a member of Western Help charity in the south-east region. He col- Health Board. He had many achievements on lected vast amounts of money and dedicated that board in bringing services to Clifden, the much of his latter years to that worthy cause, put- outer periphery of the health board area. At all ting in a tremendous effort in that regard. He was times he was fair given that in a county like a treasurer of the Wexford GAA County Board Galway there would have been serious conflict in years gone by and was very dedicated to that between east and west in so far as people from east Galway would have believed that Connem- organisation. ara was getting most and vice versa. John was the I was pleased to have been able to attend his second Fine Gael chairperson of Galway County requiem mass on Holy Thursday night in Mar- Council after the late Toddy Byrne who was the shalstown church, just outside Enniscorthy. I had first Fine Gael chairperson of the council. His the privilege of going to college with his grand- achievement in winning a seat for Fine Gael in son, as well as knowing Pat for a number of years the Da´il from his base in Clifden was a super and I wish to be associated with the expressions achievement. Were it not for the fact that he was of sympathy to his family. recognised as a person of great integrity I do not believe he would have achieved that. An Cathaoirleach: I also want to be associated I would like to be associated with the words with the tributes to the late former Members of of sympathy extended to his wife Doris and his this House, John M. Mannion and Pat Codd. I two children. knew both of them. When I entered the House in 1977, Senator Mannion had already been a An Cathaoirleach: Generally, only Senators Member for the two previous terms. On that from the counties of the deceased members are occasion, 1977, he was elected to the Da´il. We asked to express sympathy but as Senator John stayed in the same hotel and a friendship Paul Phelan was a close family friend of Senator developed between us. Since he left parliamen- Codd, he may do so. tary politics I had occasion to meet him nearly every year at Listowel races, where he stayed Mr. J. Phelan: I thank the Cathaoirleach and with his long-time friend, the former Deputy and am grateful for his indulgence. I did not know the Senator Gerard Lynch. I attended his funeral and late John M. Mannion but from colleagues I have was pleased to do so. I always found John Man- heard many stories and yarns about this activities nion to be a gentleman who never let politics and politics down the years. I want to extend sym- come between him and friendship. pathy to his family. I also knew Pat Codd after he had left the However, I knew Pat Codd very well for the Seanad. He was elected in 1975 in a by-election. past number of years. He was very involved in There were five Seanad by-elections the same politics even up to his sudden death and was day. Fine Gael won three and the Labour Party interested in all aspects of political life through- won two. Pat Codd, who stood on the agricultural out the country. panel, won the seat by 20 votes from another Fine He participated in all aspects of political life throughout the country. I met him for the last Gael candidate on that occasion, Joe Lennon, time a couple of months ago in the Oireachtas from Louth. Subsequently, when I was cam- Library. He was here on a visit with Deputy paigning for the Seanad and when Pat Codd had Kehoe from Wexford. We were very shocked by a vote—— Pat’s sudden death. He had a long and varied career in politics. As people have said, he was a Ms O’Rourke: Now we are coming to it. former member of Wexford County Council. He was chairman of the county council in his last An Cathaoirleach: Given the importance of year there, 1984-5. Pat Codd had the unique dis- preferences, I always gave him a call. I was always tinction of being a member of the county council delighted with the reception I got from him. I for Fine Gael with his son-in-law, Martin Dunbar, want to extend my deepest sympathies to the from the Labour Party. They represented two wives and families of both Senators. different electoral areas. Nonetheless, that is quite unusual in politics. Members rose. 1211 Order of 16 May 2006. Business 1212

Order of Business. I wish to put on the record that the unions clearly said yesterday they did not approve of it. Ms O’Rourke: The Order of Business is Nos. 1 They said it was unofficial and they told the driv- and 2. No. 1, Planning and Development ers to go back to work. I hope Senator Brian (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 — Report and Hayes corrects the impression he gave in this Final Stages, to be taken on the conclusion of the regard as it is completely wrong of him to state Order of Business and to conclude not later than that the unions are trying to take out their frus- 5 p.m.; and No. 2, Road Safety Authority Bill tration on the travelling public. The unions had 2004 — Second Stage (resumed), to be taken at decided to continue with the talks and the intro- 5.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 7 p.m., duction of the carriages. Two people withdrew with the contributions of Senators not to exceed their labour, as we all know they are constitution- ten minutes each and the Minister to be called ally entitled to do. No one approves of it, least of upon to reply not later than ten minutes before all their own unions who had spent weeks in talks the conclusion of Second Stage. There will be a in trying to resolve difficulties. sosfrom5p.m.to5.30p.m. The matter had gone to the Labour Court, Mr. B. Hayes: We accept today’s Order of which had given a ruling which some of the driv- Business. I wish to take this opportunity to put ers did not accept but the union did accept. Other on record my view, and I suspect the view of the issues were to be discussed, starting vast majority of the travelling public who have 3 o’clock from today, which management and had to witness it, on the wildcat industrial action the unions were content to discuss. over the past two days by certain elements who This is a failure of processes and a breach of allegedly want to support public transport. It is agreements but I stress it is due to individuals and unacceptable that the travelling public can be not to any union structures. It has not been sanc- dealt with like this. People arrived at train tioned by union representatives participating in stations yesterday unaware of this action. Will the talks in Government Buildings who will do all in management of Iarnro´ dE´ ireann indicate why their power to correct this. There is no justifi- people were not informed? Given the fact that it cation for it. knew this situation was at hand and that it was Senator Brian Hayes is correct that the dispute forewarned of it, why was no public information should not have come on us like a ton of bricks given to people who wanted to use the rail yesterday morning. Apparently, management was service yesterday? aware of a problem last Friday afternoon and it That is unacceptable from the management of offered the drivers additional training over the Iarnro´d E´ ireann but it is equally unacceptable for weekend but it should have at least indicated the the unions involved to take out their difficulties problem to the public. I regret that did not hap- in terms of training for these new trains on the pen but I regret the dispute more than anything travelling public. This is a reminder of an indus- following five years of peace in the most difficult trial age we hoped had long since gone. There workplace for industrial relations. Five years of are implications in this for the current partnership industrial peace in CIE did not come about easily, talks. This is a clear breach of the existing pay as it required significant investment by the com- agreement and the associated commitments pany in its human resources structures, which within that agreement. were appalling prior to that. The management I ask the Government to provide time in the representatives involved in human resources and House, possibly today or tomorrow, so that the union leadership in this area have done their everyone can put their views on this issue on the best to get the company working. I cannot record. We have made a major investment in rail remember another five years of industrial peace transport in recent years. The State is now sub- in the company and we should try to get back to sidising the service to a significant degree in order that situation. to bring it up from the Third World service we No. 9 on the Order Paper is a Bill relating to had for many years. We now find that the main the naming of places in the Gaeltacht. The House actors want to put all of that to one side. It is not will be delighted that Kerry County Council acceptable and I wish to use this opportunity to decided by a large majority on Monday to put the speak on behalf of the vast majority of people naming of Dingle to a vote of the people. The who want to get on with their business without council decided the vote would not be restricted this kind of discommoding of service. to townlands or civil parishes. It will cover the municipal area, as determined by the council, in Mr. O’Toole: In dealing with industrial accordance with the interpretation of the Act relations issues it is regularly pointed out to me provided by its advisers. This is line with my how slow groups like IBEC have been to say interpretation of the legislation and that of when things go wrong with their members and Senator Coghlan but it is different from the inter- that they are afraid to single them out for criti- pretation of the Attorney General and the Mini- cism. We do it differently on the other side. I do ster for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. not have the slightest difficulty whatever in con- I will not introduce the Bill until the plebiscite demning this action. It is inappropriate, unofficial takes place in Dingle. There is no doubt about and is in breach of the national wage talks. the result, which will be in conflict with the legis- 1213 Order of 16 May 2006. Business 1214 lation, and this will have to be resolved by the about information? Notwithstanding the spin in a Government. Sunday newspaper, those reports confirm that the accident and emergency service is a mess. That is Mr. Ryan: Nuair a tharlo´ idh se´,ta´ su´ il agam not the fault of the people working on the front nach mbeidh reifreann eile i mbaile fearainn eile line. We ought to see those reports and it is pecul- ar imeall Gaeltachta ag iarraidh go n-athro´ far an iar that they had to be extracted using the Free- logainm o´ Ghaelainn go Be´arla toisc nach dtait- dom of Information Act. naı´onn se´ le daoine bheith ainmnithe mar chuid I received a letter last week from Christian Aid den Ghaeltacht. Ma´ theastaı´onn le pobal an about conditions in the Palestinian territories. Daingin an logainm a athru´ go Be´arla, ba cho´ ir Among the issues raised in the letter, it was go n-imeoidh siad amach as an Ghaeltacht. Nı´ fe´i- pointed out that the occupying power is respon- dir liom theacht ar an re´iteach go mbeidh ainm sible for the well-being of the occupied people. It oifigiu´ il Be´arla ar bhaile ata´ in ainm is a bheith is a profound breach of international law for the sa nGaeltacht. Nı´ thuigim sin agus nı´or thuig me´ Israeli Government to use the people of Palestine riamh e´. as hostages. Ten Israelis have been killed in an I have little to add to the comments of my col- horrific car bombing and 20 Palestinians killed by leagues on the rail strike, except that whenever the Israeli defence forces in the same period of there is an operational problem in Irish Rail, the time. The two to one ratio continues and I suspect workers are always wheeled out by management. that it is a deliberate ratio. For every one Israeli I have never seen a manager on a platform when that is killed, two Palestinians are killed. Some trains are delayed or overcrowded. Usually a jun- people have tried to pretend that the crisis was ior staff member is presented. I recall a very nice over. I ask the Minister to come before the House gentleman walking through the train one day say- and explain how the EU proposes to ensure that ing, “I’m really sorry the train is overcrowded. It security and public services are sustained if it is is not my fault. You should take it up with man- going to ignore the government of the Palestinian agement who makes these decisions.” One would territories. This is a humanitarian crisis that was spend a long time looking for Irish Rail manage- not caused by an act of God, nor by a natural ment after 5 p.m. daily or on a Sunday when disaster, but by the deliberate policy of the US, trains are sometimes overcrowded. I agree the Israel and the EU. industrial action is entirely wrong and I am bemused by it. I recall the Garda sought more Mr. Leyden: I support Senator Ryan’s request money to use the PULSE system, which was for a debate on the Palestinian situation. I hope intended to make its job easier. I am never too the Minister for Foreign Affairs can come in to sure why people want more pay when they are discuss the issue as a matter of urgency. Can the about to be given improved equipment to do their Leader provide time in next week’s schedule to jobs better. It is always a mystery. discuss the serious drought in Kenya, Ethiopia However, Irish Rail management agreed driv- and Somalia? I commend the Minister for ers needed additional training over the weekend. Foreign Affairs and the Minister of State, Deputy There might be ambivalence or uncertainty about Conor Lenihan, as well as the president of the whether people are properly trained and while Irish Red Cross, David Andrews, who has been the action is wrong, there are issues. On Friday visiting the affected areas. The response of the evening, the management conceded at the last Government has been very generous and over \7 hour that there might be a training deficit issue, million of taxpayers’ money has been earmarked which I find quite frightening. This issue is not for the region. We should also commend the just about one individual, as these trains are full work of the voluntary agencies and the priests of hundreds of people. Let them go back to work, and nuns who carry out dynamic work there. The let these issues be resolved and let the long-suf- Sisters of Mercy have spent 50 years in Kenya fering people have access to trains that are less working with the poorest of the poor and we than 20 years old, commuters on the Cork to should recognise their contribution. We need the Dublin route having suffered for quite a while as opportunity to debate this grave situation, which a result of the older trains. is affecting around 11 million people. Ten reports on ten different accident and emer- gency services have been extracted from the Mr. Finucane: I compliment the producers of Department of Health and Children. The reports “Prime Time Investigates” on their programme were compiled for the Department using tax- last night, which was followed by a very compre- payers’ money — the Ta´naiste would call it “our hensive analysis on “Questions and Answers”. money”, because she is a great defender of tax- This morning, I listened to the Minister of State payers’ and Government money — but they were at the Department of Health and Children, to be kept secret until the Freedom of Infor- Deputy Tim O’Malley, admit on my local radio mation Act was invoked by a national newspaper. station that he was embarrassed by the prog- Now that the reports have been published by the ramme, as he should, given that he has been in national newspaper, could the Leader ensure they office for longer than four years. are also placed in the Oireachtas Library so that Senators on this side of the House are con- Members are not marginalised again on a debate stantly told that 1997 was a pivotal year in politi- 1215 Order of 16 May 2006. Business 1216

[Mr. Finucane.] situation in which a group of about 40 Afghans cal history but I remind Members on the other have camped in the cathedral. Although I under- side that they have been in Government for the stand the reservations of the Minister for Justice, past nine years. The Ta´naiste has recently admit- Equality and Law Reform, it would be useful ted that an emergency exists, so the Government were he to meet them without giving any commit- should get on with resolving the matter. We do ments. These people are in despair and have indi- not want to be described by people from outside cated they will starve themselves to death. They this jurisdiction as a Third World country in come from an appalling country, in which their respect of accident and emergency services. lives are plainly at risk. Given that we are seeking Last week, I received a telephone call from a favourable treatment for our own vulnerable emi- person whose 88 year old father was on a trolley grants to the United States of America, we ought in Limerick Regional Hospital for more than 24 to be sensitive in our treatment of these people hours. He asked me if I could do anything to help, rather than drive them into a corner. They have so I visited the accident and emergency depart- shown the imagination and capacity to come here ment at midnight and spoke to the person in in difficult circumstances. They would be an charge, who was extremely co-operative but drew addition to this country. The Minister could, as my attention to other elderly people on trolleys happened in Belgium, meet these people without and said she was ashamed of what she saw. commitment. Belgium allowed them to stay, and Regrettably, as there were no spare beds in the that would be the decent thing to do especially in hospital, a commitment could not be made to light of the appalling record of those charged by facilitate the person’s father. Meanwhile, Pro- us to examine people’s cases. There is at least one fessor Drumm claims we need better primary person who has boasted that he has never let any- care services instead of extra beds. I remind body in. That is not good enough. We should Members of the bureaucracy in the area of nurs- investigate this. ing home care and subventions. We must do away I support the calls for a debate on the Middle with these impediments and ensure elderly East, especially Palestine. The United States and people are facilitated. the European Union have behaved disgracefully in refusing to allow funds to go to a demo- Dr. Mansergh: I thank the drivers and staff of cratically elected government. While it may not Bus E´ ireann and other bus companies for provid- be of the complexion we would welcome, it is ing at least some public transport to the south and elected and, as Senator Ryan said, the civilian west, which I availed of when returning from a population is being used as a lever. While we celebration in the Mansion House on Sunday were abroad on parliamentary business last week night. In this year’s public capital programme, I saw on the BBC World Service a father grieving \427 million is being invested in CIE and the by the bedside of his nine year old son, waiting public wants the rolling stock at Limerick Junc- for him to die as a result of lack of parts for a tion, which has been travelling back and forth to kidney dialysis machine. The doctor explained Cork on trial runs, to be put into service. that the boy was drowning in his own waste prod- Representatives of Aer Lingus unions ucts and would inevitably die owing to a lack of approached me outside the Mansion House to equipment that should have been supplied. The argue strongly against any privatisation of the air- funds for such equipment are being withheld. The line. It is difficult to sustain that sort of argument death of that boy, which is now taking place, is a when wildcat strikes take place in other public reproach to the conscience of decent people services. Similar strikes do not occur in the everywhere and we should put pressure on our private sector because they would cause the Government to ensure at least the basic elements employer to close. While I hope the issue will be of welfare for this suffering people. resolved as soon as possible, we should hold a debate on it because, as Senator O’Toole noted, Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : Aontaı´mleisanme´id a bhı´ the strike is entirely contrary to the spirit and let- le ra´ ag an Seanado´ ir Ryan maidir leis an chon- ter of partnership. spo´ id in gContae Chiarraı´ i dtaobh na Gaelige. Ta´ an Daingean in ainm is a bheith sa Ghaeltacht Mr. Norris: I concur with Senator O’Toole that agus, da´r ndo´ igh, ta´ bunta´iste ag gabha´il leis sin. this is an unofficial strike which does not have Ta´ nı´os mo´ na´ bunta´iste, a´fach, ta´ freagracht ag union sanction and that unions have behaved gabha´il leis freisin, agus nı´ chabhraı´onn an chon- responsibly. It is somewhat unfair to transfer by spo´ id seo le stadas na Gaeilge na´ le cur chun cinn analogy events taking place within the rail na Gaeilge. services to Aer Lingus in an attempt to discredit One of the great human tragedies in the history those, such as myself, who oppose privatisation. of the State was the manner in which so many This unofficial strike is undemocratic, inap- were infected with hepatitis C and HIV as a result propriate and damaging to tourism. Many of us of the use of contaminated blood and blood prod- heard the anger expressed on the radio by foreign ucts. We all remember the harrowing stories of visitors to our shores. families that found themselves in this position. I commend the staff of St. Patrick’s Cathedral Although the story has left the headlines and is on their humane approach to the awkward no longer big news, the suffering of the families 1217 Order of 16 May 2006. Business 1218 continues and will continue for many years. Indecon which clearly illustrated the need for Transfusion Positive, an action group for victims further investment in port infrastructure. Now of this terrible mistake, has contacted us about an that our ports have been brought under the aegis insurance scheme for the victims. This issue has of the Department of Transport under Transport been going on for a considerable time, almost 21, I would like a debate on this matter. The nine years. Our sympathy goes to those victims group of 100 exporters and the large companies because their lives will never be the same again. of this country, which have been interviewed They found themselves in the wrong place at the about the report, accord high priority to further wrong time. It behoves us to come to their aid investment in our ports under the next national and ensure that insurance scheme is implemented development plan. as soon as possible. Mr. Quinn: Bearing in mind the shortage of Mr. U. Burke: On numerous occasions in the hospital beds reported in Ireland, my attention past year I have asked the Leader to bring to the was drawn recently to the position on hospital notice of the Minister for Education and Science beds in other countries. A friend of mine who the serious situation that has developed on an recently went to hospital in the United States was ongoing basis, and which has been repeated told he should stay in the hotel beside the today, whereby the bus fleet for transporting hospital. His operation was not very serious and pupils to school is unsafe. It is unbelievable that he was told he could be picked up at the hotel the Minister ignores the calls and concerns of and brought to the hospital after which he would many partners in education who are not poli- be returned to the hotel. Something similar hap- ticians. They have repeatedly asked for a com- pened in Hume Street Hospital some years ago plete audit on all school transport vehicles, those ´ — Hume Street is not too far from Leinster of Bus Eireann as well as the private operators. House. The hospital reorganised and devoted half This inspection must be independent. A disaster of its operation to day care because it found that was narrowly avoided today when a bus caught a very large number of its patients did not have fire in County Westmeath. We have had disaster to stay in bed all day long or all week long. and tragedy in Meath and Offaly in the recent My attention was drawn this morning to a pro- past. posal in the United Kingdom that the relatives of I am not so sure what it will take to activate older people who are blocking hosptial beds, but the Minister to address the problems and disas- who are not ill and refusing to move out, should ters associated with school transport. It is be obliged to pay for their accommodation. I am important that there be an independent assessor for all the vehicles, once and for all. not sure whether this is the right approach but we sometimes try to invent a new approach to solve It is clear the bus that went on fire today did our problems in Ireland when we could copy what not have a fire extinguisher on board. If it were not for the alertness of the pupils themselves, we is happening in other countries. There is a sol- would surely be talking about an even greater ution worth examining which would immediately tragedy today. The Leader should invite the remedy some of the demands in regard to our Minister to the House to indicate clearly that she hospital beds. will carry out, once and for all, a thorough audit of all school buses, both private and public. Ms White: I call for an urgent debate on care options for older people following the report in Mr. Morrissey: Like other Senators, I condemn today’s edition of The Irish Times that a consult- out of hand the wildcat strike that has taken place ant recommends that families be charged the full in the past 48 hours. My party has always said cost of caring for their elderly relatives in acute that reform should be part of the great invest- hospital beds in circumstances where those ment in public transport, including in our rail- families have blocked their discharge from ways. Only last week the interconnector for the hospital. The reality is that families often cannot DART in Dublin was being designed and spoken afford to pay for the cost of residential home about. It is inappropriate for a strike such as this care. Most people do not want to enter residential to spread across the country at a time when we home care. are trying to improve people’s confidence in I call on the Ta´naiste and Minister for Health public transport. There is no question but that it and Children to spell out the correct care options must be condemned. Irrespective of whether that should exist for older people. Most people, management or unions are at fault regarding the only 5%, end up in residential home care. Some strike, safety must be paramount on our railways, \1 billion is spent every year on care for the eld- especially if we are to encourage people to use erly. Although this is anti-ageism week, Ireland is public transport. lax in its care of older people. Most people wish Will the Leader make time available in this or to remain at home when they get sick and do not the next session for a debate on our ports? The wish to enter residential care. We have poor former Minister of State at the Department of back-up home care in this country, despite the \1 Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, billion spent on investment in residential home Deputy Gallagher, recently published a report by care by private entrepreneurs. 1219 Order of 16 May 2006. Business 1220

Mr. Bannon: I ask the Leader to invite the Mr. Coonan: Perhaps we can get a response to Minister for Transport to the House to debate the ensure that all children are treated equally and ever-increasing backlog of those awaiting driving that the war chest is distributed equally. tests. The figure in respect of each county is increasing, despite promises made by the Minister Mr. Callanan: Can Senator Coonan not wel- for Transport, Deputy Cullen, to slash the back- come the allocation? log. In the past 12 months the figure has increased by 10,000 nationally. There is a waiting list of Mr. Browne: I ask the Leader to investigate the 135,000 nationwide for the driving test. This is a delay in urgently needed home care and home damning indictment of a Minister who promised help workers to take up their positions. Many change. It is an outrageous attack on our young people have been successful in their application people, who are forced to pay high insurance pre- for home help and have been recruited but are miums because of the inability to test them. Sit- held up because of the backlog created by new ting the test would enable them to receive a full vetting procedures that come into effect on 1 January. There is a crazy scenario where many licence and reduce their insurance premiums. elderly people who are urgently in need of home This lame duck Minister has failed to overhaul help and home care, but who are perhaps stuck the driving test system. He has squandered tax- in nursing homes in which they do not wish to be, payers’ money in every portfolio he has held. It cannot return home because of the vetting pro- is time he came to this House to account for his cedure. Will the Leader speak to the Minister for actions, waste and negligence with regard to Justice, Equality and Law Reform to see if extra reducing the driving test waiting list. resources can be given to the vetting unit which, I believe, is in Thurles to screen those applications ´ Mr. Cummins: Like Senator O Murchu´ , I sup- quickly, thus avoiding problems elsewhere? port the calls of the Irish Haemophilia Society I totally disagree with Senator Norris on the and Transfusion Positive. They have been Afghan asylum seekers. When people apply for awaiting an insurance scheme for people infected asylum here, they agree to leave the country if with hepatitis C and HIV through contaminated they are unsuccessful. We cannot have a scenario blood and blood products for nine years. The where people who do not get their way write their Ta´naiste promised that legislation would be intro- own rules. It is a very awkward situation and I duced by April. When will such legislation be wish the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law introduced? Reform well in his endeavours in this regard. We I agree with the call for a debate on our ports, would want to be very careful about giving in to which carry the vast majority of trade and traffic mob rule on this issue. of exports and imports. They are of vital import- Somebody came into my office recently claim- ance to the country and I look forward to an early ing he had fled a war torn country and came debate on this. straight to Ireland. It emerged later that he had lived in England for years and had a family there. Mr. Coonan: Last week the Minister for His story was completely bogus. It is important to Justice, Equality and Law Reform announced a check out these cases. If people are refused asy- staffing grant of \100,000 for a cre`che centre in lum on legitimate grounds, they should leave the Templemore. This is most welcome but the prob- country and we should not be bullied or forced lem is that the centre is not yet built. The plan- into taking another position. ning process is under way at present. Now that the war chest is full and such grants will be allo- Ms O’Rourke: Senator Brian Hayes raised the cated over the summer, can the Leader ensure wildcat industrial action by locomotive drivers and particularly the fact people were not equal treatment for the taxpayers of Ireland? A informed of the action. If they had been number of people have applied for grants for informed, they would not have crowded into cre`che facilities and have been ignored yet a Kent Station only to be sent away. Young centre that is not yet built has been awarded a students in Kildare were setting off for university staffing grant. Could the Leader arrange to exams and we heard one of them on radio yester- explain to Members of the Opposition the criteria day. One must consider the discommoding of used in determining allocation of these grants? people going about their business. As Senator O’Toole said, these were wildcat An Cathaoirleach: That could be explained at strikes which were not legal. The talk about train- an Adjournment debate. ing is a smokescreen for looking for more money for driving new trains. In 2001, when the new Mr. Coonan: This case could be explained but trains were ordered, the drivers got a cash pay- there are many other examples. The Progressive ment. The Labour Court expressly stated they Democrats are as good at pulling a stroke as received that payment. One cannot treat people Fianna Fa´il. in such an appalling way. Senator O’Toole is right that there were five Mr. Moylan: We just get the job done. years of industrial peace because the last substan- 1221 Order of 16 May 2006. Business 1222 tial agreement with CIE workers of all grades, House by the Aer Lingus unions but said there but mainly with drivers, gave them decent pay was no parallel between the privatisation of Aer which they were due because they perform a very Lingus and the wildcat strikes. Senator Norris onerous job. The drivers cannot treat the public seemed to think Senator Mansergh was compar- in this way. ing the two cases but he was not. He was pointing I fully agree with Senators O’Toole, Brian out there was no comparison between the two. Hayes and Morrissey and others who spoke on Senator Norris also referred to the Afghan asy- the matter. Complete disregard was shown for lum seekers in St. Patrick’s Cathedral and the people who pay fares and pay the drivers’ wages. humanitarian way in which they are being Everyone has the constitutional right to withdraw treated. We are all glad to know they have been his or her labour but one must operate according drinking water since yesterday. The Senator also to strictures and there are procedures which these spoke about Palestine. drivers can work through with their unions. I was Senator O´ Murchu´ referred to Dingle. He also glad to hear one of the trade union representa- raised the case of those infected with hepatitis C tives yesterday condemn this type of action, and the fact that nine years later, an insurance which Senator O’Toole mentioned. scheme has still not be introduced. There is some Senator O’Toole raised the fact the people of word on that issue. The hepatitis C and HIV com- Kerry are to hold a plebiscite on what they should pensation tribunal (amendment) Bill is expected call Dingle. That is a common sense approach to be published this session. It will provide for the and we are glad that will happen. The Senator establishment of an insurance scheme for infected will not move his Bill until he sees what happens. persons. Hopefully, it will be published this Senator Ryan wondered if there would be a session and we will be able to convey that to further raft of plebiscites if other towns decide to those who wrote to us on the matter. change their names. He also said Irish Rail man- Senator Ulick Burke referred to the bus fleet agement was nowhere to be seen. He said there and said it was unsafe. I do not know the circum- was a deficit in training but there is not. A con- stances of the fire on the bus at Delvin but the siderable amount of training has taken place. He Senator has called for an independent audit of all also asked that the ten reports on accident and buses, including CIE buses and those which are emergency services be put in the Oireachtas subcontracted. There does not appear to have Library. I will pass on that request. been a fire extinguisher on board the bus at Senator Ryan also spoke about the very Delvin. Senator Morrissey condemned the wild- graphic Christian Aid letter on the people of cat strikes and said safety must be paramount. He Palestine. He said the humanitarian crisis was not also called for a debate on ports, which are now caused by God but by man. Senator Leyden the responsibility of the Department of called for a debate on Kenya, Ethiopia and Som- Transport. alia and on the valiant priests and nuns who have Senator Quinn referred to a friend of his in the worked in those places for so long. US who went into hospital for a minor operation I share Senator Finucane’s praise for the but who stayed in a hotel close by before and “Prime Time” report on accident and emergency after the procedure. It is always very instructive services which I watched along with the prog- to look at other countries and how they manage ramme after it. It was very graphic and it was sad situations. to see, in the main, very elderly people terrified Senator White called for a debate on the eld- of going to a hospital. None of us would like to erly, care options and home care. Senator go to hospital but these people were terrified Bannon called for the Minister for Transport to because they did not know how they would be come to the House to discuss driving tests. I am treated. glad to tell him there is a move in that regard, although not realised as yet. Talks are under way Mr. Bannon: Does the Leader believe the to bring about an arrangement whereby driving Minister should resign? tests will be outsourced for a short period to get a large number off the books, which is very Ms O’Rourke: I thought “Questions & welcome. Answers” was very good and most explanatory. Senator Cummins asked about the insurance People were calm and gave their opinions. Slow scheme for those infected with hepatitis C and as it is, there is a movement towards reform HIV. As I said, that Bill is being drafted and will which, hopefully, will be allowed to proceed. If it be introduced in this session. Senator Coonan is, we will have a better hospital service. welcomed the staffing grant for the cre`che in Templemore but wanted to know why other such Mr. Bannon: The Government parties have facilities were not getting grants. Since I am not been in office for nine years. in the inspectorate of child care facilities, I have no idea why one such facility would get a grant Ms O’Rourke: Senator Mansergh referred to over another. No doubt the Senator will make the public capital programme and the \427 mil- much noise about that issue. lion being invested in CIE in 2006. He spoke Senator Browne said we should check the bona about being approached outside the Mansion fides of those seeking asylum. One is meant to 1223 Planning and Development 16 May 2006. (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 1224

[Ms O’Rourke.] sympathy to the members of Fine Gael, who have seek asylum in the country of first origin, accord- lost two former colleagues. ing to the Dublin Convention for which the This group of amendments seeks to revise the former Minister of State, Deputy Burton, was description of the actors in the planning process, responsible. namely, the Environmental Protection Agency I too have come across the long period it takes and the prospective applicants, with the conse- to vet people taking up caring positions. In that quential deletions. On Committee Stage I sym- time the position may lapse or the person may pathised with Senator Bannon’s attempts to sim- not come through the vetting procedure which plify the language of the Bill as virtually every gives rise to problems. I would be glad to take up Bill could do with some simplification. I made it this point. clear, however, that while the language may seem excessively complicated the phrasing used by the Order of Business agreed to. Parliamentary Counsel is the best and most appropriate way of expressing our intentions. Planning and Development (Strategic None of these amendments would add value Infrastructure) Bill 2006: Report and Final and they could reduce the legal certainty of the Stages. text. I regret that I am not in a position to accept Acting Chairman (Mr. U. Burke): I welcome any of the amendments. We will later discuss the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and another amendment which demonstrates the dan- Local Government, Deputy Roche, to the House. gers of accepting textual amendments on the Before we commence, I remind Senators that a hoof. Senator may speak only once on Report Stage, except the proposer of the amendment, who may Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. reply to the discussions on the amendment. Each amendment must be seconded on Report Stage. Amendments Nos. 2 to 5, inclusive, not moved. Amendment No. 1 in the name of Senator Bannon is consequential on amendment No. 2, An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 27 and amendments Nos. 3 to 5, inclusive, and is consequential on amendment No. 6 in the name amendment No. 28 are related. Amendments of Senator Bannon. Amendments Nos. 6 and 27 Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, and amendment No. 28 may will be discussed together by agreement. be discussed together by agreement. Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 6: Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 1: In page 7, to delete lines 39 to 44 and substi- In page 6, between lines 1 and 2, to insert tute the following: the following: “(7) In this section ‘appropriate planning “ “the Agency” means the Environmental authority’ means the appropriate planning Protection Agency as established by the authority that would have ordinarily dealt with Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992;”. the application referred to in that subsection, prior to the enactment of section 3 of the These amendments would bring greater clarity to Planning and Development (Strategic the Bill and improve it for the purpose of inter- Infrastructure) Act 2006.”. pretation. The Minister gave a negative response to these amendments on Committee Stage but I commend these amendments containing draft- perhaps now that he has had time to read them ing improvements to the House. in greater detail he has changed his mind about In amendment No. 27, I propose deleting lines them. I would appreciate if he could take them on 18 to 24 and replacing them with “ ”appropriate board because they would improve the drafting of planning authority“ has the meaning assigned to the Bill. it in section 37B(7)”. On Committee Stage the Minister promised that he would look at this Mr. U. Burke: I second the amendment. section and said he might consider it on Report Stage. I would welcome his views after consider- Minister for the Environment, Heritage and ation of those amendments, particularly amend- Local Government (Mr. Roche): I am grateful to ment No. 27 because the Minister said there the Senator for his persistence and charm. could be some improvement in this section. Regrettably, my answer will be the same as it was on Committee Stage. Mr. U. Burke: I second the amendment. Before I reply to the Senator, however, I wish to speak on a personal note. I recall the former Mr. Roche: I regret being negative because I Senator Codd, who was from Wexford. I am told the Senator that I am disposed to using com- aware that Senators have just paid tribute to him, monplace language in legislation. The strong and to former Senator Mannion, and while it may advice, however, is that the language used here is be inappropriate for me to do so, I wish to be the normal phrase to be used in such circum- associated with those fine tributes. I extend my stances and it would be unwise to accept the 1225 Planning and Development 16 May 2006. (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 1226 amendments. With regret I am not in a position the Bill. The amendment simply inserts “(1)” into to be positive. the subsection to correct and tidy up the text.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 7 Amendment No. 12 not moved. to 10, inclusive, and Nos. 33 to 36, inclusive, form a composite proposal and may be discussed An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment Nos. 13, together by agreement. 15, 16, 17 and 30 form a composite proposal and may be discussed together by agreement. Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 7: Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 13: In page 9, lines 23 and 24, to delete “of the proposed development”. In page 10, line 39, to delete “for permission”. Most of these eight amendments are technical and would tidy up and clarify the Bill. On Com- The Minister promised on Committee Stage that mittee Stage, the Minister committed himself to he would give consideration to those amend- considering some of those amendments and giv- ments on Report Stage. I await his views. These ing a final decision on them today. I look forward are technical amendments which would improve to hearing the Minister’s view. the Bill and provide greater clarity.

Mr. U. Burke: I second the amendment. Mr. B. Hayes: I second the amendment. Mr. Roche: These amendments delete the Mr. Roche: The words “the proposed develop- words “for permission” from the phrase “applic- ment” appear in all eight of these amendments. ant for permission”. In this case the phrase is It appears somewhat pedantic to reference “the clearer with the words “for permission” in it. I proposed development” in each section. The stated previously that I did not believe this amendments concern a change in style rather achieved the objective Senator Bannon was try- than a fundamental change to the text. ing to achieve, which was to make things a little In other cases, however, Senator Bannon pro- shorter and more concise. There is no added posed to include some words to clarify the mean- value and some tiny ambiguity is introduced if I ing of some of the text. In these cases he proposes were to delete the words “for permission”. to edit them. In the interests of consistency I will Although I gave the matter consideration I do not not accept these amendments. propose to accept the amendments.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments Nos. 8 to 10, inclusive, not Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 14: moved. In page 10, line 43, after “indicate” to insert An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. “where applicable”. 11, 12 and 53 are technical drafting amendments This is a technical amendment which would and may be discussed together by agreement. greatly improve the grammar of the Bill. I ask the Minister to consider accepting it. Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 11: In page 10, line 4, to delete “from the ” and Mr. B. Hayes: I second the amendment. substitute “of”. Mr. Roche: The amendment proposes to insert These are technical amendments. Amendment the phrase “where applicable” in the paragraph No. 11 proposes a grammatical improvement. I permitting the board to indicate that it considered await the Minister’s response to these granting permission subject to the applicant for amendments. permission submitting revised drawings, with the addition of the phrase “where applicable”. This is Mr. U. Burke: I second the amendment. unnecessary because the section states that the board has an absolute discretion as to when it can Mr. Roche: Amendments Nos. 11 and 12 pro- fulfil the function outlined in the section. The pose minor changes relating to the drafting of the provision concerned, therefore, is one of the text. They do not add value to the text and they important changes sought by the board to allow may have unforeseen consequences. I do not pro- it greater flexibility and powers in handling major pose to accept them. applications and will allow the board ensure the I will comment on Government amendment right development in the right place. For this No. 53 which is a technical correction. It is neces- reason and because I do not believe the addition sary to ensure that numbering of inserted sections of the phrase would add anything to the Bill and is correct and has no impact on the substance of as it runs contrary to the earlier editing that 1227 Planning and Development 16 May 2006. (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 1228

[Mr. Roche.] “, and it shall not make such a decision Senator Bannon was proposing, I regret I cannot within that period without having either— accept the amendment. (i) considered the observations of the Agency, or Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. (ii) received notification from the Agency Amendments Nos. 15 to 17, inclusive, not that the Agency does not intend to make a moved. submission”.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. As I stated on Committee Stage, it is important 18, 19, 20, 23 and 24, form a composite proposal to maintain democratic participation in vital and may be discussed together by agreement. decision-making affecting the general public. Decisions should be taken in consultation with Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 18: the Environmental Protection Agency which is doing a good job. In page 11, line 52, to delete “or for the pur- poses of an activity for which”. Mr. B. Hayes: I second the amendment. These are technical amendments which would Mr. Brady: The board requests the observation tidy up and give greater clarity to the Bill. When in the previous section of the Bill which means it they were discussed on Committee Stage the will take them into consideration. It is straight- Minister stated he would give consideration to forward from that point of view. them. Mr. Roche: Senator Brady is correct. I Mr. B. Hayes: I second the amendment. explained on Committee Stage that this amend- ment is unnecessary. The amendment proposes to Mr. Roche: Amendments Nos. 18, 20, 23 and prevent the board making a decision on an appli- 24, propose to delete the words “or for the pur- cation, where there is a live request to the poses of an activity for which”, from section 5 and Environmental Protection Agency to make would reinstate a similar phrase later on. This observations on an application which, “comprises phrase, “comprising or for the purposes of an or is for the purposes of” an IPPC or waste- activity” is used throughout the Planning and licensable activity. I do not propose to accept the Development Act 2000, the Environmental Pro- amendment. It should be noted that the board tection Act and the Waste Management Act. It is does not make decisions without having sought a common phrase which seems to be somewhat the views of the EPA where the board considers cumbersome. I think it is sufficiently broad to they are necessary. ensure that the EPA is consulted where necessary The planning and IPPC licensing systems are for the board to obtain its views and therefore, I separate but related processes. There is, however, do not propose to accept the amendment. There an interface between them, the principles of is a particular risk of confusion where different which are set down in the Environ- language is used in different sections to express 4 o’clock mental Protection Act 1992, as the same idea. Much of the language used in the amended by the 2003 Protection of Bill is based on the existing phraseology in the the Environment Act. The current arrangements 2000 Act, as amended by the Protection of the enable the planning system and the IPPC’s licens- Environment Act 2003. ing systems to reach their own conclusions on Senator Bannon suggested on Committee applications and for planning permission to be Stage that his language had been used to amend refused on environmental grounds, but oppor- these Acts in the Protection of the Environment tunities are taken for each system to acknowledge Act. I refer the Senator to section 99F, inserted the other and for the separate consent authorities by section 15 of the 2003 Act in which the langu- to consult each other. age used as the same as is used here. The amendment would put the strategic con- With regard to amendment No. 19, it would sent process out of step with the arrangements simply delete the word, “a”, in the phrase, “an currently in place for dealing with non-strategic integrated pollution control licence or a waste planning cases, which are working fine in prac- licence” in subsection (5). The phrase is correct tice. I am sure such an effect was not the as it is and I do not propose to change it as this Senator’s intention but that would be one of the would be a disimprovement. practical implications of what he proposes. The proposed change would also introduce a Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. delay into the strategic process which is contrary to what we are trying to achieve in this Bill and Amendments Nos. 19 and 20 not moved. contradictory to the Senator’s subsequent amend- ment to reduce the time the board has to make a Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 21: decision. It would effectively tie the hands of the In page 12, line 11, after “subsection (5)”, to board in key cases, when in practice we need to insert the following: ensure the board has the flexibility to make 1229 Planning and Development 16 May 2006. (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 1230 efficient and robust decisions. Senator Bannon in In page 15, line 7, to delete “to be specified his contribution strongly supported the idea of by the Board,”. making robust and timely decisions. He suggested an even more timely period than the 18 weeks Mr. Roche: Throughout my responses on Com- provided in the Bill. mittee Stage and today, I repeated that the There is a contradiction in terms of the effect Government must rely on the advice of the of the proposed amendment. First, it would have Parliamentary Counsel on the correct and accur- the unforeseen circumstance of rendering the consent process out of step with the arrangements ate expression of our intentions in this legislation. currently in place for non-strategic cases and, It has been on this basis that I have refused to ironically, would result in a further tieing of the accept most of the textual amendments put for- hands of the board, which is contrary to good ward. However, I indicated that I had sympathy amendments put forward by the Senator in other with this amendment when it was tabled by cases. In the interests of ensuring the Senator is Senator Bannon and I raised it again with the consistent, I will not accept the amendment. Parliamentary Counsel, as I promised I would on Committee Stage. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. This is a good example of how a seemingly innocuous amendment with a reasonable justifi- Government amendment No. 22: cation — Senator Bannon made a reasonable case for its inclusion on the last occasion — could In page 12, line 33, after “provision,” to create legal difficulty by affecting the overall insert “the report (and the recommendations, balance of a studied and carefully worded text. if any, attached to it) submitted by a planning While it initially appeared to have no impact on authority in accordance with section 37E(4),”. the meaning of the section, the Parliamentary Counsel has pointed out that it could be read in Mr. Roche: On Committee Stage in response to a different way, meaning that the board could an Opposition amendment submitted by Senator indicate after giving its decision what community McCarthy and supported by Senator Bannon, I facility or service was to be funded, instead of said I would consider amending the Bill to specify indicating that at the time the decision was given. that the board shall consider the planning auth- This would be a perverse interpretation because ority’s report to it and take into account any this is certainly not what Senator Bannon had in recommendations by the elected members. It was mind, nor I when I was supportive of his always the intention that this would be the case. proposal. As I said in my Second Stage contribution, one The Parliamentary Counsel suggested a of the unusual features of this Bill is that we are number of amendments to rectify this problem, returning to a situation that has not pertained which would have to follow through in each case since 1963 in giving councillors, the elected rep- the community gain provision occurs and would resentatives of the people, a statutory right to add substantially to the complexity of the langu- have their voice heard. age, something of which I know the Senator However, I have decided that the explicit would not approve and would not want to impose inclusion of the report and recommendations in on the Bill. the list of matters to be considered by the board The simpler solution appears to be to delete in making a determination is appropriate and I the text in question and return the phrasing to take this opportunity to do so. It underlines the the original, which is most appropriate to our importance I attach to the views of the authority objective and that is what I propose we should do. and, in particular, the views of elected representa- The views of the Parliamentary Counsel on the tives being taken on board as part of the delib- impact of the proposed change were precisely the erations. opposite to the reasonable argument put forward The two main Opposition parties would be by the Senator. I propose that we delete the strongly supportive of this view. That argument words that were added and which I was agreeable was made by Senators McCarthy and Bannon. I am pleased to propose this amendment in to add and to return to the original text. response to the cogent argument made by This is a good example of how the Parliamen- Senator Bannon and in response to my ethos, tary Counsel can prudently come up with, to put which is to give a real role to local authority it mildly, meanings and that could be construed members to make their expressions and will in a court case or in a challenge to the legislation heard. to be contrary to the effects the Senator and I had hoped to achieve. What I propose is not a Amendment agreed to. sleight on Senator Bannon, as if it were, it would be a sleight on me. I am simply bowing to the Amendments Nos. 23 and 24 not moved. well argued case put forward by the Parliamen- tary Counsel. I hope the House will support this Government amendment No. 25: amendment. 1231 Planning and Development 16 May 2006. (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 1232

Amendment agreed to. In page 17, line 26, to delete “18” and substi- tute “12”. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 26 and 45 are cognate and they may be discussed This recommendation is to reduce the time for a together by agreement. decision from 18 to 12 weeks. A 12-week period is sufficient. We discussed this in great detail on Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 26: Committee Stage and the Minister appeared to be undecided. Finally, while not conceding the In page 15, to delete lines 11 to 17. issue, he more or less reverted to the 18 weeks. These are technical amendments. However, during his contribution I felt that he would allow the three-month period. A 12-week Mr. Cummins: I second the amendment. period is a long time but an 18-week interval puts considerable pressure on much of the develop- Mr. Roche: I thank Senators Bannon and Cum- ment that is to take place. The Minister referred mins. These amendments relate to the new power to my earlier amendment, and said it would be being given to the board allowing it to attach contradictory to this. However, I do not believe community gain conditions to a draft permission, so. The Minister could reduce the time-lag for a a matter on which we had a long discussion earl- decision. One would complement the other and ier. The amendments would delete the subsection greater clarity would be brought to the Bill. (8) that provides for the community gain con- dition to be proportionate; the subsection states Mr. Cummins: I second the amendment. that the financial contribution required to comply with the community gain condition should not be Mr. Brady: Some of the projects to be dealt so large as to essentially make it financially unvi- with under this legislation will be among the larg- able for the developer to carry out the est in the history of the State. They will be even development. bigger into the future. I suggest that the 18-week I know all Senators support this change to plan- interval could be found at some stage in the ning law which, while simple, is in some way quite future to be too short and extensions may be radical. I can appreciate the sentiment which sought. It does, at least, leave it open for would seek to ensure the absolute maximum for decisions to be made quicker, if it says “within a local communities is forthcoming after a planning period of 18 weeks”. In the future, when some of case has been through the process. However, this the major projects come on stream, it could be clause was inserted on foot of discussions with the that the time interval will need to be extended. Parliamentary Counsel to ensure that the pro- vision, or any condition imposed on it, could not Mr. Roche: I said earlier, on Committee Stage, be challenged as unfair. Furthermore, it is per- that I very much shared Senator Bannon’s fectly reasonable to ensure that the condition to ambition that decisions should be made as provide for community gain is not used as a way quickly as possible. The Senator is quite right. We of refusing permission by the back door, granting are talking about strategic infrastructure, which is permission but making the community gain con- an enormous gain for the community as a whole. dition so burdensome as to essentially dissuade It is therefore important we make decisions the applicant from carrying out the development. quickly, certainly more speedily than at present. There is another point. While reading through In my constituency there is a piece of strategic the papers earlier, it struck me that removing the infrastructure that has been tied up in the plan- word “conditional” could have two outcomes, ning process for 12 and a half years. If I could get namely, that a condition could be dispro- it down to 12 and a half months, I would be lucky. portionately large or disproportionately small. However, there are cogent arguments against That would not be the intention of anybody in bringing it right down to 12 weeks. A decision this House. The idea of having a proportionate has to be made within 18 weeks, so the board is community gain condition is wise and prudent in required to take the full period in which to reach the circumstances. Unfortunately, I am not in a it. The amendment is somewhat unrealistic, position to accept the amendments. If the Senator thinks through what I have said, particularly my however, given the size of the projects we are last point, he would realise that all sorts of per- talking about. Some of them will be of massive verse and completely unforeseeable and undesir- scale requiring a high level of quality in terms of able changes could flow if we were to remove the the process and decision making involved. In word “conditional”. practice, therefore, 18 weeks is the shortest feas- ible time within which the board can give thor- Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. ough scrutiny to projects, especially in cases where oral hearings are required. In comparable Amendments Nos. 27 and 28 not moved. cases in terms of size currently before the board, namely, local authority cases, the board made Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 29: decisions in three quarters of them within the 18- 1233 Planning and Development 16 May 2006. (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 1234 week period. I therefore regard 18 weeks as marker and I compliment him on that. If planning quite ambitious. decisions could be taken within the 18-week As the Senator mentioned the last day, I have period, we should all be very happy. It does not agreed to increase the board’s staffing by an happen at the moment, but hopefully when the additional 24 people. That should ensure that the Bill goes through, it will. If we can get something board can deal with ordinary appeals and absorb through in a stipulated period, it will make life the new work. However, I think that to reduce easier for those of us who wish to see this country the time interval from 18 to 12 weeks would be with the type of infrastructure it needs in all unwise, because it would be overly ambitious. I areas, particularly in the BMW region. While I share the Senator’s ambition, nonetheless, that sympathise with the Senator’s cause, I do not we should make these decisions as quickly as pos- believe it is practical to try to tie matters down to sible — and 18 weeks is probably getting it right. 12 weeks. The 18-week interval is ambitious and we should keep it at that. I cannot accept the Mr. Bannon: I tabled this amendment out of amendment, so I hope the Senator is not frustration. The Minister is probably aware that I pressing it. come from the BMW region where there is a major underspend of approved funding. A prog- Amendment put and declared lost. ramme of funding was to be spent by 2007 and we are less than half way into the drawdown of Amendment No. 30 not moved. these moneys. There are major problems with many of the large infrastructural projects. There Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 31: are problems with the southern bypass for Long- In page 18, line 17, after “of” to insert “a ford and tourism development projects in specified application or to”. Roscommon. Decisions have not been taken on those despite the public outcry for quick sol- Again, this is a technical amendment. I support utions. I have put down the amendment out of the removal of the recommendation to insert “a frustration because there are unnecessary delays specified application or to”, in page 18, line 17, in a great many areas, particularly in the draw- after “of”. This would improve the Bill for inter- down in BMW areas, which stands at around 46% pretation purposes. of the entire budget, and this is ridiculous. Those moneys were to be spent on the poorest areas of Mr. Roche: We discussed this matter at some the country and the drawdown is very poor; I length the last day, and it is a very interesting want that on the record of the House yet again. proposition. However, it is not one I have sym- There is frustration among the general public as pathy with for the simple reason that it would regards the lack of infrastructural development in leave the particular Minister of the day open to the region. We are told the moneys were pro- all types of challenges as regards abuse of power vided, but there are problems with planning and etc. The amendment proposes to empower the with getting projects off the ground. Minister to give direction to the board to priorit- ise a particular application. As I explained on Mr. Roche: I fully appreciate the points the Committee Stage, the text as it stands allows the Senator is making. I have voiced my feelings at Minister to give directions to the board to priorit- the inappropriate use of the planning process sim- ise a class or certain classes of infrastructure that ply to delay projects. He mentioned the southern may be of particular importance at a given time. bypass at Longford. As the Senator knows, I vis- However, I thought I was clear in asserting that I ited the town recently, and the frustration there could not accept this amendment as it would be is very real. One can discern there is a major inappropriate for a Minister of the day to have impact on the quality of life on coming though the specific power to fast-track a particular appli- the town, where one has to make a right and a cation, which is what is being proposed. As Mini- left turn. The heavy traffic going through Long- ster, I do not wish to have this additional power. ford town makes life impossible. Sadly, the The existing powers to direct the board to Senator is quite right in his assertion that there expedite certain broad types of case are sufficient. are cases up and down the country where people If Ministers were to intervene in the manner the are using the planning process — which is very Senator is proposing, in individual planning appli- open and democratic — as a means of simply cations, this would raise the possibility of charges delaying, very unreasonably, infrastructure that of political interference. It might well be political delivers benefits. In the BMW region, in part- interference for a positive reason, but it is far icular, such infrastructure is necessary. The whole better that we avoid giving the Minister of the ethos of the Bill is about getting rid of such obsta- day power to make a direction in the form sug- cles and achieving a better balance. gested in the amendment as regards individual Notwithstanding that, I really do not believe a cases. It is preferable that the Bill should give the 12-week period gives sufficient time. I realise the Minister power to prioritise a certain class or Senator has tactically tabled the amendment as a classes and leave it at that. I ask Senator Bannon 1235 Planning and Development 16 May 2006. (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 1236

[Mr. Roche.] An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 38 to withdraw the amendment. I do not think it is a Government amendment. It has already been would be wise to push it. discussed with amendment No. 32.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Government amendment No. 38:

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 32 In page 20, line 40, to delete “a statutory is a Government amendment. Amendments 32 undertaker” and substitute “an undertaker”. and 37 to 44, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Amendment agreed to. Agreed. Government amendment No. 32: An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 39 is a Government amendment. It has already been In page 18, line 29, to delete “statutory discussed with amendment No. 32. undertaker” and substitute “person (hereafter referred to in this section as the ‘undertaker’)”. Government amendment No. 39: In page 21, line 9, to delete “statutory”. Mr. Roche: I mentioned on Committee Stage that further consideration would need to be given to the electricity transmission consent procedures Amendment agreed to. which are set out in sections 182A and 182B to ensure they would cover all of the infrastructural An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 40 projects we have envisaged. At the request of the is a Government amendment. It has already been Department of Communications, Marine and discussed with amendment No. 32. Natural Resources, we have decided to make a number of clarifying amendments to section Government amendment No. 40: 182A to ensure it encompasses the proposed east- In page 21, line 13, to delete “statutory”. west interconnector between Britain and Ireland. The key issues are as follows. First, ensuring Amendment agreed to. that the interconnector, which may not be owned by the ESB, can still come within the terms of the An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 41 Bill, although in general the electricity trans- is a Government amendment. It has already been mission system is by definition owned by the discussed with amendment No. 32. ESB, there is an exception in the case of an elec- tricity interconnector. Under new provisions to Government amendment No. 41: be enacted in the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2006, an interconnector may be In page 21, line 15, to delete “a statutory constructed, operated or owned by a person other undertaker” and substitute “an undertaker”. than the ESB. Amendment No. 44 makes a parallel amendment to our legislation. Amendment agreed to. Second, we want to change the words ‘statutory undertaker’ in the sections, to ‘undertaker’. This An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 42 simple change is again intended to ensure that is a Government amendment. It has already been any private company proposing to construct the discussed with amendment No. 32. interconnector comes within the terms of this Bill. Government amendment No. 42: Amendment agreed to. In page 21, line 24, to delete “statutory”. Amendments Nos. 33 to 36, inclusive, not moved. Amendment agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 37 An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 42 is a Government amendment. It has already been is a Government amendment. It has already been discussed with amendment No. 32. discussed with amendment No. 32.

Government amendment No. 37: Government amendment No. 43: In page 20, line 9, to delete “a statutory In page 22, lines 16 and 17, to delete undertaker” and substitute “an undertaker”. “statutory”.

Amendment agreed to. Amendment agreed to. 1237 Planning and Development 16 May 2006. (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 1238

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 43 Amendment No. 48 relates to harbour areas. I is a Government amendment. It has already been propose to delete 20 hectares and substitute this discussed with amendment No. 32. with ten hectares. As I pointed out on Committee Stage, the need arises on the Shannon — one of Government amendment No. 43: our finest waterways — to have small harbours In page 22, lines 16 and 17, to delete for berthing purposes. The same is true of other “statutory”. areas and this should be accommodated in order to improve the tourism industry. An area of 20 hectares is large and this should be reduced to Amendment agreed to. ten hectares. The Minister previously indicated he would consider a reduction in the size. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 44 I also seek a reduction in the number of wind is a Government amendment. It has already been turbines from 50 to ten because many small wind- discussed with amendment No. 32. farm enterprises are being developed, especially in the Cavan and midlands area. We should not Government amendment No. 44: put obstacles in place for these people but try to In page 22, line 20, after “1999” to insert improve the planning system where possible to “but, for the purposes of this section, the fore- accommodate a clean energy supply. going expression, in relation to electricity, shall also be construed as meaning the transport of Mr. Cummins: I second the amendment. electricity by means of an interconnector, whether ownership of the interconnector will Mr. Roche: I appreciate the Senator’s argu- be vested in the undertaker concerned or not”. ments on the issue of thresholds but I think it is unwise at the outset of a new consent process to Amendment agreed to. lower the thresholds down to the extent he pro- posed. For example, to take the thresholds for Amendment No. 45 not moved. windfarms down from 50 to ten would cause difficulties. Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 46: I have given consideration to these amend- In page 33, line 38, to delete “and” and sub- ments but on reflection I must conclude that the stitute “or”. proposed thresholds are wise and prudent. We do not wish the new consent process to be over- This is a technical amendment which I consider whelmed with relatively small-scale projects, even would improve the drafting of the Bill. Perhaps though, as the Senator has indicated, they may be the Minister will take it on board. of importance locally. They should still be dealt with through the planning process. Mr. Cummins: I second the amendment. The ElA thresholds used in the text as the general threshold appear to be the most appro- Mr. Roche: In a sense, events have caught up priate to ensure the process is used exclusively for with us. We have actually deleted the relevant large-scale strategic infrastructure development. section of the text to which the amendment If we go below that level we will leave ourselves applies. Obviously I cannot accept an amendment open to all sorts of ambiguity. However, once the to deleted text. I am not being unkind. Disposed system has been in operation for some time, we as I may have been to accept it, the relevant text could well reflect on the experience and see if it no longer forms part of the Bill. is necessary to review the thresholds. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. I regret I cannot accept the amendments, although I did give them a great deal of consider- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 47 ation because the arguments put forward by is in the name of Senator Bannon. Amendments Senator Bannon were cogent. I hope he will Nos. 48 to 50, inclusive, are related and may be agree, notwithstanding the good intentions of his discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed. amendments, that accepting his amendment could result in overloading the system at an early Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 47: stage, in addition to causing a great deal of unnecessary controversy around what is intended In page 34, line 25, to delete “50” and substi- to deal with bottlenecks in strategic infra- tute “10”. structure. This amendment relates to the size of windfarms. Question, “That the words proposed to be When I discussed this matter in detail on Com- deleted stand”, put and declared carried. mittee Stage last week the Minister indicated he would give some consideration to a reduction in Amendment declared lost. the size of the windfarm. Perhaps he will give an update on his position. Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 48: 1239 Planning and Development 16 May 2006. (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 1240

[Mr. Bannon.] (b) in determining the appeal, act as In page 35, line 11, to delete “20” and substi- expeditiously as possible consistent with the tute “10”. administration of justice.”.

Mr. Cummins: I second the amendment. Amendment agreed to.

Amendment put and declared lost. Government amendment No. 53: In page 67, line 19, to delete “Where, as a Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 49: result of the transfer of functions under In page 36, line 29, to delete “30” and substi- section” and substitute “(1) Where, as a result tute “15”. of the transfer of functions under section”.

Mr. Cummins: I second the amendment. Amendment agreed to.

Amendment put and declared lost. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 54 and 55 are related and both may be discussed Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 50: together by agreement.

In page 36, line 31, to delete “10” and substi- Government amendment No. 54: tute “5”. In page 78, lines 31 and 32, to delete “Envi- ronment and Local Government” and substi- Mr. Cummins: I second the amendment. tute “Environment, Heritage and Local Government”. Amendment put and declared lost.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. Mr. Roche: My amendment is in response to a 51, 52, 58 and 59 are related and may be discussed proposal made by Senator Bannon. I did not together by agreement. accept his amendment on Committee Stage on the basis that the functions in question are, Government amendment No. 51: rightly, a matter for the board. It would not be appropriate, therefore, to include a reference to In page 44, to delete lines 4 to 7 and substi- both the Minister for Environment, Heritage and tute “be taken to the Supreme Court.”. Local Government and the board. However, on further consideration, I have taken on board the Mr. Roche: In responding to two Opposition Senator’s point about the word “Heritage”. I amendments on Committee Stage, I agreed to have, therefore, inserted the word, as he sug- give consideration, in consultation with the gested on Committee Stage. Parliamentary Counsel, to the clarification of the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court and its ability Mr. Brady: The House will be safe. to make orders when it determines a point of law arising from a judicial review. I have taken the Mr. Bannon: I am pleased the Minister has comments made on board and hope Senators will taken on board my amendment because the word support this amendment, which will have the “Heritage” had been omitted in the Minister’s same effect as the proposed amendment, albeit title. Several departmental applications forms, in a slightly different format. I am conceding the which do not include the word “Heritage”, are principle but amending the wording on the advice still in circulation. Our heritage is an important of the Parliamentary Counsel. part of the environment and the Minister is doing a great deal in this area. It should, therefore, Amendment agreed to. receive due recognition. The amendment was included to update references to the Minister’s Government amendment No. 52: title and to give acknowledgement and recognit- ion to his portfolio. In page 44, to delete lines 27 to 31 and substi- tute the following: Amendment agreed to. “(10) On an appeal from a determination of the Court in respect of an application referred An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 55 to in subsection (9), the Supreme Court shall— is being discussed with amendment No. 54. Is the Minister accepting it? (a) have jurisdiction to determine only the point of law certified by the Court under sub- Mr. Roche: The title is being corrected. section (6) (and to make only such order in the proceedings as follows from such Mr. Bannon: The amendment updates the ref- determination), and erence to the Minister. 1241 Planning and Development 16 May 2006. (Strategic Infrastructure) Bill 2006 1242

Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 55: Mr. Roche: I will make the change in the Da´il. In page 78, line 33, after “as” to insert the Amendment agreed to. following “references to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 56 ment, and”. is consequential on amendment No. 57 and both may be discussed together by agreement. Mr. Cummins: I second the amendment. Mr. Bannon: I move amendment No. 56: An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is the amendment agreed to? Agreed. In page 79, line 50, after “be,” to insert “either”. Mr. Roche: I am sorry, I am being overly This is a technical amendment. The Minister indi- generous. cated on Committee Stage he would take it on board for Report Stage. Amendment No. 57 is Mr. Bannon: The amendment is agreed. also technical. The Minister promised to examine Mr. Roche: Amendment No. 54 is being made it before Report Stage and he indicated that he instead of amendment No. 55. would accept it and take it on board.

Mr. Bannon: Amendment No. 55 updates the Mr. Cummins: I second the amendment. reference to the Minister’s title. Mr. Roche: The amendments propose that the Mr. Roche: I am accepting in amendment No. eight-week period for making an application for 54 what the Minister intended in amendment No. leave to apply for a judicial review should begin 55. It is a moral victory for the Senator. on the date of the making of the railway order or the date on which a copy of the relevant extracts An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 54 from the railway order and the plan referred to and 55 are, therefore, agreed to. therein are served on every, if any, occupier and every, if any, owner of the land. I do not propose Mr. Roche: No. Amendment No. 54 is being to accept the amendments. The board must publi- made instead of amendment No. 55. cise the making of a railway order as early as pos- sible following the decision and that will facilitate An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 55 extensive notification of the making of the order. was not objected to and it was agreed by the As a consequence, I consider it inappropriate that House. the eight-week period should begin on the date of the making of the order. It is also critical that Mr. Bannon: My amendment updates the refer- any challenges should be taken as quickly as pos- ence and inserts the word “Heritage”. sible. I cannot extend the time limit potentially indefinitely and that would be an unforeseen con- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: There was no objec- sequence of the Senator’s proposals. His amend- tion to amendment No. 55. ments could also introduce a degree of confusion into the timeframe for the start of a legal chal- Mr. Roche: On Committee Stage, I stated the reference in Senator Bannon’s amendment to lenge. We do not want to create another oppor- both the Minister and the board was inap- tunity for legal challenges. For those reasons, I propriate. I, therefore, tabled amendment No. 54. cannot accept these amendments, but I did con- Senator Bannon proposes the insertion of the sider the points made by the Senator. word “Heritage” in page 78, line 33, whereas the appropriate change should be made in page 78, Mr. Bannon: We had a debate on clarity the lines 31 and 32. It is more appropriate to make last day. I felt that the eight week timeframe the amendment in these lines. should not start until the notice is served. The date would be clearly marked on the notice. The An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The record of the Minister said that he would look into it and get House will show that amendments Nos. 54 and 55 back to me when he discussed it with his officials. have been agreed to. Amendment No. 55 can be I still believe that the eight week period should deleted in the Da´il. not start until the notice is served.

Mr. Bannon: The amendment provides for the Amendment put and declared lost. updating of the Minister’s title. Amendment No. 57 not moved. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The record of the House will show there was no objection. Government amendment No. 58: 1243 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: 16 May 2006. Second Stage (Resumed) 1244

In page 81, to delete lines 40 to 43 and substi- gas pipeline, including the development of spurs tute “appeal should be taken to the Supreme to the towns and villages that have not been con- Court.”. nected. Natural gas is a clean form of energy and is important to the development of our towns and Amendment agreed to. villages, especially in the midlands. We are starved of different types of energy and we must Government amendment No. 59: rely on electricity. Other forms of energy will make us more competitive. Wind energy is pro- In page 82, to delete lines 8 to 12 and substi- vided for in the Bill. I had a number of amend- tute the following: ments to that particular section, but unfortunately “(11) On an appeal from a determination of they were not accepted. However, we will revisit the Court in respect of an application referred this Bill in three years. The Government is to in subsection (10), the Supreme Court encouraging people to develop off-farm shall— enterprises and many farmers will chose to provide other forms of energy. (a) have jurisdiction to determine only the We support this Bill and we wish it a speedy point of law certified by the Court under sub- passage through the Oireachtas. I thank the Mini- section (7) (and to make only such order in the ster for taking on board many amendments from proceedings as follows from such this side of the House. This will improve the Act determination), and when it becomes law. However, much needs to (b) in determining the appeal, act as be done outside the Houses. There also needs to expeditiously as possible consistent with the be judicial reforms and we will need greater administration of justice.”. resources. The Government must also change its attitude in trying to bring about balanced regional development. I highlighted the shortfall in spend- Amendment agreed to. ing in the BMW region and this needs to be examined quickly. There are several major tourist Bill, as amended, received for final con- developments in the midlands and in the west of sideration. Ireland, but they have been held up for quite a while by planning problems. This Bill will allow Question proposed: “That the Bill do now these projects to be fast-tracked and that is very pass.” welcome. We all want to see Ireland develop and become a proud part of Europe from a tourism, Minister for the Environment, Heritage and agricultural and industrial perspective. Local Government (Mr. Roche): We all agree that Ireland needs a new and improved infra- Mr. Brady: I thank the Minister and his officials structure across a number of areas, for reasons and commend them on the progressive stance we have all outlined in this House. We need to taken on this Bill. This is one of the most tackle bottlenecks in our economy, to enhance important Bills for the future of the country as our effectiveness and to create infrastructure we are economically in the position to plan ahead where it is needed. for these developments. I look forward to dis- I thank Senator Bannon in particular for his cussing aspects of this Bill with Senator Bannon. contributions, but I thank all Members who have contributed throughout this lengthy debate. We Question put and agreed to. have taken very important steps in this Bill. The Government is committed to the continued exist- Sitting suspended at 4.50 p.m. and resumed at ence and extension of an efficient and fully demo- 5.30 p.m. cratic participative planning process. The Bill, as it now stands, reflects that commitment. It is a Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: Second Stage crucial development in our delivery of modern, (Resumed). quality infrastructure, but it does so in a way that is balanced as it will involve the local authorities. Question again proposed: “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.” Mr. Bannon: I thank the Minister and other Members who contributed to the process. I also Mr. Cummins: Gardaı´ and local authorities are thank the departmental staff for enduring this aware of a number of accident blackspots, the long and often tedious debate. elimination of which should be of paramount There is much to be welcomed in the Bill. It importance. We are making some progress in this will fast-track much development which is needed area but more needs to be done. How often do for the improvement of the country’s infrastruc- we learn from news bulletins that people have ture. The crucial projects are those related to been killed on roads on which fatal accidents pre- transport, the development of our harbours, of viously occurred? Regardless of whether the the electricity network and the extension of the blackspots are the responsibility of the National 1245 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: 16 May 2006. Second Stage (Resumed) 1246

Roads Authority or local authorities, money predecessors on their efforts, which, for whatever should not be a factor in their elimination. reason, did not work. It is appalling that the Rules of the Road book- The issues of what to do with young people and let has not been updated in the past ten years. waiting lists for driving tests have been the sub- The failure to update it reflects the complacent ject of extensive debate. There is a year-long attitude taken on this issue. waiting list for driving tests. People must pass a With regard to Northern Ireland vehicles driv- theory test before they can apply for a provisional ing at speed in this jurisdiction, it is time that dis- licence. With that provisional licence they can cussions are held with Northern Ireland officials drive for two years with an “L” plate and then sit to introduce an all-Ireland policy on road safety their driving tests. Like everybody else here I and ensure that penalty points apply in both juris- have been told stories about people who are dictions. This common sense approach should be involved in car accidents on the morning of their progressed at every possible level. driving tests, fail their tests and drive home, still Drink driving is a major cause of road acci- on their provisional licences. That is no longer dents. Last year, Garda figures revealed a 30% acceptable. We must do something that will increase in the number of people convicted of impact on those people. If they do not pass their drink driving. The culture of drink driving must driving tests a restriction must be put on their change. We have heard a lot about random driving. Those who pass their tests should be sub- breath testing, which I believe is favoured by the ject to restrictions for the first year. Some young vast majority of people in this country. However, drivers have monitors on the speedometers of Fine Gael obtained information from the Depart- their cars and agree with insurance companies to ment of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which drive below a certain speed in exchange for a reveals that only 64 Garda stations have intoxili- special insurance rate. Such speed monitors sers, one fifth of gardaı´ are trained to use road- should be used. An RTE Radio 1 programme side breathalysers and even fewer can use the evi- referred to a device fitted to cars in Sweden dential breathalyser equipment based in Garda which reduces one’s speed depending on weather conditions. It reminded me of Senator O’Toole’s stations. Under these circumstances, can the comment last week that in France the speed signs Government really claim to be serious about carry two different limits, one for fine weather road safety? and a lower speed for wet weather. These issues are indicative of what the former Travelling between Sligo and Dublin, as I do chairman of the National Safety Council claimed two or three times a week, I am always astonished for years, namely that there is no joined up think- by the number of young drivers who pass me in ing among Departments. I hope that will change clapped-out, souped-up cars, generally with regis- because we will go nowhere otherwise. The trations from the 1980s. While I am driving at 60 Garda claims that since the introduction of the mph they overtake me doing 70 or 80 mph. I new penalty points scheme, 350 people per day immediately slow down because if they have a have received penalty points. Enforcement is the blow-out I will be involved in the accident. They key to any successful strategy and we must learn overtake on continuous white lines on the brow from best practice in places such as Victoria and of a hill. I often yearn to be a garda with a blue other Australian states, otherwise we will con- light in order to be able to chase some of those tinue to see carnage on our roads until we have youngsters. I hate to think where they might end proper enforcement. up. On my stretch of road I meet them all the time. The presence of a Garda car, even if the Ms Feeney: I welcome the Minister of State at gardaı´ are only sitting in it, can be a deterrent the Department of Transport, Deputy Gallagher, and slow people down. It slows me down. I was back to the House. I am delighted to have an interested to note last week an increase of 32% opportunity to speak on the Road Safety Auth- in general accidents, 350 people per day getting ority Bill 2004, formerly the Driver Testing and penalty points and an increase in drink driving Standards Authority Bill. Recently, there has offences and in the offence of driving without tax been a lot of discussion in the media about the or insurance. numbers of fatalities on our roads, particularly I want to talk about a recent inquest into a fatal those involving young people. The issue has also accident in which the jury recommended a rider been debated on a number of occasions in this to existing legislation. I raise it here because there House, yet fatalities continue to occur. have been two fatalities in my constituency over I welcome the appointment of Mr. Gay Byrne the last few months. I know at first hand how dis- as chairman of the road safety authority because, traught were the families of those two young men if anybody can do anything, it is Uncle Gaybo. in their prime who were killed one night in a Set a busy man or woman a task and it will be motor accident. The rider proposed mandatory done. Not a man to hang around, he intends to testing for all drugs, including alcohol, for any- quit his position if he does not see results. He set body involved in a road traffic accident, irrespec- out his stall and I wish him well. I commend his tive of whether they are in possession of alcohol 1247 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: 16 May 2006. Second Stage (Resumed) 1248

[Ms Feeney.] identification equipment. It costs money but I or drugs. That would be a wonderful idea and, if have seen it work. There are only two cameras in implemented, would result in fewer people get- Dublin. If we invested in this equipment, we ting into their car with one or two drinks or after would not need gardaı´ to look at the cameras smoking a joint or two. Although they might not because they identify speeding drivers automati- feel it impairs their judgment, it does. It would cally and immediately. If there were ten or 20 of make younger people in particular more respon- these cameras on the road from Galway to sible. In rural Ireland, for example in west and Dublin, they would identify, without anyone hav- south County Sligo and north County Leitrim, ing to look at them, whether one was driving too away from the bigger towns, youngsters drive quickly between one camera and the next. It is after taking a few drinks. This cannot be allowed almost magical what we can do with technology. to continue. Too many families wake on a Satur- We do not have to invent new ways of doing day or Sunday morning to the horrific news that things — we can look at what other countries one of their children has been involved in a have done. I was in Finland last week and learned fatality. about technology that must be installed in the I will briefly refer to section 22 of the Bill, cars of those found guilty of a drink driving which restricts Members of both Houses and local offence. Senator Feeney touched upon this in authorities from membership of the board. While respect of Sweden. One must blow into a unit I can understand why Members of the Oireachtas before one starts one’s car. It represents further are restricted, the presence of a Member from investment in technology. If one is fined for either House would make a difference. Members accumulating penalty points in Finland, one is of local authorities should not be restricted. Our fined a percentage of one’s income. The week local councillors come to me and tell me the con- before I visited, a very wealthy and successful cerns of the people. That is where I heard about businessman had been caught speeding on his the rider to the legislation that is in place. We motorbike and was fined \200,000. Somebody should look to the National Youth Council of else might only be fined \200. This would Ireland or organisations such as Youthreach and straighten one’s mind out. In Dubai I noted sirens have young people on that authority because they on taxis — maybe they were on other vehicles are the people who will bring the message home also — that automatically sounded if one to their peers. There is no point in packing the exceeded the speed limit. Senator Cummins men- authority with people who are not out there on tioned the enforcement of penalty points north the ground. If local councillors and young people and south of the Border. They should be enforced are eliminated, 50% of people are immediately throughout Europe and not just on this island. cut off. When we come to Committee Stage I This matter is typical of one regarding which all- would like to see an amendment to address that. island co-operation could succeed. Having spoken to driving school instructors, I I agree with the Senators who stated Gay know they want legislation. It is time for regu- Byrne was an inspired choice. He is great and has lation. All professions are regulated and this pro- threatened to resign if he does not get his way. fession sets up young people to get behind the He will not have the patience of Eddie Shaw. wheel of a car. There should be tests for driving Eddie Shaw was marvellous at what he did — he instructors and for the testers. Both trainees and hammered and shouted but eventually had to trainers should be tested at the same level and give up when it did not work. Gay Byrne will suc- time. ceed and will step down, as he has threatened, if the Government does not solve the problems Mr. Quinn: I would like to share my time with associated with road safety. It is in its power to Senator Ross, who will take four minutes while I do so and the citizens know it is its responsibility. take six. I welcome the Minister. Although I mis- With sufficient investment in technology, it can sed the debate last week I want to make some enforce the law as it stands. All the other pro- points. I welcome the Bill with some reservations. posals mentioned, including random breath test- It is a great idea to make one authority respon- ing, must also be implemented. Investment in sible for driving tests, schools and instructors but technology is necessary so the law can be the responsibility rests with the Government. enforced to the point where we, the citizens, will However, the prime responsibility for good driv- obey it. ing lies with drivers. We have learned that this cannot be achieved without enforcement and that Mr. Ross: I thank Senator Quinn for sharing is the responsibility of Government. It is good histimewithme. value for money to invest in enforcement. Some It is somewhat dangerous for us all to stand time ago I produced figures from the US and around and preach about bad driving because I elsewhere showing that every dollar invested in do not believe there is anyone in this Chamber enforcing safe driving saves the government large who is not a sinner in one way or another. I have sums of money. I will speak about one potential accumulated penalty points myself as a result of target for investment, namely, licence plate some minor speeding offences. While I believe it 1249 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: 16 May 2006. Second Stage (Resumed) 1250 is absolutely essential that restrictive measures be like so many others, is likely to become not just introduced and that penalty points are a neces- a creature of the Government but also a creature sary and sensible way of doing so, we must be of a political party. The Bill represents an unfor- wary of sitting in judgment over those we say are tunate blueprint in this regard. However, this may bad drivers. Many of us are probably pretty bad not be the case regarding Gay Byrne. drivers ourselves and I certainly confess to being I do not know whether it is a good idea to one. One of the reasons for bad driving is that amalgamate these agencies or what is going on once one has passed the driving test at 17, there behind the scenes but it strikes me as particularly is absolutely no compulsion on one to keep up to regrettable that no opportunity was taken to date with any of the rules of the road. I and relieve the Minister of some of his extraordinary others, if we are honest, will confess that we power of political interference in this issue. There sometimes see signs at the side of the road and is not a paragraph in the Bill that does not men- do not know what they mean because we have tion the Minister. Even the plans the authority not read the up-to-date rules of the road. Apart makes must be subject to the consent of the Mini- from fulfilling certain moral and legal obligations, ster. Why the hell should they? Why can the we have no obligation to read the rules of the board not comprise people of undoubted abilities road. and talents who would be given a budget and told There is a case for testing people regularly as to get on with it? In every paragraph, the Bill the time of their driving tests becomes more dis- states that the appointees must seek political tant. It is a bit absurd to say people are competent approval. Road safety should not be subject to to drive in modern conditions when they passed day to day political approval. There is a Govern- a test 60 years ago. This is not ageism but a ment policy on road safety but the Government matter of experience in that one may have passed should not be micro-managing road safety down one’s test in road conditions that were completely to the last sign, budget and penny. and utterly different from those of today. Every- My proposal regarding political interference body knows people travel at a much faster speed, should also extend to the appointment of chief executive. Why the hell should the Minister, once that traffic congestion is much worse and that the he has appointed the board, also rules of the road are different. The Minister 6 o’clock have to consent to the appointment should consider some way of re-testing drivers of the chief executive, which who passed their tests a very long time ago. I do amounts to the same thing? The chief executive not believe I would pass one if I were asked to is possibly being chosen for his ability regarding do so today. I do not believe many others would road safety but also because of his political do so either, but that does not mean I will volun- acceptability. Road safety, an issue of such teer for a test — I am afraid I am not as noble as importance, is now right in the middle of the that. The NCTs would be more appropriate to party political arena. people than cars and driving tests should be Let me refer to another extraordinary clause almost as frequent. that is included in all Bills such as this. All board Several Senators referred to board member- members must make declarations of interest, a ship. I am disappointed in this Bill because it fol- pattern followed in most of these Bills. I hope lows the normal pattern established by Govern- the Minister does not reply by stating that this is ments in respect of board membership. The 11 standard. That would not be an acceptable reply. members of the board of the authority are all pol- Declarations of interest are made only to the itical appointees. board and no member of the public can know what these are. Mr. U. Burke: Hear, hear. Mr. Dardis: Like Independent Newspapers. Mr. Ross: If the Minister tells me not to worry and states the members will all be appointed Mr. Ross: Why are such declarations not made because they know a lot about road safety and in the same way Members of the Oireachtas transport, I will just tell him I do not believe him declare interests, available to the public? Why is — that is no reflection on him. The experience of there one law for political favourites and another those of us in politics and others is that politicians for Members of the Oireachtas? These declar- appoint their friends and relations to boards, ations should be utterly transparent. even to the boards of the most vital, sensitive State agencies and semi-State bodies. That is Mr. Dardis: Not for the first time, Senator Ross unfortunately true and it is treating the boards has drawn himself up to his full 5 ft 7 in. of indig- with utter contempt. It is also treating the issues nation and is completely wrong. involved — in this case, road safety — with utter contempt. This would have been an appropriate Mr. U. Burke: Not totally. time to establish a board that is not appointed exclusively by the Minister, and preferably not Mr. Dardis: The chairperson of the board is appointed by him all. The road safety authority, Mr. Gay Byrne, whom we all know to be an esti- 1251 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: 16 May 2006. Second Stage (Resumed) 1252

[Mr. Dardis.] Mr. Ross: Senator Dardis is a nominee of the mable man, well capable of doing this job. Other Taoiseach. He got in through the back door but members include Ms A´ ine Cornally, director of he hopes local public representatives might be his customer support services, Bank of Ireland; an constituents in the future. employee of a firm of solicitors, a former Sec- retary General at the Department of Enterprise, Mr. Dardis: Senator Ross stated that road Trade and Employment; an employee of Dublin safety is not a matter for political approval. The Institute of Technology; and a RoSPA motor- Minister will not be involved in approving road cycle inspector. safety issues. Members of the Joint Committee on European Mr. Ross: They are all political appointees. The Affairs visited Tallinn in Estonia recently. If one fact that they have other qualifications is camou- has an accident in Estonia and has alcohol in flage and makes no difference. Members of the one’s system, one is presumed to be culpable. Progressive Democrats are the worst offenders That is the way it should be. for this behaviour and have their snouts in the The State can improve signs in Ireland. Direc- trough to the same extent as Fianna Fa´il. tional signs have improved but, as representatives from Waterford will agree, one sees signs placed Acting Chairman (Dr. Henry): Senator Ross, beyond the junction on the N7. How do engineers please desist. We have heard your contribution. manage to do this? The driver is past the junction Allow Senator Dardis to continue without when he or she sees the sign. In that case, he or interruption. she stops and reverses on the motorway, which is a lethal manoeuvre. Members of local authorities Mr. Dardis: I thank the Acting Chairman for frequently make the same point. her protection. I tend to provoke the worst in Roadworks signs are erected but not removed Senator Ross. Other members include the former after roadworks have been completed. As a county manager of Westmeath County Council; a result, drivers do not slow down when they see rally driver; the general manager at Cork Univer- these signs because they are used to passing them sity Hospital; and a former assistant director when work is no longer taking place. Oil spillage general of FA´ S. Surely all of these people are signs are erected throughout the country yet I well qualified. The Minister will take political have only seen an oil spillage on one occasion. responsibility if things go wrong. The people responsible for discredited signs should get their act together, a matter that is Mr. Ross: If that is the case, why have the within the remit of the State. party’s friends been appointed? Differing speed limits are in effect in wet and Mr. U. Burke: Why is Mr. Byrne taking dry conditions in France. Speed limits here are responsibility? discredited. A dual carriageway leading to New- bridge was the national primary route but since Mr. Dardis: It is a feature of our democratic the motorway was built it has become a national system that politicians take responsibility when secondary route and a speed limit of 80 km/h things go wrong. applies. Roads where the speed limit should be no higher than 80 km/h have limits of 100 km/h. Mr. Ross: As the Progressive Democrats do in Although a national system is understandable, all cases. some flexibility must be allowed. We have discussed the contributory factors to Mr. Dardis: Those who have been appointed to accidents. We must be far more rigorous on the the board will do the job very well. I endorse standard of driving required. Over the years we Senator Feeney’s point about excluding public have been casual but there are now far more representatives. Two Bills were amended, includ- people driving powerful cars that can travel at ing one while Deputy Michael D. Higgins was high speed. Reference has been made to vehicle Minister, to allow local public representatives to quality and we are not as rigorous as we should be included on such boards. They should not be be with regard to the capacity of the vehicle to excluded, although Members of the Oireachtas stop within a certain limit. should be. Local public representatives are well I have noticed a proliferation of cars with “for qualified—— sale” signs on the side of the road. It is no longer politically correct to use the term “non-national” Mr. Ross: Because they are the Senator’s con- but people coming into the country buy such cars stituents. and do not demand any documents. They are driving in uninsured and untaxed vehicles. This Mr. Dardis: They are not. Senator Ross is trend, which seems to be increasing, must be wrong again. examined. 1253 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: 16 May 2006. Second Stage (Resumed) 1254

People must take responsibility because the Mr. U. Burke: He is a Government appointee State cannot be a nanny state. If one is afraid of to a very important body. By making such a state- being caught, one will slow down. Over the past ment, he knowingly criticised Members of the fortnight cars seem to have slowed down, partic- Oireachtas on national television. I concur with ularly on the motorway at Portlaoise. Fewer cars what Senator Ross said that this person, like overtake when one is travelling at 120 km/h. This many others, is a political appointee to that is due to the increased visibility of the Garda agency. Sı´ocha´na and the fear of being caught. Traffic calming is a major deterrent and should Acting Chairman: Senator Burke has made his be examined in urban areas. One will not travel point very well. Perhaps he would move on. over speed ramps because of the consequences Mr. U. Burke: I will move on but I ask the for one’s car. Much has been done, particularly in Minister of State to talk to the chairperson and Dublin city, but more must be done in rural request him to reconsider the statement he made towns, particularly around schools. I understand because he branded Members of both Houses in why it cannot happen on national primary routes such a way. That is not acceptable for a person where heavy volumes of traffic use the road. I who is looking for goodwill and co-operation wish Mr. Byrne and the authority well. I hope it from the Houses of the Oireachtas and other will have a positive effect. I know the authority bodies which have an interest in this issue. will be vocal and will have no difficulty telling the Minister where to get off, if this proves necessary. Acting Chairman: I ask for Senator Burke’s co-operation. Mr. U. Burke: I welcome the Minister of State. As legislation passes through the House it is Mr. U. Burke: There are known blackspots important that the Government receives co-oper- throughout the country. Anybody who ever drove ation across the political divide on an issue such from Dublin to Galway will remember the 25 as this. Mr. Gay Byrne was interviewed by his crosses on the side of the road between Ballin- successor on the “Late Late Show” on Friday asloe and Loughrea where 25 deaths occurred. night and the show was repeated last night; per- Tragically, despite numerous deputations to the haps the Minister of State watched it. I would National Roads Authority, it failed to respond to strongly disagree that he was an inspired choice the wishes of the people that something be done to lead this authority. It was a public relations as a matter of urgency. Every excuse in the book stunt on the part of the Minister to appoint some- was given. I drove that route twice a day for 25 one whose record of arrogance we well appreci- years and on many occasions, I witnessed a ate from his pronouncements on “the box” on number of horrific accidents. As a response to the numerous occasions and from his failure to accept request of the people, the NRA eventually criticism at any time of himself or his views. He acquired some land to realign part of the N6 made a statement the other night that a raft of route. As it was so slow in going ahead with the legislation must be introduced before the summer work, many deaths occurred in the interim. That recess, of which this Bill is part. I am not too sure land was supposed to have been used to bypass this particular treacherous blockspot but, thank- if he has read all the promises made since 1998 fully, a new road has been proposed from Ballin- on legislation which have all been broken. He asloe to Oranmore which will travel north of the said he would walk within one year so I ask him N6. This is another example of the number of to look at the 15 promises made, almost all of road deaths which must occur to get agencies to which have been reneged on or which have not respond. been followed through. Some 15 measures were promised by the I would like an apology from that person who Government but only three have been said, in respect of legislation being brought implemented, including the increase in the before the Houses of the Oireachtas, that he number of penalty point offences and the breath hoped the other crowd would not make a political testing. The chairman of the new authority said football out of it. That is a dismissive statement he got a commitment from senior Garda auth- and is arrogance beyond belief. For the success of orities that 60 gardaı´ out of every Garda class his chairmanship, he should withdraw that state- would be assigned to road safety. Can the Mini- ment and apologise to Members of both Houses ster of State confirm that the Government has who may have an opinion to offer other than his agreed to this or is it a case of the chairman going own or who may wish to contribute in some way on a solo run on this issue? If it is, it is a bit early to the legislation before the Houses. for him to be going on a solo run. The Minister of State should check the record with RTE but Acting Chairman: Senator Burke has made his the chairman said he obtained a promise from the point. The person cannot defend himself in this Garda Commissioner that 60 gardaı´ out of every House. Garda class for the next number of years would 1255 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: 16 May 2006. Second Stage (Resumed) 1256

[Mr. U. Burke.] people drive cars and trucks with one hand on be assigned to the traffic corps, which would be the steering wheel and a mobile telephone in the very welcome. However, when put in the context other. This continues, regardless of the advertis- of the history of the assignment of Garda person- ing and warnings issued by the Department. That nel to this division, it must be corrected or con- is not acceptable. People should act responsibly firmed that this is Government policy. but unfortunately do not do so. Many Senators said one cannot teach an old Maybe as a pioneer I should not comment on dog new tricks. It is of paramount importance drink driving because people criticise me for that schools are used to change the mindset of knocking drink drivers but nobody should drive potential drivers and to teach about road safety when under the influence of alcohol. Garda in general. Co-operation between the Depart- records show an increase in the numbers caught ments of Transport and Education and Science is drink driving in recent months, due to good important so as to introduce a slot, whether detective work and having more gardaı´ on the weekly or otherwise, into the school timetable to beat. The Government and the Minister for educate young people about road safety. Hope- Justice, Equality and Law Reform deserve credit fully, young people’s understanding of road safety for ensuring there are more gardaı´ in the traffic will be visible at a later stage. corps. All this legislation will be judged on whether it Drivers fear getting penalty points. Unfortu- is a response to the terrible carnage on the roads nately, however, there are cases of people who and it will mean nothing if it does not result in a come from outside the 26 counties who get away reduction in the number of road deaths. Unfortu- with dangerous driving. The story goes that Irish nately for many families, it is a question of people who are caught give the names and whether the deaths of so many will be seen as the addresses of friends from the North. That prob- catalyst for success in eliminating the carnage on lem, however, is being tackled and hopefully our roads. people coming into this country will observe the speed limits here or, if not, receive penalty points Mr. Moylan: I welcome the Minister of State on their licences. and his officials to the House. The Road Safety At weekends, when traffic is heavy with people Authority Bill is welcome and has the broad sup- driving to matches or whatever, it is unreasonable port of the House. The greatest problem on the to have a full lane dedicated to buses as there are roads is speed. While it would help for Govern- few buses on the road. That should change — ment to reduce speed to a maximum of 50 km/h some bus lanes are open at weekends but most that is not possible because people must get from are not. A to B, and go to work. We have improved the I notice many people driving left-hand drive standard of the roads and our speed limits match cars. They come here to work and are welcome. the norm in Europe but unfortunately many When they earn some money it seems they can people do not observe them. bring in old cars from their own countries, which One sees people drive at alarming speeds on are left-hand drive. Recently, I drove behind a the road from the west or the midlands to Dublin person in one of these cars in a small town. The but because there is a well-publicised speed cam- driver tried four or five times to pass the van in era at the end of the motorway in Lucan, these front of him. In order to see the oncoming traffic drivers slow to 80 km/h. It is not a problem to he had to put the front of his car out on the road slow to that speed, even in heavy traffic. Maybe but each time had to pull back because traffic was there should be more portable cameras. Placing coming against him. The consequences of pulling camera bases, even without live cameras, at black out in that way can be serious as recent accidents, spots would immediately improve road safety. in which carloads of people have been killed, People blame drivers with provisional licences show. but many provisional licence holders are careful We welcome the increased number of gardaı´ and safe drivers. Blaming them is often an easy but it is wasteful for the garda who has caught way out. People complain about the numbers someone breaking the law to have to attend in holding provisional licences but this is a wealthy court because often the solicitor will seek and be country. A few years ago no one needed a pro- granted an adjournment. A chief superintendent visional licence, unless for a bicycle, because or sergeant should be able to go into court on people could not afford to buy cars. Today, behalf of that garda and look after the case. One people have the money to buy cars and therefore sees many gardaı´ in the courts. We must deal with need provisional licences. There may be a back- that problem. log in the driver testing centres but provisional I wish Gay Byrne and the road safety authority licence holders are not the real problem. well. They will do a good job. No matter who was The use of mobile telephones in cars is also appointed, people would shout that he or she was raised as a road safety issue. While people have the wrong person. He and the authority need a hands-free mobile telephones in their cars, many chance to prove themselves, as does the Minister 1257 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: 16 May 2006. Second Stage (Resumed) 1258 of State in his new role. There has been some By some miracle I have not yet acquired any improvement in road safety and we will soon penalty points although it may be tempting provi- see more. dence to admit it. The Government needs to have a coherent set of speed limits and this can only Mr. Norris: I, too, welcome the Minister of be achieved through a centralised body. It is not State to the House. I wish to make some com- appropriate for every local authority in the coun- ments on this Bill, which I welcome and I wish try to make its own decisions about roads that are the road safety authority success. There has not part of a national transport system. We are not been a glorious history of success in this area. The dealing with boreens anymore but with major Government has been confronted by the resig- national highways which should be dealt with in nation of Eddie Shaw who addressed the Joint a professional manner. Committee on Transport of which I was a Road humps are idiotic things which simply do member. He was fairly trenchant in his criticism not work. As was explained to me by a resident and he laid down a list of things he felt should be of an area where these things were put in, they done. I hope the Government will make available are supposed to stop kids speeding in what are to the incoming authority those recommendations called joyriding cars but these kids get an even of Mr. Eddie Shaw because they would be valu- greater thrill by driving at these humps and able. The Government should not discard the watching the effect on somebody else’s car. Some work already done by a very able and honour- salubrious areas of Dublin have nice, mild little able man. humps that one would hardly notice while in Unlike some of my colleagues here, I heartily other areas, such as Londonbridge Road, they are approve of the appointment of Gay Byrne. He is cliffs of brick which even if one drives at 10 km/h an ideal person because he is well known and well will do some damage to a car. This type of flagr- loved. He has a very keen and shrewd intelli- ant ignoring of the welfare of motorists can only gence. I worked with him on a few occasions in inculcate contempt. I ask for consistency and broadcasting. He is one of the most efficient coherence in this matter. people I know and a great disciplinarian. If he Even worse is the state of road surfaces. I have is set a task he will make it his business to get raised this matter in the House on a number of it done. occasions. I refer to the inappropriate road sur- face materials used by some county councils. I Acting Chairman: The Senator is saying nice have been asked not to name individuals and things about someone who cannot reply in this families in the House but the record will show House but I have had to stop people saying that I raised this matter both in the House and as unpleasant things so I cannot allow the Senator a matter on the Adjournment. I refer to the tragic to either praise or blame someone. case of a young girl who was driving carefully and with no drink taken. Her car suddenly hit a patch Mr. Norris: “The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on.” I cannot recall the verse of road. She lost control of the car which went but I understand the Chair’s admonishment and into a lorry coming in the opposite direction and the reason for it. she was killed. The road safety authority is to be welcomed. The tragic accident involving a school bus near The primary aim must be to make Irish road Trim was exactly the same. The road surface users respect the law. In order for that to happen, treatment was inappropriate. How many more we must give them laws they can respect because accidents of this kind will happen? Local auth- this is not the case at present. Many of the laws orities are once again letting down the general are a tissue of nonsense. Having centralised public. In some of these instances the local auth- responsibility for road safety, the Government orities were alerted but even after the accident should go further and centralise control of road did precious little. management as well. I am sure the Minister of Appropriate speed limits should be put in State may find it in his heart to at least secretly place. It should be possible to drive in safety over agree with me that there is a huge amount of those road humps at the maximum prescribed inconsistency regarding speed, for example. How speed. A vehicle should be able to cross those can anyone respect the speed limits? They are humps in safety at the maximum permitted speed, inconsistent and capricious and are governed by otherwise the whole thing is a nonsense. These local authorities. It is completely absurd that as a two terrible tragedies involved an individual motorway passes through different jurisdictions driver and a party of schoolchildren. There the speed limits change. We all know of instances should be some central authority to take where the gardaı´ literally lie in wait under a responsibility for these matters as has been done bridge in a place where the speed limit does not with regard to certain but limited aspects of road meet the circumstances of the roadway. This is safety in this Bill. We need to get road users to like shooting fish in a barrel. respect the rules of the road and the condition of 1259 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: 16 May 2006. Second Stage (Resumed) 1260

[Mr. Norris.] Mr. Finucane: I welcome the Minister of State the road. This can only be achieved by giving to the House. I have spoken on various issues them something to respect. related to road safety many times on the Order I will unburden myself of another grouse with of Business. There has been considerable lethargy which the Minister of State, other Members and in enforcing action to rectify the difficulties that members of staff may be familiar. If one turns left exist. It was a shocking indictment of the Govern- having exited by the back gate of Leinster House, ment when the previous chairman of the auth- one rapidly hits the junction of Clare Street, Mer- ority mentioned that he believed that more than rion Square and Merrion Street. This junction, 200 lives a year could have been saved if proper like many all over the city, has a yellow box. It is action has been taken. After nine years in pro- a common occurrence for a double-decker bus to cess, this legislation is better late than never. land in the middle of the box and stay there until However, it is only in the past year that I have the traffic light changes. Not one car can move as noticed a sharper focus on road safety and a con- a result. I ask the Minister of State to ask the sciousness of our responsibility to ensure it. Many police to check this junction at rush hour over a Members would make the point that road safety period of one week to see if I am correct and to is the responsibility of the individual motorist but do something about the situation. Driving should it is equally the responsibility of Government to be taught in schools as is the case in Germany. It provide the necessary framework to ensure should perhaps be a compulsory extra subject in people appreciate what is involved in road safety fifth or sixth year. They could be taught driving and that the necessary deterrents to penalise skills and respect for the road. motorists driving at speed, etc. are in place. The Minister of State is from County Donegal In every county, including my own, certain and he must feel keenly the carnage on the roads locations are noted as accident blackspots and in that county. There seems to be a constellation there have been fatalities. The road from of circumstances in these accidents. The victims Newcastle West to Foynes is a classic example, are very often young people and it happens on a on which there is a large volume of heavy trucks. Friday night and Saturday morning or Saturday I am sure the position is similar in other parts night and Sunday morning. There may be a few of the country. Following such road fatalities the drinks on board, too many people in a powerful council concerned tends to take remedial action car and it is in the early hours of the morning. by erecting red and white signs and making road This scenario is so often repeated as reported on markings. While all that is fine as a measure, I do the radio and in the newspapers. We know what not understand why the Department of the Envir- are the elements that contribute to major road onment, Heritage and Local Government does accidents and we should do something about not require local authorities to pinpoint the them. locations in a county, whether it is five, ten or 20, The proposal that members of the board where serious road accidents have occurred and should make a declaration to the board is very take proper remedial action to rectify the prob- closet-like, in my view. Why are they not a bit lems that exist at those locations. It does not take more open about it? We as Members of the a genius to work out that if remedial action is Oireachtas must make our declarations. I once taken to improve these locations, at least some- made a declaration which included a portfolio of thing may be done to reduce the number of acci- shares I had inherited from my aunt. The details dents that occur. appeared in the newspapers having been It is remarkable that the Minister, Deputy obtained under the Freedom of Information Act Cullen, said in May last year that the direction of and while it was reported that I was a decent fel- his policy in this area would be to reduce the low and a good legislator, the reporter asked number of people waiting to do the driving test. whether would one buy a share from me given all It is a sad commentary to think that in May of the crap I had in my portfolio. If I had to make a this year 10,000 more people were waiting to do declaration, why can members of the board not the driving test than in May last year. A total of be required to make a similar open and clear dec- 135,000 people are waiting to do the driving test laration? compared to 125,000 in May last year. The filling What is the logic in disbarring Members of the of nine driver testing positions was help up for Oireachtas or members of county councils from many years because sanction was not approved membership of the authority? I am not the for the posts. It is a shocking indictment of the biggest fan of county councils, as Members will Government that this number of people are wait- know, but if we are to continue to allow them to ing to do their driving test throughout the coun- have responsibility for certain areas of manage- try. The latest statistics show that in driving test ment in terms of roads and road safety, I do not centres the waiting time for a driving test has see why by being elected, we sometimes must be extended rather than reduced. penalised by being excluded from areas of It was regrettable that IMPACT, representing service. driving test instructors, recently pursued a mech- 1261 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: 16 May 2006. Second Stage (Resumed) 1262 anism to evade a position whereby the Minister issues such as this, which are pertinent to North sought to privatise the testing of 40,000 people and South, at meetings of the British-Irish Inter- waiting to do their driving test in order to reduce parliamentary Body. Motorists from the North the number on the waiting lists. I do not under- who travel South should be subject to the penalty stand the fears of driving test instructors because points system. That they are not must be galling their jobs are guaranteed. There is no threat to for motorists in Border counties such as the Mini- the jobs in the long term given the volume of road ster of State who lives in Donegal and motorists transport and the number of people on the wait- in Sligo, Monaghan and other counties where ing lists. They were rewarded with extra overtime there is a large volume of traffic to and from the to carry out additional driving tests. The action North. It must be upsetting for such motorists taken by the union in using the mechanism of the that they are obliged to be law abiding citizens partnership talks was wrong. It was able to refer and comply with the penalty points system to a relevant section used in the past to ensure its operating here, while motorists in the North can representatives could not be compelled to accept get away with not complying with it. That posi- the private contracting of driver testing. I said tion must be addressed and changed. Statistics on recently that I hope the latest partnership talks, penalty point offences last year show that 20% of which regrettably have taken political representa- them could not be proceeded with on the basis tives who have a great understanding of the that the offenders were from outside the Twenty- whole process out of the equation, do not a allow six counties and for other minor reasons. a similar situation to emerge. I read a recent Mr. Gay Byrne has been appointed to his new newspaper article which implied that the rep- position and I will mention him only once. He is resentatives had changed their attitude and that a national figure. I saw him on a television prog- there may be some movement. I hope there will ramme last week and did not like his attitude. He be positive movement, as it is important that we almost appeared to say that legislation will go reduce the number of people on the waiting lists through these Houses and everybody should sub- for driving tests and in that way reduce the scribe to it immediately, accept it lock, stock and number of motorists with a provisional driving barrel and not question or probe it. He said that licence. he hoped the other side would not object to it. The driving test was introduced in the early The other side does not object; it embraces any- 1960s. We cannot compare the number of cars on thing that happens in a positive fashion to our roads then with the number on them today. improve road safety. It is up to Members in this There is a driving test centre in my town of and the other House to seriously examine legis- Newcastle West and instructors in the driving test lation when introduced and to ensure that what schools bring provisional licence holders on the is embodied therein is compatible with what is routes taken by driving testers. In my estate many required outside these Houses. I wish Mr. Byrne learner drivers practise driving around a corner, well in his position as a supremo. He said that if which poses a hazard for the people living in the he does not get satisfaction he will walk away estate. The current driving test does not take from the job. account of the situation that exists in terms of Perhaps many positive strands are beginning to number of cars on our roads, driving on motor- come together in terms of road safety, especially ways, driving at night and so on. We need to if there is a degree of privatisation of driver test- examine the format of the driving test, make it a ing, if more speed cameras are erected and more little stiffer and ensure it conforms with the gardaı´ become involved in traffic corps activities. situation that pertains. If we can put all the pieces of the jigsaw in terms The position in regard to speed cameras is an of road safety together, of which there are many indictment of the Government. The small number components, we could succeed. of speed cameras in Dublin has been well publi- We have to cope with the new situation as cised. There is a promise to address that situation regards the rapidly expanding east European but we have to wait and see what will be done. population coming into the country. Is it right One feature of the penalty point system annoys that a person with a car only a few years old is and galls me and many others who often seem to subject to NCT testing? Is it right that a person be given penalty points for rather trivial offences. from an eastern European country can come in When I drive to Dublin from Limerick I, like with a very old car and not be subject to the same many, have to grin and bear it when I see motor- testing? It is obviously wrong. We are accustomed ists particularly with Northern or foreign regis- to driving on one side of the road while they are trations show me the two fingers when they zoom used to driving on the opposite side. We all know past while I am driving at the 120 km/h limit. the difficulties involved in trying to pull out from They know that the penalty points system that behind a truck and get sight of the correct dis- operates in the Twenty-six Counties does not tance in front of us. A new potential hazard to apply to the motorists from Northern Ireland, the emerge for many of these left-hand drive cars UK or eastern European countries. I have raised relates to the increased dangers in trying to over- 1263 Road Safety Authority Bill 2004: 16 May 2006. Second Stage (Resumed) 1264

[Mr. Finucane.] post. There was criticism of both him and take trucks. Regrettably, the fatality figures in members of the board, as political appointees. Of this regard demonstrate the hazards involved. course they were all appointed by the Minister. As regards road safety policy, the changed When one looks at the membership of the board, situation and environment, the eastern European however, one can see they are not political dimension etc. must be factored in so that we can appointees. The chairman and the members are see how we cope. There are even basic consider- appointed by the Minister, but not on the basis ations to be dealt with, for example, the road of politics. safety book, in which miles rather than kilometres I do not have much time, but I want to refer to are denominated, with the then Minister for the a few important points as regards the regulation Environment and Local Government, Deputy of driver instruction. The Bill tasks the authority Howlin, still being depicted ten years later. It with the regulation of driver instruction. This will does not take rocket science to appreciate that require those in the industry to meet predeter- this book must be brought up to date rapidly. If a mined standards which will not only cover their person goes into a shop in Limerick and is Polish, ability to drive but ensure that those meeting the Lithuanian, Latvian or whatever and wants to standards will have the necessary instructional seriously learn about the rules of the road, trans- skills to deliver the message to novice drivers. lations should be available in the appropriate lan- The registration process will benefit driving guage. Let us get on with it and put all the pieces instructors and people taking lessons will have of the jigsaw together. Ultimately the objective is greater confidence in the quality of the instruc- to stop all the casualties on Irish roads. We are tion being given, which will eventually lead to moving in the right direction but there is a good better and safer drivers on our roads. deal more to be done before we get matters right. The Government decided on 12 April 2006 to give priority to a new road safety Bill. I refer to Minister of State at the Department of Trans- this in the context of this debate because many port (Mr. Gallagher): I thank Senators for their Members have referred to random alcohol testing contributions to the debate on the Bill and or random breath testing as it is known. The road acknowledge the general welcome given to the traffic Bill to be introduced and hopefully Bill’s provisions. In the course of the debate last enacted by the summer will deal with that. It will week and again, this evening, Senators raised support the operation of privately operated speed issues which were pertinent and directly related cameras, which have been referred to throughout to the Bill and other issues as regards road safety the debate. There will be 11.1 million speed in general. I fully understand that it is very diffi- checks per annum. It will give increased powers cult to differentiate between these elements. to the Garda to impound unlicensed, untaxed and The road safety authority will have primary uninsured vehicles including foreign registered responsibility for taking the lead in the whole cars. It will ban driving when using a hand-held area of road safety. I am confident it will open up mobile phone. It will increase financial penalties a new era in the promotion of road safety and I and introduce a system of administrative disquali- am sure the authority will note the views fications. I am sure we will get the co-operation expressed by Members of the House, on all sides., of both Houses in introducing this Bill by the when considering how best to promote better summer. driver behaviour, which is of paramount import- I am a member of a road safety committee ance. If drivers could improve their behaviour, established by the Taoiseach. It is chaired by then without any legislation I am quite sure the Deputy Cullen, as the Minister for Transport and number of fatalities could be dramatically the Ministers for Finance, Justice, Equality and reduced. We can introduce regulations and legis- Law Reform, Health and Children, Education lation. Ultimately, however, safety is the and Science and Environment, Heritage and responsibility of road users, largely drivers. Local Government are also members of the com- Others using the roads must also take responsi- mittee. The Taoiseach, who has made road safety bility for their own safety. a Government priority, attends the meetings and Although I should not perhaps make a specific is fully briefed at all times. I understand speed reference to him, I want to refer to the chairman cameras, some stationary, some moveable, will of the board and the criticism of him by some play a major role in slowing down drivers. Members. We are very fortunate that somebody On the declaration of interests by members of of the calibre of the chairman agreed to take up the board, I cannot say what real difference this this position. If he was not working long hours as will make. The fact is that they will declare their chairman of the board, he could be spending his interests to the board. Members of this and the time in a leisurely fashion in his adopted home other House will know that under the freedom of town of Dungloe in County Donegal. I want to information legislation it is possible to establish express the thanks of the Minister and the what those interests are. I do not believe it is Government to the chairman for accepting this necessary for individual members of the board to 1265 Third Level 16 May 2006. Places 1266 have to make this information available to the Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 23 Houses of the Oireachtas. They will make it avail- May 2006. able to the board. Anyone who knows them will realise that they are people of the highest An Leas-Chathaoirleach: When is it proposed integrity. to sit again? As regards the traffic corps, I am familiar with the temporary corps set up in Inishowen, where Mr. Moylan: At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow. last year we had 31 road fatalities, half the figure for the entire county. The Garda Commissioner, Adjournment Matters. together with the chief superintendent decided on a temporary basis to establish a traffic corps ———— there. I am convinced that this has made an important input into road safety, notwithstanding Third Level Places. the tragic multiple fatalities of the five Latvians and Lithuanians at that time. Nationally, Ms Tuffy: The question is self-explanatory so I however, we have a full traffic corps. will leave it to the Minister of State to give her The chairman of the board is right, an assur- reply. ance has been given, not just to the board, but generally, that the membership of the traffic Minister of State at the Department of Edu- corps will increase progressively by 60 members cation and Science (Miss de Valera): I thank every quarter to bring the membership of the Senator Tuffy for raising this matter on the national traffic corps up to 1,200. That increase Adjournment. I should point out that universities will play a major role in reducing fatalities. and institutes of technology are autonomous This is not a debate in which to be political but institutions and, as such, are free to reduce or I must put on record the fact that the expenditure increase places available in particular disciplines on national roads is \1.5 billion, an increase of in accordance with student demand and industry 500% since 1997. The National Roads Authority requirements. should get the recognition it deserves for that The Department of Education and Science major increase. Investment in our non-national does not have specific statistics on places left unfilled, as requested by the Senator. However, roads has doubled since that period. I accept in general, enrolments in science there is a long way to go and we will continue 7 o’clock have remained quite constant over that unprecedented level of investment. the period to which the Senator I again take the opportunity to call on all driv- referred. For example, in the 2000-01 academic ers to observe a few simple rules; to drive within year, 13% of total enrolment in both the univer- the prescribed speed limits and to ensure that all sity and the institute of technology sectors was in passengers are wearing seat belts. I also call on the science disciplines. In the 2004-05 academic all drivers who even contemplate having a drink year, this was again 13% in the university sector and driving to desist from that because their fate, and had risen to 14% in the institute of tech- or the fate of someone with whom they may come nology sector. into contact, may lie just around the next corner. Engineering enrolment has also been quite I look forward to debating the specific issues in constant, with 8% of overall enrolment in the uni- the Bill on Committee Stage. versity sector being in this discipline in 2000-01 and 25% in the institute of technology sector. Dr. Henry: On a point of information, I asked These figures were down slightly, to 6% and 22% the Minister of State if the EU directive on bull- , respectively, in the 2004-05 year. Within engin- bars had been transposed. It is in the road safety eering, while civil engineering enrolment remains statement. He gave me to understand it had been. strong, enrolment in electronic engineering has Are bull-bars or roo-bars legal on SUVs, light weakened, which has an impact on the ICT trucks and so on, because they are a serious sector. danger to pedestrians? There has also been a wider fall off in enrol- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: That is a matter for ments in the computing area which has been Committee Stage. reflected in experience worldwide. In 2000-01, computing accounted for 8% of total enrolment Mr. Gallagher: I did not have the opportunity in the university sector and 15% in the institute to address numerous questions, including Senator of technology sector but this dropped to 3% and Henry’s. The rules of the road are being updated 8%, respectively, in the 2004-05 academic year. and should be available fairly soon. I will deal The Government’s strategic ambition for with that specific question in due course because Ireland is to continue to develop as a world-lead- it is an important one. ing knowledge economy. The availability of an adequate number of graduates skilled in the fields Question put and agreed to. of mathematics, physical sciences, biological 1267 Hospital 16 May 2006. Services 1268

[Miss de Valera.] fibrosis in St. Vincent’s Hospital, said lately there sciences, computing, technology and engineering had been no improvement in this area in 20 years. will be a critical factor in supporting this aim. They are not exactly the words we all want to A number of initiatives are under way aimed at hear. increasing participation in science at third level. Although Ireland has the highest rate of cystic Discover Science and Engineering is a national fibrosis in Europe we have some of the worst marketing and awareness campaign that aims to facilities. As far as I am aware, the cystic fibrosis increase interest in science, technology, inno- gene is dormant in all of us but it can be activated vation and engineering among students, teachers if two people with this gene have children. It is a and members of the public. Women in Tech- serious problem. nology and Science, WITS, works to actively pro- I am aware that up to three years ago there mote women in science in Ireland. It has pro- was a cystic fibrosis specialist, Dr. Cosgrove, in duced material, including a role model booklet, Waterford Regional Hospital. He retired and, for and a pack prepared by third level institutions, some reason, was never replaced. A paediatrician introducing secondary school girls to careers in looks after cystic fibrosis patients but the patient technology and science. to whom I refer recently turned 17 years of age It is worth noting that Ireland is performing and, therefore, is no longer eligible for paediatric reasonably well in the OECD in terms of our care. He has been informed he must travel to science graduation levels. With respect to our Dublin and the first problem he faces is that he degree and advanced degree science graduation will have to wait months for an appointment. In levels, we are ranked sixth out of 27 countries. addition, no isolation unit will be available unlike As a response to recommendations of the expert in Waterford Regional Hospital, which provides group on future skills needs, the Department of him with his own room and privacy. Cystic Education and Science established an ICT under- fibrosis sufferers are more prone to infection and graduate skills programme and an information it is vital that they should have their own rooms. technology investment fund for higher education. The Pollock report was published early last \ The Department has allocated 2.5 million to this year. It provided an assessment of the current and fund, which is administered by the HEA, for the future need of cystic fibrosis patients and made a current year. number of recommendations. It concluded that The fund aims to expand participation in IT fewer units of a more significant size were needed education, particularly through the use of part- to sustain viable staffing levels and to ensure staff time education and in-company training. It sup- had a sufficient workload to enable them to main- ports IT education and training through post- tain their skills level. The HSE established a graduate conversion courses, targeting improved working group following the report and it is due completion rates in IT courses and equipment to report shortly. The Government has provided renewal. In conjunction with the ICT sector, the additional funding in this area amounting to \4.78 HEA has also launched an active publicity cam- million, which is welcome but more money needs paign to support students in considering the value to be invested. A daughter of one of my constitu- of ICT when making their higher education ents in Carlow had to sleep in a chair in the acci- choices through the CAO. dent and emergency department of Tallaght It is hoped that measures such as these will Hospital recently before being admitted. That is help to bridge any developing enrolment gaps in not on, especially given that cystic fibrosis suf- areas which are of vital importance to our future ferers require regular hospital stays. economic development, and where the job pros- Sufferers are also under pressure because pects are now looking increasingly good. I thank organ donations have reduced worldwide follow- Senator Tuffy for raising this matter. ing advances in intensive care practices. Michael Scanlan, the Secretary General of the Depart- Hospital Services. ment of Health and Children recently wrote to Mr. Browne: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Twomey about this issue. He admitted in Deputy Tim O’Malley, to the House. I tabled a the letter that there were 76 donors in 2005, down similar motion on cystic fibrosis a few months ago from 89 the previous year, which is worrying. I and I expect I will table another one in a few look forward to the Minister of State’s reply. I months time because one of the weaknesses in hope he will update the House on progress since politics is that we are good at raising issues but the publication of the Pollock report and clarify the difficulty is following through on them and what is the difficulty with the appointment of a ensuring progress has been made. consultant dealing with cystic fibrosis at Water- I seek an update on the progress that has been ford Regional Hospital. made in the treatment services provided to people with cystic fibrosis. Those who suffer with Minister of State at the Department of Health this problem form a group that is largely ignored. and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): I am taking this Dr. Gallagher, who is a leading specialist in cystic matter on behalf of my colleague, the Ta´naiste 1269 Ambulance 16 May 2006. Service 1270 and the Minister for Health and Children. The Mr.T.O’Malley:I not aware of the exact posi- enhancement of services to persons with cystic tion regarding the vacancy but I am sure I can fibrosis has been identified as a key priority by find out from the HSE whether it has advertised the Minister. As part of the overall funding for the position. It depends on the availability of health services in 2006, additional funding of someone with the appropriate qualifications to do almost \5 million has been allocated for the the job. The working group will make specific development of cystic fibrosis services. This fund- recommendations very soon. ing will allow for the recruitment of additional medical, nursing and allied health professional Ambulance Service. staff, which will greatly improve the delivery of Mr. Moylan: I welcome the Minister of State. care to persons with cystic fibrosis throughout An ambulance service base is needed in the country. Edenderry following a major population increase Included in the overall funding is an allocation in north Offaly. Edenderry District Hospital also by the HSE of \220,000 to recruit a consultant services north and west Kildare. I thank the Mini- respiratory physician and support staff for Water- ster of State for the funding that was proved for ford Regional Hospital, with links to the special- the aged care unit in the hospital. An ambulance ist cystic fibrosis unit at St. Vincent’s University base could be set up at the hospital without sig- Hospital. A paediatric service is in place at nificant cost. A good ambulance service is pro- Waterford Regional Hospital for children with vided in both Tullamore and Birr, which was cystic fibrosis, which is led by a consultant paedia- established recently. I receive complaints about trician. The hospital treats approximately 30 pae- the response time of ambulances when called out diatric patients with cystic fibrosis. The need to to emergencies in Edenderry when roads are busy develop services for persons with cystic fibrosis is and so on. That should be addressed immediately. widely acknowledged. The Cystic Fibrosis Associ- The ambulance service is on call all the time at the Tullamore base but, at high risk times, a ation of Ireland commissioned a review of service should be provided at a base in Edend- hospital services with reference to accepted inter- erry. I hope the Minister of State will have national standards. The report, which was pub- favourable news. lished in 2005, provided an assessment of need for current and future cystic fibrosis patients. It Mr.T.O’Malley:I thank the Senator for rais- made a number of recommendations regarding ing this matter, which I am taking on behalf of the numbers and categories of staff appropriate my colleague, the Ta´naiste and Minister for for a modern, multidisciplinary cystic fibrosis Health and Children. The Health Service Execu- service. The report concluded that cystic fibrosis tive has responsibility for the continued develop- care should be provided in fewer units of a more ment of the ambulance service in the former Mid- significant size so that viable staffing levels can land Health Board region. The HSE has advised be maintained and staff have a sufficient work- that there have been a number of developments load to maintain their skills. in pre-hospital emergency care services in the Following publication of the report, the HSE region in recent years. These include the pro- established a multidisciplinary working group to vision of a new ambulance station at Birr, County undertake a detailed review of cystic fibrosis Offaly, which opened last February. This station services. The working group was asked to review is providing a new service on a 24 hour basis to the current configuration and delivery of services the area. The elimination of on-call arrangements to persons with cystic fibrosis in Ireland. It will as a means of providing emergency ambulance also make recommendations for the reconfigur- cover is designed to facilitate improvements in ation, improvement and development of those response times. Additional funding has been pro- vided to the HSE in recent years towards this services. The working group is due to report initiative. This funding has facilitated the elimin- shortly and it will make specific recom- ation of on-call in the former Midland Health mendations on a range of service improvements Board region. for persons with cystic fibrosis, including the The most significant development in the sector future development needs at Waterford. for many years is the roll-out of the advanced paramedic training programme. This will ensure Mr. Browne: Do I take it from the Minster of that ambulance personnel can administer a range State’s reply that funding has been provided for of 19 additional medications. This includes, for the recruitment of a consultant respiratory phys- example, cardiac medications, which cannot be ician? Has the vacancy been advertised? If so, is administered currently. The national ambulance there a difficulty filling it? Why is there a delay? training school, which operates under the aus- The Minister of State said the working group is pices of the HSE in conjunction with University due to report shortly. Does “shortly” mean College Dublin, is providing training for weeks, months or years? advanced paramedic candidates. Two advanced 1271 The 16 May 2006. Adjournment 1272

[Mr. T. O’Malley.] to the Ta´naiste for consideration. The Ta´naiste paramedics from the former Midland Health will respond to the HSE on the matter in the Board region graduated in 2005 and another five near future. are currently receiving training. The HSE purchased two rapid response Mr. Moylan: I thank the Minister of State for vehicles for the former Midland Health Board this favourable news. I ask the Minister of State region in 2005 to enable the establishment of a to consult with his colleague, the Ta´naiste and new rapid response service. This service is being Minister for Health and Children, to ensure that operated by the two advanced paramedics since the Edenderry service is in place as soon as they graduated. The HSE also replaced six possible. ambulances in the region’s fleet with new vehicles An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I welcome as part of its fleet replacement programme. The Senator Kitt and the delegation from his constitu- HSE has identified the provision of an ambulance ency to the Visitors Gallery. base at Edenderry as a priority development in its capital plan for 2006. The capital plan has been The Seanad adjourned at 7.25 p.m. until approved by the HSE board and was submitted 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 17 May 2006.