Second Session – Forty-First Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of

Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs

Chairperson Mrs. Sarah Guillemard Constituency of

Vol. LXX No. 1 - 3 p.m., Friday, November 25, 2016

ISSN 1708-668X MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature

Member Constituency Political Affiliation

ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CHIEF, Kevin NDP CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg PC ISLEIFSON, Len PC JOHNSON, Derek PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen St. Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew, Hon. PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SELINGER, Greg St. Boniface NDP SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian, Hon. Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC 1

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS Friday, November 25, 2016

TIME – 3 p.m. Hearing no other nominations, Mr. Teitsma is elected Vice-Chairperson. LOCATION – , Manitoba This meeting has been called to consider the CHAIRPERSON – Mrs. Sarah Guillemard following reports: Annual Report of Elections (Fort Richmond) Manitoba for the year ending December 31st, 2014, VICE-CHAIRPERSON – Mr. James Teitsma including the conduct of the 2014 Arthur-Virden and (Radisson) Morris by-elections; Annual Report of Elections Manitoba for the year ending December 31st, 2015, ATTENDANCE – 11 QUORUM – 6 including the conduct of The Pas by-election. Members of the Committee present: Before we get started, are there any suggestions Hon. Mmes. Cox, Stefanson from the committee as to how long we should sit this afternoon? Mr. Allum, Mrs. Guillemard, Messrs. Johnston, Kinew, Mses. Lamoureux, Morley-Lecomte, Mr. James Teitsma (Radisson): For two hours Messrs. Swan, Teitsma, Yakimoski and–or until the committee's work is done, and we can review at 5 p.m. APPEARING: Madam Chairperson: Is that the will of the Ms. Shipra Verma, Chief Electoral Officer, committee? [Agreed] Elections Manitoba Are there any suggestions as to the order in MATTERS UNDER CONSIDERATION: which we should consider the reports? Annual Report of Elections Manitoba for the Mr. (Minto): I'd suggest we simply year ending December 31, 2014, including the proceed globally. conduct of the 2014 Arthur-Virden and Morris by-elections Madam Chairperson: Is this agreed by the committee? [Agreed] Annual Report of Elections Manitoba for the year ending December 31, 2015, including the Does the honourable Deputy Premier wish to conduct of The Pas by-election make an opening statement? And would she please introduce the officials in attendance. * * * Hon. Heather Stefanson (Minister of Justice and Madam Chairperson: Good afternoon. Will the Attorney General): I'd like to first of all introduce Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs please our officials in attendance. I'd like to introduce our come to order. Chief Electoral Officer, Ms. Shipra Verma, and Before the committee can proceed with the thank her for being here today. business before it, it must elect a new And I'll also ask her, if she could, introduce the Vice-Chairperson. other officials that are with her in attendance today, Are there any nominations? and then I'll proceed with other introductions. Ms. Shipra Verma (Chief Electoral Officer, Hon. Cathy Cox (Minister of Sustainable Elections Manitoba): We have Debbie MacKenzie, Development): Madam Chair, I would like to deputy chief electoral officer, and Tracy Nylen, nominate MLA James Teitsma from Radisson. manager of election finances. Madam Chairperson: Mr. Teitsma has been Madam Chairperson: Thank you. nominated. Mrs. Stefanson: Also in attendance is–with us today Are there any other nominations? is the Commissioner of Elections, Mr. Bill Bowles. 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016

And I'm wondering if there would be leave of the In this celebration, we are reminded of the committee to have the Commissioner of Elections be importance of voting, having rightful representation with us at the table today and to provide an opening in the Legislature, and that fair elections are a statement if he has one for us today. cornerstone of any healthy democracy. Protecting and enhancing the electoral process requires the Madam Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee dedicated focus of all political parties and a team of to invite Mr. Bowles to the table? officials represented here today. That is why the Mr. Swan: Before we vote on that, I have a question work of this committee is particularly important. for the Deputy Premier. Is it the minister's view that The opportunity today to hear from the the commissioner for elections would simply provide Chief Electoral Officer–unfortunately, not the a statement of some type and would not participate Commissioner of Elections–but it does enable us all or what exactly is she proposing this afternoon? to benefit from the years of experience for service Mrs. Stefanson: I think at this stage we are to–on front lines of democracy. proposing that we–if the–if Mr. Bowles has an opening statement, that he provide one. If there are Our new government moved quickly to questions from the committee, I guess that would strengthen democracy and our democratic insti- come at the time and ask leave of the committee. I tutions. Our legislation in the First Session of the don't know if there are questions from members of 41st Legislature restored voting rights to workers. the committee or not, but if there are, I would leave Our legislation requires that by-elections be that up to that time to–and to the Chair to decide. conducted within 180 days after a vacancy occurs. Madam Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee This change was made necessary in part by the to invite Mr. Bowles to the table for the opening events leading up to the by-election in Morris and statement? The Pas, both of which are included in the annual reports we are discussing today. The people of Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Morris were denied fair representation in the An Honourable Member: No. Legislature for 350 days. Media reported this as the longest period of time a premier was–has waited to Madam Chairperson: I heard a no. So it's been call a by-election for a vacant seat in Manitoba denied. history. The people of The Pas were denied fair Minister Stefanson, continue with your representation for 341 days. We felt that these time statement, please. periods are far too long to leave Manitobans without representation in the Legislature, and that is why we Mrs. Stefanson: Well, I want to thank you very made these changes. much, Madam Chairperson. I just want to thank Commissioner Bowles for being with us and taking * (15:10) the time out of his schedule today. It's unfortunate, I Our government established a standard 28-day guess, the committee has not given him leave to election period for a set-date general election. This present an opening statement here today. But I do implements a long-standing recommendation that want to thank him for taking time to be here, and I'll appeared in not only the Elections Manitoba annual proceed now with my opening statement. report we are considering today but many of the It's a pleasure to speak to the committee as we reports that preceded them. consider the annual report of Elections Manitoba for There is, of course, much more that we need to the year ending December 31st, 2014, as well as the do. Our Throne Speech, delivered earlier this week, year ending December 31st, 2015. And I'd like the– included a commitment to introduce a stand-alone to thank the Chief Electoral Officer and the referendum law that will be a key part of our plan to Commissioner of Elections for their attendance restore Manitobans' right to vote on increases to today. We look forward to hearing from you as the major taxes. Again, this acts as a long-standing Chief Electoral Officer, and we look forward to recommendation of Elections Manitoba included in today's discussion on how to strengthen the electoral the annual reports under consideration today. In fact, process in Manitoba. the recommendation for a stand-alone referendum This year we are celebrating the 100th anni- law was first introduced in 2000 more than a decade versary of some women earning the right to vote. and a half ago. The input of the Chief Electoral November 25, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3

Officer has been invaluable as we move forward Mr. Bowles himself, his office's presence at this with our legislative agenda. committee would be without president–without precedent, neither required nor provided for by To the Chief Electoral Officer, I would like to statute. Mr. Bowles, in his position, is an officer of thank you and your team personally for your input the Legislative Assembly. He was not here today as a and recommendations. We look forward to additional result of prior dialogue or discussion among the opportunities to collaborate, including the continued caucuses, and we're not sure exactly how this work related to the permanent voters list. I look suddenly came up. forward to the discussions of the committee here today, and I want to thank the committee for the The Commissioner of Elections does have the opportunity to put–to make an opening statement. job of receiving complaints against candidates and, of course, potentially MLAs in the result of the Madam Chairperson: We thank the honourable course of elections, and we do have concerns which, Deputy Premier. perhaps through discussion, through some thought, Does the official opposition wish to make an we can maybe allay that the nature of the questions opening statement? could undermine the integrity and the independence of his office. It is certainly a different matter to have Mr. Swan: Yes. I do want to start today by thanking this commissioner be questioned by the legislators; the minister, as well as the Chief Electoral Officer, he's statutorily required to monitor a committee. Ms. Verma, and the other Elections Manitoba officials who are with us this afternoon. So we have asked that the Rules Committee of the Legislature meet to discuss this issue. I think it is This committee meeting does provide MLAs more productive for us to move in that direction with an opportunity to learn more about how when there are different ideas being posed that we elections operate in Manitoba, and also to share ideas deal with that straight up at a Rules Committee on Elections Manitoba's operations and discuss how meeting rather than to try to make the rules up on the we can strengthen the electoral process and thereby fly. strengthen our democracy. So that's all I'm going to say on that. I think Mr. We know that free and fair elections are the Bowles will have certainly something to add, and I cornerstone of a strong democracy. Manitobans are know that if he does have concerns about the engaged in their democratic processes, and we do resources he has or recommendations for other wish to sustain and encourage that vital commitment. changes, I'm quite satisfied that the Chief Electoral In that vein we're here to hear many of the varied and Officer is able to bring those things forward. important activities of Elections Manitoba to try and increase voter turnout, to ease the accessibility of So, with those comments, again thanks to voting, and to ensure by the fairness of the electoral everyone for their attendance and your commitment process, including making sure as many Manitobans to electoral process, and we look forward to as possible are on the list so that voting is as easy as presentations and answers this afternoon. possible, as we examine the annual reports for Elections Manitoba for 2014 and 2015. Madam Chairperson: We thank the member. It is fair to be said that political parties do Does the Chief Electoral Officer, Ms. Verma, disagree from time to time. I do hope we can all wish to make an opening statement? Ms. Verma? affirm our commitment to ensuring that the electoral process is best when all voters are able and Ms. Verma: I'd like to start by thanking the encouraged to vote and participate in our democratic members for their words of appreciation. It means a life on an equal footing. And, Ms. Verma, we do lot for the 10,000 staff members who worked appreciate your efforts in facilitating this important towards administering this next–the previous endeavour and your commitment to realizing that our election. And I want to thank you–or to–inviting us highest democratic goals are in practice. to discuss our tabled annual reports. Just to briefly comment on the request that the Today I'll provide an overview of the recent minister had made, I just want to make it clear for general election. I'll also outline several new the record that we have great respect both for the recommendations for amendments to The Elections Office of the Commissioner of Elections as well as Act which have been discussed with the advisory 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016 committee earlier this year and recommendations in the results of the election and increased the plurality the 2015 annual report. from 101 to 107. I'll start by providing an overview of the During the first few months following the 41st general election held on April 19th. This was election, we held debriefing sessions with returning the second election to be held on a set date. officers and other election staff. We conducted a Enumeration began 75 days before election day, on series of post-election surveys with various February 4th, followed by revision. The writ was stakeholders. The surveys helped us review a issued on March 16th and nominations closed on performance, understand voting behaviour, gauge Tuesday, March 29. A total of 221 candidates ran for public awareness and attitudes about Manitoba's election. electoral process. The final voters list included 773,000 eligible Moving to campaign finance review, 239 can- voters, of whom 444,000 voters cast a ballot. didates and six registered parties were required to Advance voting was held in 293 locations across the file statements. Of these, 155 candidates and three province, with voters being able to vote anywhere in parties were eligible for reimbursement. All election advance. financial statements, including original, amended and final, as well as reimbursements, are posted on our On election day, 2,766 regular voting stations website. were opened across the province. An additional 117 institution voting stations were established in I would like to extend my thanks to all the health care and correctional facilities. agencies that worked with our office before and during the election, including the Disabilities Issues In order to promote accessibility and support Office, Communication Services, Dakota Ojibwa our mandate to provide election information to Tribal Council, Canadian Red Cross, Indigenous and the public, our office took on a wide range of Northern Affairs Canada, Department of Education, engagement and outreach activities. These activities administration and student faculty of various brought us in contact with many different groups of universities and colleges, the Nellie McClung Manitobans. Foundation and many others. The total cost to administer this election would I would also like to acknowledge the service of be approximately $13.6 million, which is within the more than 10,000 staff who helped administer this budgeted amount. The projected cost of reimburse- election. ment and auditor subsidy is $3.4 million. Now, moving to recommendations, the In comparison, the cost to administer the following two recommendations of–under The previous general election was $11.9 million and Elections Act are being carried forward from the $3 million for reimbursements. previous annual report. For more information on the conduct, please One is to expand the timeline for the delivery refer to the Statement of Votes which was released in and return of ballot kits for absentee voters to allow October. This publication provides statistics on the voters a longer period to return their ballots, and registration of voters by method, votes cast by second is a requirement to remove the requirement to method and voter turnout. Copies were distributed to post a notice of election in each rural voting area. MLAs and the publication is also available on the website. * (15:20) To support candidates and parties in the There are also two recommendations which have compliance with campaign finance requirements, our been carried forward under The Election Financing office provided ongoing assistance. Staff presented Act. The first will clarify and strengthen the 28 information sessions to official agents, campaign provision on government advertising under managers and others. section 92 by including a clear reference to use of Now, moving on to our post-election activities, government finances or resources, and the second is beginning with applications filed for both Elmwood to allow for a 30-day deadline for payment of a late and The Maples for recount. The recount request for filing fee. We've also recommended development of The Maples was later withdrawn. A judicial recount a referendum act, which has been referenced in the was held for Elmwood on May 9th, which confirmed recent Throne Speech. November 25, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5

In addition to meeting–to these recom- and finally, we'll make the organization of the voters mendations carried forward, we have been working list alphabetically, province-wide. on a series of recommendations that would update The second category of recommendation is the electoral process in Manitoba. The handout, around innovation. In order to improve the voting which you have all received, outlines those recom- process and achieve efficiencies while still main- mendations and also a proposed election calendar. taining the integrity, we are recommending that we The two key objectives which have been central be allowed to make modifications to the electoral in developing these recommendations are improving process, such as introducing the use of technology. the voting experience and achieving administrative Any modification will be discussed with the advisory efficiencies. Together, they will modernize the committee and reported in our next annual report. electoral system while maintaining the integrity of The next two recommendations are intended to the voting process. enhance legislative clarity. The first will expressly state that elections officials cannot be nominated as The first series falls under the establishment of candidates in the same election. The second is a Manitoba voter register. A register would replace the provision against impersonation of a candidate or enumeration as the method of voter registration for election official. This will strengthen the integrity of provincial elections. Adoption of this system will the electoral process. bring our province up to date with all other jurisdictions in Canada. Creation of this register will The next set of recommendations reflects the require significant changes to The Elections Act, changes in voting patterns. As the trend towards which includes provision for the office to establish advance voting has increased, we are finding that the register, ability to access reliable sources of voter election-day voting places are not working to full information. capacity. For that reason, we are recommending an increase in the voting area size: rural, from 250 to Due to the replacement of enumeration with a 350; urban, from 350 to 500. register, the election calendar would also change. With enumeration being replaced, there will no need Under the current legislation, Manitobans can to start this calendar 75 days before the election date. vote at any advance location. However, in many Target registration could begin before the writ, with isolated and remote locations, as well in personal- dates variable as required. Voter information cards care homes, only resident voters have been voting. and a preliminary voters list will be distributed on For this reason, we are recommending making the day the writ is issued. non-resident advance voting optional in these locations. The proposed calendar has three columns. The To introduce further efficiency that will allow us first reflects the current 75-day calendar and the next to adapt advance voting patterns, we are recom- two columns reflect two 28-day calendars, one with mending that advance hours at places like shopping election day on the Tuesday and one with an election malls be adjusted so that they correlate with the mall day on a Saturday. Nominations will close 22 days hours. Having these locations open after mall hours before election day. Advance will begin 12 days requires additional security where there is almost no before election day and continue for eight days. The voter traffic. recommendation for the election day to be moved to a Saturday, or if it has to remain on a Tuesday, to Also, because of the increase in non-resident become a mandatory province-wide in-service day advance voting, more time is needed for the count. for schools. The main reason for this is student To speed up the counting process, we are proposing safety. A secondary reason is that Saturday voting that returning officers be allowed to open the non- can make the schools more accessible for use as resident advance-certificate envelope at 6 p.m. voting places. instead of waiting until 8 p.m. The ballot envelopes themselves will be opened at 8 p.m. This will allow Moving away from the calendar, we are also for earlier reporting of advance results. recommending that information be collected about 16- and 17-year-olds and other Manitobans who may Our next recommendation is to adjust election- become eligible to vote. The voters list will be day voting hours so the start time is moved from distributed annually to registered parties and MLAs. 7 a.m. to 8 a.m., which will make it consistent with A provision to–will be required for voters to opt out, advance voting and other elections. 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016

Our final recommendation will enhance to hire 3,000 staff, and there's a challenge in inclusiveness. It is to increase the pool of election accessibility. officials. We are recommending that 16- and Going to the permanent voters list, statistics 17-year-olds and non-Canadian citizens be eligible to show a permanent voters list is more complete in the work as election officials. Currently, these positions information. As we can see from the federal list, the have been available only to some individuals. provincial voters list is 10 points down. Provincial That concludes my slate of recommendations voters list was 85 per cent at the completeness stage and opening statement. I'll be happy to answer any while the federal list was at 95 per cent. questions which you may have. The other benefit would be that–and a list will be Thank you. available to the members and to the parties on an annual basis. So, in case a by-election needs to be Madam Chairperson: Thank you. conducted, we will be ready at a faster pace. The floor is now open for questions. From a cost perspective, there is not much Mr. Swan: I would like to start with some questions, significant difference between a permanent register and probably more information from you, and enumeration. There may be some cost Ms. Verma, about the permanent voters list. efficiencies which may occur in the long term, but, based on our research from other jurisdictions, it's So, in a general way, I'd ask the Chief Electoral quite minimal. Officer to outline the potential benefits and the potential drawbacks of moving to a permanent voters Mr. Swan: The CEO has discussed the experience of list. . Has the experience of other provincial Ms. Verma: Thank you for this question. jurisdictions also informed the position of Elections The benefits: Let's start with enumeration. Manitoba? Enumeration allows for a more current list. If we Ms. Verma: Manitoba is currently the only compare the federal voters list to our Manitoba jurisdiction which is conducting door-to-door voters list, we do exceed in currency. However, the province-wide enumeration. All the other issue is accessibility for the enumerators. jurisdictions have moved towards establishing a permanent register. In a recent survey of our Elections workers, we found 42 per cent of enumerators had issues in Mr. Swan: The CEO spoke about reliable sources of accessing the doors–condominiums and apartments. voter information. So there were–there was an increase of more Can we get some information, then, on what than 50 per cent in refusals as compared to 2011; sources of data would Elections Mantioba expect 33,000 homes refused to be enumerated. That would be used in the compilation and the impacts the completeness of the voters list. maintenance of a permanent voters list? Mr. Vice-Chairperson in the Chair Ms. Verma: The data sources that we are looking at The other issue with enumeration is winter is, of course, Elections Canada, the federal voters conditions, if it happens during that time. Manitoba list. has severe weather conditions. We had more than We will also be looking at receiving information 100 claims for workers compensation. The cost for from the municipal sources like City of Winnipeg, workers compensation benefits itself has exceeded City of Brandon, if they have a permanent register. more than $100,000. Madam Chairperson in the Chair Although enumeration door to door is a personal call to the voters, it allows for an effective From our provincial bodies, the few sources that communication. It's a call to them to say that election we have identified are Vital Statistics, because the is happening. It's the best advertising you can have, a deceased information or change in name, change in knock at your doorstep. But we do have challenges gender information can come from them; Manitoba in relation to safety of the enumerators. We have a Health, because usually people do want to keep their challenge in relation of recruitment because we have addresses current when it comes to Manitoba Health. November 25, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 7

The third source we are looking at is driver's agreement clearly states that they will be providing licence. Again, that's one of the sources, places information on citizenship to us. where people update their information on a regular There was a federal bill which has been basis. Also that will be a source for potential future introduced yesterday which also enhances the ability voters, 16- and 17-year-olds. for Elections Canada to have more information from * (15:30) Citizenship because one of the areas which was lacking is the confirmation of existing citizens, and Mr. Swan: One of the challenges–there's several that bill may address that issue. challenges in a riding like Minto, which is the West End of Winnipeg. The riding goes all the way out to Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for Valour Road, but all the way in to very close to what that. we consider downtown–Langside Street, so you have a great cross-section of the West End of Winnipeg. One of the additional challenges is that many of the people who live towards the inner part of Minto Within that area is a large number of people who constituency, they are more transient than the general right now are not citizens, but if everything goes the population. They are less likely to have a driver's way we hope, they will be citizens eligible to vote. licence. They may be less likely to have a clear path Is there any notification that you're aware of when it comes to identification. that's given by the federal government when some- body becomes a Canadian citizen? Has Elections Manitoba done any analysis of how moving to a permanent voters list would impact Ms. Verma: Our understanding is that Elections certain areas of Manitoba, those where people Canada receives information from Citizenship and generally have a lower socio-economic standing, or Immigration on new citizens, and since Elections things like that? Has there been any analysis done by Canada will be one of our potential sources of Elections Manitoba to try to see whether moving to a information, we will be able to receive that permanent voters list could actually have unintended information too. consequences of shutting out more people in poorer Alongside, in case there is a permanent register, areas of the province? there will be venues open throughout the year for Ms. Verma: So, in case a permanent register gets voters to register themselves to this registry. We are established, then the last enumeration, which was planning for having it on the website. They can do it held in February and March, will become the base of in person or by mail too. our permanent register, so all that information will be A replacement towards a permanent register still captured. We are also relying on the other data will have the option of target registration. A target sources and the voters themselves to update their registration is not a full province-wide enumeration; information. Unfortunately, we haven't made any however, the areas which have transient populations formal study, but we are also relying on the statistics or areas of new growth will be addressed to add them provided by Elections Canada on the completeness on to the voters list. of the information, which is 10 per cent higher than what we have under our enumeration system. Mr. Swan: I wonder if the CEO could provide to this committee any information that she has from Mr. Swan: I'd also like to ask specifically about Elections Canada as to how that citizenship indigenous people who may have a treaty card, who information will be shared. I think it would be may receive their health care through the federal helpful for me and, I expect, for a number of other government, who may, though, move into Winnipeg members of the committee. temporarily or indefinitely. Will there be any ability Ms. Verma: The process usually for receiving of Elections Manitoba to receive that information as information from Elections Canada is that we enter well? into an information-sharing agreement. We currently also have an information-sharing agreement, but we Ms. Verma: What we are proposing is that we have don't receive regular data as–we don't maintain a the ability to receive information from any provincial permanent register. In case we go for a permanent agency that we consider necessary, so, in case there register, then we'll be receiving information are other sources identified, we will be approaching periodically from Elections Canada where the them for the request for updating information. 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016

Mr. Swan: Yes, but some of these people, if they identifying areas where target enumeration needs to are indigenous, they belong to a First Nation; they be conducted. consider that to be their usual home. Although they Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for may be residing in the West End of Winnipeg or the that. North End of Winnipeg or elsewhere, indefinitely, that information might only be with the federal At what stage, then, is Elections Manitoba at in government. And I'm just wondering, would the terms of developing and implementing a permanent agreement with Elections Canada, in your view, voters list? include those folks, and how would that take place? Ms. Verma: We have been gathering information at Ms. Verma: Their understanding is correct. The this time on the permanent register. We have few agreement from Elections Canada will capture that options in how this register can be established. information. Elections Canada does have information Recently, implemented a from First Nation communities currently. But we permanent register for their 2016 general election. have not had an opportunity to analyze that We're also keeping current with technology which is information completely. being introduced in other jurisdictions. So we are at a planning stage for the permanent register. Depending Mr. Swan: That's fair and, well, we'll certainly look upon the legislation which comes through, the forward to more discussions on that as we go and as requirements which are there in the legislation, the Elections Manitoba does more work on that. provisions which the legislation has on the ability for us to receive information, which information we can One of the statements the Chief Electoral Officer collect, we'll move into the design of the permanent has made would be that there would be some online register. tools to allow people to get on the voters list. What provisions would you anticipate being made for We are expecting for–the timeline for this to be people who do not have access to a computer or, like a year to two, and we–what would–we would like my mother, have never turned on a computer in their to test it before the general election comes. entire life? Traditionally, between an election cycle, there are a couple of by-elections, and if that happens, then we'll Ms. Verma: So what we are, again, basing the be able to test the permanent register. register will be on the last enumeration which has been conducted. So anyone who has been–who was Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for on the voters list on the 41st general election will be that answer. moved to the permanent register. Subsequently, data So I think you've answered what was going to be sources from different sources will be used to update my next question, which was whether Elections and maintain the register. Manitoba anticipates there would have to be legislative and regulatory changes for this to occur, Mr. Swan: I'm wondering if Elections Manitoba and, presumably, the answer is, yes, there will need keep open the idea, even if there is a move to a to be new legislation brought forward and passed by permanent voters list, of maintaining door-to-door the Legislature. enumeration in particular areas if it appears that there is a very, very low penetration rate and a low number Ms. Verma: There will be significant amendments of people we expect live in that area being put on the which will be required to The Elections Act. Our voters list. Elections Act is very prescriptive, and enumeration is referred to at different parts of the legislation. Ms. Verma: Absolutely, that will be a consideration that we'll be keeping while planning the target Mr. Swan: Yes, I thank the Chief Electoral Officer registration. We also plan to use the federal data for that. from where target registration has been conducted * (15:40) because they also have a mechanism of identifying places where the–their voters list is not satisfactory. And in your comments, you had said that So compiling information from Elections Canada, overall, there was an anticipation the costs might be experience of our returning officers doing analysis similar or perhaps even a bit less. Is there an initial, of the change in the voters list from 2011 to larger expense, though? I know that every year, of 2016 would help us make some determination on course, LAMC will have to go through the Estimates November 25, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 9 of Elections Manitoba. We know that with a set register. We'll be consulting with the specialists on election date, it becomes easier to spread those costs what kind of security measures we need to protect and budget for those costs over an election cycle. But our servers and from unauthorized access. are there some up-front costs that are anticipated that There is also a responsibility which will go to would be above and beyond the normal pace of a the political parties and to the candidates, similarly, four-year election cycle? which is currently there, for safeguarding of this Ms. Verma: So enumeration costed us $3.4 million, information. and that expense was incurred in 2016. The next Mr. Swan: I just want to quickly deal with a couple enumeration, if we were to do on a province-wide of comments that were made by the minister in her scale with the same time period and considering the opening statement. She talked about Bill 7 regarding CPI increase, would cost us around $3.8 million. employee votes in certification applications. Those In the case of a permanent register, there is will not be conducted in any way by Elections ongoing maintenance. So, for the set-up of the cost, Manitoba, will they? which we are expecting that it will take two years, Ms. Verma: I'm not familiar with that legislation, so there will be hardware cost, software cost. We'll also if you could please let me know what it is about and have to invest in security because we'll be I can comment on it. safeguarding personal information of all Manitobans, along with establishing–we'll be requiring more Mr. Swan: Sure. I was just–I was a little surprised FTEs to be hired for this project. So, what we are that the minister sort of opened her comments by expecting is, over the two years–first two years, it talking about a move, which did pass just a couple of will be $1.2 million and then an annual maintenance weeks ago, to require a vote of employees any time cost of $450,000. there is a union certification application where there's an organizing drive within a workplace. And I just During an election period, we'll also need to want to confirm that that's not going to be handled by budget for target registration and also other inci- Elections Manitoba; that's being handled by the dental costs like voter information cards, which Manitoba Labour Board. could also–which could amount to around $1.4 million. So, in the first cycle, if you're looking Ms. Verma: Yes, my jurisdiction is under The at it, it might cost us $3.5 million. These are Elections Act and The Election Financing Act, and preliminary estimates based on certain assumptions. union vote does not fall under either of these Our plan is if we get the legislation, then for the legislations. technology solution, we'll probably like to have an RFP out because there are many solutions available, Mr. Swan: And as well, the minister talked about make an assessment of which will be the best fit for Bill 2, which actually was the first substantive bill Manitoba and proceed accordingly. that was introduced into the Legislature. I was a little surprised when we came to committee the Mr. Swan: Yes, I thank the Chief Electoral Officer. minister actually introduced amendments that kind of We know in the past there have been some changed the wording of the entire bill, as it were, problems with the protection of the privacy of data. and she reported that those were based on recom- The federal government has, from time to time, made mendations that have been made by Elections mistakes. What privacy protections will Elections Manitoba. Had Elections Manitoba been consulted Manitoba put in place with the introduction of a by the minister or by the new government before this permanent voters list? bill was introduced into the Legislature? Ms. Verma: We take privacy very seriously. Even Ms. Verma: Communication between our office is with the existing voters list, only authorized usually confidential, but what I can comment is on personnel in the office and the head office and at the the process. returning office have access to voters lists. We also The Bill 2 refers to The Legislative Assembly make arrangements for the safe delivery of the paper Act; it doesn't refer to The Elections Act or The copy of the voters list back to the returning office Election Financing Act. However, it has an impact and back, then, to the head office. on how–when the election has to be conducted. So Similarly, in case there is a permanent register, what I can tell you is that we did approach the only authorized personnel will have access to the Legislative Counsel to advise them that the current 10 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016 legislation had a similar issue about this vacancy Mr. Swan: That's fair, and even if we were to move to be filled in a year's time, and there is some then to a permanent voters list, we know that that interpretation required when we say vacancy has to would reduce or perhaps eliminate door-to-door be filled. The vacancy has to be filled as often– enumeration but, of course, you'll still need the election gets held or the vacancy needs to be filled returning officers in each constituency, the deputy by the time the result becomes official. returning officers, all the other workers. Of the 10,000 people that were hired by Elections Manitoba After an election is held, there are 14 days for a last time for conducting the election, even with a recount application, and then the recount application permanent voters list, how many employees will they–after the recount is held, a judicial appeal can Elections Manitoba be hiring for the next election? also occur. So the timeline cannot be determined when that one year gets completed. So we made a Ms. Verma: So, during an election, an employee suggestion to the Legislative Counsel that if it's may be working in different capacity. So an possible to amend the bill or bring this matter to the enumerator may work as a revising agent, may also attention so that there's a clear timeline on when the work as an advance voting official and may also vacancy has to be filled or change the reference to an work as an election official. It will depend upon the election has to be held. ability of that individual, their performance and their availability too. So, if we have to move away from Mr. Swan: And one other bill that did pass in the enumeration, there are 3,000 people who were hired last session was Bill 4, which deals with shortening for enumeration purposes and around 7,000 people the length of the election campaign. And I think on election day, and in between we also had there's–there were some decent arguments as to why additional staff during advance voting and as this was a good idea, and it certainly matches other revising agent. So there could be a drop of around provinces. It works perfectly as long as we have a 15 to 20 per cent in the employees level, but when traditional election cycle now, where the writ is you're doing target registration we'll still need staff at dropped and the election happens on the date which that level too. is set. We know the next election is supposed to * (15:50) happen on October 6th, 2020, not that we've marked that on our calendar or anything. Mr. Swan: Sure. And, of course, 1988's not really a year that I like to think about very much, but in that What has been experienced in other jurisdictions year there was a government that fell well before, at that have set election dates when there has been an that point, four to five years, which had been the early election because there has been either a norm in Manitoba. Although you would hope to have minority government which has fallen or a govern- the major positions, the returning officers, maybe ment which may have a majority has effectively some of the deputy returning officers, in place, it provoked an earlier election by managing to lose a would still be a scramble for Elections Manitoba if budget vote or a Throne Speech vote or some other there was to be an early election because of the vote of confidence? Have you talked to other number of other short-term employees that are hired jurisdictions about what impact that would have on to help conduct the election across the province. what I think are very solid plans and plans that are Ms. Verma: So, before there was a set date election, measured to make sure that Elections Manitoba is before 2011, we all voted in the same environment of getting ready? What happens, to be blunt, if the plug uncertainty, and as being prudent planners, we would gets pulled a year or eight months or six months start hiring people two years ahead of time in the before Elections Manitoba expects the election to position of returning officers and assistant returning happen? officers. Ms. Verma: Our mandate of our office is to be We also have a listing of previous election election ready at all times. Even though we do have a workers which we provide to the returning officers, set-date election, we still are required to be election so in case of any such situation, the first measure ready. However, in practical sense, that's not possible which the returning officer and assistant returning at all the time, but by being aware of the political officers do is they start contacting the previous environment, we do try to keep our plans flexible election workers. Subsequently, our advertising and adjust accordingly. campaign also begins. We do get our ad campaigns November 25, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 ready almost a year ahead of time just in case for would be fundraising income. That limit has been meeting any such contingency. increased from $15 to $25. We also get a list of election workers from Those are the historical changes which I can federal Elections Canada, and we also work with the recollect on campaign finance provisions, though City of Winnipeg and City of Brandon and other some modernization might be required from the municipalities to get their list of workers, too. So we parties, but it also depends on the parties' resources do get a pool of election workers to begin with our and infrastructure. conduct of election. Mr. Swan: Thank you. On page 12 of the annual Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for report for 2015 there's a list of the registered party that. financial statements or, more properly, I suppose, the information taken from each party's financial As we’ve heard, I mean this election has brought statements. in a record number of new MLAs to the Legislature from all three parties, and I see a number of them So, building on your last answer, is it fair to say sitting around the table. the type and the quantity of financial information that the political parties are required to produce is I wonder if the Chief Electoral Officer could becoming more complex as these processes become just, without going into a major history lesson, talk more transparent? about how, over the past two decades, there's been increased financial reporting requirements on Ms. Verma: Well, it will depend on what kind of political parties and how those have placed accounting system the parties currently had–or had at additional financial administrative burdens on the the time these legislation were introduced. So it parties, both the large ones represented in the would be more appropriate for the parties to Legislature and some of the smaller ones who aren't comment upon what accounting changes have been– represented in the Legislature. had to be made to properly account for the legislative changes. Ms. Verma: Okay. So, over the past two decades, campaign finance provisions have enhanced. We had Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for contribution limits which came into effect in 2001. that. There's also leadership contest financial requirements Also, in the same report from 2015, on page 16 which were introduced subsequently. of that report, there's a table regarding the dollar There are two forms which are required to be value of the credits claimed for political filed by the parties. One is called Form 920, which contributions by Manitobans for the past 10 years. reports on the annual financial activities, and there is And, of course, it varies from year to year. a Form 921, which reports on the election activities. Is it fair to say the dollar value changes over the Those forms have been changed to reflect any course of the election cycle and generally leading up amendments which have occurred, but other than the to and in an election year the amount of those contribution rules which have been introduced which contributions from Manitobans will be greater? would require a system within the parties to analyze Ms. Verma: That will be correct. and identify contributions in aggregate more than $3,000, because I believe some parties have a What we have observed is the year leading to the fundraising mechanism which may have cumulative election or the election year shows a real spike in contributions coming up so their systems might need contribution amounts which are received by the some design change for that, but I'm just making parties and candidates as compared to the other years these comments based on assumptions which may be in an election cycle. required for proper accounting purposes. Mr. Swan: And I see in the report there are some There are also some child care and disability areas that are broken down by political parties and expense provisions which have been introduced, but some that aren't. The particular chart–it's the top of those will impact the candidates and not the party. page 16, and it's–I'll just read out–it's the following Fundraising rules have changed. The earlier limit table, shows the dollar value of credits claimed for used to be $15 for fundraising–fundraisers. Above political contributions for the last 10 years. And it that they used to be contributions and below that they has the tax year and the amounts. 12 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016

Would it be possible for Elections Manitoba to And communication, too, our survey indicates provide us with a breakdown of the chart from 2006 that voters and non-voters both support the effort of to 2015 broken out by the credits claimed for each Elections Manitoba to provide information, and they political party? would like to see a role of the agency to encourage voting. Ms. Verma: The tax credit information is provided to us by Department of Finance. So we do not Based on that response from the previous control this information. We'll have to inquire from surveys too, our messages have been both infor- the department if they have such a breakdown. If mational and motivational in our ad campaign. they do, we'll be happy to share that information with Mr. Swan: And, just to take a step sideways right you. now, you mention a survey. And is that a survey Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for referred to in the reports or a separate survey that that. Elections Manitoba has published? * (16:00) Just moving on to a couple of other things, I do want to talk a little bit about the advertising and Ms. Verma: We do a survey post-election. So that other efforts being made by Elections Manitoba. We will be included in the 2016 annual report. A survey appreciate what I think has been a steady effort by was conducted for Manitoba population. A survey Elections Manitoba to encourage more Manitobans was also conducted on election workers. We also to come out and vote. We know that federally there conducted a survey for voters and non-voters, and was a definite lack of enthusiasm by the government tried to identify the reasons for non-voting. The of the day in having Elections Canada encourage response was quite similar to the previous surveys people to vote. I'm hopeful that Elections Manitoba that we have done. A news release was issued on the will continue its interest in getting Manitobans out. survey information earlier this year, and those–there are two survey reports which are available on our We had by-elections both recorded in the 2014 website. report and the 2015 report. Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for Is Elections Manitoba satisfied with the rate of that, and I'm sure we'll be discussing that at a future voter participation in the three by-elections that are meeting. covered by the reports? Can you just sort of walk us through what Ms. Verma: The voter turnout has declined in the promotional advertising efforts were undertaken to recent by-elections. And the last one, which was held prepare for the two by-elections in 2014, Arthur- in The Pas, the voter turnout, I believe, was Virden and Morris? 24 per cent, which was quite low. So, when we are– Ms. Verma: So, when a–unlike a set election date, that is certainly discouraging to see the low voter we are not aware of when a by-election has to be turnout. conducted. So, when a writ has–when an order is issued for a writ to be produced for a certain But, as I've said in the past, voter turnout is a by-election, our promotion activities begin at that complex issue. It–the reasons for low voter turnout time–most of the promotional activities. There might relates to several factors which might be there. There be some other communication and outreach work are some political factors; there are socio-economic which we do in anticipation of an upcoming factors; and yes, there could be a communication by-election. factor too. So, in the case of Morris and Arthur-Virden, Socio-economic surveys indicate that usually considering the time period, we started approaching, people who are coming from–the non-voters tend to contacting the seniors residences and also places for be from lower income households or from families where travellers would usually go prior to making who have traditionally not voted. their travel plans, like snowbird associations or municipal offices, to provide information on Political factors could be the closeness of the absentee voters. competition, the appetite for change among the voters, the political activity which is occurring in that We also started our advertisement for hiring electoral division or in the province. election workers in anticipation of an election. When November 25, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 an election occurs, there are certain statutory message. And, I mean, I think every member on the requirements which we have to do, which is posting table knows that often it's more senior Manitobans the notice of election; it goes into the local that are quite prepared to vote. I know in some of the newspapers. There's also a requirement to provide blocks where there is a voting station, not only do information on–after the close of nomination, on people vote, they're down there voting by 10 a.m. in who are the official candidates, and also there is many cases. promotion around advance voting and election-day The challenge, in my view, is attracting younger voting. people, first-time voters who are eligible to step up Mr. Swan: Yes, and I thank the Chief Electoral and vote. What areas of improvement or new Officer for that. activities does Elections Manitoba foresee over the next couple of years to try to really attract and speak There was also the by-election that was held in to first-time, younger voters? The Pas in 2015, again, another large riding with some different factors. Were there any differences in Ms. Verma: So I would like to start with some the advertising and promotional efforts in that initiatives which we took for the recent general by-election from the two southern ones? election. We introduced our mobile app called Manitoba Votes 2016, which allowed users to find Ms. Verma: Yes, there is a difference which is advance voting information, election day based on the electoral division. In The Pas, it is a information, who are the candidates, the frequently large riding. It has several First Nation communities. asked questions, the important dates and some So, we hired a returning officer and assistant campaign finance information. There were around returning officer soon after the vacancy occurred, 2,000 downloads of that application. and we start networking with the different First Nation communities to understand what the We also developed and worked on our social requirement will be, how can we hire enumerators in media. There was an increase in our Twitter and those communities which will be the areas where we Facebook followers. We regularly provided updates can establish a voting place. on both Twitter and Facebook on the election activities. It was also a medium to receive questions Also, given sometimes the remoteness of the and provide responses. We had a staff person who communities and not knowing at which time the was regularly monitoring both these mediums. by-election will be held, we start making plans on alternatives of–in case for delivery of material, Looking forward, we are also–we work a lot because some communities have restricted access. with post-secondary institutions and schools. In this So, if the road access gets blocked, then we have to recent election we connected with students at make alternate arrangements for fly-in access to 14 campuses across the province in post-secondary. provide the material, to provide the training, to hire They included Assiniboia college, Booth college, the staff and to obtain the information back to our Brandon University, Canadian Mennonite office. University, Providence college, Red River, Manitoba Institute of Trades and Technology, Steinbach Bible Mr. Swan: How effective does Elections Manitoba College, university St. Boniface, University College believe that its advertising, its promotional efforts, of the North, University of Manitoba, University of are in affecting voter turnout? Winnipeg and Yellowquill College. Ms. Verma: That is a difficult question to answer, We met with the administration staff. We hosted again, because voter turnout is such a complex factor a number of student–we hosted a meeting with that it's hard to associate one reason to directly student council representatives. We met with the correlate that to the result. But what our surveys Canadian Federation of Students, worked with indicate are that there was recollection of our student services, career services, residence in– campaign advertisements; there was a support for our residence staff, graduate student organizations, advertisements, and there was a recall skill was quite Aboriginal student organizations. And these high for our promotions. consultations helped us to set up distribution Mr. Swan: Very good. And of course as we go channels for materials such as posters, brochures, along, there's always new ways that–whether it's a electronic and social media. We also participated in political party or it's a corporation or an electoral career fairs in six campuses, set up student agency–tries to attract people to recognize the information booths on voting, recruited and trained 14 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016 university students to staff the vote and advance officers. They were engaged; they were glad of the voting was held on six campuses. opportunity; and it's the first exposure to democracy for them. We also have a program called Citizen Next, which we introduced in 2011. That is–that we * (16:10) encourage parents to bring their children to vote. It And what we also find, people who start voting makes the voting place more welcoming and at an earlier age become habitual voters. So our aim removes the common barrier which has been is also, other than expanding the pool of election identified for child care. workers, is to engage high school students in So information is provided from kindergarten democracy. They become voters. They become to grade 6 to all schools in Manitoba. Apart from interested in democracy and participants going that, we have an ongoing program called student forward. information officer program, which is–we hire high Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for school students to work as information officers. that. This got started in the by-election prior to the 2011 general election. This year we had 350 high And, like certain other members in this school students take part as information officers in Legislature, I have a 16-year-old who is very 54 electoral divisions. engaged and would actually like very much the chance to vote. Our ongoing education program, Your Power to Choose, has been in effect since 2006. This election We'll talk more about referendums, but I know year, we had 296 workshops covering 6,500 students in the Scottish referendum, 16- and 17-year-olds in 52 electoral divisions. We also held a northern were actually given the right to vote. They don't have tour, which provided 37 workshops, 871 students and that right in general elections, but a determination communities in Churchill, The Pas, Thompson, Flin was made in that–I won't call it a country–in that part Flon and Norway House were targeted. of Great Britain to give 16- and 17-year-olds a position and a chance to vote on the future of their Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for a part of the world. very complete answer, and I do appreciate the effort that is being made. I did download the app on my Is extending the vote to 16- and 17-year-olds phone and, as a candidate, it's very helpful because something that has been discussed by the various the last thing you want to do is send someone who's electoral commissioners across Canada? And is this going to vote for you to the wrong place to vote; something that Elections Manitoba is interested in that's definitely not appreciated. researching and reviewing? So I do want to talk a little bit more about Ms. Verma: There was recently a plebiscite which that. I am glad that Elections Manitoba takes that was held in Prince Edward Island, and it provided very seriously. the 16- and 17-year-olds opportunity to vote. So that was an interesting initiative to see. And they also had One of the recommendations that your office has Internet voting as one of the options of voting in a made is allowing 16- and 17-year-olds to work on plebiscite. But what they did find, that the uptake campaigns, which–for Elections Manitoba, which from 16- and 17-year-olds was not that high. So it can be, first of all, very helpful at trying to find was just an observation. people who are prepared to fill a short-term position but, secondly, I presume one of the reasons for that is But at this time we have not–we don't have any to perhaps have more advocates or role models plans for reviewing the possibility of lowering the among 16- and 17-year-olds, who then may be seen voting age, and it hasn't come across in any other as leaders and encourage other young people to vote jurisdiction that we have had discussions with. once they reach the legal age. Is that fair? Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for Ms. Verma: I think that's a fair assessment. When that. we had student information officers, we do a survey, post their employment to get an understanding. Was And just to finish off the last point on that one that a position they felt comfortable doing the job? recommendation, not only is the recommendation How was their experience? And, overall, we heard that 16- and 17-year-olds be able to work for positive comments from all the student information Elections Manitoba, but also non-Canadian citizens. November 25, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15

Do we believe that would require a legislative the resources that we have. And it might reduce cost change? Or is that something that Elections too, because for each working station there is a cost Manitoba can proceed with if there was to be a for material, there is a cost for training staff, and then by-election before the law can be changed? there is a cost for the tariff for that staff. Ms. Verma: Currently, The Elections Act clearly Mr. Swan: Well, I thank the officer for that, and I'm states that positions like voting officers, assistant actually quite relieved to hear that explanation voting officers, registration officers, they all have to because certainly there have been moves in the past be eligible voters of that electoral division, which decade to provide smaller numbers of eligible voters basically means that you have to be 18 years and for each poll to try and encourage people and make older, Canadian citizen and a resident of that sure that they can–they have a reasonable chance of electoral division. getting to the polling place. And I believe in rural Manitoba the goal is to make sure that no one is There is a power for the Chief Electoral Officer more than 30 kilometres away from a polling place, to adapt the provisions, which is under section 28. although, given Manitoba's geography, we know However, that provision is more to adapt the election that's not a hundred per cent possible, but it's a goal. in case of serious exceptions. We do not want to use that power to adapt to change the employment So, just to confirm what you're saying, if, for requirement for so many categories of election example, in the constituency of Minto the idea would officials. So I believe the legislative amendment be to increase the number of people on each of the would be beneficial to make that change. voting lists in each of the polls, the intention you would still have the same number of polling places. Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for So the various schools generally that are used in the that. West End, there would still be those same number of One of the recommendations is to increase the places; there would simply be perhaps three size of the urban voting areas and the rural voting individual polls instead of four, for example, in areas: for urban areas, from 350 to 500 eligible Daniel McIntyre Collegiate or Sargent Park School. voters; and for rural areas, from 250 to 350 eligible Ms. Verma: Yes, your understanding is correct. voters. So, in a rural location, if there is only one table, Does that come out of the success of advance let's take a table for a voting area, that will not voting? Or what has driven that recommendation? change because we do not want to inconvenience the Ms. Verma: So advance voting has increased from voters in travelling to a more distant location. 11 per cent when it was introduced in 2007 that you However, in an urban location where there are, say, can vote anywhere to 25 per cent in 2016. What we six stations in a place, that may get reduced to four are anticipating is that it may, with this base of stations. We do not anticipate that it will increase, it may come up to around 40 per cent by inconvenience the voters because also looking at the the time the next general election happens. peak time, which is a couple of hours during the close or around noontime, that the lineup will not be At the current level of 350, and with a voter that significant. turnout of 57 per cent, which we had in the province, Mr. Swan: Has Elections Manitoba done any even the electoral division with the highest turnout, analysis of whether people are more likely to vote urban, was River Heights, factor in the advance based on the distance from the polling place? voting, which comes out, the voting stations are only operating at around 40 per cent of their capacity. Ms. Verma: Because of advance voting, which is Having said so, if they are working at 40 per cent of you can vote anywhere, 25 per cent of Manitobans their capacity, that's the 40 per cent increase that we vote at advance anywhere, so it's a little difficult to are recommending for a voting area, from 350 to analyze. But what we can say is that we didn't 500. receive complaints about driving too far other than in probably Transcona electoral division because there Rurally and urban, the intent is not to reduce the was limited schools that we were able to find to number of voting locations. The voting locations place the voting stations. would probably remain the same. The intent is to reduce the number of stations in a voting area, Mr. Swan: Well, I–this has all been a very good because that will lead to more optimum utilization of conversation. I was concerned when I saw this 16 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016 particular item, but from our discussion I'm quite everything proceeds as expected with a call for an satisfied that Elections Manitoba has thought this election in September of 2020 for an October 6th through, and I understand now what's being election, what is the earliest date that a voter would requested. be able to receive an absentee ballot for that election? I can say that, even within a very dense geographic constituency like Minto, the odds of Ms. Verma: So, in the current legislation, it works someone going to vote do depend on how close they that before the writ is issued, all absentee appli- are to a polling place, especially from Maryland and cations have to come to the Chief Electoral Officer, Sherbrook Street to Langside, I know it does make a so, basically the head office of Elections Manitoba. big difference in the voter turnout whether somebody When the writ is issued, we send all the applications has to go a block or two or even six or seven blocks to the returning office. They can process the if you don't have a vehicle. I expect that's equally the applications, but they don't mail out the application case for members who represent rural constituencies. kits 'til the time nominations close. We know that even 30 kilometres we would like to If a person comes in person to the returning be shorter, but I know Elections Manitoba is office, they may be able to receive an absentee kit interested in continuing to provide as many choices without a list of candidates. So, technically, no ballot as possible. can be received unless the nominations close, which Does the Chief Electoral Officer see any other leaves us to–a period of three weeks or less to mail potential expansions of how advance voting is the ballots and to receive the ballots back. conducted? We know it's very helpful to have The other concern which we have is, if they are universities and colleges as polling places; shopping travelling internationally to a place in Asia, Africa or malls have become a very, very popular place for Europe, we will be able to spend the money to send people of all ages to go and cast their votes, I believe them by priority post so that they can receive the the airport had a polling place. Are there any other ballot as soon as possible. However, the voters do ideas–are there ideas that have come from other express concerns that for them to send the mail back jurisdictions as to how advance voting could even be as priority post is very expensive. On an average, we expanded again for the next election? spend, in postage, around $150 to $200 for such Ms. Verma: So we had 293 advance voting absentee kits. locations in Manitoba, which is, as compared to the federal, the number of advance voting locations was What we are proposing is that as soon as a writ significantly higher. We met the criteria of no voter is issued, an absentee kit and the ballot be mailed and has to travel more than 30 kilometres anywhere in be accepted. A consequential result of that would be the province–across the province. that on an absentee ballot the name of the candidate or the name of the registered party or independent be * (16:20) indicated. So you do not have to wait until the close This election we introduced high traffic voting of nomination to get the list of candidates. Currently, area in Health Science Centre, which was quite you can only write the name of the candidate or the successful, so that is one area that we are looking at name of the candidate along with the party. The expanding to other major hospitals. Out of 28,000 party name cannot be accepted as a valid ballot. non-resident advance voter–voting, 18,000 came Mr. Swan: Now, we know, and I won't mention the from these 13 high-traffic locations. So, yes, you're party, but one party had trouble keeping their other right that these malls, universities, airport and Health candidates last time, so what if somebody wrote in Sciences Centre were all popular locations. for that party and there was no candidate for that Mr. Swan: Yes, well, I thank the Chief Electoral party? Would that be considered a spoiled ballot or a Officer, and I certainly look forward to working rejected ballot, or what would happen? together and having more ideas on how we can provide–what we can do to make it most likely that Ms. Verma: In that case, it will be considered to be Manitobans will take the time to cast their vote. a rejected ballot. I'd like to talk a little bit about absentee ballots Mr. Swan: And are there any other changes, then, to and to talk a little bit about what's being sought and the absentee balloting process that Elections how it works at the present time. Right now, if Manitoba is recommending? November 25, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17

Ms. Verma: No. These will be the changes to Ms. Verma: Currently, there are three hours which change the timeline of the delivery and acceptance of the employers must provide. We do not promote or the absentee ballots, and the second would be, as advertise on the three hours' requirement. But we did soon as the returning office is open, then the have a voters' rights posters which were placed in applications can be received directly by the returning different voting stations during advance and election office. So, in case we are having target registration, day which mentions that employers have to provide even at that time, the returning officer can receive three hours. these applications and process them but not mail out Mr. Swan: I do thank the Chief Electoral Officer for the application ballot. They can verify, check if any that. additional information is needed. Now, Elections Manitoba has recommended that Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer for a referendum act with some general rules that that. would govern any referendums in Manitoba to be One of the recommendations is to reduce the developed. And, on page 43 of the 2015 report, there voting hours on general election day. We know that are a number of questions that Elections Manitoba Manitoba's polls are open from 7 a.m. until 8 p.m., hope such an act would clarify, including–well, I which, as you've pointed out, is the longest voting won't read through them, we can all see them on day of any jurisdiction. And we know it's a long day page 43 of the report. for staff who are involved. Do we have statistics or a Does Elections Manitoba believe the same bans number of how many Manitobans actually chose to on contributions by both unions and corporations to vote from 7 a.m. until 8 a.m.? political parties ought to be part of any referendum If you don't have that handy, we could always law that could be introduced? receive that information after the fact. Ms. Verma: The purpose of our recommendation is Ms. Verma: We did not capture that information. So to bring to the attention of the legislators that there– there are no statistics about it; however, anecdotally, these are some of the questions which need to be that we were advised by the returning officers and addressed in legislation. We do not have a position Elections workers that the traffic was very low. on what the legislation needs to be. We leave that to the legislators. There's also, even though we advertise that election day opens at 7 a.m., there is confusion with Mr. Swan: That's fair enough. the voters because advance voting is 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.; I know that in other jurisdictions, notably our municipally, it's 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.; federally, it's friends in Quebec, there's often been issues about the 8:30 to 8:30. So having election day at 7:00 doesn't wording of a referendum. register that well with many voters. Is there any sort of best practice or common way The other issue is, apart from being a long day, from jurisdictions that have had referendums to we also have some logistic issues of opening the determine the actual nature of the question that goes voting stations at 7 a.m. Schools are usually–or the on the ballot? janitors are usually not available that early, so we have to make significant arrangements to ensure that Ms. Verma: The referendum, most of the juris- we have access to these locations. There have been dictions have a referendum legislation, and it varies. many cases where the voting officials have been And it will depend upon, have they–the legislation there at 6:30, but they had to wait for the location to includes a committee which needs to be formed, or be opened, which delays the opening of the voting which other authority will be determining that place. question and what the process will be. So there are certain options which are available. Mr. Swan: And just remind me, what is the provision now employers must give employees a If you would like, I can provide you with a more certain amount of time to vote? Can the Chief detailed response subsequently. Electoral Officer just remind me how much time is that? And what efforts are made in the course of an Mr. Swan: I think that would be helpful, because I election to remind employees–employers of their think this will be a conversation that we'll be having obligation? again. 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016

I mean, some cases, there are general refer- I'm just coming to the end of my questions, and I endums which are set out in legislation. Sometimes a believe that Ms. Lamoureux has some questions and referendum may come up by design. It may be a some of my colleagues have a few questions as well. particular question that arises, as we saw recently in We talked a little bit about the Arthur-Virden, Prince Edward Island. Morris and The Pas by-elections that are contained in In your view, how do considerations of fairness these two reports. Were there any recorded cases of and accuracy impact the way in this–in which those voter fraud or any other infractions in these referendum questions are posed? by-elections? Ms. Verma: Could I ask the member to expand on Ms. Verma: To my knowledge, there were no the question, please? complaints which we received on any voter fraud or irregularity in these by-elections. The commissioner Mr. Swan: Sure. I sort of took it from your answer may have received some, but I'm not aware of those. that there is no set way that the various electoral commissions determine how the wording of the Mr. Swan: Fair enough. question will be. There has been some talk and some moves in Can you comment, though, on what Manitoba to move towards what could be described considerations should be taken into account when as a Manitoba ID, which would possibly combine a framing the question that people will be voting on? Manitoba driver's licence and a health card. In your opinion, would that be something that would be Ms. Verma: So it's usually not the electoral agency helpful to the ongoing work that Elections Manitoba which determines the question. It's usually a will do to maintain a permanent voters list? committee which is established by the Legislative Assembly who establishes the question. Ms. Verma: I believe a central repository of infor- mation which has reliable and credible information * (16:30) will certainly assist in updating and maintaining of While establishing the question, one needs to be register. I'm not aware of what the requirements mindful of the fact that it should be clear, it should would be for that Manitoba ID card, so I can't be concise and sometimes not too complicated. It comment on it. But any resource of information that also should be such that a yes and no response can be we can have for reliable information, current and provided on that question because, usually, for a accurate, would be an assistance to establishing the referendum, the two options are yes and no. registry. Mr. Swan: I take it, every year is there a conference Mr. Swan: Does the Chief Electoral Officer believe of chief electoral officers and staff at which you're that it would be useful to have Elections Manitoba's able to share these ideas and tell, I suppose, war input in creating a Manitoba ID for the purposes, stories from your own jurisdiction about what's been first of all, of assisting Elections Manitoba, in working well and what hasn't? maintaining that list, and, secondly, in cases where people do attend without being on the list, as ID for Ms. Verma: Yes, our office participates in an annual voting? Would those–would that be something that conference of Canadian election officials. Similar to Elections Manitoba would like to be involved in? other independent offices, this conference is hosted by different jurisdictions on a rotational basis. We Ms. Verma: I think we welcome the opportunity to do discuss best practices, new initiatives, recom- collaborate on such an initiative. mendations, technology which has been introduced Mr. Swan: All right. I believe Ms. Lamoureux has a or any other theme which might be of interest across few questions as well. the country. Ms. Cindy Lamoureux (Burrows): Thank you, I We also meet once a year at a conference of just appreciate that, and thank you, Ms. Verma, for the chief electoral officers, which is hosted by joining us here today. Elections Canada, on matters such as the register or any other items which may come from the Canadian Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the election officials conference. impression that the electoral boundaries will be changing between now and the next provincial Mr. Swan: I thank the Chief Electoral Officer. election. November 25, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19

Ms. Verma: An electoral boundary commission is will be working on a register as well as the scheduled for 2018. The boundaries commission is boundaries commission, timing is of extreme held once every 10 years. The last commission was importance. Ideally, if we can complete the work on held in 2008. So the next commission will be in the register prior to the start of the commission, that 2018. would help make a strong foundation for the register. The boundaries commission consists of five Once the boundary commission work is members. That would be the Chief Justice of completed, then we can start our work on for election Manitoba, university president of Manitoba, preparation for the 2020 general election. university president of Brandon and University Ms. Lamoureux: Thank you for your answer. College of the North president and myself. My colleague from Minto touched on this too, Ms. Lamoureux: If the boundaries are changed, briefly. With the one-hour change, opening the polls then, will that affect any of the recommendations, or starting at 8 a.m. rather than 7 a.m., I know there's no would the recommendations affect the boundary statistics showing the voter turnout between that changes? hour, but if we want to improve voter turnout, I have Ms. Verma: So I believe you're referring to the a hard time understanding why that could be a good recommendations relating to the permanent register. thing. So, in a permanent register, usually there are two I see your point in the consistency. People are separate components that we'd be dealing with: one confused as it is referring to hours and when the is voter information, and one is address information. polls are open, but is there room to maybe look and And the boundaries form a layer over these two be able to work with both municipal and federal information. So, if you have to assume there are two government to plan a set time for all polls, for all databases that we are working on, we match the elections, to eliminate confusion? information that you as a voter, where you'll be residing to the address and then overlaying it with Ms. Verma: So the federal election, municipal the boundary information. So that information of election and the provincial election, we all work your individual voter or the residence doesn't change. from different legislation. And the timing of What impacts, what gets changed, is where–which election-day hours are set by the respective electoral division you reside in, which voting area legislation. Currently, municipal is 8:00 to 8:00, and will you be residing in and which location you'll be if we change hours to 8:00 to 8:00, we will be voting in. consistent with them. So, after the boundaries commission, there will Federally, it depends on the time zones. So be substantial work which our office will need to do Elections Canada has different election hours based in order to reassign the voters and the addresses to on the different time zones, and the Central Time the new boundaries, redraw all the maps, which are zone falls as 8:30 to 8:30. If we have to make any around 3,000 maps for the province, and also, the changes to the federal legislation, that will be beyond hiring of the returning officers and assistant returning our scope. It will be a federal matter to be dealt with officers will need to be delayed 'til the time the new at that level. boundaries have been established. Ms. Lamoureux: I can appreciate that. Ms. Lamoureux: I guess I don't want to be duplicating work. Is it best to have these So the idea of collecting data from 16- and recommendations to voters lists implemented now, 17-year-olds, is it practised in other provinces? or would it be better to wait until after the provincial Ms. Verma: The bill which was tabled yesterday by ridings' electoral boundaries have been changed? the federal government is going to allow Elections Ms. Verma: So it will be helpful to have the Canada to obtain information for the age of 14 to 17, Manitoba voter register amendments come in as soon so it will be a practice which will be there. And there as possible, because we will need a year to two to are other jurisdictions who are also recommending a establish this register and to test it. Having said that, similar approach to receive information on future the work of boundaries commission and the register voters or eligible voters, and the reason is that the are independent of each other, but because we are a current data is poor for that section of age category limited-staff office and it's the same resources that for voters who've become from 18 to 24, and it's also 20 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016 going to have–give us an opportunity to connect with for and write down the name of that candidate in the the voters when they become eligible voters. write-in ballot. That write-in ballot goes in a white envelope, which is called the secrecy envelope, and Ms. Lamoureux: Are there any further plans to have that white envelope is then placed into a yellow young people engaged? I really liked the list that you envelope, which has my name, my electoral division, were able to rattle off earlier, and I made notes of all where I voted and for which electoral division I of them, but new ideas, new initiatives that will be voted. This is marked so that my ballot can go to the taking effect for the upcoming election. right electoral division to be counted in Transcona, Ms. Verma: We are in the process of debriefing, and and then the recommendation which we have that we we will be having a strategic planning session next allow the first envelope to be opened at 6 p.m., the year. So, based on the survey responses, the ballot is still secure in the white envelope. So, at the debriefing that we have from our head office and the time of the count, if the intent of the voter is clear, returning officers, we'll be reviewing our current then the ballot is counted. strategies and working on the new ones. We also However, if there were two Cindy's and they just strive to remain current with practices which are write the first name Cindy, then the intent of the happening in other jurisdictions. The mobile app was voter will not be clear. Then the ballot will need to something new among provincial jurisdictions. It be rejected. was introduced by City of Winnipeg and that–when we saw that, we thought that might be a good fit for Mr. (Fort Rouge): I'd like to thank the our elections too. So we are in the process of Chief Electoral Officer. You're certainly very poised receiving more information and will be open to any and your command of the facts seems to verge on ideas or suggestions which you all may have. mastery, so it's very, very impressive. * (16:40) I wanted to return to some of the comments you Ms. Lamoureux: Last question, and I really enjoyed made about the plebiscite in Prince Edward Island that mobile app as well. I remember I can recall that included online voting. I was curious. Why don't pulling it out during the election and showing it to we use online voting in Manitoba? people at the doors while door knocking, super convenient. Ms. Verma: Online voting requires certain Last question. Could you explain the difference principles to be maintained. Usually, when you vote in the ballot between advance voting and election during a regular election process, you ensure that day? I remember hearing different things about the there is secrecy of the ballot is maintained, so the election: you have to spell the candidate's name out; voter goes behind the screen to mark the ballot. The you have to spell it correctly; you just have to spell it voter is identified when a ballot has been issued. You so it sounds correct? Could you explain that a little can only vote once because your name is struck off bit? the voters list. There is a way to verify the process in case there is a recount. That we can–we have the Ms. Verma: Sure. Advance voting happens in two paper ballots. We can count the ballots. We can show ways. Because we have the ability to vote anywhere, how you have voted. And then there is accessibility, there is a provision called a regular advance voting, which is achieved through different ways, options which is also known as resident advance voting, and of how you can cast your ballot. You can do it then there is non-resident advance voting. So, if I'm a homebound; you can do absentee. There are ways for resident of Minto and I go to an advance voting people with disabilities. You can vote regular on station in Minto, I will vote as resident using a election day or advance. regular ballot, which has the names of the candidates preprinted on it, and then you can mark a cross on When we look at Internet voting, these your choice of a candidate and it goes in a ballot box. fundamental principles need to be maintained, and However, if I'm a resident of Transcona going to still now the technology or the voter confidence is Minto to vote, I will be voting as a non-resident not there to address all these principles. So take, for voter. I'll be given a write-in ballot, which is a blank example, the secrecy of the ballot. How do we know ballot along with the list of candidates of Transcona the person who is marking the ballot is the voter or if candidates. Then, based on the list of the candidates, somebody has taken your password and your security I have to select which candidate I would like to vote question and marked the ballot? November 25, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 21

Then it comes also to the question of I think, you know, as the availability of verifiability. In a recount, you have the paper ballots biometric, either algorithms which recognize bio- which are present in front of you which shows how metric input through smart phones and computers are you've marked. Can a system be hacked? Yes, a more widely distributed, or actually the sensors in system can be hacked. So how much assurance can those devices is more able to receive biometric input, you have through Internet voting to ensure that the some of those concerns might be addressed. way you have marked the ballot, the system has So I'm curious. I take it from your answer there's recorded in the same way without compromising the already an–you know, I've got a good idea of how secrecy of your ballot process? So these are some of you're going to respond to this question, but I just the concerns which are there across all jurisdictions would like to know: How will Elections Manitoba and federally too. monitor developments in this field going forward and Many studies have been conducted. There was take the research in the field into account when an extensive study which was conducted in British deciding how future elections should be held? Columbia. There was another report which was Ms. Verma: So we stay current with the best produced by Nova Scotia outlining the same practices which are happening in other jurisdictions. concerns. Even for the recent PEI plebiscite, I and another Yes, people ask the question: When banking can office member was present in PEI to observe the happen online, why can't voting happen online? election. We were there at the voting places on the– where the regular voting was happening, and we In banking, the error rate is recognizable. But the were talking to the election people about what's their banker or the person who is banking is accepting that take-up on the Internet voting. So there was some risk also. concerns which was raised there. Is–are the voters and the officials comfortable We are also keeping current on the technology assuming that risk that the vote can be rigged? Will it which is available around Internet voting. We've had impact the integrity of the voting process? Will it a discussion with the vendor who was supplying the undermine the public confidence in the voting Internet software voting mechanism in PEI. There is process if that risk is not assumed, if the risk is not a cost factor also which is associated. expected and the risk is not addressed properly? These are some of the questions which There is some rationale which can be explored administrators face. going forward using Internet voting for absentee voters or for people in the Armed Forces as an option Then there is also the technology issue. Do we for the absentee ballots. But there's still a lot of have a foolproof technology available to address this research which needs to be held–to be done to issue? The plebiscite, if you take for the Prince explore that option. Edward Island, that–the result was not going to be binding. So the error rate, even if it was there, the Mr. Kinew: So I take it that you're on top of the risk was less because the result was not binding. field and will continue monitoring developments. And you're obviously very knowledgeable in the The other issue which people talk about Internet area. voting is accessibility. But the voter turnout in PEI So there was another, I guess, not under the was only 36 per cent. So having Internet voting jurisdiction of Elections Manitoba, but during the available still didn't increase the voter turnout. last federal election, turnout on some First Nations Actually, it–the voter turnout was significantly less, increased dramatically to the point where many First because PEI leads the voter turnout in Canada. The Nations polling stations reported running out of voter turnout in PEI is usually around 80 per cent. So ballots. This happened in my home community for the plebiscite it was 36 per cent. of Onigaming in Ontario; Shoal Lake; a few But as I've said earlier, voter turnout is a communities in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta as complex issue. It's not just about accessibility. well. Maybe there was no interest in the plebiscite. There I met with officials from Elections Canada after could be other reasons associated with it too. the federal election, and, you know, they explained some of their–the process by which they estimate Mr. Kinew: Thank you for that answer. what turnout is going to be and then thereby make 22 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016 decisions on how many ballots to distribute to a Ms. Verma: When we compiled the voters list given polling location and, you know, talked about through door-to-door enumeration, and then the some of the processes that they're going to put into boundaries are the same, we compare the infor- place to accommodate record turnout, you know, if it mation to the previous voters list. That helps us plan shows up unexpectedly. our revision activities. Even after the revision, if our voters list is still short from the previous voters list, So I was just wondering if you could talk a bit we plan for registration officers to be available on about, you know, what Elections Manitoba might election day and during advance, if required. And have learned from some of the failings of elections– then we plan for the ballots based on the higher that Elections Canada has acknowledged and what number, rather than the lower number. So we do take steps would be taken to ensure that if there are into account the current activity of registration and dramatic increases in areas with traditionally low compare it to the previous election. turnout, whether we can ensure that everyone's, you know, democratic franchise is enabled. In this–for this 41st general election, we also received information from Elections Canada. We had * (16:50) heard of this issue, so we wanted to plan for any contingency. We compared our list with what Ms. Verma: Actually, we supply the ballots not Elections Canada had to identify the areas of gap and based on the turnout because we don't want to be in made adequate provisions. the business of predicting the turnout. It is a–it's voters right to vote and each voter should be having Mr. Kinew: Yes, the next question was just going to the right to vote at the–with the choice of how they be whether you would, you know, communicate with want to vote, when they want to vote and where they Elections Canada on the matter. So you've already want to vote. So the material that we provide for done so. So I'd just like to thank you for your time. each voting station is based on the voters list of that Madam Chairperson: Okay, and now I'd like to voting area, plus a 20 per cent contingency. recognize Ms. Morley-Lecomte. Mr. Kinew: So just to be clear, if that 20 per cent– Ms. Janice Morley-Lecomte (Seine River): Thank you have a ballot for every person in that poll plus you. I just have a couple of questions. 20 per cent in case there is a bunch of people from outside of that polling location showing up to vote. Photo identification, are there any requirements for this when you're voting? Ms. Verma: So on election day you can only vote in Ms. Verma: So under our legislation, if you vote the voting area that you have been assigned to. So, if during advance voting, either as a resident or as a the voting area has a list of 300 voters and we know non-resident voter, you're required to show ID. ID that 20 people have voted ahead of time, so the requirements are listed under section 2 of The number of ballots which will be going will be Elections Act. It basically states that if you can bring 280 plus a contingency of 20 per cent, to allow for one government-issued photo ID or any other two swear-ons to also have the right to vote without pieces of ID. If none of your IDs have an address, having any shortage of ballots. then you can sign a declaration. On election day, if Mr. Kinew: I believe some of the challenge came you're on the voters list, then you don't need to from the fact that voting lists on First Nations were provide ID. If you're not on the election–on the incomplete and there were a dramatic increase in voters list, then you can be sworn on with the the number of people who either were sworn–had same ID requirements, either one government-issued a swear-in process or presented, you know, photo ID or any other two pieces of ID. And if non-traditional forms of identification, like you're–any ID doesn't have an address, you can have prescription pill bottles and things like that. a declaration. Ms. Morley-Lecomte: Is this similar or different So I was just wondering in cases where the from other jurisdictions? voting list may have challenges due to, you know, shifting demographics or, you know, census, you Ms. Verma: There are seven jurisdictions in Canada know, and income tax data being incomplete, what who require ID on election day and there are seven sort of measures would be taken by Elections jurisdictions who do not require ID on election day. Manitoba in those situations? So that probably addresses one part of your question. November 25, 2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 23

What are the ID requirements across Canada? resources should have certain restrictions so that they They vary. Our Manitoba legislation is one of the are not used for partisan purposes. It is not meant to most inclusive legislations because we do not stop government business. It is meant to stop partisan prescribe which ID is required. And it also gives the activities during the time period where com- option to the voter; in case the ID card doesn't have munication can be used as a medium to influence the an address, they can do a declaration of their address. voters. Ms. Morley-Lecomte: Okay, so would there be Madam Chairperson: So the time is nearing challenges around making sure the person voting is 5 o'clock, and earlier the committee had decided to the person with or without the ID? sit until 5 and revisit. Ms. Verma: So, during advance voting, of course, What is the will of the committee? there's an ID requirement. Before, there was the Mr. Teitsma: I believe Ms. Lecomte is nearing the requirement that you could vote anywhere; advance end of her questions. [interjection] She is done. didn't require ID. And I think the ID requirement was introduced because you can vote anywhere. And, I have just a few questions to ask. So, if it's the because you can vote anywhere, the full provincial will of the committee, then we can–perhaps give me, voters list is not available, so if at the 293 locations you know, 10 minutes or so to get through a couple you only have the voters list of your resident of questions and then. electoral division, and that was a means to ensure Madam Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee that voters can vote anywhere. to allow the questioning to continue for 10 minutes? Our list is created through enumeration. It's a [Agreed] door-to-door enumeration. You go to the door; you Mr. Teitsma: Just a question around delegate fees receive the information from the voter. There is a for political conventions and conferences. My level of confidence that the voter will not be lying to understanding is that fees that are paid are you and giving you false information. But, having considered a contribution to the extent that they said that, we haven't had any complaints or any exceed reasonable expenses. How do you go about prosecutions on voter fraud in the history of determining reasonable expenses? Manitoba. So probably that provides a level of confidence that the voter fraud or voting Ms. Verma: So this is an exception which is stated irregularities are low or nil. in the contribution definition of what is not a contribution: any fee which covers the reasonable Ms. Morley-Lecomte: Different kind of question: expenses of a convention is not considered to be a Over the years you've had a number of opportunities contribution. to look into different matters regarding section 91–or sorry–92(1) and (2), section (2), of The Election The legislation is silent around the definition of Financing Act. Can you share with the committee what is reasonable, and the legislation is also silent some of your insights into this section, given your on what a party can spend on during a non-election experience in this interpretation? year or outside the election period. There are–the spending limits are basically during an election Ms. Verma: So section 92 deals with government period, and there are advertising spending limits advertising. That's the section you are referring to. outside the election period in the year of a fixed-date And government advertising section restricts election. advertising or publication in a by-election and in a general election. The time period for a by-election is * (17:00) during the election period. In a set-date election, it is So the intent of the legislation is to ensure there 90 days before election day. is a level playing field which monitors the So my last committee appearance, we–I contributions which are being received by parties or provided a statement on section 92 on what–how we candidates. What we review from a compliance understand this provision is meant to be interpreted perspective: Is the delegation fee reasonable or not? and what is the intent behind it. Our understanding is We take into account the cost which the party reports that the intent behind section 92 is that public against the income which it has received from the resources should not be used for partisan purposes. delegate fees. If the income is around the same as the And government who is the authority of using public expenses–because sometimes when you're budgeting 24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 25, 2016 it's hard to predict and get to an accurate balanced Ms. Verma: The convention fees for an annual number. If it's around the same range, it's considered convention of a leadership contest a party reports on to be reasonable. If there is significant profit which is their annual return. It could be depending upon the being made from the fees, then the delegate fee has amount of the revenue; it could be a matter which we exceeded the expenses and there is contribution. review in more detail if we have–it's a matter of concern, there have been some allegations or some Mr. Teitsma: Okay, and for the sake of not other information that we have received. So it offending anybody, I'll use big business as an will depend on how the compliance review gets example maybe of how this could be abused, and this conducted. is my concern, if there's lack of clarity around reasonability. So, for example, if a large corporation However, if there is a complaint, then the matter decided that they would like to fund a Progressive can go directly to the commissioner. We do work Conservative political convention in entirety–now, with the commissioner in providing the information corporate donations are not allowed; union donations which we receive. So any annual return that we are not allowed to political entities, and that's receive, any supporting documentation that we something that I certainly think is good–good for our receive, if the commissioner requires it for his or her electoral process. investigation purposes, it's provided to the commissioner. So, in this context, because they're not considered contributions, they would be allowed to Madam Chairperson: Hearing no further questions, do that as long as the amount that they contributed I will now put the questions on each report. wouldn't exceed the total cost of the convention. So Annual Report of Elections Manitoba for the we can charge each delegate five bucks. We could year ending December 31st, 2014, Including conduct charge this one delegate who happens to be a of the 2014 Arthur-Virden and Morris by-elections– corporation the entirety of the cost of the convention, pass. and you would have no way of knowing that that was inappropriate or judging it because you're just Shall the Annual Report of Elections Manitoba looking at the total contributions versus the total for the year ending December 31st, 2015, including expenses, which would match in that example. the conduct of The Pas by-election, pass? Ms. Verma: The definition of contribution is goods Some Honourable Members: Pass. or services or money received without benefit. And Some Honourable Members: No. that term, without benefit, is critical, while reviewing the definition of contribution. So if the corporation Madam Chairperson: I hear a no. The report is not didn't–or the party or the–the party didn't receive any passed. benefit from the delegate fee, then as for the Before we rise, it would be appreciated if legislation, there is no contribution. However, the members would leave behind any unused copies of delegate fee is usually the same across for all the 2015 report so that it may be collected and reused delegates. If it comes to our attention that one at the next meeting. delegate has been charged significantly higher as compared to the other, then the matter will be further The hour being 5:05, what is the will of the reviewed. What the outcome would be, I can't talk committee? about that because that will be speculation. But it An Honourable Member: Committee rise. will depend from case–on case-to-case basis. Madam Chairperson: Agreed? [Agreed] Mr. Teitsma: So is that something you would proactively check or is that something that would Committee rise. have to be reported to you or to the commissioner in order to investigate? COMMITTEE ROSE AT: 5:05 p.m.

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