INTERVIEW Anthony Braxton Interview and Photos by Ken Weiss

Anthony Braxton, at age 64. is a tenured pro­ AB: Thank you for your question. First, I was understanding that there would be no fessor at Wesleyan University and one of the would say, with all things considered, I do not monetary gain from my music effort. After most prolific composers and recorded musi­ see my work as jazz music, or as an affirma­ coming to terms with that decision, I have cians alive. Classified as a jaz:: avant-gardist, tion of the jazz tradition. I have respect for since gone forth to do my music and, when a title Braxton bristles ar. he could easily he those people who refer to their work as related ever possible, I have tried to document given deemed a modern classical composer. Heavilv to the jazz tradition, but I can most ce1iainly aspects of my creative work. Documentation, influenced bv master musicians such as say with honesty and gratitude that, while I for me, is not an economic consideration that Warne Marsh, Dave Brubeck, John Coltrane, have total respect for the idiomatic traditions, results in lots of monies coming in to me for Paul Desmond, as H"Cll as John Cage and my work has come about because of a love of my work. but rather, a form of closure. Once a Karlheinz Sruckhausen, Braxton has long Europe, Africa, Arabia, Asia and the world of given target project is documented and distrib­ been the target of criticism for his incorpora­ Hispania. My work is part of an effort to re­ uted, I can then go on to the next areas of my tirm of "European" concepts into his work. late to composite reality and universal im­ music system. In a career that has been 40- His sophisticated compositions are highlv pulses so as we start our interview, I would years, I have been fmiunate to have had many theoretical hut leave .\pace .fi!r improvisation like to say that 1 am not a jazz musician, I'm experiences and as far as my music system is within set guidelines. Certain pieces also com­ not connected with the antebellum umbrella concerned, I have tried, from the beginning. to bine lil'ely visuals in thejimn of cosrwnes and and its related business complexes that dic­ define my work in a way where I could talk of group mol'ements. Even his compositional tates reality for the Jazz community and the the components of those particulars that were litles and musical notation are unique, involv­ world of popular music. This mis­ being manipulated and to also talk of the evo­ ing diagrams and Cl)'ptic notation and colors. classification of my work has been part of the lution of those components from both a target Never one /o srand still, Braxton comple!es a complexities of my experiences of the last 40- isolated perspective, a unified composite or music system and moves on to 1/ze next chal­ years. Going on (to address your question), conversion perspective as well as from a lenging project. based on di{ferenl rules and yes, I have been fortunate to document differ­ transpositional perspective that would help the logics. I le is a rare inslmmenla!ist, having ent aspects of my music. In many ways, I can friendly experiencer interested in my work to mastered the saxophone familv, fi'om sopran­ relate to the central character of Rhcingold in see which way 1 was going. I took that ap­ ino /o the monstrous contrabass saxophone, Richard Wagner's Ring cycle. It is in the pre­ proach because in the beginning, it was clear along with various clarinets, .flutes and the liminary performance of Rheingold, where the to me that I was very fortunate to be alive in piano. His work combines modern themes and dwarf Alberich, makes the decision to give up the '60s, a time period of restructural change science. along with rich extrapolations drawn love (after humiliation) and to accept power and transformation, and a time period, in .fi"om the complete lif(:/ine ofja::z. instead. For me, the gambit was to give up the many ways, which corresponds exactly to the components that v,;e find ourselves dealing with in this time period.

"I can understand that there were and are Jl: Your landmark recording For /11to was the first solo sax recording ever and is credited people who might not like my music, but I with creating a new language, so to speak, for the saxophone. How hard was it to convince found it amazing as a young man, how eager the record company to not only release it, but to release it as a double album? They were some of these people were to simply destroy taking quite a risk, this music was challenging me and to stop my ability to make a living for the time. AB: 1 was fortunate in that time period to be just because they didn't like my music." working with Robert Koester of Delmark Re­ cords. The project was not offered to him in a way that would make it unreasonable finan­ cially, rather like the 100 other projects that Jl: Unlike the typical jazz musician, who idea of making money from music perform­ would take place after. It wasn't presented as struggles to get his or her music out there, ance (or recording profits for that matter) and a financial dynamic that would translate into you've managed to record on greater than 230 concentrate instead on doing the best I could lots of money for Mr. Koester, it was basically albums in a 40-year period. That's an amazing do to advance my work - because as I sur­ given to him. I was fortunate that he believed accomplishment, especially for music that is veyed the world of performance dynamics for enough in my work to put it out. As far as the so challenging and genre defying. How do creative music, it became very clear that I solo musics are concerned, I usually talk of you account for your success in documenting wasn't going to make any money and so part the solo music or language music strategies as your work? of the gambit of my decision to go forward the genesis foundation of my music system.

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Genesis foundation in the sense that the ele­ relevant questions. The music system that I've to records of Art Pepper and the great Sonny ment syntax components that comprise the been working on for the past 40-years was Criss, who no one talks about anymore. I re­ language music strategies would be the mate­ never approached as a rejection of anything; joiced in the music of Jackie McLean. There I rials that l would use to inter-feed throughout I've approached my work as an affirmation of discovered the music of the great Warne the whole system of the tri-centric thought world creativity. I consider myself a profes­ Marsh, the great tenor player whose work unit model that l have been working on for the sional student of music, not a guy who's when historically viewed from a mature per­ last 40-years. As such, at the time of that re­ formed. As such, I have tried on occasion, spective will one day be seen as equal to the cording, I had been and continue to be a stu­ when possible, to work with the traditional great work of Sonny Rollins and John Col­ dent of the music of John Coltrane, of Sun Ra, materials from my own value systems, and my trane in the 1950's. Warne Marsh' music rep­ of Arnold Schoenberg and Karlheinz Stock­ value systems are not always respected by the resented a very different concept of chromati­ hausen, but I was also a student of the great jazz critics. These are value systems concern­ cism and phrase construction logics and so, work of Yannis Xenakis and John Cage and of ing rhythmic logics, harmonic logics and ap­ yea, I'm grounded in the tradition, I still love the great music of Olivier Messiaen, Eric Dol­ plications, instrumentation and instrumenta­ the tradition. Two weeks ago, l ordered seven phy and Duke Ellington. In the '60s, among tion dynamics. As for the question regarding new CDs of Bob Dylan from Amazon.com. I the challenges that creative musicians, like working with a cross sectional spectrum of want to go back and re-review and re-examine myself, were confronted with was the chal­ musicians and using a wide variance of instru­ this great master because his work was very lenge of what constitutes identity. What con­ mentation, I've tried to learn from people like important to me as is, of course, the great stitutes the idea of identity from a trans­ the great visionary pioneer Miles Davis. Miles work of Captain Beefheart. I'm a Beefheart idiomatic perspective as opposed to an idio­ Davis would advance his work forward with kind of guy! The tradition has always been matic perspective? This was so because in the his great quintet with Red Garland, the great important to me, it's just that my relationship time frame of the '60s, more and more, evolu­ Philly Joe Jones, Paul Chambers and of to the tradition was not a generic relationship tion involved taking into account music from course, Mr. Coltrane. That quintet advanced that started at New Orleans and advanced up more than one idiom and music from outside the music to such an incredible level that to 1965. Indeed, I even disagree with present of America. We were discovering the great Miles Davis suddenly changed personnel. day concepts about New Orleans' significance work of Ravi Shankar for example. My gen­ That decision to change was part of the secret in the greater scheme of the composite music, eration would come to see that the past was of his evolution. Don't get me wrong, I love but that of course is a different question, so let more important and more relevant then one the work of the great Dave Brubeck, I am me move on and deal with your question. would have assumed and it was important to currently in a period of going back and getting Tradition, restructurism, I was interested to learn about the music of Duke Ellington and J. all of the early music of Fantasy Records and take the tradition and be a part of those forces S. Bach. So it was in being in the center of Columbia with Paul Desmond. Mr. Brubeck that would refashion the components of tradi­ these changes that I would ask the question, has been one of my main role models and tion with respect to mechanics, with respect to 'what is trans-idiomatic identity, what is influences, although his decision to have a conceptual dynamics and with respect to cor­ trans-idiomatic syntax, and how can that in­ quartet for twenty-something-years was a respondences, and to fashion a music that formation serve me as an instrumentalist/ different decision than the route of my experi­ would demonstrate what those components composer who had made the decision to em­ ences. Even so, his work is profound and could mean from a composite perspective. I brace creative music as a life's work, as a beautiful and greatly disrespected, as far as should also say that when I use the phrase tri­ spiritual position and as a person interested in I'm concerned. I'm shocked at how little the centric thought unit model, I am referring to a science and architectonic evolution. critical community values the work of this model that demonstrates a context of informa­ great master. His only diversion from the path tion, that being the tri-axiom writings, a music system, which at this point in time consist of 400 or something compositions, and also a "I am among the luckiest people who have system of transpositions, ritual and ceremonial musics and extended methodologies. This is ever lived because I was able to find some­ what I have devoted my life to.

thing that helped me to understand JI: Since you brought up New Orleans, per­ haps you could extrapolate on what you meant the wonder and beauty of life. when saying its importance to the music is over emphasized. Now a days, after Hurricane I am a lucky guy, indeed!" Katrina, most people are bending over back­ wards to pay tribute to New Orleans.

JI: Your discography goes on and on and in of the masters before him was that he was AB: First I would say this, l have nothing but reviewing it, there are two things that are fortunate enough to become successful. In love and respect for the creative music that striking. One, most musicians stick with a many arenas his success has been used to dis­ has come out of New Orleans and I have noth­ coterie of players that they feel comfortable respect the historical importance of his music, ing but love and solidarity for the citizens of with and record with them over and over but but Dave Brubeck would inf1uence Lennie New Orleans who have gone through such an you have a very fluid turnover in personnel. Tristano and Cecil Taylor, and his music incredibly traumatic and negative experience The other significant observation I'd like to would demonstrate fresh poly-rhythmical and like all Americans, I am appalled and note is that most people are not aware that you strategies and fresh poly-harmonic strategies, sickened by the ill response by our govern­ have recorded with a large number of main­ a Ia the great French composer, Darius Mi­ ment to the complexities that the good people stream masters such as Dave Brubeck, Hank haud. I grew up with a total grounding in the of New Orleans have experienced. Having Jones, Max Roach and Woody Shaw and that music that we call bebop. I grew up on the said that, going back to your question, while you have recorded albums drawn from the Southside of Chicago and would go to the 58'h New Orleans has most certainly contributed a song books of Monk, Tristano and Parker. Street Record Store. At that time, there were component to America's creative music his­ record booths so I could go in after grammar tory, l feel that the notion of New Orleans as a AB: Thank you for this question, these are school and later, after high school, and listen genesis foundation tor American creative

58 VOBN04 • Jazz Inside, P.O. Box 30284, Elkins Park, PA 19027 • tel: 215-887-8880 • www.jazzinsidemagazine.com music or African American invention dynam­ ics is absurd, is not true, is a complete fabrica­ tion related to market place fo rces, related to the antebellum political realignment that in the 1920' s first presented this argument. It was an argument that would seek to contain the vibrational dynamics of African Ameri­ cans and composite Americans; it is an argu­ ment that would seek to reemphasize ethnic vibrational parameters at the expense of com­ posite vibrational conversion experiences. This was due to the desire to blunt the forward thrust of W. E. B. DuBois' work and the intel­ lectual continuum that moved forward and in volved African Americans who had Univer­ salist aspirations. One reason my work has been considered not Black is because I've always been an African Ameri can with uni­ versal aspirations as opposed to an African American functioning under the antebellum ethnic-centric circle. New Orleans, in this subject, was used to blunt the composite dy­ namic implications of the music and in its place, to install a mythical perspective where New Orleans was this si ngul ar te!Titory that produced a ll the music. In fact, going back and looking at al l the great work of Frank Johnson in Philadelphia, hi s work was an im­ portant lin kage to the transformational musics taking place in the northern part of America and in Europe, such as the Salon. There were the correspondent music strategies with dance that would come out of Frank Johnson' s con­ tinuum and the great work of Scott Joplin was connected to Universali st' s musics and aspira­ tions. What I am really sayi ng is it seems that the worst th ing that can happen to an African American is to have any kind of connection to, or love and respect for Europe. What am I saying? I' m saying this - why is it if T chose to be a gangster that I could be respected? Why is it if 1 chose to be a pimp that I could be respected and brought into the music? Why is it if I advocated the position that said stay away from any kind of learning, that my work could be respected? I've never seen any of the musicians who have taken some of these posi­ tions challenged as to whether or not they' re Black. It seems to me that my biggest mistake was to honestly embrace those musics which touch my heart and changed my li fe and Anthony Braxton moved me into a particular direction. Why is it to have love for the music of Karlheinz to embrace composite reality is somehow out li ved because I was able to find something Stockhausen somehow means that I' m not a of the complete quadrant tenants of African that helped me to understand the wonder and legitimate African American? In my opinion, American vibrational dynamics? When I say beauty of life. J am a lucky guy, indeed! what we' re talking about is a model which I'm not a jazz musician, I say that with pride was constructed by the antebellum realign­ and gratitude. I'm very grateful to not call my JI: [t is puzzling that other artists who em­ ment forces of the second part of the '70s, music jazz, because as far as I'm concerned, brace the past and extend the historical ad­ which solidified powers in the 1980's to dem­ the music that we now call jazz is so separate vancements of their fie ld are praised and re­ onstrate a res urgence of antebellum dictates, from the music I grew up with that I am very warded, yet for some reason, the critics have reintroducing the id ea of legitimate Negro and happy to be separate from it and of course, been a ll over you from the very beginning, illegitimate Negro, reemphasizing the tenant I've paid the price for being separate. 1 don' t slamming you for being too intell ectual, too axioms underlying thi s alli ance that African make any money from my music, but that's Eu ropean, and too White. How long do you Americans have a ll this rhythm and we don 't OK. l was fortu nate to find work in academia feel it will take society to catch up to your have any kind of intellectual power. Why is it and for the past 40 years I basically paid to work? that to have any respect for Europe under­ play my music. I am not compl aining, in fact, mines one's African-ness? And why is it that I am among th e luckiest people who have ever AB: I think the emergence of Barak Obama is

Jazz Inside, P.O. Box 30284, Elkins Park, PA 19027 • www.jazzinsidemagazine.com • VOBN04 59 "I have always been interested in the tradition; it's just that I had a different understanding of the tradition. In my viewpoint, the tradition is to do your best and evolve your work. The tradition is not to stay with what you learned from the masters but to translate what you've learned into something that had meaning for the time period that you were born in." profound. For me, his emergence really sig­ The first item comes from a recording by the trans-Asia, 1 am a student of world music and nals the end of the antebellum cycle of the last Russian pianist Vyacheslav Ganelin with the I have a right to be a student of world music. I 35-40 years. Mr. Obama 's emergence, Ganelin Trio. One of his compositions was have not consciously tried to harm anybody whether or not he wins the presidency, re­ entitled "Who is Afraid of Anthony Braxton," with my work. f have tried with my work to establishes the African American Universalist, which the press built up into some sort of do the best that [ could do. From my perspec­ and I believe that the work he's done already criticism of you. The second item I'll bring tive, this was the real goal of the creative mu­ will reconfigure the vibrational components in up, concerns comedian Bill Cosby, who fea­ sician, to learn from the great masters of the African American and European American tured a pot-pushing character by the name of past and present. That is to not imitate them, communities, and will have a positive effect Anthony Braxton on his TV show, The Cosby but to learn from them and include that infor­ on composite America and Europe as we Show, in a 1985 episode. Have you ever spo­ mation in a composite music that in the end move forward. As far as when will my work ken to these two men in order to make sense expressed my experience. be viewed in a different light? I don't see that of what they were thinking? happening in my lifetime. For the last 25- Jl: What was your take on the Ganelin Trio years, I have begged every place 1 could beg AB: Thank you for these wonderful questions. composition - "Who is Afraid of Anthony in this country and in Europe to get an opera No, I have never met Mr. Cosby even though Braxton?" Have you ever spoken to Ganelin project performed, but there's no slot for th e 2-years ago his secretary contacted my agent about this? Did you take it as a negative state­ African American opera composer. There's no to ask if I would be a sideman in his bebop ment towards you? slot for an African American who doesn't fit group and play at the Monterrey Jazz Festival. in the categories that have been established His secretary also told my agent "be sure to AB: As far as I'm concerned, there's several over the past 40-years. T'm 63-years-old, liv­ tell Anthony Braxton that Mr. Cosby is not ways of looking at that title. "Who is Afraid ing on the East Coast; I have been waiting for going to be paying that much money, so don 't of Anthony Braxton" means he was thinking the Metropolitan Opera to perfom1 one opera think of this as some kind of windfall. What a about Anthony Braxton. lt meant that Brax­ of the great composer master William Grant life! What a person! This guy must be really ton 's work posed a proposition in which it Still. . .I look around the country and I don't far out to think that he could produce a na­ might be possible to be afraid of him. In the see African American composers being per­ tional TV show and use me as a negative cari­ end, this composition was not my problem, formed ... So I don't know how my music will cature for his own purposes, just because he my problem was finding ways to survive and be viewed when I am gone but one of the rea­ didn' t like my music! I have never understood to do my work and not let the opposition de­ sons I have sought to document my music is that decision. Mr. Cosby might not like my fine who I was. I would also say this; part of because I've learned from great masters and music but he has certainly expressed love for my strength has been the opposition. l love visionary pioneers like Sun Ra, Duke E lling­ the great work of Max Roach, who has made the opposition and l thank the opposition. ton, J. S. Bach and Mozart. You do your work two albums with me and we have played 5 Because of the opposition, my all ies would and do it to the best of your ability, you docu­ concerts in Europe together and a conference arise to defend my work and to properly inter­ ment it and throw it into the circle and your and duo conce11 at Wesleyan University. I pret my work for the friendly experiencer who work will fight for its own life. In the future, thank God for this great master whose work was interested in my music. 1 thank my allies my work wi ll either be viewed positively or has provided the rhythmic logic logo that has because at a certain point I was down on my negatively, but no one can say that I have not permeated creative music for the last 58-years. knees asking the cosmics which way to go, fought to document my music. I can understand that there were and are peo­ and it became clear to me that the intensity of ple who might not like my music, but I found the attacks were a form of compliment that Jl: There are two other crosses that you've it amazing as a young man, how eager some said, 'they are saying that you are worth it, had to bear which critics seem to bring up of these people were to simply destroy me and your work is wot1h this type of bashing, and semi-frequently that stem from other a1iists. to stop my ability to make a living just be­ that there was something there worth negative cause they didn' t like my music. I' ve never putdown. ' And later, I would come to see that met the man. I don' t think it could be anything my opposition was making me stronger. I personal between us, I think it was a total would continue my work and get used to the "It takes a great deal rejection of my music, but he was not alone. environment that my critics were forming. But of character strength to Amiri Baraka would write "oh, Braxton's I would also say this, in defense of my opposi­ apologize quickly out of one's music is following Europe." Ted Jones wrote tion, in the 1960's, when the music began to heart rather than out of pity. A person "Braxton is an Oreo, Black on the outside, change, many of the musicians who were su­ must possess himself and have a deep White on the inside." Well, here we are 40- per technical, who one might have hoped sense of security in fundamental years later, I'm Black on the outside, White would have crossed over into the restructural­ principles and values in order on the inside, if that's what they think, it 's ist music, in fact, would back away from the to genuinely apologize." OK. I have love in my heart for Europe, for musics and their backing away from the mu­ Arabia, for Asia and for humanity, composite sic, for whatever their reasons, would create a humanity. I' m grateful for what I've learned void that became filled by musicians who did from world music. I realize that the story of not have their experiences. Suddenly, we -Abraham Lincoln, 16th President, United States Q oO humanity is complex but I do not separate would read about challenges to the technical myself from trans-Europa, trans-Africa or dimensions of the music; could this musician

60 VOBN04 • Jazz Inside, P.O. Box 30284, Elkins Park, PA 19027 • tel: 215-887-8880 • www.jazzinsidemagazine.com number X play a C major scale, or coul d the tie, Woody Shaw or Eric Dolphy. We don't contacted him prior to this interview to ask post-Ayler musicians play " Donna Lee?" As talk about Woody Shaw much today but his about his intention with "Who is Afraid of far as I' m concemed, those arguments were work explored pentatonic integration in a way Anthony Braxton." irre levant. When I first heard the music of that was fresh and non-generic. His work, as [The Email reply is shared with the inter­ Albert Ayler, I found myself thinking ' hubba­ well as Booker Little and Eric Dolphy, would viewee. Ganelin writes " It was our attitude hubba-mac-hubbal ' And by that, l ' m saying help to set up a whole new spectrum of possi­ with a smile (it is very Russian humor) with Mr. Ayler' s music went straight through my bi Iities for creative investigation (exploration) deep respect and meant to honor the creativity heart. His music totally corresponded with the and would also reinvigorate intervallic logic of Anthony Braxton."] forward thrust of the restructuralism in the construction dictates. And so the '60s has yet sixties. Albert Ayler' s music confirmed that to be written on in a mature way, but I will AB: See, that is what I was saying, it was not the sixth restructural cycle of American crea­ say this, hooray for the great writings of a criticism at all , it was humor. In fact, when I tive music had moved into sound mass evolu­ George Lewis. His book on the AACM [A first heard of th is composition, T had to laugh tion and his work would go on to create a new syntax and new models based on gradient logic model building and his work would also connect to Dixieland music and collective "From my perspective, this was the real goal of improvisation. His work changed the tambour fabric of creative music. Albert Ayler is awe­ the creative musician, to learn from the great some and I' m only sighting one guy. What about the great work of Bill Dixon, whose masters of the past and present. That is to not work, including fresh concepts of orchestra­ imitate them, but to learn from them and in­ tion, is part of the breakthroughs of the 3'd millennium? l also think of Don E ll is, Jimmy clude that information in a composite music Giuffre, Lennie Tristano and of course, Or­ nette Coleman, whose music, as far as l'm that in the end expressed my experience." concerned, is one of the great musics of the 20th Century. 1 am a student of th is great man, I love Ornette Coleman. When we talk about Power Stronger Than Itself: The AACM And because I' ve come to talk of myself as an the I 960's, we' re talking about more than one American Experimental Music] is the most African-Jewish-German-Russian guy. My component; we're talking about confluences powerful book, the most important book re­ affinities have been strong in these areas all that would come together from many different leased in the 3'd mi ll ennium, thus far. my life. What attracts me to Russia, besides directions, whether the subject is Booker Lit- Jl: l interviewed Mr. Ganelin in the past and its composing tradition and the great work of

Jazz Inside, P.O. Box 30284, Elkins Pa rk, PA 19027 • www.jazzinsidemagazine.com • VOBN04 61 Scriabin, Shostakovich and Prokofiev and not material for two records. Later, I would be put interested in the tradition; it's just that I had a to mention Stravinsky, is the humor and the down and challenged by the jazz business and different understanding of the tradition. In my darkness of Russian culture. And when I say pol itical complex for playing ·'Ornithology" viewpoint, the tradition is to do your best and darkness, I mean darkness in the sense of cele­ and "Donna Lee" on the contrabass clarinet evolve your work. The tradition is not to stay brating the polarities of light and dark. To which, for me, was very interesting. I recall with what you learned from the masters but to read this paragraph makes me feel very happy Don DeMichael, the Down Beat writer, in the translate what you' ve learned into something because when I first heard the Ganelin Trio's early '60s, when referring to the avant-garde/ that had meaning for the time period that you music, my feeling was, r love it and I wish I post-Ayler musicians, writing something to were born in. Each generation is born into a could find a way to get to Russia to have an the effect that none of these guys could ever different set of challenges, and for me, I experience with these people. And after 40- play "Donna Lee," that they weren't techni­ wanted to create a music that was equal to the years, I finally got to Russia 3-months ago. cally good enough to negotiate the mechanics challenges of my time period. At the time of Part of my hope, as a young man, was to have of the song. Suddenly, 1 was charged with the In Th e Tradition recording, l still thought a universal experience. When 1 went to defaming the music by playing Charlie that I could continue my work but still have a Europe in the '70s, 1 did not go as the hip Parker's compositions on the contrabass clari­ connection to the jazz community. Later I Black American who was going to teach the net as if I was committing some sort of sacri­ would come to see that's impossible. Eu ropeans how to play the music. I wasn't lege against his work, as opposed to seeking interested in that philosophical position. I to evolve that material with a register logic Jl: Your early years as an artist were marked went to Europe to meet the men and women interpretation that could yield fresh explor­ by significant poverty. This forced you to who were excited about the restructural ative assumptions. This was my hope, to ex­ think experimentally and utilize whatever changes taking place in the music, like I was. 1 plore fresh timbral explorative possibil ities. resources you had at hand, such as found ob­ met musicians in Germany, Great Britain, When I met Tete Montoliu sometime after the jects, balloons and recorded sounds, in order Holland, France and in Italy and I thank the recording, he spoke very positively about the to realize your creative visions. In Graham cosmics that I would have those experiences session and hoped that we could do something Locke's excellent book Forces in Motion: the because we were all young and excited and again in the future together. I never got a Music and Thoughts of Anthony Braxton, he looking for different ways to evolve our work. negative greeting from Niels-Henning Orsted writes about you surviving on Hostess Twin­ 1 wanted to play with these people because r Pedersen. I got a greeting from a comrade kies and brown rice and eggs in the '60s. wanted to leam with them and from them who was very positive and respectful. As far Things were so bad financially that you actu­ because I'm a professional student of music, I as "Tootie" Heath goes, I am not aware of any ally left the country and were quoted as say­ want to keep learning. problem. I recall meeting his brother, Jimmy ing, "I was determined not to die in Chicago, I Heath, in Paris where I played Kenny Dar­ would die in Paris." Jl: One of your earliest recordings was In The ham's composition "Escapade" and Mr. Heath AB: Yes, what happened in the AACM was that Christopher Gaddy, an incredible pianist who worked with the Joseph Jarman Quartet, "As a composer, I never think about what's would die of diabetes at a very young age and it shook the membership up and then a year or practical, I think about doing the best that I two later, Charles Clark, who for us, was one of the greatest bass players of all time, sud­ can do. I tell my students, 'get practical in denly died of a brain aneurysm. It felt like it came out of the sky and at the same time in your '60s, do your best based on how you are the AACM, it was becoming impossible to make a living, we were all starving. I found defining things. Don't be afraid to fail. Don't myself feeling that I had to see if there was something else in life. The membership of the be afraid of poverty or opposition and nega­ AACM knew we had to expand our parame­ ters or we would not survive. There was sim­ tive reviews. Do your work because what we ply no way to make a living in Chicago. In the end, I went to Europe with $50 in my pocket call being alive, goes by very quickly.' and a one-way ticket. After getting into the country, if they had asked for my return ticket they would have kicked me out. I took a taxi cab which cost about $30 dollars to get into Tradition which has an interesting story be­ asked me what chord was 1 using on some the city. As we went through the Montpar­ hind it. You were called to do the album that part of the composition and I told him F7 and nasse section I looked out and there was Steve was intended to be a Dexter Gordon date but he said, "OK, that would work." [Laughs] lt McCall walking down the street. I told the he was il l and you took his spot along side was very beautiful, it was an opportunity to taxi cab driver 'stop, stop' and lo and behold, Tete Montoliu, Niels-Henning Orsted Peder­ meet a detailed, meticulous master who gave the cosmics had saved me again. Steve sen and Albert 'Tootie' Heath. What was the me a chance, listened to my music, didn't put McCall, the visionary percussion master and reaction of the other musicians when they me down, and was very nice and encouraging my dear friend, would take me in with his heard you were replacing Gordon? to me. The In The Tradition session was an beautiful fami ly. This has happened to me opportunity that I jumped at. lt was a chance before. Wi lbur Ware, the great bassist, and his AB: That was a very important experience for to do a recording of traditional musics. It was wife, took me in and l lived at their home for me and the musicians were reall y beautiful. a way of saying, 'wait a minute, don't sepa­ a couple weeks when 1 first came to New Fifteen years later, 1 would hear in certain rate me from the composite family of the mu­ York. The beboppers have always tried to circles that the session was a negative experi­ sic because of my interest in restructural de­ paint me as a guy who is totally separate from ence for the other musicians. That is not my velopment, and because of my love for Stock­ their experience, but they have no idea who I memory, in fact, in one day, we did enough hausen and Schoenberg.' I have always been am because not only did I grow up in the mid-

62 V08N04 • Jazz Inside, P.O. Box 30284, Elkins Park, PA 19027 • tel: 215-887-8880 • www.jazzinsidemagazine.com "I'm not connected with the antebellum umbrella and its re­ lated business complexes that dictates reality for the Jazz community and the world of popular music." die of that experience, but l 've had the good more than what I could ever express about changed your work? fortune to have experiences with musicians music and about life and about goodness be­ most people would never think of that Brax­ cause he's a positive man with a good heart. lt AB: 1 must say that I have been very fortunate ton would be related to. People like Rahsaan hurt to read Ira Gitler putting him down and to have the opportunity to come into acade­ Roland Kirk and Eddie Harris. When I tell my disrespecting him, or to read how Lee Kanitz mia. That good fotiune was due to David students that I worked with Sam and Dave in diabolically exploited Ornette Coleman, while Rosenboom, who made the decision in 1985 the soul band period, they're always shocked. at the same time smiling at him, is to know to bring me in to Mills College. About David I also worked with The Platters and The Del­ how complex the music scene is, but Ornette Rosenboom - only in America could we have Vikings. Coleman flies over negative energy like a a guy of his caliber who is not supported and silver dove because his heatt is pure, he's a talked about. He is one of the most brilliant JJ: You also lived in Omette Coleman's base­ good man, a positive man and he's done his people I've ever met in my whole life. His ment. That was during your time of chess work. He hasn't badmouthed anybody; he just music and scholastic work is on a level that hustling in New York City's Washington goes forward with integrity. He's a great role few could ever hope to be on. He's produced Square. model for guys like me and for the younger an incredible body of music that could change generation. the world if only the music business complex AB: That's right. Mr. Coleman took me in for and the journalistic/media complex would something close to 6-8-months, not only in his JI: Times have changed for you now as a give him the focus and support he deserves. basement, but also in his home. I had the won­ tenured professor of music at Wesleyan Uni­ Because of his decision to bring me into aca­ derful opportunity to sit at the knee of this versity. In addition to job security, you have at demia, 1 was able to save my family. My wife great master and to learn from him. He's a your disposal, a steady stream of young stu­ Nikki and I and our three children were starv­ very wise man on top of being a very great dent musicians who are quite capable of play­ ing to death. I had worked at Mills College for musician and Ornette Coleman taught me ing your music. How have these factors 5-years and suddenly I had a second stroke of

Susan Krebs In collaboration with the Soaring Sextet

Jazz Inside, P.O. Box 30284, Elkins Park, PA 19027 • www.jazzinsidemagazine.com • VOBN04 63 cosmic good luck, American masters, Neely JI : One of the greatest acknowledgements of these are drawn up. I realize we' re never go­ Bruce and Alvin Lucier would make the deci­ your work came in 1994 when you were ing to know what the diagrams mean so I' m sion to bring me to Wesleyan University. awarded the MacArthur Foundation's Fellows not even asking about that, but I will ask About Neely Bruce - he is a virtuoso pianist/ Program, also known as the "Genius Grant," about those compositions of yours that are so composer, like David Rosenboom, and has which translated into $3 00,000 with no strings originall y conceived and daring that they are produced a spectrum of compositions that attached. [This is presented to individuals who near impossible to bring to fruition . These span the range from solo to orchestral music. have demonstrated extraordinary originality include some that require a large number of He is cun·ently working on the music of and dedication to their craft.] You used the musicians, or perhaps a large number of the Charles Tves and his area space music's are money to produce your four-hour opera Tril­ same instruments, and the pairing of very redefining the genre. He would make the deci­ lium R. How did you spend $300,000 dollars uncommon instruments. My favorite piece is sion to bring me into academia because he on an opera and how did it feel to finally get the one for four amplified shovels and a large was the chairman of th e music department at recognized on a grand scale for your lifetime load of coal. Are there many compositions which have never been performed? Are there compositions th at you considered but deter­ "Invariably, because life is life, you mined to be too grandiose to prepare? AB: OK, let me break down your questions. will make your mistakes, but don't About the titles, th e nomenclature reality of my model seeks to recognize origin specific define yourself by your mistakes, components, secondary target components and transpositional ritual components. By saying it that way, I'm saying every composition has a define yourself based on your hopes." graphic title, an intercode system and an opus number. This decision is part of the decision of building a model on the number 3, or 3 to the time. Now about Alvin Lucier - he is a work? the third power. Three is the generating num­ securely documented, visionary, restructural ber of my music system, and the decision to composer master, whose work is generally AB: l did not spend all of the money on the have th ree titles for every composition is part viewed in the context of the post-John Cage opera, I bought Nikki Braxton a car and paid of the tricentric extended purpose of every musics. debts but the bulk of the money went towards composition. Let me expand on thi s. In my Before 1 had the good fortune to join the fac­ the opera, because what I learned from Or­ system, by the term origin identity, I am say­ ulty of Wesleyan University, 1 had already nette Coleman was that if you don' t invest in ing every composition is composed with a been a great fan and admirer of Wesleyan yourself, how can you expect for someone specific instrumentation in the traditional way University. 1 used to go up to Wesleyan to be else to invest in you? As far as the recognition that we talk about composing a composition. a John Cage puppy dog, and to study under from the MacArthur Foundation, I was very Every composition also has a secondary ob­ the master. I studied under Cage and also un­ surprised and grateful , but as you know, it j ective that says the flute part in Compositi on der David Tudor. I had the opportunity to could have gone to any of the men and women 96 can be played by 27 tubas, the string parts meet and work with the great Richard Teitel­ I came up with. It could have gone to Roscoe can be played by 27 accordions. In other baum, who was among the first to explore the Mitchell , who actually evolved his music be­ words, any part of an origin composition can possibilities of the Moog synthesizer. So, fore me. lt could have gone to Muhal Richard be taken out and pl ayed by another instru­ coming to Wesleyan University put me into Abrams, who was one of the key architects of ment. Also, any composition in my music the middle of a world community, giving me the AACM. It most certainly could have gone system has a genetic identity. What I am say­ the opportunity to work with Mr. Sumarsam, to th e great Henry Threadgill, who is brilliant ing by that is one measure of Composition 96 the great master from Indonesia who is a re­ and while it is correct for me to talk of solo can be placed in number I 03. This concept of structuralist and traditionalist working with musics as the genesis component of my music modeling is more akin to an erector set where gamelan Indonesian strategies. I would have system, 1 should also mention that when I got thi ngs can be put together based on the needs th e opportunity to work with Abraham Adzen­ out of the Army, T played Henry Threadgill 's of the composer as opposed to the composi­ yah who is the great master of Ghanaian per­ notated piece for solo alto saxophone and it tion having to be performed in its origin sense cussion logics. This has been a great opportu­ turned me upside down. It was one of the every time. And so, what we have here is an nity to work with a new generation of creative pieces, along with Stockhausen's Piano Piece organi c use of materials. About the composi­ people, some of whom will become the mas­ IV and VI, that convinced me that 1 had to go tions - 2-years ago I had a performance in ters of the third mi ll ennium. For a guy like and investigate syntactical models. The bril­ New York City of Composition I 9 for I 00 myself, who was born in 1945, I never liant Leo Smith is another example of a very tubas. It was the first performance of a piece thought that I would even see the third millen­ qualified candidate for this award . Hopefully, that was written in 1967. I mention that to say, nium, let alone live to 2008. r enjoy my stu­ it can still happen. I was happy to see George and I tell this to my students, go with what dents and if they are from a classical music Lewis receive the MacArthur Fellowship be­ you are hearin g. Write it out. If it can' t be formation I try to teach them about the im­ cause Lewis, along with Leo Smith, David performed now maybe it will be performed provisational musics, so called jazz. If they Rosenboom and Karlheinz Stockhausen, are later. Maybe it will never be performed, but I are jazz musicians, I try to teach them about some of the most bri ll iant people who have can assure you this much, if you don' t write it, the great trans-European musics including helped me in my life to work hard. Were it not it will definitely never be performed. I've Tristano since Tristano is never represented in for these people, I would be in the briar patch tried to evolve a music system that starts from the jazz programs in America. At Wesleyan, J eating hamburgers. sin gular to the largest thing I can think of, have th e great opportunity to work with these whether they can ever be performed or not. young people and if I give them I 0%, they JI: A lot is made of your composition's titles. Part of doing your best is to try to postulate give me back 80% and half the time I try to They are simply numbered and contain dia­ the greatest and the sma ll est parameter of your figure out who's the student. grams in place of traditional titles. In past interest and push to get performances of what­ interviews, you have not fu ll y explained how ever is possible. There are still many pieces

64 V08N04 • Jazz Inside, P.O. Box 30284, Elkins Park, PA 19027 • tel: 215-887-8880 • www.jazzinsidemagazine.com that have never been performed but who for the men and women who are trying to do into creative orchestra music. I've tried to put knows, maybe a performance will come up. their own music, but who are also helping I 0 contracts out to destroy him but in each This weekend we are doing Composition I 03 other people. By the way, Taylor Ho Bynum, case I wasn't able to raise the money, so I for 7 trumpets. This will not be the very first Steve Lehman, Katie Young, Sara Schoen­ have to get on his side and give the old performance for I 03, that was about 3-years beck and Nicole Mitchell are the musicians of AACM salute because 1 love him, I love his ago, but Composition I 03 is about 20-years the future, the masters of the 3'd millennium. fami ly. Now back to Bany Altschul, it is al­ old and only now are we starting to perform it. These are the people that deserve our support, most like he didn't exist. Nobody writes about As a composer, I never think about what' s as we look into the void of the next time pe­ him and the percussion magazines don't in­ practical, I think about doing the best that I riod, understanding that we are in a period of clude him. I don't get it! From the very begin­ can do. I tell my students, 'get practical in profound financial realignment. Creativity is ning, he had something very fres h. He played your '60s, do your best based on how you are part of spiritual evolution and motivation, it's with Paul Bley and he's been a dedicated mu­ defining things. Don't be afraid to fail. Don' t part of cultural solidification for the great sician all his life. l don't get it, he's deserving be afraid of poverty or opposition and nega­ push forward. It's important that we support of support. tive reviews. Do your work because what we people like Jackson Moore and Andre Vida. call being alive, goes by very quickly.' I' m 63 JI: What did you mean by putting a contract and I can't believe how quick l got to be 63. Jl: You were a member of the jazz super out on Dave Holland? Is there somethin g he And so, goi ng back to your question, I've group C ircle [along with Chick Corea, Dave needs to be worried about? tried to write for the spectra of orchestration Holland and Barry Altschul]. Now that Chick and I've also tried to redefine the concept of Corea has completed his reactivation of Re­ AB : No, because I couldn't work up the orchestration. That is to say, l 'm interested in turn To Forever, what are the chances of Cir­ money. pieces with 25 accordions and vibraphones. cle getting back together') I' m interested in the challenge of imbalance JI: 1s this a mob thing? configurations, as well as traditional configu­ AB: I don ' t think so. In fact, I would say that rations. l believe one of the challenges for the there's no chance for ever getting back to­ AB: This is a mob thing. I tried to wipe him third millennium composer is to redefine the gether unless it would be Circle, the trio, be­ out several times because I saw he was doing concept of orchestration and instrumentation cause there was a Circle prior to me joining such good music. He was too successful and 1 and to open up that and bring in instruments the group. Let me back up and be clear here, l was trying to find a way to stop him. He is a from all over the world and put them together. thank the cosmics that I had the good fortune good man and we were together at a very im­ Sun Ra 's composition for percussion was a to meet Chick Corea, Dave Holland and Barry pOiiant time in our lives. He knows me and I prelude to the use of fresh concepts, fresh Altschul. l have nothing but love for these know him. instrumentations, and fresh challenges. people. Sure, it's true that there was a com­ plex feeling between me and Chick Corea JI: The other super group on my wish list for J I: When you are contracted to perform, do when the group broke up, but that was 30- reuniting is your classic quartet from the mid­ you decide what you are going to be perform­ years ago. When l think about Chick Corea, I ' 80s to the mid-'90s with pianist Marilyn ing or does the hiring organization dictate think about a guy who was super brilliant, Crispell , bassist Mark Dresser and drummer that. You had mentioned that it took close to super talented, even back then. Having the Geny Hemingway. What are the chances of 20-years for the composition for 7 trumpets to chance to play with him for over a year was that group reforming? be performed, isn't that something that you an awesome experience and his decision to have a hand in deciding?

AB: Well, part of my struggle, as an African American with notated compositions, has "I have tried on occasion, when possible, to been to look for ways to get performances and for the most part, this avenue is a closed ave­ work with the traditional materials from my nue. l thank the cosmics for people like Mark own value systems, and my value systems Christman [director of Ars Nova Workshop ­ an organization that promotes jazz and crea­ are not always respected by the jazz critics." tive music in Philadelphia] He asks me what I would like to do instead of telling me what I should try to do or narrow the framework of what can be done and it was because of how create Return To Forever has evolved a whole AB: No, there's no chance that group will the question was posed that l was able to sug­ continuum of incredible music that's in a di­ come back together for the same reasons that I gest a performance of these pieces. For the rection that's separate from my direction, but talked about with Circle. We came together most part, the notated pieces are performed it doesn't mean that it's any less important and it was a blessing from the heavens to meet because I finance it myself or someone like than the work that l ' m trying to do. I say hats and work with those people. Suddenly, the Taylor Ho Bynum or the American master off to this fe ll ow Gemini and l offer to let him cycle ends and we have to go forth and bring Dave Douglas will have a festival of brass know that, yes, I still have love for him. This in new people, that's part of our challenge and musics and include my work. I'd like to make old guy still sends me Christmas cards and a responsibility. But I will say this, Mark special mention to Dave Douglas and John CD now and then. As far as our complexities Dresser was a virtuoso when I met him and he Zorn and Taylor Ho Bynum, musicians who of the past are concerned, that's a thing of the became a super virtuoso composer. He is also are great American masters who also find time past. I would say this- l can't believe how a dynamic scholar and teacher at the Univer­ to create structures to help other musicians. A little support Barry Altschul has received over sity of California in San Diego. He is a great case in point is John Zorn, in addition to being the past 30 years. I'm happy with the support man and a great musician. Marilyn Crispell, I a musician-composer, he has a record com­ for the British master Dave Holland; he de­ miss her. I've followed her music and it con­ pany that he uses to record a wide range of serves all of the support that he gets. This is a tinues to evolve. She is an absolute virtuoso musicians, including the work of Matthew great man, a super virtuoso and composer. He and can handle total ly complex music or non­ Welch and Leo Smith. T have a special love organizes small groups and has even moved complex music. Working with her for almost

Jazz Inside, P.O. Box 30284, Elkins Park, PA 19027 • www.jazzinsidemagazine.com • VOBN04 65 a decade was a great joy. It was always under­ and how to deal with harmonic logics. She AB: To answer that question, I would say this stood that Gerry Hemingway was one of the was considered right under Jelly Roll Morton - if we were to walk out the building, turn left, special musicians; he has an encyclopedic and Earl Hines in terms of rhythmic logic go to the first corner, go down two blocks, memory of world music. He taught me about evolution and originality. We also need to make a right and walk a third of the block and folk musics and helped me go into country recall Mary Lou Williams ... you would see a McDonalds. The first objec­ musics. Gerry Hemingway has a vast intellect. tive of any strategic creative musician is to He's always been a scholar, one of the first to JI: You have so many eclectic interests, in­ locate the McDonalds in your region. I have a investigate universal percussion logics, and he cluding mathematics and astronomy. The last grid and that way I can go to those is a mature composer that has to be ap­ time l heard you play; you expressed your McDonalds and check out other restaurants proached on his own terms. He is awesome, love of marching bands. What other interests every now and then. I' m not as bad now as but if one would read the conventional maga­ do you have? when I was in my ' 20s but I can still eat there zines about music in America, you would every now and then. I'm just a country boy. hardly even know the man exists, but in fact, AB: Well, I' m a march guy because in high he is one of our most brilliant percussionists. school l discovered John Phillip Sousa's mu­ Jl: Are you a member of Mensa? When you have a group that lasts for a num­ sic and that was it for me. It couldn' t get any ber of years, what happens is that musicians better than John Phillip Sousa, then and now. I AB: No, I don' t go for that showy stuff. become family, it never changes and it never would also say for the friendly researching will change. I will always love these people music listener, Sousa also wrote operas and Jl: Where do you see your place in history? and they will always love me because we are his work is not being interpreted correctly. I family. We went through not just a conce1i also salute Paul Whiteman, and if the subject AB: I can' t deal with that question because I together, but we went through a whole time is Braxton, we' re talking of a Stan Kenton don' t know how to deal with it. I can say this space together. We grew up together, evolved kind of guy. I resent that Stan Kenton's music much, when I made the decision to embrace together. I learned from these people as much has been kind of kicked to the side as if it music as my life's work, as my spiritual posi­ as they learned from me. l would also include wasn' t important. This idea that says all of the tion, inside of that decision I wanted to do the John Lindberg and Ray Anderson in this pe­ American European contributions to so-called best that I could do. l wasn' t afraid then or riod. l will diverge to also mention that I am a jazz can be removed and it wouldn' t change now of death, what I was afraid of was to not Connie Crothers kind of guy. Nobody talks the music is an antebellum postulate. rt is a do my best. And so, what I have tried to do is about my heroine, Connie Crothers. Sure, I postulate based on ignorance and racism. As to approach my art with the best disposition grew up with Sal Mosca as my hero, but Miss far as music is concerned, I just like music, l that I can and to do the best that I can, and Crothers would also become one of my he­ just like it and I'm a student of music. There's when I fall down, get back up. I tell my chil­ roes. I don' t think American people know so much l don't know about. I have to ap­ dren, get up, do your work. Hard times will how important this great master is. Also, as a proach the subject from a perspective of hu­ come, good times will come, don't be fooled. saxophonist, l will mention Richard Tabnik, mility because there's so much to learn about, It's not about a good time, it 's not about a who might as well live in Australia because not to mention that I'm shocked to still be hard time, do your best in life. Be positive and nobody talks about him, but he is one of the alive trying to do music ... So we' re talking don't try to hurt anybody. Invariably, because great saxophonists of this time period. Rich­ about the world of music starting from where life is life, you will make your mistakes, but ard Tabnik is off the charts, but no one talks ever you are, not this idea of starting from don't define yourself by your mistakes, define about him because no one talks about Mr. New Orleans and then going up to 1965 and yourself based on your hopes. Do your best, Tristano, and they don't talk about the dy­ then jazz is dead, so you have to go back to try to do the least amount of damage but rec­ namic implications of the trans-Tristano mu­ 1965 to save jazz. That's a bullshit idea, that's ognize that you ' re lucky. I' m lucky because I sics. So Connie Crothers' work in the '60s is an idea that can only come out of New Or­ know who my children are, They have great overlooked, but if one could hear the concerts leans. That's a political idea that successfully hearts, they have real ability and they come she did at Town Hall with Warne Marsh, that sought to destroy the alternative creativities from me and Nikki Braxton. person might be shocked because the music taking place and destroy the aspirations of she was playing was on a level with Cecil musicians who were not from New Orleans. It JI: Is there anything that you would like to Taylor in terms of originality and freshness was a political gambit to put the New Orleans bring up or say at this point? and fresh assumptions of harmonic integration musicians in power so that they could serve and trans-harmonic integration. She is a great the needs of the activist Christian movement, AB: Yes, l would like to say something about master and teacher, and we have to integrate of the antebellum racialist movement, of the Jazz Improv Magazine. I am very surprised the great musicians who happen to be women ethnocentric parameter movement, of the New that you would even think of doing this inter­ into the history in a correct way ... I talk a lot York Tim es, and the hip N01ihem elitist move­ view. I have most certainly been buying your about the work of Lit Hardin Armstrong. We ment which says, ' boy, we love those negroes magazine and would like to say thank you for always talk about Louis [Armstrong], but Lit if they stay in their place and not try to write the extended article on Phil Woods. I thought was Louis' fmal teacher, along with King any music. Play some blues and kick it about it was a great article. Thank you for the ex­ Oliver. She taught Louis how to read music and we can endorse that, but don't be talking tended article on Sonny Rollins, it was great. about no operas, don't be talking about any­ Thank you for the extended article on Stan thing that will challenge the economic struc­ Getz. Stan Getz is my man. T tell my students, ture that's available for creative orchestras.' buy the Stan Getz with the Oscar Peterson The understanding being, the reality and fi­ Trio, please, please. Listen to "I Want To Be nancial components for bebop is one thing, Happy" and tell me that Stan Getz is not im­ but opera is another thing. That's just an ex­ portant. For Jazz Improv to even think about a ample, it goes much fllliher. guy like me means that there must be a vibra­ tional paradigm shift, something is opening Jl: On a lighter note, Graham Locke docu­ up, and for that I say hooray! Good luck to mented your love for McDonalds' food. Has you people and thank you for being open to - Robert Fritz your diet improved any over the years? include me. 0 0 0

66 VOBN04 • Jazz Inside, P.O. Box 30284, Elkins Park, PA 19027 • tel: 215-887-8880 • www.jazzinsidemagazine.com INTERVIEW Percussionist/composer Gerry Hemingway discusses Anthony Braxton

Hemingway was a member of Braxton 's quar­ tinuing to infuse the entire musical scene and Black Saint Records, he was, of course, com­ tet from 1983-1994 and gives eloquent insight those around him. He continues to generate a posing all the tunes for that recording pretty into the mysterious ways of the great master. sort of mixture of, almost at this point, mys­ much right up to the recording session, and we tique and magic and energy that is a wonder to were learning them pretty much right on the By Ken Weiss be around. I can tell you one quick story on a recording session. And this was typical of just more personal level. When we were working about everything I did with him, because any­ Jl: What is Anthony Braxton' s place in his­ on recording Six Compositions in 1984 for thing with new material was always reall y on tory?

GH: That's a wide question. His place in his­ tory is that he's a key figure in so many re­ spects. Anthony is one story out of the AACM [Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians], but he's an important one in re­ spect to the fact that he found himself along the way, to be in a position of some power. He had a recording contract with Arista and was producing an immense amount of work for a time, producing a key set of recordin gs that brought him considerable attention. And what did Anthony do with this wonderful situation? He convinced the record company to take on all these other artists as well. So he got Oliver Lake, Muhal Richard Abrams, Leroy Jenkins and as many people into the stable as he possi­ bly could. Everyone benefited from his work. That is one element in terms of his relation­ ship to the community from which he comes, and which bore out hi s very important ideas in terms of African American experimentali sm, which was really unfashionable in a big way in the '60s and, to a degree, remains so. There was a period in the late '70s where this was all going really well. European support for this music was at an all-time high, but it fizzled out in the ' 80s. Anthony was right there in the center of it all and hi s prolific efforts to com­ pose a large body of work speaks for itself. He picked his heroes early on, people like Karl­ heinz Stockhausen and others who produced vast bodies of work, and he felt that he needed to do the same things. So you have on the one hand, his actions to help the community, and you have on the other hand, his timing on where he was at and how his profi le was seen over the various decades. You have this pro­ lific artist who's produced a phenomenal amount of work, varied in success and quality. J don' t think even he would think that it's all great. He's an ardent experimentalist. A lot of his work is almost like a science experiment, he wants to experiment with different theo­ rems of construction and composition and organization and sound dynamics and any one of numerous categories of interest to him. So he's very important in this regard. He upholds a beli ef in the creative possibilities in music, and he never has really lost sight of that, con-

Jazz Inside, P.O. Box 30284, Elkins Park, PA 19027 • www.jazzinsidemagazine.com • V08N04 67 the edge in any way you can imagine. He was Braxton's music with some sense of willing­ tamed to. Which is to say th at his harmonic staying in my apartment for a number of days ness to suspend just about every musical ex­ considerations do not often fo llow the more in New York, hanging out, and we would just pectation they may have, a willingness, at typical sense of harmonic writing where all have these conversations about the music and least, to see what the possibilities are as they the notes th at are working together have a a myriad of other subjects. I' m sure you are evolve. One way fo r people to look at it is unifying concept of harmonic rules that have well aware that Anthony is literate in so many simi lar to the way we look at structures or evolved from previous models of " Western" things that you could have a conversation of sculptures that are dimensional in a way that harmony. 1 think one way to anal yze his mu­ just about anything. Coupled with hi s wonder­ you see, depending on which way you look at sic, is as a layering of horizontal elements that fu l sense of humor, it was one of the most it, you see certain things. For hi s most recent if looked at from a vertical standpoint, give you harmonic motion but not necessarily ones that he exactly ordains or controls. He accepts "He continues to generate a sort of the interplay of the elements that are working together in a linear way as also presenting mixture of, almost at this point, resulting harmony via the vertical conver­ gence of these ideas. Sometimes there's an mystique and magic and energy element of harmonic understanding that he's qu ite specific about, but sometimes, in a more that is a wonder to be around." Cageian way, he a ll ows th ese elements to work togeth er and remains open to what re­ sults. That's the willingness to allow certain in spiring weeks of time I' ve had in my li fe. works, from what I've heard of it, and 1 can't elements of the music to define themselves I've traveled from here to the moon with him, say that I'm as literate as 1 was when 1 was contextuall y. And again, we're not talking but being around him in this more intimate playing it, but he uses a modul ar approach of about harmonic elements that are around way is something I wi ll always treasure. He construction, w hi ch means that he has various chord changes or anything of that nature. An­ inspires me and many others around him. elements at play that happen sim ultaneously. thony is very literate in all this area, as we To some ears, that may sound chaotic to some well know, he has hundreds of records of stan­ Jl: Braxton's music may be chall enging at degree or may not sound related. The idea is dards and is accompli shed in hi s understand­ first listen for the average person. What can to notice the indi vidual pa1is, in addition to in g of traditional harmonies, but he doesn't you say to make sense of what is happening in sort of observing with a kind of hopefully tend to use them as elements in hi s own com­ his music that would give a first time listener fancifu l ear, what it is that happens when positions, excepting some of the earli er work. a foothold? these parts interact, and that's the comparison Hi s work is more of a collection of linear to the sculpture piece, where you stand on one ideas that kind of interrelate in continually GH: 1 think that a listener has to come to sid e and see an angle that's nice and than see shiftin g ways. Some of those linear statements the other side and the way the li ght hits it and could have harmonic elements in them, like a it's a whole different experience and yet it's pianist could have various chords, or it could a ll the same sculpture. Anthony is working be a piece that's all about the vertical ele­ with discemable musical principles that are ments, with no lin ear motion to speak of. You not difficult to actuall y understand what they can look at these musical elements in hi s work are if you look at the individual parts of what in a variety of different ways. You can try to he's doing. They aren' t that hard to get a han­ imagine what it is he's thinking about, or you dle on. Incorporated into this, of course, is the can just let the experi ence be what it's going improvisatory element. . .l think that what he to be for you. Audiences sometimes have to is calling hi s Ghost Trance music is the idea really suspend what their expectations are and of having several tracks of things going on in their understandin g of things. At least, to the parallel and sort of waiting to see how they degree that they can allow what ever it is kind of work with each other. It 's like havin g that's happening to happen and not necessar­ several ensembles play at once. Tn a way, it's ily hope that it wi ll fu lfill a definite pulse or not that fa r a field from the notions of Dixie­ other certain th in gs that people latch onto. But land and other things that worked on collec­ I' ll tell you one thing; tonalism is something tively independent ideas all happening with that I see much more in hi s music now than in some unifying goal. That's the part that's hard the past. He seems to be into very, very ele­ fo r people to hear. He doesn' t work with mental tonalities, so at least you get th at grand unifyin g statements, usually. Some­ [laughs]. I love his pieces that have very sim­ times he does and the classic example is his ple triadic-type of melodies, not complicated big band march music where everybody is in a totally unified perspective and then branches out from there. He doesn' t tend to use that with hi s midsize/chamber ensemble works, but if you can kind of keep an eye on the sub­ ""Chase your passion , themes, l think that will help in terms of your not your pension. " appreciation.

Jl: He's not so interested 111 harmony and melody?

GH: He is very interested in harmony and · Denis Waitley melody, just not on terms that we are accus-

68 V08N04 • Jazz Inside, P.O. Box 30284, Elkins Park, PA 19027 • tel: 215-887-8880 • www.jazzinsidemagazine.com at all, and not as thorny as those old themes. Anthony's work. We can't define his titles in for that. All these things tended to be done on Perhaps he 's lightening up a little bit now, any comfortable way that we're going to be the fly allowing the Sinatra in him to sing a song or comfortable or familiar with, but that's just two. I don't know what it is, he's kind of fas­ the point. He's redefining so many aspects of Jl: Can you comment on the critical backlash cinated with it in some way, not that it's sim­ what the experience of music can be, and that Braxton's work received in the past? ple in the overall impact, because he'll start that's what's rich. We' re richer for what we with that but then all these other elements will can gain from that experi ence. GH: Anthony was a notable figure and he start to come into play and then it won't be kind of became a figurehead for the avant­ about that tonality anymore. But there's a lot JI: Were you able to perform his composi­ garde to some degree. His way, his manner, of major scales in what I've heard of hi s re­ tions without charts, just relying on memory? his whole style was somehow made fun of. cent work, which I thought was kind of curi­ Everyone makes fun of the fact that he never ous. G H: Yeah, we needed the charts. Some of hi s got out of his cardigan sweater. There are older works that re li ed on traditional themes many curiosities about him. 1 think the avant­ JJ: A lot is made of his composition's titles could be done without the charts, and when garde tended to get this imagery of being a which are not named in the traditional sense. we did many concerts after a while, we did get bunch of loose guys who didn ' t know what They include numbers, drawings and circuit better and better at playing some of these mid­ they were doing; similar to how bebop got diagrams. Do the titles bear information to period works. I'm talking about compositions treated when it was growing. It's unfortunate you as a Braxtonian musician? between the 70's to the low I 00s. We per­ because Anthony couldn't be a more serious formed them a lot, and did get pretty sharp, or disciplined guy. He is extremely hardwork­ GH: Not to me particularly. 1 think Anthony which was gratifying. Anthony is very prolific in g, almost to a fault, and probably to a fault. is just offering to us a different way to enter and each time there was a special event or a He goes so far to produce works that he is into associations. Traditional titling usually recording, he' d be guaranteed to come up with passionately trying to create and bring to the connotes something for somebody. In other a whole bunch of new music and the majority world. He has big ideas, expansive ideas that words, meaning will almost undoubtedly be of the time spent preparing for the perform­ are inspiring. Those who are mainstream mu­ attached, but Bach didn't title his works ei ­ ance of that music would be spent splicing sicians tend to look at his version of Marsh­ ther, he just put numbers on them, and that's together his scores because he really didn't Konitz kind of approach to the saxophone as essentiall y what Anthony's doing except he's write parts. They would have to be made into being not quite on the mark because it doesn't taking it one step further by offerin g, not just something that we could actually read and fulfill the same qualifications as those guys, a title, but a visual diagram that sort of sup­ negotiate. We'd be lucky if we bad time to but what they don't see is what Anthony has plants the whole notion of titling altogether. sing the parts in the dressing room before done in taking the language from these great Now we don't have a title, we have this sort of we'd go out there and record. masters, who he is very indebted to, and has interesting structure with both a mixture of taken it in a direction that reframes or extends numbers and elements and little people walk­ JT: Did he do that by design to make it fresh the syntactical possibilities of what these guys in g around and they're all at play. Are we and keep you off balance, or was it that he ran were talking about. Now this could get into a trying to find a relationship between the title out of time? big discussion of what players like Kanitz, and the piece? No, not necessarily, I don ' t Marsh, Mosca and others, such as Tristano, think that's going to get you anywhere. GH: Jt's was both, 1 don't think it was by were developing, what limits they were push­ [Author] Graham Lock did everything he design. In the end, the experience that I had ing. Anthony just simply jumped in and took could to get an explanation for what the num- that was so1t of positive from that was, yes, the ideas in his direction of what he heard, so that when you listen to his playing, and l have numerous recordings that 1 play for my jazz history class, you can't even easily grasp his "Very few people that I've met in my life relationship to the rhythm section, he 's "out there," seemingly way off the mooring of the have that kind of intensity and dedication, cadential framework, but it 's there, he's really on it. Anthony is the only one I know that can thoroughness and passion, and he brings sit down with Mosca's late records and can si ng all the tunes. It's beautiful, and he 's so it all to his art." deeply in to all the things that he's into. Very few people that I've met in my life have that kind of intensity and dedication, thoroughness bers meant and what the titles were about, and you kind of stayed on edge, but you are out and passion, and he brings it all to his art. if there was anything specific he had in mind there with the responsibility to make it a good when he picked these numbers. Yeah, there's concert and you ' re playing music that you 0 0 0 a li ttle bit of numerology in the number pick­ haven't got a clue how to play. You don't ing, Lock was able to get that much out of know bow it's going to go together, but we him. There's also Anthony's book Triaxium got used to it and used to his languages and Writings, which discusses what he refers to as how he would organize things. We sort of a 3-dimensional logic system. He included became virtuosic at dealing with this situation various words and ideas with lines attaching as a performance vehicle. Ultimately, and I them in various ways and a weird-looking think I can speak for Marilyn [Crispell] and structure and that's the title of a chapter. In Mark [Dresser] in our quartet setting, it was this case, he's trying to get people to think a frustrating sometimes because we wanted to little bit differently by addressing this logic be able to master the material a bit more and system that isn 't linear but instead had many have some more time to work on it, but that's different sides to it and could be looked at the kind of gori lla band that we were. We - H. Jackson Browne from different perspectives. This is key to didn 't have money for rehearsals or the time

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