Tird Session, 41st Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday, November 7, 2018 Afernoon Sitting Issue No. 181

THE HONOURABLE DARRYL PLECAS, SPEAKER

ISSN 1499-2175 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

Third Session, 41st Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...... Hon. Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Trade and Technology...... Hon. Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Minister of Municipal Afairs and Housing...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... , QC Leader of the Tird Party ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Linda Reid Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Clerk Assistant — Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Sessional Law Clerk...... Loredana Catalli-Sonier, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Penticton Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford South ...... Hon. Darryl Plecas Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Abbotsford West ...... Michael de Jong, QC Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Begg, Garry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Guildford Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Burnaby North...... Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Surrey South Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... –West End Cariboo North ...... Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Chilliwack...... John Martin Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack-Kent...... Laurie Troness Chow, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Joan Isaacs Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Langley East Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Hon. Selina Robinson Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Courtenay-Comox ...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Darcy, Hon. Judy (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley ...... Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Delta North ...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Delta South...... Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Esquimalt-Metchosin...... D’Eith, Bob (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Tompson...... Donaldson, Hon. Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Tompson ...... Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Kelowna–Lake Country...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Steve Tomson Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kelowna West...... Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay East ...... Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kootenay West ...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Fraser, Hon. Scott (NDP) ...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Langford–Juan de Fuca...... Hon. John Horgan Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Langley...... Mary Polak Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Langley East ...... Rich Coleman Glumac, Rick (NDP)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Bob D’Eith Heyman, Hon. George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Hon. Lisa Beare Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca Mid Island–Pacifc Rim ...... Hon. Scott Fraser Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Nechako Lakes ...... Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Queensborough Nelson-Creston...... Hon. Michelle Mungall Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)...... Delta North New Westminster ...... Hon. Judy Darcy Kang, Anne (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Coast...... Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Island ...... Hon. Claire Trevena Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Tornthwaite Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ...... Courtenay-Comox Parksville-Qualicum ...... Michelle Stilwell Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Peace River North...... Ma, Bowinn (NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Peace River South...... Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Penticton...... Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam ...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Tompson Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount...... Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands Richmond North Centre ...... Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)...... Delta South Richmond-Queensborough ...... Jas Johal Plecas, Hon. Darryl (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South Richmond South Centre...... Linda Reid Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston...... John Yap Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Saanich North and the Islands...... Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South...... Hon. Lana Popham Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Shuswap ...... Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond South Centre Skeena ...... Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Stikine ...... Hon. Doug Donaldson Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale...... Marvin Hunt Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)...... Skeena Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Jagrup Brar Routledge, Janet (NDP)...... Burnaby North Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Guildford ...... Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Surrey-Panorama...... Hon. Jinny Sims Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey South...... Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sims, Hon. Jinny (NDP) ...... Surrey-Panorama Surrey–White Rock...... Tracy Redies Singh, Rachna (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Fairview ...... Hon. George Heyman Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–False Creek...... Sam Sullivan Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. George Chow Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver-Hastings ...... Hon. Shane Simpson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Kensington ...... Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kingsway ...... Hon. Adrian Dix Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Langara ...... Michael Lee Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Hon. Melanie Mark Tomson, Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. David Eby, QC Tornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Andrew Wilkinson, QC Troness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Hon. Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (BC Green Party) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake ...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Ralph Sultan Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ......

Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; BC Green Party 3; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Wednesday, November 7, 2018 Afernoon Sitting Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 6353

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 6353 Diwali and Bandi Chhor Divas R. Singh B.C. Youth Parliament L. Reid Delta Sports Hall of Fame R. Kahlon Movember fundraising campaign G. Kyllo Mike Fleming A. Olsen

Oral Questions...... 6355 Government recordkeeping policies and use of email by communications contractor P. Milobar Hon. J. Sims S. Bond Use of glyphosate in forest management A. Weaver Hon. D. Donaldson Government recordkeeping policies J. Tornthwaite Hon. J. Sims J. Johal Coverage of expenses for Advanced Education Minister M. Stilwell Hon. M. Mark Parliamentary secretary per-diem allowance claim during Welfare Food Challenge M. Hunt Hon. S. Simpson Government recordkeeping policies M. Polak Hon. J. Sims

Orders of the Day

Government Motions on Notice ...... 6360 Motion 31 — Referral of proposed amendments to Bill 45 to Committee of the House Hon. C. James A. Weaver

Second Reading of Bills ...... 6361 Bill 50 — Human Rights Code Amendment Act, 2018 Hon. D. Eby M. Lee A. Weaver

Report and Tird Reading of Bills...... 6365 Bill 41 — Advanced Education Statute Repeal Act

Second Reading of Bills ...... 6365 Bill 50 — Human Rights Code Amendment Act, 2018 (continued) A. Weaver S. Cadieux Hon. J. Sims R. Kahlon

Report and Tird Reading of Bills...... 6372 Bill 46 — South Coast British Columbia Transportation Authority Amendment Act (No. 2), 2018 Second Reading of Bills ...... 6372 Bill 50 — Human Rights Code Amendment Act, 2018 (continued) Hon. J. Darcy S. Chandra Herbert Hon. D. Eby Bill 51 — Environmental Assessment Act Hon. G. Heyman P. Milobar E. Ross R. Glumac S. Furstenau D. Barnett S. Gibson R. Leonard T. Shypitka

Reporting of Bills...... 6396 Bill 48 — Temporary Foreign Worker Protection Act

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of the Whole House...... 6396 Bill 41 — Advanced Education Statute Repeal Act S. Gibson A. Weaver Hon. M. Mark Bill 46 — South Coast British Columbia Transportation Authority Amendment Act (No. 2), 2018 Hon. S. Robinson T. Stone Bill 48 — Temporary Foreign Worker Protection Act J. Martin Hon. H. Bains A. Weaver S. Tomson 6353

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 2018 We all know how much we are away from our families, so it’s great to be able to introduce our youngest son, who’s in Te House met at 1:35 p.m. the gallery today — Ben Conroy, who is from Alberta but is slowly transitioning his way home. We look forward to when [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] he will be joining us back in the Kootenays again very soon. Please join me in welcoming him. Routine Business S. Sullivan: From this side of the House, we’d also like to Prayers. welcome the Canadian Home Builders of B.C. Tey’re on the front lines of the housing afordability crisis. I’d just like to Introductions by Members acknowledge them for their work. Tank you. Hon. S. Robinson: I’d like to welcome 30 representatives from the Canadian Home Builders Association of B.C. to A. Weaver: It gives me great pleasure to introduce 16 this House for their very frst Legislature day here in Victor- grade 11 and 12 students from Maria Montessori school in ia. CHBABC has 2,000 members building residential hous- my riding. Tey’re accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Aaron ing in British Columbia. Tey employ 200,000 people and Gillatly. Would the House please make them feel very wel- pay $11.9 billion in wages. Te members that are here are come here today. from communities right across the province. Tey’re from [1:40 p.m.] the Island, from the north, from the Interior and from the Lower Mainland. I’d invite all the members here to join me Hon. D. Eby: I see Chuck Keeling from Great Canadian in welcoming them here to the Legislature. Gaming up in the gallery. Would the House please join me in making him feel welcome. Hon. C. James: It’s my real pleasure to be able to intro- duce, on behalf of government, a very important group that G. Kyllo: I’m very proud to rise today and actually intro- is here today with us in the gallery. duce to the House a very close friend of mine, Bob De Wit, As we do our work here in the Legislature, we know who’s the president of the Greater Vancouver Home Builders that the people who do the hard work are at home in our Association. Bob is a great friend who hails from the metro- communities serving all the members of our community, polis of Sicamous, B.C. We graduated together back in 1986. providing that face, providing the day-to-day support for I can hardly believe that. people who are looking for services, who need that little Anyhow, would the House please make my friend Bob bit of assistance. very welcome. Today in the gallery, we have 75 constituency assistants from the NDP MLA ofces. Tey’re in Victoria for a couple Statements (Standing Order 25B) of days for their conference. Tey’ve come from all over the province to be able to share their ideas, to be able to learn DIWALI AND BANDI CHHOR DIVAS how to better serve our constituents. On behalf of all of us, I would like to not only give them a R. Singh: I want to take a moment to wish the members warm welcome but give them our huge gratitude and appre- of this House and the residents of B.C. a very happy Diwali ciation for making sure that our communities are well rep- and Bandi Chhor Divas. While Diwali is a festival of lights resented because of their hard work that they do each and and symbolizes victory of the good over evil and hope over every day on our behalf. despair, Bandi Chhor Divas celebrates the fght against polit- Tank you, all of you. ical injustice. Both these festivals are celebrated every year across the B. Stewart: It gives me great pleasure today to make an world with enthusiasm by the Hindu, Sikh, Jain and introduction of my sister Andrea McFadden and her hus- Buddhist communities. Canada, being a diverse nation, has band, David, who are in the precinct, in the House today. also embraced these festivals, and today both these occasions Andrea and David are local pioneers in the herb industry, are being observed from coast to coast by Canadians. creating Okanagan Lavender some years ago. Andrea has Today, for the frst time, Diwali was celebrated in the B.C. become, I think, one of North America’s most respected Legislature. A large number of members of the community experts in that particular area. Anyways, they reside in the joined the members of the House in the celebrations. Tis great riding of Kelowna-Mission, and I’d like the House to was a refection of our province’s rich multicultural heritage welcome them. and a celebration of our vast diversity. I hope that the glow of Diwali diyas brings enlighten- Hon. K. Conroy: It gives me a great deal of pleasure — it ment and happiness in everyone’s lives. Wishing you all a must be family day — to introduce a member of our family. very nice Diwali. 6354 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

B.C. YOUTH PARLIAMENT Chuck Westgard was an outstanding two-sport athlete who grew up in North Delta. Afer a successful season in ice L. Reid: Te British Columbia Youth Parliament is an hockey with the Portland Winterhawks, he signed in base- organization that recognizes every young person’s potential ball with the New York Yankees, where he spent two years in to lead and serve in the community. Since 1924, BCYP has the farm system. provided a forum for young people to develop skills in lead- John Cofin started playing football with Delta Rams. ership, organization, public speaking and the parliamentary Afer a successful university career at SFU, he was drafed process and to put these skills into practice through par- by the Edmonton Eskimos. He played seven seasons in liamentary debate. BCYP is not afliated with any political the NFL. A major highlight: winning the Grey Cup with party and is a non-proft organization. Toronto in 1991. BCYP’s year begins with a parliamentary session from Ed Anderson is one of Delta’s most decorated sofball December 21 to 31 in this Legislature, sitting in this very coaches. Anderson had a hand in developing players who assembly. Tey use parliamentary style of debate to plan went on to play at the national team level and earn schol- educational and service projects, establish BCYP’s fnancial arships in U.S. universities. One of the teams inducted was commitments and amend BCYP’s governing legislation. the 1979 North Delta Colt All-Stars baseball team. Tis team At session, members, who are aged 16 to 21 years of age, represented B.C. at the All-Canadian Midget Champion- meet young people from all over the province; debate cab- ships — amazing result, considering that more than half the inet’s legislation, which sets up BCYP activities; debate cur- team lived two blocks from each other. rent local and national issues; learn about debating and the Jill Proctor was one of the special speakers at the event. rules of parliamentary procedure; and elect BCYP’s Premier, She was a true pioneer and a trail-blazer. In 1993, Proctor Deputy Speaker and Leader of the Opposition for the 91st began a journey as a referee that led her to becoming the frst parliament. woman to work a professional match in B.C. and frst female Afer session, members put into action the plans made FIFA-accredited referee in B.C. at session, which usually include volunteer service projects Special thank you to Delta Sports Hall of Fame board of in their home communities — special projects which vary directors — Rick Lewall, Carlene Lewall, Len Stroh, Judi depending on annual legislation but have included summer Stene, Marion McNeill, Steve Fera, Landon Kitigawa, Dal- festivals, children’s day camps and Camp Phoenix. las Pretty and Karen Kilpatrick — for all their work to Each year 97 youth are elected to BCYP as representatives ensure that sport is highlighted in our wonderful com- of their communities. Each applicant must be nominated by munity of Delta. We are very grateful for your service to an organization committed to youth. Each of these 97 applic- our community. ants accepted as a member of BCYP must pay a $395 regis- tration fee. MLAs and MPs are encouraged to provide fund- MOVEMBER FUNDRAISING CAMPAIGN ing to support this worthwhile organization. Members will sit and debate in this legislative chamber for G. Kyllo: I rise in the House today to announce yet anoth- fve days and will be accommodated for four nights in Vic- er new addition to the Kyllo household. No, it’s not a grand- toria. During that time, participants are supervised by mem- child. It’s this breathtaking handlebar moustache that I’ve bers of the board of directors of the Youth Parliament of B.C. been growing for the past week. You can imagine the recep- Alumni Society. In addition, transportation to and from Vic- tion that it’s received from my beautiful wife, Georgina. toria will be provided for all members. Seriously, the reason I’m subjecting myself to growing Tis organization holds a special place in my heart. It was this ’stache is to support an incredibly worthy cause called my pleasure to serve this parliament as Premier in the 1980s. Movember. When this international campaign began back I believe that public service is the rent we pay for our time in 2003, its focus was prostate cancer, a cause that touched on this earth. As MLAs, we have a tremendous responsibility my own family and was a force behind my initial involve- to safeguard democracy. Supporting these amazing, articu- ment. Ten the campaign tackled testicular cancer, which, late parliamentarians is absolutely the way to proceed. like prostrate cancer, was another tough subject for men to Happy 90th session, British Columbia Youth Parliament. talk about. In recent years, Movember has embraced mental health — DELTA SPORTS HALL OF FAME again, another difcult topic for men. Many men were taught from an early age that it’s not manly to cry or to share our R. Kahlon: Last week Delta Sports Hall of Fame honoured feelings. Sometimes we bottle things up until we can’t hold the class of 2018 inductees. What an impressive class it was. them in any longer. Tat is behind an alarming statistic that Te six inductees. Laurel Crosby, a true sport builder, shows that three out of every four suicides are men. served 39 years on the board of directors of B.C. Wheelchair Luckily, Movember is shining a light on these important Sports and two years as the president of the Canadian Para- topics and raising funds for resources to support those in lympic Committee. need. I’m proud that a number of my fellow MLAs have [1:45 p.m.] joined my Movember fundraising crusades over the last Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6355 number of years, with incredible support from our B.C. Lib- Oral Questions eral Party. In fact, we’re the only political party in Canada fundraising for Movember. GOVERNMENT RECORDKEEPING POLICIES Bear with us as we face these difcult issues with these AND USE OF EMAIL BY stunning mustaches and beards. I would like to thank my COMMUNICATIONS CONTRACTOR seven mo-bros and two mo-sisters — colleagues who are joining me in this crusade — plus seven staf and our reli- P. Milobar: On March 2 of this year, Marie Della Mattia gious representative, Pastor Jason Goertzen. used her private Gmail account to create what she called a Please support Movember. group email for her issues management team. Members of that group include four GCPE employees with government MIKE FLEMING email addresses, as well as Matt Hannah. To be specifc, the group message includes [email protected]. A. Olsen: Today I stand in this House and pay our col- To the Minister of Citizens’ Services, what justifes a gov- lective respects to a constituent of Saanich North and the ernment issues management team communicating through Islands and a friend of this Legislative Assembly. For the past private Gmail and @bcndp email accounts? 48 years, the Christmas tree that has lit the main rotunda of this House has been donated by Mike Fleming. On October Hon. J. Sims: I want to take this opportunity to wish my 27, Mike passed away suddenly of a heart attack while har- colleagues on that side of the House, this side of the House vesting Christmas trees in the Kootenays. and all British Columbians a happy Diwali. Mike grew up on the Saanich Peninsula on a ten-acre Let me say that when it comes to this particular case, this farm near Elk Lake. He’s a graduate of Claremont Secondary individual was in employment for a very short time. Her School. He worked for more than two decades in Haida employment role was to communicate with our senior com- Gwaii as a log scaler. In 1968, Mike established Woodstock munications ofcer, and it did not involve lengthy emails or Evergreens, his frst Christmas tree enterprise. sending emails. It was to provide advice. Further to that, this Following his retirement from log-scaling, he partnered particular employee ceased being a member of government with his sister Joan, and they established the Saanichton or employee on the 15th of January. Christmas Tree Farm in 1981. You can’t miss their farm on the Saanich Peninsula if you’ve taken a drive down East Mr. Speaker: Kamloops–North Tompson on a supple- Saanich Road. Mike and Joan grew more than Christmas mental. trees. You can stop by their roadside stand and purchase fruits, vegetables, fowers and even ostrich eggs. P. Milobar: We’re talking about March, not January. We [1:50 p.m.] have a diferent defnition, I guess, of what constitutes a But Mike’s reputation was built on Christmas trees. He lengthy email. was even the past president of the British Columbia Te March 2 email from Della Mattia reads: “Hey, issues Christmas Tree Council. Mike was a long-standing mem- management team, I’ve created a group email.” Te main ber of the Saanich Fair and a proud supporter of the local body of the message, nearly a full page, has been redacted 4-H Club. He has a deep love of animals — the ducks, under section 13 of the act “citing policy advice or recom- chickens, pheasants, sheep, pigs, cows and turkeys were all mendations to government.” an important part of Mike’s life, but no more than that of Let’s be clear about what this is. Tis is a parallel commu- his beloved black Lab, Lucy. nications network which uses personal Gmail and B.C. NDP I’m honoured to be asked to stand today and recognize email accounts to circumvent the rules. and celebrate the life of Mike Fleming on behalf of all of Will the Minister of Citizens’ Services confrm that this is us. He will be missed on the Saanich Peninsula and in this entirely inappropriate and order a full review? House. When we see the Christmas tree this year, perhaps we’ll take another moment to be thankful for the generos- Hon. J. Sims: I want to thank my colleague for that ques- ity of people like Mike that make our province an amazing tion. I want to remind him that when they were sitting on place. this side of the House, they were in very clear violation of Tank you, Mike Fleming. HÍSW̱ ḴE, and may you rest freedom of information and had a very embarrassing record in peace. of breaking records management rules. In clear violation of the rules, they got caught deleting emails afer an FOI request came in. Tat was wrong. On top of that, they were triple-deleting to cover it up. Tat’s also wrong. Even when someone blew the whistle on them, guess what. Tey tried to cover it up. [1:55 p.m.] Te members on the other side of the House have asked 6356 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 this question again, and let me repeat my answer. In this spe- government business through her personal Gmail account cifc example, the employee stopped being an employee on with a B.C. NDP account. January 15. Afer that time, she no longer had government Duck; dodge, Minister. Let’s answer the question. Tis is a email. She was no longer an employee. She continued to very serious issue. What is the Minister of Citizens’ Services provide occasional consultation work as a private contractor going to do about an obvious violation of the rules? for GCPE, providing high-level communications advice but was not a government employee. Hon. J. Sims: When I get that line of questioning, I’m Contractors typically don’t use government-issued email always amazed that it’s coming from that side of the House. addresses. Tis is the norm across government, as it was, I Let me quote from the OIPC news release, October 22, want to remind my colleagues, under the old government. 2015: “In the course of this investigation, we uncovered neg- Records prepared by contractors in carrying out government ligent searches for records, a failure to keep adequate email work are under the control of government and are respons- records, a failure to document searches and the wilful ive to FOI requests. As a contractor…. destruction of records responsive to an access request. Taken together, these practices threaten the integrity of access to Mr. Speaker: Tank you, Minister. Tank you. information in British Columbia.” Member for Kamloops–North Tompson on a second [2:00 p.m.] supplemental. Tis individual was no longer an employee, was a con- tractor, and the emails available have been provided. P. Milobar: Hopefully, the minister will stick to worrying about what’s under her purview in her time frame as minis- Mr. Speaker: Prince George–Valemount on a supple- ter, because we’re talking about March of 2018. mental. Della Mattia is no ordinary contractor. Te Globe and Mail describes her as “one of the NDP’s top operatives.” Tax- S. Bond: November 10, 2017 — let’s take a look at another payers are paying this NDP operative $150 per hour to over- Della Mattia email on political tactics. “If we’re thinking of it see GCPE employees. Tey’re public servants that she’s over- as selling our agenda and helping others to do the same, we seeing. She’s in clear violation of the rules and the law when can send it to the wider, I’m thinking, people in the chatter- she uses private Gmail and B.C. NDP email accounts to com- ing classes of the lef, party leadership and all political staf municate with the government issues management team. — CAs, MAs and EAs.” It brings a whole new defnition to Tere have to be consequences when people break the the word “political staf.” rules. How will the Minister of Citizens’ Services take care of Tis is someone who apparently, and under the watch this behaviour? of this minister, is prepared to cross any line between B.C. NDP staf — political staf — and legislative staf and the Hon. J. Sims: I want to thank my colleague for that ques- government. tion. As a contract employee, she rejected her assigned gov- As I said, this person was not an employee at the time, ernment account and used her own Gmail account to set and contractors typically don’t use government-issued email up group messages with the B.C. NDP email address of a addresses. Tis is the norm across government, as it was government communications executive director, none other when they were in government. than Matt Hannah. Records prepared by contractors in carrying out govern- Enough is enough. Te minister can keep answering the ment work are under the control of government and are question of her piece of paper. But let’s be clear, it is time to responsive to FOI requests. As a contractor, she has provided fnd out… many pages of records in response to FOI requests from her non-government email account. Interjections.

S. Bond: Well, the minister can try to duck, dodge and Mr. Speaker: Members. minimize, but let’s listen to the business that was conducted by Della Mattia and see if she has a diferent answer. In a S. Bond: …when this minister will stand up and termin- November 2, 2017, email, Della Mattia describes political ate Della Mattia’s contract. tactics that she wanted to implement with the NDP govern- ment. She writes: “It can go to all MLAs and all political staf. Hon. J. Sims: It’s the same question, and let me repeat the And by the way, I’d include CAs and LAs in that too. Maybe same answer. Tis person was no longer an employee as of some of those GCPE folks that are doing political stuf — January 15. Karl and Matt’s team.” Two months later Della Mattia joined the very GCPE Interjections. teams that were “doing political stuf” and began conducting Mr. Speaker: Members, we shall hear the response. Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6357

Hon. J. Sims: Tis particular person was a contractor. 2015. I’m happy to report that in 2017, that number went Like other contractors, many of them, they do not have gov- down to 10,000 hectares, so a decrease of almost 40 percent. ernment emails. Tose emails that were available from their account have been made available. Tis individual did high- Mr. Speaker: Te Leader of the Tird Party on a supple- level advice for our communications people. mental. Let me tell you that we’re not going to take any lessons from that side of the House, because they are a government A. Weaver: Numerous jurisdictions have banned or of “triple-deletes” and “win at all costs.” restricted the use of glyphosate. Tese include the Neth- erlands, Germany, France, Portugal, El Salvador, Argentina USE OF GLYPHOSATE IN and Denmark, to name but a few. Meanwhile, in British FOREST MANAGEMENT Columbia, we continue to spray tens of thousands, or at least 10,000 hectares of forests annually with glyphosate. We are A. Weaver: Every year in B.C., 16,000 hectares of forests contributing to the severity of wildfres, harming wildlife are sprayed with an herbicide known as glyphosate. It’s and watching the chemical work its way through our food sprayed over forests that have recently been logged and supply, all without any sound justifcation. replanted to kill broadleaf plant species that might inhibit We should be thinking about the precautionary prin- the growth of lodgepole pine seedlings. Te result is reduced ciple here, not waiting until it’s too late. As Rachel Carson plant diversity, leading to monocropped forests that are vul- once wrote: “Te right to make a dollar at whatever cost nerable to more frequent and destructive wildfres and beetle is seldom challenged. It is the public that is being asked to infestations. assume the risks.” Te World Health Organization has warned that To the Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Oper- glyphosate is likely carcinogenic. It also has genotoxic, cyto- ations and Rural Development, we are risking a lot for ques- toxic and endocrine-disrupting properties. For decades, tionable beneft. How can the minister continue to justify the researchers have been reporting reduced numbers of ongoing use of glyphosates in our provincial forests? rodents, moose, insects and birds in forests that have been sprayed. Hon. D. Donaldson: I want to acknowledge that we’re To the Minister of Forest, Lands and Natural Resource looking for ways to do better in the forests, especially around Operations, if our forests exist for their monetary value once the application of herbicides so that other forestry innov- felled, glyphosate is an efcient tool. If we consider the value ations such as the use of superior orchard seed, improved of our wildlife ecosystems and human health, it is a veritable nursery techniques, fast-growing seedlings and well-timed threat. What are the values that inform our ongoing use of planting are also reducing the amount of herbicide being glyphosate in B.C. forests? required. We continue to investigate other silviculture strategies Hon. D. Donaldson: Tank you very much to the Leader that take into account climate change and managing for resi- of the Tird Party for the question on glyphosate. It’s a topic lient forest ecosystems. I’m very excited about the work of re- that I’ve been following closely since 1990. It’s of great establishing forests afer they’ve been disturbed by wildfres interest to people around B.C. and recreating a forest mosaic so that deciduous as well as Glyphosate is broadleaf herbicide. Many members in the conifer stands are part of that mosaic, leading to more resili- House might recognize it as the active ingredient in ent forest ecotypes. Roundup. I want to say that our government is committed to We’ve also been doing work on the impacts of glyphosate protecting the important biodiversity of forests while ensur- on wildlife, specifcally with moose. Tat’s a huge concern to ing a continued vibrant forestry sector. many people in rural areas — moose populations. We want Te herbicide glyphosate is approved by Health Canada to make sure we’re responding to scientifc evidence, so we for use in forest management and is used selectively to have a program where we’ve initiated a two-year study to improve survival and growth of trees. In B.C., any users must look at the impacts of herbicide spraying on feed and moose follow the Integrated Pest Management Act and take steps to forage and nutritional quality of moose forage. minimize impacts on the environment, including fsh-bear- We anticipate the preliminary results will be available in ing streams — a very important consideration. 2019, and we look forward to implementing that research, [2:05 p.m.] based on scientifc evidence. B.C.’s reforestation practices are continually updated based on new scientifc research and information, and GOVERNMENT RECORDKEEPING POLICIES recently the ministry started to allow increased levels of aspen and broadleaves in managed stands throughout B.C., J. Tornthwaite: Yesterday the Minister of Citizens’ Ser- which will lead to a further decline in the use of herbicides. vices could not explain why 18 individuals deleted every I know the member quoted a fgure of 16,000 hectares single email and text message that they created for months where glyphosate was applied. Tat was a number from at a time. Perhaps she can explain why her colleague, the 6358 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

Minister of Education, deleted all but one single email for we’re going to do things right. And we’ll never apologize for the entire month of May, the very same month the Premier working towards perfection. declared he was profoundly disappointed. To the Minister of Citizens’ Services, can she explain this J. Johal: We’ve been listening to this minister now for near complete lack of records produced by her colleague? three days. It’s clear she has absolutely no credibility on this issue. NDP operatives paid by taxpayers continue to decide Hon. J. Sims: I want to thank my colleague for that ques- every single email they produce is transitory — so no emails tion. with instructions or advice or any emails that contain infor- We all know about record management and, as the Premi- mation about a decision. Te public just doesn’t buy it. er committed and we carried out, on this side of the House, Will the minister reinstitute the practice of ministers and we know that if we have erred, we do take corrective steps. staf retaining all sent emails? Te Premier stood in this House and said that we would be reviewing all of the accounts, the seven accounts, when Hon. J. Sims: When I hear the member across the way no responses came in. Tat was done. Te FOI responses stand up and speak about credibility and speak about integ- were applied again, and those have been posted on the rity, I have to remind him that he’s now sitting on the side website. of the House with colleagues who displayed very little of [2:10 p.m.] that when it came to record management, when it came to We all know that good record management requires that responding to serious issues around the Highway of Tears, we go through our emails. We delete the transitory emails when it came to responding to questions that had to do with that gunk up the system, and we keep emails that are to do child safety. with government business that are related to the decisions I will say in this House, once again, that we pride ourselves we make and the work we do. Tat is what our ministers on taking the right steps to make sure that we get record are doing. management right. Extra training was given in June, and we plan to keep giving training because we know we want to get Mr. Speaker: Te member for North Vancouver–Sey- this right. Te public expects their government to make sure mour on a supplemental. that records are kept properly. Unlike that side, we’re going to get it right. J. Tornthwaite: Almost a dozen education news releases were released in May, each requiring decisions to approve Mr. Speaker: Te member for Richmond-Queensbor- quotes and content. But the Minister of Education kept just ough on a supplemental. one email, a CKNW news article he forwarded about trans- porting baby chickens. He didn’t keep emails with inform- J. Johal: Last spring this Premier said he was profoundly ation about a decision, like approving a briefng agenda or disappointed that his government broke the rules. But the giving instructions to staf — nothing but a chicken story. fact is, listening to this minister and the evidence that we My question is to the Minister of Citizens’ Services. have provided on this side, you’re still doing it. Te govern- Did the Minister of Education really not produce any use- ment is still doing it. Now we know that NDP political oper- ful information for the entire month of May except for a atives like Della Mattia and Matt Hannah use personal and chicken story? party email accounts for government business. To the Minister of Citizens’ Services, why is there no Interjections. accountability? [2:15 p.m.] Mr. Speaker: Members, the minister will respond when it’s quiet. Hon. J. Sims: Te accountability is that the emails that were available have been forwarded. Tis person was a con- Hon. J. Sims: Tank you, Mr. Speaker. tractor. Contractors don’t normally get access to have a gov- It’s a pleasure to be able to answer that question. You ernment email. Te other side has the information they were know what? We take record management very seriously. We looking for. Tere is no other story here. provided extra training in the month of June, and we make sure that the training is ongoing — unlike the people sitting COVERAGE OF EXPENSES FOR on the other side of the House. Tey have an abysmal record ADVANCED EDUCATION MINISTER of keeping their emails and tracking the business of govern- ment. Not only were they a government of quick wins, a gov- M. Stilwell: Te Core Policy and Procedures Manual for ernment of triple deletes, but they were also denying things travel expenses for ministers states: “A per diem includes even afer they got caught. allowances for incidentals, such as gratuities, porterage, per- I’m so proud that I am part of a government led by a sonal phone calls, laundry and dry cleaning.” Premier who says we are going to take corrective steps and Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6359

Is the Minister of Advanced Education aware of this Mr. Speaker: Te member for Surrey-Cloverdale, new policy, and does she follow these rules? question.

Hon. M. Mark: I thank the member for the question, M. Hunt: Mr. Speaker, just making sure. All of my ques- and yes, I’m aware of the policies around travel expenses tions must be to ministers? and policy. Mr. Speaker: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Parksville-Qualicum on a supplemental. M. Hunt: Okay, very good. M. Stilwell: I’m glad to hear that the member is aware Ten a further…. of the policy, but I’m wondering, then. Over an 11-month period, the Minister of Advanced Education claimed almost Mr. Speaker: You will be reminded that the minister took $500 in dry-cleaning bills — expenses that are already it under notice, so you will be asking a new question. covered by per diems. How does the Minister of Advanced Education justify her M. Hunt: Tat’s correct. I am asking a subsequent ques- expenses? tion. Te subsequent question is this. Te guidelines for the Welfare Food Challenge read…. Hon. M. Mark: I will take the question on notice and provide the document that I read as we got orientation Interjection. when we came into cabinet and produce it to the ofcial opposition. M. Hunt: It is a new question. “Participants will be asked not to accept any kind of char- PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY PER-DIEM ity or other food not coming out of their $19 budget…. If ALLOWANCE CLAIM DURING you cheat — have extra food — please own up.” WELFARE FOOD CHALLENGE Te question to the minister is: has the parliamentary sec- retary owned up? M. Hunt: A year ago the Parliamentary Secretary for Poverty Reduction participated in the $19-a-week Welfare Hon. S. Simpson: Te Welfare Food Challenge is an inter- Food Challenge, with pictures on social media of two hard- esting initiative by the community to shine a light on issues boiled eggs for day 2 breakfast. Yet expense records show of poverty. that she claimed full per diems for four out of the seven days [2:20 p.m.] that week, including the very day of her posting, pocketing What I’m pleased with is that afer more than a decade an extra $225. of not raising rates for income assistance, we raised those Can the parliamentary secretary explain why she claimed rates in the frst three months. Afer 16 years of that side full per diems? ignoring issues of poverty in this province, we passed poverty reduction legislation this week. When they were Mr. Speaker: I’m sorry. Te parliamentary secretary…. pulling back the bus pass, we put a transportation sup- Let us have the Government House Leader respond. plement in place for persons with disabilities. Maybe that member should ask his colleagues why they, when they Hon. M. Farnworth: Tank you, hon. Speaker. Questions were government, turned their backs on people living should be directed to the appropriate minister, not to parlia- poor and abandoned them for 16 years. mentary secretaries. GOVERNMENT RECORDKEEPING POLICIES Mr. Speaker: Yes. Member, might you redirect your ques- tion to the appropriate minister. M. Polak: Whether it has to do with freedom of informa- tion and the handling of records or, indeed, the handling of M. Hunt: Te person who participated was the Parlia- expenses, what we’re witnessing here is a clear pattern of not mentary Secretary for Poverty Reduction, so that would be adhering to the rules. to the Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduc- tion. Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: I’ll consider that your frst question. Mr. Speaker: Members, the House Leader for the ofcial opposition has the foor. Hon. S. Simpson: Tank you, hon. Speaker. I’m happy to take that question on notice. M. Polak: Tank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s clear that what’s happening here is a pattern, and it’s a 6360 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 pattern of thinking that they are above the rules and don’t Government Motions on Notice need to follow them. MOTION 31 — REFERRAL OF PROPOSED Interjections. AMENDMENTS TO BILL 45 TO COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. C. James: I move: M. Polak: Maybe we’ve struck a nerve here, but all the [Be it resolved that the Message and the Amendments accompanying bluster in the world doesn’t cover it up. Whether it happens the same be referred to the Committee of the House having in charge to be expenses or records, there is a responsibility. Tere Bill (No. 45) intituled Budget Measures Implementation (Speculation is an onus upon those who have claimed that they wish to and Vacancy Tax) Act, 2018.] be transparent and open and work with integrity. Tere’s an Speaking to the motion, the amendment that is enclosed onus on them to actually deal with these matters and not in the motion creates a requirement for the Minister of Fin- laugh about them, not poke fun and certainly not poke back ance to conduct an annual consultation with the mayors in to somebody else’s issues. the afected areas to review the speculation and vacancy tax. Tere are some very clear ways in which these things could be fxed, but the frst, the beginning of this, has to be [L. Reid in the chair.] people being held accountable. My question to the Minister of Citizens’ Services is: when Te amendment directs that revenues that are raised by is accountability going to take place for freedom-of-infor- the speculation and vacancy tax will be spent on afordable mation requests, for documentation, for handling of docu- housing projects in the region that the revenues are raised ments, and when are we going to see this government insist in. And it also sets the tax rate for Canadian citizens and that ministers and staf retain their sent email items? permanent residents who reside outside British Columbia and who are not members of a satellite family at 0.5 per- Hon. J. Sims: I want to thank my colleague for that cent. Tis, obviously, is a part of the afordability measures question that came at the end of something. Let me tell that we are taking. you that I and my ministry and my staf are very proud of the work that we have done on freedom of information. A. Weaver: Just a few words, briefy, on this motion. I’m We have been gathering information and having consulta- pleased, obviously, to rise and take my place in the debate on tions, and we’re going to be working on legislation that will this. Te motion to move the amendments to the speculation come before the House. and vacancy tax act. But talk about transparency and getting things done. For procedural reasons, government had to table these Under our government, the FOI on-time rate increased to 90 amendments. You’ll see some amendments I put in on the percent, up from the previous 80 percent, despite receiving order paper as well. But the amendments that government 13 percent more requests. Under our government, the time it is tabling refect the agreement that we were able to reach takes to respond to general FOI requests has decreased by an with government on this tax a few weeks ago. I’m pleased average of fve days, despite the increase in request volume. to be supporting moving them to committee today. Tese Under our government, British Columbians requesting their amendments do three things — the three things as prom- own records now receive their fles, on average, seven days ised. Again, on the order paper, you will see three amend- sooner, despite the increase in volume. ments that I put in that are virtually identical. But for pro- We are undertaking FOI changes in a methodical and cedural reasons, government is introducing these amend- judicious manner because we want to make sure we get ments. this right, and we are committed to accountability and Te frst is that mayors from afected municipalities will transparency and will take no lessons from people sitting be consulted annually by the Minister of Finance on how on that side. the tax is afecting their communities, with metrics that are being developed. Over the past number of months, I’ve con- [End of question period.] sistently raised the need for local governments to have a more signifcant role in determining what happens in their Orders of the Day communities. Te annual review of the tax with mayors will give communities a clear channel to making the case, based Hon. M. Farnworth: In Committee A, in the Douglas Fir on evidence, for how the tax should apply to their com- Room, I call committee stage on Bill 41, the Advanced Edu- munities and whether they should be excluded. cation Statute Repeal Act. In this chamber, I call government Te minister will also be required to report the results of Motion 31. the annual review to cabinet to make a decision on whether [2:25 p.m.] the tax should continue to be applied in each of the specifed Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6361

areas. While I would have preferred for local governments to Hon. M. Farnworth: I call second reading of Bill 50, have the ability to opt out automatically, this is a comprom- Human Rights Code Amendment Act. ise position that I feel I can support and my colleagues can support as well. Second Reading of Bills Te second amendment requires that revenue raised by the tax will be used for housing initiatives within the region BILL 50 — HUMAN RIGHTS CODE it came from. Tis is also important — that local communit- AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 ies directly beneft from the tax raised so that it is not viewed as a tax grab by government that rolls the moneys into pro- Hon. D. Eby: I move the bill now be read a second time. vincial cofers to be lost thereafer. Tere needs to be a clear Te Human Rights Code Amendment Act, 2018, amends impact on the communities because the justifcation for the the human rights code to re-establish the Human Rights speculation tax is, of course, that there’s an externality, a Commission for British Columbia. Tis task is part of gov- social cost, that we’re asking people in British Columbia and ernment’s agenda to build a better British Columbia for elsewhere to internalize through the application of the spec- everyone, which includes fostering a society in which every- ulation and vacancy tax. one is treated with respect and dignity, regardless of where [2:30 p.m.] they came from, who they are, who they love, their ability, Te third amendment equalizes rates for Canadians and and to ensure that rights and opportunities are provided British Columbians. It brings the rate for Canadians down without discrimination. from 1 percent to half a percent. Now, this is a very big One of the obvious issues that came forward once we were change. Back in the spring when this tax frst came out, it tasked with this work was how to establish a modern human was 2 percent for other Canadians. Here, afer many, many rights commission for British Columbia. We didn’t simply months of working with government to come to razor-focus want to re-establish the old model. Instead, we wanted to this tax to exactly its intended purposes, it’s very reassuring make sure that the model introduced for British Columbia to see the rate has come down to 0.5 percent. was built from the ground up, addressing modern concerns I believe fundamentally that from a fairness perspective, and structured for success. we should not be penalizing Canadians by making them In order for us to understand what those concerns truly pay higher rates just because they happen to live in another were and to hear what British Columbians wanted to see in a province. We are one country. I feel that as one country, we human rights commission, we needed to ask British Colum- need to treat our citizens equally across that country. bians, particularly the afected groups. To that end, the Par- In addition to these amendments, government has made liamentary Secretary for Sport and Multiculturalism, Ravi a number of small changes in the legislation that go a long Kahlon, led an intensive eight-week public engagement last way to limiting the unfair impacts of this tax on Canadian fall which provided us with a range of diverse perspectives homeowners who aren’t speculators. to help shape a new human rights commission and, more Since it was frst introduced in the budget, I’ve been hear- broadly, a new era of human rights protections in British ing scores of cases that I’ve been bringing to government Columbia. over the past eight months from people who are not specu- Afer the conclusion of the public engagement, Parlia- lators and who should not be facing the tax, as well as other mentary Secretary Kahlon presented me with his report, examples where the speculation tax shouldn’t apply. providing 25 recommendations for the purpose and func- tions of a new human rights commission, the B.C. Human Deputy Speaker: Tank you, Member. Rights Tribunal and the Human Rights Clinic and suggested priority issues for the new human rights commissioner. A. Weaver: My understanding, hon. Speaker, is that on a Following the receipt of this report, we collaborated motion, I am able to deliver a full 30 minutes. with other jurisdictions and with human rights experts, involving the sharing of best practices, learning from chal- Deputy Speaker: Member, this is purely a procedural lenges faced by the previous B.C. Human Rights Commis- motion. Tis allows the amendments to be placed before the sion and aligning them with the recommendations in the House for debate. Not at this time. report. Tis has been at the centre of developing this new proposed legislation. A. Weaver: Is this not a debatable motion, hon. Speaker? Since 2002, B.C. has been without a human rights com- mission. Te turbulent history of human rights commissions Deputy Speaker: Not at this time. Tis is a motion to in B.C. speaks to the negative impact of partisanship on ser- refer. vices that are basic to civil society. Troughout the public engagement, we found that the Motion approved. need to create a stable, independent human rights com- mission was a common theme amongst stakeholders. Tat is why the bill creates a human rights commissioner who 6362 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 will be an independent ofcer of the Legislature. Tis commissioner must have the public’s trust. Trust can be model is meant to ensure the longevity of the commission- earned by understanding the lived experiences of people er and to ensure that the commissioner is able to proact- facing human rights issues. Tat is why the amendments ively promote, advocate for, protect and advance respect establish a human rights advisory council: to represent the for human rights in B.C. province’s diverse regions and populations, to provide the Te commissioner will have a key function of educating commissioner with a sounding board for its ideas and to British Columbians on the full range of human rights to highlight public interest concerns. prevent and eliminate discriminatory practices, including Te amendments will also extend the time limit for fling systemic discrimination. complaints at the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal from six [2:35 p.m.] months to one year, while maintaining the tribunal’s discre- Te commissioner will promote and strengthen the tion to accept late-fled complaints in certain circumstances. human rights culture in British Columbia in order to foster Tis is in direct response to hearing from British Colum- social change in a positive way to respect all people in our bians that our tribunal time limits were out of step with province and will have the power to develop educational other Canadian jurisdictions and that having a very short policies and guidelines to promote human rights. six-month period to fle a discrimination complaint com- It is envisioned that by giving the commissioner the pounded their feelings of being marginalized. appropriate tools to promote as well as protect human Enthusiastic stakeholders urged us to be bold with our rights, that discriminatory practices, policies and pro- new human rights commission, building from the ground grams will be reduced and eventually — we all hope, I’m up to face modern challenges and deliver new services in sure — eliminated. new ways. With this bill, there is certainly a new chapter Te commissioner will have the power to initiate inquir- being opened in the history of human rights in B.C. Te ies into human rights issues and issues of systemic dis- Human Rights Commission will work to challenge us all and crimination, in order to hold governments, institutions to end widespread structures and systems of discrimination and the private sector to account. At the conclusion of that may be facing people in our province. an inquiry, the commissioner may make a report with An independent commissioner reporting to the Legislat- recommendations in order to reduce, prevent and elimin- ive Assembly will allow for open and candid human rights ate issues of discrimination. promotion, discussion and protection in British Columbia. Tese inquiry powers will come into force at a future date, once the commissioner’s mandate is underway. Tis M. Lee: I rise today to speak to Bill 50, the human rights will allow the commissioner to focus the commissioner’s code amendment. early mandate on engaging with British Columbians to hear First, let me start out by saying that I know that all of us in about what systemic discrimination issues and patterns are this House recognize, no matter which side of the House we most critically in need of attention and to allow the commis- sit on, that we all believe and share in the importance of pro- sioner to develop education and training programs, policies tecting human rights and that it is an important role that we and guidelines to begin to address, reduce and eliminate play to ensure that that is the case in this province. Of course, these widespread patterns of discrimination in our society. it’s important to continue and ensure that we have places of Educating the public — in particular, employers, service dialogue to increase the understanding to promote equality providers, members of disadvantaged groups as well as those and to prevent discrimination. who are advantaged — about their human rights and oblig- I certainly am mindful of the diversity that we have in ations can foster a culture of respect. It can be a useful our province. I’ve talked before about the history of my fam- preventative tool in reducing the likelihood of human rights ily. In the mid-1980s, as a university student, when I frst violations. got involved in the community in Chinatown, I served as Tis bill does not change the mandate of the B.C. Human a member of a local community organization under the Rights Tribunal. B.C. will continue to have a direct-access human rights committee for the Chinese Benevolent Asso- tribunal. Tat is, the tribunal will continue to directly accept ciation. For some time in the mid-1986 period, I spent time discrimination complaints and continue its screening prac- working on issues around head tax redress — one example tices to determine if complaints should be formally accepted of what is racial discrimination through the history of our for fling. country and our province. Tis means the commissioner will not have a gatekeeper [2:40 p.m.] role. It’s a key change from B.C.’s previous human rights More recently the leader of our opposition has spoken in commission model, which acted in a gatekeeper role to so many diferent ways about the importance of the equality investigate and screen human rights complaints before they of women in the workplace and in leadership roles, includ- could be resolved by the tribunal. Retaining the direct-access ing in our government. It’s for the importance of these issues tribunal model will avoid what was ofen criticized as a that we continue to work to eliminate discrimination in our lengthy investigative process at the former commission. province — in our workplaces, in our schools, in our com- For the human rights commissioner to be efective, the Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6363 munities — and it’s the reason why I support this bill, with the council were expanded to allow it to deal with allegations the establishment of a new Human Rights Commission. of systemic discrimination. Te revised act also allowed the As we speak about Bill 50 and the establishment of this council to set up special programs, including employment new commission, I think it’s important to refect on the his- equity programs. tory of human rights legislation in our province. Te frst Further amendments to the human rights legislation piece of human rights legislation in British Columbia was occurred in this province four years later, in 1996. Tose introduced in 1953, which actually was the year my father changes were based on a report done in 1993 by UBC law came to this country from Hong Kong. It was an act to professor Bill Black. Tey resulted in the government ensure fair remuneration to female employees, an act passing another set of amendments to the human rights code designed to fght wage discrimination against women. Tis and the administrative system that supported it. Tat was, of act was designed to investigate and adjudicate claims. course, on the provincial scene in this province. Tis is an example of where the history of human rights Most importantly during this period, we had the federal had started. Yet I know that the member for Surrey-Clover- Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which came into force in dale has talked about the issues that continue to arise in 1982 — and with it, section 15 of the Charter, the equality terms of wage discrimination amongst women. It’s still an provisions, which came into force in 1985. Te Charter and issue that is very critical to address in our workplaces and in the judicial decisions interpreting it have had a signifcant our companies, in the corporate environment. impact on the development of our understanding of human Tere were various revisions and changes and additions to rights, including in this province. human rights law in British Columbia over the next 15 years. [2:45 p.m.] In 1969, the government of the day passed a more complete With that as a backdrop, I wish to speak to the previous Human Rights Act. Tis act continued the existing wage dis- changes that were made by the government in 2002. Tat crimination provisions and detailed other types of prohib- previous government looked at the then existing commis- ited employment discrimination. A director was appointed sion, which had wait times in the years, and determined that under the act, who had the power to investigate claims and it wasn’t doing its job properly. to try to efect a settlement. Failing that, the case went to the Tat commission was inefective and contained redund- Human Rights Commission, an organization that followed ant and competing bodies. As many have said, instead of an investigative model set out in 1953. working to solve problems, the previous commission ofen In 1973 in this province, a new and enhanced human made things worse due to delays in fnding resolutions, rights code was enacted by the Dave Barrett government which all too frequently led to long-drawn-out litigation that — under frst-past-the-post. It contained a list of response forced respondents to pay expensive legal bills and wait for mechanisms to complaints. years for resolution, while complainants were equally frus- trated in their desire and wish to get on with their lives. [Te bells were rung.] At the time, the previous government insisted on putting in place a system that brought, as the Attorney General just I dare say, in memory of the Hon. Dave Barrett, the bells spoke to, direct access to the tribunal. Tat is a system of dir- ring. ect access that is being maintained under this Bill 50. Let me just say that that new enhanced human rights code Following that change back in 2003, there was an incred- enacted by the Dave Barrett government contained a list of ible increase in the cases heard at the tribunal, with the response mechanisms to complaints. Most signifcantly, the removal of the commission. In 2003, with this direct access 1973 code established the original Human Rights Commis- — the frst year afer the previous government had made that sion, which was aimed at promoting the act and the provi- change — the tribunal heard more than four times as many sions that it contained. cases. Te following year, it tripled again. Te next major revision of human rights legislation Te number of cases increased almost exponentially and occurred in 1984. Tis revised act continued to prohibit wait times decreased from years to months. Tis change to a other forms of discrimination but was designed to narrow direct-access tribunal was made to have a system that could the legislation and restrict enforcement powers. As well, the be efcient, efective and restore confdence in human rights onus for the complaint was transferred from the commission protections in our province. to the complainant. We are pleased that under Bill 50 this government is In 1984, the government also created a fve-person maintaining that direct-access role of the tribunal that the Human Rights Council. Following the investigation of a previous government established back in 2003. In fact, as the complaint, the council could submit a report to the minister, Attorney General mentioned, as a result of the consultation although this power was never exercised. Instead, when a process the member for Delta North conducted, in his report decision was made to refer a complaint, it was done so by a he lauded this direct-access model. “Te general consensus I council member. heard during the consultation process is that British Colum- A further overhaul of human rights legislation in this bians want to keep the current ‘direct-access’ tribunal mod- province was made in 1992, when the remedial powers of el. Many said that it would be a mistake to turn back the 6364 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

clock by creating a commission with a ‘gatekeeper’ function School. I’ve just been talking to them down in the rotunda, to investigate particular complaints that should be resolved and they’re very excited about coming here. Tey are with speedily by the tribunal. Wait times for access to early resol- their teacher, Cheryl Hocking, and a number of parents are utions and adjudications were reduced from years to months with them. Tere are 19 grade 5 students. in British Columbia through the implementation of the dir- So far, their best experience of their trip to Victoria has ect-access tribunal.” been, variously, a visit to the B.C. museum, the hot chocol- Well, I must say that a workable system for bringing com- ate that some had and the car ride down. I’m hoping that plaints forward for resolution is certainly an important con- as they sit down and listen to the debate about the amend- dition and requirement for a successful human rights sys- ment to the B.C. human rights code that we’re having at tem, but it is not the only foundation. Under the current the moment, they will be completely engaged in the polit- human rights code, a focus on education and information ical system, they’ll see that we observe the decorum of the about human rights being provided to the public is a Legislature, and they will learn good things and enjoy the responsibility there for the Attorney General and the human rest of their visit. rights tribunal. With that, I hope that the House will make all these stu- Under the current human rights code, the Attorney Gen- dents from the Campbell River Christian School very wel- eral is responsible under section 5. “Te minister,” being the come. Attorney General, “is responsible for developing and con- ducting a program of public education and information Second Reading of Bills designed to promote an understanding of this code.” Fur- thermore, under section 6 of that human rights code, the BILL 50 — HUMAN RIGHTS CODE Attorney General “may conduct or encourage research into AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 matters relevant to this code and carry out consultations rel- (continued) evant to this code.” In Bill 50, the responsibilities will be shifed from the M. Lee: I will just bring greetings, as well, from myself as Attorney General to the commissioner with a new commis- the MLA for Vancouver-Langara and the Attorney General sion. When the move was made to move away from the com- critic. What I’m about to do is continue my comments, for mission model…. the beneft of our guests in the gallery, on this bill. I was talking about the shif of responsibilities under Bill Interjection. 50 for the purpose of public education, information, con- ducting research and consultation — that those responsibil- M. Lee: I would like to hold my place and adjourn the ities are being shifed under this Bill 50 to the commissioner. debate. I will note that when the move was made back in 2003 to a more focused direct-access tribunal model and away from a M. Lee moved adjournment of debate. commission model, many not-for-proft and civil organiza- tions were doing excellent work in our province to advance Motion approved. human rights. Tey continue that work today. [2:50 p.m.] In fact, as many in this House recognize and acknowledge, both the Attorney General and the Leader of the Opposition, Hon. M. Farnworth: I apologize to my colleague for the at one point in time in the history, have led one of those key interruption of his remarks. organizations. Tat is the B.C. Civil Liberties Association. I would call committee on Bill 46, South Coast British As I said earlier, the protection of human rights is one of Columbia Transportation Authority Amendment Act in the the primary duties of any democratic government. It’s what Douglas Fir Room, known as Committee A. In this chamber, all of us in this House clearly recognize and support. Brit- I will call continued second reading debate on Bill 50, the ish Columbia has been a leader when it comes to access to Human Rights Code Amendment Act. justice resources and alternative resources to do that, as well as building out digital access to the justice system. We need Deputy Speaker: One moment, Member. to continue to support and ensure that work, including by Te Minister of Transportation seeks leave to make an the Human Rights Clinic. introduction. I, myself, was previously on the board of the Justice Edu- cation Society, which is an example of an organization, one Leave granted. of these not-for-proft organizations, that wants to promote a better understanding of our judicial system through public Introductions by Members education — certainly, tours and schoolhouse visits by schools to our court system and, like members of our gallery Hon. C. Trevena: I appreciate that. As we speak, there is a today, here to this Legislative Assembly. school group coming in from the Campbell River Christian Te key here is that we need to ensure that what has Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6365 been enhanced are the kinds of resources to promote greater A. Weaver: I rise to take my place in the second reading access to our justice system. Certainly, as we look forward debate on Bill 50, Human Rights Code Amendment Act, to further discussion on other matters with the government, 2018. Tis bill re-establishes the British Columbia Human we’ll want to continue to ensure that in protecting and stand- Rights Commission afer it was disbanded by the B.C. Liber- ing for human rights in the province of British Columbia, we als in 2002. continue to ensure that there are good supports for access to Tis is yet another example of what happens when we justice in our province. have pendulum swings in government. When we move from [2:55 p.m.] one ideology to another, we fnd…. I must also say that under the previous government…. In section 37 of the human rights code, there is the responsib- Deputy Speaker: Member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head, ility and ability of the tribunal to continue to “take steps…to I’m going to ask your indulgence. Would you be so kind as ameliorate the efects of the discriminatory practice” and to to adjourn the debate so the committee can report out and order the adoption or implementation of “an employment then return to debate? equity program or other special program to ameliorate the conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups” if there’s A. Weaver: Well, of course. I would love to move adjourn- been evidence that has been lodged at the tribunal hearing ment of this debate. Of course, I do reserve my right to con- that there is a person, which could be a corporate or other tinue the debate in just a few moments. organization, “engaged in a pattern or practice that contra- venes this Code.” Deputy Speaker: I appreciate that very much. Tat section of the code continues and is not being amended by this bill. Tat’s just another avenue through A. Weaver moved adjournment of debate. which systemic discrimination in our province has been addressed by our Human Rights Tribunal over the last Motion approved. many years. Having said that, I just want to comment that when we Report and Tird Reading of Bills get to the Bill 50 stage, there will be a number of areas that we would like to seek clarity on. One will be looking at the BILL 41 — ADVANCED EDUCATION broad degree of latitude provided to the commission, spe- STATUTE REPEAL ACT cifcally the inquiry powers of the commissioner, himself or herself. Currently, in this country, in Canada, Ontario is the Bill 41, Advanced Education Statute Repeal Act, reported only province where a human rights commissioner has been complete without amendment, read a third time and given that sort of power. Not even under the federal govern- passed. ment Human Rights Commission is that power provided. [3:00 p.m.] As we look at Bill 50, we’ll want to have that discussion about the nature of that power and the purpose. We’ll also Hon. D. Eby: I call Bill 46, the South Coast British want to have further discussion about the ability of the com- Columbia Transportation Authority Amendment Act, (No. missioner, as proposed under Bill 50, to intervene in certain 2), 2018, in Committee A; in this chamber, continued second proceedings, as well as the determination, which, again, has reading on the B.C. Human Rights Code Amendment Act. been there, under the tribunal’s authority, for special pro- grams. As I mentioned earlier, many of these special pro- Second Reading of Bills grams are designed to ameliorate the conditions of any dis- advantage to individuals or groups from a systemic point of BILL 50 — HUMAN RIGHTS CODE view. We’ll also want to look at the composition of the advis- AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 ory council and look at how that will be determined by the (continued) commissioner. I’m sure, as every British Columbian would recognize, A. Weaver: I rise to take my place in this second reading that…. We have a role to ensure that our human rights are debate on Bill 50, Human Rights Code Amendment Act. As protected in this province and preserved. As we look at the I’ve mentioned, this bill re-establishes the British Columbia initiatives of the previous government, which continue to Human Rights Commission, afer it was disbanded by the build on human rights legislation in the history of this B.C. Liberals in 2002. It does this by amending the human province…. Tis province has been a leader in respect of rights code to establish an independent Human Rights Com- ensuring and promoting human rights, and Bill 50 will be mission ofce. another initiative to further ourselves as a province down As I mentioned, this is another example of pendulum that road. swings that have plagued our frst-past-the-post system here I look forward to supporting this bill on second reading in the province of British Columbia. When governments and in the committee stage to follow. come in, we see broad policy sweeps, very costly at times — 6366 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 as, for example, the labour code and others — where policies commissioner will work on proactively, as well, to explore come in and are taken back as governments switch with the systemic issues of disability and non-accommodation. diferent ideologies. To give a bit of history on this, we’ve gone back and I’m looking forward to these kinds of changes, more dra- forth in B.C., as I mentioned, on having a human rights conian pendulum swings, no longer really taking place here commissioner and commission. We had one, for example, in British Columbia with a successful referendum on pro- that the Socred government eliminated in 1983. Ten we portional representation. One of the things we know is that didn’t have one, and then the B.C. NDP government of the with policies like this, you don’t establish something, then 1990s brought it back in, and the B.C. Liberals, in 2002, tear it down and then re-establish it and tear it down. Tat brought it out. tends to get mitigated, and we wouldn’t have to be debating [3:05 p.m.] this today were we to have a government that was required Now it’s coming back in again — a beautiful example of to listen to broader elements of our society than, perhaps, the pendulum swing that has mired B.C. politics for such was required in 2002, when there were but two NDP MLAs a long time, where we’ve had dynasties of domination by sitting in opposition and every other MLA was a member a single party which, afer many years, forgets to actually of the B.C. Liberal Party, despite just getting slightly over 50 remind itself that it is there to represent the people and not percent of the vote. its vested interests or its donors. Hopefully, this is the last Te new ofce is going to be similar to other independent time that the pendulum will swing and it will settle in the ofces like, for example, the Representative for Children and middle, along the lines of what every other province in our Youth. Obviously, I’m delighted that this is being introduced country has — a human rights commission that not only into this House. Both the B.C. NDP and the B.C. Greens reacts to human rights issues that are brought to it but is campaigned on bringing back a human rights commission proactive in terms of dealing with systemic issues of human to actually look at human rights issues proactively instead of rights contraventions in our province. just reactively, as is done now. We like to think that there are none, but we all know cases Tis bill is fnally bringing B.C. in line with other jurisdic- where there are. In 2002 — giving some more history here — tions in the country. We are the only province that has not the human rights commission was eliminated, for political had a human rights commission these past 16 years. It’s yet reasons, I would argue. It was forced to cut its budget, to cut another noteworthy aspect of British Columbia that we are its staf. To add insult to injury, the commissioner and the not so proud of: not having a human rights commission for acting chief commissioner were fred in the morning before the last 16 years. Te new bill and the new provisions in the legislation to get rid of the commission was introduced — bill that will be enacted will not take us back to the pre-2002 fred in the morning before the legislation was introduced to model but will instead set up a similar model to what exists eliminate the commission. presently in Ontario. In that respect, it’s less of a pendulum It was somewhat spiteful, if you ask me, and not a type swing than we might otherwise have expected. of signal, really, that we should be sending the province of Te bill follows the 25 recommendations that were out- British Columbia. Tis decision was widely condemned by lined in the report brought forward by the Parliamentary human rights groups across the province. One of the only Secretary for Sport and Multiculturalism. Tis report was MLAs that raised the voices of the human rights groups that based on eight weeks of public consultation on this subject. were afronted by the B.C. Liberals’ removing this commis- Of course, as well, the UN Paris principles had been used as sion was Jenny Kwan, one of but two NDP MLAs serving in a guide for drafing of this bill. the B.C. Legislature in 2002. Tis bill is needed for a number of reasons. It’s needed She said that by abolishing the commission, B.C. would to fght systemic injustices across our province, to protect fail to meet the criteria of the Paris principles, which require against patterns of discrimination proactively and to be able that human rights agencies have independence guaranteed to champion education campaigns on human rights and by statute or constitution, autonomy from government, inequality across the province, particularly in areas where diverse membership, a broad mandate based on universal there are systemic issues. It’s important to allow the commis- human rights standards, adequate powers of investigation sioner the power to create guidelines in education programs and sufcient resources.” for other institutions in our province to use as well. Tis Government shut down the previous human rights com- bill is, therefore, putting back the Human Rights Tribunal mission to save $3.1 million, but at what cost? At what cost into the rightful place as the arbitrator of specifc complaints to broader society did this saving of $3.1 million lead? Per- regarding human rights contraventions. haps the government knew that further cuts were coming Tere are many things in British Columbia afecting Brit- when it did it. It was consistent with the government of the ish Columbians that that need an ofce like this with a man- day, in essence, disadvantaging those who were already dis- date like this to look into. Te number one issue referred to advantaged and not raising rates — disability rates, welfare the current Human Rights Tribunal is disability non-accom- rates, housing assistance rates — for a decade. It was consist- modation. I would anticipate that this is an area that the new ent with the kind of mean-spirited approach to government that prevailed at that time. Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6367

B.C. has not had a body that could look at systemic pat- society; on the rights for everyone in British Columbia, all terns of discrimination and recommend changes for almost citizens, to have a right to opportunity. two decades. Tat, of course, is all changing now with this I think that generally, as Canadians, we have come to legislation. Te systemic discrimination facing Indigenous know the protection of human rights as a part of our identity communities, women, people of colour, LGBTQ+ individu- as Canadians. Sometimes, though, even here situations arise als, people with disabilities is real, severe and completely that need to be brought to light where those rights are not unacceptable. Te uphill battle faced by British Columbians being understood or respected. Sometimes intervention is, who are at the intersection of more than one of these com- unfortunately, required. munities is even steeper. I appreciate that this bill speaks to the importance of the Government had a hand in creating these discriminatory education of the public on both sides of the human rights systems, so we need to dismantle them and rebuild a more equation. Te rights themselves matter, and our understand- fair and just province. Tis is what Bill 50, Human Rights ing of those as citizens but also as employers, service pro- Code Amendment Act, takes us on a journey and pathway viders, legislators, but also the understanding of how those towards creating. I and my colleagues in the B.C. Green are interpreted and what constitutes a violation, what consti- caucus are very supportive of this legislation and are tutes a need to raise awareness or to raise an issue for res- delighted with the changes proposed — long overdue, long olution. Tat education is important, and the role of this called for. I thank government for introducing them, and commission in that education of the public is important. I’m we’re proud to stand in support at second reading. pleased to see that it’s recognized. Many years ago now, a close friend of mine fnished her S. Cadieux: I am honoured to take my place in the debate university education and applied for a job as a teacher, a today on Bill 50. Just before I get started on my own remarks pretty noble profession. She was very well trained and very related directly to the human rights tribunal, I will just ref- competent, but she was denied a job. She was denied a job erence some of the remarks made by the member for Oak not because she was unqualifed or incapable or even that Bay–Gordon Head, preceding me, in his comments, which she didn’t interview well. She was denied because she used a focused much less on the need or purpose of this act or sup- wheelchair. port for it and much more on partisan attacks of things that [3:15 p.m.] happened long before I ever came to sit in this place. She was going to need to be available, as a teacher on call, [3:10 p.m.] to go to any school, any classroom. Unfortunately, because I wonder if the member would feel the same way or, of a lack of access, that wouldn’t be possible. It wouldn’t be frankly, if members of his future party will feel the same way because she wasn’t willing; it would be because she was phys- when they are brought to remember the things that he has ically prevented from attending. Unfortunately, at that time, said in this House, when they are forced to look back in time the employer didn’t understand their duty, didn’t understand to a time when the leader of their party sold out their prin- that it was her right to teach and that an impediment to her ciples in pursuit of proportional representation. work environment wasn’t her problem. Te reality is that things happen over time for all sorts of She took that case forward to the Human Rights Commis- reasons that may or may not be clearly articulated in this sion or Tribunal — I’m honestly not sure at which point in House through partisan debate and that the history books time this was exactly — and she won. Since that time, she has will choose to remember in one way or in another. But the been teaching a kindergarten class in Vancouver, and she is reality is that today I’m very proud to be here as a member beloved. She shouldn’t have had to raise that issue, but the of this Legislature, elected by the people of my constituency, reality was that she did. and here to speak in support of Bill 50. As I had mentioned, I personally haven’t ever felt a need to I personally have never felt discriminated against in a way raise an issue as far as a tribunal or a commission. But I cer- so egregious that would require me to seek out the services tainly, as a user of a mobility device, have found many occa- of a human rights commission, and I feel very fortunate for sions where people, where businesses, where the built envir- that. We see regularly on the news, and I think more regu- onment have excluded me. It’s not right, and we keep fght- larly on the news, examples of human rights violations from ing for change in that regard. other countries around the world that none of us can stom- It is my belief that most of the time, it’s a lack of under- ach, can understand. Tankfully, for the most part, we can standing that is the cause of that, and quite ofen it doesn’t say those things don’t happen here. take much more than a good old-fashioned conversation to I’m proud to be a member of this party. I’m proud that on move things ahead. But sometimes it does, and that’s the the weekend, our leader made very specifc mention, in his purpose, I think, of this commission. Tat’s why I’m in sup- frst remarks as leader to our convention and our members, port of the bill. Tank you very much for my time today. of his personal — and therefore, frankly, now our party’s — comments on the rights and equality for women; on the Hon. J. Sims: It’s my pleasure today to stand up in here rights of women in the workplace; on the rights of women and speak in support of this legislation that reinstitutes the everywhere to feel safe, not just in their workplace but in our Human Rights Commission. 6368 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

First, before I get going, I do want to acknowledge and to address instances of systemic abuse not addressed by indi- thank my colleague the Attorney General and also the viduals alone. member for Delta North, who did an incredible job of When I think of the isms that exist and the kind of per- going out and listening to British Columbians in every secutions that our LGBTQ community has faced, the levels corner of the province. Tey heard from advocates, heard of racism that diferent communities have faced over the last from individuals who absolutely wanted to see the Human number of years…. We always think: “Well, this is now 2018. Rights Commission reinstated. I also want to thank my Surely we’ve fnished with issues like racism. Surely we’ve fn- other colleague from Surrey for her words of support for ished with issues like sexism.”But as we know, isms don’t just this piece of legislation. go away, and they have a way of resurfacing. I can still remember today, as if it was yesterday, when in In light of what we’re seeing to the south of us, the fear 2002 the Human Rights Commission was disbanded. I can of politics in other parts of the country as well, I am so remember many things from that year and the year before delighted that in British Columbia, we are taking a pro- that, but I can remember how impacted people were that gressive step. Tat progressive step is to reinstate the human something as fundamental to rights and democracy as a rights commission and to focus on education, on raising human rights commissioner — that that position could just awareness. disappear. People just were shell-shocked, I would say, and Racism and other isms are not going to go away simply ofen speechless. because we stop talking about them. Pedagogy of oppression We know there were lots of other things happening at that has been around for a long time. I ofen think that I would time, like teachers having their collective agreements rolled like to see it as part of the core curriculum. Trough educa- back, students losing their learning conditions — the protec- tion and in relation to the work that’s going to be done by the tions they had — and students with special needs losing the new human rights commissioner, we can begin to address protection they had for supports. Tat was something else some of these isms. that was going on, as well as other contracts being ripped, so When I visit schools in my riding, they tell me about the to speak. kinds of challenges they face. Tey tell me the name-calling Tis particular action, to take away the Human Rights that goes on. It doesn’t mean that this is happening all over. I Commission at the very time that the government was car- would say that we’ve made a lot of progress. But at the same rying out such distasteful and damaging pieces of legislation time, we still have a lot more work to do in our multicultur- that were impacting so many people, whether it was in the al and diverse communities to teach each other about difer- health care sector or education…. We’ve got to remember ent cultures, about diferent practices, and also to talk about that all of this impacts every British Columbian, that at that issues as a human right. very time when the Human Rights Commission, the ofce, In the 21st century — as we’re in 2018 — people from was needed, it was disbanded. So I’m really, really glad to see diverse communities don’t just want to be tolerated. Today, that it’s come back. it is about celebration. It is about acceptance. Tat’s what the [3:20 p.m.] human rights commission will get a chance to focus on when I’m also pleased that it’s come back in a slightly new itera- we do education throughout. We’re not talking about, “Oh tion. Te tribunal is still going to stay around. It’s still going yeah, let’s just put up with this group” or: “Let’s just deny that to listen to individual complaints. Nothing is changing with group their rights, and they won’t complain.” It is about each that. But the new commissioner will not be screening or and every one of us in British Columbia taking responsibil- investigating individual human rights complaints; instead, ity to make sure that human rights are protected. they will be promoting and protecting human rights with a [3:25 p.m.] focus on education about human rights. Somebody told me a long time ago that when somebody Being a teacher and, Madame Speaker, as you’re a teacher raises a hand against you or gets abusive towards you, it’s as well, we know — I’m sure everybody in this House does very easy to raise your arms to defend yourself. But to me, a — the value of education if we’re going to bring about sys- sign of a truly progressive society is where we — as individu- temic change. When we talk about democracy and the rights als, as citizens, as a government — raise our hands together of individuals in our very diverse community and the right to make sure everybody’s human rights are protected. And to protect those, we have a lot of education to do about that that is what we can get to when we have a human rights com- in our schools, in our communities, in our workplaces and, I mission whose focus is on education. would say, all over British Columbia. Tere will still be the tribunal to deal with individual Te model we’re using here is going to be very similar cases and complaints. But what we’re dealing with in our to the Ontario model. As I said earlier, I am so delighted communities and across society are systemic issues. If that as a society…. Our government has recognized that we’re going to address those systemic issues, that is going governments play a critical role in education, specifcally in to require education. teaching people about their rights, about human rights, to As I said earlier, I was so pleased to see that my colleague ensure that we prevent discrimination from happening and across the way from Surrey South also supports the reinsti- tution, the reinstatement of the human rights commission. Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6369

I’m hoping that every member on the other side of the House Te idea of a tribunal, when you feel your rights have been will be supporting this and will have realized that when it infringed on, is a scary thing. I’m glad her friend got justice. was taken away in 2002, it damaged our social fabric. It made Te reason why we need a commission is that we don’t some people feel less. want other people to go through that. So the power of a com- mission is to address systematic discrimination so that it’s [R. Chouhan in the chair.] not just the individual that gets remedied. It’s how we can better ourselves as a society. But I want to thank her for shar- It took away an avenue of education that needs to occur ing her story. and will occur, once we have the new commission in place. [3:30 p.m.] Now, I’m not saying that just because we have a human I want to thank the member for Surrey-Panorama. Obvi- rights commission, all the isms are going to disappear ously, she’s been a longtime advocate for human rights. She overnight, whether it’s racism, sexism, persecution because spoke quite passionately about that, and I want to thank her. of gender or sexual orientation. No, that is not what’s going And I want to thank you, hon. Speaker. I know you’ve to happen overnight. been fghting the fght for many years, and this is a fle that’s What’s going to happen is we’re going to have a focused close to your heart. I want to thank you for your years of ser- education to make sure that we address those systemic vice to the community, for never wavering on this important issues, that we celebrate our diversity and we celebrate our topic of human rights and for having it front and centre in diferences and those things we share in common, because your mind in every decision you make. So I want to thank sometimes it’s those diferences that make us unique. you for all your work, hon. Speaker. We want to make sure that every single child — whether I think it’s important to start from the beginning. I note they’re born here, whether they’ve come from another coun- there were some comments about the commission being try, whether they are culturally from a diverse community, gone. We can talk about the politics of that. People have whether they are ethnically diferent from the mainstream already done that, so I won’t go there. But I do want to — feels that, in British Columbia, they are home, they are touch on something important, which is something that I included, and they know that their rights are going to be heard from people, especially from the First Nations educa- addressed by the commission. tion council. Tey reminded me that the very last thing that Once again, I want to fnish of by thanking and congrat- the Human Rights Commission was working on in 2001, ulating our Attorney General and my colleague from Delta before they were disbanded, was…. Tey were going to do a North for having the courage and commitment to bring this report on educational outcomes and systematic racism with- forward at this time. Tey didn’t say: “Well, let’s just leave it. in our education system. We’ll do it later.” When the government came in at the time, someone from Tey did it. Tey did the groundwork. I’m so proud to be the government side said to them: “We’re going to start part of a government that recognizes that human rights are winding your work down, and we don’t want you to do that.” concerns for each and every one of us. Te commission said: “We’re independent. We’re going to do this.” Te conversation got heated. Tey came back and said: R. Kahlon: It’s my privilege and honour to stand and “How much are you going to spend on it?” Te budget, I speak in favour of this piece of legislation. I wanted to do a think, was $180,000. Tey got their budget cut by $180,000. couple thank-yous before I open up my remarks. Tat was the frst step. Te second step was to get rid of I would like to, obviously, thank the Premier and the the commission. So it wasn’t just a clean cut overnight. It was Attorney General for not only prioritizing this and making sending a strong message that this important social audit of sure the work started getting on right in the beginning, but our society was no longer required. I want to make sure that also, I want to acknowledge them and thank them for giving is on the record because it’s an important piece of history for me the privilege and the honour of consulting with British us to recognize — that that is what happened when this com- Columbians on what it is that they feel is needed in the mission was disbanded. human rights commission, as well as giving me the oppor- I want to talk briefy about what I heard through this pro- tunity to hear from so many people. cess. It was a moving process. We had various engagements. As a new MLA, it was a phenomenal experience to be I think the part that I enjoyed the most from it was the very sent out to communities that you don’t represent and hear beginning, when we had a discussion about: how is it that from people who, quite frankly, aren’t heard from very ofen. we’re going to talk to people? How is it that we’re going to Many people were shocked to see me show up. So I want to listen to people? Te most fascinating piece for me, as a new thank them for that opportunity. MLA, was the conversation about First Nations and Indigen- I want to thank the member for Surrey South for her ous communities. How is it that we’re going to engage them remarks. I have got a great deal of respect for her, and I know on this topic? she meant every word she said. And you know, hearing the Trough my little bit of learning, I wanted to take a dif- story of her friend who had to go to the tribunal — it’s a ferent approach. It was a little unorthodox, but we gathered difcult process to go to. Nobody wants to go to a tribunal. a group of leaders and folks together who were passionate 6370 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 about this topic. We went to them and said: “How would you how difcult of a process that was. Seeing this rainbow cross- like this commission to look?” We didn’t take any ideas to walk in her community and what that symbolized to her — them. We didn’t take any frames of what it should look like. it didn’t mean everything was going to be okay, but it was a We just said: “Listen. We want to bring back the commission. symbol of hope. What is it that you would like to do?” She sent me this nice letter, written out. I have it in my It was a diferent way of having that conversation, which ofce still. It’s quite moving. She spoke about human rights really blew my mind. One of the frst things that jumped out and what it meant. Here’s someone who’s in grade 9 who at me…. Tis woman said to me: “I’m really grateful that knows more about human rights and the fght for human you’re having these conversations. I’m really grateful that rights and why it matters than most adults. you come to this with an empty cup and that you’ve come to It stuck with me, because it gives you hope for the future us with an open book on how we’re going to get at this.” She that this next generation…. We think that they’re not said: “Are you talking about human rights in your context, or engaged. We think they don’t care about politics. Tat’s not are you talking to us about human rights in our Indigenous true, and I saw that through this process. and First Nations context?” I saw university students sending me full graph sheets She went on to talk about how in communities they had that they used when they went to their professor and said: human rights — those rights were passed through, through “We heard this commission was happening. We want to stories and through oral traditions — and how, over time, be part of it. So how can we do that?” Te professor from over colonization, that history was taken away, and those Capilano University came together and had a whole class laws were taken away. She spoke about how important it was facilitation about human rights and what it is that they for them to capture their oral history, keep those lessons in would like to see in the Human Rights Commission. Tose place and then re-enact those laws. things jumped out at me. I was so grateful near the end of this process. I think it I had this lawyer. She’s in a wheelchair. She spoke to me was two months afer I had concluded that we announced about how she’d been fghting for human rights her whole $50 million towards the revitalization of language, to capture life — obviously, lived challenges throughout her entire life language so that we can keep those important stories and — and felt, obviously, privileged, because she was a lawyer. history and so that we can put together some of these laws in She knew that her condition was better than many others. these communities. Or the community can do that. She broke down in tears when she said that the year We also saw the opening of the frst Indigenous law pro- before I had met her, she was representing a client and gram at UVic — again, with all this work, quite timely. I was couldn’t get into the courtroom to see her client. So it was quite grateful to see that. a reminder for her that there’s discrimination within our One of the elders in my third meeting, the second one he legal system, within our society, within the way our social was attending, said: “Tis process…. I’m grateful that you’ve infrastructure is built. Her words really stuck with me. If come. You’ve come to listen.” He gave me great advice. He she is watching, I wanted to say: “I heard you, and your said his uncle had told him many, many years ago simple words are in the report.” advice. He said: “Listen, learn and then lead, in that order.” I want to briefy touch on some of the recommendations Tat was his advice to me in this process. He said, “When that I made to the Attorney General. Again, I’m grateful that you put this report together and you give it to the Attorney,” the Attorney General took almost essentially word for word as he said it: “Make sure that you follow that advice. Listen, from my report into this legislation. I want to, again, say learn and then lead.” to him that I’m quite grateful for him to do that, for giving [3:35 p.m.] me the opportunity to go out and hear from people, putting I’m grateful that we took that advice. His words are very those words on paper, and then him actually taking that and early on in the report. For those members or those people enacting it. watching who haven’t had a chance to read the report, I I remember one of the people asking me: “Is this going to really recommend they do. Te voices of people are directly be one of these reports that collects dust in government?” I in there. We didn’t flter people’s comments. Te comments, looked her in the face, and I said, “I don’t think so,” because sometimes, are hard to hear, but we didn’t flter them. We let this is the way that government sometimes works. She said: them have their voice, and we made sure that the report was “Well, that was with a lot of confdence.” We had a good about their voice. chuckle about it. I said: “No, no. I’m pretty confdent that One of the stories…. Tere are so many that jump out at what we recommend is going to go through.” Ten they me, but there were two stories that jump out at me in partic- unloaded their ideas. ular. I got a letter in the mail from a young woman who is a Some of those things that they shared with me were student. I’m not going to say which community, but she’s a around access to justice. We heard from a lot of new immig- student. rant groups, groups that provide supports to new immig- She talked about how she was in grade 9 and how she felt rants especially. Tey shared stories about how, especially, when a rainbow crosswalk had come to her community and new immigrants were most vulnerable to human rights talked about how she hadn’t come out to her parents yet and violations and the fear they to go to this tribunal to be heard. Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6371

Tribunal means many things in diferent countries to difer- was too long. So what was critical is having an independ- ent people. So this fear of going to this tribunal ofen made ent body so that it would be less politics. It would be toned them not want to go forward. down. It would still be a social audit of society, still have a What I also heard from them was that even when they critical voice but not be at the pulling of strings of govern- wanted to get them legal aid, even when they wanted to get ment ofcials. them supports, it was difcult to do so, because they couldn’t Again, I think that’s something for all of us in this House provide it in-house. Tey had a respect and a comfort level to be proud of. We are leading the way. We’re leading the way built with this person. in Canada. We’re leading the way in North America on this [3:40 p.m.] critical topic. When they went to pass them on to someone else, they Tree other pieces of information that I want to raise. found that those people would never go to those appoint- Tese were just recommendations. I knew I wouldn’t be in ments, because they didn’t trust. Tey were afraid. A lot of a position to tell the commissioner what to do. But what we these folks were afraid of police because of where they’ve tried to do was we tried to lay out three key issues that I come from. So for them to go to another entity to get those heard over and over again for the commission to address. supports was quite the scary thing. Tey basically said: “We First was around First Nations. In order for the new com- have so many of these cases, but we can’t take them any- mission to be fully functional and to fulfl its mandate, where, because when we take them, we lose them.” they’re going to spend time to build the relationships and We heard the same thing in the friendship centres. A lot of establish relationships with Indigenous and First Nations diferent groups that have friendship centres came and said: communities throughout the province. Tat was my frst “We have so many people that have complaints, but when we recommendation. take them outside of the friendship centre to get them sup- Te second was around gender and IDs. I know the Min- port, they don’t show up.” I think we are fortunate because ister of Health has just made some moves. Now there is abil- the people that we have with the Human Rights Clinic do ity for an X on health records. But they also raise concerns. a fantastic job. Man, were they passionate about advancing Ten I heard concerns around the concept of an X on a pass- human rights. If they’re watching, I want to say thank you. port and what that means for someone who travels to anoth- Tank you for the work you do. er country. When they travel to another country and they Tey also acknowledge they have challenges. Tey’re see an X on their passport, how vulnerable that might make based in Vancouver, and they have a lot of people coming them feel. Again, that’s something I recommended for the from Metro Vancouver to access their services. Tey’re commission. pretty close to capacity. Once you leave Metro Vancouver, Ten the last one was a Canadian experience. Too many the numbers start dropping of. Once you go into the Interi- new immigrants are coming to this country as doctors, or, into Prince George and Kelowna, the numbers drastically engineers and lawyers and are not able to fulfl their dreams drop of. So that was something I heard, especially when I of coming to Canada and living a prosperous life because all was travelling in Prince George and Kelowna. I heard from their education — all that stuf that we were inviting them to folks saying…. bring to our country to add to our strength of our country I remember this gentleman saying: “When you’re just try- — they were not able to use it. Too ofen, they would go to ing to survive, human rights and fghting for your rights is the doors, apply for a place at the table, and they would hear: the furthest from your mind.” Tey talked about poverty. “Well, I’m sorry. You don’t have Canadian experience.” Tey talked about deep poverty. Tey talked about their [3:45 p.m.] challenges to get justice. Again, I heard you. Tat’s also in the Tis idea of Canadian experience became a roadblock for report as comments from what people heard. It wasn’t part too many people. It’s a story you hear over and over again. of my mandate, but I put it in there anyways as feedback for Again, I don’t have the solution. But I did recommend that us in government. the new commissioner consider looking at this and consider Four important recommendations I made. Obviously, the potential solutions for us. most important part of this report, and the biggest piece for Te last piece I’ll touch on — I know that others might me, is that this commission is going to be independent. We want to speak to this — is something important that I heard heard that from Indigenous communities and First Nations from the business community around why they felt this was leaders. Tey were quite clear. Tis has got to be completely important as well. We talk about education and how critical independent of government. In order for us to feel comfort- education is to the public. But we heard, too ofen, from able to get…. We know that this body will address our issues. small business and medium-sized businesses: “We want to It needs to be completely independent of government. do the right thing. We want to address human rights con- People were tired of this back and forth. Te NDP came cerns.” But it’s hard for a small business to aford legal opin- in, and they brought it in. Te Socreds got rid of it. Ten ions and getting together all the proper protocols to address the NDP comes back in. Tey bring the commission back. these things. B.C. Liberals came in. Tey got rid of it. Tey were tired I heard clearly from them, as well, that they want a place of this. You know, 16 years of not having that service there at the table with this new Human Rights Commission, and 6372 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 they want to see tools and educational opportunities. Tey Coleman Wat Bernier want to see partnerships between businesses, non-profts Tornthwaite Paton Barnett and government to build these tools so that they become Yap Martin Davies available for the business community, as well, so they don’t Kyllo Sullivan Isaacs have to re-create them, and it becomes accessible and easy Morris Stilwell Ross for them to make their work environments more inclusive Oakes Johal Redies and safe. Rustad Milobar Sturdy I wasn’t on the speaking order, but I felt passionately to Shypitka Hunt Troness speak to this. I’ll just end with a big thank-you to the Attor- Tegart Stewart Sultan ney General, a big thank-you to the Premier. It was a special Gibson Reid Letnick day for this province, for us to have this commission back. Tomson Foster It’s going to be truly independent. It will be leading North America. It’ll lead in education. My hope is that Hon. M. Farnworth: In this chamber, I call continued they will be tough, not only on us and on the non-proft second reading debate on Bill 50, and in Committee A, I call community, but also on the private sector to make sure committee stage on Bill 48, the temporary foreign workers that this province continues to be the best place to live and legislation. raise a family. With that, I’ll take my seat, and I’m proud to support this legislation. [R. Chouhan in the chair.]

Hon. D. Eby moved adjournment of debate. N. Simons: Mr. Speaker, I just want to welcome a couple of guests into the Legislature today before we reconvene. Motion approved. [3:50 p.m. - 3:55 p.m.] Leave granted.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Introductions by Members

Report and Tird Reading of Bills N. Simons: I’d like to introduce my constituency assist- ants, who are skipping out from their convention meetings BILL 46 — SOUTH COAST BRITISH and who have come to the House today. Rob Hill and COLUMBIA TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY Michelle Morton are my constituency assistants for the AMENDMENT ACT (No. 2), 2018 upper and lower Sunshine Coast respectively. I want to also add that Rob and his wife, Delyth, have wel- Bill 46, South Coast British Columbia Transportation comed their third child, Nia, to join Holden and Teo — a Authority Amendment Act (No. 2), 2018, reported lovely family — and returned to Powell River. complete without amendment, read a third time and passed I would like the House to please make them both wel- on the following division: come. YEAS — 42 Second Reading of Bills Chouhan Kahlon Brar Heyman Donaldson Mungall BILL 50 — HUMAN RIGHTS CODE Bains Beare Chen AMENDMENT ACT, 2018 Popham Trevena Sims (continued) Chow Kang Simons D’Eith Routley Ma Hon. J. Darcy: I’m very honoured to stand in my place Elmore Dean Routledge and speak to this bill regarding the reinstating of the human Singh Leonard Darcy rights commission. I want to begin by acknowledging my Simpson Robinson Farnworth colleague the Attorney General and my colleague from Delta Horgan James Eby North, who is Parliamentary Secretary for Multiculturalism, Dix Ralston Mark for their leadership in bringing this forward. Fleming Conroy Fraser I’ve been sitting here in the House for the last hour and a Chandra Herbert Rice Furstenau half on House duty, listening to other people who have risen Weaver Olsen Glumac to speak on this issue before me. Listening to members on both sides of the House led me to rise to my feet and take NAYS — 38 my place in this discussion. Tis is a day in the Legislative Cadieux Bond Polak Assembly of British Columbia that I think brings out the best Wilkinson Lee Stone Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6373 in all of us. It shows some of those issues that today we stand rights commission, focusing on education and on systemic together and speak with one voice on. discrimination in the province of British Columbia. It has been very moving sitting here listening to members We know that systemic discrimination afects so many on the government side of the House but also listening to the groups in our society. We know that Indigenous people still member for Surrey South and the member for Vancouver- face systemic discrimination in our legal system, as was Langara speaking about their own personal experiences and referred to already. We know that they experience it in hous- about their own family experiences. I think what this debate ing. We know that they also experience it ofen in our health does is really unite us in our humanity that we want a bet- care system and in our mental health system. I’ve heard ter province, we want a better country, and we want a better those stories — individual stories, over and over again — world, where the human rights of all citizens are recognized about stereotyping of Indigenous people and the treatment and are respected. that means they sometimes receive. [4:00 p.m.] We have a long way to go in order to ensure that all of I think what is so important about the human rights com- our programs and services are culturally safe and culturally mission being reinstated is its focus on systemic discrimina- appropriate. But having a human rights commission rein- tion and on education. We do have mechanisms, sometimes forces the need for us to take up that challenge in every imperfect, for dealing with individual acts of discrimination. single aspect of the work of our government and in every But it is so important, and we must never forget how preval- single aspect of life in civil society. ent in our society, despite our best eforts, issues of systemic We know, and I’ve certainly heard these stories over and discrimination and racism continue to be. over again in my work and my engagement and consultation We can refect back on the day that we made an an- around the issue of mental health and substance use…. We nouncement in the Hall of Honour about the reinstatement have one in fve British Columbians who is living with men- of the human rights commission, and the speakers who were tal health issues today. One in four British Columbians will gathered there. One of those speakers talked about the deal with a substance use issue in their lifetime. shootings in a synagogue in Pittsburgh, the most violent act We know that people living with mental health and addic- of anti-Semitism in American history. It reminds us that tions experience discrimination in the workplace. Tey anti-Semitism is alive and well in our society, not just south experience discrimination in housing. Tey experience dis- of the border, but on this side of the border as well. crimination in many aspects of their lives because they are I remember very well a year ago January in New West- people struggling with a disability. Tey are people strug- minster, a welcoming community that embraces diversity gling with a chronic health condition, that being a mental ill- and has welcomed people from all around the world. I woke ness or an addiction. up on a Sunday morning to fnd out that the night before, [4:05 p.m.] on a United Church in my community, anti-Semitic, anti- We have a lot of work to do in so many domains. I also Muslim posters, pro-Nazi posters had been posted — on a heard, in the engagement that our ministry did in develop- local church. I’m very, very proud that our community ral- ing a mental health and addiction strategy…. We met with lied together. Within four days, in the name of New West members of the LGBTQ community, and they spoke to us United, we gathered on the steps of city hall, and we spoke with great passion and with great anger and frustration, with one voice to say: “No, not in my backyard. We stand frankly, about the discrimination that they still experience united. We stand together to celebrate diversity. We stand throughout our society, including in our health care sys- together in unity, in democracy and in welcoming people to tem. Tat was most pronounced for members of the trans our community.” community. Tat was when we were dealing with the worst afer- We can feel proud of the progress that we’ve made as a math of the refugee crisis in Syria. Just a few days afer province and as a Legislature in being more representative that, we had a shooting in a mosque in Quebec City, where — and as a society. But we also know there is a tremendous, several worshippers were shot dead. Why? It’s because of tremendous amount of work to do. Tis human rights com- their faith, for the same reason that people were shot in a mission is a very, very important step forward, because it will synagogue in Pittsburgh. be addressing systemic discrimination and addressing edu- My colleague the member for Coquitlam-Maillardville cation of the public. just shared with me that in her community this past week- We want to ensure that wherever people live in our prov- end, there were Nazi symbols that appeared outside schools. ince and wherever they work and whatever it is they do, they In this House, we are speaking today as one, and I think feel that it is a safe community and a safe province. As I listen that’s very important. We haven’t always spoken as one on to the debate and as I heard other people share their fam- this issue. I wish that there were more people who actually ily’s stories, I am reminded of what brought my family to this could observe what was happening today in this House country in the 1950s. because this is, I believe, one of our fner moments as a My father was a Jew, a Russian Jew who lived in France for Legislature, as we support the reintroduction of a human 25 years, fought in the French Army. He managed to keep his Jewishness a secret while he was a prisoner of war but sub- 6374 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

sequently lost several family members in the Holocaust. He My constituency of Vancouver–West End has certainly brought his young family to this country in order that they been one of the hotbeds, the capitals — whatever you want to would be safe. He was worried there might be another war, call it — leading voices, leading communities in the fght for another outbreak of anti-Semitism in Europe. human rights. Of course, the LGBT civil rights movement He brought our young family to Canada, and he kept his largely found a centre and a home there, on Davie Street, Jewishness a secret, including from his own family, until a with some of the early pride parades and unity parades and few years before he died, when he began, with his faulty activism happening in my community. memory at that time, to share his history with us. So it was appropriate that when our government decided We want to ensure that our country is safe in every respect to publicly launch that we were going to do this, that we did for people who have lived here for generations and who it in my community. I just want to say how much it meant to practise many diferent faiths or for people who come here members of my neighbourhood that we did it in Deva Plaza. from many diferent countries and who may speak diferent Jim Deva, as many will remember, was a strong, strong languages and who come from many diferent backgrounds. voice for human rights, for equality, not just for gay men Today, with the introduction of this bill, and when we pass but for LGBT people writ large — two-spirit people, queer this bill — and it appears that it will be unanimous in this people, non-binary people, transgender people. He worked Legislature — it will be us saying together and speaking with very hard to bring a broader voice against censorship and for one voice as the Legislative Assembly, saying: “We celebrate human rights and for schools that looked out for people. diversity, but we do more than celebrate diversity. We will do Jim would always remind us, and I know many have said everything in our power to eradicate discrimination in all of this: “You can change laws.”I know he was here in this House its forms throughout British Columbia, in all walks of life, in when I was sworn in as a member. He would say: “You know, every place, in every community.” you can change laws.”Tat’s certainly what we’re doing today. In order to change the greater society so that people don’t S. Chandra Herbert: Tank you to the Attorney General; have to rely on laws to protect them when they are targets the member for Delta North, who led the consultation on of hate and discrimination, when they don’t have to rely on this process; of course, the Premier; yourself, hon. Speaker; going to a commission or a tribunal to try and see their and the Minister of Labour as well, who, I know, for many rights protected…. Tey don’t have to do that if we change years, as a private member when we were in opposition, the culture. You can’t do that without education. worked very hard to keep the idea, the dream, the necessity We can pass all the laws in the world. You know, it’s illegal of a human rights commission alive in public discourse in to discriminate against gay people. I know you know that, this Legislature. hon. Speaker, but in my ofce, we’ve had people come and Trough moving private member’s legislation, through say hateful things, discriminatory things, violent things. speaking out, through organizing meetings, through advoc- So many people who identify as maybe not in the main- ating internally amongst the opposition, we would continue stream or have people who target them as not being nor- to put forward the idea and dream and necessity for a human mal, as being an other, can’t get that protection unless rights commission, as the New Democratic Party, given that we educate, unless we build a larger herd immunity, in a the whole concept of it was demolished back in 2002 under sense, as we do when we are vaccinating people, giving fu the former B.C. Liberal government. shots and so on. In a sense, education is a great fu shot Sixteen years is a long time, and I know a number of against hatred and bigotry. people have grown up without even knowing what a human We know that if you let it hide under the darkness of light, rights commission was or could do. Tey’d say to me — in if you don’t talk about hatred and bigotry and discrimina- going to my local high school and speaking to young people: tion, it grows like mushrooms. It spreads, and it spreads, and “What are we doing about racism? What are we doing about it spreads. A human rights commission can shine a light so sexism, homophobia?” Te list would go on. that we can spot those issues before they become bigger. So “Why don’t you as a government take this seriously?” they I’m really happy that we’re doing this. would say to me. “Why don’t we see further action?” I would I also just want to acknowledge somebody, a predecessor always talk about the fght and struggle that some of us of mine. For a while, I was the member for Vancouver–Bur- were pushing within our caucus and our now government to rard. An early member who spoke about the need for human address these issues. rights changes was Rosemary Brown, a New Democrat MLA [4:10 p.m.] from the 1970s onwards who represented Vancouver–Bur- Tey would take hope that something could be done — rard. She used to talk about how B.C.’s Human Rights Act that a government could, at some day forward, take these was so full of holes that you could drive a truck through it. issues more seriously and bring in a human rights commis- You were told you had human rights, but you had no abil- sion, bring in a body to educate, to advocate, to point out ity to actually enact them, to stop discrimination, to stop systemic issues that need addressing. Tey would take hope from being fred from a job because of what you looked like that that could happen. Well, it’s so great to be here today to or who you believed in — the very basis of human rights. see this happening. So our party continued. We expanded coverage. We did it Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6375 again in the ’90s. But each time through, governments would everyone who worked so hard on this. Te hard work is just swing in a totally diferent direction and say: “We don’t want beginning in some other ways, and I’m so excited that it’s a human rights law. You don’t need it. Everybody can stand fnally begun to better improve human rights for everybody up for themselves.” in this great province. Well, that only works if you’re the big. We know that it would be like an elephant telling all the ants, “Well, we all Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the Attorney have equal rights,” as the elephant stepped on all of the ants. General to close the debate. “Well, you’ve got the same right as me, Mr. Ant, to step on an elephant.” Of course, that doesn’t work. Te elephant can Hon. D. Eby: Tank you to all the members for their crush the ant. Te ant has no hope with the elephant. thoughtful comments. It’s a pleasure to hear members across Although, you know, there are stories about elephants’ the aisle supporting this very important initiative for our fear of mice. Maybe we need more mouse power. We cer- province. It has been a long time coming. tainly have it in this chamber. I digress. For those who don’t I know, hon. Speaker, that you, yourself, were very know, there are mice in this chamber on occasion. involved in this fght for the re-establishment of the human I’ll just wrap up by saying we know there is more to do rights commission. I wanted to thank you for all of your in the fght for human rights. We know that we need to be work, of course, of bringing the human rights commission doing more work on a number of grounds that aren’t cur- back afer 16 years and your long record of fghting for the rently covered in our human rights code. human rights of many disadvantaged and vulnerable people [4:15 p.m.] in our province. Tis bill is certainly a tribute to your work. One that I certainly discovered in the work we were doing Tank you for that. — I’ve mentioned this before — around the rental task force I move second reading. is discrimination that renters face in stratas. I’m speaking specifcally about families and age. In B.C., if you’re a land- Motion approved. lord, you can discriminate about who you sell a place to based on their age or their family status, but you can’t if Hon. D. Eby: I move the bill be referred to a Committee you’re a landlord. of the Whole House to be considered at the next sitting So we get into the funny circumstance of where a landlord afer today. is able to rent out their home, and they fnd that they can’t rent it out to people based on their age or family status Bill 50, Human Rights Code Amendment Act, 2018, read because of rules within the strata. But they also can’t dis- a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole criminate against families and people based on their age, House for consideration at the next sitting of the House under the human rights code. So we’ve got a bit of a balance afer today. problem where stratas are trying to enforce their laws under the Strata Act and a family might be trying to enforce their Hon. M. Farnworth: I call second reading debate on Bill rights under the human rights code. 51, the Environmental Assessment Act. Tere are issues like that — little gaps, things that have developed over years — that I think, if the human rights BILL 51 — ENVIRONMENTAL commission can help us address in a more timely way than ASSESSMENT ACT this House has acted on other human rights challenges…. I think of gender identity and expression. When I frst Hon. G. Heyman: I move that this bill be now read a brought legislation in this House to amend the legislation second time. to add gender identity expression to the human rights code, It’s my pleasure to speak about Bill 51, the Environmental we would have been amongst one of the frst provinces in Assessment Act. Tis bill supports our government’s goals of Canada to do that. prioritizing the health and safety of British Columbians, pro- But because it took so long, because the other government tecting our rich ecosystems and coastlines, advancing recon- — the other party that is now in the opposition — didn’t ciliation with Indigenous peoples and, of course, supporting want to support those human rights changes, we became responsible economic development. amongst one of the last provinces to actually change that Tis bill refects extensive engagement with practitioners, legislation to better protect transgender and gender diverse with Indigenous peoples, with the public, with environment peoples. groups and with industry. We’ve received extensive feedback Hopefully, with a human rights commission, we’ll be able from all of these groups. to be more proactive in our needs to update legislation, [4:20 p.m.] update policies to better refect our acceptance and the As a result of that feedback, we created a discussion paper equality of all British Columbians and all people who reside of following engagements, an initial set of engagements with here in this great place we call home. 73 Indigenous nations; seven industry and business asso- I’m proud to support this. I want to say thank you to ciations, including 63 representatives; 44 environmental 6376 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 assessment practitioners; and 33 environmental non-gov- addressed, is seen to be independent. Key elements include ernment organizations. clear timelines and public comment periods, while main- Te new Environmental Assessment Act is designed to taining fexibility where needed and appropriate. achieve three clear outcomes. Te frst one is to enhance Te legislation very, very specifcally outlines the matters public confdence and transparency and ensure that mean- that must be considered in each environmental assessment ingful participation is available to all in environmental — must be considered. Tis resulted from over 75 hours of assessments. Te second one is to advance reconciliation meetings with an environmental assessment advisory com- with Indigenous nations, including supporting the imple- mittee that was convened. mentation of the United Nations declaration on the rights of [4:25 p.m.] Indigenous peoples in this act. Sorry, I’ve discovered that I actually skipped a page, so I’ll Finally, we want to ensure that we’re protecting the come back to it. environment and the ecosystems of British Columbia for the current generation, for future generations, for British Interjection. Columbia’s rich heritage and for our role in the planet’s biodiversity, while ofering clear pathways to approval of Hon. G. Heyman: Tat’s true. sustainable projects. Te process allows for a variety of types of engagement Let me address the issue of enhancing public confdence. beyond the traditional comment periods, including more We want to ensure that public confdence throughout the opportunities for dialogue that are supported by plain-lan- entire environmental assessment process is enhanced. guage materials that can be easily understood by the public, People need to know, throughout this process, what the cri- especially laypeople. teria are that will be applied to environmental assessments We’ve added two additional public comment periods, for and how they’re going to be addressed in the environmental a total of four, one at the beginning and one at the end of the assessment process. Who is providing information, and how process. We also establish a community advisory committee is it vetted? How is it peer-reviewed? What are the oppor- as a default, unless it is clear that there is simply insufcient tunities for public participation? What are the factors that community interest to participate in the project. the assessment ofce must address in making a decision for Te act will also require that ministers must publish reas- a recommendation and that ministers must address? ons for their decisions. So the ministers will receive a report We want to ensure that the public, local communities and based on all the factors that must be considered. Tese will stakeholders can participate meaningfully, and I will detail be addressed in the report of the environmental assessment how we’re going to do that in a moment or two. We want to ofce and the recommendation contained therein, and the ensure that local communities, the public and stakeholders ministers must, in their decision, address how they dealt can have their interests and concerns fully understood and with those matters that were considered and the results of that they can see how their involvement has impacted the the consideration. assessment that’s being undertaken and how the concerns Tat applies to both the decision to issue or not issue an that they’ve raised were actually addressed in the process. environmental assessment certifcate as well as a number of Let me give some examples of features of this act that will other decision points that are contained in the act. Te act enhance public confdence. Te frst one is an early engage- stipulates that environmental assessment certifcates include ment stage. It’s a formal opportunity, contained in the legis- legally binding conditions that will be enforced. But they will lation, for the public, at the very outset of the environment- also — and this is new — be evaluated for their efectiveness al assessment process, to identify interests of communities, through audits and reporting. Te act also requires that the interests of members of the public, issues and concerns. act itself be reviewed fve years from coming into force. Why this is so important is that identifying these interests, I mentioned that there was considerable consultation and issues and concerns, as well as those raised by Indigenous input opportunities for a range of interest groups and Indi- nations, can inform project design, locations and alternatives genous nations to put their input into the process. Tat and study requirements. Tis can help shape the approach included 75 hours of meetings with an environmental assess- to both public engagement going forward in the assessment ment advisory committee that was established to provide process, as well as — and I’ll get to this again in a few balance and expert input into the proposed changes from moments — the activities of the project proponent as they industry, from practitioners, from labour, from environ- design a project that can be assessed in a timely manner and mental organizations and from Indigenous representatives, at a more cost-efective use of their resources. as well as industry. Te process itself is clearly laid out in legislation. It Te proposed changes to the act were then outlined in a includes a purpose statement for the environmental assess- discussion paper which was put out for public comment. We ment ofce that focuses on a process that’s thorough, timely, received over 2,500 comments from British Columbians and transparent and impartial in terms of ensuring that the tech- a further 60 formal submissions from Indigenous nations, nical information that goes into deciding what the risks are, non-government organizations, health authorities, local the impacts, the efects and how they can be mitigated or governments, industry and others. Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6377

A result of this feedback was a “What We Heard” doc- the early engagement phase of the process, where the minis- ument, which was published following public comments. ter considers whether to accept, exempt or terminate a pro- Eventually, afer the public comments, we published an posed project. Te second of these two stages is at the con- intentions paper that summarized what our intent for the clusion of the assessment process when ministers are decid- new act was, and we made it public last month. ing whether to issue a provincial environmental assessment We continued consultation. We continued fne-tuning the certifcate. act we have before you. Tat is why support for this bill was Fourth, where there is no alignment between the views of voiced by Indigenous leadership, by environmental organiz- any of our participating Indigenous nation and the environ- ations and by industry. mental assessment ofce’s recommendation whether or not Let me address now the very important feature of this act, to issue an environmental assessment certifcate, ministers reconciliation and the implementation of the United Nations must ofer to meet in an attempt to achieve consensus on the declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples. Consistent minister’s decisions. with this government’s overall commitments, the new act Fifh, in what is anticipated to be a rare scenario where proposes to advance reconciliation and support implement- consensus is not achieved on whether or not to issue an ation of the United Nations declaration on the rights of Indi- environmental assessment certifcate, the act requires genous peoples in the context of the environmental assess- ministers to provide reasons why a decision was made ment process. contrary to the consent or lack of consent expressed by an Tis act represents one of the frst opportunities to con- Indigenous nation. sider and implement the UN declaration on the rights of In doing so, the act makes it clear that ministers may Indigenous peoples in provincial legislation. We have done decide to issue or withhold an environmental assessment so while striking the appropriate balance. Te act, in setting certifcate in the absence of consent from a participating out the purpose of the environmental assessment ofce, Indigenous nation. While our goal is a process that will avoid identifes support for reconciliation by collaborating with that scenario, the legislation needs to and does explicitly Indigenous nations in relation to reviewable projects, con- consider this possibility. sistent with the United Nations declaration on the rights of Other examples of how the act supports reconciliation. Indigenous peoples. Advancing reconciliations by allowing the minister to enter [4:30 p.m.] into government-to-government agreements with Indigen- Te process is a consent-based process. Te proposed act ous nations for the purposes of conducting any aspect of an includes specifc provisions that are designed to promote a environmental assessment. Te act also will require Indigen- consent-based process. ous knowledge to be applied, along with western science, to decision-making in environmental assessments, where [L. Reid in the chair.] provided. Te act will further enable Indigenous nations to self-identify their participation in an environmental assess- First, the act requires that the environmental assessment ment process while providing checks to ensure that particip- ofce seek to achieve consensus with Indigenous nations ation is justifed. Te act will also ensure that participating that identify their intention to participate in the process Indigenous nations will have adequate funding to participate throughout the environmental assessment process. Tese in the environmental assessment process. nations are referred to as “participating Indigenous nations” It’s also important to note that while protecting the envir- in the act. onment, the act will provide clear pathways to successful Examples include the decision following the early engage- consideration of good projects, of all projects. Te new act ment phase on whether to proceed with an assessment, ensures that the process will be robust, comprehensive and exempt the project from assessment or terminate the assess- credible. It will ensure that the new process will assess a full ment; the issuing of a process order that sets out how the range of adverse and positive efects of a project; that it will assessment will be conducted; the development of the assess- do so in a transparent, predictable and timely way; and that ment report and any draf conditions; the recommendation it will support responsible and sustainable development. to ministers on the decision whether to issue an environ- [4:35 p.m.] mental assessment certifcate. Major development projects are a key and important part Second, where consensus is not achieved, the act provides of B.C.’s economy. Tey are an important source of jobs for for dispute resolution facilitators to assist in reaching resol- British Columbians throughout this province. I believe this ution. Te details of this voluntary, non-binding and time- new act will bring more predictability and certainty to the limited dispute resolution process will be set out in reg- environmental assessment process. It will allow good, sus- ulation afer further engagement with Indigenous nations, tainable projects to get built efciently, approved efciently industry and other stakeholders. and built on schedule. Tird, at two stages in the process, ministers are required Tis predictability will signal to investors that British to consider the consent or lack of consent of participating Columbia continues to be an attractive place to invest and do Indigenous nations. Te frst of these two stages is following business. It will increase the durability of decisions by redu- 6378 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 cing litigation. It will reduce the overall time the assessment We are not giving away our responsibility to make process takes. decisions, but we are ensuring that we streamline the pro- It will reduce the uncertainty and consequent expenditure cess. We will allow the result of other environmental assess- by project proponents by the early engagement phase and ment processes that meet the parameters laid out in our ensuring that what needs to be addressed in a project design act to apply, to not put an undue burden on time or the is identifed early, before a lot of money is spent, before sus- resources of proponents or participating communities and pensions of the process are asked for and granted, and then Indigenous nations. proponents have to go back and redesign a process almost We defne maximum timelines throughout the entire from stage one. assessment so that assessments are completed in a reason- Included in the purpose of promoting sustainability by able and predictable time frame. I’ve mentioned the new protecting the environment and fostering a sound eco- early engagement phase that will be led by the environment- nomy and the well-being of British Columbians is in the al assessment ofce to identify interests, issues and concerns act. It’s in the act as a purpose to both protect the envir- so the proponent is aware very early on and can build their onment and ensure that the overall well-being of British project design, siting or alternative approaches to the project Columbia’s communities and their economic well-being is accordingly. clearly recognized. [4:40 p.m.] We enhanced the independence of the process by ensur- We’ve added an early readiness gate decision following ing that experts and peer review of assessment information the early engagement phase to determine whether a project will be conducted by a technical advisory committee appoin- should proceed into the full environmental assessment, ted by the chief environmental assessment ofcer as a result whether it could be exempted if there is little impact or con- of public engagement and Indigenous engagement. We will troversy that has been identifed and proceed directly to per- modernize compliance and enforcement tools available to mitting or in some very specifc circumstances, whether a the environmental assessment ofce and hope to involve project should be terminated before an assessment because Indigenous nations in this important aspect of ensuring of the factors that have been identifed. environmental protection on their own territories. We want to reduce uncertainty by requiring the environ- We will monitor the efectiveness of the review of envir- mental assessment ofce to seek consensus with Indigen- onmental assessment certifcates to ensure that the mitiga- ous nations at numerous points throughout the process. We tions that were laid out in the conditions are actually efect- believe that by this consent-based process that involves both ive over time. If they are not, we will have the ability to revise the environmental assessment ofce and the proponent, we and amend those conditions so they will be. We will assess will build lasting and durable project certainty, as well as the potential efect on the province being able to meet its partnerships with Indigenous nations. greenhouse gas emission targets under the Greenhouse Gas To summarize, the new act will enhance our province’s Reduction Targets Act and address that factor in both the commitment to protect our environment, to protect our eco- report and the decision of ministers. nomy, to protect our culture and to protect the health and Tere are a number of other new elements that must be safety of British Columbians and society to ensure all British assessed in a project. Tese include the disproportionate Columbians will be able to enjoy sustainable and sound eco- efects on human populations, including populations identi- nomic development and the prosperity that comes with that, fed by gender. that the Indigenous nations can participate while their Let me give an example of that. Many Indigenous rights, culture, traditions and laws are respected and that this nations, as well as women, have identifed the impacts of can take place for generations to come. work camps that are predominantly male in isolated or Tis bill is the result of well over a year of work, of con- small localities and how that can have an impact on their sultation and of discussion. Te broad support of the bill security and well-being. Tis is now something that we achieved from Indigenous nations, from environmental have been considering in environmental assessment, and advocates and from industry is a testament to that. we will be writing it into the act. I am proud to introduce this bill, and I look forward to the We will consider efects on biophysical factors that sup- debate. port ecosystem function. We look at the efects on current and future generations, and we look at potential changes P.Milobar: First, I would like to congratulate the minister to the project that may be caused by the environment or for bringing in this bill, bringing in a 48-page bill, with changes in the environment. enough time for us to properly debate in this House both Let me close by talking about the importance of clear at second reading and have proper and full conversation pathways to success. We want to continue to promote the and questioning at committee stage moving forward to make concept of one project and one assessment between the pro- sure that everyone understands all the clauses and all the ins vincial government, the federal government and, where and outs of this bill. appropriate, Indigenous nations — but the retention of Frankly, it’s refreshing to see a minister do that, because decision-making power by each level of government. just yesterday we witnessed with Bill 53…. Te Attorney Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6379

General, with the “Save your own skin” bill, Bill 53, decided to advertise this bill as the cure-all for environmental assess- to invoke closure and stife that type of conversation and ment permits is just simply not going to happen, because robust discussion that we’re actually sent here by 87 ridings frankly, the timelines in this bill are no diferent than what and voters across this province to try to do. we currently have. It shows you that within the government ranks, some It’s, again, a sleight of hand movement by this government. ministers can bring bills forward properly — I would note We’ve seen it with the tax bills. We’ve seen it with the specu- both bills were about 48-pages long — and actually have lation tax that doesn’t do anything to cure speculation. We’ve proper wholesome and fulsome debate and be willing to seen it with the school tax that has nothing to do with defend their bill — defend it and have the scrutiny any bill schools. We’ve seen it with a litany of their taxes, where that any government brings forward, regardless of political they’re very adept at putting a catchy name on it, but it actu- stripe, should be willing to endure. ally doesn’t deliver what the name would suggest. Of course, Unfortunately, we didn’t see that with Bill 53. So it gives people, at frst blush, think that it’s a wonderful idea because me great pleasure that Bill 51 is at least going to see proper the ideal in the name is a good idea. Te action in the bill — scrutiny, unlike the Attorney General. Tankfully, I guess, like in Bill 51, the Environmental Assessment Act — is going the Attorney General wasn’t bringing this bill in or we may to fall very short. have saw closure happen tonight. Tis bill could have been We heard the minister speak at length. He kept saying introduced, and we’d have closure on Bill 51 in the next that this is a consent-based process. Instantly, he used every two hours, unlike Bill 53 yesterday, the self-preservation word but consent afer that, because he kept referring to act on recall. consensus. Tis is a consensus-based process. Te minister So on Bill 51, I fully appreciate the attempts at trying to touched on it, and rightfully so. Tere’s the preservation that reach out to communities and the attempts to try to consult the minister can ultimately make a decision to approve a with various areas. Reading the bill, I can understand why project, whether a First Nation has given consent or not. So those groups, at frst blush, would think the big bill is okay. this is about consensus. Te bill has essentially put more framework around what has Now the minister, in defnition pages, I can appreciate…. been happening in practice in the province of B.C. for sever- In the briefng, the staf were very thorough. Tey always do al years now. a very good job — the public service — of explaining that the In terms of various sections here, I’ll walk through what reason consensus does not have a defnition is that it’s a com- I mean by that. I do look forward to the committee stage monly used interpretation. But I will guarantee that when because I think, on principle, the concept of trying to have you go out to the broader community, everyone will have a a process that people can understand and people can have diferent understanding of how they interpret the word “con- confdence in — both the public as well as industry and First sensus.” Te government has not included a defnition for Nations — is important. It’s important for all sorts of pro- consensus of what they would like to see. jects. It’s important for our provincial economy. Tat becomes a problem because they also…. Although Certainly, our side of the House can agree that that they have some defnitions around what they consider par- concept is something that we need to make sure is looked ticipating First Nations, there’s still a lot of non-clarity as at from time to time, is reviewed from time to time and is to how far that will reach. Tere’s still a lot of non-clarity brought forward and advanced. around how communities will be engaged through this pro- [4:45 p.m.] cess. To suggest that this is a higher level because it refer- Te problem with this bill — and I referenced other pre- ences UNDRIP is simply not accurate. Te clause that the vious bills by this government — is this bill is very similar minister talked about, where the minister would have to to some other bills, where it’s promising the world, but when ofer a meeting to a party that didn’t like the decision, gives you really dig into the language in it, it’s not going to deliver. them a three-day response window. Unfortunately, I think there’s a whole lot of disappoint- Most of these resource projects — let’s face it — are going ment moving forward for the community. We heard the to be in rural and remote areas. It gives rural and remote minister talk about 2,500 pieces of correspondence that communities — that have limited high-speed Internet, as came back in, and that’s not a bad number. I would question we’ve discussed in this House several times; limited cell ser- the minister if he looked into what the comments provided vice, as we have discussed in this House several times — to the EAO ofce under other projects would have been three days, or the minister moves on. While any interactions when he asked for public input on these types of projects. I’ve ever had with First Nations…. I don’t think that three I know that a mine just outside of Kamloops surely had days is going to cut the test when it comes to them feeling as way more than 2,500 comments provided to the Ministry of if they have had time to consider whether or not to request a Environment on that specifc project. meeting with the minister to get further information or not. To think that those 2,500 people were the only people that All of these timelines are arbitrary. All of these timelines might have an opinion on whether this is a good process are wonderful to say, but you cannot say in one breath that or not…. What will happen is that they will pay attention you are seeking consensus but the clock is ticking. How when something is happening near their community. To try many times have we heard in this House, especially when 6380 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 the members opposite were in opposition, that things are tion. We don’t trust who has created the information.” Tose being rushed? are all understandable — why a community or a group or an [4:50 p.m.] organization who does not want to see a project move for- “You didn’t consult. You didn’t take your time. You didn’t ward would feel that way. do things properly.” Yet they hold up this piece of legislation Tis document won’t change any of that. To hear the min- as if it’s going to expedite the process. Tis is the underlying ister speak, though, this is the cure-all. Tis is the cure-all problem I have with this bill — the marketing program that because under this new act, instead of an environmental the government has around this bill. Tey are setting false assessment ofcer adjudicating and looking at all the infor- expectations to communities, to First Nations, to industry mation and making recommendations to the minister, you that somehow, this is going to expedite. know what we have now? What we have now…. When you look at the fow chart of the proposed process Tis should put everyone’s minds at ease, because it’s a that was provided to me, of course the timeline will look like radical new change. It’s a radical new direction in this piece it’s quicker than the old timeline, because they have moved of this legislation. I can understand why it took 48 pages to the start of when they start to count the days in what they make sure it got referenced properly and worked out and all consider their process. Te EA readiness decision and the the legalese. Now instead of an environmental assessment early engagement piece, both of which could take consider- ofcer, we have a chief environmental assessment ofcer. able time — years, in fact — don’t count under this govern- Instead of an EAO, we have a CEAO. ment’s mathematics. NDP math at its fnest, yet again. [4:55 p.m.] Somehow the company which is trying to develop a I’m sure that will bring great relief to any communities, resource project…. Tose couple of years are irrelevant activists, First Nations or anyone who is looking to move a because they’ve got this shiny, new faster process to go project forward — that they now have a CEAO instead of through once they deal with those frst few years. It’s quite an EAO. Tat should really bring clarity to the process. Tat disingenuous to try to say to industry: “Don’t worry. Tis should speed things along. Tat’s going to make everyone will speed things up for you.” It simply will not. have much more faith in the process on a project they may Te ideal of trying to get consensus, the ideal of trying to not actually want to see moved forward in the frst place. work with the communities, the ideal of trying to commu- Tere are all sorts of issues like that in this bill that, as we nicate with all people that feel they may be impacted by this, move through committee stage, we will want to get further I think, is one that we can all agree with. But to suggest that clarifcation for. these timelines are frm and that when they say you have 80 Now, I do know that as we consult, as we work, as we strive days, 80 days means 80 days, is simply not the case. for consensus with First Nations…. I know that other speak- We will delve into that at the committee stage to try to fnd ers may touch on this as well, so I’ll just be brief on it. I do out why the minister’s staf would say it’s not a frm timeline, know that, generally speaking, First Nations do not appre- but to hear the minister’s speech, it is. I’m guessing there was ciate it when you tell them that you’re considering them a some staf involved in creating the speech, so that’ll be an stakeholder — and understandably — because they want to interesting conversation to have. be treated like another form of government, another level of Te lengthening of the timelines that we see in this bill government. Tey want government-to-government discus- over the current system does not provide further certainty to sions, not stakeholder discussions. Yet this bill very clearly a community. As I say, I lived it. I lived it through a com- seems to demonstrate that they are being considered as munity that went through a mine application for the better stakeholders by the government. Tat’s hardly embracing part of nine years. UNDRIP. People get nervous around projects. Te fow of informa- Te increased costs that will come with this plan will be tion, the way information will be collected and disseminated a result of the increased timelines that this plan will create. out in this process, is not signifcantly diferent than what we Tis act is creating unrealistic expectations from the narrat- currently have, so to expect that you think there will be a dif- ive of the minister and the government. Tat is probably the ferent outcome just simply isn’t the case. biggest fundamental problem I have with this. I believe I actually referenced this to the minister during As I say, lots of these actions have been happening with- estimates. Tere was a large chunk of time there, so I can’t in industry for years now. In fact, one could almost look…. remember everything word for word. But I pointed out One would almost think that the minister took a step-by- that processes are all great, but if somebody is opposed to step analysis of what happened with LNG in the north and something, if they feel that process is not going to deliv- decided to call it Bill 51, the Environmental Assessment er them the outcome they want, they start to challenge the Act. It’s all been done already. So to call this revolutionary process. and new is going to create problems when the actual rub- Tey start to challenge what it is — the legislation, the ber hits the road. application process — that a project’s going under. Tey will As usual, with this bill, it’s enabling legislation that has put their hands up and immediately say: “We need more none of the regulation that’s going to come with it any- time. We need to have more input. We need more informa- where near. A lot of that regulation is what will actually Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6381 truly delay things. When you look at Bill 51 by itself, given greenhouse gas emissions and the new climate plan that no that most of this is already taking place, especially on one has seen yet. It’s the layering. It’s the underhandedness of very large-scale projects…. Most corporations have real- layering these bills, where they do actually all interconnect ized this is a way forward in terms of working productively when it comes to a major resource project but are all being with First Nations to provide good, stable employment looked at independently. opportunities, training opportunities, sharing of resource All these outside groups are going: “Well, you know, that royalties and other initiatives. bill — we can live with it.” But I can guarantee you that Tey’ve been doing that already. Corporations, arguably, the conversations I have with people in industry and with are ahead of government on this. But when you look at Bill projects are much diferent than what the government has. 51 and stack it in there with Bill 49, which is the new pro- What the government has with those groups is groups that fessional reliance model, and you layer those two together, are very worried about a very punitive response from gov- you start to see the real underlying direction that this gov- ernment if they dare speak against them. I can understand ernment is headed down. why, when they’re used to seeing the famous memo about We just voted against — and the government approved making sure that you never dissent with government or else — their 19th new tax in a year and a half, so they’re a little retribution will happen. ahead of one a month. Tat’s a pretty good clip right now I can understand why, when they see a government whose to keep bringing in new taxes. Hopefully, they don’t last too Attorney General sees no problem with invoking closure long in government, or we could have — what? — 48…? No, mid-session on a bill that he’s worried about recalling him- 54, because they gave themselves an extra six months. Tat’s self. So he feels no problem demanding that we invoke clos- right. So 54 months. We could have 54 new taxes if they run ure on a bill to just get it out of the way because he needs out the full term here at this pace. to make sure he’s protecting himself. So you wonder how When you layer in all those taxes, all of what’s happening industry might have a slightly diferent take on these bills — employer health tax and everything else — and you think moving forward than what, perhaps, they’re sharing with the of the payrolls involved on these large-scale resource devel- government. opment projects, and then you layer in Bill 49, which is the Tere is a lot of governmental work that happens with professional reliance, and the nightmare bureaucracy that the engineers and with the foresters. Tere’s a lot of gov- that is going to create — I believe we’ll be in committee stage ernmental work tied in with the Environmental Assessment on that bill in the next day or the following week, when we Act by those same types of professionals. Do you think they come back from break — it’s going to create problems. want…? Especially when you talk about potential rosters, We haven’t even touched on the new climate plan, which where the government will now be approving who gets to be was supposed to be introduced this fall. I’m not sure when. on a roster to even practise. We have — what? — seven days lef in the legislative calen- Of course they’re not going to scream and yell about the dar. So maybe I spoke too soon about bringing bills in with Environmental Assessment Act. Tey need to make sure appropriate times to debate, because maybe we’re going to they get on the government roster. It’s almost like a com- see closure brought in when we ever see the climate plan, just munity beneft, but instead of the handpicked unions, they’re like we saw with the self-serving Bill 53, the “Protect your handpicking which professionals get to work in our province own skin” recall act, yesterday. now. Tat is the problem. [5:00 p.m.] Te really scary part is that I think the bulk of the mem- Tat is really, at its core, the biggest problem. When you bers of the government, based on comments earlier, just a look at the layering of taxation, when you look at the lay- minute ago, doesn’t actually understand the magnitude of ering of regulation and ultimate power and authority that some of these changes, when they’re comparing them to law- some of these acts are going to be granting to politically yers. We’re not seeing the government try to take over the chosen superintendents — can’t say EAO; CEAO — it gets legal profession. very worrisome. We’re not saying there should not be an overarching pro- Ten you have wonder what is going to be in the climate fessional association guiding people’s professional conduct. plan. Te climate plan actually gets referenced in Bill 51. A We’re not saying there should not be the BCMA. We’re not climate plan we haven’t even seen yet gets referenced in Bill saying there shouldn’t be a legal situation. We’re saying there 51 as a hurdle for industry to have to meet. shouldn’t be a government-handpicked political appointee We’re not sure if this an end run for government to try…. that gets to override all of that and make up whatever rules If LNG needs any slight amendments, to be able to suddenly they want and then handpick who gets to be on a roster to say: “Well, we supported it, but guess what. Now we don’t.” be deemed adequate by said handpicked political appointee, We don’t know what this means for LNG moving forward on and then they could work on projects under the Environ- train 3 and 4 — this new Environmental Assessment Act. We mental Assessment Act. don’t know. [5:05 p.m.] Tis bill could essentially close the door on any new devel- It is a reach in the extreme, and Bill 51 is not accomplish- opment, when you look at the way the wording is around ing anything the minister is trying to advertise it is going 6382 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 to do. Bill 51 is going to create more confusion out there as to consensus on this, chances are we’re going to say no to a people start to try to move through a process and realize it’s project. Why is that a problem? Because they cannot defne actually going to take longer. consensus. Tey can’t defne whether it’s First Nations com- Bill 51 is enabling legislation, but the regulations that will munities as well as a local municipality as well as a regional really be the meat of this bill are not expected for another district. All need to have consensus? year. Another whole year where people are going to be in Tey can’t decide to defne if it’s the elected chief and limbo and wondering which rules they’re supposed to be council that will represent the nation or if it’s a diferent pro- operating under — people that are opposed to projects, cess. Tey do reference that it’s up to a First Nation to choose demanding to know why they can’t be under Bill 51. Well, their representation. But I think we’ve seen, even with the because there’s no regulation to go with Bill 51 at this point. Kinder Morgan project, there is dissenting opinion within Again, what’s the rush? Why not work on the regulation if First Nations on who’s speaking on whose behalf, even with- you can’t really do much with this bill until the regulations in a nation. are in place? Tat’s going to be a year from now. Why not [5:10 p.m.] bring this forward next fall? Tere is so much ambiguity in this bill right now that it We know the government’s committed to fall sessions in really does make one question how the minister can stand in their CASA agreement with the Greens. Of course, they this House and insist that this bill is going to accelerate pro- seem to be changing the parameters of the CASA agreement jects and fgure out a way forward to help remote communit- on a regular basis, so maybe they’re not confdent there’s ies create the jobs and their opportunities that they deserve going to be a fall sitting next year. Kind of like when they to have. You’re not going to get some high-tech hub that’s 600 changed the rules on the proportional representation ref- kilometres in any direction to the nearest town. It’s not going erendum and just turned their back on it and didn’t really to happen. think much of it. Tese are the communities that are impacted when a Why not? Tey can do whatever they want. Tey’ve got government staunchly wants to fgure out how to put up a hefy one-seat majority in the House, based on a hand- every roadblock they can for a project so that those com- written deal they showed to the Lieutenant-Governor, to be munities are lef out. Te environmental groups from all allowed to govern. Tat’s a pretty strong mandate, if I’ve ever over the world that keep trying to push their agenda in seen, to run roughshod over the democratic process in Brit- British Columbia aren’t really that worried about that ish Columbia, to run roughshod over the ability to properly remote community. debate a bill that they chose to introduce. Tis bill does nothing to accelerate things. Te concept of Tey chose to introduce the bill, Bill 53, the self-serving it is understandable and supportable. I very much look for- protect-your-own-butt recall initiative act. Tey chose to ward to the questions during committee stage. At 48 pages bring that bill forward, and the Attorney General demanded and with all of the back-and-forth sections in this, I hazard closure on that bill. Because they have such a strong mandate to guess we’re going to have a great many questions. from the people on that side of the House, they feel they can I thank you for the time today on Bill 51, and I look for- run roughshod over the democratic process in this province. ward to hearing other people’s comments. It’s shameful. So here we have Bill 51 that, when you layer it with Bill 49, E. Ross: Tis bill, Bill 51, the Environmental Assessment when you layer it…. I’m not sure what we’re going to call the Act, took me back to the days when I stopped focusing on bill for the climate action plan, because no one is really sure Indian Act programming, on trying to solve it by trying to when we’re going to see it, with seven days to go in this legis- solve Indian Act–related issues or even trying to deal with lative calendar. When you layer all those together with all the treaty negotiations under the B.C. treaty process, mainly other tax measures, with how punitive this government has because these processes did nothing to provide a future for tried to be with anyone that dares try to create opportunity my band and, more importantly, provided no future for my in this province, how punitive they’ve been with any com- band members. pany that dares make a proft…. Tis is a hugely personal topic for me, when we’re talking How we’re supposed to have faith that this bill is going to about rights and title and environmental assessment acts. accelerate projects and bring things forward in a positive and Even 15 years ago…. Even today I’m still reading the news productive way to allow the economy to continue to grow, about Aboriginals in prison, Aboriginal children in care, especially in rural B.C., is interesting to me. We heard the unemployed Aboriginals and Aboriginals on welfare. I know minister talk about consensus and then talk about how…. these people. Tey’re my friends. Tey’re family. Tey’re But the minister’s hands aren’t tied. Tey can still make a acquaintances from all across Canada. decision even if consensus isn’t there. But he really wanted In terms of this bill, in terms of rights and title, the only to make sure and drive home the point that that would be a type of reconciliation I see as a priority to talk about is eco- very rare occasion. nomic reconciliation, and I never hear that being brought Well, if it’s going to be a very rare occasion, the minister, up in any of these discussions. Tis is the cure for Abori- by his own words, is essentially saying if a group can’t get ginals who want out of these dismal situations. Sad to say, Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6383 there is no word in this bill that talks about economic recon- for their own agenda. I tried to fnd information and facts so ciliation. Tere’s no talk about self-sustainability or inde- I could (1) learn for myself about the reality of what happens pendence, when, really, that’s the biggest issue facing Canada in the outside world and (2) see if there’s a solution to what today. It has been labelled as Canada’s shame. our people were going through. Tere’s an opportunity to fx it using existing case law and In trying to understand the complex world of section 35 fxing it by inserting it into the environmental assessment of the constitution and related case law, I came across the bill. UNDRIP was inserted — an undefned document that B.C. Environmental Assessment Act. I’m probably only one was actually developed in New York. Tat was inserted. Why of two people in my entire community that had read that not insert economic reconciliation, as laid out in the case law Environmental Assessment Act 15 years ago. established by the courts of Canada and B.C.? I read it, along with getting supporting information from When I started in council in 2003, I opposed everything the B.C. environmental assessment ofce, and engaged with in terms of economic development. I wanted to shut it all those staf people from the B.C. environmental assessment down, for a number of reasons. Probably my biggest reason ofce. I found that they were struggling to fnd a way to was because my neighbouring town had all the wealth and, incorporate rights and title, as well, into the act. It was just at one time, per capita, were the highest wage-earners in one paragraph at the time. Canada. Yet seven miles down the road, my First Nation had It doesn’t help that, still, very few people understand nothing. Te town of Kitimat had an aluminum smelter, a Aboriginal rights and title case law, including people in pulp and paper mill, a methanol plant and port develop- this House and including other Aboriginal leaders. Te ment, while my band had to live hand to mouth under fund- only ones that can make sense of it are lawyers, and even ing agreements signed with Ottawa. that becomes interpretive — except for, of course, my col- In this respect, I’m glad that there’s more defnition, even league from Vancouver. though it’s kind of vague, about Aboriginal rights and title I’ll give this to the NDP government. At least, in form- case law in this new bill. ing this new bill, the NDP government decided to con- I had no vision of taking revenge on the city of Kitimat. I tinue to follow existing case law as a priority. UNDRIP, didn’t want any of the wealth developed by the smelter, the the United Nations declaration on the rights of Indigenous pulp and paper mill. I didn’t want any of that. Te case law people, is a political document that’s undefned. You can’t said you could only look forward, from day one, in terms of legislate it. But the case law you can. Tat’s what this bill 2004 case law, the Haida court case on the duty to consult does, for the most part. and accommodate. For the most part, when I was looking through this bill, Around that same time, when I was looking to oppose all the template was set already, over 14 or 15 years of the economic development, I was also believing, at that time, the LNG industry establishing a base in B.C. Everything I’ve rhetoric that was passed around by opposition — that gov- seen in this bill, in terms of the measures, I experienced ernment, non-natives and corporations were evil and were over the last 14 years. A lot of it was successful. Some of to blame for everyone’s lot in life. But afer agreeing to at least it failed. Dispute resolution, mediation, the protection of listen to the benefts of engaging with industry and govern- the bill to take legal action, even strength of claim and try- ment, especially in light of the court case on the duty to con- ing to fgure out how to defne it — it’s all in this bill. But sult and accommodate, I slowly began to realize that I had it’s actually what I experienced at the working level in Kit- been lied to by people and organizations that could care less amaat Village over the last 14 years. about my people, let alone my community. Now, it’s not clear what this bill talks about in terms of [5:15 p.m.] early engagement. It’s diferent from what I experienced. Most of them were environmental activist organizations From what I experienced with the LNG industry — even who still, today, use Aboriginals for their own agendas, before they made an application, even before they made which is to shut down Canada. Tey have no concern for mention to B.C. — they came to our ofce. Tat is early Aboriginal issues, whether it be poverty or suicide. It’s a engagement. despicable stance to take. Once they understood our issues and once we had a pro- I also began to realize that government can’t fx the issues tocol, then they went and applied for the environmental cer- that First Nations face today in Canada. It would take bil- tifcate, a section 10. From then on, they kept coming back lions and billions of dollar just to get it up to standards and getting our interest before any single permit was applied and then it would take billions more just to maintain those for. It was easier for them. I don’t see that wording in this standards. It’s much better if you put the First Nations in a bill. I see a technical, complicated bunch of clauses that talk position where they can engage in the economy and become about early engagement. Tat is not early engagement, based independent and be in a position to address their own issues on what made LNG successful in Kitimat. on their own terms with their own revenue base, which they But the strength of claim that’s actually driving this doc- don’t have today. ument, mainly, is something that governments can’t deviate I ignored all the manipulators. I ignored all the environ- from, whether it be Canada or B.C., regardless of what you mental activists and their organizations that used our people 6384 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 say about UNDRIP. You can’t deviate from it, or else you’re to resolve some overlap issues, and I couldn’t get anywhere, actually ignoring your duty as government. because the issues are too complicated. In fact, the language in this document is so similar to the Te strength-of-claim language here is actually defned, existing case law. It’s just diferent wording. It’s all it is. Te whereas the previous act didn’t have that defnition. But in government has to “seek consensus.” Tat’s case law. terms of the strength-of-claim question in this bill, all it [5:20 p.m.] says is that if the strength of claim is not strong enough for I know you think it’s UNDRIP, but it’s actually case law the government to consider consultation or accommoda- — Aboriginal rights and title case law. But the authority tion for a First Nation, then government will notify that of the decision remains with the minister. Tat is case law. First Nation that their evidence is weak. Tat’s it. It doesn’t Te case law says that First Nations don’t have a veto. Con- say anything else. sultation must be a two-way street, and the government Under existing case law, the strength of claim is actually still has to make a decision. Tat is in Aboriginal rights linked to the amount of consultation and accommodation and title case law. a First Nation receives when you’re dealing with rights Te consent provision. Now, there’s been tremendous and title. Tis document mentions it but doesn’t talk about argument and debate on what consent means, in light of the amount of consultation and accommodation owed to a the United Nations declaration on the rights of Indigenous First Nation. It doesn’t talk about that. Tat’s going to be a people, and nobody’s actually solved it yet. I understand problem. how the government tried to insert consent to alleviate some I do wonder what the answer will be when a First Nation is of the political concern, but really, the government, in this excluded from an environmental assessment in dealing with clause here, actually protected the Aboriginal rights and title Aboriginal rights and title but will be allowed to particip- case law and protected the power of the minister to make a ate in a regional assessment. Of course, they have the ability decision. to go to court, under this document, under this section 51. Consent in this bill is only applicable if the government Anybody has that ability. It’s not new. agrees that the First Nation can have consent, and it can only [5:25 p.m.] be for specifc areas. Te First Nation can have consent if the Without prejudice, nothing “abrogates or derogates.” government allows them to have consent in specifc areas. Yeah, that’s true, too, in all of the negotiations that you have Tat’s not quite consent. Tat’s somebody else giving you with First Nations. It’s not new. Anybody knows that First permission to have consent, as long as I agree to it as govern- Nations that don’t develop a good, strong strength of claim ment. Tat is not quite consent. or don’t have the level of consultation or accommodation Te First Nation leaders who are read up on rights and levels they want, have the right to go to court. It happens title will see through this. Te strength-of-claim language, all the time, even if they don’t have title. Even if they don’t even though it’s not referred to as strength-of-claim, will have rights in there, they still go to court. Some of them win. continue to be a problem under this act. It’s a tough, sensitive Some of them lose. It’s not new. issue. First Nations and government have been trying to deal Even if you didn’t have this language in the bill, they with it for the last 30 years, ever since they brought in the would still have that ability. In fact, all the First Nations in B.C. treaty process. the B.C. treaty process have the ability to go to court while Tis document is not going to solve it, no matter how they’re in the B.C. treaty process. B.C. and Canada’s response much collaboration, no matter how much early engagement, to that is: “If you go to court to litigate, then we will suspend dispute resolution, because there are a lot of outstanding negotiations under the B.C. treaty process.” It’s already there. issues between First Nations that go back 100 and 150 years. Maybe 30 years ago or 50 years ago, First Nations didn’t Tere are a lot of grievances amongst these First Nations on have access to lawyers and, therefore, couldn’t go to court. who the rightful title holders of certain territories are. Today, that’s diferent. Every First Nation leader knows they Today the price is high when you’re talking about bound- have the ability to go to court, regardless of any bills. Tat aries, when you’re talking about a specifc project, especially goes for all Canadians. You can’t limit anybody in Canada if it’s in the billions of dollars. Every First Nation is essen- from going to court. Whether or not the court will accept tially broke, especially up in northern B.C. — not in south- you or make a decision for you, that’s a diferent question. ern B.C. On the ports, in the urban areas, there are certain In the minister’s opening comments, he talked about gov- First Nations that are entirely rich and don’t need this type of ernment-to-government discussion and negotiations — assistance in a bill. already exist. Traditional knowledge will be incorporated Te words in this document are not going to solve the into this bill. Tat already exists. It’s there in case law. Most overlap issue. Where it’s going to come from is First Nation of this stuf you didn’t have to put in, because the case law leaders sitting down together and developing a partnership already speaks defnitively to it in terms of what’s allowed. on their own. Tat’s where it’s going to come from. It’s going Te impact on genders. Tat was an interesting clause. I to be a reconciliation between First Nations. Te mediation agree with that. I always have. I went to these conferences. I is not going to help. Believe me. I was a mediator in trying went to these reports and understood what was really hap- pening in these types of projects, especially when we’re talk- Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6385 ing about young, vulnerable, native women being exposed to work on that. Our band lobbied heavily to have shared work camps. decision-making at the minister’s level. Tis is not what this Let me tell you something. Tat impact on gender hap- bill is talking about. Te minister’s decision is the minister’s pens today, with or without economic development. It’s hap- decision alone. pening in my community. In fact, it’s even worse when I do understand now, given my education over the last ten Aboriginal women are on welfare and they’ve got no other years in terms of looking at government issues, why it can’t choice but to enter the sex trafc. It’s already there. It’s be achieved, to have true shared decision-making at the min- already in urban Vancouver, and there are no major projects ister’s level. Tere’s a lot of responsibility. Tere’s a lot of liab- happening in Vancouver. I’m not sure it belongs in an envir- ility. Te minister of the Crown actually owes a duty to all onmental assessment act. Maybe it belongs in a diferent bill. British Columbians, not just certain groups. So I’m not quite But to think that this is only going to happen with major pro- sure the shared decision-making clause actually is what First ject development is wrong. It’s sending the wrong message. Nations think it’s supposed to be. It hasn’t really defned that. Te problem exists today. If you’re collaborating…. Tat leads up to a decision. Yes, Tere’s another omission of what’s really happening that’s admirable, but that is not shared decision-making, here, especially when we talk about the timelines. Time- especially if the minister protects his decision-making lines are irrelevant, regardless of the old act or this act. powers. Tat’s what this act does. It protects ministers’ Tere are just too many provisions that allow for suspen- decision-making powers, and rightly so. sion or even blockades, opposition. Tis bill could have In terms of this act following case law, in terms of rights been made stronger in terms of what happens when some- and title, you’ve already mentioned that this act will follow body outright breaks the law in terms of a project going section 35 the constitution. Why can’t you mention that it’s ahead, the consultation, the accommodation and the pro- going to follow existing case law that’s actually pursuant to cesses that are listed out in this project. section 35 of the constitution? Te answer I received from What happens when somebody breaks a law — not just the B.C. staf was: “Well, that goes without saying, so there’s once, but over an extended period of time — especially when no need to mention it.” Tat can’t be further from the truth. a project could help global warming, like LNG, or could help I haven’t met…. Very few people in this place understand First Nations from Prince George get out of poverty? What the nature of rights and title. Case law — very few people happens when a small group of people break the law? Under understand it. It’s a vague concept. It’s almost an abstract a lawful bill like Bill 51, I think that’s worth mentioning, concept. I don’t understand it myself, because I’ve been try- especially if you’re going to talk about all the other stuf that ing to deal with it for 14 years. I don’t understand it fully. It really has nothing to do with environmental assessments. can be interpreted so many diferent ways, and that creates a I heard this government say a number of times that there lot of uncertainty. Tis bill prolongs that uncertainty. It con- will be more clarity, and there will be a new way of doing frms it. Tere’s nothing here that actually contravenes case business, but this act just reconfrms the uncertainty that is law or even makes the rights and title consultation accom- present today. Tat’s all it did. It just codifed the uncertainty modation any quicker or any clearer. Tere’s nothing in this that we face. It doesn’t ofer solutions. bill that does that, that hasn’t been tried before. It’s still in [5:30 p.m.] practice today without this bill. Te timeline will be broken unless the government is will- I’m not saying if you include the one phrase describing ing to tell a First Nation: “Sorry, you missed a deadline. rights and title case law…. I’m not saying that if you We’ve got to keep going, because it says so in our bill.” I include it, people will understand it. But at least for the want to be around when the government tells that to a First leaders, who understand the basics of rights and title case Nation. I’d like to be there. I hope there’s a press release or a law in relation to section 35 of the constitution, they’ll media availability, because I’ve seen it before. It doesn’t end have a point of reference to go on. Tey won’t be misled. nicely, because rights and title says you can’t impose time Tey won’t continue to think that the United Nations limits. You can’t do it, especially when you’re talking about declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples is the new capacity. law of the land, because it’s not. For clarity’s sake — like what I’ve heard this government Tis bill confrms that rights and title case law will still say — and to speed up the timelines, which this bill is not lead the discussions. It will still lead the decision-making of going to do…. I’m sure many people in B.C., including First the Crown — in this case, the minister. Tat type of clarity Nations, corporations, even administrators of the B.C. gov- would be refreshing. ernment themselves would appreciate language that states [5:35 p.m.] the obvious intent of this act, which is to continue using It wouldn’t just be refreshing to have this clarity just for existing case law to guide government decision-making. First Nations. It would also help, immensely, the front-line workers of the B.C. government, who will have to answer [R. Chouhan in the chair.] and deal with the First Nations, who will be demanding clear and concise responses on why the United Nations declar- In terms of shared decision-making, we did extensive ation on the rights of Indigenous peoples isn’t being fully 6386 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 implemented. Tis would help those staf people that are Unfortunately, there are clauses that will defeat it in this going to have to deal with the abuse, that are going to have same bill. to deal with the anger. Reading this act was like reading a checklist of what we Tis act could also use more clarity, especially around had done in Kitimat. defnitions — the defnition of “consensus,” for example, in [5:40 p.m.] the context of this bill. I’m sure a number of us have already If we don’t keep going down this road of getting LNG pro- looked up the word “consensus” in the dictionary. Te jects approved, we’re not going to address global warming. simplest defnition I could fnd was: “An opinion or position We’re not going to get China to reduce its 34 percent load of reached by a group as a whole.” emissions into our atmosphere, versus Canada’s 1.5 percent. Well, I’m glad this NDP government wasn’t in government We need a cleaner bill with more clarity to get more LNG for the last 14 years while I was trying to get LNG across projects built. We don’t need more obstacles like more taxes. the fnish line, because the FID that we just recently heard Carbon tax — the United States doesn’t have one. We don’t about a couple months ago never would have happened, only need a climate action plan that’s going to limit emissions but because of the double standard of the word “consensus.” continue to allow Asia or the United States to increase theirs. Where did we get this word — consensus? Again, from We don’t need this stuf. UNDRIP.Te double standard I’m talking about only applies Canada is a leader in environmental protection. We’re the to First Nations along a project that has a linear route. Tat’s leader in reducing emissions. We need a bill that can get the the only place it has meaning. But when you look at other LNG projects built. We need a bill that can get other pro- jurisdictions or other entities…. Many mayors didn’t agree jects built quickly and that can lif all of us up, First Nations with the speculation tax. Many homeowners in Point Grey and non–First Nations alike. Te revenues that we get from didn’t agree with the school tax. Many employers don’t agree these projects can turn around and help with our highways with the employer health tax. But there’s no consensus. and our hospitals. Tere’s no consensus, but for some reason the NDP govern- We don’t need obstacles. We don’t need this bureaucratic ment still pushed it through. language that talks a mean game but is really designed to But in the case of a linear project for First Nations — shut down the economic fabric of B.C. and Canada. We don’t maybe 30 in total, maybe 40 in total — there has to be con- need that. sensus. Tat’s such a double standard. Why are First Nations We’ve got a lot to be proud of in Canada. It was built being held to a higher standard? It’s not case law. It’s not by people that wanted a better life for their citizens. Tis the law. Te case law is clear. Te Crown can still make a bill should actually promote that, build on that and build a decision, even with lack of agreement. stronger future for tomorrow and for tomorrow’s children. So if the majority of First Nations want a project that will Not a bill that is designed to shut down or slow down the lif their people out of poverty, and this government feels economy of B.C. that only a minority of them oppose the project, their rights will be upheld, but they will say nothing about the major- R. Glumac: I’d like to tell you a little story, a story about ity of the First Nations who support economic development. a little lake in the heart of our province called Fish Lake. It’s Tis is unfair, especially when a lot of leaders are trying to called Fish Lake because it’s full of fsh. bring their people out of poverty. Tey’re trying to get them If you were to stand on the shores of this lake, you might jobs. Tey’re trying to raise their own revenues so they can be awestruck by the beauty of this lake. It might make you provide their own programing suited to what their needs are. feel proud to be a British Columbian and of how beautiful If anything, this bill is going to extend the timelines for our province is. environmental assessments for the majority of First Nation If you were a biologist, you might fnd that the ecosystem groups that are looking for a way out, because they see the around this lake is an incredible ecosystem, full of fsh and opportunity, the economic reconciliation, but the minority fsh habitat, full of grizzly bears, full of moose. You might be will have the power to stop projects all across B.C. bringing your staf and students up there to study this land. In a sense, I knew that the LNG project development that If you were an executive in a mining company, you might my band had undertaken — and is currently writing the think that this lake would be a great tailings pond. Te only handbook on consultation and accommodation — was actu- way to really determine whether that would be an appro- ally going to help develop B.C. It was going to shape B.C.’s priate use for this lake is through a robust environmental future. We did it. We did it in partnership with the B.C. assessment process that could determine whether that use Liberal government, and we did in partnership with LNG would be appropriate or not. Canada, Chevron, AltaGas. It was a partnership, and it didn’t Back in 2010, the federal environmental assessment require a bill. But I see that everything we did that was suc- agency issued a report about this lake. In that report, they cessful was incorporated into this bill. concluded that the particular mining project that wanted to If the honour of the Crown is upheld in terms of looking use this lake as a tailings pond would result in signifcant out for the future of B.C. and lives with the case law as deter- adverse environmental efects on the fsh and fsh resources mined by the courts of B.C. and Canada, this bill will work. for traditional purposes by First Nations, on cultural herit- Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6387 age and on certain potential or established Aboriginal rights a disagreement between the views of afected Indigenous and title. Te panel also concluded that the project would nations and the environmental assessment ofce recom- result in adverse cumulative efects on grizzly bears and mendation of whether or not to issue an environmental cer- moose in the region and on fsh and fsh habitat. tifcate, the appropriate ministers are required to meet and Te conclusion of this environmental assessment agency try to achieve consensus again. If afer all of this consensus report is notable because it difered from how the provincial is still not achieved, the minister will be required to provide environmental assessment concluded. Provincially, the reasons for why such a decision was made, thereby proving environmental assessment ofce recognized that there was the transparency of the entire process. going to be a loss of Fish Lake but concluded that the com- Tis legislation will also improve environmental protec- pensation — a new lake to be created by the mining com- tion, which should be a key goal of the environmental assess- pany somewhere else — would be adequate compensation. ment ofce. Te act will bring more independence to the Tereby, the provincial environmental assessment certifcate environmental assessment process through greater oversight was granted. Luckily, the federal environmental certifcate of experts. We recently passed legislation which establishes was not granted. the ofce of a superintendent of professional governance. Te public certainly does not gain any confdence in the Tat’s going to be something where there is going to be a lot province’s weak environmental assessment process afer this more oversight over the professionals involved in the envir- conficting decision. Tis is just one example of where the onmental assessment process and more independence from trust of the public was shaken, with many feeling that our the proponent. process under the previous government did not adequately Tere will be more compliance and enforcement tools protect the environment, was not transparent and did not through this process and greater monitoring of mitigation take First Nations and other input into account adequately. eforts to see if things are actually working. Greenhouse gas [5:45 p.m.] emissions will be assessed to see how the project fts into our All this is now going to be addressed. It’s going to be targets as a province. Te efects of future generations will changing afer we pass this legislation. Tis legislation will also be considered through this process. enhance public confdence in our environmental assessment It’s critical that the public trust our environmental assess- process, and this new environmental assessment process will ment process. We recognize that protecting the environment be more transparent and allow for more meaningful public should go hand in hand with economic growth. participation. Te B.C. Auditor General recently wrote a report. Tey One of the ways it’s going to do this is through early singled out a lack of efective provincial oversight as a cause engagement. Right from the beginning of this process, the for a degradation of water quality in the Elk Valley, particu- public, not the proponent, can identify the issues and con- larly due to high concentrations of selenium from coal min- cerns in order to inform the entire process going forward. ing. Tis is happening because of a lack of a comprehensive Following this early engagement, there will be an opportun- environmental assessment process. ity to either proceed or, if it’s deemed that it’s not appropriate Te process that we have is very much proponent-driven. to proceed, then to terminate the assessment early so that the Te proponent defnes the scope of the project in the current company doesn’t have to go through a long process only to process. Te proponent conducts the assessment in the cur- fnd out, in the end, that they won’t be granted the certifcate. rent process. Te proponent participates in the government Tere will be multiple opportunities for engagement, review of the process. What we’re moving to now is a process including opportunities for dialogue, like meaningful dia- that has more independence. It has more transparency. It has logue, not just speaking at a microphone or sending in a let- more opportunity for the public to be meaningfully engaged ter. Tere will also be opportunities, through a community in this process. advisory committee, to gather the advice of the local com- [5:50 p.m.] munity. If an environmental assessment certifcate is issued, Te previous process had two public comment periods. there will also be legally binding conditions that are enforced Te feedback from people engaged in this process was that and evaluated through ongoing audits. it felt like public input was just like ticking a box. Tat’s not Tis legislation will also advance reconciliation and going to be the way it is anymore. Tis legislation will help implementation of the United Nations declaration on the regain the trust of the public in our environmental assess- rights of Indigenous peoples. Te act requires that the ment process that was lost under the previous government. environmental assessment ofce seek to achieve consensus In the previous government, environmental concerns with Indigenous nations that are afected by a project. were not a priority. In the previous government, the interests Te act also ensures that participating Indigenous nations of the public were not a priority. Te interests of First have adequate funding to participate in the environmental Nations rights were not a priority. But these are priorities for assessment process. this government, and that’s why I’m proud to support this Trough this participation, if consensus is not achieved legislation. between Indigenous nations, facilitators will be used for dis- pute resolution to assist in achieving resolution. If there’s S. Furstenau: I’m pleased to rise today and speak to the 6388 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

Environmental Assessment Act. Tis legislation ofers us an as it requires that every environmental assessment considers opportunity to enhance sustainability in all senses of the a project’s greenhouse gas emissions and its direct impacts word — environmental, economic, social and cultural. on our targets. It also requires assessments to refect identi- As we move forward in an era of reconciliation, it is essen- fed government policies which could be used to incorporate tial that we recognize, both in our words and in our actions, application of climate strategies. the principles of the United Nations declaration on the rights I do, however, have some reservations. Tis legislation of Indigenous peoples. In an era of climate change, it is does not appear to require an assessment to consider the life also essential that we consider the far-reaching impacts of cycle and lifespan emissions of a project, which is vital. It resource management practices and that we manage our doesn’t matter if a project or facility is the “cleanest” if it has ecosystems holistically. already blown through our carbon budget upstream. While It is for these reasons that the legislation before us today greenhouse gas emissions must be considered, the minis- is critically important. For too long in British Columbia we ters can still approve projects that will impair B.C.’s ability to have failed to adequately assess the environmental impacts meet its legislated emission reduction targets. of our actions with numerous consequences. We have seen [5:55 p.m.] frsthand how logging can endanger a watershed or how I appreciate that the minister needs to be able to use their project approvals have failed to acknowledge the associated discretion when evaluating the complex matrix of costs and greenhouse gas emissions. We have also witnessed the dis- benefts that every project exists within. Te legislation, as proportionate impacts of these consequences on Indigenous presented, is asking us to trust the government to make the peoples. right decision. So far, governments have not done enough As the federal court of appeal ruled just a few months to inspire trust that those decisions will favour reducing the ago, the federal government failed to adequately consult First fow of greenhouse gas emissions over reducing the fow of Nations impacted by the Trans Mountain pipeline project. money, despite the threats we face. It is challenging to leave Tis decision has signalled to all of us that we can and must such an important decision to trust. do better. In the span of just a few centuries, earth has made a British Columbia was one of the frst provinces to estab- transition from a past, when climate afected the evolution lish environmental assessment legislation in the 1990s. of human societies, to the present, in which humans are Although this legislation has been adjusted over the years, afecting the evolution of the climate system. Today we are many voices have said it was insufcient. Several years ago at a pivotal moment in human history. Our generation will the Environmental Law Centre at the University of Victoria be responsible for deciding what paths the future climate reported that B.C.’s environmental assessment process “suf- will take. fers from a clear lack of public confdence.” We know that global warming will lead to an increasing In 2011, the Auditor General published a report on the likelihood of summer droughts. Tis, in turn, will lead to post-certifcation stage of government’s environmental more and more extensive wildfres. We know that precip- assessment process. Te report found that “the environ- itation extremes will increase and that fooding events will mental assessment ofce is not evaluating the efectiveness be on the rise. At the rate we are going, we are looking at of environmental assessment mitigation measures to ensure between 20 percent and 50 percent of the world’s species, that projects are achieving the desired outcomes.” It also almost certainly including the iconic Fraser River sockeye, found that the environmental assessment ofce was “not becoming committed to extinction in this century. Global making appropriate monitoring, compliance and outcome warming is a threat to our economic well-being. It is a threat information available to the public to ensure accountability.” to our human well-being. If the environment in which we In 2017, we committed to revitalizing this legislation. It live is unwell, we, too, will be unwell. was a key shared policy initiative outlined in the confdence Te current state of B.C.’s climate is not “the new normal,” and supply agreement between our caucus and government. as many were saying this summer from under the cloud of Another key initiative in CASA is a renewed commitment smoke. “Normal” implies a plateau and consistency. We are to reducing our greenhouse gas emissions. Tis spring we not on a plateau. We are on a steep trend towards increas- updated our targets for dramatic cuts to carbon pollution as ingly extreme events. I’m sad to say this is just the beginning, stated in the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Targets Act. and what is occurring worldwide pales in comparison to Te commitment is a 40 percent reduction in greenhouse what we have in store. gas emissions from 2007 levels by 2030, and I would like Te world’s leading climate scientists warned we only have to emphasize that this is not a target that we can aford a dozen years to keep global warming to a maximum of 1.5 to miss. As highlighted by the Intergovernmental Panel on degrees Celsius, beyond which, even half a degree will sig- Climate Change report released a few weeks ago, without nifcantly worsen the risks of drought, foods, extreme heat urgent action on this fle, the consequences will be life- and poverty for hundreds of millions of people. So it is hard threatening. to trust that we’ll be okay in the face of such dire warnings, For that reason, I am pleased to see that this legislation when our legislation allows climate targets to be comprom- is consistent with the commitments made earlier this year, ised as long as the minister considers them frst. Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6389

I know that one environmental assessment act can’t save the minister will have the power to order a project assess- the world single-handedly, no matter how strong it is, but it ment to be paused, pending the outcome of a regional or needs to be sharp, and it needs to do its part. We need to strategic assessment or other investigation or inquiry. Tat ensure it is structured in a way that will support bold cli- said, I am concerned there is no language in this bill that mate action in the years ahead. I’d also like to note that as a would serve as triggers for when regional or strategic assess- policy-taker, not a policy-maker, the environmental assess- ment should occur. ment ofce will work to ensure proponents follow other cli- I’m also concerned that I do not see any mechanisms in mate laws and regulations. Our caucus has been working this bill that would allow the public to request regional or with government over the last year to improve those policies strategic assessments. I think that would be a valuable addi- as well. I’m hopeful they will further strengthen this new tion, as ofen it is the local community who has the best environmental assessment process and vice versa. understanding of everything going on in their area and the I’ve also been working a lot on land use and land man- cumulative impact that may be having. Much like the climate agement issues this year. Many, if not most of them, come test, the outcomes of a regional or a strategic assessment down to the need to be able to evaluate the big picture of would not be binding in a project environmental assessment. what is happening in B.C. Like the age-old tragedy of the Overall, I think the ability to conduct comprehensive commons, in a shared-resource system, if individual users regional assessments is a really promising addition. We’re act independently according to their own self-interest, their part of the way there, but the work done in regulations will collective action will deplete or spoil the resource and have make or break it. An act is nothing without adequate sup- a negative impact on the common good of all users. If one porting regulations. We don’t have to look far to fnd an of us chops down a tree or dumps wastewater into a river, it example. may not be a big deal. But if we all do it, we’re in trouble. B.C.’s Water Sustainability Act is a great piece of legisla- As our population grows and development creeps across tion, but its empty regulations prevent it from fulflling its our province, it is government’s responsibility to keep a keen promise and purpose — to improve and protect water man- eye on the big picture. Government needs to be able to draw agement in our province. Te Polis water project at the Uni- the line when an area has reached its limit. Too many eco- versity of Victoria has highlighted the useful tools ofered by systems and wildlife populations in B.C. are being system- the Water Sustainability Act, but many of them have yet to atically managed to the brink of collapse. Clearly, govern- be realized. Tere remains a great deal of uncertainty around ment needs a better way to evaluate the cumulative impacts how the core water planning features will be utilized, and of multiple projects or developments. It is not good enough communities are falling through the cracks. for each actor to mitigate their own impact. To avoid a death For instance, and to provide some examples that were also by a thousand cuts, we need to be able to look at the whole impacted by professional reliance failures, in Peachland, res- picture and make decisions accordingly. With that in mind, I idents have seen boil-water advisories increase as impacts am keenly interested in the regional assessment potential in from industry have accumulated in their watershed. In the this legislation. Hullcar valley, groundwater monitoring was insufcient in [6:00 p.m.] detecting water quality concerns before it became a crisis. In We need an environmental assessment system that the small community of Ymir, residents are concerned about includes higher-level assessment and planning that address logging in their small, already-stressed watershed. Tey are big-picture regional and strategic issues up front, such as worried that forestry management decisions are not taking how to efectively manage cumulative impacts in a region into account impacts on other ecosystem factors. in order to establish management requirements that apply If the tools in the Water Sustainability Act had been to project assessments and provincial decisions. I appreciate adequately implemented for the beneft of communities in this is a very complex goal, but it is one worth working the two years since the legislation passed, these impacted towards. Te legislation in front of us does not fll in the British Columbians would have more tools, resources and details about how regional assessments can be incorporated, clarity in how they can go about protecting their local but it does include language that will enable that work to be watersheds. done over the next year. Regulations are important. Tey indicate how legislation Other positive aspects of Bill 51 include mandatory con- will manifest on the ground, and they give stakeholders the sideration in project assessment of consistency with relevant tools they need. Te Environmental Assessment Act before land use plans, including Indigenous land use plans. B.C. us today leaves many components up to regulations. For will be enabled to enter into agreements with other juris- that reason, I urge government to proceed thoughtfully and dictions, including Indigenous nations, regarding conduct- expediently with the necessary regulations. ing or implementing regional and strategic assessments and One of the key aspects of this new legislation is increased provisions that are included to allow Indigenous nations to capacity for public engagement, though I think it could be request a cooperation agreement or regional or strategic taken further. Te communities I just mentioned — Peach- assessment. land, Hullcar, Ymir — all organized to call attention to their Another promising development: in the new EA process, 6390 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 struggles with water management. Tis is an experience I Te legislation on the table today demonstrates a com- know well. mitment to doing better. It is a commitment that we abso- When the Shawnigan watershed was threatened by con- lutely must see through. To quote Grand Chief Stewart taminated soil, our community got involved. We wrote over Phillip: “Recognizing Indigenous governments, laws, jur- 300 letters to the statutory decision–maker. We sent hun- isdictions and decision-making is an essential part of dreds more to MLAs, ministers and the former Premier. We reconciliation, and the legislation today is a small step in collected over 15,000 signatures and presented them in the the right direction.” Legislature. We gathered 1,600 people on the lawn, calling I’m encouraged by the legislation before us today. For too attention to the issue at hand. long, mismanagement has compromised public trust, Indi- Over the past two decades, in the face of deteriorating genous rights and environmental health. For too long, pro- environmental protections and unravelling compliance jects have been approved with inadequate consideration for and enforcement measures, British Columbians have the long-lasting impacts they will have for ecosystems and mobilized. Letter-writing campaigns and protests began the people and animals who depend on them. the shif that led to the legislation before us today. People Today we have an opportunity to change how we make have a right to know about the projects that will impact decisions going forward. We have an opportunity to include them, and they have a right to give us, the project pro- the public in a transparent process and to adequately and ponents, their feedback. meaningfully collaborate with Indigenous people. Tere [6:05 p.m.] remains much work to be done to realize true reconciliation, I’m happy to note that under the new legislation, the pub- just as there are items that will need to be addressed in order lic will be engaged earlier in the assessment process. Tere for this legislation to adequately protect the environmental will also be more public engagement periods at diferent health of our province. steps along the way. Tis improved engagement and trans- Today, however, we see British Columbia shifing in the parency goes a long way towards rebuilding the trust that has direction of an accountable and an equitable environmental been lost in B.C. assessment process. Moving forward, I am hopeful that Brit- Trust is a net positive for professionals, public, govern- ish Columbians can begin to trust that the decisions made ment and industry alike. If we know that the decision-mak- in our province do indeed protect the economic, social and ing process has the best interest and key values of British ecological values that they hold dear. Columbians at heart, our industries will be more competitive and our province healthier as a whole. I will be canvassing D. Barnett: I rise today to speak to Bill 51, the environ- all of these sections in greater detail in committee stage to mental act, on behalf of the constituents of the great riding ensure they will fully accomplish our shared goal of restor- of the Cariboo-Chilcotin. My riding consists of over 44,000 ing and earning public trust. kilometres of land from Hagensborg in the West Chilcotin I’m also pleased to note the recognition of First Nations as to 76 Mile in the South Cariboo. Tere are ten First Nations key decision–makers in our province. Tis legislation expli- communities. citly ties in the principles of the United Nations declaration In 2014, the Supreme Court of Canada granted declar- on the rights of Indigenous peoples. It is the frst legislation ation of Aboriginal title to more than 1,700 square kilo- in British Columbia to do so. metres of land in the West Chilcotin. Te court also estab- Tis act states that one of the foundational purposes of lished what title means, including the right to benefts the environmental assessment ofce is to support reconcili- associated with the land and the right to use it, enjoy it and ation by recognizing the inherent jurisdiction of Indigenous proft from it. nations and their right to participate in decision-making. [6:10 p.m.] Te new environmental assessment enables Indigenous-led However, the court declared that title is not absolute, assessments and studies. It requires that the environmental meaning economic development can still proceed as long as assessment ofce seek consensus throughout the process. one of two conditions are met: economic development on Tis is signifcant. For a very long time, Indigenous land where title is established has the consent of the First peoples in B.C. have been denied jurisdiction over their Nation; failing that, the government must make the case that lands, their resources and even their children. Tis is still development is pressing and substantial and meet its fdu- ongoing. ciary duty to the Aboriginal group. We live in an era where Indigenous peoples continue In other words, the decision places a greater burden on to face systemic barriers. Many Indigenous communities governments to justify economic development on Aborigin- — the number has grown as of today — continue to lack al land. Te court also made it clear that provincial law still access to clean water. Te number of Indigenous children applies to land over which Aboriginal title has been declared, in care is at crisis levels. And as the Federal Court of subject to constitutional laws. Appeal recently emphasized, the consideration of Indigen- Te judgment was welcomed by all in the Cariboo-Chil- ous rights and perspectives in resource decisions has so far cotin — opportunity for First Nations, for economic devel- been inadequate at best. Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6391 opment on their title lands. It has, however, created much It amazes me that somebody that lives on a hill in Port uncertainty. Moody knows more about rural British Columbia resource Te previous government put together, in the Deni extraction partnerships and what is going on than the people accord with the Tsilhqot’in, to work together on issues that live there. important to First Nations moving forward. Access to private lands and long-term lease agreements for ranchers, Interjection. tourism operators, guide-outftters, trappers and residents [6:15 p.m.] need to be settled as soon as possible so all have certainty, and First Nations, the government and the citizens are D. Barnett: Mr. Speaker, the gentleman across the way striving to move this forward. here…. In the Cariboo-Chilcotin, a land use plan was announced by the B.C. government in 1994. Te land use plan stated: Deputy Speaker: Te member for Cariboo-Chilcotin has “Access to timber for forest industry; certainty for mining, the foor. ranching and tourism industries; conservation and recre- ation objectives for natural values; economic and social sta- D. Barnett: Tank you. bility; increased opportunities for growth in investment We do not have a monopoly on ideas, but we know our throughout the region.” environment. We know where we live, and we care about our In the region, there are two major municipalities, Willi- environment. Te frustration for those of us that live in rur- ams Lake and 100 Mile, with over 25 unincorporated com- al British Columbia is when all of the money from outside munities and small pockets of development throughout — the States, foreign money — which those across the way the region. talk about continuously, come in to lobby to stop economic Resource extraction has been the economic engine of the development. We have seen it all too ofen, believe you me, Cariboo-Chilcotin. Pine beetle in the 1990s, not mitigated in the Cariboo-Chilcotin. by government of the day, started in Tweedsmuir and Christ- When the project that the speaker from Port Moody was mas parks, class A parks in the region. Forest fres over the talking about…. A woman in the Chilcotin got an environ- past few years — in particular, 2004, 2010, 2017 and 2018 — mental award and a big cheque from an American envir- have taken a greater toll on our forest resource. onmental organization for helping to lobby to stop an eco- Tere are opportunities throughout the region. Mining in nomic project. Tis bill opens the door to more of that, in this rich area of minerals will hopefully become a reality, my opinion. putting First Nation communities out of poverty and keep- It scares me to think that British Columbia will continue ing communities who need new development in work. to be lobbied against any type of resource extraction devel- Te parts of this bill that concern me are time frames, opment, as safe as it is. Tere are more rules, there are more more bureaucracy, no regulations, no local input, one com- regulations, and there are more time frames that have mittee afer another, outside interests. Te government has stopped projects in rural British Columbia by outside lobby- in the last couple of months put taxation on business and ists. I would hope that…. industry — health care tax, carbon tax, speculation tax, a When we get to the committee stage, I am sure that we professional reliance bill. will have many, many questions to ask the minister about Tis bill, the way it is written, only adds to costs for any- this particular bill. Mr. Speaker, thank you for the opportun- one looking to invest in British Columbia. Outside lobbyists, ity, and I will pass the foor to the next speaker. activists, have stopped more economic development in B.C., and this bill gives them a free map to stop everything. S. Gibson: It’s a pleasure to rise in this House on behalf Te member from Port Moody spoke earlier this evening of my constituents of the beautiful Abbotsford-Mission about Fish Lake in the Chilcotin. I live in the Cariboo-Chil- riding, about an hour east of Vancouver in a bucolic agri- cotin. I have been throughout my whole beautiful riding. I cultural area. have been to Fish Lake, and I have not seen a fsh. I have I think, in particular, I want to address the general themes been there when there has been…. that I have discerned as I’ve had the opportunity to review the act, and maybe take a step back for a moment and just Interjection. talk about the vitality of our province, why we as MLAs are really here to boost the economic viability of our province. D. Barnett: Tere are two Fish Lakes in the Cariboo-Chil- We’re prosperous here. People are coming to our province. cotin. One gets great fsh, and one has no fsh. Tey aspire to live here. For those of us who have lived in I also get very frustrated when I see economic opportun- other provinces…. I had the privilege, I think you might say, ities…. I see communities, First Nations. I have, for the last of living in Ottawa for some time, going to university, and 30 years, worked very closely with many of my First Nations suddenly realizing the magnifcence of our province in con- communities on many projects. I have been out with them trast to Ottawa, which has cold winters, much like Peace in places that most people don’t know exist. 6392 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

River North and Peace River South. But they’re good com- government, pay attention. When you hear the message munities as well. from our members from the Peace River country, pay atten- tion. Kamloops. Tey speak with authority. Tey speak from Interjection. the heart. Looking at this legislation, we begin to worry. Is this gov- S. Gibson: My colleague is afrming that. ernment really sensitive to the issues of the rural area? And It’s a privilege to be here and represent the interests of my ironically, this legislation applies to the rural area. It applies. constituents. We’re doing so much in this province. We have It has deep application. seen so much development. Yet in the last few months, as Now, one of the exciting things that I believe with eco- this government matures, we suddenly realize that this side nomic development is that it spreads far and wide. In my of the House uniquely is empowered to stand up for the eco- community, there are people who live in the Abbotsford- nomic development of our province. Unfortunately, the gov- Mission riding who commute to rural areas to work in the ernment has lost sight of that, not realizing that if you don’t mines and the logging camps. I’ve got an individual in my have a vital economy, you don’t have the resources to sup- area that actually commutes to Fort McMurray. He com- port all of the social services which are being embraced and mutes up to Fort Mac all the time. Tat’s quite a commute. advanced by the government. Te reason is the economic viability. In the case of the Environmental Assessment Act, I worry One of the things that we know — it was actually chilling that the interests of the environment, as important as they when I frst heard about this — is the amount of money are, are really making it impossible to develop in our streaming into our province from the U.S.A. to discourage province. economic development. When I frst heard about it, I was a I want to acknowledge the good words of the hon. mem- little suspicious. I thought: “Well, this is a bit of a conspiracy ber for Skeena. As an Aboriginal chief, he has the right, I theory.” It is not; it’s true. Tere are hundreds of thousands, believe, to speak with authority about these issues. I was par- maybe even millions, of dollars coming into our province to ticularly impressed as I refected on the remarks he made discourage economic development. Shocking. Does this act some moments ago here in this Legislature. acknowledge that? I don’t think so. [6:20 p.m.] When we were government, we really worked at trying to I’m always impressed with his comments regarding how work with our First Nations friends. Tat’s why the num- to get First Nations people out of poverty. We know that our ber one goal of our government was to build prosperity First Nations friends struggle a little more than some other throughout the province, especially in those areas that were folks in our society. It’s all about economic viability. hard hit. We’ve had the fres. We’ve had the pine beetle and We’ve heard the member for Skeena here a number of others. It’s a tragedy in many parts of our rural areas. Some times emotionally calling out to government: “Please don’t of our communities are actually going down in population. throw roadblocks in economic development.” LNG is com- Te particular emphasis on the Environmental Assess- ing. Site C is progressing well. Hundreds of thousands of our ment Act is working with our Aboriginal people. I think, First Nations friends are going to beneft. But his analysis as I mentioned earlier, our MLA for Skeena is truly an leads me to believe that he has some veracity in the remarks ambassador for that community, truly an ambassador for he makes regarding the challenges of the Environmental economic vitality. Assessment Act. [6:25 p.m.] Te question that I always ask myself as I see government We’ve worked on many fnal agreements. In fact, our min- getting into many acts around this House and presenting ister at the time, who’s now the member for Nechako Lakes. them here is: what does it do for the fnancial viability and Tey worked with our minister at the time and signed more health of our province? In most cases, the answer is: nothing. than 500 economic and reconciliation agreements. Fantastic You’re trying to equalize the fnancial load. I get that — news. How’s the government working with that? I haven’t the kind of Robin Hood philosophy which has some allure, I heard. Tis side of the House was committed to that. suppose, for our government. But in the case of the Environ- Pursuing LNG. We received a very ambivalent message mental Assessment Act, Bill 51, I don’t see any acknowledge- from this government. One person would say: “Yeah, we ment of that. I don’t see any acknowledgement of the neces- kind of like LNG.” And then another MLA was quoted as sity to make a vibrant economy, especially in our northern saying: “We don’t want LNG.” It was a very strange kind of communities. message. It was almost bipolar, in a way. We didn’t quite We are, on this side of the House, in many ways, the rural know what was going on. conscience of the province. Well, now the Premier has apparently embraced LNG. Isn’t that right, hon. Member. Way to go. It’s exciting to see that. Unfortunately, there was Te rural conscience of our province. Over on that side quite a bit of ambivalence over there. It’s always kind of sad of the House, it’s dominated by the urban presence. Nothing to see that. But once in a while, the choir will get together wrong with that, but this government needs to pay attention. and sing together in harmony. Tat’s kind of nice to hear When you hear the member from Chilcotin speaking, Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6393 over here. It’s exciting to see this government becoming pro- the public, we go back to the era of polarization. Tis legisla- gressive. tion takes us beyond that once again. Site C is moving ahead. Tis government…. Boy, we didn’t I just want to talk, too, about the idea that this is going to know what was going on there. Site C was a bit sketchy there slow down development approvals. Tere was a coal devel- for a while. Of course, it’s clean energy. Finally, they adopted opment that was proposed in what used to be the riding it, so we’re encouraged. that’s now Mid Island–Pacifc Rim. It wasn’t just the pro- Tis government is moving fairly…. It’s a bit wobbly, and ponent who had to spend years in the process. It was also I think the public understands that. But I think they do cut the community that was struggling to make sure that their this government quite a bit of slack, because they’re fairly concerns were heard and that action was taken — the con- new at it, and we get that. cerns about runof from the coal mine impacting the shell- Te Environmental Assessment Act, by all accounts, is fsh growers in Baynes Sound, the impact to water for small going to slow down the process of getting economic devel- communities in the area. Te result was hundreds of condi- opment done — a lot more red tape, a lot more layers. Tis tions on the approval, and that project never happened. new individual, the commissioner, has more powers, by all Tis bill remedies that by talking about early involvement, accounts. We’re worried over here that this is going to stife providing supports to people who have an interest and development and really not be in the best interest of our parties that have an interest and giving some direction to citizens. proponents so that they know what they have to deal with. I think that it parallels, if I may, some of the discussion And when all parties are involved, then you will move things that’s going on regarding proportional representation. We’ve along, or else they’ll stop because it really isn’t feasible, and just seen closure with the recall. Tere are a lot of things people will not waste their time or resources. I think that’s going on with this government that are troubling for the one of the gems of this bill — that it serves all parties. public. As we go into committee with this and fnd out much I also want to make mention of the fact that this is operat- more about this through asking questions of real scrutiny, ing in tandem with other pieces of legislation that are really I believe that the track record that this government has going to inspire more confdence — when we’re talking demonstrated is going to be revealed, very much so, in this about professional reliance and having a system where legislation. people can have confdence in the technical aspects of it, and Now, we don’t really know much more than the legisla- as solutions are brought forward as projects are developed, tion, the bill. But we’re going to have to wait and see with all that there is that opportunity for confdence to grow. the regulations that are a part of it. Tat’s where — I hate to Te fact that there’s going to be support from the environ- use that cliché — the proof is in the pudding. I don’t want to mental assessment for that public participation is huge. It’s use that one again, but I did. Tat’s when we’re going to fnd huge, as people who, on the ground, have real concerns — out what’s really in here, right? to be able to have somewhere to turn and not empty their I’m troubled by this. I think that the government is throw- bank accounts to try and fght big industry. We don’t need to ing more roadblocks in front of quality development, fght big industry. We need to work together. Tis is the great employment opportunities in our rural areas. I’m looking opportunity that we do have for all parties to move togeth- forward to hearing more of the remarks from our opposition er and create opportunities with our natural resources but members here, who continue to be troubled by the implic- also to deal not only with the specifcs around environment- ations of Bill 51, the Environmental Assessment Act. Tank al concerns, but to look at the whole issue of sustainability, you for allowing me to speak to it on behalf of my constitu- to go beyond the micro and look at the macro. I think that ents of the Abbotsford-Mission riding. that’s another really valuable part of this bill. I want to make one comment about the First Nations — to R. Leonard: I’m excited to be here tonight to express legislate the opportunity that we have committed to in terms my support for Bill 51. I’ve worked for many decades as of reconciliation and implementing the UN declaration on an environmental contractor, specifcally working with local the rights of Indigenous peoples. It is more than a statement. groups that had concerns around the environment, and It is a path forward. Wherever there are opportunities for us always with the intent to make things better. to end confict and build bridges rather than walls, I think I can say that over those decades, the expression that I that we are moving in the right direction. heard over and over again both federally and provincially Tat’s all I wanted to say. I just wanted to acknowledge was “death by a thousand cuts.” Little changes that weren’t all the work that communities have done over the last few enough to rile up the people, but as they accumulated, there decades that I’ve been around, working on environmental was a big impact. causes, and wish everybody well, because I’m sure that there [6:30 p.m.] will be strong support for this legislation. Today I’m very pleased to see that we are going to roll that back and reintroduce stronger legislation that will inspire the T. Shypitka: Tank you to my compadre from Abbots- confdence of the public. If we don’t have the confdence of ford-Mission for his great little speech there. I appreciate it. It gives me great pride to speak to Bill 51, the Environ- 6394 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 mental Assessment Act, on behalf of the southeast corner of us pipelining oil from wellhead to tidewater. Tis will bring our province, the gateway from the U.S.A., the gateway from prosperity for all. Partnerships and conduct of business are Alberta and the home of the hard-working and fun-loving self-evolving. Whether it is government-to-government people of Kootenay East. relations or partnerships with stakeholders and industry, British Columbia is a rich and prosperous province. Like they all evolve in real time. Partnerships don’t happen the people of Kootenay East, all of us in British Columbia are because you are told to do so; they happen because of a some of the most talented and hard-working in the world. mutual understanding and shared benefts. [6:35 p.m.] Tis is important, because I’ll go to the member for Port Tey go to work every day to build better futures for their Moody–Coquitlam, who earlier stood on his podium there families, for their communities and for their province. So and read from his speech that there was a lack of environ- many of those hard-working British Columbians, whether mental assessment in my region on the elevated selenium they are working on our coastal forests, our northern gas levels. I imagine he was talking about the Elk River or the felds or in downtown Vancouver ofces, are working to Fording River; I’m not sure. I’m not sure if he even under- make the most from our bounty of natural resources and stands where that part of the world is. their responsible development. I’m not even sure if he understands the diference We are resource-rich, like I said, in this great province, between metallurgical coal and thermal coal or if he and it is important that we move forward to develop natural understands some of the disruptive technologies that Teck resources for the beneft of B.C. families and that we do it Coal brings to our region. I don’t know. I’m not sure if in a way that protects the environment and in a way that he understands what smart shovel technology is or what ensures increased Indigenous involvement and shared sensor mining is all about. I’m not sure if he understands decision-making. any of that. He just threw a catchphrase out there that’s As I said, I’m from Kootenay East. In my riding, we have supposed to alarm people. fve of the six top mines in the province — all metallurgical Tese are some of the companies that are very responsible coal. I’ll get to that in a second. It’s a very industrious area corporate citizens. Tey bring a lot of stuf to the game, to that I live in, but it’s also a very recreational part of the world the table. I’m just going to try to…. I’ll read a couple of them that we live in. We have some of the best recreation, 365 days of here for you — things like sensored blast monitoring, 3D a year, everything from hiking to swimming, fshing and laser mapping, virtual reality. Tese are all disruptive tech- hunting — all those kinds of beautiful things that we enjoy. nologies that we’re bringing forward. It comes on the back Te industry brings us there, but it’s our outdoor recreation of the technology sector. Te technology sector is one of the that keeps us there. fastest-growing sectors in the province. It comes of the back We’ve found a balance in our region. We’ve found a bal- of good natural resource companies such as Teck Coal. ance, in Kootenay East, on how to incorporate mining and [6:40 p.m.] forestry. Te railway is a big part of our area as well. We’ve been able to incorporate that in a good balance between the Interjections. environment and the economy. We believe this because it’s the right thing to do. We believe this because we have the Deputy Speaker: Members. prosperous First Nations and prosperous British Columbi- ans. We believe in opportunity for all of B.C. because we T. Shypitka: Te Green leader here is applauding the know that opportunity leads to prosperity, and prosperity resource sector over there. Obviously, he must be applaud- builds better lives for people, their families and their com- ing. He supported Site C. He supported LNG. He’s support- munities. ing all of these great industries that we’re bringing forward. When we were on that other side of the House, we And it comes from the technology sector. delivered on that vision year afer year, in partnerships with Te technology sector is feeding of of Teck Coal and First Nations. To get together, we completed fnal agreements places like that. So when you speak to irresponsibility, I cer- with several First Nations. We put our goals of shared tainly hope you’re not pointing it where I think that you’re prosperity into action with more than 500 economic and pointing it. And yes, they are putting money towards water reconciliation agreements with First Nations. We recognized treatment — reducing selenium issues. So $900 million, in the opportunities that could be shared by all people of B.C., fact, going towards it. and we were relentless in pursuing LNG as an opportunity Not only that, but once these problems are rectifed, once for First Nations, the north and our province to own the you have responsible corporate citizens that actually weigh future and to build better lives. in and do the responsible thing, like companies like Teck We’re glad that side of the House has come to recognize Coal do, that goes throughout the world. Other jurisdictions our accomplishments. We’re happy, in fact, that they have around the world pick up on this technology. We make this adopted so many of those accomplishments that we on this world a better place. And this is all because of self-evolving, side all started, like Site C and LNG. Hopefully, this will this all-self-evolving system that we do. continue with partnerships and prosperity that will bring Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6395

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Mr. Speaker: Sorry, Member. It’s not clear which bill you’re speaking to here. Just had to break away from that because I thought that it needed to be addressed. I’m pretty sensitive to this. Tese T. Shypitka: I’m speaking to the inconsistencies of this companies do a lot for the environment, and to allude to the government and of this bill that’s coming forward to us. It fact that they are not is really disturbing to me. It’s insulting, speaks to that — Bill 51. as a matter of fact. So here we are, with the NDP claiming this bill will deliver It is important to this House to clean up some of our legis- a clear and timely path for decisions. Tis bill lives up to the lation from time to time and move them forward so that it NDP track record of aiming to do the exact opposite of what is more refective of the current landscape — cultural, social, they’re claiming. demographical, economical. We need to do some house- First and foremost, this so-called clear path leaves much keeping with our acts, with the acts that we have. I’m not of the process yet to be determined by regulation. So that opposed to redefning a few things here and there, but clear path is yet to be mapped. And worse, it stands in the aspects of the Environmental Assessment Act that we’re way of creating good family-paying jobs, and the backers looking at right now are troubling. of projects struggle to fnd the certainty they need about the assessment process. Interjection. It is becoming a pattern in this government. Power is being swept into the minister’s ofce, creating more job- T. Shypitka: Well, rather than bringing clarity, for one, killing uncertainty. it looks like this bill is heading the opposite direction. It In my short time as the opposition critic for Energy and appears to add new burdens, new red tape, more process Mines, I have done a lot of listening to the industry that I and new uncertainty that chokes out opportunity and hurts represent. I’ve also laid out the opportunities that we have working families. here in British Columbia. Tere is no secret. What I have Once again, we have the government promising one thing heard from the industry that has built our economy…. Tese and delivering the opposite. We are see a recurring trend industries built our economies. here. Tey promise more democracy through proportional [6:45 p.m.] representation, but in reality, they deliver a process that When I walk down the hallowed halls of the Legislature makes political parties the key decision-makers in the elec- here…. We all see them every day. We see the four pillars of tions and not the voters. our economy, the foundation of our economy: farming, fsh- Members that sit in this House that come of party lists ing, agriculture and, of course, mining. And through listen- are indebted to the party that appointed them and not to the ing to some of these industry folk, I have established — and constituents they serve. I may not represent 100 percent of I think that the members over here have established — the the political persuasion in my riding, but my door is cer- seven Cs. I call them the seven Cs of bringing good industry tainly open to 100 percent of the constituents in the riding. I to the table, and those seven Cs are consistency, clarity, cer- don’t ask for a voting card, and I accommodate 100 percent tainty, consultation, competitiveness and, of course, cash. as well. If you don’t like me, you get rid of me. I think that’s You always need the money. We always need some funding, the most transparent thing. And members on the other side some money. Tat’s six. I’ll get to the seventh one later. may want that, but it’s not up to them. It’s up to my constitu- Te minister and the chief environmental assessment ents. My constituents will do that. If I come of a party list, I ofcer will be handed sweeping new powers to conduct won’t be responsible to them. I’ll be responsible to the party reviews, audits, impose massive fnes and introduce amend- that gave me that list. ments to awarded environmental assessment permits. We have also seen this inconsistency through ramming Let me be clear again. We support increased Indigenous through Bill 53, on changing the rules on recall. Tey claim involvement and shared decision-making. Tis is para- that it’s improving democracy, but instead they limited cit- mount. We’ve done this, and we’d like to see it go forward, izens’ rights to launch recalls. Limit the dollar amount you but we have to move forward to have this done. We’ve done can use for a recall when there has never been a successful some of the heavy lifing already, so we’d like to see some recall ever since the NDP brought the recall almost 25 years more of this for sure. ago. Limit the applications issued in a recall so that, essen- Tere are even more problems in this legislation — risk tially, someone could block a genuine application from a…. delaying decisions, lengthening timelines and putting responsible resource developments and all of the family- Mr. Speaker: Member. Member. and community-supporting economic benefts at risk. Tis speaks to clarity. I mentioned the six Cs. Clarity is being T. Shypitka: Tis stunt was performed just days before addressed with that one. recall…. Te legislation fails to specify timelines to fnish Indigen- ous dispute resolutions and the time required to seek con- sensus and reach consent. Tere are no limits tied to the 6396 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 many avenues provided for the minister or the chief environ- reported complete with amendments, to be considered at mental assessment ofcer to extend timelines. Tat involves the next sitting of the House afer today. consultation, part of the six Cs. Te environmental assessment readiness decision process Hon. M. Farnworth moved adjournment of the House. and the application development and review process are undefned in terms of timelines. Tat speaks to certainty. Motion approved. Finally, there are no specifc time requirements for pro- ponents to develop their initial project decisions. Tis is con- Mr. Speaker: Tis House stands adjourned until 10 a.m. sistency. tomorrow morning. Taken as a whole, we see lots of extra time being needed with this process and next to nothing done to streamline Te House adjourned at 6:50 p.m. the process for getting responsible resource projects built. It appears that this government is yet again aiming to throw up roadblocks to responsible resource development. It is the Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room hard-working families of this province and the communities of rural B.C. that are going to sufer for the government’s Committee of the Whole House ideological war on resources. I spoke to the six Cs. I talked to certainty and clarity and BILL 41 — ADVANCED EDUCATION consistency and consultation, cash. Tere’s no cash in this STATUTE REPEAL ACT bill, but that’ll be addressed at another time. All of these Cs that I’ve mentioned — consultation, consistency, clarity, cer- Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section A) on tainty, cash — lead to one other thing. Tat’s the seventh Bill 41; D. Routley in the chair. C, and that’s confdence. With these processes, with this bill that’s in front of us right now…. It undermines confdence. Te committee met at 2:37 p.m. Because all the other Cs that I’ve talked about aren’t being addressed and are actually being stalled. Section 1 approved. Ten, actually, afer reading the 48 pages of this bill — it’s lengthy — it brings up a couple more C words, and those On section 2. are confusion and consensus. So we’ll need to rid confusion over the defnition of consensus, which is not in this bill S. Gibson: I just want to make a statement, if that’s appro- at all. Consensus is a pretty broad word, and it’s not being priate, for the record. Tis matter was already dealt with by addressed here at all. the courts, and we will not oppose it. Tat’s my statement Tis bill, in my opinion, is going to hurt families in every here today, hon. Chair. part of the province, which is why we’ll fght to fx this in the committee stage. Te Chair: Tank you, Member. Noting the hour, I adjourn debate…. A. Weaver: I was just wondering if I could ask the min- Interjections. ister…. Te member just mentioned court rulings that decided this. Could the minister please describe to me what T. Shypitka: I reserve my right to speak. court rulings occurred that led to this and what it was that the previous member was referring to? Mr. Speaker: Member, if I heard you correctly, you’re [2:40 p.m.] reserving the right to speak later and adjourning debate. Hon. M. Mark: Tank you for the question from the T. Shypitka: Yes. member opposite. In 2011, the Supreme Court of British Columbia struck down part 2 of Bill 28, stating that it was T. Shypitka moved adjournment of debate. unconstitutional. For context — and again, thank you for the question — following constitutional challenges by the Motion approved. B.C. Teachers Federation, provisions in part 2 of the act that related to the K-to-12 sector were found, as I mentioned, Reporting of Bills unconstitutional. In the process, the BCTF was awarded $2 million in damages, and in 2016, government was tasked BILL 48 — TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER with restoring the 2002 collective agreement. PROTECTION ACT Te only remaining provisions relating to the K-to-12 sec- tor are those which enabled amendments to other statutes. Bill 48, Temporary Foreign Worker Protection Act, Tese are spent and commencement provisions for amend- Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6397

ments made to the School Act and the Public Education operations from the ten-year plan. I’m assuming that’s the Labour Relations Act. Nearly all of the amendments to the $71 million that the minister has just referenced under park- School Act and the Public Education Labour Relations Act ing rights revenue. I notice that it goes up by about $5 mil- brought in by the act and relating to the K-to-12 sector have lion for 2019 and then about $10 million per year thereafer. been repealed or were not to be brought into force. So we are I’m assuming that’s because it doesn’t kick in until the mid- correcting old wrongs. point of next year. Is that correct, Minister?

Sections 2 and 3 approved. Hon. S. Robinson: Tat’s accurate. It doesn’t kick in until July. Title approved. T. Stone: I’m just wondering if the minister could share Hon. M. Mark: I move that the committee rise and report with the committee if she’s aware of what this parking rights the bill complete without amendment. revenue, over the balance of the ten-year plan, is projected [2:45 p.m.] to…. Tat’s assuming this increase does go ahead, and it will. Te government has a majority. Total revenue that will be Motion approved unanimously on a division. [See Votes raised is about $854 million over the total ten-year period and Proceedings.] from this parking rights revenue line item. Tat’s inclusive of this proposed increase. I’m just wondering if the minister Te committee rose at 2:48 p.m. could advise the committee if there are any specifc expenditures, projects, within the ten-year plan that this Committee of the Whole House parking revenue is used to fund?

BILL 46 — SOUTH COAST BRITISH Hon. S. Robinson: TransLink consolidates the revenues COLUMBIA TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY and uses that to deliver the service. AMENDMENT ACT (No. 2), 2018 T. Stone: I’m wondering if the minister could please Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section A) on advise if…. I’m sure she’s had conversations with TransLink Bill 46; D. Routley in the chair. about this funding request. I’m just wondering if she could advise the committee if any other sources of revenue were Te committee met at 3:02 p.m. considered, aside from this parking tax increase. Were any other forms of revenue generation considered and dis- On section 1. cussed? Or is this the one specifc revenue source — in addi- tion to a potential fuel tax…? I suppose a fuel tax increase Hon. S. Robinson: I’d like to introduce the following staf, might be coming still. who are here to help us make our way through this bill and I’m just wondering if she could fll us in a bit on the get me to my lunch. I’d like to introduce Kevin Volk, the nature of her conversations with TransLink with respect assistant deputy minister, community and legislative services to this revenue source and other potential revenue sources division, and Jodi Dong, executive director, community that may have been discussed with TransLink and the policy and legislation branch. Mayors Council.

T. Stone: I know the minister would like to get to her Hon. S. Robinson: I know the member is well aware of lunch, so we’ll make this fairly quick and, I think, fairly pain- the importance of making sure that the region could come less today. I have a number of questions with respect to sec- up with its share of this signifcant transit investment for the tion 1. First of, I’m just wondering if the minister could region, for the people that live and work in the Lower Main- advise how much tax is generated at the current rate, the cur- land and also for goods movement, and how critical it is rent parking tax rate, which is at 21 percent. How much rev- to make sure we have this transit infrastructure investment enue is currently being generated? made, especially given how far behind we are as a region. [3:05 p.m.] We worked with the mayors and with TransLink to identi- fy a number of ways to generate the revenue needed from the Hon. S. Robinson: I appreciate the patience of the com- region. A lot of exploring and conversation did happen. mittee. Tere are a number of diferent places where the revenue For 2018, it generated $21 million. Sorry, $71 million. My is being generated to meet the regional share, and that writing is even being afected by my lack of calories. Tis includes property taxes, DCC, increase in transit fares and change will increase that by another $10 million a year. potentially a fuel tax, as well as this parking right increase. [3:10 p.m.] T. Stone: I’m looking at the consolidated statement of 6398 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

T. Stone: Tank you, Minister. I’m just wondering if the small businesses and small business organizations, partic- minister could provide her views on potential subsequent ularly in downtown Vancouver, that are very concerned requests from TransLink or the Mayors Council for addi- about the costs of being able to actually visit downtown tional increases to the parking tax revenue. We’re talking Vancouver to shop and go to a restaurant or go to a hockey about almost $900 million over a ten-year plan that’s gener- game or whatever it might be, that this represents yet ated from this revenue stream. another cost in doing that and that it could have an impact While I don’t see anything in the legislation that allows on their businesses. for a parking tax increase beyond moving it to the 24 per- [3:15 p.m.] cent, I’m just wondering what’s stopping TransLink and the Te Downtown Vancouver Business Improvement Asso- Mayors Council from coming back to government and ask- ciation CEO, Charles Gauthier, said: “What we’re sensitive ing for yet a further increase down the road? Could the min- to is whether it’s going to impact people’s discretionary visits ister share some thoughts on how such a request would be to downtown. We were under the impression that it was viewed by her and the government? capped at 21 percent. We’re concerned about how ofen this will occur.” In “how ofen this will occur,” he’s referring to Hon. S. Robinson: I know that the member full well the potential for future increases in parking tax revenue. knows that this was put together in response to a very spe- Because when it was increased to 21 percent — which in and cifc request from the Mayors Council. I’m not going to of itself is generating about $700 million over the next ten comment on what might, can or can’t happen. I can’t pre- years — it’s now going to generate another $80 million to $90 dict the future. million over that period. Tat’s all coming out of the pockets of people that are parking in these downtown corridors. T. Stone: Fair enough. I do remember being in the role. I’m wondering if the minister shares the concerns that I’ve Te ability to expand transit in the Lower Mainland, expressed here and that Mr. Gauthier has expressed here. If which is a goal I think we all share, always comes back down she could comment on that, it would be much appreciated. to the funding and, in particular, the operating dollars to make those expansions possible on a sustainable, go-forward Hon. S. Robinson: First, I think it’s really important to basis. Again, I’m just trying to understand if, in the minister’s remember that these amendments are being made at the mind, this is a one-time request to fulfl the current priorities request of the Mayors Council — I think that’s really import- of the ten-year plan, even if there end up being some changes ant to note — and that TransLink did conduct extensive con- to that plan that might result in increasing costs. Presumably, sultations with the public and stakeholders on their phase 2 the Mayors Council and TransLink would have to go looking investment plan, which is required by them. It also includes for sources of additional net new revenue if that were to be the regional revenue sources. Tey met with industry associ- the case. ations and others, including the Downtown Vancouver Busi- I think there are a lot of folks in Vancouver and other ness Improvement Association. Metro communities and small businesses that would like to I, too, have a quote here that I’d like to read into the have a general sense of the minister’s mindset on this, and record from the Downtown Vancouver Business Improve- the government’s mindset on this, should the Mayors Coun- ment Association CEO, Charles Gauthier, who said: “We cil and TransLink come forward again looking for an even understand that they have to fund transit, and certainly more signifcant increase in parking tax revenue. Again, I’m every mode of transportation needs to be paying that, and just wondering if the minister could provide some additional we haven’t had an increase since 2010. So we’re going to put thoughts on how such a request would likely be viewed by that in perspective.” government. He also has noted signifcant improvements in SkyTrain, Canada Line and night bus services to the downtown core, Hon. S. Robinson: I appreciate the member’s question. which makes it easier for people to access service. So I do Again, I want to remind him that any sort of change to the think that there’s an appreciation that with increased invest- plan needs to be done in consultation with a whole range of ment in transit, it actually has real benefts for businesses in stakeholders and that this work and this request that came the downtown core. from the Mayors Council was done afer a signifcant amount of time and a signifcant amount of consultation and T. Stone: I appreciate that. It would seem we have the brought forward as a whole investment plan. Tat’s what this same letter from Mr. Gauthier, so he’s obviously covered all bill is responding to. his bases. Smart man. To the minister’s previous comment, I do understand T. Stone: I’d like to just pursue a couple of questions relat- that the request for an increase in the parking tax rate ing to the impact that this parking tax increase will have, to 24 percent is in the basket of funding sources that the or is expected to have, on small businesses. I know that the Mayors Council has requested. Tat doesn’t mean that the minister has a sof spot in her heart for small business. province has to adhere to that request. It doesn’t mean that In the opposition, we’ve heard from quite a number of at all. Te government can say no, if looking through the Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6399

lens of the taxpayer or drivers or businesses in these down- ors’ plan are the rapid transit projects — specifcally, on the town corridors. Broadway corridor and the Surrey LRT project. I’m wondering if the minister…. Obviously, this was in the I’m wondering if the minister can share with the com- basket of requests from TransLink and the Mayors Coun- mittee what the current project cost estimates are for the cil. Notwithstanding that, did she have any discussion with two respective rapid transit projects, Broadway and the or consultation with small businesses or organizations like Surrey LRT? the Downtown Vancouver Business Improvement Associ- ation as a check to make sure that government understands Hon. S. Robinson: Te Broadway extension is $2.83 bil- fully, from those that might be negatively impacted by this lion. And Surrey LRT is $1.65 billion. tax increase, how they feel about it and what those impacts could be? T. Stone: We do know that very recently, literally days ago, Did the minister have any discussions, consultations, the new city council in Surrey, on Monday, voted to revoke engagement with small businesses or those small business their support for the LRT project that, as the minister men- organizations that we’ve referenced? tioned, has a current project estimate of $1.65 billion. I’m wondering if the minister could advise a couple of things. Hon. S. Robinson: Tat’s the exact work that TransLink One, has she directed her staf, in working with TransLink undertook. Tey did exactly as the member suggests. and the Mayors Council, to get back to the drawing board in I also want to point out that in this basket of revenue-gen- terms of what this decision of Surrey really means in terms erating tools, of which this is one, the framework for looking of the business plan — updating that business plan? at how the region is going to pay for their share meant that Secondly, the new mayor of Surrey has said that he doesn’t everyone in the region, in some capacity, would contribute believe the city of Surrey should be responsible for any can- to the overall regional share of this investment — the signi- cellation fees and so forth. I’d be curious to know — and I fcant investment that really, at the end of the day, is about don’t know if it’s 80 million or so of sunk dollars, dollars that freeing people up to get home to their families much more have been expended to this point — if there will be an efort quickly, reduce GHG emissions and address congestion. on the part of government and TransLink to extract those [3:20 p.m.] dollars from the city of Surrey. Between the property tax — a small increase there — a [3:25 p.m.] small DCC, a small increase in transit fares and this other And three, the new mayor in Surrey has indicated that tool…. Again, this is about everyone contributing just a little his belief — and he says it very forcefully — is that simply bit so that we could make this very important investment. switching out the LRT plan for his desired plan of It’s the biggest investment in transit infrastructure in this SkyTrain can all be done within the current budget envel- province’s history. Tat really is about delivering not just ope of $1.65 billion. more rail but, also, nearly one million hours of bus service, Tere’s a three-part question for you, Minister. increasing the handyDART service, upgrades to SkyTrain cars and to platforms that are in sore need of either expan- Hon. S. Robinson: Tis is all very new, and I think the sion or repair. So all of these various pieces are about the member mentioned Monday. At this point, the Mayors whole vision and a much-needed investment in transit infra- Council is, I believe, meeting next week. Tis is the mayors’ structure in the region. vision that comes out of the Mayors Council that directs these sorts of investments. Te investment plan is voted on Te Chair: On section 1. and supported by the mayors of the region. Tis change in direction will be going back to the Mayors Council, and I T. Stone: On section 1, yes. It’s an interesting piece of look forward to hearing the kinds of questions that they ask legislation. It really only has one section. Te rest are all kind and how they sort through this change in direction that we’re of bundled together. I have a few more questions on this sec- seeing from Surrey. tion 1, and then we’ll be done. I would like to take this opportunity to talk a bit about T. Stone: Can the minister indicate whether or not her the Mayors Council plan that, in part, this parking tax rev- staf are actively working with TransLink and the Mayors enue will be used to fund. Te minister, quite rightfully, just Council on revising that business plan? We’re talking billions pointed out the much-needed and the continued expansion of dollars here. Well, $1.65 billion, I guess, is not quite bil- of transit service, upgraded stations, expanded handyDART lions, but a billion and a half. I have to believe that there service. Tese were all the kinds of initiatives that were con- must be work going on, preliminary work, to look at what tained in phase 1, which I was proud to have been part of it would cost to swap out the technologies. Obviously, the securing funding for. Tere’s an even larger continuation of route would be a little bit diferent. Is such work taking place these investments contained in phase 2, which the minis- with the ministry, TransLink and the Mayors Council? ter is driving. Obviously, the signature projects in the may- Hon. S. Robinson: I do believe it would be premature 6400 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 to move on anything until the Mayors Council has had a technology, but I think there’s an open door there. Tere are chance to convene as a new body and to make some determ- a number of other municipalities that have expressed their inations around what next steps would be. intention to support Surrey. Tere are others on the other side that are saying: “Stick to the plan.” T. Stone: So am I to assume from the answer that it’s tools Tere is a lot of taxpayers’ money going into these pro- down until further notice insofar as work that the province jects, so I’m wondering if the minister has a view on this would have otherwise been doing in support of executing on request from Surrey to switch the technology from LRT to the business plan as it originally existed? SkyTrain. If she could provide some comments on that, I would appreciate it. Hon. S. Robinson: I can’t speak for TransLink. Tis is TransLink’s work. I don’t know what steps they have taken, Hon. S. Robinson: I think what we need to remember but we’re in touch with them about what it is that they’re here is that this is a mayor’s plan. Our government has rec- doing in response to this change in direction that’s been ognized the value of having the leadership on the ground, shared. In terms of steps going forward, we need to wait until the mayors who take so much responsibility for building the Mayors Council has convened and has made some deter- up their communities, the mayors and their councils who mination about what next steps might be. make the land use decisions, who recognize the importance of making those decisions in tandem with Transportation T. Stone: Okay. I’ll take that as it’s tools down until the and Infrastructure. So I frmly believe in leaving that with Mayors Council reports back, once they’ve convened. the mayors to do the work that they need to do, which is I do, though, want to come back to the issue of the fees to make the determinations about what technology would or the costs that have been incurred to this point and the serve communities best. I look forward to their deliberations assumption on the part of the new mayor of Surrey that the that will be coming up in the coming weeks. city of Surrey doesn’t believe it should have to cover those costs. Presumably, TransLink should. T. Stone: I’m just wondering if the minister could share I’m sure that if asked, the minister is not going to give with the committee…. Of the $1.65 billion on the Surrey me an opinion one way or the other on that, so I won’t go LRT project — let’s assume that it can be switched to there. But if TransLink was to come back and say we have to SkyTrain, or if the mayors say: “Keep it as LRT….” It’s a $1.65 add $80 million or $100 million to the plan because the plan billion project at this point. has substantially changed and, in part, those costs are being How many provincial dollars are actually going into fund- accrued because of work that was already done that we now ing the Surrey LRT project? How many capital dollars are have to redo, is the minister going to then be open to fund- being invested by the province of British Columbia in the ing those, whatever that request might be? If so, what would LRT project in Surrey? that look like? Hon. S. Robinson: I know that the member understands Hon. S. Robinson: Again, I’m not going to presuppose that when you take a look at the whole package, our govern- what could, might, should possibly happen. Right now, we ment has funded 40 percent of the capital dollars. Tat’s what have before us a bill that was done in consultation with we committed to doing. All of that got put into the invest- numerous stakeholders. It was put together as part of a com- ment plan, and part of the investment plan is the regional prehensive plan. Tat is an investment plan that the mayors funds. As well, a number of the cities are bringing capital supported. dollars, and certainly the federal government is bringing [3:30 p.m.] capital dollars. We are funding our portion of the invest- Everybody understands this is about signifcant invest- ment, the 40 percent of an investment plan. ments in transit infrastructure that’s throughout the region. How the actual projects get divvied up is how the account- I look forward to being able to deliver that, and I know that ants identify how to best manage the various projects. the mayors look forward to being able to deliver that. Guess- Internally, those decisions have been made by TransLink ing what may or may not happen over the coming weeks with staf about how to best deliver. But our government, as and months is not, at this point, something that afects this well as the regional dollars and federal dollars, is about tak- decision today. ing a look at the entire investment plan. Again, this is a regional investment. We know that it’s T. Stone: I’m wondering if the minister has a view on really important to move people from one end of the the technology here. I understand the Mayors Council is region to the other, that people want to get home to their going to convene. Tey’re going to discuss Surrey’s request families. Te congestion is very challenging, and we know to change the technology from LRT to SkyTrain. It would it’s only going to get worse, with a million more people appear to this point that the city of Vancouver has at least coming to the region. expressed a willingness to work with Surrey. Tat doesn’t Te issue that I think is most critical for us is moving on necessarily mean they will 100 percent support switching the these projects quickly. We are so far behind. We are probably Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6401 in the neighbourhood of seven, eight years behind in terms T. Stone: Okay, I take the minister at face value on that. of this kind of investment. I’m very proud of the fact that we Perhaps she could provide, for the record, what those took a look at the whole plan and invested in the plan. accounting advantages are when she talks about this alloc- ation as purely because the accountants have suggested that T. Stone: For the record, I’m reading from the govern- this be the way it be done. ment’s news release on September 4, 2018. I think, again, that the folks in Surrey have a right to know [3:35 p.m.] why the province of British Columbia is not allocating $1 to Tat was the day that, with great fanfare….It is very, very the capital projects which they’ve announced several times important investment, for sure. Te Prime Minister was in in the city of Surrey. the Lower Mainland with the Premier, and they announced [3:40 p.m.] the investment package that was coming together for the rapid transit projects in the Lower Mainland. Te two pro- Hon. S. Robinson: When the member was detailing the jects combined represented, I believe, a $1.37 billion invest- various contributions, what he didn’t highlight was that ment from the federal government and $1.82 billion from TransLink’s dollars aren’t in the Broadway extension. Te the provincial government. reason for this division is so that each organization will own Ten as you go through the news release here, the Broad- an asset that allows them to capitalize it over the life of the way subway package provides for a funding breakdown of asset. So the province and TransLink are major funders for $888.4 million from the government of Canada and $1.82 assets that they each own. billion from the government of British Columbia. Ten there’s $99.8 million of in-kind land contributions from the T. Stone: Okay. Te next question. I would appreciate…. city of Vancouver. So the Broadway project has a combina- It’s back to the ten-year plan. I would like to take the oppor- tion of funding from three levels of government: Vancouver, tunity to just ask the minister if she could express for this the province and the federal government. committee what her level of confdence is that this current When you get to the breakdown on the Surrey-Newton- ten-year plan…. With all of the variables that are now swirl- Guilford light rail transit project, the LRT in Surrey, it refers ing around, particularly Surrey rapid transit–related, how to a funding breakdown representing $483.8 million from confdent is she that the plan will remain fully funded, mov- the government of Canada and $1.12 billion from ing forward? TransLink. No mention of any funding from the province of British Columbia. Hon. S. Robinson: Absolutely confdent. I know the minister has said this is an accounting issue. I’ve never heard that before. I don’t understand why. Cer- Sections 1 to 10 inclusive approved. tainly, when I was there, it was never discussed with me about any accounting advantages that provided for diferent Title approved. project allocations and where the funding would come from and so forth. I do know, on some highway projects, ofen the Hon. S. Robinson: I move that the committee rise and funding can be staged and can come from diferent sources report the bill complete without amendment. at diferent times. Tat seems to happen as a matter of regu- lar course. Motion approved. I’m wondering if she could take another shot here at explaining to this committee — but I think, more import- Te committee rose at 3:42 p.m. antly, to the people of Surrey — why there doesn’t appear to be $1 of provincial capital funding going towards the LRT, Committee of the Whole House which might become SkyTrain sooner than later. Te pro- jects in Surrey don’t appear to have any provincial funding BILL 48 — TEMPORARY FOREIGN WORKER for capital. If the minister could explain the rationale for that PROTECTION ACT again, I’d appreciate it. Te House in Committee of the Whole (Section A) on Hon. S. Robinson: I can. I don’t think that…. Te oppo- Bill 48; D. Routley in the chair. sition is not accurately representing how we’re funding this. We are funding 40 percent of phase 2 of the mayors’ ten-year Te committee met at 3:59 p.m. vision, and the sources of funding will fow to diferent pro- jects. But let’s be really clear: we are funding 40 percent of On section 1. phase 2. None of these regions’ transit projects would hap- [4:00 p.m.] pen if the province wasn’t participating in this funding mod- el. Our commitment is to the entire plan, and the allocation J. Martin: I expected some introductory remarks from the is really about accounting. minister before we plunged right into it. In lieu of those, if 6402 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

I may, I’ve got a handful of sort of general questions around I think it’s all over. I don’t think there’s a specifc you can the legislation before we get into the actual specifcs. I’d like actually break down industry by industry or factory by fact- to begin with those. ory. It’s just the overall problem that we have. Tank you to the minister and staf. It’s good to be back We’ve seen very high-profle media reports. Tere are here. pages full of them. I just met with the Mexican consul gener- Just some general housekeeping, if I may. How many work al yesterday just on this topic. Tey are very, very appreciat- permits were issued for B.C. under the temporary foreign ive because they are also handling many of these complaints worker program last year? themselves for Mexican nationals. It’s all diferent areas. Te idea is to make sure that those temporary foreign Hon. H. Bains: We have 2017 stats. Te total: 47,620 workers who come to B.C. are protected from recruiters, new work permits were issued for people who came to B.C. from all those illegal fees that they may charge, and from Out of them, 16,865 were for the temporary foreign work- some employers who take advantage of them and also put er program, and 30,755 were for the international mobility the good employers at a disadvantage economically. program. J. Martin: Can the minister provide us with an overview J. Martin: Are you able, Minister, to give us some idea of of the degree of consultation that took place and who how these are distributed across the diferent sectors — agri- specifcally was consulted with before this legislation was culture, forestry, food and beverage, construction, etc. — just drafed? so we have a general idea of where the foreign nationals are being employed? Hon. H. Bains: We went through a few steps. In the frst phase, what we did in advance of fnalizing this legislation Hon. H. Bains: Agriculture, forestry and fshing and was that the ministry presented information on the pro- hunting sectors, around 9,000 positions — almost half of posed licensing and registration provisions to ensure that the all the temporary foreign worker program in B.C. Cultural stakeholders were well informed and could assess the impact industries, which include tech- and flm-related occupations, for their members and provide input on implementation. around 1,700 positions, which is about 9 percent. Accom- Phase 2 was, as part of the regulation-setting process, that modation, food services, about 8 percent. Construction, 6 consultation would continue, to ensure that the impacted percent, and manufacturing, 5 percent. stakeholders were aware of the legislation and to seek input. Phase 3 will be ongoing public engagement. J. Martin: On a similar note, are you able to give us some Again, if you look at who we actually talked to, the min- idea about the regional breakdown of what parts of the istry consulted with B.C.’s Small Business Roundtable, the province these people are being employed in? Business Council of British Columbia, the Coalition of B.C. Businesses, the B.C. Agriculture Council, the B.C. Fruit Hon. H. Bains: Out of those, 83 percent of those work Growers Association, foreign migrant worker support permit holders are in the Lower Mainland, 5 percent are in organizations like the Migrant Workers Centre, the B.C. the Tompson-Okanagan region, and 4 percent are on the Care Providers Association, the B.C. Federation of Labour, Island and coast regions. other key unions who work with temporary foreign workers, the B.C. Employment Standards Coalition and foreign work- J. Martin: Te legislation and the registries primarily are er recruiter and immigration consultants. being brought forward to address exploitation and abuse, as Te consultation was quite wide because we want to such. Is the minister able to identify the category or categor- make sure that…. Our purpose is to protect the temporary ies where there seems to be the largest concern? foreign workers, who are probably the very most vulner- able in our province right now. We are just targeting that Hon. H. Bains: Member, we need to understand what the area, making sure that the people who will be afected by purpose behind this Temporary Foreign Worker Protection these changes know exactly what the impact would be. Act is. It is to protect the temporary foreign workers from I think we went to great lengths to ensure that they all recruiters and from some employers. understand what’s going on. Te recruiters. We are trying to fx that problem by having them licensed. Tey recruit for any industry and for any J. Martin: Tank you for that. Can the minister enlighten region of the province. us on if these registries were formatted or modelled afer Ten we have a few employers where we have some com- existing registries in other jurisdictions? Or were they cre- plaints. Te complaints are in many forms: bullying, intim- ated anew? idation, taking possessions from temporary foreign workers [4:10 p.m.] such as passports, not paying the wages that they’re entitled to, or not according to the law. Hon. H. Bains: Manitoba and Saskatchewan have stand- [4:05 p.m.] alone legislation such as this. Tere are a couple of other jur- Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6403 isdictions who also have issues, but they have a limited scope being undermined, that they have a place to go, they know to their legislation — Nova Scotia, for example, and Ontario. where to go and the language services are provided to them as well. J. Martin: As we all know, the second half of this act is literally a carbon copy of the existing Employment Stand- J. Martin: Just one more inquiry in a general sense before ards Act. I’m just wondering why we created a new act and we move through section by section. I appreciate if the min- added on that section rather than amending the existing ister wouldn’t have this on hand, but are we able to be told, in Employment Standards Act — just making this an amend- this room today, what the regulatory requirement count for ment to that. the legislation is?

Hon. H. Bains: Te idea here is that we are mirroring Hon. H. Bains: In the order of about 140. the Employment Standards Act, not changing the Employ- ment Standards Act. Tis gives you a stand-alone authority, a J. Martin: Tat concludes general inquiries. framework which has some guidelines to deal with the tem- porary foreign workers and recruiters. A. Weaver: Just a quick question to the minister. In the Employment standards normally talk about the workers, defnition of local government, it’s defned as: “(a) a muni- employees and employers. With this, we’re covering recruit- cipality, (b) a regional district, and (c) another local body ers in here as well, not only here in B.C. but elsewhere. Ten prescribed by regulation.” My question is: how does this there are fnes and there are jail terms as penalties, too, as include First Nations, or is that a separate category? Are they prevention measures. to be “prescribed by regulation”? Tat’s why we’re mirroring employment standards, which works. We have this separate authority, a separate registry, so Hon. H. Bains: Tank you, Member. Te defnition here that both employers and recruiters will register and license, is a reference to section 3(2) of the act. When you look at and there are consequences if they don’t obey the law. 3(2) of the act itself, it does refer to First Nations.

J. Martin: Can the minister let us know what the process Sections 1 and 2 approved. will be to educate temporary foreign workers in B.C. of their rights, taking into consideration that many, if not the major- On section 3. ity, are not fuent in English? J. Martin: Can the minister confrm that a person does Hon. H. Bains: I want to thank the member. Creating not have to apply for a licence if they’re recruiting a foreign awareness, and those temporary foreign workers knowing national for their own company or for a company that they their rights, is the key component of being successful here — work for? which would include enforcement. But creating awareness will be the frst step that we would be taking. Hon. H. Bains: Tat is correct. What we are expecting to do is: the ministry would under- take an awareness campaign during implementation, when J. Martin: Tat was just too easy. the legislation comes into force. We’ll also establish a website Is there any provision in this bill that would prevent a with information about the act, including information on company from hiring a foreign national recruiter and, in rights for foreign workers under the act. As well, the legis- efect, making them an employee of their company and then lation requires foreign worker recruiters and employers to engaging and recruiting for the company they work for? provide foreign nationals and foreign workers with informa- tion about their rights. Tere are a number of diferent steps Hon. H. Bains: When you are an employee of the com- we’re going to take. pany, as I said in my earlier answer, you’re not required to I agree. I would expect the ministry to have a really good be licensed if you are recruiting for yourself. I think this awareness campaign through the ethnic media, in addition answers that question. You’re an employee of the company, to this, so that temporary foreign workers actually know and then the employer is recruiting. It falls under the frst what their rights are. Many of those workers, Member, come question. from jurisdictions…. I can tell you, from some of the coun- [4:20 p.m.] tries, they don’t even know that there’s a labour department that exists. Tey don’t even know whom to turn to if their J. Martin: One of the sections that really kind of struck wages aren’t paid. out at me, given my background, is regarding post-second- [4:15 p.m.] ary education. I’m curious why someone who “acts on behalf Tey don’t understand the system when they come here, of a college, institution or university, as defned in the College so it’s our ministry’s job to make sure that they understand and Institute Act,” is exempt from registering. what their rights are and, when they feel their rights are 6404 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

Hon. H. Bains: Again, we go back to the basis of this bill: process the applications there. Tey’re not required to be to protect the most vulnerable workers — the temporary for- licensed here in B.C. Tat’s not the intent here. eign workers who are tied to one employer. When you’re Te intent is to protect the temporary foreign workers talking about colleges and universities, when they are who are working in British Columbia. I described the con- recruiting professors and lecturers, there is hardly any case ditions. I described who they are. I described why and who of abuse or exploitation. Tat’s why they’re exempted. falls within that defnition of vulnerability. I think that’s the whole purpose behind here. J. Martin: To follow up on that…. Obviously, hiring an international scholar to come to a university is one thing, J. Martin: My last inquiry on section 3. Can the minister but we know there are labour issues of a serious nature at provide an example of a prescribed class of persons that are post-secondary with the graduate students and the teaching currently being considered for exemption from applying for loads that they have, the lack of benefts or protections or any a licence? security. Tis extends beyond professors and instructors; it includes all of the support staf, too, that could be as vulner- Hon. H. Bains: Tere are a number of exemptions, as able as at any other institution. you know, and it’s just to give you an enabling language in Again, I’m wondering why, specifcally, there seems to be case there is another body that may need to be exempted an exemption for a particular institution that probably has its later. We have no intention of providing any other exemp- own share of defciencies in labour practices and standards. tions at this point.

Hon. H. Bains: I think our information is that universities A. Weaver: Hi. I just have a quick question. I can’t believe and colleges don’t recruit labourers. Tey do have professors I just said hi, afer mocking somebody else who’d done that with specialized skills — specialized needs — to fulfl the recently. Now I’m on record as saying hi. needs of the institution. Tere are no cases…. Cases haven’t I have a quick question. Te reason why I ask this is that been heard that there is abuse. I’m looking for inconsistencies across legislation. In this sec- Te idea here is to protect those very vulnerable workers tion 3, the government and “frst nation” — small “f,” small who are tied to one single employer, with one work permit. “n”…. Te reason why I’m asking this is First Nation is typ- Tey cannot move. Teir possessions are taken away from ically capitalized in other legislation, and I envision us hav- them. Tey’re forced to live in very unhealthy living condi- ing yet another miscellaneous statutes amendment act com- tions sometimes. Wages aren’t paid, or are not paid accord- ing forward, and you know how much I love to debate those. ing to the law. Tose are the areas that we are trying to pro- My question here is: was that lef as small “f,” small “n” on tect. purpose, or is that just an inadvertent error that should be Tere are all kinds of temporary foreign workers in the corrected prior to a miscellaneous statutes amendment act province — as I said, 47,000-some, but the 16,000 that come coming through? under this program fall into the vulnerable category, many of them. I think that afer the regulations we will be defning Hon. H. Bains: I never expected this question, but it is a what “vulnerable workers” are. Tat’s how we will be zeroing question. It’s a good question. I don’t know what other legis- in on those who are vulnerable, actually. lation has capitalized it and not capitalized “f” and “n,” but this is not intentional to have given any diferent meanings J. Martin: I just have a couple more questions on section to it. It’s just like the way the drafers work in this building, 3, and I believe that at least one of my colleagues has some and that’s what happened. inquiries in this area as well. On a similar note, Chair, we also see in the act that exemp- S. Tomson: I have a few questions that I’d like to pursue, tions are given to those who act on behalf of “the govern- and I hope this is the appropriate section. If it’s not, then the ment of a jurisdiction outside Canada.” I’m kind of won- Chair can advise. dering: why is it extended to include foreign governments? [4:30 p.m.] We’re giving exemptions to certain countries with known Tis section is dealing with certifcates of registration for human rights and workers rights abuses. Without naming employers, on foreign nationals. It’s all about the registration the countries specifcally, we all know that there is horrifc and who the employers are. abuse, yet we are exempting foreign workers who come to Some of this might be a little bit more of a general ques- work on behalf of those governments and jurisdictions. tion. Te one thing I did want to ask…. Tis is about set- [4:25 p.m.] ting up a registry for employers and a registry for recruit- ers, which is in another section. I’ve raised this point in the Hon. H. Bains: Te idea, again, is to protect those workers second reading comments and debate on the bill around who are here under, for example, a seasonal agriculture the minister’s mandate letter that talked about creating a worker program. Te Mexican government, for example, temporary foreign worker registry to help protect vulner- able workers. Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6405

I wanted to ask the minister about his interpretation of tion. Tat’s the purpose behind the mandate letter, and that’s what that mandate letter was around the creation of the exactly what we are doing through this act. registry — whether it was initially to create a worker registry, which was the direction provided in the mandate, and, if S. Tomson: Tank you, Minister. I appreciate the com- that’s correct and that was initially the direction of the man- ments. date, the reasons why it is now an employer registry and a I think the minister will probably understand some of the recruiter registry versus having a worker registry. concerns that were raised in looking at that. Developing a I made the comments that I thought, potentially, there database or a registration of workers could create potential were issues raised around protection of privacy, freedom of concerns around freedom of information, the protection of information in establishing a worker registry. I wonder if the privacy of those workers, opportunities for organizations or minister could give an answer to that kind of general ques- recruiters or anybody to access a database in some way that tion I had around this. may be for other purposes and that sort of thing. So that’s just why I wanted to ask the question and clarify what the Hon. H. Bains: Te intent is to track the use of workers initial intent was and where it’s ended up. and not the workers themselves. Te employer registry mod- I wanted to discuss a little bit…. Given that farmers are el provides protection for the workers by knowing where employers, it’s probably the appropriate section to raise it they’re working and also how they’re recruited and who their here. Just a general question frst. I wonder if the minister recruiters are. Tat’s the intent, to capture those two areas could provide information on what level and what consulta- — that the recruiters follow the law and that the employers tion process took place with agricultural producers — the abide by the law operating in British Columbia. Once you producer organizations, the farm organizations that repres- know…. ent those producers — prior to the introduction of the legis- I’m just going into the general intent behind this. Recruit- lation. Was there a substantive consultation process with the ers will be required to license. In the act, if you go further, agricultural producer organizations industry prior to bring- individually, they have to be licensed so that we can remove ing the legislation in? their licence, suspend their licence in case we fnd they’re in violation of our legislation or the intent of the law. Te same Hon. H. Bains: I read the list earlier on with the question thing with the employer. about the consultation. To answer your question, Member, We will know and the people will know if they’re not fol- specifcally for the agriculture side of it, I met with the Agri- lowing the law, and those who wish to come as a temporary culture Council yesterday. As you know, they were all here. foreign worker could take a guide who is a licensed recruit- Generally speaking, they are supportive of what we are er. Tey would use the licensed recruiter, knowing that those doing. Tey understand, just like we understand, that there recruiters are expected to abide with the law. Tat’s the intent are always a few bad — no pun intended — apples. Tey behind this. believe that everyone should have a level playing feld. Why allow a system to punish good employers? Because most of S. Tomson: I appreciate that response. Maybe I could them are good employers. just ask a little more directly. Te question really was: in We should go afer those who do not obey the law, who the development of the mandate letter…. I recall the way do not treat their workers with respect. Health and safety are mandate letters were developed when we had them, in not protected there, and they don’t pay them according to terms of we had discussions around setting out the direc- the law. Why would they be incentivized to continue to enjoy tion. Te question really is: is it a fair interpretation to look an economic competition against the good employers? So I at that mandate letter and say, initially, when this was put think they, generally speaking, agree. into this direction, put into the mandate letter and the pro- [4:40 p.m.] cess started…? We did consult with them prior and during the time when [4:35 p.m.] we were developing this legislation. As late as yesterday, we I can understand where you may have ended up in terms met with them again. We went through it, and they had of a registry for employers and a licensing or registry process some concerns, like you have and other members have. We for recruiters. But the initial direction or initial intent start- answered those concerns. ing this process — were there thoughts about having a When I’m meeting with all these diferent employers registry of workers, which is what appears to be the direction groups, I think there’s overwhelming support for what we are in the mandate letter? trying to do here, because they all understand that a few bad employers should not take advantage by cheating and not Hon. H. Bains: No. Te intent always was what we are paying — against the good employers. doing here through the act, which was to provide protection I think, generally speaking, not only is this protection for to the temporary foreign workers who are in British workers in British Columbia, which we should and are try- Columbia. Registering temporary foreign workers will not ing to do, but at the same time, be on the side of good solve anything. It is to protect them from abuse and exploita- employers. 6406 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

S. Tomson: I think you won’t get any disagreement What we are trying to do through this bill is for recruiters around the need to deal with the bad apples or the bad and farmers to register and be licensed so that if they are employers. I met with the members of the agriculture not following the law, then they can be deregistered or sus- industry yesterday as well, and did hear some concerns that pended. Ten we will be contacting the federal government there wasn’t, they didn’t feel, a signifcant enough level of that they’re not registered with us anymore, and they would consultation prior to the introduction — having some of the probably be barred from bringing in temporary foreign concerns raised yesterday, sort of afer the fact. workers in the future, and the same thing with the recruiters. I know the minister is very familiar with the seasonal Despite what they have to go through in the process, fll agriculture worker program — over 7,000 workers in the in all those forms…. Like I said, I met with the consul gen- program, both from Mexico and the Caribbean under an eral of Mexico yesterday. Tey are very, very deeply involved international agreement, the Canada-Mexico agreement or in this. Tere are cases of abuse. Tey have told me that they Canada-Caribbean agreement. A very signifcant level of have suspended some farms. process in order to participate in the program under the Tat’s them, there. But we have no ability to deregister or agreement — terms and conditions around transportation, suspend the registration of a farm or farms or deal with the around housing, around all the medical insurance coverage recruiters who are not following the law. I think this registry in the program. will enable us to do that. One of the things that is a requirement in the program…. It’s not only enforcement of our law to protect our tempor- Tis is right of the seasonal agriculture worker program cri- ary foreign workers, which it is, but also a prevention tool. teria, or process, from the federal government: “Employers Te employer will know that there could be deregistration or must complete and sign an employment contract entitled their registration could be suspended, and they will not be Agreement for employment in Canada for SAWP and send able to bring in a temporary foreign worker in the future. So it with the labour market impact assessment application to I think it serves those two purposes. Service Canada.” Tis requires the signature of the liaison ofcer and, in the case of the SAWP program, also requires [S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.] the worker information to be there. I think the question…. One of the things that the industry S. Tomson: I’m certainly not raising concerns here with sectors are concerned about is another process, a duplication respect to the recruiter side of the licensing and require- and a layering on of processes. ments that are here. But I do want to, on behalf of many farm Te concerns I heard yesterday were wanting to — the organizations and many producers I’ve talked to, express minister indicated that there’s support for this, and I heard their concerns around the registration process and wanting that as well — make sure that there is not excessive duplic- to make sure that it isn’t a duplicate of things. ation and a regulatory process that’s going to slow down If you look at the terms and conditions of the SAWP pro- the process. I’ve heard many concerns from the producers gram and the fact that they have an employment contract, around the SAWP program as being a signifcant process to the purpose of the employment contract is to specify each go through to get the labour market analysis and everything party’s rights and obligations; ensure that all parties under- they have to do to get through that and longer delays in it. stand and agree to working conditions, respective responsib- I guess the question I want to ask is: given that all that ilities; in the event of diferences with the employer and the information is there under the program — employer, terms temporary foreign worker, the contract will guide the resol- of contract, the information on the employees, the require- ution of disputes. In the cases of demonstrable breaches of ment to provide information around transfer between farms, employment contract, including possible compensation, the all part of the program — what is the rationale as to why that temporary foreign worker, liaison ofcer or employer can information couldn’t have been used as the registry and why contact the Ministry of Labour in the province or territory the province can’t access that information for the purposes where work is being performed. that are being contemplated in the registration of employers It seems to me like there is a process in place that can deal process as being equivalent to, and in some cases, probably with those situations where the terms and conditions of the even more detailed than the registry? contract are not being met. What are the gaps between that process — why it couldn’t Perhaps my question, then, to the minister is: is there a be used — and why a separate registration system needs to sense, from the minister and the ministry, that the rigour be put in place? Was any consideration given to using that and work of the seasonal agriculture worker program, and process and exempting the seasonal agriculture worker pro- that process, is not strong enough, not adequate? Is there a gram from the requirements for the registry, given that all sense that there are…? Are gaps in that program why they’ve the information is there already? had to come in with a separate registry for employers in that program, when we have, it appears to me, such a system Hon. H. Bains: All of that is through a federal program, that has all of that licensing and employment contracts and as we understand, and, yes, they have to fll out those forms. everything already in place? [4:45 p.m.] Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6407

Hon. H. Bains: In addition to what I have already said, farmer registered under this registry in order for you to be Member…. I appreciate the line of questioning. Tat part the able to act. member mentioned is a federal program. Employers have to fll in those forms, and all those requirements are there. But Hon. H. Bains: I think I tried to answer that question I’m talking about enforcement. earlier. Te federal program is a federal program, and the When the workers are working in British Columbia, it’s labour market analysis…. Tey have to go through the pro- our jurisdiction. Te federal government has no jurisdiction cess. Yes, there’s a PNP program. Te province gets involved. to enforce employment standards. Tat falls on us, as the But when it comes to enforcing the rules of what the pro- province, as the member knows full well. gram requirements are, there is no jurisdiction the province Also, if we don’t know where they’re working, if they’re has, because that is a federal program. not registered, there are no tools to fnd them or to deregister If there are employment standards violations, yes, we can them. So this is what this is. Tat’s why we are making it very enforce employment standards. But in addition to employ- seamless and a very simple process of them going on line, ten ment standards, there are a number of provisions in those to 15 minutes, and now you know that you’re registered. agreements that they sign. It will give our employment standards branch an ability to What this act does…. Tere are a number of prohibitions, monitor and audit, if there are complaints, and then to make both for the recruiters and for the employers, that don’t exist sure that our laws, British Columbia laws, and the tempor- currently. I think this will enable us to use this act to enforce ary foreign worker program agreement are enforced. I think not only employment standards better but also the tempor- that’s what we’re trying to do. ary foreign worker program and to ensure that the workers [4:50 p.m.] are treated fairly. Despite all of that, Member, as you know, there are cases [4:55 p.m.] where employers are involved, and their recruiters are We’ve seen that despite all of this that they’re required to involved, in abuse and exploitation. We have cases…. Right do, there are cases where employers have taken possessions now there’s a class action case out there where an employer away from their workers, such as passports, and there were and recruiters are involved. threats of deportation by the employers. Like I said, there are So the idea here is that for those employers who obey the very few of those out there, not the majority of them. Te law, pay their workers according to the law, there’s no addi- majority of them are good employers. tional issue. But those few who do not…. I think it’s our What we are trying to do here through the Temporary responsibility as government in 2018 in British Columbia to Foreign Worker Protection Act will enable us to enforce make sure that they obey the law, that the workers are treated the Employment Standards Act and the temporary foreign with respect under the law and that they don’t take unfair worker program, and to provide respect and health and advantage — over the good employers. safety to those vulnerable workers.

S. Tomson: Te minister says that there may be employ- S. Tomson: I appreciate the responses. I’ll probably leave ers in the SAWP program who aren’t registered. In my this line of questioning with a statement, maybe, to say that I understanding and experience with the program, that can’t know, in discussions with the Agriculture Council and other be the case. You can’t be in the SAWP program and not be organizations, they are generally okay with the registry pro- registered. Te basis of the program is an access to those cess. Tey will want to ensure that it is — as I think I heard temporary foreign workers. Te program is because you’ve the minister say — very simple, streamlined, easy, not costly. applied. You’ve done a labour market analysis. You’ve gone I will have a question around fees later on. through the process. You’ve had your housing inspected. I think we will need, as members of the opposition, to You’ve paid for the transportation for them all to come out. watch. We’ll keep our communications in place with the Ag Again, I guess it goes back to…. Te other question I’ll ask Council to make sure that it is, as the minister has stated it in this question is…. You said it’s the jurisdiction of the fed- will be, a simple process for them and doesn’t add a level of eral government; you don’t have any authority in this case. If bureaucracy or red tape or cost to the producers on it. the federal government, through this program and through In my view, I still believe that this could have been simply the work of the consulate, advises the…. It does say in the accomplished by the existing program and the information information here that the federal government would advise fow between the existing program and the farmers who the Ministry of Labour. are already participating in that program, because of all the In that case, wouldn’t the province have jurisdiction, terms, conditions, employment contracts and everything through employment standards, through WorkSafe, through that’s in place. Some information-sharing could have the existing legislative processes and the enforcement pro- addressed it, rather than a separate registry. cesses you have under those divisions, to be able to access I will ask one other question in terms of the program. I’ll that? It would seem to me that if they refer that to you, you’ve probably get ruled out of order, but I’ll give it a shot anyway. got all the existing ability and authority to deal with those One of the concerns…. I know it was raised with the situations. It’s not as though you would have to have the Minister of Finance around the seasonal agricultural work- 6408 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 ers program and the requirement that producers in the pro- continues. We will be going through consultation to develop gram are required to provide medical insurance coverage as the regulations. part of the contract — separate program and a requirement. Right now we have, under the employment standards, a Now these employers will be required to pay for the employ- security deposit required from farm contractors, based on er health tax, which adds an additional cost on it, with the the number of employees that they employ. I think we’ll be program. taking guidance from other jurisdictions as well. We will I would just like to ask the minister whether he heard that take all those into consideration and make sure that the concern in his discussions with the industry yesterday when security is what would be sufcient in order to draw from, in he met with them and if he had any comment on that. the event that these recruiters tried to charge illegal fees, so that we can collect those illegally collected fees from recruit- Te Chair: As a former minister and Speaker of this ers and return them to the workers. House, the member is correct. Te questions regarding the [5:05 p.m.] employer health tax were canvassed when that came through I think the process will be through consultation and the committee stage, and I would draw the member’s attention regulations. Tat’s when it’ll be determined. to section 3, which is what we are now discussing. J. Martin: Tis is my last question on this section. Is there Sections 3 and 4 approved. a timeline within which a director has to complete any inquiries or investigations under this section? And in com- On section 5. pleting such inquiries or investigations, will the applicant be given an opportunity to respond to concerns raised? J. Martin: Why is an individual required to fle security as part of their licence application, while there is no such Hon. H. Bains: We don’t have any defned timelines, but requirement for a business applying for a certifcate of we have a system in place right now. Farm contractors, for registration? example, are licensed, and we have developed regulations [5:00 p.m.] around that. Many of those make applications, and our employment standards branch is very, very efcient in the Hon. H. Bains: Tere’s a reason, I think, why we require turnaround phase so that they don’t make you wait an recruiters to deposit a fee at the time of application for a unreasonable time. licence. Section 61 actually does deal with the employer. Basically, what it says here is they need to determine I can tell you now that the director does have authority, whether the applicant can meet the requirement of this act under section 61. If an employer charges a fee illegally — for and regulations — and fnancial history and the character example, to provide a job — then the director has the discre- of what goes on. Once that determination is made, I think tion of charging a fee at that time. it should be in a very timely fashion, but if they fnd some I think what we want to do is to ensure that we can make issues with any of those areas, it may take longer, or they may it smooth and seamless, as I said before. Te purpose isn’t be denied licensing. to burden employers with regulations or burden employers with fees and extra costs. Tey want to do their business, and Section 5 approved. we want to support them. All we are trying to do through the act here is to protect vulnerable workers from a very On section 6. few employers and also from recruiters — who would be required to deposit fees that the director can draw from in J. Martin: Why is the licence valid for up to three years? the event that a recruiter violates and charges illegal fees. It’s I’m curious why we came up with that number. And what just another method of enforcing this act to protect those would be the cause for a director to issue a licence for less vulnerable workers. than that maximum three-year term?

J. Martin: I thank the minister for that. What kind of Hon. H. Bains: I think we want to give discretion to the security is being considered to ensure compliance with the director, based on what they fnd when the application is act? Are we talking about enough to cover the maximum made — up to three years. Based on what they fnd during monetary penalty? I believe it’s $50K for an individual. their investigation, it could be only one year, if they have Would the security be a mix of fnancial and property? What some issues with a recruiter. But next time they could say, are the parameters around that? based on the performance of that year, it could go a full three years. I think that’s the whole purpose behind it. Hon. H. Bains: Tere are a number of ways. As I think Tere are other jurisdictions that only start at one year I said earlier, it will be determined through regulations. As or some say longer. I think that’s what we’re trying to do, I said to another question earlier, the consultation process just to make sure that those recruiters stay within the law — one, knowing that their licence could be revoked and, Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6409 two, that they may not be renewed if they don’t perform Hon. H. Bains: I move the amendment to section 8 stand- according to the law. ing in my name on the orders of the day. [SECTION 8, by deleting the text shown as struck out and adding Section 6 approved. the underlined text as shown: Opportunity to be heard respecting actions in relation to licence On section 7. 8 (1) Before the director makes a decision under section 6 (2) [issu- ance or refusal of licence] or 7 (1) (b) [amendment, suspension or can- [5:10 p.m.] cellation of licence], the director must serve the applicant or licensee, as applicable, with J. Martin: Section 7 allows a director to amend, suspend (a) serve the applicant or licensee, as applicable, with written no- or cancel a licence if “the licensee has provided the director tice of the director’s intended action and the reasons for that in- tended action, and with false, misleading or inaccurate information or has failed (b) give the applicant or licensee, as applicable, an opportunity to to provide any information the director required to be make written representations to the director, within a period set provided.” by the director, as to why the intended action should not be taken. Why would the director issue a licence in the frst place if (2) Te director is not required to give an oral hearing to any person to whom a notice has been served under subsection (1) or (5). he or she failed to receive all the information needed to issue (3) Afer considering the representations referred to in subsection (1) a licence? (b), if any, the director must, as soon as practicable, serve the applic- ant or licensee, as applicable, with a copy of the director’s decision un- Hon. H. Bains: I think that due diligence will be done der section 6 (2) or 7 (1) (b) that includes the reasons for the direct- or’s decision. right in the beginning. Tey will expect that all those applic- (4) Despite subsection (1) but subject to subsection (5), if the director ants are in good standing, but they’re required to go through considers that it is necessary to protect the public interest, the direct- providing that information about their background and the or may immediately amend, suspend or cancel a licence without giv- history. Tey may choose to not provide factual information ing the licensee an opportunity to be heard. (5) If the director amends, suspends or cancels a licence under sub- or false information, which a director may fnd later. Tat’s section (4), the director must the purpose here. (a) serve, as soon as practicable, written notice to the licensee that If they fnd, in the beginning, when they are going the licence has been amended, suspended or cancelled, and through the process of providing the licence and approving (b) give the licensee an opportunity to make written represent- ations to the director within 20 business days afer the date on the licence process, if they come across false information or which the licensee is served notice as to why the action of the dir- misleading information, they will be denied at that time. But ector should not have been taken. if they didn’t fnd out in the beginning and later it’s brought (6) Afer considering the representations referred to in subsection (5) to their attention that the information, based on which the (b), if any, the director must, as soon as practicable, serve the licensee with a copy of the director’s decision under section 6 (2) or 7 (1) (b) licence was issued, was false, misleading, then the licence can that confrms, rescinds or varies the action of the director under sub- be revoked. section (4) and includes the reasons for the director’s decision.]

J. Martin: Okay. So we’re in total agreement. If there’s Amendment approved. false, misleading or inaccurate information, we know what the consequences would be. But what we’re specifcally refer- On section 8 as amended. ring to is the section that says: “…or has failed to provide any information the director required to be provided.” J. Martin: Why is the period within which an applicant Again, why would that application be processed posit- provides a written response to a director’s intended decision ively in the frst place if the required application hasn’t to refuse to issue a licence or to amend, suspend or cancel a been submitted? licence at the discretion of the director and not at a set time period, say 20 business days or 30 business days? Instead, it’s Hon. H. Bains: Tere could be a number of diferent situ- at the discretion. ations. Te information is required, but the applicant may say: “I don’t have that information.” And if it’s required, cer- Hon. H. Bains: Member, could you draw your attention tainly the director can make a decision right in the begin- to what part of the section you’re referring to? ning. I think the issue, once again, here is that if all the infor- mation that the director needs to approve the application — J. Martin: Section 8(1)(b). then the application will be approved. But if there is some [5:15 p.m.] false information provided, then the licence can be revoked. Hon. H. Bains: I think why it’s lef at the discretion of the J. Martin: Okay. I’ll move on. director is because circumstances could be diferent. Some may require two weeks; some may require one week; some Section 7 approved. may require four weeks, based on the circumstances. Tat’s why it’s lef at the discretion of the director. I think my On section 8. 6410 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018 expectation would be that it’s a reasonable time given to To defne whether it’s going back two years, one year or reply so that justice is served. fve years…. Tey may have a temporary foreign worker employed only for one month, and they may have violated J. Martin: Just following up on that particular section, the temporary foreign worker program for part of that one why is the provision for an oral hearing optional? month, or other labour laws. Once this Temporary Foreign Worker Protection Act becomes law, then the director will Hon. H. Bains: Member, it’s not uncommon for diferent conduct an investigation and make the determination. pieces of legislation, diferent tribunals, to have that discre- tion given to the director. Again, it depends on the circum- Sections 12 and 13 approved. stances. Tere may be a requirement that the parties need to have an oral hearing, or not. On section 14.

Section 8 as amended approved. Hon. H. Bains: I move the amendment to section 14 standing in my name on the orders of the day: Sections 9 to 11 inclusive approved. [SECTION 14, by deleting the text shown as struck out and adding the underlined text as shown: On section 12. Opportunity to be heard respecting actions in relation to certifc- ate of registration 14 (1) Before the director makes a decision under section 12 (2) [is- J. Martin: How will the director know if an applicant has suance or refusal of certifcate of registration] or 13 (1) (b) [amend- failed to comply with the terms or conditions of an approval ment, suspension or cancellation of certifcate of registration], the dir- provided by the Canadian government? ector must serve the applicant or registered employer, as applicable, with (a) serve the applicant or registered employer, as applicable, with Hon. H. Bains: I think it goes back to the member from written notice of the director’s intended action and the reasons for Kelowna, when the member drew our attention to the form that intended action, and that the employer must fll out with all the information, (b) give the applicant or registered employer, as applicable, an op- requirements, the contract signed between the worker and portunity to make written representations to the director, within a period set by the director, as to why the intended action should the employer. Te director will have access to that. Ten the not be taken. director will see if the terms of that agreement are complied (2) Te director is not required to give an oral hearing to any person with, or not. Tat’s when the director can make this decision. to whom a notice has been served under subsection (1) or (5). [5:20 p.m.] (3) Afer considering the representations referred to in subsection (1) (b), if any, the director must, as soon as practicable, serve the applic- ant or registered employer, as applicable, with a copy of the director’s J. Martin: Tank you for that. Looking at section 12(2)(e), decision under section 12 (2) or 13 (1) (b) that includes the reasons is there a time frame for how far back non-compliance with for the director’s decision. labour legislation would be considered? Tis section seems (4) Despite subsection (1) but subject to subsection (5), if the director considers that it is necessary to protect the public interest, the direct- pretty broad and open-ended. I’m thinking specifcally about or may immediately amend, suspend or cancel a certifcate of regis- what the defnition of “non-compliance” would be. What tration without giving the registered employer an opportunity to be about incorrect payment or vacation pay? Is that non-com- heard. pliance? It just seems a little bit vague up front. (5) If the director amends, suspends or cancels a certifcate of regis- tration under subsection (4), the director must (a) serve, as soon as practicable, written notice to the registered Hon. H. Bains: I think that frst, we must be reasonable, employer that the certifcate of registration has been amended, and the director has that discretion. We’re not talking here suspended or cancelled, and about someone who mistreated their employee three years (b) give the registered employer an opportunity to make written representations to the director within 20 business days afer the ago — didn’t pay them, inadvertently maybe. If there’s a seri- date on which the registered employer is served notice as to why ous current violation of this act or the labour legislation, cer- the action of the director should not have been taken. tainly that would be taken into consideration. (6) Afer considering the representations referred to in subsection (5) (b), if any, the director must, as soon as practicable, serve the re- gistered owneremployer with a copy of the director’s decision under J. Martin: Just to follow up on that, how far back would section 12 (2) or 13 (1) (b) that confrms, rescinds or varies the action it go? Is there an expiry date to past transgressions, or could of the director under subsection (4) and includes the reasons for the they forever and a day be brought back up for consideration? director’s decision.]

Hon. H. Bains: Again, it’s about being reasonable. We Amendment approved. have Employment Standards right now. Tere are some pro- visions in there. Somebody can complain about unpaid Section 14 as amended approved. wages. In that act, actually, you can go back six months, but here we are talking about now or the immediate past. It On section 15. would still be at the discretion of the director. [5:25 p.m.] Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6411

J. Martin: If a certifcate of registration is cancelled, is this Hon. H. Bains: Tat’s the language in section 23. Clearly, cancellation efective the date of the director’s decision letter, you’re requiring them to disclose to the employer and to the or is it some other date that would take into account the time foreign nationals all of the information, as you read through lag between serving the licensee with a copy of the decision? section 23.

Hon. H. Bains: I think the language is…. If you go down Section 23 approved. to subsection (2), it’ll be on the date the licence is suspended. On section 24. Sections 15 and 16 approved. J. Martin: For disclosure of a foreign worker’s partners, On section 17. afliates or agents, will there be a time period implemented for when a change needs to be reported by? Who will this Hon. H. Bains: I move the amendment to section 17 change be reported to? I’m also interested about the process. standing in my name on the orders of the day. Could it be reported on line? [SECTION 17, by deleting paragraphs (b) and (e).] Hon. H. Bains: Yeah, I think this language is fairly clear, if Amendment approved. you go through (a), (b) and (c) subsections. First, they must disclose “at the time the foreign worker recruiter applies for Section 17 as amended approved. a licence,” and (b) talks about: “at any time afer the time referred to in paragraph (a) that there is a material change in Sections 18 to 21 inclusive approved. the information disclosed.”

On section 22. Sections 24 and 25 approved.

J. Martin: Does the recruiter have to disclose the receipt On section 26. of a fee or compensation to the foreign national only if that foreign national successfully gains employment? Or is it if J. Martin: Will the director under the associated ofce the foreign national simply gets referred, regardless of provide translated materials for the foreign worker recruiter whether they get hired or not? or employer recruiting for a foreign national? I’m just talking about translation assistance in general, if this’ll be provided Hon. H. Bains: Yes, they must disclose if they received a in a format most easily understood. Where are we at right fee whether the worker is placed in a job or not. now in terms of having these translation services up and running? Section 22 approved. Hon. H. Bains: As we have in many of our legislation’s On section 23. employment standards, WCB, the expectation would be that we would have a website that would provide diferent lan- J. Martin: In section 23, why is a foreign worker recruiter guage translations. At the end of the day, the idea is that allowed to act as both a recruiter for an employer while those workers know what their rights are and that we help simultaneously providing immigration services to a foreign them any which way we can, including translation, so that national? I’m just wondering about the potential for confict they understand what their rights are and what they can do of interest or to, heaven forbid, resurrect the dual-agency if their rights are in violation. dialogue in this province once again. [5:30 p.m.] Sections 26 to 28 inclusive approved.

Hon. H. Bains: A recruiter can be an immigration con- On section 29. sultant as well, but then they must disclose. Tey cannot hide behind saying, “I’m an immigration consultant,” at the same J. Martin: Tank you, Minister. I’ve got a handful of what time they’re doing recruiting and trying to go around the act we used to call quick, easy, short snappers here. that is before us. Also, as you know, immigration consultants [5:35 p.m.] are required to be licensed under federal jurisdiction. How is the establishment of a registry for foreign worker recruiters and another for employers that hire foreign J. Martin: What legislative language would specifcally nationals not a duplicate of the various existing registries direct this conduct of disclosure? that are already out there? We’ve heard some concerns that there’s some duplication going on. Can we get the minister to clarify the extent that that is or is not the case? 6412 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

Hon. H. Bains: I think we canvassed this question earlier, would be updated? Would it be real-time, every 30 days? Is from the member from Kelowna. Te idea is to have tools for there any understanding around that time lag? employment standards and, under this registry, to know who is employing temporary foreign workers. I think we can- Hon. H. Bains: I think the registering process is, as you vassed the employer side of the duplication piece of it. know, that you apply to be registered. As I said, it should be Te information that they’re required to go through and a very easy and smooth exercise. Once the application for all the forms they have to fll in do not provide provincial registering or recruiting is accepted, it will go on line as soon authority to enforce employment standards. We have to as practicably possible. enforce provincial employment standards. Te federal gov- ernment does not have that authority. It falls under our Section 29 approved. authority to make sure that they are registered with us and recruiters are licensed so that we can enforce the Temporary On section 30. Foreign Worker Protection Act and other labour laws. J. Martin: Taking specifcally section 30(d), can the min- J. Martin: How soon will the registry for foreign worker ister provide us with a scenario or an anecdote where it recruiters be available? might be reasonably expected that this information would be shared with a department or agency of another country? Hon. H. Bains: I will be depending on the capable hands of the ministry. My expectation is that by spring, we should Hon. H. Bains: One example that comes to mind is Mex- have a recruiter registry in place — spring of next year. ico, for example. Tey told us yesterday that they cancel farm licences that they recruit their workers, their nationals, for. J. Martin: And the registry for employers? Tat could be one. It could be another country that wished to work with us to look at some guidance. We could share Hon. H. Bains: My expectation is as soon as possible. As the information. soon as we have a recruiter registry in place, I think we will I mean, it’s on the website. So anybody could go on line continue to work toward having an employer registry as well. and take that information. I think we’re also looking at…. It may take a little longer time, but the expectation is soon As you’d know, the federal government shares that infor- thereafer. mation, but also some of the other countries, and Mexico comes to mind. J. Martin: I’m wondering what the expectation is about the extent of the impact this will be on employers in how J. Martin: Is it possible there could be situations where they go about conducting their hiring practices for foreign details or specifcs that are not publicly accessible on this nationals. Tey’re obviously into a routine that they’re prob- website would still be shared with an international agency? ably pretty comfortable with. How much of a disruption is [5:45 p.m.] this going to be, or an overhaul? Hon. H. Bains: It’ll be, for example, the name of the Hon. H. Bains: I think they will still continue to go employer. But also, it could be the name of the directors, oth- through the process that they need to go through in order to er than the contact information, so that we could share that hire temporary foreign workers, which is a federal program. information that they have violated, they have been violat- [5:40 p.m.] ing, the temporary foreign worker act. And the recruiters are But going forward, in order to hire temporary foreign licensed individually. Tat information would be available as workers, ten to 15 minutes extra will be required to register well. Tat’s the kind of information. with us, and they could be registered for up to three years. Te Chair: Tis committee will be recessed for fve J. Martin: Tank you for that, Minister. What methods minutes. are being considered to make this information public? I mean, we’ve heard a lot about the public being able to Te committee recessed from 5:46 p.m. to 5:53 p.m. access these registries, but what does that actually mean at the end of the day? [S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.]

Hon. H. Bains: Te ministry contemplates that there will S. Tomson: I just had maybe a couple of questions on be a website established and, through the website, that infor- this section in relation to section 30(g), where it says “any mation will be available. other prescribed persons or class of persons,” and referen- cing back to the fact that this section is “For the purposes J. Martin: Do we have any idea about how frequently this of administering and enforcing this Act….” How would the determination be made about who the other prescribed per- Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6413 sons or class of persons are? Could the minister advise on administration of the act, in terms of assisting in the what might be contemplated, why that was there? And how administration of it, you could get an interpretation that would it be established? Would the other prescribed class said: providing that information helps administer the act. or prescribed persons have to be done by regulation? How Tat’s why I raised the concern. would it work? I appreciate the minister’s clarifcation and the fact that [5:55 p.m.] in his view both of those organizations that I referenced wouldn’t fall into what’s contemplated by “prescribed per- Hon. H. Bains: We’re not aware of any right now. But just sons or class of persons” by regulation. to give you enabling language, through regulation, you could [6:00 p.m.] add: if there are some issues about enforcing or sharing the information with another agency that may be created by this Hon. H. Bains: Not the way they are set up right now. I government — or another person or class of persons. mean, it’s hard to even come up with an example. I think I think it’s just enabling language. Tere’s nothing in we’re saying “administering” means helping employment mind right now. I think we covered them all in the pre- standards and administering how we administer this act and ceding language. Tis is just another language, just in case employment standards. Same thing with enforcing, which we didn’t think about…. Or if that agency doesn’t exist would be through employment standards. right now but comes into existence later, then we have that I think that’s the purpose behind it. It’s not to share infor- enabling language. mation just because somebody needs that information. No, I think it’s very limited here. S. Tomson: I just want to confrm. For it to be determ- ined that there is other prescribed persons or class of per- Sections 30 and 31 approved. sons, it would be by regulation? Okay. Could I just ask a question, then…? Maybe I’ll use an On section 32. example. I’ll ask the minister whether this is a class of per- sons or an agency that could potentially qualify under this, S. Tomson: Section 32 comes under part 7, which is all recognizing that the purpose of this section is sharing and it about investigations, complaints, and determinations. In this says “administering and enforcing” the act. section, it says: “Te director may at any time or for any reas- Could the minister advise whether an organization like on (a) conduct an investigation to ensure compliance with the Progressive Intercultural Society could qualify as that this Act and the regulations, whether or not the director has “prescribed persons” — or the Canadian Farmworkers received a complaint.” Ten all the rest of the provisions are Union? I know that the information is…. Te registry is about complaints and time limit, complainants, investiga- publicly available, but the minister did say, in the shar- tions initiated by a complaint. Can the minister provide his ing of the information, it was other information beyond rationale for providing the powers to the director to initiate simply the registry that would be shared. Could either of an investigation without a complaint? those two organizations be declared by regulation to be a prescribed person or class of persons, where information Hon. H. Bains: I think the area that we’re dealing with would be shared with them? here is workers who are vulnerable, workers who are afraid to complain, workers who don’t know who to complain to, Hon. H. Bains: Te two names that the member men- workers who don’t know what their rights are. I think that’s tioned — they’re not into enforcement of any legislation. why these are some special provisions. If the director is Tey’re there to provide support to immigrants, to farm- advised by someone that there is abuse in that particular workers, those who need to navigate WCB or English as a operation…. Tat person may be an employee of that oper- second language and then a variety of other programs that ation or may not be. But once the director is satisfed that they provide. Te Farmworkers Union is just the union, just there needs to be an investigation and they know that there like any other union, representing some workers. are temporary foreign workers employed there, that’s when I think we’re looking at, for the purpose of administering they can proactively…. Te idea here is to go proactively to and enforcing this act, sharing the information through reg- (1) prevent abuse and (2) deal with abuse and exploitation, ulation, which we haven’t contemplated right now. It could whether there’s a complaint or not. be some other agency which would enable us to help us One of the common themes in all of those highlighted enforce this legislation. Tat’s what we’re talking about. media reports is that the workers are afraid to complain. Tat’s why it gives tools to the director, in this particular class S. Tomson: I appreciate the clarifcation and response. of workers. Tey may need that extra protection so proact- I think the concern could come in terms of defning or ively they can…. I think employment standards, if I’m not interpretation of what is meant by “administration” and mistaken, has similar powers. Teir directors can, on their what is meant by “enforcement.” I can understand on the own, go and investigate if the director is satisfed that there enforcement side of it, but when looking at the overall is abuse or the law isn’t followed. 6414 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

Section 32 approved. On section 38.

On section 33. Hon. H. Bains: I move the amendment to section 38(6) standing in my name in the orders of the day. J. Martin: Just curious why the period for making the [SECTION 38 (6), by deleting the text shown as struck out and complaint — the ofce of the employment standards branch adding the underlined text as shown: — is set within two years compared to the six-month time (6) A person who is required to pay an amount owing under this sec- frame for making a complaint under the employment stand- tion must pay the amount whether or not the person (a) has been convicted of an ofence under this Act, or ards…. Sorry, I got that mixed up. It’s two years for one and (b) is also liable to pay a fne orfor an ofence under section 80 [of- six months for the other. I’m kind of curious why we have fences].] that discretion in there. Amendment approved. Hon. H. Bains: Again, looking at the uniqueness of the situation here, in this particular situation there may be a Section 38 as amended approved. fee charged by a recruiter sometime way before they’re even employed. So six months, as the member mentioned, in the Sections 39 to 61 inclusive approved. employment standard, may not be the time that they would be able to do that. It takes time for them to go through the On section 62. immigration papers. Ten they are employed. By that time, that six months may be gone. J. Martin: I didn’t really have a question on 62, but I was [6:05 p.m.] feeling sorry for you. We believe that the two-year period is reasonable. If they’re charged illegally — the fees to the job, to recruit — Te Chair: We could go right to the end, Member, if you then they would have time to fle a complaint, and illegally would prefer. collected fees would be collected and paid to the worker. J. Martin: Tank you. J. Martin: Still on 33, by having such a long reporting I’m just curious. On 62, when we’re talking about pub- period, is there a concern that this opens up the process to lishing the information of violators’ names. Tis is the same more frivolous types of complaints that are from the past as website where the violations of the companies and anything opposed to immediate and real issues of violations going on? else would take place. Tis isn’t anything diferent than what Was there a problem with the six-month process under the we addressed before. Is that correct? Employment Standards Act? Was it somehow failing that it [6:10 p.m.] needed to be extended by 400 percent? Hon. H. Bains: Again, this is information that the director Hon. H. Bains: Tis isn’t changing the employment stand- may, at their discretion, publish on the website if there are ards. Tis is specifcally to deal with this situation. If the contraventions of this act — including the names of the member’s concern is frivolous complaints, they can be fled employer, the recruiter and the names of those who are within six months. involved in that. Tis is to give them enough time, because by the time I think the discretion is there so that…. It could be a they come to this country…. Tey may have been charged minor contravention, and they may not publish. But it could an illegal fee in their home country. Te recruiter may be something that the director may feel is serious and that have a connection with a recruiter in that country. Or the this information should be published so that those who are same recruiter may have charged him or her the fee in that wishing to come and hire a recruiter or are looking for an country. employer will know that the website clearly states if that It takes time for them to process the application and come particular employer that they’re looking to as a potential to Canada, and then they realize that this fee was illegal. employer is on that list — who has been found to be in viola- Many times, they may not even know that what they were tion in the past. So they may want to avoid that, and the same charged was illegal. Once they realize that the fee was thing with the recruiter. charged illegally, then they can fle a complaint. I think that’s a reasonable period of time for them to fle a complaint. Sections 62 to 67 inclusive approved. Again, if the recruiters are following the law, no one has to worry about two years or six months. It’s only those who will On section 68. not obey the law and violate the terms of this act. Tose are the only people who have to worry about it. J. Martin: We’re into the area of the act which was pre- existing, with regard to appeal. So a few inquiries around Sections 33 to 37 inclusive approved. Wednesday, November 7, 2018 British Columbia Debates 6415

that. To the minister: would a violator’s name be published On section 82. before he or she, or the company, has had an opportunity to exhaust the appeal process? J. Martin: Looking specifcally at section 82(2)(f), the [6:15 p.m.] government news release that accompanied the tabling of this legislation some time ago indicated that the registration Hon. H. Bains: Tere is a 30-day appeal period. Upon the for either of the two registries would be cost-free. So why is expiry of the 30-day appeal period, if there is no appeal, then there a provision to implement fees by regulation in the act? the director, at his or her discretion, may post the names. Again, like we canvassed earlier on, the seriousness of the Hon. H. Bains: We’re all learning how the drafers work. violation…. Tat is why the discretion that the director has. I think this is just the enabling language. Tere is no inten- Yes, the expectation is that the appeal process is completed tion for the ministry to charge fees to the recruiters or to the and determinations stand, or the employer chose not to employer, but this is a way of doing it so that in the future, if appeal and the 30 days have expired. the government decides there should be a fee, then through regulations, they can add that. J. Martin: Just to clarify, no name would be published, no [6:20 p.m.] violation would be published prior to that, having an oppor- tunity to go through the appeal process. J. Martin: Nonetheless, the act does have the provision to implement fees down the road. In the short time I’ve been Hon. H. Bains: Tat is correct. involved, it usually kind of means that fees are coming at some point, sooner or later. So let’s hypothetically say the J. Martin: As we all know, any decision by any one of fees will be charged in the future. Going to have to think a number of tribunals can always be taken to a Court of down the road here. Would these be on a cost recovery basis, Appeal and overturned. Tis frequently happens. We saw it or would they be as a part of supporting the registry itself? with decisions from the Human Rights Commission and a What would be the rationale for imposing fees at a future number of others over the years, where they are appealed date if we’re not doing that at this point in time? outside of the jurisdiction of the tribunal itself. So were that to be successful, as it typically is when decisions of tribunals Hon. H. Bains: I can’t even contemplate any situation are taken to the Court Of Appeal and overturned, would when there would be a requirement to charge a fee, because there be a process to correct the website — that this decision we have no intention of charging fees. But this does have has been overturned? enabling language. In the future, if the government decides, through regulations, they can charge. Tat’s just enabling Hon. H. Bains: As I understand, if it goes through judicial language. But then, certainly, there would be a consultation. review, goes to the court and the court determines that no I don’t even know on what basis the fees would be charged, violation existed and exonerates the person or the employer, as the member asked. You know, cost recovery — I don’t then of course. Tat’s the court order and that website will be know. I can’t contemplate any of those situations at this time, corrected. because we have no intention of charging fees.

Sections 68 to 76 inclusive approved. J. Martin: Just to clarify, we have specifcally put language in the legislation that allows the provision of charging fees, On section 77. potentially, down the road, but we’re not able to articulate what those fees might be used for. Hon. H. Bains: I move the amendment to section 77(2) and (3) standing in my name in the orders of the day. Hon. H. Bains: Yes. We have no intention of charging [SECTION 77 (2) and (3), by adding the underlined text as shown: fees. If there was any intention, we would have added fees (2) If service is by ordinary mail or registered mail, the notice, de- now, because we’re very, very cognizant of the fact that we cision, determination or demand is deemed to be served 8 days afer want to make the system smooth — no cost to register or the notice, decision, determination or demand is mailed. to license. Tat’s the purpose. We have clearly said there (3) If service is by email or by fax, the notice, decision, determination or demand is deemed to be served 3 days afer the notice, decision, will be no fee. determination or demand is transmitted.] But this is enabling language, as many other legislations have similar languages that governments in the future, if Amendment approved. they decide…. It could be any number of circumstances that they decide that there has to be some fee, to cut abuse — Section 77 as amended approved. whatever. I don’t know. I can’t even contemplate. But I don’t contemplate any situation at this time that there will be a fee Sections 78 to 81 inclusive approved. for recruiters to license or for employers to register. 6416 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, November 7, 2018

J. Martin: I guess I bring that up as someone who recalls contemplates — the situation where three years retroactivity when B.C. Parks assured us all that they’d never be charging of a regulation would be required in this case? fees. But with that, I have no further questions. I can recall, as minister, dealing with some legislation that was made retroactive, getting roundly questioned on S. Tomson: Just on section 82, just back to the fees. that. What situations would be envisaged where you would I know the minister has committed that he’s saying he’s require three years retroactivity on the regulations in here, not going to charge fees for the registry or for either the when you’re setting up a registry for recruiters and recruiters or the employers. Does the minister have an employers going forward, and you’re not going to have the estimate on what the cost of setting up the registry service registry in place? will be, the establishment of the website, the administra- How can you apply regulations retroactively for tion of the program? something that you’ve just put the legal requirements in place for people to join now? What’s envisaged in needing Hon. H. Bains: Tis legislation actually creates a legal retroactivity in the regulation? framework for us to have authority to build the registry and other components that support the registry. Te frst Hon. H. Bains: I’m advised that this type of language is step — we received $250,000 this fscal year to research, common any time other legislation is brought in here. In the consult and capture what was needed to aford the legisla- event that something wasn’t contemplated, we can catch it as tion to be tabled. part of the transitional regulations. [6:25 p.m.] Right now we don’t see that there will be any situation that Once this law receives royal assent, then we will take the I could contemplate, but there may be something. Tat’s why next steps, which means: how do we build technology to this kind of language, I’m advised, is quite common in other support the registry and other resourcing needs? Tat will all acts when you bring them to the House. be part of the 2019 budget process. Sections 83 to 86 inclusive approved. Section 82 approved. Title approved. On section 83. Hon. H. Bains: I move that the committee rise and report S. Tomson: One question on section 83, which is 83(3). the bill complete with amendments. It talks about: “For 3 years afer the date…comes into force, a regulation made under this section may be made retroactive Motion approved. to a date not earlier than the date…comes into force.” Can the minister advise why this provision is there and what he Te committee rose at 6:29 p.m. Hansard Reporting Services

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