Thursday Volume 494 25 June 2009 No. 99

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 25 June 2009

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serves the south Devon economy and the need for House of Commons investment in road infrastructure—most notably the A380 Kingskerswell bypass. Thursday 25 June 2009 Paul Clark: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that there is always a need to look across a region The House met at half-past Ten o’clock to examine demand, the economy, proposed developments and the transport infrastructure. We know the importance of having a good transport infrastructure, be it for PRAYERS people travelling to and from work, for businesses moving their goods or for people visiting those businesses’ headquarters in order to trade. That is why the Department [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] has been undertaking processes to give powers and responsibilities to regions and local areas so that they can prioritise their requirements within a given region. Oral Answers to Questions Cross-Border Transport Networks

2. Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with ministerial TRANSPORT colleagues in the devolved Administrations on cross- border improvements to transport networks. [282099] The Minister of State was asked— The Minister of State, Department for Transport Exeter Airport (Mr. Sadiq Khan): My noble Friend the Secretary of State for Transport met Stewart Stevenson MSP and 1. Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): What recent John Swinney MSP in April to discuss progress on the assessment the Secretary of State has made of the Department’s work on High Speed 2 and its potential adequacy of road links to Exeter airport; and if he will benefits for Scotland. The Secretary of State has also make a statement. [282098] given evidence to the Scottish Parliament Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee and met The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Committee members to discuss various matters. (Paul Clark): First, Mr. Speaker, may I congratulate Additionally, Ministers in the Department have met you on your appointment as Speaker of the House? The Ieuan Wyn Jones AM to discuss Welsh cross-border rail Ministers in the Department for Transport look forward and road issues. to working with you on the business. On 6 May, the Department gave outline investment Gordon Banks: Mr. Speaker, may I congratulate you approval for £12 million towards the east of Exeter on your new duties? phase 2 improvements. Measures include improving the I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. The junction access to Exeter airport. This investment was economic success of devolution is largely dependent on agreed after assessing the transport conditions in the efficient cross-UK transport links. He mentioned that immediate and wider area, and reflecting proposed there have been discussions with the Scottish Executive development opportunities. about High Speed 2 and the prospect of a London to Scotland high-speed line, but will he do everything that Mr. Swire: I am grateful to the Minister for his he can to ensure that this turns into reality and to answer. Improving road connections to the airport is all ensure that devolution brings economic success to Scotland? very well, but, given the Government’s stated commitment to a high-speed rail network and the desire of the Mr. Khan: I thank my hon. Friend for his supplementary airport to become carbon-neutral by 2015, what additional question. High Speed 2 will report to the Government resources can the Government make available to local by the end of this year. We have said to the Scottish councils to ensure a reduction in carbon emissions and Government that the High Speed 2 company would be congestion resulting from airport traffic? happy to meet them at any point, and we have also recommended that they have a representative on the Paul Clark: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that relevant reference group. We believe in investment, in the Department for Transport’s overriding goals are to these challenging times, but we also recognise the benefits deal with congestion and with climate change. We have of a proposed route that goes all the way to Scotland, imposed strict rules in relation to climate change, and rather than stopping in Manchester, as some people they are monitored independently. The work that needs have proposed. to be done at local level to ensure joined-up thinking on business and housing development and on transport Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Is the Minister requirements is part of the regional funding allocations aware of the sardine express? It is the Arriva Trains process. We have more than doubled the money that is Wales service that goes from Wales to Shropshire, then going into local transport provision. on to other parts of the United Kingdom. My concern is that people are being crushed into its carriages, Mr. Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): The Minister because there are often only two carriages when four are ought also to consider the road network to the west required to meet the demand on the line. If there were a of Exeter, as well as the way in which Exeter airport sudden halt or accident, far more people would be 921 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 922 injured or, possibly, killed as a result of that congestion asked them what they wanted. The issues my hon. in the carriages. Will the Minister undertake to meet Friend has just raised were the same issues that they representatives of Arriva Trains Wales and get an raised: they wanted less crowding and they wanted to undertaking from them that they will take action to feel safer on the stations, and that has an impact on deal with this, as it has been going on for far too long? both staff and passengers. In awarding this most recent franchise, we took on board some of the passengers’ Mr. Speaker: Unfortunately, the question went on for wishes. I will ensure that we continue to speak not just rather too long as well; questions must be briefer. to Members of Parliament, but to communities, so that when we award franchises, we can take into account the Mr. Khan: The one thing I do not apologise for is important points that my hon. Friend has raised. longer trains; we need them. The hon. Gentleman raised an important point about the quality of service that Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): The Minister passengers receive, which is not good enough on some will be well aware of the slight downward trend in trains. I am happy to arrange the meeting he mentioned transport crime, so will he acknowledge that the Mayor and it would be good if he were present so that he could of London’s ban on alcohol on the London underground express and articulate the concerns that his constituents was a contributory factor? Will the Minister also consider have put to him. that as the recession starts to bite and unemployment starts to rise, that trend may well be reversed? Mr. Eric Martlew (Carlisle) (Lab): You, Mr. Speaker, will be aware that there is no greater enthusiast for the Mr. Khan: It pains me to do so, but I congratulate the high-speed line than myself. As the line passes through Mayor of London on the alcohol ban. We supported my Carlisle constituency on the way to Scotland, will him in doing that and helped with the necessary byelaws the funding be a Scottish or a UK responsibility? The to make it work. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that line starts in London and in Glasgow and meets somewhere crime has gone down not just on the railways, but on in the middle. the tube system as well, largely as a result of the investment in more British Transport police and more Mr. Khan: I thank my hon. Friend for his really police and community support officers on the tube as helpful question. He will be aware that the Department well. The danger is, of course, that with some parties for Transport is responsible for cross-border franchise recommending cuts, that could mean cutting those police train services, and that we work closely with the Welsh and PCSOs, which I think would have the impact of Assembly and the Scottish Executive. The important making crime go up again. thing is to ensure that the quality of service that passengers receive is the right one. It is also important to have proper communications between Members on both sides Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): of the border. There are examples of good practice, but What support can my right hon. Friend offer to the also, I am afraid, of bad practice, but I will endeavour British Transport police in its work on protecting passengers to ensure that we learn the lessons so that the quality of in normal times as well as in its counter-terrorism work? service that passengers receive is seamless. Mr. Khan: In my new role, I am looking forward to Violence Against Public Transport Staff working with my hon. Friend in her Select Committee role. She raises a very important issue. As we know, 3. John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): there are record numbers working for the British Transport What representations he has received on reducing levels police and more than 3,000 community support officers. of violence against public transport staff; and if he will Bearing in mind London and the other potential strategic make a statement. [282100] targets, she is right about the importance of the British Transport police working with the security services. I The Minister of State, Department for Transport reassure my hon. Friend that my noble Friend the (Mr. Sadiq Khan): I deplore violence against staff. Both Secretary of State is committed, as we are in the House my father and father-in-law worked in public transport of Commons, to ensuring that we have the best possible for more than 40 years, so I well understand the huge and safest transport system in the world. impact of physical or verbal violence on working people and their families. If we are to run an effective transport Lifeline Flights system, it is essential that staff feel safe when carrying out their duties. That is why we are continuing to work with key stakeholders to improve the personal security 4. Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) of transport staff as well as passengers. (LD): What recent representations he has received on the future of lifeline flights within the UK; and if he John Robertson: I thank my right hon. Friend for his will make a statement. [282101] answer, but does he agree that overcrowding and lack of supervision are part of the problem, particularly on the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport railways, and that we need longer trains, less overcrowding (Paul Clark): The Department has received little and more supervisory staff so that the staff themselves correspondence on existing lifeline services in Scotland can feel safer? and Wales. There have been calls to introduce public service obligations on some domestic routes to London, Mr. Khan: One thing we did in respect of the most although no formal applications have been received. recent franchise we awarded was to take the passenger Our policy on this subject is set out in the published experience into account. We spoke to passengers and guidance of 2005. 923 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 924

Mr. Carmichael: I am grateful for that answer, but in Does the Minister accept that lifeline flights require my constituency, which has genuine lifeline routes, there healthy regional airports? Between higher taxes, new is growing concern about the increasing cost and the charges for spectrum, and now an imposed blank cheque decreasing quality of service provided to local people for security costs, does he see a future for regional since Flybe took over the franchise. Is he prepared to set airports? up a meeting, perhaps including his opposite number in the Scottish Government and local representatives, to Paul Clark: In our aviation White Paper, as the hon. see how the Minister’s regulatory functions and the Gentleman will be well aware, we are clear that regional Scottish Government’s funding obligations might all be airports have an important role to play in supporting brought together to ensure that the people who need the individuals and businesses and giving people freedom services most get the best quality service? and choice. We shall support that position.

Paul Clark: Let me make it clear that we continue to Rail Services (London/South Wales) support the use of public service obligations as a means of helping to subsidise important lifeline services for communities such as that represented by the hon. 5. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/ Gentleman. Some of the issues to which he refers will Co-op): What steps he is taking to improve rail services be partly subject to a commercial decision-making process, between London and south Wales. [282102] but we will continue to consider how to ensure that people in such communities have lifeline services. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr. Sadiq Khan): We are taking a number of steps. Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): From 2016, passengers will benefit from new super-express Lifeline services are important, and my constituents trains, which will reduce typical journey times and add also have Flybe as the sole operator from airports more seats between London and south Wales. In addition, within the islands to airports in central Scotland. However, we are considering the case for electrifying the busiest anyone who books with Flybe and changes their travel parts of the Great Western main line, which appears plans with advance notice will not get a refund. Does promising. Meanwhile, the performance of existing train the Minister not think that travellers and consumers services between London and south Wales has improved deserve a better deal? since we issued a remedial plan notice to First Great Western last year. Paul Clark: Indeed. The Government have been committed to ensuring that passengers get a fair deal, Alun Michael: May I take this opportunity to welcome whether on rail, buses or aircraft. Clearly, that is part of you, Mr. Speaker, to the Chair, and the Minister to his the reason for considering introducing a role for Passenger new responsibilities? Focus with regard to airline passengers. Within the When we travel by train to areas north of London, provisions that we have, we will do all that we can to those of us who have constituencies in south Wales are ensure that passengers get the best deal. As the hon. quite jealous when we see the improvements that have Gentleman understands, these are commercial matters been made on many services over the past 10 years. Will in many cases, but I undertake to consider the issues my right hon. Friend do all that he can to accelerate raised. immediate improvements in the services to Cardiff and Swansea, as well as considering electrification of the Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): I am pleased that the line in the longer term, and perhaps a late-night service Minister supports lifeline flights, but he must recognise that would allow his constituents to enjoy the benefits that the cost to the passenger of some essential flights is of Cardiff’s night-time culture? excessive, often because there is a monopoly supplier—there is no alternative. In contrast, bargain basement prices Mr. Khan: I am not sure whether that is an invitation are offered on destinations where there is competition for a date. I accept that the train service between London with rail. Does he not see merit in the Lib Dem idea of a and south Wales has for a long time suffered poorer cap on the cost of essential flights from monopoly performance than other First Great Western routes. I suppliers, with a surcharge on those flights that compete also accept my right hon. Friend’s point about the directly with rail, both to encourage modal shift and to experience of those who live north of London. Our help to fund high-speed rail? analysis is assessing a range of electrification scenarios, including taking the wires to Bristol and as far as Paul Clark: The hon. Gentleman well knows the Swansea, which I know will please him. Government’s commitment, not only in policies and words in the Chamber, but in deeds and investment in Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): May I, too, welcome high-speed rail, and in our continuing work on issues, you to the Chair, Mr. Speaker, and also support the some of which have been raised, such as improving points made by my friend from the Welsh Affairs overcrowding with additional rolling stock. Whereas Committee, the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South the Lib Dems see a bottomless pit of taxpayer’s money and Penarth (Alun Michael)? Cardiff is one of the to fund schemes that are not in balance, we will do what busiest hubs in the entire system, yet the Wales rail is required to ensure a balanced transport position, and group has been told that approach speeds are 15 mph, to ensure that lifeline services continue. which is what they have been for many decades. When the line is improved, will the Minister ensure that the Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Mr. Speaker, signalling system into Cardiff is also improved so that may I welcome you to your new post? speeds can increase? 925 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 926

Mr. Khan: That is an important point. Not only do The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport we need to ensure that there is a new generation of (Chris Mole): May I inform the right hon. Gentleman super-express trains, we need to ensure that signalling that the Secretary of State has had no recent discussions improves as well. One of the things that I hope the hon. with police forces specifically on motorway congestion? Gentleman will see over the next period is, with continued The Highways Agency takes managing the motorway investment, an improvement in the quality of services network seriously. In the event of a serious accident, the that he and his constituents receive. police are supported by traffic officers to ensure that delays are minimised and motorways are reopened promptly. Mrs. Siân C. James (Swansea, East) (Lab): May I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Speaker, and the Minister to his new post? As chairman of the all-party group on Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: The Minister mentions serious rail in Wales, we are concerned about the number of accidents, but is he aware that after quite minor accidents, services to south Wales and Wales in general. Our the police are inclined to regard the accident as a scene particular current concerns are about preserving rail of crime and to cordon off long sections of motorway, services at ports and docks in constituencies such as causing immense tailbacks, frustration, economic loss, mine, Swansea, East. Will the Minister meet the group and motorists trying to find alternatives through small to discuss those matters? towns and along small roads? Will he have a word with the Highways Agency and the police? It is a particular Mr. Khan: The short answer is yes. It is important problem at the Bristol end of the M5 during a busy that colleagues continue to raise the concerns that those holiday period, when the motorway is already congested. of us who do not travel to certain parts of the kingdom There must be a better way of dealing with those do not get to see. It is important that we meet people accidents, such as photographing them, getting the such as my hon. Friend to listen to their concerns and to vehicles off the scene and getting the traffic moving. ensure that the franchises address those issues. Chris Mole: The right hon. Gentleman will be pleased Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): May I to hear that I spoke to the chief executive of the congratulate you on your election, Mr. Speaker, and Highways Agency about the matter yesterday.He informed welcome the new ministerial team? me that a joint strategic agreement on traffic incident The Minister will be aware that the previous Secretary management has been in existence since 2006, and that of State, the right hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon), one of its aims is to improve clear-up times. The police told the House repeatedly that electrification to south-west must take as long as it takes to deal with what may be a and south Wales was a priority for the Government and potential crime scene, but the Highways Agency has that they would improve services. As the Prime Minister helped them with technology that can rapidly determine was shown yesterday, the Government are planning to and record evidence such as the position of vehicles. As cut capital expenditure after 2010. How can electrification I said earlier, following the completion of police work, to improve services remain a priority for the Government traffic officers take over to ensure that the motorway is in the face of those capital expenditure cuts after 2010? open as soon as possible. Mr. Khan: May I thoroughly disappoint the hon. Gentleman, who is a friend and a neighbouring MP? Mr. Clive Betts (Sheffield, Attercliffe) (Lab): I welcome We are examining in detail the case for electrifying the you to the Chair, Mr. Speaker, and hope that I shall diesel-operated inter-city lines—the Great Western main catch your eye on many future occasions. line, which I mentioned, and also the midland main line. I am sure my hon. Friend is aware that one of the We will make an announcement in the coming months most congested parts of the motorway network is the that will demonstrate that in challenging and tough M1 south of Sheffield, where a large number of accidents times we are willing to invest rather than make cuts. occur. Steps are being taken to widen the M1 between junctions 25 and 28, and consideration is being given to Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): May I welcome either widening it or introducing hard-shoulder running you to your new role, Mr. Speaker, and congratulate the up to junction 34. Will my hon. Friend assure me that Minister on his new post? The Stroud valley line is the whatever scheme is adopted, variable speed limits will reserve line from south Wales, from the Severn tunnel. be introduced on that section of the motorway so that There is no better way to improve those services than to we can reduce congestion, ensure smoother running at redouble the line between Swindon and Kemble. Will peak periods and, in particular, lower the high levels of the Minister ensure that that happens as a matter of pollution around Tinsley, in my constituency? extreme urgency? Mr. Khan: There is some good news on the redoubling Chris Mole: As my hon. Friend says, the combination of the line. My hon. Friend will be as aware as I am of of hard-shoulder running and the application of active the challenges in that area and will know that in these traffic management is an important tool, enabling us to difficult times we have committed to investment rather squeeze every drop of capacity out of our existing road than cuts, which have been recommended by some infrastructure. people. Motorway Congestion Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Speaker. 6. Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): What With the advent of new technology, more use is being recent discussions the Secretary of State has had with made of electronic signs on motorways, especially mobile police forces on levels of motorway congestion following electronic signs. Why are they not deployed at motorway traffic accidents. [282103] access points? Is the Minister aware that most of the 927 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 928 congestion that follows an accident is caused by new autumn 2009. This replaces a public consultation on traffic entering a motorway that drivers do not know options as there is only one viable scheme option in is shut? this case.

Chris Mole: The hon. Gentleman has put his finger Mr. Hollobone: The Highways Agency proposal is to on the button. Technology of that kind is used increasingly widen the A14 between junctions 7 and 9, which is throughout the motorway network to enable us to manage badly needed and very welcome. May I urge the Minister vehicles as effectively as possible, especially when incidents to ask the Highways Agency to investigate why it cannot arise. widen the A14 between junctions 9 and 10, because under the Government housing expansion proposals, Mrs. Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): I most of the new houses in Kettering are to be built to congratulate you, Mr. Speaker, and the new ministerial the east of the town, for which junction 10 is very team. important? What is the Minister’s estimate of the cost to the United Kingdom economy of an hour’s closure of a Chris Mole: The Government are committed to the stretch of a key motorway such as the M25 or the M62? three-lane widening in order to deliver the improved Chris Mole: We know that closure imposes costs. traffic flows more quickly to the A14 around Kettering, That is why we want to respond to incidents as effectively as that can be done within existing Highways Agency as we can. I have already set out the approach taken by land. The planned improvements are based on the the Highways Agency, in conjunction with the police, to needs of Kettering in terms of growth and development, ensure that roads are opened as quickly as possible. and as I know that the hon. Gentleman has been calling for just this sort of infrastructure investment for some Mrs. Villiers: The Government have no comprehension time, I am sure he will welcome it wholeheartedly. of the huge cost impact of these closures. They have broken their promises on congestion again and again. Community Rail Projects (East Midlands) In their entire term of office they have built less than 20 miles of new motorway, and they have a road 8. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): maintenance backlog of 13 years. Have they not manifestly What recent assessment has been made of the viability failed motorists in this country? of community rail projects in the east midlands; and if he will make a statement. [282105] Chris Mole: That was a somewhat surprising response from Her Majesty’s official Opposition, who once told The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport us to vote blue and go green. It is clear that that is no (Chris Mole): Community rail projects bring together longer their commitment if they talk of a massive local communities and the appropriate train operators. investment in motorway building and give no indication We do not expect any issues with the viability of the of how they would resource it. We are investing in three main projects in the east midlands. the nation’s infrastructure, and they clearly would not do so. David Taylor: The rail renaissance since 1997 has led to peacetime record numbers of passengers, which demand Mr. Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): Should some attention on the constraints on capacity. Will the the police clear congestion using British-assembled vehicles? Minister discuss with me the “Connecting Communities” Can my hon. Friend confirm or deny the rumour that report from the Association of Train Operating Companies there is currently a British-assembled Mini awaiting of earlier this month, which identifies the Leicester to allocation in the ministerial car pool? Will he show Burton line—the national forest line through North-West leadership and volunteer to use it, and will he cut Leicestershire—as having a good benefit-to-cost ratio? through the petty bureaucracy that allows— Might we have a look at that on site in order to correct Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that we shall have to leave the earlier impressions of Lord Adonis, who was rather it there. lukewarm about community rail in the east midlands? Chris Mole: It is clearly for the Highways Agency Chris Mole: I am, of course, happy to speak to my and/or the police to ensure that they obtain best value hon. Friend about the scheme, but it is primarily a for the taxpayer when purchasing vehicles. However, scheme of regional significance, and therefore the capital if my hon. Friend has any new information that he cost of the national forest line would need to be funded wishes to share with me, I shall be happy to meet him to through the regional funding allocation. Unfortunately, discuss it. the east midlands region has not seen this project as a regional priority for funding through that route, but A14 (Kettering) any initial subsidy would have to be funded by local authorities for at least the first three years, although the 7. Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): When the Government would consider taking the service into Highways Agency plans to initiate (a) ramp metering at normal franchise arrangements once there was a sound junctions with, and (b) public consultation on the business case. widening of, the A14 around Kettering. [282104] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): (Chris Mole): It is proposed that ramp metering will be May I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Speaker? delivered on the A14 at junctions 4, 7 and 8 by spring Does the Minister think that a community rail project 2011. A public information exhibition on the proposed could further improve the long-term viability of a reopened widening of the A14 around Kettering is planned for Beverley to York rail line, and will he accept an invitation 929 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 930 from local campaigners for the reopening of that line to Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers) on the come to our area to hear the arguments in favour it and Front Bench. If she wishes to speak to me afterwards, I the benefits it would bring? can give her a response that is not a chunter.

Chris Mole: As part of our general commitment to Topical Questions the development of the railways, we are always keen to hear of proposals, but the Government have made T1. [282118] Mr. Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) significant funds available through the regional funding (Con): If he will make a statement on his departmental allocation schemes, which are essentially a regional responsibilities. concern, and proposals do need to be prioritised through those mechanisms to ensure that they genuinely have The Minister of State, Department for Transport the support of people in regions such as that which the (Mr. Sadiq Khan): With permission, Mr. Speaker, as hon. Gentleman represents. this is the first of what I hope will be many Transport questions, I wish to outline briefly the priorities of the Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester, South) (Lab): May I ask Department for Transport. The new ministerial team is the Minister to look again at the ATOC report to which committed to making progress on three main priorities. my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Leicestershire First, we want to provide extra capacity on our transport (David Taylor) referred, and to recognise the powerful networks on a sustainable basis, to meet increased demand. case it makes for the Leicester to Burton line? That is Secondly, we want to move quickly, and for good, to one of a number of similar schemes throughout the low-carbon technologies and practices within each mode country that are not only of local significance, but also of transport. Thirdly, we want to improve the attractiveness potentially of considerable national benefit. I ask him of public transport by making it possible to make to look again at this, and to recognise that national door-to-door journeys more easily, in whole or in part, benefit and also the need for Government investment to by that means. achieve that benefit. Mr. Timpson: The Minister may be aware that the Chris Mole: I can assure my hon. Friend that I have Office of Rail Regulation has failed to find funding for looked at the ATOC publication, “Connecting the regeneration or rebuilding of Crewe station in this Communities”, which came out this month. It looked at funding cycle. Although some basic alterations have the opportunity to provide better transport connections recently been made, they fall woefully short of what is for communities that have grown in recent years, but necessary for the proper functioning of this major which do not necessarily have good access to the interchange of which the town should be proud. Can he rail network, including connections on the national undertake to ask the Secretary of State to look at forest line. enabling those long overdue improvements?

Street Works Mr. Khan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the interest he shows in the regeneration of that important part of 10. Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): What the country. The Crewe railway gateway scheme was recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of confirmed as a regional priority for investment in February. the implementation of permit schemes for street works; The Department’s officials are ready to discuss with and if he will make a statement. [282107] Cheshire the way forward on this scheme once the major scheme business case has been submitted. Either The Minister of State, Department for Transport the Secretary of State or I will write to the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sadiq Khan): The permit scheme regulations were to give him an update, and perhaps he can be involved made on 28 November 2007, and came into force on in the process too. 1 April 2008. No permit schemes to control works on the highway are currently in place. We have undertaken Natascha Engel (North-East Derbyshire) (Lab): The to report to Parliament on the evaluation of the first Secretary of State, who could be called the Minister for implemented permit schemes, following their first year bicycling, knows of the massive increase in the number of operation. We hope to make a decision on an application of people choosing to cycle to work. Given the increase from Kent county council for permit scheme powers in the number of cyclists on roads that are already within the next month. congested, what are the Government doing to ensure cyclists’ safety and to encourage more people to get on Sir Nicholas Winterton: The street works permit schemes their bikes? were designed, as the Minister knows, to make utilities companies carry out work at the same time, in order to Mr. Khan: My hon. Friend raises an important issue, reduce congestion for the motorist, inconvenience to and we need to ensure that more people cycle and are the pedestrian and loss of earnings for retail outlets. safe while doing so. She will pleased to learn that an Since the scheme came into force on 1 April 2008, as he announcement will be made when our carbon reduction said, how many permits have been granted, and have strategy is unveiled next month, and I think she will be they been successful? very pleased with some of the things the strategy says.

Mr. Khan: The hon. Gentleman may not have heard T2. [282119] Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and my answer: none have been granted. Local authorities Shetland) (LD): The shipping Minister is, I know, recognise the additional powers that they have and aware that late last year the Maritime Coastguard we hope to make a decision on Kent next month— Agency was involved in, and approved, the design of [Interruption.] I hear some chuntering from the hon. bulkers for the transportation of waste meat products 931 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 932 from the abattoir on Orkney for disposal on the Scottish of State to request a meeting to discuss those concerns—will mainland. Despite that expensive effort, Northlink ferries my right hon. Friend arrange such a meeting as soon as this week refused to carry the products because of the possible? escape of a small number of maggots on to the car deck. That refusal threatens the future of meat production Mr. Khan: I have with me the letter that my hon. on Orkney, which is an agricultural community. Can the Friend wrote to the Secretary of State, who is happy to Minister assure me that the MCA will not allow itself to meet him to discuss the concerns he has raised. I know be used in this way, as that poses a real threat to the they are concerns not just to him but to his constituents, future economic viability of our community? and I will ensure that the meeting will, hopefully, alleviate some of the concerns he has raised. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Paul Clark): The Maritime and Coastguard Agency’s T4. [282121] Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): role is to act for the safety of ships and their crew and The cost of installing and procuring a speed camera is passengers. Equally, it has a responsibility under health £40,000 plus the ongoing maintenance costs, compared and safety regulations for cargo of animal by-products with only £7,000 for a vehicle-activated speed sign. Has that are liable to leak. The hon. Gentleman will be a proper cost-benefit analysis been done of those two aware that last autumn discussions were held and a methods of road safety control, and will the Minister route through was found, which involved improvements have discussions with his colleagues in the Department to the containers. I understand that there has been an for Communities and Local Government to extol the issue recently with maggots escaping from the trailer, opportunities to save money while maintaining road and that there are one or two other issues. We will safety standards? certainly ensure that the MCA is not used, and that it carries out its duties properly. We will look further into Paul Clark: We take every opportunity to take the the matter. steps necessary to ensure that our roads are as safe as possible for all users, and that we use everything available Mr. David Clelland (Tyne Bridge) (Lab): I wonder to us. I am delighted to tell the House that the road whether Ministers have yet had the opportunity to casualty statistics for 2008, announced today, show that speak to their counterparts in Holyrood about the the number of deaths has fallen by 14 per cent. Although importance of the A1 between Newcastle and Edinburgh that figure is now down to just 2,500, we cannot be to communities on both sides of the border, not least complacent and we need to take every step possible to given its appalling safety record. Does the Minister ensure that the roads continue to be safe, and to meet agree that the regional funding allocation system is our goal of having the safest roads in the world. totally inadequate to deal with the urgent need to upgrade that road? Will he enter into discussions about Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): May I, too, bringing about a definitive plan to finance and implement welcome you to your role, Mr. Speaker? I am delighted urgently the dualling of the road from Newcastle to to see you there. Edinburgh? Northern Rail, which serves my constituents, faces a 34 per cent. increase in passenger numbers—to 84 million— Mr. Speaker: Order. I do need briefer questions from since being given a contract based on a steady state in now on. 2004. Does the Minister agree that there is a pressing need for new rolling stock, because otherwise everybody will be standing on those journeys? Mr. Khan: The requirements for being categorised as a road of national importance are based on the amount Chris Mole: The Department is very much aware of and type of traffic flow on the road, and take into the pressures that passengers face on some northern consideration whether traffic is redirected on to other train services. We hope that at some stage in the near routes. The case for the A1 north of Newcastle is not future, we can relieve some of those pressures. robust enough for us to consider re-categorisation, but I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss this matter, because I know it is of real concern to his constituents. T7. [282124] Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The Department’s 2008 road transport forecasts predict a one-third increase in vehicle traffic by 2025. T3. [282120] Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): Turning to How much of that is driven by unacceptably high levels strategic rail links in the south-west, Lord Adonis told of immigration, and how on earth is this country going me a few weeks ago that after the Axminster loop is to cope? completed, he will reconsider the question of dualling the track between Salisbury and Exeter on the Mr. Khan: I have seen lots of tenuous causal links, Waterloo to Exeter route. Can the Minister confirm although not one involving immigration, but I can tell that that is going to happen? the hon. Gentleman that the decisions taken by the Government mean that £6 billion will be invested in our The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport roads that would not have been available had the (Chris Mole): I can confirm that that is actively being Conservatives been in power. investigated. Mrs. Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Two disabled Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ constituents of mine have faced difficulty when travelling Co-op): There are growing concerns about both the by air. One has pulmonary hypertension and was charged service to passengers on the east coast main line and the extra for oxygen on the flight. The other is a man with future of the franchise. I have written to the Secretary Parkinson’s. Despite having assisted travel, he faced 933 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 934 humiliating three-hour waits at Heathrow airport without The Solicitor-General: I served with the hon. Gentleman access to a toilet, food, water or assistance. That cannot on the Work and Pensions Committee and I know that be acceptable: what steps can Ministers take to make he cares about low pay, but he needs to change his party sure that the airlines appreciate their responsibility for urgently. The Tories voted against the Equality Bill on disabled passengers? Second Reading, even though it will bring in help regarding unequal pay on a gender basis. Moreover, Paul Clark: At the outset, let me say that I am they have just voted in Committee against business even appalled at the examples given by my hon. Friend, being asked to disclose pay figures that would make the which I should be more than happy to discuss with her. pay gap transparent, and thus exert pressure on firms to The provision of oxygen, whether free or for a charge, is press for equality for women. I am afraid that the hon. clearly a matter for the airline operators, and I recommend Gentleman is a siren voice, and a lone one, from the that people look at their websites to see what is available Tory Benches. I am very glad to say that this afternoon before they travel. The key UK airlines provide oxygen the BBC will publish pay figures for its top 100 executives— free of charge, but I am looking forward to next week’s debate in Westminster Hall. Mr. Speaker: Order. We need to move on, Minister. I would like to move now to David Amess. T8. [282125] Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) Mr. Amess: The Minister is simply not answering the (Con): The Government will be aware that many question. She has not gone into any detail about the country areas have huge difficulty maintaining their criteria involved, and I should have thought that the roads and lanes. The maintenance backlog is massive, Government would have more influence on pay disparity not least because of the heavy vehicles that use the in the public sector. Will she accept my party’s suggestion lanes. What are the Government going to do to help that every secondary school in the country should have local authorities in rural areas maintain country lanes a dedicated and professional careers adviser? and roads to a proper standard? The Solicitor-General: Another forlorn and futile gesture Paul Clark: The investment going to the regions from the Tory party. We will make progress in the public through local transport plans and other funding streams sector through the Equality Bill and the regulations on has more than doubled in the past 10 years. It is for disclosure that it will put in place, which the hon. local authorities to target that money appropriately, but Gentleman’s party voted against. In Committee, his rural roads are central to the new road safety strategy party has systematically voted against all the provisions that is currently out to consultation. We want to focus that would help to improve equal pay in both the public on finding engineering and other solutions to improve and private sectors—a particular pity, since poverty safety on rural roads. academics are now clear that the most important step to eliminate child poverty is to bring in equal pay for women, but clearly the Tories do not care about that either. WOMEN AND EQUALITY Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): But is my hon. and learned Friend aware that the largest pay gap in Britain The Minister for Women and Equality was asked— is in the financial services sector, where full-time women Gender Pay Gap are paid 55 per cent. less than full-time men, and part-timers 39 per cent. less? As we own many of the 1. Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): banks responsible for that poor pay, what can the On what criteria her most recent estimate of the gender Government do? pay gap in the (a) public and (b) private sector is based. The Solicitor-General: My hon. Friend is right. The [282089] reason why she is able to quote those figures is that the Government asked the Equality and Human Rights 4. Mr. David Amess (Southend, West) (Con): On what Commission to look into the appalling pay inequity in criteria her most recent estimate of the gender pay gap that sector and make recommendations for the way in the (a) public and (b) private sector is based. forward. Let me assure my hon. Friend that when we [282092] get the Equality Bill through Committee, despite the best efforts of the Tories to block it, there will be an The Solicitor-General (Vera Baird): The criteria used impact in that sector, too. for estimating the gender pay gap are the same for the public and private sectors. The estimate uses data published Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): I think we by the Office for National Statistics that show that the have just heard a quick claim from the Opposition to median hourly gender pay gap for all workers, both full put up the pay of public sector workers. In areas such as and part-time, is 28.3 per cent. in the private sector and mine in Aberdeen, men generally work in the private 22 per cent. in the public sector. sector in the oil and gas industries with very high wages, while women work in the public sector for much lower Andrew Selous: I am concerned that the Government wages. That is why we have a gender pay gap whereby continue to set such a poor example with their own women earn only two thirds of what men earn. staff. The Financial Times has obtained unpublished figures from the ONS showing gender pay gaps within The Solicitor-General: My hon. Friend again makes the same grade of 12.5 per cent. in the Ministry of clear how little concern there is among the Opposition Defence and 19.5 per cent. in the Met Office. Can the about equal pay for women. We will make an analysis Government not do better with their own staff? this very afternoon of the BBC’s top 100 executive 935 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 936 salaries to see where the gender pay gap is there. Mr. Bellingham: I thank the Minister for that reply. Is Transparency is hugely important—it is a pity the Tories she aware that many female entrepreneurs employ agency do not understand that. workers? Such workers very often enjoy their flexibility and, indeed, are well paid. They are very concerned Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): The hon. about the EU agency workers directive, so can the and learned Lady really knows better than that. She Minister confirm that the Government are still broadly knows perfectly well that in Committee, we made it very sceptical about the directive and that they will ensure clear that we recognise there is a real problem. The proper and full consultation? argument is over the solutions. The Office for National Statistics made it clear that the gender pay gap is Maria Eagle: I commend the hon. Gentleman for the 12.8 per cent. The Government’s proposals in clause 73 particular interest he has shown in this matter over a of the Equality Bill, which we opposed because we number of months. He is right that consultation on the think they will not analyse the problem, will tackle only directive is ongoing—it closes on 31 July. Those who direct and indirect discrimination. How much of the wish to have an input into our response may do so in 12.8 per cent. pay gap does the Minister think is accounted Exeter, Birmingham, Glasgow and London over the for by direct and indirect discrimination? The Equal next month or so. We intend to ensure that flexibility Opportunities Commission research suggests less than still remains for agency workers while protecting their 5 per cent. rights, which is another important consideration.

The Solicitor-General: The pay gap is 28.3 per cent. in Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): I think my hon. the private sector and 22 per cent. in the public sector. Friend would agree that a lot of people are forced into The Tory figures leave out part-time workers. The Tories becoming an agency worker. It was clear that the people do that all the time, clearly thinking that part-time who lost their jobs at the Mini factory in Oxfordshire workers are some separate breed of second-class citizens, had no rights and no way of defending themselves, and as they are mostly women. The hon. Member for Weston- the reason why they could be sacked overnight was that super-Mare (John Penrose) made a long speech in they were forced into agency working. The fact is that Committee asserting that discrimination was a very that is not a way forward or a solution that we should minor reason for unequal pay, which is not what most support. trade unionists and others in the field believe. Even he did not say there was no discriminatory unequal pay, Maria Eagle: I agree that some people do not choose yet the Tories voted against the very measure that would to be agency workers but have that chosen for them. tackle it. The directive and our policy are driven by a desire to ensure not only flexibility but fairness. Protection in Lynne Featherstone (Hornsey and Wood Green) (LD): employment is just as important as flexibility. The trick Although we disagree on mandatory and voluntary pay is to get the balance right, and we intend to do that. audits, if we are to have voluntary pay gender information and it has not worked by 2013—because the matrix has Age Discrimination not worked or whatever—what threshold will the Minister be looking at to determine whether the scheme has not 3. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): What worked? What percentage of companies will need to recent representations she has received on age discrimination have voluntarily displayed at that point? against under 18-year-olds. [282091]

The Solicitor-General: That is a really good question. The Parliamentary Secretary, Government Equalities As the hon. Lady knows, the commission, the TUC, the Office (Michael Jabez Foster): We recently received CBI and other employer and employee organisations representations on age discrimination against children will be working on what we should measure. They will aged under 18 from organisations including Young also report annually on how the work is progressing. Equals, 11 Million, the Association of School and Part of their consideration now will be exactly how we College Leaders and the Equality and Human Rights should measure that progress. Commission. We have also discussed the issue with children’s groups, including at the Government Equalities Office senior stakeholder group, and the Equality and Female Entrepreneurs Diversity Forum.

2. Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): Jo Swinson: I am glad that the Minister mentions What plans she has to increase the number of female Young Equals and I am sure he has read its excellent entrepreneurs. [282090] report, “Making the case”, which details harmful age discrimination against young people, so how can the The Minister of State, Government Equalities Office Government justify ignoring that evidence and excluding (Maria Eagle): The Government recognise the vital under-18s from protections in the Equality Bill? contribution that women entrepreneurs are making in building our economy. Women-led businesses contribute Michael Jabez Foster: We all agree that young people £45 billion to the UK economy. Women can get advice deserve the best possible start in life, but the most and support through the Business Link network. In appropriate and effective way to deliver better opportunities addition, we are funding a network of women’s enterprise and services for our young people is through targeted ambassadors to inspire more women to start their own initiatives, which is why, in January, we announced an business, and piloting women’s business centres that extra 350,000 apprenticeship places, half of which we provide specific business advice. expect to go to 16 to 18-year-olds. It is also why we are 937 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 938 investing £225 million over three years to support local they will have to make such decisions. The consultation communities. We need to support vulnerable young document will come out very shortly, and it will help us people who become homeless. Such targeted initiatives to sculpt this so that we get all the bad things out and will have the greatest effect for the benefit of young put all the good things in. I hope the hon. Gentleman people. will contribute to that document. Gender Pay Gap Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): The Equality Bill is a great piece of legislation, but it would be even better if under-18s were included. The Young Equals 7. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): campaign has been mentioned, and young people are What recent discussions she has had on the extent of saying powerfully that they feel discriminated against the gender pay gap for those in full-time and part-time and excluded. Is there any way in which we can make work. [282095] them feel part of the Bill? The Parliamentary Secretary, Government Equalities Office (Michael Jabez Foster): I refer my hon. Friend to Michael Jabez Foster: As my hon. Friend suggests, the answer previously given. most of the arguments in favour of extending age provisions to under-18s seem to arise due to negative David Taylor: I am grateful for that answer. Does my attitudes and opinions about young people and mistrust hon. Friend agree with the chief executive of the Equality of them. It is important that that be dealt with, but and Human Rights Commission, who has said that the attitudes alone are not the basis of discrimination under Equal Pay Act 1970 is the Bill, so we would not solve the problem simply by including under-18s in its measures. “no longer fit for purpose”, and does my hon. Friend agree that we need to look Equality Bill afresh at what modern equal pay legislation should look like? We should head off problems in the first instance, 5. Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): What recent and not wait until they reach tribunal stage. representations she has received on the provisions of the Equality Bill affecting provision of goods and Michael Jabez Foster: Indeed, and that is why the services on the basis of age. [282093] Equality Bill will ensure that provisions are made to monitor equal pay and make a difference for the future. The Solicitor-General (Vera Baird): We recently received Equality Bill representations on the Equality Bill’s provisions on age discrimination from Age Concern, Help the Aged, the 8. Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): What Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Association representations she has received on the provisions in of British Insurers, Saga and Kingfisher. We have held the Equality Bill on provision of goods and services on extensive discussions with a wide range of stakeholders the basis of age. [282096] to inform our work on a consultation document to be issued shortly. The Parliamentary Secretary, Government Equalities Office (Michael Jabez Foster): I refer the hon. Lady to Mr. Swire: A number of my constituents who are the response given earlier today. pensioners are either regularly refused insurance, or obliged to pay larger premiums because of their age. Angela Watkinson: I thank the Minister for that Given that the Bill is intended to go against any form of answer, but it is not only older people who are encompassed discrimination, including age discrimination, will the in the problem. Very young drivers are a high-risk Minister give an assessment of how existing legislation group, and the insurance industry needs assurances that is working regarding insurance for elderly people? it will be able to undertake proper risk assessment and make sure that its insurance premiums reflect that The Solicitor-General: Of course, there is not a ban additional risk. on age discrimination in the delivery of goods, facilities and services at present. The new Bill will be fed by the Michael Jabez Foster: It is clear that there is consultation. If discrimination is actuarially justified, it discrimination against older people in particular, but of will not be age discrimination—it will operate on a course, before any regulations are made, the industry different basis. At the moment, there is no need for any will be properly consulted; that, indeed, is the purpose supplier to decide whether there is justification, but now of the Government’s proposals. 939 25 JUNE 2009 National Security Strategy 940

National Security Strategy As I mentioned, today the Government published, in a written ministerial statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, the first cybersecurity strategy. 11.31 am As a result, we will establish an office of cybersecurity Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) (Urgent Question): in the Cabinet Office to lead on cybersecurity policy To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department issues, and a cybersecurity operations centre, a multi-agency if he will make a statement on updates to the national body, based alongside GCHQ in Cheltenham. That security strategy, including policy on cybersecurity. organisation will lead on operations and technical capabilities, which we will examine. The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr. David As a result of the new strategy, we will develop a Hanson): At 10 o’clock this morning, my right hon. cyber industrial strategy for the UK’s critical security Friend the Prime Minister made a written ministerial needs, in the same way as we have a defence industrial statement, in which he laid before the House this year’s strategy; we will develop cybersecurity skills for the update to the national security strategy. Accompanying UK, plugging existing gaps and creating more high-tech the strategy was the first national cybersecurity strategy employment opportunities; we will make critical systems for the United Kingdom. Last week, the Government in the public and private sectors more resilient and presented to the House the “Digital Britain” strategy. enhance our ability to detect attack; we will develop This country is well placed to take advantage of the international law and doctrines of national defence in opportunities of the digital age, but we can seize those cyberspace, working with other countries; we will consider opportunities only if people are confident that they can better advice to business and citizens about the security-risk operate safely in cyberspace. picture and the steps that they need to take to address it; and we will develop new strategies for tackling terrorist Every day, millions of people across the UK—our and criminal use of cyberspace with our colleagues in constituents—rely on the services and information that the Association of Chief Police Officers and its strategy make up cyberspace. Indeed, 65 per cent. of UK households on cybercrime, which is due out shortly. have access to the internet, and the figure is growing by We plan emergency responses, and the new centre will about 8 per cent. a year. The national security strategy, test the UK’s ability to respond to major attacks, which published for the first time by the Government last we obviously believe that we can prevent, but which we March and updated this year, sets out an honest and need to consider. As with our national security, it will be transparent appraisal of the risks that we face, including important that the Government’s powers are used the threat that organised crime poses to our country. proportionately and in a way that is consistent with civil Organised crime costs us around £20 billion a year, and liberty issues, as I know the hon. Member for Reigate we have a duty to the British public and to British (Mr. Blunt) would wish. So, from today, we will establish industry to take measures dramatically to reduce that an ethics advisory group to advise on that issue, and cost. I shall update the House on its membership when it The Government also need to assess the threats from is formed. terrorist organisations and prepare our response to The centres will be operational in September, and them; the public would expect no less. All those threats new funding will be announced before then to meet can arise in cyberspace. As the director general of the their obligations, building on existing resources that Security Service has said, a number of nations and were allocated largely to intelligence agencies. Again, I organisations are shall report back to the House on those matters. “trying to obtain political and economic intelligence at our expense” The wider national security debate is important, and and the Government have taken forward the good start that “increasingly deploy sophisticated technical attacks, using the was made last year. We look ahead to the broad range internet to penetrate computer networks.” of national security threats, and we look at how we can prevent them. Today, we have set out in the documents We know the importance that terrorist groups, notably an updated analysis of the threats that we face, made al-Qaeda and its affiliates, place on the internet and commitments on what drives insecurity in the world—on cyberspace, which are particularly important for conflict, energy, poverty and the impact of climate propaganda reasons. We know that terrorists would like change—and published the cybersecurity strategy, which to be able to operate more effectively in cyberspace. I I hope will be the subject of some debate and interest. am not scaremongering, but we need to look at the issues. Our assessment at present is not that terrorists Britain depends very strongly on the dedicated work have the capability to mount attacks imminently, but of the armed forces, the intelligence services, the police that we must honourably prepare as terrorists become and other services in the support of those strategies. I more sophisticated. pay tribute to them all for the courage that they display every day of the week in often very difficult circumstances. Such threats from states or terrorists could affect I commend the document to the House and hope that critical national systems, but there is also a real threat to the written ministerial statement from my right hon. millions of ordinary citizens—our constituents—as well Friend the Prime Minister will be read with interest by as their transactions and the businesses for which they right hon. and hon. Members from all parts of the House. work. Online fraud generated some £52 billion worldwide in 2007. The average cost to companies of information Mr. Blunt: The Minister owes you, Mr. Speaker, and security incidents is in the range of £10,000 to £20,000. the House an apology for the public handling of this For a large company, the cost can be as high as strategy. As we speak, the Prime Minister is at Detica, a £1 million to £2 million. As the dependence on cyberspace cybersecurity company. Why is he not here making an grows, we need to ensure security, which is critical to the oral statement? There is no more important responsibility health of the nation. of government than national security, and, for a key 941 National Security Strategy25 JUNE 2009 National Security Strategy 942

[Mr. Blunt] There has been press speculation about the issue, but I guarantee that we did not brief the press beforehand. development in the critical area of cybersecurity to be If I can explain—[HON.MEMBERS: “Oh!”] If I can trailed as it has, leading to the first occasion that you, explain to hon. Members the circumstances that have Mr. Speaker, have granted an urgent question, is not given rise to press speculation—[Interruption.] only disgraceful but, more alarmingly, shambolic. The Ministers directing the strategy, who are supposed to Mr. Speaker: Order. May I interrupt the right hon. keep us safe, cannot even manage the orderly public Member for Delyn (Mr. Hanson) for a moment? I say to release of new policy. the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone), and The lack of detail on cybersecurity in the national others who are making quite a lot of noise that they are security strategy, which the Prime Minister presented damaging their own chances of asking questions from last year, was an obvious area of weakness. The security the Back Benches. industry publicly warned that the Government had Mr. Hanson: At 10 o’clock this morning, the detailed severely underestimated the dangers that cyber attack documents were published. My noble Friend Lord West poses and had accorded cybersecurity insufficient priority of Spithead has written to you, Mr. Speaker. I hope that and budget. What has galvanised the Government into you have received it by now; it has been copied to the action? Has the threat from cyber attack grown in the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt). His letter outlines past year, or has the swift and comprehensive response the circumstances of a specific aspect of today’s of the new American Administration made them realise announcement: the name of the individual who will be that their priorities were wrong? It was an immediate in charge of the said units, which was the subject of a priority for President Obama and, only four months D notice. As hon. Members will know, a D notice is a into his Administration he was reporting on the results. voluntary agreement under which the press agree not to How can we be confident that the strategy before us publish certain details. The D notice was issued two reflects the proper American sense of priority, rather days ago, rather than today. That was an error, and if I than being only a pale imitation? need to apologise to the House on behalf of the How will the new office of cybersecurity and the new Department, I will do so. The notice was issued under cybersecurity operations centre fit with the work of embargo, but that embargo was not taken by several existing agencies? We already have a number of different among the press yesterday. That is an important issue, agencies working in the area: the Centre for the Protection but the details of the statement—the key thing for the of National Infrastructure, the wider information assurance hon. Member for Reigate—are before the House in the centre and the Communications Electronic Security written ministerial statement today. Group, being the national technical authority for The hon. Gentleman said that he is concerned that information assurance, which is based at GCHQ. All we in the Government have not taken the threat seriously. the above are already co-ordinated by a Cabinet Office-unit A considerable amount of work was done by my sponsor for information assurance. The Serious Organised predecessors and by my noble Friend Lord West of Crime Agency and the police e-crime unit, based in the Spithead. Today, we have taken the opportunity to Metropolitan police, are responsible specifically for update the national security strategy and to bring forward cybercrime. the key issues. Like the President of the United States, The “Digital Britain” report, which the Government we recognise that the cyber strategy covers a growing published last week, announced the formation of a area of concern. Governance will be performed through tripartite initiative, the tripartite internet crime and security my noble Friend’s reporting to the Prime Minister and initiative, which will bring together parliamentarians, through the National Security, International Relations Government and business. The Government are in danger and Development Committee, a Cabinet Committee on of presiding over a patchwork muddle of different which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary sits and agencies and mandates, to which they have now added which will look at those issues. an ethics advisory group. It is sad that Ministers now I am genuinely happy to debate the issues at an need advice on ethics. Will the new director instigate an appropriate time. As the hon. Member for Reigate will immediate review of the mandates and achievements of know, business questions follow shortly. Government all the different agencies involved in cybersecurity, to time is not in my gift, but the hon. Gentleman can ask a avoid overlap and ensure the best use of resources? question during business questions if he wishes, and we There is wholly insufficient time to examine the strategy will consider it as part of our discussions. through the means of an urgent question, but I am This issue is important to citizens in our country, in grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for commanding the Minister respect of both business crime and international terrorism. here today. Will the Government commit, at the earliest We believe that we will get it right, but we want cross-party opportunity, to a full debate on the strategy, led by the support on the obligations because that matters to the Prime Minister and in Government time? We need a people of this country. national security council with a dedicated staff and decision-making powers at the heart of the Government. Several hon. Members rose— We are not there yet. Mr. Speaker: Order. I appeal to Back Benchers to ask Mr. Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for brief questions and to the Minister to offer brief replies. his comments. First, I assure him on behalf of my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary Mr. David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside) (Lab): Thank that we have acted entirely properly in bringing this you, Mr. Speaker; I shall try a question. As my right matter before the House. You, Mr. Speaker, will know hon. Friend will know, I raised the issue of cybercrime that this morning the Prime Minister issued a written and attack when we updated our Contest strategy earlier ministerial statement that publishes the documents. this year. I am deeply concerned that we not only 943 National Security Strategy25 JUNE 2009 National Security Strategy 944 co-ordinate correctly the organisations that can make a that we protect people’s liberty to enjoy their lives free difference, but resource them effectively. My right hon. of crime and free of the terrorist threat. We have to have Friend will know that it is crucial to put resources into a balance between individual liberties and the issues set workstreams 3 and 5, on awareness and cultural change out in the cyber strategy. I will defend civil liberties and and on technical development, research and capability. uphold rights, and that balance is extremely important. We must also put resources into the e-crime unit, run by We will work through those issues as part of our discussions. the Metropolitan police, which has already shown how The hon. Gentleman asked about the threat that has effective it can be. As my right hon. Friend updates the occurred to date. We are not aware of any major House on resources in the summer, will he tell us that compromise of national security or key systems to date, those specific areas will be resourced adequately so that but that does not mean that we are complacent. We the job can be done? brought forward the strategy precisely to ensure that we Mr. Hanson: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for put in place mechanisms to monitor potential threats his work as Home Secretary in preparing the ground for and attacks. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will understand some of these issues. Several hundred million pounds that it is not appropriate for me to go into the number are already being spent, mostly by organisations that of countries or agencies that might be involved, because are part of the GCHQ complex and the Centre for the I do not want them to know that we know they are Protection of National Infrastructure, which is part of involved. However, I assure him that we will balance the Security Service. That money comes out of a single liberties with national security. intelligence account. With my colleague Lord West of On the cost element, as I said to my right hon. Friend Spithead, I will examine the funding of new organisations the Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett), I before we establish this process in September, and I will hope to report back to the House before early October report back to the House on the details of the work about what costs are allocated to particular projects. streams that my right hon. Friend mentioned. Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I share the concern Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I support of the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) about the the official Opposition’s tabling of an urgent question way in which the Government have handled this matter. on this matter. Without it, we would not have been able Perhaps it would have been more appropriate if the to have a timely debate on the national security strategy Minister had made an oral statement. However, my or an opportunity to examine its implications. That right hon. Friend mentioned organised crime in his would have been a major problem for the House. answer to the urgent question. The director and the The strategy clearly has the potential to defend us, chairman of SOCA gave evidence to the Select Committee but it could also have a significant impact on our civil on Home Affairs this week, but no mention was made liberties. We have to take the Minister’s word for it that about the urgency of the cyber threat from organised what happened was a breach of an embargo, or possibly crime. Can the Minister confirm that there have been a leak, but I am sure that Members will be concerned discussions with the chairman and director of SOCA that there has been a leak about the cybersecurity and that any concerns raised with him have been taken strategy, of all things. on board? One reason that the Government have given for bringing Mr. Hanson: We have had discussions across government forward the strategy is the growing threat posed by about the implications of the strategy. We are working hostile states, terrorists and criminals. We do not deny on crime issues in particular, given my responsibilities, that that threat exists and is growing, but they are and they are important issues. With regard to the oral described in very broad terms. What criteria have the statement, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister laid Government used to define hostile states, terrorists and the issues before the House this morning in a written criminals? To give us an idea of the scale of the threat ministerial statement. As I have mentioned, the problem that is posed, can the Minister tell us anything about with the breaches arose in relation to the D notice that how many attacks there have been on our networks, for was issued. Initially, our mistake was that we did not instance over the past 12 months? put it under embargo, as we should have. It was later This Government have a rather illiberal and invasive put under embargo, but unfortunately the press published overarching counter-terrorism strategy that includes such that D notice and made a story around it, without Orwellian measures as control orders. Can the Minister knowing what was in the document, which was published give us some assurance that the cybersecurity operations to the House at 10 am today. centre will not just be used for snooping on British citizens’ internet use? In the cyber strategy, there is Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): The Minister will be mention that the Government will work closely with aware how critical the counter-terrorism sub-committee civil liberties groups. Which groups does the Minister has been, despite the slowness of establishing the new have in mind, and at what point are they likely to be operations centre, and, similarly, how concerned we involved in the process? have been at the slowness of establishing the counter- Finally, as far as I can tell there is no impact assessment terrorism units in the various regions up and down the in relation to the proposals. What are the cost implications? United Kingdom. Can he assure us that there will be We do not deny the need to have a cybersecurity strategy, proper and sensible liaison between the two bodies, but we need to be certain that it will not have an impact with effective sharing of intelligence, and that that will on our civil liberties. That is the reassurance that we are start not next year, but now? seeking from the Minister today. Mr. Hanson: Absolutely. Although I have been in this Mr. Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for post for only two weeks and four days, I had a justice his questions. May I give him that assurance immediately? background in my previous Department, and I am The strategy is about defending civil liberties and ensuring urgently looking at those issues to ensure that the very 945 National Security Strategy25 JUNE 2009 National Security Strategy 946

[Mr. Hanson] Mr. Hanson: My hon. Friend puts his finger on a key issue. Today’s document is about the protection of the things that the hon. Gentleman mentions are put in public and the protection of UK interests in the UK. It place. We need to ensure not just that Departments and is about ensuring that we are prepared to assess and the organisations within them are operating individually examine the threat, that people understand that threat in their silos, but that we have co-operation across the and that people are supported in their businesses, in board. Today’s cyber strategy is about establishing a their private lives and in government to take steps to unit in GCHQ under effective leadership to look at prevent that threat from arising. The protection of the those issues across government. That is the objective. public is the key element of today’s document. Without wishing to burden the hon. Member for Reigate, let me Jacqui Smith (Redditch) (Lab): I welcome today’s say that my hon. Friend puts his finger on an issue on publication by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister which there is, I hope, cross-government and cross-party of a wide-ranging, cross-Government and cross-agency agreement. cyber security strategy. Given the significance that the Obama Administration have placed on cyber security, Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): Contrary will my right hon. Friend the Minister outline how to the Minister’s statement that the D notice and the we will be able to work with our closest security ally information about the individual appointment were the to maximise our joint capability and minimise duplication? only things in the public domain, on 15 June more details were put into the public domain, both online The Guardian Mr. Hanson: I suspect that my right hon. Friend has and in , about the statement that the as much knowledge of the work done to date as my Government would set up an agency.Given the importance noble Friend Lord West, who was involved in producing of information security and the Cabinet Office’s role in today’s document, and I pay tribute to her for that. She that, will the Minister initiate a leak inquiry into how makes a vital point. The internet and cyber security do the information got into the public domain, unless, of not end at the boundaries of the United Kingdom. course, that is done deliberately by the Government in They are international and European issues, and ones the next 14 days? on which we need to work closely with our allies in the Mr. Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for American Administration. I am confident that the new his question. Let me say again that the detail of the unit will work closely with our colleagues in Washington announcement has been made public only this morning, and that it will have the same objectives, which are to in the ministerial statement by my right hon. Friend the tackle international organised crime, ensure that we Prime Minister. My noble Friend Lord West of Spithead are safe and try to prevent terrorist approaches to our has written a letter to Mr. Speaker and the hon. Member cyber system. for Reigate in confidence to explain the background to the D notice. I have given the House an account of that, Mr. John Whittingdale (Maldon and East Chelmsford) and I hope that hon. Members will be satisfied with it. (Con): I welcome the Minister’s commitment to civil liberties, but will the national security strategy include Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): the establishment of a national database to maintain For some years I have had the privilege to work with the records of web page visits, e-mails and VoIP—voice Information Assurance Advisory Council, which brings over internet protocol—calls and whether the Government together government officials and the private sector on intend to introduce a compulsory register of all mobile the important issue of information assurance. May I phones in the country? seek an assurance from my right hon. Friend that the new body will reach deep into the private sector and Mr. Hanson: If I may, I would like to come back to ensure a proper sharing of expertise? After all, the most the hon. Gentleman on the detail of that point. Let me likely areas for attack are probably in the City of re-emphasise, however, that the whole purpose of the London and other areas where we need proper sharing ethics committee that we are establishing is to look at of our intelligence and the intelligence that the private the liberty issues surrounding internet activity under sector gathers. the cyber strategy. We are working through the detail of Mr. Hanson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his how we will do that, but I will certainly respond to the question. In today’s document, which is clear and public, hon. Gentleman after this statement. However, the key we have established eight work streams. One of the key thing, which those in all parts of the House need to work streams deals with skills, education, training and know, is that the liberty of individuals to enjoy their capability. The new unit will need to look at those issues business, their communities and their private lives on and ask where the skills shortages are, where good the internet is important to the Government, as is, practice is, which issues it will need to share and develop, equally, the ability to ensure that they are not subject to and how it can do that in a way that helps businesses in crime, terrorist threats or distraction by people who particular, but also the general public and Departments, have alternative methods to hand. to protect and maintain the integrity of their cyber networks. Mr. Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): What a great shame it is that the hon. Member for Reigate Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): Will the (Mr. Blunt) has squandered his opportunity to hold the Minister at least take back to his ministerial colleagues Government to account. Is not the key issue that there in other Departments the message that, whether it is is state-sponsored hacking of key UK information networks deliberate or inadvertent, when advance news about on an industrial scale and that we have to transform matters that ought to be announced in this House leaks GCHQ into a spy school for geeks who are more into the press, Ministers can expect to be summoned cunning than their Chinese counterparts? straight away to this House to answer urgent questions? 947 National Security Strategy 25 JUNE 2009 948

Mr. Hanson: I think that you have made clear to my Business of the House ministerial colleagues across the board the regime that you intend to operate, Mr. Speaker. I have no doubt 12 noon that both my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House and other colleagues will help to support Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): May I you in that objective. invite the Leader of the House to give us the forthcoming business? Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): Given that Estonia was the first country to experience The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet the devastating effect of a cyber attack, can the Minister Harman): The business for next week will be as follows: say a bit more about how we are working with our MONDAY 29 JUNE—Second Reading of the Parliamentary European partners, especially the Baltic states, which Standards Bill. are probably on the front line of the threat? TUESDAY 30 JUNE—Consideration in Committee of the Parliamentary Standards Bill. Mr. Hanson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. One of the key things in the document, in work stream 7, is WEDNESDAY 1JULY—Consideration in Committee and international engagement. One of the office’s new tasks remaining stages of the Parliamentary Standards Bill, will be to bring together the UK’s work with that of followed by consideration of Lords amendments to the overseas partners and international organisations. Self- Saving Gateway Accounts Bill. evidently, the European Union is one of the biggest THURSDAY 2JULY—Estimates [3rd allotted day]. There local organisations in which we can get cross-governmental will be a debate on looked-after children, followed by a co-operation on some of the issues. That is important, debate on road safety. Details will be given in the and we will be commissioning working groups to take Official Report. forward work across the board in the next few weeks [The details are as follows: Looked-after Children and months. (3rd Report from the Children, Schools and Families Committee, HC 111 and Government response (4th Special Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): There is a report HC 787, to be published on Monday 29 June); serious security concern for citizens, because, after all, Ending the Scandal of Complacency: Road Safety beyond the Government have shown themselves to be somewhat 2010 (Eleventh Report from the Transport Committee, ineffective in preventing confidential information from Session 2007-08, HC 460), and the Government’s responses falling into the wrong hands. Further to the point about (First and Second Special Reports, Session 2008-09, Estonia, is the Minister aware of the devastating effect HC 136 and HC422).] of the first organised cyber war ever launched against a At 6 pm, the House will be asked to agree all outstanding country—namely, Estonia—not only on businesses but estimates. on private citizens? May I suggest that he recommend that the individuals responsible for developing the strategy FRIDAY 3JULY—Private Members’ Bills. here work directly with the Estonian authorities, which The provisional business for the week commencing have not only experience of what happens when things 6 July will include: go wrong but coping strategies to prevent it from happening MONDAY 6JULY—Opposition Day [15th allotted day]. again? I am sure that that would be useful for my There will be a debate on an Opposition motion, subject constituents and all constituents across the United to be announced, followed by proceedings on the Kingdom. Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No.2) Bill. TUESDAY 7JULY—Remaining stages of the Finance Mr. Hanson: We will certainly look at the experience Bill (Day 1). of Estonia and at how we can learn from it. The hon. Gentleman’s key point is that everyone needs to have WEDNESDAY 8JULY—Conclusion of remaining stages confidence in the use of the cyber network. People need of the Finance Bill (Day 2). to have confidence that their information is not being THURSDAY 9JULY—Topical debate, subject to be hacked into or copied, and that it will not be used for announced, followed by a motion to approve the Draft criminal or terrorist purposes. The key objective of the Terrorism Act 2006 (Disapplication of Section 25) document is to ensure that we help to develop that Order 2009, followed by a motion to approve the Draft confidence still further. Council Tax Limitation (Maximum Amounts) (England) Order 2009. I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 9 July will be: THURSDAY 9JULY—A debate on the report from the Foreign Affairs Committee entitled “Global Security: Iran”.

Alan Duncan: I thank the Leader of the House for giving us the forthcoming business, but the way in which she appears to be presiding over House business at the moment does seem a tad shambolic. Last week, we were informed that the Government would be tabling today’s motions in good time to give the House as much opportunity as possible to look over the proposals. However, nothing appeared on the Order Paper until 949 Business of the House25 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 950

[Alan Duncan] Leader of the House to guarantee not to lose sight of the Bill, and to bring it to the House as soon as yesterday. Then, on the same day, the Government possible? inexplicably withdrew the motion that would have Given the Prime Minister’s woeful performance at established a new ad hoc Committee on reforming this questions yesterday, may we have a full and urgent House. Will she advise us as to quite what is happening? statement from him on financial honesty in the If, as I suspect, the Government were embarrassed by Government? Yesterday morning, Britain was found to the gulf between the Prime Minister’s announcement be facing the biggest budget deficit in the world. At and the proposed remit of the Committee, which was so lunchtime, the Prime Minister’s attempts to defend narrow as to render the whole exercise absurd, why did himself in the Commons ended in ridicule. In the afternoon, not the Government simply support the amendments the Governor of the Bank of England complained that on the Order Paper that would have widened the he had been left in the dark about important aspects of Committee’s scope and spared the right hon. and learned Government policy, and delivered the final blow by Lady’s blushes? Or is the real truth that this whole calling on the Government to set tougher targets on the episode was dreamt up in the No. 10 bunker merely to UK’s “extraordinary” debt levels. Is it not clear that the fill a space in a prime ministerial press release? When longer the Prime Minister deludes himself about being will the Committee now be established? in power, the longer it will take the UK to recover? On the new Parliamentary Standards Bill, which we Finally, may I simply note that, this week, we are will debate in its entirety next week, will the Leader of celebrating the second anniversary of the right hon. and the House give her guarantee that issues of privilege learned Lady’s ascension to her position as Leader of will not be discussed by the House at the Bill’s Committee the House? I will send her a card saying “Now we are stage until the Clerk of the House has given evidence to two.” Members may take that to mean anything the Justice Select Committee, as I believe he is scheduled they wish. to do on Tuesday? May we have a statement from the Home Secretary Ms Harman: The shadow Leader of the House asked on the status of the Government’s policy on identity about the motion on the Committee. The intention is cards? Four statutory instruments on ID cards were due that this Committee of the House will be chaired by my to be debated last week, but then The Sunday Times hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), reported—correctly, as it turned out—that they were to and that it will consider the improvement of the processes be shelved for a month. In view of your important and for the Government being held to account by Members welcome statement on ministerial statements yesterday, of this House. We tabled a motion, and amendments to Mr. Speaker, will the right hon. and learned Lady now it were tabled. We considered the amendments; in fact, promise that the Home Secretary will come to Parliament more amendments have been tabled this morning. If we to clarify here what Ministers have been briefing in are trying to achieve consensus across the House, I private—namely, that the Government realise that they think that it is right and proper that, instead of ploughing are on to a loser and are getting ready to perform yet on with our resolution, we should listen to what is being another major policy U-turn? said and see whether we can take on board the different Similarly, will the right hon. and learned Lady confirm points of view and proceed on a basis of consensus. the mysterious whereabouts of the Postal Services Bill, The shadow Leader of the House told everyone that on which the Business Secretary has staked his reputation he was a new man, but is it not quintessentially old and, along with it, the Prime Minister’s career? I have politics to insist that we do not need to listen? As asked about this twice before and have twice received Leader of the House, it is important for me to listen to inadequate answers. There are only 16 sitting days left hon. Members when they table amendments, and to before the summer recess. The Bill’s First Reading was take into account what they suggest. I do not think that over four weeks ago and, as the right hon. and learned that is the sign of a shambles; it is the sign of how the Lady knows, Second Reading would normally follow Leader of the House should proceed. I do not think swiftly behind. Is the Bill going to be delivered from the that it is a sign of weakness; it is a sign of strength. The upper House or has it—as I heard hon. Members saying hon. Gentleman will be reassured to hear—I will talk to just a few seconds ago—been permanently lost in him and all other hon. Members about this—that we the post? will proceed to bring forward a resolution, before the In the provisional business that the right hon. and House rises, on which I hope that the whole House can learned Lady announced last week, the Child Poverty agree, so that we can set up the Committee and improve Bill was scheduled for this coming Monday. Now that the way in which the House holds the Government to we are going to be debating the Parliamentary Standards account. Bill on Monday instead, will she give us a commitment The hon. Gentleman asked about the Parliamentary that the House will indeed debate this important Bill Standards Bill. He has seen it; it has been published, before the summer recess? We on the Opposition and it will be debated on the Floor of the House over Benches are full of contributions that we wish to make three days. He will see from the face of the Bill that the to the legislation. The issue is all the more important in question of parliamentary privilege is not an issue in the light of yesterday’s Office for National Statistics that Bill, so that is not a question that hon. Members figures on the level of deprivation facing children growing need to concern themselves with. Essentially, the up in London, nearly a quarter of whom are living in Parliamentary Standards Bill sets up an authority to households where no one is working and which are deal with our allowances to ensure that they are established plagued by obesity and crime. As a Member who represents and administered independently and that the public can an inner-London borough, and for the sake of those have confidence that that is the case. It will not trample whom the legislation seeks to protect, may I ask the on the question of privilege. 951 Business of the House25 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 952

On ID cards, there is no change in Government has not. Has she sought convenient places and dates to policy. The hon. Gentleman knows that the Home enable those Committees to meet? No, she has not. All Secretary keeps the matter under review at all times. If she has consulted is the so-called regional Ministers, there is any change in policy, the House will be kept who have then decided where those Committees will updated. The hon. Gentleman will know that we have meet, when they will meet and what they will discuss. introduced biometric ID cards for foreign nationals, What sort of scrutiny of Government is that? Will she and I hope he supports that, as it is not only important now withdraw motions 6 to 13 and talk to me and the for security, but speeds up the sorting out of identity hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) questions so that access to visas, for example, is made in order to move forward? easier for people who are genuinely who they say they The Government need to come clean on the question are. He also knows that we are introducing this approach of ID cards. The Conservatives changed their minds for air-side in airports, and that there will be no compulsory eventually, and former Home Secretaries—and there ID cards for everybody else without a vote in this are enough of them—have changed their minds, so House. If there is any change on that—I do not expect when are the Government going to admit that they will that there will be—the Home Secretary will keep the have to change their mind on ID cards and come to the House informed. He keeps the matter under review, as position that we have advocated all along? I said. In looking at how this House scrutinises business, can The hon. Gentleman asked about the Postal Services we look seriously at how we scrutinise Government Bill. It is not announced for next week’s business or that expenditure? As I have said before, there is no adequate of the week after. He will see that we had to make a mechanism for the House as a whole to look at Government space for three days for the Parliamentary Standards spending. We have estimates days which do not involve Bill. I think it is important, with a crisis of public looking at estimates; we have Consolidated Fund motions confidence in the House, to bring forward this measure which do not involve any debate on the Consolidated and address it quickly. At the same time, to ensure Fund; and we give more scrutiny to a ten-minute Bill proper scrutiny of the measure while bringing it in than to the Government’s entire spending programme. expeditiously, we need to give adequate time for it to be Can we have some major reforms to enable us to carry debated on the Floor of the House. That is why debate out such scrutiny, so that we are not simply asked to of the Parliamentary Standards Bill will be across write out cheques? If that had happened, we might not three days. have been facing the biggest financial deficit that this The Child Poverty Bill is not in the business that I country has ever seen, and the biggest seen in Europe. have announced, but I hope that it will be brought in Can we have a debate very soon, so that we can see how before the summer recess. I expect that to be the case, the Government plan, as the Governor of the Bank of and on the basis of what the hon. Gentleman said, I England says, hope that the Opposition will vote for it when it comes “to return to a sustainable position over the lifetime of the next before the House. Parliament”? On the economy, it remains the No. 1 priority of the That is crucial. It is no good pretending that the bills are Government to take action to protect businesses and not mounting up; we have to find a way of paying them. people’s jobs, and to make sure that if people lose their Finally, I welcome the fact that the Leader of the job, they do not also lose their home. We will intervene House has acceded the request I made last week about and take action in all those respects, and we will make reconstituting the Science and Technology Committee. sure that we grow the economy out of recession rather I suggest that the Committee be asked an early stage to than cut it, which is not the way to take us out of look at the recent research of Professor Tonegawa, the recession. published in Neuron magazine, which reveals that we edit our memories when fast asleep. Could that explain Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I am the difference between what the Prime Minister says a generous sort, and I like to give credit where credit is and what he does? due. I entirely applaud what the Leader of the House has just said—that from now on, she is going to consult Ms Harman: The question of what the Science and before putting motions before the House; she is going to Technology Committee looks at is a matter for that listen to what people say, and then react to those Committee—if the House establishes the new Committee, requests. Hallelujah! That is what we have been asking as I am sure it will when we reach that part of our for for years. If that has happened in respect of the business this afternoon. Committee to be chaired by the hon. Member for The hon. Gentleman asked about consultation relating Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright)—I tabled a modest to the Regional Grand Committees. I remind the House amendment, which was supported in all parts of the that motions will come before hon. Members later this House, and the Leader of the House has now given me afternoon to establish such Committees and to ensure to understand that she will agree to it—it is very good that they sit in September, in the regions. Regional news indeed. Grand Committees are Committees of all Members in a When we look at today’s Order Paper, however, what region, and they will look at how Government agencies do we see? We see motions 6 to 13, standing in the name and policies are working in that region. There was of the Leader of the House, setting up the Regional consultation, and it was with the Regional Select Grand Committees. The right hon. and learned Lady Committees. It is not my fault if the hon. Gentleman knows that I support the idea of having such Committees, and his hon. Friends will not sit on those Committees, but has she consulted before tabling the motions? No, or if the official Opposition do not want to join the she has not. Has she canvassed the subject matter that Regional Select Committees. I think that they should the Regional Grand Committees will discuss? No, she join them; on behalf of the regions they represent, they 953 Business of the House25 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 954

[Ms Harman] am trying to explain the situation. If there is a donation, a de minimis rule will apply, and I suspect that when should hold Government agencies to account. I hope people give her flowers, it is a donation rather than that the hon. Gentleman will attend and play a part payment for services. If there is payment for services, in with regard to the Regional Grand Committees, and the cash or in kind, that needs to be declared. It is quite Regional Select Committees as well. easy for hon. Members to work out whether the item is On ID cards, I have nothing to add to what I said to a gift given after something has been done, or payment the shadow Leader of the House. for services. If payment for services has taken place, there is no de minimis rule, nor should there be. The hon. Gentleman asked about scrutiny by the House of Government spending. It is not true to say Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Can we have a that there is no scrutiny of Government spending: we debate on the impact of high electricity prices on have oral questions, the pre-Budget report and debates, manufacturing in the United Kingdom, particularly on as chosen by the Liaison Committee, of Select Committee energy-intensive industries such as aluminium smelting? reports. How the House scrutinises public spending is a UK companies are finding such prices difficult, and subject that could fall within the remit of the Committee that is threatening UK jobs and production. that we hope to establish under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright). Ms Harman: Ministers in the Treasury and the I have already said that I want to listen and consult Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are before I table motions, and it is obviously even more very concerned about increased energy prices, generated necessary to listen and consult when amendments are particularly by the cost of oil. I will ask the Secretary of forthcoming. There is nothing wrong, however, with the State for Business, Innovation and Skills to write to my process of tabling a motion, seeing that there is a whole hon. Friend about that. heap of amendments and then talking about the matter. That is not a U-turn; it is not weakness or backing Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): down; it is about setting out a position, seeing what Further to the question of my right hon. Friend the people like—or, in this case, dislike—about it and thinking Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss again. Widdecombe), the new rules that come into effect next Wednesday are virtually unworkable. If I make an Several hon. Members rose— after-dinner speech and my wife is presented with a bouquet of flowers, those become registrable. Under Mr. Speaker: Order. Many Members want to contribute, the Parliamentary Standards Bill, failure to register so I appeal to each Member to ask one brief supplementary becomes a criminal offence—and if I ask her to give question. them back, I will be in even deeper trouble. When will the Leader of the House reply to the letter I wrote to Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): On 15 June, for her on 2 June asking her to introduce a sensible de the first time ever, more Labour MPs voted against the minimis threshold for that part of the register? Government than with them, to close the loophole that allows tax exiles to bankroll UK political parties. Will Ms Harman: I think that the guidance will be workable. my friend seek to reverse that vote when the Political Obviously, we will ensure that we work closely with the Parties and Elections Bill comes back to the Commons, registrar of financial interests to ensure that Members and will we get that Bill before the recess? understand the rules clearly. There is no intention to have an unworkable system. The House supported the Ms Harman: When the Bill comes back to this House, resolution for a register because the public are entitled the Minister concerned will make the position clear, no to know, if Members are receiving payments for services, doubt having discussed it widely with Members on both who is paying them and what they are paying them for. sides of the House before doing so. Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): Miss Ann Widdecombe (Maidstone and The Weald) Will my right hon. and learned Friend try to find time (Con): Will the Leader of the House make time within for a debate on the quality of advice being given to the parliamentary timetable to revisit the recently imposed people in jobcentres, particularly in south London? I abolition of the de minimis rules in the Register of am increasingly aware that many of the new deal advisers Members’ Interests? I have been told in all solemnity by are unaware of the services and support that they can the registrar today that in future every bunch of flowers provide to lone parents returning to work. will have to be registered. I suggest to the right hon. and learned Lady that that will result in not only my entry in Ms Harman: Department for Work and Pensions the register, but those of several female Members, having questions are on Monday, when perhaps my hon. Friend more petals than the average botanical gardens. Can can put that question to Ministers, who are very concerned she make time to consider the question? Perhaps we to ensure high-quality work in jobcentres. should go with Gilbert and Sullivan: “The flowers that bloom with the speech, tra-la, have nothing to do with Richard Younger-Ross (Teignbridge) (LD): May I say the case.” that the Conservative Members who have spoken about minimum payments are entirely right? Ms Harman: There is a de minimis rule for donations, Can I ask the Leader of the House about English which is 1 per cent.—£650. Unless the bunch of flowers Heritage’s launch yesterday of “Heritage at Risk”? It given to the right hon. Lady is worth more than £650— cites one in seven conservation areas as being at risk. [Interruption.] If hon. Members will bear with me, I Given the Government’s failure to bring in a heritage 955 Business of the House25 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 956 protection Bill last year, can we have an urgent debate of December. Will she ask the Minister responsible to on what other measures can be taken to protect listed come to the House and reveal his plans for interventions and other buildings that are deteriorating and being so that people in this country are not overcharged for demolished because of lack of action by the Government? what should rightfully be subject to a true, fair and proper price set by a regulator? Ms Harman: I will ask Ministers in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to write to the hon. Ms Harman: The issue is very important for industry Gentleman. I do not know whether any of his concerns and businesses as well as people in their own homes. I come within the purview of the Department for will discuss with the Minister responsible the best way Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but it has questions to keep the House updated on Government action in next week. this important respect.

Mark Fisher (Stoke-on-Trent, Central) (Lab): May I Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): It has emerged that congratulate the Leader of the House on recognising the now Defence Secretary told me and the families of the strength of support for the amendment tabled by 14 service personnel who died aboard Nimrod XV230 the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) that the aircraft had been made safe, despite being yesterday, and on giving herself and the Government warned that it was impossible to be sure that that was more time to think carefully about these matters? When true. We were repeatedly told that defence consultants she does so, will she think particularly carefully about QinetiQ agreed that the aircraft was safe to fly, despite the distinction between Government time and time that the company warning that should properly be controlled by the House? Of course “no statement can, or has been made” every Government have the right to introduce the legislation to that effect. Can we have a debate in Government time which they proposed when being elected, and should to learn which version is correct? have plenty of time for that, but surely all other business is a matter for the House, including all matters of scrutiny of the Government. It is not for the Government Ms Harman: If an hon. Member is to raise in business to decide how much and what sort of time should be questions an important point on a matter of great given to such scrutiny. seriousness and heartfelt concern to many individuals, it is worth giving me notice of it in advance, so that I Ms Harman: I agree with the sentiment expressed by can give a proper, fuller answer, having consulted the my hon. Friend. It is important that a democratically Minister responsible in advance. I will draw Ministers’ elected Government are able to deliver on their manifesto attention to the hon. Gentleman’s comments. commitments and to get their business through the House, and that the House of elected Members makes Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): May we assume sure that that legislation is properly scrutinised and that that the listening and consultation applies to Labour the Government continue to be held to account. That is Members as well as to the Opposition? Does it explain why I hope that the Committee, under the chairmanship the absence of the Postal Services Bill, which has not of the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), arrived in the House? Is that because Ministers have will be able to look across those issues. found the strength, having listened to scores, indeed hundreds, of Labour MPs, to ensure that the part- Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Can we have privatisation of Royal Mail does not go ahead? If that is an urgent debate on negative equity in the housing the order of the day, well done! market? The recent rise in negative equity across the country has been most pronounced in Northamptonshire Ms Harman: On Leader of the House issues, if my and the east midlands, and thousands of people are in hon. Friend looks at the amendments that were tabled real trouble? to my motion, he will see that they are in the names of Members on both sides of the House, including on our Ms Harman: Negative equity is a particular concern own Labour Benches. It is a question not just of cross-party if people cannot afford to stay in their homes and are talks with Front-Bench spokesmen but of looking at forced to sell them at a very low market value. That is all the names of hon. Members on the Order Paper, why we have taken a range of actions to protect people including those on our side of the House. I shall refer being forced into repossession, including the support his comments to the Secretary of State for Business, for mortgage interest scheme, the homeowner mortgage Innovation and Skills. support scheme, the mortgage rescue scheme, the repossession prevention fund and the mortgage pre-action Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): May we have a protocol. Repossessions, although rising, are still way debate on the effectiveness of the NHS in managing its below the level in the previous recession, and we are land assets? Putney hospital has been derelict for taking all the action that we can to prevent them from 10 years. At the eleventh hour, NHS London has pulled rising faster. the rug on its redevelopment into badly needed GP premises. Clearly there is a general issue about bureaucracy. Mr. Ken Purchase (Wolverhampton, North-East) (Lab/ May we have a chance to debate that in the House? Co-op): My right hon. and learned Friend will have seen in this morning’s papers and elsewhere that energy Ms Harman: It is always worth drawing such issues to companies—electricity and gas suppliers—are being accused the attention of Health Ministers in oral questions. of grossly overcharging their customers. It is also suggested Perhaps the hon. Lady will look for an opportunity to that Ministers should have a strategy to intervene if do that. It is very important that the NHS manages its such companies refuse to reduce their prices by the end assets, including its land assets, properly. That is even 957 Business of the House25 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 958

[Ms Harman] 2 May, he was promised by the UK Border Agency that it would be resolved within two weeks. It was not. In more important against a background of hundreds of June, I raised a parliamentary question on the matter. It millions—in fact billions—of pounds of extra investment is still not resolved. Yesterday, I tried to ring the MPs into the NHS. That is important investment to be made hotline. That was unobtainable. Will the Leader of the to help improve that vital public service, but obviously House consider a debate on the shambolic nature of the we want to ensure that every pound is well spent. UK Border Agency?

Mr. Jim McGovern (Dundee, West) (Lab): May we Ms Harman: The overall performance of the UK have a debate in Government time about the provision Border Agency has improved over the years. I know of apprenticeship schemes when local authorities award that as the Member with the most immigration cases of contracts to the private sector? It should be incumbent anyone in the House. Certainly, the MPs hotline has on local authorities to ensure that when they award been very helpful to many hon. Members over the year. contracts to private sector companies, such companies However, the hon. Gentleman has a particular case, have approved accredited apprenticeship schemes that which he has now raised on the Floor of the House. I allow apprentices to attend further education colleges. will ensure that it is brought to the attention of the Dundee city council in my constituency has just awarded immigration Minister forthwith. a contract to a private sector company, but we have yet to receive assurances from the separatist Scottish National Gwyn Prosser (Dover) (Lab): When can we have a party-led council that it will ensure that an apprenticeship debate on the free passage of passengers and freight scheme is in place. vessels across the channel into Dover? Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the French unions are Ms Harman: My hon. Friend makes an important attempting to disrupt the passage of British flagged, point. Given how public services, in particular local British crewed ships, ridiculously describing them as government, procure services and engage in direct flags of convenience? construction projects, they have a major opportunity to ensure that apprenticeships are provided. I know, for Ms Harman: I will raise that with Ministers in the example, that that is very much at the centre of the work Foreign Office. Part of the importance of us working on the Olympics. I will bring his comments to the very closely with other countries in Europe, and making attention of the relevant Ministers and ask them to sure that Britain is central and at the heart of Europe, is write to him. to ensure that important ports such as Dover, which my hon. Friend champions, can flourish in the future. Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): May I draw attention to early-day motion 1739 in my Mr. Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): This morning’s name on fishermen from the Philippines who work on announcement by Consumer Focus that it has found the west coast of Scotland? that energy companies are not passing on the full decline in wholesale prices to consumers must be investigated. [That this House strongly believes that the Government May we have an urgent statement from the energy should quickly reconsider its policies regarding fishermen Minister to get to the bottom of that, as it appears that from the Philippines working in the waters around the every consumer is being overcharged by an average of Outer Hebrides and west coast of Scotland by establishing £74? Can we ensure that energy companies are forced to a six month moratorium on deportations; notes that these pass every penny of the decline in wholesale prices on to fishermen are not unskilled workers as they need several the consumer? qualifications to engage in the fishing profession while filling a severe shortage of skilled fishing labour in the Ms Harman: Ministers meet the energy companies Western Isles; and further notes that deporting these regularly. As I said, I will bring to the attention of fishermen will be yet another blow to the Isles as the Ministers the question of reporting the latest situation Government is already planning to close the Hebrides to the House. Range which will result in the loss of almost 120 jobs.] Fishermen’s leaders are calling daily to tell me that Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): May we have a fishermen are being threatened with deportation or are debate on the allocation of resources for the modernisation not being allowed back to their boats from the Philippines. and adaptation of the homes of the elderly? My constituent As a result, at the time of credit crunch, boats are Mrs. Bhanji is 86 years of age. She has Parkinson’s, she having to tie up. May we have a debate on the importance is blind, she has low mobility, but she has been waiting of beneficial immigration into the UK and, indeed, the for more than a year for the grant to be approved. I am high regard with which fishermen from the Philippines not apportioning blame between the Government or are held on the west coast of Scotland? the local authority, but is important that we have a debate on why that takes so long. Ms Harman: Given that those questions cut across the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Ms Harman: I will draw the attention of the Minister Affairs and the Home Office, the hon. Gentleman might for Housing to the points raised by my right hon. want to raise them at DEFRA questions next week. Friend.

Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On 14 January, Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): The National Mr. Nicholas Mazordze, a constituent of mine, was Cancer Intelligence Network has today published alarming promised by the UK Border Agency that his immigration figures that show that the gap between the cancer case would be resolved within 28 days. It was not. On outcomes of the over-75s in this country and those in 959 Business of the House25 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 960 comparable countries has widened even further. May time to allow us to consider how to improve returns to we have a debate in Government time on why it is that unsecured creditors, and also how to reduce the fees of the Government’s national cancer plan is failing our insolvency practitioners? elderly constituents? Ms Harman: I shall bring my hon. Friend’s comments Ms Harman: We recognise that there is inequality to the attention of Ministers in the Department for and age discrimination in the health service. That is why Business, Innovation and Skills. we have put a provision in the Equality Bill to outlaw discrimination in the provision of health services on Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): Perseverance grounds of age, which is a major step forward. In order obviously works in the Chamber, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I to prepare the way for the introduction of that new tried to catch Mr. Speaker’s eye earlier today during tough law, a pilot is being undertaken by the Department transport questions, but was unable to do so. With that of Health covering the whole of the South-West regional in mind, may I ask for a debate on the rural roads health authority and also Bristol city council. We are network? That would allow me to raise the subject of piloting it in advance of the Bill coming into effect in Water End, a hamlet in my constituency which is being order to tackle age discrimination in the health services. shaken to bits by the heavy traffic that goes through it. It is disappointing that Opposition Members voted It was designed for horse and cart traffic, but it is now against the Bill on Second Reading. the main road between Hemel Hempstead and Leighton Buzzard. May we have a debate that would allow us to raise local issues of that kind? Dr. Stephen Ladyman (South Thanet) (Lab): By the middle of this century, four times as many older people Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman clearly has an will need care, and there is a growing funding gap in existential problem. It seems that, as well as failing to be respect of the care needs of people with complex learning called during transport questions, he failed to catch disabilities. Will my right hon. and learned Friend promise Mr. Speaker’s eye during last Thursday’s debate on that when the social care Green Paper is published rural affairs. Perhaps I shall be able to suggest a further shortly, which addresses those incredibly difficult challenges, opportunity for him to put himself forward. we will have a significant amount of time in the House to debate the ideas in it? Mrs. Ann Cryer (Keighley) (Lab): May we have a debate to celebrate the qualities and work of Members Ms Harman: Everybody should be in no doubt about in all parts of the House? I am becoming increasingly the importance of that agenda for the future. It is disturbed by the degree of nastiness that is being directed important not only for the statutory agencies, such as at Members. I know that it began as a legitimate form of health and social services, but for the voluntary sector, investigative journalism, and I have no problem with which plays a major role in respect of those issues. It is that, but it has descended into a witch hunt that is also important for families, because the overwhelming hiding from our constituents the very good work that bulk of care is provided not by agencies or voluntary many of us are doing, or trying to do. services, but by family members, who need to go out to work as well as care for an older or disabled relative. I Ms Harman: I think that the way in which to address will try to ensure that we have a good opportunity to the genuine public anger about the issue of allowances debate the Green Paper when it comes forward. is to show by our actions that we are determined to put the allowances system on a wholly independent footing—to Mr. Andrew Mackay (Bracknell) (Con): I am sure ensure that the rules are clear, and to ensure that they that the Leader of the House will agree that the situation are decided independently by the Parliamentary Standards in Iran is dire, with the Government having rigged the Authority. I hope that that will not only assuage the presidential election and a number of pro-democracy public anger, but restore the respect that ought to be demonstrators being either killed or imprisoned. She given to hon. Members and for this institution. will also be aware that independent informed commentators feel that our Government could have been more robust Mr. Rob Wilson (Reading, East) (Con): The Leader in the defence of democracy. To put matters right, will of the House may remember that during business questions she ensure that the Foreign Secretary comes to House on 4 June I asked for a topical debate on how we could next week to make a further statement on the situation help Pakistan and its 3 million displaced people. At the in Iran? time, the right hon. Lady thought that that was a good proposal. I understand from her statement today that there is a space on 9 July. May we please have the Ms Harman: I know that our Government are working debate then? with other Governments to make absolutely sure that the democratic rights of the people of Iran are recognised. Ms Harman: The Foreign Secretary will answer questions That is a matter of great importance to the Iranian in the House on Tuesday. I suggest that, as well as people. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that he will leaving the issue on my agenda, the hon. Gentleman have an opportunity to question Ministers in Westminster raise it directly with him. Hall on 9 July, and that the Secretary of State and Ministers will respond to oral questions on Tuesday. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire, North) (Lab): May we have a debate on corporate responsibility to Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): our communities and, indeed, our country? My right Business insolvency is a serious matter, and never more hon. Friend will be aware that today hundreds of workers so than nowadays. May we have a debate in Government are on strike in power stations throughout the country. 961 Business of the House25 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 962

[Jim Sheridan] members of the commission, who will have been elected by all parties in the House, on the terms of reference That has been caused by the action of Total, the oil before returning the motion to the Order Paper? Secondly, company, which has brought in foreign nationals to will she open negotiations with the Opposition parties undermine the terms and conditions of indigenous and interested Back Benchers on how her Equality Bill workers. May I ask my right hon. Friend to use her will be scrutinised on Report? It is an important Bill, good offices and ask Total to act responsibly? If it does and scrutiny of it is therefore also important. not, others will be encouraged to vote for extreme parties such as the British National party. Ms Harman: I will do both those things. The hon. Gentleman’s point has some validity. It is usual for Ms Harman: We can all well understand, against the Government to divide the House’s work into Government background of a global economic crisis, the anxiety and non-Government business, but the hon. Gentleman that people feel about their jobs. That is why the is right to point out that Government Bills are House Government are taking every possible action to step in business and the distinction is therefore somewhat artificial. and protect businesses. We also hope that all parties—both I hope that the Wright commission will be able to sides in the dispute that my hon. Friend has mentioned—will examine those issues. act responsibly, and talk to each other to try to reach agreement so that work can resume. Mr. Ian Cawsey (Brigg and Goole) (Lab): About 15 minutes ago, Corus issued a statement confirming its James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend, East) (Con): proposal to cut more than 2,000 jobs in its long products Following discussions between the Prime Minister and section, including 500 white-collar managerial jobs. Most Morgan Tsvangirai, the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe, of those jobs will be lost at the Scunthorpe works in may we have a debate in Government time on what the north Lincolnshire. Given all that the work force have British Government can do to assist Zimbabweans who done to try to weather the storm and stay together want to return to their country to help to rebuild it? I during the recession, will my right hon. Friend organise am thinking particularly of the professionals who have, an urgent debate on Government support for the steel I understand, been identified by the Prime Minister of industry? Will she also ensure that the Business Secretary Zimbabwe. meets Members from the affected constituencies, along with the trade unions, so that we can do what we can to Ms Harman: It seems that the House is going to be keep intact a first-rate competitive British steel industry? very full for Foreign Office questions on Tuesday. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that he, too, should try Ms Harman: The matter is of great concern to, above to catch Mr. Speaker’s eye on that occasion in order to all, my hon. Friend’s constituents and people in ask the Foreign Secretary a question. neighbouring constituencies, but it is a matter of national importance as well. I shall draw what my hon. Friend Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): A few months has said to the attention of business Ministers, and will ago I mentioned to my right hon. Friend the plight of expect them to meet him and other Members immediately charities, particularly the hospice movement, and the to discuss this important issue. need for a debate on the subject. I wonder whether she has heard about the problems of Derian house, a children’s hospice in my constituency that serves children from Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): Will the Leader Scotland and throughout England. It has introduced a of the House arrange for the Secretary of State for new service, which cost well over £1 million. The money Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to make a further was raised locally, but the VAT has not been given back statement to the House on the circumstances that led to to the charity, and £350,000 must now be found. May the collapse of the Dairy Farmers of Britain co-operative we have a debate about the hospice movement, and and on what has happened since? Across the north of about the plight of Derian house in particular? England and throughout Wales, more than 1,500 farmers are suffering as a result of not having received their full Ms Harman: I shall look for an opportunity for the milk cheques for May. That demands a further statement House to debate the hospice movement; it is an important from the Secretary of State. Will the Leader of the issue, and a number of Members have raised it. As for House urge him to make one as a matter of urgency? the children’s hospice in my hon. Friend’s constituency, there is no need to wait for a debate. I shall bring the Ms Harman: The Secretary of State will be answering matter to the attention of health Ministers, and try to questions in the House next week. Given that this has establish whether it can be resolved more promptly. been such an important issue in many regions, I am sure that he will be able to account to the House for the Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): situation then. The House was elected above all to scrutinise legislation, especially legislation proposed by the Government. I Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): When the Policing hope the Leader of the House will accept that, while the and Crime Bill was in Committee in February, the two Government have specified a date when a Bill will be most important and controversial parts of it—on DNA introduced and there will be an opportunity for them to databases and on anti-gang injunctions—were introduced table amendments and new clauses, the scrutiny of that at the very last minute during the final week, and could Bill is the business of the House. I welcome her wise not be scrutinised or amended properly. On Report, we decision—which is not a U-turn—to think again about had only 40 minutes in which to discuss DNA. That the terms of reference of the Wright commission. I have makes a travesty of the idea that the House carries out two requests. First, will the Leader of the House consult democratic scrutiny of the Executive and of legislation. 963 Business of the House25 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 964

In advance of the establishment of the Wright Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): We have commission, will the Leader of the House make a clear our new Speaker, we will shortly have our new reform statement at the Dispatch Box that in future the Committee, and I hope we have a new mood for change, Government will not abuse Executive power and will so can we also have a debate on how new technology not abuse programme motions, and that we shall never can be used to help Parliament better connect with the again see such a travesty of democratic scrutiny? public?

Ms Harman: It is not long until the summer recess, Ms Harman: The Procedure Committee has been and we hope to establish the Wright Committee before working on the specific question of the public being then. I hope that its terms of reference will include the able to put items on the agenda for debate and votes in requirement on it to report swiftly, so that these matters this House. It produced a report on e-petitions, so it has can be considered in the context of that Committee. done a lot of the groundwork on this already. Perhaps that work can be brought to fruition by the parliamentary Committee that is now being set up. Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): I want to test how closely the right hon. and learned Lady has Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): The been listening. I raised with her on 30 April the issue of Parliamentary Standards Bill is, by any standard, an Ministers—indeed, herself—commenting in the media extremely important constitutional measure, yet the about the publication of Bills before they are made deliberations on it are being confined to a mere three available to Members of the House. Yesterday, my hon. days. That means that there will be only 18 hours of Friend the Member for South-West Bedfordshire (Andrew debate before it passes through all its stages in this Selous) raised a point of order with Mr. Speaker, and House. Would this House not earn a bit more respect if the right hon. and learned Lady was in her place. we delayed the rising of the House for the recess to Mr. Speaker said that the thrust of his remarks about enable the Government to give more days of debate to Ministers coming to this House first were clear. Has the this extremely important Bill? By no stretch of the right hon. and learned Lady thought about that, and is imagination will it be possible to debate every clause she prepared to say that Ministers will not speak to the and amendment next week. media about the publication of Bills until they are available to Members of this House? Mr. Speaker’s Ms Harman: I agree that this is an important measure. statement was very clear. What we all need to bear in mind, however, is the need for a balance between having proper scrutiny of these Ms Harman: If notice is given of a ministerial statement important measures and getting the independent and Members come to the House to hear that, it is very Parliamentary Standards Authority set up and operating important that the first people who are able to ask without undue delay. I think that having an opportunity questions about that statement are Members of this to debate the issue on the Floor of the House across House, not journalists, and therefore it is important three days should give enough time to address what is a that the statement to the House comes first, before it is relatively short and focused Bill that essentially sets up put into the newspapers or broadcast on radio or television. the independent Parliamentary Standards Authority The matter of Bills is slightly different. I heard what the and gives it the power to run our allowances. Debate Speaker said yesterday, and it goes without saying that across three days should be enough time for us to be what he said is, by definition, correct, but, by the time satisfied that we have properly and thoroughly scrutinised that we reach the presentation of a Bill, there has, the Bill. usually, been extensive consultation. For instance, I had already made a statement to the House setting out the Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): May we bones of the Parliamentary Standards Bill before the have a statement from the Prime Minister on what he details of it were published. It is important to try to meant when he came to Southampton and told the ensure that the House is respected and that it gets to people of Southampton and Totton in my constituency hear about matters first, but in respect of the publication that they would decide whether or not their tap water of Bills there has often already been a consultation was fluoridated? According to the Under-Secretary of process and it is not quite so easy to draw the line. State for Health, the hon. Member for Brentford and Wherever the line is drawn, however, I hope that I and Isleworth (Ann Keen): other Members will stay on the right side of it. “The Prime Minister’s statement serves to highlight the legislative requirements contained in section 89 of the Water Industry Act 1991 whereby a strategic health authority must ‘consult and Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): The Leader of ascertain opinion’ before requesting a water undertaker to increase the House is known as a great equalities champion. the fluoride content of a water supply.”—[Official Report, Therefore, may we have a debate on inequalities in the 22 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 722W.] current planning system? If she lived in Wales or Scotland All the MPs, including one of the Prime Minister’s and someone wanted to mine an open-cast mine, they Cabinet colleagues, have said that, because of lack of would not be able to do so if it was within 500 m of her public support, the process should not go ahead, yet the home, but in England the designated distance is only undemocratic strategic health authority is pressing on 100 m. May we have an urgent debate to end that with it. What did the Prime Minister mean when he said discrimination? that the people will decide?

Ms Harman: I will bring that to the attention of Ms Harman: The strategic authorities responsible for Ministers at the Department for Communities and Local water should come within the purview of the Regional Government. Select Committees and the Regional Grand Committee. 965 Business of the House 25 JUNE 2009 966

[Ms Harman] Point of Order I hope the hon. Gentleman will play his part on the Regional Committee in holding them to account, and 12.59 pm that he will raise fluoridation with the relevant Ministers, Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): On a namely Health Ministers as well as the Prime Minister. point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As you will know, on today’s Order Paper there are a series of motions, Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): The beginning with motion 6, relating to the timing and equipment that keeps our armed forces safe on the front holding of regional Grand Committees. Item five of the line is developed and manufactured in the United Kingdom, agenda for the Chairmen’s Panel next week states that based on research carried out by the Ministry of Defence the panel may wish to discuss the planned meetings of and its agencies. Unfortunately, the Government have regional Grand Committees debated in the House on decided this year to cut the MOD research budget by Thursday 25 June. You will be aware, Mr. Deputy 7 per cent. and are planning a year-on-year cut in that Speaker, that we are not able to debate these motions research all the way up to the Olympics and beyond. because the Government have said they should not be May we have an urgent debate before we break up, subject to debate, notwithstanding the fact that there given that our forces will be on operations while we are will be plenty of time today for such a debate. I also in recess, so that we can hold Defence Ministers to understand that it is not even possible for us to seek to account for, perhaps, putting some of our soldiers at amend these motions, notwithstanding that there has risk by cutting this budget? not been any consultation with any members of those Committees on the proposed dates for those meetings. Ms Harman: We do not underestimate at all the In the case of the South West Regional Grand Committee, importance of research and science, and of investing in of which I am a member by virtue of having been that. In fact, although we account for only 1 per cent. of elected to represent Christchurch, the meeting is due to the world’s population, we generate 5 per cent. of take place during the family school holidays and that the world’s science and research. This country is at the has not been the subject of any consultation. Is this not forefront of science and research, therefore, and the an intolerable state of affairs, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and Government have made sure that we invest in it across how can you help Back Benchers to have some power the board. I know that there has been a great deal of over these matters? extra investment in the MOD. I do not know whether some of this research has been mainstreamed into other Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): I am afraid parts of the research community, but I will bring the that these are not matters that can be resolved this hon. Gentleman’s points to the attention of MOD afternoon. The motions have been tabled and they are Ministers. in line with the Standing Orders. It is not a matter for the Chair what the Chairmen’s Panel decides to debate Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): The House when it meets next. The hon. Gentleman is right that will be aware that foreign students who have applied to these matters have to be put today, but his points are study at UK universities are now withdrawing those now on the record and will be thought through by those applications in droves because they cannot negotiate people who need to consider such matters. the new and impossible visa application system. As a consequence, universities will be in financial distress because of the loss of fees that they had been expecting Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Further to from foreign students. Will the Leader of the House that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Cannot my find an appropriate Minister to make a statement to the hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) House, as this matter falls between the stools of two find some consolation in the fact that, as a matter of Departments? We must provide some triage for this procedure, these motions are votable? year, and make sure that changes are made to guard Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes, that is correct. against a permanent loss of foreign students from the UK education system.

Ms Harman: The hon. Lady is right that foreign students are a very important part of our further and higher education system, but they are also important for our economic prospects as students from all around the world are familiar with Britain from having studied here. I am sure that action on the issues the hon. Lady has raised is already in hand, but I will get the Minister to write to her. 967 25 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 968

Business of the House My right hon. and learned Friend gave several answers at business questions on the issue of the parliamentary Motion made, and Question proposed, reform Committee. We are moving ahead on a consensual That, at this day’s sitting, the Speaker shall put the Questions basis, in consultation with all interested parties, and we necessary to dispose of proceedings on: hope to bring forward an agreed resolution as soon as (a) the Motion in the name of Ms Harriet Harman relating to possible. The motion on the science Committee is included Regional Select Committee (London) not later than one hour in the next motion on the Order Paper. after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order; and (b) the Motions in the name of Ms Harriet Harman relating to 1.4 pm Standing Orders Etc. (Machinery of Government Changes) and Parliamentary Pensions not later than five o’clock; Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I had such Questions shall include the Questions on any Amendments not intended to participate in this debate, but in the selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; the Questions light of the incredibly disingenuous remarks from the may be put after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order Deputy Leader of the House, I shall do so. Surely she No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Barbara Keeley.) would accept that the way to ensure consultation with people in the regions is to consult Members to see 1.1 pm whether the dates proposed for the meetings of these Grand Committees are convenient. The substantive Mr. Shailesh Vara (North-West Cambridgeshire) (Con): motions are not debatable, so perhaps I may take this We have the extraordinary situation in which we are opportunity to ask the Deputy Leader of the House—I discussing a business motion, but a substantial part would be happy to give way to her—to explain why the of the business has already been withdrawn by the dates chosen are reasonable— Government. Given that the motion to establish a Select Committee on the reform of the House was withdrawn yesterday—the same day that it was tabled—the House Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. The will have much more time than it would otherwise have hon. Gentleman is widening the debate a little too far. It had to discuss the remaining motions. is not his fault, because both Front Benchers have led him astray, but I would be grateful if he would now May I put on the record my agreement with the confine his remarks to the motion. comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) and say that it is regrettable that we will not have the opportunity to debate the Mr. Chope: The motions curtail the debate today to motions on the Regional Committees, especially as 5 pm at the latest, when the Divisions will take place. there has been no consultation on them? That means However, I understand that the Government intend to that Members will have more than enough time to make accept the amendment on motion 5, which means that their views plain on the proposal to establish a Regional there will be a potential gap between 5 pm and Select Committee for London, as well as to comment 6 pm—perhaps even a longer gap if the debate finishes on the motion to change the Select Committee structure early—during which time it would be possible to discuss that follows the recent reshuffle and consequent changes other issues. to Departments. I see no reason why we will not have enough time to Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Does my consider the proposal to have a science and technology hon. Friend agree that the time necessary to debate Committee, a point that was made at last week’s business these matters could have been much less if proper questions by many hon. Members. We should also have consultation had taken place beforehand? more than enough time to debate the motion and amendment on parliamentary pensions. Following the Mr. Chope: I agree with my right hon. Friend. Government’s U-turn last night on their proposals, we Consultation is the key, and it is clear that it is not all look forward to the Leader of the House explaining taking place between occupants of the Front Benches her new position. It is not the intention of the Opposition or with Back Benchers on key procedural matters. If the to put the business motion to a Division, but this Deputy Leader of the House is too stubborn to admit motion shows the Government’s complete disarray. that she has made a mistake on this occasion, perhaps she will reflect on the fact that this is causing immense 1.3 pm disquiet among Back Benchers, who feel left out of the loop. They have been presented with a fait accompli—the The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of motions that cannot be amended—and are frustrated to the House of Commons (Barbara Keeley): There will be note that the Government are wasting the House’s time great rejoicing that there is so much support for and at the same time as they are forcing legislation through interest in the Regional Grand Committees in motions on tight timetables. 6 to 13. That underlines the point that my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House has been I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House will making—that Members on both sides of the House agree that these are issues of immense gravity and should take part in Regional Committees and ensure seriousness, and go to the heart of the question whether that all those initiatives, including the Grand Committees, this is a Chamber of the legislature or just somewhere go forward as robustly as possible and extend regional for the Executive to do their own thing. accountability, which I am sure we all support. Question put and agreed to. 969 25 JUNE 2009 Regional Select Committee (London) 970

Regional Select Committee (London) Ms Harman: If the hon. Lady will bear with me, that is exactly what I intend to do as I set out the case for a 1.8 pm Regional Select Committee for London. As I have said, when public bodies spend public The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet money in the public interest, they need to be publicly Harman): I beg to move, accountable through this House to the region they That Standing Order No. 152F be amended by inserting after serve. In the face of a global economic crisis affecting paragraph (1) the following new paragraph: every region, the work of Regional Select Committees is (1A) A select committee shall be appointed for London, to even more important so that we can ensure that public examine the Government’s regional policies for London and the Government’s relationship with the Greater London Authority policy to take action to protect businesses and jobs is and regional bodies. effective, and so that we can be sure that taxpayers’ The establishment of Regional Select Committees money is being used in the most effective way. has been the topic of extensive debate and consideration Without Regional Select Committees, there is an in this House, and this is a planned addition to those accountability gap at regional level. Committees that are already up and running on an experimental basis for the remainder of this Parliament. Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): Will the right The background is that in November 2008, the House hon. and learned Lady give way? decided to put in place an effective and visible improvement in the scrutiny and democratic accountability of the Ms Harman: I will. However, I know that the hon. public agencies and public policies that operate in the Lady’s party is refusing to take part in any of the eight English regions outside London. Regional Select Committees, so it will not surprise In Scotland and Wales, and in every region in England me—although it will be disappointing—if she, too, there are important public agencies spending billions of joins the voices against a Regional Select Committee for pounds. These are public bodies spending public money London. in the public interest, and it is right that they should be publicly accountable, through this House, to the region Susan Kramer: The right hon. and learned Lady they serve. entirely anticipates my view. Will she explain why the accountability gap cannot be filled by using the existing Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) bodies, rather than creating yet another Committee, as (Con): Does the Leader of the House not understand too many cooks are the best way to ensure that real that many Members of Parliament, on both sides of the accountability fails? House, who represent seats in the capital—as we both do—feel that this Committee will be a ludicrous talking shop? We already have full scrutiny by 33 local authorities, Ms Harman: If the hon. Lady will let me get on with the Greater London assembly and the Mayor. In one my speech, I shall answer that question. sense, we also have scrutiny by the Government office On 12 November 2008, the House agreed that there for London, which still exists, more than nine years into should be a Regional Select Committee for each of the the mayoralty. What purpose can a Select Committee administrative regions in England, except for London. really have? London has been treated differently because London has different governance from the other regions, including Ms Harman: As I shall say as I proceed with my different levels of accountability to elected representatives. comments, although there are different levels of I point out to London Members that Wales and Scotland accountability—the London boroughs, the Mayor and also have Select Committees and Grand Committees in the London assembly—there is also an accountability addition to their devolved Assemblies. gap, which this Select Committee is necessary to fill. To put it honestly, it was the Conservatives who thought Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): They also have Welsh there should be no London-wide accountability at all questions and Scottish questions, so why not fill the and abolished the Greater London council. This accountability gap with London questions? Government brought accountability back to London through the London assembly, and strengthened it still Ms Harman: If a London Grand Committee is further with the Mayor. We still think there is an established in addition, it will certainly be possible to accountability gap, which the Select Committee is necessary hold the Minister for London to account. Indeed, it is to fill. possible for all London Members to ask questions of Government Ministers about London issues—whether Mrs. Jacqui Lait (Beckenham) (Con): Will the right those Ministers are in the Home Office or the Department hon. and learned Lady give way? of Health—and they do. Ms Harman: I will give way to the hon. Lady, who was We took the view that the different governance no doubt in the vanguard of plans to abolish the GLC. arrangements in London warranted further consideration in the light of the experience of the other Regional Mrs. Lait: I think most Conservatives are still pleased Select Committees. We felt that that consideration and that the GLC went. Will the right hon. and learned further consultation should take place before we came Lady please list those bodies in London that are not to the House with this proposal. Before and during the already scrutinised by the Greater London authority—other debate, Members, as well as those outside the House, than the Government office for London, which should made representations to me for a London Select Committee of course be scrutinised by the relevant Department—that and I committed to bringing forward proposals to the this Regional Select Committee should consider? House, following further consultation. 971 Regional Select Committee (London)25 JUNE 2009 Regional Select Committee (London) 972

Ms Karen Buck (Regent’s Park and Kensington, North) of the current economic difficulties and that, for the (Lab): I welcome this initiative. Does my right hon. and people in each region, the necessary effective action is learned Friend agree that it is important that a Regional delivered. Select Committee should not attempt to cover the same In light of the experience of the Committees, it is now ground as the Greater London authority, which has an right to bring forward the motion to establish a Select important scrutiny role in relation to the Mayor? London Committee for London. We propose that the London has some very definite regional characteristics relating Select Committee should have the same powers and to its public services and labour market, and it is very composition as those of the other Select Committees important that we should be able not just to question for the regions. As I said, there are different governance the Minister, but to do some in-depth work to investigate arrangements in London, such as an elected Mayor and these problems and to make representations about regional the London assembly. Some of the regional bodies, interests. such as Transport for London and the London Development Agency, are accountable to the Mayor Ms Harman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The and subject to scrutiny from the assembly. However, Select Committee needs to fill that accountability gap. there are many important areas of national policy on Of course, we support the work of the London boroughs public services that impact on London—including health, and they should be working actively on the economy and crime reduction—and are the responsibility of Ministers and employment issues that she mentioned. We set up as well as the London boroughs. the Greater London authority and we brought forward The Government retain considerable responsibility the legislation for a Mayor for London. Far from for delivery by many key agencies and non-departmental undermining their roles, we want to strengthen public bodies operating in London, including NHS accountability in London. There remains a gap, and the London, the learning and skills council, Jobcentre Plus Select Committee will fill it. and Her Majesty’s Courts Service and Prison Service. Although we acknowledge the differences between London Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Will and other regions, London should not be denied the the right hon. and learned Lady give way? opportunity afforded to other regions to hold such bodies to account, on Londoners’ behalf, through their Ms Harman: I will press on with my speech, if I may. Members of Parliament. Since March 2009, Regional Select Committees have Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): A very good been undertaking their work. Following the agreement example of that is the current review of acute stroke of the House, all the Committees have been set up, they and major trauma services going on within NHS London, have members and they have selected Chairs. All have in which the boroughs are advancing different positions. announced their first inquiries. All are considering some As a regional issue that is below the radar of the Select aspect of the recession’s effect on the regional economy, Committee on Health, is that not an ideal example of and the response of Government and agencies to that. how a London Committee could do some value-added They have completed the written evidence stages and work to hold NHS London to account and check are now hearing oral evidence. By the summer recess, whether those proposals are indeed in the interests of the Committees will have held some 20 public evidence Londoners? sessions. One important aspect of the work of these Committees Ms Harman: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. is their capacity to take evidence from a wide range of As a Member of Parliament for a London constituency, stakeholders in the specific region, achieving important I know that there are issues on which London MPs, locally focused engagement. Meetings have taken place working through a Select Committee, could achieve across the English regions under the purview of the greater accountability on my constituents’ behalf. Regional Select Committees—for example, in Barnsley, Health issues, for example, inevitably cross constituency Liverpool, Reading, Gateshead and Swindon. boundaries. They do not fall within the purview of the Many regional organisations, such as the regional London boroughs and are not the responsibility of the branches of the Federation of Small Businesses, the assembly. On their own, they would justify the work of regional organisation of the CBI, the citizens advice a Regional Select Committee, so I strongly agree with bureaux and the learning and skills councils, together my hon. Friend. with representatives of industry and banking, have appeared The motion has been subject to consultation with before the Regional Select Committees to offer their hon. Members, the Mayor of London and his office, the expert opinions on how their region is coping with the London assembly and the London boroughs, and my downturn, the effectiveness of public policy in the region right hon. Friend the Minister for London, whom I am and what is needed to support the recovery in that glad to see is here for the debate. It is clear that there is region. Key Government agencies with a role in delivering no consensus about the value of a London Select the Government response to the recession, such as the Committee, even though it would not duplicate the regional development agencies and Government offices, scrutiny that already exists. Instead, it would complement and regional Ministers, have also contributed to the that scrutiny by focusing on the impact of Government investigations undertaken by the Committees. policies in London, including the work of the Government We look forward to the reports from the Regional office for London and the regional bodies. Select Committees in the coming weeks and months, The motion establishes the Committee only for the and to considering how the relevant lessons learned lifetime of this Parliament. At the end of that time, from across the country can help to ensure effective there would be an opportunity to review the London accountability of both policy and spending in the face Committee—if we set it up, which I hope we will—and 973 Regional Select Committee (London)25 JUNE 2009 Regional Select Committee (London) 974

[Ms Harman] Justine Greening: I suppose that I have two responses to that. First, Back Benchers can hold Ministers to all the other Regional Committees to see how they have account: as an Opposition Back Bencher, I think that I worked. Opposition Members are being intransigent if can hold Ministers to account on London issues such as they are not prepared to allow the Regional Select Heathrow as well as anyone. Secondly, although the Committees to be established even on an experimental hon. Lady is right that we need more accountability, basis until the end of the Parliament. why can we not get that through having London questions? I hope that hon. Members will reflect on the matter Why spend several hundred thousand pounds on a and support a Regional Select Committee to hold Regional Select Committee for London when, as my Government organisations to account on behalf of hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Londoners. I commend the motion to the House. Westminster (Mr. Field) said, when people want not another talking shop but direct and immediate representation, with hon. Members being able to ask 1.21 pm questions and get answers? Surely we should be trying Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): The motion returns that first to see whether it works. us to a subject—the establishment of Regional Select Committees—that the House has debated at some length Mr. Lee Scott (Ilford, North) (Con): An example was already. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch given earlier about health and London’s stroke services. (Mr. Chope) is no longer in his place, but we heard his Does my hon. Friend agree that the people best placed concerns about how these proposals are being rolled to scrutinise such matters would be the health committees out. I do not want to reprise the earlier debate about of the London boroughs? They deal with such matters establishing Regional Select Committees across the rest daily, in liaison with Members of Parliament. Surely of the country, as I want to focus on London, but I shall they would be best placed to scrutinise what is going on. give a brief rundown of the various concerns expressed. The first concern was that Regional Select Committees Justine Greening: I thoroughly agree with my hon. would cost a lot of money and that there were better Friend. alternatives. Secondly, concerns were expressed about their composition and the fact that there was no mechanism allowing MPs not from a particular region to be on that Mr. Dismore: The hon. Lady mentioned having a region’s Committee. The same concern has been expressed London Question Time, but she will be aware that in in respect of London, but people were worried above all such sessions a Member asking a question gets only one that the Regional Select Committees’ work would duplicate supplementary, and that only two or three supplementary the important work done by the 41 Select Committees questions will be asked from around the House on any that already exist. We have similar concerns about a particular matter. A good contrast to illustrate the London Regional Select Committee. point is provided by the Liaison Committee’s questioning of the Prime Minister. Instead of the half-hour bun The Leader of the House said that the objective was fight that we have on Wednesday afternoons, the Liaison to fill an accountability gap. We all recognise London’s Committee gets the Prime Minister for two and a half unique devolution settlement, and we agreed that there hours, which means that we can develop themes in great was an accountability gap in other parts of the country, detail and question him at length. We simply could not but we did not believe that that problem could be solved do the same in a London Question Time. by setting up a new Regional Select Committee to go alongside the unaccountable regional development agencies, regional assemblies and all the other quangos that we Justine Greening: Approximately 60-plus MPs will have at regional level. We believe that the solution is to not be able to be part of any London Regional Select make sure that all the decisions taken by those bodies Committee because it will have only nine members. A should be taken further down in local government. London MP who does not belong to that Regional Regional Select Committees would not then have to Select Committee will not have the same opportunities look at those matters, as they would be scrutinised and as would be provided by a London Question Time. decided at a much more local level than is currently If the objective is to scrutinise policy as it affects the case. London, that is already fulfilled by existing Select As the Leader of the House said, London has a Committees, as some of the reports undertaken over unique devolution settlement. We are now on our second the past five years or so demonstrate. For example, the directly elected Mayor, and the London assembly has its Transport Committee has produced reports on the London own elected members. They must feel that the move to congestion charge and the performance of London set up a London Regional Select Committee is a vote of Underground, while the Culture, Media and Sport no confidence by Ministers in the assembly’s ability to Committee has done one on the London Olympics. The scrutinise London and its Mayor. former Education and Skills Committee did a report on skills in London, while the Home Affairs Committee Ms Buck: We have spent the past few weeks in an has produced a report on counterterrorism and community intense debate about how to strengthen the scrutiny role relations in the aftermath of the London bombings. of Members of Parliament and this Chamber. I fail to Only a couple of weeks ago, we were in this Chamber understand how the hon. Lady’s objections to the proposed debating the report from the Home Affairs Committee Committee square with the desire of her party leaders on knife crime that had a clear resonance for London. to ensure that Members of Parliament can be more There is nothing to prevent Select Committees from active in holding Ministers and those who run public looking at London issues where they are of real importance, services to account. and they do that already. 975 Regional Select Committee (London)25 JUNE 2009 Regional Select Committee (London) 976

Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Does Those are not my words but those of London Councils not the intervention by the hon. Member for Hendon when they were consulted. The Leader of the House (Mr. Dismore) illustrate the Government’s wrong-headed was right when she said that there had not been consensus. approach to the proposal for a London Regional Select London Councils said: Committee? Mention has been made of having a London “In principle London Councils believes that increased local Question Time, but should not any concern about scrutiny accountability can be better achieved by broadening the scope of be addressed by the London assembly, which should existing scrutiny mechanisms”. ensure that its structures and procedures in that regard Apparently, that view was ignored; yet again, top-down are robust? If scrutiny in areas such as health needs to management from the Government. be improved, should that not be devolved to the London I shall draw my comments to a close. Ministers must boroughs? realise that the electorate’s concern right now is not just Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. about the quality of government, and its quantity—of That is another option for tackling the problem that the course there is too much of that; a plethora of Government say exists, but is not the Mayor already unaccountable regional government tiers has been set accountable to Parliament? He is directly accountable up. There is also concern about the quality of our to Londoners, of course, and he is also scrutinised by democracy. the London assembly, but he is also summoned here regularly to be held to account by Select Committees. Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): Even the previous Mayor was up in front of Select My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. One of the Committees seven times in eight years, when he was things I have tried to get the Leader of the House to do asked about a whole range of issues. The new Mayor is to hold an annual debate on London, just as we have has been in place for just over a year, but in that short a debate on Wales on St. David’s day. Would that not be period he has already appeared before five Select another way for us to raise London issues and put our Committees. Clearly, therefore, MPs can scrutinise what concerns on record, rather than having the costs and the Mayor is doing through topical investigations by administration of a new Committee? existing Select Committees, and they can also question him directly. Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is quite right. That People in city hall will probably look at this debate would be yet another option for ensuring that London and feel that it is a little top down. A lot of debate goes MPs could hold to account people who are taking on here about issues that really matter to London, and decisions that affect Londoners, but of course it is yet the assembly and the Mayor must wonder why they probably too good an idea to be considered by the cannot summon MPs. For example, we voted here about Government because they are so wedded to their costly, post office closures after Londoners had made it clear duplicative and interfering Regional Select Committee that they wanted the closure programme to end. The approach that they seem hell-bent on taking it no Mayor and London assembly must wonder why they matter how much it costs and how ineffective it will be. cannot summon MPs and relevant Ministers about such matters, or why the Secretary of State for Transport Mr. Chope: I feel entitled to participate in the debate cannot be summoned to explain the decision to go because I was born in Putney and was a great supporter ahead with the expansion of Heathrow, even though it of the abolition of the Greater London council. Does goes against what Londoners want. my hon. Friend think that underlying the motion is the Why are Ministers trying to undermine the London Government’s state of denial, because they were defeated assembly? As my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, in the recent London mayoral election? Southgate (Mr. Burrowes) says, one of the options should be further to strengthen the London assembly, Justine Greening: I did not want to make the debate but we hear no discussion of that—everything is top-down. excessively political because I think that at heart the approach is structurally wrong for accountability whichever Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): One of the arguments Mayor and whichever Government are in power. However, that the hon. Lady puts for a London Committee is my hon. Friend is right to touch on that point. What based on the inaccurate information she has just given concerns me about the proposals is that they feel like about post office closures across London. If we had had the politicisation of Select Committees, which have the opportunity to scrutinise such proposals as a London- always been independent of the Executive. That has wide body, we might have had more success in protecting always been their biggest strength. post offices. Is she seriously saying that as a London It feels to me as though the Leader of the House, like Member of Parliament she does not want a say on so many of her Cabinet colleagues, is merely shifting the strategic issues that involve a number of Departments, deckchairs on the Labour Government Titanic. The and possibly the Mayor and city hall as well, and to biggest danger is that the proposals could undermine come up with reports to try to guide the Government the effectiveness of our local devolution in London, and the Mayor in the direction the people we represent through the Mayor and the London assembly. As my want us to take? hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) said, Londoners had their say in the mayoral election Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman seeks to create last year. Now, like the rest of the country, we want to a mish-mash of democracy where MPs would be attempting have our say about the accountability gap, which is real, slightly to play the role of London assembly members. but a general election will fill that gap, not a London London assembly members are unable ultimately to Regional Select Committee. We have elected our Mayor, scrutinise all the matters that affect London, but what now we want the chance to elect new MPs and a Prime we need to do is make the existing structure work better. Minister who actually has a real mandate. 977 Regional Select Committee (London)25 JUNE 2009 Regional Select Committee (London) 978

1.34 pm Kerslake to discuss the policies of his agency towards London. It has actually been very difficult for us to get Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): I certainly hold of him to discuss some of the issues. welcome the proposals, which are long overdue. We should have considered them six months ago when the Earlier, I mentioned the NHS London consultation, other Regional Select Committees were being proposed. which has just closed, on proposals for acute trauma It is a regrettable oversight that the London Committee and stroke services—if we can call it consultation, and I was not proposed at the time, and I am grateful to my have been quite critical of it. The proposals were of right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House major interest in each of our boroughs, which have for listening to the representations made by my hon. advanced different positions. For example, there are Friends and me that London should be included in the proposals for four major trauma units. The fourth will programme of Regional Committees. be at either the Royal Free or St. Mary’s, and there are significant differences across London about which should The Opposition put a false dichotomy. From my be chosen. Indeed, some people argue whether four is point of view, the more we scrutinise the activities of the right number. the Government and Government bodies, the better. I see no objection to a London Question Time; it is a Similarly, in relation to stroke services, there is a good idea. I see no objection to an annual debate on strong argument about whether the eight places selected London; that is a good idea, too. Indeed, when I was are the right ones for hyper-units and, again, whether first elected, we used to have an annual debate on eight is the right number. The best way of dealing with policing in London—usually on a Friday morning, but that issue would be to call Ruth Carnall and the other it was welcome nevertheless. However, there is no reason people at the top of NHS London who are involved to why, having accepted and indeed agreed with those give evidence to a London Select Committee and answer propositions, we should not also have a Select Committee those very detailed questions. for London, because there is no doubt that there is a significant accountability gap for various bodies for Mrs. Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): The which the Government are responsible. hon. Gentleman and I are as one on the importance of stroke services and major trauma centres, but he has not Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): Can the hon. explained why a London Select Committee will be more Gentleman envisage the London Select Committee, were effective in highlighting those issues than the Great it to be in place, considering a matter that had been London assembly, which his Government created. devolved to the London assembly and reaching a different conclusion from the assembly? There would thus be two Mr. Dismore: Because the NHS is a central Government separate bodies with different conclusions about how a service—I would have thought that that answer was policy should be set, or how a matter should be resolved. self-evident. The NHS is accountable to the House, like What would be the pecking order between the London the Government, but it is only indirectly accountable to Select Committee and the London assembly? the GLA and the London assembly. Borough scrutiny committees will of course examine health issues, but Mr. Dismore: It would be most unlikely that the only from the perspective of their individual borough. Select Committee would want to look at something that The hon. Lady will know that Barnet, which we represent, was entirely devolved to the London assembly, although has formed a particular view, but that is very different we might find that there were areas of joint or overlapping from Hammersmith’s view. How can those differences responsibility. Of course, it is possible to come to a of view be reconciled except through an overarching different conclusion, but that does not necessarily mean inquiry by a pan-London Select Committee of the that different conclusions should not be reached or House that scrutinises officials and holds them to account? considered. Think-tanks in the outside world come to Such a Committee will be able to call officials such as different conclusions. There is nothing wrong with that; Ruth Carnall and the medical experts who have been it helps to inform debate and, ultimately, leads to better giving opinions as part of the consultation. Indeed, decision making when different points of view are expressed they could be held to account for the appalling way in after detailed consideration. which the consultation has been conducted. The hon. Lady is right; there may be different conclusions. For example, there are significant overlapping Mrs. Villiers: One advantage that the GLA would responsibilities on housing policy. There are the Mayor’s have over a London Select Committee when scrutinising responsibilities. He has just published his draft housing such matters is that its members would have been elected strategy, with which I profoundly disagree, signally on by Londoners, whereas I understand that a London the abolition of targets for affordable homes. The boroughs Select Committee could have members from all over the have housing policies, some of which are in conflict country. with the Mayor because the boroughs are trying to negotiate different numbers. There is the Government’s Mr. Dismore: I hope that would be very unlikely. If overarching strategy to try to provide decent, affordable the motion on membership of the Committee included homes for the people of London. The role of the a plethora of non-London Members, I for one would Homes and Communities Agency, a central Government not vote for it, and I doubt that the hon. Lady would body, is vital in that operation. Indeed, a round of either. I, like her, have certainly been elected by Londoners. negotiations is going on between my borough and the HCA to try to get the money needed to support some of Mrs. Lait: May I dig a little deeper into the Select the regeneration schemes, which have run into the sand Committee’s role that the hon. Gentleman envisages? for reasons that I will not go into now. It would be Following the ongoing consultation on stroke and trauma, helpful if a London Select Committee could call Mr. Bob is he suggesting that after the strategic health authority’s 979 Regional Select Committee (London)25 JUNE 2009 Regional Select Committee (London) 980 board reaches a conclusion, it could be overruled by the something that is central Government’s responsibility, Select Committee? In such circumstances, would the but I was picking up the point made by the hon. SHA have a role as the body that should make decisions Member for Upminster and setting out an area of about London health, or would it be subservient to the overlap. I fully accept that the GLA and the Mayor’s London Committee? office are examining some of these policies, but responsibility for the economy lies with Treasury Ministers, and Mr. Dismore: The hon. Lady knows that that is not we can hold Ministers to account through the Select the constitutional position. Members of the House are Committee process in a way that the GLA cannot. That not the Executive, but the legislature. In that context, is why it is important that we establish the Committee London’s SHA is part of government and must be held although, of course, there would be no reason why the to account for the decisions that it makes. It would not Committee could not take account of work carried out be for the Select Committee to overrule the SHA, but it elsewhere. We must, however, recognise where the would be able to express its views and opinions to responsibility lies. influence the debate and the decision-making process. The ultimate decision would be taken by Health Ministers Justine Greening: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, and the SHA, but it would be the job of London but I think that he is forgetting to whom he is accountable. Members—collectively, through the Select Committee—to If we asked any owner of a small shop whether they inform the debate. would prefer money to be spent on a Regional Committee The hon. Member for Putney (Justine Greening) that reports on the recession in London, but duplicates talked about post office closures in response to an all the work of the Mayor and the GLA, or spent on intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for directly supporting shops, they would probably go for Eltham (Clive Efford). I have no axe to grind because I the latter. He talks about this as though it is an interest was one of the rebels on post office closure, but it is point and a study programme, but we are meant to be important to bear it in mind that responsibility for post representing our constituents and working alongside offices lay with Business, Enterprise and Regulatory other tiers of government. He suggests going far beyond Reform Ministers at that time. The London Committee that with a structure that will be sheer duplication and could have held BERR Ministers to account and discussed will cost taxpayers money that they cannot afford. policies on post office closures with them, and then the Committee could have formed a view. That could not Mr. Dismore: I disagree with the hon. Lady. The same have been achieved in any other way except through the would be true if we asked anyone whether they would much wider debate on post office closures, which was like money spent on one thing rather than another. very difficult to participate in because many Members Given the reputation of the House in the outside world, wished to speak. people would probably suggest abolishing the lot of us My hon. Friend the Member for Regent’s Park and and spending the money on something else, but that is Kensington, North (Ms Buck) talked about employment not really the answer to the point. We are trying to policy. We all accept that London’s economy is different develop effective scrutiny. from the rest of the country’s. London faces challenging I see that time is running out, so I shall draw my economic circumstances and, in the light of what has remarks to a close. I believe that the proposed Committee happened in the City, the problems facing its labour will be a valuable addition to the scrutiny of policy market are completely different from those in other affecting London and Londoners. parts of the country. Neither the Treasury Committee nor the Work and Pensions Committee is holding an inquiry into London’s job market, but the London 1.47 pm Committee would probably want to examine the way in Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Hon. which Government policy affects London’s labour market Members will be familiar with the background to the in the City and throughout the wider city. To pick up setting up of Regional Select Committees and the crucial the point made by the hon. Member for Upminster vote on their composition, which was won with a Cabinet (Angela Watkinson), such an inquiry could involve Minister’s casting vote. The Leader of the House knows working with the London Development Agency and that my party does not object in principle to the the GLA, but given that economic policy is a matter for establishment of Regional Committees or the London central Government, a London Committee should hold Committee, but we object to the composition agreed by central Government Ministers to account on their policy the Government. We also have doubts about the ability for London. of Regional Committees and the London Committee to do their job of holding Government agencies and quangos Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman makes an to account. interesting case. He says that economic policy in London is fairly and squarely a matter for the House, so he must The process cannot work without real consultation—my be unaware of the huge amount of work being done hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome under the Mayor’s auspices in city hall to determine (Mr. Heath) gave an example of a complete lack of what can be done to help Londoners and London’s consultation during business questions—or when Members economy to navigate their way through the recession. in a region are not represented in the right proportion His suggestion sounds like an absolute duplication of on a Regional Select Committee. I acknowledge that what the London assembly and the Mayor are trying to the London Committee will be one of the few—if not deliver for London. the only—Regional Committee whose membership, albeit completely by chance, reflects the proportion of MPs in Mr. Dismore: I do not think that the hon. Lady was the region. The process certainly cannot work effectively listening to what I said. I was giving an example of if, as is the case on other Regional Committees, a complementary responsibility. I cited the NHS to illustrate Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary is holding 981 Regional Select Committee (London)25 JUNE 2009 Regional Select Committee (London) 982

[Tom Brake] and the Mayor. London Members do not feel quite as engaged, or that they have as much responsibility, as that Minister to account. That is not a way of ensuring they did prior to the implementation of the Greater that regional quangos and other bodies are scrutinised London Authority Act 1999. However, there are other effectively, as it clearly involves a significant conflict of ways in which we can boost scrutiny, and give Members interest. The Leader of the House talks about Opposition greater oversight of the matters that are still of interest intransigence, but she would do better to consider whether to them in London, without setting up a London Regional there is intransigence on the part of the Government Select Committee. and an unwillingness to be flexible about the composition of the Regional Committees. The Liberal Democrats Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): The hon. therefore cannot agree to the establishment of the London Gentleman referred to the scrutiny role, and to the role Regional Committee. As I have stated, I acknowledge of powers. It is not clear whether the London Select that the composition of the London Committee would Committee would have any powers at all, or whether it roughly reflect the number of MPs of different parties would simply be a scrutiny body. It is difficult to see across London, but that has happened by accident, how it could influence decision making in this place, in rather than design. the London assembly, or in any other public body, The second reason why we have serious reservations unless it had powers. However, if it had powers it would about the establishment of the London Select Committee be creating duplication, as he rightly said. is that we, like the Government, wanted a transfer of powers when the Greater London authority was set up. Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. Indeed, we wanted a more significant transfer of powers My assumption is that the London Select Committee to the Mayor and the London assembly than there has would have the same powers as every other Select been. In many ways, that would have done away with Committee; in other words, it would have the power to the need for a Regional Select Committee, because the make recommendations and to bring Ministers to appear Mayor and the assembly would have held more powers, before it. However, in practice, as we Members all know, so the scrutiny role would have been undertaken by the if the Government, or possibly the Mayor or the London assembly. It would have had a wider range of powers assembly, choose to disregard those recommendations, and responsibilities to consider, so there would have there is nothing that we Members can do about it, apart been even less demand for a London Regional Select from draw attention to it in debate and so on. I agree Committee. However, I accept that certain areas of that that is a valid point to which Ministers need to Government policy would remain within the remit or respond. control of the national Government, rather than the To conclude, there are no guarantees about the London London government. Hon. Members have referred to Select Committee’s composition, and there is not clarity health; there is no reason why significant health powers about what scrutiny it will provide that is not provided could not be delivered at a London region level, rather by the London assembly. Until that clarity is there, the than provided by national Government locally in London. proposal cannot be allowed to proceed. If so, it would have made sense for the assembly to Question put. conduct scrutiny at that London level. The House divided: Ayes 224, Noes 132. We have the same concerns as others do about the duplication that is taking place. When the London Division No. 157] [1.55 pm assembly and the Mayor’s powers were set up, the expectation was that the Government office for London AYES would go, but its powers and budget seem to have Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Burden, Richard increased, rather than decreased. There is no end in Allen, Mr. Graham Butler, Ms Dawn sight to the duplication that arises as a result of the Anderson, Mr. David Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Government office for London remaining in place after Bailey, Mr. Adrian Byrne, rh Mr. Liam the creation of the assembly and of the London Mayor’s Baird, Vera Cairns, David Balls, rh Ed Campbell, Mr. Alan powers. Banks, Gordon Caton, Mr. Martin If there is an issue relating to scrutiny, by all means Battle, rh John Cawsey, Mr. Ian let us look at whether the assembly needs additional Bayley, Hugh Chapman, Ben powers; it could also propose additional powers itself. Begg, Miss Anne Clapham, Mr. Michael There may be issues to do with the extent to which it Bell, Sir Stuart Clark, Paul carries out its scrutiny role, particularly as regards the Benton, Mr. Joe Clarke, rh Mr. Charles London Development Agency and the £100 million Berry, Roger Clarke, rh Mr. Tom that may or may not be missing. If there are issues, I am Betts, Mr. Clive Clelland, Mr. David sure that they can be addressed. Other hon. Members Blackman, Liz Coaker, Mr. Vernon have made sensible suggestions about having a London Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Coffey, Ann Question Time or an annual debate in the House about Blunkett, rh Mr. David Cohen, Harry London. Borrow, Mr. David S. Cook, Frank Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Cooper, Rosie Members who have been in the House as long as I Brennan, Kevin Cooper, rh Yvette have, or roughly as long, will know that in earlier years, Brown, Lyn Creagh, Mary but not so much in the past couple of years, we had a Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Cryer, Mrs. Ann series of one-and-a-half-hour Adjournment debates on Brown, Mr. Russell Cummings, John London issues, on subjects such as the police or health. Browne, rh Des Cunningham, Mr. Jim That seems to have died down, partly, I suspect, as a Bryant, Chris Cunningham, Tony result of the transfer of powers to the London assembly Buck, Ms Karen David, Mr. Wayne 983 Regional Select Committee (London)25 JUNE 2009 Regional Select Committee (London) 984

Dean, Mrs. Janet Lammy, rh Mr. David Taylor, Ms Dari Whitehead, Dr. Alan Devine, Mr. Jim Laxton, Mr. Bob Taylor, David Wicks, rh Malcolm Dismore, Mr. Andrew Lazarowicz, Mark Thomas, Mr. Gareth Williams, Mrs. Betty Dobbin, Jim Lepper, David Thornberry, Emily Wills, rh Mr. Michael Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Levitt, Tom Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Wilson, Phil Doran, Mr. Frank Linton, Martin Touhig, rh Mr. Don Winnick, Mr. David Drew, Mr. David Lloyd, Tony Trickett, Jon Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Eagle, Angela Love, Mr. Andrew Turner, Dr. Desmond Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Eagle, Maria Lucas, Ian Turner, Mr. Neil Woolas, Mr. Phil Efford, Clive Mackinlay, Andrew Twigg, Derek Wright, Mr. Anthony Ellman, Mrs. Louise Malik, Mr. Shahid Ussher, Kitty Wright, David Engel, Natascha Mann, John Vaz, rh Keith Wright, Mr. Iain Field, rh Mr. Frank McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Walley, Joan Wright, Dr. Tony Fisher, Mark McCabe, Steve Waltho, Lynda Tellers for the Ayes: Fitzpatrick, Jim McCarthy, Kerry Ward, Claire Mark Tami and Flello, Mr. Robert McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Watson, Mr. Tom Mr. Dave Watts Flint, rh Caroline McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Follett, Barbara McDonagh, Siobhain Foster, Michael Jabez McFall, rh John NOES (Hastings and Rye) McGovern, Mr. Jim Afriyie, Adam Holloway, Mr. Adam Francis, Dr. Hywel McIsaac, Shona Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Holmes, Paul Gapes, Mike McKechin, Ann Amess, Mr. David Horam, Mr. John Gardiner, Barry McKenna, Rosemary Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Horwood, Martin Gerrard, Mr. Neil Merron, Gillian Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Howarth, David Gilroy, Linda Michael, rh Alun Atkinson, Mr. Peter Howell, John Goggins, rh Paul Miliband, rh Edward Bacon, Mr. Richard Hunter, Mark Goodman, Helen Miller, Andrew Baldry, Tony Jack, rh Mr. Michael Griffith, Nia Mitchell, Mr. Austin Baron, Mr. John Jackson, Mr. Stewart Grogan, Mr. John Moffatt, Laura Beith, rh Sir Alan Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Gwynne, Andrew Mole, Chris Bellingham, Mr. Henry Jones, Mr. David Hain, rh Mr. Peter Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Beresford, Sir Paul Keetch, Mr. Paul Hall, Patrick Morden, Jessica Bone, Mr. Peter Key, Robert Hamilton, Mr. David Morgan, Julie Brake, Tom Kirkbride, Miss Julie Hanson, rh Mr. David Mudie, Mr. George Browne, Mr. Jeremy Knight, rh Mr. Greg Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Browning, Angela Kramer, Susan Healey, rh John Naysmith, Dr. Doug Burns, Mr. Simon Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Norris, Dan Burrowes, Mr. David Lewis, Dr. Julian Heppell, Mr. John O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Burt, Alistair Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Hesford, Stephen Osborne, Sandra Butterfill, Sir John Lidington, Mr. David Heyes, David Owen, Albert Cable, Dr. Vincent Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Hill, rh Keith Palmer, Dr. Nick Carswell, Mr. Douglas Loughton, Tim Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Pearson, Ian Chope, Mr. Christopher Luff, Peter Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Pope, Mr. Greg Cormack, Sir Patrick Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Hope, Phil Prentice, Bridget Davies, Philip Main, Anne Howarth, rh Mr. George Prentice, Mr. Gordon Davis, rh David Mates, rh Mr. Michael Howells, rh Dr. Kim Primarolo, rh Dawn Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan McIntosh, Miss Anne Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Prosser, Gwyn Duddridge, James McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Humble, Mrs. Joan Purchase, Mr. Ken Duncan, Alan Miller, Mrs. Maria Hutton, rh Mr. John Rammell, Bill Evennett, Mr. David Moss, Mr. Malcolm Iddon, Dr. Brian Reed, Mr. Jamie Field, Mr. Mark Murrison, Dr. Andrew Illsley, Mr. Eric Riordan, Mrs. Linda Foster, Mr. Don Neill, Robert Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, John Fox, Dr. Liam O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Jackson, Glenda Roy, Lindsay Gale, Mr. Roger Öpik, Lembit Jenkins, Mr. Brian Russell, Christine Gauke, Mr. David Ottaway, Richard Johnson, rh Alan Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad George, Andrew Paice, Mr. James Johnson, Ms Diana R. Seabeck, Alison Gibb, Mr. Nick Penning, Mike Jones, Helen Sharma, Mr. Virendra Gidley, Sandra Penrose, John Jones, Lynne Sheridan, Jim Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Randall, Mr. John Jones, Mr. Martyn Short, rh Clare Goodwill, Mr. Robert Redwood, rh Mr. John Jowell, rh Tessa Simon, Mr. Siôn Gray, Mr. James Reid, Mr. Alan Joyce, Mr. Eric Skinner, Mr. Dennis Greening, Justine Rennie, Willie Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Slaughter, Mr. Andy Gummer, rh Mr. John Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Keeble, Ms Sally Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Hague, rh Mr. William Robathan, Mr. Andrew Keeley, Barbara Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Hands, Mr. Greg Rosindell, Andrew Keen, Alan Snelgrove, Anne Harper, Mr. Mark Russell, Bob Keen, Ann Soulsby, Sir Peter Harris, Dr. Evan Sanders, Mr. Adrian Kemp, Mr. Fraser Spellar, rh Mr. John Heath, Mr. David Scott, Mr. Lee Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Heathcoat-Amory, rh Selous, Andrew Kidney, Mr. David Stewart, Ian Mr. David Spicer, Sir Michael Knight, rh Jim Stoate, Dr. Howard Herbert, Nick Spring, Mr. Richard Kumar, Dr. Ashok Straw, rh Mr. Jack Hoban, Mr. Mark Stanley, rh Sir John Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Stuart, Ms Gisela Hollobone, Mr. Philip Steen, Mr. Anthony 985 Regional Select Committee (London) 25 JUNE 2009 986

Streeter, Mr. Gary Watkinson, Angela Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of Stuart, Mr. Graham Webb, Steve Stunell, Andrew Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Government Changes) Swayne, Mr. Desmond Williams, Mr. Roger [Relevant documents: The Fourth Special Report from Swinson, Jo Willis, Mr. Phil the Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Committee, Swire, Mr. Hugo Willott, Jenny on the future of science scrutiny following the merger of Syms, Mr. Robert Wilson, Mr. Rob DIUS and BERR, HC 662, is relevant.] Timpson, Mr. Edward Winterton, Ann Turner, Mr. Andrew Winterton, Sir Nicholas Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Yeo, Mr. Tim 2.8 pm Vara, Mr. Shailesh Young, rh Sir George The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Younger-Ross, Richard the House of Commons (Barbara Keeley): I beg to move, Walker, Mr. Charles Tellers for the Noes: That, with effect from 1 October 2009, the following amendments Wallace, Mr. Ben Bill Wiggin and and related provisions be made in respect of Standing Orders: Waterson, Mr. Nigel Jeremy Wright A. SELECT COMMITTEES RELATED TO GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS Question accordingly agreed to. (1) That Standing Order No. 152 (Select committees related to Ordered, government departments) be amended in the Table in paragraph (2) as follows— That Standing Order No. 152F be amended by inserting after (a) leave out items 1 and 11; and paragraph (1) the following new paragraph: (b) insert, in the appropriate places, the following items: (1A) A select committee shall be appointed for London, to examine the Government’s regional policies for London and the Government’s relationship with the Greater London Authority Business, Innovation and Department for Business, and regional bodies. Skills Innovation and Skills 11 Science and Technology Government Office for Science 14

B. RELATED PROVISIONS (2) That all proceedings of the House and of its select committees in this Parliament in respect of the Business and Enterprise Committee and of the Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Committee shall be deemed to have been in respect of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee and the Science and Technology Committee, respectively. (3) That for the purposes of Standing Order No. 122A (Term limits for chairmen of select committees) the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee and the Science and Technology Committee shall be deemed to be the same committees as the Business and Enterprise and Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Committee, respectively. C. LIAISON COMMITTEE (4) That the Resolution of the House of 13 July 2005 relating to Liaison Committee (Membership) be further amended by leaving out, in paragraph (2), ‘Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform’ and ‘Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills’ and inserting, in the appropriate places, ‘Business, Innovation and Skills’ and ‘Science and Technology’. D. EUROPEAN COMMITTEES (5) That Standing Order No. 119 (European Committees) be amended, by leaving out in the Table in paragraph (6) in respect of European Standing Committee C, ‘Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform’ and ‘Innovation, Universities and Skills’ and inserting ‘Business, Innovation and Skills’.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With this we shall discuss the following: Motion 5—Parliamentary Pensions— That this House endorses a package of changes to the Parliamentary pension scheme, backdated to 1 April 2009, which is judged by the Government Actuary to make savings equivalent to 2.9 per cent. of payroll, thus capping the Exchequer contribution at 28.7 per cent., consisting of— (1) an increase in member contribution rates— (a) from 10 to 11.9 per cent. for a pension building up to an accrual rate of 1/40th of final salary for each year of service, (b) from 6 to 7.9 per cent. for a pension building up to an accrual rate of 1/50th, and (c) from 5.5 to 5.9 per cent. for a pension building up to an accrual rate of 1/60th; and 987 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 988 Government Changes) Government Changes) (2) the application of the scheme’s maximum pension limit of conducted inquiries into subjects as diverse as evidence- two-thirds of final salary to all scheme members for future based policy making, classification of illegal drugs, service. regulation of hybrid embryos and the work of the Amendment (a), at end add research councils. ‘and calls on the Leader of the House to bring forward further There is an argument for establishing an explicitly proposals which will cap the Exchequer contribution for 2009–10 cross-cutting Committee with its own Standing Order at its 2008–09 level.’ to examine such issues, and we are sympathetic to that idea, but at this stage in the Parliament, the new Committees Barbara Keeley: On the machinery of Government can be expected to run for only seven months from changes, the House will be aware that when changes are October, so we think it right for us to revert to the old made to the structure of Departments, a Government status quo, retaining the existing membership and motion is needed to make the necessary consequential chairmanship of the two Committees, but changing changes to the structure of departmental Select Committees. their titles and terms of reference. The motion therefore reflects the creation on 5 June of the new Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): which takes on the responsibilities of the former Like the hon. Member for Bolton, South-East (Dr. Iddon), Departments for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory I am a former member of the Science and Technology Reform and for Innovation, Universities and Skills. Committee and a member of the current Innovation, Shortly after the new Department was created, the Universities, Science and Skills Committee. I welcome Select Committee on Innovation, Universities, Science what the Minister said, particularly her interpretation and Skills published a report recommending the that it should be possible for the Committee to consider re-establishment of a Select Committee on Science and cross-cutting how science is dealt with across Government Technology. That reflected the final recommendation of Departments. As she said, the focus on evidence-based the former Science and Technology Committee, which policy making means that there is a role to play in was abolished in 2007, when the Department for Innovation, scrutinising the Government carefully in respect of their Universities and Skills was created. treatment of evidence at large across Departments. My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the That is one of the reasons why I welcome this motion House received a letter in support of the proposal from today. the chief executives of the Royal Society of Chemistry, the Institute of Physics, the Institute of Biology and the Barbara Keeley: That is another well-made point. Royal Academy of Engineering and from the executive secretary of the Royal Society. I am pleased to say that The Government will, of course, be happy to reconsider the Government accept the Committee’s recommendation. the position in the next Parliament if the Committee’s The motion provides for the re-establishment of a Science experience suggests that any change is needed. and Technology Committee as part of the family of departmental Select Committees and it has a remit to Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): As Chair of examine the expenditure, administration and policy of the soon-to-be Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, the Government Office for Science. may I say how much we welcome the pragmatic approach adopted by the Government on this issue? I promise my Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): I am Committee’s wholehearted and pragmatic support for grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way so early in her the arrangements that the hon. Lady has outlined to the speech and to the Government for having listened to the House this afternoon. learned societies’ call to re-establish the Science and Technology Committee. It is being re-established today, Barbara Keeley: I thank the hon. Gentleman. however, as a departmental Select Committee, whereas The second motion concerns pensions. Public service it was a free-standing Committee before, with cross-cutting pension schemes must be affordable and sustainable in oversight of all Departments, including outside agencies. the long term. The cost of the parliamentary pension Will my hon. Friend confirm that, despite the Committee scheme has risen, mainly because of increased longevity. being set up today as a departmental Select Committee, Today we are considering changes to the scheme that it will still have the remit of the former Science and will limit the impact of that increase on the taxpayer. Technology Committee? Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab): I entirely accept Barbara Keeley: I shall address in due course the that the costs of the scheme should rise to reflect good point that my hon. Friend has just made. increased longevity. However, will the Minister explain The motion and the steps to be taken reflect the the gearing effect of the three different regimes, which position between 1992 and 2007, when the Science and are based on accrual rates of one fortieth, one fiftieth Technology Committee was appointed to examine the and one sixtieth of final salary respectively? A Member work of the Office of Science and Technology, part of would have to live for 3.54 years, 3.95 years and the old Department for Trade and Industry. The role of 4.76 years beyond retirement age to achieve the annual the Government Office for Science is somewhat narrower amount put in by the 5.9 per cent., 7.9 per cent. and than that of the old Office of Science and Technology. 11.9 per cent. pensions respectively, given what their Although the interpretation of the Committee’s terms funds should have created in the meantime. of reference is a matter for the Committee itself, the Government hope that it will take a wide-ranging approach Barbara Keeley: My hon. Friend will not be surprised to its remit, examining the full scope of science policy to learn that I cannot answer that off the top of my and related matters across the Government. That approach head. However, I will ensure that an answer to that certainly worked well for the old Committee, which specific question will reach him. 989 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 990 Government Changes) Government Changes) Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): As the The Government Actuary published his valuation of Minister will know, the issue of increasing pension costs the scheme in March 2009, and he advised that the because of longevity also applies to the police pension Exchequer contribution would need to increase from scheme. Why in the case of the police pension scheme 26.8 per cent. to 31.6 per cent. of payroll if no other will the whole cost of longevity be borne by the taxpayer action was taken. As I mentioned, that is primarily rather than by the contributions of the police themselves? because members of the scheme are living longer and pensions are therefore payable for longer. On 31 March Barbara Keeley: If the hon. Gentleman waits for the this year, my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader rest of what I am going to say, he will see that issues of the House announced in a written statement that the need to be resolved and discussed, and that a wider Exchequer contribution would be capped at 28.7 per debate needs to be had. This short debate is probably cent. of payroll. That was in line with the recommendation not the time for that. I am happy to take interventions, of the Senior Salaries Review Body, as already endorsed Mr. Deputy Speaker, but people will have time to make by the House. My right hon. and learned Friend proposed speeches this afternoon. a set of changes that would make the necessary savings of 2.9 per cent. of payroll, and proposed that those be Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): No doubt backdated to 1 April 2009. my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) will pursue the matter of the police pension. I had The changes consist, first, of an increase in member correspondence with the Minister’s predecessor, the contribution rates, which will yield a saving of 1.7 per hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). She has cent. of payroll. Secondly, the scheme’s maximum pension replied on his behalf, confirming that the Treasury, as limit of two thirds of final salary is to be applied to all the employer of Members of Parliament, took a scheme members in future. That change will yield savings contribution holiday of 14 years from the parliamentary of 1.2 per cent. of payroll. The increase in member contributory pension scheme. The Minister confirmed contribution rates will mean that scheme members will that to me, but she did not say how much the taxpayer have a choice of paying 11.9 per cent. of salary for an and the Treasury were saved as a result. How much has accrual rate of one fortieth; 7.9 per cent. for an accrual that holiday affected the deficit that the pension fund rate of one fiftieth; or 5.9 per cent. for the new accrual has recently faced? rate of one sixtieth, which is coming in shortly. All those are laid out in the motion. Barbara Keeley: We can look at that issue in the wider The other proposed change will mean that, from 1 debate as we go forward. However, as I have to keep April 2009, no member of the scheme will be able to emphasising, the key thing is not to go back in time. We build up further benefits in excess of the two-thirds are where we are in terms of the pension scheme. The limit. Only a small number of scheme members can real factor is that its cost is escalating because of longevity. currently do so. It is important to make the point that, There were both Labour and Conservative Governments on average, an MP in the House serves just over 12 years. between 1989 and 2003. The question was not about a The motion therefore brings forward the interim measures pensions holiday, but about reducing the Exchequer necessary to cap the Exchequer contribution immediately, contribution when there was a surplus. That situation in line with the January 2008 resolution of the House. does not pertain now. The key thing is for us to focus on the feelings of the public about their funding of our Sir Nicholas Winterton: The Minister has just mentioned scheme. That is what I am really talking about today. a matter that has an impact on me, so I declare that Barry Gardiner rose— interest. Will it be worth while for an MP over the age of 65, Sir John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West) (Con) rose— who has reached the maximum two thirds of final salary, to continue to contribute to the scheme, or will Barbara Keeley: I am not going to take any more they in fact be making a contribution for no return? If interventions at the moment. My speech is short, but it there are to be limited returns, what will they be? is important that I get through it. We have until 5 o’clock, and I really must make progress. Barbara Keeley: The point is to set a limit so that Sir Nicholas Winterton: My hon. Friend the Member people in that situation will not be able to accrue for Bournemouth, West (Sir John Butterfill) is chair of further benefits. The vast bulk of members of the the trustees of the parliamentary contributory pension scheme are those who have entered the House newly or fund. in the past couple of Parliaments. The average service of an MP is just over 12 years, so as I have said, only a Barbara Keeley: Indeed; there are Members with small number of members of the scheme are in that great expertise in the Chamber, and I am sure that they situation. [Interruption.] I can get the hon. Gentleman will make their contributions. However, it is important a detailed answer to his question, but we are getting into that I lay out the position. a lot of detail, whereas I am laying out general principles. The changes proposed in the motion before the House As I have said, the motion brings forward the interim will cap the Exchequer contribution in line with the measures necessary to cap the Exchequer contribution resolution of the House in January 2008. On 24 January immediately, in line with the January 2008 resolution of 2008, the House endorsed the recommendation of the the House. Senior Salaries Review Body that the cost to the Exchequer I believe that the amendment in the names of the of the accrual of benefits should be limited to 20 per hon. Member for Northavon (Steve Webb), my right cent. of payroll. That figure excludes payments to pay hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) off the deficit identified in the 2005 valuation of the and the hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) fund; the two elements have been treated separately. supports the changes to the scheme put forward in the 991 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 992 Government Changes) Government Changes) motion tabled by the Leader of the House. However, it Minister did not have the power to change his top team calls on her to bring forward further proposals to cap as he wished, he had to satisfy a clash of ministerial the Exchequer contribution for this year at its 2008-09 egos by carving up a Department completely on the level. Achieving a freeze in the Exchequer contribution hoof—so much so that some civil servants returned to at 2008-09 rates could involve a further increase in their desks after lunch to find that their Department member contribution rates, an increase in pension age, had been abolished in the meantime. As I am afraid is some combination of the two, or other measures. There often the case in reshuffles, no serious thought was are a great number of possibilities that we could consider. given to the implications for hugely important areas of Clearly, further analysis will be needed on the various policy on the back of the reshuffle that was suddenly options that would avoid an increase in the Exchequer conducted. contribution. In this case, I think we all accept that the biggest We expect there to be more wide-ranging reform in loser, apart from some individuals, was science. When the future. On 13 February this year, my right hon. the Prime Minister took up his post in July 2007, he Friend the Prime Minister commissioned the Senior broke up the Department for Trade and Industry and Salaries Review Body to conduct a fundamental review shoved science into the Department for Innovation, of pension provision for MPs, Ministers and other Universities and Skills. As a result, the Science and parliamentary office holders. I know that some of the Technology Committee was abolished and subsumed right hon. and hon. Members who are in their places into the wider Committee on that Department, despite are starting to engage with that review. The Prime the serious protestations and concerns of the science Minister asked for it to consider the full range of community. options for reducing the Exchequer contribution. Those In the Prime Minister’s latest Cabinet reshuffle, science options included, but were not restricted to, increases in became a bit of a plaything of the noble Lord Mandelson, the pension age, increases in members’ contributions, and was seen right from the start as being just one part changes in the accrual rate and a consideration of the of an over-inflated and largely unaccountable department. overall merits of defined contribution or money purchase The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills arrangements. We are considering the Government’s has 12 Ministers in all, half of whom—including the evidence to the review, and we will make an announcement supposed science Minister—are not in this House. The in due course. latest report of the Select Committee on Innovation, Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): Will the Minister Universities, Science and Skills made it clear that because indicate whether she proposes to accept the amendment the Committee’s remit was stretched so wide, it had tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Northavon struggled to give Government science policy the level of (Steve Webb)? scrutiny that it deserved. The new DBIS Committee, being even larger, would have been totally unable to Barbara Keeley: Members are running just ahead of handle the scale of the issues at hand, as it will already where I am in my comments, and I will come to that in a have to deal with the Royal Mail and EU regulation, moment. I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. along with universities and measures to stimulate I have outlined the changes necessary to limit the manufacturing. impact on the taxpayer of increases in the cost of the There are two reasons why it is particularly important parliamentary pension scheme. The interim measures in at this time to scrutinise the Government’s spending the motion will enact the earlier decisions made by the and activity on science and technology. First, as the House to cap the Exchequer contribution. The Government Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Committee were already considering further measures to avoid an said, there is a widespread view that British technology increase in Exchequer contributions from the pre-April and its research and innovation can help us climb out of 2009 level. The amendment is consistent with that further this recession. The weakness of the pound is providing consideration. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the a much needed boost for manufacturing opportunities. House is therefore content to return with further proposals Although a weak pound is not good for everyone, the to ensure that the Exchequer’s contribution this year Government should be encouraging manufacturers to does not exceed that of last year. Because all these seize the initiative by investing in research and development. measures affect the current year, and because there are Secondly, science will be central to Britain’s ability to many detailed questions to answer, I am sure that it will respond to the major challenges of the future, from assist Members to know the extent of their contributions climate change to tackling swine flu or any other form to the scheme when we return to the debate. We will do of pandemic flu. that as soon as possible, and we will present all the The creation of a new Select Committee on Science various options that could make the freeze happen. and Technology is therefore an important step in holding the Government to account and ensuring that science 2.24 pm policy is not merely a departmental addendum. Indeed, Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) the Deputy Leader of the House for giving the has been ardent in his campaigning for such a Committee. Government’s position on these two motions. As she We welcome the decision and hope that the Committee said, we are discussing the establishment of a dedicated will go about its work with all the energy and enthusiasm Select Committee on science and some changes to the that this area of activity merits. parliamentary pension scheme, to which an amendment Let me turn to pensions. The question of pensions has been tabled, primarily by the Liberal Democrats. generally is one of the most potent areas of public The changes to the machinery of government in the debate. Ten years ago we had some of the best pensions last reshuffle were, I fear, made in a hurry, and in many in the world; now we have some of the worst. The public respects for all the worst reasons. Because the Prime sector seems to do far better than the private sector. In 993 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 994 Government Changes) Government Changes) [Alan Duncan] more than it is the value of the fund. At a time when the Government intend to raise the state pension age, it the private sector, which used to have many amply looks odd that they have not considered, as their first funded final salary schemes, the vast majority of schemes, priority, raising the age at which former members can if they have not closed already, are heading towards the benefit from the pay-out. closure that their funding now requires. In the middle of all that and all the difficulties that we have faced over Barbara Keeley: The key point is that all those things the past few weeks, this House looks as though it has were looked at, but two points pertain to today’s debate. one of the most protected and generous schemes, compared One is that we needed a simple interim measure to cap with anybody else. We have the trustee of the scheme on the Exchequer contribution, and that is what we have in our Benches this afternoon, my hon. Friend the Member today’s motion. The Government have to enact the for Bournemouth, West (Sir John Butterfill), who will decision made earlier by the House. The second and go into the details more than me. most important point is that there was already a review—the Prime Minister asked the Senior Salaries Review Body Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): The hon. for a review in February—so in some ways we are Gentleman has put his finger on it: our pension scheme moving ahead on things ourselves, even though there is looks as though it is one of the most generous, but when parallel action outside this place. I can tell the hon. we look into it, we see that it is no more generous than Gentleman that a great deal of work has been done, and many other public sector schemes. If I was to retire at that it will be possible to present a spread of options for 60, I would receive no more money from the parliamentary hon. Members to review. We are aware that the SSRB is scheme than I would have received from my other also undertaking its own review and taking evidence pension scheme, as a classroom teacher. We do ourselves from hon. Members, and we would not wish to prejudge a disservice by making it appear as though we have a any recommendations that it might make. very good, copper-bottomed pension scheme. It is a good scheme, but it is no better than many others in the Alan Duncan: Despite what the Deputy Leader of the public sector. House says, she should, in all honesty, admit that the Government have been rather clumsy about this. If he Alan Duncan: The House will have heard what the catches your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, the chairman hon. Gentleman has said. There are many arguments of the trustees, my hon. Friend the Member for surrounding the scheme, many of which are difficult to Bournemouth, West will be able to explain this in detail, put in the current climate of public opinion. By and but I am not confident that we have been consulted in large, the scheme would have been totally self-funding, the depth that the issue merits. So, something that was had the Government not taken such a long contributions sprung on us by the Government has rather backfired, holiday. The Minister has today made the point that the leading to their having to face the full wrath of the tenure of Members, unlike others in the public sector, is newspapers last night, and seeing what they were planning quite short, at only 10 or 11 years. Indeed, the final to write the next day—that is, today—forced them to salary is exactly the same in one’s 30th year in this place change their mind about their attitude to this issue. as it is on the day one is first elected. In that sense, there So it is that the amendment tabled by the hon. is no progression through the ranks of seniority, which Members for Northavon (Steve Webb) and for Twickenham would otherwise dramatically add to the pay-out made. (Dr. Cable) and the right hon. Member for Birkenhead All those arguments are understood, but we have to (Mr. Field) appears to have been accepted by the accept that we are living at a time when, given the Government, and taxpayers are not now going to face a position in the public sector and the private sector, our demand for much greater contributions. With the pension scheme sticks out like a sore thumb. The policy amendment having been accepted by the Government, I of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition is sense that the whole House is likely to agree to proceed to wind up the scheme for new entrants. In the mean on that basis. Nevertheless, I very much hope that time, however, we have to look at its funding, its benefits the Government will be less clumsy on this issue in and its terms and conditions, to which end the Government the future. have tabled their motion today. One element will be welcomed by the public, which is 2.36 pm that we are going to contribute more out of our pay packets. However, there is another, unfortunate aspect, Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I shall which is that we are in the middle of a number of deal first with the points about the machinery of changing forces, which would have made it better for government. The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton the Government not to have tabled anything at all just (Alan Duncan) has echoed things that I have said in the at the moment. The trustees are looking at the scheme past about the way in which the Government changes in detail, as is the Senior Salaries Review Body. In the departmental nomenclature and reorganises desks and middle of all that, the Government have tabled today’s offices apparently on a whim, without any thought for motion, but at the same time, they are asking the the consequences of those moves. It worries me that we Exchequer to contribute more. That is what people find so regularly see changes to the structure of Government difficult. Departments that appear to be based mainly on the The Government could have looked at alternatives. desire for titles for those in the Cabinet, rather than on a The main reason, above all others, why the actuaries genuine cost-benefit analysis of how they will make the looked at the arithmetic and decided that the fund Government run better. needs more money is that former members—and, as the The reason for the changes that we are debating predictions of the actuaries go, existing and future today is that that which was cast asunder has now been members—are living longer. The issue is longevity much reunited, all in order to add to the splendour of the 995 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 996 Government Changes) Government Changes) titles of the—what is called now?—the First Secretary I hope that it will be very clearly understood in of State. I think that that is now the principal title of the Government that the Science and Technology Committee noble Lord Mandelson of Foy and Hartlepool, or has a roving brief, that it must be able to follow its nose wherever it was— in deciding what is appropriate for it to look at and that it must be able to define its own role. If it does so, it will Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): The supreme be able to perform the very useful tasks that it has done pontiff. previously and we should wholly welcome that. In moving on to deal with pensions, let me say Mr. Heath: I am not sure whether the noble Lord immediately that for me to talk about that subject in the Mandelson builds many bridges, but we shall see. presence of my hon. Friend the Member for Northavon I do not think that this is the right way of doing (Steve Webb) or the hon. Member for Bournemouth, business. I hope that we will eventually reach a point at West (Sir John Butterfill) is nonsense; I have nothing which, if a Prime Minister wishes to change the structure like their expertise and I will not pretend to have it. My of government, he will argue the case properly by hon. Friend the Member for Northavon will therefore putting a paper before the House and allowing Select explain the consequences of his amendment himself. Committees to consider the consequences, before then I was a little surprised to read in some of this morning’s proceeding on a basis of knowledge and understanding newspapers that the initiative to amend the pensions of the properly projected advantages and disadvantages, motion came from the right hon. Member for Witney rather than on the rather haphazard basis that we have (Mr. Cameron). When I looked at the amendment, I at the moment. could not see his name. I could see the names of my Having said all that, these changes have been made hon. Friends the Members for Northavon and for and we need to respond to them in regard to the way in Twickenham, the right hon. Member for Birkenhead which we organise the Committees of the House. As the (Mr. Field) and my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, Minister knows, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris), but not the name of and Knaresborough (Mr. Willis), the hon. Member for the right hon. Member for Witney, so I wondered how Bolton, South-East (Dr. Iddon) and I have been discussing he could have been responsible for the Government’s the consequences of the changes for the Science and change of heart—[Interruption.] Perhaps the hon. Member Technology Committee. I cannot for the life of me for Rutland and Melton can explain. understand why the Leader of the House did not Alan Duncan: Since I have been invited to explain, immediately see the strength of the argument and just perhaps I could put it down to the unique influence in accept what was a perfectly proper request, particularly this House of both the Leader of the Opposition and as it was backed up—as the hon. Member for Bolton, myself. South-East said—by the learned societies, which know a thing or two about these matters. Mr. Heath: Unique and almost invisible! That is The Science and Technology Committee, before it something on which we all congratulate the hon. was renamed, was an ornament to the House. It was a Gentleman. Let us set that aside, however, and simply very valuable body. I served on it for three years in what say that the strength of the argument that my hon. I like to think of as its golden age. It was a wonderful Friend the Member for Northavon is about to adduce is Committee, precisely because it did not have to spend so strong that it is unanswerable, so the Government all its time looking at the activities of a particular will accept the amendment. Department and because it could range so widely over On a serious note, it is almost unbelievable to reflect the scientific and technological aspects of the way in how adept this House is at producing public relations which the Government operate and pick out the areas disasters. To be asking for yet more taxpayers’ money to in which it had particular expertise, or draw on such support the MPs’ pension scheme at the precise moment expertise, in order to inform the House and the Government. when there is so much criticism of what we do is quite That is why the terms of reference are so important. I extraordinary.That is why the amendment is so important. am pleased that the Deputy Leader of the House expanded Is there a deficit? I understand that deficits are reported on the Committee’s role in her own words as it is not by actuaries, but I have no confidence in actuarial said on paper. I hope that some sort of Pepper v. Hart science. I suspect that exam papers for actuarial science procedure will be adopted in the House, so that there is are very similar to exam papers in economics; as it used no misunderstanding on the part of the Government as to be said, the questions are the same each year, it is just to the range of the Committee’s activities. the answers that change. Actuaries never seem to be In its previous manifestation, the Science and Technology consistent for more than one year, but there we are. Committee sometimes ran into difficulties. As the hon. Member for Bolton, South-East will remember, we Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I am sure received a very dusty response from the then Home that my hon. Friend shares my welcome for the Secretary when we were looking at aspects of the scientific Government’s acceptance of the amendment tabled by response to terrorism. He made it very clear that he did our hon. Friend the Member for Northavon (Steve not think that this was anything to do with the Science Webb). It is surely vital for the House to reduce the and Technology Committee and asked us please to costs to the taxpayer—both in the short term and, as poke our noses somewhere else rather than in his the Deputy Leader of the House pointed out, in the Department. He not only discouraged us from looking medium term, hopefully as a result of the Senior Salaries at what the Home Office was doing, but he actually put Review Board review—because it is simply unsustainable pressure on the Department for Transport to ensure for us as MPs continually to go back to the taxpayer that we did not know what that Department was asking for more money for our pensions. It is unsustainable doing either. in terms of MPs’ pensions and, ultimately, with so 997 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 998 Government Changes) Government Changes) [Jo Swinson] for other groups until it has tackled the issue for Members of Parliament? It is no good taking splinters out of many people living longer, that kind of action is will be other people’s eyes when we have planks sticking in unsustainable in terms of public sector pensions more our own. generally. Mr. Heath: I always thought that the biblical expression Mr. Heath: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If the was “mote”, but perhaps we no longer refer to motes in issue is longevity, as I suspect it is, some of our constituents the House. However, my hon. Friend is right. will have an easy answer to the longevity of MPs— Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): Off with their Mr. Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): I have heads. listened carefully to the debate, which seems to be ranging into parliamentary pensions under review by Mr. Heath: My hon. Friend reads my mind perfectly. the Senior Salaries Review Body. Should Members of Longevity is something we have to live with—[Interruption.] Parliament accept that review in totality before it reports? I am sorry. The view of the general public, rightly or wrongly, is that pension schemes are uniquely helpful to Alan Duncan: It is part of a fragmented process. Members of Parliament. We must take account of public opinion in that respect. Mr. Heath: I note the comments of the hon. Member We must take careful cognisance of a further reason: for Rutland and Melton from a sedentary position, and there is a problem with all public sector pensions. Unless he is right. We have not given a sufficiently clear brief as we in the House can clearly demonstrate that we are to what exactly we expect to emerge from the process. I taking a lead, we will not be able to introduce the seriously hope that when we ask external bodies to look necessary reforms to public sector pension schemes. at these matters, we accept the results of what they say. Public sector pensions are not constructed in the same However, we also have to be aware of the context in way as private sector pensions now are. There is an which we work and, as I have suggested, set an example unsustainable difference, and unless we are prepared to of how we expect pension schemes in the rest of the take difficult decisions, we will not be able to square public sector to evolve. I would have some difficulty if that circle. We will not persuade a single person working the two were incompatible. That is my honest response. in the public sector that there is a necessity to reform However, my argument has always been that when we pension schemes if we are unable to reform our own. ask independent bodies for their advice, generally we should accept it unless there are strong reasons not to Mr. Chope: I agree wholeheartedly that the consequences do so. of longevity should be borne by the members of a scheme. Is Liberal Democrat policy therefore that the As I said, I am no expert on pensions. It is important consequences of longevity should be borne, for example, that we hear from those who are experts. They can ask in the police force scheme, by the policemen themselves, all the difficult questions, such as those that the hon. rather than by the taxpayer? Member for Brent, North (Barry Gardiner) put to the Deputy Leader of the House. I have great sympathy Mr. Heath: There are real problems with the police with her; a glazed look came over her eyes as she was scheme. As the hon. Gentleman might recall, I used to asked those complicated questions, to which I certainly be chairman of the Avon and Somerset police authority. would not know the answer. On the basis that the One of our recurrent problems in balancing our budget Government are going to accept the amendment, I each year was the difficulty of paying for the police hope that we can agree to the motions. I also strongly pension scheme. Many things are not clearly understood welcome the fact that the Government have accepted, about the police pension scheme, not least the contribution albeit with a slight time delay, our arguments on the made by police officers, but the difficulty has never been Science and Technology Committee. resolved. The same applies to the pensions of chief fire officers, 2.51 pm for instance. When I was leader of Somerset county council, I worked out that the council was sustaining in Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): I want to work or pension 10 chief fire officers, who tend to retire elaborate on my intervention on the hon. Member for early and who had schemes that cost a lot of money. I Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan). However, I start do not resent public sector workers having adequate by saying that I welcome the Government’s new-found pensions, but we must accept that there will be increasing heart on the Science and Technology Committee. I wish difficulties in paying for some of those pension that every success and hope that we can call it the “Ian arrangements out of the public purse. We must be Gibson Memorial Committee”, although that might be honest about that, as we must be honest about all our too controversial at the moment. difficulties with the national Exchequer and the deficits We do ourselves a great disservice. A canard has been that we are building up. We must work out how to do so allowed to spread, deliberately and maliciously, that we with respect for the individuals concerned, understanding have an all-singing, all-dancing, most wonderful pension the circumstances of those who work in the public scheme that cannot be improved on, and that we must sector while recognising that the current position is feel really guilty about anything to do with it and must increasingly unsustainable. never argue back that it is a high-contribution scheme, which has evolved over time and takes account of many Andrew Stunell: I have listened with care to my hon. of the frailties of people who serve in the House. It has Friend’s wise words. Does he agree that it is impossible to be looked at from the position that many do not do for the House to change public sector pension arrangements well out of the parliamentary scheme. 999 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 1000 Government Changes) Government Changes) My starting point is that although the average time of The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas service is 12 and a bit years, which some of us have just Winterton)—I might call him my hon. Friend in this about reached, many hon. Members do not serve anything context—made a useful observation. We are in our like that time. Many people come into politics, particularly present mess because, as has happened with so many parliamentary politics, who have made enormous sacrifices other pensions, we allowed an undue holiday to arise, in their lives. They do not have other pensions to fall with the result that the pot is far less full than it should back on. I know from personal experience, having talked be. Let me reinforce the hon. Gentleman’s point by to people who retired at the last election, that the saying to the Minister that it would be good to see the pension on which they were relying from this place was figures. If nothing else, that would enable us to hold our effectively the only decent pension they got, but of heads a little higher and to say, “Yes, this is the additional course it was only for the time that they served here. Treasury support for which we have asked—after all, Steve Webb (Northavon) (LD): The hon. Gentleman the Treasury is our employer whether we like it or is my constituency neighbour and nobody would accuse not—but the Treasury gained throughout the period him of being greedy or grasping, and his conduct during which there was either no contribution or no repeatedly shows that he is not that kind of person. additional contribution, as there should have been, Therefore, I am slightly puzzled by his argument. He because of the holiday.” seems to be saying that for people with a poor pension Notwithstanding what has been said about the so-called record who come into Parliament, the parliamentary £5 billion raid, I have always been adamant in my belief scheme should make up for lost time. That would apply that one of the two greatest problems in the public to people who have had nothing before and those who sector is the pension holiday. That is certainly true in have very generous provision, because the same rules much of the private sector, but anyone who considers apply to all of us. Surely he is not saying that our some of the ways in which local authorities have scheme should make up for the mess of the rest of our manipulated pension funds over the years will see what pension rights, whether we have them or not. I mean. The other great problem is the mania for early retirement. In the Equality Bill Committee on Tuesday, Mr. Drew: No, I am not saying that. I would have I argued against what is lovingly described as “the voted for the amendment because it is right and proper national default retirement age”, which I used to call in these times of austerity that we in this place make “65”, because I consider it to be a form of discrimination. sacrifices, and I am pleased that the Government saw As I said then, one of the things on which we ought to the rightful nature of the amendment and accepted it. pride ourselves—I will cast no aspersions—is the fact My point is that we need to argue the case that that no such discrimination exists in the House of parliamentary pensions are not the golden goose that Commons. Many Members remain here until they are some people pretend they are, and I look forward to well past 65 and there is no pressure for them to go any hearing from the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West earlier, other than what the electorate might do to them. (Sir John Butterfill), who knows the true situation much The early retirement mania has never affected this place better than probably anyone else in the House and I do. in terms of its representation. Unless we make that point, we shall for ever be written about as though the pension were one of the Barbara Keeley: I have some information that may perks that go with the job—one of the elements that help my hon. Friend and others who have referred to make us more equal than most. As we heard from the the pension holiday, as the reduction in Exchequer hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope), many contributions has been described. This year’s increase is other people in the public sector receive better pensions entirely due to higher costs caused by the longevity to than we do, and that may be a good thing. The hon. which Members have referred. It is possible that the Member for Northavon (Steve Webb) shakes his head. years of reduced Exchequer contributions led to increased He ought to talk to some chief police officers and chief contributions in 2003 and 2006, but it remains the case fire officers. If they were honest, they would say that that the Government do not pursue a policy of overfunding their pensions were far better than ours. They have during a period of surplus. Whatever Members may security, which is the one thing that we never have in think about actuarial science, the Government have to this place. Given the way in which things are going, follow the guidance of the Government Actuary. some Members may have even less security than they Mr. Drew: I hear what my hon. Friend says, but I thought they had. We need to introduce some balance. always thought it the epitome of madness that when Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): I sympathise more money was available, we imposed a cap, so that with much of what my hon. Friend is saying. He has when we were then in a time of difficulty, we never had mentioned balance. Surely public sector pensions—perhaps enough money because no surplus had been built up in including ours—have been in the firing line recently not the better times. I never saw the logic in that, but that is because they are particularly good, but because of the a piece of history. failure, weakness and diminution of pensions in the Sir Nicholas Winterton: The hon. Gentleman is making private sector. I have every sympathy for anyone who is an excellent and informative speech. Does he know currently suffering a threat to his or her occupational whether any inquiry or survey has been conducted into pension. Should not the Government, and indeed all of how much early retirement, particularly in local government us, seek ways in which to ensure that the private sector but also in other areas, may have cost pension funds, does not suffer as it seems likely to? because people have been able to retire from 50 onwards? Mr. Drew: My hon. Friend will not be surprised to I am not referring only to Sir Fred Goodwin and his hear that I entirely agree with him. Perhaps we should pension, and the £17 billion pension pot. Is it not true spend more time thinking about private pensions, rather that indulging in early retirement has been very costly than indulging in navel-gazing by discussing our own for pension funds, because people are drawing a pension pensions. very early and living to a ripe old age? 1001 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 1002 Government Changes) Government Changes) Mr. Drew: I am beginning to think that we are a The House appears to be relatively unanimous about double act—but of course we are not. Some years ago I the motion, but behind it is a much larger debate about put a number of parliamentary questions to the Treasury whether we should continue with a defined benefit because I wanted an estimate of those figures, to which contribution scheme, like most of the public sector. the answer was, sadly, “We cannot, and we won’t.” I Does my hon. Friend think that that is something that think that does us all a great disservice, because I we should protect? believe this issue should be debated. I argue strongly with my colleagues in the public sector that they have a Mr. Drew: My hon. Friend always asks me easy duty in respect of their retirement age. If I were still a questions. It is worth fighting for a defined benefit teacher, I would be retiring in a couple of years’ time, scheme, because that is the gold standard that has been but I think I would be fairly useful as a classroom created over a long period of time. However, I accept teacher beyond that age. Thankfully, many teachers that we cannot have the public sector doing one thing carry on working beyond that age, but there is still a and the private sector doing something else entirely. belief that 60 is the retirement age—that that is the age That is hypocritical and unfair, and we have to have the at which people should go, come what may. I shall park debate. However, in the public sector, the debate would that point now, but I feel strongly about it. be much more reasonable if people accepted that 65 was the normal retirement age. In that case, they would I want to make two further points. We talk about make contributions up to that age, which would deal longevity being the cause of the problem. I cannot with many of the problems arising from unfair demands prove this, but I have been told by more than one on the fund. Minister that one reason why the parliamentary scheme was always so robust was that until comparatively recently, Kelvin Hopkins: My hon. Friend has drawn a contrast being an MP was not the best line of work to be in for between the public and private sectors, and it is unfair having a long and deserving retirement. It may well be to the private sector. Does he agree that in the longer that we are becoming more like those in all other walks term we should look to a universal pension arrangement of life, and are beginning to have a quality of life after for employees, under which we all have defined benefit we leave this place, but it is important that we look at schemes with the heavy involvement of the state, as the reasons for the particular nature of any scheme and necessary? argue the case for its special qualities and characteristics. Let me turn to my second point. The Labour party Mr. Drew: Yes, and we have to make the argument has a benevolent fund, because until comparatively that people will have to make reasonable contributions. recently many people retired from this House in a very We are supposed to take the lead on this, but we have let poor state. We rightly continue to support those people, people down by allowing them to believe that their as those of us who are much better off with a much contributions can remain the same even if they live higher standard of pension provision have an obligation longer and retire earlier. That does not add up, and it to support those who are not. Again, I want to put on has brought many funds crashing down. the record that, in contrast with the message that has I shall conclude my remarks on that gloomy note, but often been put across, it is not true that we have done I hope that the next time a journalist makes the throwaway much better over a long period than others in the public observation that MPs’ pensions are gold-plated, they sector, many of whom we represent. The parliamentary will also publish their own pension arrangements scheme has evolved over time. It is a good scheme now, and what they have managed to get out of the system. but it was not always so. Many people have suffered, They might discover that they are somewhat better off and we must learn the lessons from that. than MPs. This is not special pleading. I absolutely would have supported the amendment of the hon. Member for 3.8 pm Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath)—I was going to refer Sir John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West) (Con): In to him as “right hon.”, but that is only a matter of the debate so far, there has been a lot of conjecture and time—because I agree with him that we must give such of looking back to the past, and I wish to try to put it a lead. However, it annoys me—occasionally my blood into context. does boil—that whenever the BBC or Sky or the papers There was indeed a considerable period during which are talking about “greedy MPs”, they always have the the Treasury did not contribute the correct amount to throwaway line, “who have gold-plated pensions.” the parliamentary scheme. If one looks back to the We should at least put on the record that those previous valuation that was conducted by the Government pensions are not quite as good as some suggest. I have Actuary, one clearly sees that the deficit was approaching been fortunate because I have been able to conflate my £50 million, all of which was attributable to the Government teacher’s pension with the parliamentary scheme, which failing to pay the employer’s contribution, which is, of puts me in a better position. But as I said to the hon. course, funded by the taxpayer. That might or might Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan), we not have been a correct decision, but it did mean that have achieved the position that many schemes should be there was a deficit that had to be covered. The Government in—a claw-back, so if someone retires before 65, they suggested that it should be covered by increased are seriously penalised. Government payments over 15 years. That has been part of the problem in the perception Mr. Love: If we really want to get across the message of where we are going now. The Government’s contribution that our pensions are not as gold-plated as is often now looks unreasonably high, whereas a high proportion assumed, we are the last people who should make that of it is related to their failure to contribute in the past. case. We need someone independent, such as the SSRB, That is not just a criticism of the present Government; to make that case for us. it also applies to the previous Government. 1003 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 1004 Government Changes) Government Changes) Steve Webb: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right—I Those figures are available. Quite a few analyses have do not demur from what he has just said. However, can been performed over the past 30 or 40 years that make it he help me to understand something that is puzzling me clear what has been going on, despite all the huge ups about the motion? The combined contribution, including and downs in the markets. They show that schemes that the deficit contribution to which he refers, is 28.7 per have invested in shares have gone up by about 8 per cent., but the Government Actuary says that, per year, cent. per annum, while those that have invested in 8.5 per cent. is the cost of servicing the deficit—that is property have gone up by about 7 per cent. and those in the figure in the most recent review. So, 28.7 minus 8.5 is Government bonds have risen by about 6.5 per cent. 20.2. The Government are trying to cap at 20 per cent. That is what has happened over a 30 or 40-year Does he understand why the Government have made horizon. There have been wild variations within that, proposals that do not achieve the 20 per cent. cap but but the people who run pension schemes should fund bring it to 20.2 per cent.? I do not understand it, and for long-term liabilities. At the moment, people in both wonder whether he can explain it to me. the public and private sectors are paying the price for Sir John Butterfill: I think I do. May I come to that in tolerating wild valuations that are merely snapshots in due course? I shall try to be helpful to the hon. Gentleman, time and bear no relation to what is likely to happen and if he does not understand when I explain it then I over a long period. shall have to apologise to him at that time. The adverse effect of longevity means that schemes A very substantial Government contribution was must be adjusted for the increase in people’s lifetimes. necessary to bring a deficit back in line with where it That can achieved in only one logical way, and that is by should have been. It arose from the failure to contribute increasing retirement ages in line with the increase in the correct amount, as originally advised by the Government longevity so that people who live a long time fund the Actuary. The Government Actuary, to be fair to the cost of receiving their pension provision over a longer Government, said, “Well, things are going rather well. time than was originally anticipated. They will have to The stock market is looking pretty good, so you can wait a little longer before they draw their pensions and probably tolerate not paying in.” That is one of the if they choose, for whatever reason, to take their pensions problems with the way in which pensions have been early they will suffer a diminution in what they get. funded in the past, and I want to expand on that point a Obviously, people who are seriously ill can take sickness little further, if I may. retirement, which can be covered through insurance. If, at the previous valuation, the Government had That is how schemes should be structured. Our scheme been making the correct contributions, the Members’ is not so structured, however, and neither are most scheme would have been about £5 million in surplus private sector schemes. rather than nearly £50 million in deficit. That, I think, is Last year, the Government said that costs were rising worth bearing in mind as background. Today, the and might rise still further. Without taking into account Government Actuary is saying, “Now we have to take what they were having to pay to make up the deficits into account longevity. We have reviewed the problems that had been allowed to accrue, they sought to cap the of longevity and we have found that we probably have Government contribution at 20 per cent. The House not made enough allowance for the improvement in debated that proposal, and accepted that there would people’s lives over many years. We need to adjust for the have to be some capping of the Government contribution fact that people are likely to live longer.” The impact of to protect the taxpayer. We then had to look at what we that is to reverse the situation. We now need to raise, might do thereafter. probably, another £50 million or thereabouts. There will have to be increased contributions to cover that element. More than a year ago the Government said that they That problem would not be there if we had dealt with would instruct the Senior Salaries Review Body to look it earlier. at the issue, and to make recommendations to the Government and the House about how the scheme My view is that the present system of valuing pensions, might be amended for the future. If they had issued that whether in the public sector or the private sector, is instruction, we might have had the SSRB report before stark raving bonkers. We ask actuaries, every three us today, as we debate what is almost a crisis adjustment. years, to value each scheme and to try to see where the Sadly, for reasons that I can only begin to guess at, the pitfalls or benefits might lie. When times are really good Government did not in fact instruct the SSRB until and stock markets are going up, they say that we should earlier this year. not bother to put any money in because we will come through with a surplus. When times get bad, they say, The Government’s proposal before the House today “Gosh, you’ve got to put a shedload of money in. has an air of crisis about it, in that it says that, if Times are terrible, and you have to put more money in.” something is not done, they will go over the 20 per cent. That is at a time when most schemes—certainly those in limit, backdated to 1 April. The amendment takes a the private sector—have not got any money, because further step backwards, and adopts the approach that times are bad. we would have had were we looking at the matter a year That has to be a crazy way of dealing with final ago. It will not solve the problem that I have identified, salary pension schemes. It seems to me that the actuarial for which the Government will have to come up with profession should, over many years, have been taking a something after the end of the debate today. long-term view. Pensions do not go from year to year—they One other element to which I should refer is the cover 30 or 40 years at a time. We should therefore proposed removal of the rights of hon. Members who establish what the appropriate contribution should be have been here since before 1989 and who have reached from the scheme sponsor—and, indeed, from the scheme the limit of their contributions under our scheme to members if they also contribute, as we do—over a continue making pension contributions after they have period of 30 years or more. reached the age of 65. That will have an impact, which 1005 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 1006 Government Changes) Government Changes) [Sir John Butterfill] through complex shenanigans to change this or that contribution. Changing the retirement age would be a relates to what the hon. Member for Northavon (Steve very simple solution. Webb) said, in that it will produce an additional 1.2 per There is a significant read-on to other defined benefit cent. of savings. schemes, whether in the private or public sector. The The trustees have considered that point, as we have public have to understand that increased longevity means considered many other proposals—largely produced by that more will have to be paid into pension schemes. us—to reduce the cost of the scheme. It was at the There might be an argument about who pays but, initiative of the trustees that the right to retire before 65 inevitably, that is what must happen. However, the same without penalty was removed. We have also considerably effect could be achieved by raising the date of retirement. tightened the rules on early retirement for ill health. We Let me say a few other things about the scheme think that in the past there may have been some abuses, because all sorts of aspects of its nature are misunderstood which were expensive, although nothing like the abuses by not only the general public, but even apparently in some other areas of the public sector. Nevertheless, well-informed members of the actuarial profession. Most the change will produce significant savings. We are still members of the public think that ordinary Back Benchers waiting for the Government to implement it and we are retire on the basis of the Back-Bench salary, but they slightly surprised that it was not included in the motion. also think that Ministers and other office holders in the There is no question but that the trustees would try to House will enjoy a pension based on their increased obstruct reasonable changes. I appreciate that my hon. salaries. They think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas will retire on a pension that is two thirds of his salary as Winterton) is not entirely happy with the situation, but Chancellor, but that is totally untrue. The Chancellor’s it must be remembered that Members who wish to pension will be the same as that of the humblest Member, contribute further sums towards their retirement except that the additional 10 per cent. contributions have other avenues for doing so, albeit on a money that he pays while he is a Minister will be reflected in a purchase basis. modest supplement to the pension. Sir Nicholas Winterton: Will my hon. Friend be able The only exceptions to that arrangement have been to indicate during the debate whether it would be Prime Ministers, Lord Chancellors and the Speaker, appropriate for somebody such as me, and other Members although I gather that some of them have said that they who are over 65 and have reached the full two thirds of will not take the extra money. That is an honourable pension, to discontinue from 1 April further contributions position, but individuals must make up their own minds. to the parliamentary contributory pension scheme? Would The public assume that our scheme is the same as every we lose benefits if we discontinued our payments to the other and that as we rise up the ladder and reach more scheme? Can my hon. Friend help me on that point? senior positions, we get a bigger pension, but we do not. Clearly, we have to give the Department of Resources That point needs to be clearly made because it addresses instructions as to whether to continue paying contributions the biggest misunderstanding about the parliamentary to the pension fund. scheme. That is not to say, however, that our scheme is not better than that of many of our constituents, but it Sir John Butterfill: It is my understanding that Members is not quite as gold-plated as the media have led the affected by the change would not be able to continue public to believe, so it is important to get that on record. making contributions, but their rights under the scheme It is also important to put it on record that the level will continue to be safeguarded. The only change for my of the contributions made by Members—10 per cent. hon. Friend would be that if he wished to continue with the 1/40th scheme for which most hon. Members saving for his retirement, he would be unable to do it opt—is almost unprecedented. I think that only the through the parliamentary scheme but there would be police pay more, but their payments reflect the fact that opportunities for him to do so elsewhere without losing they can retire at least 10 years earlier than we can. his rights as a member of the scheme. The saving is about 1.2 per cent. The object of the Sir Nicholas Winterton: After 30 years. changes proposed by the Government is to save rather more than that. The figures go from 10 to 11.9 per cent. Sir John Butterfill: My hon. Friend is right. for those on 1/40th of final salary, from 6 to 7.9 per We face the problem that the Government have made cent. for those on 1/50th and from 5.5 to 5.9 per cent. a proposal that is neither fish nor fowl. It does not deal for those on 1/60th. That is all fairly transparent, and with the long-term problem nor correctly anticipate means that Members will be paying considerably more what might come out of the SSRB. The motion is a this year, because the change will be backdated to last stop-gap that probably need not have been tabled at all. April. On that basis, for those on the upper level scheme, The whole thing could have been left until we received the net cost would have been about £60 a month. If the the SSRB report. It is impossible to imagine that the Government accept the Liberal Democrat proposal or House will not accept the SSRB’s recommendations something similar, the amount could double and the about our future pay, so I would have preferred us to cost would be about £120 a month to Members. have made the whole adjustment at that time, retrospectively There may be other ways of dealing with the situation. if necessary. My view is that the simplest way by far would be to increase the retirement age. The Government Actuary 3.28 pm has said clearly that the entire cost of what we now seek to fund relates to increased longevity. We could thus Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab): I am pleased to conclude that if the change relates to longevity we must be able to follow the hon. Member for Bournemouth, increase the retirement age to pay for it, without going West (Sir John Butterfill), who has given sterling service 1007 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 1008 Government Changes) Government Changes) to the House over many years through his chairmanship earlier. I will try to make my point more clearly now. of the parliamentary pension fund. I was privileged to She will note that whether the accrual rate is 1/40th or serve on the fund for a good six or seven years after 1/50th of final salary, the increase in percentage contribution 1997 and I saw the skilful way in which he steered the demanded is 1.9 per cent. In paragraph (1)(c) of the fund and coped with the problems that were faced. motion, which relates to an accrual rate of 1/60th of The hon. Gentleman said that the average term of a final salary, the increase in percentage contribution is Member of Parliament was now considered to be simply 0.4 per cent. My question does not relate simply 12 years. I am sure that he recalls that one of the first to the disparity between those percentage rates. It is things that we did after 1997 was to review the average based on a calculation of the respective total percentage span of time spent as a Member of Parliament, and it contributions, which are 5.9, 7.9 and 11.9 per cent. was eight years in those days. To draw on the remarks I know that my hon. Friend wishes to write to me, made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud and I am trying to lay out this question as clearly as I (Mr. Drew), who made an excellent speech, that shows can in order to receive as full an answer as possible. On that many Members leave the House in what would a £64,000 salary, those percentages represent respectively otherwise be the middle of their career. They then find £3,776, £5,056 and £7,616. If she then calculates what it difficult to resume the career that they had before 1/40th, 1/50th and 1/60th of that salary is, she will find entering Parliament. Often, their income, and their that it equates respectively to £1,066, £1,280 and £1,600 pension in particular, suffers as a result, because they in retirement. can never return to the position they would have had if they had not entered Parliament. I take issue with my Steve Webb: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? hon. Friend the Member for Stroud on one point. He talked about the pension scheme being a perk. It is Barry Gardiner: Not at this stage, because I want to always wrong to think of pension schemes as a perk. In set out the question as clearly as I can. any walk of life, a pension scheme is one thing and one thing only: it is wages deferred, and we must always Mr. Phil Willis (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD): regard it as such. We have the answer. Mr. Drew: What I said is that the pension is perceived as a perk. Barry Gardiner: The hon. Gentlemen may need to the listen to the question before they provide an answer. Barry Gardiner: I entirely accept my hon. Friend’s To achieve each sum, the respective gearing would be correction. He is right that the pension is often perceived 3.54, 3.95 and 4.76 years in retirement. That inequity as a perk, but it is wages deferred. It should always be does not reflect different longevities or anything like considered as such in calculations of the whole remuneration that, and the disparities in the costs to the pot should be package. That is true whether we are talking about met from the fund that has accrued from the investment Members of Parliament or any person in the public or of those initial sums from now until retirement. I therefore private sector work force. It is absolutely right that we wish to receive an explanation of the differential gearing should contribute to the costs imposed on the fund as a effect of those contribution rates. result of longevity. In so far as the proposals seek to My hon. Friend the Minister passed a note to me achieve that, they should be accepted by Members in all stating that parts of the House. “if Members contributions are to increase, it is fair that all I should like to reinforce the remarks of the hon. Members pay the same increase”, Member for Bournemouth, West. He said that actuarial but that cannot be right. They should pay rateably calculations are a snapshot. It is particularly ridiculous equivalent increases for the benefits that they hope to for a snapshot taken at a time of global shares meltdown accrue, not simply the same standard 1.9 per cent. I now in 2008-09 to set the pattern for the future. Of course, give way to the hon. Member for Northavon (Steve the previous actuarial calculations related to 2005. He Webb). made the point very well that had the employer’s contributions been maintained over that period, the fund would, in 2005, have been in a £5 million surplus, Steve Webb indicated dissent. rather than the £50 million deficit that it found itself in. It is important to recognise that actuaries looking at Barry Gardiner: Okay. pension funds always seem to take account of the good I also listened carefully to what the pension fund times, in terms of stopping putting contributions in, but chairman, the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West, of course it is precisely at the bad times that they said about changing the retirement age. That is a way to reassess, look at the stock market and say that the fund introduce a sliding scale, but would one be able to take has a much lower valuation than they believed it would one’s pension benefits only after 65 years old, or would have, so extra money has to be put in. Usually, that the benefits be reduced if they were taken at 65? If it demand falls not only on the employer’s part of the were the former, and people were unable to access their contribution, but on the employees’ part, too. That is a pension benefits until they were older than 65, there way in which employees—I am referring not simply to might be difficulties for people who had left the House Members in this House, but to employees who contribute and gained employment with a pension cut-off age to any pension fund—end up being short-changed by of 65. that method of valuation. I wish to put a specific point to my hon. Friend the Sir John Butterfill: The retirement age is simply a Deputy Leader of the House. I am sorry if it caused her target set by the scheme. If a member sought to retire confusion and consternation when I intervened on her before that date, they would suffer an actuarial diminution 1009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 1010 Government Changes) Government Changes) [Sir John Butterfill] sympathy for what the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West said about increasing retirement ages; that is a in their pension. That is the way it always works with good direction in which to go. Pending that, however, such schemes, but the move to 67 years old, which I what should we be doing for 2009-10? have suggested, is in line with what we are doing on We are all aware that the world has moved on. A national insurance-based pensions, whose starting age 20 per cent. Exchequer contribution was first mooted will go up over the years to 68. We have already recognised two years ago, in 2007. That has been the backdrop to the need for that move on state retirement pensions, and our deliberations for a two-year period, but we would there is no reason why we should not do the same thing all accept that the world of 2007 was very different from with our own. ours today. What seemed appropriate then as a cap on the Treasury contribution does not seem so now. It was Barry Gardiner: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman a very different economic environment. That was not for his clarification and, in that respect, I entirely agree. quite so before the crash, but we were certainly not in In addition, I add my welcome to this afternoon’s the full depths of the economic problems. The position proposals to reinstate the Science and Technology of people in many other pension schemes was not as Committee. It is excellent that the Government apparent as it is now, and public attitudes to the House have listened to the points that have been made and were obviously different then. reintroduced it. I accept the point made by the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew). We should not apologise for existing 3.39 pm or for the work that we do, and we should not give an Steve Webb (Northavon) (LD): I shall principally inappropriate impression of the pensions and benefits address the pensions issue before us, but I should like to that we receive. However, many of us feel that the world place on the record my appreciation of the Science and has simply moved on so much that it is inappropriate in Technology Committee, which has been chaired with 2009-10 to ask the taxpayer to make any additional exceptional ability by my hon. Friend the Member for contribution to our pensions in comparison with 2008-09. Harrogate and Knaresborough (Mr. Willis). His whole It is sometimes suggested that that is a hair-shirt Committee has contributed a great deal to the House, approach, but it is worth putting the issue in context. and I am pleased that it will be able to continue to do so We are talking about the difference between an employer until the general election. contribution of 28.7 per cent—or 20.2 per cent., which Amendment (a) stands in my name and those of the takes away the deficit bit for the sake of comparability; right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) and my that is how I think it should be—and 18.1 per cent. or hon. Friends the Members for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) 18.3 per cent., depending on what people think the right and for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris). I number is. In other words, we are arguing about whether shall seek to move the amendment formally at the end the taxpayer should put 20 per cent. or so or 18 per of this debate, but I should like now to address the cent. or so of our salary into our pensions. Such figures reasons behind it. I would like to seek clarification from would be beyond the dreams of avarice for anybody in the Deputy Leader of the House, who I hope has had the private sector and for quite a number of people in the chance to seek inspiration, on the issue that I raised the public sector. Occasionally we need to remind ourselves in intervening on the hon. Member for Bournemouth, that although, as the hon. Member for Stroud said, West (Sir John Butterfill). I apologise if I did not some people right at the top of the public sector in explain my question terribly clearly. certain professions have exceptionally generous pensions, their numbers are relatively small. The vast swathe of The motion in front of us says that the Exchequer public sector workers retire on vastly less generous contribution will be 28.7 per cent.; that much seems pensions than we do. unambiguous. However, page 25 of the Government Actuary’s report published in March 2009 says that the One of the issues that has been raised is whether we amount needed to clear the deficit is 8.5 per cent. per should simply accept what review bodies say. It is a year; there are two components—the amount for the serious point; if we second-guess the independent review recurring liabilities and the amount to clear the historic bodies and do a bit more of the hair-shirt, what is the deficit, and the second of those is 8.5 per cent. According point of those bodies? However, even those bodies to my maths, if we take 8.5 per cent. from 28.7 per cent., accepted that we have to take account of the changing we end up with 20.2 per cent. I am aware that that world in which we live. 8.5 per cent. was 8.7 per cent. last year—and 28.7 minus I want to quote what Sir John Baker said in June 8.7 is 20, so I can see why that would have appeared to 2008. He referred to the 2007 Senior Salaries Review be the right number. This year, however, it does not Body report, which referred to the Exchequer cost of appear to be the right number, as 28.7 minus 8.5 is 20.2. the accrual of benefits for MPs being in principle limited I cannot see how what the Government’s unamended to 20 per cent. But he also stated, at paragraph 63, that motion proposes is consistent with the resolution of the “the best solution would be for the Independent Body to continue House that the Exchequer contribution should be restricted to consider MPs’ pension arrangements bearing in mind the to 20 per cent. I might simply be missing something; unusual career pattern of MPs”— that is quite possible, given the technicality of the area. that was the point that the hon. Member for Brent, However, I hope that the Minister—perhaps with some North (Barry Gardiner) made— advice—will clarify the point before the end of the “and the evolution of pensions in the public sector and wider debate. Whether the figure should be 20 per cent. or economy.” 20.2 per cent., amendment (a) is about this transitional That is the crucial phrase. In other words, even the year, prior to the Senior Salaries Review Body reporting independent review body was saying that these things on a more root-and-branch reform. I have a lot of are not set in stone, and that the world outside, public 1011 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 1012 Government Changes) Government Changes) sector pensions and the wider economy are moving on. main motion, essentially reversing the pay rise that we We in this House should therefore have discretion not have had, and that their preference would be for any always to have to wait for the next independent review, further rebalancing in line with the amendment to come which might take 18 months or might not be due to in the form of diminished scheme benefits rather than report for another year. We have to make a decision increased current contributions. more or less today, and in a sense we are probably I have an open mind about what the right mixture is, nearly three months late in making it, because whatever but I would be happy to enter into conversation with we do will be backdated to 1 April. the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West, the chairman Even Sir John Baker said that the independent body of the trustees, and with the Leader of the House and should bear in mind what is going on in the wider her colleagues. Assuming that the amendment is passed, economy. Prior to the SSRB’s report, we already know I will be happy to discuss with them how to achieve the what is going on. Only this week, we had reports of the right mixture in a way that deals with taxpayers’ concerns further demise of private sector final salary schemes, but is fair to hon. Members. and it important that we as a House show that we know what is happening in the wider economy. Mr. Love: I thank the hon. Gentleman for being liberal in taking interventions. Is not the weakness of Mr. Love: We have a prominent but small scheme, both the amendment and the motion that these ideas and the question for us is whether we should give a lead have been brought forward by Members of Parliament, to the private sector or whether, because the scheme is for Members of Parliament? There is little or no trust relatively small and funded, which is unusual in the outside in MPs taking decisions about themselves. Would public sector, we should be a lag indicator. That will be it not therefore be better to refer all this to an independent critical to how things evolve. body? I submit that the SSRB has not always been seen Steve Webb: That is a very thoughtful comment. In to be independent on public sector issues, so perhaps we my view, we have to be a leading indicator. We must be should roll the whole thing into the Kelly review, which able to consider what is happening in the public sector appears to have the confidence of the public and which with some credibility. Public sector pensions are very will report later this year. diverse, and I do not have a blanket view about them. Steve Webb: One of my concerns about that suggestion The amount that workers put in, the salary that they is that it would mean yet more delay. As our debate has get, their job security and the physical demands on illustrated, these are complex matters. Bringing the them are different, and there is not a one-size-fits-all review under a different review body, which would not answer to the public sector pension issue. quite have to start from scratch, but which would have That is why our party believes in having, perhaps as to get up to speed quickly, could delay things further. the first act of a new Government, an independent Either way, we need a decision for 2009-10, and as I commission, ideally with buy-in across the political have said, we are already nearly three months late in spectrum, to review public sector pensions urgently. It making it. Until we have heard the views of independent could ensure that they are fair to the taxpayer, who experts, the public will expect us to make a decision makes a substantial contribution to them, and to public now. They will judge what we do, and to go by the sector workers. Some of them at the top do extraordinarily indications that we have been given in the past 24 hours, well, but some at the bottom have pretty rotten jobs and certainly the feedback that I have received, the with pretty poor salaries and end up with pretty poor public welcome what we have done. pensions. There is a balance to be struck, and if we want There is a slight danger of grandstanding. I am fully to say anything about later retirement ages, for example, seized of that risk, but hon. Members might be interested it would be appropriate for us to have examined our to learn that some of the media comment about the own scheme first and been willing to take the relevant amendment has almost been saying that this might be conclusions on the chin ourselves. the moment when people finally get it. I would not be so Mr. Drew: One point that must be addressed is that arrogant as to suggest that that was down to me, but those who leave a scheme early often receive enhancements. there is a sense of the commentators saying, “Perhaps There is a belief that those enhancements come almost we’re seeing a change in mood.” Given everything that from outer space, but in fact they come from the scheme. we have been through, it might be helpful to us to send a They have a disproportionate effect on lower-paid people signal that we are looking at things differently. I hope who serve their full term and then end up with an even that that will be constructive, rather than to the detriment poorer pension. of other colleagues in the House. Steve Webb: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) point. We have been doing some research on local (LD): Perhaps my hon. Friend will answer on the record authority chief executives and senior officers, for example, a question that I have asked him privately: what independent who seem to retire very early and get substantial boosts authority or body supports the amendment? In other to their pension on leaving. As he rightly says, that words, is there a case for his proposal being agreed to money comes from somewhere—either from other scheme now, on the basis that people outside this place have members or from council tax payers, or I suspect from said, “This is the right thing to do; therefore we should both. That needs to be addressed. get on and do it”? To return to our own scheme, the amendment argues that we should return the Exchequer contribution for Steve Webb: My hon. Friend might have missed the 2009-10 to its 2008-09 level. As the debate has illustrated, bit when I dealt with that point. The independent there are a wide variety of ways of doing that. A Sir John Baker says in paragraph 63 that we should number of my colleagues have said that we will already consider not just the normal matters, but be putting £60-odd extra a month in as a result of the “the evolution of pensions in the public sector and wider economy.” 1013 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 1014 Government Changes) Government Changes) [Steve Webb] changes that took place when the present Prime Minister took over; the speed with which the Departments were In other words, we should not just take such decisions reorganised took everyone by surprise. He certainly did in a vacuum. He was talking about what the independent not consult me at the time; had he done so, I would have review bodies should do, but as we have to take an told him that certain responsibilities needed to be protected. interim decision for ourselves, he has given us the authority to look at what is happening in the wider I am grateful for the speedy way in which the science economy. That substantiates the case for saying that it is Minister, Lord Drayson, responded within three days to entirely appropriate for us to take into account, in our the Leader of the House to say that our idea clearly interim decision making, what is happening to public needed support and that he supported it. I cannot sector pensions, where retirement ages are rising, and remember a Minister responding to the Leader of the what is happening in the private sector, where there are House in such a clear way before. That spoke volumes some dreadful things. That is only right and proper. about how the House and the broader science community view the importance of science in tackling all the great Before concluding, I would like briefly to thank the global challenges that we face. It would be inconceivable 23 hon. Members who supported early-day motion for a Department the size of the new Department for 1389, which was the precursor to amendment (a). I am Business, Innovation and Skills, with all its responsibilities, grateful to them all, particularly the hon. Member for not to have anyone examining the very machinery that Worthing, West (Peter Bottomley), who was the one will deliver the changes. The changes could involve the Conservative MP to give his support, four weeks ago. I environment, energy, the green technologies or the plethora was grateful for the support of the other 197 last night, of health reforms coming out of our laboratories and which was obviously what clinched things. However, I our pharmaceutical and technology companies. Without am also grateful to those hon. Members who were being able to scrutinise all those matters, the House, the willing to go out on a limb, because I am aware that I Government and our nation would all be the poorer. I probably lost my copy of “How to Win Friends and want to put on record our genuine thanks to the science Influence People” in raising the matter in the first place. Minister. To reflect what the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love) said in his intervention, we need to move to I also want to put on record my thanks to the many a situation with pay and pensions where we hand decisions learned societies and organisations—including the Royal for wise and independent assessment over to those who Society of Chemistry, the Royal Academy of Engineering, are not seen to be partisan and who will take account of the Royal Society, the Institute of Biology, the Institute what is happening in the wider economy and the public of Physics, the Campaign for Science and Engineering sector, although it is also critical that we ask them the and many others—that did not just sit and say, “Woe is right question. I hope that we can reach that point after us!”, but wrote and lobbied the Government about this interim year. I also hope that in responding to this the changes. debate the Deputy Leader of the House will say whether Above all, I want to thank the members of my she feels that the substantive motion hits the 20 per present Committee, the Committee on Innovation, cent., because I do not believe that it does. However, I Universities, Science and Skills, including the hon. Member would also commend amendment (a) to the House. for Bolton, South-East (Dr. Iddon), who was in his place earlier, for the enormous job of work that they 3.54 pm have done over many years—in some cases, since Mr. Phil Willis (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD): before I arrived here. We heard earlier about the Perhaps it is time for a change of mood. I have listened distinguished contribution of my hon. Friend the Member to most of this debate, which has been about the changes for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) to the Committee to Members’ pensions, and I agree with the hon. Member in its halcyon days. for Edmonton (Mr. Love). I have listened to the hon. This is probably the only chance that I will have to Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir John Butterfill) put on record my thanks to Dr. Ian Gibson, the former and my hon. Friend the Member for Northavon (Steve Member for Norwich, North. I do not wish to comment Webb), who bring incredible expertise to this area, for on the circumstances in which he left the House, but it is which the whole House will thank them, but at the end important to put on record his enormous contribution of the day, unless things are done independently of the to the House and to science, including his work in House of Commons, I suspect that the headlines that supporting cancer charities. He encouraged the Government the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) constantly to introduce cancer plans and followed that up. He also referred to in his contribution will continue, because worked on embryology, and we should acknowledge journalists will simply wrap them up according to how that the draft Human Tissue and Embryos Bill was they want to portray Members of Parliament. I thank largely a result of his early work. I want to put on those hon. Members for their contributions, none record my thanks to him, along with those of our the less. Committee and, I hope, of the House, and to wish him I want to make a brief contribution to the debate in well in his early retirement. order to thank the Deputy Leader of the House and the Government for the way in which the machinery of The machinery of government changes have raised a government changes have restored the Science and number of specific issues for science and technology. Technology Select Committee to the business of the The Leader of the House wrote a letter to me in which House. I believe that the Government made a mistake in she said that re-establishing the Science and Technology 2007 when they got rid of the Science and Technology Committee, Committee as a separate cross-Government scrutiny “with a clear understanding that it will pursue a wide-ranging Committee. That occurred because of the speed of the agenda”— 1015 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 1016 Government Changes) Government Changes) on science and technology across the House— will live up to the House’s expectations in the few “offers the best solution”. months before we have a general election and I retire for my pension. Will the Deputy Leader of the House expand a little on that? I understand perfectly well why she does not wish 4.4 pm to introduce new Standing Orders for a new Committee Barbara Keeley: We have had an excellent debate on and instead to make all those arrangements under two different motions this afternoon. I am pleased that Standing Order No. 152, but for the Science and Technology we were able to discuss the Science and Technology Committee to work effectively, it is important that it has Committee and the structures of such Committees as the power to scrutinise science budgets. The research well as make some constructive contributions to the councils spend the majority of the Government’s money debate on pensions. I have been asked some specific for pure science, and it is in respect of the protection of questions, and I will ensure that good answers are pure science that there is the greatest concern that the provided to any that I am unable to answer here move into the new Department for Business, Innovation and now. and Skills might see a shift towards greater transactional We are all grateful that there is such a wide consensus science and the use of science for business at the expense on the new Science and Technology Committee. I regret of basic pure science. I hope that the Deputy Leader of that a mistaken step was taken in the past when we got the House will be able to reassure me on that. rid of something that was doing excellent work. I am On the plight of universities, I am not betraying a sure, however, that there is widespread consensus on the confidence when I say that I had discussions this morning views just expressed by the hon. Member for Harrogate with the Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge university, Alison and Knaresborough (Mr. Willis). Richard. She expressed very real concerns about how In business questions today, there was discussion of universities are going to be scrutinised within this massive what Select Committees can do. Let me re-emphasise new Department. I fully accept that my Committee will that it is up to Committees to take a wide-ranging be able to look at the research elements of universities—that approach to their remit, and to examine the full scope is right and proper—but issues related to teaching, of science policy and related matters across government. undergraduate work, access to universities, how we Earlier this week, a Hansard Society conference considered keep our universities world class and so forth is a job for the role of departmental Select Committees. We have a Committee on its own, particularly given that a review now moved beyond Departments turning around and of fees will take place and that the former Secretary of saying to Select Committees, “We don’t want to answer State for Innovation, Universities and Skills has committed that,” or, “You can’t look at that.” That should no to reviewing the form and function of higher education longer occur in Select Committees. In the new spirit of in the future. reform, if a Select Committee decides that it wants to As for the structure, the new Committee will have scrutinise research budgets, for example, it should be 14 members. I smiled earlier when the hon. Member for able to do so. Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) spoke about the I am also aware of the comments of Universities UK Conservative party’s passion for science. The hon. Member that there should be a Sub-Committee devoted to higher for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) is a glowing example of education. Clearly, it is up to the new departmental that commitment, as he has maintained a huge desire to Select Committee to consider that. We would not want promote science on behalf of the Conservative party, to tell it that it should set up a Sub-Committee, although and I pay tribute to him. I say to the Conservative Front clearly it could do so. Higher education is a key aspect Benchers, however, that although there were four of the work of any business Department—and of the Conservative members of the Committee since 2007, new Select Committee. It could not be otherwise. Education only one has ever turned up for active participation. has been a priority for the Government since 1997. Let Two members of the Committee—the hon. Member for us hope that the Select Committee sets up such a Mid-Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) and the hon. Member Sub-Committee. for Castle Point (Bob Spink)—have never once attended May I, like other Members, thank the trustees of the a single Committee meeting. parliamentary pension fund for their work, and particularly the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir John Mr. Shailesh Vara (North-West Cambridgeshire) (Con): Butterfill), who spoke lucidly and expansively, for his The hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) is not a chairmanship? May I correct the suggestion made by Tory. the shadow Leader of the House that there was a lack of consultation with the trustees and chair of the pension fund? My predecessor, the hon. Member for Rhondda Mr. Willis: Well, he was when he became a member of (Chris Bryant), did consult the hon. Member for the Committee. [Interruption.] I do not want to intrude Bournemouth, West. In fact, we postponed the motions on grief—or, perhaps, happiness, depending on which before the House because he was away for a short time way one looks at it. With the exception of the fantastic due to ill health, and we felt that it would not be right to contribution of the hon. Member for Daventry consider them without him here. In my new role, I have (Mr. Boswell), a fantastic member of the Committee, had meetings and reviewed earlier correspondence—the unless we get all the parties actively participating in consultation came in a busy week, but I was glad of the scrutiny, the Select Committee will not achieve what it time I spent with him. should. I say that in a good spirit, not in a negative On the questions about the 20 per cent. cap and the manner. 0.2 per cent. figure, I cannot give adequate answers in Overall, I can tell the Deputy Leader of the House the Chamber now. I will find out the answers to those that we are delighted with the changes, as is the broader good questions, and to the detailed questions put by my community of science. I only hope that the Committee hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Barry Gardiner). 1017 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 1018 Government Changes) Government Changes) [Barbara Keeley] B. RELATED PROVISIONS (2) That all proceedings of the House and of its select committees My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the in this Parliament in respect of the Business and Enterprise House is content to return to the House with further Committee and of the Innovation, Universities, Science and proposals to ensure that the Exchequer’s contribution Skills Committee shall be deemed to have been in respect of the this year does not exceed that of last year. As to the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee and the Science and main motion, Members have asked both why we did not Technology Committee, respectively. bring it forward earlier, and why we do not do so later. (3) That for the purposes of Standing Order No. 122A (Term Whatever happens, the interim step of the main motion limits for chairmen of select committees) the Business, Innovation is necessary to cap the Exchequer contribution. That and Skills Committee and the Science and Technology Committee shall be deemed to be the same committees as the Business and will entail back-dated additional payments, so it would Enterprise and Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Committee, have been unfair to people to wait until later this year. respectively. I am glad that we have been able to support the C. LIAISON COMMITTEE amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Northavon (4) That the Resolution of the House of 13 July 2005 relating (Steve Webb), my right hon. Friend the Member for to Liaison Committee (Membership) be further amended by Birkenhead (Mr. Field) and the hon. Member for leaving out, in paragraph (2), ‘Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Twickenham (Dr. Cable). If I may repeat an overused Reform’ and ‘Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills’ and phrase this week, we do get it. We understand the inserting, in the appropriate places, ‘Business, Innovation and context outside the House to which many hon. Members Skills’ and ‘Science and Technology’. have referred. We will return to the debate, and give D. EUROPEAN COMMITTEES Members a chance to vote on or agree the options (5) That Standing Order No. 119 (European Committees) be necessary to achieve a freeze on the Exchequer contribution. amended, by leaving out in the Table in paragraph (6) in respect of European Standing Committee C, ‘Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform’ and ‘Innovation, Universities and Skills’ and Mr. Love: May I accept my hon. Friend’s thanks on inserting ‘Business, Innovation and Skills’. behalf of the trustees? There appears to be a consensus across the Chamber on the motion and, I think, the amendment. That makes it all the more important that Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): We come to we have consensus as major changes are made to the motion 5— pension scheme. I ask the Office of the Leader of the House to take a lead in ensuring that all hon. Members, Steve Webb (Northavon) (LD): On a point of order, not just those who have turned up today, are fully Madam Deputy Speaker. I have clearly not understood consulted so that we take everyone with us? the rules. Will I be able to move amendment (a) formally?

Barbara Keeley: That is a fair point and I will take it Madam Deputy Speaker: Yes. on board. We will return to the debate and give hon. Members a chance to vote on, or agree, the options necessary to PARLIAMENTARY PENSIONS achieve that freeze. We will, of course, later this year Motion made, and Question proposed, tackle the wider ranging reforms resulting from the review undertaken by the SSRB. That this House endorses a package of changes to the Parliamentary pension scheme, backdated to 1 April 2009, which We should end on the point that in future we must is judged by the Government Actuary to make savings equivalent tackle the problem through an independent body. Like to 2.9 per cent. of payroll, thus capping the Exchequer contribution all the other changes that we are making, we should at 28.7 per cent., consisting of— consult Members, but the matters should be decided by (1) an increase in member contribution rates— recommendations made by another body. We should (a) from 10 to 11.9 per cent. for a pension building up to an not have to decide such things for ourselves. accrual rate of 1/40th of final salary for each year of service, Question put and agreed to. (b) from 6 to 7.9 per cent. for a pension building up to an accrual rate of 1/50th, and Resolved, (c) from 5.5 to 5.9 per cent. for a pension building up to an That, with effect from 1 October 2009, the following amendments accrual rate of 1/60th; and and related provisions be made in respect of Standing Orders: (2) the application of the scheme’s maximum pension limit of A. SELECT COMMITTEES RELATED TO GOVERNMENT two-thirds of final salary to all scheme members for future DEPARTMENTS service.—(Barbara Keeley.) (1) That Standing Order No. 152 (Select committees related to Amendment made: (a) at end add government departments) be amended in the Table in paragraph (2) as follows— ‘and calls on the Leader of the House to bring forward further proposals which will cap the Exchequer contribution for 2009–10 (a) leave out items 1 and 11; and at its 2008–09 level.’—(Steve Webb.) (b) insert, in the appropriate places, the following items: Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.

Business, Innovation and Department for Business, Skills Innovation and Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): On a point Skills 11 of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. There is growing Science and Technology Government Office for anger concerning motion 9, which we will shortly reach, Science 14 because it seeks to require the Yorkshire and Humber Regional Grand Committee to meet in Barnsley. Many 1019 Standing Orders etc. (Machinery of 25 JUNE 2009 1020 Government Changes) Opposition Members feel that it should meet in Business without Debate Bridlington—[Interruption.] I am supported in that view by my hon. Friends the Members for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Goodwill) and for Beverley and SOUTH WEST REGIONAL GRAND Holderness (Mr. Stuart). Will you confirm that under COMMITTEE the provision of Standing Order 117A, it is not possible Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing to debate the motion, or the motions that come before Order No.117A(3)), it, because of the terms of the Standing Order, even That the South West Regional Grand Committee shall meet in though we have not yet reached the moment of Exeter on Thursday 3 September between 10.30 am and 1.00 pm interruption? Because of that, is it not the case that the to take questions under Standing Order No. 117B (Regional only way in which my hon. Friends and I can show our Grand Committees (questions for oral answer)) and to hold a displeasure at the motions is by dividing the House? general debate on the response to the economic downturn: tackling unemployment.—[Mark Tami.] Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I can confirm The House divided: Ayes 114, Noes 105. what the right hon. Gentleman says. There can be no Division No. 158] [4.16 pm debate, but when that motion is reached on the Order Paper, he may well divide the House if he wishes. AYES Anderson, Mr. David Hopkins, Kelvin Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): On a Atkins, Charlotte Howarth, rh Mr. George point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will you, from Bailey, Mr. Adrian Illsley, Mr. Eric the Chair, advise the House whether this is a good issue Baird, Vera Jackson, Glenda to refer to the Procedure Committee? It seems that Balls, rh Ed Jenkins, Mr. Brian Back-Bench Members will be totally out of the loop in Battle, rh John Jones, Helen Bayley, Hugh Jones, Mr. Martyn the time and place where the Regional Committees Begg, Miss Anne Joyce, Mr. Eric will meet. Bell, Sir Stuart Keeley, Barbara Blackman, Liz Keen, Alan Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is in a Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq position to make that referral to the Procedure Committee Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Kidney, Mr. David himself. Brown, Lyn Lepper, David Browne, rh Des Levitt, Tom Bryant, Chris Mackinlay, Andrew Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): On a Butler, Ms Dawn Mactaggart, Fiona point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have listened Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Mann, John carefully to the concerns expressed by right hon. and Cairns, David McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas hon. Members. Given that we were given no notice of Cawsey, Mr. Ian McCabe, Steve the motions beyond the fact that they would be on the Coaker, Mr. Vernon McCarthy, Kerry Order Paper today, is there any way for the Chair to Cohen, Harry McCarthy-Fry, Sarah consider manuscript amendments, or will we have no Cooper, Rosie McCartney, rh Mr. Ian debate and no amendments? Cooper, rh Yvette Merron, Gillian Creagh, Mary Moffatt, Laura Cruddas, Jon Morden, Jessica Madam Deputy Speaker: I regret to inform the Cryer, Mrs. Ann Mudie, Mr. George hon. Gentleman that it is not possible for that to be Cummings, John Mullin, Mr. Chris done today. David, Mr. Wayne Olner, Mr. Bill Dean, Mrs. Janet Pearson, Ian Dismore, Mr. Andrew Pelling, Mr. Andrew Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire) (Con): Dobson, rh Frank Pope, Mr. Greg On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Given Doran, Mr. Frank Pound, Stephen that it is only 4.15 pm and the Minister is present, is it Drew, Mr. David Primarolo, rh Dawn not possible for her to explain to us why the meeting of Efford, Clive Purchase, Mr. Ken the North West Regional Grand Committee must take Ellman, Mrs. Louise Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick place when Parliament has reassembled, but other Regional Engel, Natascha Reed, Mr. Jamie Grand Committees are to meet when it is in recess? Fisher, Mark Robertson, John Some Committees are meeting at the same time as both Fitzpatrick, Jim Ruane, Chris the Liberal Democrat and the Conservative party Follett, Barbara Seabeck, Alison conferences, yet none are meeting at the same time as Foster, Michael Jabez Sharma, Mr. Virendra the Labour party conference. Can the Minister not (Hastings and Rye) Sheridan, Jim Gapes, Mike Skinner, Mr. Dennis stand up and explain those facts to the House? Gardiner, Barry Slaughter, Mr. Andy Gerrard, Mr. Neil Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Hon. Members: Answer! Gilroy, Linda Soulsby, Sir Peter Goodman, Helen Spellar, rh Mr. John Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The occupant of the Grogan, Mr. John Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Chair is about to give an answer. Hamilton, Mr. David Stewart, Ian Hanson, rh Mr. David Straw, rh Mr. Jack Given the way in which the motions have been tabled, Harman, rh Ms Harriet Stuart, Ms Gisela there is no possibility of debate, merely a possibility of Healey, rh John Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry votes. I repeat what I have already said: if Members so Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Taylor, David choose, the House can divide on these issues. Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Timms, rh Mr. Stephen 1021 Business without Debate25 JUNE 2009 Business without Debate 1022

Twigg, Derek Wilson, Phil That the East Midlands Regional Grand Committee shall Walley, Joan Wright, David meet in Nottingham on Wednesday 9 September between 1.00 pm Watson, Mr. Tom Wright, Mr. Iain and 3.30 pm to take questions under Standing Order No. 117B Whitehead, Dr. Alan (Regional Grand Committees (questions for oral answer)) and to Tellers for the Ayes: hold a general debate on Building Britain’s Future: how the Williams, Mrs. Betty Mark Tami and region will make the most of the upturn.—(Kerry McCarthy.) Wills, rh Mr. Michael Mr. Dave Watts The House divided: Ayes 98, Noes 104. NOES Division No. 159] [4.27 pm Afriyie, Adam Kirkbride, Miss Julie Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Knight, rh Mr. Greg AYES Atkinson, Mr. Peter Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Anderson, Mr. David Kidney, Mr. David Baker, Norman Lidington, Mr. David Baird, Vera Lepper, David Beith, rh Sir Alan Loughton, Tim Balls, rh Ed Levitt, Tom Bellingham, Mr. Henry Luff, Peter Battle, rh John Mackinlay, Andrew Bone, Mr. Peter Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Bayley, Hugh Mactaggart, Fiona Browne, Mr. Jeremy Mates, rh Mr. Michael Begg, Miss Anne Mann, John Burns, Mr. Simon Maude, rh Mr. Francis Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Burrowes, Mr. David McIntosh, Miss Anne Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben McCabe, Steve Burstow, Mr. Paul McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Brown, Lyn McCarthy, Kerry Butterfill, Sir John Murrison, Dr. Andrew Browne, rh Des McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Cable, Dr. Vincent Oaten, Mr. Mark Bryant, Chris Merron, Gillian Cash, Mr. William Öpik, Lembit Cairns, David Moffatt, Laura Chope, Mr. Christopher Penning, Mike Coaker, Mr. Vernon Morden, Jessica Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Penrose, John Cohen, Harry Mudie, Mr. George Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Redwood, rh Mr. John Cooper, Rosie Pearson, Ian Davies, Philip Reid, Mr. Alan Cooper, rh Yvette Pelling, Mr. Andrew Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Rennie, Willie Creagh, Mary Pope, Mr. Greg Duddridge, James Rosindell, Andrew Cruddas, Jon Pound, Stephen Duncan, Alan Ruffley, Mr. David Cryer, Mrs. Ann Primarolo, rh Dawn Evennett, Mr. David Russell, Bob Cummings, John Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Field, Mr. Mark Sanders, Mr. Adrian David, Mr. Wayne Reed, Mr. Jamie Foster, Mr. Don Scott, Mr. Lee Dismore, Mr. Andrew Robertson, John Fox, Dr. Liam Selous, Andrew Dobson, rh Frank Rooney, Mr. Terry Francois, Mr. Mark Soames, Mr. Nicholas Doran, Mr. Frank Ruane, Chris Gauke, Mr. David Spring, Mr. Richard Drew, Mr. David Seabeck, Alison George, Andrew Eagle, Maria Stanley, rh Sir John Sharma, Mr. Virendra Gibb, Mr. Nick Efford, Clive Steen, Mr. Anthony Sheridan, Jim Gidley, Sandra Engel, Natascha Stuart, Mr. Graham Skinner, Mr. Dennis Goodman, Mr. Paul Fisher, Mark Stunell, Andrew Slaughter, Mr. Andy Grieve, Mr. Dominic Fitzpatrick, Jim Swayne, Mr. Desmond Gummer, rh Mr. John Foster, Michael Jabez Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Swinson, Jo Hague, rh Mr. William (Hastings and Rye) Soulsby, Sir Peter Hands, Mr. Greg Swire, Mr. Hugo Gapes, Mike Spellar, rh Mr. John Harper, Mr. Mark Syms, Mr. Robert Gardiner, Barry Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Harris, Dr. Evan Taylor, Mr. Ian Gerrard, Mr. Neil Straw, rh Mr. Jack Hayes, Mr. John Turner, Mr. Andrew Gilroy, Linda Stuart, Ms Gisela Heath, Mr. David Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Goodman, Helen Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Herbert, Nick Vara, Mr. Shailesh Griffith, Nia Taylor, David Hoban, Mr. Mark Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Hanson, rh Mr. David Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Hollobone, Mr. Philip Waterson, Mr. Nigel Harman, rh Ms Harriet Twigg, Derek Holmes, Paul Watkinson, Angela Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Vaz, rh Keith Horam, Mr. John Webb, Steve Hopkins, Kelvin Watson, Mr. Tom Horwood, Martin Wiggin, Bill Howarth, rh Mr. George Whitehead, Dr. Alan Howard, rh Mr. Michael Willetts, Mr. David Illsley, Mr. Eric Wills, rh Mr. Michael Howarth, David Willis, Mr. Phil Jackson, Glenda Wilson, Phil Howell, John Willott, Jenny Jenkins, Mr. Brian Wright, Mr. Anthony Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Jones, Helen Winterton, Ann Wright, David Hurd, Mr. Nick Jones, Mr. Martyn Winterton, Sir Nicholas Wright, Mr. Iain Jack, rh Mr. Michael Joyce, Mr. Eric Younger-Ross, Richard Jackson, Mr. Stewart Keeley, Barbara Tellers for the Ayes: Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Tellers for the Noes: Keen, Alan Mark Tami and Jones, Mr. David Alistair Burt and Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Mr. Dave Watts Keetch, Mr. Paul Mr. Rob Wilson NOES Question accordingly agreed to. Afriyie, Adam Burns, Mr. Simon Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Burrowes, Mr. David EAST MIDLANDS REGIONAL GRAND Baker, Norman Burstow, Mr. Paul COMMITTEE Beith, rh Sir Alan Butterfill, Sir John Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Bone, Mr. Peter Cable, Dr. Vincent Order No.117A(3)), Browne, Mr. Jeremy Chope, Mr. Christopher 1023 Business without Debate25 JUNE 2009 Business without Debate 1024

Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Brennan, Kevin Levitt, Tom Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Mates, rh Mr. Michael Brown, Lyn Mackinlay, Andrew Davies, Philip Maude, rh Mr. Francis Browne, rh Des Mann, John Davis, rh David McIntosh, Miss Anne Bryant, Chris McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Byers, rh Mr. Stephen McCabe, Steve Duddridge, James Murrison, Dr. Andrew Cairns, David McCarthy, Kerry Duncan, Alan Oaten, Mr. Mark Coaker, Mr. Vernon McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Evennett, Mr. David Öpik, Lembit Cohen, Harry McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Field, Mr. Mark Penning, Mike Cooper, Rosie Merron, Gillian Foster, Mr. Don Penrose, John Cooper, rh Yvette Moffatt, Laura Fox, Dr. Liam Randall, Mr. John Creagh, Mary Mole, Chris Francois, Mr. Mark Redwood, rh Mr. John Cruddas, Jon Morden, Jessica Gauke, Mr. David Reid, Mr. Alan Cryer, Mrs. Ann Mudie, Mr. George George, Andrew Rennie, Willie David, Mr. Wayne Mullin, Mr. Chris Gibb, Mr. Nick Rosindell, Andrew Davies, Mr. Quentin Pearson, Ian Gidley, Sandra Ruffley, Mr. David Dismore, Mr. Andrew Pelling, Mr. Andrew Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Russell, Bob Dobson, rh Frank Pope, Mr. Greg Goodman, Mr. Paul Sanders, Mr. Adrian Doran, Mr. Frank Pound, Stephen Grieve, Mr. Dominic Scott, Mr. Lee Drew, Mr. David Primarolo, rh Dawn Gummer, rh Mr. John Selous, Andrew Eagle, Angela Purchase, Mr. Ken Hague, rh Mr. William Soames, Mr. Nicholas Eagle, Maria Rammell, Bill Hands, Mr. Greg Spring, Mr. Richard Efford, Clive Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Harper, Mr. Mark Stanley, rh Sir John Engel, Natascha Robertson, John Harris, Dr. Evan Steen, Mr. Anthony Fisher, Mark Rooney, Mr. Terry Hayes, Mr. John Stuart, Mr. Graham Fitzpatrick, Jim Ruane, Chris Heath, Mr. David Stunell, Andrew Follett, Barbara Seabeck, Alison Herbert, Nick Swayne, Mr. Desmond Foster, Michael Jabez Sharma, Mr. Virendra Hoban, Mr. Mark Swinson, Jo (Hastings and Rye) Sheridan, Jim Hollobone, Mr. Philip Swire, Mr. Hugo Gapes, Mike Skinner, Mr. Dennis Holmes, Paul Syms, Mr. Robert Gardiner, Barry Slaughter, Mr. Andy Horam, Mr. John Turner, Mr. Andrew Gerrard, Mr. Neil Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Horwood, Martin Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Gilroy, Linda Soulsby, Sir Peter Howard, rh Mr. Michael Vara, Mr. Shailesh Goodman, Helen Howarth, David Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Griffith, Nia Spellar, rh Mr. John Howell, John Waterson, Mr. Nigel Hanson, rh Mr. David Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Watkinson, Angela Harman, rh Ms Harriet Stewart, Ian Hurd, Mr. Nick Webb, Steve Healey, rh John Straw, rh Mr. Jack Jack, rh Mr. Michael Wiggin, Bill Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Stuart, Ms Gisela Jackson, Mr. Stewart Willetts, Mr. David Hope, Phil Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Willis, Mr. Phil Hopkins, Kelvin Taylor, David Jones, Mr. David Willott, Jenny Howarth, rh Mr. George Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Illsley, Mr. Eric Keetch, Mr. Paul Winterton, Ann Twigg, Derek Kirkbride, Miss Julie Irranca-Davies, Huw Winterton, Sir Nicholas Vaz, rh Keith Knight, rh Mr. Greg Jackson, Glenda Younger-Ross, Richard Watson, Mr. Tom Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Jenkins, Mr. Brian Whitehead, Dr. Alan Lidington, Mr. David Tellers for the Noes: Johnson, Ms Diana R. Wills, rh Mr. Michael Loughton, Tim Alistair Burt and Jones, Helen Wilson, Phil Luff, Peter Mr. Rob Wilson Jones, Mr. Kevan Woolas, Mr. Phil Jones, Mr. Martyn Wright, Mr. Anthony Keeley, Barbara Question accordingly negatived. Wright, David Keen, Alan Wright, Mr. Iain Keen, Ann SOUTH EAST REGIONAL GRAND COMMITTEE Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Tellers for the Ayes: Kidney, Mr. David Mark Tami and Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Lepper, David Mr. Dave Watts Order No.117A(3)), That the South East Regional Grand Committee shall meet in Reading on Monday 14 September between 10.30 am and 1.00 pm NOES to take questions under Standing Order No. 117B (Regional Afriyie, Adam Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Grand Committees (questions for oral answer)) and to hold a Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Cox, Mr. Geoffrey general debate on identifying the growth sectors of the South Baker, Norman Davies, Philip East Economy and ensuring that their growth is maximised.—(Kerry Beith, rh Sir Alan Davis, rh David McCarthy.) Bellingham, Mr. Henry Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan The House divided: Ayes 112, Noes 105. Bone, Mr. Peter Duddridge, James Browne, Mr. Jeremy Duncan, Alan Division No. 160] [4.38 pm Burns, Mr. Simon Evennett, Mr. David Burrowes, Mr. David Field, Mr. Mark AYES Burstow, Mr. Paul Foster, Mr. Don Anderson, Mr. David Bayley, Hugh Burt, Alistair Fox, Dr. Liam Baird, Vera Begg, Miss Anne Butterfill, Sir John Francois, Mr. Mark Balls, rh Ed Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Cable, Dr. Vincent Gauke, Mr. David Battle, rh John Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Chope, Mr. Christopher George, Andrew 1025 Business without Debate25 JUNE 2009 Business without Debate 1026

Gibb, Mr. Nick Oaten, Mr. Mark (Regional Grand Committees (questions for oral answer)) and to Gidley, Sandra Öpik, Lembit hold a general debate on responding to the downturn and planning Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Penning, Mike the region’s future economy.—(Kerry McCarthy.) Goodman, Mr. Paul Penrose, John Grieve, Mr. Dominic Randall, Mr. John The House divided: Ayes 118, Noes 110. Gummer, rh Mr. John Redwood, rh Mr. John Division No. 161] [4.49 pm Hague, rh Mr. William Reid, Mr. Alan Hands, Mr. Greg Rennie, Willie AYES Harper, Mr. Mark Rosindell, Andrew Harris, Dr. Evan Russell, Bob Anderson, Mr. David Jones, Mr. Martyn Hayes, Mr. John Sanders, Mr. Adrian Austin, Mr. Ian Keeley, Barbara Heath, Mr. David Scott, Mr. Lee Baird, Vera Keen, Alan Herbert, Nick Selous, Andrew Balls, rh Ed Keen, Ann Battle, rh John Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Hoban, Mr. Mark Soames, Mr. Nicholas Hollobone, Mr. Philip Bayley, Hugh Kidney, Mr. David Spring, Mr. Richard Holmes, Paul Begg, Miss Anne Lepper, David Stanley, rh Sir John Horam, Mr. John Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Levitt, Tom Steen, Mr. Anthony Horwood, Martin Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Lewis, Mr. Ivan Stuart, Mr. Graham Howard, rh Mr. Michael Brennan, Kevin Lloyd, Tony Howarth, David Stunell, Andrew Brown, Lyn Lucas, Ian Howell, John Swayne, Mr. Desmond Browne, rh Des Mackinlay, Andrew Hughes, Simon Swinson, Jo Bryant, Chris Mann, John Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Swire, Mr. Hugo Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Hurd, Mr. Nick Syms, Mr. Robert Byrne, rh Mr. Liam McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Jack, rh Mr. Michael Turner, Mr. Andrew Cairns, David McCabe, Steve Jackson, Mr. Stewart Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Clark, Paul McCarthy, Kerry Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Vara, Mr. Shailesh Coaker, Mr. Vernon McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Jones, Mr. David Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Cohen, Harry McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Keetch, Mr. Paul Waterson, Mr. Nigel Cooper, Rosie Merron, Gillian Kirkbride, Miss Julie Webb, Steve Cooper, rh Yvette Moffatt, Laura Knight, rh Mr. Greg Wiggin, Bill Creagh, Mary Mole, Chris Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Willetts, Mr. David Cruddas, Jon Morden, Jessica Lidington, Mr. David Willis, Mr. Phil Cryer, Mrs. Ann Mudie, Mr. George Loughton, Tim Willott, Jenny David, Mr. Wayne Pearson, Ian Davies, Mr. Quentin Pelling, Mr. Andrew Luff, Peter Winterton, Ann Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Dismore, Mr. Andrew Pope, Mr. Greg Winterton, Sir Nicholas Mates, rh Mr. Michael Dobson, rh Frank Pound, Stephen Younger-Ross, Richard Maude, rh Mr. Francis Doran, Mr. Frank Primarolo, rh Dawn McIntosh, Miss Anne Tellers for the Noes: Drew, Mr. David Purchase, Mr. Ken McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Mr. Rob Wilson and Eagle, Angela Rammell, Bill Murrison, Dr. Andrew Angela Watkinson Eagle, Maria Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Efford, Clive Robertson, John Question accordingly agreed to. Engel, Natascha Rooney, Mr. Terry Fisher, Mark Seabeck, Alison Fitzpatrick, Jim Sharma, Mr. Virendra Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): On a Follett, Barbara Sheridan, Jim point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The purpose of Foster, Michael Jabez Skinner, Mr. Dennis these motions is to provide for a uniform situation (Hastings and Rye) Slaughter, Mr. Andy across England in which Regional Grand Committees Francis, Dr. Hywel are allowed to meet at certain appointed times. Following Gapes, Mike Soulsby, Sir Peter the Government’s recent defeat, it appears that that Gardiner, Barry Spellar, rh Mr. John policy is in complete disarray, and we now have inequity Gerrard, Mr. Neil Starkey, Dr. Phyllis across England. Is it in your power to ask the Leader of Gilroy, Linda Stewart, Ian the House to make a statement—hopefully, one in Goodman, Helen Straw, rh Mr. Jack which she announces that she intends to withdraw all Griffith, Nia Stuart, Ms Gisela the motions and go back to the drawing board? Hain, rh Mr. Peter Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Hanson, rh Mr. David Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Harman, rh Ms Harriet Twigg, Derek Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Ihaveto Healey, rh John Vaz, rh Keith tell the hon. Gentleman that no such power is vested in Hill, rh Keith Wareing, Mr. Robert N. the Chair. We must proceed with the business on the Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Watson, Mr. Tom Order Paper. If the next motion is moved, the House Hope, Phil Wills, rh Mr. Michael will come to a decision. Hopkins, Kelvin Wilson, Phil Howarth, rh Mr. George Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Howells, rh Dr. Kim Wright, Mr. Anthony YORKSHIRE AND HUMBER REGIONAL GRAND Illsley, Mr. Eric Wright, David Irranca-Davies, Huw COMMITTEE Wright, Mr. Iain Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Jenkins, Mr. Brian Order No. 117A(3)), Johnson, Ms Diana R. Tellers for the Ayes: Jones, Helen Mark Tami and That the Yorkshire and Humber Regional Grand Committee Jones, Mr. Kevan Mr. Dave Watts shall meet in Barnsley on Thursday 29 October between 3.00 pm and 5.30 pm to take questions under Standing Order No. 117B 1027 Business without Debate25 JUNE 2009 Business without Debate 1028

NOES (Regional Grand Committees (questions for oral answer)) and to Afriyie, Adam Keetch, Mr. Paul hold a general debate on priorities for a future regional strategy.— (Kerry McCarthy.) Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Kirkbride, Miss Julie Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Knight, rh Mr. Greg The House divided: Ayes 120, Noes 105. Baker, Norman Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Division No. 162] [5.1 pm Beith, rh Sir Alan Lidington, Mr. David Bellingham, Mr. Henry Loughton, Tim Bone, Mr. Peter Luff, Peter AYES Browne, Mr. Jeremy Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Anderson, Mr. David Keen, Ann Burns, Mr. Simon Maples, Mr. John Austin, Mr. Ian Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Burrowes, Mr. David Mates, rh Mr. Michael Baird, Vera Kidney, Mr. David Burstow, Mr. Paul Maude, rh Mr. Francis Balls, rh Ed Lepper, David Burt, Alistair McIntosh, Miss Anne Battle, rh John Levitt, Tom Butterfill, Sir John McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Bayley, Hugh Lewis, Mr. Ivan Cable, Dr. Vincent Murrison, Dr. Andrew Begg, Miss Anne Lloyd, Tony Chope, Mr. Christopher Oaten, Mr. Mark Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Lucas, Ian Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Öpik, Lembit Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Mackinlay, Andrew Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Ottaway, Richard Brennan, Kevin Mann, John Davies, Philip Penning, Mike Brown, Lyn Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Davis, rh David Penrose, John Browne, rh Des McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Randall, Mr. John Bryant, Chris McCabe, Steve Duddridge, James Redwood, rh Mr. John Byers, rh Mr. Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Duncan, Alan Reid, Mr. Alan Byrne, rh Mr. Liam McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Evennett, Mr. David Rennie, Willie Cairns, David McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Field, Mr. Mark Robertson, Mr. Laurence Clark, Paul Merron, Gillian Foster, Mr. Don Rosindell, Andrew Coaker, Mr. Vernon Miliband, rh Edward Fox, Dr. Liam Russell, Bob Cohen, Harry Moffatt, Laura Francois, Mr. Mark Sanders, Mr. Adrian Cooper, Rosie Mole, Chris Garnier, Mr. Edward Scott, Mr. Lee Cooper, rh Yvette Morden, Jessica Gauke, Mr. David Selous, Andrew Creagh, Mary Mudie, Mr. George Cruddas, Jon Pearson, Ian George, Andrew Soames, Mr. Nicholas Cryer, Mrs. Ann Pelling, Mr. Andrew Gibb, Mr. Nick Spring, Mr. Richard Gidley, Sandra David, Mr. Wayne Pope, Mr. Greg Stanley, rh Sir John Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Dismore, Mr. Andrew Pound, Stephen Steen, Mr. Anthony Goodman, Mr. Paul Dobson, rh Frank Primarolo, rh Dawn Stuart, Mr. Graham Grieve, Mr. Dominic Doran, Mr. Frank Purchase, Mr. Ken Stunell, Andrew Gummer, rh Mr. John Drew, Mr. David Rammell, Bill Hague, rh Mr. William Swayne, Mr. Desmond Eagle, Angela Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Hands, Mr. Greg Swinson, Jo Eagle, Maria Robertson, John Harper, Mr. Mark Swire, Mr. Hugo Efford, Clive Rooney, Mr. Terry Harris, Dr. Evan Syms, Mr. Robert Engel, Natascha Seabeck, Alison Hayes, Mr. John Taylor, David Fitzpatrick, Jim Sharma, Mr. Virendra Heath, Mr. David Turner, Mr. Andrew Follett, Barbara Sheridan, Jim Herbert, Nick Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Foster, Michael Jabez Skinner, Mr. Dennis (Hastings and Rye) Hoban, Mr. Mark Vara, Mr. Shailesh Slaughter, Mr. Andy Hollobone, Mr. Philip Francis, Dr. Hywel Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Soulsby, Sir Peter Holmes, Paul Gapes, Mike Waterson, Mr. Nigel Spellar, rh Mr. John Horam, Mr. John Gardiner, Barry Webb, Steve Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Horwood, Martin Gerrard, Mr. Neil Wiggin, Bill Stewart, Ian Howard, rh Mr. Michael Gilroy, Linda Willetts, Mr. David Straw, rh Mr. Jack Howarth, David Willis, Mr. Phil Goodman, Helen Griffith, Nia Stuart, Ms Gisela Hughes, Simon Willott, Jenny Hain, rh Mr. Peter Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Huhne, Chris Winterton, Ann Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Hanson, rh Mr. David Taylor, David Winterton, Sir Nicholas Hurd, Mr. Nick Harman, rh Ms Harriet Thomas, Mr. Gareth Younger-Ross, Richard Jack, rh Mr. Michael Healey, rh John Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Jackson, Mr. Stewart Tellers for the Noes: Hill, rh Keith Twigg, Derek Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Mr. Rob Wilson and Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Jones, Mr. David Angela Watkinson Hope, Phil Watson, Mr. Tom Hopkins, Kelvin Watts, Mr. Dave Howarth, rh Mr. George Question accordingly agreed to. Wills, rh Mr. Michael Howells, rh Dr. Kim Wilson, Phil Hutton, rh Mr. John Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Illsley, Mr. Eric Woolas, Mr. Phil Irranca-Davies, Huw Wright, Mr. Anthony EAST OF ENGLAND REGIONAL GRAND Jenkins, Mr. Brian Wright, David COMMITTEE Johnson, Ms Diana R. Wright, Mr. Iain Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Jones, Mr. Kevan Order No.117A(3)), Jones, Mr. Martyn Tellers for the Ayes: That the East of England Regional Grand Committee shall Keeley, Barbara Mark Tami and meet in Bedford on Tuesday 8 September between 2.00 pm and Keen, Alan Helen Jones 5.30 pm to take questions under Standing Order No. 117B 1029 Business without Debate25 JUNE 2009 Business without Debate 1030

NOES The House divided: Ayes 120, Noes 105. Afriyie, Adam Kirkbride, Miss Julie Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Knight, rh Mr. Greg Division No. 163] [5.12 pm Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Baker, Norman Lidington, Mr. David AYES Beith, rh Sir Alan Loughton, Tim Anderson, Mr. David Keeley, Barbara Bone, Mr. Peter Luff, Peter Austin, Mr. Ian Keen, Alan Browne, Mr. Jeremy Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Baird, Vera Keen, Ann Burns, Mr. Simon Maples, Mr. John Balls, rh Ed Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Burrowes, Mr. David Mates, rh Mr. Michael Battle, rh John Kidney, Mr. David Burstow, Mr. Paul Maude, rh Mr. Francis Bayley, Hugh Lepper, David Burt, Alistair McIntosh, Miss Anne Begg, Miss Anne Levitt, Tom Butterfill, Sir John McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Lewis, Mr. Ivan Cable, Dr. Vincent Murrison, Dr. Andrew Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Lloyd, Tony Cash, Mr. William Oaten, Mr. Mark Brennan, Kevin Lucas, Ian Chope, Mr. Christopher Öpik, Lembit Brown, Lyn Mackinlay, Andrew Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Ottaway, Richard Browne, rh Des Mann, John Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Penning, Mike Bryant, Chris Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Davies, Philip Penrose, John Byers, rh Mr. Stephen McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Randall, Mr. John Byrne, rh Mr. Liam McCabe, Steve Duddridge, James Redwood, rh Mr. John Cairns, David McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Duncan, Alan Reid, Mr. Alan Clark, Paul McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Rennie, Willie Coaker, Mr. Vernon Merron, Gillian Evennett, Mr. David Robertson, Mr. Laurence Cohen, Harry Miliband, rh Edward Field, Mr. Mark Rosindell, Andrew Cooper, Rosie Moffatt, Laura Foster, Mr. Don Russell, Bob Cooper, rh Yvette Mole, Chris Francois, Mr. Mark Sanders, Mr. Adrian Creagh, Mary Morden, Jessica Gauke, Mr. David Scott, Mr. Lee Cruddas, Jon Mudie, Mr. George George, Andrew Selous, Andrew Cryer, Mrs. Ann Pearson, Ian Gibb, Mr. Nick Soames, Mr. Nicholas David, Mr. Wayne Pelling, Mr. Andrew Gidley, Sandra Spring, Mr. Richard Dismore, Mr. Andrew Pope, Mr. Greg Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Stanley, rh Sir John Dobson, rh Frank Pound, Stephen Grieve, Mr. Dominic Steen, Mr. Anthony Doran, Mr. Frank Prentice, Mr. Gordon Gummer, rh Mr. John Drew, Mr. David Primarolo, rh Dawn Hague, rh Mr. William Stuart, Mr. Graham Eagle, Angela Purchase, Mr. Ken Hands, Mr. Greg Stunell, Andrew Eagle, Maria Rammell, Bill Harper, Mr. Mark Swayne, Mr. Desmond Efford, Clive Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Harris, Dr. Evan Swire, Mr. Hugo Ellman, Mrs. Louise Reid, rh John Hayes, Mr. John Syms, Mr. Robert Engel, Natascha Rooney, Mr. Terry Heath, Mr. David Turner, Mr. Andrew Fisher, Mark Ruane, Chris Herbert, Nick Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Fitzpatrick, Jim Seabeck, Alison Hoban, Mr. Mark Vara, Mr. Shailesh Follett, Barbara Sharma, Mr. Virendra Hollobone, Mr. Philip Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Foster, Michael Jabez Sheridan, Jim Holmes, Paul Waterson, Mr. Nigel (Hastings and Rye) Skinner, Mr. Dennis Horam, Mr. John Watkinson, Angela Francis, Dr. Hywel Slaughter, Mr. Andy Horwood, Martin Webb, Steve Gapes, Mike Soulsby, Sir Peter Howard, rh Mr. Michael Willetts, Mr. David Gardiner, Barry Spellar, rh Mr. John Howarth, David Willis, Mr. Phil Gerrard, Mr. Neil Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Hughes, Simon Willott, Jenny Gilroy, Linda Stewart, Ian Huhne, Chris Winterton, Ann Goodman, Helen Straw, rh Mr. Jack Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Winterton, Sir Nicholas Griffith, Nia Stuart, Ms Gisela Hurd, Mr. Nick Younger-Ross, Richard Hain, rh Mr. Peter Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Jack, rh Mr. Michael Hanson, rh Mr. David Tami, Mark Jackson, Mr. Stewart Tellers for the Noes: Harman, rh Ms Harriet Thomas, Mr. Gareth Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Bill Wiggin and Healey, rh John Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Keetch, Mr. Paul Mr. Rob Wilson Hill, rh Keith Twigg, Derek Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Question accordingly agreed to. Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Watson, Mr. Tom Hope, Phil Watts, Mr. Dave Hopkins, Kelvin Wills, rh Mr. Michael Howarth, rh Mr. George Wilson, Phil NORTH WEST REGIONAL GRAND Howells, rh Dr. Kim Winterton, rh Ms Rosie COMMITTEE Hutton, rh Mr. John Wright, Mr. Anthony Irranca-Davies, Huw Wright, David Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Jenkins, Mr. Brian Wright, Mr. Iain Order No.117A(3)), Johnson, Ms Diana R. That the North West Regional Grand Committee shall meet in Jones, Mr. Kevan Tellers for the Ayes: Liverpool on Thursday 22 October between 2.00 pm and 5.30 pm Jones, Mr. Martyn Helen Jones and to take questions under Standing Order No. 117B (Regional Jowell, rh Tessa Kerry McCarthy Grand Committees (questions for oral answer)) and to hold a general debate on Building Britain’s Future: the North West’s response to the economic downturn.—(Mr. Watts.) 1031 Business without Debate25 JUNE 2009 Business without Debate 1032

NOES The House divided: Ayes 121, Noes 100. Afriyie, Adam Keetch, Mr. Paul Division No. 164] [5.23 pm Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Kirkbride, Miss Julie Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Knight, rh Mr. Greg AYES Baker, Norman Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Anderson, Mr. David Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Beith, rh Sir Alan Lidington, Mr. David Austin, Mr. Ian Kidney, Mr. David Bellingham, Mr. Henry Loughton, Tim Baird, Vera Lepper, David Bone, Mr. Peter Luff, Peter Balls, rh Ed Levitt, Tom Boswell, Mr. Tim Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Battle, rh John Lewis, Mr. Ivan Browne, Mr. Jeremy Maples, Mr. John Bayley, Hugh Lloyd, Tony Burns, Mr. Simon Mates, rh Mr. Michael Begg, Miss Anne Lucas, Ian Burrowes, Mr. David Maude, rh Mr. Francis Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Mackinlay, Andrew Burstow, Mr. Paul McIntosh, Miss Anne Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Mann, John Burt, Alistair McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Brennan, Kevin Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Butterfill, Sir John Murrison, Dr. Andrew Brown, Lyn McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Cable, Dr. Vincent Öpik, Lembit Browne, rh Des McCabe, Steve Cash, Mr. William Ottaway, Richard Bryant, Chris McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Chope, Mr. Christopher Penning, Mike Byers, rh Mr. Stephen McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Penrose, John Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Merron, Gillian Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Randall, Mr. John Cairns, David Miliband, rh Edward Davies, Philip Redwood, rh Mr. John Clark, Paul Moffatt, Laura Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Reid, Mr. Alan Coaker, Mr. Vernon Mole, Chris Duddridge, James Rennie, Willie Cohen, Harry Morden, Jessica Duncan, Alan Robertson, Mr. Laurence Cooper, Rosie Mudie, Mr. George Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Rosindell, Andrew Cooper, rh Yvette Pearson, Ian Evennett, Mr. David Russell, Bob Creagh, Mary Pelling, Mr. Andrew Field, Mr. Mark Sanders, Mr. Adrian Cruddas, Jon Pope, Mr. Greg Foster, Mr. Don Scott, Mr. Lee Cryer, Mrs. Ann Pound, Stephen Gauke, Mr. David Selous, Andrew David, Mr. Wayne Prentice, Mr. Gordon George, Andrew Soames, Mr. Nicholas Dismore, Mr. Andrew Primarolo, rh Dawn Gibb, Mr. Nick Spring, Mr. Richard Dobson, rh Frank Purchase, Mr. Ken Gidley, Sandra Stanley, rh Sir John Doran, Mr. Frank Rammell, Bill Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Steen, Mr. Anthony Drew, Mr. David Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Grieve, Mr. Dominic Stuart, Mr. Graham Eagle, Angela Reid, rh John Gummer, rh Mr. John Stunell, Andrew Eagle, Maria Seabeck, Alison Hague, rh Mr. William Swayne, Mr. Desmond Efford, Clive Sharma, Mr. Virendra Hands, Mr. Greg Swire, Mr. Hugo Engel, Natascha Sheridan, Jim Harper, Mr. Mark Syms, Mr. Robert Fisher, Mark Skinner, Mr. Dennis Harris, Dr. Evan Taylor, David Fitzpatrick, Jim Slaughter, Mr. Andy Hayes, Mr. John Turner, Mr. Andrew Follett, Barbara Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Heath, Mr. David Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Foster, Michael Jabez Soulsby, Sir Peter Herbert, Nick Vara, Mr. Shailesh (Hastings and Rye) Spellar, rh Mr. John Hoban, Mr. Mark Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Gapes, Mike Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Hollobone, Mr. Philip Waterson, Mr. Nigel Gardiner, Barry Stewart, Ian Holmes, Paul Webb, Steve Gerrard, Mr. Neil Straw, rh Mr. Jack Horam, Mr. John Wiggin, Bill Gilroy, Linda Stuart, Ms Gisela Horwood, Martin Willetts, Mr. David Goodman, Helen Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Howard, rh Mr. Michael Willott, Jenny Griffith, Nia Tami, Mark Howarth, David Winterton, Ann Hain, rh Mr. Peter Taylor, David Huhne, Chris Winterton, Sir Nicholas Hanson, rh Mr. David Thomas, Mr. Gareth Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Younger-Ross, Richard Harman, rh Ms Harriet Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Hurd, Mr. Nick Healey, rh John Touhig, rh Mr. Don Jack, rh Mr. Michael Tellers for the Noes: Hill, rh Keith Twigg, Derek Jackson, Mr. Stewart Angela Watkinson and Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Mr. Rob Wilson Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Watson, Mr. Tom Hope, Phil Watts, Mr. Dave Question accordingly agreed to. Hopkins, Kelvin Wills, rh Mr. Michael Howarth, rh Mr. George Wilson, Phil Hutton, rh Mr. John Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Jenkins, Mr. Brian Woolas, Mr. Phil Johnson, Ms Diana R. Wright, Mr. Anthony Jones, Mr. Kevan NORTH EAST REGIONAL GRAND COMMITTEE Wright, David Jones, Mr. Martyn Wright, Mr. Iain Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Jowell, rh Tessa Order No.117A(3)), Keeley, Barbara Tellers for the Ayes: Keen, Alan Helen Jones and That the North East Regional Grand Committee shall meet in Keen, Ann Kerry McCarthy Middlesbrough on Friday 25 September between 10.30 am and 1.30 pm to take questions under Standing Order No. 117B (Regional Grand Committees (questions for oral answer)) and to NOES hold a general debate on the regional economy: tackling the Afriyie, Adam Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James recession.—(Mr. Watts.) Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Beith, rh Sir Alan 1033 Business without Debate25 JUNE 2009 Business without Debate 1034

Bellingham, Mr. Henry Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Bayley, Hugh Lewis, Mr. Ivan Bone, Mr. Peter Lidington, Mr. David Begg, Miss Anne Lloyd, Tony Boswell, Mr. Tim Loughton, Tim Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Lucas, Ian Browne, Mr. Jeremy Luff, Peter Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Mackinlay, Andrew Burns, Mr. Simon Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Brennan, Kevin Mann, John Burrowes, Mr. David Maples, Mr. John Brown, Lyn Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Burstow, Mr. Paul Mates, rh Mr. Michael Browne, rh Des McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Burt, Alistair Maude, rh Mr. Francis Bryant, Chris McCabe, Steve Butterfill, Sir John McIntosh, Miss Anne Byers, rh Mr. Stephen McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Cable, Dr. Vincent McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Byrne, rh Mr. Liam McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Cash, Mr. William Murrison, Dr. Andrew Cairns, David McGovern, Mr. Jim Chope, Mr. Christopher Öpik, Lembit Clark, Paul Merron, Gillian Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Ottaway, Richard Coaker, Mr. Vernon Miliband, rh Edward Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Penning, Mike Cohen, Harry Moffatt, Laura Davies, Philip Penrose, John Cooper, Rosie Mole, Chris Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Randall, Mr. John Cooper, rh Yvette Morden, Jessica Duddridge, James Redwood, rh Mr. John Creagh, Mary Mudie, Mr. George Duncan, Alan Reid, Mr. Alan Cruddas, Jon Pearson, Ian Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Rennie, Willie Cryer, Mrs. Ann Pelling, Mr. Andrew Evennett, Mr. David Robertson, Mr. Laurence David, Mr. Wayne Pope, Mr. Greg Field, Mr. Mark Rosindell, Andrew Dismore, Mr. Andrew Pound, Stephen Foster, Mr. Don Russell, Bob Dobson, rh Frank Prentice, Mr. Gordon Francois, Mr. Mark Scott, Mr. Lee Doran, Mr. Frank Primarolo, rh Dawn Gauke, Mr. David Selous, Andrew Drew, Mr. David Purchase, Mr. Ken Gibb, Mr. Nick Soames, Mr. Nicholas Eagle, Angela Rammell, Bill Gidley, Sandra Spring, Mr. Richard Eagle, Maria Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Stanley, rh Sir John Efford, Clive Reid, rh John Grieve, Mr. Dominic Steen, Mr. Anthony Engel, Natascha Ruane, Chris Gummer, rh Mr. John Stuart, Mr. Graham Fitzpatrick, Jim Seabeck, Alison Hands, Mr. Greg Stunell, Andrew Follett, Barbara Sharma, Mr. Virendra Harper, Mr. Mark Swayne, Mr. Desmond Foster, Michael Jabez Sheridan, Jim Harris, Dr. Evan Swire, Mr. Hugo (Hastings and Rye) Skinner, Mr. Dennis Hayes, Mr. John Syms, Mr. Robert Gapes, Mike Slaughter, Mr. Andy Heath, Mr. David Turner, Mr. Andrew Gardiner, Barry Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Herbert, Nick Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Gerrard, Mr. Neil Soulsby, Sir Peter Hoban, Mr. Mark Vara, Mr. Shailesh Gilroy, Linda Spellar, rh Mr. John Hollobone, Mr. Philip Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Goodman, Helen Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Holmes, Paul Waterson, Mr. Nigel Griffith, Nia Stewart, Ian Horam, Mr. John Webb, Steve Grogan, Mr. John Straw, rh Mr. Jack Horwood, Martin Whittingdale, Mr. John Hain, rh Mr. Peter Stuart, Ms Gisela Howard, rh Mr. Michael Wiggin, Bill Hanson, rh Mr. David Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Howarth, David Willetts, Mr. David Harman, rh Ms Harriet Tami, Mark Huhne, Chris Willott, Jenny Healey, rh John Hill, rh Keith Taylor, David Hurd, Mr. Nick Winterton, Ann Jack, rh Mr. Michael Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Taylor, Dr. Richard Winterton, Sir Nicholas Jackson, Mr. Stewart Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Thomas, Mr. Gareth Younger-Ross, Richard Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Hope, Phil Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Keetch, Mr. Paul Tellers for the Noes: Hopkins, Kelvin Twigg, Derek Kirkbride, Miss Julie Angela Watkinson and Howarth, rh Mr. George Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Knight, rh Mr. Greg Mr. Rob Wilson Hutton, rh Mr. John Watson, Mr. Tom Jenkins, Mr. Brian Watts, Mr. Dave Question accordingly agreed to. Johnson, Ms Diana R. Wills, rh Mr. Michael Jones, Mr. Kevan Wilson, Phil Jones, Mr. Martyn Winterton, rh Ms Rosie WEST MIDLANDS REGIONAL GRAND Jowell, rh Tessa COMMITTEE Woolas, Mr. Phil Keeley, Barbara Wright, Mr. Anthony Keen, Alan Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Wright, David Keen, Ann Order No.117A(3)), Wright, Mr. Iain That the West Midlands Regional Grand Committee shall Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq meet in Sandwell on Thursday 8 October between 6.30 pm and Kidney, Mr. David Tellers for the Ayes: 9.00 pm to take questions under Standing Order No. 117B Lepper, David Helen Jones and (Regional Grand Committees (questions for oral answer)) and to Levitt, Tom Kerry McCarthy hold a general debate on the economy: building the West Midlands’ future.—(Mr. Watts.) NOES The House divided: Ayes 124, Noes 99. Afriyie, Adam Boswell, Mr. Tim Division No. 165] [5.32 pm Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Browne, Mr. Jeremy Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Burns, Mr. Simon AYES Baker, Norman Burrowes, Mr. David Anderson, Mr. David Baird, Vera Beith, rh Sir Alan Burstow, Mr. Paul Atkins, Charlotte Balls, rh Ed Bellingham, Mr. Henry Burt, Alistair Austin, Mr. Ian Battle, rh John Bone, Mr. Peter Butterfill, Sir John 1035 Business without Debate 25 JUNE 2009 1036

Cable, Dr. Vincent Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Traditional Crafts Cash, Mr. William Maples, Mr. John Chope, Mr. Christopher Mates, rh Mr. Michael Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Maude, rh Mr. Francis do now adjourn.—(Mr. Watts.) Cox, Mr. Geoffrey McIntosh, Miss Anne Davies, Philip McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick 5.44 pm Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Murrison, Dr. Andrew Duddridge, James Öpik, Lembit Tom Levitt (High Peak) (Lab): I know that Members Duncan, Alan Ottaway, Richard are anxious to get away and enjoy the lovely evening, so Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Penning, Mike I will not delay us any longer than necessary. However, I Evennett, Mr. David Penrose, John do believe that traditional crafts in this country have Field, Mr. Mark Randall, Mr. John had very little air time, so to speak, on the Floor of the Foster, Mr. Don Reid, Mr. Alan House, and I would like to try to put that right. Francois, Mr. Mark Rennie, Willie Outside the workshop of Mike Turnock, who lives in Gauke, Mr. David Robertson, Mr. Laurence Whaley Bridge in my constituency, there is a shelter that Gibb, Mr. Nick Rosindell, Andrew Gidley, Sandra is evidently home to a community of toads. That is not Russell, Bob the purpose of the shelter, however. It is also where Goodman, Mr. Paul Scott, Mr. Lee Grieve, Mr. Dominic Mike keeps his pieces of 5 ft long, 4-by-4 beech wood—the Selous, Andrew Gummer, rh Mr. John raw material for his family business, which he inherited Soames, Mr. Nicholas Hands, Mr. Greg from his father. Mike takes the beech and, using a band Spring, Mr. Richard Harper, Mr. Mark saw, cuts it into strips of about 5 mm thick. He chamfers Stanley, rh Sir John Harris, Dr. Evan each end of the strip and places it into a steam bath. Stuart, Mr. Graham Hayes, Mr. John This homemade device, powered by the electric elements Stunell, Andrew Heath, Mr. David from four kettles, makes the beech supple and mouldable. Swayne, Mr. Desmond Herbert, Nick Once the beech has been steamed and dried, he bends it Hoban, Mr. Mark Swinson, Jo Swire, Mr. Hugo around a jig built to his exact requirements so that the Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas ends of the strip overlap significantly. The ends are then Hollobone, Mr. Philip Syms, Mr. Robert Holmes, Paul Turner, Mr. Andrew nailed into position in an adept and professional manner, Horam, Mr. John Tyrie, Mr. Andrew using nails of exactly the right length, and the base of a Horwood, Martin Vara, Mr. Shailesh garden sieve or riddle has been created. He then drills Howard, rh Mr. Michael Villiers, Mrs. Theresa the requisite number of holes around the entire perimeter Howarth, David Waterson, Mr. Nigel of the riddle, half in a horizontal plane and half Huhne, Chris Whittingdale, Mr. John perpendicular. These are the basis for the weaving of Hurd, Mr. Nick Wiggin, Bill the sieve itself from steel wire. By the time the web has Jack, rh Mr. Michael Willetts, Mr. David been created, assisted again by custom-made tools, Jackson, Mr. Stewart Willott, Jenny everything has been finished off safely with no projecting Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Winterton, Ann ends and a rim has been placed around the outside of Keetch, Mr. Paul Winterton, Sir Nicholas the sieve, it has taken him an hour’s work. Kirkbride, Miss Julie Younger-Ross, Richard Lait, Mrs. Jacqui What Mike has created is a common or garden soil Lidington, Mr. David Tellers for the Noes: sieve, the like of which may be found in garden centres Loughton, Tim Angela Watkinson and up and down the country. These are beautiful objects: Luff, Peter Mr. Rob Wilson they are rugged, good to hold, efficient and long lasting, and just so much nicer than the plastic equivalents that Question accordingly agreed to. so many gardeners use today. In his father’s day there would have been three or four men working in this PETITION workshop, and two or three similar workshops not too School Transport (Hertfordshire) far away, but not today. The garden sieve is not the only type of sieve that 5.43 pm Mike Turnock makes. He makes larger ones and smaller Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): It is a great ones, ones with larger meshes and with finer meshes, pleasure to present the following petition on behalf of and ones designed for separating cockles or shrimps the residents of the beautiful village of Little Gaddesden from seawater or even rivets from sand in the Sheffield in my constituency concerning the school bus service casting industry. The finest grade sieves are actually from Little Gaddesden to Tring. easier to make because the smaller mesh is bought in The petition states: ready made from China. The finest food grade sieves The Petition of residents of Little Gaddesden, Hertfordshire, also have their own demands from industry. and others, I must declare an interest: my mother is now the Declares that residents of the village are deeply unsatisfied proud owner of a garden sieve that Mike gave to me on with the current allocation of free school transport from the village of Little Gaddesden to Tring school; further declares that the occasion of my visit to his workshop. Hon. Members the treatment of children living in the Little Gaddesden pupil may purchase their own from certain garden centres, catchment area for Tring school is unfair and divisive. although the supply is far less than potential demand, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons as Mike is the only person left in the country making urges the Government to rectify the situation and provide free these handmade sieves as far as I know. He only supplies school transport for all pupils regardless of the location of their garden centres in two regions of England. home within the village When Mike took on the business from his father, it And the Petitioners remain, etc. was a going concern. It still is today: he is making a [P000383] living and evidently loving it. After a few lean years 1037 Traditional Crafts25 JUNE 2009 Traditional Crafts 1038

[Tom Levitt] of lime mortar, stone roofing, thatching and stone walling. The National Trust, English Heritage and the caused by illness, he is now back in full production Heritage Lottery Fund have even created apprenticeships again. But Mike is 64. He and his wife are now looking to ensure that those skills are retained so that their to retirement and there is no one left to carry on this precious buildings can be conserved. I do not use the business, despite the potential that exists for increasing word “precious”pejoratively. They are precious buildings, sales. and those skills need to be preserved to ensure that such The same is true just down the road in Sheffield at the buildings can be maintained in the best possible condition. last handmade scissor makers in the country. Other However, it is the other crafts—those that deal with craft skills are in equally short supply, which is ironic at useful tools that man has evolved over 1,000 years—that a time when premium products such as these can sell on I am interested in today. the basis of their quality and command a good price. Outside the field of construction, support for such Perhaps fortunes cannot be made, but livings certainly crafts is not what it could be, which is why people such could be made from an expansion of these industries. as Mike Turnock cannot find the funding to take on an Indeed, figures produced by the Department for Culture, apprentice or someone to learn the trade and work with Media and Sport actually support what I am saying: him long enough to take over his potentially flourishing there are 157,400 registered creative businesses in this business and expand it in the future, retaining his wonderful country, and they have growth rates faster than the craftsmanship in our community. economy as a whole. The Crafts Council recently launched We all know someone called Smith, Turner, Potter, its “Crafts Blueprint” for creative industries, and said: Fletcher, Barker, Cartwright or even Thatcher. Those “New research undertaken by Creative & Cultural Skills has were the names originally given to those people who identified that craft generates almost £3 billion to the UK economy founded the crafts heritage in this country. In 2006 the each year making it the fourth biggest sector”— UNESCO convention stated: within the creative industries— “Any efforts to safeguard traditional craftsmanship must focus “after design, performing arts and music…Given that over 80% not on preserving craft objects—no matter how beautiful, precious, of the sector comprises small businesses employing 1-5 people, rare or important they might be—but on creating conditions that improving skills is essential to ensure this growth continues in the will encourage artisans to continue to produce crafts of all kinds, coming years.” and to transmit their skills and knowledge to others, especially younger members of their communities.” It went on: The goal of the UNESCO convention is to safeguard “The craft sector has one of the highest employment growth rates (11 per cent.) in the creative and cultural industries (according traditional craftsmanship by supporting the continuing to DCMS between the years 1997-2006) and the demand for craft transmission of knowledge and skills associated with skills has never been higher. Expanding entry routes into the traditional artisans, to ensure that crafts continue to be sector, diversifying the workforce and enhancing leadership and practised in their communities, providing livelihoods to professional development are some of the main recommendations their makers and reflecting creativity and adaptation. in the Blueprint.” May I ask my hon. Friend the Minister why, when 107 In the same press release, Rosy Greenlees, executive countries from Albania and Algeria through to Zambia director of the Crafts Council, said: and Zimbabwe have seen fit to sign up to the convention, “The Crafts Council is committed to making the UK the best effectively making intangible cultural heritage part of place to make, see and collect contemporary craft.” their cultural policy, the UK is not one of those countries? Why did she refer to contemporary craft? It would be I want to turn for a moment to the Heritage Lottery wrong to exclude the traditional crafts that organisations Fund. It recently announced that 10 projects would such as the Heritage Crafts Association seek to conserve. benefit from a £7 million training bursary scheme. The The craftspeople concerned include the sieve maker, the projects involve archaeology, transport heritage, rake maker, the handmade cutlery maker and others. conservation volunteers, reed and sedge cutting and They do not necessarily make objects of beauty or of other schemes to help conserve things that are already stunning magnificence, which seems to be the focus of there. It is very difficult to find examples of Government the craft-based media, but functional, traditional objects or lottery funding being used to create things from that require just as much skill to make as well as scratch or regenerate the skills that, like sieve making, requiring a true sense of heritage and basic human are in danger of being lost. purpose. The arts media and crafts media seem fixated In High Peak, I have not only that last sieve maker on the idea of arts and crafts, and on linking the two but Robin Wood, who tells me that he is the last together. I want to make the distinction. I have nothing professional pole-lathe bowl turner in the country. Both against arts—not at all—but they should not subsume crafts have been established for more than 1,000 years, the crafts in that definition. but it is difficult to see how they will survive even one The Heritage Crafts Association was set up by, among more generation. The Crafts Council has recognised others, my constituent Robin Wood, a pole-lathe bowl this problem, and I have referred already to the blueprint turner. The organisation believes that recognising the that it produced with Creative and Cultural Skills, living heritage of skills offers great opportunities for which was launched recently in the other place. In it, the education, community involvement and jobs and can council points out that many of the craftspeople involved even play a significant role in the tourism industry. in cottage industries are elderly and without successors However, what do the Craft Council and DCMS mean to whom they can pass on their skills. In addition, many by the creative industries? Generally speaking, they are sole traders, with little incentive to take on an mean the arts, the media and culture. They mean the apprentice without external funding. conservation of buildings, artefacts and historical traditions. Many of these traditional skills are often referred to They even include—I very much welcome this—traditional as “rural”, but in fact they are urban as well. An skills related to the building trade, such as the production example of that is the scissor makers of Sheffield, to 1039 Traditional Crafts25 JUNE 2009 Traditional Crafts 1040 whom I have referred and on whose behalf my right wants to take over his business, despite the efforts of hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Central (Mr. Caborn) Mr. Robin Wood, who has done a great deal to popularise has campaigned. crafts and to make everyone, including the Government, It seems that only once these crafts are dead do they aware of their situation. come under the remit of the heritage industry, as their However, Mr. Turnock’s story is, unfortunately, all products find their ways into museum displays and too familiar. Mechanisation and new materials have people take pride in their conservation and celebrate taken over the labour-intensive and time-consuming their memory. Why can we not give the same attention processes required to make one particular type of tool to the ailing small industries that create these iconic by hand. In fact, estimates made in 2004 suggested that, objects? Are not the skills as worthy of conservation as along with Mr. Turnock’s, only six businesses in England the products that they create? We assess the relative still make that sort of craft product—three horse collar importance of protecting, preserving and finding new makers, two besom broom producers and one oak spale life for older buildings that we see as part of our basket maker. I think that my hon. Friend mentioned heritage: why should we not take a similar approach to another maker, and I shall get that product from him heritage craft skills, and allocate a budget to do so? after the debate. I know that the Department for Culture, Media and The picture is not much brighter even among better Sport has rightly welcomed the Government’s known crafts such as thatching, saddling or timber announcement of the £1.1 billion future jobs fund, and framing, where the number of people employed totals the positive impact it will have in the field. I know that, little more than 1,000. If as Mr. Turnock and others among other things, the fund will pay for 5,000 insist, craft products are in high demand, all that is apprenticeships in the creative industries. I know that missing are trainees or apprentices willing to take up the wider creative industries are a huge source—and placements in craft-based firms— potential future source—of income for this country, as well as generators of employment. I also know that helping a single-person business to keep going from one 6pm generation to the next is not the sexiest part of the Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)), DCMS agenda, but it is vital. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Making garden sieves is not going to bring this do now adjourn.—(Mr. Watts.) country out of recession, but it is a part of our tradition and it ought to have a future. I hope that my hon. Barbara Follett: My hon. Friend the Member for Friend the Minister will tell us exactly how she will High Peak outlined some of the Government schemes support the forgotten parts of the world of creative to help single-person businesses, such as Mr. Turnock’s, industries in the future. to attract and keep apprentices. For once—unusually— The responsibilities of DCMS include sport as well funding is not the problem. There is funding around, as culture, and I am sure that the Minister will not need and there are a lot of courses; what we lack are people to ask the Minister for sport, my hon. Friend the of any age who want to take up placements or Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Sutcliffe), about apprenticeships in craft firms such as the one Mr. Turnock where some of the nicknames that we give to our runs. football clubs have come from. However, let me remind There are obviously many reasons for that situation. her of the Blades in Sheffield, the Cobblers in Northampton, Sometimes, it is down to young people not being able to the Saddlers in Walsall, the Hatters in Luton and the see a clear career path. Sometimes, it is because a Silkmen just across the hills from me in Macclesfield. person does not want to be a sole trader, or part of a I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will take up small business. Sometimes, it is because younger people the spirit of the UNESCO convention that I mentioned. want to experience the bright lights of the cities, and I ask her to put on record not whether she will be craft trades tend to be in rural areas. Sometimes, it is backing to the hilt these small businesses in the creative just because people do not know that the opportunities field, but how she will do so. and jobs exist, which is one of the areas where the Government can help—locally, regionally and centrally. Overall, not many craftspeople have the time, or even 5.57 pm the finance, to advertise what they do and to attract The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, apprentices. It is a Catch-22 situation. Both the Government Media and Sport (Barbara Follett): First, may I congratulate and the sector are very aware of the problems. This my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Tom Levitt) month, Creative and Cultural Skills published a crafts on securing this debate about one of Britain’s lesser blueprint, to accompany and amplify the cultural heritage known but still extremely important craft skills? As blueprint, which is a work force development plan some hon. Members may know, no serious gardener, designed to improve participation in the traditional anxious to keep his or her soil in good tilth, would be skills sector. The success of recent television shows such without a good quality riddle—and, as my hon. Friend as “Victorian Farm”, as well as the 20-year waiting list has made clear, should they be in need of one, for allotments in some areas, indicate real popular his constituent Michael Turnock is just the man to interest in sustainable traditional practices, which could supply it. lead to an appreciation of the time and care taken to Mr. Turnock and his one-man riddle-making business produce quality hand-made items such as Mr. Turnock’s in Whaley Bridge are well known locally for their high- riddles. quality products. His skills have also attracted national The UK is blessed with an extraordinarily wide variety interest, and that makes it all the more sad and surprising of traditions and crafts. Coupled with increasing awareness that, so far, Mr. Turnock has failed to find anyone who of the economic, social and environmental impact of 1041 Traditional Crafts25 JUNE 2009 Traditional Crafts 1042

[Barbara Follett] group to address some of the shortage in traditional building craft skills. It is also why it has just signed a our current life styles on the health of our planet, there memorandum of understanding with the all-party arts has been a resurgence of interest in traditional crafts and heritage group on maintaining standards and best and practice. We are seeing a revival of traditional practice in the built heritage sector. crafts such as carpentry, knitting, crocheting, quilting I am glad that Arts Council England is also involved. and tatting, as well as an increase in the number of craft It will spend more than £6 million this year alone on magazines and programmes. New technology makes organisations involved in contemporary or heritage crafts, some crafts easier and opens up a new and much wider including by giving funding of £2.8 million to the Crafts market for quality hand-made products made by people Council to lead on contemporary crafts. such as Mr. Turnock. My hon. Friend talked about an international convention The Crafts Council supports Mr. Turnock’s work, on crafts. I believe that he was referring to the 2003 and the work of all the other people in the sector. The convention for the safeguarding of the intangible cultural council organises events to showcase crafts. English heritage. The Government have no plans to ratify the Heritage helps to fund the very popular heritage open convention, but we are supportive of its aims and spirit. days and festivals of archaeology, which as well as We are keen that the rich intangible cultural heritage of opening up buildings to the public also promote traditional the United Kingdom is properly valued and, when crafts and activities. necessary, preserved. However, we are wary of legislating Crafts, as a skill, fall under several central Government on such a sensitive matter as culture, especially in an Departments. The Department for Communities and area such as intangible heritage which, by its very Local Government is very keen on them because it nature, is difficult to define. Ratifying the convention believes that maintaining traditional skills in a community and setting out strict definitions of what our intangible helps to define and shape local identity. It knows that a cultural heritage is, and might be, could be constricting shortage of skilled people can hold up planning applications and controversial. For example, there are issues surrounding for historical buildings. The Commission for Architecture languages and dialects in the devolved Administrations and the Built Environment published its “Skills to and in Cornwall. grow” report in partnership with 15 national bodies, Whether tangible or intangible, however, our heritage including Lantra, which is the sector skills council for is a marvellous asset that we want to protect and the land-based sector that focuses on horticultural green- nurture. As a Regional Minister, I see a role for the space skills. regional development agencies and local authorities. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills They need to play their part, along with central Government is responsible for sector skills councils such as CABE. It and non-departmental bodies, in ensuring that our provides a great deal of support for small businesses traditional skills are upheld and preserved. that are involved in craft areas. The Department for We do not want to preserve things for their own sake; Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and its agencies, we want to preserve them because of what they add to Natural England and the Forestry Commission, are our country and to what it has to offer. As Minister supporting traditional skills through their rural development with responsibility for tourism, I know how much that programme. My Department, through its non-departmental offer is worth to our economy every year. I also know public bodies and the lottery, shares those common how important it is to get people involved. My hon. interests and backs the projects. For example, the Heritage Friend may or may not have heard of the recent Lottery Fund has awarded more than £446 million to phenomenon of yarn bombing: think Banksy meets the 1,300 projects that have delivered heritage skills training women’s institute. It is guerrilla knitting in the public in not only blacksmithing, textiles and paper conservation, realm. Its legality is still uncertain, but its creativity is but traditional building skills, such as using lime mortar not. It is a wonderful example of a centuries-old tradition and dry-stone walling. Its £7 million bursary programme being made relevant for today. I hope that we can offer for on-the-job training in 10 areas in which it has found an opportunity to uphold the heritage that men like evidence of a shortage of crafts has helped to train new Mr. Turnock have preserved for us, and can make that masons, hedge layers and millwrights. heritage relevant and accessible to everybody. My hon. Friend will be aware that English Heritage Question put and agreed to. published the second “Heritage at Risk” report yesterday. Its finding confirmed the need for such skills locally and regionally. That is why English Heritage has been working 6.10 pm with ConstructionSkills and the national heritage training House adjourned. 307WH 25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 308WH

lines. One of the purposes of our inquiry was to ascertain Westminster Hall the extent of agreement on the really big issues in the Bill of Rights debate. Two years after the start of our inquiry, I believe that Thursday 25 June 2009 there is now a greater understanding of those issues, and sufficient consensus at least about the most important questions to move on to the crucial next stage of a [MISS ANNE BEGG in the Chair] focused public consultation conducted by an independent committee with a view to making recommendations to Bill of Rights (UK) the Government. I hope that will happen early in 2010. I shall focus on some of the key themes of our report, [Relevant Documents: A Bill of Rights for the UK: including what sort of Bill of Rights the UK needs; Twenty-ninth Report from the Joint Committee on Human whether social and economic rights should be included; Rights, Session 2007-08, HC 150-I, and the Government how a Bill of Rights complements, and is essential to, response, HC145, Session 2008-09.] democratic renewal and public service reform; and whether Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting there is any place for responsibilities or duties. I shall be now adjourned.—(Helen Jones.) also explain why it is important that the debate proceeds from the premise that any new Bill of Rights must supplement, and not take away from, the protection 2.30 pm already afforded to human rights by the Human Rights Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): It is perhaps Act 1998. surprising that this is the first opportunity that the The purpose of Bills of Rights in history, such as House has had to debate the question of a Bill of Magna Carta in 1215, France’s Declaration of the Rights, bearing in mind that it has been under consideration Rights of Man in 1789, and the American Bill of for the best part of two and a half years. Rights of 1791, was to protect the individual’s liberty There is no doubt that constitutional renewal is back against the intrusive power of the overbearing state. on the political agenda. In his recent statement to the Liberty was conceived only in the negative: an absence House on democratic reform, the Prime Minister said of restraint. In the middle of the 20th century, however, that conceptions of liberty and human rights began to change. “setting out the rights that people can expect as a British citizen, President Roosevelt, whose interventionist new deal but also the responsibilities that come with those rights, is a rescued the US from the great depression, redefined fundamental step in balancing power between Government, those concepts with his “four freedoms”, to include not Parliament and the people.”—[Official Report, 10 June 2009; merely the absence of restraint, and freedom of speech Vol. 493, c. 798.] and religion, but an absence of want and fear. Liberty It is one of the five major issues on which the Prime in that conception included the right to economic security, Minister said the Government will set out proposals for which was reflected in the preamble to the universal debate and reform over the coming weeks. The question declaration of human rights. whether there should be a Bill of Rights for the UK, Debates about Bills of Rights have too often been which many thought had been quietly forgotten, could hobbled by the assumption that there is an irreconcilable therefore become important in the run up to the election. conflict between those two human rights traditions. In The debate should not be dominated by dusty old our report, however, we recommend that in our modern experts on the constitution or policy wonks fresh from parliamentary democracy, a Bill of Rights should seek think-tanks. The issue is central to many of the most to combine them. The Bill needs to reflect the values important challenges of our time: how to protect people that are so much part of our national identity: the rule against the insecurity caused by the worst global recession of law, with power exercised lawfully, with the oversight since the 1930s; how to restore the public’s confidence of an independent judiciary; liberty, meaning freedom in democratic politics; and how to make public services from restrictions; democracy, which gives people control more responsive to the people that they serve. over the decisions that affect our lives; fairness, meaning The Joint Committee on Human Rights began our that equal rights are to be treated with dignity and inquiry into the question of a Bill of Rights in May respect; and civic duty, to reflect our broader responsibilities 2007, against the background of an unprecedented to each other and our communities. consensus between the major political parties about the Of course, any modern Bill of Rights must also need for a British Bill of Rights. That consensus reflected include those long standing rights that we in the UK a wider view among the public, which was revealed regard as our birthright: the right not to have our consistently in opinion polls such as the Rowntree “State homes entered or be subjected to intrusive surveillance of the Nation” poll, which showed a strong majority in without proper justification and effective safeguards favour. against intrusion into our privacy; the right to peaceful There is much less consensus on why a new Bill of protest and to freedom of expression; and the right to Rights is needed, and no consensus at all on what rights jury trial for those accused of serious crimes, although should be included, or on how it should affect the that is not a tradition in Scotland. existing balance of power between Government, the Other UK rights have emerged more recently. They courts, Parliament and the people. Under my chairmanship, include administrative justice, which ensures that decisions the JCHR has sought to build a greater understanding taken by those in authority are fair and impartial. If about human rights, both in the House and more necessary, that can be backed by the right to review by importantly, among the wider public, drawing on the the courts. Data protection, freedom of information potential of discourse to transcend party political dividing and equality rights have also emerged. The Equality Bill 309WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 310WH

[Mr. Andrew Dismore] should include social and economic rights. The Government have shown that they have a very open mind on that. strengthens that last right, but it does not include an They have moved considerably from their initial position overarching constitutional guarantee of equality. I expect of scepticism in the 2007 “Governance of Britain” that we will have more to say on that during our Green Paper. They showed a distinct lack of imagination scrutiny of the Bill. in the paper, dismissing the inclusion of social and The JCHR has been second to none in defending economic rights out of hand, on the ground that it both traditional, ancient rights and newer modern liberties “would involve a significant shift from Parliament to the judiciary against unjustifiable interferences. It almost goes without in making decisions about public spending and, at least implicitly, saying that any UK Bill of Rights should include them levels of taxation”. in its catalogue of fundamental rights. The Prime Minister himself helpfully intervened in However, a modern Bill of Rights should also include the debate. He acknowledged the modern reality that protection for those rights that our society regards as rights such as the right to health are now considered to equally important, such as rights to health, housing, be fundamental by the public and that they are regarded education and an adequate standard of living. Civil and as one of the defining features of the country. He said political rights are obviously fundamental, but they are that the real question was not whether they are properly pretty meaningless to those facing destitution, homelessness, to be regarded as fundamental rights, but rather whether, chronic ill health or a lack of education. When my or to what extent, they should be legally enforceable. constituents complain to me in my advice surgery about Since that time, the Government’s position has continued their human rights being infringed and thump the table, to evolve. In evidence to our inquiry, the Government it is usually about their health care, housing, education accepted that a range of options could be pursued, or benefits, all of which are not currently recognised in from fully justiciable and legally enforceable social and our law as relevant human rights at all, but which economic rights at the one extreme, to purely declaratory people think are so recognised. An Englishman’s home principles, of purely symbolic rather than legal effect, at may be his castle, but that cannot be so for those with the other. In our report, we freely acknowledge the no home or no secure home in the first place. Education difficulties of including rights such as health and education underpins freedom of expression, but the right to vote in a UK Bill of Rights and reflect especially on the is not uppermost in the mind of the destitute person extent to which the courts could and should make who sleeps in an office block doorway, who might be decisions about issues normally determined by politicians. subject to police harassment. We therefore developed and now advocate an approach Such rights are expected by the population, too. The that we believe counters those problems. Joseph Rowntree 2006 “State of the Nation” report said We propose placing a duty on Government to make that 88 per cent. thought the right to NHS hospital progress towards realising rights to education, health, treatment within a reasonable time should be included housing and an adequate standard of living, and to in a Bill of Rights. On a par with that, 89 per cent. report that progress to Parliament. Although we recommend thought that the right to trial by jury should be included that individuals should not be able to enforce those and 65 per cent. thought that the right of the homeless rights directly through the courts, we believe that the to be housed should also be included. courts should have a limited role in reviewing the The Convention on Modern Liberty, to which I was reasonableness of the measures taken by Government, pleased to speak in February this year, has done an a role closely circumscribed by the express spelling out excellent job in raising public awareness of the need to of the considerations to be taken into account when protect the vital traditional liberties that I have described assessing the reasonableness of the measures taken. We and the others set out in our report, but that is only half suggest a series of such conditions in the report. the story. A modern Bill of Rights must provide such Courts should also be able to take social and economic protection but, equally, it cannot confine itself to purely rights into account when relevant to the interpretation libertarian concerns if it is to be relevant to our 21st century of other legislation or common law. Of course, if society and all our citizens, from the Duke and his heirs interpretation clearly points one way, those rights would with the landed estate and stately home to the desperate not be relevant, but if an argument were evenly or lone parent in her housing estate flat. closely balanced, giving effect to the bill of rights could The human rights obligations of today require the be seen as a tie breaker. Parenthetically, I should say state to take action to protect human rights, whether that, generally—not just in the context of social and that means providing public services such as health and economic rights but for all the other civil and political education, protecting against the insecurity of destitution rights too—we believe that the Bill should have a strong by providing welfare benefits, or protecting the vulnerable interpretive clause requiring any body interpreting it to against the powerful, including those with private power. strive to achieve its purpose and give practical effect to The Prime Minister went a long way towards accepting the fundamental values underpinning it. that in principle when he acknowledged the indivisibility We have been encouraged by both the Government’s of civil and political rights and social and economic response to that section of our report and the prominence rights in his speech to the Equality and Human Rights of social and economic rights in the Government’s Commission on the occasion of the 60th anniversary of “Rights and Responsibilities” Green Paper. The the universal declaration on human rights. We therefore Government now appear to recognise the force of the set out in our report an outline illustrative draft that case for developing domestic formulations of economic contains both civil and political rights, and social and and social rights and to accept that there might be ways economic rights, which are two sides of the same coin. of recognising rights, including social and economic I welcome the Government’s constructive engagement rights, that already exist but are not currently enunciated with the issue of whether and how a UK Bill of Rights as rights in UK law. 311WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 312WH

In the non-justiciable NHS constitution and the recently granted only as a matter of last resort. A new pre-action published Child Poverty Bill, the Government have protocol on seeking possession based on mortgage arrears gone further and provided a fascinating test case of how came into force on 19 November 2008. In the meantime, to provide a legally binding framework for the progressive however, the High Court ruled in October 2008 in the realisation of social and economic rights in the campaign case of Horsham Properties v. Clark that lenders are against child poverty. As South African Justice Albie entitled to sell properties over the head of the home Sachs, that world renowned defender of democracy, owner, without having to go to court, after a single freedom and equality told us during our inquiry, a default on a mortgage payment. After just one missed country that does not include social and economic instalment, the new purchaser/owner of the property is rights in some form in its Bill of Rights is a country that entitled to a possession order against the borrower, who has given up on aspiration. is now seen in law as a mere trespasser in the home that As an illustration, the Child Poverty Bill concerns the the law says they no longer own. progressive realisation of the child’s right to an adequate The pre-action protocol can therefore be circumvented standard of living as enshrined in article 27 of the UN far too easily by lenders invoking their power to sell the convention on the rights of the child and imposes an property without having to go to court. The FSA and absolute duty on the Secretary of State to achieve CML have reported that UK sub-prime lenders have certain targets by 2020. The duty is unqualified by been taking an increasingly aggressive approach to reference to resources or budgetary considerations, nor repossessions and predict that the trend is likely only to is there any power in the Bill to amend the target. There increase in the light of economic conditions. is a separate duty to have a strategy to achieve those In our report, the Committee recommends that the targets. Although that duty is qualified by the requirement right to housing is one social right that should be that the Secretary of State must have regard to economic protected in any UK bill of rights. We suggested in our and fiscal circumstances, the duty to meet the targets draft outline bill of rights the inclusion of a provision themselves remains unqualified. to the effect that The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my “No one may be evicted from their home without an order of a right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract and Castleford court.” (Yvette Cooper) made it clear on the Bill’s introduction, If the UK had a Bill of Rights that included such a and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, my right provision, it would no longer be open to the courts to hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Mr. Timms) interpret the law so as to allow lenders to realise their confirmed in evidence to the Select Committee on Work security by selling people’s homes without first obtaining and Pensions on 17 June that a Government that failed at least a court’s approval and convincing a judge that to show how it was taking steps to achieve the targets such a drastic step is proportionate in all the circumstances. could be subject to judicial review. The only way for a future Government to avoid that consequence would be In the meantime, I have tabled a private Member’s to repeal the Act. The Bill is a bold piece of legislation Bill under the ten-minute rule designed to give borrowers giving binding legal effect to an important social right, at risk of repossession at least some basic protection and it demonstrates how far the Government have come from such sales by unscrupulous lenders by guaranteeing from their original opposition in principle to the inclusion everyone’s human right not to be thrown out of their of social and economic rights in a UK Bill of Rights. I home without a court order. That would not mean that note that some of the provisions in the Equality Bill people who default could stay in their homes indefinitely, relating to social and economic inequality can be taken but it would mean at least some fairness and due into account when public bodies set their strategic process before a lender can literally take the roof from plans. Again, those strategic plans could be subject to over people’s heads. The Bill is due for Second Reading judicial review if it is demonstrated that the body in tomorrow. Perhaps Front-Bench Members could indicate question should have taken social and economic inequalities their support in principle for it and the vital protections into account but did not. that it would provide. In our report, we argued that protecting social and economic rights would make a practical difference to Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): How the lives of ordinary people. The severe economic downturn does the hon. Gentleman envisage that the statement of since the publication of the Committee’s report provides the right to housing would be applied by the courts in a additional examples of how. Home repossessions are situation where a family was breaking up and the two one example. The number of home repossessions due to partners were arguing who should have custody of the default on mortgage repayments has increased dramatically children and who therefore needed the house? Would in recent months. According to the Council of Mortgage they both have a right to housing such that a public Lenders, some 45,000 homes were expected to have authority would immediately have to provide them with been repossessed by the end of 2008, and the number of another house? people in mortgage arrears rose to 168,000. Its current year estimate for repossessions is 65,000, even after a Mr. Dismore: I certainly would not go that far. We downward reassessment and including the measures can take examples from what is happening in South taken by the Government to help home owners in this Africa in cases involving the right to housing. It has challenging economic climate. been found that if one wanted to jump the housing The Financial Services Authority and CML report queue there, it simply would not work that way. South that more than 1 million households are likely to default Africa has done a magnificent job—it has built some on a mortgage payment over the next year. On 22 3 million homes since the end of the apartheid era—but October 2008, the Prime Minister announced new guidance it still has a huge waiting list. It would not work in that to county court judges to ensure that repossession is context. 313WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 314WH

[Mr. Dismore] the police and the duty to obey the law, may have a place in a Bill of Rights. The JCHR strongly disagrees However, another housing case involved people who with that approach. It comes across as bossy and had been left destitute and were living in a field, having authoritarian, and it is pretty meaningless. There would been thrown off their land. I cannot remember the be no value added. Nevertheless, references to exact name of the case—it begins with B—but it will responsibilities in a Bill of Rights would be unobjectionable, probably come back to me later. In that case, the court to the extent that they acknowledge responsibilities that said that the state was required to give those people, are implicit in human rights law and that the powerful— who were living in a field with no shelter at all, at least including private power—may have responsibilities not minimum basic protection against the weather. In that to interfere with the human rights of others. case, a sensible decision was taken by the South African We are currently conducting an inquiry into business courts to suggest that there should be a certain minimum and human rights. It is widely recognised that businesses, level of protection against destitution. as powerful private entities with the ability to affect people’s human rights in many ways, have a responsibility David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD): That is an interesting to respect those rights. Indeed, that is recognised in the example. It raises a question that I was going to raise widely accepted international framework dealing with later about social and economic rights. According to business and human rights. Although I do not want to the human rights standards under which we operate, pre-empt our report on human rights and business, the there is a right not to be left in destitution. Does the report we are considering deals with the Bill of Rights hon. Gentleman see things such as the right to housing and private parties. That has become known as the as simply examples of that—an operationalisation of question of horizontality in the Bill’s application. We that right—or does he see them as going further than agree that a Bill of Rights should not give free-standing the right not to be left in destitution? causes of action to individuals against other private parties, for a breach of their fundamental rights. However, Mr. Dismore: I am not entirely sure that we actually I would like to raise some key points. have a right not to be destitute, as a starting point. As First, the delivery of public services by private companies, far as human rights are concerned, it is a social and either through privatisation or contracting out, has economic right. I suppose that we could draw those been thrown into confusion by the YL case in the rights as principles from other parts of existing legislation: House of Lords. I will not discuss the issues arising for example, one of the Local Government Acts deals from that case at length because they are well rehearsed. particularly with the question of destitution. However, When the Human Rights Act 1998 was passed, it was there is no overarching right. There is a duty on the intended that privatised services would be covered. We local authority to ensure that people in the area are not have since seen sticking-plaster amendments to bring destitute, but I do not think it has the mirror-image care homes within its protection, but its application to effect of giving the individual a right in that respect. other services remains unclear. That has led to interminable correspondence on behalf of the Select Committee We recommend that a right against destitution be enshrined between me and Departments, and yet another of my in the Bill of Rights. It could operate through affecting private Member’s Bills, which is scheduled for Second the interpretation of social security law. If there is a Reading next week on 3 July and will try to clarify the strong interpretation clause in the Bill of Rights, social position. security bodies would have to make decisions in the context of that clause. I have given the housing example This issue must be resolved in a comprehensive way; of people not being evicted without the order of a not on a hit-and-miss, case-by-case basis. When the court. That could be called a procedural right, but I debate kicked off after the YL decision, I understand think that it is rather more than that. that the Government’s position was that it would be dealt with as part of the Bill of Rights debate. I now In the circumstances that the right hon. Member for understand that it has been shelved and may be considered Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) put to me, a through a separate consultation. Will the Minister say court clearly would be involved in making the decisions. exactly where we are with the YL issue? It is pressing That is not to say that there is an absolute right to because another case concerning privatised prison services, housing, but that one cannot be deprived of housing which I cannot go into, is due to be tried before the without a court decision. That is the point that I made courts very soon. We recommend that the Bill of Rights in relation to repossession. I am not saying that if our should make it clear that when public services are proposal was accepted people’s houses could not be delivered by a private body, that must be done in a repossessed, but that they could not be repossessed non-discriminatory way. without the consideration of a court. Because of the Secondly, an aspect of growing importance is that the Horsham Properties case, all the machinery that is there state may rightly be expected to provide protection for to protect people can currently be circumvented. the rights of one private party against another. An I shall move on to the issue of responsibilities, which example is the old and valued right I referred to earlier is another key battleground in the debate. Our report of security in the home against intrusion. Is it right that was strongly opposed to a Bill of Rights being called a certain private internet operators can put on their websites Bill of rights and responsibilities. We did not see the detailed films and photos of our homes, back gardens purpose of articulating explicitly in a Bill of Rights and activities taken from space? We may well address responsibilities as general as the responsibility to obey that issue in detail in our forthcoming business and the law. However, in the Green Paper, the Government human rights report. continue to pursue the curious suggestion that various Thirdly, the right to a healthy and sustainable legal and moral duties, such as the duty to ensure that environment—a so-called third generation right—has your child attends school, the duty to co-operate with developed into a right capable of legal expression. We 315WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 316WH recommend it as a candidate for inclusion in the Bill. this issue my hon. Friend and the right hon. Member That right could well demonstrate the need for similar, for Berwick-upon-Tweed are wrong. We have been engaged indirect mechanisms for the protection of individuals with the devolved Administrations for a considerable by the state against private polluters. Although we do period. I am not sure why my hon. Friend got the not support a direct horizontal cause of action, we impression he did, but it was a wrong impression. We believe that indirect effect could be given through requiring are actively engaged and will continue to be so. interpretation by the courts of legislation or common law in a way that is compatible with the Bill of Rights. Mr. Dismore: I was given that impression by the The courts should be included as one of the bodies Scottish Government Minister we spoke to, who seemed under a duty to act in compatibility with it and should to suggest that there had been no interchange with the take active steps to promote and fulfil the freedoms in UK Government on this issue. If the Government are the Bill. engaged with the devolved Administration in Scotland, I shall briefly mention international human rights I am pleased to hear it and withdraw my criticism. instruments. The Bill of Rights debate could look outwards more to the international agreements that we have Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Was signed and ratified, such as the conventions on children’s the Select Committee not too dismissive of the difficulties rights and, most recently, on disability rights. The Bill in dealing with devolution in relation to a new constitutional of Rights would be a useful and effective way of settlement? The recommendations said that the devolution incorporating into the domestic agenda our general settlement created certain difficulties. However, the Select obligations to such vulnerable groups. We urge the Committee took evidence from Professor Robert Hazell Government to consult on whether there are rights about a similar issue that arose when the Canadian under human rights treaties that are not yet included in charter of rights and freedoms was introduced without domestic law, which it would be appropriate to include. Quebec’s consent. Quebec refused to accept the new We must be mindful of devolution. I have already constitution as a whole. Does that not show the dangers mentioned that Scotland is different from England and of going down this route with Scotland? Wales in respect of jury trials. Northern Ireland has been through a lengthy process to produce a draft Bill Mr. Dismore: I certainly do not think that we are of Rights for Northern Ireland. The report speaks of a dismissive of the problems. We are saying that we need Bill of Rights and Freedoms for the UK. The debate dialogue to resolve the issues, and that dialogue was raises many questions about national identity and requires perhaps missing in the case to which the hon. Gentleman dialogue between central Government and the devolved referred in Canada. There is certainly a willingness to Administrations. I was astounded to learn that ours was engage in Northern Ireland. The main worry there is the first Westminster Committee ever to hold formal that the implementation of the Northern Ireland Bill of evidence sessions at the Scottish Parliament. Devolution Rights will be delayed because of the wider debate in does not preclude a UK document, but there must be the UK. One of the issues that we have to address in provision for separate, added-on or subtracted rights as that wider context is how the Northern Ireland Bill of the devolution settlement may require. That can emerge Rights, which is a very advanced document, can be only through effective dialogue with the devolved married up with a wider UK Bill of Rights. For example, Administrations. there are certain rights, including cultural rights, in Finally, and perhaps paradoxically, I come to the title Northern Ireland as a result of the particular circumstances of the Bill of Rights. there, but they are perhaps less important elsewhere. There are also issues relating to the religious tensions of Sir Alan Beith: The words of the Government response the past. In Scotland, there are different issues because on the matter of devolution are characteristic of the of the different legal system. We have to see how we can Government’s relations with the devolved bodies that make those fit together. we described in the Justice Committee report on devolution. Can we have an overarching Bill of Rights for every The Government response states: eventuality? I do not think that we can. We may have to “The Government is alert to the need to engage with the have separate documents, which supplement a UK Bill devolved administrations and the devolved legislatures.” of Rights, or we may have to have different caveats to it. In other words, “We haven’t done it yet, but we might That can be achieved, and there is a general willingness get around to it.” in the devolved Administrations to work towards that, as long as their specific circumstances are recognised. Mr. Dismore: I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s When I came back from Scotland, one of my main intervention. When we went to Scotland it was clear concerns was that that did not seem to have been the that the first the devolved bodies had heard of the case so far. However, the Minister tells me that we are debate about the Bill of Rights was when we went to now well engaged, and I hope that the issue will be talk to them about it. There was a complete oversight overcome, if it was an issue in the first place—we on the part of the Government on the devolution thought that it was, but he says that it is not. dimension. The situation was different in Northern To return to my previous point, the Committee believes Ireland because the process had started and the Government that the Bill should be called a UK Bill of rights and were fully engaged through the Northern Ireland Office. freedoms. In the end, we regard the Government’s preferred A very interesting document was produced on that. title, which includes the word “responsibilities”, as somewhat inchoate and a distraction. It is probably intended for The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael political reasons, rather than to have any meaningful Wills): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. I effect. Our proposed title reflects the marriage of old realise that I will have a chance to say my piece, but on and new—our traditional freedoms and liberties, the 317WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 318WH

[Mr. Dismore] rights and responsibilities. The Committee comes down firmly against the idea of calling the Bill a Bill of rights new rights emanating from the Human Rights Act, and duties or a Bill of rights and responsibilities. In the social and economic rights and all the other ideas that I report, however, the Justice Secretary is quoted as having have covered. set out two purposes for a new Bill of Rights. One is to As I said at the beginning, this is the first chance that put rights in the context of responsibilities—that is a the House has had to debate a Bill of Rights, which is so primary purpose of the Bill. The second is to add important for our society in the 21st century. I hope economic and social rights, and I will come to that in a that it will not be our last chance to debate the issue and moment. First, however, I want to concentrate on the that the idea will catch the public’s imagination and find business of putting rights in the context of responsibilities. engagement. The old Bill of Rights has lasted for more We have the right Minister with us today, because he than 300 years, and I hope that the modern Bill of has been very clear in his statements on this subject, as Rights will, in the same way, be a vital part of our he is on many subjects. He has made it clear that rights constitution for centuries to come. “cannot be made contingent on the prior fulfilment of responsibilities”, 3.2 pm and that phrase is in the report. The Government Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I warmly response says: welcome the report for its excellent handling of where “This is indeed the Government’s view.” we have got to on human rights and for clearly setting out so many of the issues. I do not agree with all its However, it goes on to say: conclusions, but I welcome its general emphasis and “The fact that we all have rights is no reason for people not to many of its specific conclusions. It is an extremely exercise them responsibly or for the Government not to encourage useful piece of work, from which hon. Members on responsible behaviour so that the rights of all can be respected. ” both sides of the House can benefit. Fine. We all agree with that. I have spent quite a lot of Let me start by referring to two approaches to the Bill my life trying to persuade people to behave responsibly of Rights that worry me profoundly. One has generally in various ways, including politically. In that respect, I come from members of the Conservative party and have encouraged people to carry out their political particularly from Eurosceptics in it, who cannot quite duties by voting and taking an interest in politics. I have get their heads around the fact that the European also been delighted to support the numerous bodies and convention on human rights is not a product of the people in my constituency who do so many marvellous European Union, but a much earlier product of the things to contribute to civil society and to the welfare of Council of Europe, which was signed by a Conservative others. It is quite right that the Government should Minister many years ago. That line of argument suggests encourage responsible behaviour at the minimal level of that if we had a UK Bill of Rights or a British Bill of not interfering with the rights of others and at the much Rights—a lot lies between those two phrases—we could higher level of actively contributing to society. However, somehow diminish the impact of the European convention that is not the same as putting rights in the context of on human rights. The Committee’s report makes it responsibilities, which is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. absolutely clear that that is not the case, and nor is it the Government’s position that that should happen. I am Of course it is desirable that people should behave surprised that I still hear that argument from some on responsibly. If people break the law, they are liable on the Conservative Benches. conviction to lose part of their freedom, whether through a prison sentence, a community punishment or a fine. Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) However, should rights be dependent more generally on (LD): I am sorry to intervene so early on my right hon. responsible behaviour? Clearly, if everyone behaved Friend, but I want to support what he says. The responsibly and considerately, it would be much easier Conservatives are entirely inconsistent if they say or to maintain a free, harmonious and comfortable society. imply that that is their view, because they are among the It is highly desirable that people should behave in that first to ask for the rights of British citizens to be upheld way. However, there is no way in which we can calibrate in other countries, including on our continent. The best what rights individuals should have according to how way of absolutely guaranteeing that those rights were responsibly they live, except by the due process of law. upheld over the past 50 years has been the European Where the law can reasonably be applied to control convention, which has applied across almost all countries behaviour that is a threat to the freedom of others, as in in almost all its clauses. the case even of driving without due care and attention, there can be a defined range of penalties, including loss Sir Alan Beith: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I of the right to drive a car. However, no one seriously should say that I do not attribute that view to the hon. suggests that a persistent failure to check on the health Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes), who is and welfare of neighbours, a refusal to contribute to the the Conservative spokesman. Indeed, I look forward to social life of the community or an unwillingness to hearing from him later, when I rather believe that he will engage in voluntary activity can be dealt with through set out a much clearer, more coherent and more acceptable some corresponding diminution in the right of free position. speech, the right of free assembly or the right to a fair The other position that I want to address comes from trial. Indeed, that conjures up the idea of a people’s Ministers and is a rather new Labour position. Again, it court or village soviet, which can decide that some of is one that the Committee dispenses with almost, although the residents are not fulfilling their social responsibilities not quite, entirely. It links rights and responsibilities enough to deserve certain of the rights that the rest of and introduces the concept that we could have a Bill of us have hitherto taken for granted. 319WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 320WH

If the Government’s proposal is more than mere UN treaties on the matter. We are saying that the rhetoric, it may be a misleading and potentially dangerous Government’s obligation should be progressively to realise attempt to diminish freedom. Those who toy with the those rights, and report to Parliament on progress, in a concept should explain how they believe that taking on way similar to what is proposed in the Child Poverty responsibility can become a condition for the enjoyment Bill. of rights. Someone can be a bad-tempered recluse if they want to be. Society would benefit if they took a Sir Alan Beith: The distinction that I am drawing is different approach to life and helped to run the scout between a justiciable statement of rights—a declaration troop, but doing so cannot be a condition for the of rights or Bill of Rights—and an aspirational statement possession of rights or the exercise of freedom. of things that Government should achieve and do. That The Committee is pretty firm in its attitude to that, may, of course, in some respects have the force of law, if except that it gives a little ground in the end by suggesting it is incorporated in legislation because parts of it have that it might be beneficial to include civic duties in the been found capable of being given a legal framework; preamble. If that is no more than mere rhetoric, I that is of course sometimes done in the slightly roundabout wonder whether it is justified. If it creates any sense that way of giving public bodies the responsibility to set rights can be made conditional on kinds of behaviour targets for achieving certain things, so that the question that are not regulated by law, it could be pernicious and whether they have reasonably gone through the targeting dangerous. That is a most fundamental issue, on which process becomes potentially justiciable. I want to be even clearer than the Committee. If we do not preserve the distinction, there is a On social and economic rights, I remain something of danger of weakening the significance of the rights that a sceptic, although not about the concept that people are justiciable, and misleading people into thinking that have a right to housing or to access health care. Indeed, both kinds of thing can be treated the same. one of liberalism’s fundamental features is that it was increasingly widely defined to recognise that the possession Simon Hughes: On a postscript to my right hon. of civil liberties was insufficient to guarantee freedom. Friend’s point, one of the difficulties of adding social People would not be free if they were prevented, by lack and economic rights is that even if the courts might of access to health care, or by total lack of means, from uphold such claims, it is, by definition, probably for the exercising any freedom at all. So, as a Liberal, I am no state to deliver them. That creates the risk of undermining stranger to the notion that rights in the economic and the authority of the court, and therefore the Bill of social sphere are very important and are fundamental Rights, in relation to the citizen. Civic and political to people’s enjoyment of freedom; however, it does not rights can always be enforced, and, relatively, cost much necessarily make those rights suitable or effective candidates less. for inclusion in a justiciable Bill of Rights. I have the greatest respect for Albie Sachs, and not Sir Alan Beith: My hon. Friend develops precisely the least for the way his court in South Africa has dealt with point I was making, in a very helpful way. some of the issues that we are discussing; he and his The report deals with a number of other important colleagues must adjudicate in some matters of economic issues, such as the involvement of Parliament in the and social rights. It is very apparent from the history of derogation process. That is an extremely valuable South Africa why it should have been seen as so important contribution to the debate, which we should pursue. It to include those in any statement of the rights that also deals, as was mentioned in an earlier exchange, people would have once apartheid was brought to an with devolution issues, and the fact that some rights end. However, that still does not demonstrate that, to that some people think would be appropriate in a Bill of refer to his already-quoted words, Rights for England and Wales do not apply in the same “a country which does not include social and economic rights in way in Scotland, where similar objects are achieved by some form in its Bill of Rights is a country which has given up on different processes. Less use is made of trial by jury, for aspiration”. example, than in England and Wales. That is nice phrasing, but there are other ways of Lack of engagement presents a problem. I may have aspiring, and expressing aspiration, than by giving people been too severely critical of the Minister, but at least I the impression that a justiciable right will enable them have given him the opportunity to defend himself and to have the housing they need, the employment his Department; but it is the experience of the Committee opportunities they deserve, or the health care that could of which I am Chairman, the Select Committee on make such a difference to their lives. One of the key Justice, as well as of the Human Rights Committee, that reasons for that is that all those things involve essentially the level of engagement between the United Kingdom political decisions about resources that Governments Government and devolved Governments, and the United must make, and politicians must take responsibility for Kingdom Parliament and devolved Parliaments and their failure to provide adequate care in certain kinds of Assemblies, is well below what is really required to ill health, or adequate employment opportunities. Those make the devolution settlement work. Perhaps that is are, rightly, major political issues, but they are difficult not surprising. It is all relatively new and many of the to make justiciable, and they put courts in a difficult participants have been busy looking after their own position. corner, as it were, whether that is governing Scotland or trying to work out how Departments covering England, Mr. Dismore: We are not arguing for fully justiciable or England and Wales, can relate to what is happening rights in that context. Our bull point is the progressive there. Our report, “Devolution: A Decade On”underlines realisation of the rights, as set out, for example, in pretty firmly the ambiguities and uncertainties in the the international covenant on economic, social and structure that is meant to deal with those things, and cultural rights, which is part of the trio of important the need for progress. 321WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 322WH

Mr. Wills: Will the right hon. Gentleman clarify However, there is a certain lack of coherence and whether he is talking generally about the relationship shape to the process, and there is no real process by between the United Kingdom Government and the which to engage with citizens to ensure that there is devolved Administrations, or particularly in relation to some consensus on constitutional change. I do not want the Green Paper on rights and responsibilities? to dampen the enthusiasm for constitutional reform at all, but I want to make sure we have a coherent process. Sir Alan Beith: I had indeed moved from talking My Committee will do some more work on that. However, about the specific case, to say that the likely reason for in its reflections on the sort of process that we might what has happened is, as the Committee identifies, that need, the Joint Committee on Human Rights has done what I describe is characteristic of much of the general us a service by trying to widen the scope. I have severe pattern of relations between the component parts of doubts about whether that is a road we need to go down Government in the United Kingdom in the early period at all, as far as human rights legislation is concerned. since devolution. However, if we do, a process that involves our citizens more fully and leads to very considered decisions in this Mr. Wills: To be absolutely clear, do I understand area is vital. I fear that we may run the risk of having a that the right hon. Gentleman is talking about something dangerous constitution Act, which is something we that is likely to be the case, as my hon. Friend the should avoid. Member for Hendon was saying, but that he has not experienced himself? 3.20 pm Sir Alan Beith: My point is that I have taken ample David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD): It is a great pleasure evidence that the situation in relation to governance to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick- matters generally, between the various parts of the upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith). I agree with a great deal United Kingdom, is an unsatisfactory one. That is set of what he said. I also agree with the Committee’s out in the report, to which we await the Government’s report in two crucial respects: it is wrong to link human response in due course, on how devolution is working. rights with individual responsibilities—as my right hon. The Joint Committee on Human Rights identifies a Friend said—and it makes no sense to link the human particular problem, and the same things appear to have rights debate with attempts to promote notions of been happening in the area that I was talking about. It Britishness. is not a criticism that I make too severely, because it is The Committee was right on those issues because of part of the growing pains of the devolution process, but a reason that relates to both of them. Human rights it needs to be addressed. form a basic minimum standard, below which no civilised That brings me to the fundamental point. Should we Government should ever fall in their dealings with any go through the process of creating a new Bill of Rights, human. That means that complying with human rights or should we do more to make the one that we have standards simply cannot be made conditional on the work more effectively? One of the more worrying things behaviour of individuals, as my right hon. Friend is that several important rights have been damaged or demonstrated. The state must not behave in ways that abrogated under the present regime, and there is no violate those standards, no matter with whom they are particular evidence that the creation of an additional dealing. That applies to unpopular and antisocial people, Bill of Rights would put a stop to that. Indeed, if as well as everyone else. anything, some of its advocates seem to hope that it For the same reason, one cannot say that human would cause the Human Rights Act 1998 to have less rights are peculiarly British. They are universal and impact than it does now. Much of what I am talking they apply to all states and humans—not just the citizens about relates to derogations in the context of anti-terrorism of particular states and the residents of particular places. legislation, or matters in such legislation that are not It is no more British—in some cases it might be less, but the subject of derogation but which have been sources it is certainly no more—to support human rights than it of loss of rights. Paragraph 37 of the report deals with is French, Canadian or Australian. I also agree with the evidence about several issues, including rights of assembly Committee when it states that we should be suspicious in the vicinity of Parliament and other features of of the motives of those who call for a British Bill of anti-terrorism legislation, and the fact that those have Rights and responsibilities. If the people calling for that effectively involved limitation or abrogation of rights. were genuinely concerned about strengthening human We should be concentrating our effort on making rights protection—as is my right hon. Friend, the hon. sure that the existing system works, and that on the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) and I—there would occasions when we must consider derogating from it we not be a problem. However, the reality is that many of do so by a process that involves Parliament more fully those who call for such a measure—both in the Government and effectively. I remain a sceptic about the need to add and the official Opposition—show no sign whatsoever to the corpus of human rights legislation at this stage. of wanting to strengthen the law. The hon. Member for However, if we are to do so, I am glad that the Committee Hendon mentioned a key example in the form of his has raised some process issues. We are in the middle of a Human Rights Act 1998 (Meaning of Public Authority) quite strange process, which is welcome, in one sense, to Bill, which I strongly support. The Bill would extend those of us who have always wanted constitutional the protection of human rights law, so that it is reform; but constitutional reform is springing up all exercisable against those private organisations that carry over the place. Prime Ministers and party leaders are out state functions—particularly under contracting-out coming out with speeches day after day about more and arrangements. When the Bill comes before the House in more reforms. More legislation is being offered, suggested, about 10 days’ time, I urge the Government to allow it or, in the case of the parliamentary standards authority, through because it would strengthen the law in a useful brought forward in a matter of days. and important way. 323WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 324WH

The problem is that the real motive for introducing a consensus across the parties, but it breaks down on that British Bill of Rights and responsibilities seems to be issue, first, because our reasons for supporting the simply to appease an angry right-wing populist press general idea of constitutional reform and a Bill of that has always hated the Human Rights Act. They hate Rights are different from those of the Government and, it for several reasons. My right hon. Friend the Member secondly, because we disagree on the points about tactics for Berwick-upon-Tweed mentioned one of the reasons, and strategy. which is the incorrect association of the European Given the atmosphere in which we are living, is this convention on human rights with the European Union. the right time to launch a reform of this particular part Another motive, which is also technically incorrect, is of the structure? We must first secure what we have, and the association that some newspapers make between the that means defending the idea of human rights and the Human Rights Act and the development of privacy law Human Rights Act. The Conservatives try to have it by the courts. The third reason why such parts of the both ways by saying that they are, of course, in favour press hate the European convention on human rights of human rights and that they are simply against the and the Human Rights Act is because they do not Human Rights Act. That is a self-undermining argument, believe in the central idea of human rights in the first which cannot be sustained in the long term. In fact, the place, which is that there should be limits to what a political meaning of such an argument is obvious; in majority can do to an unpopular minority. It is easy to reality, the Conservatives are trying to side with the sell newspapers by running campaigns against despised populists who are against the whole idea. minorities. Simon Hughes: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Mr. Wills: Politicians. I have been troubled that, despite the strong words issued by the present Lord Chancellor in some of his David Howarth: Absolutely. As the Minister said, I previous roles and by Lord Falconer when he was Lord hope that after recent events, people in this room and Chancellor that the Government were keen to promote this House will see that issue rather more clearly than the Human Rights Act and to explain what the European they have done. To the extent that human rights law gets convention meant, the position still, to be honest, has in the way of such campaigns, those newspapers target not been clearly, regularly and consistently enunciated human rights law as well. I suppose that cowering so that ordinary British people understand the range of before the press is a habit we have all acquired, but we rights. If they did, they would be hugely reassured should ask where that has led. In the field of human rather than occasionally troubled. rights, it has led to the failure—sometimes a complete failure—to defend the idea of human rights itself. David Howarth: I thank my hon. Friend. Lord Falconer started to defend the Human Rights Act but then that We are now in a situation where some people say that seemed to fade away. The present Lord Chancellor gives the thing to do is to attempt to re-launch the idea of interviews, three quarters of which are marvellous. He human rights in a sort of disguise, to try to deal with the includes strong defences of the idea of human rights anti-European bile—because that is what it is—by talking and the Human Rights Act, but then, towards the end about the Britishness of rights, and to try to deal with or in crucial parts, he slips away to the other point of the populism by talking about responsibilities. That is view. He is trying to be both for and against the Daily where the Government are coming from in terms of a Mail in the Daily Mail. We need to be much clearer political strategy. However, I do not think that such an about human rights. approach can possibly work; actually it will make the situation worse. Such a policy fails to understand the Mr. Wills: For the record, may I suggest that the hon. basic problem, which is that those who oppose human Gentleman actually read the interview that my right rights on populist grounds simply do not accept the hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor gave to the Daily basic idea that even unpopular people deserve rights. Mail? If he reads it carefully, he will see that my right So, saying that rights are British or linking them with hon. Friend refers to other points of view. It is perfectly responsibilities will make things worse, because doing legitimate to reflect the other points of view in this so concedes to the argument that only the popular country about the Human Rights Act. It does not mean should be protected. If we say to populists that human that he supports those views; he is merely reflecting rights should protect us all, we will not persuade them them. that the unpopular should be protected. All they will say is, “Why should undeserving people get the rights David Howarth: I had the misfortune of reading that that I have?” Such an approach will not work and I article earlier today. The Lord Chancellor defends the plead with the Government to move away from that idea of human rights for three quarters of the time but political strategy, because it will make things worse. then, towards the end, he says that he gets frustrated The Committee’s point of view seems to be that, with the judges’ interpretations of human rights because although there are bad reasons for going forward with a they give the impression that the Human Rights Act is a British Bill of Rights and freedoms project, there are villain’s charter. He does not say that it is a villain’s also good reasons to do so. The Committee considers it charter—he blames the judges for making it a villain’s a good idea to launch into a full scale reform of human charter, which makes the whole thing worse rather than rights law now—not on the basis put forward by the better. Government or the official Opposition, but on the more rational basis that a large number of improvements in Mr. Burrowes: The hon. Gentleman criticises the the law could be made. I can see that point, but I am not Conservatives for forming a critique of the Human convinced it is the right time to carry out such reform. Rights Act. Would he, as a Liberal, defend the status The hon. Member for Hendon talked about having a quo in respect of the Strasbourg court jurisprudence? 325WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 326WH

[Mr. Burrowes] although I am very much in favour of the Committee’s conclusion, nevertheless makes my point clearly. The Perhaps he would not share the concerns of my Front-Bench right to a fair trial is a human right in that it is team, but would he share the concerns of the noble universal, but the specific right to a jury trial is a civil Lord Hoffmann, who is concerned about the Strasbourg right of people in England and Wales—in that case, of court, in effect, second-guessing the courts and, indeed, residents rather than citizens. That does not mean that the Parliament of this land? the right to jury trial should not be given a special protected status similar to that given to a human right—I David Howarth: If one is part of a constitutional would be in favour of doing that—but it cannot be the structure, one has to take the rough with the smooth. same thing. It is not universal; it is not about all states One cannot go around saying, “We accept the court’s or all humans everywhere in the world. judgments when we agree with them, but we do not The same point applies to much of the debate about accept them when we disagree with them.” That is not social and economic rights, and possibly environmental how a legal structure works. rights as well. The hon. Member for Hendon is right to say that there is no explicit human right to be protected Mr. Dismore: I have heard the argument propagated from destitution, but destitution can amount to violation by the Conservatives. It is nonsense. The way things are of the article 3 right to be protected from inhuman, now, if a judgment is made against another country, it is degrading treatment, or even the right to life in article 2. not binding on the UK, according to their argument. There is a sense in which freedom from destitution is a That is fine, but, eventually, there will be a case against human right because it protects the basics, the the UK, and it will be 10 times worse when we, rather fundamentals—life and basic dignity. than somebody else, are found to have done something It would be possible to go further than that on the wrong, instead of just putting things right ourselves. basis of justiciable rights, as long as one knew what one was doing. For example, there is a sense in which to David Howarth: That is precisely right. The Conservatives’ exercise one’s political rights to be a citizen, one needs entire position strikes me as incoherent. If one switches some basic level of health care, housing and education. what they are saying to the position of other countries It would be only a minimum standard and would require and tries to work it out from that point of view, it makes some resources—this is not an argument about all no sense whatsoever. resources—but it would be possible to do that on the We need to say more clearly that human rights are basis of what was owed to citizens or residents, rather there to stop states, including ours, acting in totally than what is owed to all humans in the world, wherever unacceptable ways, and that it does not matter whether they might be. when the state does those things it does them to good The second criticism is that some confusion seems to people or to bad people—people approved of or have crept into the Committee’s thinking, and the disapproved of by the newspapers. Government’s thinking, too, about the difference between We need to say clearly that asserting a human right is a written constitution as a project and a Bill of Rights not a selfish act. There is a great deal of rhetoric—more as a project. I noticed the other day that the Prime on the left than on the right, but some on the right as Minister had returned to his view, which he mentioned well—that human rights are part of some libertarian right at the start of his term of office, that he was in plot to reduce all thinking to that of atomistic individuals favour of a written constitution. who assert their own interests through a legal structure A written constitution project is a different thing. For and do not care about anybody else. When someone example, entrenchment of a Bill of Rights can occur in asserts a human right, they are doing a public act, the a meaningful, full way only in the context of a written effect of which is to restrain the Government from constitution. Only if there is a written constitution can doing something that they should not do in their public one get away from the fundamental problems of the and political role. It is not the privatisation of politics sovereignty of Parliament, and the idea that Parliament but part of politics itself. Finally, we need to say clearly can pass anything as a law and can overturn anything that newspapers that campaign against the Human that has previously been passed as a law. In reality, one Rights Act are endangering all our liberties. can get away from that only if there is a written constitution. To come back to my central point about strategy and This is where the argument about preambles and tactics, after we have won the battle for the idea of declarations has gone wrong. Much has been said about human rights, we can move on to talk about the statements of values and symbolic statements of that improvements in the law that the Committee rightly kind. They are the kind of thing that one sees in the points out could be achieved. I have already been speaking preambles to written constitutions. They make perfect for 15 minutes, so I do not want to go through all the sense in such contexts, but one does not see them in the Committee’s specific proposals in the detail that they preamble to Bills of Rights or human rights Acts as deserve, especially as I think that in many cases this is limitations on governmental power. It is better to state not quite the right time to press them. I am generally the values to which the state is committed in the structure sympathetic to what the Committee is saying, but I of the constitution. There is no need to do that simply would like to make two general criticisms in the hope in the limiting bit—in the Bill of Rights bit or in the that it might help the debate in future. Human Rights Act bit. The whole thing requires a The first criticism is that some of the Committee’s preamble. proposals seem to mix up human rights and civil rights; If the Government were to say that in drawing up that is, rights that belong to all humans in all states, and their statement of values they were trying to draft an the rights of citizens of a particular state or the residents early version of the preamble to a written constitution, of a particular place. I can give an example which, rather than something to do with the Bill of Rights, I 327WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 328WH could see what they were up to and would understand and consideration we consider all aspects, even when we it. There is an issue about whether that is the right way must say, “No, let’s wait, and take more time to consider round, and some people would argue that the mechanics matters.” should be done first, and that the values should then be Perhaps our political crisis highlights the need for a considered, but linking the writing of the preamble to new constitutional settlement such as new Bill of Rights, reform of human rights law is odd and risky, and but we should proceed with due caution. It is vital to the should be rethought. vibrancy of our democracy and our respect for human Despite some reservations about tactics and strategy rights to ensure that Parliament is sovereign. On the in the Committee’s report, I very much welcome it, and comments made by the hon. Member for Cambridge I urge the Government to be more positive about it. (David Howarth), it is a priority to put our house in order, and to do so soon. 3.41 pm Before leaving the French revolution and that historical note, perhaps we should be aware of Jeremy Bentham’s Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I criticism of the French declaration—that it failed to welcome this debate, and the Joint Committee’s report. provide any legal remedies to enforce rights, that those The subject is important, and has attracted all parties rights were too abstract to have any real meaning, and for different reasons. I commend the Committee for the that it was favoured depth of its analysis. “by poets, rhetoricians, and dealers in moral and intellectual As the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) said, poisons”. it is important to have consensus, but it has been He said that in pejorative tones, but we must keep an suggested that the legislation will not be introduced eye on the relevance of rights and their enforceability. until after the general election. It is important that that consensus is both political and public, and that when It is important to discuss the matter in Parliament, we consider making quick decisions to put our own which is why this debate is welcome. The hon. Member house in order we do not circumvent more considered for Hendon said that it has taken its time to come to judgments on where Parliament fits into a new debate, and it took 14 or so months for the Government constitutional settlement. In the present climate of to produce the Green Paper, but at least we have some disconnection with the public, we must not rush too far focus on the road down which they want to take us ahead. when considering human rights, what they should be, and whether and how they should be enshrined in a new I trust that the hon. Member for Hendon, the Minister Bill of Rights. I welcome our future debates and discussions. and other hon. Members involved in drawing up the new constitutional settlement are aware of the fate that For too long, public perception has been that Parliament befell the authors of the declaration of the rights of and the country are looking outside the debate and men and of the citizen promulgated by the French issues concerning human rights, and perhaps in some national convention in 1789. The authors, as hon. Members ways it resembles a game of tennis at Wimbledon—it will be aware, were guillotined in 1794. I give way to an would be a welcome place to be on this bright, sunny hon. Member who might be in the firing line. afternoon—with human rights being knocked about like a tennis ball. To take the Wimbledon analogy Mr. Dismore: Thomas Paine was one of the main further, despite human rights being debated in Britain, architects, but he was not guillotined. He was locked up British participants often seem to have little involvement for a while, but was sprung by the then American and little ownership, and seem to have been spectators. ambassador, and ended up causing as much trouble in At the time of the Human Rights Act 1998, the America as he had everywhere else. present Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor claimed, and repeated it in the Green Paper, that the Mr. Burrowes: I am grateful for that information, and Labour Government were bringing human rights home. I am willing to be corrected, but my understanding is Those words made good headlines and carry on the that the guillotine fell on others who were party to early sporting analogy, but they were historically inaccurate. consideration of the declaration. I concede that that Freedom and liberty found their home 200 years earlier had as much to do with the febrile political atmosphere in common law. To take issue with the hon. Member for in revolutionary France as to the quality and relevance Cambridge, English and British rights have formed part of the rights and declaration. I do not suggest the of our identity in the rule of law from the Saxon moot guillotine for the hon. Gentleman, or even the Minister, courts, Magna Carta and beyond. Those important but we must be aware of the political climate and how it traditions form our British identity. affects constitutional processes. It is important that we I shall not stay in history, because we must examine consider the context carefully. the present architecture of human rights. It is important Our current political crisis may not be on the scale of to recognise that a key problem— that in revolutionary France, but it demands that we urgently address constitutional issues, such as the Mr. Wills: I do not want to interrupt the hon. relationship of Parliament and the Executive, and recognise Gentleman’s flow, but before he leaves his historical that constitutional questions are immediately being thrown point, will he clarify something? Is it important that up. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed British citizens have the right to enforce their rights (Sir Alan Beith) referred to the Parliamentary Standards under international conventions to which the United Bill, and in a matter of days we will, as some would say, Kingdom is a signatory? I am referring specifically to seek to ride roughshod over the last Bill of Rights in the European convention on human rights. If so, is it 1689 when considering enforcement of the code of better for them to be able to enforce those rights in a conduct. It is important that when we strive for consensus British court, or to have to go to Strasbourg to do so? 329WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 330WH

Mr. Burrowes: If the Minister is patient, I will, as he Mr. Dismore: This is one of the most bizarre points; it anticipates, go through that point with some care. He is one of the points of Conservative party policy that I can come back to me by all means if he does not think find most difficult to understand. To follow up the that what I say is clear. Minister’s intervention, how on earth can it be to the The debate can be polarised and the criticism of detriment of UK citizens and other people who may positions can also be polarised. People can suggest that not be citizens to have their cases decided by a UK it is just a Eurosceptic view that expresses concerns court and a UK judge, rather than having to go to about the way in which the European Court of Human Strasbourg to have their cases decided? How on earth Rights in Strasbourg deals with issues. However, it is a can it be against their interests to have a British judge, key problem for the people in this country that the who understands the British way of life and British Strasbourg Court lacks proper constitutional legitimacy circumstances, deciding a case, rather than the Court in in this country. That is not just my view or a Eurosceptic Strasbourg deciding it? view. It is, as I have mentioned, the view of Lord Hoffmann. He said in a lecture in March to the Judicial Mr. Burrowes: I am not resiling from the European Studies Board: convention, but one has to recognise that there are deficiencies. There are deficiencies in the Human Rights “Whatever one may say about the wisdom or even correctness Act. One has only to consider the case of retention of of decisions of the Court of Justice in Luxembourg, no one can DNA samples from innocent suspects. I understand criticise their legitimacy in laying down uniform rules for the European Union in those areas which fall within the scope of the that it took more than eight years and the matter had to Treaty. But the Convention does not give the Strasbourg court be taken beyond our own courts to Strasbourg in order equivalent legitimacy. As the case law shows, there is virtually no for the Government to be forced to understand the aspect of our legal system, from land law to social security to unlawfulness of retaining those samples. That is an torts to consumer contracts, which is not arguably touched at example of the Human Rights Act not properly protecting some point by human rights. But we have not surrendered our human rights, and the matter eventually had to be taken sovereignty over all these matters. We remain an independent to Strasbourg to confirm them. One has to recognise nation with its own legal system, evolved over centuries of that the present architecture is not acceptable and is not constitutional struggle and pragmatic change.” doing the job that it should be doing. Like Lord Hoffmann, I would not suggest that our system is perfect, but it is important, when we seek to David Howarth: This is a point that I have never quite improve the way in which human rights are applied, understood about the Conservative party, either. If the that we should be making those improvements in this problem, as the Conservatives see it, is with the Strasbourg Parliament. Court’s decisions, the only remedy is to change things at that level—to obtain agreement in the Council of Europe for a change to be made in the convention itself—or to Mr. Dismore: Does that not completely blow out of leave the convention. There are no other possibilities. the water the Conservative party’s arguments about the One cannot change the content of the convention by importance of the Strasbourg Court and how important changing the content of domestic law. It just does not the Human Rights Act is in the UK? work, so what is the answer to the problem that the Conservative party and Lord Hoffmann have identified Mr. Burrowes: No, it does not—far from it. Lord that makes sense within the architecture in which we Hoffmann’s criticism made the point that the Strasbourg find ourselves? Court had not limited itself to the strict judicial discipline of interpreting and applying convention rights. He said Mr. Burrowes: The answer is to ensure that we have in relation to the way in which it has applied convention legislation that is applied and enforced by courts and rights: that does not resile from the principles in the European “It has been unable to resist the temptation to aggrandise its convention; we would not wish to do that. If one looks jurisdiction and to impose uniform rules on Member States.” at the text of the convention, one sees deeply held British values, such as the right of the individual against He went on to give examples of circumstances in which arbitrary and excessive state powers. The issue is the the Strasbourg Court had sought to second-guess UK application and interpretation of it. One has to accept regulations. He referred to the right to privacy and that Strasbourg— family life being expanded to second-guess regulation governing night flights at Heathrow. I concur with his Mr. Wills: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? point. The courts have a duty to apply the law vigorously, as they do up and down this land, but when they stray Mr. Burrowes: In a moment. One has to accept that into the area of law-making, which is the job of elected Strasbourg Court jurisprudence has in many ways gone law-makers, that needs to be rectified. That is our too far and gone beyond what our country and our concern. courts should properly be applying. It is important that Another great concern of not only the Conservative we have a Bill of Rights and that we have the opportunity party but many others is that the Human Rights Act with a new Bill of Rights to consider a Bill that can be has, by its very process, exacerbated the problems identified properly compatible with the European convention on by Lord Hoffmann. This may not be the time to go human rights, but is not bound by Strasbourg Court through the details and examples, but that matter needs jurisprudence. to be properly considered and dealt with. We need to move away from the situation in which UK judges are Mr. Dismore rose— matching Strasbourg’s case law in domestic law.Significantly, that is not required by the convention. Mr. Wills rose— 331WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 332WH

Miss Anne Begg (in the Chair): To whom is the hon. ECHR applies to UK citizens. Such clarification would Gentleman giving way? be welcome. Indeed, our debate highlights how welcome it would be. Mr. Burrowes: To the Minister. Mr. Dismore: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr. Wills: Shortly we shall have a vote and the hon. Gentleman may want to reflect on what he is saying. I would be grateful for just a little clarification. First he Mr. Burrowes: No, I wish to make further progress. seems to be saying that there are deficiencies in the What the Government seek in wanting to draw up a Strasbourg jurisprudence and that needs to be changed, new constitutional settlement is important. We should which is the point to which the hon. Member for consider their record over the last 10 years in seeking to Cambridge (David Howarth) referred. Next he seems to enshrine freedom under the law. Do they have the be saying that he does not resile from it; he thinks that it credibility to take it forward, given that they have been is a wonderful thing and it embodies British values; and willing to bypass basic legal principles in the name of the problem is the way in which those rights have been administrative efficiency and control? brought home in the Human Rights Act. If he is in fact making that last point, can he be specific? Where specifically The Government have proposed detaining suspects are the deficiencies in the drafting of the Human Rights for up to six weeks without charge; control orders; a Act? I am not talking about specific cases, in respect of plethora of criminal justice legislation, with a new piece which he may take issue with the judges. Which bits of of legislation every six months; and they have tried to the Human Rights Act would he like to be redrafted? remove judicial review in asylum cases. They have attempted Can he give us some clarification on that? to limit trial by jury at various times; and they have changed the burden of proof in some criminal cases to Mr. Burrowes: I do not propose to go into a debate on facilitate conviction. Those actions highlight an important all the schedules to the Human Rights Act. We had that transformation over the past 10 years. debate at the time. We scrutinised it and, from the Front We should also consider the increase in administrative Bench, we predicted the confrontation between the penalties, imposed without trial; I think of the antisocial judges and the Executive in relation to a number of behaviour order and the fixed penalty notice. The issues. The Minister does not wish me to, but I could go Government have also taken intrusive powers to acquire through real examples of where the Human Rights Act and retain national databases giving detailed information has failed this country’s interests. There have been instances on the law-abiding; and the law has often been dominated in which the Human Rights Act has not properly protected by trivia, with the Government devoting time to regulating human rights. There are examples in which it has not on minor matters. The context is important. Ever more gone far enough and in which it has been deficient. We of our individual freedoms are being taken by the state, need to ensure that we have a Bill of Rights that is thus undermining individual responsibility and properly compatible with the European convention on neighbourliness. The breakdown in the rule of law over human rights— the past 10 years is making us less safe and is eroding confidence in what was once the best and fairest justice Sir Alan Beith: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? system in the world. That is relevant, as one has to ask whether the Government have the credibility to take the Mr. Burrowes: I wish to take this argument further. matter forward. I give two examples from the Green We also need a Bill that is not wholly bound by the Paper on the subject. Strasbourg Court jurisprudence. That is not necessary; the convention does not require it. We need better to The first is about good administration, which is referred define the ECHR prescriptions and ensure that those to in paragraph 3.39. The question is whether administrative principles are expressed so that they are relevant to all principles lead to good administration being justiciable. people. We need to ensure that we do that because when We should remember how the Government have treated one considers the way in which the Government have the parliamentary ombudsman over the last few years. dealt with human rights in the past 10 years—the right They rejected her recommendations and as a result have hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed made a point in undermined respect for that office. Such Government this regard—–they are found wanting. That is an important failures could lead to a groundswell of concern that context. they are not doing their job properly. Not respecting the role of the ombudsman could lead to support for some justiciable rights on such matters. Sir Alan Beith: In a genuine search for truth, I want to establish whether the hon. Gentleman is proposing The second example is in relation to jury trial, which that we pass a new British Bill of Rights so that people was referred to by the hon. Member for Cambridge. A can have a choice between two routes—either invoking good argument can be made for a right to jury trial to the European convention in both British and Strasbourg be enshrined in a bill of rights, but where do the courts or applying a British Human Rights Act. I shall Government stand on the matter? They have a bad leave aside the question of how one might impact on history in seeking to remove jury trial. Despite votes to the other. Will we have a choice, or will the British Act kick out Government proposals on limiting jury trial, depend on us abandoning our signature to the European they still continue to perpetuate the debate. Indeed, convention on human rights? paragraph 3.30 states: “There is also a legitimate debate over whether some cases, Mr. Burrowes: What is needed is clarification. The particularly serious fraud cases, are simply too complex to present answer is no to choice and no to abandoning our properly to a jury and therefore, jury trial is an unreliable way of signature to the convention. We need to clarify how the delivering justice in those cases.” 333WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 334WH

[Mr. Burrowes] 4.8 pm

The Government are still lukewarm about that important The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael principle. Perhaps additional support is needed to ensure Wills): This is a welcome debate, and I congratulate my that it is enshrined in a Bill of Rights, given their hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) on ambivalence on the subject. securing it. It is a profoundly important matter, and we heard important contributions from everyone who has In some ways, that is in contrast to the spoken. I am grateful to all who contributed to the commentary and consideration of the Joint Committee’s debate. There are five of us in this shady Chamber this recommendations on whether economic and social rights afternoon. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon should be incorporated in a new Bill of rights. However, pointed out that this is the first time that Parliament has I recognise the scepticism of the right hon. Member for had a chance to debate the subject, but from this small Berwick-upon-Tweed on those rights being justiciable, and select gathering I am sure that those important particularly on whether they would weaken rights that contributions will ripple out to engage the nation in due should properly be included in a Bill of Rights. course—and so they should. Concern was expressed by the Joint Committee, and The Prime Minister’s recent statement on democratic must be expressed again, on how those rights would be renewal showed the Government’s continuing commitment enforced. The Government do not seek to go down that to the process of radical constitutional change. It is not route at this stage in the continuum, but where do they constitutional vandalism, as the hon. Member for Enfield, wish to go? It is a matter of great concern, given that we Southgate (Mr. Burrowes) suggested, but profound and want to reassert the authority of Parliament, that the radical constitutional reform. Government should think of abdicating responsibility for deciding how scarce resources should be allocated to We brought about devolution, which most people unelected judges. will agree has been a success. It was sometimes a difficult and challenging experience but it was none the less In an article in The Sunday Times on 22 March, the successful. No one watching the recent Mayoral elections Minister referred to “constitutional expression”, saying in London would have seen anything other than a that vigorous democracy; even if it did not produce the “Words have power in their own right.” result that some would have wanted, it was democracy Words certainly can have power: they can raise hope. in action, and I think that the people of London appreciated Constitutional documents may contain symbolism and that—just as the people of the United Kingdom appreciate lead to aspirations, as well as enforceable rights. However, all the devolution measures that we have brought about. words without legal force will mean us ending up with We also brought in the Freedom of Information those imaginary rights that Bentham thought would Act 2000, and we have seen the benefits of that throughout lead to anarchy in France. I do not suggest that that its history. In recent weeks, that Act has been particularly would be the case today, but would it not further challenging for many Members of the House—and perpetuate people’s disconnection with Parliament? indeed for the institution of Parliament. People believe that Parliament should be the place to Nevertheless, anyone looking at events in recent weeks deliver such economic and social rights, scrutinising would agree that the Freedom of Information Act has legislation to ensure that duties are explained and delivered. done nothing but good for the constitutional health of However, such rights would not deal with what many our democracy. We also introduced the Human Rights people say they want when answering polls on whether Act 1998, which I shall talk about at greater length they want a decent house or a decent health service. Do shortly. It was a profoundly important measure that has they want to see such things properly shown and exhibited already proved itself to be of great value to the people in a constitutional settlement rather than having the of this country, and will continue to do so, if left on the Government delivering them? statute book. The Government would have us believe that a quiet We have been criticised for our attention to constitutional revolution is in place, that it will lead us to a next stage, reform, not by the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon- and that all is rosy in the constitutional garden. Thankfully, Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), the hon. Member for Cambridge legislation on the subject will not happen until after the (David Howarth) or their party, but by many others, next general election. We should certainly agree on that including commentators and those in the Conservative point, because we shall then have a new Parliament. We party. When we produced the Green Paper on the shall then have a new Government—one that has not governance of Britain, commentators asked, “What been guilty of constitutional vandalism in that garden, does all this mean down the Dog and Duck? Why are has not been trampling on centuries-old liberties and you concentrating on this?” Regularly we hear, “What’s has not been engaging in over-regulating conduct. this got to do with bread-and-butter politics?” Well, I Although the Government want us to deliberate on think that we have seen the reason we have paid it such the matter and discuss it—we should try to reach attention; it is instructive how many people in this place consensus—we will not be able to reach that new dawn have suddenly developed an interest in constitutional of constitutional change if the Government do not reform in recent weeks. recognise the importance of restoring trust and confidence. Last August the Joint Committee on Human Rights That trust and confidence has been broken by excessive produced a report. I pay tribute to that report and the state prescription and a lack of respect for the need to work of my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon restore tradition, freedom, justice, liberty and tolerance. (Mr. Dismore) and his Committee colleagues in producing The Government have failed by neglecting that need, it. It was an extremely important contribution to the and it will indeed take a general election for it to debate, as has been evidenced in contributions today. It happen. will continue to feature as a centrepiece of the national 335WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 336WH debate that the Government began following the publication pointed out persistently—he did so again today—the of the March Green Paper on a Bill of Rights and House of Lords decision was unexpected. I do not Responsibilities. I commend that Green Paper to think that it was in the minds of many of those who everybody—it was not always clear from today’s voted for the Act that its scope should be so restrictive. contributions that it has been read thoroughly. We have given an undertaking to deal with, and have As the Green Paper points out, how individuals dealt with, the consequences of that decision. I am should live together, what rights and freedoms we should afraid that I do not agree with his characterisation of enjoy in relation to each other and against the state, and our actions. Did he call it a patch-up? Would he remind how they should be balanced by the responsibilities that me of his exact phrase? I certainly disagreed with it, but we owe each other, are among the most fundamental I would like to remember what I am disagreeing with. questions in politics. They are not abstractions or removed from the practical politics of jobs, housing, health care Mr. Dismore: I said that it was a sticking plaster, and education, precisely because such constitutional because it dealt with just one aspect of a broader arrangements determine how power is distributed in principle. I accept the direct consequence of the YL our country—where and how it is located and what the case for care homes, but the judgment has much wider process should be for changing that location. Given that implications. Also, will the Minister indicate the time these questions are about power, they determine how scale for the consultation? every other question in our national life will be answered. Mr. Wills: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend. We believe that this is the right time for a debate I remember now why I disagreed with him. about whether we should have a new Bill of Rights and Responsibilities, potentially leading to a written constitution, 4.16 pm and that that debate should be had extensively and Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House. comprehensively with the British people. At the heart of the Government’s Green Paper is a central question: are 5.41 pm there rights and responsibilities, over and above those On resuming— entrenched in the Human Rights Act, that are so fundamental to our society and sense of ourselves that Mr. Wills: As hon. Members will recall, I was talking they should be entrenched in a way that renders them about the Human Rights Act 1998, and I wanted to part of our constitutional fabric and not easily vulnerable pick up on a few of the points that were made about it to the vagaries of party politics and elections? in the debate. The hon. Member for Cambridge and the We specifically did not raise the subject of the Human right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, who is Rights Act, in this context, as a matter for debate. In my sadly no longer in his place, criticised the way in which view, the Act is not strictly relevant to the subject of this the Government have promoted and defended it. They debate, but because it was raised so often, I shall, with said that we have not done so, but I am afraid they are your indulgence, Miss Begg, address some of the points profoundly misinformed. made about it. The Government are proud to have We have an active rebuttal unit in the Ministry of introduced the Act and do not resile from it at all. It has Justice. When myths and misperceptions about the 1998 Act already proved itself to be of enormous benefit to the are promulgated in the press and elsewhere, we robustly people of this country, be they powerful newspaper rebut them. We defend the Act, as I have today. Above magnates, powerful campaigning organisations, such as all, we set up the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Countryside Alliance, or ordinary individuals seeking not only to defend the Act, but to do the job of the protection of the Act—for example, vulnerable, promoting a human rights culture in this country. That elderly couples seeking to spend their last years together, is profoundly important for the all the reasons that right potentially separated by a state institution, but able to hon. and hon. Members have given. We agree with remain together through recourse to the Act. It contains everything that has been said about the importance of profoundly important protections for every individual human rights in this country, which is why we set up the in this country, and we do not think, therefore, that the EHRC with a £70 million budget, to try to ensure that matter needs to be debated. That is why—I say this in the people of this country understand the importance answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon—we of human rights. did not include the question of the scope of the Act Although the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate within the consultation. We shall consult on it separately, may disagree about some of the practical implications, because it is a separate issue, in this context, and so even he and his party would agree on the fundamental should be dealt with separately. importance of human rights. We are committed to the 1998 Act and to ensuring that there is a human rights Mr. Burrowes: The Minister has extolled the supposed culture in this country that properly embeds fundamental virtues of the Human Rights Act. So why are the protections of the freedoms and liberties of the individual Government consulting on it separately? What is the against the state. In the end, that is what it is about, and rationale behind that? If it does not need changing, why we know from recent history in Europe and elsewhere consult on it? just how fundamental it is. That brings me neatly to point made by the hon. Mr. Wills: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Member for Enfield, Southgate, who described the enabling me to clarify my point. I said that we are trampling of liberties. I do not want to go case by case consulting on the scope of the Act. He might recall that over the examples that he gave—they have been the my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon referred to the subject of elaborate debate in the House and elsewhere—but YL case, which was heard in the House of Lords and I want to refer him to the estimable Convention on dealt with the scope of the Act. As my hon. Friend has Modern Liberty, which has already been cited in the 337WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 338WH

[Mr. Wills] What are the limits of the rights of the individual against others? How far can the state arrogate to itself debate. Like me, many of his party took part in its the power to act on individuals’ behalf? Incidentally, deliberations. He will be well aware of the approach the state is not always the enemy of the individual. The that the convention took. history of this country shows how well the state can be The contribution of Lord Bingham, one of the most the guarantor of the rights of the most vulnerable in distinguished jurists in recent years in this country, is our society. The national health service and our wider enshrined on the convention’s website. It was lauded by welfare system are part of the state in that context. In a almost every speaker at the convention and certainly by democracy, what are the proper limits on the power of the organisers, who took it as one of the finest contributions the majority? The hon. Member for Cambridge has of that important day’s deliberations and debates. I often and eloquently described the importance of that draw these remarks to the attention of the hon. Member question in the production of a decent and civilised for Enfield, Southgate in particular. In his much-acclaimed society. contribution to the convention, Lord Bingham said: This is not really a debate about whether to protect “It seems clear that the last half century has seen an erosion of individuals but about how best to do so. That brings values once held dear.” into play the question of economic and social rights. We So far, I think that the hon. Gentleman would agree—I know that most of the rights—to education, health hope that he would. Lord Bingham went on to say: care, housing and the other things described by my hon. “This is not the work of one party or one government, certainly Friend the Member for Hendon—that would be covered not of the present government which in enacting the Human are already given and protected in various bits of statute Rights Act coming into office took the single most powerful step dotted throughout our constitutional arrangements. He in another direction”. mentioned housing—he has been active and diligent on That is why the Human Rights Act is so important, and that matter—but he did not mention, for example, all why it is important that it is not tampered or trifled with the action that the Government have taken already to in any way. protect home owners and vulnerable families. I will briefly run through our actions to show that there are The hon. Gentleman quoted Lord Hoffmann in a other ways of protecting those issues that do not necessarily recent speech. I am aware of that speech, and I was require constitutional entrenchment. interested by the hon. Gentleman’s characterisation of what the speech said. I do not want to linger too much The matter is one for proper debate, but that debate is on this point, though, as I wish to move on to the not about whether vulnerable people should be protected substance of the debate, which is the Green Paper on in such matters but about how best to protect them. I the bill of rights and responsibilities. shall run through some of the action that we have taken and then point out the need to address the question of Mr. Dismore: The Committee report, actually. whether we should go further to provide some sort of constitutional protection in this and other areas. Mr. Wills: The Committee report; sorry. I stand corrected, quite rightly, by my hon. Friend. Mr. Dismore: Will the Minister give way? I draw the attention of the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate to what Lord Hoffmann said in his speech: Mr. Wills: I shall, but first I want to remind my hon. Friend of some of the wonderful things that we have “I have no difficulty about the text of the European Convention done. We introduced the home owner mortgage support or its adoption as part of United Kingdom law in the Human Rights Act 1998.” scheme, which enables eligible borrowers to reduce their monthly mortgage interest payments to affordable levels That is the learned Lord Hoffmann, now a mentor to for up to two years. We have made changes to the the Conservative party in formulating its policy. That eligibility criteria for income support for mortgage interest. mentor said: We have produced a mortgage arrears pre-action protocol, “There is nothing to be gained by fiddling with the language.” housing arrears pre-action scheme pilots and so on. We As yet, I have heard no contribution from the Conservative have taken a range of actions to try to protect some of party suggesting anything other than that the Conservatives the most vulnerable people and to ensure that they get are going to fiddle with the language of the Human the housing that they need. Rights Act. I commend their mentor’s words to them and hope that they will be guided by them. Mr. Dismore: When I was talking about home Moving on to substance of the debate, should we repossessions, I mentioned the fact that the Government move beyond the Human Rights Act and build on it? have taken a number of initiatives that have led to a Are there rights, protections and responsibilities so reduction in the estimated number of repossessions. fundamental to our way of life, our society and our However, there is no overarching, underpinning right, sense of ourselves in this country that they should be which is what we are arguing for. Furthermore, will he entrenched in a way that renders them not susceptible support my Bill tomorrow? or easily vulnerable to the vagaries of party politics and elections? These are profound questions, particularly Mr. Wills: I am sure that my hon. Friend, as always, now, when so much that we have taken for granted in will make a valuable contribution when he introduces recent years clearly can no longer be taken for granted. his Bill, but I am afraid that, as always, some issues will They are also difficult questions. Rights and freedoms need to be resolved before we can support it. As ever, always carry with them the cost of conflict and raise though, he makes a valuable contribution to the debate. agonisingly difficult questions, precisely because they He identified the important issue: there is no overarching are about power and the distribution of power in society. or underpinning right. But should there be? That is the 339WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 340WH precise debate that we need and want to have. And we The challenge is how better to remind people of the have begun it in Parliament today—again, I thank him importance of individual responsibilities and give them for bringing it forward. greater prominence. Individual rights must be promoted I want to make three brief points, the first of which is and protected without losing sight of the essential about the role of responsibilities. We have heard a lot contribution of responsibilities to collective harmony about that, and as always whenever a Minister mentions and prosperity. responsibilities in this context, there is a sharp intake of breath among all those who believe in the importance David Howarth: The difficulty is that the Minister of human rights. It is seen as code for abandoning the does not specify what the link is. He keeps talking about key principles that underpin human rights—such concerns a link, but he has said that it is not a legal link and that have been expressed today, particularly by the hon. there is no conditionality. From his argument, it seems Member for Cambridge—but it is nothing of the sort. that the only link is some sort of public relations or Many decent, tolerant people whose lives are made propaganda link and that somehow talking about wretched by crime and antisocial behaviour are concerned responsibilities will change the attitudes of people who that human rights legislation means that those making do not like the Human Rights Act. I cannot see how their lives a misery are immune from the consequences. that works. All hon. Members have probably heard similar concerns at meetings in their constituencies. As we know, such Mr. Wills: The hon. Gentleman is a very distinguished perceptions are given currency by irresponsible and lawyer who knows how the Human Rights Act works. inaccurate reporting in sections of the media. It needs He knows that concepts of proportionality are inherent to be said that, as all hon. Members in the Chamber in that Act and in all human rights instruments. He also know, those perceptions are incorrect. However, that is knows that the concepts of balance are inherent in such no reason to be complacent, and we would be rash to measures. How those concepts should be characterised— hope that such misperceptions will not take root. They whether they are identical or whether they overlap or can and they do. We need to—and we do—work constantly overlay the idea of responsibility—is a matter for debate. to expose such myths. David Howarth: Will the Minister give way? Sir Alan Beith: But should the answer to that acknowledged misperception be to create a situation in which rights become contingent, other than through the Mr. Wills: If the hon. Gentleman could give me a criminal law, on behaving responsibly? chance to develop the argument, he can then tell me why he thinks that I am wrong. In the meantime, I ask Mr. Wills: I agree that that is not the answer, but that him to consider these points. At this stage, we are is not what we are arguing for. I think that the right hon. launching a debate. We are not prescribing an outcome Gentleman was kind enough to quote me stating that or setting out what the Bill should say; we are inviting rights are not contingent. However, I want to develop contributions from the public at large—certainly from this important point. It is right that the relationship the House—about what we should do about the matter. between rights and responsibilities is scrutinised. It is These are complex and difficult questions for all the important to get that right. It is a subtle and sophisticated reasons that I have given, and, in different ways, every relationship and so subject to misinterpretation. contributor to the debate has also said that. We need to have a discussion and a debate about the matter. If he I accept that the Government must play a central role thinks that we should do things differently, he should in explaining better the intellectual framework of the say so—but not right at this moment. I would like to legislation and how concepts of proportionality and develop my argument a little further and then I will balance are inherent in the Human Rights Act and happily to give way to him. human rights generally. Human rights legislation does not protect wrongdoers from the law. It gives them the The solutions can come in a whole range of forms—they right to a fair trial, which we all accept is fundamentally could be ethical, political or legal. They may or may not important in this country, but it does not prevent them include prescriptions about the relationship between from going to jail or being punished in other ways. We rights and responsibilities. All those wise men and women need to make the case that rights are indeed accompanied who were responsible for drafting the great human by responsibilities. To repeat the point, rights are not rights instruments have no such fear of discussing the contingent on responsibilities—they are accompanied role of responsibilities, and they have woven them through by them and balanced by them. their drafting. I shall quote briefly from some of the human rights instruments to show that such an opinion As the Green Paper, “Rights and Responsibilities: has not been invented. I quote from one of the previous developing our constitutional framework”sets out—again, contributions to a new Labour debate. Article 17 of the I commend the document to all hon. Members—the European convention on human rights states: concept of the responsibilities that we owe one another has a long, distinguished intellectual history and is “Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity inherent in all instruments of human rights. I shall or perform any act aimed at the destruction on any of the rights quote briefly from the Green Paper: and freedoms set forth herein or at their limitation to a greater “The idea of the link between rights and responsibilities is not extent than is provided for in the Convention.” new, either in theory or in practice. In our daily lives we owe Article 29 of the universal declaration of human rights responsibilities to the state and to each other. Some of these are states: moral, and are rightly not a matter of legal duty or sanction; many others already exist in our legal system, in statute, in “Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free common law and through convention.” and fully development of his personality is possible.” 341WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 342WH

[Mr. Wills] this area only if we can establish a broad consensus. That is what this debate should be about and I believe The preamble to the American declaration of the rights that it has been about that today. I welcome that and and duties of man states: congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon “The fulfilment of duty by each individual is a prerequisite to for giving us the opportunity to have this discussion. the rights of all.” I could quote at great length on the matter. The point is 6.3 pm clear: this is a proper subject for debate, and that is what Mr. Dismore: I do not want to delay hon. Members we are asking for. We are asking for contributions from for too long, but I would like to respond to a few points. the public and hon. Members about what the solutions The first is the issue of rights and responsibilities. I tend to this issue should be. to agree with the Liberal Democrat party on that issue, The second area of debate that we should engage on rather than the Minister. Unless there is conditionality, is whether the Human Rights Act is sufficient or whether the responsibilities do not amount to a great deal. We we need to go further. Should we be complacent about all accept that conditionality cannot be used in these our rights? Since the last great reforms of the suffrage, circumstances. As I said when introducing the debate, I the development of the welfare state in the 20th century have no problem with a general aspirational preamble and the formulation of human rights in the wake of the along the lines of the historic documents read out by atrocities of totalitarian regimes in the past century, the Minister. However, when we start to talk about the there has not been an overwhelming demand for new duty to send one’s children to school, we get into the rights in a constitutionalised way—rather, the debate realm of the ridiculous, which could undermine the has been about how best to entrench the rights and whole concept and make it a laughing stock. freedoms that we have and to render them more accessible. I would like to answer the points raised by the right After all, the Human Rights Act 1998 was not about hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) creating new rights, but about bringing them home. It on social and economic rights. I am still not sure was about giving British people a chance to enforce whether he understands what we are arguing for. those rights in a British court, rather than in Strasbourg. Incidentally, the housing case from South Africa that I We have not discussed the advantages of that at length, could not remember the name of was Grootboom. Our but it brings considerable advantages for the citizen draft Bill puts forward three suggestions on housing. because, as hon. Members know, it gives British courts The first is clearly aspirational: a greater margin of appreciation than they would “Everyone has the right to adequate accommodation appropriate otherwise have. to their needs.” Do we need to go further to entrench the rights that That would have relevance only in relation to progressive we have? The admirable Joint Committee on Human realisation. We would expect the Government to report Rights report suggests that we do. The Government to Parliament about the progress towards achieving that have indicated openly that we are willing to take this goal annually. We suggest two other rights: question to the public. Nothing is immutable. Our “Everyone is entitled to be secure in the occupancy of their rights and freedoms are the fruit of specific historical home.” circumstances, as the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate suggested. The times we are living through are sufficient and evidence of that. “No one may be evicted from their home without an order of a court.” Finally, we must discuss how any new constitutional expression of our rights and responsibilities should be Those are not progressive realisation rights, but interpretive given effect. There are serious arguments for and against rights. When courts come to interpret common law or making them directly judiciable by giving people direct statute law, it would be underpinned by the need to give cause of action in the courts. It is politically illiterate to effect to such rights. argue that unless all the provisions of a new Bill are We suggest two rights on health care. The first states: directly judiciable, it would be worthless. The Select “Everyone has the right to have access to appropriate health Committee did a very good job of teasing out these care services, free at the point of use and within a reasonable arguments and have come forward with a solution that time.” will provide an important contribution to this debate. That is another aspirational right that would rely on I repeat that things do not necessarily have to be progressive realisation, with the Government reporting enforceable in law to have legal effect. The hon. Member annually. The second is: for Enfield, Southgate did me the courtesy of quoting “No one may be refused appropriate emergency medical treatment.” from an article that I wrote, although not wholly in That is a clear hard right that could be subject to approving terms. None the less, I ask him to consider judicial review if it were refused, but it is not directly this point: words really do matter, but they are not enforceable in itself. We accept that we cannot make always connected to meaning. Language can obfuscate, such matters fully judiciable, but we can make them confuse and deceive, but it can also crystallise understanding interpretive, and that is how we will underpin those and inspire us. The courts are not the only source of general rights. As for my right hon. Friend’s point about action and progress in our society. How impoverished housing, we have particular rights, ideas and aspirations would our political discourse be if the only way that our that feed into that. However, we have to interpret what politics could have any effect on society was through some of those things mean. For example, if there was a laws? judicial review about whether somebody was entitled to These are not easy questions, but profoundly difficult a particular benefit or scheme that the Government ones. I welcome the range of views that have been have announced, then that would be underpinned by expressed today. As a society, we can move forward in the right of the court to interpret those schemes in 343WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 344WH accordance with the basic rights set out in the Bill of Then there is the question of whether it is the constitution Rights. That is why we have to square the circle and or the Bill of Rights and whether it is the same document provide the constitutional underpinning. or a different document. Again, they are different issues, There was a suggestion about old and new rights. The but there is a degree of overlapping. For example, one hon. Member for Cambridge asked whether this was of the key themes of the Human Rights Act 1998 is the the right time for such a Bill. I would say that it is the way in which it operates within the constitutional settlement right time. The time to bring in such legislation is when through, for example, the declarations of incompatibility. people feel insecure in themselves, in their homes and in That is a very neat squaring of the circle, which we build their economic position. That is when the issues on on in our report in relation to the Bill of Rights. We social and economic rights come into their own. Like cannot have one without the other, and we have to show me, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman holds surgeries how it fits into the overall jigsaw. That is where that in which constituents say, “My rights have been infringed.” melds together. Those are the social and economic rights about which I am grateful to my right hon. Friend’s constructive we have been talking. They are the underpinning that, response to the debate. I do not think that I need to at present, does not exist. We should look at that matter comment particularly on anything that he has said now because we need to build on the debate about the other than what I have said already. However, I would Human Rights Act 1998. The Government failed in one say that the EHRC was a very welcome development, respect of the Act. It was not that it was the wrong thing and that if had been in place at the time of the Human to do, but that they did not go out to sell it from the Rights Act, we would not be in the mess that we are in start. Ever since then, we have been trying to play in relation to selling it to the public. catch-up, whether it be through myth busting, rapid rebuttal teams, worthy speeches that can be ambivalent Mr. Wills: I sense that my hon. Friend is about to sit or through being undermined by some Ministers who down and I just wanted to make an apology. He raised a do not understand what we are talking about. I am couple of questions in his debate, which, because of the talking about not the present Ministers but past Home long delay, I did not answer. I felt that I should just put Secretaries, who have said some rather peculiar things on the record two things on the record. First, he asked that feed popular misconceptions. when our consultation paper on the scope of the Human How do we move the debate forward? We must make Rights Act 1998 will be published. The answer to that is the whole concept of human rights more relevant to “soon”. Secondly, I should put on the record, which I people’s daily lives. We have tried to do that by some of omitted to do earlier—I offer my apologies for that—the the work that we have done in the Committee on the degree of engagement with the devolved Administrations. right to health care in care homes, or on adults with My hon. Friend has many, many qualities, so I was learning disabilities. We have shown how the Human surprised that he took at face value a representation Rights Act 1998 can be used to improve services. The made to him by a Minister from the SNP, that there had other way of doing it is looking at rights that mean not been proper engagement between the UK Government something to people in their everyday lives, which are, and the Scottish Executive on the issue. of course, the social and economic rights. May I give him the facts? Officials visited Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh in September and October 2008— David Howarth: I do not disagree with anything the well before the Green Paper was published—to talk to hon. Gentleman has said. The danger is in not what he their counterparts in the devolved Administrations. There is saying, but what other people might do given the are still regular contacts to update devolved Administration opportunity to tear into the Human Rights Act. He has officials on the progress. The Justice Secretary has also one trajectory that I might approve of, but others would spoken and written to the First and Deputy First Ministers use that opportunity for different sorts of change of in September last year. On Northern Ireland, twice I which he and I would not approve. have met Monica McWilliams, who, as my hon. Friend knows, is the chair of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. So there have been extensive contacts Mr. Dismore: I find that a rather hard argument to from the moment we were in a position to have a follow. The hon. Gentleman calls it, “the Human Rights substantive dialogue with the devolved Administrations, Act in disguise.” Let us remember that the press have and we will carry on. used the Human Rights Act to their advantage on many occasions, such as in freedom of the press issues, which Miss Anne Begg (in the Chair): Order. As it was an come from the right of freedom of expression. So, there intervention, I think the hon. Member for Hendon has are double standards by the media, and there always the right to continue. will be. If we talk about things that are relevant to people’s everyday lives, that will chime with the public if Mr. Dismore: I have two responses to the Minister’s not with some of the right-wing tabloid press. comments. First, he could be a little clearer on what The hon. Member for Cambridge talked about the “soon”means—in particular, hopefully before the summer mixing of the universal human rights and the civil recess. As far as the autumn of 2008 is concerned, that rights of the citizen. I agree that there is a bit of mixing was after we published our report, drawing attention to up. Inevitably, there will be blurring around the edges, the fact that there had been no engagement with the but that is something that we draw out and identify in Scottish Executive. That was what they told us when we the report. There will be some rights—such as the right saw them in preparation of our report earlier in 2008. I to vote—that are those of the citizen, and there will am pleased that my right hon. Friend has taken on our others that are universal rights. However, that does not recommendations from the report, which was published mean that they do not all belong in the same document, in the summer of 2008, through to what he has done because they do. that autumn. 345WH Bill of Rights (UK)25 JUNE 2009 Bill of Rights (UK) 346WH

Mr. Wills: Just to repeat the point that I made earlier, the convention would still apply to us, whether or not it we consulted as soon as there was something to consult is incorporated in the 1998 Act. That position, unfortunately, about. Until there was something to consult about, even simply does not stand. my hon. Friend would not expect us to be consulting. The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate says that the Conservative Bill of Rights would say how the Mr. Dismore: There was a previous constitutional ECHR applies to UK citizens. Frankly, that would not paper published the year before, which sparked off our work unless we leave the convention. They can fiddle debate. I think we have made our points about that. around with it as much as they like, but it would not The last thing I would like to say before I sit down is make any difference as a substantive law. All it would in response to the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate mean is that our courts would not be able to interpret (Mr. Burrowes). He is a nice chap, very intelligent, and I the convention. It would not stop Strasbourg interpreting get on very well with him, but he must have been the convention. It may well be that the margin of embarrassed by the intellectually incoherent position appreciation that we now have through the UK courts that he has had to advance on behalf of his party. would be lost when the cases end up, inevitably, in Strasbourg. The Conservatives have nothing to say I still find it difficult to understand what the Conservatives about the detail of what they would put in place of the are saying about the Strasbourg court. Are they saying, Human Rights Act, other than a general assertion that for example, that they do not want to be bound by the they would fiddle with the wording. There is no detail decisions that directly affect the UK, in which case we about what wording they would like changed. That would have to withdraw from the convention? Are they point was put by my right hon. Friend the Minister in saying that we do not want to be bound by decisions an intervention to the Conservative Front Bench. He against other countries, in which case it would only be a asked what particular wording of the Human Rights matter a time before we are caught by them anyway, and Act they would like to change and the hon. Member for would have to change our law? The best example of Enfield, Southgate had no answer. Unless and until the that—it is one of the hard cases—is to do with the Conservative party has an answer, we cannot make removal of undesirable terror suspects, which has been much sense of its incoherent position. a long-standing issue before the European Court of The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate asked whether Human Rights. I think it was a Dutch case where we we have brought human rights home with the Human were interveners. Or are they simply saying, “We do not Rights Act. Bringing it home is the right way to put it, want anything to do with the Strasbourg Court at all”, because it was drafted, in large part, by a British lawyer, in which case, we would be out of the Council of David Maxwell Fyfe QC, on the inspiration of Winston Europe arrangements in relation to that matter? Churchill no less, both of whom, I understand, were That is a completely incoherent position. Either we Conservatives. When we brought those rights home subscribe to the European convention on human rights under the Human Rights Act, we enabled our courts to and its methods of enforcement, which ultimately is the enforce what are effectively British values and traditions, Strasbourg court, or we do not. We should not think which have been adopted by Europe. We are not taking that fiddling around with the Human Rights Act 1998, from Europe a dictatorship of the Council of Europe which he said has exacerbated the problem, is going to and certainly not the European Union in that respect. help—exactly the opposite. If they fiddle around with They have taken our ideas. We have simply repatriated substantive parts of the 1998 Act, which is the convention, those ideas, as they should have been in the first place, which in turn is incorporated in the Act through its for enforcement through our own courts. schedules, effectively, what they are saying is that we are Question put and agreed to. resiling from the terms of the convention itself. If we do that, either we leave the Council of Europe, or we get 6.16 pm turned over by the Strasbourg court anyway, because Sitting adjourned. 65WS Written Ministerial Statements25 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 66WS

I am grateful to the current chair and board of Written Ministerial Firebuy for the work they have done and for agreeing to have had their terms of office extended to November Statements 2009 while the review was under way. A new board for the NDPB will be required from that date to reflect the Thursday 25 June 2009 new role of the organisation. Recruitment of the board will commence in the summer of 2009, including representation from the key stakeholders. TREASURY

Double Taxation Convention (United Kingdom and ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Belgium) EU Energy Council The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen Timms): A new protocol to the Double Taxation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Convention with Belgium was signed on 24 June 2009. and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): I am writing to The text of the protocol has been deposited in the update the House about the recent Energy Council in Libraries of both Houses and made available on HM Luxembourg on 12 June. The UK was represented by Revenue and Customs’ website. The text will be scheduled Andy Lebrecht, the UK’s Deputy Permanent Representative to a draft Order in Council and laid before the House of to the EU. Commons in due course. As expected, the Council discussed and agreed the Commission’s proposal for a revision of the Council COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Directive on Oil Stocking (Council Document 15910/08). The directive will align the EU to International Energy Agency regulations, and increase the EU’s resilience to Firebuy Ltd disruptions in oil supply. This was followed by a report from the presidency on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for progress on the three energy efficiency directives currently Communities and Local Government (Mr. Shahid Malik): being negotiated by the Council and Parliament. These I should like to inform the House that, in the light of are related specifically to Labelling (Council Document our review of national procurement in the fire and 15906/08), Tyres (Council Document 15920/08), and rescue service (FRS) in England, we propose to make a Buildings (Council Document 15929/08). number of changes affecting Firebuy Ltd, the professional Finally, the Commission and presidency presented buying organisation for the service. information on a number of developments in EU external Firebuy Ltd was established as a non-departmental energy relations, including those with Russia, Ukraine, public body on 30 March 2006 to deliver the 2005-08 the Energy Community Treaty, OPEC, and the G8. national procurement strategy for the FRS. Within the Over lunch, Ministers had the first opportunity to current arrangements, Firebuy has been effective in discuss the potential location of the agency for the establishing national fire-specific procurement for vehicles co-operation of energy regulators which will be established and equipment and has delivered benefits for the service. by the third package of legislation on the EU’s internal There is a continuing need to drive procurement energy market. Slovakia, Romania and Slovenia have efficiency at a national level in the FRS, particularly in all put themselves forwards as candidates. As all received the light of targets for collaborative procurement set by roughly equal support from member states, further the Government’s operational efficiency programme and discussions will now take place. we believe that a national procurement body represents the best way to deliver fire-specific collaborative Road to Copenhagen (Public Awareness) procurement. This will be reflected in the revised national procurement strategy, which we intend to publish in July, taking account of responses to the consultation The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change last year and the recommendations of the operational (Edward Miliband): An ambitious international agreement efficiency programme. to tackle climate change will affect everyone in the UK, However, going forward there is a need to consider and is vital for our future security and prosperity. I the future role and structure of the body delivering am today publishing a pamphlet—“the Road to FRS national procurement, particularly given that the Copenhagen”—aimed at raising public awareness of Department must also make longer term provision for the international negotiations which culminate later managing ongoing FiReControl and Firelink contracts. this year at Copenhagen, and the key issues being We propose, therefore, that Firebuy’s functions should debated. In addition, the pamphlet provides practical in future be carried out within a larger organisation, advice for people on the actions they can take in their integrating national procurement with the management own lives to reduce their own carbon footprint and of the service contracts for the Fire And Resilience make a contribution towards reducing carbon emissions. programme (Firelink, FiReControl and New Dimension). I will be making arrangements for the pamphlet to be Firebuy already performs this function in respect of widely disseminated. Tomorrow I will be publishing a New Dimension. More detailed proposals for in-service detailed document explaining the UK’s aims for the management of the Fire and Resilience programme Copenhagen negotiations. will be set out in a consultation paper, which we will Copies of the pamphlet will be placed in the Libraries publish shortly. of both House. 67WS Written Ministerial Statements25 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 68WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Pitt Review (Progress Report)

UK Sustainable Development Commission The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): I have today placed in the House Library copies of an update report detailing the The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and progress the Government have made in implementing Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): The Prime Minister has the recommendations contained in Sir Michael Pitt’s approved the appointment of Will Day as the new chair report on the 2007 summer floods. A copy of the report of the UK Sustainable Development Commission (SDC). is also on the DEFRA web site at: www.defra.gov.uk/ This part-time appointment will take effect on 27 July environ/fcd/floods07.htm when Jonathan Porritt steps down after nine years as Significant progress has been made. We have published chair. a draft Flood and Water Management Bill for consultation, Will Day has a strong background in international and will develop firm legislative proposals in the light of development. He is the former chief executive of Care comments from Parliament and consultees. However, in International and has spent a significant amount of his advance of the Bill becoming law, we have taken immediate career based in Africa. In the UK he has held many action to help communities at risk of flooding. Since roles, including: chairman of BBC Children in Need, the summer 2007 floods we have for example: external adviser to the BBC Corporate Social Responsibility Increased Government funding from £600 million in 2007-8 to Board and non-executive director of South Kent NHS a forecast of £780 million for 2010-11, with an additional Hospitals Trust. £20 million brought forward into this year’s budgets to allow an early start to projects that will benefit 27,000 homes when complete. Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Completed 85 flood defence schemes, protecting nearly 58,000 Sciences (Performance Targets) additional homes in England. Operating authorities are currently on course to exceed delivery targets and provide better protection to 160,000 homes over the three years to March 2011. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Signed up 136,000 additional people to receive flood warnings Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Huw Irranca-Davies): in England and Wales. I have set the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Set up a £7.7 million flood forecasting centre, jointly run by the Aquaculture Science (CEFAS) the following performance Environment Agency and Met Office, which is already providing targets for 2009-10. important services to local authorities and emergency responders, helping them to be better prepared for potential flooding. Service delivery Announced a £5 million grant scheme for householders for Customer satisfaction to exceed 82 per cent. property-level flood protection like air bricks and door boards. To provide high standard of services to the satisfaction of I am announcing today the results of the first round of this customers. Measured through weighted average of customer scheme which will provide greater flood protection to nearly response to post-contract survey that covers seven aspects of 600 households in England. service quality. Incorporates project delivery metrics. Announced funding for 27 places for local authority participants Science quality indicators to exceed 75 per cent. in the existing Environment Agency foundation degree programmes and other local flood risk management training. This will help To enhance scientific capability and reputation, using indicators ensure that local communities have the expertise they need to grouped around research, wider dissemination and use of our help them protect themselves from flooding. science, and scientific capability. Measures include customer surveys, numbers of peer reviewed scientific papers and investment Provided the first allocations to six local authorities from the in new science. £15 million funding allocated to help the highest priority areas manage surface water flood risk. Progress on implementing the Value for public money first tranche as well as next steps on the remaining funds will Recover the full cost of our services be announced later this summer. To demonstrate financial sustainability through sound operational Announced £1 million funding for three projects to demonstrate financial management and appropriate investment in CEFAS’ how land management change and working with natural processes future, including the delivery of CEFAS’ transformation plan. can help protect against flooding. Measured through achieving an audited break-even result in Published a long-term investment strategy, the Environment 2009-10. Agency’s assessment of the costs and benefits of investment Effectiveness gains over the next 25 years given the latest projections of climate change. I am keen to encourage a public debate on how future To deliver £0.5 million of effectiveness gains, generated through funding needs are best met. a combination of non-DEFRA income growth, improvements Published a new policy statement on appraisal of flood and in project effectiveness and reduced overhead costs. coastal erosion risk management, to ensure better value for Capacity and capability money in the investment decisions made. Sustainability indicators to exceed 75 per cent. The Government have today announced that around To demonstrate a healthy and safe working environment, together 99 per cent. of those displaced by the summer 2007 with progress towards being an exemplar for sustainable development, floods are now back in their homes. We sympathise with through a range of indicators. those who for whatever reason have not yet been able to Staff satisfaction survey to exceed 65 per cent. return and are committed to ensuring the remaining To respect and help the agency’s people to develop. Measured families get back into their homes as soon as possible. by an annual questionnaire to staff, using a weighted scale for The Pitt progress report explains how we will complete the eight survey categories. implementation of Sir Michael’s recommendations, with Further details are given in the CEFAS business plan target dates. The risk of flooding remains and last 2009-10, a copy of which will be placed in the Libraries week’s publication of the UKCP09 climate projections of the House. underlines how it will increase in the future as a result of 69WS Written Ministerial Statements25 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 70WS climate change. The Government remain determined to Copies of the consultation will be placed in the make this country better able to anticipate and deal Library and the Vote Office. with the impacts of flooding. I will continue to keep the House informed of progress through future progress JUSTICE reports, the next of which will be due around the turn of the year. Freedom of Information Act 2000 Former Central Science Laboratory (Report and Accounts) The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael Wills): Today I have deposited copies of the “Freedom of Information Act 2000—Fourth Annual Report on The Minister of State, Department for Environment, the operation of the Freedom of Information Act in Food and Rural Affairs (Jim Fitzpatrick): The 2008-09 Central Government —2008” in the Libraries of both annual report and accounts for the Central Science Houses. Copies are also available in the Vote Office Laboratory was laid before Parliament today. and the Printed Paper Office and are available on the This is the final report and accounts for the Central internet at www.justice.gov.uk/publications/freedomof Science Laboratory which from 1 April 2009 became informationquarterly.htm part of the Food and Environment Research Agency. This is the fourth annual report analysing the performance of central Government in the fourth full year since the commencement of the Freedom of HOME DEPARTMENT Information Act. Today I have also deposited copies of the “Freedom Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 of Information Act 2000— Statistics on implementation in Central Government: Ql—January - March 2009” in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the the Libraries of both Houses. Copies are also available Home Department (Mr. Alan Campbell): I am pleased in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office. to announce that the 2008-09 annual report of the This is the quarterly monitoring statistics report analysing appointed person under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 the performance of central Government in the fifth full has been laid before Parliament today. The appointed year of freedom of information. person is an independent person who scrutinises the use of the search power introduced to support the measures PRIME MINISTER in the Act to seize and forfeit criminal cash. The report gives the appointed person’s opinion as to National Security Strategy the circumstances and manner in which the search powers conferred by the Act are being exercised. I am pleased that the appointed person, Andrew Clarke, has The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): I am today expressed satisfaction with the operation of the search laying before the House the first annual update to the power and has found that there is nothing to suggest National Security Strategy of the United Kingdom that the procedures are not being followed in accordance Security for the Next Generation (cm 7590), and the with the Act. Government’s first Cyber Security Strategy, Safety, Security From 1 April 2008 to the end of March 2009 over and Resilience in Cyber Space (cm 7642). £106 million in cash was seized by law enforcement The purpose of the national security strategy, published agencies in England, Wales and Northern Ireland under for the first time in March last year, is to bring together powers in the Act. The seizures are subject to further in a single strategic framework the Government’s analysis investigation, and the cash is subject to further judicially of, and response to, the full range of national security approved detention, before forfeiture in the magistrates risks—recognising that today more than ever these risks, court. These powers are a valuable tool in the fight and the underlying drivers, are increasingly interconnected against crime and the report shows that the way they and require a more co-ordinated approach. are used has been, and will continue to be, closely The 2009 update fulfils the Government’s commitment monitored. to report on activity and progress over the past year, Copies of the report will be available in the Vote from counter-terrorism, to military and civilian Office. support to Afghanistan, to peacekeeping and conflict resolution in a range of countries, and to combating Youth Crime Action Plan H1N1 influenza. The report also updates our assessment of the security challenges facing the United Kingdom, including a The Secretary of State for the Home Department detailed analysis of the implications of the current (Alan Johnson): In conjunction with the Secretary of global economic downturn, which has shown—and this State for Justice and the Secretary of State for Children, view is shared by our key partners and by external Schools and Families, I will today publish the summary experts—that so far the nature of the security landscape of responses form the Youth Crime Action Plan has not altered fundamentally, although we will need to consultation. remain vigilant, especially against the dangers of instability We received 86 responses, which are summarised in in already poor regions, or any trend towards protectionism. the document, with an outline of the initial Government The events of the past year have also reinforced the response to the issues raised. In due course we will importance of a strongly internationalist approach, and report progress on delivering the commitments in the the strategy update sets out detailed and ambitious YCAP, and next steps. plans for strengthening the international response to 71WS Written Ministerial Statements25 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 72WS the long-term global security risks arising from climate I am today announcing that the UK Government are in the change, poverty, and energy shortages, building on the course of concluding their negotiations with SNCF and SNCB concerted global action to stabilise the world economy to incorporate the existing tri-national Eurostar operations over the past year. into a single company. The UK Government, via London and Continental Railways Ltd, will have a substantial minority The report covers the different ‘domains’ in which shareholding in the new Eurostar company. Subject to further security challenges must be addressed, and identifies work and final agreement, this shareholding will be in the cyber space as one increasingly important domain in order of 40 per cent. which individual, commercial and state security can be Eurostar is the pre-eminent international passenger train operator. threatened, whether by other states, or terrorist or criminal This is recognised by the record 9 million passengers that used networks. We are therefore publishing, alongside the the service to travel between London and the continent last overall strategy update, the UK’s first national cyber year, following the opening of the High Speed 1 line from security strategy, outlining improvements to Government St Pancras International station. Eurostar is not only very successful service, but has also saved around 40,000 tonnes of structures, additional funding, measures to enhance our carbon dioxide emissions as a result of attracting extra travellers ability to detect attack, better risk assessments, programmes who would otherwise have travelled by plane since the move to to develop cyber security industrial capabilities and High Speed 1. workforce skills, and support and advice for individual The Government’s aim, as shareholders, have always been to citizens. provide Eurostar with the stability and sustainability to develop The Cabinet Committee on national security, its services on a properly stand-alone commercial basis, operating international relations and development oversees in a newly competitive market. delivery of the national security strategy. It takes advice The proposals under finalisation with SNCF and SNCB are from the expert national security forum. Parliamentary designed to achieve those objectives. scrutiny is provided by the Joint Committee on the The principal part of the discussions to be concluded is to national security strategy, which will start work this convert the present Eurostar operation, which is an unincorporated summer. The strategy is a comprehensive and transparent joint venture operating cooperatively but separately in the account of the risks the UK faces and the action we are three partner countries, into a single incorporated company. As such the UK will contribute to the new venture the assets taking to tackle them, and provides a basis for and interests of Eurostar (UK) Ltd, which is currently a Parliamentary and wider public debate on our national wholly-owned subsidiary of London and Continental Railways security priorities. Ltd. The company will have a strong board with an independent TRANSPORT chairman and independent non-executive representation, as well as UK and other partner shareholder representatives. Eurostar There will be proper shareholder rights and protections for the UK as a minority shareholder. The final terms remain subject to further work being undertaken The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport by the Eurostar management and final commercial agreement (Chris Mole): My right hon. and noble Friend the between the parties and a confirmation that SNCB will join Secretary of State for the Department for Transport, the new venture. I would expect to make a further announcement has made the following ministerial statement. on these matters later this year. 11P Petitions25 JUNE 2009 Petitions 12P

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Petitions Mr. Roger Williams, Official Report, 3 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 351 .] Thursday 25 June 2009 [P000377]

OBSERVATIONS Observations from the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills: BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The third Conciliation Committee Meeting on European Working Time Directive (Fire Fighters) amendments to the Working Time Directive ended without agreement on 27 April, concluding these negotiations. The Petition of residents of Brecon and Radnorshire, The Council and the European Parliament were unable and others, to agree, in particular on the issue of the individual’s Declares that the European Parliament’s proposed right to opt-out of the 48 our working week. The abolition of the opt-out from the European Working collapse sees the end of the European Parliament’s Time Directive poses a threat to the retained fire fighter proposal to phase out the opt-out in three years and system in the United Kingdom; and further declares means the existing Directive remains in force, including that the United Kingdom should maintain its right to the opt-out as it currently stands. opt out of the European Working Time Directive so that the retained fire fighters are able to continue with The Government were successful in our pledge to their commitment to the vitally important fire service. push for the retention of the opt-out as we understand The Petitioners therefore request that the House of the importance to UK workers of this right. Many, like Commons urges the Government to do all in their those in the retained fire service, choose to make use of power to preserve the right to opt out and to keep our this important flexibility and we are firmly of the view rural fire stations open. that this right should remain.

1003W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1004W Written Answers to Audio Equipment: Health Hazards

Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Questions (1) with reference to the answer of 6 May 2008, Official Report, column 746W, on MP3 players, what assessment he has made of the implications for his Wednesday 24 June 2009 Department’s policies of the findings of the Scientific Committee on Emerging and Newly Identified Health [Continued from Column 1002W] Risks on noise from personal music players; [279809] (2) with reference to the answer of 6 May 2008, Official Report, column 746W, on MP3 players, what HEALTH his Department’s policy is on the determination of safe levels of noise in relation to the use of personal music Alcoholic Drinks: Consumption players; [279832] (3) if he will take steps to increase levels of public Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health awareness of the potential effects on hearing of what estimate he has made of (a) male and (b) female listening to personal music players at high noise levels; average weekly alcohol consumption in each of the last and if he will make a statement; [279833] 15 years. [281277] (4) if he will take steps to encourage manufacturers Gillian Merron: Information about alcohol of personal MP3 players to provide users of such consumption is collected as part of the General players with information on levels of noise which may Household Survey (GHS), including average weekly damage hearing; and if he will make a statement; alcohol consumption. [279834] The following table gives the average weekly (5) whether his Department has had discussions with consumption for the last 15 years, broken down by manufacturers of personal music players on the gender. It should be noted that information on potential effects on hearing of their use; and if he will average weekly alcohol consumption is not collected make a statement. [279835] every year. Average weekly alcohol consumption (units), by sex for persons aged Gillian Merron: The safety and regulation of 16 and over, 1994-2006 consumer products, such as personal music players is, Men Women within Government, primarily a matter for the Unweighted Department of Business, Innovation and Skills. The 1994 15.4 5.4 Department welcomes the report of the European 1996 16.0 6.3 Union’s Scientific Committee on Emerging and Newly 1998 16.4 6.4 Identified Health Risks. The Department, advised by the Health Protection Agency, keeps under review the Weighted risks to health which may be attributed to various 1998 17.1 6.5 kinds of noise. The Department has no plans at present 2000 17.4 7.1 for an information campaign on the risks to hearing 2001 17.2 7.5 posed by the use of personal music players. 2002 17.2 7.6 20051 15.8 6.5 20062,3 14.8 6.2 Breast Cancer: Males 20062,4 18.7 9.0 1 2005 data includes last quarter of 2004-05 data due to survey change from financial year to calendar year. Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2 Results for 2006 include longitudinal data. (1) what steps he is taking to improve services for men 3 Original method. with breast cancer; [281626] 4 Improved method. Notes: (2) what recent representations he has received on 1. Weighting is a process in which GHS results are adjusted for [281637] non-response and to account for differences between the distribution breast cancer in men. of persons by age and gender; and region in the sample when compared to the population of Great Britain. Weighting is an improvement to the methodology from 1998; however, weighted data Ann Keen: No recent representations have been are not available before 1998, so cannot be supplied. received on male breast cancer. Source: The National Institute for Health and Clinical General Household Survey 2006: Smoking and drinking among adults 2006. Excellence (NICE) published “Improving Outcomes in An improved method to calculate alcohol Breast Cancer” guidance in 2002, which addresses consumption was introduced in 2006, this was done to services and treatments for breast cancer patients, reflect increases in wine glass size, the increased including men. alcoholic strength of wine and better estimates of the In February 2009, NICE also published guidance on alcoholic strengths of beers, lagers and ciders. This is the treatment and diagnosis of early and locally likely to mean that data for the years before 2006 advanced breast cancer, and advanced breast cancer, understates consumption levels. which complement the cancer service guidance. 1005W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1006W

Cancer: Surgery The following table shows the number of cases diagnosed in the UK in 2007 and 2008 by the Health Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for Protection Agency’s special pathogens reference unit. Health how many (a) prostatectomies and (b) cystectomies for cancer there were in the latest year for 2007 2008 which figures are available; and which NHS trusts performed (i) fewer than 10, (ii) between 10 and 39 and England 137 153 (iii) 40 or more such procedures in that year. [281584] Northern Ireland — 1 Scotland 20 9 Ann Keen: I refer the hon. Member to the written Wales 7 4 answer I gave to the hon. Member for South-West Grand total 164 167 Norfolk (Christopher Fraser) on 20 March 2009, Source: Official Report, column 1361W. A table showing Data provided by the Health Protection Agency as at 17 June 2009. the count of finished consultant episodes for cancer- related prostatectomy, prostatectomy and Departmental Energy cystoprosatectomy by trust in 2007-08, the latest year for which this information is available, has already been Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Health placed in the Library. (1) what estimate he has made of water consumption Chiropractic: Complaints on his Department’s office estate in (a) 2005-06 and (b) 2006-07, (i) in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Health member of staff; [280934] what recent discussions he has had with the General (2) what estimate he has made of the volume of Chiropractic Council on trends in the number of carbon dioxide emissions from offices in his complaints received regarding chiropractors; and if he Department in (a) 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08 (i) in total will make a statement. [281774] and (ii) per full-time equivalent member of staff; [280935] Ann Keen: Departmental officials have held (3) what estimate he has made of the energy discussions with the General Chiropractic Council consumed per full-time equivalent member of staff in about their plans for handling the steep recent increase his Department in (a) 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08; in the number of complaints received. [280936] Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence (4) what estimate he has made of the percentage of electricity used by his Department which was derived David Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for from renewable sources in (a) 2006-07 and (b) Health how many (a) members of the public, (b) 2007-08; [280937] health professionals, (c) journalists and (d) (5) what estimate he has made of the amount of representatives of patient or service user groups have waste arising from his Department in (a) 2006-07 and attended meetings of the Council for Healthcare (b) 2007-08 (i) in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent Regulatory Excellence since 1 January 2009. [280790] member of staff; [281022] Ann Keen: Since 1 January 2009, there have been (6) what estimate he has made of the volume of three Council meetings of the Council for Healthcare carbon dioxide emissions arising from road-based Regulatory Excellence. Over this period, one member transport used for administrative operations by his of the public, no health professionals, no journalists Department in (a) 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08 (i) in total and two representatives of patient or service user and (ii) per full-time equivalent member of staff; groups have attended Council meetings. Minutes and [281023] papers from Council meetings are available on the (7) what estimate he has made of the volume of Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence’s carbon dioxide emissions arising from air travel by staff website: in his Department in (a) 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08 (i) www.chre.org.uk/council/60/_and_www.chre.org.uk/ in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent member of council/59 staff; [281024] Dengue Fever Phil Hope: The Department and its Executive Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health agencies, NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency and what estimate he has made of the NHS’s expenditure Medicines (PASA) and the Medicines and Healthcare on the treatment of dengue fever in the last 12 months. products Regulatory Authority (MHRA) take part in [280698] the annual Sustainable Development in Government exercise, which enables Departments to report on their Gillian Merron: There has been no estimate made of activities against the sustainable operations targets national health service expenditure on the treatment of published in June 2006. For 2007-08, NHS Connecting dengue fever in the past 12 months. for Health was also included. Dengue fever does not naturally occur in the United The following figures detailed for 2006-07 total and Kingdom. Cases in the UK are imported and are full-time equivalent (FTE) and for 2007-08 totals (with associated with travel to areas where the disease is the exception of carbon emissions from air travel) have endemic, such as, South East Asia and the Indian been published as part of the Sustainable Development subcontinent, the Caribbean and South and Central in Government Report for 2007 and 2008. Copies of America. both reports have already been placed in the Library. 1007W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1008W

2006-07 2007-08 Unique visitors Page impressions Total Per FTE Total Per FTE January 2009 1,017,122 6,205,364 Water 21,746 6.9 17,765 6.74 December 2008 696,636 4,403,460 Consumption November 2008 874,024 5,578,886 (m3) October 2008 849,325 5,555,268 Carbon Emissions 6,753 1.698 8,635 2.321 from offices September 2008 772,629 4,717,921 (tonnes CO2) August 2008 580,293 3,647,145 Energy consumed 18,404,426 4,628 23,099,389 6,201 July 2008 806,832 5,122,615 (kWh) June 2008 964,577 5,883,074 Percentage of 99.9 — 80.8 — electricity derived Page impressions and unique visitors—The from renewable sources Department’s advisory bodies website for the last 12 Amount of waste 574 0.14 743 0.227 months is at: arising (tonnes) www.advisorybodies.doh.gov.uk Carbon dioxide 568 0.14 553 0.09 emissions arising Unique visitors Page impressions from road based transport (tonnes May 2009 20,370 130,202 CO2) Carbon dioxide 799 0.201 1,136 0.184 April 2009 20,791 119,795 emissions arising March 2009 22,928 151,785 from air travel February 2009 19,481 133,699 (tonnes CO2) January 2009 20,647 143,423 For the core Department, the information in this December 2008 19,872 156,840 answer (with the exception of carbon dioxide emissions November 2008 26,276 181,291 arising from road based transport and air travel) covers October 2008 26,374 190,170 the Department’s central administrative estate of September 2008 20,636 133,031 Richmond House, Wellington House and Skipton August 2008 18,387 126,039 House. The Department is a minor occupier in July 2008 22,968 137,455 New Kings Beam House (HM Revenue and Customs) June 2008 30,723 147,110 and Quarry House in Leeds (Department of Work Page impressions and unique visitors for the last 12 and Pensions) and the data for these sites is not months—NHS Choices website. available to us. Page impressions from November 2008 onwards The carbon dioxide emissions arising from road differ to those given in the answer of 4 February 2009 based transport and air travel cover the whole as these now include visitors and page impressions at: Department office estate including New Kings Beam House and Quarry House. www.selfhelpguide.nhs.uk For 2007-08, for the first time, NHS Connecting for which is hosted by NHS Direct although branded NHS Health (CfH) submitted data along with the Choices at: Department and our agencies NHS PASA and www.nhs.uk MHRA. In practice, however, MHRA and CfH were only able to provide limited information because they Unique visitors Page impressions occupy rented accommodation for which energy and water consumption data is not available. This means May 2009 5,295,640 32,013,540 that the 2007-08 FTE figures for water and energy April 2009 4,458,415 28,369,471 consumption are slightly skewed. March 2009 5,189,162 33,998,656 February 2009 4,300,217 29,763,052 Departmental Internet January 2009 4,264,746 29,422,915 December 2008 3,125,976 21,123,054 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for November 2008 3,231,224 22,916,827 Health pursuant to the answer of 4 February 2009, October 2008 2,421,293 14,362,161 Official Report, columns 1352-58W, on the September 2008 2,068,380 12,982,408 departmental internet, how many (a) unique visitors August 2008 2,017,496 13,004,201 and (b) page impressions were received by each website July 2008 2,154,660 14,488,807 operated by his Department in each of the last 12 June 2008 1,933,770 12,837,873 months. [280721] Notes: Unique visitors: the number of unique visitors that have entered a website Phil Hope: The information is as follows: within a given timescale. Thus, multiple visits within that given timescale are Page impressions and unique visitors for the last 12 not recorded. Page impressions: also known as ‘hits’, this is when a website page is displayed months—The Department’s website at: on a visitor’s browser. www.dh.gov.uk To provide the number of unique visitors and page hits for all other websites listed in the answer of 4 February 2009 would incur disproportionate costs. Unique visitors Page impressions Departmental Location

May 2009 957,734 5,479,933 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for April 2009 969,412 5,753,565 Health how much his Department spent on relocation March 2009 1,033,680 6,383,331 costs for new members of staff in each of the last three February 2009 924,026 5,642,052 years. [280775] 1009W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1010W

Phil Hope: For the financial year 2008-09, any Ann Keen: The Department has taken steps to relocation costs for new members of staff will be improve the outcomes of patients with fragility reported in the Department’s remuneration report, fractures with the appointment of a National Clinical which will be published as part of the 2009 resource Director for Trauma Care, Professor Keith Willett. He accounts in July. will play an important role in the development of For 2007-08, relocation costs of £41,900 were paid clinical policy for trauma care, including the care of on the resettlement of one new member of staff whose older people with fractures. overall benefits-in-kind were reported in the 2007-08 The Department is also working with stakeholders remuneration report and can be found on page 25 at: on a number of initiatives in support of the further www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ development of integrated falls and osteoporosis DH_089421 services including: For 2006-07 no relocation costs were incurred for working with the Royal College of Physicians and local new members of staff. services to take forward work to improve services for people who fall and are at risk of falling; Departmental Work Experience additional investment in DXA scanning bringing investment up to £20 million to increase capacity in osteoporosis services, resulting in waits over 13 weeks falling by 90 per cent.; and Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Health working, as part of the wider Prevention Package announced how many (a) paid and (b) unpaid graduate in May 2008, to encourage older people to exercise which internships his Department has awarded in each of the helps them to improve bone mass and provide general lifestyle last six months. [281518] messages, around diet, exercise, reducing smoking and avoiding excessive consumption of alcohol, which are helpful Phil Hope: The Department does not hold records in the prevention of osteoporosis. centrally of graduate internships, which may be In addition, the National Institute for Health and arranged locally and independently by individual Clinical Excellence has produced recent clinical managers in its directorates. guidelines on the use of drugs to prevent osteoporotic fractures in post-menopausal women. Elderly: Social Services John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what mechanisms his Department has in place for the Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State assessment of standards of care for people (a) at risk for Health with reference to page 12 of his of falls, fragility fractures and osteoporosis and (b) Department’s Resource Accounts for 2007-08, HC with fragility fractures and osteoporosis. [279636] (2007-08) 1042, for what reason his Department reported slippage against its target for increasing the Phil Hope: It is the responsibility of strategic health proportion of older people being supported to live in authorities, working in partnership with local their own home; to what extent the target was met in authorities, to commission appropriate standards of 2007-08; and if he will make a statement. [280974] care locally for people with, or at risk from, fragility fractures and osteoporosis. Phil Hope: The Department reported slippage in the 2007-08 Department’s Resource Accounts for the The Quality Care Commission have been given the number of older people helped to live at home. The power to monitor and inspect the provision of local number of older people as at 31 March per 1,000 had health and social care services, including pathways of decreased from 81 in 2005-06 to 80 in 2006-07 care or themes where there are particular concerns representing a decrease of 1.3 per cent. change. about quality. However, the data (when it became available in Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements December 2008) showed that by 31 March in 2007-08 the number increased to 81 representing an increase of 1.4 per cent. change. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what the largest (a) single and (b) There are a range of reasons to account for the aggregate claim for NHS treatment made by a carrier change, including the potential impact of increasing of a European Health Insurance Card was in each of the level of local eligibility criteria being met locally; an the last 10 years; [280858] increased local focus on shorter periods of rehabilitation; the increased use of support provided Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements through the voluntary sector such as grant funded services; and the improved information and (2) how much of the sums paid by the Government signposting to enable people to access appropriate and to other EU member states under the provisions of the relevant local support thereby reducing the numbers of European Health Insurance Card arose from treatment older people recorded as receiving “care managed” in each NHS trust in each of the last 10 years. [281109] services. Gillian Merron: The European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) allows the holder to access treatment that Fractures becomes necessary during a visit to another European Economic Area member state, not in the home state John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health itself. Therefore the sums paid by the United Kingdom what recent steps his Department has taken to improve to another member state in respect of the EHIC, relate the clinical management of patients affected by falls, to treatment provided in that member state, rather than fragility fractures and osteoporosis. [279635] by the national health service. 1011W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1012W

Hospitals Mumps

Mr. Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for Sex/age Health what guidance his Department provides to Male Female Unknown strategic health authorities on provision of information to those in the catchment area of hospitals on decisions 0-9 10-13 14-17 18+ 0-9 10-13 14-17 18+ 18+ to reduce levels of services at those hospitals. [282135] 2005-06 59 34 155 754 34 20 49 204 — Ann Keen: The Department provides no specific guidance to strategic health authorities on the 2004-05 51 15 105 467 21 15 58 189 — provision of information to those in the catchment area 2003-04 15 6 11 51 21 3 13 26 — of hospitals on decisions to reduce levels of services at those hospitals. These are matters for the local primary Rubella care trusts who have responsibility for involving service Sex/age users in the planning of services and development of Male Female Unknown proposals for change in services. 0-9 10-13 14-17 18+ 0-9 10-13 14-17 18+ 18+ Hospitals: Admissions 2007-08 8 — 1 4 8 — — 8 — 2006-07 5 — — 5 6 — — 6 — Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 9 — — 1 4 — 3 3 — Health how many hospital admissions there have been 2004-05 14 — 1 1 3 — 2 5 — for diagnosis code (a) T40.0, (b) T40.1, (c) T40.2, (d) 2003-04 13 — — 2 7 — 2 5 — Notes: T40.3, (e) T40.4, (f) T40.5, (g) T40.6, (h) T40.7, (i) 1. Finished admission episodes T40.8 and (j) T40.9 for (i) males and (ii) females aged A finished admission episode is the first period of in-patient care under one (A) under 14, (B) 14 to 17 and (C) 18 years and over in consultant within one health care provider. Finished admission episodes are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions (1) each region and (2) each primary care trust in each do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than of the last five years. [280478] one admission within the year. 2. Primary and secondary diagnoses The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and Gillian Merron: The information has been placed in seven prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Episode Statistics the Library. The information requested is shown in the (HES) data set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to tables by strategic health authority (SHA). Were the hospital. As well as the primary diagnosis, there are up to 19 (13 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and six prior to 2002-03) secondary diagnosis fields in Hospital data presented by primary care trust, the majority of Episode Statistics (HES) that show other diagnoses relevant to the episode of entries would be small numbers and would therefore be care. suppressed in order to preserve confidentiality. 3. Codes used to denote measles, mumps or rubella Measles B05.—Measles Mumps B26.—Mumps Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for Rubella B06.—Rubella [German measles], P35.0 Congenital rubella syndrome. If the patient has been admitted for treatment of measles, mumps or rubella, Health how many hospital admissions there have been then the code for measles, mumps or rubella would be found in a primary for (a) measles, (b) mumps and (c) rubella for (i) position, except in the following cases: males and (ii) females aged (A) under 10, (B) 10 to 13, a. Measles, mumps or rubella complicating pregnancy, childbirth and the puerperium; in this case, one of the following codes would precede the code for (C) 14 to 17 and (D) 18 years and over in (1) each measles, mumps or rubella: region and (2) each primary care trust in each of the O35.3 Maternal care for (suspected) damage to fetus from viral disease in last five years; and if he will make a statement. [280479] mother; and O98.5 Other viral diseases complicating pregnancy, childbirth and the puerperium. Gillian Merron: The available information is given in b. In the case where a baby is admitted due to measles, mumps or rubella the following tables. This covers activity in English acquired after birth but within 28 days of birth (perinatal period), a code from the following categories would precede the code for measles, mumps or rubella, national health service hospitals and English NHS which would be in a secondary position: commissioned activity in the independent sector. P35-P39 Infections specific to the perinatal period. 4. Data quality Count of finished admission episodes where the admission was for measles, HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary mumps or rubella care trusts (PCTs) in England. Data is also received from a number of Measles independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English Sex/age NHS. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data Male Female Unknown and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data 0-9 10-13 14-17 18+ 0-9 10-13 14-17 18+ 18+ via HES processes. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. 2007-08 147 5 10 37 114 4 12 27 — 5. Assessing growth through time HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and coverage of 2006-07 97 1 8 22 104 8 6 33 — the data have improved over time. These improvements in information 2005-06 36 7 5 11 38 3 2 7 — submitted by the NHS have been particularly marked in the earlier years and 2004-05 29 — — 10 25 — — 7 — need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. Some of the increase in figures for later years (particularly 2006-07 onwards) may be due to the 2003-04 42 3 — 10 38 5 3 10 — improvement in the coverage of independent sector activity. Changes in national health service practice also need to be borne in mind when Mumps analysing time series. For example, a number of procedures may now be undertaken in out-patient settings and may no longer be accounted for in the Sex/age HES data. This may account for any reductions in activity over time. Male Female Unknown 6. Ungrossed data 0-9 10-13 14-17 18+ 0-9 10-13 14-17 18+ 18+ Figures have not been adjusted for shortfalls in the data, i.e. the data are ungrossed. 2007-08 28 7 7 71 22 10 6 46 1 Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), the NHS Information Centre for health and 2006-07 36 14 18 136 25 4 6 61 — social care. 1013W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1014W

Infant Foods Phil Hope: In November 2008, David Nicholson, chief executive of the national health service, wrote to Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health all strategic health authorities (SHAs) to seek what estimate he has made of the cost to parents of (a) assurance that action is being taken across the NHS preparing and providing formula milk as the only or organisations in their area to promote disability main food for and (b) breastfeeding an infant from equality and to implement the recommendations in birth to six months of age. [281476] “Healthcare for All”, the report of Sir Jonathan Michael’s independent inquiry on access to healthcare Gillian Merron: Breast milk is the best nutrition for for people with learning disabilities. SHAs have since infants. Exclusively breastfeeding an infant from birth given a clear commitment to supporting and to six months of age involves negligible cost to parents. monitoring implementation of the independent inquiry We have estimated the amount of formula milk recommendations in their areas. required for infants from birth to six months based on The delivery plan for Valuing People Now, the energy requirements set by the Committee on Medical Government’s new three-year strategy for people with Aspects of Food Policy. learning disabilities, sets out the systems in place to At the current price the estimated cost for providing ensure improvements across all services, including formula milk as a sole food for infants from birth to six better health and healthcare for people with learning, months would be approximately £180 to £210. This disabilities. The national Learning Disabilities estimate excludes the cost of additional equipment Programme Board has overall responsibility for required for formula feeding such as the feeding assuring delivery of Valuing People Now. Each area bottles, teats and sterilisation equipment. has a local Learning Disability Partnership Board, which will report annually through their regional board Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health on the action they have taken. what assessment he has made of the effects of The Valuing People Now healthcare steering group, permitting the purchase of infant formula with Healthy which includes representation from the Care Quality Start Scheme vouchers on (a) attitudes towards Commission, has specific responsibility for overseeing breastfeeding and (b) the number of mothers who delivery of the commitments on better healthcare breastfeed. [281477] for people with learning disabilities. It is also working with SHAs to ensure that the ombudsmen’s Gillian Merron: The Department has not yet recommendations are met, including ensuring that all undertaken an evaluation of the attitudes of Healthy NHS organisations review the systems, capacity and Start beneficiaries towards breastfeeding, or of the capability they have in place to meet the needs of extent to which they purchase infant formula milk with people with learning disabilities and report on this by their Healthy Start vouchers. We are, however, March 2010. planning to commission research on the impact of the Individual cases should be considered at a local level, scheme on beneficiary behaviour during the current following the usual routes for redress, where financial year. appropriate. Healthy Start vouchers can be used to purchase infant formula milk because it is the only safe alternative to breast milk for infants who are not being breastfed. To exclude it from the scheme could put the babies of low income mothers who have chosen not to Local Involvement Networks breastfeed at severe risk. All communication materials for the scheme advise that breast milk is the best food Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for all infants under six months old. Midwives and what funding has been made available to local health professionals countersigning Healthy Start involvement networks in Stoke-on-Trent; and what application forms are asked to provide advice on assessment has been made of their effectiveness. healthy diet, including the importance of breastfeeding [281828] and to signpost relevant services.

Learning Disability Ann Keen: The allocation for 2008-09 made to the local authority for the Stoke-on-Trent local involvement network (LINk) was £0.61 million. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 1 April 2009, The legal duty to ensure LINk activities are carried Official Report, columns 1223-24W, on learning on rests with local authorities. It is their responsibility disability, by what date he expects NHS bodies and to make sure that the contract with the host councils with social services responsibilities to satisfy organisation provides that the support given to the themselves that failures similar to those identified by LINk ensures the LINk is as effective as possible. the Health Service Commissioner are not ongoing; how Each year LINks must produce an annual report he intends to assess progress in that regard; whether he setting out what they have achieved, the activities they has directed the Care Quality Commission to take the have undertaken, the money they have spent on their Commissioner’s report into account; what steps he activities and the impact they have had. Reports have plans to take to (a) implement and (b) monitor to be completed by 30 June and must be made publicly progress against the Commission’s recommendations; available. Copies have to be sent to the Department and and from which departmental budget payments for these will be analysed to see what, if any, additional compensation for distress will be drawn. [281110] national support would be appropriate. 1015W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1016W

Malnutrition Malnutrition: Screening

Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for for Health pursuant to the answer of 26 February 2009, Health how many NHS trusts have a nutrition (a) Official Report, columns 1028-29W, on malnutrition, in screening committee and (b) a support team. [280493] what ways the British Association for Parenteral and Enteral Nutrition’s recent report has contributed to his Gillian Merron: This information is not held Department’s work on (a) Dignity in Care, (b) centrally. Healthy Start, (c) Healthy Weight, Healthy Lives and (d) other relevant workstreams; and if he will make a Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [279371] Health what guidance his Department has issued to primary care trusts on the inclusion of indicators of Gillian Merron: The British Association for malnutrition in joint strategic needs assessments. Parenteral and Enteral Nutrition report launched [280500] January 2009 has contributed to the work of the Nutrition Action Plan Delivery Board; working to Gillian Merron: A core dataset is available on the improve nutrition and Dignity in Care in adult social Department’s website at: care settings and which in turn has underlined the importance in effective delivery of Healthy Start and www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_081097 the Healthy Weight, Healthy Lives programme. Mental Health Services: Children Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking in co-operation with other Government departments and agencies to Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for reduce levels of malnutrition. [281244] Health pursuant to the Answer of 18 May 2009, Official Report, column 1238W, on children: mental Gillian Merron: The Department and the Nutrition health services, how many of the young people placed Summit Stakeholder Group which comprised members on adult mental health wards in each year since from other Government Departments and key agencies 2005-06 were given medication while on such wards. collaborated to produce The Nutrition Action Plan [282012] 2008. This joint plan collectively addresses nutritional care within hospitals, care homes and the community Phil Hope: This information is not collected through the provision of ample and nourishing food, centrally. help with eating, modified diets and specialist tube feeding. NHS Connecting for Health: Expenditure

Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State what guidance his Department has issued to NHS for Health how much his Department has spent on (a) bodies on the diagnosis of malnutrition. [281245] staff, (b) office and (c) other costs incurred in respect of Connecting for Health in each year since 2004. Gillian Merron: The National Institute for Health [282039] and Clinical Excellence (NICE) issued clinical guidelines to national health service bodies on Mr. Mike O’Brien: Within the Department, NHS Nutrition Support in Adults in February 2006. This Connecting for Health, which came into being in April covered the care of patients with malnutrition or at risk 2005, is responsible both for central expenditure of malnutrition, both in hospital or at home. In necessary for ensuring delivery of the information addition, British Association for Parenteral and technology systems under the national programme for Enteral Nutrition (BAPEN) has developed guidance to information technology, and for maintaining the help hospitals and primary care trusts (PCTs) develop critical business systems previously provided to the their infrastructure to deliver improved food and national health service by the former NHS Information nutrition support services. Authority. The Malnutrition Advisory Group, a standing Relevant information covering all NHS Connecting committee of BAPEN published its second nutrition for Health’s responsibilities is shown in the following screening report on 12 May 2009. MUST is a five-step table. screening tool to identify adults, who are malnourished, at risk of malnutrition (undernutrition) £ million or obese. It also includes management guidelines which 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 can be used to develop a care plan. It is used in hospitals, community and other care settings and can Total (note 971.0 1,119.7 1,195.7 1,094.3 be used by all care workers. 1) Of which : 139.4 149.5 142.4 129.2 Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Staff if he will estimate the cost to the NHS of treating Office 9.4 9.3 8.9 7.9 Notes: diseases related to malnutrition in the last year for 1. Total capital and revenue (excludes capital charges). which figures are available. [281246] 2. ‘Staff’ covers the direct employment costs of permanent and temporary NHS personnel employed via the NHS Business Services Authority as host authority, secondees, contractors, and the manpower and non-manpower costs Gillian Merron: This information is not held of departmental civil servants. centrally. 3. ‘Office’ includes rents/rates, utilities, office equipment, furniture and fittings. 1017W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1018W

NHS Innovation Expo Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to page 40 of his Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Department’s document, “Healthy Weight, Healthy which companies have been contracted to provide Lives: One Year On”, of April 2009, whether services for the NHS Innovation Expo event; which individuals assessed as being underweight at an NHS services will be provided under each contract; and what health check will be referred onwards to nutritional the value of each contract is. [278484] support services. [280863]

Gillian Merron: The companies directly contracted Gillian Merron: The purpose of an NHS health to provide services for the Expo event, the services they check is to identify an individual’s risk of coronary are providing, and the value of each contract awarded heart disease, stroke, diabetes and kidney disease, for are as follows: this risk to be communicated in a way that the individual understands, and for that risk to be MIS—provision of event management services (three individual contracts, with values of £249,204, £231,075 and managed by appropriate follow-up. These diseases are £350,000—a combined total value of £830,279); and all linked by a common set of modifiable risk factors. Central Office of Information—provision of project Obesity, physical inactivity, high blood pressure and management and co-ordination (contract value £203,350), raised cholesterol levels all raise the risk of vascular and communications and media handling (contract value disease. While the NHS health check focuses on £100,000). reducing these risk factors in order to reduce the risk of vascular disease, health professionals carrying out the NHS: Cambridgeshire checks will of course have the opportunity to identify people who are seriously underweight and will be able to exercise their clinical judgment in referring them for Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State appropriate treatment or intervention. for Health what the NHS staff-to-patient ratio in (a) Cambridgeshire and (b) Peterborough was in each of Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State the last five years. [281686] for Health if he will make it his policy to publish the final report of the Nutrition Action Plan Delivery Ann Keen: This information is not held centrally. Board. [280899]

Nurses Phil Hope: When the Nutrition Action Plan was published in October 2007, the Department made a Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for public commitment that the final report of the Delivery Health if he will make an estimate of the number of Board would be published and placed on the families in receipt of assistance from the Family Department’s website. A copy of the report will also be Nursing Partnership scheme; and if he will make a placed in the Library. statement. [282081] Occupational Health Ann Keen: We are currently testing the Family Nurse Partnership (FNP) in 30 sites across England. Family Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health recruitment is ongoing, and we estimate these sites will what steps his Department is taking to implement the work with approximately 3,000 families. “Healthy lives, recommendations made in the Working for a Healthier brighter futures—the strategy for children and young Tomorrow report. [280748] people’s health” (published in February 2009) said the Government wished to expand to 70 pilot sites by Phil Hope: The Government response to Dame April 2011. Overall, this would allow capacity to Carol Black’s review of the health of the Britain’s deliver FNP to around 7,000 families. working age population “Working for a Healthier Tomorrow” was published on 25 November 2008 (Cm 7492). “Improving health and work: changing Nutrition lives” sets out the Government’s approach to working- age health and contains a programme of actions and Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State new initiatives to address the recommendations made for Health with reference to page 40 of his by Dame Carol in her review. Department’s document, “Healthy Weight, Healthy Lives: One Year On”, of April 2009, whether an Patient Choice Schemes: Expenditure assessment of an individual’s weight at an NHS health check will include an assessment with a nutritional Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State screening tool. [280862] for Health how much his Department has spent on the GP Systems of Choice programme in each year since Gillian Merron: National guidance to support local its inception. [282040] implementation of NHS health check programme does not recommend that a nutritional screening tool is used Mr. Mike O’Brien: GP Systems of Choice (GPSoC) as part of the risk assessment. However, where an was introduced in August 2007. To 31 March 2009, individual’s body mass index is considered to be a risk payments made to GPSoC suppliers totalled some factor in terms of vascular disease it is expected that £18.959 million. GP systems were in use by practices they will receive advice and support on managing their before GPSoC was introduced. Therefore these costs weight, which would cover both nutrition and physical would have been incurred by the national health service activity. regardless of whether or not GPSoC was introduced. 1019W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1020W

Sick Leave: Yorkshire Letter from Karen Dunnell, June 2009: As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Mr. MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for recent question asking what the rate of (a) conception and (b) Health what the rate of (a) absence and (b) absence pregnancy terminated by abortion was among those under the resulting from ill-health was among NHS employees in age of 18 years in Milton Keynes in each of the last five Yorkshire in 2008-09; what estimate he has made of the years.(280877) cost to the public purse of such absences; and if he will Figures on conceptions are estimates based on the number of make a statement. [281725] live births, stillbirths or legal abortions. They do not include miscarriages and illegal abortions. Ann Keen: The information requested is not held The table below provides the rate of (a) conceptions and (b) centrally. conceptions leading to a legal abortion, among girls aged under 18, for Milton Keynes unitary authority for 2003 to 2007 (the The Department recognises that high quality care most recent year for which figures are available). needs a high quality workforce, so in November 2008, Rate of (a) conceptions and (b) conceptions leading to a legal the then Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. abortion, among girls aged under 181, for Milton Keynes Unitary Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West and authority 2003 to 2007 Hessle (Alan Johnson), announced a review of the (b) Conceptions leading to health and wellbeing of the NHS Workforce. The (a) Conceptions: Rate a legal abortion: Rate per review is currently calling for evidence from employers, per, 10002 1,000 3 staff and key stakeholders. 2003 40.4 15.7 2004 41.6 18.6 Social Services: Learning Disability 2005 46.1 23.8 2006 44.5 22.8 Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for 20074 39.1 20.7 Health how many people with a learning disability 1 Under 18 years at estimated date of conception receive social care. [281484] 2 Number of conceptions to women under 18 per 1,000 female population aged 15-17 Phil Hope: During the period 1 April to 31 March 3 Number of conceptions to women under 18 leading to a legal 2008 126,000 adults aged 18-64 with learning abortion per 1,000 female population aged 15-17 disabilities and 14,000 adults aged 65 and over with 4 Figures for 2007 are provisional learning disabilities received a social care service funded either partly or wholly by their council with adult social services responsibilities (CASSRs) in Thrombosis England following a community care assessment. Data on the number of people receiving social services funded either fully or partially by CASSR in John Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health England are collected and published by the NHS when he expects venous thromboembolism to be Information Centre for health and social care as part of included in the NHS Operating Framework. [281662] the referrals, assessments and packages of care (RAP) return. Ann Keen: We expect venous thromboembolism (VTE) will be included in the 2010-11 national health Swine Flu: Medical Treatments service Operating Framework, which will be published later in the year. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of those diagnosed with swine John Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health influenza have been treated with (a) Tamiflu and (b) (1) what plans he has to develop a venous Relenza. [280632] thromboembolism prevention strategy; [281663] Gillian Merron: Health Protection Agency records, (2) what assessment he made of the merits of to date, suggest that 99 per cent. of confirmed H1N1 including venous thromboembolism risk assessment in cases are offered Tamiflu (Oseltamivir), and the full NHS list of indicators for quality improvement. approximately 1 per cent. are offered Relenza [281749] (Zanamivir). Ann Keen: The Department has a very Teenage Pregnancy: Milton Keynes comprehensive venous thromboembolism (VTE) prevention strategy in place at present. Under the Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for leadership of the Chief Medical Officer, many strands Health what the rate of (a) conception usage and (b) of work are being taken forward across a number of pregnancy terminated by abortion was among those organisations. under the age of 18 years in Milton Keynes in each of Indicators for Quality Improvement was launched in the last five years. [280877] May 2009 as a resource to support understanding and improving the quality of national health service Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. services. The initial list is based largely on existing The information requested falls within the indicators and will evolve over time to cover a fuller responsibility of the UK statistics Authority. I have range of NHS services as further indicators are asked the Authority to reply. identified and developed. 1021W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1022W

WORK AND PENSIONS Council Tax Benefit: Greater Manchester

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Cabinet: Glasgow Work and Pensions how many households in (a) Tameside and (b) Stockport receive 100 per cent. Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Work council tax benefit. [279759] and Pensions how many (a) special advisers and (b) officials of her Department accompanied her to Jonathan Shaw: The information is not available in Glasgow for the Cabinet meeting on 16 April 2009. the format requested. [273933] Departmental Billing Jim Knight: For information relation to the Cabinet and public engagement event held in Glasgow on 16 April, I refer the hon. Member to the answer given Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 3 June for Work and Pensions how much (a) her Department 2009, Official Report, column 487W. and (b) its agencies paid in interest to suppliers under the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998 in the last three years for which figures are Children: Maintenance available. [275191] Jonathan Shaw: An analysis of our central Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for accounting system for the three years requested has Work and Pensions how many parents have been shown the following amounts paid to suppliers by the prosecuted for (a) not providing information and (b) Department under the account code “Late Payment of providing false information to the Child Support Bills—Interest Paid”. The amounts are inclusive of Agency in each year since 2000. [278965] VAT.

Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 11 June 2009]: The £ Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have 2006 26,400 therefore asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner 2007 3,473 to write to the hon. Member with the information 2008 9,330 requested. Letter from Stephen Geraghty: The values are annual totals for the Department and In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the its agencies. Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as Departmental Data Protection the Child Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission. You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, how Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Work many parents have been prosecuted for (a) not providing and Pensions how many breaches of the Data information and (b) providing false information to the Child Protection Act 1998 have been recorded in (a) her Support Agency in each year since 2000. [278965] Department and (b) each of its agencies in each of the There were a total of 1,440 successful prosecutions in 2008/09. last five years. [281846] Of these, 1,380 parents were prosecuted for failing to provide information, 15 for providing false information and 45 for other Jim Knight: Because the Department handles data offence types. relating to millions of individual customers on a daily The total number of successful prosecutions broken down basis, small localised data incidents are dealt with as each year from 2004/05 are included in the attached table. There they arise. These are not recorded centrally by the is no further breakdown available by prosecution type prior to Department or its agencies, and consequently the 2008/09 as the system used to record this information is no longer in use. No figures are available prior to 2004/05. details of such incidents could be provided only at disproportionate cost. I hope you find this answer helpful. More significant incidents which involve personal Table 1: Successful prosecutions data are reported to the Information Commissioner as Number a matter of course. Under the mandatory requirements 2004-05 250 of the Data Handling Report published on 25 June 2005-06 400 2008, the Department is required to provide a 2006-07 480 summary of such incidents in its annual resource 2007-08 660 accounts. 2008-09 1,440 The Department has published details of incidents Notes: arising during 2007-08 in the annual resource account 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. No prior figures are which was published on 13 August 2008. We will be available before 2004-05. 3. The figures for 2004-05, 2005-06, 2006-07 publishing information on incidents reported to the and 2007-08 are taken from the old compliance access database Information Commissioner during 2008-09 in the next which is no longer in use, a breakdown of prosecution “type” can therefore not be included. 4. The figure for 2008-09 is taken from the resource accounts. The information is currently being CriMIS small systems database which provides a breakdown of compiled and verified before it is laid before prosecution type. Parliament. 1023W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1024W

Departmental Electricity Departmental Internet

Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate she has made of the Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work percentage of electricity used by her Department which and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 9 February was derived from renewable sources in (a) 2006-07 and 2009, Official Report, columns 1636-8W, on the (b) 2007-08. [280969] departmental internet, how many (a) unique visitors and (b) page impressions were received by each website Jim Knight: The following table gives details of the operated by her Department in each of the last 12 percentage of renewable energy used by the months. [280793] Department for Work and Pensions.

Percentage Jim Knight [holding answer 18 June 2009]: The Energy from Good quality combined following tables outline (a) unique visitors and (b) renewable sources heat and power sources page views (page impressions for the Jobcentre Plus 2006-07 53.5 9 website) in line with Cabinet Office guidance, for each 2007-08 34 43 of the websites maintained by the Department for Work and Pensions as per the answer of 9 February The Department took a deliberate decision to reduce 2009. We cannot produce all the statistics as DWP does its percentage renewables in 2007-08 to allow an not hold some of the figures and due to some technical increase in CHP generated supplies and an overall difficulties we were unable to collect all the figures for increase from 62.5 per cent. to 77 per cent. each month.

Table A: Unique visitors for the websites maintained by the Department for Work and Pension—2008-09 2008 Site April May June July August September October November December

DWP 620,492 637,574 760,610 742,472 658,287 748,565 813,280 818,521 645,387 JCP 6,091,767 5,671,110 6,463,155 7,037,643 6,297,163 8,821,813 8,595,983 6,656,645 5,430,710 CSA 93,381 91,371 98,856 100,352 96,790 107,056 109,204 106,554 83,589 AP 15,105 19,863 23,872 16,594 11,405 12,258 8,472 7,929 6,092 ESF 6,590 10,136 11,115 9,453 8,165 9,250 9,674 12,227 8,704 ICE 1,505 1,496 2,026 1,775 1,831 1,550 1,642 1,499 1,265 IIAC 1,631 1,495 1,550 1,506 1,264 1,402 1,404 1,262 1,034 SSCA 1,135 1,510 1,594 1,037 976 979 1,047 1,875 1,044 ODI 6,459 8,126 7,799 9,351 7,031 1— 1— 8,754 9,524 DG-D 1,434,791 1,164,606 1,243,904 315,295 292,014 330,801 350,623 1— 1— DG-C 89,435 76,258 85,006 85,762 79,562 90,908 95,233 91,746 69,544 DG 50+ 162,296 117,783 127,308 132,785 134,161 154,189 155,105 158,924 119,692 TPS 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 304,843 307,620 359,208 244,997 Total 8,524,587 7,801,328 8,826,795 8,454,025 7,588,649 10,583,614 10,449,287 8,225,144 6,621,582

2009 2009 Site January February March Site January February March

DWP 1,112,470 932,498 1,008,693 SSCA 1,328 1,141 1— JCP 10,071,434 8,247,216 1— ODI 10,450 1— 1— CSA 132,020 109,267 1— DG-D 1— 384,892 1— AP 8,414 8,592 1— DG-C 129,362 110,703 1— ESF 10,645 10,145 1— DG 50+ 256,358 204,867 227,434 ICE 1,783 1,625 1— TPS 412,872 337,812 487,977 IIAC 1,395 1,384 1— Total 12,148,531 10,350,142 1,724,104

Table B: Page views for the websites maintained by the Department for Work and Pensions—2008-09 2008 Site April May June July August September October November December

DWP 4,890,895 4,632,534 5,467,135 5,481,316 4,823,111 5,255,207 5,840,085 5,675,631 4,578,694 JCP 279,358,470 250,206,608 290,661,873 302,481,658 271,781,484 308,875,532 302,104,417 266,874,017 179,521,943 CSA 693,879 623,741 710,818 703,331 669,090 753,074 770,977 721,481 550,725 AP 64,450 77,281 85,586 67,995 49,610 47,653 35,517 33,739 28,350 ESF 35,240 58,541 63,781 48,604 51,520 57,699 54,395 62,070 44,399 ICE 24,112 24,328 24,046 25,047 26,334 20,945 20,229 23,312 29,862 IIAC 18,911 19,293 18,202 18,395 18,488 16,534 16,764 18,587 17,903 SSCA 18,403 20,187 18,561 18,166 18,631 17,356 17,036 45,590 18,453 1025W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1026W

Table B: Page views for the websites maintained by the Department for Work and Pensions—2008-09 2008 Site April May June July August September October November December

ODI 52,021 57,474 53,154 58,098 48,873 1— 1— 49,760 57,367 DG-D 1— 1— 1— 1,291,101 1,206,271 1,321,886 1,390,235 1— 1— DG-C 327,393 279,429 315,728 321,083 298,200 331,579 357,209 357,971 265,159 DG 50+ 434,884 294,965 321,516 336,221 349,620 389,937 400,452 416,613 304,269 TPS 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 2,815,695 2,954,131 3,155,462 2,159,900 Total 285,918,658 256,294,381 297,740,400 310,851,015 279,341,232 319,903,097 313,961,447 277,434,233 187,577,024

Departmental Press: Subscriptions 2009 Site January February March Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work DWP 7,693,486 6,311,548 7,648,495 and Pensions to which (a) magazines, (b) journals and JCP 350,647,463 298,532,534 324,713,314 (c) newspapers her Department subscribes; and what CSA 901,912 741,673 1— the total cost of such subscriptions has been in each of 1 AP 35,569 35,529 — the last three years. [280762] ESF 53,056 50,377 1— ICE 25,457 23,345 1— IIAC 19,055 17,811 1— Jim Knight: Annex A (magazines and journals) and SSCA 19,755 17,807 1— annex B (newspapers) listing magazines, journals and ODI 57,772 1— 1— newspapers subscribed to by the Department for Work DG-D 1— 1,566,846 1— and Pensions has been placed in the Library. DG-C 472,298 406,136 1— Information on the cost of subscriptions in each of DG 50+ 678,359 565,034 626,209 the last three years is set out in the following table. TPS 3,820,139 3,137,296 4,724,905 Total 364,424,321 311,405,936 337,712,923 £ Newspaper/magazine 1 Not collected. Financial year spend Periodical spend KEY: DWP 2006-07 73,794.25 134,642.74 Department for Work and Pensions: www.dwp.gov.uk 2007-08 56,364.35 138,063.72 JCP 2008-09 42,389.51 167,444.62 Jobcentre Plus: www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk CSA Child Support Agency: Departmental Telephone Services www.csa.gov.uk AP Age Positive: John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Work www.agepositive.gov.uk this site closed in February 2009 and Pensions what criteria her Department uses to ESF European Social Fund: monitor the performance of its callbacks to telephone www.esf.gov.uk benefit claimants; and what percentage of customers ICE who request a callback were contacted in the latest Independent Case Examiner: www.ind-case-exam.org.uk (DWP hosts the website but is not responsible for period for which figures are available. [278377] the content) IIAC Industrial Injuries Advisory Council: Jim Knight: I have asked the Jobcentre Plus Contact www.iiac.org.uk (DWP hosts the website but is not responsible for the content) Centre Directorate Acting Operations Director, Stuart SSAC Social Security Advisory Committee: Griffiths, to provide the hon. Member with the www.ssac.org.uk (DWP hosts the website but is not responsible for the information requested. content) ODI Letter from Stuart Griffiths, dated 19 June 2009: Office for Disability Issues: The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question www.officefordisability.gov.uk DG-D asking what criteria the Department of Work and Pensions uses Directgov Disabled People and Carers Sections: to monitor the performance of its callbacks to telephone benefit www.direct.gov.uk/disability (Directgov operate the website but DWP is claimants; and what percentage of customers who request a responsible for the content) callback are contacted. [PQ 278377] DG-C Directgov Disabled People and Carers Sections: I will respond on behalf of Jobcentre Plus (including Benefit www.direct.gov.uk/carers (Directgov operate the website but DWP is and Fraud Directorate) and Pension, Disability and Carers responsible for the content) Service. DG 50+ Directgov Over 50s Section (now re-titled Pensions and Retirement Planning): Jobcentre Plus Contact Centre Directorate www.direct.gov.uk/over50s (Directgov operate the website but DWP is The criteria Jobcentre Plus Contact Centre Directorate use to responsible for the content) TPS monitor the performance of pre-booked callbacks is that 90% of The Pension Service: callbacks are completed within 36 hours. This includes customers www.thepensionservice.gov.uk who answer their callback, and also customers who we are unable Notes: to contact after two telephone calls. Therefore, we call back 100% 1. Data is not held for the Health and Safety Executive website: of customers who request it. If we are unable to contact a www.hse.gov.uk 2. Data is not collected for Now Lets Talk Money website: customer due to their unavailability, a letter is sent informing www.nowletstalkmoney.com them that Jobcentre Plus has tried to telephone them, and to call or Ethnic Minority Employment Task Force website: www.emetaskforce.gov.uk us again if they still wish to make a claim. 1027W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1028W

For 2008/09, 92.6% of callbacks were completed within The provisions in place that ensure a contractor 36 hours. complies with the relevant provisions of the Disability For April 2009, 97.6% of callbacks were completed within 36 Discrimination Act 2005 are contained in our standard hours. terms and conditions. Section 37 “Unlawful Discrimination” Benefit and Fraud Directorate states “the Contractor shall not unlawfully discriminate Benefit and Fraud Directorate telephony teams aim to clear within the meaning and scope of the Race Relations 80% of first time calls from customers, with approximately 20% Act 1976, the Sex-Discrimination Act 1975 or the Disability referred for a potential callback. If a callback is required by the Discrimination Act 1995 or analogous legislation which customer, this is emailed to benefit processing teams with an has been, or may be, enacted from time to time relating expectation that callbacks will be made within three hours of the to discrimination in employment.” initial customer contact. All customers requesting a callback will receive one. Contract managers review compliance with disability discrimination legislation periodically as part of their Pension, Disability and Carers Service supplier relationship management procedures. The information requested is not available in the Pension, Disability and Carers Service. Future Jobs Fund I hope this reply is helpful. Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Disability Discrimination Act 2005 and Pensions what recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the Future Jobs Fund. [282050] and Pensions (1) what mechanisms are in place to ensure that (a) her Department and (b) contractors Jim Knight: The future jobs fund is an important comply with relevant provisions of the Disability new initiative announced in the Budget 2009 worth Discrimination Act 2005 in processing benefit claims £1 billion to create 150,000 new jobs both for young from those with a mental health condition; [277833] people and individuals living in unemployment hotspots. We are inviting bids from a wide range of (2) what mechanisms are in place to ensure that (a) organisations and partnerships including those from her Department and (b) contractors comply with the sport and creative industries to create valuable jobs relevant provisions of the Disability Discrimination that bring real benefits to individuals and their Act 2005 in respect of those with a mental health communities. condition in (i) allocating and (ii) administering work experience and work trial placements. [279555] The previous Secretary of State for Work and Pensions met with the Secretary of State for Culture, Jonathan Shaw: All public authorities are subject to Media and Sport to discuss ways to ensure the sport the Disability Equality Duty which requires them to and culture industries are able to put together strong pay due regard to promoting disability when carrying bids to the fund and deliver jobs in these industries as out all of their functions. Some public authorities are early as October 2009. also required to publish a Disability Equality Scheme Building on this, officials from the Department for setting out how they will meet the Disability Equality Culture, Media and Sport and the Department for Duty. Work and Pensions have been working closely together to ensure the sport and creative industries play a The Department published Single Equality Schemes, prominent role in the jobs created through the future incorporating disability, race and gender, in 2008. jobs fund and we expect to receive a number of bids These schemes include a three-year action plan setting from organisations in these areas when we start out how the Department and its agencies intend to assessing bids from July 2009 onwards. meet their three Public Sector Duties and how they will equality impact assess their policies and practices It is important that we engage with individuals who against them. are approaching long-term unemployment to help them move into fulfilling and valuable employment In respect of the Disability Equality Duty, they also that will help Britain prepare for economic recovery. set out how disabled people have been involved in The future jobs fund will provide organisations with producing the schemes and setting the direction of the funding to do this and make a real contribution to travel that would best achieve improvements in the lives of individuals and their communities. outcomes for disabled people. The scheme action plans are monitored and formal progress reports are Health and Safety Executive published annually. All schemes and information can be found on the DWP website. Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Where the Department is providing services to the Work and Pensions what steps she plans to take to public, or delivering public functions, it is required by establish the nuclear directorate within the Health and the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 to make Safety Executive on a statutory basis. [279351] reasonable adjustments to enable disabled people to have access to those services or functions. Jonathan Shaw: My officials have been working There is mandatory training in place for all DWP closely with the Department of Energy and Climate staff to ensure they have the appropriate cultural Change and the Health and Safety Executive to and legislative knowledge to understand their develop proposals to give effect to the Government’s responsibilities when developing policies or providing decision to restructure the nuclear directorate through services for disabled customers, including those with a legislation. We expect to publish proposals for public mental health condition. consultation in the near future. 1029W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1030W

Motability Starters (individuals) in last six months

Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Total 256,550 Work and Pensions how many Motability cars were Definitions and conventions: Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. being used in England and Wales on the latest date for Notes: which figures are available; how much funding from the 1. Latest data is to February 2009. public purse was contributed towards the cost of 2. The total starters exclude those customers on new deal 50-plus as these figures have been withdrawn pending an investigation of the data source. adapted vehicles for the scheme in each of the last five 3. This information is published at: years; and if she will make a statement. [280711] http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/tabtools/tabtool_nd.asp Source: Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate. Jonathan Shaw: There are currently 431,241 Motability cars being used in England and Wales. Details of funding provided to Motability are in the New Deal Schemes: Hertfordshire following table. Funding provided to Motability Mr. Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for Work £000 and Pensions how many people in East Hertfordshire Specialised vehicles have participated in a new deal programme in each of fund Administration the last three years. [280124] 2004-05 8,375 2,700 2005-06 8,615 2,800 Jim Knight: The following table sets out the number 2006-07 9,087 2,800 of people who started participation in a new deal 2007-08 12,700 2,960 programme in the East Hertfordshire district in the last 2008-09 17,036 2,960 three years. Notes: Motability administers the specialised vehicles fund on behalf of the New deal starters Department for Work and Pensions. The Fund provides financial assistance to those disabled drivers or passengers on the scheme who require extensive adaptations to their vehicles. The majority of these adaptations allow the 2006 310 disabled person to travel as a passenger, where necessary entering the vehicle 2007 350 and travelling while remaining seated in a wheelchair. 2008 270 Source: Motability. Definitions and conventions: Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Time series—year of starting: The calendar year of starting new deal. Latest data is to February 2009. Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. The totals for each year exclude those customers on new deal 50-plus as Work and Pensions what estimate she has made of the these figures have been withdrawn pending an investigation of the data source savings which would accrue to her Department if cars 2. The measure used for new deal for partners is starters (individuals) as spells are not available for this new deal. used for the Motability scheme were changed every six 3. Since June 2008, new deal for disabled people has ceased to operate as a years; and if she will make a statement. [280712] national programme Source: Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate. Jonathan Shaw: Motability is an independent charity and is responsible for the administration of the Motability Scheme. We have no reason to believe that Social Fund this Department would accrue any savings if Motability changed their cars every six years. Mr. Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much funding the Government plans to allocate to the Social Fund in 2009-10; and if she New Deal Schemes will make a statement. [268701]

Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jonathan Shaw: Additional funding for social fund and Pensions how many persons registered for each loans was announced in the Chancellor’s Budget report category of the New Deal programme at Jobcentre Plus on 22 April 2009, to ensure that support can continue in the last six months. [281257] to be provided during the economic downturn. As a result, the previous gross loans budget for Great Britain for 2009-10 was increased. The current Jim Knight [holding answer 19 June 2009]: Figures discretionary social fund budgets for Great Britain are on new starters on the new deals are shown in the given in the table. following table. The six-month period used here is up Discretionary social fund budgets for Great Britain for 2009-10 to and including February 2009. £ million

Starters (individuals) in last six Gross loans 650 months Community care grants 141 New Deal for Young People 97,880 Contingency reserve 1 New Deal 25-plus 51,330 New Deal for Lone Parents 90,040 The regulated social fund is demand led, so there are New Deal for Disabled People 16,190 no fixed budgets. All the funds necessary to pay New Deal for Partners 1,110 claimants entitled to an award will be made available. 1031W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1032W

Unemployment: Older Workers Mr. Timms: I have been asked to reply. Estimates of the number of child trust fund accounts Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for opened for children born on or before 5 April 2007, in Work and Pensions what recent steps her Department each parliamentary constituency, are available at: has taken to assist unemployed people over the age of http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ctf/cons-stats-oct08.pdf 50 years to find work. [282052] Latest estimates of the average number of families benefiting from tax credits, as well as the average Jim Knight: The Government are committed to number of in-work families benefiting from the child giving everyone the support they need to find care element in each Government office region, local employment as quickly as possible, whatever their age. authority and parliamentary constituency, based on A major factor in the employment of older people is final family circumstances and incomes, are available in employer behaviour. In addition to providing generic the HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) publication good practice guidance to employers, the UK’s Age “Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics. Finalised Positive initiative is working in partnership with business annual awards. Geographical analyses 2006-07”. This leaders to develop sector-based models of flexible retirement publication is available at: to support the increased employment and retention of http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc-geog- older workers and the removal of fixed retirement ages. stats.htm Our plans for the future include providing guidance HMRC do not produce these statistics separately for to older workers on their options for working longer, child tax credit and working tax credit. Information is encouraging employers to increase flexible work and not yet available for 2007-08 at parliamentary phased retirement opportunities, and monitoring the constituency level. Further information can be found impact of the economic downturn to identify which at: groups are being most affected and targeting further http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tc-delay-07-08.htm help where it is most needed. Latest estimates of the number of families who were On the 6 April 2009, as part of the Government’s claiming child benefit in the areas requested are response to the economic downturn, the Department provided in the HMRC annual publication “Child for Work and Pensions put in place extra support for Benefit geographical statistics. August 2006”, available newly unemployed customers, including information at: and advice about the latest job search techniques and http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/child_benefit/geog-aug06.pdf coaching on how to make the most of transferable Figures for August 2007 are not yet available. skills. Extra help for those who have been claiming jobseeker’s allowance for six months was also introduced, including opportunities to volunteer, support to become self-employed, recruitment subsidies and work-focused ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE training. Since last autumn, the Department has also Carbon Emissions quadrupled the available funding for the rapid response service, which provides advice and support to customers facing redundancy. It has extended local Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for employment partnerships, the adviser discretion fund Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions he and access to work so they are available to customers has had with his US counterpart on the establishment from the first day of their claim, alongside the support of a US Emissions Trading Scheme. [280357] they receive from their Jobcentre Plus personal adviser. Mr. Kidney: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of The introduction of the flexible new deal across State has regular discussions with his counterparts in phase 1 areas from October 2010 will give providers the the US Administration on US climate and energy policy, freedom to offer personalised, tailored support to including proposals currently before the US Congress everyone who has been claiming jobseeker’s allowance to establish a US emissions trading scheme. for 12 months, helping them overcome their individual barriers to work. Carbon Emissions: Government Departments This will be available to jobseeker’s allowance customers of all ages to ensure that everyone has the best possible chance of finding work. Greg Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment he has In addition, the budget announced the future jobs made of progress towards meeting the target of making fund and young persons guarantee. Future jobs fund the central Government estate carbon neutral by 2012. places will be available for older people from [266782] disadvantaged areas who are facing significant barriers to employment. Ian Pearson: I have been asked to reply. The Department for Energy and Climate Change is Child Benefit: Lancashire currently leading work to define what is meant by carbon neutrality for Government and the private sector. Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Once this work is complete, Government will review the and Pensions how many families received child benefit target for the central Government office estate to be in each parliamentary constituency in Lancashire in carbon neutral by 2012 and the implications for the latest period for which figures are available. [282058] departmental delivery. 1033W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1034W

Carbon Emissions: Housing Low Carbon Buildings Programme: phase 2 Type of West organisation For year Chelmsford Essex England Mr. Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many grant applications were Schools 2006-07 0 0 3 received by the Low Carbon Buildings programme in 2007-08 0 2 196 respect of (a) schools, (b) hospitals and (c) other 2008-09 0 6 475 public buildings in (i) West Chelmsford constituency, 2009-10 0 1 95 (ii) Essex and (iii) England in each year since the [278396] inception of the programme. Hospitals 2006-07 0 0 0 2007-08 0 0 0 Mr. Kidney [holding answer 8 June 2009]: The 2008-09 0 0 4 following grant applications were received by the Low 2009-10 0 0 0 Carbon Buildings programme in respect of (a) schools, (b) hospitals and (c) other public buildings in (i) West Chelmsford constituency, (ii) Essex and (iii) Other public 2006-07 0 1 3 England in each year since the inception of the scheme. buildings 2007-08 1 1 140 Low Carbon Buildings Programme: phase 1 2008-09 0 6 199 Communities stream Number of applications 2009-10 1 1 55 West Total (phase 2 18 1,167 Chelmsford Essex England 2) Note: 2006-07 Number of grant applications received (includes accepted, submitted (currently Schools 0 0 22 being processed), withdrawn and rejected). Other Public 015 Buildings Carbon Emissions: Research

Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 Energy and Climate Change what research his Department has (a) conducted and (b) commissioned Schools 0 0 2 on strategies to deliver a low-carbon economy. [281296] Other Public 005 Buildings Joan Ruddock: The Department of Energy and Climate Stream 2A (below £100,000) Change has an ongoing programme of work on what a Number of applications low carbon future for the UK might look like, including West strategies for delivering a low carbon economy. Chelmsford Essex England As part of this DECC has conducted and commissioned 2006-07 a range of research, including to model scenarios for Schools 0 0 13 reducing energy system CO2 emissions, and worked Hospitals 0 0 0 with partners on analysis of possible technology options Other Public 0023for the future of energy supply and demand. Buildings In addition, research has been carried out in other Departments to support policy development in this 2007-08 area. As part of its work to understand the costs and Schools 0 1 28 benefits of the Climate Change Act, DEFRA commissioned Hospitals 0 0 0 analysis of the costs of meeting the UK’s climate change Other Public 0145targets; and the Department for Business, Innovation Buildings and Skills commissioned a report to support the development of the Government’s low carbon industrial Stream 2B (Above £100,000) strategy, which will be published in the summer. Number of applications Government’s analysis of policy options has also West taken account of research commissioned and conducted Chelmsford Essex England by organisations outside Government, both in the UK 2006-07 and elsewhere. Schools 0 0 1 Hospitals 0 0 0 Community Energy Savings Programme Other Public 001 Buildings Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change which areas will be covered by the 2007-08 Community Energy Savings Programme; and what the Schools 0 1 1 delivery mechanisms for the programme will be. Hospitals 0 0 2 [281590] Other Public 017 Buildings Note: Joan Ruddock: Proposals for the delivery mechanisms Some applications were resubmitted so these are not all unique applications. for the community energy saving programme (CESP) 1035W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1036W and which areas to target were set out in the CESP Energy Supply consultation document published on 12 February. The consultation closed on 8 May. Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for We are considering the outcomes of this consultation Energy and Climate Change when the report of the and aim to make announcements shortly. Special Representative of the Prime Minister on International Energy Issues on global energy trends Departmental Energy and the implications for Britain’s energy security will be published; and if he will make a statement. [280350] Greg Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr. Kidney: We expect the report of my right hon. and Climate Change what steps have been taken by his Friend the Member for Croydon, North (Malcolm Wicks) Department to improve the thermal efficiency of its to be published in the summer. buildings in the last 12 months. [266757] Energy: Billing Mr. Kidney: Since DECC’s inception, BERR and DEFRA manage the Department’s estate. Given that, I Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy refer the hon. Member to the answers given by my hon. and Climate Change what steps his Department is Friend the Minister for Natural and Marine Environment, taking to ensure energy (a) bills and (b) tariffs are Wildlife and Rural Affairs on 23 April 2009, Official understandable to consumers. [279983] Report, column 816W, and by my hon. Friend the Minister for Employment Relations and Postal Affairs Mr. Kidney: DECC firmly believes that consumers at the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory should be able to access the information they need to Reform on 31 March 2009, Official Report, column allow them to make the right decisions about energy 1180. use, tariffs and suppliers. It is important to reach the right balance so that Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers consumers have enough information but are not obstructed by too much or poorly presented information. Ofgem Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for has recently held a public consultation on proposals for Energy and Climate Change whether his Department new obligations on suppliers relating to consumer has drawn up a shortlist of potential special advisers information, in order to take the various views of interested on the development of national policy statements on parties into account. We look forward to seeing results (a) wind farms and (b) nuclear power plants; what from that process in order to get the best result for remuneration will be provided to such advisers; and consumers. what criteria will be used to select them. [279469] Energy: Conservation Mr. Kidney: We have not drawn up a shortlist of potential special advisers on the development of national Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy policy statements on (a) wind farms and (b) nuclear and Climate Change how much has been spent in power plants and currently have no plans to do so. respect of the British Gas council tax rebate scheme for energy efficiency measures; what criteria are used for Departmental Official Hospitality the allocation of such funding; and what proportion of the costs of the scheme is met by local authorities. Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy [280041] and Climate Change how much his Department has Mr. Kidney: The scheme in question is not managed, spent on hospitality and entertainment since its funded or monitored by this Department. The information inception. [273891] requested is held by British Gas and their associated local authorities and cannot be provided by DECC. Joan Ruddock: £117,600.00. Energy: Domestic Appliances Departmental Rail Travel Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has made of and Climate Change what guidance his Department progress in introducing energy-efficient domestic has issued to staff on claiming for travel in first class appliances in the UK. [281264] carriages on trains if there are no seats available in standard class. [268468] Dan Norris: I have been asked to reply. DEFRA’s “Policy Analysis and Projections”, published Joan Ruddock: Staff who are not ordinarily entitled in July 2008, contains such an assessment. It also sets to travel by rail in first class are advised that may do so out how the efficiency of products will need to improve in the following circumstances: in order to meet the Government’s targets of annual when travelling with a colleague entitled to first class travel savings of 3.6-11 million tonnes of CO2 from efficient when no standard class seats (except on suburban lines) are products by 2020, as set out in May 2007’s Energy available White Paper. when there is a genuine business need. The analysis was published after a full consultation in These guidelines are consistent with the practice of spring 2008 and can be found at other Government Departments. www.mtprog.com/whitepaper. 1037W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1038W

In line with the Government’s commitment to consult some 48,000 checks have been completed. The average annually on these projections the analysis will be issued increase in income for applicants identifying new benefits for a second consultation in summer 2009. The second is £30.64 per week or £1,590 per year. consultation will contain updated projections of the A review of our fuel poverty policies is under way. CO2 savings resulting from the introduction of energy- The review is examining whether existing measures to efficient products for both the domestic and non-domestic tackle fuel poverty could be made more effective, and sectors. whether new policies should be introduced to help us make further progress towards our goals, particularly in EU Emissions Trading Scheme light of market conditions and our aims to reduce carbon emissions. Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment he Hartlepool Power Station has made of progress towards liberalisation of the European energy market. [280358] Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what plans he has for the future of Mr. Kidney: I welcome the progress is being made on Hartlepool nuclear power station. [280708] the development of the internal energy market, especially the recent agreement of texts for the third liberalisation Mr. Kidney: Future plans for power stations are a package. This legislation will come into force early in commercial matter for companies that own and operate 2011 and will benefit consumers through the development them. of more competition, especially between member states, Plans for Hartlepool nuclear power station are an and by enhancing security of supply. In order to improve operational matter for British Energy, part of EDF the operation of the market, the UK is encouraging Energy. member states to implement early and on a voluntary basis those elements of the package related to transparency Longannet Power Station and co-operation between national regulators and system operators. Mr. Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions Fuel Poverty his Department has had with the management of Longannet power station on recruitment of Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy engineering contractors during the shutdown for and Climate Change what steps his Department is maintenance. [270830] taking to meet the Government’s 2010 target to eradicate fuel poverty in (a) vulnerable households Mr. Kidney [holding answer 24 April 2009]: The with a disabled person and (b) all vulnerable Department has had no discussions with Longannet households. [241930] power station management about the recruitment of engineering contractors during the recent shutdown for Mr. Kidney: Tackling fuel poverty is a priority for the maintenance. Government. Our present policies and programmes, in Low Carbon Buildings Programme particular with the changes announced in recent months, underline our commitment to do all that is reasonably practicable to ensure that vulnerable households do not Danny Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for live in fuel poverty. Energy and Climate Change if he will undertake to provide sufficient funding to provide grants to all solar We have set in place a wide range of measures to photovoltaic technology applications under phase 2 of tackle fuel poverty and so far have spent more than the low carbon buildings programme which meet the £20 billion on policies and programmes to alleviate fuel eligibility criteria and which are submitted between poverty. 23 March 2009 and September 2009. [280193] Since 2000 we have assisted over 2 million households in England in the private sector through the Warm Mr. Kidney [holding answer 16 June 2009]: The Front Scheme by fitting insulation and heating Government have committed a further £45 million to improvements for households in receipt of means-tested the Low Carbon Buildings Programme (LCBP) in the or disability-related benefits. The scheme now has a recent Budget. This now brings support for the programme budget of over £950 million for the spending years to over £130 million. The new funding will help to 2008-09 to 2010-11. support more solar PV installations, alongside other The Government’s programmes also assist vulnerable renewable and low carbon technologies. Since December households through the provision of income-based policies. 2008 we re-allocated £9 million funds from within the We have increased the winter fuel payments, which Low Carbon Buildings Programme to solar photovoltaic helped keep 12 million people warm last winter, by an and we recently announced that a further £5 million of extra £50 for pensioners aged 60-79 and £100 for those the £45 million would be transferred to immediately over 80, and this will continue next winter. We have also support solar PV applications. increased cold weather payments from £8.50 to £25 per We have put in place plans to extend Low Carbon week and made 8.4 million payments worth £210 million Buildings Programme Phase 2 to support the full range between November 2008 and March 2009. of microgeneration technologies, including solar PV, To ensure as many households as possible are eligible from 1 July 2009. Further information is available from for assistance we have arranged for benefit entitlement the Low Carbon Buildings Website: checks to be carried out through Warm Front. To date http://www.lowcarbonbuildings.org.uk/home/ 1039W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1040W

Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and construction. This will further assist in identifying and Climate Change when the Low Carbon Buildings the training and skills interventions required to be put Programme will receive the £45 million of additional in place. funding allocated in Budget 2009. [280996] There is close working between the Department of Energy and Climate Change and the Department for Mr. Kidney [holding answer 18 June 2009]: Following Business Innovation and Skills on these issues. the announcement of the £45 million in the Budget 2009 we allocated £5 million to phase 2 of the Low Renewable Energy Carbon Buildings Programme (LCBP) to support solar photovoltaic applications. Mr. Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for LCBP phase 2 will be extended and start on 1 July Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made with a budget of £30 million supporting charitable of the net trading (a) gains and (b) losses in each local organisations, community groups and the public sector. authority area arising from the manufacture and sale of We have allocated £10 million to LCBP phase 1 to (i) wind turbines and (ii) other means of renewable support household installations. energy generation. [279128] Mr. Kidney [holding answer 11 June 2009]: The Natural Gas: Russia Department supports the development of the manufacturing of renewable energy generation in the UK. Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy This includes creating a supportive policy framework and Climate Change whether he has held discussions for the deployment of renewable energy in the UK with (a) the Russian government and (b) the (including long-term support for deployed renewable European Commission on recent statements of energy generation), as well as targeted support for the Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin that there were development of next-generation and lower cost wind emerging risks surrounding stable gas supplies to energy technology. An example is the recently-launched Europe this winter. [280886] £10 million scheme to support offshore wind deployment under the Environmental Transformation Fund, which Mr. Kidney [holding answer 22 June 2009]: The aims to stimulate and encourage the development and Government are working closely with EU partners to demonstration of offshore wind technologies, and avoid a further interruption to European gas supplies. components for larger turbines, to enable their deployment My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister discussed the within 2020 time scales. matter with President Barroso on 4 June 2009 and there However the Department does not hold information has been subsequent discussion at both the Energy on the level of either wind or renewable manufacturing Council on 12 June 2009 and the European Council on broken down by local authority area. 18 and 19 June 2009. While the UK has had bilateral contacts at official Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for level with both Russia and Ukraine, the first priority Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made should be to establish the facts of the situation and the of the average time taken for (a) solar, (b) Government strongly supports the recent European photovoltaic, (c) ground source heat pump, (d) air Commission mission to Moscow and Kiev for this source heat pump and (e) biomass microgeneration purpose. technologies to produce savings equivalent to their cost; and if he will make a statement. [280118] Nuclear Power Stations: Apprentices Mr. Kidney: Payback periods are generally difficult to Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy estimate accurately, because of the huge amount of and Climate Change what discussions he has had with variation that can come from system costs, system the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and capacity and energy produced, fuel displaced, size of Skills on the creation of apprenticeships in the the house and energy prices from different suppliers. construction of the next generation of nuclear power Payback periods will also depend on changes in energy stations. [280709] prices in the future and as we cannot predict future trends in energy prices, it is very difficult to give an Mr. Kidney: New nuclear build in the UK has the accurate payback period. potential to require 1,000s of workers, with apprentices The following table details average costs of systems in the industry and supply chain being an essential part for each technology type and the annual cost savings on of this workforce. fuel bills relative to each technology type where specific The National Skills Academy for Nuclear, launched assumptions have been made: in January 2008, has the responsibility for co-ordinating Average total cost ex Possible cost savings existing training provision on a regional and national VAT (£) for LCBP from annual fuel bill basis, and aims to deliver 1,200 apprenticeships to the funded installations (to (as published on EST industry by the end of 2011 through a number of Technology end May 2009) website) initiatives. Air source heat pump 7,400 £20 to £700 savings on In addition Cogent, the sector skills council for the fuel bills per year.1 nuclear industry, has commissioned in-depth research Ground source heat 10,800 £160 to £840 savings 2 on the nuclear labour market. This is scoping the demand pump on fuel bills per year. Solar PV 13,000 Approximately £190 for skilled workers, including apprentices, in the supply saving on electricity chain for new build, which includes in manufacturing bill per year.3 1041W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1042W

energy devices. It will cover wave, tidal stream and tidal Average total cost ex Possible cost savings VAT (£) for LCBP from annual fuel bill range (outside of the Severn estuary) and aims to map funded installations (to (as published on EST environmental sensitivities and constraints and to identify Technology end May 2009) website) possible strategic level data and information gaps. Solar thermal hot 4,100 Approx £50 to £85 The screening exercise will build upon the data already water saving on water heating 4 gathered for the Offshore Energy SEA, the Severn Tidal bill per year. SEA, the Welsh Marine Energy Strategic Plan, the UK Wood fuelled boiler 8,900 £170 to £410 per year if fuel displaced is solid Marine Renewable Energy Resources Atlas and other fuel or electricity. 5 studies. 1 Savings are approximate and vary depending on the fuel displaced. Assumptions are that the air source heat pump provides 100 per cent. of space Renewable Energy: Public Consultation heating and up to 50 per cent. of hot water, with the additional 50 per cent. provided by electric heater, in a detached property. 2 Savings are approximate and vary depending on the fuel displaced. Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Secretary of State for Assumptions are that the ground source heat pump is installed in a detached Energy and Climate Change when he plans to publish property which provides 100 per cent. of space heating and up to 50 per cent. his response to the renewable energy strategy of domestic hot water, the additional 50 per cent. is met through an electric heater. consultation. [279550] 3 Assumes a 2kWp system with 50 per cent. on site consumption with excess exported to the grid on a typical export tariff (A 2kWp system could provide Mr. Kidney: We published an initial response to the over 40 per cent. of a household’s yearly electricity needs). 4 Savings are approximate and vary depending on the fuel displaced. Savings renewable energy strategy consultation on 17 February are based on the hot water heating requirements of a three bed semi detached 2009. This can be viewed on: home with a 3.5 m squared panel. http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/ 5 If you replace a gas or solid fuel system with a wood burning system you may end up paying more for your fuel cons_res/cons_res.aspx The renewable energy strategy will be our formal Support for householders and communities has been response to the consultation and will be published this provided through the low carbon buildings programme summer. £131 million grant scheme which has helped with up front costs. The Government are committed to bringing Solar Power forward feed in tariffs and the renewable heat incentive in April 2010 and April 2011 respectively. These incentives Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy will also play a part in reducing pay back period. and Climate Change if he will provide funding for the manufacture of domestic energy generation products Renewable Energy: Coventry using photovoltaic technology. [281229] Mr. Kidney [holding answer 19 June 2009]: Alow Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State carbon economy represents a huge economic opportunity for Energy and Climate Change what steps his and is at the heart of the Government’s vision for Department has taken to source renewable energy economic recovery. Budget 2009 committed a further supplies for Coventry. [281148] £1.4 billion in targeted support for the low carbon economy. Mr. Kidney: We published last summer a consultation The Low Carbon Buildings Programme (LCBP) is document on measures to meet our target of 15 per the Government’s £131 million grant programme which cent. renewable energy by 2020. We will publish our is supporting the installation of microgeneration renewable energy strategy this summer, detailing an technologies including solar photovoltaic. The programme action plan for promoting further renewable energy is helping to build the supply chain for these technologies deployment throughout the UK. and creating a sustainable market. In addition, solar It is for the market to bring forward proposals for photovoltaic also receives support through the Renewables renewable energy projects in specific areas. Obligation (RO). Since 1 April 2009, all microgenerators (50 kW and under) can apply for the highest level of Renewable Energy: Pembrokeshire support under the reformed RO (2 ROCs/MWh). We are committed to having Feed In Tariffs in place Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy in April 2010. This will provide longer term support for and Climate Change what assessment he has made of solar photovoltaic industry giving business the confidence (a) the capacity of and (b) constraints on the to make investment decisions. development of potential wave power and tidal power Solar Power: East of England projects off the Pembrokeshire coast. [279455] Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Kidney: The Government have recently announced Energy and Climate Change how much funding his that work was commencing towards a strategic Department has allocated to promoting take up of environmental assessment (SEA) for English and Welsh solar panel usage in (a) Mid Bedfordshire constituency waters, which will include the Pembrokeshire coast. and (b) the East of England since it was established; As a first step, we are conducting a screening exercise and if he will make a statement. [278845] to understand better the energy generation potential of marine energy devices and the realistic time scales of Mr. Kidney: Between 2001 and 2006 over £41 million when multiple devices will be installed and commissioned. was committed to solar PV through grant programmes The screening exercise will inform planning for the and field trials. Solar thermal technology, along with various studies and other activities needed to put in other renewable technologies, received support through place a strategic environmental assessment for marine the £12.5 million Clear Skies programme. 1043W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1044W

Since 2006, solar PV and solar thermal installations Stream 2A (below £100,000) have been supported under the £131 Low Carbon Buildings East of England Mid Bedfordshire Programme (LCBP). Projects supported in Mid Grant Paid Grant Paid Bedfordshire constituency and the East of England offered amount offered amount region in each year since are as follows: Solar thermal hot n/a 9,589.20 n/a 0.00 water LCBP householder stream East of England Mid Bedfordshire 2007-082 Grant Paid Grant Paid offered amount offered amount Solar photovoltaic 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 Solar thermal hot 26,546.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 2006-07 water Solar photovoltaic 367,707.32 228,187.66 0.00 0.00 1 Applications closed for Stream 2A in September 2007 2 Applications closed for Stream 2B in September 2007 Solar thermal hot 99,600.00 78,800.00 1,200.00 1,200.00 water Low Carbon Buildings Programme—Phase 2 2007-08 Projects supported in Mid Bedfordshire constituency Solar photovoltaic 68,765.00 172,673.68 0.00 0.00 and the East of England region in each year since are as Solar thermal hot 52,800.00 62,000.00 800.00 800.00 follows: water (a) There have been no accepted solar applications in Mid Bedfordshire for the duration of the programme. 2008-09 (b) The following applications were supported in the East of England area. Solar photovoltaic 183,794.80 138,134.80 9,420.00 2,500.00 East of England—value and number of project accepted per FY Solar thermal hot 102,400.00 96,800.00 3,200.00 2,800.00 water Solar PV Solar Thermal Number of Number of £ projects £ projects 2009-10 2006-07 58,988 1 9,805 1 Solar photovoltaic 37,260.00 19,420.00 0.00 0.00 2007-08 443,206 23 15,502 7 Solar thermal hot 17,200.00 14,800.00 800.00 1,200.00 2008-09 847,511 40 137,034 14 water 2009-10 0 0 0 0 Phase 1: Communities1 East of England Mid Bedfordshire Solar PV also receives support through the Renewables Grant Paid Grant Paid Obligation (RO). Since 1 April 2009, all microgenerators offered amount offered amount (50 kW and under) can apply for the highest level of support under the reformed RO (2 ROCs/MWh). We do 2006-07 not maintain data on the number of ROCs claimed per Solar photovoltaic 30,364.20 0.00 0.00 0.00 constituency or region. Solar thermal hot 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 water Vesta

2007-08 Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Solar photovoltaic 5,173.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 Energy and Climate Change if he will discuss with the Solar thermal hot 0.00 5,276.50 0.00 0.00 water Vesta turbine company the future of its factories in Southampton and on the Isle of Wight. [278380]

2008-09 Mr. Kidney: The Department and my predecessor Solar photovoltaic n/a 0.00 n/a 0.00 have held discussions with Vestas regarding their Solar thermal hot n/a 0.00 n/a 0.00 announcement to consult on the future of their UK water manufacturing capacity. No sector is immune from the economic downturn, and we are taking urgent action to 2009-10 ensure manufacturers can invest with confidence to Solar photovoltaic n/a 0.00 n/a 0.00 supply the onshore and offshore wind markets, including Solar thermal hot n/a 5,173.00 n/a 0.00 the announcement in the Budget of up to £4 billion of water new capital from the European Investment Bank that 1 Applications closed for the communities stream in April 2007 could support UK renewable energy projects, which Stream 2A (below £100,000) should provide confidence for the onshore wind supply East of England Mid Bedfordshire chain, and an intention to consult on a time-limited Grant Paid Grant Paid offered amount offered amount uplift in the level of support for offshore wind through the Renewables Obligation. 2007-081 I recognise that commercial decisions on the supply Solar photovoltaic 36,353.50 n/a 0.00 0.00 of turbines for renewable generation are a matter for the Solar thermal hot 43,549.90 n/a 0.00 0.00 companies concerned. SEEDA, the local regional water development agency, has established a task force to provide a package of co-ordinated support that provides 2008-09 the company and its employees with advice and guidance Solar photovoltaic n/a 25,000.00 n/a 0.00 during the consultation period, including—if Vestas’ 1045W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1046W consultation does lead to redundancies—support on Written Questions: Government Responses every opportunity for seeking alternative employment, training and re-skilling. Wind Power: South Downs Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when he plans to answer Question Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for 241930, on fuel poverty, tabled on 4 December 2008. Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate his [279437] Department has made of the cost of the project to construct wind turbines in the South Downs National Park. [277792] Mr. Kidney [holding answer 12 June 2009]: According to DEFRA’s records the question was answered on 18 Mr. Kidney: The Department does not hold information December 2008 but that answer never appeared in the on the cost of any proposed development in the South Official Report. The question has now been answered Downs National Park. This is a commercial matter for and I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave today the developer concerned. to question 241930. I apologise for the delay. 1047W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1048W

of ASBOs issued is not available below criminal justice Written Answers to system (CJS) area level. The available information is shown in the table. Questions The number of acceptable behaviour contracts (ABCs) is collected by the Home Office through a voluntary survey of crime and disorder reduction partnerships Thursday 25 June 2009 (CDRPs) use of antisocial behaviour tools and powers. The latest data published indicates that over 30,000 ABCs have been made between October 2003 and September 2007, with over 563 issued in the Essex HOME DEPARTMENT during the same period. Currently, data on the number of ABCs issued are Alcoholic Drinks: Retail Trade not available below regional level. Table 1: Number of anti-social behaviour orders ISSUED at all courts in the Essex criminal justice system (CJS) area, as reported to the Home Office by the Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the Court Service, January 2002 to December 2006 Home Department what plans his Department has to CJS area Number restrict the means by which business may promote alcohol consumption. [281267] 2002 2 2003 23 Mr. Alan Campbell: The Government have introduced 2004 79 legislation to establish a new code of practice for alcohol 2005 88 retailers. This will ensure that all alcohol retailers sell 2006 32 alcohol responsibly, by banning irresponsible promotions Anti-Terrorism Control Orders which encourage excessive drinking and can lead to crime and disorder. Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for the The legislation for the new code of practice in the Home Department whether he plans to bring forward Policing and Crime Bill is an enabling power, which will proposals to amend counter-terrorism legislation in allow the Home Secretary to set out a small number of light of the recent Law Lords ruling on control orders; national mandatory licensing conditions which could and if he will make a statement. [281856] apply to all alcohol retailers. It will also give licensing authorities more power to tackle local problems which Mr. Hanson: The Government keep individual control occur in many town centres, allowing them to impose a orders and counter-terrorism legislation under review. more detailed set of conditions on two or more premises We are considering the impact of this judgment and our at the same time, in an area experiencing particularly options carefully. The Government will continue to take high levels of alcohol related nuisance and disorder. all steps we can to manage the threat posed by suspected Ministers have not yet taken any final decisions on terrorists. the content of the mandatory code but some of the Community Policing measures we are consulting on include: banning offers like “all you can drink for £10”; Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for the outlawing pubs and bars offering promotions to certain groups, Home Department what recent assessment he has such as “women drink free” nights; made of the effectiveness of neighbourhood policing banning staff dispensing alcohol directly into customers’ mouths; schemes in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point. [282064] requiring that consumers are able to make informed choices when they buy alcohol; and Mr. Hanson: It is for individual police forces and authorities to ensure the effectiveness of neighbourhood requiring bars and pubs to offer smaller measures available for customers who want them. policing in their area. The Government will hold forces to account for progress through the single top-down We are holding a series of meetings with key stakeholders, target we have set them to improve public confidence including representatives of local government, enforcement that crime and anti-social behaviour issues are being agencies and the general public about the content of the tackled locally, and in the light of inspection work by code. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary (HMIC). Details of the consultation can be found at: HMIC has inspected every force in England and http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/cons-2009-alcohol/ Wales to assess their capabilities in delivering neighbourhood policing and developing citizen focus. Antisocial Behaviour Orders HMIC’s assessment in September 2008 was that all forces, including Essex police, had met this standard. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for the Data Protection Act 1998 Home Department how many (a) anti-social behaviour orders and (b) acceptable behaviour Lynne Featherstone: To ask the Secretary of State for contracts have been issued in (i) Essex and (ii) Castle the Home Department whether all refusals of access to Point in each of the last five years. [282060] personal data held by his Department for the purpose of safeguarding national security are subject to a Mr. Alan Campbell: The latest available data on antisocial certificate signed under section 28 of the Data behaviour orders (ASBOs) covers the period 1 April Protection Act 1998; and if he will make a statement. 1999 to 31 December 2006. Information on the numbers [281500] 1049W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1050W

Mr. Hanson: A certificate is not necessary to claim Police Community Support Officers: Clothing the exemption under section 28 of the Act. Normally, a certificate will be issued when the use of the exemption Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the has been challenged and the Home Secretary has satisfied Home Department how many police community himself of the need to certify the exemption. support officers were assaulted while on duty in each of the last three years. [279111] DNA: Databases Mr. Hanson [holding answer 12 June 2009]: The Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the information requested is contained in the following Home Department how many people who have not table. The increase in assaults over the last three years been convicted of a crime have their fingerprint records should be considered in the light of larger percentage retained on the National Fingerprint Database. increases in number of police community support officers [279618] in post over the same period. Number of Police Community Support Officers (PCSOs) assaulted while on Alan Johnson: The National Fingerprint Database duty: Police forces in England and Wales 2005-06 to 2007-081 does not hold criminal conviction data; it stores biometric 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 data and basic identity details which can be used to Total for all forces providing 230 141 416 align identity with records on the Police National Computer data (PNC). The PNC is an operational tool and not designed Number of forces providing 41 28 39 to produce the information requested. To obtain the data information would incur disproportionate cost. Like-for-like comparison Entry Clearances Total for all forces providing 208 n/a 396 data in 2005-06 and 2007-082 Number of forces providing 37 n/a 37 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the data in 2005-06 and 2007-083 Home Department with which countries the UK has a Number of PCSOs in post in 6,130 n/a 13,587 visa facilitation agreement. [277743] these forces at end of period2 Notes: Mr. Woolas: The EU has concluded visa facilitation 1 Figures are on a head-count basis. These data are provisional and are unaudited with police forces. Data for 2008-09 will be available later this year. agreements with a number of Western Balkans states, as 2 This represents a 90 per cent. like-for-like increase in assaults between well as Moldova, Russia and Ukraine. The UK does not 2005-06 and 2007-08, but this should be set against the increases in numbers of participate in these EU visa facilitation agreements. PCSOs in post in these 37 forces of 122 per cent. for the same period. 3 The 37 forces exclude Cumbria, Devon and Cornwall, Greater Manchester, South Wales, Thames Valley and Wiltshire. These excluded forces accounted Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the for 14 per cent. of total PCSO officer strength on 31 March 2008. Home Department how many visa applications from Police: Plymouth (a) Afghanistan and (b) Pakistan were referred from entry clearance points in those countries to London for Mr. Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for the decision (i) in each of the last five years and (ii) since Home Department (1) what the budget for policing in 27 October 2008. [280125] Plymouth was in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09; [282444] Alan Johnson: We do not hold statistics on the number of visa applications from Afghanistan or Pakistan which (2) what percentage of the budget for policing in have been referred for decisions to be made by colleagues Plymouth was spent on policing in Plympton and in the UK in the past five years. Plymstock in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09. [282446] Mr. Hanson: The Government allocate funding to Entry Clearances: Overseas Students police authorities as a whole. The allocation of resources to Plymouth is a matter for the chief constable of Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Devon and Cornwall police and the police authority, Home Department how many of the colleges that who are responsible for assessing local needs. withdrew of their own volition from the new UK Devon and Cornwall’s final budget was £256.8 million Border Agency register process currently sponsor visas for 2007-08 and £268.1 million for 2008-09. for foreign students. [278542] Police: Procurement Mr. Woolas: A total of four foreign students are currently sponsored by colleges who have withdrawn of Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for their own volition from the UK Border Agency register. the Home Department what steps his Department has The students have leave to remain which was granted to taken to promote the uptake of collaborative them prior to the introduction of new procedures on procurement strategies within police forces in England, 31 March 2009. If, when their current leave lapses, these as recommended in HM Treasury’s May 2009 review, students wish to seek further leave to remain to continue Operational Efficiency Programme: collaborative studying here, they will need to qualify under the points- procurement. [279712] based system. The figures quoted are not provided under National Mr. Hanson: I refer the hon. Member to the reply Statistics protocols and have been derived from local given to the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris management information and are therefore provisional Grayling) by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and subject to change. on 15 June 2009, Official Report, column 39W. 1051W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1052W

WOMEN AND EQUALITY Mr. Sutcliffe: Interest payments made by all our non-departmental public bodies under the Late Payment Gender Pay Gap of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998 are not recorded centrally, and therefore can be identified only at John Penrose: To ask the Minister for Women and disproportionate cost. Equality on what criteria her most recent estimate of the gender pay gap in the (a) public and (b) private Departmental Location sector is based. [282094] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Michael Jabez Foster: I refer the hon. Gentlemen to Culture, Media and Sport how much his Department the response given earlier today. spent on relocation costs for new members of staff in Breast Feeding each of the last three years. [280776]

Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister for Women and Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department has reviewed the payroll Equality if she will bring forward proposals to provide and finance system and no employee (new or existing) a legal right for women to breastfeed in public places. has received any allowance for resettlement or cost of [280408] excess fares following a move to this Department. All new members of staff are required to self-finance any Michael Jabez Foster: The Equality Bill which is resettlement costs incurred. currently before Parliament makes it clear that it is unlawful discrimination to ask a mother to leave places Departmental Lost Property such as cafes if she is breastfeeding her baby. At present we have no plans to bring forward proposals Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, to provide a legal right for women to breastfeed in Media and Sport how many laptop computers public places. belonging to (a) his Department and (b) its agencies have been lost or stolen in the last five years. [281070] Females: Human Trafficking Mr. Sutcliffe: My Department has had no laptop Mr. Bone: To ask the Minister for Women and computers lost or stolen over the last five years. Our Equality what her estimate is of the number of women only agency, Royal Parks, lost one laptop in 2004 which trafficked into the UK for the purpose of sexual did not contain any personal information. exploitation in 2008. [282208] Departmental Nurseries Michael Jabez Foster: The latest estimate supplied by Home Office is that at any one time in 2003, there were Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for up to 4,000 women had been trafficked into the UK. Culture, Media and Sport what crèche facilities his The UK Human Trafficking Centre is undertaking Department provides for its employees working in an analysis of the outcomes of Operation Pentameter 2. Whitehall. [282231] This analysis, in conjunction with the work based within the regional intelligence units, will inform a more up to Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture, Media date assessment of the extent of trafficking in the UK, and Sport does not provide any crèche facilities for which is due by the end of the year. employees. Rape: Victim Support Schemes Departmental Work Experience

Mrs. May: To ask the Minister for Women and Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Equality pursuant to the answer of 16 March 2009, Media and Sport how many (a) paid and (b) unpaid Official Report, column 826W, on rape: victim support graduate internships his Department has awarded in schemes, what use was made of the £200,000 of the each of the last six months. [281513] £1.1 million special fund for rape crisis centres which was not paid out. [282259] Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport does not directly co-ordinate or offer paid or Michael Jabez Foster: I refer the right hon. Member unpaid graduate internships. These are co-ordinated to the answer given on 19 June 2009, Official Report, through HM Treasury. The Department has not offered columns 551-52W. any paid or unpaid internships in the last six months. Rugby: Drugs CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Departmental Billing Media and Sport if he will investigate allegations of illegal drug consumption by individuals associated Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State with rugby football. [281777] for Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 20 May 2009, Official Report, column 1405W, on Mr. Sutcliffe: Investigations into allegations of illegal departmental billing, how much his Department’s drug possession is a matter for the police, who must non-departmental public bodies have paid in interest prioritise resources towards tackling crime, including under the Late Payment of Commercial Debts drugs crime with a focus on those offences which cause (Interest) Act 1998 in the last three years. [282323] the most harm. 1053W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1054W

Any prohibited substance found in a rugby union Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for footballer’s bodily specimen that is collected as part of Northern Ireland how many antisocial behaviour the National Anti-Doping Organisation’s testing orders Carrickfergus borough council applied for in programme will be fully investigated in line with the each year since 2004. [280644] anti-doping rules of the sport. Any illegal drug consumption that is suspected and indeed detected as part of a Paul Goggins: The Northern Ireland Office only collects sport’s illicit drug programme (akin to employee drug data on the number of antisocial behaviour orders testing) remains within the remit of the National Governing made. It does not record the details of applications that Body to action. have been adjourned, withdrawn or where a final decision has not been made by the court. Taking Part Survey The hon. Gentleman may wish to write to the chief executive of the council for this information. Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport when he expects the results of the Northern Ireland Compensation Agency: Manpower Taking Part Survey for 2008-09 to be published. [282253] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many people work for the Mr. Sutcliffe: Data from Taking Part for the full Compensation Agency for Northern Ireland. [282300] 12 months of the 2008-09 survey will be published on 13 August 2009. Paul Goggins: As of 31 March 2009, the Compensation Agency had 74.4 FTE (full-time equivalent) permanent staff in post. OLYMPICS Northern Ireland Forensic Science Agency: Manpower

Olympic Games 2012: Finance Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many people work for Forensic Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Science Northern Ireland. [282308] what her latest estimate is of the cost of hosting the London 2012 Olympic cycling events at the VeloPark. Paul Goggins: As of 23 June 2009, Forensic Science [280509] Northern Ireland has 203 permanent staff and 14 temporary staff in post. Tessa Jowell: The London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) has responsibility for staging the Olympic and Paralympic games including cycling events at the VeloPark. ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE The VeloPark is being constructed by the Olympic Postal Votes Delivery Authority, and in the latest London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games—Quarterly Economic Mr. Hoyle: To ask the hon. Member for South West Report (May 2009) the current anticipated final cost Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the (AFC) of the venue is reported at £94 million (net of Electoral Commission how many forms of ballot paper external funding contributions and anticipated VAT are used for postal voting in elections. [282086] savings totalling £11 million). The direct costs associated with staging the events at Mr. Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me the VeloPark come from LOCOG’s revenues which are that for each type of election the form of the ballot primarily derived from commercial sponsorship, broadcast paper is prescribed in law. The form of the documents rights, ticket sales and merchandising/licensing—not sent to postal voters, including the postal voting statement, from the public purse. voting instructions, ballot paper envelope and return There will be attributable costs to the public purse envelope, is also prescribed in law and is the same for all from London 2012 venues, including the VeloPark. elections. However, these costs such as in security and transport The Commission has issued guidance on the production systems have not yet been identified separately for individual of ballot papers and postal voting materials, but it is the events and will form part of the overall security and responsibility of each returning officer to ensure that transport budgets. the documents sent to postal voters comply with the law. The Commission understands that returning officers adopt a variety of approaches to the stationery and packaging for postal ballot packs. NORTHERN IRELAND Antisocial Behaviour Orders WORK AND PENSIONS Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many antisocial behaviour Chondrocalcinosis orders were applied for in Northern Ireland in each year since 2004. [280637] Mr. Letwin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent research has been Paul Goggins: The Northern Ireland Office only collects commissioned by (a) her Department and (b) its data on the number of antisocial behaviour orders agencies on whether chondrocalcinosis can result from made. It does not record the detail of applications. industrial accidents. [282187] 1055W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1056W

Jonathan Shaw: Neither the Department nor its agencies to clear all outstanding claims—around 1,000—as quickly have commissioned any research into chondrocalcinosis as possible. We do not know how many of these will be in the context of industrial accidents. entitled to receive disability living allowance payments until we have processed their claims. Departmental Carbon Emissions The Pension, Disability and Carers Service aims to process claims for Disability Living Allowance within Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Work an average of 38 working days for customers who reside and Pensions what estimate she has made of the in Great Britain. This includes assessing and making volume of carbon dioxide emissions arising from payments in respect of these claims. Claims from people road-based transport used for administrative residing in the EEA or Switzerland can take longer to operations by her Department in (a) 2006-07 and (b) process for a number of reasons, such as post taking 2007-08 (i) in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent longer in transit between the Department and the customer member of staff. [281038] and, for example, the processes involved to obtain supporting medical evidence from abroad, where this is Jonathan Shaw: The estimate of the carbon dioxide required. emissions arising from road-based transport for administrative operations by my Department in (a) Industrial Health and Safety 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08 (i) in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent member of staff are: Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Department for Work and Pensions—carbon dioxide emissions from road-based and Pensions what guidance her Department issues to transport the relevant authorities on the extent of areas in which (a) 2006-07 (b) 2007-08 persons are liable to be affected by a major accident

(i) Total CO2 emissions (tonnes) 22,278.96 17,662.93 occurring at (a) large-scale petrol storage depots and Full-time equivalent staff 111,734 104,830 (b) onshore non-nuclear major hazard installations.

(ii) CO2 emissions per full-time 0.199 0.169 [280621] equivalent member of staff (tonnes) Jonathan Shaw: Under Regulation 10 of the Control Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Work of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 (as amended) and Pensions what estimate she has made of the (‘COMAH’) the duty to supply local authority emergency volume of carbon dioxide emissions arising from air planners with the information necessary for them to travel by staff in her Department in (a) 2006-07 and prepare an off-site emergency plan, including the extent (b) 2007-08 (i) in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent of areas in which persons are liable to be affected by a member of staff. [281039] major accident, rests with the site operator. To assist operators and others in complying with Jonathan Shaw: The estimate of the carbon dioxide their duties under COMAH the competent authority emissions arising from air travel by staff by the Department has published the following guidance: in (a) 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08 (i) in total and (ii) per L111—“A guide to the Control of Major Accident Hazard full-time equivalent member of staff are: Regulations 1999 (as amended)”; Department for Work and Pensions—carbon dioxide emissions from air travel HSG 191 “Emergency planning for major accidents”; and, (a) 2006-07 (b) 2007-08 “COMAH—What you should know”—a public information leaflet available on the HSE website. (i) total CO2 emissions (tonnes) 4,633.42 2,789.21 Full-time equivalent staff 111,734 104,830 Jobseeker’s Allowance: Essex (ii) CO2 emissions per full-time 0.04 0.03 equivalent member of staff (tonnes) Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Disability Living Allowance and Pensions for what average length of time jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants resident in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point received JSA in each of the Dr. Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and last five years. [281848] Pensions how many UK citizens resident in other EU countries who are entitled to receive disability living Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. allowance payments have claims outstanding; and what estimate she has made of the time which will be taken The information requested falls within the responsibility to (a) assess and (b) make payment in respect of such of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority claims. [281660] to reply. Letter from Karen Dunnell, June 2009: Jonathan Shaw: Since the judgment by the European As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Court of Justice on 18 October 2007, the Department Parliamentary Question asking for what average length of time has made payments to around 1,400 disability living jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants resident in (a) Essex and allowance, attendance allowance and carer’s allowance (b) Castle Point received JSA in each of the last five years. customers who now reside in other European economic (281848) area (EEA) states or Switzerland. The number of people claiming Job Seekers Allowance (JSA) is taken from the Jobcentre Plus administrative system. The The Department started to process claims to disability length of a claim has been defined as the time between the start of living allowance from other EEA states and Switzerland an individual’s claim and that claim ending. Table 1 shows the following a written ministerial statement on 24 February median length of completed claims during the May count period 2009, Official Report, column 22WS, and are working of the last five years. 1057W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1058W

Table 1. Median length of completed claims (off-flows) of Jobseeker’s Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 22 June 2009]: Public Allowance for claimants resident in Essex and Castle Point parliamentary constituency information zones (PIZs) around large-scale petrol storage Months depots and other COMAH ‘top-tier’ onshore non-nuclear May Essex Castle Point major hazard installations are rarely circular. They reflect the effect of site specific conditions, for example, 2005 10.0 9.4 the quantities and locations of hazardous substances 2006 11.5 10.1 stored on the site, and the influence of local weather 2007 11.6 12.2 conditions. PIZs range from a few hundred metres for 2008 10.0 8.4 sites storing flammable substances to a few kilometres 2009 11.0 10.6 for sites storing toxic substances. Source: Jobcentre Plus administrative system The PIZ around a single, large scale petrol storage tank has a radius of 400 m from the edge of the tank’s Pension Service: Consultants circular bund. However, most large-scale petroleum storage sites have more than one storage tank, and in Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work some cases the PIZ will extend beyond 400 m due to the and Pensions how much the Pensions Service spent on presence of the other hazardous substances. consultants in each of the last five years. [280344] To provide details of the PIZs for all ‘top tier’ COMAH sites, including large-scale petrol storage depots, could Angela Eagle: The Pension Service spend on consultants be provided only at disproportionate cost. in the last four years is shown in the table: Social Security Benefits: Fraud Expenditure spent on consultants by the Financial year Pension Service (£ million) Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2005-06 23.451 and Pensions (1) what use her Department makes of 2006-07 26.082 voice risk analysis products; and what assessment she 2007-08 20.583 has made of the effectiveness of their use in her 2008-09 8.057 Department’s work; [277050] Source: The Departmental Resource Management system Investment Management (2) which companies supply voice risk analysis Report Period 2 products to her Department. [277051] The Pension Service did not account for the costs of consultancy services separate from other related costs Jonathan Shaw: The Department is currently funding in 2004-05. Figures could therefore be obtained only at trials of voice risk analysis technology in 24 local authorities. disproportionate cost. These trials are due to finish in December 2009 and an evaluation report will be produced after that date. Petrol: Storage In 2007-08 the Department conducted small scale trials of voice risk analysis technology in Jobcentre Plus Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and local authorities. The Department’s assessment of and Pensions what developments within development these trials has been made available. I refer the hon. proximity zones surrounding (a) large-scale petrol Member to the written ministerial statement of 11 March storage depots and (b) onshore non-nuclear major 2009, Official Report, columns 19-20WS. hazard installations do not comply with Health and Safety Executive guidance on development within such Capita Group, in conjunction with Digilog UK, assisted zones; and if she will make a statement. [280695] in the implementation of Voice Risk Analysis technology in small scale trials in local authorities and Jobcentre Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 22 June 2009]: Plus in 2007-08. This included supplying the system and Development proximity zones (DPZs) around large-scale advising on its use and training. petrol storage depots were introduced by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) in July 2008. Since then Social Security Benefits: Overseas Residence HSE has advised against the granting of planning permission on safety grounds for five planning applications David Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for Work which involved developments within a DPZ. In one of and Pensions to which benefits recipients who move to these cases the planning authority granted planning another country in the European Economic Area permission. continue to be entitled when they are no longer resident DPZs only apply to large-scale petrol storage depots. in the UK; and what rules apply to such recipients. HSE does not record information on the number of [281742] developments within the consultation distances around other onshore non-nuclear major hazard installations Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 23 June 2009]: In where planning authorities have granted planning general a person moving to reside in another EEA permission following HSE’s advice against development. country can take the following benefits with them if they have satisfied the conditions of entitlement: Public Information Zones State retirement pension Contributory employment and support allowance Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the radius is of public information Contributory jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) zones surrounding (a) large-scale petrol storage Bereavement benefits depots and (b) onshore non-nuclear major hazard Industrial injuries benefits installations; and if she will make a statement. [280692] Winter fuel payments 1059W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1060W

Cash sickness benefits like statutory sick pay, disability living TREASURY allowance (care component) (DLA), attendance allowance (AA) and carer’s allowance (CA) Maternity benefits which are based on a period of employment Crown Estate Commissioners and a level of earnings The right to retain the benefit is tied to conditions specific to each benefit. For example, as far as JSA is Mr. Salmond: To ask the Chancellor of the concerned, to qualify in the first place a person would Exchequer, (1) if he will list the names and locations of have to have done some work in the UK. It can then be structures sited on Crown Estate land but not owned retained for up to three months, provided that person by the Crown Estate to which repair work has been has already qualified for it in the UK and is going to the carried out by the Crown Estate; [281913] other member state to look for work and fulfils that (2) what duty the Crown Estate has to maintain and country’s job seeking conditions. repair structures located on land owned by the Crown Unemployed: Training Estate where these contribute towards coastal protection; [281915] Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (3) if he will list the names and locations of (a) piers and Pensions (1) what estimate she has made of the and (b) harbours for which the Crown Estate has a marginal cost of providing the 75,000 additional duty of care. [281916] training places under the six month offer to the unemployed; [271709] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Crown Estate land comprises (2) how long on average a training course offered as extensive urban, rural, foreshore and seabed interests. It part of the six month offer to the unemployed will last; does not keep an ownership record of all the structures, [271710] including piers and harbours, on its land. (3) what qualifications can be gained as a result of the training places to be provided as part of the six The Crown Estate does not erect structures on the month offer to the unemployed; [271711] foreshore and seabed on its land. It permits third parties to do so by granting leases. Such leases normally oblige (4) who she expects to deliver the 75,000 new training tenants to repair structures on the land they lease. places to be provided as part of the six month offer to the unemployed. [271712] The Crown Estate has no duty to maintain and repair structures on its land for coast protection purposes. Kevin Brennan: I have been asked to reply. Nor has it any general duty of care as landowner for The Government are committed to ensuring that people facing piers or harbours on its land, whether leased or not. In redundancy and long term unemployment are able to access the common with all landowners, the Crown Estate has a help they need to improve skills and find employment. Since April statutory duty of care to take reasonable steps to prevent 2009, the government has made available a new package of help foreseeable injury to persons, and has to comply with for the unemployed including a £100m package of training for any statutory notices. 70,000 people under notice of redundancy, newly redundant, or close to the labour market. This is part of a wider package of advice and guidance available to jobseekers. Mr. Salmond: To ask the Chancellor of the The Government are also investing £83 million over the next Exchequer how much has been spent by the Crown two years to support 75,000 people who reach six month JSA Estate on repairs to historic structures within its care or claim point to up-skill or re-skill in an area linked to the needs of ownership in each of the last five years. [281914] the local labour market in order to help them get a job. Provision will be tailored to meet the individual’s needs and we expect learners typically to follow Skills for Life, Level 2 or Level 3 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Crown Estate’s portfolio vocational training. Training will be linked to the needs of the includes over 1,000 listed buildings and structures, and employers in the local job market. Learners can progress onto qualifications from this provision through the Adult Learner many historic structures which may not be listed. Total Responsive budget or through Train to Gain if they are in figures for repairs to historic structures over the last five employment. years are not readily available, and to aggregate all In the period funded through this programme, we expect individual repair bills would involve disproportionate learners to achieve a significant step on the path to the qualification time and cost. of their choice. However, we recognise that it may take longer for them to complete the full qualification and additional support will be available to enable them to do that through Train to Gain Mr. Salmond: To ask the Chancellor of the or Adult Learner Responsive funding. At this time it is not Exchequer how much was spent by the Crown Estate possible to confirm the average length of training overall which on (a) piers and (b) harbours (i) owned by the Crown will depend on the nature of that training, and whether it is full or Estate and (ii) located on Crown Estate land in each of part time. the last five years. [281917] Contracts have initially been allocated to colleges, and will be reviewed on a regular basis to ensure that there is a good coverage and learners’ needs are being met. A list of providers with whom Sarah McCarthy-Fry: In relation to piers, the Crown initial allocations have been agreed has been placed in the House Estate has spent £17,649.98 in connection with works at Libraries. However, allocations may change in response to demand the Generator Pier, Newburgh in Fife dating between and provision may be extended to other providers in the future in certain circumstances. May 2007 and May 2009. A further package of help for young unemployed people was As far as harbours are concerned, the Crown Estate announced in the Budget and includes £122 million for training. has spent £2,291,000 in the last five years as follows: 1061W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1062W

£000 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

River Hamble, investment in and 224.5 321.9 188.8 30.4 91.8 maintenance of mooring piles and pontoons Tobermory, investment in pontoons — — — 240.0 — Tarbert, investment in pontoons ———— 645.2 Wick, investment in pontoons ———— 1250.0 Crown Estate Marine Stewardship Fund, 34.0 23.0 86.0 116.3 40.0 investment in variety of minor structural projects throughout the UK but mainly in Scotland 1 Committed but not yet paid.

Departmental Nurseries Members: Correspondence

Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Steve Webb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what crèche facilities his Department provides for its when he plans to respond to the letter from the hon. employees working in Whitehall. [282230] Member for Northavon of 25 February 2009 on behalf of Mr. Bracey of Coalpit Heath, acknowledged by his Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Treasury does not provide Department with the reference: 1/67931/2009. [273378] any crèche facilities. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: A reply has been sent to the The Department supports its staff through the provision hon. Member. of child care vouchers for those eligible. These can be Monetary Policy Committee used to fund attendance at crèches at the most convenient locations for staff. Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the The Department is a member of the Westminster Exchequer whether taking up full-time residence in the Holiday Playscheme, which operates during school holidays UK is a condition of the appointment of Adam Posen and is open to children aged 4 years and 9 months up to to the Monetary Policy Committee. [281897] 12 years of age. The Treasury provides two rooms for this play scheme, which can accommodate up to 18 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As part of the process for children. appointing members to the Monetary Policy Committee announced by the Chancellor in June 2008, full time EU: Legislation residence in the UK is required. This is the basis upon which interviews are held and the basis upon which Dr. Adam Posen will be taking up his position in September Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2009. what estimate he has made of the proportion of statutory obligations provided for by legislation on Revenue and Customs: Maladministration matters for which his Department is responsible which were introduced as a consequence of obligations Mr. Gale: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer arising from EU legislation in the latest period for what the error rate in activity dealing with EU claims which figures are available. [281859] relating to business and taxation was at HM Revenue and Customs (a) Ty-Glas, (b) Bootle and (c) Nottingham office in the latest period for which figures Sarah McCarthy-Fry: No such estimate has been are available. [277104] made. Figures for the proportion of statutory obligations introduced as a consequence of obligations arising from Mr. Timms [holding answer 1 June 2009]: The EU legislation on matters for which the Treasury are information requested is not held and could be obtained responsible are not available. only at disproportionate cost. Discrepancies in claims relating to business and taxation can emanate from a Income Tax wide range of sources. Revenue and Customs: Manpower Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimated additional revenue would be Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer raised in 2010-11 by increasing the higher rate of pursuant to the answer of 18 June 2009, Official income tax to 50 per cent. for one year for those with Report, column 444W, on HM Revenue and Customs: incomes in excess of £60,000 per annum from April manpower, how many grades of officer there are in 2010. [281528] HM Revenue and Customs. [282153]

Mr. Timms [holding answer 22 June 2009]: The estimated Mr. Timms: In HM Revenue and Customs there are yield from lowering to £60,000 the threshold at which nine main grades of officer: income will be taxed at the additional and dividend 1. Administration assistant additional rates of 50 per cent. and 42.5 per cent. 2. Assistant officer respectively is likely to involve significant behavioural 3. Officer effects. The estimated yield incorporating these behavioural 4. Higher officer effects can be provided only at disproportionate cost. 5. Senior officer 1063W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1064W

6. Fast stream/trainee Mr. Timms: The UK has concluded tax information 7 Grade 7 exchange agreements with the Crown Dependencies. 8. Grade 6 The agreement with the Isle of Man was signed on 9. Senior civil servant (SCS). 29 September 2008, with Guernsey on 20 January 2009 and with Jersey on 10 March 2009. The SCS grade can be broken down further: (a) SCS 1 (b) SCS 1A Valuation Office: Standards (c) SCS 2 (d) SCS 3. Mr. Pickles: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Swine Flu what assistance the Office for Government Commerce has provided to the Valuation Office Agency on Gateway reviews; and what the (a) title of each project Adam Price: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer is and (b) purpose for which assistance has been whether his Department has made an estimate of the provided is. [252431] effects of swine influenza on inflation in the UK. [280230] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Office of Government Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Treasury’s latest assessment Commerce has arranged several OGC Gateway™ reviews of the economy, including inflation, was published in for the Valuation Office Agency (VOA) on a number of Budget 2009 (HC 407). Estimates of the effects of swine their projects. influenza on inflation in the UK are inherently uncertain Department/ Start of and would depend crucially on the necessary assumptions Project name associated body Gateway Gate employed. However, HM Treasury continues to monitor all relevant factors from a range of sources to inform its Data Collection HMRC/VOA 24 September 1 assessment of the UK Economy. The effects on inflation 2003 from economic and other developments are also closely Manual Valuations HMRC/VOA 6 April 2004 1 Manual Valuations HMRC/VOA 17 October 4 monitored by the Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) 2005 of the Bank of England. The MPC has full operational CTR 2007—IT HMRC/VOA 26 April 2005 1 independence from the Government in deciding how to Project meet the Government’s inflation target of 2 per cent. on CTR 2007— HMRC/VOA 9 May 2005 2 a Consumer Price Index basis. Enquiries and Appeals Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent estimate he has made of the cost to the UK In January 2008 HMRC received delegated authority economy of the outbreak of swine flu. [282190] from the OGC to arrange and carry out Gateway reviews on projects and programmes designated as ‘medium Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Treasury’s latest assessment risk’ within HMRC and its associated agencies and of the economy was published in Budget 2009 (HC non-departmental public bodies. HMRC carried out a 407). Estimates of the potential cost to the UK economy Gateway 0 Review of the VOA’s World Class Programme, of an outbreak of swine flu are inherently uncertain in October 2008. and would depend crucially on the necessary assumptions The OGC Gateway Process is designed to provide employed. HM Treasury continues to monitor all relevant independent assurance to senior responsible owners factors from a range of sources to inform its assessment (SROs) across central civil Government on the health of of the UK economy. their programmes and projects. The selection of the Gateway review team is undertaken independently of Taxation: Alcoholic Drinks VOA by the HMRC Gateway team. The review team leader would be from another Government Department Mr. Oaten: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the review team members would be from within pursuant to the answer of 18 June 2009, Official HMRC and independent of the VOA project. Report, columns 444-45W, on taxation: alcoholic The purpose of the individual Gateway reviews detailed drinks, whether he has made an estimate of the revenue above is as follows: that could result from the taxation of expenditure on advertising by businesses producing alcoholic drinks. Gate 0: Strategic assessment [282211] This is a programme-only review that investigates the direction and planned outcomes of the programme, together with the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: No estimate has been made of progress of its constituent projects. It is repeated over the life of the revenue which could be raised if alcohol advertising the programme at key decision points. were to be subject to taxation. Gate 1: Business justification This first project review comes after the strategic business case Taxation: Crown Dependencies has been prepared. It focuses on the project’s business justification prior to the key decision on approval for development proposal. Mr. Drew: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Gate 2: Delivery strategy what recent progress he has made in negotiations with This review investigates the outline business case and the Crown Dependencies on the establishment of tax delivery strategy before any formal approaches are made to information exchange agreements; and if he will make prospective suppliers or delivery partners. The review may be a statement. [281779] repeated in long or complex procurement situations. 1065W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1066W

Gate 4: Readiness for service Mr. Quentin Davies: The number of service personnel This review focuses on the readiness of the organisation to go who have had salary payments reduced or stopped in live with the necessary business changes, and the arrangements order to offset overpayments made as a result of errors for management of the operational services. in the Joint Personnel Administration system since April 2006 is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. DEFENCE Since roll-out in 2006, significant steps have been Armed Forces: Deployment taken to eliminate errors in the Joint Personnel Administration (JPA) (ORACLE) system. To rectify Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence problems identified, 166 fixes to the system have been how many UK military personnel are deployed on undertaken, and a further 344 other system changes operations; and what the location is of each such have been made. deployment. [279964] For the number of personnel overpaid during the period April 2006 to September 2006 inclusive, I refer Bill Rammell: The endorsed force levels for UK military the right hon. Member to the answer given by the operations are provided in the following table by location. previous Under-Secretary of State for Defence and Minister for Veterans (Derek Twigg) on 7 November Endorsed number1 (at 31 May 2006, Official Report, column 1470W,to the hon. Member Location 2009) for Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Williams). Data for Afghanistan 28,300 October 2006 to December 2006 inclusive is not held Iraq 3— centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate At sea 41,050 cost. Falklands/South Atlantic 1,500 For the number of personnel overpaid during the Qatar 250 calendar year 2007, 1 refer the right hon. Member to Cyprus 300 the reply given by my noble Friend, the Minister for Kuwait 51,500 International Defence and Security, Baroness Taylor of Kosovo <50 Bolton, to the noble Lord, Lord Selkirk of Douglas in Bahrain 6150 another place on 21 January 2008 and 5 February 2008, Oman 150 Official Report, House of Lords, columns WA2 and Bosnia <50 WA163. Other6 100 Although similarly detailed information about the 1 Rounded to 50 number of personnel overpaid from January 2008 to 2 On 29 April 2009, my right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister, date is not held as JPA is now operating a steady state, announced on 29 April 2009, Official Report, column 869, a temporary an audit undertaken during 2008 identified some 5,800 increase in troop numbers to 9,000 for Operation Herrick to bolster personnel who may have received duplicate, or overlapping security during the Afghanistan election period. payments of Operational Allowance. An enhancement 3 On 15 June, the Prime Minister set out for Parliament on 15 June 2009, Official Report, column 21, the current number of UK military to the JPA (ORACLE) system to prevent a reoccurrence personnel in Iraq (around 500) as we draw down our forces after the was introduced in July 2008. conclusion of the combat mission and the number we expect to Delays or errors in individual payments can also remain in Iraq after the completion of the drawdown by the end of July (up to 100). occur as the result of late or incorrect inputs by individuals 4 Numbers at sea in support of Operations TELIC and CALASH. or unit human resources staff. This information is not 5 Temporary increases in endorsed posts during the period of the held centrally and could be provided at disproportionate Operation TELIC drawdown, these numbers fluctuate daily but will cost. not exceed these levels. 6 Small scale deployments in support of EU and UN missions, Armed Forces: Sick Leave headquarters liaison officers and capacity building activities. The precise number of personnel in each theatre at Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence any one time fluctuates significantly on a daily basis for how many and what percentage of armed forces a variety of reasons, including: mid-tour rest and personnel in each service were (a) unable to deploy recuperation; temporary absence for training; evacuation and (b) only able to undertake limited deployment for for medical reasons; the roulement of forces; visits; and medical reasons in each year since 2003. [275017] a range of other factors. Armed Forces: Pay Mr. Kevan Jones: The MOD collates, on a quarterly basis, management information on the number of service Sir Malcolm Rifkind: To ask the Secretary of State personnel “fit for task”, which provides a measure of for Defence (1) how many service personnel have had the medical fitness of all trained armed forces personnel. salary payments reduced or stopped in order to offset These figures are broken down into three categories: overpayments made as a result of errors in the Joint medically fully fit, medically not fully fit, and medically Personnel Administration system since April 2006; unfit. It should be noted that the majority of those [281712] personnel who fall under the category of medically not (2) what steps his Department has taken to eliminate fully fit remain fit enough to work in some capacity and errors in the Joint Personnel Administration system; therefore continue to make a contribution to operational [281713] effectiveness, often within theatres of operation. (3) how many service personnel have been overpaid Prior to 1 April 2006, information was collected by as a result of errors in the Joint Personnel the single services for internal management purposes, Administration system since 7 April 2006. [281714] but was not required to be reported centrally in a 1067W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1068W standardised format. This information could be provided and 1664W. Medically fit for task figures for the third only at disproportionate cost. and fourth quarters of 2008-09 can be found in the For information on the period covering the first following table. Personnel numbers are rounded to the quarter of 2006-07 through to the second quarter of nearest 10, and percentages, rounded to one decimal 2008-09, I refer the hon. Member to my answers of point. 20 and 22 January 2009, Official Report, columns 1262W

Naval Service Army1 RAF Percentage of Percentage of Percentage of Number trained strength Number trained strength Number trained strength

2008-09 Q3 Fully fit for task 30,390 87.4 — — 34,630 88.1 Not fully fit for 4,320 12.4 — — 4,500 11.5 task Unfit for task 70 0.2 — — 160 0.4 2008-09 Q4 Fully fit for task 30,340 87.2 — — 34,400 88.1 Not fully fit for 4,370 12.6 — — 4,510 11.5 task Unfit for task 70 0.2 — — 170 0.4 1 Since 2007 the Army has collated figures for its deployable elements only not its total trained strength.

Since 1 April 2007 the Army has collated quarterly next 12 months up to the end of financial year 2009-10 figures for its deployable elements only, rather than for is provided in the following table: its total trained strength. For this reason the figures are not comparable to those provided by the Navy and £ million RAF in the same period. The Army’s deployability Direct Resource DEL returns provide a snapshot, on a specific day, of the and Capital Indirect deployability of Army personnel broken down into the Programme DEL Resource DEL Total following categories: fully deployable; limited deployability (LD); and personnel unable to deploy (PUD). Many of Aircraft Carriers 419 29 448 those personnel classed as LD can and will deploy to Joint Strike Fighter 142 50 192 Trident 390 1 391 operational theatres, likewise PUDs will be able to Replacement undertake non-deployed duties. Programme The following table provides the figures as at 1 December Type 45 Destroyers 443 114 557 2008 and 1 April 2009; personnel numbers are rounded Future Rapid Effect 45 0 45 to the nearest 10, and percentages rounded to one System Astute Class 561 80 641 decimal point. Submarine Typhoons 903 92 995 Percentage of Number deployable strength Note: Indirect Resource DEL includes a notional Cost of Capital Charge and Depreciation. 1 December 2008 The total estimated expenditure includes equipment Fully deployable 57,700 78.8 procurement costs only and excludes any related equipment LD for medical reason 7,910 10.8 support or overhead expenditure. PUD for reasons 3,900 5.3 Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 April 2009 Defence how much was spent on defence procurement in each of the armed services in the latest year for Fully deployable 57,770 78.4 which figures are available; and how much of that LD for medical reason 8,190 11.1 expenditure was incurred in Scotland in each service. PUD for reasons 3,860 5.2 [281651] For the last quarter, the reporting date has been altered to 1 April, bringing it in line with the financial Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Defence budget is spent as year and other reporting. efficiently as possible to deliver value for money in producing required military capability, but is not allocated Defence: Procurement on a regional basis or by individual service. For example, military equipment is provided for the armed forces by Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence the Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) organisation, what estimate he has made of the cost of the which receives the top level requirements under the procurement of (a) aircraft carriers, (b) Joint Strike guidance of the Deputy Chief of Defence Staff (Capability). Fighter, (c) the Trident replacement programme, (d) These are determined on a capability basis. Type 45 destroyers, (e) the Future Rapid Effects Estimates for direct MOD expenditure on equipment System, (f) Astute Class submarines and (g) and non-equipment, and civilian and service personnel Typhoons in the next 12 months. [280829] in Scotland are provided in the following table. Expenditure has been expressed as a percentage of the MOD’s total Mr. Quentin Davies: The current estimated expenditure worldwide actual cash expenditure. It is not possible to on the procurement of the programmes listed for the give a final figure for expenditure for Scotland as our 1069W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1070W contractors may place subcontracts with organisations process for appeal against their sentence of the outside Scotland. Moreover, companies in Scotland imprisoned chairman and vice chairman of the may receive defence subcontracts from firms elsewhere Southern Cameroons National Council. [282179] in the UK. Scotland 2006-07 Chris Bryant: The chairman of the Southern Cameroons £ million at current prices (VAT National Council (SCNC), Chief Ayamba Ette Otun, exclusive) together with the vice chairman Nfor Ngala Nfor, and activist Enow John Enow were released on bail on Total 1,620 3 June 2009 and remain at liberty. The process by which Of which: they may appeal against their sentence is a matter of Service personnel costs 590 Cameroon law and for their legal representatives to Civilian personnel cost 190 advise them. Equipment expenditure 520 Non-equipment expenditure 320 Commonweatlh

Total as percentage of net cash 5.2 requirement Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Total as percentage of near cash 5.3 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when his Note: Department’s White Paper on the Commonwealth is Figures rounded to nearest £10 million expected to be published; and if he will make a The MOD presents estimates of annual procurement statement. [281978] of goods and service in the UK broken out by industry sector and estimates of aggregate MOD equipment Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Foreign and Commonwealth expenditure annually in “The UK Defence Statistics2, Office has no current plans to publish a White Paper on which can be found at the following link: the Commonwealth. http://www.dasa.mod.uk/UKDS2008/ukds.html The most recent data covers 2002-03 to 2006-07 and Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for the data for 2008-09 will be published on 27 September Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what (a) financial 2009. Given that there is no regional consideration to and (b) other contribution his Department will make the defence budget, we will no longer produce a regional to the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting breakdown of direct defence employment and associated in Trinidad and Tobago in November 2009. [281979] expenditure after then. There is a strong manufacturing base in Scotland as a Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Government of Trinidad and result of sustained investment by the UK Government. Tobago will meet overall costs of hosting the The Scottish Affairs Select Committee report into Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting Employment and Skills for the Defence Industry in (CHOGM), which takes place in Port of Spain in Scotland, published in June 2008, said that “the defence November 2009. industry is vital to Scotland”. Defence and aerospace We have shared experience of running international industries generate nearly £2.31 billion in sales and summits with the Government of Trinidad and Tobago together with the MOD support almost 50,000 jobs and and remain in regular contact with the National Secretariat a record number of apprentices. of Trinidad and Tobago which is responsible for co-coordinating CHOGM. EC Law Departmental Nurseries Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the proportion of statutory obligations provided for by legislation on Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for matters for which his Department is responsible which Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what crèche were introduced as a consequence of obligations facilities his Department provides for its employees arising from EU legislation in the latest period for working in Whitehall. [282229] which figures are available. [281867] Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Department has not had to (FCO) operates a nursery in King Charles Street, Whitehall introduce new legislative instruments as a result of for up to 42 children from 8-6 pm Monday to Friday. obligations under EU Legislation. Places are open to children of staff, whether fathers or mothers and whether full-time or part-time employees. The nursery is certified by the Office for Standards in FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Education, Children’s Services and Skills (OFSTED) as an approved day care facility for children between six Cameroon: Prisoners months and five years of age. The nursery is managed by Bright Horizons Family Solutions, a company Mr. Chaytor: To ask the Secretary of State for specialising in the running of workplace nurseries. The Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will request a FCO nursery received a top ‘outstanding’ mark in a report from the Cameroon authorities on the (a) recent OFSTED inspection (24 April 2009). health of and (b) availability of medical assistance, (c) The FCO also runs a nursery for staff working at its physical conditions at the place of detention and (d) second site, Hanslope Park, near Milton Keynes. 1071W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1072W

European Commission with regard to the actions of the security forces. Officials from our embassy in Jakarta last visited Papua on 17, Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 18 and 19 June 2009. They held meetings with officials, and Commonwealth Affairs in which international academics and non-governmental organisations in the bodies the European Commission has representational region. Although recognising that problems remain, rights greater than those of the UK. [277085] they report a general consensus that there has been a more sensitive and tempered response to some incidents Chris Bryant: In order to answer this question we of unrest, including in the Puncak Jaya area, by the law would require an assessment of the division of competence enforcement agencies. between the Community and the member states in respect of all international agreements to which the Iran: Internet Community and the member states are parties. This would involve a disproportionate cost. Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make Georgia: International Assistance representations at EU level for a prohibition on the supply to Iran of technology to inspect, monitor and Sir Malcolm Rifkind: To ask the Secretary of State filter internet content; and if he will make a statement. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his [282196] Department has taken to ensure the continuation of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Mr. Ivan Lewis: We are deeply concerned by the Europe’s mission to Georgia. [282163] restrictions that the Iranian authorities have placed on communications networks in Iran and have made clear Chris Bryant: We lobbied Russia several times before that we support the right of the Iranian people to the first suspension of negotiations over the Organisation communicate and express their views freely. We and our for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) mission EU partners have set this out in recent statements. We in Georgia in December 2008. In response to the Greek will continue to monitor the situation. Chairmanship’s proposal to revive negotiations, the UK accepted in principle a compromise text that met Middle East: Armed Conflict many of Russia’s key concerns. Despite the efforts of the Greek chairmanship, Russia decided to block the renewal of the mandate. Russia’s counter-proposals Mr. Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for were unacceptable to the other participating states in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the the OSCE. Government’s policy is on the preconditions necessary for the establishment of a lasting two-state solution The UK has begun discussions with our partners at with regard to Israel and Palestine. [281492] the OSCE to ensure a continued OSCE presence in Georgia and the separatist regions, building on the Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK welcomes the Israeli Prime work previously done by the monitoring mission. We Minister’s support for a two-state solution. His speech remain keen for the OSCE’s expertise in human rights on 14 June 2009 was a positive step towards making and democratisation to be used towards peace and further progress on the peace process. However, more is stability in Georgia. Russia’s Foreign Ministry said in a needed from Israel on the issue of settlements: a complete statement on 18 June 2009 that it did not want to see the freeze in settlement construction, in line with Israel’s OSCE leave the region definitively. We will urge Russia Roadmap commitments. We also emphasis that the to stick to this assertion and participate constructively Palestinians should continue to be prepared to engage in talks. in negotiations with Israel towards achieving a two-state solution. Indonesia Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received on the types of weapon used by representations his Department has made to the Israeli forces in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead. Indonesian government on reported attacks on [281832] civilians in the Puncak Jaya region of West Papua; and if he will make a statement. [281990] Mr. Ivan Lewis: We have seen unconfirmed reports from journalists, non-governmental organisations and Mr. Ivan Lewis: My hon. Friend, the then Minister of other international observers about weapons and types State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Bill of ammunition used by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) Rammell) raised continuing UK concern at the human during Operation Cast Lead. rights situation in Papua with Indonesian Foreign Minister Of specific concern was the UN Board of Inquiry’s Wirajuda when they met in Jakarta on 10 February findings on the use of white phosphorus. The Israeli 2009, and again at the Asia Europe Meeting in Hanoi authorities carried out an investigation and concluded on 25 May 2009. The UK continues to advocate meaningful that the IDF’s use of white phosphorus did not breach devolution, appropriate security measures and greater its obligations under international law. Nevertheless, transparency in Papua. more generally, IDF investigations have stated that The Indonesian Government has made progress on there were a very small number of incidents in which human rights over the last decade. During the recent intelligence or operational errors took place during the elections, we were aware of reports of tensions in Papua fighting. 1073W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1074W

It is important that Israel continue to ensure that Russia refused to agree to terms which were acceptable credible allegations are fully investigated. My right hon. to all 55 of the other OSCE participating states, and Friend the Foreign Secretary reiterated this in his statement insisted that OSCE monitors could not have full freedom at the UN Security Council debate on 11 May 2009. of movement. This development, together with Russia’s decision on 16 June 2009 to veto a resolution to extend Nuclear Weapons the mandate of the UN Observer Mission in Georgia, undermines our continuing efforts to find a peaceful Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for political resolution to the conflict in Georgia and to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs under what support the humanitarian needs of those affected by international security conditions the Government conflict. would participate in the multilateral nuclear We, together with our OSCE partners, will look for disarmament process. [281899] alternative ways for the OSCE to engage in Georgia and the separatist regions which continue to respect Georgian Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friends the Prime sovereignty and territorial integrity. We urge Russia to Minister and Foreign Secretary have set out the UK’s respond constructively. vision for a World Free From Nuclear Weapons, and the Government are at the forefront of efforts to create Pakistan: Politics and Government the conditions to bring this about. The Foreign Secretary set out these conditions in detail in the paper “Lifting Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nuclear Shadow” published in February 2009. As Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment soon as it becomes useful for our arsenal to be included has been made of the security situation in (a) the in a broader negotiation, we stand ready to participate province of Sindh and (b) Karachi following violence and act. in early June; and if he will make a statement. [281932]

Nuclear Weapons: Arms Control Mr. Ivan Lewis: Ethnic tension and political rivalry leading to violence is not uncommon in Karachi. However, Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for increased violence in Karachi and Sindh over the last Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to his six weeks is a cause for concern, particularly given the Department’s evidence to the Foreign Affairs apparent targeting of political activists. We understand Committee’s inquiry into Global Security: Non 17 people affiliated to local political parties have been Proliferation, HC 222, EV 118, under what arrested. We continue to closely monitor the situation circumstances the UK will include Trident warheads in and urge all parties to refrain from violence. a negotiation to reduce warhead numbers; and if he will make a statement. [282049] Sri Lanka

Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Government are at the forefront Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for of international efforts to create the conditions for a Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions world free from nuclear weapons. My right hon. Friend has he had with the Sri Lankan government on the the Prime Minister said on 17 March 2009 that as soon return of all internally-displaced people from the as it becomes useful for our minimum deterrent, currently former conflict zones in the north of the country to represented by the Trident system, to be included in a their homes by the end of 2009; and if he will make a broader disarmament negotiation, we stand ready to statement. [281977] participate and act. However, to reach that point would require a much more secure and predictable global Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign political and security environment. My right hon. Friend Secretary raised this issue with the Sri Lankan Foreign the Foreign Secretary set out in detail the conditions Minister Bogollagama when they met on 5 June 2009. needed for the abolition of nuclear weapons and the The Foreign Minister reaffirmed the commitment of steps that could be taken towards achieving them in the the Government of Sri Lanka to resettle the majority of paper “Lifting the Nuclear Shadow”published in February internally displaced persons before the end of the year. 2009. We will continue to urge the Government of Sri Lanka to make progress on this commitment and we stand Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe ready to offer practical assistance through the Department for International Development’s humanitarian funding Sir Malcolm Rifkind: To ask the Secretary of State programme. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had in the Council of Ministers of Sudan: Elections the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) on the continuation of the OSCE Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign mission in Georgia after 30 June 2009; and if he will and Commonwealth Affairs what plans his make a statement. [281963] Department has to monitor the presidential elections in Sudan in 2010. [281965] Chris Bryant: Despite the admirable efforts of the Greek chairmanship to reach a compromise, we deeply Mr. Ivan Lewis: We would like the 2010 presidential regret Russia’s decision to block the renewal of the elections in Sudan to be observed by competent and mandate for the Organisation for Security and Co-operation experienced bodies and organisations, including for example in Europe (OSCE) Mission to Georgia, which is now the EU. The EU received an invitation from the Sudanese due to close on 30 June 2009. Ministry of Foreign Affairs and National Elections 1075W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1076W

Commission in February 2009 to join a group of other quality and road traffic congestion of a third runway at countries and regional bodies to supply electoral observers. Heathrow airport. [282110] The UK will offer any assistance we can to the observer mission, including personnel. Paul Clark: Ministers have had no such discussions since the Heathrow decisions were announced to Parliament Tamils on 15 January by my right hon. Friend, the then Secretary of State for Transport. It is now for BAA to decide how Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for to take matters forward in the context of a planning Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has application. received reports of Tamil fighters aiding Taliban forces in Afghanistan. [281708] Overcrowding: Rail Network Mr. Ivan Lewis: We have received no reports of Tamil fighters aiding the Taliban forces in Afghanistan. 14. Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent discussions the USA Secretary of State has had on overcrowding on the rail network. [282112] Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has Chris Mole: The Secretary of State has regular meetings received of the shooting at the United States Holocaust with the train operating companies to discuss progress Memorial Museum in Washington DC on 10 June; and on delivery of our commitments to increase capacity as if he will make a statement. [280991] set out in the Rail White Paper, “Delivering a Sustainable Railway”. 543 new vehicles have already been ordered Mr. Ivan Lewis: We were shocked and saddened to to provide additional capacity in our busiest cities. This hear of the tragic death of a security guard following forms part of the £10 billion that we have committed to the shooting incident at the Holocaust Memorial Museum spend on enhancing rail capacity by 2014. in Washington DC on 10 June 2009. I have received no formal reports of this incident. Speed Limits

15. Richard Ottaway: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent discussions the TRANSPORT Secretary of State has had on speed limits on Satellite Navigation Devices single-carriageway roads. [282113]

11. Jo Swinson: To ask the Minister of State, Paul Clark: In the current consultation entitled “A Department for Transport what assessment his Safer Way”, we propose a targeted approach in which Department has made of the merits of regulating local traffic authorities are encouraged to consider lower speed limits on those single carriageway roads where satellite navigation devices. [282108] there are particular casualty problems. As part of the Paul Clark: The Department for Transport has been consultation the Department’s officials are conducting reviewing route guidance system issues—including discussions with a number of interested parties. regulation—and believes that national regulation is not the most effective mechanism to address many of the Uninsured Drivers concerns often associated with use of satellite navigation devices. 16. Paul Holmes: To ask the Minister of State, Rail Network: Capacity Department for Transport what steps the Secretary of State is taking to reduce the number of uninsured drivers. [282114] 12. Ann Winterton: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent assessment he Paul Clark: We have already enabled the police to has made of the adequacy of the capacity of the rail have data on uninsured vehicles for use with their network. [282109] automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) equipment, and to seize and destroy vehicles being driven uninsured. Chris Mole: The Secretary of State has regular meetings with the train operating companies to discuss progress We introduced a new offence in August 2008 of on delivery of our commitments to increase capacity as “causing death by driving while unlicensed, disqualified set out in the Rail White Paper, “Delivering a Sustainable or uninsured”, which carries a custodial sentence of up Railway”. 543 new vehicles have already been ordered to two years. to provide additional capacity in our busiest cities. This The Road Safety Act 2006 introduced a new offence forms part of the £10 billion that we have committed to of being a registered keeper of a vehicle for which there spend on enhancing rail capacity by 2014. is no valid motor insurance, to be enforced from the record by a procedure of Continuous Insurance Heathrow Airport Enforcement. We intend to bring in further regulations to bring these provisions into force. It is planned to 13. Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, commence the Continuous Insurance Enforcement scheme Department for Transport what recent discussions the in 2010-11 starting with an initial publicity campaign to Secretary of State has had on the implications for air raise public awareness. 1077W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1078W

Concessionary Travel: Jobseekers Ports: Non-domestic Rates

17. Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Minister of Mr. Crabb: To ask the Minister of State, Department State, Department for Transport what recent for Transport what recent discussions the Secretary of discussions the Secretary of State has had with the State has had with the Secretary of State for Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the Communities and Local Government on the effect on provision of concessionary travel for jobseekers businesses in and around ports of changes to port attending interviews. [282115] rating. [282111]

Mr. Khan: There have not been specific discussions Paul Clark: Following representations received on on this issue with the Secretary of State for Work and behalf of businesses in ports, my predecessor, the hon. Pensions. Jobcentre plus already offers a number of Member for Poplar and Canning Town (Jim Fitzpatrick), schemes to help jobseekers with the cost of travel, held discussions earlier this year with the Minister for including their Travel to Interview Scheme and help Local Government, and with representatives of the with train fares for those on the New Deal programme. ports. Department for Transport officials have discussed the matter with Department for Communities and Local NHS Facilities: Transport Requirements Government officials.

18. Mr. Bone: To ask the Minister of State, Railways: Franchises Department for Transport whether his Department has issued any recent guidance on transport requirements in relation to new NHS facilities. [282116] Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport which train operator Mr. Khan: This summer we plan to publish Local franchises include revenue support clauses. [279632] Transport Plan guidance, which will encourage good integration between local transport authorities and NHS Chris Mole: A revenue share/support mechanism means agencies. Relevant guidance has also been published by that where a train operating company generates revenue a local government led group on “Providing Transport in excess of those agreed in their winning bid, the in Partnership—a guide for health agencies and local Government are entitled to a share, and similarly where authorities”. revenue is lower, the Government supports the train operating company. The following train operating London City Airport companies have a revenue share/support mechanism in their franchise agreement: 19. James Brokenshire: To ask the Minister of State, Arriva Cross Country (AXC) Department for Transport what recent discussions the East Midland Trains (EMT) Secretary of State has had with the National Air First Capital Connect FCC) Traffic Service on the effect on congestion of the recent First Great Western (FGW) increase in traffic capacity at London City airport. London Midland (LOM) [282117] London South Eastern Railway Paul Clark: None. The air traffic management aspects National Express East Anglia (NXEA) of implementing the increase in the number of annual National Express East Coast (NXEC) flights at London City Airport approved last October Northern Rail by the London borough of Newham are an operational Stagecoach South Western (SSW) matter for NATS, regulated by the Civil Aviation Authority. Virgin West Coast (VWC). Departmental Internet The recently let South Central, to begin in September of this year, has a revenue share/support mechanism. Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Arriva Train Wales is part funded by the Department Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of 3 for Transport but is managed by the Welsh Assembly. February 2009, Official Report, column 1124W, on departmental internet, how many (a) unique visitors Railways: Greater London and (b) page impressions were received by each website operated by his Department in each of the last 12 Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, months. [280719] Department for Transport when he expects to publish the Fares Direction for London; and whether the Chris Mole: Tables have been placed in the Libraries Direction will specify a date by which the use of Oyster of the House showing websites currently maintained by Pay As You Go is to be accepted on the national rail the Department for Transport and the unique visitors network in the London area. [282268] and page impressions received by each website in each of the last 12 months. Chris Mole: The Department for Transport, Transport Data is unavailable in some instances, either for technical for London and train operators are working together reasons or because the website was not live at the time. on the acceptance of Oyster Pay as You Go at London Since April 2009 the Department has been measuring train stations and the acceptance of ITSO Smartcards website usage in line with the guidance issued by the on Oyster equipment. Subject to a successful conclusion Central Office of Information, ‘Measuring website usage to the current discussions, which will include the issue (TG116)’. of Fares Directions to the operators, we anticipate that 1079W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1080W

Oyster will be accepted throughout the London network Scale of penalty applied towards the end of the current year, or very early in 2010. SPS scheme year 5 per cent. and less 20 per cent. or more 2007 9,062 1,508 Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, 2008115,173 1672 Department for Transport what discussions the 1 These numbers may increase when all payments for the 2008 scheme year have Secretary of State has had with the Mayor of London been made. on (a) responsibility for the rail network in London Unfortunately the data required to provide payment and (b) re-zoning in London; and if he will make a information for Essex and Castle Point constituency is statement. [282269] not held in a form that is easily accessible. The information requested could be obtained only at disproportionate Chris Mole: As part of regular meetings and cost. correspondence between the Mayor and the Secretary of State for Transport, topics related to franchising Agriculture: Test Valley such as the responsibility for the rail network in London, along with re-zoning have been discussed. Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Railways: Repairs and Maintenance Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much funding his Department allocated for the development Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, of environmentally-sustainable farming in the Test Department for Transport what assessment he has Valley borough in each of the last five years. [281374] made of the effectiveness of the deferral by Network Rail of track renewals as a means to meet efficiency Jim Fitzpatrick: Resources for agri-environment targets imposed by the Office of Rail Regulation; and if agreements are allocated nationally by Natural England, he will make a statement. [282267] rather than to individual boroughs. Over the past five calendar years, the following sums have been paid in Chris Mole: Track renewal is an operational matter agri-environment agreements on farms that include land for Network Rail as it aims to deliver the output and within the Test Valley borough. efficiency targets agreed with the Independent Office of Rail Regulation over the next five years. £ Countryside Environmentally Network Rail will be investing almost £4 billion on Calendar stewardship sensitive Environmental Total for an intensive track renewals programme over Control year scheme area stewardship year Period 4. The Office of Rail Regulation is satisfied that this funding provides for works that are sufficient to 2005 1,025,752 185,832 0 1,211,584 maintain safety and the quality of the rail network. 2006 1,202,756 180,725 272,375 1,655,856 2007 1,091,348 177,768 1,144,338 2,413,454 We understand that total outputs will remain as 2008 1,078,669 120,597 1,600,218 2,799,484 previously planned, although phasing adjustments in 2009 (to 18 29,898 14,530 944,282 988,710 the early part of the five year period will result in a June) lower volume of track renewals in the first year to allow time for new and more efficient working methods to The Test and Itchen Valleys are one of Natural take effect. England’s 110 Higher Level Stewardship (HLS) Target Areas, designed to maximise environmental benefits and value for money from HLS agreements, published and promoted from November 2008. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Source: Agriculture: Subsidies The above information was provided by Natural England.

Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many direct Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much payments to farmers under the Common Agricultural funding his Department allocated for the support of Policy Single Payment Scheme have been reduced by farmers in the Test Valley borough in each of the last (a) five per cent. and less and (b) 20 per cent. or more five years. [281375] in (i) England, (ii) Essex and (iii) Castle Point constituency in each of the last five years. [278675] Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA does not record information on payments to farmers on a borough basis. The Jim Fitzpatrick: The number of payments to Single information requested could be obtained only at Payment Scheme claimants in England that have been disproportionate cost. reduced by (a) 5 per cent. and less and (b) 20 per cent. or more as a result of the application of penalties Agriculture: Waste Disposal during each scheme year since the scheme’s introduction is provided in the following table. Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Scale of penalty applied Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much the Government have spent on research into (a) SPS scheme year 5 per cent. and less 20 per cent. or more bioreducer methods, (b) anaerobic digestion, (c) 2005 9,597 3,060 biodigestion and (d) other methods for farmers to 2006 8,406 1,487 dispose of fallen stock in the last three years. [281984] 1081W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1082W

Jim Fitzpatrick: The Government have spent £213,590 Jim Fitzpatrick: Eligible dairy farmers receive support on research into anaerobic digestion, £248,415 on research under a range of Common Agriculture Policy measures, into biodigestion and £757,000 on research into other including the Single Payment Scheme (SPS). The continued methods for disposal of contaminated animals in the progress of the Rural Payments Agency in making last three years. DEFRA has not funded any specific more timely SPS payments has helped farmers’ cash research into bioreducer methods; however, the Welsh flow with around £1.6 billion (98 per cent.) paid to date Assembly Government is currently funding research in under the 2008 scheme. this area. The Regional Development Agencies deliver a £300 million programme of investment in improving Central Science Laboratory: Consultants the competitiveness of farming and forestry under the 2007-13 Rural Development Programme for England, Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for of which at least £107 million is being targeted at the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much the livestock sector to help it meet the particular challenges Central Science Laboratory spent on consultants in that it faces. each of the last five years. [280340] Departmental Correspondence Dan Norris: The information requested is in the following table. Alistair Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what percentage Financial year £ of letters to his Department from hon. Members’ 2008-09 385,617.65 Parliamentary offices were answered within 30 days of 2007-08 309,425.88 the date of receipt in each quarter from January 2008 2006-07 365,955.89 to March 2009. [280464] 2005-06 212,625.57 Dan Norris: The Cabinet Office, on an annual basis, 2004-05 250,115.72 publishes a report to Parliament on the performance of The largest spends for CSL cover specific consultancy Departments in replying to Members’ correspondence. costs which relate to: The report for 2008 was published on 2 April 2009, systems implementations Official Report, columns 80-86WS. commercial advice re spinout company Departmental Public Consultation science accreditation facilities management Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for customer satisfaction independent surveys Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many operational process reviews public consultations have been conducted by his There were particular charges (e.g. IT, branding) Department since 27 June 2007; what the title of each incurred during the last year in relation to the establishment has been; how many responses were received at each; of the Food and Environment Research Agency (Fera). and what estimate has been made of the total cost Excluding these, the underlying CSL consultancy spend incurred for each consultation. [280908] was £137,000. Dan Norris: In line with the code of practice on Dairy Farming: Government Assistance consultations, DEFRA publishes all its consultation documents on its website at: Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/default.asp Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions However, the 152 consultations DEFRA has conducted he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on since 27 June 2007 to date are listed in the following assistance to farmers who lost money owing to the table. The number of responses received for individual failure of Dairy Farmers of Great Britain. [281923] consultation is recorded in the Government response documents. All response documents that are produced Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 23 June 2009]: DEFRA are published on the departmental website alongside Ministers hold regular discussions with HMT Ministers the consultations themselves. Information on the total on a range of topics. cost incurred for each consultation is not available and There are publicly-funded schemes available through could be obtained only at disproportional cost. Business Link to assist small businesses (such as farms) Table: Consultations from 27 June 2007 to date when they become affected by the economic downturn, Start date End date Consultation title or when they find their ability to get credit is affected in situations such as this. There is also the HMRC Business 28 June 21 September Consultation on the interpretation of the 2009 definition of municipal waste used in the Payment Support Service, which may enable affected landfill allowance trading scheme farmers to defer certain tax and national insurance 3 July 28 September Consultation on implementation of part 1 payments. of the Commons Act 2006 11 July 1 October Wildlife health strategy Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for 18 July 10 October Consultation on the fourth environmental Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what financial permitting programme support his Department has given to dairy farmers in 18 July 10 October Consultation on Salmonella in laying flocks 19 July 11 October Consultation on DEFRA’S contingency each of the last 12 months; and if he will make a plan for exotic animal diseases statement. [281983] 1083W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1084W

Table: Consultations from 27 June 2007 to date Table: Consultations from 27 June 2007 to date Start date End date Consultation title Start date End date Consultation title

25 July 19 October Consultation on the implementation 31 25 March 2008 Consultation on Scotch Whisky regulations options for the transfer of private sewers to December water and sewerage companies 9 January 17 January and Consultation on proposal of two per cent. 27 July 19 October Consultation on the soil framework 2008 29 February milk quotas directive 2008—2 dates 1 August 24 October Consultation on the implementation of the 14 January 31 March 2008 Consultation on national listing and plant European pollutant release and transfer breeders’ right fees register, and the establishment of a UK pollutant release and transfer register 7 February 30 April 2008 Consultation on surface water management 3 August 26 0ctober Consultation on energy services directive 7 February 30 April 2008 Consultation on guidance to Ofwat 13 August 2 November Consultation on “Recycle on the GO” 7 February 30 April 2008 Consultation on phosphates in detergents- laundry 15 August 07 November Consultation on UK report regarding plans and programmes to meet EU air quality 17 January 8 April Consultation on mining waste Directive limit values (reporting year 2005) (CLG led) 17 August 09 November Consultation on Commission Proposal to 21 January 14 April Consultation on sustainable products recast Directive 92/34 on the marketing of (market transformation programme website) fruit plant propagating material and plants 4 February 6 May 2008 Consultation on charging for CITES 21 August 13 November Consultation on Catchment Sensitive licences farming/nitrates and diffuse water 30 January 29 April 2008 Consultation on the future of the aggregates pollution—three consultations to be 2008 levy sustainability fund April 2008 to March launched 2011 7 7 December Consultation on statutory measures to 25 19 May 2008 Consultation on river basin planning September protect areas of Lyme Bay February (volume) 10 05-November Consultation on a draft second edition of 27 19 May 2008 Consultation on the transposition of September IPPC SG6 for A2 activities in the solvents February Council Directive 2006/117/Euratom sector 2008 19 12-December Consultation on a licensing scheme for the 29 23 May 2008 Consultation on implementation of fruit September sale and purchase of non-compliant paints February and vegetable reforms for use on historic buildings and vintage 2008 vehicles 29 27 May 2008 Consultation on Environmental Liability 5 October 4 January 2008 Consultation on LA environmental February Directive: 2nd consultation regulation of industrial plant: 2008-09 fees 2008 and charges 7 March 4 April Consultation on European Fisheries Fund: 8 October 30 November Consultation on packaging targets 2008 UK Operational programme (1st phase) 10 October 3 January 2008 Consultation on Home Energy 7 March 18 April Consultation on Fal and Helford Conservation Act 1995 2008 7 20 November Consultation on double tagging of sheep November 2007 and goat March 30 May Consultation on statutory notification 2008 requirements for potatoes introduced into 8 31 January 2008 Consultations on amendment to schedule 9 England and Wales from other EU Member November of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, States and Orders to ban the sale of certain non- native species 17 March 9 June Consultation on joint waste authorities 2008 12 4 February Consultation on the implementation of the November 2008 revised Bathing Water Directive 18 March 29 April Consultation on producer responsibility 2008 obligations (Packaging Waste) Regulations 12 October 18 December Consultation on amendments to mutilations 2007; Directive 2004/12/EC (amending 2007 regulations (England) 2007 Directive 94/62/EC on packaging and 12 October 15 February Consultation on a system of administrative packaging waste). 2008 penalties for fisheries offences 20 March 25 April Consultation on the remaking of the 13 October 5 February Consultation on possible changes of use of drinking milk reg’s 2008 personal data held on the GB poultry 31 March 23 June Consultation on soil strategy for England register 3 April 26 June Consultation on TSE Regulations 2007 16 October 22 February Consultation on third sector 2008 3 April 26 June Consultation draft Marine Bill November 14 January 2008 Consultation on the merger of PSD into 8 April 29 August Consultation on the strategy of health of 2007 HSE honey bees December 7 March 2008 Consultation on recreational sea angling 2 May 27 June Consultation on European Fisheries Fund: 2007 UK Operational programme (2nd phase) 11 15 April 2008 Consultation on cost sharing and 7 May 30 July Consultation on the EU Commission’s December responsibility sharing proposals to amend the EU ETS from 2013 13 6 March 2008 Consultation on energy services directive 9 May 23 May Consultation on the remaking of Eggs and December article 5 Chicks (England) Regulations 2008 19 7 March 2008 Consultation on Aquatic Animal Health 14 May 6 August Consultation on draft AQEG report: Ozone December Directive transposition in the United Kingdom 19 19 March 2008 Consultation on climate change 14 May 6 August Consultation on EPAQS report: guidelines December simplification plan for metals and metalloids in ambient air for 20 13 March 2008 Consultation on batteries—on not being the protection of human health December hosted on DEFRA website-BERR website 14 May 6 August Consultation on EPAQS report: Addendum 21 14 March 2008 Consultation on auction design for Phase II to Guidelines for halogen and hydrogen December of the EU Emissions Trading Scheme halides in ambient air for protecting human health against acute irritancy effects 31 25 March 2008 Consultation on spirits regulations December 28 May 20 August Consultation on Groundwater Regulations 1085W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1086W

Table: Consultations from 27 June 2007 to date Table: Consultations from 27 June 2007 to date Start date End date Consultation title Start date End date Consultation title

29 May 25 July Consultation on the European 15 14 November Consultation on Recycling Service guidance Commission’s proposed Directive on September Industrial Emissions (Integrated Pollution 23 15 December Consultation on NCP Broiler flocks reg’s Prevention and Control) (Recast)— September Intensive livestock 26 19 December Consultation on LA Environmental 29 May 25 July Consultation on the European September regulation of Industrial plant 2009-10 fees Commission’s proposed Directive on and charges Industrial Emissions (Integrated Pollution 30 23 December Consultation on the Conservation Varieties Prevention and Control) (Recast) September 29 May 25 July Consultation on the European 16 October 19 December Consultation on direction to the EA on Commission’s proposed Directive on classification of Water bodies Industrial Emissions (Integrated Pollution Prevention and Control)(Recast)— October 3 December Consultation on proposed changes to BSE Combustion Plants 2008 Testing 2 June 25 August Consultation on REACH Enforcement 4 31 December Consultation on Code of practice on Cat, November Dog and Equine 2 June 22 August Consultation on Dangerous wild animals Act 1976-reform order 4 6 February Consultation on revision of our swine November vesicular disease legislation 6 June 31 July Consultation on the European 2008 Commission’s proposed Directive on Industrial Emissions (Integrated Pollution 7 30 January Consultation on the code of practice for Prevention and Control)(Recast)-emissions November animal feeds 10 2 February Consultation on the equine ID 9 June 1 September Consultation on CAP Health checks November 13 June 25 July Consultation on Wine SI 2008 13 6 February Consultation on Animal By products 16 June 11 August Consultation on Sector Guidance Note November regulations SG8: Rendering 2008 13 June 17 September A second consultation on the controls on 13 6 February Consultation on Hazardous waste the handling, transfer and transport of November regulations waste 2008 12 June Consultation on White paper- Radioactive 14 6 February Consultation on the Better Regulation waste November review and six year review 18 June 30 September Consultation on revised UK Strategy for 18 10 February Consultation on School Milk Radioactive waste discharge limits 2006- November 2030 27 19 February Consultation on Marine Works 23 June 17 October Consultation on Revised Membership November (amendment to regulations) Arrangements for Northumberland 17 20 March Consultation on the Rules of court for the National Park Authority December water and sewerage special administration June 2008 22 September Consultation on Wildlife Management regime strategy 17 27 March Consultation on National Flood Emergency 30 June 30 September Consultation on Our Seas-a shared resource December framework 1 July 17 October Consultation on The Beef and Veal 22 31 March 2009 Consultation on Water Protection Zones Labelling Regulations 2008 (England) December 4 July 26 September Consultation on Air Quality guidance 22 22 March Consultation on Batteries Directive-draft December regulations-to be published on BERR 11 July 3 October Consultation on f gases and ozone website 15 July 10 October Consultation on Phytopthora Ramorem 6 January 31 March Consultation on handling LA’s powers to and Phytophthora kernoviae regulate paint supplies 21 July 10 October Consultation on DEFRA’s Contingency 16 January 10 April Consultation on regulations to allow the Plan free passage of fish in inland waters 21 July 20 October Consultation on Gangmasters Licensing 20 January 27 March Consultation on allocating increased milk (Exclusions) regulations quota 25 July 17 October Consultation on changes to the Local 26 January 20 April Consultation to protect the welfare of Government Act 1972 to allow local chicken meat authorities in England to work together on 27 January 20 April Consultation on Air Quality directive animal health extension 28 July 20 October Consultation on a Code of Practice for the 27 January 20 April Consultation on the Welfare of Animals at sustainable use of soils on construction sites killing 28 July 28 November Consultation on Direct Elections to 16 11 May Consultation on proposed amendments to National Park Authorities February environmental noise (England) regulations 30 July 31 October Consultation on flood resilience 2006 30 July 31 October Consultation on flooding, coastal erosion 16 11 May Consultation on Environmental Permitting management February Programme 2 31 July 23 October Consultation on review of Waste 27 24 April Consultation on the revised EU marketing 2008 exemptions February standards for fruit and veg 3 March 26 May Consultation on transposing INSPIRE 5 August 28 October Consultation on plans to meet EU air Directive 2008 quality limit values 4 March 27 May Consultation on Changes to the Cross 8 August 3 October Consultation on the English inshore fleet- Compliance Good Agricultural and 2008 looking to the future Environmental Condition Standards in 11 August 3 November Consultation on private water supplies England - 4 4 28 November Consultation on Aviation action plans 13 March 24 April Consultation on eggs and chicks regulations September 2009 5 28 November Consultation on VMD 26 March 19 June Consultation on seeds certification fees September 27 March 19 June Consultation on the control of potato cyst 8 28 November Consultation on common land councils nematodes September 27 March 19 June Consultation on Animal Act 1971- LRO 1087W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1088W

Table: Consultations from 27 June 2007 to date Floods: Peterborough Start date End date Consultation title

30 March 30 June Consultation on Responsibility and Cost Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Sharing for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent 31 March 23 June Consultation on EID estimate he has made of the number and proportion of 31 March 20 April Consultation on Statutory Instrument for a buildings in Peterborough which (a) are not flood- Code of Conduct for Areas of Outstanding [281664] Natural Beauty (AONBs) Conservation resistant and (b) are flood resilient. Boards 20 April 13 July Consultation on MPA Strategy Huw Irranca-Davies: DEFRA has made no estimate 21 April 24 July Consultation on draft floods and water Bill of the number of properties in Peterborough that are, 27 April 20 July Consultation on veterinary entry checks on or are not flood resistant or resilient. rabies-susceptible animals We are considering how a realistic national estimate 29 April 22 July Consultation on water abstractions regulations can be effectively and economically achieved using 29 April 22 July Consultation on implementation of the information sourced locally. The route for providing the CAP health checks reforms relating to the appropriate information for such an estimate will be SPS and other direct payments clearer after the passage of the Flood and Water 30 April 22 July Consultation on Greyhound regulations Management Bill through Parliament. 30 April 31 July Consultation on the Revised Waste Duty of Care Code of Practice Forests 5 May 24 June Consultation on Commission Proposal for a new Control Regulation Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for 6 May 29 July Consultation on EPP2 guidance Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion 12 May 4 August Consultation on Time limiting water abstractions of land in England is (a) woodland and (b) covered by 22 May 17 August Consultation on Koi Herpes Virus Disease peat. [281980] Status (KHV) 5 June 3 August Consultation on minor amendments to the Huw Irranca-Davies: The provisional figure published Habitats regulations in June this year for woodland is 1.128 million hectares 5 June 7 August Consultation on draft guidance how to or 9 per cent. of England’s land area. measure and report your greenhouse gases 11 June 4 September Consultation on EUP Labelling market It is estimated that 3-4 per cent. of England’s land surveillance and enforcement area is covered by peat soils. This figure refers to substantial 15 June 25 September Consultation on coastal erosion peat deposits of at least 40cm in depth. This estimate 18 June 9 September Consultation on reporting power in the excludes small pockets of peat in areas that are mapped 2009 Climate Change Act as part of other soil types. Livestock Floods: Cabinet Committees Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will make it assessment is of the cost to farmers of livestock his policy that the Cabinet Committee on Flooding rustling in (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009 to date; should meet at least three times a year. [276904] and if he will make a statement. [281894]

Huw Irranca-Davies: I refer the hon. Member to the Jim Fitzpatrick: Comprehensive figures on livestock answer my hon. Friend the then Parliamentary Secretary rustling are not held centrally therefore we have made for the Cabinet Office (Tom Watson) gave to her on no assessment of the cost incurred to farmers. Such 23 March 2009, Official Report, columns 50-51W. offences would come under Home Office classification 49 ’Other theft or unauthorised taking’ and cannot be This answer stated that it is established practice that separately identified from other offences recorded under information relating to the proceedings of Cabinet that classification. Committees, including exactly when and how often they are to meet, is not disclosed. However, the Cattle Tracing System shows the following numbers of cattle have been reported to British Cattle Movement Service (BCMS) as stolen: Floods: Canvey Island Number

Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 7,175 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent 2008 5,553 estimate he has made of the number and proportion of 2009 4,047 buildings on Canvey Island which (a) are not Source: Figures provided by the BCMS. flood-resistant and (b) are flood resilient. [281325] Marine and Coastal Access Bill Huw Irranca-Davies: No estimate has been made of the number of properties on Canvey Island that are Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for flood resistant or resilient. However, the Environment Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what forecast he Agency spent over £4 million in 2006 to improve the has made of the annual cost to the public purse of the drainage of the island and address fluvial flooding inshore fisheries and conservation authorities proposed issues. under the Marine and Coastal Access Bill. [281498] 1089W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1090W

Huw Irranca-Davies: Over 2009-11, one-off costs related Greenhouse Gas workbook) that designation will increase to implementation of the reform package will be made carbon dioxide equivalents by 380 kilotonnes during available. This will be in the region of £1.6 million based construction and 125 kilotonnes per year through on current estimates. In addition, the establishment of operations. Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authorities (IFCAs) Severn Trent Water estimates an increase of between will result in an estimated additional financial burden 100 and 150 kilotonnes of carbon dioxide per year, a 20 on constituent local authorities of approximately £5 million to 30 per cent. increase on current emissions. Additional per year. This will include expenditure on: emissions from Anglian Water will be much smaller. (i) effective management of estuarine and coastal areas that have previously been subject to low intervention; Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for (ii) enhanced byelaw making procedures, including improved Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he evidence-based decision making and consultation on impact has made of the costs which would be incurred if the assessments; River Humber were to be designated as a sensitive area (iii) increased monitoring, inspection and enforcement (including under the EU Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive; more enforcement officers); and and if he will make a statement. [280780] (iv) improved staff training and development. A consultation setting out options for establishing Huw Irranca-Davies: If the UK was required to designate future IFC district boundaries and the local authorities the Humber as sensitive to eutrophication, industry has that will fall within the districts closed on 22 April and estimated the capital cost of additional treatment to be the Government intend to publish its response this approximately £900 million, with operating costs of summer. The outcome of the consultation will help approximately £50 million a year. inform what changes need to be made and their associated costs. Officials will work closely with Sea Fisheries Rural Payments Agency: Complaints Committees and local authorities to quantify the changes necessary. Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Members: Correspondence Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many complaints in relation to the processing of claims by Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for the Rural Payments Agency his Department has Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he plans to received in (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009 . [282037] respond to the letters from the hon. Member for Billericay of 6 April and 7 May 2009 regarding his Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 24 June 2009]: The constituent Fran Smith. [282181] following table sets out how many complaints in respect of the single payment scheme have been dealt with by Dan Norris: The hon. Member for Billericay’s letters the Rural Payments Agency for the last three years. of 6 April and 7 May regarding his constituent Fran Smith were replied to by my right hon. Friend the Financial year Number Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Jane Kennedy) on 2006-07 2,569 10 May. 2007-08 1,149 Ministers: Working Hours 2008-09 942 Note: 1. Financial years cover the period 1 April to 31 March. Mr. Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for 2. The figures for 2008-09 are subject to confirmation in the annual Exchequer Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many hours audit. he spent on his ministerial duties in the seven-day Sheep period beginning Sunday 7 June 2009. [282180]

Dan Norris: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for State (Hilary Benn) had a full diary of official duties. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2009, Official Report, column 96W, River Humber on sheep, what estimate has been made of the number of sheep in each county in England in each year since Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for 1997. [281992] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he has made of the likely effect on levels of greenhouse Jim Fitzpatrick: The total number of sheep and gas emissions of the designation of the River Humber lambs in England by county/unitary authority in each as a sensitive area under the EU urban waste water year since 1997 are shown in the following tables. treatment directive; and if he will make a statement. Figures for 1999 onwards can also be found on the [280779] DEFRA website at: www.defra.gov.uk/esg/work_htm/publications/cs/ Huw Irranca-Davies: Yorkshire Water estimates (based farmstats_web/2_SURVEY_DATA_SEARCH/ on United Kingdom Water Industry Research Limited, COMPLETE_DATASETS/regional_level_datasets.htm

Table 1: Total sheep and lambs by county/unitary authority, 1997 to 2002 County/UA 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002

Hartlepool and Stockton-on-Tees 23,436 24,468 24,015 21,907 18,619 16,481 1091W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1092W

Table 1: Total sheep and lambs by county/unitary authority, 1997 to 2002 County/UA 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002

South Teesside 27,715 30,228 30,708 29,314 27,861 23,118 Darlington 30,449 30,252 31,797 29,944 20,226 18,075 Durham CC 678,435 685,483 689,716 650,712 500,085 522,161 Northumberland 1,664,446 1,680,887 1,719,011 1,642,218 1,395,748 1,343,874 Tyneside 10,023 10,862 10,750 1— 1— 1— Sunderland 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— West Cumbria 716,598 746,378 733,959 705,904 368,594 488,592 East Cumbria 1,975,625 2,061,168 2,041,301 1,928,069 1,130,470 1,313,197 Halton and Warrington 3,624 3,488 4,152 4,669 4,457 4,040 Cheshire CC 205,653 214,103 215,542 203,685 194,710 177,920 Greater Manchester South 16,813 16,822 16,442 20,349 19,772 17,178 Greater Manchester North 56,745 53,704 57,903 51,454 54,129 49,010 Blackburn With Darwen 20,036 21,173 21,229 21,230 17,342 16,925 Blackpool 1— 1—01— 1— 1— Lancashire CC 788,668 823,332 800,283 776,586 703,264 656,886 East Merseyside 6,399 6,923 7,430 6,061 6,452 6,336 Liverpool 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— Sefton 334 659 417 1— 1— 249 Wirral 1,504 1,442 1,639 1,528 1,506 1— Kingston upon Hull, City of 1— 1— 1— 1—1— 1— East Riding of Yorkshire 121,399 115,301 114,603 110,654 105,164 91,389 North and North East Lincolnshire 12,614 12,990 14,269 12,591 13,085 11,873 York 13,836 14,467 14,721 1— 1— 1— North Yorkshire CC 2,082,611 2,145,678 2,160,335 2,077,156 1,793,702 1,675,339 Barnsley, Doncaster and Rotherham 50,370 51,263 55,386 52,214 47,882 41,496 Sheffield 36,273 39,669 30,172 31,464 35,243 35,210 Bradford 74,334 80,623 75,983 76,204 73,352 70,360 Leeds 51,544 51,709 50,187 46,567 44,880 38,615 Calderdale, Kirklees and Wakefield 111,848 117,944 117,051 109,134 105,569 107,925 Derby 1— 1— 1— 28,563 1— 1— East Derbyshire 27,584 29,113 30,056 1— 25,663 21,540 South and West Derbyshire 429,662 459,537 459,847 438,425 420,812 377,670 Nottingham 0 0 0 1— 1— 1— North Nottinghamshire 53,816 49,482 57,508 58,313 49,441 46,320 South Nottinghamshire 32,238 32,401 28,265 27,575 1— 1— Leicester 0 0 0 0 1— 1— Leicestershire CC and Rutland 411,401 427,810 434,168 390,411 374,035 340,160 Northamptonshire 398,006 411,666 418,480 406,457 387,762 329,594 Lincolnshire 218,252 225,666 233,901 206,494 191,988 169,317 Herefordshire, County of 807,253 845,061 851,417 799,820 664,610 644,216 Worcestershire 378,186 393,374 395,697 377,145 336,362 309,974 Warwickshire 328,798 355,204 361,938 358,192 339,797 301,609 Telford and Wrekin 9,705 10,848 10,773 11,273 11,492 9,970 Shropshire CC 923,438 958,173 979,024 909,128 836,216 762,901 Stoke-on-Trent 502 685 883 1— 1— 1— Staffordshire CC 297,542 308,388 322,042 305,150 276,732 259,300 Birmingham 1,025 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— Solihull 16,627 17,438 17,215 17,760 11,314 13,726 Coventry 1,813 2,925 2,816 2,589 2,552 2,422 Dudley and Sandwell 1,168 1,208 1,277 1,147 855 793 Walsall and Wolverhampton 1,031 1,092 1,243 683 542 553 Peterborough 9,445 12,265 11,141 49,135 10,548 8,728 Cambridgeshire CC 43,557 42,455 44,401 11,129 47,262 34,548 Norfolk 145,746 144,935 149,276 144,307 136,367 106,114 Suffolk 68,421 76,199 74,317 82,795 72,985 77,229 Luton 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— Bedfordshire CC 58,147 58,034 61,168 56,409 53,482 45,018 Hertfordshire 43,606 44,219 42,750 38,143 40,739 32,687 Southend-on-Sea 0 00000 Thurrock 2,749 2,811 2,870 1— 1— 1— Essex CC 74,066 67,556 70,067 66,014 59,455 56,122 Inner London: West 0 0 0 0 65,970 1— Inner London: East 1— 1— 1— 1— 21,281 45 Outer London: East and North East 1,696 1,519 1,683 1— 204,408 1— 1093W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1094W

Table 1: Total sheep and lambs by county/unitary authority, 1997 to 2002 County/UA 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002

Outer London: South 387 577 907 649 194,395 746 Outer London: West and North West 888 1,926 1,939 1,699 1— 848 Berkshire 60,837 71,968 75,616 70,196 291,072 58,114 Milton Keynes 29,565 27,385 28,528 26,025 75,887 21,576 Buckinghamshire CC 186,506 199,017 220,705 208,804 114,130 180,258 Oxfordshire 208,953 218,569 219,270 211,197 1— 172,395 Brighton and Hove 1— 1— 1— 1— 151 3,554 East Sussex CC 279,868 289,435 302,772 299,664 145,891 271,572 Surrey 76,210 75,395 76,708 80,907 33,096 64,931 West Sussex 140,226 138,258 127,124 121,364 1— 102,861 Portsmouth 1— 1— 1— 1— 451,145 1— Southampton 1— 149 162 1— 1— 1— Hampshire CC 161,303 160,422 156,850 154,421 1— 129,661 Isle of Wight 36,568 38,784 38,715 35,083 1— 30,738 Medway 8,416 7,737 7,920 7,949 854 9,594 Kent CC 514,911 511,487 508,048 491,865 1,230 383,725 Bristol, City of 416 427 419 1— 1,232 1— N and NE Somerset, South Glos 100,105 102,743 98,295 98,595 95,202 84,217 Gloucestershire 403,875 414,686 425,662 418,837 334,173 329,925 Swindon 16,683 15,814 13,121 13,360 11,699 6,960 Wiltshire CC 203,393 194,027 203,037 199,164 193,195 171,851 Bournemouth and Poole 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— Dorset CC 209,155 221,225 226,936 219,057 200,171 176,598 Somerset 572,797 590,196 605,745 583,969 551,959 490,772 Cornwall and Isles of Scilly 601,534 631,841 639,631 607,512 575,228 521,136 Plymouth 3,802 2,891 2,721 2,657 1— 1— Torbay 4,287 2,794 2,944 3,945 2,151 1— Devon CC 1,828,808 1,921,261 1,937,405 1,817,687 1,472,395 1,445,962

Table 2: Total sheep and lambs by county/unitary authority, 2003-08 County/UA 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Hartlepool and Stockton-on-Tees 17,181 17,079 16,266 14,772 16,019 15,136 South Teesside 23,412 19,538 20,828 18,577 21,348 20,404 Darlington 18,415 18,375 16,794 15,315 15,892 16,118 Durham CC 543,114 561,614 562,817 544,838 544,976 542,014 Northumberland 1,350,851 1,356,865 1,351,097 1,336,393 1,328,927 1,340,250 Tyneside 1— 7,686 1— 1— 7,599 8,298 Sunderland 1— 1— 1— 1— 370 223 West Cumbria 513,535 546,115 538,031 544,865 533,002 538,986 East Cumbria 1,437,605 1,480,984 1,511,508 1,495,375 1,474,746 1,490,758 Halton and Warrington 4,100 4,026 4,506 3,868 3,063 2,690 Cheshire CC 184,408 188,539 188,569 186,184 186,467 198,302 Greater Manchester South 18,401 19,661 17,467 17,261 16,581 18,550 Greater Manchester North 49,784 52,712 50,789 52,801 45,342 48,021 Blackburn With Darwen 18,003 18,432 15,644 16,437 16,657 17,283 Blackpool 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— Lancashire CC 659,433 679,395 703,846 694,142 685,783 686,631 East Merseyside 6,481 6,296 6,738 6,937 7,130 7,070 Liverpool 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— Sefton 1— 287 297 1— 1— 1— Wirral 740 775 867 880 852 1,303 Kingston upon Hull, City of 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— East Riding of Yorkshire 85,921 83,908 85,716 92,890 87,934 87,745 North and North East Lincolnshire 11,608 11,306 10,790 10,685 10,904 11,275 Yo rk 1— 9,512 1— 1— 11,970 1— North Yorkshire CC 1,746,518 1,792,219 1,817,514 1,772,569 1,761,878 1,776,955 Barnsley, Doncaster and Rotherham 43,752 45,145 44,483 44,634 46,268 49,165 Sheffield 36,904 37,291 39,280 34,133 1— 34,854 Bradford 74,406 77,306 73,955 71,685 71,225 73,623 Leeds 38,736 37,777 38,292 35,738 34,711 36,428 Calderdale, Kirklees and Wakefield 104,206 104,220 106,405 109,051 103,087 106,579 Derby 1— 146 162 1— 1— 1— East Derbyshire 19,741 19,912 20,816 19,192 19,082 19,572 South and West Derbyshire 377,371 389,246 397,190 392,489 386,963 384,459 1095W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1096W

Table 2: Total sheep and lambs by county/unitary authority, 2003-08 County/UA 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Nottingham 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— North Nottinghamshire 46,096 44,750 44,891 45,463 45,318 42,205 South Nottinghamshire 1— 27,683 28,043 31,879 29,149 32,151 Leicester 1— 1— 1—01— 1— Leicestershire CC and Rutland 344,400 336,798 330,010 314,214 309,641 304,652 Northamptonshire 331,450 317,372 304,738 295,531 289,253 285,314 Lincolnshire 162,186 159,071 152,800 155,469 155,447 151,186 Herefordshire, County of 654,222 655,951 657,876 665,515 636,598 624,204 Worcestershire 316,360 317,322 311,682 306,347 299,643 297,691 Warwickshire 289,604 290,043 288,812 274,989 277,491 282,537 Telford and Wrekin 10,365 10,762 11,286 10,891 9,499 11,030 Shropshire CC 776,561 778,932 795,591 770,107 762,860 761,313 Stoke-on-Trent 1— 455 1— 700 1— 811 Staffordshire CC 263,551 267,828 272,269 263,079 267,461 268,627 Birmingham 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— Solihull 13,488 12,584 13,108 15,339 13,171 12,800 Coventry 1,927 2,147 1,751 1,859 1,824 2,072 Dudley and Sandwell 823 834 878 786 820 840 Walsall and Wolverhampton 458 429 915 1— 205 1— Peterborough 6,918 7,299 7,464 6,034 5,645 5,419 Cambridgeshire CC 32,145 32,197 30,372 30,175 31,157 31,288 Norfolk 98,546 100,167 104,691 109,321 114,136 114,032 Suffolk 79,793 74,755 72,359 68,830 80,460 77,864 Luton 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— Bedfordshire CC 39,227 37,922 36,697 34,937 34,340 40,017 Hertfordshire 34,033 33,810 35,759 39,041 32,758 35,183 Southend-on-Sea 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— Thurrock 1,060 1,054 1— 1— 1— 1— Essex CC 54,796 56,358 57,143 53,541 55,104 54,863 Inner London: West 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— Inner London: East 1—531— 1— 93 128 Outer London: East and North East 1— 1,458 1— 1,473 1,428 1,487 Outer London: South 803 863 884 735 2,744 1,150 Outer London: West and North West 745 617 1— 1— 516 518 Berkshire 56,680 55,915 57,275 60,383 51,349 47,603 Milton Keynes 21,644 20,470 18,749 17,663 17,737 17,664 Buckinghamshire CC 177,777 173,111 170,289 160,366 161,477 166,250 Oxfordshire 164,954 165,511 160,022 157,833 159,525 163,917 Brighton and Hove 1— 2,503 3,458 1— 8,920 9,683 East Sussex CC 271,932 265,493 263,694 264,210 250,940 252,433 Surrey 66,098 67,010 63,769 63,259 63,200 62,781 West Sussex 102,798 99,265 97,649 101,187 100,904 103,303 Portsmouth 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— 1— Southampton 149 58 1— 1— 1— 1— Hampshire CC 128,871 130,219 125,318 120,259 123,763 129,413 Isle of Wight 35,042 34,479 37,269 35,677 33,442 36,855 Medway 9,626 9,413 8,649 4,760 7,541 8,533 Kent CC 388,783 383,489 376,158 371,318 362,698 360,954 Bristol, City of 740 726 814 734 872 891 N and NE Somerset, South Glos 81,667 80,452 79,380 81,308 77,263 84,286 Gloucestershire 335,715 337,669 330,676 341,515 331,053 322,714 Swindon 6,394 6,098 6,343 6,212 3,550 4,198 Wiltshire CC 175,860 178,264 175,734 166,258 164,536 174,961 Bournemouth and Poole 402 423 1,714 1,869 1,564 1,885 Dorset CC 187,750 186,889 185,437 193,455 191,232 198,080 Somerset 494,854 506,873 495,195 474,258 487,253 489,416 Cornwall and Isles of Scilly 525,057 527,466 519,812 521,033 501,658 503,374 Plymouth 759 813 697 1,235 640 734 Torbay 2,505 2,608 2,831 3,272 3,144 2,712 Devon CC 1,474,609 1,481,181 1,474,328 1,465,263 1,399,574 1,402,422 1 Suppressed to prevent disclosure of information about individual holdings. Source: June Agricultural Survey. 1097W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1098W

Waste Disposal: Private Finance Initiative Mr. Thomas: The UK’s strategy for helping poor countries respond to the impact of the recession includes Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for mobilising additional external resources, especially from Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his policy the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and other is on the use of private finance initiative funding for international financial institutions. An extra $50 billion waste disposal projects in circumstances where the of concessional resources for low-income countries was local authority has opted not to use incineration as a committed at the London summit in April. The IMF waste disposal method. [281780] has increased concessional funds to crisis affected countries, helping partner governments to maintain funding of Dan Norris: DEFRA’s policy is not prescriptive in social programmes. relation to the disposal technology procured by an The UK has committed £200 million to a new authority using private finance initiative (PFI) funding. vulnerability fund, managed by the World Bank, which DEFRA does however insist that a thorough appraisal will scale up social protection. Womenand other vulnerable of the options is performed and documented as part of groups are explicitly targeted in many Department for the Outline Business Case (OBC). The technology selected International Development programmes and we have for the OBC forms the basis of the OBC costings but stepped up our bilateral support for social protection. does not determine the choice of technology which is In 2007-08, DFID spent £45 million on social protection ultimately selected in the procurement stage. Hence PFI in Africa, an increase from £35 million in 2006-07. credit support is not tied to any type of technology and is available to projects both with and without combustion as part of their waste management solution. Burma: Armed Conflict Any new infrastructure proposals should not be at the expense of reduction, reuse and recycling of waste. Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment has been made of the number of people who have moved from Burma to Thailand as a result of the renewed military INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT action in the eastern part of that country; and whether Afghanistan: Children such people have access to humanitarian assistance. [281908] Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps his Department Mr. Michael Foster: Latest estimates from the government is taking to (a) identify viable alternatives to child of Thailand, the United Nations High Commissioner labour and (b) improve children’s working conditions for Refugees (UNHCR) and non-governmental in the mining industry in Afghanistan; and if he will organisations (NGOs) suggest that about 3,000 people make a statement. [281621] have recently entered Thailand to escape fighting in eastern Burma. Mr. Michael Foster: Viable alternatives to child labour Humanitarian assistance for the refugees is being in Afghanistan include raising family incomes and provided by the Thai authorities, UNHCR, the Thailand increasing the availability of primary and secondary Burma Border Consortium (TBBC) and other NGOs. education. The Department for International Development This assistance includes food, plastic sheeting for shelter, (DFID) is helping raise family incomes by spending blankets, bed-nets and medical care. The Thai authorities over £180 million on economic development over the are co-ordinating with UNHCR, TBBC and other NGOs next four years (nationally and in Helmand province). on a medium-term plan for caring for the new refugees. DFID’s support for schooling comprises a £225 million DFID plans to provide about £7.4 million over the contribution to the Afghanistan Reconstruction Trust next three years to support Burmese refugees in Thailand Fund (ARTF) over the next four years. and internally displaced people inside Burma. This Afghanistan has now signed the Convention on the funding includes £1.1 million for TBBC this financial Rights of the Child, which recognises the right of the year. child to be: ‘protected from economic exploitation and from performing Burma: Overseas Aid any work that is likely to be hazardous or to interfere with the child’s education, or to be harmful to the child’s health or physical, mental, spiritual, moral or social development.’ Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan’s responsibilities under this Convention International Development what steps his Department are monitored by the Afghanistan Independent Human has taken to provide famine relief in Chin state, Right Commission, support for which is provided by a Western Burma in the last 12 months; and if he will number of other donors. The Government of Afghanistan make a statement. [281989] has also recently launched a programme that will help identify unlicensed mining operations and enforce safer Mr. Michael Foster: In September 2008, the Department mining practices. for International Development (DFID) approved a grant of £600,000 for emergency aid for people in Chin State Africa: Females suffering from food shortages as a result of rat infestations. In March this year, we increased our funding to £880,000 Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for in response to further needs assessments. The aid is International Development what steps his Department delivered through the United Nations Development is taking to assist women and girls in Africa whose Programme, the World Food Programme and their local employment and education is jeopardised by the partners. About 65,000 people have now benefited from recession. [281620] it. We continue to keep the situation under close review. 1099W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1100W

We are also considering, in consultation with the United Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Nations and other donors, how best to address longer-term Development (DFID) does not hold a central record of food security needs in Chin State and other parts of expenditure on buying and renting cars. Compiling this Burma. information would incur disproportionate cost. Cambodia: Overseas Aid Development Aid Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment he has Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the effect of Government corruption on the International Development what assessment he has effectiveness of UK aid to Cambodia. [281689] made of the effect of UK overseas development aid on the level of Government corruption in natural resource Mr. Michael Foster: Government corruption does exporting countries which receive that aid; and if he not have a significant impact on the effectiveness of UK will make a statement. [281687] aid to Cambodia. When designing programmes the Department for International Development (DFID) Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International works closely with the Cambodian Government and Development (DFID) assesses the risk and impact of other development partners to mitigate against this risk corruption as part of its country planning process and monitor progress throughout implementation. We through Fiduciary Risk Assessments and the mandatory also provide support to a joint programme to reform Country Governance Analysis (CGA). Recent CGA’s the management of public finances, which continues to have shown positive trends on corruption in a number make good progress in improving the Cambodian of natural resource exporting countries where DFID Government’s financial systems. provides support. Only 8 per cent. of UK assistance to Cambodia was For example at the international level, the UK has led channelled directly through government systems in 2008. on the development of the Extractive Industries For this, we also designed additional safeguards to Transparency Initiative (EITI), which requires participating ensure UK aid was used effectively, including additional companies in the extractives sector to publish what they reporting by government on the use of funds. A recent pay and governments to publish what they receive in independent country programme evaluation concluded revenues. 28 countries are implementing the EITI and that DFID had made a “significant contribution” to 11 countries have so far produced one or more EITI development in Cambodia. reports. This represents important progress in the transparency and anti-corruption agendas in natural Departmental Drinking Water resource exporting countries. Further information on the EITI can be found on the DFID website: Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Global-Issues/Working-to-make- International Development how much his Department Global-Aid-more-effective/International-Aid-Transparency- has spent on bottled water in each of the last six Initiative/ months. [282316] Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Michael Foster: Since January 2008, the Department International Development what assessment he has for International Development no longer purchases made of the effect of Government corruption on the bottled mineral water as a matter of course, but instead effectiveness of UK overseas development aid to uses bottled filtered mains water that is prepared on developing countries; [281688] site. This change was made on the grounds of economy and environmental benefits. Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Development (DFID) undertakes Fiduciary Risk Departmental Flags Assessments (FRAs) in al countries to which DFID is providing, or considering providing, financial aid. These Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for include an explicit assessment of the risk of corruption, International Development how many flags his the strength of Government financial management systems Department owns; and how much has been spent on and the potential effect of the on all Government maintaining flags owned by his Department in the last expenditure including UK aid. 12 months. [282288] All FRAs are subject to an external independent scrutiny and are updated through annual statements of Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International progress. Development (DFID) has not incurred expenditure on the maintenance of flags in the last 12 months. Information on flags held by overseas offices is not Pakistan: International Assistance held centrally and could not be obtained without incurring disproportionate cost. Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what discussions he has Departmental Official Cars had with his international counterparts on the shortfall in financial assistance for the UN appeal for internally Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for displaced persons from Swat and other parts of International Development how much his Department Malakand in north west Pakistan; and what plans his spent on (a) buying and (b) renting cars in the last Department has for the provision of further assistance financial year for which records are available. [275525] to the appeal. [281907] 1101W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1102W

Mr. Michael Foster: There have been regular discussions child protection activities, emergency surgery and post- between members of the Cabinet, including the Prime operative follow-up care for war wounded civilians, Minister and Secretary of State for International many of them children. Development, and the Government of Pakistan, on the The UK Government also contribute to UNICEF’s needs of those displaced by conflict in Pakistan. The work to protect child rights in Sri Lanka. UNICEF Prime Minister has also spoken with UN Secretary-General monitors instances of child recruitment, works to secure Ban Ki-moon and the Minister of State for International the release of child soldiers and runs a rehabilitation Development (Mr. Thomas), recently met with John centre for former child combatants. Holmes, UN Under-Secretary-General for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs. Uganda: Maternity Services The Department for International Development (DFID) and UK embassies have been lobbying international Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for donors, including the European Commission, to increase International Development what steps his Department their contribution to the response to the humanitarian is taking to improve the survival rate of mothers during emergency in North West Pakistan. Funding for the childbirth in northern Uganda; and if he will make a appeal has been increasing and currently stands at statement. [281619] 35.5 per cent. We have so far provided £22 million of humanitarian aid, including £12.5 million in support of Mr. Thomas: The Department for International the UN’s appeal. This is the second largest bilateral Development (DFID) is working with the Ugandan contribution to the humanitarian effort. We will continue Government to improve access to good quality health to monitor the humanitarian situation and funding services, including family planning, throughout the country. position, and will consider additional funding if needed. Our budget support is being used to raise the performance of the Ugandan health system and ensure health workers Pakistan: Overseas Aid are well trained and adequately resourced with drugs and supplies. Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Over half of the £100 million DFID has programmed International Development what steps his Department for recovery in northern Uganda is targeted at improving is taking to aid refugees from the Swat valley living in the quality of services in conflict affected districts. The camps or ad hoc accommodation; and if he will make a programme will help to ensure that good quality maternal statement. [281672] health care services are established in these districts of northern Uganda. Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Development (DFID) has so far made available £22 million of humanitarian aid for those people who have been displaced by conflict in Pakistan’s federally administered CABINET OFFICE tribal areas and north west frontier province, including the Swat valley. £12.5 million of this has been allocated Age to support the UN co-ordinated Pakistan Humanitarian Response Plan and £9 million has been allocated to the Tim Farron: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet International Committee for the Red Cross. The remainder Office what estimate has been made of the average age of our funding is being used to support a local non of the population in each district in each year since governmental organisation working with the displaced 1997. [281982] and to help the overall coordination of the humanitarian effort. Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. An estimated total of 2.4 million people have been I have asked the authority to reply. displaced, of which about 200,000 are living in camps and the rest with host communities. DFID’s funding is Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated June 2009: providing food, shelter, water and sanitation, healthcare As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your and protection for the most vulnerable. DFID is also question asking what estimate has been made of the average age making contributions to the funding that is being provided of the population in each district in each year since 1997. (281982) by the UN’s Central Emergency Response Fund and by Table 1 shows the median age of the resident population in each local authority district in the UK for the years 1997 to 2007. the European Commission. These figures are based on the mid-year population estimates and mid-2007 is the latest year for which data are available. Sri Lanka: Children A copy of the table will be placed in the Library of the House.

Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Carbon Emissions: Departmental Coordination International Development what steps his Department is taking to aid children injured or displaced during the Gregory Barker: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet recent conflict in Sri Lanka; and if he will make a Office pursuant to the answer of 10 February 2009, statement. [281671] Official Report, column 1847W, on carbon emissions, what cross-departmental co-operation her Department Mr. Michael Foster: Since September 2008, the is supporting. [281306] Department for International Development (DFID) has allocated £12.5 million of humanitarian assistance Angela E. Smith: The Department for Energy and to NGOs and UN agencies operating in Sri Lanka. This Climate Change is responsible for the formulation of is providing a wide range of life saving activities including Government policy on addressing carbon emissions. 1103W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1104W

The Cabinet Office’s role is to support the co-ordination Ms Rosie Winterton: The White Paper Communities of Government policy. It does so by supporting Cabinet in Control was published in July 2008. We currently do and Cabinet Committee system, which provides a not have plans to take forward a number of minor framework for the collective consideration of, and decisions proposals from the White Paper, namely on remote on, major policy issues and questions of significant attendance and voting by councillors, payments for public interest. councillors on loss of office, and incentives to vote in Information relating to the proceedings of Cabinet local elections. Committees, including when and how often they meet, On June 1 2009 we published the “Communities is generally not disclosed as to do so could harm the Progress Report” which recorded the substantial progress frankness and candour of internal discussion. achieved in the implementation of “Communities in Control”. We will continue to review the implementation Lord Paul of Marylebone programme for the White Paper as it develops.

Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Minister for the Demos Cabinet Office whether Lord Paul of Marylebone has a security pass for 10 Downing Street; and if she will Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [281911] Communities and Local Government what (a) private meetings and (b) public engagements Ministers in his Angela E. Smith: No. Department have attended at which representatives Public Sector: Pay from the think-tank Demos were present in the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [279514] Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office if she will take steps to ensure that all increases Mr. Malik: Ministers and officials have meetings with in senior executive pay in the public sector are below a wide variety of organisations in the public and private sectors as part of the process of policy development the rate of inflation. [271953] and delivery.As was the case with previous Administrations, Mr. Byrne: I have been asked to reply. it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of all such meetings. Government policy is that all public sector pay settlements should reflect the individual labour market position of Departmental Billing each work force, particularly their recruitment and retention position; be consistent with achievement of the Bank of England’s CPI inflation target of 2 per cent.; be affordable Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for for Departments and; represent value for money for Communities and Local Government how many days taxpayers. on average (a) his Department and (b) each of its agencies has taken to pay invoices from suppliers in Senior staff have an important role to play in showing each month since November 2008. [278910] leadership in exercising pay restraint. In March 2009, the Government announced that pay awards for senior Mr. Malik: The average time in days taken to pay public sector groups for 2009-10 would be limited to suppliers by the Department in each month since November 1.5 per cent. This covers senior civil servants, judges, 2008 is as follows: very senior managers in the NHS and chief executives of non-departmental public bodies. (b) Agency (a) Department— Queen CLG Elizabeth II CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES (including Planning Conference Fire Service GOs) Inspectorate Centre College Schools: Sports November 9122125 2008 Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, December 7142123 Schools and Families when he expects the results of the 2008 School Sport Survey for 2008-09 to be published. January 7121925 [282252] 2009 February 7 7 17 25 Mr. Iain Wright: The 2008-09 School Sport Survey is 2009 March 8 7 17 25 expected to be published in the early autumn. 2009 April 9 7 17 23 2009 May 2009 6 8 17 26 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Community Development Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for the answer of 18 May 2009, Official Report, column Communities and Local Government which proposals 1192W, on departmental billing, how much his in his Department’s White Paper, Communities in Department’s non-departmental public bodies paid in control: real people, real power are not planned to be interest under the Late Payment of Commercial Debts implemented. [282389] (Interest) Act 1998 in the last three years. [282333] 1105W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1106W

Mr. Malik: This information is not held centrally and Mr. Malik: The Department for Communities and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Local Government derived the following amounts of electricity from renewable sources between 2006 and Departmental Carbon Emissions 2008:

Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Percentage Communities and Local Government what estimate he Communities and local Government— has made of the volume of carbon dioxide emissions central offices 2006-07 2007-08 from offices in his Department in (a) 2006-07 and (b) Renewable electricity 92 91 2007-08 (i) in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent member of staff. [280955] The Department obtains its renewable energy through the office of Government commerce’s green tariff energy Mr. Malik: The Department for Communities and contract. Local Government produced the following quantities of carbon dioxide emissions in 2006-7 and 2007-8: Departmental Energy Communities and Local Government—Central Offices Total carbon dioxide Total carbon dioxide Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for (tonnes) per FTE (tonnes) Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the energy consumed per full-time 2006-07 8,613 2.3 equivalent member of staff in his Department in (a) 2007-08 6,998 2.5 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08. [280956]

Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Malik: The Department for Communities and Communities and Local Government what estimate he Local Government consumed the following quantities has made of the volume of carbon dioxide emissions of energy per full-time equivalent member of staff in arising from road-based transport of administrative 2006-07 and 2007-08: operations by his Department in (a) 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08 (i) in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent Communities and Local Government - member of staff. [281007] Central Offices 2006-07 2007-08 Mr. Malik: The Department for Communities and Electricity per FTE 3,510 3,924 Local Government generated the following quantities (kWh) of carbon dioxide from road-based transport through Gas per FTE (kWh) 2,364 2,289 Total energy per 5,874 6,213 administrative operations in 2006-07 and 2007-08: FTE (kWh)

Tonnes Departmental Waste Communities and local Government— central offices 2006-07 2007-08 Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Carbon dioxide 252 211 Communities and Local Government what estimate he Carbon dioxide per FTE 0.10 0.08 has made of the amount of waste arising from his Department in (a) 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08 (i) in total Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for and (ii) per full-time equivalent member of staff. Communities and Local Government what estimate he [281006] has made of the volume of carbon dioxide emissions arising from air travel by staff in his Department in (a) Mr. Malik: Communities and Local Government 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08 (i) in total and (ii) per generated the following quantities of waste in 2006-07 full-time equivalent member of staff. [281008] and 2007-08:

Mr. Malik: The Department for Communities and Tonnes Local Government generated the following quantities Communities and local Government— of carbon dioxide arising from air travel in 2006-07 and central offices 2006-07 2007-08 2007-08: Total waste 461 624 Total waste per FTE 0.12 0.23 Tonnes Communities and local Government —central offices 2006-07 2007-08 Departmental Water

Carbon dioxide 233 236 Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Carbon dioxide per FTE 0.06 0.09 Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the water consumption on his Departmental Electricity Department’s office estate in (a) 2005-06 and (b) 2006-07, (i) in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for member of staff. [280954] Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the percentage of electricity used by his Mr. Malik: The Department for Communities and Department which was derived from renewable sources Local Government used the following quantities of in (a) 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08. [280957] water in 2005-06 and 2006-07: 1107W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1108W

Communities and Local Government—Central Offices John Healey: Information on Homes and Communities Total water Water consumption per Agency expenditure including by local authority area, 3 3 consumption (m ) FTE (m ) will be published in the Agency’s annual report and 2005-06 17,767 18,292 accounts later this year. 2006-07 5.4 4.9 Housing: Low Incomes Eco-towns Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Nick Herbert: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Communities and Local Government whether the people in each local authority area registered with responses received relating to the HomeBuy agents in each of the last three years. PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) stage one financial [282258] viability study of the eco-towns programme have been passed to the PwC team; and what provision there is Mr. Ian Austin: The information is not collected for earlier comments to be taken into account during centrally. stage two of the study. [282212] John Healey: Alongside the final eco-towns planning Local Government: Termination of Employment policy statement, we will publish a Government response to the eco-towns consultation and a summary report of Julia Goldsworthy: To ask the Secretary of State for responses received, including those on the Financial Communities and Local Government on what dates Viability Study of the Eco-towns Programme. the monitoring group established under the Local Stage 2 of the work undertaken by our external Government (Early Termination of Employment) advisers is a separate piece of work to look at generic (Discretionary Compensation) (England and Wales) delivery issues for eco-towns as proposals are pursued. Regulations 2006 has met; whether minutes of the meetings of that group are published; and what the Empty Housing: Milton Keynes names of the members of that group are. [282198]

Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Ms Rosie Winterton: The Compensation Regulations Communities and Local Government what his most Monitoring Group met on four occasions, 21 December recent estimate is of the number of empty dwellings in 2006; 1 March 2007; 19 April 2007; and 18 June 2007. Milton Keynes. [281682] The minutes of meetings were not published. The group is chaired by an official from Communities and Local Mr. Ian Austin: In October 2008, Milton Keynes Government and membership of the group is made up council reported there were 2,290 empty dwellings in of representatives from the Local Government Employers their area. Organisation, the Public Sector People’s Managers Fires: Smoking Association, Unison, Unite the Union, GMB and the TUC.

Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Mortgages: Government Assistance Communities and Local Government what research he has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on the effect Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for of trends in levels of smoking in domestic premises on Communities and Local Government how many trends in the number of domestic fires since 1988. people have (a) applied for and (b) been refused [281705] assistance through the Mortgage Rescue Scheme in (i) Mr. Malik: Research has been commissioned into England and (ii) Milton Keynes in each month since factors that relate to the incidence of fires and deaths in the Scheme’s inception. [281681] dwellings. This research, undertaken in early spring 2009, found that statistically smoking is one of a number John Healey: The mortgage rescue scheme has been of factors associated with the fall in dwelling fire deaths. operational across England since January 2009. As part The research will published in the autumn. of the monitoring arrangements for the scheme, headline data for January-April 2009, provided by local authorities Housing: Finance operating the scheme and broken down by Government office region, are available on the Department’s website. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for The figures can be assessed using the following link: Communities and Local Government how much http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ funding has been allocated by the Homes and statistics/mortgagerescuestatistics Communities Agency to each local authority in each of Figures reported by local authorities from January to the next two years. [282256] April 2009 are provided in a table, which has been placed in the Library. John Healey: The information requested could be provided only at disproportionate cost. In the current economic conditions, we have acted rapidly to put in place help and support for households Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for struggling with their mortgage at every stage: from free Communities and Local Government how much debt advice when problems start, to free support for funding each local authority has received from the cases that reach court. Advice is available to all households Homes and Communities Agency since its struggling with their mortgage, with targeted schemes establishment. [282257] for those in most need. 1109W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1110W

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Right to Buy Scheme for Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the number of people who will be Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for assisted by the Homeowner Mortgage Support Scheme Communities and Local Government on what date he in (a) Peterborough and (b) England in the next expects to publish his Department’s most recent figures 12 months. [281954] on Right to Buy (a) receipts, (b) sales and (c) levels of discount. [282613] John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave my hon. Friend for Tamworth (Mr. Jenkins) on Mr. Ian Austin: The 2008-09 figures on right-to-buy 24 June 2009, Official Report, column 691W. sales, receipts and levels of discount will be published in a Statistical Release and in the “Live Tables” section of Non-Domestic Rates: Cambridgeshire the CLG website in August 2009. The 2007-08 right-to-buy figures were released in the Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State “Live Tables” section of the CLG website in August for Communities and Local Government what estimate 2008 at: he has made of the number of businesses in (a) http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ Peterborough and (b) Cambridgeshire which qualify housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/socialhousingsales/ for small business rate relief and do not claim it. livetables/ [281721]

Ms Rosie Winterton: We have not made an estimate ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE of the number of businesses in Peterborough and Cambridgeshire which qualify for small business rate Carbon Sequestration: Algae relief but do not claim it. Mr. Pelling: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Police: Council Tax and Climate Change what his Department’s policy is on the use of artificial measures to create algae bloom for the purposes of carbon capture; and if he will make Mr. Wilshire: To ask the Secretary of State for a statement. [281113] Communities and Local Government on what date his Department first informed Surrey Police Authority Huw Irranca-Davies: I have been asked to reply. that it intended to use (a) a 2008-09 notional budget While the priorities for tackling climate change should requirement and (b) a 2008-09 notional Band D continue to be overwhelmingly focussed on greenhouse council tax rate when deciding whether to cap Surrey gas emission reductions, and adaptation to unavoidable Police Authority’s precept. [281617] climate change, we should not rule out any climate change mitigation technologies at an early stage. Ms Rosie Winterton: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my hon. Friend the Member for Ocean fertilisation involves adding nutrients, usually Portsmouth, North (Sarah McCarthy-Fry) on 16 June iron, nitrogen or phosphorus compounds, to nutrient 2009, Official Report, column 210W. depleted areas of the open ocean, with the aim of increasing phytoplankton production to absorb additional Regional Planning and Development: Finance amounts of carbon dioxide and storing a proportion of the additional carbon production below the surface layers of the ocean when the plankton dies. Further Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for research into both the effectiveness of this practice as a Communities and Local Government what the role of carbon sequestration measure and the impact that this (a) regional planning bodies and (b) regional practice may have on the marine environment would be development agencies is regarding decisions on required before this technique is considered for use as a regional funding allocations. [282407] climate change mitigation technology. Ms Rosie Winterton: Each English region outside Any research into ocean fertilisation should follow London provides regional funding advice to Ministers. the precautionary approach and comply with the The advice is based on work led by the regional development Convention on Biological Diversity and the London agency and regional assembly (or leaders’ board, where Protocol to the Convention on the Prevention of Marine such a body has replaced the assembly), supported by Pollution by Dumping of Wastes and Other Matter. the Government office. However, final decisions on Coal Health Compensation Scheme regional funding allocations are a matter for Ministers. Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Regional Planning and Development: Transport Energy and Climate Change what the net present value of the Coal Health Compensation Scheme is; and if he Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for will make a statement. [267760] Communities and Local Government what requirement there is for regional planning bodies to Mr. Kidney: There are two Coal Health Compensation develop regional transport strategies. [282409] Schemes. The Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease Scheme (COPD) and the Vibration White Finger Scheme Mr. Ian Austin: All regional spatial strategies are (VWF). The Department received over 760,000 claims required to include a regional transport strategy. Details in total. are set out in planning policy statement 11: Regional The total amount paid in compensation to former Spatial Strategies. miners and their families is £4 billion as at May 2009. 1111W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1112W

This breaks down to £2.3 billion paid in compensation Mr. Kidney: The Severn tidal power feasibility study under the COPD Scheme and £1.7 billion under VWF will include two public consultations. The first of these Scheme. was held earlier this year when my Department sought These values are actual compensation costs paid. The views on the scope of the work, including a recommended net present value is an accounting term which was not shortlist of schemes for further analysis. Details of used to calculate the coal health compensation. public engagement were set out in the answer to PQ 2660. The Government response to this consultation Energy: Billing will be published shortly on the DECC website. The second consultation will be held at the end of the Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy feasibility study (probably in 2010) to seek views on and Climate Change what research his Department has whether Government should support a Severn tidal (a) evaluated and (b) commissioned on the effect on power scheme and if so on what terms. During this progress towards energy consumption reduction targets consultation, we plan to hold public meetings on both of the structure of energy (i) bills and (ii) tariffs. sides of the Severn estuary. [280903] Prior to this second consultation, we hope to be working with the Sciencewise Expert Resource Centre Mr. Kidney: DECC considers analysis from a range to hold a small scale public meeting for invited members of sources on factors affecting energy use, in order to of the public (particularly members of the public near inform policy development. the Severn estuary). This work is intended to provide a DECC is co-funding the Energy Demand Research representative view on Severn tidal power at this point, Project, which is enabling the Government, energy suppliers the priority issues for people and how best to communicate and others to test through a variety of interventions information in the consultation. (Sciencewise-ERC supports how electricity and gas customers respond to better public dialogue through funding from the Department information about their consumption. Interventions include for Business, Innovation and Skills). smart metering, real-time display devices, additional We will also continue working with stakeholders billing information, energy efficiency information and (including representatives of local communities, such as community engagement, along with combinations of local authorities and Members of Parliament) over the these interventions. course of the feasibility study. There are a number of Ofgem has recently held a public consultation on groups and events for stakeholders to participate in, as proposals for new obligations on suppliers relating to also described in the answer given to the hon. Member consumer information and engagement. We look forward on 14 May 2009, Official Report, column 957W, if they to seeing Ofgem’s further proposals in order to get the wish to contribute to evidence gathering and analysis. best results in terms of providing consumers with the Information on these events and regular updates on information they need and can use. progress are available on our website at: Ofgem is also undertaking exploratory work on potential www.decc.gov.uk/severntidalpower interactions between tariff structures and the incentives for energy efficiency. HEALTH Energy: Prices Chiropractic

Dr. Stoate: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Climate Change what steps his Department is what plans he has for the implementation of the new taking to encourage energy suppliers to simplify (a) National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence tariffs and (b) bill format for domestic customers. guidelines on access to chiropractice. [281360] [279071] Mr. Mike O’Brien: The National Institute for Health Mr. Kidney: DECC firmly believes that tariff structures and Clinical Excellence (NICE) guideline in question is and information to consumers should be accessible and for management of persistent non-specific lower back easier to understand, enabling consumers to make the pain, for which a number of potential treatments are right decisions about energy use, tariffs and suppliers. included in the recommendations. To aid implementation The regulator Ofgem has recently closed a public of this guideline, NICE has developed tools which offer consultation on a number of proposals to improve the advice on costings and commissioning, and these are consumer energy supply markets, including proposals available on their website alongside the main guideline seeking to end confusion over tariffs, to improve information at: overall to consumers, and to give added protection to http://guidance.nice.org.uk/CG88 consumers when they switch supplier. Departmental Food We support Ofgem’s work and look forward to seeing results from that process, in order to get the best results Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for consumers. what percentage of the (a) meat, (b) fruit and (c) vegetables procured by his Department in the last 12 River Severn: Tidal Power months was produced in the UK. [281942]

Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Phil Hope: The figures for 2008-09 are not yet available. and Climate Change how the review of tidal energy in The proportion of domestically produced food procured the River Severn plans to take into account the views of by the Department has gone up from 58.5 per cent., in people resident beside the river. [281349] 2006-07 to 74 per cent., in 2007-08. 1113W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1114W

Quadrant Catering provides the staff restaurant and it is too early to demonstrate a trend, the latest report hospitality catering at the Department of Health sites indicates that the amount of domestically produced in London and Eurest Services provides the same services food consumed by Government Departments in England to Department for Work and Pensions, which includes is increasing. Data for the Department of Health were the Quarry House site in Leeds where some Department not included in these reports, but will be included in a of Health employees are based. Both Quadrant Catering third report that is expected to be published at the end and Eurest Services are part of Compass Group UK of 2009. and Ireland, one of the United Kingdom’s largest contract caterers. Departmental Lost Property Specific information about British products used within the Department of Health and Department for Work Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Pensions contracts is listed as follows. This information how many laptop computers belonging to (a) his was made publicly available in late 2008 and there will Department and (b) its agencies have been lost or be another report produced towards the end of 2009. stolen in the last five years. [281064] Proportion of domestically produced food used (by value), i.e. indigenously produced, 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008 Phil Hope: The following table lists the numbers of Type Percentage laptops reported lost or stolen from the Department and its agencies, Medicines Healthcare products and Bakery—e.g. bread loaves and rolls (i.e. origin of 100 ingredients used and not where baked) Regulatory Agency (MHRA) and the NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency (PASA).

Dairy Number Whole eggs (i.e. in shells) 100 Department Fresh milk (e.g. whole, semi-skimmed, skimmed) 100 of Health MHRA PASA Total Cheese 85 2004-05 23 0 0 23 2005-06 18 0 0 18 Vegetables, salads and fruit 2006-07 11 0 0 11 Ware potatoes—whole, unprepared 95 2007-08 14 0 0 14 Processed potatoes—for prepared both whole and cut 95 2008-09 34 2 0 36 Roots and onions—e.g. carrots, parsnips, onions, turnips 95 and swedes All the missing departmental and MHRA laptops Brassicas—e.g. brussel sprouts, cabbage and cauliflower. 64 were encrypted so we have minimised the risk of exposure Legumes—e.g. beans (broad), beans (runner and dwarf), 50 of sensitive or personal data. peas (green for market), peas (green for processing), peas (harvested dry) Protected vegetables—e.g. tomatoes (round, vine, plum 25 Drugs: Patients and cherry), tomatoes (cold), cucumbers, lettuce, celery, sweet peppers Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for Other vegetables—e.g. asparagus, celery, leeks, lettuce, 511 watercress Health whether he has made an estimate of the number Orchard fruit—e.g. dessert apples, culinary apples, 511 of off-label drug treatments (a) provided and (b) pears, plums denied to patients in the last 12 months; and if he will Soft fruit—e.g. strawberries, raspberries, blackberries, 411 make a statement. [282416] blackcurrants Mr. Mike O’Brien: We have made no such estimate. Meat and poultry Poultry meat 100 General Practitioners Beef and veal 85 Mutton and lamb 60 Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Bacon 0 what guidance his Department issues to primary care Pork 85 trusts on the application of premises criteria to the Fish 40 designation of general practice surgeries. [281359] Overall percentage indigenous food 74 Overall percentage indigenous food by value if available 75 Mr. Mike O’Brien: Directions issued in 2004 contain 1 Overall minimum standards which primary care trusts use when Two reports have been published by the Department assessing the suitability of existing or proposed alternative for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the proportion premises. All primary medical care contractors have a of domestically produced food used by Government contractual obligation to provide premises that are: Departments, and supplied to hospitals and prisons suitable for the delivery of those services; and under contracts negotiated by NHS supply chain and sufficient to meet the reasonable needs of the contractor’s HM Prison Service, covering the years from 1 April patients. 2007 to 31 March 2008, and the previous year. The latest report (November 2008) and the first one can be Hospital Beds found at: www.defra.gov.uk/farm/policy/sustain/procurement/ Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for awareness.htm Health how many beds in NHS organisations (a) there The report gives details of the proportion of individual were and (b) were occupied in each ward type in each meat, fruit and vegetable categories purchased. Although of the last five years. [281151] 1115W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1116W

Mr. Mike O’Brien: The number of occupied and treated in primary care settings—experts all agree that available bed days and day only beds is collected annually, this is the best way to deliver health care to patients. from national health service providers. The following table shows the average daily number of available and Advances in medical technology and shorter stays for occupied beds in wards open overnight by ward routine operations mean fewer beds are needed across classification in England, 2003-04 to 2007-08. the service—this is part of a long-term downward trend Bed numbers have fallen because hospitals are dealing in the average length of stay in hospital. with patients more efficiently and more people are

Average daily number of available and occupied beds in wards open overnight by ward classification, England, 2003-04 to 2007-08 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 Ward Available Occupied Available Occupied Available Occupied Available Occupied Available Occupied classification beds beds beds beds beds beds beds beds beds beds

All ward 184,019 157,862 180,966 154,215 175,436 148,465 167,019 141,133 160,297 135,132 types

Intensive care: 1,491 1,084 1,523 1,120 1,707 1,207 1,658 1,233 1,734 1,257 neonates Intensive care: 239 164 263 201 321 236 335 246 306 217 paediatric Intensive care: 3,283 2,635 3,417 2,763 3,454 2,736 3,622 2,918 3,667 2,953 wholly or mainly adult Terminally 386 302 436 338 427 320 395 309 411 316 ill/palliative care: wholly or mainly adult Younger 914 738 859 698 792 649 566 445 512 392 physically disabled Other general 9,191 5,639 8,995 5,477 8,584 5,338 8,461 5,276 8,314 5,315 and acute: neonates and children Other general 25,580 23,713 24,853 22,826 22,987 21,134 21,141 19,381 19,239 17,562 and acute: elderly: normal care Other general 1,874 1,612 1,788 1,497 1,705 1,466 1,756 1,515 1,462 1,233 and acute: elderly: limited care Other general 94,289 83,409 94,030 82,350 92,850 80,805 89,042 77,047 86,137 74,670 and acute: other Maternity 9,309 5,896 9,081 5,727 8,881 5,774 8,643 5,567 8,441 5,397 Mental 460 333 505 360 492 328 462 312 505 355 illness: children: short stay Mental 58 42 20 14 17 15 35 25 18 15 illness: children: long stay Mental 7,528 6,304 7,475 6,202 7,343 6,016 6,945 5,726 6,577 5,320 illness: elderly: short stay Mental 4,574 3,773 4,043 3,409 3,591 2,909 2,832 2,346 2,417 2,007 illness: elderly: long stay Mental 2,569 2,378 2,696 2,472 2,807 2,545 2,993 2,722 3,159 2,885 illness: other ages: secure unit Mental 13,268 12,191 12,891 11,840 12,419 11,050 11,761 10,556 11,372 10,112 illness: other ages: short stay Mental 3,795 3,264 3,656 3,183 3,134 2,646 2,887 2,545 2,880 2,551 illness: other ages: long stay 1117W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1118W

Average daily number of available and occupied beds in wards open overnight by ward classification, England, 2003-04 to 2007-08 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 Ward Available Occupied Available Occupied Available Occupied Available Occupied Available Occupied classification beds beds beds beds beds beds beds beds beds beds

Learning 229 147 258 169 208 134 182 123 185 107 disabilities: children: short stay Learning 59 41 46 34 26 21 42 37 23 17 disabilities: children: long stay Learning 514 470 503 484 526 502 516 489 554 508 disabilities: other ages: secure unit Learning 1,210 955 1,222 962 1,188 938 1,098 867 1,053 774 disabilities: other ages: short stay Learning 3,199 2,771 2,387 2,087 1,978 1,696 1,649 1,448 1,332 1,169 disabilities: other ages: long stay Source: Department of Health form KH03.

Hospitals: Fires Gillian Merron: Surveys on the number of cycles of in vitro fertilisation offered by primary care trusts were Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Health published on the Department’s website in June 2008 what mechanisms there are for hospitals where fires and June 2009 and can be found at: have occurred to share information with other www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Fertility/index.htm hospitals about those fires. [281447] The surveys relate to information gathered for the years 2006-07 to 2009-10. Copies have been placed in Mr. Mike O’Brien: National health service organisations, the Library. excluding NHS foundation trusts, have a mandatory duty to report fire incidents to which the fire and rescue Muscular Dystrophy service has been called. Reporting is through the Estates Facilities Management (EFM) online information system Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for as set out in “Firecode: Health Technical Memorandum Health what funding his Department is providing for 05-01 Managing healthcare fire safety”, which has been research into Duchenne muscular dystrophy in 2009- placed in the Library. Information from reported fire 10. [281772] incidents is analysed to update the Department’s suite of fire safety guidance—Firecode. Gillian Merron: Both the Department and the Medical Hospitals: Information and Communications Research Council (MRC) support research into Duchenne Technology muscular dystrophy. The MRC spent £2.1 million on such research in 2007-08. (Figures for more recent years Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for are not yet available.) Projected Departmental expenditure Health pursuant to his answer of 21 May 2009, Official in the current financial year is principally expenditure Report, column 1595W, on hospitals: ICT, if he will by National Institute for Health Research Biomedical direct the NHS to develop a national IT protocol for an Research centres and amounts to £450,000. interface between the x-ray services provided by Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Centricity and Medway. [281680] what assessment he has made of the adequacy of the Mr. Mike O’Brien: This is a matter for the local number of centres of excellence for people with national health service bodies operating the systems muscular dystrophy. [282178] concerned. However, the NHS national programme for IT utilises industry standard messaging protocols when Ann Keen: We have made no assessment of the adequacy developing interfaces between systems, and has procured of the number of centres of excellence for those living picture archiving and communications (digital imaging) with muscular dystrophy. It is the responsibility of local systems that conform to the Dicom international standard. health bodies to ensure adequate health and social care Use of standards, as opposed to developing bespoke services to meet the needs of their local population with protocols, ensures local flexibility within the NHS. muscular dystrophy. In Vitro Fertilisation National Child Measurement Programme

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health how many in-vitro fertilisation treatments were when he expects the results of the National Child funded by the national health service in each region in Measurement Programme for 2008-09 to be published. each of the last three years. [282255] [282254] 1119W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1120W

Gillian Merron: The NHS Information Centre will commissioning a national audit of demand for publish the results of the National Child Measurement unfunded drugs, as referred to on page 6 of Improving Programme for 2008-09 in December 2009. access to medicines for NHS patients; what estimate he has made of the cost of meeting such demand; and if NHS: Drugs he will make a statement. [281585] Mr. Mike O’Brien: We are currently developing proposals Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for for pilots—which should begin later this year—to audit (a) (b) Health what requirements and regulations the demand for unfunded drugs. Until we have carried govern the promotion of medicines outside their out the pilots, we cannot estimate the cost of meeting licensed indication by (i) manufacturers, (ii) healthcare the demand for unfunded drugs. providers and (iii) other parties. [281583]

Mr. Mike O’Brien: The promotion of medicines is NHS: Fires regulated under the Medicines (Advertising) Regulations 1994, which implement Title VIII of Directive 2001/83/EC. Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) These regulations prohibit the promotion of a medicine how much has been spent by his Department on fire outside its licensed indication. The prohibition applies response training for NHS staff in each year since to industry, healthcare providers and other parties. 2003; [281444] (2) what fire response training is being provided for Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS staff in 2009-10. [281445] Health with reference to the answer to the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire of 24 November Mr. Mike O’Brien: National health service organisations 2008, Official Report, column 927W, on the NHS: determine locally the content, method of delivery and drugs, whether the review by strategic health frequency of their fire response training based on a authorities into collaboration in their areas to support suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment. Information effective decision-making has been concluded; and if on the expenditure on fire response training in the NHS he will make a statement. [281676] is not collected centrally.

Mr. Mike O’Brien: We would expect that all strategic NHS: Gypsies health authorities will have complied with the NHS chief executive’s letter of 4 November 2008 asking them to review the arrangements in place in their local area Mr. Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for and how collaboration could be encouraged to support Health what plans there are to ensure that Gypsies and better decision making. It is the responsibility of each Travellers have the same access as others to the NHS. organisation’s board to ensure that this has been followed [282088] in their area. Phil Hope: The Department has embarked on a Since then, the NHS constitution, launched in January programme of work to improve the health status of 2009, says that patients have the right to expect local Gypsies and Travellers. The programme, including decisions on funding of other drugs and treatments to Pacesetters, is aiming for better awareness of community be made rationally, following a proper consideration of needs among national health service professionals; more the evidence. This right is underpinned by: effective health promotion among Gypsy and Traveller defining guiding principles for processes supporting local decision communities; and better access to both primary and making about medicines, published in January 2009; secondary care for community members. This work is www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ based on engagement and partnership working with PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_093413 both the NHS and Gypsy and Traveller communities. supporting rational local decision-making about medicines and treatments: A handbook of good practice guidance, published by the National Prescribing Centre in March 2009; NHS: Management Consultants www.npc.co.uk/policy/local/constitution_handbook.htm and Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much the national health service spent on external new statutory directions to primary care trusts (PCTs) and consultants in each of the last five years. [280339] NHS trusts concerning decisions about drugs and other treatments 2009, which came into force on 1 April 2009 Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department does not collect www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ PublicationsLegislation/DH_096067 the specific information requested centrally. As a result of the various measures we have put in place, we expect to see significant improvements in NHS: Private Sector PCTs’ decision-making processes, including increased transparency and consistency in the way these decisions Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for are made. This will mean that patients and the public Health (1) what steps his Department has taken to can be very clear about what the national health service inform primary care trusts of the Moving Beyond is offering them by way of access to drugs and how Sponsorship programme; and if he will make a those decisions about funding are taken. statement; [281175] (2) how many primary care trusts have participated Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for in the Moving Beyond Sponsorship programme to Health what progress his Department has made in date; and if he will make a statement. [281176] 1121W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1122W

Mr. Mike O’Brien: In February 2008, the Department Patient Choice Schemes published best practice guidance for joint working between the national health service and the pharmaceutical industry, where this benefits patients, and within appropriate governance arrangements. To support NHS organisations Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for and companies who wish to enter into such projects, the Health what expenditure his Department has incurred Department published in March 2008 an interactive on services enabling patients to make hospital toolkit to support joint working, entitled “Moving Beyond appointments in the last 12 months; and how many Sponsorship”. people worked on these services at the latest date for The Department has undertaken an awareness campaign which figures are available. [281872] to promote this to the NHS including attendance at 11 key conferences, including NHS Confederation—Primary Care Network, the NHS Alliance and NICE conferences. Mr. Mike O’Brien: Expenditure incurred by NHS We will be working with strategic health authorities to Direct on services to support booking of first consultant raise awareness within their regions. outpatient appointments through the appointments line Joint working is taking place within a number of and the number of staff working in these areas is primary care trusts, however, the Department does not included in the following table. collect information on individual projects.

Expenditure (including staff and non-staff costs) April Staff (in whole- time Expenditure (including staff Staff (in whole-time 2008 to March 2009 (£ equivalents) April 2008 to and non-staff costs) April to equivalents) April to May million) March 2009 May 2009 (£ million) 2009

National Appointments Line 7.033 213.21 1.242 240.92 (NHS Direct) Source: NHS Direct

Prescription Drugs at the public received 1,750 responses. Oral evidence sessions were held with 18 key stakeholders. A total of Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for six workshops were held across England as part of the Health what recent representations he has received on deliberative research with general practitioners (GPs), the use of generic prescription drugs in the NHS; and if involving 30 GPs in total. he will make a statement. [281833]

Mr. Mike O’Brien: The pharmaceutical price regulation Stem Cells: Research scheme (2008) announced that subject to discussion with affected parties, the Department will introduce Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health generic substitution in primary care. This is a complex what mechanisms his Department uses to ensure the issue with many interested stakeholders. Discussions efficient use of the funds allocated by his Department with key stakeholders and interested parties are still for the purpose of stem cell research. [281877] underway and are expected to continue into early summer. Some representations have also been received in written Mr. Lammy: I have been asked to reply. format. Issues covered are broad but include implementation implications, for example, whether to exclude certain The Medical Research Council (MRC) is one of the categories of medicines for clinical reasons. We want to main agencies through which the Government supports make sure we engage with all stakeholders in the best medical and clinical research. The MRC provides funding way possible and are currently considering how best to for research through a range of grants and personal do so. awards to scientists in universities, medical schools and other research institutes. Applications are generally Prescriptions: Fees and Charges submitted by the scientific community in ‘response mode’ and the MRC always welcomes high quality applications for support into any aspect of human Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for health. Funding is usually provided in open competition Health pursuant to the answer of 16 June 2009, Official across all areas of science, though the MRC also issues Report, columns 230-1W, on prescriptions: fees and targeted calls for proposals to stimulate research in charges, how many respondents there were to Professor strategic priority areas. Ian Gilmore’s web-based survey of prescription charges; how many written submissions of evidence The MRC has also earmarked specific funding to were made to his review of prescription charges; how build capacity through studentships and clinical training many oral evidence sessions the review held with fellowships in the stem cell area. stakeholder groups; and with how many GPs All applications are peer reviewed by independent deliberative research on prescription charges has been scientific experts in the UK and overseas. This peer conducted in the last financial year. [282056] review is the first part of a two-stage process, which helps the MRC’s research boards and committees to Mr. Mike O’Brien: The written consultation received decide which proposals to consider at their funding 39 submissions. The web-based survey aimed primarily meetings. The research boards use similar criteria to 1123W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1124W those of the referees and also identify any ethical The MRC spent £25.6 million on research on stem issues or risks to human participants that need further cells in 2007-08. A list of the projects, which includes attention. neurological projects, will be placed in both Libraries of The primary considerations in funding decisions are the House. research excellence and importance to health; however, high quality proposals in areas of particular strategic Strokes: Bexley importance may be given priority in competition for funds. Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health how many reported cases of stroke there were to which (a) neurological research and (b) other in (a) males and (b) females in each age group in the projects his Department has allocated funding for the London Borough of Bexley in each year since 1999. purpose of stem cell research. [281878] [281658]

Mr. Lammy: I have been asked to reply. Ann Keen: The following table provides a count of the The Medical Research Council (MRC) is one of the finished admission episodes for stroke in Bexley Care main agencies through which the Government supports Trust broken down by age group and sex for the years medical and clinical research. 1999-2000 to 2007-08.

Count of finished admission episodes for a primary diagnosis of stroke* in Bexley PCT for the ten year period 1998-99 to 2007-08, given by age groups and gender. Activity in English national health service hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector 1999- Gender Age groups 2007-08 2006-07 2005-06 2004-05 2003-04 2002-03 2001-02 2000-01 2000 1998-99

Male 0-900000*00*0 10-190***0**000 20-29**0***000* 30-39**66***0012 40-4988711887*** 50-59 27 20 20 11 16 18 16 10 20 11 60-69 31 27 33 21 27 28 23 27 25 33 70-79 51 55 45 47 50 48 45 34 54 47 80-89 46 34 40 31 49 41 33 48 36 47 90+811**1186**6 Total male 177 158 157 131 168 162 138 127 146 185

Female 0-9*00*0**80* 10-190000*000** 20-29**0***0*00 30-397********0 40-49*9*8**6*6* 50-59719171315131414*13 60-69 17 20 27 24 18 18 28 18 33 25 70-79 34 34 46 50 40 46 45 56 37 48 80-89 81 54 61 77 75 53 62 56 58 66 90+ 24 16 17 29 26 25 13 20 15 13 Total females 176 165 183 205 135 165 175 174 157 177

Unknown 80-89 0010000000

Grand Total 353 324 341 336 355 327 318 301 308 342 Source: Hospital Episodes Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Kevin Brennan [holding answer 11 May 2009]: The National Apprenticeship Service online vacancy matching Apprentices system has been developed to provide a high quality service to employers wishing to recruit apprentices, and Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, to young people and adults considering an apprenticeship. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how This will help deliver the objective outlined in World-class many apprenticeships in each industry have been (a) Apprenticeships to expand and improve the quality of advertised and (b) filled through the National our apprenticeship programme. Apprenticeship Vacancy Matching Service. [274421] 1125W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1126W

At the end of April 2009, 4,157 vacancies were live on Officials from the Departments for Energy and Climate the system; a total of 8,051 vacancies have been posted Change and Transport will be considering this issue in since 12 January 2009 when the system went live. the course of their joint working on electric vehicle 93 vacancies have been filled through the service with infrastructure. 2,445 vacancies having current applications. The figures at this stage provide provisional data on apprenticeship Fuels: Prices applications. Feedback from a number of employers suggest that the recruitment process can take up to four months. In addition, the system was built to allow Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, employers flexibility to integrate the advertising of Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what apprenticeship opportunities on the system, with their assessment he has made of likely future trends in the own HR systems. In these instances candidates click pump prices of (a) unleaded petrol and (b) diesel. through the Vacancy Matching System to the employers’ [280157] own recruitment website. The National Apprenticeship Service (NAS) is looking at how feedback can be obtained Mr. Kidney: I have been asked to reply. from these employers, mainly national companies, without DECC does not forecast the pump prices of unleaded putting undue bureaucracy on them. petrol or diesel. However, we do publish long-term oil price projections. Further details are available through Council for Science and Technology the following links: http://www.berr.gov.uk/energy/environment/projections/ recent/page26391.html Gregory Barker: To ask the Minister of State, http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file51365.pdf Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what work the Council for Science and Technology (a) has Assumptions about a weighted average of road fuel undertaken and (b) plans to undertake on energy and prices, based DECC’s oil price projections, are also used climate-related matters. [280371] in our Updated Energy Projections. These assumptions are available through the following links: Mr. Lammy: The Council for Science and Technology http://www.berr.gov.uk/energy/environment/projections/ index.html (CST) produced a report in 2005 entitled ‘An electricity supply strategy for the UK’, and a report in 2007 http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file48514.pdf entitled ‘Strategic decision making for technology policy’ which included energy technologies. Overseas Students: USA CST is currently undertaking a project titled ‘Anational infrastructure for the 21st century’, which includes both Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, the energy sector and the impact of climate change. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he CST has no immediate plans to undertake any further will bring forward proposals to increase the number of projects on energy or climate-related matters. US students studying in this country. [282228] Mr. Lammy: I have no plans to bring forward specific Gregory Barker: To ask the Minister of State, proposals for increasing the number of students from Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what the United States studying at higher education institutions work the Council for Science and Technology is in the United Kingdom. However, through the second undertaking on future infrastructure policy. [280372] phase of the Prime Minister’s initiative for international education (PMI2), the Government are working with Mr. Lammy: The Council for Science and Technology the education sector to increase the number of international (CST) is currently undertaking a project titled ‘Anational students studying in this country. The United States is infrastructure for the 21st Century’. one of the priority countries for PMI2. The numbers of This project is taking a cross-cutting view of the students from the United States choosing to study in water, energy, transport and communications infrastructures the UK has increased from 8,735 in 2000-01 to 13,900 and will make high level recommendations to Government students in 2007-08, the latest date for which data is on interventions needed to ensure a national infrastructure available, an increase of 59 per cent. that continues to support economic growth and social wellbeing. Rover Group The plan is to publish the report before the summer recess. Richard Burden: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he Electric Vehicles will request the inspectors investigating MG Rover to produce a progress report setting out (a) the estimated length of time required to complete the inquiry, (b) the Gregory Barker: To ask the Minister of State, estimated additional cost to complete the inquiry and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what (c) an explanation of the time taken to complete the recent assessment he has made of the merits of inquiry. [281152] designating electric vehicle charging points as regulated assets. [280368] Ian Lucas: The inspectors delivered their report on 11 June 2009. It will be for my noble Friend the Secretary Mr. Kidney: I have been asked to reply. of State to consider its findings and next steps. 1127W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1128W

The total cost of the Rover inquiry as at 31 May 2009 The Learning and Skills Council has confirmed that was £15,922,838 (broken down as £13,134,334 in costs, contracts for delivery of provision were in place at the £451,542 in disbursements and £2,336,962 in VAT). end of April and that provision is now available across The Inquiry was complex but the cost has been very the country. high. The Government will carefully consider the approach This is a new programme and data on take up is not to any future exercises of this sort with a view to yet available. minimising expense to the taxpayer. Steve Webb: To ask the Minister of State, Train to Gain Programme Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many pre-employment training places have been funded by his Department in each month since June Mr. Djanogly: To ask the Minister of State, 2007; and if he will make a statement. [272648] Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people (a) started and (b) completed a training Kevin Brennan: It is vitally important that people course under the Train to Gain scheme in the last 12 seeking employment are able to get the help they need months. [270529] to overcome the skills barriers they face and improve their chances of finding sustainable work. Kevin Brennan [holding answer 23 April 2009]: Train DIUS and DWP are working together to develop a to Gain is the Government’s flagship service providing comprehensive package of advice and training support, advice, support and funding to employers in England, delivered through an integrated service supported by of all sizes and in all sectors. It gives employers better Job Centre Plus and the Learning and Skills Council. access to a wider range of opportunities for improving the skills of their employees, and the productivity of That package includes advice and guidance available their business. through nextstep and the Careers Advice Service, including a skills health check to ensure that training fits individuals’ Learner participation in Train to Gain is recorded in needs. the Statistical First Release, which was issued on 26 March 2009 by the national Data Service. The Statistical First Places funded by the Adult Learner Responsive are Release provides data by academic year, and shows that available to learners claiming benefits. The LSC also 346,200 people started a training course through Train funds training places for those with identified skills to Gain between 1 August 2007 and 31 July 2008 and development needs. Figures for the number of places on 386,200 started between 1 August 2008 and 31 January specific programmes are broken down by academic 2009. year. 187,300 individuals achieved a qualification between Pre-employment places were available on the 1 August 2007 and 31 July 2008, and 152,000 achieved Employability Skills Programme and Skills for Jobs as one between 1 August 2008 and 31 January 2009. follows:

Further information is available in the Statistical Employability Skills First Release which can be found at: Programme (ESP) Skills for Jobs

http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/sfrmar09/ 2006-07 5,844 — summary.htm 2007-08 15,908 10,227 2008-09 115,129 27,402 Vocational Training 1 To end February 2009. 2 To end March 2009 when this programme ended. Steve Webb: To ask the Minister of State, From April 2009, the LSC is funding two new Department for Business, Innovation and Skills with programmes providing work-focused pre-employment reference to his Department’s press release of training for people facing redundancy and the unemployed. 17 December 2008, on funding for advice to people Data on participation is not yet available. who have lost their jobs, over what time period the additional 40,000 pre-employment training places will Steve Webb: To ask the Minister of State, be put in place; and how many additional training Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what places have been established at the most recent date for proportion of pre-employment training offered by which information is available. [272647] Jobcentre Plus is funded by (a) his Department and (b) the Learning and Skills Council; and how much Kevin Brennan: The Government’s announcement covered such funding was allocated in each quarter of the last a £100 million package of funding to support people three years. [272650] who are under notice of redundancy, newly redundant or close to the labour market. The unit cost will vary Kevin Brennan: We are not able to give the full answer according to the type and duration of training that to this question because the cost of training can not be individual does undertake. We have reassessed the capacity distinguished from the Department of Work and Pension’s of the funding, and estimate that we will now support wider investment in employment provision. around 70,000 learners through this provision. This was Through the Learning and Skills Council, my announced as an important part of the wider package Department funds specific pre-employment programmes of support being made available to help those facing aimed at helping people overcome skills barriers to redundancy. The additional places are funded through employment. Those programmes are the Employability the Learning and Skills Council and will help people Skills Programme and Skills for Jobs and both are improve their employability skills and find work. delivered in partnership with Jobcentre Plus. 1129W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1130W

Funding figures are available for full year spend and Mr. Straw: Reported losses or thefts of laptops belonging are as follows: to the Ministry of Justice, since it was established in Employability Skills Programme May 2007, are as follows: £ million Number 2006-07 23 2007-08 5 2007-08 24.8 2008-09 5 2008-09 36.5 Reported losses or thefts of laptops belonging to Skills for Jobs were introduced in January 2008 and Ministry of Justice agencies, including Her Majesty’s have spent £18.4 million from January 2008 and end Courts Service, Tribunals Service National Offender March 2009. Management Service (including Her Majesty’s Prison Two new programmes worth £183 million have recently Service and the National Probation Service), are as been introduced to support more people who are newly follows: unemployed and unemployed for six months to train and gain sustainable employment. Data on participation Number is not yet available. 2007 11 Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2008 19 for Business, Innovation and Skills which 10 occupations have the largest number of unemployed Four of the laptops belonging to agencies reported workers undertaking retraining. [274055] lost were subsequently recovered. Another one of those lost went missing in delivery and had never been used. Kevin Brennan [holding answer 8 May 2009]: The Reported losses for the predecessor Department for Department does not collect or hold this information Constitutional Affairs, including its agencies, are as centrally. follows: Woolworths: Vocational Training Number Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many former 2004 27 employees of Woolworths have undertaken 2005 20 government retraining courses; and how many of these 2006 27 have since been employed in the role for which they Disclosure of Information: Royal Family were retrained. [274056] Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Kevin Brennan [holding answer 8 May 2009]: Jobcentre Justice for what reasons (a) Cabinet papers and (b) Plus do not record outcomes for former employees of information in respect of the royal family are not particular employers who have found work or taken included in his proposals to replace the 30-year rule part in Government funded training. The costs of this with a 20-year rule for disclosure of official public would be prohibitive. documents. [280176] DWP’s rapid response service to support people facing redundancy; part of which offers focused training for Mr. Straw: Following the Dacre Review Report the those requiring training or certification; was provided Government will reduce the length of the 30-year rule to almost all Woolworths’ staff before store closure, in to 20 years. conjunction with on site benefits advice and support on Having considered the Review’s recommendations job search. carefully, it will also bring forward additional protections for some limited categories of information. The Government’s full response to the Report will be published JUSTICE by the summer. Consultants: Ministry of Justice Driving Offences: Convictions Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what budget his Department has set for expenditure on Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people in each age group in each external consultants in 2009-10. [281153] local authority area have been (a) charged and (b) Mr. Straw: The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) does not convicted of driving offences in each of the last five have a set overall budget for external consultancy. The years. [280786] Department recorded a full year spend for 2008-09 on consultancy of £54 million. This is a reduction from Claire Ward: Proceedings at magistrates courts for £56 million in 2007-09. Through a programme of efficiency motoring offences, by age group, in England and Wales, savings the Department is aiming to further reduce its by police force area, for the years 2003 to 2007 (latest dependency on consultancy spend which will result in available) can be viewed in table 1. an anticipated further reduction in cost. Charging data are not held by the Ministry of Justice, Departmental Lost Property thus proceedings at magistrates courts data have been provided in lieu. Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Findings of guilt at all courts for motoring offences, how many laptop computers belonging to (a) his by age group, in England and Wales, by police force Department and its predecessor and (b) its agencies area, for the years 2003 to 2007 (latest available) can be have been lost or stolen in the last five years. [281088] viewed in table 2. 1131W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1132W

It is not possible to further break down data to local Court proceedings data for 2008 will be available in authority area level as this data is not held by the the autumn of 2009. Ministry of Justice, thus police force area data have been provided in lieu.

Table 1: Proceedings at magistrates courts for motoring offences, by age group, in England and Wales, by police force area 2003-071, 2 2003 2004 2005 Police force area Under 21 21 and over Total Under 21 21 and over Total Under 21 21 and over Total

Avon and Somerset 12,849 77,009 89,858 12,280 75,233 87,513 10,601 64,307 74,908 Bedfordshire 5,119 24,840 29,959 3,643 18,500 22,143 3,750 25,271 29,021 Cambridgeshire 3,679 12,883 16,562 2,934 13,838 16,772 2,585 16,415 19,000 Cheshire 5,472 27,176 32,648 5,698 32,460 38,158 4,402 25,373 29,775 Cleveland 6,543 24,806 31,349 5,048 22,525 27,573 3,677 15,140 18,817 Cumbria 3,383 16,638 20,021 3,591 16,042 19,633 2,729 14,147 16,876 Derbyshire 4,172 29,321 33,493 4,222 28,869 33,091 3,113 24,294 27,407 Devon and 9,778 56,585 66,363 9,145 50,057 59,202 7,247 43,773 51,020 Cornwall Dorset 6,690 35,492 42,182 5,105 31,255 36,360 5,123 30,832 35,955 Durham 5,409 16,007 21,416 4,589 14,622 19,211 3,361 11,837 15,198 Essex 7,279 41,459 48,738 6,418 39,577 45,995 6,099 40,630 46,729 Gloucestershire 4,346 22,524 26,870 3,458 19,330 22,788 2,681 18,500 21,181 Greater Manchester 39,405 172,419 211,824 32,166 167,237 199,403 21,905 145,927 167,832 Hampshire 12,085 54,270 66,355 10,342 50,553 60,895 8,383 41,153 49,536 Hertfordshire 5,026 31,798 36,824 2,317 34,856 37,173 2,081 35,353 37,434 Humberside 6,653 27,476 34,129 6,741 29,076 35,817 5,279 26,083 31,362 Kent 9,904 42,651 52,555 11,732 51,853 63,585 9,163 43,175 52,338 Lancashire 14,985 70,984 85,969 11,777 55,388 67,165 12,667 56,488 69,155 Leicestershire 11,295 54,442 65,737 8,860 44,134 52,994 5,184 26,483 31,667 Lincolnshire 6,087 33,845 39,932 6,196 36,036 42,232 5,168 30,731 35,899 London, city of 940 13,002 13,942 649 17,433 18,082 572 13,112 13,684 Merseyside 14,662 46,580 61,242 14,961 48,615 63,576 10,848 38,073 48,921 Metropolitan Police 36,698 164,851 201,549 35,343 182,289 217,632 30,952 163,297 194,249 District Norfolk 5,032 22,989 28,021 4,023 19,797 23,820 3,605 18,988 22,593 Northamptonshire 4,286 23,461 27,747 5,567 27,946 33,513 3,614 22,800 26,414 Northumbria 12,168 50,995 63,163 9,464 50,421 59,885 8,961 50,026 58,987 North Yorkshire 4,169 15,674 19,843 3,879 17,617 21,496 3,283 14,535 17,818 Nottinghamshire 10,046 29,091 39,137 8,044 29,565 37,609 5,983 24,899 30,882 South Yorkshire 10,724 42,738 53,462 7,890 40,931 48,821 8,132 38,401 46,533 Staffordshire 7,283 29,739 37,022 7,067 35,722 42,789 6,465 34,364 40,829 Suffolk 6,134 28,336 34,470 5,743 31,179 36,922 4,541 26,393 30,934 Surrey 3,157 15,770 18,927 2,656 9,972 12,628 2,735 15,993 18,728 Sussex 4,925 27,881 32,806 3,260 13,540 16,800 3,402 24,233 27,635 Thames Valley 9,688 56,051 65,739 7,723 58,285 66,008 6,835 50,243 57,078 Warwickshire 3,250 16,564 19,814 3,048 18,661 21,709 2,272 15,518 17,790 West Mercia 5,776 32,814 38,590 2,957 26,318 29,275 3,282 32,483 35,765 West Midlands 32,199 150,203 182,402 26,980 155,270 182,250 20,646 137,374 158,020 West Yorkshire 21,176 94,169 115,345 25,258 137,639 162,897 16,598 115,030 131,628 Wiltshire 4,414 29,255 33,669 4,270 27,007 31,277 4,369 27,027 31,396 Dyfed Powys 3,412 19,343 22,755 2,315 15,657 17,972 2,899 15,853 18,752 Gwent 4,295 21,058 25,353 4,011 18,117 22,128 3,656 16,499 20,155 North Wales 5,535 29,787 35,322 5,129 29,443 34,572 3,653 22,687 26,340 South Wales 17,733 70,468 88,201 17,992 73,797 91,789 13,215 58,476 71,691

England and Wales 407,861 1,903,444 2,311,305 364,491 1,916,662 2,281,153 295,716 1,712,216 2,007,932

2006 2007 Police force area Under 21 21 and over Total Under 21 21 and over Total

Avon and Somerset 9,075 54,124 63,199 6,873 44,036 50,909 Bedfordshire 3,215 23,365 26,580 2,220 18,779 20,999 Cambridgeshire 2,930 21,143 24,073 1,846 16,752 18,598 Cheshire 3,501 21,377 24,878 2,877 23,708 26,585 Cleveland 3,398 13,218 16,616 2,070 10,331 12,401 Cumbria 2,501 13,952 16,453 2,281 12,347 14,628 1133W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1134W

2006 2007 Police force area Under 21 21 and over Total Under 21 21 and over Total

Derbyshire 2,421 18,412 20,833 2,170 19,105 21,275 Devon and Cornwall 7,132 40,036 47,168 5,104 29,753 34,857 Dorset 3,665 25,496 29,161 2,462 21,673 24,135 Durham 2,220 8,535 10,755 2,382 8,803 11,185 Essex 5,109 34,370 39,479 4,658 34,468 39,126 Gloucestershire 1,525 15,611 17,136 617 13,507 14,124 Greater Manchester 15,660 114,030 129,690 9,466 78,119 87,585 Hampshire 5,948 32,357 38,305 5,410 28,038 33,448 Hertfordshire 1,581 32,215 33,796 1,414 25,519 26,933 Humberside 4,572 20,463 25,035 2,978 15,285 18,263 Kent 6,886 35,033 41,919 4,250 29,124 33,374 Lancashire 9,512 53,869 63,381 7,617 45,249 52,866 Leicestershire 3,533 21,224 24,757 2,317 17,545 19,862 Lincolnshire 4,049 26,785 30,834 2,931 20,947 23,878 London, city of 421 11,064 11,485 441 14,773 15,214 Merseyside 5,281 28,147 33,428 3,848 29,442 33,290 Metropolitan Police District 25,192 148,252 173,444 20,468 133,648 154,116 Norfolk 3,442 19,654 23,096 3,041 14,994 18,035 Northamptonshire 2,772 20,497 23,269 1,436 11,856 13,292 Northumbria 7,647 43,546 51,193 5,716 37,636 43,352 North Yorkshire 2,557 11,825 14,382 2,315 12,942 15,257 Nottinghamshire 4,241 20,706 24,947 3,168 20,218 23,386 South Yorkshire 6,551 35,142 41,693 4,239 26,229 30,468 Staffordshire 4,980 28,332 33,312 3,647 25,392 29,039 Suffolk 3,221 22,646 25,867 2,393 17,855 20,248 Surrey 2,445 15,755 18,200 2,868 18,230 21,098 Sussex 3,433 23,671 27,104 2,979 23,852 26,831 Thames Valley 6,030 44,181 50,211 5,003 35,919 40,922 Warwickshire 1,875 13,165 15,040 1,577 10,370 11,947 West Mercia 2,538 32,096 34,634 3,149 26,753 29,902 West Midlands 15,281 109,199 124,480 11,579 86,076 97,655 West Yorkshire 11,508 91,545 103,053 9,733 67,620 77,353 Wiltshire 3,789 24,734 28,523 2,651 20,529 23,180 Dyfed Powys 2,259 13,620 15,879 1,898 11,438 13,336 Gwent 3,277 15,523 18,800 2,245 14,323 16,568 North Wales 3,546 24,300 27,846 2,559 17,932 20,491 South Wales 11,354 53,018 64,372 8,349 42,492 50,841

England and Wales 232,073 1,476,233 1,708,306 177,245 1,233,607 1,410,852 1 It is known that for some police force areas the reporting of court proceedings, in particular those relating to summary motoring offences, may be less than complete. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: OCJR E&A (Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Evidence and Analysis Unit), Ministry of Justice Table 2: Findings of guilt at all courts for motoring offences, by age group, in England and Wales, by police force area 2003-071, 2 2003 2004 2005 Police force area Under 21 21 and over Total Under 21 21 and over Total Under 21 21 and over Total

Avon and Somerset 7,888 45,390 53,278 7,471 45,642 53,113 6,461 37,442 43,903 Bedfordshire 2,714 14,341 17,055 2,051 9,394 11,445 1,971 14,802 16,773 Cambridgeshire 2,642 9,434 12,076 2,232 10,136 12,368 2,041 12,402 14,443 Cheshire 4,515 22,880 27,395 4,606 26,977 31,583 3,539 21,598 25,137 Cleveland 4,144 16,386 20,530 3,844 16,523 20,367 3,005 11,667 14,672 Cumbria 2,569 12,437 15,006 2,775 12,132 14,907 2,101 10,739 12,840 Derbyshire 3,368 23,291 26,659 3,442 23,394 26,836 2,551 19,907 22,458 Devon and 5,685 34,368 40,053 5,575 30,837 36,412 4,543 27,057 31,600 Cornwall Dorset 3,264 17,536 20,800 2,446 15,534 17,980 2,546 16,046 18,592 Durham 4,225 11,766 15,991 3,618 10,465 14,083 2,555 7,976 10,531 Essex 5,661 31,848 37,509 5,035 31,188 36,223 4,822 32,614 37,436 Gloucestershire 2,193 12,273 14,466 2,174 11,984 14,158 1,567 10,438 12,005 1135W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1136W

Table 2: Findings of guilt at all courts for motoring offences, by age group, in England and Wales, by police force area 2003-071, 2 2003 2004 2005 Police force area Under 21 21 and over Total Under 21 21 and over Total Under 21 21 and over Total

Greater Manchester 22,975 101,454 124,429 19,174 97,430 116,604 14,069 87,439 101,508 Hampshire 8,729 40,453 49,182 7,616 37,342 44,958 6,228 31,243 37,471 Hertfordshire 3,575 22,099 25,674 1,777 24,831 26,608 1,560 25,453 27,013 Humberside 5,013 20,116 25,129 5,166 20,771 25,937 4,256 18,903 23,159 Kent 6,640 30,646 37,286 7,582 35,310 42,892 6,276 31,531 37,807 Lancashire 10,081 47,358 57,439 7,689 36,112 43,801 8,034 35,487 43,521 Leicestershire 7,747 37,739 45,486 6,670 30,362 37,032 4,042 18,985 23,027 Lincolnshire 4,293 24,873 29,166 4,497 26,940 31,437 3,553 22,302 25,855 London, city of 595 7,866 8,461 339 7,860 8,199 425 10,433 10,858 Merseyside 10,488 33,539 44,027 10,274 33,923 44,197 7,919 27,663 35,582 Metropolitan Police 26,932 115,925 142,857 27,416 136,729 164,145 24,167 123,456 147,623 District Norfolk 3,445 16,970 20,415 2,958 15,213 18,171 2,571 14,849 17,420 Northamptonshire 2,776 17,100 19,876 3,706 20,166 23,872 2,313 16,472 18,785 Northumbria 8,769 36,116 44,885 7,080 37,449 44,529 6,949 37,206 44,155 North Yorkshire 2,576 9,279 11,855 2,420 10,627 13,047 2,239 9,682 11,921 Nottinghamshire 8,145 23,892 32,037 6,688 24,591 31,279 4,975 21,331 26,306 South Yorkshire 7,443 29,702 37,145 5,866 30,005 35,871 6,022 28,768 34,790 Staffordshire 5,183 20,841 26,024 5,266 24,130 29,396 4,721 23,163 27,884 Suffolk 3,319 14,348 17,667 3,278 15,663 18,941 2,679 14,717 17,396 Surrey 2,428 11,558 13,986 2,055 7,213 9,268 2,180 12,591 14,771 Sussex 3,529 18,379 21,908 2,537 8,742 11,279 2,673 18,015 20,688 Thames Valley 6,665 40,562 47,227 5,457 44,217 49,674 5,033 38,350 43,383 Warwickshire 2,333 12,600 14,933 2,514 14,849 17,363 1,892 12,686 14,578 West Mercia 4,226 23,444 27,670 2,340 18,115 20,455 2,566 24,526 27,092 West Midlands 20,651 93,245 113,896 18,301 101,760 120,061 14,035 91,532 105,567 West Yorkshire 13,404 57,970 71,374 15,457 80,990 96,447 10,434 67,913 78,347 Wiltshire 2,426 16,720 19,146 2,435 15,709 18,144 2,297 15,127 17,424 Dyfed Powys 2,283 12,701 14,984 1,612 10,504 12,116 1,970 10,580 12,550 Gwent 3,569 15,876 19,445 3,393 13,413 16,806 3,000 12,535 15,535 North Wales 3,594 20,356 23,950 3,687 21,450 25,137 2,743 17,445 20,188 South Wales 10,422 40,777 51,199 10,324 42,009 52,333 7,568 33,773 41,341 England and Wales 273,122 1,266,454 1,539,576 250,843 1,288,631 1,539,474 207,091 1,176,844 1,383,935

2006 2007 Police force area Under 21 21 and over Total Under 21 21 and over Total

Avon and Somerset 5,941 33,549 39,490 4,545 27,524 32,069 Bedfordshire 1,858 14,563 16,421 1,458 13,143 14,601 Cambridgeshire 2,219 15,868 18,087 1,569 13,267 14,836 Cheshire 2,877 17,780 20,657 2,378 19,859 22,237 Cleveland 2,880 10,195 13,075 1,765 7,924 9,689 Cumbria 1,949 10,683 12,632 1,857 9,980 11,837 Derbyshire 2,085 15,434 17,519 1,845 16,646 18,491 Devon and Cornwall 4,553 23,943 28,496 3,618 20,582 24,200 Dorset 1,819 13,839 15,658 1,557 11,278 12,835 Durham 1,733 6,086 7,819 1,942 6,783 8,725 Essex 4,291 28,308 32,599 3,941 28,866 32,807 Gloucestershire 960 10,046 11,006 418 9,578 9,996 Greater Manchester 10,929 74,539 85,468 7,349 56,232 63,581 Hampshire 4,720 25,462 30,182 4,646 23,508 28,154 Hertfordshire 1,261 23,334 24,595 1,125 18,652 19,777 Humberside 3,779 15,893 19,672 2,500 11,638 14,138 Kent 5,336 27,635 32,971 3,642 24,370 28,012 Lancashire 6,041 33,819 39,860 5,020 30,540 35,560 Leicestershire 2,787 15,940 18,727 1,942 12,893 14,835 Lincolnshire 2,983 20,395 23,378 2,164 16,357 18,521 London, city of 271 7,038 7,309 287 8,656 8,943 Merseyside 4,113 22,491 26,604 3,126 23,286 26,412 Metropolitan Police District 20,604 118,598 139,202 17,081 110,879 127,960 Norfolk 2,519 15,344 17,863 2,191 11,584 13,775 1137W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1138W

2006 2007 Police force area Under 21 21 and over Total Under 21 21 and over Total

Northamptonshire 1,763 14,669 16,432 1,317 11,217 12,534 Northumbria 6,142 33,680 39,822 4,679 29,554 34,233 North Yorkshire 1,855 8,268 10,123 1,755 9,591 11,346 Nottinghamshire 3,588 17,701 21,289 2,677 17,441 20,118 South Yorkshire 5,000 27,121 32,121 3,437 21,470 24,907 Staffordshire 3,774 20,064 23,838 2,989 18,284 21,273 Suffolk 2,137 13,184 15,321 1,787 11,884 13,671 Surrey 1,950 12,919 14,869 2,286 14,703 16,989 Sussex 2,676 18,134 20,810 2,451 18,738 21,189 Thames Valley 4,591 34,812 39,403 3,990 28,653 32,643 Warwickshire 1,590 10,747 12,337 1,347 8,516 9,863 West Mercia 2,087 24,689 26,776 2,515 20,350 22,865 West Midlands 10,516 72,523 83,039 7,920 57,784 65,704 West Yorkshire 7,337 55,512 62,849 6,323 42,448 48,771 Wiltshire 2,102 14,228 16,330 1,533 12,550 14,083 Dyfed Powys 1,545 9,066 10,611 1,416 7,833 9,249 Gwent 2,666 12,111 14,777 1,914 10,553 12,467 North Wales 2,693 18,937 21,630 1,904 13,950 15,854 South Wales 6,472 30,380 36,852 4,915 25,526 30,441 England and Wales 168,992 1,049,527 1,218,519 135,121 915,070 1,050,191 1 It is known that for some police force areas the reporting of court proceedings, in particular those relating to summary motoring offences, may be less than complete. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: OCJR E&A (Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Evidence and Analysis Unit), Ministry of Justice

Furniture: Ministry of Justice National Offender Management Service: Manpower

Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much his Department spent on furniture in how many National Offender Management Service 2008-09. [279264] employees are viewed as surplus. [280831]

Mr. Straw: The expenditure on furniture by the Ministry Mr. Straw: As at 15 June 2009 there were 201 individual in the financial year 2008-09 is listed in the following employees registered as surplus in the National Offender table. Management Service.

£ Offences against Children: Convictions Ministry of Justice HQ 6,098,821 HM Courts Service 1,508,010 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Tribunals Service 91,657 Justice how many people were (a) prosecuted for and Office of the Public Guardian 14,000 (b) convicted of sexual offences against children in National Offenders Management 445,430 each year since 1997. [280782] Service Total 8,157,918 Claire Ward: The number of persons proceeded against The figure for the National Offender Management at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for Service does not include the 42 local probation boards sexual offences against children, 1997 to 2007 is shown and trusts. Information on the costs of furniture is held in tables 1 and 2. locally and can be collated only at disproportionate The Sexual Offences Act 2003 significantly modernised cost. and strengthened the laws on sexual offences in England Furniture is typically used for a period of 20 years and Wales to provide extra protection to children .from within the Department. Major acquisitions usually occur sexual exploitation. This makes direct comparisons with only where a new building is taken on following the previous legislation very difficult. Many new offences expiry of building leases. The majority of headquarters created by the Act will not have a direct equivalent expenditure relates to the move to a new headquarters under the old legislation. Table 1 covers offences under building as part of a major rationalisation of the Ministry’s the Sexual Offences Act 1956, with table 2 covering London estate. offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003. The reduction in the number of buildings occupied in These data are on the principal offence basis. The central London, increased capacity of the building and figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to move to flexible workspace in 102 Petty France will in persons for whom these offences were the principal future save an estimated £10 million a year. This move offence for which they were dealt with. When a defendant will enable more effective working and the reduction of has been found guilty of two or more offences, the the size and cost of the London estate. offence selected is the one for which the heaviest penalty 1139W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1140W is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two Court proceedings data for 2008 will be available in or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for the autumn of 2009. which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe.

Table 1: Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts of sexual offences against persons aged under 18 years, England and Wales 1997 to 2003, under the Sexual Offences Act 19561, 2, 3, 4 1997 1998 1999 2000 Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Offence class against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty

Buggery with a person aged 142 91 143 80 163 70 133 64 under 16 Indecent assault on a male 373 363 460 342 432 337 351 299 person under 16 Gross indecency by a male with a 33 19 23 18 19 10 11 11 male aged under 18 Rape, attempted rape of a male 716 279 810 291 846 335 788 264 or female aged under 16 Indecent assault on a female 1,639 1,627 1,805 1,505 1,818 1,491 1,555 1,317 under 16 Unlawful sexual intercourse with 40 44 40 55 32 52 40 53 girl under 13 Unlawful sexual intercourse with 153 199 171 225 169 189 167 214 girl under 16 Incest offences with persons 19 23 15 29 17 23 16 28 under 16 Procuration of persons aged 986924—4 under 18 Gross indecency with children 172 167 325 214 330 217 283 193 aged under 14 Total 3,296 2,820 3,798 2,768 3,828 2,728 3,344 2,447

2001 2002 2003 Proceeded Proceeded Proceeded Offence class against Found guilty against Found guilty against Found guilty

Buggery with a person aged under 16 120 74 80 60 59 47 Indecent assault on a male person under 391 271 384 293 419 264 16 Gross indecency by a male with a male 703510 aged under 18 Rape, attempted rape of a male or 1,112 241 1,288 292 1,265 326 female aged under 16 Indecent assault on a female under 16 1,792 1,292 1,952 1,332 1,956 1,206 Unlawful sexual intercourse with girl 53 54 43 47 71 49 under 13 Unlawful sexual intercourse with girl 178 214 192 228 185 248 under 16 Incest offences with persons under 16 20 34 17 39 8 29 Procuration of persons aged under 18 2 43500 Gross indecency with children aged 410 249 456 261 429 281 under 14 Total 4,085 2,433 4,418 2,562 4,393 2,450 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 The numbers found guilty may exceed those proceeded against in table 1, as it may be the case that the proceedings in the magistrates court took place in the preceding year to the defendant being found guilty at the Crown court in the following year, or the defendant was found guilty for a different offence to the original offence proceeded against. 4 Covers offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 which identify the victim as a minor at the time the offences was committed. Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis Unit, Ministry of Justice Table 2: Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts of sexual offences against persons aged under 18 years, England and Wales 2004 to 2007, under the Sexual Offences Act 20031, 2, 3, 4 20045 2005 2006 2007 Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Offence class against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty

Sexual assault of a male child 27 9 119 65 118 63 130 77 aged under 13 Rape, attempted rape of a male 1,208 358 1,200 394 1,100 416 1,020 434 or female aged under 13 or under 16 1141W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1142W

Table 2: Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts of sexual offences against persons aged under 18 years, England and Wales 2004 to 2007, under the Sexual Offences Act 20031, 2, 3, 4 20045 2005 2006 2007 Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Offence class against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty

Sexual assault of a female child 162 41 495 212 531 315 582 342 aged under 13 Sexual activity with a male or 97 30 304 123 293 181 337 206 female child aged under 13 Sexual activity with a male or 182 74 676 456 697 644 692 620 female aged under 16 Familial sexual offences of a 31 10 99 54 108 74 128 91 male or female child aged under 13 Abuse of children aged under 18 18 2 35 8 29 17 43 27 through prostitution and pornography Abuse of trust sexual offences 5 3 12 14 20 18 17 18 against a child aged under 18 Meeting a male or female aged 9 3 28 25 43 36 41 51 under 16 following sexual grooming Total 1,739 530 2,968 1,351 2,939 1,764 2,990 1,866 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 The numbers found guilty may exceed those proceeded against in table 1, as it may be the case that the proceedings in the magistrates court took place in the preceding year to the defendant being found guilty at the Crown court in the following year, or the defendant was found guilty for a different offence to the original offence proceeded against. 4 Covers offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 which identify the victim as a minor at the time the offences was committed. 5 Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force on 1 May 2004. Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis Unit, Ministry of Justice

Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for created by the Act will not have a direct equivalent Justice how many people in each region of England under the old legislation. Table 1 covers offences under and Wales were (a) prosecuted for and (b) convicted the Sexual Offences Act 1956, with table 2 covering on charges relating to having sexual intercourse with an offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003. underage person in each year since 1997. [280783] These data are on the principal offence basis. The Claire Ward: The number of persons proceeded against figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for persons for whom these offences were the principal offences relating to having sexual intercourse with an offence for which they were dealt with. When a defendant underage person, by region, 1997 to 2007 is shown in has been found guilty of two or more offences, the tables 1 and 2. offence selected is the one for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two The Sexual Offences Act 2003 significantly modernised or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for and strengthened the laws on sexual offences in England which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. and Wales to provide extra protection to children from sexual exploitation. This makes direct comparisons with Court proceedings data for 2008 will be available in previous legislation very difficult. Many new offences the autumn of 2009.

Table 1: Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for offences relating to having sexual intercourse with an underage person, by region, England and Wales 1997 to 2003, under the Sexual Offences Act 1956 1, 2, 3

1997 1998 1999 2000

Proceeded Proceeded Proceeded Proceeded Region against Found guilty against Found guilty against Found guilty against Found guilty

NorthEast 6241885088438430

North West 132 85 149 82 136 98 135 82

Yorkshire and the Humber 134 50 143 74 168 72 149 80

East Midlands 100 58 103 51 113 61 105 43

West Midlands 92 72 103 65 94 55 96 53

East of England 83 43 97 51 123 54 88 43

London 68 43 105 57 96 46 136 45

South East 108 70 123 84 119 72 117 79

South West 109 48 97 47 98 44 89 57 1143W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1144W

Table 1: Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for offences relating to having sexual intercourse with an underage person, by region, England and Wales 1997 to 2003, under the Sexual Offences Act 1956 1, 2, 3 1997 1998 1999 2000 Proceeded Proceeded Proceeded Proceeded Region against Found guilty against Found guilty against Found guilty against Found guilty

Wales 84 46 93 35 106 50 80 49 England and Wales 972 556 1,101 596 1,141 595 1,079 561

2001 2002 2003 Region Proceeded against Found guilty Proceeded against Found guilty Proceeded against Found guilty

NorthEast804678428148 North West 205 85 217 91 206 88 Yorkshire and the Humber 172 58 164 68 150 63 East Midlands 113 55 106 39 108 51 West Midlands 154 60 184 64 166 79 East of England 100 47 101 48 95 49 London 172 47 235 56 285 73 South East 154 64 189 87 172 74 South West 115 39 109 40 104 62 Wales 112 45 127 48 99 40 England and Wales 1,377 546 1,510 583 1,466 627 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with.Whena defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed fortwoor more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 1997 to 2003 figures include the following offences under the Sexual Offences Act 1956: —Rape of a person under 16 —Unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl under 13 —Unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl under 16 —Buggery with a person under 16 Source: Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Ministry of Justice

Table 2: Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for offences relating to having sexual intercourse with an underage person, by region, England and Wales 2004-07, under the Sexual Offences Act 20031, 2, 3 20044 2005 2006 2007 Proceeded Proceeded Proceeded Proceeded Region against Found guilty against Found guilty against Found guilty against Found guilty

NorthEast 5020792879467149 North West 176 49 199 110 199 93 204 114 Yorkshire and the Humber 123 56 155 86 130 90 121 95 East Midlands 109 31 147 61 118 65 118 77 West Midlands 137 33 158 76 158 105 148 90 East of England 80 21 122 55 97 79 80 59 London 193 38 207 36 197 55 164 58 South East 115 40 162 81 138 97 150 102 South West 75 30 106 50 98 81 98 69 Wales 112 34 84 37 80 49 88 34

England and Wales 1,170 352 1,419 620 1,294 760 1,242 747 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed fortwoor more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 2004 to 2007 figures include the following offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003: —Rape of a child under 13 —Rape of a person under 16 —Sexual Activity with a child (where penetration is involved) 4 Act came into force on 1 May 2004. Source: Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Ministry of Justice

Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Claire Ward: The number of persons proceeded against Justice how many people were prosecuted for sexual at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for offences against those under the age of 18 years in (a) sexual offences against children, 2006 and 2007 can be 2006, (b) 2007 and (c) 2008; and how many such viewed in table. prosecutions resulted in a conviction. [281879] Data provided are for those statutes where the age of the victim is specified. These data are on the principal 1145W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1146W offence basis. The figures given in the table on court is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty were the principal offence for which they were dealt is the most severe. with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences, the offence selected is the one for which Court proceedings data for 2008 will be available in the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal the autumn of 2009.

Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts of sexual offences against persons aged under 18 years, England and Wales 2006 and 20071, 2, 3, 4 2006 2007 Proceeded Proceeded Offence class against Found guilty against Found guilty

Sexual assault of a male child aged under 13 118 63 130 77 Rape, attempted rape of a male or female aged under 13 or under 16 1,100 416 1,020 434 Sexual assault of a female child aged under 13 531 315 582 342 Sexual activity with a male or female child aged under 13 293 181 337 206 Sexual activity with a male or female aged under 16 697 644 692 620 Familial sexual offences of a male or female child aged under 13 108 74 128 91 Abuse of children aged under 18 through prostitution and pornography 29 17 43 27 Abuse of trust sexual offences against a child aged under 18 20 18 17 18 Meeting a male or female aged under 16 following sexual grooming 43 36 41 51 Total 2,939 1,764 2,990 1,866 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 The numbers found guilty may exceed those proceeded against in table 1, as it may be the case that the proceedings in the magistrates court took place in the preceding year to the defendant being found guilty at the Crown court in the following year, or the defendant was found guilty for a different offence to the original offence proceeded against. 4 Covers offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 which identify the victim as a minor at the time the offences was committed. Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis Unit, Ministry of Justice

Prime Ministers Information on the number of prisoners who may have been paid a discharge grant in error, having spent Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 14 days or less in custody, is not held centrally and if he will consult on the merits of direct elections to the could be obtained only by examining the individual Office of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom as records of discharged prisoners at disproportionate cost. part of his programme for constitutional renewal; and if he will make a statement. [281249] Prisons: Barking and Dagenham

Mr. Straw: No, Sir. Jon Cruddas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) what his estimate is of the cost of constructing a Prisoners’ Discharge Grants new prison at Beam Park West; [275825] (2) whether he has made arrangements to deal with Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the eventuality that a private contractor is unable to how many prisoners who had been in custody for less provide a prison on the Beam Park West site. [275962] than 14 days received discharge grants upon release in each of the last 10 years for which figures are available; and how many days the offender had spent in custody Mr. Straw: The exact cost of constructing the proposed in each case. [281956] prison at Beam Park West has yet to be determined. However, it is estimated that the capital cost of constructing Maria Eagle: Prison Service Order (PSO) 6400 five 1,500 place prisons at 2008-09 prices is around £1.2 (Discharge) stipulates that, to be eligible for a discharge billion, excluding VAT and site purchase costs. grant, prisoners must have been given a custodial sentence We will consider the options available to us in the of more than 14 days. event we are unable to find a suitable contractor to Following the introduction of the Criminal Justice build the proposed prison. Act 1991, prisoners serving sentences of one year or less were to be released at the halfway point of their sentence. Probation Officers: Manpower The National Offender Management Service has recently become aware that, in the light of this, PSO 6400 was not sufficiently clear and its original intention has been Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice open to possible misinterpretation. Prison Service how many vacant probation officer positions there are Instruction (PSI) 21/2009, issued on 9 June 2009, clarifies in each region. [280832] that a prisoner must serve a sentence of which the custodial period is more than 14 days to be eligible for a Mr. Straw: The following table shows the number of discharge grant. vacant Probation Officer positions in each of the regions: 1147W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1148W

Vacant probation officer Probation officers1 Probation service positions1,2,3,4 officers2

North East 3.0 Q33 7119.54 6221.76 North West 11.0 1 Includes: senior probation officers, senior practitioners, probation Yorkshire and Humberside 11.0 officers and practice development assessors. 2 Includes: probation services officers and treatment managers. East Midlands 14.20 3 The information provided has yet to be published and may therefore West Midlands 10.80 be subject to minor amendment upon publication. East of England 6.40 Note: London 2.0 Figures are shown as full-time equivalents. South East 15.81 Figures for Q4 2007-08 and 2008-09 are currently South West 24.43 unavailable. Wales 13.60 Probation: Vacancies 1 Figures shown as FTE as at 30 June 2007 and can be found in Issue 13 of the Workforce Information Report. 2 Includes: Senior Probation Officers, Probation Officers, Practice Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Development Assessors and Senior Practitioners. how many unfilled posts there are in each region in the 3 Vacancies are defined as “active vacancies”, which includes any post Probation Service. [280836] that is being actively recruited into. 4 Due to the HR System in use, Hampshire Probation Area (South East Region), Greater Manchester Probation Area (North West Region) Mr. Straw: The following table shows the number of and West Midlands Probation Area (West Midlands Region) have vacant post in each of the regions. been unable to provide any vacancy figures and are excluded from this return. Active vacancies1, 2, 3

North East 31.84 Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice North West 34.65 how many (a) qualified probation officers and (b) Yorkshire and Humberside 59.15 Probation Service officers have been employed by the East Midlands 55.37 Probation Service in each quarter since the start of West Midlands 35.71 2003. [280841] East of England 37.18 London 142.08 South East 72.78 Mr. Straw: The following table shows the number of South West 66.15 probation officers and probation service officers in post Wales 12.10 in each quarter since the start of 2003. 1 Figures shown as FTE as at 30 June 2007 and can be found in issue 13 of the Workforce Information Report. 1 Probation officers Probation service 2 Vacancies are defined as ‘active vacancies’, which includes any post 2 officers that is being actively recruited into. 3 Due to the HR system in use, Hampshire probation area (South East 2003-04 region), Greater Manchester probation area (North West region) and Q1 5831.10 4752.40 West Midlands probation area (West Midlands region) have been Q2 5937.80 5204.30 unable to provide any vacancy figures and are excluded from this return. Q3 6271.50 5386.86 Q4 6285.4 5416.80 Release on Licence

2004-05 Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many prisoners were released on temporary Q1 6257.32 5467.77 licence in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09. [279262] Q2 6376.48 5511.66 Q3 6584.94 5623.86 Mr. Straw: Records are not held of the number of Q4 6566.63 5849.99 prisoners granted temporary release. However, the numbers of temporary release licenses issued in 2007-08 was 2005-06 441,167. This figure is the total of all individual licences Q1 6468.44 5968.35 issued, as some prisoners will be granted temporary Q2 6529.41 6089.00 release on a number of occasions and as a result will be Q3 6894.36 6235.17 issued with multiple licences over the course of a year. Q4 6515.35 6337.64 The 2008-09 figure will be published in the Offender Management Caseload Statistics 2008 at the end of July 2009. The publication of this bulletin has been pre- 2006-07 announced on the Ministry of Justice and the United Q1 6855.26 6645.30 Kingdom Statistics Authority websites. Q2 6878.67 6552.00 Release on temporary licence is the mechanism that Q3 7209.55 6502.71 enables prisoners to participate in necessary activities, Q4 7149.26 6506.78 outside of the prison establishment, that directly contribute to their resettlement into the community and their 2007-08 development of a purposeful law abiding life. Prisoners Q1 7007.75 6430.58 are not granted temporary release unless they meet the Q23 6976.30 6304.56 eligibility criteria and pass a stringent risk assessment. 1149W Written Answers25 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1150W

Young Offenders: Crimes of Violence Offenders aged over 21 and under 21 sentenced under sections 18,20 and 47 of Offences Against the Persons Act 1861,2007 Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Offender aged 21 and Offender aged under (1) what the average sentence for a (a) section 18 and over 21 (b) section 20 grievous bodily harm offence for those Absolute discharge 16 aged (i) 21 years and over and (ii) under 21 years old Conditional discharge 413 was in 2007-08; [281309] (2) what the average sentence for those over the age Fine 359 of 21 years convicted of a section 47 offence was in Community sentence 3,068 2007-08. [281311] Fully suspended sentence 3,086 Claire Ward: The available data are shown in the Immediate custody 2,821 following table. Data for 2008 will not be available until Otherwise dealt with 355 Sentencing Statistics 2008 is published later in the year. ACSL (months) 11.5 Offenders aged over 21 and under 21 sentenced under sections 18,20 and 47 of 1 Wounding with intent to do grievous bodily harm Offences Against the Persons Act 1861,2007 2 Malicious wounding, racially aggravated malicious wounding, religiously Offender aged 21 and Offender aged under aggravated malicious wounding, racially or religiously aggravated malicious over 21 wounding 3 Assault occasioning actual bodily harm, racially aggravated assault occasioning actual bodily harm, religiously aggravated assault occasioning Section 181 actual bodily harm, racially or religiously aggravated assault occasioning Total number sentenced 1,107 627 actual bodily harm, Notes: Absolute discharge 1 2 ACSL excludes indeterminate sentences. Conditional discharge 0 0 These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. Fine 2 2 Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording Community sentence 20 65 system. Fully suspended sentence 18 18 Source: Immediate custody 1,024 524 OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice Otherwise dealt with 42 16 Number of indeterminate 304 95 sentences The table shows the sentences handed down to and ACSL (months) for 47.3 37.7 the average custodial sentence length (ACSL) for determinate sentences determinate sentences for those aged 21 and over under sections 18, section 20 and 47 of the Offences Section 202 Against the Person Act 1861 for 2007. The table also Total number sentenced 2,955 1.592 shows the sentences handed down to and the ACSL for Absolute discharge 2 2 offenders aged under 21, sentenced under sections 18 Conditional discharge 20 14 and 20 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 for Fine 19 14 2007. Also included is the number of indeterminate Community sentence 372 622 sentences for the section 18 offences. These data are Fully suspended sentence 975 218 based on the offences under section 18, section 20 and Immediate custody 1492 692 section 47, where such offences were the principal offences Otherwise dealt with 75 30 for which the offender was sentenced. Where an offender ACSL (months) 20.1 16.1 has been sentenced for more than one offence the principal offence is the one for which the heaviest sentence was imposed, where the same sentence has been imposed 3 Section 47 for two or more offences the principal offence is the one Total number sentenced 10,118 for which the statutory maximum is most severe. ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 25 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 919 TRANSPORT—continued A14 (Kettering)...... 927 Violence Against Public Transport Staff ...... 921 Community Rail Projects (East Midlands)...... 928 Cross-Border Transport Networks...... 920 WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 933 Exeter Airport...... 919 Age Discrimination...... 936 Lifeline Flights...... 922 Equality Bill...... 937 Motorway Congestion ...... 925 Equality Bill...... 938 Rail Services (London/South Wales)...... 924 Female Entrepreneurs ...... 935 Street Works...... 929 Gender Pay Gap ...... 933 Topical Questions ...... 930 Gender Pay Gap ...... 938 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 25 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 65WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 69WS Firebuy Ltd...... 65WS Proceeds of Crime Act 2002...... 69WS Youth Crime Action Plan...... 69WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 66WS JUSTICE...... 70WS EU Energy Council...... 66WS Freedom of Information Act 2000 ...... 70WS Road to Copenhagen (Public Awareness)...... 66WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 70WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL National Security Strategy ...... 70WS AFFAIRS...... 67WS Centre for Environment, Fisheries and TRANSPORT ...... 71WS Aquaculture Sciences (Performance Targets) ..... 67WS Eurostar...... 71WS Former Central Science Laboratory (Report and Accounts) ...... 69WS TREASURY ...... 65WS Pitt Review (Progress Report) ...... 68WS Double Taxation Convention (United Kingdom UK Sustainable Development Commission ...... 67WS and Belgium) ...... 65WS PETITIONS

Thursday 25 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 11P European Working Time Directive (Fire Fighters) ...... 11P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 24 June 2009—[Continued.]

Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 1032W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Carbon Emissions...... 1032W Fuel Poverty...... 1037W Carbon Emissions: Government Departments...... 1032W Hartlepool Power Station...... 1038W Carbon Emissions: Housing...... 1033W Longannet Power Station...... 1038W Carbon Emissions: Research...... 1034W Low Carbon Buildings Programme...... 1038W Community Energy Savings Programme...... 1034W Natural Gas: Russia...... 1039W Departmental Energy...... 1035W Nuclear Power Stations: Apprentices ...... 1039W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 1035W Renewable Energy...... 1040W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 1035W Renewable Energy: Coventry ...... 1041W Departmental Rail Travel...... 1035W Renewable Energy: Pembrokeshire...... 1041W Energy: Billing ...... 1036W Renewable Energy: Public Consultation...... 1042W Energy: Conservation...... 1036W Solar Power...... 1042W Energy: Domestic Appliances ...... 1036W Solar Power: East of England ...... 1042W Energy Supply...... 1036W Vesta ...... 1044W EU Emissions Trading Scheme ...... 1037W Wind Power: South Downs ...... 1045W Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued HEALTH—continued Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 1046W Nurses...... 1017W Nutrition...... 1017W HEALTH...... 1003W Occupational Health...... 1018W Alcoholic Drinks: Consumption...... 1003W Patient Choice Schemes: Expenditure...... 1018W Audio Equipment: Health Hazards ...... 1004W Sick Leave: Yorkshire ...... 1019W Breast Cancer: Males...... 1004W Social Services: Learning Disability...... 1019W Cancer: Surgery ...... 1005W Swine Flu: Medical Treatments ...... 1019W Chiropractic: Complaints ...... 1005W Teenage Pregnancy: Milton Keynes...... 1019W Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence ...... 1005W Thrombosis...... 1020W Dengue Fever...... 1005W Departmental Energy ...... 1006W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1021W Departmental Internet ...... 1007W Cabinet: Glasgow...... 1021W Departmental Location ...... 1008W Child Benefit: Lancashire ...... 1031W Departmental Work Experience...... 1009W Children: Maintenance ...... 1021W Elderly: Social Services ...... 1009W Council Tax Benefit: Greater Manchester ...... 1022W Fractures...... 1009W Departmental Billing ...... 1022W Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements...... 1010W Departmental Data Protection ...... 1022W Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements...... 1010W Departmental Electricity...... 1023W Hospitals...... 1011W Departmental Internet ...... 1024W Hospitals: Admissions ...... 1011W Departmental Press: Subscriptions ...... 1026W Infant Foods ...... 1013W Departmental Telephone Services...... 1026W Learning Disability ...... 1013W Disability Discrimination Act 2005 ...... 1027W Local Involvement Networks...... 1014W Future Jobs Fund ...... 1028W Malnutrition ...... 1015W Health and Safety Executive...... 1028W Malnutrition: Screening...... 1016W Motability...... 1029W Mental Health Services: Children...... 1016W New Deal Schemes ...... 1029W NHS: Cambridgeshire ...... 1017W New Deal Schemes: Hertfordshire...... 1030W NHS Connecting for Health: Expenditure ...... 1016W Social Fund ...... 1030W NHS Innovation Expo...... 1017W Unemployment: Older Workers ...... 1031W WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 25 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1123W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Apprentices...... 1123W continued Council for Science and Technology ...... 1125W Local Government: Termination of Employment .. 1108W Electric Vehicles ...... 1125W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 1108W Fuels: Prices...... 1126W Non-Domestic Rates: Cambridgeshire...... 1109W Overseas Students: USA ...... 1126W Police: Council Tax ...... 1109W Rover Group ...... 1126W Regional Planning and Development: Finance ...... 1109W Train to Gain Programme ...... 1127W Regional Planning and Development: Transport ... 1109W Vocational Training...... 1127W Right to Buy Scheme ...... 1110W Woolworths: Vocational Training...... 1129W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1051W CABINET OFFICE...... 1102W Departmental Billing ...... 1051W Age ...... 1102W Departmental Location...... 1052W Carbon Emissions: Departmental Coordination.... 1102W Departmental Lost Property ...... 1052W Lord Paul of Marylebone ...... 1103W Departmental Nurseries...... 1052W Public Sector: Pay ...... 1103W Departmental Work Experience...... 1052W Rugby: Drugs...... 1052W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 1103W Taking Part Survey ...... 1053W Schools: Sports ...... 1103W DEFENCE...... 1065W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1103W Armed Forces: Deployment ...... 1065W Community Development...... 1103W Armed Forces: Pay...... 1065W Demos...... 1104W Armed Forces: Sick Leave...... 1066W Departmental Billing ...... 1104W Defence: Procurement...... 1067W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 1105W EC Law...... 1069W Departmental Electricity...... 1105W Departmental Energy...... 1106W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 1054W Departmental Waste ...... 1106W Postal Votes...... 1054W Departmental Water ...... 1106W Eco-towns ...... 1107W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1110W Empty Housing: Milton Keynes ...... 1107W Carbon Sequestration: Algae ...... 1110W Fires: Smoking...... 1107W Coal Health Compensation Scheme...... 1110W Housing: Finance...... 1107W Energy: Billing ...... 1111W Housing: Low Incomes ...... 1108W Energy: Prices ...... 1111W Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued River Severn: Tidal Power...... 1111W Anti-Terrorism Control Orders ...... 1048W Community Policing ...... 1048W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Data Protection Act 1998...... 1048W AFFAIRS...... 1079W DNA: Databases...... 1049W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 1079W Entry Clearances...... 1049W Agriculture: Test Valley...... 1080W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 1049W Agriculture: Waste Disposal...... 1080W Police Community Support Officers: Clothing...... 1050W Central Science Laboratory: Consultants...... 1081W Police: Plymouth ...... 1050W Dairy Farming: Government Assistance ...... 1081W Police: Procurement ...... 1050W Departmental Correspondence ...... 1082W Departmental Public Consultation...... 1082W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1097W Floods: Cabinet Committees...... 1087W Afghanistan: Children...... 1097W Floods: Canvey Island ...... 1087W Africa: Females...... 1097W Floods: Peterborough ...... 1088W Burma: Armed Conflict ...... 1098W Forests ...... 1088W Burma: Overseas Aid ...... 1098W Livestock ...... 1088W Cambodia: Overseas Aid ...... 1099W Marine and Coastal Access Bill ...... 1088W Departmental Drinking Water ...... 1099W Members: Correspondence ...... 1089W Departmental Flags ...... 1099W Ministers: Working Hours ...... 1089W Departmental Official Cars...... 1099W River Humber...... 1089W Development Aid...... 1100W Rural Payments Agency: Complaints...... 1090W Pakistan: International Assistance ...... 1100W Sheep ...... 1090W Pakistan: Overseas Aid ...... 1101W Waste Disposal: Private Finance Initiative ...... 1097W Sri Lanka: Children ...... 1101W Uganda: Maternity Services...... 1102W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1069W Cameroon: Prisoners...... 1069W JUSTICE...... 1129W Commonweatlh...... 1070W Consultants: Ministry of Justice ...... 1129W Departmental Nurseries...... 1070W Departmental Lost Property ...... 1129W European Commission...... 1071W Disclosure of Information: Royal Family...... 1130W Georgia: International Assistance ...... 1071W Driving Offences: Convictions ...... 1130W Indonesia ...... 1071W Furniture: Ministry of Justice ...... 1137W Iran: Internet ...... 1072W National Offender Management Service: Middle East: Armed Conflict...... 1072W Manpower ...... 1138W Nuclear Weapons...... 1073W Offences against Children: Convictions...... 1138W Nuclear Weapons: Arms Control ...... 1073W Prime Ministers...... 1145W Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Prisoners’ Discharge Grants...... 1145W Europe ...... 1073W Prisons: Barking and Dagenham...... 1146W Pakistan: Politics and Government ...... 1074W Probation Officers: Manpower...... 1146W Sri Lanka ...... 1074W Probation: Vacancies...... 1148W Sudan: Elections ...... 1074W Release on Licence ...... 1148W Tamils ...... 1075W Young Offenders: Crimes of Violence ...... 1149W USA...... 1075W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1053W HEALTH...... 1112W Antisocial Behaviour Orders ...... 1053W Chiropractic...... 1112W Northern Ireland Compensation Agency: Departmental Food...... 1112W Manpower ...... 1054W Departmental Lost Property ...... 1114W Northern Ireland Forensic Science Agency: Drugs: Patients...... 1114W Manpower ...... 1054W General Practitioners ...... 1114W Hospital Beds...... 1114W OLYMPICS ...... 1053W Hospitals: Fires...... 1117W Olympic Games 2012: Finance...... 1053W Hospitals: Information and Communications Technology ...... 1117W TRANSPORT ...... 1075W In Vitro Fertilisation ...... 1117W Concessionary Travel: Jobseekers...... 1077W Muscular Dystrophy ...... 1118W Departmental Internet ...... 1077W National Child Measurement Programme ...... 1118W Heathrow Airport ...... 1075W NHS: Drugs...... 1119W London City Airport ...... 1077W NHS: Fires...... 1120W NHS Facilities: Transport Requirements...... 1077W NHS: Gypsies ...... 1120W Overcrowding: Rail Network ...... 1076W NHS: Management Consultants ...... 1120W Ports: Non-domestic Rates...... 1078W NHS: Private Sector...... 1120W Rail Network: Capacity ...... 1075W Patient Choice Schemes ...... 1122W Railways: Franchises ...... 1078W Prescription Drugs...... 1121W Railways: Greater London ...... 1078W Prescriptions: Fees and Charges...... 1121W Railways: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 1079W Stem Cells: Research ...... 1122W Satellite Navigation Devices...... 1075W Strokes: Bexley...... 1124W Speed Limits ...... 1076W Uninsured Drivers ...... 1076W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1047W Alcoholic Drinks: Retail Trade ...... 1047W TREASURY ...... 1060W Antisocial Behaviour Orders ...... 1047W Crown Estate Commissioners ...... 1060W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY—continued WOMEN AND EQUALITY—continued Departmental Nurseries...... 1061W Gender Pay Gap ...... 1051W EU: Legislation...... 1061W Rape: Victim Support Schemes ...... 1051W Income Tax ...... 1061W Members: Correspondence ...... 1062W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1054W Monetary Policy Committee ...... 1062W Chondrocalcinosis...... 1054W Revenue and Customs: Maladministration ...... 1062W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 1055W Revenue and Customs: Manpower...... 1062W Disability Living Allowance...... 1055W Swine Flu...... 1063W Industrial Health and Safety...... 1056W Taxation: Alcoholic Drinks...... 1063W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Essex ...... 1056W Taxation: Crown Dependencies...... 1063W Pension Service: Consultants ...... 1057W Valuation Office: Standards ...... 1064W Petrol: Storage ...... 1057W Public Information Zones ...... 1057W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 1051W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 1058W Breast Feeding ...... 1051W Social Security Benefits: Overseas Residence ...... 1058W Females: Human Trafficking...... 1051W Unemployed: Training ...... 1059W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Thursday 25 June 2009 Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 919] [see index inside back page] Minister of State, Department for Transport Minister for Women and Equality National Security Strategy [Col. 939] Answer to urgent question—(Mr. Hanson) Business of the House [Col. 948] Statement—(Ms Harman) Business of the House [Col. 967] Motion—(Barbara Keeley)—agreed to Regional Select Committee (London) [Col. 969] Motion—(Ms Harman)—on a Division, agreed to Standing Orders [Col. 986] Motion—(Barbara Keeley)—agreed to Parliamentary Pensions [Col. 1018] Motion—(Mark Tami) Amendment—(Steve Webb)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to South West Regional Grand Committee [Col. 1020] Motion—(Kerry McCarthy)—on a Division, agreed to East Midlands Regional Grand Committee [Col. 1022] Motion—(Kerry McCarthy)—on a Division, negatived South East Regional Grand Committee [Col. 1023] Motion—(Kerry McCarthy)—on a Division, agreed to Yorkshire and Humber Regional Grand Committee [Col. 1026] Motion—(Kerry McCarthy)—on a Division, agreed to East of England Regional Grand Committee [Col. 1028] Motion—(Kerry McCarthy)—on a Division, agreed to North West Regional Grand Committee [Col. 1030] Motion—(Mr. Watts)—on a Division, agreed to North East Regional Grand Committee [Col. 1032] Motion—(Mr. Watts)—on a Division, agreed to West Midlands Regional Grand Committee [Col. 1034] Motion—(Mr. Watts)—on a Division, agreed to Petition [Col. 1036] Traditional Crafts [Col. 1037] Debate on motion for Adjournment Westminster Hall Bill of Rights (UK) [Col. 307WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 65WS] Petitions [Col. 11P] Observations Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1003W]