Northern Primary Support Centre

NORTHERN PRIMARY SUPPORT CENTRE

CONSULTATION MEETING

STAFF/GOVERNORS

28 February 2008

Name Title Initials Lynda Richardson Children’s Services Manager, LR Quality Assurance Steve Stewart Director Future Schooling in SS Knowsley Jason Woodruff Head of Human Resources JW Clare Cook Education Change Partner CC Jill Gore SEN Officer JG Steve Redfern SEN officer SR Mike Townson Project Officer MT Lynne Bennett School Organisation Officer and LB scribe

Staff Meeting 4.00pm

1. Introduction by Barbara Twiss

2. Presentation:Lynda Richardson School competition information and anticipated timeline: Lynne Bennett

3. Q & A

Question/comment The offer regarding the revolving door principle – is it mainstream children coming into our provision? LR I’ll come to that later in the presentation. Some children need dedicated, discreet provision and some will need short term support. Comment I want to point out that the numbers in our school change throughout the year as there are peaks and troughs, and our figures are actual figures, not based on live birth rates.

Question/comment How many places will there be? LR The proposal is for 30 places plus 10 on the revolving door basis. Question/comment Is the revolving door two-way? What happens if we want to integrate the children? LR Yes, the revolving door is two-way. Children will have the opportunity to integrate into mainstream, whether in the new school or another mainstream school. Regarding the number of pupils, 409 is the projected figure for the mainstream but there will be places for 420. However when a child has a statement this will be in addition to the 420 places.

Question/comment What is the proposed class size? LR It’s for two-form entry - 60 places, so a class size of 30.

Question/comment If the revolving door is to provide support for 14 mainstream schools, will 10 places be enough? LR One of the issues is that the government tells us how big a school can be for provision for special needs. The capital fund is £7.9M but we have to follow the guidelines, so there would be a capital issue which would be a barrier to making the school bigger. SR Also, we will need to consider how long the revolving door places will last. Lots of planning will be required and there is a lot of detail to be worked out.

Question/comment When children come now there is a referral process. Will this remain the same? SR Yes. Historically there were some part time places allocated to primary schools but there will have to be a referral process.

Question/comment The revolving door process hasn’t worked in the past - we’ve had children who come here for a short time and then go back to mainstream, then end up having to come back here permanently. LR There are workstreams in place, including planning for the future, so you can feed into those your previous findings in order to inform future planning. What will be different in the new school is that opportunities for mainstream integration are available on site. Question/comment Why is it on the Catholic site? LR When the number of learning centres reduced from three to two due to pupil numbers there was a lot of discussion and surveys required. Ultimately it was a council decision to have one learning centre in South Kirkby and one in the north and the decision was made to put the Catholic learning Centre in the north. Comment I was looking for links and relationships between the schools, with transition right through for children from 0-19.

Question/comment This will be a large disruption in the children’s lives – from a small school to a larger school. It’s a major upheaval for children, first moving to the new school and then for year 6 moving to another site 4 months later. CC It could be phased in to minimise the disruption for year 6 children. This will apply to all three schools and feedback will come through the workstreams. LR That is the whole purpose of this consultation – for you to tell us what you think; what the issues are. In terms of the proposal, when the report goes to Cabinet they have the power to make a decision, taking the feedback into account. SS I’ve been involved in school closures on both sides. The people who cope best are the children. There is a whole range of implications for the adults involved, and they’re top of the adult’s agenda, but children are incredibly resilient.

Question/comment We need to move with the children. Their discreet identity will be altered when they move into a new school. LR We can’t stress enough that the children are at the heart of the thinking behind this. CC The key point is that this is the start of the process. Headteachers will be working together, and on Monday there is the first joint staff meeting. It’s about beginning to build bridges. From now it will begin to become a reality and the children will take part so that they don’t just suddenly come to the new school on the first day. They’ll be involved in the design of the school. These are the issues that are discussed in the workstreams. LR If you want to check that things are in place you can do this through the workstreams.

CK I’ve been involved in two schools in another part of the borough where one school closed. The children were involved in choosing new uniform and other things and they all worked well together.

Question/comment The wording on the proposal is not exactly as it was in the Future Schooling document, i.e. regarding the designated provision. LR This comes back to the issue of capital funding and the amount of space we’re allowed, but we’ll take that comment back.

Question/comment Is there a proposal to extend the language unit? LR We need to clarify that. Q How will that decision be arrived at? CC There are workstreams here and in the language unit at Westvale. Q Is this going to be discussed sooner or later? CC The workstream for the language unit is due to be set up in the next couple of weeks Q Is there going to be a borough-wide strategy for language provision? LR For the purpose of the consultation we’ll have to clarify that. Q We have 24 part time SPLD places, will this transfer? SR The detail of what is to be offered in the designated provision is still to be determined.

It was agreed that clarification is required on the extended services that will be offered in the designated provision in the new school i.e. will there be a language unit/SPLD?

Question/comment Who will be the employer if an external organisation wins the competition?

JW The external organisation would be the employer. TUPE (Transfer of Undertakings Protection of Employees) Regulations would apply. The transfer would be the education of the children.

Question/comment Will our terms and conditions change if there is a new employer? JW There would be a period of time when the new employer would have to honour that, but there may be an issue around pensions as they don’t have to have the same pension scheme. Large organisations such as Capita, who have had involvement in this area, are used to doing this.

Question/comment There have been some indications that the authority will submit a bid. LR No, it’s for the council to make that decision and as yet it hasn’t been made.. LR If you’re contributing to the workstreams that will go into the specification so we’re very clear about what we want in the school. That’s why it’s important for you to provide feedback. SS It would be very useful to enter into a dialogue with your local councillors, either through their surgeries or through the Area Partnership Board.

Question/comment If it’s an external employer, how will teacher’s payscales be affected? JW Under TUPE there is a timeframe to follow but they could change the scales in the future.

Question/comment Could an external organisation bring in their own staff? JW Not in the first instance, as you would have immediate grounds for unfair dismissal. The timescale is one year. JW There is a TUPE appeals procedure. We would in the first instance have some time for you to consider how you want your career to go, and where you see your career in the future. There may be some of you who would hope to go at that time. Question/comment What about continuous service? JW If you were employed by Knowsley your service would continue. If it’s an external employer that would depend on how they deal with pensions.

Question/comment Could we lose out? JW They could change your terms and conditions after one year. But remember there are market forces that can determine this, and if an external organisation wins the competition they will have to pay the market rate. There is an onus on Knowsley to seek to redeploy staff and given this timeline we have got time to put things in place, but we can’t cut across the competition. Once the decision is made we’ll be able to meet with you.

Question/comment What is TUPE? JW It is the Transfer of Undertakings Protection of Employee regulations.

Question/comment Even if Knowsley wins the bid there are going to be job losses e.g. only one site manager JW I would argue that there won’t be a lot of job losses as we would look to redeploy staff. We’ve got 1200 teachers in the BSF programme, going from 10 schools to 7 learning centres. As staff leave through natural wastage it provides an opportunity for us to redeploy someone. We’re going to invoke a vacancy freeze.

Question/comment Are there any financial incentives to go? JW There is potential for negotiation with your trade union colleagues.

Meeting ended 5.15pm Governor’s meeting

1. Introduction by Barbara Twiss

2. Presentation:Lynda Richardson School competition information and anticipated timeline: Lynne Bennett

3. Q & A

Question/comment Someone raised the fact that our numbers could stay constant as they are not based on birth rates or falling numbers. GG We have got information to support our figures.

Question/comment How do the governors fare if it’s an external provider? CK That will depend on the type of school. What we know is a governing body may not necessarily be the same in the future as it is now. Trust schools and foundations schools are set up differently.

LR Carol will research the implications of Trust school status and report back.

CK to research governance structures for trust/foundation schools and report back.

Question/comment If it’s a private company and that fails, can we revert back to being run by the local authority? LR We would need to find this out. There will still be an inspection framework in place and the same support will be there from an LA perspective.. LB The local authority would still have a legal obligation to provide education for the children.

SS Although there is a precedent of sorts, when grant maintained schools reverted back to local authority control Question/comment Has anyone expressed an interest yet? LR There is a national awareness of the work being done through BSF in Knowsley so there may be already. But the Department for Children, Schools and Families will be involved and will market the competition to interested organisations.

JW The transformational agenda that Knowsley has got is so ambitious that we would need to consider who can meet that standard.

Question/comment I’m concerned because integrated services workstream has been suspended since before Christmas. It makes for a lot of uncertainty. LR That decision will be made much later. Clarification is required on some issues and it is being fed back via this meeting and the workstreams. We do need to make decisions clarity on the three services- the language unit, SPLD and the co-located staff.

Question/comment Is it felt within DCS that the local authority will submit a bid? LR This is unchartered territory and we’re learning from others, but it will be a decision made by Cabinet.

Question/comment Is there a process in place for the children – a changeover point? LR Within the workstreams we need to make transitional plans for the children. SS In a sense of reassurance there is an experienced officer in this room who has been through a similar experience.

Question/comment What happens to the new build if an external provider wins? LR The new build will still happen as we’ve already got a contract with Transform for the construction.

Question/comment Who will make the recommendations to the Cabinet? LR The Executive Director of Children’s Services. He is responsible for the report and there will be recommendations in the report. The recommendations will take into consideration the feedback from the three schools.

There was a general discussion about who would make the recommendations.

Question/comment Is there an appeals procedure? LB I think it depends on who the decision maker is – there may be an appeal process against the local authority’s decision but not against a decision made by the school’s adjudicator, but I’ll check this and report back.

Post meeting note: An appeal against a local authority decision can be made only when a decision is made to close a voluntary aided school. There is no appeals process against a decision to close a community school.

Meeting closed 6.00 pm. NORTHERN SUPPORT CENTRE

PARENTS MEETING

29 February 2008

9.00 am

Name Title Initials Elaine Ayre Service Director Quality EA Assurance Mike Marshall Children’s Services Manager MM Quality Assurance and Inclusion Steve Redfern SEN Officer SR Victoria Wright Project Manager VW Mike Townson Project Officer MT Pam Parr Parent partnership officer PP Lynne Bennett School organisation officer and LB scribe

Question/comment Is Ruffwood going to be knocked down? EA Yes. The new community learning centre will be where Brookfield is now and All Saints, which will become the Kirkby Catholic learning Centre, will be on the Ruffwood site. Originally we thought we needed three learning centres in Kirkby, but when we reviewed the figures it became clear that we only need two to accommodate the pupils.

Question/comment When will it happen? EA The school organisation process takes up to 15 months but there is a lot of work going on now, with groups looking at the curriculum and how the leadership and management should look. All the design ideas will be sent to the architects and the plans will be reviewed and finally agreed.. We have a contract with Transform to build the new school. Transform are also building the new learning centres.

Question/comment Will all the children be together? EA They’ll be in the same building but there will be an area for those children with special needs, so they might be able to go to assembly and then go back to their classroom for lessons. MM There’s a lot of work to do yet as to how it will look in the new building. It might be that we have the Key Stage 1 part of special needs provision alongside key stage 1 mainstream, then all of KS2 together. Or it could be that all the designated provision might be in one particular area of the school. We need your views about that. It’s about the children who are here now, or would come here in the future. They will be able to access some of the mainstream provision if they are able to integrate. We’re not saying every child should integrate with every aspect so I don’t want you to worry that your child will be forced into something.

Question/comment Will there be a separate building? MM No, the special provision will be in the mainstream building, but there will be extra funding for the special provision, and there will be one headteacher and one governing body.

Question/comment I’ve just taken my son out of mainstream because he works better in the smaller groups here. MM He can continue to do that but in the future, if he can work alongside mainstream children in some lessons such as music or PE, he’ll be able to do that and then go back to his own class for lessons. The new school will have the capacity for 40 children in total, and there are 28 here in Northern now. Generally there would be about 8 – 10 pupils per class. We don’t expect there to be more than 10 pupils per class in the new provision. It will be adequately resourced with expert staff.

Question/comment Children can be very cruel, and when they’ve got special needs, as our children have, it’s even worse. I’m really concerned about how the children will manage. SR It’s the way in which the system and amalgamation will be introduced. There are benefits for all pupils here, and for the mainstream pupils in working with and alongside children with special needs.

Comment I don’t want my child to be unhappy coming to school. MM We’ve given it the name “designated provision” deliberately so we can keep the family feel to it, and the provision will be small. If we weren’t going to be building a new school the numbers here would reduce in 2010. We’re also introducing the provision for children in mainstream school who need to access the designated provision for short periods of time. We can’t offer any guarantees but we can plan very effectively and that will involve working with you to ensure it works.

Question/comment Does the external provider have to meet the specification? LB There will be certain criteria in the specification, but the external organisations don’t have to meet those exactly.

Meeting ended 3.00pm.

It was agreed that Mike Marshall and Pam Parr would meet with parents individually to ensure that parents are fully aware of the proposal and to engage them in the process.