NORTHWEST TERRITORIES LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

5th Session Day 87 17th Assembly

HANSARD

Friday, October 2, 2015

Pages 6621 – 6658

The Honourable Jackie Jacobson, Speaker Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories Members of the Legislative Assembly

Speaker Hon. Jackie Jacobson (Nunakput)

______

Hon. Glen Abernethy Mrs. Jane Groenewegen Mr. Kevin Menicoche (Great Slave) (Hay River South) (Nahendeh) Minister of Health and Social Services Minister responsible for Mr. Robert Hawkins Hon. J. Michael Persons with Disabilities (Yellowknife Centre) Miltenberger Minister responsible for Seniors (Thebacha) Hon. Jackson Lafferty Government House Leader Hon. Tom Beaulieu Minister of Finance (Monfwi) Minister of Environment and Natural (Tu Nedhe) Deputy Premier Minister of Human Resources Resources Minister of Education, Culture and Minister responsible for the Minister of Transportation Employment NWT Power Corporation Minister of Public Works and Minister responsible for the Workers’ Services Safety and Compensation Commission Mr. Alfred Moses Ms. Wendy Bisaro (Inuvik Boot Lake) (Frame Lake) Hon. Bob McLeod (Yellowknife South) Mr. Michael Nadli Mr. Frederick Blake Premier (Deh Cho) (Mackenzie Delta) Minister of Executive Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Hon. David Ramsay Mr. Robert Bouchard Intergovernmental Relations (Kam Lake) Minister responsible for Women (Hay River North) Minister of Justice Minister of Industry, Tourism Mr. Bob Bromley Hon. Robert C. McLeod and Investment (Inuvik Twin Lakes) Minister responsible for the (Weledeh) Minister of Municipal and Public Utilities Board Community Affairs Mr. Daryl Dolynny Minister of Lands Mr. Norman Yakeleya (Range Lake) Minister responsible for the (Sahtu) NWT Housing Corporation Minister responsible for Youth

______Officers Clerk of the Legislative Assembly Mr. Tim Mercer

Deputy Clerk Principal Clerk, Principal Clerk, Committee Clerk Law Clerks Committees and Corporate and Trainee Public Affairs Interparliamentary Affairs Mr. Doug Schauerte Mr. Michael Ball Ms. Gail Bennett Mrs. Danielle Mager Ms. Sheila MacPherson Ms. Malinda Kellett Mr. Glen Rutland ______Box 1320 Yellowknife, Northwest Territories Tel: (867) 669-2200 Fax: (867) 920-4735 Toll-Free: 1-800-661-0784 http://www.assembly.gov.nt.ca Published under the authority of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories 4

1) TABLE OF CONTENTS

PRAYER...... 6621

MINISTERS' STATEMENTS...... 6621

228-17(5) – Retirement of Hilda Camirand (B. McLeod)...... 6621

229-17(5) – Progress on Changes in the NWT Corrections Service (Ramsay)6621

230-17(5) – Health and Social Services System Transformation (Abernethy) 6622

231-17(5) – State of Communities (R. McLeod)...... 6623

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS...... 6624

Employment of Post-Secondary Graduates in the NWT (Bouchard)...... 6624

NWT Revenue Growth Concerns (Dolynny)...... 6624

Funding for NWT Addictions Treatment Centre (Nadli)...... 6625

Deh Cho Bridge Project Analysis (Bisaro)...... 6625

NWT Seniors’ Issues (Moses)...... 6626

Localized Sustainable Economic Development (Bromley)...... 6626

Housing Issues in Sahtu Communities (Yakeleya)...... 6627

Transformation of Health Services in Nahendeh (Menicoche)...... 6627

Expansion of NWT Seniors Facilities (Hawkins)...... 6628

Medical Travel Policy (Groenewegen)...... 6628

RECOGNITION OF VISITORS IN THE GALLERY...... 6629

ORAL QUESTIONS...... 6630

TABLING OF DOCUMENTS...... 6641

NOTICES OF MOTION...... 6642

Motion 49-17(5) – Dissolution of the 17th Legislative Assembly (Yakeleya).....6642 FIRST READING OF BILLS...... 6642

Bill 69 – An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act, No. 2 6642

SECOND READING OF BILLS...... 6642

Bill 68 – An Act to Amend the Child and Family Services Act, No. 2...... 6642

CONSIDERATION IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE OF BILLS AND OTHER MATTERS 6643

REPORT OF COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE...... 6656

ORDERS OF THE DAY...... 6657 October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 6

YELLOWKNIFE, NORTHWEST TERRITORIES Friday, October 2, 2015 Members Present Hon. Glen Abernethy, Hon. Tom Beaulieu, Ms. Bisaro, Mr. Bouchard, Mr. Bromley, Mr. Dolynny, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. Hawkins, Hon. Jackie Jacobson, Hon. Jackson Lafferty, Hon. Bob McLeod, Hon. Robert McLeod, Mr. Menicoche, Hon. Michael Miltenberger, Mr. Moses, Mr. Nadli, Hon. David Ramsay, Mr. Yakeleya

from her wise counsel, expert advice The House met at 10:03 a.m. and impressive organizational skills. Hilda has seen many changes over the 2) Prayer course of her career, including division and devolution. In fact, she started her ---Prayer career with the GNWT in 1990, working SPEAKER (Hon. Jackie Jacobson): for the then devolution office. It is fitting Good morning, colleagues, Item 2, that she has been with the GNWT long Ministers’ statements. Honourable enough to see devolution become a Premier, Mr. McLeod. reality.

3) Ministers’ Statements Hilda has inspired others around her to meet a standard of public service and MINISTER'S STATEMENT 228-17(5): professionalism that will be her legacy. RETIREMENT OF HILDA There will be more information about CAMIRAND Hilda’s retirement celebration available HON. BOB MCLEOD: Mr. Speaker, we in the coming weeks. I expect it will be often talk about the people of the NWT quite the event and that’s where all the as being our greatest resource. I think juicy stories will come out. it’s fair to say that our Government of ---Laughter the Northwest Territories’ public service On behalf of the GNWT, I would like to is made up of many of those remarkable thank Hilda and wish her the very best people who dedicate themselves to in her retirement. It will not be the same public service. Today I would like to without her. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. acknowledge one of those public servants who has dedicated 25 years to this government and the people of the NWT. On December 4th Hilda Camirand will MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. retire. McLeod. Minister of Justice, Mr. ---Applause Ramsay. During her career she has supported many Premiers and Ministers. All of them, including myself, have benefitted October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 7

MINISTER'S STATEMENT 229-17(5): made in each priority area. These PROGRESS ON CHANGES IN changes have been communicated to THE NWT CORRECTIONS staff and they are making improvements SERVICE in their day-to-day operations as a HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Mr. Speaker, result. providing our residents with Every inmate is now receiving opportunities to make healthy choices is appropriate case management, a priority that has strong support from including individualized release plans. this Assembly and the Government of This includes those on remand and the Northwest Territories. those serving sentences that are less This support extends to all citizens, than 120 days. including those serving sentences in a Changes have also been made which correctional facility. Progress made by allow corrections officers to focus their the Department of Justice over the past efforts on true contraband items such as six months will mean inmates looking to drugs and items that present safety make better choices and return to their risks. Staff recognized the definitions communities as healthy, contributing being used to describe contraband were members will be better supported. not focused on those items that could In March of this year, we received a cause harm or disrupt the safe and report and recommendations from the orderly operations of facilities. In fact, 85 Office of the Auditor General on the percent of the items were actually corrections service. This report was nuisance items such as cups or pillows. reviewed by the Standing Committee on We will be examining types of Government Operations, and later contraband closely to be able to react to today, at the appropriate time, I will be changing trends as they arise. tabling the Government of the Northwest I am also pleased to report that progress Territories’ response to the standing has been made on training. Through committee’s report, including an established mandated training, updated progress report on action standards have been set and tracking taken. processes are in place to provide a safe Progress on improvements resulting and secure working environment for from the Office of the Auditor General’s staff and inmates. As crime evolves, so recommendations has been substantial. must our officers’ training in order to Of the original 106 individual action have the best skills and current items the corrections service outlined in intelligence to understand today’s their action plan released in May, over inmates. 75 percent are now complete, and we Steps have been taken to improve expect that most items will be completed correctional programing. Seven years by the spring of 2016. Today I would like have now passed since the last program to share some of the highlights of that review was completed, and we need to progress with you. stay current with offender needs and All 194 corrections directives, setting out profiles. A survey of staff and inmates how the service operates, have been along with research on correctional reviewed and necessary amendments programming has been completed. Analysis on the information learned will October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 8 allow the NWT corrections service to This milestone is the result of years of create strong programming that meets work and collaboration between many the rehabilitative needs of inmates. We different stakeholders, including the plan to complete this work by March chairs and public administrators of the 2017. Until then, we will continue to health and social services authorities, provide a range of programs including Aboriginal and community governments those that incorporate traditional healing and Health and Social Services staff and enlist Aboriginal elders to share from across the system. We also heard aspects of their culture and traditions. from the public about how to improve This focus on traditional healing will patient care and client service delivery. continue to be a key element of Mr. Speaker, our goal in the process of programming at the facilities. system transformation is to improve the These are just a few of the actions that Health and Social Services System’s have been taken by the Department of ability to provide the best possible care Justice in the last several months. I want to patients and clients. We want the to assure Members that the staff at our system to focus on the needs of clients correctional facilities are professional and ensure it is as efficient, sustainable and are committed to excellence. We and accountable as possible. are grateful to the Auditor General’s The current governance structure office and the standing committee for makes it difficult to improve our system. their advice that has helped us refine With eight different health and social and focus our efforts. Thank you, Mr. services authorities, there has been a Speaker. lack of coordination, communication, MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. and an inefficient use of resources. We Ramsay. Minister of Health and Social are working to improve the governance Services, Mr. Abernethy. structure so that we can take advantage of new technologies, improve capacity MINISTER'S STATEMENT 230-17(5): and continue to provide high-quality HEALTH AND SOCIAL services and programs in the future, SERVICES while ensuring that we provide a SYSTEM TRANSFORMATION consistent level of care for all residents. HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Mr. Mr. Speaker, on April 1, 2016, six health Speaker, I would like to provide an and social services authorities will be update on our plans to improve care and amalgamated into a territorial health and services for our residents by improving social services authority. The legislation the Health and Social Services System. also provides for the Hay River Health On June 4, 2015, Bill 44, An Act to and Social Services Authority to become Amend the Hospital Insurance and part of the territorial authority at a later Health and Social Services date, pending the negotiations required Administration Act, received asset in the to bring its employees into the public Legislative Assembly. With the assent of service. The Tlicho Community Services Bill 44, we now have the legislative Agency will remain a distinct entity, as mechanism to bring the NWT Health provided for in the Tlicho Agreement, and Social Services System together. but will continue to be an important partner in our system and participate in October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 9 system-wide planning and decision- instrumental to this work over the last making. few years. Advisory regional wellness councils will Leading up to April 1, 2016, a dedicated be established to replace the current team is working with Health and Social regional boards of management, with Services staff from across the system to the exception of the Tlicho Community develop detailed organizational Services Agency. The regional wellness structures for the Territorial Health and councils will provide for a more effective Social Services Authority and the regional voice at the territorial level. The Department of Health and Social chairs from each region, including the Services and accompanying transition Tlicho Community Services Agency, will and implementation plans to move the be members of the territorial health and current system to the proposed new social services board of management, structure. which will be known as the Northwest Improving our Health and Social Territories Health and Social Services Services System is a process, not an Leadership Council. event, and will not end with the Mr. Speaker, the NWT is a large establishment of the new governance territory, with different regions and structure. We will continue to improve cultures each with its own priorities and our system to better support its clients challenges. Residents will now have a and make it easier for service providers greater voice and influence on the to deliver effective, efficient, patient- services they receive, both at the centred care and programs. Thank you, regional and territorial level. Mr. Speaker. Despite our regional differences, we MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. share many of the same problems, and Abernethy. Minister of Municipal and it is much better to work collectively to Community Affairs, Mr. McLeod. address these issues and meet the needs of our residents. That means MINISTER'S STATEMENT 231-17(5): recognizing our diverse cultures, STATE OF COMMUNITIES respecting Aboriginal customs and HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Mr. traditions, and working in partnership Speaker, community governments are with Aboriginal governments. critical partners in building a strong and Mr. Speaker, we are working hard to independent North. As we near the end achieve our vision of “Best Health, Best of our term, it is a good time to look Care for a Better Future.” As a step back at the work we have done to forward in the move in the new system support community governments and structure, today I am pleased to the challenges that still remain. announce that Mr. Jim Antoine has been In 2013 the Department of Municipal named as the chairperson-designate of and Community Affairs launched the the Territorial Health and Social Accountability Framework for Services Leadership Council. Mr. community governments. This tool is Antoine brings a wealth of experience used to measure the performance of and knowledge to the design and community governments based on 14 development of the Health and Social defined indicators. MACA is currently Services System and has been collecting and analyzing the 2014-2015 October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 10 data that will be used to create a unique have supported a total of 22 trainees work plan with each government based from 18 communities. on that community’s specific needs. With the improved training and Mr. Speaker, the importance of MACA development opportunities being offered working collaboratively with community to community government governments cannot be overstated. In representatives, many community May of this year, the department was governments are thriving. honoured to receive the NWT However, Mr. Speaker, despite the very Association of Communities President’s best efforts of many people, we are Award in recognition of the collaborative reminded that some communities still approach taken in the formula funding struggle to deliver full services to all review. The formula funding review was residents. We know that there are some undertaken by a working group of senior communities that are struggling to meet administrative officers and elected demands with inadequate resources, officials from communities across the some struggle with capacity and having North as well as senior staff from skilled workers, while others face larger MACA. challenges with governance and having As a result of the research and effective bylaws and policies in place. discussions carried out by the working We currently have one community under group, a new needs-based approach municipal administration and another was developed that better addresses under municipal supervision. These are community requirements. This work significant steps and were only would not have been possible without necessary due to extreme conditions. the support and engagement of the However, while these administrative and community government representatives supervision orders were necessary, I am and NWTAC. pleased to report that both communities MACA is committed to supporting the appear to be progressing and we expect communities by offering training and them to return to normal in the future. development opportunities for Some NWT communities are run by community government representatives. Aboriginal governments under the Working with its partners, the authority of Aboriginal Affairs and department is administering the Public Northern Development Canada, or Service Capacity Initiative, which AANDC. In these communities, the includes a series of programs designed GNWT has a contractual relationship for to enhance community government the administration of municipal-like public service capacity. services. Despite providing funding for The focus of the initiative is to recruit, these services, and training and retain and train senior level community development through the School of government staff, and a community Community Government, some of these government training specialist position designated authorities continue to run has been created in the South Slave deficits and are challenged by region to provide coaching mentoring governance issues. MACA is continuing and on-site support. Since the initiative to work with AANDC to support band began in 2009, MACA and its partners councils and band managers to provide October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 11 more capacity building and improved and the Department of HR. We have a governance support. disconnect there. I think that we should MACA is also responding to new forms be able to communicate with those of governance, with progress being students and link them to jobs before made toward the implementation of the they’ve even completed their education. Deline Self-Government Agreement in Hay River has a great couple of September 2016. The community has students right now. Mr. Lance Crook is hired an implementation team that is finishing up his education, a doctorate, working alongside DAAIR and MACA to and he’s in Hay River doing some ensure that all necessary components training. We also have R.J. Simpson, are in place and ready by next who has finished his degree in law and September. The three parties have is looking for the GNWT to do articling. agreed upon an implementation plan He’s having difficulties finding a position. and meet regularly to discuss The problem we have is that exact thing. objectives, track progress and outline Why is Mr. Simpson coming back to the responsibilities. Northwest Territories now to get an Mr. Speaker, as you can see, there has articling position? Shouldn’t we have been some very good work to support already known that from student and develop community governments, financial assistance that that was what while at the same time we also have he was doing? Shouldn’t we have talked new and ongoing challenges to address. to HR and the Department of Justice The department has done good work, and linked this together so Mr. Simpson and I invite all Members to join me in and other students have an opportunity thanking all its staff and management to come back? The problem now is he’s for all of their efforts to improve the considering, do I stay in the Northwest quality of living for our residents in their Territories or do I go south where I can communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. actually get a position? We should have linked that in his first and second year of MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. school, to HR, to the department he will Abernethy. Item 3, Members’ potentially be working for. Why is there statements. Member for Hay River a disconnect? North, Mr. Bouchard. I know the Department of ECE is looking 4) Members’ Statements to create this checkbox so HR can communicate with Justice and MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON everybody else. There is definitely a EMPLOYMENT OF POST- disconnect with our GNWT. We need to SECONDARY GRADUATES IN find that link and we need to make sure THE NWT all our students come back. We are MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. paying for that student financial Speaker. As this government has assistance. We should maximize that committed to growing the population of opportunity. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. the Northwest Territories over the next MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. few years, one of the areas that I talked Bouchard. Member for Range Lake, Mr. about in the past is our link between the Dolynny. students who are going out to schools October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 12

MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON corporate taxes collected. We would all NWT REVENUE GROWTH agree that increasing own-source CONCERNS revenue through taxes would likely MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. increase the cost of living, and it is Speaker. In continuing my daily ritual of worthy to note that corporate and evaluating the performance of the personal income taxes in the NWT are McLeod government, today I want to among the lowest in Canada. reference my tabled document of To pass praise where praise is due, the Tuesday, September 29, 2015, and January 2015 Fraser Institute graded spend some time on our revenue Canada’s Premiers based on corporate concerns, both federal and own source. and personal income taxes or changes By all accounts, our GNWT revenue in tax rates. Now, although not grew by 149.79 percent from 2000 to specifically mentioned in this Fraser today, and was substantially more than Report, Premier McLeod would place, operation spending growth of 115 and as I’m saying, the best in the percent during the same period. country, first place on corporate taxes However, with federal transfers currently and second place on personal income accounting for more than 70 percent of taxes, and by these measures Premier GNWT revenue, and with only modest McLeod would have been second NWT population growth over these 15 overall of all the Premiers in Canada, years, we should be concerned of what behind Alberta. current negative trend in population At this time, Mr. Speaker, I seek growth truly means. In fact, it is in the unanimous consent to conclude my 2015-16 year where we see the single statement. largest negative revenue growth of ---Unanimous consent granted minus 1.01 percent, and if you put this side by side with our operational MR. DOLYNNY: This is very painful for spending at 2.15 percent, you can me. clearly see this is not a balanced budget ---Laughter process, as it’s been portrayed, but a Now, I know the Premier is gleaming true deficit process. right now, and to be fair, I wanted to be While we are told and soothed when we balanced in my reporting. He does get have an operational surplus, it is an A for maintaining a stable, low important to note that this is not entirely corporate and personal tax environment, true, as this book adjustment surplus is but – hang on – his government only already spent in our capital budget gets a C grade for how it has handled process. our population growth issues, our own- The second source of our revenue is source revenue options and increased through own-source revenue, and this volatility in our overall revenue revenue grew by 143.2 percent from management. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 2000 to 2016 or ’15, far more than the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. inflation but less than total revenue. Our Dolynny. Member for Deh Cho, Mr. own-source revenue is more variable Nadli. than federal transfers due to the volatility and the forecasting of our October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 13

MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON Mr. Speaker, I applaud Chief Roy FUNDING FOR NWT Fabian and I support the KFN in the ADDICTIONS push to reopen the only treatment TREATMENT CENTRE centre in the NWT. Chief Fabian says MR. NADLI: Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I’m the response of the Minister of Health very distressed over this week’s report and Social Services was like a slap in that the Minister of Health and Social the face. The chief was trying to provide Services has rejected a proposal put leadership on an issue that matters to forth by the K’atlodeeche First Nations the community and instead he’s to reopen the only addictions treatment disrespected and insulted in the centre located in the NWT. There was a process. This does not sound to me like lot of disappointment and disbelief when the actions of a Minister who truly the department pulled the funding for believes in partnerships with Aboriginal the Hay River Reserve’s Nats’ejee K’eh governments. Treatment Centre. Will the Minister reconsider his response I agree with my colleagues in this to the KFN and commit to reopening the House; I question whether it was a wise treatment centre? Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. decision to close the only addictions MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Nadli. treatment centre in the NWT. I was Member for Frame Lake, Ms. Bisaro. willing to accept the department’s position that they were shifting their MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON focus to the on-the-land programs, but I DEH CHO BRIDGE PROJECT was also encouraged that they seemed ANALYSIS to be willing to work with the KFN to find MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ways to reopen the treatment centre. Over the summer months I had a Now, it appears that Health and Social disappointing e-mail exchange with the Services is no longer willing to support Minister of Transportation. For several this. Like many others, I want to know years now I’ve been waiting for the the reasons why. This government talks government, the Department of a lot about working in partnership with Transportation, to produce and make Aboriginal governments. If we truly publicly available a comprehensive, in- believe in this, then I don’t know how we depth review and analysis of the Deh can take such a non-productive Cho Bridge Project. I have repeatedly approach with KFN. asked about work done on such an The KFN wants to see the treatment analysis, and for years now I’ve been centre reopened. There are a lot of given excuses as to why it hasn’t yet good, common sense reasons why this happened. should happen. We could support the Last month I finally got a straight KFN to continue to use that perfectly answer, but it’s one which gives true serviceable facility. We could support meaning to the phrase “the government putting jobs in the community, and most can’t be trusted because they lie.” importantly, we could provide a On December 13, 2011, there was, in treatment option for our own residents this House, a public commitment by the who want to stay in the NWT while in Transportation Minister of the day to do recovery. a full retrospective analysis of the Deh October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 14

Cho Bridge Project. But the answer I Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent received last month from Minister to conclude my statement. Beaulieu stated, “I have had discussions ---Unanimous consent granted with my Cabinet colleagues on the pros and cons of committing additional time MS. BISARO: Everything done by the and resources to undertaking additional Department of Transportation does not analysis of the Deh Cho Bridge Project. address the fundamental underlying It has been determined that further issue: the project did not proceed as retrospective analysis of the bridge planned. Where is the report which project is not warranted at this time.” identifies and outlines the problems with The Minister continued, “Any additional the project, where it went off the rails analysis at this time is not expected to and why? result in new lessons learned and could Minister Ramsay committed to a full become a distraction to other significant retrospective analysis of the bridge initiatives of the government.” A project, and that’s what I and the public distraction, Mr. Speaker. expected. Now it’s just a distraction and The Deh Cho Bridge Project was not worth doing. undoubtedly the most poorly handled Examining past mistakes is invaluable to project in this and the two previous preventing the same thing from Assemblies. The public deserves to happening in the future. At the very know why and where the project went least, Cabinet should be able to provide wrong, deserves to know why it ended me and the public with a report that up costing residents, through their tax encompasses all the work done to date dollars, some four times the original in an easily readable and informative estimate. format. The e-mail answer to me went on to say I will have questions for the Minister of that a number of analyses have taken Transportation at the appropriate time. place and that “other reviews have also Thank you. been undertaken, including the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. presentations delivered at several Bisaro. Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, venues.” Are all of these items publicly Mr. Moses. available,” I asked. Are they even available to MLAs? What are these MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON other reviews? Presentations were NWT SENIORS’ ISSUES made to whom? Did MLAs have access MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. to the info in those presentations? Can On June 24th to the 26th this past the public have access to those summer, I had the honour of sitting in a presentations? They certainly should. meeting with seniors from around the The last straw for me was this part of region that I attended and worked on a the answer: “The Deh Cho Bridge is seniors meeting entitled Working functioning and operating as planned Together to Address Seniors Issues. It and there are no outstanding concerns was a follow-up to a meeting that some regarding the processes as to procure of the stakeholders, some of the this important piece of infrastructure.” coordinators did when they came to October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 15

Yellowknife and had a meeting with the just recently our Children First Centre in NWT Seniors’ Society. Inuvik went and visited our elders at A lot of really good discussions Ingamo Hall and had a great day with happened during those three days, and them, I think just a couple days ago. As we had seniors from Aklavik, well, home care is needed to be Tsiigehtchic, Fort McPherson and addressed. Inuvik. They were bringing up issues Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent that meant a lot to them, and anybody to conclude my statement. who was in attendance that day could ---Unanimous consent granted see the passion and the hardship that our elders go through on a daily basis MR. MOSES: As I mentioned, these and that continue to occur. elders had a lot of passion and a lot of concern, and almost every elder spoke Today I want to bring up some of those up. It was their venue to speak and be issues that the elders addressed as they listened to. Each community brought broke into their focus groups by priorities forward, some with similar community to see what kinds of themes. As I mentioned, home care, solutions they could come up with. suicide, what kinds of services are Things such as language interpreters, provided in the community, and also whether it’s through the justice system, elder abuse was a big one. It provided through the health and social services great guidelines for other regions to system, even the education system, and follow, and I think that’s something that that’s been brought up in this House we need to promote in other regions th over the term of the 17 Assembly. throughout the Northwest Territories. Other things: lack of RCMP in the Our elders are our caregivers, providers, communities, lack of health care in and keepers of knowledge. It’s time that some cases in some of the we support them, show them the communities, as well as on-the-land respect that they deserve, treat them programs not for treatment but to create with dignity and listen to what they had awareness, increase our culture, go said in this report. back to the traditional values they feel are being lost, and working with youth. I will have questions today for the Minister responsible to see how we can Of course, they wanted to bring up address this, how we can get the next something that has continue to occur, government to take this as one of our and Members on this side of the House priorities. As you know, our seniors have spoken to it on many occasions, population is increasing. and that’s the elder abuse. Other things that we’ve talked about which were kind MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. of addressed and we’re trying to deal Moses. The Member for Weledeh, Mr. with within the Child and Family Bromley. Services Act are child welfare cases and MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON concerns, and our grandparents are LOCALIZED SUSTAINABLE continuing to foster care. ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT Things such as housing is another MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. issue, and working with youth. In fact, Speaker. I was following and supporting October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 16 the Finance Minister’s report on the with the A grade – so it is investing in fiscal situation we are leaving for the 18th sustainable economic infrastructure and Assembly, noting the volatility of the social and cultural development. global economy, the mining industry and Attendees recognize that globalized our economy; low revenues; and the businesses don’t attend to local needs, need to diversify. That is until he highlighting why ownership is key. suddenly and illogically looped back to Public and cooperative ownership are saying that, therefore, we have to ways to include local people and focus pursue the highly volatile and uncertain investment locally. This approach extractive industry even harder. supports quality of life and the People are drained of any remnant of strengthening of social structure. In enthusiasm for this old way of thinking focus sessions, participants concluded and they pine for recognition of the real that food systems are at the heart of opportunities we do have for vibrant, localized economies and food security localized and cooperative economies for everyone; that climate change, that benefit our families, communities energy costs and health are three and businesses. primary drivers of renewable energy adoption… Last May people from across the Northwest Territories, convinced that a Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent new vision is needed, came together to conclude my statement. with economists to explore localization ---Unanimous consent granted of our community economies and what it MR. BROMLEY: In focus sessions, could mean. They saw a viable participants concluded that food alternative to a resource extractive systems are at the heart of localized economy, but one that must deal with economies and food security; that two issues: climate change and poverty. climate change, energy costs and health This means changes to our economic are three primary drivers of renewable model from a global one to a local one. energy adoption; and that compared to People were enthused. Localized oil and gas, renewables are investments economies enhance rather than in local jobs and businesses. Much work degrade resources, target community needs to be done to evolve government people rather than transient populations, policy that recognizes and supports take a grassroots approach and support local economies. diversity. They are achieved by In conclusion, the goal should be removing fossil fuel subsidies, following community empowerment that builds a the polluter pays principle, refocusing strong local economic foundation and towards diverse local enterprises rather restores the commons. We need to take than a single extractive industry, and control of our destiny, invest in our replacing the glamorized industrial collective strengths, and work together model based on external investors to an locally towards a brighter economic economic gardening model with local future. Now there is an economic people in mind. The gathering approach that will address the Minister’s recognized that poverty and inequity are fiscal challenges and all Members’ goals bad for our economy but that the NWT of healthy families and communities could alter tax policy – and I disagree supported by this government. October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 17

Let’s get ‘er done. Mahsi. we can do, or do we continue to allow MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. these empty houses to sit empty and do Bromley. The Member for Sahtu, Mr. nothing? Yakeleya. I’ll have questions for the NWT Minister of Housing on how we can clean house. MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. HOUSING ISSUES IN SAHTU Yakeleya. The Member for Nahendeh, COMMUNITIES Mr. Menicoche. MR. YAKELEYA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to know why there are MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON so many houses just sitting empty in the TRANSFORMATION OF HEALTH Sahtu communities. This is a common SERVICES conversation I have when I meet with IN NAHENDEH my constituents in the Sahtu, especially MR. MENICOCHE: Mahsi, Mr. in Fort Good Hope. In Fort Good Hope Speaker. I’m very pleased to hear the there are rows and rows of empty Minister of Health’s statement on the houses and a long list of young people transformation of our health system, but who are waiting for a house. today I want to let the Minister know that Unbelievable. Here we have a case we simply must ensure that our where we’re not getting our act together residents in Fort Liard and Nahanni fast enough to put these young people Butte health needs are taken care of. in these houses and fill these empty They want to be served by the BC houses. Ministry of Northern Health in Fort The last NWT needs assessment paints Nelson, BC. a clear picture of the housing needs in The Minister travelled with me in May Fort Good Hope and the Sahtu and heard clearly from the residents that communities. A study that shows you they are treated fairly and with care the dire straits of overcrowding, the when they go to Fort Nelson. In fact, our health issues are a result of this fact and residents have been treated in Fort this spills over into other areas in our Nelson for decades. They’re only asking society. to formalize the process, recognize the The community leaders of Fort Good Fort Nelson Hospital as a point of Hope have always wanted to do service. This will then allow our region to something with these empty houses. refer and pay for the travel costs of our “Tear them down,” they say, “or build residents. new ones.” We need houses for our Having health services provided as people. There are provisions within the close to home as possible will lower the land claim that gives them the costs of health care in my region. It’s a opportunity to build these houses and two and a half hour drive from Fort Liard make it work for them, yet there seems into Fort Nelson, as opposed to when to be some delay in movement within they travel to Yellowknife it’s a two day the NWT Housing Corporation to travel. release these units. What is the problem? Can we really put people in I have been standing in this House for homes? Is that a good measurable goal three terms, asking our government and October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 18 our Minister of Health to authorize Fort We need more extended care beds Liard and Nahanni Butte residents to because Stanton isn’t going to cover receive their health care in Fort Nelson. them. Avens is offering a solution. We have an agreement with Alberta If this was a school, for goodness sake, Health, and we use all their facilities. we have policies to start looking at What will it take to have an agreement renovation plans or extension plans with the BC Ministry of Health to serve once they reach 75 percent, so why do our residents in Fort Liard and Nahanni they just pay lip service to our seniors? Butte? So, where are they to go? To the street, I will have questions at the appropriate I wonder? I don’t know. I could tell you time. Mahsi cho. about the 50 or more seniors on the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. waiting list, but no, the government Menicoche. Member for Yellowknife already knows this, so there’s nothing Centre, Mr. Hawkins. that seems to want to motivate them into action. MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON Typically finding a single partner is the EXPANSION OF NWT SENIORS biggest problem to these things, but no, FACILITIES they’ve got a partner, a partner that’s MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. competent, that can do the job and Speaker. Well, we all heard the other wants to do the job. So, what’s the day that the population in Canada is problem? Procrastination. I think that’s aging. No surprise, of course, and the all it is. NWT is certainly not immune to those So, while the delays continue, and of pressures. That’s right. Stats Canada course our elders population keeps says one out of every six persons in growing and growing, and the need for Canada are over the age of 64. Heck, 173 residential long-term beds is still at take the statistics in this room. Twenty zero capacity because they’re all full percent of the MLAs are over the age of and we need more, well, this 60. Stats Canada can see this, why government, what do they do? They hire can’t the GNWT see this? an expert, Dr. Hollander, who says in his So, while the problem keeps getting report – the government’s expert, by the ignored, Avens continues to be bursting way – “Yellowknife is expected to grow at the seams when it comes to capacity, by 287 percent in the next 16 years.” and as time goes on, it marches on, Oh, but that’s too far away to talk about, more seniors are on the waiting list at let’s go to 11 years away, 248 percent. Avens, knocking on the door when Oh, 11 years is too far away to think there’s nowhere else to turn. But what about? Well, let’s just get it down to five happens? They get turned away. Why years from now, 184 percent growth in does this keep being ignored? seniors. Avens is maxed out, Mr. Speaker. I Mr. Speaker, Mr. Bromley couldn’t be cannot keep telling you this, because more right; it was a shame the way Ms. everyone knows it, and if something Lemay had been treated in her nineties. doesn’t change, who knows what will She’s given her life, heart and soul to happen? this community and she’s shown the street, with no options. They’re giving October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 19 her temporary care but there is no that’s right. I think it would discourage solution. people from helping a friend who To sum up, it can’t go on any longer. needed a medical escort. This government needs to wake up to I will, later today, be asking the Minister the seniors’ problem. We must do of Health and Social Services if he could something to the demand that’s on our clarify for us what the policy is in a doorstep now. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. situation like this. I mean, it’s very MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. possible that the treatment or procedure Hawkins. Member for Hay River South, that that patient was schedule for could Mrs. Groenewegen. get changed for some reason. It could be any number of reasons. If the patient MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON is not sent back to their home MEDICAL TRAVEL POLICY community, what happens to the person who escorted them here when they MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you, need to return? Mr. Speaker. Today I’d like to talk again about our Medical Travel Policy and I’d I think it may be potentially a gap in the like to provide an example of where I system that needs to be addressed, and think there may be a gap. I’d like to question the Minister about it in question period. Thank you, Mr. A patient has been assessed by a Speaker. doctor and it’s deemed they have to travel from one community to come to MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mrs. Yellowknife to have a procedure done – Groenewegen. Colleagues, before we it could be any kind of procedure, it go on today, I’d like to welcome Mr. Roy could be surgery – and it’s deemed that Erasmus, Member of the 13th Legislative they need a non-medical escort. So, a Assembly. Welcome back to the House. friend or a family member is called upon ---Applause to accompany that patient. But when Item 4, returns to oral questions. Item 5, they get to Yellowknife, they find out that recognition of visitors in the gallery. Mr. the procedure or the treatment that’s McLeod. planned is not available at that time. So, the escort is then left in the situation 5) Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery where the patient must stay but the escort needs to get back to their home HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you and to their family. very much, Mr. Speaker. It gives me I want to get to the bottom of a policy great pleasure to recognize my wife of which, to me, seems very unfair. 36 years and, Lord willing, another 36. Someone, out of the goodness of their I’m glad you’re able to join us in the heart, agrees to accompany a patient to Assembly. My wife, Judy. Thank you. Yellowknife, finds out that the stay is MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. going to be too long and they can’t stay McLeod. Mr. Ramsay. for the duration. But when they want to HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, go home, they get told by medical travel, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to welcome all “I’m sorry. If you’re not travelling home visitors to the gallery today. We have with the patient, you’re not eligible to some special guests visiting us from the have your cost covered.” I don’t think October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 20

Yukon. We have the Deputy Premier of MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. the Yukon, the Honourable Elaine Bromley. Mr. Moses. Taylor; her deputy minister, Murray MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Arsenault; and from the Premier’s office, I’d like to welcome a constituent to the Jonas Smith; and I’d also like to House today, Ms. Judy McLeod, and welcome a former Member of the also thank her for all the work that she’s House, Mr. Roy Erasmus; and, again, done with our Beaufort-Delta Health and everybody else who’s with us. Thank Social Services throughout the region. you. It’s very much appreciated. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, MR. I’m not sure if Hilda is still up there or Ramsay. Mr. Lafferty. not, but I want to recognize her and just HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: Mahsi, say that I appreciated curling with her in Mr. Speaker. [Translation] I would also all the government bonspiels over the like to welcome the Deputy Premier years, and I just want to say thanks for from Yukon. I know that she has the her welcoming smile every time we walk ministry of francophone under her. I down the halls to our meetings, know that she has a lot of work, the especially for the out-of-town MLAs same as we do, and I want to express when they come here. my welcome to our House, our Also, Mr. Murray Arsenault, a one-time Assembly. Mahsi. Inuvik resident, welcome to the House. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. To all the other residents and people Lafferty. Mr. Menicoche. joining us today, I hope you enjoy the MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very proceedings. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. much, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to recognize MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. three of my hearts in the gallery today: Moses. Ms. Bisaro. my loving partner, Mr. Lucyanne Kendo; MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. a wonderful stepdaughter, Brittany I, too, although I think Hilda is gone, but Jewel; and my very small grandson, I did want to mention Hilda. She has Kayleb Black-Villeneuve. Welcome to been a stalwart person in Yellowknife for the gallery. many years, beyond her work in the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Assembly, so I wanted to recognize her Menicoche. Mr. Bromley. work here and her commitment to the MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. community. Speaker. I’d like to recognize constituent I’d also like to recognize Ms. Elaine Roy Erasmus. At least for the next Taylor. We have had some meetings couple of months he’s a constituent of over the years. Also all the other Weledeh. So, welcome to the House. representatives here from the Yukon. As I’d also like to welcome the visitors from Mr. Moses said, it’s great to have the Yukon. You know, we don’t get communication between Yukon and nearly enough east-west interaction, so I NWT, Whitehorse and Yellowknife. really appreciate the visitors joining us in Welcome to everyone. the House and visiting Yellowknife. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. Mahsi. Bisaro. Mr. Hawkins. October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 21

MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you. Speaker. They’ve been recognized a I’d also just like to make a comment on few times, but I certainly wouldn’t mind Hilda Camirand and what a cheerful underscoring it just one more time at good morning we get as we go down the least a little further. I’d like to recognize Ministers’ corridor to our meetings in the Deputy Minister Arsenault. I’ve gotten to morning and just for being the know him over the last few years. I encouraging and supportive person that really admire his hard work. He’s had a she is. When I look around the staff and great relationship with the Northwest when I look around the Members, there Territories and I’m very thankful that we are not a lot of people who predate have someone in the Yukon who Minister Miltenberger’s and my arrival understands our problems as we learn here. Mr. Schauerte is one of them. about theirs. I couldn’t think of a better Hilda is one of them. There are not very team to take on the challenges in many, and Hilda’s been there for a long Ottawa than our good folks in the gallery time. She’s an institution and much here today, so thank you for your appreciated by everyone. presence and, also, thank you for being MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mrs. a partner on our side, because we’re Groenewegen. I’d like to welcome certainly on your side too when we everybody here in the public gallery. challenge Ottawa. Thank you for taking an interest in our MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. proceedings. Hawkins. Mr. Yakeleya. Item 6, acknowledgements. Item 7, oral MR. YAKELEYA: Thank you, Mr. questions. Mr. Yakeleya. Speaker. I, too, would like to recognize and thank all the visitors to the 6) Oral Questions Assembly here. I want to name, of course, Hilda. She’s not here, but I also QUESTION 909-17(5): want to thank her. Hilda is family. She’s HOUSING IN FORT GOOD HOPE my first cousin. One of the things that I MR. YAKELEYA: Thank you, Mr. want to say is when I walk down the Speaker. I’d like to ask the question to hallway into the office, Hilda always the Minister of the Housing Corporation. says, “No, no, this is how you do it. Why are there so many empty houses in You’ve got to do this, this and that.” So Fort Good Hope and how many empty she keeps me on the straight and houses are there in Fort Good Hope? narrow. I also wanted to congratulate MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. her on her retirement. Yakeleya. The Minister of the Northwest Also, to Mr. Erasmus in the gallery, too, Territories Housing Corporation, Mr. and all the other people from the Yukon McLeod. for visiting us over in the Northwest HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, Territories. Hopefully, one day we’ll get Mr. Speaker. My understanding is we a chance to visit them over there. have an eight-plex in Fort Good Hope. I MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. believe this is what he’s referring to. Yakeleya. Mrs. Groenewegen. That is empty. I think we’re in the process of selling that particular unit. I think we have another eight units that October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 22 we might be in talks with the local dispose of these empty units, knowing government about taking on these units. that Fort Good Hope has a long list of MR. YAKELEYA: The Minister is potential tenants who want to go into correct on the eight-plex that is sitting these units and there’s overcrowding. empty and in the process of selling it in It’s causing health issues; it’s causing the community. I’m not too sure where it social issues and people want to get into will be going to or which organization or these units. person. It’s been there for a while. Is the Minister actively looking at an Why is it taking so long to dispose of expedient process where these empty this empty unit while there are a lot of units can either be retrofitted by the people on the waiting list? Why are the local community organizations or be torn empty units still sitting there while there down? Like the Minister said, in the old are a lot of people on the waiting list to days it was good because you could go get into these units? What can we do to in there, knock the houses down and expedite this situation so that we can build a new one. Now we seem to have put people into houses rather than have more bureaucratic red tape costing us them in other houses where more, so it’s more difficult to replace overcrowding is a major health issue? these units or sell them off to the local government. People want these empty HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Every units filled either by building new ones community has an allotment of public or tearing them down. housing, and as we take the units out of stock, we have a disposal plan. We try Is the Minister looking at an expedient to sell off the unit if we can. Those that process for this to happen in Fort Good we dispose of, with the new WSCC Hope? regulations we have to do a hazardous HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: This eight- material assessment and abatement plex that’s in Fort Good Hope, I’ll get the before we’re able to dispose of those update on that and share it with the units. So it’s added on a tremendous Member. I’m not sure where we’re at cost to our ability to dispose of many of with that. these units. The Member and I were As far as the other units go, I’d have to having a conversation where, back in get an update on those. If there are the day, they’d just come in with a some there that we deem are write-offs, backhoe, take the unit down and haul it we will sell them if people want to take off to the garbage dump. We don’t have them on and try to do some renovations that ability anymore. So we’re trying to themselves. We’ve had that done in the come up with the funding to… It’s past. I’ll get an update on all of the units almost double or even triple the cost in that are in Fort Good Hope and the some cases, so we’re challenged that status and where we’re at with those. way and our aggressive disposal plan is not as aggressive as it used to be. So Again, we’re challenged by the fact that we’re taking steps to try and address we have to do an assessment and that. Thank you. remediate a lot of these units before we dispose of them. Thank you. MR. YAKELEYA: Certainly, the Minister and I were speaking this morning on why it’s taking so long to October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 23

MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. new replacement public housing in the McLeod. Final, short supplementary, Mr. communities. We’re faced with many Yakeleya. challenges and we’ve continued to try MR. YAKELEYA: Thank you, Mr. and address those. We understand that Speaker. There is a TV program called it is an issue across the NWT, so we’re Clean House where they come in and looking at taking on that challenge head they take all the junk out of the house on. Thank you. and people sometimes have a hard time MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. letting go of some of their junk in the McLeod. Member for Weledeh, Mr. house. It’s almost like this Housing Bromley. Corporation is letting go of some of their junk in the House here. So, I know this QUESTION 910-17(5): can be done because in my hometown ENERGY EFFICIENCY ACT of Tulita the Housing actually did a very MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. good job of turning over these empty Speaker. My questions today are for the units to the community corporation real Minister of Public Works and Services. estate. They actually bought these units, I’d like to follow up on his statement fixed them up and rented them out. yesterday. Can this happen in Fort Good Hope Yesterday the Minister gave a statement where the Housing Corporation can go outlining some of the things we have and say these units can be turned over done to reduce energy consumption, to the community? The community is and I was pleased to hear the progress waiting to purchase these, build them that’s been made. However, until a long and get these young couples into these overdue energy efficiency act is in houses. That’s what they’re waiting for. place, our performance as a territory will So, can the Minister clean house on this be hit and miss. issue? We know that an act is not about to HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you. happen during the life of this Assembly, We’d love to clean house, but again, but the Minister at least promised a we’re faced with some of the challenges discussion paper towards such an act, of the proper assessment and but where is the promised document for remediation. We would be more than our review? Mahsi. pleased to sell these units to a MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. community group as we did in Tulita and Bromley. Minister of Public Works, Mr. they took on responsibility of those Beaulieu. units. I think they were in the process of renovating them and they would rent HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. them out and they would collect the Speaker. I don’t have the information revenues. We’re more than willing to here in the House with me on how far partner with communities where we along the department is in producing a have a lot of these vacant units, and if discussion paper for the Assembly. I will there’s an opportunity for them to take talk to Public Works today to find out if I those off our hands and fix them can get an update for the Members in themselves, then we have other the House and provide that early next opportunities to possibly look at putting week. Thank you. October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 24

MR. BROMLEY: I’m not quite sure MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. what to say here. The Minister seems to Moses. Minister of Health, Mr. be unaware of this, and yet this is Abernethy. fundamental to reducing our energy HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, costs and so on. Mr. Speaker. We have a fairly positive Will the promised discussion paper be working relationship with the NWT ready… I can’t even ask the rest of my Seniors’ Society and we have provided question, so I’ll have to stop here, Mr. funding for some meetings and some of Speaker. The Minister doesn’t have any the functions that they’re undertaking. information. I’ll have to say I’m very With respect to facilitating the exact type disappointed. We need our government of meeting that the Member is talking to be on top of these important issues. about, I will talk to the department to find Mahsi. out where we are with those kinds of MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. That was supports and I will get back to the more of a comment. Mr. Moses. Member. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. MOSES: In terms of an action QUESTION 911-17(5): plan, I know there is a Seniors’ REGIONAL SENIORS’ Handbook that’s out in the communities. MEETINGS Can I ask the Minister, is there an action MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. plan for seniors? As he heard here Just following up to my Member’s today, there are housing issues and statement earlier, and there are some even issues in terms of long-term care really good Ministers’ statements here facilities and beds. Is there an action as well. One was from Justice in terms plan for our senior population over the of using an elder in some of our work next five, the next 10 years? One of my that we’re going to be doing in the colleagues mentioned the increased traditional healing and enlisting population, you know, five years from Aboriginal elders in the aspects of their now, 11 years from now, even further culture and traditions, focusing on down the road. Is there an action plan to traditional healing in the corrections address some of these issues moving facility. Also, when I mentioned that forward? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. meeting that we had in Inuvik, we had HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: We don’t discussions of the regional wellness have an action plan per se. What we do councils, and elders who were there have is Our Elders: Our Communities spoke up and said that they would really framework which focuses on seven love to be on those regional councils, as different priority areas: healthy and well, but they had a lot of concerns, and active aging; home and community care I guess, just the whole aspect of having services; integrated and coordinated that regional meeting. services across the continuum; getting I’d like to ask the Minister responsible people to work together, as the Member for Seniors, what is his department has described; caregiver supports; doing to create more regional meetings elder-responsive communities is another like this throughout the Northwest initiative that we’re working on with Territories? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. communities and partners; and ensuring that there are sustainable and best October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 25 practices available for all of the care services and programs we are talking providers and residents of the Northwest about are ultimately for them and it’s Territories. important to make sure they are We are also working on the engaged. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. development of an NWT Continuing MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Care Service Delivery Action Plan which Abernethy. Final, short supplementary, will focus on facilities and where we Mr. Moses. need to be building facilities, recognizing MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. the large increase of seniors we are As we come to an end in the 17th going to be seeing over the next number Legislative Assembly, would the Minister of years. This project is going to help us responsible ensure that this is a priority figure out when, where and how to build of the 18th Assembly? Would he commit facilities to meet those needs. So, there that our seniors’ issues, such as elder are a number of different things abuse, housing and services in some of happening, Mr. Speaker. the small communities are a priority in MR. MOSES: My experience that I had the 18th Assembly so when the new at the meeting over the summer, just government comes in, they can hit the being in attendance – I wasn’t there for road running and address some of the all the three days, but I sat in and issues our elders are dealing with? listened to some of the discussions – Thank you, Mr. Speaker. and the passion and concern of these HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: This is elders speaking up and not really having obviously an incredibly important issue the confidence. Within government and in the Northwest Territories, especially other areas of leadership, something recognizing the rate in which our seniors needs to be done so that with the populations are increasing. It’s Continuing Care Action Plan that the something I have asked to be included Minister is discussing, would he on the Cabinet’s transition document so welcome some of the senior populations it is brought forward to the future from the regions to sit in on the government. If I’m fortunate enough to discussion of an action plan to help to be back, whether I’m on that side of the address the real issues in the small House or on this side of the House, it’s communities and at the regional level? still a priority for me and would continue Thank you, Mr. Speaker. to be a priority for me. Thank you, Mr. HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: As I’ve Speaker. indicated previously, we have a really MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. positive working relationship with the Abernethy. Member for Frame Lake, NWT Seniors’ Society, who represents Ms. Bisaro. seniors from across the Northwest Territories and the board actually has QUESTION 912-17(5): representatives from people from across DEH CHO BRIDGE PROJECT the Territories. We work closely with REVIEW them and are always seeking their input MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. and guidance. I am happy to meet with My questions today are for the Minister seniors’ societies across the Northwest of Transportation. I would like to follow Territories to get their input. The up on my Member’s statement and ask October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 26 some questions about the Deh Cho commitment in the House to do a Bridge review, which is apparently not retrospective analysis and then there now coming. I would like to ask the was a decision by the executive, by a Minister, first of all, if he could please Minister and I guess the rest of Cabinet, explain to me the answer that I got from not go through with this. him that he and Cabinet had decided So my question is again, which I think that the public did not deserve a report the Minister chose to ignore, what is the which had been promised by the value of promise by government? previous Transportation Minister in 2011. The Minister mentioned a whole bunch of documents. I have a list here that is I have to ask him, what is the value of probably about six or so documents, but the promise of government and why did why should the public have to go you decide the public did not deserve searching all over the website, all over the analysis that was promised? Thank the GNWT public site looking for you. documents to find out why this project MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. didn’t proceed as planned? I would like Bisaro. Minister of Transportation, Mr. to ask the Minister, in that particular Beaulieu. instance, where is it – I know there is no HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Mahsi cho, Mr. spot – that the public can go to get a Speaker. I don’t believe I said that the fully inclusive retrospective analysis of community or the public did not deserve the Deh Cho Bridge Project. I don’t a retrospective analysis. I indicated that believe it’s there. There is no one report we had done some work with the which covers everything and I want to Auditor General in looking at the bridge ask the Minister why that is not there. at the point when we took the bridge Thank you. over from another project authority and HON. TOM BEAULIEU: We do have changed the contractor. We also had a that information on our DOT website. report done by independent people, the We felt that individuals who wish to Levelton Report that was done from the determine what the issues were could time the bridge started until we took find that information in a lot of different over the bridge, and DOT had done a places. We looked at a retrospective couple of reports on lessons learned. I analysis as a tool for ourselves when we felt that that was sufficient for us to move forward. It appeared that the main move forward using that bridge as issues that people in the House felt that lessons learned on other major projects there was something wrong with the that would be undertaken. It isn’t a Deh Cho Bridge. What we were saying matter of whether or not people is the issue was that the contractor deserved something; it was something changed midstream, that the project we felt we could work with the authority changed in midstream. That is information we had to move forward. what seemed to be the issue. Thank you. As far as the department goes, we felt MS. BISARO: Thanks to the Minister. I we did a very good job. We put a project didn’t suggest that… I think it was my in that is very valuable to this city, statement that the public didn’t get what valuable to the people of the Northwest they deserved. It was a public Territories. It makes travel a lot easier October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 27 and we felt it was a very good piece of and specific to the building of the bridge. infrastructure. It appears as though I don’t have a problem with that. My individuals are indicating that that may problem is what lessons were learned not be such a good piece of from the very inception of the bridge infrastructure. We put information project. Thank you. together from lessons learned so we HON. TOM BEAULIEU: I don’t know could do a better job on other projects, specifically which lessons were learned but it wasn’t something that would be from the very inception of the Deh Cho there for the individuals to see and say Bridge, but we do have lessons learned. exactly what happened. They are on the website. We have made Everything that happened with the Deh several presentations. The department Cho Bridge was very public. There is of highways and marine division of more information, and if individuals want Department of Transportation made a specific to what they are saying what presentation on the Deh Cho Bridge they see as an issue, they can make lessons learned. That is on the website. that request. Members can make that Retrospective Lessons Learned on the request and we’ll comply. Thank you. Deh Cho Bridge, again prepared by the MS. BISARO: I don’t believe I was Department of Transpiration, is on our suggesting that the bridge was not a website. The Auditor General’s report is good project. By the time the also on the website. We charted out the government took over the project, I recommendations of the Auditor believe it was extremely well managed General’s report. Thank you. and it has become an excellent piece of MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. infrastructure. That’s not the issue. The Beaulieu. Final, short supplementary, issue is that the project started under a Ms. Bisaro. veil of suspicion and it continued under MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. that veil of suspicion for quite some I have to say to the Minister that the only time. lessons that were learned were from the There is no analysis, to my mind, that’s review team project. I quote from their been done, looking at all the documents report: “The analysis was based on the I got from the Minister. There’s nothing experience of the delivery team, and that looks at the project from its many more parts that included political, inception from the 15th Assembly when it financial and legal issues were not was first discussed, from the transition looked at.” th th from the 15 to the 16 when the I have to ask the Minister, will he, once contract was signed and then on into the again, commit and fulfill the promise that th 16 until the government took it over. was made by the previous Minister of There is nothing which I can go to or Transportation and provide one report, a direct the public to go where they can fully thorough and analyzed and see what sorts of things happened and retrospective analysis of the Deh Cho what went wrong. Bridge Project from inception to I would like to ask the Minister, there completion? were lessons to be learned, absolutely. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: I can have that The lessons that were learned by the discussion with the department again. department were from a review team October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 28

We felt like there was no real value in right now, at least 50 on their waiting list continuing to do a retrospective with nowhere to go. analysis. We are busy. There are a lot of I want to ask the Minister of Health and projects on the go, and the department Social Services, what are the delays felt that with the retrospective lessons that are stopping this government from learned and the Deh Cho Bridge making a formal commitment to address lessons learned, the Levelton Report the seniors population problem and before we took over and the Auditor provide Avens with the necessary tools General’s report at the point we took so they can provide the solutions for over were sufficient for us to move those seniors who need places to go? forward, was sufficient to provide information. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The Minister of Health, Mr. The Member is correct; that doesn’t Abernethy. cover the financial and the political perspective of what occurred with the HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, bridge, and I’m prepared to put that Mr. Speaker. I agree with the numbers information together to provide it to the that the Member has put forward. I Member or put it on the website. mean, they are department numbers. There is no question that the degree of MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. increase of seniors in the Northwest Beaulieu. Colleagues, before we go on Territories is going to be significant over today, I’d like to welcome back to the the next number of years, but it isn’t just Assembly Mr. Derek Tremblay, our a Yellowknife problem; it’s a territorial former head of security here. Welcome problem and we have to look at this with back to the Assembly, Derek. a territorial lens. Mr. Hawkins. We have been putting new beds for long-term care facilities in the Northwest QUESTION 913-17(5): Territories. We will have 18 beds in EXPANSION OF AVENS Norman Wells. We are going to have SENIORS’ FACILITY nine more beds in Behchoko, and we MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. have put new beds in the Territories Speaker. As I said in my Member’s over the last number of years, including statement today – and I gave the facts the Dementia Facility. At the same time, and the numbers, and even the GNWT’s we are also partnering with the NWT numbers through their partnership with Housing Corporation that is putting in the researcher on Avens – the study independent living units throughout the Where to Go and What to Do, one thing Northwest Territories, five in the life of is clear: a tsunami of seniors is coming this government. That will make space and there’s nowhere for them to run. available. As I said in my statement, if the capacity We are focusing on Our Elders: Our was similar to a school, where once a Communities, which is an aging in place school hit 75 percent full, it triggers a strategy to help encourage and help renewal of the school whether through support people who want to live in their renovation or a building of a new school, homes. but yet we have no policy or solution for the seniors. Avens is 100 percent full October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 29

All that said, we know we need working with them to utilize the additional beds, and over the last two extended care needs and an extended years we have been working very care facility here in Yellowknife as an closely with Avens, exploring a number option to help them leverage some of different alternative financing options money to build their long-term care to support the pavilion project which will facility. At that time, that was declined increase the number of units or beds in by the board. I’m happy to say that the the Northwest Territories significantly. board has actually re-engaged and they We are committed to finding a solution. are now interested in having dialogue We will find a solution and we will find a and discussion about the possibility of way to support Avens as we move merging those two opportunities, and it forward on that project. It’s an important is certainly something that we’re open project that needs to happen. to. MR. HAWKINS: It couldn’t be said As I’ve said, we work very closely with better than by the Canadian Medical Avens. We’re in the process right now of Association president, Cindy Forbes. actually taking all the work that’s been She talks about the growing rate of pulled together to figure out how we can seniors. She also references the cost, move forward and exploring all the where it costs $1,000 a day, on different financing options that have average, in Canada to hospitalize and been presented to us by Avens and hold seniors. Whereas if you find other groups to make this a reality. As partners like Avens, it comes at a I’ve said, this is incredibly important. We fraction of that price. She estimates need to make this happen. We’re average cost in Canada at fifty. Now, I working with our partners. We’re going know these are southern costs, but the to continue to work with our partners ratio is the point, not the actual dollar and we will find a way to make this number. Why is the government not pavilion project a reality. realizing that? MR. HAWKINS: Avens presently has My next question is: When will this 29 beds. They want to extend it to 60, government be willing to finally step up and of course, they have bigger plans and address the Avens problem, which than that. But you know what? They see is an NWT problem because there are a what’s in the near future. They’ve got lot of seniors there from the Northwest over 50 on their waiting list. I won’t go Territories, not just Yellowknife. In other on at length, but our population is words, when will this government be growing to 184 percent in five more willing to step forward to make that final years. We’re not meeting the demands. commitment to address the We couldn’t start the planning, reviewing overpopulation of seniors and the and building and meet that challenge inability to meet those needs? that’s presented to us in five years if we HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: As I’ve did something today. indicated, we’ve been working very Again, I’m going to ask the Minister, closely with Avens over the last few when is the government going to make years. We’ve even presented options a formal commitment so Avens can and they’ve presented options back. At march forward on this particular project? one point in time, we were talking about We cannot wait anymore. Catastrophe October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 30 is on the doorstep of seniors. Who is wait any longer. As I started, and I’m going to take responsibility for this tragic going to finish, this tsunami of seniors is end? on our doorstep and they’re crashing HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: At the away because they’ve got nowhere else current time on the Territorial to go. They demand their government to Admissions Committee list for Avens we act. have 13 people on the wait-list to get HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: As the into the Avens facility, so there is clearly Member indicated in his opening a need. We know that when the facility comments and following up with his in Norman Wells and the facility in questions, Avens is a territorial facility Behchoko opens, we may have some and it has a number of people from opportunity to move some people back across the Northwest Territories. As we to their initial or home communities, make beds available in Norman Wells, which we are hoping will take off some as we make additional beds available in of the immediate need on Avens. Behchoko, we do believe, and we have But at that same time, as I’ve indicated, a fairly solid understanding, that some of and I’m going to indicate again, we’re these individuals will move. That will working very closely with Avens. We take off some of the temporary demand have a number of options and on Avens, but it doesn’t eliminate the opportunities in front of us. We need to demand. I’ve acknowledged that today. explore them and we will come to an We are working very closely with Avens. agreement with Avens, and at that time We will continue to work very closely we will be prepared to make with Avens, exploring all the possibilities announcements on when and how we’re and financing options. We’re committed going to move forward. to getting this done and we will get this MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. done. There will be an expansion to Abernethy. Final, short supplementary, Aven Pavilion, and we believe it will be Mr. Hawkins. done in the appropriate time, given resources, timing and agreements with MR. HAWKINS: Territorial-wide, Avens. territorial-wide, the growth in five years in seniors is going to be at 150 percent. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister All the beds that have been created Abernethy. The Member for Deh Cho, today and all the beds they think that Mr. Nadli. they’re going to create tomorrow still won’t meet that demand. The Minister QUESTION 914-17(5): can say we’re going to shuffle seniors NWT ADDICTIONS TREATMENT around the room, around the territory to FACILITY solve the problem. It is not meeting the MR. NADLI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. challenge. My questions are to the Minister of Will the Minister just be honest in this Health and Social Services. Addictions House to say are they going to make an and its effects in the NWT are a big agreement with Avens and when, problem. It’s sad to see many of our because they cannot wait any longer. I people struggle, and like many, we are can’t wait any longer. The seniors can’t compelled to try to do something. Chief Roy Fabian and his council on the October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 31

K’atlodeeche First Nation were trying to 2014 where they brought residents from do that. We have an unused and empty across the Northwest Territories facility on that reserve. together to discuss possible options, not Will the Minister commit to working with including a treatment facility but a Chief Fabian and his council to consider wellness centre, a training centre for reopening the treatment centre? Mahsi. mental health and addictions, a spiritual centre for Aboriginal people, as well as MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Nadli. possibly the home location of what will Minister of Health, Mr. Abernethy. be the future of a mobile treatment HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, option. All of these seem reasonable. Mr. Speaker. In 2011 the Nats’ejee K’eh We discussed those with the chief at the Board funded an organizational review, time. Even the chief, at the time, which made many observations about indicated that they did not want to open the issues at the facility that impacted a facility; the facility they had had too negatively on programs, clients and many challenges and even their board staff. We worked closely with the board were the ones who directed that it be to try to find some solutions. shut. Unfortunately, they were unable to I’m absolutely interested in having a implement any of the solutions to relationship with KFN to find a way to improve the situation there. use that building outside of a dedicated In 2013 the executive director advised treatment facility and we will continue to that no further intakes should take place work with KFN to do that. Thank you. due to the risk of client safety in that MR. NADLI: I’d like to thank the particular facility. When that happened, Minister for his reply. Can the Minister we were in no other position than to expand the fundamental issues in terms withdraw funding from that facility and of having customized made-in-the-NWT prioritize it into other areas that it was treatment programs? Can the Minister going to meet immediate demands. explain to this House the cost We recognize, as I said the other day, deficiencies in terms of having that the people of the Northwest customized addictions programs here in Territories want a continuum and a the NWT versus sending people down range of services, including on-the-land south? Mahsi. programming, community treatment, HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you. community counselling-type treatment in At any given time here in the Northwest communities. We’ve offered the Matrix Territories, even when Nats’ejee K’eh program and we have contracts with was in fact opened as a territorial four southern facilities that are providing treatment facility, we have those services that we’ve never been approximately 12 people in treatment at able to get through facility-based any given time. As I explained earlier treatment here in the Northwest this week, we have 12 people going out Territories. and they’re going to a wide range of Having said all that, I have been working programs that we haven’t had in the with the chief of the KFN to try to find a past. Nats’ejee K’eh offered one sole solution for that building. We’ve funded program. We have a women’s facility; them $44,000 to hold a workshop in we have a men’s facility; we have a October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 32 facility focused on narcotics and other Matrix, which are community-based drugs. treatment programs with no facility that What we do know is at this time those are being delivered around the facilities in the South are costing us Northwest Territories by Northerners for around $150 a day for a wide range of Northerners. programs we’ve never been able to We have responded to the Minister’s offer, whereas Nats’ejee K’eh was Forum on Mental Health and Addictions, costing us $420 per person per day, which was very clear, a wide range of which is significantly higher for a very programs, options that are available and limited program where people and we have moved down that road. clients were not safe. Thank you. I still think the facility, the Nats’ejee K’eh MR. NADLI: In the NWT we pride facility, has a great opportunity to ourselves on made-in-the-North provide some service, whether it’s a solutions and we always try to be wellness centre, whether it’s a training independent in terms of trying to aspire centre, whether it’s a spiritual centre of to make things work here for us. some capacity, something that is going Why can’t we have our own people treat to benefit all people of the Northwest our own people in addictions to help Territories, and we’re open to having them recover and at least reach a those discussions with KFN. We just productive life in communities and in the don’t feel that, at this point, re- NWT? Mahsi. establishing it as a treatment facility that has failed over and over again is going HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: We do do to provide any benefit to the people of that. As I indicated, when the Minister’s the Northwest Territories. Thank you. Forum on Mental Health and Addictions went out, we heard a number of things: MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. made-in-the-North solutions, on-the-land Abernethy. Final, short supplementary, programming, community counselling, Mr. Nadli. all sorts of different options. People MR. NADLI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. wanted a variety and a range of It’s very clear and there’s no denying programs. Facility-based treatment is that we have a huge addictions problem only one of those options. in the North. We provide money to different Will the Minister admit that we do have a Aboriginal governments and problem and that the treatment centre is organizations around the Northwest one solution and that the treatment Territories to have custom made, centre should be reopened? Mahsi. regionally specific, culturally appropriate HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: There’s no made-in-the-North programs for our question that we have challenges here residents and those programs are in the Northwest Territories with mental seeing some positive results. We also health and addictions. Addictions is have community counselling positions rampant throughout the Northwest and many NGOs who are doing Territories, and in direct response to the incredible work across the Northwest Minister’s Forum on Mental Health and Territories with a real focus on the Addictions, we’re taking the actions that North. We also have programs like the were directed by the people of the October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 33

Northwest Territories, who said support QUESTION 915-17(5): on-the-land programming, get MEDICAL ESCORT TRAVEL community counsellors in the POLICY communities and regions, make sure MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you, that we have a wide range of programs Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the and options. Treatment facilities are but Minister of Health and Social Services one, and in the Northwest Territories, as well. In my Member’s statement treatment facilities have failed every today, I talked about a scenario that time that we have tried to open one. could occur where a non-medical escort They’ve failed because of staffing accompanies a patient to Stanton, or I reasons, high cost, $420 per day suppose it could be to Edmonton, and compared to southern facilities at $155, they get there and the programed safety issues that were clearly treatment for the patient changes for articulated, and underutilization. some reason and the person who is the These facilities in the South are run and non-medical escort, out of the goodness successful because they can maintain a of their heart, has probably taken time very, very large number of clients at any off work and is there doing this as an given time. Poundmaker’s can take unpaid service. between 80 and 100 people, which When the program changes and the helps them bring in psychologists, person who is the escort needs to go psychiatrists and permanent staff who home, what are their options for that can really work with the clients. We cost being covered? Thank you. don’t have that capacity. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mrs. So I’m not going to commit to reopening Groenewegen. Minister of Health, Mr. Nats’ejee K’eh as a treatment facility. I Abernethy. will commit to working with the community to finding a use for that HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, facility that will benefit all people, Mr. Speaker. When an individual travels something like a wellness centre, a as a medical escort with a patient, training centre for mental health and there’s an expectation that they will stay addictions, or a home location for what with that particular person. We do know will be our mobile treatment option at that we have people going out for really some point in the future, but not reopen long periods of time and we actually it as a treatment facility again because have a policy that says after 21 days we’ve failed and we’ll continue to fail. escorts can swap out and we cover We don’t have the capacity. Let’s do those costs. However, if an escort wants something that’s actually for the benefit to leave before the designated swap-out of our people rather than just result in person, they are technically on the hook another failure. Thank you. for recovering the costs. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Now, we do recognize that the situation Abernethy. The Member for Hay River the Member is describing has happened South, Mrs. Groenewegen. and can happen. So, we do have an extenuating circumstances policy in place that says if you go and something happens, like the patient’s stay is October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 34 extended and it adversely affects the the patient, you are on your own hook,” escort, we can work with them to make and at the last minute they needed to sure that they wouldn’t necessarily have get home and had to pay full fare for to pay back. But if they choose and their ticket and so on. So, are the people there are no extenuating circumstances, who issue the tickets in medical travel they’re on the hook. Thank you. aware of the fact that they can approve MRS. GROENEWEGEN: That is good return flights under those news to hear, that under extenuating circumstances? Do they have the circumstances the escort could find a authority to grant that? Thank you. way home at the government expense. HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: We are If an escort is only accompanying a trying to ensure that all of our staff are patient for a procedure or a surgery or up to date, they understand the policies, something that’s only anticipated to be a they understand the policies that exist. day or two, they may have agreed to it We are actually doing a medical travel on those grounds, but if it turns out to be review and modernization to improve a longer period of time, how would that the medical travel experience. One of escort then, without having to pay out of the things that we’re doing is focusing their own pocket, access that return on client service and making sure that ticket? How would they do it? What’s the all of our medical travel staff have gone process? Who is going to determine through and are certified as customer what the extenuating circumstances service agents, which means they will are? How long is that going to take to be able to work better with our clients. get approved? Those sorts of things. Thank you. In the case the Member is describing, I would certainly be happy to look at it to HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: As in all make sure everything worked out, or if it cases, we would obviously need some didn’t, we can fix it to make sure it confirmation from the medical doesn’t happen again. We are trying to practitioner that the patient’s reality has ensure our staff are trained. We are changed. So the individual would have trying to ensure they understand the to work with the patient to get some policies. We are trying to ensure they recognition from the practitioner which know what latitude they have. But at the could then be shared with the medical end of the day, everything around travel staff who can actually facilitate the medical travel is going to require some return ticket or rebooking. How long it sort of medical practitioner’s takes really depends on their ability to recommendation for changes, so we still get the information to the medical staff, need to make sure that the medical but we can make those things happen system is involved. Thank you, Mr. pretty fast. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Speaker. MRS. GROENEWEGEN: How much MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. latitude does the person who works in Abernethy. Final, short supplementary, medical travel who issues travel tickets Mrs. Groenewegen. have and are they aware of the discretion they have? In a real life case MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you, that I know of, the escort was told, “I’m Mr. Speaker. Like so many other sorry. If you’re travelling home without government policies, this one needs October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 35 common sense and it needs flexibility they are working to link with HR, has the because there are probably lots of times Minister had any success in linking and when somebody is going to be an escort contacting students with jobs that we for a patient, if they are going for 21 potentially have in the Northwest days or more, in all likelihood it may not Territories? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. be practical or it may not be necessary MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. for that escort to stay with that patient Bouchard. Minister of Education, Mr. for that entire time. It may just be Lafferty. required that they travel with them, make sure they are delivered into the HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: Mahsi, hands of a health care practitioner down Mr. Speaker. We have made some there and they may not need someone changes to our SFA application to stay. You’re not travelling with the guidelines, and having a student’s patient so your expenses aren’t covered consent was a barrier over the past isn’t a very good answer from medical several years now to linking the travel. I don’t know what my question is, students with the employers and except let’s make it real, let’s make it working with HR. So now we have the common sense and let’s make it simple. opportunity. We have the students’ Thanks. consent to move forward, working very closely with employers and also the HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: I agree Human Resources department. There is completely. That’s what we are trying to also a Facebook page that allows accomplish through medical travel employers to advertise jobs and work modernization. We want to have clear with our department to create rules. We want to make sure people opportunities for our students. understand their obligations under the rule and understand the Medical Travel Again, in partnership with Human Policy, that they understand their roles, Resources, there is information sharing both as a professional and as a recipient and some employment through the and that it has the human component Northwest Territories about employment built in. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. opportunities. These are the changes we’ve made. We have heard from MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Members in the past and now we are Abernethy. Member for Hay River North, moving forward on that. It is making Mr. Bouchard. progress within our application guidelines. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. QUESTION 916-17(5): EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES MR. BOUCHARD: Can I clarify a FOR question with the Minister? So, now we POST-SECONDARY have the checkmark in the application, GRADUATES currently we have the ability to contact those students when we have job MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. positions from HR? We can contact the Speaker. As a follow-up to my Member’s students that these are the positions we statement, I will have questions to the currently have in the Northwest Minister of Education, Culture and Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Employment. As I indicated, and the Minister has indicated in the past that October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 36

HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: That’s MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. correct. We didn’t have the checkmark Lafferty. Final, short supplementary, Mr. prior to making those changes. Now we Bouchard. do have the students’ consent to allow MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. them to explore opportunities in the Speaker. I’m just wondering if the Northwest Territories and creating Minister can give me more information opportunities for them through the or indicate to me whether we are linked employers. So, yes, we are making to all other departments in the NWT, progress in that respect. We want to Justice, HR, Housing, some of those attract those students who return to the positions where we know we need a Northwest Territories, whether it’s an certain skill set that we want, not just for apprenticeship or other professional highly educated people but also for areas, and provide opportunities for tradespeople. Are we linked to all the them. That’s our overall priority. Thank sectors and all the private sectors? Can you, Mr. Speaker. the private sector come to us and say MR. BOUCHARD: Sounds great, Mr. we would like to put this job out to the Speaker. Has the department made students of the Northwest Territories? those contacts with HR? Have we Are we able to take that information and started to make the links of linking those pass it on to our students? Thank you, students with potential positions in the Mr. Speaker. future, linking up what the students are HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: Since currently taking with what we have in we got the consent from the students, our inventory of positions in the now we have the dialogue with the Northwest Territories? Thank you, Mr. interdepartmental discussion we are Speaker. having, whether it’s the Housing HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: That’s Corporation, the housing maintainers or exactly what is happening between our any other positions within departments two departments. Also keep in mind that and also outside the Government of the there is the employer aspect that we Northwest Territories, private agencies need to work with. We are dealing with and public agencies as well. So those upwards of 1,600 students and we need are discussions we are currently having to identify who is graduating when, what since we got consent from the students. kind of positions should be available to Yes, we are having the dialogue with the them in the Northwest Territories. Not respective parties within the Northwest just the GNWT, but other prospects and Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. partnership opportunities within the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Northwest Territories. There is also Lafferty. Mr. Dolynny. Skills for Success, improving employment success in the Northwest QUESTION 917-17(5): Territories. That’s another initiative on PROTECTED AREAS STRATEGY the go that involves integrated MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. departments to work together to improve Speaker. Without question, the recent those successes. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. announcement of the draft Protected Areas Strategy caught the resource industry by surprise with clear word from October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 37 the resource industry that the Northwest Strategy: “The new strategy represents Territories was no longer safe to do a commitment. The NWT is serious business with. My questions today are about addressing our investment for the Premier. challenges and unlocking the mineral Can the Premier indicate how does this potential of the territory.” recent unchecked announcement from Can the Premier share with the House, the Premier’s Cabinet as a goal to how does this draft Protected Areas conserve 40 percent of the NWT’s land Strategy not conflict with our ability to mass support his vision of a strong and unlock dismal mineral exploration prosperous territory? Thank you. numbers? Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. HON. BOB MCLEOD: We have quite a Dolynny. Honourable Premier, Mr. number of strategies. We finished the McLeod. Economic Opportunities Strategy, HON. BOB MCLEOD: Thank you, Mr. Mineral Development Strategy that the Speaker. As a Member, he’s been Member is referring to. We also have a around a long time and should know we Land Use Strategy Framework, and the have had a Protected Areas Strategy Member knows that the lack of that was developed in the 1990s. When investment or the downward turn in devolution occurred, we devolved and mineral exploration is something that’s evolved and we’ve taken that Protected happened across the world. It’s an Areas Strategy and reviewed it and international problem. served our northern priorities. It is a I have said many times that we will have draft document and those have been put balanced development. A priority is to out for discussion. Thank you, Mr. settle land claims, and there will be up Speaker. to 80 percent of land available to MR. DOLYNNY: The Premier is development when it is all said and quoted, “We need a solid framework on done. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. which to build this potential. The Mineral MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Development Strategy is that McLeod. Final, short supplementary, Mr. framework.” Dolynny. So, to the Premier: How is limiting up to MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. 40 percent of land going to support an Speaker. The recent draft Protected increase in mineral exploration? Thank Areas Strategy has been deemed by you. some as a clear indication of this HON. BOB MCLEOD: The appropriate government: we are closed for business. term is “balanced development.” We’ve If indeed some truth, Mr. Speaker, what always said that we would have is the Premier prepared to do within our th development while protecting the land limited time in the 17 Assembly to and environment at the same time. With correct this characterization of his the draft Conservation Strategy, it allows government? Thank you. for up to 80 percent for development. HON. BOB MCLEOD: We have been Thank you, Mr. Speaker. working with a very large group in MR. DOLYNNY: The Premier is also developing this draft plan, so it shouldn’t quoted in the Mineral Development have been a surprise to anybody. We’ve October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 38 reached out and had a number of MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. meetings with the Chamber of Mines, Menicoche. The Minister of Health, Mr. Chamber of Commerce and other Abernethy. organizations. Also, we have to keep in HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, mind that settling the land claims is very Mr. Speaker. As Canadian residents, important. We want to do it as quickly as the residents of Fort Liard can receive possible. There are 144,000 square services anywhere in this country with kilometres of land as part of the interim no cost as long as it’s medically land withdrawal, and once those land necessary. So if they travel down there claims are settled, there’ll be additional for a doctor’s appointment or if they land available. As I said, it’s a draft travel down there for an emergency document and it’ll be a transition situation, those costs are actually document and it will be dealt with in the covered through reciprocal billing. 18th Assembly. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What I believe the Member is talking MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. about is when members of the McLeod. Member for Nahendeh, Mr. community choose to go to Fort Nelson Menicoche. as opposed to going to the health centre, they want their travel covered. QUESTION 918-17(5): Our recommendation is that we use the TRANSFORMATION OF HEALTH health facilities here in the Northwest SERVICES Territories first and that they go to the IN NAHENDEH health centre. If they get a referral out, MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very we do cover those costs, but we don’t much, Mr. Speaker. I just want to follow have an agreement with the up on my Member’s statement wherein I Government of British Columbia to spoke about Fort Liard and Nahanni provide additional services to residents Butte residents accessing health of the Northwest Territories. services in Fort Nelson, BC. I just I have asked my department to have wanted to speak with the Minister of some discussions with BC at the admin Health and Social Services with regards level to figure out what steps would be to that. necessary to do that. We haven’t made He was travelling in my constituency in it very far, unfortunately, and I don’t May. He heard from the residents about really have too much of an update for the type of care that they do get from the Member at this time other than the Fort Nelson. Part of the barrier there is fact that we are looking at it to see what that they’re not being referred there. needs to be done in order to allow us to They’re going there and they have been do some referrals, if possible. using it for decades, but their travel MR. MENICOCHE: When the Minister costs aren’t being covered to go there to talks about using our health services in access that health care. So, I’d like to Fort Liard, that’s an entirely different ask, the Minister had agreed at that time question, because the Minister is well to review it, to work with his officials, to aware of the other concerns with regard see what can be done about accessing to people not trusting or else being the health services in northern BC. dismissed by our Fort Liard Health October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 39 centre, but that’s an entirely different Nelson is they don’t have the ability to issue altogether. refer back to the Northwest Territories What I’m talking about is when Alberta for things like home care, physio, had the Capital Health Services we had occupational therapy or any of the a written agreement to use their additional programs that we provide services, their facilities with our above and beyond what is consistent medevac services, et cetera, and now across this country. they’re called Alberta Health. I’d just like MR. MENICOCHE: I’m very pleased to ask the Minister exactly what type of that at least the department is beginning arrangement or agreement do we the process of trying to understand the currently have with the Government of situation about having Fort Liard and Alberta with regard to health. Nahanni Butte residents having a travel HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: The cost. I think that’s the biggest issue, Government of Alberta, the Alberta because the Minister is right; we do Health Services is our primary partner in have reciprocal billing and we do have the delivery of services. They do most of an agreement throughout the provinces our diagnostics around things like MRIs. that our health care cards are They are the specialists that we send recognized in BC as well as Alberta, but our residents to, and they have a direct it’s just a matter of getting there, seeing link and cooperation with our the services. Like I said, they’ve been practitioners here in the Northwest doing it for decades. They’re familiar Territories and agreements that allow with the doctors and the dentists in them to share information, where those communities in northern BC. appropriate, as long as it falls under the I’d just like to ask the Minister once Health Information Act and the Access again, can be commit to have his to Information. department seriously look at this issue We have agreements in place that allow and see how much further we can go us to work together and refer to them. about delivering health care close to We don’t have those same agreements home to the residents of Fort Liard and with BC. It would take negotiation to set Nahanni Butte? up those types of agreements, and HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: I’m happy we’ve got to do, obviously, cost-benefit to have the department continue and re- analysis on that and make sure that engage in some dialogue with BC to see those agreements are actually going to what it would take, but I do put some provide some value. provisos around that. When a resident In the meantime, I do remind the of the Northwest Territories chooses to Member as well as the residents of the go outside of this province for medical Northwest Territories, and particularly treatment that’s available in this Liard, as you travel outside of the province, we don’t cover that. What Northwest Territories and you do go to we’re talking about now is whether or hospitals or health centres outside of the not we can cover people for referrals, Northwest Territories, those costs are somebody who’s actually accessed and recovered under our reciprocal billing engaged in the system. So not people and you shouldn’t have a cost. Where who are just making choices to travel we’ve run into a difficulty with Fort outside but where there’s been a referral October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 40 or something, we’re certainly willing to 7) Tabling of Documents have those discussions. TABLED DOCUMENT 324-17(5): MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES Abernethy. Final, short supplementary, (OPERATIONS EXPENDITURES), Mr. Menicoche. NO. 2, 2015-2016 MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Certainly, I can say TABLED DOCUMENT 325-17(5): unequivocally on behalf of the residents SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES of Fort Liard and Nahanni Butte that (INFRASTRUCTURE they’re not choosing to go there. It’s just EXPENDITURES), that over time they’ve developed trust NO. 3, 2015-2016 issues about service of health delivery with our own system. But aside from TABLED DOCUMENT 326-17(5): that, if we can develop this base, the LETTER DATED MARCH 13, residents have a working relationship 2014, TO CHAIR, STANDING already. I’m just asking our government, COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT let’s formalize this, let’s work a way OPERATIONS REGARDING around it, let’s continue supporting our COMMITTEE residents getting the proper health and RECOMMENDATIONS – BILL 24: close to home delivery of health care AN ACT TO AMEND THE that they can. LIQUOR ACT HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: We’re TABLED DOCUMENT 327-17(5): committed to providing health and social LETTER DATED SEPTEMBER 5, services in the Northwest Territories as 2014, TO CHAIR, STANDING close to home as possible, and I heard COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT the Member that we have some issues OPERATIONS REGARDING with Liard and the trust issues. I’d say COMMITTEE that it’s going to be important for the RECOMMENDATIONS – BILL 24: future Ministers and the existing Minister AN ACT TO AMEND THE as well as Members to work with our LIQUOR ACT communities to find out how we can overcome some of those trust issues HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Mr. and re-encourage some trust and faith Speaker, I wish to table the following in the system that is available here in four documents, entitled the Northwest Territories. “Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2015-2016;” MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. “Supplementary Estimates Abernethy. The time for question period (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 3, has expired. Item 8, written questions. 2015-2016;” a letter dated March 13, Item 9, returns to written questions. Item 2014, to the chair of the Standing 10, replies to opening address. Item 11, Committee on Government Operations petitions. Item 12, reports of standing regarding committee recommendations and special committees. Item 13, on Bill 24, An Act to Amend the Liquor reports of committees on the review of Act; and a letter dated September 5, bills. Item 14, tabling of documents. Mr. 2014, to the chair, Standing Committee Miltenberger. October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 41 on Government Operations, regarding 8) Notices of Motion committee recommendations on Bill 24, An Act to Amend the Liquor Act. MOTION 49-17(5): DISSOLUTION OF THE MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. 17TH LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Miltenberger. Mr. Ramsay. MR. YAKELEYA: Mr. Speaker, I give TABLED DOCUMENT 328-17(5): notice that on Tuesday, October 6, GNWT RESPONSE TO CR 19- 2015, I will move the following motion: 17(5): REPORT ON THE REVIEW now therefore I move, seconded by the OF THE 2015 REPORT OF THE honourable Member for Thebacha, that AUDITOR GENERAL OF this Legislative Assembly request the CANADA ON CORRECTIONS IN Commissioner of the Northwest THE Territories to dissolve the 17th Assembly NORTHWEST TERRITORIES of the Northwest Territories on October 25, 2015, to permit polling day for a HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, general election to be held on Mr. Speaker. I wish to table the following November 23, 2015; document, entitled “Government of the Northwest Territories Response to and further, that the Speaker transmit Committee Report 19-17(5): Report on this resolution to the Commissioner. the Review of the 2015 Report of the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Auditor General of Canada on Yakeleya. Item 16, notices of motion for Corrections in the Northwest first reading of bills. Item 17, motions. Territories.” Item 18, first reading of bills. Mr. Bouchard. TABLED DOCUMENT 329-17(5): INFORMATION AND PRIVACY 9) First Reading of Bills COMMISSIONER OF THE NWT ANNUAL REPORT 2014-2015 BILL 69: AN ACT TO AMEND THE MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY AND Ramsay. Pursuant to Section 68 of the EXECUTIVE COUNCIL ACT, NO. Access to Information and Protection of 2 Privacy Act, I wish to table the 2014-15 Annual Report, Information and Privacy MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner of the Northwest Speaker. I move, seconded by the Territories. honourable Member for Kam Lake, that Bill 69, An Act to Amend the Legislative I would also like to recognize, Assembly and Executive Council Act, colleagues, Ms. Elaine Keenan Bengts, No. 2, be read for the first time. the Information and Privacy Commissioner of the Northwest MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Territories, who is present in the gallery Bouchard. The motion is in order. To the here today. Thank you for visiting our motion. Legislative Assembly, Ms. Keenan SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question. Bengts. MR. SPEAKER: Question has been Item 15, notices of motion. Mr. called. Motion is carried. Yakeleya. October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 42

---Carried Compensation Act; Bill 49, An Act to Bill 69, An Act to Amend the Legislative Amend the Deh Cho Bridge Act; Bill 56, Assembly and Executive Council Act, Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment No. 2, has had first reading. Act, 2015; Bill 59, Estate Administration Law Amendment Act; Bill 60, An Act to Item 19, second reading of bills. Mr. Amend the Motor Vehicles Act, No. 2; Abernethy. Bill 61, An Act to Amend the Public 10) Second Reading of Bills Airports Act; Bill 62, An Act to Amend the Coroners Act; Bill 63, An Act to BILL 68: Amend the Victims of Crime Act; Bill 64, AN ACT TO AMEND THE An Act to Amend the Co-operative CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES Associations Act; Bill 65, An Act to ACT, NO. 2 Amend the Safety Act; Bill 68, An Act to Amend the Child and Family Services HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Mr. Act, No. 2; Minister’s Statement 221- Speaker, I move, seconded by the 17(5), Sessional Statement; Tabled honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, that Document 281-17(5), Northwest Bill 68, An Act to Amend the Child and Territories Capital Estimates, 2016- Family Services Act, No. 2, be read for 2017; Tabled Document 324-17(5), the second time. Supplementary Estimates (Operations This bill amends the Child and Family Expenditures), No. 2, 2015-2016; and Services Act to remove all references to Tabled Document 325-17(5), the Child and Family Services Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Committee. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Expenditures), No. 3, 2015-2016, with MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Mr. Dolynny in the chair. Abernethy. The motion is in order. To the principle of the bill. 11) Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question. MR. SPEAKER: Question has been CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): I’d like to called. The motion is carried. call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of the committee, Mr. ---Carried Bisaro? Bill 68, An Act to Amend the Child and MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Family Services Act, No. 2, has had We wish to deal with Tabled Document second reading. Mr. Abernethy. 324-17(5), Supplementary Estimates HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Mr. (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2015- Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to 2016; and Tabled Document 325-17(5), waive Rule 69(2) and have Bill 68 Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure moved into Committee of the Whole. Expenditures), No. 3, 2015-2016; and, ---Unanimous consent granted Mr. Chair, we’d like to start with the MR. SPEAKER: Bill 68 is moved into capital estimates, which we did not Committee of the Whole. Item 20, conclude yesterday. Thank you. consideration in Committee of the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Whole of bills and other matters: Bill 45, Ms. Bisaro. Does committee agree? An Act to Amend the Workers’ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 43

CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Alright, infrastructure investments, $44.134 committee. We’ll commence after a million. Does committee agree? Mr. short break. Bromley. ---SHORT RECESS MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Order, A couple of questions here. First of all, I committee. I’d like to call Committee of wonder if I can get an update on the the Whole back to order. With that, we’ll Child and Family Information System. continue on capital estimates as agreed I’m sure a mass of information was upon earlier. With that, I’ll turn it over to provided, but for clarity this is something the Minister responsible for the we’ve been trying to get done since th Department of Health and Social midway through the 16 Assembly. I Services to see if he has any witnesses know we’ve tried a couple of times and that he’d like to bring into the House. failed during this Assembly, even though the money was budgeted. I would be HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Yes. concerned if this was a modification of CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Does the current system, which we know is committee agree? not worth the paper it’s printed on. So SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. I’m just looking for an update on what exactly is involved here with this. I think CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, it’s our third attempt during this committee. Sergeant-at-Arms, if you can Assembly. Thank you. please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Abernethy. Thank you. Minister Abernethy, for the record, if you could please introduce HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, your guests. Mr. Chair. We’re not looking at rebuilding the existing system in any HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you. way, shape or form. We’re actually Here with me today are Debbie moving forward with an all new system. I DeLancey, the deputy minister, on my know that we have begun the internal right; and Derek Elkin, the assistant work, have started on this particular deputy minister, on my left. project, the project planning. Working CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, groups have been assembled, including Mr. Abernethy. Ms. DeLancey, Mr. Elkin, professionals that will be utilizing the welcome back to the House. Committee, system. Communications and change as I indicated, we’re on page 37 with the management work has begun. I can Department of Health and Social also say that we have actually chosen a Services. With that, we’ll start with preferred vendor and we’re currently in general comments. Is committee the process of negotiating the contract. I prepared to go to detail? believe the contract negotiations will be SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. concluded in December, at which point CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you. we will be moving forward with the work Committee, we’ll defer page 37, capital on the new system. estimates. I turn your attention to pages MR. BROMLEY: Thank you for that 38 and 39, capital estimates, update to the Minister. I appreciate that administrative and support services, and I think it sounds like we’re getting October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 44 after it here. So, this is spread over two reports and other reports that were fiscal years. This will be finishing up the conducted on some of those P3 projects system, if that’s what we’re approving and we’ve moved forward, recognizing here today. Thank you. the number of the recommendations HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: There’s that were put forward in those particular money in the current fiscal year that projects. One of the recommendations, I we’re in today and this is money for ’16- believe it was in one of the facilities in 17 that will take us through, hopefully, to Ontario, is that you need to have a hard conclusion of that project. cap on the construction component of the P3 project, and we have a hard cap MR. BROMLEY: Just moving on, and I of around $300 million, maybe slightly know, as a P3 project, the Stanton over $300 million of the P3 project to Territorial Hospital, I’m not sure if it’s a replace Stanton facilities. We also have renewal project, but a new project, is a checks and balances and teams put P3 and, therefore, probably involves together to monitor the progress to Finance as well as Public Works and make sure that we’re getting what we Services. So far we don’t have a good want when we expect to get it, and record for finishing our large some external reviews that will help us infrastructure projects on budget. Most obviously ensure that we are meeting recently, of course, is the Inuvik-Tuk our commitment and the contractor’s Highway, which is half built and already commitment moving forward to make 15 percent above the promised cost. I sure that we get this facility that’s going guess one of the things that we heard to provide high quality services to all the about a lot and that we’ve seen with the residents of the Northwest Territories Mackenzie Valley Fibre Optic Line, for over the next 30 years. example, is what’s termed in the analysis literature on P3 projects as MR. BROMLEY: Thanks to the “cost creep,” where the government Minister. Perhaps just a quick follow-up keeps shifting what the cost is and says on the monitoring teams. I think it’s clear they’re meeting those costs. that we have a record of non- inclusiveness from the government for So, what checks and balances are in Regular MLAs with timely information. place to ensure that the cost of this facility does not go over, like has been What will be the responsibility to get the our experience to date with large reports of the monitoring teams in a infrastructure projects? Thank you. timely manner to all Members of the Legislative Assembly? Thank you. HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: I hear the Member’s concerns around P3 projects HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: I know the and we have, before moving forward Minister of Finance has indicated that with this particular project, reviewed they will be providing updates to other P3s that were done for the committees moving forward. That will be th construction of hospital facilities across in the life of the 18 Assembly. I’m sure the country and there have been some that the standing committees that have worked out not particularly responsible and whoever happens to be well, but we also know that there have on Cabinet will be able to set up a been some that have worked out. We’ve protocol to make sure information is also reviewed the Auditor General’s October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 45 being shared in a timely and appropriate there, part of our GNWT staff that we’re way. losing. Thank you, Mr. Chair. MR. BROMLEY: I appreciate the 18th CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Assembly will have that role as do we. Mr. Bromley. Minister Abernethy. th We are, right now, talking about the 17 HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, Assembly as we set this up and discuss Mr. Chair. It’s projected to be nine this budget. I would like to know there positions that may be affected by this. I will be a commitment to get timely will not give the names and the specifics information from these monitoring teams at this point because we want to give to all Members of the Legislative the CEO at Stanton the opportunity to Assembly. talk to the staff and make sure they are HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: I believe fully informed before we release their the Minister of Finance has already position which will, in fact, identify the made that commitment and we will live individuals. It is nine facilities up to it accordingly. maintenance staff. BHP will be taking MR. BROMLEY: Maybe I could just ask over the facility’s maintenance of the the Minister to commit to finding me project effective 2018 when the facility where that has been documented. officially opens. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, MR. BROMLEY: So there is no other Mr. Bromley. We’ll turn our attention to staff, just the maintenance staff. It will Minister of Finance, Mr. Miltenberger. be all GNWT staff that will be taken over, just for confirmation. Thank you. HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will make it HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: That is on the record here that we will provide correct. There are positions in the facility that information. We will be monitoring today that are contract staff, whether it’s closely the system designed with checks laundry services or food services, and balances to ensure compliance and dietary. Those are going to be part of a high level of implementation. We will BHP’s facilities management and commit to share that with committee building management in the future, but now and on an ongoing basis. they are not GNWT staff. Only nine GNWT positions will be impacted. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Minister Miltenberger, for that I would like to add, Mr. Chair, that this is clarification. Mr. Bromley. a significantly larger facility than the one we have available to us today, and we MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. actually anticipate, in order to provide Thank you to the Minister for that. I the full scope of services that are going would like to know how many GNWT to be in that building, requiring additional personnel are we letting go as a result positions just like we needed additional of this project and do we have any positions in Hay River and other indication of how many of them will be facilities when we’ve constructed them, picked up by the new provider. Is it there will be a number of new positions possible to get a breakdown of those created as a result of this build. according to the various areas? I know there is building maintenance and so on CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, by a very committed bunch of staff Minister Abernethy. Mr. Bromley, if you October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 46 want to be put back on the list, just let a new upgraded facility in the me know. Getting back to questions on community. There are probably some pages 38 and 39 on administrative and needs for that somewhere, but from a support services, I have Mr. Bouchard. regional perspective, people are always MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. looking at that and obviously criticizing Chair. I do have some questions about it. the Stanton Project as well. Obviously, I know Mr. Bromley was asking those there is a bit of a balancing here. We, questions, and the Minister was talking obviously, as Regular Members, had an about staffing, and obviously we have opportunity to walk through Stanton, and an issue in Hay River about our staffing. there is definitely a need for We originally started asking for 33 new improvement to the facility, and talking positions, went down to 21 and then to some of the contractors that were come back and we are about to be bidding on it and were talking about given a lesser amount. Before we get bidding on it, a stand-alone building is too far down the road, we should probably more efficient and a more actually have some of those numbers of effective way to do this project. the staffing that a brand new $350 I guess the difficulty comes in the fact million building is going to add for that in the communities in the regions staffing. I’m assuming that Stanton is we kind of often see that and say, okay, probably similar to the new Hay River well, Yellowknife’s getting a bigger Health Centre where things are health centre. I know it’s a territorial separated and you already need facility, and I appreciate that, but I guess separate staff, so the numbers will some of the difficulty that I’m hearing is maybe be different. In Hay River we’re what’s going to be done with the old seeing a scenario where the ER and hospital. My understanding was that patient care are separate right now, when we build our new facilities, we where they were together before, so build them for the health care only, and we’re seeing that type of increase for then our own facilities, I’ll use Hay River that at that facility. But we should know as an example, we’re going to use our that going into Stanton right now. We old medical clinic for office space. I was should be doing some of those thinking, in Stanton’s case we’d be operational assessments right now so building a hospital just for the essentials, that Regular Members can understand using the old hospital probably for the the pressures that we’re going to see in administration, just like we’re planning to that health care. do in Hay River with the medical clinic, The other question that I have, and I see but it seems like we’re doing a bigger the portable ultrasounds are in two project than that, which is difficult for us areas in this budget and I’m not so who are continuing to look for things in much concerned about ultrasounds, but the regions. I’m just talking about equipment. I know I understand we’re building a new in the South Slave we have a situation hospital, but it’s going to be a “have your where we have a lot of people travelling cake and eat it too” scenario where from Fort Smith to Hay River and a lot of there’s a double whammy. You’re them are taking cabs and a lot of them getting a new hospital and you’re getting are travelling there, and even some of October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 47 those people in Fort Smith are talking building and provision of a completely about moving to Hay River because new hospital. A new build proposal was they’re on a dialysis system. I know Fort considered, provided that the proposed Smith used to have dialysis. I don’t solution did not include demolition of the know if it’s an operations thing or we got existing hospital, and addressed the it and they didn’t, we took it from there GNWT’s requirements with respect to or… the future development and long-term Why can’t we run two dialysis systems maintenance. in the South Slave? We’re spending a The BHP proposal included an whole bunch of money transporting opportunity to repurpose the existing people, forcing people who are on Stanton Hospital at no cost and no risk dialysis, who are ill, to travel three times to the GNWT. The developer in the BHP a week. It’s probably costing us an arm proposal assumes a 30-year and a leg. It’s definitely affecting the commercial redevelopment marketing care and concern of the public because and tenancy for the redevelopment of those people are actually talking about this old hospital under a separate lease moving to a community where they’re agreement with the GNWT. The GNWT getting that service. will retain ownership of the facility, land I think we need to look at that as far as and parking at the end of the 30 years. getting dialysis back in Smith for the The agreement to lease includes residents of those communities. revenue sharing with the GNWT over Obviously, we appreciate the economic the 30-year life and also provides limits driver with those people coming into the to ensure that any redevelopment is not community, but it’s getting to a point incompatible with the delivery of health where it’s beyond that and beyond just a care services from the overall Stanton small economic driver. It’s actually site. All security for the redevelopment is affecting people’s lives. If we could look being provided by the developer’s into that process, I think that’s definitely project company. a difficulty we have. At the end of the day, when we were I’ll just wait for the Minister’s answer on initially looking at the redevelopment of that. Stanton, we recognized that the bones of that building, the existing Stanton CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Building, are still good and there’s still Mr. Bouchard. Minister Abernethy. an opportunity for the building. But, as I HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, indicated, the RFP process was such Mr. Chair. A lot of questions there. Just that it allowed for options. The option to be clear, the RFP for Stanton was that is before us came and it was the prepared to ensure the broadest best proposal as far as efficiency, value potential options for bidders to develop for money, and it is the proposal that the most affordable and efficient we’d be moving forward with. proposal. The procurement process that I hear you on the staffing. The building we went through does not limit the is larger and it will require some redevelopment solutions. A full range of additional staff. But as we are seeing proposals were considered for Stanton, with all expansions in all program including renovation of the existing delivery areas, there’s the “I wish I had,” October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 48 there’s the “I would like to have,” “it make sure that there’s nursing coverage would be nice to have,” “I need,” and to meet the expectations of our clients, that is what actually is required in order which requires a certain number of to ensure that we don’t go backwards. clients to make it happen. It’s probably We look at those numbers. We try to going to have to be a couple nurses. A assess those numbers, program areas. dialysis unit is not one nurse and it can’t This isn’t about program expansion, so run with one nurse. we’ve got to make sure that we’re not Keeping all those complications and putting in positions in light of this difficulties in mind, we look at our incredibly tight fiscal environment that numbers. I hope we never get to a are expansion services but required to position where we meet those numbers meet needs. in Fort Smith, but it could happen, and We are doing the thorough analysis of we are prepared to go that direction if Stanton and future Stanton, recognizing and when we reach those numbers. In that the building has room for growth the meantime, we have to work with the over the years dependent on changes in residents who are affected, whether populations, changes in demographics, they’re going to Yellowknife or whether all those types of things. So some they’re going to Hay River, to find positions might come later, but we solutions that work for them for their anticipate there will be some positions health and well-being, recognizing that that are going to be needed right out of being a distance from dialysis can prove the gate. We’re doing that work to make difficult. sure that we can present a case that will I think I answered all the questions. be accepted by the future Assembly to support additional required physicians in MR. BOUCHARD: I understand the that facility. proposal and the concept of building a new building. I guess no cost and no With respect to portable equipment, the risk sounds a little scary to me in the ones on this particular page are related fact that obviously the P3, there’s got to to the evergreening of equipment that be something in it for the private part of has basically reached the end of its the equation, and at no cost. useful lifecycle. But I do hear the Somewhere along the line we’re paying Member on his desire for two dialysis extra somewhere to retrofit that building units in the South Slave. I will say that or we’re paying in a long period of time the Fort Smith facility, when it was built for extras. Somehow that retrofit to the and designed, there is a room where a current facility, once we build the new dialysis unit could be placed, and we are one, is being paid for somewhere down always monitoring and always the line. The GNWT has got to be on the evaluating to see when and if it’s going hook somewhere. At no cost, I can’t to be appropriate to move a dialysis unit believe that would be true. back to Fort Smith. There will need to be a certain level of demand in order to Another area I appreciate is in this justify positions and the intense training project we are also talking about that dialysis nurses have to undergo. A extended care. I am glad they planned nurse from a regular unit untrained for a place to put their extended care in cannot provide dialysis, so we need to a new building. I know in Hay River that process wasn’t thought through by the October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 49

Department of Health when they and made some statements in the designed the new Hay River facility. We House about when this department had to get that into the budget to extend purchases new equipment, they send a that. I will be asking questions about lot of patients down south for that in the next section. Thank you, Mr. specialized care, specialized Chair. appointments or checkups. I am trying HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: I think the to remember back, but I think the extended care unit is a good example. Minister mentioned that they were We do learn from past mistakes and already in the process of looking at how there is, on the next page, a request for many appointments where we sent money to build the extended care unit people down south and the cost- here in Yellowknife that would ensure effectiveness of it and whether or not we don’t run into the same problem we there’s a trend for dialysis or cancer ran into in Hay River. treatment or some other area. Since you are creating a new stand-alone hospital, Coming back to the management of the maybe we should get an update, and if new building, the management of the he recognizes any of these trends, old building will be taken over by BHP. maybe we could start doing those kinds They are responsible for leasehold of appointments here in Yellowknife, at improvements and tenant management. the very least, rather than sending our We don’t have a cost related to any patients down south. Thank you, Mr. construction in that building. We do Chair. have an opportunity, depending on the tenants who are brought in, to have CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, some revenue sharing on that. Mr. Moses. Minister Abernethy. However, if we choose to utilize some of HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, that room for our programs and Mr. Chair. We are always looking at the services, there will be a discounted rate numbers and the costs of sending or discounted rent that we might have to people south versus finding ways to pay. So, there might be some future keep them here in the North. We are cost to leasing those buildings. doing ongoing analysis. We haven’t As far as the upgrades, that is on the been able to identify anything facility maintainers and managers which appropriate as an immediate move to will be BHP. Was there another the Northwest Territories at this point in question? time. But in the construction and design of Stanton, we didn’t want to limit CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, ourselves in the future. So there is room Minister Abernethy. Carrying on with within the proposed build that would fit questions on pages 38 and 39, something like an MRI, as an example. administrative and support services, Mr. In the plan of the new building, there is a Moses. section that is designated for where we MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I put the addition on to house an MRI just want to make a couple of should we reach that point. We may well comments. In the past I’ve made reach that point. The numbers are comments about some medical changing all the time and some day we equipment. I think I’ve asked questions might reach it, but we’re not there yet. October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 50

We have an immediate need to expand employees who come to us who have things like dialysis here in Yellowknife particular training who sometimes have where there is a significant number of to come to these machines. It’s a little residents who require dialysis. We are difficult to talk about this category with working with the Stanton Foundation. I respect to machines because the nature would like to applaud the Stanton of these machines is so varied, so Foundation, who is currently out significant, but we are always looking for fundraising for our new dialysis ways to bring these services closer. machines that could be put in this new You will note that there is a portable hospital. When that happens, we will ultrasound on this page and that is have to seek some operating dollars. intended to go to Inuvik and help We are on top of trying to monitor trends improve some of the X-ray services they to ensure we have the ability to provide are providing up there. acute care services for all residents of the Northwest Territories. MR. MOSES: That is leading into my next question with the portable MR. MOSES: In terms of the medical ultrasound machines in Inuvik, Simpson equipment, it kind of goes to what my and Smith. It seems like it’s a very colleague Mr. Bouchard mentioned as important piece of equipment in terms of well. We do get a lot of medical travel, detecting any kind of disease or which has also been a topic of hot disorders that can be life threatening. discussion in the House. Whether or not we can put some equipment into the Can the Minister tell me how many regions, for instance, seeing what we communities have these portable might be able to get up in Inuvik. With ultrasound machines and why we’re not the cost of travel and adding an escort getting them into more of the on to that, the costs doubled bringing communities, especially the regional people down, whether it’s a first centres? On top of that, do we have appointment or follow-up or checkup people staffed and trained to operate appointments. Maybe it’s a possibility to these machines? Thank you, Mr. Chair. see what inventory we have in the HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: The communities and if we can start putting portable ultrasounds is in response to a that type of equipment in the policy that was put forward in 2006 by communities. Thank you, Mr. Chair. the Canadian Association of Emergency HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: The line Physicians. There are new national the Member is referring to is the medical standards for emergency rooms and equipment biomedical evergreening. these portable ultrasounds will be going Much of this can be quite small, Mr. into emergency rooms. We’ve already Chair. Some of it is small machines, got the one we need here in Yellowknife some larger machines. Some of it is and we’re looking at Inuvik, Fort Smith, diagnostic machines and some are Simpson – Was it Simpson? – Hay more complex. We are always looking River, my apologies, to be in – you’re for ways to bring the services as close right, Simpson – the emergency units. to our residents as possible. We have to They do require some specialty training acknowledge that it’s not just machines that we’re not in a position to ensure but specialty expertise, specialty that our community health nurses throughout the Northwest Territories October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 51 have, so they won’t be going into the preferred folks to make a final proposal. community health centres at this point. Two of them told me it would be a lot MR. MOSES: Just looking at some of cheaper and a lot faster to build a new our regional centres, does Hay River building. I know a lot of emotion is also have one and does Norman Wells probably attached to Stanton, and rightly have one? Do these regional centres so, but I think it’s important to ask have the staff trained to utilize these ourselves was it the right choice, and I portable ultrasound machines? Thank think it is at this particular time. I also you. find it really interesting, the clause of the old building will not become a burden on HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: There will the territorial government or the be one in Hay River. It’s incorporated taxpayer and I think that that was quite into the new build as part of the plan an interesting initiative that certainly there. There will be one in that years down the road that it’s going to community. At this time there isn’t one play out in a way that I certainly hope it scheduled or planned to be in Norman will, but the idea of having the proponent Wells, given the nature and degree or manage, take all the risk and the GNWT scope of that particular facility. shares in some revenues, it’s really an MR. MOSES: Just to follow up, do we interesting concept. So I hope in 34 have the people who are qualified years or whenever that contract is done because of the new standards, who are that they look back and say that that trained, and do we have the adequate decision wasn’t just a good one, it was staff to use these in the communities? an incredible one. Like anything, only Thank you. time will tell. HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: You forget My first area of questioning is going to to answer a question and you get be in the area somewhat as Mr. Moses everybody coming at you from all sides. had just pointed out. I’m curious about Yes, the training is incorporated. I what new services are being identified. I apologize for missing that. Sorry. did hear the Minister say about they’re CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, thinking ahead with things like space for Mr. Abernethy. Continuing on with an MRI if that becomes the issue of the questions, pages 38 and 39, day that we need to now offer that administrative and support services for service. I also heard him say the the Department of Health, I have Mr. possibility of allowing more room for Hawkins. dialysis machines. MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Can he maybe speak to the types of I’m going to maybe touch base on some programs the hospital will be in a of the earlier questions, only more so for position to expand towards on day one? clarity and so I can get the fullness of New changes that is. I’m not talking the detail provided. about floor space and an ER that’s bigger than it was before. What I’m First off let me say that I want to talking about is what will be new and applaud the decision-makers on going what is it preparing for. I’d like to know forward with the new building. Part of what programs we’ll offer new, as well the issue I had was I was speaking with as the staffing component that must two of the bidders when it came to three October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 52 have been examined when they as a dialysis unit as opposed to a room considered this, because no designer that a wall was knocked down and a worth their salt would have just drawn a dialysis unit was tossed in there. hospital and said okay, we’ll figure it out So it’s planning about flow, it’s planning from here. They would have had to have about the services, and the units will known exactly what program areas we have room for some level of expansion needed and where we were going and over the 30 years of the life of the they also need to know the complement building, or the life of our contract with of the staff required in this. So, that said, BHP. I look forward to that first set of questions. Thank you. MR. HAWKINS: Thank you. Anything new almost sounded exactly as what’s CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, been said before. So, I guess there’s Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Abernethy. really nothing new per se. HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, What is the change to our complement Mr. Chair. We’ve been clear that this of the staffing levels that we will isn’t about adding any new services to experience in the new facility? Could the the Stanton footprint at this point in time. Minister, maybe not this present second It is a replacement of all the in-patient per se give me the exact number, but beds through newly constructed single what’s the ballpark number we’re patient rooms. There is a new larger working with at Stanton and what is the emergency department allowing for ballpark staffing complement number more appropriate flow, patient we’ll need for the updated facility? engagement, things to help us address Thank you. decontamination, isolation, those types of things. There is also a new larger HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: We don’t medical laboratory with space for want to get into the same situation we diagnostic imaging. We aren’t planning had in Hay River where there were a lot an MRI in there, but we have asked that of early projections without the thorough the ability to add a footprint for an MRI analysis. Once again, we’re not adding be incorporated into the site design and new functions, but recognizing that the the plans so there’s room for the MRI. building is larger and that we’re designing units that are actually going to We’re incorporating into the building be focused on patient care and have a enhanced medical technology to better layout, better flow, we anticipate modernize some of the hospital that there will be increases in positions operations. We’re looking at, in this over the 30-year life of that particular facility, sort of trying to build upon where facility. Over 30 years it could be we started in the existing Stanton where anywhere from 50 to 100, but on day space became a giant issue, things like one I couldn’t tell you what those a chemo suite that will be in the new numbers are going to be. We need to do hospital. So it’s not a new service, but it more analysis and we are in the process will be done in a far better way and the of doing that work today. area will actually be truly designed for the purpose and the intent. The same is MR. HAWKINS: It was reported on true of the dialysis. There will be an area CBC North, and I thought it was an designed for dialysis that was designed interesting comment, and not just a plug October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 53 for CBC North on at six o’clock with review those audits that were done in Randy Henderson – Randy can thank other jurisdictions because we wanted me later; I’m waiting for his Tweet. That to make sure that we did not relive or said, in all seriousness, the Ontario redo the same mistakes that were done Auditor General had pointed out in other jurisdictions, which goes to the performance problems with the comment the Minister of Finance made contractor as basically the lead of this earlier about some of the overseeing initiative. I mean, in essence it really that’s being done on this particular talked about probably cost creep. project, some of the checks and Although I haven’t had a chance to read balances that have been put in place. the report, I certainly will be looking We also do know, and if you read that towards it later on. In essence, the report on CBC further, that one of the performance of these two hospitals that recommendations that came out of that were built in Ontario went well and particular report was a hard and fast cap above the original cost scope and on the construction costs, which is predicted budget and of course it looked something that we’ve built into our like, from the story that I read, that the contract. So we actually have a hard size of the hospital was compromised and fast construction cost cap on the probably in a manner to keep the costs facility construction itself so that the from growing well beyond reach. build won’t cost more money than we That said, has the department had a anticipated. But it’s going to take, as the chance to go through these Auditor Member was saying, a thorough General reports? I mean, these analysis, constant checks and balances. contractors would have, of course, put The Minister has already committed to their best case forward by saying, oh, keeping committee informed about we’re the greatest contractor, we can progress, steps, checks and balances. It build hospitals day in and day out any is important for us to read those reports, day of the week and deliver a great those Auditor General reports from other product, but if they have a history of jurisdictions, so that we can be as running into cost overruns and there’s informed as possible to make sure that lack of oversight on the performance of we don’t relive those mistakes made in these particular contracts, how does the other jurisdictions. department plan to mitigate this? It’s Just as a final note, we also know that easy to say, well, that’s Public Works’ there have been hospital projects similar problem, but ultimately it’s somebody’s to ours where there has been a great problem and it runs through the deal of success without those cost Department of Health who is asking for creeps or other problems. I would say money. Thank you. those jurisdictions have also learned HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you. from the mistakes of others, to make The Department of Finance has taken sure that we get what we ask for, what the lead on the financing of this we’re paying for over the short and long particular project as well as some of the term. monitoring and overseeing. MR. HAWKINS: Thank you very much. I do know, without question, that the Sorry to compare the two projects, but staff of the Department of Finance did of course the Inuvik-Tuk Highway had a October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 54 hard number, as well, and we’re having estimates. Administrative and support a hard time swallowing that one too. So services, infrastructure investments, I fully agree and think it’s fair that if we $44.134 million. Does committee agree? change the scope midway through SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. where circumstances beyond control gives us the chance, but again, those CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Pages 40 are things we’ll have to deal with, or and 41, community health programs, somebody will have to deal with as time infrastructure investments. Mr. Hawkins. goes on. MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The only thing I want to say is I want to I’m not going to belabour this section reiterate the two comments I made at very long. I just need to clarify a the very beginning of the statement, particular thing under the extended care which were the new building, I’m very 18-bed facility being anticipated to be glad with the process. It’s the one I here in Yellowknife. One of the wanted. I was worried we would get a particular issues that has arisen is the renovation while patients were trying to competitiveness of those opportunities. be served. I thought from the start it was Can I get the Minister’s commitment to impractical. this House that it will be a competitive The last part I want to point out is that tender process whether it is developed the old building will have a service life. through a partnership with Avens or it’s It’s an iconic figure in this community developed as a government project or and certainly the territory, and it would some other way? The point is, I want to be a shame to see it bulldozed over, so ensure that this extended care facility is I’m glad to hear that it will have a life an open and competitive contract, our beyond the opening of the new hospital, contractors can be involved in it and at a life that doesn’t carry any risk on the least take a shot. I hear, time and time GNWT. again, that although they don’t like it when they lose – make no mistake, they My understanding is Minister don’t like it – the fact is, they like it even Miltenberger may have had a role in less if they don’t get to be involved in playing that no risk part in, so if he did, I the bid. hope he’s still here as an MLA serving in 30 years to evaluate the contract to see CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, if it worked out. I have no doubt he’ll be Mr. Hawkins. Minister Abernethy. here in another 30 years if given the HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, chance, assuming his wife lets him. Of Mr. Chair. The extended care facility is course, that probably means Mrs. going to be an important facility here in Groenewegen will be wanting to keep Yellowknife. We need to get this running too. approved so that we can have the 18 In all seriousness, the new building is level 5 beds that are currently in the excellent news. The old building risk Stanton building but will no longer be in taken off is fantastic. the Stanton building. As far as construction, Public Works and Services CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, will be the lead on the procurement of Mr. Hawkins. Committee, we’re on that particular facility, so I’m not really in pages 38 and 39 of your capital October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 55 a position to say anything at this point process to ensure that we get the best on how they’ll proceed. building we can for the dollars that we I will say that there has been some have available. interest expressed in this building MR. HAWKINS: I hear the Minister but already. By way of example, Avens has I worry he’s not hearing me. The issue is indicated they would maybe like to enter it’s not about Avens and if the into a partnership where that extended government decides to contract directly facility can help them move forward with with Avens for services for the extended the construction of a long-term care care level 5 beds. Albeit it’s not as if it’s facility. We’ve indicated that that’s a competitive market in the city where something we’re open to, but obviously we’ve got 50 seniors agencies before any decisions can be made on scrambling at the door saying we want a that, a solid business case would be chance. We really have one. Sorry; two. required. First things first, though. We I should say it this way. You have Avens need to get the project approved so that and you have the Government of the we can ensure that there are the 18 Northwest Territories. You have one or level 5 extended care beds available in the other who wants to take on the Yellowknife for the day that the current challenge. Stanton closes and the new Stanton That isn’t the issue, and I want to be opens. very clear, but the problem really boils MR. HAWKINS: I guess I go to the simply down to the fact that if the Minister and, hopefully, maybe if he government is now offsetting its, sort of, doesn’t want to answer, maybe the problem with this one by finding a other Minister will answer it, or partner who’s willing to carry the weight somebody will take responsibility for it, or the crux of the issue and follow which is: Who can confirm or commit to through on the success of it, that’s the House that there will be a great. But the fact is we’re giving them competitive process in this particular the money, government money, public initiative? money, taxpayer money, and they’re HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Like I said, going about it in a way that probably there has been some interest expressed creates great frustration in the by Avens to utilize that facility or utilize community. I can’t say they will. I want that opportunity to help them move to stress that. I can’t say they won’t. I forward with the expansion of their long- don’t know. But I can tell you, when you term care facility in Yellowknife. We’ve are in business, be it in Yellowknife or indicated we’re open to that discussion. anywhere in the Northwest Territories, If that is something that comes to and the government gives, I stress by fruition, obviously it might change our way of example, $10 million for another ability to do an open competition as group to build a facility that will then Avens would be the builders and not come up with a long-term contract, they necessarily us, so I can’t commit on see that still as government money. If behalf of Avens on how they intend to the government enters into a $10 move forward with the procurement. million, $20 million, $30 million project by way of contracting spaces, beds, If that does not work, we will certainly leasing, whatever, they still see that as want to have an open and transparent October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 56 government money used to pay for that The final thing I’ll say on this area is that whole facility. if any agency wants to enter into a If any agency enters into sole-source contract with the Northwest Territories agreement, they just see it as, de facto, government, I mean, essentially they do the government has chosen to steer or it at their own choice. We could put in redirect government taxpayer money our agreement with them that they have without a competitive process, and to have a competitive process on that. that’s what I’m trying to avoid. I’m trying That’s a choice we can make how they to see that we have a competitive do that. To say that, well, it’s up to them, process. Yellowknife is the one market actually I disagree. If they want to community where we have a provide the service, which I certainly competitive community. It’s not as if it’s hope they do because I believe they do in Fort McPherson where you may only a darn good job at it, we can say at the have one or two people who can do beginning that you have to be these types of things, or you’re in maybe competitive and that is the minimum Fort Simpson where, again, you’re very expectation we have in that area. limited on your options and choices. The I know we have a lot of contractors. We everyday citizen sees it as government even have some formally of Hay River going through. It’s not the issue of who would like to be involved in this Avens being the partner or the deliverer initiative and opportunity just to bid. I’m of the solution. It’s about how we get the looking for some type of assurance I can construction portion and component of go back to the folks in this community it, and that is a great concern. We have who own construction businesses who construction companies in the city that want to play a role in this, because have more than enough skills and these opportunities don’t come along competence to do that, and that’s the very often. type of assurance we need. I’m sorry to HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Obviously, go on at length, but I need to ensure the procurement will be led by Public that it’s explained very well where the Works and Services, but moving forward issue lays. It doesn’t lay with Avens. from a Health and Social Services perspective, whether we’re partnering with somebody like Avens or looking for other opportunities, we must ensure a cost-effective business case and we must go with the most appropriate development delivery based on value for money. I agree with the Member; transparency is necessary and having the ability to have an open and fair process is important. I take the Member’s point around having a proviso in there that even if we do work with somebody else that it has to be open and fair is important. I will certainly share that October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 57 information with the Minister of Public and a respiratory therapist. These Works and Services. I’m pretty sure he residents’ medical needs may become heard it. quickly unstable. MR. HAWKINS: I thank the Minister for Long-term care facilities, which we refer that answer. Is there any commitment to as level 3 and 4, provide services to that we can get that that will be the residents with more stable medical process followed? needs that require access to 24-hour HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: It’s a little nursing and health care professionals to difficult for me to make a commitment to assist with personal care and daily bind future governments in this activities. An example would be particular case since the procurement residents with dementia who require a won’t actually happen until the life of the safe and secure environment 24/7. 18th Assembly. But as I said, I will Within completion of the operational certainly share that information. The plan and functional program, it was department has the information. I’m sure determined that 18 beds is the optimum the Department of Public Works and level for staffing level of level 5. So that Services has heard what the Member is would be 16 extended care beds, one looking for. I will commit to ensure that palliative bed and one respite bed in the that information is shared. extended care facility that we’re talking CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): about today. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Mr. Hawkins. MR. BROMLEY: Could I get an Okay, next I have Mr. Bromley. inventory by those categories for, say, MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Madam existing ones for Yellowknife, Hay River Chair. I welcome the Minister and staff and Fort Smith? here. I would just like to get some HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: We have definition or characterization, so I’m the 10 extended care beds at Stanton using the right terms, of things like currently, and other than the Dementia extended care versus long-term care, Facility… Sorry, that’s it for extended maybe a level of care. Could I get just a care. So, 10 extended care in the crash course on a few of those terms? Northwest Territories at this point in Thank you. time. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): For long-term care beds, we have eight Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister in the Tlicho, 22 in the Beaufort-Delta in Abernethy. the Inuvik Hospital, none in Norman HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, Wells at this point in time, 26 in Fort Madam Chair. I am happy to do so. Smith, 25 in Hay River, 17 in Fort Extended care facilities are what we Simpson, 28 in Aven Manor and 28 in refer to as level 5 and provides services the Dementia Facility. Then at the to residents with complex medical needs hospital we have 10 extended care. So who require 24-hour nursing care and a there are 151 long-term care beds and range of supports from other health care then 10 extended care beds. With the professionals. An example of this would construction of the facility in Behchoko, be a resident who is on a ventilator who there will be 18 long-term care beds and requires care from a registered nurse we will have 18 long-term care beds in October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 58

Norman Wells, so we are moving those Yellowknife and I am working with numbers up as we speak. Avens right now to get them into the MR. BROMLEY: I think the Minister capital planning process. We need a can see that there is a huge gap in the business plan; we need some cost capital, where we’ve known for years estimates; we need to understand the O that the rate of increase is much higher and M costs; and we are hoping, than anywhere else in the Northwest assuming that none of these other Territories. I appreciate the options like the extended care work out, commitments I am hearing him make to to still work closely with them to get the extent that he can for trying to get them into the capital planning process after those, but even this 18-bed facility as quickly as possible. on anywhere near a comparative basis MR. BROMLEY: Thanks to the Minister leaves Yellowknife in the dust. I would for those comments. The other gap that recommend that the department sit is out there is that there are many down and start bringing some fairness seniors, because of their income levels, to this equation and start thinking on the who would never be able to get into scale that the data clearly shows is these facilities that we are imagining. required. That’s a comment. What role does the Minister see HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: I agree government playing in the small with the Member; we need to make sure Northwest Territories economy at we are getting in front of this and we are working to provide private facilities or working very closely with Avens to find encouraging private facilities? Those some solutions. We are exploring a who have the financial resources, number of different financing options families who have financial resources that are available. They have expressed can have an option to support their an interest in a partnership opportunity elders with the care that they need, but in the extended care, which would help they are unlikely to get the same leverage moving forward with the 60 support from a government institution. beds they want to provide here in Thank you. Yellowknife. I know they’re working with HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: A couple of the Housing Corp to talk about the things. Your income doesn’t really affect renovations of the existing facility once your ability to access government they have a facility to move people in. funded long-term care facilities in the This isn’t just a Yellowknife problem, I’m Northwest Territories, or extended care. sure the Member will acknowledge. The So it doesn’t matter if you make a ton of Beaufort-Delta, by way of an example, is money or have no money, it’s based on incredibly tight as well. We are actually need. So I’m not sure I understand that out for RFP right now. I think it’s going particular question. Hopefully the to close next week, looking for someone Member will be able to help me to help us do the facilities planned for understand where he’s going with that. the Northwest Territories to help us On the other side, there is nothing figure out where we need facilities and stopping a private business from how to move forward. opening up a long-term care facility and Having said that, I acknowledge that charging whatever they feel an there is an immediate need in appropriate market rent or market fee October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 59 would be to do that. There’s nothing CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): stopping anybody from doing that. Do you have a response to that? Okay, Having said that, I absolutely thank you. Health and Social Services, acknowledge that there aren’t any, community health programs, which means there may be some barrier infrastructure investments, $16.343 out there to dissuade some individuals million. who are interested in opening a privately SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. run long-term care facility with no government money. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Thank you. Now we’ll turn to page 37, As part of the review that I’ve asked to total infrastructure investments, Health be done, I’ve asked them to do some and Social Services, $60.477 million. analysis around that component, as well, to see whether or not some policy SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. changes are required to help create CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): some incentive or remove potential Thank you, Minister Abernethy. Thank restrictions or barriers that private you, Mr. Elkin and Ms. DeLancey. I’ll enterprise might see for opening up and ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to please running their own private long-term care escort the witnesses from the Chamber. facilities and charging whatever they Does committee agree that we’ve feel is a reasonable market price. So, concluded the Department of Health and that is to be included in the review so Social Services? that if there are barriers, we can find a SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. way to work with private enterprise to create some economic opportunities CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): and see some additional non- Thank you. If we could turn to page 9, government funded beds here in the we’ll deal with the Legislative Assembly Northwest Territories. budget next. Is everyone agreed? MR. BROMLEY: That sounds good, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Madam Chair. I would be happy to CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): provide the Minister with some Thank you. I’ll ask the Sergeant-at-Arms examples. I’m sure he’s aware of them, if he could please escort the witnesses but I’ll refresh his memory for people and the Speaker to the table. who are not able to get into facilities Welcome, Mr. Speaker. For the record, because of an income barrier. I will could you please acknowledge your leave it at that. Thank you. witnesses today. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): HON. JACKIE JACOBSON: Thank Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Anything to you, Madam Chair. To my right I have respond, Mr. Abernethy? Mr. Darrin Ouellette, director of HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Pardon? corporate services. To my other left I have Mr. Tim Mercer, Clerk of the Legislative Assembly. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Thank you, Speaker Jacobson. If I could direct Members’ attention, then, to… October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 60

We’ll defer page 9 and we will go to expenditure? I’m looking forward to page 10, Office of the Clerk, seeing some of that completion. infrastructure investments, $200,000. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Mr. Bouchard. Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. Speaker MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you. I see Jacobson. this item on here and I’m just wondering HON. JACKIE JACOBSON: Yes, all if we have some other capital the signage will be completed this year. expenditures. I know we’ve talked, the Board of Management, about doing CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): some upgrades to the building. Have we Thank you, Speaker Jacobson. Mr. completed all those upgrades for Bouchard is finished. Anything further? access? I know we’ve had people with Office of the Clerk, infrastructure disabilities come through, CNIB come investments, $200,000. Agreed? through and stuff like that. Are there any SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. other building upgrades that we’re CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): looking at doing in this upcoming year? Thank you. Turning back, then, to page Thank you. 9, total for the Legislative Assembly, CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): infrastructure investments, $200,000. Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. Mr. Ouellette. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. OUELLETTE: Thank you, Madam CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Chair. Yes, the building accessibility Does the committee agree that this betterments are underway. We’re in concludes consideration of the budget phase two right now. We’ve completed for the Legislative Assembly? phase one last year and that was SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. primarily all of the work that was being done on the main floor area and now CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): we’re just looking at a second floor area Agreed. Thank you. Thank you, Speaker where some of the doorways have been Jacobson, Mr. Mercer, Mr. Ouellette. I’ll widened and the committee rooms and ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to please access into the Members’ and executive escort these gentlemen from the areas and looking at the installation of Chamber. Thank you. automatic door openers and whatnot. Okay, does the committee agree that we We’re scheduled to complete that work have concluded consideration of Tabled by the end of this fiscal year. Document 281-17(5), Capital Estimates, CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): 2016-2017? Thank you, Mr. Ouellette. Mr. Bouchard. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. BOUCHARD: Another program I CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): know they’ve been working on is the Thank you. Ms. Bisaro. signage in the whole area of the Legislative Assembly, the tourist booth, the museum and stuff like that. Can we just get an update? Do we have anything coming up in the upcoming budget on that or is it just all this year’s October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 61

COMMITTEE MOTION 140-17(5): an increase of $2.1 million to the capital CONCURRENCE OF TD 281- budget. 17(5): The most significant items are: NORTHWEST TERRITORIES CAPITAL ESTIMATES 2016-2017, 1. $1.5 million to provide the CARRIED Department of Public Works and Services a capital appropriation to MS. BISARO: Thank you, Madam renovate office space in the YK Chair. I move that consideration of Centre. This amount is fully offset by Tabled Document 281-17(5), Northwest a lease inducement provided by the Territories Capital Estimates, 2016- landlord; and 2017, be now concluded and that Tabled Document 281-17(5) be reported 2. $400,000 for the Department of and recommended as ready for further Environment and Natural Resources consideration in formal session through to provide funding for the increased the form of an appropriation bill. Thank costs for the new air tractor fleet due you, Madam Chair. to the current exchange rate between the Canadian and American dollar. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. The motion is in I am prepared to review the details of order and is being distributed now. To the supplementary estimates document. the motion. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. I would CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): like to ask the Minister if he would like to Question has been called. Motion is bring witnesses into the Chamber. carried. HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: ---Carried Yes, Madam Chair. Tabled Document 281-17(5) is now CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): ready for consideration in formal session Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Does through the form of an appropriation bill. committee agree? Does committee agree, then, that we’ll SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. now proceed to Tabled Document 325- 17(5), Supplementary Estimates CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 3, Thank you. I’ll ask the Sergeant-at-Arms 2015-2016? to please escort the witnesses to the table. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Minister Miltenberger, for the record, CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): could you please introduce your Thank you. Opening remarks, Minister witnesses. Miltenberger. HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Thank you, Madam Chair. I have with Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m here to me Deputy Minister Mike Aumond and present Supplementary Estimates deputy secretary to the FMB, Sandy (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 3, Kalgutkar. 2015-2016. This document provides for October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 62

CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): I’ll ask the deputy minister if he wants to Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. add anything further, Madam Chair. General comments. I have Mr. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Bouchard. Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Madam Aumond. Chair. I just have some general MR. AUMOND: Thank you, Madam questions to the Minister about the ENR Chair. To follow up on the Minister’s expenditure on the US purchase of comments, the Department of Finance these aircraft. will set up a facility at an institution and My first question is: Why wouldn’t we we will explore opportunities to get more have hedged the major purchase of certainty into the costing going forward, these assets and are we making that but as the Minister said, it does come correction going forward? We know we with its own risks. Depending on where have multiple payments to make in US you hedge the dollar, it could go up or currency and are we making that in the go further down, so it’s not without risk. future so that we don’t have to spend But again, we will take prudent $400,000 every time we try to make a measures to mitigate our exposure payment? going forward. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. Mr. Thank you, Mr. Aumond. Mr. Bouchard. Miltenberger. MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Madam HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Chair. Obviously, my next question is for Thank you, Madam Chair. The whole Public Works and Services spending practice of hedging is a separate, highly another $1.5 million on more office volatile profession of its own, and if we space in Yellowknife. Obviously, this is a could with any certainty know which way concern. I know we just built a whole things were going to go as hedgers, as building. I know we have millions and has been pointed out, I’d probably be millions of dollars out there in rental sitting in lavish luxury somewhere in space in Yellowknife, and obviously, it’s maybe another locale. Be that as it may, been key to me to do some we don’t normally buy a lot of things in decentralization and promote US funds and, no, we did not hedge, decentralization and now we’re buy any dollars to hedge on this. Yes, spending another $1.5 million to do we are looking at how we could possibly some more office upgrades. ameliorate that impact. But I would also Can the Minister just give me an point out that earlier in this process we explanation of this $1.5 million being came before the Legislature and we spent, and how often do we spend moved some money up to take another $1.5 million on office space in advantage of an opportunity that saved Yellowknife? us, about a year or so ago, about $350,000, so things are close to CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): balancing out. But the issue of hedging Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. Minister and having to pay money because of Miltenberger. the exchange rate is something that we HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: are, as I indicated, trying to ameliorate. Thank you, Madam Chair. This money October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 63 in question is money that was provided we kind of know this was coming. We to us as an inducement to help know this was a multi-year purchase encourage and make lease renewal and that these airplanes are bought in more of a possibility, so the money is US dollars. That’s a given. That’s how sitting there in an account as an the industry works. But I want to zone in inducement given to us and we are just on one of the things that was said today now seeking approval to put that money that the deputy minister indicated, to use to do different improvements. “We’re looking for a facility or institution Once again, Madam Chair, I’d ask if the for more certainty.” Can I get an deputy minister wanted to add anything explanation of what that really meant? further. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Mr. Aumond. Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. MR. AUMOND: Thank you, Madam Aumond. Chair. By “institution,” I mean one of the MR. AUMOND: Thank you, Madam banks that we deal with, and the facility Chair. As the Minister said, this is an would either be the hedge vehicle or inducement for a lease renewal for a another vehicle for which we could try to leased property, not a property that the protect ourselves from currency GNWT owns, so it’s at no cost to the fluctuation. Government of the Northwest Territories MR. DOLYNNY: If Members so we were looking to… The only remember, last year we were condition was that we had to do it in the accelerating the program to take building that the lease landlord owns advantage of, I believe, the dollar, I and so we still need the appropriation think, if memory serves me right, and authority to spend that money, given now we’re this year looking at a cost that the funds were already provided to varied to the currency value. the Government of the Northwest Territories. The request here is to see I guess my question is: What did we the legislative approval to spend the learn from this project and what money for its intended purpose. changes are going to be made to mitigate purchases of this magnitude, CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): especially in US dollars in the future? Any other general comments? Mr. Has the department managed to come Dolynny. up with a different set of policies or MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Madam directives on how to deal with purchases Chair. I’d like to welcome the in US dollars? department here today, bringing forward MR. AUMOND: I think the learning another supplementary estimates before opportunity from this experience is, as I the House. said earlier, we will look to set up an Kind of dovetailing on what we’ve heard agreement with one of our financial earlier from Mr. Bouchard regarding the institutions that we deal with, to try to additional costs here for the 802 see what may be possible in terms of bombers that we’re purchasing, I tried to mitigating our exposure to currency pay particular attention to some of the fluctuations. At the time when we did description used earlier as to how come this, we did the acceleration, we had October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 64 savings of about $335,000 US offset that clearly give Members on this side of now against this requirement for the House when we’re buying $400,000 Canadian. something for millions of dollars in this We’ll look to do that under the limitations case here. that we have, given that for ’16-17 the My next question is that, if memory money will not become available for the serves, this project was a little over $30 government to spend until April 1st. So million, I believe, a three-year period. we’ll have something set up prior to that We know that there’s another and then be able to make a decision on installment coming forward in what would be appropriate at that point infrastructure possibly for next year, so in time. Again, I think this is, in terms of what does that mean for the next year buying goods or services in US dollars, now? If the dollar stays the same, are the exception to the rule. Nevertheless, we going to be facing the same type of we want to mitigate our exposure going question next year for those who are forward. going to be here for the future 18th MR. DOLYNNY: I give some credit Assembly? where credit is due. This is a bit of an CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): exception to the rule, but Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister notwithstanding, I’m sure this is not the Miltenberger. first time our government has had to HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: purchase expensive items in US funds Thank you, Madam Chair. The issue of and I’m assuming we will continue to do buying in US dollars anything of so for years to come. significance, both gentlemen at the table My role here as a legislator is to protect here have a combined experience of the public purse, and in doing so it’s over 50 years, and this is the first incumbent upon myself to make sure situation of this nature that either one, the department is working towards the with that extensive experience, has betterment of processes, the betterment experienced or been involved in. I have of procedures so that we have a high much less experience in the finance degree of certainty when we do a field but could add a few years to that as desktop analysis as to what these well. projects will cost in the future. As I said, As the deputy minister indicated, we are every year it seems to be something taking the steps with one of the different with respect to these 802 Fire institutions and a facility to be ready, Bosses. This year now it’s about the should that need arise, and we’re going evaluation of the Canadian currency vis- to, of course, be prepared, and this has à-vis the American currency, so I’m a bit now been documented that if that issue disenfranchised that through it all we’re comes up and as we move forward still looking into it, we may see we still before we get to the stage of having to don’t have a project or a directive or a actually pull the trigger on some type of policy that clearly says these are the investment, the US dollars, between things to do when we’re buying items, ourselves, the very qualified staff we these are the issues of hedging or have, all the experts we use and of whatever the case, whatever you’ve course the due diligence and vigilance heard from the previous Member here of the communities and the Legislature October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 65 that I’m sure that we will make sure that CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): we are well prepared. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Kalgutkar. Mr. Dolynny. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Madam Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Anything Chair. Again the question is still not further, Mr. Dolynny? answered. What does this impact have MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Madam on the total cost evaluation or whole Chair. I appreciate the astute knowledge asset cost of the purchase of the 802 of the Finance Minister in reply, but the bomber program? Again, originally told one question that was not answered is and brought to the House as a project we know there’s another installment of that was going to be a $30 million this project in the next capital budget. project. Has that price, or will that price We know we’re faced here with a increase over the life of this contract? discretionary amount due to a Thank you. fluctuating dollar. We know that the CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): original project was somewhere in that Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Mr. $30 million range. My question was, and Miltenberger. still stands, what do we anticipate for HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: next year’s appropriation and how does Thank you, Madam Chair. We are not this affect the overall evaluation of the that prescient that we can foretell what total project in terms of the cost? Thank the exchange rate will be by next year, you. which is why we’re going to set up this CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): facility to help us try to hedge and Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Mr. Kalgutkar. hopefully pick appropriately as we’re MR. KALGUTKAR: Thank you, Madam hedging what exactly it is we’re going to Chair. In ’15-16 the total payment that hedge and how much. So I appreciate was due to the contractor, based on the the Member’s concern. We can tell you revised cash flow that we were able to what we’ve spent to date with the actual negotiate, was based on a cost of $8.9 cost of what we came forward with, the million Canadian, but when that money we saved by advancing the payment was required, that obviously project last year to the money that it cost had devaluation in the Canadian dollar us with the exchange rate drop. All compared to the American dollar, which combined, that money has been paid. is what’s driving the need for this We can tell you to the penny now what supplementary appropriation because of that has cost us. The next installment that item to actually come here. The we are going to be taking all the steps amount of exchange rate required us to we’ve talked about here to make sure make the payment to increase the that we hedge against another type of amount that was due to the supplier. loss related to exchange rates. Thank Going forward, as Mr. Aumond said, we you. will have a facility in place with our bank CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): to try to hedge the ’16-17 and ’17-18 Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Mr. payments due to the supplier. Thank Dolynny. you. MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you. Again, I’m getting a very blurred response, Madam October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 66

Chair. The money saved last year is would like to report progress and that definitely being spent this year. So at consideration of Tabled Document 281- the end of the day, the net impact is 17(5) is concluded and that the House zero. The question still remains with the concur in those estimates and that an two installments that we’ve had already appropriation bill to be based thereon be on this project, there’s a third installment introduced without delay. Mr. Speaker, I left on these 802 firebombers. It’s going move that the report of Committee of the to be a small residual left, according to Whole be concurred with. Thank you. the math if you’re looking at the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mrs. appropriations. Again, are we still on Groenewegen. Do I have a seconder? target of a slightly over $30 million Mr. Bromley. project for the purchase of the 802s? Thank you. ---Carried CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Item 22, third reading of bills. Mr. Clerk, Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister orders of the day. Miltenberger. 13) Orders of the Day HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Thank you. Yes. DEPUTY CLERK OF THE HOUSE (Mr. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Schauerte): Orders of the day for Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. At this Monday, October 5, 2015, at 1:30 p.m.: time I’m going to recognize the clock. 1. Prayer We had not planned to sit beyond two 2. Ministers’ Statements o’clock. I let Mr. Dolynny conclude his 3. Members’ Statements general comments. We’ll resume with general comments on this document 4. Returns to Oral Questions when we come back on Monday. I’d like 5. Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery to thank Minister Miltenberger and his 6. Acknowledgements staff for their attendance here today and wish them a happy weekend. 7. Oral Questions Colleagues, I’m going to now rise and 8. Written Questions report progress. 9. Returns to Written Questions MR. SPEAKER: Item 21, report of 10. Replies to Opening Address Committee of the Whole. Mrs. 11. Petitions Groenewegen. 12. Reports of Standing and Special 12) Report of Committee of the Whole Committees 13. Reports of Committees on the MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you, Review of Bills Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Tabled 14. Tabling of Documents Document 281-17(5), Northwest 15. Notices of Motion Territories Capital Estimates, 2016- 16. Notices of Motion for First 2017; and Tabled Document 325-17(5), Reading of Bills Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 3, 2015-2016, and 17. Motions October 2, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 67

- Motion 48-17(5), Northwest - Bill 64, An Act to Amend the Co- Territories Disabilities Services operative Associations Act 18. First Reading of Bills - Bill 65, An Act to Amend the Safety - Bill 48, An Act to Amend the Act Mental Health Act - Bill 68, An Act to Amend the Child 19. Second Reading of Bills and Family Services Act, No. 2 - Bill 69, An Act to Amend the - Minister’s Statement 221-17(5), Legislative Assembly and Sessional Statement Executive Council Act, No. 2 - Tabled Document 324-17(5), 20. Consideration in Committee of Supplementary Estimates the Whole of Bills and Other Matters (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2015-2016 - Bill 45, An Act to Amend the Workers’ Compensation Act - Tabled Document 325-17(5), Supplementary Estimates - Bill 49, An Act to Amend the Deh (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. Cho Bridge Act 3, 2015-2016 - Bill 54, An Act to Amend the Forest 21. Report of Committee of the Management Act Whole - Bill 56, Miscellaneous Statute Law 22. Third Reading of Bills Amendment Act, 2015 23. Orders of the Day - Bill 59, Estate Administration Law Amendment Act MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Accordingly, this House stands - Bill 60, An Act to Amend the Motor adjourned until Monday, October 5th, at Vehicles Act, No. 2 1:30 p.m. - Bill 61, An Act to Amend the Public ---ADJOURNMENT Airports Act The House adjourned at 2:09 p.m. - Bill 62, An Act to Amend the Coroners Act - Bill 63, An Act to Amend the Victims of Crime Act