Ruth Cornea Anne Ward (With Nancy Luck & Virginia Nelson)

ESMONT ORAL HISTORIES

RUTH CORNEA ANNE WARD (WITH NANCY LUCK & VIRGINIA NELSON) ESMONT SENIOR CENTER AUGUST 14, 2001 INTERVIEWER: BERNIE JONES, DEVA WOODLEY

Participants: RW: Ruth Ward NL: Nancy Luck VN: Virginia Nelson RA: Rosa Agee JGH: Jetty Gardener Hardy BJ: Bernie Jones DW: Deva Woodley

Transcription: BJ: OK. Hi, Ms. Ward. Thank you for being able to chat with us about the Oral History project we’re doing of Esmont – Race and Place, the African American community history, and of growing up in the community and going to school at – the Esmont School and then on to Burley. I just wanted to ask you a few questions. My name is Bernie Jones, like I mentioned earlier. I’m the project manager for the project. and the questions I wanted to ask you are sort of very general —about what you remember from growing up in the community, and I just wanted to start off by asking what your name is... RW: Ruth Ward BJ: is that your full name? RW: Ruth Cornea. BJ: OK. Cornea... Ward RW: Anne Ward BJ: Anne? RW: that’s what my mamma gave me – four names. But that was Cornea Anne Ward BJ: OK. Are you known by any other names besides?... RW: Connie. BJ: Connie? RW: yeah BJ: OK. And what’s your year of birth? RW: 1935 BJ: same as my mom! (laughter) and where were you raised? RW: Esmont BJ: Esmont? And how long have you lived here? RW: um.... most of my life. BJ: OK RW: well, not... half of it. BJ: so where else have you lived besides Esmont? RW: Charlottesville. And New York. BJ: City?... I guess?

1 RW: yeah. BJ: OK. And when did you live in Charlottesville? RW: after I graduated BJ: from? RW: Burley. 1954. BJ: and when did you move to New York? RW: 1959... I believe. BJ: so how long did you live in New York? RW: 30 years. BJ: and then you came back. RW: yeah. BJ: to live in Esmont. RW: u-huh. BJ: and what part of NYC did you live in when you lived there? RW: I lived in Brooklyn, I lived in the Bronx, I lived in New York City... yeah, I ended up in the Bronx. [someone enters and says hello to everyone] BJ: are you currently retired or are you working? RW: retired. BJ: what sort of work did you do... RW: banking ?er: You came back to Esmont in what year? RW: 1988. [there is some talking in the background] BJ: I think I’ll just pause it for a minute... // NL: yeah. I got all of the hospital, but sometimes they had about 20 of us in one room. When I had my daughter there was a bed here, a bed here, a bed there... RA: so you’d sit out in the hall. I know I had to wait for my cast, so you’d be in a little hall, waiting to see if they were going to keep me or not. And they had to keep me, cause the cast wasn’t dry – (the always drying your cast then?), and I had to stay over night. But then they finally found somewhere to put me. (laughter) JGH: yeah, I know something about my father – he had his legs broken. BJ: well, I guess I can  [recording cuts off, then starts up again] BJ: what were your parents’ names? RW: Reverend and Ms. W. D. Ward (pause) Her name is Julia. BJ: Your dad was a minister? RW: mm-hm BJ: And what church was he the minister of? RW: Mount Pleasant BJ: Is that in Esmont? RW: Its in Keene, a couple of miles away. NL: and Nelson County and Scottsville – Ebenezer. RW: At that time. NL: oh, OK

2 BJ: and what years was that? That he was the minister at Mount Pleasant? RW: I think he started early... cause we were little kids NL: He was there for 21 years. RW: yeah. BJ: from 19... when to when? RW: oh... I’ve forgotten... (laughs) NL: He was there, say in 1935. BJ: OK. And for about 20 years after that. RW: yeah. BJ: and were your parents from Esmont, or were they from elsewhere? RW: no, my father was from Philadelphia BJ: and your mom was from...? RW: Esmont. BJ: do you remember what years your parents were born? RW: ooh... 1909... NL: and 1907. RW: and 1907. DW: Reverend Ward was born in 1909? RW: no – 7. NL: mama’s ’09. RW: ‘07. BJ: And did they live in Esmont? RW: mm-hm BJ: Their entire married lives? RW: mm-hm. Esmont. BJ: Did they have any relatives who lived in Esmont, too? Your mom... RW: Oh yeah! All of her brothers and sisters in Esmont. Her father—my mother’s father—and her sister and brother. BJ: Oh, OK. What was your... I guess maybe you could just tell me the names of some of your aunts and... RW: OK, well, my mother’s brothers and sisters are: Maude Adams... I forgot! Sadie... VN: Thomas RW: Thomas... John Nelson, which is her husband, Virginia’s -- that’s her husband. BJ: Virginia’s husband? OK. RW: and... Sadie Washington – Sadie had so many names! (laughter) BJ: and you’re Virginia? Your last name is... VN: Nelson. BJ: and your husband’s name was?... VN: John. BJ: OK RW: But I was saying that my mother’s father was her mother’s sister. They were sister and brother. BJ: and what was their names? RW: Hattie Nelson Gardener VN: there were 13 of those kids...

3 RW: yeah, 13. BJ: 13?? Wow. And then, I guess, was it your grandfather who was?... RW: her mother’s... BJ: oh, OK. And then your grandfather’s name was... RW: Joseph Nelson. BJ: and there’s a relationship to you too because it was... RW(?): in-laws. BJ: wow, when you have a small community, you always have that sort of mix... (laughter) RW: yeah, that’s what I (mix?) BJ: and John was Joseph’s son, you said? RW: yeah. BJ: and they all lived in Esmont, I take it. RW: mm-hm. BJ: And what did your grandfather—it would have been your mom’s dad—was he a preacher also? RW: no, no. I guess he was... we called him a farmer. NL: And Mac – he’d go through the community and plough people’s gardens. The mule’s name was ‘Mac’. BJ: His name was ‘Mac’?... RW: the mule. (laughter) BJ: oh, its the mule  OK, I knew somebody was Mac, just wasn’t sure what it was... the mule... (pause) now, make sure I remember: Your grandfather’s name was... RW: Joseph. BJ: Joseph, OK. And did they go to school in Esmont, the various relatives you were talking about? RW: yeah. I think they went to Glendower, which is a few miles away from here in Keene, Virginia. BJ: did any of them go to the Yancey school? RW: No. VN: Yeah, they didn’t even think about it RW: There was no Yancey school! (laughter). BJ: Oh, OK. Do you know anybody who went to the Yancey school? RW: When you say ‘Yancey’ – you mean the Esmont school? NL: There was the old Esmont high school. BJ: OK, the old Esmont School. RW: no, they went to Glendower. (Pause) BJ: And who were the teachers you had when you were at Esmont? RW: Oh, dear. BJ: Starting – as far back as you can remember when you started going to school there. RW: Mrs. Southall: She taught first grade. Mrs. Word—she was a Wilson then: She taught Music... um... Mrs. Jackson... oh, dear. Mrs. Hailstat... Mrs.... Mrs. Faulkner? NL: no, Fullman, and Summerall – principals. RW: oh, they were principals. BJ: And when did you start going to school there—at the Yancey – at the Esmont School?

4 RW: (calculating: 1960... 70...) NL: Probably ’41, cause I went in ‘40 RW: ‘41 BJ: And you stayed there until what year? When you went to Burley? RW: 1950. BJ: OK RW: Actually, 1949. (calculating...) between ’49 and ’50. BJ: So, Mr. Faulkner and—or was it Ms. Faulkner? RW: Mr. Faulkner – he was the principal. And part of that time, Mr. Summerall was the principal. And Denver Jones... NL: Geneva Wright. RW: ah yeah, Mrs. Wright. And Mrs. Redd. Hm... oh yeah, Mrs. McCoy. She just died... Well, I guess a couple of months ago... BJ: And who were some of your neighbors – what part of Esmont did you live in when you were a little girl? RW: Gardeners were our neighbors... BJ: Gardeners... RW: Most of the families (were our family). the Boldens were across the road, and... NL: Swan RW: Mr. Swan. That’s coming down this way. Up that, the other way, the opposite way was all white farms. BJ: was it called any specific neighborhood, where you were living in Esmont? RW: Just Esmont. BJ: Just Esmont? No route number? No rural route number? RW: um... NL: Route One RW: I don’t know. I don’t remember. BJ: And you said that these were all neighbors and family members? The Boldens, the Swans?... RW: Yeah. BJ: Do you remember any other neighbors or friends who weren’t people who you were related to you, who lived nearby you? Or you remember that your parents might have had as friends? NL: Lewis. RW: Oh, the Lewises—Mrs. Lewis. And I said Boldens: there’s two families of Boldens. The Copelands, they weren’t too far away. And... in that neighborhood that’s about it—Nelsons. RA: Paige RW: Paige? RA: Paige (on the other end?)—Lorraine. RW: oh, they weren’t there then. They were at the van Cleef’s then. RA: that’s right. BJ: and the Van Cleef’s—is that another community, or a neighborhood? RW: that’s starting into another community. BJ: oh, OK. And the time period you were talking about is the 1940s—as far as you remember? RW: yeah. BJ: Did you or your family have any friends or relatives living in Charlottesville at that time? RW: yeah, we had relatives in Charlottesville. BJ: Where did they live in Charlottesville? what community?

5 RW: I don’t know – I don’t know whether you would call – I don’t know the community name. It was along West Street. What was the name? NL: Yeah, West Street. BJ: Did you know anybody living in Vinegar Hill? RW: oh, no! (laughter) that’s not a place – that’s not where people lived. That’s where people went to hang out. BJ: oh, OK. RW: for bars and restaurants. BJ: (laughs) ooh. RW: where blacks hung out. BJ: Do you remember visiting Vinegar Hill? Or were you too young to go?... RW: (laughs) no!! (general laughter) BJ: Well, there were restaurants! Maybe you might have gone there during the daytime! (laughter) RW: We didn’t even get to Charlottesville that often. BJ: Oh, OK. RW: Vinegar Hill... (laughs) BJ: And when you did go to Charlottesville, did you go there to shop, or... for any other reason? RW: Actually, to look. BJ: to just look? RW: To look. We didn’t have money to buy anything BJ: And so how often do you remember going to Charlottesville? RW: Well, not too often... BJ: And do you remember how you got there? Did you take the bus? RW: My father would take us over there. NL: He occasionally took us to the movies. Once a month he took one of us to the movies. RW: he did? I don’t remember that. NL: yeah, he’d (stay at?) the drugstore and get big bag of peanuts (laughter) BJ: What theater was it? NL: um – Paramount. BJ: Was the theater segregated? RW: yes. BJ: and where did blacks use to sit at the theater? RW: Upstairs. In the balcony. Had the best seats! (laughter) NL: (unclear) (supposed to be going down?) BJ: And so did your father drive out to Charlottesville with you? RW: mm-hm (yes). They said he got there in about – ten minutes. (laughter) RW: But I don’t believe it. It takes at least 25 minutes to get there. But he drove pretty fast. NL: His grandfather drove an ox! His grandfather. Herwe are sistershe drove the ox over to take people to Spelling Bee over in Charlottesville as well. VN?: a horse and buggy. NL: it was an ox. An ox-wagon. The ox pulled the cart.

6 VN?: yeah. NL: and he took (unclear) over people to a spelling bee (unclear) RW: Oh, Mrs. Rebecca Jordan was one of the persons he took. She used to be a teacher. She was a teacher, too. VN: Dirt roads NL: yeah, dirt roads BJ: And what was his name again? This was – I think you said John, or... RW: No, not – who was it? NL: Great-grandpa Goosby. BJ: His last name was Goosby? NL: Lewis Goosby. BJ: OK. He was your great... NL: Our daddy’s grandfather. BJ: Right, your great grandfather. You mentioned Rebecca Jordan—did he?... RW: no. she was one of the persons, one of the students. NL: Rebecca Jordan, one of the older people of the community that he took over to a Spelling Bee at First Baptist Church on Main Street. VN?: Y’all remember a lot! BJ: So did you great grandfather used to drive people back and forth—into Charlottesville? RW: Yeah, with the Ox. VN?: (?) Lewis. NL: remember the (taxi?) in those days. BJ: what time period was that? NL: OK, what time period... I knew it because Rebecca Jordan, the older person, told me. but I don’t know what time it was. She is deceased now, but she was one of my seniors and she did share it with me. And he’d just take—whenever anybody had to go to Charlottesville, he’d take them on his ox-cart. VN?: dirt roads. Dirt roads back then. BJ: I guess the Scottsville-Charlottesville road? Is that the road they used to call it? Or did they call it something else? RW: it’s the same road here. It’s the same road, it just wasn’t paved. NL: we called it the Esmont-Scottsville road. BJ: do you know anyone who lived in Proffit at that time? RW: I don’t know where Proffit is... NL: that’s over at Stony Point where (?) pastor. RW: oh. BJ: do you remember any school rivalries between the Esmont school and the schools in Charlottesville in terms of teams, or sports, and things of that nature? NL: baseball. RW: from Burley, not from Esmont. Rivalries everywhere they went. BJ: it was Burley school and which school? RW: oh, dear. I don’t remember the other schools around. They used to play football. BJ: Jefferson? RW: no, Jefferson had  Jefferson stopped when Burley started. Uh... I can’t even remember the places they used to go. I know they used to go to Lynchburg.

7 BJ: so when you said ‘Jefferson stopped,’ you mean the high school discontinued once Burley opened? RW: yeah, it did. DW: and the Esmont school also discontinued when Burley opened? RW: no, it continued as an elementary school for a short while. This is long before Yancey started. BJ: you mentioned you used to go to Charlottesville to look around? RW: yeah BJ: what do you remember of Charlottesville back then? RW: the segregated bus stations. BJ: OK. Tell us a little bit about that ?ee: bathrooms RW: we had  well, the whites sat in the front and the blacks were... well, actually blacks were on this side and whites were in the front, you couldn’t go across passed that door into the white area. BJ: and these were the public busses in Charlottesville RW: yes. And of course the bathrooms were segregated, too. And of course quality of the black side was naturally not as good as the white side. BJ: right. And these were the bathrooms located where? In the bus station? RW: yeah, in the bus station. BJ: and where was the bus station located? RW: water street NL: on the end of East Water Street. (Pause) there are times when black people fought the whites and went there anyhow. Janet Scott was in college at the time, all dressed up, looked like she stepped out of a magazine... she went to the white and they let her through. They let her in. BJ: and this was what year, do you remember? NL: uh... Rosa, my sister, was in college... when was Rosa in college, cause they were in college for the same time. RW: (counts ‘54, ‘55...) about ‘56, around there. NL: they would stare at her and they couldn’t help but wait on her, she looked so good. BJ: and this happened where? RW: the bus station. DW: Janice Scott? RW: Janet Scott. NL: she was... what’s her married name? (Corn?) RW: you interviewed her. You interviewed her  NL: Waltene Scott. RW: Madelia’s sister. BJ: oh sure. I know exactly who you mean. She lives in Ohio now, I believe. RW: mm-hm. BJ: and do you remember many restaurants downtown where you used to go eat, or...? RW: just in the bus station. That was it. NL: there were several on Vinegar Hill, but we don’t know the names RW: we don’t (laughter) BJ: black restaurants where you can go eat.

8 DW: so was Vinegar Hill a very grown-up place, like, the adults went there? RW: yes, yes, yes. NL: my husband had a lot of people who lived off of Vinegar Hill. The lower part of Vinegar Hill. BJ: were there any stores your parents used to go to? RW: yeah  Robinson’s. To buy our clothes at Robinson’s. NL: and the shoe store  Miller’s shoe store RW: Victory shoe store NL: Victory shoe store, yeah. RW: Leggetts NL: at that time there was a Montgomery Ward there, too. VN?: 5 and 10 stores, too RW: yeah, Woolworth’s 5 and 10 store. BJ: do you remember segregation in the stores in terms of what stores you could go to? RW: oh yeah. BJ: what do you remember about it? RW: well, you just  well, first of all you didn’t sit down. Blacks didn’t sit down BJ: where was this, at the restaurants? RW: at Woolworth’s. You could order your food, but you stood up on the end of the counter. You didn’t sit down to eat. I don’t think they sat down until about 1954. Around that time. NL: it was a little later than 1954 that we could sit down. BJ: and how about when you go to the store to get your clothes  do you remember anything in particular about that? DW: could you try clothes on? RW: I don’t think so NL: no. RW: you’d bring it back. You’d have to bring it back if it didn’t fit. NL: if I’m thinking straight, at that time you could try it on, but you couldn’t take it out. RW: couldn’t take it out?? NL: couldn’t take it home and bring it back. Not black people. RW: oh, you mean, if it didn’t fit you couldn’t bring it back? NL: no. You had to look at it at the store. You can’t carry it home and say ‘it didn’t fit, I decided to bring it back.’ They didn’t let black people do that. RW: oh, I don’t know. NL: but if you were a lighter black-skin person you could do that. BJ: really. Interesting. NL: like one of my aunts. BJ: what stores were these? NL: Robinson’s. BJ: and what was it located  Robinson’s store. RW: it was on Main Street. BJ: did you know the Benjamin Yancey family? Did you know them? RW: well, they lived here in the community  I just know them by name. I didn’t really know them. NL: I knew the judge just by name.

9 BJ: what are some of your earliest memories of living in Esmont  that you can remember when you were little? RW: hm. You mean around the house? BJ: living in the community, things that were memorable... RW: in the community?... the only thing we did is go to school and go to church. BJ: and that was your dad’s church that you went to. DW: was there a lot of interaction between the churches. RW: not like it is now. No, not that much. Well, I guess we all went to each other’s churches. Or, we went wherever he went, and he went to a lot of churches. NL: and stayed all day long. (Laughter) VN?: used to be BTU, didn’t it. RA?: don’t have that now... NL: yes. BTU (?) service. (Laughter) BJ: were there any community events that brought the community together that you can remember. RW: church. BJ: just the church. RW: Parent Teacher Association. PTA NL: and Progressive club BJ: the progressive club? What was that? NL: that’s where the farmers (?) came together to show off their vegetables and we used to have a cannery  we used to can vegetables. And at the Odd Fellow’s Hall, which is now the Ward Center. BJ: where was that located, that hall? NL: its right  (you can throw a rock there almost?). The police (?) station BJ: what did you do for fun when you were little? Did you used to play at the house or? RW: just play at the house. Yes. VN: we used to visit one another. RW: yeah, in the area. Right in the community VN: we don’t do that no more. BJ: did any of your parents belong to any community organizations? RW: yeah  what was it, Household of Ruth? NL: yeah, Household of Ruth. RW: my mother belonged to the Household of Ruth. My father was an Odd Fellow. NL: Garden club... RW: Garden club... BJ: what was the Garden club’s name, do you remember? RW: Greencroft. Still is. BJ: they’re still active today? RW: mm-hm. BJ: was it primarily for gardening purposes? Those who gardened? RW: mm-hm. They used to have gardens to support the community. BJ: they used to sell things from their garden? RW: no, I don’t think they sold it. They just gave it away.

10 BJ: when you’re saying ‘they gave it away’  they gave out seeds or plants? RW: no no  they had a garden back here for the seniors. Anything that grew in the garden they would give it to the seniors. BJ: oh, of the community. RW: yeah. The seniors worked in it. NL: and then older people had the progressive club. And it was just like a contest: see who’s garden would come first. I remember my daddy and another lady in the community. She said ‘I planted my beans (?)’. Well daddy went home, planted his and watered them to make sure his came first. And then a special time of the year they’d all bring them to the Odd Fellows Hall. All kinds of vegetables. And the (County Extensions?) used to come up and judge and they got red ribbons or blue ribbons or white ribbons. And they told how to make the best garden. BJ: nice. And when you mentioned you lived in Charlottesville, were you working in town, or going to school in town? RW: working BJ: where were you working? RW: I worked in a private family, and I worked as a waitress DW: where? RW: (laughs) what’s the name of that place?.... The Virginian. Up at the university, I worked there as a waitress. BJ: and when you said you worked for a private family, were you doing domestic work? RW: yeah BJ: what family did you work for? RW: oh dear. I don’t remember the names. BJ: do you remember what years you were doing that sort of work? RW: it had to be... 56-7-8 in there someplace. Because I left here in ‘59. BJ: you worked in The Virginian during what time period? RW: in and around that same time. BJ: 1958-59? RW: yeah, around there. BJ: what do you remember of the university back then, since you were working at the Virginian  I guess at The Corner? RW: nothing except that it was over there. That’s it. (Laughter) BJ: had no dealings with the university. RW: no. Just waiting on the students. DW: how was that? RW: not so bad. DW: Yeah? RW: not so bad, no. (Pause) RW: that was pretty close to where the laws on desegregation had passed at that time. As a matter of fact, I think they passed in ‘54. BJ: right RW: yeah. So things were beginning to get a little bit better. BJ: how were they changing--what you remember--around that time?

11 RW: well, I didn’t have that many dealings with them anyway. But, you know, working with them, waiting on them, they were all pretty nice as far as I could see. Blacks couldn’t come in the restaurants to eat, but we could go in there to work. NL: Blacks couldn’t go to the university either. RW: Oh, I don’t know when that started. NL: no, they didn’t. Because when my son  I had just gotten married  I said ‘my son will graduate from this college!’ My son did graduate from the University of Virginia. BJ: what year? NL: well, I said that when he was about two years old. BJ: when did he graduate? NL: in ‘78. I claimed it. (Laughter) (when he was 2?) BJ: where did you finally do your grocery shopping? NL: Baine. RW: who?? NL: Baine  remember, daddy got groceries from Baine and (?) RW: who’s Baine?? NL: Baine at Keene. RA: in Keene. RW: oh! (Laughs) I don’t remember... I remember him going down to Esmont  Mrs. (Steed?) NL: and (?? Steed?) and Douglass. RA: and Laine  Ms. Laine. RW: Ms. Laine? RA: you don’t remember Ms. Laine? NL: yeah, Laine was (Steed?). He had a store full then, in the back of a Post Office. RW: all I remember is Mrs. (Steed?). NL: (Steed?), and (?) RW: oh, and Cur what’s the man at Keene? NL: Baine!! RW: no. RA: oh, I know  Mahoney RW: Mahone. Mr. Mahone. BJ: did they have stores RW: yeah, they had stores. That Green Mountain store you see there now, Mr. Mahone used to own it. NL: (?) Townsend family. RW: oh yeah, Mr. Simpson RA: Simpson, yeah. Jones. RW: yeah, that’s right. Mr. Jones NL: yeah. Jim Jones was oldest. RA: Jim Jones. BJ: did they sell fruits? Vegetables? Or just groceries? RW: everything. BJ: did your family do any farming at all, besides the  RW: oh yeah, sure. We raised our own. BJ: with your dad being a preacher. What kinds of things did you grow on the farmland? RW: potatoes. Peas  all vegetables and fruit trees

12 NL: daddy had everything on his land. RA: everything from vegetable life. NL: (?) just to look at, because (he didn’t like it?) BJ: did he have farm animals too? RW: no. BJ: no farm animals? RW: I don’t remember... NL: he did, yes he did. He had cows and horses and pigs. Especially when we lived out in the woods RA: she wasn’t around... RW: (laughing) I wasn’t around  I don’t remember. NL: remember Minnie? We used to walk on to Minnie  mama used to (waive her mane?) RW: I don’t remember Minnie (laughing) BJ: how many acres of land did they have? RW: oh, I forgot. How many?... oh, it was like NL: well, 6 counting the woods RW: 6 or 7. That we still have. NL: (?) BJ: and do you still use to farm land today, or did you sell it, or...? RW: oh, no. NL: (?) when we lived down in the woods--not when we (?) RW: Its still there but we don’t farm it. BJ: was there a major commercial center in Esmont at that time? RW: no. BJ: so Charlottesville was the nearest place, I guess. RW: well, I guess you could call down where the post office was. The (?) place. They had the bank, train station, the grocery store, one clothes  Mrs. Lane, I think it was  where you could buy material. I guess you could call that. DW: did you all have a name for it? RW: Esmont depot. That’s what I remember. NL: or ‘The Bottom’ RW: The Bottom. (Laughter) RW: ‘its down in The Bottom’ RA: ‘Down in The Bottom’  you’re right (laughter) BJ: do you remember what that was like in terms of segregation, during that time period? RW: I guess you more or less knew your place, and we had no problems. Certain things we knew we couldn’t do. You didn’t do. NL: And if you did anything (?) up on the hill, we blacks  the whites got it first. Like these street lights? We (all the community) street lights. My daddy fought for those lights. But they gave it to the white community first, when they didn’t ask for them. And they ran short up here. So when my father died we got so far. And I fought and got the rest of them. BJ: and that was in what time period? RW: that’s recent compared to what they’re talking about. They’re talking about during the Esmont school.

13 NL: oh, that time. RW: so there were no lights then. NL: I guess its before that  this is back in the ‘60s. RW: yeah, she’s not coming up that far. NL: oh, OK, OK. BJ: but its still important (?) hear about that. But when you said ‘you know your place,’ like, what kinds of things couldn’t you do that you remember? RW: well, (pause) I don’t know how to explain it... NL: what was the question? BJ: that you were saying that you knew your place  like, for example, I was talking about (expect to living?) in Esmont, like going out to the depot... NL: well, you knew you could not go in those stores. You wouldn’t go. BJ: and which stores were those at the Esmont depot area? Were there any ones you couldn’t go to that you remember? NL: now that part I don’t remember. RW: any time you went into a store. You knew not to touch things like you can touch now. Blacks just didn’t do it, but a white person could. VN?: you couldn’t pick up nothing RW: so you knew that you couldn’t. You knew you shouldn’t, so you didn’t. VN?: Mr. Steed used to go around and look down  your parents would make a note of what they wanted and he would walk around and pick up the stuff. You couldn’t pick it up like you do today. BJ: and which store was this? RW: Mr. Steed. Down in The Bottom. BJ: what kind of store did he have? RW: regular groceries. One thing about him, though, as far as segregation is concerned, if you came in before a white person  you came in order. He didn’t let... in some of the stores they would wait on the white person first. But if you came into his store, he waited on you in the order that you came into the store. So he was a pretty nice person. RA?: I can see him now, walking around... (laughter) BJ: were there any other churches in the community that you remember besides the church that your dad was a pastor of? RW: this one, New Green Mountain, New Hope, and that’s it. BJ: did you attend services at the others or visit any of them? RW: yeah. BJ: what sort of events did you attend at the other churches? RW: they would have, like, revivals. Every year revivals  they lasted a week. VN?: (?) RW: yeah, they had food... (laughter) (?) RA: certain programs... RW: yeah, they had different programs, or the choir would have their anniversary program, or the ushers will have their program  there was always something going on in the church. VN?: (?)

14 RW: yeah. BJ: you mentioned that you moved out of Charlottesville in 1959. Why did you decide to move? Cause you moved up to New York, you said, for 30 years. RW: well, I knew a family  I was a friend of a girl, Annie Gooding. And I knew they were going to New York so I went too. It was a way to get out of here! (Laughs) Really! So I went with them and I stayed. BJ: were they people living in Esmont  the Gooding family? RW: in Keene. They were members of our church. We all grew up together. BJ: you say ‘a way to get out of here’  I mean, so just tell me why is it in particular you wanted to get away from (being around?) here? RW: oh, there was nothing to do here. Vn?: there was nothing to do. BJ: in terms of work? RW: well, I knew up there you could make more money, you know. There were more opportunities. Here it was domestic only. I went up there, I went directly into a bank! You couldn’t  I don’t know when blacks started working in banks down here. Do you remember? NL: that hasn’t been too very long ago, but I don’t remember. RW: even then  you could be a teller, and that was about it, you know. But  NL: I’d say in the last 10 years it seems like. RW: OK. So there was nothing to do here. BJ: and what kind of work did men do? Because if women did domestic work  what kind of work did men do here in the community? RW: laboring, building  my father built houses. NL: carpentry RW: carpentry work. And farming. They mostly worked on white people’s farms. The van Cleefs  just about everybody in Esmont. NL: chauffeurs BJ: the van Cleef family? RW: yeah, the van Cleefs. They lived just above us. MacWilliams and the Lloyds  they employed most of the people in Esmont. VN?: Coleses RW: Coleses, MacWilliams, van Cleefs, and Lloyds. Just about everybody in Esmont worked for them. My father worked for the Coleses. In his earlier days as a butler. NL: and chauffer. BJ: that’s before he became a pastor. RW: he was a pastor at the time. BJ: he was a pastor, so he was a pastor doing both work? RW: mm-hm. BJ: so then, your dad was a pastor, but he was also doing farm laboring and what else was he doing? And butlering, you said? RW: well, his day job... well, he built houses too! I think that houses came later, but he worked at Coleses at the day time, but on Sundays he preached in different churches. NL: houses came in the ‘50s, beginning of the 50s RW: in the early ‘50s he started building houses. I mean, he built our house and then when ahead and built other people’s houses. BJ: right.

15 RA?: he helped build the church RW: yeah, he helped build our church, too. RA?: Mount Pleasant NL: and the Ward Center  cause the Ward Center was named after him. RA: the Ward Center RW: and the Ward Center. You see, I was gone then. BJ: what center was named after your dad? RW: the Ward Center. DW: and that used to be Odd Fellows Hall? RW: yeah. NL: it still is upstairs, but downstairs my daddy was added on when he died. And they named it after him. BJ: what year did he die, your dad? NL: in 1968 RW: 1967. NL: yeah, right. You’re right. Because (Carl was at the community center?) BJ: so did your dad preach at other churches besides being the pastor at... RW: yeah, they were calling him all the time  the different churches  to preach. But he was the pastor of Mount Pleasant first. Then, also he was the pastor of Scottsville  when he died he was still the pastor of Scottsville. And he was pastor of Shipman and  where is (?)? (laughs) I don’t know the name of the city... but he pastored several churches. BJ: can you think of anything else that you want to say? Vn?: Thessalonia RW: yeah, but I don’t know where Thessalonia is located in (?) RA: Palmyra! RW: yeah, it was in Palmyra. In that county, but I don’t know the name of the // (recording cuts off)