1 Ideal Cryonic Scenario, Then I Think There Is A
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1 ideal cryonic scenario, then I think there is a
2 case to be made of a district court, considering whether
3 we are awakening a previously existing person
4 rather than having created a child.
5 DR. ROTHBLATT: Great. All righty. Well, I'd
6 like to suggest -- first thank you very much --
7 SEBASTIAN SETHE: Thank you.
8 DR. ROTHBLATT: -- Sebastian. And we are now
9 at the 20-minute informal discussion period. So by
10 all means, continue to interact with
11 Sebastian. But if you want to stay here and do
12 that, that's fine. Otherwise, you can walk up
13 stairs, there is more food and refreshments
14 upstairs, and coffee and whatnot. Just be sure to
15 be back down here in your seats by 10:10.
16 (Whereupon, the proceedings went off the
17 record for a break.)
18 DR. ROTHBLATT: I would like to welcome
19 everybody back into formal session and our 1st
20 Colloquia on the Law of Transhuman Persons. Our
21 next presenter is John Dedon. He is a partner at
22 the law firm of Odin, Feldman & Pittleman, a
23 professional corporation in Fairfax, Virginia. He
24 is an expert on trust and estate law in particular,
25 and he will be speaking on the topic of functions 58
1 of a trust protector during biostasis and at the
2 time of cryogenic revival.
3 John.
4 JOHN DEDON, ESQUIRE: Thank you, Martine.
5 You know as a trust in estate lawyer we spend
6 most of our time trying to save a million dollars
7 or $10 million or whatever the amount is in estate
8 tax, or try to make sure that assets go down the
9 generations and are protected for future decedents.
10 So this is quite a challenge, to be part of this
11 program and talk about transhuman persons; and
12 Cryonic so, Martine, thank you very much for
13 inviting me.
14 The topic, as Martine said, functions of a
15 trust protector during biostasis and at the time of
16 cryogenic revival. Let me set up the fact pattern
17 for you because, as we've gone from subjects that
18 are certainly difficult to grasp, and I think now we
19 are going to come back somewhat to practical. What
20 we have here is Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic and they're
21 establishing a trust. And the primary purpose of
22 the trust is that assets will be there upon their
23 revival from the cryogenic state. So they are
24 going to have assets in place during biostasis, but
25 also it's going to be there for them when they come 59
1 back. And the assets could be placed in the trust
2 when they're alive, ideally they have the resources
3 to make that happen. Or maybe the
4 asset will be placed upon their death.
5 So we are relying on some traditional tools right
6 now to have this happen. It's quite common to
7 create what's called a dynasty trust. The idea is
8 that you create assets or you create a trust for
9 the assets to pass down through the generations
10 and, therefore, future children, family members, et
11 cetera. That's already there we can do that.
12 What we haven't done before or what is uncommon is,
13 well, what happens if Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic don't
14 come out of biostasis? Where do the assets go?
15 Does the law allow to even create this trust in the
16 first place? So those are the types of things that
17 we are dealing with. So just to set the table,
18 these are our facts: Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic, they're
19 the grantors, they have created the trust. They
20 are also the primary beneficiaries. We may have
21 other beneficiaries as well, but it's primarily for
22 them. And we need a trustee because they’re going to
23 be the person or the entity that manages these
24 assets.
25 So, not quite the technology problems we had 60
1 before. (laughter)
2 So we've set up the parties. We are going to
3 talk about the role of the trust protector, talk a
4 little bit about who should serve as the trust
5 protector, and then we will zero in and talk about
6 the trust protector during biostasis and then
7 during cryogenic revival, and we'll finish up with
8 some administrative issues. Before I get to the
9 trust protector, though, let me come back and talk
10 a little bit about who the trustee should be. And
11 we are fortunate that we'll have a discussion later
12 in the day from Eric, who is with an institutional
13 trust company, so we will hear from his
14 perspective. But let's first talk about, well,
15 just to set this up, who is the trustee? The
16 trustee could be an individual, it could be a
17 family member. What you really want, though, in
18 this situation, because you don't know how long the
19 trust is going to go for, you really need an
20 institutional trustee. You need an institutional
21 trustee because of the permanence. You want an
22 institution that, even it's merged, there would be a
23 successor. You want the professional management
24 that an institutional trustee can provide. You
25 want somebody or some entity that does this for a 61
1 living. So it's important to have that
2 professional management. You also want the
3 fiduciary duty that a corporate trustee can
4 provide. A corporate trustee is going to be
5 licensed and regulated, they're used to handling these
6 types of things on a regular basis. And the
7 dynasty trust that I talked about, that is commonly
8 used these days. It would be unusual to have
9 somebody serving other than a corporate trustee.
10 So I haven't gotten to the trust protector yet, but
11 we know we will have an institutional trustee to
12 manage this trust, which finally, leads me to the
13 role of the trust protector. The trust protector
14 is really there to do what the grantor -- what
15 Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic would do if they were alive,
16 if they could. They are there to oversee the
17 trust. And for the very reasons that we have the
18 institutional trustee serving as the trustee, we
19 need somebody who's more flexible, who can adapt to
20 changes in the law, to changes in the facts, and
21 have the ability to amend the trust as necessary.
22 And so, while that may not be an institution to
23 serve as the trust protector, because again of
24 those fiduciary duties, it needs to be someone who
25 has more flexibility. Could it be family? Could 62
1 it be beneficiaries? Well, again, we are talking
2 about a trust that can go on for decades, or
3 centuries. So it's unlikely that you're going to
4 have one of those folks serve in that role.
5 I know you're familiar with the Ted Williams'
6 situation. There’s not the independence either
7 that you get if you have a family member. So we've
8 eliminated institutions. We've eliminated family.
9 The logical role, to serve in that role, is a law
10 firm or an accounting firm. They have the
11 the licensing requirements. They have the
12 expertise, but they're more fluid. They don't have
13 quite the same restrictions, the same regulations,
14 so they're able to move in and make the kind of
15 changes that may be appropriate.
16 Now, having said that, you have the lawyer,
17 the CPA who's able to make certain changes. It
18 doesn't mean that these folks are not serving as a
19 fiduciary just as the trustee is. We are talking
20 about someone who owes the same duty of
21 loyalty and the same duty of impartiality to
22 Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic and to the beneficiaries,
23 just as the bank does, as the corporate.
24 Now we said it's important to have a trust
25 protector to deal with changing law, changing 63
1 facts. What are some of the specific things that
2 you'd be relying on the trust protector to do?
3 Well, one would be to change the situs of the
4 trust, the location of the trust. You can create a
5 dynasty trust right now that continues in
6 perpetuity for beneficiaries. You think of South
7 Dakota, Delaware, Alaska, these are states that are
8 friendly to dynasty trusts. But what happens if
9 that law changes? The trust protector would be the
10 one to say, you know, that we need to move from
11 South Dakota, we need to move from Delaware, need
12 to find an environment that's more friendly to
13 having this trust go on forever. Some states may
14 tax income and distributions from the trust more
15 than others. You would want a trust protector who
16 again, can find a friendlier environment for tax
17 purposes. Maybe a state has particular laws that
18 require distributions which are consistent with
19 what the grantors want. So we would also be able
20 to move it around. So, in general, a role of a
21 trust protector: to be able to change the situs to
22 the trust, as may be necessary 50 years from now or
23 500 years from now.
24 How about changing the trustee? Well, we know
25 right now we are selecting a trustee because the 64
1 trustee is friendly to what the grantor wants to
2 do. It can do for -- in the future what we believe
3 Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic want, but that may not always
4 be the case. Maybe their philosophy changes,
5 maybe do get merged. We need to have the ability
6 to shift to another trustee if necessary. Now it
7 may be limited to just shifting to another
8 corporate trustee to make sure it's consistent with
9 what Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic want but we still need
10 to have that flexibility built in.
11 How about during the time that Mr. and
12 Mrs. Cryonic are in the biostasis? What if
13 we want to make distributions then? Okay. So this
14 trust isn't just for when they're cryogenically
15 revived, it's also during biostasis perhaps. So we
16 want to have flexibility to allow distributions to
17 come out if we can improve that care. Perhaps
18 there are other beneficiaries in the trust as well.
19 Even though this is primarily for biostasis and
20 upon revival, maybe there is part of the trust
21 that's being or could be used for children, for
22 future generations. So the trust protector would
23 work in conjunction with the trustee in making
24 these distributions on an annual basis.
25 Now I hope you're getting a sense what we are 65
1 talking about is a trust protector who is really
2 acting in many ways on behalf of Mr. and Mrs.
3 Cryonic, perhaps to a degree that they have the
4 ability to rewrite the trust. Okay. So, yes,
5 they're fiduciaries. Yes, they have to do what's
6 in the best interest of the grantors and of the
7 beneficiaries. But who's to say what that means a
8 hundred or 500 years from now? You're giving the
9 trust protector a lot of authority, to really alter
10 the terms of this trust. So perhaps, there are
11 things that you want the trust protector to do,
12 perhaps there are things that are not. This is
13 really a double-edged sword when you consider it
14 from the perspective of Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic.
15 Perhaps if you're going to give them the ability,
16 them being the trust protector, to alter
17 distributions, perhaps you want to do that within a
18 limited class. Well, sure we can give it to
19 children or lineal decedents, but you can't give it
20 to beneficiaries outside of that. Yes, we want to
21 give something to charities, but it has to be
22 charities within a particular purpose. So as we
23 figure out what terms we need to design the
24 flexibility we need, we also want to make sure that we
25 build in restrictions so you can't totally go off 66
1 base with the assets that are in this trust.
2 Now one thing comes to mind when you're
3 designing a trust like this, what happens if there
4 is an impossibility, if it becomes apparent for
5 whatever the reason, that Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic
6 are not going to be revived? What happens to the
7 assets then? Well, that's going to be built into
8 the trust or at least it certainly should be.
9 Well, what happens if the beneficiary that's named--
10 if ultimately there is no taker, or doesn't exist
11 anymore? Is the trust protector then going to have
12 flexibility to say, okay, it was going to this
13 charity, we are going to keep it consistent with
14 what the goals are of a charity at that time. As I
15 give this talk, and as I prepared for it, I find
16 myself saying more what-ifs than this is what you
17 want. And, you know, Martine started out the
18 discussion by talking about the evolution of the
19 law and I guess I shouldn't feel guilty that we
20 have a lot of questions that need to be addressed,
21 rather than answers. So this is part of the
22 evolutionary process and I think that really sums
23 up what the trust protector is about, it's designed
24 to have that flexibility.
25 Okay, so we talked about some of the general 67
1 things that a trust protector would do if you
2 designed what's called a dynasty trust and this
3 really is simply a dynasty trust. Things like
4 changing the situs, the trustee, the distributions
5 and so forth. Those are roles that would be
6 traditionally performed now for a dynasty trust,
7 and certainly as we designed one for Mr. and
8 Mrs. Cryonic.
9 But what about, are there additional roles that
10 the trust protector would play particularly in view
11 of biostasis in particular of view of revival?
12 Well, you could make an argument that the role
13 should even be enhanced because not only are you
14 doing the traditional things that you would see in
15 a dynasty trust, but you should have an additional
16 role. You should have the role of monitoring what
17 the technology is. What is the state-of-the-art, of
18 nanotechnology? What is the state of the law? Are
19 you sitting by and making sure that the trust is
20 progressing as it should? Is the money is being
21 managed properly, or should you be looking to see
22 if the standard of care, for example, is being
23 maintained? So what I'm suggesting is just because
24 of the uncertainty of what we are talking about, it
25 becomes more important perhaps, to have that 68
1 supervisory role, to have more a monitoring role.
2 It's not the type of role that a typical
3 institution would want or is equipped to do. It's
4 a role that is more appropriate for the law firm to
5 take over. So biostasis, trust protector, it can
6 be even more of a role to play.
7 How about biostasis and ALCOR? If we are
8 assuming at this point that ALCOR is the likely
9 candid for where Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic are
10 preserved, should the trust protector not only be
11 supervising and monitoring the state of the law, but
12 ALCOR as well? Is ALCOR financially sound? Are
13 they still offering the degree of care that's
14 expected? Are there competitors now, to ALCOR?
15 There may be one competitor to ALCOR now, 500 years
16 from now, there may be 10. Are we able to provide a
17 standard of care that's better somewhere else?
18 DR. ROTHBLATT: Very good question.
19 JOHN DEDON, ESQUIRE: Do Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic
20 have the resources that would allow them to move
21 from ALCOR to another caregiver? So who's going to
22 make those decisions? The trustee may have a role,
23 but it's really going to fall to the trust
24 protector.
25 Biostasis and litigation, what does that mean? 69
1 Well, maybe there would be a situation where trust
2 funds should be used consistent with ALCOR in the
3 best interests of Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic. I know
4 ALCOR talks about a situation where they needed a
5 court order to have a body released to their care
6 from a hospital. So you could certainly see if you
7 have a reluctant hospital that you would want to be
8 able to use trust funds to allow them to come in as
9 quickly as possible so that they can get to Mr. and
10 Mrs. Cryonic in the time they need to create the
11 best chance of revival. So there could be state
12 problems where you need to ensure that the Arizona,
13 or wherever the care may be given, is again
14 consistent. So we may need to use the trust funds
15 to support ALCOR, or independent of ALCOR, we could
16 also be in a situation where we may need litigation
17 against ALCOR. Maybe we do want to move Mr. and
18 Mrs. Cryonic to a different caregiver. So who
19 knows what the specifics may be, but if we have the
20 flexibility built into a trust protector to use the
21 funds for whatever purpose there is; we've covered
22 it. We don't know what we've covered, but we know
23 we've at least covered the possibilities.
24 Now, if Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic are comfortable
25 in empowering a trust protector with this type of 70
1 authority, there is no -- well, I can only speak
2 for myself. I don't possibly have the knowledge to
3 do all of these things, I need help. I need help
4 from people that are sitting here in this room
5 today. I may need help on a lobbying front to make
6 sure that the licensing in the state or on the
7 Federal level is appropriate, it's the scientific
8 help. So the trust protector should be authorized
9 to use funds within that trust to retain whatever
10 assistance is necessary to again, see that biostasis,
11 and ultimately revival is - you're giving the best
12 chance to Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic during the
13 biostasis, and for revival.
14 Now Chris, who is our next speaker, is going to
15 talk about cryogenic revival and the legal rights
16 of Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic once they come into that,
17 so I'm not going to touch much on that. However,
18 what happens when we are coming to the point of
19 biostasis where it now appears that we do have
20 Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic who will become revived?
21 Well, what does "revived" mean? Well, I think it
22 means that they're certainly functional, they are
23 able to live an independent life; but I don't think
24 that's going to happen overnight, or over weeks or
25 perhaps over months. There -- even though 71
1 technology wise we may be in a position to move them
2 along, there is still going to be that period of
3 time when there needs to be a comfort, where they
4 can be self-sufficient. Who is going to make the
5 decisions as to what degree of autonomy is given to
6 Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic, coming out of revival? So I
7 think the trust protector has a role to play in
8 that as well, working with ALCOR, working with the
9 trustee to see that that's a smooth transition.
10 Because it would be logical once we do have full
11 revival and independence, we may not need this
12 trust anymore. Okay. If we then are able to have
13 Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic, who are back into society and
14 able to live a moral life, the trust can terminate.
15 Or at least they have the option of terminating it.
16 They can very well decide that, I need years to go
17 by before I'm entirely comfortable, I want to
18 continue to benefit from having the institutional
19 trustee manage the assets for me. But at least
20 they will have an option and certainly more control
21 over their future. So at what point though, do you
22 give them full control? And I think as I said, the
23 trust protector can play a role in that as well.
24 Now we talked about the importance of the
25 trustee and having an institutional trustee, and 72
1 one of the reasons for that was the permanence.
2 Well, you run into the issue of permanence as well
3 with the trust protector. If you're going to
4 choose a law firm or accounting firm, how do you
5 know that they're going to be around forever? You
6 need to build in some of those same safeguards. So
7 what you are really doing is you may have an
8 attorney or a CPA that you're working with
9 currently, but you're really hiring a law firm.
10 You're providing that if and when that attorney is
11 not around, the next one is, the law firm is. You
12 need to build in some institutional knowledge for
13 the trust protector, just as you have for the
14 institution. And it brings up a point, if you are
15 going to build that knowledge from the start and on
16 a continuum, when does the trust protector get
17 involved? Does the trust protector get involved
18 upon the death -- or the second death of Mr. and
19 Mrs. Cryonic? Do they get involved now? The --
20 really I think the rationale for involving them now
21 would be while Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic are alive.
22 Who knows about what their intent is or who knows
23 more about the cryonic process than Mr. and
24 Mrs. Cryonic? So by working with them now to do
25 more than simply have a role in setting up the 73
1 trust, you're able to get a sense of what their
2 intent is. You're able to start and define that
3 monitoring role we talked about, that supervisory
4 role. And by working with them now, hopefully,
5 you're able to then institutionalize that within
6 the law firm and pass it along so that it is
7 preserved, and we are as close as we can to that
8 intent when some of these things need to be acted
9 upon in future years. So I apologize if some of
10 this sounds like a Jerry Seinfeld show with, you
11 know, what about that, what about this, but I think
12 what we are doing is really asking questions
13 or identifying issues, and we are trying to draft
14 with that flexibility in mind, notwithstanding the
15 fact that we have an irrevocable trust that the
16 terms within certain limits are going to be abided
17 by for long into the future.
18 Compensation of trust protector. Well, there
19 are a host of ways to take care of that. You could
20 pay the trust protector an annual fee, a percent of
21 assets under management, for example, that you
22 would often see how a trustee gets paid, an
23 institutional trustee. You could be paying an
24 hourly rate. You could compensate the trust
25 protector on just a retainer basis. A creative way 74
1 perhaps, of building into the compensation would be
2 a kicker so that there is an additional amount paid
3 if Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic or when Mr. and Mrs.
4 Cryonic are revived, so you've created an incentive
5 to monitor what ALCOR is doing, what the law is
6 doing. You've created that incentive for the trust
7 protector to get to the point where we all want to
8 be, we want to get to the point where we have the
9 revival.
10 And then of course, if a lawyer is going to
11 serve in this role, a lawyer is going to be
12 concerned about liabilities, so you would have the
13 typical liability and indemnification provisions
14 for a trust protector that you would see for that
15 institutional trustee.
16 So that concludes my presentation. (clapping)
17 DR. ROTHBLATT: That's great, John. We've got
18 10 minutes for questions from the participants or
19 from the telephone. Any questions first from the
20 participants?
21 BRUCE KLEIN: Are you signed up?
22 JOHN DEDON, ESQUIRE: Am I signed up?
23 BRUCE KLEIN: Are you signed up for Cryogenics?
24 JOHN DEDON, ESQUIRE: Not yet.
25 Yes, sir. 75
1 PETER VOSS: Me? Some of us --
2 COURT REPORTER: State your name, please, sir.
3 PETER VOSS: Oh, I'm Peter Voss.
4 Some of us don't have that much confidence in
5 the, you know, ongoing -- or in institutions like
6 accounting firms or legal firms continuing on, or
7 their policies continuing. They may not
8 continue to support ALCOR or Cryogenics, or there may
9 be political pressure or whatever that they're
10 suddenly not -- they don't feel confident dealing
11 with that. Now one of the alternatives that has
12 been discussed in Cryogenics is like a life pact,
13 which could be formalized into an institution that
14 is set up of trust protectors, but people who are
15 themselves cryogenists, setting up some kind of trust
16 arrangement which would then be passed on the
17 future cryogenists. What do you think of that idea
18 as an alternative?
19 JOHN DEDON, ESQUIRE: Well, I'm not aware of
20 any legal reason why you couldn't do that, and I
21 think to the extent you're able to focus on the
22 trust protector role individuals or a group that is
23 particularly attuned to the needs of the folks that
24 will be at ALCOR, I think it's a wonderful idea. I
25 guess maybe the devil's in the details so that it 76
1 would then be necessary to make sure we have a
2 point person, we have a body that could act, that
3 would be relied on and the bank would be able to
4 look to. But I think to the extent we can have
5 that expertise, it would work fine.
6 PETER VOSS: Okay.
7 JOHN DEDON, ESQUIRE: Yes.
8 DR. ROTHBLATT: State your name.
9 SUSAN FONSECA-KLEIN: Oh, I'm sorry. Susan
10 Fonseca-Klein.
11 DR. ROTHBLATT: Also speak loud so you can be
12 heard on the conference phone.
13 SUSAN FONSECA-KLEIN: Okay.
14 That just in terms of my husband and I,
15 and these discussions on being in biostasis and
16 reviving, and you were talking about Mr. and
17 Mrs. Cryonic, and I was thinking also what if only
18 one can be revived? What if something happens to
19 the other? Just also I guess to think about
20 questions about in the trust, or in the --
21 the trustee to start thinking about what would the
22 other who survived want to do, or what if we can
23 revive one but need to wait on the other, do you
24 take your power of trust at that point? But more I
25 was thinking if there was some catastrophe or 77
1 disaster, some issue, and/or some accident and
2 you're both unconscious when you are put in
3 biostasis. I guess I'm thinking about, you know,
4 the -- your parents' accident, is you're -- but
5 we'd both be unconscious, let's say we both signed
6 up for Cryogenics, but something happens and I
7 can't -- you know, have the process, then to
8 already write in what you would want to happen at
9 that point. I mean I know I wouldn't want to come
10 back if Bruce is not there but I guess I was just
11 thinking aloud.
12 JOHN DEDON, ESQUIRE: Well, you could have --
13 I used Mr. and Mrs. Cryonic for simplicity. You
14 could certainly each have your own trust -- excuse
15 me, with your own assets. You could provide that
16 or you could have one trust, you could provide upon
17 the revival of either/or if both of you are
18 undergoing cryogenics. I think a lot of it comes
19 down to the resources.
20 SUSAN FONSECA-KLEIN: Right.
21 JOHN DEDON, ESQUIRE: Because if you have the
22 resources first to -- through the life insurance or
23 whatever the means are, you can then take advantage
24 of the process. The next step is, okay, well, I
25 have the resources to be able to go to ALCOR, do I 78
1 now have resources to compliment that by being able
2 to fund the trust and have additional funds there
3 to compliment what ALCOR is already doing and to be
4 able to use those resources for the types of things
5 that we've discussed here? And now I think the
6 third thing is, well, if I have the resources, do I
7 have the resources to begin to fund it now?
8 Because if I fund it now I have the advantage of
9 establishing a track record and I have a comfort
10 level now, that is set up. I get my arms around it,
11 and I feel better on how it will work when we are,
12 in fact, legally dead prior to revival.
13 SUSAN FONSECA-KLEIN: Thank you.
14 JOHN DEDON, ESQUIRE: Yes, ma'am.
15 LOISE GOLD: Louise Gold.
16 My question is: you continually hear that you
17 can't take it with you. Are legal structures now
18 in place that a trust can be established and the
19 beneficiary will be these cryogenically suspended
20 people that you don't have to have beneficiaries
21 other than that person? Or do you have to put in a
22 shell that says, okay, we have the beneficiaries or
23 these other people and these other people,
24 hopefully, in the future will care enough about the
25 frozen, suspended person to bring them back? 79
1 JOHN DEDON, ESQUIRE: I think that's a
2 wonderful question, and I don't have the bright line
3 test that says, right now legally, we know for sure
4 this can work. I do know for sure, we are setting
5 up trusts with institutional trustees with this
6 specifically in mind. That the funds and the
7 property are held for, in perpetuity, if it needs to
8 be in perpetuity until there is revival. Now has
9 that been challenged? Not to my knowledge. I was
10 involved in a situation where we worked with an
11 institutional trustee, for exactly what we are
12 proposing, to have the funds there, and upon
13 revival the trust would terminate. And the trustee
14 followed us almost until the end, and then the
15 deeper it got into their trust department they
16 said, you know, we can't do this. And because of
17 that, we then were able to know to move forward and
18 work with other institutional trustees. So, yes,
19 it's being done. Perhaps what you could do, if you
20 wanted to place your bet somewhat, because as I
21 mentioned there is such a thing as a dynasty trust
22 right now that is not subject to challenge, you
23 could, within your trust, allow for the potential of
24 distributions to lineal decedents. And if you
25 capped it so that you know the bulk of the assets 80
1 would be available for your biostasis and for your
2 revival, you've protected yourself that way. But
3 by providing for lineal decedents, perhaps you've
4 helped yourself, if there is ever a challenge.
5 Because that's consistent -- entirely consistent
6 with the dynasty trust that we see today.
7 DR. ROTHBLATT: That's terrific, John. Thank
8 you very much. Let's see if --
9 Operator, are there any questions on this talk
10 from anyone on the phones?
11 OPERATOR: To the phone audience, if you would
12 like to ask a question, please press star, 1 on
13 your phone at this time.
14 And it appears we have no questions at this
15 time.
16 DR. ROTHBLATT: Great.
17 John, you're off the hook. Thank you for a
18 terrific presentation. (clapping)