Royal Commission Into Trade Union s4

ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION

Public Hearing

(Day 10)

Level 18, 111 St Georges Terrace, Perth

On Monday, 23 June 2014 at 12.05pm

Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC

Counsel Assisting: Mr Jeremy Stoljar SC Ms Fiona Roughley

Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors

.23/06/2014 (10) 895 Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Stoljar. 2 3 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, the hearing will now continue 4 with some further evidence relating to the AWU Workplace 5 Reform Association in respect of which there have already 6 been a number of hearings in Sydney. 7 8 The first two witnesses are former employees of 9 Woodside who give evidence concerning, more particularly 10 the funds that were repaid by the AWU after they had found 11 their way into the members welfare association fund. The 12 first witness is Mr Colin Gibson. 13 14

.23/06/2014 (10) 896 C D GIBSON (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 MR STOLJAR: Q. Just some short questions, Mr Gibson. 3 4 I can indicate, Commissioner, that Dr Hanscombe has 5 indicated that Mr Gibson isn't required for 6 cross-examination, but I will just go to a couple of 7 matters in the statement. 8 9 In paragraph 9 you're describing the placement of a 10 full-time construction official in Karratha. That was an 11 LPG project? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. You refer to a Mr Colin Stewart. To your 15 recollection, did he actually attend on site and do some 16 work? 17 A. Yes, he did. He was present in Karratha for probably 18 a couple of years, and part of the deal was that he was to 19 give first priority to the LPG project, where it was 20 required. 21 22 Q. Invoices were paid to the AWU through Phillips Fox? 23 A. That's right. The AWU invoiced Phillips Fox and then 24 Phillips Fox would ask for my approval. 25 26 Q. And you were personally in charge of giving that 27 approval while you were there? 28 A. Correct. 29 30 Q. I just want to be clear on the time frame. You ceased 31 at some point and Mr Crofts took over your position? 32 A. Yes. I finished early 1995 with Woodside - January. 33 34 Q. So far as you know, but you weren't there, the 35 arrangement continued in respect of those invoices? 36 A. Yes. The project continued until the end of 1995, so 37 my assumption is that everything continued. 38 39 Q. I'm just going to ask you about something that 40 happened after you'd moved on. Is it your understanding 41 that some funds were repaid by the AWU to Woodside? 42 A. I actually don't know anything about that. 43 44 Q. You don't know anything about that? 45 A. No. 46 47 Q. That's really all I wanted to clarify: you had

.23/06/2014 (10) 897 C D GIBSON (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 nothing to do with that sequence of events? 2 A. No, that's right. 3 4 Q. In paragraphs 12 and 13 of your statement you say 5 something about the relationship between Mr Wilson and 6 Mr Blewitt. You describe an incident at that took place in 7 paragraph 13. Can you just tell us what you saw and heard 8 on that occasion? 9 A. Yes. Chris Cronin and I arrived at the AWU offices to 10 meet with Bruce Wilson and we were shown in to the office 11 that he always used and -- 12 13 Q. Who was Mr Cronin? 14 A. Mr Cronin was my boss at Woodside. I reported to him. 15 16 Q. Was anybody else there? 17 A. No, only Ralph Blewitt. There was Ralph Blewitt and 18 Bruce Wilson from the AWU, and myself and Cronin from 19 Woodside. 20 21 Q. What happened next? 22 A. We were shown into his office and Bruce Wilson asked 23 us if we would like a cup of coffee. We said, "Yeah, that 24 sounds like a pretty good idea." He then made it clear 25 that what he was talking about was a latte, flat-white type 26 coffee, not a go-and-make-your-own-instant type coffee, and 27 we said, "Yep, sounds even better." There was a little 28 cafe just around the corner from the AWU office. And so 29 Bruce told Ralph to go get the coffees. 30 31 Q. In the terms that you describe in 13? 32 A. That's correct, yes. 33 34 Q. And you have a recollection of that, do you? 35 A. Vivid. Because Cronin and I had a laugh about it 36 after we left the meeting as to the treatment of Ralph by 37 Bruce. 38 39 Q. What do you mean by that? 40 A. Well, just the obvious underling relationship between 41 the boss and the servant, sort of. That type of - that 42 type of treatment that was patently obvious to us, and we 43 just thought it was amusing. It's not something that 44 Mr Cronin would have ever said to me, for example. 45 46 MR STOLJAR: Nothing further, thank you, Commissioner. 47

.23/06/2014 (10) 898 C D GIBSON (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Dr Hanscombe? 2 3 DR HANSCOMBE: No, Mr Stoljar is quite right, we don't 4 require cross-examination of this witness. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Does anyone object to Mr Gibson being 7 excused from further attendance? 8 9 MR STOLJAR: Certainly not me, Commissioner. 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Gibson, thanks for attending 12 today. You're excused from any further attendance before 13 this Commission. In the highly unlikely event that someone 14 requires to you ask further questions, you'll be issued 15 with a fresh summons. 16 A. Thank you, Commissioner. 17 18

.23/06/2014 (10) 899 M R CROFTS (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have any objection Dr Hanscombe? 2 3 DR HANSCOMBE: No. As I said to Mr Stoljar, for the 4 previous witness and this one, the only copies we have are 5 unsigned. I assume they are the same document and, on that 6 basis, no. Mr Stoljar has kindly given me a copy of the 7 signed one. 8 9 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. They seem to be identical. The 10 statement of Mark Ronald Crofts of 23 May 2014 will be 11 received into evidence. 12 13 #STATEMENT OF MARK RONALD CROFTS DATED 23/05/2014 14 15 MR STOLJAR: Q. Mr Crofts, you were employed by Woodside 16 entities from 1992 to 2003? 17 A. Correct. 18 19 Q. I wanted to ask you about the LPG project in Karratha. 20 Did you take over Mr Gibson's role once he moved on? 21 A. Yes. Prior to that I was responsible for operations 22 and maintenance type areas of the business, Mr Gibson had 23 construction, and when he left the company, I took over the 24 lot, yes. 25 26 Q. Do you have a copy of your statement? 27 A. It's on the screen, yes. 28 29 Q. Have a look at paragraph 7. You say in the third 30 line: 31 32 Those were the costs that the AWU was 33 incurring by having an experienced major 34 construction organiser regularly visit the 35 project site ... 36 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Do you recollect who was actually coming to the site? 40 A. It was a guy called Stewart. 41 42 Q. His last name was Stewart? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Do you remember his first name? 46 A. Colin Stewart, I think. 47

.23/06/2014 (10) 900 M R CROFTS (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. So far as you were aware, work was actually being 2 carried out? 3 A. Yes. He was regularly attending the site. I would 4 get reports to that effect. And there was also some 5 oversight from their head office that that person would 6 visit the site from time to time, which was part of our 7 accountability mechanism. 8 9 Q. You cover it to some extent in paragraph 12. You say: 10 11 ... payments were made to the AWU or one of 12 its branches to cover costs actually 13 incurred by them on the project. 14 15 Do you mean by the AWU? 16 A. Yes. So that's attending the project, airfares, those 17 sorts of things. 18 19 Q. Is that why you approved the invoices? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. At some point did you or did Woodside receive a refund 23 of moneys that had been paid? 24 A. Yes. We received a letter from the AWU with - 25 refunding, I think it was, $39,000. 26 27 Q. Did you receive any communication, whether written or 28 oral, from the AWU in advance of receiving that letter? 29 A. I can't recall any, and the - most of the 30 communications about the actual transactional matters was 31 with our legal - our solicitors, Phillips Fox. 32 33 Q. Were you surprised to receive that cheque? 34 A. Yes, I was, although there was publicity at the time 35 about controversy around the AWU in the media, but I was 36 surprised to receive the refund, yes. 37 38 Q. What did you do with it? 39 A. Our view at the time was that there was no basis for 40 it to be refunded, so I wrote to the AWU outlining that 41 view and we put the money into a trust fund with the 42 solicitors pending a resolution of the matter. 43 44 Q. The letter to which you make reference is attached to 45 your statement? 46 A. Yes. 47

.23/06/2014 (10) 901 M R CROFTS (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. I can give you a copy, but is that the letter that is 2 annexure A to your statement? I'll show it to you. 3 A. Yes, that's correct. 4 5 Q. That's a letter that you sent off on or about 6 19 September 1995? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. You say in the third paragraph on the first page: 10 11 Woodside considers that the $39,000 has 12 been properly incurred and accounted for in 13 accordance with the various letters 14 documenting the agreement between Woodside 15 and the AWU. 16 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. That correctly reflected the position, so far as you 20 were concerned, as at 19 September 1995? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 MR STOLJAR: I have nothing further, thank you, 24 Commissioner. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: Anything, Dr Hanscombe? 27 28 DR HANSCOMBE: Nothing, thank you Commissioner. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Crofts, thank you very much for 31 coming along and giving your evidence today. 32 33 Is there any objection to Mr Crofts being excused from 34 further attendance? 35 36 MR STOLJAR: Not on my part, Commissioner. 37 38 DR HANSCOMBE: No. 39 40 THE COMMISSIONER: You can be excused from further 41 attendance. It is possible, but not much more than 42 possible, that someone may want to ask you further 43 questions. If so, a further notice will be issued to you. 44 Thank you for coming today. 45 46

.23/06/2014 (10) 902 M R CROFTS (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 MR STOLJAR: The next witness, Commissioner, is also one 2 in respect of whom there is no cross-examination sought. 3 That is Mr Steven Schalit. 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: That is the correct pronunciation, is 6 it? 7 8 MR STOLJAR: I understand that to be the case. 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Does Dr Hanscombe have a document which 11 corresponds to what will become his evidence? 12 13 MR STOLJAR: Yes. 14 15 DR HANSCOMBE: Thanks very much. 16 17

.23/06/2014 (10) 903 S SCHALIT (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Schalit's statement of 24 May 2014 3 is received into evidence. 4 5 #STATEMENT OF STEVEN SCHALIT DATED 24/05/2014 6 7 MR STOLJAR: I'll provide you with a copy as well in case 8 you need it, Mr Schalit. 9 10 Q. Just a couple of points, Mr Schalit. You took over 11 from Brian Pulham on the Dawesville project? 12 A. That's correct. 13 14 Q. He was promoted, was he? 15 A. He was moved to a different site and promoted as well. 16 17 Q. You remained at Dawesville? 18 A. Correct. 19 20 Q. If you have a look at paragraph 11 of your statement, 21 you say that you recall that some training took place? 22 A. That is correct. 23 24 Q. And you say that you assumed that the - I'll call it 25 the "Workplace Reform Association" - payments were somehow 26 connected with that, and then in paragraph 13 you say that 27 you assumed that the Workplace Reform Association was, as 28 you put it, an approved part of the AWU? 29 A. That's correct. 30 31 Q. You approved a number of invoices yourself? 32 A. I did. 33 34 Q. After Mr Pulham had moved on? 35 A. That's correct. 36 37 Q. Just so I understand this, you assumed that the 38 invoices that you were approving related, as you say in 39 paragraph 11, somehow to the training that you'd observed? 40 A. That is correct. 41 42 Q. But you didn't take steps yourself to independently 43 verify or audit what was going on to check it against the 44 invoices? 45 A. No, I didn't. 46 47 Q. You, in effect, just kept the arrangement going that

.23/06/2014 (10) 904 S SCHALIT (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Mr Pulham had described to you when you started? 2 A. That's correct. 3 4 Q. Indeed, in paragraph 10 you say that during the 5 handover, towards the end, Mr Pulham explained that an 6 agreement had been reached. You yourself weren't involved 7 in the negotiations that went into that agreement, I take 8 it? 9 A. No, I wasn't. 10 11 Q. You simply then continued to approve invoices as they 12 arrived? 13 A. That's correct. 14 15 Q. Without actually auditing or checking whether the 16 training that had gone on correlated to it? 17 A. That's correct. 18 19 MR STOLJAR: Nothing further. Thank you, Mr Schalit. 20 21 THE COMMISSIONER: Dr Hanscombe? 22 23 DR HANSCOMBE: No Commissioner. 24 25 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Schalit, thank you very much for 26 coming to give your evidence today. 27 28 Is there any objection to Mr Schalit being excused 29 from further attendance? 30 31 MR STOLJAR: Not on my part, Commissioner. 32 33 THE COMMISSIONER: You're excused from further attendance. 34 It is possible, Mr Schalit, that someone may want you to 35 come back later. I think it is rather unlikely, but it is 36 possible. In that event, you will be issued with a further 37 notice for attendance. Thank you very much. 38 39 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 40 41

.23/06/2014 (10) 905 S SCHALIT (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1

.23/06/2014 (10) 906 C A CAMPBELL (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Bruce's. 2 3 What was the relationship like, to your observation? 4 A. They were close. They were friendly outside work. 5 They were friends, yes. 6 7 Q. And then in paragraph 15 you say: 8 9 Throughout the period that I was employed 10 by the AWU ... I paid Bruce $300 per week 11 in rent. 12 13 How did you do that? That's in paragraph 15? 14 A. I had a bank book. I used to go to the bank every 15 Friday. I'd take out enough for the rent and expenses on 16 the weekend and I'd then deposit the $300 straight into 17 Bruce's bank account. 18 19 Q. Ms Campbell, you've set out your evidence or your 20 recollections as best you can recall in your statement, and 21 you've told us that the statement is true and correct, so 22 the other matters that you wish to say are contained in 23 your statement, I take it? 24 A. That's right, yes. 25 26 Q. I won't ask you any more questions because 27 Dr Hanscombe is going to ask you a few questions? 28 A. Okay. 29 30

.23/06/2014 (10) 907 C A CAMPBELL (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. No. 2 3 Q. You have to speak for the transcript? 4 A. Oh, sorry, no. 5 6 Q. No? 7 A. No. 8 9 Q. Can you tell the Commissioner a bit more about what 10 you observed of the interactions between Mr Blewitt and 11 Mr Wilson? 12 A. They were close. They socialised outside of work. 13 They were close before I met them. They were friends, 14 and - I don't know what else you need off me. 15 16 Q. Mr Blewitt has said that he felt in fear of his job 17 and intimidated by Mr Wilson. Did you observe anything 18 consistent with that? 19 A. No. 20 21 Q. No? 22 A. No. If anyone was threatening people with their jobs 23 it would have been Ralph. 24 25 Q. How would you describe his personality? 26 A. Oh, a bit manic. He could be a bit of a bully, but 27 not to Bruce; to other staff he could be a bit of a bully. 28 A bit mad. 29 30 Q. A bit mad? 31 A. Yeah. 32 33 Q. You didn't find it easy working with him when Bruce 34 had moved to Victoria? 35 A. Not really, no. No. 36 37 Q. I think you've said - at paragraph 21 you actually 38 say: 39 40 ... Ralph had created havoc in the branch 41 by upsetting people, making silly decisions 42 and disrupting employees. 43 44 I know it is 20-something years ago and it is a hard ask, 45 but if you could give the Commissioner some instances of 46 what you have in mind there, that might assist him? 47 A. Gee. The only one that I can really remember, like,

.23/06/2014 (10) 908 C A CAMPBELL (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 clear, is that there was some, I don't know if I'm allowed 2 to say this, sexual harassment against Ralph within the 3 union, and Bruce came back and he sorted it out. I think 4 we all got put through a sexual harassment course from the 5 TLC. The lady from the TLC came over and put us through 6 the course. That's one that really stands in my mind, but 7 there was other running - day-to-day running of the union 8 decisions that I really can't remember now, but I can 9 remember him coming back and sorting them out, you know, 10 "Why did you do that for?" 11 12 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. What does "TLC" stand for? 13 A. Trades & Labour Council. 14 15 DR HANSCOMBE: Q. That's the WA state union head body; 16 is that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. And the AWU Western Australian branch would have been 20 affiliated with the TLC? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. It was a person from there who came out and did the 24 sexual harassment training? 25 A. Yes, we were all in the boardroom. I can't remember 26 her name. She came out and ran us through - I think it 27 took an afternoon. 28 29 Q. And that settled that problem down? 30 A. Mmm. 31 32 Q. You never saw any evidence at all that Mr Blewitt was 33 in fear of his job at the hands of Mr Wilson? 34 A. No, no, none whatsoever. 35 36 Q. Do you remember an incident - I know it's hard after, 37 what, 22 years - when you came in to work and you found a 38 letter that had been drafted on your computer purportedly 39 coming from Mr Wilson about Mr Blewitt's claim for a 40 permanent disability pension. Do you recall that? 41 A. Gee, vaguely. I can remember Ralph going for what he 42 called the TPI, I think that's right. 43 44 Q. Yes. 45 A. And how I knew about it was he come into work one day 46 and he was unshaven, and I said, "You're looking a bit 47 rough." And he said, "I'm going - I've got an appointment

.23/06/2014 (10) 909 C A CAMPBELL (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 for my TPI. If I look unshaven, I have a drink of whisky 2 before I go in there and that makes me seem like an 3 alcoholic and can't take care of myself and I'll get the 4 full TPI." And Ralph told me that, yeah. 5 6 Q. You don't recall this incident about a letter? 7 A. I vaguely remember it, but it's only a very vague 8 recollection -- 9 10 Q. Yes, it's a long time ago. 11 A. -- of something happening, yes. 12 13 Q. You say that you kept Bruce Wilson's signature stamp 14 secure. Why was that? 15 A. I had to talk Bruce into getting a signature stamp, 16 because he'd go away for a couple of days or a week and 17 he'd come back and there would be all these piles of 18 letters and he would have to hand sign them, and in 19 politics we had a signature stamp for all the general 20 correspondence. But he didn't want a signature stamp and 21 I had to do a lot of fast talking and promise that I would 22 sleep with it, basically, and there was one signature stamp 23 made and I had that and that was in my handbag. I carried 24 it with me everywhere. I think it was because of the 25 politics within the union, because at that stage I think 26 some of the old guard were still there and if anyone had 27 have got hold of his signature stamp, they could have 28 written letters or put material out with his name on it. 29 30 Q. When you say "because of the politics", not the union 31 politics, you said "because of the politics we'd had 32 signature stamps", you're talking about when you worked for 33 a member of parliament before you were at the union? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. But the other politics you're talking about is the 37 internal politics in the union? 38 A. The internal politics, yes. 39 40 Q. Is it fair to say, then, that you thought it was 41 pretty important to keep that signature stamp secure? 42 A. Yes. No-one had it. If they wanted something signed, 43 they brought it and I stamped it. 44 45 Q. You stamped it? 46 A. Yes. 47

.23/06/2014 (10) 910 C A CAMPBELL (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. What kind of documents did you use it for? 2 A. Membership letters, applications to the Commission, 3 just general correspondence. 4 5 Q. Financial documents? 6 A. No. 7 8 Q. No? 9 A. No. 10 11 Q. You never used it for that? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. Did you ever see Mr Wilson use it for financial 15 documents? 16 A. No. He wasn't very good at stamping the stamp. 17 18 Q. What did he do? 19 A. He used to smudge it all the time. You had to have an 20 art to stamp the stamp and he didn't have it because he was 21 a left-hander. 22 23 Q. How would he affix his signature to a document? 24 A. He normally hand signed it. 25 26 Q. Were you aware that Mr Blewitt was using that stamp? 27 A. No. I don't - no. 28 29 Q. Are you aware of that now as you sit there, that in 30 the past he did? 31 A. Only now that it's come to light that he had a stamp 32 of Bruce's, but I don't know where he got it from and 33 I don't know what he was using it for. 34 35 Q. And you didn't know at the time that he was using it 36 in particular to sign cheques? 37 A. No. I don't know how he got it unless he had - 38 I don't know unless he had one himself, one made up. 39 40 Q. But you didn't give it to him? 41 A. No. No. It was in my bag. It went with me 42 everywhere. 43 44 Q. Your bag went with you everywhere? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 DR HANSCOMBE: Nothing else, Commissioner.

.23/06/2014 (10) 911 C A CAMPBELL (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Dr Hanscombe. Any other 3 questions Mr Stoljar? 4 5 MR STOLJAR: No, Commissioner. 6 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Campbell, thank you for coming 8 along. 9 10 Is there any opposition to Ms Campbell being excused 11 from further attendance? 12 13 DR HANSCOMBE: No Commissioner. 14 15 MR STOLJAR: No, Commissioner. 16 17 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. You are excused from attendance. 18 It is, frankly, possible that you may have to come back, 19 but it is unlikely. If it is necessary for you to come 20 back, a further notice will be issued to you. But thank 21 you for coming today. 22 A. Thank you. 23 24

.23/06/2014 (10) 912 T A LOVETT (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. That's right. 2 3 Q. You are a pensioner? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. You are a resident of Western Australia? 7 A. I am. 8 9 Q. You have prepared a witness statement in these 10 proceedings, being a statement of 26 May 2014? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. The content of that statement is true and correct? 14 A. It is. 15 16 MR STOLJAR: I will provide you with a copy. 17 Commissioner, I will provide the Commission with the 18 original statement of Mr Lovett and ask that it be admitted 19 into evidence. 20 21 DR HANSCOMBE: No objection, Commissioner. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Lovett's statement will be admitted 24 into evidence. 25 26 #STATEMENT OF TONY ALEXANDER LOVETT DATED 26/5/2014 27 28 MR STOLJAR: Q. Mr Lovett, you were previously an 29 organiser employed by the AWU? 30 A. I was. 31 32 Q. Were you in that position between January 1992 33 and October 1993? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Who did you report to? 37 A. Colin Saunders. 38 39 Q. He was also an organiser? 40 A. He was. 41 42 Q. Did your duties include servicing members who were 43 working on the Dawesville Channel project? 44 A. It did. 45 46 Q. How often did you go to Dawesville? 47 A. Once a week at least, sometimes two, sometimes three.

.23/06/2014 (10) 913 T A LOVETT (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 2 Q. That was for the whole period between January 1992 3 through to October 1993? 4 A. That's right. 5 6 Q. Were you aware of any other organisers who attended 7 the project? 8 A. No. No. 9 10 Q. Did you ever know a gentleman by the name of 11 Glen Ivory? 12 A. I did. Glen was the then president of the union. 13 14 Q. Did you ever see him at Dawesville? 15 A. I did not. 16 17 Q. Were you aware of him doing any work at Dawesville? 18 A. No. 19 20 Q. Were you aware of, at the time, the existence of an 21 entity called the Australian Workers Union Workplace Reform 22 Association? 23 A. No, I was not. 24 25 Q. Never heard of it? 26 A. Never heard of it. 27 28 MR STOLJAR: Yes, I have nothing further, Commissioner. 29 30 DR HANSCOMBE: Commissioner, we had said that we didn't 31 seek to cross-examine Mr Lovett, but Mr Stoljar has covered 32 a topic that is not in the statement. 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: You have leave to cross-examine. 35 36

.23/06/2014 (10) 914 T A LOVETT (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 dealt with from there, yes. 2 3 Q. Because the work of the organiser is to service the 4 members, as you said, so you go out, you see the members, 5 "Got any problems fellas? What do I need to deal with?"; 6 that's right? 7 A. That's right. 8 9 Q. So you were a kind of liaison person between the 10 members and the union? 11 A. An organiser's role is to liaise with both members, 12 employer and union. If there were any issues bigger than - 13 what I couldn't deal with on the job, I would then go to 14 the head office, yes. 15 16 Q. So sometimes you might have been there as short as 17 a smoko - 20 minutes in that week? 18 A. No. No. No, I would be there for at least a smoko 19 and then - on most occasions I would go and look at the 20 bridge. They were doing what was called an incremental 21 bridge there, so I would go and see the grano workers and 22 all that, who were our main membership, apart from the 23 operators, who were down on the bottom of the job, but you 24 couldn't really get down there because there was machines 25 working all the time. 26 27 Q. The Commission has heard some evidence that when there 28 was a training facility set up, it was set up down at the 29 other side of the bridge where the earthworks were being 30 done. You wouldn't necessarily have been down there, would 31 you? 32 A. No. 33 34 Q. If Mr Ivory had been there training, because you 35 wouldn't have been there, you wouldn't have seen him 36 necessarily? 37 A. I would have known, because the boys would have told 38 me. 39 40 Q. You're assuming that? 41 A. Yes. I'm good at my job. 42 43 Q. You are good at your job? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. So that's the basis of you saying you would have 47 known?

.23/06/2014 (10) 915 T A LOVETT (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. Mmm. 2 3 Q. But you didn't physically walk around and inspect 4 every piece of the site every day, did you? 5 A. Nobody was allowed to walk around every piece of the 6 site down there every day. It was locked off. 7 8 Q. And you would agree, wouldn't you, that training is 9 a specialised job. You need to be trained to be a trainer? 10 That's a specialised -- 11 A. Absolutely. 12 13 Q. Indeed, you get certification to be an accredited 14 trainer, and so on? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. And that role is not the same as the role of the 18 organiser, which is the "servicing the members" role? 19 A. No. 20 21 DR HANSCOMBE: Nothing else, Commissioner. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Anything in re-examination? 24 25 MR STOLJAR: No, Commissioner. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Lovett, a considerable amount of 28 gratitude is owed to you for coming along today. 29 30 Is there any objection to Mr Lovett being excused? 31 32 MR STOLJAR: Not on my part, Commissioner. 33 34 DR HANSCOMBE: No, Commissioner. 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: You are excused from further 37 attendance. It is just possible that someone may want you 38 to come back to answer some questions, but it is probably 39 pretty unlikely, so you can leave the box, thanks, 40 Mr Lovett. 41 42 Who do we have next? 43 44 MR STOLJAR: Commissioner, the next witness is 45 Colin Geoffrey Saunders. 46 47

.23/06/2014 (10) 916 T A LOVETT (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1

.23/06/2014 (10) 917 C G SAUNDERS (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 to a project known as the Dawesville Channel project? 2 A. That's correct. 3 4 Q. Did Mr Lovett report to you? 5 A. No, he didn't. 6 7 Q. But he was another organiser? 8 A. He was the - Bruce Wilson was the secretary; 9 Ralph Blewitt was the assistant secretary when I was 10 employed by the AWU. 11 12 Q. And how many organisers were there? 13 A. There was a number of them. There was organisers plus 14 industrial officers. 15 16 Q. You say in your statement that you wouldn't travel to 17 Dawesville each day but you would go there at least once 18 a week, and definitely once a fortnight? 19 A. That's correct. 20 21 Q. Then, when you went to Dawesville, you would attend 22 the site office? 23 A. Yes, I would. 24 25 Q. And you say that you would spend about four to six 26 hours - that was per visit, was it? 27 A. That's per visit. 28 29 Q. Did you know a fellow by the name of Glen Ivory? 30 A. Yes, he was the president of the WA branch of the AWU. 31 32 Q. Was he ever at the Dawesville project that you saw? 33 A. I never saw him there. It wasn't his responsibility, 34 as far as I knew. 35 36 Q. You say in paragraph 11 that most of the employees 37 employed by Thiess were members of the AWU, and part of 38 your role - I am reading out to you part of paragraph 11: 39 40 ... part of my role in travelling to 41 Dawesville was to ensure that all workers 42 were trained up ... 43 44 And then in paragraph 12 you talk about training related to 45 the channel project only. Who was doing that training? 46 A. Thiess. 47

.23/06/2014 (10) 918 C G SAUNDERS (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 Q. You then say: 2 3 In 1994 I was appointed to the ... (BCITC). 4 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. And some money was used - the BCITC provided some 8 funds. How did you become aware of that matter? 9 A. Well, what happened then, the contractors or employer 10 groups would make a submission to the ITC, which would then 11 forward that submission, if they thought it was worthy 12 enough, up to the Building and Construction Industry 13 Training fund. 14 15 Q. You say that you'd never heard of the AWU Workplace 16 Reform Association. I take it you mean you never heard of 17 them back in the early 1990s? 18 A. No. No, I - no idea. It was fairly recently, to be 19 honest with you, once this started to come out. 20 21 Q. Fairly recently you heard about -- 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. But at the time you never heard reference to that? 25 A. Never heard it, no. 26 27 Q. In paragraph 21 - you have covered that really in the 28 first sentence, but you say: 29 30 I was never aware ... Thiess were paying 31 that body money for the provision of 32 workplace reform. 33 34 By "that body" you mean the Workplace Reform Association? 35 A. That's correct. 36 37 Q. Is that something you only became aware of -- 38 A. In recent days - recent weeks, months, yes. 39 40 MR STOLJAR: Nothing further, thank you, Commissioner. 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Any cross-examination, Dr Hanscombe? 43 44 DR HANSCOMBE: Yes, if the Commission please. 45 46 47

.23/06/2014 (10) 919 C G SAUNDERS (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1

.23/06/2014 (10) 920 C G SAUNDERS (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 trainers down there to train their people, yes. 2 3 Q. But that doesn't say, does it, that there wasn't other 4 training going on; it just says they were providing some 5 training? 6 A. Yes. It was - training was going on because there was 7 an incentive for the workforce, if they got multiskilled, 8 to get higher wages. 9 10 Q. Yes, and there was an incentive for Thiess to skill up 11 its workforce, because then it is more flexible and they 12 can move the workforce around? 13 A. Correct. 14 15 Q. So it is actually in everybody's interest to have a 16 more skilled workforce? 17 A. Yes, yes. No argument. 18 19 Q. And if training were being provided by the AWU for 20 Thiess, and Thiess were paying for it, that wouldn't be 21 surprising in that instance, would it, because it was in 22 Thiess's interest? 23 A. In Thiess and the workers' interests, yes. 24 25 Q. And the workers' interests? 26 A. Mmm. 27 28 Q. I think you said you personally are not a trained 29 trainer? 30 A. No, I'm not. 31 32 DR HANSCOMBE: Nothing else, Commissioner. 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: Anything further, Mr Stoljar? 35 36 MR STOLJAR: No, Commissioner. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: Any objection to Mr Saunders being 39 excused? 40 41 DR HANSCOMBE: No, Commissioner. 42 43 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Saunders, you are excused from 44 further attendance to give evidence. It is possible 45 someone may want you to come back later, but pretty 46 unlikely. If that comes to pass, then a further notice 47 will be served on you. Thank you for coming today.

.23/06/2014 (10) 921 C G SAUNDERS (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1

.23/06/2014 (10) 922 B D PULHAM (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you. 2 3 Q. Mr Pulham, can I just clear up two small things? You 4 have a copy in front of you, do you? 5 A. Yes, I do, Commissioner. 6 7 Q. On the second page there is just an error in the 8 heading down the bottom there. That is "AWU", I take it? 9 Do you see the fourth-last line? 10 A. Yes, I think that was meant to read "AWU". 11 12 Q. And the other thing is this, do you see in 13 paragraph 15 it says: 14 15 In approximately [1994] ... 16 17 I think the last invoice on which there is an indication of 18 your approval for payment was 7 September 1993, so should 19 we understand paragraph 15 to mean in approximately late 20 1993, or something like that? 21 A. I think that is correct. I think, in fact, I was 22 promoted about October 1993. 23 24 Q. Very well. You are content for October 1993 to be 25 used as the relevant date? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Your statement will be 29 received into evidence. 30 31 #STATEMENT OF BRIAN DOUGLAS PULHAM DATED 26/5/2014 32 33 MR STOLJAR: Q. Mr Pulham, you are still employed by 34 Thiess? 35 A. Yes, I am. 36 37 Q. In 1992 you were appointed by Thiess to be the project 38 manager of the Dawesville Channel project? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. In paragraph 6 you say that you understood that 42 Mr Jukes had some discussions with the AWU about workplace 43 reform. You weren't part of those discussions yourself? 44 A. No, I wasn't. 45 46 Q. In paragraph 11 of your statement you talk about the 47 process by which you approved invoices which were sent from

.23/06/2014 (10) 923 B D PULHAM (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 time to time by the Workplace Reform Association. How did 2 you actually check what was set out in the invoice? What 3 would you do? 4 A. Well, I would check that the hours being claimed were 5 in line with the agreement in the letter from Mr Jukes and 6 if that was the case, then I approved the invoice. 7 8 Q. To your understanding, was training or related work 9 actually being done by the Workplace Reform Association at 10 the time? 11 A. They weren't directly carrying out training, the 12 training was done by Thiess, but there was a representative 13 that liaised with myself and also the workforce in relation 14 to training matters. 15 16 Q. Who did you understand to be the representative of the 17 association? 18 A. Initially Colin Saunders and then, later on, 19 Tony Lovett. 20 21 Q. They were the only persons, to your understanding, who 22 were associated with the Workplace Reform Association? 23 A. Yes. I don't recall liaising with anyone else other 24 than those two gentlemen. 25 26 Q. Would you have approved the invoices if you had known 27 that the Workplace Reform Association had not provided 28 a representative to do the work set out in the invoices? 29 A. No, I wouldn't. 30 31 Q. Did you ever know or come across a gentleman called 32 Glen Ivory? 33 A. I don't recall a Glen Ivory, no. 34 35 MR STOLJAR: Yes, I have nothing further, thank you, 36 Commissioner. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Dr Hanscombe? 39 40 Dr Hanscombe represents Mr Bruce Wilson. 41 42 THE WITNESS: Mmm-hmm. 43 44

.23/06/2014 (10) 924 B D PULHAM (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1 A. That's correct. 2 3 Q. In fact, training did go on in 1993 and 1994, 4 didn't it? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. I shouldn't ask you about 1994, because you weren't 8 there, but as far as you know from Mr Schalit, it did go 9 on? 10 A. I understand it did, yes. 11 12 Q. And if Glen Ivory was at that site after you had been 13 promoted and left, you wouldn't necessarily know about 14 that, would you? 15 A. Not necessarily, no. 16 17 Q. Indeed, there was no particular reason why you would 18 know who the trainer was. What you needed to know was that 19 the training was being done; do you agree with that? 20 A. Are you talking about after October 1993 or the whole 21 period? 22 23 Q. Well, let's take it in two bits. Before October 1993? 24 A. Before October 1993 it would be normal for the 25 representative to come and see me when he visited the site, 26 so I would expect to have known if Glen Ivory was on the 27 site in that capacity prior to October 1993. 28 29 Q. I follow that, that it would have been normal, but it 30 doesn't mean it didn't happen, does it. You can't say you 31 walked around the site all the time every day and he 32 definitely wasn't there? 33 A. I didn't do that, no. 34 35 Q. And a fortiori, that must be so after you have left in 36 1994 - you wouldn't know? 37 A. After October 1993 I wouldn't have known. 38 39 DR HANSCOMBE: Yes, nothing else, Commissioner. 40 41 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Anything further, 42 Mr Stoljar? 43 44 MR STOLJAR: Just one question. 45 46 47

.23/06/2014 (10) 925 B D PULHAM (Dr Hanscombe) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation 1

.23/06/2014 (10) 926 B D PULHAM (Mr Stoljar) Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation