Alert: This is a formal class on principals underlying the Torah as found in the classic text, Derech Hashem. Questions should be related to the text - limit to 30 seconds each Class is each Wednesday nights at 9pm eastern. lnfo found at www.yashanet.com/derech Alert: Redottext is currently on. Isibel: Shalom Yehoshua YehoshuaBA: shalom Isibel: Welcome Adam YehoshuaBA: started recording A D A M_3: shalom and thank you olivesnr: hi room rachelkeane: shalom olive eliana batyah: shalom olive awlthroear: hy luminous_spirit: shalom everyone.. NICE music eliana batyah: shalom luminous olivesnr: i cant hear any thing luminous_spirit: eliana luminous_spirit: i heard crickets or birdies lol olivesnr: hi isible Isibel: yes luminous_spirit: 1 YehoshuaBA: 1 Wesleyismyname: 1 eliana batyah: 1 mpwilliams_2: 1 olivesnr: do i have to rebot A D A M_3: crickets? thats behanus olde knees luminous_spirit: lol Adam Sabbathkeeper: shalom Sue olivesnr: oh i couldnt hear olivesnr: oh dear i missed any thing? KosherSue: Shalom Sabbathkeeper and all A D A M_3: nope A D A M_3: just stating eliana batyah: no olive just started' A D A M_3: starting Wesleyismyname: lol Taz_Aharon: lolol A D A M_3: shes saying all we do has an effect on the world abbyzxzx: TALLIEN WANTS AN INVITE BEHANU: invite him! luminous_spirit: lol A D A M_3: mmmmm olivesnr: abby i invited u talien_2: ILL BE BACK IN A BIT.. olivesnr: talien is invited olivesnr: hi telien talien_2: ILL BE BACK IN A LITTLE WHILE OLIVE abbyzxzx: OK olivesnr: ok abbyzxzx: U HERE talien_2: IM BUSY. EHEHE BEHANU: Shalom! Welcome to our Derech Hashem class on the fundamental principles that underlie the Torah. All info may be found at www.yashanet.com/derech. Please limit text to questions on the topic. We will have mic time for questions at several intervals. abbyzxzx: OH OLIVE HEHE BEHANU: Aryeh Kaplan BEHANU: Book is "Inner Space" YehoshuaBA: shalom Bruce SHeMABruce: hi Wesleyismyname: hey bruce eliana batyah: shalom bruce luminous_spirit: hi Bruce BEHANU: yes she is luminous_spirit: lol @ Behanu olivesnr: hi troy olivesnr: hi lifsharer olivesnr: when can we ask quastions behanu? BEHANU: our instructor is rebooting SHeMABruce: no sound olivesnr: ok BEHANU: 1 Taz_Aharon: 1 Taz_Aharon: we are the players

Jean Elizabeth: hello olive thanks Jean Elizabeth: g'day y'all luminous_spirit: g'day Jean olivesnr: np jaen troy_gs: WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ABOUT? SHeMABruce: even if he grand master didn't know exactly what move you would make, he would still know every move you can make and be prepared. BEHANU: troy ... Jean Elizabeth: g'day lumininous BEHANU: check the web site troy TwinkleInHisEye: troy watch your mouth olivesnr: jean i was looking for u in the room i didnt see u so i invited u SHeMABruce: right Isibel: 1 Wesleyismyname: 1 luminous_spirit: 1 Jean Elizabeth: thanks olive i appreciate that troy_gs: IT'S ALL GREEK TO ME YehoshuaBA: This is a formal class on principals underlying the Torah as found in the classic text, Derech Hashem. Questions should be related to the text - limit to 30 seconds each Class is each Wednesday nights at 9pm eastern. lnfo found at www.yashanet.com/derech Isibel: yes Isibel: you are TwinkleInHisEye: troy well we are several classes into it troy_gs: I HAVE NO IDEA SHeMABruce: 2 YehoshuaBA: 2 Alert: troy_gs reddotted by: BEHANU olivesnr: 2 eliana batyah: 2 TwinkleInHisEye: troy it is very profound olivesnr: hey troy luminous_spirit: oh my goodness.. isibel came in so loud after olive lol.. ouch SHeMABruce: got to have the book, troy. Alert: troy_gs unreddotted by: BEHANU luminous_spirit: s'ok troy_gs: which book? YehoshuaBA: Derech Hashem BEHANU: troy - go to the web link we posted SHeMABruce: man was created equal YehoshuaBA: www.yashanet.com/derech BEHANU: www.yashanet.com/derech. TwinkleInHisEye: inclination toward good and evil Taz_Aharon: adam was created with a powerfull neshamah Taz_Aharon: directly connected troy_gs: the link didn't work Taz_Aharon: until the fall luminous_spirit: it works for me troy eliana batyah: it didnt work for me either troy_gs: the page cannot be found luminous_spirit: the one at the top of the room works for me SHeMABruce: erase the period in the link eliana batyah: thats what i got too troy YehoshuaBA: refresh troy, it's there YehoshuaBA: www.yashanet.com/derech BEHANU: Now reading from Derech Hashem YehoshuaBA: Behanu posted a link with a period after it YehoshuaBA: that one won't work troy_gs: who wrote this book? YehoshuaBA: Moshe Chaim Luzzatto troy_gs: what is the proper way? Alert: troy_gs reddotted by: BEHANU Taz_Aharon: observing the commandments olivesnr: true luminous_spirit: that's the truth luminous_spirit: hey Strider Strider_100: shalom guys YehoshuaBA: shalom strider Wesleyismyname: shalom strider eliana batyah: shalom strider olivesnr: hi stider Strider_100: what page are we on ? Strider_100: had guests BCWoman61: Good evening everyone. Sorry to be late. Not feeling so well again. luminous_spirit: sorry to hear that BC.. hope you feel better soon BCWoman61: thank you luminous. I hope so do

BCWoman61: nice new welcome message Behanu BEHANU: ty bc BEHANU: strider - 95f BEHANU: i think YehoshuaBA: 97 A D A M_3: 95f? YehoshuaBA: page 97 A D A M_3: k BEHANU: f=forward Strider_100: got it SHeMABruce: "similarity" as in "christlike" <=== as mentioned sometimes in NT

A D A M_3: wish she had a reading voice different from her talking voice A D A M_3: hard to know...... the difference YehoshuaBA: deep male voice A D A M_3: yeah that wouldhelp luminous_spirit: lol Yehoshua, that's what i was thinkin BCWoman61: but were not Adom & Chaveh totally perfected to begin with, whereas we will arrive in the olam haba at different levels? Jean Elizabeth: womens voices tend to be higher A D A M_3: they were sinless but yet not perfect SHeMABruce: current "creation" is distorted. Perfect balance then. Off balance now. BCWoman61: but we will not all enter the olam haba at the same level as Adom and Chaveh had originally BEHANU: some will be kings, other royal janitors

BCWoman61: thank behanu, that's clear A D A M_3: i;ll be the wine taster Jean Elizabeth: they were eating from the treeof life there by immortal Alert: troy_gs unreddotted by: BEHANU A D A M_3: reading now luminous_spirit: see Adam, you've got it lol

A D A M_3: have to pay attention BCWoman61: if this is covered later, it's ok to say so, but if the wicked deeds of others curtail our own efforts, is it a gilgul that will allow us to overcome that shortening of our time? For example of one were murdered, would that neshama be allowed to further it's efforts in another cycle? SHeMABruce: kinda like Newton's law of action/reaction. A mass at rest will remain at rest until force is applied. Once applied, force is required to return to balance. original sin was a force that destroyed the balance.

BEHANU: BC ... down the road BCWoman61: k Behanu I figured that might be the answer BEHANU: That will be Judaism 102 A D A M_3: hey you guys...don't let me get behind BEHANU: olive has a q Isibel: go ahead olive

Isibel: BCWoman61: Behanu, I was discussing it with an israeli and he told me his washer has gilguliim so I was having a bit of a hard time Isibel: lol bc troy_gs: Jean Elizabeth: hashems plan was all the earth eventually would be like the garden of eden,a paradise Isibel: tikkun=repair SHeMABruce: correct SHeMABruce: correction BEHANU: good Q troy_gs: well, the muslims say that the womans mind is deficient when soul leaves earth: Allah is the ultimate in patience. He is all patient to the limit.He never hastens and never hurries.He is the Steadfast.He is the Persevering.The One of perfect timing SHeMABruce: muslim minds are deficient BEHANU: that's why they still live in the stone age luminous_spirit: Bruce sherryr: That tells you a lot about muslims troy troy_gs: how did you learn this stuff? i never heard this YehoshuaBA: years of study troy SHeMABruce: "study", troy SHeMABruce: "reading" YehoshuaBA: Orthodox Judaism studies BCWoman61: years of study, reading the rabbis like aryeh kaplan and so on A D A M_3: using the mind ,,,,,, study . Jean Elizabeth: adam had no reason not to believe his father SHeMABruce: ONLY mankind is "in the likeness of" God. Nothing else in creation is A D A M_3: think its not belief...... it might be the choice to stay with his wife RevYeseniaRivera: [Text censored by Admin YehoshuaBA] BEHANU: <- full time job banning people SHeMABruce: this room keeps giving new members to my own ban list... luminous_spirit: man we need a can of looney lysol to spray the room with BEHANU: what section we up to isibel? troy_gs: how do you know that your conclusions are correct? BEHANU: troy ... this is a class BEHANU: based on teachings passed down from moses to today BEHANU: you decide for yourself YehoshuaBA: section 4, paragraph 2 BEHANU: 2.4.2 BCWoman61: Troy this is an ongoing class based on the book Derech Hashem by Moshe Chaim Luzatto. If you like I can give you a tiny url so you can see the book partly online. BEHANU: BC please pm that to him SHeMABruce: that's the one major point I differ with, isibel troy_gs: i got the link already troy_gs: i have the page open BEHANU: differnet one troy A D A M_3: dont need to make a choice to accept...... just to ponder Jean Elizabeth: no such thing as purgatory BCWoman61: you have the link for the studies not the google books scan of the actual book Troy. troy_gs: oh ok BEHANU: Jean ... this is a clas BEHANU: class BEHANU: as mentioned BEHANU: According to traditional torah teaching, there is such a 'place'. Jean Elizabeth: yes behanu i know,was just a comment BEHANU: You can believe as you want. troy_gs: well, the world is becoming more sinful SHeMABruce: there IS a period of punishment. Purgatory, hell, iran, white house ... call it what you wish BCWoman61: so is it taught that those who do horrendous evil, are in need of mental health treatment? TwinkleInHisEye: yes, it's very attractive TwinkleInHisEye: sin is extremely attractive BEHANU: lust TwinkleInHisEye: he made a choice BEHANU: acted on his yetzer hara salvatore 49: well sin is 'extremely attractive' if your used to praticing it....its less and less attractive the more you live God's way troy_gs: i bought some incense that was made in jerusalem. smells good YehoshuaBA: Yetzer hara = evil urge BCWoman61: sin is attractive because it is it's own reward. People won't immediate reward SHeMABruce: Adam listened to Eve. Original sin - original nagging A D A M_3: not thinking luminous_spirit: BCWoman61: want not won't, please excuse my typo salvatore 49: and today....that is what many people use to justify their actions "well even the ANIMALS do it"... A D A M_3: want* salvatore 49: animals are not monogamous....animals practice homosexuality etc...as it that is the standard troy_gs: God help me luminous_spirit: exactly salvatore.. or "well it's ONLY natural" salvatore 49: as if* BCWoman61: I resent that Bruce, Chaveh didn't nag. She went to her overseer and asked for clarification and he didn't offer it. BCWoman61: here is the link to the google book scan of Derech hashem Troy ... http://tinyurl.com/ydw7uwy BCWoman61: the hard copy is better, but this let's you see what we are reading from SHeMABruce: Eve sinned first, that's my point. Frankly, I think Adam is sometimes a victim of religious political correctness A D A M_3: forgave and took his child troy_gs: it was eve's fault salvatore 49: it was both their faults troy_gs: adam told God, the woman who you gave to me made me eat the fruit TwinkleInHisEye: i believe Adam is at greater fault for allowing Eve and then willfully indulging himself A D A M_3: eve disobeyed her husband....and ate...... then handed it to him to eat TwinkleInHisEye: so much for man being head of household ... right from start he failed Isibel: Maybe adam loved eve so much he didnt want to lose her and ate too BEHANU: *** Let's bring questions to the mic folks A D A M_3: isibel;.;;perhaps luminous_spirit: eve was "seduced" by the sly serpent, adam was just lazy lol TwinkleInHisEye: oops sorry Isibel: Well luminous_spirit: i agree Isibel Isibel: Yes KosherSue: Sorry Olive, but I really can't relate to your so-called quesions. You are way off topic! A D A M_3: eve was a disobedient wife' troy_gs: well, let the teacher back on the mic luminous_spirit: i agree too BC.. perhaps in the same spirit as Bruce, perhaps Adam just caved in because he wanted to keep what he had with eve troy_gs: this is a class luminous_spirit: explain that Adam A D A M_3: she knew not to eat from adam...... yet she disobeyed him and ate anyways because it looked good salvatore 49: and so who did 'adam' disobey then adam3? luminous_spirit: she knew not to eat by G-d, they both did TwinkleInHisEye: yes he did salvatore 49: i think it is very weak for any man to blame woman in these matters A D A M_3: yes he should of knocked h er hand down..... sherryr: The text reads as if Adam is with Chava when she ate, why didn't he intercede? Jean Elizabeth: phone luminous_spirit: exactly sherry TwinkleInHisEye: sherry yes, exactly A D A M_3: luminous...... GOD gave the command before eve was formed TwinkleInHisEye: and then to add insult to injury, he willfully eats home row: first.... there is only adam being given the 'do not eat' directive..... 2nd... after she ate she could have walked a mile before she handed it to him to eat luminous_spirit: ok Adam A D A M_3: adam was there with her.....and didnt take charge over the issue... luminous_spirit: good point home row A D A M_3: bc...... good insight TwinkleInHisEye: no hiding behind anything, lol home row: women give birth to children that do not know what mom knows troy_gs: TwinkleInHisEye: i lost my page ... where are we? troy_gs: u believe in purgatory? A D A M_3: 99 TwinkleInHisEye: ty BEHANU: troy - it is a traditional teaching within judaism troy_gs: i did not know that SHeMABruce: The nearness to "universal salvation" is probably the single issue that I differ with, but it is only one of many items. BEHANU: gehenna BEHANU: gehinom troy_gs: i thought gehenna was greek BEHANU: etc Jean Elizabeth: back SHeMABruce: sheol BEHANU: yes

Jean Elizabeth: thanks BCW A D A M_3: 99 A D A M_3: bottem of 99 luminous_spirit: i am sorry to have to cut out early people.. but i am not feeling well.. have enjoyed the class.. TY again isibel luminous_spirit: goodnight everyone.. see ya next time SHeMABruce: gnight

SHeMABruce: sherryr: Shalom luminous A D A M_3: luminius shalom Jean Elizabeth: nite luminous hope you feel better soon TwinkleInHisEye: feel better luminus luminous_spirit: ty ty laila tov A D A M_3: lol. SHeMABruce: few people are really "evil." All make mistakes, but few are evil YehoshuaBA: ban that last guy who came in BEHANU: hitler got das boot KosherSue: lol A D A M_3: when i see others doing the same bad deeds i do.....they seem so much worse olivesnr: can some on defin who or what evil is? Jean Elizabeth: lol adam SHeMABruce: overcoming sin seems to bring a torrent of light. BEHANU: at the fundamental level - evil is that which limits the light of G-d in this world BEHANU: I used that definition as some 'evil' is necessary BEHANU: i.e., we cannot exist without a level of restriction of the light of G-d Jean Elizabeth: why is evil necessary? BEHANU: jean - see above for 1 reason olivesnr: evil is a intety? SHeMABruce: imho, "evil" is the choice of a lifestyle of sin. It is a willful choice in direction against similarity to God BEHANU: you could not exist without a level of restriction of G-d's light Jean Elizabeth: yes and adam chose wrong BEHANU: There are different ways evil presents ... the FUNDAMENTAL principle however is as mentioned above BEHANU: Important to get that idea first A D A M_3: evil is often called the kingdom of darkones\ A D A M_3: imho olivesnr: suffering comes in different sahpe olivesnr: i thought god cant create bad? A D A M_3: GOD DON'T do bad olivesnr: who come he created evil which is bad olivesnr: evil is bad

A D A M_3: no...... bad is evil BEHANU: olive - we been discussing that over the classes - evil is a natural 'by product' (?) of good SHeMABruce: God created choice BEHANU: consequence is a better word - thanks isibel SHeMABruce: but there His light had to be restricted for choice to exist SHeMABruce: ...then His* olivesnr: bcwoman i know that verse and i am asking why God did made dakness or evil? BEHANU: interesting SHeMABruce: weird, I'm not seeing BC's text SHeMABruce: or even BC... A D A M_3: 38Is it not out of the mouth of the Most High that evil and good both proceed [adversity and prosperity, physical evil or misfortune and physical good or happiness]? SHeMABruce: Akiva? A D A M_3: yeap...... sin was full Jean Elizabeth: wb BCW A D A M_3: 103 #7 SHeMABruce: rats. takes forever to raise the hand BEHANU: brb SHeMABruce: now i can't lower my hand Isibel: go ahead A D A M_3: low A D A M_3: low BCWoman61: ok, can you see me now Bruce? jeremiah3131: what happened Jean Elizabeth: wb behanu BEHANU: i missed the q jeremiah3131: ok that was freaky olivesnr: bc i can see u BCWoman61: sorry about that olive. My computer is having a hard time and my computer technician (ie my husband) hasn't had a chance to figure out what's up A D A M_3: yeah...i can see the woman too SHeMABruce: i see ya bc BCWoman61: ok Bruce BEHANU: gehinnom is not so nice BCWoman61: sometimes I have switch into the admin account instead of the user account and that puts the whole computer at risk. BCWoman61: so Bruce, the fact that I have been ill most of my adult life, I should count as joy? It's a perfection of my nefesh to better allow me to choose the yetzer tov? SHeMABruce: the concept is, bc, that it is far better to suffer for our mistakes in this life than it is in the next. SHeMABruce: the "righteous" suffer in this life. The wicked suffer in the afterlife BCWoman61: yes, I understand Bruce, it just helps to understand why we suffer if we understand it's purpose BCWoman61: wait, the wicked suffer? The ramchal says the wicked are extinguished. SHeMABruce: purification comes through suffering BEHANU: those who love G-d will have the little evil they do punished in this world. The G-dless will have the little good they do rewarded in this world. The world to come is a time of only reward for those who love G-d. Jean Elizabeth: according to ecc 9v5 there is no suffering after death BCWoman61: so if one suffers is one doing evil behanu? BEHANU: question from BC BEHANU: BCWoman61: wait, the wicked suffer? The ramchal says the wicked are extinguished. A D A M_3: imho...... obedience brings about purification BEHANU: Do the wicked suffer before being extinguished? SHeMABruce: suffer for their generation BEHANU: Question: Do the wicked suffer before being extinguished? BCWoman61: yes I guess I was just looking for personal answers Isibel, which might not be appropriate in the class. SHeMABruce: i think there is limitation with any personal questions since we don't know all the circumstances and, imho, neither do those who suffer. Jean Elizabeth: there are consequences from sin that cause suffering BCWoman61: yes Bruce, I apologize A D A M_3: bc.....that can be approprate. A D A M_3: when it fits in to the lesson BCWoman61: plus, I have read further and some of the information is covered in the next section on Individual providence as well SHeMABruce: not a bad question, bc. just difficult to answer in specific circumstances. BEHANU: Few people can discern that - they are tzadikim BCWoman61: there are many reasons for suffering and it's hard to isolate which one might be in effect BEHANU: he can help you to win too A D A M_3: 105 SHeMABruce: this is an extremely important section of the book. BCWoman61: for example the ramchal says the poor may be challenged with that suffering to see if they will be content with what they have or induced to the evil of complaining against hashem BCWoman61: when Isibel has a chance I would like to revisit a statement on page 97 .... "whereas the punishment (of the wicked implied) is being thrust away from this true good and perishing. BCWoman61: everybody is somebody's child and were loved and cherished A D A M_3: i dont accept the victim attitude BEHANU: There is a point here ... BCWoman61: while they may have made the ultimate choice, they may indeed have been forced to the place where they had to make that choice SHeMABruce: BC, fyi....the color of your text is difficult to read. could you make it a bit darker? Jean Elizabeth: saddly not all children are loved or cherished BCWoman61: sure Bruce, thanks for saying something A D A M_3: bc...... thats an interesting puzzling situtation BEHANU: they dont go to the olam haba Jean Elizabeth: Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. BEHANU: My understanding is they get a free stop in Gehenna first. SHeMABruce: i figure they will be "punished to death" BEHANU: open mic Isibel: still on the muc SHeMABruce: lol BCWoman61: I am having such trouble with my isp and paltalk

BCWoman61: ok, thanks. My inclination is one way too BCWoman61: Bruce is this born ok? BCWoman61: brown sigh SHeMABruce: yes bc A D A M_3: bc.....looks good SHeMABruce: nice earth tones BCWoman61: hashem does not need to have people suffer to have his justice satisfied. SHeMABruce: Though it is a good thing to ponder, I personally think little of what will happen to the very wicked and prefer to just insure that I'm not one of them.

A D A M_3: bruce...... try harder SHeMABruce: for sure adam BCWoman61: but G-d's justice and his mercy allow people opportunity to make teshuvah through gilgul? and yes I understand that's for another lesson BEHANU: Talmud, Rosh HaShana 16b - the thoroughly wicked will forthwith be inscribed definitively as doomed to Gehinnom, as it says. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence. BCWoman61: it's just that the concept of gilgul explains so much BEHANU: sounds like eternal punishment or does it? BEHANU: need to do more research A D A M_3: abhorrence...... means? BCWoman61: not to be Behanu, everlasting abhorrence doesn't mean they continue to exist and suffer Jean Elizabeth: thanks for the room SHeMABruce: i figure "eternal death" is eventual destruction.....cease to exist

BEHANU: Adam ... research needed A D A M_3: k BEHANU: BC correct BEHANU: as i said "or does it?" BEHANU: But it does indicate a trip to Gehinnom for the wicked BCWoman61: behanu page 105 now addresses this .... BCWoman61: In the case of the absolutely wicked .... BCWoman61: they therefore do not experience eternal life AT ALL. A D A M_3: but...... not all that prosper are evil A D A M_3: now where is she at? SHeMABruce: I don't know adam, Gates DID create windows. He deserves punishment for that. BCWoman61: page 107 section 9 A D A M_3: yah.... a whip BCWoman61: Bruce, it's not windows that deserves punishment, but his continued insistence on trying to fix it with new versions SHeMABruce: i fixed it BC. I got a Mac. BCWoman61: but the point is Bruce, the first windows could be forgiven, but vista is not YehoshuaBA: lol BC

BCWoman61: my husband says if paltalk worked on it my computer would be linux A D A M_3: for some reason....im not a cut and dry type of a guy...... like this book is BCWoman61: intriguing Adam, I don't see it as cut and dried in the ramchal. SHeMABruce: book only touches upon much broader topics BEHANU: want to break for mic Q and A SHeMABruce: not meant to be an all inclusive book A D A M_3: yeah.....i want that book A D A M_3: inner space SHeMABruce: good book BEHANU: a lot of books refer back to Derech Hashem BCWoman61: me too Adam, but not working and being sick curtails the budget. I plan for down the road. SHeMABruce: as is Thirteen Petalled Rose TwinkleInHisEye: i just ordered that SHeMABruce: almost through with it Wesleyismyname: thanks BEHANU: Lets take a few minutes for Derech Hashem questions -- then maybe isibel can stick around for other Torah related discusssion? SHeMABruce: haha A D A M_3: is tha a hint behanu? TwinkleInHisEye: roflol BEHANU: adam ? SHeMABruce: "flaming heretics" are what will be seen during the "suffering" BEHANU: I lost my room greeting .... BEHANU: for the newbies A D A M_3: This is a formal class on principals underlying the Torah as found in the classic text, Derech Hashem. Questions should be related to the text - limit to 30 seconds each Class is each Wednesday nights at 9pm eastern. lnfo found at www.yashanet.com/derech BCWoman61: Isibel, if we come in contact with those who are "absolutely wicked as a result of their deeds" is it possible for us be affected by the fallout of their punishment in this world? A D A M_3: has anyone here been involved in this inner space yet? SHeMABruce: yes adam SHeMABruce: great book BEHANU: BC is on a roll with good Qs A D A M_3: bruce.....the question seems more personal SHeMABruce: Joseph suffered A D A M_3: are we able to protect ourself from this evil? BCWoman61: so if I were to align myself with a person, say my husband, who chooses wickedness, I would probably suffer from that association? BEHANU: door swings both ways A D A M_3: transference...... possible bc

BCWoman61: it was just an example, not my situation SHeMABruce: i'd say yes. You could be a victim of "calateral damage" A D A M_3: the marriage to be as one BCWoman61: right, that's the word I was looking for Bruce BEHANU: More than once in Torah G-d told people to "get out of the way" or "mark your doors" BCWoman61: I am thinking of the concept in christianity which teaches a upright wife can "save" her husband BEHANU: A distorted truth perhaps BC A D A M_3: can? or might? SHeMABruce: if you're standing next to a homicide bomber, you may get a bit of a shock BCWoman61: the spiritual pollution seems like it be more likely to subvert the righteous person A D A M_3: according to this book...... a good wife can have a good influence on the husband BEHANU: Sure - door swings both ways BCWoman61: yes Adam, but each person's choices are his own so even the wife's good example may not affect the husband in anyway. A D A M_3: agree bc BCWoman61: For example the man who refused to give David food, but whose wife sneaked out to give it to him. A D A M_3: child and brother are not same as one part of a marriage SHeMABruce: Abigail A D A M_3: bc...... i like that story BCWoman61: true Adam, but there were not a lot of parents going out and taking their grown children to be stoned because they were so gone in wickedness BEHANU: Get the book!! Info at www.yashanet.com/derech

BEHANU: Make time A D A M_3: not studying perhaps BCWoman61: I think there are also some concepts that challenge traditional modern thinking

A D A M_3: oh smack them...... wake them up jeremiah3131: i just been listening A D A M_3: oh challenges..... lots of them YehoshuaBA: low Isibel: low SHeMABruce: 1 A D A M_3: low BCWoman61: most adult learners are readily aural learners SHeMABruce: hear ya but it sounds squeaky A D A M_3: breaking somewhat too BCWoman61: it sounds like you are whispering Strider_100: tks guys ... past midnite here and up early BCWoman61: rest well Strider Isibel: Shalom Strider A D A M_3: isibel..... can you share your mic with that guy? Isibel: No Isibel: behanu germs SHeMABruce: lol BCWoman61: lol Isibel awlthroear: thanks Isibel gotta run

A D A M_3: no? BCWoman61: take care awl Isibel: Shalom awl SHeMABruce: uhmm. isibel. I think its a bit to late to worry about behanu germs BCWoman61: Isibel, I can guaranteed that he will put no germs on your mic to which you have not already been exposed Isibel: lol SHeMABruce: yes BCWoman61: but chlorox wipes are safe for microphones - lol KosherSue: Thx Isibel, good teaching tonight. Isibel: thank you it is a tremendous blessing BCWoman61: Isibel is this your email [email protected] Isibel: Yes

BCWoman61: I hear behanu taking my name in vain but didn't hear what he said Isibel: NO SHeMABruce: cya later. good stuff again isibel. YHVH bless. Isibel: [email protected] A D A M_3: bc..... same here LevEchad: Sorry I was afk (phone)....what is with the mic?? BCWoman61: the one about suffering? Isibel: Shalom Bruce BEHANU: any Isibel: LOL BEHANU: BTW, Inner Space is a great bok TwinkleInHisEye: thank you Isibel, wonderful class ...... good night all Isibel: go ahead BEHANU: go ahead and toss it out BEHANU: we can talk now and again later A D A M_3: guess im in trouble...... not suffering much here BCWoman61: no sorry BEHANU: ushpizin kimmv75: oh, it's wonderful!

BCWoman61: don't faint, I have no tv YehoshuaBA: good for you bc BCWoman61: yes, contentment where we are LevEchad: perfect line, lol BCWoman61: count it all joy A D A M_3: count it all joy...... james BEHANU: Romans 5:3-5 BCWoman61: an, of course, adam, in this world you will have tribulation so be of good cheer A D A M_3: i think...... in obedience...... the tribulation is in HIS hands BEHANU: rebbe nachman BCWoman61: in all cases ... so Iyov's friends were not necessarily incorrect to think he might have done something? BEHANU: that is nach nach nachman BCWoman61: but our challenge is to discern whether we suffer for perfection or punishment? I guess that's my concern. A D A M_3: that word suffer...... can be ambigious

BCWoman61: Adam, without going into details, suffer suits my circumstances A D A M_3: mmmmmmmm A D A M_3: im holding back on this subject...... BCWoman61: study and meditation has always helped me to cope; knowledge and wisdom bring comfort despite circumstances BCWoman61: no it's fine Isibel, I am hearing A D A M_3: jeanne guyon...... is a good example of suffering with joy...... BEHANU: This gets into Divine Providence BEHANU: Which is not a city in Rhode Island BCWoman61: I don't know this name Adam, I am sorry BCWoman61: lol Behanu A D A M_3: she lived in 17 century france A D A M_3: her crimb was she loved JESUS too much..... BEHANU: guyon was a bit whacki A D A M_3: madam guyon was a great lady Isibel: lol Isibel: do you have one? A D A M_3: an example of someone suffering without cause BCWoman61: good jeremiah Isibel: Glad that you came BCWoman61: I guess Adam, I don't think there is "without cause" BCWoman61: sometimes the cause is the betterment of the world. BEHANU: Anyone with a torah question?

BCWoman61: yes that's what the auto part means just kidding you Adam. Isibel: Explain yourself Isibel: BEhanu Isibel: LOL Isibel: We will switch places Isibel: He can be me BCWoman61: oh gender change again A D A M_3: ok put the apron on him Isibel: LOL Isibel: exactly BEHANU: She was a catholic mystic .. not my cup of tea Isibel: LOL LevEchad: oh that woman with the deep voice again? BCWoman61: ah mystic, oh can I understand Isibel: LOL BEHANU: been reading accounts of her visions ... weird A D A M_3: your ok LevEchad: speak on, BC woman BEHANU: sounds like the ocean A D A M_3: behanu...... what book? im interested. BEHANU: Guyon spoke of her goal as "perfect obedience to the will of the Lord, submission to the church" (Guyon, Autobiography). A D A M_3: mmmmmm i am looking at that book here..... have to read it A D A M_3: finish* A D A M_3: reading it BEHANU: can u repeat that? BEHANU: mic dropped BEHANU: me YehoshuaBA: ok BEHANU: 1 kimmv75: 1 Isibel: Yes A D A M_3: still here LevEchad: I am very much appreciating the teaching LevEchad: Helpful comment, Behanu BCWoman61: can I ask you a personal question about your own study life Isibel? LevEchad: Yes, it takes leaving one's comfort zone of what is familiar, of what has been pre-programmed. Isibel: Please A D A M_3: i don't like my comfort zone...... A D A M_3: gettin too olde BCWoman61: comfort zones makes it sound like a good thing. Really it's being stuck in a rut Isibel: LOL true A D A M_3: yeap LevEchad: definitely overwhelming, a few calm moments at times, lol BEHANU: we ate donuts Isibel: home made ones A D A M_3: i read at stop lites at times BEHANU: etc LevEchad: Good point BCWOman; however it seems that "a comfortable rut" is all that many know. A D A M_3: some folks dont care for trips Isibel: please Isibel: and thank you BCWoman61: ok 3 legged stool will check that out BCWoman61: thank you BCWoman61: b" h BCWoman61: we lost everything 5 years ago to black mold and haven't been physically well or financially stable since then, so I am thankful for online resources BCWoman61: thank you for answer Isibel Isibel: yw BCWoman61: prayer, study and mitzvot BCWoman61: I know it sounds odd, but I have become totally isolated here because where I live there is no people I would consider of like mind and then financial circumstances reinforced that. I don't say that to sound like a victim though so don't think that. BCWoman61: it's hard to find those sometimes though Behanu, so the internet can be a real blessing to some of us BCWoman61: an earthquake in CA can cause a tidal wave in Japan, it is proven BEHANU: she's the scientist Isibel: Its real discovered accidently A D A M_3: im thinking the action /reaction thing may be more spiritual; Isibel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect Isibel: Its called the butterfly effect Isibel: and its not some sci-fi silly notion Isibel: its a mathematical concept Isibel: based in chaos theory BEHANU: BC so glad you are here BCWoman61: thanks behanu Isibel: I am too BEHANU: Hey Ms Hawking - take the mic A D A M_3: dont like emptying the mind A D A M_3: we are never to just empy the mind BCWoman61: sorry Isibel can you resend A D A M_3: im wondering what else this teacher was doing...... BEHANU: Napoleon Hill A D A M_3: think and grow rich BCWoman61: Adam, ironically she called herself a christian and attended a local church A D A M_3: shes a witch BCWoman61: but the Ramchal discusses this too, that the angels have control over certain aspects and may interact, doesn't he? A D A M_3: yes...... but the need to test the spirits is paramount BCWoman61: so angels may manifest to someone, especially one with the prophesy BCWoman61: really, you think the angels who appeared at lot's door were not physical? A D A M_3: a messinager can be physical. BCWoman61: ok BCWoman61: yes it would be interesting A D A M_3: shalom