Gurus: Sir Ken Robinson

Subtitles

Associated Teachers TV programme

0001 10:00:09:21 10:00:13:05

(narrator) Sir Ken Robinson is a former professor of education

0002 10:00:13:05 10:00:15:05 at Warwick University.

0003 10:00:15:05 10:00:18:11

In 1998, he led a major government inquiry

0004 10:00:18:11 10:00:21:21 on creativity, education and the economy.

0005 10:00:21:21 10:00:26:20

He is now a senior adviser to the J Paul Getty Trust in California.

0006 10:00:26:20 10:00:29:21

Speaking in a debate on creativity versus the curriculum

0007 10:00:29:21 10:00:31:06 at the Education Show,

0008 10:00:31:06 10:00:35:06 he laid out why he believes education must change.

0009 10:00:36:20 10:00:39:16 Every education system on earth is being reformed,

0010 10:00:39:16 10:00:41:06 without exception,

0011 10:00:41:06 10:00:45:05 and in my opinion, the mistake most countries are making

0012 10:00:45:05 10:00:49:22 is to believe that we can face the future in education

0013 10:00:49:22 10:00:53:02 by doing better what we did in the past.

0014 10:00:53:02 10:00:57:14

We just have to do more of it and raise standards.

0015 10:00:57:14 10:01:00:11

But the issue is, which standards are we talking about?

0016 10:01:00:11 10:01:03:23

Standards of what? In the interests of what?

0017 10:01:03:23 10:01:08:16

And I find it rather exasperating when people - policymakers -

0018 10:01:08:16 10:01:12:14 acquire this benign expression and talk about "back to basics".

0019 10:01:12:14 10:01:17:09

Well, what is basic now? That's, I think, what I want to put to you.

0020 10:01:17:09 10:01:20:18

I do not know of an education system on earth -

0021 10:01:20:18 10:01:23:20 a public school-system, I mean, not an individual school -

0022 10:01:23:20 10:01:26:05

I mean a public school-system

0023 10:01:26:05 10:01:31:05 which gives the same status to dance as it does to mathematics.

0024 10:01:31:05 10:01:33:19

What interests me is most people are OK with that.

0025 10:01:33:19 10:01:36:19

They say, "Why would you teach people to dance every day?"

0026 10:01:36:19 10:01:38:19

Well, why wouldn't you?

0027 10:01:38:19 10:01:41:19

Seriously, why wouldn't you? Why do we abandon dance?

0028 10:01:41:19 10:01:44:05 Children and adults dance when they can.

0029 10:01:44:05 10:01:46:07

It's a feature of every culture ever,

0030 10:01:46:07 10:01:48:24 so why don't we teach it in schools every day?

0031 10:01:48:24 10:01:52:19

We all have bodies, don't we?

0032 10:01:52:19 10:01:55:23

- Did I miss a meeting? - (laughter)

0033 10:01:55:23 10:01:57:05

I think we have them.

0034 10:01:57:05 10:01:59:08

There is a hierarchy of subjects.

0035 10:01:59:08 10:02:02:13

They don't all call them "core" or "foundation" subjects,

0036 10:02:02:13 10:02:05:02 but they call them something like that.

0037 10:02:05:02 10:02:07:21

But it's the same configuration.

0038 10:02:07:21 10:02:09:10 And this is the hierarchy:

0039 10:02:09:10 10:02:13:03 at the top of the hierarchy are languages,

0040 10:02:13:03 10:02:16:06 mathematics and science,

0041 10:02:16:06 10:02:20:24 and then the humanities, and a bit further down are the arts.

0042 10:02:20:24 10:02:25:03

And in most school systems, there's another hierarchy within the arts.

0043 10:02:25:03 10:02:28:08

Art and music are normally given higher priority

0044 10:02:28:08 10:02:30:15 than drama and dance.

0045 10:02:30:15 10:02:32:23

Isn't this the case?

0046 10:02:32:23 10:02:34:23

What happens in our education system

0047 10:02:34:23 10:02:39:20 is that we progressively educate our children from the knees upwards.

0048 10:02:39:20 10:02:42:16 We progress towards their head at a pretty fast rate,

0049 10:02:42:16 10:02:46:09 and by secondary school, we are preoccupied with their head.

0050 10:02:46:09 10:02:50:02

We focus on their head and educate them to one side of it, slightly.

0051 10:02:50:02 10:02:51:17

Pretty much.

0052 10:02:51:17 10:02:55:18

In fact, it's no exaggeration to say that education, increasingly,

0053 10:02:55:18 10:02:59:24 from kindergarten on, is a sustained process of university entrance.

0054 10:02:59:24 10:03:02:23

That's how we judge success - do you get to college or not?

0055 10:03:02:23 10:03:06:24

Colleges are run by professors, so we expect they're the top people.

0056 10:03:06:24 10:03:10:05

Well, I used to be a university professor.

0057 10:03:10:05 10:03:12:05

- So there! - (laughter) 0058 10:03:12:05 10:03:15:01

No, I'm saying this not to present my credentials,

0059 10:03:15:01 10:03:18:12 but to say I'm not speaking about something of which I know nothing.

0060 10:03:18:12 10:03:20:22

Nor am I speaking in criticism of professors.

0061 10:03:20:22 10:03:22:19

I think most of them are lovely.

0062 10:03:22:19 10:03:26:13

I hang out with them socially and they have a lot to recommend them,

0063 10:03:26:13 10:03:31:06 but they are a particular form of life, you know,

0064 10:03:31:06 10:03:32:22 and just one among many.

0065 10:03:32:22 10:03:35:21

But that form of life has come to dominate our conception

0066 10:03:35:21 10:03:37:21 of what it is to be an educated person.

0067 10:03:37:21 10:03:41:07 The reason we have this hierarchy of subjects in schools is this:

0068 10:03:41:07 10:03:44:12 we introduced the education system in this country

0069 10:03:44:12 10:03:49:01 initially to meet the growing demands of the industrial economy,

0070 10:03:49:01 10:03:52:23 and the education system was partly shaped in its image.

0071 10:03:52:23 10:03:56:08

One of the reasons why there's a hierarchy of subjects in schools

0072 10:03:56:08 10:04:00:23 is because they're embedded on some conception of utility.

0073 10:04:00:23 10:04:03:11

Which subjects will be useful for getting a job?

0074 10:04:03:11 10:04:06:12

But there's another reason, because people do not say:

0075 10:04:06:12 10:04:10:07

"Don't do maths. You're not going to be a mathematician."

0076 10:04:10:07 10:04:15:01

And that's because we are in a culture which has embedded in it

0077 10:04:15:01 10:04:18:13 a particular view of the status of different ways of knowing,

0078 10:04:18:13 10:04:20:16 different sorts of knowledge.

0079 10:04:20:16 10:04:24:06

This is, in part, connected to the fact that public education grew up

0080 10:04:24:06 10:04:27:19 in the interests of the industrial economy,

0081 10:04:27:19 10:04:32:19 but shaped in the intellectual interests of the universities.

0082 10:04:32:19 10:04:38:23

And the universities grew up in that great flowering of human endeavour

0083 10:04:38:23 10:04:42:21 that came from the Enlightenment, and then romanticism.

0084 10:04:42:21 10:04:46:11

One of the legacies of that is this bifurcation we have in our minds

0085 10:04:46:11 10:04:49:02 between, for example, the arts and the sciences, 0086 10:04:49:02 10:04:51:18 that real knowledge was about rational thinking,

0087 10:04:51:18 10:04:54:20 logico-deductive reasoning, propositional knowledge.

0088 10:04:54:20 10:04:58:23

That's what science was about, that's what academic work was about.

0089 10:04:58:23 10:05:01:13

The arts were important for various reasons.

0090 10:05:01:13 10:05:04:20

They were to do with leisure, to do with being cultivated,

0091 10:05:04:20 10:05:08:09 but not really seriously to compete with the hard-edged realities

0092 10:05:08:09 10:05:10:10 of science and technology.

0093 10:05:10:10 10:05:14:08

So there are historical reasons for why the system is the way it is,

0094 10:05:14:08 10:05:17:03 and I think there are powerful reasons to rethink it.

0095 10:05:17:03 10:05:19:06 I was born in 1950.

0096 10:05:19:06 10:05:21:09

Now, I know you don't believe this,

0097 10:05:21:09 10:05:25:05 but I live in Los Angeles and I've had work done. That's all I can say.

0098 10:05:25:05 10:05:30:17

In 1950, people were born into large families. I'm one of seven children,

0099 10:05:30:17 10:05:34:02 my dad was one of six, my mum was one of seven.

0100 10:05:34:02 10:05:37:01

People in Britain certainly didn't have cars in 1950.

0101 10:05:37:01 10:05:41:12

We didn't have telephones. We didn't have televisions,

0102 10:05:41:12 10:05:44:11 fridges, electricity.

0103 10:05:44:11 10:05:47:10

- Food, you know. - (laughter)

0104 10:05:47:10 10:05:50:13

Roofs. We didn't have stuff like that.

0105 10:05:50:13 10:05:52:13 It was hard.

0106 10:05:53:14 10:05:57:02

But also, women stayed at home and worked, for the most part.

0107 10:05:57:02 10:05:58:20

Men went out to work.

0108 10:05:58:20 10:06:03:04

We were told a story at school that was true.

0109 10:06:03:04 10:06:05:10

The story was, if we worked hard,

0110 10:06:05:10 10:06:09:08 and especially if we passed the eleven-plus

0111 10:06:09:08 10:06:12:02 and if we went to a grammar school - especially that -

0112 10:06:12:02 10:06:15:19 and if we went to university and got a degree,

0113 10:06:15:19 10:06:18:21 we were completely guaranteed a job.

0114 10:06:18:21 10:06:21:10

I don't think anybody questioned that story.

0115 10:06:21:10 10:06:23:10 There was no reason to. It was true.

0116 10:06:23:10 10:06:26:14

But it's not true now that if you leave college with a degree,

0117 10:06:26:14 10:06:28:05 you're guaranteed a job.

0118 10:06:28:05 10:06:31:15

It just isn't. There are major differences between then and now.

0119 10:06:31:15 10:06:32:23

Here's the thing.

0120 10:06:32:23 10:06:39:16

Children starting school this year will be retiring in 2065.

0121 10:06:40:15 10:06:42:14

Maybe 2070.

0122 10:06:43:14 10:06:47:16

Do you have any conception what the world may look like in 2065?

0123 10:06:47:16 10:06:51:04

If you do, write a book because nobody else does.

0124 10:06:51:04 10:06:55:15

Technology is moving faster than most people really understand. 0125 10:06:55:15 10:06:58:05

Nobody knows what the world will look like in 2065,

0126 10:06:58:05 10:07:01:07 or, frankly, whether there will be a 2065.

0127 10:07:01:07 10:07:03:19

It's an open question currently.

0128 10:07:03:19 10:07:07:18

To face this future, I believe passionately we have to rethink

0129 10:07:07:18 10:07:12:11 some of our basic conceptions of human intelligence and ability.

0130 10:07:12:11 10:07:14:20

To do that, we need to behave differently.

0131 10:07:14:20 10:07:18:10

We have to have different strategies in education.

0132 10:07:18:10 10:07:21:24

I think we have three priorities, three things we should do.

0133 10:07:21:24 10:07:25:02

One of them is personal.

0134 10:07:25:02 10:07:28:08

What I mean is our job is to focus on each child

0135 10:07:28:08 10:07:29:20 and help them do two things.

0136 10:07:29:20 10:07:33:17

One is to discover their own natural capabilities,

0137 10:07:33:17 10:07:35:20 because we're all different.

0138 10:07:35:20 10:07:38:10

And secondly, to give them the confidence

0139 10:07:38:10 10:07:41:17 to move into the world feeling they have a contribution to make

0140 10:07:41:17 10:07:43:23 and a life that will add up to something.

0141 10:07:43:23 10:07:48:04

The second major challenge we have for education is cultural.

0142 10:07:48:04 10:07:50:16

Education has to educate people

0143 10:07:50:16 10:07:53:21 to understand the world they are born into,

0144 10:07:53:21 10:07:58:18 their local cultural circumstances, so identity is a big piece of this,

0145 10:07:58:18 10:08:01:02 but we have to develop forms of education

0146 10:08:01:02 10:08:04:09 which promote mutual cultural understanding and tolerance.

0147 10:08:04:09 10:08:08:14

There is no alternative to this. If you look at the spread of conflict,

0148 10:08:08:14 10:08:13:09 assisted by technology, our only hope here is education

0149 10:08:13:09 10:08:17:15 and enlightening people about other people's cultural values.

0150 10:08:17:15 10:08:20:02

And the third, of course, is economic.

0151 10:08:20:02 10:08:24:03

We all want education to contribute to economic growth and development.

0152 10:08:24:03 10:08:27:15

It's a false dichotomy when people say it's not about the economy.

0153 10:08:27:15 10:08:32:07

It is about the economy, at two levels. We need an education system

0154 10:08:32:07 10:08:35:21 which will contribute to the growth of economic success

0155 10:08:35:21 10:08:38:02 because we depend on it,

0156 10:08:38:02 10:08:41:12 but we also want forms of economic growth which are sustainable.

0157 10:08:41:12 10:08:45:06

We can't literally afford economic growth at any price. We just can't.

0158 10:08:45:06 10:08:48:07

Now, creativity plays into it. Let me define creativity.

0159 10:08:48:07 10:08:53:08

Creativity is the process of having original ideas that have value.

0160 10:08:53:08 10:08:55:14

I think of it as applied imagination.

0161 10:08:55:14 10:08:58:24

Imagination is the capacity we have to bring to mind

0162 10:08:58:24 10:09:01:14 things that are not present to our senses. 0163 10:09:01:14 10:09:03:19

But everything comes from this

0164 10:09:03:19 10:09:07:22 because from the capacity to bring to mind things that aren't present

0165 10:09:07:22 10:09:11:17 grows the capacity to bring to mind things that have never been present,

0166 10:09:11:17 10:09:14:22 to hypothesise, to say, "What if?",

0167 10:09:14:22 10:09:18:03 to consider possibilities and to conjecture.

0168 10:09:18:03 10:09:22:00

And from that, every feature of human culture is developed.

0169 10:09:22:00 10:09:24:02

Without exception.

0170 10:09:24:02 10:09:26:12

Now, creativity, to me, is a step on.

0171 10:09:26:12 10:09:30:17

It's bedded in imagination, but it is the application of imagination.

0172 10:09:30:17 10:09:34:23

It's using that capacity to address a problem, 0173 10:09:34:23 10:09:38:00 or to conceive of an alternative way of thinking of things,

0174 10:09:38:00 10:09:41:11 or to produce something which is a response to a problem we have.

0175 10:09:41:11 10:09:43:11

But it's the application of it.

0176 10:09:43:11 10:09:46:17

The thing about it is that you can be creative at anything,

0177 10:09:46:17 10:09:49:13 but being creative is different for different people

0178 10:09:49:13 10:09:52:02 because to be doing something,

0179 10:09:52:02 10:09:54:19 which is what creativity is, a practical process,

0180 10:09:54:19 10:09:56:19 you have to be working in a medium.

0181 10:09:56:19 10:09:59:01

Creativity's a function of intelligence.

0182 10:09:59:01 10:10:02:11

The problem is we have too limited a conception of intelligence.

0183 10:10:02:11 10:10:04:21

Our education system is dominated by the view

0184 10:10:04:21 10:10:07:07 that academic ability in particular

0185 10:10:07:07 10:10:11:07 is the same thing as intelligence in general. It isn't.

0186 10:10:11:07 10:10:14:04

I prefer to think that intelligence is multifaceted.

0187 10:10:14:04 10:10:17:01

We think about the world in the ways we experience it.

0188 10:10:17:01 10:10:19:19

There are three things about intelligence we know.

0189 10:10:19:19 10:10:22:07

One is that intelligence is diverse.

0190 10:10:22:07 10:10:24:20

We think in all the ways we experience the world.

0191 10:10:24:20 10:10:27:20

We think in sound, in movement, kinaesthetically,

0192 10:10:27:20 10:10:29:21 we think in abstract terms.

0193 10:10:29:21 10:10:34:06

Secondly, intelligence is dynamic - inherently dynamic.

0194 10:10:34:06 10:10:36:17

If you look at the patterns of brain activity

0195 10:10:36:17 10:10:39:01 under magnetic resonance imaging systems,

0196 10:10:39:01 10:10:43:14 the brain is constantly lighting up, there's a matrix of energy.

0197 10:10:43:14 10:10:45:14

I mean, there are bits of the brain

0198 10:10:45:14 10:10:49:18 where certain activities are focused and have a central point,

0199 10:10:49:18 10:10:51:18 but none of it works independently.

0200 10:10:51:18 10:10:54:16

When people speak, their brains light up in many places.

0201 10:10:54:16 10:10:57:12

The third thing we know about intelligence is it's distinct. 0202 10:10:57:12 10:10:59:12

Everybody's mind is different.

0203 10:10:59:12 10:11:01:14

It's a combination of your experience,

0204 10:11:01:14 10:11:03:23 your genetic inheritance and your life.

0205 10:11:03:23 10:11:05:07

Your biography.

0206 10:11:05:07 10:11:08:20

Nature and nurture meeting head-on and merging in some unique way.

0207 10:11:08:20 10:11:11:18

You are a unique moment in history.

0208 10:11:11:18 10:11:17:04

Well, when you say, "How do you operationalise this stuff?"

0209 10:11:17:04 10:11:20:14

I'll conclude with this. I think the implications run like this.

0210 10:11:20:14 10:11:23:08

The first is that, for the future,

0211 10:11:23:08 10:11:27:09 we have to promote people's natural capacities for fresh thinking 0212 10:11:27:09 10:11:28:23 for their own wellbeing,

0213 10:11:28:23 10:11:31:12 so they can meet the rapid rate of change head-on

0214 10:11:31:12 10:11:34:04 and participate and not feel alienated by it.

0215 10:11:34:04 10:11:37:03

So they're flexible, and can contribute positively

0216 10:11:37:03 10:11:40:10 to economic, personal and cultural development.

0217 10:11:40:10 10:11:44:02

It's absolutely essential.

0218 10:11:44:02 10:11:47:23

To do that, we have to rebalance the school curriculum.

0219 10:11:47:23 10:11:52:00

This hierarchy has got to go. We need a curriculum that represents

0220 10:11:52:00 10:11:54:11 the multiplicity of our ways of thinking.

0221 10:11:54:11 10:11:57:10

For some people it will be music, for some, dance, drama,

0222 10:11:57:10 10:11:59:12 for some it will be maths, algebra.

0223 10:11:59:12 10:12:02:21

In the primary school, I think we need to give children exposure

0224 10:12:02:21 10:12:05:20 to all these different disciplines and ways of thinking

0225 10:12:05:20 10:12:08:02 so that they can discover their strengths.

0226 10:12:08:02 10:12:12:02

For me, in the upper secondary school we can begin to specialise.

0227 10:12:12:02 10:12:14:04

But the hierarchy has to go.

0228 10:12:14:04 10:12:16:08

We have to rethink that basis.

0229 10:12:16:08 10:12:19:15

Secondly, I think we should get rid of the idea of subjects.

0230 10:12:19:15 10:12:21:19

We build schools around subjects,

0231 10:12:21:19 10:12:23:24 and then we employ people to teach them.

0232 10:12:23:24 10:12:26:23

People should be passionate about the thing they teach.

0233 10:12:26:23 10:12:31:03

The problem can be hiring teachers to teach subjects, not children.

0234 10:12:31:03 10:12:35:01

And we are there to teach children through the expertise that we have.

0235 10:12:35:01 10:12:37:09

And finally, it should be distinct.

0236 10:12:37:09 10:12:39:23

We should be fashioning our curricula

0237 10:12:39:23 10:12:43:01 to identify the different ways that children really learn

0238 10:12:43:01 10:12:45:24 and which appeal to their particular circumstances.

0239 10:12:45:24 10:12:49:14

Call that learning styles or what you will, but the skill of teaching

0240 10:12:49:14 10:12:53:11 is to connect the passion you have for your own field 0241 10:12:53:11 10:12:56:10 with the interests of the child. That's what it is.

0242 10:12:56:10 10:12:58:12

But we need to reconstitute education

0243 10:12:58:12 10:13:02:22 around a different conception of economic requirements,

0244 10:13:02:22 10:13:05:12 but rooted in a different conception of ability -

0245 10:13:05:12 10:13:07:13 that we all have creative capacities.

0246 10:13:07:13 10:13:11:21

It's cultivating them through knowledge and discipline.

0247 10:13:11:21 10:13:15:06

It's a kind of dance, I think, between knowledge and hypothesis.

0248 10:13:15:06 10:13:18:03

Teaching for creativity is a very skilled process.

0249 10:13:18:03 10:13:20:03

It's not just slipping the leash.

0250 10:13:20:03 10:13:23:23 Our job is to educate people for a future that we don't comprehend.

0251 10:13:23:23 10:13:26:00

We cannot educate people for the future

0252 10:13:26:00 10:13:29:02 by thinking all we have to do is get back to what we did in 1950

0253 10:13:29:02 10:13:31:14 and it'll all sort itself out. It simply won't.

0254 10:13:31:14 10:13:33:18

Not economically and not culturally.

0255 10:13:33:18 10:13:35:24

But education is the way forward.

0256 10:13:35:24 10:13:38:21

Truthfully, we can't see this future for our children

0257 10:13:38:21 10:13:41:03 and we may not be there to share it with them.

0258 10:13:41:03 10:13:45:04

Our job is to enable them to embrace it and to make it what it could be.

0259 10:13:45:04 10:13:48:22

I think, if we understand creativity in the right way, we can help them. 0260 10:13:48:22 10:13:52:04

And I think that's why we got into education in the first place.

0261 10:13:54:12 10:13:57:12

Visiontext Subtitles: Jo Clarke

0262 10:13:57:12 10:13:59:12 www.visiontext.co.uk