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JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 1
MR. JOHN SHATTUCK, Speaker
Good afternoon. I'm John Shattuck, CEO of the John F. Kennedy Library Foundation, and together with Deborah Leff, who is here in the front row, the Director of the Library Museum, I want to welcome everyone on this Mother's Day to a very special Kennedy Library forum honoring one of the world's great human rights leaders and advocates of the rights of women, Shirin Ebadi.
Before introducing our guest of honor, let me just thank those who make the Kennedy Library forums possible, including Bank of America, Boston Capital, The Lowell Institute, Corcoran Jennison, and our media sponsors The Boston Globe, Boston.com, and 90.9 WBUR, which broadcasts all of these forums on Sunday evenings at 8:00.
On December 10, 1948, in one of the very first actions of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted. This remarkable document was drafted under the leadership of Eleanor Roosevelt and it reflected the collective hopes of people everywhere that an era of tolerance and freedom might emerge from the shadow of the worst war and oppression the world had ever seen. Fifty-five years later, on December 10, 2003, the anniversary of the Universal Declaration, an event took place in Oslo, Norway, that rekindled the hope for human rights in an era of renewed global conflict and intolerance. That event was the awarding of the Nobel Peace Prize to Shirin Ebadi. When she delivered her JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 2
Nobel lecture the new laureate had a powerful and courageous message. Here's part of what she said.
"I am an Iranian, a descendant of Cyrus the Great, the very emperor who proclaimed at the pinnacle of power 2,500 years ago that he would not reign over the people if they did not wish it. And he promised not to force any person to change his religion and faith and guaranteed freedom for all."
Our speaker this evening also had a powerful message in her Nobel speech about the human rights of women throughout the world. And here are a few of her words on that subject.
"My selection will be an inspiration to the masses of women who are striving to realize their rights. Women constitute half the population of every country. To disregard women and bar them from active participation in political, social, economic, and cultural life is to deprive the world and the entire population of every society of half its capability."
And at the end of her speech, she pointed the way toward a better world and referred back to the Universal Declaration.
"If the 21st century wishes to free itself from the cycle of violence, acts of terror and war, avoid repetition of the experience of the 20th century, there is no other way except by understanding and putting into practice every human right for all JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 3 humankind irrespective of gender, faith, nationality, or social status." And she closed by saying, "Let us anticipate that day."
These are extraordinary words and all the more so because of who is speaking and where she comes from. And you will no doubt hear much more this afternoon.
Shirin Ebadi is a human rights lawyer and the first woman in Iran to have served as a judge. From 1975 to 1979 she was President of one of the principal branches of the Tehran City Court. Following the Islamic revolution of 1979, she and other women judges were dismissed from their positions. She was barred for the next 12 years from the practice of law, and so she turned to writing and fashioning arguments for applying international human rights law within the framework of the Iranian Constitution.
Finally, after years of pressing for reinstatement as a lawyer, she was given her license back in 1992 and plunged immediately into representing Iranian journalists, students, and others seeking to exercise internationally recognized human rights. She has chosen to remain above politics, always arguing that human rights are universal and should not depend on who controls parliament or the security forces. In the face of overwhelming obstacles, she has succeeded in creating the first officially recognized independent, non-governmental human rights organization in Iran, The Society for the Protection of the Rights of the Child. She also helped found The Center for the Defense of Human Rights, the only Iranian organization JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 4 that provides legal assistance to the families of imprisoned journalists and student activists and other human rights victims in Iran.
She has repeatedly been thrown into detention and threatened because of her human rights advocacy, and through it all she has remained a beacon of hope to people in her own country and now throughout the world. She is famous for telling young Iranian activists that they should "have confidence, have courage and know that if we work hard, our struggle will be victorious." She is an inspiration to the world, and we are honored to have her here onstage at the Kennedy Library.
We are also very fortunate to have as our moderator this afternoon a distinguished human rights advocate and teacher, Jacqueline Bhabha, the Executive Director of Harvard's Committee on Human Rights Studies. Jackie is a frequent speaker at the Kennedy Library on human rights and brings great experience in the field. Before coming to Harvard she directed the Human Rights Program at the University of Chicago, served earlier as a practicing lawyer in London, frequently appearing before the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. She is a specialist on issues of women's rights, children's rights, and the rights of refugees and is published widely in these and many other areas of human rights law.
So, please join me in welcoming to the stage of the Kennedy Library Shirin Ebadi and Jacqueline Bhabha.
MS. JACQUELINE BHABHA, Moderator JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 5
John, thank you very much for those very warm words and thank you also to Debby and you for this opportunity to have a conversation with Shirin Ebadi, somebody who, like any other person interested in human rights, I admire enormously. It's a really great privilege and an honor to talk with you this afternoon.
I wanted to start off by asking you a personal question. What first prompted you to get involved in human rights? Was there one particular incident that you can remember or was it a gradual process of decision-making in the course of your life?
MS. SHIRIN EBADI, Speaker (with an interpreter)
I guess everybody is born with certain characteristics. Since my childhood I was attracted to something, and later on I realized it was justice. Whenever I saw kids fighting on a street, without knowing what their story was, I would involve myself and take sides with the weak side, just to defend the weak side against the more powerful side. I remember that I got beaten up several times also.
The same feeling directed me toward law school. Especially since my father, my uncle, and several of my relatives were attorneys and lawyers and, therefore, I was completely familiar with these questions about laws and rules. The same attraction JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 6 for law and justice made me go to the court after graduating from Tehran University and try to become a judge so that I can help people.
After the revolution, I was told that because I am a woman I am barred from practicing law and, therefore, I left the courts. So I got into the Iran Bar Association, got my license for practicing law, and started my own private practice. And that was when I started focusing my activities and my work on defending human rights. In addition to my own work on behalf of human rights, I started several NGOs that were already mentioned. At any time some people make money in this work and some people should defend the human rights.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if I could ask you a little bit more about the role of the law in a society like Iran. Clearly, there is a constitution, there are courts, there are judges. I gather that now there are women judges. So, in a sense, the fight that you initiated has been successful to some extent. But what is the role of law in a society like Iran? Are you relying on loopholes in the law? Are you relying on progressive members of the judiciary? Or would you say that the rule of law does exist in such a way that there is scope for a strong and powerful advocate like yourself?
MS. EBADI: Unfortunately, we have big problems regarding violation of human rights in Iran. Why do you think human rights in Iran have become sort of legalized, in the sense that we actually have laws that violate human rights? Iran is a signatory to the International Convention on Human Rights, both political and JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 7 commercial and (inaudible) has agreed to actually carry out these provisions. But our laws are actually against Iran's international obligation regarding these conventions and these provisions. For example, we have gender-based bias. I will give you a few examples of anti-women law in Iran.
A man can have up to four wives. Without any excuse, he can divorce his wife. But for a woman it would be very difficult and sometimes impossible to divorce her husband. The testimony of two women is as good as the testimony of one man in the court. The life of a woman is valued half as much as the life of a man in the sense that if a man and woman get into an accident, the same accident, and they are injured, the compensation that will be paid to the woman will be half the compensation that will be paid to a man. And we have all these bias laws while at the same time 63% of Iranian college students are women and, in fact, we have more educated women than men.
MS. BHABHA: Could I just ask you, given what you say, what can someone like you do within the court system? If that's what the law says, what can you do? If you're representing a woman who got 50% of the payment that her husband or her brother got, is there anything you as a lawyer can do about that?
MS. EBADI: The most important thing that we need to do is inform people both inside and outside the country about these bias laws that we have inside Iran. It is only then that we can attract the public opinion both in Iran and international opinion outside. For example, 15 years ago we carried out research by which we JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 8 realized that 70% of women, even those who are educated, did not know that if they go to court their testimony is half as good as the testimony of a man. In other words, the testimony of two women is as good as the testimony of a single man. Therefore, teaching and educating people both inside and outside Iran is the most important task that any defender of human rights and any lawyer has.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if I could ask you, you've mentioned some of the human rights issues affecting women. What would you say today were the key human rights problems in your country which affect the population as a whole? Would you be able to mention, for example, freedom of expression or the use of torture in prison or other economic and social issues which you think are particularly troublesome? What would you identify as the main human rights concerns that you have and that the international community should have concerning Iran?
MS. EBADI: The most difficult problems that Iranian women are confronting and the most urgent action that we must take in Iran is to change the laws regarding people and family. We have many anti-women laws in Iran, like under normal conditions a woman may not get involved in some of the laws pertaining to her situation. For example, while the testimony of two women is as good as the testimony of a man, we may not have a lot of cases in which a woman actually does have to go to court and testify and, therefore, realize the situation. But we shouldn't forget that usually most women get married and, therefore, become JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 9 familiar with these anti-women laws in their family life. Therefore, what we need to change and to start with is the law that pertains to family life.
MS. BHABHA: Is domestic violence a big issue in Iran?
MS. EBADI: We have a lot of domestic violence in Iran, but what is unfortunate is that a lot of times the laws actually condone such violence. I give you an example. If a man finds his wife and another man in bed, he can kill both of them without fearing any punishment. Aside from the fact that this law allows the man to be both the prosecutor and judge and decide what he should do, this law can be abused my many men. He can kill his wife and claim that he actually found her in bed with another man.
MS. BHABHA: In response to this sort of outrageous bias and discrimination, has there been a development of women's groups and women's organizations in Iran?
MS. EBADI: Since this bias and discriminatory law against women is not actually compatible with Iran's long civilization and since the number of educated Iranian women has been increasing at a rapid pace, the feminist movement in Iran is really strong. And we have many Iranian women who are after restoring their rights.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if I could ask you about two other sections of the Iranian population. We've talked a little bit about women. I want to talk to you about young people and youth. To what extent is there possibility for young JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 10 people to question the norms of the society, like young people do everywhere to raise issues, to explore different ways of being? Is that at all allowed? Or is it a situation in which young people find themselves detained, find themselves prevented from articulating their views?
MS. EBADI: Young Iranian people, women, and informed people have all questioned such law. And it is exactly for this reason that we have a lot of tension within the Iranian society. In other words, we have a clash between the tradition and modernism.
MS. BHABHA: Are there political … I mean I know there are political dissidents in Iran. How many people would you say are actually detained because of their political opinions? Would you have a figure?
MS. EBADI: Unfortunately, nobody knows the exact number of political prisoners in Iran. And the reason for it is that the government is not willing to actually announce the names of these political prisoners. And, in fact, some Iranian government officials claim that we don't even have any political prisoners. We only know about the political prisoners and their families that have actually talked to us and worked with us. But we believe that the actual number of political prisoners is much larger than what we know about, because the families of many of these political prisoners don't even dare to talk about their predicament. And I should declare here that some of the best Iranian young, some of the most JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 11 innocent, well-intentioned Iranians are in prison. And I wish them well and I hope they will be released as soon as possible.
MS. BHABHA: What I wanted to say is that we know from other societies, Argentina in particular, that families of people who have disappeared or who are tortured play an enormously important role in embarrassing, publicizing what repressive regimes do. Is there any public organization by families in Iran today like there was in Argentina with the mothers and the grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo, the famous group of women who every Thursday would wear white scarves and demonstrate in the main square? Is there any movement like this in Iran or do you see something like this developing?
MS. EBADI: We do have such a movement in Iran, but unfortunately the government does not allow an (inaudible) to be established to represent this movement. For example, (inaudible) movement or communist political dissidents who were executed in 1988 and were buried in a cemetery outside Tehran, outside the main cemetery of Tehran. Twice a year the families of these executed brave people gather at their graves to commemorate their memories. Unfortunately, they are usually attacked by vigilantes and groups connected to the military, and there is usually confrontation between the families of the executed and the paramilitary and vigilante groups. Yes, families have tried very hard to convince the government to build a memorial for the executed or at least convert it to a general cemetery so that everybody can visit it. JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 12
MS. BHABHA: The last question I wanted to ask you about Iran today concerns another issue that is very much a part of international human rights concerns, and that is the problem of HIV AIDS. Is this a problem in Iran? And, if so, what is the Iranian government doing about it?
MS. EBADI: Unfortunately, the number of people who have contracted AIDS or are HIV positive is increasing rapidly in Iran.
MS. BHABHA: Why is that?
MS. EBADI: Unfortunately, the government does not have any program for prevention and health care for this problem. Unfortunately, the reason for this is that if the government starts such a program, then it has officially admitted that there is prostitution in Iran which the government does not admit to.
MS. BHABHA: I suppose there are three groups traditionally that are particularly vulnerable in this context. One is sex workers or prostitutes. The second is drug users. And the third is the homosexual community. I presume all of these three groups are very marginal and vulnerable. So this must be a very serious problem.
MS. EBADI: Unfortunately, the number of drug users in Iran is increasing rapidly. And the age at which they start to use drugs is also becoming very low. Iran is in between Afghanistan and Europe where most of the drug is trafficked JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 13 from Afghanistan to Europe. And that has increased greatly the amount of drugs that are available in Iran and its use.
MS. BHABHA: I think John Shattuck in introducing you mentioned that you yourself have spent time in prison and, of course, prison is another place where HIV AIDS is a very worrying and dangerous phenomenon. Did you have any experiences or did you have any concerns about this in your own personal time in prison?
MS. EBADI: The worst fear that I had when I was jailed was that I would contact HIV. Because it was a very bad jail. Every (inaudible) including Iran is one of the most contaminated and infected places. And one day the jail warden was inspecting and checking on me and asked me whether I needed anything. I told him that I am HIV positive. He was very surprised and asked me whether I was telling the truth and then he started backing away. And I told him, “No, I don't actually have it. But I want to ask you, how do you know that I actually am not HIV positive?” So I asked him, “Why don't you just do a medical checkup of every prisoner that comes to the prison, so that you can learn how many HIV positive people you have in jail?” And I felt that my suggestion made the jail warden start thinking. Unfortunately, as soon as he left my cell he also forgot about my suggestion.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if we could turn to another topic. I wanted to ask you about the relationship between your commitment to human rights and to women's JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 14 rights and the fact that you are a practicing Muslim and that you work within the Islamic faith. Unlike many Iranian human rights activists who have very similar positions to you on some issues, you work, as I say, within the context of Islam. So I wanted to ask you firstly how do you see the relationship between your belief in women's rights and your religion?
MS. EBADI: The (inaudible) government in Islamic countries, in order to justify what they do, they abuse Islam. They don't have the courage to say, “We do what we like to do, we don't care about people.” And, therefore, they try to hide behind Islam. And, of course, the Islam that they talk about is the Islam that they have interpreted, and they have declared null and void any other interpretation of Islam presented by anybody else. These governments have given their people only two choices: you either accept democracy and human rights or you accept Islam. And, of course, if they don't pick Islam as they present it to them, they will be punished. We have many people in Iran who claim that Islam and democracy are not compatible because the majority of people can err, actually. Our response to them is that you are the ones who are making mistakes and erring. With the right interpretation of Islam and Islamic laws, we can be both Muslim and respect democracy and human rights.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if I could just press you on this a little bit, though. Because I certainly agree, and I think many of your critics would agree, that there is space for considerable reform within an Islamic system. But what would you say about some of the cardinal principles like the principle about marriage, for JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 15 example, that a man can have four wives? Or the Islamic position on inheritance, which is completely unequal, where inheritance favors the man two to one? How do you reconcile that with your belief in equal rights for women?
MS. EBADI: Islam, like any other religion or ideology, can be interpreted in many different ways. For example, some churches accept gay marriage, some churches don't, and they both claim to be Christian. And we also know that the same thing applies to secular ideology. For example, China and Cuba are both socialist, but they are governed by two completely different systems. Therefore, the most important thing is how you interpret a religion or ideology. Many Islamic countries have banned (inaudible).
MS. BHABHA: Can you give us some examples?
MS. EBADI: Morocco, for example. Women's rights are not the same, uniformly the same, in all the Islamic countries. In Saudi Arabia, women cannot even drive. Countries like Indonesia, Bangladesh, and Pakistan have had female presidents and prime ministers. Therefore, the fundamental question is which Islam and which interpretation. And the most important thing is a society should be governed based on democratic principle.
MS. BHABHA: I absolutely agree with you. But I wonder if I could just ask you, I think some people who are in discussion with you in a collegial disagreement would say that you are reluctant to call for a secular state, that you support the fact JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 16 that your country is a religious, the religious constitution, and that the context of the political situation is within the framework of Islam. Is it true that you actually are not interested or not calling for a secular state in your country and that you think it should stay within the framework of Islam?
MS. EBADI: I believe that governing a society or a country should be based on democratic principle. Therefore, if the majority of that country or society wants a certain thing that is what should happen. My personal belief is that church and state should be separated. But the most important point that we should remember is that separation of church and state is not anti-Islamic. And, in fact, we have many historical examples in Islamic history. What I always say is, don't abuse Islam.
MS. BHABHA: In the present situation in Iran, the Guardian Council can, in effect, censor and control all political candidates. What do you see the possibilities for reform within the current system?
MS. EBADI: Well, the greatest obstacle to democracy in Iran is the fact that the Iranian people cannot vote for anybody that they want. (Inaudible) and the direct voting of people. And, therefore, the type of elections that we have in Iran is not a one-step election, rather, a two-step election. And because of that, because the qualifications of many candidates who wanted to run for the seventh session of the Parliament in Iran were not approved by the Guardian Council. I didn't vote and I didn't participate in the election. And I declare right now that if anybody wants to JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 17 run in the upcoming presidential election, he should be allowed and free to do so. We cannot disapprove his qualifications. Otherwise, you are not going to have a free election.
MS. BHABHA: Normally, in a democracy, direct elections and the selection of candidates are one mechanism for ensuring that the will of the people manifests itself. But another very important mechanism is the judicial system and the rule of law. In Iran, as I understand it, the head of the judiciary is selected by the Supreme Leader and it is that head of the judiciary who selects the other judges. So, in a sense, the legal system as well is not likely to deliver the sorts of open judgments that will facilitate the will of the people being expressed. In that context, how can people express or challenge the current situation?
MS. EBADI: This is a very difficult question. People have been asking the same question for the past 25 years. Iranian people over the past 25 years have experienced an eight year war with Iraq and because of that, they don't want any violence or bloodshed and don't want to do anything that would lead to violence and bloodshed. And, unfortunately, the government knows this and takes advantage of it and abuses it. People are not happy with their lot. We have high unemployment. Poverty has expanded greatly. We have very limited freedom of speech in Iran. We just described what type of elections we have. Therefore, under such conditions it is natural for people to want deep reform and fundamental changes, to want what we are focusing on -- to find a non-violent way so that we can have democracy and preserve the territorial integrity of Iran. This is, of JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 18 course, a long and difficult way. But we realize that for everything there is a price. And people are paying the price for achieving democracy. And the best evidence for it is the number of political prisoners that we have.
MS. BHABHA: I wonder, having spent some time criticizing your country and the lack of democracy, whether we could turn now to the role of this country and the Bush administration in respect to Iran. And the first question I wanted to ask you is this. You're on record as having criticized the Bush Administration's foreign policy. To what extent do you think that the attitude toward Iran has made it harder for reformers in the country to develop their position?
MS. EBADI: National security is always a good excuse to put down democratic forces. When there is a foreign threat against a country, the government of that country can use the excuse of national security to jail any dissident and any voice. For example, this is what happened during the Iran-Iraq War. And, in fact, this war led to the jailing of many people and to the limiting of the democratic process. Therefore, if there is any country that wants to help Iranian democratic forces, it should know that the way to do it is not by military attack.
MS. BHABHA: To what extent has this administration been helpful to reformers within Iran?
MS. EBADI: The foreign policy of the Bush administration has been based on threats. And I already explained to you what happens as a consequence of such JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 19 threats. I believe that we should first negotiate our differences. And if we can't resolve our differences by negotiation, then the place that we should go is the United Nations.
MS. BHABHA: I believe that you yourself have had a personal experience of lack of support from the administration in connection with your desire to publish your own views and your own story. I gather, and having spoken to your agent who actually is with us today, that you took on the Bush administration, as it were, in a courageous way to open the way for freedom of expression and freedom of publication. And I wonder if you could just explain to us what happened.
MS. EBADI: I wanted to publish my personal, not political memoir in this country. And because I didn't want to lie or have self-censorship, I could not publish this book in Iran. Therefore, I decided to publish it in the United States. But I was confronted with the law as a result of US sanctions against Iran that would not allow me to publish this book. With the help of a law firm that believed in freedom of speech, we filed a suit against the American government in New York court, federal court. And I'm happy that as a result of this lawsuit, the Office of Foreign Asset Controls of the Treasury Department changed its regulation for regulating publishing foreign books in the United States that affected not only Iranian publishers, but also those in Cuba and Sudan. And let me here express my high respect for the brave American judges who respected the freedom of speech and did not allow politics to get in their way. JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 20
MS. BHABHA: I wonder if I could ask you a little bit about your views on the so- called war against terrorism. You are on record as criticizing the Bush administration's decision to attack Afghanistan. What, in your view, is the best way to address the problem of terrorism today?
MS. EBADI: Finding and punishing terrorists is, of course, legitimate. Let us ask ourselves this question. For the past 50 years, we have been capturing terrorists, putting them on trial, and punishing them. Has the problem of terrorists gone away? The answer, of course, is no. Terrorism has been increasing, in fact, all over the world. Therefore, perhaps the best way of addressing the terrorism issue is to find the root cause of terrorism and address that. The roots of terrorism are in injustice and lack of information and uneducated people. I am very sorry for what happened on September 11, 2001, and I have full sympathy for the families of the victims. And (inaudible) official statistics over 3000 people have been killed by this terrorist act. The best way to respect the memory of victims and pay homage to them may be to build as many schools in poverty-stricken areas of the world in the name of the victims of terrorists. This is the way we can respect their memory and keep their memories alive. Let me ask you this question. What has the US government done to respect the memory of the victims? One school in Sudan, in Guatemala, or in other poor countries can do a lot to respect and keep alive the memory of the loved ones that you've lost.
MS. BHABHA: I have asked you about Afghanistan. I wonder if I could now ask you briefly about Iraq. Some people have argued that the American attack against JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 21
Iraq has achieved two very valuable outcomes. Firstly, the removal from power of Saddam Hussein and, secondly, the fact that the Iraqi people have been able to hold reasonably open elections, democratic elections, for the first time for many, many years. What is your view about that?
MS. EBADI: I agree that the elections that were held in Iraq under the supervision of the United States were a positive step toward establishing a democratic system in Iraq. But the question is what was the price that was paid to achieve this first step? Over a hundred thousand civilians have been killed in Iraq. The cultural heritage, including museums, has been looted. The industrial base has been destroyed. And we all know about the security situation in Iraq whereby every day several people get killed. Couldn't we find another way, a better way, so that we wouldn't have to pay such a high price for actually being the first step?
I have a question. Was Saddam Hussein the only dictator that existed in the world? In my view, Saddam Hussein ruled a country that has a lot of oil. So the difference between him and other dictators was that he had a lot of oil but other dictatorships around the world do not have any oil.
MS. BHABHA: I know that there are many people in the audience who would like to ask you questions. So I would just like to end with a final question, if I may. Today, as you know, is Mother's Day, which is celebrated in America, and we have some families here, including my own daughter in the audience. I wonder what you would say to the younger generation, our daughters, for the future, and our JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 22 sons, for that matter. What advice would you give? What would you like them to take away from this? And if I may also add something else, because I know there are many people who are Iranian or of Iranian descent in the audience. What is the role that the exile community can play? So many young people in exile?
MS. EBADI: Let me congratulate Mother's Day to all mothers. I am grateful to you for coming here on the day that you should spend with your family and your mother. So if I am to give a few words of advice to you, I would tell you the same thing that I always tell my daughter. I would tell people, don't imitate anybody, just be yourself. Develop your own way of going about your life. Don't be afraid of making mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. What we need to do is to learn from our mistakes.
MS. BHABHA: We now have some time for questions. And I should say that a question is something that ends with a question mark, so please don't give long speeches. As you can see, there are two microphones, so what I would invite you to do, those of you who would like to ask Shirin Ebadi a question, is to line up in front of the microphone. Please tell us your name and if you come from an organization, what that organization is. And then please ask a short question. Thank you. Sir?
AUDIENCE: My name is Sam (inaudible) university. Let me say, first of all, that it's an honor to be here with Ms. Ebadi. Her actions on all our behalves we should be really grateful for. The question I have is the following. You have mentioned JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 23 that there is essentially dictatorship in Iran. We know of a dictatorship that was in Iraq. We could look in many other places in the world where there are dictatorships. You've told us that it would be valuable to educate people, to try to strive for freedom and on and on. All of those things seem to be quite compelling. My question is the following. It seems like the road to freedom, to possibilities for all human beings, is a very long one in the way you're imagining it. And while none of us wants to see war, the fact of the matter is are we willing to sacrifice generations and generations of people before fundamental change occurs? And can we be confident in the face of Iran's and other nations now possessing nuclear knowledge that we are not running a very, very difficult, great risk in waiting and not acting rather aggressively to end this terrible authoritarian situation that seems to exist there and elsewhere?
MS. BHABHA: And please take pity on the poor interpreter and make your questions as short as possible.
MS. EBADI: Of course, time is of the essence and nobody can deny it. And that's why I mentioned the role that public opinion, both public opinion and the United Nations can play. At the same time, we must realize that democracy is a culture. It is not an accident that can happen overnight. It is not a gift that you can give to a nation on a gold plate. It is a historical process that must develop and evolve. And the role of intellectuals and freedom lovers is to shorten this path as much as possible. JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 24
AUDIENCE: Good evening. My name is Steven Goode, and I'm a US history teacher here in Boston at the John D. O' Bryant School of Math and Science. I have two statements first. Number one, freedom is not free. And number two, democracy comes with a price. When I go back to my history class tomorrow, my question to you, what idea would you like me to pass on to my students? What idea would you like me to pass on to my students in relationship to the United States' relationship with Iran?
MS. EBADI: I think I partially answered this question earlier. What I do know is that military attack against Iran will disrupt the democratic process and movement in Iran. If the United States or any other country wants to help the cause of democracy in Iran, it should help NGOs and civil society organizations in Iran and other countries. In addition, what would greatly help the Iranian people is to pass on Iran's news without any exaggeration, innuendo, lies or half truths. And I ask you to tell your students the following. Establishment of democracy in Iran is our job.
AUIDENCE: Good afternoon. My name is Gloria Gonzales, and I work at Wellesley College, which is a women's college here in the area. My question to you is … First of all, I want to thank you for the remarkable role that you're taking in not only human rights but women's rights around the world. My question to you is what counsel would you give to women who, by living in societies who silence their voices, find themselves in situations where they have no voice? What advice would you give to women in those situations? JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 25
MS. EBADI: The most important thing for women is having belief in themselves. They should be convinced that they can decide their own fate. The confidence of women who live in countries in which patriarchal culture is dominating has been taken away. I believe the day a woman develops self confidence is the day that she will be free.
AUDIENCE: I'm Peter (inaudible). I'm an editorial contributor for Persian Mirror and an author who has done prison time in America last year for publishing a book. One question I would like to ask you is what is your opinion on double standards in America toward women and Iranians living in America?
INTERPRETER: Dr. Ebadi asks by double standard, you mean double standards in human rights? Or in what aspect?
AUDIENCE: Double standards in human rights and also toward members of the Iranian community. Let me give you an example. This past May you were invited to speak, to receive an honorary degree from Brown University. And you are involved in Iranian resistance work. I, too, am involved in Iranian resistance work, but the administration of Brown has repeatedly threatened to arrest me for setting foot on the property of that university, despite the pleas of several friends of mine including department heads there, including the heads of the Middle East Studies department. I sent you a letter informing you about that before your arrival there, but you still accepted that degree. Now, here we have in America a university who JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 26 gives one person who is involved in Iranian dissident work an honorary degree for the work, yet they threaten another person who is involved in dissident work with prison time.
MS. BHABHA: So you're asking Shirin Ebadi to comment on Brown University's double standards?
AUDIENCE: Oh, on double standards in general. I'm using that as an example.
MS. EBADI: I'm very sorry that I couldn't meet you at Brown University. Rest assured that if I knew you wanted to meet me or anybody else wanted to meet me, I would have made arrangements to meet you and others. And I must tell you that I am against all bias and discrimination of any type.
AUDIENCE: My name is Paul. I just want to put a plug in for global exchange in California. They run about six trips a year to Iran and they are awesome. I went a couple of years ago. My question is, and I know it's small potatoes with all the problems over there, but is anybody working or speaking out against how gays and lesbians are treated throughout the Middle East?
MS. EBADI: In Iran the punishment for a homosexual man is death. And the punishment for a homosexual woman is 100 lashes. And, therefore, homosexuality is banned by Iranian laws. And I must tell you that we don't have, unfortunately, JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 27 don't have any court NGO that defends the rights of homosexuals in Iran. There are several Internet sites that are active in this area.
AUDIENCE: My name is (inaudible). I would consider myself an Americanized Persian. I was born in Iran, came to this country at four years old in the late '60s, way before the revolution in Iran. My question to you is related to the status and the changes of the Iranian government toward other religious communities outside of Islam and, specifically, I'm interested in perhaps any changes toward the Baha'i community. As you know, the Baha'i faith has its birthplace in Iran. And this is a community that has been denied educational rights, all basic rights, forget the women issue, but even working permits. So a community that has truly been denied at every level any kind of rights. What are the changes in the Baha'i community in Iran today?
MS. EBADI: I must tell you, as you probably know, there is discrimination in Iran based on religion. According to the Iranian Constitution, the official religion of Iran is Shiite Islam. The constitution also recognizes Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism. And, therefore, this means that other religions such as the Baha'i faith are not recognized officially. And, of course, this creates discrimination, including the right to get university education for Baha'is that you mentioned. But I must also tell you that there is discrimination between Islam and those religions that have been officially recognized by the constitution. I give you an example. If a Christian passes away, his inheritance, of course, should be given according to the teaching of Christianity. But according to the law that was passed after the JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 28 revolution, even if there is one person in the family of the deceased Christian that has converted to Islam, the entire inheritance belongs to that person and even the children of the deceased do not get anything. And I must tell you that discrimination is much worse than what I just told you. For example, Tehran has a population of 12 million, and for years the Sunni Muslims have asked the government to allow them to build their own mosque in Tehran and haven't been successful. I hope that all this discrimination some day will end.
AUDIENCE: Good afternoon. My name is Elizabeth Wing. I came from China, and I'm a scientist in a local pharmaceutical company. As you just mentioned in your speech, there are many dictators in the world and maybe Saddam Hussein has the oil. So, actually, my question is related to China. Right now, actually, a lot of Chinese people, especially Chinese women, and their grand churches, the Catholics, Christians, Tibetan women and also the spiritual movement of Falon Gong women, they could not have their basic human rights as well as freedom of speech and belief. But it seems like in the world, the Western society is kind of not willing to touch this very sensitive topic because they think China is a big market, and everybody wants to invest in China and wants to share a piece of the big pancake. So I'm just trying to ask you, as today is Mother's Day, many mothers are still in jail as dissidents or spiritual movement people. As you are an international figure, what would you do to help those people, Chinese women, and really be courageous to touch this sensitive topic, although the Chinese communist regime won't be happy to see it? JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 29
MS. EBADI: I am familiar with several Chinese NGOs that defend human rights and, fortunately, they are very active also. I know that freedom of speech in China is very limited. One of the biggest things Chinese people who live outside the United States can do is inform people about the problems that they have in China. And I should also inform you that the largest … [cut in tape].
AUDIENCE: I want, first of all, as a peace activist to thank you for coming here and doing such a superb job for public education. So I'd like to thank you. For the gentleman who is translating, I'm sorry I have to refer you to as the gentleman because I think your name wasn't announced.
INTERPRETER: My name is Mohammad Sahimi.
AUDIENCE: I'd like to refer to the section with responding about the election in Iraq. I was wondering, when George Bush is advocating democracy if there was someone who was against the occupation. What is his or her name on this slate for the election? I was wondering about that. And would have won election and it did not happen. So I really wouldn't call it election in Iraq. The second thing, as a human rights activist, I'd like you to (inaudible). I think some are from television. I'd like you to address the issue of human rights of the prisoners in Guantanamo and in Abu Ghraib, the torture centers. We know about Abu Ghraib because there were cameras. I'm sure the situation is worse in Guantanamo. I would like to hear your comments. Thank you. JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 30
MS. BHABHA: While the interpreter is translating, may I just say that, unfortunately, we are running out of time. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask the people -- first of all, I'm going to ask nobody else to line up. Secondly, I'm going to ask the people at the mike to just present their questions, and I'm going to ask Shirin Ebadi to then respond to all four questions first and then to your questions, just so that we don't delay people from leaving too long.
MS. EBADI: The treatment that the prisoners have received in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prisons have been so inhuman that every NGO that is active in defense of human rights has to protest it. Even many American NGOs have protested, and I am aware that at least one of them has gone to court. When I delivered my acceptance speech for the Nobel Prize, I mentioned the condition of the prisoners in Guantanamo, and I criticized their treatment. But we should not just be dismissive of the fact that the Iraqi people actually participated in the free election that was held under the supervision of the United Nations.
AUDIENCE: It was under occupation.
MS. EBADI: Yes, Iraq was occupied, but the United Nations monitors reported that nobody used guns to force them to go to vote in a certain way. And at the same time, if you remember, I mentioned that although the first step was very positive, it has been achieved at a very high price. JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 31
MS. BHABHA: Thank you. Okay, so, if you would just ... I'm going to ask the four people who are standing there to ask their questions one after the other and then ask her to reply, in the interest of time. Please go ahead.
AUDIENCE: Hi. My name is (inaudible). I'm originally from Iran. I'm a doctoral student at the Harvard School of Public Health, and in the interest of time, I'm not going to go into detail exactly what I want. I was hoping to get a chance to hand deliver this letter to you. We heard your talk at the Harvard Kennedy School a while back, my friends and I, and it was so inspirational that we started a movement among us and we have established this women's studies group under the umbrella of Iranian studies group. And we have a project with HBO right now, and we wanted to know if you would be interested in actually learning about our project, which involves adding subtitles, Persian subtitles to a movie that tells a true story of the suffragists who fought for American women's right to vote. So we would love to get the opportunity to introduce you to this project and see if you are interested in helping us.
AUDIENCE: Good afternoon. I'm Gary Ludwig, and I wondered if you could shed any light on if there is any hope for progression and enlightenment toward democracy and human rights from within Islam by the clerics and by the theologians.
AUDIENCE: My name is (inaudible), and I'm a graduate student at MIT. My question concerns the fact that the Islamic Republic is only the latest Iranian JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 32 regime to oppress and cheat its people. And what are the underlying aspects of Iranian society or culture that allows for this weak society to be oppressed by its government and what changes are taking place at the grass roots level to address this problem?
AUDIENCE: Hello. My name is Nyla (inaudible), and I'm a doctor. My question is that we are all aware that Iran continues to find itself in the position of having to answer for allegedly pursuing nuclear options. My question to Ms. Ebadi is what is your position on nuclear non-proliferation for some but not for other countries of the world?
MS. BHABHA: We'll take the answer to these four questions, I think, in the interest of mental clarity. Sorry, we're working you very hard.
MS. EBADI: I would be happy to learn about and participate in any human rights project, especially those that are initiated by Iranians considering the limited time that I have.
The next question is whether the clerics in Iran or other Islamic countries can actually initiate steps toward democracy. I believe they can. When undemocratic Islamic governments hide behind Islam and justify whatever they do in the name of Islam, progressive clerics who are opposed to what these governments do and announce their position would give people the courage to fight such a system. For example, I already mentioned that the life of a woman is valued half as much as the JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 33 life of a man and whenever there would be any discussion regarding the issue, the government would say you are opposing Islam. But then some high-ranking ayatollah, such as Ayatollah Sanei, declared that this is un-Islamic, and man and woman should be equal in this regard. That gave people the courage to speak up.
So let me talk about why Iran has been ruled by dictators one after the other, and what we can do to change this culture. Democratic people make democracy. And people who only worship heroes and look for a hero to take care of their problem convert any democrat to a dictator. We should remember that Reza Shah, the father of the Shah, wanted to abolish monarchy and establish a republican system in Iran. But he didn't do it and became a king and, therefore, he became a dictator. Reza Shah's son, Mohammad Reza Shah, was more or less a democratic monarch at the beginning of his reign, but after the coup of 1953 Iranian people praised so much, praised him so much that gradually he became a dictator.
As long as we the people feel that there is a hero to solve our problems and address our issues, we are going to be in the same situation dealing with dictators. We should learn that we should be the hero of our own fate.
I believe, as you probably do, that humankind and no nation on earth needs nuclear weapons, including the United States, Israel, and Iran.
MS. BHABHA: Okay, we have our last three questions, please, and then we will conclude. JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 34
AUDIENCE: (inaudible).
INTERPRETER: I will repeat the question later on when Dr. Ebadi answers.
AUDIENCE: I am (inaudible). I am one of the teenagers in here right now. I don't know how many teenagers. I moved here two years ago. I was one of those teenagers who (inaudible) and tried to react about what they had done about our freedom. What I got was a (inaudible). I'm not playing soccer anymore because of my knee. I wasn't afraid what happened to me, so I just kept going, working on what I was doing. I was just going to ask, a lot of kids like me who are afraid in Iran, what they are doing and not doing anything because they are scared about their lives and what is happening to them. I was wondering what we can do to wake up those students, because I know everything happens in Iran is mostly teenagers and the college students. And I was wondering what I can do or any other student or any other person in this country or Iran or any other country, any Iranian outside of Iran or in Iran that can wake up people and tell them not to be afraid.
AUDIENCE: I'm (inaudible). I live in Boston. Would you comment on the prevalence of abortion in Iranian society, and what your position on abortion is?
INTERPRETER: The question was about the arrest of many Iranian journalists that are in jail. The question was whether Dr. Ebadi's NGO in Iran is collaborating JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 35 with international NGOs trying to free these journalists. And Dr. Ebadi started by saying that I have already discussed some of these previously.
MS. EBADI: For example, in addition to Mr. Azizzi of (inaudible) that you mentioned (inaudible) has also been arrested. Unfortunately, there are so many of these jailed journalists that I cannot mention all of them. We have established an NGO for defense of human rights in Iran, and anybody who comes to us and asks for help, we will help. Every three months we release a report in which we talk about all the political prisoners that we have been defending and release the names of all the political prisoners that we are aware of.
What Iranians outside of Iran can do to help Iran is do what they do within Iran, which is whatever information that you receive regarding Iran, first check whether it is accurate or not. And if it is accurate, pass it on to other people so that the public becomes aware of what is going on within Iran.
Don't forget, you are Iranian. Abortion is illegal in Iran unless, according to a medical doctor, legal and officially appointed doctor, the life of the mother is in danger if pregnancy is continued. In other words, if the fetus is healthy and the mother is also healthy, abortion is illegal. You asked my opinion about abortion as a defender of human rights. First, I tell you my opinion and then add something to it. In my opinion as a defender of human rights, a woman must be free to decide for herself whether she wants to have an abortion or not. But what I wanted to add was that you asked me the question and I responded to you, but I don't find the JOHN F. KENNEDY PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM A CONVERSATION WITH SHIRIN EBADI MAY 8, 2005 PAGE 36 question completely appropriate because this is a personal view. So let me ask you a question. What toothpaste did you use this morning when you brushed your teeth?
MS. BHABHA: On that note, I want to hand it over to John. But thank you both very much for a wonderful conversation.
MR. SHATTUCK: In addition to thanking Dr. Ebadi and Jacqueline Bhabha for this extraordinary forum, I also want to add my thanks to Mohammad Sahimi, who is our wonderful translator. And I'm afraid I did not introduce him beforehand and he did a terrific job. Let's hear it for him. Thank you.
Thank you all for coming. I think you've heard the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in its most personal and wonderful leadership embodiment. Thank you.