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2 Military Police Complaints Commission 3 4 5 FYNES PUBLIC INTEREST HEARINGS 6 held pursuant to section 250.38(1) of the National Defence 7 Act, in the matter of file 2011-004 8 9 LES AUDIENCES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIQUE SUR FYNES 10 tenues en vertu du paragraphe 250.38(1) de la Loi sur la 11 défense nationale pour le dossier 2011-004 12 13 14 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 15 held at 270 Albert St., Ottawa, Ontario 16 on Tuesday, April 10, 2012 17 mardi, le 10 avril 2012 18 19 VOLUME 7 20 21 22BEFORE: 23 24Mr. Glenn Stannard Chairperson 25 26Ms. Raymonde Cléroux Registrar 27 28 29APPEARANCES: 30 31Mr. Mark Freiman Commission counsel 32Ms. Dana Cernacek 33Ms. Genevieve Coutlée 34Mr. Rob Fairchild 35Ms. Beth Alexander 36 37Ms Elizabeth Richards For Sgt Jon Bigelow, MWO Ross Tourout, 38Ms Korinda McLaine LCol Gilles Sansterre, WO Blair Hart, PO 2 Eric McLaughlin, 39 Sgt David Mitchell, Sgt Matthew Alan Ritco, Maj Daniel Dandurand, 40 Sgt Scott Shannon, LCol Brian Frei, LCol (ret=d) William H. Garrick 41 WO (ret=d) Sean Der Bonneteau, CWO (ret=d) Barry Watson 42 43Col (ret=d) Michel W. Drapeau For Mr. Shaun Fynes 44Mr. Joshua Juneau and Mrs. Sheila Fynes 45 46 47 A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. © 2012 48 49 200 Elgin Street, Suite 1105 333 Bay Street, Suite 50 900 51 Ottawa, Ontario K2P 1L5 Toronto, Ontario 1 M5H 2T4 2 (613) 564-2727 (416) 861- 3 8720 1 (ii) 2 3 INDEX 4 5 PAGE 6 7AFFIRMED: ERIN BOWDEN 22 8 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Coutlée 22 9 Cross-Examination by Colonel Drapeau 50 10 Re-Examination by Ms. Coutlée 58 11 12 13AFFIRMED: CRAIG VOLSTAD 59 14 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Freiman 60 15 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Freiman 124 16 Cross-Examination by Colonel Drapeau 168 17 18 19SWORN: WARRANT OFFICER HISCOCK 174 20 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Cernacek 178 1 (iii) 2 3 LIST OF EXHIBITS 4 5NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 6 7 8P-19 Witness book index for Sergeant Bowden. 1 9 10P-20 Witness book index for Major Volstad. 1 11 12P-21 Witness book index for Warrant Officer Hiscock. 1 13 14P-22 Documents pertaining to Corporal Langridge=s PLQ course 15 in March 2007. 2 16 17P-23 Checklist, life event affecting pension annuity, pay allowances, 18 benefits or expenses. 3 19 20P-24 Operational Readiness Verification and Departure Assistance 21 Group. 3 22 23P-25 Common-law partnership application. 3 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 Ottawa, Ontario 2--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, April 10, 2012 3 at 10:08 a.m. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. 5 MS. COUTLÉE: Good morning, Mr. 6Chairman. We are going to begin by entering 7exhibits. We have the witness book index for 8Sergeant Bowden. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-19. 10 EXHIBIT NO. P-19: Witness 11 book index for Sergeant 12 Bowden. 13 MS. COUTLÉE: Witness book index 14for Major Volstad. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-20. 16 EXHIBIT NO. P-20: Witness 17 book index for Major Volstad. 18 MS. COUTLÉE: Witness book index 19for Warrant Officer Hiscock. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-21. 21 EXHIBIT NO. P-21: Witness 22 book index for Warrant 23 Officer Hiscock. 24 MS. COUTLÉE: We also have a new 25document to enter, documents pertaining to Corporal

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 2 2 3 4 5 6 1Langridge's PLQ course in March 2007. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-22. 3 EXHIBIT NO. P-22: Documents 4 pertaining to Corporal 5 Langridge's PLQ course in 6 March 2007. 7 MS. COUTLÉE: As an explanation to 8you and the parties about this document, this is a 9package of documents, at least one of which was 10identified to be very important, and this package 11was received by the Commission on Thursday 12afternoon. 13 We were advised that it was 14compiled by Warrant Hiscock in anticipation for his 15testimony today, and we have identified that some 16of the documents included are also relevant to the 17testimony of Major Volstad. 18 We provided disclosure to the 19parties by email on Thursday as soon as it was 20possible to do so. 21 We have also received three new 22documents this morning that are relevant to the 23testimony of Major Volstad. The three documents 24are checklist, life event affecting pension 25annuity, pay allowances, benefits or expenses.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 3 2 3 4 5 6 1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-23. 2 EXHIBIT NO. P-23: Checklist, 3 life event affecting pension 4 annuity, pay allowances, 5 benefits or expenses. 6 MS. COUTLÉE: Operational 7Readiness Verification and Departure Assistance 8Group. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-24. 10 EXHIBIT NO. P-24: 11 Operational Readiness 12 Verification and Departure 13 Assistance Group. 14 MS. COUTLÉE: And common-law 15partnership application. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-25. 17 EXHIBIT NO. P-25: Common-law 18 partnership application. 19 MS. COUTLÉE: As for these three 20documents, Mr. Chairman, these were included in 21documents that have been compiled by Major Volstad 22for his interview with Commission counsel in late 23January, early February. 24 These documents were requested at 25the time of the interview. They had, however, to

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 4 2 3 4 5 6 1be provided by Department of Justice counsel 2representing the witness to Department of Justice 3counsel in charge of redactions prior to being 4provided to the Commission. 5 The packages were only provided to 6the Commission at one or two weeks prior to the 7start of these hearings, and it was at that time 8that it was discovered that some documents were 9missing. Those documents were requested last week, 10and it is only this morning that these three 11documents were received, these documents that were 12in the possession of the witness at the time of the 13interview. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: The interview 15was in January? 16 MS. COUTLÉE: I don't have the 17exact date of the interview. I believe it took 18place in the last week of January, first week of 19February, so between January 30 and February 3. 20 MR. FREIMAN: Since I conducted 21the interview, Mr. Chairman, I believe it was the 22first interview I conducted. It would have been on 23the 30th. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of January? 25 MR. FREIMAN: Yes.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 5 2 3 4 5 6 1 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Mr. Chair, a 2comment, if I may. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead. 4 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: It is bad 5enough that we have given -- I speak for the 6complainants -- the minimal amount of time to 7prepare for these hearings to be receiving these 8documents not at the 11th hour, but it is really 9the 11th hour and 50 minutes, and what I am 10surprised by -- this is new information. These are 11pro forma. They are blank forms. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. They are 13which forms? 14 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: They are 15blank forms. There is nothing to be redacted from 16it. This last minute does not help us. It does 17not help us in the preparation for the hearing 18itself, and I for one want to bring to your 19attention the impact this has when we are presented 20as we walk in at the hearing with additional 21exhibits. It could be that on occasion this may 22happen, but let's not have this as the norm. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you 24referring to these forms here, the blank forms? 25 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Which we

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 6 2 3 4 5 6 1received this morning. Surely there was no 2redaction required. I have already written to the 3Commission last week or over the weekend about a 4number of redactions in a number of documents that 5I am very concerned about, because, as I said in a 6letter that I sent to the Commission, copied to my 7friend, we have taken the position which has been 8explained and certainly talked about in the opening 9comments. 10 We have gone as far as we could 11go. We haven't held anything back. We want this 12Commission to get to the bottom of it. We want it 13to have all the facts. We are on one side of the 14fence, and when I see the amount of redaction that 15is taking place -- for instance, email traffic 16between various Canadian Forces officials about an 17article written by Mr. Pugliese in the Ottawa 18Citizen. 19 I had a question myself. I said, 20"What are we redacting here? It should be part of 21the public records." I really mean the general 22public. I see that, and I see in records of 23witnesses we are going to see over the next couple 24of days entire pages and entire documents that are 25totally redacted.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 7 2 3 4 5 6 1 Of course, I have to raise an 2application: What are we missing here? And why is 3it and when is it that we are going to get 4disclosure? Not partial disclosure but full 5disclosure. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Who will be 7speaking today? 8 MS. RICHARDS: I will speak to 9this issue. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have two 11issues. The first one I want to touch on is the 12timeliness of the documents, and if you can help me 13as to documents, I take it -- when did you first 14see these documents? 15 MS. RICHARDS: I first saw these 16documents yesterday, so I haven't seen them before 17either. What I can tell you, Mr. Chairperson, is 18that the team for the Government of Canada has been 19working very hard to comply with the various 20requests for documents and to attend prehearing 21interviews that have been requested. 22 It is certainly not the intention 23or the desire of our team to provide these 24last-minute, and as Colonel Drapeau has said, it 25may be the exception. I would say to you that I

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 8 2 3 4 5 6 1think this is the exception. The team will 2continue to work very hard to provide these in as 3timely a manner as possible. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: You first saw 5them yesterday, but my understanding is -- I saw 6some documents some time ago that you kind of 7coordinate the -- whether during the interviews and 8everything else, you kind of coordinate on behalf 9of several people. 10 MS. RICHARDS: I am certainly the 11lead counsel for this team. However, as I have 12advised your counsel, we are a large team divided 13over a number of departments, so responsibility has 14been divided among the team to be able to meet the 15demands and requests for this hearing. 16 There are counsel who are 17responsible for production of the documents, and 18they don't show me the documents before they are 19produced, in the normal course. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: To ensure that 21this is the exception of the rule, what can we do 22to ensure -- we have a long way to go yet. What 23can we do to make sure that documents come in a 24more timely fashion and we don't get documents the 25day before, both for Commission counsel and for

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 9 2 3 4 5 6 1Colonel Drapeau and yourself? 2 MS. RICHARDS: Certainly. I am in 3the same position. As I say, I don't think there 4was any intention to provide these at the last 5minute. I will certainly follow up with the team. 6We are well aware of the requirement to produce 7things in as timely a manner as possible, and all I 8can tell you is that everybody is absolutely making 9their best efforts. 10 I understand that there are only a 11couple of documentary requests outstanding. What I 12would say about these is that I think that these 13came at a time when there was a great push to get 14everything to the Commission as quickly as 15possible, and I suspect these may have become lost 16in the shuffle. Not that that is an excuse, but we 17will certainly follow up and make sure it doesn't 18happen again. 19 I have spoken to the team about 20what is left, and I will definitely follow up and 21make sure that those are provided to the Commission 22as quickly as possible. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will take your 24word at that. Hopefully we can move on to the 25documents.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 10 2 3 4 5 6 1 The second question is: Colonel 2Drapeau has just raised an issue on redactions. 3Whether it is dealt with today -- you said some 4other documents, so is this an issue that is going 5to get raised later on or do you want to deal with 6it now? 7 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I can deal 8with it now in a preliminary fashion. It raised a 9question. When we are examining witnesses and we 10have documents that are presented as evidence and 11some of it is redacted, then it begs the question 12whether or not we are having the full story, a full 13ability to cross-examine witnesses, and it raises 14the possibility that we may have to recall some of 15the witnesses when we do the redactions removed. 16 The fact of the matter is that as 17we are looking at documents now, and we are into 18the second week of hearings, I am perplexed by the 19amount of redactions taking place. As I look 20ahead, I really don't understand why this hasn't 21been addressed, and I don't know if and when it 22will be addressed. 23 I will probably present you with 24something over the course of the next few days to 25address that very issue. I think direction has to

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 11 2 3 4 5 6 1be given, and if there are to be redactions, it has 2to be certainly with -- you have to be aware of it, 3and you have to ultimately decide as to the 4appropriateness of redacting some information over 5the others. 6 There will be some to protect the 7personal information of some witnesses. I don't 8have a quarrel with that. When we have full pages 9of, say, an analysis of the Board of Inquiry by an 10intermediate headquarters and all of it is blacked 11out, that information I need to have. 12 When there is significant email 13traffic over the media lines -- has been prepared 14to answer some of the allegations by Mr. and Mrs. 15Fynes, which are the same allegations we are 16looking at at the moment, obviously the Department 17and many of the officials have taken positions, 18have articulated a message, have arrived at a 19corporate position. Some of it is redacted. 20 I see no reason as to why that 21information will be excluded from our review. 22There is a time allocation to it. Time factors, I 23should say, and the sooner the better. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead. 25 MS. RICHARDS: I don't know if you

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 12 2 3 4 5 6 1want me to address that now. I don't intend to 2address at all. I certainly received Mr. Drapeau's 3letter. Some of the redactions he has raised, of 4course, go to redactions that the Commission 5counsel has applied, and as he said, some of it is 6personal information. 7 Obviously individuals before this 8Commission are entitled to fairness and due process 9and to have their personal information protected. 10 As you are also aware, Mr. 11Chairman, there are restrictions on the information 12that this Commission can receive in a hearing. In 13particular, solicitor-client information, 14information protected by other legal privileges, 15information that is either evidence that was 16considered in the Board of Inquiry or in the 17summary investigation are prohibited from being 18received by this Commission by virtue of the 19National Defence Act, so I suspect that the 20redactions that Mr. Drapeau is complaining about 21fall within those categories. They are either 22solicitor-client privilege, other privileges or the 23inquiry or summary investigation. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Freiman. 25 MR. FREIMAN: I have a number of

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 13 2 3 4 5 6 1concerns, and this is probably a good time to begin 2to discuss them. I am not sure we are going to 3resolve them today. 4 The first concern I have is that 5Commission counsel requested a while ago that DOJ 6counsel -- I am sorry. I have to refer to it this 7way because I am often not clear on whose behalf 8the representations are being made. 9 We have asked for the grounds upon 10which various redactions have been made. Just to 11be clear, the Commission itself has redacted 12personal information that would be protected under 13the protected B category. Those are the only 14redactions that have been done by Commission 15counsel. 16 I can also say that we have been 17more zealous even than Department of Justice 18counsel. In a number of instances, we found 19documents where there is personal information that 20was not suggested for redaction by the Department 21of Justice that we have, nevertheless, redacted on 22our own accord. 23 Those are unproblematic, from our 24point of view, and are unnecessary to do the work 25of this Commission.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 14 2 3 4 5 6 1 Other redactions, some are clear 2on their face to us, but we would still like for 3the record to know the basis for the redactions. 4Some are entirely mysterious to us, and we do not 5have the basis for some of those redactions. 6 I should, to be fair, say that 7there have been extensive and largely productive 8discussions between Commission counsel and counsel 9on the Justice team that are responsible for 10redactions and full production of documents. I 11want to acknowledge the good work, the cooperation, 12and the helpfulness throughout this process of 13those counsel. 14 This is not intended to disparage 15that work or the goodwill with which it has been 16approached. 17 The fact remains that for the 18redactions that still have been maintained, we do 19not have on the record the basis upon which 20Department of Justice has redacted the information, 21and that is very important to us. 22 As I say, I would imagine that for 2390 percent of the redactions I know the reason for 24it, but I shouldn't have to use my own suppositions 25as the basis for an evaluation and perhaps for

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 15 2 3 4 5 6 1submissions to you about the propriety of those 2redactions. It would be of great assistance to 3have those grounds specified. 4 I can tell you that I anticipate 5that even with that specification, there will be 6controversial documents, and there will be 7redactions with which Commission counsel does not 8agree for one of two reasons. 9 One is simply analytic, that the 10redactions don't, in fact, correspond to the 11grounds claimed for their having been made. And 12two, more centrally, I expect that there will be 13some discussions as to whether in the circumstances 14of this case, these facts, the procedural history, 15it is appropriate for either a legal or a policy 16point of view to withhold certain information, 17given the mandate of this Commission to investigate 18relevant activity or inactivity by the military 19police with respect to the investigations that were 20conducted. 21 I think it is difficult to make 22these arguments in the abstract. I would prefer if 23we had a list of the objections to various matters 24being produced; that is, the grounds for the 25redactions. I would rather have those before us.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 16 2 3 4 5 6 1 I think it may be possible in a 2meeting between Commission counsel and the 3Department of Justice counsel who are responsible 4for these matters to identify the important 5documents and to at least get some consensus or 6some indication as to the basis for the redactions, 7and that may be a more satisfactory basis for 8arguing the point. 9 I am sensitive, however, to the 10point made by Colonel Drapeau, quite correctly, 11that if we postpone this discussion, the inevitable 12consequence will be that should any of the 13objections to redactions of significant documents 14prove to be well founded, we are going to have to 15bring back witnesses, and that would be extremely 16unfortunate. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Richards, 18any comment before I -- 19 MS. RICHARDS: I would say I echo 20what Mr. Freiman has said about the collaboration 21that has gone on between members of my team and his 22team, and those collaborations continue to go on. 23 As he has said, there have been 24very productive discussions, and those discussions 25will continue, and everybody is certainly more than

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 17 2 3 4 5 6 1willing to have those discussions. 2 At the end of the day, however, 3what I would say on this issue is that 4solicitor-client privilege is not a matter of 5convenience. It is a fundamental tenet of our 6legal system, and there are certainly going to be 7issues where we fundamentally don't agree on the 8protection of solicitor-client privilege. 9 As I have often said in other 10cases I have done, there are circumstances where it 11would certainly be more convenient for the 12Government if solicitor-client privilege could be 13waived, but that is not how the privilege works. 14 It is certainly not within the 15power or control of anybody within my team to waive 16that privilege. That is a matter that rests with 17the executive. We are happy to have discussions 18with Commission counsel and see if we can narrow 19issues, but it may be, when it comes to fundamental 20issues like solicitor-client privilege, that we 21cannot reach an agreement. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: I agree with the 23fundamental issue of solicitor-client privilege but 24just want to make sure that it is properly imposed. 25 MS. RICHARDS: As I said, I

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 18 2 3 4 5 6 1understand that there have been ongoing 2discussions. Those discussions will continue. 3 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: If I may. 4To be abundantly clear, I have no quarrel when 5issues come of personal information that those be 6redacted. No quarrel at all. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't think 8anybody has any concerns about that. 9 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: No quarrel. 10I think it is well understood by any of us at these 11tables. That is not the issue. 12 But if it is to be redacted 13because a claim is being made that this information 14is of client-solicitor nature, as a minimum, we 15should specify the grounds over which that 16redaction is being made, whether it is a page or a 17sentence or a word, but I have a sense -- and time 18will tell -- that many of the redactions that we 19have so far are not client-solicitor. 20 I have alluded to traffic about an 21article written by Pugliese, and there are a number 22of them in there, and they are written by 23non-lawyers to non-lawyers. I don't see the 24client-solicitor in there. But these are redacted. 25 As a minimum, we need to have the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 19 2 3 4 5 6 1grounds upon which the redaction is being made 2asserted, and then we can object to it and have a 3discussion. That discussion has to take place as 4we interview witnesses or immediately prior to it 5so we can have an effective job of examining and 6cross-examining each witness. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you making 8an assumption that they are solicitor-client 9privilege or are they redacted for some other 10purpose? 11 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I am making 12a clear assumption they are redacted for some other 13purpose. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: As those 15documents, as we know in part of the discussions, 16those are things that should be discussed or 17documents as they come up, and then they should be 18addressed. It is hard for me to deal with the 19redactions without having full presentation on 20documentation. 21 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: And in some 22witnesses -- as my own familiarity with the file so 23far, the witnesses we saw last week and those we 24will see this week, some clients or actually some 25witnesses, for some reason, are being -- the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 20 2 3 4 5 6 1documents prepared for their testimony are being 2peppered with more redaction than others, and that 3is quite normal, so in that case, we have to do it. 4 In some of those witnesses, of 5course, the importance and the role played and the 6totality of the issues that we look at are so 7significant -- Major Lubiniecki would be a case in 8point last week. We have to know whether or not we 9have the full deck of cards. At the moment, we 10don't. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Hopefully the 12team will continue to have some discussions. I 13know I have seen some redactions that I can tell 14are personal, others that are solicitor-client, and 15others that I am really just not sure what they are 16for, but I am sure those discussions are going to 17come up as the week goes on in other documents and 18other discussions that take place. 19 Hopefully they are going to take 20place sooner than later so we don't run into this 21issue of having to recall witnesses from out of 22town again. 23 MR. FREIMAN: I would like an hour 24or two to contemplate this, but as I sit here 25today, it seems to me that knowing the witnesses

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 21 2 3 4 5 6 1that are coming this week, these are issues that 2will inevitably arise in the testimony of at least 3a couple of witnesses, one of which will be heard 4today. 5 Productive discussions I think 6will require counsel to have a bit of lead time in 7order to prepare their positions so that we can 8present you with the fullest argument possible and 9the considerations that might be relevant in 10resolving the issues before us. 11 As I say, I would like an hour to 12just contemplate the best way to set the stage for 13that, again, without wanting to be bound by this. 14 As I sit here today, it seems to 15me that given the kind of schedule that we have, it 16makes some sense to set aside an hour or an hour 17and a half on Thursday for a discussion of some of 18these issues, and maybe we can make them extremely 19concrete, because we will have at least one 20document and some topics that can centre the 21discussion. 22 What I am contemplating now is -- 23perhaps around the lunch break or after the lunch 24break -- perhaps making some suggestions that could 25guide the discussion and the issues that we would

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 22 2 3 4 5 6 1ask for comment from various counsel. Again, I 2think Thursday would be a good day. I don't 3imagine this is going to require a great deal of 4legal research. I think I know what the positions 5are that are going to be made. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Having said 7that, were you prepared to proceed? Colonel 8Drapeau? Ms. Richards? 9 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Yes, I am. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Coutlée. 11 MS. COUTLÉE: Mr. Chairman, the 12next witness is Sergeant Bowden. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. 14 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 15AFFIRMED: ERIN BOWDEN 16EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. COUTLÉE: 17 Q. Good morning, Sergeant 18Bowden. Can you first explain what your position 19was at the Lord Strathcona's Horse regiment in 202007, 2008? 21 A. At the time, my position 22within my troop was the troop leader loader, so in 23the chain of command, I was 5IC. 24 Q. Can you explain what your 25daily duties were?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 23 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. More or less, I just had the 2run of giving the troops tasking, so RSM's detail 3came up. I got to tell which one of them got that 4job or who was going to help with whatever needed 5to be done. 6 Q. Can you assist us with 7describing the position that Master Corporal 8Fitzpatrick held at the time? 9 A. At that time, he worked in 10stables. He was the stables NCO. He was under 11direct command of the RSM. All his tasking 12throughout the day came from the RSM, and he would 13look after the building, or if certain things came 14up from the RSM, he would be the one to look after 15it. 16 Say the showers were leaking. He 17was the one who would get that fixed, and if they 18needed help, that is what RSM's duty would do. 19 Q. When Master Corporal 20Fitzpatrick asked for something, was it understood 21to come directly from the RSM? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I understand that RSM is for 24Regimental Sergeant Major? 25 A. Yes.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 24 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. At the time, that was Chief 2Warrant Officer Ross? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Can you just describe for us 5what the role of the RSM is? 6 A. The RSM job is: He is in 7charge of all the NCMs in the regiment, so the 8non-commissioned members. He has various roles 9within that. Master corporal, and below is career 10manager, and he is our disciplinarian, so all the 11NCMs -- if something happens, he decides whether or 12not they are going to -- well, he okays -- if I 13want to give five extras to trooper Bloggins, he 14can say, "No, I think he deserves ten," or say a 15sergeant does something wrong, he can give extras 16or charge him or whatever. He is our 17disciplinarian, basically. 18 Q. Just for those of us who are 19not familiar with the military, can you explain 20what an extra is? 21 A. An extra is extra work and 22duty, and that is a punishment, and you have done 23something wrong, so you might have a job like 24cleaning up around the building, things of various 25natures that need to be done around the regiment

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 25 2 3 4 5 6 1anyway. It is an obvious punishment. 2 Q. Thank you. I want to take 3you back to March 7, 2008, and this day was a 4Friday, one week and one day before Corporal 5Langridge died. On that day, you received a 6request from Master Corporal Fitzpatrick. Can you 7describe the request that you received? 8 A. Yes. I was sitting in my 9office at the time, and Master Corporal Fitzpatrick 10came into the room and said, "I need a list of 11names for people for a watch on suicide for Stu," 12for Langridge, and I said, "All right. Did you 13want the names now?" He said, "No. Send them by 14email so I can let them know what their shift is." 15 Q. When Master Corporal 16Fitzpatrick requested this from you, did he explain 17exactly what the soldiers would be doing? 18 A. I don't recall now, but 19reading my testament from four years ago, it said 20they would be doing 12-hour shifts, and they would 21just be, I guess, hanging out with Langridge. 22 Q. Did Master Corporal 23Fitzpatrick tell you how long the watch was 24supposed to last for? 25 A. I really don't remember.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 26 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. Just to assist you here, I 2will take you back to the transcript for your 3interview with the NIS. That is tab 4 of your 4document book, page 19. You can have a look at the 5bottom of the page, beginning at line 21. 6 A. It says "starting today for 7the watch," so that would be the Friday and 8continuing all weekend. 9 Q. To your knowledge, have there 10been similar watches in the past at the regiment? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Can you tell us what you know 13about those? 14 A. I know some guys were on 15shifts to basically hang out with a guy and make 16sure he was all right. I have never done one, so I 17don't know specifically. 18 Q. Were you told by Master 19Corporal Fitzpatrick where the suicide watch on 20Corporal Langridge would take place? 21 A. I think he said the duty 22centre. 23 Q. After you received that 24request, you put the list together, and then what 25did you do?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 27 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. Then I sent it to Master 2Corporal Fitzpatrick. 3 Q. You sent it in what format? 4 A. Email. 5 Q. Do you recall how many names 6were on the list? 7 A. I believe at that time it was 8my troop, so it would probably be -- honestly, I 9don't remember. I am speculating here. I think it 10was nine or ten guys. 11 Q. What did you say in the email 12to Master Corporal Fitzpatrick? 13 A. I said, "Here are the names 14for the list," and I even said, "If there are any 15issues, let me know." 16 Q. Did the email mention the 17words "suicide watch," either in the title or in 18the body? 19 A. Yes, it was in the title of 20the email. 21 Q. Did you advise the soldiers 22in your troops that this duty was coming up? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What did you tell them? 25 A. I said, "Be prepared. It

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 28 2 3 4 5 6 1looks like there are going to be shifts all 2weekend, so be prepared to be on that." 3 Q. Did you tell them what it was 4for? 5 A. I don't recall. Is it in 6here? 7 Q. Yes. I believe it is on page 827. Sorry. Page 20 probably has more detail. 9 A. It says I didn't specifically 10tell them. I just said "watch," but they all knew 11what it was for. 12 Q. Can you explain how they all 13knew what it was for? 14 A. Secrets of that nature are 15not well kept. In a group of a regiment, it is 16like a community, so everyone knows everyone's 17business. 18 Q. What was it that your 19soldiers knew that would tell them what this watch 20was for? 21 A. They knew that Langridge had 22just gone to the U of A a few days prior, because 23some of my troops were the ones who took him down, 24so they knew he had suicidal tendencies. 25 Q. Did you advise your

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 29 2 3 4 5 6 1supervisor about this? 2 A. Yes. I let Warrant Jones 3know that the troops' names were going on the list. 4 Q. After you sent the email, 5what happened next? 6 A. As it says in here, I let the 7troops know, and then I went for lunch. I am 8guessing you want me to expand on that. 9 Q. I would like you to tell us 10what happened when you returned from lunch. 11 A. When I returned from lunch -- 12I had an appointment, so it was about 1:30. I ran 13into Master Corporal Fitzpatrick. He said, "Erin, 14what did you do?" I said, "What do you mean?" He 15said, "The RSM is looking for you." 16 At which point, maybe a minute 17later, I ran into the RSM. He was at the duty 18centre, and he asked me -- he held up the email and 19said, "Did you write this?" I said, "Yes, sir." 20He said, "Who gave you the authority to use the 21word 'suicide'?" I said, "No one, sir." 22 He said, "All right. Go up to my 23office and wait for me up there. I will have a 24chat with you." 25 Q. What happened next?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 30 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. I went up there and waited 2patiently. 3 Q. How long did you wait? 4 A. I waited 20 minutes for him. 5 Q. Were you waiting at 6attention? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Then what happened? 9 A. He came in and sat down, and 10he said, "Master Corporal Bowden, who authorized 11you to use the word 'suicide'?" And I said, "No 12one, sir," and he said, "Who asked for this email?" 13I told him Master Corporal Fitzpatrick, and he 14said, "Did Master Corporal Fitzpatrick use the word 15'suicide'?" I said to the best of my recollection, 16yes, but without trying to blame Master Corporal 17Fitzpatrick. 18 Q. What else did the RSM say? 19 A. I know he asked me to play my 20pipes at the end, but I don't think that is what 21you are going for. I don't remember after that. 22 Q. Do you remember what the tone 23of the conversation was like? 24 A. Yes. It was boss to junior. 25 Q. Was the RSM angry?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 31 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you get an understanding 3of why he was angry? 4 A. Honestly, yes, because I used 5the word "suicide." Other than that, I couldn't 6guess what was going on in his head. 7 Q. In terms of the content of 8the conversation, just to assist in refreshing your 9memory, if you want to turn to tab 4, page 30 to 1031, beginning at the bottom of page 30, you are 11recounting what you have already told us about no 12one giving you authority, and on the next page, you 13are recounting the rest of the conversation. 14 A. Yes, I said it was supposed 15to be a conversation purely between myself and 16Master Corporal Fitzpatrick. No one was CCed on 17that email. It was just, as I said, supposed to be 18between the two of us. I further said -- he said, 19"Well, how did Langridge find the email?" I said, 20"I really don't know, sir." 21 Q. What else did he tell you 22about the fact that Corporal Langridge found the 23email? 24 A. He said that once Corporal 25Langridge found it, he was upset by it and didn't

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 32 2 3 4 5 6 1want it, so at that point, I said, "All right, 2sir," and he told me he would talk to me later 3further about it. It just never happened. 4 Q. You mean he never talked to 5you about it again? 6 A. No, it was never brought up. 7 Q. What happened to the watch? 8 A. At that point, the watch was 9pretty well at its end because Corporal Langridge 10didn't want it. I waited around until 4:30 that 11day just to make sure. I didn't want to burn any 12more bridges. I had my guys wait with me. 13 Q. Do you recall when you were 14told that the watch was at an end? 15 A. I got the official ending to 16it at about 4:30. 17 Q. Who told you? 18 A. Master Corporal Fitzpatrick. 19 Q. What did he tell you? 20 A. I asked him, "Is it on?" He 21said, "No, the RSM has --" I think I said canned 22it or something. 23 Q. As far as the email that you 24wrote to Master Corporal Fitzpatrick, just as 25clarification, was the list that you sent in the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 33 2 3 4 5 6 1body of an email or as part of an attachment to an 2email? 3 A. It was in the body of the 4email. 5 Q. Did the RSM have a copy of 6the email when he spoke to you? 7 A. He held up a paper copy in 8his hand, at which point -- when he asked me at the 9duty desk who gave me authority, he ripped it up in 10front of me. 11 Q. Was it your understanding 12that this copy was also the copy that was found by 13Corporal Langridge? 14 A. As far as I knew, Corporal 15Langridge had printed off this copy himself. 16 Q. Can you tell us what you know 17about that? 18 A. I talked to Master Corporal 19Fitzpatrick, and he said that when he got the 20email, he took the word "suicide" out and printed 21off the copy without the word "suicide," so the 22version that the RSM had had, Langridge had printed 23off himself. 24 Q. Did Master Corporal 25Fitzpatrick tell you why he did that?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 34 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. Corporal Langridge? 2 Q. No, why Master Corporal 3Fitzpatrick took out the word "suicide" from his 4copy. 5 A. He said he didn't want it on 6there for everyone to read. I said that is fine. 7 Q. Did Master Corporal 8Fitzpatrick ever show you the copy of the email 9without the word "suicide"? 10 A. I don't think so. 11 Q. After all this, what happened 12to the email? Was it still in your Outlook? 13 A. After I had my chat with the 14RSM, I went to my email, and I erased it as soon as 15possible. 16 Q. Did you do that on the same 17day this happened? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you tell the RSM or 20Master Corporal Fitzpatrick about deleting that 21email? 22 A. No, it was never brought up. 23 Q. After Corporal Langridge 24died, did anybody ask you to retrieve that email? 25 A. It would have been

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 35 2 3 4 5 6 1unretrievable because emails stay retrievable for 2about a month after you erase them, but there was a 3two-to-three-month gap between that, so it wouldn't 4have been retrievable. 5 Q. A two-to-three-month gap 6between what? 7 A. Between erasing an email and 8our techies being able to retrieve it. 9 Q. So you are telling me that 10for about two to three months after you deleted the 11email, it would have been retrievable? 12 A. No, only for one month. 13 Q. One month. All right. This 14happened on March 7. Corporal Langridge died just 15over a week later. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did anybody ask you after he 18died to retrieve the email? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Would it have been 21retrievable at that time? 22 A. Probably. 23 Q. When was the first time 24anyone asked you to retrieve that email? 25 A. The first time I heard about

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 36 2 3 4 5 6 1it was when NIS called me and asked me to bring it. 2 Q. Do you recall when that was? 3 A. About a day before my 4interview. 5 Q. Do you recall when that was? 6 A. I recall because it is at the 7front of the book. May 5, 2008. 8 Q. May 5, 2008, was your 9interview, and the call you received from the NIS 10was shortly before? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What did the NIS investigator 13tell you during that call? 14 A. He asked if my name was 15Master Corporal Bowden. I said yes. He told me he 16was doing an investigation, and if I could please 17bring down the email that I had done for suicide 18watch, at which point I told him, "No, I have 19erased it." 20 Q. Was any further follow-up 21ever done with you by the NIS about this email? 22 A. Yes. He asked me if I could 23look into having it retrieved somehow, maybe call 24408 or 742 Squadron and ask if they could, and they 25told me it was too long. They don't keep things on

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 37 2 3 4 5 6 1the drive that long. 2 Q. Did the NIS investigator ever 3call you back to find out whether you were able to 4retrieve the email? 5 A. I do not believe so. 6 Q. You told us before that it is 7difficult to keep a secret in the environment of 8the regiment and that there was some knowledge 9about Corporal Langridge's condition. 10 Could you first tell us about the 11trip to the hospital that you mentioned? 12 A. I believe it was a few days 13before I put this email out. One of my guys and 14another guy from Headquarters Squadron were tasked 15to go with Stu down to the U of A. He was hoping 16to be admitted there, so they were going to give 17him a ride down, make sure he was all right, and 18come back to the base. They waited, I believe, ten 19hours before Stu got turned away. 20 Q. Do you recall why Corporal 21Langridge wanted to go to the hospital at the time? 22 A. No, I do not. I think he 23just -- no, I don't. 24 Q. If you want to turn to pages 2522 to 23 of the transcript of your interview, that

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 38 2 3 4 5 6 1is tab 4. 2 A. It says he was trying to be 3readmitted because he knew he was at high risk. 4 Q. Can you explain that? 5 A. Honestly, no, I can't 6remember from back then, exactly. 7 Q. When you mentioned high risk, 8high risk for what? 9 A. Suicide. I knew Stu had had 10a couple of previous attempts, and I believe that 11is why he wanted to go back in. 12 Q. Were you personally close 13friends with Corporal Langridge? 14 A. No. 15 Q. How would you describe your 16relationship to him? 17 A. Hallway acquaintances. 18 Q. You said that you knew that 19he had attempted suicide in the past. Can you tell 20us what you knew about that? 21 A. At that time, I knew he had 22at least two attempts because he had already been 23admitted to the U of A at least once. And as it 24says in here, I had seen the scars on his arm 25during PT one time, and I knew what they were, but

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 39 2 3 4 5 6 1he kept them pretty hidden. 2 Q. Had you heard about an 3attempt involving pills? 4 A. I don't remember then if I 5had. 6 Q. Had you heard about an 7attempt involving a car? 8 A. I believe so. 9 Q. This information that you had 10about the various attempts, where did that come 11from? 12 A. Talk around the regiment. 13 Q. If you want to turn to page 1436 of your transcript, if you want to look at lines 1512 and 13, it states here, and these are your 16words, "So we knew about his previous attempts. 17The whole regiment did." 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Is that an accurate 20description of what the situation was? 21 A. Yes, it is an accurate 22description. I am sure not every single person 23knew, but the majority did. 24 Q. Had you heard of other 25watches being conducted for Corporal Langridge in

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 40 2 3 4 5 6 1the past? 2 A. Yes. I just recalled 3recently that there had been one that never went 4through. 5 Q. Do you recall about when that 6was? 7 A. The previous Christmas. 8 Q. Can you tell us what you know 9about that? 10 A. Just what I vaguely recall, 11and that was that there was one set up for whatever 12reason, and it never went through because somebody 13took Stu in to live with him for Christmas. 14 Q. What had been set up? 15 A. A suicide watch was basically 16shifts, as I stated before. Guys were going to 17spend time with him, make sure he had somebody 18around him, and I believe the purpose of that was 19so he could have somebody to talk to. 20 Q. Am I understanding correctly 21that this didn't take place because instead 22somebody took him in? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Were there any other suicide 25watches that took place for Corporal Langridge?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 41 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. Not that I know of. 2 Q. I will just direct you to 3page 54 of your transcript for you to assist us 4with that reference. At lines 2 and 3, you mention 5that there had been other watches for him. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you recall what you were 8referring to at the time? 9 A. Probably the one about 10Christmas. That is the only other one that I am 11aware of. 12 Q. On March 7, when you were 13asked to compile the list for suicide watch, was 14Corporal Langridge already being watched by 15someone? 16 A. I believe I said in here that 17yes, there was somebody who had already been 18sitting with him. At this time, I don't remember. 19 Q. Where was this person sitting 20with Corporal Langridge? 21 A. They were sitting in the back 22room of the duty centre watching TV. 23 Q. What was your understanding 24of the situation during the last week of Corporal 25Langridge's life?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 42 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. Could you expand a little 2more? 3 Q. Was he on a suicide watch? 4 A. No, because he didn't want 5it. 6 Q. Was he on defaulters? 7 A. No, he was in no trouble. 8 Q. Where does that information 9come from? How is it that you know that he wasn't 10on defaulters? 11 A. I know he wasn't on 12defaulters because if you are on defaulters, it is 13publicized in the regiment, and there is also a 14drill that comes up every morning. Stu wasn't in 15any trouble, so there was no drill. 16 Q. Was he living in the 17Defaulters' Room? 18 A. I believe he was at that 19time. 20 Q. As far as the fact that there 21was no suicide watch, where does that information 22come from for you? 23 A. That was from when the RSM 24said that suicide watch was no longer happening. 25 Q. Were you aware of the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 43 2 3 4 5 6 1conditions that were imposed on Corporal Langridge 2during the last week of his life? I will have you 3refer to tab 2, simply for you to just tell us 4whether you were aware of these conditions in any 5way at the time. 6 A. No, I wasn't. 7 Q. On the day when Corporal 8Langridge died, on March 15, 2008, I understand 9that you saw him briefly? 10 A. Yes. I was standing by the 11duty centre waiting for the bus to take me to 12Hayakaze's funeral. He was wearing civilians and 13standing very relaxed at the duty centre, joking 14around with the guys in there. 15 Q. Did you have any interactions 16with Corporal Langridge at the time? 17 A. I believe we nodded. 18 Q. How would you describe 19Corporal Langridge's general demeanour on that day? 20 A. He was very relaxed. I 21overheard him joking around with some of the guys, 22and he seemed more himself than he had in a while. 23 Q. How was he different from 24before? 25 A. As I said, he was relaxed,

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 44 2 3 4 5 6 1making jokes. He didn't seem like he was stressed. 2 Q. How was he before? 3 A. Like something was concerning 4him. 5 Q. How did you learn about 6Corporal Langridge's death? 7 A. We were coming back from the 8funeral, and I saw the trucks there and managed to 9put two and two together, and I found out because 10Corporal Hurlburt, who was the individual who found 11him, was my troop, and as his chain of command, he 12had to let me know what was going on. 13 Q. When did Corporal Hurlburt 14let you know? 15 A. Just after I got in, so well 16after the fact. 17 Q. When you say "well after the 18fact," you mean the same day? 19 A. The same day, yes, within an 20hour or two, I guess. 21 Q. Before he told you, did you 22know already that it was Corporal Langridge? 23 A. I didn't know for sure. 24 Q. You suspected it? 25 A. Yes.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 45 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. Why? 2 A. I knew that Corporal 3Langridge had been a high risk for suicide because 4of his previous attempts and going to U of A, and 5then I saw the trucks over at the barracks. 6 Q. Do you recall any comments 7being made by others in the troops when you saw the 8emergency vehicles? 9 A. I think somebody might have 10said -- I don't remember now, but I remember 11reading it in here, something about, "It should be 12Langridge," and someone saying, "Shut up. That is 13not nice." 14 Q. When you say you remember 15reading it in here, you mean the transcript for 16your own interview with the NIS? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That interview took place a 19few weeks after Corporal Langridge's death? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you have discussions with 22others at the regiment after Corporal Langridge's 23death about his death and about him? 24 A. Yes. I talked to the duty 25sergeant on that day, Sergeant Hiscock -- Warrant

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 46 2 3 4 5 6 1Hiscock now. He was concerned about it, and he 2just needed somebody to talk to. We were 3acquaintances, friends, at that time, so I 4listened. 5 Q. Do you recall what he told 6you? 7 A. Not the exact wording. Could 8you tell me the page? 9 Q. If you want to turn to pages 1045 and 46 of tab 4 of your interview transcript, it 11begins at line 21 on page 45. 12 A. It says he felt bad that he 13let him go do laundry and that he should have sent 14somebody with him. At that time, there was 15Hayakaze's funeral going on, and there was a large 16number of cadets who were in the building, and 17teenagers like to run. The duty staff had their 18hands full, so they figured Stu going to do laundry 19wasn't a big deal. He wasn't in trouble, so -- at 20that time, I guess Sergeant Hiscock felt very bad 21for it. 22 Q. He felt bad about allowing 23him to go alone? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you speak to anyone else?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 47 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. Not that I recall. 2 Q. Do you recall having any 3discussions with Master Corporal Fitzpatrick? 4 A. Yes. He felt bad, too, at 5the time. 6 Q. Do you recall what about? 7 A. He felt bad because he felt 8he should have been watching, but at the same time, 9he had those exact things he had to deal with, too. 10 Q. Did you ever have 11conversations after Corporal Langridge's death with 12Master Corporal Fitzpatrick or the RSM about that 13email incident about the suicide watch? 14 A. No. 15 Q. In your interview with the 16NIS, you discussed the issue of whether the 17military did all they could for Corporal Langridge. 18You indicated that you thought they did and that 19the regiment gave him a lot of support. 20 Can you describe your knowledge of 21the efforts that were being made by the military 22for Corporal Langridge? 23 A. Yes. As far as I knew, Stu 24had been given help with mental health, and the 25regiment had allowed him to choose his squadron

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 48 2 3 4 5 6 1that he was going to, to help bring him back into 2the fold. 3 That is a luxury almost none of us 4are given. They let him have half days and take 5off whatever time he needed for appointments. 6Again, not usually luxuries we are given. 7 Q. Where does your knowledge 8about these things come from? 9 A. During the interview, I 10couldn't remember, but since then, I briefly recall 11a group of us were talking to Stu, and he mentioned 12it. 13 Q. Do you recall other 14discussions amongst the soldiers about these 15things? 16 A. Vaguely. 17 Q. If you want to turn to tab 4, 18page 53, I want to direct your attention to -- 19beginning at line 12, you were discussing what the 20military can do, and you are commenting, "We can 21only do so much. We are the military," and you are 22mentioning they are building a new hospital for 23people with PTSD. 24 A. Yes (inaudible). 25 Q. You are saying in there that

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 49 2 3 4 5 6 1it is going to come a couple of years too late for 2Stu, obviously, but that it would have been handy. 3 A. It would have been, yes. 4 Q. Can you explain why you feel 5this would have been helpful for Corporal 6Langridge? 7 A. At the time, the practice of 8hospital for PTSD -- it would have been handy 9because Stu would have been around other people 10suffering from it. He probably would have been 11admitted to that, where he wasn't at U of A. 12 Q. In terms of your descriptions 13that you have given us about the efforts that were 14being made, what was your understanding of what was 15required in the circumstances? 16 A. I am not sure what you mean. 17 Q. Did you have an understanding 18as to what measures were required in Corporal 19Langridge's circumstances? 20 A. As far as I knew, all that 21was really required of the army was to get him help 22with mental health, and because he had a drug 23problem, to get him counselling for drug and 24alcohol abuse. 25 Q. You mentioned that you were

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 50 2 3 4 5 6 1interviewed by the NIS, and we have discussed the 2date. That was May 5, 2008. Did you have any 3other interviews for other investigations into this 4matter? 5 A. Not until mention of the 6Commission came up. 7 MS. COUTLÉE: Thank you. Those 8are my questions. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 10Colonel Drapeau. 11CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: 12 Q. Good morning, Sergeant. 13 A. Good morning, sir. 14 Q. A few questions for you. To 15whom did you report in 2007-2008? Who was your 16boss? 17 A. My direct boss would have 18been Master Corporal Caulfield, then Sergeant Clark 19(ph), then Warrant Jones. 20 Q. That was your chain of 21command? 22 A. Yes, then Lieutenant Dwyer, 23and that was the end of my troop. 24 Q. Who wrote your performance 25evaluation report?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 51 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. I believe Warrant Jones did 2that year. 3 Q. Reviewed by? 4 A. Lieutenant Dwyer, Captain 5Dwyer. 6 Q. Based on your training -- you 7are a sergeant. I notice you have the horses 8decoration. You have been in for a while. Chain 9of command. What does it mean to you? 10 A. Chain of command, to me, 11means that -- it is the people I directly report to 12or who give me orders. They are the people who 13look after my best interests or, going down the 14chain of command, the people whose best interests I 15look after. 16 Q. Are you expected to follow 17the chain of command when you want to get something 18done or report to someone? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. When the chain of command 21asks you to do something, you take this as what? 22As a wish? As a directive? As an order? 23 A. As an order. 24 Q. When you were asked to go to 25the RSM office, did you have any choice in the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 52 2 3 4 5 6 1matter? 2 A. You always have a choice. 3The choice is: You go or jail. 4 Q. And you don't want to go to 5jail? 6 A. No. 7 Q. In your testimony, if I could 8take you to page 11, tab 4, you said one of your 9troopers, Corporal Hurlburt, found Stuart? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You would have had a short 12discussion with him. He must have been disturbed 13and certainly emotionally disturbed by what he saw. 14Correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What kind of conversation did 17you have? What did he report to you? 18 A. He came up to me and said 19that he had been sent over -- I don't recall his 20exact words, but the general feel of the 21conversation was that he had gone over to pick up 22Langridge. He had walked into Langridge's room and 23found him hanging, at which point called the MPs 24and then called the duty centre. 25 Q. Did he tell you any more

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 53 2 3 4 5 6 1about -- was there a suicide note, for instance? 2Did that subject come up? 3 A. No. 4 Q. In the hours following? The 5days following? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You are told by the RSM, "Go 8to my office." 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. If I read your testimony 11correctly to the NIS on the 5th of May 2008, he 12told you, "Go to my office and stand to attention." 13Is that right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You stood at attention where? 16In his office? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. For? 19 A. Twenty minutes. 20 Q. When he came in, he sat down 21and basically asked you -- were you still at 22attention when you spoke to him? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you feel you had a 25choice?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 54 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. It is the RSM's office, and I 2wasn't a senior NCO, so no. 3 Q. You do as you are told? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. No doubt in your mind? 6 A. No. 7 Q. If you go to page 36 of your 8testimony, at line 4 -- just tell me when you are 9there. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just for the 11record, not of her testimony. It is of -- 12 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Her 13interview with the NIS. I am sorry. I misspoke. 14 Q. Are you there? 15 A. I am there. 16 Q. You use the words "gossip 17mill." 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You talk about (inaudible) 20regiment, someplace else that you served with the 21PPCI, did you not, before that? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You did not, but you served 24in other units. You served in Reserves? 25 A. I served in the Reserves.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 55 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. You have quite a bit of 2service, and you served in various land forces. 3The gossip mill, was that something unique to the 4LDSH? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Was it any better or any 7worse there? 8 A. No. Honestly, it was just 9the same. 10 Q. How effective was the gossip 11mill? Would you know within hours of things 12happening? Would you know the details, the names? 13 A. As a gossip mill, it was 14effective, I guess. You would know the general 15details, and just like any gossip mill or telephone 16game, the details get changed in the telling. 17 Q. Later on, at line 13, you 18talk about the whole regiment. Was that only 19non-commissioned officers that were part of this 20gossip mill, as far as you know? 21 A. I don't have too much 22interaction with officers, so I am going to say yes 23it was just NCMs. 24 Q. Would the RSM as an NCM be 25part of this gossip mill?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 56 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. No. 2 Q. Would he be aware of what the 3(inaudible) were saying? 4 A. No, the RSM doesn't tend to 5hang out with us. 6 Q. People at your rank level at 7the time, master corporals or sergeants, you would 8have some information through the gossip? 9 A. Master corporals and below 10are junior NCMs. As junior NCMs, you don't gossip 11with senior NCOs. When I said the whole regiment, 12I probably was talking about all the junior NCMs. 13 Q. Which is more than 50 percent 14of the whole regiment. Right? 15 A. I have no idea. 16 Q. If you go to page 74 of your 17interview with the NIS, at line 11, when I read 18this, first I smiled, and second, I wondered what 19you meant by it. 20 What do you mean by, "In our 21regiment, your learn to cover your ass." What do 22you mean by this? 23 A. I meant that you learn to 24look out for yourself. 25 Q. Which means what? Aren't

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 57 2 3 4 5 6 1your leaders supposed to be looking after you? 2 A. Yes. Your question is? 3 Q. The question is: What do you 4mean by having to cover your behind? You put it on 5emails or you report it to your chain of command? 6What steps do you do? 7 A. You keep detailed records 8about yourself, so in case something happens, it is 9not hearsay. It is not your word against somebody 10else's. 11 Q. My last question is: Based 12on what you know, and despite the fact that four 13years have gone since Stuart passed -- I am asking 14for your opinion. Today, do you think it was a 15good thing to have a suicide watch cancelled or 16forgotten? Or should it have taken place? 17 A. Honestly, I couldn't tell 18you. That is delving into Stu's mind, and I can't 19do that. 20 Q. But delving into your mind, 21would a suicide watch have played a useful role in 22perhaps (inaudible) it? 23 A. Honestly, I couldn't tell 24you. There are lots of things I think could have 25saved Stu, but whether or not that was one of them,

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 58 2 3 4 5 6 1I don't know. 2 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Thank you. 3 MS. MCLAINE: I don't have any 4questions. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Any re-exam? 6RE-EXAMINATION BY MS. COUTLÉE: 7 Q. Just one question in 8follow-up. You mentioned the importance of keeping 9traces of what you have done so that you know who 10is responsible for what. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. After you wrote that email 13and had your conversation with the RSM, was it your 14understanding that you were expected to delete that 15email that you had written? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Was it your understanding 18that you weren't supposed to have written that 19email? 20 A. At the time, my train of 21thought was that I knew I had done something wrong, 22and I did not want any reminders that I had messed 23up. 24 Q. That was the reason you 25deleted it?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 59 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. Yes. It was nothing 2malicious, just -- I was new. 3 Q. Do you think that had he 4learned about your deleting it, do you think the 5RSM would have been unhappy? 6 A. Honestly, I could not tell 7you. 8 MS. COUTLÉE: Thank you. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: If there is 10nothing further, I believe this concludes the 11testimony from this witness. I want to thank you 12very much for your testimony today. I don't 13believe there will be a need, but should need be in 14the future, I am sure we will be in touch. Thank 15you for your testimony and your service. 16 If we want to take ten minutes, 17and then we can have a little bit of a health break 18and go with the next witness. Thank you. 19--- Recess taken at 11:18 a.m. 20--- Upon resuming at 11:34 a.m. 21 MR. FREIMAN: Our next witness is 22Major Craig Volstad. 23AFFIRMED: CRAIG VOLSTAD 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, 25Major.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 60 2 3 4 5 6 1 THE WITNESS: Sir. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Considering 3where we are at in terms of time, we will go as far 4as we can, and Mr. Freiman will conclude his 5examination before lunchtime, but we will see how 6the timing goes. 7EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. FREIMAN: 8 Q. Good morning, Major. Can you 9help us this morning by filling us in on your 10background in the military, your training, and your 11current position? 12 A. My current position? 13 Q. Take us through your career, 14ending with the current position. 15 A. I joined the military in 161993, the south (inaudible) as a reservist. After 17two years, I joined the regular force. 18 I went to the Royal Military 19College of Canada for four years. I graduated with 20a computer engineering degree. From there, I took 21my commission and joined the Lord Strathcona's 22Horse Royal Canadians in Edmonton. I served four 23years there, and then I was posted to the Armour 24School in Gagetown, New Brunswick, where I served 25as an instructor for three years prior to going

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 61 2 3 4 5 6 1back to the regiment, where I served for another 2three years. 3 Q. Let's talk about the relevant 4time period between the winter of 2007 and the 5spring of 2008. What was your position? 6 A. I was the second in command 7of Headquarters Squadron at the Lord Strathcona's 8Horse Royal Canadians. 9 Q. Let's talk about that for a 10moment. First of all, what is the Headquarters 11Squadron, and what is its role within the regiment? 12 A. Headquarters Squadron is 13there to provide support to the other squadrons, 14both in the field and in garrison. 15 Q. I understand that at least 16with this Headquarters Squadron -- it may be 17different with others -- Headquarters Squadron does 18not deploy. 19 A. For Afghanistan, Headquarters 20Squadron did not deploy. Headquarters Squadron 21definitely deploys during exercise and operations. 22However, for the operations being conducted in 23Afghanistan, this Headquarters Squadron did not 24deploy. 25 Q. You have told us a little bit

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 62 2 3 4 5 6 1about the role of Headquarters Squadron as an 2administrative and support unit for the regiment. 3Are you in a position to tell us the composition of 4Headquarters Squadron in terms of deployable, 5non-deployable members? 6 A. If I understand the question 7you are asking, you want to know whether they are 8suitable to deploy or not? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Based on the climate that was 11going on at that time, because the Strathconas were 12sending over squadron after squadron consecutively, 13what was happening is that some soldiers were being 14cycled through Headquarters Squadron in order to 15give them a break or to get them healthy. 16 In a lot of cases, soldiers did 17come to Headquarters Squadron who were not capable 18of deploying. 19 Q. You have told us some of the 20reasons why they might not be capable of deploying, 21and the one that you started with was that they 22were returning from deployment and needed some rest 23before they could be deployed again. What were 24some of the other reasons why members of 25Headquarters Squadron might not be deployed?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 63 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. There could be family or 2personal reasons. There could be injuries. They 3could be awaiting training issues, just to give 4them a chance to prepare for training or do 5training so they are not actually being taken away 6from the fighting troops. And they could actually 7be there because of unfit for deployment. 8 Q. Before we get to Corporal 9Langridge and his role at Headquarters Squadron, 10you told us you were the 2IC, the second in 11command. What is the role of the 2IC specifically 12at Headquarters Squadron? 13 A. I am the second in command, 14so I am responsive to the officer commanding. I am 15responsible for the operational side of the house 16with regard to the squadron, but I also oversee the 17administration officer responsible for all the 18administration within that squadron. 19 Q. Let's talk for a moment about 20Corporal Langridge and his membership in 21Headquarters Squadron. 22 We know that in March 2007, 23Corporal Langridge was sent home from a PLQ 24exercise complaining of anxiety-related symptoms, 25and we also know that subsequently, in May 2007,

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 64 2 3 4 5 6 1Corporal Langridge appears to have failed a 2compulsory urine test, and cocaine was found in his 3urine. 4 Would either the one or the other 5or both be a sufficient reason to transfer Corporal 6Langridge to HQ Squadron? 7 A. That decision was made by 8leadership, but based on my experience, that would 9be a reason to move to Headquarters Squadron. 10 Q. One or the other or both? 11 A. It would be reason enough to 12move him out of his current squadron. I think that 13would be the most important thing. 14 Q. Let's talk about them one at 15a time. One was the experience of anxiety-related 16symptoms in a leadership course that he was taking 17and being sent home from that. Would that be 18sufficient to transfer him to a non-deployable 19status? 20 A. That would have to be looked 21at very closely by the leadership and the officer 22commanding and the commanding officer. In that 23particular situation, it would be unfair for me to 24give an assessment. 25 Q. Let's look at the second,

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 65 2 3 4 5 6 1then. If a test came back indicating a positive 2result for banned substances, would that be 3sufficient reason to transfer him to non-deployable 4status in HQ? 5 A. Absolutely. 6 Q. Do you know why Corporal 7Langridge was sent to HQ Squadron? 8 A. My understanding was that it 9was because of failure of a safety-sensitive drug 10test. 11 Q. We see reference in some of 12the materials to DAG and to DAG Red. Can you tell 13us what DAG is and what DAG Red is? 14 A. DAG stands for Departure 15Assistance Group. It is an administrative process 16that all soldiers must complete prior to 17deployment. 18 It checks everything from their 19will to their family status, their mental health, 20their physical health. I think the document is in 21front of me. There are about 25 to 30 things that 22need to be verified prior to deployment. 23 Q. You are referring to 24documents in front of us. I think you are 25referring to a checklist of things that need to be

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 66 2 3 4 5 6 1done, and it is document -- you won't know about 2this, Major, but people in the room will know about 3it. 4 This is one of the three documents 5that were produced this morning. I am assuming you 6are looking at Operational Readiness Verification 7and Departure Assistance Group? 8 A. Correct. In this one here, 9it has 28 steps, actually, and this was based on a 102006 version. Sorry. This isn't the version I 11submitted. 12 Q. This isn't the version you 13submitted? 14 A. It may or may not have been. 15I apologize for that. Date received. All right. 16If this is the one that I submitted, this was -- 17the one that was from 2006, so the current one may 18have more steps in it. 19 Q. This is what would have had 20to have been done to prepare a regiment for 21deployment? 22 A. To prepare any soldier prior 23to deployment. 24 Q. I am going to have to ask the 25registrar for assistance. Can you help me with the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 67 2 3 4 5 6 1exhibit number? 2 THE REGISTRAR: For which 3document? 4 MR. FREIMAN: Operational 5Readiness Verification and Departure Assistance 6Group personnel. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-24. 8 MR. FREIMAN: Perhaps so as not to 9disrupt the flow of the examination, you could 10remind me -- I apologize; I didn't make a note of 11this -- of the exhibit number that corresponds to 12the document entitled Common-Law Partnership 13Application. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-25. 15 MR. FREIMAN: Finally, the 16checklist, life events affecting pension annuity, 17pay allowance and benefits and expenses. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-23. 19 MR. FREIMAN: Finally, there was a 20group of documents that was submitted with respect 21to the evidence of Sergeant Hiscock. Can you give 22the exhibit number for that? 23 THE REGISTRAR: Are you referring 24to personnel emergency? That is P-22. 25 MR. FREIMAN:

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 68 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. I apologize, Major, but it 2will make the record more meaningful. We were 3talking about Exhibit 24. Those are the steps that 4need to be taken for DAG readiness. What is DAG 5Red? 6 A. It means that the person, for 7whatever reason, is not capable of deployment. 8That could be short-term or long-term. 9 Q. If the DAG Red status were 10consequent on a failed drug test, would that be 11permanent or would it be long-term, short-term? 12What would that categorization be? 13 A. Definitely he would not be 14fit for deployment on his current status. 15 Q. What would have to happen, 16then, to reverse that? 17 A. He would have to follow -- 18there is a whole procedure. You have to be on 19counselling probation. There is a whole checklist 20and a manual that outlines it. 21 Without that manual in front of 22me, I do not feel comfortable saying, "This is what 23has to happen at this time," and so on. 24 Generally speaking, you go on 25counselling probation for about a year, and

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 69 2 3 4 5 6 1depending on your circumstances and the results of 2that counselling probation, you can definitely be 3recoverable, if you will. 4 Q. If I understood correctly, 5from the time the person was put on counselling and 6probation, that person could probably expect more 7or less a year, maybe even more than a year, before 8that person would even be considered for potential 9re-deployment? 10 A. That would be a fair 11assessment, but every situation would have to be 12examined individually. 13 Q. But as I understood your 14evidence, and maybe I misunderstood it, the process 15will take a minimum of a year? 16 A. I believe so. Again, I would 17like to refer to the manual to verify that, but 18based on my memory, it was counselling and 19probation for one year. 20 Q. When a member is put on DAG 21Red, what information, if any, about the reasons 22that underlie that status is made known to the 23chain of command? 24 A. The chain of command would 25have to know so they can make a proper assessment

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 70 2 3 4 5 6 1and placement of the soldier. 2 Q. Let's do this bit by bit. 3 The chain of command would know 4whether the assignment was for a medical condition, 5for a personal, family-related condition, or 6whether it was for a -- should we call it an 7administrative disciplinary reason related to 8drugs? Am I correct about that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Specifically, were you aware 11of Corporal Langridge's situation as a member of 12Headquarters Squadron? 13 A. I would have been aware of 14his situation. However, I joined Headquarters 15Squadron in November, so when most of these 16incidents took place -- the failure of the testing 17and the incidents that happened in Wainwright -- I 18was actually deployed at that time. I joined in 19November. I was just getting read up on certain 20situations when I joined. 21 Q. From your recollection, what 22did you know about Corporal Langridge's situation 23when you informed yourself of the circumstances of 24the members of your squadron? 25 A. Can you repeat the question?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 71 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. From your memory, what were 2you aware of with respect to Corporal Langridge in 3November 2007? 4 A. I would have been aware that 5he was scheduled to deploy with a squadron 6overseas, a tank squadron, and he failed a drug 7test. As the result of his failure, he was moved 8to Headquarters Squadron. 9 Q. In general, when there is a 10-- let's start with a medical reason for a member 11not being deployable and being categorized as DAG 12Red. How much is shared by the medical community 13with the chain of command about the background that 14led to that DAG Red categorization? 15 A. That is really a tough one. 16Generally speaking, the medical authorities share 17very little, next to nothing, with the chain of 18command. 19 The majority of the time, it is 20the member who discloses the information to the 21chain of command, because they trust the chain of 22command and understand the importance of the chain 23of command to know the information so we can act in 24their best interest. 25 Q. Again, with respect to

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 72 2 3 4 5 6 1drug-related issues that lead to DAG Red 2categorization, what is shared with the chain of 3command about that? 4 A. The chain of command would 5know what he failed for and when he failed. 6 Q. What was your understanding 7of Corporal Langridge's status, vis-a-vis his drug 8issue -- that is the failure of the drug test and 9any ongoing actions being taken with respect to 10that -- let's say in November 2007? What did you 11know about where he was at and what was being done 12about that failed drug test? 13 A. My understanding is that he 14volunteered to accept treatment at a facility. 15 Q. Did you have an understanding 16of what impact, if any, there would be on his 17situation as a result of having volunteered to go 18to a rehabilitation centre? 19 A. Can you just rephrase that 20question, please? 21 Q. Did you have an understanding 22of what the impact would be on his status as a 23result of his having volunteered to go for drug 24treatment? 25 A. If I understand your question

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 73 2 3 4 5 6 1correctly, by going through treatment, a person can 2rehabilitate themselves and maintain in the 3Canadian Forces. Is that your question? 4 Q. Yes. Again, I would like you 5just to think back as to what you knew. When he 6was going for rehabilitation, did you know whether 7he was going for alcohol rehabilitation or drug 8rehabilitation? Whether he was going for either, 9neither or both? 10 A. My understanding at the time 11was that it was for drug and alcohol. 12 Q. Were you given any 13information in January 2008 about Corporal 14Langridge's success or failure with his 15rehabilitation? 16 A. My understanding was that he 17withdrew himself from treatment. 18 Q. When did you come to know 19that fact? 20 A. That was a long time ago, and 21it would be unfair for me to speculate. 22 Q. Would you have known it 23before Corporal Langridge's suicide? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Let's talk a little bit about

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 74 2 3 4 5 6 1a soldier's personnel file and your role vis-a-vis 2that personnel file. 3 Who is responsible for the 4accuracy and the up-to-date character of a 5soldier's personnel file? 6 A. Ultimately, the member and 7the chain of command would be responsible for 8ensuring the information in that document is 9up-to-date. 10 Q. What are the elements of a 11personnel file a soldier has to keep current and 12up-to-date? 13 A. Anything to do with personal 14administration, so, for example, their SDB, their 15will, marital status, dental plan benefits. If 16those statuses change, their responsibility is to 17notify the chain of command and make sure it is 18updated. Their family care plan, just to name a 19few. 20 I think this document here, 21checklist for life-altering events, would be the 22document. They are responsible for almost all 23those. 24 What the chain of command would do 25is remind them, "You know what? This hasn't been

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 75 2 3 4 5 6 1updated." For example, a will. Your will hasn't 2been updated for a year. Get up here and take a 3look at it and make sure it is updated. 4 Q. We were talking about Exhibit 5P-23, the checklist of life events affecting 6pension annuity, pay allowance and benefits. 7 If I understood correctly what you 8told us, each of the items in here refers to an 9event and some document that may be relevant to 10that event, and you were telling us that it is the 11member's responsibility to ensure that those 12documents are correct. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. The chain of command may 15remind the member of the importance of updating 16those forms. Can you tell us when the chain of 17command might intervene to remind a member of that 18responsibility? 19 A. If the document is incomplete 20or nonexistent, for whatever reason, they would 21definitely remind the soldier and get that 22corrected right away. 23 Actually, every year at a minimum, 24the squadron will have a DAG-ing process, whether 25deploying or not, just to make sure that everything

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 76 2 3 4 5 6 1is up-to-date. 2 So everyone cycles through the 3chain of command and the clerks, and they review 4the status, and if there was something they 5identified, if there is a deficiency, they would be 6asked to correct it right away. 7 Q. You said "every year at a 8minimum." Was there a specific date when that 9exercise would occur? 10 A. I would be generalizing. 11September is a good time. Everyone is coming back 12after summer vacation. There is reorganization. 13However, I have seen it done in September. I have 14seen it done in January. I have seen it done at 15different times of the year. It depends on the 16training schedule. 17 Q. Who initiates the process? 18 A. Generally speaking, it would 19be called the 2IC of the squadron or the 20administration officer of the squadron. It could 21even be initiated at the regimental level, done by 22the adjutant or even the commanding officer may 23provide guidance on that. It would depend on the 24situation. 25 Q. You were the 2IC of the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 77 2 3 4 5 6 1squadron in November, but you told us that 2September is a more convenient time. During the 3time period we are interested in, from November 42007 to March 2008, did you initiate any general 5review of documentation? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Were you aware of whether 8there had been one initiated prior to your arrival? 9 A. No. 10 Q. During that time period, was 11there any external event that would have initiated 12a general review of some or all of the documents in 13a soldier's personnel file? 14 A. Every soldier's personnel 15file would be reviewed based on their individual 16situation. You have the general review, which is a 17blanket review. We all go through things. It is 18very systematic. But at any time if something 19changes in a soldier's life, their file is 20absolutely reviewed. If there is a promotion or 21common-law status or anything like that, there is 22an entire file review done. 23 Q. Let's talk about common-law 24status because we know that an event occurred in 25connection with Corporal Langridge's common-law

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 78 2 3 4 5 6 1status. In general, would a declaration of 2common-law status or a revocation of common-law 3status lead to a review of the soldier's file? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Who would initiate that file 6review? 7 A. Generally speaking, it would 8be the clerk. 9 Q. Would there be any 10circumstances under which you would be the person 11who would be initiating the review? 12 A. I am just going to change the 13question slightly. I wouldn't initiate it. The 14process would be initiated by the clerk, and then 15as the file goes up the chain of command, certain 16things would be flagged or not flagged, and a 17complete review would be done at each level. 18 For example, for common-law, the 19clerk would take a look at it. She would let me 20know if she had any concerns. If anything was 21highlighted, she would let me know, but I would 22still, then, review all the documents prior to 23moving that file off my desk. 24 Q. Let's look at the declaration 25of common-law status that is in the document book

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 79 2 3 4 5 6 1by your side. This is tab 16. We will just leave 2that open for a moment. It is dated December 7, 32007. 4 Before we look at it in any 5detail, do you remember the events with respect to 6Stuart Langridge's declaration of common-law status 7along with Rebecca Hamilton-Tree? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Can you tell me what you 10remember? 11 A. I remember there was a 12request for it. They had to schedule an 13appointment. They scheduled an appointment with me 14where I could meet both of them. 15 Q. Let me just stop for a 16moment. Am I to understand that this was part of 17your role as the 2IC for the squadron to deal with 18matters like declarations of common-law status? 19 A. Statutory declarations is 20where I would have come in. Part of the common-law 21status is a statutory declaration, so by the nature 22of the squadron at the time, I was the first 23available officer that could have done it. 24 It is not necessarily due to my 25position. It was due to my rank. The

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 80 2 3 4 5 6 1administration officer responsible for all the 2administration of the squadron was the lieutenant, 3and the lieutenant, they do not have the capability 4to do statutory declarations. That is why I am the 5next one up the food chain who was able to do that. 6 Q. So they ask for an 7appointment and they were granted an appointment on 8December 7, I think. That is the date? 9 A. Unfortunately, the other part 10of the document that I signed is not here. It 11would have been in early December. I cannot for 12sure say it was the 7th of December. 13 Q. What is that other part of 14the document? 15 A. That is this document right 16here. 17 Q. That is the -- 18 A. Common-law partnership 19application. Sorry. There is actually a statutory 20declaration that goes in front of this. 21 Q. It is not Exhibit P-25, the 22common-law partnership application? 23 A. This is what the commanding 24officer signs off on, which makes it legally 25binding. The document that I signed off, the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 81 2 3 4 5 6 1statutory declaration saying they swear that this 2relationship is, in fact, true and all the 3information they have given me is true, I would not 4have had the authority to make it legal. Does that 5make sense? 6 Q. It makes an awful lot of 7sense, but it leads me to ask: Where would the 8rest of the document be filed? Where would we look 9for it? 10 MS. RICHARDS: It is on the file. 11The Commission has it. I can give you the 12reference, and if you want to take a brief break 13and make a photocopy, you can do that. 14 It is document 1139-I. That is 15one place it appears, but it also appears in other 16places. You will see it is the back side of the 17document that has been included in the witness 18book. 19 MR. FREIMAN: I don't think we 20have to delay anything. 21 Q. The back side is a common-law 22relationship application for recognition. It 23recites the applicant's name, Corporal Langridge, 24and his rank. It has his signature. It has a 25place for the commanding officer to indicate he is

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 82 2 3 4 5 6 1or is not satisfied that the application meets the 2legal requirements, and the date of effectiveness, 3which is December 7, and it is signed the 12th of 4December by the commanding officer, 5Lieutenant-Colonel as he then was, J.P.P. Demers 6(ph)? 7 A. Actually, that was signed for 8the commanding officer. That signature on there I 9believe to be Lieutenant -- at the time, Major 10Cadieu, now Lieutenant-Colonel Cadieu. 11 Q. Thank you. I don't think we 12have to stop for that. We have Stuart Langridge 13and Rebecca Hamilton-Tree coming in to see you on 14December 7. 15 Let's pick up the narrative. What 16do you recall about the circumstances, the 17background, and what happened at that meeting? 18 A. First of all, I asked for the 19documents to prove they had lived together for a 20year and identification of both members. Obviously 21at that point, I would have known Corporal 22Langridge, but I had never met his girlfriend at 23the time, so I asked for documentation to prove 24that she is, in fact, who she says she is. 25 Then I asked for proof or

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 83 2 3 4 5 6 1documentation that shows they had cohabited for a 2year. Once they meet that, then I just have a 3general discussion with them. Or I had a general 4discussion with them to make sure they understand 5the benefits and the consequences -- that is the 6word I often use -- of establishing a relationship. 7 Q. When you brief a couple who 8have come before you to sign this sort of 9declaration, what do you brief them about in terms 10of the benefits and in terms of the drawbacks? 11 A. From the benefits 12perspective, obviously they are entitled to all the 13benefits that the military offers, being insurance 14for health care, insurance for dental plan. Those 15are the two big ones. Also travel assistance. In 16the event a member is deployed, they can meet in a 17second location. There are subsidies for stuff 18like that. 19 On the consequence side, the way I 20brief it -- and I always make it clear that I am 21not a lawyer, but this is a legally binding 22document. It could be used both for you and 23against you, should the relationship dissolve in 24the future. It is not to be taken lightly, and you 25need to understand that it is not just all good.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 84 2 3 4 5 6 1It is a legal, binding document. 2 Q. Did you have any concerns 3with respect to this application in view of the 4fact that you knew that Corporal Langridge had an 5issue with respect to a drug test? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can you tell us about that? 8 A. Understanding that the member 9was going to be going on a course in the near 10future, I did ask if this was being done for the 11right reasons or if it was being done for benefits. 12 Again, we want to make sure that 13we are signing this for the right reasons and not 14just for a free trip to wherever. I definitely 15looked both of them in the eyes, and I asked the 16question, because it is not just about Corporal 17Langridge. It is also about Rebecca, because she 18has to understand the consequences and benefits of 19this document, as well. 20 I did that in both cases, and they 21both clearly understood what document they were 22signing and what it meant. There was no question 23in my mind that they understood that. 24 It is not my business to judge. 25It is my business to make sure that they meet the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 85 2 3 4 5 6 1requirements and I have done my due diligence. 2Once I did that, they signed the documents and I 3signed the documents and it was done. 4 Q. When it was done, obviously 5this was sent off for ratification by or on behalf 6of the Lieutenant-Colonel Demers. In the 7meanwhile, what should have happened with respect 8to an updating of Corporal Langridge's personnel 9file? 10 A. It would go to the commanding 11officer. The commanding officer would sign it off. 12It would come back down, and then this copy that is 13exhibit -- 14 Q. Under 24? 15 A. Tab 16. 16 Q. Sorry. Tab 16, yes. 17 A. Tab 16. A copy of that would 18go in his pers file, and then all the information 19would be updated in the computer systems, 20PeopleSoft, to officially recognize this 21relationship. 22 Q. At the same time, should 23there also be a review of existing documentation? 24 A. Absolutely. That is where 25you look at --

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 86 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. Exhibit 23. 2 A. That is the life events 3affecting pension annuity, pay allowances, benefits 4or expenses. There would have been a document like 5this one -- potentially exactly like this one or 6slightly different, but it would have followed that 7same procedure. 8 A lot of times, it is redundant in 9the sense that a lot of that stuff does not 10necessarily always need to be done for every 11situation, but it guides the clerk through the 12administration process to make sure that nothing is 13overlooked. 14 Q. Just looking at the forms 15that are listed, the documents related to the event 16in that column, we see under 8, will; under 9, 17emergency contact notification form; 10, 18supplementary death benefits; 11, designation of 19Military Cross recipients. Those, as I understand 20it, would be four documents that would require 21updating? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you have any practice, in 24terms of instructing the clerk or someone just like 25the clerk with respect to this update, or was that

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 87 2 3 4 5 6 1something that they would know to do on their own? 2 A. They would absolutely know to 3do on their own. 4 Q. What would be your 5expectation about the paperwork that should have 6been filled out by Corporal Langridge, when it 7should have been filled out, and who, if anyone, 8should have reminded him to do that? 9 A. I am just going to back up 10for a second. When the common-law documents go 11forward, they are in a sleeve or a jacket, and on 12top of that, this would actually be stapled to it, 13so as it goes through the -- 14 Q. Exhibit 23? 15 A. Correct. That makes sure 16that everything is done and that nothing gets 17overlooked during the procedure. 18 Q. Let me ask you another 19question while we are talking about what is in the 20personnel form. Would the personnel form also 21contain any information about the drug test and the 22results of the drug test and the state of events 23with respect to such a failure? Was that kept 24somewhere else? 25 A. There would be documents that

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 88 2 3 4 5 6 1would indicate on his personnel folder that he 2failed a drug test. 3 A. Do you have any recollection 4of you personally reviewing the personnel file 5after the common-law declaration that was made by 6Corporal Langridge and Ms. Hamilton-Tree? 7 A. I would not have a reason to 8review it after. I would have reviewed it before, 9and then once I reviewed it, the document has been 10signed, and the personnel folder actually stays 11with his form, which is in the other jacket, until 12it is complete. The folder and the document stay 13together until the process is finished. That is 14the way it is supposed to happen. 15 Q. Let's just follow the trail. 16We have the document signed on the 7th and ratified 17on the 12th. What happens to it then? Does it get 18put into the personnel file and sent somewhere? 19 A. It wouldn't be sent anywhere. 20It would rest in his personnel file. 21 Q. That would be given, as I 22understand it, to the clerk? 23 A. I am not sure I understand 24what you are referring to. 25 Q. I understand there is a

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 89 2 3 4 5 6 1personnel file. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And that we have just 4completed an additional document that is going to 5go into that personnel file. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That is the document we have 8been looking at. It requires a ratification, so it 9is going to take a couple of days before it is 10ready for filing. 11 I am just trying to follow the 12path of the document. When it reaches the desk of 13whoever is going to ratify it, either the CO or his 14designate, does it travel along with the personnel 15file or does it travel on its own? 16 A. It would travel with. Again, 17generally speaking, there would be an elastic band 18that holds the two together. There are exceptions 19to every rule, but that is the way it is supposed 20to be done. 21 Q. Let's assume things happen 22the way they should. 23 A. Absolutely. 24 Q. If they happen as they 25should, the document is signed on the 12th, and it

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 90 2 3 4 5 6 1goes from whoever signs it back to -- physically, 2whether it is Lieutenant -- was it 3Lieutenant-Colonel Cadieu? I have forgotten what 4his rank was. 5 A. It was Major at the time. 6 Q. Major Cadieu has an office. 7Presumably this would be brought to his office for 8signature? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. After he signed it, someone 11would pick it up and physically move it somewhere 12else? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Who would pick it up and 15where would it be moved? 16 A. I can't speak to who would 17pick it up, but from his office, it would go into 18the regimental orderly room. There is a log that 19tracks documents going into the commanding 20officer's office or his designates and back out, so 21it would have been logged out of that office, and 22then it would have been brought over to the 23Headquarters Squadron's orderly room, and the clerk 24would have then taken it and filed it. 25 Q. Clearly, there are forms that

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 91 2 3 4 5 6 1need to now be updated. If things are going the 2way they should, who would be retrieving blank 3copies of those forms, and how would they be given 4to the member, and how would the member know what 5he has to do? 6 A. The way Headquarters Squadron 7operated at that time is: The member would have 8been given all those forms either immediately prior 9to or immediately after the interview with me. 10 Q. That would have been by the 11squadron clerk? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. We understand that the 14responsibility of the member, then, is to fill them 15out and to return them correctly filled out to the 16squadron clerk? 17 A. Yes. Most times, the soldier 18is able to complete them on the spot. There is no 19secret information. It is very straightforward. 20Generally speaking, the clerk will lay out all the 21forms, and the member will fill them out and sign 22them right in the location. 23 Q. In fact, we have copies of 24the four forms that are referred to in the 25documents. Let's just refer to them for a second.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 92 2 3 4 5 6 1 It is 6, 7, and 8. No, 8 is 2wrong. Six is correct, 7 is correct, and I think 3the others are before that. Two is a will, and I 4am not sure where the fourth one is. That is the 5Military Cross form. 6 In any event, those are the forms. 7As you say, they are blank forms with a few items 8of information that need to be filled in. Just to 9make the point that you were making, at tab 2, a 10will dated August 2002. On the second page, you 11see that the witness to the execution of the will 12turns out to be the RMS clerk. Very much as you 13predicted, it is filled out in the presence of a 14squadron clerk. 15 Do you know whether anyone gave 16Corporal Langridge the necessary forms to fill out? 17 A. I did not physically see the 18transfer of documents; however, our procedure is 19very clear, and the clerk that we had at the time 20was an outstanding clerk, and there is no question 21in my mind that she would have done the job 22properly. 23 Q. I am going to show you a form 24that we just saw for the first time on Thursday 25afternoon. This is Exhibit 22. Not the tabs. I

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 93 2 3 4 5 6 1am not sure whether it is in front of you. If it 2isn't, I will give it to you. 3 Just to start us off, tab 7 in 4your book of documents is the personal emergency 5notification form that was found in Corporal 6Langridge's personnel file following his death. 7 You can see it is dated the 26th 8of September 2006. It names Shaun Fynes as primary 9next of kin and Sheila Fynes as secondary next of 10kin. It is signed and dated. 11 Exhibit 22 is a personal emergency 12notification form filled out by Corporal Langridge, 13signed by Corporal Langridge, on March 5, 2007, 14naming Rebecca Tree as his primary next of kin and 15Shaun Fynes as his secondary next of kin. 16 For your information, this form 17looks like it would have been filled out as an 18incident of the PLQ course that Corporal Langridge 19went on in March and from which he was subsequently 20sent home complaining of anxiety and chest pains. 21 You have told us how a PEN form 22would find its way into the personnel file when 23someone was dealing with a life event involving a 24statutory declaration, and we saw in the common-law 25declaration how that, in the ordinary course, would

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 94 2 3 4 5 6 1work. 2 What should happen if a soldier 3fills out a PEN form as part of some other event, 4such as a personal leadership or a PLQ course? How 5is that supposed to get to the file? Who is 6supposed to send what to whom? 7 A. I am just going to seek a bit 8of clarification. This PEN form here in Exhibit 22 9was taken from a file in Wainwright? Is that 10correct? 11 Q. We are not sure. We just got 12it for the first time on Thursday with no further 13explanation. We will probably hear more about this 14later in the afternoon. 15 A. I think the challenge for me 16on this one is that I am not sure where these 17documents came from, so I can't comment. If you 18tell me they came from a pers file -- 19 Q. It did not come from the pers 20file. It came to us in the context of a half dozen 21or more forms all related to the leadership course, 22the primary leadership qualification course that 23Corporal Langridge began but never finished in 24early March 2007. 25 A. I believe all these documents

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 95 2 3 4 5 6 1came from the leadership course, including that PEN 2form. 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. If that is the case, I can 5explain, generally speaking, how it works when you 6go on a course. 7 When you go on a course, whether 8it is in Wainwright, Gagetown or even sometimes in 9Edmonton, the course staff will have people fill 10out additional documents, so they now have that 11information in the event something happens. 12 Q. Do you know whether they have 13any obligation or whether there is any expectation 14about what they are going to do with forms such as 15this that affect annuity benefits, entitlements, et 16cetera? 17 MS. RICHARDS: I just want to be 18clear for the record. This form does not affect 19annuity benefits or entitlements. Just to be clear 20on the record. 21 MR. FREIMAN: Sorry. 22 Q. It affects notification, and 23we will learn subsequently of the confusion that 24arose as to what its actual status was. 25 A. I can only give this answer

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 96 2 3 4 5 6 1based on my experience and my experiences working 2at the Combat Training Centre in Gagetown. 3 In that case, we would have files. 4We would create a file on every soldier. That file 5would include personal information. It would also 6include -- it looks like there is a biography here, 7as well. It would include anything pertinent to 8that course. In the event there is an emergency on 9that course, this is the document that we would 10pull, and this is who we would phone. 11 At the completion of the course, 12that folder is closed. It gets filed away, and 13that is it. In other words, in my experience, it 14has not been a standing document. It only stays 15with that course. 16 Q. From your understanding, we 17then have two documents, both identical in terms of 18their blank state, both with the same title, both 19filled out by the soldier, signed, with the 20intention at the time they were signed of 21establishing who is to be notified in the event of 22an emergency, at the least. They are in two 23different locations, and they have different 24information as to who is to be informed on the two 25documents. Is that your understanding of what

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 97 2 3 4 5 6 1would happen? 2 A. The challenge with me giving 3a straight answer on this one is that I don't know 4the exact history of these documents. It would be 5unfair for me to speculate, and I don't feel 6comfortable giving you a straight answer for that 7reason. 8 Q. All right. We have your 9understanding of what would have happened while you 10were involved in these sorts of matters. 11 I think what you have told us is 12that the documents would just stay where they were 13and would not be forwarded anywhere because they 14would be thought only to apply to the specific 15event in the context it was prepared. 16 A. That was based on my personal 17experience at the Combat Training Centre in 18Gagetown. I can't speak to policies that would 19have -- the way we conducted there. 20 Q. Based on your own experience 21in Gagetown, would it be correct, then, that there 22could well be two different PEN forms, both validly 23signed by the soldier, with different information 24on each, located in different physical locations? 25 A. There would be a possibility

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 98 2 3 4 5 6 1that could happen. 2 Q. From your own personal 3experience, would anyone have told the soldier 4about which form takes precedence over which? 5 A. I am trying to remember the 6briefs that we give. It has been a long time since 7I have been there. I would just be speculating. 8 Q. If you can't answer, that is 9fine. Totally understandable. Let me move on to a 10different topic. 11 There is another document that, 12unfortunately, we didn't put into, I think, this 13collection of documents, but we have seen it with 14other witnesses. It is a Military Cross recipient 15designation form. I can't refer you to any 16document about that, to that document itself, but 17it is my understanding that you recall 18communication about the need to put Military Cross 19recipient information into current state that 20occurred around this same time, and to assist you, 21I can refer you to tab 38. 22 A. Could you repeat the 23question? 24 Q. I understand that with 25respect to Military Cross recipient designation,

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 99 2 3 4 5 6 1there was an initiative -- and tab 38 is a record 2of that initiative related to putting those into 3proper shape around the winter of 2007-2008? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Can you tell us what that was 6all about? You can refer to tab 38 if it helps 7you. 8 A. Basically, the administration 9officer was sending out email to the supervisors of 10those soldiers listed on that document to remind 11them that they need to fill out that document. 12 Q. Looking at the document, we 13can tell that as of January 24, 2008, the chain of 14command or at least Lieutenant Douglas was engaged 15in an exercise that included Corporal Langridge 16specifically to ensure that he changed a form that 17apparently had not been changed from a review of 18the records? 19 A. I would be hesitant to use 20the word "change." Complete. I can't say it was 21changed. I can't say it was complete. There was a 22problem with the form that needed to be rectified. 23 Q. We know that as of January 2424, 2008, there was a desire by the chain of 25command or at least by Lieutenant Douglas to have

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 100 2 3 4 5 6 1Corporal Langridge turn his mind to the Memorial 2Cross designation and fill out a form. 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Just to round out the 5discussion with respect to the declaration of 6common-law status and the document change in its 7wake, let me take a hypothetical. 8 If at any point prior to his death 9Corporal Langridge and/or Ms. Hamilton-Tree wished 10to revoke their declaration of common-law status, 11how could that be done? 12 A. The member would come in and 13fill out the paperwork essentially in the reverse 14order. In this case, I would not need to see 15Rebecca. The member comes in and says the 16relationship is nullified, and we go through the 17same process. 18 Q. In the ordinary course, would 19you be the person who would be asked to look after 20such an appointment? 21 A. I would have to review the 22QRLs and the ODs, but based on my recollection, it 23doesn't necessarily have to be me. It would have 24to be a commissioned officer of the rank of captain 25or above who would have to sign off on the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 101 2 3 4 5 6 1documents. Again, it would follow the same 2procedure. 3 Q. In order for the document to 4be valid, would the document need the signature of 5a commissioned officer with the rank of captain or 6above? 7 A. That is my understanding. 8Again, without me going through the books and 9having them in front of me, to my best 10recollection, it would be the exact same process. 11The statutory declaration would be done. Captain 12and above. And from there, the commanding officer 13would then sign it off, and that is what would make 14it legally binding again in reverse. That is my 15understanding without having the reference in front 16of me. 17 Q. Do you recall ever having 18been asked to discuss revocation of common-law 19status with Corporal Langridge? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Are you aware of anyone else 22ever having been approached to discuss a revocation 23of common-law status by Corporal Langridge? 24 A. No. 25 Q. If such an event occurred and

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 102 2 3 4 5 6 1such a document were completed, that is the 2statutory declaration attached to the revocation, 3where would that document find its way? 4 A. Pers file. 5 Q. On your review of the pers 6file, have you ever seen such a document? 7 A. A nullification of 8common-law? 9 Q. Corporal Langridge's. 10 A. Of Corporal Langridge's, 11absolutely not. 12 Q. I might as well ask you the 13other question. In terms of other soldiers, are 14you aware of instances where soldiers have revoked 15common-law status? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What happens to those 18documents? 19 A. They just rest in the pers 20file. It's a pretty simple process. 21 Q. I would like now to turn to 22the events that followed Corporal Langridge's 23release from the Alberta Hospital. This would have 24been on March 5, 2007. 25 Let me start by asking you this:

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 103 2 3 4 5 6 1At the time these incidents were taking place, were 2you aware before Corporal Langridge was released 3from hospital that he was going to be released? 4 A. I was not made aware. 5 Q. Subsequent to his release, 6were you made aware of there being any issues in 7terms of where he was to live, how he was going to 8be treated, how he was going to be integrated back 9into the life of the regiment or the squadron at 10this point? 11 A. Was I aware of any issues? 12 Q. Any issues, yes. 13 A. I was aware that the chain of 14command was concerned, but I did not have any 15specifics at that time. 16 Q. What was your understanding 17of the nature of the concern by the chain of 18command? 19 A. We are talking March 5? 20 Q. We are talking, yes, March 5 21or shortly thereafter, before you became involved 22as the recipient of an email from then Captain 23Lubiniecki. 24 A. Prior to that, I had minimal 25involvement. At that point, because of the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 104 2 3 4 5 6 1adjutant -- in that case, it would have been 2Captain Mark Lubiniecki. He would have been the 3person who does the external communications on 4behalf of the regiment. He would have had those 5discussions potentially with the regimental 6sergeant major, but I would not be purview to the 7immediate discussions. 8 Q. Were you aware, even in 9general terms, as to the subject matter of those 10discussions, even if you didn't know the details? 11 A. I can't remember. 12 Q. Let's talk about what 13happened on Friday, March 7, 2007. We know that 14you received an email from then Captain Lubiniecki, 15and I will draw your attention to that email. It 16is tab 22. It is actually an email to Charlene, 17which is Charlene Ferdinand (ph), a nurse, but you 18are CCed on that email. 19 First of all, is this email the 20first you became aware of any issues or was there a 21telephone conversation that may have preceded it? 22 A. A telephone conversation with 23whom? 24 Q. Then Captain Lubiniecki. 25 A. Mark was on leave, and I

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 105 2 3 4 5 6 1believe he gave me a heads up that there might be 2some communications that I might have to help with. 3 Q. Did he tell you what kind of 4communications they were and what the subject might 5be? 6 A. I can't remember. 7 Q. We see in the body of tab 22 8the message: 9 "Charlene, I am currently on 10 leave but have CCed the RSM 11 on this email. Please call 12 him at local 3180 or send him 13 an email. Failing that, you 14 should also contact Craig 15 Volstad 2IC HQ Squadron --" 16 (As read.) 17 Gives your local number: 18 "Both will be available to 19 assist you. You can also 20 send them emails and they can 21 assist. If you can send me 22 anything without names, just 23 details, I may be able to 24 assist via BB." (As read.) 25 Meaning BlackBerry, as I

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 106 2 3 4 5 6 1understand it. 2 What was your understanding of the 3nature of this request? What was Captain 4Lubiniecki trying to accomplish? 5 A. I am afraid I would be 6speculating. 7 Q. That is fine, but you 8answered him on an email at 2:46 p.m., and you told 9him, "We have made arrangements to watch him over 10the weekend." 11 A. Right. 12 Q. At some point, you became 13aware that there was something that needed to be 14done vis-a-vis Corporal Langridge that involved 15watching him over the weekend. 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. How did you come to that 18information? 19 A. At that point, I would have 20been aware of the situation. 21 Q. All right. How did you 22become aware? 23 A. I am reluctant to comment on 24what exactly Mark's intent of the email was. What 25I did was -- there may have been a conversation

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 107 2 3 4 5 6 1with Mark afterwards on the phone. There may not 2have been. I am not sure. 3 Somewhere along the lines, I got 4more details, and I then responded by saying that 5we have made arrangements to ensure the soldier's 6safety. It has been done in consultation with the 7necessary people, and I think we are in good shape 8going into the weekend. 9 Q. Let's break that down. What 10did you understand the purpose of the watch to be? 11 A. To protect Corporal 12Langridge. 13 Q. From what? 14 A. From hurting himself and from 15any desire to use illicit drugs. 16 Q. Who told you about the need 17for a watch, and who told you about the purpose for 18that watch? 19 A. At that point, it had already 20been established. I am not sure who actually 21initiated it at that point. I was just following 22up. 23 Q. If I understand correctly, by 24the time you became involved, discussions had 25already taken place and arrangements were underway

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 108 2 3 4 5 6 1for this watch? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Do you recall who you 4discussed it with? 5 A. No. 6 Q. I just want to establish -- 7generally, throughout this period of time, on March 87, did you have any reason to consult with any 9legal person at all? I don't want you to tell me, 10if you did, what they told you or what they didn't 11tell you. Did you consult with any legal 12authorities? 13 A. Me personally? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. I personally would not have 16consulted with legal. 17 Q. Thank you. Let's go back to 18the email itself. "We have made arrangements to 19watch him over the weekend." I am going to ask you 20to cast your mind back. Do you remember why the 21weekend was an issue, if it was? 22 A. No, I would be speculating. 23I can't remember specifics. I would not have 24thought of it as the weekend coming up. It was a 25weekend. Maybe during the week it is easier to

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 109 2 3 4 5 6 1provide safety measures. During the weekend, you 2are impacting other people's work lives and 3personal lives. That would be my only answer on 4that. 5 Q. Let's continue, then. After 6you say you have made arrangements to watch him 7over the weekend, in round brackets, i.e., phone 8calls and check-in times. Can you tell me what 9that involves? 10 A. I believe there is a document 11in one of these books that explains the procedures 12that were outlined. Prior to me sending that 13email, I would have walked down to the regimental 14orderly room or regimental headquarters, and I 15would have discussed this either with the RSM or 16one of the duty personnel. 17 I would have taken a look at that 18document, and I would have come back, typed this 19email, and sent it off. 20 Q. We have a document at tab 23 21that is an email. As with all these sorts of 22emails, we have to read them from back to front. 23The first email is from Captain Hannah, as he then 24was, to the RSM, as he then was -- everyone seems 25to be in a different position now -- just outlining

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 110 2 3 4 5 6 1some medical occupation employment limitations. 2 Was this something that had been 3communicated to you, the three conditions? Member 4to abstain absolutely from alcohol and drugs unless 5prescribed by a physician; 2, member to comply with 6treatment plan which includes remaining under the 7supervision of LDSH (RC); and 3, member to attend 8all scheduled appointments as directed by medical 9services. 10 Do you recall whether that was 11information that was communicated to you when you 12discussed this matter or when you saw a document in 13the RSM's office? 14 A. I would not have seen this 15email at the time, but there is clear guidance laid 16out, and I am not sure if it is the email above 17that I am referring to. 18 Q. There is the email above. 19Let's look at that. This is an email sent by Chief 20Warrant Officer Ross, the RSM, to Major Jared and 21Captain Lubiniecki. It says, "For your records 22from the base surgeon," so he is sending on, 23transmitting the medical occupational employment 24limitations in the first email, and he is adding to 25that what he calls his direction and restrictions.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 111 2 3 4 5 6 1You see three directions, and the third direction 2has seven subparagraphs in it. 3 Is this what you would have seen 4in your meeting with the RSM? 5 A. It would have been that or a 6version thereof. 7 Q. We have seen these conditions 8in a list that Captain Lubiniecki, as he then was, 9compiled, but that was done after the fact, and we 10have seen this email. We haven't seen the other 11documents containing these conditions. 12 Do you have a recollection as to 13whether there was a document that you were given to 14read or whether it was simply information that was 15passed to you orally? 16 A. I can't recall. 17 Q. I note that this email is 18time stamped 14:26 p.m. on March 7 and that your 19email is sent 20 minutes thereafter at 2:46 p.m. on 20that same day. Is it fair to say that this came 21after -- it is clear that it came after the email 22was sent. It clearly also came after you had a 23meeting with the RSM. That's right, isn't it? 24 MS. RICHARDS: Sorry. I don't 25think that the email that you are referring to, Mr.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 112 2 3 4 5 6 1Freiman, is 14:26. I think it is 15:35. The 2bottom one is 14:26 -- 3 MR. FREIMAN: You are right. 415:35. 5 Q. Your information to Captain 6Lubiniecki, in fact, is about an hour before the 7email sent out by the RSM to Major Jared, copied to 8Captain Lubiniecki? 9 A. It appears that way. 10 Q. Tell me what you recall the 11RSM discussing with you and explaining to you. 12 A. What I remember is either 13reading or being briefed on these things here. I 14believe I remember reading them, but I can't 15confirm 100 percent for sure. I definitely did not 16see this email. What I would have read would have 17been on a document saying, all right, this is what 18we have planned for the weekend. Take a look at 19it. I would have read it. All right, sounds good. 20I would have walked back to my office and sent that 21email. 22 It's a guess that it would have -- 23there were a lot of things going on that day. 24Maybe the email hadn't been solidified. Sometimes 25you get distracted and it just hasn't been sent. I

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 113 2 3 4 5 6 1am not sure if it makes any difference for the 2information. 3 Q. I can't expect you to comment 4on the timing of now Captain Ross's email. 5Obviously that is outside of your knowledge. What 6I am just trying to establish is the nature of the 7information that was given to you and the means by 8which it was given to you. 9 You have told us that you can't 10remember. You thought that it might have been in 11writing, but it is possible it was simply an 12exchange of information that he gave you? 13 A. It is possible. Generally 14speaking, I like to read things. It was almost 15four or five years ago. I can't remember if I read 16it or briefed it. At that level, I would 17definitely take the RSM's word verbatim, so if he 18did brief me, that would have been completely 19acceptable at the time. 20 Q. Before you sent your email 21out to then Captain Lubiniecki, did you have 22occasion to discuss the conditions, what they were 23designed to do and how well they might do them with 24anyone else before you communicated them to Captain 25Lubiniecki? We know you talked to the RSM. Did

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 114 2 3 4 5 6 1you talk to anyone else? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you have any views as to 4the aptness of these conditions to accomplish their 5goal? 6 A. My understanding at the time 7was that all preventative measures were taken, both 8from a legal side and from a medical side, and for 9that reason, I did not feel that I was qualified, 10nor was it my business, to give a personal opinion 11on these. 12 Q. Did you have any expectation 13as to the respective roles of the military 14community and its chain of command and the medical 15community and its practitioners and clinicians in 16accomplishing the goals that were sought to be 17accomplished by these arrangements? 18 A. Can you rephrase that 19question, please? 20 Q. Did you have any views at the 21time or any expectations in terms of the two goals 22you told us about? One, to keep Corporal Langridge 23from harming himself; and two, to minimize the 24possibility of his consuming illicit substances. 25Did you have any expectations as to who was

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 115 2 3 4 5 6 1supposed to do this or who was supposed to do what 2about this, as between the chain of command and the 3medical community? 4 A. If I understand correctly, 5you are asking me who should accept responsibility 6for doing this? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Based on my experience, I 9have never seen preventative measures like this, 10both at the time this happened and up until this 11point in my career. 12 At that point, I was actually 13surprised at the extent to which we were going to 14help this soldier, and I meant surprised in a good 15way. We are definitely doing everything humanly 16possible to help and protect this soldier. 17 I could not think of anything else 18that could be done to help him. Does that answer 19your question? 20 Q. Do you have any expectations 21about the role of the medical community in all of 22this? 23 A. My expectation is that they 24provide good advice and lead us down the right 25path. A case like this is definitely very

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 116 2 3 4 5 6 1complicated, and for a soldier or officer to know 2how to handle it would be unfair, truthfully. It 3is not in our training anywhere to deal with 4situations like that. 5 That is why legal advice and 6medical advice was sought on the best way to 7proceed to protect the soldier. We definitely want 8to protect the soldier and help the soldier to the 9best of our capability without infringing on their 10personal rights and freedoms, as well. I think 11that is the important thing. We wanted to make 12sure we did everything we could do without 13overstepping our boundaries legally. 14 Q. I want to ask you about a 15concept that we have seen in the documents. The 16concept is entitled "a trial of good behaviour." 17Are you familiar with that concept? 18 A. I don't believe that is a 19recognized term. 20 Q. Have you heard of that 21concept before? 22 A. No. If you can show me an 23email -- I don't recall. It is not something I 24would use. I am not saying it is not used. If I 25am on an email, I apologize.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 117 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. You are not on an email. I 2think because of the ground rules under which we 3are functioning, I have to leave it at that. 4 Let me ask you whether you are 5familiar with the notion of a soldier demonstrating 6his ability to comply with certain conditions or 7restrictions or commands as a precursor to other 8things, as a precondition to him being allowed to 9do other things. 10 A. That is pretty general. 11Would you mind -- 12 Q. In the current situation, we 13are given to understand from some of the documents 14that what was understood was that Corporal 15Langridge was being released from hospital on a 16trial of good behaviour to see if he was capable of 17abiding by certain conditions prior to him being 18sent for a further course of drug rehabilitation. 19Is that a concept with which you are familiar? 20 A. I am not familiar with that 21concept. 22 Q. Have you ever heard of that 23happening before? 24 A. Personally, I have not heard 25of that happening in a medical situation. I have

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 118 2 3 4 5 6 1not heard of it. 2 Q. Have you heard of it 3happening in a non-medical situation? 4 A. I think if we look at the 5procedures for counselling and probation in 6general, whether it be for disciplinary action or 7whatever, a soldier does have to redeem themselves 8prior to getting something. 9 For example, if a corporal gets in 10trouble for being late too many times and goes into 11counselling and probation, before he is sent on a 12leadership course, he would have time to rectify 13that. If you want to extrapolate it, you could 14potentially make the same connection, but that 15would be the official procedures and policy for 16that. 17 Q. I think I have to leave the 18discussion at that. Let me just round out my 19questions about the conditions and your 20understanding of the specific conditions. 21 First of all, did you have any 22understanding that these conditions that we were 23just talking about and that we have seen in the 24email were conditions that were put in place as 25part of -- whether you call it this or not, but the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 119 2 3 4 5 6 1same concept of trial of good behaviour. 2 The three conditions and the seven 3subsets of the third condition, did you understand 4them to be part of a trial of good behaviour? 5 A. I definitely would not have 6phrased them that way. My interpretation at the 7time was that it was 100 percent to protect the 8soldier. There is not a lot of room for -- it is 9set out for him. 10 Q. Were you aware of any issues 11or challenges that were involved in formulating the 12conditions in order to protect the soldier? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What were those issues and 15challenges? 16 A. There was no reason to 17discipline the soldier, so as a result, you cannot 18give disciplinary measures to a soldier who -- he 19has to do something wrong in order for those 20measures to take place. 21 In this case, although the soldier 22had a problem, it was still, to my understanding, 23an administrative problem that was being dealt with 24administratively. If measures were taken to 25confine a person, those would be considered

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 120 2 3 4 5 6 1disciplinary actions, and we were not doing 2disciplinary action on this soldier at that time. 3 For us to confine him to barracks 4or to make him be at a certain location against his 5will would be a different subset altogether, hence 6the reason for other experts providing advice. 7 Q. Did you have any belief at 8the time as to whether there was anything unrelated 9to these conditions that was happening in terms of 10Corporal Langridge's status within the army? Were 11there measures being taken vis-a-vis his continuing 12status in the Canadian Forces? 13 A. I believe there was. 14 Q. What do you believe was 15happening? 16 A. I believe that the member, if 17he did not rectify his deficiencies or his 18problems, his issues, would have been released from 19the military. 20 Q. What do you base that belief 21on? 22 A. I can't remember. 23 Q. To your understanding, who 24was the most actively involved in thinking through 25the issues or conditions and how to overcome some

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 121 2 3 4 5 6 1of the challenges that you are talking about? Who 2was ultimately responsible for making those 3decisions? 4 A. Responsible for making the 5decisions? It is my understanding that RSM Ross 6was the person who was most active in developing 7the measures. 8 Q. Whose ultimate responsibility 9was it? 10 A. This is a question I have a 11hard time answering because ultimately, you say the 12commanding officer, but you keep going up the food 13chain, and ultimately -- 14 Q. To your understanding, how 15far up the food chain did this particular issue go 16in terms of formulating, thinking through, 17adapting, and finally ratifying the conditions? 18 A. I would say it was -- RSM 19Ross was -- 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry. I 21missed that. 22 THE WITNESS: I am not sure 23because I was not involved in those conversations. 24I believe that it would make sense that RSM Ross 25may have been the person, but it also makes sense

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 122 2 3 4 5 6 1that it would have been done in consultation with 2the regimental 2IC, potentially the commanding 3officer. I don't believe the commanding officer 4was there at the time. And also OC headquarters, 5which is Major Jared. It would make sense that all 6those people would be involved. I do not have 7purview to that type of information. 8 MR. FREIMAN: 9 Q. Let me, then, turn briefly to 10one final issue. 11 MS. RICHARDS: Sorry. Can we have 12a two-minute health break? I am assuming you are 13going to be more than two minutes. 14 MR. FREIMAN: I will be five 15minutes, but we will have the health break anyway. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will stay in 17the room, and we will just take a short break, 18including the witness, if you need a break. Just 19remember that you are still testifying, Major, for 20conversations. 21--- Recess taken at 1:02 p.m. 22--- Upon resuming at 1:07 p.m. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: What I am going 24to do is: We should have broken when we left. I 25am going to break for lunch now. We will come back

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 123 2 3 4 5 6 1at 2 o'clock, if that is all right. During lunch, 2I caution that you are in the middle of your 3examination. You shouldn't be discussing your 4examination with anyone. I know there is no 5(inaudible) to witness, but I am referring to your 6examination and your testimony. Understood? 7 THE WITNESS: Does that mean I 8can't talk to my lawyer? 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: You can't talk 10to anyone about your testimony. 11 THE WITNESS: I understand. 12 MS. RICHARDS: I think the rule is 13a little more nuanced, but that is fine. The rule 14is that he can't talk about anything he has spoken 15about before. If there are issues that his counsel 16needs to speak to him about regarding issues that 17have not been covered, that is entirely proper. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 19 MR. FREIMAN: I think I take issue 20with that, but everyone has their own understanding 21of the obligations under the Rules of Professional 22Conduct, including obligations to maintain 23appearances, but I am not in a position to 24supervise anyone's understanding of those rules. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: I agree. I

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 124 2 3 4 5 6 1trust you will all follow accordingly. Thank you. 2--- Recess taken at 1:09 p.m. 3--- Upon resuming at 2:05 p.m. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we start, 5I wanted to apologize for the late lunch and going 6a little bit longer, but at different times in a 7hearing -- it's an important hearing and it's 8important to subjects, it's important to family, 9it's important to all counsel who have put time 10into it. Sometimes there's a little bit of 11personal sacrifice for all of us. My apologies. I 12can't say it won't happen again, but I'll do my 13best. 14EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF OF CRAIG VOLSTAD BY MR. 15FREIMAN CONTINUED: 16 Q. Just briefly, and I do mean 17briefly, I want to review with you the extent of 18your role in matters that followed the death. Now, 19we have in our document collection, at Tab 25, an 20email that discusses the convening of a casualty 21coordination meeting, and your name appears as one 22of the people who is going to be at the casualty 23coordination meeting. Do you remember attending? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And do you remember what the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 125 2 3 4 5 6 1purpose of that casualty coordination meeting was? 2 A. I'm just going to review this 3document. 4 Q. Please; take your time. 5 A. The intent of the meeting was 6just to ensure that all bases were covered and to 7delegate responsibilities of who would be doing 8what and who would be taking care of what. 9 Q. Okay. If you look at Tab 26, 10you'll see another email, and this details the 11results of the casualty coordination meeting, or 12rather, it discusses who was responsible, who was 13tasked with what responsibility. 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Okay. So let me first start 16by asking what your understanding of your own role 17at the casualty coordination meeting was. 18 A. Going back to Tab 25; is that 19correct? 20 Q. That would be the invitation. 21 A. Invitation? 22 Q. When you went to that 23meeting, what did you think your presence was meant 24to accomplish? 25 A. At that point when I went to

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 126 2 3 4 5 6 1the meeting I wasn't sure, to be honest with you. 2It could have involved a lot of things. For 3example, the funeral that had just taken place of 4Trooper Hayakaze, I was responsible for several 5things in regard to the service and parade and 6stuff like that. So I was expecting at that point 7that I would have similar responsibilities as I had 8already just completed a funeral. 9 Q. In the event was that what 10happened; were you made responsible? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Was there anything that you 13were made responsible for? 14 A. Not to my recollection. At 15that point it was more of information for me, and 16in the event that people required other information 17or required assistance that I'd be able to help. 18 Q. Do you remember there being 19any discussion on the issue of next of kin? 20 A. I do know that there were 21discussions. 22 Q. Do you remember the nature of 23those discussions? 24 A. I do know that people were 25verifying that whatever was on the pers file was

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 127 2 3 4 5 6 1the most current version. I do know that people 2looked in any other -- like in any other mailbox, 3if you will, that may have included something just 4to ensure. Because at times it could have been put 5in a mailbox and just hadn't been filed yet. Just 6double check. 7 Q. We've seen this morning that 8in fact one document clearly was not the most -- 9there's another issue of partially completed forms 10found later, but from what I showed you this 11morning, we know that there was a PEN form that was 12completed subsequent to the most recent PEN form in 13the first file. Do you have any views as to why 14that wouldn't have been found in such a 15comprehensive search? 16 A. Like I mentioned this 17morning, my belief is that that PEN form, that 18second PEN form, based on the information that's 19provided, and understand this is the first time 20I've seen those documents. 21 Q. This is the first I have too. 22 A. My understanding is those 23documents came from Wainwright. 24 Q. Right. 25 A. In the event they came from

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 128 2 3 4 5 6 1Wainwright, that's a different file altogether. 2Nobody would have phoned Wainwright and said, "Do 3you have any documents on Corporal Langridge at 4this time?" There would not even have been -- I 5would not even have considered it. We do training 6all across Canada at various times in our careers, 7and to have to go to every institution that we've 8done training would be an unrealistic expectation. 9That's why when a training folder is closed, it's 10closed, from my personal experience. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just while we're 12on that point, I have an understanding of what 13you're saying. The training sessions that would 14take place across Canada, do each of those training 15sessions have that kind of a form, an emergency 16form that would be attached? 17 A. Based on my experience, yes. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that would 19be the sole purpose at that -- that's your 20understanding of what -- 21 A. That's my understanding. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: For the people 23in charge of the training to know -- 24 A. My understanding is those 25forms are for the course staff to notify who the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 129 2 3 4 5 6 1member wants them to notify during that time frame. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: As they would 3not have access to personnel files? 4 A. Correct, sir. 5 BY MR. FREIMAN: 6 Q. I think we covered this 7morning that you don't recall whether the soldier 8who's filling out that form is told whether or not 9that form supersedes any other form that may be in 10that personnel file? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Okay. So getting back to the 13discussion with the casualty coordination meeting, 14we see from Tab 26 that there are some decisions 15made. I think it's Tab 26. Can you tell me what 16decision was made about next of kin and the basis 17for that decision? 18 MS. RICHARDS: Mr. Chairman, I 19would just caution, as Commission counsel is aware, 20there's an issue of solicitor-client privilege 21surrounding this meeting and that information 22obviously cannot be shared by this witness. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: On Tab... 24 MR. FREIMAN: Well, I think Ms. 25Richards was referring to the occasion of the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 130 2 3 4 5 6 1casualty coordination meeting rather than to a 2specific line in Tab 26. In fact, I'm not even 3sure that Tab 26 helps us that much when I look at 4it. 5 BY MR. FREIMAN: 6 Q. Well, I want to know whether 7you recall any decision that was made about next of 8kin at that meeting. 9 A. I honestly can't remember 10whether or not a decision was made at that meeting 11or not. 12 Q. Do you recall discussion 13about potentially competing claims for next of kin? 14 A. I do understand that there 15was a concern about what document was the most 16current, and I do know that every effort was made 17to make sure within the regiment that there was no 18other documents that potentially have superseded 19the documents in the pers file, and to the best of 20my recollection I remember that the documents that 21were in his pers file at the time were the 22documents that stood. 23 Q. And is it your further 24understanding that the discussion and the decisions 25were focused on those forms and on which form is

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 131 2 3 4 5 6 1the most current, or do you remember there being 2any other sort of discussion about next of kin? 3 A. I only remember what document 4was most current. 5 Q. Okay. 6 When you were attending the 7casualty coordination meeting, were you already 8aware of or did you become aware of any 9sensitivities as amongst the important people in 10Stuart Langridge's life in terms of any potential 11conflicts? 12 A. Could you please be a little 13more specific? 14 Q. When you were at the casualty 15coordination meeting were you aware of any 16conflicts or any disagreements or any sensitivities 17among, to be perfectly clear, Mr. and Mrs. Fynes on 18the one hand, the parents, and Ms. Hamilton-Tree on 19the other hand, with respect to any matter that was 20discussed at the casualty coordination meeting? 21 A. I knew the relationship was 22sensitive. I did not know the details of why it 23was sensitive or at what point it became sensitive, 24but I do know that -- I do remember hearing and 25being privy to discussions that were cognizant of

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 132 2 3 4 5 6 1that matter. The intent was always, from the chain 2of command, to be sensitive to both parties, just 3to make sure that -- it's a challenging time for 4everybody from the chain of command and for all 5sides of the family, so we were just trying to make 6sure that everyone was taken care of in the best 7manner. I can guarantee that. 8 Q. Finally, there were a number 9of investigations conducted by a number of 10individuals and institutions and there was a board 11of inquiry into Corporal Langridge's death as well, 12and there were investigations not only into the 13death but into subsequent events. Were you ever 14contacted by anyone in connection with any 15investigation? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Who were you contacted by? 18 A. Major Derek Chenette 19contacted me for the SI. 20 Q. All right. And the SI would 21have been the summary investigation into the actual 22suicide, am I correct, or was it a different SI? 23 A. Off the top of my head I 24can't remember the mandate of that specific SI. I 25believe it was -- I can't remember.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 133 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. All right. So what was the 2nature of the interest by whoever contacted you? 3What topics were they interested in? 4 A. They were just interested in 5my involvement. They were interested in my 6involvement in the signing of the statutory 7declaration for the common law and any other 8involvement that I may have they were looking for. 9At that point I notified them of what I had been 10involved with for their questions, and that was it. 11For the BOI I was not contacted. 12 Q. Were you ever contacted by 13the military police at all? 14 A. No. 15 MR. FREIMAN: Those are all my 16questions, but before I sit down, with respect to 17Tab 22, at this time I would like to register my 18objection to the redaction and I would like to 19request that this redaction be lifted. I checked 20at the break and the redaction is claimed on the 21basis of solicitor-client privilege. I won't go 22into the details of the privilege because I don't 23-- or of the basis for the solicitor-client 24privilege on a functional basis because I don't 25want to disclose what lies under it, but my

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 134 2 3 4 5 6 1fundamental point is that this witness did not 2contact any lawyers. He's told us that in his 3evidence in chief. Therefore, to the extent that 4this has anything to do with advice given or any 5legal matter, it would not be any legal matter in 6which this witness had a direct part to play. As 7such, even if there was privilege, that privilege 8would have been waived by the disclosure to this 9witness of any consultation, any advice, anything 10upon which solicitor-client privilege could be 11based, and when this witness then communicates to a 12third party, which would be a fourth party from any 13possible discussion of legal matters or request of 14advice, this document cannot benefit from 15solicitor-client privilege unless it is the 16position of counsel that any member of the military 17is entitled to shelter under solicitor-client 18privilege and when that member of the military 19becomes aware of legal advice given or sought by 20any other member of the military or on behalf of 21any other member of the military from any legal 22source, and that simply cannot be. 23 MS. RICHARDS: Not surprisingly, I 24disagree with counsel. It can be and it in fact 25is, and there's case law on that. I obviously have

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 135 2 3 4 5 6 1not received advance notice of this and I am not 2prepared at this stage to argue the case law. I 3would say that there are two points to issue that 4we would respond to. One will be a jurisdictional 5issue and, as we have raised before this Commission 6before, in the light of the prohibition in section 7250 against this Commission receiving any 8information that is solicitor-client privileged, 9that includes the fact that this Commission does 10not have a jurisdiction to rule on whether 11information is in fact protected by 12solicitor-client privilege. 13 To the extent that my friend is 14raising an issue of waiver, it is our position that 15this Commission does not have the jurisdiction to 16rule on that. 17 In regards just briefly to the 18issue about whether or not this information is 19privileged because it's individual, our position 20would be before a court who has the jurisdiction to 21rule on that issue, that that's incorrect in the 22law. Solicitor-client privilege in the context of 23a government institution belongs to the 24institution. Individuals within that institution 25obviously are the ones who seek that. The mere

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 136 2 3 4 5 6 1fact that advice has been communicated to others 2within the institution, or in fact the mere fact 3that various government departments have shared 4solicitor-client privileged information, does not 5at law amount to a (inaudible). 6 Those will be our two points. 7However, what I would say is if counsel would like 8to pursue this further and raise these very 9important legal issues, it is obviously something 10that we would require sufficient time and notice to 11prepare proper and fulsome argument before this 12Commission. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: First I'm going 14to go to Colonel Drapeau then I'll come back. 15 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I will try 16to make it as brief as I can, but the issue raised 17by Ms. Richards raises another issue, an issue 18which I don't want to address now but I have to 19address in order to be able to get from Point A to 20Point B. From what I understand based on Mr. 21Freiman's comments last week and comments by Ms. 22Richards, she is not only representing those 23respondent before this Commission, but also in the 24main acting for and representing all of the 25witnesses including the one that is sitting before

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 137 2 3 4 5 6 1us today. 2 When I look at this particular 3email, I see it came from the pen or from the 4keyboard of Colonel Cadieu, and my friend argues 5that the privilege, because a solicitor-client 6privilege belongs to the client -- her argument, if 7I understand it properly, is the client in this 8case is not Cadieu, it's the government and, as a 9result of it, she's claiming privilege for it. But 10she's also representing both this witness and 11Cadieu. I would be interested to know, when Mr. 12Cadieu comes to testify, whether or not he has 13independent counsel from which he takes advice and 14whether or not this privilege belongs to him and 15whether or not he's prepared to dispense with it. 16 At the moment we have got an 17inside -- it's almost a monastery. Everybody 18speaks from one voice, from one gospel, and that 19gospel in fact is my friend. So I have a problem 20with that. I have a problem to suggest that this 21email that has been given wide distribution, no 22indication whatsoever as to what could potentially 23-- and I don't know -- potentially be client's 24privileges on, in this particular instance I think 25with the others, it is claimed.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 138 2 3 4 5 6 1 I am not going to do or die on 2this particular email, but there are others where I 3will because it is obscuring information which I 4think, in our search for the truth, if we want to 5get there, we need to get there. And the privilege 6may be claimed, we have to have the certainty. I 7have to have the certainty that it is unequivocal 8and it is first and foremost, and on its face, 9because that's all I have to go by, on its face it 10is client solicitor. I don't form this opinion 11now, first. And second, given that it's an 12exchange between somebody, a Commission office, who 13has been and will be before this Commission, will 14be under oath and will be testifying, I have 15difficulty to accept and I'm quite prepared to 16reserve judgment, but my friends present case law 17to that effect, that that privilege belongs to the 18client, the client being defined as the Crown and 19not the individual. So I object to that. 20 MR. FREIMAN: I have a number of 21points. First, it is precisely because I accept 22the proposition that notice is required that I'm 23not proposing that this matter be argued now. I am 24proposing that it be argued on Thursday, Thursday 25being the day when then Major Jared -- I believe

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 139 2 3 4 5 6 1he's now Lieutenant-Colonel -- will be testifying 2and the same issue, but not necessarily with regard 3to a particular written communication in terms of 4the subject matter of this evidence, is likely to 5arise. It will be my submission at that point that 6this sort of information we are dealing with is 7information that is central to this Commission's 8mandate and that depriving it of that sort of 9information, without specifying what it is, is to 10constrict, at the very least, if not to impair, the 11ability of the Commission to do what it believes is 12necessary in order to investigate the complaints 13before it. I'm prepared to make substantive 14arguments on that issue, both in terms of waiver 15and in terms of mandate. 16 However, I want to start by 17acknowledging Ms. Richards' point, because she says 18not only can't you receive this evidence, you can't 19even decide whether you can receive this evidence. 20Go off to the Federal Court and let's spend 6 to 12 21months chasing that one down, and in the meanwhile 22either let's finish up what we can now and come 23back at the end and recall every witness who is 24before us who could not testify on important 25matters and now ask that witness to testify on any

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 140 2 3 4 5 6 1matters that the court may subsequently rule should 2be testified on, or let's just shut down entirely 3and wait for the result. 4 Neither of those results, in my 5submission, is appropriate or desirable, and so I 6would like to start by giving notice on an argument 7that I will make on Thursday so as to allow counsel 8to consider the argument. Frankly, it's an 9argument by way of a suggestion, and my suggestion 10is this: Counsel's position is that the privilege 11belongs to the Crown and that therefore only the 12Crown, and that is a minister of the Crown, a 13member of Her Majesty's Privy Council, and I would 14imagine she means the minister in charge of the 15government operation in question, who would be the 16Minister of National Defence, only that person, or 17maybe she's saying only the Governor General in 18Council, that is, cabinet, can waive this 19privilege. 20 I am going to ask that the 21Commissioner address a letter to the Minister of 22National Defence requesting that for purposes of 23this hearing the Minister of National Defence lift 24the redactions on a schedule of documents that we 25will prepare, documents where we believe, even

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 141 2 3 4 5 6 1though we do not understand the nature of the 2redaction at all -- and I'm not sure in those 3instances whether that even requires a resort to 4the minister, because it may not be based on 5solicitor-client or other privilege -- but in any 6case where a privilege is being claimed, where 7Commission counsel believes that what underlies the 8redaction is material to its mandate, I'm going to 9ask you, Mr. Chairman, to request from the Minister 10of National Defence that he exercise his discretion 11to lift those redactions so as to allow this 12Commission to do the work that the legislation 13requires it do and that justifies the calling of a 14hearing, of a public hearing, at significant 15expense in order to clarify important issues. 16 Just to be absolutely clear as to 17the fundamental basis for my position, and I will 18present in greater detail, but maybe not, maybe 19just in this detail, on Thursday in my formal 20presentation, I'm not basing it on a narrow reading 21of solicitor-client privilege or on the minutia of 22the formidable case law that has been assembled, 23although it is my submission that the case law is 24not at all as clear as Ms. Richards would have it, 25but my submission is based on a wider

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 142 2 3 4 5 6 1consideration. 2 This Commission is tasked with 3reviewing complaints brought against the military 4police. In order to exercise that jurisdiction, 5this Commission needs to be in a position where it 6is able to review what it was that was available to 7the military police. The documents in our 8collection of documents, with some exceptions that 9comprise documents that we have specifically 10requested from counsel representing witnesses, and 11in some cases from counsel representing the 12subjects or maybe the government -- I'm never sure 13who I'm addressing -- with those few exceptions, 14and they are to be numbered in the tens of the 15thousands of documents that we have, the other 16documents are produced from the files that were 17compiled and/or made available to the military 18police in the course of their various 19investigations. Where they were not directly 20produced to the police, they are the result of the 21police receiving that information from other bodies 22and entering it into its storehouse of knowledge 23and documents. 24 It, in my submission, would be 25ludicrous -- and I use my words carefully -- to

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 143 2 3 4 5 6 1assume that the Commission can do its job without 2being able to see the basis upon which the military 3police made their decisions, and if the documents 4were willingly and voluntarily produced to the 5military police who are, by their mandate, 6independent from the military and doubly 7independent from the Government of Canada, if those 8documents could be produced to that authority in 9order to allow that authority to conduct its 10investigations, then it follows like the night 11follows the day that a body that is designated to 12oversee how that investigation has been conducted 13should have access to no fewer documents and no 14less information than was voluntarily disclosed to 15the police. 16 So that is what I am going to 17argue. I may have to say all these words again, 18but I want to give fair notice of my argument for 19Thursday, and on Thursday I will be asking you to 20make that request. 21 MS. RICHARDS: Mr. Chairman, I'll 22state now my objection to proceeding with the 23motion on Thursday. As you can tell from the 24argument, this is a significant and important issue 25to the parties. Despite the fact that Commission

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 144 2 3 4 5 6 1counsel has had these documents for at a minimum a 2month and has had discussions with my colleagues 3about these issues, this is the first time I'm 4hearing of his intention to bring such a motion, 5and in my respectful submission that's not in 6accordance with the rules, which require full 7notice, or the considerations of fairness, openness 8and transparency that we keep hearing about in this 9proceeding. 10 To ask us to respond to such a 11motion on this short notice, in our submission, is 12not fair. I will require further time to prepare a 13fulsome response and to get appropriate 14instructions. So in terms of proceeding on 15Thursday, I would like to be clear that that is my 16position. I think it's too soon and we can't be 17ready in that time. 18 On the issue of a letter to the 19minister, and I'm not sure from Mr. Freiman's 20speech whether that is separate and apart from what 21he's talking about on Thursday, as you're well 22aware, Mr. Chairman, such a request was made in the 23Afghan detainee proceedings and it's absolutely an 24appropriate request. If you wish to proceed by way 25of a direct letter to the minister, that is

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 145 2 3 4 5 6 1obviously within your purview. However, I can tell 2you that if the request is directed to myself or 3the counsel on my team who are dealing with 4documentary production, that will be taken up to 5the minister. Your request will be communicated 6for the minister to waive privilege on various 7issues, and what his decision will be obviously I 8do not know. 9 In terms of the motion, and I just 10want to be clear what my friend is asking for the 11parties to argue before you. He appears to be 12asking that the parties agree to argue before you 13the issue of waiver of solicitor-client privilege, 14and I do want to be clear on this issue. It is our 15position that this Commission does not have the 16jurisdiction to hear that issue or to rule on that 17issue, and so we do not agree with the suggestion 18that the parties would come before you and argue 19that issue. We will be arguing the jurisdictional 20issue. 21 I think Parliament has made this 22clear, and contrary to my friend's lovely speech 23about what this Commission should or shouldn't do, 24the words of the legislation at 250.41 are very 25clear. Parliament is the one who gave you the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 146 2 3 4 5 6 1jurisdiction to conduct this investigation and in 2giving that jurisdiction to the Commission they 3specifically restricted the evidence which this 4Commission could receive and they restricted from 5receipt solicitor-client information. 6 That's a bit of a preview, but 7obviously those are the positions that we will be 8arguing before you. I think certainly the rules 9before this Commission contemplate much more notice 10than this. I don't have a notice of motion. I 11would assume that Commission counsel intends to 12provide us with a more fulsome formal notice of 13motion so that we can respond appropriately. We're 14certainly mindful of the fact that we have 15witnesses scheduled and we would do everything 16within our power to respond by next Monday, but 17again, to ask us to respond by Thursday is neither 18fair nor is it in your interest, quite frankly, 19because we will not be able to put together a 20fulsome and appropriate response in that short 21time. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. 23Are you suggesting, if I've got the interpretation, 24that's it's not possible to write to the minister 25to have him lift the redactions?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 147 2 3 4 5 6 1 MS. RICHARDS: I'm saying the 2opposite. It absolutely is possible. What I said, 3for expediency -- it's certainly within your 4purview to write directly to the minister. What 5I'm saying is to expedite matters, if you wanted to 6copy members of our team or write to members of our 7team, what I'm informing the Commission is that we 8would certainly ensure that that request was taken 9up through the proper channels so that the issue 10could be properly considered. Obviously, I have no 11role in what decision the minister makes on that 12issue. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Were I to ask 14you to look at the issue of lifting the redactions 15under some of these circumstances, how long would 16that take you to consider that? 17 MS. RICHARDS: I don't consider 18it. If you're asking me how long would it take me 19to brief up and make sure that the matter is 20brought up to the appropriate officials, I can 21start to work right away, but in terms of the 22length of time to consider waiver, that's not for 23me to consider; that's for the minister to 24consider. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm not

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 148 2 3 4 5 6 1referring to the minister, I'm referring to 2yourself and your team, as you refer to it. 3 MS. RICHARDS: Myself and my team 4do not have the power to waive solicitor-client 5privilege, so what I would say is there have been 6productive discussions among Commission counsel. 7Our team is prepared to have that discussion after 8today's hearing. If there are particular 9redactions still at issue, they will discuss that 10with Commission counsel. If at the end of the day 11they still are not able to agree as to the claim of 12solicitor-client privilege or, as I understand 13Commission counsel to be asserting, he asserts that 14even if there's a proper claim of solicitor-client 15privilege, he would like that privilege waived so 16that this Commission could receive that information 17to conduct its investigation. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you 19reviewed all of these redactions yourself to ensure 20yourself that you're comfortable that these are 21properly redacted? 22 MS. RICHARDS: No. My team has; 23counsel has. And do I have faith in the members of 24my team who have reviewed them? Yes, I do. 25 I see the issues to be twofold,

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 149 2 3 4 5 6 1Mr. Chairman. One is are they actually 2solicitor-client privilege. That is something that 3can be done through discussion. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: There's a big 5question. 6 MS. RICHARDS: Well, I don't 7understand that to be Commission counsel's 8question. His position, as I understand it -- 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: I alluded to it 10earlier and when I read some of these I myself have 11trouble figuring out where the solicitor-client -- 12I know the rules around solicitor-client, so I'm 13careful in treading on that, but I guess I'm 14asking, in terms of expediency -- I really don't 15know who I'm going to be talking to. Am I talking 16to the government or DOJ? I don't know who I'm 17talking to now in terms of lawyers, meaning 18yourself. 19 MS. RICHARDS: As I said, I'm lead 20counsel and, with all due respect, I'm quite 21certain that Commission counsel knows who they're 22talking to because throughout the course of the 23previous month he's been talking to two counsel who 24have full responsibility for dealing with the 25documentary production. As I've advised him

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 150 2 3 4 5 6 1previously, if at any time he has concerns about 2that, he can always contact me directly as lead 3counsel about those documents and I am happy to 4participate in the discussions in whatever way I 5can to resolve the issue, and that will continue. 6We're happy to have those discussions with the 7Commission counsel about particular redactions if 8they have concerns about whether or not it is 9actually solicitor-client privilege. We'll have 10those discussions. Those can happen very quickly. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: But I 12understand, even the trail of this document, from 13what I gather, to have that redacted piece now 14classified as solicitor-client based on where the 15document has been and who is involved, you know, 16that's the kind of thing I'd like somebody to look 17at. I have some real questions about it, and I 18think if you were in my spot you'd be asking the 19same question, but the roles are reversed so I'm 20asking you. 21 MS. RICHARDS: I guess I'd say 22twofold. I'm satisfied that is a proper claim of 23solicitor-client privilege. I absolutely do not 24agree with Commission counsel's view. I have been 25government counsel for my entire career. I have a

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 151 2 3 4 5 6 1particular view and experience with these issues. 2My view is that it doesn't matter if it's 3individuals; it's an institutional privilege. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: I know it's all 5arguable. 6 MS. RICHARDS: It's all arguable, 7and again, some of this comes back to, with the 8greatest of respect, Mr. Chairman, if at the end of 9the day there is a dispute about that, that's not a 10matter that Parliament has entrusted you with the 11jurisdiction to rule on. 12 While my friend may say should we 13waste time and money going to the Federal Court, I 14didn't draft this legislation but I'm bound by it, 15and the legislation specifically contemplates that 16these matters not be resolved by this Commission. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: I find it 18interesting that in the last Federal Court ruling 19Justice de Montigny mentioned the fact that it 20really should be us that's making the decision to 21seal the documents. In other words, how can the 22organization that's reviewing it, if they don't get 23to see the documents. I'm really paraphrasing it, 24and solicitor-client wasn't a piece of that but -- 25 MS. RICHARDS: Absolutely, and

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 152 2 3 4 5 6 1with respect -- 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand 3that. 4 MS. RICHARDS: -- with respect, I 5think it's a separate issue and I'm aware of the de 6Montigny decision, as you know, and I'm very 7respectful of mandate and the jurisdiction of this 8Commission. However, I'm equally bound by the 9legislation and the direction that has been given 10us by Parliament. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure we 12could go on for a while longer, but I'll save 13the... 14 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: Two issues, 15Mr. Commissioner, and I'll try to be as brief as I 16can. 17 This is at the very core of what 18it will be all about for the next 10 weeks, so it 19is important; absolutely crucial. It is a public 20inquiry. The public is listening in as we speak. 21Some of them are here, some of them in uniform. It 22is absolutely important that they gain the 23confidence that this public inquiry is going to go 24to the bottom of it, and they will turn any stone 25they need to to get to the root itself; first.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 153 2 3 4 5 6 1 Second, timing is significant. 2We're on two parallel tracks. Until we can address 3that, the more witnesses come before us, and some 4of them inhibited as to what they can say, what 5they can respond to or even what evidence we can 6prepare for them, because we haven't sorted that 7out, as we said this morning. It raises the 8possibility that we may have to recall some of them 9and the evidence may not be in the type of sequence 10we have. 11 My friend talked about a team. 12Well, the team is kind of small but we're kind of 13flexible, and if it will help the Commission to 14meet on Friday, and if we give sufficient notice to 15the Crown to make the arguments so that the 16hearings can proceed as scheduled on Monday and on, 17but we need to focus and we need to sort this out 18before we go further. 19 MR. FREIMAN: First to the issue, 20the notice. I have to say it wasn't until I began 21to prepare the evidence for this week's witnesses 22that it struck me with the force that it has how 23central some of these matters are going to be, and 24I chose today's evidence and a particular document 25to bring this before the public because the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 154 2 3 4 5 6 1document itself is a small one. The redaction is 2only a few words. It was possible to get some 3evidence, in any event, and we are not standing on 4the precipice of a slip that could have serious 5consequences in the event that the Department of 6Justice's hardline views on all these matters is 7upheld at the end of the day. That's why I chose 8this particular document, but it is only a prelude 9to evidence that we'll be hearing later this week 10and, equally important, to evidence that we will be 11hearing two and three weeks from now and I do want 12to ensure is heard in the proper form and with 13everyone's understanding. 14 Secondly, in the ordinary course 15-- and perhaps I made a mistake by presenting this 16as a motion to you to lift a specific redaction. 17Now that I have counsel's response to that, namely, 18that you don't have the jurisdiction you need to 19entertain the motion and to hear arguments back and 20forth because it doesn't much matter what you say, 21it's not for you to make that decision, it's for 22the Federal Court to make that decision, it becomes 23clear that the motion itself would only be a 24prelude to a trip to the Federal Court to try to 25stay your order in any event.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 155 2 3 4 5 6 1 That's why I came up with the 2other possibility, and that is, without conceding 3anything about the propriety of the specific 4redactions and without asking my colleagues, either 5Ms. Richards or Colonel Drapeau, to make any 6concessions about the legal propriety of the 7particular redactions, to try to address this on a 8functional basis based on the case before us, based 9on the circumstances before us, based on an issue 10that at least Ms. Richards and I both understand 11the nature of, what it is that eventually may be of 12interest for us to explore -- I can't know whether 13Colonel Drapeau is able to infer it from the 14documents or not and I'm not able to discuss it 15with him and I don't intend to -- but based on 16whatever information, with whatever fullness each 17of us may hold and have about this hearing, these 18circumstances, the mandate of this Commission and 19the path forward, not the least of which is the 20question of what functionally solicitor-client 21privilege, for one, or if it's going to be claimed, 22cabinet privilege, for another, is intended to 23accomplish, looking at all that, looking at the 24mandate of this Commission, looking at what the 25public expects by way of a public hearing in terms

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 156 2 3 4 5 6 1of an airing of relevant issues, that the most 2expedient, pragmatic and time saving recourse is to 3address the minister directly with the concerns 4that are expressed and with a request on whatever 5basis he wishes to either make this precedential or 6not make it precedential, whether he wishes to make 7it addressed only to the particular narrow 8circumstances of this case, or is minded to look 9further, or to worry further, that he be asked to 10waive solicitor-client privilege with respect to a 11list of documents and -- I can't do this in public, 12but a list of issues that we believe need to be 13explored within the confines of this Commission. 14 It's not something I suspect that 15I need to bring a motion for. I can simply make 16the request and you can act on it. From what Ms. 17Richards has said it appears that she would not 18oppose the request, although I suspect she might 19oppose the grounds upon which the request is made. 20So it may not be necessary to argue. I propose 21Thursday because it's a convenient day and it's not 22a day where we are likely to be pressed for time by 23other witness-related matters. I don't know 24whether we gain anything by pushing it over to 25Friday. I know we'll disrupt a number of

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 157 2 3 4 5 6 1previously made travel plans, not least yours and 2mine, but if that is necessary, it's necessary. 3 If Ms. Richards is saying that 4between now and Thursday is not enough time for her 5to think through the implications and to present 6you with submissions as to the desirability of 7addressing the letter, I'll have to consider that, 8but I don't think that she's going to say that, and 9if she doesn't, then I may simply ask that everyone 10in this room take this as notice of my intention to 11request the chair to address such a letter. I 12thought that it would be expedient to allow anyone 13who had submissions to make about that and about 14its desirability to have the opportunity to make 15those submissions, but I accept it doesn't have to 16be a motion. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just aside from 18the aspect of the letter, I take it the issue of 19raising the issue of a motion, you'll withdraw 20that? 21 MR. FREIMAN: Until we have 22exhausted other potential remedies, I would rather 23not condemn us to a life of trotting up and down -- 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: I take that as 25yes?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 158 2 3 4 5 6 1 MR. FREIMAN: Yes. 2 MS. RICHARDS: I would say that 3expedience is an issue, and I'm not sure if we're 4talking at cross purposes. I don't know why we 5need to wait until Thursday and I don't know why 6you need it have argument or submissions on this. 7If you'd like to send a letter to the minister 8asking for waiver of solicitor-client privilege on 9particular documents, you can do that tonight, you 10can do that this afternoon. I'm telling you as 11counsel and as an officer of the court that I will 12ensure that that request is directed up. Waiting 13until Thursday only delays things by two days. I 14don't think you need my permission or my 15submissions on that. It's always open to the 16Commission to ask that. Indeed, it was asked in 17the last proceeding. We're happy to receive it and 18we're happy to assure you that we will make all 19best efforts to get that request up. 20 What I can't give you -- 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: What do you 22mean, direct it up? We would -- 23 MS. RICHARDS: As soon as you get 24it to us -- 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: We would send it

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 159 2 3 4 5 6 1directly to the minister -- 2 MS. RICHARDS: You can do that, 3and if you'd like to copy -- 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- myself. 5 MS. RICHARDS: Yes, and if you'd 6like to copy us, we'll ensure that other officials 7are aware. As you may know, a minister's office is 8a very busy office with a lot of correspondence, 9and I'm telling you as counsel -- 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Better us cc 11than him cc. 12 MS. RICHARDS: Right, sure, that 13we get the appropriate attention. What I can't 14tell you, obviously, is how long it will take for a 15response. That's not within my control, but I can 16tell you that I will ensure that it gets attention 17as quickly as possible. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau. 19 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I have no 20problem with that. I support my friend Mr. Freiman 21in his proposal. I think it's reasonable; it's 22doable, and I think it may be the way out of the 23impasse, so the sooner we can get to it, the better 24to let the minister decide and let him decide, not 25only for the sake of this nation but the men and

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 160 2 3 4 5 6 1women in uniform that are interested in these 2proceedings overall and how we go from here to 3there. 4 MR. FREIMAN: Just allow me to 5explain why I thought it might be useful to have 6this matter addressed in an open hearing, not just 7the request to send the letter asking for a waiver 8of privilege, but a discussion of the underlying 9reasons. 10 I gave a preview, and I don't have 11to repeat it, of the reasons why in my submission 12it is not only the proper thing to do and why the 13specific circumstances of this hearing make it 14imperative to do, and I thought that it would be 15useful, both for you and for us, to hear a response 16from government counsel, because one thing I can 17assure myself and anyone else who wants to hear me 18-- I spent some time in government as well -- it is 19unlikely, after this matter leaves this room, that 20we're going to be present when the case against us 21or against the remedy that we are requesting is 22made, and I would expect that counsel is not simply 23going to act as a post office to deliver the 24request but that someone associated with the 25Department of Justice, whether it is Ms. Richards

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 161 2 3 4 5 6 1and her team or someone else, but my understanding 2of the court review is that they are all one in any 3event, but the Department of Justice, in one guise 4or another, will be called upon to offer advice to 5the minister as to how he should respond to your 6letter. And it was my hope that we would get some 7preview of that view, not in terms of any 8solicitor-client advice that is being rendered, but 9rather in terms of the policy arguments that might 10be raised against this. 11 That's obviously not something 12that we can order, or something you can order. 13It's something that, for the better running of this 14hearing, for the better education of the public and 15for the better acceptance of whatever result may 16ensue from the minister, would be extremely helpful 17to get out on the table. It's one thing to say 18that Parliament in its wisdom has placed certain 19constraints on what is admissible before this body, 20and without going into the legal arguments -- and I 21can assure you, Mr. Chairman, there are plenty of 22them -- without going into legal arguments on that, 23that's one thing. It is totally different to have 24a discussion of what the mandate of this Commission 25is, how it should be exercising that mandate, and

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 162 2 3 4 5 6 1when matters that are discussed with legal advisers 2impinge upon decisions taken, courses of action 3decided upon, courses of action not decided on, 4whether the fact that this is a person offering 5legal advice should be sufficient to make it 6impossible for this Commission to review those 7actions, those inactions, those decisions. 8 That's what I wanted to get out on 9the table. If my friend feels that it is better 10simply to give her submissions on these issues to 11the minister, again, I can't do anything about 12that. 13 MS. RICHARDS: Of course I'm not 14at liberty to discuss what advice will or won't be 15provided to the Minister of National Defence, and 16if that is the intention, I can tell you if 17Commission counsel wants to proceed on Thursday 18with his submissions on it, I will be taking no 19position and I certainly will not be putting before 20you what advice I expect will or won't be provided 21to the Minister of National Defence. I am 22constrained by the rules of professional conduct by 23virtue of my position in what I can tell this 24Commission. 25 It's not a matter of not wanting

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 163 2 3 4 5 6 1to have an open proceeding, and I really object to 2that aspersion being placed on my conduct before 3this Commission. I have certain restrictions in my 4professional conduct on what I can discuss, and I 5cannot discuss that on the open record and I won't. 6 Of course it's up to Commission 7counsel if he wants to. I think that in terms of 8timeliness I would say it's in everybody's interest 9to proceed sooner rather than later with it and to 10have the request brought up quicker. 11 MR. FREIMAN: May I simply say 12that I intended no slight and no aspersion on my 13friend's conduct. I don't believe I have ever cast 14such a public aspersion or do I intend to. If it 15was taken as such, I withdraw it. That was not the 16intent. 17 MS. RICHARDS: Thank you. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: In regards to 19this matter, this is a very complex matter in terms 20of the solicitor-client privilege and all the 21issues surrounding the redactions in documentation. 22It's not the first time that I as chair have had to 23address this issue in a hearing. 24 Sending letters to the minister, 25to me, is an important matter. It's not something

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 164 2 3 4 5 6 1that is to be taken lightly. Obviously in this 2particular case you'd be asking for a waiver to 3waive solicitor-client privilege for selected 4documents. So it's an important step to take if 5we're going to go that route, or whether or not 6we're going to have arguments on that, so that 7there's... 8 I'm going to reserve my thoughts 9on it for tonight. I want to think about it. It's 10something we didn't take lightly in other times 11that we've made those arguments and I'm not going 12to jump at that right away as well. I need to 13consider that and, should there be further 14arguments or decisions to be made, whether it be 15one day or two days, whatever the case is, then 16we'll take that time. A lot of time and money and 17personal time by the witnesses and counsel have 18been invested and this isn't something to jump at 19in an hour or two. 20 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: A simple and 21last comment, probably. When we're talking 22redaction, I just want to make sure for the record 23that we're not of all one mind, that what we're 24talking about is redactions concerning 25solicitor-client. That's one, but there's a whole

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 165 2 3 4 5 6 1lot of others. If I take this in particular, when 2you see this kind of page; so there are other 3redactions which we also need to take a look at. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: At this 5particular time we're dealing with the 6solicitor-client one and I don't want to confuse 7the issue with the other ones. They may come up as 8we go, Colonel, but I think we have to take a cup 9of water at a time. I hear you, and there are some 10concerns, but it won't be the first time we've had 11those issues and it probably won't be the last. 12 MR. FREIMAN: Just to be clear, 13this is what I was talking about this morning. 14Again, I do not want to be thought to be casting 15aspersions about the conduct of government counsel 16in fulfilling their mandate or their courtesy and 17goodwill in discussing with us redactions, the 18possibility of easing redactions, lifting 19reductions. A number of redactions, after 20discussion, have been lifted. 21 There is still a category of 22documents, a quantity of documents about which 23redactions have been made for which we have asked 24for explanations and which we do not have 25explanations. The documents Colonel Drapeau is

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 166 2 3 4 5 6 1talking about are included in that series of 2documents and anything I say today about 3solicitor-client privilege, and I expect I may have 4to expand that also to cabinet privilege in the 5event that that is being claimed with respect to 6one or two documents, but it's mostly client 7privilege. That is not to say that we are not 8mindful of the other redactions nor to say that we 9believe that our request for a further 10clarification of the basis for the redactions 11should be deferred or be put in the back seat. I 12don't think counsel understood that, but I want to 13be sure on the record to clarify that. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just in closing, 15this is a public interest hearing to address the 16allegations relative to the military police and 17what they did or didn't do and the list of 18allegations and to seek the truth and obviously to 19do that in a very timely fashion and make a finding 20on those allegations and/or not recommendations. 21 As always, we encourage counsel. 22I think more can be accomplished by counsel 23continuing to have discussions than by running off 24to a busy Federal Court that takes many, many 25months and months and months to do things. So

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 167 2 3 4 5 6 1between now and, whether it be today, tomorrow, the 2next day, as we work through these issues, I urge 3counsel to continue their discussions outside of 4this room in terms of reaching an understanding on 5issues, because hopefully we're all looking for the 6same results in terms of the goals. 7 In terms of the letter and that, 8I'll reserve that until tomorrow. I have some 9comments on how we're going to go about that. If 10there's nothing more, we still have a witness. 11 We haven't forgotten about you. 12 A. Thank you, sir. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you need a 14couple minutes now that we've finished arguing 15here? 16 A. I'm good. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: In terms of 18time, Colonel, we can take a few minutes for 19everybody to get their sea legs and we'll come 20back. 21 Do we have another witness today? 22How are we doing? 23 MR. FREIMAN: We may have to have 24the witness -- it depends really on how long... 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: I said I could

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 168 2 3 4 5 6 1stay until the street lights come on, but I know 2that's kind of hard for daycare. 3 MR. FREIMAN: I have to say I 4don't anticipate the next witness to take a long 5time. It will not be I who is leading the evidence 6of that witness so I don't want to give assurances, 7but my belief is if indeed the cross-examination of 8Major Volstad is not longer than a half hour, then 9we have a fighting chance of completing the witness 10today. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: How does that 12sound? 13 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: That's fine, 14Mr. Chair. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to 16finish this witness first and then take a couple of 17minutes before the next witness? 18 MS. RICHARDS: I would suggest 19that we complete the witness. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel, you're 21on. 22CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MAJOR VOLSTAD BY COL (RET'D) 23DRAPEAU: 24 Q. Major, good afternoon to you. 25 A. Sir.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 169 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. In your earlier testimony you 2were brought to a meeting with the RSM to discus-- 3and I'm using your words -- the aptness of a 4direction or instructions imposed upon Corporal 5Stuart Langridge during his stay at the duty 6centre. Do you remember that? 7 A. The aptness? 8 Q. The aptness; whether or not 9these were proper or correct or sufficient. 10 A. I don't remember using that 11word, but... 12 Q. You know what the word means? 13 A. Just rephrase that question, 14please. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think he's 16referring to the appropriateness. 17 BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: 18 Q. Appropriateness. 19 A. Right, okay. 20 Q. At that time was Stuart in 21your chain of command? 22 A. He would have been responding 23to the RSM and the adjutant directly at that point. 24 Q. But was he in your chain of 25command?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 170 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. He was a soldier that 2belonged to headquarters squadron administratively, 3but at that point he was directly working for the 4regimental headquarters. 5 Q. Is that a no? 6 A. That's a no. 7 Q. Because you went on to 8comment it was not your business to give an opinion 9on these conditions; that's why I'm questioning it. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. And that was because you 12didn't feel that you had to be involved? 13 A. Yes. There's a fine line 14between going into -- enforcing or imposing myself 15on somebody else's jurisdiction, if you will, and 16at this point that issue had been, I'll say owned, 17had been developed by those two individuals, and 18for me to come in late in the game and start 19inflicting my opinions without the same education 20or the same knowledge would be just wrong. 21 Q. But did you have reservations 22about these conditions at the time? 23 A. No. 24 Q. So you didn't give an 25opinion, but is it fair for me to say that you

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 171 2 3 4 5 6 1really did not have an opinion? 2 A. Can we just clarify the 3question? Do not have an opinion on the actual...? 4 Q. The appropriateness. 5 A. The appropriateness of what 6we were doing, good or bad? 7 Q. Right. 8 A. I think I stated this earlier 9in the sense that I felt that, as an institution, 10the institution was going above and beyond the call 11of duty to protect this individual and that every 12measure -- I felt comfortable that every measure 13that we could do legally and for the right reasons 14was taken into consideration. So I did have an 15opinion on that, yes. 16 Q. And your opinion was these 17conditions were appropriate? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You made mention in your 20testimony also that if these conditions were not to 21work, if the members -- Stuart that is -- could not 22rectify whatever needed to be rectified, he would 23have been released by the military. Do you 24remember that? 25 A. I think we might be mixing

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 172 2 3 4 5 6 1issues slightly. Could you -- I'm sorry; I just 2want to make sure that I'm answering the right 3question. 4 Q. You said that these 5conditions were -- if Stuart did not rectify -- and 6you didn't go into detail of that -- he would have 7been released from the military. In other words, 8if these conditions that were imposed upon him did 9not produce the intended results -- 10 A. That's a good question. So 11the conditions I was referring to had nothing to do 12with the weekend activities. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. Those were completely 15unrelated. Sorry, I shouldn't say they're 16completely unrelated. They were unrelated in the 17sense that the member had a problem with drugs and 18alcohol. If those drug and alcohol issues did not 19become resolved, the member would be released. 20 Q. And he would be released 21voluntarily or compulsorily? 22 A. There's a difference between 23voluntary withdrawal and -- 24 Q. That's why I'm asking. 25 A. In this case, if he doesn't

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 173 2 3 4 5 6 1meet the universality of service agreement between 2a member and the institution, then the member will 3be released involuntarily, and in this case if he 4would have continued on the same path, he would 5have been released involuntarily. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's just your 7opinion, correct; or did somebody tell you that? 8 A. If a member does not meet 9universality of services, they will be released. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's a force 11doctrine or force -- what is that? 12 A. It's definitely in QRNOs or 13DOEDs. If you can't do the job or you fail to meet 14the requirements, you will be released. It's 15pretty cut. And there's timelines and everything 16laid out that the person has to abide by, and if 17they don't they get released. It doesn't matter if 18it's for drug and alcohol or if it's for an injury 19-- a physical injury I mean. 20 BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: 21 Q. And you would be familiar 22with the various items where somebody could be 23released because he's become an administrative 24burden or because he can no longer serve or can no 25longer do the job that he's expected to. That's

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 174 2 3 4 5 6 1really what you're saying? 2 A. Yes. 3 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: That's all 4my questions. Thank you. 5 MS. RICHARDS: No questions. 6Thank you. 7 MR. FREIMAN: No re-examine. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: That was quicker 9than I thought. 10 That concludes your testimony. I 11want to thank you for attending today and your 12service to Canada. Your service is certainly 13appreciated. Thank you. 14 We'll take 15 minutes. Is that 15good? So at 25 after sharp we'll come back and 16we'll start the next witness. 17--- Upon recessing at 3:13 p.m 18--- Upon resuming at 3:28 p.m. 19 MS. CERNACEK: Good afternoon. 20The next witness will be Warrant Officer Hiscock. 21SWORN: WARRANT OFFICER HISCOCK 22 MS. CERNACEK: It has been brought 23to my attention that Mr. Hiscock has been observed 24talking with the previous witness. There has been 25a ruling of exclusion of witnesses that I'm aware

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 175 2 3 4 5 6 1of, and I believe it is to counsel to make sure 2that the spirit and the letter of that ruling is 3enforced. 4 MS. RICHARDS: I think members who 5serve together who say hello to each other in the 6hallway violate neither the spirit nor the intent 7of the rule. Frankly, I'm surprised that that 8issue would be raised. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau. 10 COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU: I do not 11disagree that one can greet another, but not behind 12a closed door. The perception, and we're so early 13in the proceedings, is absolutely important. 14 Mr. Chair, your direction was that 15a witness would be waiting outside until the 16testimony of the prior one be done, and I think 17it's in keeping with the same procedure that the 18witnesses not be allowed to conclave together 19minutes before testifying. That's all. 20 MS. RICHARDS: With all due 21respect, I don't think the witnesses were in a 22closed room together. What I would say is I think 23it's important that the public also be aware that 24individuals who appear before this Commission are 25entitled to fairness as well, and that fairness

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 176 2 3 4 5 6 1includes the ability to be treated like human 2beings, to be able to say hello to their colleagues 3and to meet with their counsel. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Warrant Officer, 5how you are you this morning? 6 A. Good, sir. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: I should say 8this afternoon. I lost part of a day. 9 A. That's fine. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just to clear 11the air, we do have the exclusion of witnesses 12rule. Did you have a private conversation in a 13closed room? 14 A. No, we did have breakfast 15this morning together. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry? 17 A. I am assuming you're talking 18about Sergeant Bowden. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 20 A. We had breakfast together 21this morning. We talked about a number of things. 22Her and I are friends, along with her husband. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: And Major 24Volstad? 25 A. Last night I did talk to him.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 177 2 3 4 5 6 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 2 A. Again, it wasn't in a closed 3room. It was in the bar at the hotel. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Not about the 5case, sir? 6 A. We mentioned a few things, 7but nothing specific. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: About your 9evidence or anything? 10 A. No, nothing. I can't think 11of anything I said. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: I accept that 13and we'll move on. It's just always a little bit 14of a caution, and it gets people's concerns up if 15there's some discussion, but I am aware that people 16who have served together and, as Colonel Drapeau 17would know from his service, that there would be 18some communication between witnesses. To keep it 19absolutely where we wouldn't have any is almost 20impossible. I know going back into my close-to-40 21years of experience, I know where that kind of 22happens. So we're not questioning your credibility 23or anything like that. I just wanted to clear the 24air and hopefully we can move on and everybody can 25just be a little careful. You know what I mean.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 178 2 3 4 5 6 1 Please proceed. 2 MS. CERNACEK: Thank you, Mr. 3Chairman. 4EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. CERNACEK: 5 Q. Warrant Hiscock, I believe 6you have been in the forces for quite a while. 7 A. Twenty-six years. 8 Q. And you have been to 9Afghanistan? 10 A. Twice. 11 Q. When was that? 12 A. Two thousand four, 2005, and 13again in 2007. 14 Q. And you have been promoted to 15warrant officer when? 16 A. July 1, 2010. Just over two 17years ago -- almost two and a half years ago. 18Sorry, January 1, 2010. 19 Q. All right. So in 2008 your 20rank would have been? 21 A. Sergeant. 22 Q. What is your trade? 23 A. My trade is crewman, so that 24deals with armoured vehicles, their crewing, 25maintenance and fighting.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 179 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. I will bring you directly to 2the date of 15 March, 2008. Can you tell us what 3was your duty on that day? 4 A. On March 2008 I had recently 5had surgery, so I was still in the post-op recovery 6period and on March 2008 my duty was to take over 7from the duty officer so he could attend a funeral. 8I would cover for him while he was at the funeral, 9and then he was going to take over the duty 10afterwards. 11 Q. All right. To be a duty 12officer, was this something that you did often? 13 A. Yes. At the regiment I've 14probably done it well over a dozen times. 15 Q. So is it a position -- how 16does one -- how is one tasked to be a duty officer 17on a given day? 18 A. There has been some changes 19over the time, but generally speaking it's not the 20provosts and above. In this particular day, 21because we were short staffed, there were only two 22people on duty -- there normally four; a duty 23officer, a duty NCO, a duty corporal and duty 24driver, but that particular day there was only 25myself and the duty driver, so I was actually

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 180 2 3 4 5 6 1filling two rules, the role of duty officer and the 2duty NCO. Sometimes the role of duty officer and 3duty NCO is combined and they only have three 4people on. That happens a fair amount with the 5type of manpower issues. 6 Q. What were these tasks that 7you had on that particular day? 8 A. You're referring to the 9normal tasks or the extra tasks of that day? 10 Q. On the 15th March, the 11overall tasks that you had. 12 A. Well, the normal standing 13tasks as a duty officer/duty NCO is to ensure the 14building is locked up, proper doors are unlocked, 15safeguard the building as per se, along with the 16single quarters, along with our stables, those type 17of issues. My additional duties that day also 18involved looking after Corporal Langridge and also 19dealing with the funeral that was happening at that 20same time. 21 Q. So can you take us to when 22you came in on that day? 23 A. I arrived at work about 7:30 24in the morning. I took over the duty from the 25preceding duty officer. His name escapes me now,

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 181 2 3 4 5 6 1who it was. Also during that time I spoke with 2Master Corporal Fitzpatrick. We did the normal 3duty handover issues that you sign for all the 4different kit and check to make sure the duty book 5is up and stuff like that. On that time, though, 6they also told me verbally that Corporal Langridge 7was staying in the defaulters room and that he had 8a number of restrictions, and they told me a number 9of restrictions verbally. One was that he -- 10 Q. Let me just stop you. You 11said there was the previous duty officer and Master 12Corporal Fitzpatrick, so which one told you these 13restrictions? 14 A. I know Master Corporal 15Fitzpatrick told me a few of the restrictions. I 16believe the other duty officer was there at the 17time and he just kind of emphasized it. That's the 18best I can remember. 19 Q. All right. So what were you 20told? What were these restrictions? 21 A. That Corporal Langridge had 22to stay in the defaulters room, he had a 2100 hour 23curfew, he was allowed to leave but he had to come 24back every two hours to sign in. He had to attend 25all of his appointments, and when they told me that

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 182 2 3 4 5 6 1I looked at his appointment card and there was no 2appointments on that day so I wasn't really worried 3about it. He also had to take all of his 4medication. I looked at the medication box and it 5looked like to me it was up to date so I wasn't too 6concerned about it. 7 Q. So the appointment card 8you're referring to, where was it? 9 A. If I remember, it was taped 10to the back of the medicine box. So if the 11medicine box is this book, it's about this big. 12It's like, I guess we would call it a blister pack, 13I think they call that. Anyway, there's a number 14of compartments in it and each one was like a day 15of the week and there was four or five compartments 16for each day. They were all filled up except for 17one or two that he had taken for that first day, so 18it would have been basically a brand new box. 19 Now, on the back of that, if you 20flipped it upside down, his appointment cards were 21taped to the back of it. 22 Q. And the box with the 23medication was where? 24 A. At the duty centre there was 25kind of like a counter and in one of the drawers,

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 183 2 3 4 5 6 1that's where his medication was. So if I'm sitting 2at the duty desk, looking out to my right would be 3where the main entrance is, there's a number of 4drawers, and on this drawer here on the left-hand 5side, in the top drawer was his medication. 6 Q. All right. So you said one 7of the restrictions that was communicated to you 8was that he had to sleep in the defaulters room, 9right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you describe the location 12of the desk that you would have been in with 13respect to the defaulters room? 14 A. Again, if I'm sitting at the 15duty desk, off to my right would be the main 16entrance, off to my left, probably right behind me 17basically is our office. So back to my left behind 18that would be where the defaulters room was, 19probably about five metres from this spot here, and 20in that room is obviously a door and there's two 21beds and two lockers, and that's where, when we 22have defaulters, that's where they say. 23 Q. When you came in that 24morning, was there anyone present in the room? 25 A. Actually in the defaulters

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 184 2 3 4 5 6 1room? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. No. At that time Corporal 4Langridge was at breakfast, and Master Corporal 5Fitzpatrick was the preceding duty officer that 6told me that. 7 Q. That he was at breakfast when 8you came in? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you tell us the time when 11you came in? 12 A. Seven-thirty. 13 Q. So it is either Master 14Corporal Fitzpatrick or the previous duty officer 15that showed you the sign-in sheet and the 16medication box. Did he show you any other 17document? 18 A. No. 19 Q. So it is my understanding 20that the restrictions were told -- were 21communicated to you only verbally. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. All right. Let me direct you 24to Tab 1 of the book that's in front of you, and 25you see the document. Do you recognize it?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 185 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What is it? 3 A. This is the sign-up sheet 4that I saw that morning. Those are my initials, 5TPH, on the far right-hand side. 6 Q. Did you know what are the 7initials above yours? 8 A. I believe it was Captain 9Leonard Dunn. 10 Q. Who would that be? 11 A. Captain Leonard Dunn? I 12think he was the preceding duty officer, but I 13don't remember. 14 Q. So the first initial that we 15see that is yours, it's next to "time in" it says, 169 o'clock. 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. What does that mean? 19 A. That's the time he came back 20at. So he went to breakfast at 7:10 and he came 21back at 9 o'clock. 22 Q. So are we to understand that 23the time out, when it says 7:10, you were not 24present? 25 A. Correct.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 186 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. All right. Did you since 2that day see a document listing any or all of the 3conditions that you were briefed about on that 4morning? 5 A. Yes, I did. When I was 6interviewed by the MPs on the 18th of March, I 7believe it was, they showed me another document 8with all his restrictions on it. That was the 9first time I actually saw that document. 10 Q. All right. So I'll refer you 11to Tab 4. Is this the sheet that you were shown by 12the MPs? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you remember the date when 15you were interviewed? 16 A. The 18th of March, which is 17indicated here when I signed it. 18 Q. So these are again your 19initials? 20 A. These are my initials and I 21wrote the 18th of March on there. 22 Q. So if we go through the 23restrictions or conditions that are here just to 24compare with what you were briefed about. So if 25you maybe could read through them one by one and

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 187 2 3 4 5 6 1tell us compared to the briefing that you received. 2 A. Also I'd like to add, too, 3one of the things they also told me, before I get 4to this, was that he was not to be considered a 5defaulter. That was one of the things they said, 6so to make that clarification, because defaulters 7have additional things like inspections, so he 8wasn't a defaulter. 9 Q. Right. So when they told you 10this information, that he's not to be considered a 11defaulter, what did you understand; how different 12his conditions were from a defaulters' ones? 13 A. Well, how the conditions are 14different from a defaulter? 15 Q. Well, they told you that he's 16not to be considered a defaulter, so how did you 17understand this piece of information? Why was he 18not to be considered -- or how did that translate 19in reality? 20 A. Well, for me that would 21translate that he wasn't going to have inspections. 22Defaulters get inspections. They also have drill, 23so he wasn't going to get drill. They also do 24additional work, like, for example, they have an 25inspection around, I think it's 1800 at night, and

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 188 2 3 4 5 6 1then they do additional work until 2100 hours at 2night. That additional work may be sweeping the 3hangar floors. So because he wasn't a defaulter he 4would not be doing something like that. And there 5were tasks that were assigned either by the RSM or 6by the duty staff to improve the regimental lines. 7 Q. And so the defaulters room, 8just by its name, one would assume that it's for 9defaulters, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So is it something that has 12happened other times, that someone who is not to be 13considered a defaulter, to your knowledge, has been 14sleeping there? 15 A. Yes, it has happened. 16 Q. Okay. So let's go back to 17the conditions, Tab 4. (a) Member will wear a 18uniform during normal duty hours and perform duties 19directed by the RSM. 20 From what you just told us 21previously, I did not recall that this condition 22was -- 23 A. No, but you wouldn't have to 24state that because this is something that, even 25though it's in here, would be expected. Obviously

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 189 2 3 4 5 6 1every soldier below the rank of an officer is going 2to do every duty directed to him by the RSM. That 3should go without saying. Obviously if it's during 4normal working hours he should be wearing his 5uniform. Again that goes without saying. 6 Q. What are the normal duty 7hours? 8 A. Normally, on a normal day, 9let's say it's a Friday, your normal duty hours 10will be from 8 o'clock until 1600. 11 Q. And I believe the 15th of 12March was a Saturday? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. So (b); it speaks about a 15workday, normal workday from 8:00 to 1630. 16 A. M'hm. 17 Q. So, again, it's Saturday, 18it's not a workday, and weekends will be free. 19Were you told this, that weekends would be free? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you assume it from what 22you were told? 23 A. Yes, because weekends would 24be free as implied with his restrictions. So he 25still could go wherever he wanted to go, and this

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 190 2 3 4 5 6 1was told to me as they explained the restrictions. 2He could still go out, go to the Canex, go to the 3gym, go down to Tim Hortons, whatever he wants, as 4long as he was back in that two-hour window. 5 Q. All right. So (c) the 6restrictions; 1, live in the regimental duty centre 7bedded in the defaulters room. That one was told 8to you? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. 2, At no time will the door 11be closed. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Was that communicated to you? 14 A. At this point I don't 15remember. It very well may have been; I just don't 16remember. 17 Q. All right. Did you notice if 18the door was closed or not? 19 A. When I first got there at 207:30, the door was open. He was not -- obviously 21wasn't there. 22 Q. Okay. The curfew you 23mentioned. Report every two hours you mentioned. 24Escorts; were you briefed about the escorts? 25 A. I think so, but I can't

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 191 2 3 4 5 6 1remember. I do remember there was some talk about 2a duty driver driving him to his AA meetings, 3because he had to attend his appointments, and he 4had no appointments that day, so they may have said 5the duty driver will drive him to his AA meetings. 6I just don't remember now. 7 Q. Right. Number 6, All 8prescribed medication will be held by the duty 9staff. However, the member is responsible to take 10the proper dose on time. So how were you to 11monitor this? 12 A. It wasn't explained to me 13that I had to watch him. It just was explained 14that he had to take his medications. 15 Q. So what did you understand; 16how were you going to monitor this? 17 A. You know, honestly, I never 18gave it a thought because when I looked at the box 19he was up to date with medications. I did not 20think the four hours ahead saying, okay, I'm going 21to be here at exactly 1205 to make sure he takes 22his medication. I didn't think that far ahead. 23 Q. Right. And did you 24understand that these conditions were to be 25enforced primarily by yourself or was there someone

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 192 2 3 4 5 6 1else as well to enforce them? 2 A. No, I would enforce these 3conditions. 4 Q. So it was the duty officer's 5responsibility? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Last condition; when he 8leaves the confines of the Harvey Building he will 9inform the duty officer of where he's going and the 10time and phone number. Were you given this 11information, that he had this restriction? 12 A. Maybe on the sign-out sheet 13when we talked about the sign-out sheet. Again, I 14don't remember. Probably, though, because it's all 15there. 16 Q. I know that it's been four 17years so it's difficult to remember all the 18details, and you have given an interview to the NIS 19on the 18th, which was two days after, so I will 20direct you to page 43 at Tab 8. It's line 10 to 2112. If you can read that for yourself. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. So it says that you don't 24remember that you were briefed about the door being 25closed.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 193 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. I don't remember. It might 2have -- I think they briefed me but, like I say, 3three days afterwards, at that point in time I 4don't remember if that was the thing. I'm not 5sure. 6 Q. So you did not remember 7during the NIS interview either? 8 A. I think they said it, but 9no... 10 Q. All right. And page 99, 11again the transcript, it's line 12 to line 19, if 12you could read that for yourself. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. This actually speaks about 15not the briefing itself but about the fact that if 16this were ever done, to have somebody sleep with 17the door open in order for him to be controlled by 18the duty officer. Do you know of any other 19occurrence of such? 20 A. No. I'd also like to add, 21though, the duty staff at night, when everything is 22done, usually around 2330, midnight, all the doors 23are locked and they all go to bed. They sleep 24right beside the defaulter, but they're not 25actually standing there watching him all night.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 194 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. So how many rooms, bedrooms, 2are there in the duty centre? 3 A. Two; the defaulter room has 4that two beds in it, then the actual duty staff 5room, which is basically right beside it, which has 6four beds in it. 7 Q. So who sleeps in the duty 8staff room? 9 A. The duty staff. 10 Q. The four people that you 11mentioned before? 12 A. Yes. In this case there was 13only two, but when you do have four, there's four 14beds there. 15 Q. When you were briefed about 16these conditions, did you know about the existence 17of the restrictions before coming in on that 18morning? 19 A. No. 20 Q. And did you know about Stuart 21Langridge living in the defaulters room? 22 A. Before the 15th of March? 23 Q. That's right. 24 A. Yes, I knew he was staying on 25base but maybe not in the defaulters room, because

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 195 2 3 4 5 6 1I ran into him a couple days earlier in the R2 2shop. So I knew he was staying on base, I just 3wasn't sure exactly where, but I think I knew he 4was staying at the defaulters room. 5 Q. All right. So coming in on 6that day, when you bring yourself back in time, my 7assumption would with be that if you knew he was 8staying there you wouldn't be surprised by this 9information, and if you knew -- so what did you 10know of the reasons why he was staying there? 11 A. Before I came in? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. The reason why I understood 14he was staying there, because his wife threw him 15out. He had come back from the hospital and his 16wife had said, "You can't come home," and that's 17why he was staying there. 18 Q. But why wasn't he staying 19somewhere else if his wife kicked him out? 20 A. Well, we've done this in the 21past. Sometimes guys, or wives kick them out and 22they have nowhere to go. They might not have any 23money, whatever the case may be, so guys have 24stayed in the duty centre, slept there for a night 25or two, and then gone to stay with friends or

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 196 2 3 4 5 6 1whatever. So it's been done in the past. It's 2more of a favour. I mean, a hotel is a hundred 3bucks or whatever, so... 4 Q. And how did you know of the 5reasons why he was staying at the defaulters? How 6did this come to your attention? 7 A. I can't remember. 8 Q. Well, have you ever seen 9similar conditions or restrictions put on a member? 10 A. Yes, I have. 11 Q. In what context? 12 A. Usually -- sometimes there 13will be -- restrictions can be more restrictive 14than this or less restrictive than this. Generally 15it's done to try and take a soldier who has just 16kind of fallen off of the straight and narrow path 17just a little bit, you know, he's got one foot in 18the mud kind of thing, and you just want to nudge 19him back on the path. By doing stuff like this -- 20it's easy for a soldier to say that -- maybe he's 21hanging around with the wrong crowd and he can say, 22"Well, I can't come to visit you tonight because 23the army has got me on all these restrictions; I 24have to stay here." It gives them an excuse; it 25gives the guy an excuse to kind of break away from

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 197 2 3 4 5 6 1the path and also helps hold him accountable, 2because there's people watching him, help bring him 3back on that right path. 4 Q. When you were briefed in the 5morning, were you told either by Master Corporal 6Fitzpatrick or by the previous duty officer what 7the purpose of the restrictions was? 8 A. In reference to that...? 9 Q. To Corporal Langridge. 10 A. Yeah. I do remember a 11conversation in reference to him. I think it was 12Master Corporal Fitzpatrick. He told me that this 13was Corporal Langridge's last chance and that if he 14didn't abide by these restrictions, because he had 15broken so many of the other ones before -- and I'm 16not privy to what all those restrictions were -- 17that the adjutant had had enough and that he was 18going to start to release him from the forces. So 19this was his last -- it wasn't exactly like a C and 20P, but in a way it was. This was his last chance 21to prove that he could function in the military. 22 Q. When you refer to C and P you 23refer to what? 24 A. Counselling and probation. 25 Q. And what is that?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 198 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. It's an administrative 2procedure that helps to bring soldiers, points out 3their deficiencies and helps to bring them back 4into the military community. If they fail to fix 5their deficiencies, then they are released from the 6forces. 7 Q. What kind of deficiencies 8would that be? 9 A. Well, they can be any type of 10deficiency. In some cases it's drugs, alcohol; in 11other cases it can be job performance. It's 12something that is generally within the soldier's 13control that he can fix. 14 Q. Now that you have seen the 15condition list that you were shown by the NIS with 16the condition that he had to sleep with his door 17open, was this condition discussed and the purpose 18of this condition discussed? 19 A. No, I don't remember it being 20discussed. That's not to say that -- it may have 21been discussed, I just don't remember it. 22 Q. How did you understand it? 23 A. How did I understand -- 24 Q. The condition, it's purpose. 25 A. To keep the door open?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 199 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. Well, if it was discussed, I 3don't remember it. So if it was discussed at the 4NIS interview, I guess it's kind of a moot point, 5but I guess they wanted me to ensure that he wasn't 6doing anything that was not above board. 7 Q. When Master Corporal 8Fitzpatrick told you that this is Corporal 9Langridge's last chance, did you know why was that? 10 A. I knew he had some issues 11with alcohol, so I just naturally made that 12assumption, and I may have known about some of his 13drug issues but I don't remember. I can't 14remember. 15 Q. After the 15th of March did 16you get an explanation about the conditions? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. From somewhere else? 19 A. Yes, I did. I think it was 20the 18th of March, maybe the 19th of March, I don't 21remember. Then Chief Warrant Officer Ross called 22me into his office and he had a discussion with me 23about why he put these conditions -- or I shouldn't 24say he put them, but why these conditions were 25placed on him and in that context. At that time he

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 200 2 3 4 5 6 1also told me I had to go see the mental health to 2make sure that there was nothing wrong with me, 3which I did. 4 Q. Why did he tell you that? 5 A. You know, I don't know, but 6he tells me to do something, I do it. 7 Q. All right. So what kind of 8explanation did he give you about the conditions? 9 A. Well, he said that he thought 10that they were the most robust conditions he could 11put on Stu but yet still leaving him some dignity, 12and I do remember he used the word "dignity" 13because I think he thought maybe... I'll just end 14it at that. 15 Q. Well, I was going to ask you 16what did you understand when he said that it's 17going to preserve him some dignity. 18 A. Well, in the past when we've 19done actual suicide watches, you know, you stay 20with the guy the whole time; you watch him take a 21shower, you walk into the bathroom with him. 22That's not, in most people's understanding of 23dignity, that would not be dignity. So I think in 24this aspect Chief Warrant Officer Ross was trying 25to give Stu a little bit of leeway so he didn't

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 201 2 3 4 5 6 1feel that he was a prisoner, a defaulter. 2 Q. All right. So you referred 3to a suicide watch. Was your understanding that 4this was not a suicide watch because he had more 5leeway? 6 A. Well, the term "suicide 7watch" was used that morning. However, I don't 8really think that's the correct term. I think it 9should have been really -- the term that should 10have been "imposed restrictions" because he was 11given restrictions and he could still do what he 12wanted in that time frame. For example, he had a 13two-hour window that he could, like I say, drive 14down to Tim Hortons, go to McDonalds, as long as he 15was back in those two hours, so I think it was a 16bad term used that morning. 17 Q. You said "that morning." 18Which morning was that? 19 A. On the 15th of March. 20 Q. And who used the term? 21 A. I think it was Master 22Corporal Fitzpatrick, but I'm not sure. It could 23have been Lieutenant Dunn. 24 Q. And can you put a little bit 25more meat about the context in which the term was

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 202 2 3 4 5 6 1used? 2 A. Not really. I think the 3conversation went something like, "Stu is staying 4here; these are his restrictions; he's on suicide 5watch; however here's his restrictions," in that 6context. So the term was thrown out there but it 7wasn't really -- it was an improper term to use. 8 Q. I mean, the term "suicide 9watch" are quite telling, the word "suicide" there. 10Were you familiar with that term? 11 A. We used it before, yes. 12 Q. And so have you yourself done 13suicide watches before? 14 A. Yes, only once before, in 15this particular case, like in an actual suicide 16watch, and we actually -- in this particular case 17the individual, and I don't remember his name now, 18but we actually took everything away from him. He 19was given only his underwear and socks, some 20coveralls, and then myself and a number of other 21soldiers took turns sitting with him the whole 22time, so probably three days. 23 Q. And the reason for that was? 24 A. In that particular case? 25 Q. Yes.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 203 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. He had threatened to harm 2himself, which his wife then reported to the RCMP. 3The army then picked him up and we kept him on 4these conditions until he was able to see a 5counsellor. At that time the counsellor said -- 6well, I don't know what the counsellor said but the 7restrictions were lifted, so I assume the 8counsellor said he's not in danger of committing 9suicide. His restrictions were lifted and he was 10returned back to duty. 11 Q. All right. So when Officer 12Fitzpatrick used this term, did you make a 13connection between someone who has threatened to 14harm himself and Corporal Langridge? 15 A. Not really, because in this 16particular case they were given a number of 17restrictions. In every other case we didn't have 18the restriction other than the fact that you're 19going to stay with him. Well, you've taken 20everything away from him; he has nothing, so 21there's nothing he can really do, but you'll stay 22with him. In Corporal Langridge's case he was 23given a lot of leeway. So again I'd like to point 24out that I think it was a bad term to use "suicide 25watch." It should have been a term maybe "imposed

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 204 2 3 4 5 6 1restrictions." 2 Q. The term "suicide watch," 3just from a layman's perspective, refers to the 4reason why a watch would be imposed, whereas 5"imposed restrictions" just describes the fact 6there are restrictions but does not refer at all to 7the reason. So I'm trying to understand what 8you're saying. Are you saying that there was no 9reason behind these restrictions; there was no 10reason to watch for him not to commit suicide, or 11not? 12 A. I would say not because of 13the restrictions -- I think I understand your 14question, but I would say not because, given his 15terms of conditions here, he was allowed to leave 16for two hours. To go back to use the term "suicide 17watch," you can do a lot of damage in two hours if 18you wanted to, so again I would like to say that -- 19we used that term, but we used it incorrectly. 20 Q. So if I rephrase what you 21just said, do I understand properly that one of the 22reasons that you wouldn't refer to it as a suicide 23watch is because he had this window open of two 24hours where he was basically not watched? 25 A. Correct.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 205 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. So you could not monitor him 2not to commit suicide? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. All right. When the RSM 5explained the conditions to you, did he explain how 6the conditions came about? 7 A. You're talking after the 8fact? 9 Q. Yes. I believe you said it 10was on the 18th or the 19th that you spoke with the 11RSM? 12 A. Yes. I don't remember. 13 Q. And did he tell you who 14actually imposed those conditions? 15 A. Yes, he said he did. I don't 16know if that was under direction, but he told me 17that he imposed those restrictions on him. 18 Q. And did you know for how long 19these restrictions were in place? 20 A. Before or after? 21 Q. Both. 22 A. No. 23 Q. And did you know -- first 24let's focus on the 15th of March. On the 15th 25March when you were briefed, did you know what

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 206 2 3 4 5 6 1would happen, you as the person who was responsible 2for enforcing the conditions, if Corporal Langridge 3did not follow them, the restrictions? 4 A. I don't know. There was no 5discussion on that aspect with Master Corporal 6Fitzpatrick or Lieutenant Dunn. I assume I would 7write a report, give it to the RSM and let the RSM 8make the decision on what to do. 9 Q. We'll step back to the 15th 10of March. So what happened after you were briefed? 11 A. Again, that was between 7:30 12and 8 o'clock. I had a number of other duties at 13the time, so I did those duties until 8:30, 149:00ish. Around that time I ran back into -- I was 15back in the duty centre and Stu was there along 16with some other soldiers. I thanked him for 17cleaning the sidewalk. 18 Q. Sorry; you thanked who? 19 A. Stu, Corporal Langridge, 20because he had cleaned the sidewalk on his own. 21Normally the duty staff clean the sidewalks, so he 22had just grabbed a shovel and went out and cleaned 23it, so I made a joke about it. I said, "Hey, I got 24some more shoveling if you want." He declined. We 25talked about a number of different things that were

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 207 2 3 4 5 6 1going on that day. 2 Now, I don't remember exactly the 3order, how the next little bit came about, but it 4was between 9:00 and 11 o'clock. There's a number 5of other tasks I was involved in too which took me 6away from the duty desk, because of the funeral at 7the time. But we did have a number of 8conversations and in one of those conversations Stu 9talked to me about his medication change, that the 10doctors -- in his words, he said the doctors had 11changed his medications. Now, I don't know if that 12meant they changed the medications they were giving 13him or if they changed the times he was taking 14them, but there was a change. And he also stated 15that normally his medications take away his bad 16dreams, and those were the words he used, "bad 17dreams," but the night before they did not so he 18had been up most of the night and he was quite 19tired. 20 During that time, too, Stu left a 21number of times to go back to the shacks. I 22assumed he was doing his laundry, because he was 23allowed -- that was one of the things that Master 24Corporal Fitzpatrick told me, that he had a room in 25the shacks where he was allowed to go do his

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 208 2 3 4 5 6 1laundry and stuff like that. 2 Also, I understand too that he was 3probably a little bit tired because he didn't 4sleep, so there was a bed there, he might have 5grabbed some -- it was a little quieter over there, 6you don't have all these people walking around, so 7he may have had a nap or something over there too. 8That's quite possible. 9 Anyways, he kept coming back in 10his two-hour window. 11 Q. Sorry, I will interrupt you 12for a second. You mentioned two interactions with 13Corporal Langridge, one about shoveling the snow 14and one about the medication. Do you remember if 15it was two interactions or one in one time frame? 16 A. It was one conversation. 17 Q. One conversation? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And would you be able to 20situate it in time? 21 A. Not really. The more I think 22about it -- at first I thought it was 9 o'clock. 23It may have been closer to 11:00, but I know it was 24between 11:00 and 9:00. So I'm not sure, but I 25know it was between 9 o'clock in the morning and 11

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 209 2 3 4 5 6 1o'clock. I know it was between those two times, 2that time frame. 3 Q. Was this something that 4you've heard Corporal Langridge tell you, something 5like his medication? Was this the first time you 6heard him speak about this with you? 7 A. His medication? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So what was your reaction to 11that? 12 A. I was less than supportive. 13 Q. What do you mean by that? 14 A. There has been a trend, in my 15opinion -- and this is just my opinion -- of some 16soldiers faking PTSD symptoms and to gain financial 17benefits. I may have made an assumption that he 18was doing that. I may have expressed that in my 19body language to him. At that point we stopped 20talking about it. 21 Q. So what would have been your 22body language? 23 A. Probably would have rolled my 24eyes, sighed, said, "Oh, here's another one." 25 Q. Said?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 210 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. Said something along the 2lines of oh -- rolled my eyes, sighed, thought to 3myself, "Here's another one." 4 Q. All right. Did he react to 5that? 6 A. Yeah, because the 7conversation about that stopped and the 8conversation turned to -- in this case we started 9talking about -- I think it was the same 10conversation, we started talking about a movie that 11some of us had seen the night before, or some guys 12had seen it the night before; I'd seen like a week 13or so before. 14 Q. All right. So you refer to 15the fact that you thought that he was feigning 16PTSD. Why did you think that? 17 A. Well, there have been 18soldiers that have faked it in the past, in my 19opinion. I'm no doctor, but, you know, if you look 20at it logically, when you give a soldier an extra 21$1,500, $2,000 a month, tell them not to come to 22work, tell them to sit home on his butt, there's no 23incentive to get better. That's my opinion, but 24I'm not a doctor. So I may have made that 25assumption.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 211 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. So have you seen people that 2claimed that they have PTSD that you thought did 3not fake it? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. How would you differentiate 6between the two? 7 A. I think a prime example of 8that would be Master Corporal Fitzpatrick. He's a 9prime example of a soldier that comes to work, 10works out, does his job, but yet does have issues, 11and at the time I think he was a very good soldier, 12because he worked through his issues, in my 13opinion. 14 Q. So this assumption that you 15had about Corporal Langridge, did you come to it on 16that day, the 15th of March, or did you have it 17previously? 18 A. No, on that day, when he told 19me. And like I say, it was more of -- it was not 20really -- I didn't come to a conclusion; I just 21maybe did have a reaction. That would probably be 22a better way of wording it. 23 Q. So he tells you that he takes 24medication and that because of the medication, or 25the change of the medication, he is having bad

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 212 2 3 4 5 6 1dreams and he cannot sleep, and that brings you to 2the conclusion that he's faking PTSD. I'm not 3exactly clear on the connection between the two. 4 A. I don't remember everything 5that was said. This is definitely the part that I 6remember that was said. I'm sure there was more 7that was said that led me to go down that road, but 8off the top of my head I don't remember what all 9was said at that time. That's all I can remember. 10 Q. Did you discuss this, 11Corporal Langridge feigning PTSD, with someone else 12on that day or at some other time? 13 A. No, that was just my own 14thought. 15 Q. Did you know why he was 16taking medication? 17 A. I knew some of the issues. I 18knew he had an alcohol dependency issue and I 19understand from a previous conversation that he may 20have had some anger issues, and I also understood 21that he had some illegal drug issues, so all those 22issues put together. 23 Q. So you knew all this on the 2415th of March? 25 A. Yes. I didn't know the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 213 2 3 4 5 6 1complete -- how involved he was with the drug 2issue, but I did know that he had alcohol 3dependency issues and, like I say, we had a 4conversation probably over a year, maybe a year and 5a half prior, about an issue with his wife. 6 Q. We'll get back to that 7afterwards. 8 So I would just like to situate as 9much as possible the timing of the conversation 10with respect to the sign-ins on the sign-in sheet. 11It's Tab 1 again. We can see the first initials 12that are yours are beside 9 o'clock. 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And then there is the one 15beside 11:00, which is time in. Would that be in 16this time frame? 17 A. Yes. It would have been 18between 9:00 and 11:00. 19 Q. And when we see time in at 2011:00, and then time out 11:00, so it means that at 2111:00 he just came in and out, does it? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And before that there is time 24in, 9:00, and time out, it's not entirely clear 25what's written there.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 214 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. I believe it's 9:05. So that 2conversation may have taken part between 9 o'clock 3and 9:05. 4 Q. Do you remember him coming to 5the centre in between sign-ins? 6 A. No, I don't. 7 Q. So is it that you don't 8remember or is it your recollection that he came 9only to sign in? 10 A. I don't remember. 11 Q. All right. So from the 12conversation that you just told us about, can you 13continue with the rest of the day? 14 A. So that was between 9:00 and 1510:00. I had a number of other duties -- sorry, 169:00 and 11:00. I had a number of other duties 17that I was doing during that time. At 11 o'clock, 18Stu comes back in. He walked in and he walked out 19immediately right away; signed the sheet. 20 Q. I'm sorry, I was distracted. 21I couldn't follow what you were saying. 22 A. At 11 o'clock I do remember 23him walking in. He walked in, signed the sheet and 24walked out right away. I wasn't at the duty desk; 25I was down the hall but did see him walk in.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 215 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. So does it mean that all the 2inscriptions here are Corporal Langridge's 3handwriting except the initials? 4 A. I can't speak for the first 5ones, the LD, the LD and the LD on the first three, 6but from when I came in, from 9:05, that is his 7handwriting except for my initials. 8 Q. All right. Please go on. 9You were at 11:00. 10 A. Sorry. He came in and left 11right away. Again, between 11:00 and 12:00 I had a 12number of other duties that I was attending to, 13because of the funeral. 14 Q. Does that mean that you were 15not at the duty centre? 16 A. I was at the duty centre but 17I was also not at the duty centre. Like I would 18come in, maybe make a phone call, talk to some of 19the guys, organize something, and then I would 20leave. There were a number of buses, I think it 21was 14, that had to be directed, had people put on 22them, sent off. There was a number of staff cars, 23I think it was five. Then there was the issue with 24the horses too, and there's also an issue of 25putting -- setting up some of the stuff for the

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 216 2 3 4 5 6 1reception after the funeral. 2 So those were some of the things I 3was dealing with beside Corporal Langridge at that 4time. 5 Q. All right. 6 A. Along with normal duties of 7like opening up doors, or making sure gates were 8open, flags were up, stuff like that. 9 Q. So those took you up to when? 10 A. Around -- between noon and 10 11after noon, sometime in there I left to go to 12lunch. I came back about quarter to one, I 13believe, maybe a little bit later, and when I 14walked in, because at that time everybody had left. 15By noon all the buses had gone, everybody had left, 16so it was pretty quiet. I walked in, I looked at 17the sign-in sheet. I saw that Corporal Langridge 18had come in at 12:35 and had left right away. 19There were, I think, three or four soldiers 20standing around and I asked, I just threw a general 21question out there, "Did anybody see Stu when he 22came in?" One of the guys said, "Yeah, I saw him," 23so I just initialed. Who that person is today, I 24don't know. All I can tell you they were... 25 Q. So the time, the 12:35 there,

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 217 2 3 4 5 6 1was it already written on the time sheet? 2 A. Yeah, all this was written in 3there. This was -- I didn't see him write this, 4but at 11 o'clock -- sorry, the 9 o'clock/11 5o'clock time, he wrote that. The handwriting was 6the same, so I'm making the assumption that he 7wrote the next line too. 8 Q. You did note time at 12:35 9but some 10 minutes later? 10 A. At least 10 minutes later, 11maybe 20 -- between 10 and 20 minutes later -- and 12they said yeah, he had come in. 13 Q. Okay. So what happened next? 14 A. Basically we carried on with 15the rest of the day. Again, the funeral was going 16on so at that point it was pretty quiet; there 17wasn't a lot going on. 18 At 1435 I looked at my watch and 19saw Stu hadn't come back yet. So I waited until 20about 1450 and I gave him a phone call. There was 21no answer, it went to voice mail. Waited about 22five minutes longer, gave him another phone call. 23At this time I left a message. I said something 24along the lines of "Hey Stu, it's Trent. Give me a 25call." A few minutes later I called again, again

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 218 2 3 4 5 6 1it went right to voice mail. So I assumed that he 2had fallen asleep on the bed because what he had 3said, that he was tired. So I sent Corporal 4Hurlburt, now Master Corporal Hurlburt, over there 5to wake him up. 6 Q. Why did you send Corporal 7Hurlburt? 8 A. He was the duty driver. So 9he went over and he came back 10 minutes later or 10so and said he banged real loud on the door but he 11couldn't wake him up. Around that time I ran into 12Master Corporal Fitzpatrick. I can't remember what 13the conversation was, but he gave me a key for the 14room, master key. So I sent Corporal Hurlburt back 15over with the master key and told him, "Wake Stu up 16and bring him back." Ten minutes goes by, I guess, 17so we're probably looking at now 1520, 1525, in 18that neighbourhood. 19 Q. How far is it for him to go 20there? 21 A. It's about a kilometre -- 22800, 900 metres, a kilometre. So he drove there, 23parked his truck, obviously, you know, walked up 24the stairs found his room. 25 So anyways, he came back and when

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 219 2 3 4 5 6 1he came back I could tell there was something wrong 2because he came back quick, parked the truck at the 3-- he didn't park the truck, he just stopped it at 4the door, got out and I could see that he was 5visibly upset about something. He walked in -- 6this is Corporal Hurlburt -- he walked in and he 7said, "I got to talk to you." I'm like, "Okay, 8well talk." He goes, "No, I can't talk to you 9here," so we went outside. At that point he told 10me that he opened the door and he found Corporal 11Langridge hanging, and he said that he was dead. 12And I asked him, AWell did you cut him down?@ I 13was still thinking that he may have just done that 14within the past five minutes or he may still be 15alive. So I said, "Go back" -- I told him to go 16back -- I also asked him, "Did you phone the MPs at 17the fire hall?" He goes, "No, I came right back 18here." I said, "Okay. Well, go back, cut him 19down, keep the key." A lot of times the door is 20locked, so to save some time and the firemen having 21to kick the door down, go back and cut him down and 22wait for the fire hall. 23 Q. Did Corporal Hurlburt tell 24you anything? 25 A. Other than that?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 220 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. In response. 2 A. He probably did. He probably 3said okay, and ran back to the truck and jumped in 4and took off. 5 Q. Right. 6 A. I'm still outside. So as I 7walked back inside there is still a lot of soldiers 8around because by this point they had realized that 9at the funeral there wasn't enough room for all the 10soldiers there. So they had sent probably about 11150 back already. So there were a lot of soldiers 12starting to mill around just kind of waiting for 13the reception. So I ran a couple of different -- 14 Q. Sorry, the reception was to 15take place around the duty centre? 16 A. Not the duty centre, but the 17duty centre is located directly in the middle of 18the line. So it's like a building with like a big 19H. The duty centre is right in the middle where 20the main doors are. The reception was being held 21in -- if you're sitting at the duty desk, it would 22have been behind us on the north side of the 23building. So I think it was -- I can't remember 24exactly sure which it was. 25 Anyway, as I walked back in I ran

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 221 2 3 4 5 6 1a couple of scenarios through my head, and I 2actually at that point assumed that he was dead. 3So the big thing I wanted to do was to make sure 4that Trooper Hayakaze's family was still given the 5respect that they deserve. Their son was killed in 6combat and obviously they did their -- this is 7their day; they deserved that time. 8 So what I did was walked into the 9small duty room, and there was some media there. 10The last thing I wanted was the colonel of the 11regiment to step out of the car and have media 12throw a camera and microphone in his face, say, 13"What do you think about the death of Stuart 14Langridge?" So I wanted to inform him so if that 15did happen he had time to put an answer together so 16he didn't look like a deer in the headlights. 17 So I walked back in the room and 18made a couple of phone calls. Now, I didn't know 19this at the time, but there was, I guess, a delay 20in the funeral, so soldiers were -- they were a 21little further away than I thought they were. 22Anyways, I couldn't get a hold of anybody because 23naturally they turned all their BlackBerrys off; 24they were in a funeral. So when the funeral ended, 25probably about 10 minutes of trying different phone

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 222 2 3 4 5 6 1numbers to get a hold of someone, Sergeant-Major 2Mulhern, who was the headquarters squadron 3sergeant-major, phoned me on the main phone in the 4duty centre, and he informed me that the funeral 5had just ended and I was to call the riding troop 6and have them bring up the horses, because the 7horses were supposed to do like a little honour 8guard, something like that, for the family when 9they came back. I said, "Yes, no problem, sir, 10I'll call them, but I need you to call me back on" 11in this case Master Corporal Fitzpatrick's office, 12on that telephone. "I've got to talk to you 13privately." 14 Q. Can you just give a little 15more details? Was the phone he called you on, was 16that like a phone that everybody could hear what 17you said? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And were there people around? 20 A. Yes. At that point there 21were probably 10 soldiers standing around, maybe 22more. 23 So anyways, I went into Master 24Corporal Fitzpatrick's office, closed the door and 25he called me right away and I said, "Okay, this is

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 223 2 3 4 5 6 1what's happened." Actually, let me back up just a 2little bit because I forgot to tell you that when I 3walked in I went into the office and closed the 4door and phoned the fire hall first. 5 Q. You are speaking about Master 6Corporal Fitzpatrick's office? 7 A. Yes. I phoned the fire hall 8first and I told them the situation. They asked me 9if I had called the MPs. I said I had not and they 10told me they would inform the MPs squadron. I 11forgot to mention that earlier, but that was 12actually the first phone call I made. 13 So carrying on, he called me back 14and I told him what happened and that at this point 15in time I believed that Corporal Langridge was 16dead, and I wasn't able to get a hold of the 17adjutant, the 2IC or the colonel. So I asked him 18if I had the right numbers, and just to clarify if 19I had the right number. I also tried to call the 20RSM at that time, and that went just to voice mail 21on his too. 22 So I was able to get a hold of 23Major Jared, the next person I was able to get a 24hold of, and in that time that I was able to get a 25hold of Major Jared, I guess the sergeant-major had

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 224 2 3 4 5 6 1told the RSM who told the colonel. I phoned Major 2Jared, but he at that point did know what was going 3on, so I told him the whole story. Then he got an 4email or something on his Blackberry and said, 5AOkay, the colonel does know. The AJ knows so the 6colonel knows.@ 7 So at that point I knew that all 8the key players in this particular case knew what 9was going to happen, and I also knew that I had 10probably a half hour before they were going to come 11back. 12 So I also phoned Corporal Davis 13because he was the family support representative, 14and somewhere in that Master Corporal Fitzpatrick 15came back to probably organize a couple last minute 16things for the funeral. I pulled him into the 17office and I told him what happened. At that time 18he said that this was too much for him to deal with 19and that he was going to go home and I said, "Yeah, 20I understand that," and he went home. 21 The next 10 to 15 minutes I don't 22remember too much what happened, but there was a 23few more phone calls and conversations that went 24on. And probably about 1600 to 1615 a few soldiers 25had heard about what happened in that short time

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 225 2 3 4 5 6 1and a couple of them stopped by and asked me what 2was going on. So a few of them, if they didn't 3know what was going on, I said, nothing is going on 4right now, I'll talk to you later. The ones that 5knew what was going on, I pulled them aside into 6the office and said, "This is what has happened, 7I'd like you to keep it quiet for the next hour or 8so until the family is done and then we can talk 9about it." I don't remember who it was, but every 10last one of them agreed to that. 11 So most of the soldiers did not 12know what had happened until after 1730, which is 13about the time that it all ended at, that the 14funeral ended at, 1730, 1800, I'm not exactly sure, 15but by then the family had left, most of the 16soldiers had left, and I believe the media had left 17too. 18 So sometime after 1700, and I'm 19not exactly sure when off the top of my head now, 20maybe 1730, Ms. Hamilton-Tree phoned and she was 21quite distraught. She had heard that Stu had 22committed suicide and she wanted to know what 23happened. So I wouldn't divulge any information to 24her, but what I did do is I promised to take down 25her phone numbers, both her cell and her home phone

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 226 2 3 4 5 6 1number, and I would give it to the adjutant and he 2would contact her. 3 So after that phone call I went 4upstairs, the adjutant was in his office, gave him 5the phone number -- phone numbers. He called her 6right while I was standing there and made 7arrangements for the colonel to go visit her. 8 Q. Sorry, I didn't get that last 9part. 10 A. He made arrangements for the 11colonel to go visit her some time that evening. 12 Q. All right. And did you 13discuss anything with the adjutant about the event? 14 A. Yes, I did. Off the top of 15my head I don't remember exactly what I said, but I 16basically gave him a quick rundown of what 17happened, verbally. He said, "Yeah, okay, good 18job. I'll talk to you later." I'm guessing, 191730-ish 1745, that time frame. 20 Q. Are you saying that he told 21you, "Good job. Talk to you later"? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Okay, just I didn't catch. 24Okay. 25 A. Yeah. Then I started -- went

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 227 2 3 4 5 6 1back downstairs, started my statement, wrote up a 2quick statement, took it back to the adjutant, let 3him have it. There was still a couple minor 4questions that came up so I stayed on duty until 51900-ish, 1930, just for the continuity, and then 6the regular duty officer took over at that time. 7 Q. How did you understand his 8statement to you, "Good job"? 9 A. Well, I don't know. 10 Q. Why did he tell you -- how 11did you take it? What did you -- what was your 12understanding of it? 13 A. I honestly don't really have 14an understanding of it. Maybe he was referring to 15the fact that I got him some phone numbers. I'm 16not really sure. 17 Q. I'm taking you to Tab 6. 18You mentioned a statement that you wrote. Is this 19the statement? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What about the duty driver; 22did he come back at one point? 23 A. Actually I forgot to mention 24that. I did call him, probably 1730-ish, in that 25neighbourhood, and asked how he was doing. He said

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 228 2 3 4 5 6 1he was doing fine, that he'd been talking to a 2firefighter for about an hour and that he was okay 3now. And keep in mind that he was very distraught 4about what just happened. I also made arrangements 5for him when he came back to talk to the padre to 6make sure that that was actually the case. He 7probably met the padre 1800, 1830, that time frame, 8unless I wrote it in the statement here. No, I 9didn't. 10 Q. So you just told us what your 11actions were following the suicide. What was your 12inner reaction to the suicide? 13 A. My inner reaction was a 14little bit of anger because I felt and had -- the 15timeline that Stu decided to commit suicide I think 16was planned out so we were to find him exactly at 17the moment that the funeral should be ending at the 18grave site. So I felt that that was very selfish 19of him to do that, to take the spotlight off of a 20fallen soldier, one of his comrades, and shine it 21on himself at that moment. So I was very annoyed. 22 Q. Did you discuss this with 23anyone? 24 A. Yes, and I think a lot of 25people agreed with me.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 229 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. Did you discuss this with 2people on that day, on the 15th? 3 A. No. Maybe my wife, but she's 4wasn't... 5 Q. So the people that you 6discussed it with, were they soldiers or were they 7leadership? Were they -- who were the people that 8you discussed this with? 9 A. My peers and a few of the 10younger officers around too. 11 Q. And you said they shared your 12feeling? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Just to go back to your 15statement, when you wrote your statement what did 16you do with it afterwards? 17 A. I took it to the adjutant -- 18signed it and took it to the adjutant. 19 Q. And what about Corporal 20Langridge's effects in the defaulters room? 21 A. Sorry, I totally forgot about 22that. That was probably about 1800-ish, 1830-ish. 23As things started to quiet down I realized that we 24would have to secure all his personal effects that 25were left in the duty room. So I got a key, or got

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 230 2 3 4 5 6 1a lock from the R2 shop, the regimental quarter 2master and I took -- he had two lockers; he had 3belongings in both lockers, so I took all the 4belongings -- and there were belongings on his bed 5too, including some of his bed sheets and stuff 6like that. So I took all of his stuff, put it into 7one locker along with the medications, locked the 8locker, took the key and gave the key to Lieutenant 9Dunn with instructions to give it to the R2. 10 Q. I take you to Tab 5. This is 11it, a report from Master Corporal Christina 12Mahoney, as you see on the top. And it says at 13paragraph 1 that at about 1750 hours on 15 March, 142008 Master Corporal Mahoney telephoned yourself, 15Sergeant Hiscock, duty sergeant, and learned the 16following. Just before going into what she 17learned, do you recall speaking with military 18police on that day? 19 A. I don't remember talking to 20her specifically, but there were a number of phone 21calls that I received, and I reference this, and 22obviously she was one of them. 23 Q. All right. If you read -- 24well we can read it together. She said you told 25her, just to see if you recognize your statements,

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 231 2 3 4 5 6 1(a) that Corporal Langridge was on suicide watch 2and had been sleeping at the unit line since 3approximately one week. He had a locker at the 4unit lines which had been since been secured with a 5lock. 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. So you would have said this 8to her? 9 A. Yeah. I don't think it was a 10week; I think it was actually like four days. I 11might have said a week. I don't remember exactly 12the time frame. 13 Q. All right. And you spoke 14about the reporting every two hours? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Corporal Langridge having 17keys to a room to do laundry and that you had seen 18Corporal Langridge at 11 o'clock that morning and 19he appeared okay. 20 There is one question I didn't ask 21you. How did he -- what was your feeling about 22Corporal Langridge that day? How did he appear to 23you? 24 A. When I first talked to him he 25seemed fine and -- like I've known -- at that point

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 232 2 3 4 5 6 1in time I knew Corporal Langridge for about four 2years. We did tour together. So his demeanour 3seemed like that of a soldier that's a little 4tired, but he had a smile on his face. He seemed 5to me happy, other than the fact that he was tired. 6 Q. So she reports you said that 7he complained that his medications did not work the 8evening before and he did not sleep well and that 9he was extremely tired, so that is what you told us 10today. Corporal Langridge was to show up again at 1112:35, however you did not observe him. You just 12told us today you were at lunch. However, the 13sign-in sheet had been filled in with his name on 14it. You yourself was unaware if anyone had seen 15him at this time. 16 Today you told us that you spoke 17to soldiers who you don't recall who they are that 18said that have seen him. 19 A. Yes, that's correct. It 20could have been one of these three soldiers listed 21here, but it might not have been. 22 Q. All right. And Corporals 23Star and Morrison, did they have any function at 24the duty centre at the time? 25 A. I believe they were both

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 233 2 3 4 5 6 1drivers, so they were just waiting for phone calls 2-- staff car drivers. So at that time they were 3just waiting for the phone call to go pick people 4up, but I am not sure. 5 Q. You mentioned previously that 6Corporal Hurlburt was the duty driver. 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. So Corporal Langridge was to 9show up again at 1435, however he did not attend 10nor did he sign the sign-in sheet. At 1451 you 11telephoned Corporal Langridge, negative results, 12then you sent Corporal Hurlburt to the room, no 13answer, telephoned again, left a message. You 14assumed that he fell asleep. 15 A. Yes. I think I said earlier 16that I phoned three times before I sent him over. 17I know I phoned at least -- I'm pretty sure I 18phoned at least twice before I sent Corporal 19Hurlburt over. Here it just says once. I know I 20phoned at least twice. 21 Q. And about 1520 Corporal 22Hurlburt was sent back to the room with a master 23key. When you obtained the master key from Master 24Corporal Fitzpatrick was there any exchange about 25the reason for getting the master key?

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 234 2 3 4 5 6 1 A. Well, I think I said, "I 2think he's fallen asleep on his bed." 3 Q. To Master Corporal 4Fitzpatrick? 5 A. Yeah. I don't remember the 6exact conversation, but it went something along the 7lines of, "Stu hasn't checked in yet. I think he's 8fallen asleep on his bed. I sent Hurlburt over to 9bang on his door." He goes, "Well, we have a 10master key. Why don't you go just wake him up?" 11Along that lines. 12 Q. When he opened the door he 13found Corporal Langridge hanging. Corporal 14Hurlburt returned to unit lines and advised 15yourself. You phoned the fire department and 16ordered Hurlburt back to the room. 17 All right, so that's the extent 18that she reports about your conversation with her. 19 You mentioned that you had known 20Corporal Langridge for four years prior to this 21day. Can you tell us when you met him? 22 A. It would been pre-deployment 23training spring of 2004. We were in the same 24squadron together, reccy squadron together, the 25Strathaconas.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 235 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. And what was your rank at 2that time? 3 A. Master corporal. 4 Q. And Corporal Langridge? 5 A. I think he was a -- at that 6time I'm not sure but I'm pretty sure he was a 7corporal. 8 Q. Were you his superior? 9 A. Well, by virtue of rank I 10would be, but he was not in my troop. We were in 11the same squadron but he was not in my troop. 12 Q. All right. So what do you 13remember of him from that time? 14 A. From the pre-deployment 15training or from the tour? 16 Q. Maybe you can take us from 17the pre-deployment training to where it's later. 18 A. Okay. I don't remember the 19pre-deployment. I met him but don't remember too 20much about him during that time. But during the 21actual tour of 2004-05, he was in 2 Troop; I was in 223 Troop. I know his crew commander and his patrol 23commander very well and I also knew his serve op 24very well. So whenever they were in -- keep in 25mind that during that tour we operated a little bit

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 236 2 3 4 5 6 1differently than they operate now. So whenever we 2were in together, I would definitely go over and 3visit them and they would come over and visit me. 4Now, Stu wouldn't come and visit me but we all had 5mutual friends, so we would -- if we were all in 6together, we would sit and eat together. During 7that time we were allowed to drink overseas, so we 8had like a wet mess, so we would go to the mess and 9have a beer together, maybe hit the gym together, 10stuff like that. So I knew him fairly well, but 11not to the extent that his crew mates would have 12known him. 13 Q. What can you tell us about 14him from that time? 15 A. I think that Corporal 16Langridge was a very good performer during that 17tour. I would have been more than happy to have 18him in my crew or in my patrol or in my troop. He 19was -- at that time he was a Class A soldier. 20 Q. So after the tour did you 21keep contact with him? 22 A. Yeah, but again it was more 23professional, just at work. A number of times I 24saw him; I have run into him a number of times. So 25we, you know, small talk and stuff like that.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 237 2 3 4 5 6 1 Q. Were you in the same squadron 2at the time? 3 A. Yes, we were both in reccy 4squadron, and for a while, maybe two or three 5months, he was -- while we were in garrison he was 6in my troop. There was one particular incident 7that he went out to the bar one night with some of 8the guys, came back with a couple of black eyes, 9and I asked him what happened and he said he got 10what he deserved; he was talking when he shouldn't 11have been. So I said, okay, good. That's the kind 12of guy he was. He realized he made a mistake, 13someone took him to task on it and he wasn't going 14to do that again. 15 Q. All right. Do you remember 16any conversations that you had with him? 17 A. I remember a few of them. 18One in particular was in the summer of 2006 19reference. Now at this point, this is six years 20ago now, so it is a little fuzzy, but I remember 21running into Stu in the hall one day and he was a 22little distraught about something, so I asked him 23what was going on and he said that he had an issue 24with his wife. Now, again, my memory is a little 25fuzzy, but that was probably about a 20-minute

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 238 2 3 4 5 6 1conversation and in that conversation he alluded to 2the fact that he either hit her or was going to hit 3her; I can't remember, but there was some type of 4physical altercation that went on. So during that 5conversation I invited him to come to my church 6because sometimes when people get a relationship 7with God these issues become less important. 8 This was at the same time, I 9believe, that he told me his father had passed away 10and that that was taking him -- it had affected him 11and it was an issue that he was dealing with and it 12was something that did bother him. So that was 13part of this whole conversation, what happens to 14someone after they die. We all have different 15opinions and I gave him my opinion and asked him to 16come to my church. 17 Q. And what was his reaction? 18 A. He politely declined. 19 Q. All right. So you said you 20remember a number of conversations. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What would be the others? 23 A. Most of them were just 24work-related, so he'd ask me how to do something 25better or I'd point something out for him, things

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 239 2 3 4 5 6 1like that. But those would be -- like I say, the 2incident with coming into work one day all beat up, 3but most were work-related at that point. I never 4pushed the issue after that reference what happened 5with his wife. He wanted to leave it, so I told 6him my door is open, we can talk, but he didn't 7want to take me up on the offer. 8 Q. All right. So you say most 9of the conversations were work-related. Was your 10assessment of him changed since Afghanistan or did 11it remain the same? 12 A. In 2006? In 2006 I thought 13he was still a pretty good soldier, now he was just 14dealing with some other issues and those issues 15could be addressed and he could get back on that 16straight and narrow easily. That's what I thought 17at that time. 18 Q. So what were these issues at 19the time? 20 A. Well, the issue with his 21wife, the issue with his father dying. Those are 22obviously big issues, I'm sure anybody here can 23relate, so sometimes it just helps to talk things 24out and, like I said, my door is open. 25 That was the summer of 2006.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 240 2 3 4 5 6 1There was a brief time, probably in the fall, where 2I didn't see him too much, and then come the end of 32006, beginning of 2007, I'll just bring you back 4to the fact that in Afghanistan the war had taken a 5different turn and at that point in time we were -- 6Stu and I were in reccy squadron, so we were 7(inaudible) soldiers. And the war was taking a 8turn and they had decided to use tanks overseas. 9Canada only had one tank squadron at that time, so 10it left and went overseas. They quickly had to 11make another tank squadron, which both Stu and I 12ended up in. 13 Q. I will interrupt you here. I 14believe Mr. Chairman was about to speak. No? 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was just 16waiting for the appropriate time. I just didn't 17know how your timing was here, if you were nearing 18an end. 19 MS. CERNACEK: If we want to 20resume tomorrow, this might be a good time to 21interrupt, but I can go on. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: How much longer 23do you expect to be? 24 MS. CERNACEK: I would say until 25quarter past five.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 241 2 3 4 5 6 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I assume 2you'll have some, Colonel Drapeau, and Ms. Richards 3may or may not, I don't know. 4 MS. McLAINE: I likely will not 5have any questions. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you in town? 7 A. Yes, sir. I work in 8Wainwright; however my flight is booked out 9Thursday morning. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I think 11it's been a long day and we're looking at 5:30 or 12later so, as much as I hate to do it, I think I'm 13going to. We'll start tomorrow morning at 9:30. 14 MS. CERNACEK: That's fine. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't really 16have much choice. 17 I'll adjourn. If you could just 18remember you're in the middle of your testimony. 19You know the rules; I don't need to repeat them. 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 22much. We'll adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow morning. 23--- Whereupon adjourning at 4:53 p.m.

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I have, to the best of 2 my skills and abilities, accurately recorded 3 by shorthand, and transcribed therefrom, 4 the foregoing proceeding. 5 6 7

8 ______9 Amy Harkness, Court Reporter 10

11 and 12

13 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I have, to the best 14 of my skill and ability, accurately recorded 15 by Shorthand and transcribed therefrom, the 16 foregoing proceeding. 17 18 19 20

21 Lillian Purdy, CSR 22

7 ASAP Reporting Services Inc. 8(613) 564-2727 (416) 861-8720

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