Following is the transcription of a discussion held Tuesday, January 15, 1985, in the Woody Room of Van Pelt Library under the auspices ofthe Office of the Vice Provost for Research. The original tape has been preserved in case of questions arisingfrom editing to convert spoken word to print as described on page II.

Dialogue on Animal Research

Introduction and Groundrules In just a moment I'm going to introduce people tapes would be handled. At that time I told you Dr. Cooperman: Thank you all for coming here, and if you'd raise your hand when I say that Karen Gaines would be taping this conversa- here. I think this promises to be a very interesting your name everybody then will know who every- tion, so I won't go through that because I con- and informative dialogue. What I thought I'd do one is. Let me begin with Drs. Gennarelli and sider our stated procedures still operative. Sev- in beginning is tell you why we're here, review Langfitt, as the principals involved in the experi- eral people have requested that they be allowed, the events that led to our being here, then just ments. Then Professors Francione and Watson, in addition to having the transcripts, to actually make an announcement or two having to do with from the Law School, who are two of the original having copies of the tape itself. I've agreed to procedures. Then we'll get right into the agenda signers of the letter, then four members from the that and so Karen Gaines will be copying this which you all have received a copy of. Senate who were chosen as a representative tape very shortly after this discussion has con- The immediate reason we're here, really, is a group of the faculty: Gary Cohen from the De- cluded. These copies will be available to anyone letter from members of the Law School to the partment of Microbiology in the Dental School; who wants one with certain conditions attached. Provost and President requesting a dialogue Abraham Edel from the Department of Philos- The thrust of those conditions is basically that the about experiments done in the Medical School on ophy; unfortunately Renee Fox is unable to be tapes be for personal use. I will have copies in the study of head trauma. I'm sure we're all here because of the inclement weather, which is my office of both the release form and the tapes aware of the facts, but I thought it would be use- really quite unfortunate-Dr. Fox is from the De- available, I think by early this afternoon. And so, ful to go very briefly into the background that partment of Sociology-and finally, Paul Fussell I think anyone who wants to have a copy of the was behind that letter. from the Department of English. tape can have one very soon. That's really all I Over the Memorial Day weekend there was a My own feeling was that there were two other have to say. Are there other questions at this break-in into Dr. Gennarelli's laboratory by a individuals on the faculty who should be present point? If not, I'd like to turn to the second part of group calling itself the Animal Liberation Front, in a more or less ex-officio capacity. One is Aron the agenda, which is the presentation of the at which time the laboratory was vandalized and Fisher, who was the Chair of the Medical School experiments. sixty hours or so of tapes recording the experi- Animal Care Committee at the time that Dr. Professor Francione: I have a question ments done in that laboratory over about a Gennarelli's proposal was reviewed within the here. were stolen. These were Medical School. The other is Helen Davies from three-year period tapes Dr. Cooperman: Sure, Gary. provided by some mechanism to an organization the Microbiology Department in the School of Professor Francione: I have here a copy of known as PETA, People for the Ethical Treat- Medicine who chairs the University Council this release form. Is it necessary that you sign ment of Animals. PETA then, over some period, Committee on Research. Finally we have four this release form before you get a copy of the prepared an edited version which they entitled representatives of the University of Pennsylvania tape? 'Unnecessary Fuss," at least allegedly drawn press: Ann Bailey from The Penn Paper: Karen from these tapes, which they have distributed Gaines from Almanac: Jeff Goldberg from The Dr. Cooperman: That's my intent. widely throughout the United States and also in D.P.: and Marshall Ledger from The Gazette. Professor Francione: Participants will not Europe. A copy of this edited tape was shown to I would like to just add a personal note about get a copy of the tape if they do not agree not to members of the Law School. These individuals this meeting before we begin. I see this dialogue give it to the "broadcast media" or "to use it in were quite disturbed by what they saw and in the as a component of the University response to the any way to damage the reputation of the Univer- letter to President Hackney and Provost Ehrlich, general question about the use of animals for ex- sity of Pennsylvania"? We have to agree to this? said that the disturbed them, in research. I think the ma- they seeing tape perimental purposes Dr. Cooperman: That's right. raised in their minds moral and issues, and issue is the inherent conflict, as I see it, be- legal jor Professor Francione: Do see any prob- also raised in their minds the of whether tween what of us in the you question many University lem with how faculty members done at the were in con- feel to be the for medical restricting your experiments University community necessity disseminate information? formance with scientific norms. They, because and scientific progress, and the kind of experi- Dr. No. There are no restric- of being disturbed, then called for this dialogue. mentation that is needed for such progress, ver- Cooperman: tions with to the The tran- The Administration felt that, as this was a re- sus the ethical problem of inflicting pain on sen- regard transcripts. themselves are to be quest from colleagues at the University, we, the tient beings-for although they are animals they scripts going provided, without condition. Since we hadn't University, from a collegial point of view, had an are sentient beings. I think that within the Uni- really, reached the about obligation to respond to this group in ways that versity as a whole, and within American society, agreement among participants the and this issue came rather late, I we don't necessarily feel we have toward other there is a consensus on the necessity for such ex- tapes up the to distribute them was to that groups. We also felt that, given the attention that perimentation, so the question becomes, What thought way put restriction on it. I mean I can't believe that this experiment, or series of experiments, has norms should govern the use of animals in labo- any- here wants to the aroused, the concerns raised were not limited to ratory experiments? I think a big portion of this body present damage reputation of the the and so I members of the Law School. As a result, we re- dialogue and, in fact, the continuing discussion University by using tapes, didn't see that as a Is it a quested Faculty Senate to see if there were other of this issue within the University will center on problem. problem? people from other faculties who would like to what those norms should be, how the University Professor Francione: It depends on how participate in the dialogue. We also thought that, should meet those norms, and how University you define "damage the reputation of the in responding, we would like to have a discus- experimenters should meet those norms. In this University." sion of the that we can have in a of discussion I us to a lot of attention type group expect place Dr, Cooperman: I guess it does. this size, that is to say, a meaningful discussion on whether these norms are, in fact, met within Professor Francione: Some have with a small group. On the other hand, we felt it the Head Trauma Center in particular. people different thresholds for important, given the interest the case has That's really all I have to say by way of intro- evaluating. aroused, to make the information available to the duction. I do want to review for you the situation Dr. Cooperman: Well, it's really intent. I'm University community at large. The format that about disseminating the proceedings of this dia- not sure what the legal content of the release we've established, and your presence here, re- logue. I sent to you, in a letter dated December form is. It really is basically to give people com- flect those two considerations. 10, a notification as to how the transcripts of the fort that no one is trying to use the tapes in a way

ALMANAC SUPPLEMENT Februart' /9, 1985 1

that has a purpose damaging the reputation of the characterize the types of injuries that occur. fuse brain injuries result from the manner in University or of the participants in this discus- Suffice it to say, that there are many, many which the head moves during an accident, that sion, and that's really the reason for saying that. different kinds of brain injuries; depending on is, the direction that it moves, how fast it Professor Watson: I would rather not re- how you classify them, there are anywhere moves, and whether it's accelerated or decel- ceive a tape under these conditions, but I would from ten to thirty or forty separate different erated during an injury, and that group of inju- like to be assured that the transcripts would be kinds of brain Some are clearly more ries (the diffuse brain injuries) causes funda- available soon as well. injuries. important than others. Some are clearly less mentally different kinds of brain damage than and distribution schedule, (Discussion of typing than others in terms of the degree of the focal injuries. It causes damage that, until deleted In what have important for space. follows, speakers of treatment, in terms of the mortal- these was eliminated starts and difficulty experiments, exceedingly poorly false repetitious phrasing, deaths that cause), in terms of the understood, to the that some or adjusted syntax for clarity, and in a few ity (the they point thirty lives leave the survivors and in different names were to these inju- cases-with the knowledge of other participants disabling they forty given concerned-improved word choicesfor accuracy terms of the frequency. ries that are clearly part of a spectrum of inju- of meaning intended. Elision marks (. . .) indi- We ourselves have undertaken a study as ries that go from injuries that are more or less cate interruptions and resumptions, and clarifi- part of our head injury center activities to de- purely recoverable to injuries with a mortality cations by addition are in brackets.-KCG] termine what are the bad injuries and what are rate in the sixty percent range. The diffuse Dr. Cooperman: O.K. If we can now pro- the not-so-bad injuries. We'll come back to brain injuries, in terms of their cause, have ceed to the second item of the agenda. As Dr. how those influence the animal research in a nothing to do with an object striking the head. Gennarelli goes through this description of re- moment. So we feel that head injury is an im- They have to do with the way the head moves search, if there are technical terms that come up portant problem. after it is struck or, in the case of deceleration, with which you aren't familiar, I think it would There have been a lot of clinical how the head moves as it's down. be to raise hand to be investiga- slowing perfectly appropriate your tions that have shed a lot of light on the prob- These are the category of injuries that we have recognized for an explanation. Dr. Gennarelli lem, but the fact remains that the mortality rate been most interested in-the diffuse brain in- for serious brain injuries remains in the forty juries. The reason for that is because they are to This has been the least understood: Their is of the Research fifty percent range. generally therapy entirely Description true over the last fifty years and, despite ad- nonspecific. If one considers what we do as vances in medications, advances in emergency doctors to take care of patients with diffuse Dr. Gennarelli: In preparing these remarks medical services, advances in surgical tech- brain injuries: It can be summed up to say, it became clear that I could go on for hours de- niques, intensive care unit treatment, all of "We have no specific treatment for this large scribing, in various levels of detail, the re- these things have not appreciably diminished group of injuries. We provide supportive care search and its background and its productivity. the mortality rate from major brain injuries. So to the patients and that's about it." This is de- I thought, since this is intended to be a dia- there's a lot of room to improve the roughly spite all that has gone on in clinical medicine logue among us, that the bettter approach fifty percent mortality rate that exists in seri- in trying to care for these patients historically would be to give a rather thumbnail sketch of ous brain injuries. That gets us to how do we over centuries. So the thrust of our research what this is all about so that we can leave am- investigate brain injuries other than in an epi- has been aimed at trying to understand the dif- ple time for questions and discussion. If the demiological sense, that is studying popula- fuse brain injuries. group would instead prefer a longer diatribe tions of patients or studying single patients in- It's common practice that when these pa- from me, I'd be happy to give that, but I tensely. There are simply data that cannot be tients come into the hospital we explain to thought I'd try to confine it to a very basic obtained, that are felt important to be ob- their relatives that their relative has suffered view. tained, from human beings. And this relates to brain damage. We teach that to our residents. I think, obviously, when trying to analyze a number of matters, not the least of which, is Until very recently, and as a product of these research, one of the first questions that comes that patients, from a scientific point of view, experiments, we really didn't know what we to mind is "Is the question being studied of become injured in very messy fashions. That were talking about, in specific, when we said any significance or importance?" and I hope is, they have circumstances that compound "brain damage." Now we have a very precise that many of you have had the chance to read their injuries, multiple injuries, and the spe- idea of what this brain damage is, and are en- theAlmanac article that I wrote regarding this. cific circumstances that cause their injuries are gaging upon a better understanding of it with I think it amply documents that brain injuries never to be known. All one may know is that hopes of providing specific therapy for this are, in fact, a major problem-not only to doc- the patient was in a car crash, he may know kind of injury. This injury, by the way, com- tors such as Dr. Langfitt and myself who treat some greater detail about the circumstances of prises between 40 and 50 percent of all serious brain-injured patients-but is a substantial the car crash, but the critical variables are brain injuries, so it's not an uncommon injury. public health problem in the United States. never known in a clinical situation. And those This type of injury is one of the two largest The numbers are listed in the Almanac article, variables relate to whether the head strikes causes of death and disability in humans. gained from several sources, but the bottom something, how fast the head moves when it So it became clear that, for a number of rea- line is that there are in the range of two million strikes something, the direction that it moves, sons, we needed to develop model systems head and brain injuries per year, of which and some of the other biomechanical variables that would help us study this particular kind of roughly fifty thousand of them are fatal and, of that are the things that cause the brain injuries. injury. These were originally developed- the survivors, a substantial number never re- Now, to divert for a minute about what let me backtrack a moment to say that pioneer- turn to full productivity as useful members of brain injuries are, I think it's important for the ing work in experimental head injury has been society. So this is a substantial problem and, group to understand, because it does relate di- done for a long period of time-but a signal we feel, worthy of investigation. The question rectly to the research, what brain injuries are study was done in the 1940s by Denny Brown then, is how to investigate such a problem. all about. There are generally two kinds of and Richie Russell who demonstrated that ac- The problem has been around for millenia and brain injuries: focal brain injuries, and diffuse celeration of the head could produce cerebral it hasn't gone away with the kinds of investi- brain injuries. Focal brain injuries generally concussion. Those studies in the 1940s were gations that have been present, that have been result from something striking the head or excellent studies and were the predicate upon undertaken to the present. from the head striking something, that is, an which many subsequent studies in experimen- Historically, the patient, of course, has been impact with an object, and that impact causes tal head injury were done. They were done, I the first line of investigation, with clinical localized deformations, localized forces to ex- should mention for this group, under deep studies of various levels of complexity, study- ist on the skull and the brain, and causes dam- general anesthesia and, partly as a product of ing both individual patients in greater or lesser age that is generally in one area. It may be a that, many misconceptions arose from their degrees of detail, and then studying groups of very large area, a very small area, but the work. As a product of their work, many gov- patients in an epidemiological manner. Those damage is relatively localized. That is a funda- ernmental agencies, directly or indirectly, or studies, historically, have provided a great mentally different kind of brain injury than the many investigators began to study head injury amount of information. They've been able to second category-diffuse brain injuries. Dif- in experimental situations.. Many species were

II ALMANAC SUPPLEMENT Februart /9. 1985

used, many preparations were used, almost all warmed in a pan of warm water. When it be- necessity because Hospital reconstruction was of which involved some type of impact to the comes very pliable, then the material was taking over the space. Just a word about the head where some type of striking device was molded to the animal's head so that a laboratory. The laboratory has an absolute re- thrust against the head of various species and form-fitting helmet was created. Then that hel- quirement of being in a ground-level location the physiological results and sometimes the met was attached to the accelerating device in because the accelerating device requires a pathology was observed. These led to a gen- the same manner as the metallic helmet. six-by-six-by-six foot cube of reinforced con- eral understanding of what kinds of events What we found in those initial experiments crete to attach the accelerating device to, so to were necessary produce brain injury. As -with what is now called the PENN- l device, that it obviously is unsafe to put it anywhere time went on, those initial studies from the as opposed to the subsequent PENN-2 de- other than on a ground level. The only space forties and fifties became the groundwork for vice-what we found in that group of experi- available to us from the Medical School was which most of the protective standards aimed ments were several things. Number one, we the current location which is in the basement, at preventing injuries were designed. These found that at low levels of acceleration physio- or the subbasement of the lowest level of the are principally, transportation agencies in the logical changes occurred, often very dramatic Anatomy/Chemistry building. governments of many countries who have de- in nature, that were not associated with loss of At this time, or very shortly before that, Dr. signed standards that say, for example, a car behaviorial consciousness or coma. This was Thibault, whom I had previously worked with environment should not allow the head to do an important observation because in the at the NIH, was attracted to the University of such and such-should not allow it to exceed a 1940s, those physiological observations were Pennsylvania and came on to the faculty. We certain acceleration level in a certain period of used as an index of cerebral concussion or went back to our original paradigm of control- time, for example. Despite the implementation coma. The blood pressure would change, the ling the head, that is, no longer using the ther- of as those standards, you all well know, car heart rate would go down to perhaps one-third moplastic helmet, but going back to a situation crashes, for example, still cause many, many of its control values. These were the kind of where we used a metallic helmet and we fitted head in injuries. Something the range of things previously used as indices of coma, and the animal into that with a plaster-of-paris-like 25,000 head injury deaths a year are caused in in the lightly anesthetized animal-as opposed material of dental-stone. car crashes. So rather the clearly, preliminary to the deeply anesthetized animal-it was very During the early part, the early few months work that was done in the forties and fifties clear that these events occurred before coma ofthe new laboratory, many procedural changes had a lot of room for expansion just on the ba- occurred. were going on and, because of these, we were sis of the preventative aspects, not to mention This, of course, brings into question a lot of able to produce our intended goal of the dif- the fact that treatments were still be- the other people's previous work and a lot of the safety fuse, the severe form of the diffuse brain inju- ing provided nonspecifically. standards that were predicated on that previous ry in the spring of 1981. This became a very We first began experimental head injury in work. At higher levels of acceleration to the exciting time in the laboratory because this the the early 1970s with a paradigm that is head, cerebral concussion could be produced, was an absolutely unique finding. No one had to roughly similar what we're using now. This reproducively. That was not particularly a ever produced-and to this day still has not- involved a small-brained monkey, a squirrel striking finding, since other investigators had produced prolonged coma in any kind of an that has a of monkey, brain roughly 20 or 25 been able to produce that using different ani- animal preparation in the absence of large grams in size. The experiments were intended, mal models, or in different experimental mass lesions within the head. So no one had as our current are, to experiments separate paridigms. What we were after, was to create been able to duplicate the common clinical en- what we feel are the critical the severe form injury-producing of the diffuse brain injury, the tity of the severe form of diffuse brain injury variables, force from one namely, impact head that has a mortality rate of fifty to sixty until the spring of 1981. We were obviously movement or acceleration. The experiments percent and that is so commonly seen by us in very excited about that and, in addition to the were others as well as the clinic. We felt that this carefully designed by injury was simply a production of this, it also dispelled many, ourselves to, as best as possible in an experi- more severe variety of injury than the cerebral many questions about experimental head inju- mental situation, deliver a non-impact accel- concussion, and that all we had to do was to ry. It had been, for instance, argued that this eration force to the heads of animals. To do so continue to increase the levels of acceleration injury could not be produced in experimental is no mean feat considering the levels of accel- to the brain, and we would go from the short animals either because it was unique to human eration that are necessary to produce brain in- coma of cerebral concussion to the prolonged beings, or because it was so rare in human be- jury. Therefore, a large developmental effort coma of the major diffuse brain injury. This, ings that the events that cause it couldn't be was undertaken and originally the paradigm however, did not turn out to be the case, and duplicated, or simply because the brain size of that was used is similar to what we now. what use we found was that instead of producing non-humans is too small to produce such an The basic of it that an of the gist being accelerating prolonged coma diffuse brain injury injury. So the mere production of this impor- device a force that is transmitted what we develops type, produced were animals that tant type of clinical brain injury was extremely a through metallic helmet, a metal helmet, to were dying within, or would die without sup- important. the head of an animal. The head of the animal port, several minutes of an injury from an The thrust of the laboratory since that period and the metal helmet must be tightly coupled acute subdural hematoma. An acute subdural has been to better understand the pathology so that what is together precisely delivered is hematoma is a collection of blood between the and the physiology, as well as the bio- received precisely by the head. What this also surface ofthe brain and the inner surface of the mechanics, of this kind of injury. This has led is a distribution accomplishes of the injury skull. And this was a bit of a distraction from us to a somewhat revolutionary, I guess the force and over the evenly widely head so that one point of view, in that it was not our in- word might be, understanding of this particu- there's no focal or loading impact of a ball tended endpoint. We were intending to lar kind of injury. We now feel quite strongly, effect, but rather, the pene-hammer-like effect produce the diffuse brain injury, but instead the evidence is quite strong now, that these in- of the force is as if would the head you grab produced the acute subdural hematoma. It juries are caused by primary damage that ac- and move it very rapidly in whichever direc- turns out that that model to produce acute celeration induces on the axons of the brain, tion and amount you choose to do. subdural hematoma was very reproducible and the nerve fibers of the brain. And hence, Those initial experiments were performed at it also turns out that the subdural hematoma is we've now named this injury "Diffuse Axonal the NIH, under NIH review, in house, and the most frequent cause of death in humans. Injury," or DAI for short, and this term has when I came to the of University Pennsylvania So we had inadvertently found a reliable ex- now become very widespread internationally in 1976, the experimental head injury labora- perimental model for studying the most impor- amongst the experts in head injury and is was to tory just beginning engage in these tant cause of death in humans. We did, how- widely used, especially by pathologists, and same of general types experiments. From ever, still want to study diffuse brain injury. more and more so by neurosurgeons. It pro- 1976 1980, a About time, roughly through different helmet this the late part of 1980, our vides a very powerful explanation for the brain situation was recommended our mechanical was by laboratory moved from the Hospital build- damage that occurs in these patients in whom and this was a thermo- to its current engineering colleagues, ing location in the Ana- we didn't know exactly what we were talking plastic helmet. Thermoplastic material was tomy/Chemistry building. This was simply a about previously when we said "Your mother

ALMANAC SUPPLEMENT February 19, 1985 111

" has 'brain damage.' Now we know, rather nition of head injury as opposed to treatment to spend an hour discussing the rationale of precisely, what we mean by that. We mean and the like, and so I think if we could do part having the tapes here or not, we can do that, that many, many nerve fibers, or axons in the A, we could move right down this schedule. but I think that would be unproductive. I think brain, have been damanged at the time of inju- Professor Franclone: Can I first make a we're here to discuss what questions were ry, and the very intriguing thing that we've ap- statement about the dialogue? Is that accept- raised, and I'd like to get to the crux of the preciated recently, is the precise location of able to you? matter. that nerve It's at what are called the Professor Watson: I think we'd have damage. Dr. Cooperman: Sure. You can say any- gotten nodes of Ranvier which, if envision the you thing you want. to the crux of the matter if we had seen the nerve fiber as a chain of linked sausages or Professor Francione: Those of us who tapes. the nodes of Ranvier are the hotdogs together, the letter the Dr. Cooperman: Well, I understand that. uninsulated of the nerve that are signed [requesting dialogue] parts very it in to a of And I'm quite willing to let you have the last small, and that seems to be the locus of signed response seeing tape ap- precise minutes called "Un- word on that the influence of trauma on the brain under proximately twenty-four Fuss." And we were that Professor Watson: Fine. these circumstances. I should say that coinci- necessary upset by film. We wrote a letter to the Provost and to Dr. . . but could we now dent with these primate experiments, we have Cooperman:. go a rather extensive of inves- the President indicating that we were upset to the questions that are raised in your minds developed program and that we wanted to talk about the of trauma of the nervous This about it about the tapes? tigation system. issues raised this We received a re- is reviewed, to some in the by tape. Professor Francione: Yes, but I degree, Depart- that we would have this discus- just ment of annual research and, sponse saying wanted to make a of other observa- Surgery's report sion about the issues raised the I couple included in the research if are in- by tape. tions. The second observation I wanted to report, you stated to in a letter and on the terested, are references to some recent you telephone make is I think it is unfortunate that Dr. John publi- that I that it was crucial that we see the cations from the I would thought McArdle from the Humane of the laboratory. just point Your was that the Society out, to that the animal use, the animal ex- excerpted tape. objection tape United States is forced to sit in the hall say contain taken out of context, and being perimentation is only one portion of all our in- may excerpts because I was not allowed to bring a science may some sort of unfair characterization vestigative efforts involving brain injury. The present advisor into the room. I thought that was a of the work done at the head injury lab. Drs. other kinds of things are listed there, and we very reasonable request, especially when I Gennarelli and Langfitt are here. Dr. Fisher is can go into them in more detail if you desire. stressed to you that he would not participate in here. I don't understand why. I think I'll stop at this point and open it for the dialogue at all. Dr. Cooperman: allow me to inter- questions unless there's something that you Gary, Dr. Cooperman: I think the record of this We have a limited time. I think it would feel we should cover specifically now. rupt. conversation can have that. be more productive-I mean I consider that is- sue settled. I understand that you disagree with Professor Francione: Fine. The third thing Discussion Period my judgment, but I don't think we want to I wanted to say is that this committee was, in convened Dr. Jacob Abel Dr. Fusseli: After these experiments in ac- have a long discussion about the rationale for part, by or the If we do, we will celeration are applied through this head de- against showing tape. Dr. Cooperman: Yes. take from to ask vice, how is the animal behavior tested? simply away your opportunity Professor Francione: . . . and I to that I wanted to ask object Dr. Gennareili: Well, there are various questions thought you the fact that Dr. Jacob Abel did not make about the contents of the If want to pub- methods, depending on exactly the purpose of tape. you lic-he certainly didn't tell me-that he has the There are some go on, I can't prevent you, but it seems to me co-authored research with Dr. experiment. experiments, that that's to take time from what I published for example, designed by one of our investiga- going away Gennarelli having to do with head in we were here for, which was to dis- injury tors, Eliot Stellar, who is interested in behav- thought primates. I'm not the of cuss the raised in minds about questioning integrity ioral and memory deficits after brain injury. questions your anybody who was selected Dr. Abel. I'm what was on the by That group of animals is pretested for a period tape. saying that I'm surprised that the Administra- of usually two, sometimes three, months be- Professor Francione: Fine. tion, which I believe knew that Dr. Abel had fore the injury so that his new learning is Dr. Fisher: May I ask Gary a question that published this research with Dr. Gennarelli, quantitated, and then those same tasks are ap- he may not be able to answer but, as he says, would tolerate such a clear conflict of interest. plied after the injury to find the difference. So he is a member of PETA, maybe he does I'm sure that the reaction would have been that's one behavioral aspect. The general be- know. Why has PETA not given us a copy of very different if you appointed me to choose havioral aspects are appreciated by those of us the tapes so that we could see the whole the committee. in the laboratory from our clinical experience. Professor Francione: I, along with Dr. Cooperman: I will respond to that, but is, That neurological examinations are per- twenty-nine thousand, nine-hundred and very briefly. It was my judgment that Jacob formed, observations of the animals are made ninety-nine other people belong to People for Abel could make those selections without a and recorded on a scale. We've developed a the Ethical Treatment of Animals. I also be- conflict of interest. And it was his judgment as primate injury scale that parallels the kind of long to other organizations and I well. So, can we now return to the issue at scale which we the of human by judge severity Dr. Fisher: I'm not asking about your mem- hand, which are the questions raised in your injuries (it's called the Glasgow Coma Scale). I'm if have mind by the tapes? that, we numerical data in bership. asking you any insight Using give into why PETA will not give a copy of the Dr. Cohen: Yes, I have two questions for semi-quantitative fashion to be able to de- hours of Dr. Gennarelli. scribe the of the brain in one complete sixty tapes. severity injury Professor Francione: I Dr. I animal versus another. don't have any in- Cooperman: believe Professor sight about that Francione had the floor to ask these questions, Professor Francione: Are we following the Dr. Fisher: Sounds malicious. and is there any reason why we can't proceed schedule now? in that Dr. Cooperman: Well, we could have a dis- way? Dr. Cooperman: Yes, I think we're into part cussion about the of the and Dr. Cohen: No. Not at all. three. If we are going to follow the agenda, politics tapes, Professor Francione: Dr. Cooperman: Fine. and I think we should, that we should begin We're sitting around Dr. Cohen: I with the questions on the general focus on the talking about the issues raised by the tapes but thought you had finished. research. This list is not meant to be all-inclu- we haven't seen them. Professor Francione: Tom, you talked be- sive, but the kind ofquestions that were raised Dr. Cooperman: I understand that, but peo- fore about the statistics of head injury. You in communications by this group to me priorto ple have seen them, and I think you've exam- talked about the numbers of head injuries that this meeting have to do with the control of ined them and I think you're prepared to ask occur every year. In those statistics that you variables, the use of animal models, the defi- questions about them and, as I say, if we want talked to us about this morning and in those

IV ALMANAC SUPPLEMENTFebruary 19, 1985

published in the Almanac, how many of those ginia in a prospective study of some 500 pa- Dr. Gennarelli: I came to the University in injuries are consequential, survivable or not tients with minor head injuries, it was demon- July of 1976. survivable under any circumstances, prevent- strated that these patients were suffering Professor Franclone: Were the experi- able by simple precautions, self-inflicted? Are significant signs and symptoms suggestive of ments going on before then, here? we making any sort of breakdown there? organic brain damage after no more than just a Dr. Gennarelli: In a fash- few minutes of unconsciousness. In fact, a very preliminary Dr. Gennarelli: That's a mighty complex ion. I believe for a month or two. third of these were not back at work only question. You've got six or eight different patients three months after a minor head Professor Francione: Can you sort of esti- questions in there. Can you break them up one injury. mate the number of animals that have been by one? Neuropsychological evaluation of some of these was done sacrificed throughout the history of the head Professor Franclone: Yes. How of patients using very sophisti- clinical research lab at least back many cated tests, which indicated that of the injury going those injuries aren't survivable under any many as far as 1976? circumstances? patients had evidence of organic brain dam- age. We now think that we can draw a rela- Dr. Gennarelli: To date the number is just Dr. Gennarelli: It's estimated that, of those tionship between that clinical story of minor over 200, 1 think. who die, that there is an irre- patients probably head injury producing devastating conse- Professor Franclone: The protocol that is trievable of somewhere in the mortality range quences in these patients and the evidence in effective, or purported to be effective, from of 15 to 20 percent depending on the kind of the animal studies that even with minor head 1982 to 1987, talks about the use of 250 the of the victim, and so forth. injury, age injury there is evidence of diffuse axonal inju- babboons. What I'm is that the of the saying magnitude ry or organic brain damage. Dr. DavIes: 1987 did itself is of such that survival you say? injury severity Professor Franclone: Can be under the most optimal circumstances is not anything Professor Francione: Yes. done for axonal injury? compatible with our current medical practices. Dr. Gennarelli: You mean the currently run- Gennarelli: so. is Professor Franclone: So those that Dr. We think And this one ning grant? figures of the we have, both in the Almanac and the ones very, very exciting postulates Professor Francione: What I'm talking Professor Franclone: Axonal means nerve we've discussed this morning, don't break out about now, Grant Application NS08803-l3, correct? injuries that really you couldn't do anything damage, principle investigator Thomas Langfitt. This is for anyway, no matter how many primates you Dr. Gennarelli: Right August I, 1982. through July 31, 1987. It tested? Professor Francione: . . . as opposed to, talks about the use of 250 babboons, but to date there have been two hundred animals Dr. Langfitt: Could I respond to that, Barry? say, vascular damage? only used in the Dr. Cooperman: I think it's to Dr. Gennarelli: That's right. Originally, we open anyone, Dr. but sure. felt that one thing happened in axonal damage, Gennarelli: Yes. On the average, that nerve fiber-which in some being 24 a year. Dr. Langfltt: First of all, if we take the fig- that is, that the ure of a million and one-half million individu- cases is a couple of feet long-was transsected Professor Franclone: I was reading re- the moment of the head acceleration. It als who are at risk for head injury in this na- at cently an article that appeared in a Scottish turns out that our have shown on December 1, 1983, an tion, the larger majority ofthose have minor to investigations newspaper involving that that's not the case, and the im- Dr. who moderate head injuries. They don't have the probably interview with a man named Adams, of course, is to is on the Tom. Dr. Adams severe head injuries with the very high mortal- portance, germane your ques- listed protocol, tion, because we felt that there would be made the statement that, to date, the results are ity rate. 1 don't know what the precise percent- very age would be, but taking that number, those little to do from the therapeutic point of view if "academic" and that the team-and I believe the nerve fiber was cut in two at the he was to the team of the individuals who could not survive, under any actually referring comprised instant of If that were the case, then of and the of circumstances that we understand today, injury. University Glasgow University would be a very, very, small percentage. one would have to rely on the regeneration Pennsylvania working on this-has not pro- mechanisms which are A point that Tom did not mention, with re- being intensely studied vided any sort of preventive measures. Now is other neuroscientists, but known this with how to spect to the story of diffuse axonal injury, is by are not to business trying to figure out be effective over distances in the of axons to be the evidence that it is important not only in se- particularly long prevent transsecting going the adult mammalian brain. However, our evi- the first treatment-related that vere head injury, but also in the field of minor breakthrough dence that the nerve fibers, the the will make? head injury. Just this past month, one of our suggests laboratory axons, are not transsected at the moment of in- colleagues published with Tom a paper in the Dr. Gennarelli: First off, let me make a at the moment Journal of Neurosurgery, in which they de- jury. They're clearly damaged comment about using quotations from newspa- of and, to the a chain scribed what happens in primates who have a injury subsequent injury, per articles as biblical gospel. There have of events is set into motion that 12 or 24 minor head injury; again, these were rhesus by been, I can't tell you how many, mis- hours after to cause monkeys accelerated in just the fashion that he injury begins damage- quotations. That particular citation is a described. These animals were unconscious axons that are damaged but not transsected do misquotation of Dr. Adams. for no more than a few minutes, a sort of sim- become transsected. This is what we call sec- That is, axons that aren't Professor Franclone: He didn't say that? ple concussion, or a little bit beyond concus- ondary axotomy. sion. The animals then awakened and were broken become broken by some process that Dr. Gennarelli: You may ask him if he said at the time ofthe but does not be- that. perfectly all right, but when they were sacri- begins injury ficed in about two weeks, there was evidence come fulfilled for some to 12 to 24 hours. So Professor Watson: Well, you're saying he of diffuse axonal injury in the brains of those our efforts now, and this is very current, are to didn't. to animals that had been unconscious for no more try understand that process by which a dam- Dr. Gennarelli: My understanding from him than two minutes. This is important because it aged axon goes from being structurally intact, is that that was a question to which he re- that is, but still has only been in the past few years that we damaged together, to the point sponded and the response was misquoted in of And there's the have recognized the consequences of minor being disrupted. therapeutic context but, that aside, let me answer your in that if we can understand that head injury. challenge, question. There exists no specific therapy for mechanism and to it Quite frankly, neurosurgeons of the past develop strategies prevent brain injuries in clinical use today despite tri- then there's a now of a used to sort of brush aside the complaints that possibility specific als of innumerable therapies. One by one treatment for brain brain people had after having been knocked uncon- damage-traumatic they've been shown by at least some group to scious for brief periods of time, oftentimes damage. And, as I mentioned, we now do not be ineffective in one manner or another. The have a treatment for brain thinking these were functional, or emotional specific damage. only specific therapy that exists at this moment types of things, or goldbricking, whatever Professor Franclone: These experiments is the removal of blood clots or what we call term one wishes to use. Largely through the have been going on, at least with respect to mass lesions, that is, damaged areas that are efforts of the group at the University of Vir- your participation, since 1975? Is that correct? taking up excessive space in the brain. All

ALMANAC SUPPLEMENT February 19, 1985 V

other treatments are currently aimed at either Dr. Fisher: I would rather do that. Other- cal variables in this whole laboratory effort is reducing swelling of the brain, reducing the wise, the dialogue is not relevant to what the correlation of those clinical events with the water content ofthe brain, the blood content of we're after. input phenomena, the biomechanics, the shape the brain, or other measures to treat what we of the acceleration its and width Dr. Cooperman: Gary, you had a question. pulse, height call of the themselves. and rate of onset, all of these variables corre- epiphenomena injuries Dr. Cohen: Well, I don't think I'll interject There is no specific treatment for the injury it at this moment. I think the decision as to the lated with the physiological observations cor- itself. So we have not as of this date, related with the structural observations from yet, pro- direction of the discussion is more important. duced a treatment for brain damage. We're the of these and in some in- Dr. Fussell: pathology injuries confident that we're on the road to be If I might ask Dr. Gennarelli stances, with biochemical alterations in the right which off able to do that, and we're confident that the one question, I think might move us brain. So, we chose the anesthetic this into that is more particular data shows us that it's to have a something precise. This that we did with those consider- possible spe- is item "C" under Roman "3," the matter of paradigm cific treatment. ations in mind, and chose two to be anesthesia. I think if these animals were anes- agents These are all very new ideas, and whether used conjointly: a drug called phencyclidine, will become realities in the future, I can't thetized, I think the objections of the PETA trade name which is a they would I think, therefore, it's Sernalyn, drug given by tell you. But I think we're further along than a people disappear. injection, and an inhalation drug, nitrous lot of other in the area with to important that we ask the question, why are oxide people regard not anesthetized, to what are this. There's no one else in the world who has they degree they Professor Franclone: anesthetized, and so on. So could shed Where was it in- available to them this model of diffuse axonal you How was it into the animal? light on that? jected? injected injury. Dr. Gennarelli: With a needle. Dr. Gennarelli: Sure. I'm not sure that I Dr. Langfitt: Tom, if I make a might just would with that PETA would Professor Francione: Yes. I understand couple of comments in response to the ques- agree you disap- on the basis of this one issue. It's obvi- that, but where? Intravenously or into the body tion: It is not really possible to develop effec- pear the most crucial issue, I think. I cavity? tive diagnostic and therapeutic modalities for a ously guess disorder until the basic mechanisms the best way to approach it is by what the par- Dr. Gennarelli: No. It was given, usually, responsi- ticular needs are for anesthesia in the ble for that disorder are understood-ranging, particu- intramuscularly-sometimes intraperitonially, lar that we're Those needs but The that's for example, from deficiency of insulin as a experiment doing. usually intramuscularly. way cause of diabetes to causes and treatment of are several-fold and they sort of run longitudi- done is that the animal is in a cage that has a cancer. One needs fundamental break- nally with the experiment. movable back. The first need is to be able to the animal Professor Francione: A throughs. The more fundamental the informa- get squeeze cage? handled so that he is not a threat to Dr. Gennarelli: A of af- tion basic to the understanding ofthe the cellu- safely per- squeeze cage type sonnel and not a threat to himself while lar mechanism, and the abnormalities that lead being fair. If the rest of you are not familiar with taken from the animal care facility to the that, that's one of the common that the to the disorder, the greater is the likelihood ways that one can an effective laboratory. animal's brought forward to the front of the develop therapy. The need is need Cancer is a In the second for anesthesia the cage and given the injection. One of the most very good example: past to the time of the minor four or five the discoveries of molecular prevent pain during important points about this particular drug is years, that's used for insertion of the various of as relate to cancer surgery that the drug provides an adequate level of an- biology genetics they lines. And, I should at this have monitoring say algesia, that is, absence of pain sensation, absolutely staggering implications, many that those are of which results from animal research. When point, procedures absolutely without producing depression of respiratory identical to the kinds of that we do in the cause of cancer, or of different kinds of things function and cardiac function which is one of the intensive care unit or at the bedside. That cancers, is determined, we're not to its unique properties, in distinction to many of going stop is, we're not about brain at that because we don't have the talking major surgery the other commonly used drugs such as narcot- point therapy or chest or abdominal here. to treat them. Rather, once we find the cause, major surgery ics or barbituates whose functions depress re- We're talking about minor surgical procedures and cardiac in almost we will try to develop the therapies. And it spiratory activity activity could be that in kinds of cancers it's such as we commonly use out of the operating the same linear fashion as they depress the given go- room in to be a time, a decade or patients. ability to appreciate pain. This is of particular ing very long maybe The third need for before we find the to treat the anesthesia, and perhaps advantage, to use a drug like Sernalyn, be- longer, therapy one that will be the most debated, is the disease. We don't once we've found the actual cause the laboratory is not adjacent to the ani- stop traumatic insult itself. if I outline cause; we forward to to find the Maybe just mal care facility, so the animal has to be taken go try therapy. these first, then we can back to Now, as Tom described, we think we under- go specific from where he lives to the laboratory. We feel areas. stand the fundamental basis of brain that that a drug like Sernalyn can do that very injury The fourth is the need for anesthesia while form a diffuse axonal It be a safely because we don't have to worry about injury. may long the lines, the intra- time before we derive the that's removing monitoring whether the animal is going to stop breathing therapy going veneous lines, the line to measure intracranial to be effective in these or whether his heart's going to slow down ap- patients, particularly And the last need for anesthesia is in for that twelve- to window pressure. preciably because this drug does not have the twenty-four-hour the and is one that exists between the time of the and general recovery phase, again property of depressing the heart and the blood injury that can be some of debate, after the the time of the secondary axotomy. However, point pressure. brain injury has been achieved. Professor Francione: How far in advance, if we succeed in so doing, then we're going to Now to subserve all of those various needs, Tom, is this administered before the have an enormous impact from this research. Sernalyn and you can appreciate that they're a is inflicted? Professor Francione: A than complex injury actually greater impact of needs from able to handle the Dr. Gennarelli: Well, the answer is that it's all of the that has been used group being say, taking money animal to absence of and so forth. variable from several minutes before to an over the and to safe- safely pain years, trying develop It's clear that a lot of must have hour before and to outlaw blows fairly thought guards precautions, trying to into this, in order to the Professor Francione: Several minutes be- to the head in such frivolous as go develop agents ways boxing? that we feel are most appropriate. There are fore the actual injury? Dr. Fisher: I don't see any point to this one- several considerations that we needed to con- Dr. Gennarelli: It's possible that that's in discussion way about the merits of scientific sider when choosing the anesthetics, amongst the range-depends on how many doses of research, and it seems to me a waste of time which were the animal's inability to feel pain Sernalyn are used in any one for most of us here. particular Instead of discussing the and, the ability to be able to examine the ani- animal. of research, we should philosophy be mal neurologically to determine if we've pro- Professor Francione: The protocol says the use of animals in research. discussing duced a coma and, if we have, to be able to that the animals are given a single parenteral Professor Francione: Well I have specific assess the depth of that coma, the severity of dose of phencyclidine, one milligram per kilo, questions. If you want to hear them I'd be that coma, and any other neurological abnor- on the morning of the experiment-that's at happy to ask them. malities that may be present. One of the criti- page 192 of the protocol. The protocol later VI ALMANAC SUPPLEMENT Februar 19, 1985

says that it takes between two or three hours to dissociative anesthesia. We don't use Sernalyn Dr. Gennarelil: I think you're getting your- intubate the animal, to get all the monitoring or phencyclidine but we do use dissociative self a little confused. The studies on memory devices placed, and to pot the animal's head anesthesia in our neurosurgical procedures in -let me answer your question so that your into the injury device using the dental-stone. Is the operating room. Just as in the experiments, confusion can be dispelled. The studies on the protocol incorrect? the whole objective in clinical anesthesiology memory are performed by Dr. Stellar and his Dr. Gennarelli: It's incomplete, I think. I today for neurosurgery is to try to keep the pa- colleagues. The animals are trained, as I men- think maybe Dr. Langfitt could speak to this tients as light as possible. We've learned over tioned, for some period of time, usually two to point of protocols in grants. Dr. Fisher and I the years that the deeper the anesthesia, the three months beforehand. They are not trained had a little go-around about this and there greater the complications. Under dissociative under anesthesia. They are trained by Dr. Stel- seems to be some concern-as this is an exam- anesthesia, the patients appear or often look lar or one of his associates working with the ple of-of how detailed one's protocol should like they are awake. For example, patients will animal on a one-to-one basis at the cage, using be in a grant. The purpose for the protocol in a open their eyes and look around while on the the techniques that he has developed to train grant may be substantially different from the operating table when one is doing a and ingrain memory and learning behavior purpose of the protocol, let's say to the Ani- craniotomy to remove a brain tumor or operate into the animals. The morning mal Care Committee. Perhaps Dr. Langfitt on the spine, and they'll move a bit from time Professor Francione: But you said it takes could address that global point; he has more to time. It really takes the judgment of an ex- three hours. experience with grants. perienced anesthesiologist to know what isjust Dr. Gennareili: Would you please allow me Professor Francione: Before he does that, right. Any time an animal or a patient has to finish the answer? can I perhaps flesh out my questions so Dr. movement, one has to make a judgment as to Professor Francione: You are doing most Langfitt could do it all at one time? whether the animal or patient is experiencing of the talking. Dr. Cooperman: Sure. And it would be pain. With experience derived mainly from the Dr. Gennarelli: Well, you asked a ques- good to get the reason that you feel you want operating room and transferred into the labora- tion to press this point. tory, the investigators think they can do that Dr. Gennareili: The morning of the experi- Professor Francione: The discussion in Al- quite well. The reason for having the infiltra- ment on which Dr. Stellar wants to ingrain a manac states that the animals were anesthe- tion anesthesia, however, is to do everything new memory, that is done prior to the animal's tized at the time that the injury was inflicted. possible to relieve pain. Under some circum- leaving his cage, before he is anesthetized, be- And, in looking over the protocol and in the stances it can be somewhat difficult to know. cause that's the way the old memories were in- published papers, it appears as though the fol- As I understand it, from the experience of the grained. Some of these are called pattern re- lowing regimen was used: On the morning of laboratory, where I have spent some time but versal changes, that is, there's a choice of two the experiment, approximately two to three not nearly as much as my colleagues, the sin- objects and the animal has learned that one is hours before the injury was inflicted, one mil- gle dose of phencyclidine generally suffices. always correct and he gets a food reward for it. ligram per kilogram of phencyclidine was ad- Professor Francione: Three hours before On the morning of the experiment the investi- ministered to the animal. The animal sponta- the injury? gator goes to the cage, and now what pre- neously ventilated seventy to eighty percent Dr. Langfitt. Yes. Tom and I were reading a viously was the correct object is now made to nitrous oxide until one hour before the injury, volume on phencyclidine in which two distin- be the incorrect object, and the animal has to and I'm reading from the protocol, guished anesthesiologists regarded it to be learn that prior to going down, prior to getting through the endotracheal tube, the animal one of the best general anesthetics ever devel- his anesthesia and going down to the spontaneously ventilates seventy to eighty oped laboratory. percent nitrous oxide anesthesia until one hour Professor Franclone: That's funny, be- Professor Francione: But you say in the before acceleration, after which it breathes cause the materials that I've been reading say protocol that it takes between two and three room air, infiltration anesthesia is utilized at Sernalyn is hours to get the animal prepared for the injury all surgical sites." If you're using infiltration Dr. Langfitt: . . . May I finish? As a matter and on page 201 of the protocol, it says within anesthesia, there must be some need for it if of fact, a single dose is ordinarily all that is the hour before head injury the baboon is the animal was anesthetized, and that if the needed because it generally lasts for two to taught several new and therefore, recent, phencyclidine and nitrous oxide combination four hours, and the acceleration occurs some- memories. What is the purpose of stopping the was working all the way through up until the where around two hours after the initial dose. nitrous one hour before the injury earlier, as time of the injury, there would be no need for But, as Tom has indicated, when a second you say, earlier in the protocol? What is the infiltration anesthesia. dose is needed it is given; in the vast, number purpose for that, and how do I understand the But in any event, the protocol also says that of cases it is not needed. statement on page 201? within the hour before the the Professor Francione: So then the injury, animals protocol Dr. Gennareili: Well, let me just make a -at least some the animals, it's unclear- would be inaccurate, or of incomplete. general comment on protocols. Protocols are are new memories. It's unclear to me taught Dr. Langfitt: Yes; the other point is that one guidelines. They are not etched in stone, and how can be new memories to ani- you teaching is limited in the amount of space in which to they are very mobile. That is, the protocol that mals who are under the influence of a dissocia- present this material. Proposals are very long, you have before you has probably changed, tive. The itself shows the ani- excerpted tape so ordinarily one puts down what the general not in large degree, but in specific detail, as mals around on the table. There are moving operating methodology is. Exceptions to all we've felt that better ways of. activities on on that ta- since one could very purposeful going these things are not included, Dr. Cooperman: I'm going to take a privi- ble. At one point a baboon twists the same go on with pages of exceptions. of convener in this to talk about protocols five different I lege way times. suspect one can say Professor Franclone: How could you teach because I think we're getting off on an that those could be characterized as random a baboon a memory within an hour of the inju- unproductive route. The purpose of a proposal movements, but what is the that possibility ry if the animal is on phencyclidine with ni- is to tell people something of what you're go- that sort of could be random? The ani- activity trous oxide? I'm just curious as to how that's ing to do. It's not at all to tell people in precise mals are at the restraints. grasping done as a practical matter. The protocol says detail exactly how each experiment is going to Dr. Gennarelli: If we could respond to one that animals are taught memories within an be conducted, because the expectation is that point at a time, I think it would be easier. hour before the injury. Now if you've admin- you're going to find things out as you do the You're getting a lot of questions mixed up and istered phencyclidine, which is a dissociative experiments which will impinge upon how it becomes hard for us to answer them in such - I believe that it is used by some illegally as you do the [next] experiments. I think it's a global fashion. a recreational drug called PCP or Angel Dust unproductive for you to persist in a line of Professor Francione: Were the animals -and if the animal is under the influence of questioning based on a protocol which may anesthetized at the time of the injury? phencyclidine and nitrous oxide in the hour have many inconsistencies when compared Dr. Langfltt: Let me try to add a bit to what before the experiment, how do you teach with the actual procedure. What bothers me Tom said in describing the characteristics of behaviors to the animal? about this is that I thought, and still believe,

ALMANAC SUPPLEMENT February 19. 1985 VII

that what you saw disturbed you, and I really you get when you walk up to a patient and say was one of the intentions because we wanted think it makes sense for you to use the oppor- "Is that patient comatose, or is that a patient an agent that would allow us to perform a neu- tunity presented by this dialogue, to tell us who is doing differential calculus? Does he rological examination but still enable the ani- what you found disturbing that actually hap- have the capability of doing differential calcu- mals to be pain-free. rather than on a written lus with what I see and what I can observe pened focusing proto- Professor Franclone: So the animals were col, in order to see whether there is a fault in from that person or that animal?" Now, what I pain-free at the time of the injury? the experiment, which is one possibility, or think you're really asking is "Does the anes- whether there isn't a fault and it's just some- thesia last sufficiently long to be present in Dr. Gennareill: Yes. Now whether that took thing that's disturbing but which has a very sufficient quantities at the time of the injury." one dose of Sernalyn or two doses or four clear rationale. Is that what you're really asking? doses was entirely dependent on the animal because there's a lot of as with Professor Franclone: But, one of Professor Franclone: I have that variability, any Barry, questions in of the which is about the concern whether the animal was anesthetized drug, terms its effectiveness, the duration things very disturbing of its action and so forth tape is that the animals appear to be properly before the injury, at the time of the unanesthetized so I did read the protocol and injury, Professor Franclone: In this paper. published research. Dr. Gennarelli: Why don't you ask them one Dr. Gennarelli: Now let me finish the re- at a time? Dr. Cooperman: I understand why you did sponse. I mentioned that one of the ways that it. I'm not saying that a reasonable person Professor Franclone:. . . after injury, and one can tell if an animal is having pain is by would not act as you have. That's not my at euthenasia when the brains were frozen. these observations. There are other ways. One could draw levels and relate them to nor- point. My point is that I think it's a mistake to Dr. Gennareill: Why don't you ask them one drug believe that what is written in an NIH protocol at a time so that mative data. We did not do that. One of the will be followed the other things to do is to make observations of slavishly by investigator. Professor Franclone: Well I've asked- the kinds of that are That is not the general practice within the sci- this indicates the need for a science physiological responses The of the perhaps characteristic of Those are well de- entific community. purpose pro- adviser-I'm to ask the pain. fairly the thrust of the research; trying desperately you tailed in all literature, are constant. posal is to outline whether the nitrous was they very the details all the time. And so, if question concerning When a human or an animal feels its change you one hour before the because if pain, have about what saw stopped injury, heart rate its blood questions you the nitrous was one hour before the in- goes up, pressure goes up, stopped its respiratory activity generally gets a little er- Professor Watson: Were we that mistaken and there had been a single adminis- jury only ratic and usually goes up. We've monitored in what we saw, that the animals appeared to tration of at the dosage of one phencyclidine, those things in every experiment. We've be unanesthetized? milligram per kilogram on the morning of the monitored blood pressure, heart rate, respira- Dr. Cooperman: Let's talk about the state of two to three hours before the inju- experiment tory rate and brain wave activity. And in no in- the animals before the injury. I think that's ry was sustained, it seems to me that an argu- stance immediately before the experiment what bothered you and that's what we should ment could be made, and it seems to me from have we noticed alterations of those physio- be talking about. what I've read that the argument would be a logical parameters of the type that would be Professor Franclone: one, that the animals were not anesthe- I have here the re- strong consistent with pain. search paper written by Dr. Genneralli called tized. In fact, part ofthe purpose of the experi- Professor Watson: "Diffuse Axonal and Traumatic Coma ment was to perform a neurological examina- On the film which has Injury of in Primates." I have now at tion immediately after the injury with which not been shown, one the researchers says stopped looking that an animal which is about to have his head the protocol. The research paper reports that any trace anesthesia would have interfered. bashed, "It's off anesthesia." But this "behavioral, psychological, and neurological Dr. Gennareill: O.K. Now you've got a you say didn't occur. observations were performed one hour after question that we can answer. nitrous was stopped." Now, is one also not to Professor Franclone: But I had that before. Dr. Gennareill: You didn't ask-I didn't say believe what one reads in the that didn't occur Dr. Gennarelli: You have to distinguish be- Dr. Cooperman: No. No. I think the paper tween the absence of pain sensation, which is Professor Watson: I thought you said that is a better what we were after, and an animal being co- you never noticed that the animals were suffer- Professor Franclone: Could you please ex- matose as a product of a drug. Those are two ing pain? that to me then? areas that times are related areas, but are plain many Dr. Gennarelli: That comment specifically Dr. GennarelH: Those behavioral observa- not necessarily always related. That's what refers to the disconnection of the nitrous oxide Dr. mentioned is what a dissociative tions were not the trained behavioral observa- Langfitt from the animal prior to the injury. That's tions that you've alluded to before. Those anesthesia compound does, what it does. That what the local term "off-anesthesia" meant. is, it allows the animal to be, or the human to were observations of the animal's behavior, And that's one trouble one gets into by extract- that I mentioned before, that we record in a be, pain-free, that is, incapable of feeling pain out of context. That's sensations, but still does ing things specifically semi-systematic fashion. Behavioral observa- not render the patient what that meant, that the animal-when the or the animal into a coma, which is our com- tions being, "Is the animal awake? Is the ani- laboratory workers speak of "off-anesthesia" mon of what anesthesia is. The mal comatose? Is the animal apparently nor- conception they are talking about the inhalation agent, the mal? Is he apparently not normal?" Those are common lay conception is you get a shot or nitrous oxide. behavioral observations. you get a gas and you fall asleep and you don't neurological Dr. Cooperman: Gary? feel anything. That's deep anesthesia. Disas- Dr. Cooperman: Could you give us an indi- Dr. Cohen: I'd like to answer to sociative anesthesia has analgesia, which is get your cation of what that would constitute so that one of the that raised. Was there the absence of pain sensation with the pres- questions you we're clear about what you're talking about? time or is there reason for to sacri- ence of varying amounts of cognitive or mo- any any you What do you actually observe? fice an animal and nervous tissue in the tion function. It's a difficult concept, I agree. study Dr. Gennareill: Well, the state ofthe of of general That's the kind of anesthetic that Sernalyn is. absence anesthesia-in the absence anes- monkey and what he does either spontane- One can monitor the effective effect of thesia within the brain? or inducement or stimulation is ously by Sernalyn in several ways. One can do it behav- Dr. Gennarelli: No. what's observed. That's sort of a fundamental that is, with with a Dr. Cohen: O.K. because that was clinical observation that one makes and is one iorally, experience particu- your lar one can an of at the moment as stated. of the species, get appreciation question whether they're feeling pain or not. That's Professor Francione: Although I now real- Dr. Is it rate of is it Cooperman: blinking, something that is a clinical judgment, and in ize that I'm not supposed to rely on the proto- reflexes, is it that kind of stuff? our clinical judgment the animals were not col, but the protocol talks about how, in some Dr. Gennarefli: No, it's a general gestalt that feeling pain. They were clearly moving. That cases, the animals have their brains frozen by

VIII ALMANAC SUPPLEMENT Februarv /9, 1985

having their skulls exposed and then liquid ni- Dr. Cooperman: I'd like to move on. I'd with no anesthesia, purposely. That's what we trogen applied to the exposed skull. The proto- like to move to another area ifwe can, because did at the NIH, in-house at the NIH, in those col does not mention, anywhere, the use of an- I don't know how much more we're going to early experiments. Those experiments were esthesia in that procedure. get out of this one. reviewed. The laboratory was visited by one Dr. Gennarelli: A reasonable person would Professor Franclone: I have many ques- of the directors, and those experiments were assume that that's the case. I think that's what tions on this area, additional questions on this approved. The laboratory is much more so- Barry alluded to with regard to the NIH proto- area, as I do on the other areas. I do want to phisticated now than it was 15 years ago. That cols. I think that's the-what is done is those finish up with one thing. Dr. Langfitt men- argument could still be made, with extreme animals are re-anesthetized before any sacri- tioned before that he has consulted sources validity, should we chose to make it. The fact fice procedure if they're in any way capable of that inform him that Sernalyn is a completely is, that we've provided an anesthesia, albeit a feeling pain: they are anesthetized. proper and wonderful anesthetic agent. I light anesthesia, but sufficient anesthesia at Professor Franclone: Well let me ask you would like to know, and I sincerely mean this, the time of the injury to preclude the animals this. Tom. In this paper on diffuse axonal inju- what sources he's talking about because the from appreciating pain. The fact of the injury ries, you say that coma, or unconsciousness, ones I've looked at state the following: is, that it occurs in a hundredth of a second. following the injury can last as few as fifteen Sernalyn is a dissociative agent useful 'rather The coma is instantaneous. At the time of the minutes. is that correct? I'm reading it now. It for its tranquilizing properties than for its use- coma, the patient, the animals, are incapable says "cerebral concussion coma of less than fulness as anesthetic." (Veterinary Pharma- of feeling pain because of the coma. And sim- fifteen minutes' duration"? cology and Therapeutics' Fourth Edition.) ply, the duration of the insult which causes the Dr. Gennarelli: Yes. Soma's textbook says that although immobi- injury is too short for a pain impulse to be reg- Professor Franclone: It also says "uncon- lizing or sub-anesthetic doses are particular)' istered by the brain. sciousness-coma-was defined as the ab- valuable in subhuman primates and other ani- Professor Francione: What sort of pain do sence of any eye-opening (spontaneous or in mals which are difficult to handle, the use of they feel when they recover from the coma response to noxious stimuli) in the absence of phencyclidine as a total anesthetic, "should be which may be as few as 15 minutes after the occular injury or occularmotor palsy." If the questioned because of the tremors and poor injury?. animals are anesthetized and they are anesthe- muscle relaxation." I note that the nitrous ox- Dr. Gennarelli: Can we handle one point at a tized before injury, at injury, and after injury, ide was removed an hour so its-an hour be- time, please? what is the purpose of applying noxious stim- fore the injury-so the phencyclidine was the Professor Franclone: Sure. There are just uli to an animal that is properly anesthetized operative agent and, so far as we know from so many of them. with phencyclidine? the protocol it's only a single dose. And, fi- Dr. Gennareill: There are other issues in- Dr. Gennarelli: Well, you can't have it both nally-and 1 have other sources as well, I volving the anesthesia that I pointed out to Dr. ways. You can't have us test whether they're don't want to bore you with that, but, in a re- Fussell's question. If you want to address the feeling pain, and not test whether they're feel- cent letter from Dr. Wall, who's director of long term effects, it's fairly characteristic of ing pain at the same time. The purpose the cerebral functions group at University Col- patients in the recovery phases of brain injury Professor Francione: What are the noxious lege, London, Department of Anatomy, and not to complain of pain, to require virtually- stimuli that you use? Editor of the British journal, Pain, he stated- virtually no-pain medication. This is almost Dr. Gennarelli The purpose of applying a in a letter which I have- that "these animals an absolutely regular part of our clinical expe- noxious stimulus, which is a pinch, is to see if were not anesthetized at the time of the head rience in taking care of patients as they respond to pain. injury." And he bases that on the published neurosurgeons. Patients recovering from se- Dr. Langfltt: This is exactly the same thing work of Dr. Gennarelli. I have that letter. If vere brain injury do not complain of pain. that we do in the clinic every day. In other anyone wants to see it, he is welcome to see it. Professor Franclone: Tom, how long are words, a patient comes in with a severe head I also have other letters from other physicians these animals permitted to survive after they injury. The Glasgow Coma Scale has three and scientists who have looked both at the pro- come out of the coma? items: verbal response, eye opening, and re- tocol, which I guess they put more credence in Dr. Gennarelli: That depends on which of sponse to painful stimulation. The than this group does, and in the published pa- the many faculty investigators is performing neurosurgeon or neurologist pers that Dr. Gennarelli has produced. I would the experiment at that time, and what his goals Dr. Gennarelll: Sure. like to go on to the are for that experiment. So there's quite a Dr. Langfltt: Icontinuing] . . . has always Dr. Gennarelli: Well, you have to give me a range from instantaneous, virtually instanta- tried to determine whether or not a patient is chance to respond. I don't know the informa- neous, termination, that is, within a few min- comatose and also to quantify the level of con- tion upon which Dr. Wall makes his com- utes, to animals that we have kept purpose- sciousness by the response of that patient to a ments. If he has read either the protocol or the fully for long-term pathological studies, who pinch. It's the same pinch that we use in the published works with the same sort of legalis- we, with great effort, I must admit, with great animals. tic viewpoint that you have, it's not surprising effort cared for in the severely brain damaged Dr. Cohen: Well how would you know if to me that he can make some conclusions circumstance. One in the case of three weeks, the loss is due to the injury or due to the like-it's actually still surprising and one in the case of. I believe, seven weeks. Sernalyn? Professor Francione: He's not a lawyer. That range is from a few minutes, to in two Dr. Gennarelli: We may not know, on a sin- Dr. Gennarelli: I understand. I think you ob- cases, more than a month. gle basis, but whether coma or not has been viously have let a lot of things pass by that I Professor Franclone: According to docu- produced by the injury for us, with experi- mentioned. So I guess that means that I have ments purporting to be notes made by you and ence, is relatively easy to determine. That is, to stress them. There are several points in our your researchers, baboon B-47 was injured on the animal is unconscious. There's no question procedure where anesthesia is critical and cer- five different occasions: July 28, 1983; Sep- about it. The eyes are closed. They don't open tain points where it is not. What we feel is the tember 20, 1983; February 3, 1984; twice on to painful stimulation. The eyes are open un- most important points of the anesthesia is the April 4, 1984. B-47 was killed approximately der Sernalyn anesthesia. 1 mean, it's perhaps initial part of the animal handling, for the ani- one month later on May 2, 1984. I am now harder to describe than it is to show you or to mal's safety and the humans' safety who are reading [my notes] from a document that appreciate it, but, look at an animal and look working with the animal, and the second point purports to be a lab note. "B-47 was a trained at his eyes, examine him, and in your judg- is for the minor surgical procedures that are animal whose injury was a little too severe ment, he's either unconscious or he's not performed to insert the monitoring devices. In from him to be testable. Woke up first day, unconscious. my mind those are two critical points where post-injury, unable to sit up, more or less re- Dr. Cooperman: In the interest of trying to anesthesia has to be at its deepest level. The mained in this state over the next month." The complete. this agenda, if there's actual injury itself is not painful, and a strong protocol itself states that the animals would be Professor Franclone: I have hundreds of argument can be made, and has been made in kept alive from ten minutes to two months. questions I'd like to the past, to do that portion of the experiment This goes back as far as 1975, Monkey-A,

ALMANAC SUPPLEMENT Februar 19, /985 IX

INSG #E245/75, Monkey B, INSG they're virtually only-there are only multiple for the Ethical Treatment of Animals narration #E24775. These animals were injured and injuries under two circumstances. The uncom- voice supplied by People for the Ethical Treat- tested behaviorally over much longer periods mon circumstance is that there is some failure ment of Animals, but what purports to be the of time than seven weeks. of the injury apparatus. For some reason it researcher's voice-says, "Well, the animal Dr. Gennarelli: The details of those we can doesn't deliver properly the dose of the trauma is down, ready for the injury," then the cam- go into. Animals A and B preceded my arrival and then an animal is not injured at all or bare- era pans to an animal strapped in what appears at the University and were studied early in ly injured at the time of the insult. That animal to be a highchair, sort of making 1976, 1 think, or 1975. 1 don't know the de- is then re-anesthetized and if the problem can peculiar-looking movements, and the voice - - -" tails of those animals, and can't speak for the be fixed with the injury apparatus, the animal says "there is B whatever the number investigators who performed those experi- is given a second injury on the same date with is-let's just say BlO. "There's BlO. B10 is ments. The other animal was under the direct the intention of going on with the procedure as cheerleading in the corner. As you can see, control of one of the other investigators in our it was.The second circumstance of multiple in- BlO is still alive. BlO is hoping his counter- group and perhaps it would be more appropri- juries are exclusively the animals with minor part has a good injury." There's a scene where ate for him to answer that question, although injury that are being subjected to the detailed a young woman is holding a baboon that has I'm not sure exactly what your question is. behavioral and learning studies. In no instance sort of massive cranial sutures, and they are What is the duration of survival you felt was have we ever given a second injury to those saying, "Oh here is the baboon on the street, inconsistent with something? whose first injury was already severe. and Sir, what do you think about all of this?" Professor Francione: In the Almanac you Dr. Cooperman: O.K. In the interest of time And the baboon falls backward and looks at say that most of the animals are terminated, I'm going to use the privilege of the convener the young woman, and the experimenter says and that the animals are permitted to survive to go to Section 3D of the agenda which deals "He's saying, you're going to rescue me from only for a few hours or days. And then I find with the attitude and comments of the experi- this aren't you?" And there are just a number out about B-47. I also read the protocol menters. I think certainly the attitudes and of scenes like that, that I don't really think you again. I know I'm not supposed to put much comments of people handling the animals as, can characterize as analogous to "gallows hu- credence in that, but it says that 80 of the 250 from things I've heard, were deeply disturbing mor." I spoke with some physicians, recently, animals are going to be used for behavioral to many people. Along with the issue of about what "gallows humor" means, and I don't think that can link that testing. That's more than just a few. It's cer- anesthetics the other issue that some people you really up tainly more than the Society for Neurosciences who have seen the edited tape have really fo- here. It's correct, Barry, I think to say that reported-fewer than 20. cused on has been what they have said to be a people have been very distressed who have Dr. Gennarelli: Yes. I'd be happy to discuss callous, uncaring, attitude on the part of the seen it. They have just been awed by the cal- the current practices in the laboratory if that's investigators as revealed in the tapes which lousness and the lack of regard that those peo- what. I've not seen, but the transcripts of which I've ple have for the animals that they acknowledge seen. So I'd like to to that of this are acknowl- Professor Francione: This is 1984 though get portion suffering-that they explicitly discussion if we could, and then we'll to are we're talking about, Tom. go edge suffering. four ofthe thereafter. Dr. Gennarelli: Yes. I understand. As Dr. part agenda very quickly Dr. Langfltt: I would have to say that we thereafter. Cooperman has mentioned, protocols are quickly clearly don't condone behavior like that, but I fluid. The experiments will go in different di- Dr. Cohen: Who is present at these experi- think it's a mistake to totally disregard the rections. If we say we're going to do one ani- ments? Are senior investigators present? whole issue of so-called "gallows humor" in mal that's chronic, it may change, depending Dr. Gennarelli: It varies during the time relationship to these experiments. It's very tense, the course of on the interest of the investigators in terms of course. The people who are absolutely full- during these experiments for a wide of reasons, not the least of what may be most productive. What I can tell time in the laboratory are a technician, some- variety which is that no one this kind of you with regard to chronic animals is that in times more than one technician, and a enjoys thing. No one these to the the last four years there have been 35 chronic neurosurgical fellow, sometimes more than enjoys delivering injuries animals. We're it for a animals with the mortality in those animals of one neurosurgical fellow. Those fellows are doing very specific seven, that is a twenty-percent mortality rate, either fully trained neurosurgeons who come purpose. It is quite analogous to what happens and we feel that's pretty darn good considering to us for research exposure, or they are resi- in the operating room, particularly under very the virtual 40 to 50 percent mortality in. dents of our own, and generally are in the tense situations. Anybody who ever saw the series M*A*S*H* understands what we mean Dr. Cooperman: The question I think. third, fourth, or sometimes, fifth year of their when we talk about "gallows humor" occur- Dr. Gennarelli: . . . similar in neurosurgical training. They've already had a injuries ring in the operating room. humans. considerable amount of training before that. In addition to that, there are occasionally stu- Professor Francione: Is it directed at the Dr. Cooperman: Ijust have to intervene, be- dents involved in a in the know how can particular project patient? cause I don't long everybody One of the senior is, and I would like to the discussion laboratory. investigators Dr. Langfitt: I would state that no one stay push for circumstances, in the again, I think the is "Is there a except exceptional condones this kind of behavior. Also, along. point philo- for, not for the of experi- to That laboratory usually entirety ence that the vast of such re- sophical objection multiple injury?" the but for of the suggests majority would be one of the That is, is there procedure, portions marks that might have been made were made points. procedure. anything in your protocol which would make by one person who was in the laboratory for a Francione returns multiple injury on a single animal beyond the (Professor during exchange very brief period of time. above.] pale of your experiments or do you feel Dr. Aron? Dr. Were there other Cooperman: strongly that that's perfectly o.k., an o.k. Cooperman: any that the wish to raise on the issue Professor Francione: Could I thing to do? points people of the attitude of the Professor Francione: Can I take a break for investigators? Dr. Fisher: I can see how this would be dis- one second? Professor Francione: Yes. I would like to concerting. It certainly would be to me. But I know... believe that the bottom line is whether the Dr. Sure. We started a little jok- Cooperman: influenced their behavior. I see it as analo- later than scheduled and so we'll Dr. Gennarelli: What, about the attitude of ing probably go to the difference between and to about ten after, but that's about as much as the investigators, is objected, to? gous prejudice discrimination, for example. Although we we can do. Professor Francione: The excerpted tape it Francione to outer room may not like what they said, do you think (Professor goes has a number of very disturbing scenes. There influenced the care and the treatment of the where Dr. McArdle is.] is one scene where the animal is strapped to animal? Dr. Gennarelli: With regard to the multiply- the operating table and one of the researchers Professor Francione: I most do. injured animals, let me make it clear that these goes over and plays with his limbs, and the certainly are the exceptions in the laboratory, and voice narrating-not the overdubbed People Dr. Fisher: Why do you say that?

x ALMANAC SUPPLEMENT February 19, 1985

Professor Francione: I've not watched that Dr. Cooperman: Could we have decorum, please? of M*A*S*H, and I don't want many episodes please? Dr. Cooperman: One more question. to debate with Tom Langfitt about what hap- Dr. Gennarelli: . . . reason] [The being Professor Francione: Dr. Genarelli, in pens in episodes of M*A*S*H, but it seems to that, number one, these whatever were any you of the published works have you ever revealed me, that when we are talking about "gallows going to call them, attitudes or comments, are what how the dental-stone helmets are removed? humor" generally, we are talking about attributable by the tape to the entire labora- in the course of I'm focusing specifically on the fact that the is jokes made performing tory, and all of its personnel are being charac- some sort of, or some sort of stress- excerpted tape shows researchers using con- involving, terized as having made these remarks whereas, ful situation, some sort of siderable force to knock off the dental-stone performing opera- in fact, the period oftime in the PETA tape ex- helmet with a hammer and chisel. There is tion, or whatnot. I don't recall there being in tractions a three month of comprises period some concern that, given that you are trying to M*A*S*H comments made directly about the time out of some nine of the labo- year history distinguish between contact injuries and accel- patient, derogatory or mocking comments, That's less than three of the ratory. percent eration injuries, or trying to distinguish be- made about the patient. But even assuming time and, as Dr. Langfitt mentioned, are at- that this were the case, it would seem to me tween vascular damage and axonal damage, tributable in large part to one particular indi- there is some concern about off a that to the extent that that's morally justifiable, vidual knocking and I'm not it is, I'm to the ex- helmet, the dental-stone helmet, with a ham- saying saying Professor Francione: How do know tent it is some of that you mer and chisel. In one case, the baboon's ear morally justifiable, justi- that if haven't seen the I'm fication has to derive from the fact that one is you tape? just appears to come off on the dental-stone, and curious. If haven't seen the to that on the table you tape? that's in the excerpted tape. I'm curious as to attempting help person Dr. about whom one is or Gennareiii ye been provided with whether that's ever revealed because I can't making mocking joking from the as find it in the and I can't comments, assuming that that's what "gal- excerpts tape well anywhere protocol, find it in the works I've looked at, lows humor" means. However, if you look at Professor Franclone: But they don't iden- published I would admit to that I have not the excerpted tape, and I invite you to look at tify who the people are. How would you know although you read that ever written. I it any time it is convenient for you, I think you what voice belongs to whom from an excerpt? everything you've have read a considerable number of will see that this sort of humor on the tape is I'm just curious. your I'm curious as to whether the use ofthe not telling off-color or obscene jokes in the Dr. Gennareiii m not to be- pieces. going hammer and the chisel is revealed course of doing this research, it is labor the point of how I know who is on the anywhere. humor-mocking-scorn directed at the animals. tape. The tape has been described to me, I Dr. Gennarelli: No, and it wouldn't ever be Dr. Fisher: I won't say it's not, and I don't haven't physically seen the tape, it's been de- revealed because it's not germane to the re- say that I personally would mock animals. On scribed to me in exquisite detail. Those com- sults of the experiment. It's not common prac- the other hand, I feel that telling a joke or ments are basically from one person during a tice in the laboratory, and it's certainly not mocking an animal is not necessarily a punish- three-month period of time. During that same current practice in the laboratory. three-month of time, several of the able offense. I would be more interested in period Professor Francione: When did it cease? whether they did not give the best possible chronic animals were being investigated at the care to the animals because of their attitude. time and that same person to whom these com- Dr. Gennarelli: It ceased when we devel- better methods of the helmet, Knowing what I know about the program and ments are attributed spent virtually every night oped removing and existed under - I wouldn't ex- how successful they've been in keeping the in that laboratory feeding, caring for the ani- only say but unusual circumstances. That is, animals alive, it seems that maybe they did mals that were chronic survivors. They could ceptional, there were a certain number of animals whose give the best possible care even though they not eat or drink for themselves. They could not skin stuck to the inner surface of the told animal jokes. I mean we all tell elephant take care of any bodily functions. And the per- simply helmet. That's one And in even jokes. Maybe we shouldn't do it, and they son to whom these comments are attributed problem. shouldn't have done it in their situation. But did that for a seven-week period in that seven- fewer animals, the dental-stone stuck to the in- ner surface of the helmet. What more important to me is the result ofthe week survivor. Feeding the animal three or metallic you joking see as is the and whether it really influenced their actions. four times a day, with a tube going into his hammering loosening junction be- tween the helmet and the dental stone, not be- I'd like to see the whole tape before making stomach, making sure he didn't aspirate it into that judgment . his lungs, giving him physical therapy and an tween the dental stone and the head. Do you incredible amount of understand the difference? Professor Francione: There is one scene care-that's not men- tioned in all of these activities, of where surgery is on, these whether the Professor Francione: Oh, yes sir, I cer- going mocking are comments are being made, and one researcher laboratory personnel being appropriate. tainly do. to the other it, My view is that their verbal commentary is a say "Stop it hurts him, for Dr. Langfitt: If I could make a com- personal attribute, is not characteristic of the just Christ's sake." And they're making jokes ment. After ten of to laboratory, and I can document that to you by having spent years trying about it. Now it certainly seems to me that this with the enormous tapes that weren't stolen from the laboratory. develop methodology, their attitude most certainly influenced their amount of effort and the and the Ifyou would like to characterize the laboratory expense per- actions. sonal involved, it is reason by comments such as these as being character- reputation beyond Dr. Fisher: It sounds possible that they were to me that would think that we would istic of the laboratory or the current practice of anyone trying to be protective of the animal. deliver a to the animal's the laboratory, then you are wrong. very precise injury Professor Franclone: didn't adminis- head and then bash the animal's head with a They Dr. Cooperman: I'm to this ter going stop part hammer in order to try to get the animal's head any anesthesia that I could see. of the session now. I think we can to fin- agree out of the dental-stone. That is absolutely be- Dr. Gennarelli: I assume it. With ish at about 11:15, the fact that we they gave given yond comprehension to me. all the comments that have been made regarding started a little later than scheduled, and I'd like Professor Francione: I It's whether or not these attitudes should be preva- to turn now to the last full item on the agenda agree. certainly lent in the lab, I would submit to you that this is which is surprising, but the excerpted tape speaks for itself. one of the most successful of PETA's Professor Francione: Can I ask one more and maneuvers with this Dr. Gennarelli: It doesn't for itself, propagandas tape question, Barry? You told me that if I had speak Mr. Francione. You've it in a fash- Professor Francione: I object to that questions to ask that I could ask them. You interpreted ion that choose to it. The facts characterization. said this to me the other day when we dis- you interpret are, and we don't have time to into the Dr. Gennarelli: . . . I don't care if do cussed the format of the dialogue. go you technical details, that the or not, but I'll tell Dr. loosening you why Cooperman. Yes, but not without re- dental-stone between the helmet and the Professor Francione: I know you don't. gard to time, Gary. dental-stone has no effect on the head. There Dr. Gennarelli: . . . The reason Professor Francione: Just one more, is no pathological evidence of damage.

ALMANAC SUPPLEMENT February 19, 1985 Xl

There's no physiological evidence of damage. The second question, which wasn't in- that will benefit only a few people? Shouldn't And there's even no theoretical reason that it cluded in the agenda, is "Is the ground for in- we do more for general nutrition instead, and should cause injury, because of the type of ac- clusion the independent fact of being a specific the like? But that's another story. celeration that that kind of hammer blow, form of life (for example, as in the claim that Dr. Cooperman: Unfortunately, I don't head, or away from the would cause to the brain. animals, as such, have rights) the dependent think we're going to be able to discuss these Professor Francione: I respectfully fact of being associated with humans?" For questions at least at this session, although disagree. example, pets are not to be experimental ani- some of the comments you've made are quite mals. Is the for not animals the Dr. Cooperman: O.K. Fine. I'd like now to ground hurting provocative. As the University goes forward fact that are of or that hurt- turn to the last item on our agenda. Our discus- they capable pain, in consideration of this issue, which I think we sion of this item will be abbreviated, which is ing them intensifies propensity for cruelty have the responsibility to do in many forms, I unfortunate, since in it is one of among humans? The second, of course, is a am sure the points you address will be more many ways much narrower which used to be often the more interesting parts and that is, to try ground, fully discussed in other meetings. There is an and the that we've been ex- invoked. There has been some transition to the opportunity for a last word from anyone or any put experiments first one, as was evident in the discussion haustively discussing into some type of per- persons who wish to make it. spective and context. I know that Dr. Edel has today. Dr. Fisher: To your knowledge, Tom, were been patiently listening and has thought about "How far is the human use of animals for there instances that went beyond the ethical these issues quite a bit. I would be delighted, experiments qualified morally by projected standards expected by the Animal Care Com- sir, if you would begin this part of the human purposes?" For example, learning mittee at the Medical School? about cancers as distinct from testing the discussion. Dr. Gennarelli: Not to my knowledge, no. safety of cosmetics? One could see the reason- Dr. Fisher: How extensive is knowl- able about why you wouldn't want your argument of what on in the head labs? to sacrifice animals for testing of cosmetics. edge goes injury Some Ethical Questions Do know Similarly, with respect to killing of animals you everything? health Dr. Gennarelli: No, I don't know Dr. Edel: Very briefly. I'm not sure how rel- for food, or for safeguarding (extermi- every- evant this is to our discussion because we've nating rats) as distinct from hunting for thing. I direct the laboratory, but there are of the ethics there has other involved with it. I been dealing with only one premise here; sport-in the history faculty investigators that's the of no and, therefore, been plenty of debate about hunting for sport. can't speak for all of them. premise pain is it everything has come within that. Now, all "How far in a controversy over principles Dr. Fisher: If there had been a serious a for these . . . [the questions listed on the agenda] sound to use consistency as criterion breach of what you consider humane stand- one are broader problems, but they are important credibility? For example, does advocating ards, what would have happened? if he or she is not because problems of that sort will specify the animal rights lose credibility Dr. Gennareili: Well, I'm sure I would have That is the kinds of reasons that are given for an ethical a pacifist or vegetarian?" episte- found out about it one or another if I of to decide whether way judgment, and when you have different rea- mological problem trying wasn't in the at one time. If or not an that's directly laboratory sons, then the scope of the ethical judgment is to take seriously argument pre- it were that were, for one reason or that the most sincere something affected thereby. If you say the reason is no in- sented. I might say peo- another, well, if it's that could be ever met in this in something fliction of pain, then you can handle it entirely ple I've regard, my remedied by to the in in Western Canada, were the Dou- speaking people working in terms of: 'We don't inflict pain." and then childhood the laboratory, such as clarification of the kill the animals and that's all there is to that. khobors. When they came to work on the of anesthesia at certain in the from depth points pro- But if the reason is that animals have rights, question of preserving potatoes potato cedure, now that could be done If to kind of fairly easily. then you've got a quite different and bugs, they simply refused spray any it were that I were less picture, at the time, or something thought the question of the right to induce death is paris green, which was used clear, then I would discuss it first with Dr. would hours what's involved. Perhaps all I can say about anything like that; they just spend Shalev, the veterinarian, and he would then and them the several questions is simply to amplify a lit- picking the bugs up carrying away. in touch with the Animal Care could about them, probably get tle bit by reading from the original letter that I Whatever you say they Committee if he and I couldn't resolve the and wrote you. These are questions that try to put were thoroughly consistent-vegetarians in problem. in order various kinds of reasons, and then living peace. Professor Francione: Aron, would the min- raise the question of what kinds of consistency Well, now, I think that's enough to suggest utes ofthe Animal Care Committee relevant to you have to expect: what will be proof of about the comparison of the reasons and ethi- the head be available to other what, and how far is it to cal You can't injury laboratory possible agree on judgments. simply reject giving colleagues in this University to look at? treatment from different bases and reasons and say 'I intuit that this is so, this is practical Dr. Fisher: I can't answer as I'm no for different reasons'? The answer to that last wrong," at least in communication with oth- that longer chairman of the Animal Care Commit- question, of course, is that it is possible. One ers; you have to give your reasons. And so, in tee. I guess that those minutes are not can have many different reasons for doing the raising the questions, I thought we might find public information. I don't know what the policy same thing, but the reasons are very important many different reasons being employed in our would be with respect to colleagues. I suppose because, quite formally, they'll tell you how discussion today, and it would be important that the present Animal Care Committee far you extend when you go beyond the range. practically to distinguish which would operate would have to take that up. I don't know what The question "Who is to count?" is. of at what particular points, and how far they the standard University policy is. course, a very central question since every stretched, and whether broader reasons or nar- Dr. Cooperman: I'm to, on that note, morality does contain a kind of picture of its rower ones were being offered. going terminate this discussion in fairness to congregation, so to speak. And we all know But, as a matter of fact, this didn't happen people who have t&come and who are how long it has taken, in the history of in our discussion, which stayed with one sim- agreed very . mankind, for even the whole of mankind to be ple reason-a minimum of pain, or no pain. busy included within the moral community. The old Can I just make one more remark? There's the Professor Francione: Could we have an- ways of doing it were, at times, to exclude a kind of question Professor Francione raised: other meeting? I have many more questions stranger who's fair game for anything. And Should this money be spent, could this money about this research. Dr. even now, one cannot tell whether the whole not better be spent, instead of on these experi- Cooperman: . . . Oh, I know you do, of mankind has really been included practi- ments, on greater safety devices against and the question of another meeting is on the cal/v. although it has, in our usual verbal re- crashes, things of that sort? That, of course, is table as far as I can see. sponses. Who is to count, then, as to be a a general question of tremendous interest that I want to thank you all for participating, and I member of the moral community? All human concerns the whole of medicine in treating hu- hope we've made at least a first step toward beings? All animals? All forms of life? Only man beings, not simply the question of the re- understanding some of these issues. Thank the higher animals? Only human beings? search done here. Are we spending too much you very much.

XII ALMANAC SLi'PPLEMENTFehruarv /9, 1985