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SEANAD E´ IREANN Adjournment. I have selected the matters raised Senators John Ellis, and Cecilia ———— Keaveney and they will be taken at the con- clusion of business. Senator may De´ Ce´adaoin, 20 Feabhra 2008. give notice on another day of the matter he Wednesday, 20 February 2008. wishes to raise. I regret I have to rule out of order the matter raised by Senator David Norris as the ———— Minister has no official responsibility in the matter. Chuaigh an i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m. Order of Business. ———— Senator : The Order of Business is No. 1, Control of Exports Bill 2007 — Report Paidir. and Final Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of Prayer. the Order of Business; No. 2, statements regard- ing the reports of the Joint Committee on Justice, ———— Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights on viol- ent incidents arising from the conflict in Northern Business of Seanad. Ireland, to be taken at 12.15 p.m. and to conclude An Cathaoirleach: I have notice from Senator not later than 2.15 p.m., if not previously con- John Ellis that, on the motion for the Adjourn- cluded, with spokespersons having 12 minutes, ment of the House today, he proposes to raise the other Senators having eight minutes and on which following matter: Senators may share time; No. 3, statements on forestry, to commence at 2.45 p.m. and to con- The need for the Minister for Health and clude not later than 5 p.m., with spokespersons Children to clarify the position with regard to having ten minutes, other Senators having eight the provision of a community hospital-primary minutes, on which Senators may share time, and care centre in Ballinamore, County Leitrim. the Minister to be called upon ten minutes from I have also received notice from Senator Jerry the end for concluding comments; and No. 16, Buttimer of the following matter: motion 34 re economic outlook, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 3. The business of the House is The need for the Minister of Education and to be interrupted between 2.15 p.m. and 2.45 p.m. Science to make a statement on the urgent need for the provision of a new national school Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I propose an at Ballintemple national school, Crab Lane, amendment to the Order of Business to ask the County Cork. Leader to invite the Minister for Health and Chil- I have also received notice from Senator Cecilia dren to the House to discuss the pharmacy dis- Keaveney of the following matter: pute. A deadline of 1 March has been set for changes to the contracts. When I asked for this The need for the Minister for Transport to debate last week, I noted Senator Feeney felt we clarify the efforts being made at North-South should keep it in the health committee. I note Ministerial Council level to advance an all- from reports in today’s newspapers, however, Ireland train service, particularly the upgrading that there seems to be much disquiet in Fianna of the to Coleraine section of the Derry Fa´il about this issue. to line. I have also received notice from Senator Pearse Senator Camillus Glynn: There are no prob- Doherty of the following matter: lems on this side of the House.

The need for the Minister for Transport to Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Fianna Fa´il commit formally to a plan to develop a rail line Deputies are raising the issues I brought up, that from Sligo to the city of Derry, creating an all- the deadline be taken away and an independent Ireland rail loop. arbitrator appointed to deal with the issues I have also received notice from Senator David before 1 March. Norris of the following matter: Senator : And Fianna Fa´il The need for the Minister for Arts, Sport and Senators. Tourism to provide funding to prevent the imminent collapse of one of Ireland’s oldest Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Yes, Fianna Fa´il national cultural institutions, the Feis Ceoil. Senators, like everyone, are unhappy about this. I regard the matters raised by Senators John Ellis, Jerry Buttimer, and Pearse An Cathaoirleach: Please allow Senator Doherty as suitable for discussion on the Fitzgerald on the Order of Business. 951 Order of 20 February 2008. Business 952

Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I suggest the Mini- these problems? If this was done there no longer ster for Health and Children attends the House. would be an argument. These sections would Many Senators, such as Senator Ross, have asked decide the matter of therapists and education and for this. There should be a debate to hear why the question of the appeals structure. Parents the Minister is sticking to the deadline of 1 March would have the right to appeal at every level. The and why preconditions are being imposed on the Act provides for appeals, assessment, resources pharmacists. I will move an amendment to the and implementation. It is all in it. This Act was Order of Business to ensure this happens. welcomed on all sides in both Houses. I ask that Many Members will have seen a recent tele- we do not let tomorrow’s debate fall into simple vision report on a unique course in Trinity political division. Senators on both sides should College Dublin. We often speak about what is ask the Minister why she has not done what we wrong with institutions, political and social life asked her to do and commenced the Act. It has and the special needs of people with a disability. not been done. I ask that the debate be focused It was encouraging to see 19 students graduate on that point. No one needs to justify anything from Trinity College Dublin with a certificate in beyond that. The debate should be allowed to contemporary living. It was the first class to continue for as long as necessary because there graduate in a pioneering university course for are many speakers in every group who wish to people with intellectual disabilities. I offer con- speak on this issue. gratulations to all the graduates, their families On a lighter note, people will be aware there and their lecturers and pay tribute to Trinity has been a tourist debacle in Cork with the College for leading the way with such an innov- exposure of the story about the Blarney Stone. ative course. It is marvellous to see young people It would appear that people in Cork have been who in the past would not even have got to carrying out unscrupulous fraud. primary or secondary school graduating from a special course in Trinity College that was set up Senator Fiona O’Malley: What is new? and designed specifically for them. This is a wel- Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Senator has kissed come step given the serious difficulties still faced one of them anyway. by many youngsters in obtaining resources, a problem which we have highlighted recently in Senator Joe O’Toole: Vulnerable tourists, the Da´il and the Seanad. It is a real good news naive native holidaymakers and innocent Kerry story which is worthy of congratulations from people have been defrauded. I ask that the Mini- this House. ster for Arts, Sport and Tourism come to the House and tell Senators the truth about the Blar- Senator Joe O’Toole: Tomorrow’s debate on ney Stone. education for persons with special educational needs should raise a number of interesting issues. Senator : Before Christmas emer- In the lead-up to this, however, we should recog- gency legislation was introduced in this House by nise the story in last night’s news of an empty the Minister for Health and Children to deal with school facility for autistic children and an autistic the Attorney General’s concerns about the con- child who cannot get in. The school in question stitutional status of various bodies. I am not sure has stated that the facility cannot open owing to whether assurances were given, but I and many a lack of therapists but the Minister argued that of my colleagues had an understanding that this the school should enrol the child for educational type of approach to legislation would not be purposes only. We must add to this to the fact the repeated except in extremis. There is a report in O´ Cuanacha´in family is facing bankruptcy today’s newspapers, however, of an intention on because of having to go through an appeal in the the part of the Government to introduce a Bill in courts. I was happy to praise the Minister for the House next week to do the same thing for Education and Science yesterday for what she has bodies set up under local government legislation. done. However, there is a simple answer to this. Interestingly, it seems we find out what happens The reason the O´ Cuanacha´ins are facing bank- in these Houses in The Irish Times and on RTE ruptcy and the reason there are empty classrooms rather than in the House. The newspapers report in Castleknock is very simple. It is that the Mini- that not only is it intended to introduce this legis- ster has not yet commenced certain provisions of lation but that it is expected to pass all Stages in the Education for Persons with Special Edu- the Da´il and Seanad by the end of next week. cational Needs Act 2004. Journalists do not always get things right, but I Every speaker tomorrow should ask the Mini- ask the Leader to confirm to the House whether ster to explain herself. They should simply ask it is intended to introduce this legislation next one question. Why has she not commenced the week. If this is the case will he explain why there relevant sections of the Education for Persons was no mention of such emergency legislation with Special Educational Needs Act, which has when a question was raised yesterday about next been approved by both Houses and signed into week’s business, as often occurs? I ask this ques- law by the Government and which would solve all tion tentatively and without any intention to criti- 953 Order of 20 February 2008. Business 954 cise the Leader or anyone else. I expect he was pean Commissioner in the matter of speedy not aware of the legislation. If this is the case, transfer of rural environment protection scheme what is the state of affairs in these Houses when payments to those farmers on REPS 2 and 3. the newspapers know before the Members what Those negotiations have been concluded and I legislation is to be introduced and passed on all understand the payments are being processed as Stages? Where does that leave any debate about we speak. Approximately 6,000 farmers will the relevance of these Houses? I would like a receive their payments by post soon. direct answer to this question from the Leader. I also ask that the Leader ask the Minister to I wish to pick up on a related matter mentioned carry on in this vein and secure a similar commit- by Senator Fitzgerald about the ongoing debate ment for those farmers in the REP 4 scheme. and concerns among Fianna Fa´il and other There has been a suggestion that their payments Government party Senators and Deputies in may be lumped in with the end of year single respect of various issues of public controversy. I farm support payment. The farmers in REPS 4 respectfully say to the House that it is wrong that will face a cash flow crisis if they receive all their public debate is shifting, as appears to be the off-farm income in one single payment at the end case, from these Houses to the Fianna Fa´il of the year. I ask the Leader to ensure the nego- parliamentary party. tiations continue to allow two separate payments to occur during the calendar year. Senators: Hear, hear. Senator : I second the proposal of Senator Alex White: Those opposite may groan Senator Frances Fitzgerald. This so-called inde- but they will say something different to me out- pendent body which is to be appointed to deal side in a few minutes. with the issue of pharmacists’ fees is not really independent, as we know, and the end result is An Cathaoirleach: The issue of parliamentary predetermined. We also know there was no con- party meetings is not relevant. sultation with the pharmacists on the terms of ref- erence. In fact, it was a unilateral action which Senator Cecilia Keaveney: This is pathetic. We was in essence a breach of contract. I strongly are not allowed to speak or discuss anything now. support everything Senator Fitzgerald has said. We learned this morning of the loss of two of Senator Alex White: This is relevant. The our rare white-tailed sea eagles in Killarney. This Senators opposite can have all the din and shout- is a sad occurrence and a blow to our tourism ing they want, but I will finish my point. I have industry. been told by my colleagues opposite on more than one occasion, for example, in the matter of An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant to the the child care subvention scheme, not to waste Order of Business. my breath in the House as the issue would be solved by the Fianna Fa´il parliamentary party. Senator Paul Coghlan: I think it is. I share the disappointment of the Minister for the Envir- (Interruptions). onment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, Dr. Allen Mee, everyone in the Senator Alex White: That is exactly the reac- national parks and wildlife service, and every- tion I expected. This is the position we have come body associated with Irish tourism. These birds to in these Houses. The Government abrogates were absent for more than 100 years. The Mini- the role and functions of these Houses and ster came to Killarney to release these chicks into transfers them behind closed doors to smoke- the wild last year. filled rooms where people clap each other on the back because they, and not the Members of these Senator David Norris: This is not funny. Houses, have the power. Come on.

An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant to the Senator Paul Coghlan: Senators are laughing, Order of Business. There are very few smoke- but it is a serious issue. filled rooms now. An Cathaoirleach: Please allow Senator Senator : The Senator should not Coghlan to continue without interruption. be hurt. Senator Paul Coghlan: This was a great boon Senator Ciaran Cannon: I ask the Leader once to our tourism industry. They are a most again, if I can beg his patience, to liaise with the majestic—— Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Mary Coughlan, for two reasons. First, I An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a wish to congratulate her on her recent success in question for the Leader? We could discuss this carrying out in-depth negotiations with the Euro- issue if he agrees. 955 Order of 20 February 2008. Business 956

Senator Paul Coghlan: The sea eagle is a most role and I would like the media to take note, be majestic bird in flight. I would love Members to present and to listen to our debates. Many fine come down to Dundag Bay with me, go across debates take place across the floor on many Muckross Lake to Brickeen Bridge, out into issues, yet while they are not reported the nega- Lough Leane and over to the shores of Glena tive approach taken by the media, of the kind we under the eagles’ nest—— saw over the weekend, prevails. I was offended by it. An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant to the Order of Business. Senator : Just after the August bank holiday weekend last summer, an announce- Senator Paul Coghlan: I appreciate what the ment was made about decisions made by Aer Cathaoirleach is saying. Lingus in respect of Shannon Airport. The people of Shannon and the west received a considerable An Cathaoirleach: If the Senator appreciates amount of sympathy from all of us around the what I am saying he should obey what I say. country because of the problems they would face. What happened last weekend? The airport closed Senator Paul Coghlan: I want people to for a small number of hours because of the appreciate how important and serious this matter actions of a small group of people. Perhaps they is for tourism. did so to hold passengers to ransom to achieve their own objectives. There are other ways of Senator Cecilia Keaveney: What about the achieving those objectives through normal pro- Blarney Stone? cedures. Those procedures have not been Senator Paul Coghlan: That is in a neighbour- adopted. ing county. Indiscriminate poisoning is no longer We must remind those people in business and acceptable. I accept that this was possibly an elsewhere, particularly if they are paid by the inadvertent occurrence but an educational pro- State, that we in a competitive marketplace. cess is required here. Shannon is in competition with Frankfurt, London, Paris and everywhere else. It is a bad An Cathaoirleach: Senator Coghlan has made idea for us to close the airport on a regular or his point. even irregular basis for selfish intentions. There are procedures to be used and they should be. Let Senator Paul Coghlan: There is wonderful sup- us make sure that we do not go back to the posi- port for this project. tion we were in during the 1980s — the days of strikes where there were no procedures before An Cathaoirleach: I am giving the Senator con- social partnership. siderable latitude on this. Senator Cecilia Keaveney: I start by thanking Senator Paul Coghlan: Perhaps the Leader and the Cathaoirleach for letting me raise the issue of I could have a word about how we might improve the cross-Border train service on the Adjourn- the educational aspects in respect of this wonder- ment today. ful project. An Cathaoirleach: We can discuss that on the Senator : Yesterday, many Adjournment. Senators spoke about the role of the Seanad, the portrayal by the media of it as irrelevant and the Senator Cecilia Keaveney: The reason I said slant put on it over the weekend. I also raised the this is because I might not have needed to raise it leadership role this Chamber can play in respect on the Adjournment if we received reports from of why we should vote “Yes” in the referendum North-South Ministerial Council meetings. I ask on the EU reform treaty. Over the weekend, two the Leader to find out whether Ministers can major organisations overwhelmingly came out in come in here after meetings of the North-South support of a “Yes” vote, based on business and Ministerial Council to explain what has gone on farming perspectives. We have a golden oppor- and the progress that has been made. A consider- tunity to set out our platform and relay to the able amount of activity is going on, many prob- public why it should vote “Yes” in this lems are being solved and many issues are being referendum. progressed but there are a number of issues which I hope the media will take note that we are are either not on the table or are not being doing very well in this Chamber and are raising presented as much as they could be. issues. We want to be noted in that fashion rather Perhaps the Leader might ask whether there is than in the negative way that has been depicted much of a move in respect of having all-Ireland over the past few weeks, including last weekend. health promotion campaigns. This Friday is Lolli- I was offended at being classed as a non-person pop Day, which aims to raise awareness of oeso- in this Chamber and I would like the media to phageal cancer. I declare my interest in this sub- take note of that. We want to play a leadership ject because my father died of oesophageal 957 Order of 20 February 2008. Business 958 cancer. It is now seen as a disease affecting young ourselves and the city down by not dealing with people, particularly young women. Therefore, if that. individual groups are producing awareness cam- paigns, we should support them by running such Senator Terry Leyden: I support Senator campaigns at not merely a Government level but Donohoe in respect of the request I made last an all-island level. Will there be any progress in week about a rolling debate on the EU reform respect of not just oesophageal cancer awareness treaty. but all forms of health awareness? I take this opportunity to wish our troops every success in their mission in Chad. It is a dangerous Senator : I support the mission but is under the control of the EU and request from other Senators for a debate here on supported by a UN resolution. There are 400,000 the Lisbon treaty. The Joint Commit- refugees in camps in eastern Chad, most of whom tee on European Affairs, of which some Senators have fled from Darfur. We owe a great debt of are members, is in the final stages of producing a gratitude to our courageous troops who are trav- report on the views of the different social part- elling there this evening. I wish them a safe jour- ners on the treaty. That report is due to be pub- ney and a safe return after fulfilling their mission. lished next week. I suggest to the Leader that one They will be leading a major deployment of Irish troops in that region. of the ways in which we might have an informed A debate on the EU reform treaty would be and quality debate on the Lisbon treaty is by con- very worthwhile at this very early stage. People sideration of the report and by inviting some of talk about neutrality but that was clearly iden- the people who have contributed to the develop- tified in the referendum in October ment of it to the House. Undoubtedly, the views 11 o’clock 2002 when we inserted into the Con- of organisations like the IFA and ISME will play stitution a clause which states that a considerable role in influencing how the people Ireland could not join a common European of Ireland vote on the treaty. We have a report defence arrangement unless a specific and separ- that captures some of the issues they believe are ate referendum was held. Unfortunately, a important. It behoves this Chamber to debate this number of the anti-reform treaty personnel are report and give our input into it. bringing out these old arguments to try to defeat Another matter that will be very important to this treaty. This House would serve a great pur- the future of our country and which we continu- pose by having a detailed debate about the pro- ally touch upon is the question of how we develop posal put forward by the Oireachtas Joint Com- and stimulate economic growth. Frequently, mittee on European Affairs, which will outline when we discuss this issue, we talk about the our views after receiving a large number of sub- mantra of research and development and inno- missions. That could be the basis for a debate in the House next week if possible. vation. Yesterday, we saw the publication by the Minister for Education and Science of the stra- Senator : Will the Leader tegic innovation fund to stimulate that kind of arrange for the Minister to come into the House work in our third-level institutions. It was to discuss the availability of adolescent psychi- remarkable that the publication of the detail of atric beds? I understand only 12 beds are avail- the plan came after the publication of a letter able in St. John of God services, with 38 people from all of the universities to the Minister on the waiting list, but the nature of the illness expressing their frustration with the way the does not allow for a timeframe in which they report and plan were progressing. I call on the might require hospitalisation. There are no Leader to organise a debate on how we are carry- psychiatric beds for adolescents in the south east ing out this research in Ireland to ensure that and very few beds elsewhere throughout the money is well spent and that it does not replicate country. private money already spent in these areas. I repeat a request I made last week for a debate Senator Nicky McFadden: Or in the midlands. in this House on how we deal with homelessness in this city and people with chronic alcohol and Senator Phil Prendergast: There is an urgent need for those facilities to be increased and I drug issues. There is no more distressing sight would like the Minister to come to the House at than walking across our city and seeing people the Leader’s request. who are inebriated or have drug problems who have prams with young children in them. What Senator Nicky McFadden: Hear, hear. hope do those children have and how can our society help and intervene, given that, unfortu- Senator John Ellis: I congratulate the gardaı´ on nately, their parents might not be able to do this? their action at the weekend in introducing checks Last week, I raised the issue of a centre that was for drugs at some of their checkpoints for alcohol. designed to deal with these issues but which will That is a welcome move and something on which be vacant this summer because the HSE cannot this House should compliment the Garda. I have provide the funding to deal with it. We are letting raised that question here on a number of 959 Order of 20 February 2008. Business 960

[Senator John Ellis.] treaty we invite in both sides of the debate, hear occasions and I am delighted the Garda has now all sides of the argument and have a balanced taken action on it. The Garda should also con- debate. sider the possibility of introducing more sniffer dogs at entrances to nightclubs and other venues Senator : I endorse what Senator de to try to deal with the drugs problem. We know Bu´ rca said. It is important and relevant to the the problem exists and sniffer dogs are probably point I want to make. I heard what Senator the most effective weapon available to the Garda. Ormonde had to say about the media covering Random police patrols in Scotland use sniffer the Seanad. We should not get too prickly about dogs to try to identify people who are either a few pieces written by journalists who do not carrying drugs or have been in contact with drugs. have much to do late at night.

Senator : As we are an island Senator Terry Leyden: The Sunday Business nation I call for a debate on the role of our com- Post. mercial ports and the way they can contribute to both our regional and national economies. They Senator Paul Coghlan: Ten minutes’ work. are access and egress points for major imports and exports and it is important we would have a Senator Shane Ross: I was the butt of one of debate on their role and resources to determine those pieces and I sent the journalist a short e- how they will contribute to the economy in the mail yesterday saying I did not know he was writ- future. There are initiatives such as the Gateway ing for The Sunday Business Post. The way to innovation fund and we need to know how the deal with this is not to respond in a sensitive way ports will be resourced through those initiatives. if we are confident about what we are doing. The We also need to know how they will fit in to the point that should be made, and this is where I national spatial strategy, the way the Government part from Senator Ormonde, is that perhaps some proposes to roll out the resourcing and the imple- of those criticisms are right. It does not seem to mentation of our ports and how that will fit in to have occurred to anybody in this House that per- our national development plan. I call for a debate haps some of the people who say we are a group on that because this is an important issue for the of old dinosaurs and fossils are right because we entire country. Belview Port in the south east is are not relevant enough. I do not understand why a major international port but it must be continu- we should not take that on board. Senator ously resourced. We must exploit the full poten- Fitzgerald pointed to that earlier with her amend- tial of our ports to ensure the economy remains ment calling for a discussion on the pharmacists. strong in the future. A crisis which is brewing will erupt in less than two weeks’ time—— Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: I join with other Senators in highlighting the importance of this Senator Paul Coghlan: Hear, hear. House facilitating a comprehensive debate on the Lisbon treaty. Like other Senators, I am a Senator Shane Ross: ——and for some reason member of the European Affairs committee we, the Members of the second House of the which is in the process of finalising the stages of Oireachtas, cannot even discuss it. That is crazy a first report examining all aspects of the treaty and if someone from the press tells us we are and reflecting the views of the groups that have irrelevant and that we cannot even discuss the come before the committee. If we are considering pharmacy sector, he is right. The Government inviting some of these groups to address the should not be too critical of the media criticising Seanad directly I ask that we would consider it if it does not respond to that and allow us inviting some of the people on the “No” side to debate relevant issues. That is what is important. address us—— Senator Alex White: Including the Fianna Fa´il Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. parliamentary party.

Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: ——because it is Senator Shane Ross: There is one procedure in important that we have a balanced debate and this House which does work in terms of bringing that we are seen to listen to all of the arguments in Ministers, namely, the Adjournment but that being made about the treaty. takes place at the end of the day when nobody notices anything happening. The only time phar- Senator : Deputy Finian macists have been debated in this House is when McGrath. the Minister, Deputy Harney, came here to reply to my Adjournment matter. She gave me a tick- Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: Some Members ing off for raising the pharmacy sector in this mentioned inaccuracies. The best way to deal House but she came here and discussed it. We with inaccuracies being put around about the have that sort of debate late at night when treaty is to confront them in a debate and correct nobody is listening and the members of the press them. I suggest that if we have a debate on the are not here. 961 Order of 20 February 2008. Business 962

Senator Cecilia Keaveney: They should be Fitzgerald that we should afford the Minister, here. We are here. Deputy Harney, the opportunity to come before the Seanad on the pharmacy issue if that is the Senator Shane Ross: That may be so but they appropriate course of action. I have been advised are not. We should raise the issue on the Order in the past that it is not and that it is a matter for of Business or later in the day when members of the joint committee but if it is possible to have the the press are here. Minister attend the House I suggest we do that.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney: Half days. Senator Alex White: Senator Callely can vote for that in a few minutes. Senator Mary M. White: Come to our party meeting. Senator Ivor Callely: Equally, we should afford the Leader appropriate time to contact to the An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has made the Minister, Deputy Harney, to see if she is available point. The Leader will reply. to appear in the Seanad. There is no point in her appearing here alone. The pharmacy matter has Senator Shane Ross: It is no coincidence that been delegated to the HSE. some of those very relevant issues, including autism, which we will debate tomorrow — I thank Senator Nicky McFadden: By whom? The the Leader for allowing time for a debate on Fianna Fa´il led Government. autism, which is a major improvement — the pharmacies and adoption of foreign children, which I raised last night, end with the Health Senator Ivor Callely: The HSE has been in con- Service Executive. It would be relevant if we sultation with the Department of Finance regard- debated not only the Lisbon treaty, which is a ing the budget. The other important player is the good point, but also the HSE, which appears to IPU. If we are to have a full, open and fair debate be a blockage in the progress of so many people’s on the pharmacy issue, we should have a round lives and on so many issues. If we are bringing table meeting with the Minister for Health and people into the House to debate the Lisbon Children, the Department of Health and Chil- treaty, why do we not invite the representatives dren, the Department of Finance, the HSE and of the HSE and put them under scrutiny because the IPU. it is relevant and it would make us more relevant? I ask the Leader to obtain clarification on the contract that applies to the GMS and community Senator Ivor Callely: Homelessness in the city drug schemes. Is the HSE proposing that new has been mentioned in the House, an issue about contracts will apply from 1 March? What mech- which we are all concerned. Great work is being anism is proposed to apply the planned reduction done with vulnerable people with addiction prob- in wholesale margins to community pharmacists? lems, particularly alcohol and drugs, and so-called What is proposed does not add up and will not wet houses have been opened to try to accommo- work. date them but these are complex issues. I pay tribute to the people involved in the services, Senator Pearse Doherty: I support the amend- particularly the out-reach workers on the street ment to the Order of Business. This Chamber who not just offer these people a bed but appro- must debate the matter today. I listened to priate support services. Excellent work is being Senator Kelly’s comments on time and space. done in this area and it is important that the This issue has been brewing since September and House would record what is being done in this is not a new issue. When I sought a debate on city. this last September I was told to raise it when the I recently received a letter from the city man- Minister was debating another issue. I did so but ager confirming to me that he is satisfied he has we continually called for debates. This is the a bed for every person who is homeless in the city second proposed amendment to the Order of but they are not being utilised. I concur with the Business to propose that the Minister comes to view that we should have a debate on the issue and the appropriate players, the HSE and Dublin the House to answer these questions. Senators City Council, should be invited here to consider are aware of the implication if this is concluded how we can ensure better co-ordination and col- — rural pharmacies will close down. lation of the services available which are not being utilised. Senator Paddy Burke: Hear, hear. I listened with interest to the points made by Senator Ross and others. Senator Ross might Senator Pearse Doherty: There is no point in recall that I raised the issue of the HSE some Senators running around in 11 days telling people months ago when I said I had certain concerns they support rural pharmacies if they will not but I was advised that it was a matter for the joint allow the Minister to be held accountable in the committee. I still have concerns about the HSE. Seanad. I appeal to Government Members to I support the view expressed by Senator support the amendment to the Order of Business. 963 Order of 20 February 2008. Business 964

Senator Ivor Callely: Let us have the HSE, the I support the call made by Senator Prendergast IPU and the Department of Health and Children for a debate on adolescent psychiatry, taking in at a meeting. all aspects of eating disorders. This group does not have a strong lobby and is made up of vulner- Senator Pearse Doherty: Let us have the Mini- able people. Sometimes they deal with issues of ster, who is responsible for the HSE, appear in life and death, issues I would like to discuss. I the House. have no objection to discussing what is taking I commend the Leader on agreeing to a debate place. I have no idea why Senator Ross suggests on Malin Head and Valentia within the foresee- we will not be allowed a debate. I agree that able future, hopefully within the next two weeks. autism, adoption and child and adolescent psy- Many Senators have called for this and I am chiatry are equally important as this issues. Let us pleased to see it will be facilitated. invite the Minister so that we can deal with them. Many remarks were made in the Chamber yes- terday about the wider public perception of the Senator Jerry Buttimer: I second Senator Senate. We must bear some of the blame in this Fitzgerald’s amendment. With regard to the respect. We must examine how we do business. debate on the Seanad, I ask the Leader to facili- Last week I sought a discussion on collusion and tate a debate on how Ireland celebrates St. asked that, instead of statements on collusion that Patrick’s Day. At a time when alcohol use has have already taken place in the Da´il and with become more prevalent and the perception of the which many parties were dissatisfied, we would Irish abroad is of an alcohol consuming society, have an all-party motion. The Leader informed given that the Government has extended St. me that this would be raised with party leaders Patrick’s Day to a festival it is important that we on Tuesday. Today, the discussion on collusion debate how we celebrate our national day. It is will take the form of statements. If we are serious important to send the signal to Irish people at about being more than a talking shop, notwith- home and across the world that we are proud of standing the fact that some Members are pleased our heritage, which is not just about the consump- at that, let us agree an all-party motion on col- tion of alcohol. lusion. The issue affects 50 people, killed in this I agree with Senator Ross on the relevance of State as a direct consequence of collusion this Chamber. It ill behoves Members that we see between British paramilitaries and British state reports in the newspaper that Fianna Fa´il forces. Members are asking to meet the Minister. This is the House of the Oireachtas and there should be Senator : I join with Senator accountability here. Fitzgerald in congratulating Trinity College on the excellent work done in awarding certificates Senator Geraldine Feeney: Why do they not to those with intellectual disability. Perhaps we ask? should call on all third level institutions to follow suit. Institutes of technology could do work with people who are vulnerable and who may enjoy Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senator Feeney cannot this after second level education finishes. ride both horses. She cannot go out to the con- Last week I raised the impasse between the stituencies and be against it, she is either for it or HSE and the IPU. There are no unhappy cam- against it. pers in the Fianna Fa´il parliamentary party. To the contrary, last night I saw they were all happy Senator Geraldine Feeney: On a point of campers. We had an open and frank discussion order—— on the impasse, which is where Fianna Fa´il and Government Senators would debate such Senator John Carty: is not in pressing matters. We are working to find a sol- Government. ution. If that does not happen in Fine Gael or the , that is not our fault. The Oppo- Senator Jerry Buttimer: She should vote sition should not come in here shouting and being accordingly on the Order of Business and stop as envious as they are about what goes on at the the hypocrisy. Fianna Fa´il parliamentary party meetings. An Cathaoirleach: We will steer clear of Senator Alex White: Senator Feeney is deliber- parliamentary party meetings. ately missing the point. We are talking about how power corrupts. Senator Jerry Buttimer: The dispute with the IPU concerns the ordinary people of Ireland, who An Cathaoirleach: We will not discuss the Senators opposite purport to represent. They parliamentary party meetings. should vote accordingly.

Senator Geraldine Feeney: I ask the Leader to Senator Geraldine Feeney: If Fine Gael was invite the Minister for Health and Children, working in its parliamentary party, it would not Deputy Harney, to the House. be coming in here. 965 Order of 20 February 2008. Business 966

Senator John Carty: I ask the Leader to raise issue of stem cell research. I note that the first with the Ministers for Enterprise, Trade and adult stem cell clinic in Europe has opened in Employment and Agriculture, Forestry and Food Germany. To date the only significant progress in the price of veterinary medicines manufactured this area of research has come from adult stem in Ireland. They cost four times more than in cells. The debate on the need for embryonic stem other EU member states and the world market. cells is well past as adult stem cells have proven to An investigation should take place and we should have the pluripotent nature required. Previously, debate this to see if there is price fixing. requests were made in the House that the Mini- Two weeks ago I called on the Leader to invite ster make Ireland a centre for biotechnology and the Minister for Agriculture, Forestry and Food adult stem cell research and development. They to the Seanad to discuss REPS. In light of her were not taken up at the time. I fear Ireland recent success in Brussels in getting REPS 2 and might begin to lag behind in this area and we now 3 payments restored to what they were, this is an have a golden opportunity to pursue it. ideal opportunity to invite her to the House. Will the Leader raise with the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the possibility of Senator David Norris: I ask the Leader to con- the prices being paid by supermarkets to the sider giving an hour, for example, next week to farming community being put under the remit of No. 35, a motion in the name of the Independent an ombudsman, as occurs in the UK? In Ireland Senators with regard to banning landmines and at present the price paid to farmers producing cluster munitions. It is appropriate in light of the potatoes is one fifth of the shelf price of potatoes. forthcoming conference. I proposed a slightly What added value is there in putting potatoes expanded version of this in the Joint Committee into a plastic bag and selling them? Someone is on Foreign Affairs and it was passed unani- running the market and ensuring it is paying the mously. Everyone, therefore, ought to be able to retailer and not the producer. That is not right agree to it. It would take only an hour and it is when so many farmers in the potato industry are something practical we could do. going, and have gone, out of business. In light of the fact that former Zambian Pres- ident Frederick Chiluba is standing trial on Senator Nicky McFadden: Will the Leader charges of malfeasance and stealing $488,000 in invite the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and public funds, is at the centre of attempts by the Employment to the House to discuss indigenous Zambian Government to recover $58 million that business? It was very sad last Friday to hear the he and 19 other people salted away in banks announcement of the 500 redundancies in throughout the world and, when president of Arnotts, a company that has provided fantastic Zambia between 1991 and 2001, routinely turned service in our capital city for many years. Some up in Iveagh House to express his gratitude and of the employees had worked for 30 years in accept a cheque for development in his country, Arnotts. This will change the face of shopping in would it be possible to ascertain how much of the Dublin. It will disturb Moore Street. Boyers will money, if any, paid by Irish taxpayers went into be closed too. In the past six months it has been his Zambian pocket? announced that other landmarks in our capital I accept the Cathaoirleach’s ruling that my city such as the Berkeley Court, the Burlington motion on the Feis Ceoil is out of order but it is and Jurys Hotel are to go. Do we want our capital astonishing the Minister for Arts, Sport and city to look the same as every other capital city, Tourism has no responsibility for one of the old- with the same high street shopping as other est and most internationally distinguished cultural foreign capitals? This issue warrants debate. I festivals in this country. Will the Leader raise this accept we must be competitive and that the with the Minister and find out if it is possible to Arnotts trustees must make money but this issue get funding? It would be a disgrace if this splen- is not just about money. It is also about the social did festival disappeared. side of our country. I was surprised that there was a certain amount of jocularity when the death of the eagles in Senator Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : I support the Kerry was raised. This is a significant matter. If it views expressed by Senator Norris regarding the was caused by poison, as appears might be the Feis Ceoil. He correctly pointed out that it is one case, this disgraces us in the international com- of the oldest and perhaps most impressive cul- munity. We are always bleating in the House tural institutions on the island at present. The about the environment, ecology, animal welfare Arts Council appeared before the Oireachtas and so forth but last week some Members were Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, proposing congratulations for the coursing indus- Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs in recent weeks and try. Do we really care about the welfare of ani- the council responded quite generously to the mals? It is not a joking matter. We have a committee’s debate. There was a general consen- responsibility to the other creatures on this sus that the Arts Council needs to focus on com- planet. munity-based events that are largely reliant on volunteerism. Events such as the Dublin Feis Senator : I ask the Leader to con- Ceoil provide a platform for young artists. tact the Minister for Health and Children on the Indeed, many of the household names in the arts 967 Order of 20 February 2008. Business 968

´ [Senator Labhra´sOMurchu´ .] request has been made and we await confir- today will at some stage have had a connection mation of an opening in her diary to enable this with the Feis Ceoil. The Arts Council has to happen. On the two occasions before received almost \80 million from the Govern- Christmas when we invited the Minister to the ment and it should get involved with this. It House, she made herself available at very short would be very sad to lose that event. notice and gave the Members a comprehensive I also agree with the Senator’s views on the report on the up-to-date position of the HSE death of the two eagles. I was particularly disap- matters under discussion. I am confident that if pointed when I saw the photograph in the news- her diary can facilitate it, the Minister will come paper today. I applaud Senator Coghlan for rais- to the House. All the matters raised this morning ing this issue. I recall there was quite a can be discussed with her. She was the first Mini- celebration when the chicks were put into the ster in this Seanad to take a question and answer wild. As a nation, we have always had respect for session with Members and they were very grate- our wildlife, which is a huge tourist attraction. I ful to her for that. will be surprised if this bad news does not spread outside Ireland and is not picked up in other Senator Alex White: It is in the Standing countries. It will not impact positively. If anyone Orders. deliberately did this, they are helping no one and are certainly not helping Ireland. Senator Donie Cassidy: We were able to find out—— Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: Members will share my disquiet that the issue of blood is once again con- Senator Alex White: It is in the Standing troversially in the news with the report that a Orders. stolen laptop in New York contained the blood records of 171,000 Irish people. This raises the Senator Donie Cassidy: For the information of need for a debate about information technology, new Members it did not take place previously. its potential and the risks attached to the infor- mation society in which we live. Obviously there Senator Alex White: It is in the Standing is legislation in this area but we must discuss how Orders. to protect people’s data. There is also the issue of whether such data should be carried around in a Senator Donie Cassidy: I am endeavouring for laptop in the first place. When I read that such this to take place and I will update the House data are supposedly securely encrypted, I am tomorrow, if possible, in that regard. even more concerned. I join with Senators Fitzgerald and Feeney in offering congratulations to the students in Trinity An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is calling for a College on this exciting development where the debate on the matter. abilities of these students are being recognised and acknowledged. I wish to be associated with Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: Yes, a Chathaoirligh. the congratulations offered to them here today. Senator O’Toole expressed his views on the An Cathaoirleach: It is a matter for the Leader Minister for Education and Science, Deputy to reply. Hanafin, coming to the House tomorrow. There Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: Yes. I do not know is much interest from all sides of the House in much about the theory of relativity but I notice this matter and I have no difficulty in this busi- that when some Members speak, time appears to ness being rolled over for next week, with the stand still but when others do so, it passes in a agreement of the House tomorrow morning. blink. Senator Alex White inquired about the new emergency Bill referred to in The Irish Times An Cathaoirleach: I call the Leader to reply on today. As the Government’s representative in the the Order of Business. House, I take my instructions from the Govern- ment meeting on Tuesday morning or from the Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: I have made my point. meeting of the Whips. The meeting of the Whips Go raibh maith agat. this week takes place this evening and we are awaiting a response on the matter into which An Cathaoirleach: I have called the Leader to Senator Alex White is inquiring. At present, I do reply. The Senator should respect the Chair. not have an instruction. When I have one, I will come back to the House first thing in the morn- Senator Donie Cassidy: Senators Frances ing. My office will contact the leaders of the var- Fitzgerald, Paul Coghlan, Ivor Callely, Pearse ious parties and groups in this House to update Doherty and Jerry Buttimer expressed concerns them on the position on that legislation as soon about matters pertaining to the Health Service as I am informed. Executive. Senators might be aware that I made Mention was made of the power of the Fianna a commitment to endeavour to have the Minister Fa´il parliamentary party. This has always been visit the House on Thursday, 28 February. The the case, it is not a new dimension. As has been 969 Order of 20 February 2008. Business 970 stated, the strength of the good backbencher it will be the first week we return after Easter, attending such party meetings is to bring the which I hope will be Tuesday, 8 April. That is the views of the grassroots, the rank and file and of date which is convenient for his diary. the people we represent, not only in the city of Senator Quinn comes to the House with a won- Dublin but all over Ireland. derful track record of achievement in Ireland and I must take his views seriously. He brought to the Senator Mary M. White: Hear, hear. attention of the House the difficulties being experienced at Shannon Airport regarding flight (Interruptions). activity. I was in London on Monday and three flights were cancelled in the afternoon because of Senator Paddy Burke: He needs to bring in the the difficulties being experienced. There is con- Minister for Health and Children, Deputy siderable credibility at stake here in maintaining Harney. continuity and in everyone wanting their flights on time. I sympathise with those who have a Senator Donie Cassidy: Young enthusiastic and grievance but given the position in which energetic Members who come to the House for Shannon finds itself, it needs all the help and the first time are impressed, and we take it as assistance it can get. Ultimately, everyone must a compliment. get around the table and perhaps this should be the kernel to the success of Shannon for the Senator Frances Fitzgerald: His spin is good. future. I am fully confident that Shannon has a great future. It has made a marvellous contri- Senator Donie Cassidy: Senators Cannon and bution over the past 50 years or more since it was Carty offered their congratulations to the Mini- set up. ster for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Senator Keaveney called for an update in the Coughlan, on REPS 2 and 3, and those 6,000 House on North-South ministerial meetings. This hard-pressed farmers concerned with payments. is a worthwhile proposal. Senator Keaveney and It is good news and I join them in offering con- myself are members of the Joint Committee on gratulations. I have an update on this matter and the Implementation of the Good Friday Agree- I will inform the House tomorrow morning on the ment, which meets tomorrow. I have already position on REPS 4. I take the position of agreed with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Senators Cannon and Carty in trying to bring Deputy Dermot Ahern, that he come to the pressure on the EU and to support the Minister House on matters pertaining to foreign affairs for two payments to be made to improve the and I hope I will be able to inform the House cashflow of the hard-pressed farmers. next week when he will be coming to the House Senators Ormonde, Donohue, Leyden, de to update us on North-South ministerial meetings Bu´ rca and Ross expressed their views and con- and other matters relating to foreign affairs. cerns on the Lisbon treaty. I wish to join with Senator Donohue called for a debate on econ- Senator Ormonde in welcoming the support of omic growth. I have no difficulty in providing the IFA and the Dublin Chamber of Commerce for a “Yes” vote on the treaty. time for that. It is opportune because we can reflect on our success, particularly over the past I join with Senator Leyden, and the House, in wishing our troops well in their endeavour. As we ten years. We can look forward to the new Mini- will all be aware, the European Union is a force ster of State with responsibility for innovation for peace. Ireland has a proud record of peace- policy, Deputy Michael Ahern, attending the keeping service around the world, having partici- House to participate in such a debate and outline pated in 58 different missions. This is the 50th the hopes of the new ministry, particularly with anniversary of Ireland’s first participation in regard to the report published last week. United Nations peacekeeping missions and EU Senator Donohue also called for a debate on peacekeeping missions with the United Nations homelessness and alcohol abuse, and Senator support have already taken place in Indonesia, in Callely supported this. I have no difficulty in pro- the western Balkans and in Palestine. We all can viding time for that. feel proud. Many of us live in constituencies Senator Prendergast and Feeney called for a where there is more than one arm of the Army. debate on the problem that now exists in the There are three in my constituency of Longford- psychiatric hospitals, particularly in the case of Westmeath — in Athlone, and Long- beds for adolescent patients. I will pass the ford. Longford-Westmeath is also Senator Senators’ views on to the Minister for Health and McFadden’s constituency. We understand the Children, Deputy Harney. If the Minister is in the important role of the Army. I support the great House in the next week or so, perhaps this can work it is doing and wish our Armed Forces well be brought to her attention by the Senators. in their endeavour. Senator Ellis congratulated the Garda Sı´och- With regard to the arrangement of a date for a´na on its checkpoints for drug and substance the President of the European Commission to abuse. As I stated previously, it was the Joint come to the House to discuss the forthcoming ref- Committee on Enterprise and Small Business erendum on the Lisbon treaty, I understand that that made this recommendation on substance 971 Order of 20 February 2008. Business 972

[Senator Donie Cassidy.] Minister for Foreign Affairs and see what abuse and I want to be associated with the response we get. Senator’s congratulations in that regard. Senator Norris was just one of many Senators I also want to be associated with Senator Ellis’s who asked about funding for the Feis Ceoil festi- proposal that the Garda Sı´ocha´na seriously con- val. Senator Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ , who has signifi- sider making sniffer dogs available at late-night cant experience and expertise in this area, cor- venues, as is successfully the case in Scotland. rectly pointed out that the Arts Council has \80 These should include not only entertainment million to disburse. I am sure the particular event venues but all late-night venues such as eating should and will get the due recognition and fund- establishments where there is much activity into ing it deserves, but if it does not, we want to know the early hours of the morning. about it. The spirit and importance of festivals Senator Coffey called for a debate, with the rel- and events such as this are what contribute to lift- evant Minister present, on the importance of our ing up the spirits of the people. It is good for ports and the roll-out of their development. I everyone Irish to celebrate the traditions of pre- have no difficulty with allocating time for that. vious generations. Ireland is one of the few coun- Senator Doherty pointed out the importance of tries in the world whose music is a trademark. Malin and Valentia coastguard stations. I made a Few countries can say that, but Ireland can. commitment on that yesterday and I will endeav- our to have the debate take place as a matter of Senator Mary M. White: Hear, hear. urgency within the next two to three weeks. The Senator can rest assured that this is a priority Senator Donie Cassidy: The success of our art- item of business for the House between now ists worldwide has meant they have been incred- and Easter. ible ambassadors in terms of opening doors for Senator Doherty also expressed his concerns us. We should celebrate that and I wish everyone on the collusion issue. As Senators know, we have well with getting funding for the Feis Ceoil. ´ statements today on the report from the Joint Senators Norris, Coghlan and O Murchu´ Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and expressed shock and disappointment at the death Women’s Rights on violent incidents arising from of the two eagles in Killarney, which is our the conflict in . Spokespersons number one destination for tourists. I never miss will have 12 minutes’ speaking time and all other an opportunity to visit Killarney and go on Senators will have eight minutes. If the issue holiday there every year. I have always said that if I could have a second place to live, it would be needs to be rolled over, depending on the number in Killarney. I will pass on the Senators’ views to of Senators offering, I have no difficulty with that. the Minister. I hope our worst fears are not We can review progress with 20 minutes or half realised. an hour to go in the debate. Senator Hanafin called on the Government Senator Buttimer called for debate on how we and the Minister to deal with the issue of stem celebrate St. Patrick’s Day. This is a worthwhile cell research. I will inquire about this and come proposal and perhaps we can discuss it during the back to him on the issue. The Senator also made tourism debate and make St. Patrick’s Day a cen- a serious statement regarding the great concerns tral issue for tourism. Enterprise Ireland, IDA of the farming community, market farmers in Ireland and all Ministers home in on that time of particular, about the low prices being received for year. With regard to promoting Ireland abroad, their produce from supermarkets. The former the festival comes at a good time of the year and Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Busi- we get enormous value for money from it. It ness carried out an in-depth investigation, lasting opens the doors in all our embassies and consul- almost two years, into the grocery order. The ates and everyone becomes involved in promot- committee expressed definite all-party views on ing Ireland at that time. The suggestion is a very that order and came to the conclusion the order worthwhile one and I will ensure the debate takes should have been retained. Our worst fears are place at the earliest possible time. now being realised. Senator Carty asked whether there was price fixing given the cost of veterinary drugs. I will Senator Paddy Burke: Hear, hear. The commit- pass on his views to the Minister. That issue could tee was right. The Minister got it wrong. be included with a debate on agriculture. Senator Norris called for one hour to be Senator Donie Cassidy: The committee heard allowed next week to debate No. 16, motion 35 the views of many groups, in particular the north on the Order Paper. I have no difficulty with the Dublin growers and the Meath growers who allocation of that time and it will be on the Order shared their experience. Now we see the huge of Business on one of the three days next week. decline in growers. A few hundred of the 700 or He also raised the issue of the Zambian Govern- so who were in business have gone out of busi- ment and donations from Ireland. He asked ness since then. Senator Hanafin pointed out that about the money trail, the intent behind the the farmers only get 20% of the price for which donations and how they were used. That is a diffi- their potatoes are selling in the supermarkets and cult issue. I will pass the Senator’s views on to the stores. This is an issue that should be revisited by 973 Control of Exports Bill 2007: 20 February 2008. Report and Final Stages 974 the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and morning. It is alarming that the data of 171,000 Employment. people might be in the hands of some thief. Per- Senator McFadden expressed serious concerns haps we could bring the matter to the Minister’s about the announcement by Arnotts during the attention when she is in the house next week to week. I understand 1,200 jobs will be provided in discuss the HSE and perhaps we will get an three years. A significant amount of update on the position then. 12 o’clock money, \1 billion, is being spent on the project. I remind the Senator that An Cathaoirleach: Senator Fitzgerald has 80% of businesses that were in O’Connell Street moved an amendment to the Order of Business: 30 years ago are no longer there as a result of the “That statements on the implications of the dead- changing face of Ireland. line of 1 March 2008 in the pharmacy dispute be Senator Mullen expressed his concern about taken today.” Is the amendment being pressed? the stolen data of the Irish Blood Transfusion Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Yes. Service and I will pass on his concerns to the Minister. I heard the programme on radio this Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Ta´, 21; Nı´l, 30

Ta´

Bacik, Ivana. Mullen, Ro´ na´n. Bradford, Paul. Norris, David. Burke, Paddy. O’Reilly, Joe. Buttimer, Jerry. Phelan, John Paul. Coffey, Paudie. Prendergast, Phil. Coghlan, Paul. Regan, Eugene. Cummins, Maurice. Ross, Shane. Doherty, Pearse. Ryan, Brendan. Donohoe, Paschal. Twomey, Liam. Fitzgerald, Frances. White, Alex. McFadden, Nicky.

Nı´l

Boyle, Dan. Leyden, Terry. Brady, Martin. MacSharry, Marc. Butler, Larry. McDonald, Lisa. ´ Callely, Ivor. O Domhnaill, Brian. ´ Cannon, Ciaran. O Murchu´ , Labhra´s. Carty, John. O’Brien, Francis. O’Donovan, Denis. Cassidy, Donie. O’Malley, Fiona. Corrigan, Maria. O’Sullivan, Ned. Daly, Mark. Ormonde, Ann. de Bu´ rca, De´irdre. Phelan, Kieran. Ellis, John. Quinn, Feargal. Feeney, Geraldine. Walsh, Jim. Glynn, Camillus. White, Mary M. Hanafin, John. Wilson, Diarmuid. Keaveney, Cecilia.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators and Paschal Donohoe; Nı´l, Senators De´irdre de Bu´ rca and .

Amendment declared lost. ments made by the Da´il. This is looked upon as the report of the Da´il amendments to the Seanad. Question, “That the Order of Business be For Senators’ convenience, I have arranged for agreed to”, put and declared carried. the printing and circulation of the amendments. The Minister of State will deal separately with the Control of Exports Bill 2007 [Seanad Bill subject matter of each related group of amend- amended by the Da´il]: Report and Final Stages. ments. I have also circulated the proposed group- ing in the House. A Senator may contribute once An Leas-Chathaoirleach: This is a Seanad Bill on each grouping. I remind Senators that the only which has been amended by the Da´il. In accord- matter that may be discussed is the amendments ance with Standing Order 103, it is deemed to made by the Da´il. have passed its First, Second and Third Stages in the Seanad and is placed on the Order Paper for Report Stage. On the question, “That the Bill be Question proposed: “That the Bill be received received for final consideration”, the Minister of for final consideration.” State may explain the purpose of the amend- 975 Control of Exports Bill 2007: 20 February 2008. Report and Final Stages 976

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I call on the Minister ant as it should be, particularly in respect of the of State to speak on the subject matter of group brokering provision in section 3? 1 on definitions. Deputy John McGuinness: The scope of brok- Minister of State at the Department of ering controls is addressed by amendment No. 4. Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy In the context of EU—— John McGuinness): The definition of “transfer by electronic means”, by reference to Council Regu- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: We will deal with lation (EC) No. 1334/2000, has been deleted that matter in the next group. Group 4 concerns because it was considered that this is a term com- the scope of brokering controls, which is the sub- monly in use that does not require a specific ject matter of amendment No. 4. definition. Given the fast pace of technological developments, it was also believed that to restrict Deputy John McGuinness: The House will the scope of the definition to what is understood recall that Senator Quinn tabled an amendment currently to comprise electronic transmission on Committee Stage last year that sought to might exclude new methods that may emerge extend the scope of extra-territorial brokering during the lifetime of this legislation. controls beyond Irish citizens and companies to include non-Irish nationals resident in the coun- Senator : I have no difficulty try. At the time, the Government undertook to with the amendment as explained by the Minister obtain legal advice on the proposal and, should it of State. prove favourable, to introduce a corresponding amendment when the Bill reached the Da´il. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Group 2 concerns The section was subjected to the closest scru- orders and regulations, the subject matter of tiny by my Department and the Attorney amendment No. 2. General’s office to determine whether there was a way in which to move forward on the proposal. Deputy John McGuinness: Since the Bill was As indicated in last year’s debate in the House, initiated in the House, the European Communi- there were serious concerns in respect of the lack ties Act has been enabled to permit relevant of a single definition of a resident under Irish law. domestic legislation to be used to give effect to This contrasted with the situation in other coun- European Acts. As a result, it is not necessary to tries, for example, where there is a civil regis- make a specific provision to that effect in this Bill. tration requirement for all residents. There was The amendment provided for the corresponding also a question on the extent to which the State deletions from the section. can attempt to impose extra-territorial controls. The possibility was raised that the inclusion of An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Group 3 concerns the purposes of the Act, the subject matter of amend- such a provision in the legislation could create the ments Nos. 3, 5 and 6. basis for a legal challenge to the Act. For example, this course of action could be taken by Deputy John McGuinness: These Government parties to whom we might wish to apply controls. amendments were made in response to an Regrettably, I concluded that, while desirable interesting proposal from the Labour Party to from a policy viewpoint, the legal considerations insert a new principles and policies section in the were such that this worthy amendment might Bill to set out the general principles and policies create more problems than it would solve. For with particular regard to the EU and other inter- this reason, the Government could not accept it. national organisations and any other general The scrutiny had an impact in that it resulted Government policies. The legal advice I obtained in the identification by the Attorney General of from the Attorney General’s office did not sup- a potential problem with the section as drafted. port the inclusion of the new section. However, He pointed out correctly that the extra-territorial taking on board the intent of the proposal, the brokering controls should only be exercised out- text, “having regard to the purposes of this Act”, side the EU, as each member state had a similar has been added to sections 3, 4 and 5. The objec- obligation to control brokering activities within tive was to establish beyond doubt the linkage their jurisdictions. Were Ireland to have the capa- between our EU and international commitments city to control brokering activities in another EU and the reasons for making orders and regu- member state, we might somehow be implying lations under these sections. that we do not trust our partners to comply with their obligations. For this reason, the Govern- Senator Alex White: I appreciate the Minister ment tabled the amendment which excludes from of State’s comments and the advice he has Irish control brokering activities carried out in received. The rationale for our proposal has been another EU member state. It also provides that taken account of, which I welcome. brokering activities undertaken outside the State on foot of an authorisation by another EU Senator John Carty: Has the Minister of State member state would be outside the scope of received assurances from the EU that it is as vigil- Irish control. 977 Control of Exports Bill 2007: 20 February 2008. Report and Final Stages 978

Senator Carty raised a question on other brok- to the Oireachtas on the operation of the Act ering issues. There are regulations on this matter would be in respect of 2008. I assure Senators that and Common Position 2003/468 has been adopted this is not to be regarded as an attempt to delay in this regard by the EU. This common position the provision of information on our strategic is applied and deals with the question raised by exports but is merely a technical issue. Until this the Senator. Bill is enacted I do not have a legal basis on which to submit an annual report to the Oireachtas. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Group 5 relates to minor redrafting amendments, the subject matter Senator John Carty: Will the Minister of State of amendments Nos. 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, and 14. give a commitment that the annual report will be taken seriously, rather than left on a shelf gather- Deputy John McGuinness: These are all minor ing dust? redrafting amendments made on foot of recom- mendations from the Office of the Attorney Senator : I accept the Minister of General. They do not impact on the intent or State’s explanation for the need for this amend- scope of the legislation. ment as the Bill has taken some time to go through both Houses of the Oireachtas and the An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Group 6 relates to elections to both Houses was part of that process. licensing regulations, the subject matter of I welcome the fact that an annual report is part amendment No. 10. of the procedures of this Bill and, along with Senator Carty, I feel it is important that the Deputy John McGuinness: The Government reporting mechanism for such a Bill should be to added a new subsection to the section on export have it debated, where possible, preferably in this licences to provide for the introduction of House, where there might be more latitude to internal compliance procedures for exporters of examine its provisions and comment critically on controlled goods. This was in response to calls how the report can be improved in subsequent from various commentators seeking, for example, years. greater post-shipment controls and will allow me to incorporate such provisions in the regulations Senator John Paul Phelan: I echo the senti- to be made under this section. The implemen- ments of Senator Boyle. This Bill came about tation of the appropriate internal compliance pro- largely due to reports over a year ago on the cedures will encourage responsible behaviour by involvement of Irish businesses in the global arms exporters at all stages of the exporting process, trade. I accept the amendment as stated by the from the initial contact with potential customers Minister of State but I agree with Senator Boyle to post-shipment control. that we could usefully have a more regular dis- Senator Dan Boyle: I welcome the inclusion of cussion of these issues when the annual report is this amendment, its passage in Da´il E´ ireann and produced in the Seanad. The report could be dis- it being reported to Seanad E´ ireann. This amend- cussed at the Joint Committee on Enterprise and ment was recommended by the and Small Business in addition to the two Houses. I am glad that the Minister has seen fit to include Perhaps the Minister of State has some ideas for it in the Bill. It is important that we have internal a direction in this regard. compliance procedures for licence holders and it is important that those procedures be mandatory. Senator Alex White: I agree with the senti- It is also important that licences include a level ments expressed by my colleagues in respect of of post-export examination as regards the desti- the importance of an annual report and the con- nation of the goods and technology as this will tinuing scrutiny of the issues addressed in this help ensure they are not used for military pur- legislation. I appreciate there has been some poses and that they are not a factor in human delay and I understand the Minister of State’s rights abuses abroad. This amendment represents comments on where the matter stands at the an improvement to the Bill and for that reason moment but the availability of an annual report should be welcomed by the House in the manner and the opportunity for the House to discuss and it has been welcomed by those who campaigned scrutinise developments is very important and for the inclusion of such an aspect to the Bill. consistent with the democratic process that led to the passing of this legislation. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Group 7 relates to the annual report, the subject matter of amend- Deputy John McGuinness: In the course of ment No. 10. introducing this Bill and ensuring that everyone was consulted on it I went out of my way to Deputy John McGuinness: The Control of involve Members. In the course of the various Exports Bill was initiated in this House in Stages in this House and the Da´il I discussed February 2007 and, despite our best efforts, it was matters with them and assured them we could not possible to have it enacted before the end of debate the annual report either in the Seanad or that year. It was necessary, therefore, to amend at the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small this section to provide that the first annual report Business. I believe legislation in this hugely 979 Control of Exports Bill 2007: 20 February 2008. Report and Final Stages 980

[Deputy John McGuinness.] mend the Minister of State on shepherding it important area will always be a work in progress through as he did. and I have every intention of ensuring that the consultation process continues. I hope the Seanad Senator Dan Boyle: I too will welcome the final or the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small passage of this Bill into enactment when it is Business uses the opportunity each year to debate signed by Uachtara´nnahE´ ireann as it represents the annual report because through such a debate an important development in legislation in this we could find ways of improving the report and area. This applies particularly to the area of addressing issues that arise from this legislation licensing and the introduction of a series of con- or the report. I again assure Members of this trols on an industry that few members of the House that I will continue this process and work public in Ireland wish to see develop. On those with them to ensure we have an opportunity to grounds, the legislation should help prevent the discuss the annual report. unnecessary development of such an industry. Nevertheless, it is only part of a policy Question put and agreed to. approach aimed at ensuring the arms industry does not develop a strong base here. We need to Question proposed: “That the Bill do now consider introducing legislation or ethical invest- pass”. ment guidelines to govern the use of State moneys, specifically the National Pensions Senator John Paul Phelan: I thank the Minister Reserve Fund. We need to ensure the State does of State and Report and Final Stages have been not unwittingly encourage the development of quick in the Seanad today. This is significant the arms industry, either domestically or inter- legislation and Fine Gael has supported its pass- nationally. the legislation will be a cornerstone age through both Houses of the Oireachtas. for our enterprise policies for international trade However, Ireland can take another route in and I wish the Minister of State every success in monitoring the international arms trade. A sig- implementing it. nificant number of dual-use products produced in this country are used in some way, shape or form Senator John Carty: I compliment and con- in the global arms trade but in the overall context gratulate the Minister of State on introducing the it does not represent even a drop in the ocean. Bill. As Senator Boyle noted, it is important to Ireland, the Minister and the Government have have proper structures in place to regulate the roles to play, in terms of international relations, export of arms. What are the Minister of State’s through the diplomatic service and the Depart- intentions regarding secondary legislation? ment of Foreign Affairs, in ensuring the develop- ment of a more scrutinised international arms Minister of State at the Department of trade. This goes beyond the bounds of this legis- Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy lation but it is an area in which Ireland could have John McGuinness): I thank Senators for partici- a greater impact on this trade. pating in the debate. The annual report will I welcome the passage of the Bill through the afford us an opportunity to monitor events at House and believe it is a significant step in the home, abroad and in world markets and to right direction. respond accordingly. I will consult the parties on secondary legislation, as I did when introducing Senator Alex White: I also welcome the pass- the legislation. I may also consult the Oireachtas age of this legislation and the commitment the committee and will inform the parties and com- Minister of State has shown to consultation with mittee of my intentions and listen to suggestions members of the Opposition in both Houses. This they may have. I hope to return to the committee is important legislation and, as Senator Phelan to deal with secondary legislation at an appro- said, the fact that Ireland is a small country and priate time, perhaps before the end of the year. some people view our involvement in this trade A conference on an arms trade treaty and cluster as merely a drop in the ocean does not detract munitions will be held in 2008 and the Govern- from the vital importance of the controls con- ment will support any activity in this area which tained in this Bill. Huge ethical and moral issues will result in clarity, transparency and so forth. are associated with this debate and they have I thank all those who contributed to the debate been aired here and in the other House. and note the work done by my predecessor in this Notwithstanding the fact that not all of the portfolio, the current Minister of State at the Opposition’s proposed amendments have been Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employ- accepted there has been a willingness to consider ment, Deputy Michael Ahern, who introduced them and some have found their way through in the Bill in the House 12 months ago. I am pleased some shape or form. There has been a vitally to have cut my ministerial teeth on this important important debate on this matter, which may have legislation. I assure Senators I will continue to been a little overdue as members of my party consult them in considering secondary legislation have called for such controls as these to be intro- and the annual report. duced for some years. That is in the past now as the legislation is in place. I welcome it and com- Question put and agreed to. 981 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 982

Northern Ireland Issues: Statements. Wright. Senators will have heard the Taoiseach call, once again, for an inquiry into the death of Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to be established, as recommended (Deputy Brian Lenihan): It is right that Members by Judge Cory. of the Seanad should have the chance to air their Judge Cory also recommended a public inquiry views on matters that go to the heart of events on into one of the two cases involving concerns this island over recent decades. The legacy of the about collusion in this jurisdiction, namely, the conflict in Northern Ireland is something which murder of RUC Chief Superintendent Harry will be with us for some time to come. The painful Breen and Superintendent Robert Buchanan in a memories of lives needlessly lost or ruined will Provisional IRA ambush in 1989. Whatever the continue to linger. The prospect of lasting peace merits of aspects of the British response to Judge which followed the Good Friday Agreement and Cory’s recommendations, I am pleased to note the restoration of the democratic institutions in the response in this jurisdiction was to accept the Northern Ireland should raise in all of us the need for an inquiry into the murder of the two hope, indeed the expectation, that no new victims RUC officers. A tribunal of inquiry established will be created. into the murders is proceeding under the chair- It is especially important for those individuals manship of Judge Peter Smithwick, the retired and their families directly affected by the atroci- President of the District Court. Having been in ties examined by Mr. Justice Barron that this an investigative mode for some time now, I House should have the opportunity to have its understand the tribunal will commence public voice heard on the reports from the Joint Com- hearings during the course of this year. I consider mittee on Justice, Equality, Defence and that the establishment of this tribunal — the most Women’s Rights. It is also important to reflect on extensive form of statutory inquiry available — the legacy of 30 years of conflict. As the demonstrates that the Government will not flinch Taoiseach stated during statements in the Da´il, from shining a light into potentially murky cor- this process is not only about the past, it is about ners of our past, as and when merited. the future also. I am sure Senators will join me in paying trib- The positive political developments in ute to Mr. Justice Henry Barron and his prede- Northern Ireland in recent years, especially the cessor, the late Mr. Justice Liam Hamilton, for restoration last year of the devolved institutions, their services as head of the independent com- have given us a glimpse of what can be achieved. mission of inquiry. That commission produced However, to move forward into that better future four substantial reports into a range of terrorist we need to examine and seek to understand, atrocities perpetrated against citizens and individ- while in no way seeking to minimise or explain uals in this State. In preparing these reports, it away, the violence which occurred on this island goes without saying that the Barron inquiry over the past several decades. Statements in this received the full co-operation of all relevant House today, taken together with those in the Departments and the Garda Sı´ocha´na in its inves- Da´il last month, are part of that continuing tigations. The Barron reports and the correspond- process. ing reports of the Oireachtas sub-committees Senators will know that the Good Friday which examined them privately and in public Agreement acknowledged the need to address hearings are now a matter of public record. I will the suffering of victims and recognised their right not, therefore, reiterate their findings and recom- to remember that suffering. There can be no hier- mendations here. I would, however, like to make archy when it comes to the pain felt by those some specific points in relation to the reports. deprived of a loved one as a result of this conflict. In the case of the random, brutal and senseless No one group has a monopoly on grief. There is, sectarian murder of Seamus Ludlow in 1976, in however, a particular sense of injustice felt by accordance with the recommendations of the sub- those who have been robbed of that loved one committee, the Garda Sı´ocha´na continues to be following the wilful collusion of those charged actively engaged in a re-examination of the case, with protecting them. in co-operation with the Police Service of One of the first significant attempts to address Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland His- our shared legacy in the context of claims of col- torical Enquiries Team. As Minister for Justice, lusion arose from the Weston Park agreement of Equality and Law Reform, I have met the 2001. Senators will recall that both the Irish and families of the victims of some of these murders British Governments committed themselves to to hear first hand their concerns and share with appointing a person of international standing to them developments in their cases. I am conscious examine six cases that have been the source of of the deep loss still felt by them, even after the concern about possible collusion by State security passage of so many years. Given the lapse of forces on either side of the Border. The resultant time, expectations should not be raised in an collusion inquiry process, led by retired Canadian unrealistic fashion about the potential outcome of Supreme Court judge, Peter Cory, recommended any Garda re-examinations, but I hope this dem- public inquiries into all four cases involving con- onstrates that the Barren reports are not gather- cerns about collusion in the murders of Rosemary ing dust on a shelf. The findings of these reports Nelson, Pat Finucane, Robert Hamill and Billy and the associated recommendations of the 983 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 984

[Deputy Brian Lenihan.] day for the victims of these attacks and for the Oireachtas sub-committee have been and are families of those lost and injured. For these being taken on board. people, the attacks are a present, not a past, Senators will recall that the reports made criti- reality, and I wholeheartedly acknowledge this. cisms of various State agencies, including Depart- As I previously mentioned, in meeting with a ments — my own included — and the Garda number of these relatives I have seen it for Sı´ocha´na. Sometimes these criticisms were severe myself. and stinging, and rightly so. On occasion, more I do not intend to refer in detail to one of the could and should have been done in response to worst atrocities of , namely the the attacks themselves and in support of the vic- Omagh bomb. Allegations of Garda failings were tims and their families. We have learned those made about the period leading up to the bomb- lessons, and the State and the Garda Sı´ocha´na are ing. These allegations were rejected by the Nally in a better position to respond to incidents. It may report, an edited version of which was published be little comfort to those bereaved by past events, by my predecessor. but Ireland now boasts best practices in many of Senators are no doubt aware of the civil action the areas where deficiencies were identified. Most being pursued by families of some of the victims of all, successive Governments have worked hard of Omagh. I understand that in recent days, the to ensure that the cycle of violence in Northern judge in this action has indicated his intention to Ireland is broken, so that we never again need issue a letter of request setting out the nature of find ourselves in the position of looking back on the assistance being sought from the appropriate the dead and wounded of decades past. Irish authorities. All possible support, within the I wish to turn to the single biggest atrocity of legal framework in which we must operate, will the Troubles, and the focus of the first Barren be forthcoming. Senators should also bear in report, namely, the Dublin and Monaghan bom- mind that criminal proceedings with regard to bings of 1974, which claimed the lives of 33 per- one individual’s alleged involvement in this sons. The Oireachtas sub-committee examination bombing continue in this jurisdiction. of this report identified a number of matters with The State has endeavoured and continues to regard to the resulting Garda investigation, as endeavour to assist victims of the Troubles. In well as other issues requiring clarification. In some cases, the simple acknowledgement of their response, the Taoiseach established a commission loss can provide comfort to victims and their of investigation, the first time such a form of families. Financial and other support is also statutory inquiry was established under the 2004 necessary and the Government has taken steps to legislation, to examine these matters and report provide this. Arising from the recommendations on them. of the report of the Victim’s Commission, the In respect of the Garda investigation into the Government approved in 2003 the establishment bombings in 1974, the commission’s final report, of the Remembrance Commission with an associ- published in March 2007, concluded that appro- ated remembrance fund of up to \9 million. priate decisions were taken by experienced The Remembrance Commission was charged Garda officers at the time. Moreover, the sugges- with the responsibility of administering the tion that the Garda investigation was wound scheme of acknowledgement, remembrance and down because of alleged collusion was rejected. assistance for victims in this jurisdiction of the This finding, although obvious in my view, is Northern Ireland conflict, and I know it has nevertheless welcome. helped numerous families and individuals in I previously mentioned it is correct and proper recent years. The commission has made payments that deficiencies in the State’s response to the to the families of persons killed as acknowledge- handling of these terrorist attacks are recognised ment for their loss; to spouses and children on the so that lessons can be learned for the future. basis of economic hardship; to persons unable to However, it is worth making the point that where work due to incapacity; to persons displaced from the perpetrators of the attacks have not been Northern Ireland due to the conflict; and for made amenable for their crimes, it would be medical bills. It has also funded memorials to wrong that the focus of blame and criticism remember the victims whose precious lives were should be turned on those individuals and agen- lost during this period, including most recently cies who sought to defend life and property, in memorials commemorating the Belturbet bomb- difficult circumstances and during troubled times. ing and the Miami Showband attack. In this regard, as Minister for Justice, Equality Although the Remembrance Commission was and Law Reform, it is right that I place on the due to wind up in 2006, the Government record of this House, on behalf of successive extended its duration to October 2008 to ensure Governments, our appreciation of how members that all eligible persons have the opportunity to of An Garda Sı´ocha´na through the years stood benefit from the scheme. As of the end of 2007, by this State against the threats it faced, some- approximately \6.2 million has been provided times at great personal cost. and more than 420 applications have been made Having said all this, while the terrorist attacks to the Northern Ireland Memorial Fund. might be decades old, the legacy of hurt and pain, Some families of victims also have the added both physical and emotional, continues to this injustice of not having been afforded the dignity 985 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 986 of being able to bury their loved ones. I cannot the past number of years, has been absolutely think of anything more likely to prolong grieving necessary. It may be a painful and difficult pro- than not being able to bury the remains of a cess, particularly for the victims and their family member. As a further practical measure to families, but we owe it to them to do so with support the families of victims, in 1999 the two honesty and conviction. Governments established the independent com- The results of our investigations and inquiries mission for the location of victims’ remains. Its is can only ever constitute an element of the full to receive information from paramilitary organis- picture of those events in the 1970s. To complete ations which could lead to the discovery of the this picture, all Members of both Houses recog- remains of victims in those few cases where nise that we need the unambiguous co-operation remains have never been recovered. of the British Government. This is particularly In 1999 and 2000, on the basis of information the case in instances where real grounds for con- supplied to the commission by the Provisional cern about collusion by members of the security IRA and following extensive excavation work forces in Northern Ireland have been clearly carried out by the Garda Sı´ocha´na, three bodies identified. were recovered and returned to their families for I wish to echo the Taoiseach’s words that the burial. A fourth, that of Ms Jean McConville, was suffering inflicted during the Troubles was discovered by accident soon afterwards. Sub- endured by people from all backgrounds and tra- sequently, in August 2006, the two Governments ditions. The families of those who died know agreed that in the absence of any further break- better than anyone that pain and despair do not throughs on the basis of information received, the distinguish on the basis of political conviction or commission should adopt a more proactive religion or any other aspect of an individual approach to its mandate. This has included con- human being. Wrongs were perpetrated through- tracting the services of a forensic specialist and out Ireland. carrying out full, non-invasive surveys of all sus- In seeking to progress politically we must con- pected gravesites. front frankly and honestly our shared past, and Mindful of the heartache experienced on hold uppermost in our thoughts the ever-present occasions when the families’ hopes have been pain of all the victims of this conflict. In remem- raised and then dashed, the commission’s policy, bering their pain we should be fortified in our supported by the Government, is that physical determination that the people of this island excavation of possible gravesites is now only should never suffer in this way again. The past undertaken if and where the commission assesses year has seen enormous progress made towards a good prospect exists of successful recovery of remains. The commission maintains extremely this goal. Acknowledging and dealing with the close liaison with members of the families of past is and must remain a part of this progress. I these victims to ensure that their expectations are hope today’s proceedings in this House will not unduly raised. The work of the commission further contribute to it. continues to enjoy the full support of both Governments. Senator Maurice Cummins: This debate is long All the matters I have touched upon today overdue. The sub-committee on the Barron relate to various facets of how to come to terms report had wished for an early debate after the with a past which is, in many cases, still raw and presentation of its findings. I am glad we now for many acutely painful. This is not a simple have the opportunity to debate the reports in question. The very fact we are bringing these the House. matters into the open and discussing them is in I am disappointed that, like in the other House, some small way a part of the healing process. the leaders have not agreed on an all-party In his remarks to the Da´il, the Taoiseach wel- motion to deal specifically with the items con- comed the establishment in Northern Ireland of tained in the Barron report. As it had not hap- the consultative group on dealing with the past, pened in the Lower House, I would have thought co-chaired by Denis Bradley and Archbishop the Leaders would have rectified that in the Robin Eames, whom he met in November. The Seanad. Senator Walsh stated to me coming into group has been charged with seeking views from the Chamber that he has a motion to propose. I across the community in Northern Ireland on the do not believe that is the way of doing business. best way to deal with the legacy of the past. This As there is all-party agreement on the reports, is a difficult undertaking, but a necessary one, and there should be an all-party motion to follow up one to which we await the outcome with interest. on the findings of them and the investigations of As the Taoiseach stated, the group will no doubt the sub-committee. learn much from the work that has been under- The Barron report dealt with the Dublin bom- taken by Judge Barron, by the Oireachtas sub- bings of 1972 and 1973, the Dublin and committee and by victims’ groups in this Monaghan bombings of 1974, the murder of jurisdiction. Seamus Ludlow in 1976 and the bombing of Kay’s I will conclude by reiterating the Government’s Tavern in Dundalk. I was a member of the view that the exercise of looking back critically Oireachtas sub-committee of the justice commit- on past events, in which we have engaged in over tee that conducted public hearings and compiled 987 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 988

[Senator Maurice Cummins.] continue to witness the mafia-style omerta in the fourth and final report on Mr. Justice operation in some areas of Northern Ireland. Barron’s investigations. Unless some good people come forward, evil will It was a humbling and moving experience to continue to triumph and families in 2008 will find hear the testimony of decent, honest people themselves in a similar position as the families we whose relatives were murdered in the most hor- have spoken about earlier some 30 years on. rific and violent circumstances. Yet, after more We have also seen the re-emergence of the than 30 years, the perpetrators have not been Real and the Continuity IRA which pose a threat brought to justice and the British authorities con- to the people and institutions of this State and tinue to be found wanting in providing infor- this island and aim to undermine the position of mation which could bring much-needed justice Sinn Fe´in. It is believed they are responsible for and closure for the relatives of the bereaved. The the recent murder of a young man, Andrew sense of loss, pain, suffering and grieving was felt Burns, in Donegal. I urge the Minister to use by each member of the sub-committee. We felt every means at the State’s disposal to crush these honour-bound to ensure our conclusions were evil people whose only aim is to sow seeds of clear and unambiguous based on the evidence hatred and bigotry in this island and destroy the which we received. relative peace we enjoy. There is no doubt there was collusion between It would be remiss of me if I did not pay tribute the British security forces and loyalist terrorists to the groups and organisations, especially Justice mainly based in the Glenane area in County for the Forgotten. Their members have displayed Armagh. The then British Government at the personal commitment and dedication in their highest level was aware of the presence of this efforts to find justice and closure for many loyalist gang and the atrocities it committed. It families affected by the atrocities covered by Mr. failed to take the necessary action to protect the Justice Barron in his report. citizens of Northern Ireland. I hope the Taoiseach will instruct his officials It is necessary to put on the record some of the to renew contact with officials on the British side conclusions of the sub-committee. They state: and influence the British Prime Minister to release files that may bring justice and closure for The sub-committee is left in no doubt that the families. All we want is closure to these collusion between the British security forces events. If the Minister had listened to the testi- and terrorists was behind many, if not all, of mony given by many of those affected to the sub- the atrocities that are considered in this report. committee, he would see how much it means to We are horrified that persons who were them that justice be done for their relatives who employed by the British Administration to pre- were butchered in horrific ways during that sad serve peace and to protect people were period in our country’s history. Let us hope these engaged in the creation of violence and butch- people will get justice and closure for their ering of innocent victims. families. The sub-committee believes that, unless the full truth about collusion is established and Senator Jim Walsh: The sub-committee’s first those involved either admit or are fixed with report dealt with the 17 May 1974, when bombs responsibility, then there cannot be closure for went off in the centre of Dublin city at 5.30 p.m. the families. The victims included Patrick Askin, 44 years of Nothing could be clearer. age; Josie Bradley, 21; Marie Butler, 21; Anne I welcome the establishment of the Historical Byrne, 35; Thomas Campbell, 52; Simone Chetrit, Inquiries Team to investigate many of these 30, a French citizen; Thomas Croarkin, 36; John atrocities but without the full co-operation of its Dargle, 80; Concepta Dempsey, 65; Collette political masters, I am not convinced it can bring Doherty, 21, who ran a shop in Sheriff Street with closure for the grieving families. It was incredu- her husband John, was nine months pregnant at lous to hear that after 35 years a visit from the the time but her daughter, Wendy, who was with team was the first time that some eye-witnesses her survived the blast in Talbot Street; Patrick to these atrocities were interviewed by the secur- Fay, 47; Elizabeth Fitzgerald, 59; Breda Grace, ity forces. 35, recovering from the ‘flu had been encouraged The Barron report deals specifically with by her husband Tim to get a respite, parked her events which highlighted many vicious attacks on car on Talbot Street and was killed on the way the Catholic community along the Border. back to it; Archie Harper, 73; Antonio Magliocco, However, we must also remember the equally 37, Italian citizen; May McKenna, 55; Anne vicious attacks on members of the Protestant Marren, 20; Anna Massey, 21; Dorothy Morris, community in the same area. The families of 57; the O’Brien family, John and Anna O’Brien, those who died are the ones who still suffer the 24 and 22, respectively, and their daughters pain and despair so many years after these hor- Jacqueline, 17 months, and Anne-Marie, five rendous events. months, who lived in Gardiner Street and were More recently there have been the savage mur- originally from Finglas. John worked in the Palm ders by members of the IRA of Robert Grove ice-pop factory, and the entire family was McCartney, Paul Quinn and Joseph Rafferty. We wiped out in the Parnell Street explosion; Chris- 989 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 990 tina O’Loughlin, 51; Edward John O’Neill, 39, Governments and should be based upon the and baby Martha O’Neill, who was stillborn; terms agreed at Weston Park, in particular Marie Phelan, 20; Siobha´n Roice, 19, who was paragraph No. 19. from Thomas Street in Wexford and, like many Finally, the recommendations state, “The Sub- young people, was dreaming of what future years Committee recommends that a resolution of both would bring. She was in the prime of life and had Houses of the Oireachtas be passed endorsing everything to look forward to, but her life was this Report and its recommendations, and would cruelly snuffed out in the explosion; Maureen invite the UK Parliament in Westminster to pass Shields, 46; Jack Travers, 28; Breda Turner, 21; a similar resolution.” This report is dated March John Walshe, 27; Peggy White, 45; and George 2004. It is a serious indictment of these Houses Williamson, 72. This is just a list of those killed that four years later, no such resolution has been in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. put before the Houses, passed or endorsed. While The sadness and sense of loss felt by the vic- the individual reports have been debated pre- tims’ relatives were very much in evidence when viously, this is the first overall debate on these they appeared before the committee, and were as issues. I hope this omission on the part of the raw and as hurtful as they had been some 34 years Houses will be corrected in the not-too-distant ago. This was compounded by the criminal inves- future. tigation, which left a lot to be desired and was The second report of the sub-committee dealt closed down after four months. They were then with the Dublin bombings of December 1972 and neglected and forgotten by successive Govern- January 1973, the bombings in Belturbet in ments, and it can truly be said this State failed December 1972, and the murders of Brı´d Carr, them. They were only sustained in their anguish 26, on the Lifford-Strabane road in November by the NGOs, particularly Justice for the Forgot- 1971 and of Oliver Boyce, 25, and Brı´d Porter, ten, which campaigned and worked tirelessly to 21, in Burnfoot in January 1973. The victims of keep the issue to the forefront and researched these atrocities also included George Bradshaw, and gathered much useful data for which the 30; Tommy Duffy, 24; Tommy Douglas, 21; committee and the Barron inquiry were grateful. Geraldine O’Reilly, 15; and Patrick Stanley, 16. It is a pity the group was unaware of the debate The issue of collusion was very much in focus taking place today as I know they would have with regard to various aspects of these murders. wished to attend. The third report dealt with the murder of The first breakthrough for the families was Seamus Ludlow on 2 May 1976. In its findings, when they met the current Taoiseach in the late the committee recommended inter alia that a his- 1990s and he agreed to take a personal interest in toric inquiries team be established in this juris- the matter. In 2000 the Government established diction and that a commission of investigation be an independent commission of inquiry under Mr. established to examine certain outstanding ques- Justice Barron which investigated the Dublin and tions to do with the Ludlow case. Monaghan bombings. Among its recom- The fourth report dealt with nine atrocities: the mendations was the establishment of a com- bombing of Kay’s Tavern in Dundalk in mission of investigation to inquire into aspects of December 1975, the bombing in Castleblayney in the Garda investigation and document handling March 1976, the bombing of Dublin Airport in by the Department and the Garda. That com- November 1975, the attack at Donnelly’s Bar, Sil- mission was subsequently established under verbridge, in December 1975, the attack on the Patrick McEntee, who has reported to the Reavey family in January 1976, the attack on the Government that there are certain issues arising Step Inn, Keady, in August 1976, the attack on from this. the O’Dowd family in January 1976, the atrocity It is worthwhile to refer briefly to the recom- at the Rock Bar in County Armagh in June 1976, mendations made by the sub-committee and sub- and the attack on the Miami Showband on 31 sequently endorsed by the then Joint Oireachtas July 1975. Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and For the record, it is worth acknowledging the Women’s Rights. The sub-committee stated that victims of these atrocities: John Francis Hayes, “a Public Tribunal of Inquiry in Northern Ireland 38; Jack Rooney, 62; Hugh Watters, 60; Patrick and/or Great Britain is required and represents Mone, 56; Patrick Donnelly, 24; Michael Don- the best opportunity to be successful.” This is nelly, 14; Trevor Brecknell, 32; Betty McDonald, because the relevant documentation was in 38; Gerald McGleenan, 22; and John Martin, Northern Ireland and Great Britain and an Brian and Anthony Reavey. I recommend to inquiry in this State would not have had access to those who might not have followed the hearings this. The sub-committee also stated in its recom- closely that they read the evidence of Eugene mendations: Reavey, the brother of the latter three victims, at Before any Inquiry would proceed the Sub- the various hearings. They will then understand Committee is of the view that what is required the manner in which the families were treated, in the first instance, is an investigation based particularly by the British Army. That family upon the Weston Park proposals. The terms of lived very close to the Glenanne farm owned by reference should be agreed between the two James Mitchell, who was a reserve member of the 991 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements (Resumed) 992

[Senator Jim Walsh.] Visit of Indian Delegation. RUC. It was common knowledge that the RUC Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): On frequented the farm, and it was from that farm behalf of Senators, I welcome the Ambassador of that the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were India, Mr. P. S. Raghavan, and the Minister and planned. It is disgraceful that no action was ever Deputy Head of this mission, Mr. M.C. Naithani, taken with regard to the people involved. The list to the House. I wish them a fruitful and joyous of victims continues with Barry O’Dowd, 24; visit to our Parliament. Declan O’Dowd, 19; Joe O’Dowd, 61; Francis O’Toole, 29; Anthony Geraghty, 23; Brian McCoy, 33; and Francis O’Toole. The latter three Northern Ireland Issues: Statements were members of the Miami Showband who were (Resumed). slaughtered coming back from a dance in Senator Jim Walsh: Deputy Ardagh’s com- Northern Ireland. Anybody who has read the ments are worth noting because he would cer- book on this subject or heard the evidence will tainly have started with a view that perhaps there know that there was strong suspicion that the was no collusion involved in these various atroci- paramilitary unit that carried out the attack was ties. As the various hearings went on, he certainly controlled by a person with an English accent, in changed his mind in that regard. According to all probability a member of the British Army. Deputy Ardagh: With regard to the latest report, it is essential that we refer to the conclusions and recom- These security forces were not prepared to mendations of the committee. As we went along allow the files to be seen by Mr. Justice Barron, it became obvious to us that there which, in itself, indicated that there was some- 1 o’clock was significant collusion at various thing to hide. We found that members of the levels within the British establish- security forces in the North were engaged in ment, not just at police and British Army level these terrorist activities in the Republic. It is but higher. What happened could not have hap- inconceivable that the colleagues and superiors pened without either the tacit approval or the of these people were not aware that these men knowledge of persons in the Northern Ireland were involved. A blind eye was turned to many Office and in Whitehall itself. Evidence was of their activities. presented at the committee that former Prime Coming from the Chairman, who is impartial and Minister Harold Wilson, in documentation, gave was very objective in the manner in which he con- a briefing for the then leader of the Opposition, ducted these hearings and the subsequent reports, Margaret Thatcher, informing her of the situation that has tremendous significance and clearly illus- with regard to security forces in the North and trates the strong view of the sub-committee. the extent to which they had been infiltrated by The question arises as to where we go from paramilitaries. Thus, it was common knowledge here. These people have suffered for too long that this was happening. The sub-committee without getting some remedy or closure on their stated in its conclusions: hurt and sadness. I propose we come back to this The Sub-Committee is left in no doubt that House with an agreed motion. I propose that this ´ collusion between the British security forces motion be adopted by Seanad Eireann accepting, and terrorists was behind many if not all of the endorsing and improving the four reports of Mr. atrocities that are considered in this report. We Justice Barron and the Oireachtas Joint Commit- are horrified that persons who were employed tee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s by the British administration to preserve peace Rights, which are before the House. I propose ´ and to protect people were engaged in the that the Leader of Seanad Eireann formally creation of violence and the butchering of inno- inform the Speaker of the House of Lords of the cent victims. The Sub-Committee believes that passage of the resolution, forwarding copies of unless the full truth about collusion is estab- the reports and requesting the matter be con- lished and those involved either admit or are sidered by members of that house. I propose that fixed with responsibility then there cannot be the Seanad support the efforts of the Taoiseach closure for the families. in his talks with the British Prime Minister to have files and all relevant information and docu- I was going to read into the record the com- mentation made available to a Cory-type inquiry ments of the Taoiseach, who has been highly criti- which should be established. The inquiry could cal of the failure to get co-operation from the consist of an Irish Government nominee, a British British side on this, but will not do so because Government nominee and a judicial figure of they are already on record in the Da´il. I must international repute and stature. I propose that compliment the leader of the Opposition who was to advance the declared position of these Houses equally forceful in his comments on what needs and the findings of these reports, a special to be done. Deputy Joe Costello, who is a Oireachtas joint committee be established to member of the sub-committee, set out an assist in achieving an outcome to the involvement approach that should be taken from here. It is of collusion in these atrocities. In doing that, the also worth noting the comments of Deputy Sea´n proposal of an Oireachtas joint committee could Ardagh who is Chairman of the sub-committee. interact with the House of Commons. I hope the 993 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements (Resumed) 994

Da´il would endorse this proposal as well. A do everything in their power to ensure matters House of Commons and House of Lords commit- that ought to be exposed, be they in respect of tee could deal with this too. Other groups that State action or inaction or the action of para- could be involved include the British-Irish Inter- military groups that has occurred, are exposed parliamentary Body, the consultative group on and not confined to the past. That should occur the past which has been established in the North in circumstances where they should be the subject under the former Archbishop of Armagh, Robin of public debate or criticism of bodies, including Eames, and Denis Bradley, and the European Government. The overall spirit of the new politi- Parliament and Commission. cal dispensation has been very much in the con- I commend the Taoiseach on his efforts. He text of a human rights approach. raised this issue at the meeting in Manchester If there is one individual I would point out as with the British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, embodying that human rights approach to eval- and they have agreed that the matter will be pur- uating the past and moving to the future, it is sued by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Nuala O’Loan who was the Police Ombudsman Dermot Ahern, and the Secretary of State, in the North until recently. She took a human Shaun Woodward. rights approach to what needed to be done in To preserve and endorse our sovereignty, we respect of criticism of state actions and the police need, as a Parliament, to ensure these issues are and assisting all of society to move forward in a not allowed to be forgotten and to increase our spirit of co-operation and healing. efforts to bring closure to a group of people who It is not enough simply to talk about healing or have suffered for far too long. moving. Sometimes governments must take action to ensure that occurs. To that extent, I Senator Alex White: I also welcome that we agree with what Senators Cummins and Walsh are having this discussion and I welcome the have said, namely, that we need to do more to Minister’s contribution. However, what was just put in place a series of actions to follow on from said by Senator Walsh contrasts to some extent reports such as the Barron report to ensure we with what the Minister has been able to say in learn from the lessons of the past rather than sim- his contribution. While I could not disagree with ply talk about or debate them. anything the Minister said, it might be the con- There is no doubt the sub-committee to which sensus in this House or those of us who have Senator Walsh referred has made some valuable spoken so far that while the Minister has made suggestions. My colleague, Deputy Joe Costello, an important contribution, it does not go far as a member of the sub-committee, often criti- enough. I agree with Senator Walsh’s argument cised the failure to act in this area. He has made that we need to be far more robust and take on four reasonable proposals. Senator Walsh sug- this issue at least in the context of a motion or a gested a motion should be proposed. I agree with real and robust debate on an actual proposal for Senator Doherty and others who say there ought action to be taken by our Government and the to be a debate based on a proposal, but in the British Government rather than simply confining absence of that, what Deputy Costello has pro- ourselves to making statements in this House, posed, in respect of the final reports of the sub- important though this procedure is. committee, is that at a minimum the interim and As the Minister outlined in his speech, there final reports of the sub-committee, and the report has been a significant change in our country, of the Independent Commission of Inquiry into North and South, in the past ten years and even the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings, should be in the past year. New institutions are in place and formally received and endorsed by both Houses there is a new level and spirit of real political co- of the Oireachtas. operation between North and South. A new pol- Deputy Costello also proposed in the other itical dispensation is in place which I strongly wel- House that the Ceann Comhairle be called on — come, support and wish to promote in any way the Cathaoirleach of this House should be also possible. called on — to inform the Speaker of the House The Minister also said that we cannot turn our of Commons of the passage of a resolution in backs on the past, an argument with which I con- these Houses and to send copies of the relevant cur. We cannot say that atrocities, collusion and reports and other documents with a request that dreadful events that occurred can simply be left the matter be considered by members of that there. Closure is a word that is often used. This House. If there is to be a spirit of co-operation word is problematic because people whose loved between political parties and parliaments, the ones have been injured and killed and who have Houses of the Oireachtas should inform the been affected by atrocities, be they large public House of Commons and the other parliaments in ones or ones that are not so well known, never the United Kingdom of what we have decided really have closure. When we use that word, it and invite them to debate it. covers a multitude of things because people Senator Walsh referred to the efforts of the affected in that way never have the sort of closure Taoiseach. These Houses should call on the we might like them to have. Taoiseach to renew his efforts to secure the At the same time, public bodies and insti- agreement of the British Government on the tutions such as Parliament and Government must courses of action recommended by the sub-com- 995 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements (Resumed) 996

[Senator Alex White.] ers and so on regarding that atrocity in the heart mittee. The Taoiseach should be invited to report of the city of Dublin be produced by the Irish to the Da´il and the Seanad on a regular basis on Government. It is much more difficult for us to what he has managed to achieve in that regard. I demand, as we rightly do, of the British Govern- do not doubt the Taoiseach’s good faith in respect ment to co-operate and produce documentation of this issue but it is frustrating to witness his frus- if there is any doubt about our willingness to tration on the issue and to see him on television produce all of the documentation, State papers and elsewhere appear to throw his hands in the and otherwise on that terrible event in the 1970s air saying he has done everything he can do and to that family. I ask the Minister of State, Deputy we can establish no more from the British. It is Devins, to do so today or perhaps the Minister not enough for us to wash our hands of the issue. could come back to the House and indicate The pressure must be maintained. The Irish whether that has been done and, if not, when that Government should render it a major inter- family can expect it will be done. national imperative that the British Government should respond much more satisfactorily to the Senator Dan Boyle: Last weekend I had the demand that it produce information it undoubt- pleasure of visiting Belfast on the occasion of the edly has, whether it is recorded by the spooks and annual conference of the Green Party in others in MI5 or MI6 or in Government papers. Northern Ireland. The Green Party in Northern Wherever the records are they should be pro- Ireland is a regional council of the Green Party duced and we should continue to maintain press- on this island. We are one of only two political ure on the British Government to do that. parties that operate on an all-island basis. Not These Houses should call on the British only are we represented in both Houses of the Government, as a sign of its good faith in dealing Oireachtas but we are also represented in the with the legacy of conflict, to provide access to all legislative Assembly in the North. of the original documents relating to the atroci- The visit was an opportunity for me to get a ties that occurred in this jurisdiction, and in part- feel for life in Northern Ireland and express a icular the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in note of regret that it was one of all too infrequent 1974 in which 32 Irish citizens, a French and an visits I make to that part of this island. I felt the Italian citizen were killed. That documentation post-conflict Belfast is more comfortable with should be produced. There is no legitimate itself and a place where the normalisation pro- excuse for it not to be and pressure should be cess, while not complete, is ongoing and has also maintained, at an international level if necessary, assisted to define a sense of confidence that has for that to occur. If we are not successful at that been lacking in the past because of the nature of level, the Irish Government should give serious the conflict which, while we refer to it as occur- consideration to instituting proceedings in the ring on that side of the island, also spilled over European Court of Human Rights to force the into sections of this part of the island. We must British Government to co-operate in that regard. acknowledge that when addressing the issue of The Irish Government took the British Govern- collusion and the various committees that have ment to the European Court of Human Rights in attempted to make sense of the issue and bring the past in the course of the early stages of the finality to it. Troubles. Now that the Troubles are behind us it I arrived in Belfast on Friday to visit my col- is vital that the British Government be pressur- leagues in Stormont. It was my first visit to the ised in every way possible, if necessary through facility and I found it to be an impressive build- international litigation against it, to ensure it ing. I visited both Chambers of what had been produces the documentation and gives the sup- the Parliament of Northern Ireland. While I was port and co-operation that any democratic young when Stormont was first discontinued in government ought to be willing to do. 1972 I must profess to an ignorance of the Like Senator Walsh and every other Member Northern Ireland Senate. While most people of this House, I grew up during the Troubles and would be aware that one of the effects of the con- reports of a body in the ditch on the nine o’clock flict in Northern Ireland was the murder while in news every night, week in, week out. It is a huge office of a Member of this House, Senator Billy advance to have moved away from that, if a civi- Fox, I was not aware of similar murders of two lised society can say such a move is an advance. I members of the Northern Ireland Senate, was in school at the time of bombings in Dublin Senators Jack Barnwell and Paddy Wilson, which in 1974. are acknowledged by way of a plaque. That was I ask the Minister to consider another issue to part of the catalogue of horrific events with which do with our Government’s willingness to shine a we have had to live on this island for the past light on dark areas of the Troubles, namely, the decades which I hope the processes and pro- killing in the early 1970s of Garda Richard Fallon cedures that followed the Good Friday Agree- in this city. I am a very close friend of members of ment are starting to put to rights. One of the Garda Fallon’s family and they make a legitimate overhanging issues is the lack of finality, the lack request of the Government that full and clear of information that those who suffered tragic confirmation be given to them that all of the events such as senseless killings have had to available information, documentation, State pap- endure. Collusion is a large shadow over that. 997 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements (Resumed) 998

Earlier contributions have acknowledged that Ar dtu´ sba´ire, ba cho´ ir du´ inn a aithniu´ go bhfu- collusion was a two sided street. This State and ilimid ag caint faoi eachtraı´ inar chaill daoine a agencies representing the State must answer saoil. Ta´ teaghlaigh agus cairde na daoine u´ dag questions and provide information. If the ongoing gortu´ go fo´ ill. Nı´lanfı´rinne mar gheall ar na debate on collusion reveals this information, it eachtraı´ sin faighte acu fo´ s. Caithfimid aird a will assist the process. After the Barron report, thabhairt ar sin. Bhı´ an ceart ag an Seanado´ ir which concentrated on a number of events, the Walsh liosta na ndaoine a chaill a saoil de bharr report of the Oireachtas sub-committee and the na n-eachtraı´ seoale´amh amach. Nı´ amha´in go MacEntee report we must decide on the mechan- raibh sta´tfo´ rsaı´ na Breataine impleachtaithe go ism needed to bring finality to these issues. hindı´reach i du´ nmharu´ na ndaoine sin, ach gur In South Africa the truth commission was the mharaigh siad daoine go dı´reach sa Sta´it seo. mechanism used. Victims’ rights groups on this Maraı´odh Aidan McAnespie, mar shampla, 20 island have advocated this as a possible mechan- bliain ama´rach nuair a scaoil Arm na Breataine e´ ism to be considered. I personally support it but agus e´ ar thalamh na Fiche-Se´ Chontae, i gContae recognise the difficulties involved. Because we Mhuineacha´in. Ba cheart du´ inn smaoineamh frei- are in a post-conflict situation, and mechanisms sin ar o´ glach John Francis Green — mharaigh were set up by the Good Friday Agreement, the Arm na Breataine e´ agus e´ i gContae Mhuinea- degree of justice that can be attained will be cha´in. Cuimhnimid freisin o´ glach Martin compromised. That is the nature of the agree- Doherty, a maraı´odh anseo i mBaile A´ tha Cliath ment reached by all sectors. If justice is not fully le tacaı´ocht indı´reach o´ sta´tfo´ rsaı´ na Breataine. served by the conviction and imprisonment of We must be mindful of all victims of collusion those involved in horrendous acts, we should and of those who were directly murdered by expect that the information pertaining to those British state forces on Irish ground as well as all acts be given full exposure. That was the value of other victims. There can never be a hierarchy of the truth commission in South Africa. There was victimhood. no expectation of a court or prison process fol- I am disappointed that the term collusion does lowing the information becoming available. How not appear in the title of this debate. Are we we will come to finality on the issue of collusion, afraid to acknowledge that collusion exists? Do how we get this information to the public and people believe collusion is an illusion? how the victims and family members of these cir- In reply to questions from my party colleague cumstances can feel at peace has been left too in the Da´il, Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in, the vague and inconclusive. Although it is good to air Taoiseach stated that the Government would the debate I regret that, following the debate in facilitate an agreed, comprehensive all-party Da´il E´ ireann, we lack a mechanism in the form motion on collusion and provide time to debate of a motion to progress it. In having this debate it. I welcome that response because these state- we must think towards an end to the process ments in the Seanad and the statements in the rather than its continuation. I have put forward Da´il are inadequate without an agreed course of my support for a truth commission and I believe action or a resolution. It is not enough to state it would have widespread support but I acknowl- our views. I expressed this to the Leader on the edge the difficulties involved. If such a process Order of Business. When I voiced my dissatis- were established, the type of information that faction last week I asked for an all-party motion. would emerge, the degree of hurt and wounds He agreed to consult with leaders of the groups that would be reopened would be difficult for us in the Seanad but the same statements are listed to handle on all parts of this island. Most of the on the Order Paper. political reluctance exists because of the question The Minister indicated that meeting the about whether we really need this and whether families of victims of collusion is an indication we can handle it. If we are to move on and put that the Government will not allow these reports behind us a prolonged history of political viol- to gather dust on the shelf. The real indication ence, it is a thorn to be grasped. We must put up would be a joint motion. Fine Gael, the Labour for scrutiny the hidden part of our history. Until Party, Sinn Fe´in and the Green Party are all in we do so there will be far too many unanswered support of that. Even Members from Fianna Fa´il questions and far too many unfulfilled people in would support this. What is the delay? In asking terms of how and why they lost their loved ones. that, I acknowledge the Taoiseach’s commitment I hope the political system can devise the means to Deputy O´ Caola´in. for that to happen soon, in co-operation with all Two years ago, the Da´il and the Seanad passed political forces on this island. a motion calling on the British Government to establish an independent international inquiry Acting Chairman: I call Senator Pearse into the murder of Mr. Pat Finucane. Two months Doherty. The Chair had not been advised that after that, Mr. , the only person con- Senator Doherty was occupying the lead slot of victed in connection with the murder, was the Independent Senators. released after serving three years. He was brought by the British Ministry of Defence to a Senator Pearse Doherty: That may be my fault secret hideout outside Ireland. A deal was done for not advising the Chair. in the case of Mr. Ken Barrett. A guilty plea 999 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements (Resumed) 1000

[Senator Pearse Doherty.] by the British state forces in the North. The ensured no trial or exposure of the central role of Garda investigation, if one could call it that, was British forces in the murder of Mr. Finucane. The inadequate. This State has as many questions to same happened in the cases of other British answer about the murder of as agents involved in the Finucane murder, such as the British state. Mr. Brian Nelson. It is little wonder that the The Fullerton family has been campaigning for British Government has turned down the request an independent public inquiry into Eddie’s mur- of the Finucane family and the Oireachtas for a der. They received unanimous backing from all full inquiry. parties on for that call Collusion is effectively ongoing. The British in 2005. In November 2006, the family finally met system is still protecting its agents and, for them the Taoiseach after many requests but no inquiry more importantly, still protecting senior military has been announced or established. I ask and political figures who ran the system of col- Senators not only to support an all-party motion lusion. For that reason the pressure must be kept and a further debate on all incidents of collusion on the British Government, and that pressure but also the establishment, without delay, by the should include an Oireachtas motion. There also Government of an inquiry into the murder of should be a dedicated summit meeting on col- Eddie Fullerton. lusion between the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister. A central focus of the motion, Senator Cecilia Keaveney: I congratulate and of the summit, should be the demand for the Nuala O’Loan, who did tremendous work as British Government to release all relevant infor- Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman with regard mation in its possession. to many of these controversial incidents, on her In the Da´il yesterday, the Taoiseach said he appointment as roving ambassador to Timor. She could not envisage this information ever being will be of great value to the people of that coun- released. That is not an acceptable answer from try. One of the key questions facing the develop- the Taoiseach. Anybody who doubts the reality ment of the peace process is one many other and extent of collusion between British state countries have faced, namely, is the past too hor- forces in Ireland and Unionist paramilitaries need rific to deal with and one must move on to the only examine the succession of reports that have future or can one not move on to the future been issued. The Barron report concluded, with unless one deals with the past? In one sense it is regard to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, a circular question but it is a vital core issue that that a cover-up involving British forces, the must be addressed. Garda and the Irish Government could not be Today we are discussing collusion and the ruled out. There are other reports from Justice reports produced by the justice committee. I con- Barron as well as the reports of the Oireachtas gratulate all those involved in the committee. justice committee. There is the report into the They put serious work into the reports, came to murder of Patrick Finucane and the involvement conclusions and made strong and blunt recom- of at least five agents of the British state in that mendations. We must examine the recom- killing. The report of the Independent Inter- mendations and consider how they can be acti- national Panel on Collusion in Sectarian Killings vated. It is grand to stand in this Chamber and concluded that in 24 of the 25 cases examined, talk about how terrible the bombings were in including the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, Dublin and Monaghan in 1972 and 1973. I am there is “significant and credible evidence of very aware of the murders that occurred in Burn- involvement of police and military agents of the foot of Brı´d Porter and Oliver Boyce. The family United Kingdom, both directly and in collusion are my constituents. There was the case of Brı´d with loyalist extremists”. Finally, there is the Carroll who was killed on the Lifford-Strabane investigative report of the former Northern road in 1971, the murder of Seamus Ludlow and Ireland Police Ombudsman, Nuala O’Loan, into other atrocities that occurred in 1975 and 1976. the circumstances surrounding the death of We can talk forever about those issues, how Raymond McCord, junior, and related matters, serious they are and how a resolution must be which exposed the systematic reality and extent found, but we cannot get closure. of collusion, including collusion in attacks under- The report states that not only did collusion taken by loyalist paramilitaries in the Twenty-six occur but it was widespread. It seeks greater pol- Counties. itical impetus in highlighting the fact that it I wish to mention the murder of Donegal Sinn occurred and its scale and in identifying measures Fe´in county councillor, Eddie Fullerton, in his to bring closure to the victims. Closure is an home in Buncrana in May 1991. I was too young important issue for all concerned. It also relates to know Eddie personally but the older Members back to the question I mentioned earlier — was of the Houses might have known him. He was a it so horrific that we cannot deal with the past popular elected representative, not only in and must move on or can we not move to the Donegal but throughout the country. He was an future unless we deal with the past? I am charged exemplary republican and a leader in his com- by the Council of Europe at present to compile a munity. He was killed in this jurisdiction at the report on the teaching of history in areas of height of the campaign of collusion orchestrated recent conflict. The concept is whether a multi- 1001 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements (Resumed) 1002 perspective should be given on issues in order weapons at sea but they will not say where they that we can begin to remove the prejudices and are. We are trying to install a pipeline but we bigotry of the children living in areas of recent cannot get information on where these chemical conflict. If we are to give the children the various weapons are located. This could potentially cause perspectives, we must know the history in order a problem. I am a member of the British-Irish that we can teach it. At present, we cannot get Interparliamentary Body and I ask everybody in the facts. We know there was collusion but we the British Government and Parliament to cannot get beyond that because we cannot get the explain what is wrong with giving the people of information, in this instance from the British Ireland a chance to put their past behind them by Government. allowing them to examine it. I acknowledge it is How can we encourage the next generation to painful and difficult, but the problem is that it is analyse and understand not only the history of so currently because they cannot get the infor- their side but of the “other side”, however that is mation. All sides have experienced pain owing to defined, if we cannot get access to that history? I what has happened over the past 40 years. Unfor- am reading a great deal about this issue with tunately, the pain continues. Contrary to what regard to Bosnia, Cyprus and Armenia but I Senator White stated about the bodies not being should know most about the situation in which I found in the bushes, there is still a situation where grew up. Part of the report we did for the Council Mr. Paul Quinn and Mr. Andrew Burns have of Europe—— almost been among those bodies in the bushes. We must put an end to these activities and people Senator Maurice Cummins: On a point of must be accountable for their part in the deeds. order, the Minister of State owes Senator I want to mention the issue of Councillor Eddie Keaveney the respect of listening to her. He has Fullerton. I mentioned my father already on the been texting on his mobile telephone for the past Order of Business. My father was at a county 20 minutes and it is not fair to speakers. I am council meeting with Councillor Fullerton the day sorry for raising the matter but it has happened of the night that he was killed. What went on and throughout the contributions of the last two or three speakers. who was involved is a sore point with the people of Donegal. An Cathaoirleach: A point of order deals with Having spoken to Ms Nuala O’Loan and others a procedural point. That is not a point of order. about the case of Mr. Sea´n Brown who was killed in the North of Ireland, I am astonished at the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, lack of information that can be obtained when Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Conor people do not want to give the information. Lenihan): I have been listening to the speakers. It Senator Walsh spoke of setting up committees is rude of the Senator to make assumptions about in the Oireachtas and in Westminster specifically somebody in the Chamber. to deal with this. The Taoiseach had a good relationship with Tony Blair, the previous British Senator Maurice Cummins: I do not believe it Prime Minister, yet we could not get the infor- is in order for a Minister in the House to text on mation. I would like to think that no committee his or her mobile telephone. would be set up unless we thought we were going somewhere within a certain length of time and Deputy Conor Lenihan: The Senator is mak- with a certain credibility from the highest ranks ing assumptions. within both the British and Irish Governments. We do not need lip-service. This, in a certain way, Senator Maurice Cummins: It is not in order in is lip-service unless there is a decision coming out Standing Orders for Members to use their tele- of it. phones in the Chamber. Given that there is to be devolution of justice Deputy Conor Lenihan: That is not the case. and other areas to Northern Ireland in May or shortly afterwards, I ask that the Northern Senator Cecilia Keaveney: I have a BlackBerry Ireland Executive, on assuming the powers, be which I use to receive e-mails. I appreciate the given all records held in Whitehall of every event point about the courtesy of listening to speakers and that it would be the committee, with a com- but I also appreciate that the Houses are geared mittee in this jurisdiction, that would deal with up for Internet in order that we can e-mail and not only the findings of what occurred but also participate in that way. I do not know if that was the other issues that are still outstanding and what the Minister of State was doing. waiting to be resolved. In compiling my report, I have examined the There is no point in handing over devolved situation in Bosnia, Cyprus and Armenia. I powers to the Northern Ireland Executive and should be in tune with what is happening in the not handing over certain information as well. If it North. An issue that arose in another committee is handed over, the Executive is then in a position is the attempt to install a gas pipeline from whereby it is entitled to deal with the difficult eastern to western Europe. After World War II, issues itself. There has been too much analysis of Britain, America and a third country dumped what information can be given. 1003 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements (Resumed) 1004

[Senator Cecilia Keaveney.] commission such as this being established. Its The clergy in Ireland have stood up to a diffi- purpose would be to find a way to deal with the cult issue in terms of child sex abuse and much legacy of more than 30 years of conflict. The com- information has now been given freely by the mission should deal with truth recovery, should Archbishop of Dublin. The matters before the examine truth commissions elsewhere and how House are of equal importance and of greater they worked, and should agree core principles importance to the people concerned in that and values that would be required as part of a people have been murdered. It is time for the truth commission in this country. Governments to give up all information on all Speaking on behalf of the groups involved in these issues because we cannot stand over a peace this consortium, Ms Margaret Urwin stated: process that deals only with part of the reality of The focus of such a commission should be on what occurred. truth and acknowledgement rather than pros- I again sympathise with those who have gone ecutions. The criminal justice system has frus- round in circles for many years on this issue. I trated rather than facilitated access to the truth. hope the fact we continue to raise the issue gives All combatant groups, British, republican and them confidence. We intend to support them in loyalist should co-operate in good faith and finding a conclusion to their quest. have a moral duty to do so. Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: I welcome this The organisations representing victims of this opportunity to make statements on the report of conflict which supported this call believe that the the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, current investigatory, prosecutorial and judicial Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights on the arrangements offer no realistic prospect of truth violent incidents arising from conflict in Northern recovery for bereaved families. They have called Ireland. A good context in which to put this for the following motion to be supported by both debate is the acknowledgement in the Good Houses of the Oireachtas: Friday Agreement that: “We must never forget That this House those who have died or have been injured, and their families.” I hope this debate will give some — endorses and approves the interim and consolation to the families of the deceased that final reports of the sub-committee of they have not been forgotten. the Oireachtas Joint Committee on As my colleague, Senator Dan Boyle, has Justice, Equality, Defence and spoken on the issue, I will focus on the issue of Women’s Rights on the report of the collusion because there is great concern that this independent commission of inquiry issue is not being dealt with adequately and that into the Dublin-Monaghan Bombing this debate does not contain a specific reference and the three related Barron Reports, to collusion. It is incumbent on the Government including the Inquiry into the Bomb- to put pressure on the British Government and ing of Kay’s Tavern, Dundalk, to use all the opportunities available to it to — calls upon the Ceann Comhairle to encourage that government to examine the find- formally inform the Speaker of the ings of the Barron report, the report of the House of Commons of the UK of the Oireachtas sub-committee and the report from passage of the resolution and to send the MacEntee inquiry, and to encourage the copies of the relevant reports and British Government to address the issues raised other documents, with a request that by these reports, including full disclosure of infor- the matter be considered by the mation as highlighted by Mr. Justice Barron. A members of that House, significant number of the 3,700 murders remain unsolved and families on both sides of the Border — requests the Ceann Comhairle to call still have no explanation why their loved ones upon the British Government, as an were taken from them. It is clear that justice initial step and as a sign of good faith needs to be served. in dealing with the legacy of the con- Victims’ groups, including Justice for the For- flict, to provide access to all the orig- gotten, have proposed different approaches to inal documents relating to the atroci- deal with the past. One recent constructive pro- ties that occurred in this jurisdiction, posal was a call by a consortium of groups for the in particular the Dublin-Monaghan establishment of a truth commission. This Bombing of 1974 which killed 32 Irish approach was advocated previously by the Green citizens, a French and an Italian Party and it is being considered by the Consulta- citizen. tive Group on the Past. This group will report This is a reasonable call by the families and back to the British Government in June and I groups representing the victims. The motion hope its recommendations deal adequately with should be uncontroversial. If both Houses of the all aspects of the atrocities in questions. Oireachtas would agree to do so, we should move The victims’ groups recent call was for an inter- ahead with this. The families of the victims have national, independent truth commission. Other identified the need for the British Government, speakers have mentioned the importance of a in particular the House of Commons, to be called 1005 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements (Resumed) 1006 upon to consider the matter and pass the resol- Catholics were treated as second class citizens in ution. This is an issue that will not go away. It has the North and they showed their anger through a been debated in the Da´il and the Seanad, but that kind of uprising, using the civil rights marches to will not resolve what happened in the past or deal do so. Subsequently we had the appalling with the legacy of the 30 years of conflict unless situation of the atrocity in Derry in 1970 where it is taken a step further. There is much good will many people lost their lives. in both Houses of the Oireachtas towards the Arising from the need of these people to fight families of victims of the violence in Northern for their rights, civil war evolved in the North Ireland of the past 30 years, but there is only so over the past three decades. When the Good much we can do. Friday Agreement was passed and we held our The results of the Barron report were welcome referendum the substantial majority of the and point to interesting information that must be people, both North and South, demonstrated taken on board by the British Government. I their desire and eagerness for peace by their vote. hope that having debated the issue fully today, There were some appalling atrocities during we will consider supporting the kind of motion the Troubles, including the Dublin and that has been drafted by the group representing Monaghan bombings, the bombing in Belturbet, the victims of the atrocities in the North. I hope the Miami Showband crisis and the alleged col- too that we will call on the Ceann Comhairle to lusion. There are still people in this part of forward copies of that motion to the House of Ireland who believe there was collusion in the Commons and ask the British Government to Dublin and Monaghan bombings. A serious alle- provide access to the original documents. This is gation was made that the RIC and some members important in terms of putting this issue to bed. of the Garda Sı´ocha´na were involved in these Unless this is done, we will find ourselves debat- tragic circumstances. ing the issue again. The families and relatives are When I was a Member of the Da´il, I was not, right not to let the issue go as there has not been unfortunately, a member of the sub-committee proper closure on it. In order to have closure, we dealing with the Barron report. If we consider the need to take the matter further and use our diplo- whole situation in the North, we see the sad matic and other powers to try and involve the situation we had over many years where British Government in the way the families feel Catholics were killing Protestants and where we it needs to be involved so that it will take the kind had a kind of ethnic cleansing in certain areas, of action that will help. which was appalling. However, when one looks The establishment of the truth commission at atrocities where there was collusion, either by with an international composition is important. the armed forces or the RIC and possibly with the Other countries look to Ireland because of the knowledge of State agencies, this raises serious conflict that existed in the North for so long and concerns for me and many others. we are seen as having certain expertise and In order to bring some closure to the war and insights into situations of serious conflict from these atrocities, it is important that we, the which other conflict zones can benefit. How we Government, Da´il, Seanad, Northern Ireland find closure on the issue of the bombings in Assembly and Westminster, continue to strive in Monaghan and other situations of violence and a democratic open fashion to find the solutions to conflict in Northern Ireland will be used as a tem- enable us to put aside these appalling events of plate by other parties involved in situations of our past. Thankfully, since the Omagh bombings, conflict around the world. there has been no serious explosion of any sort. It is important we get closure on this. The Appalling as that bombing was, it was a catalyst recommendations I have made are important in for change. We now have a situation in the North this regard, namely, the setting up of the truth where both sides are sitting in Government commission and the agreeing of a motion by both together and working together for the benefit of Houses of the Oireachtas with the request to the everyone. Ceann Comhairle that it be forwarded to the Both sides suffered appalling consequences of House of Commons seeking the British Govern- the violence, with over 3,000 people murdered ment’s co-operation in this matter. There should and thousands injured or maimed. We should be little difficulty getting cross-party support for learn from our past. It is a concern that despite these recommendations. It is important we are all the inquiries we have had, we have not got to seen to have a clear outcome from the recent the root of the problem or of the various issues debate in the Da´il and our debate here. I will fin- that arose. We had the Cory collusion inquiry ish by stressing the importance of moving this for- process, the Smithwick tribunal of inquiry, ward and taking further action. chaired by Judge Peter Smithwick a retired Pres- ident of the District Court, and various Barron Senator Denis O’Donovan: I support previous reports over the years, but there are still question speakers and the call for a united motion by both marks in some people’s minds hanging over the Houses of the Oireachtas to advance the cause activities of, possibly, the Garda and what type of of this tragic situation. I grew up in an era when collusion was involved and who knew what. The hostilities in the North began to evolve, initiating Dublin and Monaghan bombings of 1974 were a with the civil rights movement. At that time massive atrocity. One of the bombs went off quite 1007 Northern Ireland Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements (Resumed) 1008

[Senator Denis O’Donovan.] failed. We must recall that when we revisited this close to this House, causing mayhem and death issue in 2000, we were shocked to realise the lim- and injury to many people. ited time that had been given to the investigation I laud the efforts of the group, Justice for the of the bombings. We were embarrassed, as a Forgotten. It strived for many years, initially in nation. Senator Jim Walsh, as a member of the vain but with some success more recently, to Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality highlight the plight of many, for and Women’s Rights, played a key role at the 2 o’clock example, the atrocious situation Barron hearings, which I had the honour of where many people disappeared in attending as an observer. The most difficult issue the North and were never found. It is an appalling was the fact that it took 25 years to reopen the situation when somebody is taken down a back investigation, as the files on the atrocities were alley and tied up and shot in the back of the head, closed in August 1974. That fact will never leave but at least their body is found and the relatives us. and the family can find closure in that death. Thanks to the work of the committee, the testi- Those families have some sort of resolution. monies and experience of victims and their However, it is different in situations where, for families have been heard publicly and in an example, as in the appalling case of the mother appropriate way. We saw the emotion, pain and of ten children who came to the aid of a wounded anguish of the survivors and the families of those British soldier, the person is taken away, who had been killed. It was a searing experience. executed and the body is never found. There are It is difficult to imagine how it must have felt for several more such cases. Attempts were made by them, to have to wait 25 years for a real investi- various groups to resolve these cases and the gation to take place. The Taoiseach made an Taoiseach has expressed his desire that closure be apology in the Da´il on behalf of the Government brought for those affected by such appalling for the premature closing of the investigation. events. The issue of collusion between the security For the first time in more than 50 years there forces and paramilitaries in perpetrating these is good will, both north and south of the Border attacks always has been a central, unanswered and in Westminster, towards resolving outstand- question. Sadly, that remains true to this day. Our ing issues, ensuring the peace strategy is strength- Government, led by the Taoiseach, has consist- ened and finding answers regarding the Dublin ently called on the British Government to meet and Monaghan bombings. its responsibilities, to co-operate with inquiries in One could ask if there will ever be total clos- this State and to help the process of discovering ure. Will the total truth ever be found? If one the truth about what happened. In the past looks, for example, at the appalling Whiddy month, the Taoiseach reiterated his call on the Island disaster in Bantry Bay, which has nothing British Government to be up-front and fully par- to do with Northern Ireland, in which 50 lives ticipate in these investigations. In the Da´il on 30 were lost, despite a tribunal of inquiry, nobody January 2008 the Taoiseach stated: knows precisely what happened that night. A ship exploded but we do not know where the negli- The willingness of the British authorities to gence lay. I am still not sure, even though as a co-operate with the various inquiries has been young, trainee solicitor, I worked at the tribunal tested and in many cases found wanting. We in Dublin and Bantry. The answers to the ques- tried to address these issues by establishing tions posed by that disaster never emerged. inquiries into certain important and representa- tive cases in discussions with the British I fully support my colleagues who have Government at Weston Park in July 2001. expressed the unanimous view of this House that we should move forward and try to bring resol- At Weston Park, the Taoiseach tried valiantly to ution and closure. That is my heartfelt wish too. persuade the British Government to fully co- operate. For our part, under the former Minister Senator Mary M. White: This debate deals with for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, former a matter of great national importance. It is about Deputy Michael McDowell, an investigation into a series of atrocities perpetrated on innocent the deaths of Superintendents Harry Breen and people in our country, including the bombings of Bob Buchanan was set up and is now proceeding 1974 in Dublin and Monaghan, which resulted in under Judge Peter Smithwick. While inquiries are the greatest loss of life on a single day during the under way in the cases of Mr. Robert Hamill, Ms Troubles, when 33 people were killed. I remem- Rosemary Nelson, whom I knew personally ber hearing one of the bombs going off in Nassau through my activities as an observer on the Garv- Street as I worked in the National Building aghy Road, and Mr. Billy Wright, an inquiry into Agency at the time. the death of Mr. Pat Finucane has not been estab- Today’s debate is about justice for victims and lished by the British Government. The Taoiseach about how victims and survivors were, and are, has made it clear that he wants an independent treated. We know more today about the circum- inquiry to be held, as recommended by Judge stances in which the attacks on Dublin and Peter Cory. Monaghan were carried out, the investigations of We have reached a profoundly positive new these crimes and where those investigations stage in the peace process in Northern Ireland. 1009 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1010

Relationships between unionism and nationalism, small roundwood, recycled wood and wood between North and South and between east and waste. Finally, there is the harvesting and trans- west have never been better. What drives us all port sector that forms the essential link between now is the determination that never again shall the growing and processing sectors. Total our people experience and bear witness to a ter- employment in the forestry sector is estimated at rible conflict. The work of reconciliation must 16,000 persons. This all generates considerable continue and the victims and survivors must be as economic activity and benefits in the wider econ- much a part of the future as they are of the past. omy and more especially in the rural com- munities. Sitting suspended at 2.05 p.m. and resumed at The current processing requirement is just 2.45 p.m. under 4 million cu. m. per annum and there is a current deficit of 400,000 cu. m. per annum, which Forestry Issues: Statements. has to be met through imports. There is an estab- lished and growing industry based on raw An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I welcome the Mini- material from Irish forests and it is important that ster of State, Deputy , to the continuity of supply of this raw material is House. maintained. Farmers are now the key people engaging in Minister of State at the Department of Agri- planting. Forestry is a realistic land use option culture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Mary where there are 100% establishment grants for Wallace): I welcome the opportunity to make a the planting of trees and an annual tax-free pre- ´ statement to Seanad Eireann on forestry, for mium of up to \573 per hectare for up to 20 years. which I have special responsibility in the Depart- An additional premium of up to \200 per hectare ment of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I intend for five years is available to farmers in the rural to briefly highlight for the information of environment protection scheme, REPS, who join Members the importance of forestry to farmers, the forest environment protection scheme, FEPS, the economy and the environment in the and plant part of their land in accordance with reduction of greenhouse gas emissions and their that scheme. I was pleased to introduce a number impact on global warming. I will outline why it is of significant changes to the FEP scheme last vital that forestry be sustained in the years ahead week. The main changes were a reduction in the through encouragement and incentives to farmers minimum size to five hectares for farms with less for new planting. I look forward to Members’ than 30 hectares and, in respect of bigger farms, contributions on this important matter. to dispense with the sliding scale and pay a flat It is useful to put forestry in context. The area rate premium of \200 per hectare, for planted of the national forest estate is some 700,000 hec- areas of eight hectares or more, irrespective of tares, more than 10% of the total land area. farm size. Based on what the sector has conveyed While this has expanded significantly since the to me, these changes to FEPS should provide a mid-1980s with the introduction of grant schemes boost to our planting figures. I was, therefore, aimed at encouraging private landowners, mainly pleased to be able to deliver this package as it is farmers, to become involved in forestry, it is rela- further evidence of the Government’s commit- tively low compared to our EU counterparts ment to forestry and an acknowledgement of for- given that 35% of the total land in the EU is estry as a positive contributory factor in the areas under forest cover. Of the national forest estate, of the economy, rural development, climate more than 57% is in public ownership through change and renewable energy. Coillte and the remaining 43% is in private Forestry is a source of real income for the ownership. Some 25 years ago, 85% was in public farmer in terms of an annual income from the ownership and 15% was in private ownership. premium, in the medium term from the returns Approximately 16,000 plantations are privately from thinnings and in the long term from the end owned, predominantly by farmers. value of the crop. Last April, for example, almost There is no doubt that the full economic contri- \57 million was paid out in the annual forestry bution of forestry goes far beyond the forest gate. premium payment under the forestry programme. Ireland’s forestry comprises a growing sector, a As I have already mentioned, this is an annual vibrant forest industry and a modern harvesting tax-free premium. and transport sector. The growing sector com- Due to the current strong market demand the prises many small and medium sized enterprises price for timber in Ireland is very high. First thin- that service Ireland’s woods and forests, including nings that two years ago were sold standing for forest nurseries, consultants, self-assessment com- between \1.50 and \3.00 per cu. m. are now fetch- panies and forest contractors. The processing sec- ing \8.50, which makes it more attractive than tor includes conifer and hardwood sawmills that ever to thin early. As the quantity removed at rely on the growing sector as a source of raw first thinning is usually between 40 and 50 cu. m. material. There are nine large to medium sized this represents an income of \340 to \425 per hec- fully automated sawmills and approximately 100 tare. Where the harvesting of stake material is small sawmills. There are also four boardmill pro- an option, a higher income will be realized. The cessing industries, which utilise a combination of national forest inventory, which we published in 1011 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1012

[Deputy Mary Wallace.] an annual basis. These forests are well below December after a two year survey of the Irish for- their maximum annual carbon dioxide uptake est estate, estimated that 21,000 hectares of forest with the result that the period to 2020 will see a established in the private sector are at a stage rapid increase in annual sequestration to in excess where they could be thinned. There is an attract- of 4 million tonnes. National investment in affor- ive financial benefit in farmers and landowners estation, particularly since 1985, is the main taking immediate steps towards thinning their reason that forests are contributing to climate forests thus gaining income from thinnings and change mitigation at this level. This is borne out adding greatly to the timber value of their for- by the fact that in the 23 years since the introduc- estry assets. If I have two messages to contribute tion of the forestry grant and premium scheme to today’s debate one relates to income value for 200,000 hectares of new forest, over a quarter of farmers and the other is that 21,000 hectares are the entire forest area of the country, have been ready to be thinned and doing so is in farmers’ established. interests. As well as reducing the levels of greenhouse A number of producer groups have been estab- gases in the atmosphere, the new forests will lished throughout the country, which are, with lessen the cost of Irish compliance with our Kyoto funding from my Department, currently promot- Protocol targets. Over the five years between now ing thinning and developing local markets for and the end of 2012, estimates are that over 10 those thinnings. It is also important to note that million tonnes of carbon dioxide will be taken up while most forests are ready for first thinning by forests within the Kyoto Protocol framework, from year 15, the crop may be thinned on a five- resulting in potential savings of more than \200 year cycle thereafter. million to the State, at current purchase prices of Another important return that is sometimes \20 per tonne of carbon dioxide. Should the cur- not fully taken into account when evaluating for- rent carbon accounting frameworks continue estry as a possible enterprise is the end value of beyond 2012, the annual contribution of forests the timber crop. Currently, the estimate for the to national compliance, in today’s costs, will be value of timber at clearfell stage ranges from close to \100 million. To sustain this level of con- \12,000 to \15,000 per hectare, depending on a tribution to climate change continued investment number of variables including market prices, crop in the afforestation programme will be required quality and species. It is important to note that over the coming decade and beyond. Not only income from sale of thinnings and timber at clear- will forests remove carbon from the atmosphere, fell is tax-free. The increase in the price of timber they will also make a sustained contribution to by some 20% to 25% in the last 18 months was renewable energy targets and the development of encouraging because as demand rises for this the wood processing sector in Ireland. renewable product so too must returns to pro- Policies and measures targeted at increasing ducers, primarily farmers. the use of a range of renewable energy sources, Forestry should be encouraged because it including wood biomass, are set out in the White offers a substantial income to landowners annu- Paper on energy and the biomass action plan for ally in both the medium term and long term. Ireland. Forestry is well placed to contribute to There are also other non-monetary factors to be these goals by producing clean renewable wood taken into account such as the way in which var- fuels from Irish forests. The forest service of my ious enterprises complement each other, the type Department and the National Council for Forest of land and how labour intensive and time con- Research and Development, COFORD, an suming an enterprise is, especially if a farmer is agency of my Department, have estimated that also working part-time off the farm. wood energy has the potential to contribute emis- Not only should we encourage new planting as sions savings in excess of 4 million tonnes of a source of income for farmers, we should also carbon dioxide per annum by 2020 if the full appreciate the other significant benefits accruing range of measures envisaged, from heat, com- from forestry. There is increasing awareness and bined heat and power, and power generation are appreciation of forestry vis-a`-vis its role in realised. Wood, once it is procured from forests climate change. Climate change is now a top pol- that are sustainably managed, where trees that itical priority as we address ways to reduce green- are felled are replaced and forest cover is main- house gas emissions and their impact on global tained, is a carbon neutral fuel source. It can be warming over the period to 2020. Forestry has a renewed indefinitely. Harvesting, on the scale distinct role in addressing climate change in the needed to supply both the traditional wood prod- Irish context. Our existing forests represent a uct outlets for pulp and sawlog and the emerging very significant store of carbon dioxide, the most energy market, needs to be rapidly developed important greenhouse gas, and our recently com- over the coming years. In recognising this need pleted national forest inventory has shown that it we have put in place capital grants for the pur- is many times larger than the total annual emis- chase of wood energy harvesting equipment. sions of greenhouse gases. The store is growing Wood energy harvesting, processing, instal- rapidly, particularly in younger forests planted lation and maintenance will create many new jobs since 1990, which are removing over 2 million in rural Ireland and, by displacing energy imports, tonnes of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere on will aid security of supply, one of the key objec- 1013 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1014 tives of Irish energy policy. Already a number of well in her new position, which is an onerous and companies are involved in the supply of wood interesting ministerial portfolio. Of all the work energy for heating. To date, Sustainable Energy done by Departments, the development of for- Ireland has grant aided 128 biomass boiler pro- estry presents a win-win scenario. Forestry has a jects, about 52 MW of capacity, 73 of which use significant and positive contribution to make to wood chips, 45 of which use wood pellets and 10 farming, the environment, the economy, the tim- of which use a combination. In addition 3,500 pel- ber industry, wildlife, energy substitution and the let boilers have been installed under the greener generation of new energy sources. homes scheme and a further 1,500 applications The Minister of State’s contribution was lit- are being processed. In line with these devel- tered with statistics, which is usually a negative opments new pellet production and storage facili- sign. However, the figures she provided were ties are coming on stream, with two in the process interesting and I noted some of them. I had, for of being constructed. instance, forgotten the proportion of the Irish This wood energy market creates a market for landmass covered in forest. According to the thinnings from forests during their growing cycle. Minister of State, the figure now stands at As I have mentioned, many of the farm forests approximately 10%, compared to a European that were established in the late 1980s and early average of 35%. While we cannot expect to reach 1990s are now close to thinning, which improves the EU average, there is significant scope for the quality and increases the size of remaining further progress. Having said that, a debate has trees, allowing larger commercial timber to grow. commenced on the utility of food production ver- The developing wood energy market will create sus energy crops. At a meeting of the Joint Com- an outlet for such thinnings. However, once these mittee on Agriculture and Food this morning, I markets are developed there must be continuity pointed out that from a global perspective food of supply into the future and this is another is becoming scarcer, with food production having reason it is necessary to encourage new planting. been in deficit for the past five years. This imbal- There are many factors affecting the rate of plant- ance will need to be addressed. While we cannot ing, both within and outside our control, and we devote all available land in Ireland or Europe to need to address what we can. I requested Mr. forestry given the importance of food production, John Malone, former Secretary General of this expanding forestry remains both necessary and Department, to undertake a study on the factors feasible. affecting the rate of afforestation in recent years, The first forestry grants were introduced given the many incentives to plant already avail- approximately 20 years ago. The Minister of State able to landowners. I look forward to receiving cited an interesting statistic on the proportion of his report shortly. Irish forests planted since that date. While the fig- I have concentrated on the significance of for- ure is significant, one must ask the reason the estry as a source of income to farmers and its role response has not been greater, given the generous in climate change and renewable energy. I am not grant aid available to farmers to plant forests and overlooking the role it has to play in the added incentive that income from forestry is 3 o’clock the environment, in the provision of tax free. Interest in afforestation has not recreation and to society generally. increased as quickly as it should have. The REP We are currently appreciating those benefits. We scheme solved certain problems but created need to ensure forestry is still around in the years others, whereas the new scheme, which combines ahead to continue to provide those benefits to our REPS farming and forestry, will be a useful step children and to future generations. The time to forward. I welcome progress in this regard and act is now. There is ongoing coverage of the con- ask the Minister of State to ensure the scheme is sequences of deforestation throughout the world. developed further. We need to ensure forestry remains a feature of It is in the interests of the Government and the landscape and economy and continues to rural communities to significantly increase the provide an income stream for farmers and a ste- level of forestry plantations. If farmers and grow- ady supply of material for the timber and energy ing agencies do not respond to the substantial sectors. grants available, it may be necessary to increase As Minister of State with responsibility for for- grant aid or to offer further incentives, partic- estry, I am committed to the sustainable develop- ularly in light of the timber deficit in the Irish ment of forestry and I hope Senators, as public market. Timber is one of the few agricultural representatives, will assist me in this objective products Ireland must import in significant quan- through the encouragement of new planting and tities. The Minister of State should be able to sell the development of the sector generally. I thank to her colleagues in Government the case for Senators for affording me an opportunity to out- increasing afforestation grants, particularly given line the position of forestry in Ireland. the impact of forestry on income substitution, family farm income and the environment. Senator : I welcome the Minister It is the environmental aspect of forestry that of State, a former colleague of mine in both the catches the public imagination most. Members of Seanad and Da´il, to the House in which we both the public are tuned into environmental matters started our political careers in 1987. I wish her much more than in the past. Even the youngest 1015 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1016

[Senator Paul Bradford.] me about it. I remember a former Member of the schoolchildren now speak of global warming and Da´il, Ted Nealon, speaking many times about climate change and everybody accepts that for- marginally viable farming land put up for sale estry plantations and planting trees have a posi- being purchased by people who planted forestry. tive environmental impact. We must consider the This is one of the difficulties but we cannot have issue from this perspective. it every way. Energy substitution and maximising the use of The grants system gives a premium or advan- wood chip fuel and old-fashioned timber offers tage to the growing of forestry in less marginal scope to reduce our reliance on oil and other areas and it is also making it more appealing in imported fuels. The Minister of State referred to those parts of our island which previously were the green energy grants scheme which was wel- not deemed to be attractive for forestry growing. comed by all sides. While Government revenues We are getting more balanced development, may not be flowing as freely as they did three or which I welcome. However, as in all walks of life four years ago, it was disappointing that one of we cannot have it every way. We cannot grow the first measures taken by the Minister for more trees from an environmental and energy Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, point of view and bemoan the fact that farming Deputy Eamon Ryan of the Green Party, was to land is lost. reduce the value of some of the grants available We should not move away from the important to householders to switch to more environmen- food versus energy debate because it must be tally friendly heating systems. This decision addressed with regard to food from a world per- should be reviewed. While it is not the Minister of spective. We have scope at home to significantly State’s specific responsibility, the Minister should increase our plantations. I look forward to the revert to the more favourable rate of grant aid. Minister of State’s ongoing interest and devel- It is Minister’s responsibility to make grant aid opments in this regard. The role may be deemed available and the Minister of State’s role to what is termed a “junior ministry” but it is ensure the product, that is, timber, is available. extremely important to the development of rural We should aspire to having energy friendly Ireland, our energy supplies and our envir- heating systems installed in all houses, old and onment. I wish her well in her endeavours. new. The issue of supply was brought to my atten- tion as soon as people began to install wood chip Senator John Ellis: Senator Bradford finished and wood pellet boilers. I am pleased, therefore, on a point I was going to make. I attended many that the Minister of State indicated that a number public meetings — I am sure Senator O’Reilly of new plants are being established to meet was also called to many — on the problems demand for these products. There is little point caused by private afforestation companies backed in Members encouraging constituents to switch to by pension funds and other operations which did an alternative or green fuel system if the product not need to make a commercial return. They is not readily available. I understand most wood forced a number of farmers out of business by pellets are sourced from the North. The establish- being able to pay more for land for forestry ment in this jurisdiction of factories producing because of the tax breaks available to them. This wood pellets would be a welcome development. has had a major detrimental effect as far as cer- Forestry has a significant and expanding role to tain parts of the west of Ireland are concerned. play in terms of the environment, which is an area The land in question was not always marginal people readily understand. We should encourage land as better plots of land were available and this development. As I indicated, the develop- taken out by forestry companies. ment of forestry is a win-win scenario. The more The grant scheme was tiered so hardwood was of it we have, the better it will be for rural areas, at a higher rate than sitka spruce or pines. The farming communities, rural sustainability, the net result of this is that 15 to 20 years ago every environment and future energy supplies. The bit of reasonably good land in my part of the statistics speak for themselves. It is one of the few country was forced into afforestation. If one was products we can grow naturally for which a gap not able to pay more than the private forestry exists in the market. We are not talking about companies one did not get the land. Rather than European subsidies or any degree of false State being able to expand one was put out of business aid. We are talking about simply supporting what because once forestry was introduced alongside we need not only for the present but well into one’s farm one had problems with vermin and the future. other problems associated with forestry. Nothing Whenever one drives past a forestry plantation can be done about this now but I predict that whether it be 40, 50 or 60 years old, one gets a within 20 years all of the trees will be pulled out great sense of where one is and one reflects on because the land will have to return to food pro- who planted it and the farmers who existed. This duction. It is becoming marginal as to whether we is another positive side to our forestry industry. will have trees or food to feed the people on the Five to ten years ago a difficulty existed in planet. This is already happening in some cases. some parts of the country, in particular in the Forestry plays a major role in helping to west of Ireland. Senator Ellis is present, and his improve the environment. At one level, it is previous constituency colleagues often spoke to important that carbon is removed. However, 1017 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1018 nobody ever mentions a major negative caused in inspection for the new suckler payment, for the west by indiscriminate planting beside water- REPS, an area based inspection and an entire courses and rivers whch is that all of the fish were stock check. Forestry is planted and cleared, killed. Whether people want to admit it, when the checked over for the first year or two and after needles fall and rot an acid is secreted and seep- that the grant is paid without question. I could age of this into our watercourses has killed off show officials sites which could be described only fish in many smaller rivers. We all know this and as scrub. Furze took over before trees got estab- we must accept it happened. I do not know lished. It is now the case of an odd tree coming whether it could have been avoided but it might up through the furze but the landowner is still have been if we had proper planning regulations paid the grant aid, which is wrong. and people were only allowed to plant deciduous, Proper provision must be made to ensure roads hardwood or non-coniferous trees within 20 m are not damaged during clear-felling. Leitrim of watercourses. County Council is always seeking moneys from Grant assistance is of great value to those who the Department and elsewhere to cover damage receive it. However, as first thinnings are taken done to roads by tree-felling operations. This also out after 20 years the first crop of any farmer who leads to communities becoming agitated and not plants and maintains forestry is yielded after 15 wanting more plantations. to 20 years. After this, no income is received until I note in the Minister of State’s projections the the next thinnings. It is not a viable prospect for any farmer, although it is a viable prospect for proposed figures are dropping. They will drop investors or insurance companies. It is being more despite her best efforts because people have peddled as a farm crop and it should be explained copped on that while it may be attractive at the that the first thinnings will be after 20 years and start, forestry plantations after 20 years leave the only income after this will be made from tim- nothing else but timber sales. They may be tax ber sales. People under 50 years of age see this free, suit pension funds and those with a consider- as a cash cow for 20 years, forgetting their life able income other than from farming. A farmer, expectancy can be up to 80 years and they will however, getting into forestry planting will not have ten years of no return. see the returns down the line for which he would Senator Bradford mentioned wood pellets. have hoped. Many people discovered recently that at one The Minister of State claims the average value stage this was a monopoly market and supplies of thinnings, the first crop between 15 years and were tight. The costs rose significantly from what 20 years, works out at \150 and \200 per acre. was originally predicted 18 months or two years That is the total income other than grants for the ago. While it is market-driven, it should be first 20 years. I accept every five years, a certain examined. amount can be removed from a plantation and Problems with clear felling are arising now with the final clear-fell could be between \12,000 and regard to what was planted 20 or 25 years ago. \15,000 per hectare. However, having to wait for Clear felling of land leaves scars on our landscape 40 years to reach the final clear-fell and taking in and should be dealt with. Tree-felling licences other factors such as felling costs, what one should be issued on the understanding that clear receives for the timber and an unreliable market felling should not occur within 15 m or 20 m of means one is entering into an uncertain business. roadways. Timber should be left to allow a new It is a tempting prospect for certain age groups. forest to build up or to be replanted. It should It is the way to go for those who are 65 years. A also be mandatory that tree felling licences be 45 year old farmer will see a reasonable income issued with the condition that replanting should for 20 years. However, when he reaches 65 his be done within one year. Areas have been left for concern will be his pension. He will not get any years before they were replanted. This is prob- pension from the farm. If he had maintained it ably because grant assistance is not available to even as a farm, the leasing value would be much replant land which has been clear felled. I do not know what the departmental officials will state higher than the forestry income after 20 years. about this. Perhaps the Minister of State will clar- The implications of forest plantations should ify the matter in her reply. be fully explained to those wishing to get Lack of maintenance of forests frightens us all. involved. Forestry is needed from an environ- Once the fences went up and the gates were mental point of view but it is a two-edged sword. locked much of the land which was planted was There is the environmental and structural forgotten about. A great deal of private forestry damage from clear-felling. There is also the ques- has been badly maintained. The net result of this tion whether the cost-benefit analysis will show it is that only a fraction of a potentially decent crop is worth it for the farmer in the long term. Those is produced and this is wrong. with marginal agricultural land should be encour- It is also wrong that people are paid grants aged to plant. It is not the best option for those without a proper annual inspection system. A with less marginal land, on the knife edge so to farmer receiving a single payment grant can have speak. I do not understand why Coillte leaves two, three, four or five inspections per year large tracts of clear-felled land unplanted, leaving depending on how it falls. One can have an the countryside scarred. 1019 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1020

Senator Brendan Ryan: The latest figures to tribution to our environment. It is accepted by all hand indicate the forestry industry accounts for sides in this House that forestry plays a key role approximately 0.3% of annual gross domestic in delivering our targets under the national product with some 16,000 people employed, climate change strategy and the national biodiv- either directly or indirectly, in the sector. In ersity plan. New forests established under grant excess of 16,000 private plantations have been aid since 1990 will qualify as areas that will con- established, the majority, more than 14,000, tribute to Ireland meeting its emission reduction established by farmers. targets under the Kyoto Protocol. Forests planted In 2005, \57.8 million in forestry premiums since 1990 will absorb approximately 2 million were paid out to forest owners. As well as the tonnes of carbon dioxide per year over the next timber benefits, non-timber benefits are becom- four years. This can be used to offset greenhouse ing increasingly important such as recreation, gas emissions. carbon storage and the biodiversity benefits of This highlights the need for the Government to forestry. This is approaching a value of \100 mil- show more initiative in adopting an appropriate lion per annum. and well-thought out strategy for the develop- Some 25% of our forestry cover is now broad- ment of the forestry industry. It should reward leaf, a massive shift from the traditional conifer woodland owners for the environmental benefits forestry. This change is as a result of the Govern- that accrue from their forests. In doing so, the ment’s grant aid policy which financially encour- Government undoubtedly would entice more aged woodland owners to plant broadleaf species. farmers and landowners to commit their most The Minister of State confirmed 43% of forest valuable asset — their land — to forestry. estate is now privately owned. The pattern of The IFA’s farm forestry committee put for- Irish forestry has changed to one of smaller for- ward an interesting idea of a green forest pay- ests with greater species diversity. Also, it is ment. This would be paid annually to woodland gradually coming down from the peat uplands to owners for the wide range of non-timber benefits the lower lying mineral lands. which their forests provide. Currently, the Kyoto I welcome these developments as they will Protocol provides no mechanism to reward wood- bring about a significant and positive change to land owners financially for the positive environ- our landscape and facilitate the development of mental and non-timber benefits provided by their a widespread wood culture. It will bring about a forests, a good concept worthy of serious con- mixture of different habitat types and contribute sideration. I urge the Minister of State to consult to the increased biodiversity of our countryside. with her Cabinet colleagues, with the Minister for Despite these notable advances, all is not as the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- rosy as one might think. The forestry service’s ment and with other stakeholders to see whether recent detailed survey of our forestry indicates a such proposals could be introduced. forest cover of just 10%, well below the Euro- There are some grave shortcomings in the man- pean average. The Government’s strategic plan, agement of our forests. The Forest Service has entitled Growing for the Future: A Strategic Plan pointed out that 87% of private plantations are for the Development of the Forestry Sector, pub- not thinned. This is an alarming figure. It has lished nearly 12 years ago, set an annual target of been speculated that if we thinned half the plan- afforestation of 20,000 hectares until 2030. This tations that are currently suitable for thinning, we target has never been achieved, neither in this would obtain more than half a million cubic century or in the years leading up to it. The level metres of wood. At a time when we are trying of afforestation was as low as 7,000 hectares in to encourage alternative energy projects such as 2007, 35% of the target set out in the Govern- wood chip burners, it seems incredible that we ment’s strategic plan. This is an indication of the are content to leave more than half a million level of ongoing interest the Government has in cubic metres of wood in our forests. The Govern- the industry, in developing it and in supporting ment should encourage private woodland owners the 16,000 people who derive their livelihoods — financially or otherwise — to thin their forests, from it. The figure of 35% is not even a pass rate. and we should make use of this perfectly good It is a shameful record. resource that nature has provided. That this In the era of peak oil and ever-increasing resource is out there unused and untapped is a energy prices, the value of a renewable and great shame. home-grown wood energy takes on an increasing We are blessed with perhaps the healthiest for- importance. Ten years ago the cost of a barrel of est estate in Europe, but we must continue to do oil was as low as $20; now we are hitting $100 a everything to ensure the good health of our for- barrel. What will a barrel of oil will cost in ests. We need to maintain the strict regulatory another ten years? It is time for the Government policies that have protected our plantations. I to be proactive, increase investment in the for- urge the Government to continue to insist on the estry industry and assist it in realising its full most stringent regulations regarding the import- potential. ation of timber and timber products. We have Climate change has become an issue men- seen that the Government has recently been less tioned in the House every day and has permeated rigorous in the area of cattle importation and has many debates. Forestry makes a significant con- allowed cattle to be brought here from different 1021 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1022 regions of the world. This has resulted in the been no great return from this. People have introduction of diseases that were never here received grants, but the planting is a blight on the before and has raised fears about the overall landscape from a sightseeing point of view. Many health of our herd. I would not like the same to of these trees were planted on virgin bog. If the happen in the timber industry. Imported timber land had been left alone it would be of equal use. must be accepted only from pest-free regions of Senator Ellis also alluded to the condition of the world. The task is great, and climate change roads and fences left by forestry activities. I con- will not make that task any easier. The increases cur that there should be some provision to deal in temperature mean that insects and pests are on with this. At the moment, when trees are felled the move. We need to be prepared and vigilant. and removed from the forests the roads are some- It is also worth noting that we are the biggest times left in a terrible condition, but people still importers of rain forest timber in Europe. We have to use them. I know there are grants in place need to be adamant that all timber imported into in this regard but they are not being used prop- Ireland comes from sustainably managed wood- erly. In west Mayo, which is the most scenic area lands. The Labour Party believes that sustainable of the county, trees have been removed in the forestry is of huge importance in securing the past four or five years without being replaced or continued viability of rural Ireland. We are con- the areas refurbished. It is an eyesore. Large vinced that forestry remains a major option for numbers of tourists go through this area and they effective land use in this country. Our forests con- ask why this has happened. The local population tribute enormously, and beyond simple monetary is also angry about it. value, to the economic, environmental and social Demand for timber is high. In the west there well-being of our society. For these three reasons, are a number of facilities producing wood stakes, I urge the Minister, and particularly her Green which have provided employment in these areas. Party colleagues, to commit themselves to action For example, the Gaeltacht Co-operative in Corr on this, to follow through on their commitments na Mo´ na, was set up by our former colleague, to the industry and to encourage increased for- Deputy E´ amon O´ Cuı´v, before he became a TD estry cover in Ireland. or a Minister, and there is the facility at Hollymount. These employ quite a number of Senator John Carty: I wish to share my time people in the production of these raw materials. with Senator Ann Ormonde. This is important to the local economy, which does not have a high employment rate. Acting Chairman: In what way would the I ask the Minister of State to consider the pro- Senator like to divide the time? posal that many more broadleaf trees be sown on good land. The Forest Service is considering this. Senator John Carty: Five minutes and three These trees are vitally important and they look minutes. good. I know they take a long time to mature but we must look to the future. We may not be Senator Ann Ormonde: That would be lovely. around to enjoy them but they would be good for the country and the economy. Senator John Carty: I welcome the Minister of I thank the Minister of State for coming to the State to the House and congratulate her on the House and for her introduction of the new introduction of the forest environment protection scheme. Many farmers in my part of the world scheme. The Minister introduced the FEP scheme will welcome the extra payments that will be on a pilot basis in early 2007, and it is testament given out. to her eagerness to have it implemented that she has brought it forward so quickly — we are now Senator Ann Ormonde: I welcome the Minister only in the first months of 2008. I particularly wel- of State to the Chamber. It is my first opportunity come it because it gives people in my area, where to wish her well in her role. I know very little land is marginal, an opportunity to plant. I about forestry. Many years ago the area of for- especially welcome the reduction in the minimum estry was covered by the Department of Lands size to 5 ha. for farms with 30 ha. or less. For and Forestry, but it suddenly faded out of the pic- bigger farms, the sliding scale has been dispensed ture and I no longer heard any discussion of this with and instead, a flat rate premium of \200 per issue. When I heard the Minister of State was to hectare will be paid for planted areas of 8 ha. or receive this new brief I thought she was in a win- more, irrespective of farm size. This is good news win situation. Forestry is good for the economy, for both small and large REPS farmers with for farmers and for the environment, especially in enhanced incentives. It is also good news that view of climate change. The Minister of State has their entitlements will not be affected, which is a major role to play here. She can turn it into very important in that part of the country. anything she wants but it will be a success story. I ask the Minister of State to consider the fact I know she is working towards this in all of the that some very marginal land has been planted areas I mentioned. in years past and this has been of little benefit, I love trees. I love walking in the environment especially in the north west and west of the coun- and looking at old trees and talking about them. try. Large areas have been planted but there has They offer a whole new way to consider our 1023 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1024

[Senator Ann Ormonde.] bears consideration. We should be concerned environment and our archaeology, and the world about the fact that we import Canadian and US out there wants wooded landscapes. We do not hardwood and ivory. want to be surrounded by flatness but to have the We need to put more emphasis on regular fel- feeling of woodland. It is beautiful to see the old ling, which is not happening in our forests. There trees in blossom. The Minister of State has a needs to be more regular thinning and there golden opportunity to improve the environment. should be an outlet for that. Pellet burners are an We know the introduction of the new FEP obvious outlet for tree thinnings. It is important scheme is good for farmers, and Senator Carty for the health of forests that regular thinning be has talked about this. The Minister of State has carried out. It should also be an important econ- spoken about the various grants that are now omic factor in terms of getting a return from the given to part-time farmers to supplement their thinnings, creating jobs and contributing to our incomes. This is a golden opportunity for the GNP. The fact that we do not have sufficient out- farming industry and an opportunity to rethink put from thinnings and the potential for jobs need the area of agriculture from the point of view urgent consideration. which used to prevail many years ago. It is good We should be promoting hardwoods. Afforest- to see it coming back into play and to see that the ation contributes so much to absorbing carbon Minister of State has been given a significant role emissions. I understand that it saves approxi- in changing it for the farmer and industry. mately \200 million annually in respect of carbon It is terrible that we import wood because I emissions absorbed by our forests and not having love hurling. I am always talking about hurleys, to pay fines imposed under the Kyoto Protocol. particularly my team in Waterford which I love As we approach 2020 and try to reach the new to see. Yet we import this timber when we have a agreed levels of carbon emissions, afforestation golden opportunity, particularly in respect of ash must be a very important strategy in that regard. which is needed so much. There will be consider- The potential of our forests to absorb carbon able interest from now until next October, so the emissions is of considerable importance. It will be timber is needed. We have the hardwood saw of considerable importance in respect of hard- mills about which the Minister of State spoke. We woods because despite their long developmental talked about the transport aspect of it and how life, they would be very useful from that per- important it is for the economy. We can turn this spective. industry into a world industry. We have the Senator Ellis mentioned the fact that fellings potential to make it a real industry for the are taking place and are not being replaced, country. particularly by the State agency. I agree with him I wish the Minister of State well. I admire what because I have witnessed it on occasions. I sug- she is doing and will fully support her gest to the Minister of State that this needs urgent endeavours. attention. We cannot leave an eyesore or allow under productivity or no activity on the land in Senator Joe O’Reilly: I join in the general wel- question. In the context of global warming, it is come extended to the Minister of State. We almost criminal if this is the case. It does not hap- served together on an Oireachtas committee pen too often but it should be monitored. some years ago to good effect. We must be con- The climate change element is very important. cerned about the statistic that 10% of the land If we are to reach the proposed level of emissions in Ireland is under afforestation, while the EU and the European target of a 20% reduction for average tends to be in the range of 35%. Bearing 2020, it will take a combination of strategies, of in mind the food shortage and all other consider- which afforestation must be one. Afforestation ations, we should still aspire to having a greater and our forests’ contribution to recreation, our proportion of our land planted. tourism infrastructure and our quality of life We must also put more emphasis on native tree cannot be underestimated. At the risk of sound- species. We may have an over-reliance on non- ing parochial, my experience of dealing with native softwood species. These are falling in price Coillte in this regard has been positive. I found and, in some instances, are being imported more Coillte to be proactive in terms of maintaining its cheaply. We must affect something of a balance forests and making them attractive to tourism. I between hardwoods and softwoods and tilt the understand that the element of Coillte’s budget balance more in favour of hardwoods. I recognise that is devoted to the development of forests as a that softwoods produce a more immediate local resource could be looked at because there income and that they have a shorter developmen- may be the potential for more development there. tal span, which is important in terms of creating At the risk of sounding parochial, there is a an economic return. However, an emphasis on very beautiful area called Castle Lake at Bailie- hardwoods is necessary. We have traditional borough where I live. While these matters are hardwoods in Ireland which are very much part local, they have national relevance. The Dun a of our original landscape. I recommend that the Ri Forest Park is located nearby. The renowned Minister of State looks at strategies to achieve Lough Key Forest Park is located over in that. I understand that only 3% of our planted Roscommon. Castle Lake is in a very beautiful land is planted with traditional hardwoods, which setting and contains very nice forest walks. There 1025 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1026 has been considerable development there hence mercial benefits we might focus on when dis- my reference to my experience in dealing with cussing forestry in a debate such as this one. Coillte, which has done very good work there. There are a range of environmental services such However, this needs replication. There is further as fresh air, clean water, fertile soil and climate room for improvement. stability. Trees help prevent soil erosion, drought There is enormous potential for areas like and flooding and as previous speakers pointed Castle Lake in Bailieborough and Dun a Ri For- out, only 10% of our land area is tree covered est Park to be resources for a local community, even though the average in other European particularly in terms of health considerations and Union member states is approximately 30% to more free time, and to be resources that improve 35%. It is something we must consider in terms our tourism product. I invite the Minister of State of encouraging forestry but also examining its to visit the Castle Lake area in Bailieborough. It value and the returns it provides for this country is worthy of examination because it is a very in a broader way than the narrow economic way beautiful example with further potential for it is sometimes viewed. development in which more money could be Previous speakers spoke about climate change. invested. What we are doing regarding the Kyoto Protocol The IFA has made a number of recom- and the emissions reductions targets we have mendations to Mr. Malone’s inquiry. I under- agreed to is factoring carbon dioxide emissions stand it is proposing that it should not be obliga- into the economic cost-benefit analysis when we tory to reforest after the life of a forest has are examining any economic activity. It has been expired. I suggest the Minister of State takes this pointed out that trees provide a carbon sink; they recommendation on board. Farmers do not like are what we might call carbon assets. The non- the idea of committing themselves, their children timber benefits of forestry must be emphasised and their children’s children to afforestation. It is and previous speakers spoke of proposals that enough to commit to one life cycle of trees. The have been made where farmers might get finan- likelihood is that they will continue in the vast cial support in terms of the non-timber benefits majority of cases but the option needs to be there. of the forestry projects in which they engage. In A green forest payment as an extra incentive the light of the Kyoto Protocol and other commit- in the context of the expenditure that will be ments this country has made, we should examine necessary to reach our Kyoto Protocol targets that because if we do not we will end up paying needs examination. A green forest payment and fines for being in breach of the targets to which the removal of the replanting obligation would be we signed up. It is much more positive to do good incentives to develop the forestry sector. something constructive such as encouraging more I hope the Minister of State will accept my invi- forestry with all of the other environmental and tation to Castle Lake in Bailieborough to look at recreational benefits to which people have it as a practical example of what has already been referred. Trees have an aesthetic value and con- achieved by Coillte. It is a resource that is greatly tribute to landscape character and improving the used by the local community and is attracting vis- quality of all our lives. I hope the Minister might itors. It has so much potential for further take that broader approach to developing for- development. That could be the pilot study in estry in this country than has been taken to date. which the Minister of State could invest heavily I refer to a study the Minister of State’s and from which she could extrapolate nationally. Department commissioned and that yielded interesting information. A national forestry Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: I welcome the Mini- inventory was carried out by her Department and ster of State, Deputy Wallace, to the House. I it involved a detailed field survey of Ireland’s for- congratulate her on her new portfolio and wish ests to assess their composition and also the con- her well with it. I have no doubt she has various dition of the entire national forest estate, both ideas on the way she would like that portfolio to public and private. It established that there are develop and change. Perhaps I could be so bold 2.4 billion trees growing in forests in the Republic as to make some suggestions to her. and that they contain 30 million tonnes of carbon The Green Party has long been interested in assets, which is considerable. My county of the issue of forestry and we now find ourselves a Wicklow emerged as the county with the highest party of Government along with the Minister’s percentage of forest cover, at 18%, while Cork party. We have made several commitments in the had the largest forest area with 77,700 hectares. programme for Government, which I will men- The inventory took three years to complete and tion, that I believe will be positive in the area of established that 10% of the State’s total land area forestry, but in a general way I hope the Minister is under forest. It found also that 57% of the for- might examine the area of forestry and the nar- ests in the State are now in public ownership row commercial focus that has been brought to while 43% are held privately. Interestingly, of the bear on forestry in recent years and begin to private forests, 30% were grant aided and 13% change that somewhat. were held in other ways. Previous speakers pointed out that there are The survey also found that almost two thirds of many other benefits and dividends from forestry the national forests are under 20 years old, which that are not just the narrow economic and com- is worrying and suggests that the newer planted 1027 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1028

[Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca.] estry plantations could make a significant contri- forests are part of the shorter-term commercial bution to biodiversity if they were properly forestry as opposed to the longer-term approach planned but, if not, would have a negative effect. to forestry mentioned by previous speakers that The study also found that each local authority involve the planting of broadleaf trees, preferably should establish ecological advisory units. It native ones, and forestry that will be longer-term pointed out that in the past local authorities have in its duration and lifespan than the short rotation not had the in-house technical expertise available commercial forestry such as the Sitka spruce and to comment on conservation issues pertaining to other commercial forestry. grant applications, particularly forestry related The inventory also gave a breakdown of the conservation issues. However, the appointment of type of trees that are being grown and established heritage officers has begun to remedy that and pointed out that 25% of the national forests deficiency and the establishment of ecology units are broadleaf and the remainder, 75%, are coni- would rectify the situation. fer tree species. It established also that more than Another far-reaching recommendation of the 20% of the afforested area was planted with report was that semi-natural habitats should not native tree species and one quarter of the forest be afforested unless there were mitigating circum- stands had three or more tree species present. Of stances. It recommended that, where possible, major importance was the discovery that there improved grassland or arable land should be used were no significant threats to the health and for afforestation instead of semi-natural habitats, vitality of the forests, which was a welcome especially in landscapes that were dominated by finding. intensive farming. In the programme for Government we have I will put to the Minister of State one or two committed jointly to promoting a diverse forestry of the objectives from the Green Party’s mani- culture with an emphasis on native trees, and the festo in the area of forestry, which ties in with Minister of State indicated her intentions in the the objectives we have agreed in the area of increasing the supply of native trees. We 4 o’clock programme for Government. The are also committed to ensuring forestry continues Forestry Act 1988 should be to give an important income stream to farmers reviewed to restructure Coillte, so that it gives through the forest premium scheme that has been equal consideration to the social, recreational and substantially increased under the partnership pro- environmental objectives necessary for a sus- cess. We have agreed to develop new markets for tainable forestry programme. An immediate thinning linked to the increased need for renew- restructuring programme of existing plantations able energy sources. We have agreed also to pro- should be implemented to address the problems mote forestry plantation to increase biomass pro- apparent after a policy of planting non-native, duction demand in the building and fuel markets fast-growing conifer monocultures and a research and to provide carbon sinks to combat climate project should be set up to identify the range of change. We have agreed also to review the forest broad leaf species with economic potential. environmental payment schemes pilot, which is under way, with a view to a full roll-out in the Senator Denis O’Donovan: “Cad a dhe´anfai- years ahead, and to reviewing the forest premium mid feasta gan adhmaid? Ta´ deireadh na gcoillte levels and ensuring a minimum of 30% broadleaf ar la´r?” This is true in contemporary Ireland. Our will be planted annually by 2012. I hope that philosophy in the 1930s was one more cow, one when this target for broadleaf is being achieved more sow and one more acre under the plough we emphasise the importance of native broadleaf but that has changed over the decades. This is a and not just broadleaf generally. We have agreed different Ireland under the EU. I welcome the to initiate a review of the Forestry Acts and prog- Minister of State, Deputy Wallace, with whom I rammes to reflect sustainable, social and environ- had many dealings in her former portfolios. I mental objectives. That is a welcome objective. have happy memories of her visiting west Cork An important report was drawn up recently of with a different brief. She acquitted herself well which I would like to remind the Minister of and people still talk of her visits to CoAction State. I understand she is aware of its existence. Bantry. It was the joint COFORD-EPA report, Biodiv- In Ireland we have a sad record on the plan- ersity in Irish Plantation Forests, which made 57 tation of forestry compared to Europe as a whole. recommendations, including a call for the estab- I am delighted with the Government’s initiatives lishment of a biological record centre. Some of to support afforestation. As a farmer’s son, I have those actions would involve the Department of been an advocate of the REPS scheme for years my colleague, the Minister, Deputy John and have encouraged people to get involved in Gormley, but I hope there would be close synergy REPS 1 to 4. A significant amount of farmers between the Minister’s Department and that of work in an environmentally friendly way. They the Minister, Deputy Gormley, in terms of com- are encouraged to do it and it is good for areas plying with some of those recommendations. such as the Sheep’s Head, the Mizen Peninsula The bioforest project, which was one of the and the Beara Peninsula where there is a mixture largest undertakings on biodiversity research con- of tourism, scenic routes and afforestation. In ducted in Ireland, concluded that in general for- areas such as Glengarrif there is a natural wood 1029 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1030 where Coillte has done much good work. I am some lowland can grow up to eight hectares and encouraged by the announcement of extra grant receive grant aid assistance. Under the FEPS pre- aid to farmers. mium, it is payable in addition to the existing I do not wish to rehash the points already afforestation scheme. In addition to grants and made. For someone who was involved in setting premia, a farmer planting eight hectares or 20 up the Sheep’s Head way, a renowned walkway acres for the duration of FEPS can earn an on the peninsula, it is wonderful that \4 million annual tax free forestry premium of up to \6,000 has been provided by the Minister for Com- without affecting his or her single payment. It is a munity, Gaeltacht and Rural Affairs. The same wonderful suggestion that should be promulgated marked walkways exist in Beara and Kerry. more. Many farmers in remote areas of Ireland I support developing forests, as well as the may not be aware of this. I appeal to the IFA, an point made by Senator de Bu´ rca on greater organisation for which I have great respect, to use balance. We had a tendency to plant conifers and promulgate these schemes to add a sense of rather than our native deciduous trees 20 or 30 security to subsistence farmers. These are not years ago. I am glad to see our native types commercial farmers, they have a place in rural encouraged. We had wonderful oak forests Ireland and I love to see them supported. I sup- before my time and before the history of this port the initiatives of the Minister of State and State. We must examine what is native to Ireland. wish her well. I am not anti-connifer but it is a Scandinavian breed of timber. Minister of State at the Department of Agri- Only 20% of the dairy farmers who farmed culture, Fisheries and Food (Deputy Mary when I was a child are left today in places like Wallace): I thank Senators for their contri- west Cork. Dairy farming has become more butions. The use of statements by the Upper intense and the farmer with 15 cows is no longer House of the Oireachtas provides an opportunity at the races. Such farmers are dying out. These to outline the contribution of forestry and the farmers are engaged in REPS, which is the type reasons it is vital to sustain the industry in the of support needed to encourage people to remain future by encouraging new planting now. All on the land. Afforestation has great potential in Senators outlined the importance of forestry and creating jobs. Not before time there is a tendency the new planting story. Some made suggestions in the construction industry to build a type of on what we should do. If I had addressed this house that is environmentally friendly, with less House three years ago, I could have pointed out wasted on heating. I recently examined the possi- that one of the key things people were saying at bility of a wood chip burner for the house in that time was that much of the land that was not which I live. These are very efficient compared to available for food production, such as mountain the days of the huge coal fires. We have an obli- land, was planted and that the next step was to gation to the next generation to ensure we have make it attractive for the farmers in the rural an environmentally friendly way of dealing with environment protection scheme by including for- issues. estry on the REPS land. Many speakers, partic- Afforestation has a significant role to play in ularly Senator Carty, referred to the changes in this. I am pleased to see the Minister of State take the REPS. Last year we announced FEPS as a a proactive approach to encourage afforestation pilot scheme and it made a huge difference in in a sensible manner. We do not wish to destroy encouraging REPS farmers to get involved in for- our landscape. I was a councillor for nearly 20 estry. One of the key messages that should be years and received complaints about country conveyed from this debate is the value to the roads near Gougane Barra, the Borlin Valley and farmer of planting forestry, especially the REPS the Ballydehob area where the harvesting of trees farmer. damaged roads. This matter has been resolved Initially, the farmer or landowner could calcu- due to an arrangement between local authorities late that the cost of planting was 100% covered and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and and that there was a premium of \550 or \570 Food that ensures that roads are repaired after per hectare for 20 years. However, that was com- huge trailers transport logs to the timber pro- peting with the REPS payments for environmen- cessing plants. tal farming. That is the reason we introduced the In the next 20 years I wish to see greater inten- FEPS pilot scheme last year and rolled it out this sity of afforestation. With the concept of setaside, year. The extra \200 top-up is what makes it there are arguments that with much of world really attractive for REPS farmers in 2008 to con- grain being used for biofuels we may have to row sider new planting. I had the pleasure this week back and decide that land should not lie idle of visiting a farm in County Meath. The farmer is because of some EU regulation. We may be going into forestry for the first time. This farmer forced to use it to grow wheat or barley. There is was involved in cattle and sheep farming as well more land than ever in my lifetime available for as holding down a part-time job. He was having afforestation. This is due to the changing patterns difficulty maintaining his farm. He has decided to of farming. This can be handled in a sensible way. plant 50% of his farm and the key advantage for What I like about the proposals is that, under him is that he will keep his single farm payment FEPS, a small farmer with some mountain and and get the additional money from forestry. 1031 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1032

[Deputy Mary Wallace.] Heritage and Local Government and if a real Senator Ellis made an important point about environmental issue arises, we will work together the income flow through the years from forestry. on it but if it is not, we must examine ways of In the case of the farmer I mentioned, for the planting the land. An example that arose last year next 20 years he will receive the original planting was with regard to the hen harrier. We discussed grant, the forestry premium and FEPS for five this extensively and found a regime within which years as tax-free income in addition to his single planting could take place in hen harrier areas. It farm payment. Furthermore, the farmer does not is important for the future that we can plant land just thin on the fifteenth year but can thin every where possible. five years thereafter until clear-fell. There is an Senator Bradford and Senator Ormonde income from thinnings. Ten years ago that described forestry as a win-win enterprise. I am income was not as good as it is today. Owing to delighted to be the Minister with responsibility wood energy and the use of wood pellets and for forestry. It is a fabulous story and an area wood chips, thinnings are now a real source of where we can make a real difference. The timber income for farmers. There are 21,000 hectares of is needed in the timber industry while forestry is forestry available now for thinning on land good for recreation and the environment. From planted 15 or 20 years ago. Farmers should thin the farmer’s point of view it offers a good income those forests now and avail of the income from and forestry is needed for wood energy. There the wood energy market. are many reasons to promote it. There are gaps At least four speakers, including Senators Ellis, in the market for the product and those gaps, if Carty and O’Reilly, raised the issue of Coillte. they do nothing else, emphasise the need for They mentioned the positives and negatives of new planting. the agency and the State planting programme. On Senator O’Reilly referred to native hardwoods the positive side they mentioned the recreational and softwoods and Senator Bradford mentioned issue and the importance of recreation. On the the gaps in the market for them. Senator negative side they mentioned the issue of Bradford said my opening statement was full of replanting and the protection of roads. These are statistics but I hope they were useful. I will offer important matters. If Senators are aware of any some further statistics now which I hope will also examples where Coillte has left land for longer be useful. It is important to see where we are than 12 months without replanting it, we would going. The figures show why forestry and the tim- like to know about it. There is an obligation to ber industry is important. The softwood market replant the land. We talk to Coillte regularly in Ireland, which provides trusses, floorboards about the protection of the county roads. The and skirting, grew a great deal as more houses roads element in which we are involved is funding were built. In 1995, Ireland was using 307,000 cu. and grants for forest roads so the timber can be m. of softwood while in 2006 it used 825,000 cu. taken out of the forests. We do not wish to see m. However, 60% of that wood was imported. the local authority roads abused. We certainly are Senator Bradford spoke about importing wood anxious to know more about the replanting when we should provide it from our forests. The concerns. hardwood market is of greater concern in many I was delighted to hear Senator de Bu´ rca make ways. In 2006, the sawn hardwood market in substantial references to the national forestry Ireland used 3,435 cu. m. and 95% of that was inventory. We published this document before imported. Those bald statistics demonstrate why Christmas. It is a two-year survey of forestry in forestry is so important. Ireland and an important work. I am delighted We are planting an average of 7,000 hectares the Senator took the trouble to read it in such per annum but I agree with Senator Ryan that detail and to quote from it. It is an important stat- we must plant more. That is the reason we are istical document which tells us exactly what the providing so many incentives for planting. situation is and what must be done. The Senator However, what are we clear-felling? We are drew some important statistics from it. She also clear-felling 8,000 hectares per annum. The wood referred to the importance of working closely products sector provides direct employment for with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage 6,500 people. and Local Government, Deputy Gormley. It is If we are clear-felling 8,000 hectares we need important and, in fact, I and my officials are due to be planting more than that. That is one of the to have a meeting with the Minister soon. For- reasons I am so pleased we are having this debate estry is an important issue for the environment. because we were able to highlight the benefits Senator Ellis also raised environmental issues. which exist today for farmers considering getting It is important we do the right thing for the involved in forestry. If there are any gaps in what environment but it is also important to have a the Department is doing, we are glad to hear proactive approach to planting new forestry. In from Members about them. various parts of the country where there is acid Some Members referred to the report the sensitive land people are concerned they are Department is undertaking under Mr. John being refused the opportunity of planting on their Malone, the former Secretary General of the land for environmental reasons. We are working Department. Before Christmas we asked Mr. closely with the Department of the Environment, Malone to undertake this report and we expect 1033 Forestry Issues: 20 February 2008. Statements 1034 him to come to us shortly with his findings. Some messages we would send from today’s debate. I Members referred to the IFA document that was was fortunate to visit a research site in Wicklow submitted to the report and to the many others where one could see the difference. There was who also made submissions. We are looking for- one forest which had been regularly thinned and ward to the report we are always open to ideas. there was another where the gate had been We are in a business where ideas are important. closed. They were next to each other. In the first In this regard we are only too glad to give strong there were tall trees full of good solid timber consideration to ideas that were brought up by which was wonderful to look at. In the second Senators during this debate. there were small, bushy trees. They were both Senator Bradford also raised the fact that much planted on the same day but without thinning, the of the agricultural land used for forestry was not trees in one were not allowed grow. The impact suitable for food production. From our point of upon the timber of the trees not allowed grow view, it is important to make mountainous land was considerable. Today it is worthwhile because attractive to the REPS farmers, and also the of the income the farmer could get from the other lands that are available for forestry. thinnings. I would fully encourage biomass and the Senator Ryan made an important point regard- mainly wood industry of pellets and chips. I agree ing vigilance on imports with which I agree. Our with Senator Bradford that the incentives are plant imports are subject to EU law, as is the good and that we needed to go a little further entire timber store. I agree all of that is with the creation of FEPS. We are always important. The Senator also referred to the fact interested in looking at what more can be done. that the management, including the thinnings, Senator Carty made a point about FEPS. As he must be done on a professional basis. I agree is from Mayo, I must tell him we made big with that. changes to FEPS following many calls, partic- A number of Senators referred to the 10% ularly from people in Mayo, on the provision cover and I agree with their call that it should be regarding the minimum of eight hectares. We greater. My Department is providing the incen- brought that minimum down to five hectares with tives to encourage more farmers to plant. the view to encouraging smaller farmers. I should Senator de Bu´ rca referred to the situation point out that FEPS has been such a success story regarding narrow commercial forestry. While we for us in the pilot that we also made changes at are focusing on the importance of new planting, the bigger end to allow farmers access to the pay- we are not ignoring the important issue of the ment of \200. The changes we made have been environmental and other benefits. I agree with encouraging. the Senator that the policy must be science based. Senator Carty referred to broad leaf, as did COFORD, as an agency of my Department, is Senator de Bu´ rca and others. It benefits from the involved in the research area. The more research higher rates of premium. We have reached the we can do, the greater the benefit to those 30% level in terms of planting of broad leaf, involved in forestry and also to those involved in which was the balance in the mix referred to by the environment, including the Minister for the Senator O’Donovan and others. Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Some Senators commented on the roads. I Deputy Gormley. We can work together on a agree with the points made regarding the protec- science-based approach and are supportive of it. tion of county roads. I also agree with the point I dealt with the point Senator O’Donovan raised made on the importance of replanting from clear about broad leaf, the 30% being achieved and its felling. Senator de Bu´ rca and others asked about inclusion in the programme for Government. the replanting obligation in that regard. It is an On the question of COFORD and the EPA issue we are looking at in the present review of report, a biological record centre was set up in the legislation. We are not here concerned with Waterford two years ago. For the information of the removal but the relaxation of the planting Senators, the forest service has full-time ecol- obligation. ogists and archaeologists, which is an important I thank the Senators, including Senators area for us to address. O’Reilly and de Bu´ rca, who referred to tourism If I have not answered any questions important recreation, which is important. The neighbour to Senators, I ask them to let me know. I hope I wood scheme and the visit to the forest are have covered everything. I have taken substantial important but our main focus this year is on new notes and we will consider the ideas the Senators planting. There will be no forestry for our grand- came up with during the debate. The forestry children if there is no new planting today. The section of the Department is always open to ideas reason we are able to enjoy the benefits of for- because it is a win-win situation for the economy, estry from an environmental and recreational for the farmer who gets involved in it and for the point of view is because our ancestors planted in environment. On those three grounds alone, we days gone by. Senators also referred to the must be open to ideas in the future. I thank the importance of forestry in the context of climate Senators for holding this debate and for being so change and I agree with the views expressed. supportive of forestry. We should encourage Regular thinning of the forestry was mentioned farmers to be aware of the new incentives to by many Senators. It is one of the important plant, especially the REPS farmers. We would 1035 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1036

[Deputy Mary Wallace.] to deny operations to young sick children on the ask farmers to work with us in using the cash that basis of costs. The Minister for Education and we are now providing to encourage them take up Science, Deputy , announced in the forestry. We would ask them to work with us, as Da´il today that she intends to cut back on the farmer in County Meath did this week. He is devolved grants to schools. She has already cut retaining his entire single farm payment, planting summer works projects and schools are now half his land and getting all of the incentives. being asked to pay for their water. This is a dra- I also ask those who planted 15 or 20 years ago matic change in society in a short time. The to work with us now in terms of thinning those Government already is forcing the people to pay forests. It is in farmers’ interest to do so and it is for its mistakes. also important from the point of view of both Let us look at this from the economic point of wood energy and the future of timber. view. What do we expect from our economy? We My message to the House is that this is a solid, want an efficient public sector and a competitive win-win issue. I thank Senators for their contri- cost base, but there are problems in both these butions to this debate. areas that are not being dealt with. Given that we rely heavily on foreign direct investment, we need Sitting suspended at 4.30 p.m. and resumed at an open and transparent democracy to prevent 5 p.m. corruption which has a negative effect on how we are seen by people outside the country. We also Economic Outlook: Motion. need an infrastructure that allows our economy Senator : I move: to change quickly and respond to growth, and a workforce with the necessary skills, training and That Seanad E´ ireann, in light of the chang- education. ing economic outlook of our economy, calls on One area in which the Government is falling the Government: down particularly badly is in the provision of — to accelerate the reforms of the sectors services under its control. Energy, transport and of our economy under its control and to water charges have increased. It is not only water dramatically improve the productivity charges for schools that have increased. Water and competitiveness of Government charges for businesses increase constantly. Rates provided services; and waste costs are also increasing and these costs are hitting businesses hard. Now that construction — to respect the role of the Oireachtas, as has decreased significantly, levies for county the legitimate forum of decision making councils will decrease. The knock-on effect of this for the people of Ireland, by fully failure by Government to contain costs is that informing the Oireachtas on the local authorities will have to increase their rates, national pay talks in a timely fashion; water and, possibly, waste charges in the coming — to ensure that vital infrastructure is years. This is a result of the failure to deliver delivered on time and gives value for efficient local and Government services, despite money to the taxpayers of Ireland; and the promises made so often. The new buzz words are “the green agenda”. — to ensure that the necessary funding for This agenda is no more than double taxing or a all levels of the educational system, means of increasing taxes. The Green Party must research and development, and IT wake up to what is happening in our economy development is provided so that we can and start bringing forward proposals that will deliver the knowledge-based society benefit rather than damage the economy. that Ireland must become in the future. Competitiveness is a significant issue. It has There is no doubt our economy is in good shape been ignored by the Government but will creep overall. It is no thanks to Government policy that up on it very quickly. Competitiveness in the it has remained in such good shape over recent private sector has increased by 46% in recent years, but rather to the hard work and diligence years but only by 7% in the public sector. The of the people who have made great sacrifices over public sector has grown dramatically in recent the past 15 years to deliver what has become years and makes up 20% of our economy. If we known as the Celtic tiger. Things are changing, continue to have poor competitiveness and pro- however, and the situation is no longer the same. ductivity in Government services and if signifi- We hear constantly in the media that if we do not cant costs continue to be involved, this will spell take control of our economic problems, we will disaster for our economy in the next few years, have to make difficult decisions later. We are especially if we cannot maintain the massive already making them. In some respects Fianna growth that has been very much driven by the Fa´il has taken over the role of the Progressive private sector. If we do not keep up that level of Democrats and has become quite a tough right- growth, we will run into major problems. This is wing part of Government. the warning the European Union tried to give the The tough decisions being made now are ones Government this morning. It needs to wake up to that hurt the poor, the sick and the elderly. For what will happen to our economy if it is not example, the Health Service Executive is trying careful. 1037 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1038

Infrastructure is incredibly important to the industry where they were well paid. They are the economy but we are not investing enough in first to lose their jobs in the slowdown happening transport, roads, rail and ports. Our broadband is in the construction sector. Rather than the a standing joke internationally. For a country that Government coming up with more harebrained prides itself on being an open, fast-moving econ- ideas, which is what it has been doing in recent omy that is in touch with what is happening years, we must make sure we get good value for around the world, broadband roll-out has failed money from retraining these young men in order miserably and is a national disgrace. that they can continue to make a valuable contri- The extent to which house owners have been bution to our society. screwed by the Government will become more We have heard a lot of talk recently, from the apparent at the end of the year when we see the Taoiseach down, stating that the problems with huge drop in income from the construction indus- our economy are a result of the challenging global try. What is happening in the construction indus- climate. That can be described only as poppycock try is a lesson for the Minister for Finance, because the problems in our society can be sorted Deputy Cowen. Once builders realised they no only out by us. Crying into our glasses and blam- longer could sell their houses at inflated costs, ing what is happening in America and elsewhere they slashed their prices. They tried first to use is of no benefit to the people of this country. The the usual gimmicks of new kitchens, cars and problems in our economy are made by this holiday vouchers, but when they realised these Government and its policies and we want the would not work, they slashed their costs and Government to come up with innovative ideas to brought them back to 2005 price levels. In leaner sort them out. times we need fewer gimmicks and more value Last May, Fianna Fa´il, through the Minister, for money. Deputy , said there was nothing to The Government needs to wake up to the need fear regarding the Irish economy because the for value for money in all the services for which party would ensure continued growth in our Government is responsible. Ireland has been economy and the maintenance of a positive econ- lauded on its low unemployment rate of just omic outlook. Unfortunately, we have seen with under 5% and I accept this is low by European the Taoiseach’s amazing, technicolour rainbow standards. We must ask whether we are getting Government, that the dazzle is going very value for money from the retraining and reskil- quickly. Now we are told it is the global economy ling of our workforce and from the education that is causing the mess, but it clearly is not. Many programmes for workers. There is concern that of these problems have been made at home and significant sums may be going to waste in this are a result of a failure to deliver on the good regard. times. Broadband is a clear example in this I was very disappointed by the Government’s regard, but the same poor value for money has efforts to dismantle the community employment happened in the areas of road and railway infra- schemes. These schemes are a social scheme and structure. We have been talking about rede- do not exist to provide an educated workforce. veloping our ports for the past ten years and the They have proved excellent where they have failure to do so could put us at a severe disadvan- been set up and allowed to operate properly. If tage in the next ten years. The Government is we consider many of the FA´ S training schemes simply too slow in making vital decisions. and courses, however, we must question the value The backlash for the Government will prob- for money obtained from those. While the ably come from the unsheltered section of our Comptroller and Auditor General should exam- economy, where the concept of a job for life ine this area, Ministers should stop deluding never existed. Many people do not yet realise themselves and consider whether we get value for how much of a raw deal they have got in the past money with regard to training. and will get in the future, when the economic I have noticed there appears to be a significant situation gets much more difficult. When people number of people going on permanent or tempor- start losing their jobs, there will be grave prob- ary illness related disability payments rather than lems because many of them are highly indebted. saying they are unable to attend work. Has there This is something for which we must make been a significant increase in the cost of providing allowances. social welfare payments? If there is such a signifi- In 1983, when this country was considered to cant increase, this will have a knock-on effect in be in a serious financial predicament, our debt future years when there is less money and scope was basically the debt of the State. The Govern- for the Government to spend money on these ment had done most of the borrowing. Today this services. If there is an issue with why people country is still in as much debt as it was in 1983, cannot work, we need to investigate it more. but most of the debt is personal. The ordinary The Government must look at the cost of men and women in the street are now responsible reskilling and retraining people for new jobs, for the debt. We must make allowances for that especially people leaving the construction sector. in the context of the future of the economy. We Unfortunately, too many young men did not go must ensure that people do not become bankrupt, on to college or to learn a trade or skill when they lose their homes or suffer disadvantage in any left school but went straight into the construction way because of the enormous level of indebted- 1039 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1040

[Senator Liam Twomey.] I wish to focus on public sector reform and the ness. It is also important that we look after the position of our education system, particularly people who are outside the Government’s with reference to lifelong learning and the need responsibility. The Government is responsible for to upskill our workforce. On the latter point, I pensions and pay rates. The current pay talks have heard much discussion in recent months on should be discussed in detail in this House and the need to upskill workers in our economy. FA´ S not negotiated in private in Dublin Castle. published a report in 2007 on the skills status of We have a responsibility to the people who our workforce. The centrepiece of that report was have made the Celtic tiger what it is today. We the fact that between 500,000 and 700,000 must ensure they are not disadvantaged by any people’s skills would have to be completely Government decisions made in the next two or upgraded in order to ensure they would be able three years, especially in the context of the cut- to gain employment, become prosperous and con- backs being made in the areas of health and edu- tribute to the economy. It is almost a badge of cation, as well as in terms of the way we deal with pride for the Government that it managed to crime and the infrastructure in our economy. identify that such a large group of people needs retraining. However, it should have asked some Senator Paschal Donohoe: I am pleased to years ago what it should do to ensure such people second the motion. I will elaborate on some of did not actually exist, that there were not hun- the points made by Senator Twomey and respond dreds of thousands of people within our economy to the Government’s amendment to the motion. in need of urgent retraining and upskilling. Now I concur with the analysis offered by Senator that the economic outlook has deteriorated, that Twomey regarding the origins of our economic enormous amount of work must be done. success. In the past number of years, we have That such retraining and upskilling has not completely opened up our borders, society and taken place represents a lamentable failure on the economy to the global economy. This opening up part of the Government. The reasons for the need process coincided with an economic miracle that for such upskilling are several. In the past few was taking place. The entire global economy, pri- years, many people entered the workforce who marily led by the United States of America, had not completed second level education. The experienced one of its strongest periods ever, last OECD report showed that 38% of our work- with global economic growth, low inflation, low force did not have secondary education. To find unemployment and rising productivity. During ourselves, at the end of a period when there was that period, Ireland was in a very good position enormous growth in Exchequer funds, coupled and was able to ride the crest of a wave. The with an enormous increase in funding for edu- opening up of our borders and society, to cation, in a position where four out of ten coincide with this global phenomenon, ensured workers do not have a leaving certificate, is a dis- we benefitted from it and our economy grew. grace. The Government and the economy will During that time, however, we should have have to deal with the consequences of that in the ensured that when the favourable economic coming years. environment changed, we would be still in a good When one examines the other economies position. We would then be able to ride the crest which are well set up to deal with the global econ- of less fortunate waves and ensure our society omic downturn, one of the things they have in and workers would be protected against a slowing common is the fact that, for at least the last dec- down of the global economic growth we have ade, they have invested in preschool education. enjoyed. That this did not occur is why Fine Gael Thus, when their students exit the education tabled this motion this evening. system, their minds will have been influenced at If one looks at the United States of America the earliest possible stage, ensuring they have the and the United Kingdom, neither economy is capacity to learn more skills and languages and be technically in recession. Both economies are able to adapt to a very rigorous and demanding experiencing an economic slowdown but their competitive environment. The fact that, after ten Governments are working to correct this and to years of a Fianna Fa´il led Government and many re-stimulate their economies. In Ireland however, years of the Celtic tiger, we do not have a pre- we are already making cutbacks, even though we school system in place to ensure our workforce is are only at the beginning of a change in the econ- equipped to deal with the challenges of a rapidly omic environment. We can see the first signs of changing, competitive economic environment, is change and potentially stormy weather in the entirely the fault of the Government. global environment and already we are making The issue of public service reform is mentioned cutbacks in HSE expenditure, summer works in the amendment. Every time we get into a dis- schemes, school building programmes and so cussion such as this, there is a significant debate forth. This is happening because the Government on the additional amounts being spent or people completely failed to lay the foundations for future being employed. However, we must consider growth. It failed to ensure that when things were what we are getting in return. The Minister for not going so well in the wider world, we would Finance has made two efforts in this respect, both be in a position to protect our economy and those of which ended in complete failure. The expendi- working in it. ture review initiative scheme was announced in 1041 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1042

2002-03 and considered large areas of capital and of GNP on capital projects, to address- current expenditure to determine what value for ing infrastructure needs; and money and outputs were being delivered, but — welcomes the Government’s firm com- none of the reports from the scheme have been mitment to continued support for the published. The scheme’s replacement prog- development, enhancement and mod- ramme, the value for money scheme, produced 93 ernisation of Ireland’s education sector reports seeking to identify how millions of euro and Ireland’s Science, Technology and of taxpayers’ money was being spent and what Innovation sector. was being achieved in return. Some 66 of the reports were due to be published by the end of I welcome the opportunity to make a contri- 2007, of which only one third has been published. bution to this debate, in respect of which we Given that we will ask people working in the should express our gratitude to the Fine Gael private sector and the non-sheltered economy to group for using its Private Members’ time to deal work harder and to make better decisions on how with issues important to the economy. Given the to spend their money, the Government’s singular current environment, it is imperative that we visit failure to publish the reports, to follow through this subject on an ongoing basis so that the House on any of the expenditure review initiatives it has can contribute its opinions to the Government discussed or to ensure that value for money and through the Minister or Minister of State in outputs are being delivered is a legacy, the con- attendance in a meaningful way. sequences of which will become apparent in com- Like many economies, the Irish economy is fac- ing years. For this reason, the motion we are pro- ing its most difficult environment for some time, posing is timely. If many of the amendment’s with both domestic and external headwinds likely provisions had been carried out in the past dec- to restrain the pace of economic expansion in the ade, we would be better placed to deal with the short term. We all know this; it has been acknow- challenges of a more threatening global ledged on the other side of the House that we environment. have come out of a period of unprecedented growth, the foundations of which were laid in the Senator Marc MacSharry: I move amendment mid-1980s and from which we have reaped the No. 1: benefits since. A series of challenges have presented themselves primarily due to external To delete all words after “Seanad E´ ireann” factors, particularly the credit crunch, the sub- and substitute the following: prime issue in the United States, the dollar — welcomes the Government’s firm com- situation in terms of the competitiveness of our mitment to position the economy for exports and a number of other matters. sustainable development over the years While new housing output has been ahead, while adapting to the reality of domestically forecasted to be approximately more moderate growth in the future; 55,000 — it could be less — compared to 80,000 last year, it is clear that the demand for housing — notes the progress to date on public sec- remains strong. Rents are rising by approximately tor reform and welcomes the Govern- 11% per year. The output is likely to stabilise at ment’s strong commitment to pro- equilibrium levels once confidence is restored. gressing public sector reform; Speaking as a practising member of the auction- — notes the Government’s objective in eering industry, there has been a significant entering talks on a second pay agree- increase in the number of inquiries since ment under Towards 2016 of achieving Christmas compared to the October-November a sustainable pay deal compatible with period of last year. In itself, this is an indication improving competitiveness and pro- of an element of confidence returning following ductivity and the Government’s inten- the budgetary measures by the Minister for Fin- tion of fully informing the Oireachtas as ance and a growth in confidence in general terms. appropriate about progress in this The external environment is more challenging. regard; For example, growth is set to moderate in our two major export economies, the UK and the US. — commends the Government for the pro- The exchange rate has appreciated and, notwith- gress made in enhancing the delivery of standing some improvements in recent weeks, infrastructure on time and on budget conditions in the financial markets have not yet and the measures put in place by the normalised. GNP and GDP growth of 2.8% and Government to speed up the delivery of 3%, respectively, is expected this year. The fun- vital strategic infrastructure; damentals of the Irish economy remain strong, — welcomes the Government’s firm com- which will help to absorb the housing and exter- mitment, as set out in the National nal shocks in our medium-term prospects. We Development Plan (2007-2013) and as have a dynamic and well-educated labour force, underpinned by the provision in the as mentioned by Senator Donohoe, but we need Exchequer multi-annual capital envel- to upskill and to keep this matter under review. ope to spend an annual average of 6% With the level of ongoing and committed 1043 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1044

[Senator Marc MacSharry.] Spain stated: “The essential message is that Government investment in education — the Ireland is on a transition to lower growth and that Minister of State will go into more detail — our there has been a deterioration in public finances”. markets are flexible and allow us to respond The report did not state this. Instead, it stated: efficiently to adverse developments. We have a “Ireland is facing challenges in its transition to a pro-business outward-looking society and our period of lower but more sustainable economic public finances remain sound, with one of the growth” and the “economy is slowing down, but lowest levels of debt in the euro area. The tax the growth prospects remain good and well above burden on labour and capital is low. the euro area and EU averages”. In the past 18 Notwithstanding recent negative devel- months, it has been grossly irresponsible of many opments, there are substantial grounds for opti- sectors in the media to contribute in this way to mism. Domestic demand could not sustain overall the slow-down of the economy. The fact remains GDP growth in the long term and we are wit- there will be growth of between 2% and 3% in nessing a rebalancing towards more sustainable our economy this year and this would be the envy export-led growth. A renewed emphasis on of most economies in the eurozone and the US. improving competitiveness is required to ensure They would love to be in such a situation. rebalancing is achieved efficiently. In this regard, Mr. Stuart Draper, an economist, attacked the the next phase of the partnership negotiations is media some months ago, making the point that critical and expectations must be in line with pro- instead of always focusing on the negative, ductivity growth. We cannot expect unreasonable greater responsibility is needed. Despite the increases above increases in productivity. I would changed economic environment and the associ- appeal to the social partners when negotiations ated challenges we have a good product. Since begin in April or May to be cognisant of this the mid-1980s Fianna Fa´il-led Governments, and matter, which they will. They will also be mature the country as a whole, have excelled in rising and realistic in their expectations in light of our to challenges and showing the ability to adapt, changed economic environment and the fact that improvise and overcome. I believe this Govern- we must be prudent in our outlook. ment, with the Taoiseach, Deputy , That the economy displayed considerable at the helm and under the stewardship of the resilience in the global ICT shock in the early Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Cowen, will part of the decade is further ground for confi- rise to the challenges of today. Prudence, with the dence in our ability to overcome challenges. The support of modest borrowing, is important with performance of service exports in recent years is regard to our capital programme and all aspects encouraging, with double digit growth in the past of our infrastructure. I believe we will continue five years. World Trade Organisation data show to progress as we have in the past two decades. that Ireland is the fifth largest exporter of com- mercial services. We want the economy to go in Senator Shane Ross: I have supported the the direction of high value-added tradeable Government’s economic policy in almost every services, which are high revenue, such as finan- debate for some years. Not only have I spoken in cial, business and computer services. favour of its policy, I have voted with the Govern- Fiscal policy pays a key role in terms of provid- ment in this House, although I acknowledge that ing support for the economy. This year, current this is not of great significance. After a long spending will rise by approximately 8% whereas period of support for what has happened under revenue will increase by just 3.5%. The package various Ministers for Finance I am now beginning of measures in the budget, on which we had a to change my mind. Much of what Senator debate, is prudent while maintaining investment MacSharry said was true. This has been a difficult in our capital programmes, which I hope will sup- time for Fine Gael and the Labour Party to be port momentum in the economy and ensure that in Opposition on an issue such as the economy the infrastructure and foundation for the future because it has been an unprecedented success and are successful. criticising its management is politically foolish, Notwithstanding the various matters the Mini- although they indulged in this from time to time ster of State will mention in respect of the amend- with no profit. ment — pay in the next round of partnership I think this motion is timely because while the talks, the national development plan and our Government side of the House is correct that the investment in education — I wish to make a management of the economy has been strong, number of points regarding the effects of talking deft and beneficial to the country, what was said down one’s economy. I have been greatly both- today was smug and very aspirational. An extra- ered by this and the contributions of people with ordinary complacency has sunk into the body an economist’s education but who could not quite politic, those running the economy, the Depart- hack it as economists and, subsequently, turned ment of Finance and others. They feel that some- to the media. At the beginning of the week, we how, because we were successful when times were expected a report from the European Com- good, our economic success will extend for mission on the state of Ireland’s economy. RTE’s another five or ten years. I do not feel this is the news coverage of the report on the euro growth case. I think we are running into trouble and are and stability programmes of Ireland, Greece and refusing to recognise this. 1045 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1046

The indications are that those who judge us social partnership. Ryanair, the most successful with the kind of clinical independence we ought company of its generation in the Irish economy, to respect are casting a negative verdict on us. refuses to join IBEC and believes social partner- Senator MacSharry rightly referred to the Euro- ship to be nonsense. I recently asked the head of pean Commission in this regard, and the Inter- a multinational what would happen if trade national Monetary Fund, IMF, cast a similar ver- unions started recruiting in his company and he dict, as did European analysts. said it would leave Ireland overnight to return The Irish stock market was one of the worst to America. performing stock markets in the world last year It is convenient to place great credence in and, while this might not be accurate as a final social partnership because, without doubt, a deal judgment of the Irish economy, it indicates a will be done — a deal is always done — because change of opinion about it. The Irish stock it suits all those involved to create a charade that market is down about 40% from its highest point the economy is healthy. This will not matter much and, while this does not necessarily indicate that because it is not the real economy anymore. those selling Irish stocks are right, although there Those who depend on social partnership — con- are many of them, it is foreigners who are selling servatives and people with vested interests — are these stocks. Foreigners take an objective view of talking about the old economy. IBEC and the the economy and they do not like what they see Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, share the here anymore. They believe the game is up and same interests. They each want to pose as coun- the good times are over and, to some extent, this sellors for the economy when the economy is a verdict on the Irish Government’s economic exists elsewhere. policy. This may not be altogether accurate I warn against the sort of complacency the because the world is going through economic Government has shown today. I point out to the problems, as Senator MacSharry pointed out, but Government that multinationals are probably the foreign investors are indicating that things here most important prop to the economy and no have worsened and the economy has become vul- major multinational has located here in the past nerable. They do not feel the Government is on year. Can the Minister of State address this? top of what is going on. Strong and worrying signals are coming from the I am concerned by what the international com- multinational sector but they can be addressed if munity has seen happen to the property market, we create the necessary infrastructure and do not one of the pillars of the economy, which has more fudge the issue. or less collapsed, despite the anaesthetic words of spin doctors and soothsayers. I am also concerned Senator Dan Boyle: I sense a huge dichotomy about multinational companies in Ireland and in the motion presented to us this evening by Fine Senator Donohoe will be familiar with this topic. Gael and in the opening contributions of its There was a debate in this House recently on members. On the surface I cannot disagree with broadband and the Broadband Infrastructure Bill the wording of the motion as I want to see an went on the Order Paper today, but the Govern- acceleration of the reform of sectors of our econ- ment’s complacency on the issue says it all. Mini- omy. I want the role of the Oireachtas to be sters have said we should not worry about broad- respected. I want to ensure vital infrastructure is band because multinationals are still coming to delivered and the funding required in all levels of Ireland but this merely means they have not quite the education system and for research and rumbled us yet. We are sitting on our laurels and development and IT development is provided. are happy with what has happened in the past 15 Senator Twomey’s opening contribution was years. We are not keeping up with what is hap- nothing short of a rant. It is nonsense to argue pening to this generation. If we do not realise we that everything that is economically negative is are falling behind with regard to broadband and the fault of the Government. The argument is other areas, and the Fine Gael motion mentioned particularly hard to take from the Fine Gael infrastructure, the economy has serious problems. Party, which covers itself in a veneer of economic The Government is depending greatly on social competence but has, in opposition, proposed partnership and we must be careful of this. It tells some of the most insane economic policies to fea- us not to worry in the hope that talks on the issue ture in political debate. For example, during the go well, but social partnership does not matter general election campaign before last, it proposed much anymore. It is a nice charade that involves compensation for taxi drivers and Eircom share- the trade unions and employers. Once an agree- holders. The joint platform agreed between the ment is reached we are told the economy is fine Fine Gael and Labour parties prior to the pre- because a pay agreement has been reached. This vious general election was predicated on levels of is a cosmetic exercise that does not represent the economic growth that were not achievable given truth as only employees who are members of the knowledge available at the time. If those par- trade unions and employers who are members of ties had found themselves in Government, they the Irish Business and Employers Confederation, would have spent most of their time in office IBEC, are bound by it. Some of the most renouncing the programme for Government they important and vibrant parts of this economy are presented to the population at the general elec- members of neither and will have no truck with tion. That is an economic fact. 1047 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1048

[Senator Dan Boyle.] Senator Dan Boyle: If my words are so offen- I am the spokesperson for the party which pro- sive to the Senators opposite, the truth must duced the most prudent economic platform at the hurt. previous general election, one which anticipated that the rate of economic growth would slow Senator Paschal Donohoe: We will not take down. However, electoral politics dictated that this. Fine Gael and the Labour Party were just as likely to work on the basis of bogus economic fig- Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senator Boyle ures as any other party. The former party’s changed his colour and was found out a long attempt to present current economic conditions time ago. in the most negative terms possible must be challenged. Senator Dan Boyle: Since 1982, the Fine Gael Party has been found wanting in seeking the con- Senator Liam Twomey: The figures used by fidence of the electorate. Fine Gael were provided by the Department of Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Green Party took Finance and accepted by the Government. office to try to save itself.

An Cathaoirleach: Please allow Senator Boyle Senator Dan Boyle: The reason it has been to continue without interruption. found wanting is that it has not been honest econ- omically. Senator Dan Boyle: I am referring to the rate In the current international economic climate of economic growth used by the Fine Gael Party, we are still projecting an annual economic growth not whether two sides of the balance sheet rate of 2.7% this year, which is well above the added up. European average and double that of most of our competitors. I am confident we will not have a Senator Liam Twomey: The Senator knows repeat of our experience of the 1980s because the exactly what I am talking about. He should not economic growth achieved in the past decade has manipulate the figures to suit himself. placed us in a better position to withstand——

Senator Dan Boyle: The Fine Gael Party pro- Senator Paschal Donohoe: Why does the Euro- duced an exaggerated rate of economic growth, pean Commission not agree? which it was not possible to achieve, either then or now. We are not in a national or international Senator Dan Boyle: Did the Senator not hear recession, nor is the economy stagnation. The Senator MacSharry’s contribution? The EU said worst thing to happen to the economy, still one exactly what I said. of the best performers in Europe, is that the rate of economic growth has slowed. Senator Jerry Buttimer: Did it refer to zero Valid criticisms can be made of the way in growth? which resources are apportioned in our economy and the transfer of decision making responsibility Senator Dan Boyle: The EU referred to lower from the Government to external agencies. The rates of growth. The Fine Gael Party can com- health service is an obvious example of the latter plain when it is in Government and achieves trend. Questions should be asked about the economic growth every year. If one does not have decisions by agencies to cut various services economic growth, one does not have the despite receiving increased allocations every year. additional resources to meet needs. The argument made by Fine Gael amounts to nothing more than name calling and hand waving. Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Senator should read the report. Senator Paschal Donohoe: It is not name call- Senator Dan Boyle: I read it avidly. Senator ing. Who is ranting now? Buttimer might do the same when he under- stands economics. Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senator Boyle has not made a single proposal. He has done nothing Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Senator should but rant. not be patronising. That is a typical remark and he is wrong. Senator Dan Boyle: I am a few decibels short of my ranting voice. An Cathaoirleach: One speaker has possession and other Senators will have an opportunity to Senator Paschal Donohoe: His contribution so speak. I ask Senators to allow Senator Boyle to far has been derisory. continue without interruption, please.

An Cathaoirleach: I ask Senators not to engage Senator Dan Boyle: My confidence is based on in debate across the floor. the fact that the structure of the economy has 1049 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1050 changed and our relationships with trading part- ation in the budgetary position. In January the ners are much different. For instance, when we live register revealed a sharp increase in unem- joined the European Economic Community we ployment to approximately 4.8%. Ireland has conducted 50% of our trade with the United slipped 17 points on the world competitiveness Kingdom, our main trading partner. This figure ranking. What proposals does the Government has reduced to 14% and our main trading partner have to meet these challenges? It does not appear is now the United States, with which we conduct to have any meaningful, concrete solutions to the 15% of our trade. Our trading relations are more problems facing us. diverse, not only in terms of the number of coun- Just last weekend, the Minister for Transport, tries with which we trade but also in terms of the Deputy Noel Dempsey, withdrew his plans to types of goods and services in which we trade. It introduce competition on the Dublin bus market. is also more secure as a result of adequate invest- Commuters will be left stranded between the ment over the years. aspiration of the Minister for the Environment, This change is not the sole responsibility of any Heritage and Local Government to reduce car Government or political party. Structural dependency and car transport and the Minister decisions made over the years on education and for Transport’s inability to offer an alternative to taxation policy have boosted economic growth. static traffic on the M50. We have seen no plans The Single European Act created the Single and Senator Ross made a contribution on this. Market in Europe and encouraged many multi- We see overflowing Luas and train carriages. national companies to establish in Ireland. The People spend almost 20 hours per week travelling benefit of some of these factors is beginning to to and from work which is an inordinate amount dissipate and the manufacturing sector is experi- of time and an unhealthy mark of our economy. encing difficulties as companies move to locations We speak about infrastructural development. with a lower cost base. Problems also arise Rail transport along the western corridor from regarding energy use in the economy. Navan has long been promised but we have had In his contribution, which I described, perhaps procrastination and no delivery. My constituency in unparliamentary language, as a rant, Senator of Cork South-Central has no National Roads Twomey referred to the Green Party, of which I Authority project under construction. We will not am the finance spokesperson. Our proposals to have an N28 upgrade, a Bandon Road flyover or restructure the taxation system will not add one a Sarsfield Road flyover. In a failure to tackle cent to the tax burden and will be to our advan- growing traffic congestion, no new buses will be tage in creating a more competitive, resilient provided to our gateway city. economy in future. For balanced regional development we need development which is sustainable and delivers Senator Jerry Buttimer: I welcome the Minister infrastructure on time. We do not have this. In of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy his remarks, Senator MacSharry blamed outside Noel Ahern, to the House. While I did not intend influences. Perhaps he is correct. What are we to have a slagging match with Senator Boyle, he doing as a nation when the Government pro- continually trots out the line that newer Members motes decentralisation but does not provide the of the House do not understand economics. This infrastructure for it? Undoubtedly we are facing is not the case. a worsening budgetary climate. What hope do we The figures produced by my party show that have of rectifying this? the Exchequer balance of \2.3 billion in 2006 has The Minister for Finance did not have the become a deficit. When one sees overcrowding in answers at the meetings of the Committee on Fin- our hospitals, the lack of balanced regional ance and the Public Service this week. We have development and chaos in the education system, no record of delivery of infrastructure on time or one questions the Government’s economic prog- on budget. We speak about promoting e-tech- ramme and the country’s competitiveness. nology and communications infrastructure but we I will take no lectures from Senator Boyle have had a dilution of the commitment on broad- about my party’s role in government. band as laid out in the programme for Govern- ment. Greater access to broadband was to be a Senator Dan Boyle: He will give them though. plank of Government. However, only 15.4% of people have access to it. An Cathaoirleach: Allow Senator Buttimer to The Fine Gael spokesperson on communi- continue without interruption, please. cations, energy and natural resources, Deputy Simon Coveney, called for the implementation of Senator Jerry Buttimer: He should not tell us a ten-point plan. If we are serious about a know- we do not understand economics. We do under- ledge economy, the communications infrastruc- stand them and I welcome this debate on the ture should be upgraded to higher speed fibre- economy. Yesterday, the European Com- optic cable. Anyone involved in industry, edu- mission’s annual report on the economy under cation and communications will state the import- the Stability and Growth Pact referred to several ance of this. Priority must be given to the connec- macroeconomic and price competitive challenges tion of schools and education institutions to next facing Ireland and noted the noticeable deterior- generation access, which is sufficient bandwidth 1051 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1052

[Senator Jerry Buttimer.] domestic and external factors likely to restrain to carry data, images, voice, television and video. short-term growth prospects, it is important to It is important we commit to this. put this lower economic growth into context. Senator Donohoe spoke about upskilling. GDP expanded at an annual average rate of 6.5% Many people are in dire need of upskilling. In my over the period from 1997 to 2007. This has facili- former job as a director of adult education I met tated a substantial improvement in living stan- people seeking to be retrained, educated and dards, as evidenced by the fact that income per upskilled. The importance of the work of FA´ S capita is now among the highest in the EU. The cannot be understated. Many community edu- number of people working in Ireland today has cation providers who are supposed to be self- increased by more than 700,000 since 1997. financing and therefore left alone are struggling. Unemployment has fallen from more than 10% We need serious examination of how we provide in 1997 to approximately 4.5% last year, which as for upskilling and retraining people. Senators stated is among the lowest in the EU. Yesterday and this morning, we discussed the At budget time, GDP growth of 3% was pro- image of the House and the questioning of its rel- jected for 2008, a lower growth rate than in recent evance. I recommend that the Seanad actively years, due primarily to lower new housing output seeks to be included and regularly this year. However, once new housing output 6 o’clock updated on social partnership, the returns to more sustainable levels, growth is national pay talks and economic expected to pick up in 2009 and 2010. This owes matters such as that which we are discussing this much to the fact that the underlying fundamen- evening. This would mean we could employ our- tals of the economy remain strong, facilitated by selves as a legitimate forum for debate in parallel appropriate economic, budgetary and social poli- with the social pay talks. I ask the Minister of cies as well as the fostering of a business-friendly State to consider this. and pro-enterprise culture. I commend the motion to the House. It is We are now seeing a re-balancing of growth important we debate this matter because this is away from domestic demand, new housing con- the legitimate forum for it. I thank Senator struction in particular, towards more sustainable, Twomey for proposing the motion. export-led growth. A renewed emphasis on enhancing competitiveness is required to ensure Minister of State at the Department of Finance this re-balancing is achieved in a smooth manner. (Deputy Noel Ahern): I am pleased to speak in Improving our productivity is vital and it is good favour of the Government’s counter-motion. In to hear Members on both sides of the House particular, I wish to restate the Government’s speaking on it. firm commitment to position the economy for It is important to note the key role played by sustainable development during the years ahead fiscal policy in terms of supporting the economy. while adapting to the reality of more moderate Current spending will rise by approximately 8% growth in the future. I also wish to put firmly this year while revenues will grow by only 3.5%. before the House the Government’s strong com- Despite this, only a modest deficit is in prospect. mitment to progressive public sector reform and Capital spending will rise by approximately 12% to confirm the Government’s objective in as full implementation of the national develop- entering talks on a second pay agreement under ment plan is given priority. This will help boost Towards 2016 to achieve a sustainable pay deal the productive capacity of the economy and lay compatible with improving competitiveness and the foundations for future growth. productivity. It is also the Government’s inten- General Government surpluses in ten of the tion to inform the Oireachtas fully as appropriate past 11 years are solid testimony to the Govern- about progress in this regard. ment’s sound management of the economy. We I record the Government’s progress in enhanc- also have one of the lowest levels of public debt ing the delivery of infrastructure on time and on in the EU, which is important in terms of dealing budget and the measures put in place by the with future pressures on the public finances, Government to speed up the delivery of vital stra- especially those stemming from the ageing of tegic infrastructure. I repeat the Government’s the population. firm commitment, as set out in the national Recent years have seen significant improve- development plan and as underpinned by the pro- ments in the overall quality of the public service. vision in the Exchequer multi-annual capital These include better financial management, more envelope, to spend an annual average of 6% of professional human resources management, regu- gross national product on capital projects to latory reforms, e-Government initiatives and a address infrastructure needs. I reiterate the sharper focus on service delivery. Government’s firm commitment to continued A major challenge for the public sector over support for the development, enhancement and the next ten years will be to sustain recent pro- modernisation of Ireland’s education sector and gress and build on it. The moment is opportune Ireland’s science, technology and innovation to review our public services to see if they are sector. ready for the challenge. With this in mind, the While the economy is facing into its most diffi- Government asked the OECD to carry out a cult and challenging period for some time, with review of the public service. It will benchmark the 1053 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1054 public service in Ireland against other compar- Investment is the key to future growth and able countries and to identify appropriate prosperity. We are in a position, fortunately, to measures to compare the productivity and effec- deliver the quality and range of infrastructural tiveness of the Irish system against comparable services our people deserve and which for a long international best practice. It will make recom- time we could not afford. The bulk of capital pro- mendations on future directions for public service jects are being delivered on or below budget and, reform which will support the Government’s in some instances, ahead of schedule. Two key drive for delivery of world-class services within Government initiatives, the value for money existing resources. It is hoped the OECD will effort and the Planning and Development deliver some clear messages to guide us. (Strategic Infrastructure) Act 2006, are specifi- The efficiency review announced by the cally designed to help the delivery of infrastruc- Ta´naiste and Minister for Finance in the Budget ture in a cost-effective and timely manner. Statement is a practical demonstration of the The Government has put in place a firm frame- Government’s commitment to improving the work for achieving value for money in infrastruc- delivery of public services and achieving value for ture delivery. Measures include better appraisal money. The review requires Departments to of all capital projects; full cost benefit for all pro- come forward with specific proposals to maximise jects more than \30 million; a central evaluation administrative savings in their area. Such pro- unit to verify compliance with best practice posals should not jeopardise the maintenance of requirements; a clearer focus on what we get for front-line services. In short, it should yield admin- this investment; and a more strategic approach to istrative cost savings which will help meet overall procurement and the use of public private part- Government priorities. nerships to deliver value for money. A large element of the costs of public service We must strive to ensure the delivery of infra- is pay provision. It is important we get value from structure on time and on budget. This is crucial what we pay to staff to deliver such services. to the further development of our economy and Public service pay must develop in a manner con- the enhancement of our quality of life. The sistent with competitiveness, price stability and Government recognises the importance of having budgetary policy. The public service should be in in place a dynamic means of meeting our infra- a position to attract and retain its fair share of structure deficit which also safeguards the tradit- good quality staff at all levels. It should neither ional central principles of our planning system lead the market nor trail it. and ultimately delivers investment ahead of Pay developments must reflect the more chal- demand. The Planning and Development lenging economic and competitiveness scenario (Strategic Infrastructure) Act provides this means we face and be more directly linked to changes in and has introduced major changes to the way productivity. It is crucial wage expectations are large infrastructure projects of national import- kept in line with the rapidly changing economic ance are handled. Some of the most important environment in which we are operating. Over infrastructural developments in the history of the recent years, wage increases have exceeded pro- State will go through this new streamlined pro- ductivity growth with a resulting loss in competi- cess. Some are already being dealt with by the tiveness. Regaining market share will require an board. More than 75 requests for pre-application approach to wage determination which takes consultations have been received and six full stra- greater account of productivity developments as tegic infrastructure applications are on the well as labour cost developments in our major board’s books. trading partners. We are favoured with a dedi- The Act provides an enhanced service for all cated public service that many other countries stakeholders, infrastructure providers, State would wish to have. The Government appreciates bodies and the public by enabling the planning and values this commitment. We need to build a code to meet efficiently with the demands of a wages policy that develops public services. modern State. We are confident it will help Members will appreciate that, as is the case ensure continued economic development takes with any negotiations and especially with pay place in a sustainable manner. The new process negotiations, there is a need to retain a level of is designed to be robust and transparent while confidentiality regarding developments in the delivering the right decisions within reasonable proceedings. However, the Oireachtas will be and defined timeframes. kept informed, as appropriate, of progress made. The national development plan, NDP, plays a As regards the overall framework agreement, significant role in our strategy. It sets out a com- Towards 2016 provides for a formal review during prehensive investment framework of the Govern- 2008. This will provide an opportunity to take ment’s investment priorities over seven years in stock of outcomes achieved for the overall goals the areas of economic and social infrastructure, and to consider any opportunities arising to refo- human resources, social inclusion and enterprise, cus and reprioritise. The Taoiseach announced science and innovation. NDP investment in infra- the commencement of the review process at last structure will be crucial for enhancing our econ- week’s plenary meeting with the social partners. omic competitiveness and delivering a better This review process will be separate to the pay quality of life. It is an ambitious investment prog- discussions. ramme on a scale not before seen in the State. It 1055 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1056

[Deputy Noel Ahern.] 2013, SSTI, was launched in June 2006. This is a priority for the Government and its commit- builds on key Government investment over ment to its implementation is underpinned by the recent years, such as the programme for research Exchequer capital envelope published with the in third level institutions, PRTLI, and the budget in December. Over the next five years creation of Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, total Exchequer capital expenditure will average which have been successful in developing our 6% of gross national product, twice the rate of research capability. The implementation of the other EU member states. The NDP will trans- strategy forms a central plank of the NDP and form the State and secure our future growth. will involve expenditure of \8.2 billion over the Like the NDP, developing the education period of the plan, \3.2 billion of which will be system is at the heart of strategic growth policies allocated to the higher education sector. The with great strides already made. In the past three SSTI relies on the development of a higher edu- years, more than \2 billion has been invested in cation system of the best international quality educational infrastructure. Much-needed pro- with advanced infrastructure and skilled gress has been made in improving the existing researchers. The strategy also addresses the vital stock of school buildings. A sum of \4.5 billion international and all-island dimensions of has been provided for the schools building and research and innovation. modernisation programme under the NDP. The priority for educational expenditure in 2008 is to Without high level research we cannot hope to provide additional new accommodation to cater be a success in the future. This is why we have for the 13,000 additional children who will seek a consistently prioritised research and development school place this year while also facilitating policy during our time in office. The Government school modernisation and expansion in primary is committed to leading the delivery of a know- and post-primary schools in other areas. There ledge-based economy in Ireland. The world uni- will also be a large increase in third level capital versity rankings recently published by the pres- expenditure. tigious Times Higher Education supplement A comprehensive new information and shows that universities in this country are reaping communications technology strategy is being the benefit of the increased investment from the finalised by the Department of Education and PRTLI, SFI and other funding sources. Trinity Science. Its aim will be to develop an e-learning College has moved up to 53rd place, while UCD culture in schools to ensure ICT usage is embed- has broken into the elite 200 for the first time at ded in teaching and learning across the 177th place. Meanwhile, UCC and DCU have curriculum. risen more than 100 places, entering the top 300. Supporting the education of children from dis- Progress is not confined to the SFI or schemes advantaged communities will be a key objective funded by the Department of Education and of the delivering equality of opportunity in Science. IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland are schools, DEIS, initiative. The initiative is address- actively encouraging companies located in this ing the educational needs of children and young country to undertake research and development people from disadvantaged communities from activities in Ireland. preschool to upper second level education, from I have given a fully comprehensive review of three year olds to 18 year olds. This initiative is all that is being done to keep us ahead of the motivated by a desire to ensure no one is left curve. Senators will agree the Government is behind, that every child gets the supports he or making good progress on the key issues that face she needs to reach his or her potential and that a Ireland as we strive to enhance the national com- culture of high expectations is at the centre of our petitiveness and productivity on which our living actions locally and nationally. standards and quality of life depend. We are pur- Up to \900 million will be spent this year on suing economic and fiscal policies that will con- education for students with special needs, double tinue to promote sustainable economic growth as the amount in 2004. More than 19,000 staff in our they have done over the last ten years. We will schools work solely with children with special continue to pursue the critical public service needs, including approximately 10,000 special reform agenda. We will strive for a pay agree- needs assistants compared with just 300 in 1997. ment that enhances our economic environment. More than 7,800 resource and learning support We will continue to secure the best value for teachers are in place compared with 2,000 in 1998. money in infrastructure investment while promot- More than 1,100 other teachers support children ing the speedy delivery of critical infrastructure in our special schools, while hundreds more work provided for in the national development plan. in special classes. We have demonstrated our ongoing commitment Advanced research and development and the to supporting the education sector and promoting availability of highly qualified people is crucial to the science, innovation and technology sector. the success of Ireland’s economy. The Strategy Taken together, these measures should help for Science, Technology and Innovation 2006- ensure our continuing economic success, which is 1057 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1058 the basis for the improved living standards and no longer suffice as policy for the much tougher better quality of life we all want. conditions we will face in the next few years. On past performance, it is likely the Government will Senator Feargal Quinn: I welcome the Minister adopt an attitude of denial, especially with regard of State although I am not sure I entirely wel- to its own responsibility for the situation in which come all his words. I am pleased this debate is we find ourselves today. I could forgive that atti- taking place because it is an important issue. I tude of denial if, at the same time, the Govern- have had a very interesting few months. One of ment recognised the need for radical change in its the opportunities I had was to visit a country approach to managing the economy. Unfortu- called Panama, of which I had never heard, other nately, if the debate so far is anything to go by, I than in the context of the canal, until I went there do not see any sign of it. last month. The reason I was invited, as was the In today’s conditions, the issue of competi- former Prime Minister of Estonia, a country I tiveness has begun to bite. I and others have been also had a chance to visit recently, and the former talking about our eroding competitiveness for Minister for Finance of New Zealand, was that many years but the reality of what has been hap- those in Panama admired and wanted to learn pening has been masked by the artificial and from countries of a similar size which had done unsustainable growth provided by the construc- well in the past ten years. tion industry bubble in recent years. During those I was very impressed at what I learned and at crazy years — we can tell they were crazy by the the enthusiasm and ambition of the Panamanians number of cranes that were around — we forgot and what they intend to achieve. To take one about exports. We forgot that ultimately the only example which illustrates the competitiveness of real wealth we create is that which we earn the marketplace in which Ireland is competing, abroad. Now that our home-grown bubble has the Panamanians, who wish to deregulate as burst and we are forced to rely once again on much as possible, decided to aim to be one of the exports, we are beginning to realise just how best countries in which to set up new businesses. uncompetitive we have let this country become. They looked around the world and saw that People may have grown tired of hearing this Ireland was quite good at this with a period of message but they have never needed to hear and nine or ten days required to set up a business. pay attention to it as much as they do now. The Our Companies Registration Office has done a area of competitiveness, which was mentioned by very good job in this area. However, the best the Minister of State in the Government amend- country in the world in this respect is Singapore, ment, must be much higher on the agenda. where it is intended to reduce the time it takes to In the new world into which we are moving, we open a new business from seven days to three cannot ever again rely to the extent we did in the days. Panama, in view of the competition it is up past on overseas companies to provide the lion’s against, introduced a system under which it takes share of our growth. We must still work hard to 20 minutes on the Internet to set up a company. attract foreign direct investment, as mentioned by This system may not be exactly the same as ours, the Minister of State, and to make Ireland a hos- but I mention it because it gives us some idea of pitable and rewarding place for high value-added the competitiveness of the marketplace for coun- activities. However, in the future foreign direct tries such as Ireland. investment will be no more than the icing on the We were so with it 15 or 20 years ago that we cake. For the cake itself, we must rely increas- managed to create the Celtic Tiger. However, ingly on indigenous, Irish-owned companies. We today there is a degree of complacency, as need a quantum leap in the level of support we referred to by Senator Ross, which can certainly provide to these companies. We need to extend be seen in the Government amendment and in our vision with regard to these companies and we the Minister of State’s speech. I welcome this must help them also to extend their vision. In debate because it is high time we replaced com- terms of State support, the hero of the future will placency with action. The changed economic be Enterprise Ireland rather than IDA Ireland, situation demands an appropriate response. We although the latter will continue to do valuable can no longer get away with blatant mismanage- work and must still be supported. ment of the economy for electoral purposes As the motion suggests, we must recognise the which has been a disgraceful feature of past years. crucial importance of education in preparing When I was in Panama one of the questions I Ireland for the future. I was interested to hear the was asked was how I saw the future of Ireland. I figures the Minister of State gave the House, but said that what we had done in the past would not here again there is complacency that will cost us work in the future and that we must re-invent dearly if we do not rid ourselves of it. As we have ourselves. I did not get the sense that we were greatly increased our investment in education in doing so in the Minister of State’s words tonight. recent years, we are inclined to regard this as a The future will not be like the past and what we problem we have addressed and which is now more or less got away with in previous years will behind us. Nothing could be further from the 1059 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1060

[Senator Feargal Quinn.] we have seen is a decrease in the growth of this truth. What we have invested up to now has economy. solely been in a process of catching up. We still We have a remarkably robust and well-man- have not caught up with the rest of the world, aged economy. We are looking at 3% growth at however, let alone invested enough to take a the moment. I was delighted to hear Senator position of leadership in the knowledge society of Quinn say he was asked to go to Panama to which the Minister of State spoke and which explain how a small country that is probably looms ever nearer each time we discuss this similar in size and population to Panama and subject. Estonia has managed to develop. While it is It was interesting to hear where we are in terms always good to welcome proposals about how of higher education and that Trinity College is things can be done better, there is no doubt that among the top 100 universities while UCD is in in only two decades, we have escaped an the top 200 and others are in the top 300, but we invidious legacy of involuntary emigration, job- have a long way to go. We go on a lot about the lessness, inflation and high taxation while effec- national development plan, but what we must do tively doubling to considerably in excess of two is to revisit that plan in the light of what we now million the number of people engaged in pro- know and make the required adjustments. In a ductive employment. nutshell, we need to spend less on roads and more This transformation has delivered the standing on education. Only by shifting the entire thrust of we now enjoy as a dynamic, prosperous and high our infrastructural investment away from bricks participation economy at the very vanguard of and mortar and towards the development of brain the globalisation era. Ireland is a location pos- cells can we do the right thing in terms of the sessed of unrivalled attractiveness to investors future of our economy, society and country. and workers alike and a success story which con- The Minister spoke about pay and how it was tinues to unfold as both a model for others and important to get value for the money we pay staff the envy of our international peers. to deliver such services. He said that over recent The doomsayers among journalists who said years wage increases have exceeded productivity that things could go wrong were right because growth with a resulting loss in competitiveness. I things can go wrong. Notwithstanding that, our do not heard sounds of that being solved. Four economy has brushed off every challenge and has and a half years ago, the Government promised shown itself to be remarkably robust in an econ- to bring in a structure that would ensure State omic downturn. It is a well-managed economy at employees did not hold the country to ransom. that. I was very concerned about what happened last It is clear that success brings with it new chal- week at Shannon Airport, which called out to us lenges and opportunities but success also equips only six or eight months ago and evoked such us with the capacity and resolve to meet these sympathy. What does it do? It allows a small new challenges and opportunities most effec- number of State employees who earn very large tively. Investment is essential to help us meet sums of money to close the airport. I understand emerging challenges. The economy is very strong that these people, who say they do not want to with gross domestic product and gross national work overtime, get 37 days leave per year and, product growth rates that are among the best in including pensions, earn something like \140,000 the world. The Government recognises that to per year. They said they not willing to wait to remain competitive, we should increase the added solve this and that they were going to close down value of our economic output. To achieve this, we the airport. The airports are closing down. We need to focus on high technology industries which are in a competitive marketplace and cannot are driven by significant investment in research afford to do this. The Government has promised and development. The medical device industry is to take action to avoid that. Regardless of what- clearly one of these sectors in which future tech- ever it is going to do, it promised it four and a nological development can be exploited. half years ago and we have not solved it yet. We I welcome that the first stem cell clinic, which must avoid the complacency I detect in the coun- is an adult stem cell clinic, opened recently in ter-motion. Germany. It is interesting because it no longer involves research. It is an actual clinic where Senator John Hanafin: I second the amend- people can go to receive treatment. This is a very ment outlined by Senator MacSharry. In recent important development and I see a role for years we have seen higher interest rates, higher Ireland in this. A few years ago, I called for oil prices, a depreciation of the dollar and ster- Ireland to engage more in this area because it is ling, the opening of the economies of China and the future. It involves the effective use of adult India, the subsequent loss of manufacturing jobs stem cells which is where the proven successes to those countries and a slowing of growth in our have arisen to date. This country still has an trading partners. Despite all this, the only thing opportunity to develop in this area. 1061 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1062

The Government is committed to the develop- The principles underpinning the Government ment of Ireland as a world-leading knowledge approach are to ensure every organisation has economy founded on research, development, efficient flows of financial information, vertically innovation and a highly developed skills base. It and horizontally, so that decision making is is delivering substantial investment in cutting enhanced by the availability of up-to-date, accur- edge research, development and innovation and ate and comprehensive financial information; has put in place a number of key structures and assist managers by providing quality financial strategies to drive our development in this area, systems and giving them sufficient flexibility in including Science Foundation Ireland and the the management of resources allocated to them; programme for research in third level institutions. provide incentives for management to achieve With the launch of the Strategy for Science, greater efficiency in the management of their Technology and Innovation 2006-2013, the resources; ensure financial responsibility is del- Government reiterated its commitment to the egated as close as possible to the point of delivery creation of a knowledge-based economy. The of service so that empowerment is not just a buzz goal of this ambitious strategy is to position word but a reality; and ensure a balanced focus Ireland as a key player in research on the world on the relationship between the outputs and the stage. The strategy envisages significant increases inputs required to achieve them. in public expenditure on research and develop- The new national development plan will see a ment over the next eight years. During this deployment of resources in supporting the pro- period, we will double the number of PhD gradu- ductive capacity of our enterprise sector, equip- ates in Ireland; develop a targeted and focused ping it to compete effectively in an increasingly programme of research activity across a range of knowledge intensive and interconnected global key sectors of the economy, building on our pro- economy. At a point in our national development ven expertise in information and communications where our future prosperity has never been more technology, pharmaceuticals and biotechnology; dependent on unlocking the talents of each citi- enhance arrangements for the capture, protection zen, the Government is reinforcing the emphasis and exploitation of intellectual property; further on skills and training to ensure adaptability to the develop the opportunities for collaboration accelerated change we face. between industry and academia; and create a There is no doubt value for money is a hall- dynamic environment in which to attract, produce mark of this Government. The ambitious plan is and retain world-class researchers and research to ensure the national infrastructure in terms of projects. The clearly stated aim of the Govern- time and costs is significant value for money. In ment’s strategy is that by 2013, Ireland will be this regard, it is a top priority during the lifetime renowned internationally for the excellence of its of this Government to ensure we get value for research. We will be at the forefront in generating money in respect of the moneys we spend. We and using new knowledge for economic and social are achieving this by all recognised standards. progress within an innovation-driven culture. This Government has been more than just a It is part of what we are discussing today. It is manager of an economy. It has been flexible and important to mention that this Government con- innovative. I refer in particular to the financial sistently ensures the less well-off have benefited services sector. During 2007, the moneys under from its achievements. This was made clear by management in the Irish Financial Services the recent budget where, again, concern was Centre exceeded \1 trillion for the first time. It given primarily to those who are less well-off. In provides a significant income for the Govern- an economic debate, it is good to restate that. ment, which heretofore went to other countries, The Government is also conscious that stra- as it manages funds in this country and of other tegic management initiatives are essential for countries. better quality public service delivery. Excellent This Government is getting international public service delivery is essential on social recognition from people who are internationally grounds because of the importance of the service respected. The country has become a location provided by the Civil Service and the public The Economist has described as being the best service. It is also essential for economic reasons place to live and work in the world. Instead of because of the important contribution of the listening to the Jonahs, we should consider the work of the Civil Service and public service to fact that despite the difficulties, we have thrown national competitiveness and sustainable every burden off our shoulders and continued to development. The cost of the Civil Service and grow and develop. public service, the extent and cost of Government programmes and the combined effects of these Senator : I thank the Minister of on the economy, particularly its competitiveness, State for his contribution on the amendment. It require that financial management systems be is unfortunate the motion tabled by Fine Gael, all comprehensive and effective and ensure that of which was positive and pinpointed some of the value for money is achieved. key areas that must be addressed, should be met 1063 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1064

[Senator Eugene Regan.] the Oireachtas. That commitment was not ful- with a rebuttal without any real engagement in filled but that is a separate issue. the Chamber on the issues raised in the motion. We also have a democratic deficit domestically In an article in a recent publication, Ireland’s where we adopt legislation in the Oireachtas and Economic Success: Reasons and Prospects,by Paul delegate to Ministers an extensive area to legis- Sweeney, the Taoiseach states that the Celtic late without the Oireachtas taking responsibility tiger was in gestation for quite some time prior for adopting legislation setting out the policies to its emergence. The fact is that it was in ges- and principles by which any statutory instrument tation and it did emerge prior to Deputy Bertie by a Minister should be adopted. Ahern becoming Taoiseach. In 1997, when the The third area I believe there is a democratic Fine Gael-Labour Government left office, it had deficit is in the manner in which the social part- the first budget surplus in the history of the State, nership agreements are conducted by the inflation was very much under control, Govern- Government. Given the extensive nature of those ment borrowing was in line with the requirements agreements that do not concern simply pay and of our membership of the European Monetary employment conditions but go into wider fields Union and growth rates and export performance of taxation, social policy and general economic were very impressive. It was in those difficult policy, it is imperative, if that process is to have times during the gestation period of the Celtic legitimacy, that there is engagement by the tiger that difficult political decisions were made. Oireachtas. More particularly, apart from the The difficulty now is that a complacency and a issue of legitimacy there is the issue of effective- smugness has set in about the success of the ness and if the Government enters into that pro- Celtic tiger and we get carried away in the belief cess without setting out any objectives in terms of that this Government created it. We do not look what it hopes to achieve in the social partnership forward; we look back. agreements, that is a fatal flaw in its approach. It The Minister of State said it is important to put is incumbent on the Government to set out its the current lower economic growth into context objectives for the Oireachtas but the only reason and revert back to the growth rates we have had I can surmise that is not done is that if those in the past ten years. We revert back to the objectives are set out, the Government can be Government expenditure and fiscal policy of the judged on its success or failure in those nego- past ten years but that is not what we are talking tiations. about today. We are talking about adopting an In the past the Government has entered into economic policy which will sustain growth into commitments that were a serious constraint on the future. The Minister of State said: Government policy. We saw that in the area of Current spending will rise by approximately testing for driving licences where, by reason of 8% this year while revenues will grow by only the nature of the agreement, the Government 3.5%. Despite this, only a modest deficit is in considered it was not possible to outsource that prospect. testing process. Those are important issues and if We are aware of the figures. That is a shocking there was a greater input by the Oireachtas, they admission and the complacency of the conclusion could be teased out more effectively and the highlights the problem we face because there has public policy input into the social partnership been a complete reversal in the state of the agreements would be more transparent and Government’s finances. For the first time we have effective. a rising national debt and despite all the painful Deputy Enda Kenny suggested in a recent Da´il decisions and processes of the 1980s and 1990s, statement that the situation could be addressed we are not concerned about that. There is a smug- by each new round of partnership being pro- ness about the success of the past ten years and a ceeded by a motion outlining the key challenges lack of realisation that action is required. to be addressed and making the processes of part- Senators Twomey and Donohoe touched on nership more transparent and subject to engage- many of the issues that speak to the motion but I ment with the appropriate Oireachtas committee. want to raise the issue concerning the social part- That is the mechanism by which this issue could nership agreements and the manner in which the be addressed. State’s public policy input takes place without Setting out those objectives by the Govern- regard to the Oireachtas. In the context of the ment is of particular importance. We are aware Lisbon treaty and previous treaties which had to now that we are in a very difficult economic be adopted by referendum, the continual claim is situation. That has been confirmed by the Euro- that there is a democratic deficit in Europe. In pean Commission report on the Irish economy that regard it is clear that the democratic deficit and the Government’s stability programme. is in Ireland, something that was recognised dur- Government finances have gone from a \2.3 ing the Nice treaty debate, and measures were billion surplus in 2006 to a projected deficit of put in place for the scrutiny of EU legislation by \4.9 billion this year. Our competitiveness has 1065 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1066 fallen in the rankings, as has our share of export Senators Ross and Quinn mentioned com- markets. placency, a concern I share. We are entering In 1950, Sea´n Lemass opposed the establish- different times and must know our public services ment of the Industrial Development Authority on can cope with adaptability. From the point of the basis that the Minister for Industry and Com- view of the , a party that merce under that Bill was endeavouring to pass believes in competition in services, we are not in over his functions in respect of industrial develop- favour of privatisation for its own sake. In some ment from his Department to this new body. We areas, such as health care, funding will be pro- have come a long way since then but we should vided largely by the State. The application of not abdicate our responsibility for industrial some private enterprise will deliver good results. development and outsource it. Perhaps the Mini- In the long term, this will protect the public ster of State would address that issue. service industry. The inability of the public sector unions to accept change is the greatest threat Senator Fiona O’Malley: I hope I please towards privatisation. The groups that decry priv- Senator Regan by engaging fully with the motion atisation are the ones who drive the exasperated and counter-motion before the House. Regarding Government down the privatisation road. Exchequer returns, the difference is that invest- Reform of the public sector is the greatest protec- ment made now is wise and will produce a good tion of our public services. return for the country. Anyone would agree that I heard on the news that IMPACT has called one invests to produce growth. This has been part an all-out strike with regard to the airports. As of the success of this country. This is why certain an island nation we must be careful with these decisions were taken in respect of the national matters. Senator Ross outlined what is wrong development plan. with social partnership. We must look at this criti- Senator Regan referred to smugness on the cally because we need to decide what we need part of the Government because of ten years of from the process. economic success. I think it is pride that we all Senator Regan criticised the Government for experience as we travel abroad. I know this from not explaining what it sought from the partner- my experience in Ukraine where people try to ship process. It is perfectly clear and is written in find out how we did it. We are a beacon to many the amendment to the motion. The Government’s countries and everyone who has played a part, objective in entering talks is to achieve a sus- not just the Government, can be proud of it. I tainable pay deal, compatible with improving reject the notion of smugness. competitiveness and productivity. The amend- I refer to competitiveness in Government pro- ment also refers to the Government’s intention vided services, especially public services. A good to inform the Oireachtas fully as the appropriate example of that was Spencer Dock train station, forum to address this. We must be careful the first publicly developed train station opening because, as a result of social partnership, we are ahead of time and within budget. This was a not used to strikes. I would hate to think we direct response to competitiveness from other might revert to them. We need cool heads and to elements of the transport sector. Transport 21 play our part in a partnership deal that works. We gave \34 billion to the transport sector. Iarnro´ d do not need one for the sake of having one. We E´ ireann proved what could be done when there need one that will work for the workers. was money available and it wanted some of it. I listened with interest to the call by Senator The company had to demonstrate it was capable Alex White for a debate on the tax regime, which of providing a service within a budget and on would be useful. As feared, Senator White time. It has made us all proud by demonstrating reversed his party’s position in the election. It is how positive public services can be when faced disingenuous to fight an election knowing that with a competitive element. people like tax cuts and then, six months later, to The amendment to the motion notes the pro- decide to abandon the proposal. I welcome such gress to date on public sector reform and wel- a debate. comes the Government’s strong commitment to progressing public sector reform. Mitt Romney Senator Pearse Doherty: I listened with made a point in his speech on so-called Super interest and wondered if it was 1 April when I Tuesday which means, as far as the Government heard comments that privatisation is good for is concerned, that it would be wise to retain its public services. strategy section before it enters partnership talks. He said: “Can you imagine what happens to an Senator Fiona O’Malley: I will give Senator economy where the best opportunities are for Doherty the proof of it. bureaucrats?” We must be cognisant of this because that is the case. That is how we got the Senator Pearse Doherty: The slowdown of the result of the second benchmarking report. We economy is no surprise. It has not been helped by cannot afford to lose sight of this. our dependence on the US economy which has 1067 Economic Outlook: 20 February 2008. Motion 1068

[Senator Pearse Doherty.] diture on research and development in higher been on a downward slide since the sub-prime education and enterprise remain well below lead- crisis broke. Neither has it been helped by the ing comparable countries. Sinn Fe´in seeks an all- failure of the Government to intervene as the Ireland research and development strategy co- competitiveness of the Irish economy has been ordinated through the enterprise development eroded. Our ranking in terms of global competi- agencies, central and local government, business, tiveness has fallen since 2000. There are numer- trade unions and educational institutions, includ- ous reasons for this, including increases in con- ing a programme of assistance to small and sumption and investment rather than strong medium enterprises and new businesses to export growth; the slowdown in Irish productivity develop new research and development business growth, particularly in the high-tech sector; the plans. contribution of net exports to economic growth The rising cost base is undeniable. However, being small or negative in recent years; and the several contributing factors can be remedied by high reliance on the construction sector for appropriate, progressive Government inter- employment. vention. The three largest sources of spending in Since 2000, 65% of jobs have been created in Ireland are housing, child care and health. The public services or the construction industry. In the need for wage increases in such conditions is same period, the agriculture and manufacturing genuine but the Government through its policies sectors have lost jobs. It is crucial the Govern- can reduce the cost burden of housing, health ment acts to improve competitiveness. How suc- care and child care on ordinary workers. That cessful it will be in doing this depends on key would have a positive impact on wage inflation. decisions in areas such as regulation, finance, For the reasons I have outlined, I support the social capital and physical and knowledge infra- motion. structure. Ireland’s physical infrastructure, North and South, remains a source of acute competitive Senator Liam Twomey: No one in this disadvantage. During the boom years successive Chamber or in the media is trying to talk this Governments failed to introduce the infrastruc- country into recession. The Taoiseach stated not ture needed to attract foreign direct investment long ago that people who talked down the con- and enhance domestic business and ordinary struction industry were unpatriotic. However, people’s lives. often people simply are trying to have a reasoned Our cities are congested and public transport debate without the use of spin. The sector of our infrastructure is inadequate. We pay the highest economy that is not sheltered is suffering owing rates for broadband which is the slowest in to a loss of competitiveness that has been fuelled Europe. House prices have pushed workers by an increased cost base and lack of productivity further into the commuter belts around the major in some services on which it depends. cities, adding to personal debt and traffic conges- I run a business and, like other business people, tion problems. In transport, energy and infor- I know what it means to be fleeced by Govern- mation and communications technology, ment costs. Rates, waste and water charges are Ireland’s infrastructure lags well behind that of increasing while there is a raft of comparable countries in the OECD. 7 o’clock large additional charges, including Furthermore, there is still a knowledge deficit, VAT. That affects everyone who provides jobs. It will have a knock-on effect on particularly with regard to pre-primary education the economy when people begin losing jobs. The where Ireland is well below the European aver- Government did not take control of this cost base ´ age. A number of years ago Sinn Fein proposed and that is the nub of the issue. Each day I deal the introduction of free preschooling as a means with many areas of the public sector. Many of solving the child care crisis and beginning the people are making a significant effort to keep process of lifelong learning from an early age. We things working and running on time in so far as must deal also with the fact that many children they can. There are also many problems in that do not complete secondary school. In addition, sector, however, and I have been aware of them illiteracy levels are outrageously high for a first for more than a decade. Some of them have world country. At third and fourth level, we must improved but some have worsened in recent examine why none of Ireland’s institutions is years. Again, it is a failure on the part of the ranked among the best in the world. To enter the Government to recognise these well-known prob- ranks at number 250 is not good enough. I agree lems and tackle them. with Senator Quinn that we must do better. The The chickens have started to come home to use of ICT in Irish education remains poor. The roost and that is damaging our economy. Govern- statistics on the number of computers in ment speakers who recite lists in their contri- classrooms that do not work are proof of that. butions as if everything in the garden is rosy are Our approach to research and development is acting like the Taoiseach did some months ago a concern. While belated strides have been made when he told us we were unpatriotic and talking in this regard, current employment in and expen- down the economy. We are not talking it down 1069 Health 20 February 2008. Services 1070 but urging the Government to do something Members of the House waffling about how much about it before people are back on the dole the Government can spend will not help matters. queues and the emigration boats. Our growth rate Senator O’Malley made an unbelievable state- of 3% is not keeping pace with public spending ment when she said the public sector unions are growth of 8% and the erosion of the cost base. driving the Government down the privatisation That is what we must confront when we talk route. If any explanation is needed for how the about broadband, the lack of road infrastructure Progressive Democrats became redundant rather and basic things such as how people get to work. than radical at the previous general election, that People are forced to commute in cars and find statement says it all. their commuting times lengthening. They are experiencing great difficulties at present and Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Ta´, 27; Nı´l, 19.

Ta´

Boyle, Dan. MacSharry, Marc. Brady, Martin. McDonald, Lisa. Butler, Larry. O´ Domhnaill, Brian. Cannon, Ciaran. O´ Murchu´ , Labhra´s. Carty, John. O’Brien, Francis. Cassidy, Donie. O’Donovan, Denis. Coghlan, Paul. O’Malley, Fiona. Daly, Mark. O’Sullivan, Ned. de Bu´ rca, De´irdre. Ormonde, Ann. Ellis, John. Phelan, Kieran. Feeney, Geraldine. Walsh, Jim. Glynn, Camillus. White, Mary M. Hanafin, John. Wilson, Diarmuid. Leyden, Terry.

Nı´l

Bradford, Paul. McFadden, Nicky. Burke, Paddy. Norris, David. Buttimer, Jerry. O’Reilly, Joe. Coffey, Paudie. Phelan, John Paul. Coghlan, Paul. Prendergast, Phil. Cummins, Maurice. Regan, Eugene. Doherty, Pearse. Ross, Shane. Donohoe, Paschal. Twomey, Liam. Fitzgerald, Frances. White, Alex. Healy Eames, Fidelma.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators Diarmuid Wilson and De´irdre de Bu´ rca; Nı´l, Senators Maurice Cummins and John Paul Phelan.

Amendment declared carried. vision of a community care facility and small hospital in Ballinamore, County Leitrim. This Motion, as amended, put and declared carried. was sanctioned in 2002 and was given the go- ahead then. An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to sit On numerous occasions since then I have again? raised this with the HSE, both locally and nationally. It appears that when I raised it here in Senator Donie Cassidy: Tomorrow at 10.30 September or October with the Minister, Deputy a.m. Harney, she pursued the HSE, which the follow- ing day phoned officials in the local office in the Adjournment Matters. north west and told them to proceed. Until recently however, they have not received the ———— proper confirmation to allow them to move to the next stage. I hope that tonight the Minister of Health Services. State will be able to inform us when they will be Senator John Ellis: I welcome the Minister of in a position to move to the next stage. State, Deputy Pat The Cope Gallagher, to take This community facility is badly needed. At this motion on the Adjournment. present, there are people occupying beds in I raise the matter of a capital project, which has general hospitals who could be accommodated in been proposed by the HSE, and formerly by the such a facility, if it were provided. I hope the North-Western Health Board, entailing the pro- Minister of State can tell me the up to date posi- 1071 Health 20 February 2008. Services 1072

[Senator John Ellis.] therapy, social work, chiropody, community wel- tion and give me a definite date with regard to fare, physiotherapy, dietetic and home help proceeding on this project. services. The Government strategy, Primary Care — A Minister of State at the Department of Health New Direction, 2001, is the roadmap for the and Children (Deputy Pat The Cope Gallagher): development of primary care services in Ireland I thank Senator Ellis for raising this important over a period of ten to 15 years. The development issue, which he raised last year in the House with of such services is an essential component of the the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy health service reform process. It has been esti- Mary Harney. I am glad to have the opportunity mated that in a developed primary care system, to respond and I apologise on her behalf for 90% to 95% of people’s day-to-day health and being unable to attend here. social care needs can be met in the primary care This matter provides me with an opportunity setting. to reaffirm the Government’s commitment to The key objective in primary care policy is to developing community-based services at local develop services in the community that will give level. Government policy with regard to older people direct access to integrated multi-dis- people is to support people to live in dignity and independence in their own homes and communi- ciplinary teams such as that proposed for the Bal- ties for as long as possible. Where this is not feas- linamore development. Under the Towards 2016 ible, the health service supports access to quality agreement the Government has committed to the long-term residential care where appropriate. establishment of 300 primary care teams by 2008, This policy approach is renewed and developed in 400 by 2009 and 500 by 2011. A review of these the latest partnership agreement, Towards 2016. targets will be undertaken this year. The Government’s objective of continued Since 2002, the Government has provided sig- development of community-based services for nificant new funding to enable the primary care older persons is reflected in the funding given to strategy to be rolled out, amounting to \52 mil- the system in recent times. In the budgets of 2006 lion. In addition to the additional resources being and 2007, over \400 million was provided to put in place, the HSE is working on the reorganis- enhance service developments across the sector, ation of existing professional resources in the of which just over \190 million was for com- community from a care group model to a primary munity-based services over the two years. Arising care team model. from budget 2008, a full year package of \22 mil- I appreciate that the people in the Ballinamore lion has been allocated for new services in the catchment area may feel that nothing is hap- area of older people. This gives a total of over pening because they do not see anything tangible \422 million for new services for older people happening. I want to inform them that the project over the last three years. has been approved by the HSE. The next step is As the Senator is aware, the Health Act 2004 the appointment of a design team. That will hap- provides the Health Service Executive with pen by the end of April and, hopefully, progress responsibility for the management and delivery of will be made then. As a public representative, I health and personal social services. As a corpor- fully appreciate that until such time as the sod is ate body, the provision of these services, includ- turned, the people of Ballinamore and its catch- ing progressing community hospitals or primary ment area will feel nothing is happening. care centres at local level, is, therefore, an oper- I assure them there is movement and the ational matter for the HSE. moneys will be provided. The project has been The proposed capital development for Ballina- approved and the appointment of the design team more, which has a total capital requirement of is the next stage. We are anxious to ensure that over \7 million, has been approved by the execu- team is in place by the end of April. The new, tive. The project is progressing to the next stage, which is the appointment of a design team. It is high-quality facility planned for Ballinamore will expected that the team will be in place by the end substantiate and complement the significant of April next. I understand from the HSE that, service delivery thresholds already put in place or when complete, the development will include the planned for primary care and services for older following: Ballinamore community hospital, to people. include long-stay care services and palliative care services; day care services, to include a social Senator John Ellis: If there is no move on this model of care with interaction activities and per- project by the date given — we were promised it sonal care needs; and a centre to facilitate the would be commenced by certain dates twice pre- provision of multi-disciplinary primary care viously — I will raise it again in the House and services, which will ultimately encompass the core will continue to harass both the HSE and the multi-disciplinary team of general practitioners, Minister until the project gets to the building public health nurses, mental health, occupational stage. 1073 Schools Building 20 February 2008. Projects 1074

Schools Building Projects. regarding the provision of a new school at Ballin- temple, in Cork city. Senator Jerry Buttimer: Cuirim fa´ilte roimh an Aire Sta´it. I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing Modernising facilities in our 3,200 primary and 750 post primary schools is not an easy task given me raise the important matter of the provision of the legacy of decades of under-investment in this a new school in Ballintemple in Blackrock in area, as well as the need to respond to emerging Cork. I am heartened by the Minister of State’s needs in areas of rapid population growth. The response to Senator Ellis, because for the first Government has shown a focused determination time a Minister of State has come into the House to improve the condition of our school buildings and deviated from a prepared script on an and to ensure the appropriate facilities are in Adjournment matter and given an honest place to enable the implementation of a broad appraisal of where matters stand. I commend him and balanced curriculum. on that and hope he does the same in response During the lifetime of the national develop- to my matter. ment plan almost \4.5 billion will be invested in Five years ago, two new portacabins were schools. Approximately \600 million will be spent located on a site adjacent to the school in the this year on school buildings. This is an unpre- grounds of the SMA Fathers. Has the situation cedented level of capital investment which improved since then? There has been massive reflects the commitment of the Government to growth in the area and Ballintemple national continue its programme of sustained investment school has outlived its present campus. The site in primary and post primary schools. This invest- has become too small, the school is on a split cam- ment will facilitate the provision of new schools pus and we now need a bigger site and school. It and extensions in developing areas and the is important that we provide for both the present improvement of existing schools through the pro- and the future. We have an opportunity now to vision of replacement schools, extensions or plan for a meaningful education programme for large-scale refurbishments over the next number our young people, existing students, parents and of years. teachers of this school. Turning to the specific matter in hand, Ballin- The Ballintemple and Blackrock areas are ones temple national school is a co-educational of rapid urban growth where there is competition primary school with an enrolment of 211 pupils for school places. I met a woman recently in the as of September 2007. Enrolments at the school area who walks with her three children to Tur- have increased by 14% in the past five years. The ner’s Cross national school every morning, a fair school has a current staffing of one principal, trek. I understand the Ballintemple school board eight mainstream class teachers and two perma- of management has spoken with senior planners nent learning support-resource teachers. in the Department, but there has been no tan- The school has submitted an application to the gible news. I do not want to receive a response Department of Education and Science for capital that only marks time, because a marking-time funding towards the provision of a new school response will bring no progress on this and the long-term staffing figure on which accom- development. modation needs will be based has been deter- We need a commencement date for this neces- mined and notified to the school authority. It has sary new school. We need a school that will cater been agreed that appropriate accommodation for three times the current intake because of should be provided to cater for a long-term pro- existing demands. The school is currently an jected staffing of one principal and 12 mainstream eight-teacher school but the new school planned assistants, with appropriate ancillary accom- will have capacity for 12. The SMA fathers have modation. offered a free site of 1.5 acres to the Department The school authorities were advised in and finance will be available from the sale of the September 2007 that the proposed site for the current school. There is no issue with regard to new school building was suitable for the construc- the land which is self-financed. The SMA fathers tion of a new 12 classroom school and that they and the board of management are ready to move. could proceed with its acquisition from the SMA I ask for some progress on the provision of this fathers. The progression of all large-scale building important facility in this fast-growing area of projects from initial design stage through to con- Cork city. struction phase is considered on an ongoing basis in the context of the national development plan Deputy Pat The Cope Gallagher: I apologise and the Department’s multi-annual school build- that the Minister for Education and Science is not ing and modernisation programme. The project in a position to attend the House tonight. I thank at Ballintemple will be considered in that context. the Senator for raising the matter as it affords I thank the Senator once again for raising this me the opportunity to outline to this House the matter and allowing me to outline the progress Government’s strategy for capital investment in being made under the school building and mod- education projects and to outline the position ernisation programme and the position regarding 1075 Rail 20 February 2008. Network 1076

[Deputy Pat The Cope Gallagher.] lion passengers use the Derry to Belfast line. It the provision of a new school building at Ballin- has been recommended by consultants that £64 temple, Cork City. I will relate Senator million be spent on the line. Out of the £64 mil- Buttimer’s strong views about the progression of lion, £23.5 million has been promised to be spent the project to the Minister for Education and on it. However, the actual figure earmarked is £12 Science. million. This £12 million is to be used to upgrade the section from Ballymena to Coleraine. The Senator Jerry Buttimer: I thank the Minister of line will be closed during this time and shuttle State for his reply and urge him to revert to the buses will be used for this route instead. Many Minister for Education and Science on this people feel this could ultimately impact on the matter. We have had enough procrastination and number of people using the service, but they do need to see tangible progress. The site is free and not want to stand in the way of progress. will cost the State nothing. I hope we will see tan- The Minister for Regional Development in gible movement soon. Northern Ireland, Mr. Conor Murphy stated that investment in the line from Coleraine to Derry is Rail Network. key. However, he also stated there is no money Senator Cecilia Keaveney: I thank the for this. The Northern lreland Government has Cathaoirleach for allowing me to raise this matter £18 billion to be spent on infrastructure in the on the adjournment of the House. While I wel- next ten years. In that context, why is there no come the Minister for State at the Department money in the budget for upgrading the track? of Health and Children, Deputy Pat The Cope The Minister says they must raise the money, Gallagher, I am disappointed the Minister for and if they do so, the upgrade can be carried out Transport is not here. That is no reflection on the in 2011. If the money is found it will mean the Minister of State, who knows exactly the situation line will be closed again while repairs are carried in Donegal. He knows that one should be able to out. Translink says it does not have the equip- get on a train in Derry and arrive in Dublin. It is ment or staff to upgrade the Ballymena to Col- the people who live outside the general Donegal eraine section and the Derry to Coleraine section area that I would like to awaken to the fact that at the same time. However I have been led to ´ one can now physically get on a train in Derry believe that Iarnro´ dEireann has the necessary and arrive in Dublin. However, there are diffi- equipment and staff to do this and the equipment culties with the line, particularly from Derry to is currently lying idle in Dublin. Coleraine and there are difficulties with the lack The Derry to Coleraine track is a jointed one, of political will to resolve the issue. but what is needed is a welded one. New trains I have been raising this issue since Deputy on this route cannot get up to speed, and some Mary O’Rourke was Minister for Transport, travel at speeds as low as 20 mph. That is one of which is some time ago. I have been trying to get the core problems. It is faster to take the bus from people to understand the concept of Dublin to Derry to Dublin than it is to take the train. Derry, not just Dublin to Belfast, as the full line. At the last North-South Ministerial Council There have been great improvements on the meeting in January, the possibility of both Dublin to Belfast line. The Enterprise is a Governments coming together to buy trains for supreme service and investment in the Dublin to the Belfast to Derry route was raised and a Belfast section of the line is continuing, which is decision will be made at the next meeting in May. to be welcomed. However, it is happening at the I ask that the decision be taken, not only with expense of the Belfast to Derry section of the regard to new trains but also with regard to the line. upgrading of the track because it has been proven I ask the Minister of State to relay the facts to that where improvements are made, they yield a the Department of Transport and I challenge significant increase in the numbers of people who those involved in the North-South Ministerial use trains. Council, on both sides, to explain why they can The ILEX regeneration board plans to build a talk about Dublin to Belfast but cannot talk new railway station in Ebrington. The chief about Dublin to Derry. I know that if it gets as executive of the ILEX board has taken on the far as Derry, we can then examine the possibility demands of the Into The West group and has of bringing it back into Donegal. Others are talk- agreed to leave enough room to build a track ing about linking train services from the west to across the Foyle to Donegal. This is a tran-juris- Donegal, ultimately linking, I would like to think, dictional corridor and is eligible for funding with the service in Derry. under the Tran European Network System, Some may ask why I am not fighting the corner TENS. I ask the Department to confirm that this for Dublin to Donegal at this point. It is simply is the same funding body that funded the upgrad- that results can be achieved very quickly on the ing of a section of the Cork to Dublin line section of the line to which I am referring. It has recently. Apparently, that upgrade was funded been recorded by Translink that more than 1 mil- because it was stated it was on the Dublin, Cork, 1077 Rail 20 February 2008. Network 1078

Belfast, Larne line. If that is the case, it is a scan- While it did not form part of the main agenda, dal that the Minister for Regional Development the Minister mentioned it at the North-South in Northern Ireland cannot fight the corner for Ministerial Council meeting last December and Derry to Belfast, as part of the Derry, Belfast, he understands that the service is being con- Dublin link. It is also a scandal that we are not sidered by the Northern Ireland authorities in the using European funds that have been available context of overall plans for the development of for this for the past number of years and Northern Ireland’s railways. Both larnro´ d delivering what is needed. E´ ireann and Northern Ireland Railways are I reiterate the point that this is not about a new working on proposals to improve the Dublin- train service, new planning, a new line or compul- Belfast service in terms of frequency and jour- sory purchase orders on people’s lands. It is about ney times. a number of passing points for the existing train While I welcome that the Senator’s Adjourn- service and a matter of replacing a jointed train ment matter relates to the Derry-Coleraine line with a welded one. service, the North-South Ministerial Council at its I would expect a negative answer or for this December 2007 meeting welcomed a presentation issue to be put on the long finger were it a compli- from representatives of larnro´ dE´ ireann and cated matter, such as the suggestion of an overall Northern Ireland Railways regarding the Dublin- package of an all-island train service, but not at Belfast service. It noted the options for the the level of complexity described. I am asking development of the service, particularly in terms that the prevarication stop in respect of the cur- of increased service frequency, improvements to rent service and the two stations, York Street and rolling stock and the elimination of speed restric- Central Station. If it is good enough for the Cork- tions. The council requested officials to assess the Dublin line, it is good enough for the north west. options and prepare a report for consideration by When I raised this issue previously, people told it at its next meeting in May. The subject will be me that there are flights to Derry and on the agenda and there will be an opportunity Carrickfinn, a planned road through Aughnacloy to consider the Senator’s matter. and bus services and asked me why I would want In considering the case for improved Dublin- a train service. The childish argument would be Derry rail services, it is important to bear in mind that, if everyone else can have one, so can we. the improvements made in transport links to the The north west needs access and infrastructural north west generally. I first came to Dublin as a development and there is a simple answer. The public representative from the far end of the amount of money is not significant in the scheme north west for the county in 1981 when there was of things, with \64 million being the most little funding available. Over the years, major required. Some \23 million has been promised upgrades of roads, such as the N2, N4 and N15 and, a number of months ago, I attended the announcement at Stormont by Rev. Ian Paisley, serving the north west, have been completed and MLA, of a further \12 million. more are planned. I am proud that, when travel- I am not asking for the impossible. It is no ling on the M1, the only town one goes through reflection on the Minister of State that the Mini- is Emyvale, then the inner relief road at Omagh ster for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, will have and through to Strabane. While much remains to the facts when he returns to the North-South be done, it is important to focus on what has been Ministerial Council, the issue I raised on the done in recent years in terms of train, air and Order of Business. There are council meetings on road services. Substantial support is being pro- education, health, transport and so on, but we are vided for air services between Dublin and Derry not getting feedback so that we can give our own and between Dublin and Carrickfinn, Donegal’s feedback. European funding is available and I ask airport. These links are supplemented by exten- that it be spent in the north west. sive hourly bus services between Dublin and Derry, including nine daily services each way Deputy Pat The Cope Gallagher: Were the operated by Bus E´ ireann. Minister in a position to attend the House, he Further investment under Transport 21 will see would be present. That he is not present is no improvements in transport infrastructure serving reflection on the House or the Senator, as he has the north west, including the Atlantic road corri- another commitment. As we all know, matters on dor linking Derry, Letterkenny, Sligo, Galway, the Adjournment can be raised in the morning, Cork and Waterford. It is important to highlight but Ministers can have other commitments. I wel- the fact that the Government has agreed to make come the opportunity to respond to Senator available funding of \580 million to provide a Keaveney and the House on the Minister’s major upgrade of roads within Northern Ireland behalf. serving the north west gateway of Letterkenny Rail services to Derry are available via Belfast. and Derry. The project is being taken forward by The upgrading of Belfast-Derry rail services is a the National Roads Authority, which has matter for the authorities in Northern Ireland. responsibility on this side of the Border, and the 1079 The 20 February 2008. Adjournment 1080

[Deputy Pat The Cope Gallagher.] Senator Cecilia Keaveney: The last point was Roads Service of Northern Ireland under the aus- the most important. If, as I have been led to pices of the North-South Ministerial Council. believe, there is European funding for the Progress has been made in respect of air links, Dublin-Derry line, it is time to call it the Dublin- roads and the Derry-Belfast line, but I take on Derry line. Will the Minister of State confirm or board Senator Keaveney’s strong case regarding refute whether the Cork-Dublin or Glountaune- the Derry-Coleraine route. She stated that, Middleton line got that funding on the basis that instead of it being necessary to secure CPOs for the lines all head to Larne? We deserve the same rail lines or property, it is a question of an service as everyone else, a line of thinking fol- upgrade. It would be beneficial for those from lowed by the Minister of State. We accept that Donegal who would use the Derry-Dublin train there has been much investment in the area, but service and not just the people of Derry. I will there is no train service. We are discussing eco- raise the various issues referred to by the Senator friendly work that will minimise the amount of with the Minister. I can neither refute nor con- heavy freight on the roads, which is offered by firm the issue concerning the provision of capital funding elsewhere in the country, but I assure the train services. Senator that the facts will be ascertained and I will ask the Minister and his office to provide The Seanad adjourned at 7.40 p.m. until them to her. 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 21 February 2008.