Legislative Assembly of Prince Edward Island Standing Committee on Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation

Published by the Order of the Hon. Greg Deighan, Speaker

Date of Hearing: Wednesday 8 February 2006 Meeting Status: Public

Location: Pope Room, Coles Building

Subject: Proposed amendments to all-terrain vehicle regulations

Committee: Wes MacAleer (Chair), MLA Charlottetown-Spring Park Philip Brown, Minister of Tourism Michael Currie, Minister of Development and Technology Cletus Dunn, MLA Alberton-Miminegash Robert Ghiz, MLA Charlottetown-Rochford Square, Leader of the Opposition Ron MacKinley, MLA North River-Rice Point Fred McCardle, MLA Borden-Kinkora Andy Mooney, MLA Souris-Elmira

Member present: Richard Brown, MLA Charlottetown-Kings Square

Guests: Dr. David T. Wong; Sally Lockhart (Island Network for Injury Prevention); Margaret MacKay; Kelsey MacIsaac, Meagan Gallant, Emma Gallant; Scott Anderson; Robert Ramsay (Canadian ATV Distributors Council); Dr. Ian MacQuarrie (Public Forest Council); Scott Livingston; Clifford MacIsaac; Arthur Birt; Chat Howard; Dr. Katherine Bigsby (Medical Society of Prince Edward Island); Wilma Hambly (IWK Hospital); Ben Hoteling; Steve Dickieson; Gary Dunning

Staff: Marian Johnston, Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees

Edited by Hansard Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

The Committee met at 2:00 p.m. Dr. David Wong: Okay, I’ll try. Chair (MacAleer): Welcome everyone. I’m a pediatrician working in Summerside. I’m greatly concerned about the proposed This is a meeting of the Standing Committee changes in the legislation regarding the use on Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and of ATVs by children under 16 years of age. Transportation. We’re here to hear citizens’ The ATV is a powerful motorized vehicle input with respect to changes or proposed equipped with four large wheels. Because of changes to the Off-Highway Vehicle Act. its design, ATV is very prone to turn over, resulting in serious and not infrequently fatal We have a number of presentations today: injuries to riders. eight in total this afternoon and another three or four this evening. So in the interest of Many people use ATVs because it allows making sure that everybody gets heard, them to go on unbeaten paths. As a result, we’re going to limit presentations to 15 the uneven terrain in combination with minutes, and hopefully we can have five or speed and the unsafe design of these 10 minutes worth of questions, but not vehicles contribute to many incidents, necessarily. We want everybody to have an resulting in numerous injuries and many opportunity to speak on this issue. I would deaths every year. note that tomorrow’s meeting of this Committee will be held in Kensington at the As you can see, I did not call these incidents Royal Canadian Legion, and that will be accidents because truly, they are not followed by two successive meetings on the accidents. They are incidents that are bound 15th and 16th which have been advertised in to occur because of the inherent unsafe the paper. design of these vehicles. For automobiles, there have been many advances over the So today to begin our presentations, we have years to make them safer. The only major a Dr. David Wong. I’d ask Dr. Wong and change in ATVs in the last few decades was whoever is with him to come to the table the banning of three-wheeler ATVs, and this and make a presentation. Welcome to our is not even initiated by the manufacturers. meeting, Dr. Wong. Thank you for joining They were banned by governments because us. We’re here to listen to your presentation, they were so unstable. The four-wheeler and hopefully we’ll have some questions, ATVs are still very unsafe because of their but we’re most interested in your input. high centre of gravity. Is this your screen? Are you going to have a The Canadian Pediatric Society and the use for the screen? American Academy of Pediatrics, the two organizations that represent pediatricians in Dr. David Wong: No, no. Canada and the United States, have published statements recommending that Chair: Okay. children under 16 should not operate or ride on an ATV. The age of 16 is not an arbitrary Dr. David Wong: I’ll start by saying that it number. It was selected after much is a bit intimidating here, and if you hear me deliberation based on evidence from injuries stutter a little bit, it’s all your fault. and deaths from ATVs in both countries.

Chair: Well, I tell you, the issue is the only In the US, children under 16 account for intimidating subject here. We’re all here to about 40 to 50% of injuries and 35% of listen to you. deaths caused by ATVs. In Canada, 25% of

1 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 the deaths and more than one-third of operate this powerful machine. Children serious injuries happen to children under 15 over 16 years of age with the proper training years of age. Although much fewer children would more likely have all the components than adults ride ATVs, proportionately, in place than a younger age. more children are hurt and killed every year because of ATV injuries. The incidents will Why is this so important to argue about the only rise because the sale of ATVs has age when we should allow children to markedly increased across the country in operate an ATV? The reason is this. We recent years. want them to be safe in their activities. ATV manufacturers have suggested that we Operating an ATV requires maturity, should just give younger children smaller physical strength, as well as experience. ATVs. That seems to make sense, doesn’t Setting the age of 16 does not mean that all it? But smaller ATVs are not safer for children under that age are not mature. children either. They are still powerful and However, the maturity of a person generally can weigh over 240 pounds. Do you want does increase with age. Most children over your child to get pinned down by a weight 16 would have attained a level of maturity like that? These smaller ATVs can still that is higher than, let’s say, 14. It doesn’t inflict serious injuries. Furthermore, once mean that those over 16 will not make poor the child starts to drive a small ATV, there judgements and those under 14 cannot make will be the temptation to drive a bigger one good judgement. whenever the opportunity arises. As a society, however, we need to decide on I would make the comparison that if you a cut-off point, and 16 certainly is a allow our younger children to drive a reasonable age, and this is also the reason smaller ATV, we should have smaller cars why the driver age is set at 16. Many parents and allow our 12 and 14-year olds to drive will argue that their younger children are them. Make sense? No. It is not enough mature and, as a result, should be allowed to simply to set an age limit when children are operate an ATV. There was exactly the same allowed to ride ATVs. They need to take an assumption made by many parents before approved training course, and they are their children got injured in accidents or required to wear approved helmets and incidents. Children will always try to protective clothing to reduce a chance of convince their parents that they are mature injury if they ever get into an incident. and responsible. I will suggest here that these requirements As parents, many of us also feel that our should be extended to all drivers of ATVs. children are more mature than many of their Furthermore, we should have a registration peers. However, when it comes to critical system for all ATVs, just like automobiles. decision making, younger children have a We can have legislation that leads the higher chance of making the wrong decision country. We don’t need to follow what other compared with older children, and I will provinces have done. We can have better have a case to illustrate that later. legislation than Nova Scotia, and let them see how much we care about our children. Since ATVs are powerful machines they require a fair amount of strength to operate. I should tell you that our province is leading However, physical strength is not the only the country in at least one area, and that is issue here: able to make critical judgement our childhood immunization program. and decisions, together with physical ability Prince Edward Island children have the best while allowing an ATV rider to safely immunization program in all of Canada.

2 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

This government is spending a lot of dollars more than dollars and cents. Of course, the to provide all the best vaccines, including amount of money that we have to spend on many expensive ones, to protect our children injured children can be much better utilized from serious infections and that almost put on many other healthcare issues. A lot of the pediatricians out of practice. We will fail waiting times can be shortened if you can them miserably if we allow them to get eliminate these senseless injuries and injured or killed because we allow them to fatalities. operate ATVs when they are too young. Let me tell you a true story here. It happened This legislation will not prevent all injuries on Prince Edward Island. On June 21st, and fatalities because of ATVs. Not long 2005, a 12-year old girl took an evening ago, a respected family physician in drive on a 250-cc ATV around 5 to 6 p.m. It Alberton died when riding an ATV. Even was still light out there. This was a routine with the best training and precaution, these that she did every evening, going through a incidents are still going to happen because of neighbour’s field to take her dog to swim in the inherent unsafe design of these a pond. She was wearing her helmet and she machines. Manufacturers have put their always went on the same path. money into making more powerful engines instead of making them safer. Our That evening, without her knowledge, there government, together with all other were some railway ties left along the path by provincial and federal governments, need to some workers in the neighbour’s field. Her work together to pressure manufacturers to ATV hit those ties and flipped over, pinning make these machines safer. We should make her underneath. She had to take her helmet them accountable for many of these injuries off in order to crawl out of the ATV. Her and deaths, and the monetary burden as well parents saw her just before this happened as the psycho-social impact on families and and she was not going faster than she society. normally did. Then they saw her walking back without a helmet and they knew In order to make this legislation effective something went wrong. When she got home, our government needs to educate the public her parents could see that her collarbone was about the importance of setting an age limit broken and she said that she was sore for children driving ATVs, as well as the everywhere. need for every rider to take a training course and to use protective gear all the time. It is Then the next few weeks were just one also important to enforce the law, and this nightmare after another. She was assessed needs special deliberation, because ATVs multiple times in the emergency room, are normally used on trails and farmlands. observed in the hospital, and endured a lot of pain. She had many X-rays and CAT scans Finally, let me turn to another aspect which and then finally transferred to the IWK is not often talked about. When children Hospital because she had partial dislocation suffer serious or fatal injuries, it affects a lot of her C1 and C2 vertebrae in her neck, more people than we can imagine. Not only which is the top two vertebrae. By the way, parents, siblings and relatives mourn about if there was total dislocation, she would be the loss. It also affects the children’s paralysed totally. She was lucky. neighbours, friends, classmates, teachers as well as those who care for them including She was put on traction twice but that didn’t ambulance paramedics, police officers, help. Finally, she was put on metal halos health care professionals, clergy and over her head and her hips for seven long counsellors. The affect on the society is far weeks to keep the vertebrae column stable.

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Imagine having those on you for seven I should end here by saying that what I have weeks. presented here was unanimously approved by all pediatricians of Prince Edward Island, The family said that she had been riding as well as all the medical staff of Prince ATVs for one year. Her dad is a very careful County Hospital. If given enough time, we person, very meticulous, and did all the could have more people, especially in the training. They normally have their ATVs all medical, nursing and even paramedical stored under lock in a garage and the keys profession, to endorse this. for the ATVs are also locked separately. So they’re very careful. Their family lives on a Thank you. farm. Although they believe they did their best for their children, making sure that they Chair: Thank you, Dr. Wong. follow all the rules that they can think of, they now agree that the government should Questions? We’ll have to limit the number set the age of 16 as the driving age for of questions to our presenters but let’s try to ATVs, and everyone should have the official accommodate as many as possible. training course before driving one. Mr. MacKinley. When I reflect on this incident I see that we can learn something here. If she had have Mr. MacKinley: I’ve got one for you. Let’s been a bit older, she might have recognized say, for instance, we did come out with rules the ties along her normal path and she might and regulations for ATVs and they were have made the decision to go around the ties licensed. Who would enforce these instead of trying to drive over them, which regulations or licenses? resulted in the ATV flipping over on top of her. This is where maturity and experience Dr. David Wong: This is something - that’s would have been helpful and might have why I say deliberation. Because it really averted a serious injury like this one. As I needs to be discussed, and we may not have said earlier, she’s lucky that she’s not the complete setup, but that needs to be also paralysed now. That is not the end of her looked at from time to time, and evolve over suffering. She is still having pain almost all time. I guess, still, the law enforcement the time. would have to be the law enforcement including the police and the RCMP, but we Now in summary, I would recommend the may also need other organizations to help. following to the committee: one, children should not be allowed to drive or ride on an Mr. MacKinley: Down in, I believe it was ATV until 16 years of age; two, all ATV Montague, I had a phone call from a lady. riders should take an approved training She’s got, like, a fish pond and she’s got course before receiving a driver’s license for horses. ATVs were coming in and they were ATVs - I mean a separate driver’s license for fishing in the fish pond. It’s a private fish ATVs; three, all ATV drivers should wear pond, and scaring the horses. I talked to her approved helmets and protective clothing; and her husband. The Mounties don’t have four, mandatory registration of all ATVs in the time or the facilities to go after them. the province; and five, our government, They can’t catch them unless they bought an together with other provincial and federal ATV and then that may be very dangerous. governments, should work with ATV How do you tell who they are when they got manufacturers to address safety concerns of helmets on? these machines. Like, it’s okay to come out with laws but

4 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 you got to be able to enforce them, and the still got to be able to enforce them. RCMP can’t control the highways here because they don’t have enough police on Dr. David Wong: So we need more people the highways. We know that because the to help that, and as I said, in Toronto, they government has cut back the funding, or not are going to need them for all their increased funding, to the RCMP over the shootings, and here we need them for some years. I could say probably not increased it. other purpose. They’ll tell you in the summer that if you’re driving on the No. 1 highway between Chair: Thank you, Dr. Wong. I appreciate Cornwall and where I live, New Haven- your input. Cornwall, there’s that many tourists on the road that if they try to catch a speeder, by the Dr. David Wong: Thank you. time you get turned on the road to go after the speeder, they’d probably cause another Chair: We’ll now call our second presenter, accident. So I mean, these are things - you Sally Lockhart, who represents the Atlantic can have all the laws you want, but how do Network for Injury Prevention. Sally. we enforce them? Welcome to our meeting. Can we just hold up for a minute? Dr. David Wong: I can tell you that, for example, in Toronto they are asking for Sally Lockhart: Yeah. more police officers because of all the shootings. Here on PEI we may have a Chair: Great, thank you. Now please begin. different set of problems that government, both provincial and federal governments, Sally Lockhart: Thank you. have to say that we need to increase our law enforcement agency in order to cope with As Mr. MacAleer said, my name is Sally different issues in different places. We may Lockhart, and actually today, I’m have ATVs as one of our problems that we representing the Island Network for Injury need more law enforcement agencies instead Prevention, or INIP for short. INIP is a of a shooting. So we need more policing, network of over 60 individuals and maybe. I’m not one to decide that. organizations dedicated to reducing injuries in Prince Edward Island. I come here today Mr. MacKinley: I’m not going to argue as a person who believes in valuing the lives with you of children and that, as a society, we do need to protect our children so that they can grow Dr. David Wong: I think that, yes, it would up to be healthy and active adults, our future mean that we need more people to be able to leaders. Although I will specifically refer to enforce the law, you’re right. ATVs today, my comments equally apply to snowmobiles and recommend that they be Mr. MacKinley: But it really doesn’t - like included in this amendment. if you look at the budget for the RCMP, the province negotiates the budget and the My background is actually in social work, RCMP budget hasn’t gone up over a period first working here in Prince Edward Island of years. Yet their salaries have gone up, the with those who had suffered a traumatic cost of fuel and gas. That means there’s less injury and could not return to the life that police officers to do the work. Until you they were leading pre-injury. In 1985, while have a government that’s prepared to put the working at the Rehabilitation Centre in extra police officers out there, you can have Ottawa, I was asked to help the hospital to all the rules and regulations you want. You begin to address the prevention of injury

5 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 after several young adults arrived at the participate fully in life. centre for rehabilitation after sustaining spinal cord injuries. The staff had begun to Secondly, the aspect of risk and see patterns in their stories of these injuries responsibility. There’s a brand new ATV and realized that prevention was the real over on display at the mall here. I don’t cure. Since then, I have worked in the area know if you’ve seen it. It’s a prize in a draw. of childhood injury prevention at the Right on that machine is a label that says - national level and now in all aspects of and I’ve got the exact quote now - “Never injury prevention in the Atlantic region and operate this vehicle if you are under the age nationally. of 16.” So why would we have a law that allows younger people to operate these I also come here as a family member machines when the manufacturers touched by an ATV crash. Twenty years ago themselves say they should not be operated a young cousin was thrown from the family by someone under 16? I find that a puzzle. ATV, his helmet smashed, and he sustained a severe brain injury. His life, the lives of his All ATVs come with a warning label: immediate family, and the lives of his “Improper use can result in severe injury or extended family changed forever that day. death.” The ATV manufacturers do not want More about that later. to be liable for the injuries and deaths of children and youth who use their product. I wish to talk about the issue from several This label protects them while putting all the aspects: the aspects of rights and freedoms; risk on the shoulders of the operators or the the aspect of risk and responsibility; the owners themselves. aspect of healthy child development; and the cost of injury. Recently, in New Zealand, a parent was actually charged with negligence in the So first of all, rights and freedoms. There’s death of his child after an ATV crash. The often talk that by making stricter regulations New Zealand government is sending a people’s rights and freedoms are violated. strong message that children have a right to My response to that is that children who are be protected and parents can be charged for injured on ATVs have had their rights knowingly putting their child in harm’s way. violated by not being guaranteed protection The warning label acknowledges them in from a lethal weapon. An ATV can be a mounting irrefutable evidence that ATVs lethal weapon, one that creates harm to the can be dangerous, and when combined with child or youth operating it or its passenger. the lack of strength and judgement of Once injured, your freedom is gone forever. children, can be lethal, as we have seen across Canada. My cousin has no freedom now. That was taken away the moment of his crash. He’s Often we do not recognize the risk in our not at liberty to live where he might want, to lives nor do we have the tools to realistically associate with whom he might want, to learn access it. We assume products wouldn’t be a trade and make a living. All that was taken available for sale if they weren’t safe. Sadly, from him and his family when his brain was this is not the case. Often the government irreparably damaged. If my cousin had been bans or removes the product from sale after denied the so-called right to operate an accumulating reports of injuries and deaths, ATV, and the countless other youth who and the three-wheeled ATVs are a case in have been killed and injured since then, then point of that type of ban. he and those youth would be free today, free to grow up to their full potential and to As a society, we accept that a certain amount

6 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 of bumps and bruises are a normal part of a which cause the most number of fatal developing child’s life and that’s true. Risk injuries in childhood across Canada, the is a part of life. However, severe brain, actual risk of a child sustaining an injury per spinal cord or chest injury that puts a child hour on an ATV is six times higher than the in an intensive care unit with a breathing risk of being injured while riding a car on tube and a mother crying by his or her side is the highway for the same number of hours. not a right of passage. We need to ask what So for a recreational activity that is meant to is acceptable risk. Injury occurs when energy be fun, the risk is just far too high for is transferred to a person. The more the children. energy, the greater the risk of serious injury. Because we are now able to better collect ATVs and snowmobiles are called and analyse detail around injury events, the recreational vehicles and some actually see medical community can act like the old them as just sophisticated toys, but this is a canary in the mine. They are sending a myth. ATVs are machines, they are heavy signal about worrisome trends in ATV vehicles, and in some ways an ATV is like a injuries. You have heard and will hear car but with none of the protective features several presentations from the medical of a car. That energy transfer has nowhere to community. The onus is on all of us, go but through that ATV operator or including parents, governments and the passenger. This first injury is often the last. community in general, to hear these signals It is that catastrophic. The brain and spinal and shape policy that deals with this new cord are not fixable body parts. Society and information. parents should not put children in this harm’s way. Allowing children and youth We know from other injury issues that under 16 to operate an ATV is not an legislative approaches have the best results acceptable risk. in reducing injury. Seatbelt legislation is a good example. Since the introduction of Many will say that more kids are injured strict seatbelt and child safety restraint laws, playing basketball or hockey or riding we have seen a dramatic reduction in deaths bicycles, and yes, that’s true. We see many on our highways despite more and more cars injuries from these recreational activities. being on the road. Sadly, however, we still But there are two very important points that do see deaths from motor vehicle crashes in have to be considered here. First, these are all ages and they are more often in those usually minor injuries and do not result in who choose not to follow the law and buckle hospitalization and severe injuries that can up or properly restrain their children. lead to death. Secondly, when making statements like these, the principle of Legislation sends a message and needs to be exposure must be considered. That is, far combined with education and enforcement more children play basketball, hockey or for any injury prevention effort to work. I ride bicycles for far many hours than would argue that in the ATV issue, with the children who are exposed to an ATV. evidence the government has in its Therefore, a child’s risk of injury, and possession as to the injuries and deaths of especially a serious injury, from operating an children from ATV crashes, that the PEI ATV for any defined period of time is far government would be passing the buck to higher than the risk to that child from any of put the responsibilities solely on the those other recreational activities for that shoulders of parents to supervise the ATV same length of time. use of youth between the ages of 14 and 16. This government must take a stand in If we compare ATVs to motor vehicles, protecting all children.

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Next, the issue of child development. With their lives and kills more youth and young an increased emphasis in recent years on adults than all other causes combined. healthy child development, we’ve learned a Preventable injuries cost PEI $74 million a great deal about how children learn, develop year, and we know that injuries resulting judgement and, in fact, how they literally see from ATV crashes are serious. A the world at different ages and stages. This conservative estimate of the cost to the knowledge can be applied to the ATV issue. healthcare system and society for someone This research is referenced in a position like my cousin, over the course of his statement of the Canadian Pediatric Society, lifetime, is a staggering $4 million. copies of which Dr. Wong provided with his presentation. You have an excellent opportunity to listen to the voices of those children and youth The research identifies a combination of who have died or been seriously injured and factors - physical size and strength, who speak to us as statistics. Let not their knowledge and cognitive and motor skills - tragedies be in vain. They are not just that all play a part in whether someone can statistics. They are someone’s son, operate an ATV safely. Based on sound someone’s best friend. You have the research, it is clear that until one reaches the opportunity to be a leader in this issue, to go age of 16 one does not have all these factors beyond what Newfoundland and Labrador in place to operate such a machine, and no and Nova Scotia have recommended, and to amount of training can offset this deficit. lead this country in taking a strong stand to prevent further childhood and family In fact, in the North American guidelines for devastation from all-terrain vehicles. children working around a farm, they have a detailed checklist to assess these various As responsible leaders for this province, you developmental components and recommend, have a perfect opportunity to amend the just like the Canadian Pediatric Society, that regulations of the PEI Off-Highway Vehicle ATVs be used for youth ages 16 and above. Act to ensure that children under the age of 16 are not allowed to operate any size of I must add a sidebar about supervision. ATV or snowmobile. Anyone who’s a parent knows it is absolutely impossible to supervise a child Thank you. closely enough to prevent them from injury. These incidents can happen in the blink of Chair: Does the committee have any an eye and no parent is superhuman. questions to Ms. Lockhart?

Finally, the issue of cost. In 2003 the Mr. P. Brown: (Indistinct) more in the way Atlantic Network for Injury Prevention, with of a comment. its national partner SMARTRISK, released the Economic Burden of Unintentional Chair: Mr. Brown. Injury in Canada report. This report details the cost of injuries across the region and in Mr. P. Brown: Nice to see you again, Sally. each Atlantic province. Within hours of that release, the Nova Scotia government showed Sally Lockhart: Yes, thanks, Philip. its leadership by announcing commitment to the development of an injury prevention Mr. P. Brown: It goes back a ways. I want strategy for the province and has followed to thank you and the previous presenter for through with this. Injury is the leading killer the very thoughtful presentations, certainly a and disabler of Canadians in the prime of lot of comments.

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The previous presenter pointed out - and good thing or a bad thing. you, to a degree - there are different sizes of machines and we see them advertised. Like, Chair: Any other questions? I was at Canadian Tire over the weekend. In anticipation of our meetings I wanted to Mr. Currie: Yes, Sally, I’m just wondering make sure I saw the machine there, and it’s a why you feel that parents don’t have the 90 cc, I think it was. They were obviously ability to supervise their children? designed for the smaller rider, but you still have very much concerns about the smaller Sally Lockhart: I think parents can rider’s ability to be able to navigate them supervise their children. I’m saying it’s an properly? inhuman task. As any parent, you know, you can be watching your child and that Sally Lockhart: There’s a number of issues something can happen. I think parents want here. One is that there’s no evidence to show to keep their children out of harm’s way. I that those smaller machines are safer. It’s truly think parents want to keep their my understanding that there is even less children safe. What they may not understand regulation around those machines than there sometimes are: What are the risks, what’s are on the adult-sized ones in terms of safety the relative risk of certain activities? What specifications. I’m saying is we now know that an ATV in the hands of someone under the age of 16 is Mr. P. Brown: Yeah, I was a little not a safe activity for this age group, concerned. One was a drive shaft. It was regardless of the supervision. I mean, a driven with a drive shaft, but the other, the parent can be in the machine right behind - chain was exposed more than I would have in fact, parents have said they’ve been in the been comfortable with if it was my son or machine right behind and something has daughter on it. happened and they can’t control that.

Sally Lockhart: Your farm safety is coming Mr. Currie: Well, they can control whether through? Yeah. their children gets on the machine or not.

Chair: Any more questions? Mr. Ghiz. Sally Lockhart: They can control whether the children do get on the machine. What we Leader of the Opposition: You mention in have found, though, that it gives parents an here ATVs and snowmobiles. What’s your added argument when there’s a law in place. interpretation of a controlled environment It gives parents that strong signal that the where there are dirt bikes racing or things government truly feels, has looked at all the along there where they wear protective gear evidence, and that this is something that is and there is kind of training and there are not acceptable. It gives parents that extra tracks and things such as that? clout.

Sally Lockhart: Unfortunately, I don’t have Chair: Mr. MacKinley. the data on those types of injuries. My sense would be, because the speed and the mass Mr. MacKinley: Yeah, you go back to the are slower, they would fall into that slightly law. We can make all the laws we want, but lesser serious. So there could be fractures, if there’s nobody around to enforce them - whatever. But potential, and this is my guess, it may not be as heavy for head and Sally Lockhart: You know, it’s interesting spinal cord injuries. Beyond that, I’m not you say that, Mr. MacKinley. prepared to comment on whether they’re a

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Mr. MacKinley: - that’s where the problem onus on the person driving to watch where is. you are. Like, I wouldn’t take my half-ton truck and just start driving through Sally Lockhart: Yeah, some of the research somebody’s field in case I ran into a hole. actually shows that just putting the law in Like, there is - place actually increases compliance. It’s quite interesting. Even without the Sally Lockhart: Yeah, yeah. enforcement on seatbelt issues. There are a certain number of people, once the law is in Mr. MacKinley: - and if there’s no ATV place, they will comply. I think we also need trails that I know about on PEI, like if there to be creative on enforcement. I think we was an ATV trail - let’s say they came out can learn from other jurisdictions how they and we had a trail and that’s where ATVs police snowmobile trails and ATV trails. I can go. Then you could probably police it. think there’s all kinds of things that we can But if you’ve got them all over the place, look at. driving everywhere, like just - how do you police it? I know you’re going to get some Mr. MacKinley: Yeah, but I know, all right, compliance, but look at, for instance, our the Ski-Doo trails, I think that’s a good idea record here on deaths. I think we’re double because they’re policing themselves on these the national average. trails and the groomers, etc. I believe they have people that go around policing them. Sally Lockhart: We were in 2004, yes. But where are the ATV trails? I don’t think there are any ATV trails that I know about Mr. MacKinley: Yes, double the national on PEI. average, and if you read the police reports, it’s because people weren’t wearing Sally Lockhart: Our back road is what they seatbelts, impaired driving, I guess, maybe use up west, among others. some other things.

Mr. MacKinley: Well, it’s illegal to be on Sally Lockhart: Yeah. the back roads though. Mr. MacKinley: So if they’re not enforcing Sally Lockhart: Well, it’s a wood road. that section, how can we expect them to enforce this? Mr. MacKinley: No, but I’m saying, it’s illegal to be there. Sally Lockhart: I don’t see that as an argument for not putting in the amendment. Sally Lockhart: Yeah, I know, yeah. We Frankly, I just don’t see that - don’t have official ones, to my knowledge, but that could be work of this Committee. Mr. MacKinley: I’m not arguing against not putting it in, but I’m just - Mr. MacKinley: No, what we need is - in order to police them - like the Ski-Doos, I Sally Lockhart: Okay, okay, sure. think they’ve come a long ways. I think Ski-Doos are fairly dangerous. I drove them Mr. MacKinley: I’m just putting out that myself. They’re good if you’re driving we can put in all the - properly. But there’s one lady here that was going through a field and she hit posts in the Sally Lockhart: I think we need to field. But you know, was that in the collectively look at, as what Dr. Wong said daytime? Was that after night? There’s an and I would say, we need to very collectively

10 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 look at: What is the onus on the community, Chair: Okay, do you have anything to hand what is the onus on the law enforcement out to us? sector, and on the operators themselves for policing? Margaret MacKay: I just left it with your -

Mr. MacKinley: You can make all the laws Chair: Not that you have to do it. I just want you want and we can come out here and we to make sure that we accommodate you, come out with a committee report that you that’s all. Have you got a - you do? Okay, got to be 16, or 18 for that matter, and it’s that’s fine. law. But that’s not going to make it any safer for those people driving unless they have the Margaret MacKay: I have a presentation I proper trails and groomed areas or whatever, just left with Marian. I’m not going to read to go on. Because in rural PEI, a tree can fall the whole presentation. I’m going to sort of down, farmers farm, etc. People mightn’t be give you overviews in the interest of - 15 aware of, in empty fields, you’re going minutes is not a lot of time. through here and there. I mean, like, you wouldn’t take - Chair: We want to accommodate you, so relax. Sally Lockhart: Yes, there’s lots of issues. Margaret Mackay: Yeah, but I don’t want Mr. MacKinley: You wouldn’t go and buy to bore you. a new car and start driving through somebody’s back fields over the hills is all Chair: Listen, we’re not bored, not bored, I’m saying. ever.

Sally Lockhart: Right. Margaret MacKay: I’m representing myself. I am a walker and I walk the Chair: Mr. Dunn. Last question. Confederation Trail a lot. I want to thank you for the opportunity to come in here and Mr. Dunn: I don’t have any questions. make a presentation. Chair: Oh, you don’t have any questions. I’ve left a number of pictures with Marian, and it’ll give you some idea of what I run Thanks, Ms. Lockhart, Sally. Appreciate across on the Confederation Trail. I’m not your very well prepared presentation. Thank going to condemn dirt bikes. I’m not going you. to condemn ATVs. There’s a certain number of people that are a problem. Sally Lockhart: You’re very welcome. Thank you. I do think that your attempt to amend your act is a good idea. You’re putting the onus Chair: Dr. Wong, as well. I think I thanked on the members of the owners - you’re not - him before. I thank him again. the owners/operators and that’s a good place to start. Now usually the ones that I have a We’ll now call on Margaret MacKay. problem with - the first one I encountered Margaret, thank you for joining us. that was really serious was a 10-year old child. I’ve encountered this child a lot. He’s Margaret MacKay: Thank you for having now about 12 years of age. I usually go out me. and I carry a camera and a phone, and as soon as I get some pictures I usually call the

11 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 police. We’ve had a little luck in getting a I’m going to get to in a minute is determent, few charges, not a lot. But we’ve had a little enforcement and determent. The other thing luck. It’s taken a lot of hard work. that is a problem in your act at present that you’re not proposing for amendment is the I guess one thing I’m concerned about is fact that it states in section 23 that the what you mean by directly supervised when Highway Traffic Act does not apply to any you go to define it in your act. You mention matters relating to off-highway vehicles to directly supervised. Directly supervised can which this act applies. But yet you’re talking be my boss directly supervising me but he a valid driver’s license which would be doesn’t sit over me. So I think maybe you covered in the Highway Traffic Act and need to better define directly supervised in you’re also talking about speeds. It refers in your act. section 3 of 12 to speed limits in the Highway Traffic Act. So it’s questionable Another place that I see a problem - now one whether - a good lawyer will probably tell place we’re having a problem in the area you, because it states at the end that the where I live - I’m in the Summerside area. Highway Traffic Act does not apply, that you The farmers are not at all happy about the can’t apply anything in the act. So probably, ATVers. There have been several times from an enforcement point of view, you’re there have been confrontations and I would probably in trouble there. be a little afraid that there will be somebody hurt out of it. We’ve had cases where Now on enforcement, it’s a major problem farmers have chased the guys on the ATVs on the ATVs. I’m going to quote you a on the trails and on the road with them. So I situation where a police car - I had got a wouldn’t want to see that happen. They are picture, I called the police. The police met getting into the fields and they are damaging the guy on the Slemon Park trail. I gave the fields. them enough information and we knew from tracks that he was in Slemon Park, that he I guess the other part of the act that you’re was travelling the Slemon Park trail. The not bringing up for amendments that I do police started down and met him, was left have concerns about is the fines. The present than 10 feet from him. The guy turned fines in there run from 50 to $200. Now around right in front of him and hightailed it some time ago the act I think involving the out of there. Confederation Trail was increased to a $2,000 limit. It was quite high. Minister Another case was where I had got some Brown changed it back to $50 last year and pictures of two ATVers. One showed up in immediately after that we saw a lot of ATVs Miscouche. What happened with the guy in on the trails. Miscouche was the police put the car right across the trail on the highway to block off Mr. R. Brown: That Mr. Brown. him coming up to the trail. He drove right around and he ignored the roof lights on and Margaret MacKay: I mean that Minister everything. Kept going. Brown. Now these are tales that the police are telling Mr. P. Brown: (Indistinct). me on what’s happening. We’ve had some success laying charges. We’ve had one case Mr. MacKinley: (Indistinct) fines, as long where a guy was caught with a dirt bike and as you’re putting them up. he was charged and he paid a $60 fine.

Margaret MacKay: Well, the problem that Now in another case I got pictures. One of

12 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 the problems was the guy was a drug dealer. boasting to the police when the police talked He was smart enough to put his head down to him about it that the kid has been driving like this and we couldn’t get a picture of his an ATV since he was four years old. So face so the police couldn’t charge him from what do you do? I don’t know. I don’t envy the pictures. He was using the Confederation you people here at this Committee trying to Trail to drive his drugs back and forth to his make a decision on where you’re going to go customers. with this. Right now the police or the ATVers are Anyway, I hope you can do something. I running very heavy on the trails. Now you don’t want to have to go walk at 5:00 a.m. fellows refused them twice and told them when they’re not out there, and that’s all I they couldn’t go on, but I don’t know got to say. whether they got agreement with the snowmobilers, but they’re out there and Mr. MacKinley: You said there used to be a they’re out there heavy. The tracks are there $2,000 fine, but it’s down to 50? every morning. They’re running at night. Margaret MacKay: I think it was up to Some method of enforcement in this act has 2,000, I could be wrong on that. You would to be found. The trail police are useless. know better than me. They can’t catch them. The RCMP can’t catch them. If they can get on the trails - Mr. P. Brown: I’d just like to clarify. First now I’ve been in a police car on the trails of all, thanks. I don’t know how you want to with them with no success. Like, it’s a lost do this, Mr. Chair. cause. They’re long gone before the police get there. Chair: You are next.

To identify them is a problem because none Mr. P. Brown: I just want to clarify because of them - unless the bikes are marked with - numbers, can’t identify them. You can’t see what their face looks like with their watcha Margaret MacKay: Minister, would you colours, and you’ll see that in the first few please talk into your mike? I can’t hear you pictures. Those guys that came down the if you don’t. trail and that was in November and what they did was they speeded up when they got Mr. R. Brown: The mike doesn’t affect to the intersection on Kensington Road and that. Miscouche and they didn’t even stop for the stop sign. They drove right across. But I Mr. P. Brown: The mike should pick it up. scared them off when I was taking pictures, I’m not usually accused of being hard to because what they did was they then hear. hightailed it back up the French shore and headed back to where they came from. I Margaret MacKay: It’s me that’s hard to don’t know where they came from. I’ve hear. never seen them since. But it is an ongoing problem. The kids with dirt bikes are an Mr. P. Brown: Okay. Right, Mr. Brown. ongoing problem. Mr. R. Brown: Yes, Mr. Brown. I have to walk for health reasons and it’s scary some days. This 10-year old kid, the Mr. P. Brown: Just on that, what we tried father has the attitude that he’s been - was to do -

13 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Margaret MacKay: Minister Brown. Now the minimum is 50 and the maximum is still 2,000. But it’s the discretion of the Mr. P. Brown: - with the Trails Act, we charging officer to apply the fine between tried to make it consistent with the Highway the minimum and the maximum. If the Safety Act, and what we were targeting in offence - that particular case in reducing the fine - we didn’t reduce the maximum. What we did Mr. MacKinley: That’s up to the judge. reduce was the minimum fine from 200 to 50. The inconsistency there was that to drive Mr. P. Brown: Just excuse me, Mr. without a bicycle helmet on the road was a MacKinley. If the offence is seen to fit the $50 fine, on the Confederation Trail was a minimum - which we were trying to bring $200 fine. So all we did was reduce the them consistent - then the $2,000 fine is still minimum fine that people could assess. there, and can be applied for an issue that’s serious, which I think is what you’re saying As you might be aware, trail officers were is, that the use of ATVs on the empowered through the Summary Confederation Trail is a serious issue. Proceedings Act to issue tickets. There was a bit of concern that they were issuing Margaret MacKay: It is, but I guess where tickets that were inconsistent. For example, I have a problem - and I agree with Ronnie - if a child was driving a bicycle down the is that I’ve been in court too. The judge road without a bicycle helmet on, when they usually, in the first charge, applies the were on the side of the road they were minimum fine. Like, my fine was $60. I’m subject to a $50 fine. When they went on the not going to tell you what it was for. Confederation Trail, they were subject to a $200 fine. So we’ve just made those Mr. P. Brown: Okay. consistent. The maximum fine didn’t decrease. Margaret MacKay: So I mean, if a guy knows he’s going to pay $50, he doesn’t Margaret MacKay: I guess where I don’t care. If I’m speeding and I’m only going to see the consistency is the fact that the pay $50, I don’t care, you know. If I know bicycle helmet is to protect the child. I’m going to pay a dollar for every mile over, I do care. Mr. P. Brown: Right. Mr. P. Brown: Yes, I know. Margaret MacKay: There’s no bicycle helmet to protect me from the ATVs. Margaret MacKay: But I mean, I guess the real onus has to be with the parents, the Mr. P. Brown: I know, I know. owners of the vehicles. I see this as doing that. I think you’ve got a good idea. Margaret MacKay: So there’s a little inconsistency in your reasoning in it. So I Mr. P. Brown: Just one other as a - because see heavier fines as a deterrent. I see seizing you brought up the issue of the trails at the vehicles as an excellent deterrent. Because present time. This winter, because of almost when the fine was $200, you didn’t see as no snow, has afforded a lot of people to many ATVs out there. utilize the trail that normally it is restricted for snowmobile use. From the first of Mr. P. Brown: But no, I won’t complicate December to the end of April, the trail at the the issue, but just to say that the fine was a present time is under lease to the PEI minimum of 200 and a maximum of 2,000. Snowmobile Association. Really, there

14 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 should be no one on the trail except for suggest that - snowmobilers, because they have a legal lease to that trail at the present time. But we Margaret MacKay: Sorry, I can’t hear, are aware that the gates are open. They have Mike. to be open because of snowmobile use. That has afforded motorized vehicles an Mr. Currie: Did you suggest that there opportunity to use the trail much more than would be favour fines for parents, for those normal when there’s two feet of snow on it. that are under age? Did I hear you say that in your comments? Margaret MacKay: It’s happening all year round. Margaret MacKay: I can’t hear you, I’m sorry. Mr. P. Brown: It is. Mr. Currie: Did you say in your comments Margaret MacKay: I mean, here’s one that you favoured fines for parents for those example where this is a kid that came out of children that were under age? Kelly Drive on an ATV and he got into ice in the woods, that second picture. He Margaret MacKay: Favoured which? swerved all over everywhere and he did end up in the ditch a couple of times. I didn’t see Mr. Currie: Fines. him do it, but I saw the marks. This was last - it happened sometime between the storm Mr. R. Brown: Fines. on Wednesday and Saturday. Margaret MacKay: I favour probably Chair: Mr. Dunn I think is next. between fines and seizing the ATVs. If they thought they’d lose the ATVs for two or Mr. Dunn: Just a quick question, going three days, it might do some good. One back to the trail. Who should use the trail? police officer told some clients or some people that I’ve caught on the trails that, and Margaret MacKay: I walk it year round. that ended them on the trails.

Mr. Dunn: Who should use it? Who should Mr. Currie: I hear your story today and be allowed to use it? certainly it’s one of - you’re running into some unfortunate incidents. But I don’t think Margaret MacKay: I guess that’s not really it’s probably fair to say everybody does that. for me to determine. I’m out there for health reasons. I feel I want to be safe. I’m not sure, Margaret MacKay: No, I’m not either. with every motorized vehicle on there, including cars, that I would feel safe. It’s not Mr. Currie: We have a role here to find a that wide. I would say bikes, bikers, walkers, balance of one of protection and allowing hikers, snowmobilers. If the snowmobilers people to use the vehicles, I guess, in a didn’t groom the trails, I wouldn’t be out proper manner and to be trained properly. So there walking at this time of the year too, that’s our role here. Certainly, I appreciate and they’re quite polite to me. your comments.

Chair: Sorry, Mr. Currie is next and then Margaret MacKay: I certainly agree with Mr. MacKinley. that. I think that’s an excellent idea that they are properly trained, but I don’t think a four Mr. Currie: Margaret, did I hear you or a 10-year old child should be on them, or

15 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 even a 12-year old child. Mr. Dunn: Why are you raising that with me? Mr. Currie: I hear you. Mr. MacKinley: You brought it up. You Margaret MacKay: I think maybe that said about who was allowed the use of the might be solved with the parent getting a trails. brain transplant. Like, it’s hard to say what to do about that one. Mr. Dunn: I just asked her for her opinion.

Mr. Currie: Yes. Mr. MacKinley: No, you said, who -

Margaret MacKay: But I mean, the police, Margaret MacKay: Yeah, but I don’t enact their hands are tied. The Young Offenders the law. It’s you gentlemen that do. Act is useless when it comes to dealing with youth now because they started off: Take Mr. MacKinley: You put this - them home, the next one’s a warning, the next one’s a written, and then after that they Mr. Dunn: That’s what we’re having a might charge them. hearing, though, to get people’s opinions.

Mr. Currie: Thank you. Mr. MacKinley: No, but the law is already there. It’s not her job to know the law. She Chair: Mr. MacKinley. walks on the trails. It’s our job to know the laws, you vote for them in the House. Going Mr. MacKinley: Going back to a question by the law, no motorized vehicles are you asked about dropping the fines from allowed on those trails except the Ski-Doos 2,000 to 50. The correctional officer issues a have a lease in the winter, and the walkers fine and they charge them under the and hikers have it in the summer. That’s the Highway Traffic Act or whatever act they go law, unless the government changes the law under where they have authority. Then it’s to allow ATVs which they had requested to up to the judge to decide what that fine will use the ATVs on it. But the government be. So as soon as you’ve lowered it, you’ve turned them down. I just want to explain to dropped the bar that somebody will just go you the law. But I don’t think it’s all in and pay the $50 fine. That’s how the law (Indistinct) - works. Mr. Dunn: I know the law, I just wanted her Margaret MacKay: Yes, and that’s what opinion. I know the law. the result was, that they were back on the trails. Mr. MacKinley: You didn’t ask her, (Indistinct) but I’m not arguing with it. You Mr. MacKinley: Now there’s all kinds of (Indistinct). proof here that there are ATVs used on the Confederation Trail. For Mr. Dunn, the Margaret MacKay: You didn’t do it that Member from Alberton-Miminegash, it says: way, Mr. Dunn. No trucks, motorcycles, ATVs goes by - I think that’s the law that’s brought in by your Mr. Dunn: I asked you what’s your opinion. government that supports and if you want to I said: Who should use the trail? I wanted to change the law, then you’d have to change know what your opinion on who should be the law. allowed on the trail.

16 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Leader of the Opposition: (Indistinct). trails and find out.

Margaret MacKay: I know ATVs are very Mr. MacKinley: I could use it. popular up in the western part of the Island and I know they’re on the trails and I know An Hon. Member: He is doing some somebody’s been killed up there on the trails walking. He is losing weight. with one that ran into a tree. Chair: Okay, Ms. MacKay, thanks for your Mr. MacKinley: But also, I don’t want to input. We appreciate your response, and blame it all on under 16 year olds either. I thanks for coming. would say, by the look of some of these pictures - The next presenter is Scott Anderson. I understand there’s an electronic setup, Mr. Margaret MacKay: Those are the same Anderson? Could we have that? people over and over again in most cases. Scott Anderson: I’ll just need a couple of Mr. MacKinley: - those are probably 17, minutes to set it up. 18, 20 or 30, they could be. Like, it’s not all our youth, at under, say, 16 is not the ones Chair: Okay. Can we just take a five-minute that are causing all the trouble too. It’s all break while we set up this presentation? the big boys or the big ladies with their - Everybody can stand up or sit down or whatever. We’ll just give him a few minutes. Margaret MacKay: A few of them, not many. [There was a five minute recess]

Mr. MacKinley: What? Chair: Could we have the Committee members takes their seats? Margaret MacKay: A few of them, not many. We have a Mr. Scott Anderson who will be making an electronic presentation, but Mr. MacKinley: I’ve seen them around in before we do that we have three very our area. pleasant looking young ladies who want to make a brief presentation. They’ve got a Margaret MacKay: It’s more of the youth. petition. I understand their leader is Megan Gallant and she’s going to just tell us very Mr. MacKinley: There’s a lot of 20-years briefly what she’s here for and something olds, 18-year olds, 25-year olds. about her petition.

Margaret MacKay: Maybe in your area. Would you like to introduce your colleagues there with you and read that into the record? Mr. MacKinley: I can’t speak for your area. But anyway. Meagan Gallant: This is Kelsey MacIsaac and Emma Gallant. We’re here to represent Margaret MacKay: Yeah. Come and walk four-wheelers because we don’t think it’s it, Ronnie. fair that you get to ban them for kids under 16. I have a 155 people on my petition that Mr. MacKinley: What? are kids that think it’s unfair.

Margaret MacKay: Come on and walk the Chair: Okay. Is there any other - do you

17 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 colleagues want to say hello to the Meagan Gallant: In Mermaid. Committee? Leader of the Opposition: In Mermaid. So Kelsey MacIsaac: No. you use it to go and visit some friends and drive on the property and do those sorts of Chair: Friends, aye? Does the Committee things. Do you wear a helmet when you go have any questions? out on it?

Okay, Mr. Ghiz. Meagan Gallant: Yes.

Leader of the Opposition: Great Leader of the Opposition: Have you had presentation. How long have you been any accidents? driving an ATV for? Meagan Gallant: No. Meagan Gallant: Since I was six. Leader of the Opposition: Did your parents Leader of the Opposition: And how old are teach you how to drive? you now? Meagan Gallant: Yes. Meagan Gallant: Ten. Leader of the Opposition: Good. Leader of the Opposition: Ten. Do you know what the cc is on your ATV? Do you Chair: Mr. Brown. Hon. Philip. know how fast it goes? Mr. P. Brown: I commend you for coming Mr. R. Brown: It’s the motor size. before our Committee today. Your two friends, they are, how old are you? Leader of the Opposition: Motor size, sorry. Kelsey MacIsaac: Me?

Mr. R. Brown: The size of your bike. Mr. P. Brown: Yes.

Meagan Gallant: It’s a 90. Kelsey MacIsaac: I’m 11.

Leader of the Opposition: It’s a 90. What Mr. P. Brown: You’re 11 and you’ve been do you use it for? driving an ATV for -

Meagan Gallant: To drive on trails. Two Kelsey MacIsaac: Actually, dirt bike. other kids on my road have four-wheelers and we go in the fields and stuff. Meagan Gallant: Talk in here.

Leader of the Opposition: Yes. So you live Kelsey MacIsaac: I’m 11 and I’ve been out in rural Prince Edward Island then. driving a dirt bike. I first drove my own when I was six, I think, but my dad would Meagan Gallant: Yes. take me on them when I was younger.

Leader of the Opposition: Where do you Mr. P. Brown: The ATVs, any of the three live? of you or your friends, do you use them for - because I know the people in our area use

18 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 them for fishing and also around farms, that Kelsey MacIsaac: I’d do it. sometimes they’re used - well, in the case of farms it could be to view or to move Meagan Gallant: Yes, that’d be okay. livestock around. Do you use them for that or is it completely recreation? Mr. Currie: Thank you.

Kelsey MacIsaac: I dirt bike race. Chair: Any other Committee - Mr. MacKinley. Mr. P. Brown: You dirt bike. Mr. MacKinley: What age did you start Kelsey MacIsaac: We’re building a track by driving an ATV at or dirt bike? our house this summer for dirt biking and we’re never on the dirt bikes without my dad Kelsey MacIsaac: We both started when we or my mom watching us. were six.

Mr. P. Brown: Okay, just one final Mr. MacKinley: All right. question. You told us that your machine was 90 cc’s So are you saying - or any of the Kelsey MacIsaac: I’ve been on dirt bikes three of you - do you think that people under with my dad before. I’ve always worn a 16 should be restricted to using smaller helmet, though. machines? By extension, does that become difficult if you feel like: Okay, I like my 90 Mr. MacKinley: Yes, all right. So you were cc ATV, but my brother who’s 16 can drive telling Mr. Brown there, if you can’t reach the bigger one and I’d like to drive that some pedals you can’t drive them. Is that what you too? The temptation would certainly be there were trying to say to him? to say: I want to drive the big one sometimes. Wouldn’t you find it frustration Kelsey MacIsaac: Yes. to wait till you’re 16 to get on the bigger one? Mr. MacKinley: Yes, the bigger bikes are higher. Kelsey MacIsaac: It sort of would be but the bigger the cc’s they get, like the taller Kelsey MacIsaac: And if you can’t get your they get. So if you can’t touch you can’t leg over the seat, well, you just can’t drive it. drive it. It’s really simple. Mr. MacKinley: No, can’t manoeuver it. Mr. P. Brown: Right. Good. What would you think if they came in with laws saying that you couldn’t drive a dirt Chair: Mr. Currie, I think wants a question. bike until you were 16 years old, or an ATV? Mr. Currie: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Kelsey MacIsaac: That’s my favourite thing in the summer. I’m always careful on it and I I’m glad to hear that you wear your helmets, only go as fast as I can. My dad is always and I’m glad to hear that your mom and dad telling me: Don’t go faster than you can. teach you how to drive them. Would you You’ve got to go slow before you can go agree, the three of you, to take an advanced fast. training course on the proper driving of ATVs and motorcycles? Mr. MacKinley: I know. I started driving a farm tractor, I think I was about eight or

19 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 nine. I wouldn’t recommend it to anybody, Scott Anderson: Okay. Thank you, Mr. but you’re sort of brought up on a farm and Chairman. you were put on the hay loader to steer it straight when you were about six or seven, Before I begin, I guess the topic today for and then you sort of gradually built in to me anyway is safety training. But a bit of learn to drive it. The worse fall I ever got background about myself. I live and work was off a Newfoundland pony I had. Now as here in PEI. I’m an engineer with the far as being dangerous - but it’s a fact. I Provincial Department of Agriculture. At mean, ponies - our work unit we use ATVs substantially for the work that we do - off-road surveying and Mr. R. Brown: Was it a four-legged pony? construction - and they’re a vital part of our day to day work. But the new regulations Mr. MacKinley: There’s riders. People ride that are ongoing with Occupational Health horseback. I was on it probably around nine and Safety, they dictated that all staff that years old, ten year old, I got one, and the use these machines needed safety training. I horse stopped quick and I went right over was selected to take the safety training the fence. course and hence I give the course to any new employees that need it. So that’s the Mr. R. Brown: Good pony. background, and I’ll begin my presentation.

Mr. MacKinley: No, but I’m just saying, You’ve probably seen this slide before. It and I mean I took an awful blow on the deals with the sales of these ATVs shoulders that time. nationally. They’re quite popular as you can see, and in every province it’s the same way. Mr. Dunn: (Indistinct). But the same as anything, the more of these units that are on the go now there’s a rise in Mr. MacKinley: But all I’m saying is that injuries. A lot of them are preventable you talk about ATVs, but it all comes back injuries. Common factors are speed, to the proper training. Like, you know, if inexperience, lack of safety equipment, you’re trained to do it. non-use of helmets, and drinking and driving are fairly common news stories. Chair: Okay, Meagan, thank you for our input. Would you like to bring your petition One stat there I saw, it’s an American stat: up and we’ll make sure - oh, there it goes, ATV injuries are more likely to happen to the Clerk of Committees is getting it. boys age 15 to 19 than any other group. That Thanks for your input, we appreciate you same study found that only 4% of these being here. drivers had any formal ATV training.

Mr. R. Brown: Great job. A few pictures that you may find of interest, and quite common pictures that you see on Meagan Gallant: Thank you. the Internet and publications. ATV can be a fun sport to take part in, but again, the risks Chair: Good luck. are always there. Here’s a picture of a young fellow with no helmet on. It’s not always Okay, Scott, where are you? Thanks for your young fellows that we have the trouble with patience. We’ll now have a presentation too. This gentleman here, he’s looking at from Scott Anderson. If you want to watch quite a spill there, I think, potentially, and no the screen. I think you’ll have a reference to helmet again. This chap here, I don’t know that item. So, go ahead. what he had in mind there but, you know,

20 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 some of the activity that you do see you’ve course, one-day course, operated by certified got to wonder why it happens. instructors, which present sort of a fun day and a hands-on practical type of a day to Mr. P. Brown: His helmet’s not CSA learn proper operation of ATVs and just approved. familiarise people with how they operate the controls. Because some are newer riders and Scott Anderson: No, it’s Canadian - not some are more experienced, but I find, Canadian Tire, Marks Work Warehouse. regardless of your amount of time riding Another fellow that should know better, I one, people tend to come away from this think, is to wear safety equipment. course, you know, picking up something. I’m not going to preach a whole lot today, You learn the basic techniques for riding an but just the things that I see from a safety ATV. The Canada Safety Council itself, it’s point of view. You’ve always got to wear always sort of upgrading and looking for your proper safety equipment, helmets new pertinent information that can be especially. incorporated into the course. So the course itself will change in the future as machines Next is never ride with a passenger. I know change or different issues do arise. The most people have done it and will continue instructors are graduates of the five-day to do so, but ATVs are not designed to ride Canada Safety Council instructor with two people. Some of the newer ones preparation course and there are standards are, and you can buy them specifically made that the instructors have to follow. They for two up riding, but the accidents that have to teach the course to established we’ve seen in Nova Scotia and New standards. That’s the main one. Can’t really Brunswick lately, with the deaths, I think deviate. We have to stick right to the every one of those has involved two or more curriculum. The instructors, they also have people on an ATV. an oath, I guess you could say, to maintain current technical knowledge of ATVs and Don’t drink and drive. That’s a given. maintain communication with the Canada Safety Council at all times. Promote quality Another, it’s not really a safety concern, but programs. Attend all updates required of a concern especially in this province with no them, and themselves maintain proficient dedicated trails, there’s a lot of trespassing riding skills at all times and exhibit that goes on, on property that’s not your professional conduct and appearance. own, and it’s more of a nuisance factor than anything. So when the person signs up to take a course, they’re responsible for ensuring that Minimum age restrictions. Each the ATV that they use at the course is manufacturer states - and it’s right on the registered and in good operating condition. machines - the age that is allowed to ride the They’re responsible to show up with all the specific machine. Generally until you’re 16 proper safety gear. If they don’t meet either years old you cannot operate a machine that or any of these requirements, they’re sent is over 90 cc’s That’s dictated by Canada home. Safety Council, Canadian ATV Distributors which represents all the manufacturers. So I’m going to talk about now the course itself, what’s involved with it. There’s a So I guess what I’ll talk about from now on graphic I found just dealing with the things in is the Canada Safety Council ATV Rider that are covered on the course but I’ll go Course. What it is, it’s a five and a half hour over them briefly here. What you see is the

21 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 actual course layout. It takes about, as far as session and we’re done. land space goes, an acre worth of land. It’s a fairly big riding area that we do use for the A few pictures here I got from a rider course course. It involves a lot of turning and figure that’s offered by a group in Ontario. Just eights, stopping and breaking. But when gives you an idea of what it looks like out in they show up in the morning for the course, the field. The first picture the guys going we’ll go over what’s required of them in the over the introduction to the course probably course, what they’re going to learn. We’ll do and what’s expected of the riders for the a pre-ride inspection of all the ATVs to day. They start off going over each machine, make sure that they are up to snuff and will you know, going differently. Not all pass the safety criteria. I go over the rules for machines are the same. There are little on the range. There are hand signals that differences between manufactures, but we’ll use. We’ll go over the controls on the basically the same principles. Then we ATVs for the more inexperienced riders. actually start to drive and you’re breaking, We’ll teach them proper ways to start and turning, figure eights. The idea is to get stop the engine, proper ways to start driving everybody more proficient as the day goes and shift gears, proper ways to brake the on. So speeds will pick up a little bit as long machine, go over the riding strategies they’ll as the comfort level is there. Again, the hill learn. training is always a kind of a fun thing to do, and the trail ride. You always, you know, look ahead and anticipate any problems that you may come At the end of the course each student that across when you’re driving. We’ll go over passes does receive a certificate of the basic turning principles, you know, completion and a wallet card from Canada weight shift, body position, and then we’ll Safety Council, a helmet sticker that goes on get into the course a little more, doing the back of your helmet - it’s a reflective circles and figure eights, you know, helmet sticker - again saying that you are a increasing speed as their comfort level successful graduate from the course. They increases. Go over the turning procedures: keep the rider course handbook that’s given sharp turns, quick turns, emergency stopping to them. It’s a fairly thick little document of procedures. The next thing that we’ll do, I principles and practices to use. A CD believe it’s obstacles, how to properly ride distributed by the ATV Distributers Council. over obstacles. It’s called How to Ride Like a Pro. That lesson 16 is sort of in-class where you Some questions: Will safety training make go over environmental concerns. Then it’s you a better operator? I don’t really have the back out to the course where you touch base answer to that, but hopefully the answer is on how to, when you’re driving on hills, do yes. Regardless of the age and experience of U-turns properly, K-turns. What a K-turn is the rider, you know, if you apply safety is you’re going up a hill and you find you principles it should make you a better rider. can’t make it up to the top, it’s the proper way to get yourself turned around and back Will it reduce the number of accidents and down. The hills can be, you know, for the injuries? It’s hard to say, because operating inexperienced riders, quite a little session. an ATV is dangerous. They’re inherently a But once they get the confidence, then dangerous machine. But if you follow some they’re better off. At the end of the day we of these principles I think it will definitely do a trail ride to try to get them to exhibit to help. For younger riders, 16 and younger, I me that they’ve picked up on some of these still think parental supervision is the key. new principles. Then a quick wrap-up

22 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

My last point that I’ll make is that there’s no going to be a few people who are going to be substitute for common sense regardless of having some fun at that age. We were all your age. That’s all I have, so I’ll take a young one time and probably if you had couple of questions. somebody chasing you it’s like Halloween night when you went out. If nobody paid any Chair: Questions? Mr. MacKinley. attention to you, you went to another place where somebody came out and you probably Mr. MacKinley: You’re talking - there put on a little show. seems to be an age group. Now I farm and I have land and there’s a lot of farmers around Chair: Mr. McCardle next. our area, and we have no problem with the ATVs driving through our farm. Mr. McCardle:: Is there an (Indistinct) this course? Scott Anderson: Okay. Scott Anderson: If you look at the Mr. MacKinley: They seem to keep to the manufacturer’s recommendations, they call side of the fields, and once you approach for I believe children as young as six can one or two, and you mention it to them, and ride properly sized machines. So I guess they’ve even got trails set up, keep on a trail there is no real age restriction on taking the like, and they travel all through the course. But the course itself differs a little Cornwall-North River area over maybe a bit for the younger kids. For the younger age dozen different farms. group, I believe 6 to 12, you know, the parents have to take the course with them. I see them right through my potato yard, like Then the next step is 12 to 16 where, you right where I live because they cross the know, parental - they can stay if they want highway there. There’s definitely young to, but they don’t have to. Each of those people under 16. They seem to be very courses is tailored to the individuals. careful, but they have experience. I don’t know what they’re like starting out, but Mr. McCardle: So you provide this course everybody drives on the highway. You get a to employees in the provincial government. license at 16. It still takes you time to get Is that who you - that experience. We don’t, like maybe up west or down east, but in our area I don’t get Scott Anderson: Currently. Currently I do, any complaints from anybody about ATVs. but I’ve given it to Joe Public as well. You might get a few from some residents maybe riding too close to the back of their Mr. McCardle: On your own, as a private houses or that. But other than that - and they consultant or a trainer? seem careful and they don’t - you hear them coming and they slow down to go through Scott Anderson: It always seems to be sort the grading area where our trucks are of a combination of the two. Like, I’d run a because that’s the easiest way to get on the course for a couple of new employees and highway. I’d also have a couple of people on the list who want to take the course. I said: Next Scott Anderson: Yes. Well, that’s the time we offer one we’ll include you guys as thing. If they’re careful and courteous, it well. makes a big difference. Chair: Mr. Dunn. Mr. MacKinley: So there is , no matter who you are and what you do, there’s always Mr. Dunn: I don’t know if you’re the right

23 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 person to answer the question or not, but are We represent the manufacturers and they manufacturing three-wheelers again? distributors of these vehicles across Canada.

Scott Anderson: Not to my knowledge. CATV and MMIC are two national non-profit trade associations. Our member Mr. Dunn: I swore I saw one up west, a companies include some of the leading yellow one, a three-wheeler. I talked to some companies in Canada, and the two industries people and they said: Yes, they’re starting to together contribute approximately $3.6 manufacture again because they changed the billion to the Canadian economy. The steering in it. Apparently the steering was industries and related authorized dealers the problem before. You were going so fast employ approximately 14,000 people across and you turned your wheel, you kept going Canada. MMIC and CATV have worked straight ahead. But somebody said they with federal and provincial governments changed the steering mechanism in them across the country for over 30 years. now and they’re allowed through CSA to sell them again. I’d almost swear it was a We funded the motorcycle training program brand new one. across Canada since 1976. We developed and fund ATV riding training across Canada Scott Anderson: That’s news to me. I don’t since 1985. We commissioned a study on know. It may very well be. graduated licensing for motorcyclists in 1988 or 1989, I should say, and was one of Sally Lockhart: I can find out if you want the first organizations to support graduated me to. licensing. In 1991 we developed and implemented national vehicle equipment Mr. Dunn: I swear I saw a brand new one standards for all ATV, all of our member here within the last month. That’s when they companies, and in 2003 we updated those told me they changed the steering system on and have put them in place across Canada. it to allow to pass standards. We have also developed the ATV Nature Watch Program in conjunction with the Chair: Thank you, Scott. We appreciate Canadian Ecology Centre. your input and for the presentation. What are the industry priorities? We now call on Mr. Robert Ramsay who is the president of the Canadian ATV Our top priority has to be rider safety, and in Distributors Council. So we’ll just give you particular it has to be that youth health and a few minutes to take down the equipment. safety be protected as much as humanely possible. That safe and environmentally Okay, Mr. Ramsay, whenever you’re ready sound places to ride are needed. One of the you can begin. issues you’re dealing with today is ensuring that there are places to ride for ATVs and Robert Ramsay: Thank you. that, in and of itself, may address a lot of the issues that come forward. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, and ladies and gentlemen. Of course, farming and many small businesses rely on ATVs. I grew up on a My name is Robert Ramsay. I’m the farm. My family still owns and operates president of the Canadian All-Terrain farms across southern Ontario and they’re an Vehicle Distributors Council as well as the integral part of farming these days. Motorcycle and Moped Industry Council.

24 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

So let’s deal with the issues very quickly, question: Should children under 16 be one at a time. We have heard today many allowed to operate an ATV, an off-road different proposals. Some would have an motorcycle? They say: Under the proper outright ban on ATVs under 16. Others say conditions, absolutely. They have done that parents should have the responsibility of studies since 1983 right to 2004 that time determining if their child is old enough, and again says: Under the right conditions, responsible enough and capable enough of with the proper legislation, with the proper riding an ATV, a snowmobile or off-road responsibilities built into it, it is safe and it motorcycle. is responsible to allow children to ride an ATV, an off-road motorcycle. I am a father and a grandfather. I have a seven year old granddaughter and she loves A lot of that information that I provided to riding. She rides an ATV. She rides an you today actually deals with the most recent off-road motorcycle. I’m an uncle and most studies by the Consumer Product Safety of my nieces and nephews ride ATVs. Most Commission. It deals with looking at what of them also ride off-road motorcycles. should be done, what has happened, where is Some of them ride snowmobiles. I would this going? What they find is that there is no hate that privilege taken away from me as a increase in accidents or injury rates for father and a grandfather. But we do need to ATVs. Instead, what is happening is there’s put in place responsible regulations. We do a lot more ATVs out there. So as the number need to ensure that parents are given the of ATVs grow, as the number of people authority to work with their children to using ATVs, there are unfortunately more ensure that they receive proper training, to accidents. But relative to other usages and ensure that they receive proper education, relative to the last six years, there is no and we all need to be partners in that increase in accidents. There is no increase in approach. injuries and in fact, when compared to many other vehicles or many other activities, Now, we’ve heard examples that maybe ATVs are very safe. Off-road motorcycles ATVs are too large for children. Maybe we are very safe. shouldn’t allow children on there at all. But what we haven’t heard is that there are So what is the proper balance? Where do we ATVs that are 50 cc in size, that have a find balance in our regulations? That’s what maximum speed of 15 kilometres an hour, we are charged with, finding that proper and you can take that right down to one or balance. It’s not an easy question. Different two kilometres an hour. It can’t go faster provinces have put in place different than that, but it can go slower than that. If regulations, and I just want to compare two you look at the studies that are done, studies very quickly. The Province of Quebec a that are done by the consumer product safety number of years ago put in a prohibition division - this is the organization in the US under 14 years of age for anyone riding an which is charged with the responsibility of ATV. The Province of Ontario does not protecting consumers. Their mandate is not have that same prohibition. With proper from industry, their mandate is not from supervision anyone under 14 and over six health professionals. Their mandate is can ride an ATV. If you look at the most directly from the government of the US to recent accident statistics, both of those ensure the health and safety of all legislations have not changed since 1996. In consumers. the three most recent years, the numbers of fatalities in Quebec were actually double the What do they say about this? What do they number of fatalities in Ontario. Ontario say? Since 1983 they have looked at this requires proper supervision, requires

25 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 parental supervision, requires that children there need to be places to ride. There’s a lot under a certain age not be on vehicles over a of people, a lot of families that use ATVs. certain size. I grew up on a farm. From my standpoint, Where did they choose to draw the line? the people who are most responsible are the Well, in their wisdom, they relied on science children and the farmers themselves. They and on expertise. In their wisdom they know not to ride across a field. They’ll ride referred back to the Consumer Product along the edge. That’s their livelihood. Safety Commission, because the Consumer Unfortunately, not everyone grows up on a Product Safety Commission has been doing farm. In my opinion, that’s unfortunate. But these studies longer and in more depth than from the standpoint of those people who any other organization in the world. They need to know where to operate, if there is a have more experience, more history. They well-known place to operate, then the vast use child psychologists when they’re doing majority of people from this province will this. They use youth development. They take choose to operate on trails. I think that’s one all of these factors into account. This is not thing that really needs to be considered is theory. These are things that they have that there needs to be a place to ride. worked on for over 20 years and their recommendations are actually what the The final item, and this is dear to my heart, industry endorses. is about farming and small business. As we’ve heard, a lot of farm children - and I We did not come up with these age was one of them - operate farm machinery at guidelines. What we did is we took the very early ages. I started driving a tractor Consumer Products Safety Guidelines and when I was about six or seven. I can’t said: This is what we’re going to follow, and remember exactly how old. I was on the since 1988 we have followed these age tractor and the bailer was beside me and my guidelines. It’s on every machine that is dad was on the wagon putting hay on the manufactured. It is on every machine that is wagon. So from that standpoint, whether distributed in Canada. So we would that’s the right thing to do - I don’t believe it recommend that the Province of Prince is the right thing to do. Tractors are getting Edward Island seriously consider and adopt bigger. Farm machinery is getting more these age recommendations for children. The expensive, and we need to set proper information is readily available from the guidelines. But to suggest that this is not Consumer Product Safety Commission. going to happen at any point is not to be They have more experience than anyone realistic. To suggest that we give them else. guidelines to help parents is very realistic. Ask the farm community what do they need, The second item that I’d like to address is because it will differ from place to place. safe and environmentally sound places to What we’re saying is that there’s no one ride. From the standpoint of why a lot of solution that fits every place. issues come up, we have found over and over again, if you provide or ensure that In the Atlantic provinces there are three there are riding places, you can address such other provinces and they all have different things as trespassing, such things as legislation. Obviously, you have to build environmental damage, such things as the legislation that’s right for PEI. Obviously lady who was speaking earlier about being there are things to learn from the Consumer on the trail. If there are places to ride, people Product Safety Commission. There are will choose to ride there, by and large, and things to learn from your own community. those who do not you can deal with. But There are things to learn from the three

26 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 young girls that were here this morning or ATV, maximum speed on it of 15 kilometres this afternoon. And there are things to learn an hour that can be wound down to two from the medical community. Because we kilometres an hour. This is what you’re all want to do what is right. We all want to talking about. We’re not talking about adult ensure people are safe, that our children are size. Children should not be on adults. safe. But don’t just assume because we ban it that they’re going to be safe. Don’t just If you look at the information that I’ve assume because you say: No, no, no, anyone provided you today from the Consumer under 16 cannot ride an ATV, an off-road Product Safety Commission, over 90% of motorcycle or snowmobile, that means the injuries to children are because they’re safety. It’s shown in Quebec that doesn’t. It on adult sized ATVs. You take that away, doesn’t mean safety. What means safety is you prohibit that, you educate parents, you educate, inform, help parents and children inform parents, you educate children, you make the best decisions. inform parents, you’ll get rid of almost every problem you have with child safety. We’re I would heartily recommend, the industry never going to solve every injury. There was heartily recommends, education and rider a report out today that said there was training. As we heard from the gentleman something like 24,000 adverse effects in before, there is an excellent rider training hospitals by people who are there to help us program in place through the Canada Safety - 24,000. Doctors want to do the best job Council. We actually provide funding to the they can. Nurses want to do the best job they Canada Safety Council to promote rider can. Still there were 24,000 adverse effects training across the country. There is an on hospitals according to the Canadian excellent program for off-road motorcycles. Institute for Health Information. Again, we provide assistance to help people learn to ride. We’ve prepared and developed Ladies and gentlemen, that’s where we need all sorts of materials that are available at to find a solution. We need to find a solution dealerships. The gentleman before by working together. We want to work with mentioned about the CD, How to Ride Like you. We want to work with the government, a Pro. But there are many other materials, with the opposition, and we think we can all available free of charge. work with the medical community, the riders. You know, the best help in ensuring So what I’m saying is, as an industry, we that people understand what to do are the want to work with you. We want to develop organized riders, the snowmobile the best regulations possible but we do federations, the ATV clubs, the off-road believe very strongly - because I’ve seen it motorcycle groups. Let’s involve them in the myself, my own family - that children, given solutions. the proper guidance, given the proper training, given the proper education, can ride Thank you. a snowmobile, can ride an ATV, can ride an off-road motorcycle, provided it is designed Chair: Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. and developed for youth of that age. They have speed limiters, they have tethers, all of Any questions from the Committee? Mr. these materials exist on product already. Findlay. MacKinley. Sorry.

I would invite anyone from this Committee Mr. MacKinley: I seem to like your idea of who wants to go see what a youth off-road training. I don’t pay that much attention to motorcycle looks like, a little 50 cc that will ATVs, but when I look at my own farm, stand approximately 16 inches high. or an there are probably two or three of those

27 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 young fellows and girls, one lady and two ATVs - and for snowmobiles as far as I boys are from farms, but we seem to have no know - but for ATVs in this case, then that, problem in our particular area because they as I mentioned earlier, would go a long way even got the trails and keep to the side of the to stopping a lot of things that can happen, field. Most farmers know that as far as going where they’re riding off-road, across to the side of the fields it’s not going to hurt. people’s property. One of the problems I see in that is - and it’s Because a lot of - not a lot - a few people do like that poor girl that hits the post in not know where they should ride. I find, somebody’s field. That can happen and growing up on a farm, that most farm kids that’s a dangerous thing. But there’s no - I know they shouldn’t be riding across the don’t think there’s any and I can corrected - farmer’s field. But if you don’t grow up on a I don’ t think there are any ATV trails that farm, and more and more of us are living in are put there by government. Like, we get small towns or cities and might not the taxes on these things. We tax them on appreciate what affect it could have. So, yes, the fuel. We probably get the license fee if absolutely. you license people or, you know, training, but I don’t think there are any - are there any Chair: Mr. Brown. ATV trails? Because there is a lot of - like, in New Brunswick and that they have ATV Mr. P. Brown: Just on that. I know that trails. But in PEI, whether we like it or not, anyone who is associated with an ATV club there’s an awful pile of people using ATVs is aware that government is working with for recreation. associations to try and identify places to ride. Because I think if I could boil down the The Ski-Doos I think have come a long crux of your presentation, it was places to ways, the clubs, because they use, I know ride and it was safety of operators. Your they use our field, a few miles of it, and they position is that there are machines that are groom it and they police themselves. We suitable for different sizes or age groups of don’t mind as long they’re not all over the operators. Maybe some other presenters farm. You know what I mean. They seem to would challenge that, but that certainly be doing a good job there. I think there’s appeared to be. ATV operators or ATV clubs that have been formed but we’ve got to have a trail for I know in talking with people associated them. I just don’t know. You know, we were with the clubs and organizations outside of talking about bringing in regulations, but if the province, they suggested that there’s a young people were on a trail properly lot of research gone into, through CSA and supervised - and you can supervise a trail. I other groups - you referred to the consumers don’t think you can supervise the whole association in the United States - of what is acreage of PEI where these are all over the appropriate. Our problem, and it’s certainly place myself. But anyway, would that be a the parental problem, I’m sure you’re good idea, to have a trail for them? familiar with this, is that that in itself creates another whole policing issue in terms of: I’m Robert Ramsay: Yes, we want to work 13 and I can use a 90 cc bike but there’s a with yourself and the government, of course, 125 sitting right there. Now how do, does and everyone to develop a provincial trail anyone tell the difference. Certainly the system. It is a lot easier to enforce. It’s a lot uninformed can’t tell the difference. easier to regulate. We understand that in other provinces, and most other provinces do Robert Ramsay: We have addressed this have some sort of approved trail system for issue in other provinces and maybe I can

28 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 step back just slightly. It’s difficult. I don’t more appropriate for ATV use versus a want to undersell this. It is difficult. How multi-purpose trail? we’ve addressed it in other provinces is that working with the provincial federation in the Robert Ramsay: There ’s no simple answer clubs and using those riders, the people with to that in the fact that some places they the most influence, the people that have the should be multiple use, other places they peer pressure to enforce what’s going on, on should be single use or dual use. How that’s trails - in New Brunswick, very close to determined is depending on the community here, there’s a vast network of ATV trails, itself. There are communities who wish and there’s a vast network of snowmobile trails, want multiple use trails and want that and the federations and the clubs themselves opportunity. There are communities who do are actively involved in maintaining those not wish that. What our recommendation is, and enforcing the rules on those. They do a is working with local counties or local towns fabulous job and I highly encourage that in and that, is to determine what do they want every province I go to. and work with them.

Quebec’s had a wonderful model for over What we have found in the past - and there’s ten years with trails and trail systems. New a Trans-Canada Trail and I appreciate you Brunswick’s developing one. Just recently in bringing this up. Within the cities, within the Nova Scotia they passed legislation to fund towns, they want that for pedestrians provincial trail systems for ATVs and usually. They want it for bikers and that sort snowmobiles. So that is coming together. of thing, but mainly not motorized. But there are huge areas in many provinces where I think, obviously, PEI could be a leader in there are not towns and people do not, other this area working with the clubs and than a few people who might go for a ten- federations. There are a lot of people out mile hike, the vast majority of our citizens there, a lot of ATV riders, a lot of will go out for a walk of two or three miles snowmobile riders, a lot of off-road at the most. motorcycle riders, who want to work with you to solve these issues, and trails is one So between communities where there are way of doing it. stretches of land, a lot of times what they are finding out is the only way to maintain them Mr. P. Brown: Just to take advantage of is by allowing access to snowmobiles and your expertise, Mr. Ramsay, the issue comes ATVs - snowmobile during the winter, up often of multipurpose trails. Is it your ATVs during the summer - and then having belief that ATV trails are specific for the use diversion so that they connect up. So in of ATVs? In other jurisdictions, I know in some places they are multiple use. In other Nova Scotia for example, there are sections places they’re single use. But we really need of the Trans-Canada Trail that some sections the input of the community to determine allow ATV use, some sections allow horses, what is best for each community. some sections allow snowmobiles. Other sections doesn’t. Then within municipalities, Chair: Mr. Currie. municipalities govern inside their boundaries. They have bylaws that Mr. Currie: The question was just asked, influences who and what type of use you can thank you very much. have. Would it be your position or the position of your association - maybe you Chair: Any other questions for Mr. don’t have one - but trails that are Ramsay? designated for the use of ATVs would be

29 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Thank you very much. vary from nuisance incidents to much more serious situations. But I think it’s time to Robert Ramsay: Thank you. look for solutions or at least approaches that’ll significantly decrease the incidence of Chair: We appreciate your presentation. what’s already happening. We believe that all the questions - safety, irresponsible use, I now call on Dr. Ian MacQuarrie, annoyance, injury, environmental damage - representing the Public Forest Council. Is are all interlinked. With the greatest respect, Dr. MacQuarrie here? Yes, he is. There he is Mr. Chairman, I suggest that your question coming out of the back of the room. Is there regarding mandatory age limits for ATV a handout? users deals only with a small part of the problem Okay, Dr. MacQuarrie, Ian, any time you’re ready. What should be regarded as proper use of ATVs? I believe that these machines have a Dr. Ian MacQuarrie: Thank you, Mr. legitimate recreational and, for that matter, Chairman. Hon. members, ladies and working use in many off-road situations. I gentlemen. also believe that since government has been involved with and provided support to To begin I should explain what the Public almost every type of outdoor recreation that Forest Council is and why we’re interested exists, I see no reason why it should not be in this question of all-terrain vehicle safety. involved here as well. In an ideal situation, Our council is composed of private citizens government would be involved in plus civil servants and support staff from the facilitating trails, as it has on the Department of Environment, Energy and Confederation Trail for other recreational Forestry. We’re mandated to provide advice users. to the minister on issues directly related to public forest lands and forest products. Active government involvement in this We’ve also been called on several times to fashion should make it easier to establish the address a broader range of issues. For norms related to machine size, rider age, instance, to engage the public in discussions supervision, safety equipment and so on. It on forest policy in general. must be in the interests of the riders to cooperate with, rather than resist, a degree of We’ve had many public and private safety that could be summarized as: Who meetings and in these meetings we’ve rides what size machine, where and when? received a fair number of comments on ATV use related to safety or the lack of it, to The problem of regulation. On the Island, as property damage, environmental damage, elsewhere, there’s a tendency to try and nuisance, and in effect what roles the shape behaviour through simple negative vehicles are now playing and should play in regulation or prohibition. This method is the PEI landscape. cheap and fast and requires no great effort except, of course, on the enforcement It probably would not surprise you to hear agencies. As you are aware, we have tried to that most comments received were quite prohibit everything from automobiles - I put negative. A quick search on the worldwide a historical note in here. web or questions to our neighbouring provinces would provide much more such For example, the great-grandfather of the negativity. I will not stress this point except clerk of this Committee was one of the to say that the problems are widespread and people who went out on the roads with

30 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 lanterns and pitchforks to stop automobiles. few outlaws who infest every activity in this I’m not sure if she holds that view or not. imperfect world. Here I think very Margarine, alcohol, pulp cutting without a significant penalties, such as vehicle permit, canned pop, rock concerts: we have seizures, would be quite appropriate. a long history of this sort of prohibition which has had very mixed success. So we We recommend some sort of structure - a can prohibit ATVs from the Confed Trail or coordinating council, task force, I don’t sensitive environmental areas such as sand know what to call it - but a group which can dunes or from private property, lacking come together with government permission of the owner. We have this representation, industry representation, ability already. owner representation, land owner representation, to essentially develop I suggest to you that the present regulations protocols for trail, park siting and use, and on ATVs are not being enforced and are safety and education training, penalties and probably not enforceable without a huge and other matters. I don’t think this is necessarily expensive effort. Adding to the regulation going to be a very simple matter because list, for instance in banning particular age some of the positions are somewhat groups from using the machines, will not entrenched already. However, if something solve the problem. like this isn’t done by people of good faith, then I think conditions will assuredly What resources do we have? We have lands, worsen. both public and private, where off-road vehicles can be used with minimal In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I can only say disturbance and damage. We have active that unless we have some kind of structure ATV clubs with - and I’m sure I’ve heard operating which has the support of the ATV this this afternoon - industry support. We owners, then it really won’t matter what have trained transportation safety people. regulations you pass because they will not be We have experts who can advise on where enforced. trails would be appropriate, where not, and where they should be avoided absolutely. Thank you.

On the other hand, we have an increasing Chair: Mr. Dunn. number of vehicles and an increasing number of annoyed, even irate individuals Mr. Dunn: A quick comment, then a who have been affronted or perhaps even question. I guess quick comment is I like endangered by these vehicles. I spoke to one your approach that solutions are what we’re person recently who said she was afraid to looking for here - use a beach at night because of ATV traffic. It takes only a handful of such incidents, Dr. Ian MacQuarrie: That’s right. coupled with a few accidents, to lead to a thoroughly disturbed public hungry for a Mr. Dunn: - not blame or penalties. My quick fix. question is: Being as you’re representing the Forest Council, can it play a role? I’ve Elsewhere these situations have led to driven four-wheelers. I enjoyed them. I don’t violence, to the use of spike belts, even think they’re designed to drive on roads or firearms. Is this our future? I certainly hope flat surfaces. They’re designed to go through not. I firmly believe that with cooperation woods and uphill and downhill. The forest we can lessen these problems. Then, in good land we have on PEI, is there any concern on conscience, we can throw the book at the behalf of the Forest Council regarding ATV

31 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 trails through the forest? would suggest that most of the injury and the violation that takes place and the nuisances Dr. Ian MacQuarrie: I guess the fast that take place today are already in answer is yes because there are forest areas contravention of existing legislation. where we would very strongly recommend against the use of ATVs. There are other Dr. Ian MacQuarrie: Exactly. areas - for example, I can think of some plantation areas in the western part of the Mr. P. Brown: So the bans in place, if you province, where, quite frankly, I don’t think will, whether it be trespassing, whether it be you could hurt them with a bulldozer. So underage drivers, whether it be people not why not put a trail in? The Council would be following helmets, I mean the tragic - and I very interested in working with any group want to emphasize tragic - example in Nova who wants to set up a provincial trail or a Scotia was three experienced people with county trail or whatever so that we can help ATVs all on one machine driving on a guide them to areas where we think there terrain where they were not allowed to be. will not be too much damage. Then that creates public outrage and concern for something. But even as the father of one Mr. Dunn: Thank you. of the victims said: These people knew better. So we have to be careful that we Chair: Mr. Brown, Philip. create a positive solution to this rather than, as you point out, some sort of easy type of - Mr. P. Brown: Certainly Dr. MacQuarrie, I appreciate you coming in. I think you Dr. Ian MacQuarrie: Exactly. quickly brought us to the point that my colleague and I, Mr. Dunn, were talking Mr. P. Brown: We might feel good with a about. It is that inevitability when we regulation, but if it doesn’t accomplish what entered into this discussion it was going to we all want collectively - whether it be the broaden much wider than the resolution and medical community, whether it be us as the regulation before us. legislators or users or nonusers that are being nuisanced - we don ’t really Dr. Ian MacQuarrie: Very much. accomplish very much.

Mr. P. Brown: Because, as you point out, Dr. Ian MacQuarrie: I am optimistic prohibitions rarely work and so we have to enough to believe that if we can get people find a constructive solution to a challenge, I together we can thrash out many of the think is a better way of putting it, than a problems. We will not solve all them. On the problem. With a significant amount of other hand, I live beside the Confederation machines on the Island they’re not going to Trail where we have ATV use rather disappear tomorrow with some sort of ban. regularly: bicycles, pedestrians in summer, Certainly we want to ensure people’s safety, snowmobiles when there’s snow, which is whether it be other people utilizing, in the pretty rare too. If you were to ask me simply case of the Confederation Trail, which I my personal opinion on what should be have a very vested interest in. We don’t banned there, I would go for the pedestrians want to endanger the present users there. So any day. Because those are the ones that are how do we deal with that and the riders? causing me trouble. ATVs are not. But that’s simply a personal view. So I think your participation is very important. I just would almost say there may Chair: Okay, thank you Dr. MacQuarrie. be - because you talked about the ban - I

32 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

I appreciate your input. The next - sorry, Mr. resent that. They seem to feel that since I Currie had a question. live there it is my duty to provide them with bathroom facilities. I must say we have Mr. Currie: I certainly liked the become rather short-tempered with some of presentation you gave and I believe that these people. probably the use on the trail is by far more pedestrian, I guess. I do understand that Chair: Dr. MacQuarrie, thank you very some is used around the more populated much. areas. So your recommendation is that you’re suggesting a marriage of ATVs and Dr. Ian MacQuarrie: Thank you. pedestrians and snowmobiles on the existing trail. Chair: The next presenter will be Scott Livingston. The next presenter has Dr. Ian MacQuarrie: A multi-use trail? I withdrawn and will be rescheduled. think will depend very much on where you are. Obviously, where there’s heavy Scott Livingston: Mr. Chairman, hon. pedestrian traffic, I don’t think it would members, public. work at all. But, you know, let’s face facts. You have a multi-use trail out there now, I’m not a very good speaker, but anyway I whether you like it or not. felt that this was very strong to my heart. I thought we should bring up some things I’ve Mr. Currie: Yes. seen about this regulation that has bothered me. I’ll start off with the way the regulation Dr. Ian MacQuarrie: I do not see the is written right now. ATVs on the trail - they may do some structural damage. That doesn’t interest me What I see here is a lot of problems with - very much. It may interest you. But I don’t for one thing you’re outlawing the underage see this as being a real danger. In general I kids from driving and stuff, and I feel that think, however, that we need to be working that’s wrong. But more than that, I think that on a single use, dedicated trail system, with - you’re going to affect tourism, which is a big I don’t know what you’d call it - some sort part of PEI, and also I feel that you may not of park system where people can engage in realize it, but you’re also taking in go-karts. motocross, all of the good things you can do So anybody that has a go-kart track now has with engines. But I would think, looking at to get everybody that goes on that go-kart the Confed Trial in terms of multi-use, you track now trained in a safety course. I’m sure would have to look at it section by section that that’s going to affect people a little bit. and, of course, very much with communities Golf carts are another thing that are being involved. considered an off-road use item. So now when you go golfing you’re going to have to Chair: Mr. MacKinley. have your safety course to go golfing. I think that’s another thing that may or may not be Mr. MacKinley: How do the pedestrian intended by this regulation, but it looks like cause you problems? that’s the way it’s going to affect things if you take it to the letter the way you have it Dr. Ian MacQuarrie: They leave the trail written now. and camp on my property. They leave the trail and do other things on my property. I just wanted to bring to the council that, you They leave the trail, come wandering into know, there will be events like rodeos and my farm yard, and take pictures of me, and I go-kart meets or competition events for

33 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 motorcycle owners or ATVs and these way we’re proposing? events should be exempt from this type of thing. So if you have a tourist coming in Scott Livingston: It’s an off-road vehicle. from other provinces or something like that, they don’t have to have our courses to Mr. Dunn: I think we had this discussion participate. before. I was saying the same as you. I thought lawn tractors were going to be out. I’m not very good at talking like this, I’m sorry. Scott Livingston: Exactly. Exact same thing. I feel strongly, like - I know as kids ourselves, like I said to you earlier today, Leader of the Opposition: There’s a certain Mr. MacAleer, that we were driving provision in there, though. motorcycles back in the 1960s in our backyards. Your brother - I’m sure your sons Mr. Dunn: What’s the word? have been around driving motorcycles when they were younger. I know that this has been Leader of the Opposition: I forget what it kind of concentrating on ATV safety and is. stuff, but you’re painting everybody with the same brush and you really should look at Mr. Dunn: Husbandry? how it’s written. We talked about a 90 cc, there has been talk here of 90 cc Leader of the Opposition: Something like displacement for under 14 years of age. I that. also recommend that maybe you should have a seven horsepower to cover such things as Mr. P. Brown: No, you’re right. Because as go-karts and stuff like that that may fall explained by Mr. MacEwen when he under this regulation as well that are higher presented with TPW, Highway Safety, it was displacement, but because they are a that if it’s a husbandry vehicle, which is a stationary engine have less horsepower. lawn tractor, because you’re - but go-karts is a good - I just feel that the sport of off-roading, either by motorcycles, go-karts, ATVs, Scott Livingston: I’m thinking also golf snowmobiles, is a sport that is vital to every carts, you know. You’re promoting young young person. Usually if they’re involved golfers and stuff on the Island and stuff, and with off-road events like that, they’re not here you are restricting the use of golf carts wandering the streets getting into trouble in for anybody under the age of 16, I guess. other ways. I think that it has helped a lot of young people lead better lives because of it. Leader of the Opposition: Currently I With the proper regulations - I do feel that don’t think you can drive a golf cart or rent we do need regulations, but properly done - I it under the age of 14, just for - think it’ll be better for everybody. Scott Livingston: I don’t know. I’m just That’s pretty well it. saying that this is something, the way I’ve looked at this, and these are my thoughts on Chair: Any questions from the Committee. it, anyways. You know, originally when we Yes. Mr. McCardle. did the motorcycle-vehicle safety inspection legislation back in 1979-80, I was lucky Mr. McCardle: Is this man correct? Will enough to be invited in on those talks. I feel go-karts be illegal if we change the laws the the same thing should be here, that there

34 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 should be somebody from the industry or Scott Livingston: As a dirt bike enthusiast individuals to advise you guys to take a look or an off-road enthusiast for 40 years, I at it in layman’s terms and see what you’re guess, you know - saying in this regulation, the way you have it written right now. Because I think it has Mr. Currie: Still have a heart (Indistinct). far-reaching implications the way you have it done. Scott Livingston: That’s right. But, you know, I’ve had brothers - I taught my Chair: Okay, Mr. Currie, you have a brother how to ride a bike when he was three question. and a half. A lot of times we self-regulate it. I know that years ago we used to have a Mr. Currie: Scott, thank you for your motocross park out in Brookvale beside the presentation. What we have is a draft ski park. I know at one time a couple of the regulation. We’re here to gauge opinion and guys decided to go over and drive in the ski certainly to listen to everybody that brings park. Well, they were basically banned from forth a presentation. What I’d like to, I the motocross track for them. Self-inflicted guess, understand, being an avid user bans by their peers so that this would not yourself, is there a willingness on the part of happen again. Because they didn’t want to the motorized people to cooperate with the disrupt and hurt the area other than where foot traffic? If, as suggested by the previous they were designated to ride, so that there presenter, that if level heads sit down at a would be no complaints or whatever from table and decide that there’s some way that neighbours and other things like that. there’s cooperation between those spaces that are not being utilized, and that there is So when you say: Would the motorized already a move afoot by TPW and Forestry people be willing to help?, I said: I think that to use some of the back dirt roads to we already are doing that. I think you’d find connect, use some of the forest trails, they’re that most people are very responsible that already, I think, mapping that part out. ride off-road, probably more responsible than the kids that are riding bicycles or the We don’t have that luxury in every area of people that are riding bicycles around half the province, but we do have ample roads the time, you know. that are not plowed all year. They’re called seasonal roads and we don’t use them. If Mr. Currie: I think if we come out of these there were areas like that and we could meetings with anything more than there’s a connect in some areas, and there is some willingness, a cooperation, between all of sharing, would there be a willingness on the interested parties on all of the public and motorized users that are using it now to, say: maybe some private land - I mean we don’t Agree to that? But also - I think what I’m want to sit here and stick our finger in your hearing and seeing from the health eye any more than you want us to. So we professionals on PEI - is that there’s a lot of have to have some cooperation from people driving vehicles that do not have the everybody, a willingness to come to the proper training or safety training. Would that table and say: Let’s have a marriage and sit also be something that we could come to down and do that. Because we would rather agree on? have that - I can’t speak for everybody here - but I think that’s what we’d like to see. Scott Livingston: It’s like anything else. There’s always a bad apple in every group. Scott Livingston: I think the fact that we have open dialogue is fact enough that we Mr. Currie: I totally agree. are dealing with this in an open and

35 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 forthright way. So, you know, the safety Chair: Okay, Mr. Brown. training course is a good point to have. But personally, I haven’t seen any advertising in Mr. P. Brown: You made a very good point the newspaper in the last two years. I can’t when you sat down, Scott, is that you felt for say that there is the availability of that. So if a long time you had something to contribute, you’re mandating a safety training course, and you certainly did in your presentation you’ve got to first make sure that that’s today. available. Because the real onus here has got to come Mr. Currie: Should it be compulsory? from the users of the machines. I have a particular gentleman in my district, very Scott Livingston: Should it be compulsory? familiar to the Leader of the Opposition, It should be strongly recommended. who wants government to create solutions. Compulsory? If it’s available. But then are I’ve said to him - if I’ve said it once I’ve you guys going to supply? Are you going to said it a hundred times - that this is a new make sure that it’s available? issue, and as my colleague, Mr. Currie said, we’re not going to poke our finger in any Mr. Currie: Well, that’s a good point, yes. eyes.

Scott Livingston: Because it’s great to say: The ones most affected are the ones with the Yes, everybody’s got to have a course, and machines, and we have to find a way - and then you try to go get the course and as you said, the dialogue here is a nobody’s teaching the course. It’s a problem. willingness. Because it would be It’s like when motorcycle, the license came irresponsible of us as legislators to turn a in. They talked about having a motorcycle blind eye to this because it’s not going to go compulsory course before you could get away. So we all have to work constructively your motorcycle license. I think they together. But the ones with the most dropped that because the course was not invested are the ones with 7, 8, $10,000 in a always available for people. They strongly machine with no place to ride it, and who recommended it. If you take the course, you are allowing people who are giving their get your motorcycle license, but you don’t legitimate use a black eye by terrorizing have to take the course. If they want to go members of the public. As the lady said who down and prove competency to Motor utilizes the Confederation Trail and is Vehicle they can do that, can they not? concerned that she may have to go out at 5:00 in the morning, like, that’s not good for Mr. Currie: Responsible parents will do it. ATV users that those people are representing Those three young girls want to take it you - anyway. Scott Livingston: No. Chair: Okay, Mr. Brown, Philip, and - Mr. P. Brown: - to the public. That’s very Scott Livingston: I’d say those three are bad. So there has to be a way. The going to be teaching it soon. Snowmobile Association became the strongest wardens because they had a vested Chair: - and then Mr. Dunn. interest to ensure that everybody had a trail pass. There was no way the RCMP or the Mrs. MacIsaac: The girl with the blue Province of Prince Edward Island was going hoodie has taken two motocross courses that to ensure that everyone had a trial pass. But were offered by a pro-driver. when they realized: We can’t get insurance

36 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 on this, we’re putting our legitimate use of them most, are most affected by it. the trail in jeopardy if we don’t get this together, then they really started to enforce - Like myself, I have no kids now that are of the age that this really applies to. But some Unidentified Person from floor: Same day I hope to have grandchildren, and I hope rules could apply to ATV users on the trail. that they can enjoy what we enjoyed when we were kids. You know, I can remember Mr. P. Brown: What’s that? the joy that I had at five or six years of age driving a little motorcycle or a go-kart, Unidentified Person from floor: Same because we were lucky enough we had all rules could apply to ATV users on the trail. these toys when we were kids. (Indistinct) wardens and make it as functional as the snowmobiles. Unidentified Member: (Indistinct).

Scott Livingston: But you know, you can’t Scott Livingston: Sometimes we did, protect people from themselves. If sometimes we didn’t. But, you know, to somebody’s going to hurt themselves or do restrict that joy - and not only that, to restrict something stupid, as much legislation as you the competency that you gain from learning want to put down, you cannot protect them. to ride at this age, you know. These people, when they get to be 16, 17 years old, are Mr. R. Brown: That’s right. going to be excellent riders. They will drive better, be safer, and know more about their Scott Livingston: Okay? There has to be a vehicles than kids that are starting out at 16, line drawn here somewhere. A little bit of you know. They’ve learned it from the common sense has to come in. To be honest ground up. There’s a lot of good benefits to with you, I’ve seen people do stupid stuff. having strong off-road recreational driving. I’ve seen people put children on machines way too big for themselves. Of course, I’ve Chair: Okay, Scott. seen parents of 16 year kids give them a high powered car, too, when they get their Scott Livingston: Thank you. license. So, you know, there are times that people do stupid stuff, you know, and you Chair: Okay, thank you very much. cannot prevent everybody from doing damage or doing stupid things themselves. Now, as Chairman, I’ll take some liberties Because there are a few people, no matter here. We have another person that’s going to what you do, and it doesn’t matter what you be representing the Medical Association of write in this legislation, they’re still going to PEI, Dr. Katherine Bigsby. We are a little do it. ahead of schedule. I’ll ask the Committee what they would like to do. We can either You’re going to get people that will still put break and wait for Dr. Bigsby, or we can ask a five year old kid on an 800 pound ATV or the audience whether anyone wants to snowmobile and say: Go play with it. Where approach the microphone and allow them to it’s not designed for that. Those people you say a few words. cannot, no matter what you do for legislation, it doesn’t matter to them because An Hon. Member: That’s a good idea. they’ll still do it no matter what you do. But the people that are trying to abide by the Chair: Is there anyone out there that would laws and be good neighbours to one another like to approach the microphone and have are the ones that, when you restrict things to their comments recorded? It’s important that

37 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 you do that, and if you feel somewhat They’re always under supervision. uncomfortable, I assure you that that’s not what we are trying to do. So gentlemen, do We do motocross or we do tracks, mainly, you want to - we want everyone’s comments so we’re not out tearing up grounds, and it’s to be a part of the public record. That’s why things like Motocross Association, they it’s important that you speak into the work with everybody to make it as safe as microphone. So you just take your time and possible. They come to us and ask us if identify yourself, and possibly, you know, if there’s any concerns we have for the kids. I you represent somebody, we’d like to know, mean, they separate the kids. I believe the but we’d like to know your name, that’s for ATV Association, Motocross Association, if sure. there was some kind of trail set up, they’d definitely work. Taking it away is not the Clifford MacIsaac: My name is Clifford answer, but making it better would definitely MacIsaac and this is my daughter Kelsey. I work. don’t think we represent the Motocross Association but we’re a part of it. My Chair: Any questions from the Committee daughter, like my wife had said, she had members? taken two training courses on motocross and this summer she spent more time on the bike Mr. R. Brown: One quick one. than off the bike. We raced all through the Maritimes. My son’s the same deal. Now, Chair: Yes. Katherine Bigsby coming, she’s my son’s paediatrician and he has a major heart Mr. R. Brown: So you don’t mind the rule defect. So he can’t keep up in hockey. He of a certain age (Indistinct)? can’t keep up in baseball. We put him on that bike. He can keep up. She agreed to let Clifford MacIsaac: No, no. I mean, that him race. He has a very serious - I mean, he should be up to the parents too, mind you, built confidence over the last summer. It was because I’m not going to go and stick her on just - people noticed the difference in him. a 250 where she can’t touch the ground at His self-confidence goes down in the all. I mean she drove a bike this summer, it wintertime because he can’t keep up in was 100 cc She wasn’t allowed to race it, by hockey and all his friends in school are in any means. We were just out in the field and hockey. she got to drive it around a little bit, went over a couple of little jumps and stuff like So this little lady, she raced, the same thing, that. She was tippy-toed on one foot but it’s all last summer. Besides bruises and bumps, not a bike that she’d be allowed to race, that’s all she came out of. Now this year because it takes a lot more to race. playing hockey she broke a toe. Go figure. I mean, you can do that walking out the door. Our motto is we learn to go slow first, then I mean, to take that away from the kids - and we go fast. So we learn to do the stuff and it’s like Mr. Livingston said there, when it’s all done safely, as safely as possible. these kids hit the road at 16 compared to Mind you, it is a dangerous sport, and so is somebody who hasn’t driven, there’s no everything else pretty well. substitute for driving experience, whether it’s off-road, on-road. It’s something they Chair: Okay, Mr. Brown, Philip. love to do. They’ve been on a bike since they’ve been six. I believe there should be Mr. P. Brown: All of the activity takes either supervision - the kids never get to go place in a confined area. The practice takes trailing off on their own by themselves. place, even if it’s in the back yard, it’s in a

38 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 practice facility. The competitions take place for races. I mean, tourism’s down. That’s in a confined area also. The problems we - another avenue to look at for getting tourism and I know you’d be familiar with this, you on the Island. I know there’s lots that go couldn’t be involved in the sport - is when it from here to New Brunswick because of the takes place in the general public. You’re trails. So, you know, it has its benefits. It’s driving down a street and an ATV passes got to be governed between pedestrians and you in a small community. This is where we motor vehicles. come in as legislators. I mean, this is unacceptable public behaviour. So Chair: Any further questions? Mr. Currie. ultimately, legislators have to deal with this. Do you have any guidance you can give us Mr. Currie: Clifford, I’m sure you take the as we go forward on these things? time to spend with your children to teach them the proper safety procedures. Is there Clifford MacIsaac: It’s been mentioned any parents out there that you feel that are already, trails. I mean, like you say not exercising the same practice as yourself? pedestrians, but at this end, pedestrians close to Charlottetown. The snowmobiles don’t Clifford MacIsaac: No, not in the use the trails in Charlottetown. So I mean, Motocross Association, not at all. We’re in that’s kind of common sense, you know. that age group. We know all the parents. We Once they get out farther then - even like raced in the Atlantics, and if I saw a kid fall pedestrians should be limited to the in front of me and there were bikes coming, snowmobile trails. Like that lady says she I don’t care if it’s my kid or not, you’re not walks the snowmobile trails in the going to sit there and watch him get run wintertime. If you’ve got a snowmobile over. So, you know, parents are a big deal of coming down there and he’s not expecting a it. That’s one of the reasons why. I’m not person on the trail, that’s where problems saying there’s - she’s had a couple of bad happen. I mean, the Snowmobile accidents herself. She’s got up and walked Association has the right to those trails so away. We were lucky. I mean, she has all the that person probably shouldn’t be on those gear that you could have on, believe me you, trails. So it’s looking at where your but I mean, I’ve seen in some incidents pedestrian traffic is. where parents have snapped kids just out from underneath. I mean, you’re a parent, Like the ATVs, I couldn’t see a problem in you’re a parent. It doesn’t matter if it’s your the rural area if the same deal as the kid or not. You’re not going to watch - in snowmobiles. I mean, I know the ATVs our Motocross Association, anyway, I can damage the terrain for the snowmobilers. say no, the parents in that association are all But if you had all that much more money good. coming in from an ATV trail pass, then maintaining the trails would be a lot easier Mr. Dunn: You’re pretty well regulated. when you have double the money coming in to maintain them. Clifford MacIsaac: Yes. Yes.

I’m sure the Snowmobile Association has Mr. Currie: I think we’d feel a little more problems with maintaining the trails, too, comfortable ourselves if all of them because they don’t have enough money. But practised the same as you guys do, because if you combine the two, you’re going to have we see a lot with ball caps on backwards double the money. The use of the ATVs, that driving them, and they’re younger. If there brings in a lot of money. Like the motocross, was some way to make it that everybody has there’s off-Island people come to the Island the training the same as your daughter has

39 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 achieved - Mr. Dunn: That’s right. Find a place for you. Clifford MacIsaac: Yes. I believe in training. That’s why my daughter had got it. Clifford MacIsaac: With that it opens up a I mean, I can teach them so much but then whole new avenue for everybody. I mean it’s like one of the riders, he’s a pro rider, he like you said, or I said, the associations will. taught her things that, you know, I didn’t I mean, it’s common sense when you meet even know. I learned from it. We were there somebody walking on the trail, slow down. through the whole thing. The parents are Not everybody has the same common sense, usually there. The parents are learning while but with the associations that comes a long the kids are learning, you know. Training, way. Like you said, the Snowmobile there’s no substitute. That’s why I say with Association, they’ve come so far. That’s the driving experience, there’s no substitute because they were given the opportunity. for it. The ATVs haven’t had that opportunity to, or motocross yet, to prove that it can be the Mr. Currie: You’ve got to meet same way. somewhere. There has to be a courtesy. You don’t go 60 miles an hour. You slow down Mr. Dunn: Mr. Chair, can I ask Robert and everybody enjoys the public access. Ramsay a question?

Clifford MacIsaac: It’s like the gentleman Chair: Go ahead. from Ontario said too. With the clubs, it’d help cut down on it because peers in the club Mr. Dunn: I asked the question earlier and I would frown upon watching somebody got nods from the back of the room. I’ll ask make destruction on private property. They you as a representative of the manufacturers. know it’s going to ruin it for them. So Are they manufacturing three-wheelers they’re going to be the first ones to say, you again? know: Smarten up. I know we are, and I’ve been around to different things and it’s the Robert Ramsay: No, no. There are no more same deal. It’s the clubs and that. You got a three-wheelers. big organization so the spotlight’s on them. So they’re going to look out for the few bad Mr. Dunn: I’m surprised. I talked with the weeds that do make the trouble. guy in front of the rec centre.

Mr. Currie: Thank you very much. Robert Ramsay: You can still ride them. You can still drive them. There hasn’t been Mr. Dunn: You’re more of a sport than a any manufactured or brought into Canada recreational - since 1988.

Clifford MacIsaac: Yes. We do Mr. Dunn: Thank you very much for that. recreational too, riding, but it’s because we don’t have anywhere to ride. We’d like to Chair: Thank you, Clifford. ride recreational but there’s nowhere and our bikes could do damage to environment fairly Clifford MacIsaac: All right. Thank you. easy. So it’s just we don’t have a place to ride, so yeah, we are limited to a certain Chair: Is there anyone else that wanted to thing. But I mean, I’m looking for a trail approach the microphone and have their bike myself but it’s kind of useless to buy comments or observations recorded? I’d be right now. glad to - we certainly don’t want to deny

40 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 anybody the opportunity. There’s a Arthur Birt: Oh, yes, there are. Some kids gentleman. Could you identify yourself to grow faster than others. But then again, are start with? the skill levels there? And cc’s doesn’t go all the way either. If you compare a 200 cc Arthur Birt: My name’s Arthur Birt. I’m two-stoke to a 200 cc four-stroke, they’re from Pleasant Grove. I have a family of five. just night and day. That doesn’t really cover I have three kids. We all have four-wheelers. it either as far as that goes. We drive them whatever chance we get. I can’t see why there couldn’t be, like you Mr. P. Brown: I’m sure we won’t record said, a marriage between four-wheelers and that, but there are better brands than others. snowmobilers, and people for that matter. The clubs I think would go a long way in Arthur Birt: I have pretty much everything policing it. There are some bad apples like at my house. you mentioned but, you know. Mr. P. Brown: Okay. That’s good What else did I want to mention? Kids (Indistinct). getting hurt. Most of that is caused, as far as I can see, by parents letting kids that are too Chair: Mr. McCardle has a question. small ride machines that are too big. Machines are just like bicycles. They have to Mr. McCardle: Your family has five be changed as the child grows. They’re four-wheelers? expensive machines. There’s just not enough money spent as the child grows to change Arthur Birt: Yes, we have about $25,000 the machine with their capabilities. tied up in them.

Mr. Dunn: One size fits all. Mr. McCardle: So have your children taken this safety course? Arthur Birt: That’s what a lot of people think but that’s not the way it is. Like at my Arthur Birt: No. I didn’t - I wasn’t aware house, we have everything from an 80 right that there was a course. up a 700 and everybody has their own machine and that’s what they ride until they Mr. McCardle: Because it’s not available grow. I recently changed two machines - a or - 50 and a 125 - to bigger machines because the kids just grew out of them. That’s just Arthur Birt: I’m all for it, but we haven’t the way it is. If you want to ride them, you had it. They never go anywhere without a have to pay the price. parent with them, either myself or my wife. Supervision is the only way, as far as I can Chair: Mr. Brown, Philip. see. Even if they are trained, you wouldn’t let them go. What’s a 12 year old going to Mr. P. Brown: So you’re very attentive to do? If he gets around the corner, he’s going the skill level of the rider having the ability, to be, God knows, doing what. and probably the height and weight and all of those things. Therein is the challenge of Mr. McCardle: He’s going to pin her, is laws. If you put below 60 and 90 cc’s, I’m what he’s going to do. sure that you would contest that, that there are people that are 14 years old who are well Arthur Birt: Yes, and as far as your capable of driving 150 cc machines. common courtesy goes, it’s the same thing. A lot of the problem that you’re having with

41 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 this common courtesy thing are younger were 14 fatalities in Quebec and seven in riders that just don’t give a darn. If their Ontario. So from that standpoint - and they fathers or mother were two steps behind have similar size populations as far as usage them, they’re going to behave. As far as I and children under 14 and so on and so can see, fines for parents that aren’t forth. supervising their children? Sure. I don’t see anything wrong with that. It’s going to keep So the reason from what we can tell why the them from getting hurt. I don’t want my kid Ontario system works better is that there is to go out and get hurt. I want them to have the education. There is a program in Ontario fun and be able to enjoy it as much as called SAVE, which stands for snowmobile anybody else, but I want them to be in bed ATV vehicle education and enforcement, safe at night too. and it’s operated by the Ontario provincial police. They go around and do presentations Leader of the Opposition: Not in a hospital at schools and work with the clubs and bed. federations, both the snowmobile and ATV federations, across the province. Arthur Birt: That’s right. But training, there’s nothing wrong with it. So that tends to work better from what we can tell than just an outright prohibition, Mr. Currie: Irresponsible parents. because in theory, no one should be getting injured or hurt if there’s an outright Arthur Birt: That’s right. prohibition. But in practical terms they do, because it can’t stop every situation. Chair: Okay, well, appreciate your input. Is there anyone else that wishes to approach Mr. McCardle: In Ontario, is there a the microphone? prescribed safety course for everyone?

Mr. McCardle: Could I ask a question? Robert Ramsay: The course actually that the gentleman spoke about earlier, the Chair: Well, just a minute. I want Mr. Canada Safety Council Course, is a national Ramsay at the microphone. Otherwise it’s program, so it exists right across the country difficult to hear you. I mean, for the and there are certified chief instructors and recording system to hear you. certified instructors across the country. So it’s the same course as that gentleman was Mr. McCardle, go ahead. referring to.

Mr. McCardle: What regulations were you Mr. McCardle: Is it more readily available suggesting we prescribe, the Quebec or the in Ontario? Ontario? Robert Ramsay: I don’t know that as a fact. Robert Ramsay: I was suggesting that the I don’t know how available it is Ontario regulations are a better approach. comparatively speaking. I don’t know that. Not necessarily those precise regulations, The Canada Safety Council could tell you but the approach of education and safety that. Mr. George Smith is a national awareness is better than just an outright coordinator. So he would know how many prohibition. The accident statistics and instructors and where they are in PEI as well fatalities also support that. So if you as in every province. compare the two during the time period 2002-2004 inclusive, those three years, there Mr. McCardle: Okay. Thank you.

42 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Robert Ramsay: You’re welcome. do you learn riding but you learn the machines you’re riding, right? Chair: Any further questions for Mr. Ramsay? Chad Howatt: Yes. I think there was another gentleman. Could Mr. P. Brown: Because so much - the we just give some space for this gentleman suspension is important. That’s the part of here? Give us your name. safety that a lot of people don’t understand is to know well the machine. I know in farm Chad Howatt: Chad Howatt from Borden. safety, one of the things you have to teach is My son rides an 85. He’s 10 years old. I just about what a tractor does, and what it should feel that banning it outright wouldn’t really do and what it shouldn’t do. That’s one of do him justice, because he’s been riding the basis of the safety training. So then you since he was six and he rides with the develop a respect for your surroundings, but Motocross Association. He’s been involved also for the machine that you’re on top of. in that for the last three years, and it’s more of a sport to him than anything. I think that Chad Howatt: This is his third bike now. maybe more training should go into it. He He started at a 50 and went a little bigger takes training courses now, but maybe a and now he’s riding an 85. So he knows his provincially run training cross. I know over bike. across in Nova Scotia before you get your motorcycle license, you need a training Chair: Any further questions? Fred. course. My sister lives in Florida, and before she was allowed to even sit on a motorcycle Mr. McCardle: You’re involved in this she had to get a training course down there racing circuit. as well. So maybe more training for the kids. Chad Howatt: Yes, I’m on the board of Mr. McCardle: Could I ask a question? directors.

Chad Howatt: Yes. Mr. McCardle: Now, how many people are involved in that? Mr. McCardle: How available are the training courses on PEI? Has your child had Chad Howatt: Member-wise? this course? Mr. McCardle: Yeah. Chad Howatt: Tanner had - not this course they’re talking about, but Tanner had Chad Howatt: Well, at a usual race there motocross training courses which is more in can be 70 to 80 people riding. They start at tune to riding on the track. six and they go all the way up. There’s some 40 or 50 year olds. Mr. McCardle: It’s not a safety course as such. Mr. McCardle: But they’re always on a given track. Chad Howatt: Not a safety course, no. I’ve never heard of one on PEI. Chad Howatt: Yes.

Mr. P. Brown: One of the things that the Mr. McCardle: You don’t train in the people involved in motor sports, involved woods or on the trail or - like yourself and your son, is that not only

43 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Chad Howatt: No. We have to buy a track Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Great. membership. It’s $200. Up west there’s a track in Duvar and the other track is My name is Kathy Bigsby. I’m a pediatrician Mudrooters Track in Bonshaw. at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital here in Charlottetown and I’m the immediate past Mr. McCardle: There are a lot of private president of the Medical Society of PEI. I tracks as well. currently sit on the board of directors for the Medical Society of PEI and for the Canadian Chad Howatt: Yes. That just people own? Medical Association. I’m also a former member of both the divisional and national Mr. McCardle: Yes. organization’s committees on healthcare and promotion, and a member of the Canadian Chad Howatt: We have a track beside our Pediatric Society and the American house that he rides on. Academy of Pediatrics.

Mr. McCardle: We’re not going to run into I have been asked to speak on behalf of the your child on the trail or anywhere else. Medical Society of Prince Edward Island whose mandate, in part, is to promote high Chad Howatt: No. He’s definitely not standards of health and healthcare for all allowed on the trail. We had a problem, Islanders. I’m also here with a professional actually, about that. He’s got a Honda and interest in injury prevention, particularly in there’s a lot of them and there are other kids children and youth. with the same bike on the trail. That’s the problem. All these bikes look the same, so I come today to offer the medical your son can get in trouble without being a community’s support and recognition of the troublemaker. He wasn’t on the trail but important role government plays in another kid was on the trail with the same protecting the health and well-being of bike. I think maybe education of the kids Islanders, and in particular, the protection of that are in the association and stuff is children through legislation. important. Recreation involving children operating and Mr. McCardle: Okay. Thanks. riding on machines that are designed for adults, but labelled with warnings - improper Chair: Thank you for your input. use of ATVs can result in severe injury or death; not recommended for use by those Dr. Bigsby, are you ready to - take your under 16 - protects the manufacturer from time, and we appreciate your coming when liability but does nothing to protect children you did. We’re just a little bit ahead from serious injury or even death. schedule but for now you’re right on time. Unfortunately, education is not enough. So just take your time and get organized and Government needs to intervene with we’ll await your start. legislation. Legislation in the past has been effective in many areas dealing with issues Dr. Katherine Bigsby: I think I’m okay to of public safety. go ahead and get started. Thanks very much, and I apologize for holding you folks up. Many of us here today will remember a time before seatbelt legislation. There were many Chair: No, not at all. We’ve had a very of us who rode around in the backseats of good session here with the audience cars, looking over, watching the odometer participating. roll over. Nothing bad happened to us. But

44 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 we know that good things have come from its mandate to include, as well, the operation seatbelt legislation. These days, when a of snowmobiles and dirt bikes. There’s collision occurs causing injury or death, strong evidence that children are at a very we’re pretty quick to ask: Were they wearing high risk for injury and death during the their seatbelts? There is an almost operation of these motorized vehicles as unanimous acceptance today that seatbelts well. save lives and if that if we choose not to buckle up, we’re gambling with our lives Having expressed my faith in the role you and with the lives of our children. play as legislators, my role then is to provide the argument for amending the current More recently, we’ve seen action taken in legislation further to include all those under response to legislating bicycle helmet use for the age of 16 versus the proposed minimum all ages. Some opposed a bicycle helmet law age of 14. I hope to offer my expertise in the when it was first debated in front of a area of childhood development so that the committee similar to this. I, myself, recall physical limitations of children are clearly ridiculing a colleague 20 years ago when he understood and, therefore, reflected in the was wearing a helmet. I now know different. new legislation. Even though this law is relatively new, it has caused a shift in thinking and a noticeable As a pediatrician, I treat patients up to the response. Now, more than ever, children and age of 16 and sometimes older. However, parents are wearing helmets. The law caused for purposes of the discussion, when I refer people to rethink their decisions and moved to children, I am speaking about anyone them to action. under the age of 16. I believe, as do other physicians, that a law I’d like to first begin by sharing a banning children from operating and riding professional experience with injury directly potentially lethal motorized machines would related to children and ATVs. send a very strong message to parents and caregivers. I also firmly believe that most One of the first encounters I remember with parents who currently allow children to ride a child injured in an ATV collision, took ATVs, believing that the risk is minimal, place during my residency in pediatrics. The will rethink their decision when a law is child’s injuries were extensive: the introduced banning this activity. hallmarks of motorized vehicle collisions with fractures of major bones, abdominal You will also hear arguments from people, trauma and a devastating head injury. The including parents, who oppose this parents were in shock. But what I remember amendment, despite very strong evidence was that the surgeon was not in shock. He that children risk lifelong injury and death. was angry and he was frustrated. I remember Sadly, for a percentage of children, life is him saying to this family, instead of without safeguards. But I believe responsible consoling them, he was so outraged. He parents will choose to obey the law, said: Don’t you listen? Don’t you read? realizing that the potential for injury or death Don’t you know these things are not for far outweighs all arguments to the contrary. children? No, they didn’t. There was no law to tell them that it wasn’t okay for their child This Standing Committee will be hearing to ride. views on the proposed amendments to the Off-Highway Vehicle Act regulations Having shared this experience, one might specific to the operation of ATVs. I would argue that this is anecdotal and it’s not urge this Committee to consider broadening evidence-based. I can assure you that the

45 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 evidence does exist. Complete reports have ATV-related injuries are overall more been supplied, and I will be referencing data severe. from a soon-to-be published paper entitled ATVs: Motorized Toys or Vehicles for Some believe the answer is simply to make Children? the machines smaller. The fact is the risk of injury to a driver less than 16 years old, I will be referring to the evidence gleaned operating a smaller vehicle - for example, a from this well-researched paper and other youth model ATV which at a minimum related articles. Sources referenced include weighs 250 pounds - is five times higher the Nova Scotia Trauma Registry, the than the risk to an older driver on the same National Ambulatory Care Reporting size machine. The fact is there is no System, Decision Support Services, IWK evidence to support the premise that Healthcentre, Statistics Canada, Canadian operating smaller vehicles results in a Institutes of Health Information, US Product significant enough risk reduction to Safety Commission, Canadian ATV recommend this practice. Age alone plays a Distributors Council, Transport Canada, the large role in the risk of injury. Canadian Pediatric Society, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American So the questions to be answered are: one, Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons, Safekids why is the risk so much greater in children Worldwide, Child Safety Link and many under the age of 16?; and two, is there others. anything that can be done to significantly reduce the risk and avoid the need for So what are some of the facts? legislation? You may or may not be surprised to know The simple answers are: children do not that the number one killer of children is possess the skills and judgement needed to motor vehicle collisions. The greatest safely operate ATVs, and since nothing can number of fatal injuries in children in our be done to change this fact, children must province and across Canada happens while not be allowed to operate ATVs. riding in a motor vehicle. So why all the fuss about ATVs? I appreciate that this position is unacceptable if unsubstantiated. The medical facts and The fact is the actual risk of a child rationale behind why children are sustaining an injury on an ATV is six times developmentally and physically ill-equipped higher than the risk of being injured while to operate ATVs and snowmobiles has been riding in a car for the same period of time. studied and, as noted, circulated for the The fact is over a four-year period, 1996 to Committee’s verification. 2000, hospitalizations from ATV-related injuries increased 50%; 36% of these were I’m quoting from a position statement to children between the ages of 5 and 19. published June 2004 from the Canadian Pediatric Society regarding preventing The fact is in 2002 ATVs tied with fires as injuries from all-terrain vehicles. In the third most common cause of researching ATV crashes, the study notes injury-related deaths among children aged 5 that: inexperience, inadequate physical size to 9, and in children aged 10 to 14, ATVs and strength, and immature motor and tied with bicycling as the second most cognitive development contribute to the common cause of unintentional increased injury seen in children. injury-related deaths. But remember, many more children cycle than ride ATVs, and This Committee, parents and caregivers

46 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 need to accept that the best-trained, smartest and indeed necessary for any age to safely chid, is only as safe as his or her physical operate ATVs, snowmobiles and the like, and cognitive skills allow when it comes to but the degree of protection training operating motorized vehicles. Take, for provides children is limited by their brain example, the need to develop skills such as function. Physical maturity is the safety judging the speed of an oncoming vehicle or measure only time can provide. the amount of time it will take to get from point A to point B. Children are not all built Even parents who have heard the evidence like Anakin Skywalker, although they think will, without legislation, permit their child to they are. operate or ride ATVs and snowmobiles believing their child is somehow different, How often has this happened to you while above average if you will: my child is you were driving a motor vehicle? You’re at smarter; my child is physically mature for a stop sign awaiting an opportunity to make their age; my child is skilled and a right-hand turn. You watch the flow of experienced; my child has all the gear; my traffic. It’s heavy. Finally, there’s an child has been riding since he was four. opening. You judge that it is safe and proceed to complete the turn only to realize Even should all these attributes be combined the vehicle approaching is moving far more into an ATV-riding wonder-child, even then, quickly than you anticipated. If you’re a child under the age of 16 remains at risk fortunate, you accelerate, and achieve the with potentially devastating consequences. speed needed to avoid becoming rear-ended. Likely, a quick prayer that the approaching Children have a right to be protected. car has brakes and knows enough to use All-terrain vehicles and snowmobiles are them and cares to use them. especially dangerous when used by children and young adolescents for all the Of course, there are many similar scenarios physiological reasons provided, and for where we, as experienced drivers, are caught which no amount of training, protective gear off guard and must react quickly and with or supervision can make safe. The learned skill. We execute driving decisions magnitude of the risk is reflected in industry after years of experience, and still we are literature, vehicle manuals and labels on occasionally surprised by our own poor current models, but not yet within PEI’s judgement or that of others on the road. In legislation. either case, our judgement as licensed adult drivers is not impaired by immature brain I urge you to consider the evidence and development or cognitive skills. make the only ethical recommendation possible to protect Island children and assist However, from a pure developmental parents and caregivers to act responsibly in perspective, children are disadvantaged in the guardianship of Island children. the safe operation of fast moving ATVs and snowmobiles, endangered because they I ask you to recommend that no child under simply do not possess the appropriate brain the age of 16 be allowed lawful operation of responses and cognition skills required. an ATV or snowmobile. Although children vary somewhat in the development of these areas, most of them Thank you for your attention. are not able to attain the necessary ability until around 16 years of age. Chair: Thank you. Now, Committee members? Mr. MacKinley. Yes, safety and skills training are important

47 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Mr. MacKinley: I have one question there. Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Yes, I’m following You’re saying that a child is not developed you. enough in their brain up to the age of 16 to properly function on one of these machines. Mr. MacKinley: Yeah, so you step on it. Is that what you’re saying? But basically, before you pulled out, you should have known how far that car was Dr. Katherine Bigsby: As you know, it’s back and it wouldn’t have caught - not black and white, is it? There isn’t anything magical that happens on Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Yeah, and I think - somebody’s 16th birthday. It’s a very gradual thing. But in general, adolescents, or young Mr. MacKinley: - rather than pulling out adolescents, don’t have the cognitive skills and stepping on it. or the judgement in order to be able to safely operate a vehicle. But again, it’s not black Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Yeah, I think the and white. There isn’t anything magical that point is that what judgement tells you is how happens on that birthday, but you do have to to judge where a safe spot is going to be. But set a line and 16 is reasonable. even with experience and the maturity of an adult, you’ll still make errors in judgement. Mr. MacKinley: But at 16 they go out and You multiply that manyfold with young drive a car. Like, at 16, they get their license drivers. to drive a car. Mr. MacKinley: Yeah, well, I’m trying to Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Correct. get the point because we’ve had some young people here before us, and there was one Mr. MacKinley: In heavy traffic, yeah. young girl there that gave a presentation - she’s still here - I’m not quite sure of her Dr. Katherine Bigsby: So if you say - age, I forget, it might have been 12? Eleven. But she seemed to have experience driving Mr. MacKinley: So like where, if you’re 15 them, say. So she’s got an ATV, and I’m just years old, you can’t, 14 let’s say, if we trying to figure this out. Let’s say you got an brought in rules at 14. So there are two years ATV, a dirt bike, all right, and I would there between 14 and 16. So your mind assume a dirt bike would be more dangerous develops quick enough that you can drive a than an ATV because there’s only two car? wheels on it. But anyway. So you drive a dirt bike. But she seemed quite mature. It seems Dr. Katherine Bigsby: So is the point that she was trained. So if we took - for you’re making that we allow someone to do instance, do you drive a dirt bike? driver training and then pick up their license at 16, but they shouldn’t be allowed to - Dr. Katherine Bigsby: I’m sorry, are you asking me if I drive a dirt bike? Mr. MacKinley: No, the point I’m wondering is if they’re properly trained at a Mr. MacKinley: Yeah. younger age - like, we all know training. You read there, you write in your article Dr. Katherine Bigsby: No, I don’t. about if somebody pulls out and they didn’t judge the car coming to you, it was closer to Mr. MacKinley: No. Do you drive an you than you figured, so you step on it. In ATV? your brief here, right? Dr. Katherine Bigsby: No, I do not.

48 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Mr. MacKinley: All right. So let’s say you there are two issues. One is personal safety go in a shop, you could buy a dirt bike. You to that person, and the other is safety to the could buy an ATV. You could just go down public, which is why we have fairly stringent the road and drive it. Yet, who would be the regulations around on-road vehicles. When most experienced? The person who was it comes to children, there is an issue of properly trained under 16 or the person that safety to themselves personally. I guess what went in and picked up the dirt bike and we know is that children and youth don’t started driving it, or an ATV? have the same ability to make judgements when it comes to quick moving vehicles. Dr. Katherine Bigsby: I think you’re making a very strong case for nobody Can I give you an example? There was an operating those types of vehicles without amazing toy on the market that’s since been appropriate training. taken off the market because it killed so many children, and it was called a baby Mr. MacKinley: Well yeah, I go along with walker. I’m sure my mother had one in the the training. But what I have a hard problem house for us. It was a great little toy. is getting is people with proper training can Children loved them. This isn’t about what do things probably better. Like a prime kids like to do. Kids loved baby walkers. example in my own business. I got a young You’d put these eight- and nine-month olds fellow that grew up on the farm and he went in a baby walker, and suddenly this thing to school, he worked on a farm, and he that should be rolling around on the floor or drove ten-wheelers in the fields. He wasn’t crawling was standing up, and could reach driving them on the road, but he drove them the cord of the kettle, and could reach all in the fields picking up hay and that. So then kinds of things that children weren’t meant he gets his license. I remember he comes to reach, and could also tumble ass over into the warehouse to me one day and he teakettle down the basement stairs and showed me his license. smash their heads. Then, all of sudden, he goes for his Class III Enough children died from that that they license. That’s to drive a heavy truck, one of were finally taken off the market but I met those trucks with 10 wheels, ten-wheelers. many parents along the way who said: He goes in there. He can’t get his license till Please don’t make me get rid of my baby he’s got two years experience before they’ll walker. My child loves it. It’s the only thing give him a license. But yet somebody can that will keep her from crying. She has a come out of this school that’s training here great time in it. My child is safe. I watch my on the Island and they walk in and they show child. I close the basement door. I heard all you all these papers. But we have a law at of those arguments, and to some extent I our place, at our business, that if they’re bought them. But eventually enough going to drive, we go with them for the first children died that the manufacturers day or two, just somebody from the business recognized their liability was high, took that knows how to drive. There are all kinds them off the market. The recommendations of people coming in there I’m trying to say were very strong that they shouldn’t be used. who are older that can’t drive, I don’t think it’s safe to drive those trucks. So again, the point that I’m trying to make -

Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Yeah. I guess the Mr. MacKinley: If you’re going back to - point that I was trying to make is that when how old are the babies when they’re in the you’re making decisions about when to walker? allow someone to drive a motorized vehicle

49 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Nine or 10 months Thank you for your presentation, doctor. It’s old. always a challenge in our job in these Committees is you tend to hear from both Mr. MacKinley: Yeah, nine or 10 months sides of the issue, and some middle area. old, so I could agree that yes, I have a Because you’re seeing certainly the ill grandchild right now, she’s probably eight effects all too often of young riders in months old. I know my mother’s birthday motorized vehicles. I mean, that’s where and there’s a table down fairly low and it’s medical professionals see this all too often. I pointed and the baby’s sitting up and it’s guess it kind of - there’s two parts to my crawling and everything. My eyes were kind question, I think, that kind of goes with the of looking. Isn’t somebody watching that previous question. child by that table? But I mean, all of a sudden, you move to 12 of 13 - One thing I would suggest is that most injuries that take place now, there are Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Well, let me take a already laws against those people step back then. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear. participating in the activity where the injury took place. I.e., they’re either operating a I guess where I was going with that was it vehicle in a place where it’s illegal, they are looked like a toy that the child was very operating a vehicle in a way that is already happy with and it looked like a toy that that illegal, that they haven’t the proper safety child should be able to handle. But even equipment that is recommended, or though the child was having a great time in something like that. the toy, the child was developmentally not ready to handle that toy. The other part of it is that where an activity is confined, some of the people that If you take that up to the sort of adolescent presented talked about dirt bikes. Now the or pre-adolescent age group, you’ve got kids participants understand that, by the nature of who look sturdy, well grown. They do get it, it is a risky activity. When my kids play out and about. They love these things. They hockey and once they go to peewee there show that they have some ability. But what starts to be checking and the risk elevates a you need to recognize is that they do not bit there. Another boy that snowboards and have the same judgement and they do not going down the hill quite fast, there’s risk have the same physical skills as older there too. We allow them to participate in drivers. those activities, but I wouldn’t allow them to go on the outback of the Rocky Mountains But you’re absolutely correct. This is not a without a guide with them. black and white thing, and I guess whenever you create legislation you run the peril of Like, for example, dirt bikes. I didn’t even having people say: Why did you put the line think of dirt bikes when we started down right at that? What’s the difference between this road, but now I realize that any someone who’s 15 years and 363 days and legislation we would put in place would somebody who’s 16 years old? There isn’t impact dirt bike users. Where the activity is very much of a difference at all. But you do, confined, you take out the unknown you are forced to put the line somewhere. elements of risk - like the basement stairs, and like the toaster with the cord hanging Chair: Mr. Brown, Philip. over the side of the cupboard - you take those elements of risk out, can individuals Mr. P. Brown: Thanks very much, Mr. under the age of 16 operate dirt bikes or Chairman. ATVs within a reasonable measure of

50 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 safety? And do you feel that there is be a bit hard pressed to argue very strongly legislation in place now - these are the two against that because I haven’t looked at that parts to the question - that if properly abided part of it. I just know that the situations that by, we would eliminate a lot of the cases that I’ve been in where children have been you may see as a doctor of unnecessary seriously injured, as nearly as I can tell, injury? parents thought they were following all the rules. In the end, when they reflected on why Dr. Katherine Bigsby: I guess what’s the accident happened, they said: You know unique about what we’re talking about - and what? He misjudged it, she misjudged it. you’re right. There are lots of risky things that folks do in the name of recreation. Mr. P. Brown: Because when I do go to the What’s different about what we’re talking ski hill I see little kids going with their about is the motorized part of it. Yeah, you parents down hills that I would never go can pack a great deal of momentum going down and they go chu-chu right to the downhill on your snow board, but it’s not bottom and sometimes they even - the parent going to flip over and land on top of you and has a tether or something. But obviously, the it’s not going to keep going when you’ve ability of the skier is what gets them to the stopped or are incapacitated in some way. bottom of the hill, not their age or not their equipment or anything else. It’s their ability Mr. P. Brown: But a tree doesn’t get out of to be able to navigate the hill with the skill the way. level they have. Because I can’t follow them, and it’s a little bit embarrassing, a six year Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Absolutely not, old going down the big hill and I’m going yeah. I guess we can’t live in a risk-free down the bunny hill. world, can we? But what you can do, what you try to do is weed out the extreme risks, But that’s the reality and I guess that’s what and so the question becomes: Is this I’m asking, as a pediatrician. Is there a identifiably an extreme risk? In the name of developmental level that we, as legislators, recreation, does it make sense to expose a can make good judgement in terms of the child to this degree of risk? So what you’re younger than 16, as Mr. MacKinley said, asking is: Where does the real risk lie and is that can - we can’t take out the risk, we all there a way to mitigate the risk, as you say, agree with that - but we can mitigate it as by putting in all kinds of safeguards in terms best as possible? of the environment that might make it reasonable for a driver to operate a vehicle Dr. Katherine Bigsby: I think what makes under those very strict control the situation unique really is the motorized circumstances? vehicle aspect of it. I don’t know the answer to that. I know that I really appreciate your analogy with respect most kids and most kids in this age group to the skiing because we’ve seen some nasty that we’re talking about, if there’s a way to stuff happen on ski hills, and you try to kill yourself, they will find it. I don’t mean make that safe. But there is this big, heavy to be flippant about that. It’s just that this is motorized vehicle. That’s really what it’s all a really risk-taking age group, and again, about. Even when you scale them down, judgement deeply impaired. I have two they go. They go faster than you want them living at my house. Very deeply impaired to go and they can kind of keep going even judgement for most things. when you don’t want them to keep going. So I don’t think it’s a totally fair analogy. So I don’t know that it’s possible. I would

51 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Getting back to your question - about.

Mr. P. Brown: But we could extend it then You, as legislators, are being asked to kind - of put a line on it. We’re suggesting 16 because we know so many in that 14 to 16 Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Yeah. age group really are not only intense risk takers, but they’re risk takers who really Mr. P. Brown: - we could extend it to - and have very poor judgement when it comes to I’m not trying to be debative - but we could the kinds of things that are required in extend it, then, to horseback riding. Because making decisions around driving a what I found is I can have a mind but the motorized vehicle. horse or the vehicle is what we’re saying, there’s more in control here than just the But there are lots of 16-year olds that I’m rider. That creates a difficultly where - not happy to see on the roads, and there are some 30-year olds that I’m not happy to see Dr. Katherine Bigsby: It does, and I on the roads, but you’re never going to find appreciate again that there isn’t - it’s not something that’s perfect. risk-free but you’re - the horse is unlikely to race you into a barbed wire fence and have it Chair: Mr. Currie. slit your throat, and I’ve seen that on a snowmobile. Mr. Currie: I appreciate your comments this afternoon, doctor. I think what I got Mr. P. Brown: It could trample you if you from yours was your reference of a surgeon fell off it without knowing. who was extremely frustrated with parents, and also I think your own comments about Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Exactly, it’s not parents that beg you to allow or think we risk-free - still should be allowed to use baby walkers. Parents that want to continue or allow Mr. P. Brown: Right. children to ride a vehicle without proper training or just get on it and take it, what’s Dr. Katherine Bigsby: - and when it’s got a your recommendation we do with them? mind of its own, it’s a bit of a problem. Dr. Katherine Bigsby: You know, I But I don’t think that that excuses us from imagine lots of us in this room have looking at a risky situation where you clearly children, and there’s nothing like making have some control and saying: There’s lots your kid happy. We love it when our kids of risk in the world so you have to just are happy with us and they’re enjoying ignore that. themselves, and we like to do things that keep them happy. But getting back to the question that you asked before about where do you draw that I guess what I say is, as individuals, we have line, any of you who have experience with a very, what I call, tolerance for risk. I do adolescents know that they’re a real mixed this every day when I talk to people about bag. When I’m having a bad day, I say: You medications or surgical procedures. know, you could be teaching junior high. Everybody’s different. We all have a They’re all over the place, aren’t they? There different tolerance for risk and there are are some really quite physically and some folks who have a very high tolerance emotionally, mentally, mature 14 year olds for risk. They see the world as a very risky and some 16 year olds you really wonder place and they’re willing to take those risks.

52 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

The problem is that when you’re making a understand the question. Are you asking risk decision, not on your own behalf but on about enforcement or - the behalf of somebody else, you take on a lot more responsibility. The argument that Mr. Currie: Yes. Because what I got from we’re making is that we do children a your presentation was the surgeon who was service when we make their parents make a extremely frustrated and went out and good decision on their behalf. Not everyone scolded parents. I got from that that it went will be happy with the decision that you through them. They were shocked. But they make. I know I heard lots of grumbling even never listened to him. when seatbelts came in. You know, my goodness: She screeches, she doesn’t want Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Yes and actually, to go in her car seat. The kids, you know, they were shocked because they really didn’t they’re going to cry. You have to have - you realize the risk that they were exposing their can’t fit so many kids in the back seat any child to. That was where the shock came more. from.

We accept that now. Most of the time it’s Mr. Currie: So was that lack of education the kids telling us that they need to be and training on safety? buckled in because they recognize that it’s important for safety. Dr. Katherine Bigsby: I would argue that they thought it was okay to put their child on Mr. Currie: You should be in politics, you an ATV. What can I use as an analogy? I’m didn’t answer the question. sorry, I’m at a bit of a loss. They thought it was safe. I mean, it’s like you buy a product Dr. Katherine Bigsby: I don’t have to and it electrocutes you and you sue the answer the question. manufacturer. Well yes, you have some responsibility for that yourself, but you Mr. Currie: The question is if we’re to put bought it in good faith. They didn’t in place laws or legislation, we want to appreciate that it was going to be a danger to know from everybody: What do you do with you. those people that do not want to take the responsibility you mentioned of looking Mr. Currie: I did that with the baby walker after the children and saying you should not because the child, my son, ran into an oven go on that? Because what we had before you and hit the oven door and burned his were presenters saying: She watched the forehead and his chin. So it went out the child go in and get hurt on an ATV, and over door, bent and broken, and went into the the course of her life, because she’s garbage at the same time. That was before paralysed, it’s probably going to cost $4 they ever banned it. But that’s what they million. So what do we do with those could do and that’s what stuck in my mind individuals that do not want to take the when you mentioned that. responsibility to properly train and provide guidance over a child? It took a lot longer, but I’ve also watched - I guess, a lot of people got special Dr. Katherine Bigsby: You know, I’m not circumstances when the seatbelt came in to sure - I wasn’t really trying to be evasive. be able - because of a health risk. But that’s since gone away. So there was some Mr. Currie: No, I know. flexibility on behalf of the health professions to accommodate certain people, I guess, that Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Maybe I don’t really growled a lot and got it. But now you just

53 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 don’t give it to them any more. the risks that they’re taking, and we really live in a society, I believe, that trusts Dr. Katherine Bigsby: That has to do with government to guide. Can I give you another education all around. We realize that those example? It’s totally unrelated. exemptions were not valid at all and we put people at more risk by giving them those Unidentified Person: (Indistinct). exemption certificates. Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Yeah. Mr. P. Brown: The difference in the Immunizations. There are some very analogy on the seatbelts that I find is that if effective recommended vaccines that have the objective in getting in the vehicle was to come onto the market, and as soon as they drive or to go someplace or to be a were available to our patients we started to passenger, the seatbelt did not take away offer them. The uptake was very poor. Cost from the objective. The person was still able was a factor, but you know what? People to drive. They didn’t like it but that was - the fritter away money on all kinds of things. So problem with what we’re being asked to do why were families not buying these very is to disallow someone from participating in effective vaccines for their children? an activity that they’re currently involved in, and that makes it different. What we’re It’s because we have a fabulous trying to say is we understand there are risks. immunization program in this province. I’m Can we put seatbelts on the people, take sure what people were thinking was: You away the risks, create the law around the know what? If it’s important, they’ll pay for risks, but still enable them to participate in it. So yes, I got your blah, blah, blah, blah, the activity? blah information, but if it’s important, government will buy it for my child. They That’s where I’m wrestling because, really do trust that if something’s important, certainly from the presentations so far, it’s they’ll hear about it in legislation or in some not clear. There are some people that say fashion like that. that we do everything to mitigate the risk, to allow the activity to take place in as safe a Chair: Okay, Mr. Finley, MacKinley. Sorry. manner as it can be, understanding there is a And then Mr. Dunn. risk. Some others are suggesting that the risks are just too high associated with Mr. MacKinley: You just mentioned there someone below 16 operating this vehicle, the government expects people to protect that the best way is just to ban it from people or whatever, or to police things. Is happening. that correct, you said that, or something like that? You said we live in a society that The problem I have as a legislator is that if government expects - people don’t follow the rules, we’re not going to solve the problem. We’re still going Dr. Katherine Bigsby: People expect to have people under the age of 16 using direction from their legislators, yeah. them, so are we accomplishing what it is that we all desire? Mr. MacKinley: That means to come out and make rules and regulations, but you Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Nobody likes to belong to the Medical Society. I think you’re create an unenforceable law. We know that self-policing yourself, don’t you? that just doesn’t work. The problem is that in the absence of legislation people just Dr. Katherine Bigsby: There is legislation. don’t get it. They really just don’t appreciate

54 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Mr. MacKinley: Yeah, but - and I’d like you to sort of separate them out, for a number of reasons. I just want to pick Dr. Katherine Bigsby: There’s a Medical on the motocross people for awhile. Because Act. they have defined themselves as an organization, they defined themselves Mr. MacKinley: Yeah, but I think the almost as a sport, they have found a place Medical Society does their own - for themselves to have their activity. They’re not a public nuisance to anybody or not Mr. Dunn: The College of Physicians. interacting with the general population. You don’t see dirt bikes going up and down the Dr. Katherine Bigsby: The College of streets of our community or our side roads. Physicians and Surgeons, yeah - They have a place to go.

Mr. MacKinley: Yeah. What we’re trying to deal with here is the ATV people who aren’t that well organized Dr. Katherine Bigsby: - administers the provincially, who do not have a place to Medical Act. drive, and because of those two issues, they’re not able to train, to educate or to Mr. MacKinley: Administers, it’s not really regulate their own industry. So I just want to administrated by government. It’s sort of separate that. administrated by doctors of their own profession. Because the motocross people have done a wonderful job of working with young people Dr. Katherine Bigsby: I think that’s and working with the older people in a safe dictated in the Medical Act that that’s how it environment and the training and the should be. education, the safety courses they put on, but the ATV people are not there yet. That’s part Mr. MacKinley: Yeah, what I’m saying. of - what I see is part of the issue is that they Yeah, that’s dictated because the Medical don’t have a place to legally operate so Society, that’s the way they want it. There they’re not organized. If they had some place was one time we were looking at changing that they could legally operate their vehicles, the Medical Society act that they worked then I think the organization would come in, under but the lobbying and that, we left it the the liability insurance would come in. way it was. There are some pros and cons to There’s a hundred of issues that would be that. I have no problem the way it is, but the addressed as far as education, training and general public has some pros and cons there such. too. Whatever you get into is going to be controversial. So I think there’s every - you can’t put them all in the same bag, I’m saying, and have the Dr. Katherine Bigsby: I agree that anything same response. that you do legislatively with respect to this is going to be - there will be opposition on Dr. Katherine Bigsby: I’m not sure that it one side or the other. is true that with an ATV you can mitigate the risk enough, but I would be hard pressed Chair: Okay, Mr. Dunn, Cletus, the last to argue that. I guess in my mind what I’m question, please. picturing is a place where people can ride an ATV, and it’s flat and you can’t get close to Mr. Dunn: I think you sort of bunched a the walls. whole bunch of people in the same bag here

55 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Mr. Dunn: An ATV (Indistinct). Okay, this Committee will adjourn until 7:00 tonight, at which time we’ll have three Dr. Katherine Bigsby: But that’s what I’m presentations this evening for those who thinking, what would you do? There are wish to be here or to participate. some inherent risks in the ATV that have to do with rollover risks. I guess what I’m Thanks for everyone’s participation this saying is, the point I was making, that at a afternoon. It’s been highly informative and certain age it kind of doesn’t matter how interesting. much training you’ve had, how much experience you’ve had. If you’re young, [The Committees recessed] you’re not going to be able to handle the equipment. You’re not going to be able to Chair: Welcome everyone to the evening make the judgements that are required in session of the Standing Committee on order to allow you to operate that safely. Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation. We’re here to consider Chair: Dr. Bigsby, thanks for your presentations with respect to Motion No. 9, presentation. I’m going to leave the last a proposed amendment to the off-highway word for you. I’m not going to put any more vehicle act. Our first presenter is Mrs. questions but if you want to close out with William Hambly representing the IWK anything you want to say to the Committee Hospital. other than what you’ve said, it’s your opportunity to do that. Is there a closing So Wilma, you’re on. comment that you’d want to make? Wilma Hambly: Thank you, Wes, and it’s Dr. Katherine Bigsby: Thank you for that. I Wilma. don’t know that I have anything more to add except that I really do believe that legislation Chair: What did I say? is very important in protecting children. As parents, we have hard times making Wilma Hambly: William. decisions, and sometimes what helps us make good decisions is if society has a set of Chair: Oh, I’m sorry. rules that we all agree to play by. That helps us make good decisions on the part of our Wilma Hambly: That’s okay. children. Chair: Familiarity (Indistinct). I can appreciate that those of you who know children who have a lot of experience with Wilma Hambly: I’ve been called worse. ATVs or whatever may think that that makes them safe. You can be fooled, and I’m Good evening. I want to thank you for the fooled over and over and over again by opportunity to present to you this evening on children that I think are quite capable and in this very important child and youth health fact, at the end of the day, developmentally, and safety issue. they are not at a place that provides them with skills in order to be able to do these I’m Wilma Hambly. I’m a member of the things safely. This is a huge problem. board of directors of the IWK representing Prince Edward Island, and I’m presenting Thanks very much. this evening on behalf of Anne McGuire who is the president and CEO of the IWK; Chair: Thank you. Wendi Bacon who’s the chair of the board

56 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 of directors of the IWK; as well as the motorized vehicles requiring adult skills and remainder of the board; and the senior judgment. They are not toys for children. management team of the IWK Health Centre. In support of our position, I will quote from the United Nations Convention on the The vision of the IWK Health Centre is to Rights of the Child, ratified by countries help children, youth and women of the around the world including Canada. The Maritimes to be the healthiest in the world. Convention on the Rights of the Child states We strive to achieve this vision in numerous in Article Three that: ways, including taking an active role in public discourse as leaders and advocates of “The best interests of the child shall be a health and safety matters affecting the primary consideration in all actions populations we serve. concerning children, whether undertaken by public or private social welfare institutions, First of all, we want to commend this courts of law, administrative authorities or Committee for taking this very necessary legislative bodies. In each and every step to bring this issue to the public and to circumstance, in each and every decision move forward with an amendment to the affecting the child, the various possible current legislation. This is a very positive solutions must be considered and due weight move in the right direction. However, our given to the child’s best interests. Such an position is that the amendment, while approach prevails in all cases - from direct laudable, still does not go far enough to interventions by States in their jurisdictions protect all children at risk of injury from to the private context of family life, where operating these motor vehicles. States may intervene indirectly - through local authorities - to ensure and protect The IWK Health Centre feels compelled to children’s rights... step forward and be heard on the issue of all-terrain vehicles, to support the position “Best interests of the child means that that has been made by our medical legislative bodies must consider whether community that all-terrain vehicles are laws being adopted or amended will benefit unsafe for children under the age of 16 to be children in the best possible way. Courts and operating, and to highlight some important others settling conflicts of interest should factors that we, as advocates for children’s base their decisions on what is best for the health, believe should be considered. child. When administrative authorities intervene - for example, when establishing First of all, I would like to speak on the traffic regulations or designating safe places matter of safe public policy. As the tertiary for children to walk and play - actions referral health centre for the entire Maritime should be on behalf of children and should region, we advocate for legislation and safeguard their best interests.” legislative change that takes into consideration the best interests of children, This convention demands the protection, by and reflects a commitment to protect those legislators, of children from harm in as many that are not able to protect themselves. ways possible. It is not enough to say: It is up to a child’s parents. Experience has Clearly, legislation that allows children and shown us - in the case of legislating the use youth to operate motorized vehicles for of baby’s car seats, seatbelt use, firearm which they are developmentally unready is regulations and the like - that we need safe not in the best interest of the child. public policy in line with the rights of child All-terrain vehicles must be treated as to ensure safety from harm for all of our

57 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 children. sees this action as an investment in the health of our children and the future of our The reality is, unlike many diseases, injuries community and we appreciate the can be prevented. All-terrain vehicle injuries opportunity to share our position with you. represent 12% of all major injuries to children. Among 10 to 14-year olds, Thank you. all-terrain vehicles are the second most common cause of unintentional injury. I Chair: Thank you, Wilma, for the could provide you with many more statistics, presentation. Committee members, any but I think the message is clear. ATVs have questions of the presenter? None. a significantly negative impact of the health and safety of children and youth. With safe Thank you very much. Appreciate your time. public policy, these injuries can be prevented and the heartache to families, as Wilma Hambly: Thank you. I do have a well as the preventable cost to the system, copy of this to give to you too. can be avoided. Chair: Yes. Injuries bring with them a huge cost. They cost the child and family precious years of Our next presenter is Ben Hoteling. Ben. good health together and they cost society and the healthcare system millions of Ben Hoteling: Good evening, and thanks dollars. The cost to the system of a major for the opportunity to present to the head injury to a child over a 50-year life Committee. span is in excess of $4 million in immediate care, continuing care and rehabilitation. Chair: Ben, could you just read your name into the - For every $4 million saved, hundreds of other children who suffer from illness and Ben Hoteling: My name is Ben Hoteling. I disease that is not preventable will have am a certified instructor, I’m certified by the resources available to them that would Canada Safety Council to instruct in the otherwise have been spent on preventable Canada Safety Council All-Terrain Vehicle injuries. For every injury prevented, another Safety course. family will be spared years of grief or painful rehabilitation. Chair: Thank you.

It is clear that we have a fiscal, moral and Ben Hoteling: I just wanted to bring some ethical obligation to ensure that the safety of of my observations from my many courses our children and youth is a priority when that I have taught. making public policy decisions. The Canada Safety Council Guidelines with In closing, I strongly encourage you to take regard to age and use of all-terrain vehicles the necessary policy action to ensure that are that a child under 12 years of age should children under the age of 16 are no longer never operate an ATV with an engine size of permitted to operate all-terrain vehicles in 70 cc’s or greater. A child under 16 years of the Province of Prince Edward Island. It is age should never operate an ATV with an their right to be protected in this way, and engine size greater than 90 cc’s, and it our responsibility to see that they are. should never be allowed that a child under 16 years of age to operate an ATV without Please know that the IWK Health Centre adult supervision. Children need to be

58 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 supervised because not all children have the be mandatory, and a separate class category strength, size, skills or judgement needed to should be established for validation on each operate an ATV safely. driving license. The licensing qualification should be successful completion of the Having conducted ATV safety courses over Canada Safety Council ATV Safety course. the last six years - I’ve conducted an average of about ten courses a year - I have observed All users of ATVs on PEI should be licensed many individuals of various sizes and skill and grandfathering should not be allowed. A levels operate these machines, and I’d like to system of gradually required licensing by stress these machines are rider active and age categories would help avoid a rush for require a large amount of rider input to the course. I stress that all users should be achieve safe operation. licensed because I’ve had comments from almost all experienced riders who have Because of the Occupational Health and taken the course that they learned a great Safety regulations, anybody operating an deal, even though they had experience ATV during the course of their job must handling ATVs, and this happened with me have a training course. So I’ve had the on many occasions. opportunity to train some fairly experienced people. The rider must use the body mass to So to sum up, in conclusion, age restrictions keep the ATV stable and level with all four by ATV engine size and licensing wheels on the ground at all times. These requirements would be my suggestions. machines are inherently unstable because of their flotation tires and the fact that they’re Any questions? mostly used on uneven terrain. Chair: Andy. Sorry, Mr. Mooney. In many instances, small riders just don’t have the body mass required to keep all four Mr. Mooney: How long is your course? wheels in contact with the ground at all times, especially during turns and when Ben Hoteling: The course is a one full day manoeuvring on hills. This can cause an course. The student is on the ATV almost unsafe condition where the ATV can upset, the whole day. It is a very strenuous course causing harm to the operator. and it really teaches them how to handle.

All-terrain vehicles and other off-road Mr. Mooney: What would the cost be vehicle riding can be an exciting and fun roughly, thereabouts? sport for riders of all ages and safe operation should be encouraged. Safe operation of Ben Hoteling: The course is approximately these vehicles can be a good, wholesome - the rider taking the course would supply family activity and in this capacity should their own ATV. not necessarily be restricted to those over the age of 14. But strict observation by a trained, Mr. Mooney: Yeah. responsible adult should be mandated and training for all riders should be mandated. Ben Hoteling: With supplying their own ATV, the course generally costs about $100 I think it’s a good, safe method of getting per person, and that would include all kids outdoors if they’re properly supervised teaching materials and the arranged rental. If and it’s a good activity. you have to rent an ATV to take the course, then of course the course then costs more. Driver licensing for these machines should

59 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Mr. Mooney: Thank you. on the course. I don’t know if there are other trained instructors on PEI. I have been Chair: Mr. McCardle. working with the Safety Council just recently in trying to set up some training for Mr. McCardle: Who is your employer, or other trainers. are you self-employed? Mr. McCardle: But if you’re making this Ben Hoteling: I’m employed by Holland recommendation that this course be College. The reason I took a trainer training mandatory, but you’re not certain if the course was my students are required to have infrastructure is in place to provide that. this ATV safety course as part of my program. I teach the wildlife conservation Ben Hoteling: This is a personal technology program. I also teach the ATV recommendation I’m making. I’m not safety course for the conservation making any recommendations on behalf of enforcement program at Holland College. the Canada Safety Council or Holland Plus I put on some courses every year as a College. private instructor. I’ve done some for the department of agriculture, for Fisheries and Mr. McCardle: No, but I mean, you’re Oceans, and different people. making the recommendation, but then you’re not sure if the infrastructure is there. Mr. McCardle: So when you charge $100, the cheque is payable to Holland College, is Ben Hoteling: No, I’m not sure, no. It could that correct? easily be put in place, though. It’s not a big - it’s a matter of training. One suggestion that Ben Hoteling: When I’m doing it for came up is the suggestion of training the Holland College, Holland College is paying conservation officers. Just like all my salary so I don’t - it’s not charged that conservation officers now are trained to way. Basically, we charge the program of the deliver the firearm safety course. Train them course for the course. to put on this course as well. They could be out there in the public putting on courses Mr. Dunn: That would be part of the from time to time. tuition. Mr. McCardle: So it’s a one-day course. Ben Hoteling: It’s part of the tuition, yeah. They just basically charged, in that instance, Ben Hoteling: It’s a one-day course. Get the they’re charged for the course materials and ATV Dealers’ Association to train - have the range rental. some of their dealers trained - to put on courses. In the US, when you buy an ATV, Mr. McCardle: So you’re suggesting that part of the cost of your ATV is the cost of we make this course mandatory. this course.

Ben Hoteling: Yes. Mr. McCardle: You have to have it before you buy the ATV. Mr. McCardle: Is the infrastructure in place for that to actually take place? Ben Hoteling: You don’t have to have it, they don’t mandate that you take the course, Ben Hoteling: On PEI, to my knowledge, but you pay for it and it’s available. when I took the trainer’s course, I and one other person from PEI were the only people Chair: Mr. Dunn.

60 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Mr. Dunn: Your course, is it based on skill But some children at a very early age - and use of the ATV or based on safety? Mr. Dunn: But I like gymnastics. Ben Hoteling: It’s both. Ben Hoteling: Fine. Some children at a very Mr. Dunn: It’s both. early age show a high degree of coordination and stamina and they have the body mass Ben Hoteling: It’s both. required. So why restrict them? It’s a tough call. I agree in a lot of ways with the Mr. Dunn: Does anybody fail the course? previous speaker that, you know, maybe - we should be protecting our children, yes. Ben Hoteling: Yes, I have had people fail But as a family activity - and I have seen that the course for showing off, unsafe where it’s a family activity - it can be a conditions. I stress right from the start that really nice thing, and why restrict it? it’s an ATV safety course and if they exhibit any unsafe riding deliberately - if it’s not Mr. Dunn: I’m just going to have visions of deliberate they’re picked up on it first. If it’s like going to the exhibition, you have to be deliberate, they’re taken right off the range. so high in order to go on a ride.

Mr. Dunn: What about - you talked about Ben Hoteling: Yeah. age by engine size - if they come with an inappropriate size? Mr. Dunn: You have to be so high in order to take the course. Ben Hoteling: They’re not allowed on the course. Ben Hoteling: I can’t speak for the Safety Council, but - Mr. Dunn: They’re not allowed on the course. Mr. Dunn: (Indistinct) ballroom.

Ben Hoteling: No, if they come with a Ben Hoteling: - there’s some validity to three-wheeler, they’re not allowed on the that. There should be some restriction as to course. If they come with an inappropriate body size and coordination. You know, engine size, they’re not allowed on the you’re going to pick up those people in this course. course and you’re going to fail them.

Mr. Dunn: How low do you go age-wise? Mr. Dunn: Okay.

Ben Hoteling: I’m not sure what the Chair: Mr. McCardle. recommendation is. I think it’s down to about 12 years old. Mr. McCardle: Did you hear Dr. Bigsby’s presentation before supper? Mr. Dunn: What’s your feeling on that as a trainer? Ben Hoteling: No, I wasn’t here for it. I couldn’t make it here this afternoon. Ben Hoteling: My feeling on that is sort of like if you were training kids in a gymnastics Mr. McCardle: She made a point about class. If you had a very clumsy child and what you’re talking about, like you may they couldn’t handle themselves properly, think you have the most adept child in the you wouldn’t want them bouncing around. world, but you don’t. That was her message

61 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 that - years ago we were talking about this Confederation Trail. It was a great interest of Ben Hoteling: Every parent thinks their mind back at that time and I think of the late child is a genius. - I can’t think of his name. Donald Deacon. He and I worked very closely, and we started Mr. McCardle: Like you’re having - I this and we worked with the past would find a problem with your formula government, and this government, as well because children mature differently. who took everything really by the horns at that time, and we were really setting a Ben Hoteling: That’s right. precedent, I think, right across Canada. We started first and we finished first in Mr. McCardle: They’re different sizes. completing that trail. There’s no age - well, you can have a 14-year old at 200 pounds. Listening to some of the people speak earlier, the women in particular, that had the Ben Hoteling: That’s what I’m saying. If problems with ATVs on the trail, it was a you just make a blanket exemption - nobody very good concern. I think we had the same under 16 can ride an ATV - you’re going to thing with the snowmobiles in the past. I exclude a lot of very capable people. Do we think with snowmobile safety and getting it want to do that? I mean, maybe we do. I into one confined area, that really eliminated don’t know the answer. In my opinion, I a lot of the problems we had with that. I think that it’s a good wholesome sport and think we had a lot of problems with those who are qualified should be allowed to snowmobiling in the earlier years. participate. With that, I’m a concerned parent of my son Chair: Any further questions? who is nine years old. He got into this foolish sport of motocross racing two years Thank you, Ben. Appreciate your input. ago. Why? I don’t know. I was brought up on a farm and I came into this thing. I never Ben Hoteling: Thanks. had a bike in my life. He got into it. We had to push him around the tracks. There was no Chair: Our next presenter is Steve racing on PEI. Where we race, we race in Dickieson. Is he here? Yes, he is here. Do Moncton, Kingston, Truro, Yarmouth, you want to begin by just reading your name Fredericton, all over the Maritimes. There into the Hansard? We want to make sure that are 12 races a year. They start in May, I we’re clear on who’s speaking. think, or April 28th this year, and they race until October. Like I say, he never saw a dirt Steve Dickieson: Okay, my name is Steve bike in his life. He got on a dirt bike and this Dickieson, for those who don’t know me. year, he became the Atlantic champion in 50 I’m a concerned parent of the age going up. cc riders. So he’s accomplished something that I didn’t think could be possible. I had the fortune of sitting here this afternoon and listening to people speak, in In saying that, I think Matt could ride with - particular Sally Lockhart, Dr. Wong, Robert he’s nine years old now - he started when he Ramsay and Scott Anderson, and they had was six. When we go to these races, these some very good input on what we were kids start racing at age four. I know age is a wanting to hear, I think, as a group. great big concern of these people. When you’re on a track at four years old and there When I first got into this back a number of are 30 people out there racing, you’d have to

62 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 see it to believe it how good they can ride have to go, and that race doesn’t come into these bikes. play. You’d never have to always have to race. You can go out and practice, leisurely At first I thought I’d have to be dreaming to ride with your parent, anyone at all. There’s even take part in this to be here and now one up in West Devon, I guess, up on the when I see it, I’m very open to it, and very other side of - against the age of going up to it when I see it, what they can do and how they learn to Mr. Dunn: Duvar. ride these bikes. When the question comes in: Are they capable at that age? They sure Steve Dickieson: Duvar, I’m sorry, yes. are, when you see them and how good they You’re all up on that. Duvar and out here, can ride. the mud root is in DeSable, there’s an upcoming track too. It’s only a matter of We were talking about this age group. I go time before we have one of these points up to the ski hills and I watch kids come races to come to PEI. It’s just a matter of down the hills at 40 km an hour. They’re time before these people can get the parking going over bumps that would scare you. We and the facilities to accommodate the think, you know, we’re not scared of that. amount of people that do come to these I’m not taking against the people that are races. against getting hurt. I’m just looking in reality what goes on in life. I hope that we don’t have to always continue to go off-Island to race. I’d very much like to We recently moved out to Milton. We race here and we do take part in the MX bought 10 acres. My daughter is six and I series here on PEI as well when they don’t bought her a little bike this summer. She got conflict with Matt’s races away. out and she drove on it. She couldn’t drive, and she loved it. I haven’t ATVs, of course, With that in ending or closing, I look around but snowmobiles and that sort of thing. With and I see the dealers sitting with a half that too, I’m looking at the dealers - the million to a million dollars in inventory amount of money - these particular races sitting there. Some of their inventory is 90 that we go to every weekend, there are up to cc, 50 cc, bikes and I just don’t think it’s a 400 bikes. It’s an all-time high in 27 years of fair thing that we can honestly and racing at River Glade in Moncton. They’ve justifiable say: No, we want it up to 16. I never seen attendance of this nature. The don’t see the reasoning for it. I think safety economic impact is unbelievable. There’s 5 is the big issue. I think we’ve proven that to 6,000 people here watching these races. and we’ve seen that, and I think this past government has worked very good with the Here on PEI it’s an upcoming thing. I think Snowmobile Association in increasing safety very strongly that we have two tracks that among the sport. I think we’ve been behind are approved and these people worked that and doing the best that we can do, and wholeheartedly to get these up and going. hopefully, we can do the same with the It’s a place for the kids to go and ride, and off-road vehicles. adults. Anybody that doesn’t know anything about bikes can go there and practice ride. Thank you.

I think when we’re talking about the ATV Chair: Questions, then, from the situation and kids and where they can go to a Committee? Mr. McCardle. confined and controlled area, it’s a perfect spot for them to go and ride. They don’t Mr. McCardle: When this resolution was

63 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 discussed in the Legislature I didn’t know intent of the discussion in the Legislature. this sport existed. When we cast our net we All of the people who spoke to the caught you people in it. Can this sport resolution there, your sport was never operate - like, maybe, I’m asking my mentioned. I, for one, didn’t know it existed. colleagues - can we design a legislation to allow this sport to continue? Steve Dickieson: Again, I was the same way up until two years ago. I couldn’t believe the Steve Dickieson: That sport of - popularity of it until I got into it, and now it’s just growing and growing and growing. Mr. McCardle: The motocross racing. Mr. McCardle: You say your son took it Steve Dickieson: Okay. up. Your son was seven. Like he didn’t just take it up on his own then. Mr. Currie: I thought the way it was explained, Mr. Chairman, if I may, by Doug Steve Dickieson: It was an overnight thing. MacEwen - you can go back and look in the Hansard - but I thought those that were on a Mr. McCardle: Did he have friends at controlled surface were not part of this. In school who had bikes? other words, am I wrong or right? Steve Dickieson: Look, we went camping. Mr. Dunn: (Indistinct) right. We camp faithfully every weekend with a group of friends. We accidentally at the Mr. Currie: Being a track that’s managed wrong time went up to Mill River Park one or watched by a club. The Off-Highway weekend and there happened to be a big race Vehicle Act is as described, off-highway, but here, come over here in West Devon. For this is a controlled environment. some crazy idea we went to watch it, and from there on out he got involved in it and Mr. Dunn: Some of the go-karts. we’ve been going there ever since. Don’t ask me why. But it’s become a passion of his Mr. Currie: Go-carts, and I think he and it’s just unbelievable. He just eats, mentioned motocross tracks or racetracks. dreams, and sleeps it.

Mr. McCardle: So we don’t catch these Chair: Further questions? people in our net. Mr. R. Brown: Yes. Mr. Currie: No, but I’d like for Marian to confirm. Chair: Yes, Richard Brown.

Chair: I think it’s a question that we’ll have Mr. R. Brown: So outside of a controlled to have answered. environment, you don’t mind the legislation, then? Mr. Currie: We’ll have to bring that up. Steve Dickieson: I don’t know about that, Chair: It’s one of the questions that has to Richard. If I was out in the backyard or be answered. somebody else’s yard and they had a bike - I never ever grew up with it. I grew up in the Mr. Currie: Okay. country and I never happened to have bikes or ATVs. But when I see it now and I see the Mr. McCardle: You know, it wasn’t the people and how they just want to go out and

64 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 enjoy themselves and ride, I’d be very thing’s pretty consistent. It seems that I think opposed to it. Because I think the training to stop it is not the answer. It’s to control it and safety - and I know working in the past, in a safety manner and in a controlled and I used to be the past president of the environment. I’ve been riding motorcycles Snowmobile Association, I know how we and snowmobiles and stuff since I was six. had to come to grips with the popularity of Before we had the groomed trails on PEI, the sport at that time. It was growing. It was people were just going everywhere. It was growing faster than what we could with the not controlled. Then once they committed to government to control it. So we thought we the Confederation Trail, it basically had to do something with it. eliminated all the problems. First of all, we got a safety issue and that The same thing with the controlled was a big thing. We got a controlled environment for the motocross racing. There environment. I think we worked very hard at are no complaints for the motocross. I totally it. I’m not speaking for everyone, but I think disagree with the age. Because I know some the sport itself has grown so much and kids who are eight years old that can outride we’ve got it down now to a pretty good some 30 year olds, not just in speed or science. With the help of the government; whatever, but in safety. Like, I’ve seen a lot they’ve done wonders. I think we’ve actually come and go and it’s only going to get set a precedent right across Canada in that, bigger and bigger. The snowmobile, as you doing that. know this year with no snow, ATV sales are going to increase drastically because there’s Chair: Any further questions? no snow. Thanks, Steve. Appreciate your input. Like I say, I think it’s about controlling it, not stopping it. If you put legislation into Steve Dickieson: Thank you. place and stop, say: You can’t ride at a certain age, they’re still going to ride. I think Chair: We are ahead of time. I’m it’s more focused on controlling it and wondering if the Committee would entertain providing safety and training on PEI. - is there anyone from the audience that wants to step forward and comment on this Chair: Any questions? Fred. issue? I appreciate the fact that you’ve been able to come here today, and I know there Mr. McCardle: What vehicles do you sell? were some people earlier that indicated to me that they may want to say a few things. Gary Dunning: We sell everything. We sell snowmobiles, ATVs, motocross bikes, street So could you, first of all, tell us who you are bikes. We sell three brands of ATVs, two and if you represent other than yourself who brands of motorcycles, two brands of that might be. snowmobiles.

Gary Dunning: My name is Gary Dunning Mr. McCardle: Your business is in and I actually own one of the recreational Charlottetown, is it? stores in PEI. Gary Dunning: That’s right. It’s North Chair: Okay. River. Actually, we have two. We own the Harley store and we own the store in North Gary Dunning: I sat here today and listened River. pretty well to all the presentations, and one

65 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006

Chair: Any further questions for this until he was six, and he can outride, I mean, presenter? Thank you very much. he’s - some of them - that’s why I totally disagree with the age. It’s the capabilities. I Mr. Dunn: I have one (Indistinct). mean, I know some kids who are 10 years old and they’re 200 pounds. It’s by the size Chair: Hold it, hold it, suddenly we’re on of them, not by the age of them. the air here. Okay, Mr. Dunn. Mr. Dunn: I talked to a fisherman the other Mr. Currie: (Indistinct) sit down so quick. day and I said: How come you don’t own a four-wheeler? He said: I would, but I got Mr. Dunn: I just want to ask a quick nowhere to drive it, and that’s - question in regard to the economics of it. It’s getting to become big business on PEI. I was Gary Dunning: I mean, I hear it all the told - time. As far as the farmer, we sell a lot of ATVs to farmers, like a big percentage. Gary Dunning: Bigger than you can probably ever imagine. Chair: Okay, Mr. Brown is next, Richard.

Mr. Dunn: I was told yesterday the guy in Mr. R. Brown: No, I got mine. Summerside sold 100 ATVs since January 1.st Chair: Okay, Mr. Currie.

Gary Dunning: I’m not going to tell you Mr. Currie: Would you agree, then, that - how many I sell, but it’s more - you mention safety, you’re all for it. Would you agree, then, if you were going to sell Mr. Dunn: Is that a ballpark? your next machine tomorrow morning, that they should take a training course before Gary Dunning: - in recreational units, it’s they step on it? more than 300. Gary Dunning: I don’t know how you can Mr. McCardle: In a month? put that in place, but I’m a big believer that there needs to be ATV training or off-road Gary Dunning: In a year. training available in PEI.

Mr. Dunn: A year. Because the factor - you Mr. Currie:: As a responsible parent, I say there’s no snow so people are sort of think anybody would want to ensure that for making the transition. kids before they step upon it, they’d have proper training to - like, some of the Gary Dunning: Right, and they’re going to submissions we had today were - we should do - like if you got someone that’s been be fining irresponsible parents for letting snowmobiling for years, he’s not going to kids take them. But if they’re not shown stop snowmobiling and do nothing else. how to drive it properly, they’re not shown - He’s going to substitute with something else. not every parent is the same. There are some I’ve already seen that, like, drastically. parents here this afternoon that take a great deal of time to teach their kids and make Mr. McCardle: He needs that fix. sure that they’re trained. So if we’re going to have a pattern, wouldn’t education and Gary Dunning: I mean. Stevie’s young safety be one that we should be adopting? fellow, I mean, he never sat on a motorcycle

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Gary Dunning: Most definitely, and Mr. Currie: Well, should that be part of our somebody mentioned earlier today, in the decision here as a committee? That those US, it’s looked at totally different than it is individuals that want to go out and harass in Canada. I mean, with every new ATV people, drive them recklessly, give the purchased there’s a safety video or DVD, industry a bad name, and provide headaches whether it be - and it’s designated to the size for us and the police and property owners, of the unit. So if it’s for a youth ATV, it’s what are we going to do if people buy a for a kid to watch and listen to and $7,000 machine and give it to a kid and just understand, and the same thing for an adult say: Go drive it? Do what you want to do one. with it.

Mr. Currie: As a businessman selling Gary Dunning: You don’t get that just in vehicles, nobody wants to see the black eye recreation. You get that with everything. I that, you know, there’s so-and-so got hurt. It mean - scares away potential customers coming. But if it’s there, do you think that’s a good Mr. Currie: I understand that. marketing tool? Gary Dunning: So I don’t have the answer Gary Dunning: The safety aspect of it? for that. I can’t answer that.

Mr. Currie: Yeah, before it leaves your Mr. Currie: That’s fair, Gary, okay. floor. You have to take the training course. Mr. Dunn: I have a quick question. Gary Dunning: It certainly isn’t going to hurt, especially on the smaller stuff, like on Chair: Mr. McCardle’s next. the youth units. Earlier today there was a doctor commented about not being able to Mr. Dunn: After him. because of the age. Well, I mean, you can go out to Brookvale Ski Park and see a six year Chair: Yeah. old going down the adult hill at 40 miles an hour. The youth ATV, you can make it that Mr. McCardle: Right now, these vehicles you can walk faster than it can go. don’t have to be registered, do they?

Mr. Currie: One more quick question, then. Gary Dunning: As far as what - Then that parent that let that kid go down at six years old on an adult hill - Mr. McCardle: Motor vehicle registration.

Gary Dunning: Yes. Gary Dunning: Yes, there is an off-road plate. You’re supposed to go in and get an Mr. Currie: - what would you do with that off-road plate. parent? We can put all kinds of legislation in place, but I’m trying to get that across today Mr. McCardle: For all these vehicles? to a couple of people, and nobody kind of wants to answer the question. As a parent - Gary Dunning: Yes.

Gary Dunning: I can’t answer that here. Mr. McCardle: Do people do that? No, I can’t say it. Not answer it, I can’t say it. Gary Dunning: I mean, that’s not up to us to do it. We give them the paperwork. It’s

67 Fisheries, Intergovernmental Affairs and Transportation 8 February 2006 the same as a vehicle. If you buy a car, you Gary Dunning: Yes, I mean, at my store, I get the registration, your tax receipt, you go wouldn’t have a problem with that. and get your plate. A good percentage of them do because we see them come back in Mr. Dunn: Okay. for service and there’s a plate on them. Gary Dunning: No, I wouldn’t have an Mr. McCardle: There was a lady said today issue with that. I just really think that this all that the bikes all look the same and there started on the age thing and I think they’re was no way of identifying them. missing - it’s not the age, because I know some 30-year olds that are not as responsible Gary Dunning: But I’m assuming that as Stevie’s nine year old kid. that’s the purpose of having that, so there is identification, that if they see somebody Mr. Dunn: Don’t be looking at Andy when going across the field, that they can mark the you say that. plate number down. Chair: Just for the record, what kind of Mr. McCardle: So there is registration for investment would you be looking at for each all those vehicles on PEI now? level of four-wheeled ATVs? Let’s start with a 50 cc and go to 90 cc. Do you want to Gary Dunning: Yes. It’s an off-road plate. give me sort of a -

Mr. Currie: In the last meeting we had, the Gary Dunning: The range of the - highways individual indicated that there were 1,200 registered and there’s 5,000 in Chair: - the cost. use. Gary Dunning: What they sell for? Gary Dunning: I don’t know what the numbers are, actually. Chair: Yeah.

Mr. Currie: Thirty-eight hundred not Gary Dunning: Twenty-five hundred to registered. 13,000.

Gary Dunning: Right, and there’s probably Chair: Twenty-five hundred. a lot more that you don’t know about. Gary Dunning: Twenty-five hundred for 50 Mr. Dunn: My question is just on the same cc. as Fred’s. Would the dealers be prepared to license them as part of the sale? Chair: Okay.

Mr. McCardle: It is the law, they have to be Gary Dunning: Then it just goes on up to registered. 13,000. I mean, it goes from 50 cc up to 800 cc. Gary Dunning: I guess that’s a possibility, yeah. I mean, that’s totally separate from Chair: What would a 90 cc sell for? this. Gary Dunning: Thirty-two, 3,500. Mr. Dunn: But it’s one issue of identification, though. Chair: Okay.

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Gary Dunning: Then it just creeps up in Mr. R. Brown: You have (Indistinct) if it’s increments. Basically it goes from 200, 250 Christmas, what are you going to do, go to and so on and so on and so on. his (Indistinct)?

Chair: Sure. Any other further questions for Gary Dunning: But that comes back to the this presenter? ski hill. I mean you shouldn’t - if you’re taking your six year old to learn how to ski, Mr. R. Brown: Just one question. you wouldn’t send him down the fast hill first, I wouldn’t think. If you did, then you Chair: Yes, Richard. need to do something with that parent.

Mr. R. Brown: Would your association, Mr. Currie: What would that be? dealer’s association be, as Cletus said: the registration, register them, and then say: Gary Dunning: Send him down with - Okay, if the legislation said there would be a $100 charge or whatever, charge for a Mr. R. Brown: (Indistinct). training course, put the training course right in the cost of it, that would encourage the Gary Dunning: I can’t say what you’d do people to take the training course. with him.

Gary Dunning: Only pertaining to what Chair: Thank you very much for your they said, 16 and under? presentation. It’s very enlightening.

Mr. R. Brown: Yeah. Gary Dunning: Thank you.

Gary Dunning: I mean, I wouldn’t see that Mr. Dunn: A different perspective. being a problem. Chair: I assume there’s no other presenters Mr. Currie: Or a certificate prior to this evening that we’ve missed. Thank you, purchase. Committee members. We meet again tomorrow in the Kensington Legion at 2:00. Mr. McCardle: Yeah, you don’t buy one Thank you for your participation. unless you have the certificate. The Committee adjourned Mr. Currie: I mean, they’re just going to pay the 100 bucks and walk out the door.

Gary Dunning: But if you’re dealing with 16 and under, it really should be left in the parents’ hands to make sure it’s put in place. The parents still should be able to take the ATV home and make sure that it’s done. I mean, again that comes back to the parents, right?

Mr. Dunn: It comes back to enforcement.

Gary Dunning: Right.

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