Printed Questions and Answers [29 Aud., 1973] Questions without Notice 663 (ii) During the same year, the corres­ (c) The Prisons Act and regulations ponding concentration of caesium- made thereunder and the Parole of 137 in milk was about 14 picocuries Prisoners Act limit early releases. There per litre. This is about 0.1 per cent remains a question of "how much earlier?" of the reference level of 10,000 pica­ and also the problem in many industrial and curies per litre. commercial undertakings of annual shut (iii) In 1972, the average concentration downs in January. of iodine-131 in milk in the Sydney area was under 0.1 picocuries per litre, or less than 0.05 per cent of the reference level of 200 picocuries per 1fi.egi$letti'u.e J\$$.Ctnhl~ litre. Thursday, 30 August, 1973 In the absence of information to the con­ trary, it is reasonable to accept these refer­ ence levels and to regard the amount of Governor's Speech: Presentation of Address in Reply­ Questions without Notice-Institute of Rural Stud­ radioactivity in milk as acceptable. ies Bill (third reading)-Dairy Industry Authority (Amendment) Bill (third reading)-Mine Sub­ sidence Compensation and Mines Rescue (Amend­ PAROLE OF PRISONERS ment) Bill (third reading)-Farm Water Sup­ plies (Amendment) Bill (third reading)-Special Mr PETERSEN asked the MINISTER OF Adjournment-Standing Orders-Inflammable Llq• uid (Amendment) Bill (third reading)-Veterin­ JusTicE-( 1) Has he received complaints ary Surgeons (Amendment) Bill (Int.)-Preven­ tion of Oil Pollution of Navigable Waters (Amend­ regarding the release of prisoners on parole ment) Bill (second reading)-Govemor's Speech: Presentation of Address in Reply-Printing Com­ or on remission of sentence just prior to the mittee-Adjournment (Child-Care Centre, Chats­ Christmas period? (2) If so-(a) Does wood)-Printed Question and Answers. this cause difficulties for those persons be­ cause of lack of employment opportunities Mr SPEAKER (THE HoN. SIR KEVIN at that period? (b) Is there any evidence ELLIS) took the chair at 11 a.m. that persons released at this time are more Mr SPEAKER offered the Prayer. likely to be recidivists than persons released when employment is available? (c) Will he GOVERNOR'S SPEECH: PRESENTATION give consideration to the release of prisoners OF ADDRESS IN REPLY at an earlier period when employment is Mr SPEAKER: Order! Upon adoption of available? the Address in Reply on Thursday last I Answer-( 1) Some views have been ex~ informed the House that it was the pleasure pressed concerning the release of prisoners of His Excellency the Governor to receive on parole or remission of sentence just prior the Address in Reply to His Excellency's to the Christmas period. Opening Speech at 3.30 p.m. today. It has now been ascertained that His Excellency (2) (a) It is a matter of common know­ will receive it at 3 p.m. instead of 3.30 p.m. ledge that the availability of employment is -that is, half an hour earlier than was pre­ reduced at given times throughout the year. viously intimated by me to the House. Some difficulties could arise because of re­ Would honourable members please note the lease prior to festive periods, particularly in change in these arrangements and be ready to leave for Government House at approxi­ the case of seasonal and low-skill workers. mately 2.40 p.m. today. . (b) Although there is no evidence to this effect it is of course desirable to ensure so QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE far as possible that gainful employment is available on release. Departmental and AUSTRALIAN FACTORS LIMITED Parole Board policy and practice takes ac­ Mr HILLS: I direct a question without count of this factor as far as the law and notice to the Premier and Treasurer. Until practicality permits. yesterday when forced to do so by public 664 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice disquiet, has the Government repeatedly re­ is well aware that it concerns the adminis­ fused to table reports by the Corporate tration of the Attorney-General. The ques­ Affairs Commission into the affairs of com­ tion asked is an intricate one and I am sure panies until any proceedings arising out of every fair-minded member of the House such inquiries have been finalized? Were would agree that it would be impossible for charges laid against Alexander Ewan Arm­ me to give an answer immediately. I do strong, Stanley Louis Mowbray Eskell and not know much about the whole business. Walter Septimus Lamerton as former direc­ It is an involved legal question about a tors of Australian Factors Limited, and did case that went on for some years. The a jury acquit them on 27th March, 1972? Government is anxious to make available all Did Australian Factors Limited collapse information possible. I shall refer the ques­ after a loss of $1.5 million in the financial tion to the Attorney-General and I suggest year 1962-1963 and at that time did Mr to the Leader of the Opposition that should Armstrong attribute the writing off of he desire any more information on the floor $926,069 of doubtful debts mainly to the of the House he might direct his request actions of two company officers whom he to the Attorney-General who is the appro­ accused of an elaborate plan of deception? priate Minister. As these officers have not been charged and the Crown's case appears to have been Mr HILLS: The head of the Govern­ finalized, why has not the Attorney-General ment is responsible. tabled the report of the Corporate Affairs Commission? Sir ROBERT ASKIN: And I hope to remain as such for a long while yet. The Mr McCAw: Do you want to try them question was perfectly legitimate and I do on the floor of the House? not query it except the part at the tail end which, I repeat, did not do the honourable Mr SPEAKER: Order! gentleman justice as it was quite unfair and Mr HILLS: Whose name and what is unwarranted. the Premier and the Attorney-General keep­ ing secret by not tabling that report? BLUE MOUNTAINS CHURCH OF ENGLAND GRAMMAR SCHOOL Sir ROBERT ASKIN: I can assure the Leader of the Opposition that as far as I Mr COATES: My question without am concerned, and I am certain that I notice is directed to the Minister for Edu­ speak for the Attorney-General too, the cation. On previous occasions have I Government is not protecting anybody's arranged for a deputation from the Church name in relation to this matter. The Leader of England authorities to the Minister to of the Opposition does not do justice to the discuss with him financial difficulties affect­ high position he holds by making sugges­ ing the old-established Church of England tions of that nature. The reason for some Grammar School at Wentworth Falls, which delay in tabling the papers would be obvious is in my electorate? This morning did the from the size of the file laid upon the standing committee of the Sydney diocese table yesterday. Officers of the Corporate announce its decision to close the school? Affairs Commission have been working flat Will this lead to the dismissal of about forty out-- professional and domestic staff and also re­ sult in 200 children enrolled in classes Mr HILLs: On other matters entirely. ranging from fourth class primary standard Sir ROBERT ASKIN: In the early part to sixth form secondary standard being ab­ of his question the Leader of the Opposi­ sorbed into the State school system? Is the tion suggested that yesterday the Govern­ financial problem of the grammar school ment had been forced to lay certain papers climaxed by the federal Government's clas­ on the table. This is very much a legal sification of it which will result in a sub­ question and the Leader of the Opposition stantial reduction in its annual income? Questions without Notice [30 Auo., 1973] Questions without Notice 665 Will the Minister investigate immediately [Interruption] the matters I have raised and endeavour to provide further State assistance to the Mr SPEAKER: Order! school? Mr WILLIS: That the Commonwealth Mr WILLIS: I am aware of the recent Government has not accepted the recom­ financial difficulties that the Blue Mountains mendation of the Karmel committee that Grammar School has been encountering. private schools falling within category A As the honourable member implied in his or B should receive for at least the next question, recently I had a long and interest­ year or two similar assistance to that pro­ ing talk with Bishop Robinson and Arch­ vided for them in 1972-73, amounts to a deacon Fillingham who are concerned with win for the left-wing of the Australian the administration of this fine school on the Labor Party, which is dedicated to the de­ Blue Mountains. They told me about the struction of the private-school system in school's financial problems, expressed some Australia. concern about its capacity to continue and On this occasion the left wing of the inquired whether there was any way in Labor Party won a victory and, as a result, which the State Government could assist many private schools will go out of exis­ by way of State-aid programmes in meet­ tence because of the inability to continue ing the needs of the school. Regrettably on the meagre, if any, assistance they will I had to inform them that there was no now receive from Canberra. In those cir­ way in which the State could assist the cumstances, it is not surprising that the Blue school to overcome the particular difficul­ Mountains Grammar school council reached ties confronting it. I expressed the hope this decision. I regret that this has happened ! that the school would not go out of exist­ and that there is no way under State assis­ ence as I felt that if it were able to increase tance that I can help them. I believe this is its student enrolment it would become a a lesson to the community, because if the much more viable proposition and would Commonwealth Government is deliberately progress. The situation would have been setting about driving private schools out of much better, of course, if the school could existence, it has achieved its first success have received additional financial aid from today. the Commonwealth Government. It was with even greater regret that I ALEXANDER BARTON noticed in the Karmel committee's recom­ Mr EINFELD: I ask the Premier and mendations that this school, which could Treasurer a question without notice. Does be described as anything but wealthy, was included in category B. In essence, this the interim report of the inspectors reveal would mean that its per capita financial that the share buying public have lost at assistance from the Commonwealth Govern­ least $20 million in the Barton companies? ment will decline. This position has been Were the inspectors appointed on 4th April, brought about by applying the extraordin­ 1973? Did Barton, his son and their wives arily foolish formula for categorizing pri­ leave for Hong Kong on 17th April, 1973, vate schools. As this school has relatively small classes compared with those in other without any hindrance from Government private schools it was classified as being authorities although it must have been among the top schools in terms of resources. quickly obvious to the investigators and the I had not heard that the school is virtually Government that the companies were bank­ unable to continue until it was mentioned rupt? Did not the Government have power by the honourable member for Blue to require the Bartons to remain in Australia Mountains, but in view of what I was to answer questions which would assist in told previously I am not surprised at the inquiries? Has the Government made this news. This is the first of many fine private schools in this State that will be any attempt to trace Barton, who has fled driven to the wall by the education policy the country and obviously has no intention of the federal Labor Government. of returning of his own volition? Is the 666 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice

Government making any effort to recover question was being asked that the New shareholders' funds and why is it not using South Wales Government had no power to every legal avenue available to bring about stop him from leaving the country, and that the return to New South Wales of the the Commonwealth Government has that Bartons? power but did not exercise it. Sir ROBERT ASKIN: I do not know that Mr McCAw: It has power under the Pass­ the date mentioned by the Deputy Leader of port Act of 1938. the Opposition is correct, but I accept it-- Sir ROBERT ASKIN: My colleague the Mr EINFELD: It is in the report. Attorney-General assures me also that the interim report has been tabled, and that Sir ROBERT ASKIN: At least I listened further interim reports will be tabled. to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition All the information possible that comes to while he asked his question. I confess that us from the Corporate Affairs Commis­ all the dealings between these interwoven sion concerning the Barton companies companies are too involved for me. I have will be tabled and will be made public. not studied them and I do not propose to However, the investigation is an enor­ do so. I propose to leave that to the Attor­ mous task as all these companies are inter· ney-General. I have said on the floor of woven and a tremendous amount of sift· the House that I do not know any of the ing has to be done in the commission. parties concerned, except Mr Armstrong, whom I knew only casually. I am quite sure Mr HILLS: A lot of money is involved. that that is the position with all the members on this side of the House. If members of Sir ROBERT ASKIN: This sort of thing the Opposition believe anything to the con­ has happened before; it is a dreadful state trary, they have only to get up and say so. of affairs and I am not trying to lessen I have had a look at the papers and, frankly, the importance of it. H

STATE SUPERANNUATION FUND would have to be made on whether the Mr BROWN: I ask the Minister of fund itself could bear any part of the in­ Justice whether the Government since it creases that would be necessary, or whether came to office has consistently improved the the employer would have to bear the full provisions of the State Superannuation Act. burden. Is the Government keen to further improve I believe that this matter is causing some these provisions, particularly in respect of concern amongst existing pensioners of the people who retired a number of years ago fund. Many representations have been with a small number of units and are now in made to me by honourable members on receipt of a small pension? Can the Minis­ both sides of the House. The Government ter inform the House of the present posi­ is awaiting the result of the actuarial report. tion in regard to this particular fund? I hope to be in a position to give a proper answer to the honourable member for Mr MADDISON: In answer to the hon­ Raleigh within a short space of time. It is a ourable member for Raleigh, it is true that matter of some importance that pensions since the Government came to office some should maintain their equity in accordance important changes have been made to the with changing money values. State Superannuation Act which have pro­ vided enormously increased benefits to the COMPANY CRIMINALS contributors to the fund-- Mr FERGUSON: _My question without Mr EINFELD: The superannuated per­ notice is directed to the Premier and Trea­ sons are disappointed about it. surer. At a meeting yesterday of the Liberal Women's Group did the Premier and Trea­ Mr MADDISON: --and also to pen­ surer call for a crusade against the phantom sioners. The results could well be dis­ figures of reds, pinkies and socialists? Will appointing if the stock exchange continues the Premier with equal energy embark upon to lose so much value as a result of the a crusade against the activities of business federal Government's actions. The assets and company criminals who are raiding the of the State superannuation fund, which shareholding and investing public and rob­ total approximately $650 million, have been bing them of millions of dollars? the subject of an actuarial valuation, as is required pursuant to the Act, so that a Sir ROBERT ASKIN: Apparently the honourable member for Merrylands knows report can be made on the stability of the a little more about these shady comvanies fund. I expect that within the next week than I do. or so I shall have that report. The Govern­ ment has been waiting for the report in SECOND INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT FOR NEW SOUTH WALES order to be able to determine the extent to which the fund may be able to play Mr RUDDOCK: My question is directed to the Premier and Treasurer. Have valu0a its part in contributing to the Government's of land dropped sharply in the Galston­ undertaking that pensions would be adjusted Dural-Castle Hill area following the an­ on an eighteen-month basis to keep pace nouncement about a second international with the fall in money values. airport? Have there been any recent sales On previous occasions-! think in the of property in the area and could any of them have been affected by prior knowledge parliamentary session which concluded in of the federal Government's intention? March this year-questions were asked of me in regard to the undertaking given by Sir ROBERT ASKIN: I do not know any of the circumstances concerning individuals. the Government that it would make appro­ I did read in the press this morning that Mr priate adjustments to pensions received Rubensohn, who had been named in the under the Superannuation Act. I indicated press the day before, denied that there was at that time that before the Government anything improper. I believe that that is could make a decision a determination where the matter has to rest. 668 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice SECURITIES EXCHANGE COMMISSION did not have a Securities Industry Act until Mr MULOCK: My question without this Government came to office. Subse­ notice is addressed to the Attorney-General. quently, although the Act was working, it Is it a fact that Alexander Barton and his was not working well enough, and so it was associates could not have swindled share­ amended and strengthened. Some other holders of some $20 million and creditors of States have securities industry legislation at least $16 million if the Sydney stock based on ours. Until the Government came exchange had taken reasonable precautions to office stockbrokers were not required to to protect the public? Is it a fact that the contribute, as they are now, to the protec­ Sydney stock exchange assisted the Barton tion of the public in the rare cases of com­ group to bring off this huge swindle by giv­ pany defalcation, in parallel with the pro­ ing it a degree of respectability by allowing tection of the public required under the trading in shares? Is it a fact, also, that provisions relating to the trust accounts of investigations into the Barton companies solicitors, real estate agents and others. commenced on 4th April and that some of This Government has done more to pro­ the companies are still listed on the stock tect the investing public than any of its pre­ exchange? Will the Attorney-General agree decessors. The honourable member for that the actions of the stock exchange could Nepean was not a member of Parliament have given many unsuspecting investors the at the time, but honourable members oppo­ impression that nothing was seriously wrong site who were here know that company with the companies? failures occurred when the Labor Party was in government for twenty-four years. I re­ Mr JACKETT: On a point of order. This mind the honourable gentleman, himself a question is obviously asking for an opinion lawyer who should know it and presum­ and to that extent it is out of order. ably does not, that it was in the time of a Mr SPEAKER: Order! I think the question Labor government that the Latec company is in order. I hope the honourable member failed and it took four years for the inspect­ will finish it because it is becoming lengthy. or to produce a report. The honourable gentleman who asks this question, and who Mr MULOCK: Will the Government now set up a securities exchange commis­ should know from his professional experi­ sion to give the investing public the protec­ ence, will learn now that there is a Cor­ tion not being provided by the stock porate Affairs Commission, an autono­ exchange? mous body, that was established not by the Labor Party in its 24 years in govern­ Mr McCAW: The United States of America has had a-- ment, but by the present Liberal-Country party Government. Mr JoNEs: Watergate? [Interruption] Mr McCAW: That is true, and it has also had since 1933 a securities and exchange Mr MuLOCK: Answer the question. commission. Mr McCAW: I am answering the Mr JoNEs: That means you are going to question. appoint one? Mr SPEAKER: Order! I call the honour­ Mr SPEAKER: Order! I call the honour­ able member for Nepean and the honour­ able member for Waratah to order. able member for Davidson to order. Mr McCAW: The United States of Mr McCAW: Even though he is a lawyer, America has seen many vast company fail­ it seems that the honourable member for ures. This State Government has done more by its legislation in the past three or four Nepean is ignorant of the fact that it took years to protect the investing public than four years to examine a smaller company any of its predecessors. New South Wales crash in the time of a La~or government, Questions without Notice [30 Auo., 1973] Questions without Notice 669 and it has taken the officers of the Corpor­ after officers of the commission interviewed ate Affairs Commission only four months to representatives of the organization-and, produce the report on the Barton group of within ten minutes of my getting a submis­ companies that I was able to publish sion from the commission-! signed an or­ yesterday. der of priority inspections. The Leader of the Opposition knows it because he asked Mr STEWART: That is the Mallam report. a question about it in the last session of Parliament, and I have no doubt whatever Mr McCAW: As I am reminded of the honourable member for Campbelltown, I that the honourable member for Campbell­ should say that on the floor of this House town knew it too. the other night he said that I had ignored Mr L. B. KELLY: On a point of order. a request by the Shareholders Association I think you have been fair to the Minister to conduct an investigation into this mat­ in allowing him to reply to the interjection, ter. The honourable gentleman knew the but Standing Order 151 does not allow a facts, and deliberately misrepresented them Minister to make improper remarks about in this House. a member on this side of the House. [Interruption] Mr SPEAKER: Order! What improper remark are you referring to? Mr SPEAKER: Order! Mr L. B. KELLY: The standing order Mr F. J. WALKER: On a point of order. does not spell out what the improper re­ The Attorney-General is now trying to con­ marks are. The Minister is making a lot tinue a debate that was concluded in this of remarks attacking the integrity of the House some nights ago. honourable member for Campbelltown. Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Attorney­ Mr SPEAKER: Order! If you cannot tell General is answering a question and this me the improper remark of which you com­ part of his answer has particular reference plain, I cannot rule upon it. to a provocative interjection by a member Mr F. J. WALKER: On a point of order. of the Opposition which was relevant but The standing orders require that a reply to grossly disorderly. a question must be relevant to the question. The only relevance that this reply has to Mr McCAW: The honourable member the question relates to an interjection. Al­ for Campbelltown made that statement though you leniently might allow the Min­ when he knew, or should have known before ister to make a brief reference to the inter­ taking responsibility for it, that the Share­ jection, you cannot allow him, within the holders Association's complaint was made standing orders, to continue for several min­ on 26th March, 1973, and was published in utes in reply to an interjection that has no relevance. the press on the following day. If he does not know, I can tell him and other honour­ Mr SPEAKER: Order! I think the Min­ able members that officers of the Corpor­ ister's reply is relevant to the generality of ate Affairs Commission interviewed repres­ the question asked by the honourable mem­ ber for Nepean. The honourable member entatives of the Shareholders Association on on the Opposition side who interjected 28th March, 1973. The honourable member apparently agrees with me. for Campbelltown should have known also before taking responsibility for his statement Mr McCAW: Within ten minutes of which, whether he knew it or not, was a being made aware of the complaint of the association to which the honourable mem­ lying statement, that the complaint of the ber for Campbelltown referred I signed an Shareholders Association was one of the order appointing inspectors whose first in­ reasons why, on 4th April, six days after terim report I tabled yesterday. I repudiate the complaint was published and five days the lie that he might unwittingly have told. 670 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice

Mr STEWART: How can anyone tell a Mr Cox: I withdraw and apologize. lie unwittingly? Mr McCAW: It is remarkable that the [Interruption] honourable member for Nepean is the first lawyer on the Opposition side to have asked Mr SPEAKER: Order! The interjections a question on a legal matter this session. must cease. Up till now the Leader of the Opposition Mr McCAW: I assume that the honour­ and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition able member for Campbelltown made that have asked such questions. Nevertheless, I mistake unwittingly when he spoke on the pay tribute to the honourable member for floor of the House. Now that he knows Nepean for having the grace and honesty the facts perhaps he will take the earliest to address his question to the responsible opportunity of making amends. In reply Minister. further to the honourable member for Mr EINFELD: Is the Premier not respon- Nepean, I must say that his violent attack sible? · on the stock exchange was quite unwar­ ranted. The stock exchange does not exist Mr McCAW: I said the responsible Min­ to guarantee the credit of companies regis­ ister. The Leader of the Opposition and tered on it. No stock exchange anywhere Deputy Leader of the Opposition ignored in the world assumes that responsibility. the Minister responsible for these matters The honourable member's remarks are and addressed their questions to the head highly and offensively critical of men who of government, who gave magnificent are carrying on an honest business-much replies. more honestly than the Leader of the Oppo­ sition has been carrying on here in the past [Interruption] few days. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Gentlemen, I must Mr HILLS: On a point of order. say I am a little tired of disorder on both sides of the House. I have called for order Mr McCAW: Much mofe honestly-­ repeatedly. I do not think there is an Mr Cox: Sit down, you humbug. honourable member on either side who has not been in error many times. If there Mr HILLS: The Attorney-General's re­ are any more interjections I will have the marks about my carrying on are offensive offending member removed without further to me. Any reference of that sort is highly warning. offensive to me and ill becomes the Attor­ ney-General. He was merely asked a ques­ Mr McCAW: The honourable member tion about persons trading on the stock for Nepean, in view of his profession, if exchange, whether a whole series of com­ nothing else, should know that the stock panies that have fallen apart were still trad­ exchange is not a guarantor of the financial ing and whether people were losing money. integrity of companies listed on it. It has I do not know why he should make any stringent rules on such matters as the listing reference to me; I do not own any shares, of companies and the proportion of share­ anyway. holdings. Its rules are stricter now than they were when the Labor Government left Mr SPEAKER: Order! Is the Leader of office in this State. Never, however, has the Opposition asking that the remark be it been possible for rules to be made that withdrawn? will protect all the people all the time Mr HILLs: Yes. against all the mischief that can happen. Section 18 of the Crimes Act has failed to Mr SPEAKER: Then I ask the Attorney­ prevent murder on some occasions, though General to withdraw. it may have deterred many people who Mr McCAW: Might I ask in return that might otherwise have committed the crime. the honourable member for Auburn with­ The fact is that the laws applying to com­ draw and apologize for the word humbug? panies are stronger now than they were Questions without Notice [30 Auo., 1973] Questions without Notice 671 when we came to office. They may need The board says that it cannot be stated with further strengthening: and when that certainty how many of these accidents might appears to be necessary, and when the un­ have been avoided had proper gear been certainty of the Commonwealth's threat carried. The board's report continues: to legislate in this and other fields with a It is known, however, that in the case of view to taking over from the States is three of the fatalities, safety equipment was removed, leaving the States free to do the carried in the vessel but was not used. job that the founding fathers and the people Referring to another incident the board re­ of Australia expected them to do, there ported that: may be less reason for honourable mem­ Three fishermen failed to return to Nowra bers like the honourable member for from a fishing expedition in the open sea and it Nepean to make sneering references to is possible that if distress warning equipment honest people who are doing their best in had been carried the attention of rescue craft the circumstances. would have been attracted. As to whether this Government is taking BOATING SAFETY any steps to control vessels in New South Mr DOYLE: I ask the Premier and Trea­ Wales waters the board said: surer whether last summer there was an­ With the benefit of the views of the Council other crop of boating fatalities in the for the Promotion of Safe Boating and having consulted marine authorities in other States on estuaries and off the coast of New South the subject of uniformity, the board has ap­ Wales. Have there been two similar trage­ proached the Government for legislative dies in the past few days? Could many of authority to enable it to introduce regulations these accidents have been avoided if the covering the carriage of safety equipment on pleasure craft involved had been adequately board pleasure vessels. equipped and the crew properly instructed? There is some contention and controversy Is the Government taking any steps to re­ among people who own small watercraft. quire that pleasure vessels in New South Some of them feel that undue restriction Wales be adequately equipped in the in­ on their rights as citizens is unwarranted terests of safety? and do not want regulations to be pro­ claimed telling them in what waters they Sir ROBERT ASKIN: What the honour­ may use their boats, and so on. Other able member suggests in his question is people-obviously the honourable member quite right: regrettably there have been for Vaucluse is in this category-feel that boating tragedies within the past few weeks, the responsible authorities should take and previously. It is also correct to suggest greater precautions to protect people against that if greater care had been taken by the victims themselves-and perhaps if the their own actions. Doubtless some people regulations had been stricter-some of the take undue risks. The Maritime Services tragedies could have been avoided. I be­ Board's request to the Government is re­ lieve my best way of dealing with this ceiving attention. My colleague the Minister matter is to quote from three paragraphs for Lands has reminded me that in the near of advice that I received three weeks ago future there is to be a conference on this from the Maritime Services Board. This issue between responsible Ministers from the followed questions that I asked arising out various States. I compliment the honour­ of inquiries and suggestions by a body able member for Vaucluse on the keen in­ known as the small boat safety committee, terest he has consistently taken in this mat­ which had asked the board to consider ter. If in the future a better safety code is problems such as those raised by the hon­ drawn up for the protection of owners of ourable member for Vaucluse. I shall read small craft it will be due largely to the the relevant extracts from the letter from efforts of the honourable member for the Maritime Services Board. The first is: Vaucluse who has been on the job for quite The board's records show that there were 13 a while and has spent much time and effort fatalities within the six months period extending from 1st October, 1972 to 31st March, 1973. in pressing this cause. 672 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice

ALEXANDER BARTON co-operation from the Queensland, Victorian Mr MALLAM: I wish to ask the Premier and Australian governments? Will the and Treasurer a question without notice. Minister assure the House that the New Did the Commissioner for Corporate Affairs South Wales Government will take every when summarizing the financial position of action possible to combat this menace? the Barton group of companies estimate the realizable value of assets in thirty companies Mr CRAWFORD: It is true that this at less than $1 million whereas their book year New South Wales faces what appears value was disclosed at more than $34 mil­ to be the greatest threat from plague locusts lion? What action does the Government that has confronted the State for thirteen intend to take to tighten up company law years. Most honourable members would be so that book values of assets will reflect aware that already approximately 40 million proper realizable value of those assets and acres in the Western Division has been therefore give a true guide to intending plagued to some degree or other. The Gov­ investors? ernment has encountered difficult problems in dealing with this plague in the normal Sir ROBERT ASKIN: The honourable manner. I raised this matter in August last member's request is not unreasonable. As a at the Australian Agricultural Council meet­ government we try to give the best protec­ ing in Darwin. I received a sympathetic tion we can to investors. If there is a weak­ hearing from the other States affected and ness in the law and it can be corrected it subsequently a conference was held in Syd­ should be remedied. It is open to any mem­ ney on Monday and Tuesday of this week. ber, and I ask members to do this, to point That gathering was attended by representa­ to legislative weaknesses and suggest to the tives from the governments of New South Government where action might be taken Wales, South Australia, Victoria and to overcome them. The import of the Queensland, the Commonwealth Department honourable member's question is that a of Primary Industries, the Commonwealth weakness does exist in that in certain in­ Scientific and Industrial Research Organ­ stances information which should have been ization as well as from the defence forces. made available to investors has not been The situation was fully examined at that supplied. If that is the situation something meeting and I understand, though I have should be done about it. I shall be glad to not yet received a recommendation in writ­ confer with my colleague the Attorney­ ing, that plans were drawn up to establish General, within whose administration the a plague locust commission which, it is Corporate Affairs Commission falls, on the hoped, will be given a charter to formulate question posed by the honourable member plans to combat this menace in the future. for Campbelltown and on whether or not Unfortunately no great progress was made in legislative action is necessary to overcome dealing with the immediate threat. the situation he raises. The New South Wales Government has asked the federal Government to provide GRASSHOPPER PLAGUE aircraft to fight this potential plague. New Mr FISCHER: My question is directed South Wales has sufficient spray but will be to the Minister for Agriculture and is with­ short of aircraft and trained personnel, out notice. Is a major grasshopper plague, especially in the Western Division. This with a potential of devastating countless State will use every available resource in co­ thousands of acres of pastures planted for operation with pastures protection boards the coming season, imminent throughout and landowners. It has been estimated that New South Wales? Would such devastation this year the fight against plague locusts cause a major increase in food prices not could cost $1 million. Whether the Com­ only in New South Wales but throughout monwealth Government offers assistance or Australia? Can the Minister advise the not, the New South Wales Government will House what progress has been made to gain do everything possible, expensive though it Questions without Notice [30 Auo., 1973] Standing Orders 673 might be, to eliminate this threat to our STANDING ORDERS pastures and to our agricultural future. I Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for assure the honourable member and the Education [11.57]: I move: House that the Government will leave no That Standing Orders 40A, 49, 57, 74, 79, stone unturned in ensuring that its plan of 122A, 123A, 142A and the desirability of adopt­ action is successful. ing Standing Orders to regulate procedure con­ cerning Ministerial statements, be referred to the Standing Orders Committee for considera­ tion and report. Honourable members will be aware that INSTITUTE OF RURAL STUDIES BILL three years ago there was a thorough review THIRD READING of all standing orders of the Legislative As­ Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr sembly. Since that time criticism and com­ Crawford. plaint have been voiced both inside and outside the House by honourable members from both sides concerning the operation of DAIRY INDUSTRY AUTHORITY standing orders, some of which were (AMENDMENT) BILL amended in 1970. The motion now before THIRD READING the House refers to standing orders that Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr have been brought to my attention as Crawford. Leader of the Government in this House and the Government is of the opinion that they should be reconsidered by the Standing MINE SUBSIDENCE COMPENSATION Orders Committee. It is not usual to have AND MINES RESCUE (AMENDMENT) a complete review of standing orders as fre­ BILL quently as every three years, but as sugges­ THIRD READING tions have been made that some standing Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr orders ought to be amended for the purpose of facilitating the work of the House, the Fife. Government considers it appropriate for the Standing Orders Committee to meet to con­ FARM WATER SUPPLIES (AMENDMENT) sider those suggestions. BILL For the benefit of honourable members, THIRD READING Standing Order 40A, which is referred to in Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr the motion, relates to the days and hours Willis on behalf of Mr Freudenstein. that the House sits. Standing Order 49 deals with a motion for adjournment of the SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT House for the purpose of discussing a speci­ fic matter which an honourable member Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for Education '[11.55]: I move: considers should have urgent consideration. Standing Order 57 relates to the laying of That, unless otherwise ordered, this House at its rising This Day do adjourn until Tuesday, papers on the table of the House. This has 11th September, 1973, at Half-past Two recently been the subject of discussion in o'clock, p.m. the House. Standing Order 74 relates to This is a general procedural motion that is routine business and the sequence followed moved when the House is contemplating on each sitting day. Standing Order 75 deals a week's recess. Honourable members will with questions without notice. Standing be aware that the House has passed a reso­ Orders 122A and 123A cover the procedure lution relating to next week when the Cham­ followed on private members' days. Stand­ ber is to be made available for the Austra­ ing Order 142A refers to time limits that are lian Constitution Convention. imposed on speeches in various types of Motion agreed to. debates. No standing order exists at the 43 674 Standing Orders [ASSEMBLY] Standing Orders moment to deal with ministerial statements, We should be able to say to each other and your only guides, Mr Speaker, are the that we believe some standing orders should precedents and practice both here and in be changed for the good order and conduct the House of Commons; therefore, it might of this Parliament. No such interchange took well be appropriate if there were a stand­ place between the Minister and myself, or ing order to cover this important aspect of between him and any other member on this parliamentary proceedings. side of the House. We must lodge a serious For the benefit of honourable members protest against what we believe to be dis­ who constitute the Standing Orders Commit­ courteous and even sinister conduct. Per­ tee, I conclude by saying that I do not haps the Minister should be known as the believe this will involve a great deal of dis­ sinister .Minister. This is a serious state of cussion in committee and, although it should affairS!, when we can reach the present involve meetings over the next few weeks, impasse- it could -well be that the committee's delib­ Mr SPEAKER: Order! I do not think the erations would be concluded well before honourable member is in order in debating Christmas so that whatever amendments now the failure of communication between that might be recommended in its report himself and the leader of the House. He has could be incorporated in the standing orders, made reference to it, but I cannot allow him if approved by the House, well before the to pursue the point. end of the calendar year. Mr EINFELD: Mr Speaker, I am en­ Mr EINFELD (Waverley), Deputy titled to lodge complaints from this side of Leader of the Opposition 02.2]: It is gen­ the House concerning conduct that is con­ erally accepted that this is a changing world. ducive to poor relationships in regard to The motion that has been moved by the this very motion. If members from this Minister illustrates the change of conduct side of the House are to attend meetings of that is rapidly occurring in the community. the Standing Orders Committee feeling re­ However, one would have thought that the sentment at lack of courtesy by the Minister Minister, as a matter of courtesy, would in charge of the House, that is not con­ have discussed with me, representing mem­ ducive to reasonable and satisfactory dis­ bers on this side, any suggestion for the cussion of these matters. With due respect alteration of some standing orders. This to you, Mr Speaker, I submit that I am would have given me the opportunity of entitled to complain for myself and on be­ saying that some other standing orders half of my forty-four colleagues, and to should be reviewed also. We could have point out that we are unanimous that this had a courteous conversation, not in com­ sort of poor relationship is deleterious to mittee or in club-a phrase often used by the general conduct of Parliament. We have the Minister-but as a general matter of no objection to meeting and discussing proper, normal procedure. I have good reason to complain about the method of whether the standing orders should be communication-indeed, the absence of amended to assist in the more satisfactory communication-in matters of this sort. The conduct of the Parliament. We know, of absence of communication in such matters course, we are out-numbered and out-voted is rapidly changing the situation in this constantly. Parliament. The Minister has not even thought that The fact that we on this side of the we also might have some ideas about what House represent different points of view other standing orders might be changed. and come into this Parliament to help Had we been forewarned that he was to human beings and human conduct, and are introduce this motion, we could have quickly opposed to those who represent big business, supported him and it may not have been does not make us enemies of the Minister, necessary for me to move an amendment in the sense that we cannot communicate that I foreshadow. We could have discussed with each other on a civilized, honest basis. these matters more conveniently when they Standing Orders [30 Auo., 1973] Standing Orders 675 were referred to the Standing Orders Com­ The appointment of a committee of privi­ mittee. We should like to discuss the hours leges is long overdue, and members of Par­ of sitting, and the motion for the adjourn­ liament--certainly those on this side of the ment of the House under Standing Order House-take the view that certain privileges 49, the sequence of business on each sitting should be given to them. day, private members' day, questions with­ out notice, time limits on speeches, min­ These are things which the Minist.:r, if isterial statements and all the other matters. he would hide his steely obstinacy, should However, honourable member on this side accept as a matter of reason and logic. If of the Chamber believe other important he had spoken to me before he moved the matters should be discussed by the Standing motion, I should have been delighted to Orders Committee when it meets for the have had a conversation with him, and to first time since the general review of the suggest these additional matters for discus­ standing orders in 1970. Therefore, I sion by the Standing Orders Committee. I move: am sure that he would have been impressed with the logic and sense of the sub­ That the Question be amended by leaving out all words after "142A" with a view to in­ mission, and would have automatically serting "208, 209, 395 and the desirability of accepted my suggestions. If that had hap­ adopting Standing Orders to (a) regulate pro­ pened, there would have been no need for cedure concerning Ministerial Statements; (b) me to complain about lack of communica­ provide for a Grievance Day; and (c) provide for the appointment of a Committee of Privi­ tion, discourtesy, or unfriendliness. leges, be referred to the Standing Orders Com­ mittee for consideration and report." Mr MAHONEY (Parramatta) [12.10]: The Opposition feels there is a need for a I shall outline the additional matters that review of the standing orders set out in I have mentioned for inclusion in the the Minister's motion and has no objection motion. Standing Orders 208 and 209 deal to this course. There is a widespread belief with divisions. We believe there is room among honourable members on this side of the House that many of the standing for further discussion on divisions and what orders should be reviewed. For example, should happen in regard to Standing Order a review should be made of Standing Order 209. Standing Order 395 is a most import­ 49, which deals with a motion for adjourn­ ant provision, which should be examined ment of the House to consider an urgent in the light of activities since the last re­ matter. There is a need also to review view of the standing orders. On that occa­ Standing Order 57, which deals with the sion Standing Order 395 was not amended. laying of papers on the table of the House. In this connection the House has come up It was approved on 1st May, 1964, and against some serious problems recently. deals with the suspension of standing orders. Standing Order 79, which deals with ques­ The Opposition believes that the time spent tions without notice, is another one that on points of order should not be deducted we feel it is time to review. from the ten minutes allowed for debate Apart from the standing orders set out on a motion for the suspension of standing in the Minister's motion, some others should orders. be reviewed. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition has said that consideration Further, we believe there should be pro­ should be given to the establishment of a vision for a grievance day. This procedure grievance day. In the federal Parliament has been most successful in the Aus­ provision of a grievance day has made that tralian Parliament, where members are able, institution much more democratic. It is without let or hindrance, to put their griev­ popular and attracts many listeners to the ances and the grievances of their con­ radio broadcasts of the proceedings of that stituents. Such a provision for this Parlia­ Parliament. Moreover, it gives back­ ment would enable this to be done for the bencher& a chance to air grievances about good of the people of New South Wales. matters affecting their electorates and the 676 Standing Orders [ASSEMBLY] Standing Orders

community generally. The possibility of Mr JACKSON: I am addressing myself establishing a grievance day is another mat­ to the amendment. Surely, during a debate ter that should be considered by the Standing of this nature when matters are to be re­ Orders Committee. Consideration should be ferred to the Standing Orders Committee, it given also to the appointment of a com­ is competent for an honourable member to mittee of privileges in this House. Such mention any shortcomings or difficulties he a committee operates in the House of Com­ is experiencing as. a result of the restrictive mons and when I was in London recently nature of the standing orders and to speak I made some inquiries and learnt that it of the urgent need for some amendments, works most effectively. At least we in this to be made to the standing orders. Parliament ought to examine its procedures with a view to adoption of the idea in this Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable House. member should confine himself to the Mr WILLIS: I will accept the amend­ motion and the amendment. ment moved by the Deputy Leader of the Mr JACKSON: Then I shall speak to the Opposition. amendment. It is obvious that honourable Mr MAHONEY: Good. I might mention members are becoming more and more that consideration should be given also to restricted as a result of the many lengthy more modem methods of counting divisions: replies by Ministers to questions at ques­ the present practice is outdated. Modem tion time, which are undoubtedly minis­ methods of counting divisions by the use terial statements. The Standing Orders Com­ .of electronic devices are used in other mittee should define--- parliaments and they are quicker and more efficient than our present method. This is Mr WILLis: That is a reflection on the another idea that should be examined by Chair. the Standing Orders Committee with a view Mr JACKSON: No, Mr Speaker. The to adoption here. In view of the Minister's Chair needs to be assisted by the standing interjection that he is willing to accept the orders. I point out that there is no standing amendment, I shall not delay the House order governing the sub judice rule, on further. which I refer the Minister to a statement Mr JACKSON (Heathcote) [12.14]: All made by the Chief Justice of Victoria only honourable members must be concerned last Tuesday. about the restrictions that are placed on Mr SPEAKER: Order! What has that got the representatives of the people in this to do with the motion or the amendment? Parliament. I have been a member of this House for over eighteen years and I believe Mr JACKSON: The point is that there is more restrictions are placed on honourable no standing order that gives you, Mr members today that in any other period of Speaker, a guide for the application of this my service here. rule in the House. Mr SPEAKER: Order! To what part of Mr SPEAKER: Order! That is not what the motion is' the honourable member the motion or amendment deals with. addressing himself now? Mr JACKSON: I am being restricted Mr JACKSON: I am addressing myself now-- to the adjournment of the House. Mr. SPEAKER: You are merely being Mr SPEAKER: Order! Which standing asked to obey the rules; that is all. Any order is the honourable member referring other comment from you will be offensive to? to the Chair. Standing Orders [30 Auo., 1973] Standing Orders 677 Mr JACKSON: I would not want to be Mr SPEAKER: Order! Does the motion or guilty of that. The amendment by my the amendment suggest anything like that? deputy leader merely asks the Minister to extend the reference to the Standing Orders Mr JACKSON: Yes. Standing Order 79 Committee to cover two important matters deals with questions without notice. It is -procedures concerning ministerial state­ i? simple language, and provides for ques­ ments and the provision of a grievance day. tions to be asked without notice. One of At the moment honourable members may the last questions asked in this House at raise matters of urgency affecting their con­ question time today is a classic example of stituents or their electorates on the motion what is happening at question time. Ques­ for the adjournment of the House, but the tions on notice are being asked. The hon­ limits placed on honourable members in this ourable member for Vaucluse asked an im· regard are absolutely laughable. As the portant .question-and I am not knocking Deputy Leader of the Opposition implied, It-but It was a question on notice, because if a great number of points of order are the Premier quoted from a prepared answer. taken during the debate on the adjournment That is an example of what is happening in an honourable member can be effectively this House at question time. Surely Minis­ prevented from raising urgent and vital mat­ ters are competent to answer questions on ters concerning his electorate. matters concerning their own administra­ tion; if they are not, they should not be The procedure adopted by the federal here. Time and time again we see Ministers Parliament for the adjournment debate reading written replies which are obviously should be followed in this House. I have answers to questions on notice and should spoken on this matter on previous occasions be treated as such. I urge the Government, and already explained that the Government the House and the Standing Orders Commit­ has the power to limit that debate. I tee to look at this problem and to lay down believe there should be no time limit on an explicit standing order to be observed at the debate on the motion for the adjourn­ question time. ment of the House. If honourable mem­ bers attempt to engage in a filibuster the The replies to many questions asked are Government, by weight of numbers, can read and the Ministers, having had notice of the questions, go on and on. This debars move the gag or that the member be no other honourable members from asking longer heard. The Government is the questions. It has reached the stage where a master of the situation. member of the Opposition averages about In this debate there should be provision one question every three weeks, and that is for any number of honourable members to not good enough. In the federal Parliament, where there are 125 members, an Opposi­ raise urgent 'matters affecting their con­ stituencies: they should have adequate time tion member would average at least one question every fortnight, or even better. In to do so. It is our duty to ensure that hon­ ourable members are given every oppor­ this House fewer and fewer questions are tunity to raise important and urgent matters being asked by virtue of the fact that many affecting their constituents. We are here questions, mainly from the Government side, properly to represent our constituents and are not questions without notice: they are the people of the State. Any restrictions questions on notice. They should be put on that are placed upon honourable members the Questions and Answers paper or the as legislators should be regarded seriously honourable member concerned should write and reviewed as a matter of urgency by the to the Minister and receive a written reply. Standing Orders Committee, which should The matters I have mentioned should give report back to this Parliament. All unneces­ every honourable member cause for con­ sary restrictions should be removed. Ques­ cern. In some of those matters strict appli­ tion time. has become a farce. Time and cation of the standing orders should be time again-- waived. The Standing Orders Committee 678 Standing Orders [ASSEMBLY] Standing Orders should look at the position regarding ques­ In those years members of the Opposition tions without notice and also supplemen­ were restricted in a manner that had never tary questions. In the federal Parliament been dreamed of in this Parliament either and in the House of Commons honourable before or since that time. Even in respect of members may ask two or three supplemen­ the sub judice rule there is greater latitude tary questions to an original question, so today than at any time I remember-and that a matter under discussion or something my memory goes back further than that of related to a Minister's administration of his the honourable member for Heathcote. If portfolio can be fully probed. The standing the Opposition feels itself restricted, God orders should be amended so that members help us if it were not. From the way hon­ have every opportunity properly to represent ourable members opposite, by smear and in­ their constituents and to bring before the nuendo, have abused in recent times the tre­ House and Ministers of this Parliament mat­ mendous privilege that we all have when ters needing urgent attention. At present speaking on the floor of the House, I shud­ honourable member have to go to the clerks der to think what they would do if no re­ for advice on ways and means of bringing strictions were placed on them. matters before the House under the standing If the honourable member for Heathcote orders as they exist today. There should be were supported in any way by his colleagues an extension of the time allowed for the in the things he has said I am sure that debate on the motion for the adjournment the matters he mentioned would have been of the House. Restrictions on urgency mo­ incorporated in the amendment moved by tions should be modified so that honourable the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. As members can bring urgent matters before they were not, I assume that he was speak­ the House in discharge of their duty to ing only for himself. The Deputy Leader of represent their constituents here. the Opposition made an appeal to me to overcome whatever effort it would involve, Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for with my steely obstinacy, to accept his Education '[12.23], in reply: I do not intend amendment. To indicate to him that I am to reply at length to the points raised. In anything but steely and obstinate, and that fact, I should have thought that the motion on the contrary I am the soul of compas­ sion, co-operation, flexibility and warm­ would have been purely formal and pro­ heartedness, let me assure him that, on be­ cedural and would have gone through with­ half of the Government, I readily accept out any debate. However, there are one or his amendment. I have not gone into the two things that I must say. The details of details of the amendment or examined the type of thing raised by the honourable whether or not those matters deserve con­ member for Parramatta by inference can be sideration by the Standing Orders Commit­ dealt with by the Standing Orders Commit­ tee, but if a distinguished member of that committee such as the honourable Deputy tee. That is the right place to go into any Leader of the Opposition feels that they detailed discussion on them. As to what the should be considered I am quite happy to honourable member for Heathcote has said, have them added to the list of items already he must have a short memory if he has been included in the motion. a member of this House for eighteen years As was my practice, I should have com­ and considers that honourable members are municated in my customary, courteous way now more restricted than ever before. He with my opposite number and told him of should have been on the Opposition benches the intention to put this matter on the in the early 'fifties when Opposition mem­ business paper, but he will well recall that bers were literally thrown out for saying a week ago I told him that all bets were one word or when they were prevented off-if I may use an Australian slang ex­ from moving motions and were gagged pression. I did away with courtesy and right, left and centre every time they co-operation because of the unseemly con­ attempted to raise anything in the House. duct of his leader on the floor of the House Standing Orders [30 AuG., 1973] Standing Orders 679 in telling me that I had broken my word. Mr JACKSON: On a point of order. May He looked up to the press gallery to make I refer you, Mr Speaker, to your direc­ sure they had heard him, and for good tion to me to keep solely to the motion measure he repeated it in a much louder and amendment before the House. They voice. The Leader of the Opposition said concern certain standing orders. For the I had broken my word, although he could past five minutes the Minister for Educa­ not know, as he was not privy to the dis­ tion has been detailing a private conversa­ cussions I had with the Deputy Leader of tion, or a conversation with the Deputy the Opposition. Therefore, it was merely Leader of the Opposition and telling us how innuendo and more of the smear tactics long the Premier and Treasurer spoke in that have become so much a part of the the Address-in-Reply debate. He has not Leader of the Opposition in recent times. referred to the standing orders at any stage I indicated that the previous courtesy that during that time. I had extended to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition in telling him what the Gov­ Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Minister for ernment's intentions were in relation to the Education has referred to all the things that business of the House would discontinue the Deputy Leader of the Opposition raised. until I had received an apology from the He is entitled to do that. And the honour­ Leader of the Opposition. able member for Heathcote complains about restrictions on debates. No point of order When I told the Deputy Leader of the is involved. Opposition that I estimated that the Address­ in-Reply debate would end on Thursday of Mr WILLIS: I was replying to a point last week he asked me would I be good raised by the Deputy Leader of the Opposi­ enough to let him know when I knew for tion that I had been discourteous in not sure. On the preceding day, the Wednes­ advising him of my intention to move this day, I informed him that it would end motion. I had explained that had the Leader the next day. He said to me, "Can you of the Opposition not said incorrect and tell me at what time?'' I replied that I deliberately misleading things about me and did not really know but that I should think about my motives, intentions and conduct, it would be about three o'clock because courtesy would still have been extended to the Government wanted to deal with some the Opposition. It will be renewed when first readings thereafter. On the following I get an apology from the Leader of the day when the Premier and Treasurer re­ Opposition, and not before. ceived the call in the debate at approxi­ I agree entirely with what the Deputy mately midday I anticipated that he would Leader of the Opposition said: this House speak until the luncheon adjournment and would continue after the resumption at functions only if members are co-operative. 2.30 p.m. In fact, the Premier and Trea­ I have tried to co-operate with my opposite surer spoke for only half an hour or so number on all occasions. I have tried to be and the debate terminated after the Pre­ courteous at all times, and I would expect similar courtesy and co-operation in return. mier and Treasurer had spoken, before However, if I am to be insulted, I will not the luncheon recess. It was at that stage that the Leader of the Opposition said that be co-operative. I had broken my undertaking. That was The only other thing I want to say is that the word he used. He said that I had I regret that the Deputy Leader of the indicated that the debate would proceed Opposition found it necessary to suggest until at least three o'clock. I did not ever by innuendo that he was drowntrodden, out­ raise the exact time in my discussion with voted and outnumbered on the Standing the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I did Orders Committee. I do not know what not state that it would finish at three o'clock: sort of a story he took back to the Labor I said that I estimated it would end about Party caucus, but a few minutes ago the three o'clock. honourable gentleman said, "We", meaning 680 Standing Orders [ASSEMBLY] Veterinary Surgeons

the Opposition, "are outnumbered and out­ Last night during the second-reading debate, voted continuously on the committee". My in reply to a question by the honourable clear recollection is that a vote was never member for Broken Hill I gave an answer taken in the last series of meetings of the that I believed at the time to be correct but Standini Orders Committee. subsequently found to be incorrect. The honourable member for Broken Hill said Mr EINFELD: How many times have I that he wished to refer to the provision in said that the Government has the numbers the bill that relates to the volume of mineral on the committee and will do what it wants spirit that may be kept on residential prem­ to do? ises. He then asked me whether the new limit of 25 litres would apply to the storage Mr WILLIS: I repeat that on no occasion of oil in tanks for heating residential prem­ was a vote taken, and therefore on no occa­ ises. Owing to a misunderstanding of the sion were Opposition members of the com­ question, I was advised, and I informed the mittee outvoted. That was a completely honourable member for Broken Hill, that misleading statement, and it called for a that matter came under the Liquefied Pet­ reply from me. roleum Gas Act, and that new regulations Mr EINFELD: It is the Minister's state­ covering it would be introduced in the near ment that is misleading. future. I now wish to correct that state­ ment by saying that the storage of oil in Mr SPEAKER: Order! tanks for heating residential premises- does not come within the ambit of either the Mr WILLIS: It was completely mislead­ Inflammable Liquid Act or the Liquefied ing to say that there had been party divi­ Petroleum Gas Act. The proposed amend­ sions in the Standing Orders Committee. ments of section 11 of the Inflammable Most of the discussions that have taken Liquid Act concern only mineral spirit as place at meetings of that committee while defined in the Act and do not in any way I have been a member of it have been relate to oil used for heating residential harmonious. There has been a spirit of premises. give and take and a determination on the part of members from all parties to ensure Motion agreed to. that Parliament is made a workable place. Bill read a third time. Therefore, it is quite wrong to create an impression in this House that as a result of VETERINARY SURGEONS party divisions at meetings of the Standing (AMENDMENT) BILL Orders Committee the Government has INTRODUCTION ruthlessly rammed its views down the Mr CRAWFORD (Barwon), Minister for throats of Opposition members of the com­ Agriculture [12.35]: I move: mittee. On the contrary, I hope that in its That leave be given to bring in a bill to make ddiberations the committee, as it has done further provisions with respect to the appoint­ in the past, will continue to co-operate for ment of members of the Board of Veterinary Surgeons of New South Wales; to provide for the better operation of Parliament. the licensing and control of veterinary hospitals; for these and other purposes to amend the Amendment agreed to. Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1923; and for pur­ Motion as amended agreed to. poses connected therewith. The bill for which leave to introduce is INFLAMMABLE LIQUID sought will have a number of objects. The (AMENDMENT) BILL first will be to reconstitute the Veterinary THIRD READING Surgeons Board of New South Wales to Mr FIFE (Wagga Wagga), Minister for provide for the appointment to the board Mines, Minister for Power and Assistant' of persons nominated by the New South Treasurer '[12.33]: I move: Wale~ division of the Australian Veterinary That this bill be now read a third time. Association. The second will be to provide Veterinary Surgeons [30 AUG., 1973] (Amendment) Bill 681 for the prescribing of acts, matters or things disciplinary tribunal. It will make other that form part of the practice of veterinary provisions of a minor, consequential or science. A third object of the bill is to permit ancillary nature. an inspector appointed under the Veterin­ For the information of honourable mem­ ary Surgeons Act, 1923, to enter premises bers, I point out that the provisions of the at any reasonable time and make inquiries principal Act are substantially similar to therein. those contained in the Act initially passed Further, it is proposed to require persons by Parliament in 1923. It became increas­ holding prescribed offices or positions to be ingly obvious that the Act required a com­ veterinary surgeons and to provide that cer­ prehensive revision having regard to changed tain employees of a stockowner may carry circumstances. The bill now proposed wiU out as part of their employment certain effect this revision. acts, matters or things that form part of the practice of veterinary science. The bill Many of the new proposals contained in will clarify the law relating to acts, matters the proposed bill were submitted by the and things forming part of the practice of Australian Veterinary Association and also veterinary science that may for fee or re­ by the Veterinary Surgeons Board. I shall, ward be carried out by persons other than however, explain the measure more fully veterinary surgeons. at the second-reading stage. I commend the motion to honourable members. Other objects of the proposed bill are to impose a penalty of $200 upon any person Mr GORDON (Murrumbidgee) [12.38]: who, where no other penalty is provided, The Opposition looks forward with interest commits a breach of the Veterinary Sur­ to the presentation of the bill. I take this geons Act, 1923; to prescribe the qualifica­ opportunity to say that in the electorate of tions required for registration as a veterin­ ary surgeon and to save the registration of Murrumbidgee there is a problem not with persons currently registered who do not have the registration but with the shortage of the new qualifications; and to provide for veterinary surgeons. Veterinarians are em­ the provisional registration of persons pend­ ployed by the pastures protection boards, ing receipt of documentary evidence of but generally speaking the services of those their academic qualification. officers are not available to individual farm­ The legislation will provide also for the ers. They are concerned more with epid­ establishment and licensing of veterinary emics, and the like, involving large numbers hospitals of various classes and for the con­ trol of veterinary hospitals, including the of sheep or cattle. appointment of a superintendent for each Although there is a tremendous amount veterinary hospital; the sHspension or can­ of stock in the Murrumbidgee area, it is only cellation of a licence in certain circum­ in recent years that the services of a private stances; the right of appeal to the District veterinary surgeon became available. He Court against certain cancellations or has to travel great distances, going from suspensions; and the power to prescribe by regulation standards to be observed in the property to property, and in an attempt to construction, equipping, conduct and ap­ reduce the amount of time that he spent pointment of staff of different classes of vet­ on the road, he established a veterinary hos­ erinary hospitals. pital. I trust that the regulations made In addition the bill will provide for the under any legislation introduced to deal with constitution of an investigating committee veterinary surgeons will not be so stringent and a disciplinary tribunal to deal with com­ or will not be administered in such a way plaints against veterinary surgeons along that the veterinary surgeon to whom I refer lines similar to those relating to . medical will be compelled to move to another State. practitioners and to provid~ for. an appeal If that happened the district would suffer a to the Supreme Court against an order of the great loss. 682 Veterinary Surgeons Bill [ASSEMBLY] Oil Pollution Bill I make only this passing reference. The Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) improvement of standards at meatworks [12.44]: One could not help feeling sorry will mean some meatworks in the Murrum­ for the Minister for Youth and Community bidgee area will close and meat will be im­ Services as he delivered the Premier's ported into the area from Victoria. Simi­ second-reading speech in a dreary and larly, if the Government insists upon too droning monologue, his left hand supporting high a standard for veterinary hospitals, the his aching sacro-iliac. I suppose that he was veterinarian could say: "Don't bring your paying the penalty for his strenuous efforts animals to my hospital. I cannot meet the that earned him the title of father of the requirements and the place has been con­ year. Had he taken the trouble to read the demned. I shall close the hospital. Goodbye, bill and tried to understand what was in the I am off to Victoria." The Opposition will speech he would have realized that this be interested in the provisions of the bill but measure is a most exciting and progressive is anxious that the veterinary services we piece of legislation which should be received have at the moment are retained and enthusiastically by the House. No credit is maintained. due to the Government for the provisions of the bill, which were conceived and drafted Mr MASON (Dubbo) {12.41]: Like all in international and federal forums. other honourable members I shall await with interest the provisions of the bill. I know Mr WADDY: Rubbish. that many veterinary surgeons in this State, especially those in the area I represent, have Mr F. J. WALKER: The Minister says been most anxious that they be allowed to rubbish, but he should have digested his use the honorary title of doctor. One of the own speech. When a Minister reads a things at which I shall be looking with a speech at least he should try to understand good deal of interest is to see what action what he says and there is something to be said for those Ministers who do that. The is proposed along these lines. In many parts Government is to be thanked for at least of the world and indeed in some States of introducing this measure. It is out of char­ the Commonwealth, such as Victoria and acter for the Government to introduce pro­ South Australia, veterinary surgeons may gressive legislation; many progressive use the honorary title. These men are highly measures, decided in other forums, which skilled and undertake a long period of study should have been introduced have not been introduced here. I note that the Minister before gaining their qualifications. As in the delivered the sepech on behalf of the Pre­ human medical field, the title of doctor is mier and Treasurer, who is responsible for purely an honorary one, recognizing the the Maritime Services Board, which adminis­ qualifications of practitioners who play a ters the principal Act. It is proper that I distinctive role in the community. I shall should comment that this state of affairs­ await the bill with much interest to learn the administration of the Maritime Services what has been done about granting this :Board by the Premier-will change immedi­ ately the Opposition comes to government honorary title. later this year. The present disjointed, un­ Motion agreed to. co-ordinated system of environment control Bill presented and read a first time. and protection, with Ministers competing jealously against one another for power in PREVENTION OF OIL POLLUTION OF the various areas of control and protection, NAVIGABLE WATERS (AMENDMENT) cannot be in the interests of the people of BILL New South Wales. The Labor Party pro­ SECOND READING poses to do something about it. The most Debate resumed (from 29th August, vide obvious and proper thing to do is to give page 658) on motion by Mr Waddy, on the Minister for Environment some real behalf of Sir Robert Askin: power, instead of having a dummy like the That this bill be now read a second time. present Minister. Prevention of Oil [30 AuG., 1973] Pollution Bill 683 Mr VINEY: On a point of order. I sug­ Mr AcTING-SPEAKER: Order! If the hon­ gest that it is most unparliamentary to refer ourable member for Burwood takes excep­ to a Minister as a dummy. tion to that remark, perhaps the honourable member for Georges River will apologize. Mr AcTING-SPEAKER ( Mr DUNCAN) : Order! Unless the Minister objects I cannot Mr F. J. WALKER: Of course I shall ask the honourable member to withdraw. withdraw and apologize. Though I agree The honourable member may continue but that substantial increases in penalties are I ask the House to give him the respect appropriate and overdue in this field, I am he deserves and hear him in silence. convinced that a purely penal approach to the enforcement of environment laws will Mr F. J. WALKER: I was not being not succeed by itself. Pecuniary penalties disrespectful to the Minister when I referred imposed after damage bas been done are to him as a dummy. I was referring only generally cumbersome and even the deter­ to the position in which he finds himself. rent effect of heavy fines· is over-rated. Most Labor intends to give the administration offenders, as the criminal law has shown of this Act to the Minister for Environ­ over the centuries, do not intend or expect ment and the officers of the Maritime Ser­ to be caught. For those reasons problems vices Board will not have to worry about exist even when huge fines are imposed. it except for those experts who will have The answer to the problem lies in planning. to transfer to a different department. I have This is not the time to go at great length only one general point to make about the into the details of how one could plan ports provisions of the bill. and the coastline so that only minimum damage from pollution occurs. The hon­ Mr VINEY: On a point of order. The ourable member for Maroubra pointed out House is discussing an amendment of the that prevention is better than cure but gov­ principal Act. The honourable member for ernment supporters greeted that with de­ Georges River is discussing who is to admin­ rision. What the honourable member for ister the principal Act. Is he talking of putting the administration of the amending Maroubra said is recognized by experts and legislation in the control of the Minister for only those who do not know what they are Environment and leaving the principal talking about, such as the honourable mem­ Act under the administration of the ber for Vaucluse, would venture to suggest Premier? that prevention is not better than cure in Mr AcTING-SPEAKER: Order! I must this field. admit that the honourable member has not I am not criticizing the bill, for I favour referred to the bill. If I remember correctly, it and enthusiastically agree to its introduc­ be said that he was about to make one tion. However, I feel impelled to sound a principal point on the bill and I ask him few discordant notes. I shall not go through to do that. all the bill's good points, which were ade­ quately set out in the Minister's speech, Mr F. J. WALKER: Thank you, Mr though he did not understand it. I must Acting-Speaker. As I was saying before I sound a few discordant notes as spokesman was rudely interrupted, there is only one for the Opposition on the environment­ comment I want to make on the general though the main point I wish to raise is principles of the bill. more a legal matter, and I have some quali­ Mr JACKETT: On a point of order. Every fications in that field also. member of the House is entitled to take a Mr MASON: What about rural economics? point of order and it is unparliamentary for the honourable member who was on Mr F. J. WALKER: I am also an expert his feet to describe a point of order as a in rural economics. The first thing about the rude interruption. bill that made me raise my eyebrows was 684 Prevention of Oil [ASSEMBLY] Pollution Bill the amendment to section 4 ( 1) which deals that, if that was the British law, it must with the definition of the jurisdiction. This have been the law that applied in the Aus­ amendment reads: tralian Constitution Act, and that must have by omitting from the definition of "The juris­ been the boundary of the States. diction" in section 4 (1) the words "the territorial limits" and by inserting instead Subsequently there were negotiations by the words "one nautical league of the the federal Government in international coast"; forums, namely, the United Nations and its (v) committees. In 1953 there was the United This means in constitutional verbiage that Nations convention on the high seas and in the State of New South Wales is endeavour­ 1954 the convention relating to oil pollu­ ing to extend its territorial jurisdiction from tion. These conventions agreed that States, what has traditionally been regarded as the in the sense of nations, should be allowed to mean high-water mark to one nautical extend their territorial limits to twelve miles league off the coast. The Minister's speech off the coast. The point is that in Australia indicated that this is being done with the only the federal Government could be party consent of the Commonwealth, which gave to such an agreement; under international its concurrence at a meeting in September law, any State such as New South Wales last year. I accept that concurrence was cannot be a party to an international agree­ given, but I make the point that it was given ment. Therefore, in Australia it is only the when a different federal government was in Commonwealth that can extend territorial office in Canberra. The present federal Gov­ waters. ernment has a very different attitude to the Because of the constitutional restrictions question of who should control the terri­ and the need for a referendum to extend torial waters of this country. boundaries, there is a strong legal argument Mr JACKETT: That does not mean it is in support of the proposition that the eastern right. boundary of New South Wales must end at the mean high-water mark. All this is so Mr F. J. WALKER: I made the point much academic guff if the Commonwealth that concurrence to this form of jurisdic­ agrees to the provision in the bill that the tion was given by a government that has a jurisdiction extend one nautical league very different point of view from the one off the coast. However, only two days ago that now rules in Canberra. The law re­ the Prime Minister said that the Common­ garding the boundaries of States is most wealth intended to pass a new navigation bill complex and difficult for a layman to under­ relating to oil pollution off the coast. He stand. The most powerful argument-and said that the Commonwealth intended to indeed the only argument that is supported legislate to prevent oil pollution of off-shore by the meagre case law in this field: one waters. As it is the stated intention of the High Court decision on fishing boats and Commonwealth to have control of the con­ another decision by Mr Justice Philp in the tinental shelf, I think it is fair for me to Supreme Court of Queensland-is that the question whether the Commonwealth is precedents suggest that the boundaries of likely to claim the same jurisdiction as this the State were fixed by the Australian Con­ State is claiming by this bill. stitution Act of 1901. Any amateur parlia­ I do not deny that the State of New South mentarian knows that this is so; indeed, it is Wales has power to pass extra-territorial trite to say so. The only way that these legislation. It is understood that the States boundaries can be changed is by referen­ have that power, but I also know that sec­ dum. tion 109 of the Commonwealth Constitu­ In 1901 the law that applied to the boun­ tion provides that if there is conflict between daries of colonies was British law-not State and federal laws, federal laws shall Australian law. According to British law prevail. Therefore if both New South Wales in 190 1 , the boundary of the State was the and the Commonwealth pass laws claiming mean high-water mark. It logically follows jurisdiction over waters up to one league Oil Pollution Bill [30 AuG., 1973] Address in Reply 685 off the coast, the law that we are being Mr E J. WALKER: I do not blame a asked to pass today will be constitutionally man who has an interest in a particular invalid, and on my interpretation the field showing some enthusiasm about a mat­ chances are that the whole Act will become ter connected with it. I brought up this invalid. At the very best, those parts of matter because both the Minister and the the Act relating to jurisdiction and to tank­ honourable member for Vaucluse supported ers, which in my opinion are the most valu­ out of hand the concept of vicarious or able parts of it, will be invalid. For that enterprise liability. Proposed new subsec­ reason, I am sounding this discordant note. tion (2A) of section 7 (2) negates that I hope that this State and the Common­ very principle. When one reads it one dis­ wealth will be able to negotiate on the pro­ covers that where the occupier of a pipe­ visions of the new Commonwealth Naviga­ line is charged with an offence he has a tion Act (No. 2), and I trust that such a constitutional problem will not arise. How­ defence and therefore he has no strict ever, members may be sure that the first liability at all. He may say it was not time the owners of a tanker are asked to knowingly or negligently caused. pay $12.6 million, they will take a constitu­ Debate adjourned on motion by Mr F. J. tional point. In the event of a pollution Walker. catastrophe such as that caused by the Torrey Canyon, the State may be powerless [Mr Acting-Speaker (Mr Duncan) left the to get compensation. I raise this aspect in all chair at 1.2 p.m. The House resumed at 2.40 sincerity: perhaps it is one that should be p.m.] considered next week at the Commonwealth Constitutional Convention. A proposed new subsection of section 7 reads: GOVERNOR'S SPEECH: PRESENTATION (2A) Where the occupier of a pipeline is OF ADDRESS IN REPLY charged with an offence under section 6 it shall Mr SPEAKER: Order! The House will be a defence to prove that the discharge of oil or mixture containing oil was not caused know­ now proceed to Government House, there ingly, wilfully or negligently. to present to the Governor the Address in The Minister in his speech kept referring Reply to His Excellency's Opening Speech, to the concept of enterprise liability. I could which was adopted on Thursday, 23rd not help wondering whether the writer of the August, 1973. speech had misread a shorthand outline; I The House accordingly proceeded to know of no such concept as enterprise lia­ Government House. bility. In our law the word is vicarious, meaning absolute or strict, liability. Both The House having returned, the Minister and the honourable member Mr SPEAKER reported that the Address in for Vaucluse went into raptures about this Reply to the Governor's Opening Speech provision: they said what a wonderful thing had been presented, and that His Excellency it was. I do not know why the Minister did, had been pleased to give thereto the follow­ but the honourable member for Vaucluse ing answer: apparently realizes that important insur­ Government House, Sydney, ance considerations arise out of strict lia­ 30th August, 1973. bility. Perhaps that was the reason for his Mr Speaker and Gentlemen, apparent enthusiasm. Thank you for your Address. It gives me much pleasure to receive your expressions of Mr DoYLE: I have. no pecuniary interest. unfeigned attachment to the Throne and Person of Her Most Gracious Majesty The Queen. Mr F. J. WALKER: If you have no I am also glad to have your assurance that earnest consideration will be given to the mea­ pecuniary interest-- sures to be submitted to you and that the ~eces­ sary provision for the Public Services will be Mr WADoY: .You are a petty smearer. made in due course. 686 Address in Reply [ASSEMBLY] Adjournment I have every confidence that, under Divine order to deliver an attack on the depart­ Providence, your earnest labours will conduce ment. That would be the last thing I to the general welfare and happiness of the people of this State. would do; indeed, I am sure no member of this Chamber would want to do that. A. R. CUTLER, Governor. The tremendous service of this department The Honourable the Speaker and Members of and its officers is acknowledged and wel­ the Legislative Assembly of New South comed, and it deserves great praise. I ex­ Wales. tend that remark to the Minister as well. I am raising this matter because I think it calls for the special flexibility that the department claims it is always willing to exercise when it is warranted. Most hon­ PRINTING COMMITTEE ourable members know of borderline cases SECOND REPORT where this flexibility has been exercised. I Mr BREWER, as Chairman, brought up do not claim I have a borderline case, and the Second Report from the Printing Com­ if I were so to describe it, I am sure that mittee. the mothers involved would not welcome it. I am putting it forward as a special ex­ ADJOURNMENT ample of a situation where the department's flexibility is called for. CHILD-CARE CENTRE, CHATSWOOD Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for My submission relates to a child-care Education [4.15]: I move: centre in West Chatswood that provides a service for my constituents and for people That this House do now adjourn. in suburbs nearby. I am sure that the lady in Mr COLEMAN (Fuller) [4.14]: I invite charge of the centre would not like her name as a matter of urgency the attention of the to be bandied about or for this matter to be House to a crisis that has arisen affecting a dealt with like a political football. I prefer number of mothers in my constituency not to mention her name. This child-care and in nearby electorates. I refer to advice centre is situated in James Street, Chats­ that has been received from the Depart­ wood and usually caters for about ten small ment of Child Welfare and Social Welfare children. Recently an officer of the De­ that, unless certain conditions are met, a partment of Child Welfare and Social Wel­ child-minding centre serving my electorate fare called there on a matter not related will have to close forthwith, or quite soon. to the running of the centre. The officer This is a familiar story. I am sure that most was checking on one of her charges who honourable members have had experience had been neglected elsewhere. The details of a problem arising when a child-care of that aspect are irrelevant. Having called centre has not met the strict and, for the there, the officer observed that more than most part, commendable requirements of the statutory two children were being cared the department, which has always been able for and therefore the lady in charge needed a licence from the department. She acknow­ to present a strong case to support its stand. ledged that she did not have one. There Certainly historically-if not, always now can be no possible suggestion that this child­ -the conditions that the Department of care centre is in business to exploit for Child Welfare and Social Welfare has im­ financial gain. The fee--which is a ques­ posed on child-care centres have been in the tion that will be inevitably raised-is a interests of the children who attend them. maximum of $15 a week and, for several Some quite terrible places going under the of the children, nothing. name of child-care centres have been closed The lady who runs this centre-even to down as a result of the vigilance of the de­ call it a centre suggests something formal partment. I realize there have been contro­ and more businesslike than it really is,-is versial cases. I am not raising this matter in the sort of person who could be described Adjournment [30 Auo., 1973] Adjournment 687 simply as a loving woman who enjoys look­ Mr MULOCK: What is the gross income ing after small children and babies under of this centre? 2 years old; she does the work for the love of it. This lady looks after ten children at Mr COLEMAN: The gross income the most. These children need the sort of would be negligible because, as I have said, assistance that she gives. I do not think it the lady cares for several of these children could be challenged by anybody, including without charge. The maxirimm charge in officers of the department, that she looks respect of any one child is $15 a week. With after some of these children without pay­ her husband's income and their ordinary ment. This lady looks after the children of family circumstances she is able to continue unmarried mothers, divorced women, maintaining this home. Some children are widows and women who are separated from cared for at these premises after their their husbands. In one case that I know of mothers have tried other places that suit she looks after the child of a mother who the requirements of the Department of received medical advice that she should re­ Child Welfare. The child may have been sume her career and that she was tempera­ unh~ppy elsewhere and has not developed, mentally, physiologically and in every other so 1t has been transferred to this lady's way unsuited to be looking after her child centre where its health and happiness have continuously. improved. This lady cares for these children in a In other words, the centre is ideal in large home-a home in the true sense of every way, except that it does not meet the the word. She owns the premises and runs strict requirements of the department. It suits this centre-if one can call it that-as a single mothers, divorced women, widows genuine symbol of love and security and and women separated from their husbands. continuity for the small children and babies If it is closed down-which is a reasonable who are brought there. She is an authentic possibility unless certain conditions are met mother substitute for the children. The -these mothers will be oppressed. They will have to go elsewhere with all the dwelling is of a good size and attractive, attendant problems: this is the only centre with an enclosed back garden where the in the area. Alternatively, they will be faced children can play in safety. On their arrival with the unreal prospect of giving up their each morning they are given a cooked jobs on which they depend. breakfast, and they are also provided with The problem is an extremely difficult one a cooked lunch. The children are given and the unchallengeable fact, as I said be­ plenty of fruit and fruit drinks during the fore, is that the lady who runs this centre day. They have a nap at different times -and I do not think any welfare officer throughout the day, for which cots are pro­ would deny it-is the authentic type who should be running such a place. She is a vided. I mention these things because they loving woman who is good to the children are obviously what people would want to of these women. I ask that the Minister know. reconsider the case and give it his sympa­ Mr HEALEY: Are most of these children thetic consideration. I know that he is gen­ still at the nappy stage? erally aware of the problem and is sympa­ Mr COLEMAN: Yes. Some mothers thetic to the case. I ask that it be regarded have tried other centres but because of non­ as a suitable case for the exercise of the financial reasons they have transferred their well-known flexibility of the Minister and children to this lady's care; they have been his department. dissatisfied with some licensed centres. Mr WADDY (Kirribilli), Minister for Some centres that meet all the conditions Youth and Community Services [4.26]: laid down by the department and have ex­ This is not a very unusual case. It is the cellent conditions that suit most mothers do sort that arouses emotional feelings in not suit all cases. people, but honourable members have to 688 Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Printed Questions and Answers get the story straight. I have no criticism must be obtained. If the honourable mem­ of the lady who runs this place for her ber for Fuller can prevail on his constituent methods or for any other reason: letters to meet those requirements it would help have been received indicating that she does a great deal. If an application is submitted a very good job. The fact is that there it will be dealt with by the department. is no licence for these premises. The lady has never applied for one. Although she has Mr CAHILL: Will the Minister advise been invited to apply for a licence so far the members of this House of the result of the application? none has been received. Requirements for the licensing of child-care centres have been Mr WADDY: I do not think that is imposed by the Parliament and they were necessary. It is a matter between a person the minimum requirements considered suit­ who makes the application and the depart­ able. They were set out after long dis­ ment. cussions with the Sydney Day Nursery people and with the representatives of the Mr CAHILL: I do not suggest that the Kindergarten Union, who would probably name of the applicant should be men­ be regarded as· the experts in this field in tioned, but the result of the application Sydney. In addition, investigations were could be indicated. made overseas and in all other States of Mr WADDY: If the honourable member Australia. for Cooks River sees me privately I will It has been admitted that ten children inform him of the result, if he is interested. attend this centre and in the interests of Mr CAHILL: I would appreciate that. those children I thought I should mention the requirement for licensing these centres. Mr WADDY: I assure the honourable The department has a certain amount of member for Fuller that if an application flexibility which it has exercised on many is made by his constituent, accompanied by occasions, particularly in circumstances re­ an approval from the local council to run lating to child-care centres where problems this child-care centre in that area, it will are encountered. However, before the de­ be given careful, serious and sympathetic partment can reconsider a matter it must consideration. have something to consider-it must have an Motion agreed to. application. It would be a good idea, also, if the lady had approval from her local House adjourned at 4.30 p.m. council to run this centre. That aspect i& entirely out of my hands: I cannot obtain that approval and I cannot give my appro­ val if the local council does not approve. One of the reasons why these places are required to be licensed is that, irrespective PRINTE'D QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS of the ages of the children-whether they The following questions upon notice and be 2, 3, 4 or 5 years old-there must be a answers were distributed. programme. I do not criticize the service given by this lady. Indeed, by all accounts POLICE COMPUTER she is of a loving nature and renders con­ siderable help. If the department is given Mr MALLAM asked the PREMIER AND the opportunity to consider something I TREASURER-( 1) What was the nature of assure the honourable member for Fuller, the computer research recently carried out the lady concerned and the mothers of the in Number 10 Police Division? (2) What were the results of this research? (3) Why children there, that we will give it sympa­ was it stopped? thetic consideration. The application will Answer-(1) The research in question be looked at and discretion will be exer­ involved an intensification as from 1st July, cised if it is possible to do so. An applica­ 1971, of policing by plainclothes police of tion must be made and council approval various areas within Number 10 Division MrWaddy] Printed Questions and Answers [30 At1G., 1973] Printed Questions and Answers 689 which the computer had indicated were most the summary represent all the offences re­ prone to activities by criminals. The plain­ ported to the Crime Intelligence and Infor­ clothes staff of the division was doubled mation System and recorded in print-out temporarily by utilizing the services of by the computer for the year 1971. police provided on loan from other police (2) The particulars of crime included in stations. the 1972 annual report were presented on a (2) While it was apparent that the en­ similar basis. larged plainclothes staff enabled public re­ quests for attention to be more promptly STATE SUPERANNUATION BOARD complied with, there was no significant im­ INVESTMENTS provement in the arrest rate as regards per­ Mr MALLAM asked the PREMIER AND sons committing the offences of breaking, entering and stealing, stealing in a dwelling, TREASURER-For each year since 1st July, and allied offences. 1965-( 1) How much did the State Super­ annuation Board invest in-(a) finance ( 3) The project continued for twelve companies; (b) development companies; months and was terminated because it had (c) Commonwealth institutions; (d) State met with insufficient success to justify its institutions; and (e) other companies and continuance. In addition, the temporary institutions? (2) What losses were incurred doubling of the plainclothes staff of the divi­ through liquidation of companies in cate­ sion had an adverse effect on the policing of gories (a), (b) and (e)? other patrols and in June, 1972, alternative Answer-( 1 ) The amounts invested m arrangements were made for the introduc­ the respective categories mentioned are as tion of a substantially improved night set out in the accompanying schedule. system of wireless-equipped motor vehicles (2) The board has not sustained any throughout the whole metropolitan area, not losses through liquidation of companies in merely Number 10 Division, necessitating categories (a), (b) and (e), due to invest­ each division being maintained at maximum ruents made since 1st July, 1965, although po~sible strength. · the board's records show that there was a write-off in 1965-66 of certain amounts which were attributable to earlier invest­ POLICE COMPUTER ments. Thus, in that financial year an Mr MALLAM asked the PREMIER AND amount of $646,404 was written off as a TREASURER-( 1) Were the complete com­ result of a debenture investment in Stanhill puter print-out figures on crime included in Consolidated Limited which was made be­ the report of the Police Department for tween December, 1960, and March, 1961, 1971? (2) Were the complete computer and of the amount written off, $146,404 figures for 1972 included in the report of represented interest previously brought to the Police Department for 1972? account. Answer-( 1) Appendix "D" to the an­ In the same period, an amount of nual report of the Police Department for $116,707 was written off against the board's 1971 summarizes the particulars of crimes funds for the purpose of bringing to account and certain lesser offences which were re­ losses sustained in the liquidation of A. J. ported to the Crime Intelligence and Infor­ Benjamin Limited and Cox Bros (Aust.) mation System and recorded on computer. Limited. The investments in these instances The form of the summary, including the related to shares which were purchased in types of lesser offences to be included, was the case of the former company between decided upon by the Police Department in September, 1960, and January, 1961, and in consultation with the Bureau of Crime the case of the latter company preference Statistics and Research. In respect of the shares which had been purchased between categories showE, the figures contained in, February, ~~~9, and December, 1950. 44 690 Printed Questions and Answers [ASSEMBLY] Printed Questions and Answers

State Superannuation Board-Schedule of Funds Invested for each year from 1st July, 1965, to 30th June, 1972.

(c) (e) (a) (b) (d) Other Aggregate Year. Finance Development Common- State Companies Companies. Companies. wealth Institutions. and Invested. - Institutions. Institutions. $ $ $ $ $ $ 1965/66 1,204,776 741,000 .... 21,499,434 20,677,881 44,123,091 1966/67 732,434 2,009,000 .... 26,320,693 19,153,305 48,215,432 1967/68 2,795,518 3,058,345 1,800,000 24,391,440 26,150,922 58,196,225 1968/69 3,799,556 6,453,000 1,000,000 25,068,882 33,182,921 69,504,359 1969/70 8,579,600 13,041,723 .... 19,373,322 24,593,433 65,588,078

1970/71 4,356,421 17,087,646 • 0 •• 33,482,111 17,777,014 72,703,192 1971/72 12,741,467 21,909,000 5,000,000 28,717,655 20,203,401 88,571,523 34,209,772 64,299,714 7,800,000 178,853,537 161,738,877 446,901,900

CRUELTY TO CHILDREN how many of these cases was the child Mr MALLAM asked the MINISTER FOR adopted or in a foster home? YoUTH AND COMMUNITY SERVICEs-For Answer-Statistics on the physical ill­ treatment of children have been kept in my each year since 1st January, 1965-(a) department's research section since Febru­ How many cases of child beating or other ary, 1968, only. No statistics are available forms of cruelty to children have been re­ in respect of the years 1965 to 1967 inclu­ ported to his department? (b) What were sive. Data on cases known to the depart­ the ages of the children involved? (c) In ment are as follows:

(a) 1968: 16 children. 1969: 19 children. 1970: 20 children. 1971: 24 children. 1972: 43 children.

Under 8 years (b) 1 year 1-3 years 4-7 years and over 1968 5 5 3 3 1969 4 9 2 4 1970 5 7 s 3 1971 4 17 3 1972 10 14 13 6

Children in Foster (c) Adopted Children Care 1968 1 1969 2 2 1970 1 1971 2 1972 1 Printed Questions and Answers [30 Auo., 1973] Printed Questions and Answers 691

POISONING FROM AERIAL SPRAYlNG­ Answer-( 1) Since my appointment as NAMO! VALLEY Chief Secretary in June, 1972, I have not Mr F. J. WALKER asked the MINISTER made any overseas trips. FOR HEAL TH-(1 ) Did his department re­ (2) (3) (4) Not applicable. cently carry out a survey in the cotton fields of the Namoi Valley after receiving reports of the poisoning of workers after indiscrimi­ TRANSCRIPTS OF COURT PROCEEDINGS nate and unrestricted use of pesticides in Mr PETERSEN asked the ATTORNEY­ crop spraying? (2) If so, what were the GENERAL-( 1 ) In what circumstances major findings of that survey? can litigants in New South Wales obtain a Answer-(l) The Health Commission of free copy of the depositions or transcrips of New South Wales through the Division of the hearing in which they are involved? (2) Occupational Health and Pollution Control Will he give consideration to extending this carried out surveys in this area both prior to right to defendants in all criminal cases? and after receiving reports of workers being ( 3) Will he consider extending to litigants poisoned following indiscriminate use of the right to a free copy of the judgment? pesticides. Answer-(!) All persons committed for (2) A total of 21 workers were hospital­ trial receive, without cost, a copy of the de­ ized either as a result of the surveys or due positions or a transcript of those proceed­ to the action of the local medical practi­ ings. Under a liberal legal aid scheme, tioner. Tests for blood cholinesterase levels accused persons for whom the Public De­ of workers associated with aerial spraying fender appears are not called upon to pay were conducted by the Division of Occupa­ any out-of-pocket expenses, including the tional Health and Pollution Control in De­ cost of any transcripts sought by counsel. cember, 1972, and January, February and In all other instances persons involved in March, 1973, and similar tests were con­ civil or criminal proceedings may obtain a ducted as a free service by Narrabri Hospital copy of any relevant depositions or trans­ making a total of 129 tests. cripts at a cost of 10 cents a folio of 72 The results of the tests indicated that 15 words. This rate, today, is quite inadequate out of 33 markers, 17 out of 19 miXers and to cover the costs of supply. loaders, 5 out of 8 loader-drivers, 10 out of (2) and (3) The general question of eas­ 13 pilots, 9 out of 46 other workers, and 0 ing the cost of litigation in all its aspects is out of 10 entomological evaluators ("bug under continual review, and the possibility checkers") were affected over the season of increasing the already substantial sub­ and were removed from exposure to organic phosphate or carbamate pesticides at some sidising of the costs of transcripts is gov­ stage during the season. erned solely by the availability of funds.

OVERSEAS VISITS BY CHIEF TREATMENT OF SEX OFFENDERS WITH SECRETARY AND MINISTER FOR DRUGS SPORT Mr PETERSEN asked the MINISTER FOR Mr MALLAM asked the CmEF SECRE­ YOUTH AND COMMUNITY SERVICEs-( l} TARY AND MINISTER FOR SPORT-For the period 12 May, 1965, to 12 February, In what circumstances do officers of his 1971-(1) How many overseas trips were department inject promiscuous girls and made by the Minister and also by his pre­ male sex offenders with the drug depo pro­ decessor? (2) On each occasion, what num­ vera, as practised by Dr Lionel Chatz, direc­ ber of staff and other persons accompanied tor of the Melbourne Children's Court the Minister? ( 3) What was the total cost Clinic? (2) Are any similar drugs given to of the trip? ( 4) What was the total amount sex offenders to control their sexual urges? of expenses paid (i) to the Minister; and (ii) to staff and other persons? Answer-(1) Never. (2) No. Constitution Convention [ASSEMBLY] . Ques1ions without Notice

to the various staffs of the House. Al­ lfi.egisla:ti'u.e J\ss.emhlg though theirs was no easy task when coping Tuesday, 11 September, 1973 with the severe demands upon them, visiting members and delegates from all over Aus­ tralia were high in their praise of the splen­ Australlan Constitutional Convention-Children with did services and the assistance rendered. Specific Learning Difficulties; Calwalla Level Crossing (Petitions)---Questions without Notice­ Price Control (Urgency)-General Business (Hou"" ing and Land Prices)-Pay-roll Tax (Amendment) CHILDREN WITH SPECIFIC LEARNING Bill (Int.)-'-Totalizator (Off-course Betting) DIFFICULTIES Amendment Bill (Int.)-Education (Amendment) Bill (Int.)-Industrial Arbitration (Amendment) PETITION Bill (lnt.)-Farm Water Storages and Bores Sub­ sidies Bill (Int.) -Housing Agreement Bill (Int.) -Gaming and Betting (Amendment) Bill (Int.) Mr RAMSAY presented a petition pray­ -Prevention of Oil Pollution of Navigable ing that urgent action be taken to provide Waters (Amendment) Bill (second reading)­ Adjournment (Air Pollution in Port Kembla)­ adequate detection, diagnostic and remedial Printed Questions and Answers. services for children with specific learning difficulties. Mr SPEAKER (THE HoN. SIR KEviN Petition received on motion by Mr ELLis) took the chair at 2.30 p.m. Ramsay. Mr SPEAKER offered the Prayer. CALWALLA LEVEL CROSSING PETITION AUSTRALIAN CONSTITUTIONAL Mr BREWER presented a petition pray­ CONVENTION ing that action be taken to provide warning lights and other safety measures at the Cal­ Mr SPEAKER: I have to inform the House walla level crossing without undue delay. that I have received a letter from the Chief Petition received on motion by Mr Executive Officer of the Australian Constitu­ Brewer. tional Convention, Mr John Finemore, Q.C., enclosing a copy of the following resolution adopted unanimously by the Convention on QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE Friday last: COMPANY LAW That this Convention of Delegates of the Parliaments of Australia and Representa­ Mr HILLS: I ask the Premier and Treas­ tives of Local Government in Australia place urer a question without notice. Does the on record its sincere appreciation of the gen­ Barton company scandal reveal many weak­ erous actions of the Legislative Council and nesses in company law in this State, in­ the Legislative Assembly of New South Wales cluding inadequate requirements for accur­ in so willingly placing at its disposal for the ate stating of company assets or information conduct of this Session of the Australian Con­ about nominee shareholdings, and in­ stitutional Convention the Chambers of the Parliament and the many facilities and related adequate provision for State supervision of services essential to the successful conduct of the share market and company operations? discussions and debates on matters of para­ Why does the Government lack the will to mount importance to the people of Australia. legislate to the fullest limit of oversea com­ I should like to take this opportunity of pany law for protection of the public against sincerely thanking all members of the Legis­ business criminals? To prevent another such lative Assembly for their co-operation raid on the public, and pending handing during the week of the Convention by over to the Commonwealth of full responsi­ making minimum use of the facilities of the bility for company law, will the Premier House, which I was well aware entailed a have an exhaustive overhaul made of New great deal of inconvenience to them in South Wales company law, despite pressure carrying out their duties to their constitu­ en the Government from some business ents. Also; I express my warm appreciation interests to leave it as it is? Questions without Notice {11 SEPT., 1973] 'Questions without Notice 693 Sir ROBERT ASKIN: I am assured by other than to confirm that they will be ad­ my colleague the Attorney-General that to­ verse indeed--extremely adverse. The pro­ day the company laws in this State are im­ jected rise in interest rates-supported by measurably stronger than when we came to the Prime Minister and his Labor Party col­ office. When we came to office in 1965 leagues here-will cost every borrower of after twenty-four years of Labor govern­ home finance in this country more money. ments we found that the position left much to be desired. Although I suppose there will Mr NEILLY: Tell honourable members always be room for improvement, it is re­ about the developers. cognized by the business community that the Mr BRUXNER: I will tell honourable position today is much stronger than it was members about the developers. As a result when we took office in 1965. The Leader of of Mr Whitlam's revaluation over the week­ the Opposition mentioned that we should try end two of the largest land developers in to bring ourselves up to date with other this State made a profit of $1 million and countries. Again I am assured-and as $650,000 respectively because of money they it is a legal matter I must look had been borrowing overseas. to my colleague the Attorney-General for advice-that the company law situation and Mr NEILLY: Tell us the story. protection for the investor are stronger Mr SPEAKER: Order! in New South Wales than in most countries of the world. Although from time to Mr BRUXNER: That is the effect that time during both the term of office of our revaluation is having on developers. I won­ predecessors and our term of office there der what the Prime Minister meant when, have been company failures and things have supported by the State Labor Opposition, gone wrong, I do not think that we should he said that his financial policies were condemn the whole system because of these designed to curb the activities and profits occasional breakdowns in it. The Attorney­ of land developers and speculators. General together with his advisers is look­ [Interruption] ing closely into these various matters and from time to time where it is appropriate Mr SPEAKER: Order! I call the honour­ he will make reports to the House. The able member for Cessnock to order for the Leader of the Opposition referred to pres­ first time. sure on the Government: all I can say is that I know of no such pressure whatsoever. Mr NEILLY: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I call the honour­ DOLLAR REVALUATION AND INTEREST able member for Cessnock to order for the RATES second time. Mr COATES: My question without notice Mr BRUXNER: Today, and on many is directed to the Minister for Housing and previous occasions, there has been reference Minister for Co-operative Societies and re­ in this House to the activities of Mr Alex­ fers to the recent revaluation of the dollar ander Barton. If these activities are as by the federal Labor Government and the alleged he should blush with shame; as a predicted increase in interest rates. Will the confidence trickster he is only an amateur Minister indicate what adverse effects these compared with the Prime Minister of Aus­ tralia and the federal Treasurer. They have changes will have on the hundreds of people perpetrated the cruellest hoax that has ever now building or about to build homes in been put over our people because they have my electorate? Also, what will b~ the effects destroyed any hope that parents with young on the home-building programme in the families had of assisting themselves to State generally? finance homes. Honourable members oppo­ site can say what they like but their federal Mr BRUXNER: I cannot indicate how Labor colleagues have given the stamp of _.great the adverse effects of the federal Labor .approval to a rise in borrowing _rates for · Government's new financial policy will be loans from building societies and lending 694 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice institutions. It will cost more money to bor­ which the prospectus for that company in­ row money for the building of a home. cluded on the front page a photograph of That is the adverse effect that the federal the MLC building. The honourable mem­ policy will have. It has been a snare and a ber for Dulwich Hill suggested that the law delusion for the federal Labor Party to needed strengthening. It was my impression claim that it intended to assist the home that the strengthening in the area he sug- builders of this nation. As Minister for . gested did occur in another place, though Housing in New South Wales I shall be perhaps not to the full extent proposed by doing everything possible to resist increased the honourable gentleman. I have it in mind interest rates. also that when the bill came back to this House I paid a tribute to him for having COMPANY PROSPECTUSES made the suggestion for strengthening the law. Mr SHEAHAN: I ask the Attorney­ General a question without notice. Is it a The fact is that in August, 1967, for the fact that during the debate on the new Com­ first time in Australian history, the standing panies Act the honourable member for committee of Attorneys-General appointed Campbelltown suggested that he would what became known as the Eggleston com­ probably move by way of an amendment pany law advisory committee under the that on every prospectus after the name of presidency of a federal judge, Sir Richard a director there should be included any Eggleston. The standing committee of other companies, or subsidiaries of com­ Attorneys-General itself had been formed panies, of which he is a director? Did the only towards the end of the 1950's and my Attorney-General state that he would fav­ predecessor played a substantial part in it ourably consider the matter and have it up to the time the change of government looked at with a view to the amendment occurred. The Eggleston company law ad­ being included in the bill in another place? visory committee assisted greatly the stand­ Is it a fact, also, that the Leader of the ing committee of Attorneys-General. The Government in the Legislative Council, Eggleston committee had as members also having obtained the consent of the various' a Sydney chartered accountant, Mr Cox, Attorneys-General, promised to add this to and a Melbourne solicitor, Mr John Rodd, the Companies Act but was prevented from both of whom gave their time voluntarily doing so by those associated with com­ in the ensuing years, and until July of this panies, either professionally or financially? year. The advisory committee produced, Will the Attorney-General reconsider this I think, seven reports, most of which con­ matter so as to prevent interlocking com­ tained proposals that were implemented in panies from becoming inter-robbing com­ this State, in Victoria and, I think, in a panies and takeovers from becoming take­ majority of States as well as in the Aus­ downs, in the interests of the public and in tralian Capital Territory prior to the change order to preserve rectitude and to prevent of government in Canberra. the stock exchange from adverse criticism? At a meeting of the standing committee Mr McCAW: I am looking back now of Attorneys-General in Perth at the begin­ over a number of years, but I think that ning of July this year Sir Richard Eggleston the answer to the first part of the question and his colleagues asked to be relieved of asked by the honourable member for Bur­ rinjuck is, yes. In those days the honour­ further work as an advisory committee. It able member for Campbelltown represented was a plank in the platform of the Whitlam the electorate of Dulwich Hill, and the first Opposition, as it then was, that a national debate on a substantial amendment of com­ companies Act would be brought down by pany law occurred after the Government a federal Labor government. Following the came to office. My recollection is that the election of a Labor government, the federal legislation was introduced in the shadow Attorney-General, Senator Murphy, in­ cast by the Palmer company crash on, formed a meeting of the standing commit­ speaking from memory, 18th May, 1965, in tee of Attorneys-General in Sydney in Questions without Notice (11 SEPT., 1973] Questions without Notice 695 March, categorically and quite unequivoc­ did not do so even after twenty-four year& ally, that he expected to introduce such of Labor rule in New South Wales. Com­ legislation in Canberra within twelve pany law in New South Wales is vastly months of that date. The result of the an­ stronger now than it was during the days of nouncement was that company officers Labor administration. It could be strength­ throughout Australia were unable effectively ened further had the Commonwealth not to continue their work during the interval declared its firm intention to intrude into in which the federal law was being pre­ this field. If the Prime Minister and his pared. Honourable members will know that Attorney-General would admit that they are the federal Government imported American uncertain of the Commonwealth powers and lawyers to assist it in the drafting of leave legislating in this area to the States, national company legislation. I am sorry we could do additional work in this field. indeed that a hiatus has occurred in con­ sequence of a declaration of an intention LOCAL GOVERNMENT AREAS that may never be carried into effect. Mean­ Mr MUTTON: I direct my question with­ while, of necessity that declaration has put out notice to the Deputy Premier, Minister a stop to work that was being done by the for Local Government and Minister for Eggleston company law advisory committee Highways. Is the Minister aware that the and, through it, by the standing committee Leader of the Opposition in this House re­ of State and federal Attorneys-General in cently indicated quite definitely to all shire this realm. clerks and town clerks in New South Wales In 1971, the High Court, in the Rocla­ that thirty-two municipalities and shires in Hume Concrete Pipes case, declared that the the metropolitan area were to be abolished Commonwealth has much wider powers in under Labor's programme? Will the Minis­ the field of corporation law than had pre­ ter indicate the stand that this Liberal­ viously been believed. However, the High Country party coalition Government will Court refused to define the area of the Com­ take against this outrageous and undemo­ monwealth's authority. The result is that cratic proposal? there are grey areas in the Commonwealth's authority to legislate, though quite defi­ Mr SPEAKER: Order! I wonder whether nitely it does have wider power than the honourable member for Yaralla has read was previously thought. The Standing the latest edition of The Parliamentarian Committee of Attorneys-General-and this from England which was circulated recently? applies particularly to the Labor-governed That publication indicated that the atten­ States-have concluded that, until it is tion of Mr Speaker was invited to the fact known what Senator Murphy and his col­ that members of the Conservative Party leagues in Canberra intend to do, it is use­ were asking the Prime Minister questions less for the committee to continue in a that concerned the Leader of the Opposition or the national executive of the Labour substantial way the work that it believed it Party. Mr Speaker Lloyd ruled that the was doing effectively. Prime Minister was not responsible for the For instance, in 1971 it was my privilege actions of the Leader of the Opposition and as Attorney-General to bring into the House therefore he should not be questioned about the largest amending bill in the history of them. It seems to me that the question this Parliament. That was a tremendous step asked by the honourable member for Yaralla forward and that amending legislation con­ falls precisely within that category and tained much of the Jenkin committee recom­ therefore should be disallowed. mendations in England and most of the Egg­ leston company law advisory committee's ALEXANDER BARTON recommendations, all designed for the pro­ Mr MULOCK: My question without tection of the investing public. Of course, as notice is directed to the Attorney-General. the Premier has said, more can be done. Is it a fact that the initial report of the The Crimes Act does not stop crime and inquiry into the Barton companies discloses 69'6 [ASSEMBLY] · Question·s witho'ttt Notice

~ l6ss of $16 million: to creditors? Is that have fost money and from members of tlre loss substantialiy tied up with 1oans or ad­ accounting profession and the legal profes­ vanees made by public companies to private sion. I have no doubt that over the years companies in which Aiexander Barton had my predecessors in office, including the hon­ a substantial and controlling interest? If this ourable member for Borrinjuck and his suc­ t!l the position, will the Minister tell the cessor, the Hon. R. R. Downing, got them House whether any recommendation has too; so I should not like the honourable been made-·-·-· member for Nepean to take from what I have said that nobody has ever made such Mr VINEY~ On a point of order. Question a suggestion though I cannot recall any number 112 on the Questions and Answers proposal of the kind. However, I shall paper, asked by the honourable member for treat the honourable member's question as Campbelltown and directed to the Attorney­ a suggestion and, if I may say so without General, relates to the Barton group of com­ being patronizing, as a worthwhile one, that panies and refers to disbursements to direc­ ought to go to the commissioner for con­ tors, directors' fees, roans and other matters. sideration and implementation if possible. lt would seem therefore that the honour­ able member for Nepean is out of order in I say again, however, that there is a very canvassing that same area. real problem in this field because of what I called the other day the overhanging threat Mr SPEAKER; Order! The mere fact of federal legislation. That threat prevents, that a question on the question paper is in the Labor-governed States as well as in unanswered does not preclude a similar Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria, question from being asked in the House. further substantial efforts in this field. These Mr MULOCK: Will the Attorney-Gen­ efforts have been made over the years and eral inform the House whether he has in they were still in progress when the change the past or in recent times received any of Commonwealth Govemment occurred. request from his advisers in the office of The promise-to use a more friendly word the Commissioner for Corporate Affairs, or ~of national legislation is holding up fur­ in any other way in which he receives ad­ ther substantial work in this field by the vice, requesting that legislation be intro­ States. lt may well be that something of duced to preVent loans by public companies the sort suggested by the honourable mem­ to private companies in which directors of ber £or Nepean can be done, even during the public company have a substantial share­ the interregnum. I shall refer the honour­ holding? If the Attorney-General has not able member's question to the Commissioner received this advice and so assures the for Corporate Affairs for consideration and House, will he give favourable consideration advice. to introducing legislation that will prevent public companies from lending their public TRADE MISSION TO PEKING funds to private companies in which the Mr DARBY: I ask the Minister for directors of the public companies have a Mines, Minister for Power and Assistant controlling interest? Treasurer whether he has been informed Mr McCAW: I think I can give the of a proposed trade mission to Peking assurance that I have not had any recom­ organized by the Commonwealth Govern­ mendation such as the honourable member ment. Will the Minister make strong rep­ for Nepean has suggested from the Com­ resentations that no discussions be held re­ missioner for Corporate Affairs. garding the import to Australia of coal pro­ duced by slave labour? Will the Minister, Mr MULOCK: Or from anyone else? as Minister for Power, be willing to sacrifice Mr McCAW: No, I cannot recall speci­ the reduced costs of electricity generation fically receiving such a recommendation in order to maintain employment by coal­ from anybody, but one does get letters by miners even though they are organized to the score, especialty from investors who vote for a pro-communist government? Will Questions without Notice [11 SEPT., 1973] Questions without Notice 697 the Minister do his utmost to promote the the use of a pipe of unplasticised polyvinyl sale of good Australian coal to non-com­ chloride to connect a closet pan on the munist China-Taiwan? ground floor of a building in those areas to the house drain has been permissible, also Mt FIFE: My attention has been invited subject to certain restrictions. to published statements that a trade mis­ sion is going to red China. I have not Until now, however, it has not been con­ been officially informed of this-there is sidered desirable to amend the relevant no reason why I should be. I do not think ordinances under the Local Government Act the honourable member for Manly was to permit the more general use of UPVC or serious when he made the suggestion about other plastic pipes and fittings in areas out­ the possible importation of coal into New side the board's sphere of operation. which South Wales or any other part of Aus­ are under the control of municipal and shire tralia. Doubtless the honourable member's councils. This is mainly because, unlike question has been framed to ensure that the board, councils could not place the onus this matter does not escape my attention or of responsibility on the property-owner in the attention of other authorities concerned the event of failure of the pipes or fittings. in it. In other words, it is an insurance Having regard to the experimental nature question. I assure the honourable member of the installations in the board's area, it and the House that my administration, the has previously been considered that amend­ Government and the Joint Coal Board are ment of the ordinances could not be justi­ doing everything possible to co-operate with fied in the light of the then level of know­ private enterprise to foster the export under ledge and experience. However, there is acceptable conditions of steaming coal in now sufficient evidence available to justify particular and also coking coal from New the more general use of plastic materials for South Wales. I raise a question about only plumbing and drainage applications in one thing that the honourable member said. country areas, although I am informed that He referred to coalminers as being sup­ unplasticised polyvinyl chloride is the only porters of a pro-communist government. I commercially available plastic material am inclined to the view that many coal­ which is suitable for such purposes. Ac­ miners in this State would vote Liberal. cordingly, action is now proceeding as quickly as possible to amend the relevant PVC PIPING IN PLUMBING ordinances to permit the use of pipes and fittings of that material subject to certain Sir CHARLES CUTLER: . On 29th safeguards which will be specified in the August the honourable member for Dubbo amendments. asked me a question relating to the use of PVC piping in plumbing. I understand that METRIC ROAD SIGNS for some years the Metropolitan Water Sew­ erage and Drainage Board has permitted Mr MORRIS: On 22nd August, 1973,. the use of pipes and fittings of plastic the honourable member for Monaro asked materials, including unplasticised polyvinyl me a question about the introduction of chloride-UPVC-in house plumbing and metric road signs. The honourable mem­ ber suggested that we should take the op­ drainage systems. However, the use of the portunity, during the changeover, to con­ pipes was initially on an experimental basis vert our road signs to international stan­ only and subject to a number of restrictions, dards. As I mentioned in my initial reply, including a written acceptance of responsi­ this matter was discussed at the July meet­ bility from the property-owner. For many ing of Transport Ministers and, on refresh­ years it has also been permissible to use ing my mind, I am now able to inform the· approved plastic fittings, but not pipes, in honourable member and the House that conjunction with certain fixtures not receiv­ all States have adopted a whole range of ing sewage in house drainage services in signs for use on the roads in all States and country areas under the control of munici­ territories on a uniform basis. The signs pal and shire councils. Further, since 1967 are included in a publication known as the 69S Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice Australian Manual of Uniform Traffic Con­ base from which to operate child health, trol Devices. Though not all of them are in mental health and community health facili­ accord with international standards, many ties; ( 5) action is being taken to develop are. The question of converting all our forthwith plans for a polyclinic on the land signs to international standards has been that has been acquired close to the Mount examined on a number of occasions. Al­ Druitt town centre; and ( 6) a feasibility though I personally feel that the idea is study is being conducted in connection with sound in principle, Australia is not in the the provision on the Mount Druitt hospital same position as many European countries site of a minimum-care post-natal unit. which have common boundaries. We are Recently the Commonwealth Government not faced with the same urgency to change announced that it would provide financial over to symbol-type road signs, which are assistance for health services. It can be stated so necessary in Europe, where there are that it will now be possible to commence to special language problems. implement in the very near future the pro­ The consensus among Transport Minis­ jects covered by items 4, 5 and 6. In addi­ ters is that we should maintain many of tion, funds have been allocated for a hos­ our existing road signs, particularly those pital to be built at Mount Druitt with ex­ which convey messages in words as well as penditure proposed to commence in 1977- symbols. The honourable member may be 78. assured, however, that the question of adopt­ ing a wider range of international road signs ASBESTOS DUST will be kept under close and critical review. I might add that, so far as metric signs are Mr JAGO: On 23rd August, 1973, the concerned, honourable memBers will be in­ honourable member for Granville asked me terested to learn that metric speed limit several questions concerning asbestos dust. signs will start appearing on our roads from I have been advised of the details of the 1st July next year. The changeover of these death of a wife of a worker in an asbestos signs is expected to be completed by 31st plant in the Granville area. This case is at July. Work will then proceed on the change­ present sub judice. Apparently a decision over of other signs, including bridge clear­ has not yet been made by the New South ances, destination and mileage, warning Wales Supreme Court on whether the wom­ ahead, parking and other such signs. an's death was due to asbestos inhalation. However, it is known that the woman died HOSPITAL FOR MOUNT DRUITT from mesothelioma of the left pleura, lung and pericardium. It is generally accepted that Mr JAGO: On 16th August, 1973, the mesothelioma of the pleura is frequently as­ honourable member for Mount Druitt asked sociated with past exposure to crocidolite me a question concerning the proposed hos­ or blue asbestos. It is not so generally pital for Mount Druitt and the provision of accepted that mesothelioma can be associ­ health services in this area. The following ated with exposure to amosite asbestos. It decisions have been made in regard to the is recognized that a number of years may provision of health facilities and services for elapse after exposure before the malignant the Mount Druitt area: ( 1) land at disease is manifested. The average time is Colyton reserved for a hospital will be re­ 33 years. Blue asbestos was processed until tained for health purposes; (2) major paedi­ approximately 1958-1959 and amosite atric facilities will be incorporated into the asbestos until a later date. As far as is Westmead hospital and the Health Commis­ known, the use of these two forms of asbes­ sion will establish paediatric facilities at tos has been discontinued, being replaced Blacktown and Nepean hospitals as quickly by chrysotile which does not cause meso­ as its resources will allow; (3) the Health thelioma. Commission is negotiating with the Black­ The concept that mesothelioma was town hospital to provide an additional 48 associated wth asbestos dust was not sug­ obstetric beds; ( 4) space is being rented in gested until 1960 by which time the use of the Mount Druitt town centre to provide a crocidolite asbestos was already being Questions without Notice [11 SEPT., 1973] Price Control 699 phased out. It is not a fact that asbestosis Mr SPEAKER: Order! The remarks of can be contracted as a neighbourhood the Deputy Leader cf the Opposition are disease by persons living in the vicinity of surely not relevant to urgency. an asbestos plant using chrysotile. It has been suggested by some authors that the Mr EINFELD: The urgency results from disease could be contracted in this way if the Premier's attitude. This matter is especi­ crocidolite asbestos was involved, which of ally important because of the way in which course is not used today. With regard to the Premier talked on this matter at the the honourable member's request that these Australian Constitutional Convention in re­ companies be inspected I point out that spect of the New South Wales Government's officers of the· Health Commission and the attitude. The New South Wales Govern­ Department of Labour and Industry have ment's approach was the most cynical of been regularly inspecting these plants for all the conservative-governed States. two decades. It is not within my powers to Mr BRoWN: On a point of order. The compel companies to be responsible for the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, under the washing of employees' working clothes. This guise of urgency, is obviously trying to put matter falls within the administration of my forward a point of view which, incorrect colleague, the Minister for Labour and In­ as it may be, he is entitled to advance when speaking to the substantive motion but not dustry, whose department will be em­ on the motion of urgency. I suggest that powered to compel companies using asbes­ he is completely out of order. tos to wash the protective clothing of the employees. This matter is covered in the Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am sure the proposed regulations under the Factories, Deputy Leader of the Opposition appre­ ciates the necessity to confine himself to Shops and Industries Act, 1962, which urgency. I am sure also that he would should be promulgated at the end of this not deliberately seek to circumvent a direc­ year. tion of the Chair. Mr EINFELD: As always, I shall re­ spect your ruling and follow it closely. At PRICE CONTROL the convention the Premier said, "Sure, we will give you our powers to, control prices URGENCY provided you include incomes and also if Mr EINFELD (Waverley), Deputy you act as I want you to. But, in return we Leader of the Opposition [3.2]: I move: want a greater share of income tax col­ That it is a matter of urgent necessity that lection." He knows that, no matter which this House should forthwith consider the fol­ party is in power in Canberra, the govern­ lowing motion, viz.: ment of the day will never agree to such That in the opinion of this House the a proposition. His attitude amounted to Gc;>vemment must immediately introduce pnce control on all essential commodities political blackmail. and services, or refer its price control pow­ ers to the Australian Government. Mr JACKETT: On a point of order. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition is ob­ This matter is urgent because it is time for viously reading from a prepared brief that the Parliament to compel the Government has nothing whatever to do with urgency. to take positive action against rising prices. At no stage in his statement has he indi­ The performance of the Premier and Treas­ cated the urgency of the matter. I submit urer on this matter at the Australian Con­ that he is completely out of order. stitutional Convention was in my opinion a disgrace to this State. The New South Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Deputy Wales Government's approach was the most Leader of the Opposition has to be allowed cynical of all the conservative-governed some indulgence to explain the facts and States. circumstances before he can show the 700 Price Control [ASSEMBLY] Price Control urgency of the motion that he wishes to motion. He is entitled to put before the move, but I ask him not to carry the matter House what he describes as great increases too far. in prices to show that it is urgent that something be done about the matter. Mr EINFELD: I am just building up my argument. The whole matter requires Mr EINFELD: In Adelaide a pound of immediate attention because, in fact, the onions rose by 1c to 11 c; steak went from Premier is saying, "I won't refer this State's 98c to $1.07, and lamb from 49c to 70c a lb. price control power to the Commonwealth nor will my Government take any action [Interruption] to stop price increases." He is willing to Mr SPEAKER: Order! I call the honour­ allow prices to continue to skyrocket in an able member for Bligh to order. attempt to try to gain some cheap political advantage. Sydney is by far the dearest Mr EINFELD: The figures show that capital in Australia. Land, housing and food any average block of land costs $7,000 in are dearer in Sydney that in any of the Adelaide and $14,000 in Sydney. It costs other capital cities. The cost of food in $17,295 to build a house in Sydney; the country cities and towns is even more same house costs $14,035 in Adelaide. alarming. The Country Party and rural Average weekly earnings in Sydney for the Liberal Party members do nothing. June quarter were $111.70; the Adelaide Rises this year in food have been astro­ figure was $100. That explodes the myth nomical. Potatoes and onions have more trotted out by the Premier and his Liberal than doubled in price since January, potatoes deputy-the Minister for Education-that going from 55c to $1.18 for 7 lb and prices are only slightly lower in Adelaide. onions from lOc to 21c a lb; steak has It can be clearly seen that they are sub­ gone from $1.06 a lb to $1.32, and stantially lower, the saving on house and lamb from 51c a lb to 75c. A com­ land being more than $10,000. In any case, parison shows that in Adelaide, which it is urgent to realize that neither Adelaide the Premier of New South Wales and the nor any other city should be the criterion, deputy leader of the Liberal Party are al­ but that it is the fundamental situation of ways quoting and where price control is the ordinary citizen which requires serious enforced by the State Labor Government, remedial action. It is vital because the real potatoes rose from 52c to 92c for 7 lb; a value of wages is being continually eroded. lb of onions rose by 1c to 11c; steak went It is urgent that this House give the Gov­ from 98c to $1.07, and lamb from 49c to ernment a clear-cut indication that it must 70c a lb. either exercise its price control powers or give them to the federal Government. The Mr HEALEY: On a point of order. Mr Premier can argue until he is black in the Speaker, you have given the Deputy Leader face that price control will not work with­ of the Opposition certain latitude so that he might develop his arguments on ur­ out a wage freeze, but it is vital to realize gency, but I submit that the information that wages are already subject to controls. and figures that he is now putting to the The Labor Party does not accept the view House would normally be given when that wages should be further frozen. They speaking to the substantive motion. In any are already controlled in almost every in­ event, this part of his submissions is not stance by rigid price control. It has been related to urgency: the matters that he is proved wrong in South Australia and will now discussing have been going to for some be proved wrong over the whole of Aus­ time and they are not matters of urgency tralia once the conservative-govern~d States at the moment. refer their price control powers to the fed­ Mr SPEAKER: Order! The material with eral Labor Government or, alternatively, .if which the Deputy Leader of the Opposition the New South Wales Government acts im­ is dealing at the moment could be dealt mediately to freeze prices within its own · with either on urgency or on the substantive borders. Price Control [11 SEPT., 1973] Price Control 701 If urgency is granted and we are given reason why the Commonwealth Govern­ time to argue the substantive motion, I shall ment, which is supported by the Deputy put before the Government many more Leader of the Opposition, is not doing any­ examples of vicious price rises that are erod­ thing positive about inflation might be ing the earnings of workers and robbing found in the budget figures that were pro­ them of reasonable wage justice. We of the duced only a couple of weeks ago. The Com­ Opposition believe that the time has come monwealth budget figures show that during for this Government either to refer its price the current financial year, which began on control powers to the federal Government 1st July, the total income tax on private in­ or to use them immediately itself. dividuals and company tax will increase by no less than 24.4 per cent, or a total of Sir ROBERT ASKIN (Coliaroy), Pre­ $1,397 million. As the Commonwealth Gov­ mier and Treasurer :[3.9]: The Deputy ernment has a vested interest in inflation, it Leader of the Opposition, in introducing do

House. It is common knowledge that the the greatest possible censure. Unless the reason he resigned was that the pace had Minister for Housing and Minister for Co­ got a little too hot. There had to be a cover operative Societies gets down to trying to do up so he went to pastures green. something for all the people of New South Then there were the amendments to the Wales, he will finish up like his colleague, Public Works Act of 1912 and the Housing the former Minister for Housing. The pre­ Act of 1945. In the cover up there was the sent Minister already has one foot out of ·Concealment of matters of public interest in Cabinet, and if he is not careful, there will the acquisition of land. Those Acts were be a landslide, with the Government looking amended so that instead of it being neces­ for somebody to replace him in his job, and sary to report it to the Padiament in the case to cover up further the scandals we have in of land that was worth $100,000, the New South Wales, particularly in relation amount was increased to $1 million. Though to land and housing. members of the Opposition protested, the The Reverend Alan Walker said that the measure was railroaded through this House Government had forfeited its right to on party-political lines because the Govern­ govern. In reply to that statement the Pre­ ment had to hush up the Lurnea scandal and mier and Treasurer said that the Deputy other land scandals. Premier, Minister for Local Government When the Government took away the and Minister for Highways planned large­ right of Parliament to approve the expendi­ scale releases of building land. Let us ex­ ture of huge amounts of public money for amine the actions of the Deputy Premier, the acquisition of land for housing pur­ Minister for Local Government and Min­ poses, the Opposition took action to compel ister for Highways, the much vaunted leader the Minister for Housing and Minister for of the party to which the Minister for Co-operative Societies to explain why this Housing and Minister for Co-operative should be done. I told the new Minister, Societies belongs. Strangely, every spending the honourable member for Tenterfield, the portfolio in the present coalition Govern­ shining star from the North and Northwest, ment is controlled by the Country Party. that this matter had become a filthy politi­ cal football. One of the new Minister's first Mr CowAN: They are in good hands. tasks was to propose further amendments Mr CRABTREE: They are in good of the Public Works Act, 1912, and the hands when it comes to concealing what is Housing Act, 1945. During the debate I going on. told him that I wanted to raise the Bonny­ rigg land scandal. Honourable members Mr RUDDOCK: What about the portfolios had never before seen anything like the of education and health; they are both held Minister's reaction. Until then I did not by Liberal Party Ministers. know that he was a trapeze artist. He cer­ Mr CRABTREE: The honourable mem­ tainly threw himself around the Chamber ber for The Hills interjects in desperation. in no uncertain manner. The facts relating He knows that tenders for work related to to Bonnyrigg were that a Government sup­ the portfolios of health and education are porter in another place owned land in the called for, examined and approved by the area, and the Government had decided that Minister for Public Works, who also is a it was not to be touched for Housing Com­ member of the Country Party. The hon­ mission purposes. This was another cover ourable member for The Hills is trying to up, another concealment of poor govern­ mislead the House. Twelve months ago the ment administration. Hon. C. B. Cutler, as he then was-he had It was then decided that part of the land not yet been recognized by the Queen­ owned by an honourable member in an­ came into this House and assured honour­ other place should be acquired by the Housing Commission. But on what terms? able members that he would be making .a Honourable members were not told. For full submission to Cabinet on the serious its dealing and double dealing, for its scan­ land shortage. That has to be related to his dalous activities, the Government deserves statement twelve months later that he is Mr Crabtree] Housing Crisis [11 SEPT., 1973] and Land Prices 705 going to do something about the matter. in that report by the Chairman of the Com­ At that time I accused the Deputy Premier, mission Mr Bourke. I do not know how Minister for Local Government and Minis­ he gets on with the Minister, but apparently ter for Highways of having private talks in they have lots of differences of opinion. his office with developers. The Minister took great exception to that statement and Mr BRUXNER: We have no differences told me that a lot of the developers were of opinion. his personal friends. Mr CRABTREE: I shall deal soon with Mr PETERSEN: And would ever remain the Minister's reply to a question on this so. matter to show whether he has any differ­ ences of opinion with the chairman of the Mr CRABTREE: That is right. Let Housing Commission. The commission's me remind honourable members what Sir report to Parliament was dated 30th June, Charles told them. In order to do this, I 1972. It was not available to honourable must brush the cobwebs off the Hansard members until after 22nd August, 1972. report of twelve months ago. The report However, it is available to the Minister for discloses that Sir Charles was quite frank. Housing and Minister for Co-operative I recall that he took his glasses off and said, Societies, and it was available also to the "I want to tell the House that I have con­ Deputy Premier, Minister for Local Gov­ ferred on this matter; I have had repre­ ernment and Minister for Highways. While sentatives of Contour Developments and the Deputy Premier was assuring the House Parkes Development in my office". When that the Housing Commission had ample honourable members indicated that they stocks of land, this is what the commission wanted to know what had been said at the reported to Parliament: meetings, they were told that that was a secret between the Minister and his personal Difficulties facing the Commission in acquir­ ing and servicing suitable areas of land for friends. That is what he told the House both immediate and future needs are both in relation to land acquisitions for the serious and complex and current reserves in the major urban complexes of Sydney, New­ Housing Commission, and now the Minister castle and Wollongong, are at a very low for Housing and Minister for Co-operative level. Societies is left holding the bag. The Hon. Who is wrong? C. B. Cutler said: A further question I asked was, what are Mr CAMERON: I think you probably are. the prospects of releasing to the Housing Com­ mission immediately unserviced outer area Mr CRABTREE: I shall leave this docu­ land, with the Housing Commission taking full ment for the honourable member for North­ responsibility for the servicing and development of that land? The answer to that- cott to read, for it is clear that the state­ ment made by the chairman of the Housing and I have already quoted this in part earlier- Commission is in conflict with a statement was that the Housing Commission has stocks made by a supposedly responsible Minister, of land which will satisfy its needs for a few the Leader of the Country Party in this years. House, who in my view misled honourable I want the House to know that Sir Charles members by assuring them that a major Cutler, the man now charged by the government department had a plentiful Premier and Treasurer with planning large­ supply of land for housing purposes. This scale land releases, said in August last year statement, I repeat, was made at a time that there was plenty of land available to when the Housing Commission had reported the Housing Commission for the next few to the Minister for Housing and Minister years. Subsequently, the annual report of for Co-operative Societies and to honour­ the Housing Commission was tabled in this able members generally that the stocks of House. I wish to refer to what was said land for such purposes were low. 45 706 Housing Crisis c [ASSEMBLY] -and Land Prices

Should some members from the Govern­ the St George-Sutherland area are wonder­ ment side of the House be not convinced ing what has happened to the 130 acres by what I say as to the sincerity of the set aside at Menai for Housing Commission Deputy Premier, Minister for Local Gov­ purposes. There has been a strange silence ernment and Minister for Highways I shall from the Government on this issue. go a little further. In planning growth Only one person has broken that silence areas an honest and sincere government, -again our old friend the Deputy Premier, really believing in decentralization, must Minister for Local Government and Min­ ensure that people are encouraged to go ister for Highways, who said in this House to new areas by being able to buy land there that as far as he was concerned if he had at a reasonable price. Whether it is Bath­ to make a choice between 130 acres of land urst-Orange, Port Macquarie-Taree or for homes for the people or an oil refinery wherever, land for homebuilding must be at Menai, he would settle for the oil refinery. available at a reasonable price. Any gov­ He was referring to land acquired by the ernment worth its salt would plan a modern State Planning Authority on behalf of the city with residential land within the finan­ Housing Commission. This Minister who, cial reach of the people to be encouraged according to the Premier, is the people's to that area. Will this happen at Bathurst­ saviour in relation to land values, said he Orange? believed that the land at Menai should be Mr Day, the former head of the Depart­ used to develop an oil refinery. Is it any ment of Decentralisation and Development, wonder that in the past year land prices was enthused with the idea that that would in Sydney have risen by 45 per cent? That happen and apparently the Government was is the fact. convinced that that was the right thing to In the past twelve months the price of do. But, only a few weeks ago the Deputy residential land in Sydney has risen by 45 Premier, Minister for Local Governm~nt per cent. I shall give a few comparisons. and Minister for Highways, together w1th In Adelaide the price of a house and land his colleague the Minister for Decentralisa­ located between five and ten miles from tion and Development, attended a meeting the G.P.O. costs an average of $15,811. in the Bathurst-Orange area. Mr G. Watts, In Hobart the cost of a comparable house president of the Canobolas shire, also and block of land averages $12,182. In attended that meeting and was reported as Sydney, the cost of a vacant block of land having said: situated between five and ten miles from Compensation for land acquired for the the G.P.O. averages $18,545. Therefore, growth centre should be based on comparable a block of land in Sydney costs about land throughout New South Wales, as pro­ $2,700 more than a block of land and house posed by Sir Charles Cutler, and not the October, 1972, valuation with a margin for in Adelaide and $6,000 more than a block inflation, as proposed by the Department of of land and house in Hobart. Decentralisation and Development. Mr CAMERON: Did the honourable Therefore the Deputy Premier, Minister for member say that the average price of a Local Government and Minister for High­ block of land in Sydney is $18,500? ways, the so-called saviour of the people in relation to land values, interfered so that Mr CRABTREE: I did. his wealthy country friends whose land is to be divided into residential lots will not get Mr CAMERON: In what area? the October, 1972, values with a bonus for Mr CRABTREE: In any area located inflationary trends. Instead, for them, the between five and ten miles from the Gen­ sky will be the limit. That has not been eral Post Office. Has the honourable mem­ denied by the Minister. Closer to my elec­ ber a knowledge of land in his electorate torate, in fact at Menai, is an even bigger cheaper than $18,500? mystery and I should like the Minister for Mr CAMERON: Yes. Housing and Minister for Co-operative Societies to answer this query. People in Mr JAcKsoN: Rubbish! Mr Crabtree] Housing Crisis [11 SEPT., 1973] and Land Prices 707

Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! If honour­ housed in New South Wales. The tenninat­ able members wish to chat they should go illg building society movement is being outside. The honourable member for starved for funds yet development com­ Kogarah should address the Chair and other panies and real estate agencies are burst­ honourable members should allow him to ing at the seams with money. This is a do so. In that way we can proceed with deplorable state of affairs. the debate. I wish to refer to a question I asked Mr CRABTREE: The figures. I have recently in this House. The Minister thought quoted are a fair assessment of the situa­ he did well when I asked a question in tion, despite the interjection which, of relation to Mr Bourke's call for a wartime course, was quite disorderly. I live only style crash programme in housing. I shall 10 miles from the General Post Office and analyse that question and reply to it in thc; I know that one would be most fortunate way I believe the Minister should have to buy land with all services in that area replied. I referred to the shortage of build­ for $18,500. I have given a comparison ing material and the diversion of building taken out by university staff and not by material for essential housing. That is politicians. What has been the reaction to what Mr Bourke called for too. One of the the high prices of land that has occurred difficulties faced by the Housing Commis~ under this Government? We read in the sion-and any country member would con­ daily financial columns that Stocks and firm this-is that it cannot always get ten­ Holdings Limited profit has jumped by ders for the construction of homes in coun­ $1 million. When we read further we see try centres. On 14th June last tenders were the juicy bit about all the good things that called for Housing Commission units in have happened to the shareholders of Smith Street, Wollongong. No tenders were Stocks and Holdings Limited but nothing received. Can the Minister tell the House about the blood, sweat and tears of home­ why? Has the Minister cared to inquire? less people. Last year Stocks and Holdings In the Wollongong area 2,500 families with Limited enjoyed a 41 per cent increase in top priority for housing are awaiting accom­ its profit. In 1972-73 the Mainline group modation. What has the Minister done to doubled its net profit, bringing it up to help them? He has suggested that I might $3,480,506. Leighton Holdings• Limited had approach the left-wing trade unions, as· he a turnover of $81,687,000, showing an im­ vaguely termed them, and ask them to pro­ provement of 41 per cent. Meanwhile L. J. duce some building materials. Hooker Limited was described as enjoying I shall tell the House why the Minister a boom result with an 89 per cent boost wants to have another look at the matter. in its real estate agency earnings showing a The report of the Hooker corporation profit of 21.2 per cent from $3,903,000 to should be available to the Minister. One $4,732,000. A subsequent headline referred sentence of that report reads: "The Hooker to Hooker's enjoying $5 million profit in corporation expects the severe glut of city the second half of the boost year. E. G. office space to continue until at least 1977." Long, a major house-building company in The Government has a large list of people New South Wales, showed a 39 per cent waiting for accommodation yet it is unable profit rise. to get builders to tender for home construc­ tion. When I asked the Minister a ques­ Bearing these figures in mind, is there tion about this problem he went on with any hope for the ordinary people? Does a lot of rot and nonsense about left-wing any member on either side of the House be­ unions. I wanted the Minister to tell the lieve that this is a marvellous· state of affairs House whether he has been in touch with when the Hous,ing Commission under this the Government about the problem. Has tragic Minister has 45,000 homeless families the Minister told the Premier that he is who have qualified even under his rigid unable to get builders to submit tenders? scheme for commission accommodation? Has he called on the builders and asked Additionally 100,000 families are badly them why they will not tender? 708 Housing Crisis [ASSEMBLY] and Land Prices

If the Minister did that, the builders Herald of 26th July as saying that soaring would tell him that the little master builder building costs were the result, to a great ex­ is being forced out of business; he, too, is tent, of over-ambitious homeseekers·. In being run over by the big developer. :essen­ that report the Minister said: tial building materials are being used to Too many people want a chateau where create the glut of office space that we have they should settle for a cottage. I believe the today. The Minister went haywire when he housing programme has suffered from excessive demands of this kind where we do not possess made that statement: he knew that he was the skilled tradesmen and the materials to being reported. He made a strange state~ provide the high and spacious standards of ment about the federal Minister for Hous­ homes to which so many aspire. ing. I was surprised because I had been The Minister made that comment at a time told that they were good mates and that when there is a five-year glut of office space if one saw Mr Johnson somewhere one in Sydney. However, the Minister for was sure to see Mr Bruxner also. They must Labour and Industry and his government have had a falling out. do not complain about the big developers During his statement the Minister said like L. J. Hooker, Stocks and' Holdings and that all that he had! received from the federal all the edifices they build in this city. The Minister for Housing were press state­ Minister for Labour and Industry said that ments, and that he had enough of them the homes which people are living in and to build a home. I suggest to the Minister purchasing are too luxurious. that he misled this House because while he was saying that all he had received were Mr CowAN: Has the honourable member press statements, I am informed that the for Kogarah got Mr Dusseldorp's report? final draft of the new Commonwealth-State Mr CRABTREE: No, I do not have his housing agreement was in his office. The report but I am certain the Minister for Minister has already given notice of this Housing and Minister for Co-operative agreement but a fortnight ago he assured Societies or one of his colleagues would the House that he had heard nothing from have it because I know they are all great the federal Minister for Housing. I should personal friends and would be welcome in like the Minister to explain himself to this his dining-room. House. Did he make a mistake like his predecessor did in regard to Lurnea? Did Mr BRUXNER: I have never met Mr he deliberately mislead this House or did Dusseldorp in my life. he make a slip of the tongue? His credi­ Mr CRABTREE: I said the Minister or bility as a responsible Minister must be in one of his colleagues. The Minister is un­ doubt because while he was answering my fortunate. If he has not met Mr Dussel­ question the new Commonwealth-State dorp I shall arrange for one of his col­ housing agreement was being processed in leagues to introduce him. his department and his officers were in con­ tact with the parliamentary draftsman. Mr BRUXNER: The honourable member Though the Minister assured the House that is being very careless with the truth. he had heard nothing from from the federal Minister for Housing, even the percentage Mr CRABTREE: The Minister knows of funds to be made available was being what I said. The Minister for Labour and discussed. Industry said that the trouble today is that the people of New South Wales want to live To see the attitude of the Government in chateaux, yet 145,000 people are living in one has only to go a little further and substandard conditions. examine what was said by the Minister for Mr CowAN: The honourable member Labour and Industry in another place. That for Kogarah wants to downgrade everyone Minister's solution to the problem is a little who builds a home; he wants to downgrade different from the one advanced in this their homes. That is what ·the honourable House. The Minister for Labom: and In­ member is doing and he should be ashamed dustry was reported! in the Sydney Morning of himself. Mr Crabtree] Housing Crisis [11 SEPT., 1973] and Land Prices 709 Mr CRABTREE: I am pleased that the man whom we should all admire. On a honourable member for Oxley agrees with memorable Sundav two weeks ago, when me. The Minister for Labour and Industry addressing a gathering in the Lyceum will tell the honourable member the posi­ theatre, the Reverend Alan Walker said tion. The Minister wants to downgrade that land was surely a gift of God to all the people; he says the people want homes people. It is our land, irrespective of our that are too good for them. The Minister religious convictions. It is the people's land. for Labour and Industry said that the people It is something inherent within the rights of New South Wales have chateau tastes of every individual. but only cottage incomes. Mr CAMERON: No private ownership of Mr CowAN: That is what the honour­ land? able member wants to do. Mr CRABTREE: Not really; it is our Mr CRABTREE: No, that is what the land. Minister for Labour and Industry wants to do. What I want to do--and what the Mr CAMERON: It should be public land? chairman of the Housing Commission wants to do--is to apply a priority in respect of Mr CRABTREE: It is our land and building materials so that if a person needs everybody has a right to share in it. I do a home he should have the first priority for not think the honourable member would building materials. People should be en­ quibble about that. couraged to build homes, whether they re­ side in Port Macquarie, Sydney, Wollong­ Mr CAMERON: Does the honourable gong or Port Kembla. Honourable members member want to abolish private ownership? know as well as I do that the local home­ builder is being put to the wall; the big Mr CRABTREE: I think it would be a developer is· cutting his throat. Big de­ good thing. I should like to see a system of velopers have access to building materials leasehold land. The people should have a and that is why this terrible situation has guarantee that they have a stake in their developed. own country-some land. I know that the honourable member for We all believe in our own hearts that this Oxley is amazed-just as I am-that a res­ ponsible Minister, the Minister for Labour is our land-this is our country. The de­ and Industry, should say that workers have mand is insistent, not just in Christian terms chateau tastes but only cottage purses. The but on a practical and ethical basis, that Minister implied that the reason for the the land be ours. It is the people's land and great housing shortage is that people are they have the right to say to any govern­ building homes that they cannot afford. The ment, whatever the financial system or the greatest difficulty today is the inability of political system, that it is the people's land. the terminating building society movement to provide sufficient funds to help people to Mr CAMERON: What sense of ownership obtain even a small project home. There are does the honourable member feel in a gov­ no chateau tastes in home building today. ernment bus? No government should continue to exist after the condemnation by the Reverend Mr CRABTREE: I do not think I should Alan Walker-and no one could claim that feel any sense of ownership in a government his political leanings are towards the Labor bus. Party. The Reverend Alan Walker has been Mr CAMERON: Would the honourable most outspoken on a number of oc:::asions. member feel a sense of ownership in any The honourable member for Northcott has non-privately-owned land? been entertained by that gentleman on a number of occasions. The Reverend Alan Mr CRABTREE: Who owns it, if it is Walker is a controversial Christian and a not privately owned land? 710 Housing Crid~ . [ASSEMBLY] and Land Prices

Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! Could we of affairs• when one considers the Govern­ possibly have less chatter? I appreciate that ment's reaction to what happened in the the honourable member has difficulty in Newcastle area recently at a Crown land answering the question but I ask him to ad­ auction. The people protested-not dress the Chair. physically or violently-at the method used, and one respons.ible Minister said that in Mr CRABTREE: We cannot liken a future the police would stand by when land government-owned bus to land. The position was auctioned. Good heavens, what is this is that the land is ours. Much of the land country coming to today when we have a acquired over the years has been obtained government, not popular or high in public through a patronage system by which per­ esteem, forcing this policy upon the sons have been granted land. Land has been people. acquired by patronage as we have it in our community today. Let us not forget that Mr VINEY: Is the honourable member we still have patronage. In the outer areas talking about his federal colleagues and of Sydney land is owned by L. J. Hooker, what they have done with interest rates? Parkes Development and other big develop­ ment companies. Somehow, unwittingly, Mr CRABTREE: We shall deal with our those companies have received information federal colleagues.. I listened to a question from the State Planning Authority that if without notice today about interest rates. they acquire x land for y dollars it will be No announcement on interest rates has released in two years' time. been made so far. The only announce­ ment concerns a 5 per cent revaluation of Mr COWAN: Has the honourable mem­ currency, which does not necessarily affect ber any proof? That is a big statement. interest rates. Mr CRABTREE: My word it is. I am Mr CAMERON: Jt will be the third re­ glad that the honourable member for Oxley valuation in one year. Does the honourable interjected. His leader, the Deputy Premier, member realize that? Minister for Local Government and Minis­ ter for Highways brought down regulations Mr CRABTREE: That is another matter. imposing a heavy penalty on public servants I call upon the Government to resign. I who released premature information in re­ was sorry to see the Minister's colleague, lation to land being dealt with by the State the Hon. S. T. Stephens, compelled to re­ Planning Authority. I am not denying these sign as Minister for Housing and Minister things. I have been warned by Mr Speaker for Co-operative Societies. I do not think on previous occasions and I will stand up it was the former Minister's fault. He had to my responsibilities. This land does not to cover up and conceal the malpractices belong to L. J. Hooker or the Askin Govern­ of the Government. I do not want to see ment: it belongs to this community. Every the present holder of the portfolio forced newborn child has the right to live decently into the same situation. It would save him in the community and not to be exploited considerable embarrassment if he were to by development companies such as those confer with the Premier and Treasurer and being encouraged by this Government. ask him what will be done to assist in housing and in respect of the calling of Mr VINEY: Would the honourable mem­ tenders without any response. I suggest ber like to talk about the green-belt releases that the Minister, instead of resigning, under the Labor administration? should tell the Premier and Treasurer to resign and give those who believe in giving Mr CRABTREE: I should like to talk the people of New South Wales a chance about releases· of all administrations·, but all to obtain decent housing an opportunity to I want to talk about now is the fact that get on with the job. this Government has forfeited the right to Mr CAMERON (Northcott) [4.17]: I govern because it has taken away from the say most sincerely that almost invariably I people the right to own a block of land­ enjoy the speeches made by the honourable the right to a home. It is a dreadrful state member for Koganih. There is always at Housing Crisis [11 SEPT., 1973] and Land Prices 711 least a little bit of theatre in them. That Was it not the selfsame Whitlam Govern­ greatest of all playwrights, with his un­ ment that went to the people last December canny knack for seeing into the future must upon a policy of increasing the real value have foreseen the honourable member for of pensions? What has happened since then? Kogarah when he spoke of a walking Pensions have gone up by 11 per cent but shadow, a poor player, who struts, and frets inflation has gone up by 13 per cent. So his hour upon the stage. Who else could much for the Whittam Labor policy of in­ he have had in mind but the honourable creasing the real value of pensions. Again, member for Kogarah? The honourable that is a perfect parallel with the Whitlam member normally tends to give a noisy and Government's policy in respect of interest vociferous speech. [Quorum formed.] I am rates. The selfsame Whitlam Government grateful to the honourable member for went to the people upon a policy of pre­ Merrylands. He has considerable physical serving and protecting the environment. One stature but, unfortunately, there is less to of the immediate results of its election is the him than meets the eye. announcement that an airport will be estab­ lished in beautiful Galston. In this very de­ I was pointing out that as a general rule bate the honourable member for Merrylands the honourable member for Kogarah in his made the lighthearted interjection: "We will rather noisy speeches tends to increase his get you some cheap land in Galston". He volume proportionately to his loss of sense may well jest, but that statement tends to be of direction. Today he was extremely sub­ tragically true: property values in Galston dued. He was quiet indeed. I wonder why. are sadly devalued as a result of the Whitlam Perhaps the reason is that the honourable Government's decision to site an airport member for Kogarah could not have found there. a more inappropriate time to move this motion in respect of housing than this day The honourable member for Kogarah -11th September, 1973-when our news­ attacked again and again every entrepreneur papers proclaim that as· a result of the who has gone into the development field to initiatives taken by his federal colleagues make profits for his shareholders by pro­ in Canberra, young homeseeking couples viding homes for the people: every person will have to pay much more in interest who has undertaken this task legitimately rates on their housing loans. This, of course, was subjected to vilification, smear and comes as part of a continuing pattern of slander in this House today. Yet what were exposed deception. the realities exposed by the Minister for Housing and Minister for Co-operative Prior to the last federal elections the Societies in his powerful answer at question Whittam Labor Government, as it now is, time today? In fact, two development com­ went to the people on a policy of low inter­ panies have been able to make profits of est rates and the holding down and contain­ $1 million on the one hand and $650,000 ing of interest rates. One dramatic, immedi­ on the other, without raising a finger, purely ate and positive effect of its election is that and simply as the result of the economic interest rates have skyrocketed, punishing string-pulling of the Whitlam Labor Gov­ the very section of the community-the ernment, which this week effected its third young marrieds striving for a home-which is least able to take the punishment. This revaluation of the currency within twelve . is part of what I describe as a continuing months. There was one clear case of re­ pattern. Was it not the selfsame federal Gov­ valuation earlier, a second effective revalu­ ·ernment that went to the people upon an ation when the Whitlam Government failed assurance that it would spend on defence to move when the American dollar was de­ never less than 5 per cent of total govern­ valued, and now there is a straightforward ment expenditure? What is the expenditure revaluation that can do nothing but shatter 'On defence now? Is it 5 per cent? No, it is confidence in Australian currency. There are 2t per cent. That is exactly the same pat­ other examples of federal Labor activity in tern of deception as can be seen in respect the housing field. Only today it came to my of. interest rates in the housin~ field. knowledge that one major mining company 712 H a using Crisis [ASSEMBLY] and Land Prices has invested more than $3 million in real Mr CAMERON: He said that he wants estate. Why is a mining company putting to abolish private ownership of land. It is vast sums of money into real estate? already established by many researchers, following extensive inquiries, that there are Mr HEALEY: Because there is no money strong links between ownership of housing in mining. and quality of housing and personality de­ velopment. In Slums and Soda[ Insecurity, Mr CAMERON: As the honourable Alvin M. Schorr has expressed this clear member for Davidson says, because there is conclusion: no money in mining following successive revaluations by the federal Labor Govern­ The type of housing occupied influences health, behaviour and attitude, particularly if ment. It may be asked why that mining the housing is seriously inadequate. company did not put that money into shares. There is a good answer: the share It goes on: market has been shaken and is reeling from Housing when it is at least minimally ade­ the actions of the Whitlam Labor Govern­ quate, appears to influence family and social ment, and investors are discomfited. Now relationships. it is not a case merely of big development All these things are crystal clear. If the companies buying up land and inflating land element of ownership is present, as well as prices. As a direct consequence of the good quality housing, I believe that there improvident economic planning of the Whit­ is an improvement in the whole pattern of lam Government, other entities such as personal development, family structure and mining companies are going into the land all good intra-society relationships; but if field and buying up land. housing is bad, severe and undesirable con­ In my view, the Labor Party is pursuing sequences for the whole community flow housing policies that are absolutely fatal to from it. the long-term interests of the Australian What is the reality today? What is the people. I believe that Australia is entitled atmosphere in which the House this after­ to be proud of its achievement under a noon discusses the housing problem? It succession of federal Liberal governments is one in which there is constant talk eman­ in establishing the world's highest level of ating from federal Labor sources in Can­ home ownership. That is basically the berra about the creation of land commis­ achievement of successive Menzies Liberal sions and the possibility of land passing out governments. We on this side of the of private ownership. This would deny to House firmly believe that ownership is a the individual person the opportunity to vital element in strong personality develop­ own his own identifiable block of land on ment of the individual. Especially is this a site suitable to him, to invest his person­ so in the housing field. Whatever innova­ ality in that individual block of land, and tions are effected in the housing field, it to build on it a house that will reflect his must be ensured that they will lead ulti­ own personality and meet the needs of his mately to an increase in home ownership. own family. All these things are intrinsic­ The honourable member for Kogarah, who ally linked with the undeniable right of an is representative in many respects of think­ individual in a society such as ours to ing within the parliamentary Labor Party, secure for himself a particular plot of land. was, I believe, putting the view of his party This is the kind of right at which the federal when he said frankly that he thought it Labor Government is striking when it con­ would be a good idea to abolish private tinues again and again to talk of land com­ ownership of land. He made that firm missions. There is not the slightest doubt statement in response to a specific question in my mind that, given the chance, and if that I asked him. it is left in power long enough, the Whit­ Mr PETERSEN: He wanted a freeze put lam Labor Government will go ahead and on land. structure new institutions, commissions, Housing Crisis (11 SEPT., 1973] and Land Prices ~ 713 corporations and monstrosities like the rent What I am putting now is not a party control administration, which will linger on matter. I am referring to the kind of in the community for year after year and decentralization that really costs, hurts, and decade after decade, literally manufacturing imposes sacrifices on metropolitan taxpayers injustices day by day and year by year as -the kind of decentralization that would they continue to operate. involve, say, providing free transport for Housing is now being discussed again in raw materials being carried to decentralized the context of revived suggestions of rent manufacturing industries, and for the and tenancy controls. These suggestions finished products that are brought back to come from the Labor Party State branch the metropolitan market. I am referring to representatives in this Parliament. When the things that would really cost money and Deputy Leader of the Opposition was speak­ would hurt, such as making the cost of ing in this House onJy the other day I business telephone calls like postage-the asked him, by way of an orderly inter­ same from Sydney to Bourke as from jection, whether the Labor Party's policy Sydney to Beecroft in my electorate. amounted to a revival of full rent and All these proposals would work. Com­ tenancy controls. I got from him a most panies willing to go to a decentralized loca­ equivocal and uncertain answer, but there tion would be provided with real taxation is no doubt that under Labor there would incentives. be not only land commissions and the threat However, the plain truth is that right at of tenancy and renrt controls, but also the this moment the metropolitan electorate is haunting spectre of a new 1973, Canberra­ not ready to receive this kind of message inspired credit squeeze, which will impose when it passes beyond the realm of words higher interest rates on young married into the realm of fact, because as soon as couples. The honourable member for Koga­ the message hits the hip pocket nerve, the rah purported to champion a revival of metropolitan taxpayers, who provide the small local builders against the operations overwhelming bulk of taxation revenues, do of the big developer. I go along with him not want to foot the bill for decentralizing all the way in his call for the revival of the themselves. People engage in rhetoric about operations of the small local builder, but I decentralization, but when it comes to the suggest to him that, if Labor has its way, hard test, they will not accept the challenge. the real choice will be between the small They want everyone else's family but their local builder and a mammoth State-owned own to be decentralized; they want decen­ housing commission. If Labor has its way, tralization of every other factory except the it will have something of that kind, with a one that provides them with employment. choice beween the small local builder and If we as a community ultimately see the State landlordism. essential truths of decentralization, and can The whole of the speech by the honour­ assess the enormity of the unseen costs that able member for Kogarah, in so far as it a society bears when it becomes over­ related to land prices, totally misconceived urbanized, then the price of land on which the cause of escalating land prices. The to build a home might again be reasonable simple cause of this escalation is urbaniza­ and possess elements of common sense. tion. We are the most urbanized community on the face of the globe: we all insist on I have always been impressed by that crowding on to and over-occupying the same great pioneer of the decentralization argu­ basic, contained, limited plot of urban land. ment, William Cobbett, who was preoccu­ While ever we all insist upon living on the pied by what he used to describe as "Lon­ same plot of metropolitan land, nothing on don, the great wen-the monster called the earth-not the most rigorous socialist con­ metropolis of the empire". What he said trols-can stop the escalation of the real about the evils of urbanization in London and effective price of each block of land. If the price of land is to be contained, applies to Sydney, which has the most ur­ imaginative decentralization must be intr~ banized community on the face of the globe. duced. No doubt finance is the staff of life for the 714 Housing Crisis [ASSEMBLY] and. Land Prices housing industry. Inflation produced else­ societies increased by 121,000, or 26 per where, outside the housing industry, tends to cent, to about 582,000. This is equivalent be answered by government-imposed higher to one investment account for every eight interest rates to cut off demand for the people in the State. This is the type of , essential first need-good housing. This is housing development that members on the strange reasoning. Who, for instance, would Government side of this Chamber want to withhold food from a thin and hungry man see, rather than State landlordism, govern­ on the ground that it might stimulate others ment land commissions and so forth. who are overweight to eat more? Yet this is the kind of economic reasoning applied to­ Mr FISHER: They would have us in day. Although the causes of inflation are communes. low productivity outside the housing indus­ Mr CAMERON: We do not want the try, throughout the whole spectrum of in­ commune-style approach to housing in this dustry, the housing industry is singled out country. The average amount in an invest- , to 'bear the brunt of increased interest rates ment account in the societies increased to that are designed specifically to cut off effec­ $1,774. Investors earned $58 million on tive demand for the most important of all their savings investment accounts. At present commodities-good housing. there are just over seven investors for every A dominant and most heartening de­ home loan borrower. More than 82,000 velopment in recent years has been the esca­ families are buying their homes with loans lating popularity of the permanent building from permanent building societies. society. There are many characteristics dis­ One of the major hurdles we have had tinctively Australian in this heartening pat­ to overcome in the housing field in New tern. This has been much more evident in South Wales arose from Labor's prolonga­ some States than in others, but especially in tion of the life of State landlordism after New South Wales. Not even the disastrous World War II. The continual perpetuation remarks not long ago of the federal Trea­ of inflexible rent and tenancy controls in surer, the Hon. Frank Crean, when he criti­ New South Wales long after their wartime cized the financial housekeeping of the need was justified had a brutal effect in building societies, have succeeded to terms of deterring private investment hous­ dampen-though they did temporarily-the ing for rental. Though other States took off upsurge of the societies. The plain fact is this wartime control relatively soon after that during 1972-73 the major permanent World War II, a socialist administration in building societies in New South Wales pro­ this Parliament clamped them on and main­ vided home loans totalling $339 million for tained them for decade after decade, ex­ 22,000 homeseekers. Every homeseeker cluding private rental investment in the who gets a home in this way will have a housing field. home that is distinctively his own, a citadel of privacy for his own family, a home he It was only through slow introduction and will own, and not a socialist concept owned enlargement of the section SA lease concept by the State-not even the more limited that private investment in building for rental concept of perpetual leasehold that applies ultimately came back. Of course it comes with the Labor Party in Canberra. back hesitantly when one hears the Deputy Leader of the Opposition's evasive reply The twenty-nine member societies linked to my question whether Labor policy in with the Permanent Building Societies Asso­ this State is the reinforcement of rigorous ciation can be proud of their achievements full-scale rent and tenancy controls. Can during the 1972-73 financial year. The anybody securely put large sums of money ·Combined assets of the industry increased by into rental housing if there is ~threat that $286 million, an increase of 33 per cent, a State Labor government could assume to an all-time peak of $1,143 million. The power and reimpose the full rigor of rent . net gain of new investment funds totalled and tenancy controls of the type that have $230 million during the year, and the num­ been such a blemish on the history of this ber of investors in the permanent building State ever since the wartime years? Mr Cameron] Housing Crisis [11 SEPT., 1973] and Land Prices 715 In New South Wales as well as throughout In 1950, when I was receiving a wage the rest of Australia then~ is a highly com­ equivalent to $20 a week I had a three­ petitive building industry which satisfies bedroom timber home built for £2,000, or basically the effective demand for housing $4,000. The cost represented approximately within our community. However, there are four times my annual wages. A similar home substantial cost problems and other signifi­ built today would cost about $15,000 which cant problems throughout the area. Although would be approximately four times the honourable members on the opposite side $4,000 a year equivalent in purchasing of the House never recognize it, part of the power of what $20 a week was in 1950. cost problem is due to the fact that the However, there is an enormous difference average house has become, in my view, too in repayments'. In 1950 the maximum hous­ large, too elaborate and too pretentious. ing loan interest rate was 4 per cent and Of course, immediately this is said the hon­ repayments were usually over a 25-year ourable member for Kogarah goes into his period. So repayments, on a $4,000 loan routine. Housing has its clearest parallel amounted to $242 a year-one-quarter of in the motor car. When that great Austra­ an income of $1,000 a year. At present lian family car, the Holden, was first intro­ savings bank loans are difficult to obtain. duced it was an extremely simple vehicle, The Commonwealth Bank limit for a home but over the years it became more and more loan is $12,500 which attracts an interest elaborate and expensive, until now there is rate of 6t per cent. Repayments at this rate a movement back to cars of the self-same would amount to $17 a month on every concept as the original Holden. Something $1,000 borrowed. If a loan is up to $17,500, similar has happened to houses; they have the rate of interest is, 7 t per cent. In fact become more and more elaborate and more many prospective purchasers must borrow and more expensive. This is part of the from a building society whose rates can be problem associated with housing. I should as high as· 8 or 9 per cent. One of the like to present to the House an enormous lowest building society loan rates is to be range of other matters in an analysis of this found with the Illawarra Mutual Building great and serious social problem but they Society, which charges' 7t per cent. A loan will have to await another occasion. of $15,000 over a 25-year period would Mr PETERSEN (IIlawarra) [4.44]: I sup­ require a payment of $1,436 a year-more port the contention of my colleague the than one-third of the wages of a worker honourable member for Kogarah that the receiving $4,000 a year, so that the repay­ Government has failed to take positive steps ments on an equivalent home which previ­ to deal with the housing crisis in New South ously accounted for less than one-quarter Wales. Nowhere is this more evident than of the worker's income now amount to more than one-third. However, this- does in the present phenomena of spiralling land not tell the full story. Permanent building prices and the inability of the New South societies- invariably require borrowers to in­ Wales Housing Commission to meet the sure their loan as well as their lives and needs of homeless families in this State. I property, and to pay valuation and inspec­ should like to suggest three major factors in tion fees far beyond those charged by sav­ the cost of housing: the price of land, the ings banks. cost of housing construction, and loan in­ A particularly galling imposition is the terest rates. Of those three elements, the requirement that fire insurance be taken one that has shown the least variation over out with a company of the building society's the years is the cost of housing construction. choice. For example, the Illawarra Mutual In spite of the recent extortionate increases Building Society requires borrowers to in­ in building material costs, the relationship sure. with the Royal Insurance Company, of housing costs to wages is probably much which charges premiums approximately the same as it was twenty years ago. Twelve double those fixed by the Government In­ or eighteen months ago the position was surance Office. I have in my posession a even better. letter dated 11th January; 1973, from the · 716 Housing Crisis [ASSEMBLY] and Land Prices Minister for Housing and Minister for Co­ need price control without wage control so operative Societies that verifies the Govern­ that workers' wages can have a chance to ment's endorsement of this policy. As build­ catch up with prices. What is the real price ing societies lend only on 85 per cent of of a block of land? If one were to listen their valuation of a property, many pur­ to the developers, they would have one be­ chasers must obtain money elsewhere. lieve that it is all due to over-high standards The ordinary purchaser requires $3,000 to being imposed by councils and planning $5,000 deposit. Most honourable members authorities. One must not forget also that would be aware that many young couples the Minister for Labour and Industry and are forced to take out second mortgages the honourable member for Northcott have with finance companies at rates up to 12 told us that houses are too dear because the per cent flat, or 23 per cent actual. Further, people require homes of too high a stan­ most honourable members know that insur­ dard. In 1972 at an annual meeting, Mr ance companies charge 10 per cent and Alan Vogen, the president of the Institute require purchasers to take out expensive of Real Estate Development referred to what insurance policies. Obviously we should do he called the ridiculous requirements by a great deal now to encourage the activities local councils as the reason for spiralling of terminating building societies with low land prices. Mr Vogen said: interest rates. Councils must be forced to act rationally and logically in the field of development. They It is exasperating to find that increased must realize that not everybody can afford the efficiency in building techniques has been same standards. of no cost benefit to most purchasers. In a letter he wrote to the Australian on Largely as a result of the efforts of build­ 24th August of last year in reply to a state­ ing workers themselves, in recent years ment I had made in this House, Mr Erwin the industry has become more efficient. Graf of Stocks and Holdings Limited However, that reduction in cost has not blamed high land prices on market con­ been passed on to the home purchaser, be­ ditions. He absolved the developers of all cause, first, increases in interest costs have blame and said that the cost of land is de­ swallowed them up and, second, land prices rived from the price paid to the various have increased far beyond any reduction land owners for the broad acres, the cost in housing costs. Undoubtedly the price of providing roads, drainage and other ser­ now being charged by land developers for vices and the payments to be made to local housing land represents blatant, rampant government authorities. Let me suggest that theft. It would be hopeless to expect the Mr Graf is tampering with the truth. Hon­ Liberal-Country party Government to do ourable members might get some idea of anything about it, particularly when one the real cost of land development if they bears in mind that the Government has a read the Sydney Morning Herald of 18th Minister for Local Government who advised August of this year and note that the Scone this House on 22nd August, 1972, that he shire council has developed an estate of was proud to admit that some of these forty-five blocks that it is selling for $1,200 developers were friends of his and would a block. Services are provided and sewer­ remain so for ever. The most obvious fea­ age is planned soon. Those blocks are ture about land prices is that they bear double the size of ordinary home blocks. absolutely no relation to cost. When the Obviously the major factor in this develop­ honourable member for Northcott informs ment is the cheap price of the land but, the House that inflation is caused by low equally obviously, the real cost of develop­ rates of productivity he might refer to the ment of a block of land in terms of labour example of land prices. and material costs is no more than $1 ,200 Land prices exemplify, in the same way a block. as meat prices do, that wages have nothing Consider the cost of land development in to do with prices. Inflation is caused solely the Wollongong area by the Housing Com­ by the capitalist class in pursuit of its con­ mission. Sewered land at Bellambi, in the stant aim of maximization of profit. We Corrimal electorate north of Wollongong, Mr Petersen] Housing Crisis [11 SEPT., 1973] and Land Prices 717 cost the Housing Commission $2,300 a months. That was the position explained to block. That is a higher figure than it would me yesterday by a constituent. What otherwise have been because the Housing was overlooked was that her husband had Commission was required to pay an in­ been working twelve hours a day, seven flated price for the open space land on days a week to earn an amount of $7,000 in which the estate was built. In other estates twelve months. A proposition was put for­ now being developed the cost will be from ward by the Minister for Local Govern­ $2,500 to $2,800 a block, with all services ment, as reported in the Sydney Morning provided. The land on which these estates Herald on 29th November, 1972, that are being built was acquired before the cur­ tenants occupying homes too large for the rent land price spiral, with all its greedy family complement should be moved to viciousness. The last major acquisition by smaller homes-it did not matter what the Housing Commission in the Wollon­ those families had put into their homes gong area was of 1 ,250 acres that was pur­ over the years. It is the old story: if faced chased from Broken Hill Proprietary Com­ with any crisis, kick the workers in the pany Limited in the Shellharbour-Warilla teeth but do not tackle the people who are area for $750 an acre. I would be the last really responsible for the crisis, the land to accuse Broken Hill Proprietary Company sharks. Limited of altruism; obviously that organi­ Let me give an example of how they zation wants the Housing Commission to work in the Wollongong area. Fender Man­ build houses so that workers will stay in agement has a development in the Albion their jobs. But if Broken Hill Proprietary Park area known as Nob Hill, about 15 Company Limited can sell land to the miles south of Wollongong. In October, Housing Commission for $750 an acre, why 1972, the Shellharbour council approved in cannot the State Government use its re­ principle development of 295 lots subject to sumption powers to acquire any land it a certificate of availability of water from wants at that price instead of paying incred­ the water board and subject to the coun­ ible sums such as $30,000 an acre for the cil's tree preservation order. This, by the land it bought at Lurnea in 1971? way, has not stopped the developers from I am speaking in this debate because I bulldozing most of the trees in the area. am extremely concerned at what is hap­ The developers still have not submitted the pening now and what will happen in the water board certificate or the development future unless the land sharks are put out of plan to the council nor have they received business and the cost of land is reduced to a guarantees for the provision of electricity reasonable figure. In the Wollongong area supply from the Electricity Commission or there is fortunately quite a reserve of Hous­ telephone connections from the Postmaster­ ing Commission land but what will happen General's Department. The development when that reserve goes? A further point to plan is available to the firm's salesmen who, bear in mind is that as land prices escalate at 28th August, 1973, had sold 119 of 311 workers who would, in other circumstances, lots at prices ranging from $10,500 to buy or build their own homes are forced to $14,000. seek Housing Commission accommodation. Honourable members will note that the The Government's answer is the old one of developer fudged sixteen lots on the de­ reducing the waiting list by applying a new velopment plan that had been approved in means test. We have the words of the Pre­ principle. In the lllawarra Mercury of 28th mier and Treasurer, reported in the Sydney August, 1973, the company stated that it Morning Herald of 26th July, 1972, that he paid $1 million for seventy-four acres, an believes that there are too many people on average of $13,500 an acre, and that it the waiting list and that people who can intended to spend $1 million on providing get money from building societies should roads, kerbing and guttering, an average of be purged. The suggestion was that some $3,000 a block. If honourable members of them should be purged as they had compare that figure with the $1,200 that earned more than $5,000 in the past twelve it cost the Scone shire council, it is obvious 718 Housing Crisis [ASSEMBLY] and Land Prices that the firm is lying. It is equally obvious sewerage scheme with effluent flowing into that it is using purchasers' moneys to fin­ Lake Illawarra, a proposition that excites ance the development out of the 10 per the horror of anyone with any knowledge cent deposit the purchasers pay. When my of pollution and seaboard lakes. These are colleague the honourable member for Cor­ just a few examples of speculators wanting rima! rang Shellharbour council on behalf to make a killing in the Shellharbour area. of a constituent who was dealing with this The Minister is obviously perfectly well company he was told that the shire engineer aware of these matters. It can safely be also was concerned with the questionable said that in the Wollongong and Shellhar­ practices of this company. Somebody in bour council areas every acre which will the council must be friendly with someone be rezoned residential in the next twenty in the company because within forty-eight years, apart from 1 ,250 acres held by the hours a telephone call was received from Housing Commission, is now held by some the managing director of ·the company, developer seeking an easy tax-free quid and squaring off. whose sole interest is in pushing prices up The matter of controlling the developers to the maximum. Unless something is done in the Wollongong area needs urgent con­ now, when the current reserve of 1,250 sideration because the Illawarra town plan acres of Housing Commission land has been will be released in the near future and de­ used the Housing Commission will be forced velopers are sitting on thousands of acres to pay $30,000 an acre or more as was waiting for rezoning so that they can make done at Lurnea. This position is repeated unearned fortunes. Immediately south of throughout the whole of the Newcastle, Shellharbour, Imperial Chemical Industries Sydney and Wollongong areas. No wonder is sitting on about 1,000 acres. It is Mr Bourke of the Housing Commission said rumoured that the company intends to build he was sick with worry at the prospect. I an oil refinery. West of Shellharbour Road pay tribute to Labor aldermen of the Shell­ between Barrack Heights and Shellharbour harbour council whose caucus has requested and adjoining the 1,250 acres held by the the federal Minister for Urban and Regional Housing Commission a firm known as Toroc Development to intervene and to resume Developments owns 200 acres at $750 an most of the non-urban land in the muni­ acre, worth $150,000. Immediately it is cipality. rezoned as residential land it will be worth $7 million. Why should these people be If honourable members want action taken given a free gift of millions of dollars? Why to reduce the price of land, there is only does not the Government resume the land one possible course. I should have liked now at the price paid to Broken Hill Pro­ the honourable member for Northcott to prietary Company Limited for the adjoin­ have been in the Chamber and to have ing land and make it available to genuine heard my remarks. Town planning is totally home builders? incompatible with capitalist market develop­ ment of land. What town planning does Similarly. a firm called Giovin Pastoral in an expanding economy is to create an Company owns 120 acres south of Shell­ harbour fronting Tongara Road. At Albion artificial land shortage that is exploited by Park Rail a real estate agent named Cole­ the developers to charge excessive prices. man is sitting on 1 00 acres southwest of As the Australian of 7th September reports, Princes Highway. Mr Coleman is notorious the process has created more than 100 for developing his estates a little at a time. millionaires in New South Wales. In the At present he is on stage ten of a develop­ Australian of lOth September, 1973, it is ment known as Green Meadows. At Albion suggested that any move to curb the robber Park, Willmore & Randall Proprietary Lim­ barons, as the Labor Government of South ited holds 300 acres adjacent to the pro­ Australia is doing, will be met by a dirty, posed subdivision that is sold under the vicious campaign similar to that being name of Fender Management. It is asking waged against the South Australian Labor now for approval to be given to a package Government, employing all the resources of Mr Petersen] Housing Crisis [11 SEPT., 1973] and Land Prices 719

public relations to allege that the interests Alderma~ Ray Clay, a real estate agent, of the people are identical with the interests succe~sfully moved that the council support of Sir Leslie Hooker and Sir Paul Strasser. rezomng of vast areas of occupied land near the .beach and Lake Illawarra for high­ I suggest that the solution to the problem density flat development. His moHon was I have outlined was expressed in a joint carried on the casting vote of the then statement by the federal and New South mayor, Alderman Keith Grey, another real Wales Labor parties last November, and estate agent. Despite the secrecy of the meet­ that was that the Government should ings, about which I knew nothing, I received acquire land prior to rezoning and dispose numerous complaints from residents of the of it at cost of acquisition and development. areas ~n question that real estate agents were As a rider, I suggest that in accordance with pestermg them to sell their properties. The the policy of the New South Wales branch resultant furore made council backtrack and of the Australian Labor Party, as adopted cancel the proposal. The law of libel pre­ at the State Conference in June, 1973, the v~~ted me from stating publicly my sus­ Valuer-General should be told that the value piciOns as to who had leaked the inform­ of land for acquisition purposes should be ation, but the names of Aldermen Grey and based on present usage, and not on what Clay are high on the list of suspects. developers have paid for it in expectation of super profits. W ollongong council possesses its own very wealthy land developer in the person of If I have any criticism at all of the federal Alderman Frank Arkell, who can well afford Government on this score, it is that the fed­ the thousands of dollars he throws around eral Government has been too mild in chal­ each electio~ time as if money were going lenging the New South Wales Liberal­ out of fashiOn. Recently I spoke in this Country party Government on its protection House on how he held up the road work of land racketeers. From the press statement known as Masters Road diversion for issued by the Hon. Tom Uren on 28th Aug­ several years in the interests of making more ust, 1973, it is apparent that this State is money out of thirty acres of non-urban land dragging its feet on the Commonwealth's that he owned. He was aided by the Govern­ proposition for the setting up of land com­ ~ent, which refused to exercise its resump­ missions to buy land for development. Hav­ tion power to acquire seventeen acres for ing heard the honourable member for North­ $43,000. Alderman Arkell finally got the cott in this debate, I can well understand Government to agree to build a costly road why that should be so. Soon the people of into t~e thirteen .acres, and he got the State this State will be calling the Government to P.lanmng Authonty, contrary to every prin­ account, and one of the major reasons wh} Ciple of town planning, to rezone the area they will do so will be the Government's as light industrial-thus making him a protecNon of land sharks. present of about a quarter of a million Let me make one point clear: too many dollars. people in local government in New South I have had reason to deal with some Wales are interested in making money from residents of Dapto in my electorate and in real-estate deals, and are unable to recognize his ward, who were concerned that a fellow any conflict between their private and public developer named McPhail was seeking ap­ interests. It was amazing to read a report proval to build ninety-three flats and twenty­ in the Kiama Independent of 25th August, 1972, that the independent majority on five town houses on 5t acres of land in a Shellharbour council had ruled that there new residential area served by narrow was nothing wrong with a prominent sub­ streets, which would be a traffic disaster. divider using the same firm of solicitors as At a public meeting on Sunday, 19th the council. August, Alderman Arkell admitted that he More serious were events that flowed from and the developer had known about the two quite correctly held secret meetings of project for four years. Needless to say, this council on 26th January, 1972, and 16th neither he nor the developer had told this ' February, 1972. At the second meeting to the purchasers of land in the area when 720 Housing Crisis [ASSEMBLY] and Land Prices they were selling land as single house allot­ Take these phrases from the 1971-72 an­ ments. It is impossible to resist the con­ nual report of the Housing Commission of clusion that Alderman Arkell and Mr Mc­ New South Wales, presented to this House Phail had worked together, not in the in­ on 22nd November, 1972: terests of the people in the area, but in the . . . completions for next year must be at a financial interests of Mr McPhail. considerably reduced level. This low level of building activity reflects increased costs gen­ With the State Government and too many erally and the need to invest a much higher aldermen in local government combining to proportion of funds in forward land acquisi­ tions. The major factor involved was the rapid . force land prices up, it is no wonder that change in land availability at acceptable cost. the position has now reached crisis level. And again: The Government knows this full well. It is now almost fifteen months since Mr J. M. The fact that the plan-- Bourke, chairman of the Housing Commis­ That is the Sydney region outline plan. sion of New South Wales, said publicly on --identified in broad outline, areas which would become available for development to lOth July, 1972, that he was sick with the year 2000 A.D. has, to a considerable worry at the way land prices were sky­ extent, allowed speculators as well as genuine rocketing to take accommodation beyond developers to pursue massive programmes of land acquisition with relatively little difficulty the reach of the low-income earner. The in obtaining financial backing. The conse­ then Minister for Housing and Minister for quence is that in an already grave situation the Commission continues to meet increasing Co-operative Societies immediately said that competition from investors and speculators he would recommend to State Cabinet the alike in its endeavours to acquire suitable land at economic prices for public housing pur­ large-scale resumption of land for public poses. Land, as a scarce commodity, partict<­ housing. The Cabinet obviously believes larly in large parcels, will become even more difficult to obtain at a price which will enable that it is more important to protect the the Commission to provide housing for low profits of Sir Leslie Hooker and his mates and moderate-income earners. than it is to provide cheap land, for hon­ I should like to invite the attention of hon­ ourable members have heard no more of ourable members to this extract from the these large-scale resumptions. report in particular: It could be that an effective way of mod­ Mr CRABTREE: The Government ar­ erating the rate of increase in land prices is ranged for the Minister to retire. by the entry of the State Government into the land market on a meaningful scale by acquir­ Mr PETERSEN: That was obvious. Nor ing land before it gains nrban potential and either selling or leasing it to developers or final have we heard any more of the advice given consumers. The Government's own needs for to this House on 22nd August, 1972, by public housing projects would also be safe­ guarded in this manner. the Deputy Premier, Minister for Local Government and Minister for Highways, I emphasize that. It is exactly what the that he was looking at the possibility of Labor Party advocated:, and what was freezing the prices of metropolitan non­ adopted by the State congress of the party urban land and acquiring it as finance per­ last June. We advocated that the State mitted. Obviously, what the Government Planning Authority should have power to is hoping is that the problem will disap­ acquire land at prices' applicable to usage pear; that nobody will kick up a fuss. My before rezoning, and that no building take prime purpose in speaking in this debate is place until all social amenities and utilities to disabuse the Government of this con­ were provided. Further, we condemned the cept. Whether the Government likes it or present iniquitous system of Crown land not, it must do something to curb land auctions. Our policy is to permit the release prices, and in any case a Labor government of Crown lands as household land to would do so, because the need is clear. genuine homebuilders. Let me quote to Housing Crisis [11 SEPT., 1973] and Land Prices 721 the House from the federal policy of the Government and Minister for Highways Labor Party on land development. It is as ever to adopt any such scheme. Apart from follows: the Minister's personal friendship with land 1. The establishment by bilateral agreements developers, the whole philosophical concept with the States and the supervision of Austra­ on which the Country Party is based is that lian and State land commissions. These com­ the owners of property have the right to missions will acquire land for urban develop­ extract the maximum possible profit, which ment, rehabilitation, open space and other special uses. is why Mr P. D. Day was· compelled to 2. The development of such land generally resign from the Department of Decentralisa­ by development corporations with planning, tion and Development. programming and construction functions. We all remember how the former Liberal­ 3. The disposal of such land on a leasehold basis except in exceptional circumstances. Country party coalition Government in Can­ berra destroyed the egalitarian Canberra Thanks to the way in which land sharks leasehold system by making leaseholds sale­ have consistently interposed themselves be­ able as if they were freehold. On 2nd Sep­ tween land users and the Government, tember the former Country Party Minister people no longer know that the world allot­ for the Interior, the Hon. R. J. D. Hunt, ment once meant exactly that-an allotment had the gall to blame the Australian Labor of land from the Crown to an occupier Government for the increase in Canberra on which to build a cottage. Why should land prices for which the policies of his anybody have to buy land? This was the former Government were directly respon­ question raised by the honourable member sible. Then, speaking on behalf of every for Kogarah. I particularly like the senti­ land shark in Australia, he urged that the ment expressed in a hymn used by the State governments should on no account be Christian Socialist Movement entitled "God cajoled or bribed into co-operating with the is the Only Landlord". It begins: Australian Labor Government to control God is the only landlord urban development. To whom our rents are due, He made the earth for all men, I represent an area in which 2,500 families And not for just a few; are on the Housing Commission's waiting The four parts of creation, list. Some have been wa·iting for up to two Earth, water, air and fire, and a half years, even with the application God made, and bless'd and stationed For every man's desire. of harsh income means tests which have purged an unknown number of applicants Mr CRABTREE: There is nothing wrong from the list for having committed the crime with that, is there? of working large amounts of overtime in Mr PETERSEN: Nothing wrong at all. order to buy furniture for their homes. Un­ Why should not the Government allot land doubtedly, that list will grow as the land to genuine homebuilders and simply require spiral continues, encouraged as it is by the them to pay rent to cover the cost of essen­ New South Wales Liberal-Country party coalition Government in the interests of tial services? More and more people are private enterprise. Even so, with the total coming to realize that the concept of land cost of land and a house at between $14,000 ownership for freehold household land is and $15,000 and Housing Commission in­ ridiculous. All honourable members re­ terest rates at 5 t per cent, the amount ceived the excellent submission of the Com­ which tenants are required to pay for Hous­ monwealth Bank Officer's Association dated ing Commission homes is now nearly $23.50 November, 1972, in which there is advo­ a week--considerably in excess of the one­ fifth of weekly income, which is Housing cated the extension of suburban holdings Commission policy. with holders paying rent at 2! per cent of capital value at the time of allotment and Another area which I represent contains a large number of people who are dependent the extension of the concept on an integrated upon the Housing Commission. They are community basis. Of course, I do not ex­ migrants who have come to the area both pect the Deputy Premier, Minister for Local from within and outside Australia. Let us 46 922 Education [ASSEMBLY} (Amendment) Bill take, for example, the situation in which a M;r ~· R ~-~q.. Y: There is no light on. steel wo~ker,.ori an ave_rage weekly wage <;Jf between $63 and $85, finds himself. Per­ Mr JACKSON: There was no warning light haps 'he is married with two children and at all. ~at sox:_t_ of rules are th~s~? his'take-home pay is between $57-and- $72 Mr DEPU'I;Y-SPEAKEB,: O~;derl I call ~he a· week. He might live in a hostel where honpura9le member f.or l,Iea_thcote to o~;der t~e average 'stay is 'eighteen week,s. and dur:­ for the first time for gross disorder. The ing that tiine he pays'between $29 and· $32 honourable mt:mber's time has expired, I a: week board, , I regret that the wat;ning light did not show Where is that migrant likely to get $3,000 but I have just. resumed the Chair. to $5;ooo deposit necessary to buy a house through private enterprise? I appreciate why Mr JA<;:~spN: Mr Deputy-Speaker, I move these people qo not want a prolonged stay that the honourable member's time be ex­ in hostels. They are not the best places in tended for a_ period of five minutes. which to live and rear a family, despite the Mr. D~P.UTY:-SPEA;KER: Order! Will the facilities. they offer. This steel worker looks honol,Jrable member for. Heathcote piease around for a two-bedroom house in the Wol­ resume ms seat. ' longong area. In 1972 the average rent for such a house was $24.69 a week and accord­ Mr, JA~KSON: I, can move that. in'g to statistics that rent increases at the rate of 7 per cent yearly. That worker, paying Mr DEPUTY-SPEAK;ER: Order! The board or rent at the rate of $27 a week from l)onour<~;ble l)le!llb~r G?nnot, mqve anything his. wage of.. $57 has not much left on which w_hile I am on my feet. I call the honour­ to feed· his family and pay' for transport able member for Heathcote tq order for the ~osts: ·'- M!grant families 'ma~e -- incredible second· time for gros~ disorder. The ques­ efforts and suffer severe privations in or~er tion is, ( 1) That in the opinion of this to obtain their own home.- They double-up House the New South Wales Government in. accommodation with. other families. One has failed to ta~e_ positive st~ps to de_al with street. in Cring.Ua in my electorate has. as the housing crisis in New South Wales; and many as. nine or. ten, persons in each, dwel­ (2) This House,expresses concern.regarding ling. and; I understand that thl,s applies to spiralling land prices and the inability of several other streets too. The conclusions the New ·south Wales H-ousing Commission drawn, from a. survey made recently by a to meet the needs of homeless fam-ilies in lecturer. in. ec.onom~<;s at the Wollongong this. State. University were. as follows: Mr JACKSON: 1\:lr De~uty-Speaker, in The single income migrant family, if the view of the fact that owing to an over­ male 'is at- lhe lowest wage level, is "at 'risk" throughout .its early. years in Wollongong. Bud­ sight the warning light was not shown, the g~ts _·are o~ten so fine~y, balanced that anY, pro­ honourable member £or Illawarra did, not longed illness, or penod of_ uneJilr.loyment, or have. the opportunity to- conclude- his unforeseen expenditure, can bring· the family address. Therefore, 1: move: to disaster. Even if such a family rents, they are_' heavily committed. However, if. they That the honourable member for Illawarra, accept second mortgage commitments to buy a Mr Petersen, be allowed to continue his spe~ch home they are in a very hazardous position for a fu,rther period of ten minutes. during the period required to pay off the second mortgage. Motion agree.d to. It is _for that reason that these, people. are Mr PETERSEN: I thank the House dependent upon Housing Commission for the courtesy shown to me. I was deal­ accommodation. The tragic situation that has ing with the question of housing available ar-isen is that land is. being priced far beyond to migrants, who constitute the major por­ the reac):l of the average 'worker, let alon.e tion of residents of my electorate and I the migrant factory worker-- had referred to the difficulties that they encounter. In fact,. the. difficulties that Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! The hon­ migrants in my electorate. encounter are not ourable member's time has expired. so much greater- than those faced by Mr Petersen] HO'flsing Crisis [11 SEPT~, 1973] and Land Prices 723 workers elsewhere. The general practice is a rent of 2t per cent of its value at the that they are forced to take private accom­ date of allocation, and should not be sub­ modation in the private sector-a system ject to reappraisal, as is carried out under which leaves a great deal to be desired. this Government in New South Wales, forc­ Therefore overcrowding occurs in areas that ing the price of freehold land to excessive do not offer the facilities which one expects levels. to be available in older areas. I should like to quote from a report made by the Wol­ Mr COWAN: And the same with farm­ longong health surveyor on 30th May, 1972, land, I take it? referring to migrants living at Cringila: Mr PETERSEN: I am not talking about The great majority of these people are thriftv farmland. I am talking about household and hardworking and are struggling to estab­ lish themselves in a new land with widely dif­ land. It is one of the great tragedies of fering standards of living and housing from our society as in any other capitalist society, their countries of origin. In many instances that only one city is allowed to be de­ the desire to acquire sufficient financial re­ veloped on a rational, logical basis. Can­ sources to reach the degree of affluence enjoyed by Australians together with an ignorance and berra is the only city that has been allowed lack of appreciation of our housing standards, to be built for a community of people. In leads migrants to exploit the housing needs all other cities where people come to live of their compatriots. . . . The conclusions they are delivered to the mercy of land to be drawn from the survey are that in cer­ tain streets overcrowding is occurring and speculators, subdividers and land sharks. It public health problems are at dangerous levels. is because we believe that there should be something better than this-and there will When the honourable member for North­ be-that the honourable member for Kog­ cott preached in abstract terms of ensuring arah moved his motion today, and I give private ownership of land he failed to realize it my wholehearted support. what this means. In fact, the people about whom I have been speaking want housing Mr BRUXNER (Minister for Housing and accommodation. They follow a con­ and Minister for Co-operative Societies) cept that they have to own their own block [5.20]: This. motion is of the utmost im­ of land. They are not legally forced to do portance to the House, and indeed to all so but they do so because it is the only way members of the community. It being pri­ in which they can build a home and come vate members day, this is the forum in together as a family. I should like to sug­ which motions such as this are brought for­ gest that we have learned a great deal as ward. This afternoon I was disappointed a result of what has happened in Canberra with the honourable member for Kogarah, where for many years all the land was who leads in this House on behalf of the Opposition on matters relating to housing. owned by the Commonwealth Government I do not think the honourable member was and housing was regarded essentially as a feeling 100 per cent; he is suffering from a public service. That is what the Opposition heavy cold and he did not have his cus­ in this State is looking for. tomary vigour when delivering his' argu­ ment in support of the motion. While the Mr MACKIE: What has happened to the honourable member for Kogarah was speak­ price of land in Canberra now? ing this afternoon I did two things that I rarely do in this House: I made two inter­ Mr PETERSEN: The price of land in jections, and I apologize to the honourable Canberra has reached excessive heights be­ member for that discourtesy. On the first cause leaseholds have been treated as free­ occasion I interjected in reply to a state­ holds under a policy instituted by the former ment the honourable member for Kogarah Liberal-Country party Government. That made to the effect that there was ~orne is a policy to which the Labor Party objects. difference of opinion or an unfriendly feel­ Leaseholds should not be made into free­ ing between Mr Bourke, Chairman of the holds. Land should be made available to Housing Commission and myself. I refute those who want it as suburban holdings with that suggestion completely. I am proud to 724 Housing Crisis [ASSEMBLY] and Land Prices say that since I took office in January my in the future and give evidence that I have personal and official relations with Mr had some crooked dealings with land Bourke have been of the happiest nature. owners or forever hold his peace. At the moment, Mr Bourke is overseas en­ Before I refer to some of the matters that joying a spell of well-earned leave, and I have been brought forward in this debate, I look forward to working with him on his shall answer some specific questions posed return to Australia. by the honourable member for Kogarah and The second occas·ion on which I inter­ the honourable member for Illawarra, and jected was, when the honourable member I propose to deal with them in turn. The for Kogarah suggested that I had some per­ honourable member for Kogarah challenged sonal relationship with Mr Dusseldorp and me to tell the House what type of negotia­ other well-known land developers. I repeat tions took place with an honourable member my statement that I made by way of inter­ in another place--and I shall name him, jection then: these gentlemen are not though the honourable member for Kogarah known to me personally, and I would not did not-the Hon. F. Calabro, and the price know Mr Dusseldorp if he walked into the he was paid for the property he owned at House this afternoon. I do not think the Bonnyrigg and in respect of which the hon­ honourable member for Kogarab meant ourable member for Kogarah suggests that what he said when he tried to get down there were some improper dealings. I wish into the mud-and he used the word mud, to tell the honourable member and the himself-by suggesting that my predecessor House that the property owned by the Hon. and good friend, the Hon. S. T. Stephens F. Calabro and his brother was acquired was removed from office because of some by way of resumption-the type of action breath of scandal. Mr Stephens was well the honourable member for Kogarah has known in this House and in the community so often urged me to take. No private for many years, and it ill behoves the hon­ negotiations took place, and as the comple­ ourable member for Kogarah to get down tion of the resumption under the Valuer­ to those depths in this debate. If the hon­ General's valuation has not yet been com­ ourable member wants to suggest that there pleted, I am unable to give details of the i!i any breath of the same sort of scandal price. However, the details will obviously around me, he had better come in here with be available later to the honourable member some facts; and if he does• not want to come if he wishes. in here with facts he had better see me The second question the honourable outside with them. I am getting rather tired member for Kogarah asked me was what of the honourable member for Kogarah-- happened to the land the Government ac­ [lnterruption] quired at Menai, did not use for housing purposes and then offered for the establish­ Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! I call the ment of an oil refinery. I answer that ques­ honourable member for Kogarah to order tion by saying that the land which the Gov­ for the first time. ernment intended to use for housing at Mr BRUXNER: --suggesting that Menai was not the land on which the oil there is some dirtiness about me and my refinery has been proposed to be estab­ portfolio. I have lived in the political world lished; it is some considerable distance for a long time and I do not mind giving away. The reason why the Government did it and taking it, when we have a full­ not proceed at Menai has been made pub­ scale, vigorous debate. I am prepared to lic; it was made public last October when debate the issue of housing with the hon­ the proclamation was lifted. A public state­ ourable member for Kogarah and his col­ ment was made on that occasion, and I 'leagues, but I think we can do it without referred to the matter in a previous debate getting down to sneering suggestions. I in the House. There is no suggestion that would like the honourable member for it is the same land as that which is under Kogarah either to stand up here one day consideration for the establishment of an !fousing Cris!-f [11 SEPT., 1973] a,d Land Price~ 725 oil refinery. The third question the hon­ in June, and tonight I shall be introducing ourable member for Kogarah asked me was in the House legislation to ratify the Com­ why it is that the Housing Commission is monwealth Act. What I said about not unable to obtain tenders for all its projects. having information from the federal Min­ At this short notice I could not possibly ister for Housing was: give the honourable member the details. We have heard that the federal Government Hundreds of projects are being submitted intends to provide some emergency fiat-type to tender. accommodation in Commonwealth hostels. I have expressed the Government's interest in However, I can tell the honourable mem­ this scheme: I am still awaiting details of it. ber for Kogarah the main reason why ten­ We have heard also that the Minister for Urban and Regional Development would assist ders are not being received-and it is the in the taking over of church land at Glebe. reason given to me by the building contrac­ I advised the Hon. Thomas Uren that I was tors. The building industry is in a parlous deeply interested in this scheme: however, not state because of the action of some trade one detail has been brought forward by the federal Government. I was informed further unionists. Mr Mundey and company, aided by both federal Ministers that they would and abetted by the members of the Labor undertake a project to provide housing for Opposition, have thrown the spanner of fear low income earners at Woolloomooloo-a pro­ into the spokes of the wheel of the building posal supported by the honourable member for King: again, not one detail has come industry in this State. If one of our pro­ forward. jects is in an area in which Mr Mundey has taken an interest, it is, naturally, hard That is my answer to the question and I to get a contractor to submit a tender price. leave it to honourable members to make up The fourth question the honourable mem­ their own minds which one of us is telling ber for Kogarah asked me was whether I the truth. could explain why I misled the House in The honourable member for Illawarra replying to a question he asked. The hon­ raised a specific question. He quoted a state­ ourable member claimed that I stated that ment by my predecessor, the Hon. S. T. I had had no information from the federal Stephens, that special funds would be made Minister for Housing when I knew full well available and action taken to acquire land. that the details of the Commonwealth-State That has been done. A special allocation of Housing Agreement had been completed. $5 million was made available through the The suggestion made by the honourabl~t State Planning Authority and every cent of member is nothing but arrant nonsense. that $5 million has been spent on land A reference to the question asked by the acquisition. The major portion of the land honourable member for Kogarah and my has been acquired by resumption. If the answer in Hansard of 22nd August shows honourable member for Illawarra doubts that I made no reference to the Common­ whether this Government is interested or wealth-State Housing Agreement. The de­ active in land acquisition, let me tell him tails of the agreement have been common that for the period from January of this knowledge, and the day Parliament resumed year until the end of the financial year next after the winter recess I tabled in this year, an amount of $20 million has been House the full transcript of all the con­ allocated for major land acquisition. This ferences leading to the drawing up of that policy of acquisition is proceeding along the agreement-an action that has never been lines that the honourable member for Koga­ taken before. I do not suppose the honour­ rah and his colleagues have stressed for so able member for Kogarah or his colleagues tong should be followed-by way of re­ have bothered to read the transcripts to sumption. What do I get in return from which I refer. They get up here and offer him and his colleagues? Every time a re­ criticism but they are not interested enough sumption is made I get representations­ in their job to know what is being done. either oral or written-from him or his col­ There is no secret about the Common­ leagues that this land should not be re­ wealth-State Housing Agreement; it was sumed. The Opposition cannot have it both approved prior to the Premiers' conference ways. 726 Housing Crisis [ASSEMBLY] and Land Prices The honourable member for Kogarah re­ Earlier this year the federal Treasurer ferred to me as a tragic Minister. There is made a most unwarranted attack on build­ nothing tragic about me but because I am ing societies. He has since admitted it. At insisting on resumption of areas of land, the a meeting he had with the executive of the title of which is held by the very persons association of permanent building societies about whom honourable members opposite he stated that he did not mean what he have spoken in this House this afternoon, I said and did not expect his statement to have am extremely unpopular. In spite of the the result that it had. Like a good boy, he answer I gave this afternoon the honourable promised not to do it again. The Treasurer, member for Kogarah had the unmitigated by that unwarranted attack on the building gall to charge that the Government is on societies, ushered in a critical period. A few the side of the land developer. I repeat the months ago, some of our major societies answer I gave to the House this afternoon. were in danger of financial collapse. That Perhaps Opposition members were making would have been equivalent to the closing so much noise that the honourable mem­ of a bank. It would have affected the small ber for Kogarah did not hear what I said. investor and the person who had borrowed I stated that as a direct result of the Prime from the society to build a home. Minister's action on revaluation two major My criticism of the Opposition's, Can­ land developers had earned increments of berra colleagues-they may deny it but it is $1 million and $650,000 on their overseas true-is that their latest action will increase investments. interest rates·. Everyone has said that. Mr DAY: That would be unintentional. Everyone has' admitted it. Sir John Phillips, governor of the Reserve Bank, admits it. Mr BRUXNER: I point out to the hon­ Let me quote two statements from the press. ourable member for Casino who has not The first is: "All home buyers will be hit been in the Chamber at any stage of this with higher interest bills", and the second: debate that I am trying to answer in a "Borrowers from a building society will reasonable fashion specific questions that have to pay 10 per cent instead of the were put to me during it. I made a note of present 8 per cent." What effect will that each one of them. I am pointing out that have on the young married couples that the honourable member for Kogarah in his honourable members opposite and Govern­ motion has attacked the Government for ment supporters are trying to assist? I am its failure to cope with housing needs. No making a genuine effort to assist them. I one is suggesting that everything in the hous­ have taken up this portfolio in a respon­ ing field is perfect. The Housing Commis­ sible fashion. The. honourable member for sion of New South Wales was first set up Kogarah casts some slur on the fact that as a postwar emergency measure. It and I am a countryman and I live in the North the Government are still trying to cater for of the State. There again, I do not see the needs of lower-income earners in the that he needed to get down to that level. community who are least able to finance I am proud of the fact that I come from themselves into a home of their own. My the North of the State and I am proud, criticism of the federal Minister in the reply to that question of 22nd August, and other also, that I am a countryman. In recent statements I have made, rests on the fact months I have done considerable work to that when the Hon. Les Johnson came to assist constituents of honourable members office at the end of last year he made a opposite and perhaps one day one of the number of statements on behalf of his new Opposition might be kind enough to say so. Government. He claimed that he was really I shall continue to do that work so long going to do something to meet the housing as I hold the portfolio. crisis. I again stress my disappointment that The Opposition's federal colleagues are he has done nothing to meet the housing not helping me when they add to the burden crisis. Indeed, he and his colleagues, by their of the people who want to borrow from a actions in the past forty-eight hours, are building society or a lending institution. deepening that crisis. More will be turned down when they seek Hou:.ing Crisis [11 SEi>1'., 1973] ahd Lnnrl Prices 727 finance and more of them will not be able would not allow me or the Housing Com­ . to meet the intere.st bill. It has been cal­ mission to put up ·another bnilding Hke that . culated that the extra cost to many borrow­ The Han. Tom Uren and the Hon. Les ers will be about $4 a week. This is a large Johnson made numerous statements' shortly sum out of a low-income earner's pocket. I after their election and they know that the have no doubt that many more people will Woolloomooloo project is a good one. They turn to the Housing Commission and seek to know, also, that the honourable member for go on its waiting list. Then one afternoon King is in favour of it. However, we can­ honourable members opposite will come not get those two federal Ministers to give here and accuse me and the Government us any information on what they are doing. of allowing the waiting list to grow. It is The Ron. Tom Uren said that he would inevitable. That is the charge I lay at the buy land from the Church of England. door of their federal colleagues' policy. The archbishop has written to us about it and we have expressed our interest in it. The Leader of the Opposition interjected To this day we have not had one detail from that he did not agree with the policy of increased interest charges. I hope to Heaven the Hon. Tom Uren, the Hon. Les' Johnson or the federal Treasurer on what is intended. that he gets to Canberra and tells the Hon. This is why I say the federal Labor Govern­ E. G. Whitlam and the Hon. Frank Crean ment is doing nothing to assist in the hous­ that he does not agree with what they are ing crisis to which one of their colleagues in doing. I hope that he does something about this House referred in today's debate. it. This is not a political matter; it is a financial matter. The honourable member Mr BREWER: They ought to ask Bob for Illawarra sang a hymn. He seemed to Hawke for his' views. be singing the whole hymn but I shall quote only the one line, "Our shelter from the Mr BRUXNER: The honourable mem­ stormy blast." That blast is coming from ber for Goulburn has reminded me of Canberra. It is cold and chill. It has come something to which I had intended to refer not from God but from Gough, who is later, but there is no time like the present. blowing the icy blast. It is not my spine For some time the Hon. Tom Uren and the alone that feels that icy chill; it is the spines Han. Les Johnson have been saying that of honourable members opposite and their they will see to it that Commonwealth land constituents who are trying to meet the in­ in and around Sydney is made available creasing demands. on their pockets. That for public building, welfare housing and is why I am critical of the federal Govern­ cheap rental homes. All those statements ment. are available for perusal and honourable members opposite have read them. The I have been critical of the federal Minis­ Hon. Les Johnson has an active press sec­ ter for Housing and I han been critical retary. I am awaiting details of the latest of the federal Treasurer. I have already statement. They know we are interested in mentioned his attack on the building it. We have offered them our co-operation societies. We have had a talk with the and staff in New South Wales, which if' Hon. Les Johnson about our project for ready on the spot. Let me read from the pensioners at Waterloo. He went out there following headline and article in the with me and was taken around. While Sydney Daily Telegraph of 8th September, 1973: having morning tea in our latest building he said, "What a beautiful building." He ACTU GETS BIG GOVERNMENT LAND OFFER had his morning tea in a room furnished Hawke tells of housing plan from the staff fund of the Housing Commis­ The Federal Government has offered the sion and thousands of dollars are already Australian Council of Trade Unions a con­ available in the next fund to go towards the siderable area of land in Sydney for housing. purchase of television sets, library books Mr Hawke gets the offer. Does one and record players. In spite of what he have to belong to the special coteries said that day, a month later he said he surrounding Mr Hawke? Must one Housing Crisis [ASSEMBLY] and Land Prices . accompany him to a swimming pool at Sur­ leave Mr Hawke out. Do not attack me fers Paradise or even go out on a surfboard for doing nothing to provide free land. to become eligible for this special land? Why could not the federal Government give Where is it? Is it some of the army land this land to the State of New South Wales? that we have been asking for? Mr Hawke might get the unexploded shells on the land Mr CRABTREE: What land? that the Commonwealth sold us at Fern Mr BRUXNER: A good question: Mr Bay in the Stockton area. We have been Hawke's land. He is the federal president trying to get an answer on that land from of the Australian Labor Party, but he was the Hon. E. G. Whitlam for nine months; speaking on this occasion with his other hat we cannot use it and we cannot let anyone on, as federal president of the Australian walk through it. That was one of the things Council of Trade Unions. in my mind when I spoke of confidence tricks being played. Mr CRABTREE: Where is the land? Mr Hawke will get the cheap land, but he has declined to say where it is or how Mr BRUXNER: I do not know but Mr many acres have been offered. In the light Hawke probably does. The honourable of this afternoon's debate this is an interest­ member should ask him where the land is. ing comment: "Mr Hawke said that the Mr DAY: You are quoting him. building firm of Lend Lease Corporation had made it clear that it wished to be asso­ Mr BRUXNER: Do you deny that it is ciated with the ACTU's housing pro­ a fact? gramme". The delegates gave the all-clear to Land Lease-one of the big developers Mr DAY: You are saying it. that members of the Opposition have been denouncing in this House-to develop our Mr BRUXNER: The federal Minister for land, as they call it. It is the people's land, Housing and his colleagues have said what Australian land, owned by the Australian they are going to do. I am answering the Government as Opposition members like charge that we are doing nothing. We in to call it, but it is not for my tenants, not the Housing Commission do nearly all our for the people on the waiting list or hoping building under the terms of the Common­ to go on the waiting list of the Housing wealth-State Housing Agreement and the Commission, not for the pensioners whom I funds are provided by the Commonwealth. am trying to help in Waterloo and Red­ Honourable members opposite denied the fern, not for the workers at Bellambi and Shellharbour, but for some mysterious last quote. Do not let them deny the next group of people on whom Mr Hawke will one, which is from a photostat copy of the put his imprimatur. Hon. E. G. Whitlam's policy speech deliv­ ered at the last federal elections. This is Mr CRABTREE: Where is the land situated? what he said about land: The land is the nation's basic resource. A Mr BRUXNER: I wonder whether it is home is usually the lar~est investment which a for those people to whom the Hon. E. G. family ever makes; it is an investment which Whitlam referred shortly after he took most families have to make. A Labor govern­ ment will have two overriding objectives: to office, when he said that federal Ministers give Australian families access to land and should get priority for housing in Canberra housing at fair prices, and to preserve and because it would allow them to live close enhance the quality of the national estate . . . to their jobs. He is lucky to have his house He is admirably preserving the quality of so close to his job that he can boast that he the national estate at Galston. However, I does not drive to work in his Mercedes as fail to see where he is providing this land he is able to walk there. Do not attack and housing at fair prices. He has given Lend Lease Homes Proprietary Limited and away free land to Mr Hawke, and he is the other developers and at the same time putting up interest rates for people on low Housing Crisis [11 SEPT., 1973] and Land Prices 729 incomes who want to save to build or buy a Mr BRUXNER: In the last financial year home. I quote from another section of the in which the Labor Government was in Prime Minister's policy speech: office, 3,513 dwellings; in the financial year Four matters have been proposed to counter just concluded, under this Government, the rising cost of housing loans: to ... liber­ 4,518 dwellings. They are the official figures alise home savings grants; ... -not secret figures taken from rues to which He liberalized them all right; he abolished the honourable member for Kogarah used them. He sat there a couple of weeks ago to refer as being unavailable to him. while his federal Treasurer put the red pen­ In the eight and a half years during which cil through them. The Whitlarn Government the Liberal-Country party Government has is denying this grant to young people who been in office in New South Wales it has would have previously qualified for this been responsible for the construction by assistance by saving under a very rigid sys­ the Housing Commission of 42,635 dwell­ tem. Members have seen the requirements. ings, whereas in the last eight and a half In my own son's bank book the words years of its term the Labor Party Govern­ "Home Savings Account" are underlined in ment was reponsible for the construction red pencil. of 33,640 dwellings. These are the figures, and figures do not lie. Mr CRABTREE: That is not true. Mr BEDFORD: What about the waiting Mr BRUXNER: It is true. Do you deny list? that the Prime Minister said he would liber­ alize home savings grants? Mr BRUXNER: I thank the honourable member for prompting me about the wait­ Mr CRABTREE: I am criticizing what the ing list. On 30th June, 1964, which was Minister said about his son's savings in the last year of the Labor Party adminis­ account. tration, 38,132 applications were on hand at the Housing Commission: on 30th June, Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! 1973, 37,720 applications were on hand. Not a great reduction, but a reduction. Mr BRUXNER: Let me quote further from the Prime Minister's speech: Mr QUINN: How many did you reject? There has been an alarming decline in State housing activity. Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! I call the honourable member for Wentworthville to Mr CRABTREE: That is true. order. Mr BRUXNER: It is true in the eyes Mr BRUXNER: Despite these figures. of the honourable member for Kogarah. I supporters of the Labor Party claim in this shall not take the figures for any more than Chamber that we have allowed the waiting the last three years of Labor administration list to get out of hand. I shall reply to the in New South Wales and the last three years that we have been in government. In 1962- honourable member for Wentworthville, and 63 the Labor Party expended for Housing in doing so I shall again speak out of Commission purposes $30,400,000; in 1963- sequence with my prepared notes. We shall 64 $32,184,000; and in 1964-65 be rejecting more applicants by 1st January $37,895,000. In contrast the Liberal­ next year because of the requirements of Country party Government expended for the new Commonwealth-State Housing Housing Commission purposes in 1971-72 Agreement. I refer honourable members to $57,460,000; in 1972-73 $64,395,000: and the transcript of the conferences, which I in this financial year it will expend have tabled. Honourable members will find $96,834,000. That is' supposed to be an there the opposition I expressed pretty for­ alarming decline l.n State housing activities. cibly when discussing this particular clause. Mr L. B. KELLY: How many houses were Indeed, I implored the federal Minister and constructed? his advisers to allow New South Wales to 730 Housing Crisis [ASSEMBLY] and Land Prices

·Continue with a flexible policy. Under the I am replying to a motion that claims rigid means test that has been imposed~ the Government has failed to do anything .and I regret to say that it will be included about housing in this State and that it failed in the bill I shall be presenting to the House to contain waiting lists and applications. tonight-we are now tied to a mathematical As the honourable member for Illawarra means test, which will exclude some appli­ referred to building societies being starved ·cants. for funds, I shall quote again from the home builders account, which is the section Mr QUINN: How many did you exclude of the Commonwealth-State Housing Agree­ iast year? ment that provides for money to be paid Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! I call the into an account for building societies in honourable member for Wentworthville to the respective States. In answer to the ·order for the second time. charges that we have starved them of funds, let me quote these interesting statistics. Mr BRUXNER: This means test will Under Labor in 1962-1963, $11,186,000 .exclude quite a .number of people we regard was allocated; in 1963-1964, $11,907,000; as highly eligible for Housing Commission in 1964-1965, $14 million. However, under accommodation. However, this provision is the Liberal-Country party Government in the bill at the insistence of the federal these figures were $26,550,000 in 1971- Minister for Housing and the federal Labor 1972, $28,650,000 in 1972-1973, and Government. $42,800,000 in 1973-1974. If that is starv­ I refer now to units for the aged-one ing for funds, I should not mind eating at of the items that has interested me most that table. These are facts that I am giving since I have taken over my portfolio. I in reply to the accusation that the Govern­ have derived the greatest pleasure from ment of New South Wales is doing nothing ·Calling at these units and meeting the aged to further building. Yet, while we are try­ tenants, as I did only last Saturday. I was ing to help the building societies, the Can­ ·delighted when opening a new block of berra colleagues of honourable members units in Dub'bo six months ago to have an opposite are determined to knock them ·elderly couple say to me, "Would you like down. They do this in quaint guises. In the to come in to see our new home?'' They Sydney Sun of 6th February the following did not call it a new unit, apartment or flat appeared: -it was "our new home". That did my Two senior Cabinet Ministers today will heart good. I want to build as many of play Santa Claus to the many thousands of these units as I can. This Government has people struggling to buy a home. They are the Treasurer, Mr Crean, and the Minister done well compared with what was for Housing, Mr Johnson. achieved by Labor administrations. As we took office in May, 1965, I shall give mem­ I hope that Santa Claus, in the guise of Mr bers opposite the benefit of a month by quot­ Crean, never comes down my chimney. In ing the figures at the end of June, 1965. any case, if he is Santa Claus all he has At that date 2,225 aged persons units had brought is a bag full of goodies for Mr ·been ·Constructed. At the end of June this Hawke and his boys, and for Common­ year we had lifted that figure to 7,090. wealth public servants. If the Common­ Surely that is not a bad record. If the wealth Government wants to contain the inflationary spiral, it should not keep federal colleagues of honourable members appointing officers to the federal depart­ ·opposite will heed our plea and pay us the ments. To interview a federal Minister in $2-for-$1 subsidy that is available to private Canberra one has to fight one's way down and charitable organizations which build a corridor of public service officials. One :homes for the aged we shall provide twice is lucky to get to a Minister's door in three­ :as many. Of course, we made the same quarters of an hour. While Mr Crean and ·criticism of the previous Government in Mr Johnson both dress up as Santa Claus Canberra. I cannot understand why this and claim that they intend to assist thous• policy has not been altered. ands of people who are struggling to buy a H ou:sing Crisis [11 SEPT., 197.3] Pay-roll Tax Bill 73l home, they do it by knocking the building Premiers' Conference. At that conference societies. The first result of this knocking New South Wales and all the other States, is that people cannot borrow from the build­ without exception, informed the Common­ ing societies, and other people are frightened wealth that they were faced with serious to put their money into them. Second, the budget problems in 1973-74. However, the homebuilders will have to pay higher interest Commonwealth was not willing to grant any rates and will be affected also by the revalu­ improvement in the existing financial ation of the dollar. People trying to build a assistance arrangements beyond an ad­ house in the country are knocked in two ditional grant of $25 million to be distri­ ways. They depend for their income on ex­ buted between all the States. This fell far port earnings, so they will lose in that short of what was needed and left the direction while, at the same time, their mort­ Premiers with no alternative whatever but gage interest is increased. to decide to increase payroll tax along the The federal Labor Government claimed lines I have indicated. that it would liberaliz~ home-savings grants, I stress that the decision of all six but it has abolished them. It announced its Premiers, regardless of their party politics, intention to allow as a deduction from tax­ was unanimous that there should be an in­ ation 100 per cent of interest paid on hous­ crease of 1 per cent. I have no doubt that ing loans. They are still fiddling with that Labor Premiers and Liberal Premiers alike one, which was half put in the Budget and regret the necessity for the increase, but then taken out again. So the story goes on. after discussion among ourselves we all Because of the indulgence of the House found it unavoidable. The amendments and the failure of the red light, the hon­ necessary to give effect to this decision are ourable member for Illawarra was allowed not extensive and full details will be given some extra time. As a result I have been at the second-reading stage. I commend the unable to complete my answer to the charges P.1otion to the House. that have been made, but I look forward to continuing this debate when next the motion Mr BANNON (Rockdale) [7.33]: The is set down on the business paper. Premier and Treasurer has outlined briefly the fact that from lst September payroll Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! It being 6 tax in New South Wales will be increased o'clock p.m., the debate is interrupted pur­ by this legislation from 3t per cent to 4t suant to Standing Order 123A. per cent. Of course, the Premier and [Mr Deputy-Speaker left the chair at 6 p.m. Treasurer swiftly turned his statements to The House resumed at 7.30 p.m.] the cry that the Commonwealth was not giving the State sufficient money to meet its PAY-ROLL TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL financial commitments. INTRODUCTION Sir RoBERT AsKIN: That is right. Sir ROBERT ASKIN (Collaroy), Premier and Treasurer '[7.30]: I move: Mr BANNON: Of course the Premier and Treasurer is renowned among the group That leave be given to bring in a bill to increase the rate of pay-roll tax payable on of State Premiers and in the financial circles taxable wages in accordance with the Pay-roll in the Commonwealth sphere for being Tax Act, 1971; for this purpose to amend that expert at crying poor mouth. The Opposition Act; and for purposes connected therewith. suggested right from the start that the The purpose of this bill is to increase the Premier and Treasurer, who is in the process rate of payroll tax on wages paid in New of preparing a budget for the 1973-74 South Wales from 3! per cent to 4t per financial year, ought to take a little more cent with effect from 1st September, 1973. note of propositions and suggestions that However, the first returns at the new rate are put to him by an Opposition which, of tax will not be due until early in October. when in government, was able to control the The introduction of this legislation flows financial status of New South Wales so that from decisions taken at the June, 1973, it retained its place as the premier State of 732 Pay-roll Tax [ASSEMBLY] (Amendment) Bill the Commonwealth. We find now that year should be given to bring in a bill. The after year deficits not only recur but also honourable member for Rockdale, who led increase. This can be attributed only to the for the Opposition, was a little wide with poor financial judgment of the Government. his remarks at this introductory stage. I The Government says that its only recourse remind the honourable member for Tam­ is to impose further taxation upon the worth, who has a keen knowledge of people. I think it is time that the Govern­ procedures in this House, that he should ment took a look at its activities and confine himself to the question whether financial policies instead of continually leave should be given. introducing legislation of the nature of the bill now before the House. I suggest that Mr CHAFFEY: I quite accept that, Mr the Premier and Treasurer, as leader of the Deputy-Speaker. I should not quibble with Liberal Party in this House, should not bow that at all. I raise the question whether this so readily to the pressures of its Country Parliament should be dealing with payroll Party coalition partner which keeps him in tax rather than endeavouring to receive a office, and should legislate to introduce a fair share of income tax. I take the point a budget for the greatest benefit of the people little further. A constitutional convention of New South Wales. was held last week and during a dinner party I assure the House that the Opposition at Kirribilli House the question arose will be having much more to say on this whether the States should take over sales legislation at the second-reading stage. At tax. One does not know in what respects the present time all I can say is that the New South Wales may have been committed. Opposition condemns the Government for I do not like the powers-that-be in Canberra its failure in the fiscal field, and for its fail­ telling the States where they get off when ure to budget adequately and to meet the they complain that they do not receive a State's needs and commitments for the fin­ ancial year from the wide financial resources fair share of income tax. available to it. Although the Commonwealth in its ivory tower in Canberra may wish to hand over Mr CHAFFEY (Tamworth) (7.36]: If I understood the Premier and Treasurer sales tax to the States, if ever there was a correctly, he stands firm on the principle that field that ought to be the prerogative of the the States should receive a fair share of Commonwealth, it is this field. It was the income tax. I ask the Premier and Treasurer States' problems in this field, such as cus­ whether that is correct. toms duties and State borders, that brought about federation, which was fathered and Sir RoBERT AsKIN: Yes, that is right. nurtured in this Chamber. If there is one Mr CHAFFEY: I thought I understood thing that ought to be the prerogative and him correctly. There is a principle involved. responsibility of the Commonwealth in the I do not like the States taking over the role control of the economic policy of this coun­ of imposing payroll tax and using the pro­ try, it is sales tax. Payroll tax is basically ceeds for their purposes. It is of no purpose a means of raising a fund by which the gov­ to howl about the imposition of payroll tax. ernment-in this case the Commonwealth Practically every western country in the --can mete out social services, child endow­ world has payroll tax of some sort. The ment and the like. No industrial award can basis of my objection is that one cannot provide for variations in the number of de­ write into industrial awards something that pendants that a worker might have. If the will go towards a fund to look after- States take over sales tax it will be because the federal Government wants to get rid Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! I must of something. remind honourable members that the ques­ tion before the House is whether leave Mr BANNON: Sit him down. Pay-roll Tax Bill [li SEPT., 1973] Totalizator (Amendment) Bill 733 Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! I call the Motion agreed to. honourable member for Rockdale to order Bill presented and read a first time. for the first time. TOTALIZATOR (OFF-COURSE BETTING) Mr CHAFFEY: I do not want to see AMENDMENT BILL the imposition of national socialism on this country. I do not want to go goose-stepping INTRODUCTION with Gough or chanting Sieg Heil with Sir ROBERT ASKIN (Collaroy), Premier and Treasurer t[7.43]: I move: Hawke. That leave be given to bring in a bill to reconstitute the Totalizator Agency Board; for Sir ROBERT ASKIN (Collaroy), Premier this and other purposes to amend the Totaliza­ and Treasurer [7.41], in reply: I do not tor (Off-course Betting) Act, 1964; and for think there is any need for me to reply to 1)urposes connected therewith. what has been said by the speakers from the At the present time the Totalizator Agency Opposition side. The honourable member Board consists of nine members-the for Rockdale has other attributes but I do chairman and one other member nomi­ nated by the Minister, five members rep­ not think he knows a great deal about resenting galloping interests and ·one mem­ finance. I regret that the Opposition did ber each representing trotting and grey­ not put up somebody who knew something hound racing. That was the arrangement about what is going on. When the hon­ when the present Government came into ourable member for Rockdale set out to office. Honourable members will be aware criticize New South Wales for increasing that the present composition of the board payroll tax he blithely omitted to mention was based on the recommendations of the Royal commissioner who was appointed to that the Labor-governed States of South inquire into and report upon off-course bet­ Australia, Western Australia and Tas• ting in this State. His report was presented mania have agreed to do exactly the same in 1963 and the board was established in as New South Wales is doing. the following year. That was before the Liberal-Country party Government came Mr BANNON: I referred to the policy of into office. the New South Wales Government. Since that time, the pattern of off-course betting has changed and the representatives Sir ROBERT ASKIN: Apparently the of greyhound and trotting racing have honourable member for Rockdale does not strongly requested that they be granted read the newspapers. If he had read the greater representation on the board. For newspapers he would have known that last some time they made strong representations week, or perhaps ten days ago, the Labor­ to both the Government and to the Oppo­ sition. After consideration of all the rele­ governed State of Tasmania, the smallest vant factors, the Government decided to State, budgeted for a deficit of $5 million. seek Parliament's authority for increased If that were put into terms related to New representation to the extent of one addi­ South Wales it would be a deficit of $50 tional member each for trotting and grey­ million. I can assure honourable members hound racing and one object of this bill, on both sides of this House that, although among others, is to amend the Totalizator I shall be bringing down a budget provid­ (Off-course Betting) Act to make provision ing for a substantial deficit, it will not be for these appointments. It will give trotting anything comparable with that of the and greyhound interests better representa­ Labor-governed State of Tasmania. I regret tion on the board. to say that the honourable gentleman did Enlargement of the board as proposed not seem to know what he was talking will involve its reconstitution and in order about. I commend the motion to the House. to ensure continuity of the board, the bill 734 Totalizator Amendment Bill [ASSEMBLY] Education Bill provides for the reappointment of the exist­ offices of profit under the Crown. What I ing members for the remainder of their have stated is an outline of the main pro­ present term of office which expires on 9th visions. Full details of the various clauses April, 1974. All members will then be and provisions of the bill will be given at the eligible for reappointment for a further second-reading stage. term. That includes the recently appointed Mr BANNON (Rockdale) [7.48]: The chairman, Mr J. C. Fletcher, who, I hope bill appears to change radically the compo­ and expect, will be invited by the govern· sition of the Totalizator Agency Board. The ment to continue in office. Premier and Treasurer has indicated that The bill will also give the Minister dis· greater representation is to be given to what cretion in relation to the nomination of a might be described as the minor fields of second government representative to the racing, the trotting and greyhound spheres. board. As the Act now stands, he has no I gather that each of those bodies is to re­ choice in the matter and it has been felt ceive an extra appointment to the board to desirable to take the opportunity to intro­ strengthen its representation. There is to be duce some flexibility in this regard. It is felt an enlargement of the board. For the present that the two additional members may bring there will be one ministerial nomination but about a better balance between the three dif­ the Premier and Treasurer has indicated that ferent component sports. The board is get­ it might not be necessary to have an ad­ ing somewhat large and it might not be ditional ministerial nomination in the light found necessary for the Minister to of the increases in board membership now nominate an additional member be­ proposed. sides the chairman. However, the Govern­ The Premier and Treasurer went on in ment wants to review the matter in the light his introductory speech to refer to the of experience. Finally, it is proposed to in­ specific situation of two members of the clude a provision that the positions of chair­ Totalizator Agency Board, Mr Garbutt and man and member of the board are not Mr Fletcher. I am sure all honourable offices of profit under the Crown for the members would want to see the rights and purposes of any State Act. This is designed privileges of any person protected, but in to ensure that the services on the board of view of the Premier's remarks I am equally a person having personal qualities, back­ sure that the Opposition will want to ex­ ground and experience making him eminent­ amine the details of the bill when it be­ ly suitable for appointment will not be lost comes available. Therefore I must at this to the Government at some future stage point leave the matter with an open mind simply because of this aspect. until the bill has been presented and we There has been a trifle of doubt about the are able to examine its ramifications. situation. The original chairman, Mr Russell Motion agreed to. Garbutt, has just retired, having attained the Bill presented and read a first time. age of 70 years. There was no doubt about his situation because of a special clause in EDUCATION (AMENDMENT) BILL the State Superannuation Act. A new chair­ man, Mr J. C. Fletcher, was nominated by INTRODUCTION the Government and has been appointed by Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for the Governor-in-Council. I hope that he will Education [7.51]: I move: continue in office for years to come. He was That leave be granted to bring in a bill relating to the grant of school certificates; to a former contributor to the State superannu­ alter the constitution of the Secondary Schools ation fund and although the position is Board and the Board of Senior School Studies; for these and other purposes to amend the thought to be covered the Government Education Act, 1961; and for purposes con­ would like to put it beyond any risk of nected therewith. doubt. There will be a clause to make sure Over the years preceding 1972, the Secon­ that the positions of chairman and other dary Schools Board has made extensive in­ members of the board are not classed as vestigations concerning the future of the Sir Robert Askin] Education (11 SEPT., 1'973] Amendment Bflt 735 school certificate examination. The board can tip the. sort of paper that is likely to be has advised that, commencing from 1973, set for the examination, the student will the external school certificate examination have a better chance of passing it. In addi­ sh'ould be phased out gradually and that a tion, the effect of these examinations on the new form of assessing the achievement of children themselves is important. Some­ p~pils shoul4 be introduced. The board's times family and other problems at home advice has been accepted by the Govern­ upset children preparing for these exam­ ment. This bill will provide that a pupil inations, and I am sure that the Minister may be awarded a school certificate on the and his advisers are well aware that the basis of a school assessment of his achieve­ school certificate examination can be a ter­ ment. I shall be referring more fully to rible ordeal for some students. the forms of assessment and the educa­ The Opposition will welcome also the tional benefits of these measures at t!-te second-reading stage. proposal to begin a new form of assessing the achievement of pupils in lieu of the The bill will provide also for amendments school certificate examination. We shall look enabling persons nominated_ by colleges of ~dyaiJ-ce_4 education to be included in the forward with interest to hearing the Minister membership of the Secondary Schools outline the details at the second-reading Board and the Board of Senior School stage. The Minister referred also to recon-­ Studies, These amendments will represent stituting the Secondary Schools Board to· a significant development of our education include representatives of colleges of ad­ system. and· they· merit the- earnest con­ vanced education. This would be a step• si~eration of the House. I commend the forward as colleges of advanced education are moving very much into, the· field of' IJ1Pti9:U.· tertiary education and, therefore, they Mr BEDFORD (Fairfield)· '[7.52]:. In have; an important link with secondary· general terms, from what we have heard education: I thought.: that the• Minister said'. so:fM: the. Qppqsition-.woqld ·welcome a pro­ that there· would be· some· changes also- to· posal' that the school certificate· examination the constitution. of the Board· of Senior be· phased· out, commencing in, 1973; For School Studies, although he did' not outline· a long time educ.ationists have been ques­ the details of that proposal~ tioning the value of· a school'. certificate ex­ amination. I am sure . that the· decision to Mr WILLIS: I did~ I said' that the bill will phase it out. has been, reached after, a lot provide for amendments·. enabling. persons; of- mature consideration, by the Secondary nominated by colleges- ofr advanced educa­ Schools Board. I· notice in the 1971 annual tion· to be included in· the membership of report of the Department of Education· the the Secondary Schools Board and the Board· following paragraph under the heading of Senior School Studies. "Examinations: School Certificate Exam­ Mr.BEDFORD: I am·sorry that l.did not ination": note that point while the Minister was. The, Secondary Schools Board was primarily concerned in 1971 with investigation into alter­ speaking. These· are proposals with which native procedures whereby greater emphasis the Opposition would not cavil. We look would be placed on the school assessment com­ ponent in determining School Certificate forward to hearing the Minister at the awards. There was a continuing review of the second-reading stage, but on the face of Board's syllabuses and in some subjects addi­ what has .been put so far these are amend­ tional- levels were provided for examination candidates. ments that. the Opposition would support: whole-heartedly. I am pleased that the school' certificate ex­ amination is to be abolished, for the exam­ Motion agreed to.. ination is a sort of lottery: if'the teacher Bill presented and' read a first time. 736 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY] (Amendment) Bill INDUSTRIAL ARBITRATION payments by cheque, the Industrial Registrar (AMENDMENT) BILL will be required to satisfy himself either that the employees concerned consent to receive INTRODUCTION payment of their wages by cheque or that Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for the circumstances justify the issue of a cer­ Education [7.56]: I move: tificate, even though the employees do not That leave be given to bring in a bill to consent. Provision is made to enable the empower conciliation commissi?ners to s_ettle registrar to issue a certificate subject to disputes which involve demarcatiOn of callmgs; conditions to ensure that employees will to authorise the payment of wages by cheque in certain circumstances; to make certain pro­ suffer no disadvantage in cases where they visions with respect to an additional member do not consent to receive payment by of the Industrial Commission; for these and cheque. other purposes to amend the Industrial Arbi­ tration Act, 1940; and for purposes connected Other matters dealt with in the proposed therewith. bill include removal of the requirement for The proposed bill will make a number of the senior conciliation commissioner to re­ amendments to the existing Act, some of port annually to the Minister, and the which have been suggested by the president insertion of a provision to remove any pos­ of the Industrial Commission. The president sibility of doubt arising as to Mr Justice has suggested that the Act be amended to Sheppard's future position as a puisne judge empower a conciliation commissioner to of the Supreme Court following his partici­ make an order or award in settlement of a pation in the further inquiry by the Indus­ dispute involving a question of demarcation trial Commission into the hours of work of of callings, his view being that this would persons employed by the Electricity Com­ result in speedier resolution of a dispute of mission of New South Wales. I shall deal in the above nature. The bill will provide the greater detail with the various matters con­ necessary amendment to give effect to the tsined in the proposed bill at the second­ president's suggestion. rC'ading stage. I seek the leave of the House to introduce the bill. The president has suggested also that the Act be amended to permit precise unifor­ Mr QUINN (Wentworthville) [8.0]: I mity between adjustments to wages in New was quite interested to hear the Minister's South Wales awards and adjustments to remarks. Some of the matters about which wages in federal awards consequent on any he spoke are not quite clear from a mere national wage decision. Experience has reading of what is on the notice paper. I shown that the Commonwealth decisions think there will be parts of this bill on which have expressed increases in rates of wages the Opposition will take issue, but it is to operate from the beginning of a specific rather difficult to make a concrete state­ pay period and legislation in this State re­ ment to that effect with such limited know­ quires the commission, when it directs the ledge of what the Government proposes. amount by which the basic wage element of The Opposition is particularly concerned wages is to be varied, to specify the day about the proposed provision relating to on and from which any such variation shall payment of wages by cheque even when take effect. This has created an inconsistency employees do not consent to it. Honour­ between the Commonwealth and State able members are aware that already in cer­ positions, and the proposed bill will remedy tain circumstances employees are paid by this. cheque, quite contrary to the requirements The bill will provide also for amendments of the Industrial Arbitration Act and the of the provisions of the Act that require Truck Act. payment of wages in money. It is proposed Unfortunately in our community even to­ that payment of wages by cheque may be day there are some people who would not authorized by the Industrial Registrar upon be able to deal effectively with a cheque if the application, in writing, of an employer. it were given to them as payment for wages. Before issuing a certificate authorizing such There are people in this State who do not Industrial Arbitration Bill [11 SEPT., 1973] Farm Water Bill 737 have a bank account. Others who are bank­ Mr QUINN: I am not looking for orders. rupt are not entitled to have a bank ac­ though the Minister obtains orders from hi~ count. Serious hardship would be inflicted masters. The Opposition consults with rep­ on these people if they were to receive resentatives of the unions and obtains their wages by cheque. It might be said that views. Members on this side of the House they could cash the cheque with the local are not in any way bound to act on what shopkeeper. That would apply only if the union officials might say. On the other hand local shopkeeper were prepared to co­ the Minister has had ample time, before operate. I shall have more to say on this bringing this measure before the Parlia­ topic at the second-reading stage. ment, to obtain the views of those whom he Another matter which the Opposition will represents. I am merely suggesting that as watch with interest-and it seems to be the a matter of courtesy the Opposition should main point in this bill-is the proposal to be afforded the opportunity to obtain the authorize the Industrial Commission of views of those people who will be most New South Wales to settle demarcation dis­ vitally affected-members of the trade­ putes, which are among the most serious union movement of this State. problems involving the trade-union move­ Motion agreed to. ment. Experience has shown that these dis­ Bill presented and read a first time. putes are best dealt with by the Australian Council of Trade Unions in the federal FARM WATER STORAGES AND BORES sphere and by the Labor Council of New SUBSIDIES BILL South Wales in the State sphere. The State Labor Council has been called upon fre­ INTRODUCTION quently to settle disputes between unions. Mr FREUDENSTEIN (Young), Minis­ The Labor Council is the parliament of ter for Conservation and Minister for trade unionism in this State and can quite Cultural Activities [8.5]: I move: adequately deal with these matters without That leave be given to bring in a bill to make necessarily referring them to the Industrial p_r~vision with respect to the payment of sub­ Sidies towards the cost of certain farm water Commission. storages and bores; and for purposes connected therewith. Naturally, in the past disputes have been referred to the commission but usually the The proposals in the bill represent another commissioners have obtained agreement phase of this Government's policy to imple­ rather than made rulings. Where demar­ ment fully a balanced and comprehensive water conservation programme throughout cation disputes have been dealt with by this State. The construction of on-farm the Labor Council and agreement has been storages is an essential part of this pro­ entered into it is, enforced by the union gramme. The basic aim of this legislation is movement itself. The Opposition is of the to encourage landholders to take positive firm opinion that the trade-union movement steps in planning against drought and, in can quite adequately deal with these issues. certain circumstances, to provide a means Members on this side of the House will be of limited irrigation. The bill provides that particularly interested to see what is en­ owners of land used for farming or other tailed in the bill which the Minister will rural purposes may make application for a bring forward. I hope we will not be re­ subsidy towards the cost of constructing or quired to debate this measure tomorrow as improving a farm water storage or bore to it contains matters of great importance to provide a water supply to a holding. Gen­ the trade~union movement and I should like erally speaking, a farm water storage means to discuss them with the unions before the a tank or a dam, and includes a dam, usually second-reading debate. called a gully control structure, constructed Mr WILLIS: The honourable member for or as part of soil conservation works on wishes to get his orders. a farm. The amount of subsidy payable is 47 738 Farm Water [ASSEMBLY] Subsidies Bill 25 per cent of the cost of the work up to a payment of the subsidy is subject to the maximum of $1,000 in respect of any one landholder making application for the sub­ holding which is operated as a separate and sidy prior to commencement of the work, distinct farming unit. and to the work being authorized prior to Pending introduction of this legislation commencement, and to inspection of the the subsidy scheme has operated under Cabi­ work after completion to ensure that it has net approval since 1st July, 1971, and it has been carried out satisfactorily. The bill been administered from within my adminis­ makes provision for the joint administration tration by the Water Conservation and Irri­ of the scheme by the Water Conservation gation Commission and the Soil Conserva­ and Irrigation Commission and the Soil tion Service. This arrangement is referred to Conservation Service. It contains also other in the bill as the previous scheme. Other provisions of a minor, consequential or an­ principal features of the bill are that the cillary character. I shall be pleased to ex­ subsidy is payable only for the improvement plain the bill in more detail at the second­ of the land in the interests of primary pro­ reading stage. duction; companies are ineligible to receive Mr NOTT (Burrendong) [8.9]: The Min­ the subsidy except a trustee company acting ister has given quite a lot of information in its representative capacity and being a about this bill in his introductory speech. trustee company as defined by the Com­ That detail would lead the Opposition to panies Act, 1964, and an exempt proprietary believe that this is a fine measure that should company as defined by the Companies Act, receive the appreciation of the rural people 1961; the subsidy scheme is to apply in New South Wales. The Minister has told throughout the State, provided that the us that the bill is designed to give effect total subsidy from any source, whether it to an election promise by the Government be Commonwealth, State, semi-govern­ which in fact has been in operation, by mental or local government does not Cabinet approval, for just over two years. exceed 100 per cent of the cost of the I was pleased to hear the Minister say that work; the scheme is not retrospective in its except in special circumstances the subsidy operation-that is, any farm water storage will be payable only to single-unit property or bore commenced or constructed prior to owners, and that companies generally will 1st July, 1971, is ineligible for subsidy; and not be eligible to receive it. subsidies will be payable for bores whether they prove successful or not provided the It is interesting to note that the subsidy work is recommended by the Water Con­ will be payable in respect of bores whether servation and Irrigation Commission. they prove to be successful or not. This has been an area of concern to primary A further proposal in this legislation is producers who received advances under the that the payment of the subsidy attaches to farm water supply scheme to put down the owner's property or holding as it is de­ bores which proved to be failures. This has fined in the bill. This means that an applica­ resulted in a great burden on the landholders tion for subsidy may be made by the owner concerned. The bill appears to be a great of a property or, with the owner's consent, advance and a generous offer by the Gov­ by a lessee of the whole or part of the ernment to provide that where, after the property which constitutes a holding. The bill contains criteria for determining who is best of technical advice, a bore is put down an owner and what is a holding. Also, the and it proves to be a failure, the land­ measure provides that the subsidy is payable holder concerned will be eligible for a sub­ to a landholder in respect of more than one sidy. No doubt the Minister in this· second­ property provided that the additional hold­ reading speech will say how much subsidy ing or holdings are being worked as separate will be paid if a bore proves to be a failure. and distinct farming units; water distributary There is little possibility of failure of a works such as pumps, windmills, diversion­ farm storage that consists of a tank or dam ary works, and · so on will not qualify for that is properly constructed. However, it the subsidy; and finally, as a general rule, should be spelt out whether the farm water Mr Freudenstein] Farm Water Bill [11 SEPT., 1973] Housing Bill 739· supply scheme covers the full cost of a repaid over a period of fifty-three years. bore that is a total failure or whether the The interest to be charged is to be 4 per landowner concerned will have to meet the cent per annum in respect of housing cost of some of the work involved. authority funds and 4! per cent per annum in respect of the moneys allocated to the These are matters about which I look home builders' account. forward to further information from the Minister in his second-reading speech. The Part IV of the agreement outlines the Opposition looks forward to reading the bill; purposes for which advances to the hous­ we shall give it careful consideration and ing authority may be used and requires the if we find that there are areas about which State to allocate a certain minimum per­ we are not clear, I am sure that, in his centage of dwellings to families and other reply to the second-reading debate, the Min­ persons who satisfy a needs test which is ister will satisfy our minds. Basically, at this set out in clause 16 and is based on the introductory stage, the Opposition supports average gross weekly income of the main the measure as honouring an undertaking breadwinner. Dwellings constructed by the given by the Government at the last general housing authority may be allocated on a election, and one that will give great bene­ rental or sales basis subject to the limita­ fit to the rural people of New South Wales. tion that not more than 30 per cent of the family dwellings built with funds provided Motion agreed to. under the agreement may be sold. There Bill presented and read a first time. are also restrictions on the resale by pur­ chasers of dwellings which are set out in subclause 5 of clause 19 of the agreement. HOUSING AGREEMENT BILL The bill, accordingly, includes a provision IN'IRODUCTION --clause 3-which will secure the necessary Mr BRUXNER (Tenterfield), Minister machinery to give effect to these restrictions. for Housing and Minister for Co-operative Moneys in the home builders' account Societies [8.13]: I move: are to be used for making loans in accord­ That leav.~ be given to bring in a bill to ance with the requirements of part V of the authorise the execution by or on behalf of the bill which outlines the conditions of elig­ State of New South Wales of an agreement ibility of borrowers, based again on the between the Commonwealth and the States in relation to housing; and for purposes con­ average gross weekly income of the main nected therewith. breadwinner, and requires a borrower to have a minimum equity of not less than 3 This measure seeks the authority of Parlia­ per cent of the valuation of the property. ment to the execution by or on behalf of In the past members of this House have the State of New South Wales of a new always shown a keen interest in matters Commonwealth-State housing agreement, relating to housing-that was indicated by the terms of which are set out in the the debate this afternoon-and I look for­ schedule to the bill. The agreement ward to the debate that will ensue. Further authorizes the making of advances to the details will be available at the second-read­ State for welfare housing purposes during ing stage. I commend the motion to the the five years· commencing on 1st July, House. 1973, and ending on 30th June, 1978. Part of the money advanced is to be used by the Mr CRABTREE (Kogarah) [8.18]: I State for the provision of housing through thank the Minister for introducing this its housing authority, and the other part legislation. Opposition members welcome for the provision of finance by way of the new Commonwealth-State housing loans to prospective homeowners through· agreement. We recall that the original the home builders' account. The latter shall agreement was introduced in 1945 and that not be less than 20 per cent nor more than after the defeat of the federal Labor Gov­ 30 per cent of the total amount of the ernment in 1949, the national Government annual advances. The advances are to be altered the agreement in many respects, 740 Housing Bill [ASSEMBLY] Oil Pollution Bill until two years ago it finally refused to re­ clubs conducting greyhound racing is con­ introduce it. The agreement is in accordance cerned. The New South Wales National with the pledge of the Commonwealth Coursing Association Limited, the major Labor Government to re-introduce the greyhound racing club and the authority Commonwealth-State housing agreement. I responsible for the registration of grey­ am interested to know at this early stage hounds throughout the State, will be given that the Government has specified that direct representation on the board. The money will be made available at 4 per cent numerical strength of the board will not be in respect of rented homes and at 4t per increased but one of the two members at cent in respect of homes acquired under present appointed from a panel nominated the home builders' account. Apparently this by the greyhound racing clubs will be ap­ provision is in the agreement. However, I pointed directly on the nomination of the should like the Minister to check this and New South Wales National Coursing to deal with it in his second-reading speech. Association Limited. This aspect is important because under the Since the establishment of the board in old housing agreement I think the interest 1949, at least one of the representatives rate was 1 per cent less than the bond rate. from the greyhound racing clubs has, in Mr BRUXNER: That is the interest the fact, usually also been a member of the State pays to the Commonwealth for the National Coursing Association and the bill funds. therefore will give legislative effect to this practice. The bill also makes provision for Mr CRABTREE: That is right. The the annual report of the Greyhound Racing agreement will operate for a period of five Control Board to be presented to Parliament years, so that it is an important break­ and makes certain other minor changes through for the Government to have the affecting the board. I shall deal in greater money available to it now and that it can detail with the bill at the second-reading be repaid at interest rates of 4 per cent and stage. I commend the motion to honourable 4t per cent respectively. The Opposition members. is not tied to its federal colleagues in rela­ tion to this agreement, and I assure the Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) 1[8.21]: The Opposition will of course care­ Minister that some criticism will be made fully consider the bill. I have no comment of it at the second-reading stage. The Op­ on it at this stage other than to say that a position looks forward with great interest number of members of the Opposition­ to more information being provided at the including the honourable member for East second-reading stage. Hills-have strong feelings about this matter. Ooubtless he will express his views ·Motion agreed to. at length at the second-reading stage. Bill presented and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill presented and read a first time. GAMING AND BETTING (AMENDMENT) BILL PREVENTION OF OIL POLLUTION OF IN'IRODUCTION NAVIGABLE WATERS (AMENDMENT) BILL Mr GRIFFITH (Cronulla), Chief Secre­ tary and Minister for Sport 1[8.20]: I move: SECOND READING Debate resumed (from 30th August, vide That leave be given to bring in a bill to reconstitute the Greyhound Racing Control page 685) on motion by Mr Waddy on be­ Board; for this and other purposes to amend half of Sir Robert Askin: the Gaming and Betting Act, 1912; and for That this bill be now read a second time. purposes connected therewith. Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) The main purpose of the bill is to change 1[8.22]: Unfortunately, the debate on this the constitution of the Greyhound Racing bill seems to be continually adjourned. It is Control Board in so far as membership of an important matter and it is difficult to Prevention of Oil [11 SEPT., 1973] Pollution Bill 741 maintain continuity over so many adjourn­ defence in new subsection ( 4) (c) which ments. When the debate was last adjourned provides that subsection ( 3 ) does not apply I was half way through my contribution in relation to a tanker where the owner and was dealing with what has been de­ proves that the discharge of the oil or mix­ scribed by the Minister for Youth and ture containing oil was wholly caused by Community Services and other speakers as the negligence or other wrongful act of any enterprise liability. I had said at that stage government, or other authority, responsible that the Opposition intended to move in for the maintenance of lights or other navi­ Committee for an amendment to clause 3. gational aids in the exercise of its functions I was saying that the Minister had in relation to those lights or aids. What I given considerable credence and support to am saying is that the principle so ably the principle of enterprise liability. He had stated by the Minister and so brilliantly stated that it was one of the most important supported by the honourable member for aspects of the Civil Law Convention and Vaucluse is negated by this provision. Ac­ that it was generally recognized that oil cordingly, the Opposition proposes to move pollution and consequent damage had be­ an amendment. come a proper subject for the imposition of The next matter on which I should like enterprise liability. He went on to say that to comment-and I keep on prefacing my wherever oil is handled in bulk spillage remarks by saying that the bill contains would occur and the cost of this should be many provisions deserving of praise and borne by those who choose to handle oil in the fact that I do not praise them certainly bulk. does not mean that I do not strongly sup­ The honourable member for Vaucluse port them-refers to new section 7 c ( 3) . claimed that a further commendable feature I want to refer in particular to paragraph of the bill relates to enterprise liability in (b) of the subsection, which provides a that legal action for the purposes of estab­ defence to a prosecution. The paragraph lishing negligence will cost more and more sets out that it is a defence to plead that and enterprise liability, or no-fault liability, compliance with the notice was not pos­ will become more popular. I was saying that sible. I take issue with the words, not pos­ this principle of enterprise liability was quite sible. However, the Opposition does not foreign to me. I had never heard of it and intend to move an amendment. This is I have practised in the law for a number of merely a comment. The phrase, not pos­ years, especially in this field of law. I always sible, is a terribly vague and sloppy legal understood the term to be vicarious liability, expression. I think it was Harpo Marx strict liability or absolute liability. However, who commented that only two things in I do not propose to argue about terms. New this world were not possible-they cannot 8ection 7 (2A) provides: make you love the child and you cannot Where the occupier of a pipeline is charged squeeze toothpaste back into the tube. The with an offence under section 6 it shall be a legal drafting should be made a little defence to prove that the discharge of oil or clearer. The same words, not possible, ap­ mixture containing oil was not caused knowingly, wilfully or negligently. pear again in new section 7n ( 4). In other words the whole principle of The only other matter with which the vicarious or enterprise liability is thrown Opposition has any disagreement appears in substituted section 18. Subsection ( 1) out of the window for pipeline occupiers. The liability is no longer strict; it is subject provides: to a provision that the discharge was not Proceedings for an offence against this Act caused knowingly, wilfully or negligently. or the regulations may be taken before a Honourable members might compare that stipendiary magistrate sitting alone or before the Supreme Court in its summary jurisdiction. provision with new section 7E ( 3 ) (b) by which strict liability indeed is imposed on Subsection (2) provides that proceedings tanker owners. They are obliged to cough brought before a stipendiary magistrate at­ up whether the spillage was their fault or tract a maximum penalty of $2,000. It is otherwise. That same new section offers a not so long ago-only a matter of a week 742 Prevention of Oil [ASSEMBLY] Pollution Bill or two-that the Minister for Health came in the Sydney metropolitan area, particu­ under heavy attack after the Health Com­ larly in recent times. There has been diffi­ mission had launched a prosecution against culty with oil slicks even as far afield as a company that had allowed, I think, sump the Murray River, where in 1971 a slick oil to pollute Parramatta River. The ques­ 15 miles long and 100 yards wide caused tion raised was why the Health Commis­ terrible trouble. Fines that have been im­ sion had taken proceedings in petty sessions posed under existing legislation have been where the penalty was only $2,000 instead pitiful, to say the least, and this probably of in the Supreme Court where a penalty substantiates any claim that all cases should of $1 0,000-a far more appropriate penalty be brought before the Supreme Court. For -could be imposed. The Minister gave a example, early in 1971 Email was prose­ satisfactory explanation, to me, why that cuted by the Maritime Services Board for had happened. serious oil spillage, but was fined only $50. The Opposition is concerned that in this This ludicrous penalty caused a lot of ad­ legislation, which provides for penalties of verse public comment. $50,000, and sometimes millions of dollars I feel that the increase in penalty pre­ in the case of tankers, provision should be scribed in this, legislation will meet with the made for proceedings in petty sessions. approval of the people of New South Wales, Surely any spillage of oil is serious enough who expect heavier penalties than $50 to be to warrant the prosecution being brought imposed, even if it is a first offence. I do before the S~preme Court-if a prosecu­ not think the fact that it is a first offence tion is to be launched. The fact that it is matters. This is not the sort of legisla­ possible to bring charges before a court of tion that is designed in a criminal sense to petty sessions gives those who are not really apportion guilt; rather, it is designed to pre­ anxious to prosecute the opportunity to vent oil spillages. The guilt of the matter bring the matter in a jurisdiction in which is irrelevant. The fact is that large quan­ only a small penalty-$2,000-can be im­ tities of oil are being spilled and the health posed. In the view of the Opposition the and property of too many people are being spillage of oil is so serious that a prosecu­ put in jeopardy. A penalty should be paid tion should never be brought before a and companies compelled to realize that a stipendiary magistrate; it should always heavy penalty will be imposed unless they come before the Supreme Court where a take adequate measures to prevent any satisfactorily large penalty can be imposed. spillage. There is no need for the applica­ If the matter is so minor that only a small tion of section 556A to this type of offence, punishment is appropriate, a Supreme Court or for small penalties. I think offenders judge has as much power as a magistrate should be hit hard every time a spillage to impose a $10 penalty if he feels so occurs. If they want to set off heavy penal­ inclined. On the other hand, if the pro­ ties they can do so by insuring against them. vision relating to stipendiary magistrates is The honourable member for Vaucluse and eliminated, there will be eliminated aJso his colleagues will get a lot of work from this the future possibility of a Minister or legislation-and rightly so in my opinion. officer failing to take up a matter as strongly Oil companies will have to insure so that the as he should and avoiding a heavy penalty public will be protected. We do not want in being imposed by the Supreme Court. For Australia anything like the Torrey Canyon that reason we of the Opposition shall move tragedy to spoil our beaches. The people an amendment. All in all, in my opinion of Australia love water sports and their this is a satisfactory piece of legislation. It environment. We agree to the legislation is not before time that these amendments in principle and although we have some have come before the House. There has minor objections to it, we support the been a lot of difficulty with oil pollution second reading. Mr F. J. Walker] Prevention of Oil [11 SEPT., 1973] Pollution Bill 743 Mr MUTTON (Yaralla) [8.34]: I join Mr MUTTON: I am talking of comple­ honourable members on beth sides of the mentary legislation. Before the federal elec­ House in commending the Minister for tion the people were not told that the Labor Youth and Community Services for the in­ Prime Minister and his senior cohorts would troduction of this bill. I agree with the hon­ quickly embrace our enemies and at the ourable member for Georges River that this same time throw away our long-standing is a most important debate. As intimated by international friends and Pacific neighbours. the Minister, this is complementary legisla­ The people were told before 2nd December tion. I believe it is complementary not only that no independent schools would get less in the sense of being complementary to the money under Labor arrangements and that Commonwealth legislation and the legisla­ the needy schools would get more. Of tion of all the other States, but also to the course, we all know now that many schools many actions already taken by the State have been cut out altogether. This is quite Government to improve the environment contrary to the proposals made by Labor and ecological conditions of this State­ when it was in opposition and seeking gov­ the premier State of Australia. Contrary to ernment. the remarks by members of the Opposition, New South Wales is in the forefront in these Mr L. B. KELLY: On a point of order. areas of legislation, as it is in the field of Surely education and the federal govern­ environmental activity and most other areas. ment's grants or proposed grants for educa­ I am certain that while this Government cation have nothing to do with oil pollution remains in office this will continue to be the of navigable waters. Perhaps the Chair will situation. prevail upon the honourable member to re­ turn to the bill. I listened with interest to the speeches of members who purported to be leading for Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! The hon­ the Opposition in this field. While giving ourable member for Yaralla was beginning faint praise tonight and being somewhat to stray a little from the Parramatta River complimentary to the Minister for his intro­ and Duck Creek. I think he should keep to duction of the bill and for its objects and the main course and return to the bill. proposals, the honourable member for Georges River indicated what the Labor Mr MUTTON: I shall return to the mat­ Party might do if it came to office. I re­ ters contained in the bill. I am sure members mind honourable members opposite that will be interested to be reminded that just they were in government for an intermin­ prior to the federal elections the Prime Min­ able twenty-four years, and that this was ister expressed such an interest in the type most unfortunate for the State of New South of matters now before the House that he Wales and the people. What Labor pro­ actually went on a jaunt along the Parra­ mises in opposition and what it will do matta River and expressed the opinion that if it eventually becomes the government the river was much dirtier that it was when are two entirely different things. What it he last travelled on it as a college grammar says in opposition it seldom does in govern­ student. This of course was in 1941 when ment. History shows that when the Labor Labor came to office for nine years in the Party attains office it does things that were federal arena and for twenty-four years in never even mentioned by it prior to the New South Wales. In those nine years of election. One has only to look at happen­ federal Labor administration during and ings in Canberra. I am sure that by now after the war-1940 to 1949-nearly all the Australian people have found out to the industries likely to cause air and water their sorrow and anger that what the Labor pollution were installed along the foreshores Party promised when in opposition is of the Parramatta River in my electorate. nothing like what is happening now that The New South Wales Labor Government it is in office in Canberra. during its twenty-four years of office from Mr L. B. KELLY: The honourable mem­ 1940 to 1965 allowed the setting up of oil ber is supposed to be talking about comple­ installations and oil tank farms in Botany mentary legislation. Bay and along the upper reaches of the 744 Prevention of Oil - [ASSEMBLY] Pollution Bill

Parramatta River. In 1960 I was able to only on the eastern side of the Harbour defeat a similar monstrous proposal for Bridge, in recent years the operations have Brays Bay at Rhodes. In fact, any of the oil been extended to the west of the bridge, and chemical establishments along our fore­ as far as Cabarita and Putney. This clearly shores either were installed under the Labor indicates that the Government, and the administration or grew tenfold during that Maritime Services Board which is under the regime. This, I believe, aptly describes administration of the Government, have Labor's type of government in this field. done a fine job since Labor went out of office. Because of the actions of the Whitlam regime, there is no hope of Labor attaining My experience has been that industry has office in New South Wales or in any other co-operated in this field of protecting the State. The Whitlam Government has dis­ environment and the ecology; indeed, I be­ played a singular lack of concern in environ­ lieve many companies have protected the mental matters. The honourable member foreshores. This has been brought about for Maroubra spent a lot of time condemn­ by Government activity of coercion and also ing the activities and efficiency of the Mari­ by the responsive co-operation of many time Services Board. Perhaps the most companies, particularly the multi-national serious allegation made by him is that the companies that we hear so much about. new single-point mooring buoy provided by Being widely based, they have had prac­ the Maritime Services Board in Botany Bay tical experience in other parts of the world. has been improperly constructed because Many companies are spending enormous ships cannot moor to it under adverse amounts in the anti-pollution field and en­ weather conditions. Anyone familiar with suring that no oil enters our waters. One Botany Bay would know that there is no­ major oil company on the Parramatta River where in that bay where ships can be moor­ is spending $3t million on re-cycling water. ed under adverse weather conditions. This When the programme is complete, the plant applies at the Kurnell oil jetty, at the Aus­ will no longer use water from the Parra­ tralian Oil Refineries submarine terminal matta River, as it has done for many years, and everywhere else. When adverse condi­ but will collect the stormwater that falls on t-ions develop ships must leave their berths its area, and re-cycle it for use in the manu­ and go to sea, and every seagoing ship berth­ facture of products. The same organization ed in Botany Bay is always ready to put to has set aside many acres of swamp land sea at short notice. There is nothing unusual and mangrove trees within its own area to in this. In various parts of the world there provide a habitat for bird life, Also, man­ are shipping installations which can only be groves are 'being planted along the fore­ used, on the average, on one day in three. shores of the river. A recent article in the The works being carried out in Botany Bay, newspapers described what is being done the deep dredging of the entrance and the there. The growth of cabbage weed has also armoured interval breakwater, will ultimate­ increased in this area, and as far up the ly produce smooth-water berths in the Parramatta River as Granville. Indeed, Banksmeadow area. weed has been collected at Granville and sold as bait for blackfish. That proves how The Maritime Services Board deserves clean it is. commendation for the manner in which it has kept Sydney Harbour and its environs Mr BEDFORD: The fish are all black up so clean in recent years. As a matter of there. fact, after Labor went out of office the Mr MUTTON: Weed was collected improvement was so rapid that it was pos­ there for some federal members who in­ sible to run hydrofoils on Sydney harbour tended to fish on the South Coast. Many without difficulty and without their having residents along the shore of the Parramatta to avoid the flotsam and jetsam that had River have told me how much the position presented a danger in previous times. Al­ has improved in the past couple of years .. 'tbough the hydrofoils could use the harbour During the pa,st c;:ouple of years fishing MrMutton] Prevention of Oil [11 SEPT., l9i3] Pollution Bill 745. trawlers that never went further west than section 18 is to be amended. It at present the Gladesville bridge now travel as far provides for proceedings to be con.ducted west as the Ryde bridge. We hear much before a magistrate, and as a result of the talk about what is happening on the amendment the proceedings may be taken Thames, but when the major programme before the Supreme Court. I am pleased for control of oil and water pollution is that tidal waters are to be defined to mean completed there, it will still be only as clean a part of the sea or a part of a river within as the Parramatta River is now in the the ebb and flow of the tide. This not only vicinity of Rydalmere. will give the bill broader application, but I am confining my remarks to the section also will certainly make its application easier of the bill that refers specifically to pipe­ to define. While the honourable member line and landline connections. I do this for Georges River agreed with increased because it is of particular interest to my penalties, he believed that the penal ap­ proach to the enforcement of environment electorate. These areas are the sole respon­ laws was insufficient. I believe that sibility of the State, and I know from my own experience and observations that they the Government's programme of coer­ are in good hands. Any legislation to pre­ cion and co-operation is being carried vent offences by shipping must apply simi­ out, and already large companies are larly to pollution on land. Therefore, I am accepting responsibility in this field of pre­ pleased that the definition "place on land" servation of the environment, particularly in is to be amended, to make it clear that a relation to anti-pollution methods. Most pipeline is a place on land even when it is companies have accepted their liabilities, beneath the water. I live alongside an under­ and their concern for the avoidance of water ground connection between an oil installa­ pollution and the preservation of the en­ tion at Silverwater and the gas works in vironment is growing swiftly. Companies are Mortlake. I well remember the length and responding to public demand and to Govern­ depth of the excavation that was made to ment action in the various environmental position these pipelines, and the care and and anti-pollution fields. attention that were given to their location. The honourable member for Georges I remember also an accident to the pipeline River and the honourable member for that was caused by tipping carried out by Maroubra suggested a proper planning for another authority, resulting in the death of this type of measure. My colleagues and I many fish when the line fractured. could not agree more, and we believe that I am interested to see that the definitions had Labor when in office undertaken proper are adjusted so that the authorities will have planning when it sited oil installations at more adequate control and suitable penalties will be provided for these offences. The Botany Bay and on the Parramatta River;. difficulty I have outlined will now be covered in precarious positions where the waterways· by extending also the definition of occupier could easily be ruined by industrial acci­ to include the owner of the pipeline-the dents, spillage, and negligence, the present lessee, the licensee or user of the pipeline­ great concern for the environment and the even though he does not occupy the land possibility of water pollution would not have through which it runs. The definition of assumed such large proportions. The jurisdiction will be amended to mean the honourable member for Georges River went sea lying within one nautical league of the on to say that this was not the time to• coast. That, of course, is of special interest discuss detailed plans for the waterways to• to my electorate. prevent damage from pollution. He ob­ The basic penalties under section 6 and viously knew that the problems arising from section 6A of the Act will be increased the siting of these installations were the from $2,000 to $50,000, to provide unifor­ result of the actions of his own party when mity between all the States and the Com­ it was last in office. The honourable member monwealth. I am particularly pleased that for Maroubra agreed that prevention is 746 Prevention of Oil [ASSEMBLY] better than cure, and claimed that preven­ say that, pro rata, the Government of New tion should have taken place. Yet he was South Wales has done much more than the the Labor mayor of Randwick, in a Labor­ Commonwealth Government. All the Labor dominated council, about the time when Government in Canberra has done is upset these installations were placed at Botany the economy, causing great inflation, while Bay by the Labor Government at that time. doing absolutely nothing about protecting Why did he not exert his influence then? the environment. I should have thought Was it that he could not get his colleagues that the federal Government would at least in the Labor Government to listen to him­ have offered a tax concession to encourage or to the experiences of the man in the large companies to do even more than they street, or to people who were conscious of are doing today about the various forms what could happen to the environment? of pollution, including water pollution. I Unfortunately as a result of what Labor did have here a copy of the federal Govern­ when it was in office, the present Govern­ ment's election policy speech. It is signifi­ ment has to find cures for the ills that were cant that it does not contain even the word created by its predecessors. environment, and so demonstrates what Labor proposed to do in this field. Also, The honourable member for Georges I have a statement that was made by the River spoke about the changes that Labor Hon. T. Uren-the only statement I can would make when it gained the reins of find that was made by Labor prior to the office. He spoke of the administration of federal elections. He said that the Com­ environment control. All I can say in reply monwealth had power to levy special taxes to that is that last year in New South Wales to halt pollution, could encourage action $11 million was spent in this field, and the with tax incentives and give grants to the federal Government allocated less than $2 States, local government and semi-govern­ million for the whole of Australia. I have ment authorities to ensure the policing of spoken about what Labor did when it was the environment. He said, "The environ­ last in office in New South Wales. Labor has ment is a national problem which demands been in office in Canberra for nine months a co-operative national approach." -for a quarter of its first and only term My feeling is that it is about time the of office-but has done virtually nothing but Commonwealth Government did something. talk about the environment. I find it hard to believe that a State Labor government, which did nothing but display Mr WADDY: They have considered the complacency towards our foreshores during environment at Galston Gorge. its long term of office, would be capable Mr MU'ITON: That is right, they have of a performance better than we have seen thought of Galston Gorge, of course, and so far from the federal Labor Govern­ they have agreed to do something about the ment. This year I have made several trips environment there. along the Parramatta River and on the last occasion it was a wet day. [Quorum Mr BEDFORD: That does not worry me. formed.] It is interesting to observe how Mr MU'ITON: It might not worry the little interest Opposition members have in honourable member or the Labor Party, this measure before the House, which deals but it does worry the average Australian with the important subject of environment. who is concerned about the environment. A further matter of interest is the speech The Liberal-Country party Government has of the Prime Minister on 19th May, 1972, been in office in New South Wales for when he said: 100 months, and Labor has been in office The basis of our environmental development in Canberra for nine months-9 per cent will be an Optimum Environment Statement, analagous to the Universal Declaration of of the time we have been here-but I should Human Rights. Prevention of Oil [11 SEPT., 1973] Pollution Bill 747 On 12th May of the same year Mr Whitlam submit that the honourable member for said: Y aralia is in order in his statements which The future of our cities is overshadowed deal with oil pollution. and our planning processes are impaired by our failure to make clear the consequences of Mr HAIGH: Further on the point of order. present trends in urban development ... The honourable member for Yaralla is not It's time we invited them into the conference directing his remarks to oil pollution in room ... navigable waters. I submit that his remarks I should say that it is time they were invited are contributing to the air pollution in this into the conference room as a federal Labor Chamber. government has been in office for nine months and nothing has happened. The Mr AcTING-SPEAKER (Mr MAHONEY): Prime ,Minister's statement continues: Order! The bill deals with the prevention of oil pollution of navigable waters and The quality of a family's life is determined the matter of an airport being establishea far less by the house in which they live than by the environment of which it is a party. at Galston has nothing whatever to do with that subject. The honourable member for I would suggest that the citizens of Galston Y aralia should confine himself to the bill. and Parramatta be asked whether they are concerned about environmental issues. Mr Mr MUTTON: Returning to the bill, I Whitlam said further: did say earlier that I had had the opportunity of travelling up the Parramatta River and on We need a national plan for the environment within which each level of government accepts the last occasion I observed the extremely specific responsibilities and plays a specific clean waters coming from areas occupied part. by many industries, which resulted from the action that they had taken. However, I would suggest that it is time the federal water that entered the upper reaches fol­ Government played its part. The statement lowing a storm over the Labor-controlled by the Prime Minister then continued: areas of Parramatta was dirty indeed and The basis of our environmental development did show oil slicks. should be an Optimum Environment Statement. The bill gives the Maritime Services All these statements made by Mr Whitlam Board power to take action to prevent, re­ prior to the 1972 elections included thq move or reduce pollution of navigable remarks: waters by oil from ships, tankers, places No city or centre can function satisfactorily on land, including pipelines, and apparatus unless its planners take proper account of the used for the transfer of oil. The honour­ airsheds, the watersheds and all the other able member for Georges River has spoken environmental sub-systems upon which it de­ already on the bill and showed enthusiastic pends and with which it must co-exist. agreement with its introduction. The hon­ In a matter of two hours a political deci­ ourable member for Maroubra is on record sion was made in respect of Galston. as saying that the terms of the bill are generally sound but that the Government Mr L. B. KELLY: On a point of order. has failed to protect the rights and privi­ Although I enjoy listening to a statement leges of the community on environmental made by the federal leader of the Labor matters. I submit confidently that this Party, I submit that it has nothing to do statement applied to the honourable mem­ with the prevention of oil pollution of ber for Maroubra and the party of which navigable waters and I ask that the honour­ he is a member when it was in office. The able member for Yaralla be asked to return bill now before the House is an endeavour to the subject of the bill. to correct the previous Government's bad Mr VINEY: Further on the point of order. planning, lack of consideration for the It is well known that Galston is in hilly people, lack of consideration for the en­ country and oil spillages in that area can vironment and lack of consideration of the easily find their way into navigable waters. I rights of the ordinary citizens. 748 Prevention of Oil [ASSEMBLY] Pollution Bill

Prior to the federal elections Mr Uren recognized as part of the total cost of pro­ made an airy-fairy statement about urban ductive enterprise. We subscribe also to the affairs and protection of the environment, principle that the federal Government ought to which I have already adverted. In the to afford incentives to encourage protection Minister's second-reading speech he said of the environment. It has had nine months that it was obvious that State legislation was in which to do this, yet it has done nothing. necessary to enforce or carry out preven­ I was pleased to observe the way in which tive action in regard to ships. This must the Minister spoke in relation to enterprise be accompanied by power to cover places liability as dealt with in new section Sc, on land. Section 7 of the Act provides for covering the special provision for pipe­ special defences that may be made by the lines operated under licence from an owner. owner or master of a ship who is charged Although operators may enter into this type with an offence against section 6. The bill of arrangement, no doubt the owner will provides for special defences to deal with protect himself against civil liability by ob­ the particular situation of pipelines from taining suitable indemnity from the opera­ which oil may escape in either of two ways. tor. First, the pipeline may be improperly con­ It was indicated quite clearly that so far structed or maintained, which is negligence as this legislation is concerned enterprise by the owner or, second, the pumping op­ liability really applies and any person or erations may be improperly conducted by any company making a pipeline available the user, which would amount to negli­ for the pumping of oil accepts the conse­ gence 'by the user unless he were to rely quences. There is general recognition that on liability properly given to the owner. oil pollution has become a proper subject Proposed new subsection (2A) of section 7 will enable the Maritime Services Board for the imposition of enterprise liability, to deal with each case. irrespective of other liability, and the burden of any damage or accident should be borne Under the new provisions the penalty for non-compliance rises to $50,000 and any by all the persons engaged in the activity. person wilfully obstructing service of such My colleague, the honourable member for a notice is liable also to a penalty of up to Vaucluse, who has a deal of ability in this the same amount. Under the provisions of field, has referred in some detail already to new section 7F arrangements are to be made its advantages. This type of liability has to cover emergency situations and there are been expounded 'by me and by the hon­ requirements that may be imposed by notice ourable member for Fuller as a method for covering all oil vehicles, apparatus, pipe­ covering third-party liability in the use of lines and land installations associated with motor vehicles. them. Action will be taken against the oc­ Probably one of the most important as­ cupier and costs will be recoverable from pects of this measure is that it deals with the occupier of a storage tank or pipeline. the general acceptance of the law. Wherever Under proposed new section SA the owner oil is handled the risk of spillage is present. of a ship or the occupier of a place on Liability must be accepted by all parties. land is liable to pay compensation for any Unlike the honourable member for Georges loss or damage to any property caused by River who favours the bill and agrees to its the discharge of oil from the ship or place, introduction but feels moved to offer a few plus any expenses incurred in preventing discordant notes-he is often out of tune or mitigating such loss or damage. Of even with his own party-I find r.othing course this suits our Liberal Party philo­ discordant about the measure. I commend sophy in that we assert that the polluter the bill to honourable members as a further should pay, not the community. Further, indication of the genuine concern of this the cost of production should include pol­ Government for environmental and anti­ lution control measures and should be pollution measures. MrMutton] Prevention of O!l [11 SEPT., 1973] Pollution Bill 749 Mr L. B. KELLY (Corrimal) [9.1]: I The breeding of the birds is affected by oil wish to express my appreciation for the discharged into the water. A newspaper has introduction of this measure by the Govern­ reported that men from fishing trawlers ment. There is no question that the Govern­ operating from Wollongong harbour claim ment has been limited in its powers related that pollution is forcing them even farther to punishment of polluters of navigable out into the sea in search of fish in com­ waters. When another pollution measure mercial quantities. The fishermen said that a was before this Chamber in 1969 I had the few years ago commercial quantities of fish opportunity to congratulate the responsible could be found close to the shore but now Minister on its introduction. Probably no pollution of the sea has forced the fish and matter in this State or in this nation is of the fishermen well offshore. This problem greater concern to the general public than affects not only the natural environment as oil pollution of navigable waters. The it applies to birds and other animal life but Government can express its concern legis­ also commercial fishing activities. latively only for waters within its territorial . Man has a marked capacity for self-decep­ limits. twn. He forgets that he is part of nature I represent a coastal electorate. From and generally ignores his responsibility re­ time to time I am concerned when lated to protection of the environment. This oil drifts in from the ocean to the surfing measure will ensure that consciences are beaches of my electorate, causing a great pricked when oil is transferred from tankers deal of inconvenience to the public. Nothing to land and when waste is discharged into is more distressing than to see birds or fish the open sea. Governments must maintain destroyed by this menace. Beaches on the continual vigilance in respect of this prob­ South Coast are tourist attractions and it is lem and should introduce legislation to en­ important that with Port Kembla so close, sure that man does not continue to pollute. where there are oil storage depots and oil It will be necessary to subject pollution legis­ is loaded and unloaded, stringent controls lation to frequent review in order that the should apply. Various types of oil are penalties are kept large enough to deter man carried by tankers. They include lubricating, from polluting. diesel, furnace and crude oils. The inter­ Article 7 of the Convention suggests that national conventions of 1954 and 1962 laid water ballast should be avoided as far as down strong guidelines and the Common­ possible, but ships use water as ballast and wealth of Australia is a party to those sometimes discharge it into the open ocean. conventions. After vessels unload at Port Kembla they For a long time Alan Sefton, a keen fill their tanks with sea water and perform naturalist in the Wollongong area, bas ex­ a tank-washing process. When the slurry is pressed concern about the effect of oil discharged into the open sea it is offensive pollution on seabird life. As a member of for it carries considerable quantities of oil. the Illawarra Natural History Society, for Each tank of a tanker is, in effect, a large gravity separator. As the oil rises in the tank many years he and other ornithologists the clean water below it can be pumped out. have been tagging birds in order to follow The normal procedure is for the oil to be their movements. Reports he has received pumped from tank to tank so that when the from other countries established that some washing process is completed the vessel has birds travel long distances. Mr Sefton has a tank carrying a large percentage of oil to been disturbed to find many different bird water and the remaining tanks carry clean species covered with oil that has been dis­ water. When a vessel returns to harbour it charged into the open ocean. Wherever is desirable that the contents of that par­ possible the oil is cleaned from these birds ticular tank should be discharged for satis­ factory disposal. If the contents of that in order that they will survive. tank were discharged into the open ocean The five islands off Wollongong known to save time, it would drift ashore with the locally as the Five Islands are breeding material spreading along the beaches and grounds for gulls, terns and. other bird life. affecting marine life. 750 Prevention of Oil [ASSEMBLY] Pollution Bill Satisfactory methods must be devised for ships discharge oil in the territorial waters combating illegal or accidental discharge of of other nations, those countries will be ex­ oil. That is where responsibility falls heavily pected to advise Australia of the offence. on the Maritime Services Board. Oil is There is a problem in that ships from valuable and income is derived from it. countries that are not signatories to the More funds should be made available to the Convention could be travelling in our terri­ Maritime Services Board in order that it may torial waters and those countries will not establish satisfactory forces to combat dis­ be bound in any way to observe the articles charges. Solvent emulsions are available to of the Convention. treat discharges into the open sea. They I trust that everything possible will be hold the oil in permanent suspension. Even­ done to ensure that the Maritime Services tually the oil breaks up and falls to the Board of New South Wales is equipped with it is known that when seabed. However, all the necessary materials to combat oil there has been an accidental spillage of oil discharges, whether accidental or otherwise, on navigable waters, ships have passed back­ and that as far as possible the board will wards and forwards through the oil dis­ protect our waters, our beaches and our charge until it breaks up and becomes sus­ coastline. pended in the salt water. It dissipates and eventually falls to the bottom of the ocean. Mr VINEY (Wakehurst) [9.13]: The I am pleased to see that the bill provides honourable member for Georges River, in for a substantial increase in penalties. When his usual style, has attacked the decisions an amending bill was introduced in 1969, of those in authority who are required to the penalties provided in section 6A were impose penalties under an Act of Parlia. increased to $2,000. It is proposed by the ment. He implies that magistrates who hear bill to increase the penalties for offence cases involving pollution by oil spillages under that section to $50,000. That is a have not been imposing adequate penalties. substantial increase, and it should be. a de­ I remind the honourable gentleman that terrent to anybody in the industry who magistrates are trained officers, and are ac­ might be inclined for some reason to dis­ customed and willing to listen to the parties charge oil into the ocean. The extent of on both sides. They have appearing before the penalty will act as a reminder also that them, to assist in making a full inquiry, per­ the utmost care must be exercised when sons who are in the same profession as the oil is being discharged from a vessel. honourable member for Georges River. Reference has been made to a recent de­ Mr F. J. WALKER: On a point of order. cision by a magistrate to impose a fine of $150 for the offence of discharging 5,000 The honourable member for Wakehurst is gallons of oil into Duck Creek. That pen­ misinterpreting what I said. I stated that alty is in stark contrast with the penalties magistrates have no power to impose that could be imposed on any person under heavier penalties under the existing legisla­ this legislation, even if the discharge tion. I did not imply what the honourable were accidental. I support the bill. I know member for Wakehurst has suggested. that waters beyond the 3-mile limit will be under the control of the Commonwealth Mr AcTING-SPEAKER (Mr MAHONEY): Government, and that article 10 of the Order! No point of order is involved. relevant Convention will require the Com­ monwealth Government to take action Mr VINEY: The implication of the hon­ against any vessel discharging oil up to 150 ourable member for Georges River was that miles from the coastline. If the oil happens this was not good enough and that all such to be discharged by the ship of another cases should go to the Supreme Court. I country, the Commonwealth will have to remind honourable members that although advise that country, if it is a signatory to a number of amendments are proposed to the Convention, to take action against the the Act, and that a number of amendments vessel concerned. Conversely, if Australian have been made previously, subsection (2) Mr L. B. Kelly] Prevention of Oil [11 SEPT., 1973] Pollution Bill 751 of section 4 of the Prevention of Oil Pollu­ Mr VINEY: That statement was in rela­ tion of Navigable Waters Act, 1960, has tion to the standard of the water in Parra­ not been amended. That subsection is in matta River. The honourable member for the following terms: Georges River interjected and said that a Any discharge of oil, or of any mixture Labor government introduced the original containing oil, onto or into any lands or bill in 1960. That is quite right. I am waters, or any structure or thing, having the sure that after so many years in govern­ result that the whole or any part of such oil ment the Labor Party had developed a or mixture containing oil eventually enters any waters within the jurisdiction, is for all pur­ guilty conscience about the action it took poses under this Act a discharge into such in 1954 to appropriate a golf course and waters within the jurisdiction of the said oil public land known as "Carnarvon" and or mixture containing oil, or of so much of to sell it to Petroleum and Chemical the same as enters the said waters within the jurisdiction. Corporation (Australia) Limited and to permit an installation of the sort that Offences of varying degrees of magnitude now exists on the foreshores of the Parra­ are prescribed. Honourable members may matta River. Six years later,. in 1960, the be aware of a publication called Zoot, which Labor Government thought that it had better is a children's newspaper. The latest edi­ do something to restrain these people from tion contains a most interesting story writ­ discharging pollutants into navigable water. ten by a 12-year-old student who is con­ The official statistics show that in 1967, at cerned with protection of the environment. the confluence of Duck Creek and the upper He observed that water used to wash cars reaches of the Parramatta River, the dis­ at service stations runs into stormwater solved oxygen content averaged 24 per drains, and ultimately finds it way into tidal cent, which was not a satisfactory figure. waters. I suggest that such an incident creates an offence under the Act, for tidal Mr F. J. WALKER: On a point of order. water is navigable water. This is the sort The honourable member for Wakehurst is of thing that is happening along the Parra- dealing now with the dissolved oxygen con­ matta River valley. Oil is being permitted tent of the water in the Parramatta River. The House is dealing with oil pollution of to find its way from service stations into navigable waters. All honourable members this navigable water. Are these all to be know that oil floats on water. Therefore, cases for the Supreme Court in the first I submit that the dissolved oxygen content instance? of any water has nothing to do with oil pollution. The comments now being made Mr F. J. WALKER: Yes. by the honourable member for Wakehurst are not relevant to the bill. Mr VINEY: Typically of the honourable member for Georges River, he wants to Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! There has take a sledge hammer to crack a nut. been much wide-ranging discussion on this measure, and although basically the bill does Mr JACKSON: The penalties being im­ seek to prevent, remove or reduce pollu­ posed by magistrates are inadequate. tion of navigable waters by oil, every hon­ ourable member who has spoken in the Mr VINEY: I thought that the honour­ debate has dealt with facts other than oil able member for Heathcote would be the pollution. I am not a chemistry student and I do not know whether the point made last person to criticize magistrates' deci­ by the honourable member for Georges sions. [Quorum formed.] Another point River about the dissolved oxygen content of that arose in the debate came up in a state­ water is correct. However, I ask the hon­ ment made by the honourable member for ourable member for Wakehurst, if he in­ Yaralla. tends to refer to this matter, to deal with Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! There is it only briefly, and then to confine himself too much audible conversation in the House. strictly to oil pollution. 752 Prevention of Oil [ASSEMBLY] Pollution Bill Mr VINEY: Mr Deputy-Speaker, I New South Wales could be doing a lot thought I had been referring to the matter more in relation to controlling the effects of before the House in that I was talking about oil spillage and pollution if more assistance pollution of tidal water. The Parramatta were received from the federal Government. River is a tidal stream. The area about which I refer not only to the present federal I was speaking is part of this tidal water. Oil Government but also to the previous federal pollution is related to the dissolved oxygen Government which turned a deaf ear to content of water because it affects marine requests from the New South Wales Govern­ life and marine life has a bearing on the ment for special assistance to industry by oxygen content of the water. The honour­ way of taxation allowances in respect of the able member for Georges River contradicted installation of equipment which had a some statements made by the honourable bearing only on pollution control especially member for Yaralla in regard to an improve­ related to oil spillage. The McMahon federal ment in standards of control of oil pollution Government and Liberal-Country party in the Parramatta River. I should like to put governments before that refused to listen to before the House an item published in The requests from this Government. However, Advertiser on 30th August last, showing a industry did enjoy some benefits from invest­ bird sanctuary in the Shell refinery at Clyde. ment allowances. Now those allowances have The honourable member for Corrimal has been taken away. Australia has some of the spoken of the damage that oil can do to toughest laws in the world applying to oil birds that breed on the South Coast. pollution, oil spillage, and pollution general­ .[Quorum formed.] ly. Oversea industries not subject to the same kind of strict control and discipline as The article in the Parramatta local paper Australian industries are able to send their is clear evidence of the results achieved by products to Australia and enjoy a 25 per this Government. The photograph accom­ cent tariff reduction. At the same time the panying this article shows birds flying about New South Wales Government is, through the refinery and the story refers to a variety its tough laws, forcing industry to carry in­ of birds living in the swamp. The standard creased costs without any assistance from of control of oil pollution affecting the the federal Government. Parramatta River has been greatly enhanced by the action of this Government. Statistics Mr HAIGH: What about the swinging buoy relating to Duck Creek and dealing with oil· in Botany Bay? pollution show that in 1957 the upper Parramatta River had a dissolved oxygen Mr VINEY: The honourable member for content of 24 per cent whereas in 1973 the Maroubra in his slur directed towards the average content was 51 per cent. When oil Maritime Services Board referred to a and water emulsify the dissolved oxygen swinging buoy in Botany Bay. My colleague content is affected, particularly when de­ the honourable member for Yaralla has tergent is present. In 1967 the dissolved shared his notes on this subject with me and oxygen content in Duck Creek was running I shall bring out a point he did not have between 0 per cent and 20 per cent-usually time to make. The honourable member for closer to 0 per cent. Now it is 27 per cent, Maroubra referred to the swinging mooring but still that is not good enough. This Gov­ and its efficiency, and to the proficiency and ernment's objective is to increase the dis­ integrity of the Maritime Services Board. solved oxygen content of that waterway to The single buoy mooring in Botany Bay is 60 per cent. Recently, we have heard great specifically designed to be used in circum­ stories of what has happened in the River stances when conventional mooring cannot Thames where fish have returned after many be employed. The principle is that whereas years absence. The objective of the Port of fixed point moorings hold a ship in a vulner­ London Authority is to get the dissolved able position, a single point mooring allows oxygen content of the River Thames up to it, to swing, head· into the waves, and so the 10 per cent. berth can be· used. safely when' other berths Prevention of Oil [11 SEPT., 1973] Pollution Bill 753 cannot. In this way the ship can continue to on these matters. I have not heard him argu­ discharge its cargo, but should circumstances ing a case in the federal Parliament in an warrant it the ship is able to quit the endeavour to gain taxation concessions for mooring quickly and proceed to sea. The industries that incur expenditure in their honourable member for Maroubra attempted attempts to control pollution and oil spill­ to slander the Maritime Services Board. age. If he has said anything it must have been in a very soft whisper. Mr HAIGH: In some circumstances the single buoy mooring cannot be used. {Interruption] Mr VINEY: The honourable member Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! The hon­ knows full well that circumstances will arise ourable member for Wakehurst has the call. in Botany Bay when the buoy may not be used. There have even been times when, due Mr VINEY: I conclude by saying that to peculiar weather conditions, ships moored this bill is worth while. The penalties. con­ in Sydney Harbour have had to weigh tained in it are commendable, as are its anchor and proceed to sea. Returning to oil provisions which relate to whether or not a pollution and its control in Australia, I com­ case is to be heard by a magistrate or in the mend Opposition members to read an article Supreme Court. I refuse to accept the sug­ published recently in the Sydney Morning gestion that the magistrates, having heard Herald describing conditions in the Medi­ all the evidence, are soft and incapable of terranean Sea and suggesting that the Medi­ making a correct decision. I support the bill. terranean basin is dying. Apparently 285,000 tons of garbage and putrescent mat­ Mr WADDY (Kirribilli), Minister for ter are discharged annually from Italy into Youth and Community Services [9.29], in the Mediterranean Sea. That does not take reply: From the fairly lengthy debate on into account other Mediterranean countries. this bill it is clear that even Opposition Because the Mediterranean Sea may change members support it in most areas, though it its waters only through the Straits of Gib­ has been said that a number of amendments ralter it takes eighty years for a complete will be moved in Committee. This bill com­ water change in that sea. plements most of the features of the Com­ monwealth Act. However, in some respects, That situation may be related back to the it goes a long way further than the Com­ position in Austral.ja, which is imposing dis­ monwealth legislation. The honourable ciplines on industry far tougher than those member for Maroubra, leading for the Op laid down by other countries. Industry in position, said that the Commonwealth Act Australia must carry the cost of those dis­ has done this and has done that. I remind ciplines. For example, it is costing the Shell honourable members that the Common­ oil company $3 million to take action to wealth Act relates only to ships. This bill prevent water polluted with oil from leaving goes much further than that. its land-based complex and entering the Opposition members do nothing but talk: Parramatta River. However, the company they do plenty of that but they do not receives no concession for its efforts from produce the goods. I propose to point out the federal Government. Other industries a couple of areas in which there is a lack of appreciation of what the bill contains. must carry these costs too. Apparently the One of the matters about which the hon­ federal Government does not care abouf ourable member for Maroubra was calling pollution control. It even protects oversea out concerned the number of prosecutions industries by introducing a 25 per cent drop that have been launched, and I sh:'lJI give in tariffs. him the relevant figures if he wishes to have them. Since 1960, 143 prosecutions have Before the last federal elections a Jot been launched, 122 of which were snccess­ was said by Mr Whitlam and those who are ful and 21 unsuccessful. Since 1970-and now his Ministers about pollution. The these figures are included in the total Hon. Moss Cass is now strangely silent number-94 prosecutions have been 48 754 Prevention of Oil [ASSEMBLY] Pollution Bill

launched, 87 of which were successful and Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! Gentle­ 7 unsuccessful. Comparing the 94 prosecu­ men, there is too much audible conversa­ tions launched between 1970 and 1973 with tion. The Minister is to be heard in silence. the 143 in the past thirteen years makes a fairly big impact upon one. I understand Mr JACKSON: That will be good. that they are the figures the honourable member for Maroubra asked for, so I have Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! I call the produced them for him. honourable member for Heathcote to order for the third time. Mr HAIGH: What about the number of The honourable member for Burwood inter­ spillages? jecting, Mr WADDY: The honourable member Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! I call the for Maroubra asked for the number of pro­ honourable member for Burwood to order. secutions that have been lodged. He brought up a case that came before the court and Mr WADDY: I want to emphasize the said that this was one incident that happen­ fact that for safety reasons there is a limit ed but was not reported. However that to when a single-point mooring can be used. spillage took place the year before: The There are times, particularly in Botany Bay, honourable member referred only to the when it is essential in the interests of safety court case, not to the date of the actual that ships put to sea. That position is not spillage. The position has been checked peculiar to Botany Bay; it is something that and they are the facts. happens in many harbours throughout the The honourable member also had a lot world. I do not know whether the hon­ to say about the question of the single­ ourable member for Maroubra is aware of point mooring, which the honourable mem­ the fact, but all those ships that are on the ber for Yaralla answered thoroughly. the single-point moorings are in a state of I should like to make the position clear readiness to go to sea at short notice in by emphasizing that the single-point moor­ the event of bad weather blowing up. Rather ing is specifically designed for use in cir­ than being critical of the Maritime Services cumstances where a conventional mooring Board for providing these moorings, he cannot be used. The principle is-and I would do better to give the normal acknow­ do not think the honourable member for ledgment to a board that has provided a Maroubra appreciates it-that whereas a worthwhile facility that is usable in most fixed point mooring holds a ship in a posi­ conditions. I say usable "in most condi­ tion vulnerable to wind and sea, a single­ tions" because no one in the world has yet point mooring allows it to s,wing head on provided moorings that can be used in all to the waves; the berth can be used safely circumstances-not in any harbour any­ when other berths would not allow this to where. This highlights some of the irre­ be done. Anyone who has had anything to sponsible statements that have been made do with the sea will appreciate that there I believe, without a proper appreciation of is a limit-- what is contained in the bill. I turn now to what the honourable mem­ Mr HAIGH: The Minister has not even ber for Georges River had to say. He can­ seen it. not help being young-! grant him that­ Mr WADDY: Why does the honourable but he can help being personal and offen­ member for Maroubra not tell the truth? I sive. Of course, that only stems from his inferiority complex and lack of knowledge. have been out to it. I asked the honourable It is rather a shame that the honourable member not to make stupid statements. member wanted to get personal with me [Quorum formed.] I was saying that and began throwing off about my having a this-- bad back. I am sorry I have a bad back: I [Interruption] got it trying to make the world a better Prevention of Oil [11 SEPT., 1973] Pollution Bill 755 place for people like the honourable mem­ some time. Second, the concept is a com­ ber. I cannot help the fact that I got my pletely different principle from vicarious bad back while on active service. liability, and third, vicarious liability is dif­ ferent from absolute liability. In regard to The honourable member for Georges River the first point, the currency of the concept interjecting, of enterprise liability among reasonably in­ Mr WADDY: Why don't you be quiet? formed local lawyers, it is referred to in You have had your offensive little say. The several places in the successive editions of honourable member ought to digest some Professor Fleming's standard textbook on advice that was handed out to me by a the law of torts, including the first edition former Premier of this State about the time pub!ished in 1957, when Professor Fleming I first became a member of this House. was dean and professor of law at Canberra I have never forgotten that lesson. The University College. One would not think honourable member should try to remem­ it necessary to have to tell a man of law ber it for I have always appreciated it. The where to go to look it up. Hon. R. J. Heffron, then the Premier of Mr JACKSON: Mr Deputy-Speaker, I draw New South Wales, called me over before your attention to the state of the House. I became a member of this House and said: "John, I want to give you one Mr McGINTY: There is no need to count. piece of advice. Make sure when you are in Parliament that people laugh with you, Mr DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Order! I am not at you." It would do the honourable checking the numbers in the House, which member for Georges River good to remem­ I am entitled to do before I ask for the ber that little piece of advice instead of quorum bells to be rung. Ring the quorum being a childish little fellow and not very bells. [Quorum formed.] knowledgable in the law, despite his de­ Mr WADDY: I was just saying that it is gree. I have had checked some of the a pity that the honourable member for matters mentioned by him in his speech. Georges River did not bother to check the I got the legal experts to have a look at his references on this question of enterprise remarks. I do not claim to be a legal man liability. Another earlier reference to the -I never have and do not want to be­ concept occurs in the edition of the A us­ and I wanted to get some of the honourable tralian Law Journal of 26th April, 1956, in gentleman's statements checked out. The an article entitled "Individual Responsibility information I have obtained may be of some versus Enterprise Liability". Neither the interest to the honourable member. He may author of this article, who was then reader learn something from some of the experts in jurisprudence at the University of Wes­ who are not purely academic lawyers but tern Australia, nor the editors of the Aus­ persons who have practised in the field of tralian Law Journal considered that any law. footnote was necessary to explain the term I shall speak about the principle of enter­ to the ordinary reader. In any event, the prise liability. The honourable member for honourable member's lack of familiarity Georges River made a long ploy in this with current legal terminology is hardly debate about enterprise liability, and he relevant. The principle of enterprise liability started off again tonight on the same sub­ was fully explained in my second-reading ject. He informed the House that he knew speech-namely, that where some particular of no such concept as enterprise liability and kind of activity involves, by its essential that in our law the word is vicarious lia­ nature, a risk of serious damage, the burden bility, meaning absolute or strict liability. of compensation for that damage should be borne by those who choose to carry on the With the exception of his initial admission activity. of his own lack of knowledge, every element However much the honourable member of that statement is incorrect. First, the may be opposed to developments in the concept of enterprise liability has been law, he can hardly reject this proposition as reasonably familiar to active lawyers for newfangled; it dates at least from the case 756 Prevention of Oil [ASSEMBLY] Pollution Bill of Rylands v. Fletcher in 1868. The honour­ Mr F. J. WALKER: That is strict? able member pretends to know so much about the law but· he has made a fool of Mr WADDY: That is strict. One would himself and should keep quiet. He might have thought that, instead of trying to then learn something from someone who weaken that proposition by inappropriate knows nothing about the law. I admit that analogy, the honourable member would have I know nothing about the law. The honour­ applauded a provision that is so clearly able member claims that he knows some­ beneficial to the uninvolved citizen who thing about the law, but if he knows suffers damage. From what has been said something he should not try to mislead the honourable members will realize that House. vicarious liability is far indeed from absolute liability. I turn to his second inaccurate statement. The principle of enterprise liability is quite Having started with these various mis­ different from that of vicarious liability. conceptions, the honourable member for Vicarious liability is well enough known Georges River then proceeded to confuse and arises, for example, whenever a man the public law directed to punishment with allows someone else to drive his car. As an the civil law directed to compensation. To a abstract proposition in the civil law of tort, practising lawyer these legal systems vary in it means that one man represents another, every conceivable particular. Public law so that if a third party is able to satisfy a deals with persons who commit or are court that the representative has caused him deemed to have committed offences against injury or damage by negligence, compen­ society. These are made punishable by a sation may be awarded against the man court, after proceedings of a criminal nature represented. The whole point of difference which are usually brought by the State or is, of course, that under vicarious liability, a public authority. Civil law deals with the no compensation is payable unless negli­ right of the individual who has suffered gence is proved; whereas enterprise liability personal injury or damage to recover com­ gives a right of compensation to a person pensation. He does this by instituting civil who has suffered damage without his having proceedings brought on his own incentive. to show negligence. From the point of view To avoid quibbling I should probably point o~ protection of the ordinary citizen, the out that individual in this sense includes dtfference between vicarious liability and corporate bodies and the Crown, and that enterprise liability is enormous. damage includes expenses properly incurred. Let me give the example of a dozen small The principle of enterprise liability boats moored near an oil barge: the owners applies solely and entirely to civil liability find one morning that oil that has leaked and compensatory damages. To apply it through the hull of the barge and has so to the creation of public offences would be badly fouled their boats that all must be a complete denial of natural justice. If we cleaned down and repainted. Vicarious take the previous example of the moored liability gives the owners the right to sue oil barge, it is reasonable enough to say to the owner of the barge, but only if they are the owner: "You have chosen to carry on able to prove that the leak was due to ~ business that involves carrying bulk oil actionable negligence of some employee, or m barges and this naturally involves seri­ perhaps of the owner himself. Thus in 99 ous danger that the oil will escape and do out of a 100 cases vicarious liability gives damage. If this should occur you must pay the boat owners nothing; they have no compensation for the damage." It would chance in the world of proving negligence. be completely and utterly unreasonable to In fact, the leak might be the result of some say to him: "Although neither you nor unknown vessel colliding with the barge any employee of yours did anything wrong, during the night. On the other hand, enter­ some other vessel ran into your barge and prise liability means that in order to recover caused it to leak oil. This m!'!ans that you compensation from the owner of the barge have committed an offence against societY these small boat owners need show only that and you will be severely punished." That the oil escaped from it. is the difference. Mr Waddy] Prevention of Oil [11 SEPT., 1973] Pollution Biil 757 No sane government-and I emphasize but thinks he knows all about those things. sane-would legislate in the way the hon­ When he is shown up on these things it ourable member for Georges River sug­ can be seen that either he is a good-for­ gests. Accordingly, the bill applies enter­ nothing who deliberately misled the House prise liability only to those provisions that or he knows nothing about the law. He can relate to the payment of compensation and get up and say which it is. One or the expenses. That was made perfectly clear other is true. in my second-reading speech but the hon­ ourable member for Georges River did not It is obvious that the honourable mem­ choose to listen. He had already written ber for Georges River did not understand his speech and could not change it so the way in which the term jurisdiction was quickly. Apparently the honourable mem­ used in the Act or the bill. An interpreta­ ber had conceived the idea that the prin­ tion section such as section 4 does not ciple is supposed also to apply to the puni­ create any law; it merely explains the mean­ tive sections of the legislation. He gravely ing that various words have when they are drew attention to the fact that new sub­ used in the substantive provisions of the If section (2A) of section 7 will make it a Act. the honourable member reads the defence to a prosecution for the occupier principal Act he will see that the words of a pipeline to show that the discharge "the jurisdiction" is a collective term for of oil from the pipeline was not caused the waters into which the discharge of oil, knowingly, wilfully or negligently. Does directly or indirectly, constitutes an offence he really think that the occupier of a pipe­ under the Act. He will not find anywhere line should incur a penalty of up to $50,000, in the Act or in the bill any assertion that even if he proves that the oil escaped only the State of New South Wales has terri­ because, for example, an aeroplane crashed torial sovereignty over the bed of all the on top of the pipeline and broke it? Does waters in the jurisdiction as defined. In­ he really believe that? deed, this would be an astonishing thing to find in any specialized legislation of this What I have just said-and I admit that character. The position is that the original this is legal advice I took in view of the arrangement for complementary legislation seriousness of what the honourable member between the Commonwealth and the States for Georges River had to say-only under­ was that the Commonwealth would deal lines the fact that either the honourable with oil pollution by Australian ships on member has a complete lack of knowledge the high seas and the States would deal of the law, in which he professes to be an with oil pollution by any ships in the terri­ expert, or that he deliberately tried to mis­ torial sea, and in harbours, rivers and in­ lead the House in what he had to say. Hon­ land waters. That is the object of the com­ ourable members may take their pick. I plementary legislation. am generous enough to think that his re­ Accordingly, the original Act of this marks were prompted by a complete lack State defines the jurisdiction as "the sea of knowledge of the law. I have taken lying within the territorial limits, the ports the trouble to quote chapter and verse so and tidal rivers, and the inland navigable that he will be able to find my authority waters of New South Wales". No one should he choose to look. doubted at the time that this description Now I should like to talk about another was sufficient to include the sea within 3 matter on which he was so vocal-the nautical miles of the coast. However, as the honourable member states, opinions definition of jurisdiction. I have gone to have since been expressed, notably by Sir some trouble to obtain legal advice on this Garfield Barwick and Sir Victor Windeyer point also. I believe that is the proper thing in Bonser v. La Macchia, reported in to do: get legal advice and properly inform volume 43 of Australian Law Journal Re­ the House what is happening, rather than ports at page 275, that the territorial limits subject the House to the ramblings of a of New South Wales end at the coastline. young fellow who does not practise the law Both those learned judges pointed out that 758 Prevention of Oil [ASSEMBLY] Pollution Bill this contention did not prevent the State discharged-50 miles for tankers and as far from making laws having effect in the as practicable for other vessels-is not to coastal sea where the peace, order and good be the coast of Queensland but the outer government of the State so required. In perimeter of the Barrier Reef. The other fact Sir Victor Windeyer said at page 295: amendment limits the size of individual The power of a State legislature to make tanks in newly constructed tankers. Neither laws which operate upon persons, things and refers to pollution off the coast of New events beyond the State is not limited by three South Wales. miles of sea. It depends upon relationship to the State, not upon distance from it-or There is no danger that the Common­ whether the persons concerned, or their trans­ wealth will depart from the 1960 arrange­ actions, are related to the peace, order and good government of the State. ments made with the States, because to do so would be completely impracticable. The· The problem is thus purely verbal. There Commonwealth's Pollution of the Sea by is no doubt that the Parliament of New Oil Act, 1960, and the two Acts amending South Wales has power to make pollution that Act in 1965 and 1972, are all made of the sea within 3 miles of the coast an under the Commonwealth's external affairs offence. But if it describes that sea as the head of power. This means they must be territorial sea of New South Wales, and if confined to giving effect to the international the recently expressed opinions are estab­ convention, and that convention relates to lished in law-as to which various views the sea and to the control of contracting exist-the description will fail to include parties of their own ships. If the Common­ the area of sea which was intended and wealth were to legislate for the territorial there will be a gap in the legislation. Ac­ sea, in reliance on the convention, its juris­ cordingly a simple geographical measure of diction would stop at a series of imaginary distance from the coast is substituted in the lines drawn across the entrances of har­ definition to put the matter beyond doubt. bours and rivers and also it would have no It should be added that the whole situa­ punitive powers over pollution of the terri­ tion has long been well known to all marine torial sea by ships which are not owned in authorities, and in so far as the honourable Australia. The Commonwealth's Naviga­ member's statements are accurate they are tion Act No. 2 of 1970, the provisions of by no means novel to the legal advisers of which are imported in this bill, does not rest those authorities or the Parliamentary on the external affairs power, because no Counsel of the States. The honourable international convention on the subject is in member then claimed that two days pre­ force. Instead, this Act operates by amend­ viously the Prime Minister had stated that ment of the Commonwealth Navigation Act. the Commonwealth intended to pass legis­ This is another story, and to lawyers rather lation relating to oil pollution off the coast. a mystery story, but the States have tact­ This apparently refers to a press conference fully refrained from inquiry. at which the Prime Minister is reported to Once again, the ignorance of the hon­ have said that Cabinet had authorized legis­ ourable member for Georges River or his lation regarding an oil pollution convention. deliberate misleading of the House is high­ This report when published was checked lighted. He ought to study his law a little with the Commonwealth Department of before he stands up as a master of laws in Transport, and it seems the intention is to this House and tells us what law applies. When one gets to the real story, it is en­ legislate to authorize ratification of the 1971 tirely different. He has to get up and talk, amendments of the 1954 International Con­ whether he knows what he is talking about vention on Pollution of the Sea by Oil. or not. These amendments are very brief. One is Let me now turn to the remarks of the of great interest to Queensland, in that the honourable member for Georges River and "nearest land", which is relevant to the the honourable member for Maroubra on minimum distance at sea at which oily mix­ the penal provisions. Both honourable mem­ tures conforming to the convention can be bers said that the bill dealt only with the Mr Waddy] Prevention of Oil [11 SEPT., 1973] Pollution Bill 759 imposition of penalties. If they had taken -the lot. In his opinion, the punishments the trouble to look at the bill they would that have been imposed by the courts are have seen that it inserts in the existing Act inadequate. He does not know what the ten new sections, sections 7A to 7a and sec­ evidence was or what was involved in the tions 8A, 8B and 8c. The last two sections cases, but in his opinion the punishments are procedural. Of the other eight new sec­ were inadequate. Frankly, I do not think tions, seven are concerned with prevention, much of his opnion. I do not think it is that is, with various kinds of action taken worth listening to that kind of twaddle on before oil has entered the water so as to this responsible bill, which has been design­ ensure that it does not eriter the water. ed purely to preserve some of the environ­ The eighth new section, section 8A, creates ment in this State. The honourable member the very important right of private citizens wants to be sure about what he says instead to recover compensation for oil damage of indulging in twaddle. He could mislead without having to prove negligence. There me; that is not hard, for I am not a lawyer. is not one new provision in the bill which He could mislead 99 per cent of members is directed simply to punishing a person on his own side; that, too, would not be because oil has been spilt, and the only hard. But he should be sure that he is right amendments in this connection are the up­ when he gives an opinion, because we can grading of fines. There is already a great check on it. On two important matters he deal of legislation directed to the preven­ has been shown to have no appreciation of tion of oil spillage. One example is section them or to have been deliberately mis­ 13 of the present Act restricting the trans­ leading. fer of oil at night; this goes back to the previous Act of 1927. Other very detailed Mr F. J. WALKER: That is a matter of port procedures to ensure the safe handling opinion. of oil are set out in the Ports Authority (Inflammable Liquids and Dangerous Mr WADDY: I prefer to rely on proper Goods) By-laws, which were made by the legal opinion that I have received, not on board under the authority of the Inflam­ what the honourable member puts forward. mable Liquid Act of 1915, and have been He said that he had never heard of enter­ prise liability, I quoted two authorities that law since 1953. mention it. On matters in which the honour­ Once again there has been a complete able member ·is supposed to be an expert, I lack of understanding of the proper inten­ know whose opinion I prefer. The other tions of this bill. Let us look at some other members who took part in the debate made words criticized by the honourable member a worthwhile contribution because they were for Georges River. In his usual flowery lan­ genuinely interested in prevention of the guage, he said that a sloppy approach had pollution of waterways in New South Wales. been made by the use of the words "not I am delighted that they adopted a respon­ possible". These words were taken out of the Commonwealth Act, and this bill is com­ sible approach, and I thank them for it. I plementary to that legislation. If he wants commend the bill. to express a legal opinion, he should ·make Motion agreed to. it a worthwhile opinion. The opinion that he has expressed is not worth a crumpet. Bill read a second time.

As to the question of appearing before a IN COMMITTEE magistrate, the Parliamentary Counsel re­ commended this course to the Attorney- Clause 3 General. We believe that this is an essential Page 4 part of the measure. Another great phrase (ll) bJ IDaerting next after section 7 (2) tla used by the honourable member for Georges followidg new subsection :- (2A) Where the occupier of a pipeline is River was "in my opinion". He gave that charged with an offence under section 6 it opinion without having any evidence. He !0 shall be a defence to prove that the discharge of oil or mixture containing oil was not caused set himself up as judge, jury and magistrate knowingly, wilfully or negligently. 760 Prevention of Oil [ASSEMBLY] Pollution Bill Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) Mr WADDY: On a point of order. I have [10.1]: I move: already pointed out that this part of the That at page 4, all words on lines 26 to 32 bill has nothing to do with enterprise be left out. liability. It relates to an offence. Enter­ prise liability has to do with compensa­ The amendment proposes to leave out pro­ tion when something has happened. The new subsection (2A) of section 7 posed proposed new subsection relates to the com­ of the principal Act. This brings me to mission of an offence, and it is not at all the question of enterprise liability which I tied up with enterprise liability. mentioned previously. Before dealing with that, let me say that I am sad that the Min­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I must up­ ister has not got a sense of humour about hold the point of order. I ask the honourable the problems of his back and being father member to speak to the amendment. of the year. I thought what I said was funny. I meant it to be funny. I apologize Mr F. J. WALKER: I do not want to sincerely if he took exception to what I canvass your ruling, Mr Temporary Chair­ said. Some of his colleagues laughed, and man, but I am talking about the concept of I assure him that I was trying to be humor­ strict liability and what enterprise liability ous, although apparently I was unsuccess­ really means. I am suggesting that it should ful so far as he was concerned. In regard apply in these very circumstances. The to enterprise liability, I have been out of Minister says it does not, but the whole point law for a couple of years, and I accept of my amendment is that there should be that Fleming does state such a concept strict liability in a criminal law or public in his textbook. law situation where the occupier of a pipe­ line is charged with an offence. Here it is Mr WADDY: This has nothing to do with proposed that he shall have a defence if enterprise liability. the discharge was not caused knowingly, wil­ Mr F. J. WALKER: I am referring to fully or negligently. I am saying that there proposed new subsection (2A). should be no such defence, and that the liability should be strict. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr CoATEs): Order! The honourable member The airy-fairy expression enterprise lia­ must deal only with the part of the clause bility is not a common one. Although I that he suggests should be deleted. have been involved in legal matters for quite some time I did not know about it. Mr F. J. WALKER: I submit that this The Minister could quote only one text­ has everything to do with enterprise liability, book and one article in a law journal. Surely and that is why I am putting this submission. the Minister could do a little better than I am sorry if I have misled the House that if it is a common term. I am saying in any way. There are many authors on that there should be strict liability here. the law of torts, but I concede that Flem­ The Minister was speaking about enterprise ing is a great legal authority on torts liability in the context of a Rylands v. in Britain and he is certainly known here. Fletcher situation, which contradicts his I studied from his textbook when I was whole definition of enterprise liability any­ at the University of Sydney. If he used way. However, we are speaking about that term, it is familiar to someone, but it things that do not really matter. The issue must be an academic term; it is a term is whether a person who is the occupier of practising lawyers do not use-to my know­ a pipeline which discharges oil should be ledge, anyway. In any event, I accept that strictly liable in the sense that he has no there is such a term. Proposed new sub­ defence of not knowingly, wilfully or negli­ section (2A) provides a defence where the gently discharging the oil. I suggest that occupier of a pipeline can prove that the discharge of oil or mixture containing oil there should not be such a defence. What­ was not caused knowingly, wilfully or ever one may choose to call the liability, negligently. When the Minister talks about whether it be enterprise, vicarious or abso­ the concept of enterprise liability-- lute, it should be imposed. An occupier of Prevention of Oil [11 SEPT., 1973] Pollution Bill 761 a pipeline should have a strict duty im­ Under the provisions of the Liquor Act posed upon him by law to ensure that, if if some glasses are left lying about any oil or other deleterious material after a certain hour, the licensee may be escapes from the pipeline, he is liable. liable for a breach of the Act. There are probably 200 Acts in this State which pro­ Mr WADDY: Liable for what? vide for this sort of liability where, despite Mr F. J. WALKER: For an offence. the fact there is no real knowledge on the part of the alleged offender, because a ser­ Mr WADDY: Or for compensation? vant did something without any suggestion of wilful negligence, he could find himself Mr F. J. WALKER: He should be liable technically facing a charge and having to for an offence and for compensation. In appear before a magistrate or a judge. In other words, he should be liable both such a circumstance one could say to the criminally and civilly for what occurs. The court: "Strictly speaking under the letter of escape of oil from a pipeline is a serious the law I am liable, but these are the cir­ matter. In law it is generally impossible to cumstances. I ask that you do not record a be guilty of a criminal offence about which conviction against me. I wish the provisions you do not know. However, under criminal of section 556A of the Crimes Act to apply. law one can be guilty of a lot of things that Certainly I should not be fined $50,000, are not done wilfully. One could be guilty or even fined at all." of murder even though it might not be wil­ The judge or the magistrate in his wisdom ful in the purest sense of the word. As to would find the facts proved and not proceed negligence, one can be guilty of a lot of to a conviction because in the circumstances things that are not negligent in accordance the case should not proceed. The point I with the strict legal definition of the word. wish to make is that spillage of oil is such a The Opposition says that if a person is serious matter that there should be absolute the owner of a pipeline and oil spills out liability placed on people. If a person is as a result of something happening, the guilty there should be no excuse. If the owner ought to be liable. How liable he circumstances of the case are such that it ought to be is another question altogether. is not really the fault of the person who is In many areas of the criminal law strict the occupier of the pipeline that the oil has liability is applied which could result in a been spilt, he can go before the court, state finding of guilty. All that an accused would the circumstances and explain that they need to do would be to say, "True it is that mitigate what happened and suggest that he the Act says I am guilty, but it was not my should not be liable for a heavy penalty. In fault; I did not know about it. My em­ that situation I am sure that the court under ployee, Fred Smith, forgot to turn off a tap section 556A of the Crimes Act would not allow the matter to proceed to conviction. and the oil escaped." Or one could say, "Fred Smith forgot to put a certain pres­ Mr WADDY (Kirribilli), Minister for sure in a gauge and as a result there was Youth and Community Services [ 10.11]: The an oil spillage." A further argument could Government does not accept the amend­ be put forward that it was not really wil­ ment. The part of the clause .with which we ful; it was merely an accident that happens are concerned deals with offences and does on occasions in this sort of circumstance. not inhibit the ability of anyone who suffers There was nothing negligent about it. An damage to obtain compensation. There are attempt was made to do the work properly two entirely different aspects. Compensation and it just happened that the oil escaped. is not implied or covered by this part of the Although technically one may be crimin­ clause, which deals purely with the com­ ally liable, it may not call for the type of mittal of an offence. When the pipeline was penalty that would be imposed on some­ dredged up from the bed of Botany Bay not body who deliberately permitted the leak­ so long ago by contractors who were doing age of sump oil into Parramatta River. work for the· Maritime Ser\rices Board and 762 Prevention of Oil [ASSEMBLY] Pollution Bill oil was spilled, is it suggested that the owner Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) of the pipe should be held responsible for [10.15]: I intended to move a second that and should be prosecuted because he amendment to this clause relating exclusive­ is guilty of an offence? Surely that is not ly to courts of petty sessions. However, this suggested. amendment depended on the amendment that I was given leave to withdraw. There­ Mr F. J. WALKER: Someone has to be fore, instead of moving this amendment I liable. shall merely speak to the clause generally and suggest that the Minister look at my Mr WADDY: That may be so, but it is proposals with a view to having the bill not the person who owns the pipeline and amended in another place. What I wanted had nothing to do with the matter. He was to do was to provide in the bill that pro­ not operating the dredge: it was operated secutions for spillage of oil in navigable by someone else. If an aircraft crashes on waters should be taken only before the to a pipeline, would the honourable member Sl.1preme Court in its summary jurisdiction. for Georges River hold the owner of the We do not think that it is appropriate to pipeline responsible? That is not the Govern­ bring such actions in courts of petty ses· ment's concept of justice. The amendment sions. is not accepted. Our attitude is that the spillage of oil in Amendment negatived. navigable waters is such a serious matte1 that it should be dealt with in the Supreme Page 20 Court where there would be no question 21 18. (1) Proceedings for an offence against this about the power of the tribunal to impose Act or the regulations may be taken before a the maximum penalty. We fear the possi­ stipendiary magistrate sitting alone or before the bility of a department or a Minister run­ Supreme Court in its summary jurisdiction. ning dead on a particular prosecution by Mr F. J. WALKER (Georges River) bringing it before a court of petty sessions t10.13]: I move: where the maximum penalty able to be imposed would be only $2,000. We feel That at page 20, lines 26 and 27, the words there should never be any question of the "a stipendiary magistrate sitting alone or be­ maximum penalty of $50,000 not being fore" be left out. available. I shall not delay the Committee overmuch I realize that there will be many little ·on this aspect. I did discuss it in some detail matters, like service stations spilling oil, and at the second-reading stage. The bill pro­ probably in all circumstances a penalty of poses to insert a new section 18 in the Act, $2,000 would not be imposed, but on the and proposed subsection (1) reads: other hand it is open to a Supreme Court judge to impose a penalty of only one dollar ( 1) Proceedings for an offence against this if he feels so inclined. The only difference Act or the regulations may be taken before a stipendiary magistrate sitting alone or before between bringing proceedings in the two the Supreme Court in its summary jurisdiction. courts is that counsel's fees in the Supreme As I look at the provision now I realize that Court may be higher than those in a court of petty sessions, but there is not much to it: what I had proposed by way of amendment I have found that barristers tend to charge would defeat the point I wanted to make. the same fees in both jurisdictions. If there I shall have to withdraw the amendment. It is no great disadvantage in providing for had to do with proceedings for an offence these cases to be taken to the Supreme under this Act being taken before the Sup­ Court, there certainly is an advantage in reme Court in its summary jurisdiction. My ensuring that nobody runs dead, and that .amendment does not achieve what I had in · the maximum penalties will always be avail­ mind: it would have the opposite effect from able. For all those reasons I ask the Minister what I intended. to consider seriously the amendments I have Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. proposed, to discuss them with his officers, Oil Pollution Bill [11 SEPT., 1973] Adjournment 763 and to take action to amend the legislation over the past two years. Waterfront workers in another place. No great harm will flow employed on the sinter plant wharf are from the adoption of my proposals, but a grossly affected by it. If they were lot of good could come from it. handling a noxious cargo they would re­ The Minister has referred to the Com­ ceive penalty or disability rates. However, monwealth Act, However, that Act has no they are handling steel, a fairly clean cargo, effect in the Supreme Court of New South and do not qualify for penalties despite the Wales or in the courts of petty sessions of fact that they must contend with the high this State. The mere fact that there could fall out of iron ore dust which impreg­ be an inconsistency between the Common­ nates the skin. Even though the workers wealth law and this legislation does not have a bath or shower before leaving the worry me one bit. In my view, the New job, this material comes out later on their South Wales legislation would extend the pyjamas and bedclothes. law a lot further than the Commonwealth The waterside workers have each been Act could possibly do, simply because the provided with black nylon Ku Klux Klan Commonwealth has jurisdiction over a type hoods to protect their heads from this very narrow area. fall out. I put on now one of them to de­ Clause agreed to. monstrate to the Minister and to the House the obvious dangers of wearing this apparel ADOPTION OF REPORT in the hold of a ship. Bill reported from Committee without Many stoppages have occurred among amendment, and report adopted on motion by Mr Waddy. waterfront workers over the pollution and fall out problem at this location and re­ cently the three local members of this ADJOURNMENT House made an inspection on the job. It AIR POLLUTION IN PORT KEMBLA was a hot day and with the prevailing wind Mr WADDY (Kirribilli), Minister for blowing we could scarcely breathe. Water­ Youth and Community Services [10.20]: I front stoppages have caused concern to move: Australian Iron and Steel Company Limited. That this House do now adjourn. Pollution in the area is worsening, par­ ticularly around the premises of Electrolytic Mr RAMSAY (Wollongong) [10.20]: I Refining and Smelting Company and Aus­ should like to bring to the attention of the tralian Fertilizers Limited. Nearby is Port Government the problem of heavy pollu­ Kembla primary school which is badly tion and fall out in the Port Kembla area. affected by the pollution. The authorities I understand fully that in an area of indus­ have reported! the matter to the Minister trial activity such as Port Kembla there for Education and the Minister for Health. will be a certain amount of fall out and This school is only about 100 yards from pollution; it is unavoidable. However, the the Health Commission's monitoring equip- situation at Port Kembla is becoming alarm­ ment. Pollution and fall out at Port Kembla ing. I have raised this matter with the Mini­ ster for Health, who is extremely concerned has reached an alarming level. Parents and about it. The people of Port Kembla want citizens, teachers and students are extremely something done about it, particularly the concerned. Neither grass nor trees will grow fall out from the sinter plant of Australian in the school playground. Wollongong city Iron and Steel Pty Limited. It is in that council has suggested that the school be plant that iron ore dust is burned with coke resited but that would be a costly business. in the sinter process. My colleagues and I believe that instead In my twenty-five years' experience in in­ of resiting this school stern measures should dustry in that area I believe the pollution be taken to control the pollution. Families and fall out now to be worse than I have who reside in areas nearby are also adversely ever seen it. It has worsened considerably affected by the high level of pollution. 764 Adjournment [ASSEMBLY] Printed Questions and Answers

The high sulphur dioxide fallout is affect­ the problem to the notice of the Govern­ ing homes, gardens, lawns and the duco of ment. Last Friday I had a discussion with motor cars parked near the works. The Dr Bell, the director of the division to which situation worsened recently when Australian the honourable member referred. The effect Fertilizers Limited reopened its sulphuric of the pollution on the school children con­ acid making plant. It had been closed for the cerns him. The suggestion has been made past four years. I understand that over the that a medical examination be carried out past four years the company brought particularly of the school children and also sulphuric acid in from Tasmania. The situ­ of residents of the area. This was done ation has deteriorated and a beautiful city in the Cockle Creek district where checks is being despoiled, rendering it urgently were made of a variety of by-products and necessary to control the fallout and pollution physical damage flowing from conditions from the industries of Port Kembla. The similar to those described by the honour­ records of air pollution monitoring for 1972 able member. in metropolitan areas show that, with the exception of the Wollongong-Port Kembla Having worked in the area I am familiar area, dust deposition rates continue to fall. with this problem. The situation in Port In the Sydney metropolitan area 34 sites Kembla gives cause for serious concern be~ had values lower than those recorded in cause the prevailing north-easterly wind 1971, and 17 of these were significantly blows right across the whole area. The lower. Of the 20 sites which had increased chimney stack of Electrolytic Refining and values, only 4 were significantly higher. The ~melting Company has been increased to trend in Newcastle was similar to that of a considerable height in an effort to reduce as much as possible the nuisance of the the Sydney area, with 17 sites having lower values of which 8 were significantly reduced copper process. The request for a monitor in the vicinity of the sinter plant will be and 9 sites had higher values, with only one examined. I know that as a consequence of them being significantly higher. of the honourable member's previous repre~ In the Wollongong-Port Kembla area, 9 scntations, Dr Bell is considering what should sites had values which were lower than those be done particularly about the health as~ during 1971, and two of these were signifi­ pects. Any other information that can be cantly lower. However, 8 sites had increased made available will be communicated to the values, 6 of which were significantly higher. honourable member. I shall refer his re­ Those figures disclose a serious situation. At marks for immediate attention by the divi­ Shellharbour Road, Port Kembla there was sion of occupational health. a fall-out of insoluble solids of 24.9 grams a square metre a month, and at Military Motion agreed to. Road, Port Kembla, the figure was 13.8. The House adjourned at 10.30 p.m. fall-out of combustible matter at Shellhar­ bour Road, Port Kembla, was 5.3, the ash fall-out being 19.6. I ask the Minister whether he will place monitoring equipment PRINTED QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS near the sinter-plant wharf of Australian Iron and Steel Pty Limited. Further, I ask The following questions upon notice and the Minister to request the Government to answers were distributed. provide for the strict control of pollution in the area because of its serious effect on CAR PARKING AT RAILWAY STATIONS the residents of Port Kembla and Wollong­ Mr MALLAM asked the MINISTER FOR ong, particularly the men employed in in­ TRANSPORT-( 1) How many railway sta­ dustry. tions serviced by electric trains provide car Mr JAGO (Gordon), Minister for Health parking facilities for commuters? (2) [10.29]: I appreciate the case that has been Where are these railway stations located and made out by the honourable member for at which is a fee charged for the use of this Wollongong and the fact that he has brought facility? Printed Questions and Answers [11 SEPT., 1973] Printed Questions and Answers 765

Answer-(1) and (2) There are 54 rail­ many of these cases has there been more way stations, served by electric trains, where than one person charged? (c) How many car-parking facilities are provided on land of those persons charged have been con­ owned by the Public Transport Commission. victed and fined? (d) How many have re­ These stations are: Arncliffe, Bankstown, ceived gaol sentences? Beecroft, Belmore, Berala, Blackheath, Blacktown, Blaxland, Cabramatta, Camp­ Answer-The records of the Police De­ belltown, Campsie, Canterbury, Caringbah, partment are not maintained in a form Carlton, Carramar, Casula, Chatswood, which would permit the supply of the in­ formation sought. Cronulla, Dulwich Hill, Emu Plains, Fair­ field, Gordon, Gosford, Guildford, Horns­ by, Ingleburn, Jannali, Kingsgrove, Kirra­ CLEAN WATERS ACT, 1970 wee, Kogarah, Lakemba, Lawson, Lithgow, Mr F. J. WALKER asked the MINISTER Liverpool, Miranda, Panania, Parramatta, FOR HEALTH-( 1) Does his department in­ Point Clare, Punchbowl, Riverwood, Rock­ tend to classify waters pursuant to the pro­ dale, St Marys, Sefton, Sutherland, Tempe, visions of part III of the Clean Waters Turramurra, Waitara, Warrimoo, Warwick Act, 1970? (2) If the answer is in the Farm, Wentworth Falls, Wentworthville, affirmative when will the following waters West Ryde, Windsor and Woy Woy. be classified-(a) Parramatta River and its tributaries; (b) Georges River and its tribu­ With the exception of Parramatta and taries; (c) Hawkesbury River and its tribu­ Campbelltown, the land is made available taries; and (d) Cooks River? (3) How at a nominal cost to local councils, which long is the classification of all waters in operate the car parks subject to the proviso New South Wales expected to take? ( 4) that a time limit may not be imposed. As What staff is presently available to classify far as is known none of these councils waters? charges a fee for parking on land leased from the commssion. The sites at Parra­ Answer-(1) Yes. The Health Commis­ matta and Campbelltown are provided with­ sion of New South Wales is planning for in the goods yard areas and a small fee is the progressive classification of the waters charged. of New South Wales in accordance with the provisions of part 3 of the Act. Public Transport Commissioner, Dr R. S. Neilsen, is personally supervising a survey Part 3 provides that the commission may of all land owned by the commission along classify any waters by reference to an appro­ the main suburban lines to find further sites priate classification as specified in the Clean for commuter parking. As suitable car Waters Regulations, 1972. The objective parks are developed, their popularity will of each classification is to provide a stan­ influence the commission in deciding dard for ·the protection of waters in the whether-and where-to open further sites. notified area and to prescribe measures It is expected that $300,000 will be spent which should be adopted for these purposes. this year on tar-sealing and other works Studies have been proceeding to check the with Comonwealth financial assistance. This impact of these requirements in particular will enable the commission to increase areas as a prelude to their classification. greatly the availability of commuter parking After classification, dischargers will be re­ near railway stations and thus encourage quired to meet specified requirements under motorists to use rail travel. a licence system. This is a longer term plan provide by the legislation. It should be ASSAULTS UPON PERSONS appreciated that the legislation also provides Mr MALLAM asked the PREMIER AND for considerable control over pollution TREASURER-For each year since 1st Janu­ apart from the classification requirements. ary, 1965-(a) How many persons have Under the interim plan at present in opera­ been charged with assaulting a person not tion all new works are subject to conditional previously known to them? (b) In how approval with the object of adopting the 766 Printed Questions and Answers [ASSEMBLY] Printed Questions and Answers best practical means for reducing pollution. school? (2) Why are these courses not avail­ The Health Commission has this year ap­ able in similar circumstances to students proved, on the recommendation of the attending private and church schools? Clean Waters Advisory Committee, 37 Answer-(1) (a) The correspondence applications for the installation of pollution s:;hool provides assistance to government control works at an estimated total cost schools to enable them to offer subjects for of over $2,000,000. Existing dischargers which classroom instruction cannot be pro­ may also be directed to cease pollution or vided. All students so enrolled take the cor­ to take steps to reduce pollution where sat­ respondence studies as part of their course isfactory means are reasonably available to within their schools. (b) The correspon­ do so. During this year about 200 direc­ dence school assists the College of External tions have been issued for this purpose. Studies of the Department of Technical Edu­ (2) (a), (b), (c), (d). It is anticipated cation by providing for its students courses that Parramatta River, Cooks River and which they may require but are not Georges River will be classified this year, available at the college. Such students must or early 1974, and that Hawkesbury River not be attending schools either government will be classified in 1974. or non-government. ( 3) It is expected that the classification (2) The circumstances under which of the major water areas affected or likely students enrol with non-government to be affected by significant industrial and schools are not similar to those pertaining municipal discharges will be completed by to enrolments with government schools. the end of 1974. The extent to which this Parents who enrol their children with non­ can be done will depend on the recruitment government schools are choosing to do so of staff with suitable experience for this in preference to enrolment with a govern­ work. ment school, and to varying degrees can ( 4) The classification of waters is simply choose the non-government school which a statement of the standard of protection their children will attend. to be applied in a particular area. Staff of No such choice is available for the student the water pollution control branch of the division of occupational health and pollu­ enrolled with a government school; place­ tion control involved in the formulation of ment is determined by the area offices of the programmes, including classification, as education, such determinations being made well as the implementation of the pro­ generally on the place of residence of the gramme, comprise 13 engineers, chemists student concerned. The needs of individual and inspectors, apart from analytical and pupils are met either by placement in an office services. Increases have been sought appropriate school which may not be the in the number of officers involved in this nearest to the child's home, or by using the field in order to strengthen and expedite the facilities of the correspondence school. programme but it has been found difficult to recruit experienced staff. CASES OF SPINA BIFIDA Mr MALLAM asked the MINISTER FOR CORRESPONDENCE COURSES­ DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION HEALTH-For each year since 1st January, 1965-( 1) How many cases of spina bifida Mr DAY asked the MINISTER FOR EDu­ occurred? (2) What assistance was given to CATION-( 1) Does the correspondence these children or their parents by the New school operating within the New South Wales Department of Education provide South Wales Government? correspondence courses (a) to students at Answer-( 1) It is not known how many public schools which do not have that par­ cases of spina bifida occurred in the period ticular subject on the curriculum; and (b) mentioned as statistics on this disease are to private students who do not attend any not centrally registered. Printed Questions and Answers [11 SEPT., 1973] Sub Judice Rule 767

(2) There is no direct assistance as such Mr Cox: I want to raise a matter of given to children or their parents by the New privilege concerning rulings that have been South Wales Government. However, child­ given in this Chamber by yourself and by ren suffering from this condition receive Mr Deputy-Speaker concerning the sub assistance from many sources, most of which judice rule and its application to the Royal are financed with Goverr.;;.1ent assistance commission at present taking place into a or are entirely conducted by the Govern­ number of factors associated with the club ment. These sources of assistance include the movement in New South Wales. The fact public and mental retardation hospitals and that distresses me is that during a speech the special schools run by private bodies and I made in the debate on the motion for the Department of Education. In addition, the adoption of the Address in Reply a assistance is provided by such private bodies number of points of order were taken:. it as the New South Wales Society fer was submitted that I could not use the word Crippled Children and the Spastic Centre mafia, even if I used it in reference to a of New South Wales. case in Great Britain or, to extend the possibility a bit further, even in relation to an event in Iceland. The point I raise here is that a Royal commission is taking place at the moment, and a statement by 1fi.eg islatib.e J\ss.emhlg the head· of the Bally Manufacturing Cor­ poration, Mr William O'Donnell, was pub­ Wednesday, 12 September, 1973 lished in the metropolitan press today. He said that he will fly to Australia to answer Royal Commission into Alleged Criminal Activities in charges that his poker machine company Clubs-Questions without Notice-Daily News Re­ port (Privilege)-Prevention of Oil PollQtion of is being manipulated by the mafia. Navigable Waters (Amendment) Bill (third read­ ing)-Limestone Minin!: at Bungonia Gorge Mr JAao: Where is the matter of privi­ (Adjournment)-Strata Titles Bill (lnt.)-Registrar­ General Bill (Int.)-Cudal Dam Bill (Int.) Gov­ lege in that? ernment Guarantees (Amendment) Bill (second reading)-Veterinary Surgeons (Amendment) Bill Cox: The matter of privilege is that (second reading)-Pay-roll Tax (Amendment) Mr Bill (second reading)-Supply Bill (Int.) (second in the speech that I wanted to make to reading)-Totalizator (Off-course Betting) Amend­ ment Bill (second reading)-Education (Amend­ parliament I was seeking to deal with Mr ment) Bill (second reading)-Adjournment (Gra­ · O'Donnell and to cover the situation, but I ham Huxley Constructions Pty Limited-Ballina High School Assembly Hall). was denied an opportunity to do so. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I do not think Mr SPEAKER (THE RoN. SIR KEVIN that I was in the chair when this occurred, ELLIS) took the chair at 2.30 p.m. but is not the honourable member for Auburn really canvassing the ruling of who­ Mr SPEAKER offered the Prayer. ever was in the chair at the time? Mr Cox: No. ROYAL COMMISSION INTO ALLEGED CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES IN CLUBS: Mr JAao: It is exactly what the honour­ SUB JUDICE RULE able member is doing. Mr Cox: On a matter of privilege. Mr SPEAKER: Order! If honourable Mr SPEAKER: Order! Does the honour­ members will permit me to handle this able member for Auburn have to raise a matter, I shall see that it is dealt with in an point of privilege now, or could the matter orderly fashion. wait until after question time? Mr Cox: I can refer to the ruling made Mr Cox: It is up to you, Mr Speaker. I by the Chair when a Minister was speaking would be satisfied to raise it after question in this Chamber and be used the words time. "Royal commission". You, Mr Speaker, immediately ruled that the Minister could Mr SPEAKER: We shall deal with it now. not use that expression.