COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO ALLEGATIONS OF POLICE INEFFICIENCY IN KHAYELITSHA AND A BREAKDOWN IN RELATIONS BETWEEN THE COMMUNITY AND POLICE IN KHAYELITSHA PHASE ONE

Kevin Cole and Mr. Moller

Date: 11 February 2014 Source: Pages 2528-2563 of Commission transcript

MR KATZ: I will lead Mr Cole and the reason Mr Moller is there is simply when it comes to question time, there may be certain questions which are better answered by Mr Moller rather than Mr Cole. COMMISSIONER: We are becoming quite practiced at this having two witnesses on the stand at the same time. I think it’s probably the best way to go forward, at the end of the day we are trying to find information a nd it’s helpful. MR KATZ: And I remember at the inspection in loco there were certain questions that the Commission wanted answers to and Mr Moller is in a better position to answer that compared to that of Mr Cole. COMMISSIONER: Okay, excellent. Well welcome Mr Cole and Mr Moller, thank you very much again for facilitating our inspection in loco last week and you are welcome to the proceedings at the Commission. You will be aware that these proceedings are public and that the content of what is said here may be made public both in the media and in the Commission’s report, and you have no objection to both your identities and the testimony you give being made public, is that correct? MR COLE: That’s correct. COMMISSIONER: Both of you, thank you. I will pu t both of you under oath because if you’re going to answer questions Mr Moller that seems easy, although it’s very clear to the Commission that the primary testimony is going to come from Mr Cole, so if I could start with you Mr Cole. Do you have any obje ction to taking the oath? KEVIN COLE: (Sworn States) MR MOLLER: (Sworn States) COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much, Mr Katz. EXAMINATION BY MR KATZ: Thank you Madam Commissioner. Mr Cole you are an employee of the City of Cape Town and you are employed i n the City Safety and Security Directorate, is that correct? MR COLE: That’s correct. MR KATZ: Can you briefly explain to the Commission your background in law enforcement and safety and security generally, when did you start, how long have you been doing it and in giving the evidence could you just explain your contact and your experience with CCTV camera technology. MR COLE: Thank you. I’ve been in the employment of the City of Cape Town within the safety and security directorate since 1987. And since crime initiative in 1999 introduced CCTV cameras into the CBD of Cape Town and at this time I became involved in CCTV working as camera response unit, responding to incidents picked up on CCTV within the CBD in Cape Town itself. In early 2000 the City expanded with their CCTV footprint and they put an extra 72 cameras within the CBD of Cape Town and early 2001 we even extended our footprint to the South Eastern side of the City, namely Manenberg, Vanguard Drive and Athlone. At that time I then became in volved in CCTV, I applied and I was successful in becoming a supervisor in a control room of the CCTV, which was then based in Goodwood. I am currently a superintendent with the Metro Police Service which monitors CCTV, which has a department also CCTV, and I manage the operations side in Goodwood for Metro Police. MR KATZ: Mr Cole on the 3 rd of February this year, that’s last Monday the Commission conducted an inspection in loco at the City CCTV camera unit in Goodwood, and you took the Commission thr ough the room in which that operation is conducted, can you remember that? MR COLE: Yes I do. MR KATZ: And then you made an affidavit to the Commission which has been supplied to the commission shortly before that. Perhaps you could just take the Commission through what it was that you explained to the Commission at the inspection in loco, describe the room, describe how the operation works in that CCTV camera unit room, in Goodwood. MR COLE: Thank you. At the operation centre at the CCTV control room in Goodwood we have +- 150 cameras that we monitor, within the City, including Khayelitsha. In Khayelitsha we have 16 CCTV cameras of which 10 is working. At the centre we have banks of consoles which is set up with screens that monitor, that has cameras on them. In the control room we have operators, there are either two or one operator that sits at a consol which monitors twelve cameras. If an incident happens on any of the consoles the operator will then telephone supervisor which sits in the control room, just off the CCTV consoles and he would report the incident to the supervisor who in turn draws the camera in on his section of the control room which he then can see exactly what is happening. Whatever incident takes place he would then notify an appropriate response to the incident, be it a crime we would then send or ask a SAPS official, which is in the our control room also to send a response to the specific incident, be it a by -law we would then send a law enforcement officer, which is also pr esent, or a traffic official if its an accident, or a metro police officer who is also present in the control room. MR KATZ: Perhaps you could just explain, do you personally interact with the SAPS official or is it somebody else that does so, and who is the SAPS official, what rank is that person, how many SAPS officials are in the CCTV camera unit room and where do they sit? MR COLE: Okay, at the control room we have a warrant officer, Alex Fourie, which oversees four shifts of two people, they work on shift basis, so there’s always a police official on duty, they work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, the two people who is on duty at a specific time is two police clerks and they liaise with the police vehicle on the ground, so if something happens they would on the police radio they would call for a police vehicle to respond to a scene. MR KATZ: Mr Cole before turning to your experience in relation to SAPS and SAPS officials do you – perhaps you can inform the Commission why is it that there are only ten of the sixteen Khayelitsha cameras that are working as of today? MR COLE: The six that are off it’s either that there is cable that has been cut or optic fibre cables thinking that it is copper cables that are cut, so most of our cameras, or all the cameras that are off are actually off because of vandalism and cable theft. MR KATZ: And are there plans for these six let’s call it non -working cameras to be put back on line at any time in the future, and you can speak to all six of them or any of them as you so choose? MR COLE: Yes. At the moment there are three cameras within Site C that work as a unit if a cable gets cut all three of them will go off, so that is in the process of being fixed, because it’s a fibre cable that is being sourced. The other is two that are off due to power issues, long metres of cable, power cable that has been taken out of the ground, that also needs to be sourced. MR KATZ: Who took the cables out of the ground? MR COLE: It’s cable theft, we don’t know who took the cable out there. MR KATZ: I see and you’ve left out one camera now, you’ve given an explanation for five, I think there’s one that’s missing? MR COLE: That’s the one that’s also got a fibre problem that’s close to the station, the railway station, it’s also a fibre issue which is a lso in the process of being fixed. MR KATZ: So all six in the process of being fixed? MR COLE: There’s one that has been vandalised three times, we actually looking at other options there because of a power cable that keeps getting stolen, so there’s other options that we are looking into, so that we can get that camera up too. MR KATZ: And if I remember correctly there was some issue with Eskom on one of the cameras, can you remember that or is that in Mr Moller’s knowledge? MR COLE: I think that’s more Mr Moller’s knowledge. MR KATZ: Fine, now in your affidavit that you supplied to the commission you did not paint a negative picture of your relationship with SAPS, would you say that’s a fair conclusion to be drawn from your evidence by way of affidavit ? MR COLE: That is fair ja. MR KATZ: So in fact what you say is you conclude in paragraph 22 of your affidavit to say “my general impression is that SAPS utilises their technology in a positive manner” and then you give a particular example in paragraph 23 of the murder of a young boy who where the incident took place at the corner of Lansdowne and Palmer Road in Khayelitsha. Can you remember saying something about that in your affidavit? MR COLE: Yes I do. MR KATZ: Perhaps you can just assist the Com mission to explain what your – what type of interaction your unit has had with SAPS in general, and in particular what happened with that particular young boy and his murder. MR COLE: Thank you. At that time there was a gang fight and the little boy was murdered at the corner of Palmer and Lansdowne Road, the incident was caught on camera. MR KATZ: Did you personally see it? MR COLE: No I did not see it personally, the operators they see it, they report it to their supervisor, and the supervisor will in turn notify us about an incident. MR KATZ: That’s now you personally? MR COLE: Yes. MR KATZ: And what did you do? MR COLE: What we do is at that time we then take a copy of that incident and we would store that copy and the supervisor would then notify a response to that and we would then engage or SAPS detectives will then engage us for a copy of any footage that we have of the incident. MR KATZ: Mr Cole you say us and you say SAPS, what actually happened in this particular case, can you remember, and if you can’t remember it’s fine, but if you can remember it may be useful to the Commission to understand what actually happened in the particular case. MR COLE: Detective Sergeant Adams contacted me, and he came with the docket and case number and he received a copy of the footage of the incident that took place at that time, and on speaking to him again he notified me that there was positive arrest made on that incident. MR KATZ: Do you know whether the positive arrest had anything to do with the CCTV footage, or was the arrest unrelated to the use of the camera technology? MR COLE: Normally when we get new operators in we train them in zooming in on facial, on faces when an incident goes down, so when it goes to court or when South African Police Service needs footage for investigation they can then see a face of the perpetrator performing the crime, so by doing that they could identify some of the perpetrators at that scene which led to the arrest of some of them. MR KATZ: Now during the inspection in loco there was mention made by someone about facial recognition technology, is the City at this stage in a position to use that technology or are there any plans to use it, if they haven’t ...(intervention). MR COLE: No we are not in the process of usin g any facial recognition yet. MR KATZ: Technology thank you. Now the question arises as to the 16 cameras in Khayelitsha are placed in specific areas, a map of Khayelitsha with the particular cameras identified in particular spots has been provided to the commission, I understand that you have a copy of that map in your possession, is that correct? MR COLE: That’s correct. MR KATZ: Now the first time that I want to, the f irst question that I want to ask you is do you know why it is that the cameras were put up in the specific spots that they were put up in, did you personally choose where to put up the cameras or do you know who chose them and how did it come about they we re put up where they are? MR COLE: No, we don’t choose the location for ...(intervention). MR KATZ: When you say we is that the City? MR COLE: Sorry, the City does not choose the location for where the cameras must be placed. What happens is we consult with the South African Police Service, with the intelligence people, or their crime intelligence officers and they give us the hotspots in the area where cameras need to be placed, and on their advice we would then place the cameras. MR KATZ: I see. Now do you know and if you don’t know again you can tell the Commission, do you know which particular SAPS officials contacted the City and who in the City did they contact, because there are questions that may be asked of you by the representatives of SAPS to the effect that they’re not – the station commanders and cluster commanders in respect of Khayelitsha don’t know you, and they don’t even know about you, so perhaps you can talk to that issue. MR COLE: Okay. Thank you. In 2003 when the Khayelitsha came ras were erected my director, Riedwan Wagied, he consulted with the then station commander, Senior Superintendent Nieuhaus, Captain Jansen and I think the crime officer, senior superintendent Danie Lourens, they were consulted on where the cameras should go. MR KATZ: So if I understand your evidence correctly is that the three SAPS officials that you’ve mentioned would have assisted your director Wagied, as to where specifically the cameras should be placed, is that your evidence? MR COLE: That’s correct yes. MR KATZ: Now do you know the current station commanders in Khayelitsha or the cluster commander, do you know them, have you met them, have you ever interacted with them? MR COLE: No, I haven’t. MR KATZ: I see. Is that something that one should expe ct or who – what interaction do you personally, and your team have, or your unit have with SAPS, who would you contact with? MR COLE: The interaction I have with SAPS is only when a detective phones me and when he comes for evidence or for footage on incid ents that happened within his area. MR KATZ: And that also – would you also interact with the – I think you mentioned, I’m not sure if you mentioned his name, with the liaison officer who sits in the control room in your unit, is that right? MR COLE: Ja, through warrant officer Alex Fourie that he’s the liaison officer in our control room with – for SAPS, they would also liaise with him or consult with him to ask if there is any footage. MR KATZ; I see. Now the last aspect that I want to – or before we get to the last aspect, have you consulted with SAPS or any official, you yourself, as to where if there are further cameras to be put out where they should be, or what the success rate is of how these cameras – have you consulted with anybody about thes e issues, or do you just do your job on a day to day basis and get on with the thing. What is your experience in that respect? MR COLE: No I don’t, I did not consult, I don’t consult with SAPS on further rollout, further rollout is done at top level, an d the two operations. MR KATZ: The last topic that I want to talk to you about is what – let me say this, do you ever give evidence in court, in magistrate courts or district courts, regional courts, high courts, in criminal trials in respect of evidence that might have been obtained by your camera unit? MR COLE: Yes I do. MR KATZ: And how often would you say you’ve testified, roughly? MR COLE: Roughly once or twice a month I go to court. MR KATZ: And could you detail the various courts that you’ve test ified in? MR COLE: I’ve testified ...(intervention). MR KATZ: Generally, these are very general. MR COLE: Okay, I’ve testified in Bellville Court, Athlone Court, mostly what they need from me is that I downloaded the footage, and that it is what I sta te is that it is date stamped and timed, and there is – it’s not been tampered with, so it’s a true copy of the master copy. MR KATZ: I see. Have you ever been asked to testify in the Khayelitsha courts? MR COLE: No, not yet. MR KATZ: I see. Thank you Mr Cole, Commissioner those are all the questions that I have for the witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KATZ COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Ms Bawa any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BAWA: I just have a few, of the sixteen cameras in Khayelitsha do t hey all focus on Khayelitsha, in other words there’s two along Bayden Powell, are those cameras directed at Khayelitsha or in the other direction? MR COLE: The ones on Bayden Powell? Can you answer that? MR MOLLER: Can I respond to that, thank you Commi ssioner. Most of them focus on – out of the 16 the 16 focus on Khayelitsha itself, they all focus on Khayelitsha. COMMISSIONER: Would you mind just for the record indicating what your position is in the City? MR MOLLER: I will do that Commissioner I am the senior superintendent, I am Metro Police, I manage the CCTV and two or three other departments, Kevin falls under me as one of the departments. COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Anything else? MS BAW A: Since the cameras were put in, in 2003, has there been a ny discussion with SAPS as to whether those 16 areas are still regarded as hotspots? MR MOLLER: There’s been no further liaison on it, it was put in from those days and that’s – from then we have done, we have managed the cameras, operationalise it, on those particulars, there’s never been asked should there be placed cameras in other areas, although we would like to put in more I would say. MS BAW A: Now there seems to be the – we’ve touched on this relationship with Eskom, could you maybe give us, the Commission an indication as to what is the relationship with City and Eskom in respect of CCTV cameras, in Khayelitsha? MR MOLLER: Just to clarify you say in relationship in the power side of it, the electrical side of it? MS BAWA: Well maybe I should be clearer Mr Moller, as I understood it there’s certain of the equipment, for example an Eskom pole that goes to the transformer and that one of the reasons why one of the cameras have remained off for not just a couple of weeks but almost for more than a year, is because Eskom has refused to provide power to that source. MR MOLLER: Thank you. Advocate the particular camera is on the corner of New Way and Lansdowne, this particular camera that you are referring to. The reason for the camera it’s got abou t a 70 or 80 metre cable run, and every time they repair this copper cable it gets stolen again, or gets vandalised again. Now from Eskom, we’ve got it from Eskom to state that it is economically not worthwhile to keep on repairing this cable, so that’s why we’ve had to go and look, we are now looking at another type of solution to try and see if we can get that camera up and running, and just to clarify it’s been off since 2011. MS BAWA: Sorry, it’s been down since? MR MOLLER: 2011. MS BAW A: And we haven’t come up with a solution in the last two and a half years? MR MOLLER: We have come up with a solution but it’s a costly solution and we have to put it through a process. Obviously the solution that we are going to look at is some type of solar power with a type of wind generation, the two items are not cheap at all. MS BAW A: As I understand it the fibre optic cable that actually gets stolen isn’t worth much on an open market for the person who is stealing it, am I correct? MR MOLLER: That is correct. MS BAW A: And that the thinking is that these cables get stolen because they are thought to be copper. Is that correct? MR MOLLER: That is correct yes. MS BAWA: What have we done to sort of disavow that kind of thing, I mean I understand the problem is that they look like copper, so is there any way when we replace this we make it not look like copper? For a lay person that is. MR MOLLER: Chair we have tried in the past with different colours, making the cables different colours, the outside of the cable, they still cut it through to see what is inside, that’s what they’re physically looking for. MS BAW A: Is it your sense that – and this might be an unfair question, is there a sophistication in the theft of the cable? MR MOLLER: I cannot say how sophisticated they are, I would say some of the ideas are very ingenious, you wouldn’t think that they could dig a tunnel or move around to get the cable, so there is some clever ways that they go about it yes. MS BAW A: Do you have any liaison directly with the SAPS stations besides through the clerks and the warrant officers that are there? MR MOLLER: We have no – we only deal via the liaison officers, we don’t go, we don’t have any further dealings with SAPS at all. MS BAW A: Do you take part in any o ther liaison meetings with SAPS, either yourself as from a CCTV point, either through the Cape Town office or the Bellville office, there’s a word for it, let me just find out, stakeholder meetings. MR MOLLER: Yes we deal with the stakeholder meetings, fr om Cape Town in Cape Town there is stakeholder meetings, they are there, in Bellville once a year there’s a stakeholder meeting that they deal with, but other than that that’s the only discussions that take us. MS BAW A: So you’re not part of any stakeholder meeting specifically involving Khayelitsha? Because it seems as if from the evidence we got from the prosecutor when she does seek CCTV camera footage she is told the camera is not operating, and the footage is not available, and it does seem that if there was a communication channel opened there’s a way in which that could easily be verified, do you have any comment in relation thereto? MR MOLLER: Commission I can’t really say, I mean it’s something that I can’t sa y if they would, but I’m sure that if there’s a communication gap, a communication link between us we might be able to assist each other, but I can’t say what the processes are. MS BAWA; We seem to be using the CCTV cameras reactively, do you agree? MR MOLLER: In some stages where the cameras are static cameras we do use it reactively, as in we will see what happens when the incident, we will come back to the incident, but in other areas, in other sections we don’t, it’s proactive. MS BAW A: But my question is slightly is there a use for CCTV cameras to be used proactively for the collection of data for crime intelligence, for means of ways in which SAPS could use it as a preventative tool and rather simply call us when something happens and we need to go out there, is that possible? MR MOLLER: Anything is possible and I would say it’s probably something that you can look at, but I want to go one thing and say that we can put as many cameras as we like, we need feet on the ground as well. We need to pu t people on the ground, cameras don’t work on their own, they need people to respond to and that type of thing as well, so you can put a lot of cameras there but if you’re not going to have people to respond to it then it’s not going to help neither. MS BAWA: What’s the response been like in Khayelitsha when incidents have been arising evident from the TMC Centre? MR MOLLER: With than, the footprint there we have a fairly good response, I mean it’s – the response is if we call them they respond, but again the liaison officers deal with it and we really don’t deal with how long or the times or what type of response it is, you will have to take it up with liaison guys, but we pass the information on, they then deal with it from there onwards. MS BAW A: In relation to your cameras in other areas do you liaise with neighbourhood watches at all? MR MOLLER: Yes we do, we got a bit of response from the neighbourhood watches. MS BAW A: And have you ever been approached by neighbourhood watches or community organisations in Khayelitsha to offer the same kind of assistance? MR MOLLER: No we haven’t been approached. MS BAWA: If you had such an approach what your attitude be? MR MOLLER: Like with any we would assist where we can, as I see we see ourselves as a support to any type of service, not only just the SAPS one, it can be for the fire department, it can be any service, so we see ourselves as a utility tool that many more services can use. MS BAWA: Thank you Mr Moller. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BAWA COMMISSIONER: Just one or two questions, there is a facility too I understand where you can do license plate recognition with cameras and you can tag that to either lists of stolen cars or a list of cars, is that operational in the CCTV system that the City had? MR MOLLER: We don’t have that in place at the moment, we are moving into that, these are new technologies that are coming through and we re slowly but surely moving into that type of technology by using cameras to do license plate recognition and that type of thing. COMMISSIONER: Secondly one of the things that’s been coming very clear to the Commission is that context is very important to policing and that as a City the City has many different contexts of which Khayelitsha is one of them. Is there any in your experience is there any particular aspects about the context of Khayelitsha which makes CCTV cameras more or less successful. MR MOLLER: In my experience the only issue that I can only honestly say is lighting that would be a problem where you know yo u’re not going to always get the perfect, the cameras don’t get the perfect view because of lighting, but it’s not any different to a lot of the other areas within the City either. COMMISSIONER: Would be as successful in Khayelitsha as it would be in Sea Point or Claremont? MR MOLLER: The only thing I could say maybe in the other areas is that there’s a lot more structured roads, in some there is, informal areas don’t have structured roads, so it’s very difficult sometimes to follow the person becaus e they will disappear between the various informal houses, but other than that there’s nothing else that is any different. COMMISSIONER: So sort of operationally speaking there’s no reason why there shouldn’t be a rollout? MR MOLLER: No there shouldn’t. COMMISSIONER: So isn’t it surprising that we still only have 16 cameras that we got in 2003, I understand that’s not your terrain but if it is as successful as it would be elsewhere and we’ve gone up to 150 elsewhere it is a little surprising? MR MOLLER: Ja, I cannot say why they haven’t rolled out ja. COMMISSIONER: You can’t comment, fair enough. Ms Mayosi do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MAYOSI: You testified Mr Cole that you go to the courts in Athlone in Bellville say once or twice a month, to give evidence in connection with the footage, is that right? MR COLE: That’s correct. MS MAYOSI: Is there any particular reason why you’ve never testified in the Khayelitsha courts? MR COLE: I don’t have any reason why, nobody ha s asked me to come, I wasn’t subpoenaed to come to Khayelitsha court yet. MR MAYOSI: But do they come to collect the footage? MR COLE: Yes. MS MAYOSI: Relating to the incidents that happen in Khayelitsha? MR COLE: Yes, they do. MS MAYOSI: But you just have not been asked to go and testify? MR COLE: No, I haven’t. MS MAYOSI: Given the significance of CCTV footage to crime prevention and the prevalence of crime in Khayelitsha is that something that, what do you make of that, the fact that you have neve r been called there. MR COLE: Ja, it’s strange that when I attend court I go like I said to the commission that just to prove the – or to show them the authenticity of it, to give them the chain of evidence, just where I fit into it, so I don’t think why I shouldn’t be called to Khayelitsha just to come and do that too, or is it different, I am not too sure why they haven’t called me. MS MAYOSI: Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAYOSI COMMISSIONER: Mr Arendse? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE: Thank you Commissioner. I as you know madam commissioner I did not attend the inspection, my colleague, Advocate Masuku did, and he was very impressed and I think we focused more on the invasive nature of these cameras, that they can really zoom in on you and so on and so he was certainly impressed and I accept that. Just maybe to deal with this last point actually that Ms Mayosi raised with you, did you say Mr Cole that the investigating officer would come to you and give you the case number and so on when th e request is made? Is that right? MR COLE: That’s correct. MR ARENDSE: So would you have a record of these requests that have been made from investigating officers in the broader Khayelitsha area? MR COLE: That’s correct. MR ARENDSE: I’m interested to ask that Madam Chair because of course it might be Mr Cole that the footage was collected but was not required because the accused could have pleaded guilty or the issue of identity would not have been placed in issue and it wasn’t nee ded, but I think what would be of more concern to me and to the Commission would be footage had been collected, a suspect or an accused may have been identified, and it may have assisted with the conviction of that person, but that was not followed through , so I think maybe if you could just through Mr Katz supply us with those details so that we can correlate that with the cases because as I think Ms Bawa said the senior public prosecutor said there’s been requests for footage but then she is told, presum ably by the IO, there’s none. Just these cameras of course are owned by the City, they belong to the City and ultimately the City decides that this is where we’re going to place it, provided they have consulted with the police, is that how I understand it ? MR COLE: After consultation yes. MR ARENDSE: Now unfortunately the three persons that you mentioned I certainly don’t know them, and I’ve never consulted with them, would – and I think one of them you said was a station commander? MR COLE: Ja, at the time senior superintendent Nieuhaus. MR ARENDSE: Nieuhaus? MR COLE: Ja, that was station commander at Site B. MR ARENDSE: Okay and the other two? MR COLE: Captain Jansen worked at Khayelitsha and senior superintendent Danie Lourens was the intelligence officer I think. MR ARENDSE: Okay, no I just wanted to check because you mentioned earlier that there would have been a consultation with crime intelligence presumably because they’re the people who identify these hotspots. MR COLE: That’s correct. MR ARENDSE: And you would accept that since 2003 some hotspots then may not be hotspots today, and there may have been quite a radical change in patterns of crime and where the hotspots would be in 2013/2014. MR COLE: Ja, could be. MR ARENDSE: Ja. Now you also accept that yes we heard of your attempts since 2011 three years, just under three years now, quite a high percentage of the 16 cameras are actually not working, is that – you say ten out of the sixteen are working? MR COLE: Ten are working yes. MR ARENDSE: So quote a high percentage is not working? MR COLE: Six of them ja. MR ARENDSE: Yes, that’s quite a lot. MR COLE: Yes. MR ARENDSE: And these six could actually be the current hotspots? MR COLE: They could be yes. MR ARENDSE: Have you enquired into that, or have you – as there been any liaison with SAPS on that? That the six that are not working could be in some of the more high crime rate areas? MR COLE: Look what we do is the liaison officer at the control room he liaises with SAPS and if there’s a camera that is down he would liaise with them and tell them that there’s cameras down in the area. MR ARENDSE: Now I heard Mr Moller say that you can have as many cameras as you want but you still need people on the ground, but Mr Moller surely one of the main objectives or purposes of these cameras is also to have a deterrent effect, in other words you’re being watched, you know like you drive your car, and you see this sign which says 60, 80 or whatever, you’re go ing to get caught if you drive too fast. MR MOLLER: Correct. Advocate you still require people to catch the perpetrator, so that’s why I say it doesn’t help going to put a lot of cameras down if you cannot get an adequate or a good response to it. MR ARENDSE: Ja, but ...(intervention). MR MOLLER: So what I will say if I can add to it is in my and I’m just saying in my opinion you might require less people than you would normally require, if you’ve got cameras there, but I would say you still need the people, we can put cameras everywhere but they will see what’s going on, but they won’t stop what’s going on. MR ARENDSE: But your job in that camera room is quite unique, because you do catch every second you catch people, you record it, you store it and there’s a thing called footage, so that seems to be the problem, is that if – no just listen to me – if a crime is reported or someone is arrested at a particular time on a particular day or whatever there should be a liaison with you to check and this is what I want to enquire into, is it possible to be able to check to say on such and such a date and at such and such a time because this may have been committed in the area where one of the cameras is working that they come to you and they say is there so me footage to assist us. MR MOLLER: There is that type of liaison, they do contact the centres and find out if there is a camera in location, was there any footage, and then we will go back and we will check for them if there is footage we will tell them that there is footage they can come, and sometimes they just want to see the footage just for investigative purposes to see if they can pick up what’s happening, that type of thing, yes, the detectives do it quite a lot, we do have it, it’s not just done with Khayelitsha, it’s done throughout, throughout the whole ...(intervention). MR ARENDSE: I think that is why it is important for us to actually get those details from you, if you say that there is this regular, would you say regular interaction between you and the police, because I would share the concern, is that you testified in Bellville and Athlone and I know people in Athlone they will just say no I wasn’t there and then there’s an issue with their identification, maybe that’s why you testify more in Athlone and Bellville, but we also need to understand you know it’s being used in the courts and that may be an area of concern. So when I think Mr Katz pre-empted that question so when the station commanders, the current ones and the ones of the rec ent past, when they say they’ve never interacted or they were not consulted about the placement of the cameras they would, that would be fair comment, but you consulted with their predecessors? MR COLE: That’s correct. MR ARENDSE: Thank you madam Commissioner, I’ve got nothing further. COMMISSIONER: Thank you Mr Arendse. Just on the point about the liaison when on the day that the inspection in loco was conducted unfortunately the warrant officer who I understand would be the supervising SAPS officer wasn’t present at the CCTV camera room, but it night be something that you might want to follow up with your clients, because I would imagine that that warrant officer would be in a good position to give us information as to how the networks of communication work. Thank you. You will follow that up perhaps. Mr Katz? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KATZ: Thank you, just three quick questions for clarification for the record. Mr Moller you said that you are Mr Cole’s supervisor in response to a question of the Commission, perhaps you could just offer the commission some idea of your experience in law enforcement in general, how long have you been involved with the City and in what capacity? MR MOLLER: I have 27 years experience with City, I started in the Traffic Department, I worked my way up through the channels there, then in roundabout 1999 we moved over into the CCTV section, f rom there I worked my way up until I became senior superintendent inside that department. As I say I managed the CCTV section just for the Goodwood side, I’ve got a counterpart in Cape Town, namely Barry Schuller that manages that section. I also managed the radio room for the metro police as well as the alarm section. MR KATZ: Then in your response to a question, I think from Advocate Bawa you made some comment that operationally the only interaction that you have with SAPS is with the liaison officer, an d I just wanted to clarify that there – how would you see Mr Cole’s evidence that there is interaction with for example other SAPS officials who maybe the investigating officers or otherwise, can you just explain that. MR MOLLER: Our main interaction is with the police liaison officers at that the centre, they deal with all the issues regarding getting out the police, or getting people to certain incidents should it happen from the police’s point of view. We also, I mean we sit and liaise with the operat ional room, the SAPS operational room there in town, we deal a lot with them as well, and they call it the war room, we deal a lot with them, we have a lot of interaction with them, dealing with cameras, dealing with everything, so we also source a lot of information via that through that war room as well at the end of the day, but that’s basically how the interaction is taking place. Every so now and then, we spoke about the stakeholder meetings, they have stakeholder meetings which we attend but it’s once a year. MR KATZ: And then the last question which is in two parts, if I recall correctly if my notes is correct, there’s some issue about the cameras that the City has other than in Khayelitsha and I think the Commission mention a number, perhaps you could just give context to the 16 cameras that exist in Khayelitsha, how many are there in the City’s jurisdiction in total, how many are in the Goodwood centre at the TMC, the transport management centre, and how many of them are based somewhere else, perhaps you can give the Commission some idea there. MR MOLLER: In total there’s approximately 900 cameras, 886 to be exact if you want to know, cameras, out of that 360 are situated under the metro police, if I can call it the metro police section, which is about 150 is in Goodwood, and the rest, the remainder is in Cape Town and then we have about 200 – 250 cameras that sit under the IRT, and then we have the rest ...(intervention). MR KATZ: The IRT could you explain what the IRT is? MR MOLLER: The IRT is integrated rapid transport, the busses, My City busses, and then we have a section which is under your public transport interchanges as well. Now we do monitor all those cameras at any given time, obviously monitored in different sections, but it is mana ged through us. MR KATZ: Okay, and the last question is Advocate Arendse put to you that – and if I may paraphrase, ten of sixteen is a very high percentage of cameras to be out, and I got the impression from his question that there would be a sense that the ten or sixteen have been out for a long time, can you just give an idea of the movement of how often are there ten of sixteen out and how often less than ten of sixteen. We have heard that the one camera has been out for some time, so we know for some time there’s been 15 of 16, so can you just give an idea of these other numbers? MR MOLLER: Okay, one of the cameras has been out since 2011, that is the one we are trying to source different ways of doing it, the others have been down and up through the period of time, the camera devices they go up and down, they can go off for one day and then get repaired the same day, some of them have other issues, power could be cable, anything that then prolongs the peri od of time. The six cameras we are speaking about now I’m hoping to have up and running in this week still. MR KATZ: The five? MR MOLLER: Okay five, one of them I cannot, obviously we are looking for another source but I am trying to get it – our aim is to try and get it up as soon as possible. We try and keep ourselves to an over 90% up time, and you can see on the records we are sort of trying, we are managing to keep it as that. But the particular cameras you’re talking about is one fibre that has be en cut which affects all the cameras along the line so as soon as we repair that we will be able to source it out. The only problem is this fibre is along the railway line, so for them to fix it up they’ve got to stop the trains, nobody wants to stop the trains so you’ve got to choose the right days, right times, source the things, so these are the little things that has to go, there’s a lot of things behind the scenes that people don’t understand, it’s not just repairing the camera and up and running aga in, it’s quite involved because there’s a lengthy route of backbone that has to be managed and everything like that, so when they do cut the stuff you need to source the fibre, you need to source it, then you have get the people out to get it done, then yo u have to source with the likes of Transtel to have trains stopped so you can have it done, so there’s quite a lot of other interactions that happen with this process. MR KATZ: And then just on that point if I remember correctly and correct me if I’m wrong, at the inspection in loco you mentioned that the particular timing of this particular vandal, act of vandalism has created a lengthier delay than otherwise might be, is that correct, could you just comment on that? MR MOLLER: Yes unfortunately the came ras they are linked on fibre backbone, okay, so if you for instance – let’s just take the five cameras into perspective here, that particular, if they cut that fibre then all the other, these five cameras go down, they are on different locations but they g o down, so you’ve got to go and repair that link. Now you might get that link up and running and find there’s a further fault further down the line. These are the things that we work through but again I’ve got to engage the likes of Eskom and these peopl e for certain repairs. MR KATZ: But what I remember is your evidence was to the effect that it happened just before Christmas, so when did it happen and is there a reason for why the delay is taking so long? MR MOLLER: Okay, the five cameras, the first lot of cameras went down in just late November and then in roundabout I think it was the 12th or 13th of December another three cameras went down, they all are fibre cuts, which is in the process of being repaired, but those particular cameras have been o ut since last November. MR KATZ: So it’s usual that you have a two month, I mean late November, December, January, now we’re into February, that’s two and a half months, and is that usual? And you said sometimes cameras are repaired within a day, is two a nd a half months usual? MR MOLLER: Generally the cameras are repaired, we try to get it repaired as quick as possible, sometimes it’s within a week, sometimes it can be within a month, it all depends what is required and what needs to be sourced. The pr oblem if anything is added to it, is you’re building, everything comes to a stop 16th o December, so you can’t source anything during that period of time until again the 13th of January, so that is where your problems come in and that causes your delays as well, so I can’t source equipment until it has opened again, so that was one of the issues that has taken longer than normal to have this up and running. MR KATZ; Thank you Mr Cole and Mr Moller, madam commissioner I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KATZ COMMISSIONER: Just one thing Mr Katz, you did mention the map with the location of the cameras on, my evidence is that we don’t have it, it would actually be very helpful, it may be that we do, but we’ve mislaid it, if you could ensu re that we do have a copy. MR KATZ: It has been supplied, it’s in bundle 8 I think. It is in bundle 8, I’m instructed it’s in bundle 8, but we can give you a hard copy at the lunch break. I will give you a hard copy. COMMISSIONER: A hard copy will be very nice. MR KATZ: This is the – I have a version which is A4 paper, it’s a Google map, they have one in the front which is slightly larger. COMMISSIONER: Excellent, I mean are we right in assuming that most of these are in the Site B/Green Point area, and not in Ndlivini and in Makhaza and so on, because the newer areas of Khayelitsha were not covered because it’s 2003, that’s what we assume and what we wanted to see. Thank you. MR KATZ: I don’t know madam commissioner, if you want to take the map issue further, my client can hand up a copy of the map. COMMISSIONER: That would be great, would you please do that. My colleague does have a question. MR PIKOLI: Thank you. I think that you are aware that Khayelitsha is a presidential station. MR MOLLER: Yes, we’re aware it’s presidential. MR PIKOLI: Right, my concern is more on the cameras that are not working. Just to know as to whether SAPS are aware that six of the cameras are not working? MR MOLLER: I can only say that we normally pass it onto the liaison guys who I presume would inform the necessary stations. MR PIKOLI: Can we get that as a matter of fact, as to whether SAPS were informed? MR MOLLER; I cannot answer what happened from there, we just pass it on – we pass it onto the liaison office r so warrant Fourie would be told the information and then he then would, I would presume he then would contact the necessary station. MR PIKOLI: So there is a possibility that SAPS might not be aware? MR MOLLER; I presume, it could be ja. MR PIKOLI: Now when Mr Bosman was here he said of the six four are not working as a result of cable theft since December 2013, and one is being repeatedly vandalised, one Eskom is not prepared to repair, this being a presidential station meaning that it has to be privati sed insofar as resources are concerned, and appreciating the role played by CCTV cameras I don’t seem to have a sense of or I don’t think that there is a sense of urgency in ensuring that repairs are effected, am I correct? MR MOLLER: No it’s like any other place, we treated it – everything is treated exactly the same, so it goes through the same period, when a camera goes down we send the technicians out, they go, they then ascertain what the problem is and then from there we deal with it, it’s all got to go through processes, so if a camera has gone down and it’s for instance cable theft then we have to go through to the procurement officer, who then has to procure the items, we have to go through that whole process, so there’s a process and we have to follow this process. Sometimes it is a bit slow but those processes have to be followed, we have to go and procure the item, from there once the item is procured we can then take the process further, so it goes through the normal standard processes that t he City offers and we have to go through, other than that there’s no other delay in the process. As I say the one that has been vandalised every time they keep on putting up the power cable it gets taken, it gets stolen. I can’t stop the people, we’ve tried and we’ve had no success, so that is where Eskom has come back and said it’s too costly for them to keep on replacing that camera, that cable, sorry. MR PIKOLI: The reality on the ground though suggest that there are six hotspot areas, prime hotspots that are under no camera surveillance, that’s the reality. MR MOLLER: Currently yes there is six locations that is not currently being monitored by cameras. If the liaison officer has done his job then the police would have been informed about it and hope fully they would then step up the patrols there I would say – I would think that that would be the function that they would take over. I can’t answer to that, but I would presume that’s the process that will be followed. We are trying as best as we can t o get those cameras up and running. MR PIKOLI: Thank you. COMMISSIONER: Yes Mr Arendse? MR ARENDSE: … these questions I just forgot to put something to the witnesses, I think it was colonel Reitz, the Harare station commander, he says that there are no cameras in – within his area of jurisdiction, the Harare police station. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR COLE: Harare has got nothing, there’s no cameras in that area. COMMISSIONER: I think that’s again you know it’s covering Makhaza, the newer areas and because they haven’t been revisited since 2003 that would be why that’s the case. Thank you very much indeed Mr Cole and Mr Moller for your testimony, for giving us access to the control room, which was very helpful and we are sure that the cameras are an important part in controlling crime in Khayelitsha, thank you very much. You may now stand down. WITNESSES EXCUSED