Dáil Éireann

DÁIL ÉIREANN

AN COMHCHOISTE UM

FEIDHMIÚ CHOMHAONTÚ AOINE AN CHÉASTA

JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT

Déardaoin, 16 Bealtaine 2013

Thursday, 16 May 2013

The Joint Committee met at 11.30 a.m.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

Deputy Seán Conlan, Senator Jim D’Arcy, Deputy Seán Crowe, Senator Mary Moran, Deputy Frank Feighan, Senator Mary M. White. Deputy Martin Ferris, Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick, Deputy Joanna Tuffy, Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, Deputy Joe O’Reilly, Deputy Brendan Smith, Deputy Jack Wall,

In attendance: Deputies Gerry Adams and Seamus Kirk, Senator Terry Brennan, Mr. Conor Murphy, MP, and Ms Margaret Ritchie, MP.

DEPUTY JOE MCHUGH IN THE CHAIR.

1 Narrow Water Bridge: Discussion

Narrow Water Bridge: Discussion

Chairman: Members know the drill about mobile telephones. We have a number of local representatives to discuss the proposed and, as far as this committee is concerned, infamous Narrow Water Bridge. The issue has been on the committee’s agenda for a long period. I acknowledge the members for keeping this high on the agenda. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Jim Boylan, president of Warrenpoint Chamber of Commerce, who is joined by Mr. Mark Kelly and Ms Olga Fitzpatrick. We extend a warm welcome to them and we look forward to their contributions. I also welcome Mr. Paddy Malone, outgoing president of the Dundalk Chamber of Commerce, who is joined by the incoming president, Mr. Paddy Mat- thews.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Representatives of both chambers will have the opportunity to make an opening statement before we invite members to make observations and put questions.

Mr. Jim Boylan: I thank the Chairman and the committee for allowing us to speak on this important matter of the Good Friday Agreement, which is now 15 years old. In our area, Mourne, Louth and Carlingford Lough, it is not working for us. Narrow Water Bridge ticks so many boxes in the Good Friday Agreement, which refers to rights, safeguards and equality of opportunity in section 6. There is a lack of economic growth and we have pursued the Narrow Water Bridge project as a means of increasing economic growth in our area. Aspects of the business case put forward by Louth County Council show that employment growth potential after the completion of the bridge will be upwards of 270 jobs. With such spending power in our local economy, we see further potential for growth. Our emphasis is not only on tourism, but also local commerce.

The project also ticks boxes in respect of social cohesion in urban, rural and Border areas. We live in a Border area that has become, in recent years, inaccessible. The documentation we have provided shows we have had contact with our neighbours from the earliest times. When we lost the Warrenpoint-Omeath ferry, communities on both sides of the lough suffered. The tourism industry died and the Narrow Water Bridge is our means of regeneration. Not only have we rekindled cross-Border relationships in pursuit of the project, it has brought both communities along the Mourne coastal region much closer. We see our future as being dependent on one another. Warrenpoint, Kilkeel, Newcastle, Omeath and Carlingford cannot survive on their own. We must co-operate along the coast and across the Border to survive. Relationships between the communities in the Mourne coastal communities have improved beyond recogni- tion in pursuit of this project. One of our members said that creating employment, retaining employment, putting food on the table, filling oil tanks, and keeping the doors of our businesses open surmounts any divisions. Divisions remain but constant conversations have been break-

2 Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement ing down the barriers between ourselves and our neighbours. The Agreement also states that it should strengthen physical infrastructure, producing new approaches to transport. The Narrow Water Bridge does this. It ticks all the boxes in this instance. The bridge is there to unite people on a social level and on an economic level, a bridge to renew the access formerly enjoyed by the people of Omeath, Carlingford and Warrenpoint to professional and commercial services and co-operation between emergency services and health and education services in their ev- eryday lives. The Northern Ireland Executive and the Assembly were obliged to introduce an economic development strategy for Northern Ireland. We have seen little of this.

We see this development as a self-help strategy for our area. We cannot wait any longer. The people on both sides of the lough see and have pursued the bridge as our contribution to the economic growth of our area. The bridge is shovel ready with guaranteed planning permission and 80% funding but we cannot seem to be able to get the commitment of the finance department of the Stormont government. This project is at the heart of the Good Friday Agreement and it should be done. The bridge is 280 m long, but to us it is half a world away, and we need to see action on it now.

Mr. Paddy Malone: I thank the committee for this opportunity. Over recent years, we have worked together with Newry and Mourne District Council and the various chambers of commerce to try to build economic stability in the region. The memorandum of understanding signed by Louth County Council, Newry and Mourne District Council and the various organisations, including Dundalk Chamber of Commerce and Warrenpoint Chamber of Commerce, has been a catalyst in creating both an environment in which we can all work together and a network, which is allowing this area to develop. That MOU is unique in Europe and is recog- nised as such because the original documentation was signed in Brussels. The memorandum addresses a number of issues of mutual interest but it is primarily aimed at regenerating the area. The tourism potential is enormous and that is what makes it so important.

A report published by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Govern- ment ten days ago indicated that Dundalk is the weakest gateway town of the nine gateways in the country. Our unemployment rate is 25% above the national average. We were well aware of these figures because the two chambers of commerce, Louth County Council and Newry and Mourne District Council commissioned a report three years ago which highlighted this. The Department’s report reinforces the message. We have nine gateways in the South, and Dundalk has the joint lowest score, together with Letterkenny. This indicates that the Border area is a major problem, not just in County Louth. The fact that both towns with the lowest score are on the Border is an interesting factor.

We need to get those in the area to work together as a unit. Members of Newry and Mourne District Council sit on the Louth Economic Forum and one of its major recommendations is that when we address the infrastructure of County Louth, we should automatically think of Newry and Mourne at the same time. That is the thinking that is going on within the various organisations and we need this bridge, which will give a physical dimension to what people want on the ground. It is for that reason that we believe strongly that because our unemployment rate is so high, the unskilled and semi-skilled jobs which are needed will be provided by the tourism and construction industries. As Mr. Boylan said, construction alone would generate 200 jobs. That is what makes this so important. The PayPal jobs and other jobs we have attracted to the town over the past 12 months have had an impact on one aspect of our economy but not on the other. PayPal is employing as many people from the North as it is from the South. When we talk about major industries going into the area, we do not stop at the Border.

3 Narrow Water Bridge: Discussion One of the first calls I received when we were looking at PayPal was from a councillor based in Newry who is a member of Newry Chamber of Commerce, and his first question was: “How do I get into PayPal?” We have set up that relationship in order that we work together all the time. This bridge will be a physical manifestation of what we in the chambers of commerce have been seeking for several years. I first met Mr. Boylan about this project four years ago. We believe strongly in its economic impact on the area, which is needed. This is an area of major deprivation. Newry is ranked the second worst area in the North after Strabane, and it includes the greater Warrenpoint area. It is an economic blackspot both north and south of the Border.

Chairman: I thank Mr. Malone, who has set a good precedent regarding brevity. I ask the members to follow suit and make their contributions as concise and specific as possible. I will call members first and then visiting politicians will be given an opportunity.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: Are any of the other representatives making a contribution?

Chairman: Yes.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: This is an important infrastructural project for the north Louth-south Down area and for the region in general. As Mr. Boylan outlined, it could have tremendous economic and tourism benefits for the area with the potential for 270 jobs. That would only be the tip of the iceberg because it would be like opening up a Brigadoon to the rest of the country and tourists from abroad. It is a unique area which could attract many thousands of visitors annually. Having attended one of the meetings in Warrenpoint, we stopped at the Carrickdale Hotel on the way home, and I met two people from Navan, County Meath, who had spent five nights in Carlingford. They said if the bridge had been in place, they would have spent two weeks in the area. That is an example of the potential benefit to the region.

Mr. Boylan said the project would create and maintain employment. Mr. Malone was too modest to say he commissioned the McCardle report which had all the results for Dundalk two years before the gateway report. He has his finger on the button regarding economics in the Dundalk area. Mr. Boylan was passionate in his delivery but all of us in all parties are passionate about this project. It is not a political project for us anymore. We want to support Mr. Boylan in his quest to have this delivered and that is why it is important that this be promoted by everyone as a business project.

What are Mr. Boylan’s fears? The project is at the stage where the bridge order has been ad- vertised and the decision will be made by 15 June. The letter of offer from the Finance Ministry in the North will then issue. Are there fears that this might not happen? Has he information on the response to the bridge order advertisement?

Chairman: Members can decide among themselves who will focus on what. There is a vote in the Seanad, in case Senator D’Arcy is not paired.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: I am so excited about this that I did not even notice.

Chairman: It will only take a few minutes.

Senator Mary Moran: I hope we will have the opportunity to speak when we come back.

Chairman: We will still be here. I invite Ms Margaret Ritchie, MP, to speak, then Mr. Conor Murphy, MP.

4 Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement Ms Margaret Ritchie: I welcome the representatives from Warrenpoint Chamber of Com- merce, whom I travelled with this morning, and their counterparts from Dundalk Chamber of Commerce. It seems I have been working with them collectively for a lifetime to deliver this most important project that will link Cooley in County Louth with my constituency of South Down, particularly Warrenpoint and the Mourne Mountains.

I am in no doubt about the economic and social benefits this will bring to south Down in terms of opening up an avenue of investment that has not been available to us until now for visitors, tourism, investment and new business. In Warrenpoint, planning permission has been granted for vacant buildings in the square to be converted to retail businesses. That would not have happened without the good news about the bridge. The planning authorities on both sides of the Border have provided planning approval, marine consents have been provided, along with funding from SEUPB to the tune of €17.4 million and the Irish Government has provided matched funding of up to €4 million. The only outstanding elements are the bridge order to facilitate navigation, which is currently out to consultation. The committee will recall that Newry and Mourne Council, Louth County Council and the DRD have provided the funding that will adjust the mussel boats, allowing navigation under the bridge when it opens. That impediment will be removed.

The remaining impediment is the outstanding funding, about €2 million for the Northern Ireland Executive. The Northern Ireland Assembly has already approved a motion on a majority vote in November indicating this project would have major economic and social implications for the whole of the area between south Down and County Louth. I ask both chambers of commerce what they foresee as the forthcoming economic and social implications once the bridge is complete. How will it transform our landscape and economy?

Mr. Conor Murphy: I welcome everyone to the committee. I am sure there are many who have had long-standing relations arising from this project. The argument over its benefits is not an issue, those are accepted by all but a small minority. I was up Slieve Martin a few weeks ago and passed the new bicycle trail. The majority of cars parked there were from Waterford, Kilkenny and similar areas, with people coming on a Sunday morning because it is easier to get through Newry to access the Warrenpoint side of the lough. We can see the potential invest- ments for the Mourne Mountains area by both councils to attract visitors and have an exchange up and down the east coast.

I know from my experience as the Minister for Regional Development for four years that there is no technical or environmental issue that could not be addressed; it is down to the De- partment of Finance and Personnel giving the go-ahead. If officials are not given political direction to move, they have a habit of allowing things to stagnate. It is clearly a matter of political direction being given at senior level in the Department of Finance and Personnel to get this over the last hurdle. A huge amount has been done, particularly by Louth County Council, which has carried the project. There was a time when many people thought this was pie in the sky but it carried it right through and brought it to the point where it secured the crucial funding from Europe. It is a matter of the Department of Finance and Personnel in the North stepping up to the plate on this.

I assume the two chambers want elected representatives on both sides of the Border to use this committee’s influence to apply pressure. We will ask the Taoiseach to raise this directly with the First and Deputy First Ministers and will ask the Minister for Finance to raise it with his counterpart in the North. The committee should apply whatever pressure it can on this because the economic benefits are clear. The great pity would be if this is missed because of 5 Narrow Water Bridge: Discussion some bureaucratic stagnation. It is not just the loss of the benefit but the loss of the funding for the area from the EU would be massive and the reputation of both Administrations when it comes to accessing EU money would be damaged, which would have implications for funding for Ireland as a whole. We are happy to hear from the chambers of commerce about what they would like the committee to do to press support for this case.

Deputy Brendan Smith: I welcome our guests and thank them for the presentation. This project must go ahead. Almost 90% of the funding is in place, sourced from the European Union and our own Government, and the case has been well made. There is huge potential in the Carlingford Lough area, north and south of the Border, for the tourism industry. It is on the east coast and is a short distance from both Dublin and Belfast. With the road network now both cities are easily reachable, which gives that added benefit when attracting visitors. It is an area with massive potential that I have visited many times.

I was involved in the early 1990s with the restoration of the Ballyconnell-Ballinamore canal, which is now the Erne-Shannon waterway. That project was announced in 1989 and completed by 1992, at a time when there was no political co-operation on this island or between east and west. We were going through very difficult times politically and the cost of the project at the time was £30 million, well in excess of €40 million now. That was at a time when there were challenging economic problems facing the country both North and South. At that time, the leadership and commitment was there to restore a canal and it has added tremendously to the tourism potential of Fermanagh, Cavan and Leitrim, and to the broader inland waterway network. That was a time when the project did not have full political support North or South. Senator Jim D’Arcy mentioned this commmittee has total political support and my colleague Deputy Kirk has tabled questions to the Tánaiste today on the issue. It will add considerably to the tourism product for all of the Ireland.

When we think that marketing the country as a tourism destination comes under the remit of one of the all-Ireland implementation bodies, it would be a disgrace if this project is not brought to fruition at an early date. It merits the full support of everyone with an interest in the future of this island, North and South. I commend those representatives in the local area who have in more difficult times championed this cause, along with other groups like the chambers of commerce. I do not doubt that this will be of great benefit, not just for Louth and south Down, but for a much greater area and for the Irish tourism product.

Deputy Jack Wall: I too welcome the representatives from the Chambers of Commerce in Warrenpoint and Dundalk. This is a very serious matter, as previous speakers have said. This project must be completed in the short term. It is of significance to the whole island of Ireland. The objective is to ensure that two communities can integrate with one another in as short a period of time as possible, across what is a very short bridge. The economic gains to be had from the completion of this project, as stressed by Mr. Malone and Mr. Boylan, cannot be overstated. It is imperative that this committee provide whatever assistance is needed to bring this project to completion as soon as possible. The Labour Party members of this committee have been raising this issue with the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, for some time and will continue to do so. We must ensure that the North-South, east- west political aspect of this issue is at the top of the agenda. We must ensure this project is given priority because it will reinvigorate Counties Louth and Down, drawing tourists to those areas from all over the country. The bridge will shorten trips for the local community by 40 minutes, which is a significant amount of time, particularly for business people. The bridge will also enable the development of a new empathy between the communities on both sides of the

6 Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement Border, as well as improving employment and economic prospects in the area. It is a wonderful area to visit from a tourism perspective and has enormous potential for further development. We should not let that potential go untapped for the sake of what is, in today’s terms, a small amount of money. In terms of investment, the sum involved really is quite small. It is disap- pointing that the project is being delayed. There is enormous potential here and this committee must continue to press this issue and prioritise it.

Deputy Seán Crowe: I welcome the witnesses. The submission given to the committee refers to the bridge and its potential to become a symbol of reconciliation and peace. Bridges unite communities and bring people together, negating divisions. In that sense, it is a very positive project.

I read media reports recently concerning Mr. Jim Wells, one the MLAs for the area. He was asked about the delays and said that it was a very important project, involving a lot of money from the EU. He said it was necessary to make sure everything is kosher with regard to the project. That seems very reasonable. The witnesses made the point that the project ticks all of the relevant boxes. However, part of the problem is that this is a North-South project, which may not tick the correct box in terms of finance for Mr. Sammy Wilson, MLA. It may not tick the box for many of his colleagues. The witnesses may not want to go into the political issues here, but are they concerned about a dead hand vis-à-vis this project because it does not tick the boxes for certain people? Are they worried that the project will not go ahead? What is the timescale for the completion of this project? Are the witnesses concerned that this will be investigated to death? How wide is the window of opportunity here in terms of this project actually going ahead?

Deputy Martin Ferris: I thank Mr. Moran and Mr. Boylan for their presentations. This is a wonderful project that will be hugely beneficial to the local and national economy. Mr. Malone made reference to the fact that unemployment in the Dundalk area is 25% above the national average, which equates to an unemployment rate of 17% or 18%.

Mr. Paddy Malone: The unemployment rate is 25% above that of other gateway towns and is at 25%.

Deputy Martin Ferris: That rate is very high and underlines the necessity for this project to go ahead from an employment perspective. The amount of money required to complete the project is small. Have the witnesses been given any indications that the project will go ahead? It is important to stress that this committee is 100% behind this project. We will do everything in our power to influence the people who will be making the decisions. I wish the witnesses well in their endeavours.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick: I welcome the representatives from the Chambers of Com- merce in Warrenpoint and Dundalk. It is good to see so many local representatives at this meeting, including Deputies, Senators and Members of Parliament, which demonstrates the high level of interest in the Narrow Water Bridge. A lot of hard work has been done so far. We are close to the end and it is very important that we seal the deal. A lot of money has already been spent on this project. In that context, I wish to commend Louth County Council on its investment of more than €2 million in this project to date.

The bridge is an appropriate symbol of peace between North and South. There has been a lot of conflict between the North and South for many years but this will help to bridge any gap that remains between the communities on both sides of the Border. In recent years, a tremen-

7 Narrow Water Bridge: Discussion dous amount of friendship has built up between Border communities. The bridge also has the potential to create many jobs North and South and to enhance the development of tourism in the area.

I thank all of those involved for their work on the project so far. It is good so see so much cross-Border and cross-party co-operation, which demonstrates how, when people put their heads together, much can be achieved. Much of what has been said this morning has been positive in tone. We must remain positive in order to reach the finishing line. As a new Deputy in the House, I am delighted to have had the opportunity to meet so many public representatives from Northern Ireland. I thank the witnesses for their presentations.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin: I thank the witnesses for their presentations. Everyone here is in agreement on the importance of this project. What practical steps can this committee take to advance the project? Is there a letter the committee could write or a representation we could make on behalf of the project? Who should such a letter or representation be made to? I am interested in the practical steps that could be taken to move the process forward. Everyone here believes in the validity of the project and is supportive of it. How can this committee be of practical help?

Senator Mary M. White: I welcome the witnesses from both sides of the lough to this meeting. It is a great example for everyone to see them here today, working together for the good of their community. I wrote a letter about the bridge to various newspapers on April 10. I said that it was clear that the communities on both sides of Carlingford Lough are excited about the golden opportunities the Narrow Water Bridge could bring in boosting the local economy and tourism in the strikingly beautiful Cooley Peninsula and Mourne Mountains. The bottom line is that there are significant constraints on the availability of funding. I hope the Minister of Finance and Personnel in Stormont, Mr. Sammy Wilson, in the spirit of promoting positive community relations, will reconsider the rigid position he has adopted and ensure the bridge is built as soon as possible. As everyone is aware, time is running out and the project must be given its imprimatur soon. I was born in Dundalk and, like a homing pigeon, it puts me in good humour to look north. I am familiar with the Cooley Peninsula, a beautiful area which was part of my childhood. I thank the Chairman for the wholehearted support he showed when I raised this matter at a previous meeting of the joint committee.

Deputy Seamus Kirk: I join the Chairman and previous speakers in welcoming the joint delegation from chambers of commerce in the North and South. It is entirely appropriate that the group should attend a meeting of this committee to advocate for a worthy and worthwhile project in the north east. It goes without saying that the Narrow Water Bridge project has been a long time in gestation. I have vivid memories of attending meetings in the Park Hotel in Omeath long before the peace process commenced. At the time, a number of people on the southern side of Carlingford Lough were strongly advocating exploring the potential of the project, with a view to progressing a bridge across the lough. The proposal was met with considerable scepticism. People did not see merit in the project when it was first proposed in the 1980s, a period of significant economic difficulty. The peace process has created a powerful dynamic for those pursuing the project.

A bridge across Carlingford Lough would have clear economic benefits. Anyone who is familiar with the geography of the Mourne Mountains and Cooley Peninsula will acknowledge that the area is largely undiscovered by tourism interests and remains undeveloped in many respects. This key infrastructure project would make a major difference. Apart from bridging the Newry River at Narrow Water, it would act as a powerful symbol and send a message that 8 Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement the peace process is working. It would be a sign that the Stormont Executive is willing to flex its muscles and proceed with worthwhile, cross-Border projects where they provide clear and tangible economic benefits for both the North and South.

The benefits of the project would be felt not only on the Cooley Peninsula, in Dundalk and around the general north County Louth region but also in south County Down and further afield, including County Armagh. I have long advocated development of the tourism industry in the three counties in question. Tourism development in the region has lagged somewhat for reasons those present will fully understand. I know a number of the older sages in the Omeath area who used to tell tales of people, mainly from Belfast, travelling to Warrenpoint in the 1940s and 1950s, before crossing to Omeath by ferry. While there was a considerable demand for private transport to Carlingford, the village of Omeath was the tourism Mecca in the Cooley Peninsula at that point, with Carlingford regarded as something of a backwater. I can say this now because Senator Terry Brennan has left the meeting, although I accept that the status and standing of Carlingford has changed considerably in the intervening period. The caravan park at Cranfield on the northern side of Carlingford shows that the gravitational pull of the lough is also strong on the northern side.

As I stated, public meetings on a proposed bridge were held at the Park Hotel and other ven- ues in the 1980s. At that time, the Oireachtas Members in north County Louth were the former Deputies Dermot Ahern and Brendan McGahan and myself. We did our best to progress the project and keep it on the political agenda, and I am pleased it is still on the political agenda. Of all the projects to come onto our radar, it will be of major benefit to north Louth and south Down. Let us get on with the project. Anyone who has any influence with the finance Minister in Stormont should nudge him gently towards accepting the merits of the proposal. A financial package has been put together by the special EU programmes body, Louth County Council and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. The missing link is the Northern Executive, which must also provide funding. I hope the project can be progressed. A delegation met the Taoiseach when he visited Dundalk recently and made a strong case for making direct contact with Mr. Wilson in an effort to move the project forward. Anybody else in the political arena who has influence on the Minister should exercise that influence.

Is there any merit in seeking a meeting with the Minister? Perhaps a representative group could sit down with him to discuss the benefits of the project and identify any perceived hitches that may arise. At this point, I do not envisage any problems as the proposal has been thorough- ly examined from a technical, economic and political point of view. Let us hope, therefore, that the project can be progressed. It may not be appropriate to arrange a meeting with Mr. Wilson. Others may be in a better position to decide whether it would be a worthwhile to do so.

Deputy Seán Conlan: The delegation is very welcome. It is great to have before us people with vision who have been able to keep the proposal for a bridge over Carlingford Lough on the political agenda for so long. I am positively disposed towards the project because north County Louth and south County Down are beautiful areas. Building the bridge would be an important symbolic gesture of the progress that is being made. What practical steps can the joint committee take to advance the proposal? Should we arrange a meeting with or write to the Minister of Finance and Personnel in the North? Members must decide at the conclusion of this meeting on the course of action we will take. We should do something tangible to try to advance the project. I wish the delegation well in its efforts. Everyone present is positively disposed the project, which I hope will be advanced shortly.

Cross-Border tourism projects that have proceeded in the past have promoted development 9 Narrow Water Bridge: Discussion along the Border and helped attract visitors to the region from home and abroad. As a fre- quent visit to north Louth and Carlingford, I am aware of the hassle one has in trying to visit Warrenpoint or Rostrevor on the northern side of the lough as one must travel through Newry first. People from either side of the lough would definitely travel to the other side much more frequently if a bridge were in place. The project would also develop the economic potential of the area.

Deputy Gerry Adams: I commend the chambers of commerce and councils involved in this project, particularly the individuals who came up with the idea and kept faith with it. Fair play to them. This is how things work. Notionally, the final decision on the project rests with the northern Minister of Finance and Personnel, Mr. Sammy Wilson. One needs to give careful consideration to whether it would be of benefit for the committee to write to Mr. Wilson given that the DUP’s position is one of opposition to the Good Friday Agreement. While it is clearly not opposed to the Agreement, which it is working, it may be a bridge too for Sammy to receive correspondence in the name of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Committee. I have been in touch with the Minister and his colleague, the Minister for Regional Development, Mr. Danny Kennedy. It would be preferable for people to try to have a word with Mr. Wilson in a corridor, rather than in a formal setting.

I have raised this matter on a number of occasions in the Dáil. There may be merit in the joint committee writing to the Taoiseach and Tánaiste requesting that they intervene with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. I raised it with the Deputy First Minister, Mr. Martin McGuinness, who informed me that he would speak quietly to the First Minister, Mr. Peter Robinson, about it. That is my take on the matter.

In the context of any letter the joint committee may wish to write, it should consider including the name of everyone present at this meeting, namely, those from the chambers of commerce, the MPs, the MLAs, the Deputies and the Senators. That might have the desired effect. However, it is the joint committee’s decision. I am only offering a suggestion.

Senator Mary Moran: I welcome our guests. It is great to see them here. I must congratu- late my brother and acknowledge his contribution. There is obviously no conflict of interests because we are all on the same page.

I highly commend Mr. Malone for the tremendous work he has done in this area in conjunction with Mr. Mathews, the other members of the Dundalk Chamber of Commerce and the members of the Warrenpoint Chamber of Commerce from across the Border. It was a fantastic achievement to even get that far. As Mr. Boylan stated, it is symbolic gesture. In the context of the 15th anniversary of the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, the bridge would be a symbolic and physical manifestation of unity and how far we have come, North and South. Several of us spoke about this matter at the recent chamber of commerce lunch relating to the announce- ment of PayPal’s expansion, which was attended by the Taoiseach. Ms Margaret Richie was particularly passionate in her comments on the matter that day. We all know that the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste are on our side in respect of this project and are very much in favour of it. I had a lengthy meeting with the Tánaiste on the matter ten days ago and assure those present that he is doing everything possible to ensure the project will proceed.

Deputy Conlan inquired as to what we could do. At our meeting in the Carrickdale Hotel we all agreed that we could talk but that action was required to keep matters moving. I hope there will be progress in the coming weeks. The bridge will open up the entire eastern region in the context of economic progression and tourism. Reference was made to construction jobs. 10 Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement I am aware that there are EU directives which obtain in this regard, but I hope that, in so far as is possible, such construction jobs will be geared towards and benefit local firms and people.

It is great that everyone is on the same page in this matter and that there is full cross-Border support for it. I, for one, am dying to cross the bridge.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: I was interrupted in what I was saying earlier by the vote which took place elsewhere. I fully support what Deputy Gerry Adams stated about the committee writing a letter. It should be sent to the Departments of the Taoiseach and Foreign Affairs and Trade rather than being sent directly to Mr. Sammy Wilson because it could antagonise certain people.

Chairman: Is there a seconder for Senator Jim D’Arcy’s proposal?

Deputy Seán Crowe: I have no difficulty in seconding it. However, there might be merit in also sending the letter - with the names of all the individuals present at this meeting attached - to Mr. Sammy Wilson. I accept that he might be irritated by our raising the issue, but there is no doubt that it must be done. Whether it is a gentle nudge or a kick in the arse, Sammy needs to wake up to the fact that this project must proceed. I apologise for the language.

Chairman: Yes, we are in public session.

Ms Margaret Richie: Many Deputies and Senators have asked what we can do, in practical terms, to move the project forward. The two Governments are co-guarantors of the Good Friday Agreement. We have already spoken to the Taoiseach and representations have been made on an individual basis to Prime Minister Cameron. The Taoiseach and the Prime Minis- ter must act together to bring pressure to bear on the Northern Ireland Executive in order that the remaining funding will be released. This would allow for the construction of the bridge within the short timeframe for delivery. If the project is not delivered in time, there could be consequences. We would appear pretty damn foolish in the eyes of the European Commission and the European Union if money had to be returned. That cannot happen. We must approach the two Prime Ministers to put pressure on the Northern Ireland Executive. By all means, we should write to the Executive to outline why the bridge needs to be delivered. I would send a copy of the letter to every Minister in the Executive.

Chairman: I thank Ms Richie. We will now take final comments. Given that we are all on the same page, I ask everyone to be brief in what he or she has to say.

Mr. Mark Kelly: Everyone has referred to the tourism potential. I represent a small, family-run construction firm. The construction industry has been decimated. If the project goes ahead, it will ensure some people will be able to remain at home rather than emigrating. The jobs relating to the project would be of assistance in helping to end the recession which I have no doubt will end. Those involved in the construction industry, North and South, have highlighted the fact that there is a great economic multiplier to be gained from construction projects. For every £1 or €1 spent, there is a multiplier of 2.85 in the wider economy. That would mean more jobs just by getting the construction project off the ground. My colleagues will comment further on the economic benefits that will accrue beyond this. I thank the joint committee for its time.

Ms Olga Fitzpatrick: I thank members for listening to us and their support. There is no point in reiterating what has been said. We are all on the same page when it comes to supporting the bridge project, but I wish to make two points which have not been made. The first relates to the historical implications of the bridge. This will be the first bridge to be built between south- 11 Narrow Water Bridge: Discussion ern Ireland and Northern Ireland since the formation of the State. That is a momentous development which will help to increase tourism. People will come to see the bridge because of its historical implications. The second point is that tourists who arrive in Dublin or Belfast usually stay on the motorway and do not come off it to visit our area. However, the bridge will provide an incentive for them to come and visit. This will increase the level of tourism in the area.

Mr. Paddy Mathews: I am involved in tourism and see this as a major benefit to us. As far as we are concerned, tourists do not venture as far as the Border because the infrastructures are not linked in the way they could be. As the owner of a transport company which regularly operates on both sides of the Border to accommodate day-long and extended tours, I see the benefits of the new markets which could be opened up. My company brings the message on cross-Border tourism to trade shows all across the United States. There are five American tours travelling around the area. We will be on a further trade mission from 5 to 17 June which will target states on the west coast of America such as Oregon, Washington, California, Idaho, Mon- tana, New Mexico, etc.

It is important to highlight the peace dimension of this matter. Three of the tours to which I refer are from the University of Georgia, Allegheny College and the University of Pittsburgh. Those on the tours are studying the effects of the Good Friday Agreement on our shared history in the Border area, the undiscovered jewel in the crown of Irish tourism. We need to encourage as many people as possible to experience both sides of it. The tourism potential is huge. These two beautiful areas which span County Louth and south County Down bring an additional focus on Carlingford Lough and its environs. The bridge would improve connectivity between the new Boyne Valley drive in counties Louth and Meath and the Mourne coastal drive, as well as being an attraction in its own right. We have invested heavily in this project and hope it will go ahead.

Mr. Jim Boylan: I thank all members for their support for the project. Someone inquired as to what we were seeking the joint committee to do. This is part of the Good Friday Agree- ment which, as we see it, is between the two Governments. In that context, pressure should be brought to bear on them. We have met everyone in politics bar the Finance Minister - that is an issue in itself. As business people we can see it moving forward, and as ordinary people we have moved a long way ahead of the politics of it. I am in the Warrenpoint, Burren & Rostrevor Chamber of Commerce, which is perceived to be Nationalist, and yet we work well with the Kilkeel Chamber of Commerce, which is perceived to be Unionist, but we do not see the difference. That is an example of the Good Friday Agreement working. The Minister is weeks away from making a decision. The decision should be made on a level business basis with regard to people power. It should not be made on the basis of not wanting to join up with so and so.

I started this campaign approximately five years ago, and when it was first knocked back, we went out with Sinn Féin, the SDLP and the Unionists. We got more than 3,000 names in one weekend to get this project up and running. This is a people’s project. Politics is for the people and by the people. This is politics working. Ultimately, this is about people who must put food on the table, put oil in the tank and get to work. That is what this Narrow Water bridge is about. It cannot fail, it will not fail and it should not fail. All the politicians involved, whether from the North or South, should be backing it. It should not take six months to carry out a business plan or make a decision. If we took six months to produce a business plan in any of our businesses, we would be out of business quickly. It should not take six months. Whatever pressure can be put on whatever source should be brought to bear to point out that it is a matter, not of politics but of people. It is time that this moved on. The time is now. We only have a couple of weeks

12 Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and it must not fail. It is a major European project.

Chairman: We will have a final word from Mr. Paddy Malone. I realise we are already over time and that there is another group waiting.

Mr. Paddy Malone: I wish to reiterate the point about the region. Effectively, the region stretches as far north as the Giant’s Causeway and as far south as Glendalough. Some 3.1 million people live within 90 minutes of Dundalk, Newry and Warrenpoint. That is the size we are talking about.

The Louth Economic Forum operates under the chairmanship of Padraic White, and I wish to acknowledge his work. The forum has strongly recommended that we include the Slieve Gullion area of Armagh as part of this. It is critical to understand that the area cannot sell by itself. The Cooley Peninsula will not work by itself, the Mourne district might work but Slieve Gullion by itself will not. However, the three areas combined offer a genuine alternative to the Cork-Kerry axis, with all due respect.

Chairman: I realise some Members did not contribute today but they are supportive of the project. Senator Terry Brennan, who is outside the committee, tried to come in, but we are over time. Deputy Joe O’Reilly has spoken on this issue previously as well, and I appreciate that.

Some proposals have been put forward. I propose we write to the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and include a full transcript of the contributions today. Each member is reported in the transcript. I propose to encourage the Taoiseach, who has regular contact with the British Prime Minister, to use his influence to highlight the importance of this project and to press for a decision. Timing is all important at an executive level.

Senator Mary Moran: We should encourage the Tánaiste as well.

Senator Mary M. White: What about the Minister with responsibility for finance in the North?

Chairman: We have consensus and general agreement on how we should go about it. We should write to Westminster and Dublin with the ultimate objective of getting a decision from the Executive. I thank members for their contributions and I thank the witnesses for the presentations today, which we welcome. Mr. Boylan put it in a nutshell when he said that it is not about politics but people.

If the witnesses want to do some research, there is a bridge in Donegal from the Fanad Pen- insula to the Rosguill Peninsula. Prior to the bridge being built, all the talk was of the bridge, but no one mentions the bridge any more. Now, people there talk about being able to go to the post office, going to get a pint of milk and going to mass. The whole dynamic of the communities and their interaction has changed. At one stage, like Warrenpoint, south Down and County Louth, there were ferry boats, but there are no ferry boats there anymore. Mr. Boylan put it well when he said it is about people, not politics. We support him and thank him for coming today.

Mr. Jim Boylan: I thank the Chairman.

Sitting suspended at 12.35 p.m. and resumed at 12.40 p.m.

Domestic Violence: Discussion

13 Domestic Violence: Discussion Chairman: On behalf of the committee I welcome Ms Marie Brown from Foyle Women’s Aid. Ms Jo Corcoran is here as well. No doubt they made the trip down this morning from Derry. We look forward to the presentation, particularly on its work. Afterwards members will make a few observations and may ask questions. The committee would be delighted to hear the input of the delegation.

Before I invite the witnesses to make their presentation, I advise them that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances at this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease to make remarks on a particular matter but continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter to only a qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments and evidence related directly to the subject matter of this meeting are to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Ms Marie Brown to proceed with her opening statement.

Ms Marie Brown: Much that has been spoken, in terms of the armed conflict in the North, primarily centred around paramilitary and State violence. Victims have spoken movingly of their stories, their quest for justice and justice denied. Horrific as this violence was, and con- tinues to be in some cases, there is another masked and hidden violence. Thousands of victims have gone to Rape Crisis Centres, counselling, Women’s Aid and other organisations because they suffered horrendous domestic and sexual abuse. They are victims of hidden crimes or what the UN Security Council Resolution 1325 refers to as a political crime.

We refer to this type of violence as being hidden. It is generally and inadequately reflected in the reporting of crime statistic figures in the North. Over the years piecemeal research has been conducted in the North. Some years ago the National Women’s Council, in conjunction with Foyle Women’s Aid, held public conferences on the issue and called it the “other violence”. There was little support or awareness of what these women and children had to go through.

Today, I sent the committee a presentation on the family justice centre and Foyle Women’s Aid is keen to commence the project on the island of Ireland. I supplied as much information as I could in the presentation and I am happy to answer questions. We want to open a Family Justice Centre because there are still many barriers to justice for women, children and men in the North. The proposed family justice centre would also cater for men.

We have a legacy of policing being housed in large buildings that are inaccessible or intimi- dating and are under threat of attack by dissident groups. There is no normality of services and the buildings can prevent families from approaching them. Sometimes people are intimidated and threatened by communities if they seek justice or take their cases through the natural pro- cesses that take place anywhere else. Sometimes the politics of the North takes precedence over domestic violence services. For example, a dissident threat or something that happens at a political level leads to all of the domestic violence services disappearing on those days.

Domestic violence impacts on young people and families. Domestic violence can lead to certain behaviour in many young people that needs support. They need help to deal with the matter. Unfortunately, some of these young people are dealt with in a very violent fashion within communities. It has become common for some of our young people to be led up lanes and shot in their knees. People accept that as being okay and view it as normal. We need to address

14 Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement some of the issues of anti-social behaviour in other ways and get rid of such violent behaviour.

All services provided to all victims must be professional and all of the professionals must sing off the same hymn sheet. Sexual violence also needs to be addressed. There has been a gap in services throughout the 30 years of violence. Women have told Women’s Aid about sexual violence that they could not speak about before. We need to examine how to provide them with a service. Many of the cases in the courts are historical ones that happened 30 years ago.

All family violence damages individuals, families and communities. Investing in communities without tackling domestic terrorism, which in itself destroys communities and families, means that we do not have peace. We cannot have peace without tackling the matter. My group seeks the support of the committee to develop the first family justice centre in Ireland and to work in partnership with the South. I hope that we can further develop the project. We have already signed up with the European Alliance and I shall visit the US at the end of June. We have also signed up with the US Alliance and hope that Ireland will be included in the provision of services that will be developed in Europe and the US.

I thank the committee and hope that it will support me in starting to address the violent culture in Ireland, to stop it flourishing any further and to achieve some meaningful peace in the North. I am open to answering any questions.

Chairman: I thank Ms Brown. Does Ms Corcoran wish to speak? Does she wish to wait until after the members?

Ms Jo Corcoran: Let the members speak first.

Chairman: I call on Deputy Brendan Smith. I wish to acknowledge that he was our point of contact for the group attending today.

Deputy Brendan Smith: Like the Chairman, I welcome Ms Brown and Ms Corcoran and compliment them on their work in their local communities. Their presence today has helped to create a greater awareness of very difficult issues among public representatives and, hopefully, the wider society. Ms Brown mentioned issues that confront many individuals and families. She also mentioned that “hidden” violence is not adequately reported. If issues are not adequately reported or there is a lack of awareness then they will not be tackled. Therefore, it is important that the delegation had this opportunity, and has the same opportunity at other fora, to outline the difficulties, challenges and the need to provide adequate services for people.

I accept the excellent point made by Ms Brown that sometimes people who are vulnerable or in difficult circumstances are reluctant to go to an institutional building that is associated with a major State and statutory organisation. I presume that when she talked about a family justice centre that she was talking about services being provided in a more supportive environment. Did she mean that there should be a service for the community, not just a State imposed service? Does she want a family justice centre to be in one building and providing a number of services ranging from health to other supports? Does she want it modelled on another family justice centre? Having read the presentation I understood that the family justice centre would be the first of its kind in Europe? Did she model it on another centre? Is it a greenfield idea by the group?

Obviously adequate funding should be provided. I presume that some services are already being provided by the State. Does Ms Brown hope to bring them in under the family justice centre umbrella? If so, there would be better co-ordination and outturn from the point of view 15 Domestic Violence: Discussion of the service provider and the service recipient. Another tranche of funding will be available from PEACE IV programme to deal with issues and legacy issues. Ms Brown mentioned legacy cases and that some of the incidents were 30 years old or older. Has the group sought funding for new facilities or whatever from the special European Union programme? I have listened to the presentation. It is the sort of project we should support that would make a difference on a daily basis to people who are obviously in a difficult position.

I compliment Ms Browne and Ms Corcoran on their work, which is very important, in an area that must be adequately resourced. I come across domestic violence as a representative of a large rural constituency like Cavan-Monaghan but not to the extent that might happen in more urban areas. That is the make-up of the constituency but there are incidents of domestic violence, although not to the extent outlined today.

Deputy Joe O’Reilly: I welcome the witnesses to the committee. It is disturbing to hear them talking about violent activities in such terms. Presumably, however, levels have reduced, although it still happens. Has there been a reduction or a recent increase? That is a real concern.

I am not up to speed on the situation in Northern Ireland but I presume there is mandatory reporting so if people approach the organisation, it must report to the police. How does that affect the group’s work? I remember the principal of a small primary school saying to me once that if she started mandatory reporting in her area, she would have to close the school because everyone is related. The culture has changed since I had that conversation but I wonder how it works now.

How would the centre function? Is it a therapeutic space and how would people access it? Would it be similar to a citizens’ advice clinic?

Again, I welcome the witnesses. It is good they are here and that this work is progressing.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy: I also welcome the group and thank the women for the presentation and commend them on the work they are doing. I too would like to hear other examples of what the group wants for this family justice centre. Are there similar examples in other jurisdictions? What services would it offer? Would it be a law centre or would broader services be available? In Australia at one stage there were proposals for family relationship centres but the idea was to move some family law out of the courts for mediation. I do no know how they transpired but I was very interested at the time. When it is possible to negotiate, that is the way forward.

Deputy Joe O’Reilly: It would be interesting to hear the project costs as well.

Deputy Seán Crowe: In my constituency there is a women’s refuge. Deputy Smith mentioned this perhaps being more common in urban areas but I do not know if that is the case, although I am certainly aware of it. I recently dealt with a family where the partner had a serious crack cocaine drug problem. The house was being turned into a crack house, there were children there, domestic violence, and people were coming in to intimidate others and to look for money for drugs, and guns were being produced. It is similar to some of the worst cases the group has dealt with in its own centre. There was a difficulty, however, in trying to rehouse the woman in a refuge and after a time she wanted to move back into the house. There were no support services and she was literally moving back into a tip with young children and very little support for basic services like having the door fixed. If these support services were in place it would be a massive help, with a one-stop-shop for services that would give people more con- fidence to escape this situation. It is a visionary idea in that sense. How would it impact on

16 Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement existing services and how would they be complementary? Would it pull the services into the centre or would it be additional to them?

How can connections be made for training on a North-South basis? Funding is the difficult area. The centre will be based in a relatively old building so I presume that could cause some problems. Is it a safe and secure area? We are talking about figures of up to 1,000 cases per month but would that be for throughout the North? Would they all be directed to this centre?

Ms Marie Brown: It would be throughout an area.

Deputy Seán Crowe: Is the organisation looking for support from us to secure European funding? Will there be accommodation and will it be on a long-term or short-term basis?

I am on a committee that is looking at human trafficking and the North is no different from the South on this issue, with young vulnerable women being exploited. Would the centre be a safe location for them? This could help to secure resources for the centre. The committee is looking at relations between Ireland and Britain and how to maximise resources and services to help overcome the difficulties these women and their families are facing.

Chairman: I thank the members for their contributions. How heightened is the dissident threat that Ms Brown mentioned? An all-Ireland centre was also mentioned. Has any location been chosen? How advanced is planning on this?

Ms Marie Brown: I will start and if I leave anything out, I am sure members will let me know. The family justice centre will offer existing services, so it does not displace any services, but they will be collocated in the old convent building. The idea is that everyone will be trained and while they will have different professions, we will all have the same approach. Research has shown that families must make as many as 23 visits to other agencies when domestic or sexual violence first occurs. They get worn out and that is a barrier to their coming forward. Having the agencies in place and making the agencies do the work instead of the victims has been shown to be more successful.

I first saw that model seven years ago in New York. In New York I was part of a community builder programme, which is a peace building programme. I saw the programme in operation and was instantly attracted because it was working in a diverse city with many communities. I was also attracted to it because of the difficulties we were experiencing in Northern Ireland where some communities will not go forward to the police either because of the past or because they felt intimidated. The services were not working for a range of other reasons but other models are available. The family justice centre will sign up to a partnership with a centre in San Diego where the main training academy for family justice centres in the United States is located. When I visited New York, one family justice centre was in place and a second one was in development. There are now six family justice centres in New York, one in each borough, and they are being established elsewhere. For example, five other European countries, including Germany, are starting to develop family justice centres. We will sign up to a partnership with these centres and we hope to receive some European funding to help us develop something in the North.

If we have one centre on the island, we will have a place to bring people. It would be possible to provide joint training for staff and various agencies. I do not know how this would develop but given the very tight budgets, we could certainly do much more in terms of sharing some of the things around domestic violence and adopting existing models rather than invent-

17 Domestic Violence: Discussion ing new ones or paying for different training. We have already established links to a group in Galway. The family justice centres work very well because satellite clinics can be established in rural areas where people do not have the same supports as people in urban areas. We will have to take an innovative approach. We have developed Internet and texting services and women are starting to contact us through the Internet. For example, we use Skype, social media and so forth to try to reach families who would be difficult to reach otherwise.

In terms of the trafficking of women, our centre has been designated one of the centres to provide accommodation and services for trafficked women. We work with the Executive to provide these services and trafficked women come into the centre. All of those who come to us at present do so on referral from the police. Like everything else, when one starts to work in a certain area, one realises that there is a problem. In the case of trafficking, we are starting to realise that it exists. Trafficked women receive automatic support in the centre through an inter-agency approach. We hope to be able to provide free legal advice and obtain funding for an on-the-day big barrier for women. People seem to forget about women who are working or are on limited budgets. The legal process can be very expensive and receiving good advice on what one’s options are immediately and knowing what is available can reduce confusion and remove the need for running around. For this reason, it is important for agencies to work together to decide how to provide help and support.

Ms Corcoran had a meeting with our “Voices” group and one of the main issues that arose was social security and the blockages and barriers facing working women, for example, those who have a house to sell and do not have money to live on. Agencies must come together and share resources if they are to work more effectively. In our case, one agency at a time will deal with a family and all the agencies know what the others are doing. It is a poor use of resources to have six agencies becoming involved in one family simultaneously and then all of them moving on at the same time.

Our centre is a build to invest scheme. It is located in a convent in Derry which is a listed, protected building. Derry is the City of Culture 2013. The centre is in the city centre which means any woman can walk in while shopping. We selected the location because it is neutral and we are open to all creeds. We plan to have an exhibition centre to celebrate women’s contribution in Northern Ireland and other issues. The exhibition centre, like the coffee shop, will operate as a social economy business and all of the proceeds will go to families.

We are examining how to get families into back to work schemes. We have a training agency and a business plan has been done with PricewaterhouseCoopers. Two partners from London were so interested in work that they made a commitment to provide volunteers for five years to help us with some of our work.

I referred to under-reporting of domestic violence. Derry has the highest rate of reporting in Northern Ireland because we reviewed services and took a creative approach to how we reach women.

In terms of housing, we have built 16 houses on the site and we have another site with nine apartments. The women will be housed at these locations. This was done on a business model under which we acquired land, negotiated with government and resold it. We have a treatment centre, which will open in Derry in September. I invite members to visit the centre, which will offer programmes and courses as well as child care facilities. We will receive direct referrals from social services and we also have workers in one of the police stations. This is how we receive referrals of sexual violence cases. The model is based on a model I observed in Boston. 18 Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement Women may not speak about rape to police officers but many will speak to women’s advocates on site in a police station. We are required by law to report crimes and we inform women that we must report any crimes to the police. Increasingly, women are starting to come forward. Our criminal justice workers are available to support the families in question in the process. One of the major shortcomings of the process is that women tend to fall out of the process if they are not kept fully informed or if supports are withdrawn.

There is also a great deal of intimidation. The dissident threat is alive and well. In some communities in Northern Ireland it is not considered acceptable for people to go forward to the police. Those who do so will feel intimidated and threatened. We have to get past this obstacle. This is the reason I would like to bring the police in with other agencies. Derry has the only domestic violence unit in Northern Ireland. Having campaigned for and secured this unit, I would like the police who are involved in it to work alongside their colleagues in social services and victim support. There is no limit to what we want. Whatever needs women identify, we want them to be made available. The domestic violence unit is already in place; it is simply a matter of providing a place for it in the building. The statutory agencies’ role is to pay the rent and maintain the building. We would have victim support and the different agencies in place.

There are still dissident and community threats. Some of this involves the obvious physical threat from dissidents, while in other respects it is a much more cloaked threat. One needs to be careful where one puts money into communities. We need to ensure communities do not start to deal with these issues alone. These problems must not be buried in communities as this would create ghettos in which the problems would become worse. That is my concern. For this reason, we need to have a neutral building and accessible policing. This means people should not have to pass through four security gates and barricades to enter a police station before having to give their name in a loud voice. One would be seen on the street outside when one was going in and one could be asked, “Are you an informer?” Those are the real barriers to going into a police station. If we take them out and put police in with their colleagues and start to normalise the position, then communities will become normalised in turn because people will be able to walk in off the street.

Reference was made to trafficked women. There are also women who are in forced marriages. Such marriages are happening in Northern Ireland and we keep a register in respect of them. Any woman who is leaving the country can register the fact that she is doing so and where she has been. Those are the issues which are emerging. We have new communities coming into Northern Ireland and we quickly need to come to terms with some of the issues that arise for these families if we are to get a grip on matters. We need to do this soon before areas become controlled, meaning that families cannot get out. I sit on the policing partnership in Derry and the latest matter with which it dealt related to ten year olds. Community representatives were chastising parents about their children being on the streets and social services became involved. That is not a matter with which community representatives with no training should be dealing. It is, rather, for the relevant agencies and the justice centres to consider issues relating to families with problems.

We have a range of training, we are involved in schools and we have healthy relationships with those with whom we work. We have a great deal of work which is ongoing. We were in Galway recently doing some joint work with the people there and we shared information on how we operate. That is our view in terms of the justice centre. Central to that will be the voices forum. We will always invite women to the voices forum in order that they might evalu- ate matters for us, provide feedback in respect of what is missing and what should be included

19 Domestic Violence: Discussion and outline their experiences. Women are central to all of this. I really believe that the police in America would not have invested money in this if there was a possibility that it would not work. Family justice centres are springing up right across the US. They are invest-to-save models and we will definitely share resources. However, we can also be more creative in what we develop for families because we will have access to joint expertise. We will get to know each other’s boundaries. Part of the design of the justice centres is that they are open-plan. Dividing walls and separate offices are not allowed. It is not just about co-location.

We are working with the Strathclyde police in Scotland, which has a very impressive record in respect of domestic violence. Their chief inspector visited us and stated that one would have to have three heads in order to work in the domestic violence area in Northern Ireland. He saw the difficulties involved and was shocked at the state of the police station. He said, “No victim alive would go in there. How can you operate?” I informed him how we do so. The Strath- clyde police have co-located with victim services in Scotland and we are meeting with them and examining their toolkit. It will not be just about the American model; we will also consider best practice from elsewhere and transfer it to our centre. If we have that, then we can try to share it right across the board. We cover particular areas but women everywhere can contact us and we will link them with services in or near their own areas. We will also provide advice. There are men who also suffer. For example, some men have experienced sexual violence. This will also provide an opportunity for them to come forward. When they do so, they require immedi- ate support and access to proper expertise. That is what we hope the justice centre will provide.

Deputy Brendan Smith: Am I correct in thinking that the residential element of the facility is in place?

Ms Marie Brown: Yes.

Deputy Brendan Smith: Is it the case that the family justice centre will provide services rather than-----

Ms Marie Brown: Yes.

Deputy Brendan Smith: The overall project should not, therefore, be as daunting a prospect. I had thought that both residential and-----

Ms Marie Brown: No.

Deputy Brendan Smith: So it is not as daunting a prospect as I would initially have be- lieved. I thank Ms Brown for the further elaboration she has provided because it brings great clarity in respect of the need for the development of the centre in order that it might provide services to those who need them.

Ms Marie Brown: We have also worked with our local magistrate. We have a special domestic violence listing and we are now working towards the development of a specialist domestic violence court. This is why our location is the best one for the centre. As a result of the fact that we have developed so much and we have the treatment centre with inter-agency involvement already in place - the investment in this regard was £4 million and the project has just been completed - the justice centre will be the front-line service. This will enable those on the front line to come up to speed. Any agency can refer people on to any or all of the facilities we have managed to put in place. We just received £500,000 from the lottery in order to examine the position with regard to anti-social behaviour and acting out among ten to 18 year olds. That anti-social behaviour stems from children living with violence and also from the fact that 20 Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement there is a perception about an acceptable level of violence in the street. These children know nothing else. We are really starting to look at helping them cope with some of the violence with which they have grown up. We are also examining different ways of approaching how they behave and considering other anti-violence work.

The treatment centre will be completed in June and will open in September. We are going to open it as part of changing the culture in Derry because domestic and other violence have been a large part of our culture. They were present before the Troubles and they certainly flourished during the latter. They could flourish again if we do not take action now. I would love the members of the committee to visit the centre while Derry is UK City of Culture.

Chairman: I thank Ms Brown for the invitation and I will now take a final contribution from Senator White.

Senator Mary M. White: I was spellbound as I listened to Ms Brown. The work her organisation is doing is amazing. I would love to visit the centre in order to see what is being done there. Is the problem of domestic violence across all social classes?

Ms Marie Brown: Absolutely. Sometimes we tend to think of those affected as women who experience social deprivation. That is not the case. We have outreach workers who go out into the community and into family homes. It can happen to women from every walk of life. We also take referrals in respect of men and then signpost them. In the past couple of weeks we received referrals in respect of three gay men who suffered domestic violence in their relationships and we were able to signpost these forward.

The justice centre will be inclusive of everybody. If someone walks in and we do not have a service for them, then we will learn to provide it. The centre will be an evolving one. The services are already in place but we are just not working as effectively as we could. If we house them all together, it will be a build-to-save project because we can cut down on the resources required and then redistribute them where they are needed - by the people. We provide social economy training. The social economy business managed to give £30,000 to Foyle Women’s Aid last year and this money was put towards building a crèche and child care facility.

Another thing we are doing is looking at breaking the cycle. In that context, we are examining the position with regard to young people and babies. We need to intervene in this regard in order to break the cycles to which I refer. We provide massage facilities and health visitors come in to the centre. We are using and sharing our resources. I am currently working with social services to put a manager in place. Instead of money, social services is going to give me a person. It is about being creative in how we share and it is also about not trying to own it ourselves. The focus must be on the victims.

Chairman: I thank Ms Brown. She has provided us with tremendous insight, which is important. Perhaps this is the start of the conversation. If we are in the north west, we will take up her very kind invitation. I commend our guests on their work. They are strong advocates not just for women but also in respect of other matters, such as supporting families and communities. Ultimately, they are helping to rebuild Northern Ireland and to create a vision for a new Northern Ireland. We wish them well in their work. On the issue of human trafficking, Committee D of the British Irish Parliamentary Assembly, chaired by Lord Dubs, is focusing on that matter at present and is taking submissions on it from various groups. If the witnesses are interested in getting in touch with that committee, the clerk to this committee will facilitate them.

21 Domestic Violence: Discussion Again, I thank the witness for attending this meeting. The committee will now meet in private session and we must vacate the room within 20 minutes.

The committee went into private session at 1.22 p.m. and adjourned at 1.35 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 30 May 2013.