[Wednesday, 27 July 1983]35 315 ?&gwitatuwr (lhuxil CAPITAL PUNISHMENT Enforcement: Petition Wednesday, 27 July 1983 On motions by the Hon. Margaret McAleer, the following petition bearing the signatures of 811 persons was received, read, and ordered to lie The PRESIDENT (the Hon. Clive Griffiths) took upon the Table of the House- the Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. To the Honourable the President and BILLS (2): ASSENT Members of the Legislative Council of the Parliament of Western Australia in Parlia- Message from the Governor received and read ment assembled. notifying assent to the following Bills- WE, the undersigned citizens of Western 1. Prevention of Excessive Prices Amendment Australia affirm that:- Bill. I. Capital punishment was and still is 2. Acts Amendment (Prevention of Excessive commanded by God in the Bible as Prices) Bill. a punishment for capital crimes. 2. A government's primary responsi- GOVERNMENT AGENCIES: STANDING bility is to protect the rights and COMMITTEE freedoms of law-abiding citizens. The possibility of release on parole Report or escape of criminals threatens the THE HON. R. J. L. WILLIAMS safety of society. (Metropolitan) [4.31 p.m.]: I have the honour to 3. Gaol terms very rarely rehabilitate present the second report of the Standing Com- criminals. Experience has shown mittee on Government Agencies I move- that ex-prisoners generally commit That the report be received, and be laid on further crimes. the Table of the House and be implemented. 4. The expense of maintaining crimi- Question put and passed. nals in imprisonment for the term of life is not justified. The report was tabled (see paper No. 179). We therefore entreat that capital punishment CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES be left on the Statutes of Western Australia, and enforced as a law of this State. Election Your Petitioners therefore humbly pray that THE PRESIDENT (the Hon. Clive Griffiths); you will give this matter earnest consider- Honourable members, the office of Chairman of ation and your Petitioners, as in duty bound, Committees is vacant and it is therefore necessary will ever pray. for the Council to proceed to the election of one of (See paper No. 166.) its members to fill the vacancy. Are there any nominations? LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL: TAPE THE HON. TOM KNIGHT (South) f43 RECORDERS p.m.]:. It is my pleasure to nominate the Hon. Use: Statement by President David John Wordsworth. THE HON. D. K. DANS (South Metropo- The PRESIDENT (the H-on. Clive Griffiths): politan-Leader of the House) [4.34 p.m.]: It is Honourable members, as you already know, the my pleasure to nominate the Hon. Robert debates in this House are now tape recorded. To avoid any doubts arising in relation to the use of 'Hetherington. such tapes, Mr Speaker and I have formulated the [The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth and the Hon. following rules which will apply to the tapes Robert Hetherington having accepted nomination, whether in the Clerks' or Hansard'spossession. a ballot was taken with the I-on. Tom McNeil (1) Where in the course of debate a dispute acting as scrutineer and the Hon. D. J. arises as to words actually spoken, the Wordsworth was elected by a majority of votes.] presiding officer may listen to the tape The PRESIDENT: I declare the Hon. David in the course of reaching his decisio'n; Wordsworth to be elected as Chairman of Com- (2) Access will not be granted to any mem- mittees. ber, including a member whose words Opposition members: Hear, hear! are impugned, to the tape-recording un- 316 316[COUNCIL)

less the presiding officer is of the op- The question is that the motion be agreed to. inion that such access is reasonable and There being no dissentient voice, I declare the likely to result in resolution of any dis- motion carried with an absolute majority. pute. Question thus passed. I emphasise that Hansard remains the official re- cord of debates. If a member believes a mistake Receipt and First Reading has been made in the transcript of his or her Bill received from the Assembly; and, on mo- speech the matter should be raised with the Chief tion by the Hon. Peter Dowding (Minister for Hansard Reporter. If a member is not satisfied Mines), read a first time. with the Chief Hansard Reporter's decision the matter should be referred to me and my decision Second Reading will be final. THE HON. PETER DO WDING Relay speakers carrying the proceedings of (North-Minister for Mines) [5.56 p.m.]: I each House are being installed. I must remind move- honourable members that any form of taping, re- That the Bill be now read production or broadcast of proceedings involving a second time. the use of the relay system is done without protec- This Bill seeks to amend the Firearms Act to the tion of parliamentary privilege. Equally, any extent of authorising officers of the Agriculture member or person who uses the relay system for Protection Board to use, under strict controls, such purposes may well be in breach of the privi- silencers on firearms when in pursuit of birds leges of this House and be liable to be dealt with commonly known as starlings, or sturnus vulgaris. accordingly. I trust honourable members and A degree of urgency relates to this legislation in other will act responsibly in this matter. view of a known number of the birds entering Western Australia, via the Nullabor Plain. This QUESTIONS urgcncy is compounded by the onset of the mating and nesting season. Questions were taken at this stage. Starlings were brought to Australia from [Resolved: That motions be continued.] England in the 1850s and within the next 22 years they were established in New South Wales and FIREARMS AMENDMENT BILL Queensland and later still in South Australia as Standing Orders Suspension: Motion far west as Ceduna. Improved man-made facili- ties across the Nullarbor in recent years have as- THE MON. D. K. DANS (South Metro- sisted the migration of these birds and they have politan-Leader of the House) [5.54 p.m.]: I now moved further west to the swamp country at move, without notice- Esperance. That Standing Orders be suspended so far From October 1982, over 500 Starlings have as to enable the Firearms Amendment Bill to been monitored on the Nullarbor. At present only be introduced and passed through all stages 36 at Mundrabilla and two at Eucla are known to in one sitting. remain.- As is usual at the commencement of a session of The Agriculture Protection Board believes it Parliament certain legislation of an urgent nature has used all available methods of control, includ- requires attention prior to the adoption of the Ad- ing trapping with decoy birds in "crow traps", dress-in-Reply motion. using poison in water during hot dry stretches, ex- Members will have noted my intention to move plosives, netting, and, of course, shooting from for the suspension of Standing Orders in respect hides. of four other Bills which should be received in this of the count of 500 from October, approxi- House during the next week or so. However, the mately 100 have not been positively accounted for Firearms Amendment Bill is considered to be of in the control methods previously mentioned. immediate urgency, which urgency w ill be de- However, some of those may have died beyond tailed by the Minister in charge of the Bill in his the reach of marksmen and some probably re- second reading speech. turned eastwards to the South Australian agricul- Delay in attending to the proposed legislation tural areas when the season broke. could prove detrimental to the objects of the Bill. The remaining birds are very difficult to ap- I commend the motion to the House. proach. Those that escape from any explosion be- The PRESIDENT: This motion requires the come quiet wary as do those that are not located concurrence of an absolute majority of the House. by the marksmen but are frightened by the gun [Wednesday, 27 July 1983])1 317 noise. One nesting pair, if left unhindered, could shall not use a silencer otherwise than in raise 12 young. conjunction with a .22 calibre rifle named All the previously mentioned methods, except and identified in the corporate firearm li- the use of explosives, have been used at cence held by the Agriculture Protection Esperance. Currently approximately 45 starlings Board; remain, 85 having been destroyed since last shall take all reasonable precautions to en- October. sure the safekeeping of a silencer possessed, carried, or used by him; While the Government acknowledges the shall, when not using or about to use a seriousness and concern expressed in the pos- silencer, keep the silencer separate from any session and use of silencers, it is believed that the Firearm in conjunction with which it is need to destroy the last remaining Esperance star- capable of being used; and lings is of paramount importance. An escape by shall, when directed to surrender, or no any of these birds could see them quickly re-es- longer requires the use of the silencer, sur- tablish in the favourable swamp habitats of that render that silencer to a member of the region and from there quickly spread throughout Police Force at the nearest police station. Western Australia. Any digression from the strict requirements of the Starlings are a most undesirable bird, being a Bill, or the directions of the Commissioner of pest of various forms of agriculture; in particular, Police, will make the person liable to the penalty cereal growing, orchards, and vineyards. In ad- presently applying to the unlawful possession of a dition, they compete with small native birds for silencer; that is, $100 or six months' environmental space and affect the balance of imprisonment; or for use of a silencer, $200 or 12 species. In the cities and more settled areas they months' imprisonment. cause fouling and contamination of buildings I commend the Bill to the when they become established. House. Sitting suspended from 6.02 to 7,30 p.m. The purpose of this Bill is to allow the officers of the Agriculture Protection Board, under very THE HON. G. E. MASTERS (West) [7.30 strict statutory requirements, the use of silencers p.m.]: The Opposition generally supports the to facilitate the destruction of this vermin. legislation. Naturally we have one or two questions we should like to ask the Minister and I Under the provisions of the Bill, the Minister am sure he will be able to answer them. However, for Police and Emergency Services may authorise in general terms, we support the Bill. officers, or employees of the Agriculture Protec- We recognise the need for very strict control tion Board, to possess, carry, and use a silencer, such silencer to be used only in conjunction with a over firearms, ammunition, and silencers, and the .22 calibre rifle licensed by the board. The auth- police have quite rightly been concerned for a orisation will be for a specified time. However, number of years that the use of silencers and such may be revoked at any time, for any reason. rifles should be controlled strictly within the com- munity. However, the Agriculture Protection The Agriculture Protection Board will not pur- Board has an important role to play and, as far as chase its own silencers, but will use those possible, with all the means at its disposal, it has currently in the possession of the police. At the to protect the most important industry in Aus- cessation of use they will be rcturned to the Police tralia, particularly in Western Australia; that is, Department. the agricultural industry. When an officer or employee is granted an The success of the agricultural industry de- authority, the Bill provides that he shall use such pends to a large extent on the work of the APB. only for the purpose of shooting common starlings Over the years in Western Australia the success in the performance of his duties and- of agriculture has been due partly to the efforts of shall obtain a silencer from a member of such people as the members of the APB and the Police Force at the police station nearest partly to the fact that we enjoy, and will continue to the area in which he proposes to use the to do so, a natural isolation caused by the ocean silencer; around Australia and the large, dry expanse of land between Western Australia and the Eastern shall comply with such directions as are States. This, in itself, creates a quarantine area, if from time to time given to him by a member one likes to express it that way, and pests and dis- of the Police Force acting on the instructions ease have great difficulty influencing our agricul- of the commissioner; tural industry. 318 318[COUNCIL]

Nevertheless, at times-the problem under dis- missioner of Police. I wonder whether, in that cussion is an example-birds and the like make situation, problems could arise with the use of their way across the Nullarbor Plain. As a result, these silencers in townsites. It may be the APR in Esperance now we have a number of starlings would consider it necessary to use these silencers and they have been there for some time. It is obvi- against starlings, Or for whatever purpose, in a ous that if the starlings are allowed to breed they towasite. I wonder whether the police are likely to will cause major problems to the agricultural in- approve of that sort of situation. It is possible the dustry in Western Australia. police would only approve of the silencers being It is important to bear in mind that the star- used in remote, isolated are-as where there is ab- lings are in a small group at present, but it would solute safety. However, silencers and special rifles be a disaster to the agricultural community and are sometimes required to be used in townsites, industry if they continued to breed. No-one would especially if they are to be used to the best advan- be more aware of that than members like Mr tage. Perhaps the Minister could refer to that Gayfer, Mr Wordsworth, and the other farmers matter in his reply. who are in the House today. Obviously we must I intend to raise one or two other matters in do something about the problem. Committee, but I shall mention them briefly now. The legislation proposes to provide another As indicated previously, I understand the Minis- means by which the APB may come to grips with ter will authorise a person to use the silencers. the problem and hopefully exterminate the star- Under section 17 of the Firearms Act, the com- lings before they can breed. It is natural that the missioner is empowered to authorise, the use of police are concerned about the use of rifles and, in certain equipment and I wonder why the pos- particular, rifles with silencers and, therefore, the ition has been changed in the legislation under legislation has been written very carefully. Obvi- discussion. A good reason for that may exist, but I ously if the silencers are misused or abused at any should like to know what it is. Generally speaking. time the public would be in danger. I suggest that, I would have thought the commissioner would be as a result of pressure from the agricultural com- well able to control the use of rifles, ammunition, munity and the APB, the police have agreed, and silencers. A reason may exist for this pro- probably with some reservation, to the vision and it could have resulted from a re- introduction of this Bill and the use of silencers on commendation by the Commissioner of Police. rifles for a particular Purpose, whether it be for Apart from one or two questions which we shall the extermination of starlings or whatever else. raise in the Committee stage, the Opposition gen- It is possible the provision could be seen as a erally supports the legislation, knowing it is precedent, but such a precedent does not necess- necessary and of the greatest importance to the arily have to be of great concern, because, as I farming community. read the Bill, further legislation would need to be THE HON. P. HI. LO)CKYER (Lower North) introduced into the Parliament to enable silencers [7.38 p.m.]: I am pleased the Bill has come before to be used for a purpose other than that which we the House, because I was worried when it became are considering tonight. public knowledge last year that the police had re- The only people who will be able to use these fused to licence the Agriculture Protection Board silencers are the employees of the APB with the to use silencers to deal with starlings or sturnus express authority of the Minister and under the vulgaris, which is their official name. direction of the Commissioner of Police. I imagine I am pleased to see this amendment to the Fire- all the safeguards will be incorporated in the di- arms Act, which will at last allow the APB to use rections and authorities which will enable the use silencers. For some years the APB has been of the equipment. involved in a concentrated effort in this area and I direct a question to the Minister handling the it is to be commended on the success it has Bill in relation to his second reading speech where achieved. he said that the silencers would be available "at In his second reading speech the Minister the nearest police station". I imagine the silencers said- will be held in Perth until such time as they are From October 1982, over 500 starlings required and they will then be transported by the have been monitored on the Nullarbor. At police to the police station adjacent to the area in present only 36 at Mundrabilla and two at which they are to be used. Eucla are known to remain. The Minister said also that the conditions This raises the question as to what the equivalent under which the silencers will be used shall be at Agriculture Protection Boards in the Eastern the direction and on the authority of the Corn- States are doing about the problem over there. I [Wednesday, 27 July 1983139 319 would be most interested to ascertain exactly tored on the Nullarbor Plain since October 1982. what steps are being taken in other States to I wonder how often the APB has asked for and eradicate this pest. It would be interesting to been refused permission to use silencers. know whether anl eradication programme is under Indeed, J1 believe the legislation has been way or whether the other States are ignoring the introduced only because the Esperance Shire problem and allowing these birds to migrate Council took up the case of the APB and drew across the Nullarbor. public attention to the problem. We are most fortunate in this State in that the The Hon. D. K. Dans: Who was the Minister birds apparently need to follow the coastline and for Agriculture in the last Government? cannot migrate in any other way. At least they The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: If the are controlled to that extent. Leader of the Government wishes to do so, he can Further on in his speech the Minister indicated criticise that aspect when he speaks. However, I that the authorisation would be for a specified am presently debating the legislation, because it time. Perhaps the Minister could enlarge a little concerns me. on that comment when he replies to the debate, I farmed in Tasmania where starlings were because I would be alarmed if extremely tight prevalent. Had I asked my neighbours there how controls were not placed on the use of silencers, big a menace or enemy they felt the starling was, especially when one bears in mind current trends very few of them would have said it was a great towards bank robberies and the like becormi.ng an problem. Possibly they would look on us as worry- almost daily occurrence. I certainly would not like ing unnecessarily about starlings, but, neverthe- these silencers to fall into the hands of the wrong less, we do not have a starling problem in this people. I know precautions will be taken in regard State and I wholeheartedly agree this situation to the use of silencers and I note that the Minister should be maintained and we should ensure they made the following comment in his second read- do not migrate to Western Australia. They are ing speech- like noxious weeds. If we can keep them out of ... shall take all reasonable precautions to Western Australia, we should. ensure the safe keeping of a silencer pos- A complete change of stance has occurred com- sessed, carried, or used by him; pared with that taken when starlings were found I take it some requirements will be placed on the only in the Nullarbor. The police felt it was more officers of the APB to the effect that, when they important not to have silencers available in order have finished using the silencers, the silencers will that our State was safer, presumably, for be returned to a specific place where they will be policemen and the public. However, now that we locked away, or some similar provision will be have the number of starlings we have and they are made. We would not want the silencers to fall into so close to our populated areas, the police have the hands of the wrong people. decided to downgrade their requirement for I take it the Police Department will monitor the safety. operation of the legislation very closely, and per- I rang people in South Australia to ask about haps it may not be the strongest supporter of it. the availability of silencers. I was told that However, it is a step in the right direction. We silencers can be purchased across the counter for should not let up in our light against this pest. $25 each and that literally hundreds are sold, Anyone who has been to Europe and seen the mainly to interstate buyers. The people I spoke terrible devastation caused by similar birds would with would not tell me to which States the understand it would be a tragedy if starlings silencers went, but obviously some come to West- found their way into this State in large numbers. ern Australia. I wonder whether our crime rate in Western Australia is lower because we have kept I support the Bill. the APB short of silencers for the number of years THE HON. Db. J. WORDSWORTH (South) it has required them, and whether the police in [7.43 p.m.]: I support the legislation in the knowl- South Australia feet they are at a greater risk be- edge that, as a result of it, the APB will be able to cause silencers are readily available in that State. use silencers when eradicating starlings. Nevertheless, we have this legislation before the The only aspect which worries me is the length House, and not before time. I was somewhat sur- of time this provision has taken to come before prised by how stringent the provisions are. Hope- the House. We have been spending hundreds of fully, South Australia will in the future tighten its thousands of dollars in an endeavour to eradicate firearms legislation and all States in Australia the starling in Western Australia and yet we have will adopt uniform firearms legislation. It would been told that over 500 of them have been moni- be a pretty poor criminal who could not get hold 320 320[COUNCIL] of a silencer if he wanted one. In fact, they are ing the return of a silencer to the police station easy to make. from which it was issued was highlighted in For some time in Western Australia a severe another place. It would be unreasonable for me to penalty has been imposed on anyone in the pos- raise that matter here, but the mistake was quite session of a silencer, while in South Australia serious. It has been corrected. anyone could buy a silencer across the counter. I do support this legislation. It is interesting to Here someone can go to gaol for a year if he is note that if anyone is to be shot as a result of the seen using a silencer. use of these silencers, it will be mne. The swamps As I have said, the legislation is confined to one where these starlings have been found happen to purpose. I wonder whether we should have more be on my property. I have no fear of these general provisions that could be used in other silencers. I have never heard of a person after areas. For instance, if we have an outbreak of bearing a rifle shot having time to duck before the another type of bird or vermin, we will have to bullet gets to him. However, we must get onto this come before the Parliament again to authorise the matter as soon as possible, and the sooner the use of silencers. It would not be unreasonable for legislation goes through this place, the better. the legislation to be more general and the starling THE HON. HI. W. GAYFER (Central) [7.53 declared as a pest under such provisions. p.m.]: I not only support this legislation, but also The silencers are not to be used on any rifle welcome its introduction to this House. It was other than a .22. The Hon. Sandy Lewis has re- interesting to note from the Minister's second ported to this House sightings of cougars in West- reading speech that starlings were introduced to ern Australia. I would not like to try to Fight a the Eastern States from England in the 1850s. cougar with a .22 rifle. They are yet another one of those terrible imports we seem to have had foisted upon us in the early The legislation allows for only particular indi- days, imports such as rabbits, hares, and a few viduals to be authorised to use a silencer. In other others. words, every individual officer of the APB who goes out after starlings must be licensed, although An Opposition member: And shop stewards. I presume that, because only one or two silencers The Hon. H. W. GAYFER: Shop stewards! will be used in the State, only one or two APB Somebody else said "shop stewards", not 1. It is officers will be authorised by the Minister to use a well known starlings can cause a tremendous silencer. amount of damage not only to farms, but also to An APR officer has to go to the nearest police suburban backyards. I do not think most people station to obtain a silencer and then can use it realise the damage starlings can cause to our en- only on the designated rifle. Silencers cannot be vironment. In plague proportions they virtually readily used on different rifles because each rifle strip a wheat crop; they take the grain out of the must be threaded by a gunsmith to take a head. They can do great damage also to straw- silencer. Most people who shoot professionally berry crops by taking the flowers, and they will like to use their own rifles, and as a result I envis- take the flowers from other types of budding age certain complications. If an APR officer is plants which may be the livelihood of many transferred from Geraldton to Esperance to take people. part in the starling hunt, he will not be able to use Starlings are quite capable of fouling our en- the rifle he is accustomed to; he will have to use vironment. Certainly they can get into the rafters the one authorised for a silencer. of all sorts of buildings, and even silos. It is poss- The silencers must be returned to the police ible to seal buildings against starlings, but one station from which they were obtained, which will cannot always seal every nook and cranny. Star- cause difficulties. If there is an outbreak of star- lings are great carriers of Newcastle disease, lings along the coast from my property at which can be readily transferred to poultry. An Esperance, on which the starlings have been outbreak of this disease could cause quite a deal found, the silencers must be returned to the police of damage in our poultry industry. The starling station from which they were obtained and then must be guarded against; we must do all we can transferred by the police to the police station to eradicate the few that exist in Western Aus- nearest to the starlings before the APB officer can tralia. again obtain a silencer. It would be better to pro- Why they have not migrated into Western Aus- vide for APR officers to keep a silencer. One or tralia is generally not known. It seems they must two particular officers could be authorised to use have swamp-like country in which to breed, and a silencer at any place an outbreak of starlings be able to go from one swamp area to another. was reported. A mistake in the provision regard- Every year starlings go from colonies in Siberia [Wednesday, 27 July 19831 321

to England and South Africa. That is 10000 directions on how to use the silencer and where he miles one way, and then they go back again. The can use it. The commissioner must not accept the problem we will have is that if they become accus- advice of the Agriculture Protection Board tomed to migrating to Western Australia from the officer, who would probably know best where and Eastern States and back again, every time they how to use the rifle to shoot these birds. come across'the numbers will increase by a couple In time this clause will need alteration so that of hundred. Once they establish themselves in an those people in the APB who know how to track environment they can reach plague proportions in down these birds, and who have the knowledge of one decade. The Minister mentioned, I think, that how to use the rifle and of other protective a pair of starlings can hatch 12 chicks in one measures, will be given the power to deal with season. They can be a serious problem which, in silencers. my opinion, is being tackled just in time. Some relaxation of the provisions is required. I The Hon. David Wordsworth referred to the am sure the Minister will not relent on any of the hesitation which has existed in adopting this ex- provisions in the Bill, which I believe to be too termination procedure. He quite rightly said that protective. Silencers should be readily available to in South Australia silencers can be purchased people who wish to use them, so that the starlings over the counter. However, I thought the price cannot multiply. was $10, not $25, and I know a silencer can be I support the legislation. slipped into one's pocket. As far as I know, con- trary to the remark of the Hon. David THE HON. TOM KNIGHT (South) [8.02 Wordsworth, a silencer does not have to be fitted p.m.]: I represent a large rural electorate which to a rifle by a gunsmith. A particular readily maj ors in grain production- available silencer can be fitted over the end of any The Hon. H-. W. Gayfer: I forgot that I do, too. rifle. The Hon. TOM KNIGHT: I support the pre- Even though there is a lot of apprehension vious speakers. As members are aware the dam- about the use of silencers, in time we will make age caused by starlings in the northern hemi- ourselves accustomed to their use just as we are sphere is great. I have just returned from a trip to accustomed to the use of .22 rifles. They are com- England and Europe and I was amazed at the monplace on every farm, as arc shotguns and prevalence of starlings there, with no apparent at- other such things used for the purposes for which tempt to control them. I have noticed, on they are kept. Unfortunately, firearms and numerous trips to the Eastern States, that star- silencers are readily available in other States, and lings have done much damage there also. We can- we have decided to put the brakes on here in re- not afford this. spect of the use of silencers; but in time I would The Hon. David Wordsworth mentioned that it not be surprised if silencers become an accepted was not necessary for Tasmanian farmers to use part of the equipment to deal with vermin. silencers. I do not believe Tasmania majors in If a starling appears on a farmer's property he grain production, and perhaps that is the reason. will have to get into his car and drive possibly 75 The threat of the starlings to the agricultural miles to the nearest police station to see whether industry is such that we must do all we can to pre- somebody is available to use a silencer. Probably vent further destruction of our grain. This the farmer will be told that the man authorised to measure is a sensible move by the Government to use a silencer is 100 miles away. The starling protect a strong industry which is vital to Aus- would still be sitting on the branch-I do not tralia's future. think! The simple fact that the sound of an explosion I believe the use of silencers will become an ac- will startle the birds means that a silencer is cepted practice so that we do not experience the necessary. With any other vermin, such as rab- problems we know starlings can invoke. The Bill bits, we know they will go down their burrows to states that the Minister may grant authority in emerge at a later stage. However, starlings have writing to an approved officer or employee of the been known to shift to a completely different Agriculture Protection Board to possess and carry area.- a silencer, and that the officer to whom the auth- I hope the strict controls laid down in this legis- ority is granted shall apply with such directions as lation will be adhered to. I support the Bill be- are from time to time given to him in connection cause it is a good move. with silencers by a member of the Police Force THE HON. J. M. BROWN (South-East) [8.05 acting on the instructions of the commissioner. p.m.J: I support the introduction of this amend- This means that an APE employee has to go ment to the Firearms Act. I can understand the into town and obtain a heap of instructions and concern expressed by the Commissioner for Police (11) 322 322[COUNCIL)

with the introduction of the use of silencers in this We are all aware of the urgency of this matter State. I understand the concern expressed about because the nesting time for starlings is from July the control of firearms generally and the responsi- through to December. They will mate three times bility placed on the members of the Police Force in the next six months, and produce eight eggs in as a result of this measure. each batch. Each starling is probably responsible It is only as a result of the activities of the Par- for producing 12 fledglings in a six-month period. liament that it has been possible to convince the We recognise the high cost involved in the con- Government that the introduction of silencers is a trol of starlings; but I do not think members re- necessary step. I wish to pay tribute to the new alise the thousands of dollars that have been spent member for the South-East Province-the Hon. on plant and equipment, in addition to wages, be- Mark Nevill-and the Minister for Transport for cause of the great distances travelled by those their assistance in bringing this matter to a satis- people who work for the Agriculture Protection factory conclusion. Board. The Government and the Parliament are to be The final eradication of these pests will be of congratulated for their support of such an import- great benefit to this State because no-one in this ant measure and the expeditious way in which the place could estimate the cost to this State if infes- legislation passed through the other place. I trust tation becomes a reality. the legislation will receive the same reception in The capital commitment required for this pro- this Chamber. gramme would be far offset by the advantages. By Last year, 30 officers of the Agriculture Protec- allowing the use of silencers but still respecting tion Board 12 of whom were Aborigines were em- the Commissioner for Police's concern for the ployed in the eradication of starlings. This oper- control of firearms, I believe the Government and ation was financed under a Commonwealth-State the Parliament have shown a sensible approach to agreement and proved to be most effective. In- this matter. deed, members have said that the methods used I support the Bill. by the Department of Agriculture and, in particu- THE HON. PETER DOWDING (North- lar, the Agriculture Protection Board, were suc- Minister for Mines) [8.10 p.m.): I thank the Op- cessful even though they were carried out under position for its support of this Bill and for the very trying conditions. comments members have made. A couple of mat- In the Mundrabilla area east of Esperance ters ought to be corrected. It is not the case that many trials and tribulations were experienced in in South Australia silencers may be acquired. Ac- efforts to control the starlings. Mr Terry Black, cording to my instructions, in South Australia the officer in charge of the Agriculture Protection that was not illegal and silencers were manufac- Board branch in Esperance, and his departmental tured until 1982. Since that time the South Aus- officers, deserve the highest commendation for tralian legislation has made it an offence to be in the manner in which they have approached this possession of a silencer. problem. Commonwealth legislation totally prohibits the Despite section 92 of the Constitution, we do import of silencers and it is a standard position not want starlings near us. As previous members throughout the Commonwealth and throughout have stated, they are a pest and cause damage to many countries of the world that the possession grain crops and horticulture. They are a nuisance and use of silencers is prohibited. to the natural fauna and cause problems in the The lHon. D. J. Wordsworth: I phoned a sports urban areas also. I do not think metropolitan store in South Australia and asked the price and members would be aware of the problems they whether they could fit one for me. can create in urban areas. An influx of starlings The Hon. PETER DOWDING: All I can say is can cause fouling and lice problems. that the honourable member should immediately I wish to commend the Esperance Shire Coun- contact the Commissioner of the South Australian cil for its sensible approach to this matter, as well Police Force so that the person who gave him that as the farming community and the Primary In- information can be dealt with according to the dustry Association. law of that State. This legislation will enable a silencer to be fit- I think the I-on. David Wordsworth is on his ted to the BRNO .22 rifle, under the strict super- own in terms of support for the extensive use of vision and control of the Commissioner of Police, silencers. It is the practice throughout the Com- when officers of the APB carry out the final monwealth to clamp down very heavily on their eradication. use. If the H-on. Mick Gayfer had been in this [Wednesday, 27 July 1983132 323 place in 1973 when the Firearms Act was passed the police will put strict conditions and regu- he would have known that at that time it was lations on the use of silencers and that may in fact made an offence to possess or use a silencer. prohibit the APB officers from carrying out their The Hon. H. W. Gayfer: I am well aware of job as effectively as they would wish. There could that. be a dispute. I raised the possibility earlier that silencers may need to be used in certain circum- The Hon. PETER DOWDING: Members who stances in townsites and the police probably would have suggested that there is a need for some flexi- say "No". The APB would say that unless its bility in the approach of the Commissioner of officers could use a silencer they could not do Police and the APB are expressing a view that is their job. Is it possible under this legislation or contrary to policy. The strictest attention needs to under the Firearms Act for the Minister to be applied to the use of silencers. This Bill is de- overrule the police on this matter if he thinks fit? signed to ensure that strict attention is given to their use, which will be only under the most lim- The Hon. PETER DOWDING: The authority ited circumstances. for the issue of the silencer is to be given by the Minister. The requirement of the directions is one I thank honourable members for their support for the commissioner. Clearly, the honourable of the Bill and I commend it to the House. member is presupposing a circumstance in which Question put and passed. a dispute arises which cannot be resolved at min- Bill read a second time. isterial level. The seriousness with which the Government and the police view the issue of In Committee silencers justifies their issue by a ministerial de- The Chairman of Committees (the Hon. D. J. cision. The circumstances under which they are Wordsworth) in the Chair; the Hon. Peter used is an administrative matter for the attention Dowding (Minister for Mines) in charge of the of the commissioner. Bill. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I would have Clause I put and passed. thought that the Minister could overrule the police if he wanted to because section 51 of the Clause 2: Section 17B inserted- Firearms Act says the responsibility for the The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: During the second administration of that Act is vested in the Minis- reading debate I asked the Minister whether he ter, who is required to have regard for the re- was able to give me some reasons for certain de- commendations of the commissioner. I believe the cisions that were made. One matter I raised with Minister could overrule the commissioner. I leave him was that it seemed odd that under the Fire- it at that. It should be noted in this Chamber that arms Act, the Commissioner of Police was able to it may be the case that the Minister has the make certain decisions in relation to firearms but overriding authority if he thinks it is essential. under this Bill the Minister has that authority. I The Hon. P. H. WELLS: I do not have a rural wonder whether the Minister knows the reason electorate but I am interested in the fact that this should be so. It would seem reasonable to me there is a crime wave in the metropolitan area, that the Commissioner of Police is competent to particularly in bank holdups. It amazes me where argument and the make that decision based on the the silencers come from because I understand it is application before him. The matter may be of illegal to manufacture them in Victoria, and they such importance that it must go to the Minister. are illegal in South Australia and Queensland. I The Hon. PETER DOWDING: The member do not have the New South Wales Act so I do not has hit upon the reason. It is regarded as of the know the situation there. I ask whether our police utmost importance that the use of silencers should stations have silencers, because proposed section not be considered a mere administrative for- 17B(3)(a) says that an officer must go to the mality. police to get the silencer. Can the Minister say May I correct an assertion made during the de- whether silencers are kept at each of the police bate in relation to proposed subsection 3(f). The stations throughout the State where they are inclusion of the word "nearest" was not a matter likely to be used? of an error being corrected in another place; it The Hon. PETER DOWDING: The answer is was the result of the acceptance of a suggestion "No". Silencers are kept by the police in one from a member of the Opposition. central area. They will be issued to the police The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I thank the Minis- stations where the APR officer will be working. It ter for that comment and raise another question. is anticipated there will be only two such police Obviously there will be a difference of opinion at stations. Until they are issued in accordance with times between the police and the APB. I believe the provisions of this Bill, should it become an 324 324[COUNCIL]

Act, they will be kept in a central repository by The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I really do not see the police. that it is specific in the legislation that the prop- The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Proposed subsec- osition the Minister is putting forward necessarily tion (3)(f) on page three of the Bill states- includes what we are seeking to do. It certainly Shall, when he- says the person using the silencer shall comply (ii) no longer requires the use of, a silencer with certain directions. The directions are not obtained by him under this subsection, specified-they are the same as regulations-and surrender that silencer to a member of we do not expect them necessarily to be specified the Police Force at the nearest police when we receive a Bill in the House. It must be station... written clearly in the legislation that a person who It does not seem to me to refer to a person who no no longer requires or is entitled to use a silencer longer is entitled to use a silencer. The Minister should surrender it immediately to a police will no doubt draw attention to subsection (3)(b) station. Subsection (4) says in part "or ceases to which says a person using a silencer shall comply be permitted by the board to possess, carry or use with such directions as given by the commissioner. a .22 calibre rifle under the Corporate Licence But it does not mention in the legislation that a referred to in subsection (7), his authority is ren- person who is no longer entitled to use a silencer dered void". That does not seem to me to mean he automatically has to return it to the nearest police must hand it in at once. I accept that it will station. I would have thought that should be in- almost certainly be written into the direction cluded in the legislation in paragraph (f)(ii) so given by the commissioner, but it is not specific in that the silencer is surrendered immediately. The the legislation, and it should be. subsection would then read that a person who no We are treating this as a serious matter. We longer requires or is entitled to the use of a are dealing with firearms and appliances for fire- silencer obtained by him under that subsection arms which could cause problems in the com- must surrender it immediately. It may be in- munity if they were stolen or lost track of. The cluded in the direction from the commissioner but use of the word "immediatley" to make sure it is it is not written into the legislation. In past years implicit that this equipment is handed in is essen- Mr Dowding has always been firm on the point tial so that those people not entitled to use the that whatever is intended should be written in the equipment should understand that immediate sur- legislation. I ask him to consider the inclusion of render is necessary. I would have thought the those words. Minister, in the spirit of the speech made last The Hon. PETER DOWDING: The words are night by Mr Dans when he said the Government not required. The moment at which the officer no would not hesitate to consider amendments put longer is entitled to a silencer by virtue either of forward in a genuine spirit, might accept our the termination or the breach of his authority or proposition. the terms of his authority, is the moment at which he must surrender it. To retain it would be an of- The Hon. D. K. Dans: Genuine and sensible. fence. Where he is given a permit to carry out The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Mr Dans may certain duties and those duties are at an end, he smile at a debate on this matter, but it is of the no longer requires the silencer. The word greatest importance and in that spirit he should "require" does not import a mental element: that consider the Opposition's proposal. is, it is not upon the officer to determine whether it might be a nice idea to hang on to it. It is a The Hon. PETER DOWDING: I do not treat word which imports the concept of the officer the honourable member's remarks lightly and I either no longer having any right to the use of a understand he is putting forward a personal silencer for the purpose of his duties, or to indi- suggestion as to how this drafting might be cate a moment when the officer's duties are at an improved. I make the point that if the person is in end as far as the use of that silencer is concerned. the bush shooting starlings-let us assume he has Two mechanisms exist in the Bill. One is the shot the last one-it might be said his need for creation of an offence for a person to have in his the silencer is at an end. His duty is then to go possession a silencer other than one held by him and surrender it at the nearest police station. If in pursuance of an authority. The second is a di- we import all sorts of other words we may get a rection that requires the return of the silencer by question on one hand of a more onerous obligation virtue of the end of the duties for which it was on an officer than might otherwise be intended; issued. In either event, the obligation is on the or, alternatively, a less onerous obligation. When officer to return the silencer and failure to do so the officer has the silencer in his possession he would lead him to the commission of an offence. must act in a particular way. The legislation re- [Wednesday, 27 July 19831 3252 quires him to comply with proposed section public. I do not feel it appropriate for me, as a 17B(3), and when the need for the silencer is at person representing the responsible Minister, to an end he must return it. That means he must re- indicate whether a register ought to be open to turn it when the need for it ends. One assumes it the public. Personally, I would not have thought is intended these APB officers will have some we would tell the publi where silencers were strict regulatory obligation imposed on them by being sent. the commissioner, and that is as it should be be- 1 would think this is a matter for the Minister. I cause we do not know where and what circum- will convey the suggestion to the Minister and the stances they will be working. commissioner, and they can determine whether it The procedure for obtaining a licence is strin- is appropriate for a register to be kept, and gent and appropriately difficult. Some practical whether it ought to be available to the public. considerations arise here. I do not see any need to The Hon. P. H. WELLS: I raised that question alter paragraph (f). If an officer is holding a because I notice that in other States registers are silencer contrary to his permit he is in breach of required. 1 wonder why they are required; but I the law and an offence is committed. There is no accept what the Minister has said. need to create a second offence. I gather the use of silencers is only effective Paragraph (f) imposes an obligation for the re- with high-velocity rifles. turn of the silencer at the moment the officer no The Hon. Neil Oliver: longer requires it. I do not believe that writing in No. the word "immediately" or making any other The Hon. P. H. WELLS: Myi understanding is alteration enhances the protection about which that the reason one can release silencers for use the member is concerned. I take on board what he with .22 rifles is that, if they are used with any says and no doubt the Commissioner of police will other gun, they are ineffective. Is that correct? have these matters in mind when he issues per- The Hon. R. J. L. Williams: No. mits. I do not see it as a function of the Legis- Clause put and passed. lature to write in words that will not add to the protection of society. Nor should we impose any Clause 3: Section 23 amended- more onerous obligation than is necessary on the The Hon. P. H. WELLS: This is the clause officer to whom a silencer will be issued on minis- which exempts a person authorised to use a terial authority. silencer from the penalties in the Act. Is there any deterrent within the Bill against any of the The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I cannot agree officers overstepping the mark in the misuse with the Minister when he says it is not necessary of firearms? If a person who has a legal right to to include the words I have suggested. They would have a silencer decides to have a drinking bout enhance and strengthen the legislation and make and misuses it, what is the situation? it clear and precise as far as the people using the equipment are concerned. The Hon. PETER DOWDING: Proposed sec- tion 23(7a) provides that the only people who are If the Minister is not prepared to place those exempted from the commission of an offence in words into the legislation, I simply ask him to relation to the possession or use of a silencer are make sure that the remarks expressed by me are members of the Police Force acting in the per- passed on to the Commissioner of Police so that formance of their duties-a dipsomaniac-on-the- the directions and conditions laid down are spelt grog police officer would *not come into that out clearly. category; and I am sure there is none, although The Hon. PETER DOWDING: In case those the honourable member presupposes there officers do not use Hansard as their bedside read- is-and persons who are the holders of authorities ing. I give the honourable member an undertaking who are acting in accordance with those that his comments will be conveyed to the Minis- authorities. That really gives the public of West- ter and to the commissioner. ern Australia all the protection that they could The Hon. G. E. Masters: Thank you. reasonably require. The Hon. P. H. WELLS: The Minister men- The Hon. P. H. WELLS: If an officer misuses tioned that the silencers were to be kept at one the weapon, all we can do is smack his hand and centre. Will there be a register of the silencers take away the silencer? issued? Where will the register be kept? Will it be The Hon. PETER DOWDING: He could be available for the public to examine? taken before a court of law and fined. He could be The Hon. PETER DOWDING: There is no put into gaol for six months. No doubt, if he were provision in the legislation to require such a regis- a police officer, he would be disciplined in ad- ter, or to require it to be open to members of the dition or in lieu. If he Were an APB officer, he 326 326[COUNCIL] would be sacked. The Act provides for an offence another place, has, however, outlined the Govern- of the possession or use of a silencer. Where a ment's legislative proposals. We now have before silencer is in the possession of, or being used by, us a statement of the likely legislation which the someone other than by a police officer in the Government proposes to introduce. course of his duties, or an APB officer authorised I wish to make one or two comments fairly by a permit, an offence is committed. The mo- briefly on one or two items in the address we ment he steps outside the terms of his permit or heard last night. Necessarily, because of the the terms of his duties as a police officer, he com- shortage of time in which to comment on them, I mits an offence for which is prescribed a period of will be fairly brief, and at a later stage I will have imprisonment. more to say upon some of the individual Bills Clause put and passed. when they come before the House. Title put and passed. The word "mandate" has been used in a very loose sense. I have heard the word used frequently Report in this House over the years, and I have inevitably Bill reported, without amendment, and the re- found that it :Aas been used loosely. If members port adopted. examine the meaning of the word, they will find that it connotes an instruction. It means that an Third Reading instruction has been received by someone. The word "mandatory" means that an instruction has Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. been given, and there is a requirement to account Peter (Minister Dowding for Mines), and passed. to some particular person or body. This, I believe, is the loose way in which it has come to be used in ADDRESS-IN-REPLY: SECOND DAY political circles, where it has come to be equated Motion with some kind of political desire. Debate resumed from 22 March. The Hon. Tom Stephens: It comes from the Latin mandarc, to give a go. It means a fair go. THE HON. 1. G. MEDCALF (Metropolitan- Leader of the Opposition) [8.39 p.m.]: At the out- The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: If one examines set, I congratulate the new members of the the Latin derivation, one finds that it connotes House-those members who were elected for the "instruction". I have taken the trouble, in the first time at the last State election-upon taking short time available to me, to examine the defi- their seats in the House. I refer to the H-ons. W. nition of "mandate" in Webster's Dictionary. That is a very good dictionary, and it gives a G. Atkinson, C. J. Bell, G. J. Edwards, Ei. K.i Hallahan, M. W. Nevill, S. M. Piantadosi, and series of different meanings, according to the con- W. N. Stretch. I am sure they will find their text in which a word is used. if it is used in law, period of office in this House very interesting, and politics, literature, or in some other sense, the dic- they will be able to do much to further the tionary usually gives the special adaptation of the interests of their electorates and of the State. meaning of the Word. Webster shows the political- science meaning of the word as "the instruction I also congratulate the Leader of the Govern- ment (the Hon. Des Dans) on his elevation to that given by a constituency to the elected legislative position; and I congratulate the Ministers, the body or one of its members, requiring a certain I-on. Mr Berinson and the Hon. Mr Dowding, course of action to be followed". upon their appointments. Indeed, I congratulate There is no equivocation about that. It means, all the newly elected members, and those who .,an instruction given by a constituency". It gives, were members previously and who have been re- as a synonym for "mandate", the word elected to the House. I include in those congratu- "injunction". The description of "injunction" is lations the Hon. Mr Wordsworth, who has been "authoritative instructions, mandates, issued, appointed the Chairman of Committees. which the member is bound blindly and implicity We had an unusual start to the Parliament to follow". The author of those words is none when we had an early sitting a few months ago to other than a gentleman by the name of Burke. As deal with one matter only-the prices control my dictionary is dated 1929, that must refer to legislation. That was preceded by the Governor's some Burke other than the one some members Speech, which told us very little due to the haste may have in mind. with which the sitting was brought on immedi- It is quite clear that Governments sometimes ately after the genera: election. The Minister's may have a mandate. Sometimes there are single statement which we heard last night, and which issues on which a Government is elected, and I was similar to that delivered by the Premier in will mention one of them. [Wednesday, 27 July 19831 3272

One instance was when the Menzies Govern- referring to some of the reports that go right back ment was elected in 1949 following the bank to the days of the Tonkin Government, on which nationalisation issue. That Government was no action has been taken over all these years, ejected on a mandate against the nationalisation there is probably good reason for no action having of banking in Australia. That was a single issue been taken. I sincerely hope that the Government election, and there have been others. But in most does not bring up some of the very old Law cases a Government is elected to power from a Reform Commission reports which go back 12 number of people who are elected and who make years or more, because obviously the demand for up the majority from the individual electorates all action in those cases was not very high. over the State or country. These series of individ- I point out that quite a large number of Law ual electorates in which the electors vote for a Reform Commission reports-it was formerly multifarious number of reasons in fact enable the called the Law Reform Committee-which it was a majority. Government to achieve said had not been implemented have in fact been No-one disputes that the Burke Government effectively dealt with in one way or another. A achieved a considerable majority, but what I am number of these reports had to be referred to disputing is that all those electors who voted for Other departments for action because they came the Burke Government voted for that Government under the portfolios of other Ministers, and I refer on a mandate to carry out every item .ni its particularly to matters dealing with main roads platform. I say quite unreservedly that there is no and local government. Some of these reports have question but that the ALP was given a mandate been superseded by legislative changes of other to form a Government. But that is where the kinds or have been referred to a standing com- mandate rests. mittee or to a Federal body. Some of the reports The Hon. Robert Hetherington: I disagree. called for no action at all. The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: The Government Honourable members will have noted the tend- will proceed to carry out its platform, and I do not ency, in all walks of life, for matters to be doubt that the Burke Government has a platform. referred to a commission or a committee if they But it cannot claim to have a mandate for every belong to the "too hard" basket, and that of item that appears in that platform, and that is course has happened in law reform just as in other where the matter begins and ends. spheres of life. Quite a lot of the matters referred I am pleased to note that the present Govern- to the Law Reform Commission over the years ment has decided to pursue a number of matters were matters which a particular Government in which the previous Government was pursuing. years gone by found too hard to deal with, and for that reason they were whisked off to the com- The Hon. Robert Hetherington interjected. mittee, the present commission. Some of those The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: As interjections matters really do not deserve to be brought up. are highly disorderly I might soon take exception A comment which has not been made but to the honourable member's interjecting continu- which should have been made is the extent to ally during my speech. which Law Reform Commission reports have The Hon. Robert Hetherington: Goody, goody. been implemented in the legislation of this State The PRESIDENT: Order! during the last decade. This has happened far The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: The previous more so than at any other time or in any other Government put forward a number of matters of State in a comparable period. Western Australia law reform which the present Government has is now ahead or has been the pacesetter in so adopted, and I am pleased this is so. I hope that many areas of law reform. when those matters do come forward they are in The previous Government in fact strengthened much the same form as they were when approved the Law Reform Commission by appointing two by the previous Government. I will be looking at full-time commissioners as well as the part-time them with considerable interest and I believe they commissioners. -Naturally this put a lot more could be well received. A number of other matters pressure on the administration, and for this reason were mentioned which were not the concern of the the staff of the Crown Law Department was in- previous Government, and no doubt we will scru- creased. tinise those very carefully. I should make one or two further observations The ministerial statement says that the Govern- about the Law Reform Commission, Wvihout ment will attend to the backlog of Law Reform reflecting at all on its members. The opinions of Commission reports on which no decision or ac- experts should always be taken, but those opinions tion has been taken. If the Government is cannot always be acted upon, certainly not iA,- 328 328[COUNCIL]I

mediately. This applies particularly in the area of Conference when vast sums of money were added law reform, where one has to consider the need to the national deficit because the Premiers in- ror proposals to gain public acceptance. A sisted that they must have more money. 1 can well Government cannot thrust law reform down understand why they asked for more money: people's throats. Their Governments' expenses were rising because One should encourage law reformers, but one of inflation and other causes. should bear in mind that their proposals must be But what about reining-in these authorities and able to be translated into practical reality in a departments? What efforts have been made to way that will enable our laws to be workable;, if tighten the belts of Government authorities? The they are not, the law will be brought into dis- demand of authorities will be insatiable if the repute. We should bear in mind the comments or Government allows them to make their demands Dr Goodhart, former Professor of Jurisprudence without reining them in. The severest strictures in the University of Oxford, who said- have to be applied by someone outside the Law reform, if it is to prove successful, Government circle. must be a practical exercise. It depends on The experience of private industry, which can- three things: (a) the law reformer must know not increase its charges because its customers can- what are the practical defects of the present not pay more or will Find a cheaper substitute, in- law; (b) he must ascertain what practical dicates that Governments must find ways of steps can be taken to overcome these defects; cutting down expenses and costs. There is no sub- and (c) he must attempt to foretell what will stitute for Government monopolies of water, gas be the results those steps. If he keeps these or and electricity; there is no competition with the three elements in mind he is not likely to ex- Government departments which provide these ser- ceed the limits that ought to circumscribe his vices. The public must deal with them. Therefore, attempts. there is a responsiblity on these departments and I mean no disrespect to the Law Reform Com- authorities to be particularly zealous in keeping mission when I say that sometimes its advice is their expenses to a minimum. Naturally they will not taken. I am sure its members will understand not do this unless they have someone looking over this. their shoulder. It is absolutely essential that we Naturally those who work in this field are have some outside group or body to keep an eye anxious to see the fulfilment of their work by way on these authorities. or the introduction of legislation, but this cannot In a monopoly, be it a Government or private always take place. Further, "instant law reform" enterprise monopoly, there is always a danger of should generally be discouraged except where increased charges, and Governments like private some urgent matter arises, perhaps a matter of enterprise cannot go on increasing charges to the technical nature which has to be taken care of im- There is a need for scrutiny of the most mediately. Law reform should be approached with public. a consult- a certain degree of care and caution before a de- minute kind. There is a need to appoint cision is made as to what reform is appropriate ant group independent of Government to inquire into and scrutinise the accountability of Govern- and how it would be best achieved. We can never assume that the expert advice we get will necess- ments. There are plenty of precedents for auditing arily be acceptable to the Parliament and to the the efficiency of Government departments. public, both of whose views must be accommo- Money is well spent if private consultants have dated if law reform is to retain the credibility it annual contracts to provide continuing indepen- should rightly have. dent protection to the taxpaying public. I will comment now on budgetary responsi- There is one area in which there has been job bility. There is very little in the ministerial state- creation by the Government; that is, in the ap- ment about Budget responsibility; some general- pointment of Government advisers. This has been ised comments are made. But it should be noted a growth industry under the present Government. that all Government charges have gone up, be We have seen a recent influx of staff to advise they for water, gas, or electricity, by as much as Government Ministers on various aspects of their 10, 12, or 15 per cent during a period when per- portfolios. It cannot be doubted that advice from sonal incomes have either fallen or are static dur- people who have expertise in a given area is ing the wages freeze. This raises the very serious always welcome, but a cautionary note must be question of the accountability of Government de- sounded about the appointment to these positions partments. Private enterprise was appalled, to say of people who have a vested and long-standing the least, at the spectacle of the last Premiers' interest in areas covered by certain portfolios. [Wednesday, 27 July 1983139 329

It is interesting to note chat the Premier finds it pendent of Government. non-political, non-parti- necessary to have his own adviser on industrial re- san, who have a permanency of employment and lations in addition to the adviser appointed to as- no axe to grind, and who do not have to curry sist the Minister for Industrial Relations. Indeed, favour with the Minister. They give their advice there are so many advisers that I hesitate to men- and if the Minister does not take it, it is no skin tion them all, because it would take too long. I am off their noses; it does not really concern them. not convinced that I have an up to date list of They have done their jobs and they know they will them. My information is probably a bit stale. It is not lose their positions because of it. an extract from the Daily News of 22 April, so it The Government is foolish to spurn the Public is three months old. I am quite prepared to admit Service. The Government has embarked on a that some of these items need to be updated. I am dangerous, costly and duplicative exercise which not saying the salaries have been updated; I hope will have repercussions. The Government should they have not. This extract refers to an expendi- heed the warning that it has received today from ture of over $500 000 for 17 advisers. There may the Public Service. well be more of them. I want to comment on the external affairs It is astonishing to see the number of advisers power under the Commonwealth Constitution. appointed from union circles. They are all men- Some members may perhaps be inclined to ask tioned here and they have had a fair bit of pub- what this has to do with the State Parliament or licity, It is extraordinry to realise that many of the State Government, and I will explain it for the these people come from unions which themselves benefit of any member who does not know. The have a great deal of authority within the ALP. power of the people of Australia to change the H-ow does one decide who is running this Govern- Constitution has been bypassed by the High ment? If the Government receives advice from ad- Court's decision in the Tasmanian dam case. The visers who in fact have some way of having some referendum method of changing the Constitution influence on Government apart from their pos- still exists, of course, but there is no need for the itions, how does the Government reject that ad- Commonwealth to use it if it happens to sign an vice? international treaty on a particular topic which This is a difficult matter to Overcome. We in could be almost any subject one cares to mention. Literally dozens of these treaties are in existence, this House are all accustomed to rejecting advice. in embryonic form, or perhaps coming up, and all It is easy enough to reject advice from people who the executive Government of the Common- are permanent heads of departments or perma- wealth-that is, the Executive Council or the nent senior officers in the Public Service because Cabinet as the Executive Council-has to do is to they are there to serve the Government. They are sign and ratify a treaty-without the intervention non-political, non-partisan and permanent; their of the Federal Parliament and without consul- permanency is guaranteed by various industrial tation with the States. This may have a far- conditions which ensure that they will give inde- reaching effect upon State law. If the Common- pendent advice and that they will not be in peril wealth subsequently legislates, the legislation will of losing their positions. The Public Service gener- override State law. ally is a politically independent body. The Tasmanian dam case is significant, far be- The Hon. H. W. Gayfer: You have to set up a yond the environmental or heritage issues in re- board of advisers. lation to the particular problem in Tasmania-the The Hon. G. E. Masters: I think they are build- Gordon-below- Franklin dam. It goes far beyond ing an office block for them. that because the point of principle which was de- The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: Public servants cided in the case, as was made clear by the are employed to assist their Ministers, of what- judgment of the members of the High Court, ever political persuasion, in the administration of really did not refer to the dam at all. their portfolios. These are the people whose They were not concerned whether a dam or not salaries the Government has decided to reduce. was built there; they were concerned with the This action must surely be seen as an attack on point of principle of the use of the external affairs the professionalism of the Public Service. I do not power of the Commonwealth in connection with know what happens if a Minister rejects the ad- an international treaty. The decision made in that vice that his adviser gives in the case of the ad- case brought about the most far-reaching change viser being one of his union representatives. What during the 83 years of federation. When the Aus- are the repercussions? Who are the masters and tralian colonies agreed to federate with a written who are the servants? I stress again the advantage Constitution in 1901, it was said, with some wis- of having Public Service advisers who are inde- dom, that this would mean the triumph of legal- 330 330[COUNCIL]

ism, and that has been borne out by events. As a meaningless if the Federal Government result of successive constitutional interpretations could, by entering into treaties with foreign by the High Court, which is the sole arbiter of the Governments on matters of domestic con- Constitution, the meaning of the words used in cern, enlarge the legislative powers of the the Constitution has been considerably Parliament so that they embraced literally all broadened. While the founding fathers of the fields of activity. This result could follow Constitution, in order to prevent dramatic even though all the treaties were entered into changes, provided for a fairly restrictive method in good faith, that is, not solely as a device of alteration by a referendum of the people under for the purpose of attracting legislative section 128, the High Court has succeeded in power. bypassing this in successive judgments. The latest Mr Justice Mason said- of these judgments is the Tasmanian dam case. In There are so many examples of the com- actual fact, there are very few cases on the direct mon pursuit of humanitarian, cultural and extent of the power to legislate under the external idealistic objectives that we cannot treat sub- affairs power. jects of this kind as lacking the requisite The three principal cases are: Rex v. Burgess, a international character to support a treaty or 1936 case dealing with an international airline convention which will attract the exercise of treaty: the Koowarta case, which was decided last the power. Indeed the lesson to be learned year, dealing with the racial discrimination treaty; from this experience is that there are vir- and the Tasmanian dam case. The first case dealt tually no limits to the topics which may here- with an airline treaty and was clearly a matter of after become the subject of international co- international concern. In the Koowarta case, operation and international treaties or con- which was decided last year by four judges to ventions. In this respect there is therefore a three, the fourth majority judge (Mr Justice vast difference between the position in 1900 Stephen) held that there must be matters of when the Constitution was drawn up and the international concern for a particular treaty to position to-day. come within the power. In the Tasmanian dam Mr Justice Mason further said- case decided a few weeks ago, the four majority judges held that all treaties are of an international No doubt this problem might have been concern. more readily answered in 1900 by reference to the World of international affairs as it Indeed, two of the judges expressed the view stood at that time, a world devoid of that there may be other external affairs which are international and regional institutions and not necessarily involved with international agencies as we know them to-day in which treaties. One of Australia's leading constitutional international discussion, negotiation, co-oper- academics, Dr George Winterton, said in The ation and agreement took place on a very Australian on 4 July 1983- limited scale in relation to limited subjects. It (the High Court) is probably the most In opting centralist high court since federation. for a broad interpretation rather than a narrow interpretation the majority The effect of the Tasmanian dam decision may judges have in effect indicated that the Com- perhaps best be summed up by quoting from some monwealth Parliament can now legislate on of the judgments. The Chief Justice (Sir Harry any topic which is the subject of an Gibbs) said in his judgment- international agreement notwithstanding that The external affairs power differs from the it may be of traditional or peculiar domestic other powers conferred by section 51 in its concern. capacity for almost unlimited expansion. Mr Justice Wilson had this to say- Later he said- I remain convinced with all respect to There is almost no aspect of life which those who think differently that an expansive under modern conditions may not be the sub- reading of section $1 (29) so as to bring the ject of an international agreement, and there- implementation of any treaty within Com- fore the possible subject of Commonwealth monwealth legislative power poses a serious legislative power. Whether Australia enters threat to the basic federal policy of the Con- into any particular international agreement is stitution. Such an interpretation if adopted entirely a matter for decision by the Execu- would result in the Commonwealth Parlia- tive. The division of powers between the ment acquiring power over practically the Commonwealth and the States which the whole range of domestic concerns within Constitution effects could be rendered quite Australia. [Wednesday, 27 July 1983] 3313

He later said- and tilted in favour of the Commonwealth Parlia- This is not speculation. Many treaties and ment. Some practical suggestions ought to be con- conventions of the United Nations Economic templated and consideration given to them by the Social and Cultural Organisation, the Government and, indeed, by all thinking citizens International Labour Organisation and the in Australia in order to endeavour to restore or United Nations itself are already in exist- rectify the position in so far as it may be possible ece. It is not a satisfactory answer to ob- to do so. serve that State laws will be ousted only if I have given some careful consideration to this the Commonwealth chooses to legislate. Ulti- question and, indeed, I have noted a number of mately absolute political power must come to suggestions which have been made by various reside with the paramount authority. The natural incentive of Governments in the pur- people. I believe it does behove us to give con- suit of their policies to resort to the legislat- sideration to what can now be done. The first step ive powers available to them would afford that I suggest should be contemplated is that little assurance to the States of a stable there must be an arrangement for consultation framework in which to pursue the residual with the States prior to and during the negotiation responsibilities and opportunities left to of international treaties which may affect them. traditional areas of State law. If the treaties may In Koowarta, every member Of the Court ac- affect traditional areas of State domestic law, I knowledged that the content of the legislative believe the States are entitled to be consulted be- powers conferred on the Commonwealth is to fore any negotiations commence and certainly be determined having regard to the impli- during the negotiations so that they are aware of cations of federalism. It seems to me that if a the effects and so that they can discuss with the whole range of legislative and executive auth- Commonwealth the possible result in terms of the ority which formerly resided in the States is citizens of the State and the effect upon them of capable of being subsumed under paramount the change of the law. Commonwealth laws then the very consti- Secondly, treaties should be approved by the tutional structure of the States is under- Commonwealth Parliament and by a majority of mined. State Governments before being signed or rati- Mr Justice Wilson said- fied. This might best be done by the setting up of Of what significance is the continued for- a treaties council comprising Ministers from the mal existence of the States if a great many of Commonwealth and State Governments who their traditional functions are liable to be- would have the function of examining treaties come the responsibility of the Common- which the Commonwealth is contemplating wealth? signing and subsequently ratifying. Those are fairly devastating words from three Fourthly, any legislation in which the Com- eminent judges of the High Court. Of course, monwealth proposes to use the external affairs many Other things were said in the 300-odd pages power and which will affect traditional areas of of judgments which the High Court pronounced, State law should be subject to approval by State but I believe that those passages do signify in a Governments. most indelible manner the passing of State power to the Commonwealth as a result of this decision. Finally, consultation procedures for the ap- Another result of the decision, in practical pointment of High Court judges should be terms, is that there is no need for the Common- strengthened so that proposed appointees should wealth Government to gauge popular opinion on be approved by a majority of State Governments any topic; by entering into an international treaty as well as by the Commonwealth Government. or convention Parliament can legislate on the The High Court is the ultimate arbiter of disputes same subject even though the State legislation has between the Commonwealth and State Govern- traditionally been well understood and accepted ments and it will also decide constitutional issues for generations. Also, in its practical effects, it is where the Commonwealth law may encroach on a reversal of the Constitution because it bypasses State law. It is essential that State Governments the method of amending the Constitution by have a greater say in the appointment of High referendum;, that is now unnecessary as there is an Court judges. For one reason or other this was left alternative way to achieve the same purpose. out of our Constitution. I make no secret of the The Federal balance as understood in Australia difficulties involved in carrying out some of these in the last 83 years has been seriously distorted measures. 332 332COUNCIL)

A referendum will be required to effectively We have been subjected to a fair degree of abuse institute changes. I cannbt see how it can from one quarter and another and it has been otherwise be done in a satisfactory manner. quite astonishing to me to note the speculation in The Western Australian Government did not the Press as to how obstructive the Opposition is intervene to oppose the Commonwealth in the likely to be when there has been no indication of dams case. The reason for non-intervention has any kind from members of the Legislative Council not been made clear publicly but the serious re- as to what attitude they might have. suits of the case should indicate that it is time ac- No indication or intention has been given by tion was taken to rectify this situation. members of the Legislative Council in regard to The interrelationship of our institutions has obstructing legislation. Indeed, members do not been determined by history and there has been a see their role either now, or in the past, as having balance between the Commonwealth and the been an obstructive one. Legislation which comes States. The States gave up to the Commonwealth before this Council is scrutinised very carefully certain powers and retained the residue. The fed- and we give as much attention to detail as we are eral balance or compact was arrived at after a able to give. Generally speaking, I believe that great deal of argument and debate and was members of the Council have, in the past, given brought about by geographical and social needs full attention to scrutinising legislation that comes and forces. However, it has been dramatically dis- before the House. turbed and tilted in favour of the Commonwealth Occasionally legislation is passed without faults Government. We do not know what this disturb- being detected. We have become aware of this in ance will bring in its train, but when historical recent times when, for some reason or other, we and geographical needs and forces are disturbed have had to deal with legislation hastily. Members one has to expect that there will be repercussions of the Opposition will certainly make such com- of various kinds. We do not know yet, what these repercussions will be. ments as they believe should be made in regard to legislation which is put forward. They will pro- I do not know whether the State Government is pose amendments, if thought necessary, according happy about the results that have now come to their view of the effect of the legislation on the about; but it did not oppose them. I am not sure people of the State. This has always been the whether the State Government is happy to submit right of members of a second Chamber and Oppo- itself to the dictates of the Government of the day sition members will not be intimidated by threats in Canberra. Of the 125 members of the House of of any kind. Their duty is to the people of this Representatives in Canberra who will have the State and they will continue to carry out this duty task of passing legislation pursuant to the without fear or favour. The international treaties which may now affect State Opposition will con- law, three out of every five members come from tinue to take care over legislation. Victoria or New South Wales. Almost four out of If one examines the contribution made by indi- every five members come from the Eastern States, vidual members in this Council over many years it if one includes Queensland. Therefore, will be found by those who are sufficiently con- Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria have cerned to read Hansard-not many of our critics approximately four out of every five members in do this- that careful and effective work has been the House of Representatives. Who can doubt the carried out Over the years by members of the power of Sydney and Melbourne voters, and to Legislative Cduneil in relation to various Bills. what extent are we prepared to permit this situ- Some of it is very detailed and, perhaps, some is ation to continue without taking any action? not very rewarding, but nonetheless members Is the State Government prepared to stand up have taken their duty seriously and have been re- for the rights of local people to have a say in their corded as doing something of considerable im- laws or is it content to allow the situation to re- portance for the State. main so that decisions, to a large extent, will be As far as the Government's legislation is con- made on our behalf by the majority in the Eastern cerned, if it is of good quality and fair to all, it is States? Will the State Government support a not likely to be rejected in this House. If, how- referendum with some proper action in an endeav- ever, it is merely designed for political or partisan our to correct the distortion which has taken purposes, this will become obvious during the de- place? I will be interested to hear the views of the bates. Subjecting legislation to critical examin- Government in due course. ation in the public interest is, I believe, the proper I now wish to refer briefly to how the members function of a second Chamber in a democracy. of the Opposition see their role in this Parliament. That is how Opposition members see their role. [Wednesday, 27 July 1983]13 333

The Hon. Fred McKenzie: That is the only Much of my work experience has been involved time you do it. You knocked back 21 Bills. with people-centred services. 1 refer to past occu- The Hon. 1. G. MEOCALE: I have no reason pations-as a youth organiser over 20 years ago, to believe that we will not be acting with reason to the position as a woman constable with the and propriety as we have always done. Western Australian Police Force, and more re- I support the montion. cently to positions as a qualified social worker. THE HON. KAY HALLAHAN (South-East The knowledge I bring to this House will relate to Metropolitan) [9.25 p.m.]: I wish to support the the effect of legislation on electors as they live out motion. their lives, and the means by which human experi- ence is enhanced rather than diminished or sup- I congratulate you, Mr President, on your elec- pesd. tion to the position of President of this Legislative Council. I have seen at first hand the devastating effects of unemployment I am indeed pleased to be a member of the on individuals and families. The sudden drop in income, the inability to pay mort- Burke Labor Government and I pay a particular gage and hire-purchase commitments and the tribute to the Parliamentary Leader of the Aus- feelings of worthlessness and hopelessness are tralian Labor Party in this State who leads a ma- realities for many. I have worked with families jority in another place. where alcohol dependence has been a factor in vi- I have been awaiting this Opportunity in order olent and chaotic relationships. The desperation to pay a special tribute to all the electors in of people condemned to an income well below the South-East Metropolitan Province who voted for poverty line has to be felt to be understood. the Australian Labor Party in overwhelming These are community issues which confront numbers. The swing to Labor in my electorate, in many of our citizens and they are issues con- quite remarkable. I excess of 10.5 per cent, was fronting the electors and their families in South- believe the vote reflected a demand in the com- East Metropolitan Province. munity for open, honest and compassionate government. The question of unemployment bites painfully into electors and their dependants. Nowhere is I look forward to representing electors in an ef- there public debate which is questioning the fective and energetic way, regardless of their pol- means by which the benefits of our society are to itical preference. be distributed, when work as we have known it, is To those people who worked for the election of no longer the means by which we can satisfac- the Burke Labor Government I pay a special torily distribute the collective wealth. tribute. Residents in South-East Metropolitan It is my belief that as a nation one of our most Province supported the campaign in a magnificent urgent tasks will be to give our attention to the and generous way. My own family and friends problems associated with the application of tech- were wonderfully supportive, and also very hard nological advances and the resultant job loss. working. I trust that the success we together have How can our people secure an adequate income achieved is some reward for all the effort, and the when paid work is not available? The present for- sacrifice of other interests. mula, to reduce large sections of our community As the sitting member I see my role quite to chronic poverty for the rest of their lives is to clearly to represent the whole electorate on every me quite unacceptable. possible occasion. This will include a co-operative The matter of accommodating the variety of relationship with local government authorities in housing needs is a vexed question in some areas of the province. My colleague, the Hon. Bob the province. In times of economic recession and Hetherington, and I will work closely together to subsequent financial insecurity it is under- provide electors and community groups with an standable that those who have been able to gain effective parliamentary voice. an improved standard of living, should want to The basis of my representations will be a strong hold on fast to what they have achieved. There is belief in justice and equality of opportunity for all the dilemma that for others to obtain adequate people regardless of their social, economic, re- housing, building of a more modest level must ligious, or cultural heritage. Where disadvantage proceed. The threat to property values on the one or cultural expectations have been a hand and the urgency of need for adequate shelter discouragment to the seeking of opportunity on an on the other have to be seen in the broadest poss- equal basis, then I am in favour of policies which ible context. Large numbers of Western Aus- seek to encourage those people's participation; tralians will be denied one of their most basic that is, policies for affirmative action. needs if the Government does not proceed with its 334 334[COUNCIL] promised building programme. This means that The localities within South-East Metropolitan the State Housing Commission building pro- Province will be linked in an improved road gramme must proceed. It is essential that it pro- system with the South Street to Ranford Road ceed with small developments and that the mis- connection. Negotiations with the Federal takes of the past are not repeated. Government are under way for funding. When On these two matters of adequate income and funds are secured, planning will commence so adequate housing, the community as a whole will that work can begin as soon as possible on this stuffer if sections of our population find themselves proj ect. Access to the city centre and beyond, for left out of the distribution of resources. The residents in Armadale, Kelmscott, Gosnells, and lifestyle we all enjoy, and many of us take for Canning Vale will be greatly improved and press- granted, will be less secure in these circumstances. ure on Albany Highway will be lessened to some as people resort to less acceptable methods of en- degree. suring their own and their children's well being. Local residents' groups can achieve a great deal The seat I represent is comprised of many lo- in improving their immediate environment. They can also be very calities with a clearly developed sense of com- effective in ensuring that elected munity. The south-east corridor is a region in the representatives, local, State, and Federal, are sen- sitive to the needs of their metropolitan area which is undergoing rapid immediate community. I refer in particular to the energetic people who change. The establishment of a subregional centre live around a neglected plot at Armadale will see a new focus. The Govern- of land bounded by Tamarind Crescent and Willowmecad Way in ment has given an undertaking to decentralise de- Kelmscott. This unsightly block which no-one can partments to the subregional centre, where this is use, is about to be transformed viable. The necessity to travel towards the city for into a playground and park for children and their families. It has services will be replaced by readily accessible ser- given me a great deal of pleasure to see the en- vices in Armadale. The new law courts building thusiasm with which residents have tackled the opened on Friday, 27 May 1983 is an example of Job, and their co-operative spirit in working Government activity to be locally based.* There together. will be immediate benefits in the number of jobs available to local people. Children will have an alternative to riding their bikes on the road and families will have a rec- The area has not in the past enjoyed services reational facility nearby, which they have them- which are taken for granted in other provinces. selves created. This year has seen the establishment of a family day care scheme under the auspices of the There is one issue on which spirited debate is Roberta Jul] Child Care Association. It has given likely in the year ahead. I refer to the proposal by the council of the City of Canning to re-introduce me a great deal of satisfaction to be associated with the establishment of this scheme. Now 160 the Spencer-Chapman Roads bridge into its planning scheme. Many children per month have access to good quality people have already ex- pressed concern about the river and foreshore, child care. anid the effect on the residential areas of The Armadale-Gosnells Women's Refuge is a Langford, Thorolie, and Gosnells. Public debate much needed amenity in the two local government at the local level is one of the most effective ways areas. All the preliminary work has been done of ensuring that decision-making commences at and we now await the outcome of the forthcoming the level where it affects people most, and I there- Budget to see whether the project will receive in- fore encourage residents likely to be affected to itial funding this year. There is, I believe, a make their point of view known. Lack of foresight greater role for local government in the provision and planning in years past has led to the enor- of community services, in addition to its long es- mous pressure now on Albany Highway at Can- tablished practice of providing sporting facilities. nington, and the need to relieve that traffic prob- In another locality of the province, Government lem is urgent. members, State and Federal, are exploring every Mr President, for almost three years I was a avenue available to ensure that the building of an member of the Western Australian Police Force. urgently needed senior citizens' centre proceeds in When I decided to marry in 1972, it was not poss- Willetton. The plans arc comprehensive and will ible to remain in the Police Force as women were serve the area well for many years. However, the required to resign on marriage. This serves to il- capital required is a substantial amount and a mix lustrate the discrimination which women have of funds from a variety of grants may be necess- faced and continue to face, particularly in the ary for the project to proceed. field of employment. [Wednesday, 27 July 1983]13 335

Given my past occupation it follows that I have situations, where members of a family have to a personal interest in police officers occupying a leave the family home in order to avoid physical position of Rood standing in the community. and/or psychological abuse. It is a disturbing fact In a society such as ours, it is clear that the ef- that many victims of domestic assault have had ficiency of law enforcement agencies will be re- childhood experience of domestic violence. It has lated to the level of public co-operation they re- been found also that many perpetrators of viol- ceive. The work is demanding and officers often ence have grown up in families where violence feel that their position is not fully appreciated by was a means by which frustrations were ex- the community at large. pressed, or where it was frequently employed in It seems to me that there are two particular conflict resolution. arenas in which changes will bring about better Women's refuges have provided shelter for community-police relations. women and children who find their family situ- The First is the way in which complaints against ation too dangerous or damaging. It is a fact that police, in the exercise of their duty, are handled. refuge workers have provided this service without At present complaints are handled internally by award coverage. Knowledge of the situation many senior officers and no doubt their attention to the women would race if a refuge closed its doors has complainant's concern is thorough. However, this kept dedicated workers at their job with is not the perception of the community at large inadequate funding and appallingly low wages. and change to a more open and accountable The Federal Government's announcement early system is desirable. this month of a women's emergency services pro- The Government has announced its intention to gramme is recognition of inadequate Government establish a procedure by which such complaints support for the refuge programme. During 1983- will be investigated by an independent authority. I 84, 54 million will be provided to phase in award feel confident that this measure will be welcomed wages for refuge workers and to allow urgently by the community, and will significantly benefit needed new services and the expansion of existing the public perception of the Western Australian services. Western Australian refuges along with Police Force. Queensland refuges have been the recipients of The second area of relevance to the police is the lowest level of State Government funding in their involvement in situations which are more ap- Australia. The Labor Government's further in- propriately referred to other agencies for follow- itiative in this area is therefore very significant. up work, once the offender has been dealt with or On 20 June this year a long awaited service in the volatility of the situation reduced. I refer par- Perth was officially opened. As a community we ticularly to domestic violence which is an area de- now have 24-hour, seven-day per week service manding on police time, and of a recurrent provided by the Crisis Care Unit under the De- nature. partment for Community Welfare. It is staffed by In the area of domestic violence I would like to professional field workers, who are backed up by pay a particular tribute to the work of the IHon. a band of very able volunteers. While this unit is [yln Elliott, a member of this House. Her speech available to meet any emergency, its field workers to this House on 23 September 1981, was particu- are specifically qualified to intervene in situations larly well researched and presented members with of domestic violence. accurate information on the difficulties in this area and of the terrible experiences faced by We have benefited by the experience gained in many women and children. the South Australian Crisis Care Unit. In that State co-operation between police and crisis care The changes she cited as being required to workers has been very effective. overcome some obvious difficulties, are in fact now being achieved. For example, an amendment When South Australian police are called in, to the Justices Act was proclaimed and came into they restore order on arrival and then give those effect on 20 May this year. There is a body of op- Present the option of help from the Crisis Care inion that believes that changes to the Family Unit. The unit is then contacted by phone or radio Law Act would have been a more appropriate and a mobile worker attends and assists in the res- means of dealing with the problems associated olution of the problem or. makes a referral to the with domestic violence; however, the Government most suitable agency. is at present awaiting the report of the Anderson. Police involvement and time is thereby mini- committee set up by the previous Government. mised, freeing officers for other duties, and famil- Emergency accommodation is an essential ies in dispute have access to sensitive and support- component in dealing with violence in domestic ive help at a time when they most need it. 336 336[COUINCIL]

The establishment of this new service and the There is no principled or logical argument which further support for existing services, along with can justify this arrangement of representation. changes in legislation, can, I believe, be seen as a Parcels of votes are bundled together by squiggly statement by the community at large, that viol- lines on a map to ensure conservative domination ence in personal relationships is not acceptable. of this State's two Legislatures. It is an appalling We are now saying quite clearly that there is no situation when one considers our cultural incli- expectation that women have to tolerate violent nation to a "fair go" and our commitment to and damaging situations and that their retaining democratic principles. care of their children is dependent upon their re- Antiquated electoral laws prevented me from maining in a situation which engenders fear and representing my electorate until 22 May this year, anxiety. following the 19 February general election. Queen The potential now exists in this State for an Victoria's birthday has been legally enshrined in integrated and comprehensive service. It must be our State's Constitution as the date which deter- available to all people in need, men and women, mines the fixed term for this House, regardless of and will lead to a minimising of traumatic situ- when elections are held. The fact that this ations for many children. Chamber is unable to reflect the mood of the elec- Research shows that one in five police deaths torate says volumes about the previous Govern- while on duty occurs in the attendance of dom- ment's commitment to democracy. estic disputes. The benefits to the Police Force are The cartoonist Le Page depicted the gag on me, therefore quite significant. Police officers will be very well in the Comment News on 22 March able to pursue their role of law enforcement, and 1983. The gag, however, still does apply, but in refer to workers with the skills to deal with the another form. The Government is faced with the causes of the dispute. This in turn will reduce the fact that the majority of members in this House numerous return calls and protect police from one reflect a minority in the community. The mandate of their most hazardous duties. for this Government to govern is threatened by members who would have no right to their pos- I turn now to electoral reform and the South- itions, East Metropolitan Province. The constituents in if democratic principles applied. South-East Metropolitan Province, along with I represent 69 605 electors, the fourth largest other metropolitan electors, have been robbed of a constituency in this House. There are 20 members fair and eq~uitable vote. They are the losers in the sitting in this House who represent provinces with electoral processes of this State. More particu- less than 30 000 electors. I repeat that in South- larly the electors in the district Of Murdoch have East Metropolitan Province there are almost a vote which is worth less than any other vote 70 000 electors. It is an incredible fact that Lower when it comes to electing their member for the North Province has less than 7 200 electors and is other place. They have the highest enrolment for represented by two Legislative Councillors. It is any seat in the State, with 18 616 on the roll at one-tenth the size of the province represented by the State elections in February this year. By com- the Hon. Bob Hetherington and myselfl parison, Kalamunda had 8 956 electors and On one other account I make an observation of Murchison-Eyre 3 213. this Council and its claim to represent the people Electors are well aware that in the sector of Western Australia. Prior to 21 May there were through the south-east corridor their vote is worth three women members who represented 9.3 per half that of their neighbours who live on the other cent of the Council. From 22 May when the latest side of Albany Highway. The highway is the boundaries and enlarged membership applied, a boundary drawn by the previous Government to number of changes occurred in the occupancy of separate country voters from city voters. It was province seats. In this new Parliament there are not drawn by an independent panel of Electoral again three women members, but they now rep- Cornm issioners. resent only 8.8 per cent of the membership in this House. The boundary serves the purpose of containing large numbers of Labor voters in a smaller There is a great discrepancy between the 8.8 number of metropolitan seats. It has nothing to do per cent of women represented in this Chamber with the problems of country voters as we can see and the 51 per cent of women in the electorate. when we look at seats like Darling Range and It is quite clear that the system of electing the Kalamunda. The Opposition's argument is that Senate at the Federal level is infinitely fairer and distance and disadvantage apply to electors in is in keeping with democratic practice. It would Kalamunda and Lesmurdie who enjoy a double mean electors having votes of equal value. This vote in their country-designated West Province. system is fair and straightforward. It has never [Wednesday, 27 July 1983] 3373 applied to our State's Legislatures. Reforms have this 1-ouse-and its members-must have the been introduced in other Austalian States and are courage and honesty to reform itself. A perma- seen to be working in the interests of a more just nent, impartial electoral commission should means of representation. Both major political par- achieve this. ties can win under this system provided they get a The electoral reforms proposed by the present majority of votes. Government have the support of the majority of The proposal to reduce the number of members Western Australians and they will put behind us in this House to 22 does not mean less represen- the last 90 years of political manipulation. tation for electors. If we divide the number of In the South-East Province, which I represent, votes cast at the last election by 22, the number of 20 per cent of those eligible to vote in the recent electors per Legislative Councillor would be State election were not on the roll. The ridiculous 30 500. My constituents at present have one enrolment requirements and the refusal to allow member per 35 000 electors so the quality of their co-operation between State and Federal Electoral representation would immediately improve by Departments by the Liberal Government then in almost 17 per cent. I know my constituents would office, were a deliberate policy to minimise enrol- see the significance of this improved situation. ments; whereas democracy in Government implies The underlying philosophy Of equality before that the final authority rests with the people the law is relevant to this argument. Equality in themselves and that the will of the majority shall making the law also applies. It will be possible for prevail. This can be achieved only with full enrol- Western Australians to lay claim to this only ment.- when a system of one-vote-one-value is the basis The Burke Government's proposal to reduce the of our electoral processes. Until that time West- number of Legislative Councillors from 34 to 22 ern Australians will not enjoy the benefits of a so- will increase the ratio of representation from one ciety based on equality and the value of its indi- member of Parliament to 14 657, to one member vidual members. of Parliament to 16 883. Under fair distribution, It is my hope, Mr President, that this Thirty- this ratio is still very favourable when compared first Parliament will be the last to have its mem- with Queensland which has a ratio of one to bership based on bias, in favour of the privileged, 29 500 people. and that future members will reflect this nation's Further, the proposal to introduce a State-wide commitment to democratic principles. system of proportional representation counters the Government members: Hear, hear! gross imbalances, such as where 7 000 voters in THE HON. MARK NEVILL (South-East) one area are granted representation equal to 19.50 p.m.J: I support the motion. I thank the 85 000 voters in another area-as occurs in electors of South-East Province for their support North-East Metropolitan Province. and for making possible the privilege I have to The Government will move to provide a mech- represent them in this Chamber. anism for the resolution of deadlock situations be- Firstly, I shall deal with electoral reform. Aus- tween upper and lower Houses of State Parlia- tralia is a democracy and if Western Australia is ment. The present situation of "power without ac- to be a true democracy, the electoral reform of countability", where this House can send the this House must be effected without further delay Legislative Assembly back to the people without to make democracy a fact and not a mere pre- facing an election itself, should end. tence. It is most urgent, particularly in these critical The present gerrymander has persisted in this times, that the elected Government govern with- House for the best part of a century. At the re- out obstruction and that the Opposition should be cent State elections the Australian Labor Party effective rather than capricious. polled 5I1.3 per cent of the formal Legislative I turn secondly to the alignment of upper and Council vote; yet, despite winning the majority lower House terms. Under the present ridiculous vote of the people, the ALP won only seven of the system, an upper House member such as myself 17 Legislative Council seats. who was elected on 19 February of this year, did The present electoral jaws of the Legislative not become a member until 22 May, some three Council are not consistent with democracy. They months later. Simultaneously, members who had would be illegal in the national Parliament; they been rejected by the electorate still voted on a Bill would be illegal in every Australian State, with during the last sitting of this House. the exception of Queensland. To earn public The Government's proposal to align the upper credibility and to make this House a useful and and lower House terms, makes good sense. Under positive force in guiding the future of our State, the proposal, upper House members will take 338 338[COUNCIL] their seals at the same time as Lower House The efforts and productivity of the workforce in members: that is, at midnight on the night they the nickel and goidmining industries have helped are elected. keep those industries insulated from closure. The unions have shown commendable restraint during Thirdly, I shall deal with the alignment of the recession. This restraint should not be taken upper House electorates. The Esperanee area is for granted; management has faced up to its currently represented by myself as member for social responsibilities during the recession without South-East Province until 1989. It is represented resorting to widespread retrenchments. also by the member for South Province whose term expires in 1986. This causes great confusion. There are a number of practical ways in which we can provide the framework for the mining in- Members elected in 1980 should represent the dustry in this great region to develop and expand new boundaries for their provinces and not the old employment. boundaries as at present. Under the current legis- lation a constitutional amendment would be re- I want now to touch on areas where effort quired to achieve this sensible proposition. and/or reforms will assist the development of the eastern goldfields region and help improve the My fourth point relates to sunset legislation economy of this State. which I support strongly also. Under the Govern- I turn now to freehold mineral rights. Firstly, ment's proposed legislation, departmental boards we should end all existing freehold mineral rights. and committees will lapse after a period unless All minerals should belong to the Crown. In the legislation is introduced and passed specifically to eastern goldfields some 84 000 hectares of prime extend their terms, bearing in mind that there are exploration ground are held freehold with mineral over 400 of them and many had served their pur- rights by Hampton Gold Mining Areas and pose long ago. Hampton Trust Ltd. in 19 separate locations. Fifthly, I turn to my electorate of South-East These mineral and timber rights were granted to Province which covers the eastern goldfields and the Hampton Pastoral Company in 188 1. Esperance region of this State. On the foundation of the colony, the Crown be- came the owner of all the land and, therefore, also Healthy, profitable mining and agri cultural in- became the owner of all the minerals. When the dustries are essential to the economy of my elec- Crown commenced alienating land in the colony, torate. the base metals were not reserved to the Crown as Mining is the main industry in the eastern gold- they should have been. This position continued fields part of South-East Province. During the last until 1 January 1899, after which, by Statute, all 10 years I have been privileged to work with a minerals became reserved to the Crown. very talented and dedicated team with Western Because of this anachronistic situation, mining Mining Corporation under Roy Woodall, A.O., companies such as WMC have to pay nickel who is a man of exceptional leadership and royalties to Hampton Areas when I believe they ability. He is now director of exploration with should be paid to the Crown; that is, to all Aus- that company. tralians. Those 10 years were spent in mineral explo- All other Australian States have abolished pri- ration throughout the State, wvorking on operating vate mineral rights and resumed those minerals to gold and nickel mines in the eastern goldfields. the Crown. Our Mining Act 1978-82, did not Included in this period was five years' under- redress the situation in this State. These vast ground experience at Kambalda. areas, immensely attractive to other mining companies and prospectors, are close to existing The outlook for the mining industry is good. milling facilities. The gold price is healthy and most, if not all, of Three years ago I recall Hampton Areas at- the indicators point to upward pressure on gold tempted to negotiate the sale of its rights to nickel prices in the medium to long term. royalties to a major insurance company. The sale The nickel industry at Kanibalda is slowly fell through. However, I believe it is wrong that emerging fromt the worst price slump since the rights to mineral royalties can be sold off or Depression and is still intact, which is a transferred from the freehold. tremendous reflection of the resilience and skill of The existence of freehold mineral rights is the mining industry workforce in the goldfieids. anachronistic and the legislation should be They have survived when many mines around the brought into line with other States, and the prac- world have closed down or had large production tice ended, to open up these areas to other mining cutbacks. companies and prospectors. Australian minerals fWednesday, 27 July 1983]13 339 should be owned by all Australians. We cannot Pilbara. This imaginary concept has been long allow these anachronistic private mineral rights to championed by local members of Parliament, continue to exist. business, local government, and the Mayor of The Mining Act 1978-82 in its present form is Kalgoorlie, Mr Ray Finlayson. An all-weather unsatisfactory. The current inquiry will address road link will improve the viability of many min- itself to the areas of concern and hopefully will eral deposits en route and will strengthen the role Find a workable compromise between the various of Kalgoor lie- Boulder as a regional centre, and competing interests. enhance its tourism potential. The principal aim of the Mining Act is to en- I now turn to the other major and contrasting sure ground is explored to discover and evaluate region of South-East Province, the Esperance mineral resources. The amendments to the malice region, which is dominated by agriculture. Mining Act must ensure that the ground held The Australian Labor Party has always been under tenement is worked. Strict expenditure con- the "light on the hill" for agricultural industries. ditions only can ensure exploration is undertaken. Most if not all the durable reforms and initiatives The genuine prospector with limited capital must in agriculture such as the Snowy Mountains be protected also under the Mining Act. scheme, the Australian Wheat Board, the Aus- A further matter which should be addressed is tralian Wool Corporation, the Lamb Marketing the need for uniformity within the mining Acts of Board, and many others, are initiatives of the different States. Much of the exploration in this Australian Labor Party. I cannot think of one State is undertaken by groups and companies durable rural initiative of the "do nothing" which work throughout Australia. Much of the Men zies and Fraser Governments. confusion resulting from the difference between The Australian Labor Party is the only party State Acts could be eliminated by consultation committed to orderly marketing. Farmers, by a between the various State Ministers. big majority, support orderly marketing, yet both Another practical way we can assist and stimu- the Liberal Party and Country Party policies on late the mining industry in the eastern goldfields orderly marketing, and farmer thinking on this is to upgrade the exploration data base. The east- issue, are characterised by a philosophical chasm. ern goldfields is one of the most intensively ex- Although our political opponents oppose orderly plored mineral provinces in Australia. Much high marketing, they have never disbanded these great quality geological and geophysical information ALP initiatives, nor would the farmers allow has been generated in recent years, and I believe them to be disbanded. it is an opportune time to compile and publish the Within Western Australia the Esperance existing data in a more detailed form to avoid malice area has the highest level of farm debt. We costly duplication of exploration. A good pub- must remember that WA has the highest average lished data base will encourage more effective ex- on-farm debt of any State in Australia; a debt ploration. which now totals a staggering S1.12 billion and The State Government should consider ex- has grown at an annual rate of 16.4 per cent dur- tending the national topographic mapping to the ing the last six years. It can be seen from those eastern goldfields at a ]:100 000 scale. We should figures that the Esperance mallee farmers in my consider providing compilations of reprocessed electorate are one of the groups worst hit. aeromagnetic data at 1:50 000 scale and com- It is essential that farmland values reflect the mence compilation of more detailed geological potential rate of return from production. The high maps of the region also at 1:100 000 scale. land values of a few years ago are responsible for If this information is available publicly in a part of the current debt. Three and in some cases compiled form, it will stimulate exploration and four poor or non-existent seasons have also caused reduce much of the duplication in exploration the debt situation to deteriorate, particularly in which is ineffective and wasteful. The Western the maliee area. Australian School of Mines has the expertise and Part of the answer, I believe, to the rural debt the staff to assist in these programmes, which problem is the need for access to an adequate could be undertaken as a joint venture with the supply of long-term bank finance over 15 to 20 Geological Survey of Western Australia. years at market rates of interest. By that 1 mean The inland regional centre of Kalgoorlie- the bank rate for loans of less than $100 000. Boulder is linked to the east, south, and west by Long-term loans would enable farmers to sur- rail and sealed roads. The remaining link needs to vive the drought cycle. The long-term finance be developed; that is, the building of an all- must be made available for both operating finance weather road north from Kalgoorlie to the as well as for development costs. Most farmers 340 340[COUNCIL] now in trouble are both efficient farmers and country provide a factual basis on which decisions good managers who are being crippled by a com- can be made on the alternative use of public bination of a succession of poor seasons and high lands. interest rates on relatively short-term loans. I want to make the point that Crown land is It is essential that these owner-operators are public land and there is no such thing as vacant or kept in our rural industries, and I believe long- unused Crown land. It already has a use. term finance is the only answer. If foreign banks In Western Australia native vegetation is a de- are allowed to operate in Australia, they should clining resource of increasing value. Our decisions have a statutory requirement to provide long-term on alternative use of Crown land should be based farm loans to cover equipment and operating ex- on factual evidence from research. penses. Now that the System 2 environmental study. Rural adjustment scheme funds have been in- which covers the goldfields area, is almost com- creased by 90 per cent this year, from $18.4 to plete, I will be strongly urging the Government to $35 million, by the present Federal Government. commence the System 3 study next. The System 3 These funds are welcome but go only part of the area covers a 60 kilometre-wide strip along the way to alleviating the rural debt problems. I note south coast. With the System 3 study finalised we here that, in contrast, the previous Federal would have a complete regional study to guide our Government cut rural adjustment scheme funds land use decisions. by two-thirds in 1979. The conditions under which new land blocks I refer now to absentee owners. High rural land are allocated once Crown land has been rec- values in recent years have not reflected the ommended for agricultural use, need to he re- ability of the land to service the cost of capital. viewed. There have been many undesirable conse- Much of the buying has been from overseas or quences of the current conditions which urgently metropolitan bases and has resulted in prices need to be eliminated. being forced to unrealistic levels. Such speculative buying must be discouraged. We need to adopt The Government must seriously focus on the policies to reduce foreign ownership of farms and problems of rehabilitating some of the land discourage absentee owners. already cleared as a significant portion of our pro- The St. George's Terrace investors provided ductive farmlands have become sterilised and un- much needed capital to develop new land in the productive due to soil erosion and degradation, 1950s and 1960s. but I believe this capital does soil acidity, and soil salinity. not in most cases serve a useful purpose where it Known soil conservation techniques and soil purchases developed farms and increases the conservation programmes will greatly increase the amount of land held by absentee owners. We have productivity of existing farmland. Accepted dry to encourage the sale of these properties to land farming methods at the end of this decade capable young farmers, who are being excluded in will be greatly different from what they are today. increasing numbers from the opportunity to estab- In conclusion I wish to pay tribute to my prede- lish a family farm. cessor, the Hon. Ron Leeson, MLC, a man with a On the subject of new land releases, I welcome great feel for and knowledge of the goldfields who the Government's review. New land needs loyally represented South-East Province and the thorough appraisal before release. The land re- Australian Labor Party in both Government and leases are being made in increasingly marginal Opposition for 12 years. areas and we need to be very circumspect if we I thank the staff of Parliament House for their are not to pay the price later. If they fail we will kind help, and finally I wish to thank again the have a repetition of the bankruptcies and walk- electors of South-East Province for the confidence offs which occurred during the depression in the they have shown in me and the Australian Labor Grass Patch-Salmon Gums areas. Do not be Party. fooled, this could happen again! [Applause]. The releases should be made after a thorough Debate adjourned, on motion by the study and when viability is established. Both the L. Williams. present detail of soil mapping and botanical Hon. R. J. studies are inadequate and zoological studies are SPECIAL non-existent. Our current studies are rudimentary ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE: compared with the Victorian Government studies TH-E H-ON. D. K. DANS (South Metropoli- of its mallce areas, studies which were completed tan-Leader of the House) [10.11 p.m.]: I 10 years ago. Their reports on similar types of move- [Wednesday, 27 July 19831 3414

That the House at its rising adjourn until questions I consider to be of some im- Tuesday, 2 August. portance. Would it not be a proper Question put and passed. course of action to make sure the answers are recorded in Hansard by having the Minister read those answers? House adjourned at 10. 12 p.m. If the answers are not to be read out here, it would seem there is no purpose QUESTIONS ON NOTICE in reading out the questions. In addition, if any member were particularly EDUCATION: WESTERN AUSTRALIAN interested in the matter, the answer INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY should be read out so that he could make a comment. Debt Collection The PRESIDENT: It is up to the 5. The Hon. N. F. MOORE, to the Minister Minister whether he answers the representing the Minister for Education: question in the House or in the form he (1) Is it a fact that the Western Australian decides to answer it. I rule that there is Institute of Technology has employed no point of order. debt collecting agencies to recover ser- Questions (on notice) Resumed vices and amenities fees from students attending the institute? (2) If so- INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: AGREEMENT (a) how many students have been Builders Labourers' Federation and Multiplex served notices by the debt collecting agencies; and Constructions Pty. Ltd. (b) what are the names of the debt col- 7. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS, to the Minister lecting agencies employed by the for Industrial Relations: institute? I refer to an agreement between the The Hon. J_ M. BERINSON replied: BLF and Multiplex regarding increased (I) and (2) (a) and (b) In view of the time site allowances and reduction in working factor involved, the Minister for Edu- hours to a 36-hour working week. cation has answered this question in The previous Government had arranged writing to the member. to take the matter before the State In- dustrial Commission believing the agree- EDUCATION: PRIMARY SCHOOL ment contravened the terms of the wage Canning Vale: Replacement freeze laid down by the Commission itself. 6. The Hon. P. G. PENDAL, to the Minister (1) Does the State Government support representing the Minister for Education: a Wage Freeze? (1) In view of the Minister's commitment to (2) Why did the State Government provide a replacement new school for withdraw from the proceedings? Canning Vale, can he say when this will occur? (3) Do Multiplex and the BLF see the withdrawal of action as condoning (2) If not, can the Minister say what ar- the agreement? rangements he favours for the replacing of Canning Vale School upon its (4) Would support for the agreement intended closure this year? lead to immense pressure by the BLF on other building companies The Hon. J. M. BERINSON replied: for a similar agreement; I 'e. a (1) and (2) In view of the time factor reduction to a 36-hour working involved, the Minister for Education has week? answered this question in writing to the (5) Why has the Government appeared Member. to condone the agreement a few Point of Order days after gaining power and then The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I have a almost immediately condemned a number of questions on the notice paper, 36 hour working week? 342 342[COUNCIL]

(6) Would the Minister agree the TOWN PLANNING: SERVETUS STREET Government's action is totally in- AND HOPE AVENUE consistent? Metropolitan Region Planning Scheme: (7) Does the fact that a reduction in Amendments hours to a 36 hour working week 8. The Hon. P. 0. PENDAL, to the Minister with the building industry means a representing the Minister for Employment possible $2 000 additional cost to an and Administrative Services: average home, concern the Govern- ment? (1) Is it the Government's intention to seek (8) Did the State Government consult Parliamentary approval for amendments with- to the Metropolitan Region Planning Scheme in relation to Servetus Street? (a) the TLC; (2) If so, will the Government include in the (b) the MBA; proposed amendments a provision to de- (c) the Confederation of Industry, lete from the scheme proposals for the before deciding on such action? Hope Avenue interchange in Manning? The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Notwithstanding the fact that I have (1) If Government decides that alterations already written to the Hon. G. E. Mas- to the scheme in relation to Servetus ters about this matter, the answer is as Street are required, it will use the par- follows- liamentary process. (1) Yes. (2) Deletion of the controlled access high- way reservation for the Hope Avenue (2) The State Government did not interchange from the metropolitan re- withdraw from the proceedings re- gion scheme, is not related to the lating to Applications No. 86 of Servetus Street issue. 1983 before the Western Australian The Minister has received a deputation Industrial Commission. from the City of South Perth on this (3) Not applicable. matter, and as a result technical (4) to (6) investigations are currently under way The agreement between the BLF with a view to early consideration of the and Multiplex was reached as long matter by the Metropolitan Region ago as December 1981, when the Planning Authority. previous Government was in office, and was presumably arrived at by LAND: CROWN the parties in good faith. Mt. Margaret: Transfer The Government has discarded the 9. The Hon. N. F. MOORE, to the Minister previous Government's practice of representing the Minister for Lands and Sur- seeking industrial confrontation for veys: political purposes and will not be interfering in the normal processes (1) Has Crown Lease No. 332/1997, Re- of industrial relations. serve No. 5175 (grazing lease at Mt. Margaret) been transferred from the (7) The member's question appears to United Aboriginal Mission to the Abor- be based on ignorance as there is no iginal Movement for Outback Survival evidence that the 36-hour week has (AMOS)? been adopted in the home building industry. (2) If so, will the Minister advise- (a) the date of the (8) No. The TLC, MBA, and the Con- transfer; and federation of WA Industry were not (b) the signatories on behalf of party to the proceedings before the AMOS? State Industrial Commission so it The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: was unnecessary to confer with (1) and (2) Subsequent to the Minister for them before seeking an adjourn- Lands and Surveys' advice to the mem- ment. ber of 18 April 1983, a transfer dated IS [Wednesday, 27 July 1983134 343

February 1983, conveying the interest of order to have Western Australia con- the United Aboriginal Mission to sidered instead of Nowra as the base? AMOS incorporated in lease 332/1997 The Hon. J. M. BERINSON replied: was endorsed with my consent 29 April Yes. 1983. (I) (2) No. The Prime Minister was referring to A photocopy of the transfer, which is a coastal surveillance force, which may available on public record and in this in- include an aerial section and a ground stance held by Lands Department, is section as well as a seagoing section. The submitted for tabling for the member's Premier was referring to the need for a information. patrol boat base in the north west-there is one established in Cairns INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: ALEXANDER and one recently commissioned in LIBRARY Darwin. There is urgent need for a base Concrete Pour between Exmouth and Broome. Boats of the coastal surveillance force referred to The Hon. G. E. MASTERS, to the Minister 10. by the Prime Minister would use the pa- for Industrial Relations: trol boat referred to by the Premier. Will the State Government compensate (3) Nowra is an inland defence air base, and the company affected by the while being available for the aerial sec- interruption to a concrete pour at the tion, would not be available for patrol Alexander Library or simply allow it to boats. The Government has made appro- be driven into bankruptcy (the stated priate representations. intention of the BIF to any company which refuses to comply with its de- ABORIGINES: ABORIGINAL LANDS mands)? TRUST The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Mission Site 1983 7 State Government contracts do not pro- 12. The Hon. N. F. MOORE, to the Minister vide for reimbursement of additional representing the Minister for Lands and Sur- costs arising from delays unless the veys: delay is caused by the principal or the principal could be held responsible for (1) Is Aboriginal Mission site 19837 vested the delay. in the Aboriginal Lands Trust? However, the State Government con- (2) If so, will the Minister advise- tracts do allow for the contractor to (a) when this vesting was made; apply for an extension of time when de- (b) who held the title to the site prior to lays occur. its being vested in the Aboriginal Lands Trust; DEFENCE (c) whether the Aboriginal Lands Coastal Surveillance Force Trust has the power to lease the 11. The Hon. P. G. PENDAL, to the Minister site, and if so, has this been done, for Inter-Governmental Relations and De- and to whom; fence Liasion: (d) who owns the buildings located on the site which were constructed (1) Has the Minister's attention been drawn prior to the vesting in the Aborigi- to Mr Hawke's remark in The West nal Lands Trust; and Australian of 7 March 1983 wherein Mr Hawke says, "We will be giving particu- (e) who owns the buildings located on lar emphasis to the development of the the site which have been con- coastal surveillance force"? structed since the vesting in the Ab- original Lands Trust? (2) Is this force the same or similar to Mr (3) If not, who owns Burke's policy document with reference the site, or holds the lease for the site? to a patrol base in the North-West? The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: (3) To what extent has the Minister rep- resented the Western Australian (1) Yes Government policy to Mr Hawke in (2) (a) 6 July 1973; 344 344[COUNCIL]

(b) the area was set apart as a reserve (2) Are some of these appointments on for an "Aboriginal Mission" and special contract arrangements? was not vested; (3) Is it true that some of the new appoint- (c) the vesting order conveyed the ments are on more favourable terms power to lease and any such leasing than the normal Public Service appoint- does not require my approval: ments? (d) ownership of any buildings erected (4) Could he supply details of the contracts prior to vesting passes to the Abor- and the estimated cost to the public to iginal Lands Trust by virtue of that the end of June 1983? vesting; The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: (e) buildings erected subsequent to (1) to (4) In view of a similar question, No. vesting form part of the land under 125, on 26 July 1983 in the Legislative the control of the vestee. Assembly, the Premier has indicated (3) Not applicable. that he will make a statement to Parlia- ment in the near future on the changes to the machinery of the Government ROAD: CANNING HIGHWAY since assuming office. Underpass/Overpass 13. The Hon. P. G. PENDAL, to the Minister NOISE: ABATEMENT ACT representing the Minister for Transport and Review Regional Development: 15. The Hon. P. G. PENDAL, to the Minister (1) Has the Main Roads Department an ar- representing the Minister for Health: rangement with the City of' South Perth for the construction of an underpass or (1) Will the review of the Noise Abatement overpass on Canning Highway near the Act initiated by the former Government Hurlingham Hotel? last year be continued? (2) If so, could the Minister give details of (2) If so. will the Minister ensure that special attention is paid in the review to likely cost and expected commencement the problem of noise emanating from date of construction? neighbours' properties from such sources The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: as air-conditioners? (1) Yes. (3) Would the Minister be prepared to have (2) Detailed estimates have not yet been his officers consult with the Melville prepared. However, preliminary esti- City Council over the problems faced by mates indicate the cost will be in the certain persons in Kardinya to ascertain order of $300 000. whether the noise levels they complain Subject to property resumption, work on of are more than what should be toler- the underpass could commence in late able? August 1983. The Hon. J1.M. BERINSON replied: (1) to (3) The information has been pro- GOVERNMENT ADMINISTRATION: vided by letter to the member. APPOINTMENTS Additional: Number and Conditions of EDUCATION: PRIMARY SCHOOL Employment McKay Street: Staff Level 14. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS, to the Minister 16. The Hon. P. G. PENDAL, to the Minister representing the Premier: representing the Minister for Education: (1) Will the Premier supply a list of new ap- I refer the Minister to the letter of ItI pointments. permanent, part-time or March 1983 sent to him by the Presi- temporary, since the Burke Government dent of the McKay Street Primary gained power- School P. & C. Association and ask if (a) in Ministers' offices; the Minister will give favourable con- sideration to the request for restoring (b) in departments; the previous staff level in view of the of people outside the Public Service? fact that this school is now in the last [Wednesday, 27 July 1983] 3454

year of its life before it makes way for LOTTERIES: INSTANT the National Police Training Academy? Turnover The Hon. J. M. BERINSON replied: 19. The Hon. TOM McNEIL, to the Minister In view of the time factor involved, the representing the Minister for Employment Minister for Education has answered and Administrative Services: this question in writing to the member. (1)Would the Minister advise what the total turnover of instant lottery sales has HOSPITAL: MULLEWA DISTRICT been since inception, and give a break- Renovation down of those sales in months? 17. The Hon. TOM McNEIL, to the Minister (2) How do these sales relate to the sales in other States during their initial sales representing the Minister for Health: period? Would the Minister advise whether (3) Will the Lotteries Commission be taking kitchen renovation work at the Mullewa steps to supply all agencies with instant District Hospital is to be included in the lottery tickets? 1983-84 Capital Works programme? (4) If not, why not? The Hon. J. M. BERINSON replied: The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Yes. The kitchen renovation work at the S million Mullewa District Hospital is to be in- (1) December 1982 4.5 cluded in the 1983-84 capital works pro- January 1983 5.5 gramme, February 1983 5.0 March 1983 5.5 PRISONS: VEHICLES April 1983 3.5 May 1983 4.5 Conversion June 1983 3.5 I8. The Hon. TOM McNEIL, to the Minister representing the Minister (or Health: TOTAL 32 Would the Minister advise whether it is normal practice when prison vehicles are (2) Official figures are not readily available. traded in that the new vehicle has its Unconfirmed comparisons of sales indi- chassis shortened to accommodate the cate a higher per capita in Western Aus- canopy which is removed from the old tralia during the first six months of prison vehicle? sales. (3) and (4) All existing agents as at 30 (2) If "Yes". what is the cost to convert the November 1982, were invited to include new vehicle? instant lottery tickets, not all accepted. (3) If -No", would he investigate why this has happened previously? LOTTERIES: AGENCIES The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: Geraldton (1) No. 20. The Hon. TOM McNEIL, to the Minister (2) Not applicable. representing the Minister for Employment and Administrative Services: (3) One vehicle was shortened in order to accommodate an escort vehicle security (1) Would the Minister advise the names of cabin which was removed from a traded- lottery agencies in the Geraldton region in short wheel base vehicle. The replace- and the date on which licences were ment cost of a new security cabin for the issued to them? vehicle in question was quoted at 58 000. (2) What criteria are used to determine the A substantial saving therefore resulted most suitable applicants? from shortening the wheel base and fit- (3) Is it the Lotteries Commission's practice ting the secondhand security cabin. The when granting licences to take into con- vehicle was inspected and licensed by sideration whether agencies are capable police traffic authorities after the modi- of providing a weekend service to the fications had been carried out. public? 346 346[COUNCIL]

The Hon. D. K_ DANS replied: (2) If "Yes", why the massive difference in (1) Boans Limited 1980 charges? Homewood News Agency 1962 (3) If "No", what action does the Minister G. Fiocco. 1944 propose, to bring the charge to a more Connelly & Faugno 1971 acceptable level? CT's News (Northgate Centre) 1983 The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: Wonthella Newsagency 1968 (1)The Minister is aware there is a cost dif- Mercantile Club 1968 ference, but the costs quoted appear to (2) The type of business, the location and be inaccurate. the potential. (2) Because the member has not given de- (3) Hours of business are a consideration tails of the size of the consignment or and could be a deciding factor if all the freight mode employed (prepaid par- things are equal between applicants fur cels, general freight or sprint express), an agency. the Minister is unable to give a specific answer. HOUSING: GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES' However, charge differences are brought HOUSING AUTHORITY about mainly due to maintaining ac- Water Tanks counting and credit facilities and other such related charges. 21. The Hon. TOM McNEIL, to the Minister (3) Not applicable. representing the Minister for Housing: (1) Is it the practice of the PWD to hold NATURAL DISASTER: FLOOD discussions with the Education Depart- Corrigin: ment or school principal before siting A'filigation Works water tanks at GEHA homes in country 23. The Hon. H. W. GAYFER, to the Minister areas for use by school teachers? representing the Minister for Water Re- (2) Is ground compacting and testing car- sources: ried out by the PWD before the water When is it expected that the proposed tanks are sited and Filled? flood mitigation works at Corrigin will The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: be presented to the Commonwealth Government for funding under the (1) It is not the practice of SHC supervisors national resources programme? to discuss siting of water tanks with the school principal though he may be con- The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: sulted as to whether any existing similar A submission to the Commonwealth installations are adequate in terms of ca- Government for the funding of this proj- pacity. ect was recently des patched. (2) Testing of building sites is not normally carried out unless the ground is sus- EDUCATION: YORK pected of having problems. In the case H-Ieadmaster's Residence of footings for domestic water tanks the 24. The Hon. H. W. GAY FER, to the area concerned is small and the ground Minister normally even in compaction, so that representing the Minister for Education: when loaded any subsidence is evenly (I) When is it proposed that a new head- distributed and of negligible magnitude. master's residence will be erected in York? RAILWAYS: FREIGHT (2) On which block in which street is it pro- Joint Venture: Rates posed that such a residence is to be erected? 22. The Hon. TOM McNEIL, to the Minister The Hon. J. M. BERINSON replied: representing the Minister for Transport: (1) A house has been included, with pri- (1) Is the Minister aware that an article ority, in the 1983-84 building pro- sent through Total West to Geraldton gramme requirements submitted to the costs $3.00 freight if prepaid and $9.00 Government Employees' Housing Auth- to the recipient if not prepaid? ority. [Wednesday, 27 July 1983]34 347

(2) This will be determined when the (2) If not, when will they be established? funding provision for the 1983-84 (3) In the event of police stations being es- financial year has been finalised. tablished at Boyanup, Capel, or Dardanup, or all three, will the police EDUCATION: HIGH SCHOOL complements at either Bunbury or York Junior: Transportable Classroom Busselton be downgraded, or services 25, The Hon. H. W. GAYFER, to the Minister now provided by these stations be representing the Minister for Education: lessened in any way? PETER DOWDING replied: When is the fifth transportable class- The Hon. room promised to the York Junior High (1) and (2) It is not possible to put a precise School expected to arrive and be timetable on the establishment of these available for use? police stations at this time. The Hon. J. M. I3ERINSON replied: (3) No. Instructions have been given for the transfer of a classroom to York from a MINERAL SANDS: INDUSTRY school where a building programme has Inquiry: Establishment just been completed. It is expected to be in position within three or four weeks. 28. The Hon. V. J. FERRY, to the Minister rep- resenting the Minister for Health: EDUCATION: HIGH SCHOOL (1) Is it a fact that the Government has, or York Junior: Transportable Classroom intends to, set up arn inquiry into the 26. The Hon. H-.W. GAYFER, to the Minister mineral sands industry? representing the Minister for Education: (2) If so- When is it proposed to replace the (a) what is the purpose of such an in- transportables, currently in use, with quiry; new permanent buildings at the York (b) what date did, or will, the inquiry Junior High School site to house chil- commence; dren and teachers in conditions that pre- what are the terms of reference;, vailed on the old site before the school (c) was amalgamated in the new area? (d) by what date is the inquiry expected The Hon. J. M. BERINSON replied: to be completed; and Years six and seven primary classes (e) what are the names and qualifi- were transferred to the newer site at cations of the members of the in- York because two rooms at the older site quiry? were considered to be unsatisfactory. The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: There are no immediate plans to replace (1) The Government has agreed to com- these rooms with permanent buildings mission an independent review to make but the long-term objective is to extend recommendations upon the adequacy of, the York District High School in brick and compliance with, codes of practice, construction. regulations and legislation regulating radiation protection in the mining, pro- POLICE: STATIONS cessing. and transport of heavy mineral Boyanup, Capel, and Dardanup sands and the disposal of tailings. The review will also consider whether any ac- 27. The Hon. V. J. FERRY, to the Minister rep- tion need be taken in relation to the re- resenting the Minister for Police and Emerg- ency Services: moval of materials from tailings dumps. (2) (a) See (1) above; (1) In accordance with the election promise made by the Government in its Bunbury (b) to be determined; 2000 Concept, can the people of (c) see (1) above; Boyanup, Cape), and Dardanup, expect (d) unknown at this stage; to have the benefit of police stations this year? (e) not yet finalised. 348 348IICOUNCIL]

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE FUEL AND ENERGY: GAS MINING: NOONKANBAH STATION Pipeline: Extension to Kalgoorlie Agreement: Seismic Surveys 13. The Hon. J. M. BROWN, to the Minister 11. The Hon. N. F. MOORE. to the Minister for Mines: for Mines: Has consideration been given to a poss- A recent agreement between the Abor- ible gas pipeline extension to iginal community at Noonkanbah and Kalgoorlie? the International Energy Development The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: Corporation allows the IEOC to carry out seismic operations on EP 97 which A possible gas pipeline extension to occurs on the Noonkanibah lease. Would Kalgoorlie is being studied. the Minister advise the House what part The Kalgoorlie extension is part of a was played by him and the Minister for general investigation of pipeline laterals Community Services in negotiating for from the main Dampier-Wagerup line, this agreement? including extensions to Bunbury, The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: Worsley, Cape Lambert, and Geraldton. The Government reversed the trend some of these have already been shown which was evident by the performance to be economically attractive, while of the previous Government, of creating others still require more study. a situation of unhappiness and confron- I do not want to raise false hopes in the tation between mining and Aboriginal eastern goldfields about the gas pipeline interests. The policy of the Government possibility. has been to ensure that where there are Much further engineering, cost esti- competing interests for land use or com- mation, and market assessment work is munity interests that require careful required before we can take the matter a handling, it does everything to facilitate step further. that. With reference to this situation, I was not involved in negotiations. The Consultants are presently assisting the matter has been raised with me by a State Energy Commission in looking at number of people, on many occasions, in the possibility of an eight-inch diameter different places, and I gave what guid- pipeline to the goldfields, which could ance 1 could to ensure that an amicable, take 12 to 18 months to construct. sensible, and workable arrangement was Detailed investigations are not likely to achieved; and I believe one was. be completed for several months. The Kalgoorlie lateral would be the MINING: NOONKANBAH STATION biggest of all and would involve Agreement: "Areas of Significance" significant financial commitment by the State Energy Commission. 12. The Hon. N. F. MOORE, to the Minister for Mines: Obviously such expenditure must be very carefully evaluated indeed, es- Would he advise the House whether the pecially in view of the enormous gas agreement to which I referred in my project outlays already committed and, previous question specifically excludes therefore, I urge caution before anyone from drilling the so-called area of influ- assumes that the Kalgoorlie pipeline is a ence delineated by Peter Bindon in his 1goer" report to the Museum in 1979? The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: I am not aware that the arrangement INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: AGREEMENTS between the IEDC. and the community Acceptance by Parties makes any reference to drilling. I under- stand. at this stage, that the work pro- 14. The Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for gramme requires seismic work. As the Industrial Relations: member may know it is not necessary Does he believe that if both parties ac- for drilling to occur during seismic work. cept the decision of any wages or salary [Wednesday, 27 July 19831 3494

tribunal, this decision should be adhered bers of Parliament, are unable to sign to until one or other of the parties ap- photographs for passports? proaches the tribunal for some change? (2) If "Yes" to (1), are steps being taken to The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: alleviate the situation where people re- Yes. quire photographs to be witnessed? The Hon. J. M. BERINSON replied: JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (1) and (2) Yes, I am aware of the situation Members of Parliament: Appointment and steps have been taken, but have I5. The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER, to the Attorney been unsuccessful. The background is General: that the decision imposing the restriction was taken by the Minister for Foreign (1) What reason did the Government have Affairs. Following his decision I made the appointment as JPs to for offering representations to him to reinstate members of Parliament? justices as proper persons to witness (2) Will those members who have accepted passport photographs. However, the this appointment be required to carry Commonwealth Minister has replied in out court duties? terms which indicate that there is no (3) If so, will members be required to early likelihood of his reversing his de- undertake a course conducted by the cision. Crown Law Department for justices of the peace? The Hon. J. M. BERINSON replied: MINISTERS OF THE CROWN (1) to (3) The former restrictions against Letters to Newspapers: Responsibility the appointment of members of Parlia- ment as justices of the peace was lifted 17. The Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Leader of because it was considered that members the House: of Parliament were suitable persons for Does be believe that any Minister such appointment. They have a standing writing to a newspaper should take re- in the community which is appropriate sponsibility for any letter that he writes? for a justice of the peace. The location of their electoral offices makes them The PRESIDENT: The honourable member available to provide a service to mem- is asking for an opinion, as was his first bers of the public. The standing or mem- question which was, in fact, out of order, bers is indicated by their election to this but I let that go. I urge all honourable place and is sufficient to justify the con- members to read Standing Order No. fidence placed in them. 154. I would not expect members of Parlia- ment to serve on the bench; certainly not in the normal course of events. There QUESTIONS: WITHOUT NOTICE would be no requirement for them to do so as there are already adequate justices Answers in all areas served by honourable mem- I8. The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER, to the Leader bers. My advice, for what it is worth, is of the House: that it would be preferable for members of Parliament to refrain from serving in Will he give an undertaking that, in that capacity. keeping with the normal procedures of this House, questions without notice will JUSTICES OF THE PEACE be answered at the next day of sitting? Passport Photographs: Witnessing The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: 16. The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER, to the Attorney I am unable to give that assurance until General: such time as the matter of the sitting (1) Is the Attorney General aware that times of this House has been attended justices of the peace, other than mem- to. 350 350[COUNCIL]

INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: AGREEMENT thrown up by the implementation of the Builders Labourers' Federation and Multiplex legislation. It might be expected that Constructions Pty. Ltd. with any major change of that sort anomalies will occur. A mechanism was 19. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS, to the Minister built into the legislation by his party, for Industrial Relations: when in Government, which enabled My question refers to question 7 on anomalies to be dealt with. I was today's notice paper. Bearing in mind involved in correcting some of those that the Minister read the answer that anomalies and the specific matter to was sent to me in May 1983 in reply to a which the member refers was one such question asked in March 1983. does he anomaly. If he wants any further infor- wish to change the comments he made? mation about it I will consider giving it He said, and I quote- to him if he addresses a question to me The Government will not be in writing or places it on notice. interfering in the normal processes of industrial relations. CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES I ask this question on the basis that Vehicle there has been gross interference in re- lation to the MTT, the SEC, the Perth 21. The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER, to the Leader City Council, and the CSA. of the House: Would the Minister like to change his In keeping with the practice of the mind and does he believe that the bodies Legislative Assembly, is it the intention I have quoted have been subjected to of the Government to supply the Chair- gross interference? man of Committees of the Legislative The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Council with a vehicle? No. I do not think they were subjected The Hon. D. K. DANS replied: to gross interference and I have no We are a generous Government in terms intention of changing the answer I gave of conditions to members of Parliament; the member in writing and which I had this can be traced back to the last time the courtesy to answer tonight in this we were in Government. The matter is Chamber. under consideration.

INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: WAGE JUDGES AND PUBLIC SERVANTS INCREASES Private Housing: Provision Relativity with other States 22. The Hon. R. J. L. WILLIAMS, to the At- 20. The Hon. P. H. WELLS, to the Minister for torney General: Fuel and energy: It was reported in The West Australian (1) Has an approach been made to the At- that the Minister recommended a rise be torney General for the provision of pri- granted to 300 SEC workers and the vate housing or lodging for members of Federated Drivers and Firemen's Union the judiciary when on circuit and poss- of Workers of Western Australia on the ibly for other uses by peripatetic public basis that they should receive the same servants? wages as their counterparts in other (2) If not, would he consider such a request States. to help preserve the integrity and neu- (1) Is that report correct? trality of the judiciary in particular? (2) Has the Minister recommended The Hon. J. M. BERINSON replied: other wage rises on a similar basis? (1) and (2) I have received no such request. (3) If so, on what basis? In accordance with my usual practice, The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: however, I would certainly consider any Naturally I reserve (1) to (3) The member will know that after reasonable proposal. the announcement of the wages freeze myself from any advance commitment in legislation a number of anomalies were respect of conceding it. [Wednesday, 27 July 1983]31 351

AGRICULTURE PROTECTION BOARD The Hon. P. G. Pendal: Why have you changed your mind? Starlings: Eradication The HaIn. PETER DOWDING: I am aware 23. The Hon. D. J. WORDSWQRTH, to the of the member's propensity and appar- Leader of the House: ent desire to inflame the situation; I note (1) How many Agriculture Protection that from his Press statements on this Board officers or employees are involved issue. either Cull time or part time in the eradi- I would have thought members of the cation of starlings? Government would have the full support (2) What numbers and brands of firearms of members of the Opposition in seeking are used from time to time by these to work out a sensible agreement provid- officers? ing for proper exploration of an area of the State. However, for some reason the (3) Where have starlings been observed in Hon. Norman Moore seems to find it this State, and in what numbers? necessary to suggest there is something The PRESIDENT: Order! That question is odd about that desire of the Govern- out of order because it refers to a matter ment. If from time to time further prob- being dealt with in the other place. lemns occur in any area of the State, they will be addressed. I do not believe that MINING: NOONKANBAH STATION trying to whip up a bit of enthusiasm for problems by the asking of~hypothetical Agreement: "Areas of Significance" questions is in the interests of the State. 24. The Hon. N. F. MOORE, to the Minister I have noted with some regret the way in for Mines: which the Hon. Norman Moore has pur- Following my previous question to the sued this matter. Minister in respect of the agreement be- tween IEDC and the Noonkanbah com- MINING: NOONKANBAH STATION munity I ask- Agreement: "Areas of Significance" The IEDC company would have 25. The Hon. N. F. MOORE, to the Minister reasonable expectations that, in the for Mines: event that its seismic work was to suggest drilling should take place, May I restate the previous question and the agreement it now has would hope to get an answer this time? allow it to carry out drilling. In The PRESIDENT: Order! You cannot ask view of the fact the Government is the same question again. in a position through the Aboriginal The Hon. N. F. MOORE: Will the Minister Heritage Act to declare certain give an undertaking to this House that areas as "areas of significance" and he will use his powers, or that his to prevent drilling from taking Government will use its powers to pre- place, would the Minister advise vent drilling on the so-called "area of in- whether the Government will use fluence" delineated by Peter Bindon? that Act to prevent any drilling The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: from taking place on the so-called I am not aware that that issue has "area of influence" delineated by arisen. the Bindon report of 1979? The Hon. N. F. Moore: It arose in 1979. The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: The Hon. PETER DOWDING: The Hon. I do not accept the assertions the mem- Norman Moore knows it arose in 1979. ber expressed in his question. I have to the great discredit of the then already noted his tendency to try to in- Government and to Western Australia. I flame this situation. certainly do not intend to repeat the be- The Hon. N. F. Moore: Rubbish! You ought haviour of the previous Government. to talk. The Hon. N. F. Moore: Answer the question. The Hon. P. G. Pendal: He wants to know The Hon. PETER DOWDING: I will not why you have changed your mind. answer-nor, as the Hon. Norman The PRESIDENT: Order! Moore knows, am I obliged to 352 352[COUNCIL]

answer-a question about hypothetical The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: matters. This is a hypothetical question, I have no recollection of the Hon. A. A. and I do not believe the answer should Lewis asking me for any such undertak- go beyond that which I have given. ing since the Parliament rose in March. The Hon. N. F. Moore: That is absolute non- I recall not so long ago inviting the Hon. sense! What a pathetic performance! A. A. Lewis to my office to discuss a certain matter, and he raised no other issues with me. If, in his view, there exists some matter Pressing for attention AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY by me or my department, I invite him to Height: Consultations raise it with me and it will be attended to immediately. 26. The Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for Fuel and Energy: AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY With reference to questions without no- Height: Consultations tice 4 to 8, has the Minister or his de- 27. The Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for partment obtained any more information Fuel and Energy: relating to the height of agricultural machinery, or does he intend to- In the first place, I asked the Minister to make some inquires. It is on record in The PRESIDENT: Order! The honourable Hansard. It is not my job to provide this member will need to be a little more ex- information to the Minister. Will he or plicit in regard to identifying his will he not make the inquiries? question. The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Certainly, Mr I have not had the benefit of a long President. On 23 March 1983, I hap- holiday as has the Hon. A. A. Lewis. pented to ask the Minister questions about a letter he wrote to the Sunday The Hon. G. E. Masters: You have been Independent in which~ he made certain away a few times, have you not? How statements about farm machinery. On many times have you been overseas? that day, I asked the Minister certain The Hon. PETER DOWDING: I trust this questions, none of which was answered. alleged failure on my part to supply him He would not give me an undertakinj with information did not distress him then-and he has not given rme one during that holiday. I give the Hon. A. since-that he or his department would A. Lewis an undertaking that if he raises check the accuracy of the statements the matter with me, I will have it at- made. I am now asking the Minister to tended to. check the accuracy of his letter and then The Hon. A. A. Lewis: I have just raised it. to tell the House whether or not he mis- led the House, and to whom he spoke in regard to the height of agricultural MINING: NOONKANBAH STATION machinery. All I got from the Minister Agreement: EP 97 in reply was, "You tell us". He is getting 28. The Hon. N. F. MOORE, to the Minister paid to administer this department and for Mines: it is not up to me to obtain this infor- I appreciate the Minister's earlier re- mation. The Minister has tried to get sponse that he was not directly involved away from answering the question. Will in the agreement, but I wish to ask a he now answer it? question in respect of that agreement [Wednesday, 27 July 1983]15 353

which he may be able to answer. Can he by the company with the terms of the tell the House whether the agreement Aboriginal Heritage Act. The Govern- includes a clause which would allow drilling on EP 97 in the event the ment was not a party to that agreement company wishes to do so? and in those circumstances I do not be- The Hon. PETER DOWDING replied: lieve I have any right to disclose the The agreement to which the Hon. N. F. basis of the arrangements privately en- Moore refers is one between the company and members of an Aboriginal tered into between the company and the community to facilitate the compliance community.

(12)