LOCAL GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE
Wednesday 1 September 1999 (Morning)
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CONTENTS
Wednesday 1 September 1999
Col.
MCINTOSH REPORT ...... 18 FORWARD PLAN ...... 28
LOCAL GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE 2nd Meeting
CONVENER : *Trish Godman (West Renfrew shire) (Lab)
COMMI TTEE MEMBERS : *Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP) *Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow ) (SNP) *Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD) *Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) *Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab) *Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) *Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab) *Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab) *Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP) *Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) *attended
COMMI TTEE CLERK: Eugene Windsor
ASSISTANT CLERK: Craig Harper
17 1 SEPTEMBER 1999 18
Scottish Parliament have photocopied and sent out to members. Councils have written to us saying that they would like us to visit them, and we have had a fax from Local Government Committee the Citizens Advice Scotland saying the same thing and putting forward its case. Some of the Wednesday 1 September 1999 correspondence is not relevant to this committee, so I will ask the clerks to have a look at it before (Morning) sending it out to members. There is also a statement from Jack McConnell [THE CONVENER opened the meeting at 10:06] on why the Executive has rejected the idea of having an independent review of local government The Convener (Trish Godman): Colleagues, I finance. I will have that photocopied and sent to am sure that Bristow has been delayed as we members of the committee in preparation for Mr have not had an apology from him, but I think that McConnell’s visit to us. We have also had we should start. correspondence from the chief executive of Fife I want to start the meeting in a formal way. Council. He has given us his comments on the Keith, I am sorry to put you on the spot, but you McIntosh report. It is easy to read and I will also were unable to attend our first meeting, at which have that photocopied for members. we all had to declare any interests. To keep us in We said at our first meeting that we would have order, I want to ask you to do that today. a library of such documents. This stuff will come to Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) you with your mail. I will let the clerks know if I (Con): The only interest that I have to declare— receive any reports or other documents and they and I have already declared it in the “Register of will be able to tell members where to get hold of Members’ Interests”—is the fact that I am a them. councillor. We have also had a letter from the Electoral The Convener: Thank you. In a sense, today’s Reform Society, which would like to come and meeting is administrative. I hope that we are about speak to us. I imagine that we would want to to plan our programme up until as near Christmas include that in our programme. as we can. Members will see in their diaries that The Association of Directors of Social Work has we do not have a meeting next week and that it also asked to talk to us, but we must look at our will not be possible for us to visit a council, a programme to see whether that would be voluntary organisation or any part of civic Scotland appropriate, or whether we should ask it for a that we may wish to visit because there will not be written submission. I am not sure that that would a meeting of the committee of conveners before be particularly relevant to the McIntosh report. then, and they are the ones who have to allow—in inverted commas—any visits to go ahead. So we We have also heard from the Federation of will have a free day next Wednesday. Small Businesses. The business rate—if we discuss it—is the obvious subject on which we The first item on the agenda is the McIntosh would like some representation from the report and consideration of priorities for the federation, but we will decide that as we go along. committee; but before we do that, members will see—on page 2 of the covering paper LG/99/2/1— McIntosh Report an appendix that shows a possible interim programme. The Accounts Commission had been The Convener: The first item on our agenda is pencilled in for today’s meeting, but it is not the McIntosh report and the consideration of coming. Instead, it will come on 15 September— priorities for this committee. My feeling is that which is not next Wednesday but the Wednesday everything is, in a sense, up for grabs. There is after. The Minister for Finance is now coming on nothing in the McIntosh report that I think we 21 September. We will try to get Richard Kerley to should not discuss and there is nothing that we come on 29 September, which would move the should hold back on in setting out our priorities this Minister for Communities to 5 October. morning. Alternatively, we could reverse the order of those last two. My opinion is that we should invite the I am putting this to members of the committee to minister sooner rather than later. If members find out if they have any thoughts. On the day we agree, the people and the dates I mentioned can discussed the McIntosh report, we divvied up the be timetabled in. That would mean that our things that we think will go through with a deliberations on the McIntosh report would be put modicum of discussion and, I hope, a lot of back by a week. agreement. The next tranche is the subjects on which we think we need more information and on I have received some correspondence that I will which we want a bit of debate and decision-
19 1 SEPTEMBER 1999 20 making. We also need to say where we think there about the advisory panel. I understand—I hope I might be some controversy. We should start with remember yesterday’s paper correctly—that the the easier of those first. The clerk has provided a panel will get to work soon. That means that subject grid with the papers. cabinet systems will be a priority area for us. Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): This Mr Kenneth Gibson (Gla sgow) (SNP): That is may be an obvious point, but we want to fit some an important point. Last week, I pointed out that of the discussions we have about the McIntosh the Kerley committee had been appointed without report in with discussion and decisions elsewhere. the involvement of this committee and that we Some of our priorities would, presumably, be were not sure what criteria had been used for the determined by the timetables that have been put in appointment of members to that committee. We place elsewhere and by whether matters are being read in the paper that the leadership advisory progressed early. At the briefing meeting, there did panel is being chaired by Alastair MacNish— not seem to be any clear timetable for consultation another appointment that was not brought to the on some aspects of the report. The Kerley attention of the committee. committee is clearly working to a fairly strict If the Executive sets up such committees, it timetable. I hope that we will discuss what needs should consult this committee to enable us to to be discussed in time to put it before the groups assess the criteria on which people are chosen. who are progressing these issues elsewhere. We have set a timetable that will be thrown out of The Convener: Kerley must report by February kilter by the fact that, as Sylvia suggested, we will 2000. Part of the McIntosh report deals with have to liaise with the leadership advisory panel ethics. There will be an ethics bill and it might be as well. We do not want to have too many balls in introduced sooner than that, so we must be aware the air at once. We need to know exactly what is of what other committees are doing. going on so that we can feed comments back to the relevant committees. Johann Lamont: There is consultation on general competence and so on, but we have not The Convener: That is fair enough. I take the been given a timetable for that. It is important that point about finding out about developments we have our deliberations before conclusions are through the press. drawn. That may mean that we need to move Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): I am things around slightly. not good on procedure, so I would like some The Convener: Yes, that is right. We must be advice. In the Parliament, Wendy Alexander said aware of that. that she was going to produce a new paper. Will we have any input? I should have thought that we Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): I am sorry would, given the relationship between the that I was not here for the Scottish Executive Executive and the committees. Will it be normal report at the committee’s previous meeting, when practice for a minister to consult the relevant my point might have been raised. There is now an committee before producing an official response? advisory panel—I hope that that is the correct term—that will support councils in looking at Should we give evidence to bodies such as the different ways of conducting their business. There Kerley committee? It would be slightly peculiar for is also the leadership group, which will look at it to give a report to us after having heard management generally. How did the discussion at evidence from us. I have strong views on the the previous meeting go on how we relate to those subject that I am happy to give to anyone at any two groups and the Kerley commission? time. The Convener: There is a leadership forum, The Convener: I understand that the Executive there are the champions for change and—I am report, which Wendy Alexander mentioned, will be getting them all mixed up—there is Richard out sometime after mid-September. I was given no Kerley’s group. That group will examine indication that we would be involved in that but we proportional representation and councillors’ have asked the minister to speak to us around that remuneration, among other things. time. I would be surprised if the minister spoke to us about something that was not yet public, but I take your point. We can write to the Executive and 10:15 ask about the points that you have raised. We felt that we should not be doing two things at once. We should wait until the Kerley committee Richard Kerley was keen to come and tell us reports and consider the whole issue. However, I what he wanted to achieve and how he was going am not sure that we have time for that approach. to achieve it. The only group that has a deadline on it is the one Donald Gorrie: Will we produce a document that is due to report in February 2000. containing this committee’s official response? Dr Jackson: I would like to ask a little more The Convener: No. That would be in the part of
21 1 SEPTEMBER 1999 22 our report that deals with proportional according to which people are selected for such representation. We would say that we have positions. considered his recommendations and made The Convener: Absolutely. I agree with that. In decisions based on that. the meantime, I shall write to the minister and Donald Gorrie: I know that ministers are pass on these comments directly, and I shall bring worried about Cabinet confidentiality, but if we the matter up at the next conveners meeting. I do want to influence decisions we will have to take not think that I shall be the only convener to do so, part in the process at an early stage. Once the as the same issue seems to have arisen in other Government has printed a document that says, for places. instance, that all councils will sit around circular I apologise for not mentioning the panel tables, it will be hard to change its position if we membership of the advisory group that will, believe square tables are better. according to today’s press release, The Convener: I take your point. I am happy to “advise councils on the review of their decision making and write to the minister to ask for clarification, if that is policy development processes and the w orking practices what the committee wants. I will do that. which support those processes. In addition, the Panel w ill provide advice to Ministers on the outcome of the rev iew s Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and councils undertake”. Bellshill) (Lab): I return to the point that Sylvia and Kenny were discussing. We may find out The McIntosh report suggests that an about the programme that is envisaged when the independent body should do that. I understand the Minister for Communities comes to speak to us, value of that, but I take the point that the but we have agreed to invite Richard Kerley. I am committee is making—that we read about it in the flagging up the fact that we should invite someone press or find out about it second hand. I shall from the advisory panel as well, so that we can provide committee members with copies of that speak to them and find out exactly what the press release so that they can see who is on the proposals are for that panel. An appropriate time panel. The panel is quite large and wide-ranging. I might become more obvious later, but it should be do not know when it will provide some kind of as early as possible. comment. Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Mr Stone: Convener, I agree entirely with what Ea ster Ross) (LD): Convener, I would like you to you say, but I hope that, from an early point, this confirm that the last time we met you kindly committee will not be merely reactive. I fully offered to take the matter of Richard Kerley and understand why the Executive does what it does the make-up of these panels back to your and why McIntosh recommends what he conveners meeting. Can you confirm that? In our recommends, but I hope that the point will be own group there has been interest—concern might made that we are proactive. We should be able to be too strong a word—about the way such things present a paper regardless of what other groups come about. Often, as you know, we read about say. That is how I understand our remit, and I them in the press before we know about them. hope that it is the case. Have you made approaches to your fellow The Convener: Yes. conveners on that matter? Mr Gibson: If Richard Kerley is coming to see The Convener: We have not had another us early, that should be tied in not only with meeting since I spoke to you. Alastair MacNish’s committee but with the Mr Stone: I am so sorry. Electoral Reform Society. People may not know these systems inside out. McIntosh has suggested The Convener: I have noted that matter. I am that we examine specific systems, so it is very sure that I shall not be the only one to raise it at important that we know exactly what we are the next conveners meeting. Conveners will meet talking about in great detail. For example, I know only about once a month; the group met the day that Donald is an expert on the single transferable before we spoke. I have not met the other vote. It is important that we get a presentation to conveners again. explain such things in great detail, so that Johann Lamont: The specific issue of Kerley members of the committee can ask specific has been highlighted, but there is a general point questions on how such systems would work in to be made about what exactly the procedure is practice. when such committees are established. We made The Convener: A report is being prepared for the point before that the names for the committee us. I think that it would be wise to read it before of inquiry appeared before the Parliament to be anyone appears before the committee. I do not endorsed. Whatever the procedure is, it would be object to having those things happen together, or helpful if there was only one procedure and if there to having one follow the other. That is a very good was some transparency surrounding the criteria idea. They are complex systems, and if there is to
23 1 SEPTEMBER 1999 24 be a change—or no change—we must be how the system works and then move around. absolutely sure that we know what we are talking Some committees will meet once a fortnight. We about. might consider that further into the programme. We have a slot between 9.30 and 12.30 on a Mr Gibson: We all know roughly how they work, Wednesday; it is entirely up to us what we do with but it will give us an opportunity to ask specific it. We can be here, we can be outside or we can questions on the working of the system and on the decide to meet every fortnight, or whatever. We pitfalls. are not here next week, but that was in the Donald Gorrie: What I suggest may mean that programme. It is early days yet, but you are everyone is so busy talking to everyone else that absolutely right; many committees will not get nobody ever does anything, but there is an issue through their agendas and will have to pick up at a here that affects this committee. Local government later date. delivers education, social work and, to some Johann Lamont: There are so many things in extent, transport, which come under other the committee system that have to be worked committees’ remits. Has there been any through that we need to remain focused and discussion about sensible liaison so that we co- prioritise what we do. The first priority for us is to operate and do not get overburdened by examine in some detail the relationship between everybody else’s minutes or reinvent the wheel? the Scottish Parliament and local government. We The Convener: It has been recognised that the are all anxious that they fit together well, that we work of some committees, such as the Social do not end up sucking power up from local Inclusion, Housing and Voluntary Sector government, and that the relationship does not Committee, impinges on the work of every other break down. There is always a danger that the committee. I am sure that the clerks will start to committee structure is a set-up in which everybody filter things out, and we must do the same. We talks about everything all the time, but nothing have to be aware of what is happening in moves forward. Although we would like to talk education, community care and health. Some of about everything all the time, we need to be very that will come out at the conveners committee, but clear that the first stage for us has to be there will probably also be a system whereby responding to the key elements of McIntosh, as members such as I will attend other committees to has been said already. There will be highways and listen to discussion on parts of their agenda. byways, but everything we do should be focused on McIntosh. Therefore, it is important that people Donald Gorrie is absolutely right: committees should not just be here but should go out and have to work together rather than in isolation. In a about a bit—perhaps using alternate Wednesdays sense, we could be involved in housing, social to do that. inclusion, community care, health, education—the whole gamut of services that are delivered. Dr Sylvia Jackson: Donald Gorrie made a point about the different committees’ subject areas and Mr Stone: Arising from what Donald said—it is the way in which they link into local government. A something that concerns us all—the more I look at useful way in which we could look at that would be the issue of our committee work, the more the time in terms of new committee structures, or evolving element concerns me. For example, in the Rural committee structures that take on board the Affairs Committee, some of us have been talking integrated and holistic approach at council level. at length about sheep, whereas my concerns are That would link in with the approach the advisory on the tourism and financial issues that cross our panel is taking. That is important for us, but we bows. Has there been any discussion among should stay focused on the bigger picture, as conveners or with the Executive about time Johann Lamont said. management and time allocation? I suspect that that is a problem that will hit us quickly and hard. With the best will in the world, I do not know how 10:30 we can deal with McIntosh et al once a fortnight or Mr Gibson: I agree completely with Johann once every three weeks. Lamont. We must ensure that our priorities are the The Convener: The discussion at the same as those that are being identified out there in conveners committee was a first look at the the wider world, particularly by local government. timetable. Some adjustment went on. There was There is great anxiety about how McIntosh will certainly a feeling that some committees will have impact, and that is why it is very important that to meet on Monday afternoons. For example, the what Johann Lamont suggested is taken up. There Subordinate Legislation Committee, of which have been years and years of instability in local Bristow and I are members, will meet on Monday government and this is the big chance for us to set afternoons because 30 November, which is a things right. We want to do things systematically, Tuesday, is a holiday, and on another occasion not rush them, and to prioritise. We should ensure the convener will be away on a visit. We will see that our priorities are the same as those that have
25 1 SEPTEMBER 1999 26 been identified by local government. We must look is something that I have explored in the past and I at things from the outside looking in, rather than us believe that we can be proactive there. looking out. Donald Gorrie: Those are three very important The Convener: Can we move to doing that— issues that we should be pursuing vigorously. If trying to prioritise our work? Given what Johann we could also identify issues on which there is not Lamont and Kenny Gibson have said, can we look controversy but which we could try to ensure that at the grid of subjects that has been prepared for the Government pushes forward, that would be us and discuss how we would like to prioritise helpful. Also very important are the terms of the them? The clerk has prepared a list of all the covenant between the Scottish Executive and subjects that we have said we should examine at local government—that is about the relationship an early stage. and who writes it and how we progress with it. I think the three things that Kenny mentioned are Mr Gibson: Last week we had briefings from the the three most important issues but we could also, Society of Local Authority Chief Executives, the without spending too much time on them, make Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, Arthur progress with other issues. Midwinter, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all. Everyone stressed that an independent review of local Mr McMahon: It is not that I disagree, but were government finance is the number one priority. you listing those in order of preference, Kenny? Everything else is structured on that. We know the Mr Gibson: Yes—because I do not know if we Executive position on that—Jack McConnell has can do them all. We will have to touch base with made it very clear—but it would be remiss of us all those subjects, but if we are gonnae try to do it not to look at it independently, even if we cannot in a systematic way, then those would be the finally make any suggestions that are different priorities. from the Executive’s. Mr McMahon: I would not disagree on the The committee must take this subject on board importance of those three issues but suggest that, and go out and seek the views of all interested given that Kerley has a fixed time scale and that parties to see whether there is a way in which we finance might take longer to look at, we should can make local government finance more prioritise PR. autonomous. I suggest that that is an absolute No 1 priority. The second priority would be Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab): I am proportional representation, because so many concerned that we do not duplicate the work of the councils are concerned about how they will be Kerley commission and take evidence from exactly affected by it. The Kerley committee will report the same people and produce two reports. This fairly early; that is another thing that we must get a committee should take a view on what Kerley handle on. The third priority I would suggest are produces but we do not need to do that in the issues surrounding general competence. advance, we can allow Kerley to take evidence and take cognisance of the report when it is Those are the three priorities that we should produced. I share the concern expressed about look at because they are the three areas that local the commission being set up without reference to government, from trade unions right up to chief this committee. However, as it has been set up we executives and elected members, are most do not gain any advantage by duplicating work. concerned about. The Convener: That is right, Bristow, but I am The Convener: Does anyone have any thinking about what Donald said and what Kenny objection to that, or any comments to make? said about putting ourselves in their shoes. Those Mr Stone: Only to add that although I agree are the three areas we must look at—there is no entirely with what Kenny Gibson is saying, I question about that. Whether we prioritise in that wonder if he is not—understandably—zeroing in way is something we can think about. We have to on the revenues methods for councils. As a be able quite early on to tell the people who are committee, we might lose track of capital. running councils and delivering services which things they are doing that are really good and that Mr Gibson: It is all tied together. we support, and that, like them, we do not have a Mr Stone: Yes, but there are ways in which great problem with certain parts of the McIntosh rules can be changed. Section 94 on capped and report. We should do that to give confidence to current revenue is boxed into a current financial them. Our relationship must be good and we have year. With a tweaking of the rules that would not to start building it up. cost the public sector borrowing account anything I take the point about finance, PR and general at all, that could be changed to allow councils to competence—those are the big issues. I am carry over from one year to the next and therefore aware of the overlap with the Kerley commission. amass a fund for a given project. That, in my We talked about that at the beginning and it experience, would help with capital programmes. It seemed to me that what was being said was that
27 1 SEPTEMBER 1999 28 we will wait, look at the report and then we will to know whether they can get involved in the make some decisions. But Kerley has to report in legislative programme. I think that we should February 2000 and by that time, even if we speak discuss those issues and go out and talk to the only to the Electoral Reform Society, we should councils soon. have some idea about the different forms of PR Donald Gorrie: I agree with Johann that if we and how that would affect things if implemented. can persuade the Executive to conduct a proper As to a problem of separate reports, I do not see financial review that would be the best thing, so us dealing with McIntosh in that way. It is a we should try that first. If the Executive will not do package and our report has to be a package—we that, we must explore what mechanism there is should not separate off PR or finance. We may be and funds there are for us to do it. able to deal with PR alongside Kerley because, Perhaps an even more contentious issue will although we will take cognisance of what he finally arise this autumn when the Executive announces says, it will be part of a bigger report for us. its allocation of money to councils, which, Johann Lamont: There is another issue on PR. according to the comprehensive spending review, The Executive has moved on to look at alternative will mean quite a lot less money for a lot of PR systems but a significant body of opinion services so there will be a huge howl from the would prefer to look at other ways of improving councils. I have had meetings with my party involvement in local government elections without colleagues on various councils who have flagged moving to a proportional system. We have to that up as a major issue. Is this a legitimate area recognise that as a legitimate strand, particularly of our remit? Should we reflect the views of in local government, and recognise that that view councils and lobby for local government to get its is articulated fairly effectively in certain quarters fair share within the restricted budget of the and is more than just not wanting change because Scottish Executive? change is bad. Dr Sylvia Jackson: When I put my priorities On the question of finance, there are two down I was thinking on the same lines as Keith. I separate stages. There is a need for this think that councils have high expectations of the committee to engage in a discussion with the Parliament and the relationship that they can have Executive about its decision not to go out to an with it. On policy, for example, what is coming out independent inquiry, because there is no doubt about community care and how they are going to that, if we are reflecting the views that came to us reorganise themselves, there is an innovative feel in the briefing, there is a strong feeling that it ought in councils at the moment. We have to take hold of to have done. The first stage is to explore why the that and work with it, so I second what Keith is Executive took that decision and see if there is any saying and Kenny’s similar comments earlier. movement on it. We have a responsibility to reflect Mr Gibson: Am I not right in saying that the what seemed to be a remarkable consensus Executive is looking to consult on, for example, a across all the people who were briefing us that covenant with local government, which may they felt that this was a difficulty with the resolve some of those issues? It is difficult, Executive’s position. because this is like an octopus with tentacles That is the first stage. Whether or not the going in all directions and it is difficult to pin Executive maintains that position there is a everything down. separate stage about us informing ourselves about the broad finance issues that Kenny has referred Forward Plan to. Having the Minister for Finance and the minister responsible for local government coming The Convener: We need to pull together a gives us the opportunity to engage in a political programme. On finances, Johann has a point discussion with them about why that decision was about discussing with the Executive why it took its made and whether there is any movement on it. decision, given the evidence—albeit for only one We could examine the substantive finance issues day—from important people, including McIntosh after that. himself, who had contributed to the two consultation papers. Every single one of them said Mr Harding: I do not look on it, as Kenny said, the same thing; they were all singing from the from the outside into this committee. I do not think same hymn sheet. We need, therefore, to find out that proportional representation is a major issue in exactly what the Executive’s reasons were for councils. I think that we should await the outcome deciding not to have an independent review. of the report that is coming in. I agree that there is concern about finance. 10:45 A major concern of the councils is about how they are going to work with us. I think that we I have looked at the timetable, and the Minister should look into the covenant. Councils also want for Finance is due to appear before us on 21
29 1 SEPTEMBER 1999 30
September. We do not have a meeting next week, answer before the meeting takes place. but members of the Accounts Commission for I will also be attending a conveners committee Scotland will appear before us on 15 September. I and will pass on members’ comments about am sure that they will say exactly the same thing linking up with other committees. Do members as the minister. We will try to arrange for the know that the agendas of all committees are minister responsible for local government, rather available on the intranet, and that if they find than Kerley, to come here on 29 September. something of interest they can access it? They can Obviously, Jack McConnell was party to the also talk to the convener before a meeting, who decision to have a review, but it is important for us can allow them to ask questions—although I do to know why the minister responsible for local not want to find myself sitting in on every government agreed to it; we need to hear from committee just in case local government is both of them. We can then move on to other mentioned. issues relating to finance, on which we need more information—the sort of things that Jamie referred Donald Gorrie: You said you would be talking to and that we know about from councils, such as to Wendy Alexander about what interests us. I am not being able to move money around. keen, as I am sure are other members of the committee, to know why the Government is iffy on As I mentioned, the Accounts Commission for the issue of general competence. I thought that Scotland will appear before the committee on 15 that was a done deal. September. That might be the time for us to do what Donald suggested and consider those The Convener: I will mention general aspects of the McIntosh report that will not give us competence and finance. Obviously, if we have problems. That will allow us to make a statement the minister before us, those questions can be put at the end of the meeting on matters that we do directly and expanded on. What about proportional not intend to discuss in depth, unless they throw representation? I wrote down finance, PR and up difficulties at a later stage. I am asking general competence, because that is how you members to do some homework and to decide presented it. Do you want to examine PR? what parts of the report are fine as they stand; there are two or three, but not many. Mr Gibson: We should get the Electoral Reform Society here to tell us about all the systems so Mr Gibson: When this subject came up last that we understand the fundamentals. We can week, I suggested that we go through the report spend a morning firing as many questions as we as a committee, rather than independently; want so that we all know in our mind’s eye exactly Bristow suggested much the same thing. It would how the systems work, before moving on to the be a bit of a plod, but it would avoid all sorts of next stage. As Johann said, it is important that we cross-talk. We could go through the paragraphs of do not ignore the current system. Although the report systematically and decide what we McIntosh recommended that we move to PR, at agreed on and what was contentious. We would the end of the day we should still compare it to the then know exactly what points needed to be existing system. discussed. The Convener: Do you want someone else to The Convener: At the back of the report there come along and give the other side of the story? are recommendations, with the relevant paragraph highlighted. If, when we are considering Mr Gibson: As long as it is not Charlie Gordon. recommendations one by one, we find problems, The Convener: Okay, on the proviso that it will we can refer back to the paragraph. The clerk not be Charlie Gordon. informs me that the Accounts Commission will probably want to speak for 45 minutes to an hour. Mr Gibson: In the interests of fairness that With questions, we are likely to need an hour and would be appropriate. a half. That should give us time at the end of the Johann Lamont: It would be interesting to invite meeting to start examining the report. If we run out someone who was able to put the debate on PR of time, we can continue with it at the end of into a political context. In an ideal world we would another meeting. examine the different systems and choose the one The Minister for Finance is to appear before us that we liked. However, we are working within the on 21 September. On 29 September we will try to context of people being disaffected with politics arrange for the minister for local government to and not being involved in it. come. Two general questions will be discussed at There are also concerns over how many that meeting: finance, and the issue that has been electoral systems we can legitimately use at raised this morning—the setting up of a panel different levels of government. It would be without our being informed or providing input. In interesting to invite someone, if there is such a the meantime, I will write to make known the mood person, who is relaxed about which system we will of the committee on that matter; we may have an use, but who will be able to highlight the difficulties
31 1 SEPTEMBER 1999 32 arising from having different PR systems for many constituencies in this Parliament. Europe, Westminster, ourselves and local However, my second point is that I have concern government, and who could tell us whether there about increasing democracy at a time when there are options for having different systems across the are very low and sometimes declining turnouts. country. We are also talking about community This is not just about being politically correct—we councils. Whether there is such a person, who have to get the young linked in. It worries me a lot almost has an academic interest in this issue and that the young are even less interested in turning who can highlight those types of issues to us, I do up for local elections than their parents. We should not know. This is not simply a straight choice concentrate on what Bristow is saying about trying between ideal electoral systems; it is also about to get folk out. We have to get away from 35, 28, getting systems to cohere. and 45 per cent turnouts, which is not democracy The Convener: McIntosh suggests that there in any shape or form. should be a different system in the Highlands, Mr Gibson: The people of East Timor, under the does he not? guns of the Indonesian army, put us all to shame Mr Gibson: That is exactly what I said in the with their 90-odd per cent turnout. briefing last week. In fact, I mentioned Johann’s The Convener: It does put us to shame. home island of Tiree. It is important that we are not looking for a single system that necessarily fits We want to look, quite rightly, at a much broader the whole of Scotland, because it may be that a picture. There are recommendations in the single system is not suitable. I would be surprised McIntosh report about how we encourage people if the system that suited Glasgow also suited the to vote. When we go through the list the next time, Highlands or Argyll, for historic reasons. it may be something on which we all agree. We might even wish to add something to it if we have We mentioned independents. We do not want to any ideas. have millions of people presenting to the committee, but we do need someone to present Given what you are saying about PR, however, that rural, independent perspective. When people can I take it that you want to spend the whole of think of PR they always think about the west of one committee session on PR? Do you want to Scotland. In our debate on McIntosh, Brian Adam hear from the Electoral Reform Society, from from our party spoke on the topic, because he is someone who is against PR and has good reason from Aberdeen and the issue is seen as a west of for it, and from someone with a political overview Scotland issue. It is important that we do not forget of the whole thing? Do we want that in the one about places like the Borders, the Highlands, session, or would you find that too much? Do you Argyll and Galloway. want it split between two sessions? Bristow Muldoon: I do not disagree with the Mr Gibson: All together. comments that have been made about the way in The Convener: We are starting at 10 am at the which members want to address this issue, but we moment and finishing at half-past 12. Everything is should broaden it, so that we do not talk just about the electoral system, but about the ways of falling forward, so 5 October is a day on which we could fit that in, before we have—excuse me—yet maximising participation in local government another holiday. elections, because that part of the debate is often forgotten. Increasing participation does not Mr Gibson: Allegedly. depend solely on the electoral system that we use. We must examine other ways in which we can Johann Lamont: Will we be meeting on a improve participation in local government Tuesday, or will it always be a Wednesday? elections, and in that way renew democracy in The Convener: Good question. There will be local government. I would like us to examine that the odd afternoon—or evening—session on a strand as well as the electoral system. Tuesday, from 4.15 pm to 6.15 pm. I have The Convener: McIntosh provides some managed to get the other committees on that suggestions on that matter. When we study the group to rotate, so it will not always be 4.15 pm to recommendations we can determine whether we 6.15 pm. It will only happen every so often. want to examine that matter. Donald Gorrie: On the question of PR, it may Mr Gibson: I do not think we need to do that. It be that it would cost too much, but the people in is all laid out in McIntosh and I think we will be in Britain who have most experience of different agreement with all its recommendations. systems of PR are the Northern Irish. We could get someone who is Northern Irish and had Mr Stone: Obviously, as the Highlander here I experienced PR, or who had studied it. We may welcome what Kenny said. Taking off my Liberal not be able to afford the air fare. Democrat hat for a minute, it is a concern in the Highlands, where some wards are bigger than
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The Convener: If they are living here they might We now come to 5 October on the possible come. interim programme. Do members wish to hear from Richard Kerley then? That is perhaps not the Mr Gibson: We could invite Ian Paisley. He was best idea: I think that on 5 October we should elected under the system. examine proportional representation, then we will The Convener: I will pass on that one. have Richard Kerley in to brief us. By that time, we will understand the system and have a broader Dr Sylvia Jackson: Like Johann, I recommend picture. Doing that would give the clerks time to that we ask an academic who has as much organise for Professor Curtice, representatives of knowledge about international systems. the Electoral Reform Society and others speaking Mr Gibson: I suggest John Curtice. to us. The Convener: Yes, I was thinking that. We will If I have got this right, we will have the Accounts try to get Professor John Curtice. Commission on 15 September; the Minister for Finance on 21 September; the Minister for The other priority is the power of general Communities on 29 September, I hope; and we competence. How do we want to deal with that? will discuss PR on 5 October. Do we want to find out what councils are saying about it first? Do we go that way or another way? We will have the Kerley briefing after we have our alleged holiday. I had better not say holiday— Mr Gibson: We know fairly well what people are rather industrial break or something. saying about the power of general competence, but we need to know why the Executive is Bristow Muldoon: My understanding, from concerned about it. I have looked at the matter what we were saying earlier, is that the Accounts and I cannot see why it causes any difficulty for Commission is not likely to take up the whole anybody. It would be a great boon to local meeting on 15 September. Is that the case? government, which is why all areas of local The Convener: It would not take up the whole government appear to be in favour of it. That is meeting. We will cover the McIntosh another area of finance on which we might want recommendations in the last part of the meeting. the Executive to explain its concerns. It has said We will be able to refer back to the appropriate that it wants to consult widely on it, but I paragraphs if we have any problems. We can then understand that the consultation is fairly set. I do put our message to the councils that we are aware not know anybody—from trade unions to of or agree with what they raise and are getting SOLACE—who objects to the power of general down to the nitty-gritty . competence. How much more of the timetable do members The Convener: When you say the Executive, do wish to do? We have someone in for 5 October you mean that we ask Wendy Alexander when she and the first meeting of the committee after the attends the meeting? Finance and general break is on 27 October. competence are the two main things that we would like her to discuss with us. Mr Gibson: We want to be fairly flexible, but we also want to make it known that we wish to examine all other controversial aspects. I see no 11:00 reason why we cannot put down a marker for the Donald Gorrie: I wonder whether it would be other topics to be discussed between now and possible to find somebody who knows a lot about December, so that we know that every topic will be European local government, who could inform us covered before Christmas. of the real benefits. Keith made some comments about local The Convener: Neil McIntosh certainly went government being anxious about how we would across to Europe. There is nothing to stop us interact with it on local government legislation. We pulling him back in—I do not know. might wish to do that immediately after the recess: Johann Lamont: I thought that the case was that would take us away from concentrating made very generally at the briefing. The exclusively on the McIntosh report—although the representatives of the Executive were not able to McIntosh report touches on local government give a response on what was creating the unease legislation. and what the timetable for consultation was. Once The Convener: Are you looking at the we know what the difficulties are we might want to document with the grid of subjects and priorities? address those difficulties and bring people before us on that basis. There is a broad sweep of folk in Bristow Muldoon: Yes. favour of that. The Convener: If there is no disagreement, we The Convener: That is the other question for will examine on Wednesday 27 September the the minister. items on the grid that we have not dealt with.
35 1 SEPTEMBER 1999 36
Donald Gorrie: I am not clear who writes the on this matter, although I totally support your point covenant—obviously we have to agree in the end about getting beyond councils and councillors. We and we need to start somewhere. Is there merit in could talk to associations of, or a given grouping suggesting to COSLA that it could draft what it of, community councils. It would be no bad thing to thinks the covenant should contain, with a view to talk to tenants’ associations where they exist in discussing it with us at the end of October or some of the more built up areas—even in November or whenever? I am not sure whether Highland. However, I think that we will need to ask drafting the covenant is our responsibility or the for advice, as there will be groups that may not Executive’s responsibility, or whose responsibility instantly come to mind that would be just as it is. relevant—such as playgroups, school boards and so on. We will have to be careful not to get bogged The Convener: If my memory serves me right, down, and we will have to try to group them local government, the Scottish Executive and together where we can. If we go into too much COSLA are to be involved in drafting the detail, we will be out on visits for months and covenant. There is nothing to stop us making an months on end—I could be in Glasgow for months. input as that can be done through me. The Executive has made it clear to me, as it has to Mr Gibson: Perhaps we could learn from the other committee conveners, that I can make McIntosh commission’s experience. The last thing contacts, pass issues on and make comments we want to do is end up in greeting meetings in whenever I wish. There is nothing to stop us which people make specific criticisms and which having a view on how the covenant should come are of no real interest to us. At the same time, together. Jamie is absolutely right—we want to talk to the voluntary sector and to people who use the Donald Gorrie: Could we invite COSLA to write services, as well as to the establishment. The a draft? McIntosh commission might be able to tell us how The Convener: COSLA will be writing a draft, it set out its stall. as that was the suggestion in the McIntosh report. The Convener: Yes—and the commission was There is no problem with us asking for sight of the a small group. draft when it is completed. Bristow Muldoon: Kenny nicked half of what I We now come to November. I have reservations was going to say, because I was going to about listening to the experts—that is, people who advocate that we took a similar approach to that put themselves up as experts—and we need to used by the McIntosh commission when it took give serious consideration to speaking to councils evidence. When the commission went out to a and to people who use council services. We local authority area, it spoke to the local authority cannot consider this report properly if we deal only directly, but it also structured the day so that with councils and councillors. The report is about evidence was taken from groups in the how services are delivered at the point of need, community. It also publicised meetings that were and that is where we need to go. open to the public, so that people could discuss Mr Gibson: May I suggest that, if we do go out, the proposals. It would be a good idea to get a we go to areas where we have least knowledge? broad perspective on people’s views of how we You and I have both been councillors on Glasgow should progress local government and the City Council and Strathclyde Regional Council. It McIntosh recommendations. might be beneficial for someone like me to go to If we are planning to visit particular areas, it the Highlands or to the Borders, and for someone might be sensible for the committee to split into like Jamie to look at the urban context, so that we groups. The group that visits the particular area gain experience of all parts of the country. That could spend a whole day there and speak to a would give us all a better feel for local government range of individuals and groups in the community. and delivery of services in other parts of Scotland. Before we do that, we need to form a clear idea of The Convener: I agree. It would be better for us the questions that we will ask, rather than going to widen our knowledge base, and that would be a out with a blank piece of paper. We must develop good way in which to do it. I do not want to listen some sort of structure, or the feedback will be to the councillors in Glasgow City Council yet useless. again. I would be quite happy to move around. I The Convener: That is how I would envisage hope that that was not recorded—Charlie Gordon organising such visits. For example, if three will kill me. members—say Kenny, Gil and Bristow—were Do members have any ideas about the going out next week to visit a particular council, suggestion that we go out on visits, or do they they would ask other committee members to let wish to think about it? them know the issues that they wanted them to find out about. Mr Stone: I think that we will need a little advice
37 1 SEPTEMBER 1999 38
Going out for a day is a good idea, but it is meetings, so he has passed me a note to say that probably not practical unless we are prepared to we could produce some proposals for the next do so on a Monday or a Friday. It will be almost meeting. That is a good idea. Please feel free to impossible to organise such visits on other days speak up, Eugene, rather than whispering and unless members happen not to have a committee passing notes. to attend. For example, Bristow and I seem to be It would be a good idea if the clerks made some on the same committees and it might be possible proposals. You are right, Donald, we will want to for us to go on a Tuesday. ask some questions. I want councils to tell me Visiting in small groups was the option that the which things work and which things do not. That is conveners decided upon. It would be rare for a not an easy question to answer but is the kind of whole committee to go on a visit, because of the question that we would want to ask. cost implications; costs would be incurred not only for committee members, but for official reporters 11:15 and clerks. Dr Sylvia Jackson: We should contact Neil We also have to get permission from the McIntosh or somebody who was involved in the conveners committee. Some committees are committee and ask what parts of the consultation asking for permission now, but we will be doing process worked and what did not. The point was that—if we do it—in November or December. made before: we do not want to repeat what has Mr Gibson: One of the reasons for the success already been done but we want to learn from it. No of the McIntosh report was that the questions were doubt members of the McIntosh commission feel sent out a couple of weeks in advance of visits. that some things could have been done better. People knew what they were going to be asked The Convener: When he was summing up, Neil and had time to consult their colleagues and put said that it was important to get out and listen to together a collective view. The visitors did not get people, so it would be fair to ask him what the the opinions of just one or two individuals who most efficient way to do that would be. The clerks they met on the day, which could have produced a or I will speak to him about that. distorted picture. Do we want to sort out the programme until Members of the McIntosh commission tended to Christmas? visit in groups of two or three. A group of three would be quite good, because three different Mr Gibson: You are the boss. parties could be involved. There are 32 councils, The Convener: I am not the boss; I just keep including Orkney Islands, Shetland Islands and you all in line. Western Isles, and we would want to cover as wide a range of local authorities—and as wide a Johann Lamont: There is an argument for group within that range—as possible. keeping our agenda flexible as issues will emerge from the initial stages of the process, particularly The Convener: That would be a good way of from the discussion with the Executive and we working. If a group of members planned to visit a might want to change our priorities. While it would particular area, it would be incumbent on group be useful to have a programme to work to, the members to speak to other committee m embers to danger is that we might have no room to ascertain what they want to find out about that manoeuvre if we have invited people to come and area. The responsibility would be on members to talk to us. work together to send questions out in advance. The clerks would ensure that that was done. The Convener: That is a fair comment. We have planned up until the week after the recess. Donald Gorrie: We could devise a standard list After that, we might want to go down a road that of questions as a starting point, for example to find we had not considered before. out the main problems in the area. It would help if people received the questions in advance. Dr Jackson: We might need discussion time or a breathing space in between visits from people. We should start by visiting councils. I accept the We have rather a lot of people coming and talking point that we would then want to speak to real and we might want to talk as well. people—as opposed to people in the councils— but finding out what the councils are thinking and The Convener: I will try to have a space at the what would satisfy them should be high on our end of every agenda to allow us to throw issues priorities. We could start there and then have a about and discuss things in general. second round of visits to voluntary organisations, Donald Gorrie: I do not know how the system local communities and so on. works but it would be useful to book a weekly slot The Convener: The clerk has not yet got used without saying what we are going to do. If the to the fact that he can speak up during our Executive sets up a financial inquiry, that is fine,
39 1 SEPTEMBER 1999 40 but if it does not, instituting an inquiry would be a The Convener: All the papers will come out major task and would take several weeks. together—we will have one from Neil McIntosh and one from Arthur Midwinter as well. The Convener: And a lot of discussion among us. We will meet the week after next. In the meantime, I will do all the things that you have told Is there any other business? me to do—I hope. Mr Gibson: When will we receive the briefing Meeting closed at 11:19. papers for last week? Eugene Windsor (Committee Clerk): Matt Smith, of Unison, and George Thorley, of South Ayrshire Council, informed me that we will have them as soon as possible.
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