![Attendees: 1 Palestinian 2 • Dr. Mohammad Shtayyeh [MS] 3 •](http://data.docslib.org/img/fae894f189441744b3efce0ea1c5a02d-1.webp)
Minutes from Expert Committee on Infrastructures 19 March 2008 at 4:30 pm – Second Meeting King David, West Jerusalem
1 Attendees:
2 Palestinian
3 • Dr. Mohammad Shtayyeh [MS]
4 • NSU: Gabriel Fahel, Enas Abu-Laban, Bader Rock
5 Israeli
6 • Hezi Kugler [HK] Director General, Min. of National Infrastructures (MONI)
7 • Yinon Zribi, Senior Advisor to Director General of MONI
8 • Kameel Abu-Rukun, Consultant (former CAC/Private Consultant)
9 • Nofia Bachar, Economics Advisor (arrived 16:45)
10
11 Linkages to Other Committees
12 • Water:
13 • Economics:
14 • State-to-State:
15 • Borders:
16 • Jerusalem:
17 • Security: 2
1 Meeting Minutes:
2 MS: I want to wish you a happy Purim and hopefully next Eid there will be peace.
3
4 HK: Thank you. I understand from Kameel that I am to wish you happy holiday for
5 tomorrow. I will let him say the proper thing.
6
7 Kameel: Kul sana umtu kheir.
8
9 MS: Thank you, yes – we celebrate the killing of Jesus Christ next week and the
10 birth of the Prophet tomorrow.
11
12 HK: I reported to the heads of our team and they said that we made too much
13 progress too fast. I asked them if they need advice on how to speed things along that I
14 would be happy to help them out. The manner in which we decided things makes sense
15 and since no complaints have been made to my Minister, I think I am okay. We can go
16 over the issues we want to see in this committee and I am happy to listen to other
17 matters you think should be on the infrastructures committee. We see power/energy and
18 waste water under this committee. What other issues you think should be included we
19 will raise it with our team and then we can discuss them here. But, of course not
20 matters of security or state-to-state.
21
22 What was interesting from our last discussion is the connection or links to
23 infrastructure. There is a certain feeling on our side that it could be beneficial to
24 reduce the links to achieve greater things. We would be happy to cooperate, but
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1 personally I don’t think this will work – I don’t think we can achieve this separation of
2 the West Bank and Gaza. Maybe we can raise it to a higher level to see if this is a
3 principle that can be agreed upon.
4
5 We don’t think infrastructure issues have to be linked. But if you think it is important
6 for your state building, you will have a sympathetic ear.
7
8 In the energy sector we already have close cooperation in infrastructure. It would go
9 against the logic if the power grids and waste water are dealt with together, but to the
10 extent that it can be linked we are happy to discuss.
11
12 We see this committee covering the following:
13 - Electricity
14 - Natural Gas
15 - Supplies of fuels such as oil, propane gas (LPG)
16 - Waste water/sewage
17
18 We can hear from you on transportation, telecommunications, health, education. We
19 can listen, but we can’t commit.
20
21 MS: I am also happy to convey that are meeting was received positively on our end.
22 I have many people to report (Abu Ala’a, Saeb Erekat and others), not just one
23 Minister, and the meeting was received positively and that we are going in the right
24 direction. I am happy to receive your input so that we have a common understanding
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1 that we are heading in the right direction. We had the chance to see some of the
2 overlapping issues in the committees and we may have to look to see what to do with
3 those issues. We looked at all of the infrastructure issues for our inventory list and
4 some have territorial, security and other dimensions, but they are infrastructure matters.
5 For example, airports. It will have security, territory, Jerusalem dimensions but we look
6 at it as an aviation issue.
7
8 For example, sea ports. There is an agreement, there is money, and there are security
9 arrangements. But it is an infrastructure issue.
10
11 Railways.
12 Roads. All roads in the past went North-South. Then historically they went East-West
13 after the green line. In 1948, Hebron – Jenin was one single road. Since 1967 it is
14 East-West now. My main concern, however, is transportation for services of trade and
15 cooperation.
16
17 There are some aspects that have to be independent, and some that need cooperation,
18 and we had to look for those that need a form of cooperation. The way we see roads
19 and rail is primarily the linkage between the West Bank and Gaza – we see an
20 infrastructure linkage. It may have other dimensions but we need to look at it as an
21 infrastructure link. When Wolfenson was here there was a study done on a sunken
22 corridor, for example. Whether it is water infrastructure link… Gaza needs 55 million
23 cubic metres of water and is only receiving 20 million. If have to consider whether we
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1 need a rail link like the Rand’s Arc project. We have to look at what sort of
2 infrastructure is needed so we can mobilize our resources accordingly.
3
4 Telecom: We understand that in Israel it is under the domain of the army, but we will
5 need to address it here.
6
7 Gas, fuels, electricity, renewables as well.
8
9 As long as we are dealing with final status issues, we need to deal with settlements.
10 During the Gaza withdrawal, I was Minister of Housing and we call for the destruction
11 of settlement infrastructure. We will have to deal with green houses, factories, houses,
12 etc. This will all be under infrastructure.
13
14 Crossings: Damya bridge, for example. It needs to be developed. When I was Minister,
15 the Erez crossing needed similar handling and infrastructure on both sides. We
16 received $20 million from USAID to deal with this.
17
18 Regional infrastructure projects: The Red-Dead canal. There was a French study that
19 addressed air and sea ports for European-Mediterranean partnerships and they wanted
20 an East-West corridor from Jerusalem-Amman-Baghdad and North-South Corridor
21 Turkey-Syria-Palestine-Egypt. There are regional ideas that we need to respond to.
22 The West Ghor canal, which will likely be similar to the East Ghor canal in Jordan.
23
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1 These are the general issues that are of interest to our work on this committee. One
2 more issue. We hear from the Israelis that the wall will not be permanent.
3
4 HK: There are only three things that are permanent: Jerusalem, God and President
5 Peres.
6
7 MS: Yes, the rubble from the destruction of the wall, we need to deal with it and see
8 if can be used.
9
10 One important part is overlapping is water networks. I’m not talking about water rights
11 or sources of water – that will be left to the water committee to deal with those
12 principles. I am referring to water networks and their infrastructure.
13
14 Also, at a certain point in time, if there is a committee that will deal with compensation,
15 we will have to put compensation issues that concern infrastructure on this table.
16
17 We are open to discuss all of these issues one-by-one or in any order you see fit to
18 proceed.
19
20 HK: This was a very good overview. There is one common thread that I think can be
21 made – trade and economic relations. You have the benefit to plan your infrastructure
22 in advance to deal with that. You have an advantage over us – we have to respond to
23 each time something comes up.
24
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1 Perhaps you want to build your infrastructure -- such roads – if you see a lo of trade
2 with us you will use our ports. And will plan and create roads in certain directions.
3 Depending on what you would like, I can raise it with our team and see what planning
4 is required to meet your needs. We are flexible and need to see what links are needed
5 with our infrastructure.
6
7 Ports, airports and frequencies are security.
8
9 Water we are not talking about here. But there are other elements we can discuss here.
10
11 We should try to determine agendas for each meeting. But first we need to discuss
12 visions for the future. With respect to – for example – waste water, it is an area under
13 our jurisdiction and we can look at it in a more localized manner. There are obviously
14 areas that will overlap.
15
16 The corridor is not in our committee. The same is true for the security fence… if it
17 ever comes down, I’m not too concerned with what happens with it here.
18
19 Maybe I can suggest an agenda for next meeting. An economic and trade agenda for
20 next meeting or should we figure out what subjects that are not under power or waste
21 water.
22
23 We can discuss your vision for the power sector. What are your needs. Where do you
24 see your supply coming from: Israel, Jordan, Egypt? For example, for electricity
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1 networks you will see in Israel arrows going into the West Bank and into neighbouring
2 countries to develop network. We need to hear your view to see for planning purposes.
3 Even natural gas. Do you see it coming from Gaza, Jordan? Whatever you decide, we
4 need to know for planning.
5
6 You mentioned renewables, I recommend that there be cooperation, even during and
7 after your path to independence. We have expertise and we can both benefit and makes
8 a lot of sense. Any facility on either side of the border should be linked to both
9 networks.
10
11 One other thing: LPG…. ah, no… when we get to that, we have something we would
12 like to share with you as an idea.
13
14 When it comes to waster water, it is complicated. I’m not just talking about collection
15 and treatment. If we do something on our side that has more of an environmental
16 impact than what you do – you will suffer. We need to talk about that.
17
18 Recycling impact: we need to have the same policy on pollution. … Is there an
19 environment committee? [answered from MS and Ynonin that there is]
20
21 Then we should definitely talk about it here so they don’t tell us what to do.
22
23 Liability – we need to create some work for the lawyers. We need to address issues of
24 liability.
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1
2 MS: I would like to reflect on a few points. The list we mentioned, we tried to look
3 at a map of infrastructure that will serve an independent Palestinian state. We asked
4 ourselves what is necessary? That is why we created this list. Some of these are
5 aspects that are needed to build the state, others simply require cooperation after the
6 state is built. We don’t need a divorce if we can make it a healthy relationship rather
7 than a colonial one.
8
9 Infrastructure link of the West Bank and Gaza allows me to think about how to plan my
10 infrastructure needs for where and what I need that is related to infrastructure.
11
12 Our starting point is very macro and we need to accommodate your micro with our
13 macro. Both are important, but the macro frame is the one in which we will need to
14 operate. For example: natural gas in Gaza. How do we transfer it to the West Bank?
15 The seaport in Gaza: If you tell me this is a territory issue then let us discuss what
16 infrastructure we can conclude and we can provide input into that committee. The other
17 important aspect is security. I know the story of the sea port. It will take 3 – 4 years to
18 construct. Let us construct. There is a new reality in Gaza – Hamas – hopefully it will
19 end soon. But a security protocol does not take long to conclude – infrastructure does.
20 And we can ask other committees to start so that we can make serious progress on
21 tangible issues.
22
23 HK: First, let us approach this from a professional context. Forget the political
24 context. When you plan for infrastructure. I don’t think there is that much need or
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1 relevance [for politics]. For example, for electricity politics is irrelevant. I am
2 interested to see your vision for it. We can focus on the power sector and how you
3 want to develop it.
4
5 There are certainly a number of elements in transportation. Perhaps your vision
6 includes utilizing Gaza, but your vision of developing your economy in the West Bank
7 may not have anything to do with Gaza. For example, if you want to be closely linked
8 with Jordan, it may not make a difference. But we need to integrate it. But frankly, we
9 cannot discuss this issue here and you need to think about that. This is not the right
10 forum.
11
12 Perhaps as time goes on, things will change and we can re-visit it. I’m not putting any
13 brakes on what you want to raise, but we have to be able to talk about it too. We have
14 one joint thing in common and that is we agree that infrastructure takes a long time.
15 Perhaps we can discuss timetables?
16
17 MS: I’m not sure about this forum for discussing visions. I thought Abu Mazen and
18 Olmert are discussing vision. We can brief you on the way we see things. We are not
19 settling yet on the way we see things in this room. At the end of the day, I want people
20 in the other rooms to tell me what our shared frame is to make our lives easier.
21 Otherwise, we are in a desert for what we want to plan.
22
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1 We can brief you on our vision. Either we look at where infrastructure is going to be or
2 we need a frame, or we draw a very general sketch or on how we can cooperate. The
3 third dimension is what you prefer: fuel for electricity, etc.
4
5 I think what would make our life easier is having a frame. What are we going to sign
6 on in a 600 page agreement? 32 pages will be on infrastructure and these will come
7 after we know the frame. For example, even if you want to address electricity: JEDCO.
8 The electricity aspect will take us to Jerusalem (that someone is trying to avoid at this
9 stage).
10
11 Either we accelerate this chapter knowing that this is what is needed for a Palestinian
12 state or we wait for the frame to be in place. We can be brief. Your questions are
13 legitimate. The price of electricity in the West Bank are the highest in the world…
14
15 [HK looking confused. Ynonin Zribi explained that the prices include the distribution
16 costs]
17
18 MS: … and our GDP income is much less. The same is true for water. Usually a
19 smaller economy benefits from a larger economy… so, we want to break from
20 dependence; we have lost the Arab markets while under occupation. Maybe we can
21 benefit from Arab networks and will be able to get cheaper energy. And, if I commit, it
22 will depend on my connection with you. For example, how will I provide water to Gaza
23 How do I link it? To provide answers, this is not a territorial issue, but essential
24 infrastructure planning and someone has to tell us…
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1
2 HK: Providing Gaza with water and power is not difficult. They need to stop the
3 rockets.
4
5 MS: Even desalination is possible, but they cannot afford it. One third of the water
6 going into Israeli kitchens is from West Bank reservoirs. If we can link Gaza to the
7 West Bank, then we don’t go into desalination.
8
9 HK: That is an interesting approach; and we will leave that to Prof. Ury to deal with.
10 But for Israel, it is the most cost efficient technology [desalination] and we have some
11 conditions. If it is not feasible enough – that is the role of the international community
12 and that is an area we would cooperate.
13
14 Let me clarify: We are not starting bottom-up. I didn’t mean that. And I didn’t mean to
15 discuss very general directions of thought on the economy. What I am asking is how
16 do you see your economy and then plan for it. Some of the issues you were raising will
17 not be discussed here. We are in final status negotiations and all issues need to be
18 settled – just not here.
19
20 I’m a fan of modeling. Give me a model or vision and we can then make assumptions.
21 If you say you have a link, then we can deal with the assumptions. But your planning
22 may need more political than economic assumptions. I have no objections in gauging
23 where your vision is going in parallel and we can integrate it into our discussions. I
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1 personally don’t believe in operating against the basic nature of the subject – where we
2 have overlap [with other committees], we will discuss.
3
4 MS: Why don’t we prepare a comprehensive list of all the infrastructure issues with
5 the different dimensions:
6 1. Infrastructure with a security dimension
7 2. Infrastructure with a territory dimension
8 3. Purely infrastructure
9 I don’t know if there is another dimension. We can discuss the last one first and then
10 we can address the others as the political, security, territory issues are resolved or in
11 whatever order is comfortable. And we can ask our superiors to send people to provide
12 directions as needed or we can send the issue to another committee to be addressed.
13
14 At the end of the day either we recommend to other committees to give our issue a
15 priority or ask them to join us in our committee. If we want to proceed, then we must
16 ask our colleagues to conclude. Everything has a security dimension – maybe we can
17 help them.
18
19 HK: I think your suggestion is useful and we can deal with #3 and minimize #1 and
20 #2. I will raise this with our side and have an answer for you at our next meeting.
21
22 We are reaching a conclusion. Perhaps we can discuss what we should raise next
23 meeting? I will come back with an answer on your suggestions but can you also give a
24 general overview of what your economy will look like for infrastructure?
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1
2 MS: What I suggest – this is not just related to infrastructure – but state-to-state and
3 economics. Maybe we need a meeting of the three committees (as a suggestion off he
4 top of my mind). It is important that your colleagues understand too.
5
6 HK: Yes, but I can probably do my own filtering for the rest of our team. I can focus
7 on energy economy…
8
9 MS: You are speaking from the perspective of an independent state of Israel. This
10 will reflect on what relationship I will have with you: a customs envelope, free trade,
11 and so on. The trade regime must be in place before I engage. I am not he one who
12 decides this.
13
14 HK: On second thought, I think I am going to raise the suggestion of a joint
15 committees meeting, but I think that will come later (not now). We need some
16 discussions on our issues first.
17
18 MS: Yossi Gal and Ghassan Khatib, in this committee, if they are asked, “what is
19 your vision?” and the Minister of Finance asks Samir Hulelieh the same question… it is
20 100% an economics question. Why am I briefing you? To see where we are heading?
21
22 HK: It is even more than that. You are moving towards an independent state and we
23 need to know what we should do, and therefore we need to know what you would like
24 so we can deal with that.
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1 [Discussion about next meeting time]
2
3 END TIME: 6:00 pm
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