REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, November 18, 1975, at 10.30 a.m.

Present: The Governor (Sir John Paul, PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT G.C.M.G., O.B.E., M.C.). In the Council: The Governor: Item rtwo, I call upon The Lord Bifihop (the Rt. Rev. Vernon the Clerk to lay papers. Nicholls), the Attorney General (Mr. The Clerk: I lay before the Court:— J. W. Corrin), Messrs. J. B. Bolton, O.B.E., G. T. Crellin, E. N. Crowe, Pensions Increase—Pensions Increass O.B.E., R. E. S. Kerruish, G. V. H. (Annual Review) Order 1975. K nea’e, J. C. Nivison, W. E. Quayle, A udit Act 1886 — A ppointm ent of A. H. Simcocks, M.B.E., with Mr. P. J. Public Auditors — Finance Board Hulme, Clerk of the Council. In the Memorandum. Keys: The Speaker (Mr. H. iC. Ker- British Nationality (Fees) Act 1949 ruiish, O.B.E.), M essrs. H. D. C. Mac­ —British Nationality (Fees) Regula­ Leod, G. M. Kermeen. J. C. Clucas, P. tions 1975 (dated 20th October 1975). Radcliffe, Miss J. C. C. T hom ton- Duesbery. Messrs. J. R. Creer, E. Weights and Measures Act 1971 ■— Ran son, P. A. Spittall, T. C. Faragher, Weights 'and Measures (Marking of N. Q. Cringle, Mrs. E. C. Quayle, Goods and Abbreviations of Units) Mersrs. W. A. Moore, J. J. Bell, E. M. Regulations 1975. W eights and Mea­ Wiard, B.E.M., E. C. Irving, Miss K. E. sures (Testing and Adjustment Fees) Cowin, Mr. G. A. Devereau, Mrs. B. Q. Regulations 1975. Hlanson, Messrs. R. MacDonald, P. G. Po’ice (Isle of Man) Act 1962—Isle Hislop, Sir Henry Suffden, K.B.E., C.B., of Mian Police (Am endm ent) (No. 3) D.S.O., wiith Mr. T. E. Kermeen, Clerk Regulations 1975. Isle of Man- Police of Tynwald. (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 1975. Value Added Tax—Value Added Tax (Ilsle of Mian) (T reatm ent of T rans­ APOLOGY FOR ABSENCE actions) O rder 1975. Tlie Governor: I have apologies for Accounts — Audited Accounts of the absence from the hon. member for Government Treasurer for the year Glenflaba, Mr. Anderson, who is unwell. ended 31st March 1974. (It is impractic­ able to furnish each Member of Tynwald1 with a copy of this document BILLS FOR SIGNATURE and it is available for perusal in the office of the Clerk oif Tynwald). State­ The Governor: Item one on the ment of Accounts of the Isle of Man Agenda. We have the following Balls' Post Office A uthority for the year for signature—Fertilisers and Feeding ended 31st March 1975. Stuffs Bill; Pensions (Supplementary Increase) Bill; Customs and Excise Annual Reports — Report of the Acts (Arpp’ication) Bill and I propose Employment Advisory Committee for that we should continue our business the year ended 31st March 1975. Tenith while these are being signed. Is that Annual Report of the Road Traffic agreed? Commissioners for the year ended 31st M arch 1975. Seventh and Eighth It was agreed. Annual Report of the Isle' of Man Criminal Injuries Compensation Tri­

Apology for Absence.—Bills for Signature.—Papers laid before the Court. riso TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

bunal in respect of the years ended are not received until December in 31st M arch 1974 and 1975. Twenity- each year and it is therefore impossible sixith Annual Report of the Isle of Man to give an exact reply to Mr. Speaker’s Water Board for the year ended 31st question. Additionally, ithe income M arch 1973. T h ird A nnual R eport of under the National Health Service the Consumer Council for the year Contribution Act of 1971 is not yet ended 31st March 1975 together with finalised. At the present time the Report of the Chief Inspector of amount we anticipate we shall receive Weights iand Measures for the year for Customs and Excise, based on ended 31stt M arch 1975. recent estimates, is £9,190,000 com­ Local Government Board’s Approval pared with an estimated figure of to Petition — Approval dated 17th £9,150,000. Receipts from income tax October 1975 to the following Petition are £7,956,000 compared with an —Petition of the Mayor, Aldermen and estimate of £7,964,000. The figure for Burgesses of the Borough of Douglas general income to date is £1,880,000 for approval ito the conveyance to J. compared with an estimate of Marsland Limited of certain plots of £1,775,000. The total figure of income land situate in Well Road Hill, Dou­ to date for 1974/75 is £.19,026,000 which glas, as part of the terms of compensa­ compares with our probable figure at tion in connection with the acquisition Budget time of £18,889,000, an of properly by the Petitioners in the increase of £137,000. I will, of course, Chester Street Clearance Area. be happy to inform the Court of the exact figures as soon as they are available. GOVERNMENT REVENUE The Speaker: Your Excellency, I FOR 1974/75 — QUESTION thank the hon. member for his reply. BY MR. SPEAKER The Governor: Item three — Ques­ tions. I call upon the hon. Mr. BASIC FUEL: GOVERNMENT Speaker to ask the question standing SUPPORT — QUESTION BY in his name. MR. MOORE The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg The Governor: Question number two. to ask: The 'hon. member for North Douglas, (1) What was the actual revenue of Mr. Moore. the Isle of Man Government for the financial year 1974-75? Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, I beg to ask: (2) What were the several amounts As the substantial increase in received) from— harbour dues has added almost 50p per (a) Customs and Excise; ton to the price of coal and, in addi­ (.b) Income and other Taxes; tion, a further increase of 50p per ton (c) General receipts? has been imposed in respect of freight (3) How does the total sum and the charge, will your Board give considera­ abovementioned constituent amounts tion to ways and means of mitigating compare with the estimate made last the hardship which will, by reason of May of suich receipts? this exceptional rise in the cost of a basic fuel, bear particularly harshly on (4) If any of the above information the elderly and lower income groups. is not yet to hand, will you give an undertaking to furnish dt to Hon. In particular, will your Board, within Members as soon as it is known? the provisions of the Coal (Sea Freight) Subsidy Scheme, bring Gov­ The Governor: The Chairman of the ernment financial support up to a Finance Board. realistic figure bearing in mind that Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, the the present figure of £0.6636 per ton final accounts for Customs and Excise was fixed in 1971 and th at an adjust-

Government Revenue for 1974/75—Question by Mr. Speaker. - -Basic Fuel: Government Support—Question by Mr. Moore, TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T151

ment -to take account of inflation is over a five-year period from an average overdue? of £18.32 per week to £80.50 per week? The Governor: The Chairman of the Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I am Finance Board. aware that harbour dues on coal have increased toy 34p since 1971 and the Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, the increase -given to dock workers Coal Freight Subsidy Order 1970 pro­ recently will cost a further 30p per ton. vides for a Government contribution 'towards the cost of freight on coal Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, can I brought into the Island. It provides for ask a further supplementary please? Is subsidy to be paid whether the coal is it not a fact that the main thing that used toy a young person or an old we are worrying about is what is the 'person, whether he is well-to-do or price of coal in the Isle of Man as otherwise; it is, in fact, an across-the- ’compared with the United Kingdom, board subrddy which takes no account and is it not a fact that the present rate of the needs of persons using the coal. ■for ccal, Grade A, in the Isle of Man Since the rate of subsidy wtas last is 28p per ow-t. higher than that paid reviewed Tynwald has approved con­ in the Liverpool area and 29p per cwt. siderable increases in pensions and higher than that paid for Grade B coal? other benefits paid toy the Board' of Is ,it not also a fact that the actual Social Security. All these 'benefits have ■figure of coal subsidy—and I am only increased in real value since 1971. In quoting from the Coal Merchants’ other words the pension is worth more Association — the actual freight in purchasing ¡power than it was in charge to them has now risen to 50p? 1971 when Sea Freight Subsidies were These -are the figures that the coal Tast reviewed. In addition, as hon. merchants have suppled me with. ■members will know, the rates of The Speaker: Your Excellency, may supplementary benefit paid in the Isle I ask a supplementary? Is it not also a of M an are now higher than those paiid fact, Your Excellency, that the differ­ in the United Kingdom — I believe by ential -is greater than that stated by almost £1.50 per week. It should also the hon. im-^mber for N orth Douglas as be borne in mind that there are other in the Isle of Man we get no first grade forms of heating which are not subsi­ coal? First grade coal never comes to dised, ?uch as gas. electricity and oil. the Isle of Man, it is second grade coal, Coal Fre'ght Subsidy discriminates and the differential is even greater against users of these types of fuel than the hon. member has stated. and is an inefficient way of giving Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, a assistance to thore in need. The supplementary? Is it not also a fact Finance Board has at the moment no that most of Liverpool is a smokeless proposals for revising the rate of zone and the people in that zone have subsidy, tout will continue, in co-opera­ to pay a lot higher costs for their fuel tion with the Board of Social Security, ■than we do in the Isle of Man? in attempting to make the finance al'o'cated to relieving hardship avail- Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, may I ■aWe to those in the greatest need. ■ask a que ition? Did you look >at this in relation to the cost of other fuels Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, because gas, for instance, I am told1, could I ask a supplementary of the costs three times more on the Is’and Chairman? Is it not a fact that the than it does in Manchester or Liver­ figure quoted here as an increase in pool? harbour dues is in fact totally incor­ rect? The actual increase in harbour Mr. Moore: Can I -ask a funther dues this year is on tonnage on freight suippiementary, Your Excellency, at from 25p to 32p and on shipping the .arae time? Was not a resolution tonnage from lOp to 16p. Is it not also placed before this hon. Court to cover a fact that this must be seen in the all fuels as recently as eighteen months light of dock workers’ wages increasing ago when we were given the same

Basic Fuel: Government Support—Question by Mr. Moore. T152 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 brush-off as we are now being ¡given on EXTENSION OF NATIONAL the question of coal? HOUSE-BUILDERS’ REGISTRATION SCHEME — QUESTION BY Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I do MR. KERMEEN not remember a brush-off and I am The Governor: Question number afraid that I am not fully aware of the three. I oa^l upon the hon. m em ber for comparative prices of coal in Liver­ Michael, Mr. Kermeen. pool, Manchester, or any other area of Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I beg the country in order to compare those to ask : prices with those charged in the Isle From time to time you have of Man. I do know 'that there are very mentioned in public that ‘the Local many commodities which cost more in Government Board had recommended the Isle of Man than they do in the ihe extens:on to the Isle of Man of the United Kimadom and for that reason National House-Builders Registration we did increase Supplementary Bene­ Scheme under which ten-year structural fits in order that those in need should defects guarantees are provided. Would be helped -to pay the difference. I feel, you indicate whether your Board still sir. that I must limit the reply that I supports that recommendation and, if make to the question that was put so. what progress has been made in to me. putting it into effect? The Governor: The Chairman of the Mr. Ranson: Your Excellency, could Loral Government Board. the Chairman of the Finance Board Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, the make it a little clearer to me what Local Government Board has been exactly does he intend to do or what anxious to introduce the Registration precisely1 is in his mind — does he of B-ui'ders on the Island under the mean in his latest rep-^y that in his view National House-Builders’ Registration be does not think a subsidy of any Scheme for some considerable time. In further kind is necessary, or doe= he fact I note from the Board’s office mean that where it may be necessary records that the subiect has been under from time to time it could only be discussion wilh the Isle of Man ■aaolied or he would only consider it Building Trades Council for about two through a means test? Would he make vnars. It miffht be helpful. Your that a little clearer please? Excel1 ency, to hon. members in dealine with this auestion if I gave some brief Mr. Bolton: Your F-vrellency. I have details about the National House- no doubt whatsoever that now the hon. Builders’ Council, which has its head- member has mentioned it. this is a nuarters in London. The council is an nuestron for a mean« test. There is no independent, non-political, non-profit shadow of doubt that we fare not here r^aVini boi-’y which onerates through­ to subsidise across-the-board and anv- out the whole oif the United Kingdom. bodv who wishes to receive subsidy Tts p-e-'r-ibpr-bi-n is draw n from a wi't--' because of need shou'd prove the need, «ant»«* of ’-■':ldin-o' ’nterests. includ'"*? Tnstitute of British Architects, the there can be no question of this. As far (■>,0 Trif.tit.iTtp of C hartered Surveyors n- as I am concerned all I have said is raime's’ associations, local ant>ori'K<« Finance Board has. at the moment, no wo~nen’s ortfunisations. buildine emolov- proposals for revising- the rate of erq and Kir.idimg trade unions, together subsidy but will continue, in co-opera­ with Government observers. The tion with the Board of Social Security, rv’Vr’ipc nf council are exe-uted hv in attempting to make the finance p n^’d staff including 300 technical fiel^ allocated to relieving hardship available staff The;r aims are Cl) to set soun^ to those in the greatest need. That is standards for new hous°s all that I would wish to say at this and »radual’v raice those standards moment. and (91 to ensure that no purchaser of a new house will, in future, be

Extension of National House-Builders’ Registration Schema—Question by Mr. Kermeen. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T153

out of pocket through defects. Subsidi­ to permit only those builders accept­ ary aims are to promote research and able to the National House-Builders’ to campaign against anything which Council to build houses -in the Isle of may ciirectly or indirectly adversely Man. It was suggested as long ago as affect new housing standards. The 1965 that the Local Government Board council is financed solely from was the appropriate Government body registration fees and inspection to administer the local registration charges. Ninety-nine per cent of scheme, but the necessary legislation to all houses built for sale in the give effect to this recommendation has United Kingdom are covered by the not, as yet, been introduced. The registration scheme and practically all Building Trades Council, I would add, building firms are now registered. In iterates under regulations which, addition to prescribing standards of although approved by Tynwald, are building construction, to which mem­ not made in accordance with any bers must conform, the council statute. With the expected transfer of provides a mandatory insurance scheme the functions of the Employment under which ten years’ structural Exchange to the Board of Social Secur­ defect- guarantees are provided. This ity it would, in my view, be singularly scheme also underwrites the contractor inappropriate also to transfer their for structural defects if the contractor functions for the registration of should go bankrupt. I trust that hon. tai ders and workmen to that Board. members will agree with the Local Perhaps these changes will now allow Government Board that it wou'd be the Registration Scheme to be revital­ advantageous to allow this very worth­ ised and the recommendations of the while organisation to operate in the council and the Board brought into Island, as an independent body offering effect under the appropriate Govern­ a valuable service to all persons ment department. To sum up, therefore, building houses, in addition to those the Local Government Board most provided under law by the different certainly recommends the extension of Government and local government the National House-Builders’ Registra­ departments. The Board and the Isle of tion Scherre to the Island and it is Man Building Trades Council are both ■bored, w ith the support of th is hon. 'agreed that steps should be initiated to Court, that this will come about at a introduce ithe N ational H ouse-Builders’ very early date. Thank you. Registration Scheme into the Island The Speaker: Your Excellency, may and furthermore that consideration I as’.s a supplementary? As the Court sta 'd be given to membership being accepted this principle three years ago rcn'oulsory for all builders engaged in and the Local Government Board were the construction of houses. Consulta­ instructed to fet on with it, why is it tions wiiith the National House Builders’ nocessary to say now the question will Council have taken place and they be revitalised and some progress will have agreed in principle to operate be made if the Court will, in fact, here. On the basis of 500 houses built indicate the desire that it should be in the iprivate sector per year in the made? This is history now. Your Isle o' Man—that was figures provided Excellency, it is a matter for concern 'n 1974—one full-time inspector and and I would like the hon. member to one part-time inspector would suffice explain, other than this waffle we have and the salaries for these men, as I heard, just why we have been waiting have said already, wou'd be received! three years while people are putting from fees charged. Before these up with considerable amounts of recommendations can be put into effect inconvenience, irritation and, in some the Building Trades Council have cases, despair about the new buildings informed the Board that priority must that are erected by contractors who are be fiven to the amendment of the not suitable to build a pig-sty? regulat'ons governing the local scheme for the registration of builders and Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I would workmen to make fit comipulrory and , like to ask a supplementary which may

i Extension of National House-Builders’ Registration Scheme—Question by Mr. Kermeen. T154 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 toe of interest to the Chairman of the assurance that action will toe taken and Local Government Board and the that we will get somewhere now? members of the Court. Would the Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I Chairman explain, in simple language would just like to ask a supplementary please, with the event of this new concerning actually the legislation registration council coming in and ¡the w hich should have followed ithe fees that will toe charged to pay their motion on the Tynwald Agenda of 11th costs — at the moment I am sure you December 1973 in the name of Mr. will agree Government already have a Speaker, where part (3) said “The scheme for registration in the Isle of Buiilding Trades Council should toe Man called the ‘A ” register and the reconstituted, if necessary, statu­ “B'’ register, and- on the “A” register, torily, to become the effective body of course, are those builders and exercising control of the building traders registered in the Isle of Man industry.” This, Your Excellency, was who are deemed by experience to be accepted by Tynwald in December competent to undertake works in the 1973. I would like to know does the Island which have Government or local -Chairman of the Local Government authority money wholly or partly Board know if there is any legislation involved. Therefore it wou'd ,=eem that or at what stage any legislation is to the scheme the hon. Chairman has just give the Building Trades’ Council any referred to and is hoping comes into teeth or does he, in fact, envisage that being would have to be financed the Local Government Board will take surely by the fees received from all of this over completely under their wing? those persons presently on the “A” register. The unfortunate part is that Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, much from sheer economics, a.id I am sure has been said about what should be the Chairman wall asree with this, that done. I think that the whole knub of up to last month there were only two the situation is expenditure; without firms on the ‘A ” register in the Isle of the tools the job is impossible. In Man. relation to what h-as been said about tenders being accepted from building Members: John Bell and who else? firms who are not registered, if work (Laughter). is to be done it is to be done by some­ Mr. Bell: We 1, this is the farcical body and- if there is no one on the “A” side of it, Your Excellency, the Isle of register who has tendered, the way is Man Electricity Board was one and my closed. Either you want the construc­ company was the other. This is the tions doing or the constructions remain farce that the hon. Speaker has undone, because if you cannot imple­ referred to. I raised this question, I ment the legislation which has been raise it almost every year, what is the passed, your hands are tied. Again it point in having an “A” register and a comes down to a matter of expendi­ “B” register when large Government ture. It would appear that we have work, such as the building of the new Rolls-Royce ideas on a Ford income. Government Buildings, is given to Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, in contractors who refuse to go on the rep'y to the various comments which “A” register merely because to apply have ¡been made, especially to the one to so on the “A ” register one has to of the hon. Mr. Speaker, who referred show their books? The question, obvi­ to a lot of waffle, naturally I would ously, Your Excellency, is is this so expect that comment to come from the much waffle, as Mr. Speaker refers to hon. Chair. What I would like to know it, or are we really going to get some­ is whose responsibility does he reckon thing which is of benefit and which is it is to get this liability transferred workable? fro-m the Building T rades Council to Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I the Local Government Board? It is not would like to thank the hon. memtoer our responsibility. It is the responsi­ for his answer to my question, tout I bility of this hon. Court, and if they so would like if he would give some desire, somebody should move a reso­ l Extension of National Houae-Builders’ Registration Scheme—Question by Mr. Kermeen. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T155

lution to do so and get on with it. Mr. Radcliffe: I am well aware of it (interruption). Who is going to imple­ but, as you have already .said, there are ment it? only two firms that at the present The Speaker: Executive Council. comply and are on the “A” register. This is basically where the question, Mr. Radcliffe: Well that may be so. which I appreciate from my hon. It could be brought before Executive colleague, is going to be appropriate Council and further discussed. It is not and where now, with this transfer of :m.y job as Chairman of the Local certain duties to the Board of Social Government Board to implement it. Security, it is entirely wrong .to trans­ What we have said, and continue to fer the Building Trades Council, in my Lay, is that appropriate people to estimation, to that said Board. It operate the registration of builders in should be taken over by the Board, who the Isle of Man are the Local Govern­ have the technical staff to operate it ment Board and the sooner it is trans­ and intend to do so. ferred to the Local Government Board it is possible that we will get some progress. It ¡is not my job to get up in BUILDING BY PRIVATE this hon. Court and say let us build my ENTERPRISE SCHEME — em pire up a bit bigger toy giving it SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE these further duties. I will raise it APPROVED with Executive Council next Thurs­ The Governor : Item No. 4 on the day morning to get some progress Agenda. I call on the Chairman of the made. The point made by Mr. Bell in Local Government Board to move the reference to who was on the “A” regis­ motion standing in his name. ter and the “B” register, whatever the register may be, looking at it from a Mr. Radcliffe : Your Excellency, I practical point of view, if we were to beg to move :— insist in the Local Government Board That Tynwald— when we pet tenders in for certain (a) authorises the Treasurer of the projects, that we only take builders or Isle of Man to expend during the firms who are on the “A” register, you year ending 31st March 1976 from know exactly what would happen. We the Capital Transactions Account, would have a complete closed shop, we the sum of £150,000 to meet loans would only get tenders from one firm under the Building by Private and the whole 'basis of this transfer of Enterprise Scheme. Such sum to the duties to the Board and the be in addition to the sum of registration of workmen and the £350,000 approved by Tynwald registration of companies to the Board on the 20th May 1975; will be to get a proper basis organised whereby we will be able to examine (b) sanctions borrowings not ex­ the background of the various com­ ceeding the sum of £150,000 being panies and know whether or not they made by Government, such bor­ were capable. At the present moment, rowings to be repaid within a looking at it from a practical point of period of 25 years. view, what we do when we go out to There are just one or two brief tender on big project schemes like comments, Your Excellency, I think we housing in various areas is to ask for should make on this. I feel certain that the firms interested — at the present this Government gets criticised many moment this is the only way we can times for many of the things or the do it—to write in and tell us who is policies put forward, but I think the ■interested in doing the job and then we Private Enterprise Scheme on housing check the background of these firms is one that we should be very proud ourselves to know whether or not their of indeed. This resolution is for a fur­ past experience proves that they are ther sum of £150,000, in addition to capab’e. the £350,000 originally approved by Mr. Bell: But that is what the “A” Tynwald for the current financial year, register is for. for the purpose of providing assistance

Building by Private Enterprise Scheme—Supplementary Vote Approved. T156 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

towards the building of dwellings under area was sold for £27,000, which was a the Private Enterprise Scheme. In Feb­ very, very good price. What disturbs ruary of this year I stood before this me is the fact that the bulk of the Court for a similar purpose and I can houses on this estate are in fact being only reiterate the comments made on paid for by Government Schemes. In that occasion because the biggest fac­ c/ther words the taxpayer is putting tor again for implementing this resolu­ the money up to build the houses, quite tion is the rise in the building costs rightly, on these estates, but what dis­ and a reduction in house building time turbs me is the very large sum of due to the shrinkage in the industry. money that someone is gleaning out of In other words we are getting houses the land development. We have talked completed much quicker than we have and we have passed legislation to say been for several years and this is why that speculation should be stopped and we did not anticipate so many of them here we are actively encouraging spec­ being completed so quickly and which ulation by using public funds to build is why we have run out of cash to pay houses on land on which the specula­ for it and why we must have a supple­ tor is making an absolute killing. I be­ mentary vote. It is satisfying to note lieve that the Court or the Local Gov­ that the Scheme is still meeting a de­ ernment Board should look carefully mand in that despite the fall off in the at a Bill presently going before or al­ building industry 33 applications have most through I believe the Parliament been approved to date in this financial of Westminster whereby land necessary year compared with 49 and 69 respec­ to house the people will be made avail­ tively in 1974 and 1975. In the four able at its actual value at the time of years ending 31st March, 1975, the demand, if it is agricultural land so be total assistance given under this it agricultural land value and not de­ Scheme amounted to £1,502,600. The velopment priced land which they are total since the Scheme was devised in now getting charged. I think the Board 1962 is £2,538,274.. an extrem ely en­ should look into this because this is couraging indication of the Govern­ forcing escalating costs in actual house ment’s contribution towards house production. I know in the Peel area ownership in that period. I would like probably £2 000 to £2,500 on each also to mention at this time that on house that is £;oing up w ith public land owned by the Government at An­ money is due to the speculator’s profit. dreas which the Local Government Mr. R adcliffe: Your Excellency, I Board did reclaim from scrub land think the hon. member is talking about and now' is a very attractive Estate the Community Land Bill which is re­ development, there are several plots ferring to public house, public owned still available for sale and I think now houses. having given that little plug, possibly the press could emphasise this, so that Mr. MacDonald : No, no, it is a priv­ we get more young Manx people en­ ate thing. couraged to build their own houses. I Mr. R adcliffe: I could also, Your beg to move sir. Excellency, reassure the hon. member for Peel that I think possibly he has Mr. MacDonald : Your Excellency, got some of his facts slightly astray, whilst I think everyone in the Court because basically anybody applying will support this there is one thing that under the Private Enterprise Scheme does rather disturb me and that is the can net build a house if the cost of that fact that we are continuing to pay ex­ house is in excess of a set standard aggerated prices for land on which to price stipulated by the Local Govern­ build houses through which this Scheme ment Board. operates. On the outskirts of Peel there has teen a private field developed re­ Mr. Bell: And what is that price? cently and they are charging between Mr. Radcliffe : If the price per sq. £2,500 and £3,000 per plot for land metre including the price of the land is which was originally sold — the entire excessive the application is refused.

Building by Private Enterprise Scheme—Supplementary Vote Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T157

Therefore if you start off with a very come arising this year will exceed expensive plot of ground in the first £300,000. To accommodate the rise in place it would outprice the applicant circulation expected over the next in the final place because he could not twelve to eighteen months Finance have his house approved and because Board recommend that the maximum of this we are getting the reaction from permitted value of the Note Issue be the builders that they are reducing increased to £5,500,000. I beg to move their prices. Very shortly I will be sir. coming before this hon. Court on a Mr. Devereau : I beg to second, Your scheme which the Local Government Excellency. Board have repriced and it will amaze The Governor : Is that agreed? you to find the reduction that we have now had in the final costs. As far as It was agreed. the Government is concerned and the utilisation of Government money or REVISED RATES OF SUBSISTENCE pubLc money as it is, we, on the Board, ALLOWANCES FOR OFFICIALS take very strong views on what we are — APPROVED prepared to approve for costings under The Governor : Item No. 6, the Chair­ these Schemes. man of the Finance Board. The Governor: Is that agreed hon. Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg members? to move :— It was agreed. That Tynwald approves the following revised rates of subsistence allowances payable to officials— FURTHER INCREASE IN ISSUE 1. Absence on duty more than five miles OF GOVERNMENT NOTES from headquarters between 12 noon and — APPROVED 3 p.m. or between 6 p.m. and 9 p.m. The Governor : Item No. 5., the Chair­ (only one such allowance to be drawn man of the Finance Board. per day) — increased from 40p to 50p. Mr. Bolton ; Your Excellency, I beg 2. Absence on duty within the Island to m o v e:— more than five miles from headquarters That by virtue of Section 1 of the for a continuous period of 10 hours or Isle of Man G overnm ent Notes A ct 1961, more — increased from 65p to 80p. in approval is hereby granted to the lieu of the corresponding allowances Treasurer, with the sanction of the prescribed in sub-paragraphs (1) and Governor, issuing Government Notes in (2) of the Resolution, of Tynwald of the terms of the Act in denominations of 6th July 1973. ten pounds, five pounds, one pound and Subsistence allowances are payable fifty new pence to an aggregate value to Government Officers when absent on not exceeding five million and five duty from their usual headquarters as hundred thousand pounds sterling. set out in the resolution. It will ibe seen Hon. members will recall that in that the officer has to be five miles or January of this year Tynwald auth­ more from his usual place of work for orised an increase of ££ million in the a continuous period of at least 3 hours maximum permitted value of the Note before he is able to claim the allow­ Issue bringing the total maximum issue ance. The current allowance of 40p for to £4,500,000. Since then the value of one meal and 65p when the officer’s the Note Issue has continued to rise, absence exceeds 10 hours has been in primarily due to the effects of inflation operation since Ju ly 1973. In order to and the current position is that the take account of inflation it is now pro­ value of notes in circulation is posed to increase these allowances by £4,328,000 and is confidently expected about 25% to 50p and 80p respectively. to rise substantially as Christmas ap­ I beg to move, Your Excellency. proaches. The success of the issue con­ Mr. Devereau : I beg to second, Your tinues and it is estimated that the in­ Excellency.

Further Increase in Issue of Government Notes — Approved.—Revised Rates of Subsistence Allowances for Officials — Approved. T158 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

Mr. B e ll: Your Excellency, could this receive should be adjusted to meet the mean that if an official of Government present inflation position. who lived at Peel and his headquarters The Governor : Do you wish to say was at the new Government Buildings anything Mr. Bolton? went on a visit to the Peel area and popped into his house for his lunch Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I should that he would get paid subsistence for point out that in the main this allow­ a meal? ance is paid to officials who may have to travel about the Island and they are Mr. M acDonald: Your Excellency, not in any way to be compared with this is partly what I was going to say1 workmen who go to work from their and I feel that in these days of strin­ headquarters, because a vast number gency — we have all been told that we of workmen never work in their head­ have got to cut back, cut back and yet quarters in any case. I think that this here we have people who have had a is a condition of service which has very large increase in salary recently, been laid down for a very long time in fact the salary scale as most people and, as the hon. member of the Coun­ of the Island think of the Civil Service cil has said, all we are considering is generally is very generous and I think should we give them more in view of this is a highly dangerous situation we the effect of inflation. The suggestion are getting into. Does it mean the wor­ is that it should be increased by 25% kers can now start claiming for being in order to meet today’s costs. We have away from their normal headquarters? done it for ourselves and for other Does it mean my labour force in the offioials of Government travelling up Harbour Board for example can claim, and down the ¡Island — is there any and their headquarters is in Douglas, reason why we should not do exactly are they now going to be able to claim the same thing for the people who are this amount of money and stop taking entitled in any case to the allowance? their sandwiches and flasks with them? Can they also claim this money? Mr. M acDonald: You could not carry your sandwiches to London with you. Mrs. Quayle : Your Excellency, I was going to say the same. I also find it Mr. B e ll: Your Excellency, the hon. awfully stupid that five miles is the Chairman asks if there is a reason, beginning of the limit. I mean someone there is a reason, we as members are could ride on a bicycle five miles quite not given a salary which is our liveli­ easily in a quarter of an hour. hood, whereas the official’s salary takes account of three meals a day, whether Mr. Faragher: Your Excellency, I he brings it in a paper bag or whether think the hon. member from Peel and he goes home for it. Of course there Mr. Bell stated hypothetical cases and I is a reason. should imagine that any member of any Mr. Bolton : I would not have thought Board of Tynwald who should start so. this would be very soon told about it. I do not think this would ever happen. The Governor : Is that agreed hon. members? Mr. B e ll: It is in existence now. It was agreed. Mr. F aragher: Well it is time the Board stopped it. Mr. Sim cocks: Your Excellency, are PENSIONS INCREASE (ANNUAL iwe not discursing the rate of a scheme REVIEW) ORDER — APPROVED. which is already Government policy? The Governor : Item No. 7, the Chair­ The fact that Government officials get man of the Finance Board. an allowance if they are sent beyond their base is a policy which has been Mr. B olton: Your Excellency, I beg established for a considerable time. All to move :— we are concerned with now is whether (1) That in accordance with Standing or not the rate of payment which they Order 162 (3), the provisions of Stand­

Pensions Increase (Annual Review) Order — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T159 ing Order 162 (1) be waived to enable 7th May, 1974, we thought it w as only the following resolution to be con­ a first reading, we had a very long sidered. Agenda in the Keys, and to our sur­ (2) That the Pensions Increase prise all three readings were pushed (Annual Review) Order 1975 be and the into that one Sitting because we were same is hereby approved. told it was important. When I looked back afterwards at Hansard I found Hon. members will be aware that it exactly the same happened in 1970 w ith has been our practice over the years to the Pensions (Increase) Bill which was grant the same increases to public ser­ then before members and one does vice pensioners in the Isle of Man as wonder whether there is some sort of are granted to; corresponding pensioners trickery over this sort of thing. If I in the United Kingdom and our legis­ might just elaborate a bit, we had lation provides for this to be done by clauses 1 to 8 of this Pensions (In­ order. The increases awarded are based crease) Act given us in a bunch and I on the rise in the cost of living during have taken two quotes from members the review period of 12 months up to when we passed this Bill, the three 30th June, 1975, and the appropriate in­ readings in one Sitting, one member creases to be paid to pensioners from said “I am not happy with the unseem­ the 1st December this year are as set ly haste with which we are dealing with out in paragraph 2 of the Pensions In­ this Bill.” Another member said “I crease (A nnual Review) O rder 1975. It would like to voice my objection to will be seen that any pension which the way in which this Bill has been was aw arded before 1st July 1974, is to rushed through.” In the actual Bill it­ be increased by 26.1% while those be­ self, I have section 2 in front of me ginning in the last six months of 1974 because the Explanatory Note on the attract an increase of 29.3% of the basic Order at the back, the Explanatory rate and the more recent pensions start­ Note says from the Bill that the Board ing in the first six m onths of 1975 are shall review the official pensions and to be increased by 19.9%. The pen­ this it has done. It then says the sioners to which this Order applies are method of achieving an Order — if it set out in Schedule 2 of the Pensions is 2% they shall do it by Order. In the (Increase) A ct 1974 and include Civil actual Act the word “shall” which you Servants, Teachers, Police Officers, will find in your Explanatory Note line Health Service employees and certain 6, this is what it says in the Explan­ miscellaneous pensions such as those atory Note —- “If it is found that in payable under the Meritorious Service the review period the cost of living has Act. The same increases are awarded risen by 2% or more the Board shall to the Post Office Pensioners and also raise the annual rate of such pensions Local Authority Pensionable Officers. accordingly” — this is what the Note The increases proposed in this Order says, but when I look at the Actual will cost £22,200 in the current year Act it says exactly the same about the and will cost £66,600 in a full year. 2% but it says “the annual rate of an Your Excellency, I beg to move the official pension may be increased.” It resolution standing in my name. does not say “shall”. Mr. Devereau : I beg to second, Your Excellency. A Member : It means shall. Mrs. Quayle: I want to say some­ Mrs. Quayle: Well it does not say so, thing, Your Excellency, because I just it says “may” and this is what I think we cannot go on approving these wanted to say a bit further about be­ things without giving it some thought. cause the taxpayer has got to pay for First, Your Excellency,, I wanted to this and at the end of last Tynwald I point out about the Pensions (Increase) was on my feet arguing that we are Act of 1974 by virtue of which this over-governed and that we have got to Order is before us today. This Bill, as try and cut down. I feel we are living at was then, was brought before us on in a sort of fools’ paradise, Tynwald is

Pensions Increase (Annual Review) Order — Approved. T160 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

and indeed asking our taxpayers too to hatters’ tea party going on in Britain, give this inflation proof pension to our that is their affiair; but I. personally, retired Public Servants. The rate they do not want to have a mad hatters’ tea are going to get is 26% and 1‘ ask you party going on over here. I feel it is what other person, retired person in the high time we said the party is over now Island, what other person is able to to our retired public servants in their hope for anywhere near that increase? pensions, and indeed, as you know, I If you are in a very rich concern such feel the same way about our bureau­ as an insurance company or bank per­ cracy, that we are paying all these, to haps you may hope for perhaps 12% me, unreasonable sums. but there are mighty few people in this Island, an the private sector, who are Mr. Nivision : Your Excellency, I am going to get anywhere near 12%. A rather amazed to hear this speech of lot of employers are struggling to main­ the hon. member for Castletown. We tain the rate of pension that they are do know that there is a need for supposed to pay to their retired people. vigilance in how money should be As you know when this Act in Britain spent, ibut to ibring this out on an attack was originally passed, the one which on pension increase is iprotoalbly the our Pension (Increase) Act is based on, wrong time to do it. I do recall some it was passed in 1971 before we had people many years ago, nice respect­ had the oil crisis. The prices are now able middle-class people, who were inflated, they are oil inflated and other living almost in poverty, and on making people cannot have these things, they enquiries aibout them I found that they have got to be realistic, they realise had retired some twenty years previ­ the money is not there. One of my great ously on a pension which had not been concerns is that if we go on and on adjusted. A t the -time when the person paying out these unrealistic sums we retired tney retired with a reasonable are going to find our policies forced into pension for that time. Inflation came channels that lots of us do not care aiong and they found themse±ves really for, we are going to be in a cleft stick. in poverty. Do we want our pensioners, I believe sooner or later we have got retired policemen, retired public ser­ to face the fact that we cannot tag on vants, and so fortn, who retire on pen­ to what Britain is doing. Last month, sion, receiving a pension which at that if I might again return to that debate time is a pension which is suitable for a moment, one or two hon. mem­ if augmented, if they have some money, bers said to me, why pick on a partic­ to keep them going at that time and ular section of the community, why as time goes on with inflation, the rapid penalise this particular section of the rate of inflation — I think it is reason­ community, so I now turn round to able to expect, as private companies do, them and say right why pick out a that we should bring up this rate. particular section of the community and This 26% that has been referred to is benefit them in this way? Why is not only in special cases; there is a scale everybody kept at a reasonable rate for whereby some receive a very small their pension increase? The general percentage as far as rises are con­ public is suffering and I find it mad cerned. I would hope that this Court that we should be doing this for our would honour their pledge, as they did, bureaucracy. I must say, Your Excel­ that they would take care of these lency, I am very heartened by the pensions from time to time and increase Archbishop speaking out and telling us them. This is what we are doing by in effect that we should not just stand this order; we are honouring a pledge on the touch line of social justice and which we gave hitherto. I would hope do nothing, we should think about it that whilst there is and one could sug­ and see what in effect could be done gest many ways in which money could and this is exactly what I am hoping toe saved, surely we are not going to I am doing. I feel if we go on like this go after this section of society firstly. we may well run out of money, and I I think there could well be many other say to myself, they have got a mad things. We must bear in mind that

Pensions Increase (Annual Review) Order — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T161 monies paid in this way, it is looked be again drawing £3,000. Is that so? upon to be toy many people a distri­ Mr. N ivison : i would not like to bution of money, it does come back, enter into exact figures, if I may speak it is spent amongst the community. I again, Your Excellency, but I do say would hope that we should not go for there is a different method which is people in this category. Incidentally, used in calculating. I do say that as regarding the pensions that have been far as the Social Security pensions are increased — and the hon. members and concerned, they are in (many cases myself are members of the Board — ahead of what the cost of living might I have not got the percentages offhand, well be. In fact, both parties in the but they will find that the national United Kingdom, the Conservative pensions — incidentally, the social Party promised a six-monthly review security pensions for retired and old- and it has been found that the existing age pensioners which are going up, administration too have, in fact, had went up yesterday. This is the second two increases in the one year. You will rise this year, the second rise this year. find that those increases take care of I must say that we must be fair to all the future to some degree, whereas concerned, and I know that the Court with these pensions they have not gone will pass this particular legislation, and that far, they do not take care of the would hope that if we are to have a future, they are catching up with the witch-hunt on expenditure, let us do past. This is what we are attempting it on something else other than the to do with this order, catching up for pension of civil servants. ■the past, to bring it more up to date Miss Cowin : Your Excellency, I think for the present day. There is provision that adjustment of a pension to make it that as far as the future is concerned, relate to the cost of living at any given that it’ can Be dealt with in the future. time is social justice. I think it is the The Governor: I call on the hon. rate of percentage based on a high Chairman to reply. amount which the hon. member for Mr. Bolton : Your Excellency, in reply Castletown wished to bring to our to the hon. member for Castletown, I notice. Mention has been made of a would like to say that I did preface my sliding scale, about which I feel I would like to learn more. Am I to understand remarks by saying: “You are aware that this sliding scale allows for 26% that it has been our practice over the years to grant the same increases to- to be paid to those whose pensions are not now in parity with the normal? public service pensioners in the Isle of Man as are granted to corresponding Mrs. Quayle : Your Excellency, could pensioners in the United Kingdom, and I just ask the Chairman of the Board our legislation provides for this to be of Social Security something, because done by order.” These are the increases he is more au fait with these things which have been given in the United than I am? Am I not right in saying Kingdom. If we are to change this we that this inflation-proof pension of the cannot change it under this order; the Civil Service is geared to the cost of question must be brought up, I think, living index, and that the ordinary state in a different way in a different place. pension does not go up in line with The situation is this, that the 1971 Act, prices, but with average earnings sub­ I think, which was referred to by the ject to present Government restrictions? hon. member was increasing the pen­ In other words, one is going uip very sions themselves because we had no much more than the other. This is machinery for dealing quickly with wThat I read from an expert on these these increases, and in many cases the matters. Is this correct that a person increases were being paid in the Isle on £3,000 — the year I came into this of Man months later than they were hon. Court in 1971 — if he retired when being paid in the United Kingdom. his salary was £3,000, then his pension The purpose of the 1974 A ct w as would have been £1,500, by now or -merely to enable that particular the next year after this order, he will exercise to be done toy order. It did

Pensions Increase (Annual Review) Order — Approved. T162 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 not alter the pensions in itself to any would like to second this resolution, extent, it merely provided that this •but in so doing, thi_s being an annual could be done by order, as we are resolution are we to understand that doing this morning, rather than having in this particular field of commerce to wait for legislation to go through there is a closed shop? As far as I three readings in each Branch of the know, with the possible exception of Legislature. I think that the hon. mem­ the Board of Education, all Govern­ ber must remember that whatever may ment accounts, all parish accounts, all appear in an Explanatory Memorandum local authority accounts seem to fall is not part of the order, and whether into the one pot. I have no particular it says “shall” or “may” is a matter, brief for this particular firm or any I think, of some indifference. The ques­ other, but I imagine all our local tion must be always dealt with in terms accountants pay rates and taxes and of the Act itself. I think that these are entitled to an equal crack of the pensions were part of the terms of ser­ whip. vice of the people when they were Miss C ow in: Your Excellency, may employed by Government, and if we I ask the Chairman of Finance Board are to keep in line with the analogues if in fact this company is the main which we have with the United King­ company and it sub-contracts with dom in all cases, then we are bound to other smaller and other larger Arms? pay them. If, on the other hand, our I feel that where we have many com­ policy has changed, then we have got panies dealing in this business and to reconsider the whole question. This sort of business, the work should foe is not the opportune moment, 1 think, shared to some extent. for dealing with the whole question as Mr. M acDonald: Your Excellency, to whether or not pensions should be coud I ask if the Finance Board could dealt with in this way. I beg to move. possibly look at the suggestion that 'I The Governor: Is it agreed, hon have made many times. Simply, the members? rapidly escalating costs of auditing — It was agreed. I was wondering if the time has now come where in fact we should have a PUBLIC AUDITORS — Government appointed Director of APPOINTMENT FOR 1974/75 Public Audit as most other countries AND FEES PAYABLE — APPROVED do. In fact, throughout the entire Commonwealth you have a Director The Governor: Item number 8. I call of Public Audit responsible directly to upon the Chairman of the Finance the elected House who cannot be Board. shifted or moved without a two-thirds Mr. Bolton : Your Excellency, I beg majority of the House, which makes to move :— him extremely powerful in ensuring (1) That Messrs. Pannell Fitzpatrick that Boards and Ministries and Depart­ & Co. be appointed to audit the account? ments are very, very careful in the use of public funds and the allocation of the bodies named in the Schedule to the Finance Board Memorandum of of public Ifunds. October 1975 (Government Circula'1 Mr. Bolton : Your Excellency, the hon. 130/75) for 1974/5, and that the feel■ member for East Douglas, Miss Cowin, for auditing those accounts be fixed at queried the position of Messrs. Pannell the amounts detailed opposite their Fitzpatrick and Co., as to whether they names in column 3 of the said Schedule. were a firm which was sub-contracting the work. I think that I have got to (2) That Messrs. Pannell Fitzpatrick say that Pannell, Fitzpatrick are one & Co. be appointed to audit the accounts firm who do carry out the work them­ of the bodies named in Part I of the selves; there is no question of sub­ said Schedule for 1975/6 and 1976/7 at contracting or letting it out to anybody a fee to be negotiated at a later date. else, as far as I am aware. I think Mr1. Q uayle: Your (Excellency, ¡1 the hon. member can be satisfied that

Public Auditors — Appointment for 1974/75 and Fees. Payable—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T163 they do the work themselves and that be expressed, too, to the Lancashire they are fully competent to do it. With and Cheshire Adoption Council for the regard to the remarks of the hon. very valuable service which they give member for Peel, I think we must dis­ to this [Island. tinguish between the appointment of The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. the kind of man that he has got in members? mind and the appointment of auditors in the ordinary way. The gentleman It was agreed. who would be appointed under the sug­ gestion of the hon. member for Peel BILLS FOR SIGNATURE — may well be someone who should be REQUISITE SIGNATURES OBTAINED operating in the Isle of Man — I have often thought so — but his job is quite The Governor1: I have to announce different from that which is being done that all three Bills have been signed by M essrs. Pannell, F itzpatrick and Co. by a quorum of each Branch. in connection with the Government accounts. He is a man who can BRITISH NATIONALITY (FEES) criticise what is being done, whereas REGULATIONS — APPROVED the auditors are merely there to certify th at w hat is being done has ¡been done, The Governor : It has been suggested or has been done or has been spent, that we might defer the next item and is in line with the decisions of Tynwald move on to the end of the Agenda. and of Boards, and that the money has Is that the wish of the Court? been properly dealt with and accounted It was agreed. for. II think those are the differences. The Governor: Item number 11. I think there is nothing else that I need to say on this resolution. I beg The Attorney General : Y our Ex­ to move. cellency, I beg to move :— The Governor; is it agreed, hon. That the British Nationality (Fees) members? Regulations 1975 made by His Excel­ lency the Lieutenant Governor on 20th It was agreed. October 1975 under the provisions of Section 1 of the British Nationality (Fees) A ct 1949 be and the same are GRANT TO LANCASHIRE AND hereby approved. CHESHIRE ADOPTION COUNCIL — The Governor : Is that agreed, hon. APPROVED members? The Governor : Item number 9. I call on the Chairman of the Board of It was agreed. Education. Miss Thornton-Duesbery : Y our E x­ WEIGHTS AND MEASURES cellency, I beg to move :— (MARKETING OF GOODS AND That Tynwald approves the payment ABBREVIATIONS OF UNITS) by the Isle of Man Board of Education REGULATIONS — APPROVED of a grant of £450 to the Lancashire The Governor : Item num ber 12. I and Cheshire Child Adoption Council call upon the Chairman of the Con­ for the financial year ending March 1976 sumer Council. in accordance with the provisions of Mr. Moore : Your Excellency, I beg Section 103 (2) of the Children and to move :— Young Persons A ct 1966. That the Weights and Measures Members : Agreed, agreed. (Marketing of Goods and Abbreviations Miss Thornton-Duesbery : ¡May I of Units) Regulations 1975 made by His thank hon. members, Your Excellency, Excellency the Lieutenant Governor on if agreement is reached. May I also 19th Septem ber 1975 under Sections 13 ask that the thanks of this hon. Court (1) (f) and 20 (4) of the Weights and

Grant to Lancashire and Cheshire Adoption Council—Approved.—Bills for Signature—Requisite Signatures Obtained.—British Nationality (Fees) Regulations —Approved.—-Weights and Measures (Marketing of Goods and Abbreviations of Units) Regulations — Approved. T164 T/NWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

Measures Act 1971 be and the same are as amended by the Statutory Bodies hereby approved. (Appointm ents) Act 1962, we have to The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. elect six members (of whom at least members? one shall be a Member of Tynwald) for a term of three years ending on It was agreed. the 30th November, 1978. The Selection Committee have recommended the WEIGHTS AND MEASURES present members, viz. : Mr, J. C. Clucas, (TESTING AND ADJUSTMENT FEES) Mr. T. E. Cowell, Mr. J. ;R. Gelling, REGULATIONS — APPROVED Mr. R. L. Lamming, Major H. P. Qual- trough and Mr. Harrison Quirk. The Governor1: Item num ber 13. I call upon £he Chairman of the Con­ Mr. Clucas : Your Excellency, on item sumer Council. number 1"5, may I just say a word or Mr. Moore : Your Excellency, I beg so. I happen to be involved in this as to move :— one of the people who is recommended for re-election, but I would just like That the Weights and Measures to raise a particular difficulty. It so (Testing and Adjustment Fees) Regula­ happened that a‘ year ago when I was tions 1975 made by His Excellency the elected to serve as a member of the Lieutenant Governor on 19th September Isle of Man Electricity Board, that the 1975 under Sections 12 (3), 40 and 53 of pattern of meetings of both the Elec­ the Weights and Measures Act 1971 be tricity Board, and the Civil De­ and the same are hereby approved. fence Commission is virtually ident­ The Governor: Is th at agreed, 'hon. ical and the net result has been members? some difficulty in trying to fulfil It was agreed. both the duties imposed upon me by the hon. Court. I would stress that the Chairman and members of both bodies CIVIL DEFENCE COMMISSION — have done their utmost to endeavour SIR HENRY SUGDEN ELECTED AS to accommodate me, but it is also an CHAIRMAN unfortunate fact that the majority of members of each body are non-Tynwald The Governor : Item number 14. members. One, il think, can readily Mr. Radcliffe : In accordance with appreciate and understand the situation Section 1 of the Civil Defence Act 1954, of a non-Tynwald member who makes as amended by the Statutory Bodies a particular point of arranging, for (Appointm ents) Act 1962, we have to argument’s sake, for the first Wednes­ elect a Chairman of the Civil Defence day afternoon in the month to be away Commission (being a Member of Tyn­ from his normal employment so that wald) for a term of three years ending he may attend to his Tynwald work. on the 30th November, 1978. The There is, however, an hon. member of present Chairman is Sir Henry Sugden. this Court who is very assiduous in After consultation with the Lieutenant his attendance, but not as a member Governor, the Selection Committee of the Civil Defence Commission, he have recommended Sir Henry Sugden. is in fact there in attendance by reason The Governor : Is that agreed, hon. of the fact that he is the Island’s members? Controller-Designate in the event of emergency. He is, much more import­ iIt was agreed. antly I would say, extremely well versed — I would say there are few CIVIL DEFENCE COMMISSION — other members of Tynwald better quali­ MEMBERS ELECTED fied and knowledgeable of Civil Defence matters than the hon. member con­ The Governor : Item number 15. cerned. I refer, of course, to the hon. Mr. Radcliffe : In accordance with and gallant member for Middle. It Section 1 of the Civil Defence Act 1954, seems to me, at a time when hon.

Weights and Measures (Testing and Adjustment Fees) Regulations — Approved.— Civil Defence Commission — Sir Henry Sugden elected as Chairman.—Civil Defence Commission — Members Elected. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T165

members of Tynwald are rather Mr. Kerruish : Your Excellency, I stretched on their membership of the beg to move:— bodies which it is necessary to cover, that here we have a situation where WHEREAS on the 22nd October 1975 three hon. members are in fact required Tynwald resolved, inter alia, that a to attend, although only statutorily two Committee (tc be designated the Dec­ need. I only put the idea forward for laration of Members’ Interests Com­ consideration at the appropriate time. mittee) be constituted comprising the First Deemster (Chairman), one Mem­ The Governor : Is that agreed? ber of Council elected by Council and It was agreed. three Members of the Keys elected by the Keys to supervise the compilation, maintaining and accessibility of the Register of Members’ Interests, to con­ LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD — sider any specific complaints made in CLASSIFICATION OF ROADS IN relation to the registering or declaring PORT ERIN — APPROVED of interests, and to report, from time to The Governor: Item num ber 16. I time to Tynwald, on these and any call upon the Chairman of the Isle oi other matters relating to members’ Man Local Government Board. interests. Mr. R adcliffe: Your Excellency, I AND WHEREAS it is expedient that beg to move :— the composition of such Committee be That Tynwald approves the addition varied. of the following roads to the Schedule RESOLVED: That in accordance with of Classified Roads in the X'illage of Standing Order 184 the Committee Port Erin— consist of two Members of Council Close Fam m an 300 m etres Class III sleeted by Council and three Members Close Cornell 159 m etres Class III of Keys elected by the Keys. Close Can 240 m etres Class III Your Excellency, consequent upon The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. the resolution of Tynwald of the 22nd members? October, the Branches have elected their It was agreed. representatives to the Declaration of Members’ Interests Committee. The Keys’ representatives are the hon. Mr. Speaker, the hon member for Douglas SUPPLEMENTARY AGENDA East Mr. Irving, and the hon. member MEMBERS’ INTERESTS COMMITTEE: for Ramsey Mr. Hislop. I have the APPOINTMENT OF A COUNCIL privilege of representing the Legislative MEMBER TO REPLACE FIRST Council on the Committee. In con­ DEEMSTER — APPROVED formity with Standing Orders, a meet­ ing of the Committee was held on the The Governor : We have arranged to 10th instant. All the hon. members I take Petitions at 4.30 p.m., hon mem­ have mentioned were present, as was bers, so that leaves one item on the also His Honour the First Deemster. Supplementary Agenda, and I call upon His Honour explained to the Committee the hon. member of Council, Mr. Ker- the point which lie had already made ruish. in a communication which he had Mr. K erruish: Your Excellency, I addressed to Your Excellency, namely, beg to move :— that his appointment as Chairman of That permission be granted under the Committee might impair the legal Standing Order 27(6) for t'm following redress open to any hon. member business to be considered. agreed by a decision of the Committee, and His Honour expressed the view The Governor; Is thai agreed? that it was not in the general interests It was agreed. of Tynwald that either of Her Majesty’s

Local Government Board — Classification of Roads in Port Erin — Approved. Supplementary Agenda Members’ Interests Committee: Appointment of a Council Member to Replace First Deemster — Approved. T166 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

Deemsters should serve on the Com­ siderably longer than originally en­ mittee. The Committee were grateful visaged. The expected two months for the advice tendered 'by the learned period has grown to nine months, but Deemster, and upon consideration un­ we have in the interim reported on animously decided to inform Your Ex­ two occasions to this hon. Court. Taking cellency that they recommended that a our cue both from the Committee of ■further representative of the Legis­ Inquiry’s Report and from the com­ lative Council to be elected by the ments and reactions of hon. members Legislative Council should be appointed and the general public, we cannot in accordance with Standing Order escape the conclusion that Manx Radio, No. 184, to m ake the m em bership of if it is to continue, must be capable the Committee to five. This is the sub­ of being heard throughout the Isle of stance of the resolution now before this Man. Goodness knows, the Island’s hon. Court, and I beg to move. total resident population is small The Speaker : I beg to second, Your enough in terms of local radio viability, Excellency. without denying a significant proportion of the potential audience the ability to The Governor : Is that agreed, hon. listen to iManx Radio. It is therefore members? the cornerstone of our thinking that ■It was agreed. top priority should be given to improv­ ing reception, so far as is technically possible, to ensure that all who are FURTHER REPORT OF SELECT presently subsidising the station may COMMITTEE ON FUTURE OF have an equal opportunity to hear its MANX RADIO — programmes. At present, Manx Radio RECOMMENDATION 2(a) REFERRED broadcasts on the medium frequency TO BROADCASTING COMMISSION on 188 and 232 metres from a single FOR REPORT transmitter sited at Foxdale. By reason The Governor: Hon. members, that of limitations imposed by licence on takes us back to Item No. 10 on the the power of these transmissions, main Agenda. I call upon the Chairman coupled with the associated problem of of the Select Committee. interference from adjoining stations, Mr. C lucas: Your Excellency, I beg especially after dark, certain areas of to move :— the Island are not covered by M.F. transmissions. As a result of discussions That the Further Report of the Select which the Committee had with the Committee on the Future of Manx Home Office, the D irectorate of Radio Radio- be adopted. Technology are presently exploring the Last February, Tynwald debated the possibility of a more suitable frequency Report of the Committee of Inquiry which, while still avoiding undue spil­ into Manx Radio which was dated lage into significant areas of the United October 1974. This Report, which had Kingdom, would produce a better re­ been commissioned in M arch 1974, con­ ception pattern in the Island itself. tained a number of far-reaohing pro­ However, as was foreshadowed in my posals, but by reason of the relatively statement to this hon Court last July, short time at that Committee’s disposal, a Frequency Planning Conference it found itself unable to cost several of opened in Geneva last month to deter­ its more important recommendations. mine the future of long and medium It was not surprising, therefore, to find wave broadcasting in most parts of the Tynwald reluctant to commit itself to world for the next 25 years or more. any apparently open-ended commit­ The Conference, in which some 120 ment, and the decision was taken to countries are taking part, has been appoint a Select Committee to consider convened under the auspices of the the findings of the Committee of the International Telecommunication Inquiry, and in particular to ascertain Union, and is endeavouring to prepare their likely cost. For reasons which I a frequency plan for stations presently shall explain, our work has taken con­ in service or planned in the future.

Further Report of Select Committee cn Future of Manx Radio.—Recommendation 2(a) Referred to Broadcasting Commission for Report. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T167

This is a daunting, not to say impossible the Home Office D irectorate of Radio task, but its importance for us lies Technology, senior engineering officials in the fact that until the ¡Conference of the B.B.C.’s transmitter group, our comes to a decision any re-allocation of own consultants Aerial Facilities, and a medium frequency channel for Manx Mr. Ewan Leeming, chief engineer of Radio, is most unlikely. Irrespective Manx Radio, are all united in recom­ of this, two points should be borne in mending the extension of V.H.F. trans­ mind. One that as the number of sta­ missions as the logical step to be taken tions broadcasting on M.F. increases, now by Manx Radio. The reasons for the problem of interference levels from this are not difficult to understand. continental stations after dark would Firstly, V.H.F. operates on a line of become more intolerable to Manx site basis; it is ideally suited to the Radio listeners. Two, it would be an Island’s difficult topography, and there impossible task, even with power in is no risk of spillage. Secondly, virtually excess of lOk.w.’s, to ga'.n all-island all the radio sets purchased today incor­ coverage on M.F. with a single trans­ porate the facility for receiving V.H.F. mitter. That is medium wave. The other broadcasts; thus, if one were to know alterative is to employ very high fre­ the number of V.H.F. sets on the Island quency transmissions. At present Manx last week such knowledge would Radio provides a VjH.F. service by already be out of date; the figures means of transmitters having direction­ would almost inevitably be higher this al aerials sited at the summit of Snae- week. Thirdly, the quality of reception fell and on Douglas Head. To a very on V.H.F. far exceeds anything obtain­ large extent these transmissions dupli­ able on M.F., and on this count alone cate the area covered by M.F. trans­ we have a duty to ensure that what missions, but the Committee is advised money is spent on improving reception that by re-siting the Douglas Head is spent wisely, and on a system that transmitter at Carnane, coverage would has all the indications of a long-term be extended to St. John’s and improved future. I said earlier that Manx Radio in ‘Peel and the Southern part of the must be capable of being heard Island. Your Committee has examined throughout the Island if it is to con­ the possibility a separate V.H.F. aerial. tinue. It is significant that at no time As you will see from 'page eight of the during the deliberations of either the Further Report considerable savings Committee of Inquiry or the present can be effected if this course of action Select Committee, has there been- any can be progressed. It is, however, im­ expression of the view that Manx Radio portant to note that this facility would should cease operations. Like the Com­ not ,be available once the B.B.C. have mittee of Inquiry we, too, are impressed completed the design and planning of with the support for the station’s con­ their new U.H.F. installation due to be tinuance, as evidenced by their incorporated on their mast shortly. In audience research in 1974. The other this connection I would like very much burning question of the hour, so to to pay tribute ito the extremely helpful speak, is whether the Government attitude adopted by the various B.B.C. should run Manx Radio as a public officials with whom we have dealt service, or whether programming should either directly or through Aerial Facil­ be delegated on a franchise basis, or ities Ltd. That is V.H.F. switching from indeed, whether it could not be a Douglas Head to Carnane. Adding an mixture of the two. Here I must refer additional sm all station at iWest Kim- hon. membeis to my statement of the meragh in Bride would cover all the 8th July, and confirm that there is no Island north of a line from Kirk change in the Committee’s view on this Michael in the West to Port Mooar in point. The situation must be progressed the East. The Committee has gone to step by step, and the proposals now considerable lengths to satisfy itself before hon. members will be entirely on this question of V.H.F. coverage, unaffected by future decisions on the and it is refreshing to report that the mode of operation. Should private technical (people consulted, including enterprise operate the station, Govern­

Further Report of Select Committee on Future of Manx Radio.—Recommendation 2(a) Referred to Broadcasting Commission for Report. T168 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 ment must ensure in any operative opinion most importantly, was a cor­ agreement that it is properly recom­ porate re-structuring of the station or pensed for the capital injected the company to pave the way for a into Manx Radio. If, on the other franchise. Also they recommended as hand, Government operates the station being most important, that finance as a public service, it will still require should be forthcoming from Govern­ the tools to do the job. What we are ment to provide a better new service. now recommending in essence is a Their alternative recommendations were policy decision toy Tynwald. It will still — they wanted some high level staff toe necessary for a financial resolution appointments, they wanted increases in to toe brought before this hon. Court. salaries to realistic figures, they wished This policy decision toy Tynwald is for an application to be made for the necessary so that those who are respon­ use of 301 metres on up to 5 k.w.’s, and sible for it, those who work for it, and they wanted a new frequency modu­ those who listen to it, and/or subsidise lated translator at Bride to improve the it, will know that Manx Radio has » Ramsey signal. They also called for an future and that Tynwald has faith in island V.H.F. survey. They required it. I foeg to move. the up-dating of station promotion and The Speaker : Your Excellency, I beg advertising; they required improving to second and reserve my remarks. the station equipment; they wished to provide hourly news bulletins includ­ The Attorney General : Your Excel­ ing United Kingdom news and world lency, I think at this stage I would like news, and they wanted the necessary to confirm what the hon. member for staff so to do. They recommended that Ayre has said in regard to the reference they, the Committee, should oversee in the recommendation; I think it is their proposed changes, in fact, they Recommendation 2(b) on page 9 of the should stay in office. Upon the fore­ Report, that in my view Select Com­ going recommendations the Select — mittees of Tynwald are entitled in their Dr could I now call it the “Clucas Reports to recommend the outlay of Committee” were asked to consider pulblic money for the purpose specified and make recommendations. They have in the Report without the concurrence '.'ecommended in the recommendations of Finance Board. The reason being before you that indeed Manx Radio that the recommendation, in this case, should be developed and improved, it Recommendation 2(b) on page 9, is one should be extended with an improve­ in principle only and is not binding ment of the service to the cost of on the action of Tynwald. The position £130,000 for the moment, that such ex­ therefore is that members of Tynwald tensions and improvements shall be today are entitled to vote for the adop­ primarily on V.H.F., and that they tion of the whole of the Select Com­ should continue in office. If we look at mittee’s Report and recommendations, the recommendations of the “White Re­ with the knowledge that before any sort” again in the same order, the expenditure can actually toe incurred, Broadcasting Commission, as such, are that concurrence would toe required .lot averse to considering and going in­ from Your Excel'ency’s Finance Board, to detail with respect to a possible and the money resolution of Tynwald. franchise arrangement. We have at Mr. Quayle : Your Excellency, I do least three contenders to whom we not propose to go into a long and com­ could talk, out of whom possible good plex history of Manx Radio this morn­ could come, but it will be appreciated ing, or even to refer at any length to that we have not been able to move at the recent debates of December 1973 all in this matter while two successive and February 1975. The best starting Committees considered our affairs. point, I think, is to look at the recom­ Secondly, we agree the need for a bet­ mendation of the Committee of In­ ter news service, while not necessarily quiry, or may I call it the “White agreeing with the method of finance as Committee”. They recommended firstly suggested by the “White Committee”. that in their opinion, and in their Three, we rather shy at high level pro-

Further Report of Select Committee on Future of Manx Radio.—Recommendation 2(a) Referred to Broadcasting Commission for Report. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T169

J gramme directors and the like. These j application to his job of the Chairman, are no doubt all right when one has j well known for his terrier-like pursuit B.B.C. licence fees to fall back on, but for information. Firstly, may I deal they are not so good in our case. with frequencies, or as they are gener­ Fourthly, salaries have indeed been ally expressed in this Report, wave­ increased, and so this recommendation lengths. At page 5 there is a reference has been carried out. Fifthly, we whole­ to interim improvements, which states, heartedly agree with the application as and I quote : “we wish to thank His suggested by “White” for their prim­ Excellency and Executive Council for ary requirement of a medium wave­ agreeing formally to approach the U.K. length higher up the scale, their sug­ Government for the adoption by Manx gestion of 301 is better than our pres­ Radio of 212 m etres until the outcome ent 232; the Commission, though, pre­ of the regional conference is clear”. No fer to see around 500 m etres as the consultation with the Broadcasting most ideal frequency. Sixthly, on Commission has taken place regarding station promotion, most of the ideas this action which in fact is considered in the “White Report” have been tried a backward step, and will not have the with varying success over the years. Commission’s support. This wavelength Seventh, the studio certainly needs up­ is at the edge of the band on most sets, dating in the way of tape recorders and and particularly on small transistors as equipment. We have not been in a pos­ carried by our visitors; it will be mushy ition to purchase such equipment while and difficult of reception. No movement we would have liked to, because we down the waveband would be favoured have been in a vacuum, but we now by the Commission. Indeed, up to 500 would hope that the amount for such metres or thereabouts would be ideal, re-equipping would become a matter of but if this were unobtainable then 301, budgetting. Eight and last, we are not the first priority of the “White Com­ averse to hourly news bulletins, but we mittee”, is eminently more desirable have distinct reservations on re-broad­ than 212. In passing, I would be inter­ casting United Kingdom and world ested to know where this wavelength news to the Manx listening audience. suggestion originated. It is the first we So much for “White”. What now can I have heard of it, and akin to the fol­ say concerning the ‘ Clucas Report”. lowing V.H.F. suggestions, seems to There are two statements in the Report bear the mark of Whitehall thinking in with which the Commission whole­ that “thou shalt neither be seen nor heartedly concur. The first is that heard.” The following paragraph then Manx Radio tshould continue as the conlains what the Commission con­ Manx Radio service, and thus we agree siders to be a fundamental error of with the sentiment expressed in part fact : “There is no diminution of signal 2 (a) of the recommendations. The strength during the hours of darkness. Broadcasting Commission is also heart­ The signal actually carries further, as ened by the Committee’s acknowledge­ is evidenced by the significant increase ment of the difficult task it, the Broad­ in stations receivable at this time. It casting Commission, has had in oper­ is this particular fact of a signal’s in­ ating Manx Radio; a difficulty which creased penetration during the evening has been heightened considerably over which contributes to the interference the last almost two years of investi­ with other transmissions on the same gation requiring the station to be kept frequency.” I have already mentioned ticking over with no firm policy and a lack of consultation which is particu­ well-publicised deterioration in staff larly regretted in view of the uncom­ relations due to such uncertainty. fortable level of expense envisaged, and From here on in I regret that I have the radical resolve towards V.H.F. to be critical of the Report, and I do orientation. The Chairman of the Sel­ this in the interests of good govern­ ect Committee in his statement to Tyn­ ment and, I hope, of the station. I wald on the 8th July last said that his acknowledge the work of the Commit­ Committee hoped to retain close rela­ tee as a whole, and in particular the tionship with the Broadcasting Corn-

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mission in framing its final Report. radios possessed have V.H.F. capacity, The Commission thinks, in the circum­ and perhaps even more important, in stances, it would have been fitting and what percentage is ¡it listened to as proper for such consultation to have against the listenership of medium taken place. It is the declaration of the wave. In the decision between medium future, almost totally dependent on frequency and V.H.F. the Report of the V.H.F., in which is found the main Crawford Committee on broadcasting area of criticism of this Report. Save coverage — this one, published last for a passing reference to interim im­ year, provides some interesting testi­ provement there is no allocation for mony. Here ithe national penetration extension of the medium frequency of V.H.F. sets in all homes is assessed service. It is acknowledged that V.H.F., at about 50%, which, although a rising witn its use of frequency modulation, figure, induces a different perspective produces reception of a high quality on the matter as well as being more and loses little in terms of night-time relevant than the sentational 90% coverage. Of course, in any transmis­ stated by “White”. Even so, these fig­ sion the higher the operational fre­ ures of possession cannot be taken to quency, the smaller the area covered reflect the actua] listening. As Craw­ for a transmitter of fixed .power. Con­ ford points out, they seem to show a sequently, it is the Commission’s view resistance to using the V.H.F. band. A that the easy accessibility of the number of reasons have been advanced medium band together with its ex­ for this low response, not the least of tended effective coverage outweighs which is the fact that only around 5% the case for V.H.F., as the vehicle of of car radios, for instance, have V.H.F. Manx Radio’s main service. The Report capacity. That is a national figure but bases its disposition towards V.H.F. on it is unlikely to vary in the Isle of the case presented by the “White Com­ Man. In 1970 the B.B.C. produced plans mittee’’ of Inquiry. However, there is for confining Radio 3 to V.H.F., and no evidence that that Committee in­ allocating the medium frequency so re­ tended V.H.F. to form the backbone of leased to assist elsewhere. The plan the station’s transmission. It recom­ had to be dropped in the face of mended improvement, but similarly, it mounting opposition even though, in pressed also for improvement on the terms of coverage, Radio 3’s V.H.F. medium wave. The Committee base service reached a greater proportion of their V.H.F. case specifically on pages the population. The popularity of 15 and 18 of the “White Report”, but medium frequency listening, however, they ignore the earlier and therefore is not restricted to national broadcast­ pre-eminent statement on page 14, ing, as it is obvious from a look at the which says : “The Island requires history of local radio stations in Brit­ medium wave channel, free from re­ ain. When the B.B.C. local stations be­ strictive broadcasting times . . and gan operating around 1967, they broad­ at the top of page 15 before mention of casted first on V.H.F. only, though it V.H.F. : “The Committee therefore re­ soon became evident that parallel ser­ commends that an approach should be vices on the medium band were made to the Home Office asking for a needed, and again quoting from the change in frequency to 301, and for per­ Crawford Report : “The addition of mission to operate Manx Radio on a medium frequency transmissions has power equivalent to that of both B.B.C. made a considerable difference to the and I.B.A. local radio stations.” The success of the B.B.C. stations”. The in­ ‘White Committee’' of Inquiry dependent stations now being intro­ stated that their own research duced operate similarly on both bands. had revealed that approximately Even after taking into account the ex­ 90 per cent of all radios now sold are pansion round Britain of stereophonic capable of receiving V.H.F., but as the broadcasting, which is available only Broadcasting Commission has pointed on V.H.F., Crawford still concludes, out many times before, the relevant “As long as the national networks and statistics are what percentage of all the “opt out” programmes in the

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national regions remain available on get the signal either on medium wave either long, medium as well as V.H.F. or V.H.F. and a further 18 complained it seems unlikely that there will be a of the very poor reception. It will then big swing to V.H.F. listening.” What I from this survey be observed that of have ju st fceen, quoting is som ew hat these figures over 71% are medium technical and does, of course, apply to wave listeners. We observe that in the the case in the U.K. Its main value is Douglas area where one would expect to spotlight the mistake of putting all high V.H.F. listening, the figure is quite the eggs in the V.H.F. basket, but we low, undoubtedly due to the heavy are concerned with listenership in the overshadowing by the B.B.C. It will be Isle of Man. With our medium wave observed that reception in Ramsey on transmitter and our existing V.H.F. both channels requires attention and back-up we are covering most of the this we would like to do something Island, admittedly with a signal that about. I would not wish to complete is not as strong as we would wish and my summary of the Report without admittedly with areas of poor and very making reference to the statement on poor reception. With knowledge of this page 6 regarding Manx Radio’s success debate on this particular Report and under private enterprise as far as fin­ the likelihood of the listenership to ance is concerned. In fact the Station Manx Radio on medium wave as did not have one profit year under against very high frequency being ger­ private enterprise and in the period mane to such debate and for the in­ 1964/1967 when it was privately owned terest of Members in coming to any it lost £25,000. Under the early Gov­ conclusion the Commission organised a ernment years it made small profits field enquiry during the period the 3rd each year. All the annual balances to the 14th of this month, if as Mr. were contained in the speech of the Clucas said even figures last week could Vice-Chairman of the Commission in be out of date, these are actually fig­ Tynwald on the 18th of February last, ures last week, the 3rd to the 14th of page T 572 of the debate and I am su r­ this month. We sent an experienced prised the Committee did not take note canvasser, not in the Station employ, of them. Recommendations -— these are to call on a hundred houses in Peel and in effect the end product of some 22 area, a hundred houses in Ramsey and months’ deliberation and they offer area, similarly in Castletown and area Tynwald a stark choice, to authorise a and Port St. Mary, Port Erin and area; heavy programme of capital expendi­ in Cnchan we allocated two hundred ture which, as the Report states on page houses and in Douglas three hundred 3, is only the initial cost and is not houses, roughly to get some cross- •¡supported with an indication of the section as against the population. The I future revenue implications or nothing. result was as follows — in Peel and 'Such a choice might be justified where area listening on medium wave there ; recommendations are begot from in­ were 74, on V.H.F. 18; in Ram sey and escapable conclusions, but as I have area listening on medium wave ther“ tried to indicate the Broadcasting Com­ w ere 62, on V.H.F. 20; in Castletown mission regards the findings of this and area listening on medium wave Report as being far from conclusive. there were 70 and on V.H.F. 29: Port The prospect of expenditure at this St. Mary, Port Erin on medium wave level can only contribute to an over­ 72, on V.H.F. 26; in Onchan 114 listen­ view of disillusionment in the future ing on medium wave, 63 on V.H.F.; in of the Station and those who have to Douglas and Willaston 229 on medium run it. All Island coverage is of course wave, 92 on V.H.F. There are miscel­ essential but the means to achieve this laneous calls which did not fall strictly are already held and coupled by the into any of these areas which gave a Commission’s view that the medium figure of 17 medium wave, 6 V.H.F. frequency should provide the main ser­ In passing our survey picked up what vice into the foreseeable future and the was known to us in addition some 27 argument comes back once more to in­ people in Ramsey stated they could not creased power. Such has been stressed

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for many years, such has been en­ Manx Radio Station here in the first dorsed by the Committee of Enquiry place. He and I were present when Mr. and such in fact has been proved to do Henry Brooke, the tiien Home Secre­ the job on the occasion of the Royal tary, and Mr. Reginald Bevins, the Visit and in testing. It is now generally then Postmaster General, conceded accepted that for Manx Radio to con­ that there could be a commercial tinue some degree of Government sub­ radio station in the Is e of Man, albeit sidy will be necessary and all con­ with very littls power. He and I too clusions seem to indicate that the last have observed a growing realisation by thing the people of the Isle of Man w.sh the British Government that they were is for it to go off the air. It is the very sorry that they had ever allowed Commission’s opinion that any injec­ us to start in the first place. Further­ tion of public money should be under more it had become perfectly obvious the administration of a Government that many of those with whom Island department and strongly urges there­ representatives speak, however charm­ fore that the Station’s present state of ing these characters may be, however suspension can now be brought to an patent may be their attempt to assist, end and decisions taken to enable the in 'act their determination is to Commission as a responsible arm of deslroy. The recommendation, I Government to address the future on a believe, o:f going into V.H.F. has been a credible level of vision and expense. I constant cry from the gentlemen in have tried in these remarks to keep Whitehall and still more their inspira­ entirely to the main principles involved tion in the B.B.C. because most of the and to be as brief and simple on a exposition which comes to our station subject of some complexity as I can. here, Your Excellency, I believe is As I move the amendment, or at least inspired and prodded into action by the substitution on behalf of the the British Broadcasting Corporation Broadcasting Commission which is itss'f, the doyen of monopolies who “That only recommendation 2(a) on hate to see any opposition, be it ever so page 9 of the Further Report of the smaP. However, I have been involved Select Committee on the Future of ever many years in the search for new Manx Radio be adopted, and Tynwald, freauencie?. I have discussed with being of the opinion that improve­ both members of the British Govern­ ments of the services of Manx Radio ment, the Home Office those very are desirable, instructs the Broadcast­ helpful creatures, sir, as well as repre­ ing Commission to prepare a costed sentatives of the B.B.C., in a search for schedule for submission to Executive frequencies. Any number of frequen­ Council and, if approved, subsequently cies, Your Excellency, over the years to be embraced in a money vote for have been proposed, have been dis­ the approval of Tynwald.” It may be cussed and have been rejected as being in Members’ minds to have some idea unusable, not available, and yet when of the Commission’s thinking and what it became apparent, as the hon. Chair­ the Commission would do and in this man of the Commission has told us, context I am sure that the Vice- that the local stations to be run by the Chairman of the Commission, who is B.B.C. were not going to be succes:ful responsible for the running of the with V.H.F. what were the frequencies Station will be pleased to answer. I that were made available to them, sir? thank members for their patience and Those very frequencies that Manx attention. Radio had asked to use and which they were assured, not merely by officials, Mr. Simcock?: Your Excellency, I not merely by politicians, but by tech­ share with the bon. member who has nical experts who, with their hands on just sat down the somewhat doubtful the^'r hearts, told us that they were not honour of having once been a Director available. Therefore, sir, I am sure that of R ac’lo Manx Ltd. With him, {there­ we should not make the mistake of fore, I can speak of the events which taking too much notice of these led rfco the original establishment of a gentlemen who have been so helpful

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and so pleasant to the ‘‘Clucas Commis­ United Kingdom Government and sion”. I would say that it would be turning up the wick or forgetting the much better to depend on those Mem­ possibility of ever making the Station bers who, hardened by bitter experience a viable commercial undertaking. As as I claim to have been, will know to no-one seemed keen on supporting the what extent notice should be taken of idea of turning the wick up, the only lecommendations which, however much alternative was for Government to they may appear to be helpful, are sub idise the Station. By the beginning really nothing ol the kind. I am certain oi 1973 the Broadcasting Commission that what we should do is to revert to had come to the conclusion that the proper proceedings — we are a Tyn wald had to make up its mind once Government which runs on the Board and for all whether it wanted Manx system, the Broadcasting Commission Radio to continue and, if so, to face up is in effect a Board, we have insulted to the financial consequences. The it twice by appointing Commissions to Civa’.rman, Mr. Quayle, set about pre­ investigate 'the activities for which it paring a resolution to put the facts and was created, and 1 think we should a lernatives to the Court at the March accept their amendment and let them 1973 Tynwald. It was then that the get on with the job, not only a job for hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Clucas, which we have appointed them buit the steposd in with his resolution in job which experience over the years Feb uary 1973 calling for an Enquiry has. made them peculiarly suitable to on the management and general prin­ carry out. ciples governing Manx Radio. After a relatively short debate the resolution The Governor: Do you second the was adjourned for eight months until amendment, hon. member of Council? October 1973. I have just read the Mr. Simcocks: I have not done, no, debates of these two meetings of sir. I am sure there is another hon. Tynwald which we know resulted in member to my left who will do that. the sett'.ng up of the Committee of Experts. We know also that because of Mr. Knea e: I rise to second the Tynwald’s anxiety about the cost of amendment, sir. It was in October 1965 implementing that Committee’s recom­ that I was appointed to the Broadcast­ mendation, a new Committee under the ing Commission under the Chairman­ Chairmanship of the hon. memiber for ship of the hon. member of Council, Mr. Ayre, Mr. Clucas, was set up to Bolton. From that date I have been examine their Report. I have waited Vice-Chairman to four different impatiently for that Committee to Chaiimen, Mr. Bolton, Mr. Mac­ report, for the continuing delays did Donald, Mr. Crellin and Mr. Quayle, not help staff relations, and as the and they all seem to finish member in close contact with the staff up in this corner of the Court. You had I have had an uncomfortable summer better cocr.e and join us. D uring the with Union involvement. I was hoping past few years I have been very much for a Report from' this Committee involved in the -day-to-day running of that would have made all the frustra­ Manx Radio. I am not going to claim tion and worry worthwhile. To say I i’nat I have enjoyed myself in this role. am disappointed with their Report is With each of these four Chairmen I to put it mild y. It is obvious that they have travelled back and forward to have realised that the problem is not Lc-ndon to the Home Office and other as easy as seme of them may have U.K. Government departments, trying thought and they have appreciated the to get more power for Manx Radio but frustration of the Broadcasting Com- without success. I have experienced ten m:ssion over the years. It is also years of absolute frustration. A long obvious that they real'se that the main time ago I realised the futility of these consideration in improving ithe Station journeys and advised Tynwald on is the influx by Tynwald of a large sum several occasions that they had to face of money for capital improvement, but up to the situation of either defying the they have not given any indication of

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the running costs oi the Station. My kilowatts Island directional should not Chairman has dealt in detail with the be aiking too much, and our present Broadcasting Commission’s unanimous medium transmitter is capable of opinion of the proposal to spend achieving this and more. The Snaefell £130,000 on V.H.F. transmission. At V.H.F. transmitter is only. living on least half the population have not got borrowed time and wag overdue for sets which can receive the V.H.F. replacement two years ago. This signal. I consider that Mr. Clucas’s requires to be replaced without delay. resolution of February 1973 has The 'cost for this will be around £7,000. resulted in a further three wasted A new V.M. translator recommended years. The Station has been operating by “White” at the Bride site is needed in a state of limbo during this period to .give Ramsey coverage, -again this and costs have risen to an alarming would cost us about £7,000. Repairs degree. Mr. Quayle has mentioned the and improvements at Douglas Head, as interest of outside parties in obtaining referred to in the “White Repont” and a concession to operate Manx Radio. which we, -as a Broadcasting Commis­ One of the people with whom we had sion, had plans -drawn up for many discussions recently referred to the years ago, -would cost in the region of suggestion to spend £130,000 on £15,000. The repairs at Foxd-ale, the V.H.F. as absolute nonsense and made transmitting bui'.ding—it needs a new it quite clear they were only interested roof and ceiling and a toilet. That if the Medium Wave was the mainstay would cost in the region of £5,000. We of our transmitting policy. Whereas we urgently need equipment at the on the Broadcasting Commission are studios, turntables, tape-recorders, por­ highly critical of this Report from the table recorders and line equipment. “Clucas Committee”, we agree with These have been allowed, through lack them on the fundamental belief that of finance, to deteriorate and they are Government has got to be prepared to now becoming worn out. This means put a considerable amount of money an involvement of about £51,000 in into Manx Radio to improve the cap-ital expenditure. The main consid­ service, and unless Tynwald is pre­ erations of improving the programme pared to agree to that without further content is to improve the news service de'ay we might just as well pack up. which at present is inadequate. We As regards the spending of this money believe that by employing our own we would like to make some sugges­ reporting staff, as we had in the past, tions so that Tynwald will have an that for an extra £2.000 or £3.000 we alternative line of thought to that could provide a good news service. We contained in the Report which has been also need to look at the sales depart­ laid bsfore us today. We believe that ment. We are operating at the moment Manx Radio is part of our Island life on one sales representative. It is and must, if at all financially possible, impossible to carry out the work of r.'ay with us, with as great a listener- this department with one person, we sh-ip as possible. The present relatively need the service of at least one more new medium: wave transmitter should sales representative to overcome this still be the main signal output, cer­ problem. As regards o-u:r trading tainly on a new wavelength much account, and looking at the year ending higher, if possible, than we have at the M arch 1975, it showed an expenditure m om ent; 301, as suggested by “W hite” of £60.000 and income of £45,000, a is b etter than w hat we have got; 500, shortfall of £15,000. This year the as my Chairman has already stated, bi.ggest single item in increase will be would be more ideal. In the worst salaries which will increase by some degree we must not, under any circum­ £11,000. Our total wage bill, with stances, allow ourselves to go down overtime, wi'l be in the region of below what we have already got, the £40,000. Taking other expenses at the 232 — we should fight to hold on to 232. same -rate of inflation as 1974 and I will not go into the question of power 1975, these will add some £5,000 to last butt the “W hite” recom m endation of five year's figure and give a total running

Further Report of Select Committee c-n Future of Manx Radio.—Recommendation 2(a) Referred to Broadcasting Commission for Report. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T175 cost of £76,000. Receipts to the 31st of except the knowledge that the sugges­ October just past are £36,000, and if tion that emanated from the Chairman the remaining period of November of the Broadcasting Commission this 1975 to Miarch 1976 produces the same morning is a non-starter and that is as last year, that is around £20,000, our that this Station will get increased total receipts will toe £56,000, leaving a power with which to broadcast out shortfall of £20,000. An alternative to from this Island. It will not. It is as cur present licence should be applied, simple .as that, and from that fact there for without delay. At the .moment we :s no douibt that this Committee which are licensed to use 232 metres for the is reporting to you today has gone on period of one hour after sunrise and to establish as far as it possibly could until one hour before sunset. At this what is the best format for any period, October to March, we have to Station in this Island to take and what go off the air at 4.30 or before. This is are the obligations that will face this a loss at our peak commercial time Court if a Station is to continue in when our advertising rates are the operation at a.i. I think very rightly highs-st. An application could well be the Committee have come forward and m ade for an extension to the 6.15 news sard to Tynwald, irrespective of who time. We believe that to extend beyond will operate the Station, be it private that is of little use because people tend enterprise or Government, there is one to turn over to television .at that time. fact that you have to face up to. If this The Broadcasting Commission feels Station is going to operate, and let us that expenditure along the lines that I forget about the shoestrings of the past have suggested would be more appro­ ar.d the inability and the breakdowns, priate than that suggested in the and the whole sorry mess of the past, “Clucas Committee” Report. il the Station is to operate in a reason­ The Speaker: Your Excellency, I able manner to serve the people of have no doubt that hon. members will this Island, then Government miust put perhaps ‘be somewhat confused after in a certain sum of money to ensure hearing the varying points of view that this shall be done. In the opinion which come from one section of the of that Committee it is also a fact that they believe that the people of this Court and from another. When you Island ibelieve it to be a desirable thing hear reference to the fact that this to do to have a radio station of their Court has insulted the Broadcasting own and it is also in the interests of Commission twice by the appointment Government to have a radio station of first oif all of the “White Committee” their own operating in this Island. We and secondly of the “Clucas Commit­ have been totd about reports and wave­ tee” you will perhaps realise that this lengths and so on, but there is one may be reflected to a certain extent in inescapable factor—we have been told the statements we have heard this about Whitehall attitudes. The present morning from the Broadcasting Com­ suggestion with regard to medtium mission and, in their endeavours to put wave did not emanate from Whitehall, forward an alternative to the one that it emanated from. Aerial Facilities Ltd. has been put before you by the The advice that we received, and I am Committee that you elected to investi­ a member of this Committee so I make gate this problem. I have been connec­ no bones about the fact that we have ted with this broadcasting issue ever received professional advice and, in since the question was first mooted and fact we were obliged to, the advice we I would say to hon. members this have received and paid fo*' is counter morning that it is no use looking back to that produced to you this morning on .the past, the past has been full of on a field survey by one person trotting mistakes, everything was well-inten­ around the Island with a notebook tioned. There may be mistakes in the asking questions of people who may or future, but if Manx Radio is to con­ may not know whether they have tinue then you have got to wipe out got a V.H.F. or an M.F. receiver them­ everything that happened in the past selves. You have a situation where you

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■have to weigh uip the two sets of million. It is perhaps heartbreaking and evidence that are placed before you ironic that after all these years some today. Recriminations about the past of us must reluctantly face the fact are not going to help us out of a situa­ that we cannot turn up the wick. O.K., tion in which we find ourselves and I that is the position, but we also must 'would say neither would reference to face the fact that if our people who Reports such as Crawford, which is enjoy Manx Radio are to continue to ¡based entirely on English listening receive it. if our people who at the .factors, be of any value in the Isle of moment cannot get Manx Radio are to Man. We have had the position in the enjoy it in the future, then we have Isle of Man assessed and our conclu­ got to put up this form of money and sions are entirely different to the this is the sort of thing that the Commission, but I do not take any Committee had to establish, your exception to the Commis::on putting ¡willingness, your willingness, make no up a rearguard action on this one. I mistake about this, it is your willing­ can understand their point of view but ness to harjg on to a Manx Station and I do not accept it. Let us remember to pay for it through the revenues of Ahat we are the people who were put in this Island initially provided. There to look at the Report that reported on are people who would wish to rent it, the Commission in the first place, and there are people who have already to come to some conclusions and bring withdrawn, but the fact remains that them to this Court. We have been told that is to be decided in the future. No 'about profits, lack of profits and matter what else, Government has to inescapable conclusions and so on. I establish this Station and I would have mentioned power, you cannot put emiphasi-e this point, Your Excellency. power. There is just the one point I The whole future, the continuation of think that we will have ito face this (Manx Radio, whether you are receiving morning and it is not wavelengths, it it at the moment or not, it cannot go is not tattles with Whitehall, it is on as it is. It must have an infusion nothing like that. Do you want Manx in this form, a cash infusion, at a Radio? Simply that. A functioning ¡reasonable date and the decision, hon. Station. Our figures may vary slightly ¡members, is yours. Manx Radio at this from these put forward by the Vice- cost or fo’d up the Station and say Chairman of the Broadcasting Commis­ “Well that was a hitter experience”. sion but in point of fact he has endorsed many of the things that we M \ Bolton: I feel, sir, that it is are putting forward as to requirements incumbent on me at this moment to and whether or not it is operated by make some reference to the question private enterprise or Government does that was mentioned by the hon. not matter, the only way to achieve it member in moving the rerolution and is by Government acting in consultation ¡that is the question of the committing with the e authorities that can enable :i Tynwald to an expenditure of it to be dor.e in the cheapest possible £130,030 and obliquely, of course, to way, and this is where our assessment the fact that concurrence with the stems from. Hon. members, rather than original resolution was not given by ray you know this was wrong in the Finance Board. 1 do want to make an past, that was wrong in the past, today explanation, particularly in view of we have to say where are we going in letters which appeared in the local the future. Is it into the future with a ¡papers from the hon. Chairman of this reasonable sort of commercial radio Committee complaining that the set-up operating in the Isle of Man, matter should not ,be dealt with in a remembering that no B.B.C. enterprise “T reasury Office in Colditz” — these will come into the Isle of Man and were his exact words — but that the operate one for us? Indeed, perhaps we ficor of Tynwald Court was the place ■would not want them to, but even if in which these matters ought to be they were permitted to, the smallest decided. I do want to put this to you, listening audience is at least half a this Committee was determined to get

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this resolution through in the form in submitted in order to get on to the which it was to appear, not the form Tynwald Agenda for October 21st, it in Which it appears today. They were was intended that Tynwald should hoping that on the 21st day of commit itself on that date. We did October Tynwald would be committed endeavour, I may say, at a later date -to spending £130,000. The Report was ito accommodate the Committee at their only signed on the 6th of October. By own request by meeting them, but the 8th of October at breakfast time I because the meeting was to be held in received a copy of the Report. That Finance Board’s room only two mem­ morning I went to a meeting of the Finance Board and found that on the bers had the courtesy to turn up to the draft Agenda the resolution appeared. meeting. I -think that this is something No copy of the Report had been which should be said, because hon. received by mv colleague Mr. Devereau, 'members of Tynw ald m ust -have my other colleague Mr. Crellin was wondered just what was behind the absent from the Island and no copy of ■statements about the Treasury and the Repont had been sent to the Colditz which appeared in the Press. I Treasury, and it was quite obvious that think, sir, that I would like to indicate there was no intention to seek concur­ ■my view on this matter. We do have a rence. Finance Board had no option Broadcasting Commission which has but to say “We cannot give immediate been in operation for many years but I priority to the spending of £130,000 on understand that this Committee did Manx Radio when we realise fully all not see fit even to meet them to discuss the other matters which have to matters on which the Broadcasting receive the consideration of Tynwald . Commission has undoubtedly a great -So we said “No concurrence to this ■mass of information. They have come ■resolution u n til we know a good; deal forward with a suggestion that the more about it’’. This was Wednesday. Commission should ibe entirely ignored By Friday the letters appeared in the and that they, as a Select Committee, Press. Is this the way in which one should be empowered to spend £130,000 exicects responsible members of and to carry on with the development Tynwald to behave? They know— and, I assume, with the management. 'Surely this is something which is dis­ Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, may I courtesy to the Broadcasting Commis­ just clarify the position. I have never sion and apart from that is it not the written any letter to any insular news­ -height of foolishness to suggest such a paper on the subject of Manx Radio in thing when we have had the experience m y life. over the past few years of Select Mr. Bolton : Well then I am very Committees trying to manage any­ sorry, Your Excellency, I withdraw the thing? They did try to manage a Gas reference to a letter but I do stick to 'Works in that way and they failed. the statement that was made by the This is a suggestion which either is due hon. member-— to a lack of experience or an effort to Mr. Clucas: Statement, yes. get -on the bandwagon and do the job ourselves and listening to what -the Mr. Bolton: —and was reported in hon. Mr. Speaker has said, I do not the Press and I consider quite frankly 'believe for one minute that there was that this was equally as bad as writing any insult to the Broadcasting Commis­ letters. Certainly the hon. member had sion by the appointment of two Com­ it in at least two local papers within mittees to -consider this matter, but I less than 48 hours, 24 hours after do believe that there was discourtesy in this matter had appeared before the Committee not asking to meet the Finance Board. How he got to know in people who had been in charge and time to meet the Press I honestly do remain in charge o-f Manx Radio at the not know. I think that it should be present time. The hon. Mr. Speaker has made abundantly clear that in the ip-ut this point forward that we should form in which this resolution was realise that we cannot increase the

Further Report of Select Committee on Future of Manj^ Radio.—Recommendation 2(a) Referred to Broadcasting Commission for Report. T178 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 ipower of medium wave and conse­ giving the game away. As a member of quently we should go for V.H.F. Even the Committee I feel quite certain I if the medium wave cannot be stepped speak for every member of it when I up in power as Mr. Speaker says, why say there Was no game being played by suggest that we do something which this Committee. We were given a task the majority apparently do not want, which has bedevilled Tynwald for judging .by th e survey th a t has been many many years and we conscien­ -carried out by the Broadcasting Com­ tiously addressed ourselves to it with mission, -where we have something a view to bringing to this hon. Court a about 18 per cent of the people in the -solution which would be in the benefits Isle of Man who use V.H.F.? It is no not only to the Station itself, but the good pouring scorn on the survey and Island as a whole. To suggest there saying somebody went round with a were any ulterior motives behind any notebook — how does anyone ever ‘of the recommendations made by the make a survey except going round with Com m ittee is altogether -wrong and- a notebook? improper and I am surprised that the The Speaker: Tell us what the hon. member would have brought the -question war. You obviously know. debate down to a level by making such Mr. Belton: I do not know. I only insinuations. I make that point because know this, I only know this, that I am -I know the hon. Chairman of the ready to accept, I am ready to accept Committee particularly and all his1 from the Broadcasting Commission that colleagues on it have devoted a tremen­ they have made a survey and that they dous amount of time to this particular -have discovered, to their own satisfac­ problem, and to be talked about in tion, that these are the facts as far as what I consider a rather disparaging they can ascertain them. I am not way I think is altogether imnro-per and- prepared to get up and D our scorn on is one type of remark I am not them and say somebody went round lorep-ared to let go by unchallenged. I iwith a notebook simply because we think that although many references ‘want to get in and do the jo-b that have been made this -morning to the somebody else is doing and therefore fact that there is no need to go into we want to spend £130,000 and we the long history of Manx Radio, I want to get on with it. I think really think it is worthwhile going into one that Mr. Speaker did give -the game particular chapter in its long history away more or less in the last few words and that i= to look back on the day of his speech when he said “The ques­ when this Comlmittee whose Reoort we tion is ‘do you want Manx Radio?’ If so, ‘are now considering came into being. (give it to us”. Now this is the whole That was the day on which my hon. tenor of this Report and I really feel, friend -the m em ber for Avre, Mr. sir, that we can do no other, at least Radcliffe, the Chairman of Executive this is my view, but support the amend­ Council, tabled a resolution in Tynwald ment which has been submitted by the and the resolution said “That the Chairman of the Broadcasting Commis­ Report”-—-and he referred to the major sion, and that is -that the tenor of the Report ■=— “Whereas the Report of the Report as far as medium wave is Committee of Enquiry into Manx Radio concerned be accepted, but that the dated October 1974 w as laid before üeople who shall continue to implement Tynw ald on the 19th N ovember 1974, the decisions of Tynwald shall be the resolved: (1) that the Report be and the people who have been entrusted with same is hereby received. (2) That the it all along and with whom I think 'following recommendations contained, none of us have any quarrel. in the Report be implemented: (a) that Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, first Manx Radio’s assets currently owned of all, sir, I would- like to take excep­ by the Isle of Man Broadcasting tion to a latter remark made by the Commission be transferred to Radio hon. Chairman of Finance Board when ¡Manx Ltd; (b) that Radio Manx Ltd. he referred to the hon. Mr. Speaker be authorised to lease out the Manx

Fue-ther Report of Select Committee on Future of Manx Radio.—Recommendation 2(a) Referred to Broadcasting Commission for Report. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T179

Radio franchise to private enterprise on Tynwald Court is going to be respon­ such terms as may be approved by sible for the running of that Station at resolution of Tynwald.” I think this is th:s particular stage, no one else is a very important starting point to igoing to do it. It is no use looking notice because Tynwald did not accept towards the I.B.A. or the B.B.C., it is that proposition. Instead it appointed up to this particular Court to sponsor the Committee — what has been the Manx Radio Station and it is referred to as the “Clucas Committee” towards that end that our major —and this particular Committee found recommendations have been directed, that so far from anyone entering into iln the report we have put forward negotiations with private enterprise, to positive proposals for the future of the take an interest in or completely run Station. Admittedly it will cost money the Station it came very decisively to and it is because of the fact that there the conclusion that this was not the is an implication that Tynwald Court first priority. The first priority was to is committing itself to the expenditure see that th's Station was refurbished of a considerable amount of money that so that first of all we wou'd have all- we ran into certain difficulties as far as island coverage. We were convinced the tabling of this resolution is that no matter who was responsible for concerned. The spending of money on the running of the Station the first Manx Radio is not a new thing; inrjority was to ensure that the people already this year we have written off of this Island as far as was humanly deficits, I think, somewhere of the r'ossih’e and ohvs'cally possible could order of £25,000 and in the Budget, I hear Manv Radio because it has been think I am correct in this figure, we financed by the people of this Island have already made provision for a loss and we regarded that as the first on the Station of between £14,000 and priority. Secondly, we felt it had £15,000, but, sir, figures in my posses­ required only a somewhat cursory sion prove that the loss on this examination of the Station as it is to particular station this year is going to find out that much had to be done in be very much in excess of that. It is order to bring it up to standards that going to be — befitted a national station. Further­ A Member: No. more, this was a requisite if we were Mr. Kerruish ; Well, correct me, sir, successfully at some Doint down along but I have certain figures here that if the line to carry out any negotiations depreciation is taken into consider­ 'with any other party who might be ation as well as the loss — and interested in participating in this the accountant, the hon. Government operation. This was a view that was Treasurer, will not accept figures that put to us very forcibly by technical close their eyes to depreciation — the people and by people who had experi­ loss up to the end of, I think it is the ence on the managerial side. First of end of M arch 1975, will be 50 p er cent all before we wish to fan out into the higher than the figure included in the private enterprise sphere or try to Budget; it will be somewhere of the engaee participation by outside parties order of £22,000. It is no use anyone we should ensure that we had a worth­ choking on the idea of spending money while station within this Island, and on Manx Radio, we are already that is the major task to which this ■committed to it. We are putting ¡Committee has addressed itself. Much forward proposals which we believe cf what has been said this morning has embody the actual requirements finan­ really supported the views expressed cially to put this Station into a fit and in our report. There has been general proper state so that we will have all- acceptance of the fact that the Island island coverage and so that the wants a station, it wants a successful Station, both technically and adminis­ station to remain in being. On this tratively, will be in a position where point, sir, I think it might be said it has ■Government then could treat with ibeen made abundantly clear that unless outside entrepreneurs with a view to the Manx Government, unless this participating if Government thought

Further Report of Select Committee cm Future of Manx Radio.—Recommendation 2(a) Referred to Broadcasting Commission for Report. T180 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

fit. The first stage is to put it into a sion. You can depend, Your Excellency, ■proper state technically and adm inis­ that if we get the support of Tynwald, tratively. When we are putting forward as I sincerely hope we will do, we will recommendations on the V.H.F. angle, co-operate to the full with the Broad­ it is not just with a view to providing casting Commission. No other thought for the requirements of the day, our was in the minds of any member of the best advisors tell us that if we are to Committee. No other thought has ever look into the future this is definitely been in the -mind of any member of ths the line we wish to follow. What does Committee but this is a positive resolu­ the amendment say? I was very inter­ tion. The amendment means that we ested to read through this rather are simply putting back the clock carefully. It says that the only recom­ right back to square one again mendation, etc., etc., etc., . . . then it and no one will be able to 'goes on to say: “that Tynwald, being tell you what is the future of of the opinion that improvements of ■Manx Radio. The resolution as tabled the service of Manx Radio are desir­ by the Committee means that Tynwald, able, instructs the Broadcasting Com­ can show to the Island that we have mission to prepare a costed schedule ■made up our minds that we want the for submission to Executive Council radio station in this Island to continue. and”—these are the important words'— We want to continue it as a successful “if approved, subsequently to be station and we are prepared to spend ■embraced in a money vote for the public money in the interests of the approval of Tynwald”. With the pas­ public to enable that to be done. sage of that resolution, hon. members, we will have gone a full circle. We PETITION OF DOUGLAS started ofT when the Chairman of CORPORATION FOR SALE OF Executive Council tabled a resolution NOBLE BATHS — APPROVED ■emanating from Executive Council to The Governor: Hon. members, due defer this matter to Radio Manx Ltd. to a misunderstanding learned Counsel to treat with outside influences; now for the petitioners under item 17 has if we throw out the Report and the appeared in advance of the time set recomlmendations tabled by the hon. down so with the concurrence of the •member for Ayre, Mr. Clucas, we are Court I would ask the Chairman of the going to land back in Executive t ocal Government Board to move that Council again not committed to any­ Petition. thing positive, simply that we will consider further recommendations Mr. Radcliffe : Your Excellency, in being made to Executive Council, who respect of the Petition of the Mayor wi'l consider them and, if they aDprove Aldermen and Burgesses of the Bor­ them, then we may get another ough of Douglas for approval to the resolution back in Tynwald. Is this saga sale of the property comprising Shops, ■ever going to reach a positive point? Swimming Pool and Baths and known Aye, sir. it has here this morning. This as the Henry Bloom Noble Baths to report of the Committee puts Tynwald Neston Investments Limited for in a position where it is to say “We £31,000. I beg to move :— are treoared to spend money to create That the Prayer of the Petition be in this Island, to refurbish in this and the same is hereby granted. Island, to revitalise a really worthwhile Just to deal very briefly with this radio station.” The amendment tabled Petition hon. members will recall that by the hon. member does nothing but the property known as the Henry ■turn the clock full circle again and gn Bloom Noble Baths comprising shops, back to square one. I sav if Tynfwald swimming pool and baths formed the is to grasp this nettle, if it is to make subject of a previous petition in May uiD its mind at long last that we are 1971 when the petitioners then decided ■going to have a really worthwhile radio to sell this property to J. Marsland station in this Island, it ¡has got to Limited for £11,500. On that occasion, support the Committee on this occa­ on the recommendation of the Board,

Petition of Douglas Corporation for Sale of Nobles Baths — Approved, TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T181

the hon. Court rejected the petition as has been a bit of a blot on the land­ the price was considered to be insuffi­ scape for many years. I do say, Your cient and no information was available Excellency, that nothing deteriorates a regarding the proposed future use of tourist resort more than the setting up the site. The petitioners did not wish of more and more slot machine shops. to divide the property for sale, as was We have had them in Strand Street, suggested to them at that time, but in we have had them on the Promenade accordance with further advice given in various places, we have had them to them did pursue various possibilities round in the Onchan area and as the in consultation with the Board’s archi­ years go by these tend to become tect and planning officer. However, no grubby and horrible places. I would satisfactory scheme was formulated and hope that the entertainment centre that as the property was becoming derelict might be here might be something that the petitioners again offered it for sale. we might be proud of rather than a At first they failed to secure a satis­ mere repetition of another slot mach­ factory price but finally reached an ine arcade. Subject to those remarks, agreement with Neston Investments I would not wish to oppose this because Limited for £31,000. This company in­ anything could really be better than tends to provide an entertainment cen­ what it is at the moment. It is a very tre on the site. The approval of the bad place at the moment with an en­ Chancery Court has been obtained with trance there that is dirty and it is very regard to the Trust element involved poor but I would hope that the enter­ and the petitioners have informed the tainment centre could be something Board that the sum of £10,000 of the that we might be proud of and not sale price representing the amount of something we would regret. the original gift under the Henry Bloom Mr. M acDonald: Your Excellency, Noble Trust is to be applied to the like the last speaker I would like to new Summerland building. As these know exactly what this entertainment circumstances will preclude the re­ centre is consisting of. I presume the purchase of the property by the peti­ Chairman knows because quite hon­ tioners the Board have accepted the estly I would rather see the place left omission from the agreement of con­ as it is properly painted as it should ditions safeguarding the return of the be by the local authority under the property in the event of the failure of power of the Local Government Board it to be developed. All necessary con­ authority to force them if necessary to trols over the nature of the entertain­ keep it tidy. I would rather see it left ment to be provided will naturally be as it is until something decent is put exercised in the planning and certifi­ into it rather than see what the mem­ cation stages. I beg to move. ber of Council is so worried about, an­ Mr. S p ittall: I beg to second. other slot machine hall in Douglas be­ Mr. Nivison : Your Excellency, I am cause there are plenty at the moment. not opposing this resolution but I think We are already being told that provid­ we should draw attention to the fact of ing entertainment is not paying in the number of what are so called “en­ Douglas. Here we are, handing over tertainment centres” that are spring­ what is again publicly owned property ing up throughout the Island. These to provide yet another thing of which are invariably slot machine shops and we know absolutely nothing. it was advocated many years ago that Mr. B e ll: Your Excellency, I have the ideal thing, because our tourists do some doubts on this personally. I un­ require this, is to have these centred in derstand that the petition has provisos one place. I mentioned this some time that in the event of the sought after ago and when we are speaking of this permissions not being given that the people accused me — “Oh, you are try­ money is refundable. I understand that ing to foster Onchan Head.” I honestly is what the Chairman has said, that we wish that this slot machine centre was are not agreeing to the sale we are somewhere other than Onchan Head. It merely giving permission for the pros

Petition of Douglas Corporation for Sale of Noble Baths — Approved. T182 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 and cons to proceed. If the necessary that area of the baths and the cinema planning permissions which they seek and, if you like, the Tourist Board later are not given they want their offices which are quite unsuitable even money back. .It is only a matter of with the money that has been spent on hours that we heard on the Members’ them, that there could be a balancing Interests that the hon. and learned development. I am not recommending Deemster has declined his position that because it is only something that there because of possibly a conflict of was mentioned. interests. I could very well see the Mr. Radcliffe : It took five years to Local Government Board putting this think about it! forward and then in a capacity similar to the one they exercise at the moment, Mr. B e ll: I do not know but it seems sitting on the planning application and to me that it would certainly be wrong being in the embarrassing position of in approving this Petition today on the on one day recommending the sale of information that we have got knowing it and the next day they may very well full well that we would be putting our probably be in the position of having Planning Committee in a position of to refuse a planning consent and then embarrassing Tynwald and the local coming back. This really seems an odd authority and the purchaser when ul­ one and from the very start what the timately because of Government action members are saying, Your Excellency, the whole deal has fallen through. I I would have thought that with the would say that it would be much bet­ area there as a whole it must be ready ter for this to come to us as part of a for a re-development and I would have whole considered plan so that we can thought that because of the Chester properly know what we are voting on. Street/Wellington Square involvement Unfortunately, because of the lack of and because of the undoubted drain­ the proper information I have no other age which will occur from Chester course but to vote against it. Street and Wellington Street as a shop­ Mr. Cringle : Your Excellency, I am ping precinct when this modern one rather interested also in this Petition opens contrary in my opinion to all ¿particularly because in my capacity as good planning principles, what we a member of an auction company a really need in this area of Victoria gentleman rang me yesterday lunch­ Street now is a counter balance attrac­ time to see what was the situation as tion to keep the trade satisfied to re­ to putting timber to sell in an auction main where it is against the counter- this coming Wednesday, in other words, attraction of a new whatever is going tomorrow. I visited, it turned out act­ to be a super hypermarket in Chester ually, this very property and X discov- Street/Wellington Square. It seems sred that when visiting the property1 very wrong to me even on the soft yesterday that it is already interiorly premise that this may be an entertain­ being knocked apart. Now exactly what ment centre of some doubt, not dubious is the situation regarding this Petition nature but certainly of some doubt at at the present time when we have the moment, that a development of an people in here knocking it apart pre­ acceptable and attractive and desirable sumably then going to sell off bits and nature may very well be thwarted by pieces. our passing this Petition today. It would be passed in default of having Mr. B e ll: They have taken posses­ sufficient information as to what is to sion. happen in that area. It was said to me, Mr. M acDonald: Taking possession Your Excellency, only last evening that before the agreement is completed. certain persons who may have been in­ Mr. Cringle : Your Excellency, I just terested in that area were thinking of wondered exactly what the situation is the “Yates’s” or the Grand Hotel being with the Petition. enlarged by coming through the baths, that the cinema and cinemas are not Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, really paying propositions. That even would it be a good idea for learned

Petition of Douglas Corporation for Sale of Noble Baths — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T183

Counsel to give the information at this offer in 1971 and that Petition came stage as hon. members have their before this hon. Court, there was hot doubts. sufficient evidence to prove that this Mr. G. R. M. Moore appeared for the was the best sale the Corporation could Petitioners. get for the property. That is why we Mr. G. R. M. M oore: Your Excel­ advised it to be returned. However, to­ lency, this is a rather difficult site as day we are satisfied after all attempts members of the Court will be aware. have been made to get a better price It has a very narrow access on to for it that this is the best price they , Victoria Street and a large commodious can get. premises behind. These premises in the Mr. M acDonald: This is like the last few years since the baths have Railway track. ceased to operate commercially have Mr. R adcliffe: Even now the rate­ fallen into very severe disrepair. Van­ payers have a liability and I propose, dals have broken into the boarding it be accepted. house portion and caused very severe The Governor: Is it agreed hon. damage, the baths and the boarding members? house are full o|f dry rot. The pur­ It was agreed. chasers, at tiheir own expense asked for Mr. MacDonald : I am against. - permission to go into the premises to cure the dry rot which was passing The Governor: Well I propose hoii. from the premises into the Grand members this would be a convenient' Hotel. They, in fact, were given per­ moment to adjourn until half past tWo. mission for that work and so far as I The Court adjourned for lunch. ; ’ am aware no other permission has been given to them. The premises were put MANX RADIO — up for sale by auction and it is within DEBATE CONTINUED my knowledge that the representatives The Governor: Hon. members, we- of the Grand Hotel who might well will resume the debate on item 10- on have been interested attended that auc­ the Agenda. The hon. member for Peel. tion but did not bid. The present sale is the result of lengthy negotiations and Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I is, in fact, unconditional. The purpose think before I start if I could say that for which the premises are to be used I, like some of my former colleagues in the future — the purchaser would ■on the Council, sat as Chairman of this have to apply for planning permission Broadcasting Commission, and we have — and the hands of the Planning Com­ all gone through the same situation mittee are in no way tied by any resol­ where, really through lack of funds, the ution passed today. There is no ques­ development we would all have liked tion that if the matter is not approved to have taken place did not take place: or if it is approved now and then However, there was one other rather planning permission is not obtained -very big issue involved in this, and then the money has to be returned by this was the United Kingdom Govern­ the Corporation. ment’s attitude to Manx Radio. Per­ haps not so much the Government’s The Governor : Do you wish to reply attitude, but the British Broadcasting Mr. Chairman? Corporation’s attitude to Manx Radio. Mr. R adcliffe; The main point at I found during the period when I went issue as I see it today is that these to London with the hon. member of premises have been on the market for Council, Mr. Kneale, to discuss Manx auction for the past five years, they are Radio with the Broadcasting Organisa­ deteriorating rapidly and if all these tion and the Postmaster General’s staff people who are now showing interest that, as someone else said, they talked in them if they were interested in them with sweet tongues, having intended to why did they not get on and do some­ do nothing from the very beginning, thing about it over the past five years. and we all learnt this very early on. We felt at the time when it was put on I have been involved in the early part

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. T184 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18., 1975 oif my life in radio, stretching from with like the pop set, the little V.H.F. Africa right through to Borneo, build­ portable walk-about receiver, they ing and installing transmitters and would jump in on this, the walk-about equipment. I do know that at the set. They were finding they were m om ent we a re on 232 m etres, w hich losing the listener count to television. is a reasonable channel for what we are However, at the same time they also trying to do in the Isle of Man. You realised that in the United Kingdom will always get little valleys and and in the Isle of Man, the majority of pockets where you cannot pick up a people, the serious listeners, do not ■signal, ibe it on M.F. or V.H.F. or H.F. have V.H.F. In the Isle of Man today What rather disturbs me is that some­ the majority of people are still using one, I believe, with connections with medium wave receivers. Now, Mr. the British Broadcasting Corporation, Speaker did ask, Your Excellency, a is trying to talk us into converting over man went round the doors asking from M.F. to V.H.F. I think this would people, yes he did, and where the ■be a very dangerous move for two person said, I know one of my col­ reasons. Firstly, let us look at this leagues mentioned it, I heard it in Peel, situation. ¡We, at the moment, are on a where the person said “Well, you know, medium waveband. Medium wavebands I am not certain what I have got,” they are desired by almost every state in did have a look at the set. They did not the world. Everyone wants to be on the just say “Oh, well, what do you think?” medium wave. They want to be on the They did have a look at the set. If it medium wave for two reasons. You do was a V.H.F. set they noted it, if it was get during daytime a fairly close M.F. they noted it, if it was both they ground pattern signal leaving the noted it. So we did get, as accurate as transmitting aerials. At the same time, you can get, an idea of the type of if you are one of the larger countries receiver the public in the Isle of Man or one of the countries keen on outside are using at the moment. In the pick-up for propaganda then you use United Kingdom V.H.F. listening has your medium wave as the sun begins' fallen off very considerably indeed to set and heavy cloudal area begins to because on this channel medium you drop in the upper atmosphere. You use have got a mass of pop and nothing this for broadcasting over longer else. It is virtually used as a series of distances, as the present Chairman of pop channels apart from the stereo, and the Commission' quite rightly says, it even on the stereo bands a lot of that is not signal strength that matters, is pop music. The middle-aged or the power, it is the frequency you are on older youngster tend to go onto the that determines how far afield you can M.F. band because here you do get the broadcast throughout the 24 hours. You more serious and the more informative can have a little transmitter of five broadcasting. There is one other thing kilowatts working to Japan quite that rather disturbs me, Your Excel­ easily from the Isle of Man providing lency, that, if we give up, if we were you pick the right time of the day and' to suggest in the United Kingdom, they you are on the right channel. There is would love us to give up our medium no problem in this at all. What I feel wave because, as I said earlier, these is happening is that behind the scenes channels are very very much in the British Broadcasting Corporation demand. I remember saying once before as you know, operate, Your Excellency, in Tynwald that the British Govern­ two services, a television service and a ment originally had a very big alloca­ radio service. The television service tion of medium wave frequencies in the badly eroded the power of the B.B.C. days of the Empire. Every time the radio. To overcome this the British I.B.U. Convention meets, the U.K. Broadcasting Corporation Radio Sec­ Government is ordered;—and it can be tion, and they do operate as two ordered—to give up certain channels. I separate sections, to get back into the suppose they could say “We are going swim with listener count decided that to stick to them and to hell with you as many of the youngsters run around all and the rest of the world”. This,

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T185 however, would result in complete and 188 early morning, late evening utter chaos in world broadcasting .and periods, you are getting ¡mush coming so, under pressure, as new countries in along the bottom of the band. It is arrive on the world scene demanding the worst possible place and that is their own medium wave frequencies, so why there are very few stations on the United Kingdom, which had a very that section of the band. No one wants big lot, is having to give up more and it at all. The further up you go into the more channels. I think that possibly, middle section of the medium wave­ under pressure, the U.K. Government band so you get more and more stations will have to, at the next Convention operating. However, they have still got meeting, give up more channels. How a laid-down separation distance and nice it would be if they could give up this is very carefully maintained and our channel instead of one of their kept by the I.B.U. So I again would own. I also think that having said that, agree with the Commission rather than that the United Kingdom Government the Committee that it is better to go would then be in a position, if we slightly rup the band than down the volunteered to give up our medium, band. I think going down the band wave frequency, the cost of re-equip­ would toe disastrous. I, also, feel pos­ ping to V.H.F. unless—and let us be sibly that the Committee, I do not quite straight in our minds about this know, probably I should not say it, but — technically you will only get from I have a suspicion that someone is V.H.F. what you pay for, and the cost taking someone for a ride. I do not say of providing a V.H.F. service is quite they are taking us for a ride, but 1 high. The cost of everyone in the Isle think whoever is advising them is of Man who has not got a V.H.F. set taking them for a ride. I am rather buying a V.H.F. set, again I should disturbed that they did not think fit, think over all the Island, for an you know, to ask any of the previous Island, would be quite high. However, Chairmen of this Commission or the if you give up this channel and decide members of the Commission what their V.H.F. you have done it of your own views were, having had the experience free will. So, expect no support from right back to the days when Mr. anybody else, but if we are told that Bolton, the hon. member of the Coun­ we have got to give up the M.F. band, cil, was originally Chairman, running you know if the I.B.U. say somebody all the way through the various people has got to give one up, and the U.K. out who are still in this Court, who have of their block of allocation frequencies sat on this and gone to ¡London and decide we have got to give it up, surely, argued backwards and forwards, I think, we would toe in a very good because outside they can almost talk position to then say “Well, all right, you into anything, but the hard facts if we have got to give this channel up are, Your Excellency, to me— you should, in some way or other, shoulder the cost of conversion”. I The Speaker: Even into buying it. think they should shoulder the cost of Mr. MacDonald: Into buying what, conversion in that case, because having sir? allocated us one out of what was their Commonwealth band of frequencies, it The Speaker: We bought it once. is very difficult for them to refuse to Mr. MacDonald: I know you did, give us another one-—and a decent one Tynwald voted to buy it, yes, because —to operate from. I agree also with as you said earlier and quite rightly, the Chairman of the Commission, I the Manx people expected a station and think the 500 m etre band is a much for that reason Tynwald bought it, better band to operate in than going because the Manx people expected a further down the scale. If you look station—‘I still think they do—but I do yourselves, at the moment, on the not think it needs a Select Committee medium waveband you have got Manx of Tynwald to tell us this. I .think Radio, we have got 232 and we have everybody here realises this. I do not got 188. By the time you get down to think a single member of this Court,

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. T186 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

Your Excellency, would say close it. could take along, she had one of these They all know, the elderly listen to it, still. It was in a bad state and that was our age group listen to it, people the only time I ever remember anyone younger than us listen to it. In the in the Peel area saying they could not summer time it is a boon, there is no pick up Manx radio. I know at St. douibt about it, it is a boon. So I think, John’s, I have never heard people in and I think Tynwald feels, that it isi that area say but there are people pos­ necessary' and we should keep it. I sibly in the odd little valley, you know, think we all realise without the tucked away somewhere and there al- Committee telling us it will cost money days will be no matter what you fit in to keep it. All we want to know today, unless you give them, if you are going and I think from the Commission who to have V.H.F., their own V.H.F. re­ after all are the body that Tynwald set peater sitting at the top of the valley up to do this, is how much do they and beamed down the valley. You will want to set the Station up properly, but get reaction back on V.H.F. because it what I would say—do not swallow the is line of sight transmission, it reflects conversion to V.H.F. — I think this very easily off hill features, you will would be very dangerous and I think get back reflection into a valley, you we would lose everything in the end. can do that but a decent M.F. station As Mr. Speaker now appears to be and if we are to fight for anything at prepared to accept you can forget ever all a slightly increased signal strength having any overspill. At the moment would I think give you, as probably the we are getting overspill and quite Commission appreciate, would give you considerable overspill. You might listen what we require, the maximum we every day on, say, Merseyside, you can would ever get at a reasonable cost. So pick .Manx Radio up any time, day or I hope today the Court will in fact ac­ night, until it closes down. I have got cept the amendment. I am sorry to say people living as far afield now as this you know, my colleague here has Coventry who regularly listen to Manx spent a lot of time on it, on this job, Radio. It is being picked up on the as I did before and as everybody else coast of Cumbria, it is being picked up has done before. in South-West Scotland and, occasion­ The Speaker: You have been brain­ ally I believe, you can get it in Belfast washed. and Cornwall. You will get this on the medium waveband, you will get a Mr. MacDonald : No sir, but I know certain amount of overspill but you a bit about what I am talking about will get nothing whatsoever on V.H.F. which some people do not. This is because V.H.F. transmitters The Speaker : A special meeting. and V.H.F. aerials can ¡be very .care­ fully cut to give you only what you Mr. MacDonald : Some people do not can have and you will get nothing sir. I know what I am talking about, I outside that. As I said earlier, there never tell you how to run cows, or are people who keep saying — I heard how to make money out of them. How­ the hon. Chairman say — improve the ever, I know this job and I am quite quality of reception in the West and convinced this is bad advice, it will go St. John’s. I have never had a single sour on us and we can end up trying complaint in the Peel area that people to run a station which would be an cannot pick up Manx Radio. I am utter waste of time and money to the wrong. I remember once an old lady Manx taxpayer. The set we have got is had a Philco pre-war battery set and not very old, it is not so long since this she was having trouble, but it was not very Court agreed we buy a 10 kilo­ Manx Badio’s fault, this was her watt transmitter. I was against it then receiver’s fault. because I did not think we needed to go up that high but we got it and we Mr. B e ll: F lat battery. paid for it. We have still got it and it Mr. MacDonald : It was an old wet will last a little time, you know, they battery, you know the old one you do not just disappear overnight. I have

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T187 seen transmitters in use fifteen years said that they do no agree with the way after they were first installed if they it is being run, or they have said words are properly maintained and there is no to this effect, and they do not like the reason why they should not be. I would reports that come out and will a fresh advise the Court 'today to accept the Committee get away and look at the amendment because there is no doubt thing completely afresh. This is what Your Excellency, one of the failings of we tried to do. We have heard all Tynwald today, I often see this, is that morning what the recommendations of we have a tendency to set up a Select this new Committee are. We already Committee to investigate something know and they have been re-emphas­ when there is a Board or a Commis­ ised today what the views of the Com­ sion perfectly capable. It would be of mission are. So it is a simple issue great assistance if Tynwald would only really. Do you want to go back to tell them what they want in principle handing over again to the Commission and let them get on with producing the who have already been doing the job, facts and the figures to 'bring back to with which you are not satisfied, other­ Tynwald to carry out the wishes of wise we would not be talking about Tynwald. this so long? The Commission was there. They have said and they have Mr. Moore : Your Excellency, I am a stressed the point straight away, let us member of this Select Committee. The turn the wick up. They have stressed first thing I want to do is ask a ques­ the point about what medium wave fre­ tion. It was this Tynwald Court that quency they would like. However, they selected this Committee to do this, it have already told this Court and every­ was the bulk of the people who are one in this Court knows that every time talking today who asked that a Select we go to the United Kingdom on this Committee be set up to look into the problem we have been told where to possibilities of how Manx Radio should go. We will not get the wick turned up, oe run. as we now call it. We will not be able Mr. Q uayle: No. to select our own channel on medium Mr. Moore : It was not this Tynwald waves, we have already been told that Court? | the I.B.U., at the conference last month, will be cutting down the number of Mr. Q uayle: It was the recommen­ frequencies which will be available for dation of the “White” committee. the United Kingdom Government. We Mr. Moore : We Will allow you to in­ have taken the view of going away and terrupt as much as you like on the speaking again to experts and asking terms hut we were elected as a Select their advice. They advised immediately Committee to look into this particular th a t 212 m etres is a possibility in the problem. The point that I am trying to short term. I think the Chairman will get hold of is, nobody ever came to me tell you more about this, I am not a before they asked for my name to go technical person. 212 m etres in the forward and asked me did I have any short term would give us better recep­ technical knowledge about it so I am tion than we are getting at present. In only assuming that the duty they the long term we suggested other fre­ thought that I could do was to take an quencies. This was not from what we entirely fresh look. We are surrounded felt but from what the experts said by experts, everybody has told us how and we have engaged experts to advise Manx Radio should be run in this hon. us on it. This is all we can do. How­ Court over the past few years. The ever, we came down very firmly on one people who selected us knew of course thing, what we do want and what we that we have very able people on the impress all the way through this re­ Broadcasting Commission, I have no port, is that we want all Island cover­ qualms at all about saying that the age- as far as technically possible. We two people are the most capable people want coverage for the Island and we to run Manx Radio. I have never said made this point. The only reason that anything else. However Tynwald Court we did not meet, I think, the Commis­

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. T188 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 sion was that we assumed in this Re­ mendations would be considered by the port that you wanted a fresh outlook. competent authority, and the competent If we met the Commission they could authority, in my book, and a very only tell you what they have told you competent authority, has been the this morning, and what they have told Broadcasting Commission. I have been you on numerous occasions, that they involved in this, as hon. members will feel certain things should happen, that realise, I brought before this Court a the wick should be turned up, that we resolution for the purchase of Manx should in sist on 500 or som ething like Radio which I think was a good thing. this which we have found is almost im­ I knew at the time, as indeed all mem­ possible to achieve. Therefore we said, bers were persuaded at the time, that well, let us start from scratch and bring if we did not bring that resolution for­ something fresh to the Court. This is ward that Manx Radio was going to what we are doing; we are bringing depart from the control of this country. forward now suggestions that V.H.F. I think that it was in the light of that eventually will be the answer. We could that it was decided to go ahead and have brought some of these arguments purchase it. I subsequently brought for­ stated this morning in 1911 and said, ward a resolution to this House to pur­ well, if we are talking about motor cars, chase the new building on Douglas you know, they are not very popular, Head, because we saw there that we and if you go round most people would had a building which was ideally suited prefer the horse and cart! We are say­ to the problem that we had in mind, ing now that eventually the only way and we were able to persuade Tynwald that we will get proper reception is by at that time that this was a good thing. V.H.F. We are making certain recom­ I subsequently brought forward a mendations for the future, and we are resolution for the purchase of our new saying in order to carry out these re­ transmitter, which Tynwald agreed was commendations we need £130,000. I am a very good thing. It was brought for­ not going to get involved with this ward at the behest of the competent argument about whether it should be authority which was the Broadcasting a financial resolution or anything, that Commission. I think it is folly in this is nothing to do with it; this is past Court at the moment for people to say history now. It is in front of us today that on the one hand they are satis­ — do you want the Committee that you fied with the way the Broadcasting set up to continue to advise and to Commission are running their show, carry out their recommendation up to and on the other hand they are not. £130,000, or do you just want to turn Either they are or they are not. I, for the clock back now and say, well, for­ one, am very satisfied because I know get all about it boys, you are only extremely well what I had to go wasting time, we did not want a Com­ through during my term of Chairman­ mittee, we only wanted a delaying tac­ ship of the Broadcasting Commission. tic in order that we could sit back and I wanted, in the initial stages, to go to have another go. where I believe the root of our trouble Mr. C rellin: Your Excellency, I feel has lain — and that is with the B.B.C. that the last two speakers have high­ — because I believe that it has been lighted the problem which is before us the B.B.C. which has dictated the policy this afternoon. I think the hon. mem­ of the Home Office towards the Isle of ber for North Douglas in his statement Man, and the Ministry of Posts and has said a great deal of what I would Telecommunications with regard to like to touch upon. First of all, I would Manx Radio. I happened to be in the like to make it clear that this Com­ position at that time to have a fairly mittee which was set up by Tynwald, good ear at the B.B.C., and I wantei in my opinion, was never asked to go to go but I could not ¿;o because there into the question of spending money; was a high-powered constitutional Com­ it was to bring forward recommenda­ mittee at that time which was looking tions. I think that the House at that into this problem. I would agr^e that time had in mind that these recom­ the question of the status of Manx

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T189

Radio is irretrievably bound up wi'Ji that this was a most responsible speech. our constitutional position, there is no I believe that he said everything that doubt at all about that. Nobody has needs to be said about this in a nut­ mentioned Kilbrandon this afternoon, shell. There is no doubt that the atti­ nobody has mentioned 'the fact that tude of the United Kingdom and the when we were talking about our posi­ B.B.C. has 'been the same thing over tion with Manx Radio at that time, we many years. I agree with him that at were talking about the days before Kil­ the m om ent the 232 m etre frequency brandon had been formed, which was application is reasonable provided that thanks to the machinations of the we remain upon it, and provided that Stonham Committee and various we can at some later date continue our people here in this Court. Nevertheless, fight. I see no reason to abandon the we have seen already that on the hor­ struggle purely and simply because izon there is a new style rising, there nought availeth at the present moment. is something new developing in the The whole constitutional position is question of the devolution of the con­ changing, and I 'believe that if you kill stitutional problems. We will see that your 232 frequency, which you will do over the next two or three years there if you vote for (this resolution today, will be great differences in the question Which you will do purely and simply of our power — I am speaking about out of physical economics, you will be our physical power, not our power on destroying the future of radio in the Manx Radio — but I am speaking Isle of Man. We know that in the Isle about our power to have effect upon of Man we have had to face this prob­ other Countries in the United King­ lem over many years, and to a certain dom. I think at this time, to make a extent I think that this resolution is decision of this nature which would irrelevant to the position; that is my foolishly — in my opinion, foolishly — own personal opinion. I do not want to kill for ever our hope of ever getting influence the Court unnecessarily on outside of the Isle of Man legally. Once this line, but I believe that the question you instal V.H.F. in the Isle cdf Man which we have got to face in the future and you institute it as our only means is not whether Manx Radio will re­ of communication from without, you main because Manx Radio must re­ cannot have your money both ways. main. What will be decided is whether What it is going to mean is the fact or not we stay a commercial station, or that we will be forever confined to the whether we become a non-commercial Isle of Man, when we may find that in station, or whether we do it in the way two or three years’ time with devolu­ that Southern Ireland does it, and that tion that it will be a question of nego­ is your commercial side 'being boosted tiating with the Government of Scot­ and paid for by your commercial side land and the Government of Wales and to some extent, and that the Govern­ the Government of the United King­ ment of the Isle of Man bear the de­ dom. I believe that we must retain our ficit. These are problems which are for position on the medium wave fre­ Tynwald to answer. But who is going quency. I think this is essential. All I to bring them forward? Surely, the ner- would ask you to bear in mind is the son who is going to bring them forward fact that the Broadcasting Commission is going to be the Chairman of the has been fully aware of these prob­ Broadcasting Commission which is lems for many years, and as the hon. charged with the statutory responsibil­ Chairman of the Broadcasting Com­ ity for this. I think that while this mission, the Vice-Chairman said this Committee has done a good job, they morning, the Commission has for years have highlighted certain things, they been frustrated by the political argu­ have investigated certain things, they ments with which this question of the have brought forward a resolution status of Manx Radio has been en­ which in part is not a bad resolution. meshed. I would like just to say a few If you look at the resolution as it is and words about what was said by the hon. you look at the section to which the and gallant member for Peel. I thought Broadcasting Commission has agreed,

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. T190 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

it is, to my mind, the responsible puit that reception when it is directly over of that resolution, it is one which can the sea is very, very much stronger satisfy the wishes of Tynwald, can than it is when it is over the land. So, satisfy the wishes of the Broadcasting therefore, it is true that Manx Radio Commission, can satisfy the wishes of can be received on a receivable basis Manx Radio because it can mean that in Cornwall purely and simply because the Broadcasting Commission can bring the signal is going over the sea, which forward reasonable proposals for fin­ accepts the signal very much better. As ancial approval and for the approval of far as I am concerned I would have this Court which will improve the voted against this entire resolution if things which are highlighted in the it had not been for the fact that, to my “White Report”. I was amazed, really, mind, it left a vacuum. I believe that to find that this Report which was pro­ this Committee have highlighted a duced toy the hon. C hairm an of the number of problems. I believe that if Broadcasting Commission with regard their Report, having been sent to the to V.H.F. listenership in the Isle of Broadcasting Commission and discussed Man, was as great as it was. I was con­ with the Broadcasting Commission who vinced that there were a greater num­ are the competent authority on this ber of medium wave frequency listen­ matter, would have done endless good. ers listening to Manx Radio than there In this particular respect all I would were V.H F. So we will just concede ask is, toearing in mind what the hon. this point. There was a much greater member for West Douglas, Mr. Kneale, number. I think that the Report which said in support of his Chairman on this was brought forward by the Chairman matter, that we do know that there will of the Broadcasting Commission, so far be capital expense, but there will not from it being one which accentuated be capital expense to the tune of the position with regard to Manx £132,000 plus the staffing involved, the Radio, was one which in fact was a running costs involved, an untold huge little bit more conservative than the sum which we would be asked to ap­ one which I would have 'brought for­ prove today. I believe that the thing ward at this particular stage. I rein­ to do at the present moment is to vote force the arguments which have been for the amendment. put forward by the hon. and gallant Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I member for Peel in that respect. There will be very brief in my comments be­ is one point I would like to make with cause I honestly think there has been regard to his remarks regarding stereo, enough said on this topic over many and I hope the hon. member will not years. I can recollect back in February mind my saying so, and that is the fact this year when I moved the resolution that stereo in the Isle of Man is ir- at that time on the Committee of In­ receivable at the present moment be­ quiry’s Report. I do think, to be fair to cause of the fact that the signal the Broadcasting Commission, there are strength coming from the United King­ two things we have got to bear in mind, dom is not sufficiently great to give us (a) It would appear to me today that the proper stereo reception which those we unanimously agree that we want to of us who are interested in stereo may retain Manx Radio. It would appear, receive. I hope that the B jB.C. will be therefore, if we are going to retain attending to this in the near future. Manx Radio we must spend money. In This, again, is the province of the the past, I remember sitting as a mem­ Broadcasting Commission. There is ber of the Standing Committee at one little more I wish to say on this. There time, talking to Lord Colville about this is only one point I would like to make situation — this is going back some with regard to one or two eyebrows years — and we were told at that time, raised with regard to the reception in that if you want to cover the Isle of Cornwall, which my hon. colleague, the Man there is one way in which you member of Council, Mr. Kneale refer­ can do it, but you can only do it by red to. It is a fact, of course, and I am spending money. From then on every­ sure that many hon. members will know body has set their face against spend­

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T191 ing this money and have said on numer­ Mr. R adcliffe: “And rep ort back ous occasions, if we want .to get Manx within three months”. Then that sub­ Radio to operate in the Isle of Man we mission would have to be, as it is a should bring in some private concern financial resolution, I would imagine, to do it. I was the person that moved would have to be approved by the Fin­ the resolution in February; my hon. ance Board, will normally come to colleague who was the Chairman of this Executive Council for consideration on Committee at that time supported that the Agenda, and will arrive back in this resolution at the time. He wanted it in­ hon. Court at that time with, I hope vestigated; he was then made Chair­ some action to be taken to get Manx man of this Committee, and the Com­ Radio once and for all established for mittee have done a very thorough in­ the benefit of everybody. I so move. vestigation. In reference to the points Mr. B e ll: Your Excellency, I rise to that have been made, as I see it, and second the amendment and to say that as .I1 have said, I think there has enough I am glad that someone 'has touched been said, what we want to do now is on the implication which was in the get some action. I think the way to get original resolution as tantamount to a the action is to support the amendment. vote of no confidence in the existing I do think the amendment, possibly, Broadcasting Commission. I say it is needs a slight further amendment be­ tantamount to it and may be taken as cause it would appear to me that when an inference, but one must not escape my hon. friend in the Council referred the facts of life that the Select Com­ to this amendment, he spoke about it mittee are, in fact, members of Tyn­ being submitted to Executive Council wald, and if we remember that dog and i'f approved subsequently to em­ does not eat dog, they may very well brace it in a money vote for the ap­ have couched their Report and their proval of Tynwald. I know that there final recommendation in such a way as are certain members in this hon. Court not to be so direct as to move the vote who have got no great love for Execu­ of no confidence. The “White Report” tive Council. I wondered why this and the “Clucas Report”, of course, Report cannot be submitted directly have arisen because of the necessity to back to Tynwald, not to Executive have a look at the administration and Council at all, let us have the Report the policy of Manx Radio, both of and the recommendation. We know which have emanated from the Broad­ now that the Government in the Isle casting Commission. The Broadcasting of Man (a) want Manx Radio; (b) to Commission are not without blame. Un­ keep it viable they want to spend questionably in my view this afternoon money. I think we cannot accept the is that the amended resolution will resolution as put before us, because if carry, and the Broadcasting Commis­ we did, in my interpretation of it, it sion shortly will come to Tynwald means a vote of no confidence in the Court w ith such recom m endations o.ut Broadcasting Commission. How can of the “Clucas Report” as they feel are you have a Broadcasting Commission acceptable to the Court, and with the sitting supposed to 'be doing a job with assured support of Tynwald and the another Committee watching over them Finance Board for the money to put all the time to see that they are doing this Report and recommendations into it? They have been told now, I hope, policy. This will only come about be­ today in no uncertain terms what cause we have had such a debate today, exactly we want them to do, and I and because the “Clucas Report” did, certainly think they should be allowed in fact, make the request not that the to get on with it. I would like to move Broadcasting Commission should sup­ that after the words in the amendment ervise the implementation of their “for submission to” insert “Tynwald Report, but that his own Committee and to report back within three should do it. I hope that the Broad­ months” and finish it at that. casting Commission will take it that A Member : Within three months? they have had a vote of no confidence

M anx Rad"v) —■ D ebate Continued. T192 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

on the Agenda Paper today, but they mittee” for this. We must blame Tyn­ have been saved from that vote being wald ourselves for this. From time to taken by the last amendment which time we are very apt to propose and has been tabled. The ridicule that Manx support Committees to investigate the Radio has had to endure and which workings of other departments, having the staff of Manx Radio have had to appointed those other departments to endure over the years of Government carry out work which they are re­ ownership and Government policy­ quired to do, and I do say that our making and administration is directly own department, which is the Broad­ attributable to the Broadcasting Com­ casting Commission, have had that job. mission and- to the directors of Manx The only reason they have not done it Radio on behalf of Government, not be­ better, or they have not created a ing as forthright in their pursuit of the wider field is because they have not establishment of a respectable radio had the money. There was a reluctance station with studio facilities that the — let us face it — in the earlier stages staff are entitled to, that we are en­ that they should get the money. It was titled to, and which they have demon­ w hen the- radio station w as bought on strated themselves of being capable of the proposal of the hon. member of the using by their own expertise in the Council, Major Crellin, that it was now pursuit of other statutory duties which paying its way. It was now paying its they have held in the past. They know way, it was said, and this was the exactly what r l mean. So this is, in my sweet that was given to us in order book, a vote of no confidence not being that we should swallow it. It is now put to the Court. I hope that Manx beginning to pay its way, and in other Radio with the acceptance of this words, if you take it on now you will amendment will get a vote of con­ not need any money with it. Many of fidence, and the staff get a vote of con­ us did not subscribe to this and knew fidence from Tynwald Court, and I am that the only way in which it could sure this will undoubtedly be quite succeed was to invest more money in it. clear to them all. It is a useful service, that has been Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I do said over and over again. We have not wish to speak on the technicalities buried once and for all' this idea that of whether we should extend the we were going to turn ourselves into a V.H.F., or whether we should continue legitimate Caroline, bearing in mind with medium frequencies, or whatever that Caroline was illegitimate. There it is. A lot has been said about this, it was in many people’s minds — in fact, is very difficult for us lay people in the I remember the ex-member for Castle­ Court to really understand all about it. town saying that it was his wish at one It is sufficient for us to be guided by time that we should have a station people who know something about it. that would be heard by the bathing I do say this, that we have learned a people on the Riviera, and we referred great deal from both sides, and it has to it as pie-in-the-sky at that time, you been, in my view, an excellent debate see. Some were prepared to swallow and has shown, as other speakers have this kind of stuff at that time. It was said, the willingness of the Court gen­ found to be impossible and now most erally to improve Manx Radio and to people are recognising that even if you make Manx Radio available to a wider could, even if you could broadcast to the audience. This is in the back of all our four comers of the earth, they would minds, it is the method as to how this perhaps not want to listen to you, they should be done, and who is going to may not want to listen to you i>:- those hold the reins, this is the important corners. Somebody was saying if you thing that is before us. I do say that tuned in you could perhaps hear Manx this appears to be an internal constitu­ Radio in Cornwall, you see. I remem­ tional matter, an internal constitutional ber when I was a young fellow we matter, and we must not blame, in my used to have short-wave radios and view, the Broadcasting Commission or people used to have the joke that if we must not blame the “Clucas Cbm- you sat up late enough at night you

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T193

could get “Chile”, you could get free to carry out the recommendations. “Chile”. (Laughter). Mr. Nivison: That is right, that is A Member: They did not have wire­ right, thank you. I am obliged. They less when you were young, did they? have to carry out the recommendations Mr. Nivison: Yes, they did have that Tynwald subsequently approved. wireless in my youth. Oh yes, the In this it does not say that. It says that Light Emitters, they were. The other this Comlmittee should he empowered emitter was not invented in those days. to carry out the recommendations Some of you remember the Light which they themselves—in other Words, Emitter which lit the room up when get rid of the existing authority that you had a great six-volt battery on the deals with this particular problem. This table and -all the valves stood up on is the difficulty. I would have liked, the top. Nevertheless, I do say that this personally, that if this Report, which is a constitutional matter within here, has a lot of very good sense in it, and and the experts on both sides have has got a lot of very fine views, bad differing views. I would hope that in been presented to the Broadcasting future we would foe extremely careful Commission for their observation and that we do not appoint Committees' who subsequent report to Tynwald. This are going to investigate the working probably is the only way to do it. Inci­ of Boards of Tynwald. (Hear, hear). dentally, I would like to say, regarding The Commission is virtually ,a Board surveys^- two days ago, not ancient of Tynwald and the only reason why history, a very chanminig lady called at they did not go further was because my house, and I happened to be in, and of the shortage of money, the difficulty she said “I am from Manx Radio. Do they had in getting the money when you listen to Manx Radio?” I said yes, we bought it and when we replaced the every day. The only other question she transmitter, and so forth. So this kind asked was “Do you listen to the of Report is the sort of Report that in religious broadcasts?” When I gave her the ’first place—might I say, how many my reply to that question (Laughter) of us associated with Boards of Tyn­ she left, not because of the reply, but wald would like a Committee set up on that appeared to be all she wanted to the workings of our particular Boards, know, just those two item's, whether we and to have a report put in which listened in the house and whether we states in (d), “authorises the Select listened to the religious broadcasts. Committee to 'continue in office with Nothing to do with V.H.F. I do say that the extended terms of reference to I have both, V.H.F. in the house and it carry out the policy hereinbefore is the medium band that you listen to declared”? on the car radio. Most car radios, I Mr. Bell: We have one and you are think, are medium band. the Chairman! Mr. MacLeod: N ot mine. Mr. Nivison: To do the work. We are Mr. Nivison: Is it not? (Laughter. not going to do any of the work that Oh, I forgot, the hon. member has a was hereinbefore carried out by some crystal set! Or they only have paraffin other Board of Tynwald. at the Beary, I think! (Laughter). I Mr. Bell: Supervising the Airport, the would hope, having said all this, that Harbour and the Highway Boards. it_does appear, unfortunately, that the Mr. Nivison: No, not supervising. No, only way out of this particular situa­ this is a mistaken idea from the hon. tion that we have got ourselves into— member for South Douglas. and it is Tynwald that did it — is to Mr. Clucas: The M.E.R.? support the amendment that has been proposed; in other words, that we Mr. Nivison: The M.E.R. — this was should accept the amendment as brought along for ¡a very different amended. Then it should be subse­ reason—economics, pure economics. quently reported, not to the Executive Mr. Simcocks: The M.E.R. are left Council but reported to Tynwald by the

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. T194 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

Commission, by the Commission, as to class, and I would like to see this effort what we should do for the future, which portrayed in other angles of the every member — it has come out loud Island’s life, and so would other and clear—wishes to continue. I think people. Since commercial use seems to most members agree that it will cost demand the retention of the medium money to (continue efficiently. waveband, I have become convinced Mr. His'op: Your Excellency, may I that I must support the amendment. at this late stage today refer hon. The Governor: Do you wish to reply? members to the Interim Report of the Mr. Clucas: Thank you, Your Excel­ Select Committee on Manx Radio. It is lency. I must admit at the outset, I do Appendix B, page 2, Isle of Man feel rather as if I had had my head in Broadcasting Commission, where we a vice, since my Committee seems to ■have the statement: “It has not been have been accused of reporting on the possible to meet the Broadcasting activities of the Broadcasting Commis­ Commission since we were appointed, sion, in a loose sense. Yet, of course, but we are obliged to them for the remit given to my Committee by supplying . . .”, etc., etc...... “We look Tynwald specifically asked us to report forward to the opportunity of consul­ on these matters. Indeed, the hon. tations with them if our continuance Chairman of the Broadcasting Com­ as a Committee is authorised . . .” etc. mission, in his interruption of my hon. Under Standing Order No. .17 I beg to colleague, Mr. Moore, indicated that move that the motion be adjourned our remit was to look -at the Commit­ until the January sitting of Tynwald tee’s Report. Our remit, I would to permit of consultations being heldi respectfully remind you, was to con­ between the Select Committee and the sider the Report and make recommen­ Broadcasting Commission, with a view dations on the future of Manx Radio. to an agreed policy on the future of This, with the greatest respect, I Manx Radio being submitted to this suibmit we are in the process of doing Court. in this, the further Report, that is Members: No, no. before us now. This also, I think, Miss C ow in: Your Excellency, as the relates to the opening remarks of the fifth member of the Select Committee, hon. member of Council, Mr. Crellin. and I must say a somewhat disenchan­ How can you make recommendations ted one towards the end of the as to the future of Manx Radio Committee because of certain circum­ without giving some consideration to stances which I need' not go into the financial considerations? This possibly, I am certain that the only seems to me to be elementary. I also hope of any financial return for feel that the debate — unlike some expenditure in the nature of what is members—I feel the debate has been envisaged is a future hope of commer­ very woolly indeed, and largely, I feel, cial use, however dim that hope may it has been due to a misunderstanding be. Meanwhile, since it is the very of what precisely my Committee definite idea that Manx Radio shall proposed. I will not go through the survive, with the retention of medium number of members who have frequency, a use of local agents will expressed opinions of this kind, but develop the talents that are in the people talk about — Mr. Orellin', for Island and would gain fresh interest in example, referred to us “relying solely Manx Radio because I, too, have been on V.H.F., and if we do this it will making my enquiries, not by the destroy the future of Manx Radio”, method of from door-to-door, but over and then he Went off into the devolu­ a considerable length of time. My tion argument. I accept entirely this information is that people are not very argument if we were submitting for sold on the wallpaper which Manx one moment that Manx Radio should Radio constantly chums out. It has1 the rely solely on V.H.F. We are recom­ faculty of arousing interest when their mending nothing of the kind. We are sports commentaries are really first- recommending — and it is quite dear

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T195

there — in Part C of our Report — that I am saying is that this is a matter the improvement -and extension be which at the present time is being effected ¡primarily by the development investigated most carefully indeed, but, of V.H.F. transmissions, but we are not as I say, the matter is inhibited to a in any shape or form going to ignore considerable extent by the fact that 120 the medium wave. I thought I did make countries, mark you, are at present that quite clear in my opening sitting down round the table trying to remarks when I dwelt at some length thrash out a fresh approach to the about the question of the International problem of the confused and complica­ Frequency Planning Conference in ted pattern which arises when too Geneva, which was inhibiting our many broadcasters try to share too ability to get a change of the spot on narrow a stretch on the waveband. I the dial on medium wave. What I am must come back to the point that we saying is, in that particular connection, are not in any way giving up medium that in reference to the criticism, wave. I firmly believe in the future of albeit for all I know, justified, of 212 medium wave, as does my Committee, metres, all I am saying is that that has but that in itself is irrelevant. It is the been one of the recommendations, experts who tell us that the future indeed, the primary recommendation expansions would be mulch better which is at this moment in time being suited to the terrain and the various pursued toy the Directorate of Radio other matters that I mentioned in my Technology based in London. I think opening address, if we concentrate on the Chairman or the hon. Vice-Chair­ very high frequency. Somebody men­ man of the Broadcasting Commission tioned stereophonic broadcasting. Of m entioned the question of 212 m etres course, the short answer is that you not appearing on the dial of many are not going to get stereophonic broad­ radio receivers. Well now, as a younger casting with any degree of .success in man, I well remember listening to the Isle of Man unless you do employ Radio Luxembourg, and so far as I am V.H.F. That, in my opinion, is a refine­ aware, it is still flourishing . . . ment. I am very pleased to know that Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I never one hon. member of the Council is mentioned that. My hon. friend here sufficiently interested in the subject to mentioned that it was near the end of be able to appreciate stereophonic the band, which is a different thing. broadcasting. I do feel that is some­ thing distinctly for the future, and we, Mr. Clucas: I did indicate that it was for our part, have dismissed that as the Chairman or the Vice-Chairman of being far too much a specialised the Broadcasting Commission. Thank feature. We are concerned at the you for explaining that it was the present time with trying to cater for Chairman. One or two others, I think, all those people in the Isle of Man, have touched on this point. The fact is living in the Isle of Man, paying their that I think it would be fair to say whack towards sutosidising Manx that Radio Luxembourg, which is Radio to ensure that they will be able beamed with a very high output indeed, to receive the programmes put out by but from Europe, can be heard very our own local radio station. It was clearly indeed in most of the British interesting in the papers this weekend Isles. If that can be received on the to read that if we, in fact, threw in the dial of a medium wave radio receiver towel entirely on Manx Radio, that the I am quite certain that local broadcasts B.B.C. would, of course, be eager to beamed to the Isle of Man listener jump in and assist us. I find that an would be received on a spot a little extraordinarily naive attitude; indeed, further up the dial nearer the centre; the whole list of local radio stations for in other words, four metres above the B.B.C. and their potential audien­ Radio Luxembourg, I am not making ce's, which I have in front of one, shows out a case for 212 metres; that I leave that Radio Brighton in fact caters for entirely to those who are technically the smallest audience, and' that is competent to judge such matters. ALL som ething like 410,000 people — soime-

Manx Radliio — Debate Continued. T196 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975

thing like seven times our own domes­ three months have, in fact, elapsed tic audience—and this, I think, is a now since this particular matter first non-starter. We go it alone or we do went on the Tynwald Agenda and I am without. Then, of course, we had the surprised to find that I, in a small way, rather disappointing, I felt, comments am being blamed for perhaps retarding of the hon. Chairman of Finance Board the progress of Manx Radio because, if regarding the fact that there had not we look at the correspondence regarding been much time for concurrence of the the A ldrich Consortium, w e findi th at Finance Board to be given to the although I first tabled a resolution on resolution. Actually, of course, I think the subject of Manx Radio ¡way back I can explain that the apparent short in F eb ru ary 1973, it w as on 29th A pril time at his Board’s disposal can best 1972 th at Mr. A ldrich first m ade his be explained by the fact that, to the approach to Government. I feel very best of my knowledge, my Committee much that there was a certain lack of was not seeking Finance Board con­ response on the part of the Broadcast­ currence. As I understood it, it was ing Commission at that stage which I simply being tabled for the resolution do not think in any way can be of Tynwald, and you may have attributed to me or subsequent actions received it as a member of Executive of Tynwald. I think this was solely the Council but I am unaware of you desire of the Broadcasting Commission receiving it on the 'basis of a request for its own reasons to handle the for Finance Board concurrence. I think matter in its own way; that is their that does explain the rather short own affair. I do not think it is right notice which you apparently were or reasonable to blame Tynwald or my somewhat concerned about. What I am own particular action in tabling, quite concerned about much more, and this, independent of such matters, in tabling I think, extends far ibeyond the realms a move th a t Tynw ald should, in facrt, of this particular resolution, is the investigate. disturbing feature, Your Excellency, Mr. Quayle: Twenty-two months. that last Thursday morning the hon. Chairman of the Broadcasting Com­ Mr. Clucas: It is 33 months I think mission was invited or requested to you—< attend a meeting of your Executive Mr. Quayle: I said 22. Council to discuss this very resolution we are discussing today. I would say Mr. Clucas: I said 33 m onths. I at the outset that I had no objection, happen to be speaking now: I am nor could I, to the Chairman of any saying it is 33 months since February Board or Commission of Tynwald 1973 -— it is two years nine months, I making a request to attend a meeting would say — that is when we first otf Executive Countil or the reverse or debated the matter, and on Mr. to be invited, but what I do take Speaker’s amendment it was, in fact, exception to is the role of Your deferred to the following Octotoer ExcePency’s Executive Council in not, because, as the hon. member of Council, in fact, ensuring that my Committee, Mr. Crellin, has remarked, of Killbran- appointed toy Tynwald in this particu­ don. Kilbrandon very much is a part lar case, was not involved. It gives the of this particular matter, but, in fact, impression, Your Excellency, to put it the Kilbrandon Report was not avail­ toluntly, that we are on opposite sides able in October and I, on my own of the fence. I personally, for my part, ¡suggestion, had it deferred to Deceoro- and I have no reason to doutot that this ber. The other matter that is often does not cover the rest of my Commit­ being quoted is, in fact, the remarkable tee, I personally believe we are all ability of Government to run Manx acting for the same thing, for the good Radio profitably whereas private enter­ government of this Island, and I am prise, ho, ho, could not do so, and! all disappointed to find such divided sorts of figures have been quoted, and practices creeping in more and more I spent quite a large share of the early into our internal government. Thirty- hours of this morning like the hon. fr- ______Manx Radio — Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T197

Vice-Chairman oi the Broadcasting magazine has recently given the deta.ls Commission, going through very care­ of their latest survey, carried out as fully all the debates since February recently as this autumn, and results 1973. I must say that in last February's staggered even their own experts. The debate on my hon. colleague, Mr. way in which V.H.F. listening is Radcliffe’s motion from Executive accelerating is very impressive in­ Council, I was very disappointed indeed deed. I cannot say that this applies at the rather negative attitude of Mr. in the Isle of Man, but I think it Kneale, the hon. Vice-Chairman, there is reasonably proper to assume that was not one single solitary positive there is a correlation between the two. recommendation for the future running I be.ieve, above all, that this Select of Manx Radio contained in his contri­ Committee has established good rela­ bution on that occasion. I find that tions in London and if we are, in fact, disappointing because, of course, as to be no more, I am satisfied that we has been highlighted, I think, by the have achieved something in that “White Report”, the interest on the respect. I think that the difficulties and capital which has been injected by problems and mistakes probably •—' we Government into Manx Radio has all make mistakes — of tbs past did been so conveniently ignored and the leave a nasty taste in the mouth in figure of £8,000 per annum is mentioned, ¡London and I think it has been, to and it will be found once that charge some extent, against that background is applied to many of the accounts in that fresh moves have had to be Manx Radio, it wi.l be found that initiated. Inevitably they are siow, many of the so-called profitable years miuch slower than I and my Committee under Government control were would have wished, but I believe that nothing of the kind. I am not blaming progress has been made. We have Government, but I think the records ■entitled our Report “A F u rth er should show that that is the position. Report” because we believe there is I do not think we should delude our­ much still further to be done, but I do selves on that particular matter. Then want to state quite categorically that this V.H.F. survey, I rather thought, this is in no way, in my assumption, neatly trulmped by the experience of the a Vote of no confidence' in the Broad­ hon. member of Council, Mr. Nivison, casting Commission. I think that is an to say that it throws the validity of the irresponsible way of looking at it. We survey intto question I think is an only, carried out the duties and the understatement but nevertheless, tasVs imposed upon us by Tynwald and whether it be valid or not it is, I feel, to that extent I would point out that irre’evant. V.H.F. sales in the Island I I voted against the establishment of the am certain are inhibited to some Ccmmittee of which I am now Chair­ extent by the fact that various parts man. I did not want to have that role; of the Island cannot receive our own it was imposed upon me and, I think, local radio station on V.H.F. I am in that sense, as I said at the begin­ equally sure that if, in fact, V.H.F. ning, I feel very much as if I. have had coverage were extended primarily and my head in a vice. I say again that if in the first place to tho~e areas which we are to progress Manx Radio we at present cannot receive Manx Radio must try and look at the long-term at all, I am quite certain that the trade future and not constantly be nit-picking in V.H.F. radio receivers would and simply going from year to year. improve, so I do not think that that The staff of Manx Radio, as has been really is an argument. The figures of mentioned before, must be heartily the V.H.F. reception, the number of s\ck of the delay and the prevarication receivers capable, impressed, me too. and the switching of this issue from The hon. member for Peel stated, one Committee to another. Just look at totally unsubstantiated by the way, he the amendment whether as amended or mentioned that V.H.F. listening was in its original form—it merely sets the declining. That, I honestly believe, is clock back quite considerably. Shakes absolute rubbish. The B.B.C. house in the grass playing snakes and

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. T198 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 ladders. It does in fact, give you a state Mrs. Hanson, Messrs. MacDonald of affairs which could have been—this and Hislop — 15. (particular resolution could have been Against: Messrs. Clucas, Ranson, tab ed to my hon. colleague’s resolution Moore, Ward, Sir Henry Sugden last February and would have saved_ and the Speaker — 6. all the paraphernalia of setting up my The Speaker: Your Excellency, the Ccmir.ittee. Why was this not done, amendment carries in the House of why are the people, on the Broadcast­ Keys, 15 votes being cast in favour and ing Commission in this particular case, 6 against. as they tabled it, why did they not propose that at that stage instead of IN THE COUNCIL— pas.ing it on to one Committee. The For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. net result has been and will be, if this Bolton, Quayle, Crellin, Nivison, is passed, that nine months has just Crowe and Simcocks — 7. gone completely down the drain. As I say, 33 months has elapsed, I believe Against : Mr. Kerruish — 1. that the future of Manx Radio lies in ■a combined effort of medium frequency The Governor: In the Council 7 and very hi°h frequency, but to votes in favour ¡and 1 against. The establish a'l-Island reception in the amendment therefore carries. I will audckest possible time and without the now put the resolution, as amended. danger of spillage into the United Those in favour please say aye, Kingdom and also looking to the long­ against, no. term future, my Committee is empha­ A division was called for and tic and unperturbed by what has resulted as follows:;— happened in this debate and is finmly resolved in the opinion that V.H.F. is IN THE KEYS— the service which should be expanded. For : Messrs. MacLeod, Kermeen, Jn the meantime we will endeavour, if Radcliffe, Miss Thornton-Duesfoery, granted an extension of life, to Messrs. Creer, Ranson, Spittall, renegotiate the terms, or rather the Cringle, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Bell, spot on the dial for medium wave. This, Irving, Miss Cowin, Mr. Devereau, ,T believe, will ensure ■ that those Mrs. Hanson, Messrs. MacDonald, listeners who listen on medium wave Hislop and Sir Henry Sugden—17. and those on V.H.F. will be adequately rerved. They have not been served in Against: Messrs. Clucas, Moore, the past and this, I believe, is the job Ward and the Speaker — 4. which you, hon. members of Tynwald, The Speaker: Your Excellency, the instructed my Select Committee to do. resolution, as amended carries in the T beg to move the resolution standing House of Keys, 17 votes being cast in in my name. favour and 4 votes against. The Governor: Hon. members, I will IN THE COUNCIL — first put the second amendment to the For : The Lord Bishop, Messrs. resolution as proposed by the hon. Bolton, Quayle, Crellin, Nivison, member for Ayre and seconded by the Crowe 'and Simcocks — 7. hon. member for South Douglas. Those in .favour please say aye, against, no. Against : Mr. Kerruish — 1. A division was called for and The Governor : In the Council, seven resulted as ¡fol’ows:*— in favour and 1 against. The resolution, as amended, therefore carries. That IN THE KEYS—- finishes our business, hon. members. For: Me, srs. MacLeod, Kermeen, The Council will now withdraw and Radcliffe, Miiss Thornton-Dues- leave Mr. Speaker to put suoh business bery, Messrs. Creer, Spittall, to the Keys as he may wish. ¡Cringle, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Bell, Irving, Miss Cowin, Mr. Devereau,

Manx Radio — Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 18, 1975 T199

HOUSE OP KEYS ibe, we will not sit the following week as, by chance, somebody has managed The Speaker: Hon. members of the to fix an election in Rushen on that House of Keys, the House will stand day and traditionally the House does adjourned until Tuesday next, 25th not sit on the day of any Bye-Election. November, at 11 a.m. As an indication You have notice now that we will not as to what the future programme will ■be sitting. Thank you, hon. members.

House of Keys. I