[Wednesday, 4 September, 1971]16 1165

The Hon. R. F, CLAUGHTON: Mr If there is any confusion in the people's Masters has talked about their not being mind all I can do is remind Mr influenced because they are represented. Claughton, who has accused the members Any selected representative of the Local of the Opposition of being confused, that Government Association who did not put they clearly are. There Is certainly some for-ward proposals about which the associa- confusion In Mr Claughton's own mind. tion felt strongly would not be on the list The Hon. D. K. Dana: I know I am con- recommended on the next occasion, f used. Point of order The Hon. N. McNEILL1: Mr Claughton endeavoured to make the point that the The Hon. V. J. FERRY: On a point of form of the Town Planning Board should order, Sir, I would ask whether Mr Claugh- not be changed even though it was first ton is not infringing Standing Order 89 introduced In 1928, and yet he is promot- which relates to tedious repetition. Ing the idea that there ought to be a DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (The Hon. R. J. L. change and that there should be a filth Williams): I feel the ground has been well member on the board; which In Itself Is a and truly covered and canvassed. change. The Hon. Ft. F. Claughton: It is not a6 Committee Resumed change of the principle of appointment. The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: This is a The Hon. N. McNEU..L: I have made my breach of privilege, It may start a chain of Point and I am sure it will help the Com- events which the Government may not be mittee if I allowed It to decide the pro- able to stem. Having appointed a direct Position before the Chair. representative of one group why should we Amendment put and negatived, not then appoint a. representative from the Clause put and passed. developers' institute, the real estate insti- tute, the architects' institute, the Institute Clauses 4 and 5 Put and passed. of surveyors; indeed, why should we not Title put and Passed. appoint one from the whole field? The Hon. D. K. Dans: What about one of Report the ratepayers? Bill reported, without amendment, and the report adopted. The Hon. R. F. GLAUGHTON: Some- thing entirely different Is being brought CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION in; none of the arguments advanced has BILL wanted this sort of change. I appeal to Receipt and First Reading members of the Opposition who are vitally Bill received from the Assembly; and, conerned with the future of town plan- on motion by the Hon. N. McNeill (Minis- ning in the State that they do not sup- ter for Justice), read a first time. port the Government proposal; they should instead support the amendment House adjourned at 9.00 p.m. before the Chair. The Hon. N. McNEILL: With very great respect I would point out that certain reference has been made to me in the course of the second reading speech which suggested I was canvassing the subject on a committee level. We have certainly cov- Wednesday, the 4th September, 1974 ered a tremendous amount of ground in the course of this Committee and in rela- The SPEAKER (Mr Hutchinson) took tion to the proposal before us. I would like the Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. to bring the thoughts of members back to what in fact we are proposing to do if the QUESTIONS (49): ON NOTICE amendment moved by Mr Dellar is to be considered. 1. POLICE Consideration of clause 3 of the 3111 will Children in Parked Cars show the effect of the motion before the Mr BATEMAN, to the Minister rep- Committee is simply to delete reference to resenting the Minister for Community a person to be selected from the panel of Welfare: three names to be submitted to the (1.) Because of the shocking accidents Minister and to add a fifth representative that have happened to children to the Town Planning Board. We expect left in cars parked outside hotels that if the amendment is carried it would for long periods of time, together be with a view to substituting an alter- with the fact that small babies can native which, again, is on the notice paper. easily dehydrate in a closed car If Reference is made that it will be a person left too long especially during the having knowledge of and experience in summer months, is he intending to matters appertaining to local government. introduce legislation to make It an That Is the basis of the Government's offence for parents to neglect their argument. children in this way? 1166 1166ASSEMBLY.]

(2) If not winl he direct his depart- (3) Are there any regulations covering ment to launch an all-out cam- the interest rate building societies paign warning. parents of the can charge on Government subsi- dangers which can occur to child- dised moneys? ren left in parked cars especially (4) If not, why not; if "Yes" what are during the summer months? they? Mr RIDGE replied: Mr O'NEIL replied: (1) In July 1974 the Western Austra- (1) Existing provisions in the Child lian Permanent Building Societies' Welfare Act allow any depart- Association, of which Perth Build- mental officer authorised by the ing Society is a member body. Minister or any Police Officer to requested a review of the inter- apprehend without warrant any est rate charged to borrowers child appearing or suspected to under an interest rate subsidy be neglected. One definition of scheme initiated by the Brand neglect in that Act refers to a Government in 1969. child who "is found in such cir- cumstances as to indicate that the (2) Approval was given for an in- mental, physical or moral welfare crease in the basic interest rate of the child is likely to be In under the scheme from 7Tj% to jeopardy". 10%. The subsidy presently is the difference between the repay- This has application to a child ment on a loan at 11M% and that found in the circumstances the required on a loan at 10j%. Member outlines. It requires. (3) No. however, that an application for neglect be lodged with a Child- (4) The scheme is only applicable to ren's Court and a court hearing. an agreement in respect of While this course of action is ap- $10 million advanced by approved propriate in some cases in other lenders as a once only operation and the State Housing Act as situations it could be extreme. amended in 1969 empowers the It Is anticipated that amendments Minister to determine the condi- to the Child Welfare Act will be tions under which such a scheme introduced during the first part would operate. of the session next year. One pro- posal will seek to formally allow 3. PINJARRA HIGH SCHOOL Police and departmental officers Enrolments to apprehend any child in danger and either take the child home or Mr SHALDERS, to the Minister rep- if the parents are not available resenting the Minister for Education: Put the child in a suitable place. (1) How many students can be If the officer is satisfied that the accommodated at the Pinjarra matter should not proceed to court Senior High School in the existing then no further action need be accommodation? taken, otherwise a neglect appli- (2) What is the anticipated enrolment cation may proceed. This would at Pinjarra Senior High School in be applied to children left in cars the years- under certain circumstances, (a) 1975; children in danger at sporting events or young children wander- (b) 1976; ing on busy highways and other (c) 1977? situations. (3) Do the anticipated enrolments (2) Publicity should be given to the in (a) to (c) above take into matter at the time amendments account the extra workforce to are introduced. be engaged by the Alcoa company at its Pinjarra site; and if so, what is the total anticipated RATES workforce increase between 1st 2. INTEREST September, 1974 and 1st January, Perth Building Society 1977? Mr BATEMAN, to the Minister for Mr MfENSAROS replied: Housing: (1) There is no absolute figure for the accommodation of a school. (1) Has an official approach been It varies according to the dis- made to him by the Perth Build- tribution of students between ing Society to raise interest rates upper and lower school, the on mortgages arranged through courses selected and the options them for money subsidised to available. The Present enrol- them from the State Housing ment -of some 700 pupils is well Commission? catered for. (2) If "Yes" by what amount did he (2) (a) 1915 (February)-78O allow Perth Building Society to 1976 (Pebruary)-800 increase the Interest rate? 1977 (Pebruary)-780-930. [Wednesday, 4 September, 19741 161167

(3) Yes. The Planning Branch of organisatlons have been advised the Education Department main- that removal of the rail will be tains close liaison with companies delayed for a short period, fol- involved in major industrial lowing closure of the line, to en- developments. The above fore- able council to examine the mat- casts are based on information ter. However, this decision is which Alcoa of Australia (W.A.) without prejudice to the Railways Ltd. has provided on a confiden- Department taking action to re- tial basis. move the rails at some future date. 4. MANDURAS PRIMARY SCHOOL 5. TEACHERS Recruitment Storage Space and Acoustics Mr T. D. EVANS, to the Minister rep- Mr SHALDERS, to the Minister rep- resenting the Minister for Education: resenting the Minister for Education: (1) How many teachers have been re- (1) (a) Have alterations to provide cruited by the Education Depart- extra storage space at the ment during the last 12 months Mandurah primary school and placed in Western Australian been commenced as yet; schools? (b) if "No" to (a), can the Min- (2) Are any of the above teaching in ister advise when a com- primary schools, and if so, how mencement will be made;, many? (c) if "No" to (b), will the Min- (3) How many eligible and available ister give an assurance that Western Australian trained teach- these alterations will be com- ers are still seeking teaching posi- pleted during 1974? tions in our schools? (2) (a) What recommendations have been made to overcome the Mr MENSAROS replied: acoustic problems existing in (1) The general concept of recruit- certain rooms at the Man- ment of teachers relates to the securing of services of teachers durah primary school: fromn outside the State. Such re- (b) when is it anticipated that cruitment could be as the result action in respect of the re- of planned campaigns or it could commendations referred to In be as a result of personal initia- (a) above will be inple- tive on the part of teachers. The merited? indications are that approximately Mr MENSAROS replied: 200 teachers joined the depart- (1) and (2) Both matters are cur- ment during the last twelve rently being assessed. Finance months under schemes initiated has been allocated for the store- and sponsored by the Education room from the 1974-75 school Department. It is not possible buildings improvement item, but to estimate the indirect forms of until a full study has been com- recruitment, pleted of the acoustical problem, (2) Approximately half of these teaoch- no indication can be given of the ens have been appointed to prim- action which will be undertaken. ary schools. (3) The Education Department has 5. RAILWAYS published many notices advising qualified teachers of vacancies. Kalgoorlie-Boulder Loop Line Any estimate of available West- Mr T. D. EVANS, to the Minister for ern Australian teachers can, thus, Transport: only be based on the response to (1) Has there been a definite decision the advertisements, made to remove the narrow gauge The number of available teachers railway line known as the Sal- is subject to rapid variation in goorlie-Boulder loop line? which, at some times, there are a (2) Have representations beenl made number of unfilled vacancies for preservation of this line in the whilst at other times, there may interests of promotion of tourism be a. small surplus of approxi- in the eastern goldflelds? mately twenty teachers. (3) If not, would he be prepared to 7, MINES DEPARTMENT receive such representations? Kalgoorlie Office Mr O'CONNOR replied: Mr T. D). EVANS, to the Minister for (1) No. Mines: (2) and (3) Yes. Representations (1) When is it expected that work have been made to the Comils- will commence on construction of sioner of Railways by the Town the new Mines Department offie of Kalgoorlie and the Golden in Kalgoorlie adjacent to the Mile Loop Line Committee. These courthouse? 1168 1168ASSEMBLY.]

(2) When Is it hoped that the build- (b3)was It in connection with ing will be completed and oc- the sale of properties cupied? covered under the li- Mr MENSAROS replied: censes? (2) From whom and to Whom (1) Subject to availability of funds. were the licenses transferred tenders will be called during Nov- and did the vendor receive ember, and construction should financial consideration for the commence in January, 1975. license? (2) A construction period of nine (3) Would he provide a list show- months will be incorporated into ing the location of the 31 contract documents. presently licensed bird deal- It would be greatly appreciated if ers in the State? the Member would use informa- Mr STEPHENS replied: tion given to questions of other Members (in this case question 22 (1) (a) These two licenses were on 20/8/74) which would avoid transferred on application duplication of answers. from persons who wished to purchase businesses. a. SALES TAX (b) I understand that in one case the sale of Property was Rail Freights involved. Mr OLD, to the Premier: (2) Mrs M. Hayward sold the business (1) Is he aware that sales tax is being at- charged in some instances on Aquarium World, freight and cartage to rail on Rocklngham Road, goods being dispatched to country Hamilton Hill, areas, thus increasing the finan- to Mr N. Rowe. cial burden already being experi- enced by rural residents due to Mr M. Wheat sold the business freight increases? at- Shop 5, Shopping Village, (2) If so, will he take the matter up Kelmscott, with the Federal T'reasurer in an to Mr J. Theobold. endeavour to have the anomaly rectified by having sales tax ap- I have no knowledge of the finian- plicable at the point of supply? cial consideration received by the vendors. Sir CHARLES COURT replied: (3) List as follows- (1) I understand this is the Position Bird Dealers as at 4/9/74 In certain cases, and, as a result of representations received from Name; Address: Expiry date; other areas, and particularly from License No. the north-west and Kimberley R. H. Barrett & Co.; Rear 868 Al- Members, I am having studies bany Highway, East Victoria made. Park, W.A.: 18/6/75; 075. In this regard, I would appre- M. C. Barrett: 208 Varden Street, ciate specific Instances from the Kalgoorlie, WA: 29/6/75: 083. Member which will assist in the M. Pavisich: L/83 Dunholme studies. Street. Osborne Park, W.A. (2) Past representations do not ap- 13/8/75; 019. pear to have been very success- R. L. Weir; 2251 Albany Highway, ful, but I shall be only too Pleased Gosnells, WA; 10/8/75; 078. to have the matter taken up with E. Davis; 153 Arinadale Road, the Federal Treasurer when the Rivervale, WA; 7/9/74; 053. current studies are completed, and C. McGinnis; 5 Harkins Way, a suitable case established. Balga, WA: 22/9/74: 054. Fremantle Pet Care Centre; 34 9. BIRD DEALERS High Street, Fremantle, WA: Licensing 7/9/75; 087. J. Gregory; Master Mike Pet Shop, Mr MOILER, to the Minister for Fish- Shop 45, La Plaza, Bentley, WA; eries and Fauna: 6/9/74; 052. Referring to question 9, Wednes- G. J1. Swallow; 755A Canning day, 14th August, and answer Highway, Applecross, WA; thereto in connection with the 13/9/74: 055. licensing of bird dealers- R. K. Clarke; 3 Gosnells Road, (1) (a) Under what circum- Gosnells, WA; 5/11/74; 080. stances were two licenses K. Mart Aust. Ltd.; 20 Collier transferred during the Road. Morley, WA; 16/11/74; past 12 months: 059. [Wednesday. 4 September, 19741 116918

J7. Marshall; 205 Second Street, to the SHO through the Parlia- Wonthella, Geraldton, WA; mentai'y Liaison Officer for each 12/11/74; 067. of the months, January, 1974 to H. Bozuwa; New Growth Plant & August 1974 inclusive? Bird Nurseries, Welshpool Road, (2) Would he also advise the number Wattle Grove, WA; 2/12/74; of like matters referred on ap- 064. peal to him as Minister for Hous- G. Ross; 21 Edward Street, Bed- ing for the months April 1974 to ford, WA; 9/1/75; 066. August 1974 inclusive? B. Alder; 2A Finders Lane, Rock- ingham, WA.; 17/1/75; 082. Mr O'NEU4 replied: L. & K. Jeffries; 82 Morley Drive, (1) Recorded inquiries from Members Morley, W.A.; 31/1/75; 089. through the Parliamentary Lai- E. C. Ashworth; 8 Bedingfield son officer for each month from Road, Pinijarra, WA; 30/4/75; January 1974 to August 1974 (in- 073. clusive) were as follows- H. 0. Reidinger; 829 Beaufort Street, Inglewood, WA; 11/4/75; January-44; 074. February-138; Mrs B. Budd; 159 Varden Street, March-276; Kalgoorlie, WA; 6/4/75: 071. Aprll-248; P. J. Marchand; Pet & Aquarium May-319; Centre, 169 Marine Terrace. Geraldton. WA; 13/5/75; 072. June-310; July-352; J7. Theobold: Shop 5, Shopping Village, Kelmscott, WA; 3/6/15; August-358. 081. Total for the eight months period: David Jones Ltd.; Garden City, 2 065. Booragoon, WA; 28/8/75: 084. Note: These figures are the total Kambalda Pet Supplies (L. J. C. of the recorded inquiries but Barnett) ; Kambalda. WA; some of the telephoned In- 10/10/74; 057. quiries which are answered immediately are not recorded. Mrs Kane; Karrinyup Shopping Inquiries from ox-Members of Centre, Karrlnyup, WA; Parliament are not included 6/11/74; 061. in the figures supplied. That "Fish and Pets" (M. J. Wheat); includes members who either 181 Sevenoaks Street, Queens retired from Parliament or Park, WA; 8/11/74; 062. were defeated at the election N. A. Spalding & T. E. Taylor; Mr Taylor: Or Federal members who Lot 31 Hale Road, Wattle Grove, also applied. WA; 12/11/74; 063. Mr O'NEILL: I understand there Is E. Symonds; 845 Hay Street, no need to keep records of those Perth, WA; 11/9/75; 080. members who are no longer with N. Rowe, 41A Rockingham Read, us. Once the department is atis- Hamilton Hill, WA; 24/1/75; fled that it has no further use for 068. the records, they are destroyed, S. T. Lawn; 32 Townshend Road, (2) Recorded inquiries from members Sublaco, WA; 1/3/75; 070. referred to the Minister for V. Bowery; Mandurab Pet Shop, Housing for each month from Smart Street, Mandurah, WA; April 1974 to August 1914 (inccu- 1/7/75; 078. sive) were as follows-- M. Kane; 51 Walter Road, fin- April-42: nella, WA; 3/7/75; 077. May-52; A. Fazekas (issued 15/8/74); 210 June-5i; Varden Street, Kalgoorlie. WA; July-42; 15/8/75; 085. August--39. Total for the five months period: HOUSING 226. Inquiries and Appeals: Members of Note: These figures include all Parliament approaches made by members Mr TAYLOR, to the Minister for direct to the Minister for Housing: Housing and do not necess- (1> Would he advise the number of arily represent appeals against inquiries on housing matters re- previous decisions, records of ferred by Members of Parliament which are not kept separately. 1170 1170(ASSEMBLY,)

it. LESMURDIE SCHOOL (2) The Policies of the Water Board and Public Works Department are Additions to ensure that these by-laws are Mr THOMPSON, to the Minister rep- observed by members of the public resenting the Minister for Education: and other users of catchment (1) Is he aware that major additions areas. to the Lesmurdie primary school. which were to have been com- 14. CONSUMER PROTECTION pleted before the start of the 1974 school year, later promised by the Ready-mixed Concrete Tonkin Government to be ready Mr THOMPSON, to the Minister for by the end of second term, are Works: no further advanced now than they were when the Government (1) Is he aware that- changed? (a) many persons who regularly (2) Will he state the reason for the use concrete supplied by delay? batching plants in the Perth (3) What is the present expected date metropolitan area consider of completion? that the reputed quantity of concrete (sold by cubic mea- Mr MENSAROS replied: sure) supplied during wet months of the year is con- (1) Yes. siderably less than compare- (2) The major problem was that the able quantities in other contractors were placed In the months; bands of a receiver. This problem (b) one contractor has stated that has now been determined and because batching is effected by work is to continue. separately weighing the sand. (3) Occupation is not anticipated aggregate and cement the re- before the end of the 1974 school sultant mix when the sand year. and aggregate material is wet will be less in cubic content than when the same material 12. SCHOOL is dry? Carnel (2) Will he have the matter investi- Mr THOMPSON, to the Minister rep- gated and, if there is any dis- resenting the Minister for Education: crepancy, take steps to protect the contractors involved? What is the future of the junior primary school at Carmel? Mr O'NEI replied: Mr MENSAROS replied: (1) (a) and (b) No, As with all small schools In old (2) Concrete companies supplying buildings the future is under pre-mixed concrete in the metro- frequent review. There are no in- politan area are aware that the tentions of any early closure. basic materials of sand and aggre- gate carry more moisture in winter 13. WATER SUPPLIES than in summer. They regularly test this and make allowance for Catchfment Areas: Policy it when assessing the weight of Mr THOMPSON, to the Minister for the aggregates needed to fulfil Water Supplies: the cubic requirements of the ordered concrete. (1) Has the Metropolitan Water Board and/or the country town Concrete quality is controlled water supply section of the PWD by the "Slump" and "developed a firm poicy regarding the use strength", both of which are of catchment areas for recreation effectively reduced as the water purposes? content is Increased. To reinstate this reduction, it is necessary to (2) if so, what is the policy? Increase the cement content-the Mr O'NEfL. replied:. most expensive commodity in the (1) Par the protection of catchment mix. Therefore, it is in the best areas, the by-laws of the Metro- interests of economy for the com- politan Water Board and Country pany to see that minimum total Towns Water Supply section of water is included in the final mix. the Public Works Department pro- It Is to be noted that small, dimnen- hibit camping, shooting, fishing, sional errors can produce a con- sailing and other activities likely siderable effect on the final volume to result in pollution of catchinent of concrete required, i.e. in a areas, tributary streams and house slab floor of 50 feet x 20 stored water. feet, where the excavation Is 41 [ Wednesday, 4 September. 1074) 117117

inches instead of 4 inches, the (3) $12 million plus land. volume required Is Increased to 13 (4) There is no increase in the price cubic yards Instead of 12J cubic originally negotiated between the yards. commission and the EPT. The price was based on a schedule of 15. LOCAL GOVERNMvENT AND rates which included normal pro- HIGH SCHOOLS vision for escalation. Libraries: Amalgamation 17. MINING ACT Mr THOMPSON, to the Minister rep- resenting the Minister for Education:. Amendment; Submissions As the Government has indicated Mr MAY, to the Minister for Mines: its intention to involve the public (1) What method is being used to more in education than has been obtain submissions from thle in- done in the past, will the Minis- dustry and others regarding the ter give consideration to combin- proposed review of the Mining ing the libraries operated by local Act? authorities with those modemn (2) Is an Independent committee com- units which are provided at the prising private industry and Gov- Government high schools? ernment officials to be set up to Mr MENSAROS replied: review the submissions? Community libraries are estab- (3) Is it intended to Introduce a new lished by the State Library Board Bill in lieu of amending the pres- under an Act of Parliament. ent legislation? School libraries are established (4) What is the dealine for the pres- and financed under quite different conditions. entations of submissions? Previous investigations have shown Mr MENSAROS replied: that the fundamental purpose, (1) Invitation through the Press. standing, nature of the book (2) Another committee is not con- stocks and usage are so different templated at present, but there as to make integration difficult. will be the widest range of con- sultation with interested parties. 18. KWINANA-BALGA POWER (3) Yes. LINE (4) 8th November, 1974. Westerly and Easterly Routes: Completion and Cost 18. STATE ELECTRICITY Mr THOMPSON, to the Minister for COMIMISSION Electricity: Chairman: Successor (1) What is the expected date of com- Mr MAY, to the Minister for Elec- pletion of- tricity: (a) the westerly; (1) in view of the forthcoming re- (b) the easterly, tirement of the Chairman of the route of the 330kV Kwinana- State Electricity Commission, has Balga power line? his successor been appointed or (2) If both lines are not to be com- recommended? pleted and commissioned at the (2) If so, will he advise the name of same time, will he state why there the new chairman? has been a change from the pre- (3) Because of the necessity for con- viously stated condition that both tinued close co-operation between lines were necessary so as to pro- the SEC and the Fuel and Power vide security of supply? Commission, has consideration (3) What now is the estimated cost been given to the appointment of of the completed lines? the Commissioner for Fuel and (4) Has there been an Increase in the Power to the State Electricity price originally negotiated between CommiSion? the Commission and HIT: If so, Mr MENSAROS replied: by what amount and for what reasons? (1) A successor to the chairman has been recommended. Mr 3MSAROS replied: (2) The appointee will be announced (1) (a) 31st March, 1975. when approved by the Governor- (b) 31st August, 1975. in-Thcecutive-Council. (2) There is no change from the pre- (3) Consideration has been given to viously stated condition. Both lines the widest Possible circle of people will be available when the first eligible in order to arrive at an 200 MW generator at Swinana appointment which is in the best Power Station is cleared for con- interests of the SEC and the tinuous, full load service. community it serves. 1172 1172ASSEMBLY.]

19. FARMS AND PASTORAL cluding cartage and dairy factory LEASES, KIMBERLEY operations in- Foreign Takeover (a) 1968; (b) 1973? Mr H. 1). EVANS, to the Minister for Lands: Mr GRAYDEN replied: This information is not immedi- (1) Is the report contained in The ately available. An endeavour will West Australian newspaper of 23rd August, 1974 that two Middle East be made to obtain same and I will countries have made offers worth advise the Member direct. a total of $30 million for shares of a company that owns seven ir- 21. T'his question was postponed. rigated farms and cattle stations in the Kiniberleys. correct? 22. PENSIONERS Taxi Fares Concession (2) Which Middle East countries are involved, and what is the name Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister repre- of the company concerned? senting the Minister for Community Welfare: (3) Are any irrigated farms at Kunu- nurra included in the offer? What assistance is being given or does the Government intend to (4) What is the total number of cattle give to pensioners who by reason stations located in the Kimnberley of Physical disability cannot region? travel by bus or rail transport (5) How many of these are held by and take advantage of the existing a controlling overseas ownership concessions to pensioners but interest? must travel by taxi and Incur the heavy expense associated there- Mr RIDGE replied: with? (1) No approach has been made to the Mr RIDGE replied: Lands and Surveys Department in this matter. No alternative scheme is available to pensioners who by reason of (2) In view of (1), I am not in a posi- physical disability cannot travel by tion to name the Middle East bus or rail transport and take countries referred to in the news- advantage of existing concessions paper report. The controlling and must travel by taxi. interest in the cattle stations mentioned in the report is held However, individual cases of by the Australian Land and Cattle physically handicapped pensioners Company Limited. suffering severe financial hardship due to the necessity to use alter- (3) Not known. native transport may apply to the (4) 102. Department for Community (5) The department has no way of Welfare for special and individual knowing when companies become consideration. controlled by overseas interests. The member may care to suggest On the basis of company share to the pensioner group concerned transactions notified to the depart- that they put their case to the ment, it is known that 17 sta- committee which the Government tions would come into this cate- intends setting up in the near gory. Although the department is future to inquire into concessions not aware of the information re- and fringe benefits available to quested, I am quite sure it would pensioners. be available from other depart- mental sources. 23. INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT Projects under 50 Per Cent Australian- 20. WHOLE AND MANUFACTURING owned MILK SECTIONS Mr BERTRAM, to the Premier: Work Force Which are the major industrial Mr H. D). EVANS, to the Minister for projects in Western Australia Labour and Industry: which are less than 50% Austra- lian owned but will be 50% Aus- (1) How many People in Western Auls- tralia were employed in the whole tralian owned by 1980? milk industry including carting, Sir CHARLES COURT replied: treatment plant and delivery op- The Liberal Party Policy document erations in- for 30th March State General (a) 1968: Elections read as follows on this (b) 1973? particular point:- (2) How many people were employed "We will negotiate for majority in the manufacture of dairy pro- Australian ownership, either in ducts in Western Australia, in- the short-term or the long-term. (Wednesday, 4 September, 19741

wherever Australians are willing cil, prior to the submission of the or able to contribute the funds. scheme to the Town Planning our initial objective will be a Board. majority Australian ownership (2) Depending on the successful con- In all major W.A. projects by clusion of discussions being held 1980. with council, it is anticipated the it will be by sensible negotia- scheme will be presented to the tion, and not by statutory or board in 4 to 6 weeks. I will then arbitrary direction." be in a position to make a deci- Already negotiations have been sion. commenced in selected cases to- wards achieving this objective. 26. HEALTHI For reasons which I would hope would be obvious to the Member, Arteriosclerosis: Treatment I am not prepared to nominate Mr DAVIES, to the Minister represent- the specific industrial projects ing the Minister for Health: involved. (1) Is the treatment of arteriosclerosis as promoted by Dr Moeller of 24. LOCAL GOVERNMENT Germany now being used in this FINANCES State at any Government hos- Revenue and Expenditure pitals? (2) If so- Mr IT. H. JONES, to the Minister for Local Government: (a) where is it used; For the year 1972-73 and for each (b) when did It start; local government district in West- (c) what local expertise Is avail- ern Australia, will he table the able; following information- (d) how many patients have re- (a) the total sumn of revenue ceived the treatment; (excluding electricity and Ce) is he able to Indicate a mea- loan); sure of its success? (b) the total amount assessed as (3) If not, what is the reason for the rates; delay? (c) the unimproved values of property; Mr RIDGE replied: (d) the annual values of pro- (1) No. perty; (2) Answered by (1). (e) the costs of general adminis- tration; (3) No delay has occurred in the pre- liminary testing of a machine (f) the total loan Indebtedness: which was acquired by the Gov- (g) the amount paid in interest ernmenit from Dr. W. Moeller in on bank overdrafts; July. Extensive mechanical tests (h) the amount paid in interest have been necessary to establish on loans by local authorities; the levels of performance and Ui) the total loan redemption? safety of the machine under differ- ent conditions. These tests are still Mr RUSHTON replied;. in progress, but it is anticipated Yes. As soon as the detail re- that a controlled clinical trial of quested can be obtained. suitable patients with peripheral arteriosclerosis will be able to 25. TOWN PLANNING commence in approximately one month. Shire of Wanneroo: Scheme No. 7A Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister for Urban Development and Town Plan- 27. CHILD WELFARE ACT ning:. Amendment (1) Is he currently considering Shire Mr DAVIES, to the Minister represent- of Wanneroo town planning ing the Minister for Community scheme No. ?IA? Welfare: (2) It so, when is it expected that he Is it anticipated Parliament will be will make his decision in respect asked to consider amendments to to it? the Child Welfare Act this session? Mr RUSHTON replied: Mr RIDGE replied: (1) Wanneroo Town Planning Scheme No. it is hoped to introduce No 7IA is currently being examined amendments to the Child Welfare by officers of miy department, in Act during the first part of the consultation with officers of coun- session next year. 1174 174[ABSE1MBLY.J

28. HEALTH The SPEAKER replied: Kerosene: Colour unless the Member has firm in- Mr CARR, to the Minister representing formation that the writ referred to in the Member for Mt. Haw- the Minister f or Health: thorn's previous question has been (1) is the Minister aware that blue- withdrawn, or otherwise finalised, coloured wines are currently on it is my intention to continue con- the market? stancy in the application of the (2) Does the Minister acknowledge the sub judice rule. possible danger to children through confusion with kerosene? 31. INDUSTRIAL EFFLUENT (3) Will the Minister consider amend- ments to the Poisons Act regula- Cockburn Sound tions or the Food and Drug regu- Mr BARNETT, to the Minister for lations with a view to preserving Fisheries and Fauna: the previously distinct appearance of kerosene? (1) Is it a fact that whilst the Garden Island causeway has not changed Mr RIDGE replied: the flushing rate of the water in (1) Yes. Cockburn Sound, the production (2) There is a possibility of danger to of industries centred on the sound young children of non-discrimina- has increased appreciably since ting ages when hazardous sub- the building of the causeway? stances, including kerosene are (2) If "Yes"- placed within their reach. (3) The Poisons Act Regulations were (a) by what amount has produc- amended in 1971 to require con- tion increased; tainers of distinctive appearance (b) has this had the effect of and shape for kerosene purchased increasing the effluent dis- in household quantities. charge into the sound; (c) what action does the Govern- 9. CORRESPONDENCE SCHOOLS ment propose to remedy the Abroliws Islands situation? Mr CARR, to the Minister representing Mr STEPHENS replied: the Minister for Education: (1) and (2) No. From an environ- Will the Minister detail the extent mental point of view, reports re- of Government assistance to the ceived do not indicate any dele- private correspondence schools terious consequence which can be operating on the various Abroihos directly related to any change of Islands during the crayfishing production of industries near season? Cockburn Sound since the build- Mr MENSAROS replied: ing of the causeway. The Environmental Protection The Education Department is not Authority is currently preparing aware of any Private corres- guidelines for a comprehensive pondence schools operating on study of the effects of the various the Abrolbos Islands. A number effluents on the ecosystem of of pupils living in that area are Cockburn Sound with a view to enrolled with the WA Corres- developing a sound management pondence School conducted by Programme for the multi-purpose the department and the parents use of the area. of these pupils are eligible to receive a basic Commonwealth allowance of $200 for each full- 32. QUO flAS time pupil and a further allow- Rottnest Island ance of $150 per annumn per pupil as a reimbursement of approved Mr BARNETT, to the Minister for educational expenditure. Fisheries and Fauna: (1) is it a fact that quokkas are taken 30. PREMIER from Rottuest Island for the pur- pose of research? Personal Explanation on 14th September, 1972: Comments (2) If so. will he Please advise how many quokkas have been taken Mr .JAMIESON, to the Speaker: and by what organisations for Is the matter contained in ques- each of the last ten years? tion 29 on 6th August, 1974 still subject to the sub Judice rule of Mr STEPHENS replied: Standing Orders? (1) Yes. (Wednesday. 4 September, 1974] 117517

(2) The following numbers of quokkas (2) Section 4 of the Land Act pro- have been taken under license by vides that nothing in the Act shall the University of Western Aus- affect, or be construed to dero- tralia for research purpose-- gate from the operation of the 1964-65-420 Mining Act. 1965-66-.--235 1966-67-42 39. MINERAL CLAWMS 102 1967-68-47 AND 1024 1968-69-108 1969-70-131 Objiections 1970-71-157 Mr A. Ft. TONKDJN, to the Minister for 2971- 72-63 Mines: 1972-73-66 1973-74-101l (1) What objections had been lodged in regard to applications concern- 33. KATANNING POLICE Ing MC 1002 and MC 1024? STATION (2) What were the mining warden's Upgrading recommended conditions in regard Mr OLD, to the Minister for Police: to approval of these applications? (1) Has he plans to upgrade the Mr MENSAROS replied: Katanning police station? (1) MC 100211-No objections lodged. (2) If so, when will upgrading take MC 1024H1-Objection 788H1/70 place? lodged 3 pm on 3D0/6/70 by Shire of Busselton. Withdrawn by leave Mr O'CONNOR replied: 15/8/73. (1) Yes. (2) MC 1002H1 (2) 1976-77, subject to funds being available. (0) Survey. (ii) The complete excision of any 34 to 36. These questions were postponed. Portion encroaching on Sus- sex Locations 220 and 238. 37. ROAD TRANSPORT (ill) The terms and conditions expressed in a certain Inden- Fruit and Perishables: Perth ture dated 31st January, 1967 and Southi-west between the applicant and t~he Mr B3LAIKIE. to the Minister for Conservator of Forests. Transport: (iv) A simultaneous method of mining and back filling being (1) Foliowing representations made to employed. the Minister regarding road trans- (v) No excavation approaching port of fruit to Perth from south- closer to the boundary of any west areas and the road transpor- road reserve than a distance tation of perishables from the equal to twice the depth of metropolitan area to south-west the excavation. towns, would he advise of any (vi) All mining excavations and decision to date? slime dams being progress- (2) If "No" when Is it anticipated a ively back filled and contoured decision will be made? to the satisfaction of the Mining Engineer-District In- Mr O'CONNOR replied: spector of Mines. (1) No decision has yet been made. (vii) Top soil to a minimum depth (2) A decision will be made as soon of six inches being removed ahead of mining operations as possible. and stockpiled for replace- ment after back filling is comn- 33. LAND pleted, such replacement to be Reserves; Controlling Authority carried out progressively as mining advances. Mr A. R. TONKIN, to the Minister for Lands: (viii) Rehabillation being kept as close as practicable to the (1) Under the provisions of the mining excavations and the Land Act, 1933, which authority rehabilitated areas being re- approves of the establishment of planted with suitable grass, reserves? cereals, shrubs or other suit- (2) Is this Act subservient to the able vegetation, and where operations of the Mining Act, considered necessary by the 1904? Mining Engineer-District In- spec tor of Mines, brush fences Mr RIDGE replied: or other means to prevent (1) The Governor, by virtue of sec- sand drift and dust nuisance tion 29 of the Land Act. being provided. 2176 1176ASSEMBLY. I

(ix) Provision being made to pre- 202811-Objection 112811/70 lodged vent the discharge of tailings1 3/8/70 by Conservator of slimes, pollutants or over- Forests. burden into the surrounding 2030I11-ObjectIon 110311/70 lodged country, water courses or 3/8/70 by Conservator of lakes. Forests. MC 1024H1 203111-Objection 791H1/70 lodged (I) Survey, 30/5/70 by Shire of Bussel- (ii) The terns and conditions ton. expressed in a certain Inden- Objection 1105H1/70 lodged ture dated the 31st January, 3/8/70 by Conservator of 1967 between the applicant Forests. and the Conservator of 70/10692--Objeotlon 652H1/72 lodg- Forests. ed 12/10/72 by Conservator of Forests. 70/11448-ObjectIon 3111/73 lodg- 40. MINERAL CLAIMS ed 13/2/73 by Conservator of Ludlow Tuart Forest: Objections Forests. Mr A. R. TONKIN, to the Minister for 70/11583-Obiectlon 539H1/73 lodg- Mines: ed 11/12/73 by Conservator of (1) What objections have been lodged Forests. In regard to other mineral claims (2) No hearing dates have yet been in the Ludlow tuart forest that set. have not yet been approved? (2) What dates have been set for 41. MINERAL CLAIMS 1002 hearings in the warden's court? AND 1024 Mr MENSAROS replied: River Pollution: safeguard (1) 100011-ObjectIon 76111/71 lodged Mr A. R. TONKIN, to the Minister for 8/10/70 by Conservator of Mines: Forests. iD01iN-Objectlon 76211/71 lodged (1) Is the Mines Department aware of 8/10/70 by Conservator of references made to wetland pol- Forests. lution In Dr '1. Riggerts' report on 10251-Objection 78611/70 lodged Swan Coastal Plain wetland 30/6/74 by Shire of Busselton. (1956)? objection 76311/71 lodged (2) Which rivers pass through or are 8/10/70 by Conservator of close to mineral claim Nos 1002 Forests. and 1024? 10261-Objectlon 764H1/71 lodged (3) Have any conditions been laid 8/10/70 by Conservator of down in granting these claims to Forests. prevent pollution of streams and 201111-Objection 108911/70 lodged estuaries specifically? 3/8/70 by Conservator of Forests. t4) Will he table all conditions in- 201211-Objection 1125H1/70 lodged posed in regard to the granting of 3/8/70 by Conservator of mineral claims 1002 and 1024? Forests. Mr MENSAROS replied: 2013H1-Objection 1122H/70 lodged (1) No. 3/8/70 by Conservator of Forests. (2) Ludlow River passes close to min- eral claim 100211. 2015H1-ObjectIon 140H/70 lodged 3/3/70 by F. T. & C. C. (3) MC 100211-Yes. Tucker. MC 102411-No. Objection 789H/70 lodged (4) Conditions of approval are tabled 30/6/70 by $hire of Busse]- herewith. ton. The conditions of apProval were Objection 1127H1/70 lodged tabled (see Paper No. 210). 3/8/70 by Conservator of Forests. 42. CONSERVATION THROUGH 202211-Objection 143H1/70 lodged RESERVES COMfII'E 3/3/70 by F, T. & C. C. Technical Subcommittee Tucker. Objection 79011/70 lodged Mr A. R. TONKIN, to the Minister for 30/6/70 by Shire of Eussel- Conservation and Environment: ton. (1) Who are the members of the tech- Objection 110711/70 lodged nical subcommnittee of the con- 3/8/70 by Conservator of servation through reserves com- Forests. mittee? [Wednesday, 4 September, 1974] 1177

(2) When was the subcommittee 44. PASTORAL APPRAISEMENT formed and on how many occa- BOARD slons has it met? Membership and Functions (3) What areas of the State has it Mr A. Rt.TONKI, to the Minister for visited? Lands: Mr STEPHENS replied: (1) Who are the members of the (1) Professor R, T. Appicyard, Pro- Pastoral Appraisement Board? fessor of economic history Uni- (2) What is the function and duties of versity of Western Australia. (Convenor); this body? Dr A. A. Burbidge, Senior Research Mr RIDGE replied: Officer, Fauna Research Branch, (1) J. F. Morgan-Surveyor General Department of Fisheries and -Chairman. Fauna: E. N. Fitzpatrick-Director of Mr A. S. George, Western Aus- Agriculture-Member. tralian Herbarium, Department W. 0. Henderson-Deputy-Bur- of Agriculture; veyor General-Member. Dr B. W. Logan, Reader in Geology E.' F. Broad-Pastoralst-Member. University of western Australia; and (2) To advise the Minister for Lands Mr J. H. Lord, Director, Geological on matters pertaining to pastoral Surveys Branch. Mines Depart- leases with particular reference to ment. lease rentals, granting of rent relief, development and stocking (2) The subcommittee was formed in of pastoral leases. August 1972. It met once per fort- night between that date and July 45. PASTORAL LEASES 1973, then between August 1973 and November 1973 members were Total Area seconded to the Department of Environmental Protection and Mr A. R. TONKIN, to the Minister for met for three full days per week. Lands;: Between December 1973 and (1) What was the area of pastoral August 1974 the subcommittee leases in the State as at 30th June, met once or twice per week. 1974? (3) Despite the members extensive (2) What was the area of the above knowledge of the State gained In in 1970? their various Professional capaci- ties, light aircraft inspections Mr RIDGE replied: were made of the north-west as (1) 97 950 768 hectares. far as Port Hedland, the Pilbara, the Murchison, the northern (2) 97 433 000 hectares. coast, Cape Naturaliste-Leeuwin area, the wheat belt and the area 46. TOWN PLANlNING from Albany to Esperance. Ground Canan'on-Cape Arid Coastline visits were made to various areas where more detailed inspections Mr A. R. TONKIN, to the Minister for were considered appropriate. Urban Development and Town Plan- ning: 43. LUDLOW TUART FOREST (1) Would he list, under locality and flmenite Mining type of development, currently proposed residential and/or tourist Mr A. R. TONKIN, to the Minister for complex developments that are Conservation and Environment: coast-oriented between Carnarvon (1) Further to the answers given to and Cape Arid and which have question 12 on 12th August, con- been submitted to his department sidering that a large part of the since 30Lh June, 1972? Ludlow tuart forest has been peg- ged for ilmenite for some time, has (2) Which of these have been ap- the Environmental Protection proved and on what dates? Authority invoked section 55 of the Mr RUSHTON replied: Environmental Protection Act in (1) Development applications are this regard? handled by local authorities. The (2) If so, on what date? detailed information which the Member seeks is not available Mr STEPHENS replied: within the Town Planning De- (1) No. partmnent. (2) Answered by (1). (2) Answered by (1). 1178 178[ASSENMBLY.]

47. UNDERGROUND WATER it will be quite usable. Investiga- SUPPLIES tions are riot complete. The satu- rated thickness Is only 10 to 30 Coastal Plain metres., Mr A. R. TONKIN, to the Minister for (3) Intensive work has been under way Water Supplies: for a number of years, but is not (1) What is the known or estimated yet complete. volume of unconfined underground water on the coastal plain- 49. EMERGENCY BUFFER (a) between the Swan and Moore FUEL COMMITTEE Rivers: Function and Recommendation (b) between the Swan River and Peel Inlet? Mr MAY, to the Minister for Fuel and Energy:. (2) What is the known or estimated annual recharge rate of both the (1) Is the emergency buffer fuel com- above? mittee appointed by the Tonkin Government still operating? Mr O'I4EIL replied: (2) If so, will he advise the dates of (1) (a) A conservative estimate is the last four meetings? 1 500 million cubic metres of (3) Did this committee make any water In storage. The through- recommendation to the Govern- flow is estimated at 40 million ment that emergency legislation * cubic metres per year. should be introduced into Parlia- (b) As a rough estimate, one- ment? * fourth to one-third of the (4) If not, on whose recommendation Swan-Moore River area. was the current Fuel, Energy and (2) Swan-Moore River area-- Power Resources Act Amendment Equivalent to the throughlow Bill 1974 introduced? quoted above, about 40 million Mr MENSAROS replied: cubic metres per year. (1) Yes, under the name of Emergency Swan River-Peel Inlet area- Fuel Supplies Committee. This Not yet known, possibly a third change of name took place in 1973, of the volume given for the under the Tonkin Government. Swan-Moore River area. (2) 15th July, 1974. 1st July, 1974. 48. UNDERGROUND WATER 29th May, 1974. 24th April. 1974. SUPPLIES (3) The task of the committee is to CGnangara Mound, and Evaluation advise the commission. In this Mr A. R. TONKIN, to the Minister for capacity it was aware of and Water Supplies; indeed Perused the Cabinet minute which my predecessor submitted to (1) What are the basic characteristics the Tonkin Cabinet. As our Gov- of the Onangara Mound? ernment continued the policy re- (2) Is there a similar structure south commended by this Cabinet minute Swan River? there was no further action or of the advice necessary by the committee. (3) Has any overall evaluation yet (4) Answered by (3). been made of Perth's underground water resources? QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE Mr O'NEIL. replied: POLICE (1) Sands and silty sands extending Arming from natural surface to a maxi- mum depth of about 50 metres Mr B. T. BURKE, to the Minister for with little or no surface drainage. Police: (1) What is the policy or practice fol- The area is charged with low lowed by the Police Department in salinity (potable) shallow ground- allowing its officers to go armed water, recharged by direct In public? downward Percolation from local rainfall. It is considered a very (2) Was there any incident involving Important prospective source of armed police in Great Eastern domestic water for the metro- Highway on the night of the 25th politan area, and should be care- August or early in the morning of fully Protected from contamina- the 26th August? tion. (3) What was the cause of any such (2) Yes, but more limited in extent, incident? and not so valuable a prospective (4) What did the incident involve? source of domestic water, although (5) Were any shots fired? (Wednesday, 4 September, 1974] 1179

(6) If "Yes", who fired the shots? She enlisted aid from local government to call meetings of the people within the ('7) were the shots fired in the lawful various shires. I have knowledge of only exercise of anyone's duty? four meetings which I attended, but from (8) Did any member of the public inquiries I have made I understand that draw any such incident to the additional meetings followed much Whe notice of the Police Department? same pattern as those I attended. The with re- worker from the Social Security Depart- (9) What action was taken ment made it clear to everyone that we gard to any report received? were to be involved-that the Government (10) Was any action taken to prevent wished the People of the south-west region publication of the details of any to be involved-at the grass roots level such incident? of the scheme. She asked each shire to Mrt O'CONNOR replied: set up a local committee and suggested that the categories to be represented should (1) to (10) I have no personal know- include education, community projects, ledge of the incident referred to sport, medical, youth, general welfare, and but inquiries are being made and geriatrics. a reply to the honourable mem- ber's question will be furnished as Each committee was to draw up a con- soon as possible. stitution, and then collate all the informa- tion available from within its particular area. After the collation of the Informa- AUSTRALIAN ASSISTANCE PLAN tion the committees were to recommend Implementation in South-West: that assistance be given to those applicants Grievance In order of Priority who would be of great- est benefit to the community. MRS CRAIG (Wellington) [5.08 p.m.]: It Is my wish to bring to the notice of The next step was for each committee to members today some information about choose two delegates who were to attend the Australian Assistance Plan of the meetings of the subregional committee. Social Welfare Committee, a Pilot Pro- Alter the submissions had been considered gramme in the south-west region. by the subregional committee, that com- mittee appointed delegates to the Southern I do not know how many members have Region Social Development Board. The read the paper which I now hold In my board then elected delegates who finally hand: it is, indeed, only a discussion paper handed the submissions to the Western on the Australian Assistance Plan. might Australian regional council of the Aus- I say that if any member has read It he tralian Assistance Plan. From that com- would not be very clear with regard to Whe pilot plan because the paper is purely an mittee the recommendations were passed enunciation of philosophy and does not on to Canberra. lay down any dlear guidelines at all. So It will be seen that it was not a direct method and it was not surprising that so I thought It might be of interest to those many of the submissions were lost on the members who have not been involved in way. We put many questions to the con- the pilot project to know something of the sultant who presented the scheme to us. way in which it has been implemented. We asked: Why cannot a local committee When the discussion paper was published be formed? Why cannot the shire be two members of the Community Welfare granted the $2 per head, and why the local Department Put together a submission committees, which were appointed, could which was put to the Australian Assistance not allocate the funds? No administration Plan Committee suggesting that the south- costs would have been involved and the west region might be a good area in which money would have been kept within thq to set up a pilot project. area concerned. However, that could not The area which they defined was vast: be done. It stretched from Mandurah to Pemberton, We also asked if there was not a danger to Albany, to Ravensthorpe, to Lake King, that the submission with the best advocate to Katanning, to Wagin, and back to would be the one to get the greatest Mandurah. The area has a Population of grant. The consultant agreed that there some 120 000 people. The scheme was could be some danger of that occurring but supposed to provide $2 per bead of popu- she hoped that fairness would prevail. We lation, and the money was to be made then asked if Canberra was the best place available to be spent In the region-or so to decide whether Dardanup should have a we were informed. new basketball court, or whether Yarloop One of the officers of the Community should have new toilets for its hall. We Welfare Department was co-opted by the asked if it would not be better for those Social Security Department to act as a things to be decided locally rather than consultant to the Pilot project. She is now in Canberra. The consultant seemed to a member of another place in this Parlia- believe that Canberra was the place to ment and I must say that she worked very make the decision. hard indeed to try to get across to people It was very difficult to ferret out how what she understood at that time to be much money It was planned to spend on the Plan. administration of the scheme. We were 1180 [ASSED'TBLY.]

not able to obtain an exact figure but, in He said that another criticism was fairness, the consultant said the whole that officials administering the plan plan was experimental, but she firmly be- had indicated that organisations which lieved that the amount of money she had had helped themselves would receive suggested should be put aside was far too favourable consideration... great. However, it turned out to be Cr Kitchen said he could not see $10 000 too little. why the committees should have to We also suggested that it would be better "crawl' to the Government for the to try to Involve all the voluntary workers distribution of taxpayers' money. in the already existing organlsations-with I have here many other newspaper cut- their complicated set-ups-throughout the tings which are in much the same tone. whole of the region. We asked: Could we Unfortunately, time does not permit me not take the source of manpower which is to read them out. already available and distribute the moneys through that source? However, that was RAILWAYS AND ELECTRICITY not to be allowed. It seemed that it was SUPPLIES intended to do away 'with local or volun- tany involvement. So the scheme went Electrical Workers: Grievance ahead. MR B. T. BURKE (Balga) [5.18 pi.m.]: My grievance relates to what appears to be So that members do not believe this is a very dangerous practice that has grown just my own grizzle, and that no weight up within the railways, and it impinges has been added to this grizzle, let nie out- upon the State Electricity Commission Act line what happened to the plan. and the regulations made under the Mlec- It must be remembered that we set tricity Act. On page 3 of the regulations out with $240 000 to be spent in the south- an electrical worker is defined, and among west region. It must also be remembered other things the definition says-- that we were carefully instructed as to "Electrical Worker" means any per- the areas in which we could obtain grants. son engaged on electrical work if such We find in The West Australian of the is connected to or is to be connected 3rd September an announcement that the to a pressure not exceeding 40-volts ... Western Australian regional council of the Under the special rational provisions in Australian Assistance Plan has been allo- the railway award, No. 38 on page 55 cated $22 000 for community welfare work classifies those workers in the signals and and $40 000 for administration expenses, telecommunications branch who are legi- That is a bit hot! The article goes on to say timately covered by the definition of exactly what I have already said- "Electrical Worker" in the Electricity Act. One southern region was entitled This classification was formerly assigned to about $240,000, at $2 a head as the to people who were electrical fiters. scheme proposed. Another $40 000 was Another interesting Point is that regu- set aside for administration. lation 29 of the Electricity Act regulations However, when the application for allows the State Electricity Commission to assistance was submitted, only $22 000 permit anyone to do any work provided was granted because few of the sug- the appropriate work Permit is ranted to gested Projects qualified under the th~e person making application. To my plan. mind, that is a provision which has been placed in the regulations to allow people The SPEAKER: The honourable mem- engaged for a specific function-which ber has two minutes more. might be a function that arises only once during any given period-to perform that Mrs CRAIG: Clearly, the criteria were function. However, my information is changed after the submissions were made. that tour employees of the WAGH, who In the South Western Times of the 22nd are properly classified, according to their August this article appears, under the award, as safe-working technicians, are heading "Disillusionment at Capel over actually unlicensed and, indeed, unqualified assistance plan"- to work on pressures exceeding 40 volts. Cr J. Kitchen who represents the The situation appears to me to be a very council on the committee told the last dangerous one and although I have not council meeting that applica' ions for been able to locate instances in the re- rants to foster junior spo' ting ac- cent past of dangerous situations resulting tivities in the district had br in turned from this practice. I am aware that in down... July, 1969, one of these unqualified safe- The Capel committee had been Torking technicians, while working on a optimistic when the Plan T US outlined ressure exceeding 30 volts, Installed a by officials initially and I ad acted in ectifier supplying a battery used essen- good faith by trying to I elp sporting tially for signalling at the Perth terminal. bodies. I understand this safe-working technician connected a phase wire to the earth, and But optimism had nov turned to dit funplorees narrowly missed being involved illusioinnent... tn a nasty accident. [Wednesday, 4 September, 1974) 118111

I speak in no way in criticism of the pay the balance of the overdraft which present Government, because I understand met the first advance of $1.20 to producers. this practice has continued for several After this $1.20 had been repaid, as the years and results really from the change in first requirement, the second advance was voltages with which these men normally to be paid to the growers. work. The change has been a natural Because the ships were not loaded and development within the WAGH. However, the bills of lading were not signed, this If this situation is persisting, and it is a money was not available to the Australian dangerous one, whichever Government is in Wheat Board. The industrial workers who power has the responsibility to investigate were on strike were tradesmen, electricians, the matter and put a stop to it. technicians, tug masters, pilots, and water- I also understand that of the four people side workers. Industrial trouble also who are at present working as safe-work- occurred with the New South Wales Grain ing technicians on pressures exceeding 30 Elevators Board, and the combination of volts, at least two have refused to sit for these troubles resulted in ships at New- examinations which would have enabled castle and Sydney not being loaded. them to obtain licenses to work on these pressures. The August payment to Western Aus- That, Mr Speaker, is my grievance. tralia would have amounted to $29 million, which of course is a tremendous amount of money which we all need at this particular MR O'CONNOR (Mt. Lawley-Minister time when credit is so restricted. Not only for Transport) [5.20 p.m.): I thank the did we not receive the money because of honourable member for bringing this mat- the industrial action but added penalties ter to notice. As far as I know, it has not were also incurred. I remind members been brought to my notice by members of that $1.5 million was lost by what we call unions or anyone else. However, I will despatch. which means that had the ships confer with the Commissioner for Railways been loaded in time when they came Into and if the problem does exist we will port this money would have been paid as discuss ways of overcoming It. a bonus. But worse still, a sumn of $500 000 was incurred for demurrage. So WHEAT MARKETING we incurred a debt of $2 million, which can Deferred Payments: Grievance only be paid by the wheat producer him- self. MR CRANE (Moore) [5.21 p.m.]: The grievance I wish to bring to the notice of Because we were not able to pay our first members of the House and the public con- advance loan on time, we have incurred an cerns the financial hardship which is being additional 2k per cent interest with the felt throughout Australia but which par- Reserve Bank, because an interest penalty ticularly concerns all sections of the com- was brought in recently. Lost sales of this munity in Western Australia. The hard- wheat when prices were high mean an- ship is being brought about because of the other loss of money to us because some of irresponsible action of People who hold our orders were lost. If wheat is not sold responsible positions. I refer to the defer- by the end of December it becomes old ment of the wheat Payments for the 1973- season's wheat and therefore does not 74 harvest, one of which was to be made commnand as high a price. So here again in August of this Year and the other one we have incurred another penalty. in October-November. The deferment of The carryover this year was expected to these Payments has brought a considerable be low-in fact, only 500 000 tonnes. We amount of hardship not only to the wheat now find the carryover is expected to be Producers themselves but also to every per- 1.7 million tonnes. This will Incur extra son in the community, because that money expense for storage of the grain and the would have flowed freely to everyone in the additional fumigation for weevil control State. which will be necessary. Quite early this year announcements One bright light on the horizon, perhaps, were made that 20c a bushel would be Paid is that we were told on the news this In August and another 25c a bushel towards morning there was a record shipment of the end of October or early November. wheat from Western Australia. This is making a total of 45c a bushel. As West- very good news and it might in some way ern Australian wheat producers last year enable a second advance to be paid earlier; delivered a record harvest of 148 million but I doubt very much that it will be paid. bushels, the total amount of money in- We are now told we will receive Ic a volved was $66.6 million. Frmers were bushel in October, instead of the 45e we encouraged by their bank managers to were to receive. That will be worth $10.3 budget for this money, and they did so. million, so it can be seen Western Aus- The reason the payments were not made, tralia will lose $56.3 million on the whole and the reason for my grievance, is that deal in the latter half of this year. The there was industrial unrest in the Eastern lack of flow-on of this money through the States which caused delay in the loading normal trade and commerce channels will of the vessels which were to ship the be disastrous, and at a time such as this wheat to other countries. The wheat had when the credit squeeze is of concern to already been sold, and that money was us all, this industrial action is more dis- needed by the Australian Wheat Board to tasteful. It is not only the rural areas 1182 1182ASSEMBLY.] which are suffering but, as I said earlier. were in Opposition. We made inquiries this money would flow through to every- far and wide in an endeavour to ascertain one. The man in the street would have just how effective the scheme would be received his proportion of the money. and, as was predicted by many of the people in local government, the results In the rural areas businesses are being have proved to be very misleading and far very hard pressed because of the lack of sbort of what was put forward by the finance. I know of the case of one mach- advocates of the scheme. inery agent who, because of the announce- ment of the wheat Payment, has let out I think many people approached this on credit $85 000-worth of machinery, 25 scheme with souls full of hope that some per cent of which was to be recovered in money would be available to local com- August, another 25 per cent in late Novem- munities--money which previously was ber, and the balance after harvest. He has denied to them and they could not raise received only $2 500, and he is Placed In a through normal local government revenue very serious position. or voluntary contribution. However, as flanks are not sympathetic. It is not the member for Wellington explained, the possible to get carry-on finance even for results that have now been disclosed have food in some instances. This matter has proved to be-to say the least, and to put been brought to my attention as I have it Inte most generous way-a damp moved through my electorate. squib. Mr T. D). Evans: It is better than noth- The SPEAKER: The honourable mem- ing. They did not get anything like that ber has two minutes more. from former Liberal Governments. Mr CRANE: Farmers cannot now, be- Cause of lack of finance, take advantage of Sir CHARLES COURT: I hope the mem- the superphosphate subsidy of $12, which ber for Kalgoorlie is not proud of this. will expire on the 31st December; so here We are talking about an expenditure of is another loss to them. They feel desper- $40 000 for administration, and only about ate: they have nowhere to turn; and it is $22 000 for approved works. Any Govern- very disappointing that the People who ment which, or any supporter of a Gov- provide a great deal of our export earn- ernment who, is proud of that would be ings and our food are being hit in such a proud of anything. vicious manner. Mr T. fl. Evans: It is better than noth- I conclude by saying it is indeed a ing at all. mongrel dog that will bite the hand that Sir CHARLES COURT: I want to convey feeds it. to the honourable member that the State Government is very concerned about this; AUSTRALIAN ASSISTANCE PLAN and I also want to say to the House that other State Governments are equally con- Implementation in South-West: cerned, and practically all local authorities Grievance in Australia are even more concerned, be- THE SPEAKER: Order! Before pro- cause they can see this as a definite ceeding with grievances, I understand the attempt by Canberra to bypass local gov- Premier wishes to reply to the grievance of ermnent. I would like to assure the mem- the member for Wellington. I think it is ber for Wellington that the matter is desirable that the reply be given Immedi- under consideration and that we intend ately after the grievance, but that is not to make representations to see if we can- essential. Therefore, if the Premier wish- not get something better put into opera- es to reply, he may do so. dion: something less costly so far as the taxpayers' money is concerned, and some- SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedlands-- thing which will produce better practical Premier) (5.30 P.M.J: Thank you, Mr results. I see the member for Victoria Speaker: You called on the next speaker Park Is carrying on; his record will not rather more quickly than I anticipated, turn Off. and I missed out. Mr Davies: Western Australians are the I want to cozmment only very briefly, ones who are harmed by Your attitude. and in the interests of expedition I will Sir CHARLES COURT: They are comment on both the speeches; that is, harmed by the attitude of the project. that made by the member for Wellington We are talking in terms of $40 000 being and the one made by the member for spent on administration, and only $22 000 Moore. being wpent on projects: and there is not So far as the Australian Assistance Plan very much more to come. People are Is concerned, the State Government is completely disillusioned; they have not most concerned about the developments the faintest Idea of what the schemes which have taken place. We were most are intended to do. The member for Vic- concerned when the Plan was originally toria Park can continue to try to defend announced, because we found it extremely his brethren In Canberra for as long as he difficult to ascertain exactly what was in- likes, but that does not alter the fact that tended. When I say "we" I am referring this is a complete and utter flzzog. to the time when the scheme was an- Mr T. D. Evans: The administration nounced and we on this side of the House cost is a once-only cost. [Wednesday. 4 September. 19741 118318

Sir CHARLES COURT: The member for Mr J. T. Tonkin: Did he speak? Kalgoorlie is making a gallant attempt, out of sheer loyalty, to defend his com- Mr JAMIESON: Mr Speaker: where did rades in Canberra. However, the simple you get him from? fact is that this plan is indefensible, and as soon as the Commonwealth Govern- MY grievance concerns the matter of ment is Prepared to get back to a scheme massage parlours and the Inquiries which under which local people have a chance were Promised by certain members of the to obtain access to money and to take Government when on the hustings. The full advantage of It-and with minimal Minister for Works uttered some well administration costs-- the better it will be. chosen words saying that as soon as the election was over we would have an Inquiry May I refer briefly to the comments Into this matter. We have had God knows of the member for Moore. The an- how many questions In respect of this, dis- nouncement of the deferment of this closures have been made by Inspector payment came as a great shock to Daniels, and all sorts of statements have everybody. The delay in the payment been made. The answers we have received was In itself a great shock. I know to our questions could best be described as the Deputy Premier was most concerned, being not straightforward; It appears the and has himself taken a6 very vigorous Government Is trying to cover up. Interest in trying to obtain some redress. The situation is that the reasons for the Only the week before last the Premier. delay are even worse than the fact that in reply to a question I asked him in re- there is a delay. I think most members spect of this matter, said- are shocked at the fact that farmers can- (1) and (2) Since the change of Gov- not obtain access to this money at a time ernment on 30th March, we have when they badly need it, and serious in- had the opportunity of examining dustrial trouble has caused this. the matter much more closely, and have been in receipt of police re- If it were only a question of the money ports relative to the activities of being held up, that would be bad enough massage parlours and the like, during the present time of the credit which have led us to believe that squeeze and dear money, and when farm- the surveillance by the police of ers must borrow to pay for machinery these places Is adequate In all the instalments and other capital needs. But circumstances, and the need to set the worst feature is the consequential costs up such a committee at the pre- which flow from the situation. As the sent time is not as urgent as it member for Moore effectively explained, appeared to be when the state- once the ships are held up certain demur- ment was made. rage and other charges and Penalties are incurred, and orders which were hard won It is all very well for him to make state- are lost. There is a deterioration in quality ments like that in order to endeavour to In practical terms, so far as rain selling avoid his responsibility to do something techniques are concerned, as a result of the concrete. delay. This is written into the contracts; it applies automatically when the seasonal I suggest that everybody In the com- time schedule cannot be adhered to. munity who Is at all alive is aware that fleshpots exist in and around Perth, and What Is worse, the whole country suffers that people indulge In the use of these due to the loss of our reputation. It is places. That does not concern me so much; well known that if we do not get the what I am concerned about Is the fact grain to the market on time we rum the that genuine masseurs in our community risk of it deteriorating or becoming con- are now finding it difficult to operate be- taminated. If as the result of delays the cause some people expect them to provide grain deteriorates or becomes contami- services other than massages in their natal, then our reputation suffers. Parlours; and they find themselves In an awkward situation. I want to assure the member for Moore that the Government is making strong I know of a recent instance where a representation in conjunction with pro- woman attended a Physiotherapist, and he ducer organisations in this matter. suggested she should receive regular mas- sage. Her hair nearly stood on end when he suggested that. He saw the look on her MASSAGE PARLOITIIS face and said, "I will see that you go to a recognised practitioner who will do this Investigation: Grievance massage for you." MR JAMIESON (Welshpool-Deputy It is not good enough that the Govern- Leader of the Opposition) [5.36 pim.]: MY mient should tolerate this situation. A grievance is directed against the attitude great deal has been written about it In the of the Government towards massage par- Press. We have had Inspector Daniels lours. making many statements, and many ques- Mr Nanovich: You need oiling; you are tions have been asked In the House. I getting rusty. think the last question asked in this place 1184 1184ASSEMBLY.)

in regard to Prostitution was a question Mr JAMIESON: I am not suggesting without notice directed to the Minister for that person was visiting a massage parlour Police by the member for Collie only last f or the benefit of his electors when the Thursday. He asked- police intervened; I would find it difficult in view of the statement made by the to stretch my imagination that far. The Commissioner of Police In today's fact that this incident could be uncovered edition of The Wes9t Australian news- might be an embarrasisment to the Govern- paper on Prostitution in Western Aus- ment; but I think it Is high time it was tralia., will he table the report in order brought out in the open and the news- that Parliament can be fully informed papers were able to gain access to all the on the question? facts. it Is high time members of Parlia- ment were able to put forward whatever However, the Minister replied that he facts they desire to put forward to a Select would not table tbe report, but that if the Committee or commission of inquiry estab- member wished to see the documents they lished by the Government. This matter would be made available to him in the should not be swept under the carpet, Minister's office. Of course, this is Just a cover-up, I am broad-minded enough to recognise that there are prostitutes and People run- I have heard suggestions around the cor- ning such institutions around Perth, I ridors and In other market places that the have no objection to that if madams are matter is being covered up because mem- running these places, because It is a Poor bers on both sides of the House are in- Job that cannot afford a couple of foremen. volved in or associated with this situation. But If men are living off the proceeds of We even saw a large heading in a week- Prostitution that Is a different proposition, end newspaper which said "Madam in the and it introducies many Problems into the House". I do not know what was the community. purpose of that heading. The member for The fact that members of Parliament Balga asked questions In this place, and it are being tied up with these activities Is was suggested that some pressure was ap- not good for the Parliament of Western plied to Liberal members of Parliament. Australia; and the suggestion all along the Mr Orayden: What do you mean "Liberal line that a massive cover-up is going on is members of Parliament"? Were not Labor something which should be cleared up. I members Interviewed? do not want any cover-up on my behalf. If I am at fault in any of my actions Mr JAMIESON: That was the question then, as a person in public life. I must take asked on this occasion, and it was sug- what Is coming to me. Everybody else In gested two members were involved. this Parliament should be in the same Mr Orayden: Wasn't the Leader of the position. Opposition interviewed? If people are being procured for parties, and documents are coming into the hands Mr J. T. Tonkin: No. he was not. of the Premier-as they have on various Mr Grayden: I thought you were. occasions-and it seems as though the allegations are factual, then I think the Mr JAMIESON: I understand the mem- matter should be investigated. bers involved were the member for Subiaco and the Hon. R. J. L. Williams. I do not The SPEAKER: You have two minutes know what was discussed at the Interview; more. that Is their business. I do not know why Mr JAMIESON: I suggest it is hiazh the matter should have been taken up in time We Stopped running away from the the newspaper on the basis that it was facts associated with this matter and taken up. However, people are suggesting came out into the open by holding an In- that something smells with regard to memn- quiry into the situation. It is time recoin- bers of Parliament. Members on the Goy- mend ations were made to the Government ermnent side are going around saying so that those who are genuinely in the quite clearly to members on this side, "You business of massage may be protected. ought to ease up because some of your fel- They are being tied up, or involved in lows could be involved." I do not know a very seamy manner, with those who are whether they could be involved or whether conducting sexual massage parlours and they are involved: but they are oil over 21 the like. This has been obvious in the and they must look after themselves. They community. Also, even according to the are in public life, and If they have become statistics made available by the Police De- involved in these seamy activities, then partment, these establishments have been they should have known better and they increasing in number. It is of no use say- will have to look after themselves. Ing that such places do not exist; they do What I do know is that one member of exist. Something should be done about the present Ministry was involved in 1973, the matter and if Ministers and also mem- and reference to the appropriate polle bers on this side of the House are involved report by the they will have to face up to whatever may Premier would soon uncover be coming to them. In saying that I would that, Point out that all of us have to face Up to Mr O'Connor: Come on, name him, these responsibilities. (Wednesday, 4 September. 1974)

MR O'CONNOR (Mt. Lawley-Minister titute was one of those who camne to Par- for Police) [5.46 p.m.]: Judging from the liament House and interviewed members, way the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and that I was one of those members, has spoken one would think that this prob- The SPEAKER: When did he make this lem is something new in the community. However, quite frankly, I1 it exists now It interjection? also existed when the Deputy Leader of the Mr J. T. TONIN: Just a minute ago. Opposition was a member of the previous Government, and, indeed, existed even The SPEAKER: I beard him say this prior to that. The Deputy Leader of the some time ago. opposition indicated that there was some- Mr J. T. TONKIN: He interjected a thing sinister in connection with this mat- couple of minutes ago. ter, but he knows full well that the police Mr O'Connor: I hope, Mr Speaker, that have taken action wherever possible in re- this time will not be taken off the time I gard to prostitution in this State. am allowed to make my speech. Mr Bertram: How would he know that? Mr J. T. TONKIN: I give an emphatic Mr O'CONNOR: H-ow would the hon- denial to that statement and I ask for a ourable member know? withdrawal. Mr Bertram: I don't. The SPEAKER: Did the Minister for Mr O'CONNOR: A person could say, Labour and Industry make this remark? "What about Kalgoorlie? Prostitution has I am afraid I did not hear It. However, been conducted there for an even longer the Minister has been asked to withdraw period." All members know that prosti- the remark. tution is practised in the community. I Mr GRAYDEN: I am sick and tired of think that some degree of tolerance has all these innuendos. I certainly said that been shown in regard to this matter. there were two Liberal members and two although the police have, wherever poss- members of the Labor Party- ible, conducted prosecutions. Every Gov- ernment faces some problems in regard to The SPEAKER: Orderl The Minister the matter, because if a Goverrnent is not permitted to make any speeches on clamped down hard on prostitution it this matter. could be open to the accusation that it was Mr ORAYDEN: What amn I supposed responsible for a girl having been raped to withdraw? while walking down the street., How- ever, as I have stated, the Deputy Leader The SPEAKER: According to the of the Opposition indicated there was a Leader of the Opposition, you have been sinister side to this question. asked to withdraw the statement you made that this person approached the Leader I have contacted all members of Parlia- of the Opposition. ment who may have been Involved in this matter in any way. I found that two Mr GRAYDEN: I understand this is the members of the Liberal Party and truth; this is what I have been told. This two members of the Labor Party were in-v is so. I ask the Leader of the opposition: volved, but I do not Intend to name any of Was he approached In the House or out them unless the House directs me to do of the House?2 so, because the matter is of such a minor The SPEAKER: I would like to hear nature that I do not think I should. the Leader of the Opposition again. Mr Davies: How are they involved? Mr J. T. TONKIN : The Interjection Mr O'CONNOR: If the honourable made by the Minister for Labour and In- member keeps quiet, he will find out. dustry is offensive to me- Mr Grayden: The Leader of the Mr Grayden: it Is true. Opposition was one of the four involved. Mr J. T. TONKIN: -because there is The SPEAKER:. Order! The Minister no basis for It. I have never been inter- for Police is on his feet. viewed here by any person of the type Mr J. T. Tonkin: What is the Minister referred to. for Labour and industry talking about? Mr Grayden: Was It outside the House. Mr O'CONNOR: The point is-- then? Mr J. T. TONKIN: I ask that the im- Point of Order putation against me be withdrawn. Mr J. T. TONKIN': Mr Speaker, I under- The SPEAKER: The Leader of the Oppo- stand that the Minister for Labour and sition finds the Interjections of the Minis- Industry made an interjection- ter offensive to him, and therefore, accord- ing to precedent, I ask the Minister to The SPEAKER: Does the Leader of the withdraw the remark. Opposition wish to raise a point of order? Mr GRAYDEN: If I have said that the Mr J. T. TONKIN: Yes. I ask for a Leader of the Opposition was interviewed withdrawal of the remark. I understand In the House I certainly withdraw the re- that the remark the Minister made was mark, but obviously he was interviewed that a person who Is supposed to be a pros- outside the Rouse. 1186 1186ASSEMBLY.]

Mr J. T. TONflN: I ask that that state- Prostitute, could not be prosecuted because ment be withdrawn. it is offensive to me, the house she was occupying could not be because there Us no basis for It. regarded as being a brothel. Mr OR.AYDEN: I withdraw the state- Mr Jamieson: What has this to do with ment, even though it occurred. massage parlours? Mr Davies: Why is the Minister so war- Mr O'CONNOR: It has something to do dted? with the whole problem and the honour- The SPEAER: Order! able member will aree that this is so. in regard to such cases the police are try- Grievance Resumed ing to find ways and means whereby legis- lation can be drafted and introduced to Mr O'CONNOR: If I can. I will explain. because I think this needs some brief solve the problem. clarification. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition raised the question of massage parlours. Several members Interjected: Hear, hear! On this Issue, also, steps are being taken Mr O'CONNOR: If Opposition members to endeavour to introduce legislation but will give me an opportunity I will explain. this is extremely difficult. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition himself could Mr Skidmnore: I have not said a word introduce legislation of this nature if be yet. so desired. Mr O'CONNOR: The situation Is much Mr Jamieson: I did not make any state- better when the honourabie member does not. I was saying that two members from ments and therefore I do not have to take each side of the House were Involved and any action following on what I said. in such a minor way that It was ridiculous Mr O'CONNOR: This shows how in- for the Press to publish an article on the active and how insincere the Deputy matter in the way It did. I have con- Leader of the Opposition Is, because he ferred with three of the four members in- could bring forward the type of legislation volved in regard to this matter which arose in regard to which we have been conduct- as a result of a Press article with promi- ing investigations. nent headlines to the effect that a Person known as Dorrie Platman had been Inter- Mr Jamieson: You have a responsibility viewed by members of Parliament in as a Minister; do not scurry from under. Parliament House. Pram the Information You stand up to your responsibilities! I gained I ascertained that a particular Mr O'CONNOR: I will, but the Deputy member was requested by one of his elec- Leader of the Opposition is squirming in tors to see a person and that person presented herself, and she happened to be his seat. Dorrie Platman. The SPEAKER: Order! There is nothing wrong in a member Mr Bertram: You would not support any seeing such a person. However, two measure introduced by us. Labor members saw her In regard to the same matter and they had a discussion Sir Charles Court: We would be grate- with her in the course of their duties. ful If the member for Morley would give There is nothing to indicate that these the Speaker the information he was asked members were doing anything wrong. for, following his question. Mr J. T. TIonkin: The Minister says Mr O'CONNOR: This issue has been that they were Labor members and I ask highlighted for the purposes of publicity him: Was I one of them, because he ii only. free to say so? Sir Charles Court: We would have had Mr O'CONNOR: I do not believe I that parliamentary privileges matter dealt should name any member. I1 am free to with and could have cleaned the matter say whether the Leader of the Opposition up in a week by obtaining public informna- was one of them, but the Leader of the tion. Opposition himself could say whether or Mr O'CONNOR: From our point of view not he was one of those members. we have been looking at the matter and, Mr J. T. Tonkin: I say I was not. following the receipt of reports, we have been considering the possibility of bring- Mr O'CONNOR: If the Leader of the ing down legislation to ban massage par- Opposition says he did not see this par- lours. However, this is not as simple as ticular person in his office we have to ac- one would think. cept that as being correct. The Commissioner of Police submitted The position has been closely followed a very lengthy report in connection with in many ways by the police and, wherever prostitution generally and it was accepted. possible, convictions have been brought When it is realised that this year some against such people. However, It must be 80-odd convictions were recorded ft shows realised that recently a magistrate ruled that the police are being active in this that a woman, working on her own as a regard. [Wednesday. 4 September, 1974] 1187

Mr Jamieson: It either shows that, or CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION it shows that there are more. BILL Third Reading Mr O'CONNOR: It shows that the polle are a little more vigilant under our con- MR O'NEIL (East Melvllle-Mlnlster trol in obtaining convictions against these for Works) [6.01 pm.: I move- people, but the Deputy Leader of the Op- That the Bill be now read a third position is implying that there is still a time. large number who have not been prose- Question put. cuted. The SPEARER: To be carried, this Mr T. H. Jones: You will not even table motion requires an absolute majority. I the report. If you have nothing to hide, have counted the House; and, there being why not table the report? no dissentient voice, I declare the ques- tion carried. Mr O'CONNOR: If there was anyone Question thus passed. who would not table a report it was the Bill read a third time and transmitted to Government to which the member for Collie belonged. What about the issue the Council. concerning the TAB at Dampier? The honourable member's Premier at that time EDUCATION POLICIES would not table the document and I know Condemnation of Government: Motion the reason that he would not. Therefore MR T. D. EVANS (Kalgoorlie) [6.02 it is of no use the member for Collie com- P.m.]: I move- plaining that we will not table the report That in the opinion of this House, on this situation. That is so much eye- the Government should be condemned wash. I wonder what the honourable for having enunciated certain educa- member is trying to achieve? tion Policies at the hustings and now Mr T. H. Jones: It Is a hot potato. some six months later is:- 1. Unable to provide any signi- Mr O'CONNOR: We have not shelved ficant rationale or meaning- the matter, but it has been indicated to ful detail by way of answers me that the issue is not as great as was to Parliamentary questions as originally thought. The Commissioner of to the implementation of Police has submitted a very voluminous these policies, that is, in re- report on the matter, and so far as we are lation to:- concerned we have been looking at the possibility of introducing legislation to (a) lowering the admission control massage parlours. but it is not an age of children into the easy problem to solve. primary school; (b) transferring children The SPEAKER: Grievances have been from the Primary to noted. the secondary school at the end of the Year in BILLS (4): RETURNED which children attain the age of eleven years; 1. Weights and Measures Act Amend- (c) limiting student num- ment Bill. bers at high schools to 2. Hire-Purchase Act Amendment Bill. 1 000 and at senior high schools to 400; 3. Wheat Marketing Act Amendment 2. Endeavouring to reconcile and Continuance Bill. Patent conflict between cer- tain key essentials in policy 4. Plant Diseases Act Amendment Bill. of the two coalition Parties Bills returned from the Council with- constituting the Government; out amendment. 3. Unable or unwilling to state dlearly and fully the criteria JUNIOR FARMERS' MOVEMENT ACT upon which it is expected to AMENDMENT BILL proceed with these Policies without first having demon- Receipt and First Reading strated the educational merits Bil received from the Council; and, on of the changes inherent there- motion by Mr Mensaros (Minister for in and having failed, when Industrial Development), read a first time. asked to name those profes- sional educationists. whom MAIN ROADS ACT AMENDMENT were or should have been con- BILL sulted before enunciation of these policies; Introduction and First Reading 4. Refusing to indicate the ex- Bill introduced, on motion by Mr pected costing of implementa- O'Connor (Minister for Transport), and tion of each and all of these read a first time. Policies. 1188 18[ABSMLY.J

I Intend to embrace the principle that downwards present school services by he who asserts a proposition should be taking full responsibility for the edu- required to prove it conclusivf.ly. I regret cation of children in their fifth year the Premier is not here as I propose to by providing- indicate that in adopting this principle I am following a road that more often Here comes the vital difference. than, not the Premier ignores. -a compulsory transition year for these children within the present As a basis for the case I intend to pre- school structure. As an interim incas- sent I wish to preface my remarks by tire the Government subsidy should indicating that the biie of this motion de- be aimed at making available at the pends largely upon recourse to parlia- earliest possible date free- mentary questions and answers and to certain educational authorities. So. with I emphasise the word "free". To continue- your indulgence, Mr Speaker, I Intend to -pc-school education for all child- make frequent but brief quotations from ren (whose parents desire It) in their the documents concerned to illustrate the fth year... Points raised in the motion. Let us be quite fair about this. In con- The first aspect I wish to stress is a nection with the entry of the five-year- part of the Government's policy concern- old into the primary school, as announced ig the entry of the five-year-old Into the on the hustings-I emphasise the words primary school scheme, and to establish a "on the hustings-it was clearly not in- basis for the examination of this part of tended that existing school rooms in prim- the policy I quote from the offcial Liberal ary schools would be used to provide a Party policy enunciated by the Premier on form of kindergarten teaching or pre- the hustings. He said- school education. The electors were in- vited to believe, and it is reasonable to The age of admission to schools be assume that many did believe- lowered to the year in which the child turns five. Mr J. T Tonkin: And still do. It is Interesting to study the correspond- Mr T. D. EVANS: -that flve-year-olds ig part of the policy enunciated by the would be admitted into the primary school then National Alliance, but I will come for primary school education and not for to that a little later. a form of pre-school education which had The Minister for Education is reported previously been the custom. as having said that this part of the policy Mr Clarko: They did not read our policy Is in fact endorsed by the recommenda- then. Do you believe In compulsory educa- tions of the Nott report. I will endeavour tion for a child in its fifth year? to demonstrate that whilst the Nott report Mr T. D. EVANS: I will come to the does recommend the ultimate entry of the member for Karrlnyup. Instead of hiding five-year-old into the education system, as his light behind a bushel, he should en- far as I can understand the Government's deavour to hide himself behind the Policy, and as far as others outside the cur- Government circles are able to compre- tains. hend it, it is not In keeping with the Nott Mr Clarko: It would be easier for you report at all. Dealing with early childhood to hide than for me. Do you or do you education, Magistrate Nott says on page not believe It should be compulsory? 15- Mr T. D. EVANS: The member for Kax- Perhaps from a long range point of rinytip appears to have broken down. Per- view a case could be made for the haps someone will ring a wrecker and have inclusion of early childhood education him towed away!I within the framework of the Educa- tion Department. Without further I will come to the point. Having de- evidence and research, I would not be monstrated that the assertion of the prepared at this Minister-that Is, that the Policy of the stage to endorse this Government relating to the five-year-old suggestion. Is endorsed by the Nott report-is, in fact, Let us now turn to the recommendations not correct, as the recommendations Pro- made by Magistrate Nott with regard to vided In the Nott report prove- the five-year-old. On page 43 he states Mr Clarko: Are you against it? that the Present formula for subsidising the association should be replaced by a Mr T. D). EVANS: -I now make the formula which would provide two things. point that- He distinctly contemplates the retention of Mr Clarko: What are you for? an Organisation known as the Kinder- Mr T. D. EVANS: -the general public garten Association or its successor, the and members of Parliament in particular Pre-School Education Hoard, because he have been denied the answers to questions refers to a formula for the subsidy of the asked In this Parliament, both here and management body. Paragraph (b) of his in another place. Those questions were recommendation reads- directed towards seeking information as For the Government (through the to how the Government's policy was to be Education Department) to extend Implemented. One question which springs [Wednesday, 4 September. 1974) 1189 readily to mind is, "What type of educa- policy on the hustings, had failed to tion is to be imparted in primary schools demonstrate what the position actually to five-year-aids?" Another Is, "Is it to be was: indeed all evidence suggests that the a form of Pre-school education or a normal party and Probably the committee advis- primary school education?" ing the Party were not sufficiently assured of the educational merits of the proposi- Mr Clarko: It was explicitly stated In before it was enunciated. the education policy. tion the Mr T. D2. EVANS: The member for I had referred to a question asked by Warren asked- member for Warren which related to the selection of Pilot schools for the justifica- (1) (a) Has the Nre-School Education tion of this policy in a limited way. The Board selected pilot schools answer given by the Minister representing for the acceptance of children the Minister for Education was given some In their fifth year; five months after the enunciation of the (b) If so, will he enumerate policy, so the Government had not them? determined then whether there would be This question was directed to the Minister pilot schools. The Minister went on to say in this Chamber representing the Minister that the Minister for Education had ap- who sits in another place. The next por- pointed an expert committee to advise on tion of the question reads- the implementation of this scheme and he added that the recommendations of the (2) (a) What Is the basis of selection committee were not yet available for the of these pilot schools: Minister's decision. (b,) Will the selection of pilot schools be carrded out by the Mr Sibson: That has been determined. Ne-School Education Board. Mr T. D. EVANS: I will now pass to the Education Department, or another section which will clearly continue the Minister for Education? the theme on which I commenced. The I1 do not Intend to read all the question. member for Morley asked 13 questions of The Minister's answer is as follows- the Minister relating to this part of the (1) (a) No. policy. I will not relate them all but I would like to show that the questions are At that time no schools had been selected pertinent; that they are questions on despite the fact that five months had which members of this Parliament and elapsed since the policy had been an- members of the public-some five months nounced. The answer to (1) (b) Was, "Not after the policy was enunciated-have good applicable". This was because the Gov- reasons to expect clear and decisive ernment had not made up its mind. The answers given them. answer to (2) (a) is as follows- The Minister for Education has ap- I would like to quote one question which pointed an expert committee to advise reads as follows- on the implementation of the scheme. (1) What steps have been taken to Surely this is a revelation. Policies were Implement the attendance at announced some five months previously. primary school of four and five- This question was asked and answered In year old children and when will a sort of a way and then we were told that the scheme commence? the Minister had established a committee (2) Will such children be admitted to advise him on the implementation of during each term or on a half- the policy. yearly basis? Mr Shalders: You would have been bet- There were 11 other questions to which ter to do that on the free textbook scheme. the Minister for Industrial Development, Mr T. D. EVANS: Obviously at the time on behalf of the Minister for Education, of the enunciation of the policy, no evi- replied as follows- dence existed as to the educational merit (1) to (13) inherent therein, because the Minister ad- mitted this. Then he set up a committee I ask members to note how the issue was some five months later. evaded; the questions were all grouped together and a composite answer was Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m. given. The answer states- Mr T. D2. EVANS: I attempted to demon- The Minister for Education has strate, and I believe I succeeded in doing appointed an expert committee to so, that the alleged claim by the Minister advise on the implementation of the for Education to this part of the Govern- policy on a phased basis. ment's education policy-and I referred to the entry of the five-year-alds to Primary It is little wonder when answers such as schools-was on all fours with the recom- this are given to questions which greatly mendation in the Knott report. I then concern the Public-and I speak from began to develop the theme that the Lib- personal experience- eral Party section of the coalition Govern- Mr Young: You would, because you ment, having announced this Part of its used to give the same sort of answers. 1190 190[ASSEMABLY.]

Mr T. D). EVANS: -and when Pre- Mrs Brenton Coward. B.A., flip. Soc. school education is a very sensitive area Wk. (Uni of WA.) Social Worker: as It concerns parental control and the "Deprivation". children involved, that members should Mrs Julia Solomon. B.A. Dip. App. receive letters such as I have received- Psych., M.Ed., T.C. (N.S.WA), flIP. one of which was from the Thornhle K.T.C., M.A.Ps.S., M.A.C.E. Pre- Kindergarten (Inc.) dated the 13th Aug- school Adviser: "Development of 4-5 ust. more than five months after the enunciation of the policy and which reads year Olds". as follows-- Mr Di. B. Wignall, B.Ed., M.A.C.E. Headmaster: "Are the 4+ ready for At the last delegates meeting on 15th July, it was stated that It would be School?" the parents of 5 year Olds who would Mr J. Hill, M.A., B.Ed., Gidance choose whether they wished their Officer: "Intelligence, Attainment children to start school at the age of and Date of Birth". 5. However, if this is the case, and the pre-school board centres are cater- I was not able to attend the meeting in Ing for 3-4 year Olds, then this leaves question but I was told on very good no other alternative for the 5 year authority by those who did attend that the Olds? In other words, Parents who do main concern and the obvious intention of not want their children to attend those who attended was to obtain some school until they are six will have no clarification of what the Government had Other choice but to keep their 5 Year in mind and to know whether this Policy Olds at home. It will only be in areas would get off the ground. where there are very few 5 year Olds, Mr Sibson: Who was the headmaster? that they will be able to continue at the Kindergartens. Mr T. D. EVANS: I have here a letter The letter continues in that vein indicating I received from one of the delegates who the concern of the persons one would attended the statutory meeting under the normally expect to be associated with and Pre-School Education Act. If I am called vitally interested in this most sensitive part upon to lay the letter on the Table of the of the educational spectrum. House I will do so, but I will make the point now, because the person concerned Mr Clarko: What do you think about- wishes to remain anonymous for the time being. I would point out that I have re- Mr T. Di. EVANS: A little before the tea moved his name and address from the suspension I tried to act as a modern-day letter, so I do not want to be told later good samaritan but I fear my efforts went that I did this after reading the letter and unheeded. It appears as though the mem- before tabling it. The letter is very Mlum- ber for Karrinyup has broken down and I inating; Indeed it is about the only thing!I suggest that someone rings the wreckers find Illuminating In the whole matter. to have him towed away! The letter reads-- Mr Young: You are the only one in this I will outline the developments to Chamber who is not prepared to answer date and then some areas of question. interjections. I will assume that you can obtain a Several members interjected. copy of the Liberal Party document. The SPEAKER: Order! There are too I assume he refers to the Liberal Party many members Interjecting. policy speech, a copy of which I have. To Mr May: Don't you talk; You are the continue- best sitter-down I have seen. since this policy was announced vari- ous groups of parents have met and The SPEAKER: Order! expressed grave concern about the Mr T. D. EVANS: If I might interject implementation of the policy. I have now, Mr Speaker, I would Point out that a attended the following meetings- few weeks ago arpublic meeting was called on a Sunday at the East Fremantle Town 28th April: Pre-School Board Dele- Hall and the speakers who were invited gates Meeting. were eager to attend this meeting. I will 3rd May: Delegation (from above) refer to the names of the speakers and the to Mr MacKinnon. topics on which they were listed to address the gathering, which again indicates the 7th May: Parents meeting Holly- concern of the People at the Government's wood High School. reluctance to make public what It had in 25th June: Parents meeting Carine mind. I will emulate the example of the High School. Premier and quote not only the names but the qualifications of the speakers who were 15th July: Pre-School Board Dele- to address the gathering. They are aLs fol- gates Meeting (Mr MacKinnon in lows-- attendance). Dr Di. L. Gurry, M.B.B.S., M.R.CP., At this last meeting Mr MacKinnon M.R.A.C.P., F.A.A.P., Pediatrician: made the following points in reply to "Child at Risk"- questions. [Wednesday, 4 September. 1974) 119119

(1) He would expect the commit- Association are to be followed at the pre- tee- school centres. This is Indicated in the I assume the reference Is to the expert Minister's own words-and I have not committee he formed- heard them disputed-and he mentioned It also In a letter he wrote to the Editor of -to make recommendations The West Australian to which I will refer along the following lines- later. If the new scheme is to be so (a) The Informal year should closely allied to and based upon the kinder- be similar to a kinder- garten system in regard to hours, stand- garten year- ards, equipment, programme, staffng, etc., This Is the point on which I commenced. why the change? I pointed out that when the policy was Mr Young: Did anyone say it was to be announced It was reasonable to assume-- kindergarten and I feel that many people did believe- exactly the same as the that the pollcy as enunciated would be system? Implemented. I will read It again- Mr T. D. EVANS: The policy reads as We will lower the admission age to follows- the Primary school for the five-year- The age of admission to schools be old to the year in which the child turns lowered to the year in which the child five. turns five and that admission to school This Is given under the heading relating be either on a term or ball-yearly to primary schools, and the people be- basis. lieved that the children concerned were This appears under the heading, "Primary going into the primary schools and were Education'. not there to receive a kindergarten-type education. The minister further advised Mr Young: Haven't you any inagina- the committee to recommend- tion at all? (W' That the buildings should Mr T. D. EVANS: The Liberal Party be similar to kindergarten misled the people. buildings. Mr Young: You are misleading the What about the existing primary schools? people. They are not the same. To continue- Mr T. D. EVANS: The primary school (c) That teachers should be scheme- similarly trained to kin- dergarten Mr Young: You haven't read the docu- teachers. ment. (d) That numbers of aides should be similar to kin- Mr T. D. EVANS: I have studied it dergarten aides. carefully. I will show that the concern (e) That class size and hours of parents and others goes further than of attendance be similar public meetings and the writing of letters. to individual people want to ventilate their kindergartens. feeling-- (2) Pilot schemes would probably start in 1915. be extended In Mr Young: All the way to the Teachers' 1976 and that an informal year Union. should be generally available in Mr T. D. EVANS: Just as well the 1977-8. member for Scarborough did not have a bet on the Hannan's Handicap on Satur- Mr Sibson: That is correct. day-he would have done no better than Mr T. D. EVANS: To continue- I did. (3) That playgrounds for this group Mr Young: Make your point. would have restricted entry. Mr T. D. EVANS: I will quote from the So we are going to practise segregation at letter to the Editor of The West Australian, the primary schools. To continue- and we can see that the minister him- (4) That the conventional Grade I self shares the honours. I would like to type classroom would generally ref er to Dr D. K. Wheeler-I will men- be unsuitable. tion him again when I come to the Dettinan report on secondary education- As I have said, the policy announced who is a reader in education at the Uni- was- versity of Western Australia. As late as We will lower the admission age to the 20th August of this year, he wrote- the primary school for the five-year- I wonder why the Liberal Party old to the year in which the child wants children to start school at five. turns five. The fact that they do so in England is Arising from this letter, a fundamental a historical accident- question Is posed because It refers to the Mr Sibson: We want to give them the basis of the whole scheme; that is, the opportunity. present kindergarten system. We must bear In mind that the Pre-School Educa.- Mr T. D. EVANS: To continue- tion Act stipulates that standards adopted -linked with the 19th century demand and set by the Australian Pre-School for cheap) child labour. 1192 1192[ASSEMBLY.]

Mr Young: The fact that this happens school education? He should certainly be in every State of Australia must be sheer aware of the impact of the Karmel report coincidence, too. on education in Australia. Mr T. D2. EVANS: Starting school at the Mr Young: Isn't everybody? age of five Is the subject of another letter to the editor on the 28th August, 1974- Mr T. D. EVANS: The Fry committee has already demonstrated that the Aus- Mr Young: Don Dunstan must be a nut. tralian Government desires to make at too. least one year of pre-school education Mr Clarke: Everyone who has been to available freely to all children whose pa- one of his lectures knows that Wheeler is rents desire that they attend. a maverick. Ile may be right in this ease. Mr Clarko: You rejected that report as but everyone knows he takes an unusual you rejected the Nott Inquiry. view. Mr T. D. EVANS: I did not reject the Mr T. D). EVANS: The former Minister Nott report. I initiated it. for Education in the Brand-Court Govern- Mr Clarko: You refused to carry out its ment did not think so. recommendations. Several members interjected. Mr T. D. EVANS: We set up a statutory The SPEAKER: Order!I body-that was the key recommendation of the Nott report. Mr T. D. EVANS: Hie would have higher educational qualifications--and that Is Mr Young: You took all the administra- obvious by comparison-than the member tion of the Kindergarten Association and for Karrinyup. He would have a far dumped it under a different board. YOU greater experience in the kindergarten did nothing at all-just changed its name. spectrum than the member for Karrinyup Mr T. D2. EVANS: The Minister has not is ever likely to have. been averse to using other forms of the Mr Clarko: That might apply to you media-not to throw any illumination on also. the subject, but to continue to spread Mr T. D. EVANS: Dr Wheeler was twice doubts and confusion. In the 22nd August President of the Kindergarten Union and issue of Charlie Carter's paper, Living a member of the Council of the Kinder- Today, the day after the Minister's letter garten Teachers' Training College and as appeared in The West Australian, the Min- such he speaks with some authority In this ister is reported as follows- educational spectrum. He discounted claims that too little I mention this to show Dr Wheeler is information had so far been made far from a maverick. I will make the available to the public on the proposed Point later on that Mr Lewis did not agree implementation of the scheme. with the allegation made by the member Mr MacKinnon said he head dis- for Karrinyup because Dr Wheeler's views seminated to the people most con- also influenced to a large extent the find- erned, including teachers, all the ings of the Dettman committee on Educa - Information he had received from the tion. committee. Mr Young: He also did not read our This demonstrates that before the Min- policy. ister set up this committee he did not have Mr T. fl EVANS: We now come to the a clue, and neither did the committee. If Minister for Education who shares in the the committee was well infonmed, it did honours with the people who bothered to not do a very good job In briefing the write to the editor on this important sub- Minister. ject. In The West Australian of the 21st Reference is made to the State School August the Minister makes this point- Teachers' Union, because Mr Trevor Lloyd The Government programme will complained about the scant information start these children in a school kinder- that had been provided. I do not need to garten- read any further because this clearly de- monstrates that the public generally-and That is a new term. I refer specifically to parents-and mem- Mr Clarko: That Is what they have in bers of Parliament in particular, even at Victoria. this late stage, are not fully informed as to Mr T. D. EVANS: To continue- whether this scheme will provide pre- school education for flve-year-olds within - in the year In which they turn five. the primary school stream, leaving those This will extend the benefits of kin- centres administered by the Pre-School dergarten to all children in the State, Education Board for the sole use of three- whereas at present kindergartens are year-olds and four-year-olds. We do not available for only some children. know whether moneys which will be made I agree with the Minister that at present available by the Australian Government to kindergartens are available only for some provide at least one Year of free pre- children, but is he not aware of the find- school education will be distributed solely ings of the Pry committee relating to pre- to the Pre-School Education Board or tWednesday. 4 September. 19741 119319

whether some of this money will find its questions touching on this very important way to the Education Department, pre- part of the educational programme. Very sumably to provide a type of pre-school soon after Parliament met-in fact at the education within the environment of the first opportunity members of Parliament primary school, despite the fact that the had to exercise the privilege of asking minister is alleged to have said, at 9. parliamentary questions--the member for meeting of delegates, that he believed ex- Morley asked this question- isting buildings were unsuitable. (1) When will 11-year-old children I1will come to the question of costs later attending State schools be admit- on. As a result of all this confusion, doubt. ted to high schools? and lack of information, is it any wonder (2) What steps will be taken to pro- that at the earliest opportunity the school vide for co-ordination in this res- teachers discussed this Issue-and I refer pect between Government and to this now for the education of the mem- non-Government schools? ber for Scarborough-at a meeting of the State School Teachers' Union. And the honourable member asked in all Mr Young: I had a feeling you would nine such probing justifiable questions. get around to them soon. Again the Minister grouped the questions together, dodged the issues involved, and Mr T. D. EVANS: This was the first answered- opportunity the teachers had to meet col- lectively as the annual conference of the (1) to (9) Priority has been given to union was held during the August school implementation of the policy with holidays. The meeting passed a resolution regard to children In their fifth that it would not have a bar of the year of age. Liberal Party policy, and the headline In Heavens above-the Minister said, "priority The West Au&strianM of the 24th August has been given". After what I have said, I reads, "Teachers to bar children under doubt that the priority is worth very much. five". I am glad that this part of the policy en- Mr Clarko: Do you support that? joys no priority at all. Mr r. D. EVANS: One of the main rea- His answer was- sons for the resolution was that the CGov- Preliminary discussions only, have erment had failed to demonstrate to those been held with regard to the 11-year- vitally concerned, the inherent principles old students. It is thus not possible to of Its policy. provide, at the present time, the de- Mr Young: Who would write your edu- tailed information requested. cation policy-the Teac-hers' 'Union? I asked a question on the same subject, Mr T. D. EVANS: No. seeking to establish whether this was part Mr Young: All right, and they did not of a. policy of polarisation and whether the write ours either. introduction of five-year-old schooling was to be on a voluntary or a compulsory basis. Mr T. D. EVANS: However, if we wished If it is the intention of the Government to initiate a radical policy, although we to introduce five-year-old schooling only on may not have been influenced by the union a voluntary basis, clearly this polarlses the we would have demonstrated our courtesy situation. Probably, it was intended by the by consulting with those concerned most Government that the transfer from primn- vitally with this field of education. ary to secondary school at the te-nder age Mr Sibson: Who did you consult about of 12 years would be Compulsory. I then the textbooks? asked whether this policy was intented to Mr Jamieson: The other States think apply to non-Government schools and I they are all right. was advised that non-Government schools are autonomous: they can please them- Mr T. D. EVANS: I now come to the selves what they do, provided they maintain other part of the Government's education their registration as an efficient school. policy announced by the Liberal Party sec- tion of this spare-part Government. Again Mr Clarko: That is right. the policy appears under the heading, "Primary Education" although it relates Mr T. D. EVANS: In other words, the to the age of transfer from primary Minister dodged the Issue. One could be schools to secondary schools. The policy excused for believing that this part of the reads as follows-- Government's policy will be compulsory when implemented in Government schools We propose that the transfer from and optional in non-Government schools. Primary to secondary schools will occur at the end of the year at which the Mr Clarko: Do you not believe that a child turns eleven. student over the age of 11 years can handle Again I make the point that the Govern- secondary school? ment has failed to give any significant Mr T. D. EVANS: On the 7th August I rationale of its policy, or any meaningful asked a further question touching upon detail by way of answers to parliamentary this matter. '421 1194 1194ASSEMBLY.]

Mr Cla rko: Do you not think they can While I pay great respect to the memory handle it in Victoria, or elsewhere? What of this great educationist, I find as I read about John Nicholls for example? He must a very small reference in this report re- have been 6' 3" at 11 years. lating to the transition from primary to secondary school that one of his comments Mr T. D. EVANS: Perhaps the member Intrigues me and somewhat surprises me. for Karrinyup should not endeavour merely He states- to hide his light under a bushel but should It is considered by some- hide himself in shame behind a curtain. Mr Clarko: On which issue? Unnamed and unnumbered- -that with improved techniques and Mr T. D. EVANS: My question of the the Introduction of decimal currency 7th August related to a committee of (which should result in a considerable which, presumably, the member for Ear- saving of time) that the primary school rlnyup was a member. I do not know be covered in six years and that the whether he was a very profitable one. secondary course would also be of six Mr Clarko: No, there was no profit In It years .. at all. I gave my time for nothing. What the change to decimal currency had Mr T. D. EVANS: I do not think the to do with it is beyond me. committee Profited very much by his pres- Mr O'Neil: If you do not know that, you ence. my question stated- obviously have never been a teacher. (1) Why was the recommendation of Mr T. D). EVANS: This was the only the Dettman Report on Second- reference supplied by the Government in ary Education rejected by the answer to my question which stated- enunciation of that part of the (2) What other comparable education Government's policies on educa- authority (with appropriate refer- tion relating to the transfer of ences to printed reports, etc.) can a child from the primary to sec- he cite to support this part of ondary school at the end of the Government policy? year In which the child attains the age of 11 years? Dr Robertson said that there are some; (2) What other comparable education he did not identify himself as one of those, authority (with appropriate refer- but merely claimed that there are some- ences to printed reports, etc.) can unnumbered and unnamed-and that is he cite to support this part of the authority upon which the Government Government policy? depends. Mr Speaker, I am sure that, with your Let us have a look at the Dettman re- educational background, the answer to the port. I have made the point that this part question will astound you. I know that of Government policy has been enunciated you would have studied carefully and been In rejection of the recommendation most impressed by the Dettmari report brought down by the Dettman committee. when it was Issued In February, 1959. The front page of this report Is addressed Part (2) of the answer stated- to the Hon. E. H. M. Lewis, MULA, Minister The decision is consistent with cur- for Education, and is dated the 3rd Febru- rent practice . .. an', 1969. 1 will quote only part of it. It states-- In other Australian States. My question also sought information relating to educa- Dear Mr Lewis, tion authorities which supported the Gov- I am pleased to present to you the ernmient's policy, but the Minister ducked Report of the Committee which you that part of the question. I received the appointed in June, 1967 .. answer that this practice is consistent with that adopted In some parts-not all parts Members should bear in mind that the -of Australia. Why was the Dettman re- Education Department Annual Report for Port, specially brought down at the request 1965 probably became available some time of the Hon. E. H. M. Lewis, the then Min- in June, 1966. I assume it would follow ister in the Brand-Court Government and the characteristics of most Government Prepared by an eminent educationist and reports. Its birth certificate would have former Director-General of Education re- been a little delayed before it reached this jected? The answer I received was that Parliament and, indeed, it may have been the Practice is comparable to that carried delayed before it reached the Minister. on in other parts of Australia. However, let us assume that it incurred a However, when I asked the Minister to modest delay and was available some time cite educational authorities, I was referred in June, 1966. In other words, only 12 to Page 18 of the Education Department months elapsed between the receipt of that Annual Report for 1965. So. I went report and the setting up of an expert com- eagerly seeking out this document and it mittee by Mr Lewis. In his report, Mr transpired that the annual report addres- Dettman, the chairman of the committee sed to the Hon. E. H. M. Lewis, the then of inquiry, referred to an investigation of Minister for Education, was the last effort adolescence which was being specially pre- of the then Director-General of Education, pared at the request of the committ,. the late Dr Robertson. Probably, the member for Karrlnyup would [Wednesday, 4 September, 1974] 1195 be familiar with the name of the person alteration to the existing pattern, but requested to carry out that investigation. indicated that a closer investigation I refer to Dr D. K. Wheeler. was needed ... By way of question, I Invited the Govern- Mr Clarko: I did not question that. I ment to Indicate what other comparable was questioning the point you were miaking education authorities supported the Gov- at the time. ernment's policy but the Government failed Mr T. D. EVANS: Let us have a look or refused to answer my question. Per- at the members of the committee. Its haps I am being petty; perhaps the Gov- chairman was Mr H. W. Dettman. I will ernment was not able to answer. not weary the House or embarrass the Mr Clarko: That is not the only way to member for Karrinyup with his educa- make changes. tional qualifications. Mr T. D. EVANS: The report of the Mr Clarko: You are not going to em- committee went on to state- barrass me. In recent years detailed investiga- tions into the age of transfer from Mr T. D. EVANS: Other members were primary to secondary schooling have Mr J. H. Barton, the Deputy Director- been made In Scotland and in England. General of Education; Monsignor J. E. The report of the conmmittee set up by Bourke, who was then Director of Catholic the Scottish Council for Research In Education in this State; Mr N. R. Collins: Education was published In 1966, and Miss U. Mitchell; Dr D. Mossenson, who a year later in England the matter was Director of Secondary Education; and, was reported on by the- Mr P. M. Moyes, who I believe is head- master of Christ Church Grammar School. The member for Karrinyup probably would Another member was Mr J. Paul; then be familiar with this body- there was Professor C. Sanders, who I be- -Central Advisory Council for Educa- lieve is still the Chairman of the Tertiary tion (the Plowden Report). In Scot- Education Commission. land, where the age of transfer is twelve, the report concluded: up by the Liberals. Mr Ciarko: Set The answer to the question Mr. T. D. EVANS: And improved by "what Is the appropriate age of Labor. Another member was Mrs M. Wil- transfer" must be that there is no liams. I make the point that this Mrs one correct age .. Williams, as distinct from the former mem- The Dettman recommendation was as fol- ber for Sunbury, is a Bachelor of Arts. lows-- Mr Jamieson: The former member for 'The age of transfer from primary to Bunbury was a Mrs, was he? secondary schools should continue to Mr Hartrey: That is quite a unique dis- be twelve plus as at present. tinction, of course. Mr Mensaros: You want the Govern- ment to be condemned, but one report says Mr T. D. EVANS: Another member of one thing and another report says an- the committee. Mr S. W. Woods, was the other. I do not understand how you Director of Special Services, and the last member to be listed, Dr R. R. Boyd]l, was reconcile these two things, and I would the District Superintendent of Education. like you to help me. Mr Clarko: Where is the Teachers' Mr T. D. EVANS: Having heard the Union representative on that? I thought argument in its entirety, the Minister can you were in favour of that. then assess the situation and reply. If he does anything less than that, he will not Mr T. 1). EVANS: This is an expert do justice to the position he holds. committee on education. I will come to Mr Mensaros: I am just trying to be the Teachers' Union in a moment. clever and comprehend what you are talk- Mr Clarko: I thought you would; I just ing about. thought I would encourage you. Mr T. D. EVANS: Because the Govern- Mr T. D. EVANS: What did this com- ment did not bother to demonstrate to mittee recommend? At the risk of being those who, naturally, were concerned with repetitive I should like to mention again the educational merits inherent In these that, probably after the receipt of the 1965 radical changes, what do we find? Education Department Report, no more I shall not weary the House by reading than 12 months elapsed before Mr Lewis set all the references I have before me. How- up this committee. The committee made a ever, a report appeared in The West Aus- recommendation on the age of transfer tralian of the 17th August under the head- from Primary to secondary school. Refer- ing of, "Opposition to school change". ence to this is to be found at page 96 of This opposition came from high school the report. It states-- principals. In The West Australian of the The Committee of Inquiry consider- 26th August a report appeared under the ed the question of the Point of transfer heading, 'Age plan opposition increases". from Primary to secondary schools and This time the opposition came from the reported that It did not feel Justified annual conference of the Council of State at that time in recommending any School Organisations. 1196 1198ASSE2VILY. I

In a report which appeared in the Daily is implemented. I wished to ascertain News of the 21st August, under the head- how many additional children at the ing of, "High school plan not understood" tender age of 11 years plus would be the opposition came from the Secondary living away from home to obtain secondary School Principals' Association. If the high education. school plan is not understood, whose fault is it? I suggest it is the fault of the This was a question in respect of which Government. I had difficulty in obtaining an answer, but finally it was answered. In his answer I asked some very Interesting questions the Premier grouped the first, second, and to ascertain whether the Government had third parts of my question. This is a in this, as well as In other matters of its popular dodge that is adopted by Govern- educational policies, bothered to determine ments, and I am not saying that the beforehand what impact such policies present Government has a monopoly on would have and whether the changes would this practice. The reply of the Premier be beneficial, or to apprise itself as to what was-- detrimental effect to the welfare of the most important part of the education If I could give the answer exactly machine-I refer to the child-would that way it would put the mind of result. the honaurable member at rest, and If the Liberal Party section of the Gov- also provide the information which ernment has taken these steps then surely he seeks. It would have regard to the children living I personally do not know of a specific in the country areas. I am referring specifically to the transfer of children from approach. primary to secondary education at the Apparently the Premier did not know of tender age of 11 years plus, or 12 years any specific approach that had been made minus. by the other part of the present Govern- I wonder what members of the National ment, before it became the Government, to Alliance have to say about this, because the Country High School Hostels Author- many letters have been written to the ity. I make the point that the National Editor of The West Australian by parents Alliance did not announce or even endorse of children who have had to board away that policy. I shall come to that point a fromn home, as no suitable education at the little later. secondary level was available near their homes. Concern has been expressed at the The Government has failed at the grass tender age at which a child will be tugged roots level bef ore enunciating these away from Its parents, and sent to a policies to demonstrate it had come to secondary school. grips with the situation, and was fully assured of the educational changes and of If the Government had decided to test whether there was likely to be any detri- the Impact of such a policy it would have mental or beneficial effect on the child referred this question to the Country High inherent. School Hostels Authority. The Govern- ment would also have sought to ascertain Is it any wonder that we have the mem- the enrolments in the high schools for this ber for Mundaring seeking an explanation Year; the contemplated enrolments for the of why a high school which had been foreseeable years; the capacity of these promised for his electorate, and in respect schools; and whether they would be able of which preliminary work had com- to cater for the influx of the new class of menced, was deferred by this Government? children of 11 years plus. It would also That is the proposed high school at Swan have sought information on the number of View. Presumably the Government has new hostels which are contemplated to be done this in an endeavour to conserve built, and the extensions to be made to funds to enable it to put into operation its existing hostels. extravagant promises.- Apparently the Government did not is it any wonder that in this climate of seek this information at all, but I did by doubt and confusion the people of Swan asking a question in this House on the View have despaired, and we find letters 28th August of the Minister representing such as the one I am referring to being the Minister for Education. I also sought written to The West Australian? This to find out the number of students who letter was addressed to the editor from the were attending hostels conducted beyond staff of the Balcatta Senior High School, the auspices of the Country High School and was dated the 8th August. By that r Hostels Authority, so as to form an esti- do not mean the letter appeared in The mate of the total number of children who West Australian of that date. In the letter at the present time might well be living the staff of the Balcatta Senior High away from home in order to gain anr School stated that they noted with con- education at the secondary level. I did siderable concern the statement by the that to enable me to make a forecast, which Education Department, reported In the the Government did not make, of what north section of that newspaper of the the situation would be if this part 7th August, that no definite date could of the Government's education policy be given for the provision of high schools [Wednesday, 4 September, 1974] 119719 in any of the areas in the Wanneroc I have newspaper cutting after news- Shire. Six areas were named. The letter paper cutting showing the promises made went on to state- by the Liberal Party before the election. One report appeared in The West Aus- This school serves most of the tralian under the heading of, "Lab. accused Northern Corridor west of Wanneroo of false costing". The Liberal Party put Road and Is already overcrowded. up an estimate of the cost, but the Treas- Eleven pre-fabricated so-called class- ury put up a much larger estimate of the rooms are in use this year. It is cost of the Liberal Party's promises. The certain that more of these unsatis- Premier claimed that if the Treasury offi- factory rooms will be needed next cials had taken the opportunity to contact year. him he would have put them right in re- Mr Clarko: Is Balcatta High School gard to this costing. He said that In that event the Treasury officials. would have overcrowded? come up with a far more reasonable estim- Mr T. D. EVANS:, The first part of the ate of costs. That was before the election. Government's policy was to limit student numbers at high schools to 1 000, and at Now, six months afterwards, we are told senior high schools to 400. If anything that the Government is giving priority to was destined to make people throw up their the five-year-ols, and it cannot tell us how hands In horror It would be that part of much the cost will be. I think the Gov- the policy. We all know that whilst over ernment's attitude is in contempt of the the years education has rightly commanded people of the State and of this Parliament. the largest part of the State Budget, not I have charged the Government for fail- nearly enough--even assuming that every Ing in several respects, as outlined In the Government has endeavoured to obtain full motion before us. I have endeavoured to value for every dollar spent on education be specific, and I have referred to the -has been available for education. Liberal Party section of the Government. However, no longer can I excuse the mem- So, In that atmosphere high schools bers who form the other part of the coal- which have been promised have been de- ition, be they of the Country Party, the ferred. The people In my own electorate National Alliance, or a combination of waited a long time for a senior high school, those two names. and they are still waiting for the com- pletion of stage 2. Is It any wonder that On the 15th August 1 asked an Interest- people throw up their hands in horror Ig question of the Minister representing when they see a policy such as this which the Minister for Education as follows- limits student numbers at high schools to 1 000? I might add that I find little to Would he please Indicate whether the complain about In this policy. However, education policies enunciated by the It Is the second limb of the policy limiting Premier at the hustings; as the pro- the number of students at senior high gramme of the Liberal Party, have schools to 400 with which I am concerned. now been endorsed by both the Gov- ernment coalition parties? Mr Clarko: The recommendation in the Dettman report was very similar. The reply was-- Whilst in the written policies there Mr T. D. EVANS: I was strongly tempt- might be minor differences in empha- ed to ask a question as to how many new sis and definition-the short answer Is high schools would be required, In accord- yves. ance with the policy to limit the student numbers to 400, and what the cost would I followed that up by asking the follow- be. However, the member for Morley did ing question of the Deputy Premier on the ask this question, and he was told the same day- Government was giving priority to the five- Year-old children, and was unable to ans- (1) Did the National Alliance prior to wer the question. 30th March, 1974 General Elec- tion announce any specific policy I should point out these questions were or policies relating to education? asked six months after the election, and I (2) if (1) is "Yes" is the announce- would have thought the Government would ment in printed form and may a be eager to answer them In Parliament. copy of same be made available The Government's attitude shows a con- tempt of Parliament. on the question of to me? costs, before the election the Press was 1 am glad to say that the Deputy Premier alive with allegations and counter alle- obliged, and appeared to oblige willingly. gations coming from both political parties. So, this is part of the policy announced I do not intend to dwell very long on that by the National Alliance, and it pays a aspect. Here is something else which the tribute to the then Labor Government Government announced prior to the elec- because the printed form commenced by tion, but it seems to have gone into the stating- land of limbo since then. This is the Liberal Party's proposal for a school lease- The party pledges full support to back scheme. We have not heard anything the continued improvement of educa- more about that. tion in Western Australia. 1198 198[ASSEMABLY.)

Then It goes on to state specifically that Mr H. D. EVANS: I formally second the the party will do certain things. Inter alia motion. we find the policy of the National Affiance Mr MENSAROS: As I said, I find myself contains this undertaking- in considerable difficulty in replying to The compulsory commencing age the member for Kalgoorlie. When I read for formal school should be the year his motion I was in complete darkness in in which the child turns six... trying to understand why he really wanted Another undertaking is-- the Government to be condemned. Is the Special attention will be directed Government to be condemned for enun- towards- ciating its policy on education? Is It to be condemned because of its policies (a) Secondary education for all to on education? Is it to be condemned be- commence in their thirteenth year. cause, according to the allegation made This is in direct conflict with the Liberal by the member for Kalgoorlie, it is Party's policy. unable to Provide meaningful details The National Alliance announced differ- by way of answers to parliamentary ques- ent polices, and now that part of the tions regarding some policy matters on Government has to eat humble pie and which the member elaborates in part 1 bow to its masters, the Liberal Party. (a), (b), and (c) of his motion? I do not Mr Clarko: Not on the question of think any of those allegations would starting school. create a state of mind in any member- no matter to which party he belonged- Mr T. D. EVANS: For the benefit of to inspire him to condemn the Govern- the member for Karrlnyup I will refer ment for having initiated its policy. The again to paragraph 4. For five-year-olds Government has initiated its policy and I the compulsory commencing age for think that is fair enough, and commend- formal schooling should be the year in able. If the Government has not supplied which the child turns six. enough information to the honourable Mr Clarko: We are talking about volun- member, by way of answers to parlia- tary attendance. mentary questions. I do not know that Mr T. D. EVANS: We are talking about that reflects more on the reply or on the transferring children to primary school questioner. when the child turns five. I feel I have Mr T. D. Evans: There was more than clearly demonstrated the reason for each one question. of the allegations set out in the motion. I believe the Government should be con- Mr MENSAROS: I1was hopeful that the demned; that the dimensions of the de- honourable member would give enough bate, with Its cogency and the depth and information for me to comprehend his width of consideration of the issues in- motion which, quite frankly, I am unable volved. have clearly shown the Govern- to do. Unfortunately, he did not supply ment at fault. Six months after the the information and the position is no election it is largely inactive. The Minis- clearer now than it was before he rose ter for Education-and I feel strongly for from his seat. him-finds himself in an educational no- Mr T. D. Evans: Are we to receive the man's-land. For political motives, he has benefit of a considered reply from the been thrust there by persons, who have Minister for Education after lbe has read come up with such ridiculous changes un- the entire debate? tested either before or after the event. Mr O'Neil: The Minister for Education Mr Clarko: Like thousands of children happens to be in another place. in Victoria and New South Wales. Mr MENSAROS: That question does Mr T. D. EVANS: Unfortunately, de- not throw more light on my problem, bates such as this, whilst put forward for either. Does the honourable member im- consideration in the dimension of debate, ply that he did not expect a reply from are not tested by the same method; they the Minister representing the Minister for are tested by the counting of heads. I Education? know what the fate of this motion will Mr T. D. Evans: I expected a considered be: be that as It may, I believe that this reply to be given by the Minister repre- will go on record for all time. In the senting the Minister for Education, at future many people will see, as they now least after the Minister had had an oppor- see, that they have recourse to the old tunity to advise the Minister making the maxim. res ipsa loquitur-things speak reply on this occasion. The Minister for for themselves. Education has not had that opportunity at all. MR MENSAROS (Floreat-Minister for Industrial Development) [8.37 p.m.]:. I Mr MENSAROS: I am in the process of trying to reply, if the honourable member find myself in considerable difficulty in will allow me. I have unlimited time during replying to this matter. which to reply but I do not intend to speak The SPEAKER: Order! Is there a for too long: it will depend on the be- seconder to the motion? haviour of members opposite. We have put (Wednesday, 4 September. 1974] 119919 forward our policy and I do not think this I think the member would condemn the Is something for which we should be con- Government-and rightly so-if the Gov- demned. On the contrary, I suggest that ernment were to try to implement and the member for Kalgoorlie-and possibly introduce a policy without any further the orther members of his party-baa some Investigation and without any further re- form of chip on his shoulder. His speech search into the practicability of Its policy Proved that. However, the honourable and how It should be Implemented. That member has not come forward with a Is exactly what the Government has done, comprehensive policy on education, nor has for which any fair-minded person would any other representative of his party. commend the Government and not con- demn it. Mr Jamieson: The Labor Party has done mare for education than the member oppo- The member for Kalgoorlie went on to site will ever do. complain that the Minister for Education -and he started to go Into detail-had Mr MENSAROS: Members opposite said something about the admission age, have introduced education into politics. I and that the first year would be similar to reject very much the final words of the attendance at a kindergarten. He related member for Kalgoorlie when he intro- this point to his motion and complained duced this motion. It was our party which bitterly about it. Again. I cannot under- wanted to divorce this question from poli- stand exactly what the complaints are. If tics. I consider this is one field which be suffers from some sort of lack of com- should be divorced from politics; it sim- prehension I am quite prepared, with your ply does not belong there. Indulgence, Mr Speaker, to read to him the Mr Jamieson: That shows how unreal part of our policy which makes the position is the mind of the member opposite. quite clear. To my mind It could well be expressed by saying that the first year will Mr Mclver: Is he able to sleep at night- be similar to a kindergarten because the time? Liberal Party education policy dealing with Mr MENSAROS: is that all? primary education states-- Mr Skidmore: If the member waits a We believe that the basis of a sound while longer I could send him some more education is developed In the early interjections. years of a child's life. We therefore advocate that-- Mr MENSAROS: I tried to follow the thoughts of the member for K~algoorlie (a) The age of admission to schools be when he condemned the Government lowered to the year In which the because, as he claimed, our policy is not child turns five and that admission based on the Nott report. At a later stage to school be either on a term or of his speech he claimed that our policy half -yearly basis. was not based on the Dettman report. The member is perfectly right because we did (b) The programme for the first year of school be of a sei-formal not take any particular report on which nature to provide a sound basis for to base our policy. the development of formal skills. During the very long course of building our policy which, as the member for Kal- I do not think the member for Kalgoorlie goorlie implied, is very comprehensive, we could express that better, and I do not took into consideration many reports and think he can complain because the Min- many suggestions from a tremendous ister compared this, or referred to this, as something similar to kindergarten. So, I number of people. cannot effectively reply other than that to Mr Mclver: Nobody wants it. the question. Mr MENSAROS: The member for Kal- goorlie then questioned the validity of some The member for Kalgoorlie went on and of the answers he received to Parliamen- complained that we had, or had not, con- tary questions. I do not want to deal with sulted certain people, and he named them. this matter because although you, Mr He asked why we did, or why we did not, Speaker, were very tolerant with him I do agree, or disagree, with their contentions, not think that what he said had much to IfScomprehenslble as is the first part of the do with the motion, whether the answers motion, I tried to understand It for the were right or wrong. The honourable benefit of the member for Kalgoorlie. He member complained that the replies to wishes to express the fact that he does not questions indicated that some investiga- understand our Policy, and he does not tions were being carried out regarding the understand the answers he received to his implementation of our policy. I would like questions. The answers were supplied to remind members-in ease the member according to the questions. for Kalgoorlie does not understand-that Mr T. D. EVans: What about other two different matters are involved. There members who received is a policy enunciated in principle, and in similar answers? a very practical and understandable way, Mr MENSAROS: For the benefit of the and there Is the Implementation of that member for Kalgoorlie, and In answer to policy. his interjections requesting elaboration on 1200 1200ASSEMBLY.] certain aspects, I have obtained a state- form, to all children in all parts of ment from the Minister for Education the State, without cost to parents. I which reads as follows-- would stress that this development is The value of suitable educational proceeding with co-operation between experiences in early childhood Is so the Education Department and the well attested in research and commit- Pre-school Education Board, who will tees of inquiry both here and overseas continue to work side by side. that its provision is virtually beyond debate. Such a development within the Edu- The undoubted benefits to be de- cation Department, when widely estab- rived in Intellectual and social emot- lished, will allow the board greater ional development are such that few freedom to become more deeply in- would argue the merits of the Incor- volved in the establishment and co- poration of less structured, less formal ordination of voluntary subsidised pro- approaches below the limits of the grammes for children who are younger present age for compulsory schooling. still. While few would disagree with the The programme being developed will merits of providing these educational obviously involve considerable plan- experiences there would be considerable ning modification, as does any worth- opposition to any attempts to rigidly while educational programme. Fobr fornalise the experiences to be gained this reason, a phased development, in- or to force parents to have their volving the piloting of a variety of children participate. The present State situations, will be attempted. Policy in recognition of this fact Is based on a voluntary part-time ap- In all of this, however, the standard proach consistent with established of the Australian Pre-school Associa- theoretical tion will guide the development with and practical applications respect to equipment, staff, group of early childhood education. sizes, parent involvement, time of at- To state that the admission age of tendance, and the like. children in primary schools wil be lowered is not to infer compulsion or A second aspect of Government rigid formalisation. policy-which is referred to in para- graph 1 (b) of the motion-has in- As has been stated previously, this volved a reorientation of the articula- is not simply a Programme for five- tion between primary and secondary rear-olds but a provision for voluntary schooling. The false dichotomy that educational experience in the year has tended to develop between these these children turn five. two areas has been a matter of concern Mr T. D_ Evans: That is not in accord- to educators for some time. ance with the recommendation of the Nott report. Various approaches have been sug- Mr MENSAROS: That might well be so. gested-the middle school concept, for Had the honourable member been listening example, is directed in part to this to me, he would have heard me try to con- question-and some criticism has been vey to him, firstly, that we do not claim our made of early attempts to formalise policy is based entirely on one or the other and specialise secondary schooling. report. We claim that we considered as In this State. the first year of high many reports and as much information as school has long been seen as an adjust- we had available to us. ment period; in North America the Mr T. D. Evans: The Minister for Edu- junior high school concept attempts cation is reported'-as saying that part of to allow room for exploration and the policy is endorsed by the Nott report, choice before educational directions but that is not so. become more formalised. This present Mr MENSAROS: Secondly, whether or policy Is an attempt to provide educa- not the minister for Education said this tors with the opportunity to rethink or something else does not affect the the programmes associated with the validity and the merit of the educational last year of primary schooling and policies of the joint Government parties, the fIrst year of secondary schooling, which I will go into at greater depth than in order to provide opportunities for- did the honourable member who posed the (a) A blending of primary-second- question. I do not understand whether ary approaches to ensure a the honourable member condemned the less troublesome transition by policy or Just complained about certain students and a reduction in. things. the impersonality of high However, I will continue with the ex- schools; planation the honourable member wanted. (b) a deferment of subject spe- The Minister says-- cialisatlon and the opportu- With the direct participation of the nities for Pursuit of child Education Department, this provision interest and the development will eventually be available, in some of interests: tWednesday, 4 September, 1974])20 1201

(c) a deferment of decisions with Few would argue the disadvantages respect to ultimate study that accrue to large size. Again, the goals and career selection; discipline report comments on the im- (d) a more integrated approach to personality that can be found in large learning, and opportunities for high schools. One of its recommenda- the explanation of centres of tions was specifically directed towards this problem and to measures that interest; would enhance student/administrator (e) a broadening of senior Prim.- contact, ary opportunity to eater for Mr T. D. Evans: The Dettman report the exceptional child. made another significant recommendation it Is clear that a single year is not a which you have rejected. sufficient period in which to effect the Mr Skidmore: Do not interrupt the above-mentioned objectives. lesson. The combination of the last year of Mr MENSAROS: That may be so. I was primary and the first year of high asked by the honourable member to clarify school will Provide the opportunity to the policy which he could not understand combine the best attributes of both despite the fact that I think It is clearly Programmes and thus allow a greater stated here. I con tinue- opportunity to benefit from the off er- ings of further secondary education. Another recommendation strongly Obviously such a major rethinking of emphasised the need for the differenti- educational Policy cannot be achieved al treatment of upper and lower school within a short period. The principles students with respect to the use of have been drawn; the alternatives need physical facilities, the planning of to be examined; many need to be in- social and recreational activities, and valved and consulted. the compilation of school rules. The approach is broad in its applica- Separation in high schools can occur the district high in a physical or an administrative tion for it offers sense and, clearly, if any limits are to schoolsa unique opportunity to develop be set the concept. The district high school for size or if any attempts are to be made at physical separation, is one situation where primary and considerations secondary grades are contained within of cost and of human the one building, and it is here that and material resourses must be taken into account. Such considerations, administrative arrangements and cur- however, ricula reorientation can be examined should not blind us to the and -piloted with a view to a wider ultimate goals set down. acceptance within the State. Such an Obviously, Implementation will pro- approach developed by teachers can ceed slowly and In full consideration ensure that the further implementa- of any possible disruption to the sys- tion of the concept has a strong tem. In one case, existing bulldinjs grounding in practice and can be modi- may allow for physical separation fled where necessary to suit conditions under separate administrations; In within the State- another, a concept of a school within a school will allow the adoption of new A third matter of policy-to which approaches and philosophies. the honourable member referred in Where new schools are to be built, paragraph I1(c) of his motion-which there should be no service Problems as is related to the above is the admini- far as buildings are concerned. The strative restructuring of secondary expression of the Policy, however, may schools. The recent discipline report depend on such factors as total num- highlighted the social emotional dif- bers of students or other local con- ferences that emerge between age siderations. The policies are there to levels as children progress through guide our developments. We will need the secondary school. These dif - to be pragmatic in putting them into ferences reflect, in some measure, practice. those that are found in educational aspiration and orientation. Even to the Mr Skidmore: Here endeth an inspiring unskilled observer, there is a consider- lesson. able physical and mental separation .Mr MIENSAROS: In answer to the Inter- between the child entering high school jection by the member for Swan, I repeat from primary school and the near that it was not my ambition to teach mem- adult who is in the fourth and fifth bers on the other side. I am replying to year of high school. a motion which was not quite comprehen- Recognition of these differences can slble-to me, at least. Perhaps It was be seen in developments such as the comprehensible to the member for Swan Tasmanian matriculation college,' and and he will get up and explain It much they can be seen in proposals that better than the member for Kalgoorlie examine the concept of the school did. within a school. Mr Skidnmore: Do not challenge me. 1202 1202[ASSEMBLY.)I

Mr AMNSAROS: I wanted to oblige; Mr T. D. Evans: That has nothing to hence, by courtesy of the Minister for do with education; you have brought It Education, I supply this answer. down to the level of politics. It now come to the second paragraph of the motion, which Is even mare Interesting Mr MENSAROS: Yes, exactly: but my and less understandable. The honourable remarks were in accordance with the con- member apparently wants to condemn the tents of paragraph 2 of the motion. That Government because it is- paragraph is purely political and has noth- ing to do with education. Now the mem- Endeavouring to reconcile patent ber for Kalgoorlie Is complaining because conflict between certain key essentials I have taken the stick that he offered me In Policy of the two coalition parties and replied to him in the vein of his constituting the Government; motion. What should I do? Should I That might be a basis for condemnation just sit down and not reply to the hion- but, again, I wonder which member would ourable member's speech? Irrespective of support it. It Is a fact of life that a coali- his comments I shall continue with my tion of two different parties exists. It Is reply. a further fact of life that each of those parties has a different policy which Is In the third paragraph of his motion developing in a different way, despite the the member for Kaigoorlie canvasses the fact that in the given circumstances their criteria for our policies. He says that philosophies-and particularly their anti- certain criteria have not been developed. socialist philosophies-are the same. They I would suggest quite earnestly that again have developed their two different policies the sentiment expressed is that because and formed a coalition, and naturally, al- the Liberal Party offered a comprehensive most by compulsion, they endeavour to and sound educational policy before the reconcile the differences in their policies, election, whereas the Labor Party con- if any. Uf anyone can explain to me what tinued with the same old stock, perhaps is wrong with that and why it Is to be waving the Karmel report-which was not condemned rather than commended, I1will of its doing-now the Labor Party is be very happy. I Will read that paragraph Jealous of our policy and seeks to accuse of the motion again. The Government the Government of being unable to state should be condemned for- its criteria. I think the criteria are self- explanatory; but, of course, we would Endeavouring to reconcile patent never say that a formulated policy is en- conflict between certain key essentials tirely faultless, especially when viewed In in policy- retrospect 10, 20, or 30 years later. If Mr T. D. Evans: There would not be we were to claim that we would look any conflict had you done your homework stupid. However, we did say that our before announcing the policy. policy was created on the best ground, Mr MENSAROS: To take this the other and It will stand the tnial which of neces- way around, which one should be able to sity it must stand. do, the Government should not reconcile In respect of the third point of the policies and should try to Implement some- motion the Minister for Education s~ld thing in which there might be a conflict. that it contains some most unusual ver- I am at a loss. However, the Minister for biage. He has supplied the following ex- Education has again supplied some Infor- planation- mation. Perhaps he can understand this reason for condemnation better than I Dealing first with the apparent can. He says-- necessity to name the professional edu- cationists who are involved in looking The second point of the motion has at the policy: This of course, is a to do with alleged conflicts between matter for their own personal wish. the two coalition parties. Specifically. It has nothing to do with the Opposi- each party supports the attendance at tion. Nor is the Government in a pre-primary centres on a voluntary position to enforce these people to basis, so there is no difference on that disclose their names if they do not aspect. wish to. The matters along which agreement had to be reached were minimal. In Some names--indeed quite a few- any group of people, whether they be- have been given, some have not. So long what? As I have said earlier, there to one party or two, one arrives are a. great number of Independent at a consensus and proceeds in this authorities who have recommended action. the procedures which have been There is every indication that coali- adopted by the Liberal Party as its tion parties In government in Western policy. Australia are having far fewer difficul- We are dealing here with a matter, ties than the Australian Labor Party. the final proof of which will be shown I think the Minister for Education is very when the children now entering the right in those remarks. I come now to the education system have reached the age third paragraph of the motion. of 25, or thereabouts. [Wednesday. 4 September, 19741 1203

In short, there is a considerable The monetary cost of transferring amount of theory involved. For the seventh-grade children Into high practical effects we can look to other school In all the district hi-gh schools countries which have introduced many where the primary school Is on the of the procedures suggested. Such same campus Is a round sum- of examination indicates that there is nothing. every chance of success in the pro- If, as a high school needs to be built posals adopted and, indeed, of an im- an upper college Is constructed, with provement on the present standards. fourth and fifth year moved from ad- I come now to the fourth point of the jacent high schools into that school, motion, which simply seeks to condemn it then follows again that the cost of the Government because it refuses to In- moving the seventh grade into the dicate the expected costing of the Imple- high school scene is negligible. mentation of each and all of its policies. Children need a challenge. It Is a Of course. I have tried to explain that happy fact that they also love a there Is a difference between a policy and challenge. the implementation of that policy; and In The policy outlined by the Premier this case the Implementation of the Policy at the last election is a challenging cannot of necessity be carried out in six and a rewarding one. It will be to the months, one year, or even two or three grave disadvantage of the children of years. this State if the Government Is in- hibited In pursuing Its clear respons- Mr T. fl. Evans: If that was the case, Ibility in implementing its policy by how was the Premier able to come out and obstructionism for any of the follow- give an alleged costing to the electorate? ig reasons-- Mr MENSAROS: In this regard the Min- to score cheap political points; ister for Education says- to preserve existing areas of auth- The final Point in the motion deals ority; or with the costing of the implementa- for imagined industrial disadvant- tion of each and all the aspects of the ages. policy and there has been more non- sense spoken about this particular The Premier outlined a policy; the aspect than about any other. electors returned his Government. For example, I know of no Govern- That Government has a clear respons- ment in Australia which has not prom- Ibilty and the necessary authority ised at least one full year of pre- from the people to pursue that policy. primary education for every child In I do not think I can say much more In the country. This being so, what respect of this motion. I repeat it Is hard difference can there be In the cost if to comprehend-if indeed anyone can com- the construction is built on presently prehend It. existing school sites or on separately Purchased sites? The latter would be Mr may: I'll say it is. the most expensive. Mr MENSAROS: Certain parts of the It follows, therefore, that the Liberal motion are entirely contradictory. I repeat: Party's Proposal would be the least in our opinion education is the last subject expensive and Money would be saved. which should be connected with politics, because it least belongs in that sphere. We Mr T. D). Evans: Tell us how much. have a comprehensive policy which is a Mr MENSARtOS: The Minister for Ed- very good one. It is a well thought out ucation continues-- Policy. The Labor Party has not such a Again, the speed with which the Policy; hence its jealousy and hence this proposal is completed markedly affects motion which, of course, I oppose In its the cost involved. If one were to at- entirety. tempt the Impossible-to build all Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr H. the pre-primary centres In, say, two fl. Evans. Years-the cost would be exorbitant indeed. This will not be done. The whole CONSERVATION AND THE ENVIRON- programme Will be phased in gradu- MENT ally and the cost will, therefore, be Appointment of Standing Committee: manageable. The price can be worked Motion out on last Year's costs if that would mean anything; but it just seems a Debate resumed, from the 28th August, Pointless exercise. The same situation. on the following motion by Mr A, ft. of course, applies to other aspects of Tonkin- the Policy. That in the opinion of this Hlouse Everyone seems to forget that X there should be established by It as Dumber of children require X number soon as is practicably possible, a stand- of seats, and a classroom for every ing committee on conservation and the 30 5. environment. 1204 1204ASSEMBLY.]

MR CARR (Geraldton) (9.09 p.m.): The could be made up of members of this member for Morley moved this motion, House and of another place. That would and I formally seconded it. In speaking give us 8i members to participate in these to the motion. I want to present my re- committees. marks in three main parts. I would like firstly to outline the case for standing com- Mr Grayden: But you want to see that mittees, generally;, secondly, I want to dis- House abolished. cuss the importance of conservation and Mr CARR: That is a fairly irrelevant environment issues, generally; and then, comment. thirdly, I want to tie up those two points to establish the desirablity for the ap- Mr Bertram: We would like to see you pointment of this particular standing abolished! committee. Mr CARR: I would like to discuss the Speaking firstly In connection with involvement of back-benchers in the de- committees generally, the member for bates in this House. Although I have been Morley said last Wednesday that he had here for a very short time it appears that been consistent In his attitude towards mast of the debates centre around the front standing committees. This was acknow- benches; that is, the Ministers and the ledged by the Minister when he replied to shadow Ministers, and after them the Op- the honourable member. In the three position back-benchers. It seems to mue that. years that the member for Morley was the members who have the least opportun- In the Government back bench, he sup- ity to participate in debates are the G3ov- ported the committee system, and now, ernment back-benchers. I imagine that in a while in opposition, he also supports the committee system the Government back- committee system. I am In a position of benchers would make up the major repre- being here in Just one of the two roles- sentation on the committees. I presume in Opposition-and I support completely that the Government would insist on a the committee system. I hope when the majority representation, and as the Minis- time comes and I am sitting on the Gov- ters are very busy, they would probably ernment bench I will still support the com- join a committee which was directly con- mittee system. cerned with their portfolio only. Mr Shalders: That will be a long time. My second reason for advocating a com- Mr CARER: Is that "electoral fiddle" mittee system is that it will provide mem- going through after all? bers with the opportunity to specialise and to gain expertise. No member could have Mr Shalders: You have seven seats to knowledge of all the subjects discussed in make up. the House, and certainly he could not The SPEAKER: Order! research every subject in the desired Mr CARR: Returning to the topic of depth. A committee system would provide standing committees, firstly I 'would like a vehicle whereby each member could to dispel the main argument put forward concentrate on a particular subject area by the Minister in opposition to standing and he would gain considerable expertise committees in this House. He pointed out in this area. The committee could call that we have 51 members only and hie said upon public servants to discuss aspects of this number was too small to operate a particular developmental projects, and committee system. I point out to him that also, of course, the committee would re- a committee system works very efficiently ceive submissions and representations from In the Australian Senate. on a, number individual experts in the community. This of occasions these committees have pre- then gives the added advantage of in- sented valuable reports, and the Minister creased community involvement In the is aware, of course, that there are only 60 decision-making process. members In the Senate. So the comparison Another argument for the committee between this Howse and the Senate is a system is that it would provide the oppor- fairly valid one. tunity for ongoing attention. The com- Mr Stephens: of the 60 members in the mittee would operate throughout the year, Senate, how many bold ministerial posi- and thus members would have access to tions? information at times other than when Mr CARR: Eight to 10 1 would suggest. Parliament is sitting. The present position Is that when Parliament is not sitting it Mr May:, They have more daylight over is much more difficult to acquire informa- there! tion from departments and Ministers than Mr Orayden: We are getting a bit off the it is when we are able to direct questions track! to Ministers in the House. Mr CARR: I make the point also that The elected representatives would have there is no reason the system should be the opportunity for greater involvement in confined to this House, although the decision-making. The trend is established motion refers to the Legislative Assembly- whereby civil servants have an increasing The Government has the numbers in both say in government, and this is due firstly Houses, and if It saw fit to act on the to the increasing complexity of govern- motion, the membership of the committees ment, and also to the fact that more and (Wednesday, 4 September, 19741 101205 more expertise is being marshalled within Mr B. T. Burke:, He is an Insult to the Civil Service, A committee system Journalism. would help to bring decision-making back to the actual representatives. By creating Mr Davies: He should be brought before a group of four or five people to concen- the Bar of the House. trate heavily on one particular field of Mr CARR: I might say that the House legislation, we will find that members needs to override this type of emotional- develop sufficient expertise to give Minis- Ism and to give a lead in mature discu-s- ters a second avenue of advice. At the sion. We must get away from those people moment a Minister receives advice from who worship the god of development and his department, and on most occasions that scorn the people whom they refer to as is the only real source of information "eco-nuts". available to him. With a committee systemn he would have a group of parliamentary Similarly, we should be wary of those representatives whom I believe would be people who are negative environmentalists. aware of the wishes of the people. This There is a danger that some people will committee would also be able to make advocate conservation for conservation's comments and representations to the Min- sake, and I will quote one example which ister and give a second opinion. has come to my attention recently. Mr Stephens: If the Ministers do not It was planned to demolish a building, come close to the wishes of the people, not a particularly old building or one of you have a change of Government, great historical or architectural merit. Mr T. J. Burke: What about the mess However, this building was to be demo- in between? lished and the conservationists lobbyed on Mr May: What about the fuel Bill? the basis that the staircase in the building should be preserved. This sounded fairly The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Blalkie):. reasonable until I realised that the planned Order! development to utilise the staircase was a Mr May: Does that mean you are going single-storied building, so we would have to be defeated soon? shades of "The Fiddler on the Roof", 'with Mr CARR: My suggestion for a corn- a "staircase leading nowhere just for mittee system is not meant to be an attack show". on the Government, on any Government, When conservation is discussed. Lbs or on Governments in general. argument is expressed frequently In terms Mr Hartrey: Hear, hear! of industry and development on the one hand and conservation on the other. Mr CARP: I point out that the Govern- ment of the day would have aLmajority Although I am a keen conservationist. I representation on each committee. We am prepared to acknowledge the capacity should also acknowledge the fact that of industrial development to provide em- Governments do not have a monopoly of ployment and human betterment. However, knowledge. To illustrate that I make the in saying that, I must repeat my definition point that at times Governments need to of "Progress" to ensure that I am not MIS- amend their own legislation, and this in- understood on that point. I define pro- dicates clearly that other avenues of gress in human terms. It is something expertise and of information are needed. that advances the welfare of the whole If we had a committee of parliamentary community and enables people to live members making submissions to Cabinet. better and happier lives of their own perhaps we could avoid some of these choice. If a development provides 100 jobs amendments, and fouls up the life style of the commun- Turning to conservation, this Is a most ity or the ecological balance of the area Important problem. To some extent con- with pollution, that Is not progress. servation is at the crossroads because it I think we as responsible elected repre- is discussed either In an atmosphere of sentatives should look at the past and learn emotionalism or rationally. Recently the lessons. I am going to refer In particular emotionalists have had more than their to the development period in Western Aus- fair share of the stage and an example of tralia during the 1960s. In doing so, I amn this is the so-called "special writer" in the not attacking any Government or any- Sunday Independent, On Sunday,' the thing like that; I am trying to make a 25th August, he wrote an abusive, destruc- couple of constructive comments. Consid- tive article which he was not prepared to erable benefits have accrued from these sign. developments. For example, we have im- T. Burke: Hear, hear! proved living conditions in the Isolated Mr B. north-west towns. We have an Increased Mr CARR: The whole attitude of this Industrial and economic stability and fellow Is development for development's diversity In our economy. However, con- sake; what is big must necessarily be good, siderable failings have followed this de- and what Provides more money must velopment era and this was largely due necessarily be better, or some such logic to a lack of experience. We went Into a which I am afraid I do not comprehend development era unprecedented In Western completely. Australian history. 1206 1206ASSEMBLY.)

One of the failures was that we man- This is too important an issue for political aged to receive only small returns. This parties to adopt party attitudes. It is so has been improved recently and we must important that the parties must adopt a commend the Australian Minister for Min- common approach and tackle the problem erals and Energy for his Part in this. The as one. Certainly, a parliamentary stand- second falling was that the people of West- Ig committee composed of members of all ern Australia outside the areas being parties would be one move towards that specifically developed received fairly limit- objective. ed benefits In terms of education, health. and recreation faclitles. I said a moment ago that pollution at housing one of the mhe third major falling of that develop- Kwinana was obvious. However, ment era was pollution such as, for dangers is that many pollution problems example, at Kwlnana, which of course Is are not obvious, even to the people who the obvious example. This Is a place are most closely affected by them. For where pollution not only is obvious but example, walking down the street in the also Is serious in some forms. One has central business district of Perth, I rarely only to drive down the coast road to notice notice pollution or see smog and I do not sulphur fumes in the air, and the smog generally smell petrol fumes and so on. that lies across the factories. The :air pol- However, if we talk to a group of country lution at Kwlnana Is very clear and school children who have returned to their obvious. Other forms of pollution are not classrooms after a holiday In Perth or to so obvious. In particular, I instance water people who have been to Perth only a Pollution and the effect on marine life in couple of times or who have made their Cockburn Sound which Increasingly is be- first trip to Perth they will tell us that Ing drawn to our attention by concerned they can see the smog over the City of people. Perth and how concerned they are about The problem of pollution needs exten- the petrol fumes they can smell in the sive, rational discussion and research to central business district of Perth. We must ascertain the extent of the damage and to recognise the problem that many of us take the necessary action and I believe the become accustomed to something to which committee proposed by this motion would we should not become accustomed; we be a step in that direction. Blame for should be more concerned about this what has happended at Kwlnana and other matter. polluted areas has been variously allocated. Hopefully, we have reached the stage Some people have said It was because we where the development and the environ- did not know as much about conservation mental lobbies must acknowledge each then as we do now. other people have other's existence and compromise. in 1974, said a business Government Was in office industrial and developmental at the time and was more concerned with interests development than with conservation. must consider all society when they make However, I am not particularly concerned future decisions. Some, of course, are about allocating blame for what has hap- dying hard. We have the example of Mr pened in the past. I am much more con- McNeill of the Broken Hill Proprietary cerned with developments that will take Company Limited who made that infamous place in the future. It Is a, fact that en- and disgraceful statement that he did not vironmental concern is increasing in the see that a company had any need to con- community today and has been increasing sider the social and community effects of for a number of years. I think it can its decisions. reasonably be hoped that each succeeding Mr Grayden: Who said that? Government will be more concerned with the environment and conservation than Mr CARR: The Managing Director of was Its predecessor. Certainly, this was so BliP. with the Tonkin Government which quite Mr Grayden: That is a shocking state- certainly was the most environment cons- ment I cious Governmezit this State has known and was rather more environment cons- Mr CARR: It Is a shocking statement. cious than its predecessor, the Brand Gov- Mr Grayden: I agree with you. ermnent. I seriously and sincerely hope Mr Bertram: The Premier does not that, given the three-year term it has In agree with you. office, this Government will turn out to be an even more environment conscious Gov- Mr CARR: Another example of this at- ernment than the Tonkin Government. titude dying hard is that literary lout we Mr Grayden: You can be sure of that. referred to earlier who writes in the Sunday Independent. Mr CARR: There Is nothing that would please me more than to have the Minister's Mr Bertram: Lang Hlancock! prediction take place. Ur CARR: I should like to make a Mr Grayden: That is a nice sentiment;- couple of comments In relation to environ- you just wait and see what happens. mental Impact statements. If we accept the need for rational study, We must have Mr CARR: While we are discussing environmental impact statements for all political Parties and the environment, I future developments-that Is, the prepara- should like to make one last comment, tion by competent independent authorities [Wednesday. 4 September, 19741 of a. report along prescribed guidelines Mr CARR: I am a Little concerned that of the impact upon the environment of a the Government, Instead of having Impact particular industry. These reports must be statements prepared to assist it in arriving tabled so that they can be studied and at a decision. may decide to take a half- made available to the public for discussion way step by making a decision on some and analysis, I would hope that the stand- project and then referring to a so-called ing committee proposed In this motion by report without tabling it by saying, "The the member for Morley would be instru- environmental impact statement has shown mental in drawing up guidelines for these that the project is quite all right". I amn a environmental impact statements and also little concerned about a Government that in examining those statements and making refers to reports which I would like to see tabled, but which, in fact, have not been recommendations to the Cabinet and to tabled. We have had instances where the Parliament. Minister for Police, instead of tabling a However, I am a little concerned at the report, has only alluded to it. We have attitude of the Government towards en- also beard of a report being made by a vironmental impact statements and, for Public Service inspector concerning miss- that matter, to reports generally. Last ing files, Reference has been made to this Wednesday, the Premier said that Western report, but no steps were taken to have Australian environmental impact state- it tabled. ments were of a high standard but when I hope that when the Government re- challenged by the member for Morley, the ceives impact statements on the environ- Premier could not give one example. To mental aspect of certain projects we will me, it is a matter of concern that the have tabled reports along accepted guide- Premier has such an ill-informed opinion lines. on this question. Mr A. R. Tonkin: Hear, hear! Mr Grayden: What are you talking about? What sort of example do you Mr CARR: I would like to comment on a want? couple of Bills which Parliament may be called upon to vote on sooner or later. Mr CARR, The Premier stated that For instance, I know nothing of the envi- Western Australian environmental impact ronmental implications of the Aiwest pro- statements were of a high standard but ject. All I1know is that an environmental could not quote one to support his argu- impact statement has hot been made on It, ment. That indicates to me that he is not I would hate to vote on any Bill relating too sure of his thinking on that point. to that project without being aware of the Mr Grayden: Can you think of one contents of an appropriate environmental situation where, for instance, mining com- Impact statement. panies have desecrated the countryside? Before members were asked to vote on Mr H. D. Evans: Yes, at Greenbushes. such a measure I would like to see tabled in this House an impartial, authoritative Mr Grayden: How long ago did that report along the accepted guidelines of occur? such a project, so that I could study It to Mr H. D. my own satisfaction. Of course, I would Evans: It is still going on. prefer that if an environmental impact Mr Grayden: Good gracious mel That is statement was prepared It would be refer- a skeleton in the cupboard. red to the Proposed standing committee so Mr CARR: Having dealt with the Premn- it could make a recommendation to Par- ier's comment. I would refer also to the Jament. answer given by the Minister to a. question Mr Sibson: In the 19q12 -report by the asked by the member for Morley onl the Environmental Protection Authority it is 21st August. At that time the Minister, stated that the resiting of Aiwest at Wors- when replying, said he would not have ley was in the best interests of all aspects guidelines Prepared for environmental im- relating to the project. pact statements. I hope the Minister wil Mr CARR, I appreciate the statement have a second look at this question with a made by the member for Bunbury, but at view to changing his mind on it. the same time I would not accept that as Mr Grayden: What are you talking being an environmental impact statement. about? We have guidelines already. The second example I would like to cite Mr CARR. The Minister said he would Is the Northern Mining Company which not have guidelines Prepared. proposes to erect a steelworks at Gerald- Mr Grayden: #rou know perfectly well ton. This project would be of considerable there are guidelines. benefit to the town of Geraldton, because It would give impetus to the town to de- Mr B3.T. Burke: You mean guide dogs! velop into a growth Centre. This, of course, Mr Grayderi: I do not mean anything would result in an increase in the size of SO far as You are concerned. the town which would mean that more service industries would be established The ACTING SPEAKER. (Mr Blailkie): and so the residents of Geraldton would Order! The member for Geraldton. enjoy a better lifestyle. 1208 1208ASSEMBLY3

Although it would appear to a layman members are concerned that the Australian like myself that such a Project would Government will take aver and make all Probably not harnm the environment, that decisions on the environment. We do not is not good enough. Before the agreement want this to happen and so we must show for such a project comes to this Parlia- that we can handle capably this question ment for ratification an environmental ourselves. impact survey would have to be made along Mr Stephens: I am pleased to hear You accepted guidelines. say that you do not want the Common- Mr Laurance: The finance would have to wealth Government to take it over. be found, too. Mr CARR: If we cannot handle the en- Mr CARR: I think the cash could be vironment ourselves, I would like to see the provided for an environmental impact star- Australian Government take it over. vey to be carried out. The Northern Min- ing Company has been negotiating with Mr Stephens: We have certainly per- Robe River Limited for Australian finance, formed a better job of handling it than and I have been led to believe that the the Commonwealth is doing in handling Prospects for this project are quite good. the question of keeping our north-west Mr Skidmore: Why don't we take steps coast clear of Indonesians. like they have in the United States of Mr Jamnieson: They have been landing America? Before any industry becomes es- on that coast for centuries. tablished in that country steps are taken (Mr Blailie): to ensure that pollution will not occur. I The ACTING SPEAKER understand that one steelworks project Order! The member for Geraldton. spent something like $3.5 million on such Mr CA.RR: I would like to draw the work. attention of the Howse to the major tasks Mr CARR: I would now like to put which I consider would fall to the lot forward a number of points to show that a of a standing committee. One of its tasks standing committee should be appointed so would be to prepare guidelines for all im- that it could meet to discuss this par- Pact statements. Also, committee reports ticular issue specifically. The first point I on such statements would have to be con- make is that the subject is of a technical sidered by the House before any legisla- and complicated nature. I think all mem- tion was introduced. Another of the tasks bers have noted the questions that have of the committee would be to scrutinise all been asked in this House over the last legislation that comes before the House in month or so by the member for Morley, order that a decision could be made on and the answers that have been given to the environmental implications. I have some of them. The information we have mentioned the possibility that members gained is sufficient to show that they are may be required to vote on legislation that complicated issues, and I think all mem- is Introduced for the establishment of the bers will agree that there are no experts on the Alwest project in the future. This type the subject of environment in this House. of Project would be considered by the Mr Stephens: You are going to set your- standing committee before the legislation self up In order to direct the experts, are was passed by Parliament. you? Another example of legislation that Mr CARR: If a standing committee were could be considered by the standing com- appointed, we would have five or six mem- mittee would be the Kwinana Freeway ex- bers of this House who would be better tension. If it were decided to proceed with informed to debate environmental Issues. that proposal the standing committee would have to review the environmental The second Point, of course, Is the ques- implications. It would investigate any tion of giving attention to environmental matters referred to it by the House. The matters while Parliament Is not sitting. House could, at any time, decide that the Consideration of such matters by a stand- committee should consider the guidelines Ing committee would also help to ensure for, say, new national parks, or new his- that correct decisions are made by repre- torical museums. The committee would sesentatives of the people on environ- Investigate any matter brought to the mental matters. I said a while ago that too attention of its members. It could also many decisions are made by bureaucrats. consider matters that were brought rf a standing committee were appointed. to its attention by the public. For ex- the Parliament would have the benefit of ample. it could be called upon to consider the knowledge gained by members of that such questions as: What is happening to committee. The members of the standing the Swan River or Cockburn Bound? committee would gain that expertise by specialising in the subject of environment In conclusion, I make the plea that this and therefore they could usefully contri- issue is too important to ignore; I consider it is too important to consider emotionally, bute to any debates on this topic. and I believe the House should establish lately, some concern has been expressed machinery for the rational consideration that the Commonwealth Government has of the problem of conservation and the shown considerable Interest in the subject environment by appointing a standing of the environment, and I know that some committee. [Wednesday, 4 September, 19741 120910

MR DAVIES (Victoria Park) [9.39 p.m.]: That is very different from the attitude I congratulate the member who has just adopted by the Government when it was sat down for making a very fine speech. given the opportunity not so long ago to He has given the matter a. great deal of appoint a Select Committee. On this oc- thought and I am sure no-one would doubt casion the Premier decided that although how genuine he is when he considers that the Press might have put its finger on a this very important matter Is sometimes point, there was no need to appoint a given too scant consideration by too few Select Committee because the Opposition people within the community. had generated some antagonism towards I have to admire the consistency of the the Government's legislation. Here again member for Morley in bringing forward we have the Government adopting a double once again the need for the establishment standard. of parliamentary committees. During the If the present Government goes down In last session of Parliament he did acme very history as being famous for anything, it commendable work in promoting this idea, will be as being famous for adopting double and he brought down a good report. standards. in the debate in 1973 the then By the same token, I cannot congratulate Leader of the Opposition pointed out that the Minister on his scant reply to the we could always have a Select Committee; motion, because he dealt with this matter however, when there was an opportunity very superficially. He said we should be and a need to appoint one he did not take satisfied with what we have; that we should advantage of the opportunity. The fact is not rock the boat: and that we should not that the Government will take whatever stick our noses into environmental pro- stand it needs to take on a question, ac- tection matters, and least of all should the cording to how it feels at the time. Parliament do this. To be fair, he stopped short of saying that, but he made it quite I believe that questions affecting environ- clear this was no business of Parliament. mental protection are important; but if anything has to go then as far as this I was rather surprised at the Minister's Government is concerned environmental attitude. I thought that in accordance with protection will go. We have only to look at Its policy speech enunciated before the last the Government's record to realise this. it election the present Government would is true that a Government of the political promote open government, and would wel- complexion of the Present Government was come this type of parliamentary committee the first to introduce legislation dealing which should have very wide investigatory with environmental protection, but the powers and could prove to be of great legislation was not in that name. it was benefit not only to Parliament as a whole, curiously named. However, that Govern- but to the people of the State. and in ment did establish a department1 and ap- particular to the department under 'whose pointed a highly respected and very guidance environmental matters are gov- talented Director of Environmental Pro- erned. I was particularly surprised at the tection. He is a person for whom I have Minister's comments, especially when we the greatest admiration. consider the remarks that were made last year when the question of the establish- The Act under which the director had to ment of parliamentary committees was work was tremendously limiting in its under discussion. powers, and we as the succeeding Govern- The Premier, who was then the Leader ment had to pass an amending Bill which of the opposition, participated in the greatly expanded those powers, much to debate on that motion and his remarks are our chagrin in one later instance. How- of the 1973 ever, we did that. In matters concerning recorded at page 2109 Mansard. environmental protection, everything else H-e referred to the protection which people becomes secondary; and no stone should had from Parliament, and drew attention be left unturned to make certain that the 'to the fact that matters cannot be kept Powers ite where they should lie. private without the Press taking them up. He seemed to think this was a good fea- We as the Previous Government com- ture, and I agree with him. He went on mitted a grave omission in amending the to say- Act. We did not try to make the legisla- I must add that in the main the tion retrospective in respect of the need media has the happy knack of putting for industries, particularly those established its finger on items of crucial public at Cockburn Sound, to comply with direc- interest. When something contentious tions. The then Government as much as the arises, it is not too long before some- then Opposition was to blame for this, be- one is on the phone, appearing at our cause we as the Government accepted the door, or writing letters to us. amendment Put forward by the Opposition. The then Leader of the Opposition made The Government decided that it would not the point that we could always appoint a make the legislation retrospective; that Select Committee, a parliamentary com- the agreements which had been made mittee, or a Royal Commission to Inquire should stand; and the Act forthwith should into a particular matter on which the have no application to established indus- Press had put its finger. tries. 1210 1210ASSEMBLY.]

Mr Grayden: You know Perfectly well Mr Stephens: Do you agree that the that all parties have equal concern for Premiantle Port Authority might have the protection of the environment. It Is some power in this regard? only in recent years that the people have Mr DAVIES: I agree it could try, but become concerned with the environment. there is no power under the Act for action Mr DAVIES: I made that point some to be taken. timne ago, but nlow I am dealing with another matter. I regret the Minister Mr Stephens: That is, under the En- has not caught up with me. The Point I vironmental Protection Act. now make is that we, as the previous Mr DAVIES: I am not talkig about the Government, made a bad omission in Environmental Protection Act, but about amending the Act, and we were as much the deletion of a clause which the Gov- to blame for this as was the Opposition ernment in 1971 accepted. I cannot give on that occasion, because we accepted the Minister a recipe for afternoon tea without any debate the deletion of a biscuits or anything like that, but I would clause which had the effect of exempting ask him to listen to what I am saying and the Environmental Protection Act from ex- not attempt to put me off the track. isting agreements. The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Blaikie): Because we failed to make the Act ap- Wtill the honourable member address the plicable to existing agreements at that Chair? time, the companies now can thumb their noses at the Government if they so desire. Mr DAVIES: The fact is the company I am not saying the companies are doing has been discharging gypsum into Cock- that:, all I am saying is they are not mak- burn Sound for several years. Many people ing the effort they could have made if are worrying about this, but it seems no- we had the whip hand aver them, to clean one can do anything, although efforts are up some aspects of the pollution of the being made to get the company to co- environment, I refer to what is being operate with the Fremnantle Port Authority, discharged into Cockburn Sound; in par- Mr Jamieson: It is doing that under the ticular to the discharge of gypsum. If the agreement. amendment to the Act to which I have Mr DAVIES: We are getting back to this made reference had not been accepted point, but the Minister will fix It up for by us as the Government, today we would us. When he does, I will give him three be able to do something to prevent such cheers, because it Is of great importance discharge- to everyone concerned about the future Mr Stephens: I think in that regard of Cockburn Sound. Enough reports on you are wrong. I have answered a ques- the sound have been made over the years. tion along that line. The, matter is being Let us study the function of the corn- Investigated. mittee and the experience we have had Mr DAVIES: If the Minister had been with those appointed. Of course, Select listening closely he would have heard me Committees have operated from time to say that the company concerned is try- time and have achieved their objectives ing to do something about the discharge within the ambit of their powers, but a of gypsum, but I do not think it Is Select Committee is charged with the duty moving as fast as it would move if we to look Into one subject only. It does not had something with which to prod it along. have any wide-sweeping powers such as The fact is we have nothing with which to has the Public Accounts Committee which prod it along. The Act does, not apply to has operated successfully for something that company, and it enables the company like two years. Although I am not certain to do what it likes in accordance with the of the date on which it was appointed, I terms of its agreement. This provides for think that it was some time In 1971 that the discharge of gypsum into Cockburn it first operated. That committee is not Sound. If we had something with which to directed to inquire into any particular prod the company it might be able to find aspect of government air any specific Item. a solution. Of its own motion it can inquire Into The discharge of gypsum into Cockburn matters under its charter or alternatively Sound has been going on for several years, it can inquire into matters as a result of and it is a matter of great concern to a motion in the House. This is the first everyone who cares for the future of Cock- great difference between a Select Coin- burn Sound. Probably, it is also of con- nmittee and a standing committee. A stand- cern to the minister, but the fact is he Ing committee can receive its directions has no power under the Act to stop the in two ways and It has wide-sweeping company from discharging gypsum. If powers. he has the power will he tell us, so that The Public Accounts Committee has I can press for the power to be applied? worked very well. It was agreed to by the I repeat it was a bad mistake that we Previous Government rather reluctantly I as the Government made In 1971; and for thought, but that was one of its better this the Government as much as the Op- decisions. Although Its establishment was position is to blame in accepting the agreed to reluctantly, no-one can say it amendment. has been an Interfering busybody. in fact, [Wednesday, 4 September, 1974] 1211 everyone. including myself who, as a AMn- Its function Is set out in a book published ister, had experience of It, would say that In 1971 and headed, Standing Orders of it has been a very efficient committee. For the Legislative Assembly. This sets out various reasons Its personnel changes fairly the ambit of Its duties and the method by often, but there has been a continuing which it can operate which Is under the sequence of members who have been able Select Committee system. A close analogy to pass qn the knowledge gamned previously. exists between Select Committees and It has submitted 10 reports, none of them parliamentary standing committees; but big, but all dealing with matters of Im- the fact remains that there is that one portance. great difference In that the standing com- mittee can initiate action of Its own accord As Minister I was very pleased that the without being directed by Parliament. Public Accounts Committee was able to although it still can be directed by Parlia- study the question of the Government ment. Health Laboratories. I am only sorry that it I do not know how many members have did not occur to me to refer the matter to read the reports of the Public Accounts the committee before I1 entered into the Commnittee. I must confess that before agreement, because I was not happy about this motion was moved I had read only It at the time. The fact remains that the four of them, but they are well worth Public Accounts Committee did deal with studying to appreciate how concise they the subject and submitted recommenda- are and how they omilt any unnecessary tions which gave me the Impetus I needed verbiage. They get to the point of the to have the matter inquired into. Al- problem very quickly. I do not know just though it has not yet been drawn to a how long it takes, but the report indicates successful conclusion, we are much closer that It is fairly quickly. After it has made to achieving the Integration of the labora- its recommendations It is then up to the tories than we were before the committee Government to take any necessary action. made Its inquiry. I was grateful to have When replying last week, the Minister Its help and, as I have said, I only wish was at great Pains to explain how the I had thought of referring the matter to member for Morley had not dealt with a It myself beforehand. committee on the environment In the re- The committee has, of course, dealt with port of the Select Committee on the other items too. I know it has In~quired Parliamentary committee system which was Into methods of accounting on which the established last year. The Minister said Auditor-General reported. These involved that the action the honourable member matters under my control at one time and has taken on this occasion demonstrates the procedure adopted had been followed his inconsistency. The Minister seemed to for years. Apparently on a number of oc- believe that because that report contained casions the procedure had been queried, no recommendations concerning an en- but nothing had been done about It be- vironmental protection committee, a need cause. with the pressure of work, it had did not exist for one. not been considered Important and had Mr Stephens: I did not say that. been overlooked. The Public Accounts Com- mittee noted the criticism In the Auditor- Mr DAVIES: The Minister implied It. General's report and spoke to the people Mr Stephens: Not in that way. I made who were able to give it good advice. As a the point that last year he thought of all result the committee ascertained that in the committees necessary. I think there one Instance the criticism was not Justified, were five of them, but he did not include while in the other It was believed the ac- anything to do with environmental pro- counting methods could be greatly Im- tection. Now, 10 months later, he wants proved. an environmental protection committee. So, from the two experiences I as Min- His Priorities have altered. ister had of the committee I was grate- Mr A. R. Tonkin: That was a Select ful it had been established. I do not regard Committee of which I was only a member. It as an interfering busybody, but as a very Mr Stephens: I am sorry you misunder- responsible committee of Parliament which was able to do some work for me for which stood the point I made. I either did not have the time or was too Mr DAVIES: I am glad the Minister lazy to do myself. interjected because he is saying exactly what I stated he said. He seems to think We can request the committee to inquire that It is a terrible thing that he took no into matters particularly relating to the action then, but now feels that It Is Estimates, Public accounts, and so on. We important to have an environmental can do this by way of a motion or we can committee. The Select Committee report ask one of our members on the committee reads- to suggest that It would be a good thing to inquire into a certain item. It Is Therefore, we recommend that there functioning well and has submitted various should be five such Committees. reports. No arguments have occurred . it (a) One should be the Public Is fortunate that it has a good secretary, Accounts Committee (already our Sergeant-at-Arms, who has kept its existing). work flowing and as a result the committee (b) Another, a Subordinate Legis- has a Very high standing In Parliament. lation Committee. 1212 121(ASSEMBLY.]

if I had a choice I would rather have a * Mr DAVIES: The fact remains that no subordinate legislation committee than an action has been taken on the report and, environmental committee, but that is not despite the emphasis on open government, the subject under discussion. The report we do not expect any action to be taken continues-- because there was a minority report from Because of the changing legislative the member for Scarborough, the Minister emphases, the Select Committee hesi- for Mines, and other members. I am sorry, tates to prescribe the areas to be I do the member for Scarborough wrong. dealt with, but suggests the follow- Mr Stephens: As I said earlier, the lng- member cannot read. (c) Development and Works Com- Mr DAVIES: The reference was not to mittee. Mr Rt. L. Young, but to Mr W. G. (d) Education and Community Young, and we know what happened to Affairs Committee. him. The other minority report was Ce) Rural and Local Government from the present Minister for Mines and Committee. we know what he thinks about open gov- It is because of those recommendations ernment. We have seen him in action and that the Minister seemed to think it was when given an opportunity to prove what terrible that the member for Morley had he stands for he certainly does not deal not mentioned at that stage the need for with open government. an environmental protection committee. If the Government desired to act in this However, the Minister then adopted an regard it could have appointed a develop- old trick. I would like to give some advice ment and works committee because I am to the new members, although from what sure such a parliamentary standing com- I have heard from members opposite I am mittee could find plenty to inquire into, convinced they know all the tricks. How- with regard to environmental matters. ever, I advise them to research if anyone If a committee is to inquire into public quotes something. They should always works it will also inquire into the environ- obtain the quote and see what was omitted, ment because public works will affect the because in this ease the Minister omitted environment. an important paragraph which reads- I have been invited to deal with the However, It Is likely that this sug- speech made by the Minister when he gested arrangement will be varied replied to the debate, and I have two or from time to time according to the three matters to which I will refer. At changing needs of Parliament. the commencement of his speech he went I think that Is Important. The honourable off at a tangent and raised false hopes in member may have felt that way at the me when he said- tine, but members should keep In mind I-'support the contention that we that that was. a majority report and he should keep Parliament fully informed, probably went along with the majority. and also that we support the involve- The minority report said parliamentary ment of the public in our decision- standing committees should not exist, al- making. though it is not specifically stated in those Of course, a parliamentary standing com- terms. mittee would be an excellent avenue through which to keep the public informed, Mr Stephens: The member is not being and through which to involve the public. fair to me because if he reads my speech However, as 1 have said, we have already he will see that before I could make that seen examples in this House of the reluct- point the member for Mundaring butted ance of the Government really to do this. in and beat me to the point. I became more disappointed as the Mr DAVIES: I am sorry but the Minis- Minister continued his speech because he ter did not tell me he was going to make brought up the same old arguments which the point before the member for Mundar- we have heard previously: One has his ing butted in- I cannot read the Minister's democratic rights;, one can rely on the mind. newspapers; one can bring matters up in Mr Stephens: I do not ask the member Parliament: and one can have aLCommittee to read my mind, but to read my speech. of the Whole House. As a matter of fact, he said that if a Bill is introduced a Mr DAVIES: I have read the Minister's member has the opportunity to contact speech and I intend to quote a few sections people actively concerned in the area relat- from it. I did not know what the Minister ing to the subject matter of the proposed was going to say. Goodness only knows Bill. He said this research usually enables what he intended to say but perhaps I a member to obtain a, wealth of practical should ask the member for Mundaring not experience. to interrupt because he spoils a good train When a Bill is introduced it might be of thought! debated three, four, five, or 10 days later. Mr Stephens* He did not spoil a train Does the Minister suggest that during that of thought at all; he was over-anxious. time one can obtain a wealth of experience, [Wednesday. 4 September, 19741 1213

and not only a wealth of experience, but a forward and give advice? Could we ask wealth of practical experience? One can- departmental officers to get out of bed and not obtain that kind of information in come to Parliament to give advice? such a short time; by going to others and Mr Orayden: How many times has 1.h3 suddenly finding that he is qualified and member asked the House to resolve itself has obtained a wealth of practical experi- Into a Committee of the Whole? ee. The Minister went on to state- Mr DAVIES: The Minister and I seem Also, of course, there are the special- to agree tonight. It is very true that oil ists who may be involved in the ad- many occasions I have asked the House ministration of that type of legislation to resolve itself into a Committee of the and approaches can be made to these Whole. However, I am once again ahead people. I have always found them to of the Minister because I am now asking be most helpful and co-operative in what such a committee would be able to outlining the various problems that do. Could It call people before it to give may be associated with this particular evidence? Could it question departmental industry or that particular field. I officers? Could it call in outsiders to give also found that if an approach were advice? We cannot ask the Under- made to the various departmental Treasurer, or the Director of Environ- officers they would be co-operative in mental Protection, to come to the House advancing the technical type of in- because we are discussing a certain mat- formation that sometimes is required. ter, and then tell him that after dealing Of course, if one is dealing with technical with that matter in general debate we information one needs somebody to assist might want some information from him in assessing that Information. I know when we dissolve into a Committee of the that I have been bamboozled at times by Wh ol1e. some of the questions asked by the member To suggest that a Committee of the for Morley. I thought I had a good gen- Whole is In any way comparable to a Select eral knowledge but some of those questions Committee or a parliamentary standing have been above my head. committee is utter rubbish, and nothing else. They are not comparable or com- Mr McPharlln: The member must have patible in any way. The word "committee' been reading some books. is the only thing In common. Mr DAVIES: No, I do not do that; that Mr Grayden: Nonsense. Members have Is dangerous! The Deputy Premier should all the opportunity in the world to discuss know that reading books is dangerous. matters while In Committee. Mr Grayden: What about files? Mr DAVIES: If a Committee of tPhe Whole could call officers before the House. Mr DAVIES: Or files! The fact remains question them, seek advice from them, and that if one has an entree to a department then send them away and ask them to one can pick up some information here return when required, I would agree. and there. I can recall that last year Mr Grayden: You are saying 81 mem- you, Mr Speaker, wrote to the Swan River bers of Parliament can be brushed aside Conservation Board seeking information and a committee of five is of much more on legislation dealing with waterways. You received some very good advice from the consequence? officers concerned. That can be done on Mr DAVIES: I am saying the committee some occasions but there is also a reluct- would seek expert advice and do for me ance on the part of some departmental that which I am either incompetent or officers to talk to Opposition members. too lazy to do, or have not time to do- That is understandable because an officer and time is one of the main reasons. working under a vicious departmental The Minister also said- head, or a vicious Minister, could find himself in serious trouble. He could be -the Labor Party has always con- charged with giving away official secrets. tended that its legislation is best. We know what can happen in such a case, I mentioned that earlier. He went on to with the police being called in and all deal with the Powers of the Environmental kinds of inquiries being made. I do not Protection Authority. These are very think it is fair to say that we have this wide; with the exception of the one I men- entr~e as suggested by the Minister. Even tioned, but the authority can and does though we might have the entr~e, we do appoint all kinds of conmnittees. not always have the time or the capacity The Minister spoke about the Committee to assess the technical Information which for Understanding the Environment-CUE may be required. --of which Miss M. Knowles is Chair- The Minister went on to say that In his man and Sir Thomas Wardle a member. opinion the House can work quite effec- and which is doing a very good Job. It tively as a Committee of the Whole. How is not an inquiring committee; it is an does the occasion arise for it to work as educational committee. The Minister a Committee of the Whole? Are we now cited this as one of the committees of in- working as a Committee of the Whole? quiry which could help us here. CUE was Could we now call on people to aome not meant to search out and advise. It 1214 114[ASSEMB3LY.]

was meant to educate and was not created died and he was naturally distessed, and for a Particular reason. There are plenty I thought he might Quit at that time; of other subcommittees--as far as I am thankfully, he did not. Dr O'Brien carries concerned, there are too many of them. the weight of the Whole department. Mr Stephens: So you want to increase These People are already overloaded. the number? and this Is another reason why many Matters could be dealt with by a6 parlia- Mr DAVIES: Dr O'Brien does not mentary committee, which would give the govern Parliament. The Speaker is in back-benchers who are Interested in this charge of Parliament. The fact remains subject an opportunity to do some re- that Dr O'Brien's department is grossly search, talk to people, and direct their overworked. I could be to blame for that inquiries to a specific question. It is all because as Minister I tried to keep it a very well to say they can do this as single very small department. I checked up on individuals but one does not have the the Estimates for last year and found the same incentive to do things as when one staff numbered 13 and there was to be is working with a committee. This is the no Increase in 1973-74. When I was type of matter where the committee sys- Minister I adopted the attitude that in- tem is invaluable. But the House as a quiries which needed to be made should whole must agree that the committee be made, generally, by outside bodies and system be used. that we should go to the best sources available for a particular point of view. I have made the point that if an in- We should go to private consultants or to dividual member wants to inform himself universities; or, if the best sources are he can do so by reading books and litera- within Government itself, we should go to ture which are available at the depart- the Government. That is why the de- ment. I think it was Disraeli who Maid partment has been kept very tight and Young members should specialise. close-knit. The Minister said- I think it is a very good policy. It may be a little more expensive for a one-up I cannot see how a standing com- report on a subject from a priyate entre- mittee comprising members of this preneur, but it is much cheaper than try- House, irrespective of how well inten- ing to keep specialists in the various fields tioned it might be, will substantially under the control of the Government. This improve the situation so far as con- is another reason that Dr O'Brien is servation and the environment are weighed down with all kinds of inquiries. concerned. At one time I think he had between 20 and 30 separate inquiries going ait the There are very many aspects of environ- one time. ment and it is a very important facet of life these days. It is important enough The Minister then made mention of the for the United Nations to have held a work done by the Environmental Protec- world conference on it. We cannot pos- tion Authority, which comprises three very sibly appoint enough committees to in- highly-qualified, very capable, and, most quire into all the matters that need to be importantly, very busy men. Dr O'Brien inquired into. is the chairman. Phil Adams, a lawyer well known to the Liberal Party, is a very The fact remains the department is competent member. Professor Main. the doing as much as it can. I do not see other member, is in the air more often how we can escape expanding the depart- than on the ground. I do not say that ment. It already has too many committees disrespectfully. with which it is trying to gather together all the strings and relate them to each Mr Hartrey: So is the Opposition. other. I believe It Is using to the best Mr Stephens: You are dead right. advantage the available expertise. By the same token, there are many avenues for Mr Grayden: So is the member for Kal- which it would not be worth setting up a goorlie. special outside committee to consider, yet Mr DAVIES: The fact remains that they could be considered by a parliamen- Professor Main's expertise is so highly tary committee which could advise the regarded throughout Australia that he is Government and, more importantly, the constantly commuting between Pert and Parliament about what needs to be done. the Eastern States. By the same token. The SPEAKER: The honourable mem- he does an excellent Job as a member of ber has five minutes more. the Environmental Protection Authority. I think we are very lucky to have those Mr DAVIES: It requires the will of the three excellent People. I was almost afraid whole Parliament to make the parlia- Professor Main would say this was one mentary committee system work. Des- of his less important Jobs and he would pite what the Minister for Labour says. I like to resign from the authority, but I cannot help feeling that the concern of am very Pleased he has remained there. the present Government for the environ - Mr Adams had some sadness when his wife ment is not as great as it should be. (Tursday, 5 September, 1974] 1215

I cannot help but feel that in times of (3) What quantity of margarine was economic hardship if costs are to be imported into Western Australia pruned, the first department to be affected from other States in the latest will be the Department of Environmental statistical period for which figures Protection. are available? I congratulate the member for Morley The Hon. N. McNEILLT replied: an his research, and the matters be has (1) The quota for table margarine Is raised in the House. By the same token I 1 423 tonnes. There is no quota express the fear that as far as this Govern- for cooking or manufacturing ment is concerned, environmental protec- margarine. tion is expendable, otherwise it would have supported the motion. (2) The quantity of table margarine produced in 1973 was 1 422.96 Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr tonnes. No cooking or manufac- Young. turing margarine Is produced. House adjourned at 10.21 p. (3) 753 tonnes of table margarine In 1972-73 and 979 tonnes in 1971-72. 2 242 tonnes of cooking or manu- facturing margarine was also im- ported in 1971-72. Figures for I-rgilati Tnunrii 1972-73 are not available. Thursday, the 5th September, 1974 3. FUEL, ENERGY AND POWER RESOURCES LEGISLATION The PRESIDENT (the Hon. A. F. TLC Meeting Griffith) took the Chair at 2.30 p.m., and The Hon. V. J. Perry for the Hon. read Prayers. W. Rt. WITHERS, to the Minister for Justice: QUESTIONS (6): ON NOTICE (1) Has a Cabinet Minister or any 1. MARGARINE Informed Government officer been invited to address the Trades and Ingredients: Labelling Labor Council on the 5th Sep- The Hon. R. F. CLAtJGHTON, to the tember at the meeting advertised Minister for Justice: as "Law of the Jackboot" on page Do Western Australian labelling 35 of The West Australian news- regulations for margarine require paper dated the 4th September, a precise statement of ingredients 1974? and whether animal or vegetable (2) (a) Tf so, who will be in attend- fats are used? ance; The Hon. N. McNEfLL replied: (b) if the answer to (1) is "No" Labelling regulations for marga- who will explain the amended rine do not require a precise stte- Bill to the trade union re- ment of all ingredients. Howeer, presentatives so that misinter- be co- pretations expressed by the table margarine must Secretary of the Trades and posed of vegetable oils only. Labor Council in the adverti- Cooking margarine must contain sement may be corrected? over 90% of total animal fats and animal Oils such as beef fat The Hon. N. McNEILL replied: and/or mutton fat. (1) No, not to my knowledge. Manufacturing margarine must (2) (a) Answered by (1). contain '75% to 90% of total (b) Presumably no-one. If only animal fats and animal oils such opponents of the Bill are as beef fat and/or mutton fat. invited and will be present, A statement to this effect must be the meeting will be used to printed on each package contain- air only one-sided views and ing cooking or manufacturing on Past experience--having margarine. also regard to the adver- tisement to which the Hon. 2. MARGARINE Member has referred-it will Quota and Imports be a Propaganda campaign- based on misrepresentation- The Hon. Rt. P. CLAUGHTON, to the The Hon. Minister for Justice: R. Thompson: H-ow do you know? (1) What is the Western Australian The PRESIDENT: It Is hardly fair for quota for margarine manufacture? the honourable member to inter- (2) What is the actual quantity manu- ject whilst the Minister is answer- factured in this State? ing a question.