First Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

Official Report (Hansard)

Published under the authorityof The Honourable George Hickes Speaker

Vol. L No. 58- 1:30 p.m., Monday, July 10, 2000 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature

Member Constituency Political Affiliation

AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve. Hon. Thompson N.D.P. ASPER, Linda Riel N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky, Hon. Inkster N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose PC. DACQUA Y, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILMON, Gary Tuxedo PC. FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. Wolseley N.D P Lib. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli PC. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D P KORZENIOWSKI. Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. N.D.P LAURENDEAU,Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye 1\/.D.P. LOEWEN, John P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY,Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON. Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER, Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Joy Fort Garry P.C. SMITH, Scott Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON. Eric Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P. 371 1

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, July 10, 2000

The House met at 1:30 p.m. Expenditure Estimates for the Manitoba Status of Women. PRAYERS ORAL QUESTION PERIOD ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Government of Manitoba PRESENTING REPORTS BY Respect for the Law STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of Committee of Supply the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is fo r the First Minister, and I am not Mr. Conrad Santos (Chairperson): Mr. sure where I begin. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same Under the leadership or lack thereof, the an d asks leave to sit again. First Minister, over the last nine months, has proven that Today's NDP is just like yesterday's I move, seconded by the Honourable NDP. We are seeing this fo llow in the Member fo r Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report fo otsteps of his mentor, , and we of the Committee be received. all know what happened to Howard Pawley. Specifically, under this Premier's leadership, we Motion agreed to. have seen staff break the law, and he has done nothing about it. TABLING OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker, we have seen under his Hon. (Minister of Finance): leadership a fiasco created in the aboriginal would like to table the 2000-2001 Revenue casino issue, which has done a disservice not Estimates Supplementary Information for Legis­ only to aboriginals but to all Manitobans. Under lative Review fo r the Department of Finance. his leadership, he has embarrassed his own Minister responsible for Gaming (Mr. Lemieux), Hon. (Minister of Health): Mr. and he has had to resign. Under his leadership, Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary we have seen a new minister appointed for Information fo r Legislative Review of 2000- gaming, who has public opinions, has stated time 2001 for Community Support Programs; and in and time again that he is opposed to gambling. addition, I would like to table the Supplementary Under his leadership, he has allowed his Information for Legislative Review 2000-2001 Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) to break Departmental Expenditure Estimates fo r Sport. the law and then to break his commitments to Manitobans by not allowing for consultation Hon. (Minister of Conser­ regarding Bill 5. vation): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 2000-2001 Department Expenditure Estimates Under his leadership, Mr. Speaker, we have fo r the Department of Conservation. seen very regressive labour legislation intro­ duced that has said to small business owners in Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister responsible Manitoba that Manitoba is closed fo r business. fo r the Status of Women): Mr. Speaker, I am Under this Premier's leadership, we have seen, in pleased to table the 2000-2001 Departmental the first budget, that Manitobans now have the 3712 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 distinction of being the highest taxed citizens Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We came across the country. forward with five commitments. We are continuing to implement those five commitments Mr. Speaker, under this Premier's leader­ for the people of Manitoba. The fe edback we ship, he has allowed his Minister of Education have is obviously from the public of Manitoba: (Mr. Caldwell) to create anxiety and "Stay the course," unlike the previous apprehension in the education system by, government, "keep your promises." We plan on without consultation, threatening forced amal­ keeping our promises. We are working on gamation on school divisions. Under this keeping our promises, and we are very delighted, Premier's leadership, we have seen his Minister in spite of the criticisms of the members of Health (Mr. Chomiak) break election opposite, to see, on Friday, a 4.4 percent promises that he made. unemployment rate. We think that is in the right direction. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mrs. Mitchelson: The First Minister certainly has taken no responsibility with that answer. Mr. Speaker: Order. Apology Request Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, for calling members of the Government Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of to order. These are very important and very the Official Opposition): Quite frankly. the serious issues, and I would hope that they would arrogance that is displayed by this Premier want to listen very carefully to the comments speaks to his governmentand his actions. that are being made, because Manitobans are concerned. My question for the Premier is: Given that he is the First Minister of this province and has * (13:35) responsibility fo r managing the affairs of this province and showing some leadership, will he Under this Premier's leadership, we also­ apologize to Manitobans for the arrogance that this will be my last point, Mr. Speaker-have they have displayed and the lack of leadership seen no assistance whatsoever to Manitoba farm that he has shown? fam ilies that were devastated in 1999.

Hon. (Premier): Mr. Speaker, this I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Doer): is a government that keeps in tune with the When will he, his ministers and his staff begin to people of this province, works tirelessly on their show some respect for the laws of this province behalf. We will ensure that the policies that we and for the citizens of Manitoba? develop are consistent with the hopes, desires, dreams of Manitoba fam ilies around the Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the community clubs of Manitoba, not around the people of Manitoba showed respect fo r the law Manitoba Club. and the outcome of the Monin inquiry when they changed the Government on September 21. The Government of Manitoba people of Manitoba are appalled to hear that Respect fo r the Law members opposite, who promised us a new regime of ethics, are back in alleged glue again Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of with what has happened again allegedly in the the Official Opposition): Well, Mr. Speaker, Interlake, and we await the final report of the again, I am sure that Manitobans do not agree Chief Electoral Officer. that this government is keeping in line with the wishes of Manitobans when they continually Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. flout and break the law, when we have seen a minister of this Crown have to resign fo r the first Mr. Speaker: Order. time in over a decade, for the firsttime - July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3713

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Agricultural Disaster Assistance Cost-Sharing Program

Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to welcome back the Minister Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you very much, Mr. of Agriculture from her trip to negotiate a new Speaker. We all know that there has not been a safety net program for farmers in western minister in this province that has had to resign . I understand that she and her colleagues since this Premier sat around the Cabinet table met in the Maritimes, and they came up with a with his mentor Howard Pawley. new agreement. I was wondering whether the Minister would be able to inform this House as to the specifics ofthe enhanced agreement that I would ask this First Minister, this Premier, she has negotiated for farmers in this province. this leader of our province: Given that he has already flouted the laws and broken the laws in Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of this province, will he guarantee to Manitobans Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, the today that into the future he will no longer Member is correct. I have just come back from continue to portray this arrogant attitude and signing a framework agreement with the other continue to break the laws? ministers of Agriculture across the country, but the details of the agreement and the funding Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, formula for the agreement were made available telling the truth is very important, and one of the to the public in March when we indicated at that reasons members opposite found themselves in time that we were changing to a new funding such difficulty is, when they came forward with formula, not at the request of Manitobans but at their so-called 50-50 plan, over 50 percent of the request of other provinces. Our level of Manitobans did not believe them anymore. I funding will be maintained for the next three want to correct a number of inaccuracies from years, and we will be having a review of the the Member opposite. One is, when the previous program afterthe next three years. Minister of Finance had some questions about family relationships with the Linnet file, the file Funding is the same as it used to be. was moved to another minister. We thought that Unfortunately, other provinces will have an that made sense. The Minister was still a increase in their funding and be able to offer member of cabinet. more enhancements in their programs than we will be here in Manitoba because the previous government began the process of negotiating to * (13:40) have our fu nding formula changed to having our funding based on cash receipts rather than risk, This minister is still a member of cabinet. Mr. Speaker. The federal government agreed That is a factual error that the Member opposite with that formula. does not recognize. We also thought that when the Minister of Finance and a family member Mr. Jack Penner: I would like to ask the held the golden share and there was a huge, huge Minister, Mr. Speaker, whether she could opportunity fo r pecuniary gain fo r individuals confirm that Quebec received a 38% increase in because of the stock option to board members their funding for their farm income, that Ontario that were appointed by the previous government, received a 28% increase in their funding for their there should have been a separation of those farm program, and that British Columbia responsibilities. We are very, very consistent in received a 92% increase in their program. Could what we are saying, and we are very confident the Minister tell us what the increase in funding that we are not perfect but working tirelessly on to Manitoba farmers will be? behalf of the people of Manitoba. Our leadership candidates do not get fixed in the Manitoba Club Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, we spent over 50 and have no ballot to them, an undemocratic hours in discussion in Agriculture Estimates. organization, as members opposite. This issue was raised many times, and we 3714 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 discussed it with the Member. I indicated to him We are not going to be able to offe r the very clearly that was one of the very serious kinds of enhancements that other provinces will, problems with the negotiations and moving and that part of it is not fair. towards fu nding based on cash receipts rather than on risk. As a result, other provinces will get First Nations Casinos a lot more money. Manitoba's fu nding was Moratorium supposed to drop by $10 million. We were able to maintain that level of funding. There is no Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker. increase fo r Manitoba. a new medical report published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal calls for a nation­ He should talk to the previous Minister of wide moratorium on gambling expansion Agriculture because he is the one who was also because of its addictive nature, especially fo r in those negotiations where the move started Aboriginals. The report. authored by Dr. David towards fu nding based on cash receipts rather Korn, states that Aboriginals, women. young than on risk. people and cultural minorities run the greatest risk of becoming ad dicted to gambling. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would be able to then concede that I would like to know if the new Minister of negotiations on behalf of Manitoba farmers have Gaming will fo llow the report's recommen­ failed miserably. I wonder what kind of action dations and put the entire new casino expansion she is now going to introduce in this province to process on hold until Doctor Korn has carried bring us up to the same level of fu nding and out more research. support mechanisms that others are receiving in their provinces. I wonder whether she could tell Hon. (Minister charged with the us whether she and her government are now administration of The Gaming Control Act): I going to be willing to put their hands in their think it is important to note that I actually have pockets, as other governments have done, as had the opportunity to read the report rather than Quebec has done and Ontario has done, to the news report. In fa ct. what the report calls fo r support the increased funding that she has lost in is a balance. It does not call fo r a moratorium. In negotiations for farmers in Manitoba. What kind fact, much ofwhat is in place in here in terms of of program is she now going to initiate in this moratorium has nothing to do with anything that province to bring us up to par? is reported in the news story. I said to the Member opposite what we have done is we have * (13:45) learned fr om the experience of the 1990s. and our approach to First Nations casinos builds in a Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the Member says community role in terms of whether those that the negotiations were not successful. I have casinos will proceed in those communities, to tell him that he is wrong. The position that we builds in an addiction portion, recommendations, went into those meetings on-Manitoba was by the way, which are in the report. So we are in supposed to lose $10 million. We were able to fact living up to many of the things that Doctor maintain Manitoba's funding at the level that it is Korn calls for in this particular report. and ensure that we get a review after three years to look at the impacts of this change. The change Social Costs moving towards cash receipts is wrong, but eight provinces were supporting it. The fe deral Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I am pleased government supported it. [interjection] The that the Minister has read the report. Maybe he Member questions whether I walked out of the can read the report from Alberta, the Alberta meeting. We walked out of the meeting because study that shows that, on average, youth are two we were going to lose $10 miilion, and because and a half times as likely to get addicted to we walked out of that meeting, because I walked gambling as anybody. out of that meeting, we were able to maintain that $1O-m iii ion level of fu nding fo r I would ask the Minister, based on that Manitobans. report, based on the research that has been done July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 37 15 in Alberta where it states clearly in that report I would like to point out for the record that that more studies need to be done before that minister and that government in its dying gambling expansion is undertaken, will this months increased the numbers of VL Ts on First minister conduct a study on how gambling is Nations communities by 65 percent, so we do going to affect the quality of life on reserves and not need any lecture from members opposite. the social impact of those that are addicted to it. What we are trying to do in this government is get a balance, the same kind of balance we see in * (13:50) other areas such as liquor. We need regulation, we need community input, we need recognition Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the of the social costs and the fact that First Nations administration of The Gaming Control Act): people should have the same opportunities that Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that Doctor Korn that government had before in terms of some of actually, and this is in the news article, in the economic advantages. addition to the report, points to the fact that there are many economic advantages and potential First Nations Casinos economic advantages fo r First Nations. What I Audits want to say to the Member opposite is one of the key things we are doing here is we are bringing Mr. (Lac du Bonnet): I would in, I believe, something that should have start off firstly by congratulating the Minister of happened in the 1990s. By the way, they Highways and Transportation for his appoint­ increased VLTs by 26-fold in the 1990s. I say to ment to these additional responsibilities. the Member opposite we are learning from the mistakes of the previous government, we are Mr. Speaker, the new minister speaks about building in a community input mechanism, and a balanced approach in this particular area, and we are building in, up front, an addictions obviously an important part of the balance is the foundation for Aboriginal people. That is safeguards to ensure that the benefits he talks something we learned from the mistakes of the about actually make their way to those that he previous government. intends. Given that the previous minister, who resigned last week, would not commit to value­ Moratorium for-money audits of where the dollars were actually spent, I would like to ask the new Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, minister if he is prepared to provide that very I would ask that member to also read the important safeguard to First Nations people in Anglican Journal once in a while and study those committing to value-for-money audits on how reports. the proceeds of these casinos will be spent.

I would ask him if he agrees with the Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the statement made by the Archbishop that when administration of The Gaming Control Act): you base your economic development plan on Mr. Speaker, we see, again, they start off in gambling, you are asking a community to make Question Period by opposing the First Nations part of its living by persuading people to gamble casinos. Now they move into the operation of more and to lose more. I would ask the Minister: them. I want to assure the Member opposite that Why will he not stop gambling and listen to the what we have built in place with the RFP, with research? the process we put in place, which is a very rigorous process, and in particular the fact that Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the we are having the Gaming Commission, which, administration of The Gaming Control Act): I by the way, was set up by the previous sometimes wonder about the consistency of government in response to the recommendations members opposite, and I particularly noted the of the Desjardins report, something we comments from the Member for Lac du Bonnet supported when we were in opposition-what we (Mr. Praznik) who stated: We got the sense, in are setting up is a very rigorous process that will our latter days, we were reaching or had reached ensure, in fact, that the benefits do go to First the saturation point. Nations communities. I want to say one of the 3716 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

lessons we learned from the mistakes of the from the mistake of Saskatchewan and commit previous government is that 70 percent of the here today to ensure that there is value-for­ benefit will go to the First Nations proponent money audits so that all First Nations people can and 30 percent will go to a trust fu nd that will have a clear and transparent understanding of include action on the social costs of gambling. where this money is being spent, and are they We learned from the mistakes of the previous getting value fo r it? government. * (13:55) Mr. Praznik: In the interests of helping the Minister (Mr. Ashton) make another mistake, he Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I look to my just told this House that 70 percent of the colleague the Minister responsible for Lotteries proceeds are going to go to the host community. (Ms. McGifford). You want to talk about value Is he telling us now that none will go to the for money here. Whatever happened under that management companies? I want to ask him: previous government to the massive overruns in What restriction will he put in place to ensure terms of the costs of the casino expansions? I that the management companies are not taking mean, talk about saying one thing and doing the 30 percent or 40 percent that we understand another. they have been attempting to negotiate? I want to assure the Member opposite that, Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, if the Member will through the process we have put in place, one of do one thing, I think, and read the RFP and read our main goals is to avoid the mistakes that they the report that has come out, he will see, and I made with our own casinos as a provincial give the former minister a great deal of credit for government and ensure, indeed, that the this, we will have one of the most rigorous, if maximum amount of benefit goes to the First not the most rigorous, processes that has been Nations proponents and the recipients of the trust put in place. fund which, by the way, will ensure the benefits of this go to every First Nations community in By the way, we are learning not only from the province of Manitoba. the mistakes of the previous government but what has happened in other jurisdictions. One Labour Relations Act thing I want to assure the Member and all Amendments-Secret Ballots members of this House and the people of Manitoba is, by having this operated with the Mr. (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, Gaming Control Commission, we are going to last week the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) ensure the maximum amount of benefit goes to shamefully introduced some of the most the host, the proponent communities and the antidemocratic legislation that this House has remaining recipients of the trust funds. We are ever seen. Intrinsic to any true democracy is the going to make sure that there is extensive right to a vote, a secret ballot. Not only does this scrutiny of all aspects of the gaming. Once government have no r�spect for the business again, I think that is learning fr om the mistakes community in Manitoba, they have lost all of the previous government, from other respect for democracy. My question fo r the jurisdictions. Minister is: What have Manitoba workers done to deserve your government taking away their Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, the Minister will right to a secret ballot? have the chance to put his actions where his words are. The Saskatchewan government did Ron. (Minister of Labour): Mr. something very similar. Their auditor is now Speaker, last week we introduced what we telling them that they should require value-for­ believe is a very reasonable and balanced set of money audits on how the proceeds are spent. amendments to The Labour Relations Act. Over Given what happened with the Saskatchewan the last almost 30 years, either in practice or Government Gaming Authority, some one-third legislation, there has been some form of of a million dollars going into expenses, I would automatic certification for contracts-<>r for union ask the Minister again: Will he commit to learn certification. It is only since 1996 that there has July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3717 been a vote required in all circumstances over 40 adult bookstores, videos, museums like the percent. So we are fo llowing 30 years of practice museum of Manitoba where children frequent. and legislation. * (14:00) Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Labour and all the former union leaders seated As Trish Masniuk has pointed out, and she on the Government benches, why are you is here today, carefully performed studies in turning your backs on the workers of Manitoba other jurisdictions show there is a higher and revoking their right to a secret ballot? Which incidence of crimes in such zones. When will the group is next? Whose rights are going to go next Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs act to with this government? protect children in this province by creating an urban planning policy with green-light zones forbidding adult businesses within 1000 feet of day cares, museums and other sites where there Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, when over 65 is a high intensity of children. percent, two-thirds of the vote of the employees in a workplace, sign a card saying they wish to Hon. (Minister of Intergovern­ belong to a union, we believe that is a very, very mental Affairs): I thank the Honourable clear sign of the workers' democratically chosen Member fo r that question. It is clearly a matter position. That is why we are putting back in of concern to people in many parts of , place an automatic certification process that. in as indeed in other municipalities as well, and it practice and legislation, has been in effect in this is a matter of very serious concern, but I am province fo r the last 29 years. with the exception sure. as the Member understands, this is of fo ur years under the fo rmer government. primarily an issue for the planning by-laws of the City of Winnipeg and of other Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister municipalities. I know the citizen that the inform this House exactly when during the Member has made reference to has certainly provincial election or when during the economic made those representations to the City of summit was this discussed? Can she confirmthat Winnipeg. her actions have made the letters NDP stand for non-democratic partyor no democracy, please? Mr. Gerrard: Ma question supplementaire: Puisque c'est possible pour elle de faire des Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, as I answered the changements a Ia legislation, dont Ia legislation first two questions. this is a return to the practice touchant Ia Ville de Winnipeg, quand est-ce que and legislation that was in effect in Manitoba Ia ministre des Affaires Intergouvernementales through the Ed Schreyer years, the Howard mettra en place une politique de planification Pawley years, through all of the fo ur years of the pour les regions urbaines du Manitoba pour Progressive Conservative govern­ proteger nos enfants? ment and through eight years of the former government. So this is not an antidemocratic [Translation} process. This is a return to what has been standard procedure, in practice and legislation, My supplementary question: Since it is over the last 28 years. possible for her to make changes to legislation, including the legislation concerning the City of Urban Planning Policy Winnipeg, when will the Minister of Inter­ Adult Businesses governmental Affairs put into place a planning policy for the urban regions of Manitoba to Hon. (River Heights): Mr. protect our children? Speaker, my question to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: Many Winnipeggers Ms. Friesen: Je voudrais remercier le depute and Manitobans with children are concerned pour cette question et je voudrais souligner pour about the Government's urban planning policies le depute que c'est une question tres importante which permit the location of adult businesses, pour le gouvernement aussi. 37 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

Mais je voudrais dire au depute que Ia Youth Unemployment Rate responsabilite de moo ministere c'est d'assurer Provincial Statistics que Ia planification de Ia Ville de Winnipeg est en bonne forme. Nous avons !'occasion de faire Ms. (St. Vital): My question is to des representations a Ia Ville de Winnipeg et the Minister of Labour. During the election nous avons fait cela au sujet de Ia planification campaign last September, the colleagues and de Ia Ville de Winnipeg qui est en cours a members on this side of the House pledged new present. Merci. hope for young people.

[Translation] Can the Minister of Labour inform the House how the recently announced unem­ ployment st atistics will affect Manitoba youth? I would like to thank the Member for that question, and I would like to emphasize for the Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Member that this is a very important matter for thank the Honourable Member for St. Vital for the Government as well. that question because it provides me with the opportunity to share with all members of the House and all Manitobans some very. very But I would like to tell the Member that the encouraging news on the job front, on the responsibility of my department is to ensure that unemployment statistics, especially for young the City of Winnipeg's planning is appropriate. people. We have just found out that in June the We have the opportunity to make representations jobless rate for youths between the ages of 15 to the City of Winnipeg, and we have done that and 24 is the lowest in the country. It is 7.9 on the subject of the City of Winnipeg's plan percent for the month of June. well below the which is currently in process. Thank you. national average of 1 1.8 percent.

Mr. Gerrard: My second supplementary is to I would just like to say that the unem­ the Minister of Family Services. I ask the ployment rate of 4.4 percent overall in the Minister when he will act, since his colleague is province of Manitoba has not been this low since so equivocal about doing anything, to protect August of 1976 under the Schreyer government children in Manitoba? when it was 4.3. Thank you. Hon. (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I think that there are all kinds of School Divisions places in which we act together, both with our Amalgamations urban planning colleagues and with our Health colleagues, with our Justice colleagues, through Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, the the Healthy Child Initiative, through the Minister of Education, after being caught saying interdepartmental committee on the sexual one thing one day about school division exploitation of children. All of the work that we amalgamations and then the very next day do in this regard, we work together as a saying something completely opposite, got government. We work in a number of ways himself so wrapped up in speaking out of both which I think are quite innovative with our sides of his mouth that he actually hid from the Healthy Child Initiative. media and refused to be interviewed. Hopefully, his press secretary will not deny access to him I agree with the Member. We need to work today. very diligently to help protect our children and our families against unreasonable abuse and the Will the Minister, for once. provide clear kind that he is alluding to. But I think that our direction to school divisions on what he is government has shown, through the initiative, looking for in regard to amalgamations so school that we are committed to working together with boards have a plan to work with and an each other to protect our children and protect our understanding of what government wants them families, and we are doing that. to achieve? July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3719

Hon. (Minister of Education Mr. Caldwell: Of course, Mr. Speaker, issues of and Training): I suppose at the outset I should collective bargaining that take place within comment on the tremendous success that the school divisions are the purview of the local Member had in having Stockwell Day elected to teachers' association and the school division in the Canadian alliance reform party last week. I question. know that the Member has worked diligently for Stockwell Day over the last number of months, * (14:10) and his success is noteworthy in the province. Hypotheticals of that nature are beyond the scope of this minister or anybody in the province As for the amalgamations of school to hypothesize about. I can tell you, though, Mr. divisions, of course this has been an issue that Speaker, that the repeated year after year after has been before the public and school trustees year of cuts, steady, consistent cuts, minus, since 1994 and the release of the Norrie minus, minus over the last decade by the commissiOn report. The position of the members opposite have put the property Government has not changed. We are seeking taxpayers on the hook for the single largest divisions to work very assiduously with their explosion of property taxes in this province's neighbours in realizing efficiencies and realizing history, and we are determined that that will not resource management that will put more occur under this watch. resources into the classrooms of the province of Manitoba, as opposed to the administration of Overland Flooding those classrooms. Disaster Assistance

Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister tell Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): As a result of last Manitoba teachers if his government's plan Thursday evening's heavy rains and the previous includes compensating the teachers for mileage rains during the past three weeks, hundreds of and moving expenses as a result of his forced Manitobans are cleaning up flooded homes and amalgamation directive, when they are required businesses. to travel long distances or actually move residence so they have close proximity to their Overland flooding is a very real problem in work? communities such as Winnipeg, Headingley, St. Andrews, West St. Paul, Steinbach, La Broquerie, Portage and others. Flood victims and Mr. Caldwell: Of course there is no forced municipalities are trying to restore some order. amalgamation in process. The Member repea­ For example, the Rural Municipality of tedly puts that on the table as fact. What we are Headingley is examining whether to pass a interested in is having some real movement on resolution declaring this event to be a disaster. this issue, something that has not occurred in the last six years. The people of Manitoba expect Mr. Speaker, as rural municipalities pass their tax dollars to be spent as efficiently as resolutions requesting disaster assistance, will possible. They expect their education tax dollars the Minister responsible for Emergency to be spent in the classrooms of the province of Measures tell this House whether the disaster Manitoba and not in the administrative financial assistance arrangements program will boardrooms of the province of Manitoba. We be activated to deal with the problems created by will proceed with that agenda, Mr. Speaker, in these recent rains? the best interests of the children of this province.

Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Highways and Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, will this minister tell Government Services): I appreciate the the House if he is concerned that, according to Member raising the concerns. In fact, EMO has the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, been in place in a number of municipalities divisions may forgo some teacher transfers that already. We are certainly aware of the difficulty would have benefited children because they people faced in those communities, and as is the cannot afford to pay compensation? normal process with Emergency Measures, we 3720 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

will be working with the municipalities and wished to preserve this part of Scottish culture. determining whether indeed it will proceed to Members of the Pipes and Drums proudly wear that step, but EMO has been there in place the Manitoba Tartan and represent our province working with the affected municipalities. We at events around the world, most notably at certainly appreciate the difficulties people are world curling championships in Switzerland, faced with currently. Sweden, Germany, and right here in Manitoba.

Mr. Helwer: Will the Minister responsible for I would like to take a moment to salute the Emergency Measures tell us whether this members of the Pipes and Drums of Manitoba disaster financial assistance program will also be and to congratulate their president, Don made available to the city of Winnipeg under Mcintyre, a resident of St. James constituency, similar disaster declarations? on their dedication to Scottish heritage and their contribution to our province. I certainly enjoyed Mr. Ashton: We are currently reviewing all the listening to the skirl of the pipes in Lundar and evidence we have, all the situations that are out look forward to hearing them perform again. there. As the Member will know, the first Thank you. reaction in terms of EMO is to get in and work with the affected communities. It is, of course, Strawberry Production triggered by the communities, the municipalities which play the lead role, I might add, in terms of Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Emergency Measures. Mr. Speaker, it is a real pleasure for me to be able to rise today on a member's statement and to I will be dealing with my department later, offer to each member of this Legislature a little in particular with EMO, to determine the exact taste of Portage Ia Prairie. impact and will report back to the Member as we get further information. The strawberries in front of each honourable member are a freshly grown sample of Portage Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has Ia Prairie's ever-increasing commitment to crop expired. diversification. As has been the case, I understand, by a tradition established by our MEMBERS' STATEMENTS former member for Portage Ia Prairie, Mr. Ed Connery, the berries are courtesy of the Pipes and Drums of Manitoba Honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie.

Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Over the last two decades, strawberries have Recently I had the opportunity to attend the become a prominent part of Portage Ia Prairie's Lundar fair. It was one of many events of agricultural scene. There are now dozens of summer that had to contend with the rain, but I strawberry farms in the region, with over 70 am happy to report that the wet weather did not acres devoted to strawberry production. deter residents of Lundar from taking part in the Nowhere else in the country is there an well-planned activities. abundance and such a concentration of strawberries as there is in Portage Ia Prairie. As I was particularly impressed with the such, the city has earned the title Strawberry performance of the Pipes and Drums of Capital of Canada. The label is well deserved, as Manitoba whose members arrived early in evidenced in 1988 when Portage Ia Prairie Lundar to take part in the celebrations. Their entered into the Guinness Book of Warid flexibility and generosity with their time was Records with their giant bowl of strawberries evident as they patiently accommodated changes weighing over 1500 kilograms. in time and venue necessitated by the rain. This year strawberries are once again The Pipes and Drums of Manitoba were featured at the Strawberry Festival which is held established in the early 1950s by a dedicated in conjunction with the annual Portage Ex. I had group of musicians from across Winnipeg who the distinct pleasure of making a few remarks at July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3721

this event this weekend, as it just happens to be attend Vincent Massey Collegiate's graduation the 128th edition of the continuous Portage Ex. ceremonies. Nearly 300 students received their diplomas, and many were honoured with awards The strawberries that you have here today, I for their outstanding efforts. It was a real joy to wish you all the very best, and it is my pleasure watch so many bright and talented young people to provide. Thank you. being recognized for successfully completing this all-important stage of their lives. Bill and Michael Bilous

I was particularly proud to personally Mr. (Assiniboia): I would like to present an award to one very special young rise today to recognize the efforts of Bill Bilous woman, Miss Melanie Clark. She was awarded and his son, Michael, in Assiniboia. the first-ever Joy Smith, MLA Performing Arts Award which is presented to a graduating These fine gentlemen have been spending a performing arts student who has shown great deal of effort coaching and promoting the leadership in the school and has made an development of a soccer program in Assiniboia. outstanding contribution to the performing arts. These two have spent countless hours working with the youth, age 10 boys, in developing skills and, more importantly, a very, very positive Melanie was a most deserving recipient for attitude. This year they played out of Assiniboia this award, being such a positive asset to the West Community Club, and they coached a team performing arts program at Vincent Massey called Impact, 10-year-old boys. They played Collegiate. Her participation in the school dance indoor soccer. Sixteen boys played. In the program spring musical and her work on the previous year they had zero wins, this team. This student council were important factors in her year, with a lot of practice, a lot of dedication selection. I want to take this opportunity to say and a lot of commitment, they became B side how proud Melanie and all of her fellow winners. That was really important. graduates can be of their accomplishments thus far and congratulations to the principal and to This past summer is the first time St. James the staff and teachers at Vincent Massey. I want ever entered the A league in soccer. The team to wish them all the best in the years to come. combined Kirkfield, Woodhaven, Assiniboine West boys, 33 boys tried out, and 16 eventually * (14:20) joined the team. They had an excellent attitude. They had great parental support. They had a Sustainable Development Strategy really good spirit. Michael and Bill told me that the kids go to practice, they try hard and they Mr. Scott Smith (Brandon West): Mr. give it their all. Anyhow, they were undefeated Speaker, it is a pleasure to stand today to put on in league play, and they had a great, excellent record this government's sustainable develop­ year. ment strategy. Unlike the previous Conservative government, our government has taken the I would like to thank and congratulate Mike necessary first steps toward developing a policy and Bill Bilous for the thousands of hours they that will ensure implementation of sustainable have donated to their community, their development principles and guidelines in community-minded spirit, commitment and everyday workings of government. dedication to the future of our province. I would like to thank Michael who has played in the Mr. Speaker, our government believes that premier league for Winnipeg Dynamo, and has the principles of sustainable development need represented the province in soccer. He really to be considered within the larger decision­ leaves an excellent legacy. Thank you. making framework. With the recent acceptance of the COSOI recommendations our government Vincent Massey Collegiate Graduation will be better suited to make decisions in a more co-ordinated, comprehensive and integrated Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, on manner. This will prove to be a welcome change Wednesday, June 28, I had the opportunity to from the previous government who was eager to 3722 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

preach the advantages implicit within the sound Initiative Estimates until further notice? sustainable development policies but failed on [Agreed} several occasions to comply with their own sustainable development strategies. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, move, seconded by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. It is important to ensure that our economy Lathlin), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the and our environment grow in a responsible and Chair and the House resolve itself into a sustainable manner and that the needs of the committee to consider of the Supply to be present are met without sacrificing the ability of granted to Her Majesty. future generations to meet their own needs. As responsible stewards, we must ensure that the COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY benefits of a healthy environment and a healthy (Concurrent Sections) economy continue to grow in a sustainable fashion. With the recent changes introduced by our government, Manitobans can be assured that FAMILY SERVICES AND HOUSING future generations will have access to a healthy environment we enjoy today. Thank you very Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): much, Mr. Speaker. Order. please. Will the Committee of Supply come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee Changes Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I Department of Family Services and Housing. move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), that the When the Committee last sat, there had been composition of the Standing Committee on agreement to have a global discussion with the Public Utilities and Natural Resources be understanding that the order in the main amended as follows: the Honourable Member Estimates book would be followed, and all lines for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) for the Honourable and resolutions would be passed following Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) completion of questions and answers. Is that still and the Honourable Member for Arthur-Virden the will of the Committee? [A greed} (Mr. Maguire) for the Honourable Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan). When the Committee last sat, discussion had been centred around 9.4. The floor is open for Motion agreed to . questions. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I believe it would be agreeable if Hon. (Government House we might start with the resolutions of 9.2, if that Leader): Mr. Speaker, I wish to obtain the is acceptable, and pass a bunch of those until we unanimous consent of the House to vary the get to whatever point the critic wishes to stop at. sequence for Estimates consideration, to That would give your voice a bit of a break. consider in Room 254 the Estimates of the Department of Conservation to follow after Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Any order consideration of the Healthy Child Initiative that would be agreeable to the Committee. Line Estimates, and these changes are to apply until 9.l.(a) Minister's Salary, if we leave that open, further notice. and the Healthy Child Initiative; other than that, I am prepared to pass the rest. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for the House to vary the sequence for Estimates consideration set out in Sessional Paper No. 138, Mr. Chairperson: I understand there is general and subsequently amended, to consider in Room agreement to pass some of these lines starting 254 the Estimates of the Department of with Resolution 9.1, leaving out the Minister's Conservation to follow after the Healthy Child Salary. July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3723

9. 1. Administration and Finance (b) 9.3. Community Living (a) Regional Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Operations (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits Benefits $566,900-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $15,828,000-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $80, 700-pass. $2,426,400-pass.

9. 1.(c) Social Services Advisory Committee 9.3.(b) Adult Services (1) Salaries and (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $208,200- Employee Benefits $1,723,800-pass; (2) Other pass; (2) Other Expenditures $158,900-pass. Expenditures $1,575, 900-pass; (3) Financial Assistance and External Agencies $94, 179,900- 9. 1.(d) Human Resource Services (1) pass. Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,085,300- pass; (2) Other Expenditures $125,600-pass. 9.3.(c) Manitoba Developmental Centre (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $23,490,700- 9. 1.(e) Policy and Planning (1) Salaries and pass; (2) Other Expenditures $3,076,700-pass. Employee Benefits $979, 1 00-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $178,500-pass. 9.3.(d) Residential Care Licensing (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $245,500-pass; 9.l.(t) Financial and Administrative (2) Other Expenditures $35,900-pass. Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,422,000- pass; (2) Other Expenditures 9.3.(e) Office of the Vulnerable Persons' $480,500-pass. (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $296,000-pass; (2) Other expenditures 9. 1.(g) Information Systems (1) Salaries and $252,600-pass. Employee Benefits $2,451,600-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,563, 500-pass. Resolution 9.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 9.2. Employment and Income Assistance (a) $143,131,400 for Family Services and Housing, Program Services (1) Salaries and Employee Community Living, for the fiscalyear ending the Benefits $21,392,000- pass; (2) Other Expen­ 31st day of March, 2001. ditures $7 ,896,600-pass. Resolutionagreed to. 9.2.(b) Income Assistance Programs (1) Employment and Income Assistance * (14:40) $263,399,300-pass; (2) Health Services $31 ,512,700-pass; (3) Municipal Assistance 9.4. Child and Family Services (a) Strategic $4,916,700-pass; (4) Income Assistance for Initiatives, Co-ordination and Support (1) Persons with a Disability $12,173 ,400-pass. Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,002,600- pass; (2) Other Expenditures $309,300-pass. 9.2.(c) Building Independence $3, 175,000- pass. 9.4.(b) Child, Family and Community Development (1) Children's Special Services (a) 9.2.(d) Income Supplement Programs (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $327,400-pass; Salaries and Employee Benefits $594,600-pass; (b) Other Expenditures $292,900-pass; (c) (2) Other Expenditures $327,900-pass; (3) Financial Assistance and External Agencies Financial Assistance $8,335, 100-pass. $11, 132, 100-pass.

Resolution 9.2: RESOLVED that there be 9.4.(b)(2) Child Day Care (a) Salaries and granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Employee Benefits $2,245,600-pass; (b) Other $353,723,300 for Family Services and Housing, Expenditures $469,600-pass; (c) Financial Employment and Income Assistance, for the Assistance and Grants $60,161,200-pass. fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2001. 9.4.(c) Protection and Support Services (1) Resolution agreed to. Child Protection and Support Services (a) 3724 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,474,600- Amortization of Capital Assets, for the fiscal pass; (b) Other Expenditures $3,944,700-pass; year ending the 31st day of March, 200 I. (c) Maintenance of Children and External Agencies $132,056,000-pass; (d) The Family Resolution agreed to. Support Innovations Fund $2,325,000-pass. Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I wonder if the critic 9.4.(c)(2) Family Conciliation (a) Salaries would agree to do the Healthy Child questions, and Employee Benefits $746,500-pass; (b) given that staff will be here for those and will Other Expenditures $279,000-pass. not be here fo r the Minister's Salary. Then we could revert back to complete that. Would that 9.4.(c)(3) Family Violence Prevention (a) be acceptable? Salaries and Employee Benefits $530,800-pass; (b) Other Expenditures $110,0 00-pass; (c) Mr. Chairperson: Is there leave to do the External Agencies$7,937,200 -pass. Healthy Child Initiative first before we pass the Minister's Salary? [A greed] Resolution 9.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding HEALTHY CHILD INITIATIVE $226,344,500 for Family Services and Housing, Child and Family Services, for the fiscal year Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): The ending the 31st day of March, 2001. floor is open.

Resolution agreedto. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, I have a fe w questions to help me 9.5. Housing (a) Housing Services (1) understand better what the Government's Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,488,900- intention is and certainly the general thrust of the pass; (2) Other Expenditures $376,900-pass; (3) Healthy Child Initiative. When part and parcel Financial Assistance $5, 750,000-pass. announcements were made, I think no one could disagree with the intentions, but I would like to 9.5 .(b) Corporate Services (1) Salaries and understand, and perhaps it is the phraseology, Employee Benefits $1,700,1 00-pass; (2) Other but on page 4 under Reconciliation it talks about Expenditures $1,0 50,500-pass. transfer of fu nction fr om.

9.5.(c) Capital Planning Services (1) I would have been quite prepared to accept Salaries and Employee Benefits $940,600-pass; this as transfer of dollars for support, but when it (2) Other Expenditures $93,500-pass; (3) Less: talks about transfer of fu nction fr om, I would be Recoverable from other appropriations interested in knowing what some of those ($500,000). fu nctions are and whether that, in fa ct, included staff going with it or whether it was accepting 9.5.(d) The Manitoba Housing and Renewal responsibility for what is normally a depart­ Corporation $31,280, 700-pass. mental fu nction, if the Minister can enlighten me. Resolution 9.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding * (14:50) $42,18 1,200 for Family Services and Housing, Housing, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services of March, 200 I. and Housing): Mr. Chairperson, I think that the Member is right, that it is probably a question of phraseology more than anything else. As the Resolution agreed to. Member knows, the Children and Youth Secretariat was set up with seconded staff fr om Resolution 9.6: RESOLVED that there be other departments. These numbers represent granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding seconded staff fo r the most part and the salaries $5,733,100 fo r Family Services and Housing, associated with those secondments. In that sense July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3725

the functions associated with those staff people effective ways of reaching out to high-risk who have been there now for three years at this parents and families in a pre-school as well as point are continuing in the new initiative. school-age setting, so an expansion of work in that area. Manitoba, along with Saskatchewan So that is really what function means. It and Alberta, are national leaders in fetal alcohol means the staff here and associated resources are syndrome prevention and amelioration. We coming from the various departments, in terms intend to expand our efforts in regard to both of the big item, the major item of $3.6 million in prevention and more effective intervention. So Family Services and Housing. That largely those are some of the areas that we will see reflects the Women and Infant Nutrition expanded effort. Program and the staff associated, but vastly mo:e WIN, as the Member probably knows, is Mr. Cummings: I certainly am encouraged to deltvered through contractual arrangements with hear of the Minister's interests. I am aware of regional health authorities, volunteer, non-profit some of the discussion he has been part of groups, and a few groups that might be called around fetal alcohol. It is becoming a huge issue quasi for-profit groups. in some parts of the community and certainly an area that I would encourage his continued For instance, an offshoot of We Care involvement and support of. delivers the program in a site on Sherbrook Street through a non-profit offshoot of the for­ I have a question about the staffing numbers, profit company. So I would think in round terms two FTEs added to the secretariat. Could he about 80 percent or 85 percent of that 3.6 million enlighten me on what their responsibilities might is in contracts out to probably in the order of, be? what, 40? How many WIN sites are there? Thirty-five WIN sites, of varying sizes, of Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, just before I answer course, around the province. So most of that is that question, staff also provided me with some money that flows out to purchase that service additional information in regard to the previous from particularly the RHAs and community _ questiOn. Part of the $2 million additional funds groups that are hosts for WIN. does relate to annualizations of programs begun partway through the fiscal year but which have Mr. Cummings: This leaves some discretionary to be annualized next year. Roughly half of the expenditures. While dollars may not be firmed money is annualizations fo r BabyFirst, up here, I wonder if the Minister is prepared to EarlyStart, Stop F AS, adolescent pregnancy, and share yet where some of the discretionary dollars some agency grants which were part-year and are likely to end up. If he has not made that _ will be full-year in this fiscal year. The decision yet. that is also an answer. If he has, I . remamder refers to the issues that I have wonder if he is prepared to share that. Or is he previously addressed. waiting until he has a chance to make some announcements. In terms of the additional staff, these positions are created and funded but they have Mr. Sale: We will, of course, make some not been filled as yet. They are associated with announcements. I think we indicated in the the increased emphasis on prenatal nutrition. As ?udget a concern about strengthening our work that program gets defined, these positions are tn the area of prenatal nutrition. That work is in a intended to allow that program to be fleshed out plann�ng stage a�d will be announced probably and implemented over this fiscal year and then it later m the fall m terms of its full framework. will be annualized into the next fiscal year. We also indicated in the Healthy Child announcement when we made the announcement of the five departments working together Mr. Cummings: Thank you for that answer. expanded support for parent-child centres, which That does underscore what I had said last week were begun actually in the 1970s. which is the first year of the program was ver; often the cheap year. The annualization is what Everywhere they have been evaluated, well­ will come back to haunt governments, this one run parent-child centres are shown to be very or any other. 3726 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

I would be interested in the announcement secondment of staff. but where does the itself, and the change of title somewhat, I would additional expenditure come from, or the suggest, intended to demonstrate a continued additional dollars come from, over and above the and/or increased attention that the Government actual cost of the seconded staff? Is this from intends to spend in this area, but when the general revenues? Is it from the appropriation of relevant ministries were announced, I guess Family Services. or does each of these dollars there was always a question of whether or not from various departments to some extent the policy direction is going to be intimately represent also the transfer of dollars? directed by the committee of ministers or whether it becomes a delegated blind function. * (15 :00) This area is important enough and has received enough publicity over the last number of years Mr. Sale: I thank the Member, Mr. Chairperson, and under this administration that I would be for what I think is a series of important points. interested to know how often this committee Augmenting the ministerial committee. by the meets. way. is the deputies' committee, and we had today all but one deputy, and that was because Mr. Sale: I honestly did not plant this question, that deputy was out of town. I think that the as the critic knows, but we met today. We meet Secretariat was a very useful structure to get monthly. The committee of deputies meets started in this area. but a secretariat is not. by its monthly, or more often as required. and. of nature, a service-delivery level. course, the staffare working all the time. At this point the ministers' committee is meeting What our government wanted to see was a monthly, and we see that being required for the very integrated approach to our Healthy Child first while. We are not sure whether it will Initiative as we framed it in response to the Postl always be required. but certainly we see it as report in 1996. and we thought that the best way where we have to start. to achieve that was to keep the cross­ departmental focus through having ti ve Mr. Cummings: I am encouraged to hear that. ministries and having a cabinet committee The Minister might well be aware that my mandated by the Premier to give direction. but colleagues had asked similar questions of some also recognizing that the way to get most impact of his colleagues. I am not so sure that they were on our overall service-delivery approach is to as forthcoming about how often the Committee integrate it within the departments so that the was meeting, and I wanted to be assured that in delivery of service to children and families takes fact, the Committee meets regularly, not that I on the coloration of a focus on early childhood, do not trust the Department. on preventive services and so forth.

But when you are starting off new initiatives So it maintains, in some ways, the strengths under the direction of a committee. we will be of having a staff unit that the secretariat had, but watching closely to make sure that that it increases that strength significantly by having committee is, in fact, providing direction and it report directly to cabinet with minutes on a policy for policy development, because to some regular basis and with ministerial accountability extent it appears that this minister and this for that work, not just a departmental account­ government are prepared to make this a flagship ability. initiative. If they are going to do that, then I want to make sure that there is some steak as well as sizzle, so from time to time I assure the So I think he makes a very good point, that Minister that we will be checking and inquiring if you are going to make something a flagship, of his colleagues on how regularly this which we certainly intend to do, in terms of a committee is convened and the involvement. priority there for all the good reasons that the critic and I have talked about during these I would ask another question along the same Estimates, then you have got to give it some line. We discussed earlier that the support from steak, some sizzle, and we intend to continue various departments was mainly related to that kind of support. July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3727

In regard to the question of where the Resolution 34. 1. Healthy Child Initiative (a) incremental revenues come from, they come Salaries and Employee Benefits $916,000-pass; from general revenues. They are new dollars. (b) Other Expenditures $432,500-pass; (c) They are not reallocated from other purposes. It Financial Assistance and Grants $11,443,400- is new revenue. pass.

Mr. Cummings: I am prepared to pass the Resolution 34. 1: RESOLVED that there be Healthy Child Initiative. Sorry, one last question. granted to Her Maj esty a sum not exceeding I understand, and perhaps you have mentioned it $12,791,900 for Healthy Child Initiative, previously in Estimates, but to lead this initiative Healthy Child Initiative, for the fiscal year from a departmental or administrative point of ending the 31st day of March, 2001. view, is this an advertised position?

Resolution agreed to. Mr. Sale: The answer is that, yes, it was advertised nationally in the Globe and Ma il as well as locally in the Free Press. I do not know Resolution 34.2: RESOLVED that there be if it was advertised in the Sun as well, but it was granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding certainly in the Free Press. We received 60-plus $74,000 for Healthy Child Initiative, Amor­ applications. Short-listing and interviewing have tization of Capital Assets, for the fiscal year taken place, and we are in the process of ending the 31st day of March, 2001. finalizing an appointment. which we hope to announce in the relatively near future. Resolution agreed to.

Mr. Chairperson, just before we close, I That concludes the Healthy Child Initiative. want to give the Member a copy for the record of his request for organizations receiving grant FAMILY SERVICES AND HOUSING support from our department, as well as a list of (Continued) organizations whose services are purchased on a per-diem basis. Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): As As the Member will understand, the per­ agreed, we will now proceed to line 9. 1.(a) diem amounts vary up and down each year with Minister's Salary in the Estimates of Family the volume of service, whereas the grants tend to Services and Housing. be more stable. Frankly, the best way to get a sense of the per-diem amounts on an annual The last item to be considered for the basis is just to look at Volume 2 of Public Estimates of the Department of Family Services Accounts, because you will see there the total and Housing is item 9. 1.(a) Minister's Salary amount going to that organization. $27 ,300-pass.

In a few cases they are mixed, where there Resolution 9. 1: RESOLVED that there be may be a grant to the organization as well as a granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding purchase of service, so the total in Volume 2 $9,328, 100 for Family Services and Housing, would represent the sum of the two. Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 200 1.

Mr. Cummings: Mr. Chairman, before we Resolution agreed to. proceed to pass, let me say that this information is useful and appreciated. We can now pass both This concludes the Estimates of Family this line and the Minister's Salary. Services and Housing. We will now proceed to the Department of Conservation. Shall we recess Mr. Chairperson: We will move on to the for a few minutes? Agreed? [A greed] Healthy Child Initiative on page 95 of the main Estimates book. We will recess for five minutes. Thank you. 3728 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

The Committeerecessed at 3:10p.m. ment of Conservation is that present and future Manitobans will enjoy and prosper in an environment that is healthy with an abundance of diverse natural resources and sustained The Committee resumedat 3:25 p.m. energy. The new organization will refocus its efforts on conserving energy and natural CONSERVATION resources and on protecting environmental integrity and biodiversity, minimizing the effects Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Will of natural disasters while optimizing oppor­ the Committee of Supply please come to order. tunities for economic benefits. Sustainable This section of the Committee of Supply will be development will be pursued through effective considering the Estimates of the Department of planning and local decision making. Conservation. The Department has been provided with an Does the Honourable Minister of Con­ unique opportunity to strengthen its commitment servation have an opening statement? to responsible management of the province's natural heritage, including an enhanced recog­ Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Con­ nition of the role of every citizen and the unique servation): Yes, I do have an opening statement place of Aboriginal peoples in resource planning to make. First of all, I want to say that I am and sustainable harvest. pleased to present the 2000-200 I and first Estimates of the new Department of Con­ The Department of Conservation has been servation. I trust that members have had the involved in what we refer to as the integration opportunity to review the Supplementary initiative, and I will talk about that a little bit Information for Legislative Review document here. On October 5, 1999, the Government prepared for the Department. announced the reorganization of the departments of Environment and Natural Resources, and the Before proceeding with my Estimates Petroleum and Energy program of the former remarks, Mr. Chairperson, I wish to acknow­ department of Energy and Mines into the ledge the dedication and commitment effort of Department of Conservation. all departmental staff in working to fulfil the mandate of the new Department of Con­ An internal integration steering committee servation. I know it has been a pretty hectic was established shortly thereafter to oversee the period from October 6 to where we are now, and integration of these entities into a fully I thank the staff for persevering during that integrated department. To support the integration period. review process, seven internal issue teams were established to focus on various integration It is important to note that, although our issues. A two-phase process was established government has been in office for only a short with the first phase reviewing and identifying period of time, there are many new initiatives immediate integration opportunities and process that I will be touching on during this service improvement suggestions. This phase presentation. First of all, I want to talk about was completed on schedule on February 15, Manitoba Conservation. Some people inad­ 2000. Phase 2 of the integration is currently vertently refer to us as conversation, but the real underway. The implementation of the recently name, Mr. Chairperson, is Conservation. What is announced Environmental Stewardship Division Conservation? Who are we in Conservation? and the implementation of numerous service process improvements initiatives identified in Through a comprehensive integration pro­ phase I are proceeding. cess, the former departments of Environment and Natural Resources and the Petroleum and In addition, phase 2 will encompass many Energy Branch are being consolidated into a other tasks, including the finalization and cohesive unit responsible for environmental and implementation of the remainder of the resource stewardship. The vision of the Depart- organizational structure of the new department, July I 0, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3729

confirmation of revised regional boundaries that policy functions to ensure better communication will be more appropriate to the new and flow of information within and across the organization, the range of services being Department. delivered, the identification of other integration improvement and service decentralization oppor­ In summary, this division is responsible for tunities, the exploration of alternate service a number of important functions, including delivery options respecting certain departmental legislation development, intergovernmental af­ services. It would also include the implemen­ fairs co-ordination, broad area planning, policy tation of a customer support service development and co-ordination, consultation and infrastructure to better serve the service and support, economic analysis, standard setting, information needs of Manitobans doing business assessment and licensing of major develop­ with our department, the identification and ments, co-ordination and support with respect to resolution of legislative regulatory changes that Aboriginal issues and opportunities. may emerge as a consequence of integration. This leads me to talk a little bit about the Other areas of departmental focus during the Aboriginal Resource Council. Manitoba Conser­ fiscal year will include succession planning, vation, as people around here will know, improved business planning and performance particularly those of the previous government, measurement monitoring and instituting effec­ deals with numerous natural resource manage­ tive consultation mechanisms with stakeholders ment issues that involve First Nations and who may be impacted by departmental activities. Aboriginal communities. Given the rapidly evolving legal process regarding Aboriginal * (15 :30) rights, there is a high probability of disputes arising in the day-to-day management of I want to talk a little bit about the resources issues by the Department. Further­ Environmental Stewardship Division now. As more, the Government has made a commitment members are aware, a new Environmental to implement the recommendations of the Stewardship Division has been established Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, some of which relate within the Department of Conservation. This to co-management of resources andto reviewing division consists of an Environmental Approvals the implementation of the COSDI report, which branch, a Policy and Planning Co-ordination recommended establishing a protocol for branch, and an Aboriginal Relations branch. The consultation with First Nations and Aboriginal establishment of this division is occurring for a communities. number of reasons. One of them is to provide a stronger vehicle through which to promote In order to positively address the environmental stewardship, to express this recommendations of the Aboriginal organi­ government's commitment to strengthening zations, and in order to avoid disputes and environmental stewardship through a broad area actions against the Province, the Government is in planning, and other initiatives recommended establishing an Aboriginal Resource Council. by the COSDI report. It is also to deal more The Council's mandate will be broad; it will effectively with a number of major initiatives service an arm's length advisory group, whose that will require a broad area of planning first assignment will be to development expertise: the east side of Lake Winnipeg, the recommendations on co-management issues. It Livestock Stewardship Initiative, Capital Region will provide recommendations for supporting planning, and so on, and to deal more effectively First Nations in adopting their own environ­ with issues that require interpretation of treaty mental protection and resource management by­ rights in the context of provincial legislation. laws. It will make recommendations on priority issues, such as the east side of Lake Winnipeg. This division will also assist the Department and the Government in navigating through The next part that I want to discuss a bit is resource management issues as they affect the legislative regulatory changes. I will start off Aboriginal communities. It is also to facilitate with the amendments to The Wildlife Act. In the the overall co-ordination of several separate upcoming year, the Department will be bringing 3730 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

forward amendments to The Wildlife Act. These Lake outlet and the Garrison Diversion in North amendments will provide the Government with Dakota. We will now be able to point to our own the ability to prohibit captive hunting of native legislation to show that in Manitoba such and exotic wildlife. For example, under these projects will not be allowed to occur. amendments, the Government would be able to prohibit the captive hunting of such species as The amendments to The Water Rights Act. elk and wild boar. To be clear, it is not the In the coming months, amendments to The Department's intention through these amend­ Water Rights Act will come into effect to ments to prohibit elk ranching for such purposes reinstate provincial authority over all land as velvet production. This will be allowed to drainage activities. These amendments are a continue. response to a recent Court of Appeal decision which stripped the Province of its historic The Water Resources Conservation and authority in land drainage matters. These Protection Act. The Water Resources Conser­ amendments. which are strongly supported by vation and Protection Act is expected to be the Association of Manitoba Municipalities. will enacted in the 2000-200 1 fiscal year and will be restore the Province's responsibility over land a significant step in the fulfilment of our throne drainage. speech commitment to take immediate steps to protect our water resources and preserve our Since the 1930s Natural Resources Transfer lakes, rivers and streams. New legislation will be Act. ownership and management of Manitoba's introduced to ban the bulk removal of our water. water resources. including the regulation of drainage works. has rested with the provincial Manitoba has played a significant role in the government. These amendments will restore the development of the Canada-wide accord Province's role in relation to drainage which is prohibiting bulk water removal from drainage an important aspect of the overall management basins, and this legislation is an important step in of Manitoba's water resources. implementing this national approach in Manitoba This legislation will essentially .do Furthermore, in the coming months, the two things. First. it prohibits the bulk removal of Department will release a discussion paper and water from Manitoba's portion of the Hudson mtttate broad-based consultations into a Bay drainage system. Secondly, it provides for a complete review of The Water Rights Act. The water resource management scheme whereby we proposed new legislation will focus on providing can subdivide Manitoba into sub-basins and a more harmonized approach to water manage­ regulate removal from and between sub-basins. ment involving the Province and municipalities. This legislation also allows for appropriate exemptions, including the export of bottled Amendments to The Environment Act. water under a maximum size of container. water Numerous amendments to The Environment Act used in the processing of food or beverages and will be enacted and implemented by the water removed with ministerial approval for Department. This is Manitoba's central environ­ short-term humanitarian reasons. mental statute, and as such, the Government feels it is important that this act be regularly This legislation is based on sound science updated and improved. and the precautionary principle. It is clearly an environmental and natural resource management * (15:40) bill rather than an anti-trade bill. We are assured by both federal trade experts and our own trade Among the expected amendments will be officials that this is the best approach from a the following: Strengthening the Clean Environ­ trade perspective. ment Commission and providing it with the ability to be more creative in the methods by On a final note, this legislation is consistent which it investigates issues and provides advice with Manitoba's position on the interbasin to the Minister; improving the licensing process transfer of water, particularly the position we by allowing for licences to be reviewed at a have taken with respect to the proposed Devils specific date rather than having licences continue July I 0, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3731

indefinitely with no updating; public notice of all phase-out of ozone depleting substances, proposed alterations to developments; allowing frequent amendments to this regulation are the Department to have a licence reviewed necessary. In the upcoming year the Department where significant adverse effects are feared if the will be amending this regulation to control the existing licence is not updated. usage of hydrofluorocarbons. Hydrofluoro­ carbons have become increasingly prevalent as Another proposed amendment will! enhance replacement substances for CFCs, the latter of the power of directors to issue emergency orders which are being phased out due to their similar to the powers they presently have under damaging effects on the ozone layer. While The Dangerous Goods Handling and Trans­ HFCs are not ozone depleting substances, they portation Act. An example of where such an are global warming substances and thus are order might be issued is against an intensive harmful for different reasons. Our regulatory livestock operation where it is feared an eastern amendments will be made in conjunction with storage lagoon is in imminent danger, or a consultations conducted by MOPIA and will northern storage lagoon is in imminen1 danger of likely entail requirements for technicians to breaching and requires immediate pumping recover and otherwise handle HFCs in the same down and repair to protect local service and manner as CFCs are handled. groundwater supplies. Cost of implementation. In the upcoming I will talk a little bit about the lodge and year, the Department will be considering and outfitters act. At present, the Department is implementing many of the recommendations responsible for portions of The Tourism and contained in the COSDI report. Released in Recreation Act pertaining to the licensing and 1999, the Consultation on Sustainable Develop­ operation of outfitters, hunting and fishing ment Implementation report contained numerous lodges and their outcamps. In the coming year recommendations in such areas as large area the Department will be embarking on additional planning; municipal planning; development, consultations with a view to updating and assessment and review; public participation; and bringing many of these provisions under a partnershipswith Aboriginal people. separate act to be administered entirely by the Department. These recommendations were developed through a comprehensive and extensive In the year 2000-200 1. the Department is stakeholder consultation process. Our depart­ planning to make amendments to The Oil and ment will continue to take a lead role in this Gas Act, at least two of the regulations under initiative and will continue to work with both The Oil and Gas Act. The drilling and pro­ private and public stakeholders as well as the duction regulation requires amendment primarily general public in this implementation stage. to expand on the requirements regarding gas flaring at oil and gas facilities as well as several The harmonization of environmental assess­ other subsidiary issues. ment. The Canada and Manitoba agreement on environment assessment co-operation was A number of amendments will also be signed in May 2000. Under the agreement, considered for the Crown royalty and incentives proposed projects will undergo a single co­ regulations to improve the effectiveness of the operative assessment meeting the legal Manitoba drilling incentive program. Through requirements of both governments while the ozone-depleting substances regulation, the maintammg their respective powers and Department effectively controls the usage and responsibilities. The agreement upholds the release of virtually all ozone depleting principle of an open process and will ensure a substances remaining in circulation in Manitoba. more efficient and effective process is in place for those projects requiring environmental The Manitoba Ozone Protection Industry assessment by both governments. The signing of Association assists in program delivery in this this agreement marks another important step in important area. Due to ever-changing techno­ the implementation of the Canadian Council of logical advances involved in the world-wide Ministers of Environment harmonization accord. 3732 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

The decommissioning of AECL's Whiteshell significant potential to develop a world-class laboratories in Pinawa. As we all know, the energy research facility at this site in partnership AECL has announced plans to decommission its with other levels of government, utility com­ facility in Pinawa known as the Whiteshell panies, universities. and so on. laboratories. While the provincial government alone may not be able to cause AECL to reverse The need for such research facilities will its position, the government is working hard to only expand as the issue of climate change ensure that AECL and the federal government becomes increasingly urgent, both in Canada and will not just walk away from this facility without worldwide. There are numerous reasons why addressing the serious economic and environ­ Manitoba and Pinawa in particular would be an mental issues that will remain. While ideal location for the establishment of such a recognizing that the economic and environ­ research facility. mental issues associated with this decom­ missioning cannot be completely delinked, the Going into the Fire Program, to supplement Department will in the upcoming year be the Department's aircraft resources for forest fire focussing on the difficult environmental issues suppression. the Department has implemented a associated with the radioactive waste at the site. new single-engine air tanker program. These AECL's decommissioning proposal is presently privately owned crop-spraying aircraft have been undergoing a federal assessment under the converted to air tankers. and are equipped \v ith a Canadian Environmental Assessment Act. Our drop-door assembly. similar to the water department is fully involved in this process and bombers. The aircraft is capable of carrying up is presently leading a technical advisory to 3000 I itres of fire retardant and can be committee which is co-ordinating provincial serviced and filled at almost any airstrip. The input into this process. Department will utilize this aircraft in areas where water for the water bombers is limited or Our department is also working closely with during the early spring when most lakes are still other provincial departments: Industry. Trade frozen. and Mines; Intergovernmental Affairs; as well as other local and municipal officials and other Assessment of oil field emissions. There is a local leaders to ensure that all views are taken growing concern across western Canada into account in the decommissioning process. regarding the short- and long-term effects of emissions related to the production and While AECL's decommissioning proposal processing of oil and gas. Manitoba has a small has several negative ramifications, the Depart­ but active oil patch in the southwestern part of ment is encouraged by some positive conser­ the province. but most of the oil produced in vation and environmental opportunities which Manitoba contains hydrogen sulphide, a gas that may be developing. First, much of the AECL can have serious health and safety consequences property is undeveloped and forested former at higher concentrations. Crown land which may be returned to the province at a very small cost. This parcel of land * (15:50) is one of the largest remaining undeveloped parcels of this particular landscape type Over the past two years, the Department has remaining in the province. For this reason, the been engaged in intensive air quality monitoring Department will in the coming months be in the Tilston area in response to complaints investigating the possibility of reacquiring this from local residents. This monitoring indicates portion of the site and setting it aside under that air quality in the Tilston area meets all Manitoba's protected areas initiative. standards. The concerns regarding air quality in this region led to a decision to initiate air quality Second, a feasibility study is planned to monitoring at other more intensively developed determine whether the Whiteshell laboratory site locations within the oil patch. Monitoring air could be developed into a centre for alternative quality will focus on the presence of low energy research. This idea is still in the concentrations of sulphide, sulphur dioxide and conceptual stage. However, there appears to be hydrogen sulphide. More comprehensive air July 10, 2000 LEGISLA TlVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3733

quality monitoring in the oil patch willl improve emergency reporting system involving 229 the Department's data respecting air quality in environmental accidents. The Department will this area, and will provide a basis on which to continue to dedicate required resources to this develop amendments to regulations governing area to ensure that incidents of environmental the design and operation of oil and gas facilities concerns continue to receive priority attention. in Manitoba. East side of Lake Winnipeg development. Manitoba has developed a royalty and Manitoba Conservation will be undertaking a production tax regime that is targeted at new major planning initiative for the east side of attracting investment in Manitoba's oil and gas Lake Winnipeg. The new initiative will involve resources, while maximizing the benefits to the local communities and other interest groups that province. Manitoba competes with other will make recommendations on wide area plan­ jurisdictions, and internationally for this ning. The stakeholders involved in the new investment. Even with the modest level of planning initiative will include First Nations, Manitoba's petroleum resources, the Province industry, the provincial government and many must continually assess its fiscal regime to others. ensure that it is reasonable and competitive. The recent increase in crude oil prices led to an For the process to work effectively, the input increased royalty and production tax revenue in of First Nations, Pine Falls Paper Company and Manitoba, but it has not, to date, resulted in a other agencies and groups which have a keen significant increase in exploration and develop­ interest in the future development on the east ment. Through consultation with industry side of Lake Winnipeg is needed. A consultation stakeholders, the Department has prepared a on the Sustainable Development Implementation package of enhancements to the oil and gas report indicated a need for wide area planning. fiscal regime designed to stimulate inwstment in With all of the activity on the east side, it was the province. In most cases, these are seen to be recommended that planning start in this region. revenue neutral, given that increased investment The process will see the participants make will expand the revenue base. It is our intention recommendations to the Government regarding to introduce a regulatory amendment in this the plan. Information and materials and the regard in the near future. support of government staff will be available to the stakeholders to help in the planningprocess. Ethanol industry expansion. Sincf: the early 1980s, a small fuel ethanol industry has existed The Land Information Division of the in Manitoba. The use of ethanol by Manitobans Department of Conservation is undertaking a as an alternative renewable fuel blended with number of important activities in the current gasoline to form gasohol has grown slowly over year. These include the ongoing development the years. However, technological improve­ and operation of the Canada Map Sales ini­ ments, rising prices of gasoline, and the tiative, which is the first e-mail commerce site of environmental and economic benefits associated the Manitoba Government. It has the potential to with the production of ethanol have created make Manitoba the premier map distributor in increased demand for this fuel to the point where Canada. expansion of the fuel ethanol industry within Canada is on the horizon. During this fiscal year The division will also be publishing a Manitoba Conservation will work with the comprehensive volume of Manitoba place names industry, and with the departments of Finance, as a millennium project. This will provide a Industry, Trade and Mines, and Agriculture to narrative of approximately 10 000 names, inclu­ facilitate the growth of this renewable energy ding the geographic descriptions of their location industry for the benefit of all Manitobans. and, where possible, the historical background on the origin of the names. Particular importance Emergency response. The Department con­ will be placed on mapping in the North to tinues to respond to numerous environmental support the land claims process for treaty land emergencies during the 1999-2000 fiscal year. entitlement in the Northern Flood Agreement, The Department received 401 calls to the mining exploration, forestry operations and 3734 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

information gathering for biodiversity and made in building sustainable alternatives to environmental impact assessment before any waste disposal. These include the stewardship major development occurs. program fo r used oil. filters and containers which has completed its second year of This is particularly true with regard to operation with good results; continued expansion potential development on the east side of Lake of municipal recycling programs; renewed Winnipeg and developments being considered in business plans fo r the Manitoba Product connection with . Mapping products and Stewardship Corporation; a Tire Stewardship programs that are important for these initiatives Board. A stakeholder process for developing a are the digital ortho-photo program satellite data, sustainable program for the management of including Landsat 7, and a digital GPS cor­ household hazardous waste in Manitoba resulted rection program. This base information is being in recommendations to the Minister. distributed throughout government by its Manitoba land initiative program. A national survey undertaken to monitor progress in the waste minimization effort Finally, the division is also active in the indicates that in 1998 Manitobans disposed of Rails to Trails program. It is providing support 850 kilograms of waste per capita. This for this initiative as part of the development of represents a decrease of 20 percent fr om 1988 recreational trails in the province and is levels. The Used Oil. Filters and Containers particularly supportive of the Trans Canada Trail Stewardship Regulation makes it illegal fo r a program. company to sell lubricating oil products unless it is registered and belongs to the province-wide I want to now go into the Livestock stewardship program operated by the Manitoba Stewardship Initiative. On March 3. 2000, this Association fo r Resource Recovery Corporation, government announced its Livestock Steward­ MARRC. ship Initiative, outlining a commitment aimed at protecting the environment and ensuring the * (16:00) future of the province's livestock industry. The announcement indicated a commitment to In 1999, Manitobans purchased 26.5 million increased environmental inspections of all litres of oil and 1.5 million oil filters and livestock operations over 400 animal units; an generated I million kilograms of oil container increase in the number of field audits fo r manure waste. Of these amounts, MARRC recovered management plans starting in 2000; increased 11.5 million litres of used oil, 1.25 million oil inspections on all operations in designated filters and 90 000 kilograms of oil container sensitive areas of agri-Manitoba; increased waste. monitoring of surface and groundwater; updating groundwater sensitivity maps; an inspection MARRC's activities have been significant, program for all constructed manure storage substantially increasing the recovery of facilities to ensure that surface and groundwater lubricants in Manitoba. MARRC currently has are not being impacted. 107 companies with membership in the Association. Compliance audits undertaken on There was also a commitment made to MARRC's behalf indicate the association has conduct an independent review to examine the achieved a level playing field. As part of their present state of soils and the sustainability of membership agreement, lubricant stewards must long-term manure application to land in agri­ pay MARRC environmental handling charges Manitoba. The government has recently initiated based on product sales in Manitoba. There were a comprehensive public consultation process 28 ecocentres established in partnership with regarding Manitoba's livestock industry. municipal governments and four privately operated depots in Manitoba as at the end of The Department continues to carry out 1999. activities to achieve the province's commitment of reducing solid waste going to waste disposal The Manitoba Product Stewardship Cor­ grounds. Significant progress continues to be poration, established in 1995, is a non-profit July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3735

statutory corporation funded by a distributor­ The diversion of organic waste through paid, 2-cent-per-beverage-container levy estab­ composting improved construction and demo­ lished by the multimaterial stewardship lition waste management practices and the regulation. The Corporation has ensured that development of a waste management facility. over 95 percent of Manitoba's population. 160 Operating guidelines have been identified as municipalities, have access to comprehensive areas in need of further development. material recycling services. In '98-99, the Corporation collected $6.5 million through the Since 1995, the Crop Protection Institute, beverage-container levy, paid out $4.6 million in representing major pesticide suppliers in municipal recycling support payments and Canada, has funded a program to drain, shred, recovered 35 000 metric tonnes or 40 percent of crush and dispose of used pesticide container a possible 87 000 metric tonnes of eligible material. Records show that return rates on material. pesticide containers sold in Manitoba have increased from 35 percent in 1995-96 to 90 percent in 1999-2000. A total of 5.2 million The Tire Stewardship Board's Scrap : Tire empty pesticide containers have been removed Recycling Program was established by the tire from Manitoba's environment. Over a million stewardship regulation in April of '95 to and a half pounds of metal have been recycled establish and maintain a scrap tire recycling into rebar. Shredded plastic has been sent to program in Manitoba. The Tire Stewardship energy recovery facilities in the United States Board is funded by a $3 levy on all new tires and to Aylmer, Ontario, for recycling into fence sold fo r use on licensed vehicles in Manitoba. As posts and curb stops. of December 31, 1999, the Board has paid processors over $9 million and municipalities The Department's Pollution Prevention over $600,000 to collect and recycle over 5 program promotes pollution prevention as the million passenger tires equivalent. There are environmental management strategy of choice in virtually no stockpiles of tires left in Manitoba. partnership with the Alliance of Manufacturers The program is now recycling one tir,e fo r every & Exporters Canada and Environment Canada. tire sold in the province, and it is considered one In 1999-2000, the program supported the of the most successful programs of its kind in Manitoba Green printing project comprised of North America. 19 member companies who participated in a variety of pollution-prevention activities such as The development of regional waste the Manitoba Green Procurement Networks print management systems continues to be pursued. shop audits. A Manitoba pollution prevention Ten regional management systems fo r solid guide fo r printers was developed. The Manitoba waste involving three or more partners were Green Metal-Finishing Project, which promotes operating in 1999-2000. Over 50 waste transfer the goals of the national toxic reduction stations have been established replacing local initiative, contacted 38 firms and conducted 10 waste disposal grounds, while an additional eight planned visits. regional waste management partnerships are in The wood finishers in Manitoba initiated a the planning stages. To further encourage the sector-wide approach to pollution prevention establishment of regional integrated waste opportunities and agreed to hire a project co­ management systems, the Department co­ ordinator to provide technical support to member ordinated the activities of the Regional Waste companies. The autobody/auto-repair sector also Management Task Force. The Task Force initiated a sector-wide approach to pollution submitted its report, a Regional Solid Waste prevention opportunities and has a project co­ Management Action Plan and recommendations ordinator to provide technical support to member to the Minister in January 2000. The report companies. proposes a vision for a province-wide solid waste management system to minimize risk to The Manitoba Golf superintendents human health and the environment, and support association distributed an environmental self­ fo r continued growth of the Manitoba economy. assessment checklist in 1999 to ensure sound 3736 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

environmental practices are fo llowed at The Department is continuing to work with Manitoba golf courses. a group of stakeholders to develop recom­ mendations on how these materials should be The program is also engaged in voluntary managed in the fu ture. The Department expects pollution prevention partnerships with the to release a discussion document and a draft Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the regulation based on the committee's recom­ Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce and the prairie mendations fo r a public review and comment in Grain Elevator Association. Program staff the fa lL with implementation planned fo r 2001. continue to provide on-site pollution prevention technical assistance to businesses and industry The purpose of the Sustainable associations. Development Innovations Fund is to provide fu nding fo r the development. implementation The Ozone Depleting Substances Act was and promotion of environmental innovation and established in 1990 to restrict the use of ozone­ sustainable development proj ects delivered by depleting substances and protect the strato­ government. industry and community groups. A spheric ozone layer. In partnership with the total of $3.4 million generated by the Manitoba Ozone Protection Industry Asso­ environmental protection taxes on disposable ciation, MOPIA, established in 1994, the diapers and non-deposit alcohol beverage Province's goal is to reduce and eventually containers as well as retail sales tax revenues eliminate the release of ozone-depleting generated on waste reduction and prevention substances into the atmosphere. levies has been allocated to the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund fo r the fiscal In 1999-2000, Manitoba amended The year 2000-200 I. Ozone Depleting Substances Act to prevent. reduce and eliminate the release of ozone­ While details on the use of this fu nd will be depleting substances into the atmosphere and announced. some of these funds will be used to any harm or injury that could be caused by the promote programs such as the Environment substances or products that are made to be used, Youth Corps. a new initiative to improve our or are used. in place of ozone depleting ability to manage solid waste and to support substances. developments to address climate change. The majority of the monies in the fu nd will be used Through partnerships with other govern­ to provide strategic grants fo r projects put ments, organizations, institutions and provincial fo rward by government. industry and com­ agencies, the pollution prevention program is munity groups. Aboriginal organizations and participating in several effective projects that First Nations communities. These projects will include energy, water and equipment moni­ demonstrate benefit to the environment and toring, audits, retrofits, re-use, education and support the fu rther development of sustainable public awareness. communities.

Household hazardous waste is any material Our government is very committed about the in a home that may endanger human health or risk we fa ce from climate change. Our best the environment if disposal is not managed scientists are telling us that we face fundamental properly. This includes old paint, ammunition, changes to our landscape in the coming decades batteries, pesticides, poisons, used oil and and everything possible needs to be done today products containing mercury. The Department to study these potential impacts and develop will continue to fund the household hazardous adaptation strategies to adjust accordingly. Our waste collection in Manitoba at the same level as department is leading this effort fo r Manitoba. it did last year. This program recovered 313 We are engaged with our fe deral, provincial and tonnes of household hazardous waste last year at territorial partners from across Canada in a a total cost of $420,000. national process to work with stakeholders and the public in order to develop a better scientific * (16:10) understanding of climate change and to better July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3737

protect its impacts upon our environm1�nt, health emission reduction targets fo r our own and economy, to raise awareness and to develop government operations to ensure we are leading prudent but effective strategies to reduce by example. We will also set out an action plan emissions of harmful pollutants into our air to achieve these reductions across government which intensifies these problems. operations. We will also undertake public and stakeholder consultations to raise awareness and The signed the help inform and direct our government actions Kyoto Protocol in 1997, and in doing so, on broader mitigation activities and ensure signalled its intention to ratify and implement funding is in place to stimulate both public and the related requirements to reduce emissions of private sector innovation and excellence in this greenhouse gases. Manitoba will ensure that area. when Canada decides to ratify and implement this protocol, we will do our part and play a This course of action will ensure that constructive role in current national discussions Manitoba shows leadership on important matters relating to this matter. of developing adaptation strategies for our prairie, boreal forests, and northern coastal In addition to the very grave consequences regions and further that our mitigation actions we in our future generations face with impacts are effective while taking maximum advantage that may arise from climate change, I recognize of our natural endowment of hydroelectric the need fo r us to take careful and well-informed electricity which will be in increasing demand as actions right now to ensure we do not dis­ Canada and the U.S. lessen their reliance upon advantage Manitoba industries in the agriculture, thermally generated electricity. energy, and transportation sectors which could be impacted by greenhouse gas mitigative On the international water issues, as you policies. probably know, approximately 70 percent of Manitoba's surface water flows to us from other Despite the potential economic risks of jurisdictions including Saskatchewan, Alberta, curbing our emissions of greenhouse gases, I North Dakota Minnesota and Ontario. Our believe the cost of doing nothing will be far department continues to work closely with our worse both in the environmental and in health upstream neighbours to ensure that sufficient and economic ways. volumes of good quality water are provided to us. We have developed a close working Our largest trading partner, the United relationship with Environment Canada on States, is busying itself to reduce i.ts reliance interprovincial water issues and with both upon carbon-intensive forms of energy. While Environment Canada and Foreign Affairs on many predict they will not ratify the Kyoto international trade and on international water accord, we are informed by business people that issues. there is a high probability of non-tariff trade barriers being put in place on our southern Ongoing trans-boundary activities to protect border related to climate change mitigation. water in Manitoba include participating actively with Saskatchewan, Alberta, and Canada Canada must be doing more to prepare fo r through the Prairie Provinces Water Board to these scenarios. Manitoba will continue to work protect water flows and water quality in the to ensure our industries are not disadvantaged eastward flowing Prairie streams and partici­ and fu rther that we are poised to takl! advantage pating with Saskatchewan, North Dakota, the of the many opportunities which will arise to United States federal government and Canada to increase our exports of knowledge, technology, implement the Souris River bilateral water and manufactured goods to assist others to quality agreement. reduce their greenhouse gas emission:;. The water quality objectives and the nutrient More specifically, our department is pre­ management strategy. In mid-April of this year paring a climate change action plan for Manitoba our department released two documents fo r which will set out aggressive greenhouse gas widespread public review. These documents 3738 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

identified measures that will lead to a greater Mr. Chairman, I will repeat what we protection of water quality in Manitoba. The first repeated and what we said at the time of the document entitled "Manitoba Water Quality announcement of the combined department of Standards, Objectives and Guidelines" proposes our continued reservations about the potential a large number of changes to our existing water conflicts that, in my judgment, has been brought quality objectives. about by the merging of these two departments whether. in fact, they occur or not. But its These water quality standards, objectives perception in the general public will. I think, in and guidelines as proposed are the most time cause this Minister and this government comprehensive in Canada. They incorporate our considerable problems. That is an observation, It extensive work with other Canadian jurisdictions is a massive challenge that this Minister and this through the Canadian Council of Ministers of government has in trying to prevent that, and I Environment. They build on our own con­ wish them well. siderable experience in applying water quality objectives in Manitoba since the mid-1 970s. Let me also acknowledge. certainly as the They provide some unique approaches to water Minister did. that it is my belief that he has an quality protection in Manitoba. excellent staff throughout the Department. They work tirelessly on behalf of the many respon­ Mr. Chairperson, that concludes my opening sibilities that they have, particularly the field remarks with respect to the Department's 2000- staff often working in isolated circumstances 2001 Estimates. I look forward to the much fac ing situations as they try to carry out the poli­ detailed discussions on the Estimates as we go cies ofthe Department and of the Government. forth.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Mr. Chairman, I repeat the concern that we Conservation fo r those comments. Do the have in the Official Opposition about the Official Opposition critics, the Honourable potential conflict of interest. I know fo r instance. Member for Lakeside (Mr.Enns) and the and I would just like this as a little example that Honourable Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. some members of the Committee, the Member Maguire), have any opening comments? fo r Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). the Member fo r Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). certainly will recall it * (16:20) was not that many years ago that the minister of Natural Resources. back in '91. had an enthu­ Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): Yes, Mr. siastic interest in a particular project and Chairman. They will be brief. I want to thank the partnered with an organization known as Ducks Honourable Minister for the very extensive Unlimited at Oak Hammock Marsh. We were as comments about the very extensive and large a department involved. department that he now has responsibility fo r.

I note just fo r the record that you are not the As I say, I was an enthusiastic supporter of first Minister of Conservation in the service of the project. Can you imagine the furor that the government. For many years, up until 1969, it Member fo r Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) would have was the Department of Agriculture and raised if I were also the watchman on the dog Conservation that recognized the importance of that had to grant the environmental licensing? At conservation then and today. Agriculture, of least there was a separation of those two course, many people will acknowledge is very functions. As it was, she did a pretty good job often the activity that impacts very directly on along with many others at that time. Since then, the natural landscape, natural habitat fo r of course, that project has grown to national wildlife, water supplies, our use and dedication acclaim. The birds, the children, the people of of land and so fo rth. It was my privilege to be Manitoba, and, indeed, people of all of Canada the last Minister of Agriculture and Con­ are enjoying that project. It is that conflict that servation in the year 68-69, when last that title would have been expressed in a very clear and was used by government department. demonstrable way to me. July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3739

You, Mr. Minister, in your department, are was known, also housed the mines safety going to be fac ing developmental decisions in inspectors in the Department. The then­ fo restry, in mining. You are fac ing them every opposition, the New Democrats, howled that that day in agriculture with the expanded livestock was terrible conflict of interest and that the facilities. On the one hand, you are going to have safety inspectors ought not to be in the division to provide the opportunity to allow n:sponsib\e, of Mines in the department of Natural sustainable development to proceed and, at the Resources. They should be housed in the same time, also be responsible for the licensing Department of Labour, under the Workplace and the concern of the environmental issues Safety and Health, and quite fr ankly, I concurred involved. I wish you well, Mr. Minister, in that with that, and within a few years that, in fact, task. I will be watching. took place. Having the very people, the inspectors who check on the mining operations What I am fe arful of, of course, is that the on a weekly or a monthly basis or on a daily policing role of your department will predomi­ basis being housed within the Department that nate, and development will simply shut down in on the other hand works hopefully aggressively the province of Manitoba. Yes, I agn:e that if it and progressively with the mining community to becomes simply that difficult, it be-comes that develop mines was seen as a possible conflict of difficult for the people at Pine Falls to get the interest in terms of their being able to carry out additional substantial cutting rates that they need without prejudice their very responsible jobs of and that the fo restry people within the inspecting mine safety. department of Natural Resources say are available in a sustainable way, but if the pressure Mr. Chairman, I cite these fe w cases. We are fr om the environmental side is such, or if it going to go through the Estimates, time perceived to be such, it simply will not proceed. permitting. I want to conclude with one further comment, because I say this very sincerely. Of course, that is true in many other Departments like Natural Resources, Agri­ instances. We have some very specific issues culture, Highways, these are the departments that involve the mining industry where the that contributed in a very substantial way, in a opportunity of exploiting that particular resource dollar and personnel and resources way, that coupled against other policies of this govern­ made it possible for the former government to ment, and not just this governm«::nt but of bring about a state of fiscal security to the previous governments, involving ·�ndangered problem, that enabled us to bring in balanced spaces, involving parkland, involving other budgets, which this government now embraces. natural habitat. The question is what is the role But there was a price to pay fo r it. Departments of the Department. Is it not partly develop­ like Natural Resources. the Department that we mental? If somebody wants to come and invest are dealing with. and the Honourable Member three, fo ur, five hundred million dollars, and for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) knows whereof I create two, three hundred, five hundred jobs, speak, there are many people in Water particularly in the area that the Minister is we\1 Resources, many people in Parks, the resources fam iliar with, the North, is that not a worthwhile that were curtailed, they made a very significant activity of the department? Or does the propo­ contribution. nent think. well, in Manitoba, gosh, you know, the Minister that we are looking for to a\ly us I do not see in these Estimates anywhere with, to support this proj ect, he is also the near the kind of resources that this minister and Minister that is going to send environmental this department need to carry out the respon­ watchdogs on us, we are going to have to get sibilities that you currently have, leave alone the past them on that. Those are some very ones that you are reaching out to have. You are immediate concerns that I express. going to have 3000 permits from farmers on your desk every week, Mr. Minister, because of I can remember, fr om my own experience, the legislation that you are proposing. You know you have taken back the mines and energy part what 25 000 litres of water is? You want to in this merger. Back in '68-69 the Department of transfer that from one corner of your farm to Mines and Natural Resources, as it at that time another comer of your farm. We are passing 3740 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

legislation that says we now have to have Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. somebody in the department of Water Resources Chairman. I, too, would like to put a fe w send a person out there, get a permit from this comments on the record in regard to the department to do that. Minister's opening comments and congratulate him on being appointed Minister of Conser­ * (16:30) vation, which, as my fe llow Member fo r Lakeside has just indicated. will be a tremen­ That is a massive undertaking, and I do not dously large job. see, Mr. Minister, the kind of support you have in doing that. What it means: intolerable delays. I, too, want to put on the record the concerns You are reaching out more and more intrusively, that I have about the combination of the and that is your right. You people have elected department of Natural Resources as well as this government, people in the ministry. the First Environment, and as the Environment critic in Minister has made you minister responsible. I our caucus. fe el that there are a number of issues am not challenging that, but I will tell you the that need to be undertaken in the province of inevitable result will be that there will be more Manitoba and have some concerns about some and more fr ustration, more and more delays, and of the ones in regard to a fe w of the bills that we the very same municipalities that are currently have seen coming fo rward from the ministers so supporting that bill in three or fo ur years will be fa r in regard to how they are going to be handled looking for its repeal, simply because of the and how they are going to be implemented. My inability of the Department to respond in an cohort has mentioned one of them, and that is in appropriate time frame to the requests that you the area of fi nancing these departments. It is a will have. large undertaking to be the developer and the regulator in regard to trying to promote more job creation and do it in a sustainable manner. I make the argument and I support that. I think the fo rmer department of Environment did not have the sta:ff.. did not have the resources to The Member fo r Lakeside (Mr. Enns) has carry out the regulations that were being passed indicated that he was the last Agriculture and in '96, '97, '98 and '99, and I do not see that they Conservation minister in the Province of are being particularly augmented here, Mr. Manitoba, and I would like to say that as a Minister, and this is just the start. I mean, if I graduate of university, I remember that believe and if I believe what I hear. what is particular period of time and the work that he coming out of your office and what is coming was doing in that area. He has also been the out of the Minister of Agriculture's office. you minister of Natural Resources and the minister are going to have a far more extensive review of just preceding the present Minister of Agri­ the whole question of intensive livestock. culture (Ms. Wowchuk) fr om Swan River. He has had the opportunity of bringing forth many sound policies and developmental activities in That portends more regulations, more things the Province of Manitoba and has probably more to police. Mr. Minister, you are going to need a experience, obviously, than anyone in this lot more help is what I am saying, and quite Legislature in regard to how that could proceed fr ankly I am here to help you try and get it. and the positive benefits that it has had for the Through those difficult years of tight budgets it Province of Manitoba. was the darlings of government, Health, Education, Family Services and Justice that were allowed to continue to get additional monies. I would like to say that, while I certainly You have one of the hard-working departments have not had that kind of political experience in of government and one that impacts most government, having just been elected this past directly on very, very many citizens of September, I have had a large amount of Manitoba. Quite frankly, it needs greater support practical experience, having farmed for the past than I am seeing in these Estimates, particularly nearly thirty years. I guess, if you count the days with the moves that you have already publicly when my father first put me on a tractor, well announced. Thank you. over thirty years experience in that area, as well July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3741

as being a farm leader in Manitoba and Western done on a more self-sustaining kind of basis Canada. That has given me a good base to rather than dealing with a lot of, if I would say, provide some comments, I think, in regard to, government funding in regard to the develop­ not only the activities that take place or have ment of those projects. They have always been taken place here in Manitoba, but my dealings developed, and many have fallen back. It is great with ministers in other provinces on these issues to push from the production side, but the as well. marketing side is where the key is in that whole area. There has to be some major agreements, So as we look at the changes that the and I do not know whether this minister is Minister is making in areas like The Sustainable prepared or the Government is prepared to go Development Act, the Sustainable Development ahead on a more do-it-alone basis in those areas Initiatives Fund, a number of the environmental than the Canadian government has been willing areas that he has spoken about today, I would to do at this point or not. So I look fo rward in also like to just put on the record that II think that Estimates to hearing the Minister's views on there may be-and I was pleased to hear him some of those areas as well. mention it today-some real concern about the levels that the Canadian government has set for There are a number of areas where the us to attain in the Kyoto Conferenc'e that was Minister has indicated, and I have to thank him held in, I believe, '96 that the then Minister of as well for his comments that he made to us in Agriculture, Mr. Goodale, and Ms. Stewart. at briefing us on fo ur of the bills that he brought that time Environment Minister for Canada, laid forward last week. We still have a few to go, but out fo r us to try to attain in Canada. I was glad to appreciate his comments on those and look see that the Minister today has indicated that he fo rward to further developments and further will be coming fo rth with a number of the levels definition on some of those bills from the that he fe els responsible fo r Manitoba to attain in Minister in regard to the process that we had that area as well. before us here in regard to Bill 5, The Wildlife Act, Bill 6 and the bulk exports of water, 15 and The Minister has outlined that the oil and provincial takeover of municipal jurisdiction and gas industry is an integral part of Manitoba's drainage again from the individual farmers, and economic development and that there are a Bill 21 and the levels of the flood plain in the number of issues that he has point{:d out that valley here as well and other areas that that need to be dealt with in that area. I am proud to might be appropriate. say that most of that activity takes place in my home constituency of Arthur-Virden. We want So, with that, Mr. Chairman, I think I will to make sure that everything is done in that close my remarks. I would just like to say that, district to make sure that things are done in an as a new member, I certainly look forward to the environmentally friendly manner, but that we procedure of the process here of Estimates with continue to see the development that will help the Minister and hope that we can move along place Manitoba's needs in energy more in a self­ quickly, but I do have a number of fe llow sustaining role than perhaps being dependent on members who do want to, from time to time, join energy from other jurisdictions. us, if that is fine with proceedings, and ask questions on particular issues that might be The ethanol issue, from a farmer's point of important to our side of the House, but probably, view, is a very serious one that we need to take more importantly, to individual situations that into consideration, and perhaps, as fuel prices may arise in their constituencies. increase. there will be much more ability to look fo rward to opportunities in that area. I would be Mr. Chairperson: We thank both critics from glad to share the experiences that I have had the Official Opposition for those remarks. Under with some of the plants that have been Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's developed in Ontario in regard to more Salary is traditionally the last item considered sustainable development through the ethanol fo r the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, industry, as well as the ongoing ones we have we shall defer consideration of this item and here in our own province, but these: should be now proceed with consideration of the next line. 3742 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

Before we do that, we invite the Minister's whole amalgamation process, and in particular staff to join us at the table, and we would ask where the changes might be in this kind of line. that the Minister introduce his staff present. I will ask the Minister to introduce his staff. Mr. Lathlin: In answer to the Member's question, I believe he is aware that two Mr. Lathlin: Our Deputy Minister Norm departments were amalgamated: the fo rmer Brandson; our ADM Harvey Boyle; Mr. department of Environment as well as the Podolsky fr om Administration and Finance. department of Natural Resources. As of today, we have one minister. In other words, one * (16:40) minister's position has been eliminated. We have eliminated one deputy minister's position and Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister for then secretary to the Deputy Minister: also two introducing his staff. We will now proceed to assistants, one executive assistant and one line l.(b)( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits special assistant to the Minister; a total of three $434,200, on page 37 of the main Estimates secretarial clerk support positions, fo r a total of book. Shall the item pass? eight positions. So that would comprise the reduction. We will ask the Member fo r Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire) or the Member fo r Lakeside (Mr. Mr. Maguire: I would assume that that is along Enns). The flooris open for questions. the same line as in Other Expenditures, in that whole area as well. Mr. Maguire: No, Mr. Chairman, not at this time. We are not prepared to pass the Minister's Mr. Lathlin: The answer is yes to that question. Salary. There are a number of questions that we It has to do with the cost of operations fo r those would like to ask in the process before we get to areas that have been eliminated. that point. Mr. Maguire: Okay, Mr. Chairman, I will pass Mr. Chairperson: I did not ask fo r the that. Minister's Salary. We are starting on l.(b) Executive Support. We are leaving out the Mr. Chairperson: I will read, Resolution Minister's Salary to the end. 12.1.(b) Executive Support ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $434.200--pass; (2) Other Mr. Maguire: There is a great deal of difference Expenditures $123.800--pass. in this area I guess, as we start into this whole process, we have a lot of issues that we would We will move on to section (c) like to bring forth and ask questions on. But, as Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Em­ we, the Member fo r Lakeside and I, indicated in ployee Benefits $969,300. Shall the line pass? our opening comments, the reply to the Minister's opening comments, we have a good Mr. Maguire: Can the Minister just explain the deal of concern about the whole process of differences that might take place in that area as amalgamation, and we have many questions well? around that whole area. Mr. Lathlin: The numbers that the Member is I think that this line exactly, Executive referring to has to do with an ADM position. A Support, starts in by leading into that whole position that was seconded to the Habitat process of clarification in the Department, if we Heritage Corporation and has since been could get some information from the Minister in eliminated, thereby causing that reduction as regard to that. One of them is, of course, Salaries well. and Employee Benefits, as we start into that whole area. With over $350,000 change in that Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, yes, I note that particular line, I wonder if perhaps the Minister there was one fu ll-time senior staff Member could give us some background in regard to that there dropped from that area. So that was the July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3743

ADM position then in Habitat and Heritage? I Mr. Lathlin: The reductions that we have been am prepared to pass that. able to realize thus fa r in our integration and amalgamation processes, the Member correctly Mr. Chairperson: Line 12.1.( c) Administrative pointed out in the administrative support, come Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits to roughly $450,000. Now, that figure $969,300-pass; (2) Other Expenditures constitutes reductions that have been, for the $450,900-pass. most part, up fr ont. As soon as you amalgamate the two departments, you no longer need two We will go on to (d) Financial Services (1) ministers, so therefore a saving is realized. A Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,657,700- reduction is realized right off the bat without pass. (b) (2) Other Expenditures $4 15,900. Shall doing too much other reorganization. the line pass? But as we delve much fu rther into the Mr. Maguire: I note with interest that there is a reorganization integration, we are going to be slight increase in those Other Expenditures. Can realizing some more savings and reductions. that be outlined? Financial Services, Salaries and Exactly how much we will be able to realize in Employee Benefits are virtually ident:tcal. This is terms of further amalgamation or as we complete close enough, but can there perhaps be some amalgamation, I could not say at this point, but detail there? we are expecting to realize some more cost savings. Mr. Lathlin: The slight increase that the Member refers to apparently has to do with the Mr. Maguire: Mr. Minister, those then would purchase of a computerized cash register at the not be reflected in these Estimates at this time. Saulteaux avenue offices. Apparently it has to do with licences. where you go and purchase your Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, the savings that have licences. So there is a computerized cash been identified so far have been in the register. administrative support area. The other savings to be realized have not been included in the Mr. Maguire: Just licensing fo r- Budget.

Mr. Lath lin: For fishing, hunting. Mr. Maguire: So, Mr. Chair, they are ob­ viously, just for clarification to make sure that *(16:50) we know that we are looking at the 1999-2000 numbers in those columns on the right-hand side Mr. Maguire: That is what I would have as opposed to the 2000-2001 on the left-hand presumed but just fo r the record, Mr. Chair. side, the numbers that the Department has used for the 1999-2000 Estimates are the numbers of l note with regard to the whole pmcess here going back and looking at the combination of that the Administration and Finance is down. We Natural Resources and Environment to come up just passed Administrative Services, and we are with those fo r 1999-2000 comparison numbers? looking at the Financial Services in this department which is up just slightly, while we Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, yes, the answer is in the have about a $450,000 saving in Administration administrative support area, but there are other and Finance, the top line on the whole savings in other areas other than administrative department, with a good deal of that in the support. removal of a minister, perhaps, if you will, and that kind of staff saving. Mr. Maguire: Again, for clarification, the Would the Minister be able to give us any determination of the 1999-2000 Estimates are detail as to whether, in fact, that really makes up purely a compilation of the numbers that were in the fu ll difference, that the saving here was Natural Resources last year and Environment about $450,000 in regard to Administration and combined, or was there some other means of Finance? determining how those numbers were achieved? 3744 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

Mr. Lathlin: The answer is yes. The numbers salaries fo r the ones that were there? Where does that you see there have not been amalgamated. the increase come from? as what has been happening in the executive office. The numbers that would have been in Mr. Lathlin: I think the Member will know that, Environment and Natural Resources, those are if you look at the staff numbers, they have not the numbers that you see there. Those have not changed. The increase is reflected. I believe, in been really, truly combined yet. Those are the staff positions that had to be reclassified in separate from the administrative support and the order to maintain a complement of people with executive. that kind of expertise. There was reclassification done. salaries increased to maintain the staff * (17:00) level.

Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, I am still not clear Mr. Maguire: So there was an increase then in there. I thought I was a minute ago. The right­ the qualifications required fo r the number of hand line in 1999-2000, if I was to go and take people, the number of people being the same, the Natural Resources Estimates as well as the but an increase in their qualifications to do the Environment and Natural Resources Estimates job in that department? from last year and add them together. they would come up with the numbers on the right-hand Mr. Lathlin: The increase in that line did not side, from the '99-2000 numbers that are being necessarily mean that qualifications were put used for comparison now. higher. We needed to get more qualified people. I think the Member will also know that people in Mr. Latblin: Yes. the computer area. it is very, very competitive. You have to compete with other industries and Mr. Maguire: Okay. Thank you very much. other government departments where they are That gives us a good base to compare to if that is looking fo r people with those kinds of computer where we are at. We are prepared to pass the line skills. So that is why the increases in the salary on Financial Services. were made. in order to keep and attract people with the qualificationsthat we are looking fo r. Mr. Chairperson: Item I 2.1 .(d)(2) Other Expenditures $4 15.900-pass. Mr. Maguire: I am very well aware of the competitiveness of that industry right now. I 12.1.( e) Human Resource Services (I) have a sibling that exports computer information Salaries and Employee Benefits $764,000-pass; and technology into Japan and Asian countries (2) Other Expenditures $1 05,400-pass. where they are built. There is quite a bit of obviously competition in that whole area fo r 12.1.(f) Resource Information Systems (1) those kinds of people with expertise at this time. Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,046,000. Shall the line pass? I am just going by what the Minister said when he mentioned in his first answer that a Mr. Maguire: There is a $2 1 ,000 difference reclassification of some of the people in that there, by the looks of it, Mr. Chair. I just department was the reason fo r the increase in wondered if they could outline-it is one line that salaries. Can you just confirmthat? seems to be a little bit higher than the previous two areas combined. I am wondering what extra Mr. Lathlin: Obviously, there are two rookies resource fo r information systems was put in working here, a rookie minister and a rookie place there. MLA. So we will, I guess, kind of lead each other along here, as it were, but, yes, the first Mr. Lathlin: Yes. That increase constitutes the response really was there was no actual general salary increases that occurred. reclassification being done. It was a case of increasing the pay level in order to maintain the Mr. Maguire: Does that mean that there were staff people and also to attract other good people more staff hired in those areas or increased to come and work there. July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3745

Mr. Maguire: No, that is fine. So we are not really eliminating any environmental functions. They are still there. Mr. Chairperson: Line 12.1. Administration Our goal is to try to enhance those functions so and Finance (f) Resource Information Systems that they will carry out a more balanced ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,046,000- responsibility. pass; (2) Other Expenditures $385,600-pass. Mr. Enos: Well, Mr. Chairman, I just take this We will move on to Resolution 12.2. opportunity. once again, to reiterate what I said Regional Operations (a) Headquarters and in my brief opening statement. I appreciate that Operations (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits you have the different divisions in the Depart­ $1,415,700. Shall the line pass? ment but this is the heart and guts of the Department in many extents, in the sense that it Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, did the Minister muse provides the horses out there in the field to about, generally speaking, the regional services, respond to the citizens' concerns. the regional districts-any changt::s in the structure within the Department? Are they being Mr. Minister, you are going into this year contemplated? You have the five regions: with a fe w less dollars than last year. You are Northwest, Northeast, Central, Eastern, Western, asking the Department, you are asking the along with headquarters. Did I understand from Government to take on considerable additional the Minister's initial comments that there were responsibilities in water permitting alone. I could some structural changes being planned with site other issues. I am saying this as supportive boundaries being reorganized in this structure? as I can, as gently as I can. I am well aware that you can come back at me and tell me: What the Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, the answer to that hell did you do, Enns, when you were around? �uestio� is yes. We are, in fact looking at mtegratmg two regional offices, as we sit here. I will tell you what we did. We took 20 So, yes, there will be further restructuring at the percent away from this department. We took 20 regional leveL because we are looking at natural percent away from the department of Environ­ resources. environment. So we are doing that ment. And that was tough for your managers to right now. cope with. I acknowledge that. That is what has happened. You are adding with every new Mr. Enos: That was going to be mv second legislative initiative, and that is your prerogative, question. My question is: Generally. ho� are the Mr. Minister, but you are adding additional �nvironmental people being absorbed or merged responsibilities on the Department and I do not m the new department? Are the appropriate see that being reflected in any way in the bottom officers. field people, fo r instance, being located line figures. in the various regions? Are there environmentaL I do not know what you call them, inspectors or I support you like when we had the Minister something like that, located in th·� Westman of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) here a little while region, in the Eastern Region, and in the ago. He has a fancy $5-million to $6-million diffe rent regions of the Department? How is the empty, used courthouse for sale. Be the first one merger of staff coming together? in line to grab the money before it gets into some other department. We had the Minister of *(17:10) Finance here a little while ago. I wish they were here. Before your other colleagues in cabinet muscle you away from the Treasury Board, and I Mr. Lathlin: We already have environmental understand you sit on Treasury Board, sir, catch staff people in regional offices. They will yourself some dollars from them. continue to be there, but we are also looking at enhancing their responsibilities so that they can maybe take on responsibilities that might have Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, I gladly accept the been done by other fu nctions \\- ithin those Member's advice. In the Chamber I call him regional offices. elder. Every once in a while he acts up, and I 3746 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

have to remind him that he is my elder and I mental issue while a member from the look up to him and I seek his advice. After all, environmental division from our regional office he has been here ever since I can remember. in The Pas will be along with me. While we are When I was a little boy on the reserve in The there, we are also going to be discussing natural Pas, I already remembered people talking about resources issues and vice versa. but I think the Mr. Enns. So he is a person that people should bulk of the crossover will go from the natural go to fo r advice, because he has a whole life of resources officers to Environment. In other experience behind him. In a way I am being words. the fo rmer natural resources staff have a facetious, but in another way I am being very lot of environmental experience, so those people serious when I tell him that I will seek his will be working together with the environmental advice. Thank you. staff to fu lfilthe obligations that we have.

Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chair, you are dealing with Yes, we have given considerable advice and the line on Headquarters? direction to our staff in terms of how we want to achieve the integration of the two departments. Mr. Chairperson: We are dealing with line 2. We are not one year into the program yet, but so Regional Operations (a) Headquarters Opera­ far it seems to be working out pretty well. We tions (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. are getting positive comments fr om our staff down throughout to the district. from the Mr. Maguire: I still have some questions regional office to the district office. So fa r. I guess then myself. I appreciate the fact that the have been quite encouraged by what has been Minister would take guidance from my happening. colleague for his experience that we outlined earlier today. I certainly will from time to time Mr. Maguire: Just in that vein then. Mr. here as well, Mr. Chairman. I guess I would like Chairman. can the Minister indicate to us what to have some further clarification in regard to some of the difficulties he has encountered so fa r staff positions and that sort of thing and in the amalgamation process? headquarters operations. We have looked at it a little bit there under the Executive Support. but * (17:20) that was Administration and Finance. There is a whole diffe rent region here. The Member fo r Mr. Lathlin: Right off the bat, probably when Lakeside mentioned the boundaries, the regional you are dealing with people and when you support and staff that is necessary there. propose changes to an organization-! have gone through this myself in my work life at least three Has there been any guidance, given the times in the places that I have worked, and I continued responsibilities or the increased re­ have been on the receiving end of reogani­ sponsibilities of these headquarter operations? zational activities. I have also been on the other Can he clarify what those might be fr om side. directing reorganization in quite a large headquarters? And we can ask the other organization, quite diverse organization with departments later. various goals and objectives. If you look in the Canadian indices that list the occupations, Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, since we have been in organizations, our organization did not fit in government and since we have really taken on there. So I am talking about OCN where we did the task of integration and amalgamation, I think a large-scale organizational work. we have given our people considerable direction through meetings. I met with senior people, So I have gone through that myself, and regional office staff directors here, and it was not whenever you go through that kind of exercise, it that long ago where I gave the direction that staff is only natural that people are going to ask are to work together. questions. They do not know what is going to happen. You know, you meet with them some For example, if you are in The Pas, and an more, but even afteryou meet with them several example of this is this coming Friday I will be times, there are stiii questions. That is just going up to Pukatawagan to look at an environ- human nature. So people are apprehensive every July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3747

time you are proposing major changes. Well, jobs that they had? If that is the case, what role even minor changes, people will be appre­ does he see them playing? Will it be the same hensive. What is going to happen to me? Will I responsibilities as they had before? still be here, or where will I be working then? Whom will I be working with? Those are the Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, the answer to the kinds of questions. Probably for me, because I Member's question is, no, we really have not do not want anybody to run into any difficulties, reduced any front-line workers in the regional that is a difficult situation. But I cannot say it is offices. It was always our intention that we the most difficultsituation, because I know there maintain the front-line workers. Maybe next year are other major pieces of work that we have to when we go through the same process, we will go through yet. start to see some regional office activities being amalgamated, particularly those on the side of Whenever you are initiating a change like the NROs. that such as the one in Environment and Natural Resources, as the member said earlier, it is a big My attitude is that is where all the work gets responsibility. I agree with him who)(:heartedly. done at the worksite and that is where we need It is a big responsibility. It is an awesome people. If we are going to, as the Member for responsibility, especially when you are in Lakeside (Mr. Enns) has alluded earlier, aim to government. Things happen slow in government, do additional work, it would not make sense fo r slowly, and the slow pace has also be(:n difficult us to really cut back, I call them, the real for me. If we can achieve integrat ion much workers at the front line. So, that has been that faster, if we can get on a faster pace, 1 would be attitude right fr om day one. really happy. But, whenever you are dealing with people's lives, whenever you are dealing Mr. Maguire: So the roles and responsibilities with a well-ingrained way of doing things in the of those people as well will be the same? past and you are coming along to try and make some changes, well, yes, there is some Mr. Lathlin: The answer is yes. convincing to do. There are some changes to make, and it takes a long time. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister can indicate to us whether those players So, really, I guess the fact that it is taking are the field staff, the people in the front lines­ slow, it is frustrating. But, at the same time, I and I would agree with him on that-are still in think I would sooner go through that kind of a their offices. Are there any plans to amalgamate frustration and go through it slow and do it right offices in those areas if they are presently in rather than rushing through it and making all their same offices, or have any of them kinds of mistakes as we are trying to rush combined to date or will they be in the future? through because we are trying to satisfy a time line somewhere or some people. Mr. Lathlin: Currently, in some places like The Pas, fo r example, the Environment and the Mr. Maguire: Then maybe the Minister can NROs occupy the same building, the first and quickly give me an answer in regard to whether second floors, but there has been really no big or not the roles and responsibility-btcause as I movement to try and put everybody together. look through the section here on Regional We do not have to do that in Thompson and The Operations fo r each area of the province, there is Pas; they are already together. So, those are for very little cut. The Central Region, perhaps, has places like Thompson and The Pas where they had some staffing cutbacks in that area through already occupy one building. the combination of these departments, but it looks like virtually everyone has been In cases where the two divisions occupy maintained in their fo rmer jobs at least separate buildings, there is already a plan, if we can do it, to put everybody in one building so Can the Minister confirm that those players, that we can have the two divisions working that the people who are working in the field in together rather than housing the one division in his regional offices are still there with the same one building and then housing the other in 3748 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

another building and thereby still working like necessarily to exclude development, as the us-you or they-them. The bottom line is we want Member was trying to suggest earlier. We to have everybody in the end working together believe that we can achieve both. I think if we trying to achieve the same goals and objectives. listen to the people, all the stakeholders, I really believe that in the end everybody's needs can be * (17:30) addressed to some degree, maybe not always to the degree that each stakeholder would like to Mr. Maguire: I guess through my line of have their needs and concerns met. But I truly questioning here, Mr. Minister, I am just trying believe, I honestly believe that we can do it, to find out what your priority is, as the Minister because it has been done in other places. or your government, in regard to whether the amalgamation was done from the point of view So the answer to your question is this did of saving money or whether it was done from not start out as purely to save money. That has trying to bring the regulatory body and the become part of the equation, but really what we developmental agency of natural resources more wanted to do was to place emphasis on the closely together. Can you clarify that? This environment. We also wanted to. yes, save a might be more of a political question, I guess. little bit of money I guess. but I think the other obviously than an administrative one, because thing we wanted to do was we wanted to make obviously you have given us an indication from better use of our resources. a government that you want to combine these departments. I do not see much saving in We have all kinds of expert people working Administration and Finance. although 7 percent in various departments-Environment and is significant with reducing one minister. Natural Resources. Some are biologists, some are engineers. So our goal is to see if we can In regard to regional operations, obviously, make better use of those experts from both whether it is increased or decreased depends on organizations. and maybe their getting together the scope of the Government and what you and working closely together. we can achieve propose to bring forward in bills and legislation the results that we want to maybe sooner than and the direction that feels comfortable with in later. But. generally. that was our direction that this process. So can you give us some detail and right from Day One we had set out to try to clarification of that? create the balance.

Mr. Lathlin: Well, let me give the Member, Mr. When we came in. you know, I am not Chairman, a response. I do not know if it is a adverse to saying it. but, of course, it is going to political response, but I will give it to him look like you are favouring environmental anyway. protection and so on. But if you were there on October 6 or whenever I got into the position, During the campaign we had made obviously, it is going to look like there is going commitments that we were going to put a to be a very, very emphasis on environment priority on environmental protection. Indeed, because there is a balancing act to be done there. during the campaign, we made mention of the I think economic development, business east side of Lake Winnipeg. We made some development was way up here and environment commitments there as to what we would do if we was down here. So I am not saying we are going were in government. So some of the things that to bring down development, but what we are you are starting to see start unfolding, starting to saying is we are going to try to balance the two roll out, are some of those commitments we and see if we can achieve sustainability. made, such as the comprehensive land use study on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, one of the Everyone likes to talk about sustainable commitments we made. development. I was asked by the media people the other day, like, what do you mean by In conjunction with that, the other general sustainable development. Can you describe commitment we made was that we were going to sustainable development? So my response to place more emphasis on the environment but not him was, well, I do not want to give you a July I 0, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3749 dictionary definition ofsustainab le development, to share. We have to share with Mother Earth; but Jet me say this. I remember as a young that is the piece of meat he dug in a hole, and he person I was out on the trapline with my dad, put it there. Then he said we have to leave some and I learned a11 kinds of neat things about being behind fo r the hunter that is going to come here on the trapline in the spring, as we11 as in the fa11 tomorrow. and winter. I reca11 in the fa11 we were hunting moose, and lo and behold my dad wanted me to I think that was my first lesson of get my first moose. I was scared, because I was sustainable development. You go and harvest a sti11 a young person, but that was part of my natural resource. but you have to make sure that training. you leave something there for a future gene­ ration. At least, I did not learn it that way the day * (17:40) that we were there, but later on, as I got older, I started to understand what he meant. So I gave I also remember catching my fi rst mink at that kind of a definitionto the media person. I do the trapline with my dad. I was going to grab the not know if he understood it or not, but I gave it mink, and my dad grabbed me and threw me to to him anyway. the side and said, look, it is going to bite you. You know, as a kid learning how to trap, I came So anyway getting back to this question across this animal, and my first inclination was here, hopefu11y that is what we want to achieve, to grab a hold of it. If I did, he would have made sustainability in everything that we do. In the old probably good work of my hand. Subsequently, I days. I think a government department would learned that you do not pick up mink like that; develop goals and objectives, a work plan, a they can chew you up pretty good. So that was business plan, a budget, and out they would go my education in the trapline. in the bush. without considering what the results of this project would do to the other department. So I remember getting my first moose, and it from now on what we want to do is we want to was a big deal fo r my dad. I did not understand make sure the government departments will not half of it at the time, but later on I did. That was be a11owed to move forward with any planning, after we got the moose. To me it was like a with any budgeting, if there is no consideration ritual. You know, he got a piece of meat, and he being given to in their planning processes hung it up in a tree. Then he got another piece of sustainability. meat, and he dug a hole in the snow and put some meat there. Then he took another piece of In other words, every government meat and wrapped it up in a pouch, and that was department wi11 have to abide by the principles fo r us to bring home. For us, I thought, but later of sustainable development. So that is kind of a on I fo und out that, when we got home, the short answer to the Member's question, Mr. whole community had come out. Somehow they Chair. fo und out that we had got a moose, my dad and I, and I had killed it, so everybody came there. I Mr. Maguire: If that was a short answer, Mr. was so disappointed when they a11 took our Minister, I look fo rward to a long one sometime. moose away. You know, I thought we had gone into the bush to kill our own moose, and when You know. I would concur with the we got home, the whole community. elders, Minister, as I too hunted at about the same age came out with their pails and sleighs. They got that he did. with my father, and I will te11 you a big chunks of our moosemeat, and they took it little story there as well. This was a duck home, until there was nothing left. incident, though, with our shotgun rather than rifle. So those were the lessons that I learned, but the point of my story that I was going to make to An Honourable Member: Let us get back to you was, after he did a11 that, he said, we11, you the Estimates here, eh. have to share with the Creator, you know, like this is good. We got a moose, and we are going Mr. Maguire: I think you will see where I am to have fo od fo r quite a while here, but we have going with this. My father took me out to hunt 3750 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000 ducks when I was five. We were hiding in a Member fo r Lakeside (Mr. Enns), who has been blind, and you know the ducks were flying pretty the Minister in charge of some of those, having low over. He was taking shots at them, but-I will been Natural Resources and Agriculture mini­ speed it up-none of them were fa lling, and this ster, not at the same time, in regard to the last little voice from behind him said, Dad, when are recent, the last 30 years, let us put it that way, we going to get the ducks? He was a pretty good knows fu ll well those responsibilities. shot, but that particular day he did not bag anything and take it home. I would say that you have probably one of the most responsible positions of cabinet in this My point, Mr. Minister, is that. and I think government in regard to the future viability of you have really just outlined it, in regard to the economy of Manitoba. I hope that you having sustainable development. you have to continue to look at it from the point of view of have an industry around that, and you need to making sure that the rules and regulations that have something to sustain. You need to have you put in place are well talked out with the people who depend on that area, as you community that is involved, with all Manitobans depended on hunting, as I depended on farm ing. indeed. but with a clearer balance of opportunity I think we need to make sure that, not just the to provide industry and bring the industry in. farming industry, but the other industries that we Sometimes you have to give incentives. Maybe have developed, we allow Manitoba to prosper you need to talk to some of your other fe llow as well as make sure we do it right. cabinet ministers and Treasury Board personnel to make sure that that industry continues to be As a farm leader in western Canada, my attractive to Manitoba so that we maintain the greatest responsibility was to make sure that we 4.4. provided opportunities for farmers to develop their industry, but made sure that we did it right. The biggest problem we may have in the We have a wonderful opportunity here in fu ture with changes in other provincial juris­ Manitoba that maybe some of the other regions dictions is maintaining that workforce at a 4.4% in North America that we continue to refer to, unemployment rate, as was outlined today in the and in Europe as well, because I have had some House. I think that while we all have to make experience with the Holland situation, the sure that we look at sustainability in the fu ture, Netherlands, in regard to hog development there, we have to do it with an eye to, will that if you want to specify thatone, be specific on it. continue to employ people and give our young people the opportunity to stay in Manitoba. the We have a great opportunity to expand an opportunity to be here fo r the fu ture develop­ industry and provide sustainability fo r our ment of those resources? people and at the same time do it right by learning from the mistakes that others have * (17:50) made. I would say that I have had that opportunity to do that in transportation legis­ As I look at the Estimates books and see that lation across westernCanada, indeed Canada, by in regard to Regional Operations, just before we learning from what the Surface Transportation proceed with questions on maybe some of the board did in the United States. They made some individual lines that might be there under this pretty horrendous mistakes in regard to the cut­ area. I see with interest that you know your and-slash programs that they brought in in their outline here is that these regional offices, opera­ jurisdiction. Many American industries, not just tions will develop, operate, maintain provincial farmers, have indicated that they perhaps could parks, provincial waterways, and the water have done it a lot less painfully and with more control facilities and structures, which obviously due diligence. includes drainage, which we will deal with in the Committee tomorrow in regard to the Province I have always said here in Canada that we taking back control of water rights. have to do these things, we have to do them right. We have to develop them. I have the Can you define what your view is here in opportunity to do that. My partner here, the this area on the definition of provincial July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3751 waterways? Obviously I think I hav'e a pretty Mr. Lathlin: I will use the word "drainage" good understanding of what provincial parks are. then. I might have a question on that, but can you outline what you feel entails a provincial Mr. Maguire: So, fo r clarity, as I would waterway? understand, of course, it is the rivers. You used the Saskatchewan as an example and the Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, this morning I was tributaries that run into it and some of the small trying to get all these definitions clear in my creeks and waterways in the province. I have mind, because I have my own understanding of many of them that run into the Souris River that what a provincial waterway is, my own runs through Arthur-Virden. One of them runs definition, my own understanding of what it is. behind my house, so these are small creeks that Plus there are other phrases and sayings that I are natural drainways through the province of guess in government you have to get used to Manitoba. Are those, then, described as them, and sometimes fo r me they have a provincial waterways as well? diffe rent meaning. Mr. Lathlin: No, they have to be designated by I was arguing with people this morning that regulation. I was asking that question earlier a provincial waterway is like the Saskatchewan today. The Saskatchewan River is a provincial River, on the shores where I live. To me, that is waterway, but, apparently, such waterways have a provincial waterway, because it is a waterway to be designated by the government before that has all kinds of tributaries, all kinds of little becoming officially a provincial waterway. creeks flowing into the Saskatchewan River. Mr. Maguire: Could you give me some But, for our purposes, a provincial example then of a provincial waterway under the waterway, our definition is, first of all, desig­ definition that he used, that we have in the nated by the provincial government by province? regulation. It is a drainage system, large-scale. and collects a whole bunch of other ditches, I Mr. Lathlin: One example that I can give the guess, if I can call them waterways, collects a Member, Mr. Chairman, is the Grassmere Drain whole bunch of other systems. They come from that is just north of the city. That would be an farming areas; they come from municipal areas. example of a provincial waterway. It is also maintained by the provinciial govern­ ment. Now, that is my understandi111g, on the Mr. Maguire: Can the Minister clarify for me provincial side, of what a provincial waterway just exactly who determines what a provincial IS. waterway is?

Mr. Maguire: Then, Mr. Minister, that includes Mr. Lathlin: I understand that whenever the just ditches along provincial roads that are municipalities are ai a point where there is a provincially run as opposed to municipal roads. whole network of drainage systems, it gets to the Can you be more specific in regard to the point where there are too many of them or it gets application of ditches and their terminology? too big, they come to the government to outline problems that they are having in their area. They Mr. Lathlin: No. The answer is no fo r the will request the governmentto designate such an Member. A highway ditch is not included. It has area as a provincial waterway. I understand it is to be a designated waterway before it can qualify usually done by Order-in-Council. Also, appa­ to be deemed as being a provincial waterway. So rently there has not been such a designation for ditches along the highways, no. quite a long time now, or changes.

Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, again I was just Mr. Maguire: There have not been changes in referring to the wording that you had had in the regard to which, Mr. Minister? answer, Mr. Minister. You had mentioned the word "ditch" in your answer on a provincial Mr. Lathlin: What I meant to say, Mr. Chair, waterway, and I wondered- was for a while now there have not been any 3752 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 new designations given to the provincial active and inactive boards. I will table that fo r waterways. the record.

Mr. Maguire: Just to close, wrapping up there I just want to briefly go over a couple of the fo r today, but I guess the final question would items and also mention that Claude Fortier and be, it says provincial waterways and water Ben Levin are with me again today. I thank control facilities and structures. The Province Claude fo r providing the material on the boards. would then as well determine, is this the There are a number of boards, as the Member Department or the Minister's responsibility to pointed out. I am just going to go briefly through have the final say in regard to which facilities the active and inactive just fo r the record. and structures are deemed provincial as well? The Board of Teacher Education and Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour Certification is an active, non-statutory board being 6 p.m., the Committee rises. composed of 20 members, and I will not go through them all because I know the Member, EDUCATION AND TRAINING also. in consideration of time-but there are representatives from MTS. MASS. Education * (14:30) and Training, MAST. Brandon University, U of M. U of W. St. Boniface College. the colleges Madam Chairperson (Bonnie Korzeniowski): generally, and MFIS on the Teacher Education Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply and Certification Board. please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room The next board in terms of the general K -S4 255 will now resume the consideration of the Board of Reference is a statutory active board. Estimates for the Department of Education and The Collective Agreement Board is a statutory Training. active board composed of members of the Department of Education and Training. Consideration of these Estimates left offon Manitoba Teachers' Society and the Manitoba page 57 of the Estimates book, Resolution 16.1, Association of School Trustees. In fact. Ms. Administration and Finance. The floor is now Linda Ross. a MAST representative. is a fo rmer open for questions. colleague of mine from Brandon.

Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): I welcome back The Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) and Board, TRAF. is a statutory and active board. enjoyed sparring with you a bit in the House Again, membership is composed of citizen today, so we are all set. members as well as Manitoba Teachers' Society and the Manitoba Association of School Madam Chair, as I told the Committee, my Trustees. The Public Schools Finance Board, a objective is to cover the pertinent points and not statutory active board composition primarily of to belabour the Estimates process. The Minister Orders-in-Council under the Lieutenant­ has answered questions when I read over that I Governor. We have in this particular board right had prepared in fo rmer questions. I am going to now composed of Barbara McFarlane, Richard try to be as prudent as I can in terms of getting Heapy, Russ Hood, my old friend from Souris, through everything. Jack Denbow, Jocelyn Van Koughnet and Paul Birston. That comprises the primary statutory First of all, could I ask the Minister if he boards under the K-S4. does have the boards and the committees prepared to submit to this committee? The Apprenticeship Trades and Quali­ fications Board, under post-secondary boards, a Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education number of appointments: Ms. Joyce Sobering, and Training): I was just wondering if that who I had the pleasure to meet with this morning meant that everything was a pass. Yes, I do. fo r an hour, is the Chair, a ministerial Close. I do have the Education and Training appointment fu lfilling a three-year term. I will July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3753 not go through the various individuals on that ing reports of committees appointed by the board. Minister, to study and revise course and subject outlines, to engage in research and study of Council on Post-Secondary Education matters of educational policy, to study any other Board. It is a statutory board. Current members matter referred to it by the Minister. are Biii Regehr, Ann Robins, Martin Mayer, Ian Scott, Beverley Bachalo, Edward Ma11ens, Dan That board has not met since 1989, and I am Falcetta, Betty Green, Ron Bailey, Bev Watson, pleased to table that for the Member and for the Virginia Snyder and Annemarie Wiebe. I know public. I just wanted to review those very that the Member will recognize many of those quickly, though, to put some of them on the names, because they are primarily appointments record, because when you table them they do not from the previous government. appear in Hansard. Thank you.

University of Manitoba Board of Governors Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, just to clarify, the is a statutory board comprised of 23 members. collective agreement then would be under the Board of Regents is a Collective Agreement Board. Am I correct in statutory board composed of 36 members. I will assuming that? Could the Minister please not go through all the individuals on those clarify? The collective bargaining, rather. Col­ boards. lective bargaining would be under which board?

Brandon University Board is a statutory Mr. Caldwell: The Collective Agreement Board board composed of 17 members. Assiniboine has certain limited functions. Its authority is Community College Board, a statutory board, established under section 150 of The Public composed of 12 members. Keewatin Community Schools Act. Its mandate is to deal with matters College Board, a statutory board, composed of referred to it concerning collective agreements 12 members. between school division boards and division teacher associations. The board establishes an The Council on Post-Secondary Education is appropriate procedure for consideration and set­ a statutory board composed of 11 members, and tlement of disputes concerningthe interpretation, I will read their names into the record, Madam application or violation of a collective agreement Chairperson. Don Robertson, Muriel Smith, between school boards and other associations. chair and vice-chair respectively, Germain Peron, Bonnie Coombs, Milton Gobel, Current membership is composed of: Dr. Christopher MacDonald, Johanne Ross, Herman Ben Levin is chair, Mr. Brian Hanson is vice­ Green, Leslie Ziegalski, and there an;� currently chair and secretary. Representatives from the two positions vacant on that board. Manitoba Teachers' Society are Art Reimer and Lorraine Frost, and members from the Manitoba *(1 4:40) Association of School Trustees are Ms. Linda Ross and Mr. Craig Wallis, if that answers the Red River Community College, a statutory Member's question. board, composed of 12 members-we have already gone through some of these, I am sorry. Doubling up on some of the-[interjection} Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, just to review, we Those are is the previous boards. went over some things-! am sorry. I need my sticky. Inactive boards. The Minister's Advisory Board is an inactive statutory board. The Madam Chair, we had agreed, there are fu nction of the mandate of the Board is to make some issues, some questions we wanted to go regulations with respect to religious exercises through last time, and we had talked about what and patriotic observances-! rem�!mber the we were going to cover today. The boards was jackpot that a former minister got in that regard one of them. We had talked about schools of with "God Save the Queen"-to consider and choice; I believe that was 16.5. We talked about make recommendations to the Minister regard- Red River Community College and some other 3754 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 issues. So we will be progressing, hopefully, In terms of enhanced linkages between quite rapidly today through the Estimates. schools and agencies, staff participated in a number of interagency committees. Emphasis is Starting with 16.2.(f) Student Services, placed on an intersectoral approach with regard Madam Chair, I see that one of the objectives to early behaviour intervention, school therapy, under Student Services is to provide program child abuse prevention, drug and alcohol abuse and specialized support through the services of prevention, nursing support fo r students with consultants fo r the deaf and hard of hearing. special health care needs in school, and the Now, last time, the Minister outlined the treatment of students who are emotionally or programs for the specialized support just at the behaviourally disordered. So there are a number end of the day. of initiatives under way at the staff and interdepartmental level as well as the ministerial I would be interested in knowing ifthere has level vis-a-vis the Healthy Child Initiative. been any aggressive effort to provide deaf or hard-of-hearing students and their parents with the option of the services of the Central Speech Mrs. Smith : I thank the Minister fo r that clarification. Could the Minister please advise and Hearing centre located in Victoria Hospital. this committee: What sort of liaisons does the Department have with organizations and service Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, I thank the agencies that provides services to students with Member fo r the question, because it is a very special needs, particularly that occur both appropriate question in terms of programming outside the city in rural and northern Manitoba for deaf or hard-of-hearing students, young areas as well as Winnipeg, but I am interested in Manitobans. The Deputy has had a number of both ofthose? meetings with the centre, and there is current work going on to have programs available Mr. Caldwell: There is a fa irly extensive through the centre made available to network of consultations that take place between Manitobans. agencies in speaking to the rural areas in particular. The school divisions themselves have It is at a preliminary stage right now, but it a great deal of contact with agencies at the is I think a worthwhile discussion to have with divisional level, at the regional level. In tum. the the centre to provide another opportunity fo r Department interfaces with the school divisions. young Manitobans who are deaf or hard of and those contacts that take place at the regional hearing, to have another option available to or divisional level fo rm a basis of the depart­ them. In fact, the Deputy just advises me that he ment's contact with agencies involved in last wrote to them as recently as last week, so it activities at the divisional level. The primary is a very timely question. way that such an interface takes place is at the divisional level, local agencies. network and co­ Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, could the Minister ordinate activities with the school division. Then advise this committee: How is the Department the Department in tum has ongoing consultative going about identifying ways and means to dialogue with school divisions, and in tum all increase interdepartmental networking and ser­ partners in terms of interagency and school vice co-ordination? programs work together.

Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, could the Minister Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chair, just two points advise the Committee what sort of educational with regard to that question. There is a staff service agreements does the Department have working group under Bert Cenerini that is with other institutions? By whom, and how are working on service co-ordination between they being monitored? different departments in government. As well, we have the Healthy Child Initiative which is * (14:50) five departments involved in achieving inter­ sectoral programs and intersectoral co-operation Mr. Caldwell: There are a great many programs on childhood issues, prenatal to 18 years old. that the Department is involved with through July I 0, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3755 outside agencies separate from school divisions achieved. It has not to do with any programmatic that we work with in conjunction with school changes there. It just has to do with the normal divisions in providing services and opportunities turnoverof staff. fo r young Manitobans. Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, I notice the Repairs I can give three just off the top. In terms of and Maintenance/Rentals have increased. I the Knowles Centre-and primarily these would assume that is as a result of the normal activities take place in relationship with repair to the building. Perhaps the Minister could agreements through particular school divisions just clarify that fo r me in case there is anything as opposed to through the outside agency proper, new that might be on the horizon. but with the River East School Division, we help support the Knowles Centre and programs that Mr. Caldwell: I am advised that there is a small the Knowles Centre operates. With the Seven increase in Desktop in that regard, but it is Oaks School Division, we support activities with primarily related to the maintenance of older Marymound. In St. Vital, the St. Vital School equipment and, also, some standard rental Division, we support programs with the St. increases and so forth. But it is primarily to do, I Amant Centre. am advised, with increased maintenance costs of older equipment. I think that is something that There are number of such partnerships that maybe we need to attend to in future years. occur across the system. If the Member would like a more comprehensive list, we could Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, in 16.3.(a) under provide a more comprehensive list, but it is the Division Administration, once again I noticed same sort of programs that have be1!n typically the number of FTEs in this division has not offered by the Department of Education in terms changed. However, funding for total salaries and of supporting school divisions and partnerships benefits has been reduced. with outside agencies. So these have not changed. There has not been any particular Could the Minister please clarify why this initiative in this regard; it is more a continuation would be? Thank you. I would like to know of past practice. specifically what benefits employees may have lost. Mrs. Smith: If it would please the Minister, would appreciate having a list. There are times Mr. Caldwell: The amount is just over a when those queries do come to me, and I would thousand dollars. It is a change in the salary like to be accurate in that. accrual. I am advised that there is no change of substance there. It is just an accrual differential. Madam Chair, I notice that on page 69, the subappropriation in 16.2.(t), there are the same Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, I know, because I FTEs in the subappropriation, but I[ know you am familiar with the departments, you know, are spending less on salaries, particularly in the there are some things that are very self­ Administrative Support. explanatory, so there is no use, to my way of thinking anyway, going through that. I would Could the Minister explain to the: Committee like to go to 16.3.(b) Curriculum Development why that is? Is that because of the downsizing and Implementation. that has happened? I see the number of FTEs in the area of the Mr. Caldwell: The full-time equivalencies have Department has been reduced from 20 to 18.50, remained the same at 37. There is a small particularly in the Professional/Technical area. decrease of about $7,000-I guess it is $8,000, Would the Minister explain the rationale for the from $675,700 in 1999-2000 to $667,700 in reduction in staff? That would be on page 77. 2000-2001. I am advised that that is primarily related to staff turnover, somebody leaving and Mr. Caldwell: The decrease is primarily the then the position not being filled for a number of result of a slowdown in the development of months and, therefore, a small saving being programs and support materials in the areas of 3756 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

Franr;:ais langue premiere, basic French and and various sectors of the Department, schools, social studies. school boards and local, provincial, national and international organizations regarding French­ Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, under Other language education. Expenditures, there is an increase in fu nding fo r transportation, repairs, maintenance, rentals, * (15:00) professional services, and other operating expen­ ditures. In light of the number of staff cut in the Could the Minister provide us with an professional/technical area, has the Department explanation to describe how this activity is contracted out some of these services? Is that the implemented throughout the province? explanation for the increase in projected expenditures? If the Minister could clarify that, I Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, the would appreciate it. Department and the Branch particularly, but the Department is very involved with all sorts of Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, the activities regarding liasing between the Division increasing support in the neighbourhood of and various sectors of the Department, schools, $200,000 relate to the Interchange on Canadian school boards, locaL provincial, national and Studies Initiative, which is somewhat offset by a international organizations regarding French­ slowdown in the development of programs and language education. support materials for the areas of Franr;:ais langue premiere, basic French, and social I know on one front it was likely only 60 studies. The cost differential, as the Member days ago that myself, Sheila Copps, the Minister accurately points out, is about $140,000 in that responsible from the federal level, and Ron regard. Duhamel signed an agreement fo r the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine for a new five-year There is also the Bureau de !'Education agreement. an extended five-year agreement. Franr;:aise, does not always, has contracted some curriculum support in thatit cannot maintain all We have a number of programs involved the specialized staff required fo r curriculum with cultural exchange programs. For example, support. So the increased support again is related the Manitoba-Quebec exchange program. which to the increased support fo r the Interchange on is a six-month program that allows fifteen Canadian Studies Initiative, somewhat offset by students who are enrolled in Senior 2 or 3 in a slowdown in the development programs and Franco-manitobaine schools to spend three support materials in the areas that I mentioned months studying in Quebec during the spring previously. term. In turn, Quebec students come to Manitoba fo r a similar three-month period during the fall Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, would the Minister term. just clarify whether or not those support services at some later date might be increased as Living expenses fo r this program are the application comes from the field fo r more help responsibility of the host fam ilies. However, in that area, or is this a closed book? Manitoba's contribution in 2000-2001 of $7,000 will serve to defray part of the airfare costs. Each Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, yes, if there student will contribute a small amount towards was a request from the field, we would entertain the airfare costs. such requests. When the request was analyzed, we would place it, or not, according to the There is also the Manitoba-France analysis, into future budget years, but it is agreement, which has been under way since '93- certainly something that we would entertain. 94, an initiative by the previous administration which has proved to be very popular. Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, in 16.3.(c), under Educational Support Services, one activity The French Consulate, located in identified is to ensure educational, admini­ Vancouver, is involved in a number of projects strative and cultural liaison between the Division within the Department of Education of each July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3757 province. Such projects are conducted within the being developed for the Grade 3 students in the framework of the existing Canada-France English stream? agreement and do not require the preparation or the signature of a formal agreement between Mr. Caldwell: It is similar to the Anglophone individual provinces and France. Grade 3 skills assessment. The major difference, of course, is that there are fewer assessment However, in Manitoba, this agreement devices available because of just the fact of allows for three teachers from France to fo llow a English being a language of greater usage, I summer-training course in Canada, and three guess, in the North American context and in the teachers fr om Manitoba to do the same in national context, as well, but it is a similar France. The Winnipeg-Paris return airfare is program. borne by the teacher. France pays the tuition fees and accommodation fo r three teachers, and, Mrs. Smith: So basically the instruments will be reciprocally, Manitoba pays fo r three teachers selected as previously outlined by the Minister, from France at an estimated cost of approxi­ and the teachers will have that selection based mately $6,000. on some meetings they have and some collaboration. Just to clarify, is that the As well, the Department delivers some 30 procedure, Madam Chair? extracurricular and cultural programs to schools throughout the province, publishes and Mr. Caldwell: Yes, that is accurate. distributes approximately six suppon materials fo r special cultural activities, delivers some 25 Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, why is the educational exchanges, cultural projects, pro­ Department waiting until the Grade 4 level to fe ssional development opportunities, et cetera, to administer an evaluation of students in the students, teachers and administrators under the French immersion program? My understanding Manitoba-Quebec and the Manitoba-France is it will be done at the Grade 4 level, but from agreements. what the Minister just said, it is going to be done very similarlyto the Grade 3. Could the Minister So there are a number of activities that the clarify just so we understand what is actually Department undertakes vis-a-vis cultural happening there? programs, particularly for French-language advancement and French-language education in Mr. Caldwell: Can I clarify, does the Member the province ofManitoba. mean the Senior 4 level? There is nothing happening at the Grade 4 level. Grade 3 level is In many of these programs, as I mentioned where it is occurring, but perhaps the Member earlier, the fe deral government is the main has got the Senior 4 on her mind. [interjection] supporting player. As I mentioned, a couple of Oh, I see where-here it is. months ago, I had the honour of signing with Ms. Sheila Copps, Minister of Canadian I am advised that in terms of Grade 3, Heritage, a renewed five-year program for because the students are in immersion, Grade 3 support to the Division scolaire franco­ is recognized as being at a level too early to do manitobaine. So there are a number of projects such an assessment. They would want an extra locally, nationally and internationally. year of classroom contact because of the fact that they are learninga second language. Mrs. Smith: I am going to go to one of my favourite topics with the Minister in 16.3.(c) Mrs. Smith: So to clarify, it will be done with Educational Support Services. I am very the same pattern as the Grade 3, but it will be interested, Madam Chair, in the delivery of the done a year later because of the language fo rmative evaluation instruments at the Grade 3 differential. level for students in the Fran�ais program. Madam Chair, does that mean that for the Madam Chair, could the Minister please French immersion program, could the Minister clarify, is this similar to the assessment which is please clarify, it will be a year later getting 3758 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 started on that initiative, or will that be through interests and encourage them to pursue a post­ this year as well? secondary education in French.

Mr. Caldwell: No, it will begin to take place in Le centre d'etudes franco-canadiennes de the 2000-200 1 school year. The only diffe rential, !'Ouest Au service de l'enseignement as I indicated, is the fact that because the (universitaire et secondaire) et de Ia recherche students are immersion students and they are sur Ia francophonie de !'ouest canadien is a being immersed in a second language, that program to provide support services to students pedagogically it is fe lt that one more year of and academic staff through the use of volunteers classroom contact is appropriate before having and the hiring of one part-time professional staff the assessment. member to publish two issues of the publication "Cahiers franco-manitobains de )'Ouest" to Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, once again, I do organize an annual conference. notice that two staff members have been cut in educational services yet again, I notice it is in Centre informatique is a program to provide the Professional/Technical line and again it is a support services. including training; technical reduction in employee benefits, so could the problem resolution: hardware and software Minister clarify, is this the same reason as had installation; programming; network admini­ happened previously? stration; maintenance of client account systems: equipment maintenance; equipment and labora­ Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chair, this decrease is tory reservations; file management purchasing; primarily the result of the elimination of central and questionnaire and exam processing. marking for all Senior 4 standards test and the implementation of local marking with the central Cours et programmes pour Ia clientele adulte audit. those two positions. francophone is a program to develop and offe r courses. workshops, and in particular, programs * (15: 10) in the areas of language training, client services and professional development, fo r example, Mrs. Smith: Going to 16.3.(d) under the tourism and computers, tailored to meet the Officials Languages Programs and Admini­ specific need of certain target groups. strative Services, Madam Chair, would the Minister please outline the funding agreements Clientele adulte anglophone - cours et for special projects administered by non­ programmes de franyais langue seconde, a governmental organizations? program to develop and deliver both on campus and in rural areas an intensive French as a Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, I just Second Language program tailored to meet the acknowledge that Dr. Gerald Farthing, the ADM needs of employees in the health ti eld as well as of School Services, has just joined us and is not of basic French fo r teachers and, I dare say, writing furiously right now. However, the Ministers of Education, to develop and deliver Deputy Minister is perusing furiously our programs and workshops tailored to specific booklet to give some detail to the programs with work situations. which the question is concerned. Developpement institutionel du CUSB is a There are, as the Member indicates, a program to maintain and administer a fu nd for number of programs. Camplus is a program the awarding of bursaries and fo r the funding of offered during the spring of the year 2000 and various pedagogic projects to maintain and the summer of the year 1999, the previous administer a database on graduates, supporters, program, for children ages 6 to II that will students, and donors; to provide administrative enable them to appreciate French culture in a support to the graduates association; to co­ playful environment, to offe r programs for ordinate the work of volunteers; to prepare a secondary school students that will introduce recruitment campaign; to create within the them to various disciplines and develop their university community a feeling of belonging by July I 0, 2000 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3759 bringing together elements promoting the is the Formation en soins de sante, to develop a identity of that community. recruitment program for the Centre national de formation en soins de sante en fran�ais. The Another program is Integration du fran�ais objective of the program is to increase the aux diverses disciplines to evaluate language enrolment of Manitoba students in the medicine proficiency upon admission; to provide labora­ and health sciences programs at the University tories and language workshops tailored to of Ottawa, with the view of alleviating the specific programs as well as to the needs of the shortage of bilingual health care professionals in student population in general; to provide tutorial Manitoba. The program includes measures that services in writing and editing services; to notify will encourage their return to Manitoba at the students of the CUSB's linguistic requirements completion of their studies. The subtotal fo r that through notices and bulletins, brochures in the section for the CUSB is $868,000. college calendar; as a program for promotion and marketing; to develop marketing improve­ For non-government organizations, a ment strategies; to prepare frameworks for the number of programs are also offered. Alliance creation and production of all promotional chorale Manitoba Inc.: Programmation scolaire materials, advertisements and sponsorships; and du chant choral, to promote French choral music to develop and maintain a Web page, as well as in Manitoba by implementing choral groups in produce and distribute an information bulletin Division scolaire franco-manitobaine schools, called "Sous Ia coupole" to co-ordinate and by providing workshops for teachers in the newspaper advertising. teaching of choral music.

Reorganisation des reseaux internes The Brandon University: Process-Based informatiques du College, to document the Education - Year 1 program is to offer four two­ operations of each of the college's networks, day workshops on the communicative­ select one or two network platforms as standard experiential approach, assign and supetVise and convert existing information systems based between 10 to 15 projects to two different teams on that choice. of participants, with the view of developing the skills required to successfully adopt the Service d'animation culturelle, to offe r two communicative-experiential approach. theatre productions by "Chiens du Solei!," sundogs, four art gallery exhibits, workshops on An additional program under the non­ theatre, song, guitar playing and photography, an governmental organizations, the third program, in-house orchestra program, "Bolte a chansons" the Brandon University: Maintenance Language evening and classical concerts, and to co­ Program fo r French as Second Language ordinate an open house day. Teachers. This program provides workshops scheduled during the summer and on weekends An additional program is Administration des during the course of the school year for the projets speciaux, to provide administrative assis­ purpose of maintaining and improving the tance related to special projects. quality of French language skills in teachers of basic French who use the communicative­ Appui au secretariat, to provide additional experiential approach and its principles in the secretarial support to projects related to the teaching of French as a second language. French language curriculum. A fo urth program for non-governmental Mediabus, to provide library services to organizations is the Canadian Parents fo r schools in more remote areas of the: province, French: School Program which offers cultural with the use of two travelling vans, one for tours comprised of a total of 12 performances fran�ais and the other for French immersion fe aturing singers, dancers, actors and comedians; schools. to hold a weekend of workshops and activities with the support monitors and facilitators; to The final program in the College hold a week-long daytime French language universitaire de Saint-Boniface program package camp in seven communities in the province; and 3760 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000 to hold a French public speaking provincial The eleventh program offered, the Conseil contest comprised of 16 diffe rent categories. jeunesse provincial: Projet etudiants-animateurs, to provide three workshops on leadership A fifth program to non-governmental techniques including communication, planning, organizations is the Canadian Parents fo r leadership and personal development followed French: Theatre Project, to conduct a two-day by the completion of at least 40 hours of work in theatre workshop to expose basic French high a community setting where the skills learned school students to French as a living language. during the workshops are applied.

The sixth program, Centre culture! franco­ manitobain: Programmation educative, to offe r a The twelfth program offered to non­ basic program comprised of three workshops governmental organizations is the Conseil which explore creativity and expression in jeunesse provincial: L'Affa ire Farouche 1999, to hold a one-day gathering of young Franco­ children; to offe r specialized workshops on Manitobans with the view of promoting a sense various artistic techniques such as painting, of belonging to the Franco-Manitoban sculpture and pastels; to provide an itinerant community through their involvement in a exhibit accompanied by the exhibiting artist and variety of games and workshops and their a pedagogic kit. exposure to French music. Seventh program, Cinemental Inc.: Programme scolaire, to present a French The thirteenth such program offered to this language film in rural and urban schools sector is the CKSB Radio-Canada: Explique-moi fo llowed by a guided discussion of the film to �a, to produce a series of 20 science-oriented prepare related information kits and a teaching radio programs involving research, script writing manual. and presentation in partnership with teachers and students and also to create a related Internetsite. The eighth program that is offered to non­ government organizations, the Conseil jeunesse The fo urteenth program is La Division provincial inc.: Projet de developpement de scolaire franco-manitobaine no 49: Pedagogie leadership des eleves du secondaire, to develop a differenciee, to organize two or three days of course in the area of community development meetings in each division's schools with the view having both technical and practical components; of determining an appropriate intervention to develop partnerships with non-profit model fo llowed by a critical analysis of the organizations based upon their needs and model to develop a three-step intervention interests; and to promote the project in the target process, a pre-workshop day session, a schools. workshop day session, and a post-workshop day session to develop activities that promote the The ninth program is the Conseil jeunesse implementation of differentiated learning, to provincial: Appui aux conseils etudiants des impart through the use of modelling at the ecoles franco-manitobaines, to organize leader­ workshop strategies that teachers will find useful ship seminars for Franco-Manitoban high school in transferring the model to their respective students to assist them in running student classrooms, to develop sessions on diffe rentiated councils and other school groups. learning for the summer institute, to undertake research projects and strategies related to diffe rentiated learning, to write divisional *(1 5:20) documents in printed fo rm and in electronic form, and to share the knowledge acquired The tenth program offered is the Conseil through experience by publishing articles and jeunesse provincial: Journal des jeunes, to attending conferences at the provincial as well as develop and implement a structure where the national level. FranfYais and French Immersion high school students can produce two editions of a youth The fifteenth program offered to this sector newspaper. is the DSFM: Fau's'connaitre 2000, to organize a July I 0, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3761 fu ll day of workshops related to sports, the arts The twenty-first project in this sector is and improvization as well as co-operative games L'Ensemble fo lklorique de Ia Riviere Rouge: which seek to challenge students' abilities in the Swing Ia bottine. To develop two music manuals areas of co-ordination, problem resolution, including lyrics for use by teachers for dance strength, speed, memory, leadership, et cetera. instruction.

The sixteenth program is the DSFM: The twenty-second program under this area Harmonie en fete, to organize a cultural and is Le fe stival des videastes: Les adolescents et Ia artistic gathering of Fran9ais students from justice. To provide training in audiovisual Grade 6 to 8 with the objective of providing techniques, that is, filming and editing students with an opportunity to acquire an techniques and in the preparation of a scenario to appreciation fo r music by actively participating produce a video on the theme Adolescents and in musical performance. Justice. The seventeenth program in this area is the DSFM: Dansons Ensemble, to provide teacher The twenty-third program in this sector is training in the French language in the areas of Festival du voyageur: Le programme scolaire du corporal expression and creative movement, to Festival du voyageur 2000, to organize and organize a gathering fo r the purpose of having implement a school program within the context students perform the various dance styles of the Festival du voyageur, including the co­ learned throughoutthe school year. ordination of a tour of artists within schools, performances, handicrafts and sport; and, also to The eighteenth program, DSFM: Festival organize a one-day information session for des arts, is to provide workshops comprised of program leaders from fran9ais and immersion five different areas of interest, that is, visual arts, schools. corporal expression, theatre, music and writing. The twenty-fourth program offered in this area is Fort Whyte Foundation Inc.: The nineteenth program offered for non­ L'apprentissage de l'environnement to provide governmental is the DSFM: Radio scolaire, to interactive programs in environmental education, provide radio training to students and teachers including writing and revising support materials, composed of three stages, one day of studio the preparation of school brochure outlining the training, tour of schools by a resource person French programs offered and the delivery of this providing training tailored to the skill level of program. the students and the type of equipment being used and one day of training involving a group The twenty-fifth program in this sector is the limited to six students. As well, this program St. Boniface School Division No. 4: Summer will replace worn-out radio equipment. School which offers courses in the French language and mathematics, fran9ais, geography, The twentieth such program in this sector is science and social sciences at the Senior 1 and DSFM: Reseau d'education multimedia Senior 2 levels to Manitoba students who wish d'enseignement a distance to provide distance to obtain a credit for courses which they have education programs in mathematics, languages previously failed. and science; to develop an administrative guide through a working committee; to maintain the The twenty-sixth program under this sector technical equipment needed; to provide technical is Federation provinciale des comites de parents support and training to teachers; to prepare du Manitoba: Preparation a l'ecole fran9aise multimedia material and kits fo r the teaching of 1999-2000, a program to develop and organize the courses; to undertake activities and research educational gains to be played in a group setting and development in the area of new technology that improve language skills; also to provide and pedagogy related to distance education; and, workshops designed for parents and other to supervise students in the distance education interveners involved with children of the ages program. zero to three that encourage cultural and 3762 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 linguistic development. This program also ming, such as the technical use of equipment, the provides training for those involved in the preparation and the hosting of a radio program operation of private and home day cares, as well and the administration of a music library. as, provide financial support fo r pre­ kindergarten facilities to cover the additional The thirty-second program under this sector costs associated with French language up­ is the River East Collegiate: Core French grading. Language Instruction and Business Partnership which is designed to create partnerships with The twenty-seventh program in this non­ business, government corporations and non­ governmental area is Federation provinciale des profit organizations that enable high school comites de parents du Manitoba: Guide students studying core French to learn how to pedagogique et fe uillets d'activites du journal function in a French-speaking work environ­ des jeunes. To create a pedagogic guide for the ment. Journal des jeunes composed of three parts: a presentation of the Journal des jeunes, a listing The thirty-third program is the River East of various pedagogic activities, and advice on Collegiate: Education sans fr ontieres. To how to start up a class newspaper. This program develop an electronic link with a school in Haiti; also creates an activity bulletin fo r each issue of to produce learning materials in both oral and the Journal des jeunes, which is about 10 issues written fo rmat on Canadian culture and per year suggesting pedagogic activities relating geography. to the current issue, that is. vocabulary, grammar, text comprehension and so fo rth. *(15:30)

The twenty-eighth program under this sector The thirty-fourth program in this sector is is Les productions Rivard Inc.: Unique au Universite du Manitoba: L'apprentissage monde. To produce a series of 13 30-minute interactif autonome du franc;ais langue seconde documentaries which examine animal, aquatic oral par l'intermediaire du multimedia. This and land indigenous species that are unique to program identifiesand analyzes the need fo r oral western Canadaand the . French students at the beginner's level: to develop and adapt the pedagogic material The twenty-ninth program is Manitoba required. Children's Museum: Manitoba Children's Museum French Language Services. To develop. The thirty-fifth program is Winnipeg Art implement and provide Grade 3 school programs Gallery: French Language Education Program in the French language in each of the Grades K which helps develop in the French language a to 6, and to promote and provide services in series of exhibit tours and activities consistent French. with the art curriculum of the Province of Manitoba to offe r six art kits fo r use by teachers The thirtieth program is the Manitoba on the fo llowing themes: Inuit art, Native art. art Children's Museum: Wonderworks the Infra­ and sports, Canadian art, portraits and drawing. structure: Educational Signs and Props. The purpose of this program is to provide signage in The thirty-sixth program offered in this both official languages in the new exhibition hall sector is Manitoba Association of Teachers of Wonderworks the Infrastructure Gallery, French: La promotion du franc;ais langue designed to teach children about the importance seconde au Manitoba. To develop and maintain a of infrastructure systems. Web site; to develop three pamphlets-an administration pamphlet, a parent's pamphlet and The thirty-first program, La Radio a student's pamphlet-as well as to develop a communautaire du Manitoba Inc.: Radio scolaire teacher's booklet to help in the preparation of a et fo rmation des benevoles: immersion et promotional kit for distribution. francophones. To offer training session to students from French and French Immersion The thirty-seventh program is the Manitoba schools on various aspects of radio program- Museum of Man and Nature: Vision 2002: July IO, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3763

L'avenir nous appartient a tous. To offe r 13 great, but, I will leave that judgment up to you. school programs in French in the Museum, 3 However, in the future, when I ask about special programs at the Science Centre and 5 in the programs, when there is a listing of fo rty, I do Planetarium. To offe r special programs, not expect the Minister to attempt to read all including "Un jour dans Ia vie du voyageur," a three pages. It would be sufficient to table those day in the life of the voyageur, presented during just so I could be abreast of them. But I thank the course of the Festival du voyageur, the Minister fo r his supreme effort. temporary exhibitions and planetarium night fo r teachers. Madam Chair, how do school divisions access the monitors to assist classroom teachers The thirty-eighth program-there are only in teaching French language programs? What is two more-but the thirty-eighth program, Plu­ the process and how many monitors are rielles (Manitoba) Inc.: La franciisation et available to schools throughout the province? refrancisation des adultes au Manitoba franc;:ais. Could the Minister please advise this committee To develop the cultural program that promotes regarding this? the linguistic and cultural development of parents by means of interesting and meaningful Mr. Caldwell: Full- and part-time second experiences, including theatre, community language monitors are provided to educational activities and training workshops and group bodies to help second language teachers convey discussions on various topics involving to students the real life aspect of the language Francophone issues. that they are studying and awareness of the culture associated with that language. Additional The thirty-ninth program is the Winnipeg full- and part-time monitors are provided to International Children's Festival, which helps Francophone minority regions where French is assist in offering performance and workshops in the principal language of instruction. The fu ll­ the French language during the fe stival. time monitors, French must be the first language of those monitors. They must be Canadian The fo rtieth is the Apprentissage Illimite: citizens or permanent residents, must be enrol1ed Paul et Suzanne. To develop teaching materials as a full-time student in a post-secondary fo r young students in French language schools. institution, usually in the province or territory. They must have also completed at least CEGEP The subtotal in this area is $90 I ,000 for the stays in Quebec or one-year post-secondary total fo r both parts A and B of $I,769,550. I studies in other provinces and territories. thank very much the fo rbearance of the Member Additional qualifications may occur and vary and anybody else listening to my French. Je suis throughout the country. Applications are sent un Anglo-manitobain, obviously. I am very into the Department by schools. Monitors are thankful that the text was in English after the assigned according to orders of importance. titles. Mr . Tom Ne vakshonoff, Acting Chairperson. in That is the program. There is quite an the Chair extensive series of programs offered fo r French Language Services and they are all very well I am just trying to get the total number of taken up. I know we get a lot of comments in the monitors offered this year. In the 2000-200 I office. Most of these programs, as the Member school year, Manitoba's quota will be I4 fu ll­ will know, were established by th1� previous time monitors and 23 part-time monitors. This government. We are very pleased to have a very program, as the Member may know, is funded good track record in the province of Manitoba in by the Department of Canadian Heritage. It is terms of promoting the French culture and administered by the councils of the Minister of language in the province of Manitoba. Education in conjunction with each province and territory. The protocol fo r agreements between Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, and I do appreciate the Government of Canada and the provincial the Minister's attempt at French. Mine is not that governmentfo r minority language education and great either, not that I am saying yours is not second language instruction makes provision fo r 3764 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000 the provincial or territorial governments to separately from the municipal taxes. I would like transfer to the monitored program a portion of to proceed through each of the province's 52 the financial assistance made available to the public school divisions, 2 special revenue school province and territory or the Government of districts, and 56 independent schools to ascertain Canada in accordance with the terms of its their fu nd ing increases or decreases and their individual bilateral agreement. A transfer in surpluses or deficits. Manitoba of $16,000 was required fo r each additional fu ll-time monitor and $5,400 fo r each We could begin with the urban school part-time monitor. In 1999-2000, the past divisions to see what changes have occurred academic year, Manitoba transferred $54,000 since last year. It would be informative to know from the OLE fo r 17 fu ll-time and 24 part-time what grants-for example, grants fo r ESL, monitors. In 2000-200 I, Manitoba transferred English as a Second Language-each of the $53,700, resulting in the same number, 17 fu ll­ divisions receives for special programs as well. time monitors and 24 part-time positions. My question to the Minister: Would the Minister agree to provide that information during the Mrs. Smith: I thank you fo r that clarification, Estimates progress and open committee so that Minister. Under 16.3.(e) Library and Materials all MLAs on both sides of the House will know Production, I noticed the funding fo r admini­ what fu nding has been provided to the school strative support and employee benefits has been divisions in their particular ridings? cut. Could the Minister please clarify? Is that the same reasoning, Mr. Chair, that the Minister has Mr. Caldwell: I would be pleased to table the outlined previously in the other cuts? numbers. Historically, this has not occurred. It is difficult to table anything by constituency Mr. Caldwell: Yes, that is accurate; that figure because, of course, school divisions do not line of just under $ I ,000 is the same as in accruals. up to constituencies. Often many constituencies have more than one school division. We would Mrs. Smith: In 16.4.(b) Pensioners' School Tax be pleased to table them. Assistance, Mr. Chair, how does the Minister ac.count for the reduction in funding from * (15:40) $4,140,000 to $4,040,000 allocated fo r assistance to those 55 years of age or over? The difficulty is, and it is not really a Could the Minister please clarify fo r me, fo r this difficulty, but it is something that has to be committee? stated as a caveat. In mid-year these numbers are fairly soft. We do not know the total figures or Mr. Caldwell: This is a needs-based assistance the total numbers or accurate numbers, as it program. Primarily the differential there of some were, until the publication at the end of the year $25,000-sorry, larger than that-but that with the FRAME document publication, but the differential is, the Member will be pleased to numbers that we have right now are fairly soft note, because it speaks to the economic record of because figures such as enrolment are not known the Province over the last number of years; it is until the end of the year, and so fo rth. So all that due to less volumes related to higher incomes. we have available, and all traditionally the So it is a needs-based program. There is less departments have available ever in mid-year, is volume in this particular program primarily soft numbers. The hard numbers are not known. related to higher incomes in the province. So you They are estimates, not anything hard. The hard can take that to the bank. numbers are not known until all the enrolment numbers are known, which would be some Mrs. Smith: Could we go now to 16.5. Support months from now, September 30 for the next to Schools and 16.5.(a) Schools Finance, please? year. As you know, the funding that goes to school divisions is collected through the municipalities I do not have any particular problem tabling throughout the province. Many municipalities the soft numbers per division if the Member issue their tax bills with the taxes raised on wants. I think it would be more useful to table behalf of the school divisions itemized the hard numbers, but that would be one year July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3765 hence that those numbers would be available. might take some time to get together, andthat is Everything at this stage is soft, and, as I stated perfectly understandable. I do not know if staff earlier, I do not think that these numbers have has it at their fingertips at this time, but if we ever been tabled within Estimates. The ADM could have a listing of those, I would appreciate does not think that they have been, historically. I it. do not have any problem tabling-they are soft numbers, though, so they do not have a lot of Mr. Caldwell: Staff is scrambling to my left meaning. Maybe the Member would like to here. I think we have it available now. I would have the numbers tabled that were part of the like to welcome the Member for Portage Ia FRAME document. They would be the hard Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) to the Committee. It is numbers, the ones that are accurat,e. Is that good to see you. sufficient? There are a number of capital programs, as Mrs. Smith: I certainly do agree with the the members are aware, that the Public Schools understanding these are soft numbers, and I can Finance Board undertakes every year. I know in agree with that. It would be useful, Mr. Chair, to my home constituency of Brandon East, have the numbers now. I will use discretion with although there are no programs specifically in which I use those numbers, but it would be nice Brandon East this year, there are programs in to have them now and also understanding the Brandon West for a couple of schools related to hard numbers as well. It is a very useful way of expansions of those schools. I will put on the tracking the progress. record the projects currently under way in Winnipeg No. 1 School Division on the Mr. Caldwell: I will get the numb�::rs for the Greenway site. There is a project under way that 2000-2001 school year, and also, I think I involves land acquisition to the amount of should bring in likely the hard numbers from the $350,000, allocation in the 2000-2001 school previous year just to have some. Okay, that is year. In St. Boniface, the Island Lakes school is good. a new school. There is a funding instalment this year of $3,200,000. Mrs. Smith: I thank the Minister for that information, and we will make sure that those In Transcona-Springfield, there is in the are known as softnumbers and hard numbers. Anoia area a major project being developed, planning phase of $100,000. In Agassiz School Mr. Chair, could the Minister please clarify Division, the Garson-Tyndall new school, there to the Committee, how is the Minister is a funding instalment of $1 million allocated in monitoring the funding provided to school 2000-2001. In the Hanover School Division, the divisions for special education? Kleefeld school replacement, there is a funding instalment of $1,350,000. In the Evergreen Mr. Caldwell: The financial aspect is School Division, the Gimli Early Middle Years documented through the FRAME document in new school funding instalment of $1 million. terms of global reporting. In terms of Levels 2 and 3, the department has people in the field In the Frontier School Division, in working with special needs teachers with Shemanawan, there is a new school projected individual education plans, so that is monitored funding instalment of a provincial share for through the lAPs provided for Levels 2 and 3. approximately 6 percent of $100,000 in the 2000-2001 allocation. Also, the Frontier SchooJ Mrs. Smith: I thank the Minister fo r that Division in Thicket Portage, there is a new\ clarification. Could the Minister please clarify school with a funding instalment for the playing which of the 200 to 250 major capital projects stage of approximately $100,000. approved by the Public Schools Fimmce Board are being undertaken this year? Ifthis committee In the DSFM, Ecole Lavallee is a new could have a clarification of which projects are school with a funding instalment of $1,150,000, new, which ones are ongoing, and which ones for a total of $8,350,000 this particular year. will be acted upon this year. I und€:rstand this There are a number of renovations and additions 3766 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000 that the PSFB is currently supporting. In Division is receiving transfer from the Aging Winnipeg 1, Winnipeg Adult Ed Centre of Buildings Program, $1.3 million. In Churchill $325,000, Argyle School at $50,000. Children of School Division, the Duke of Marlborough the Earth School at $50,000, Calvin high school School is receiving $200,000. In the Frontier at $50,000. In Tech-Voc at $500,000. School Division, various school divisions are receiving $500,000, for a total renovation­ In St. James School Division, St. James addition amount of$1 1 ,770,000. Collegiate is a recipient of $50,000 fo r renovation-addition. Fort Garry School Division, The total estimated costs of approved major Henry G. Izatt Middle Years School, $625,000 capital projects by the PSFB in 2000-2001 is allocated. In River East School Division, Prince $20,1 20,000. That would conclude the list for Edward School, $50,000 allocated. River East this year. It is quite a range of projects. School Division, Salisbury Morris Place School, $600,000 allocated. Seven Oaks School There are a few more projects under aging Division, the A. C. Avery School, $750,000 allo­ buildings. I will just go over them very quickly. cated. In Winnipeg, Sisler School is receiving $1.45 million; in St. Vital, Mountbatten School is Transcona-Springfield, the Springfield receiving $150,000; in Agassiz, Beausejour Junior High School is getting an allocation this Elementary, phase 2 is receiving $100,000; Fort year from PSFB for renovations-additions at La Bosse School Division is receiving $600,000, $50,000. In Seine River, the Ste. Anne Complex fo r a total of$2.3 million on that score. is a recipient of $50,000. In Hanover, the Landmark School is receiving $400,000. Also in In terms of roofing, Winnipeg School Hanover, the South Oaks School is getting an Division, Winnipeg No. 1, George V School is allocation of $200,000. In Rhineland, the Gretna receiving $479,000 for a roofing project; King school is recipient of $200,000. In Morris­ Edward School is receiving $121,000; Principal Macdonald, the J. A. Cuddy School is receiving Sparling School in Winnipeg No. 1 is receiving $1,550,000. Evergreen School Division, the $650,000; Sargent Park School is receiving Gimli Middle School is recipient of a $50,000 $120,000; St. John's High is receiving $200,000 allotment. In Lakeshore School Division, the fo r Winnipeg No. 1, which is a tidy sum there Inwood School is receiving $200,000. for Winnipeg No. 1 roofing projects.

* (15:50) St. James School Division, St. James Collegiate is recipient for a roofing program Rolling River School Division, close by my under the roofing program of $90,000. In Fort own home constituency, Elmwood Collegiate Garry School Division, General Byng is and Forrest is receiving $50,000. In Brandon, I receiving $55,000; in Brandon, New Era School mentioned earlier, J. R. Reid is receiving is receiving $175,000 fo r roofingprogram . $200,000, and Linden Lanes School is receiving $200,000, both fo r expansions to facilities there. In the Western School Division, Maple Leaf In the Souris Valley School Division, Hartney Elementary is receiving $100,000 for a total School is receiving $750,000, and Souris School roofingexpenditure of $200,000 this year. is receiving $50,000. Wawanesa School is receiving $200,000, which should make the It is quite a sum, in the range of $25 million Member for that region very happy actually. It is this year. about a million dollars in renovations and allocations in the Souris Valley School Division. I would like to welcome the Member fo r Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) to our Committee In Western School Division, Minnewasta here. Welcome. School is receiving $370,000. In the DSFM, Rhea) Berard School is receiving $2.1 million. Mrs. Smith: I thank the Minister for those Gabriel Roy school is receiving $100,000. In clarifications. Mr. Chair, I would like to go to Prairie Spirits School Division, Treherne School 16.5.(b) Education Administration Services at July 10, 2000 LEGISLATJ[VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3767 this time. I understand at one time the Manitoba Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chair, if I might, while Teachers' Society was interested in establishing senior staff are huddled to my left here, there a teachers college that would, among other were a number of questions asked with regard to things, be responsible for certifying professional the old Program Implementation branch that I personnel in the school system. Could the committed to answer this week from last Minister please clarify what the status is of the Thursday. If I could put into the record now, discussions around a teachers college in while the staff is huddling, some of the Program Manitoba? Implementation issues that I said I would bring back to this committee this week. Mr. Caldwell: We have been in consultation with pretty much every major stakeholder in the In terms of Program Implementation, there field of public education over the last nine were questions on the Early Behaviour months. I know the previous government also Intervention submissions. This initiative has had dialogue with the major organizations been in place for two years. The reports involved with public education, the Province of outlining progress in relation to the divisions Manitoba, during the course of their mandate. identify goals that have been submitted and will The question of having a teachers, college, be reviewed by a team of divisional and teacher certification under the MTS and a departmental representatives. From the review government structure has been raised a couple of areas, where school divisions may require times in our discussions, but it has not been a support, will be identified. These are expected fe ature of any work on behalf of the Dt!partment. results of the Program Implementation area. It is currently not something that iis on the Department's agenda The transition to a supportive role-over the Mrs. Smith: I thank the Minister for that past year, consultants from the branch began to answer. I see this division co-ordinates work with school division staff in the provision appointments fo r boards and committ,ees which of professional learning opportunities. Activities are convened by legislation under tht: acts and in the field are provided, utilizing partnerships statutes for which the Minister has respon­ and fo cusing on the building of local capacities sibility. Does the Minister have a listing to table wherever possible. today of those boards and committee:s? Is that incorporated in that document that was just Professional learning opportunities is given to me, the most recent appointmt:nts? another expected result of the Program Implementation. With the reduction in the Ma dam Chairperson in the Chair number of curricular documents released, ser­ vices of transition from province-wide overview sessions to divisional or regional sessions are Mr. Caldwell: Welcome back, Madam Chair­ provided at the request of educators. person. The Special Education Review is another That is included in that docume:nt I have Program Implementation area. Special education tabled earlier today. consultants have met with the Special Education Review Initiative staff to discuss projects, and Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, I just wanted to staff will be participating with the Special clarify that. Thank you, I have not had a chance Education Review Initiative on their identified to look at it. goals for the 2000-2001 school year. Expected results of Program Implementation regarding I would like to go to 16.5.(c) and 16.5.(d). In enhanced linkages between schools and 16.5.(c), Schools Information System, I notice agencies-staff will participate in a number of an increase in funding for Profes­ interagency committees. Emphasis will be sional/Technical; however, the number of FTEs placed on the intersectoral approach and the has not risen. Could the Minister clarify why this Early Behaviour intervention, school therapy, jump has occurred in this particular an!a? child abuse prevention, drug and alcohol abuse 3768 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000 prevention, nursing support for students with through its centralized bulk mailing system. special health care needs in schools and the During the period April through June 2000, there treatment of students who are emotionally or were fo ur separate mailings of some 87 000 behaviourally disordered. Expected results also items. For each of the mailings, a packing slip is include in the Program Implementation: enclosed in the parcel identifying to whom the aboriginal education and English Language educational material should be directed. The Enrichment for Native Students. A number of packing slip is posted on the Department's Web initiatives have been undertaken to identifYways site. in which schools can increase the engagement of Aboriginal students in their education. Three As well, the expected results for program consultants have been identified as having major implementation include improved classroom responsibility in this area. Staff and the practices and research-based decision making. departments have met with school division IRU has catalogued and made accessible over officials toreview the pilot of the free-structured 858 learning resources to date and has circulated English Language Enrichment fo r Native 21 272 items to teachers. Questions from tea­ Students grant program. chers relate to exceptions in the Copyright Act and the copying rates acquired through the new * (16:00) five-year CMEC Pan-Canadian Schools Can Copy Copyright Agreement are being addressed. Expected results in Program Implementation CMEC is currently developing, along with other also include special education. Special education national partners, a position paper on the consultants and the unit co-ordinator have been requirements of the educational community as it involved in discussions divisionally and relates to the use of digital information and the regionally to identifY needs and action plans to upcoming changes in the Copyright Act. The enhance programming fo r students with special IRU Virtual Education Information Services needs. As well, Madam Chairperson, the increased 33 percent compared to the same Program Implementation results expected the period last year. facilitation of school level curriculum implementation via teacher access to Pan Finally, in terms of Expected Results of the Canadian, Manitoba Calls and other resource­ Program Implementation is improved teacher based learning resources. The IRU acquires and and student access to learning. The Manitoba purchases two to three copies of each of the Library Consortium Incorporated, a non-profit, learning resources from the Pan Canadian and multiple-library, co-operative effort is develo­ Manitoba Calls and allows teachers to preview ping a provincial plan for a single library system before purchase. IRU is acquiring additional which would link all publicly funded schools, copies of recently recommended ELAK to universities, colleges, government and health Senior I. Purchases were made in a wide range libraries in the province. of other curriculum-matching learning resources to support resource-based learning in K to S4 That is material I committed to bringing in classrooms. IRU's Internet-based on-line last week, Madam Chairperson. The major catalogue, which is used by teachers to identify differences in the salaries and employee benefits and acquire on-loan materials at a hit rate of relate to merit increments and reclassification. I 320 059 during this period, which is last year's There are quite a number of l-IT reclassifications period, which is 40 percent higher than in the last two years to keep salaries somewhat compared to the year before, which is competitive. So the main results of that are merit tremendously increased usage of on-line cata­ increments and reclassifications. logue services. Mrs. Smith: I thank the Minister for that Also, in terms of program implementation, information, and indeed it was useful to have. we expect an efficient and effective delivery of new SPD documents and other educational Madam Chair, I would like to ask some literature. In 1999-2000, IRU distributed more questions now on the supplementary support for than 709 000 items to schools and board offices schools of choice under I6.5. I know there is a July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3769 concern about the schools of choice program First of all, could the Minister advise this because of the funding formula that has been committee how much funding specifically will changed. Could the Minister please explain that be going to that same student that remains in the change and how this change would impact on neighbouring school division? students who are currently enrolled in schools across the province, in divisions other than * (16:10) where they live? Mr. Caldwell: There was a very small impact of fu nding in a very limited number of school Mr. Caldwell: The funding formula does not divisions in this regard. The staff is reading affe ct the schools of choice. The funding entrails over here, as we are talking. Pardon me formula does affect any student in any division, for a second, and I am going to discuss this with whether they are residing there or coming in or staff. leaving. So there is no specific change related to the schools of choice with regard to the funding I can give an idea of the negative impact. fo rmula. For example, in St. James school division, it amounted roughly to $20 per student was the I should also say that we are joined here by differential. In Morris-Macdonald, the impact Steve Power, the Director of Schools Finance. was somewhat greater because of the adult Welcome, Steve, and thank you. learning centre. The comment back from Morris­ Macdonald was: How come it took you guys so long to figure this out? So it was a very, very Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister please clarify small amount of dollars in a very few school the supplementary support initiative that has divisions that had any impact, and, as I said, an impacted on the Schools of Choice and explain impact in St. James-Assiniboia was approxi­ how the funding affects students who are mately $20 per student. travelling from one school division to another one? Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister please explain, going to Supplementary Support on page 20 of Mr. Caldwell: We will likely spend a bit of time the School Funding, I see that Mr. Power is here, on this, I think, but Schools of Choice continues and I have had some calls from some concerned to exist in the province. There are no principals regarding the Schools of Choice. I impediments for students or parents to make a want to be able to be accurate in what I tell decision on transferring students between school them. I understand, Madam Chair, that the divisions. There is a small change in the support Minister fe els it is a small impact of $20 a fo r students going from one division to another. I student. This is why I am asking the questions am advised that there are only two divisions where the concern is. In all fairness, I just want where it made any significant impaGt and the to be totally accurate in what I am saying department has not had any formal complaints because I do continue to get these kinds of calls. from those divisions, in that regard, to the The concernsI am hearing is, number one, when department, but we can pursue that. a large number of students from outside the division go into a neighbouring division, then depending on the staffing, depending on the Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister outline fo r this resources, the money does add up. To begin committee-! will give the Minister an example. with, if I could have an explanation, I notice Mr. Let us say a student in '98-99 transferred into Power is here, on the Supplementary Support, so another school division. Previously, all the I can have that on record and perhaps back up money went with that student to the some of the concerns that I have heard. This is neighbouring school division; that is my why I am asking the question today, for understanding. So they have gone to another accuracy. school division outside ofthe area in which they live. Now, that same student will be affected somewhat by the funding that will be allotted to Madam Chair, perhaps this would help a bit. them. Section E on page 21 of the school funding 3770 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

document is what I have been told impacts on Member, if there are questions, that it would be the students from out of division. I am asking useful perhaps to have Mr. Power discuss the this line of questioning as a result of questions matter with the principal or superintendent in that have been brought to me. This is where I question so that they could go through the details would like the Minister to clarify, to eliminate of the individual division, which may be a more any concerns that might be out there and when I satisfactory answer fo r the division in question at do answer so I can be accurate. any rate.

* (16:20) I think it is a very complex issue. It is a one­ year blip as we start to get a handle on the adult Mr. Caldwell: I will try my best here. All the learners in particular, but I think it would be base fu nding still exists for individual students. useful to have individuals that have detailed There was an alteration this year based upon the questions to discuss the details of their specific adult learning, the students, the post-2 1 -year­ division with Mr. Power. old-and-over student, because of the huge growth in adult learners. The supplementary While I have the microphone, I guess I support, primarily equalization, is based upon should welcome-we just had a shift change in the spending and assessment per pupil, the building-the Member fo r Assiniboia (Mr. comparisons with the highest division assessed Rondeau), the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. per pupil, and the idea is to equalize this Wowchuk), the Member for Brandon West (Mr. proportion to schools. That is, poorer divisions Smith) and the Member for Riel (Ms. Asper), as get more in assessment from the Province than well as the Member fo r Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), wealthier divisions. who just walked in the room. Welcome them to the Committee as well. Prior to this year, the numbers used were eligible enrolment; now the Department uses Mrs. Smith: In all due respect, it is wonderful to resident pupils as opposed to eligible for see all these people, but, Madam Chair. if we enrolled pupils. This corrects the distortion in could have it nice and quiet in here so I can hear the per pupil assessment that existed previously. the answers, I would sure appreciate it. The distortion made divisions with a great many choice pupils look poorer than they really were. Madam Chairperson: I was waiting for the This meant that these divisions were getting opportunity. Order, please. I would just like to more in resources than they should have been take a moment to remind all honourable getting, and now the fu nding is provided in a members to please provide the courtesy of your more accurate and equitable basis. I know that it attention to the Member who has the floor. It is is quite a complex fo rmula, but I would acceptable to carry on conversations at the encourage the Member if she does have division Committee table as long as they do not disrupt inquiries from the field, from principals or the proceedings. It can make it difficult to hear superintendents or so fo rth, to refer them to Mr. when there is talking. Power in the educational finance branch. He can walk the principal or superintendent, as the case Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister please clarify may be, through the details of the supplemental for this committee how much money is given to funding, but there is no change in base support a student in a given school division? I know that to the students. schools are given their funding according to population. How much per student is allotted? There is a small change in per pupil amounts that was reflected in my comments about the St. Mr. Caldwell: There is no per pupil allocation. James School Division to equalling approxi­ It depends on the property assessment level in mately $20 per student. In other divisions, you the individual division. It depends on the special had the response. Morris-Macdonald, who is the needs of the individual student. Each student biggest loser in this case, was more of a-they literally would take with him or her a different were interested as to why the Government had amount of money depending on where in the not caught on to this earlier, but I would refer the province they came from and depending on the July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3771 special needs or lack of of the individual student, Mr. Caldwell: The money would transfer with transportation needs and so fo rth. the student. So the amount of base support that the student would have in St. James, using St. Mrs. Smith: In all due respect, could the James as the example, would be lost to St. Minister then explain why $20 has been allotted James, but the money that the new division as what a student will miss. Please clarify this would gain would be dependent upon the for me. assessment in the new division. So it is not a constant figure. Each division has a different Mr. Caldwell: That was in the examp le of the assessment rate, enrolment rate and so forth. So St. James School Division, with approximately it would depend upon the division to which the 10,000 students and approximately a $200,000 student is going. adjustment based on the choice question that was asked. That is where it came from. * (16:30)

Mrs. Smith: So then could we use St. James Mrs. Smith: So $20 per student might not be School Division as an example just to clarifythis accurate, depending on whether the student is whole process? How much money then per travelling to a richer division or a poorer student is given to each student to attend, let us division. Could the Minister please clarifythat? say, St. James Collegiate, Madam Chair? Mr. Caldwell: Maybe there is a bit of confusion Mr. Caldwell: I take the Member's point. I was between the supplementary amount and the making averages based upon the St. James amount of funding related to Schools of Choice. School Division with approximately $200,000 The $20 figure was the average of the $200,000 and 10,000 students. The St. James Division has and change that St. James lost in 2000-2001, been allocated $30 million and change, divided by the 10 000 students that St. James approximately $3200 per student in St James­ School Division has. If the student is leaving, Assiniboia School Division, and approximately a and we are using St. James as the example here differential of $20 per student with regard to the now pretty extensively, so we might as well stick question that the Member was asking, s��hools of with it, the student that would be leaving St. choice and so fo rth. James would take with him or her the amount of money that would be dedicated to that student in Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister then advise this the St. James School Division. But that total committee what percentage of that money would amount may not be the same amount if the be lost from that student if he or she transfers to student went to St. Vital or Winnipeg 1 or so another school division in the city? forth, because there is a diffe rent assessment, a diffe rent level of support literally for each school Mr. Caldwell: The division would lose most of division in the province of Manitoba, depending it. They would lose all the base support. So most upon their enrolment rates, depending upon their of it would be lost if the student left. assessment, the property tax rates and so forth.

Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister reclarify that Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister clarify? I am again? still confused as to how this really works. I daresay I think perhaps the Minister needs some clarification in this. We are both in the same Mr. Caldwell: All the base support would be canoe here, I think. There is also the element of lost with that student, most of it would be lost, transfer fees as well for these same students. not all of it, but most of it would be lost if the How does the transfer fee affect the money that student leftthe division. The base support would goes to that student? all be lost. It would go. Mr. Caldwell: The receiving division charges Mrs. Smith: So, ifthe base would be lost, how the sending division a transfer fe e. The transfer much money would actually go with that student fe e is dependent upon the local levy in the to a neighbouring school division? receiving division. It is very complex. It is 3772 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 almost like property assessment generally. It is Madam Chairperson: Will the Committee of kind of an arcane science, almost like reading Supply please come to order. The floor is open entrails of a disembowelled goat. I could give for questions. some standard transfer fe es. This gives an illustration of how transfer fe es diffe rentiate Mrs. Smith: Going back to our questioning just between divisions. The transfer fe e per pupil in for fu rther clarification, it is my understanding Winnipeg 1 is $1,632. The transfer fe e in St. that at this point supplementary fu nding is only James-Assiniboia is $1 ,291. The transfer fee in available to residents of the school division per Hanover, fo r example, is $817, more than half as resident pupil under age 21 in the province. So. much as it is in Winnipeg 1. The transfer fe es to clarify, Madam Chair, can the Minister clarify range from $801 in the Sprague Consolidated to that the supplementary fu nding does not go with $1,800 in the Leaf Rapids School Division. So the student when they leave the school division? there is quite a wide range of transfer fe es. The provincial average is $1 ,307, but it really does Mr. Caldwell: That is accurate. depend upon what the local property assess­ ments are per division. Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, could the Minister clarify fo r this committee? As I have stated I would be very pleased if the Member so earlier, the reasons why I have pursued this line desires. I know that I have sat through a number of questioning is I am hearing things like schools of these briefing sessions myself to try and get a are having to turn away students from out of handle on the whole issue of assessment and division because they cannot afford to receive supplementary fu nding and so forth. Now, my the students. deputies are laughing at me. I am afraid it has come to that. But I would be pleased to have the Could the Minister comment on this? Is this Member and any of her colleagues, frankly, that a reasonable statement that has been made, and, would like to have a session with the senior staff if not, could he please explain why this may be from the Finance branch to have a briefing accurate or it may be an overexaggeration, and session because, as the Member points out, it this is due to the questioning that I have had. truly is a very complex issue with all sorts of variables independent of the individual divisions Mr. Caldwell: No, it is not an accurate with which the issue of transfers occurs. statement that you have been hearing fr om the field. Mr. Power just advises me that he has not Mrs. Smith: I thank the Minister for that semi­ heard from anyone in the field in this regard, so I clarification. We are getting there. Could the can only speculate on why individuals would be Minister please advise this committee what contacting you and stating such. Sorry, it is Mr. percentage of funding to school divisions is Power. I am told he is not Power. Although he supplementary funding? has tremendous powers, he is Steve Power. Mr. Power has not had any formal complaints fr om Mr. Caldwell: About $35 million of the $811 the field or contact from the field in this regard, million, just a little over 4 percent is and the statement that has been relayed to you is supplemental. Madam Chair, if I could, I see you inaccurate, I am told. are getting up, too, would you mind if we took a five-minute break? Mrs. Smith: With all due respect, it is irrelevant whether Mr. Power has had this kind of Madam Chairperson: Is it the will of the questioning from the field. I would give a reason Committee to take a five-minute break? for people calling my office is it is because I am [A greed] the Education critic. The Committee recessedat 4:36 The reason why I have continued to get these calls from time to time with concerns-and this is why this line of questioning has been pursued. I know, with all due respect, Madam The Committee resumed at 4:51 Chair, that because Mr. Power is under a July I 0, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3773 diffe rent government right now and the:y do not of the previous funding formula which provided want to get politically involved, I think these to adult learners support for things like questions from the people who have phoned are transportation, library services, clinical services, legitimate concerns, and it would be good to be and so forth, that are more accurately associated able to put their minds at ease. with kindergarten to S4 students, as opposed to adult learners. So there was this past year a I know, Madam Chair, I will put on the restructuring of funding to adult learners vis-a­ record and I have been told that, you know, vis funding to child learners in the public school sometimes people are reluctant-I think Mr. system. So I understand that there has been some Power can appreciate this too-to call, f:specially concern raised in the field in that regard. I made whether it was under the former government or note of Morris-MacDonald's commentary to the our government, but I have had these questions. Department about that reality earlier. What I want to be able to do is to be able to have the answers on the record and to be able to send But in terms of the Schools of Choice and them a copy of the answer on the record to the abilities of students to move in and out of reassure them. divisions, receiving divisions typically gain resources for students entering into the receiving The concerns that I have had, and J am sure division. There is no restriction on a choice that the Minister will appreciate this, I am tdling you may be, in fact, consequential to the funding of quite categorically what I have heard and the individual students. Again, senior staff is queries that have come to my office. I nodding its concurrence with that, so we are all understand, too, the complexities of fu nding, in it together. but, Madam Chair, does the Minister fe el that this new allocation of supplementary funding Mrs. Smith: Having said this then, could the will not impact the students or the school variable be, in some school divisions, Madam divisions in any significant way? Chair, the number of students that have been in neighbouring school divisions that have for Mr. Caldwell: Well, Madam Chairpf:rson, the whatever reasons transferred to a new school divisions gain resources from students moving division, and perhaps this might have caused the into their division. The senior civil servants are concern because that would impact on the nodding their heads yes to that. Divisions classroom? receiving a student get an average cost of that student coming into the division but usually only * (17:00) have to spend a marginal cost for adding a student or two to a class. So, typically, student Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chair, I am advised there divisions gain resources by students coming into may be some impacts where children wanting to their division. There is nodding all around me. I exercise school of choice into a division may be note that everybody here, save for Mr. Levin, precluded from doing so. Because individual has served fo r many administrations in schools are at capacity or divisions are already at government, so there is no partisanship capacity, or the addition of one more student or expressed there at all. two more students may necessitate the creation of an entire new class, a decision is made not to The comments that are being transmitted to have that occur. But systemically, there is not the Member, Madam Chairperson, the senior any reason for that. It was noted to underscore, it administration again stress that they a.re largely is not a funding issue. If indeed that is occurring, inaccurate. I do not know how to respond better and I believe it is even in my own home than to say that. It is a concern. We are division, I know that I have had concerns that concerned, truly, about funding the public school way, it has more to do with capacity of existing system appropriately. We did have an explosion infrastructure than any single other issue. of expenditures that were related to the increase in adult learners last year. I know that there have Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, so to clarify, what been some impacts upon those divisions that had we are saying is the supplementary funding does a large number of adult learners take advantage not go with the student to a neighbouring 3774 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 division as the Minister has stated. I do not want Mr. Caldwell: Supplemental fu nding, Madam to put words in the Minister's mouth, I want to Chairperson, is related to individual divisions' just clarify, but it should not have a significant assessment per pupil. It is not related to schools impact on the student unless the classroom is at of choice or opportunities for students to move fu ll capacity, so that supplementary funding that from division to division. The primary factor in is not available and if there are several students terms of schools of choice being limited fo r involved as supplementary fu nding might have parents or children is the available infrastructure an impact, this is why things went fo rward. within the receiving division. It is not related to supplemental fu nding at all. Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chair, the statement has been made to me by senior staff that no division Mrs. Smith: I understand that, Madam Chair, would refuse to take a student because of the but I think the diffe rence is the fu nding supplemental funding issue. It is fu ndamentally equalization, and the supplementary fu nding not related in any substantive way. The decision now reads "per resident pupil under 21 in the is primarily based upon capacities of existing province" instead of "per eligible pupil under the infrastructure. age of 21 in the province." Is this accurate?

Mrs. Smith: Well, I thank you fo r that Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, it is clarification. I guess, Madam Chair, when I am accurate. It is per resident pupil as opposed to hearing these things this is why I needed to come the previously existing protocol. today and ask these questions. You know, I have had Mr. Power explain things and go through it Mrs. Smith: I think we have clarified that the earlier. I am still having some phone calls, quite supplementary fu nding indeed does not go with honestly, come through with concerned princi­ the student, but it is of such a nature that it pals having to tum students away because the should not have an impact as the Minister has fu ll fu nding is not there. But what you are saying described. is that is not the real reason. The real reason would be the classroom is to capacity and so one Mr. Caldwell: There has been, as was noted or two students would cause a new classroom earlier, a small impact on a small number of probably to be created and so that would cause school divisions. In the best opinion of the the problem. So, in effect, the fe ar that I have Department, however, this has not made any heard about schools of choice being closed substantive change in a division's willingness to down, would the Minister comment on that? accept students from other divisions. The implications for the acceptance fr om other Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chair, it is safe to say divisions is primarily related to capacities and that students and parents are going to continue to available infrastructure within divisions. be able to exercise choice in what schools they Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, could we move on attend. The primary mitigating factor in limiting to 16.6.(a)? And I thank you, Doctor Farthing that is existing capacities within divisions or and Mr. Power. I thank you very much for your within schools. assistance in this as well.

Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, I thank the Minister Under Training and Continuing Education, fo r those answers. I have consulted with my Madam Chair, I recall the Minister saying, assistant, as well, and we have clarified the "Access programs are currently being reviewed questions that have come to our office. These and will be redesigned as required to meet the were real and legitimate concerns. So, basically, needs of a new economy." However, I note the what the Minister has said the fu nding is 4 Access programs are not listed anywhere on the percent, I think you stated a little earlier. Yes, organizational chart. Could the Minister please supplementary fu nding, and that does not go clarifywhat is happening to the progrram while it with the student and that should not impact in a is under review? significant manner, although it might to some extent with a large group of students. *(17:10) July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3775

Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, the Access Mr. Caldwell: It is accurate. The College programs are not on the org chart because they Expansion Initiative did hire Doctor Nordman. are integral to the operations of the institutions Doctor Nordman was chosen as part of the which we fu nd. They are integral to the standard civil service hiring protocol whereby universities and colleges primarily. So we work we advertised fo r the position and-oh, no, we with our partners in the universities and colleges did not. I am sorry. Wrong person. Doctor to enhance Access programs in partnership. Nordman was appointed by the Province to head up the College Expansion Initiative and has been Mrs. Smith: I thank the Minister for that in that position now for a number of months. clarification. Madam Chair, could the Minister clarify: How will the Department determine Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister please clarify whether or not its policies and programs will why this office was created when the Council on respond to, and I quote the Minister, Post-Secondary Education has previously taken accessibility and critical issues SUJTounding care of this kind of initiative? inclusion with our First Nations and Aboriginal population in the province? Mr. Caldwell: Primarily it was to give the College Expansion Initiative a visible champion Mr. Caldwell: Fundamentally, by monitoring within the civil service. The provincial the participation and success rates from pro­ government recognized the College Expansion grams at the post-secondary level. Initiative, as did I believe the previous administration recognize the importance of Mrs. Smith: To clarify, Madam Chair, so the enhancing colleges system-wide. When the programs that are under review, like the Access present government came to power in September programs, are in place and will be continued. Is it was determined that we wanted to have a that the intent ofthis Minister? significantly enhanced profile for the College Expansion that was committed to by the government during the election campaign. We Mr. Caldwell: Yes, it is accurate to say that the fe lt it was very important to have a visible programs that are in place will continue. The champion in the post-secondary system government is interested in strengthening the advocating specifically for the College existing programs in partnership with the post­ Expansion Initiative. It was essentially to have a secondary institutions. That is what the review is champion, a high-profile advocate working currently assessing, how best we can strengthen closely with the Council on Post-Secondary access programs across the system. Education, but working with some independence and some profile in addition to the Council on Mrs. Smith: Thank you so much. I appreciate Post-Secondary Education. So it was more of a that clarification. I thank the Minister for that. consequence of the importance and significance With the Minister's permission, I wou:ld like to, placed on the College Expansion Initiative by as I stated earlier, I had four things we were the current governmentthat led to the decision to going to cover today. I know the Minister has have a director for this post. brought staff today. Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister just clarify: I have some questions now on the Red River Does the Council require an executive director initiative that the Minister could clarify for us as position when there is only one or two staff to well if we could at this time. Okay. Thank you. supervise at this time? The new government created a new and independent office, I understand, to implement Mr. Caldwell: The rank of the position, Madam the College Expansion Initiative. A pre:ss release Chairperson, does not relate so much to the in January or February announced Dr. Curtis number of staff that the position has but more to Nordman, formerly the Dean of Continuing the capacity of the director to relate at a level of Education from the University of Winnipeg, as equality with college and university presidents the new executive director for the initiative. Is as well as CEOs and senior business people in this the case? the wider business community. 3776 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister clarify:Will the the ADM responsible fo r the post-secondary side Council on Post-Secondary Education continue of the Department's operation. to exist? Doctor Nordman reports to Doctor Levin Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, yes, the and myself on a regular basis, because of the Council on Post-Secondary Education will importance that the Government places on the continue to exist. I believe we discussed it, it College Expansion Initiative as a catalyst fo r seems to me, a week or two ago, when growth in Manitoba's college system. previously we were touching upon the Council on Post-Secondary Education, particularly the Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister just outline appointment of Mr. Robertson as the new chair what experience the new executive director does of the Council on Post-Secondary Education, have to oversee the expansion of the college moving from a previously fu ll-time chair to the system independent of COPSE? I understand, part-time chair capacity of Mr. Robertson. Madame Chair, that maybe the Minister could clarify this. I understand that Doctor Nordman, We view the Council on Post-Secondary maybe the Minister could help me with this, I do Education as being a very, very valuable not know whether this is correct or not, so organization, co-ordinating and providing the maybe the Minister could clarify, but I best advice on the development of post­ understand that Mr. Nordman was an secondary programs in the province of unsuccessful candidate fo r the presidency of Manitoba, as well as capital projects and general ACC. I just wondered if he could clarify. I direction of the post-secondary sector, across believe that this kind of position needs to be systems. available fo r people who can work collaboratively with all colleges and college The College Expansion Initiative, which is a presidents. So if the Minister could clarify that specific initiative of this government, was for this committee, I would appreciate it. determined as being a cornerstone of policy for significant expansion of the college sector. It * (17:20) was fe lt that an executive director was valuable to have in place for dealing on a position of equal footing with college and university Mr. Caldwell: Doctor Nordman has extensive presidents as well as senior members of the experience as an instructor at the community business community. college level in British Columbia, has been involved in labour force development, and also Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, just to clarify, I has an extensive background in continuing understand Dr. Curtis Nordman was formerly the education, all of which speaks to the close Dean of Continuing Education for the University integration that we desire as a government to of Winnipeg. have occur between the college and university sectors as well as the transition fr om college and Mr. Caldwell: That is correct. university to work.

Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister clarify if a I do not know about Doctor Nordman's special position is required for college expansion application for a community college in Manitoba initiatives? Would it not be more appropriate for or any other job opportunities that he might be it to report to the executive director of COPSE to pursuing or might have pursued. But I do know maintain the integrity of developing the post­ that he has significant experience at the secondary system as a system, or could the community college level as well as at the Minister clarify the rationale for why this was university level. We fe lt it was desirable to have done? someone in place that had extensive experience with the two sectors, with the two post­ Mr. Caldwell: Doctor Nordman works closely secondary sectors, the college sector and the with COPSE. There are regular meetings in fact university sector, as well as familiarity with with Doctor LeTourneau as well Pat Rowantree, continuing education and workforce issues. July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3777

Mrs. Smith: I thank the Minister for that that the Council on Post-Secondary Education clarification. As a new executive director, I has always done in the past and is capable of understand was a member of the Minister's doing now. For example, in 1999 to 2000, the transition team. College Expansion budget was $4 million and was handled by the existing COPSE staff. In Mr. Caldwell: There is no transition team 2000 to 2001 it is $5.1 million. Does the anymore. Obviously we have been in power for Minister have any comment on that? That a number of months. I do not know what took clarifies the reason why I am asking this place before I was sworn in as minister. He did question. work for me as an adviser in my first couple of months as a minister. Doctor Nordman was Mr. Caldwell: Well, the primary reason that we seconded from the University of Winnipeg to the have a director of the College Expansion Department to work in an advisory capacity with Initiative as outlined earlier is because this is a me fo r the firstcouple of months. major commitment of the provincial government to have the largest single investment in Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister please clarify community colleges in a mandate in the history who the new executive director is accountable of the province of Manitoba. It is a major to? Who does he report to? undertaking by the Government of Manitoba, a tremendous commitment to growth in the Mr. Caldwell: Doctor Nordman has a direct college sector, strategic growth in the college accountability to the Deputy Minister of sector. We need and fe el very strongly that the Education and Training, Dr. Ben Levin, Oxford importance of this initiative, being central to the and Columbia graduates, I believe, Harvard. educational mandate of the Government at the post-secondary level, requires a considerable Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister clarify: Has the focus on a specific action and that action being new executive director ever run for the New the doubling of college spaces during the Democratics at any point in time, the NDP at mandate of the Government. any time? It was determined, very correctly in my Mr. Caldwell: I have not the foggiiest idea view, that we needed an individual of significant Joining us now is Dr. Leo LeTourneau fo r the stature and familiarity both with the college and post-secondary side. Maybe Doctor LeTourneau post-secondary system to put into reality our has an idea. Doctor LeTourneau believes so, but commitment to the college expansion. Doctor I do not know. Nordman is an Oxford graduate and is someone with considerable experience both in the college Mrs. Smith: Could the Minister pleas•e instruct and university sector. He fit that bill very Doctor LeTourneau to bring that information admirably, and the reason clearly why there is a back to this committee, please? It would be good director for this initiative reflects the importance to clarify whether the new director actually has that the Government places on this particular run fo r the NDP party, when and where .. initiative and the desire to have this initiative succeed with the best possible result. Mr. Caldwell: I will not give it over 1:0 Doctor LeTourneau because he is a civil servant, but I Mrs. Smith: I thank the Minister for that will make an endeavour myself to find out if rationale and for the answer. Madam Chair, the Doctor Nordman has ever run for the NDP, supplemental Estimates show a commitment of although I do not know exactly what it has to do $230,000 or so for the new office of the College with the Estimates process. Expansion Initiative. I understand this includes salaries, rent, operating expenses. I would like to Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, to clarifywhat it has know what the new director's salary is, and my to do with the Estimates process, I guess what understanding is there is two staff involved. So if this committee would like to clarify is why the the Minister could clarify the reason $230,000 Government is spending almost a quarter of a was set aside for the College Expansi9n million dollars annually to duplicate a function Initiative, and if this is indeed an accurate 3778 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000 statement or if it is something else, I would Mr. Caldwell: Because of the simplest reason; appreciate the clarification. there was no space in the COPSE office when we located the College Expansion Initiative. I mentioned it earlier in my discussion, and maybe Mr. Caldwell: On page 159 of the Estimates we will just have to agree to disagree on it, but I book, the Managerial salary, there are three staff really do not perceive there being any people for the College Expansion Initiative. The duplication of service whatsoever. The College managerial staff position, which is Doctor Expansion Initiative, the director and his office, Nordman's, is $94,000, which, I understand, is was fo rmed to undertake the most significant some fe w thousand dollars less than he was expansion in Manitoba's history of the commu­ making at the University of Winnipeg. Then two nity college sector. support staff coming in: Professional support staff/Technical support staff, $46,000; It is a major undertaking, a very ambitious Administrative Support at $30,000; Employee undertaking, and one which the Government of Benefits at $17,000, fo r a total of $188,000 for Manitoba fe lt required, and rightly so, a very that entire branch. high profile director working in close partnership with the Council on Post-Secondary I should also add, Madam Chair, since we Education, but separate from it in managing are spending some time on Doctor Nordman's what is a very ambitious undertaking and political background, I will try and find out a specifically having a fo cus on the College little bit more about it. I know that we do have in Expansion Initiative in the province of the Department a number of individuals who Manitoba. have worked on a variety of political campaigns fo r all three political parties in the Manitoba There is tremendous liaison that takes place Legislature: New Democrats, Liberals, and between COPSE and the executive director of Conservatives. I really do not concern myself the College Expansion Initiative, but the with the political stripe of the individual that Government was very adamant and very works for the Department, nor do I think I determined that the College Expansion Initiative should. I am more concerned about their level of will succeed. There is going to be tremendous expertise and professionalism and what they can work that has to be undertaken to make it bring to education in the province of Manitoba. succeed, and we fe lt very strongly that an office Under that criteria is why we chose Doctor focused on the College Expansion Initiative in Nordman, and under that criteria is why the province of Manitoba was required to individuals continue to work for the Department succeed in this very ambitious undertaking. very capably, whatever political stripe they are, to promote educational excellence in the province of Manitoba. I am very proud of the So we may have a disagreement about Department of Education and Training and all duplication of services, but this is something that staff members, regardless of what political stripe has never happened in the province of Manitoba they may have. before in terms of focusing so many resources in such a short time on such an ambitious project. * (17:30) For those reasons, we fe lt, again correctly I believe, that a director for the College Expansion Mrs. Smith: I appreciate the Minister's com­ Initiative was preferable to having the entire ments. Madam Chair, over the fo ur years of the bailiwick put under the Council on Post­ College Expansion Initiative, this will result in Secondary Education, which is involved, in almost a million dollars diverted from programs addition to the College Expansion, as the into what is believed to be duplicated Member knows, with every other post-secondary administrative overhead. Could the Minister institution in the province of Manitoba, and the clarify why the office of the College Expansion very, very tremendous need of those institutions Initiative is not located within the existing and the tremendous demands that those offices of COPSE? Does locating it in separate institutions place on government from year to space add to the administrative overheads costs? year. July 10, 2000 LEG ISLATJ[VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3779

Mrs. Smith: In all due respect, Madam Chair, as Nordman and Dr. Pat Rowantree to ensure co­ the Minister has stated, the partnership between ordination not only with the Council on Post­ COPSE and the College Expansion Initiative is Secondary Education but also with the training of paramount importance. The purpose of and adult education components of the COPSE was to bring colleges and university Department generally. So it is a very complex planning and operations together, and by this undertaking, but more importantly, as I have minister's admission, this partnership is very stressed over and over, it is the single largest important. initiative in Manitoba's history in the post­ secondary sector, with a very, very ambitious With all due respect, to have one person at a program that it hopes to achieve in a relatively salary of $93,000-plus and support staff and new short time period. offices, I am not sure that this will fly with the public. Unless we can have some rationale why So I think it is important to note that the the COPSE and the College Expansion Initiative reasons for having a separate office in this regard is not housed together, even though there is no are because there is literally tens of millions of room, findinga joint officeand working together dollars, $68 million projected over four years to in collaboration. be dedicated towards the College Expansion Initiative, very significant dollars, very signifi­ Could the Minister please expand on this? cant levels of support that require some close working relationship with the College Expansion Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, I think it is Initiative in the field without diverting focus to important to note that all new college programs other operations of the college or post-secondary go through the Council on Post-Secondary system. Education for approval and review. There is a true partnership-well, not even a partnership. Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, thank you for your The Council on Post-Secondary Education is the comments, Mr. Minister. senior body, there is no doubt about it. For further clarification, the Minister talked The point that I have been trying to make is about a very ambitious initiative that is taking that this is the single largest expansion initiative place here in the province. Does the Minister of the college system in Manitoba's history, and intend to take away these locations, college we were not going to have that initiative locations, from the business industry and undertaken as just another item of business community and locating them at the University under the Council on Post-Secondary Education. of Winnipeg? Is that the intent for the downtown locations? We were very determined to put an independent face, an independent focus so that there would be no divergence of attention to the Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, there has task at hand, which as I have said, is the single not been a decision (a) on whether there is going largest expansion of the college syst,em in the to be a new building at all yet, or (b) at what province of Manitoba's history. So wt� fe lt very location the new building will be placed in. The strongly, to ensure the success of the College decision has yet to be made upon whether or not Expansion Initiative, to ensure that attention we are going to build or where we are going to would not be diverted from the task of doubling build, if indeed the Government does build. I the college spaces, and to ensure that there was a know that there has been a lot of media very high profile and capable individual at the speculation around this issue more recently vis­ head of the College Expansion Initiative, that an a-vis the University of Winnipeg, Red River office should be structured to bring that initiative Community College, education hub on Spence to fruition. Street or the Princess Street development across from the Public Safety Building in the Exchange There is a steering committee for the District, but that is media speculation. The College Expansion Initiative comprisiing of Dr. assessment on the best spending of the Ben Levin, Dr. Leo LeTourneau, Dr. Curtis educational dollar in the province of Manitoba 3780 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000 vis-a-vis a new construction project is yet to be Could the Minister clarify will the made. developers who expended substantial amounts of money in good fa ith on developing proposals, is Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, could this minister there any chance, in the event that there is a clarify: Is this government looking at an change of plans, or the original plan, about alternate location for the college expansion? location, are there any plans to compensate these developers at all for the money that they have * (17:40) put into this?

Mr. Caldwell: The Government is committed to Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, requests for doing due diligence on each and every project, proposals are requests for proposals, and I do not whether it is in education or any place else in the want to speculate on what might happen in the Government, under the purview of government future. There has not been a decision made one operations. We are assessing all options, have way or the other on the Princess Street proposal had a number of assessments with regard to the which was the RFP that was issued. In any best educational rationale fo r any expansion in request fo r proposals, decisions are made based terms of buildings, but we are committed to upon what proposals come forth. That decision having due diligence before expending precious has not been made yet. Upon a decision being educational dollars. We are very determined that made, I will be in a better position to answer that decisions be made with fu ll understanding of the particular question, but at this stage, we would implications for our expenditures and our be purely and simply dealing with hypotheticals. decisions. Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, could the Minister More students, of course, in the college clarify this new plan? Is it a precursor to the system means more spaces are required, but we merger of the college and the university? Is there want to spend dollars primarily on programs and any aspect of that possibility in the forefront? not on buildings. Of course, one of the major challenges of the College Expansion Initiative will be to expand programming while Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chair, I assume the minimizing expenditures on infrastructure. There Member is talking about the Spence Street are a number of ways that this may be education hub. There is no plan. There has not undertaken. The innovative use of technology, been a plan, and there is no plan articulated fo r the development of partnerships with other the merger of Red River Community College delivery agents, training in the workplace, the and the University of Winnipeg. There is a very use of underutilized public facilities can all assist real desire in government and, frankly, within in making the training dollars of the College the university and college sector to have more Expansion Initiative go farther. articulation of programs.

New capacity will be entertained and is I know that the Creative Communication being entertained with regard to Princess program, for example, at Red River College, promenade, the Princess street structure, as well which provides a two-year diploma, can be as the Spence Street opportunity. But only as a translated into a fo ur-year degree in terms of last resort will education dollars be spent on new articulating the Red River program to the buildings and only after a thorough examination University of Winnipeg. There are a number of of all available options. So we are still programs at the University of Winnipeg and Red undertaking a process of due diligence in this River College that do have joint programs regard, and it is going to be placed into the already. It is something that this government context of the College Expansion Initiative as a encourages, more articulation between the whole, how we best can get educational dollars college sector and the university sector. In fact, I into programs, into brains and not bricks. would stretch that even fu rther to suggest there are some opportunities for articulation between Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, I thank the Minister the workforce and the college and/or university fo r the comments. sector. July I 0, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3781

So we do have a commitment to break down have articulation between universities and artificial barriers to education between community colleges, that a joint program has institutions, and between institutions and the been developed in child care and child workplace, and even between the public school development between the University of sector and the post-secondary sector. That is a Winnipeg and Red River College. As well, the philosophical stand of this government, that we Red River College business administration wish to maximize the use of our educational program has got a cross-articulation with the resources. But there is no plan ever been bachelor of arts degree program in admini­ discussed in the Department to have the strative studies at the University of Winnipeg. university and Red River College amalgamate or The Red River College geographic information merge. It has never been discussed, nor is it systems and civil technology cluster of programs planned. are articulated with the University of Winnipeg's geography program. Joint baccalaureate pro­ Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, it would appear that grams also exist in chemistry, biology and the Minister would agree that taking these environmental science between Red River and colleges away fr om a business location would the U of W. As well, there is the joint creative not be in the best interests ofthe educatiion of the communications program, which I just pre­ students. talking about the merger and the viously discussed, the bachelor of communi­ partnership with business. cations program at the University of Winnipeg, with a cross-articulation with the two-year Madam Chair, it appears from press reports creative communications diploma at Red River. that cabinet is planning to entertain a proposal to build a $25-miilion facility for the college at the In 1998, Red River College and the U of W University of Winnipeg. Could the Minister began the joint delivery of the business and please clarify whether or not this report is industrial arts teacher education program. Out at something that is of speculation or a real the , graduates from the possibility? College's early childhood education program receive five credits in the child care Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chair, at this point it is concentration family studies degree program at complete speculation. There has not been a the University of Manitoba. There is also the decision made by government on whether to joint baccalaureate nursing program in proceed at all, let alone whether to proceed with partnership with the U of M. Now students take the educational hub at Spence Stre(�t or the their first three years at Red River College and Princess promenade or, frankly, whatever then transfer to the U of M for their fourth year. options cabinet may choose to discuss during An articulation agreement has also been reached cabinet's deliberation. in the mechanical engineering and technology program at Red River College and the industrial The current Red River College campus out engineering program at the University of on Notre Dame is not exactly in a business Manitoba. There is also an informal arrangement location, as I am sure the Member will between the electrical and civil engineering acknowledge, out by the airport. Certainly, both technology program cluster, giving one year of locations downtown: the Spence Stree1t hub and credit towards an engineering degree at the the Princess Street option would be far closer University of Manitoba. and far more accessible to the business community than the Notre Dame campus. Having said that, it should be noted that Red At Brandon University, there is a two-plus­ River College has a fantastic relationship with two arrangement with Brandon University and the business community now, and no doubt that Red River College in the business administration will continue in the future. and early childhood education programs. As well, graduates of electrical and electronic I also think it is important to mention, again, in technology can receive two years' credit towards terms of breaking down barriers between a degree in applied physics at Brandon institutions and having programs that are able to University, and then there are a number of 3782 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000 programs at Athabasca University with Red build option that will be before Cabinet in the River. future.

* (17:50) The University of Winnipeg has also been consulted with regard to the Spence Street option So there are a lot of transfer arrangements to get their advice on potentials that may or may between Red River College and the universities not exist on the Spence Street educational hub in the province of Manitoba, as well as option, but we are in constant dialogue with the universities outside the province of Manitoba. college presidents and with the university This government is determined to continue to presidents on a wide variety of issues, not the build upon that ability to have cross­ least of which is the College Expansion Initiative articulations, and indeed to try and break down but also including issues revolving around barriers wherever we can between institutions affordability and accessibility, the bursary and between post-secondary sectors. I think that program, the tuition rebate, the capital needs of is something that the previous government, the universities, the operating needs of the obviously, with these programs, was also universities, general philosophical discussions committed to during their tenure in government. around targeting sectors for investment at the college and university level, so we have a very Mrs. Smith: Thank you very much, Minister, open dialogue with the college presidents and for that clarification. Could the Minister advise the university presidents in regard to all issues this committee: What is the call date, or when is around post-secondary education in the province the Minister making his decision regarding Red of Manitoba. River? My last meeting with the President of the Mr. Caldwell: It will be a cabinet decision, and University of Winnipeg and the President of Red it will happen in due course. We are committed, River College, Dr. Connie Rooke, and President as I mentioned earlier, to significant due Tkachuk took place about two weeks ago, just diligence on this particular issue. It is a major before the two individuals went on some expenditure of Government, and we want to vacation time fo r the summer months. We had a ensure that due diligence is carried out in this very good discussion about what opportunities regard, to the greatest degree possible, bearing in may exist at both sites. mind that educational factors will be the primary consideration in making the decision on whether Mrs. Smith: Madam Chair, I believe my to build and, if to build, where to build. colleague has a couple of questions he would like to put forward at this time. Mrs. Smith: I have one more question on this topic, and then my colleague the Member for Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Portage (M,r. Faurschou) has a couple of Okay, quick short snappers. I think we have only questions he would like to ask as well. Number fo ur minutes lefthere. In regard to your strategic one, Madam Chair, could the Minister please planning in the college expansion, has there been outline the consultation that he has gone through direction given that a greater co-operation exists with all the colleges regarding this initiative? between Assiniboine College and Red River What specific part of the colleges and what College? colleges have you met with in determining the ultimate decision about Red River? Mr. Caldwell: Both Assiniboine College and Mr. Caldwell: Madam Chairperson, I have met Red River College is what you referred to? with all the colleges' presidents a number of There is an ongoing discussion as to which is the times on the College Expansion Initiative. I appropriate sphere of activity for the colleges to know that Doctor LeTourneau and Doctor be involved with, conversations around distance Nordman have met extensively with the colleges ed issues, conversations around the nursing on the College Expansion Initiative and program, particularly at Assiniboine Community specifically with Red River College about the College and delivery of some of the critical July I 0, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3783 issues around the nursing program in rural Rondeau) was applauding as the Member was Manitoba, but it is an ongoing dialogue. making his comments. It is something that we share. It is a view that we share, and I thank him It is something that predates this government for those comments. frankly. They have been discussing their specific interests and spheres of activity for a number of Madam Chairperson: The hour being 6 p.m., years now, and there has been fruit borne, committee rise. particularly with cross-articulation between colleges and universities. We think that there is HEALTH still a long way to go. It is likely a process that will never end, frankly. I think that all three * (14:30) parties in the Legislature can agree that efforts to break down artificial barriers to Manitobans' Mr. Chairperson (Conrad Santos): Would the educational opportunities are very worthwhile to Committee of Supply come to order, please. This break down those barriers, and those sorts of section of the Committee of Supply has been discussions continue at perhaps a bit of an dealing with the Estimates of the Department of enhanced pace but nonetheless bearing upon the Health. Would the Minister's staff please enter basis that was established in the past to break the Chamber. down those barriers. We are on page 87 of the Estimates book. Mr. Faurschou: I want the Minister to really Resolution 21.1. Administration and Finance (b) come to grips with this particular situation Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee because there is so much of the resources. I am Benefits $558,100. Shall this item pass? pleased with his coined phrase "brains not bricks," that a lot of energy is expended in turf Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): protection. The Council on Post-Secondary While we wait for the particular departmental Education is the vehicle that I hope you continue staff to assemble, perhaps, I would take this to support and to bring to bear the crossover of opportunity to provide some information that credits and programming so continuing edu­ was requested previously by the Member fo r cation does truly exist in this province. Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger). First, I would like to table a copy of the organizational chart that My last question that I have time for here is was requested by the Member that deals with the to appreciate, though, that almost half the various capacities staffing occupying the various population is not in residency district. their positions as outlined in the chart in the Estimates principal residency distance to the principal book. So I will table three copies of that. post-secondary education institutions. I do want to bring the Minister's attention to the concept of The Member also requested information bringing the three universities together under regarding the employment history of Mr. Rick Campus Manitoba distance education program­ Dedi. Mr. Dedi's previous employment history ming and has anticipated to bring a thousand includes positions as executive director of students on-stream that probably would not have Manitoba Prior Learning Assessment Centre; been pursuing their university programming, director, College Secretariat, Manitoba which is an expansion of monumental Education and Training; project manager, magnitude. College Governance Initiative, Manitoba Education and Training, where he played a I want to stress with the Minister the significant role in the creation of board-governed importance of Distance Education and to making colleges in Manitoba; secretary, ministerial that available to the persons without the cost of advisory committee, Community College second residency. Governance. In the Department of Education and Training, Mr. Dedi was responsible for the Mr. Caldwell: I appreciate the Member's development and implementation of The remarks, and I do take them to heart. I agree. I Colleges Act and The Council on Post­ note that the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Secondary Education Act. 3784 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

Mr. Dedi came to the Department of within his areas of responsibility. Also, he has Education and Training from Red River College chaired and co-chaired committees involved in in 1990. He arrived in Manitoba in 1985 from reorganizational initiatives of provincial the Northwest Territories, where he served as structures and regional structures within the regional development officer in the central RCMP. These responsibilities have provided Arctic. Mr. Dedi is an experienced public sector extensive exposure to developing relationships at manager with extensive experience in (1) labour senior levels with government and private market programs, workplace education of post­ organizations. Mr. Barna has lived and worked secondary education and training, and (2) the in seven provinces and has been a resident of management of accountability relations with Manitoba fo r the past eight years. He holds external service delivery agencies. Mr. Dedi is several administrative and finance diplomas and not directly involved in labour negotiations but also has a Bachelor of Commerce. Honours is fam iliar with the requirement of management degree. and mandate development in a collective bar­ gaining environment, has extensive experience Mr. Chairperson, the Member also asked in workforce planning and policy development. with respect to panelled patients in hospitals in Mr. Dedi holds a community college diploma in Winnipeg. As of the week of June 21 to 27, electrical technology, an undergraduate degree in 2000, there were 38 persons in Winnipeg who social anthropology and a master's degree in were panelled and in hospital while waiting fo r a public administration. He is a career public personal care home bed. sector manager. The Member asked fo r the revised The Member also asked about the organization chart that reflects the names of employment history of Mr. Dwight Barna. Mr. individuals and that has been provided. The Barna has an extensive public service, 31 years Member asked fo r the names of political staff in fe deral, 10 months provincial. His employment the Minister's office. The fo llowing individuals history includes extensive training and form that group of individuals: Marla DiCandia. experience in a multitude of disciplines, Special Assistant; Evelyn Livingston. Executive including operational and administrative. Mr. Assistant; Kim Morrison, Policy Analyst; and Barnawas employed by the RCMP as a regular Terry Goertzen, Special Advisor. member for 31 years, the last 12 years at the commissioned officer rank. Upon retirement. The Member asked about cardiac patients Mr. Barna was at the rank of superintendent. leaving the province fo r transplant procedures. While employed by the RCMP, Mr. Barna spent The number of patients who leftthe province fo r the last 20 years in the administrative discipline. transplant procedures in '95-96 was fo ur; '96-97 During the last 12 years, Mr. Barna acted as was six; '97-98 was fo ur; '98-99 was five; '99- officer in charge of financial services and 2000 was two. supply, corporate management, a responsibility that is similar to the current ADM position he is On July 5, the Member asked the number of filling. Duties include finance budgeting, hearts donated from the province of Manitoba. planning, auditing, comptrollership, property In 1999, two hearts were harvested from donors management, capital planning, material manage­ in Manitoba and were eligible fo r transplant. ment and administration. These two organs were exported out of province, as a match in Manitoba was not available fo r the Upon his leaving the RCMP, Mr. Barnawas organs and Manitoba does not currently perform managing a staff of approximately 50 heart transplants. In 1995, five hearts were employees, many at the professional, donated that were deemed eligible fo r a valve accounting, administrative and property manage­ use. ment level. He has managed personnel fo r the past 20 years and has extensive management Registered potential organs are not available training at recognizing institutions. Mr. Barna in the province of Manitoba at this time. British has been extensively involved in change Columbia, Nova Scotia and Territory are management, having made significant changes the only places in Canada with a central donor July I 0, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3785 registry. As per direction received from the this one particular case. I probably will give him Minister of Health, a committee of professional a call a bit later just to fo llow up on that. stakeholders has recently been formed in the province of Manitoba to present recom­ I am also very pleased to see that there was a mendations to improve organ donation in committee struck to look at the issue of organ Manitoba. donors in Manitoba, certainly a proactive approach, and that is a very, very positive one. I The Member also raised the case of an think it is a very good initiative to undertake in individual regarding the care rendered to her Manitoba. So I think that is a good initiative, and mother, now deceased, while a patient at I am glad to see it happening. Victoria General Hospital. Two things, I think, Mr. Chairperson: I will just outline the I would like to start today's questioning by highlights from the Department for the Member. looking at waiting lists. I just have some brief If the Member wishes further elaboration on this questions, really, in terms of what those waiting considering personal health information and the lists are for the various tests, surgeries and related, I want to be very careful in terms of the procedures. I guess I will start with MRis. I release ofthis information. wonder if the Minister could tell us how many people are on the waiting list for MRis. I have been advised that an investigation was conducted by the Victoria General Hospital Mr. Chomiak: If the Member is asking the and the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority number of people on the waiting lists, I do not regarding the care of that particular individual at have that data in front of me at this point. the Victoria General Hospital and St. Boniface General Hospital. I understand that staff in the Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister would Department of Health have also been involved in be prepared to provide that information, either this investigation. I have been advised that the later on in Estimates or in a section where it policies and procedures regarding reporting might be more appropriate for me to ask it, or if echocardiogram test results performed at SBGH he would be willing to table that particular bit of have been changed as a result of this information. investigation. Policies and procedures of the VGH regarding the transferring of medical care Mr. Chomiak: I am prepared to provide the fr om one physician to another has also been information. Generally, my experience in the changed as a result of this investigation. The past with Health has been the lists have been WRHA advises that they are confidentthat these provided in terms of weeks of waiting lists or changes could prevent similar occurrences in the those kinds of circumstances. In terms of the future. number of people on waiting lists, I generally do not think that that information has been made * (14:40) available. I do not even know if it is readily obtainable because of the regional and the Keeping in mind the difficulties and, of various matters. But what I can provide the course, the fu nctions under The Personal Health Member, I can provide the Member with lists on Information Act, I am quite prepared to discuss all of the areas, sort of the standard list that we this with the Member, where I can, in length provide in all of the areas. I am prepared to do with respect to this particular matter. that.

There are several other outstanding requests Mrs. Driedger: Would the Minister have before from the Member, which we will also endeavour him information on the weeks or, you know, the to provide. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. length of time people are waiting for an MRI?

Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I would Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I do have like to thank the Minister for that information. I that. I can indicate that, in May of 1999, the am particularly pleased that he has looked into waiting list for MRI adults was 19 weeks, and in 3786 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

May of this year the length for an adult is 8 sonographers and the recruitment and retention weeks. of, and, as we speak, there actually is a plan that we are reviewing now. Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister provide that same information for ultrasound? So in add ition to the fact that this year's budget is going to see an increase of thousands Mr. Chomiak: The ultrasound adult waiting of tests more fo r ultrasound, the crucial issue lists were eight weeks in May, and they are now appears to be revolving around retention and sixteen weeks, despite the fact that we are recruitment of staff, about which we will be actually providing more tests than last year. This bringing fo rward a plan shortly to try to come to year's budget, under which we are dealing today, grips. Internally, I have asked that we try to has included an additional fu nding for a con­ come to grips with this certainly by year-end siderable number of tests this year. with respect to programs and mechanisms in place, because it is one of these areas where Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could despite the increase in the number of tests and just confirm for me: Was he meaning that in despite the increase of fu nding, the waiting list is May of '99 it was eight weeks and in May of this more of a problem. year it was sixteen weeks? I wonder if he could give any indication of why it might have Now, that also involves clinical application increased. and the clinical utilization of ultrasounds which is an interesting area and which is an area that Mr. Chomiak: That is, in fact, part of a special we have to continue to work on. But I can proj ect and process that we are undertaking right indicate that there will be a specific plan coming now at the Department of Health. We are fo rward in that area. actually performing 13 000 more ultrasound tests this year-1 should say, there were 13 000 Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could more ultrasound tests done at the end of this indicate how many sonographers we might be year, that is '99-2000, than were done in '97-98. short and if that is something new. So the number of tests has gone up almost 20 percent; yet, it is one of these issues of the Mr. Chomiak: I will endeavour to provide the elasticity of the test and the waiting lists. So Member with the information concerning that despite performing 13 000 more tests, the either later today or in the next day or two. I waiting list has gone up. have it in my head, but I want to confirm it with respect to my notes. Now, I should say that with respect to those tests, that does not mean urgent or emergent Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could cases do not get the immediate or as-soon-as­ tell me how many ultrasound machines we have possible tests. That is still done, but there are in the province and whether he has any intention waiting lists for non-urgent or non-emergent of increasing those numbers. which is significant fo r people. The problem in that area appears to be a number of areas. As I say, we have allocated fu nding in this budget to, Mr. Chomiak: We will endeavour to see if we despite the increase of tests, increase even more can canvass that particular issue. tests. * (14:50) There is also a program that we will be bringing forward with respect to ultrasounds to Mrs. Driedger: I neglected to ask back on try to come to grips with the ultrasound issue. It MRis, and I would like to just ask fo r that item has been a problem that despite best efforts-it is as well, how many MRI machines we have in interesting, because the waiting list, despite Manitoba. The last I heard, there were three and doing more tests-and that often is the case in it was our intent in government to buy one for health care-the actual waiting list has gotten Brandon. I am wondering if he could just larger, and one of the issues is with respect to comment on that. July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3787

Mr. Chomiak: I will just confirm the number, Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could but I did not see any allocation within last year's indicate how long people are waiting for knee Estimates fr om the previous government that replacement surgery. there was any intention to buy another MRI for Brandon. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, it varies depending upon the surgeon and the severity of Mrs. Driedger: I am wondering if the Minister the patient, the patient's condition. The number could tell me the length of time people are of knee surgeries performed has increased 350 waiting fo r CT scans. percent from 1998-99 to '99-2000. We are in the process of developing a central waiting list for Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, cum:ntly, the patients waiting for orthopedic surgery. average wait for an elective CT scan at the Presently each of the 20 orthopedic surgeons tertiary care hospitals is eight weeks. The wait maintains a list of patients and prioritizes his or for a CT scan currently at a community hospital her patients according to a clinical assessment. in Winnipeg is seven weeks. As of this May, there were approximately, and this is one instance where there are numbers, I Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could guess because of the allocations- there are about tell me how many CT scanning machines we 1300 people on lists for orthopedic surgery. have in the province. Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if that 1300 breaks Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, will down into specifics like knee or hip or if that is endeavour to provide that information for the the overall number of people waiting fo r Member. orthopedic surgery.

Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the note seems tell me how long the waiting list is, in terms of to indicate to me, and I believe it is correct, that weeks, for bone density scans. it is orthopedic in general because of the nature of the lists, but with orthopedic surgery, we are Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, the average trying to move into a centralized list. wait for bone density in Winnipeg is 21 weeks. The bone densitometer at SBG is in need of Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I think the idea replacement. We are providing fundingat SBGH of centralizing the list for orthopedic surgery is a fo r 4000 SBGH and 4000 at Brandon. We are good idea. I think it will certainly benefit going to have fu rther testing expansion in patients. I know that when we were in Winnipeg this year fo r an additional 4000 tests, government we had kept the information all subject to change. I believe, subject to separate in terms of the number of people confirmation, if memory serves me con·ectly, we requiring knee surgery and number of people are replacing that bone density scanner at St. requiring hip surgery. I am wondering if the Boniface Hospital, and I believe, just subject to Minister would be prepared to provide me at a confirmation, that we are replacing that and later date with a breakdown of those two putting it into the clinic, I believe, but T will just numbers. confirm that for the Member. Mr. Chomiak: If it is readily available, I will attempt to provide it to the Member. Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could indicate what the waiting list had been May of Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could last year. I notice that he had the inforrnation for indicate how many patients are waiting for the other tests, and I wonder if he could indicate coronary artery surgeries or cabbages as we used with the bone density scans what that wait might to call them. have been a year ago. Mr. Chomiak: I can indicate to the Member that Mr. Chomiak: I do not have it for May of last in the seven years in which I was opposition year, Mr. Chairperson. critic, this kind of information was never 3788 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 provided to me. Never provided to me. Mr. Chomiak: No, that is categorically wrong. [interjection] No. It was simply not provided to That is out of the range. What I should try to do me by way of policy. The wait list information is try to pull the last year's ministerial briefing was simply embargoed and not provided to me, book and make a comparison between the so this is a first in this Chamber as we provide number of people that were on the list last year this information. I hope the Member appreciates at this time and this year. Now the Member that. might be comparing something with something else, and that is the problem. These numbers We do not have that information with us at were never provided. The Member might have this point. If it is available, we will endeavour to had access to them as a member of caucus. but acquire it. we were not provided with them in Opposition.

Mrs. Driedger: I thank the Minister fo r I will try to see what the situation was with providing the information to me as these lists, respect to that. In fa ct, the number of cataract the media seem to have an opportunity of surgeries that are being performed from the data finding out the information, so I certainly I have in fr ont of me is going up. It is going up appreciate the Minister providing that on a regular basis, so we will see what the information to me. I find it very helpful in reference was to the thousand. But that is not establishing, I guess, a view towards what is comparing apples to apples. I can assure the happening in the health care system. Member of that.

I am wondering if the Minister has any Mrs. Driedger: As I said, I am not sure where I figures in terms of the number of patients got my number from for a thousand. so I waiting for cataract surgeries, what the length of certainly would appreciate if the Minister has an that might be. I know that in government we ability to clarify that. I do not want to use actually did have numbers of patients, and I misinformation, and I would appreciate clari­ think the Member in opposition certainly used fication on that. those numbers. I appreciate, with our elderly population in Mr. Chomiak: I know the Government had Manitoba, I expect that we are going to see figures previously, but I do not think I had those increasing numbers of people needing cataract figures provided to me. I would ask regularly, surgery. I am wondering if the Minister has and the response I would get back from the given any consideration to, I guess, how to deal Minister is a whole bunch of figures and with that. I imagine those numbers are only numbers that were not related to the lists. It was going to continue to go up. Does he have a not provided to me. strategy in mind in terms of addressing the way to get that number down? The waiting time for cataract surgery is three months to two years depending on the Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I do. cataract surgeon. As of May this year, there were approximately 5000 people waiting for some Mrs. Driedger: I am wondering if the Minister kind of cataract surgery at the Misericordia would be prepared to share that with me. Health Centre or the other facility. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, we are Mrs. Driedger: The last numbers I recall reviewing some strategies in this regard right hearing, and I could be wrong because my now at the Department of Health with respect to memory might not be serving me properly, but I this type of surgery, as well as other areas, and thought that when we were in the government there will be announcements in due course in the waiting lists had been 1000 people. I am this regard. wondering if we have seen a dramatic increase like this only within the last year. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask the Minister about dialysis treatments. I know the number of * (15:00) treatments in the last number of years has been July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3789 going up dramatically. I know that, in some Mr. Chomiak: The figures I am looking at, instances, we are looking at a diabetic epidemic. radiation therapy for all sites is five weeks. We certainly see a challenge to the dialysis Breast is 12 and prostate 12. program. I am wondering if the Minister could indicate how many dialysis treatments are Mrs. Driedger: I wonder, and I do not know if projected for this year. the Minister has information like this, in terms of the number of patients waiting to see specialists, Mr. Chomiak: We could probably do the and I do not know if that is being tracked. The balance of the Estimates on dialysis and this Minister is indicating not. I had heard that one treatment alone. This area has been phenomenal particular neurosurgeon had a wait list of 800. I in growth fo r the past three to four years and is think it would be interesting if that kind of projected to increase dramatically. Th� current information was tracked, again because I am level of people on dialysis, from the note in front sure there are other neurosurgeons that might of me, is 605 fo r this year. have much less of a number. I would wonder, too, about neurologists' and cardiologists' Hemodialysis services are provid1�d at 12 waiting lists to see any number of these sites: Health Sciences Centre, St. B., Brandon specialists. I am wondering if there is any Regional Health Centre, Dauphin, F lin Flon, consideration by the Minister for starting to keep Morden, Pine Falls, Portage, The Pas, track of waiting lists in these areas. Thompson, Ashern, and I believe we are operating in Selkirk now. There are also plans fo r dialysis, of course, in Norway House. Some Mr. Cbomiak: As I understand it, there is a other expansions will be announced shortly, as process with respect to cardiologists. I should well, in some other areas. advise the Member that we have, as the Member knows, made a significant announcement, Mrs. Driedger: The whole issue of diabetes frankly, probably one of the bigger certainly is a challenge, and I will come back to announcements we will ever make with respect asking some questions about that program later to a cardiac program dealing with the number of on in Estimates. areas. The Member probably would have heard about a recent radio report with respect to an I am wondering if the Minister could tell me initiative or some initiatives with respect to the length of the waiting lists for breast cancer neurologists in Manitoba, and I can indicate radiotherapy and prostate cancer radiotherapy. there will be some further developments in that area. Mr. Chomiak: In front of me right now I know that, in June, the radiation therapy, wait list for Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could all disease sites was five weeks. tell me how long the waiting list is for the sleep apnea clinic. Now, I know from various discussions, because of the nature of this, that we are in a Mr. Chomiak: I do not have the specificon the unique situation, insofar as we are waiting for waiting list length. It is fairly considerable. ratification of some votes in this area. :So I have There are two sleep laboratories in Winnipeg, tended to try to stay out of this area in terms of one at Health Sciences Centre and one at St. B; discussion in any great extent while the '99-2000, 182 Manitobans, there were a ratification of those other matters are dealt with, considerable number of Manitobans, have to because of the labour implications in that regard. receive specialized treatment. The number of sleep studies are now being increased as of May Mrs. Driedger: I am wondering, though, if the of this year to 12 per week from eight per week, Minister would have the numbers for the waiting but I do not have the actual length of time in lists for breast cancer and prostate cancer front of me. I am advised that it is prioritized. radiotherapy, unless he fe els that might com­ promise the situation. * (15:10) 3790 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

Mrs. Driedger: I know that at one point it had Mrs. Driedger: Personally I support patients been two years. I do not know whether that has going south. I think to me that makes sense gone up or down. Certainly, as a challenge in when we have waiting lists like we do and trying to address this, having been a nurse in an somebody is sitting worried about having breast area that cared fo r patients that had sleep apnea, or prostate cancer. I have no issue with that it certainly is a challenge to the patient and their whatsoever. fam ilies and creates quite considerable stress, I am looking at a newspaper article from the especially because people can end up with Winnipeg Free Press, Saturday, June 24, of this hypertension and end up with stroke in situations year indicating, one of the sentences says: The of prolonged sleep apnea. So it certainly does province budgeted $1.1 million last year and $1 lead to some considerable medical problems. million this year to pay for the care. I am wondering if the Minister could I am wondering if, because it also indicates indicate to me if any patients, in order to address here, at a cost of $20,000 U.S. for each any of these waiting lists, are being sent to treatment, and if we have got close to 68 Grafton fo r any tests. Manitobans receiving treatment, I would assume that that money could be out. I am wondering if Mr. Chomiak: I am just subject to advice from that might be the case and if there is any the Department. I do not believe we send people contingency in the Budget in terms of addressing to Grafton for tests from the Department of this fu rther. Health. What we did do is we did invoke a policy, as the Member might be aware, that Mr. Chomiak: There was $1.1 million budgeted when we came into office, with respect to the last year. Halfway through the year when we waiting lists for radiation therapy treatment, we came in we put in what we called a critical determined that the levels were so high for shortages fu nd. This year's budget I think there is radiation treatment that we made a decision to a million dollars in the Budget with respect to transfer patients to the United States to receive the critical shortages fu nd. That program was their radiation therapy. directed to the cancer treatment program. I think that is what the Member is referring to. The Now, that decision obviously helped to deal billings are not all in and the billings, because of with what is a serious problem in terms of the nature of billings, it is not clear. We do have providing radiation therapy. We fe lt that we had fl exibility in there. We wanted to maintain no choice but to make that decision in the flexibility in there. interest of patient care. So as a consequence, patients who were offered the option-it is not an It gets back to a very delicate balance right easy option because you have to leave your now with respect to providing that kind of home and your loved ones to travel for a difficult treatment and the various machinations that we treatment-faced with the prospect of waiting are experiencing with respect to the finalization longer in Manitoba, the fe eling behind it, and I ofthe collective bargaining process. Obviously a know that this proposal came up in the spring of policy decision was made to b�dget m�ney to last year when members opposite were allow people to go receive a spectal and dtffe rent government, faced with the prospect of all type of service than had been present in the past. general waiting lists increasing as a consequ�nce Obviously on a policy basis we will do of these very serious prostate and breast patients everything we can to make sure that people requiring treatment, we determined if we could continue to get that treatment no matter what we take the pressure off the system, it would enable have to do, because that is basically the bottom us to provide for additional treatments. So that is line. the scenario. I am advised that since the inception of the program 55 patients have been I do appreciate the Member's commen�s approved for out-of-country referral with respect with respect to support for that program. It IS to that program. appreciated. July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3791

So with respect to the numbers, we do have * (15:20) some fu nds still available. There are still billings, arrangements that are being made. The Mr. Chomiak: Yes, we have budgeted for a Member has to appreciate there was a last year prostate cancer centre. We are working on the expenditure and a this year expenditure as well. details of the program. We have some flexibility still. Mrs. Driedger: Does that also include a prostate Mrs. Driedger: I am wondering what the cancer screening program? Minister will do when the budgeted amount is reached. Is he going to look for and find more Mr. Chomiak: Yes. I will confirm the details of money so that patients who need to have the that. I will provide the Member with subsequent treatment can still go down and have it? How information. It may not be before the Estimates does he intend to manage that? conclude, but I will provide the Member with all of that information. Mr. Chomiak: We will basically do whatever we believe is necessary in the interests of health. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask the Minister, Obviously the preferred route is to be able to we had received some information that an RFP provide the service here. We are hopeful that we has gone out to provide backup and replacement will be able to be in a situation where the service home care services in the Winnipeg region. can be provided appropriately here. Until that eventuality occurs we are prepared to b'� flexible It was issued by the Winnipeg Regional and to do what is necessary to try to provide the Health Authority. It had been issued on May 29. appropriate care for those patients in particular. I know that the Minister does have some sensitivity to private home care services. The Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could RFP was related to looking fo r backup and tell me if we are still short 10 radiation therapists replacement of home care services in the event and 7 physicists? of worker illness or other absence and to assist with fac ilitating client discharge from hospital. Mr. Chomiak: I will provide the Member with The current agreement was held by Central that information. Health Services. The WHA was looking to contract with perhaps up to two proponents to Mrs. Driedger: I would like to thank the deliver the services in the Winnipeg region. I am Minister fo r that offer. My next series of wondering if this is supported by the Minister. questions I probably cannot get into b1�cause of the ratification, but I did have a whole page fu ll. Mr. Chomiak: I remember this issue very well I guess I will have to save them. So I will defer because it arose out of a process that my questions on radiation therapy, just to add commenced in 1995 whereby backup services though that certainly we had the money in the with respect to home care was awarded to plan in order to address that. We wen: short of Central Health Care Services. As I understand it, therapists, which really did create a problem. I it is renewed on a yearly basis. understand that it is a national shortage of something like 200 across Canada.. I look Mrs. Driedger: I am wondering if the Minister fo rward to hearing what happens with the is going to continue on with this and whether ratification. I look fo rward to seeing some this is actually an increase in the number of positive things come out of it. I am a, little bit patients that are being provided services via skeptical from the rumours we hear out there. privatized home care. However, I guess all we can do really !right now is wait and see. Mr. Chomiak: As the Member knows, the services delivered by the WRHA with respect to I am wondering if the Minister coultdjust tell that, when I was queried about that by a me where we are at in terms of looking at a particular reporter two weeks ago, I looked into prostate cancer screening program and a the matter. Just generally within the matter as I comprehensive prostate cancer centre. understand it, it is a continuation of the backup 3792 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

contract provision that has been entered into on a canvassed the various facilities to make regular basis since 1995. available, I 00 beds in order to take a load off. I can indicate to the Member that not all of those Mrs. Driedger: Does the Minister have any beds were opened because of the severe nursing intention of altering that particular agreement in shortages that we were faced with. We did build any way or eliminating it in any way? in, and I believe it is $12 million year to year, hallway medicine initiative fo r all of our hallway Mr. Chomiak: Obviously the Member knows of medicine initiatives into the base of the budgets. the general intent and procedures in terms of how we approach this particular issue. My Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could general pragmatic approach to most of these indicate fo r me whether those acute care beds are issues, and we have done it in several areas, as still needed in the system. we move towards particularly diffe rent policy changes, we are basically maintaining the status Mr. Chomiak: There is no doubt, Mr. quo in a number of areas while we examine the Chairperson, that there is a need for beds. There options and services that are available to us. is also no doubt that there is a difficulty, in some cases. staffing the beds that are required. We Mrs. Driedger: Of the hundred beds that the have undertaken a review. We have asked the Minister had hoped he could open, I am WRHA to do a review and a bed map of the wondering how many of those beds were system in Winnipeg to determine the type and actually opened in hospitals. location of beds that are needed and are required in Winnipeg. We are anticipating that fo r Mr. Chomiak: This is an interesting area. I sometime in the fa ll. could not get any bed information out of the previous government for seven years. We got Mrs. Driedger: I am wondering if the Minister into huge fights in this Chamber. In fact it could tell me whether it is accurate or not to say preceded me. I can remember watching the that Manitoba has the highest number of acute former critic, Judy Wasylycia-Leis, and the care beds per capita in Canada. Member for Pembina. Don Orchard, fight this out over day after day after day in terms of Mr. Chomiak: I am not sure that that is an dealing with this particular information. This accurate statement. I am not sure, and I am going kind of information generally was not provided. by memory. Also, the staff is not sure that that is I will see what is available to see if I can provide a conclusive statement as well. it to the Member. Mrs. Driedger: I had understood, at one point. Mrs. Driedger: As this was an election promise, that that was the case, that Manitoba certainly a very specific one, I would hope that the was more generous in allocating acute care beds Minister would have some commitment to per capita than other provinces. I am wondering, providing that information. Now, somewhere I with all of the personal care home beds that are had seen, and I do not know where, so I am currently opening or have opened, whether or asking for clarification, something about $6.7 not we still need to be looking at opening more million annually for these beds being built into acute care beds in the hospital . If we were the Budget. Now, I do not know where I got that managing this in such a way that there were from. I am wondering if the Minister could enough personal care home beds and they were clarify where I might have seen that and if it is in taking the strain off the system, whether or not the Budget. we would still need to be looking at 1 00 new beds in acute care hospitals? Mr. Chomiak: I can indicate that what we did was when we announced our program on *(1 5:30) November 22 of 1999, we made available funding to open a hundred beds. It was Mr. Chomiak: This is one area that I get into something that had not been done in a long time long discussions with people on. This in this jurisdiction. We made available, and we relationship between personal care home beds July I 0, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3793 and acute care beds, because I think it misses-a I often get off onto tangents. It is not simply strict correlation between acute care beds and a correlation between personal care home beds personal care home beds is not necessarily the and acute care beds in tenns of managing patient ratio that will provide the solution to the needs and patient requirements. problem. There is no doubt that there was and is a need for personal care home beds in Manitoba. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to have the Numerous studies during the '90s were effected Member for Minnedosa ask some questions now. in order to detennine that. Most notably, the Morrow Report, I think, in '92-93, suggested a Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): I need fo r 1 600 personal care home beds by 1995. have a fe w questions around a fac ility in Souris In fa ct, in was that particular recommendation called the Victoria Park Lodge that I believe the that I believe the previous government made a Minister raised questions about in the past and I determination in its capital plan of 1995 and am sure he is fam iliar with. Can you tell me announced all those personal care home beds, what the status of Victoria Park Lodge is? which they subsequently put on hold, and then reannounced some of them several years later Mr. Chomiak: I will provide the Member with and built some. specifics of that when we next-! presume next Estimates. That was part of the reason why there was a major problem with respect to congestion and Mr. Gilleshammer: I am sorry. Just for clari­ confusion in the hallways over the past several fication, you would do that tomorrow if we meet years. But I would be very cautious about a strict tomorrow? Thank you. I would appreciate that. I correlation between just the personal care home know that the Minister has some knowledge of beds and the needs of personal care homes and Victoria Park Lodge in that he asked a series of acute care beds because it is far more-and to say questions about it in the past. I know he has if we better managed the acute care bt::ds in the correspondence from the reeve, the mayor, the system, then we have enough or things will work RHA, and a private citizen who is known to the fine. I think it is theoretically a fine solution, but, Member, who was a candidate out there. I think in practice, and the Member knows, the: Member it is an issue that needs to have some closure put worked in the health care sector, it does not to it. always work. There is no question that the better a bed management-it is clearly one of the points Can I ask next about the template on the of our hallway medicine initiatives. The minimal standards for acute care hospitals? I correlation between straight personal care home have a draft revision from January 25 and the beds and acute care beds does not necessarily tenns of reference that were finalized on solve the problem. There is a hug1� gap in November 1, 1999. Can the Minister indicate between. I can tell the Member that that is part where this process is at? of our discussions with other jurisdictions and the fe deral government in tenns of a solution to Mr. Chomiak: As I explained to the Member's the problem. colleague the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach ), as I understand it, the process So, as regards the initiatives in hallway commenced in August of last year in tenns of medicine, and the Member can agree or disagree this process being put in place. It was largely with our policy or what we did, half of the driven by the RHAs with respect to review of the initiatives in hallway medicine were community­ minimum standards, largely based from what I based. Half of the expenditures went towards understand on the fact that there was concern community-based programs. We are trying to be that certain hospital facilities in rural Manitoba very pragmatic and cautious as we approach the were forced on various occasions to cover the H bed situation, which is one of the reasons why on the highway because they could not the bed map issue has been so important and we necessarily guarantee a particular level or a are doing that to detenninethe kind and the need particular type of service, and this was entered for beds and for other support services related to into by the RHAs. So what has happened at this that. point is the template has now come together I 3794 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000 think largely on the same basis as the draft. It Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, there is a has been forwarded to us. We are going to take revised copy that has now come in. In the the template and farm it out now back. Department, our intention is to take the report and to fa rm it out to the health authorities and There are three areas, and I referred to them regions fo r their input and their advice and the to the Member fo r Russell (Mr. Derkach) and I advice of anyone in the public. know the Member was listening diligently, but I will just highlight what I said to the Member for Again, it is as was the case with the other Russell when I last dealt with this issue. There two reports. They were commenced prior to our were three areas of activity that were entered assuming office. We have come into office, we into by the previous administration. The first have received these reports, and now we are was lab consolidation, and the lab consolidation asking for advice and comments fr om the wider process was entered into, and a report came to community without drawing any conclusions our attention upon assuming office. We have from those particular recommendations. distributed that report out to the broader community fo r general comments and advice. Mr. Gilleshammer: Would the Minister be prepared to share a copy with members of the Opposition of the revised template that he now The second issue was with respect to has? emergency services as well. There were two or three reports done by the previous administration *(1 5:40) with respect to emergency services. As well, a report came to our attention again when we Mr. Chomiak: Yes, just subject to any assumed the office of government, and it made a administrative details that I am not aware of. I number of recommendations. We fa rmed out have no problem in doing that. those recommendations and we are still reviewing a number of those recommendations, Mr. Gilleshammer: The revised template that but we did act upon a number of the he is going to farm out will be a very public recommendations because of the nature of process, I gather, and will go to not only RHAs emergency services and the requirement for but municipal councils, reeves, councillors, upgraded emergency services. In fact, we communities to be part of this process. Is that doubled the amount of funding to emergency correct? services outside of Winnipeg. That is the biggest increase I think in memory to emergency Mr. Chomiak: I would presume that. The services with that report. general policy that we have adopted is not to deep-six reports and not to hide reports. With respect to the template, the template report will be farmed out fo r advice and That is the general policy that we have comment and direction, and we will be looking adopted when the reports come in. We did that for the advice and comment of people in the with the lab consolidation report, and we did that community with respect to those particular with the emergency services report, and I have recommendations and those particular issues that no reason to believe that we would do otherwise were prepared by the RHAs. with the template report.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Can you indicate a time Mr. Gilleshammer: Can the Minister give me frame? Communities out there are in a state of additional detail on what it is he is farming out? rather nervous anticipation about when this I presume that you have taken the template and process is going to kick in. applied it to each regional health authority and the facilities within that RHA. Is that what the Is it your belief that this template would be Minister is farming out, or can he tell me if it is available to RHA boards, municipal councils, simply a revised copy of what the draft revision and the general public before the end of summer, of January 25 was? by September I, for instance? July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3795

Mr. Chomiak: Something in that time: range, I they had a request for a meeting, and had not suspect. I certainly understand the anxiety, the heard from the Minister or his office, and I know concern out there in the communities, so I the town of Rivers, the mayor there, and a group respect that position, and I think our intention that has been formed called the Rivers and Area would be to do that sooner rather than later. Health Action group are anxious to have a meeting with the Minister. I would ask if he can Mr. Gilleshammer: The regional health indicate whether his staff have set this up for the authorities now have a budget figure for the near future. current year that they are in, yet I think they are still in the process of finalizing their budgets. I Mr. Chomiak: I do not know whether or not the would presume, maybe the Minister could staff has set it up in the near future. The basic confirm, that there were increases in those RHA programming with respect to my visiting and budgets to take into account settlements with meeting with a number of groups at this point is various health care providers, and to contingent on a couple of issues: The question of accommodate deficits from previous years. Is the House and when the House will prorogue, that correct? and some federal-provincial meetings that I have to be a part of that are making August a Mr. Chomiak: Yes, generally, the policy that somewhat difficultto structure at this point. So I we adopted, coming halfway into a fiscal year, am in a bit of a difficult position in definitively and relying on information dated that was booking August because of those issues that are available to us, was to generally try to meet out of my control. those needs and expectations, and to try to deal with all of those issues within base budget where Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, perhaps when we get we could. back together to talk about Victoria Park Lodge, the Minister could also indicate his availability Mr. Gilleshammer: There are a number of in July and August. The Estimates process will communities who have requested an opportunity be wrapping up, I am sure, this week, and I to meet with the Minister. Is he going to be able wondered if he understood that one of the to accommodate them in the near futun:? members on this side is prepared to pair him to make him available for responsibilities away Mr. Chomiak: What was that? I am sorry. from the House and would try in every way to accommodate the Minister to get out there and Mr. Gilleshammer: I will repeat the question. meet with Manitobans in the Westman region. There are a number of communities who have requested an opportunity to meet directly, face to Mr. Chomiak: I try to get out and meet, as I face, with the Minister. I am wondering if he has indicated to the Member, with as many indicated to them when those meetings can take individuals as I think any Minister of Health has, place. or perhaps more, and I will continue to do that. I outlined fo r the Member the difficulties with Mr. Chomiak: I am sure the Member can respect to there are any number of communities appreciate that the number of communities he that members on that side and this side of House referred to probably numbers in the dozens with would like me to go meet with tomorrow, that it respect to meetings, and I am endeavouring to would be very useful. meet with as many groups and individuals as at all possible. I believe I have meetings set up There are some that I am seeing on various with several groups; I will be setting up shortly contingencies. I will endeavour to do the best I with several groups from the southwest can to meet with as many people as possible. Manitoba area. Mr. Gilleshammer: Perhaps, and I will not Mr. Gilleshammer: appreciate that, and I speak for them, they would be prepared to come appreciate how valuable the Minister's time is, to the Minister's office in the near future. If that and how difficult it is to meet with everyone. would be easier for him, would he be amenable The Reeve from the R.M. of Daly had indicated to meeting with them there? 3796 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

Mr. Chomiak: Just in practice, I actually prefer Mr. Gilleshammer: I certainly do not expect to get out to meet with individuals within their the Minister to meet with all members of the own communities. That is my preferred. If the public, but, as the Minister knows, there are Member only knew how many swings I have organizations within communities that represent done and how many swings I have had to cancel the will of the people, and I would expect him to in the last little while with respect to visits. I meet with the community leaders on issues of mean, the Member can appreciate that, and those health care and would appreciate him doing so will be taken care of. as early as possible.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I should have recalled *(1 5:50) the Member's visit to Minnedosa a few years ago. I know he was very interested in coming As I have indicated, we would pair the out at that time, and I am glad he has not Minister at any time to go out to meet regarding changed. I know the people of Rivers will look his responsibilities and make his efforts out there fo rward to having that meeting with him. I will as easy as possible for him. pass on the Member's remarks to them, and I know they will look fo rward to seeing him out Another question I wanted to ask is to do there. with appointments to the regional health authorities. I gather the Minister is fo llowing the The other day in the House, in response to a same process as previous where individuals question on June 28, the Minister said he would within communities are appointed to serve on be prepared to discuss the issue of the template the health authorities' board rather than having with the Mayor of Boissevain. I am wondering if them put there through election. Could he the Minister has picked up the phone or found confirm that? time to meet or talk to the Mayor of Boissevain. Mr . , Acting Chairperson, in the Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated to the Member Chair previously, I am intending to discuss the whole issue of the template in terms of farming it out, Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, as I indicated and having comments and advice is something to the Member fo r Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), that we are going to engage in shortly. the process generally in place at this point is the process that we have continued to fo llow. Mr. Gilleshammer: So in terms of his commitment in the House two weeks ago, I Mr. Gilleshammer: One of the previous gather he has still not met that but will do so guidelines was to appoint people from the shortly, and we can pass that on to interested catchment area of all of the fa cilities and to, I members of the public. suppose, not appoint people who had a vested interest in that their livelihood came from Mr. Chomiak: I would not want the Member to working fo r the RHA or a neighbouring RHA. Is literally take to members of the public the fact that practice still being continued? that I will be meeting with every member of the public, as much as I would like to, across the Mr. Chomiak: Mr Chairperson, if memory province of Manitoba. I would not want him to serves me correctly with respect to the issue of literally interpret that to be the case with respect the catchment areas, I believe we are fo llowing to his comments. the same process as was the previous case. With respect to the issue of individuals who perhaps As I indicated to the Member, we are not work or obtain their livelihood in that particular going to deep-six or avoid the process that was region we have indicated in a policy sense that started by members opposite with respect to the we are not adhering to that particular policy. template, and we will endeavour to seek advice from Manitobans with respect to the template Mr. Gilleshammer: You are not changing the process. policy? July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3797

Mr. Chomiak: We are changing that particular Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I would urge the policy, though I do not believe, and I could be Minister to give that some serious recon­ corrected with respect to appointments to boards, sideration. I think there are other ways under whether or not we have made any appointments which people who derive their income directly with regard to that changed policy. from an RHA board can make a valuable contribution, in terms of advisory boards or any Mr. Gilleshammer: So, given the Minister's type of structure that the Minister might want to comments, that would mean that doctors, nurses, set up within the legislation. But to have them employees of the regional health authority may participate directly in board decisions, I think, be or are now eligible to be appointed to those would put them in conflict more oftenthan not. boards. I would urge him to reconsider that when he Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, that is makes his appointments, because I believe there correct. are a lot of capable people out there who would primarily represent the views of the community. Mr. Gilleshammer: Does the Minister not see You can seek out whatever specific talents you that there is a conflict in that individuals could might want in terms of putting people on the be responsible fo r governance decisions while board without putting employees directly on the they are employees of that board? I see nothing board. I know that you can go through wrong with having advisory boards with health government and find other examples where that care practitioners from the region having an exists, but I think that, in terms of the opportunity to input some advice to the board, communities and the way the RHAs have been but what the Minister is saying is that he is developing, you might be wise to take a very prepared to put employees on the board which close look at that. have a direct responsibility to make governance decisions, and I am wondering if the Minister Mr. Chomiak: I thank the Member for his would not see that as perhaps troublesome in the considered advice on this. future. Mr. Gilleshammer: In an earlier answer, the Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I believe Minister indicated that he had made the original manifestation and, if memory serves appointments for the catchment area of all the me correctly, the original recommendations and facilities. I think that he may be in error, if that is manifestations of the northern and rural task what he said. He is shaking his head. Can you fo rce that looked at the regional governance had clarify that for me? recommended that employees be allowed to sit Mr. Chomiak: I indicated in my response that on the various bodies, firstly, and secondly, I we did not change the previous policy of believe that conflict-of-interest policies that appointments with the catchment areas. If already prevailed fo r a variety of areas on memory serves me correctly, we have not made specificgovernance decisions would apply. all the appointments with respect to catchment areas. I think that is the distinction. Mr. Gilleshammer: Can the Minister confirm Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the reality of the then that some of these appointme:nts have situation out there now is that you have certain already been made to RHAs? communities with facilities in them who feel that they have been disenfranchised. I use the Mr. Chomiak: I will attempt to confirm that, example of the town of Rivers and the R.M. of but if memory serves me correctly, I do not Daly where a previous board member, who believe that policy change saw light when we served on the Marquette Regional Health made the recent rounds of appointments to the Authority, was replaced. It ends up that a various RHAs, which was based on th(� previous community like Minnedosa has three timeline. I stand to be corrected, but I do not representatives on the RHA board and the town believe so. of Rivers has none. Am I given to understand 3798 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000 that the Minister will make fu rther appointments general. Is the Member saying a letter has gone to remedy that situation? out from general regional health authorities to various areas indicating not to admit to a Mr. Chomiak: I thank the Member fo r raising Brandon hospital, is that what the Member is that issue, and we are looking at that issue. saying?

Mr. Gilleshammer: In looking at that specific Mr. Gilleshammer: issue, can the Minister make a commitment that This was an issue that was in the media I believe in May and June. Whether he will put somebody on the regional Marquette I board that indeed does reside in the town of it was by letter or press release, can tell you the fe eling of constituents in the surrounding areas Rivers or the nearby municipality, or is he was that preference was given to cases in the city saying that this will not happen? of Brandon. and communities like Wawanesa and Carberry should send their patients to Mr. Chomiak: I am saying to the Member that Winnipeg because they could not be we are aware of that issue and attempting to accommodated in Brandon. resolve that issue.

* (16:00) My understanding of the regional health authority concept is that we want to develop the Mr. Gilleshammer: The town of Erickson site in Brandon as a regional centre to accept recently was without doctors fo r a two-week cases that hospitals and doctors and nurses period, something that had never happened predetermine should go to the nearest acute care before. I would bring this to the Minister's hospital that can handle them. attention, that this is the closest acute care facility fo r the national park which, in the tourist I am just wondering if the Minister is aware season, and I know the Chairman can attest to of that, or is this something that is new to him? this, might have upwards of 20 000 people in the park on a given summer's day, plus it serves a number of the First Nations reserves in that area Mr. Chomiak: I had a long discussion about and a numberof other communities. this issue in general with the Member for Russell who talked about significant policy changes that Can the Minister indicate how this could he thought might have been in effect, and I happen? inquired with respect to those particular issues. I am still doing more inquiries. Mr. Chomiak: I believe the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) raised this issue as well during his I have yet to ascertain any policy change discourse, and I said I would be getting back to directly. With respect to the issue of Brandon him with additional information. and the surrounding areas and their access to the acute care fac ility or the tertiary, well, the acute Mr. Gilleshammer: I look forward to that care fac ility in Brandon, I will endeavour to find information from the Minister. A recent letter in out as well and do some inquiries and the Brandon Sun references the fact that patients background fo r the Member. are being turned away from the regional health authority in Brandon. A letter had gone out to Mr. Gilleshammer: I thank the Minister fo r that other RHAs, and this is at a time when the undertaking. There was another letter to the Brandon Regional Authority is attempting to editor which seemed to indicate, in the mind of encourage nearby municipalities to assist with the writer at least, that the Government had their fundraising to meet some of their directed facilities to release patients earlier than fundraising needs. Is the Minister aware of that was previously the case to the point where situation, and has it been remedied? physiotherapy was not available fo r things like a broken hip and that the cost of some of the Mr. Chomiak: I had a discussion with the physiotherapy and other costs were now being Member for Russell regarding this issue in borneby the patient and the patient's fam ily. July 10, 2000 LEGISLATliVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3799

Can the Minister indicate whether he is overall funding system. That is one of the areas, familiar with any cases like that, wheth•er there is and we have had active discussions with the a policy change or a directive for hospitals to federal government and with the other provinces release people back into their communities and with respect to how we deal with these issues. back into home quicker than was prevlously the case as is being asserted by this particular letter? One of the reasons in our hallway medicine initiative that half of the resources we put into a Mr. Chomiak: I am not aware of any policy hallway medicine initiative was directed towards change from the Department of Health with the community to try to provide resources in the respect to this. community that were provided in the hospital so that, when a sick person does receive service in a Mr. Gilleshammer: Would the Minister think hospital, there is a commensurate service that is that perhaps some of the funding policies that offered in the community. Now that is a long­ have been put into place would lead fi1cilities to term and significant situation to overcome as we release people earlier than was normally the case move towards a different approach to the overa11 in previous years? health care system.

Mr. Chomiak: I am not sure specifically what The criticism has always been in the past the Member is referring to generally, but we that we have to move towards a more have generally increased funding across the community-based system, provide services board and across the province. outside of the acute care sector in the com­ munity. To a greater or lesser degree, various Mr. Gilleshammer: We11, this letter writer jurisdictions have responded in a more positive references, again, the Brandon Health Centre and or negative fashion in this regard. what is ca11ed the Assiniboine Centre in Brandon, where physiotherapy is provided. This * (16:10) person was fr om a community in th1! Dauphin region, and the assumption here is to save money Again, preparing a budget six months into a and to make room for other patients who might budgetary year, one of the conditions we looked have to be located in the hospital in a place other at was to what extent we could put resources into than a patient's room, that there was a new way the community that would take pressures off of of doing things, which was sending people home and provide for service in the community. That so that people could be accommodated in rooms. is why there was a significant increase in home The Minister is saying then that he has no care this year and as a result of our hallway knowledge of this, and in fact, nothing has medicine initiative. That is why programs such changed? as PACT were announced, put in place, and not put an emphasis only on the acute care sector. Mr. Chomiak: From time to time, with respect to the demands in the system and the patient Right across the board, when I look at health loads, there are movements of patients to and care, that is a need, and it certainly is a direction from hospitals and hospital facilities. We are that we have to proceed in. There will be encountering a significant problem, and I have initiatives that will be incorporated in this referred to this generally during the course of the regard, some of which are included in this Estimates debate, right across the board. One of budget, that deal with significant benefits that the difficultieswith the way we have (�volved the are provided in the community, but it is not just medicare system is that one is pe:rmitted to an-I was going to use the word "interesting"­ receive services and a variety of services while interesting question, it is a very real and pressing in an acute care facility, and then when one is question that when someone presents at a out of the acute care facility, to a lesser extent hospital and they have a symptom, there was a those services are provided outside. That has time in the acute care sector where they would been the difficulty of the change in the system have stayed in the hospital, say, three weeks. over the past decade and the difficulty with the Now they present at a hospital, and they are in way we deal with the overall medicare and the and out much faster. The commensurate services 3800 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 that are offered may have not kept pace. The inordinate amount of time. more than I would commensurate services that are offered or have liked to have spent, with the federal required by that patient may have not kept pace government trying to hash through these issues or not existed in the community, whereas they as we move towards some kind of a new funding were represented in the hospital prior to that arrangement which I am hopeful we can achieve where the individual required those services. with all of the potential. Perhaps, without being overly optimistic, one would hope, although one There has not been a policy change from the cannot guarantee. that whatever arrangement Department of Health with respect to that comes about, we could somehow deal with this overall, except that one of the overall directions issue. and goals is to provide more community-based service and take into account the needs and the As all health care has evolved in the past requirements of patients and of people in the decade with more of an emphasis on acute care community. This is a significant goal that we than emphasis on the community, how we can have to strive to work towards over the term of provide those community resources and have the the next-and when I say "we," I do not mean fu nding to do it when we are fa ced with "us" as the Government of Manitoba, but I mean maintaining the acute care and a burgeoning anyone that is in the management of health care community. in the province of Manitoba. It is a real dilemma and a problem. The It is one of the reasons why, in our Member fo r Minnedosa, as the former Minister discussions with the fe deral government, we of Finance, knows exactly what I am talking have been very, very suggestive of the fe deral about and how difficult it is to come to grips in government becoming involved in a financial those areas. In fact, the dilemma is the reduced way on the community and on the primary care fu nding from the fe deral government just side so that we can maintain our existing acute backfills and provides the existing services but care system and that the funding model that is does not evolve the system and does not move going to come into place will take into account the system fo rward along the lines that the the need to expand resources and services in the Member for Minnedosa is suggesting through community and to provide those services. It has his question. It is a serious difficulty that we been wrapped up in our discussions with them. It face. It is something that we have spent a lot of is a recognition of the deficienciesthat exist, that time on, dealing with the federal government in are pre-existing, that were existing, that continue this regard. to exist within the health care system. Mr. Gilleshammer: Would the Minister consent I can remember long discussions with the to take a very simple question on the Pan Am fo rmer, former, former, that is the Honourable surplus in this venue, just fo r information? I Jim McCrae. This was one of his favourite areas understand there is a Pan Am surplus that the and tangents that he used to go off on, about the Minister of Sport would be looking after. Is there gap in the ambulance service, that medicare does a process by which Manitoba communities that not cover ambulance services. He used to insist were involved in hosting can make submissions that this was an area that just was not funded by to participate in that surplus and how it is medicare and why would anyone make demands eventually taken care of? to finance under the ambulance system. But, then, if you look at the evolving health care Mr. Chomiak: The Member is correct. There IS system where people are transported more Pan Am surplus. Many communities have frequently and, in some cases, longer distances, already contacted the Department of Sport with there is a gap that is there that is not covered fo r respect to requests. There has not yet been a under the existing arrangement. determination as to the final disposition of those fu nds. As I said to the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) and the Member fo r Russell Mr. Gilleshammer: I thank the Minister of (Mr. Derkach), it is why we have spent an Sport for that answer. Has a template been put in July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3801 place to deal with that surplus, or are you recess? [A greed] We will meet back in five encouraging communities to be in contact with minutes. you over this? Th e Committee recessed at 4:21 p.m. Mr. Chomiak: Many communities have already contacted. The need is great but the a.mount-I am trying to think of an analogy-is not sufficient to probably-[interjection} Something like that, The Committee resumed at 4:29p.m. yes. It is an interesting policy question to determine how that fu nding should be utilized, Mr . Chairperson in the Chair and we are still discussing it at the policy level. Mr. Chairperson: Committee, please come to Mr. Gilleshammer: Is the Minister prepared to order. make Manitobans aware that there is a pool of money that could be used for a community Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has places-type program that all Manitobans who previously offered to give me a copy of the Bell­ presumably were part and parcel of providing Wade Report. I wonder if I could ask for that. that funding to the Pan Am might be aware of [interjection] The Bell-Wade Report. You and participate in? I am just looking after the actually suggested a few times that I should read best interests of the Minister, that he dol:s not get it. blamed fo r doing this secretly and people do not know about it. Is the Minister prepared to put out Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, in fact, I would a press release or some public announcement to give the Member my copy, which I carried with make Manitobans aware of it? me until today when I removed it from my files of things I was carrying with me. But I will ask Mr. Chomiak: I thank the Member for those the staff if they would not mind photocopying a suggestions. There have been press releases copy ofBell-Wade to provide to the Member. indicating that there is surplus monies available. * (16:30) Mr. Gilleshammer: I think the Minister has been here long enough to know that I am asking Mrs. Driedger: I thank the Minister for that. I is he prepared to go one step further and make am wondering if he could tell me with the people aware that there will be a process growing seniors population, has he requested the involved. development of a seniors health stategy?

Mr. Chomiak: I thank the Member for those Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, in terms of suggestions. where the Department of Health is going and in terms of the recognition of the demographics * (16:20) that we are facing, in terms of needs development, I am not sure if necessarily Mr. Gilleshammer: And I thank the Minister designating a specific seniors strategy is actually for his responses. I know that he has learned a the way to encapsulate what in fact we have to lot here in the last decade. I thank him also for do as a Department of Health. Given the looking into a special case that I brought up in demographic reality and given where we are Question Period. I have indicated to him that I going in trying to develop a needs-based would rarely, rarely do that, but I thank him for approach to health care across the spectrum, I taking a special look at that case. Thank you. think that the issue of seniors' health naturally will gravitate in towards that. Mr. Chomiak: Perhaps a five-minute: break at this point might be appropriate. When one gets into it, it is an extremely complex area. We know, for example, that the The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Struthers): Is it average age of individuals who are placed in the will of the Committee to take a five-minute personal care homes has gone up demogra- 3802 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000 phically quite dramatically in the past decade or based approach that we are trying to institute so, which means there are more seniors living across the entire health care system. longer years outside of any kind of institutionalization, which therefore means that Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, certainly fr om there is a required need fo r expanded home care the treatment of illness, what the Minister services which has happened obviously for the indicated sounds like there is an approach that is past decade. touching on a number of areas. I am wondering if in looking at seniors' health there is also a With respect to specific illnesses as they component in what he is looking at in tenns of relate, clearly, for example, if I can use the promoting healthy lifestyle in seniors and diet, word-I was going to use the word "explosion." exercise, socialization. Is he looking at illness Explosion is the wrong word, but the dramatic prevention, health promotion, looking at increase in cancer, fo r example. If one were to population health indicators in terms of trying to look at the increase in cancer, it is a natural encourage seniors to have a more healthy reflection of aging that cancer rates will go up. lifestyle? As we live longer, it is very clear that cancer rates will go up because of one's tendency to Mr. Chomiak: I think yes to all of that. to the develop a particular type of illness, cancer being Member. All of those issues are being one that increases as age increases. The effect of approached. It is an interesting discussion various strategies related to seniors is therefore insofar as, of course. we have a Healthy Child reflected in that regard. So there are a number of Initative. and the interesting discussion is the initiatives across the area in a number of ways other in a majority of-I will say this and I am not dealing with the demographic shift, the saying this scientifically, but I think the majority demographic changes that are proceeding. of Manitobans do not use the health care system until they are after 55 generally. Certainly. the I think it is interesting. I was just handed a increase and the preponderance increases as one note talking about Aboriginal health, women's goes on. It is interesting whether or not that health, PCH, home care, cancer, cardiac and would warrant a specific seniors health strategy. Pharmacare. All have significant components say, modelled along the lines of the child health that deal with seniors. I could add to that risk strategy. management as one. I could add to that the issue of vaccinations. I mean, we are increasing our My tendency would be to say that generally vaccinations of seniors dramatically. In fact, our agree with what the Member is raising. emphasis is on people over 65 years of age, et Generally, most of these issues are approached cetera. [interjection] Mental health, oh, that is a on a straight population needs benefit across the very good point, also raised. spectrum, but it is an interesting approach to determine whether or not there would be a Mental health issues, boy, oh, boy, talk specific wrapped-up-in-one kind of policy as a about an area that is seeing-now it is interesting sort of overall seniors health strategy. as I say. whether or not we are seeing a radical increase similar to a Healthy Child Strategy. I think it in, now I am speaking personally here, whether would be difficult to do that because of the we are seeing a dramatic increase in mental regional and the clinical nature and the health problems amongst seniors or whether in breakdown of the way the administrative fa ct we are diagnosing it more, if it is a structures work in this province, but it is an reflection of a different emphasis in society or in interesting observation. fact if it is a combination of both. Mrs. Driedger: Perhaps not unlike addressing But that is another significant area that the issues of disabled people, just a thought in initiatives are in place and will be in place to terms of making sure there is a comprehensive, deal with that particular issue. So I would co-ordinated, integrated approach, because if we suggest that the issue dealing with seniors per se do, as I understand, have the second eldest or is a larger part of a demographic and a needs- oldest population in Canada, it is going to create July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3803 some significant and interesting challenges in Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, it just does not the next 10 years. So a thought anyway . seem to me to be, if the Member wants to spend a lot of time debating the merits or the demerits The Minister, I am sure, is very aware of my of that particular press release or other initiatives strong interest in children's issues. When I was passed by the other government, I mean we can in the community, I was quite aware of the Post! do that, but I am not sure if that will change report and the number of recommendations that anyone's viewpoints that were determined at that he had made. Then, when I got into politics and time and continue to be determined. heard actually fr om the Minister, when he was in opposition, making some comments that the I am going by memory but always the lead Postl report was not one that was being minister in terms of the Healthy Child is the significantly addressed, I tried to find more Minister of Family Services, and I can provide information on it and found a June 3, 1998, responses to the Member's inquiry. The usual update. Of the 116 recommendations that were practice is to bring the lead minister in here and made in the Postl report, it had indicated that 90 do that. I am prepared to provide specific of the recommendations were implemented or responses not today but to the Member with implemented and ongoing, 12 were in process, 9 respect to the Healthy Child. I think that is were referred to a specific department, 2 were probably the practice we follow. We may as well under consideration and 3 had no action. In fact continue to fo llow that practice, unless the there was quite a lengthy report on the status of Member-if the Member wants to provide a list all of those recommendations. I gues.s, for my of questions on the Healthy Child, for example, own clarification, I am wondering why the if there is not an opportunity to canvass that Minister was, in opposition, so discouraged, from the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale), when in fact, from what I have been able to find I will try to get those responses back to the out, a lot of these recommendations were being Member. addressed. Mrs. Driedger: I am wondering, I understand that there are five cabinet members that oversee * (16:40) the Healthy Child Initiative, and I assumed­ maybe I should not have-I wonder if the Mr. Chomiak: I am not going to re-de:bate those Minister could clarify for me whether he is one issues with the Member. of the committee members of the cabinet ministers that oversee the Healthy Child Initiative. Mrs. Driedger: Well, I have not had the debate, so I cannot really very well get into a re-debate Mr. Chomiak: Yes. on it, but it sounds like a lot of the Post! recommendations, in fact almost all of them, Mrs. Driedger: I wonder then if the Minister probably 98 percent, were being addressed or could tell me how often that particular completely addressed. So I am not sure what all committee meets. the criticism was about it or about our government not doing anything in terms of Mr. Chomiak: Just met today. addressing all the issues that Dr. Post! had recommended. Mrs. Driedger: Besides the meeting today, I am wondering if the Minister could indicate, over But I will leave it if the Minister does not the last six months, how often it has met. want to get into that, but I would like to go into the area of the Healthy Child Initiative:. In one of Mr. Chomiak: On many occasions. the news releases from September, there was an indication that the NDP were going to hire Mrs. Driedger: It was interesting, in Justice nurses for school health programs. I am Estimates, it had sounded like the answers being wondering if the Minister could give me an given in that committee indicated that this update on the progress in that area. particular cabinet committee had not met very 3804 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 often. In fact, the Justice Minister could not even know the exact framework. As I recall from the indicate for me once that the Committee had way Estimates work, generally the lead minister met. Now the Health Minister is telling me that on that kind of issue would respond accordingly. they have met a number of times. I guess I am But I did indicate to the Member that I would somewhat confused in terms of who to believe. provide her with responses to her questions, if Could the Minister tell me, because Health plays she did not get an opportunity to ask that. I do a huge part, I am sure, in looking at a lot of not know why the Member is dancing around initiatives around developing healthy children, I and indicating in her preamble one issue and am wondering if the issue of hiring nurses for then ending up with another issue. I said the schools health programs has come under Committee has met on many occasions. I discussion at that committee level. indicated that it had met today. I indicated that I was not going to provide the Member with Mr. Chomiak: As this is a committee of specific notes and references from the meeting cabinet, I am not sure if I want to go down the of that committee. I said that we would make road of discussing what takes place in cabinet information available from either the lead and what, by virtue of extension, takes place in minister or, if the Member wanted to provide me cabinet committees. with the questions in that regard, I would endeavour to find out the responses to those Mrs. Driedger: When we had been in questions for the Member. government, we had a committee that oversaw the Children and Youth Secretariat. That Mrs. Driedger: I would be interested in particular committee had a very definite role, knowing a little bit more about the frequency of had a very definite meeting time and had a very the meetings, the policy direction that is being definite agenda of what it was hoping to achieve. set by that committee, because I understand I believe it was called the Human Resources certainly what the Minister would be able to Committee of Cabinet, and there were seven or make public, would certainly be appreciated. eight ministers on it. Just fr om the Estimates in Justice, which was only a few weeks ago, there was no indication We were kept well-informed about the that this committee had met, so I have a concern initiatives and progress that particular committee that the Children and Youth Secretariat was was making. When we are looking at initiatives dismantled. It was reformulated. I understand, that will impact on children and some of the even from just being around various people innovations that are possible to see come from within government, it seems to have lost its such a committee, I am wondering of the emphasis and focus. It does not have the same Minister could be a little bit more definitive fo r dynamic position it had before, and I have some me in terms of the expectations this committee real concern that some of those programs we are has regarding how often it will meet. not hearing very much. I just have some concern that we could see children's programming fa lling Mr. Chomiak: In the course of the Member's through the cracks now, and I would hate to see question, the Member floated around a number something like that happen. of issues related to when a committee meets, what the agenda is. The Member specifically asked me if I would tell her what is on the I think that particular program, the Children agenda of a cabinet committee, and my response and Youth Secretariat, was beginning to make to the Member was I was not going to reveal some significant inroads. It was bringing cabinet information to the Member with respect different departments together to work together. to the agenda of the cabinet committee. For me, out in the community, I was excited about it because, prior to having the Children The Member ended her question by and Youth Secretariat, when groups in the somehow saying, well, the number of times the community wanted to relate to government, we Committee met. I indicated when we started this had to go to various diffe rent departments to find discussion that the lead minister on this was the out the information. Once the Children and Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale). I do not Youth Secretariat was in place, we were able, July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3805 with one phone call or one meeting, to have all particular initiatives. So if she will just forward the information that we needed. those particular requests to me, or if she wants to do it verbally now, that is fine. We will take it as * (16:50) notice and then endeavour to answer.

So, for us in the community, it was a bonus Mrs. Driedger: Actually, my preference would and having been involved with it prior to coming be to put it in writing so that I can be sure I do into government, because of my interest in child not miss anything in my request. I would prostitution, we were starting to see some really certainly look forward to the response. good things happen in that area. Now we do not seem to hear very much. I do not know the I would like to move on now to the frequency of the meetings or wht�ther any Women's Health Strategy. I know that prior to emphasis is being placed on where all of the the election we had been looking at a women's children's programming is going and what stage health strategy. A women's health advisory policy development is at, and what stage committee had been set up, and the Women's programming is at. Health unit had been set up within . The intent was to set up a particular I did want to get into the Estimates in women's health strategy. I wonder if the Minister Family Services, but unfortunately, they have could indicate for me the status of each of these. been at the same time as Health and I have missed them totally. I certainly will be fo llowing up with the Minister of Family Services on a few Mr. Chomiak: We are getting into specifics issues, because I have spent considerable years with respect to program lines. I will endeavour, working on the issue of child prostitution, and I if the Member would give me a second, to do have a big interest in that area. I a:tso have a determine those responses. serious interest in a lot of children's health issues, so I would look forward, if the Minister is As I understand it, the Branch has been set willing to provide me with more information up; a director has been hired; and we are about the Healthy Child Initiative, to receiving working with the community with respect to the it. program of developments.

Mr. Chomiak: As indicated, for the third time, I Mrs. Driedger: I am wondering, would the am prepared to provide that information to the Minister be prepared for a few questions-! do Member. I did not have the same view of the not have many on this particular area-or would Healthy Child Initiative undertaken by the he prefer to wait until this comes up in the previous government, and I do not want to go appropriate section of Estimates? down that road, but I did not have the same view, having followed the file generally for about five years. That was not my view in the Mr. Chomiak: We may as well try now. community with respect to the way that the system and the programs were working. I did Mrs. Driedger: I know that the women's health indicate that I am only trying to fo llow the past policy was going to develop, with assistance procedures that I am aware of in terms of how from the Women's Directorate, a discussion this works, and I indicated to the Member, now paper to guide a consultation process, and for the fourth time, that I am quite prepared to subsequently the policy development. I am provide her with that information. wondering if the discussion paper was developed, and if consultations have been held In fact, in the past, when I was critic, the and with whom. Minister would often say, well, you have to ask that appropriate minister, and shut it down at that. I did not say that. I said I would provide the Mr. Chomiak: I am advised that the Branch is Member with information with respect to those still working on that. 3806 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I 0, 2000

Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could tell me if there was a fu nd to promote women's indicate fo r me the progress that has been made health research and projects established. on it in terms of how far it has come in its development. Mr. Chomiak: I wonder if the Member could be more specific. Mr. Chomiak: I can indicate that we are actively involved in some policy initiatives in Mrs. Driedger: It was just a general question. I this area that we are attempting to resolve as am wondering, in setting up the Women's Health soon as possible. Strategy, if either at the time it was being set up, or since the Minister has been the Minister of Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister tell me Health, whether there has been any fu nding whether or not this screening program for allocated to looking at specifically health cervical cancer will be affiliated with the breast research around women's issues. cancer screening program?

Mr. Chomiak: I understand we are working Mr. Chomiak: There have been discussions with the Women's Directorate and with the with respect to that. Prairie Women's Health Centre of Excellence in looking at initiatives to incorporate and expand Mrs. Driedger: Has there been any funding upon some analysis to better understand and allocated in this budget towards the cervical address issues relating to gender in the health cancer screening program? I understand that the programs and policies. development may take some time, that it will not readily happen overnight, but I am wondering if Mrs. Driedger: Other than that, would the any finances have been allocated in this budget Minister be prepared, or would the Minister towards the developmental phase of this. consider looking at providing any funding to promote women's health research? Mr. Chomiak: It is probably correct to say that the development of the program is not precluded Mr. Chomiak: I am advised that we do provide by lack of funding. funding to the Prairie Women's Research Centre. Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister confirm for Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask the Minister me then-I do not want to make an assumption­ if he could indicate for me what that money is there is no money in the budget for the spent on if he has that information. development but that staff in Manitoba Health will be working on policy? Mr. Chomiak: I am advised that it deals with the gender-based analysis to better understand * {17:00) and address gender in health programs and policies. Mr. Chomiak: If the policy considerations could be solved with respect to the cervical Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister has the cancer program tomorrow, the cervical cancer information of the amount of funding that they program would have the resources to be up and receive. functioning. Subject to that, it is not a question of resources, as I understand it, being made Mr. Chomiak: I will take that question as available. notice. Mrs. Driedger: I am wondering if the Minister Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister tell me if the could put a time line on this in terms of when he screening program for cervical cancer has been would like to see this program up and running. established? Mr. Chomiak: I would like to see this program Mr. Chomiak: That process is still being up and running several years ago. I would like to worked on. have seen this program up and running today, July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3807 frankly. I think it would be of S(�rvice to priority in terms of what he wants to see everybody in the province. achieved as the Minister of Health.

Mrs. Driedger: With the Minister feeling that Mr. Chomiak: I always find it difficult to way, I am wondering what kind of focus this is answer that question, both philosophically and getting then. Is it being treated as a priority and otherwise, because, literally, when you are moving along fairly rapidly so that we can talking about people's health, every issue is a expect to see the program initiated within this high priority. It is very difficultto determine that particular budget? this is higher priority than this other high priority, particularly when we are dealing with Mr. Chomiak: It is in the best interests of all of particular segments of the population and us to get this program up and running. I always particular areas of concerns. fe lt that it should have taken place in the past. I am endeavouring, as Minister, to do everything I So, I have actually avoided, personally, can in my power to get it up and running as soon using the word priority on all kinds of things. I as possible. just do that out of principle. I might have fallen into that trap on a few occasions, but I have Mrs. Driedger: Prior to the election, we had tried, just in terms of my own approach to issues, supported, in principle, a proposal submitted by not to, because, frankly, when it comes down to the Mature Women's Health Program. It had it, everything is a priority. Then it is a question been put fo rth as a number one priori:ty by the of how do you rate one priority vis-a-vis another Women's Health Program team at the WHA. priority.

I am wondering if the Minister has met with Issues of women's health and the various Terry lbbitt and Doctor Boroditsky. I know that, aspects and review of how one deals with at one point, soon after the election, they had women's health is an important issue. We try to been trying to seek a meeting, and I wonder if deal with issues as best we can through the Minister had an opportunity to meet with allocations both through the Budget and in terms them and to discuss the program. of attention and direction to try to deal with as many policy areas as possible. Mr. Chomiak: I am not sure if the program, as outlined by the Member, is entirely accurate in We are trying to move forward in a whole terms of how the Member characterizes the variety of areas. Some are moving faster. Some prioritization and the commitment with respect are moving slower. Some we have wanted to to that particular program. There an! ongoing move faster on and we are not able to. Some we discussions with regard to that program. are moving faster than we probably thought we should. Obviously it is an area of importance. Mrs. Driedger: Could the Minister indicate whether or not there is any funding in this Mrs. Driedger: I guess my particular interest in budget for that particular program? that may be partly because I am a woman but also being a nurse. I really have found that not as Mr. Chomiak: I do not think there was a much attention has been given to women's health funding commitment in last year's budget for this over many decades. It is something where I think program, because the Member indicated in it is certainly time that more emphasis was principle that they were in favour of it. There placed in addressing the issues of women's were a number of mixed messages

The other area I am sure the Minister has health unit at the Department of Health that has serious concern in, as do I, is around the issue of done yeoman service, just terrific service, in Aboriginal health. Having been a student nurse terms of putting together a whole variety and a who spent some time on a reserve during my whole range of services and needs that are senior year, I certainly saw the challenges that required. are faced in that area. I am wondering if the Minister could give me an update in terms of Mr . Cris Aglugub, Acting Chairperson, in the whether or not we have an Aboriginal health Chair strategy in place. Last year, we had been at the beginning of addressing that, and I am Like so many areas of Health, if we could wondering if that has proceeded at all. find 100 nurses and if we could find 50 doctors that we could relocate, if we could deal with Mr. Chomiak: I appreciate the comments of the some transportation issues and some housing Member with respect to the women's health issues, if we could deal with major infrastructure issues. I tend to agree with her in terms of issues, our task would be made much, much emphasis and need. easier. As a government, we are, in a whole variety of areas, attempting to approach a lot of Aboriginal health could probably take the these areas, and a lot of the infrastructure bulk of the rest of the Estimates time. To travel building, and a lot of the changes. up to many of the communities and to see the state of Aboriginal health-and I have heard it One of the fr ustrations, and I am not suggested to me on many occasions, if these meaning this to be a political criticism, but when health conditions prevailed in the urban centre, we were on the other side of the House, and we you would have a significant outcry beyond any would ask ministers here about Aboriginal proportion and beyond anything that has ever health, the general response was that is a fe deral happened in health care. government responsibility. The result was that it got bogged down in fe deral-provincial Now, I hope the Member will appreciate that jurisdictional questions. I can say in Estimates what I am saying is I would almost like to deal that I have been quoted publicly on many with this issue on a non-partisan basis, like we occasions saying we want to throw away the rule deal with issues of mental health and like we book. I am-I should not say I; it is we-we are deal with some otherissues because it is of such tempting to forge forward on the Aboriginal grave concern, and in some ways there is such a issue by doing a number of things differently. As deficit. The Member asks for an overall a start, we have been working quite closely with Aboriginal strategy, and my modus operandi the federal government on a number of with respect to Aboriginal issues has been Aboriginal issues to put in place a different generally to forge forward, just forge fo rward, communication strategy and a diffe rent-I do not because there are so many deficit areas that you mean public communication strategy, but I mean cannot go wrong. Basically, you will make some a strategy of talking with each other and not mistakes but you cannot do worse by just paying as much attention to whether this is your moving forward. We could probably move job, and this is our job, this is not your job, this forward for a decade in this province and still is your job. I am fullyaware that proceeding on not achieve the kind of health determinants and that kind of a basis opens us up to a number of health indicators in Aboriginal health that we difficulties in the future on constitutional would like. grounds and jurisdictional grounds.

* (17:10) But, frankly, it is our view that the deficit is so extreme in so many areas that we have to So the general modus operandi for myself forge ahead on a number of fronts. For example, has been to forge forward on a whole number of something very unusual happened, I believe it fronts on Aboriginal health. That is not to say was February, where the department of Indian that there is not a very extensive and very well­ and Northern Affairs-what is it called now? The functioning, I am very pleased, Aboriginal federal department met with the provincial July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3809 department, and we just sat down for a day-long the whole day in terms of Estimates. We have seminar as to how we were going to tried to recognize some of the needs. communicate and how we were going to move the whole agenda forward without getting caught Having said that as a preamble, I can up in the issues of "this is your jurisdktion, and indicate that there are a number of areas we are you are not going to move, so we are not going moving forward in specifically. Clearly the to move, this is our jurisdiction," et cc!tera. We diabetes and dialysis epidemic that is sweeping have made some progress in that regard. the nation and more significantly sweeping our Aboriginal population is in the forefront of a I have in front of me a whole series of number of our efforts. While we like to talk briefing notes about all of the initiativf�S dealing about dialysis and the expansion of dialysis, and with Aboriginal health. I can outline some of we rightly recognize we have done so much of a them, but I just want to give the Member a better job of providing dialysis, when you really flavour as to part of the way we are approaching look at it, I do not want this to be misinterpreted, this. I have referenced, on many occasions but dialysis is a failure, right? Dialysis is the end during the course of these Estimates, the fact that stage of a disease that has to be addressed at the we are in ongoing discussions with the federal front end. We are going to be doing additional government with respect to trying to develop a and unique dialysis solutions in Manitoba. We new cost-sharing model, or a new approach to are going to be doing some things that have not financing health care. I can assure the: Member been tried before with respect to dialysis. that Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and, to a Whether or not we succeed, I am hopeful we certain extent, Quebec, and other jurisdictions will succeed. with significant, and of course the three! northern territories, have prioritized, have: placed Having said that, the whole diabetes strategy Aboriginal funding and Aboriginal issues at the that was put together the last few years in the top of the federal-provincial agenda in terms of province we are trying to move forward on. The when and if we acquire some kind of a new first phase with respect to the announcement of financing approach, there will be an actual the diabetes strategy and the approach to recognition of the needs, and we all know them, diabetes in terms of clinical guidelines and of the tremendous needs in deficit, in terms of practice standards has been released across the Aboriginal health. To that end, I have been very province. We are working diligently to proceed encouraged, quite frankly, that my fe deral in that area and to release other areas of the colleague, Allan Rock, has recognized that on overall diabetes strategy and to launch that numerous occasions and represf:nts and particular initiative. understands, I think, that issue. We are also attempting to talk with and Whether or not we can move: forward resolve some long-standing issues dealing with because it is caught so much up in tlh.e history the Aboriginal population. Those include a and the structure and the jurisdiction of this whole range of initiatives and a whole range of fe deral state is a question. I prefer to be hopeful areas, some of which were included under in this area and forge forward. previous government strategies and some of which we will be expanding and providing The Member indicates that she was additional services for. I am thinking of the employed as one of those people that worked up Aboriginal Health and Wellness Centre in there. I mean, I think those are the re:al heroes. Winnipeg as well. But further than that, we are People who do that do incredibly, incredibly working with Sandy Bay, Island Lake, southern good work under some very incredibly trying chiefs, Swampy Cree Tribal Council, Norway conditions. House, MKO, Nelson House and Norway House to develop new and innovative health care If I were to outline to the Mf�mber the treatment and related health issues. number of meetings that I have had with Indian and northern communities, again I would spend * (17:20) 3810 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000

In addition, in the city of Winnipeg, which impacted by what I saw when I was there. One has an incredibly large, growing Aboriginal cannot argue at all that some real emphasis has population, there are a number of initiatives that to be put in the development of promotion of cross other boundaries that we have to be Aboriginal health. involved in. As a tangential issue I should tell you that the prevention and treatment of AIDS When I was in The Pas visiting a hospital for example and STDs is also a serious dilemma there a year or so ago, I had an opportunity to and an issue that we are not moving as fa st as I talk to nurses who indicated to me that a lot of would like on in this regard but that we are patients who came into their emergency were taking action to deal with. Aboriginal people who came in for a dressing change because there was not a home care When the Member references Aboriginal program on reserves. health issues, I am not trying to deal with time. I am actually try to give a bit of an overview in I am wondering if the Minister has had an terms of how we are approaching this issue. opportunity to discuss with the fe deral There are any number of areas where we are government and push for a home care program trying to move forward on specific programming being developed on reserves and whether the areas. The overall goal, obviously, is to increase fe deral government is willing to do the job that the health determinants and the status of they should be doing in financingthat. Aboriginal people for their benefit, obviously, and for the benefitof all of us in society. Mr. Chomiak: The Member is correct. In fact I can tell the Member that we have spent We are doing a fa ir amount in terms of the considerable time on that specific issue. The treatment side. We are expanding on the Member is accurate. The Member is correct. treatment side, but it is sadly an area that we have to deal with and we have to expand. But we I do not want to go into too much detail have to continue to put emphasis on the other because we are fo llowing a couple of different side where we are supposed to be taking the tracks with respect to negotiations with the Department of Health in general anyway, the federal government on issues of this kind, and whole issue of population health and needs base they are leading diffe rent ways, but it has been and determinants and the like. That is a part of a identified clearly as a significant, and the larger picture. Member rightly states, detriment to First Nations people, and it has been a part of numerous and In terms of some of the nitty-gritty issues varied discussions at a very senior level and at such as northern training, for example, we will all levels with the fe deral government. It is be taking some initiatives in terms of northern clearly an issue, well identifiedas important. training. The Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) indicated when we were having our discussion Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could here the other day the need for expanded training tell me if he maintains the position that it is the of Aboriginal people in all areas of health care fiduciary duty of the federal government to for a variety of reasons. I can indicate to the provide medical services to First Nations people Member that we are going to be undertaking on reserves? initiatives in that area right across the spectrum of the various health care provider professions. Mr. Chomiak: That certainly is a viewpoint that is offered and certainly put forward by many I think I will stop at this point and determine people in the health care system. other specifics the Member may wish to inquire. Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister could Mrs. Driedger: Just for the clarification of the tell me whether he agrees with it. Minister, I did not work on a reserve. I had actually spent time as a student nurse, doing my Mr. Cbomiak: I am trying not to be difficult. I senior practicum. So I did not have a huge am trying, actually, to stay away, in terms of amount of time spent there but certainly was public pronouncements, from necessarily July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3811 hardened and fast decisions and observations. I doctors, they have been providing the nurses, on am simply suggesting, as the Minister of Health, reserve. Then transport off reserve, et cetera, is that we want to work with whomever we can to generally provided by the federal government, improve the standard and quality of life for but then it gets very tricky. I am not trying to be Aboriginal people, people from First Nations. evasive as well. Clearly, there is an overriding consideration and a long-standing legal principle that the federal * (17:30) government has a fiduciary duty to people of First Nation descent. Part of the reason, we are doing various negotiations at various levels with various Mrs. Driedger: I do not mean to be picky about parties, on a variety of issues, and I am trying to this, but it is because I am fairly new. Within the move the agenda forward in terms of just two years I have been here, I have not been providing service and just getting service to involved in a lot of discussions around people who need service. That generally has Aboriginal health. I am sincerely asking these been the principle we have tried to fo llow. questions in order to find out whether or not my "Overlooking," well, that is the wrong word, but understanding is accurate, because I understood trying to avoid jurisdictional questions and that costs related to health care on reserves, and trying to be more pragmatic in our approach to the Minister could correct me, was the these issues. responsibility of the federal government. I do not know if the provincial governm�mts have Mrs. Driedger: Again, I am not here to pick a contributed to that over the years. That is what I fight. I am here to try to understand this because, am trying to clarify. Is there already precedence when it came to the crisis situation of farmers in set in terms of provincial fu nding for health care southwestern Manitoba, the Government has on reserves, or is it strictly an expectation, determined that there is a federal jurisdiction. policy, law, whatever, that it is federal funding? Basically the provincial government here is I amju st looking for information. holding federal government's fe et to the fire on that one in terms of crisis fu nding. Mr. Chorniak: Generally, the Member is correct, unless one looks at the 1964 agreements Is the Minister, in Health, going to adhere to of which there is litigation flowing out of them. those same principles that what has been known It is really complex. For me to wrap my head to be federal jurisdiction, whether it is in health around it, every time I wrap my head around it, care or farming or other areas, will that same and I am legally trained, I fo rget it within half an principle be withheld throughout all depart­ hour of my three-hour meeting because it is ments? incredibly complicated. In general, we provide the doctors on reserve; the fe deral government provides the nurses. Mr. Chomiak: I wish it were that clear. It is not that clear. So my response is yes and no. On Generally the position, I think, of the First some levels in some areas, we are very strongly Nations community is that the responsibility for adhering to a particular jurisdictional question. health services is a responsibility of the On other areas, we are trying to be innovative Government of Canada. Then there are and see if there are trade-offs or other areas that breakdowns and variations as to what the issues can move fo rward having regard to the responsibility of the provincial govc!rnment is sort of mutual jurisdiction and matters at hand. with respect to on reserve and off reserve. Then What I am trying to do as Health Minister, what you get into the complicated factor of nearby we are trying to do as a Health Department, is locals that are not on reserve, of which there are move the agenda forward with respect to issues on-reserve people living, and it gets to be a very of providing health care. It is not as simple as convoluted and difficult process. The general simply determining jurisdictional questions in legal position is that it is a fiduciary this instance, because when someone flies down, responsibility of the federal government. The say, to Winnipeg to receive treatment that is not process has been we have been providing the available, we end up paying for the cost of the 3812 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2000 treatment here. So if one wants to look at dollars As I indicated previously during the course and cents, it is sort of a different issue. of these Estimates, we did increase funding to personal care homes in this year's budget Clearly, the bottom line is the federal significantly, but, more importantly, we did government has to be involved. There has to be provide increased fu nding to pre-existing fe deral government support and fe deral personal care homes for various equipment and government resources. What I am saying is supplies as well as staffing. If I stand corrected, I maybe there is a diffe rent way that we can take believe that is the first actual increase along advantage of that without getting locked in some those regards since about 1992 or '93, or jurisdictional questions to move the agenda certainly in the mid-'90s. fo rward on this very complex issue. It is also the subject of significant negotiations, as we speak, Mrs. Driedger: In a newspaper article back in with relation to fe deral-provincial cost sharing. 1998, the Minister was quoted as saying he There are ramifications and negotiating positions would like to see a better staff-patient ratio. Is that I actually am trying to avoid necessarily that still something the Minister is moving expressing publicly so that it does not preclude toward? negotiations in doing certain things in certain areas. Mr. Cbomiak: The issue of staffing levels at Mrs. Driedger: I am wondering if the Minister personal care homes has been something that we would be prepared to provide me with the have addressed in opposition fo r some time, and memorandum of understanding that was signed one of the reasons for our increased fu nding was in regard to the Garden Hill agreement for the to make a start to address that issue that has not dialysis program or dialysis machine. They talk kept pace with the need. That was a recognition about maybe an entire hospital to one northern in this year's budget. There is a recognition in reserve. I am wondering if the Minister would be this year's budget for increased fu nding in that able to provide me with a copy of that regard-again the first time in my experience, and memorandum of understanding. that is some time-from the Department of Health. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair If the Member were to look back over Mr. Cbomiak: Yes, we can undertake to Estimates, the Member would see there has been provide the Member with a copy of that. increased funding to personal care homes relatively consistently, not great but relatively Mrs. Driedger: I thank the Minister for that. I consistently since the early to mid-'90s. That would now like to move onto just a few generally has gone to expand the capacity of questions, particularly I think the Minister's personal care homes, et cetera, and we actually stand over the last few years in regard to earmarked fu nding to specific areas to deal with regulations in personal care homes. I would just that. like to hear his current stance, I guess, in terms of what he fe els or the direction he is going to There is no doubt that the increased demand take in terms of adequately fu nding personal and the increased acuity of care in personal care care homes. I am aware from reading some homes necessitates a need fo r increased newspaper articles over the last fe w years that he resources to provide that care. I say that well did not fe el that personal care homes were aware of the fa ct that we are fac ing a huge adequately funded. I am wondering if he is going human resource deficit in the health care field to be addressing that. across the board. That is a major difficulty that we face in that regard. Having said that, it is Mr. Cbomiak: The Member started out talking clear that it is an area of need and an area that about regulations and then ended up on fu nding. requires attention and will over the course of the I do not know if there are a couple of different mandate be accorded the attention that we think questions in there or not. is necessary. July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3813

Mrs. Driedger: I guess I would like to ask the personal care homes that we did not see years Minister that as we see improving numbers of ago. That is a function of a movement away nursing staff in the workforce, what is his from patients being in acute care settings and strategy, how does he plan to manag�! moving patients moving to acute care settings. forward so that there is a change in the staff­ patient ratio? Is there going to be involvement So issues like psychogeriatric or issues from an outside consultant, or are we going to dealing with dementia are paramount in terms of look at the people involved in the front lines how we approach the personal care home sector, having a say? the patient mix, the staff mix, the actual physical layout, and all the matters relating to dealing How does he plan to move ahead with this with patients. Compounded and layered on top to address the issue of what that staff-patient of that is the whole issue of complexity of needs ratio should be? in terms of if there is a chronic need or chronic care and how one relates to chronic care and * (17:40) provide the services in that regard. Layered on top of that is the issue of some prognostication Mr. Chomiak: That is a complex issue, as if that in fact our demand for personal care homes there are any issues that are not complex in because of the demographics and because of the Health. As the Member is probably aware, there utilization may actually, some predictors are that was a piloting of a particular information data we will have less need for personal care homes system at personal care homes with respect to in the future and in fa ct we should be building determining the ratios and the data associated up capacity in other areas to provide health care with that. Actually it is quite a fascinating versus some others that say the need will still be exercise. It is a movement towards a better there. management tool but, at the same time, towards a better recognition of commonality of particular So the issue is complex and compounded. types of care and needs across the system which We have met with both nurses, health care aides actually has the potential to be expanded into a and related professionals in the personal care quite interesting variation which is utilized in home field to receive their input and advice. In some jurisdictions that see standard criteria fact we will probably see a process for that applied to various patients, standard actually actually being put in place in a more systematic types of care plan applied to particular way so that it does not get lost in terms of individuals across the spectrum of health care. making determinations as to how we are going to deal with these issues. On top of that is the But having said that, the MDS system has whole question of issues of equity and pay scale. been piloted. We will probably see some form of an application with respect to utilization in Frankly, one has to approach that. I mean, Manitoba. There are federal funds involved in that is a problem in this area. The typical case this and various ramifications of that. That scenario that we are hearing right now is certainly is an interesting area. It is very clear someone gets trained in the community as a too with respect to the issue of personal care health care aide, moves to a personal care home homes vis-a-vis, for example, acute care and then moves to an acute care facility. Again it facilities, there is a tendency to unde:rscore the is that curious disincentive in our whole value of personal care homes. It is evident from medicare system where the wages and the my discussions with front line nurses that there emphasis is in the very top higher end of the is not a lot of attractiveness and not a lot of system, and at the lower end, as you move, say, encouragement often provided to personnel to through personal care homes and down at the make a career, for example, of the personal care community, you get paid less to provide those home sector. services. It is a disincentive to actually be involved in working in the community. That is Contingent with that, though, are the related not something we can change overnight. In fact issues of the fact that we are seeing complex that is not something we probably can change. needs of patients that require treatment in Again, that is wrapped up in some discussions 3814 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 1 0, 2000 with the fe deral government in terms of how we An Honourable Member: You are tempted? deal with issues of equity and pay scales. Mr. Chomiak: No, I am not even tempted I should indicate that within this particular because I actually-it is the ebb and flow. I could budget, and within this particular first few suggest that if members-! know there are lots months of a government, we have taken a and lots of members here in the House, but if number of initiatives to deal with this issue. First there were certain members of Member's caucus thing, we brought in The Protection of Persons that were in attendance, I could already see us in Care Act before this legislature, which is going off on a tangent. Fortunately, they are being debated as we speak, sort of, as the occupied on other committees, so I will not be. process works its way through. Secondly, we have actually increased fu nding to personal care * (17:50) homes in this budget, and, more specifically, we have increased funding fo r staffing and supplies The response to that question is not simple. I and service supplies and equipment, which is have said publicly that the SmartHealth initiative something that has not happened in a long time, has put us probably four or five years behind on specifically to pre-existing personal care homes. information technology in this province. There is Thirdly, we have, and it fits up into the overall a gap that has to be made up. Given the complexity of this, already provided to all experience with SmartHealth, there is a need to personal care homes in the province, and all be vigilant in terms of how we approach this regions, the first phase of the standards process particular issue. Suffice to say that it has been that was put in place following the 1995 identified as one of the key issues to be recommendations of the Committee, and the addressed by Health. Actually it is a key issue various inquests that occurred, personal care that has to be addressed across the whole system homes. So the regulations, those particular of government, in some ways, but Health in standards are out in the community for fe edback particular, because of the incredible demand and and for implementation in a context of providing the incredible need. You can tell already because us with advice as to how workable it is. of the notes that are flying back and forth here Fourthly, we have the issue of the MDS, the with respect to dealing with this initiative. whole information system, which we are hoping to implement, but which is pending some If we attempted to realistically come up to developments. Finally, there are some specific what would be termed the industry norm in this allocations in this particular budget to take into particular area, it would probably cost the account particular needs and requirements of the province in this budgetary year alone several personal care homes sector that will be hundred millions of dollars. It would cost the communicated at some point. needs and the demands in the area of hundreds of millions of dollars. What we have to do is to Mrs. Driedger: I want to thank the Minister for attempt to address the issue in a sense that that information. With some degree of provides us with the best utilization of-in fact, I trepidation, I will ask my next question. What is just was indicated that the current estimate of the the Minister planning to replace SmartHealth need in health care alone is something like $300 with so that we can improve the accountability million in terms of information technology in the within our health care system? health care field.

Mr. Chomiak: I have said for some time, If members doubt that, just take a look appreciate the discourse and discussion we are across the health care system literally from north having. I have always preferred, when I was to south, fr om east to west in every single area. critic, to have a discussion and discourse rather In virtually no areas are we up to what would be than a rhetorical battle back and forth. I know industry norm in terms of the information we always fa ll into it. I like not doing that if we technology. It was identified in the Webster do not have to do that, but we do that. So, I am report most recently as one of the highest not going to fall into that with respect to this priorities required. So having said that in terms question. of introduction to my discussions about July 10, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3815

SmartHealth, we are grappling at Health and we amount of resources provided to the City of have not finalized yet the prioritized list of Winnipeg ambulance service. We doubled the information needs and technology that we are rural, but we almost doubled-! think it is $2.1 going to approach given the limited budgeted million, if memory serves me correctly-to the capacity, knowing fu ll well that any initiatives City of Winnipeg for their ambulance service. we undertake will only cover a very small portion of the requirements that are necessary in The complicated factor is that Health does health care. not negotiate with the City of Winnipeg for the ambulance service. The ambulance service by Mrs. Driedger: I appreciate the challenges that legislation is operated by the Regional Health government faces in addressing the technology Authority. So what we did is we funded the issue within health care. It certainly is going to Regional Health Authority to that amount, and be huge, an incredible one, a very costly one, then what we did is that we said to the City of and does take a lot of study and thought in terms Winnipeg-the City of Winnipeg had come of making the decisions. forward last spring prior to us being government, saying: We want you to take over into facility I guess, we have time for one final question transport, Province. We want you to take over today, and it is on a new area altogether. It is the Main Street Project, Province, and we want from a newspaper article of June 24 that talks you to also fund a couple other services. So we about ambulance crisis, and it is about the city put together a package of money to the WRHA ambulances. There is one particular paragraph to negotiate with the City. I do not think the that I just needed some clarification on. It is negotiations are entirely complete yet, and again quoted here: Provincial funding to the health I am not trying to be difficult, but the authority fo r programs that include helping negotiations are still between the City and the drunks on the street will be redirected to fundthe WRHA. new ambulances, said Councillor Garth Steek. The previous paragraph to that indicated the At this point, the arrangement still is that we Doer government's May 10 budget included have almost doubled the funding to the City of $750,000 fo r the City's ambulance service, Winnipeg as a package to WRHA. The WRHA which was only enough to put one more is negotiating with the City of Winnipeg for the ambulance on the road. Then it goes on to say, allocation of those funds. The bottom line is provincial fu nding to the health authority for the there will be considerable additional resources programs that include helping drunks on the available to the City of Winnipeg to the street will be redirected to fund the new ambulance services. Whether the City of ambulances. I wonder if the Minister could just Winnipeg puts new ambulances on the road or explain what exactly this article meant? whether they divert existing resources-

Mr. Chomiak: The issue here is that Winnipeg Mr. Chairperson: The hour being 6 p.m., has fe lt fo r some time that they have been under­ committee rise. funded from the Province with respect to emergency services. The initial thinking when Please call the Speaker. we came into office was that discussions had basically stalled and that the City was so IN SESSION fr ustrated with the discussions that we were going to go nowhere. What we did is we said, let Mr. Speaker: The hour being 6 p.m., this House us talk about this, and, as a consequence, we is adjourned and stands adjourned until 1 :30 ended up in this budget almost doubling the p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday). LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, July 10, 2000

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS First Nations Casinos Loewen; Ashton 3714 Praznik; Ashton Presenting Reports by Standing and Special 3715 Committees Labour Relations Act Schuler; Barrett 3716 Committee of Supply Santos 3711 Urban Planning Policy Gerrard; Friesen; Sale 3717 Tabling of Reports Youth Unemployment Rate 2000-2001 Revenue Estimates Supplementary Allan; Barrett 3718 Information for Legislative Review for the Department of Finance School Divisions J. Smith; Caldwell 3718 Selinger 371 1

2000-2001 Supplementary Information for Overland Flooding Legislative Review for Community Support Helwer; Ashton 3719 Programs Chomiak 3711 Members' Statements

2000-2001 Supplementary Information for Pipes and Drums of Manitoba Legislative Review Departmental Expenditure Korzeniowski 3720 Estimates for Sport Chomiak 3 711 Strawberry Production Faurschou 3720 2000-200 I Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Conservation Bill and Michael Bilous 3721 Lathlin 371 1 Rondeau

2000-2001 Departmental Expenditure Estimates Vincent Massey Collegiate Graduation for the Manitoba Status of Women J. Smith 3721 McGifford 371 1 Sustainable Development Strategy S. Smith 3721 Oral Questions ORDERS OF THE DAY Governmentof Manitoba Mitchelson; Doer 371 1 Committee of Supply 3712 (Concurrent Sections)

Premier of Manitoba Family Services and Housing 3722 Mitchelson; Doer 3712 Healthy Child Initiative 3724 Conservation 3728 Agricultural Disaster Assistance Education and Training 3752 Penner; Wowchuk 3713 Health 3783