Seanad Éireann

Vol. 202 Tuesday, No. 1 20 April 2010

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD ÉIREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Tuesday, 20 April 2010.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1 Order of Business …………………………………2 Allocation of Time: Motion ……………………………25 Defamation Act 2009 (Press Council) Order 2010: Motion …………………25 Inland Fisheries Bill 2009: Second Stage …………………………25 Adjournment Matters: Dental Services ………………………………47 TaxCode…………………………………49 Library Services ………………………………52 SEANAD ÉIREANN

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL OFFICIAL REPORT

Imleabhar 202 Volume 202

Dé Máirt, 20 Aibreán 2010. Tuesday, 20 April 2010.

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Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 2.30 p.m.

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Paidir.

Prayer.

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Business of Seanad. An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator Paudie Coffey that, on the motion for the Adjournment of the House today, he proposes to raise the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Health and Children, in the interests of dental health, to outline the provisions and resources that will be made available under the dental treatment services scheme to prevent tooth decay.

I have also received notice from Senator Paul Bradford of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to comment on the negative impact on Irish agriculture of the proposed carbon tax levy.

I have also received notice from Senator Pearse Doherty of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to make funding available to facilitate the opening of a new library in Gaoth Dobhair, County Donegal to replace one damaged by floods.

I have also received notice from Senator Cecilia Keaveney of the following matter:

1 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

[An Cathaoirleach.]

The need for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to clarify the reasons for the significant increase in the number of people within the legal profession participating in the free legal aid scheme as outlined in the most recent report.

I have also received notice from Senator Fidelma Healy Eames of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Health and Children, in the light of concerns of patients with osteoporosis, to clarify the health evidence supporting the use of the generic drug Alend- ronate by the HSE instead of Fosamax, as the new generic substitute drug to treat osteoporosis.

I have also received notice from Senator Jerry Buttimer of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs to make a statement on the future of the national drugs strategy and comment on the number of vacancies in his Department.

I regard the matters raised by the Senators as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment. I have selected the matters raised by Senators Coffey, Bradford and Doherty and they will be taken at the conclusion of business. The other Senators may give notice on another day of the matters they wish to raise.

Order of Business. Senator Donie Cassidy: It is nice to acknowledge the presence of former Member John Horgan in the Visitors Gallery. The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re allocation of time on the Order of Business, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Busi- ness; No. 2, motion re formal recognition of the Press Council, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; and No. 3, Inland Fisheries Bill 2009 — Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 2 and adjourn at 7 p.m., if not previously concluded, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed seven minutes and on which Senators may share time, by agreement of the House.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald: In recent days more and more facts are emerging about the way the banks have been run. We need a debate in the House on the issue. I, therefore, propose an amendment to the Order of Business that the Minister for Finance come to the House today to update us on banking policy. The ordinary person is absolutely furious about the information which is emerging and the Government which is speaking out of both sides of its mouth cannot have it every way. There is the Government guarantee for the banks and the Government have control, yet when it comes to topping up pension funds and lavish expenses, we do not see control being exerted by the Government. This raises the most serious issues at a time when, like me, other Senators are meeting people who have lost their jobs and medical cards and are facing huge difficulties. This inequality is fuelling serious unrest. For that reason, we should have a debate on banking policy today. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that this House have a discussion on banking, in particular in relation to the new information that has become available in regard to pension top-ups and lavish expenditure.

Senator Joe O’Toole: I support the points made by Senator Fitzgerald. It surely is the case that there are specific issues which are driving ordinary people berserk, including the Fingleton million and the €1 million plus bonus paid to the chief executive officer of Bank of Ireland. I want to put on the record of this House and people should know that the Government has explained this by saying it was contractually bound to pay this money, which I understand. I 2 Order of 20 April 2010. Business. must, however, put on record that the chief executive officer of every semi-State body in this country had similar contractual rights to a bonus and, as far as I am aware, every one of them voluntarily gave up their right to that bonus this year. As far as I am aware, that is what has happened in all of the semi-State bodies in respect of similar contractual obligations. I believe moral pressure should be applied to have this matter dealt with. The Government is correct. I have no doubt there was in place a contractual obligation. However, that does not mean the Government should not make perfectly clear where it stands on the matter so that ordinary people can share that view. It is important to recognise that the Financial Services Authority in the UK has commenced an investigation into Goldman Sachs, a bank described by the British Prime Minister as being morally bankrupt. This is a bank which, for instance, has in recent times put together products for ordinary investors, products made up of investments, information on which was that they would fail. Having induced ordinary innocents to invest in those products, Goldman Sachs, as a bank, then took a futurist bet on that failure. In other words, it was winning both ways. The British Government has decided it will have no more to do with that bank. I would like a guarantee from the Irish Government, which is the reason I support Senator Fitzgerald today, that we will not be tainted by any involvement or investment in any products, services or consultancies provided by Goldman Sachs.

Senator Eoghan Harris: Hear, hear.

Senator Joe O’Toole: We need to consider this. The German Government financial regulation authority has also begun an investigation of the same issue. It appears to me that this is a classical example of the two-handed approach coming from some of the banks who simply played ordinary punters like violins and took money from them time and again. I would like if a Member of Government could come to the House and convince us we will not be involved in anything to do with Goldman Sachs and that Irish industry or development will not be in any way connected with it.

Senator Alex White: Given there is no public element to the inquiries into the banking system which we are told are taking place, perhaps a progress report in terms of what precisely is happening in those examinations could be made to the Houses so that we can get some sense or insight into what if anything is happening. My colleagues are correct that there is a need for public information so that there can be proper public debate on these issues. We simply do not have that information. I heard last week an independent economist, Dr. Alan Barrett of the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, say, when asked his view in terms of the com- parative approach of allowing Anglo Irish Bank to be wound down or for the bailout to continue, that he could not give an answer in that regard because he did not have available to him the basic information that would allow him to give an intelligent response or any response. When I hear Members the Government parties say that this is the only way forward and is the correct thing to do, I cannot assess that. I and no other member of the public can assess whether what we are being told is simply a spin because this is what the Government is doing and is the course on which it has set itself. We should be able to assess and understand independently what precisely is going on so that we can compare the two different scenarios. It is taxpayers’ money and the public interests that are being dealt with here and as such we should be given more information, even basic information, on what is going on. We have no information in this regard. I ask the Leader to arrange at some point in the not too distant future a debate on universal health insurance, arising from the very interesting conference which took place last week. There was a lone voice at the conference, namely, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney. While she represents Government policy, I wonder whether 3 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

[Senator Alex White.] members of Fianna Fáil are as happy as they appeared to have been in past for the Minister to be determining the policy not just of the Government but also of Fianna Fáil on health insurance and universal health insurance generally. The Labour Party was the first party to call for universal health insurance. Fine Gael, in a very robust fashion, has also done so and I welcome that. Other bodies have also called for it. Can we have a debate in the House on universal health insurance? We should have the Minister in the House to have the sort of honest debate she said she wants to have. We will have an honest debate in this House. If she could come here, we could do that.

Senator Dan Boyle: This House should have a debate as soon as possible on the current banking situation, on which we need an update. Some of the statements made on the Order of Business are untrue. We will have a banking inquiry which will have substantial public elements to it. Two reports are being prepared, one of which is being compiled by the governor of the Central Bank who went on the record at the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service as saying he favours an inquiry along the lines of that being carried out in the United States. It is largely public and has some private elements which is necessary to get crucial commercial information. That is the type of inquiry we will have and it will have substantial Oireachtas involvement. On the payments made to people in some financial institutions, there is a universal feeling that such payments are unwarranted and a mechanism should be found to retract some of the money, if possible through the taxation system. The sizes of the pension pots are of such a scale that we can and should tax pension pots of a certain size and apply a punitive rate when they are being unnecessarily and artificially added to. That would get a signal across as quickly as possible. On universal health insurance, a report is being produced under the chairmanship of Professor Frances Ruane on the future funding of the health service, which I understand will be published in the next few weeks and will form the basis of a very good debate in this House. I agree with Senator Alex White on the necessity for such a debate. Given the presence of former Senator Dr. John Horgan in the Gallery and the motion before the House on formal recognition of the Press Council, we need a debate soon on media standards in this country, something which I and other Members have raised in the House. We do not have an opportunity for such a debate today but if the Leader of the House accedes to such a request, in particular given some of the media reports today, it would justify further the need for and existence of this House.

Senator Joe O’Reilly: I second Senator Fitzgerald’s proposed amendment to the Order of Business, namely, that we have a special debate on banking today. It is scandalous that ordinary people who face job losses, are experiencing job losses and are experiencing income crises are observing the pensions, bonuses and behaviour of our senior bankers. It is not sustainable. There is a seething anger which needs to be addressed. An urgent debate is required. There is a developing cynicism, anger, frustration and alienation from the whole process of Government among the public because of the Government’s unwillingness to confront such people. I support Senator Boyle’s proposition that we tax the bonuses and extra large pensions. It is wrong that this situation pertains and it should be stopped immediately. The public expects that. We can get no level of support. All of us hope for a good outcome from the current ballot on the pay agreement. How can one expect a proper outcome from any ballot while people observe what has gone on recently? It is a great difficulty. 4 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

Will the Leader organise a special debate on job creation with a specific emphasis on jobs in the green energy sector? I seek a one day debate on the concept of creating co-operative wind farms using the model of traditional co-operatives, which would be supported by the Government in their creation and which would have access to the national grid. We should also support micro-generators through improved grants and securing good tariffs for those exporting energy. There should be an emphasis on wave energy, which has enormous potential. In the context of jobs, there remains a huge anxiety in my area and we await a favourable outcome to the awful situation in the Quinn Group.

Senator Marc MacSharry: While I will not support the amendment, will the Leader arrange an urgent debate on banking?

Senator Ivana Bacik: Why not support the amendment?

Senator Marc MacSharry: As details are revealed about the recklessness of the regulatory regime over the past number of years, it is normal that people are as angry as they are. Yester- day there were revelations about recklessness within INBS over the past number of years and the regulatory regime during that period allowed such recklessness to take place. It is, therefore, important that we have a debate in order that the facts can be explained and we can seek to calibrate the systemic value of INBS, Anglo Irish Bank and the other institutions and whether they should be merged, wound down etc. The debate could allow us to go back over the recapitalisation proposals and to discuss the moneys outlined by the Minister for Finance that will be required to rehabilitate our financial system. I also seek an urgent debate on the HSE’s interpretation and acknowledgement of the Free- dom on Information Act 1997. A year ago this week, I made an application under the Act requesting the interim report prepared by HIQA on symptomatic breast disease services in University College Hospital Galway. I highlighted at the time in the House that this request had been refused by the HSE, notwithstanding that in the letter of refusal, it basically admitted it was not meeting the relevant standards. I appealed the decision and that was declined. I then referred the file to the Information Commissioner, Ms Emily O’Reilly, for whom we can be grateful. She found in my favour and she annulled the HSE’s decision not to provide the information. I referred ad nauseam this time last year to the transfer of services from Sligo General Hospital and to the systemic importance of the information in the interim report to the people of Sligo whose services were being transferred to Galway. Clearly the HSE had something to hide and it will come out with the help of Emily O’Reilly that this is the case. However, the horse is long gone and we have the final report. The issue of secrecy and the HSE preventing access to information of importance to the public is extremely important and it is time we acknowledged the fact that an arm’s length organisation such as the HSE should not have the independence to act that it has. The health boards were abolished and now we are experiencing the difficulty of not having an element of public representation within the HSE. It is allowed to hide information, which thankfully Emily O’Reilly has directed should be made available.

Senator Feargal Quinn: When I am on holidays, I sometimes ask the newsagent if he can give me a newspaper with good news only. That does not often happen. We have had two weeks away from the House and I worry there is a danger that we have forgotten how to talk about good news. We face serious challenges from volcanoes, financial attacks and everything else but there is a great deal of good news out there and I would like the Leader to arrange for one session in which the word “but” is not allowed to be used. In other words, one session in which we can send a message that we can do it. 5 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

Senator Donie Cassidy: One day a week. We could do it every Thursday.

Senator Feargal Quinn: One day a week or better.

An Cathaoirleach: No interruptions, please.

Senator Donie Cassidy: We should keep a balance.

An Cathaoirleach: No interruptions, please.

Senator Feargal Quinn: When I played rugby, on one occasion our trainer talked about the attacking and defending teams. I asked what he meant by the attacking team, whether that was when the ball was on the field. He said, “No,” but had to think for a moment. He said the attacking team was the team in possession of the ball, even on its own back line. I suggest that is a message we have to send to the rest of country. We have a lot of challenges, but we also have a lot of good news. To find out good news about this country one should read last week’s Newsweek magazine and the quotes from people such as Jean-Claude Trichet who referred to Ireland as being a role model. We have 750,000 people more working now than ten years ago. We have some very good stories, as well as challenges ahead of us. Let us make sure we regard these challenges as something we can overcome, but we will not overcome them if we continu- ally and solely talk about the downswing rather than the upswing. Let us make sure we talk about the upswing.

Senator Terry Leyden: I doubt that even the Ombudsman would be able to achieve——

An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader, not for Members across the floor?

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Do you have good news, Terry?

Senator Joe O’Toole: Do not criticise the Government again.

An Cathaoirleach: Members, please.

Senator Terry Leyden: Senator O’Toole made a point about Goldman Sachs. Everyone in the House should examine their portfolios. Perhaps they will decide to resign, sell or get rid of them because the questions raised by the Senator are very important. I hope we will hear more about this in the future in the way we heard about other issues in the past.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Senator should not name Members of the House in their absence.

Senator Terry Leyden: A serious issue has arisen in terms of Mr. Fingleton and the Irish Nationwide Building Society. I ask him to give back the €1 million. We want the money — show us the money. People want the money back. The sum of €1.5 million for Mr. Boucher is obscene to say the least.

Senator Nicky McFadden: Hear, hear.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: We should get it back off him.

Senator Terry Leyden: One could ask whether the people concerned expect to live to be 140.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: The Minister allowed it. 6 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

Senator Terry Leyden: They are paying pensions of €355,000 per year at 55 years of age. This is obscene. Many difficulties are apparent. We are subsidising the banks and paying for them. We own them.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should ask the Leader a question.

Senator Terry Leyden: I ask the Leader for a debate on the matter. I am also disappointed that Irish Life-Permanent TSB, in which I have a small shareholding, was funding Anglo Irish Bank to the tune of €7.4 million, as exposed in Senator Ross’s book, The Bankers, a worth- while publication. Will the Leader arrange to have a discussion on the activities of An Bord Pleanála and the granting of planning permission for a mast at Dunamon within 30 m of a couple with three children aged under five years? I question the link between the company involved, Threefold, and Eircom and the workings of An Bord Pleanála. Something stinks in the state of Denmark. There is a need for a debate on An Bord Pleanála. There is collaboration or collusion in the granting of planning permission in this case.

An Cathaoirleach: Time.

Senator Maurice Cummins: The Senator did not vote for it in the Bill.

Senator Terry Leyden: I will expose the matter in the House. I will table a motion on the matter which I hope the Cathaoirleach will accept. We will have a long debate on the matter.

An Cathaoirleach: We will consider the motion when it is tabled.

Senator Terry Leyden: Something is very wrong when An Bord Pleanála grants planning permission to destroy the health of three young children in my area.

An Cathaoirleach: I thank the Senator.

Senator Terry Leyden: It is a disgrace and a scandal.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: There has been good news about the weather.

Senator Dan Boyle: The Government did it.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: The weather has been phenomenal recently which has helped to lift morale. However, we need to be careful——

Senator Liam Twomey: Did it set off the volcano?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: ——that we stay in touch with the realities of people’s lives. Many are experiencing difficulty owing to an inability to collect bad debts. A group of small and medium businesses in Galway indicated it was the single biggest issue facing its members. Subcontractors, in particular, are affected. All Members have probably received a letter from Mr. Seán Gallagher from “Dragon’s Den”——

An Cathaoirleach: I do not wish the Senator to mention names in the House or advertise correspondence.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Subcontractors are badly affected. The be-all and end-all is that they have little protection, if any, in law. I really want us to have—— 7 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate on the issue?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: ——an urgent debate in which we would invite the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to consider the supports and protection that could be provided in law to help people collect money they are due for goods and services they have supplied. I have a letter from a person who received money from the Department of Education and Science for work done on a school building. The goods subcontractor was not paid, yet the contractor was. This is wrong. We must provide some protection in law in order that subcontractors who are hiring many people around the country will not be left high and dry.

Senator Mark Daly: It is not often that a former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations comes to the Oireachtas. On 3 April Mr. Dore Gold was here. It is unfortunate that when he was, he misled and deceived Members on the situation in the West Bank. He told members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs that in 2008 there had been 41 road 3o’clock blocks and 14 this year. When other members of the committee and I were in the West Bank in 2008, we were briefed by the UN humanitarian affairs division and told us there had been 380 road blocks in 2005 and 580 in 2007. There are now over 600. Mr. Gold told us that there were 14. When I challenged him on this, he said he would come back to us, but he has still not done so. When I asked him about the case of two girls, one aged nine years, Souad, and one aged three years, Amal, who had been shot by the Israeli defence forces while holding white flags, he said he would come back to us, but he has not yet done so.

Senator Maurice Cummins: He only met us last week.

Senator Mark Daly: I ask the Leader to organise a debate on the situation in the Middle East and outline how a former ambassador of another country could mislead us in the way Mr. Dore Gold has done.

Senator Ivana Bacik: I support the calls for a debate on banking policy today. I also call on the Members on the Government side who called for an urgent debate on the issue to support the amendment to the Order of Business such that we can have the debate today, a day on which everyone is shocked by the revelation of the excessive and reckless losses incurred by the Irish Nationwide Building Society, bearing in mind its relatively small loan book. In the debate we could usefully look at what has happened in Iceland, if we could see it through the clouds of volcanic ash erupting there. In Iceland there was a robust banking inquiry, in which were named the small number of individuals found responsible for collapsing its banks. We could learn from this. Senator Boyle’s rather vague description of the banking inquiry to be held here is simply not sufficient to answer the public demand for an open, transparent and public banking inquiry. There is clearly a public demand for such an inquiry and it is what we need. Senator Boyle——

An Cathaoirleach: I do not want the Senator to comment on Members across the floor. She is seeking a debate on the issue. If it is allowed by the Leader, what people did or did not say can be discussed.

Senator Ivana Bacik: I ask for a debate on the legislation proposed by Senator Boyle to remedy certain excessive payments made to individuals in banking. Some of the suggestions he made were very sensible. We look forward to seeking legislation from the other side of the House and debating it. I also ask the Leader for a debate on another matter, in respect of which we can learn from Iceland which looks to women politicians to try to fix its collapsed economy. Women were elected to replace the men who had led the country into chaos. One woman in the other House 8 Order of 20 April 2010. Business. would make an excellent Minister for Finance in the next Labour Party-led Government and I believe she will be the next Minister for Finance.

Senator Terry Leyden: Is it not a Labour Party-led Government? Am I mishearing something?

Senator Ivana Bacik: I am talking about Deputy Joan Burton.

An Cathaoirleach: There are to be no interruptions. The Senator’s time is up.

Senator Ivana Bacik: In that context, I ask once again for a debate on women’s participation in politics. We have been promised such a debate many times in the past few months. Members on both sides of the House are seeking a debate on the issue and I ask the Leader to commit to a date as a matter of urgency.

Senator Terry Leyden: The Senator is getting carried away.

Senator John Hanafin: I support calls for a debate involving the Minister for Finance. Nat- urally, I would not expect him to cancel all his duties today and put down his tools immediately in order that we could debate an issue that could be debated on another date. In particular I note the bank regulator appears to be doing very good job at the moment in outlining exactly what needs to be done to ensure confidence in the market. There appears to be very strong international confidence in the work he is doing. Of course we have had bad news, but it is important we hear it now and deal with it. We have sympathy, of course, for those people who have built up fine businesses, including the Quinn Group. Notwithstanding that, the Quinn Group is still a fine business and hopefully it will continue to thrive. That said, I suggest that before we make calls, individually, about what the Government can do, bear in mind that it could not have interfered in Irish Nation- wide’s decision to grant the €1 million to Mr. Fingleton, because at that stage it had neither given the guarantee nor had control of the building society. It is only now that we can make those decisions. I am certain the slow but very meticulous and correct procedure of due process is clearing out many of the difficulties in the banks and ensuring that throughout the country people with assets who have debts are now paying them in full, despite the impression given by the Opposition.

Senator Liam Twomey: There is a need for a debate on banking because it is going to take the equivalent of the extra interest being paid by 500 householders this year to give Mr. Boucher his pension top-up. Small to medium-sized enterprises across the country are being destabilised because of bank lending policy. Elderly shareholders in the two major banks bought shares to protect their pension incomes in their later years. An enormous number of people have pensions invested with those two banks which are now decimated because of their lending policies. This is what is driving the general public mad as regards the banks and the way the Government is handling the situation. If the Government just wants to hand out platitudes and try to spin a story to the effect that everything is fine, it will reap the anger of the general public as the bankers walk away with the millions in their enhanced pension funds. The Minister for Finance and his Cabinet colleagues need to wake up to how the general public feels about this and we could start by having a debate in this House because every single person is being hurt by present banking policy. I, too, would love to hear good news in this House every day, but there is only one thing worse than hearing bad news all the time in the Seanad, namely, false dawns. We have had numerous false dawns in this House. We have been told that we have turned corners, that 9 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

[Senator Liam Twomey.] “green shoots” were discernible and everything was fine. When something happens three months later, however, such assertions are seen to be lies or false dawns at the very least. In the event, public confidence and people’s security are hit even more as regards how they feel about the economy. If we are to have discussions in the Seanad based on good news, let them at least be truthful for the benefit of the general public.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin: Senator Quinn’s proposal as regards good news is a good suggestion. It is important to have good spirits both in this House and indeed in the country. I refer to my earlier comments as regards the Romanian Senate which unanimously passed a decree to the effect that there should be 50% good news and 50% bad news in newspapers. Unfortu- nately, it appears it was not possible to define what was good news and what was bad, so this presented something of a problem.

(Interruptions).

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin: As regards questions for the Leader, I support the call for a debate by Senator O’Reilly, which was good news, as regards co-op wind farms. That certainly is a good suggestion, and he might also look into the idea of biogas. Other countries such as Germany have strong biogas industries, while in Ireland there is great potential but actually zero——

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: That is up to the Government.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin: Yes, indeed it is and we are working on it. Finally, there is a volcano erupting in Iceland which indeed is an act of God, but——

Senator Paudie Coffey: There is more hot air there, too.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin: Indeed, there is an enormous amount of hot air. I call for a debate on this because there are quite important implications. If a member of my party had suggested a few weeks ago that all the planes in Europe were going to be grounded because of a volcano in Iceland, Members opposite would have suggested we were all sandal-wearing, bearded, muesli-eating hippies——

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator must ask a question of the Leader.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin: In all seriousness——

Senator Liam Twomey: We know the Senator is not God.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin: ——this matter has huge implications for our country. This is an island nation and many multinationals here rely on airplanes for exporting produce from this country.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: The Senator is against them.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin: This is a serious matter which requires a full debate in the House.

Senator Shane Ross: I am not as certain about Senator Fitzgerald’s proposal for a debate on banking as other Members on this side of the House. Quite honestly, I am not sure the bankers take any notice—— 10 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

Senator Joe O’Toole: Hear, hear.

Senator Shane Ross: ——of what happens in this House. Indeed, I am doubtful that they take any notice of what happens in the Dáil either. These guys are pretty arrogant. If we hold a debate in which some Minister will tell us nothing can be done about the payment into Mr. Boucher’s pension fund, I am not sure there is any point. It is all right to have a debate, but why not have some action? I do not accept the Government’s statement that it can do nothing about this €1.5 million bonus. I suggest that the Government fire Mr. Boucher if he does not give the money back. The Government was very effective in removing Mr. Boucher’s predecessor and the chief executive and chairman of AIB, as well as the chairman of Bank of Ireland. Why can it not fire the present chief executive, Mr. Boucher, in the same way? It is a new ball game. Senator O’Toole was correct to compare the banks to the semi-State bodies. We own Bank of Ireland, in effect. The Government is in charge. It can dictate who is on the board and, by extension, who is the chief executive. Senator Leyden is correct. This guy is getting a payment which will give him a pension of over €350,000 per year.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has made his point.

Senator Shane Ross: Yes, but I am asking for action. I am not so sure we should have a debate because I do not believe it will be followed by action. This is a Government matter and is not a matter of which it can wash its hands. The Government must issue a directive to the governor and board of Bank of Ireland, who are partially the Government’s nominees, stating that if Mr. Boucher does not give back this money, given that he is chief executive of a bankrupt bank, they should fire him or they will be fired themselves.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Hear, hear.

Senator Ivor Callely: I listened with interest to the comments on the banking issue. The banking and financial issue is far bigger and broader than the remuneration package of the chief executive officer of Bank of Ireland. I support the view that there should be a debate on banking and finance, and that the debate should be meaningful and take place when the Mini- ster for Finance is able to attend. There are grave and serious problems and the public would prefer us to focus on the broader and bigger issues rather than on a singular matter. I wholeheartedly support Senator Quinn’s views regarding good news. There is much good news in so far as we are on the path to economic renewal and can have confidence in the future. Consider how Ireland is placed in Europe. Ireland is a nation with a young, well educated and flexible workforce. We are English speaking, part of monetary union, well placed geographi- cally and have a low tax rate. The level of foreign direct investment that has been encouraged into Ireland, particularly from multinationals, and the level of job creation, in addition to matters such as the sale of State bonds, have all been hugely successful. There is a great story and we should be selling that good news. I support Senator Quinn in that regard. I have two questions for the Leader. Will he confirm there will be supports for people who are caught up in the current air traffic difficulties? I refer to supports for people who may have to pay a rent or a premium to a local authority and would be penalised if this is not paid or people who have to sign on to avail of a benefit or those who may have to submit an application form. Will the Leader confirm that all those people will be accommodated and will not lose out? I support Senator MacSharry’s view about the HSE and the health boards. I have raised this issue many times in the House. It is about time we looked at the structure of the HSE and re- introduced local political representation. 11 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

Senator Nicky McFadden: I support the call for a debate on banking. I also agree with Senator Ross that we need action. I wish to raise the issue of the faceless bondholders because their names should be published. We need to see who these people are and how we are bailing them out. The other issue I wish to raise is the €15 million top-up for Mr. Boucher’s pension which should either not be paid or else should be returned. Under the banking guarantee scheme the Minister for Finance has the option and power to intervene. The Minister should come to the House to answer those points. On another point, thousands of public sector workers are being encouraged to agree to a new pay deal which means they will forgo an increase in their pay for four years. It is a real kick in the teeth for these people to hear that this banking official who has destroyed our banking system will be given a top-up of his pension. Why are the members of the Opposition being penalised by the public sector local authority workers along with Fianna Fáil members who have been in Government for 20 years and who have caused this heartache for them? It is not fair.

Senator Ann Ormonde: I agree with all the points raised about the banking issue. I agree we should have a debate, particularly when one reads about the behaviour of the senior bankers and about the Fingleton million. There is significant public anger, given the loss of jobs. I support the call for an urgent debate. I am not sure if the debate could be held today so I will not be supporting the amendment to the Order of Business.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Why not?

Senator Ann Ormonde: I have given my reason. I wish to raise another issue which is to do with the courses run by FÁS. It seems the marking criteria for some of these courses has not been followed and a review of those courses has taken place. I ask for a debate about the kind of courses being run by FÁS, their content and cost and how applicants are being assessed. It was the case that people were used as fillers in order for the course to proceed. I ask for a debate on how these courses fit in with today’s thinking on job retraining, job creation and upskilling. I am in a position where I should know about these courses but I do not know enough about them. Another important point is the liaison between VECs and FÁS. In my view there is a lot of duplication and waste of money. I recommend a debate on this issue.

Senator Maurice Cummins: I support the calls for a debate on banking. The Minister needs to come to the House to address a number of questions such as have been posed by Senator Ross. Why should the taxpayer be expected to invest another cent in a building society such as Irish Nationwide? In addition to senior management, will the board members in the banks and building societies be interrogated as regards their reckless lending practices and their policies for topping up pensions? There is also a need for a thorough investigation into the role of accountants, auditors and solicitors. Many of these so-called professionals acted in a less than professional manner in their dealings with financial institutions and developers. Those who acted improperly should not be allowed to get off scot free. It is not sufficient that their respec- tive professional bodies are left to deal with them. A debate on banking could address a number of questions. The deficit in the financial information available to us also needs to be addressed by the Minister. I, therefore, ask the Leader to accede to the requests of the vast majority of Senators by arranging a debate on banking today. I hope the Members on the other side of the House who support the request will vote on the amendment to the Order of Business accordingly. 12 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

Senator Paschal Mooney: I support Senator Ó Brolcháin’s remarks on the ash cloud that has enveloped the country and created a crisis for the airline industry across Europe. I ask the Leader to consider inviting the Minister for Transport to the House because the decisions that have been taken in the interests of public safety are having a devastating effect on an already weakened economy as they trickle down. If the opportunity arises, I would like to inquire why the suggestion made on television last night by Mr. O’Ceidigh, CEO of Aer Arann, on has not been adequately addressed. He has pointed out that the aircraft his company uses have turbop- rop engines and fly at an altitude of between 10,000 ft. and 15,000 ft., significantly below the 20,000 ft. no fly limit imposed by European aviation regulators. He stated in an emergency he could fly people between this country and England. Although the proportion of our goods exported by air is, at approximately 2%, relatively small in the overall scheme of things, they primarily comprise valuable pharmaceutical and medical products. We will be facing a crisis in this regard if the matter is not resolved in the next couple of days. As the volcanic eruption appears to alternately intensify and decrease, we do not know for how much longer it will continue. In the national interest, therefore, it is important to hear from the Minister on the steps being taken to minimise the adverse impact on the economy.

Senator Dominic Hannigan: Senator Mooney made a valid point. As an island nation, it is incumbent on the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, to be at the forefront in the discussions with his European counterparts with a view to minimising the impact of the problem which, as we all know, could persist for days. Solutions that would be acceptable in terms of safety should be explored. The Minister should take personal responsibility for doing this. On the comments made by Senators Ó Brolcháin and O’Reilly regarding co-operative wind farms, I attended several workshops on the matter at the Copenhagen summit and was impressed by the success enjoyed by certain Welsh co-operatives. I would welcome, therefore, a debate on the matter and ask that it be expanded to include the issues raised by Senator Leyden regarding An Bord Pleanála. Issues pertaining to An Bord Pleanála also arose at the conference organised for councillors and held in Sligo a couple of weeks ago which was attended by a number of Senators, including Senators Walsh, MacSharry and Coghlan. I was surprised at the low level of morale among councillors who feel undervalued by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It would be helpful if we had a debate on planning to include the roles and responsibilities of local authority members, particularly in respect of the Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill 2009 and the Dublin mayoral election.

Senator Larry Butler: I support Senator Quinn’s proposal that we pay attention to the good news stories told everyday. He gave the retail industry a lead in this regard through his successful television programmes which demonstrated how people with the expertise he possessed could turn around an ailing business. It is an important and positive initiative. I ask for a debate on job creation with the relevant Minister. It is important that the new Minister would come to the House and explain to Members how he proposes to deal with job creation for the next two years. I welcome this morning’s report from Bank of Ireland — I do not welcome many of its utterances and actions — has predicted that the economy will grow this year in the order of 1%, which is a positive indication.

Senator Maurice Cummins: They are great.

Senator Paudie Coffey: There it goes again. 13 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

Senator Larry Butler: I also welcome the new jobs which have been announced this month, which number more than 500. It is the first time for some time that we have seen some good news in this regard. There has also been a reduction of 12,400 in the number unemployed.

Senator Maurice Cummins: They have emigrated.

Senator Larry Butler: That is very much to be welcomed. The sum of €122 million is also being spent in 1,400 schools on renovation work this year which will create in the order of 4,400 jobs. That is very positive stuff.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Are they new or existing building jobs?

Senator Larry Butler: It is important we announce these matters and ensure this sort of production is carried out in the country. I agree with and support Senator Mooney when he says we have a serious situation on our hands regarding our aviation industry and how our exports are going. The Minister should come to the House to speak to Members about what we could do about that.

Senator Paul Coghlan: I strongly support the call for a debate on banking. I refer to the five participating institutions in NAMA. There have been so many wrongs perpetrated on the taxpayer and we are doing so much for them to get it right that we are constantly in need of updates on these matters. It is timely for the Leader to arrange that. There should be no question of any increases whatsoever in salaries for anyone, and there should be no increases in pension top-ups. Many are enduring so many cutbacks that it is proper that we should all move in unison, whether in the private or public sector, in the national interest. It is not happening. These institutions literally had their hands in the lion’s jaw. As Senator Ross has stated, there are public interest directors in the banks and we are assisting them so much with their recapitalisation that there should be no question of any of this. The State should have a firmer hand on the tiller and should be insisting on and if necessary, dictating policy. This matter is getting out of hand and it must be stopped now. Let us have a debate on it. Let us hear what the story is and get the proper facts, not that I think we know them. I do not want to go through the wrongs and the loans that were written off in Anglo Irish Bank, what happened in Irish Nationwide Building Society and the pension top-up for the chief executive of Bank of Ireland. One could list a litany in regard to each of the five.

An Cathaoirleach: We can have that in the debate.

Senator Paul Coghlan: It is true for you, a Chathaoirligh, and I respect that. I also support the call of Senator Hannigan in regard to the recent LAMA conference. The Leader should bear that in mind. It is important that this House would deal with those issues of great concern to the councillors of Ireland.

Senator Terry Leyden: Was Senator Coghlan canvassing for the Seanad?

Senator Paul Coghlan: Seriously, many of them are investing so much time and energy in serving their communities, I fear they are being misunderstood at the top, and that is wrong too.

Senator Terry Leyden: Not by Senator Coghlan.

Senator Jim Walsh: I am looking for a debate on the aviation difficulties and the restrictions in place at present. I fear they may not last only for a day or two and could last for weeks and possibly months. It warrants a debate in this House. There are pros and cons in regard to it. 14 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

On the Order of Business there is a motion which will be taken without debate to approve the Press Council on a statutory basis. My support for that is out of duty to the Whip rather than out of any sense of conviction in the matter. The tabloid influence on the media in this country has been enormous. There is a complete lack of objectivity and, indeed, there is considerable prejudice throughout much of the media. The Press Council is a creature of the newspaper businesses themselves and of the media.

Senator Paul Coghlan: That is not fair.

Senator Jim Walsh: That is a fact. It is set up by them. That is casting no aspersions on the individuals. The chairman is present in the Chamber. From what I can gather, those who are on the council — I do not know any of them — are persons of very good repute. However, as we know, self-regulation does not work. Will the Minister attend the House to explain why he has been dragging his feet on the privacy Bill? The House wanted that Bill to be enacted at the same time as the defamation Bill but that did not happen. Everyday one sees stories in the newspapers which certainly fall far short of the standards one would like to see in the media. On the calls made by other Senators for a debate on what happened in Goldman Sachs, a commentator on an American news channel who has taken a keen interest in this matter for several years said recently that it was only symptomatic of what was happening in many US financial companies. In the same way Ireland was affected by the global downturn, one can rest assured such practices were not alien to the financial industry here. I, therefore, call for a debate on ethics and morality in corporate governance. We need individuals in corporations to be held personally liable, in the same way as health and safety legislation overrides the corporate veil, in order that people can face criminal action as a consequence of their failures in governance. I also call for a debate on general banking policy. The Financial Regulator has come in for much praise recently, but I do not give him any praise. He is paid well to do his job and he should do it.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: How did the Senator feel about Neary?

Senator Jim Walsh: I was alarmed to hear the Financial Regulator say the banks would continue to replenish their balance sheets by increasing their margins on interest rates. This means they will be allowed to increase interest charges for the very people who had money thrown at them irresponsibly by the banks through 100% and 130% mortgages. This is simply not good enough. I ask for an immediate debate on this specific aspect of banking policy.

Senator Maurice Cummins: This is a speech by Senator Walsh.

Senator John Paul Phelan: It has been the longest contribution so far.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Walsh has made his point.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Will the Leader join me in saying today’s good news is that we are one day closer to the next general election when Fianna Fáil will be booted out of power?

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach: We are taking questions to the Leader on the Order of Business.

Senator Mark Daly: Senator Buttimer was waiting to stand up all over Easter. 15 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: The second piece of good news is that we have a Financial Regulator and a chairman of the Central Bank who are willing to act on behalf of the people.

Senator Dan Boyle: Who appointed them?

Senator Jerry Buttimer: That is rich coming from people like Senator Boyle who has lost touch with reality.

Senator Maurice Cummins: It is like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Senator Dan Boyle: It is the Governor of the Central Bank, by the way.

An Cathaoirleach: We are taking questions to the Leader on the Order of Business.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: If Senator Boyle is so concerned about the people’s welfare, will he and the Leader join me in calling for a banking inquiry to be public?

Senator Dan Boyle: I have already said such an inquiry will be quite public.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: They are running scared.

An Cathaoirleach: Please, Senator.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Fine Gael amendment to the Order of Business is correct because the position of the banks has not changed at all.

An Cathaoirleach: Members will decide on the matter. The amendment has been proposed and seconded.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: I appreciate that, but the reality is that the banking fraternity has not listened or learned and is still not willing to act on behalf of the people. Does the Leader believe it is right that Mr. Boucher will receive a pension of €350,000 per annum?

Senator Paul Coghlan: It is actually €355,000 per annum.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Is this right at a time when ordinary decent people are being refused medical cards and the number of home help hours is being cut? Is it right when those who have lost their jobs are struggling to repay their mortgages? Does the Leader understand that the people have lost hope and, in many cases, the will to live?

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has made his point.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: This is because of the Government’s recklessness.

Senator Donie Cassidy: This is a Second Stage speech.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Government has failed to act on behalf of the people.

An Cathaoirleach: We do not want a political speech. We are taking questions to the Leader.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: With all due respect, it is not a political speech. You should come out with me and knock on doors in Cork; then you would hear the people.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has made his point. 16 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: It is not a political speech but the reality. The people have been let down by the Government and the Members opposite.

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator Dearey. This is the Order of Business and there should be questions to the Leader.

Senator Mark Dearey: It has been an interesting hour and a quarter, with good ideas coming from all sides, two of which concerned action rather than debate and which I want to pick out, in particular. I support the calls for action on the Boucher payment which I found deeply disappointing and which demonstrated a breathtaking level of arrogance. We all have our responses to the various revelations about the banking sector, partly through the action of the Financial Regulator and the decisions made by the Government. People feign shock but it is because of NAMA that much of this information is coming to light. I found the news about the Boucher payment particularly disappointing and life-sapping. I support Senator Boyle’s calls for the taxation of such payments and Senator Ross’s call for the Government to ask Mr. Boucher to consider his position. It will take action of this order to bring the people concerned to heel. I support Senator O’Toole’s suggestion for dealing with Goldman Sachs. However, I would go further and suggest the Financial Regulator conduct an investigation into the affairs of Goldman Sachs in this country, similar to the one being carried out by the Financial Services Authority in the United Kingdom. This morning on Louth local radio Deputy O’Dowd described the Financial Regulator as world class and said a sea change had occurred in regulation. The Goldman Sachs case would be a good demonstration of this and to the satisfaction of both sides of the House. The Financial Regulator should extend his investigations to Gold- man Sachs, while, as Senator O’Toole suggested, the State cleanses itself of any investment or engagement with the institution.

Senator Rónán Mullen: I am glad the Leader welcomed the Press Ombudsman and former Senator, Mr. John Horgan, to the Visitors Gallery. I wish him and the Press Council well in their work. I remind the Leader that I have asked on numerous occasions for a debate on standards in the media. Senator Walsh raised pertinent issues in this regard. Why is the motion concerning the council’s formal recognition being taken today without debate when it would have presented an ideal opportunity to have a debate on media standards? We have had the treatment of the Minister for Finance by a television station which attracted universal criticism, the recent inflammatory headlines in tabloid newspapers on how certain businessmen who had left the country down should be treated and an ongoing controversy about the salaries paid to top earners in RTE at taxpayers’ expense. Today there is a report on the number of times Senators voted. I am glad I am not on the firing line and therefore feel at liberty to speak on the issue. What is the standard of journalism when journalists try to measure the productivity of the Seanad by reference to how many times Senators walk to the Chamber to vote? I say this with no disrespect to all those who do so under strong pressure by their party’s Whip, many of whom are fine Senators who make fine contributions. Such lazy journalism, however, is about measuring how well Senators walk, not how well they talk. We should have media scrutiny of the quality of the contributions made in the House.

An Cathaoirleach: We are not discussing the Press Council now.

Senator Rónán Mullen: I understand that, but it leads to another request I have to make of the Leader. 17 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

An Cathaoirleach: That is what I want to hear.

Senator Rónán Mullen: The quality of debates in this Chamber will be determined by how often they are organised to address relevant matters. I know the Leader has a duty to the Government parties to organise debates when the Government has something it wants to say. However, he also has a duty to represent our desire to have certain issues surface from time to time. That is why I support Senator Fitzgerald’s call for a debate on banking today. I also support Senator O’Toole’s call for action against Goldman Sachs, particularly when the general secretary of Germany’s Christian Social Union has said that as long as investigations into the company are ongoing, government dealings with it should be put on hold. That is the kind of issue that should be at the core of our discussions today. I remind the Leader that I asked him before the break for a debate on the Government’s cardiovascular implementation plan. He said at the time that the Government would continue to examine that issue but I want a debate. We must consider the importance of investment in stroke care. If we invest in stroke care now we could save tens of millions of euro in years to come and save many lives. We have only 11 acute hospitals with stroke units. These are the type of issues we need surfaced in the Seanad at the earliest opportunity. While I greatly appreciate the Leader’s courtesy when we ask for debates, it is not enough for him to say that he has no problem with it. We need a date in the diary.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has made the point to the Leader.

Senator Rónán Mullen: I ask him sincerely for an urgent debate in the diary on the media, media standards and the way we remunerate journalists. The debate on banking should take place at the earliest opportunity to allow us examine and critique the unethical way in which many bankers have acted and continue to act.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney: I do not rise in an effort to scare people but there was a major media debate and much hype at one stage regarding iodine tablets to be used in potential nuclear attacks. On the one o’clock news today there was a report that the volcanic ash is now at ground level. It was discovered in Galway. There is anecdotal evidence from the rest of the country that people are experiencing more respiratory problems as a result of the volcanic ash. People who already have respiratory problems are experiencing further difficulties. Could we get an update from the Minister for Health and Children on whether there is any health risk from this ash or even advice on the need for some people to use some form of protection when they are doing a lot of work or walking outside if they have an asthmatic condition or other illness in that respect? In terms of our workload, and staying within the health remit, there have been many reports recently on obesity, sedentary lifestyles and young children under the age of five having to have their teeth removed owing to tooth decay. Senator Quinn spoke earlier about the whole concept of good news. One of the good news stories in the past two weeks is that many parts of Ireland got good weather, which meant a lot of people went out walking or jogging. They got a good colour without having to leave the country. They did not get caught up in any strike or have to do battle with any mode of transport.

An Cathaoirleach: The point is made.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney: In the context of an economic decline where people cannot afford gym memberships I ask that we would examine what is going on with our younger people. We might encourage the new Minster for Arts, Sport and Tourism to come into the House to determine whether we can support, through her and the local authorities, the development of 18 Order of 20 April 2010. Business. safe walking ways. Many people are out on the road, and that is not necessarily safe. I have an ongoing battle in regard to cyclists who refuse to wear reflective gear or have lighting on their bicycles. We are trying to motivate people to do something that is more healthy, in the context of the wonderful weather we are experiencing.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has made the point.

Senator John Paul Phelan: I join Senators who have asked for a debate on banking and banking policy in general. I understand what Senator Hanafin said about the Minister for Finance but there are at least two if not three Ministers attached to the Department of Finance. There are several other Ministers who have a role in regard to banking policy and it should not be impossible to have that discussion today. Indeed, it should not have been impossible that it would have been arranged for today. After a two-week recess we should have had a debate on banking today arranged by the Leader. I am a bit fed up of the double speak that comes from the Government benches. I refer to people who express support for a debate on banking policy in the House but who will not vote for an amendment to have a debate or will not ensure the Leader has it on the Order Paper for any given day. On the Taoiseach’s comments yesterday, Senator Ross is right. The Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen, came out yesterday and washed his hands of the banking position, specifically relating to Mr. Boucher and Bank of Ireland, and that is not good enough. The taxpayers, through the Government, are significant shareholders in that institution. We have people on the board and we should be able to get a result. This is a time for action, not just discussion. I also join Senator MacSharry, who has just left the Chamber, in his request for a debate about the Health Service Executive and the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA. I have a particular issue in my part of the world, which issue affects the entire country, where the much awaited nursing home care standards are being implemented. Everybody agrees they should be implemented but they are being applied to supported care homes, which are not nursing homes, and are threatening their very existence. There are more than 200 people in supported care homes in Kilkenny. One was closed in Carlow last year because of these HIQA standards that require them to put in 24-hour nursing care even though they are not nursing homes and the people who are residents do not need 24-hour nursing care. These are voluntary organisations which are run as local charities, in effect. They raise their own money and get very little funding from the HSE. We cannot get answers from HIQA or from the HSE as to how those standards should be implemented. The people who run the supported care homes agree that they should have standards but not 24-hour nursing care standards because the residents do not require that. I agree with Senator Ó Brolcháin and others who raised the issue of what has happened following the volcanic eruption in Iceland and the vulnerability of Ireland in terms of our island status. It is ironic that it is only about two weeks since Iarnród Éireann announced the closure of the Rosslare to Waterford line, a service it deliberately ran down over a number of years to allow it to close it because the figures showed declining usage. We now have people from all over the country who want to get to Rosslare. We have got 2% of the overall volume of our exports but 30% of the value of our exports cannot get off the ground in airports throughout the country. It is ironic at a time when the Green Party is in Government that we are closing railway lines throughout the country. The Government, the Green Party, the Minister and Iarnród Éireann should seriously consider their position on that issue.

Senator Eoghan Harris: I listened with great interest to the long debate earlier which highlighted a number of issues and I want to touch on a few of those as they came up. 19 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

[Senator Eoghan Harris.]

First, the notion of good news and bad news is very relative. Obviously, the newspapers’ account of increases in the salaries for bank staff or senior executives is very good news for Mr. Boucher. He gets his good news and other people get bad news from the papers. In regard to the ash from the volcano, I am glad in many ways this has happened because it forces the media and the rest of us to face the fact that not everything in this life can be regulated, made perfect or controlled. Something that has always baffled me about the media is the notion that if somebody commits suicide by running a car into the sea, Wexford, Wicklow or Waterford County Council can be held to blame because they had an insufficient number of bollards or chains in place, as if somebody would not do it some other way. There is nobody to blame for what is happening now. People are scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for people to blame. I do not know when this eruption will end. It might not end for months. We will soon be faced with the same questions we are faced with in all walks of life when we go out to drive a car, namely, what level of death are we prepared to face to live our ordinary lives. We do it every morning if we drive a car because there is a certain death rate on the roads. At what stage do we say that we will have to take risks and fly in planes? We are an island nation. We have got to trade. We are a species. We have got to survive. Our whole life is a constant risk. We will have to look at this practically in regard to staying alive as a community. We will have to accept a margin of risk on this, and we should face up to that fact. Second, regarding the Press Council, it was mentioned that the chairman was a creature of the media. Anyone who knows John Horgan knows that he is a creature of nothing except the habit of speaking his own mind and always doing his own thing.

Senator Paul Coghlan: Hear, hear.

Senator Eoghan Harris: He will certainly not be bothered by anything that happened in that regard. In regard to the banks, the banks are in all but name now part of the public service. The thing to do is benchmark them. Their top men should be paid the same as the top men in the public service are paid and the rest of them should be paid pro rata. They should be treated fundamentally as nationalised industries. I congratulate the Labour Party on not proposing to abolish the Seanad but rather to reform it. The Labour Party should have had a very happy weekend because it seems to all of us who have been on the left in the past——

(Interruptions).

Senator Eoghan Harris: ——that the Marx and Engels notion that the capitalist system would wither away gently and that the state would finally find itself directing the economy is coming to pass in this country. We are now one of the purest communist states on earth.

Senator Paudie Coffey: The messages, language and actions of leadership in this country and the messages the public is receiving are very important. Regarding the banking sector, when we see Mr. Boucher accepting the massive increase in his pension entitlements, which is an entitlement according to this contract, it sends the wrong message to the public and to those under serious pressure paying their monthly mortgage and trying to keep their homes protected. We need to hear from the Government why it is allowing this because there are mechanisms to stop it. We should exercise whatever powers are available to us as a political class to ensure the excessive increases are not happening across the banking sector which has been 20 Order of 20 April 2010. Business. bailed out by the taxpayer. More specifically, Members called for a debate on banking. We need to have a debate on home mortgages and home protection. Numerous Senators spoke about this. With the latest increases in mortgage repayments, a new raft of people are coming under pressure. Every time mortgage interest increases, more people come under serious pressure to make repayments. Just over two years ago in this House, the Leader predicted the housing market would increase by 25% to 30% within 18 months. The Leader should tell House this prediction was wrong. We are lucky that many people did not take up the advice of the Leader, which was to buy houses.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Hear, hear.

Senator Paudie Coffey: That was very dangerous advice. It is a lesson to us, as political leaders and a political class, that we need to be responsible and very careful in the messages we give and the language we use. It is time we had a debate on this because many wrong messages are being given and many wrong actions are being taken. It is not giving our people hope and we need to debate it.

Senator Donie Cassidy: Before I respond to the Order of Business, I would like to say a few words about the sad passing of our dear friend and colleague, Senator Willie Farrell. I had a great personal and working relationship with him, and he was a wonderful man, a highly intelligent Member of Seanad Éireann and a truly excellent public representative. Many colleagues will have an opportunity to express their tributes to Willie at a later stage. He was——

An Cathaoirleach: We will formally deal with this matter later.

Senator Donie Cassidy: All Members will have an opportunity but we should not let pass the first day back without saying something about it.

Senator Joe O’Toole: On a point of order, I do not wish to cause a row but this is unfair. If we knew there were to be tributes to the former Senator, we would be able to speak on this and a procedure exists for it. I know he was a special friend of the Leader but we all worked with him as well and it looks awkward if one person speaks and no one else speaks.

Senator Donie Cassidy: We always say something about a deceased former Member on the first day back. In that event, I will adjourn my comments with the agreement of the House until the start of business tomorrow morning.

An Cathaoirleach: Are we taking formal tributes tomorrow morning?

Senator Donie Cassidy: No, we are just taking tributes from party leaders on the sad passing of Willie.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: That is formal.

Senator Donie Cassidy: At a later time, when the family is present in the House, we take formal tributes.

An Cathaoirleach: We will take formal tributes in the morning.

Senator Donie Cassidy: Yes, indeed. No. 1 on the Order Paper concerns the media and a debate on the media to express the strong views and concerns of Members was requested at the party leaders meeting today. We have already acknowledged the presence of former 21 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

[Senator Donie Cassidy.] Senator John Horgan, who was a Member of this House for eight years, in the Visitors Gallery and who is now playing a pivotal role in this area. The proposal of Senators Quinn, Mullen and several others reflects the major lack of balance in the media. It is incumbent on everyone that people are told the positive aspects as well as the negative. Looking at some television programmes at night-time, one would swear it was nearly the end of the world because all we see has nothing but negative connotations. Major advances and achievements are taking place, such as the 500 jobs created this month to which Senator Butler referred. Balance in the media is needed and it is the responsibility of editors and sub-editors not to direct reporters and journalists only towards negative or bad news with the message that otherwise they will not carry the stories. We have some excellent journalists. Worldwide opinion is that the journalists and reporters in Ireland are as good as in any country in the world. Editors and sub-editors want to send out only bad news.

Senator Rónán Mullen: When is the debate?

An Cathaoirleach: No interruptions.

Senator Donie Cassidy: The party leaders had a meeting today and not one of the party leaders requested an urgent debate on banking. I suggest Senator Mullen discusses it with his group leader, Senator O’Toole, because I was always forthcoming——

Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The agenda was out; that is nonsense.

Senator Donie Cassidy: This is blatant political opportunism.

Senator Ivana Bacik: It is not political opportunism.

Senator Alex White: On a point of order, there is no requirement on the party leaders to raise any issue with the Leader in respect of what Members propose to raise on the Order of Business.

An Cathaoirleach: That is not a point of order.

Senator Donie Cassidy: I fully agree with the remarks of Senator Alex White but I am explaining to the House and outlining this blatant political opportunism. I will inform the House tomorrow morning that, every week if possible but certainly every two weeks, we will review and update proceedings and allow Members, with the Minister present, to express their opinions in respect of the serious issues evolving from day to day, many of which are unpre- cedented. None of us who has been here for a long time has seen what is happening in the banking world at present. I have no difficulty in allowing the longest possible time for all Senators, including Senators Fitzgerald, O’Toole, Alex White, Boyle, O’Reilly, MacSharry, Leyden, Healy Eames, Bacik, Hanafin, Twomey, Ó Brolcháin, Ross, Coffey, Callely, McFadden, Ormonde, Coghlan, Buttimer, Dearey and John Paul Phelan, who called for an urgent debate on banking. I have no difficulty in allowing time for this to take place. It is my intention to have updates on banking issues from a Minister or Minister of State every two weeks until the summer recess. Senator Alex White called for the Minister for Health and Children to come to the House to discuss health insurance and the reports by Ms Frances Ruane. I have no difficulty in acced- ing to this request. Senators O’Reilly and Ó Brolcháin referred to job creation and the opportunity for jobs to be created in the green energy sector. I refer to the energy reports, biogas, wind energy and the possibility of exporting energy in the long term. 22 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

The matter raised by Senators MacSharry and John Paul Phelan is serious. It is appalling when information that is the right of a Member of this House is denied by the HSE. I will pass on this information to the Minister for Health and Children immediately after the Order of Business and I will inform her of the experience Senator MacSharry had to go through to acquire the information. I compliment Ms Emily O’Reilly on what she has done to bring this matter to the fore. If it is a right of Members of the Oireachtas to be supplied with information, it is a poor day for democracy if the HSE refuses to do so. The person in the HSE who made that decision should be answerable to the Minister for Health and Children on this matter. Senator Quinn referred to the Press Council. I will arrange a debate on the Press Council and I will come back to the House with a definite date for it later this week. Senator Daly called for an urgent debate on the West Bank and I have no difficulty in allocating time on this point. The Senator outlined to the House what are in his opinion inaccuracies in regard to evidence given to the committee, which is certainly a serious allegation and a matter which we must look into. Senator Bacik called for a debate on women in politics. The Senator will recall this debate had to be deferred as the previous date of Holy Thursday was not suitable to the ladies of the House.

Senator Ivana Bacik: The women of the House.

Senator Donie Cassidy: I will take a look at the diary to see if I can allow for this debate to take place at an early time. Senators Ó Brolcháin, Mooney, Hannigan, Walsh, Keaveney and Phelan called for an update in regard to the difficulties being experienced by the aviation industry. Senator Mooney correctly pointed out to the House that this is an important issue in the national interest. The chief executive officer of Aer Arann appeared on television last night and the 4o’clock benefit of his experience and expertise in this regard, as given to the nation, should be looked at. It is my intention to have the Minister come to the House during the next couple of days to update it on the challenges facing Government and the entire country, in particular in regard to exports. I pay tribute to those responsible airlines which have been taking care of Irish people caught up in this unbelievable situation. I heard that one airline has been since last Thursday taking care of 190 Irish passengers stranded in Madrid. What has happened is an act of God. I was delighted to hear that good news story today. Senator Ormonde called for an urgent debate on FÁS and the huge amount of resources the Government is putting into it to retrain and upskill our young people and those who are unemployed so they will be ready for the upturn in the economy in a few years time. This is a matter on which this House should have a lengthy debate and I intend to invite the Minister to the House in this regard in the near future. Senators Hannigan and Coghlan asked about the Local Government (Planning and Development) Bill which, I understand, will come before the House this session and also includes sections in relation to the election of the Lord Mayor of Dublin and the Government’s proposal to hold the election at the end of this year or early next year. I am sure we all share Senator Buttimer’s concerns as expressed today and on other occasions in relation to people who are unemployed. One’s heart must go out to the 427,000 people concerned. It is the duty of Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas to do everything possible to ensure these people are given an opportunity to upskill and retrain. Senator Walsh asked about the privacy Bill. I will make inquiries and report back to the House later in the week in regard to when it will come before the House. I agree with Senator 23 Order of 20 April 2010. Business.

[Senator Donie Cassidy.] Walsh’s comments in regard to corporate governance and ethics in government. We can take up this issue with the Minister for Finance when he returns to the House. Senator Dearey called on the regulator to include Goldman Sachs in its inquiry. I will pass on the Senator’s strong views to the Minister for Finance. Senator Mullen again called for a debate in regard to the provision of stroke care units in our hospitals. It is alarming that only 11 hospitals have a stroke care unit. I have no difficulty in including this for debate with the Minister for Health and Children when she comes to the House. Senator Keaveney again called for a debate on obesity and what we can do to assist young children, including supporting those who are out walking and cycling in the current good weather. I fully agree with the Senator’s sentiments in this regard.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Fitzgerald has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: “That a debate on banking policy be taken today.” Is the amendment being pressed?

Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Yes.

Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 27.

Tá

Bacik, Ivana. McCarthy, Michael. Bradford, Paul. McFadden, Nicky. Buttimer, Jerry. Mullen, Rónán. Cannon, Ciaran. O’Reilly, Joe. Coffey, Paudie. O’Toole, Joe. Coghlan, Paul. Phelan, John Paul. Cummins, Maurice. Prendergast, Phil. Doherty, Pearse. Quinn, Feargal. Donohoe, Paschal. Ross, Shane. Fitzgerald, Frances. Ryan, Brendan. Hannigan, Dominic. Twomey, Liam. Harris, Eoghan. White, Alex. Healy Eames, Fidelma.

Níl

Boyle, Dan. Leyden, Terry. Brady, Martin. MacSharry, Marc. Butler, Larry. McDonald, Lisa. Callely, Ivor. Mooney, Paschal. Carroll, James. O’Brien, Francis. Carty, John. O’Malley, Fiona. Cassidy, Donie. Ó Brolcháin, Niall. Corrigan, Maria. Ó Murchú, Labhrás. Daly, Mark. Ormonde, Ann. Dearey, Mark. Phelan, Kieran. Feeney, Geraldine. Walsh, Jim. Glynn, Camillus. White, Mary M. Hanafin, John. Wilson, Diarmuid. Keaveney, Cecilia.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paudie Coffey and Maurice Cummins; Níl, Senators Niall Ó Brolcháin and Diarmuid Wilson

Amendment declared lost.

Order of Business agreed to.

24 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

Allocation of Time: Motion. Senator Donie Cassidy: I move:

That in each sitting until the adjournment of the Seanad for the summer recess the Leader of the House be called to reply to the Order of Business no later than 55 minutes after the proposal of the Order of Business; that the contribution of each Group Leader shall not exceed 3 minutes; the contribution of every other Senator shall not exceed 2 minutes; and the reply of the Leader of the House shall not exceed 15 minutes.

Question put and agreed to.

Defamation Act 2009 (Press Council) Order 2010: Motion. Senator Donie Cassidy: I move:

That Seanad Éireann approves the following Order in draft:

Defamation Act 2009 (Press Council) Order 2010,

copies of which have been laid in draft form before Seanad Éireann on 22 March 2010.

Question put and agreed to.

Inland Fisheries Bill 2009: Second Stage. Question proposed: “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.” Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): Iam pleased to have the opportunity to present the Bill for consideration. Its main purpose is to facilitate the restructuring of the inland fisheries sector through the establishment of a new national inland fisheries body which will be known as Inland Fisheries Ireland and which will replace the existing Central Fisheries Board and the seven regional fisheries boards which were established in 1980. The status quo is no longer valid almost 30 years after the design of the current structures was put in place. Too much has changed in the intervening years such as our understanding of the environment, the complex interplay of habitats and species, ecological biodiversity and the status of our inland fisheries stocks. Equally, too much is set to change to allow the continuation of the existing regime without modification. The restructuring proposed is in line with the programme of rationalisation of State bodies generally. The State’s role in the inland fisheries resource is concerned with the conservation, protection, management and development of freshwater fisheries throughout Ireland, including the management and surveillance of stocks listed in the habitats directive. In addition, the remit covers certain activities at sea, including protection of salmon and sea trout, and the support of sea angling. It is widely acknowledged that the inland fisheries resource, across all species, is under serious threat from environmental factors, including pollution, habitat degradation, water quality factors and over-exploitation. The Government has faced up to hard decisions in recent years, including closing the commercial mixed stock salmon fishery, the creation of a salmon hardship fund at a cost of €30 million to provide relief for those affected by the closure of the mixed stock fishery, the unequivocal adoption of scientific advice in the management of the salmon fishery and measures to protect our stocks of European eel. However, there is more to do. It is imperative that we put the right structures in place to will ensure the conservation and sustainable exploitation of our inland fisheries resource in the future. While the Department has overall policy responsibility for the conservation, management, regulation and development of the inland 25 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

[Deputy Eamon Ryan.] fisheries resource, it is assisted in its mission by the central and regional fisheries boards. Other agencies such as the Marine Institute, the Loughs Agency, Bord lascaigh Mhara and the ESB also play an important role in the sector. In cognisance of the increasing obligations on Ireland under European law and, in particular, responsibilities under the habitats and water framework directives, the Government has decided that Inland Fisheries Ireland should manage and report on its operations on the basis of the river basin districts established for the implementation of the water framework directive. Aligning the management of Inland Fisheries Ireland in this way will enable an integrated ecosystem approach to be adopted which will be fully co-ordinated with the structures already in place for the implementation of the water framework directive for environmental and habitat protection across all animal species. It will also better enable these matters to be dealt with on a co-ordinated North-South basis and be beneficial in terms of implementing future EU sponsored measures in the sector. Between them the central and regional fisheries boards comprise more than 150 board members, with each regional board having up to 23 members. Such numbers are unwieldy by any standard and can lead to divergent interests and competing aims between stakeholders. As we have seen in other areas, there is a need within boards for a high level focus on corporate governance and strategic issues. This will be best achieved by putting in place a small focused board on State bodies. Accordingly, it is proposed that the board of Inland Fisheries Ireland will consist of nine members. Following on from the approach adopted in the Broadcasting Act 2009, I have made provision for the involvement of an Oireachtas joint committee in the appointment of some of the members to Inland Fisheries Ireland. This continues a positive practice in appointments to State bodies and I look forward to working with colleagues in both Houses as part of this process. I stress this does not mean there will not be a role for the existing fisheries board members who have a genuine interest in inland fisheries and wish to make a legitimate contribution to the future development of the resource. The Bill requires Inland Fisheries Ireland to establish a national inland fisheries forum which will provide for a stakeholder input into policy formulation. It is envisaged there will be representation across the spectrum of stakeholders in the forum. Terms of reference for the operation of the forum are being drafted and I have advised the joint committee that I will circulate them for information once they are available. Stakeholder involvement is vital at a local level. However, it needs to be properly structured and channelled to ensure the input from diverse and, sometimes competing, stakeholders can be utilised to best effect. Such mechanisms should be operated by Inland Fisheries Ireland through the national inland fisheries forum. I expect the new body to put in place local advisory structures which will ensure the expertise and goodwill in the regions will not be lost. In considering options for the rationalisation of the sector it will be more beneficial for fisheries co-operative societies to cease and for resources deployed through them to be used as a basis for a grants scheme for local development groups. Such a scheme will be developed and operated by Inland Fisheries Ireland. More than 400 staff are employed by the fisheries boards. I stress that the terms and conditions of existing staff will not be lessened and that there is specific provision in the Bill to ensure this is the case. I recognise the energy and commitment of the competent inland fisheries workforce. It is important that this energy is harnessed to enable the continued sustainable exploitation of the resource. In these straitened times, however, we need to reduce the cost of public services and the newly streamlined Inland Fisheries Ireland will be better equipped to 26 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage. do this than the predecessor organisations. The new structures will be better able to cope with the required savings on public sector numbers applicable across the public service generally. There is potential for additional savings and a better use of existing resources as a result of the replacement of the Central Fisheries Board and the seven regional fisheries boards with a single body and the elimination of the National Salmon Commission and eight fisheries co- operative societies. The House will appreciate that it is difficult to quantify these savings, as they will occur over time, but I expect them to be delivered. The management of the service is operating with a budget which is reduced compared to the 2009 allocation and is set to meet the challenges applied to public expenditure budgets. I propose to outline the main provisions of the Bill. A detailed explanatory memorandum was prepared when the Bill was first published which provides a synopsis of its provisions. The Bill comprises 82 sections and six Schedules. Its purpose is the establishment of Inland Fisheries Ireland. However, for the purposes of better regulation, a number of existing provisions of the legislation governing inland fisheries management are restated. The restated provisions are unaltered, apart from changes to ensure they apply to Inland Fisheries Ireland and some minor drafting amendments. This ensures that as many provisions as possible pertaining to the new body are contained in a single statute which will make it easier for those referring to the legislation. Part 1 contains standard provisions dealing with definitions, repeals and expenses connected with the Bill. Section 5 provides that Inland Fisheries Ireland will be established on a day to be determined by the Minister by order. It is important a realistic target date is specified for all parties to work towards. In this regard, subject to Oireachtas approval of the legislation, I have set a target date of 1 July as the establishment day for the new body. Part 2 sets out the provisions governing Inland Fisheries Ireland and transitional arrangements required to ensure the smooth changeover to the new structures. The body will assume the functions of the existing Central Fisheries Board and regional fisheries boards and, in addition, undertake a number of new functions which are set out in section 7. The principal role of Inland Fisheries Ireland will be the protection and conservation of the State’s inland fisheries resource. It will also be required to promote, support, facilitate and advise the Minister on the conservation, protection, management, marketing, development and improvement of inland fisheries, including sea angling. In recognition of the need and the value of stakeholder participation in the sector, provision has been made in section 7 for the establishment of a national inland fisheries forum. Inland Fisheries Ireland will also become responsible for the establishment of a standing scientific committee which will advise on technical and scientific matters relating to the management of the State’s inland fisheries resource. This replaces the standing scientific committee established by the National Salmon Commission. Section 7 also ensures Inland Fisheries Ireland has the necessary powers for the continuation of the issuing of licences and striking of rates in accordance with the existing fisheries legislation. Section 8 ensures that all the functions conferred on the central and regional fisheries boards under the existing statute are transferred to Inland Fisheries Ireland on the establishment day. Section 9 provides that Inland Fisheries Ireland will manage and report its business on the basis of the river basin districts defined for the purposes of the European water framework directive. The section also allows for the modification, by order, of this arrangement if necessary. Such modification is subject to consultation with the joint Oireachtas committee, Inland Fisheries Ireland and such other bodies as the Minister deems appropriate. Section 12 sets out the membership and method of appointment of members to Inland Fisher- ies Ireland. The chairperson and two others will be appointed on the Minister’s nomination, 27 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

[Deputy Eamon Ryan.] two members will be appointed on the nomination of the Ministers for the Environment, Heri- tage and Local Government and Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs. One will be a staff representative appointed following an election process. The remaining three members will be appointed having regard to the advice of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Communi- cations, Energy and Natural Resources. That follows the approach adopted in the Broadcasting Act 2009. In addition, it is proposed to include the CEO as an ex officio member of the board, as is standard practice in State agencies. I have always maintained that the board should be small and contain a strong focus relevant to the business of Inland Fisheries Ireland and to the general issue of good corporate governance. I believe the provisions in the Bill achieve that. This is of particular importance given the significant annual budget for which the new body will be responsible. The Bill provides that potential appointees to the board must have had experience of or have shown capacity in one or more of a number of areas, including recreational fisheries, angling, commercial fishing and ownership of fisheries. Those competencies are no more or less important than the other competencies listed in the Bill, such as business or commercial affairs, environmental or biodiversity matters and legal or regulatory affairs, all of which are essential to effective stewardship of a State-sponsored body. It is my intention that members appointed to the board will have the necessary expertise and competency to lead Inland Fisheries Ireland to deliver fully on its potential. Section 13 sets out the procedures for the election of a staff representative to the board of Inland Fisheries Ireland. Section 14 makes provision for the term of office of members of Inland Fisheries Ireland and provides for a system of rolling appointments. That should ensure the corporate knowledge of the board is preserved at all times while also bringing fresh ideas and faces to the boardroom. Sections 15 to 22 set out the usual best practice procedures for the board including conditions of office, removal of members from office, resignations, casual vacancies and meetings and procedures of the board. Sections 23 to 27 make provision for the CEO of Inland Fisheries Ireland and provide for the delegation of the functions of the CEO to other staff members and the further sub-delegation of such functions. Sections 28 and 29 provide that the CEO shall be accountable to the Committee of Public Accounts and to all other committees of the Oireachtas. Section 30 makes provision for the appointment of employees to Inland Fisheries Ireland. Section 32 contains standard provisions relating to superannuation. Section 33 restates the equivalent section of the Fisheries Act 1980 and provides for the preparation by Inland Fisheries Ireland of a staff scheme for the regulation, control and management of its staff. Sections 35 to 39 contain usual provisions dealing with standards of integrity, unauthorised disclosure of confidential information and the protection of whistleblowers. Standard provision is also made in sections 41 to 47 in respect of corporate plans, estimates, grants, accounts and audits applicable to Inland Fisheries Ireland. Sections 48 to 56 set out the transitional arrangements for the changeover to the new structure and provides for the dissolution of the central and regional fisheries boards. Provision is made for the transfer of property, assets, rights and liabilities, including superannuation liabilities, to Inland Fisheries Ireland and to ensure that existing contracts, agreements and arrangements remain in force. Section 49 facilitates the transfer of employees of the existing boards to Inland Fisheries Ireland on terms and conditions of employment no less favourable than those enjoyed immediately prior to the transfer. Employees of Inland Fisheries Ireland will be covered by a broad range of employment protections under employment law. Sections 55 and 56 require Inland 28 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

Fisheries Ireland to prepare final accounts and a final annual report in respect of the central and regional fisheries boards. Part 3 restates existing provisions of fisheries legislation which deal with the administration of inland fisheries. These provisions remain unchanged apart from some minor drafting amendments and necessary changes to ensure they apply to Inland Fisheries Ireland. Section 57 restates provisions dealing with the by-law making powers of the Minister. The value of fines applicable for breaches of by-laws have been increased in keeping with the consumer price index, since last amended, to bring them in line with current values. Part 4 of the Bill restates a number of provisions of the Fisheries Act 1980 dealing with offences and legal proceedings under existing fisheries legislation. Again, monetary penalties have been increased in accordance with the consumer price index in order to ensure they are in line with current values. In most cases the fines were set in 1980 and have not been changed since. Section 80 restates the equivalent section of the Fisheries Amendment Act 2000 which put in place a regime for the payment of on-the-spot fines for minor inland fisheries offences in lieu of prosecution through the courts. Part 5 restates certain provisions of the Fisheries Act 1980 which deal with miscellaneous matters including powers of the Minister in operating a fishery. No changes have been introduced other than to ensure the provisions apply to Inland Fisheries Ireland. There are six schedules to the Bill. Schedule 1 sets out the repeal of existing fisheries legislation. Schedules 2 and 3 detail amendments to existing statutes and statutory instruments, which ensure that references to the central and regional fisheries boards are appropriately changed. Schedule 4 sets out procedures on the protection of whistleblowers. Schedules 5 and 6 restate the Fifth Schedule to the Fisheries Act 1980 and the Schedule to the Fisheries (Amendment) Act 2000 respectively. The Bill is an important measure in delivering new management structures for our inland fisheries resource. We need to equip inland fisheries management for the challenges of the future but at a time of public sector reform. I am determined that every opportunity must be availed of to effect economies and attain efficiencies from within the system to deliver further value for money against the significant Exchequer investment in this resource. That said, I want to safeguard the inland fisheries resource in the face of significant upheaval caused by demands of contemporary 21st century society for spatial development and economic progress, past excesses in exploitation of stocks and impending climate change factors. I take the opportunity to put on the record of the House my appreciation for all of those who have served on the existing boards and for their dedication and commitment to our national resource. I am sure they will continue to play a valuable role and I know that we all share the best interests for the future of the sector. Delivery of the new structures is achievable by the target date of 1 July and I hope Members will be supportive of this legislation which is required to facilitate the significant changes for the management of the sector.

Senator Joe O’Reilly: I welcome the Minister and record my appreciation for the courtesy of his officials who are present in arranging a helpful briefing prior to today’s meeting. It bears repetition that our inland rivers and lakes are an enormous resource for this country in terms of our own use, recreational enjoyment and quality of life but also in terms of our tourism product and the economy. Rivers and lakes occupy 2% of our landmass and they are a significant resource which should be treated with respect and care. They should be available for the full enjoyment of our people and as a tourism resource. Sea angling, which comes within the terms of reference of the legislation, is of equal importance to tourism and has greater potential than is being currently realised. Our sea angling product needs further development. 29 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

[Senator Joe O’Reilly.] The 2005 Farrell Grant Sparks review of our resources in this area estimated that angling- related tourism and the commercial salmon fishing element of rivers and lakes had a value of €19.1 million to the economy. That is significant and its management must be of great importance. It is reasonable that after 30 years we would review the structures. Inland Fisheries Ireland will replace the seven regional fisheries boards, the National Salmon Commission and the fisheries co-operative societies. The legislation will amend and update the Fisheries Acts 1959 to 2007. The Bill also updates the penalties. I support the move to bring the penalties into line with the consumer price index. For them to have any effect, they should have a reasonable punitive dimension. Although the Minister stopped short of estimating the savings accruing from rationalisation I understand, based on various sources and opinions, that a saving to the Exchequer in the region of €300,000 per annum should be realised. Of course this is to be welcomed. It might seem small money in the overall context, but if we take the approach that every sum is small money, we will never realise any savings. This is an important dimension. My party is strongly in favour of reducing the number of quangos, and the duplication of bodies and their functions which results in additional costs and a lack of co-ordination and coherence. Those of us who have served in local government or in politics at any level will be aware there are so many bodies doing the same thing that one does not know what the other is doing. The country is awash with them. We are not quite as bad as Greece but that is not something to be happy about. We need to deal with this. On that basis, I have no problem supporting the reduction in the number of quangos. This is very much consistent with a point we have been arguing consistently. Our spokesperson in this area, Deputy Leo Varadkar, has been campaigning consistently at Oireachtas level and beyond for the rationalisation of quangos. I spoke today to people from the fisheries sector. One difficulty with the current fisheries boards is that regions can act independently. There can be a lack of co-ordination. The west could be doing one thing while the east could be doing something different. The bodies have tended to be unwieldy. With 23 members, the structure was a bit cumbersome and big. The lack of co-ordination between individual fisheries boards did not represent the best modus vivendi or way to proceed. It would be remiss of me not to say there are many outstanding people on local and regional fisheries boards. They have a passion for fishing and love of the environment and the amateur status of fishing. They have a commitment to the country, tourism and a quality outdoor way of life. To besmirch them in any way would be wrong. Their commitment cannot be understated or under-regarded. Nonetheless, that does not suggest we should not have reform. The functions of the new inland fisheries body will include the protection, management and development of freshwater fisheries, the management of stocks and sea angling, and marketing. There is tremendous and increased potential for the marketing of our sea angling product and of inland fisheries on rivers and lakes in terms of their potential for indigenous recreational fishing and tourism. I understand from the industry, by way of anecdote and other means, that there has been a reduction in the number of visitors to Ireland, notably from England, for angling. While there are many contributing factors, it is a source of concern. I gather from guest-house owners that there has been a marked reduction in visitor numbers over recent years. This is a source of concern and it makes it important to have effective marketing and sales, good stock levels, quality water and good fishing opportunities for anglers. 30 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

Access to lakes and rivers is important. This is an issue in rural areas. It is not specifically relevant to the legislation but it does to pertain to it. I ask the Minister to comment on it later during Second Stage. I refer to physical access and issues associated with rights of way. In some areas, the lack of access is a disincentive to fishing on certain lakes and streams. Tragically, flooding has become a huge issue in many parts of the country. The Acting Chair- man, Senator Bradford, would be much more familiar with this than I am in that his area was much more affected than mine, although mine did experience some damage. Flooding has been of extraordinary consequence over the past winter and autumn. It will be necessary for Inland Fisheries Ireland to draw up a plan to cope with flooding nationally. This is not referred to specifically in the legislation, which is regrettable. I ask the Minister of State to comment on the need to put in place a plan to cope with flooding problems. There is a requirement in the legislation that a national inland fisheries forum be established by the new fisheries body. This is welcome. The Opposition parties, specifically Fine Gael, would prefer the terms of reference of the national forum to be set out more specifically and to be more embedded in the legislation. This also applies to the method of appointment to the forum. With regard to the advisory forum, there will be a certain lacuna by virtue of the abolition of the regional fisheries boards. There will be a lack of democratic contact and a lack of bubbling up of the views of anglers and amateur groups on the ground, local tourism interests and communities. However, the forum will provide a means for the bubbling up of opinions, attitudes and ideas to the nine-member board. It is important that there be a local dimension. The Minister made reference to this and said it would be the function of the forum and board to create local structures whereby people can input their views. With regard to the terms of reference of the forum, there should be a very widespread regional dimension. There should be a widespread dimension in terms of the various amateur groups and stakeholders such that they will all be involved in the national forum. The national forum should in some way compensate for what will be lost in the abolition of the regional fisheries boards in terms of local input and control. One can never underestimate the value of local opinions. We would have preferred more clarity in this regard. I welcome the fact the management will be based on the six river basin areas in regard to the water framework directive. When considering the legislation on whistleblowers, our amendment seeking protection for whistleblowers was accepted on Committee Stage in the Dáil. I welcome that as it is necessary. I am happy the joint Oireachtas committee will be making three appointments. I hope the Minister will make his appointments very early and that the appointees will reflect the various regions and strands. I hope he will explain to the committee why the appointees were selected. In making appointments, gender balance will obviously have to be considered, as will regional balance and the views of various interest groups and amateur groups. I ask the Minister of State to ensure those appointments are summarily dealt with, that there is an early rationale for them and that the committee acts with that knowledge. It is important that those facets are included in the legislation. Fine Gael is essentially supportive of the legislation on the grounds that rationalisation must be good. We are concerned that there should be clarity around the democratic input through the national forum. We are concerned, too, that the democratic input should be ensured by the diverse nature of the actual board as well as by a diverse national forum and local consultation. With those qualifications we accept the legislation. I look forward to the Minister of State’s response to those particular points. 31 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

Senator Jim Walsh: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit chun an Bille seo a phlé. I welcome the Minister of State and his officials who have obviously worked hard in preparing this legislation for us. The Bill, while it restates many of the provisions in previous Acts regulating inland fisheries, primarily sets out a new overarching structure, Inland Fisheries Ireland, which takes over the roles of the regional fisheries boards and the Central Fisheries Board. That is a move in the right direction. As a consequence there will be a significant reduction in the number of board members. The Minister of State mentioned 150 board members, with 23 in each regional fisheries area. That structure will now be replaced by a board of nine and I acknowledge the Minister of State’s continuing intent to involve the Oireachtas joint committee in the appointment of board members. How well we did in that regard is another question and I shall return to this a little later. None the less, it is now an organisation which the Minister of State indicated will have in the order of 400 employees. While some of those will be seasonal workers, most will be employed full-time. The board members will be appointed rather than being elected, so there is a fundamental change in that regard. I concur fully with the sentiments expressed by Senator O’Reilly about the need to reduce the number of quangos, eradicate waste and be much more cost effective in the manner in which we administer the State apparatus. There is great scope for savings in every Department, and perhaps this aspect is not being embraced as energetically as is warranted in the current climate. People working within the service should not fear that, and neither should politicians or those at the top who are paid exceptionally well, such as Secretaries General and their deputies. They should be embracing this challenge and pursuing it in such a way as to restore public confidence in the public services and give pride to those working within them in the knowledge that they are part of lean, energetic, efficient and cost effective organisations. The enthusiasm and dynamic that results from knowing one is part of such an organisation is extremely beneficial for the processes, administration and delivery of services to the public, which ultimately is what public service is all about. I am afraid we have lost sight of some that, so I fully concur with what Senator O’Reilly had to say in that regard. We should be cognisant of the fact that in the past the regional structures provided an element of accountability to the administration of this particular State function. The removal of that will have some implications. I listened with interest to what the Minister of State had to say about the national forum which the new body will be tasked in establishing. It is to be hoped, as Senator O’Reilly said, that will go some way towards addressing the issue. I am mindful, however, of the weaknesses that may materialise. A prime example was the terrible mistake we made with the HSE. I remember arguing strongly at the time both with the Minister and others in Government to the effect that taking away the regional structures completely and having no overview apart from executive accountability at a tier below national level was a mistake. We have seen the consequences of that within the HSE. I am not a tremendous critic of the HSE which by and large does a reasonably good job. However, it could be done much better. The waste certainly runs into hundreds of millions, if not billions, and this could be targeted with a better focused structure. It need not even be at regional level but might, in fact, just concentrate at county level on the delivery of services in hospitals, community care, etc. This obviously is a much smaller operation than the HSE, but basically that area should be watched. I noted the Minister of State’s comments to the effect that the transfer of the staff to the new body would not militate against existing terms and conditions of employment. There is provision within the Bill for that and this is standard within most Bills where quangos are being set up. I have more than a slight reservation in this regard. There are provisions already within European legislation for transfers of undertakings and employees transferring in the private sector on the same terms and conditions. However, once they move to a new organisation there 32 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage. is no inhibition on this body to pursue efficiencies, achieve better organisational structures including, perhaps, rationalisation of personnel and that whole area. We have found that some of the quangos we have established are operating quite inefficiently at a cost well in excess of what is necessary. Many of them will point to this transfer situation in legislation, which appears to go well beyond what is required in the private sector, based on European law. That should be looked at as we cannot afford systems within our public administration that are not cost effective, especially where there are good managers. I appreciate that in many of these bodies there is not good management but where there is, managers should not be inhibited from implementing efficiencies and structures better than what they inherited. In that regard, I note the Minister of State indicated that in these straitened times we need to reduce the cost of public services. The newly streamlined Inland Fisheries Ireland will be better equipped to do this than its predecessor. He believes the new structures will be better able to cope with the required savings in public service numbers applicable across the public service generally. I have raised an issue in the House before in the context of the NAMA legislation, and I am not sure whether the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, or the Minister for Finance was present. I called for a specific statutory obligation in the Bill for the organisation to be lean, effective and cost efficient and to give the best value for money that could be achieved. In other words, there should be a statutory obligation on the chief executive of the organisation to do that. This is important from the viewpoint of the public purse and the cost of running the public service where some 40% of all current expenditure is being passed on for future generations to pay. That situation is not sustainable, even in the medium term, and probably to a very limited degree in the short term. If we include such a provision, we could avoid the recurrence of specific instances such as those that occurred in the recent past, where people in charge of a number of these quangos did not measure up to reasonable expectations of performance but who left with enhanced payments and gratuities in some instances. This is seen by the average person as 5o’clock almost a scandal in itself. However, if there were a statutory obligation, the Mini- ster would be in a position to measure performance and if somebody was failing to meet that statutory obligation, the Minister could dispense with their services without any form of compensation. We must seek to operate on the same basis as the private sector in this regard. Fairness and reasonableness should permeate both the private and public sectors. There is no reason that one sector should be at a disadvantage, or advantage, against the other. I note the cost of running Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI, will be approximately €3 million less than its previous incarnation as a fisheries board. That is good, even though I presume that most of the €3 million will be made up of the reduction in public service salaries and the approximately €300,000 which will be saved by removing the expenses of the various boards that existed previously. It is a step in the right direction and I believe we should move further in that direction. A board will be appointed under this Bill. Obviously, there must be tremendous emphasis on the board having the knowledge to do the job and give direction to Inland Fisher- ies Ireland, but it must also have the commercial expertise to ensure the body operates efficiently. In that regard, I was aghast recently when the new board of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, approved the budget of €7.6 million brought forward by the chief executive. It was only when the Oireachtas joint committee took issue with this imposition on the industry and sought significant reductions in the budget that it was reduced to €5.7 million. There are many bodies under the control of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. Over the next few months the Minister should invite the boards of all those bodies to meet him and he should impose an obligation on them to meet their responsibility in the current economic climate of ensuring that everything possible is done to cut costs. 33 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

[Senator Jim Walsh.]

I will conclude with a few minor points. I welcome many of the statutory obligations imposed on IFI under the Bill. Perhaps there should be a little more emphasis on exploiting the tourism potential. There is great scope in that regard. Admittedly, the body will take a keen interest in clean water and conservation, which are fundamental to attracting tourists. Finally, the monetary penalties to be applied have been brought up to date from 1980 by the application of the consumer price index, CPI. We are making a mistake in this Bill by not including some escalation of the penalties for the future. I understand it is intended to bring forward a consolidation Bill, which might deal with that issue, but it would be no harm to provide in all such Bills for some escalation in penalties. I am not sure if the CPI is appropriate. However, there should be an automatic mechanism to ensure the penalties do not become obsolete or redundant due to inflation and the passage of time.

Senator Feargal Quinn: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh. This Bill is likely to be welcomed by everybody. When speaking before the Minister in this House some time ago on a different topic I quoted a seanfhocal I recalled from my school days: “Éist le fuaim na habhann agus gheobhfaidh tú breac” or listen to the sound of the river if one wishes to catch a fish. With this Bill the Minister has listened not just to the sound of the marketplace but also to the changes that are taking place in production from inland fisheries. Establishing the new board and the forum makes a great deal of sense. On foot of what Senator Walsh said, I just hope the envisaged savings will take place. I was interested to read the report of the Oireachtas joint committee, Diversification of Inland Fisheries in our Communities, and particularly its approach on tourism, recreational angling and other areas, which I am sure influenced the Minister’s team when compiling this Bill. I particularly liked the report’s reference to the Irish weather, where it stated that because we cannot change the weather, we must change to suit the weather. There are changes and challenges and I hope the opportunities we will have with this new legislation will be helpful. This Bill will allow our fisheries sector to operate more effectively and to realise even more of its great potential, which has not always been recognised in the past. The Bill also provides a welcome opportunity to have a wider discussion on fishing in this country. In the supermarket business, my company introduced the world’s first meat trace-back programme in a joint effort with a Trinity College start-up, IdentiGEN. This occurred in 1994 or 1995. At the height of the BSE or mad cow disease scare and the foot and mouth disease outbreak that occurred later, my company’s sales of beef experienced double digit increases. This was due to the effort we put into traceability. Traceability will become increasingly important in the future. I do not know how easy or difficult it is to apply to fish but this type of technology is now taken for granted. Is there now scope to consider “fish to fork” as opposed to farm to fork? Mr. Charles Clover of The Daily Telegraph has set up a very interesting website, fish2fork.co.uk, with a ratings system to encourage restaurants and consumers to make informed choices. He refers to some fish that are scarce, and I assume he is referring not just to inland fish but also sea fish. He says that bluefin tuna, for example, should not be served at all. The well known chef, Jamie Oliver, has removed bluefin tuna from his menus and recipes, and some of the big restaurants in the UK have had second thoughts about serving it. I am not suggesting that bluefin tuna is likely to be found in the rivers of Ireland but this is an example of what is happening in this area. Can Irish restaurants follow a similar example? Can we encourage the Irish customer to eat local fish produce and encourage restaurants to serve it? Do they need to be pushed to do it? I believe it is more likely they can be pulled if there is consumer demand, and perhaps we can do something in that regard. 34 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

Is it ethical to keep eating farmed salmon, given that many salmon farms have earned criticism for damaging fragile coastal areas, polluting waterways with waste and antibiotics and spreading parasites to native fish? Penned salmon also frequently escape, where they breed with wild populations and dilute their genes. The fish meal fed to farmed salmon has been shown to be contaminated with toxic chemicals such as PCBs, which can lead to unsafe levels in the meat, and producing the feed can result in over-fishing. Do people know that in the wild, salmon feed on deep ocean krill and other small fish that are generally not eaten by humans? Farmed salmon, on the other hand, are fed processed anchovies, sardines and herring. I only learned this recently. It takes 2kg to 4kg of wild-caught fish to produce 1kg of salmon. There- fore, it takes hundreds of wild fish to produce one wild salmon. The Target Corporation is a big American supermarket group. It is probably the second largest retail company in the US after Wal-Mart. Target has become the first leading US food retailer to stop selling farmed salmon in its stores, citing the negative impact of salmon farming on the environment. It has eliminated all farmed salmon from its fresh, frozen and smoked seafood offerings in its hundreds of stores in the US. Leading US retailers, including Target’s main rivals, Wal-Mart and Whole Foods, the natural and organic foods supermarket which is highly recognised, have started to pay more attention in recent years to the sustainability of seafood purchasing.

Senator Donie Cassidy: I propose a suspension of the sitting, as the Minister of State is urgently required in the Dáil. I apologise to Senator Quinn.

Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Bradford): Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 5.10 p.m. and resumed at 5.30 p.m.

Senator Feargal Quinn: Wal-Mart plans to continue selling farmed fish but has said it will eventually source all of its wild caught seafood from fisheries certified as sustainable by the US Marine Stewardship Council. A positive development in Ireland comes from Ocean Harvest Technology. This Galway- based company has developed a product called OceanFeed to replace the synthetic additives currently used in commercial salmon feed. It is being hailed as a major breakthrough on product quality and environmental benefit for the €6 billion farmed salmon industry. It is believed that OceanFeed will be a key ingredient in helping to make the industry more environmentally and financially sustainable. We also have to ask hard questions in other areas. Given that some fishmongers are arguing that cod stocks have recovered by approximately 5%, should we permit cod fishing around Ireland or wait until cod stocks recover much more before we even consider cod fishing again? I acknowledge cod is a sea fish but I am using it as an example of the trend in sustainability. One notable company in Cork uses very large and broad nets to let smaller fish escape. This company is obviously progressive in its thinking but there are other stories of fishermen who still catch everything possible. Why is this still happening and how do we placate faddish West- ern tastes while making fishing sustainable? It has been reported that a new and dangerous non-native invasive plant called creeping water-primrose has been confirmed by the central and regional fisheries boards as being present in a pond in County Kerry. This is the first time the plant has been recorded in Ireland. A native of South America and some US states, creeping water-primrose is a water-based herb with deep roots and tough stems which form dense mats strong enough to impede the passage of boats and prevent angling, swimming and other water-based recreational activities. It is believed that once established it will compete with native plants and result in damage to the 35 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

[Senator Feargal Quinn.] native habitat. Its presence can also lead to a reduction in dissolved oxygen levels in the water and under certain conditions may adversely affect fish stocks. Dr. Joe Caffrey, a senior research scientist with the Central Fisheries Board, has stated:

If this invasive species were to spread throughout Ireland, the economic and ecological cost to the country would be too great to quantify... It is a cause of concern that many of these non-native invasive species can be purchased from retail outlets nationwide. However, legislation will soon make it illegal to import or sell such highly invasive species and this development is to be welcomed.

I ask when such legislation is due to come before us and how the establishment of inland fisheries Ireland can help us to fight invasive species which are so damaging to the water life and the environment in general. This Bill is worthy of our consideration and support. I hope as we scrutinise it we amend areas we identify as in need of improvement.

Senator Niall Ó Brolcháin: Given that the current structure has been in place for 30 years, it is appropriate that we examine it afresh. It is welcome, therefore, that the Inland Fisheries Bill 2009 has come before us for our consideration. However, while it contains a number of positive measures, I am concerned as a Senator from Galway that we might lose the local focus which has developed over the years. Whenever we replace existing regional bodies, such as health boards, with national bodies, we create greater efficiencies through central administration at the risk of losing local knowledge which has been built up over many years. The habitats directive and the water frameworks directive are substantial pieces of European legislation. Having looked at the European legislation, the habitats directive and the water framework directive, in particular, are fairly substantial pieces of legislation, and this Bill looks at implementing those. I had the great honour of being vice-chair of the Western River Basin District Project — that is quite a mouthful but there are river basin district projects right around the country — and I certainly welcome the section of the Bill which looks at implementing the structures around the logical geographical areas of the river basin districts. That is an innovative way of looking at water. It is correct that the river basin districts cut across geographical boundaries. Fish do not obey national boundaries and borders. They just do what they have been doing since time immemorial. Fish just swim where they feel like it; they do not pay attention to passports etc. Therefore, the way matters are being structured in the Bill is the correct way to do it. This Bill looks at the area of conservation. Senator Quinn mentioned invasive species. As I know from my past experience, water is one of the key attributes of the health of an ecology, an economy and a society. Water is absolutely crucial to our future in this country. Tradition- ally, we have thought of ourselves as having extremely good, healthy water but on many occasions the reality has proved to be quite different. We must work hard to ensure our water quality is up to the standards we need and expect. Having good quality clean water in future will be one of our greatest assets. This country’s wealth can definitely be determined by having good quality food, good quality water and good locally produced energy. Those are the areas that will underpin future economic wealth and the future environmental health of our society. Luckily, due to the lack of over population, we have a fairly pristine environment in terms of water. As people point out, we have a great deal of water — much water certainly comes out of the sky in the west from time to time. 36 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

We have tended to take water for granted. Having spoken to many fishermen around Ireland they, in most cases, are great conservationists. The health of our rivers and lakes is a great measure of the health of our environment. It is to some extent the proverbial canary in the mine shaft. My father remembers looking as a young fellow over the Salmon Weir Bridge in Galway and seeing endless salmon ready to swim up the river. A few years ago I had the great privilege of seeing something similar, but the fact is that the salmon stocks have decreased considerably, as have many other fishing stocks in the country, and a significant amount of management needs to take place to ensure we have the high quality of fishing stocks that we need. Clearly, there are issues with fish farms, and the way fish farming practices and our management of water practices are carried forward. I put forward a view a number of years ago that, in the case of our rivers and lakes — Lough Corrib would be the area that I have much understanding of — we need to be careful about building in their proximity, how we manage the catchment areas and how we manage the local environment, and this Bill is largely putting forward a framework for dealing with such issues. However, a number of years ago we in Galway city had a problem with cryptosporidium in the water. There is still much cryptosporidium in Lough Corrib. There is still an enormous amount of pollution going into the lakes and rivers around the country. We rely on water treatment to filter these out but I believe we need to ensure that pollution does not go into the lakes and rivers in the first place. We need to have rivers and lakes which are as pristine as possible. It is, of course, the fisheries by which we can judge the health and quality of the ecosystems in the lakes. Senator Quinn spoke of invasive species. Lagrosiphon major is a significant problem in Galway. It is a pond weed which does not have any natural enemies and it can take over our lakes and rivers. The Minister needs to look at how we can save the habitats of the lakes so that invasive species do not destroy them. Finally, I will mention something which I always find quite extraordinary. The pearl mussels in Lough Corrib and around the country are disappearing one by one. Zebra mussels and other invasive species are taking over our lakes. The pearl mussels are the longest living species in this country. They live to over 150 years. Nobody lives as long as pearl mussels. There are pearl mussels alive today which were there before this country became a republic. It is quite extraordinary that we have such species but, unfortunately, their conservation is not going well. The conservation aspect needs to be ramped up because the lakes and rivers of our country are a national treasure. This is a good Bill and I hope it does the job of keeping our country clean.

Senator Michael McCarthy: I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important Bill and also welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, and his officials. This Bill has been expected. It has been a long time on the horizon and it has arrived at last. Looking over the debate pack compiled for us by the library and research team, which was quite informative and well researched, I noted some interesting exchanges and contributions made in the Dáil during the last term. I will refer to a couple of those before I conclude because they are certainly worth reflecting on at this time. In the absence of a crystal ball in the political sphere, it is always amazing when one makes a comment in Opposition and then become a Minister. One wonders whether the philosophy underpinning one’s contribution to this issue is still as strong as it was on that occasion. One point I want to make about the Bill in its entirety is about the area of fisheries, marine, the management of waterways, coastal communities and coastal economies. There is a considerable level of fragmentation in the way we handle fisheries and marine issues. In his contribution, 37 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

[Senator Michael McCarthy.] for example, the Minister stated the Department has overall policy responsibility for the conservation, management, regulation and development of the inland fisheries resource, but went on to mention that other agencies such as the Marine Institute, the Loughs Agency, Bord lascaigh Mhara and the ESB also play an important role. In terms of Departments, the Depart- ments of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and Agriculture, Food and Fisheries are involved. There are a significant amount of stakeholders involved at a strategy level, and that is not helpful. In terms of an overall marine strategy, in terms of having one Department, one Minister and a co-ordinated comprehensive approach to all the issues contained in this and all the issues and responsibilities that are also being handled by other Departments, it is not helpful in the political context, or in the economic context given the climate we are currently experiencing, that there is so much fragmentation about an area that is so rich and could be used to reboot certain sections of the economy. In my contribution at the Labour Party conference in Galway over the weekend, I stated that for every one job created at sea, 1.2 jobs are created on land. This kind of evidence is coming from organisations such as the ESRI which states, on its multiplier, that every €1 generated in a seafood company generates €4.60 in the local economy. It is one of those areas where, if we apply a co-ordinated comprehensive strategic approach, we can look at such matters and reboot the local economy providing jobs and a much needed lift to areas dependent on small indigenous industry to survive. As the Minister will be aware, there are many communities that depend largely on such seasonal industries, which are small but very important in terms of coastal and rural economies. There is a number of points I want to make on the restructuring process. The functions of the new authority will be largely based on those of the existing central and regional fisheries boards. The new authority will, however, establish and manage a national inland fisheries forum, the deliberations of which will provide a stakeholder input. How strong will that input be? The Minister spoke about extending the involvement of stakeholders being the philosophy that underpinned the organisation. Will this be enshrined in law? Provision is made for the composition of the authority and the method of appointment of members to it, including criteria to be met by potential appointees. Provision is also made for the election of a staff representative to the authority. Has there been extensive consultation with the workers and unions involved? How will their terms and conditions of employment be protected in the move to the new authority? Will the embargo on recruitment in the public service impact on the authority’s staffing requirements? What is the extent of the staffing requirements of the new structure? Has a root and branch analysis of this aspect been made? Is there a hard figure for how much the restructuring will save the Exchequer? The Minister claims it will lead to a saving of €300,000 per annum. Where will such savings emerge? Every Member is agreed on the need for more efficient and effective management of inland fisheries resources and more integrated policy formulation. Assurance was given by the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, that the headquarters of the north-west fisheries board would remain open in Ballina, County Mayo. Will buildings for the authority be leased? Will extra resources be made available to cover the costs of meeting the authority’s accommodation needs? Regard- ing accountability, who in the Department is in charge of this aspect of the plan? There must be an element of value for money in this regard. How extensive was the Minister’s consultations with the chief executive officers of the various fisheries boards? How much of this shaped the legislation? The chief executive officers would have had strong local knowledge of the issues affecting their fisheries, as well as knowing the workings of their organisations. I assume the Department’s objective is to prevent creating another authority lsuch as the Health Service Executive which in 2000 was to cure all the ills 38 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage. of the health board structure but which instead has become a bureaucratic mess, requiring much money to sustain it and lacking accountability and transparency. Before the HSE, the health board structure had a local decision-making element to it. Now it is centralised; appli- cations for the over-70s medical card being handled in Finglas, Dublin, is one example. Such a move removes the local element from the process, as well as the influence of local elected representatives. It is unhealthy for democracy, makes the job of a public representative more difficult and does not augur well in creating new agencies. I hope the Minister and his Depart- ment will avoid a repeat of this with the new Inland Fisheries Authority. Greater investment is needed in coastal communities. What role will those with the commercial resources and opportunity to invest in such communities have in fisheries policy formulation? Will a group be set up to monitor the establishment of the authority and ensure value for money and accountability in the process? What power would such a group have, if it were in place, to enforce obligations on the new authority? The last thing we need is for the new authority to be established, given extra powers and allowed set off into the sunset 6o’clock only to discover later that it was not such a success as originally envisaged. Who will be accountable to the Houses of the Oireachtas for the workings of the authority? When a Member tables questions to a Minister, say the Minister for Health and Children, on a health matter, very often he or she will be informed it comes within the HSE’s jurisdiction, not the Minister’s. We must remember the role of a public representative is being consistently undermined by the creation of quangos. We must ensure it does not happen with the proposed Inland Fisheries Authority. The postponement of the elections to the fisheries boards was once described by a Member of the Lower House as a cowardly act. It is a turn of political fortune that this Member is now the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. I am sure Deputy Ryan is as glad as we are to see the conclusion of this business with this legislation.

Senator Martin Brady: Coming from a county which has a lake for every day of the year, I know well how fishing is linked with tourism. In recent years, however, fishing tourism in County Cavan has been in decline. We used to have many visiting fishermen, mainly from Britain but also from Germany, Holland and France, who generated much revenue for the local economy. One reason behind this decline was insufficient fish stocks due to pillaging through netting and lining, often in the middle of the night, that led to the cleaning out of rivers and lakes. Senator McCarthy referred to the costs that would accrue from this restructuring exercise, while putting the necessary resources in place to ensure fisheries regulations were implemented. Recently in Virginia, County Cavan, up to six Garda squad cars had to be used to seize bags of fish taken from the local lake by fishermen, highlighting the lack of resources available to the Central Fisheries Board. We have not got the tourism boards to promote fishing as a sport in Ireland. I raised the issue previously at other venues but nothing was done about it. In addition, we should have more control over fishing clubs. There are many fishing clubs which have their own rules and regulations to allow them do their own thing. That must be examined. We must examine also some of the fishing tackle shops that are selling not just fishing bait but animal snares and so on as well, which I believe are illegal and cruel. Those are important issues. 39 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

[Senator Martin Brady.]

Another area we must examine is fish farms. We have a perch farm in Cavan. The people involved run a good show but they are not getting a sufficient number of grants to keep that farm on the road. Many people have never heard of perch and some ask what it is like to eat. Perch is on most menus on the Continent, as is pike. One of the main items on the menu on cruise liners is perch. I would like to see those farms being assisted in whatever way we can. Overall, it is a good idea to have one group in control rather than the way it is currently but, as Senator McCarthy said, we must now promote fishing as an industry. That is important. Much revenue could be generated from that apart from the savings we are talking about in staffing and so on.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, Deputy Mary Alexandra White, go dtí an Teach. As Senator Brady rightly said, fishing is linked to tourism and we hope this Bill will act as a catalyst to entice fishermen and women back to Ireland. Senator O’Reilly made that point also in his fine contribution. The purpose of the Bill is to restore the inland fisheries sector. That must be its purpose but in his contribution the Minister spoke about the status quo and change. Listening to his contribution did not give me much confidence in that regard. I hope the Minister and his Department, which has overall responsibility for this area, will work with the different agencies and stakeholders because it is important we assist local residents, promote tourism and protect fish stock. The restructuring of the inland fishery sector is to be welcomed. The savings of €300,000 per annum should not be ignored. They are significant. Yet again, the Green Party and Fianna Fáil have shown a willingness to adopt and embrace Fine Gael policy on the abolition of quangos and the amalgamation of different sectors to provide a better service to the people. I commend them on that. I note in the explanatory memorandum and the excellent resource pack that there is a reference to a strong regional presence. The main thrust of my contribution is about the need to address the problem of flooding, especially in regard to the upkeep and maintenance of our rivers and river banks. Specifically I will address the issue of dredging and de-silting of our rivers. I appreciate that there are different viewpoints on the issue of the height of the river and the level of silt but it is time we formulated a clear policy on flood relief programmes and this new body should work in co-operation with the Office of Public Works, the county councils and other regional authorities where necessary. I refer to what happened in Cork last November in the area of Ballinhassig, and particularly in the area of Tullig Beg, where I along with my Oireachtas colleagues met residents who have been severely affected by flooding. A small group of people in Ballinhassig, on the edge of Cork city, have been affected by flooding on the Owenabue river. What we have seen is the accumulation of silt on the river making it virtually impossible for the water levels we experienced to be allowed to flow. As a result we have had flooding causing people to be discom- moded from their homes, and in some cases they have not yet been able to return. We then have the ignominy for the residents in that the Minister with responsibility for the OPW did not include their specific request in the announcement of flood relief works. That is unfair to those families and sends out the wrong message. I accept that inland fisheries are a tremendous natural resource of which we should be mindful but we must also look after residents who are affected by flooding. I appeal to the Minister, Deputy Mansergh, who I regret had to leave the Chamber, to revisit this issue because 40 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage. we have competition in terms of how best to serve local communities. Some people say we should not de-silt or dredge rivers while others say we should do that. I note there is no reference in the functions of the Bill to the role of the new inland fisheries authority regarding dredging and maintenance of our river beds and banks. If I have missed it the officials might advise the Minister of State, Deputy White, when replying to the debate. I hope she would ask the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, to ensure the flood prevention and relief works in the Ballinhassig area through Tullig Beg, where there is a small pocket of residents affected by flooding, can be addressed through this new body. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, makes great virtue of the fact that he is using the committee to appoint members to the board but I am disappointed, and I refer to the Minister’s speech, that under section 12 he does not have confidence in the committee or the public appointments process to appoint the chairperson through public competition. I hoped he would have said that the chairperson of the board would be appointed through the public office commission rather than through the Minister who will have the power to appoint two nominees. I am aware the Green Party has a great record in Government of appointing its own people to boards. Fianna Fáil’s record in that regard is second to none but——

Senator Terry Leyden: The Deputy’s party is not bad at it.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: ——I was hoping that this new Government of a green hue would take meritocracy to a different level. Alas, I am disappointed. To ensure the Green Party gets its way again, the Minister, Deputy Gormley, will appoint two more and therefore we will have, in effect, five Green Party members appointed.

Senator Terry Leyden: Does the Senator remember when Deputy Michael Noonan appointed the people to the health boards the night before he left office?

Senator Jerry Buttimer: I remember when the Senator’s party abolished them, and the Senator comes to the House every day and calls for them to be brought back.

Senator Paul Bradford: The Senator was sacked by Deputy Micheál Martin.

Senator Terry Leyden: And by the way, we sacked all the Senator’s party’s nominees.

Acting Chairman (Senator Joe O’Reilly): Senator Buttimer, without interruption.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Yes, and look at what has happened since then. The good news is that the Fianna Fáil Party and the Green Party will be sacked by the people at the next general election.

Senator Terry Leyden: The Senator butts in more and more. That is the trouble.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: That is the good news. The Fine Gael Party is in favour of the Bill. It will provide for the creation of a single national authority, which is important. The strong regional presence is imperative in the context of the remarks I made about the flooding, flood relief and flood protection. Common sense must prevail regarding landowners and home owners who have been seriously affected, as the Minister of State, Deputy White, is well aware. Her own town of Carlow has flooded in recent years. I love the line in the Minister’s contribution referring to stakeholders. Can we forget about the word “stakeholders” and talk about home owners, landowners and fishermen and women? 41 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

[Senator Jerry Buttimer.] Let us not call them stakeholders. Let us give them a name and an identity other than stakeholders, which is an anonymous label that looks great in a report but means nothing. I thank the Acting Chairman for his indulgence.

Senator Terry Leyden: I welcome the Minister of State to the House and I wish her every success in her Ministry. I have no doubt she will acquit herself very well using her experience of being an active councillor in Carlow, then being elected to the Dáil and appointed as a Minister of State. It is a great honour and experience to be appointed as a Minister of State. I was appointed three times by the former Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, to the Departments with responsibility for posts and telegraphs, transport, health, and trade and marketing. Each Department provides a great opportunity for a Deputy to serve the State on a full-time basis while continuing work as a Deputy. The additional role is magnificent and I am sure Deputy White has found it very interesting to be briefed by officials. I am also delighted the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, introduced this Bill. Senator Buttimer may not know the history of appointments but when Deputy Michael Noonan was Minister, on the eve of the change of Government he appointed people to health boards and I was removed. In fairness, the current Taoiseach, Deputy Brian Cowen, rectified the situation because it was quite inappropriate. People in Fine Gael should not lecture anyone in Fianna Fáil or the Green Party on appointments because they are past masters at it.

Senator Paul Bradford: Was Senator Leyden not dismissed by the current Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin?

Senator Terry Leyden: That is another day’s work. I was not reappointed; that is a different thing.

Senator Paul Bradford: That is a gentler way of putting it.

Senator Terry Leyden: We will deal with the Bill before us. Bringing together the fisheries boards under one umbrella organisation will lead to greater efficiencies and a better, co- ordinated response in times of disaster, such as last year’s floods, and in streamlining joined- up policy. In section 12, a multidisciplinary approach is taken to recruiting the membership of the board, who are nominated by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I am also heartened to see the qualifications of those appointed are open to scrutiny by the relevant Oireachtas joint committee. This is an innovation. I am not sure why there is no tie-in with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources but no doubt the Minister of State will clarify the situation. The current boards have been served well by their membership. In respect of the Shannon Regional Fisher- ies Board, which covers the area I represent, I commend the appointees and the appointees of the staff associations, especially Mr. Seamus McDermott who served very well as an employee of the Shannon Regional Fisheries Board and as a member of the board. He has been extremely diligent, as has been Ms Chandler-Kennedy, the IFA representative. The only criticism I have of the Shannon Regional Fisheries Board is that it introduced fees and is charging on certain rivers on the Shannon system while no such fees are demanded in nearby areas. The River Suck, River Inny, River Brosna, the Little Brosna River and the River Camlin are subject to charges. The charges are €37 annually, €11 for one day and €19 for 21 days. These charges are punitive, disproportionate and unwarranted and create distortions and 42 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage. obstacles for a community and a region trying to hold on to its tourism industry. There is inconsistency in this regard. One fisheries organisation charges and all others do not. I lived between the River Suck and the Derryhippo river. I regularly meet fishermen who must get these permits and it dissuades them from coming to our area. It is one of the great disadvan- tages to fishermen in our area who can travel to another River Shannon area where there is no charge. One advantage of having a single fisheries board is that it can decide whether to have a charge. I do not recommend these permits. All our rivers run free. It was very difficult to be in government when introducing trout fishing licences in 1989. I remember visiting houses that had signs indicating that canvassers for Fianna Fáil were not welcome because of the permits issue. Some of those totally opposed to trout fishing licences became converts to the idea of these permits. It is interesting how matters change. I raised this issue in November and so am pleased the matter will be tackled by the new national fisheries board. We were told licences were compulsory on the River Suck. German fishermen were told this and were told they could leave the Dunamon area and fish in another area. They decided to terminate their holiday and return to Germany and they have not been seen since. That is not what we want. We want to encourage those who fish to come here. Regarding the Shannon Regional Fisheries Board, the 2007 annual report of Central Fisheries Board states that in partnership with the local authorities and as part of the Fáilte Ireland national development plan angling initiative, a number of infrastructural improvements were completed across the region. Projects included car parking facilities in County Roscommon, an access road, a car park, and disabled angling stands in Westmeath. These were very welcome in a location near Dunamon Castle, which is the leisure centre connected to the Irish Wheelchair Association. The fisheries board created fishing stands that are particularly suited to those in wheelchairs and set up toilets and other facilities. I compliment the Shannon Regional Fisheries Board on this work. It possibly used some of the money raised through the permit system but nevertheless there should be a level playing pitch to encourage those who fish to come to the country. It is a great industry and is great for tourism. This will be a productive Bill and I wish the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, success in its passage.

Senator Paul Bradford: I did not intend to speak on this legislation but listening to contributions of my colleagues on both sides of the House, I wish to support most of what I have heard. I wish the Minister well in the passage of this legislation in the Seanad and I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy White, to the House. I listened with interest to the comments of the previous speaker. I recall the division in the country in 1988 and 1989 when rod licences hit the political trail. The Minister at the time was Brendan Daly and it seemed innocuous legislation but caused major political turmoil and division across communities. I am sure we will not have such difficulty on this occasion but any time since 1989 that we have dealt with legislation governing inland fisheries, angling and fishermen, we reflect on the division of 1988 and 1989. The legislation is welcome and the concept of a single authority or agency taking control and slimming down the structures in place is the realistic and difficult policy we must enact if we are to turn around the fortunes of this country. The saving from the rationalisation process will not be significant. A figure of €300,000 or €400,000 was mentioned. Across all Departments and a plethora of State boards and bodies there must be a level of investigation leading to amalgamation and an end to the quango system, even though it is difficult for all of us. I am a Member of these Houses long enough to know that all political parties appoint people to 43 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

[Senator Paul Bradford.] boards and agencies when they have the opportunity to do so, but we are now in a new political dispensation and we must streamline and slim down the functions of the State and Government agencies in so far as we can. It is to be hoped this agency, Inland Fisheries Ireland, can take charge of the work and the role previously undertaken by various fisheries boards. It is fair to say the vast majority of people who served on these boards did their absolute best to conduct business in an effective fashion. However, given Ireland’s sad new economic state we need to rationalise where we can and this legislation is a positive step in this regard. The role of the new agency is significant. It will have responsibility for and charge of angling in particular, which is a major task. It is often forgotten that angling rather than football, rugby, hurling, soccer or equine activities is the most popular past-time not alone across this country or the Continent but worldwide. My colleague Senator Phelan has just asked me how I know this. I know this from experience. There exists a huge opportunity for us to develop further the angling industry here which as stated by Senator Brady could lead to a major increase in tourism numbers. We heard earlier from Senator McCarthy figures in regard to the number of jobs that could stem from fisheries, in particular inland fisheries. The entire package with which this legislation deals is significant. This will not be the most important legislation enacted in the Oireachtas this month or even this year but it is significant and can play its part in developing our angling industry to the maximum possible degree, building on our tourism numbers and improving our waterways and environment. The Bill deals with an interesting combination of matters. I speak not as an expert but as a lay person. I wish the Minister of State, Deputy Mary White, and her colleague, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, well in having this legislation enacted. I believe it is the correct response to the situation. It is hoped the Minister will respond favourably to the proposed amendments from Senator O’Reilly and this side of the House.

Senator John Paul Phelan: I wish to share time with Senator McFadden.

An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator John Paul Phelan: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Mary White. This is the first occasion since her elevation to the position of ministerial office that I have had an opportunity in this Chamber to congratulate her. Many people in Carlow and Kilkenny are glad to have a representative who is Minister of State in Government. I wish her well in her endeavours in what is a difficult time to be in Government. I wish to speak about a couple of issues in the context of this Bill. I have never been a member of any of the regional fisheries boards and have no difficulty with the genesis of this Bill, namely, the streamlining of the inland fisheries authorities into one body, which is to be welcomed. I have in my time had limited experience in dealing with the fisheries boards. However, I would like to raise a number of issues in regard to our rivers and this Bill presents me with an opportune time to do so. The Minister of State will be as familiar as I with the rivers in the south eastern region, namely, the Barrow, Nore and Suir. Senator Bradford and other speakers referred to the potential for tourism on the rivers, in particular angling. However, a question arises in regard to maintenance of the rivers. I am sure the Minister of State is as aware as I am of what happens on a regular basis at certain times of the year in Carlow and Kilkenny by way of flooding in the towns and villages located on the banks of the rivers there. I accept there is an overlap in this regard in terms of the Office of Public Works 44 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage. being largely responsible for the maintenance of rivers and alleviating flooding on the rivers in the south eastern region and across the country. I commend the angling clubs as I am aware that most of the work by way of maintenance on the lower reaches of the River Nore is carried out by anglers. They are the ones who through their angling clubs put in the effort in terms of maintaining the river. I urge the Government, Office of Public Works and new inland fisheries board to do more in terms of action to alleviate flooding, the maintenance of river banks and, desilting of rivers. It is rare these days that rivers are cleaned in that sense. I raised this issue with a number of people a few months ago when my office in Thomastown in Kilkenny was for the first time since I took occupancy of it flooded. It was the worst flooding since the 1960s. Many people who live in the area believe this was partly due to the fact there has been little maintenance of the river in terms of desilting, keeping the banks clear and unblocking the eyes of arches of bridges that have become blocked over time and to a change in the structure of the banks. In other words, the river channel has moved and no action has been taken by the relevant authorities to alleviate the possibility of future flooding. I accept this issue may be a little tangential to the Second Stage debate of this Bill but I wanted to place on the record that I and many people who live in river valleys and operate in towns prone to flooding, such as Graiguenamanagh, Thomastown, Inistioge and Carlow are not happy that enough is being done to alleviate the risk of flooding. For whatever reason, there has been a change in the volume of rainfall at particular times of the year and flooding which would previously have occurred once every ten, 12 or 20 years now occurs a couple of times a year. The water has been out on the quays at Thomastown twice during the past 12 months. I am sure the same has happened in many other parts of the country. There needs to be a body of work carried out by the relevant authorities to ensure flooding is alleviated and that the flooding of people’s business premises and homes does not continue into the future. I support and welcome the thrust of the legislation which seeks to streamline a duplicated service across the country. I would like to see a serious effort made by Government and the relevant authorities to clean up our rivers and to make them a more valuable natural asset in terms of attracting tourism to many parts of the country.

Senator Nicky McFadden: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Haughey. I come from Athlone which is in the centre of Ireland. We, like Senator Phelan and the people of Kilkenny, have had massive trouble with flooding. I warmly welcome any restructuring and reorganising of the management of our rivers. However, I am concerned about whether this body will have autonomy and if the OPW will have control over the new board. I recently visited the Cathaoirleach’s part of the country, namely, Meelick, Victoria Lock and the Cut. I was quite shocked because the flood had reached the Athlone area. Of the 20 gates at the Cut, seven were closed. As Senator Phelan said, trees, silt and so on are in our rivers. Who or what will be responsible for cleaning them out? I was a teenager in the 1980s when the mainstay of tourism in the Athlone area was German and English fishermen. They fished from the bank but can no longer do so because of siltation. They have to wade out very far and it is not safe because the river is not steady. It has destroyed that element of the tourism industry. I also have concerns that €40 million has been provided for river basin management projects, yet more consultants will be employed. I question what they will do. If one comes from an area such as where I and the Cathaoirleach come from, it is very obvious what needs to be done. If the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural 45 Inland Fisheries Bill 20 April 2010. 2009: Second Stage.

[Senator Nicky McFadden.] Resources was in touch with the people and locally it would find what needs to be done is very clear. I ask that there be consultation with the local people. I warmly welcome the tidying up of fisheries and the fact that the trout and course fishing body has been abolished. It is not a bad thing. I ask that fishermen be consulted and connected with what is going on and how money is being spent. Most importantly, the OPW should be allowed to be the co-ordinating body of our rivers and the fisheries body should listen to what the OPW is saying about flooding because ultimately it is the person, household and farmer who should be considered over everything else.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Seán Haughey): Iam delighted to conclude the Second Stage debate in the Seanad and thank the Members of the House who contributed to the debate on the Bill and for their positive responses. I also thank the Senators for their agreement that this is an important Bill. Its main objective is to establish a single body, Inland Fisheries Ireland, which will be charged with the protection and conservation of our inland fisheries resource. One must remember that freshwater lakes cover approximately 2% of the area of the State. There are also in the region of 13,840 km of main channel rivers. These freshwater systems are inhabited by a variety of fish species, including game species such as salmon, sea and brown trout and course species such as pike and bream. I will respond to some of the points raised by Senators during the course of this debate. Senator O’Reilly noted the cost savings which will result from the restructuring. The most visible and immediate savings will occur as a result of the reduction in administrative and associated costs of servicing eight separate boards and related board expenses which are estimated to be in the region of €300,000 per annum. In addition to financial savings, the new model will combine and thus ensure the better use of existing resources and deliver improved value for money management of the State’s resource. The McCarthy report identified the potential for savings of approximately €4 million from the restructuring. While the report does not set out a detailed regime for bringing about such savings, the new body will have a clear focus on efficiency and value for money from the outset. I draw the attention of Senators Walsh and McCarthy to the obligations contained in the Bill requiring the chief executive officer to be accountable for the economy and efficiency of the new body in its use of its resources. On stakeholder input, I remind Senators O’Reilly and McCarthy that in recognition of the need for and value of stakeholder participation in the sector, provision has been made in section 7 for the establishment of a national inland fisheries forum. I see it as the vehicle by which local stakeholders will be facilitated to provide input to the work of Inland Fisheries Ireland. I assure Senator Ó Brolcháin that I expect the board of Inland Fisheries Ireland to establish effective communication channels to involve local interests and influence policies and how they are implemented at local level. The terms of reference for the forum are being drafted and an understanding has been given to circulate them to members of the Oireachtas committee as soon as they are available. The Bill is an important measure in delivering new management structures for the inland fisheries resource. Inland fisheries management must be equipped for the challenges of the future at a time of public sector reform. The vision for Inland Fisheries Ireland is to have a lean, effective and efficient inland fisheries organisation, governed on a national basis with a strong and responsive local presence. I want to ensure the inland fisheries resource is safe- guarded in the face of the significant challenges ahead. Inland Fisheries Ireland can deliver that. 46 Dental 20 April 2010. Services

I reiterate my appreciation for all those who have served on the existing boards for their dedication and commitment to our national resource and our shared interest for the successful future of the sector. I welcome the constructive manner in which this Second Stage debate has been approached and thank all Senators for their contributions.

An Cathaoirleach: I thank the Minister of State.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 27 April 2010.

An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to sit again?

Senator Martin Brady: At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

Adjournment Matters.

————

Dental Services Senator Paudie Coffey: Before I speak to the Adjournment matter I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Seán Connick, to the House. It is my first opportunity to congratulate him publicly on his elevation to Minister of State and I wish him well. He will do his very best for the people of Wexford and the south east and I, as a fellow parliamentarian from the south east, look forward to working with him over the coming years to try to achieve what is best for that region. I raise this matter on the Adjournment because I have heard from quite a few people that there is a lot of concern about the provision of adequate funding for the dental treatment services scheme. I understand more than €63 million was allocated for the previous two years, despite the fact that there has been a large increase in the number of medical card holders. There has been much higher demand for basic dental treatments, such as fillings, root canal treatment and other preventative treatments. My understanding is the HSE has recommended that only emergency treatments can be carried out under the scheme in future owing to the lack of funding. Perhaps the Minister of state can clarify this. Emergency treatments are extractions and antibiotics must be provided. However, no reference is made to preventative treatments such as fillings and root canals. This policy will result in an increase in dental decay, which in turn will lead to increased costs for the health service in the future. People will lose their teeth rather than benefitting from preventative treatments. This will affect many medical card holders and dentists will be put in an unfortunate position. I cannot understand how the HSE or the Minister can ask any dentist in his or her professional capacity to prioritise patients, thereby ignoring the tooth decay being experienced by some patients, and to extract teeth rather than carry out preventative treatment. That would be a retrograde step and it would equate to professional negligence in the extreme if dentists were asked to do this. Medical card holders will suffer most, especially children and special needs patients who find it difficult to access treatment under the current scheme. This is an important matter because tooth decay cannot only be addressed by extracting a tooth. There are consequences if inad- equate provision is made to address tooth decay and oral hygiene. Other more serious health issues can arise if tooth decay is not dealt with at any early stage. Given all the advances made 47 Dental 20 April 2010. Services

[Senator Paudie Coffey.] in dental health, this proposal would be a backward step and we could return to the standards of the 1950s, which would be a sorry outcome. It will also mean there will be increased demand on professional services in our hospitals if people experience complications as a result of tooth decay. This will create backlogs in hospitals and HSE clinics. Will the Minister of State clarify the position on the scheme? People, especially those with medical cards, are concerned that if they cannot access preventative treatment through their dentist, the economy could be further burdened by the need, for example, to provide dentures and to address other serious health issues as a consequence of tooth decay. I hope the Minister of State has good news for medical card holders and he might reassure them that they will be able to access the service they deserve from their local dentist. They have developed good services over many years and by carrying out early prevention measures, they can address further tooth decay while stabilising the dental hygiene of their patients, thus preventing further problems.

Deputy Seán Connick: On behalf of the Minister for Health and Children, I am happy to have the opportunity to address the issue raised by the Senator. I thank him for his kind words at the beginning of his contribution. We worked together on the South-East Regional Authority and I look forward to working with him in the interests of the people of south east over the coming period. The dental treatment service scheme, DTSS, was set up in 1994 after negotiations between the health boards — now the HSE — and the Irish Dental Association. The financial aspects of the scheme are administered by the primary care reimbursement service on behalf of the HSE and it is monitored at local level by principal dental surgeons. The two objectives of the scheme are to improve the oral health of adult medical card holders and to provide dental services to adult medical card holders in a cost effective and equitable manner. The scheme provides a range of basic dental treatments to adults who are medical card holders. The service is offered by 1,419 dentists nationwide who hold a contract with the HSE. The dental treatment is free to the patients, and dentists working under the DTSS are reim- bursed on a fee per item basis. The dental treatments provided under the scheme are split into two categories which are known as above and below the line treatments. Above the line treatment currently includes main treatment items such as examinations, fillings, and extractions. These treatments can be carried out immediately by a participating DTSS dentist. Below the line require prior approval from a HSE principal dental surgeon before they can be carried out by a dentist. They include amputation of roots, protracted periodontal treatment and the provision of dentures. Expenditure on the scheme was approximately €85 million in 2009, which was a substantial increase from the 2008 figure of €63.4 million. Over the past five years expenditure on the scheme has increased by approximately 60%. In view of this increased expenditure and the current position of the public finances, and recognising that health expenditure represents 27% of total public expenditure and is, therefore, of central importance in any strategy to achieve public expenditure savings, it was necessary to consider options to reduce the level of expenditure in the DTSS. This reduction in expenditure reflects the imperative to achieve overall reductions in public expenditure while providing essential health services to patients and the public. The HSE has been requested to examine this issue and forward proposals to the Department that contain DTSS expenditure at the 2008 level. The executive has developed proposals aimed 48 Tax 20 April 2010. Code at containing DTSS expenditure, which the Minister for Health and Children is considering. However, it is important to note that no final decisions have yet been taken on the changes to be made to the DTSS.

Senator Paudie Coffey: I thank the Minister of State for his response. I note no final decision has been taken, which presents a window of opportunity. We must acknowledge the excellent preventative work carried out by dentists on the teeth of medical card holders and I have outlined the benefits of that. The Minister of State said the HSE is examining the issue. I ask him to urge the executive and the Department to negotiate with representatives of patients and dental associations. If cuts are to be made, we should come up with new initiatives to prevent tooth decay at an early age through schools and so on. Will he ask the Minister for Health and Children to ring-fence as much funding as possible to ensure prevention rather than extractions? At the end of the day, if health service costs increase as a consequence of tooth decay, this proposal would be a retrograde step. Will the Minister of State convey that message to the Minister for Health and Children in the interests of medical card holders and in the interest of preventing tooth decay?

Tax Code. Senator Paul Bradford: I welcome the Minister of State. May Day on 1 May is generally celebrated across the world as a day for workers and a day on which work and job creation should be at the top of the political agenda. In this country, unfortunately, on 1 May 2010 the Government will introduce a system of carbon taxation which will cost jobs in rural Ireland and will add to the ever-increasing pressure on the farming community. The introduction of the carbon tax will deliver a further body blow to the hard-pressed agricultural sector. When the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government announced the carbon budget last December, the only sop to rural Ireland and the farming community in particular was that it would be implemented on 1 May this year and there was hope and the expectation that negotiations could take place and a derogation given, especially for those who use agricultural diesel. This matter was raised during the debates on the Finance Bill in both Houses but it remains the position that on 1 May the price of agricultural diesel will be affected by the introduction of the carbon levy. We are told the levy will cost the agriculture sector €12 million annually and the economy approximately €300 million. It will be a body blow to economic competitiveness and to competitiveness in rural Ireland and in the agriculture industry. It is significant that while Ireland is rushing to introduce a carbon tax, the French Government has decided to put the introduction of such a tax on hold until broader agreement is reached on it at European level. At the stroke of a ministerial pen in France, French agriculture and industry will be much more competitive relative to industry in this country. The Minister of State, Deputy Connick, comes from the rural constituency of Wexford. He knows the facts and figures about farming and that agriculture has never been under so much pressure across all its sectors. The tillage sector which has suffered significant income losses in recent years will be strongly hit by the imposition of a carbon tax. The concept of a carbon tax was an easy sell politically for the Government because it was seen as something good from an environmental perspective. All of the measures we introduce must be considered across a range of benchmarks. We should only introduce a carbon tax after serious consideration if it is to add to our cost base, suck in excess of €300 million out of the economy and remove up to €12 million from the agriculture sector. Even at this late stage I 49 Tax 20 April 2010. Code

[Senator Paul Bradford.] hope the Government will be as willing as the French Government to reflect again and consider the wisdom of the introduction of such a tax. We will add to the cost of every litre of agridiesel used the length and breadth of the country. That will impact hugely on the tillage sector and all of the contractors who will be at work during the summer cutting hay and silage. Irish agriculture is under significant pressure and the introduction of a carbon tax will be a tipping point for many farm families and communities. At a time when approximately 500,000 people are out of work, every piece of legislation we enact, every proposal we bring forward and every regulation we introduce should be benchmarked against whether it will add to the jobs or jobless total. Unfortunately, the introduction of the carbon tax will lead to an increase in the jobless total. It will not lead to the creation of one job but its imposition will significantly add to the number of unemployed because it will increase the cost to industry and agriculture and make the economy less competitive. It will add to our spiralling unemployment tally, something on which we must reflect seriously. Everyone in the House and across the political spectrum wants to improve the environment. A considerable number of measures can be put in place to achieve this, but the cost of the carbon levy will impact too severely and negatively on rural areas and farm communities. I appeal, therefore, to the Minister of State and his colleagues to reconsider the introduction of the carbon tax. I hope they will take on board the wise course of action of the French Govern- ment and put the project on hold until more work has been done across the European Union to introduce a more balanced and fair system of carbon taxation.

Deputy Seán Connick: I thank the Senator for raising this matter. I wish to deal for a short time with the issue of climate change and both the European and the national response to what is widely recognised as one of the greatest dilemmas facing mankind. I need not spell out the potential devastation that will ensue for farmers and everyone else should the world not respond in an appropriate way to the need to reduce carbon emissions. Heads of State and Government of the European Union committed to reduce the Union’s collective emissions of greenhouse gases to a level 20% below 1990 emissions levels and they agreed to do so by 2020. An EU burden sharing agreement was drawn up, whereby each member state would adopt an emissions reduction target appropriate to its GDP and capacity to deliver emissions reductions. Under the agreement, Ireland is required to reduce national emissions by 20% compared to 2005 levels by 2020. In the event of a new, international agreement to reduce global emissions, the European Union has further committed to reduce its collective emissions by up to 30% compared to 1990 levels. Each litre of gas oil, whether used in a tractor or a diesel engine car, will generate between 2.7kg and 3.2kg of carbon dioxide. In 2007 greenhouse gas emissions associated with the combustion of diesel oil in the agriculture sector were in excess of 800,000 tonnes of CO2 equivalent. The emissions reductions Ireland has agreed will not be achieved without specific measures being put in place to realise them. The introduction of a carbon tax on fossil fuels is one measure designed to encourage such reductions. The renewed programme for Government emphasised the importance of investment in incentivising the behavioural change that would deliver sustainable development. The programme contained a commitment to introduce a carbon tax in budget 2010. Accordingly, the Finance Bill 2010 introduced carbon taxation of mineral oils. The tax will apply to petrol, autodiesel, kerosene, marked gas oil, liquid petroleum gas, fuel oil and natural gas. These increases which, when VAT is included, amounted to 4.2 cent on a litre of petrol and 4.9 cent 50 Tax 20 April 2010. Code on a litre of diesel arose from the application in budget 2010 of a carbon charge on these fuels € at a rate equivalent to 15 per tonne of CO2 emitted. It should be recognised that the existing excise duty on marked gas oil, also known as green diesel or agricultural diesel is 4.7 cent per litre. This compares to an excise duty rate of 41 cent per litre in the case of autodiesel, almost ten times higher than agricultural diesel. That is a significant concession that must be borne in mind in this debate. In introducing the carbon levy the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government indicated that the principle of carbon pricing was widely accepted as the most effective way to secure emissions reductions. It is the basis of the European Union’s emissions trading scheme which applies to the bigger emitters such as power generators and industrial plants. The aim of the tax is to use the increase in cost as a catalyst to effect behavioural change in consumers and thereby cause a subsequent reduction in emissions associated with their consumption of fossil fuels. The tax is a specific rather than an ad valorem tax levied according to the amount of carbon produced by the consumption of a litre of diesel rather than as a percentage of the retail price. Consequently, in terms of achieving its purpose to reduce emissions, a duty levied on an ad valorem basis would not have been appropriate. While it may appear at face value that the price of agricultural diesel has been increased disproportionately compared to that of autodiesel, owing to the difference in the percentage change in price, this is a function of the fact that agricultural diesel has a lower base value owing to the considerably lower level of excise duty on that product. In terms of the effects on emissions, it is estimated that the carbon levy will reduce emissions in the non-traded sector of the economy by an average of 150,000 tonnes per annum in the period 2008 to 2012. Assuming full implementation of the levy at the rate envisaged, savings in a full year would be of the order of 275,000 tonnes but this saving would not be expected in the first year of implementation. In the case of the agriculture sector, the introduction of the carbon levy on marked gas oil with effect from 1 May will result in an 8.7% increase in its price. While the agriculture sector generally tends to be more resilient to global economic shocks, this has not been the case in the recent economic downturn. The year 2009 was particularly difficult, as a combination of factors such as the global economic downturn, the weakening of sterling against the euro and lower commodity prices impacted negatively on the 7o’clock sector. Dairy and cereal markets were particularly adversely affected by lower commodity prices. Despite these difficulties, the agrifood sector continues to account for a significant proportion of the economy, including 7.1% of gross value added and 7.8% of employment, and is the primary outlet for the produce and output of the country’s 128,000 family farms. The sector exports to 140 markets worldwide. Following the great difficulty in dairy markets last year, prices have improved, but this recovery is fragile. Considerable stocks have been accumulated in EU and US dairy markets and it is very important that these stocks are managed in a way that does not destabilise the recovering market. An internal analysis by my Department of the direct impact of the carbon levy on the agriculture sector suggests the average increase in the cost of production across all farms will be approximately €230 per farm. There is a considerable degree of variability across the various farm systems. That assumes no change in fuel use by farmers. However, the expectation is farmers, like everyone else, will seek to reduce fuel use and, therefore, reduce costs. That said, I fully appreciate that the imposition of the levy places a considerable burden on farmers, contractors and, in particular, tillage farmers. In an ideal world there would not be any need for such measures, but, as we all know, this world is far from ideal. I intend to closely monitor the implementation of the tax with my Government colleagues to ensure it operates as 51 Library 20 April 2010. Services

[Deputy Seán Connick.] intended. I also intend to ensure guidance material to inform farmers of how best they can reduce their on-farm energy use, particularly fossil fuel usage, is provided for the widest possible audience.

Senator Paul Bradford: Most farming families would find it very difficult to accept the figure provided by the Minister of State based on the work of the Department which claims the cost per farm will be approximately €230. For tillage farmers and the thousands of contractors, the additional burden will run to thousands of euro, not hundreds. Even at this late stage, with a view to job creation and maintaining the competitiveness of the economy, including the farming sector, the Minister of State should consider calling on his Government colleagues to reflect and adopt the French wait-and-see approach. I respect his statement that he will monitor the implementation of the tax but on 1 May the additional financial burden on farming families will be very significant. I ask him to make my concerns known to the Ministers for Finance and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. These concerns are shared by every farmer, contractor and rural organisation. At a time when rural Ireland is under severe pressure, this tax could be a tipping point as far as many families are concerned.

Library Services Senator Pearse Doherty: I raise the issue of the public library in my parish of Gaoth Dobhair in County Donegal. I have an association with the library. I borrowed a number of books when I was approximately 11 and one of them was responsible for my ending up in this House. The book inspired me or led me to dig a little deeper into the history of our country. On 23 June last year, the parish of Gaoth Dobhair was subject to flash flooding. The library was housed in the old chapel in an area of historic significance. A river used to run through the area. There was flooding in the chapel in the 1800s and a number of people died in the parish. The river burst its banks as a result of the flash flooding last summer and the whole library was submerged in water. Every single book was damaged and it was a terrible scene. I was present with other public representatives and the county manager, county librarian and staff. We walked through the flooded area in our wellingtons and were trampling on books. Anybody who meets a librarian or somebody who loves books will realise what it is like to stand on books piled four deep. Included were Patrick McGill’s books, some of which were autographed first editions. They were completely ruined and it was heartbreaking. On leaving the old chapel, I turned to the county manager and said this cloud needs to have a silver lining. The silver lining is that there was a project earmarked for Gaoth Dobhair. The construction is nearly completed. One third of the building, the ground floor, has been occupied in recent weeks by the naíonlann, the preschool and play school. The other part of the bottom floor of the project at Aislann Ghaoth Dobhair was supposed to house the library but, because of financial difficulties, the project was put in cold storage. Now that Gaoth Dobhair parish does not have a library and that flooding and other acts of God have damaged and taken away the old library, I believe Aislann Ghaoth Dobhair is the proper place to complete the project. Having spoken to officials in the Department and in the council, I have learned approximately €500,000 in capital funding will be required to complete the area earmarked for the library. I have been in it and walked around it with those responsible for the building. It is a fantastic place. What better place could one locate the library than where there are already preschool children? It is most opportune to have them surrounded by books on the same floor. 52 Library 20 April 2010. Services

I understand an application was made by Donegal County Council as long ago as September. From liaising with officials I understand a decision is imminent. The project will cost approximately €500,000 in capital funding and further funds will be required to restock and refit the facility. There will be a need for co-funding from Donegal County Council. Last week Donegal County Council earmarked in its three-year capital programme co-funding for the project. We hope there will be some good news for the parish of Gaoth Dobhair such that there will be a silver lining in the cloud that destroyed our library on 23 June last year. I hope the Minister of State will have some good news for us.

Deputy Seán Connick: I thank the Senator for raising this matter. I understand Donegal County Council has been in regular contact with the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government on this matter. Donegal County Council operated a small public library in Gaoth Dobhair until it sustained extensive flooding on 23 June 2009. The library was housed in the old chapel in Derrybeg which is owned by the local parish. The council had, prior to the flood, entered into discussions with Údarás na Gaeltachta in regard to the provision of a library as a part of the Aislann Ghaoth Dobhair development at Páirc Ghnó Ghaoth Dobhair. Donegal County Council had not placed Gaoth Dobhair on its priority list for funding which was submitted in 2008. Its priorities were Donegal town, the administrative centre, Ballybofey- Stranorlar and the central library enhancement, Donegal. Unfortunately, it was not possible to allocate funds to Donegal County Council for the Donegal town project under the 2009-10 capital programme owing to the high level of competing demands on the capital funds available. Notably, however, Leabharlann Phobail Ghaoth Dobhair did not feature in Donegal County Council’s stated library development priorities for future consideration by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I understand the council, in correspondence to the Department, has indicated that the opportunity now exists to develop a state-of-the-art facility which will serve as a resource for Gaoth Dobhair and the broader west Donegal Gaeltacht region. It is intended that the ground floor will incorporate a public library, exhibition space and a children’s area with preschool, after- school, family and language supports and other facilities. The second floor will house five to ten business innovation units and the third floor will be available as office accommodation. Part of the attraction of the building to the library service is that most of the children in the parish will use it along with their parents and carers. There is a new outdoor playground just opposite. Branching Out — Future Directions, the policy document that sets out a redefined vision for the public library service, was launched in 2008. One of its main recommendations was for a multi-annual capital programme for public libraries. On foot of this, approval for a two-year capital programme for public libraries from 2009 to 2010 was given in April 2009. I understand the Department hopes to be in a position to announce a new public library capital programme for 2010 and 2011 soon. Based on the Department’s present budget allocations, it is hoped that approximately €9 million will be available to fund library capital projects throughout the country. While I understand the council has not indicated any change to its list of priorities for the capital programme, assistance to Donegal County Council towards capital expenditure on Gaoth Dobhair library is under consideration as part of that programme. The Department must consider any funding provision for Gaoth Dobhair on the basis of the existing allocation rather than on the basis of there being additional or exceptional funding available. 53 Library 20 April 2010. Services

Senator Pearse Doherty: I thank the Minister of State for the response. An announcement will be made very shortly. I have been discussing the matter with departmental and council officials. I understand the council fully supports the need for the library which, as the Minister of State said correctly in his reply, is not just for Gaoth Dobhair but for the wider Gaeltacht region. The proposal fits in well with the Government’s 20-year strategy. I hope there will be a successful outcome to the Department’s considerations.

The Seanad adjourned at 7.10 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 April 2010.