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Da´Il E´Ireann Vol. 638 Wednesday, No. 4 3 October 2007 DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DA´ IL E´ IREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Wednesday, 3 October 2007. Leaders’ Questions ………………………………1369 Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach …………………………………1379 Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 32 ………………1392 Order of Business ………………………………1392 Tackling Crime: Statements ……………………………1402 Visit of New York State Assembly Delegation ……………………1409 Tackling Crime: Statements (resumed) ………………………1409 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food Priority Questions ……………………………1425 Other Questions ……………………………1439 Adjournment Debate Matters ……………………………1455 Tackling Crime: Statements (resumed) ………………………1456 Private Members’ Business Health Services: Motion (resumed) ………………………1510 Adjournment Debate Hospital Services ………………………………1545 General Practitioner Services …………………………1547 Accident and Emergency Services ………………………1550 Garda Deployment ……………………………1552 Questions: Written Answers ……………………………1557 1369 1370 DA´ IL E´ IREANN In recent days we have learned that Monaghan General Hospital will be stripped of further ———— services and will have to suffer the removal of another ward despite recent expenditure. The De´ Ce´adaoin, 3 Deireadh Fo´mhair 2007. Midland Regional Hospital in Mullingar is to cut Wednesday, 3 October 2007. medical day cases by 55 per month. In South Tipperary General Hospital in Clonmel, an ———— operating theatre and six surgical inpatient beds will be lost. Chuaigh an Leas-Cheann Comhairle i gceannas The Government stated clearly this month that ar 10.30 a.m. no patient would suffer because of cutbacks. Meanwhile, Ministers sit in this House and act as ———— if they had no responsibility in the matter, as if the HSE made its decisions at a remove from Paidir. Government. I remind the Taoiseach that hospital consultants have told me, face to face, Prayer. that people are dying at the end of waiting lists because they are not able to get a service which ———— we should provide for them. Is the Taoiseach tell- ing me that he is spending \15 billion on a world Leaders’ Questions. class health service? The Government is unbe- lievable in everything it states, from the Deputy Enda Kenny: We have arrived at a Taoiseach to his Ministers. Can the Taoiseach say stage in this country where whatever this Govern- how the 41,000 patients on waiting lists can have ment states is quite unbelievable, whether on the any confidence in what they hear coming out of subject of recent events or in the form of general the mouths of Ministers of this Government? statements. It is a few years ago since the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Deputies: Hear, hear. Cowen, told us that 32,000 people were on the waiting list. In 2002, the then Minister, Deputy The Taoiseach: I will tell Deputy Kenny some Martin, made a specific Government commit- of the facts about the health service and answer ment that he would end waiting lists in two years. some of his questions. The current Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, said in May this year that the Deputy Eamon Gilmore: Tell him about Beau- HSE would find efficiencies that would not mont Hospital. impact on patients. This is in the context of the Government giving clawbacks of over \100,000 to Deputy Billy Timmins: Has the Taoiseach been people who are able to buy their first house for a in Beaumont Hospital recently? It is not a centre price in excess of \1 million. There are now of excellence. 41,000 persons on the waiting lists of hospitals around the country. The Taoiseach: Some 120,000 people work in The Minister for Health and Children said on the health service as of this morning. 21 September that no patient would suffer because of cutbacks introduced across the coun- Deputy Billy Timmins: The Taoiseach should try. I have met consultant after consultant who check his statistics. has told me that patients die at the end of waiting The Taoiseach: If Fine Gael Members do not lists because services cannot be provided for want to listen, there is no point in me saying them. Patients die, which is a direct contradiction anything. of what the Government has been saying. Every day we hear of more and more of these cutbacks (Interruptions). in various locations around the country such as 30 nurses and four consultants sacked from Sligo An Ceann Comhairle: The Taoiseach must be General Hospital; dental services for children in allowed to reply to Deputy Kenny’s question. Inchicore and Bluebell cancelled; the 24-hour accident and emergency service at the Mid-West- The Taoiseach: If the Deputy wants to come to ern Regional Hospital in Ennis ended; breast the House and criticise everything in the health cancer services at 13 hospitals closed and no other service then so be it, but I will give him some of service put in their place; the 24-hour bed unit the facts of the situation. As I said, 120,000 work for the rehabilitation of elderly patients at Merlin in the health service and they deal with 100,000 Park closed, with another to follow; and the can- patients per month. Both the adult and children’s cellation of essential suicide prevention training waiting lists, as produced by the HSE, are at in the form of applied suicide prevention skills. record lows right across the system. Some 100,000 One can go into any community in this country inpatient and daycare procedures are carried out and see what is happening. in public hospitals every month — in excess of 1 1371 Leaders’ 3 October 2007. Questions 1372 [The Taoiseach.] manage within its budget and these are some of million annually. Even if 41,000 is the figure — the effects of that. as I said yesterday, I do not know if it is — it is comparatively low against the figures from last Deputy Brian Hayes: There will soon be no year, three years ago, five years ago or ten years full-time staff to manage patient care. ago. It is a much smaller proportion of the total figure. The Taoiseach: Not very many years ago legis- There will always be people on waiting lists. lation was introduced by Fine Gael, which I sup- The National Treatment Purchase Fund, which ported, so there is no criticism of that, under issued a report recently, states there has been a which health boards could not exceed their allo- consistent pattern of reducing surgical waiting cation and must manage within that. lists throughout the public hospital system over recent years. The report points out that, for most Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: What did the common procedures, adults and children now Government do before the election? wait between two and five months, compared to between two and five years some five years ago. The Taoiseach: Deputy McCormack is not the leader of Fine Gael. Deputy Brian Hayes: Who was the Minister five years ago? Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: I was only asking. Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: The Taoiseach is The Taoiseach: The HSE must get itself into great with figures. line by the end of the year. There is no alternative to that. It accepts it has an obligation to do it. The Taoiseach: That is a simple fact according This time last year the HSE had underspent and to the people who deal with the issue. If Deputy there was a race to spend the money it had in the Kenny wants to say that the people dealing with last few months of the year. I was criticised the issue know nothing, while he knows every- because its capital programme was not spent. This thing, that is fine. year it has its management together—— The National Treatment Purchase Fund has stated there is no need for anyone to wait more Deputy Brian Hayes: Some management. than three months for an operation and that it is unacceptable that they should do so. If people in Deputy Michael Ring: It is like the Irish rugby such a situation contact the National Treatment team. Purchase Fund, its members will be only too glad to deal with them. As I said yesterday, some The Taoiseach: It has got its systems and struc- hospitals are not co-operating fully with the fund tures together. It has spent its capital programme but the HSE is dealing with that issue. and it is on target with regard to its capital prog- On Deputy Kenny’s second point, it is a fact ramme. It is not in the same position as it was last \ that the HSE exceeded its allocated Vote of 14 year. Deputy Kenny’s allegation that the HSE is \ billion by 222 million. The health service is Vote not providing a top quality service in most areas \ \ is 15 billion and the HSE gets 14 billion of that of health is untrue. UCD did a very large and amount. At the end of August, its Accounting comprehensive survey of the health service, tak- \ Officer stated that it was 220 million over ing in more than 3,500 people. Rather than myths budget and that it had to take corrective about it, it showed what the people who use the measures to put itself back into line, like any health service think of it. The Deputies opposite other agency or department. It has designated a should factor that in rather than jumping up to number of areas where this has to take effect. I complain because somebody has found out he or am not here to manage every one of those. The she cannot order a chair or a table out of a budget HSE knows its allocation. In fairness to Deputy of \15 billion.
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