Minnesota Youth Gang Research Project Minnesota Historical Society

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TapeS36-1' 3~-~ J Interview with LOW-B 19 year old Black American Coon Rapids Tree Top Piru Blood

Interviewed by Kate Cavett Hand In Hand Saturday March 28, 1998 Maplewood, MN .20 KC: Introduce yourself to me. L: I'm (name). KC: How old are you? Project L: 19. KC: Give me a name that I can use when I use your interview. L: Low-R KC: When did you first become aware of gangs? L: Age of 13. KC: How? Society L: Urn, hangin around friends. Bein around my neighborhood.Research Urn, some family relations, close friends ta the family an whatever else. KC: What was your first activity with gangs? ~ L: Urn, gettin high, sittin around chillin then started ta get inta the crimes. KC: What crimes did you initially get into?Gang L: Urn, anything from robbin people ta stealinHistorical cars. Urn, ta gettin inta fights, sellin drugs, whatever else. KC: What gang were you hanging out with at this time and how involved were you with the gang? Youth L: I was hanging out with the GD's at this time. I was .. um, I was, I wasn't too, I was involved with ah criminal activity bein friends or whatever else. Urn, I was lookin at the relationship that I could have wid em, but I don't know, I wasn't, I wasn't in the gang at the time. KC: So you never wereMinnesota initiated to the GD's. L: No. KC: HowMinnesota long did you hang out with them? And, what city? L: I hung out wid em for a couple years in Rock Island, Illinois. Thas a small town 2 hours from Chicago, north a Chicago. 2.32 KC: What was the next step for you, in involvement with the gangs? L: Huh? KC: Well, you hung out with them for two years and sounds like you didn't...... did you move? Did you quit hanging out with them? Why did you quit hanging out with them? What happened next?

L: Oh. Urn, I didn't.. .. I hung out with em, but I wasn't more, I wasn't as involved as I was before. Urn, cuz I felt, ya know, they talked about a lot a stuff, but a lot of it was bogus, so, I really didn't do too much wid em. I end up movin up to Minnesota an thas when a definite affiliation came into my life basically. Ah, an that affiliation was Tree Top Piru's an I was introduced ta that through my stepbrothers, my older stepbrothers an cousins. KC: So how did your involvement start and grow with the Tree Top Piru's? And, this was in .. where? L: This was over So. Minneapolis. Urn, I don't know, I kinda got..they noticed that I was gettin kinda weird with ah hangin with the other affiliation, that I didn't really wanna hang with em anymore. An, between that time of me tryin ta find myself an tryin ta find somethin else ta do, the snuck their way in an basically, ah, convinced me that thas were I needed ta be ... .is with them. Thas what I chose ta do. Project KC: How did they convince you? 4.06 L: Urn. Bad mouthin the other set. Sayin I should hang, ya know, I like hangin with them .. so, ifI want ta hang with them I should become one a them. Urn, jus tellin me I can do a lot more with them than with anybody else, cuz they were a lot more serious a lot a about making your scrilla an out commitin crimes all the timeSociety an doin petty stuff. KC: Was there an initiation for you to become a memberResearch of Tree Top? L: Yes. Course there was. KC: And then ..... you can tell me the story about that. L: Urn, well we were sittin in Columbia Heights one day an, ya know, thas where we all use ta go to all the time. Sittin in one ofGang the alley's or whatever else an ya know they're like do you wanna become a B-Dog. SO . .I'm like, yeah - I wanna become a B-Dog. So they're like - awright. So they said waitHistorical on til later on tonight, so it was a whole bunch a my cousins like seven or eight of em an I had my back turned an next ya know one a my cousins came up an hitYouth me in the stomach an then I didn't know what was goin on so I jus started... as soon as he hit me in the stomach I started defendin myself an then everybody else started swoopin around me. I was throwin punches an they were comin in an I was doin whatever else I need ta do ta keep them from offin me, throwin punches, hittin ern, urn, I mean I was gettin in licks, they was gettin in licks so, ya know, I was gettin broadsided whateverMinnesota else. An, somehow I ended up on the ground, I end up trippin an they all piled up on top a me an started kickin me an punchin me an whatever else they neededMinnesota ta do ta keep me down. Urn, an at that time I was jus basically balled up into a little ball tryin ta keep my head from gettin kicked an everything else. But, I end up gettin outa it. My two minutes was up, it was the longest two minutes I ever had into a fight, but, I don't know, I guess in the long run at the time it was worth it. 6.14 KC: Why was it worth it? L: Urn, in my head I proved to myself that I know I could do what I have to do to defend myself An, I ain't no chump. KC: What would have happened if you would have seen yourself as a chump?

L: I think ifI woulda seen myself as a chump then everybody else woulda seen myself as a chump an I wouldn't a been, it wouldn't a been an easier life for me in the gang situation than it was. KC: What's a chump? L: A punk, a somebody that can't handle themselves, ah ... basically a sissy ... you could say that. KC: So if somebody gets beat up and it really hurts and they cry, than that's a chump, that's not human? L: In some cases, yeah. Urn, a lot a the time, yeah. KC: Did you feel better about yourself having being initiated into a gang, formally attaching to a gang? L: Yep. Project KC: Did you participate in other initiations? L: Yeah, I did. KC: Is the routine a two minute beat-in for Bloods? 7.25 L: Urn, anytime from a one to a two, but it all depends on if the person is beat-out, urn . .if he's still fightin back than there still might, you could still keepSociety goin if he doesn't fight back, ya know, sittin there cryin, ya know, whateverResearch else. Than it eventually stops, so it all depends on the person or the people. KC: How old were you at this time? L: 15. Yeah, I was 15 goin on 16. KC: 15 going on 16. Did you get any seriousGang injuries that needed to be looked at by a doctor? L: No. KC: Do you think because you were family theyHistorical were any lighter on you, or were they worse on you? L: I think they were, theyYouth were worse on me. Some a the people that was in it was worse on me because a lot a .... a couple of em wasn't my family. They was jus friends or whatever. So, a lot a people were worse on me. I came out with a couple bruises but it wadn't nuttin big I needed ta go to the hospital for, so. KC: What was the next step then? What was the evolution? Tell me the story of your involvement with TreeMinnesota Top. 8.38 L: Urn,Minnesota I did a bunch a stuff, ya know, we hung out all the time, got high all the time. Urn, the first day I ended up get initiated, ah ... we ended up jackin some .. some dudes. I forgot were we jacked em at, but, ya know, jacked em for his ride or whatever else, an I don't know. I didn't think that was .... that was all me, ya know, I held the pistola, ya know, I did whatever I had ta do, ya know, so ... a lot a it was from me. We basically smoked a lot a weed, hung out, sold drugs, whatever else we needed ta do ta make our money an have fun at the same time. Urn, at that time I stopped goin ta school an ah, started do in more a the street business an whatever else. KC: Why was it fun?

L: Cuz I'm that type of person that has adrenalin rush an ya know I like Iivin on the edge. I like the edge, ya know what I'm sayin. Um, ya know I like bein bold, I Iike ... an thas what that life consisted of was bein bold an livin on the edge an doin what you, what other people wouldn't do, ya know. What society didn't..•• didn't ah, think was right or whatever else, ya know, what other people didn't agree upon, ya know. Thas what I liked ta do an ya know, I liked that life. Thas what basically I was all about, in a sense. KC: Tell me some stories about that life. You've listed some things. Can you tell me some stories about what it is to really live in that bold life. L: It's not.. . .like I say it's not a lonely life it's, ah, it's consisted offlin an ya know a lot a things that people would dream of havin as fun an ya know friendships with other people, ya know what I'm sayin. An, a lot a power in some . .in some waysProject a lot a power an that's what that consisted of, ya know what I'm sayin. I had .. .I had the fun, I had the power, I had the friends, I had the money, I had the whatever else that I needed, ya know. Urn, I took care of myself an ya know, I had my business an I was looked at as a person that, ya know, somebody you shouldn't mess with or whatever else, ya know. An, thas what, thas what that lifestyle ... ya know thas what called me ta that, ya know. An, I was pursued .. .I was looked at as basically a miniature god, if you would say,Society because of the stuff I did, an what I liked. What my head was about, ya know.Research 11.34 KC: What was it like having that much power? L: The, like I say, it was a rush. An, sometimes it was fun, sometimes ... a lot, a majority of the time it got boring, ya know it wasGang old, ya know. Urn, plus you really couldn't do nuttin, without somebody knowin who you are, ya know. Urn, ya couldn't really fight without somebody knowing whach yer about,Historical so it kinda got boring, ya know. Sometimes you feel, yeah - they know who I am, ya know what I'm saying, they won't mess with me, but then when you wannaYouth get. .. when you feel like get inta that brawl or whatever, they won't mess with you cuz they know who you are. So, it kind ... .it got boring at once, but sometimes it was fun. KC: Where was it that you hung out mostly? 12.30 L: Urn, we did a hangMinnesota ... we hung out a lot in ... we went to the Cities a lot. Urn, we hung out in the Cities a lot. We hung out in, ya know, Fridley, Coon Rapids, we did ... we hung out inMinnesota Columbia Heights a lot a the time. So, we were basically allover, but I think we hung out the most in Columbia Heights an in the Cities. KC: So, the home base ofthe gang then would be considered the Northern Suburbs, Columbia Heights? L: Yeah. KC: Is that where you did most of your business, most of your crimes to make money to survive? L: Yeah. KC: Did you live in the Northern Suburbs?

L: I lived out in Coon Rapids at the time, I think:, yeah. KC: Why would you come into the Cities then? L: Cuz thas where the action was. Thas where a lot a the .. thas where a Iota drama was, ya know. Thas where I got my fun at, ya know. I could live out in the suburbs, buy hey, I wasn't havin too much fun, ya know what I'm sayin. Cuz there wasn't a lot a people out there that would test you, ya know. Come in to the Cities there was all kind a people that would test you an thas where I had my fun at, ya know. KC: Tell me a story about a trip to the Cities. Tell me a story about a day when you really enjoyed it cuz you got tested. L: Well, I remember one day, this was a while ago that my brother an I were on a bus an we were comin from downtown an a bunch a .... an a bunch of them other boys, boys that wear the blue, we were gettin on the bus goin to the ??? an ah, it was jusProject me an him ... next, ya know, some dude reached in an popped my brother...smacked my brother, so we all, we gonna get off the bus an do whatever we had ta do. Next thing ya know, they start cappin at the bus, ya know. An, this is a whole bus full a people an they jus start cappin at the bus. So, bus driver pull it off an ... .I got high from doin that, ya know. From that happenin, people were scared but it didn't...I was jus pumped up ta do something else, ya know what I'm sayin. An, I don't know, um.. .1ike one timeSociety we was comin from over North from a party or whatever else an it was busResearch load a us an ah, we was jus gettin out a party an we're gettin on a bus an we're ridin down the street an next ya know somebody started cappin at the bus an the bus driver stopped the bus an he got off the bus an left us on the bus with the doors closed. So we jumped out the windows an everybody jus started scatterin. An, ah, a couple Ganga us caught up with the bus driver, end up whoopin ... beatin em up, ya know what I'm sayin, cuz he left us on the bus or whatever else. An, so, I don't know that jus... thatHistorical put me there. KC: Define cappin. 15.34 Youth L: Gettin popped, people shootin at you. Urn, bustin caps basically. KC: So, capping is shooting. Somebody shooting at the bus. L: Yeah. KC: What would you do then, you had this all this adrenalin going, ya know, would you go out and look for otherMinnesota fights, would you look to retaliate? L: Urn, I'd look for other fights, I'd retaliate, do whatever I had ta do ta get rid of that rush. Urn,Minnesota majority of the time I'd go out an fight, look for other fights. Look for other people I could take my anger out on, ya know what I'm sayin. Go out ... sometimes jus go out an get high, escape from the moment ya know, cuz it.. . .I don't know ... sometimes it was traumatizing, ya know. I jus.. .I felt like, ya know, whas goin on, ya know what I'm sayin. A lot a time, I'd jus do whatever I had ta do ta get rid of that anger. KC: Where is all the anger from? What were you angry about? 16.36 L: I don't know, it's jus... ya know what I'm sayin, who they think: they is, whatever ya wooptewoo ya know what I'm sayin. They don't know nuttin about me, ya know, they

don't know what they gettin into, ya know. Urn, basically, ya know, start drama when I'm jus out tryin ta have fun, ya know what I'm sayin. I ain't startin nuttin with nobody else an it's like I can't even get away from that ya know what I'm sayin. An, I think thas what I was mad about an I couldn't do nuttin about it at the time cuz I'm runnin for my life ya know, so. KC: Why were you running for your life? L: Cuz I don't wanna get popped. Ya know thas why I was runnin for my life, I jus didn't wanna get popped, ya know what I'm sayin. But.. .. KC: Who were the rivals of the Tree Top Piru? L: Anybody that wore the blue color. The Crips, urn, Six O's, Snot Noses, urn, UNC's a lot a the, some a the Vice Lords ya know. We didn't, I didn't get along with em. I didn't get along with none a the Latin Kings or the IVL's. Urn, I didn't getProject along with none a the UNC's an ya know people like that. KC: Were there any allies that your set had? L: Yeah. Tyson Mafia, ya know what I'm saying. We, some of us, some a the time it was the 30's ya know what I'm sayin, the Trail Bloods, urn Inglewood Bloods, ya know what I'm saying. We all hung, we all did what we had ta do, ya know. A lot a us, some people, certain individuals didn't get along, but I don't think that stoppedSociety .... ya know there was no problem between the sets. Research KC: How many were in your set? Your set was Tree Top Piru that was the full name of it? L: I have no idea. I think, I don't know. Anywhere from, I mean we were jus startin out an maybe at the time it was like ... 20 ta 25, yeah at the time it was about that. I mean when I got locked up, they started accumulatin,Gang but I don't know, I didn't keep track after that. KC: What were the age ranges and what was the cultural background? 18.5- Historical L: Age ranges was from anywhere from, when I started, 15 on up ta ya know 20,21,22,23, whatever. Cultural background,Youth ya know what I'm saying, the majority of em was African American, Black. Some were Hispanic an a couple of em were White. So, it was pretty out there. KC: If anybody wanted to get in and they proved themselves, you'd let them join your set? L: I think, urn, somebody might a had some doubts about em, whatever else ya know is ... .is ya know, if we hadMinnesota doubts about em, whatever else, it wouldn't happen. But, ya know, if everybody was on the uppity up wid it, ya know what I'm sayin, thought it was cooL.then,Minnesota yeah, ya know. KC: You were family and so your family knew what you had been doing before. If somebody new started hanging around, what would they have to do to prove that they deserve to be considered to join? 19.5-- L: Uh, it take consistant, ya know what I'm sayin, consistant behavior, bein around us, ya know what I'm sayin. Hangin with us, bein down with us whatever else we needed ta do they was there ta do it, ya know what I'm sayin. Urn, I don't think we'd jump right inta hey ya wanna get, ya know what I'm sayin, ya wanna become one a us, ya know what I'm

sayin, ya wanna come to the real side or whatever. It wouldn't be like that, ya know what I'm sayin, it'd be like - bam, ya know, we finish go out ya gonna get down, ya know what I'm saying. If they want ta be really down with the set, ya know what I'm sayin, they'd do what they had ta do ta protect themselves an others, ya know, the homies that they was with. KC: Did you do any specific recruiting of getting members into the set? L: No. Nope. KC: Did other people? L: Yeah, some people did, but 1 .. .1 didn't. KC: Did you have rank? L: Yeah. KC: What was the rank in the Tree Top Piru? Project L: I was . .1 was rankin, ya know, I was in charge ofthe shorties, urn, I ah .. .1 ran a lot a .. .1 did a lot a the drugs, a lot a the ya know sayin .... I handled whatever needed ta be handled with jackin folks an a lot a the time I jus sat back an watched a lot a the younger people under me do it. Urn, so I was basically up there with a lot a grown folks cuz I handled my business, ya know what I'm sayin, I didn't need ta prove myself anymore, so a lot a it was jus what I was told ta do an I jus told somebody else ta do Societyit. Or, ya know, sittin in on meetins or whatever else, ya know what I'm sayin,Research I'm part a the table, ya know. So, makin decisions that we needed ta do as a set an lettin everybody else know. 21.42 KC: So, there was like an Executive Board that ran the organization. L: Urn huh. Gang KC: Were there names for the ranks, names for the people on the Executive Board? L: Naw, we was jus recognized for who weHistorical was an what we was all about an it was basically, ya know, it was basically looked up an given to us basically an you know wasn't no specific name or, ya knowYouth what I'm sayin. KC: And, if! ask you a question and you don't want to answer truthfully, just tell me that ok? L: Uh urn. KC: Was there one person that would be seen as the predominant leader? L: Naw, it was more of a family thing, ya know what I'm sayin, more of a executive type thing it wasn't no predominantMinnesota leader in em. KC: So anybody who was in the inner circle could say ''we need to have a meeting"? L: Yeah.Minnesota KC: Did you have meeting with the whole set on a regular basis? L: Yeah. KC: How regular was that? How was that scheduled? L: It was scheduled on Thursdays or on Sundays. One a the two, like around 4:00, urn ... anytime between there. Ya know, we sit down an talk about what we need ta do as making scrilla an, ya know what I'm sayin, puttin cheese inta the set an whatever else .... we took care a ... we took care of each other ya know. An, I don't know. KC: Define scrilla and cheese for me.

L: Meanin money, basically. KC: Both scrilla and cheese mean money. So, your meetings would be how .... we need to make more money, this is how we're gonna do it.. .. 23.32 L: An, process of doin it. . .ifwe need ta go out an jack somebody, ya know what I'm sayin. Urn, specific things we want ta do during the week or whatever else. KC: Were the meetings kind oflike parties or were they very much business meetings? L: Business meetings, ya know. There was no gettin high, there was no gettin high, it was jus sittin there an talkin an takin care a business. KC: How many people would be at a meeting? L: Urn, a lot a em wouldn't come. Ah, maybe about 10, 12 would be there at a time. Urn, majority ... some a the time it'd be a lot more, but...a couple ... um .. someProject a the time it would like 10 to 12, so. KC: Ifpeople didn't show up at meetings and they'd been initiated in, would there any violations for them? 24.26 L: First time get a warnin, second time wid a been a violation, I think thas why we ... thas why we got more people startin ta come, ya know. Cuz it was Societybasically what we needed ta do as a set to become, ya know, set ta become knownResearch or whatever else. An, if they didn't come, ya know, it jus shownin that they really don't care that, ya know what I'm sayin, they basically was hangin in the field a battle or whatever, ya know, cuz they ain't here takin care a business. KC: Why did you want to become knownGang as a set? L: Respect, power...urn, basically let it be knows that we're out on the streets, an ya know what I'm sayin, we're there ta stay. YaHistorical know, jus like any other gang, whatever. Ya know what I'm sayin, we wanna be put on the boards as somebody thas out there, ya know. Urn, that we takeYouth care a our business. KC: How old was this set when you joined? L: A year, yeah. Yean an a half KC: A year, year and a half So, is this a set that has been transferred from California or was this a set predominantly that your brothers put together? L: People came fromMinnesota Cali, talked an ya know, whatever else, an I think a lot a it was predominantly from my brothers an cousins bringin it tagether. But, we had some people fromMinnesota the other state an whatever, from Cali come an talk, ya know what I'm sayin. An, I think thas what influence I saw. 226.03 KC: Was there literature with the set? L: No. The basic lit was ya take care a yourself, ya take care of others, ya know what I'm sayin. Um, you do what you need ta do ta protect yourself an protect your homies., Ya know. Um, you take care a business an thas what we .•. thas what we here ta do. If you ain't gotta, ya know what I'm sayin, if you ain't gotta show violence, ya know, don't show it. But if you have to, you do what you gotta do.

Basically, be respectful, ya know. Urn, that was basically about it, ya know. Know the difference between right an wrong, an if you got, ya know what I'm sayin an whatever else. 26.42 KC: So, ifit wasn't about doing violence unless you had to, and yet, you got a rush from doing violence. Would sometimes you go out there and just look for violence? L: Urn. huh. Yeah, urn, I think after awhile I seemed ta calm down, ya know. But, in the beginin I jus went out ta do what I had ta do ta get my rush, ya know. Urn, a lot a the time it was jus maybe jus gettin high or whatever else. Ya know, it was considered a crime, but hey, I didn't look at it that way Ijus looked at gettin high. But, urn .. .if I was real bored an tired a gettin high I'd go out an commit a crime, ya know.. I think over the years I kinda calmed down a little bit. I jus started smokin a little bitProject more weed than I did before, so. 27.30 KC: How did the business work? Did a certain amount of the money have to go into a pot or you just bought your drugs and sold them and everybody made their own money? L: Some of it went into a pot for the set. A Iota it, a portion of it went into the pot for the set an whatever else. An, a lot of it, ah .. people kept for themselvesSociety ta recop an do what they had ta do for themselves an their families orResearch whatever else. 28.07 KC: Where did you live? Were you living with members of the set or were you living with family? L: I was living with family an, ya know,Gang livin with my brothers an my mom an them, so they were part a the set an whatever else, so. KC: Is your mom part of the set? Historical L: Naw. No. KC: Tell me a story about aYouth weapon, or tell me stories about weapons. 28.30 L: I don't know what ta tell ya, I mean ..... specific weapons, Of...... KC: What weapons did you use? L: I use between a metal rod an a pistola, ya know, knives whatever else. I remember one time we were in theMinnesota motion ofjackin somebody or whatever else. I had a .25 on me, it was a little small .25 automatic an ah .. .it was loaded, ya know, I planned on usin it ifI had to.Minnesota Urn, so ... there was one other where I was out slingin dopeyola one day, so I was sittin in the alley an some hypes came up, ya know what I'm sayin, an asked for 50, ya know what I'm sayin, I have some I got 3 for 50 whatever else, ya know. I put my hand in the window, start showin em the rocks an some dude in the backseat started goin crazy, ya know, an so I snatched my hand back an look at my hand an I still had my yola in my hand, so I put it in my pocket an next I hear em skirtin down the alley, I pull out. . .1 pull out my pistol an started dumpin on em, ya know, back window shattered, whatever else. It was four people .. .it was two people in the backseat, two in the front, so I don't know if anybody end up comin out alive, but I know I was jus dump in, cuz I was mad, ya know

what I'm sayin. I don't care who you is, you don't mess with nobody's money, ya know. KC: What was your favorite gun? 30.11 L: I think I like the small pistols. Urn, I liked my 25 a lot. But, my favorite gun was a, I had a 22 revolver, it was gold plated with a wood handle on it. An, that was my favorite right there. KC: What happened to it? L: Dh, it got ... .it got confiscated one time an we were in a stolen ride or somethin an I ended up leavin it behind or whatever else, an ah ... never seen it again, so. It was cold, but oh well ... .1 got away .... so. KC: Did the set own the guns or did everybody own theirs individually? L: People owned theirs individually. Project KC: How many guns would you own at a time? L: I owned two guns at a time, maybe one, it all depends. Urn, I own ... at least two at a time, sometimes one. KC: Were you strapped most of the time? L: Yeah. Most a the time, when I was out by myselfl was. Ifl wasn't out by myself, somebody else was strapped that was in the set, so. Society 31.28 Research KC: Would you be out by yourself most of the time or would you be with other members of the set? L: When I was out handlin my money. I was out most a the time by myself an thas when I would be. But, when I wasn'1.. .. allGang the time I was handlin my money, but when ah .. .1 was out with the homies, whatever else, I wouldn't be. Jus out hangin around, ya know, go over there an chillin with them, I wouldn'tHistorical be, so. 31.54 KC: How many hours a dayYouth would you be out working? L: Urn, I'd be out there for hours. Ya know, tryin ta get off a 8 ball or ya know what I'm sayin, jus a teen or somethin ya know. Jus whatever I had on me, ya know, if I jus came across ... found a teen in my room ... for one day I'd go out an sit out there for hours ta get it off me, ya know what I'm saying. So, I probably stand out there for at least, anywhere from 3 to 5 hours aMinnesota day tryin ta get whatever.. .. an ifit took longer, ya know I'd .... .ifit was one a them slow movin days then I'd probably be out there from a couple ... .1 rememberMinnesota a couple times I was out there from like 10 at night ta at least 6 or 7 in the morning, ya know what I'm sayin, tryin ta get it off, so. KC: Is this seven days a week? L: Yeah, a Iota time it was. KC: So, is it about just getting rid of everything that you have or making a certain amount of money or...... L: Me, it was makin the money an gettin rid of what I had so I can get mo, ya know. 1 ... .1 was .. .1 think I was money hungry. KC: Were you accumulating possessions with the money or were you mostly just getting high?

33.06 L: Some a the time, ya know, 1 wasn't.. . .1 think 1 was gettin high a Iota the time, ya know. Urn, a Iota my money went ta smokin weed or goin out havin fun, partyin, clothes whatever else, ya know, necklaces an pagers an ya know whatever 1 wanted. A Iota it was material things, ya know, so. KC: The supply for the drugs to sell came through the gang? Or, did you have other suppliers? L: We had suppliers through the gang but we had .. .1 had personal supplier also, so. It came from wherever 1 felt like goin to. KC: So if you went to a personal supplier, than did you have to give a certain percentage back to the gang? Or, were there just times at meetings when they said - "we're gonna need some money, everybody kick in"? L: Yeah, we're gonna need some money, everybody, ya know __ aProject Iota time. Urn, I'd say at least 7 outa 10 times ya know, we'd - no 5 outa 10 I'd say, half the time we'd hafta kick in, ya know. Cuz, we made our money last, but other times, ya know, we kept it for ourselves an did what we had ta do, in order ta do that 5 outa 10 times ya put in the pot, ya know what I'm sayin an still be able ta recop. KC: Was the money used to bail people out or .... L: It was used for whatever we needed it for. Ifwe needed taSociety bail somebody out, then yeah. Ifnot, then we'd buy stuff for the set, ya knowResearch what I'm sayin. Ah, we'd have parties for us an ya know, have people over whatever, ya know what I'm sayin. Urn, we'd do all kind a stuff. KC: What kind of stuff would you have to buy for the set? 34.5- Gang L: 1 don't know, we didn't buy too much for the set, ya know what I'm sayin, we'd come together for barbeque's, ya know what HistoricalI'm sayin, we'd have parties whatever else. Urn, ya know, ah ... sometimes, ya know, the set would have a couple pistola's hidden away, whatever else, if we neededYouth em. So, it was basically what we wanted ta... what we wanted use it for, ya know, so. KC: When you were arrested, was the set there paying for lawyers or bailing you out or anything? L: When 1 was arrested, 1 was arrested as a juvenile, so there was no bail posted. I'd get out, it was hold over...I'dMinnesota get out the next day, so. 35.33 KC: DidMinnesota they hire a lawyer for you or anything to help you with the charges? L: No.1 think, 1 think the whole time .. the whole time that 1 was arrested, whatever else, 1 was in an out a JC's like 5 ... 7 times an they were hold overs, but I've never been locked up for a period of time. I've been on probation three times. Other than that, I've been gettin slaps on the wrist, so - an, when 1 did get a lawyer it was a public defender, so it wasn't .... a lot a time it wasn't nuttin serious, so. KC: When you were on probation, how closely did they follow you on probation? Did they give you UA's? L: No. No UA's. Urn, 1 didn't really go see my probation officer too much, I'd say once

every blue moon, ya know. I'd be on probation fer, I was on probation for nine months an I got off a probation early. An, last time I was on probation, I was on probation for another 9 months, but I end up doin my last crime, so I got another probation on it, so. KC: Did you take probatin seriously? I mean, did you change your lifestyle at all? L: First couple times, no. I didn't taken any seriously at all, cuz I knew nuttin was happenin, ya know what I'm sayin, I was through the system, I knew about the system ya know. System didn't know too much about me an thas the way I kept it. Ya know what I'm sayin, thas when I could do whenever I wanted ta do if they didn't know too much about me. KC: Were you ever given UA's since you were getting high all the time? L: No, I think, now that I'm on probation these were the first.. .. my firsts time gettin UA's was when I got locked up fer my 13 months. That was the first timeProject I got U A's an that was in what... '96 goin on '97, so that was the first time ever got UA's. KC: Can you tell me about the crime that you're currently working under? L: Urn, at the time I got locked up it was two counts a aggravated armed robbery. Urn, I don't know, we robbed a restaurant, a couple of us an ... with pistols, shotguns an whatever else. An, I got locked up for 13 months for it. I don't know. KC: Did anybody else get locked? Society L: Oh everybody got locked up for it. Nobody... twoResearch outa the five people went ta prison. Other than that, nobody else went ta prison. KC: How come only 2 out of5? 38.18 L: Because they were .... prior to this crimeGang they had other armed robberies in different states an whatever else, so. One of em, he had got sent ta prison after his court date, cuz ... ah, LA. .. cuz he was from Cali an ah ... he hadHistorical a ... they wanted ta give him prison time up here from what he did an he got extradited back up ta Cali from other things that he did, so ... 1 think thas why he got Youthsent to the pen. An, one a the dudes was in the workhouse an wasn't gonna send him ta prison, but they found out he did another armed robbery so they sent him to the pen too, so. KC: Were the other three juveniles? L: Ah, two of em was, the other one wasn't. He jus got a year in jail an 20 years a probation. KC: 20 years of probation?Minnesota L: Urn huh. Do they pay any attention? Do they give him UA's? Do they pay attention to whatMinnesota he's doing? L: I have no idea. I don't keep up with em. I have no contact with em, so I wouldn't know. KC: Is that part of your probation, not to have contact? L: Yeah. KC: So, what were your consequences? L: 7 ta 11 months bein locked up, probation til I'm 21. U A's, no contact with victims or accomplices, no possion of any weapons whatsoever. Urn, no usin .. um, no contact with gang members, urn an check your own probation an whatever else. Urn, basically follow my probation rules an be a good guy.

KC: Be a good guy. But, you did get EJJ? L: Urn huh. KC: And, you're under Anoka County? L: Yep. KC: Have all your probations been under Anoka County? L: Yep. 40.17 KC: Because you were living in Columbia Heights and that's in Anoka County? L: Yeah. KC: Well, if you didn't pay attention to probation before, are you now? L: Urn, I think in the beginning I was payin a lot attention ta probation when I first got locked up cuz when I was locked up, ya know, it was pounded in myProject head, ya know, you do this you go ta jail for this, you go ta pen for this an whatever else. An then when I moved out to a group home it was still pounded in my head, whatever else. But, I think now that I'm out on my own it kinda died down, ya know. It's still in my head, but it's in the back a my head, I don't think about it too much. I think it's more impulsive action that I call my probation one a week an I do good, ya know, that I don't have ta worry about it an thas why I don't worry about it now. It's not a Societybig problem with me anymore. Urn, yeah I still think about, ya know, what if!Research did do that, ya know, if! got inta that situation I could go to the pen for so many months, ya know, or so many years. An, I think a lot a time I'm in a situation I don't wanna be in an I'll think about it. But, a Iota time, the majority a the time, I don't...it doesn't go through my head at al1.+ KC: How much adult time do you have Ganghanging over your head? L: F our an a half, over four an a half years in St. Cloud. KC: Is part of your probation curfew or anythingHistorical like that or just being a good guy? L: Urn, my PO, yeah, once set a curfew on me, but oh hell, I'm already out on my own, ya know what I'm sayin, YouthI'm 19 ... what else can I do wrong, ya know. I think I'm fine with .. .1 don't follow my curfew an ... yeah ... part of my probation is follow the rules, of your probation office an whatever else, but hey .. J think I'd justify that enough not ta follow my probation ... my, my curfew, but. KC: L: I don't get in no trouble,Minnesota so I don't worry about it, ya know. When I am out, I'm out with, ya know, sober people an people that don't do what I use ta do an don't do, ya knowMinnesota what I'm sayin, jus ... don't get inta that lifestyle an I think I'm fine, ya know. An, I know what I want for myself, so I don't do that myself either, so. I think can .. .1 think I handle myself jus fine out there. 42.35 KC: What's made you decide to change your lifestyle? L: Bein locked up. Understandin, ya know what I'm sayin, understandin what I did ta others an what my life consisted of an ya know. Growin up what my life consisted of an how I reflected that against society. Urn, how I hurt others because I was hurt, ya know. Urn, an I didn't like the feelin of bein hurt so why would I do that ta somebody else, ya know.

A Iota the friendships I was losin because .. .losing because a some of the stuff I would do. Urn, basically I wasn't makin a life for myself, I was .. um, ya know, I wasn't doin the high school think, I wasn't doin any a that stuff, ya know. I was jus basically bein a bum, ya know what I'm sayin. I was bein what my dad was, ya know, what he was ... what he was in his life, ya know, an I didn't want that, ya knOw. Think a lot of it because I got sober an I started thinkin about it an I started realizin what I wanted ta do with myself, so. I wasn't happy with, I guess, when I was locked up I wasn't happy with what I was doin so I decided ta try somethin different. 43.51 KC: What is your family history? Can you give me a synopsis of your family history? L: Family history is like any other persons .... well, not like any other persons family history, I grew up in the ghetto, I lived the ghetto life, I had family abuse an,Project ya know what I'm sayin, I had family abuse through my stepfather cuz he was a alocoholic or whatever else. He was in the military, so we moved a Iota the time. Urn, I was the only child so I was .. couldn't..that was it. Make a long story short, so. KC: You were the only child, your stepfather abused you. Did your parents use? L: Yeah, my mom smoked weed, she drank. My stepfather jus drank. My dad does smoke weed, drinks, I don't know what else .... I don't know ifhe Societydoes any a that other stuff, but.. .. thas all I know about him, so. Research KC: When you moved to Minnesota, did you move in with your dad then? L: Yep. Yeah, I moved in with him an his fiance at the time, my stepmom. KC: Dad and stepmom still together? L: Nope. Gang KC: But it was stepmom's sons that are your brothers that are your homies in the gang? L: Yep. Historical KC: Do you still have contact with all your parents? L: Yeah. Urn huh. Youth KC: Was there something that was said to you, something done or was it just being sober and thinking about life. I mean, were you locked up or were you in treatment? L: I was in both. I was locked up an in .. .I was never in treatment treatment for chemical abuse an whatever else, but my facility that I was in it was more like .. .it was more like treatment, ya know,Minnesota helpin with distortions in the head an whatever else, so. KC: Where were you in treatment? L: LinoMinnesota Lakes. KC: How long? L: 13 months. Close ta 13 months, yeah, over a year. KC: What all did you do there? 46.06 L: Urn, anything from worked on myselfta helpin other people. Urn, we did, I don't know, we did a Iota treatment activities. Urn, I went ta school while I was there, urn .. I basically started makin a life for myself while I was there, that was about it. KC: What's the life that you've made for yourself?

L: The one I'm livin now, more clear thinkin, um .. usin my head a lot more than more impulsive actions that I use ta do. Urn, believin an trustin in others an trustin an believin in myself More self esteem for myself an, ya know, thinkin that I am a better person than I was an that...that I um ... actually ... specially that I am a better person than I use ta be. KC: What makes you a better person? L: I don't know, jus ah ... well, I'm able ta live on my own an try ta support myself. urn .. without goin out an doin the stuff I use ta do in order ta get the money that I did. I have a legal job, ya know what I'm sayin, I go ta school, I .. .1 associate myself with other people that, ya know what I'm sayin, that can help me an I help them, ya know. Like I say, I'm doin more for myself an other people than ... before I was jus doin a Iota stuff for myself, bein selfish. KC: So what created the transition to decide to do for others? Project L: Stop younger people from becomin people like me or other people that I'd known before. Urn, try ta help em go down the right path instead a the wrong one, cuz I been down that wayan I know what it's about, ya know what I'm saying, I think thas what transitioned me ta do that, be able ta do that. KC: Was there anyone or anyone thing, or any series of things that really .. .1 mean you can look back and say - "Ah, this makes me want to change"? Society 48.24 Research L: It was a series of things, but not jus one thing. Urn, it was a Iota them. A Iota people helped me an encouraged me, ya know, pointin out certain numbers a things that, ya know, I change that an then next ya know I got somethin else ta change, so I think it was more of a series of things that, ya knowGang...... KC: So, the treatment that the did at Lino Lakes kind of helped open a lot of doors for you? L: Yeah. Historical 49.03 KC: If you were to design aYouth treatment program, if you were to design an Intervention Program to help young men get out of gangs, you're an expert - you've been through it on both sides, what would be the pieces that you would put into that program? L: I .. .1 don't think, I couldn't...I' d basically have to sent em to where I was, ya know what I'm sayin. I wouldn't, I don't think I would .... .ifI was ta design my own program, it would be kinda likeMinnesota Lino Lakes. KC: So what would be the pieces that worked for you at Lino? L: Spendin,Minnesota ya know, the treatment..the treatment groups. Urn, I think one thing I would change about is bein able ta share part a my life with, ya know, some a the people that are actually tryin ta change themselves, ya know. I think thas one thing I would change about that was, ya know, I'd be able ta share my experiences with them, ya know what I'm saying, an we'd be able ta talk on a person ta person level, not a client ta person level. KC: Tell me more what you're saying? Explain it to me more. L: Well, in Lino, ya know, they're there for ... they're their ta help you. Urn ..... KC: Who is "they"? L: Staff. They're there ta help you with ah whatever treatment ... treatment work, urn .. point

out your distortions, but a lot of em didn't share their, ya know, I mean a lot of em didn't share some .. .it wasn't as powerful becuz some people didn't share a Iota their experiences. Urn, an I think thas what helped me change a lot, but was ... .! had, there was 2 specific people that I was close to becuz they shared their experiences, ya know, they told me about them bein in recovery, ya know what I'm sayin, they lettin me know what the world is like when you go in it ta recover, becuz thas what they were into, ya know, an thas what, thas the kinda life, thas the life that I was gonna live when I got out, sO ... ya know, I think I paid more attention ta them then a lot a other people becuz they shared part a their lives they were willin ta open up for, ya know, people like, ya know, us juveniles an be able ta help us in different ways than a lot a other staffwas, so. KC: So what I hear you saying is it's when staff are real with you and you felt that there was an honest exchange of human stories. They showed you their vulnerabilitiesProject and they just didn't do techniques and talk technical to you that made you really willing to look at your self 51.43 L: Urn huh. Yeah, thas what it was. I think those two people outa everybody in there, ya know, well, an one other person, ya know, I had the most respect for outa that whole treatment place, ya know. I had respect for others, I'm sayinSociety I respected em, I liked em, but I think those were the ... those three people IResearch put on a pedestal becuz they were, ya know what I'm sayin, they were able ta, I don't wanna say come down ta my level, but they were able to, ya know, be there with me ... see me eye to eye, ya know what I'm sayin. An, I had more respect for those people. KC: Who were they? Gang L: I'd rather not use names. KC: OK. What were their genders, ages andHistorical cultural backgrounds? L: They were males. They were Caucasian, they were white. I don't know . .! don't know .. um .. some of emYouth grew up like I did, ya know. I think one of em did, one grew up where the dad was a big time politician an some ... one a his home towns or whatever. Um ... one of em's dad was a prejudice dude, ya know what I'm sayin. Well, his grandfather was, so he grew up in prejudice lifestyle, grandfather movin on ta father an then ended up changin between father an son, ya know. Um... so, I can't really say too much about their backgroundMinnesota except for ya know, did drugs an um.. that...from those drugs that they did, ya know what I'm sayin, they accumulated a life of money, riches a IotaMinnesota connections an ya know basically a Iota hurtin themselves an hurtin other people. KC: And they could tell you about how they had changed their life? L: Yeah. They, ya know, they told me about them goin through treatment, ya know, what was different for em, urn .. how their life was before they went inta treament, ya know what I'm sayin, an um... basically them bein in prison an, ya kow what I'm sayin, jus bein able ta talk, ya know. It was jus like ... man, ya know what I'm sayin .. .! have nothin on these people, ya know. The drugs an whatever else, ya know, it's like, ya know they .. .it's like when yer parents talk ta ya an they say, I know exactly what .... ya know I done did the same thing, ya know, but you don't really listen ta that, cuz yer thinkin this is the 90's, ya

know what I'm sayin, this ain't the 60' or the 70's ya know. An, but when you talk, when I was talkin to them, sayin like man they have been through a lot a the same stuff, ya know, maybe a little bit more, ya know what I'm sayin. An, I could actually take from them ya know. An, thas what it was about. KC: Are you going to invite them to your High School Graduation? L: Yeah, I would, one of them at least. I don't know, I think the other two doesn't work there anymore. But, one moved back to his, went back to Cleveland an I don't know what happened ta one a the other guys, think he might a moved also. So, one of em I will invite. KC: Were there any specific assignments that they had you do that opened things up for you, that made a difference for you? L: They had me write plays about my life an what it was, the abuse inProject my life. Urn, they had me write a play on my gang affiliation an the violence. KC: Did that help? 55.54 L: Somewhat. A little bit. But, I think the family thing it didn't help at all, becuz, ya know, I really had a mind set of what kinda family I did want if! was ta have a family, ya know what I'm sayin, an what I wanted ta be as a father, what theySociety had .... other than what they had me write, an so I think it brought out a littleResearch bit.. ... yeah, it kinda helped cuz it brought out a little bit more pain an anger that I had inside from ... from previous times ya know, so that...that helped a little bit, got a little bit more anger out an whatever else. Urn, the gang thing, ya know it helped out a lot, ya know, cuz I wrote it about my little brother, ya know, an so that helped out a lot. GangWhat I didn't want ta see happen ta him, ya know what I'm sayin. At the end I ended up dyin ya know. An, ya know, thas the way I see ... thas the way I see myself when I was in there, yaHistorical know, if! woulda kept goin, I'd a ended up dyin, ya know what I'm sayin, thas the way I looked at it, so .... .it helped .. .it helped out. KC: Were you tryin ta get Youthkilled? L: At the time I could care less, ya know what I'm sayin, if! was at the wrong spot, ya know, if! was at somebody else's territory dumpin, I could care less if!, ya know what I'm sayin, if! got popped on or whatever else it didn't bother me none at the time, ya know, I wasn't ... .! didn't worry about too much, I didn't worry about dyin becuz thas what I got myself Minnesotainto so thas one a the problems I woulda had ta face, so ... I'm sayin I didn't worry about it too much. KC: DoMinnesota you still care if you live or die? 57.- L: Oh yeah. I wanna live ta see ... I wanna live ta see a hundred, ya know what I'm sayin. I care a lot about livin right now. I don't wanna die. KC: You left treatment and you went into a group home. How was that effective for you? How was that not effective for you? L: I think it was a big tease on bein out. Urn, thas what I could say, how it was. It was effective, cuz it was a big tease on bein out an, ya know what I'm sayin, it was basically givin me some chain ta go out an reach part a the world, but it didn't give too much, ya

know what I'm sayin. So, it was a big tease for me ta conduct myself in the proper manner ta be out, ya know an have practice with that. Urn, an I think what wasn't productive about it, is that ya know they were looked upon as, ya know, they were there as authority figures but when I got out, I wouldn't have authority figures, ya know. I would be my own authority figure, tellin me what I can an cannot do, other than my probation officer, ya know, but she's not around me all the time. Tellin me where I can an cannot go, so I think thas was made me mad the most, ya know, so. KC: So, what would have been a plan that would have worked better for you? L: I don't know. I think ifI woulda had a couple plans shot in front a my face, ya know, they probably woulda worked, I probably woulda, ya know what I'm sayin, but .. .1 really don't know. I think, ya know, the one that I had when I was there, it was ok. But, ya know, there's, like I said, that authority tellin me when I can an cannot go Projectout an whatever else ya know, I jus didn't find a need for that, cuz basically I wouldn't be havin that when I got out, so it's like I'm gettin use ta somethin that I won't have when I do leave, ya know. So ...... I think that is one thing I would probably change when I was in there. So, ya know, I don't know. KC: Did it hurt you or did it help you? L: It kept me in line, I think it helped me some a the time. It hurtSociety me cuz, ya know, I was jus mad about it, ya know, I was jus angry about it Researchan jus wasn't, ya know, I'd snap on people that was in the house, ya know. I didn't...ya know at the time I was mad I wouldn't show respect whatever else. So, sometimes it helped, sometimes it hurt, so I think it was more 60/40. KC: What do you need now to keep changing?Gang L: I don't know. I think I have what I need ta keep changing. I have the support plan, I have the people that help me support myself,Historical ya know, 1.. .1 mean the people I can talk to or whatever else. The meetings that I go to, the sober people, ya know, I think I have when I need ta help meYouth change. I jus gotta, ya know what I'm sayin, put myselfthere, ya know, I gotta ask for it. KC: Are you happy with your life now? L: Yeah. I am. Except for the bills that I have ta pay. But, I'm happy with my life now, so. KC: It sounds like when you were being a drug dealer, you were working a lot harder than you are now. Minnesota 101.1- L: Yeah,Minnesota my life was a lot.. ... everybody might think it's easy, but it's a lot harder than what you may expect. Ya know, ya gotta think about how you gonna get around the 50 Ho Ho's this time, ya know what I'm sayin. How you not gonna get caught, ya know what I'm sayin, what'd happen ifthey start runnin up on ya, know what I'm sayin. Gotta watch yer back whatever else, ya gotta make the right amount a money in order ta recop, whatever. I think that lifestyle is a lot harder than it is ... than it is now, so. KC: Did you ever go back to that lifestyle to handle bills? L: Well, no. Sometimes I think about it. Ya know I can't lie an say I don't think about it, but I don't think I could do it. Today I'm scared.

KC: What do you do to deal with the adrenalin rush? The lack of adrenalin rush? 102.00 L: I don't know. Go dancin, um .. .I might do some skydivin this summer, ya know jus stuff like that. I'm jus a junkie fer adrenalin, ya know, so. KC: What have been some of the things that have been effective for you in dealing with it so far. L: Urn, well right now, I guess livin on my own I haven't done to much. Urn, I haven't done too much except for gone dancin, basically. An, that's helped out, it's dropped down a lot of it, but...ya know, I haven't really done too much. I haven't found my sponsor, I don't know. KC: You haven't found a sponsor? L: No I said "having fun with my sponsor", ya know, jus basically doinProject what I want ta do, ya know, an havin fun with it an then on top a that, ya know, still goin ta work an goin ta school at the same time, ya know, I don't know. I think I took out a big chunk of that adrenaline, but there's alway a little piece of it left, ya know, so. KC: What are you doing to still get rid of the anger that you're carrying around? L: I...1 don't, I mean .. .1 always ... a lot a the anger I do have, I'll talk about it an I think I do pretty damn good with talking about it, usin my supports, mySociety sponsor, the people next door. Whoever I need to talk to at the time, yaResearch know what I'm sayin. Urn, I think I do a great job a talkin about it other than actin out on it, so, thas what I do with mine. I let it out on meetings, when I go ta meetings an whatever else, so. KC: You're living in a White community with lots of White people and White culture around you, an it stikes me that you're veryGang much at home in Black culture, how does that work for you? L: No idea. I adjust. I don't know. Historical KC: Is that good or bad for you? L: Some good . .1 think ... someYouth good, some bad. Urn, I don't know. I think, I'm not really focused on that, I'm just focused on makin it an livin in it.. .. an livin, ya know. I'm not, I don't care .. .1 could care less where I live, ifllive in a .. .ifllive in a Mexican society, ya know, I'm there for myself, I'm not there for anybody else, ya know. I'm tryin ta take care a myself, nobody else is takin care a me, ya know. So I don't really look at that too much, ya know, I couldMinnesota care less where I live ... ll, if...it doesn't affect me at all. 105. KC: IfwhenMinnesota you were, oh maybe on probation the first time, and somebody had a, you know, they sent you to an Intervention Program where maybe once a week you went to meetings or three times a week after school or in the evening you went to a meeting to help you get out of gang, do you think that would have worked? L: No. KC: Why? L: Cuz, I wasn't .... at the time I didn't want to, ya know, it wasn't ... whatever they had for me it just wouldn't work, so ... .1 was too hard headed, I was too deep into it, so I really didn't care. I'd basically blow it off an be like you don't know what your talkin about, so that

was that, you know. It wouldn't a worked for me. 105.41 KC: So, being in a Residential Program is the thing that's made you totally being away from the gang. Do you think you could have left the gang in any other way other than being totally away from it and in a Residential Program? L: No. Nope, cuz once you're in, ya know if you're in that Residential Program, ya know, saying you're locked up, you're away from it, you won't...you can't turn around right after you get done talkin with treatment an go right back out an get high wid em, ya know what I'm sayin. An, go out an do whatever else you want ta do wid em. Ya know, so .. .1 think that. .. thas the big key about tryin ta get outa the gang life is bein away from em. Not bein able ta go around after you get done talkin, doin whatever your treatment is, go in right back to em an talkin to em, sayin gettin back inta that lifestyle.Project I think it's jus bein able ta stay away from em for a certain amount a time an gettin in that, ya know, help gettin that mentality that you're a lot better than that, ya know, you can do better than that, you can do whatever you wanna do instead a goin out an doin crimes all the time, ya know, an whatever else ya consisted of

KC: Let me check this out with you. What I think I've heard youSociety describe is at 15 years old, you were basically running your own business, livingResearch your own life, coming and going as you pleased and then after you got locked up there were a lot more restrictions on you, but it gave you an opportunity to see a different life, but the hard part is not being as independent as you were when you were the free wheeling drug dealer. 107.20 Gang L: Urn huh. Yeah, that was the harder part, but it's like I'm starting allover from birth again, ya know what I'm sayin. I was growin upHistorical again in my own head, ya know. Growin up from a kid ta havin those restrictions, ta havin that love there, ya know, an bein able ta talk an be happy, ya know whatYouth I'm sayin. Thas what it was like. KC: Where is the love? L: What do you mean, where's the love? KC: Where do you get the love from now? L: Urn, I think I get it from my sponsor. People at the meetings, I get it from ... now that my family know I'm a Minnesotatotal different person, ya know, I get it from them, ya know what I'm sayin. I get support from them, whoever else that's on my support plan, ya know. WhoeverMinnesota else's take the time out, willing ta, in my mind, willing ta take the time out willing ta work with me, ya know. I think thas where I get a lot a the love from. KC: Is the love different now than it was in the gang? L: More positive ... sometimes it's no different, a lot a times it is. I think with the times that it's no different is that they're there ta support ya, ya know, be there for ya. When it's different, it's that ah ... when they show love, ya know what I'm sayin, bein there ta support ya, they're there ta support ya in the habit of, ya know, squabbin with somebody else, ya know what I'm sayin. Getin high wit ya, takin ya away from the pain, ya know. An, thas a lot different from the love an support that I get with other people nowadays.

109.-- KC: How does one normally get out of Tree Top Piru Bloods? L: I think: .. .I think: I was the first one ta be out. Other than that, like I said I don't keep contact with em, I don't know if anybody else is gotten out. I would doubt it very seriously, but, ya know. There's only .. .I mean there's only one way out, ya know what I'm sayin, an that's with the fact of, ya know what I'm sayin, reversin the process of gettin back in .... of gettin in it, ya know what I'm sayin. You get yer beat down, ya know, an a lot a time people don't survive from that beat-down, ya know. They bold enough, they end up poppin you at the end, ya know. With me I didn't hafta go through that, ya know what I'm sayin, I went through the process of bein away from em an stayin away from em, they know where I live at, ya know what I'm sayin, so it don't bother me none, but, cuz they're family ya know. An, they respect the fact that I'm really tryinProject ta do somethin fer myself, I'm only 19 years old, ya know, I'm still tryin ta finish High School an make a career outa my life ya know. I experienced that part a my life, ya know. An, I think:, now that I think: about it, I'm kinda .. .I'm happy that I experienced that, in the distorted way I am, ya know, so. KC: If you weren't family, do you think: they would ...... because it sounds like they have allowed you to go into retirement. Society L: IfI wasn't family, they wouldn't even know whereResearch I was. Urn, they wouldn't know about...they wouldn't know nuttin about me right now. Cuz, I wouldn't have contact with em, ya know what I'm sayin. So, if they weren't family, I don't think: they would know where I was, what I was about, they wouldn't even take the time out lookin for me, so. KC: So other than a beat-down, where youGang probably gonna get killed, what I think: I hear you saying is the way to get out of the gang is to just fade away and disappear. L: Urn huh. It's the only way ta fly. Historical KC: Would anybody ever go out an look for someone if they just started not hanging around so much and disappeared?Youth L: I don't know. A lot a times no, cuz they're not worried about that person. __ that person owed em money or whatever, but a lot a time they don't even worry about em if he's been gone for so long, ya know what I'm sayin. Or, if somebody did somethin seriously than owed them money, ya know, poppin somebody else or whatever else, you never know, so .... a Minnesotalot a times, no they wouldn't even take the time out goin ta look for em. Ya know, they jus spend their time makin their money or whatever else, hustlin for theirs.Minnesota 111.53 KC: The lifestyle of the gang is making money. L: Urn huh. An, provin to yourself an others that your set ain't no chump, you ain't no chump, so don't try ta come up to us like I am a chump, ya know what I'm sayin. That's what it's basically about. KC: You played sports in High School. Any correlations between sports teams and gangs? L: It was, a lot of it was a team sport in the gang, ya know what I'm sayin. Ya got those people that was ... 1 mean you hung around people everyday that was from your set, ya

know what I'm sayin, an it was a team sport, cuz if you had that violent rage or somebody was startin with you, ya know what I'm sayin, it was a team thing, ya know what I'm sayin, you weren't mad, everybody else was mad, ya know what I'm sayin. They be there wich you ya know. Thas what I consider as a team thing, a lot, majority a the time it's a team thing. Cuz, ya never, a lot a time you're not by yourself If you feel pain, a lot a the people do too. So. KC: What was it like for you playing on High School teams? L: I don't know, I didn't care at the time, cuz I was gettin too high, ya know, it was jus like somethin that was there while I was in school, somethin easy ta do. KC: But now, last year you played on High School teams right? L: It was to fun. The pump or the adrenalin came when I was playin the games an when I was runnin an whatever else, cuz I was doin somethin that I loved taProject do, ya know. I was replacin a lot a that other stuff with the positiveness of piayin sports for High School, what I know I can excel in, ya know what I'm sayin, cuz I can do it, I'm good at it. An, iffelt good that I was able ta do it, so. KC: What sports did you play? L: I played, throughout my whole High School year, years, I played football, basketball an I went out for track. Society KC: Which one give you the most adrenalin rush? Research L: Football. Cuz ya get ta hit people an I get hit an I gotta run fer my life in order not ta get hit. It's what it consists of an I like that. KC: What else gives you the adrenalin rush? Where else to you get to get hit and get the adrenaline rush in healthy ways? Gang 114.31 L: I don't know. I don't do too much otherHistorical than those sports. I don't do anything at all. I don't fight, um ... .1 .. .1 don't create fights. I work a lot, I go to school a lot, so. I don't .. .1 don't do to much. Youth KC: So you haven't participated in anything other than High School sports? No kick boxing, no martial arts? L: The martial arts thing .... yeah. KC: Talk to me about that thing L: I don't know, it's fun.Minnesota Ya know what I'm sayin, it's somethin I'm very interested in becuz it's a different, it's .... mentally, it's all mental, ya know what I'm sayin. A lot of it's physicalMinnesota with the kicks an everything else but when ya get down to it, it's all mental, ya know, if you don't have it in yer head that you can do it, then ya can't do it, ya know. An, it's fun, ya know. Jus bein able ta go up to ... toward opponents, ya know what I'm sayin, an be able ta kick box legally, ya know, fight legally basically is what it is, ya know. An knowin that this is there for fun, ya know, an he didn't do nuttin to you an you didn't do nuttin ta him, ya know. Ya know in the end ya might become friends an ya know ya might not, but it's jus both sides knowin it's jus fun. KC: Is the adrenalin rush as extensive as being on the streets in the gang stuff? 116.--

L: Yeah cuz thas the only thing I have to resolve to. Ya know, an it makes me happy doin it. KC: Happier than when you were finding the ways on the street? L: Yep. Yep, cuz it's a lot more positive an it's somethin that I really wanna do, ya know, so. KC: You've spoken to some community groups, is there anything that the community can do to help change the gang life. I mean, I'm hearin you say - I've decided that I like my life better when I'm positive rather than being a gangster. Do you think that the community just accepts gangs and that there's a culture out there that says gangs are ok? 117.-- L: Yeah. I think, if, I don't know .. J think a lot a time if they quit watchin the TV gangs, ya know, which is a lot about shootin up, bang ... bang - this an that, ya know what I'm sayin, it's not all about that a lot a the time, ya know. Urn, I don't know,Project I think ah, ya know what I'm sayin, bein able ta show other gang members are willin ta get outa the gangs, ya know what I'm sayin, be able to help em get out, do positive things, I think that could detour em away in some senses, ya know. Show em that they have the capability of doin other things than goin out an committin violence an acts against others an themselves, so. KC: Do you think that young people have to be incarcerated beforeSociety they're willing to look at that? Before they would respond to the communityResearch or...... 117.58 L: I don't know, it depends on the person. They might be incarcerated, but they might not, ya know what I'm sayin, they might still go back out to the same kinda lifestyle, so it all depends on the person. They're notGang ready, they're jus not ready. KC: Was there a particular corner or a particular area where you did most of your work on? L: No. I think when I was done with one area,Historical I jumped to another area, ya know. So it wasn't one particular that I spent a lot a time on, ya know. IfI felt it wasn't good enough, I would move on an if itYouth ever came up again, I'd work on it, ya know. KC: Did you do most of your work in Columbia Heights or did you go to Minneapolis to sell or...... L: I went to the Cities an sold, an, I did a lot a the selling in the Citites, a lot a the selling in Columbia Heights. I sold a lot a weed in Coon Rapids an whatever else, so I was back an forth. Minnesota KC: Did you have a car? L: DoMinnesota I have a car or did I have a car? KC: Did you have a car, how did you get around? L: Homies. Ya know, my homies from the set. We'd go out an dump or whatever we felt like doin that day. KC: Define dump. L: Sell drugs. Urn, get rid a stuff an whatever. KC: I assume that you sold weed, crack, meth and anything that you could get your hands on? L: Urn, my major distribution was crack. I sold weed an I didn't really funk with any a that other stuff, cuz ah .. .it wasn't me, so I jus, ya know, I jus sold a Iota that dope an I sold

weed. KC: Did you find that after being out and selling and taking your chances and having the stress, that it was critical to get high? L: Urn ..... KC: Do you know what my question is? L: Yeah. No, I didn't...1 think, yeah, it was kinda like havin yer daily drink. Ya know, after havin yer hard day at work you wanna jus sit back an have a pop or somethin. Well, I jus felt like sittin back an havin a blunt or somethin, ya know, cuz it was so hard at work, I guess. So I know what cha mean, yeah. KC: What all drugs have you used? 120.32 L: I smoked ... my drug a choice was weed. Urn, I did LSD once an thatProject was it. An, I use ta drink. I'd get drunk every once in awhile an that was it. KC: How much did you drink and how much did you smoke and how often? L: I didn't drink too often, maybe twice a month I would drink, but ah ... an when I drunk, I got drunk, ya know, urn, I'd ya know I'd drink beers, but when I really got drunk it'd be hard liquor straight down. Bicardi 151, Tanger Ray, Gin, whatever. But, when I smoked I smoked everyday. I don't know, I'd probably go through Societyan ounce a week or so, thas how much I smoked. Research KC: Did you wake up an start smoking and basically just keep yourself high pretty much all day? L: Yeah. I smoked .. .I' d wake up, roll over, grab the blunt go down to the downstairs garage start smokin my blunt, cuz that was Gangthe best high a the day, an ... .1 don't know. Smoke before goin ta school, smoked in school. KC: If you had to go out and do some hard work,Historical the decision had been made to go jack somebody or do some major accumulation of goods, would you get high before or would you try to stay straight Youthso you'd be clear head? L: I'd be straight. Cuz, I think if! was high, probably have too much fun. I'd be straight. I'd have ta do it straight. KC: When you were out selling, were you straight our high? 122.17 L: Sometimes I was high.Minnesota Sometimes ..... majority a the time I wasn't. An, ya know what I'm saying, I'd jus sit down, sometimes I'd sit down, hey I'm in the mood for a sack I'd goMinnesota buy a sack, go buy a blunt. But, when I first, when I started out, ya know, ta start out the day ta go dump, I'd be sober. Then like in the middle a the day I'd smoke a blunt an go grab somethin ta eat then go back out. KC: Did the community ever try to do anything to stop you? I mean, was there ever a sense of - no, you can't be out here ...... L: No. None whatsoever. I mean, I've been .. .I've been so close that ..... one time I remember I was out dumpin an it was me an a friend a mine. An, ah ... was out there dumpin, I had a 8 ball on me. An, I got searched by the police an everything, ya know, I got patted down, but they didn't find the ball on me, ya know. Wiped my forehead an went about my day.

So, they never tried ta do anything, the people around, ya know. I jus went to the straight neighborhoods to where, ya know, there was no .... there was basically a lot a crack houses around, ya know what I'm sayin, not too many people cared or whatever else. 123.32 KC: So your attitude is people don't care and drug dealers can do whatever they want? L: Urn huh. Yep. Thas what it was. L: Yeah thas what I thought. Yeah, people .... we could do whatever the hell we want to, ya know what I'm sayin, we had the power at the time. Ain't nobody else gonna tell us what ta do, ya know. Thas the way I felt anyway. KC: You mentioned the police. What do you think: of the police? 124.10 L: I don't know. They do what they gotta do, we do what we gotta do.Project It's kinda the same thing, ya know. They ... they enforce the law, we'd disobey the law, ya know. I don't know what ta think: about em. KC: So they're just like a rival gang? L: In some sense, yeah. Ya know they try ta take you off the streets ta keep you from dom yer business, but, ya know, yeah .. .I'd say they kinda like a rival gang, ya know what I'm sayin. They're like the plunger that gets in the way, ya know,Society before you can end up making yer money at the end a the day, ya know,Research ya end up gotta runnin from somebody, ya know, they tryin ta catch ya or whatever, ya know, so. Yeah, I'd have ta say that they were, ya know, that they were your stoppers, those are the ones you hafta look out for. KC: Did you ever take them seriously? L: Nope. Never did. Care less about em.Gang KC: What could the police do. I mean if you were a cop or if you were a consultant to the police, and you really cared about stoppingHistorical this, what would you recommend? What could the police do to change the gang issue in Minnesota? L: I have no idea, I think:, Youthmy thoughts is they spend too much time, ya know I'm not tryin ta make it sound bad, but they spend too much time tryin ta basically research it an doin whatever else, in other words instead a goin out an takin the base of action, ya know what I'm sayin, tryin ta get inta the community an be like - bam, ya know, start talkin ta individuals, ya know what I'm saying, on a person ta person basis. Not on a, ya know, not on a authority figureMinnesota to ya know, whatever else ya know an not as an authority figure an thas what they need, I think:, asa person needs ta be done. KC: There'sMinnesota a term for that. It's called Community Policing. It's about getting to know people in the community. L: Urn huh. KC: Did you ever have police officers not act authoritarian towards you, but be friendly try to get to know you? L: Nope. They were a bunch a cocky little suckers. Nope. KC: What would have happened if one of them reached out, tried to be your friend? L: I'd be like what's up __ ya know, I wouldn't recent em at all, ya know what I'm sayin, I wouldn't push em away cuz ah you 50 Ho Ho's, ya know what I'm sayin. I wouldn't

get too close to em. KC: Why? L: Urn, I don't know. His spot in the world basically. What he's there for. He's probably tryin ta snitch me off whatever else, so I jus wouldn't get too close to him ya know. A lot a it be a external .... external relationship, ya know what I'm sayin. How ya don, waz up, say hi to em all the time, joke around with em on the streets whatever, but it wouldn't be nuttin serious. KC: An yet you said that maybe what police could do, would be to have one on one relationships. Is that with everybody else but you? L: Hey, thas what I ... thas what I would a seen it as, ya know, everybody else but me at the time. Project KC: Were there females in your gang? L: Urn, at the time that I joined, yeah. KC: What was the role of females in the gang? L: As anybody else, doin what they had ta do. They weren't treated different, they might, probably didn't do a lot a stuff that we did, but ya know, they weren't treated any different from the guys. They were at meetings, ya know what I'm sayin,Society dumpin with us, they was doin whatever we did a lot a the time, but someResearch of it wasn't so severe, I guess. KC: Were they beat-in to the gang? If they wanted to join were they beat-in? L: Yeah. That sex thing didn't believe in ... so. Ifthey were serious, they were beat-in, ya know. Somethin that they felt like playin around with, ya know. Whoever felt like playin around with ya know, they'd bring upGang that sex stuff thing, but if they were serious about it they'd get beat in, jumped in or whatever else. KC: You mean, some women were told that theyHistorical were being sexed in because you didn't really want them in the gang? L: Yeah. Didn't see too muchYouth potential, wasn't serious about it, more like whatever, ya kow what I'm sayin. I don't know. KC: Did you participate in beating in women? L: Did I? No, cuz I didn't believe in hittin women, so .. .I've never laid my hands on one. KC: Did you participate in sexing in women? 129.10 Minnesota L: Nope. I wasn't no where around. I didn't have no part a that. I wouldn't have no part a that.Minnesota Cuz, I thought it was dumb anyway, ya know what I'm saying. I didn't believe in that in the first place. Um . .I believe in sexual intercourse, but I didn't believe in doin nuttin like that, it was jus not me. Ya know, I'm thinkin about people thas contractin diseases out there, ya know what I'm sayin, it jus wasn't me at all, so. KC: But, I just need to clarlify. But, there were some women that were told that that was how they got into your gang and it was just a ploy to use them? L: Urn huh. Yep. KC: Were women more auxiliaries. I mean if you had a girlfriend, then did she get to hang around with the gang and help cook barbeques and stuff?

L: Urn huh. Everybody knew who she was, ya know what I'm sayin. I mean, she wasn't part a the set, but, ya know, they knew who she was ta have respect for her becuz she was with me, whatever else, or she was with somebody else ya know, they had respect for her, so. I mean, she'd be there with the homies, so she hang around us, but it wouldn't be nuttin severe, ya know what I'm sayin, so. KC: So was there a difference between the women that were kind oflike auxiliaries or wives, and the women that really wanted to be down? L: In my sense there was, yeah. Yeah, cuz they had more ... they had more connection with people that was in the sets then a lot a other people, ya know, they had ... they knew more, especially about the life that the other person was livin, ya know what I'm sayin. Cuz, they were in it, they experienced it, ya know, they experiencin it at the time, ya know what I'm sayin. An they basically were down for em because that was partProject of it. Ya know, saying they're down ta protect, ya know what I'm sayin, so. KC: What made the difference in women that truly wanted to be down? 131.11 L: They were there ... um, I mean they weren't, ya know what I'm sayin, they weren't flirts, ya know what I'm sayin, they jus ... J don't know how to explain it. They were basically tomboys you could say, I guess, thas the easiest way ta say Societyit, becuz they were there to do ... ta handle themselves, ya know what I'm sayin,Research didn't take no .... no crap from nobody else, ya know what I'm sayin. They understood the, ya know what I'm sayin, they understood the law, they understood the regulations of it, ya know what I'm sayin. That they don't get no special treatment becuz they're females an whatever else, ya know. An thas what they were willin ta take on.Gang So, ya know, they didn't act like no babies, put it that way. KC: How many women were fully members ofHistorical Tree Top Piru? L: Maybe five. Yeah, five or six. KC: Five or six out of twentyYouth five full members? L: Yep. KC: What ages were they? 132.16 L: Um ... sixteen ta probably nineteen. KC: What cultural background?Minnesota L: Urn, the majority of em African Amerian. Yeah, they were all African American, actually. KC: WhatMinnesota was one of the scariest experiences you ever had? L: The whole .... I never had a real specific one, I think. The whole gang was the biggest scariest experience I've ever had. Never had a specific, ya know, I think overall now that I look at it, the gang life was because I coulda died any day. Ya know, I coulda been terminated any day, I could be sittin in prison for life right now, ya know. I'm, ya know, I coulda killed somebody, ya know what I'm sayin. I think that was ... ya know, I didn't care. I think that was the scariest experience I've ever... I've ever had. KC: Not caring about life?

L: Yep. Caring about mine an nobody else's. Yeah. KC: Do you think you ever took anybody's? L: 1 don't know. Probably somebody probably got popped, but 1 don't think there life was eer taken from my hands, ya know. Might a injured somebody, but not taken a life. KC: What did you think I'd ask you that 1 haven't? L: 1 think you covered a lot of it. 1 think you covered the basis of it, ya know what I'm sayin. It got a little deeper than 1 expected. Urn .... all, ya know, 1 guess 1 can say that life is no joke, ya know what I'm sayin. It's the hardest life ta live. Some might say it's the easiest, but when you get down to it, it's the hardest one ta live, ya know. An,1 .... 1 wouldn't recommend that on my worst enemy, ya know. Cuz, it's all .. .it's all about leavin good feelins fer bad feelins, ya know what I'm sayin. You're actin out fear, ya know, you let fear run your life. An, thas what it's basically about, Projectya know. You're not carin for, an thas the big problem, you don't care. An thas what you run off of, ya know, you could die any day. So, 1 don't..J don't condemn that on anybody. KC: How do we get people to care? 135.06 L: Show em care. Let them know that there are people who do care out there, ya know what I'm sayin. A lot of it is jus people that sit there an yell at emSociety all day or, ya know, takin em in, ya know what I'm sayin, they see the bad partResearch a the care, 1 guess. They think that cuz police officers are arrestin em an bustin em, ya know what I'm sayin. Somebody snitched on em cuz they don't care, ya know what I'm sayin. They tryin ... .jus tryin ta get em in trouble, but in the long run, they do ya know, they gotta get past that criminal mentality that everybody's against him or, ya Gangknow, you're against the world, ya know what I'm sayin. Thas how ya get somebody ta care. Ya take the time out an bein able ta do it helpin that person. Historical KC: What else do you have to say? L: Nothin. Youth KC: Thanks, Low-B. 136.01

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