Episode 53 Sports (with Daniel Dopp) 1
Nate: The first time I ever punched a kid in the face was at church of all places. Great place, right? We used to play these pick up football games after church service on Wednesday night. And this kid Matt [Feenstra], I still remember his name, tackled me from behind and started to pound on me. And I flipped him off my back, turned around, and swung as hard as I could and didn’t know I hit him.
Sunday morning, he rolls into church with the biggest black eye I’ve ever seen. And I was like, “Oh dang, I did that?” You know? So first guy I ever punched was because of a football game. Didn’t even know I punched him. It was at church, pretty funny story there.
Matt: Conflict and conquest right there in the house of the Lord.
Nate: That’s the only time I’ve ever decked somebody and it was over a football game, man. You’re a football fan yourself, so.
Matt: I know, that’s why you think it’s violent and should be shut down.
Nate: No, no. I just thought it was funny. It’s just like most of my like trouble was at church, you know what I mean? I have all these memories of doing bad things at church. It’s just kind of ironic.
That’s what makes us so messed up, that’s why we talk a lot about being bitter and stuff. But sports!
Back in the day – way, way back – in 2500 B.C. –
Matt: This was like before gladiators and stuff.
Nate: The sport known as “The Ball Game” –
Matt: Hmm. Take Me Out to the Ballgame.
Nate: The Ball Game. But it was played by all major civilizations from the Olmecs to the Aztecs. The impressive stone courts became a staple feature of the city’s sacred complex. And there were often several courts in a single city.
The object of this game was to get a rubber ball through a large round stone ring about 8 meters high without using your hands.
Matt: Wait, they had rubber?
Nate: That’s what it says, when I did my research, it was like a rubber.
Matt: Bronze Age people had rubber.
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Nate: They had like a rubber latex ball. They had one.
Matt: Interesting.
Nate: It was kind of heavy and it could actually hurt you. But nobody really knows what the rules were, but they kind of knew the consequences.
Matt: So more than just a game, the event could have religious significance and featured in episodes in Mesoamerican mythology. So as games often had religious significance, the captain of the losing team or even sometimes the entire team, were sacrificed to the gods.
The classic Maya even invented a parallel game where captives once defeated in the real game were tied up and used as balls themselves and unceremoniously rolled down a flight of steps. (laughs)
Nate: Isn’t that funny? So you lose this game, you die, and then you become the ball in the next game to your death.
Matt: Man, it’s like the circle of life. (laughs)
Nate: Human beings are definitely, I think we’re progressing towards a little bit less violent culture. Would you ever engage in a soccer match to the death, Matt?
Matt: No. I’d want to check their concussion protocol first. (laughs)
Nate: We’re pretty wimpy these days.
Matt: Welcome to Don’t Feed The Trolls where we root, root, root for the home team without smashing a bottle of Jim Beam. Sometimes I like to smash a bottle of Jim Beam. I think it’s okay as long as it’s not on someone’s head.
Nate: Yeah, but if it’s on someone’s head or, you know, just because your team lost, you’re ready to go. Ready to fight. But we have some Troll Mail. You want to read that, Matt?
Matt: Sure. So this is from Luke. “So I should start by saying that I’m actively trying to starve my inner trolls on a regular basis. But I think I’m still coming up short.” Yeah me too, Luke. Don’t worry. “With that in mind, I do have a question. I’m a runner but I tend to get annoyed when other runners who are posting about it on social media all the time. One of my friends, a fellow runner, is currently training and fund raising for a project called blank.” I blanked it.
“They work and provide dignified jobs in Haiti rather than just giving money or fixing things. I like the idea behind this, but I’m having trouble getting on board with their fundraising. She is the type of runner that drives me nuts. In her mind, a
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run didn’t happen if she didn’t post about it or take a picture. I know that’s my problem, not a problem with her but with all that in mind, she’s running across Haiti next month as a part of this team. And that in itself does not bother me. What does bother me is that her fundraising goal is $4,000.00. I find myself frustrated with that dollar amount. I think she could just run here and donate all the money to that organization. Big part of my frustration is the problem with me. I get annoyed with the attention that she receives and the accolades that she gets for her quote unquote heart for Haiti. But I also legitimately think the funds could be distributed better.”
Yeah, Luke, you’re a troll. No, I’m just kidding. That’s actually – Nate and I were talking about this. It’s a really good topic for a podcast because I feel like so many people are raising money for what they believe are good causes. Like, “Hey, I need a new laptop. Or I would like a guitar. This will really help my life. Could you give me money?”
And that’s just weird for me and Nate, who came from the good old days when you exchanged goods and services for money. (laughs) So we thought we might do a podcast on that. But thanks for bringing that up and, I don’t know, Nate you have anything to, any advice for Luke. And how to handle that troll of –
Nate: I think we all have that troll in different ways. I think anyone who’s promoting their life on social media, there’s a certain personality I think it bugs people. Self- promoters, or like selfie people. It’s hard –
Matt: (laughs) “Look what I’m doing! It’s so good! I’m so good!”
Nate: Yeah, I mean everyone’s always raising money for some cause. It’s a tough world in that regard. Just a lot of nonprofits. A lot of stuff. Who knows what goes where. We talked about that in Slacktivism episode a little bit.
Matt: Yeah. I raised money to go to India. And it was a short term, you know, charity trip with a bunch of other people. And I don’t know, we played with kids and like painted a room and didn’t do much, so. But it did change me in like a positive way. I mean, even though I was the beneficiary of other people’s generosity I feel like people should raise their own money by working. (laughs) Those are vacations you know?
Nate: Support us, our charity here at Don’t Feed The Trolls. (laughs)
Matt: Help us talk into a microphone, it’s going to be so good for the world. (laughs)
Nate: Yeah, that was a great transition there. No, but we work really hard to make this show happen and we have 78 awesome patrons who contribute every month to this podcast and keep it going. We are ad free, which means you don’t have to
Don’t Feed The Trolls Podcast Episode 53 Sports (with Daniel Dopp) 4
listen to any junk or fluff. And that’s because you guys are slowly chipping in over the months, more and more people.
So if you’d like to help out this podcast and donate to our charity, LOL, you can do so at Patreon.com/dontfeedthetrolls. We have some exclusive stuff there and we also have an exclusive show that we’re rolling out almost every episode. We’re going to have an exclusive show there of Matt and I riffing back and forth.
I would like to welcome Drew Douglas to the team. Thanks, Drew. Drew gave us ten bucks a month and that’s awesome. Drew is one of the few who love this show so much they feel like, “Hey, I’m going to drop in a little bit.”
So, yeah, that being said, that’s our shameful plug. And after our riff on people asking for money, we know it’s ironic.
Matt: Welcome, Daniel Dopp, good buddy of ours. Why don’t you start by letting people know kind of a bit of your backstory and what you do now for your job?
Daniel: Sure. I’m really excited to be here, by the way. Big fan. So thank you guys for having me on. A bit of my backstory. So I am a podcast producer for ESPN and so I get to sports all day, every day.
Matt: Sportsing!
Daniel: Yep, which is a ton of fun. And I’m super blessed with the way that a lot of things have worked out for me to put myself in this position. So I get to work with Matthew Berry, Field Yates, Stephania Bell on the Fantasy Focus Football podcast. Which is a ton of fun if you love fantasy football. I get work with Bill Barnwell and Mina Kimes, both of who are just brilliant writers. And I get to do a show with them with The NFL Related. And then I also get to work with Adam Schefter, we just launched his show. And so I get to produce Adam’s show, which has just been a ton of fun.
Matt: That’s huge, man!
Daniel: It’s a blast. It is a blast and it is a fantastic opportunity that I am really excited to have the opportunity to have.
Matt: So you’re out there in Bristol, Connecticut. Or that’s at least where you work.
Daniel: Yeah, Bristol is where ESPN is headquartered and so that’s where I work. And then we live around the area.
Matt: Yeah, Kristie and I, my wife and I had the good fortune of playing a living room show in your basement of your new show, right? So we’re familiar, we come through, we hang out.
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So Nate had the idea for this podcast and so I’ll let Nate take the floor when it comes to what we’re going to ask you about sports trolls. (laughs)
Nate: Let me just throw out a sports fact, just to lighten that mood a little bit. There has never, ever been anyone who’s predicted the Final Four –
Matt: Are you serious?
Nate: Nobody has every picked the tournament correctly.
Daniel: Mathematically, that’s really difficult to do.
Matt: What is it like one in seventeen billion or something?
Nate: It’s some crazy – because I mean you’ve got sixty-four different teams and there’s always some upset that nobody is ever thinking about.
Matt: And it’s college so there’s always an upset.
Nate: Which I think is – you know I’m not a huge basketball fan even though I played basketball in high school. I held a rebound record at my high school until two years ago.
Matt: (laughs) You were dethroned at thirty-five.
Nate: I was dethroned at thirty-five. They sent me my plaque in the mail. I was like, “I don’t care, toss this in the can.”
Daniel: What was that rebound record by the way?
Nate: Twenty-five rebounds in one game.
Daniel: Wow.
Matt: Oh, single game record. Did you ever get a double-double? Or was it just that one stat?
Nate: Well, no, I actually did it my junior and senior year. I almost beat it my senior year. But I actually did that my junior year.
Matt: So do you have hops?
Nate: I was just really good at predicting where the ball went and I had bigger legs than anybody else so I could push them out of the way. Get low.
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Matt: Right, you had some girth.
Nate: Like it’s all just about predicting, “Where’s that ball going to be?” And then get the girth going.
Matt: Get the girth going, clear the area.
Nate: So that’s me. I think college basketball is great, I don’t like the NBA. It’s just too much for me to get into, but all that to be said, the deadliest riot in our lifetime. I guess in the last hundred years – this is a weird transition, but – occurred in 1964 –
Matt: This is what Nate loves to do. He goes, like we have a topic it’s like, “How many people have died because of this topic? Like what’s the most amount of people that die from selfies?” Like Nate will look up that stat. Like how much death has this caused, this issue of fanship, or sports teams?
Nate: Which is funny, because I don’t think soccer is that bad. I mean for humanity.
Matt: Oh the hooligans and the riots, man?
Nate: Well I mean it’s definitely crazy, but in 1964 there was a match between Peru and Argentina. Peru was down by one heading into the final minute when a goal that should have tied the game was disallowed inciting fans to storm the field in a fit of rage. Police launched tear gas, hundreds of fans tried to flee, they were crushed. Three hundred and twenty people killed.
Matt: And just to quote Eric Simons, the writer of Secret Lives of Sports Fans, it’s a book. He says, “A sports team is an expression of a fan’s sense of self. It’s not an obnoxious affectation when a devotee uses the word ‘we.’ It’s a literal confusion in the brain about what is ‘me’ and what is ‘the team.’”
So you guys know this, like you’re a fan of a team. And when your team does good, you say, “We won. We played well in the fourth quarter.” And when they do bad, we distance ourselves. We go, “They. They played like shit. They played so bad.”
Daniel: Interesting.
Matt: And it’s this psychological thing, your brain is literally tricking yourself into thinking that that team is an extension of your identity. And I think that’s kind of where we get lost. But I guess, Daniel, you’re whole business depends on people doing that, right? To some extent.
Nate: You’re whole livelihood.
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Daniel: Here’s what weird about it. I mean, do you guys do that with your teams? Do you say, “We?”
Nate: Yes.
Matt: Yeah, I say, “we.”
Daniel: So I do too, I’m a Detroit sports fan. I’m a Lions fan, a Tigers fan, a Pistons fan. And I’ve always said “we.” And I think for me it’s the though process of, “I invest so heavily into something. I get it, I’m not out there on the field, I’m not in the locker room, but emotionally I have just as much invested into whatever sport it is as the people that are out there playing.”
And sometimes I actually feel like I have more invested in it.
Matt: You’re like doing push-ups in the off season and like – (laughs)
Daniel: Yeah, it’s like, “Come on, guys.” So we always talk about that. I always say, “we,” there’s always that conversation of –
Matt: What about when they lose? You should watch next time like when Detroit lost to Seattle. Did you say, “They played terribly?” Do you distance yourself from their failure or just accept their –
Daniel: No, I mean, I always say “we.” I always say, “We played badly.” But I totally understand distancing yourself because I mean I think there’s a certain type of fan that does that. I mean fandom is a strange thing.
Matt: So weird.
Daniel: It ranges so vastly from the kind of fandom that you have. And so for me personally, I really thing that the kind of fan that says, “we,” there is definitely something about you that make you different than the normal sport watcher. You’ve taken it to a new level than not everyone wants to do.
Nate: Yeah, because I’ve been called out by my friends. Like they’ll say that, “We? Us? Who are you? Are you on the team?” And I’m like, “Shut up, man.”
Matt: (laughs) “They’re an extension of my identity. I root for them.”
Nate: In 2014 I think watched almost every single Giants game up to the World Series. And then it came down to Game 7, the last pitch. So you’re talking a six month investment into this team. I was like ready to, I literally dove out on my back lawn and rolled around when they won. I was so excited. But it was –
Matt: Does it have any cosmic impact? Does it have any real meaning?
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Nate: No.
Matt: Like, I guess human conquest and metaphor and story and myth, like those things like we all – you know, the Greeks had their heroes and their stories. And they had gladiators and such. Like there’s a human evolutionary need, clearly, for heroes, right?
Nate: Yes.
Matt: Does that help us progress? Does that really take us to the next level as humans? Or are we just regressing back to our savage selves?
Nate: Matt, the one constant through all the years, Matt, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard. Rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, it’s part of our past, Matt. It reminds us that all that once was good could be good again. Oh, people will come, Matt. People will most definitely come.
Matt: The Mariners were once good, so they can be good again. Is that what you’re saying?
Nate: They can. Donald Trump rode that all the way to the White House.
Matt: Is that from a movie? Where is that from? Field of Dreams?
Nate: Yeah, that’s from Field of Dreams. And I think that’s why I like baseball because it has something outside of, it has something different to me.
Matt: I think it mirrors life pretty well. Like, I like the play by play action of a football game because it’s just like head down, everybody, all the gears got to work perfect. And then boom, it’s done and then you huddle back up.
But baseball season is really long. And there’s a lot of ups and downs. And there’s a lot of innings and there’s a lot of crap that can happen. And in that way it sort of reflects life. And I think that’s why when I meet baseball fans like you, Nate, or our buddy Aaron Lunsford, I mean, they are insane about their worship of that sport.
Daniel: Well baseball is so difficult because it’s such a long season that if you decide that you’re going to go through all hundred and sixty-two games, it’s a different kind of investment. I mean football you’re talking about four preseason games and then sixteen games.
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I mean, the thing is I think football fans appreciate their season more than baseball fans do because it’s so short. It’s like, “I get four months and then my sport is done.” Whereas baseball it just seems to last centuries.
Matt: Yeah, it mirrors life. It’s a slog. It goes on and on and on.
Nate: What football player position has the longest career on average?
Matt: Kicker.
Daniel: A kicker.
Nate: Punter.
Matt: Oh, punter. Well yeah, they both kick don’t they?
Nate: It’s like four point six years! Football’s tough because you can like a baseball team and you can see a guy on a team for twelve years play for your team. And football you’re turning over players constantly.
Matt: Yeah, that long-term Para social relationship. Unless it’s with like the quarterback that’s been there fifteen years or something like that.
Daniel: Like, Matt, you asked a question sort of facetiously I think about the idea of is there any kind of cosmic relevance to this when it comes to sports or some greater thing. I mean, yes, sports is just that. It’s entertainment, it’s nothing to live or die over. But I do feel – and this is not to put any one specific city down or say that one team is better than another – but absolutely I think when you look through the history of the NBA or the NFL, or major league baseball, or hockey, there are certain cities at certain times that just need that escape.
Matt: New Orleans after Katrina.
Daniel: Absolutely. And what the Saints did because of that.
Matt: The Patriots after 9/11. I mean those were like, that’s incredible parody, right? Like it just –
Nate: The Red Sox after the Boston Bombing.
Daniel: And it’s one of those things that it’s, you know, that sport is more than just we’re all getting together to watch a team that we want – it’s that, you know it’s very similar to music I think in that sense of there’s a comradery and we’re all here because we share the same thing that means so much to us that we dedicate so much of our time.
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I mean, even more than music. You talk about fans that come out to see your guys’ bands. This would be like if you played shows and every night someone tuned in to watch you across, you know, how many times would you do that?
What I watch – no offense to The Classic Crime or to Sherwood – but if you guys broadcast a hundred and sixty-two show throughout the year, how many times would I tune in to watch the same show over and over and over again?
Matt: Well, there’s just some many different variables and outcomes to each game. It’s like if I played a different guitar part every time. Dan, you said something about common ground, which I think is really important.
You know at these times that these cities have something critical, something often tragic happen. And then there’s just the team becomes the metaphor for their comeback. The pride of the city. And there is some sort of communal thing.
And I think in today’s world we’re so much more isolated than we normally are from our neighbors. We don’t have much common ground, we don’t have much in common. Maybe it is a very good thing that at least we have our sports team. That at least we can look across, you know, the bus and see somebody in a jersey and immediately have something in common with them.
Nate: So what is it though, like at the end of the day, is it a good thing? I see some people who, their whole life is their sports. That’s all they post about, they’re flying across the country to go to the games, and it’s what they wear. They decorate their lawn in green paint, I’m speaking of Green Bay fans right now.
You know, there’s a point where I go, “Okay I’m a huge Giants fans, but I’m not going to get a tattoo. I’m just not going to do it. I’m not going to spray paint my front yard. I might take a photo in the shirt with my baby and be like, ‘Look it!’” But that’s where it gets a little like, okay. Do you know what I’m saying? Like where does it cross the line and when does it get weird?
Matt: The Giants’ success is still an extension in your own brain, you’ve tricked your own brain to experience their success as your success and their failure as your failure. And so you ride their – the outcome of their games dictates your emotions to some extent.
And so while there’s the benefits to wearing the Giants jersey and the Bay area and just kind of, “Hey! Hey!” pointing at all your friends that you don’t know. You don’t know anything about them, you just know that you have something in common and you like that about them.
That is good, but when you’re at home alone and like screaming at your kids to shut up because your team’s losing (laughs) like that would be the down side, right?
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Daniel: I mean, I really feel like there are a couple different levels to that question. Where to me it’s, “How did you grow up? What was your household like? Did you have a father that was a sports fan, that you as a son – or it could be your mom – but you as a child wanted to emulate your parent because you looked up to them so much.”
And so, you know, my dad watched Detroit sports and so I want to stay up late as a six year old and watch the Pistons game. I can’t tell your how many Pistons games I fell asleep watching with my father. And I don’t care how bad the Pistons are, there’s always going to be that emotional tie to them because it will always be something that my dad and I did.
And so when you talk about getting a tattoo or you talk about doing this you know, from your house, you know to me it’s so much more than the sport. One, just from a family aspect – if I break it down from that standpoint.
And I also think understanding – you know, music is so personal in people’s lives and they decide a lot of times, you know some people carry music and they don’t really move on. And it’s, you hear the right song, or the right band at the right time in your life and it really touches you in a way that nobody else does. And you know, sports does that in the same way, I think. Depending on what’s going on, it’s a place you can find belonging with another group of people when you are searching for something in your life.
And so if you have a couple of friends that are Giants fans and you’re a nerdy guy that lives in, you know, Nebraska, but you’ve met two other Giants fans just randomly when you’re out. Like, “Okay, here’s this thing that I can now tie to.” And there’s this sense of belonging with this community that I have established.
And it is so much more than just the sport or the team or anything like that. The roots of sports are so much deeper than what is on the surface level of the players on the field.
Matt: It goes beyond just sports. What team are you on? That could be your religion, your political party. I mean, there was all this talk this election season about identity politics. Your politics being an extension of your identity. To the point that which you can’t even be presented with facts, like stats. Or anything that will – because you have to self-preserve your identity at correct or your identity as “Our team is the best.”
Nate: That’s so true. That’s a huge part of like, how I feel like I was raised, there was just this black and white way of thinking. And you did this, can’t deviate.
Matt: In this article I was reading on Washington Post, he was talking about how New England Patriots fans were like constantly deflecting the Deflate Gate Scandal. It
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was their instinct to like explain and rationalize, because it was self-preservation, they’re protecting their identity. The identity or the image of the franchise, the identity or image of the quarterback and Belichick and all that. If they were to let their guard down and receive information that might have pointed to the fact that there was some sort of conspiracy and maybe there was intent to cheat in some way, then that’s like their whole world comes crashing down because it’s their own identity too. You know?
Nate: That’s what I love about baseball, you’re allowed. You’re supposed to cheat, you know what I mean?
Daniel: Oh yeah, if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying.
Nate: It’s such a hard game, you have to do everything. Like Ken Burns’ Baseball just goes back to the beginning when they were rubbing tobacco juice on the ball to get it all black so you couldn’t see it and they’d throw it in. And you know, just digging their spikes into people, and doing anything they could to get the edge.
Matt: Yeah, well I say Julio Jones catch a football with his thumb and his index finger. And it was a bullet. And I was like, “There’s no way he doesn’t have some sort of tar, molasses, super glue on his gloves. He has super glue on there.”
Nate: I think that’s interesting though, we could talk about cheating a little bit. Like everyone gets so obsessed. Like everyone ripped Barry Bonds a new one because the steroid era and all that went down. And Deflate Gate and all this different stuff. I always think if it’s such a big deal, there should be something in place that’s bigger than the player or bigger than the team.
Like if you can deflate footballs and get away with it, then deflate footballs! Like why isn’t the NFL supplying these footballs? I don’t understand. Why isn’t there some third party –?
Matt: I’m sure they are now.
Nate: Who’s regulating the footballs?
Daniel: It’s like a non-partisan third party.
Nate: I know. It’s like if you don’t want the steroids to be a big issue, test all the – and now they do – they test all the players. But they didn’t. I think testing started for football in like the 80s, but it didn’t for baseball until like 2000s.
Matt: But you know that there was the rumors of steroid use, but the fans of those teams –
Nate: But they were making so much money.
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Matt: Well what I’m saying is the fans of those teams would never accept those rumors, would always defend their hero without taking into account that –
Nate: Oh everyone knows that Barry Bonds was juicing.
Matt: Yeah and even after they come out and admit it’s like, “No, they didn’t cheat, that was all skill.” That’s the identity that they’re self-preserving.
Nate: Yeah. I think at the end of the day though, cheating is a part of sports. It just is. And to take away like Armstrong’s – because he was doping – it’s like, he still had to win the Tour de France. I mean, I don’t –
Daniel: Barry Bonds still has to hit a baseball. Okay so he’s gotten twice as big as he was, but that doesn’t mean that his hand eye coordination is any better. You’ve still got to be able to actively track the baseball out of a hand and taking steroids doesn’t mean that I can hit a slider any better than I used to before I toke steroids.
I mean some guys just - I agree with you and I think cheating is a part of sports. But there is certainly something to, I really feel like the four major sports, they don’t want people to get caught. I mean when it comes to the NFL and their drug testing. Drug testing opens on April 20th, and you can insert whatever joke you want, but on 4-20 drug testing starts. And everybody knows it. And once you get tested, you are no longer tested for the rest of the NFL season.
That doesn’t mean that you’re going to be tested right away. But if you’re smart as a football player, after you get tested you can smoke all the weed or do all the whatever that you want after you’re done with your drug test for the rest of the year and the NFL will not bother you. Because they don’t want you to be caught be for them it makes their image look bad. It’s not just about you.
Matt: Yeah and because fans wrap their own identities up in these heroes that they prop up as perfect, when you start tarnishing those heroes’ images, those fans if they can’t deny it anymore are going to distance themselves from those heroes and those teams and those franchises. Because their image is, their self-esteem rides on the image of those players and those franchises.
Nate: That is interesting that the moral behavior of the athlete is important on top of their athletic ability. Like, “Oh, Barry Sanders was the best running back of all time. Also the most humble of all running backs ever.” You know what I mean?
Matt: But it’s only because we value morality ourselves. And because the player or the franchise is a project of our own identity in our mind, then we add all of this, with our Para social relationship, we add all of this pressure on that.
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It’s the same thing with music fans. Add the pressure on the band guy to be a certain way because he’s an extension of like my best self. And he can’t also do these things.
Daniel: So I just had Further Seems Forever come through a couple months ago and I did a podcast with them at ESPN. And Jason Gleason was with them who did the How to Start a Fire record. And I told Jason, “I remember seeing you in Detroit, at St. Andrew’s Hall. And as a young Christian at the time – young as in young in age, not a young Christian – I saw you smoking a cigarette outside and I was so disappointed that I saw you smoking a cigarette.”
And it’s like, I equated this morality to if you smoke a cigarette, then that affects whether or not you’re a real Christian or not a Christian or however you want to –
Matt: Yeah, yeah, that’s what you were told. Yeah. It’s all taught.
Daniel: Right. Or once I realized that, you know, bands swear, everybody swears. Everyone does it. And that’s one of those things that there’s a morality to it. But I think that’s relaxed a little bit and there are some things – like nobody cares if a sports player gets caught with marijuana anymore. I really don’t think, other than the fact that they’re like, “Just be smart about it, man. Like stop being so stupid, you’re wasting millions of dollars, you’re hurting the team. But that’s different than like if it’s a domestic violence thing.
Or pick another thing that’s a bigger deal that’s actually a black eye to the team, to the player, to the sport. But I think there are some things that people just don’t care about.
Tell me, I’m interested to know from you guys, when I look at – you know, this was a movie, so I know this wasn’t real – but when I look at Rudy, right? That was a working class family - the Notre Dame football - that was a working class family that was extremely blue collar. But they had all sorts of Notre Dame football gear that they would spend their expendable income on, they would go to games. That’s what they chose to be able to invest in, because that was their escape.
And for me, growing up in Detroit – growing up in Michigan – the bad boys, you know the Pistons of 1988 through 91, when we won a couple championships –
Matt: I have those cards, man. I have those cards still.
Daniel: And they embraced everything that was so hard working, blue collar, we don’t need that show time LA b.s. And it’s just like you took on –
Matt: Besides Rodman.
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Daniel: Right. Well, except for that. But they took on the persona of what that team, what that city is, that everyone just wanted to accept them as, “You’re one of us. I don’t care that you make so many more millions of dollars, I see the way that you’re doing this and you’re one of our city now.” And you embrace that.
Matt: That’s kind of all of Detroit. These are hardworking people, and they are loyal and they put a lot of faith in their team. And like when you meet these people, you hang out with these people, and you play for these people, you can’t help but respect them.
And a city definitely does have, there’s some psychology there that happens within just the inner workings of a team and how it relates to the general public of that city.
Nate: What do you think about cities that have the exact opposite? Where it feels like, “Man, that team is just lame. The city’s lame.” Why does it always feel like it’s Los Angeles? Why does it always feel like, you know, because I grew up in Sacramento. So when the Kings and the Lakers, I think in 99, 2000, when they were always battling in the playoffs and then we lost –
Daniel: Was that the Chris Webber era?
Nate: Yeah. And the Lakers beat us on like a three point shot at the buzzer. Like twice.
Matt: Jason Kidd.
Nate: And yeah, it was Jason Kidd, Volte Divac, Peja Stojakowic.
Matt: That was a good team.
Nate: Yeah and we sucked forever. My whole life the Kings just sucked. And then we got so close and then it was like, I was going to Cal Poly which is on the central coast of California where everyone from LA or Northern California collided at school. And it was Northern California versus Southern California. And that was the year when like NorCal t-shirts were everywhere. Everyone was representing their part of the state. And like it was just always the fraternity bros that were wearing the Lakers gear. And it was so hard not to hate those people.
Matt: Not to judge them. Well, that’s the thing. At what point can we look across – I’m using the bus metaphor because I’ve had some experiences on buses – but when you look across, because you know, you’re facing people often. You look across, you see someone in that rival, in Packers gear, Daniel, is it just a dream to look at them and go, “They’re just like me.” To have that respect, that mutual respect? Or is it just like on this basic sort of like evolutionary in-group, out-group level, “They’re on the out-group, screw them, they’re team sucks.” Or can you strike up a conversation and be like, “Well, you guys really put it to us this year.”
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I don’t know. Is that even like reasonable to try to get to as a society? (laughs)
Daniel: I think so. When I look at it, I grew up in Michigan. Detroit sports fan through and through. I will never leave my team. I do wonder about the psychology of people that grow up in states or cities that don’t have sports teams. I mean I had all four major sports there. So I have those teams that I’ve identifies with my whole life.
If I grew up in a city that didn’t have a football team, or a state that didn’t have a football team, I just wonder psychologically is that bond as strong where I grew up? Because you got to pick and choose where you wanted –
But, all that to say when I see someone in a Packers jersey, or a Vikings jersey, or even a Patriots jersey – because I live in the northeast – I see somebody that I immediately can talk about something that I love with. I’m not that, you know, that dick that decides, “I hate you because you like a team that I hate.”
And those people that take it too far or the, you know, the people that get drunk and get into fights after the game. And it’s like, “Man, I don’t understand. We’re all supposed to be here because we love this one thing. So how did this happen?”
Matt: Well and then also, I mean, if you take – and what you’re talking about it taking a bigger step back. So on the micro you’re like, “I am a Detroit Lions football team, like fan.” And the Detroit Lions would really like to beat the Green Bay Packers and they can’t seem to like win the division and the Green Bay Packers are like the bane of our existence. And at that level, then yes, the fan wearing the Green Bay Packers jersey, they kind of embody your enemy. They embody that thing that you want to defeat.
But you take a step back and just go, “I like football. I like NFL Football.” Then you can look at that person in that NFL football jersey from that, you know, further away viewpoint and say, “We both fall under the same umbrella.”
Nate: Yeah, the same umbrella. We’re all humans, eat animals that are pumped full of steroids every day and we don’t care. And yet when our athletes are pumped full of steroids, everyone freaks out.
Daniel: I mean I sort of view it like, I mean I look at it from the standpoint of you know, even Jesus ate with tax collectors, right? So me as a Lions fan, who I would equate to Jesus in this standpoint -
Matt: Yes, of course. (laughs)
Daniel: I can still find common ground with a tax collector, I mean Packers fan.
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Matt: Well, that’s one way of looking at it, too. But like I’m thinking if you take a step back, so there’s people who are at odds with different religions. So let’s say some Christians are really afraid and don’t trust and don’t like Muslim people. And so they go, “Our religions are at odds.”
But if you take a step back, you go, “Hey, we’re both devout religious people. We can both commune on that level. What sort of religious practices do you – oh, do you meditate? I meditate too.”
So what I’m saying is, if you have a deeper perspective, if you step out of your own ego and your own self-identity, you can always find something in common with somebody.
Nate: Yeah, that seems like a huge theme in our podcast is constantly, Matt, you’re always pushing the point of like, “We’re all human beings at the end of the day.” You’re always trying to level it out and get us to see, you know, how we’re all human beings.
And I’m always trying to say, “This is how things are crazy. This is how we’re killing each other.”
Matt: It’s a good balance. (laughs) We strike a good balance.
Nate: You know what I mean? But I agree with you, I really do. I think that is the hardest part of being a human being in our society when you’re supposed to pick a side. You’re supposed to pick a team.
Matt: Or top two, yeah.
Nate: It’s almost like everything is stacked against that. Yeah, you’re taught at a young age, “You got to pick a side, got to pick a team.”
Matt: Well you don’t want to be one of those fair weather fans, just jumping on the bandwagon.
Daniel: Ugh, I hate that.
Matt: Society tells you right away, “Pick or choose your side. And stick with it.”
Nate: But I think of that Rudy movie and I think of Rudy’s best friend in the film who’s the quarterback, whose dad was the All American and he didn’t even want to play football. You know? And Rudy’s just this 140 pound nothing. And all he wants to do is play football. And at the end, you know, he tells him not to quit. He’s like, “You’re the only reason I haven’t quit yet.” You know?
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And there is something, there is a Rudy in all of us. I don’t care if you hate sports, you can’t not watch that story of Rudy Ruettiger and not cheer for him when he goes out and – especially when he gets the tackle and he gets carried off the field.
Daniel: I want to know, here’s one question I have for you guys. Are the Olympics different than regular sports? I mean, if you’re talking about, you know we had talked about how you say “we.” Like, I’m talking about the United States.
Is it different if I say, you’re looking at Usain Bolt running for Jamaica? If I am somebody in the United States with a sprinter and I say, “Oh man, we have a great team this year, we have a great whatever.” Because that’s a country identity, is that different to you than – because it’s the entire nation coming together – than individualized pockets in the United States forming around these teams?
Matt: I mean, based on what I’ve read, your brain is doing the same things. It’s an extension of your identity as an American. To chant – I mean I never chant USA unless it’s the Olympics. Because it’s like –
Daniel: You just don’t break into USA chants all around.
Matt: Yeah, how can you not be patriotic? It’s like, “Those are our best athletes of our entire country!” I mean we got to root for them.
Nate: Or if there’s more implications on the line, like the Miracle on Ice story of the hockey game. You know against the Soviet Union. Where it’s like two ideologies competing in this hockey game. You know? And the Americans win this game and it’s like probably the most famous game of all time and it means that freedom will out. Freedom is better than communism.
Matt: You can’t manufacture a better team than freedom can, man.
Nate: Yeah, everyone loves the underdog, everyone loves that story. What are, like what is your favorite underdog story, Daniel? And can you tell us some crazy fan stories too? I want to hear, because you’ve interacted with sports people way more than we have, I want to hear a couple of good stories.
Daniel: Well I think one of my biggest underdog stories was the 2004 Detroit Pistons. It was Chauncey, Rip, Tayshaun, Rasheed Wallace, and Ben Wallace when we were taking on the quote unquote Hall of Fame Lakers or Coby, Shaq, Gary Payton, Carl Malone, and some other scrub they threw in the lineup.
And it was like the epitome of these superstars versus the role-players. You know, the Hall of Famers versus these guys. And to me for us to go in there and beat the Lakers 4-1, was just such a fantastic thing. It was like, you don’t need to pay for all of this and, “Oh sorry you guys spent so much money and we’re just better than you. Sorry about that.”
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Matt: They’re playing money ball with the role-players.
Daniel: Right, no big deal.
Matt: You guys just went all Teen Wolf on them and just took them down.
Daniel: Little bit, no big deal. I do think it’s weird though with sports that, like I would never say that like, you know, “Yeah we just finished up recording and we’re getting ready – “ Talking about the Classic Crime. Like I would never say, if it’s a band that I’m really invested in or they’ve been a part of me, I would never be like, “Yeah, we just wrapped up recording a couple weeks ago. Really excited to release this album.”
Like I would never do that with music, even though it’s very possible that you’re music has done something incredibly meaningful to my life. You know, you’ve had people that have been fans for a long time. And the way that music has woven into the fabric of their DNA, sports is just different than music in that respect.
Matt: It absolutely is. Yeah, I mean unless you’ve done some culture permeating thing like Insane Clown Posse and you’re like with the Juggalos and you’re like, “We are going to go the Gathering this year because we’re going to rock out. “ Or something.
Nate: Yeah, I feel like the Grateful Dead, then maybe, you know, you can consider yourself in the band.
Matt: You can be like, “We’re the best band in the world, man.”
Nate: That’s so good.
Daniel: With the Fantasy Focus Football podcast, we’ve done a couple of live shows, live podcasts in New York and Boston and Philly. And we had people fly in from Texas and California. And to fly in to see a live podcast which is an hour and a half long, to be able to come and do that, it’s not even like a real sport. You’re talking about fake football for a living.
Matt: (laughs) I’m pretty into that fake football.
Daniel: Absolutely. But like if you had to choose, like would you go see a writer that does the fake football that you talk about? And I love Matthew and Field and Stephania to no end, I mean they are some of my favorite people in the world. But would I want to go see a writer that does that thing that I do? Or would I rather go see Richard Sherman?
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Like which one would I fly across the country for? So there is something about that fandom of seeing people come to talk about a fake sport that has spent hundreds of dollars and traveled across the states to be able to come see you, it’s just insane to me the lengths that people go to the things that they love.
Matt: What a world.
Nate: Yeah, absolutely.
Matt: Well, they clearly see value in it. And the identity of their team is an extension of themselves too, if they’re fantasy team wins, then they win. And so if they can get some insights on who to pick up off the waiver wire or who’s the hot whatever this week, I mean that really helps their overall self-esteem. (laughs)
Nate: I mean I remember being on tour and being with a buddy on draft day and he’s like, “I can’t hang out today, man. It’s draft day.” I’m like, “I’m only in town for one day.”
Daniel: Sorry, bud.
Matt: He’s like, “Sorry, dude. I’ve got more important stuff.”
Nate: I don’t understand fantasy stuff, but that’s its own podcast.
Daniel: It’s weird, when you think about it fantasy – and not to get into another rabbit hole – but fantasy is almost like that saving grace for fans of bad sports teams. Because you know what? I know I’m a Browns fan, but I get to draft my own team and so I will still always root for the Browns, but I get to find my enjoyment through these players that I have chosen.” It’s a totally different level.
Matt: It’s a total self-preservation safety net because if your team loses, if you’re real team lose that week, and you’re in two fantasy teams, or fantasy leagues, like I am, than there’s a good chance that at least one of my fantasy teams will win. And then it’s like not a total loss for my ego.
Daniel: But when all three of those teams lose, Matt, it is just like the worst week –
Matt: No, one week that happened this year where both my fantasy lost, the Huskies lost, and the Seahawks lost. And it was like the one loss that I think USC delivered to UW. And I was just like devastated for a few minutes. For a few minutes I allowed myself to be devastated, then I was like, “None of this matters. Got to move on. I have mouths to feed.”
Nate: We could wrap it up talking about that like, how come sports seem to be more important than everything for a lot of people. They can trump any important thing going on. And I think there’s just a point where it almost becomes too much. Like
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I can handle the baseball season, but I feel like I have to rest in the off season. Like the next go around, I actually have to detox from this for a little while.
Matt: (laughs) From the dopamine ups and downs.
Daniel: There’s guys out there that do fantasy for all the sports they love. They’ve got different teams they watch, they’re constantly either watching the games or –
Matt: Yeah, those guys are flying to the live podcast and they’re paying Daniel’s bills. So you know, Daniel is sort of dependent. (laughs)
Nate: I’m sure you deal with those people every day, Daniel, like every day you probably have these awkward moments. At least I remember having so many awkward moments just as a singer in a band, just like.
Matt: Sure. At the merch table?
Nate: Oh yeah, or wherever. Just like, you know?
Daniel: But how do you deal with it? I remember when “Song in My Head” came out and the video in that, the little kid looks just like my little brother. And there were a couple times were I got choked up because I pictured my little brother in that video that you guys released. And when he was getting picked on by all those little kids and that little girl came over and like held his hand.
There was something in that to me, that like I want you to know, that touched me in a way – like when someone comes up and says that to you, like how do you deal with that?
Nate: It just depends on how level headed they are. You know, if they get a little weird, start getting awkward. You know, those are the moments, like that’s why you do what you do. That’s why you write music, that’s why you play music, and that’s what you hope to achieve. But I still think at the end of the day like, it’s just kind of how it’s presented to you.
Daniel: But do you do that for people? Do you do that for them or do you do that for – because I don’t think, we had Landon Collins, the New York Giants safety come through today. Like do you think he plays football for the people? Or does he do it because it’s something that he wants to do because he gets enjoyment out of it.
I mean you write music for you first and foremost, correct?
Nate: I think it’s both. I think it’s both. I think you do it for you, but you also –
Matt: I will say that I write it for me, when I’m writing a song I don’t think about anything else but what I’m feeling and what I like in that moment.
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Daniel: No, and I think the people – and I think you guys will understand when I say this – the people that are receiving those comments, even though it’s sometimes uncomfortable to be able to hear, you understand. And it’s like, “I’m glad I was able to be that outlet for you. I’m glad that I was able to provide that for you.” Because that is certainly a part of it and I – we had somebody, and I don’t know they’re name, but it’s probably best. So I’m sorry if you also listen to this podcast and you’re the person I’m about to talk about.
But we had somebody that wrote the Fantasy Focus Football podcast and said, “I want you guys to know that I’ve been listening to you guys for a long time,” and there was a big long story about something that happened with their pet and they didn’t realize and they took it in and the pet had to go through surgery. And they were sitting there. And it was an animal they had had for like the last nine years. And he was sitting there overnight waiting to be able to find out if his dog was going to make it through surgery. And the only thing that he was listening to was that day’s Fantasy Focus Football podcast on repeat. Because it was just like in that moment it was something to occupy him and it was something he could live in, and he could find and escape in.
And he wrote us this email, this beautifully long email of how, “What you guys do, you have no idea how much it means to me that you were able to there for me in that moment.”
Matt: But he’s extracting so much more meaning out of the podcast episode than was ever –
Daniel: Than we’re talking about fake football, absolutely.
Matt: However, it is an honor to be there in that moment when someone is going through something difficult. And that’s what I try to remind myself. It’s like, “If it wasn’t my music, it would have been somebody’s.”
Daniel: Sure. Probably Chris Carrabba’s.
Matt: Yeah, probably Chris Carrabba’s. (laughs)
Nate: That’s a good thing to throw out there, because that’s a good point. I feel like you’re – as an artist – you’re never fully going to be able to put yourself in the fan’s position. So you’re never really going to understand them. But you can go back and you can go, “Okay, what have I been a fan of?” Like Mike Herrera was everything to me at a certain point in my life.
Matt: Yeah, we had him on the podcast.
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Nate: Yeah, and then we had him on the podcast and for a second I was just like, “Oh. Weird.” Like I would’ve killed to have just hung out and be friends with you at some point in my life.” You know what I mean? Guys like Reece Roper, for instance.
Like I dressed like the guy, you know? I just would wear Five Iron Frenzy every day for, you know? Like I had enough shirts to just wear a new one every day. I was that kid. I mean, that was why I wanted to be in a band. So then it was like weird that people were feeling the same feelings for me, or Sherwood. And talking to me about it going –
See, I don’t feel like I’ve arrived yet, so why do you think I’m here? And so that’s the awkwardness, but there are –
Matt: It’s the nature of the Para social relationships. You feel like that person is an extension, it’s something you know about them. You know? And so when you meet them, it’s like, “Oh my gosh, I’ve been in your head for years.”
Nate: Even this podcast people will send us emails and such. And it’s like, we still feel like we’re kind of figuring this podcast out. You know? Like what are we doing? “Don’t change!”
Matt: Yeah, we just had Daniel on and we’re like, “What are we going to ask him?” (laughs) We don’t know what we’re doing.
Daniel: ”We don’t know what we’re talking about.”
Nate: No, that’s good. I guess if you have any last awkward stories, share them now.
Daniel: Probably – and it’s not an awkward story, but it’s something that I feel super blessed, even though this isn’t sports, but just what I’ve been able to do at ESPN. You know I grew up listening to a lot of the early Tooth and Nail and a lot of the stuff that you guys had within you know, that scene. I saw that Mike Herrera had posted something about MxPx playing a couple shows and you know I had commented on something not expecting anyone to reply.
And he was like, “By the way, Daniel, I’m an 06010 listener.” And so like to see Mike Herrera text me back to say, “Hey I listen to your podcast.” I was like, “No, wait a second.” I do know absolutely what you mean.
And so it’s one of those things where, you know, I think regardless of how – and I’m a nobody in the sporting world – even once you get up to the players within the sports, I do feel like there’s this thing of, there’s this sense of pride to be able to offer something to these fans that you know that they find a release in.
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And it’s the same whether it’s music or whatever you want to pick. And so when you come up and someone’s like, “I don’t even know what to say, you’re Calvin Johnson. I can’t even tell you how much time I’ve invested in watching you play football. All the things that you have done.” And it is such a blessing to be able to work for those that understand that what you get to do for a living is an escape and a release for others. And you’re glad to be able to be there and to do it. And it’s just such a blessing to be able to be part of something like that.
Nate: That’s awesome.
Matt: That’s great. Daniel, if someone wants to follow you online, what’s your Twitter handle and all that?
Daniel: You can follow me on Twitter @DanielDopp. You can follow me on Instagram although I don’t really do a whole lot on Instagram on #somethingtobreak. But every once and while I’ll post a photo or two.
Matt: A photo of maybe some vinyl for those of you who don’t know, Daniel he’s kind of Mr. Vinyl Guy at BC Music. That’s the label we put our stuff out on. You know, Sherwood, The Classic Crime, you’ve heard them. Vocal Few. We make vinyl and Daniel basically manages all that and he usually gets the test presses and listens to them and tells us if they’re good or bad and then keeps them.
Daniel: I don’t keep all of them, but I keep some of them.
Matt: Well that’s his only payment, so it’s not nearly enough. So we thank you for helping us out in that regard too, man.
Nate: Yeah, man.
Daniel: Absolutely. Thank you guys so much for having me, this was a ton of fun. Appreciate it.
Nate: Yeah, sorry it was all over the place, but that’s how we do it here on Don’t Feed The Trolls. We fly by the seat of our pants.
Daniel: Yeah, no, it’s awesome.
Nate: Cool.
Matt: Awesome, well that about wraps it up. Thank you for listening to Don’t Feed The Trolls. Tell your friends about our podcast if you like it. It’s Don’t Feed The Trolls, that’s the name of the podcast. You can email us at [email protected]. Or through our contact form at trollspodcast.com. Go check us out on Twitter and Instagram, it’s easy to find us. Till next time, see ya!
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Daniel: Beautiful.
Don’t Feed The Trolls Podcast