PETITIONS

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1577

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 Mount Stirling

To the Honourable the Speaker and members of the Legislative Assembly in Parliament assembled:

The SPEAKER (Hon. S. J. Plowman) took the chair This petition of the undersigned citizens of the state of at 10.07 a.m. and read the prayer. Victoria showeth their concern that Mount Stirling, much loved by all Victorians, as a diverse PETITIONS all-year-round recreational area, popular as a destination for four-wheel drive touring by family The Clerk - I have received the following groups and those with limited mobility, is at risk of petitions for presentation to Parliament: development.

Parliament House Completion Authority This will deny access to the summit of Mount Stirling Act for a large portion of the peoples of the state of Victoria. This development, by removing four-wheel drive To the Honourable the Speaker and members of the access to the summit, will deny to this portion of the Legislative Assembly in Parliament assembled: population of the state of Victoria, the magnificent and expansive views of the Victorian alpine areas and a The humble petition of the undersigned citizens of the part of Victoria's alpine heritage. state of Victoria objects to proposed amendments to the Parliament House Completion Authority Act which Your petitioners therefore pray that the state override the National Parks Act to allow sandstone government will act quickly to address the concerns mining in the Grampians National Park. and it is essential that a management plan is developed to enhance this area so that all recreational users Your petitioners pray that the proposed amendments including four-wheel-drive family groups and those be withdrawn so that significant environmental and with limited mobility can enjoy the feeling of a near historical assets of the Grampians National Park spiritual experience in this magnificent semi-wilderness continue to be protected in accordance with the area. provisions and intent of the National Parks Act. And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. By Ms Garbutt (87 signatures) By Ms Garbutt (849 signatures) Moonee Valley: commissioners Austin and repatriation hospital To the Honourable the Speaker and members of the To the Honourable the Speaker and members of the Legislative Assembly in Parliament assembled: Legislative Assembly in Parliament assembled: The humble petition of we, the undersigned citizens of The petition of certain residents of the state of Victoria the City of Moonee Valley, call upon the state hereby expresses their dismay at the closure of the government of Victoria to respond to the community's Austin campus of the North Eastern Health Care demand to refer Moonee Valley Council to the Local Network. Furthermore, the community are extremely Government Board and to sack the commissioners at concerned of the deteriorating services and reSOurces at Moonee Valley as they have acted contrary to state the Austin and Repatriation campuses and the effect government policy. upon veterans and older people. The commissioners' decision to close the Ascot Vale Your petitioners therefore request that the Legislative library is against the wishes of the community and Assembly act to prevent the loss of the important represents a significant reduction in library service health facility to the community. levels in the municipality.

And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. Therefore this action is contrary to the government mandate given to commissioners that they were not to By Ms Garbutt (197 signatures) reduce levels of service to the community. DRUGS AND CRIME PREVENTION COMMITTEE

1578 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. Ordered that report, appendices and extract from proceedings be printed. By Mrs Maddigan (1157 signatures) ABORIGINAL DEATHS IN CUSTODY Niddrie quarry site Implementation report To the Honourable the Speaker and members of the Legislative Assembly in Parliament assembled: Mrs HENDERSON (Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs) presented 1995-96 Victorian The humble petition of we, the ~dersigned citizens of government implementation report on the City of Moonee Valley, call upon the state recommendations arising from Royal Commission government to respond to the community's request to into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. save the lake in the former Niddrie quarry site. Laid on table. Currently an application, ES 8526, is before the council to permit the developer to drain the lake and to fill with PAPERS clean fill and low-level contaminated waste. We believe this would be detrimental to the health of our citizens Laid on table by Clerk: and the amenity of the area. Financial Management Act 1994 - Reports of the And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. Minister for Health advising that he had received the 1995-96 Annual Reports of the - By Mr Hulls (2853 signatures) Advanced Dental Technicians Qualifications Board Ordered that petition presented by honourable Alexandra and District Ambulance Service member for Niddrie be considered next day on Dental Technicians Licensing Committee motion of Mr HULLS (Niddrie). Legal Profession Practice Act 1958 - Report of the Lay Laid on table. Observer to the Solicitors' Board and the Barristers' Disciplinary Tribunal for the year 1995. DRUGS AND CRIME PREVENTION COMMITTEE AUDITOR-GENERAL

Sexual assault against adults Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I desire to move that the house do now adjourn for Mr ROWE (Cranboume) presented final report on the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent combating sexual assault against adult men and public importance - namely, the unprecedented women, together with appendices and minutes of action of the state Auditor-General in writing to all evidence. members of Parliament on 21 November stating that the government's review of the Audit Act represents Laid on table. the greatest threat to the independence and very existence of his role and to the Parliament's right to Ordered that report and appendices be printed. know, and that any review of the Auditor-General's role should be the sole prerogative of the Parliament. LAW REFORM COMMITTEE The SPEAKER - Order! Before asking members Jury service to indicate their support for the motion to be moved by the Leader of the Opposition, I point out that the Mr PERTON (Doncaster) presented Volume 1 of Chair has some difficulty with it. I will indicate the final report on jury service, together with difficulty and then seek argument from both sides of appendices, extract from proceedings, minutes of the house as to whether or not the motion should evidence and submissions. proceed.

Laid on table. The question the Chair has to determine on an adjournment motion of this kind is whether it is a definite matter of urgent public importance. It is a AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1579 definite matter, and no doubt it is of public major focus of public attention and of question time, importance. However, the question is of one of both this week and in the previous week of sitting. urgency. The Chair must determine whether a letter from the Auditor-General is an issue in itself or The Auditor-General's decision to write to all whether it is part of a series of events -- members of Parliament is unprecedented. I put it to you, Sir, that if you rule against this adjournment Mr Brumby interjected. motion you will bring the house into disrepute, and you will make it a laughing stock in the media and The SPEAKER - Order! I will give the Leader of in the general community. Members of the public the Opposition the opportunity to put his argument will ask why this house ruled that it could not in a minute. The Chair has to determine whether the debate or discuss a major public issue involving an letter in itself is a single issue, or whether it is one in unprecedented threat against the Auditor-General, a series of events relating to the review of the who for the first time in his eight years in the job Auditor-General's activities. I invite the Leader of decided to write to all members of Parliament. For the Opposition to convince the Chair of that matter. goodness sake, this Parliament wants some return to the sensible rulings of the past, when debates of this Mr BRUMBY - Mr Speaker, thank you for the type-- opportunity to comment on your ruling at this stage. Mr Gude interjected. The SPEAKER - Order! It is not a ruling yet. Mr BRUMBY - There is no reflection on the Mr BRUMBY - With the greatest of respect, the Chair. We want the opportunity for debates of this interpretation which you, Mr Speaker, have given to type to be available to this house. Have a look the standing orders as they relate to urgent matters through Hansard of the late 1980s and the early of public importance would rule out debate on 1990s. In those days there was more than the virtually every single urgent matter of public occasional debate about the Auditor-General, interest that comes before this Parliament. I have because the rulings of that time enabled debates on been in this Parliament a relatively short time -less matters of public interest to take place. This is an than four years. During that time I cannot recall an unprecedented letter, an unprecedented occasion when the Auditor-General has found it circumstance, and a matter of urgent public necessary to take the unprecedented action of importance. We have not had the opportunity to writing to every member of Parliament saying that a discuss it before, so let's get on with the debate. decision that had been taken by the executive arm of government posed the greatest threat ever to his The SPEAKER - Order! Before calling the independence. Leader of the House, I stress that this is not an easy decision for the Chair. On the question of urgency, The Auditor-General wrote the letter on the Chair is guided by past precedent and by May. 21 November, which was the Thursday of the last Paragraph (2)(b)(i) at page 5 of extracts from the sitting week. Until today, the house has had no 17th edition of May states: opportunity whatsoever, whether in a grievance debate, an adjournment debate, a budget reply or a The fact that a grievance is continuing is not sufficient if debate on the address-in-reply, to debate the it is not of recent occurrence. unprecedented letter sent by the Auditor-General to every member of state Parliament. I accept that the matter is of recent occurrence. The paragraph continues: Over the past two weeks it has had more newspaper and media space than any other issue. Mr Speaker, if The fact that new information has been received this is not a matter of public importance, I do not regarding a matter that has been continuing for some know what is. On the Thursday of the last sitting time does not in itself make that matter one of urgency. week, the Auditor-General took an action which is unprecedented in his eight years in office and which I ask members to keep their arguments to the we have not yet had an opportunity to debate. I do question of urgency and opportunity to assist the not know what Parliament is coming to if we cannot Chair in determining the issue. Reflections on find in the forms that govern the proceedings of this rulings past and future do not help the Chair in house an opportunity to debate the proposed review making a decision, which I wish to make without of the Auditor-General's office. This has been the fear or favour to either side of the Parliament. AUDITOR-GENERAL

1580 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

Mr GUDE (Minister for Education) - When you Act 1994 in accordance with the national have no policy and when you have no case, you will competition policy. It is also worth observing that try to trump up a stunt. This matter came to light the government has not directed and will not direct quite some time ago and commenced quite some any outcomes of the review. Changes will be time ago. The letter referred to in the motion moved proposed to the Audit Act following the review. by the opposition is nothing more than a simple link in a chain of events. The Victorian government, The SPEAKER - Order! The Leader of the along with all other Australian governments, has an House is now debating the substance of the review obligation to review all legislation that may restrict rather than the urgency of the matter. I ask him to competition under the April 1995 COAG agreement come back to the question on which the Chair needs on national competition policy. That is when this advice. issue gained some currency. As the Leader of the Opposition should know, and certainly his Treasury Mr GUDE - The point I am seeking to make, spokesman should know, Victoria has identified Mr Speaker, is that when this chain of events is around 420 pieces of legislation and regulation that concluded and when the review has taken place, may be restricted by the competition rules. should there be any determination about a change to the Audit Act, that proposal would obviously come The timetable for that review was released publicly before the Parliament and there would then be an in June last year. The National Competition Council, appropriate opportunity to debate the matter. a joint body established by all the states and the commonwealth, has approved the Victorian Mr Cole interjected. timetable for review of the legislation. The review includes Victoria's Audit Act 1994. The audit Mr GUDE - If the honourable member for legislation is certainly not exempted from the review Melbourne wants to be involved in the review, he is under the national competition policy and is clearly at liberty, as are all members of the community, to identified in the timetable. make submissions to the independent committee of inquiry. In case the honourable member misses his The opposition has had at least two opportunities to opportunity, I inform him that submissions must be refer to the review of the Audit Act. It is my received by 20 January, and the report and its recollection that during the appropriation debates recommendations must be with the Premier by that have taken place since April 1995 the opposition 25 March next year. This is part of a long chain of made no attempt to use that opportunity to raise the events, commencing with the COAG process and a matter. I also note that yesterday the opposition series of developments, which will result in a review gave notice of a few motions dealing with the same and a report which will be given consideration. issue and which now appear on the notice paper. Some 420 pieces of legislation and regulation have With the fullness of time we will have an been identified by the government as part of the opportunity to debate those motions. Unlike the review process. Is the opposition seriously Leader of the Opposition, I am addressing the issues proposing that any time any individual who might on which decisions need to be made; I am not be affected by the review process writes and sends seeking to denigrate the role of the Speaker or the letters to all honourable members this Parliament performance of this Parliament. will be required to conduct an urgency motion? Some 420 pieces of legislation and regulation are The Auditor-General's position is established by involved! statute. Section 4(1) of the Audit Act states: Mr Bracks interjected. There shall be an Auditor General who shall be appointed by the Governor in Council on such terms Mr GUDE - The honourable member for and conditions, not inconsistent with the Act, as the Williamstown says that this is the Auditor-General. Governor in Council determines. It is the Auditor-General, and the other pieces of legislation and regulation under review are also of There is no reference in the Audit Act to the great importance. Many other senior bureaucrats are prerogative of the Parliament, as is referred to in the involved with the processes. Should we seriously motion moved by the Leader of the Opposition. The entertain a proposition that every time someone review currently in vogue is not a review of the writes to members of Parliament we will be faced Auditor-General's Office per se; it is a review of the with an urgency motion moved by the opposition? I possible restrictions on competition within the Audit AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1581 suggest this motion is nothing more than a trumped Numerous parliamentary inquiries within Victoria and up stunt and, accordingly, it should be thrown out. across Australia have concluded that the interests of Parliament and taxpayers are best served by an Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - Mr Speaker, I Auditor-General as a single independent voice. take seriously your request that we make submissions on the matter of urgency. I submit that That is a very significant claim and it deserves the letter which is the subject of the motion falls independent discussion. Probably the most within the bounds of the motion to adjourn the important section of this letter, which deserves house to discuss a matter of urgency. independent scrutiny and discussion in accordance Paragraph (2)(b) of extracts from the 17th edition of with the motion, is the third paragraph on page 2, May states: where the Auditor-General writes:

The fact that new information has been received In my eight years of reporting in the public interest regarding a matter that has been continuing for some without fear or favour, I view this government action time does not in itself make that matter one of urgency. as representing the greatest threat to the independence and even the very existence of my role, and to the That is what you, Mr Speaker, are seeking Parliament's and the community's right to know. submissions on. I would like to concentrate on the word 'matter', because quite clearly the adjournment He says in the second last paragraph: motion before the house defines the matter quite narrowly. What is the matter? Is it the terms of I am concerned that any measures which compromise reference for the review of the Audit Act or is it the the statutory independence and effectiveness of Auditor-General's letter? I submit to you, Parliament's external audit function will weaken the Mr Speaker, that the matter we are seeking to debate ability of Parliament to provide the constitutional today is the matter of the Auditor-General's letter. checks and balances. The adjournment motion says: Clearly the matters set out in the Auditor-General's That the house do now adjourn for the purpose of letter are matters that should be discussed, and the discussing a definite matter of urgent public motion has been framed around that proposition. importance, namely, 'the unprecedented action of the The motion has not been framed around the terms of state Auditor-General in writing to all members of reference of the review. We have not framed the Parliament on 21 November 1996. motion around the continuing matter of the Premier's action in selecting a three-person review The matter we are seeking to discuss is the matter of board or the composition of the board. The the Auditor-General's letter. Perhaps I could go to Auditor-General's submission to each and every the Auditor-General's letter, Mr Speaker, to give you member of Parliament is something that has not examples of why this is a separate issue and not a occurred in the life of this Parliament. The continuing issue. It is a stand-alone issue. The letter Auditor-General says it is the worst threat to his was sent to me and to every member of Parliament independence that he has seen in his eight years of on 21 November this year. I will go to the strength of office. the letter to reinforce the view that this is a separate matter that deserves a separate discussion. In the The submission put by the Leader of the House was second paragraph of his letter the Auditor-General absolutely and totally irrelevant to the question you says: raised, Mr Speaker. He said the matter before the house could be a letter from any member of the I am astonished to see the role of the Auditor-General is public. This is not a letter from any member of the regarded as a government activity and, therefore, public; this is a letter from one of the chief officers of subject to this review. the state. This is a letter from the independent Auditor-General, who has a long-term contractual He goes on to discuss that. He uses the words 'I am obligation to the Parliament. This is not a case of any astonished'. This is the Auditor-General, one of the ordinary member of the public writing to each most senior officers of the state, who reports to this member of Parliament. That submission from the Parliament. That is a material matter and it deserves Leader of the House is absolutely erroneous. separate discussion. In the second paragraph on page 2 the Auditor-General goes on to say: Could I say in defence of the motion before you, Mr Speaker, that as I read May the key question is AUDITOR-GENERAL

1582 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 the word 'matter'. The opposition has framed its very essence of the issue presents the opportunity motion on the back of the Auditor-General's letter. for the opposition to partidpate in the public debate There is enough strength in the letter to show that in exactly the same way the Auditor-General himself this is an independent matter that should be has proposed to participate. This is possible at two discussed in its own right. There is no doubt that we levels. Firstly, the opposition has participated in could do that in the time available to us. public debate and in debate in this Parliament about this issue. Secondly, the opposition has an Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I submit that opportunity to make a submission to the review, this matter does not qualify as an urgency which the very letter that is the subject of this adjournment motion. motion indicates the Auditor-General himself proposes to do. The Parliament was sitting on Honourable members interjecting. 21 November this year when this letter was --

The SPEAKER - Order! The Leader of the Honourable members interjecting. OppOSition has raised a very important motion. I want to determine whether the Leader of the The SPEAKER - Order! The Leader of the OppOSition has the right to raise this issue as an Opposition and members of the opposition who are adjournment motion. The Leader of the Opposition raising this issue are not endearing their argument was heard almost without interruption. I ask him to to the Chair by not allowing the Chair to hear extend the same courtesy to others and allow the argument from both sides of the house. I commend Chair to hear the arguments put so that the Chair to the Leader of the Opposition that he stop can determine this issue. muttering and interjecting across the table. There certainly will not be time left to debate the matter Mr STOCKDALE - He is a great democrat, today if the Leader of the Opposition keeps going on Mr Speaker. He tries to shout down anybody who as he has been. I suggest to the Leader of the puts a different point of view. Mr Speaker, I put it to Opposition that he observe the courtesies of the you that this matter does not meet the test on three house, particularly in a matter where the Chair is separate grounds. First of all, it is not a 'matter' in trying to rule on an issue either in his favour or the sense required by the principle. Secondly, the otherwise. His continuing behaviour is not claim by the opposition that there has been no endearing himself or his cause to the Chair. opportunity to discuss the matter is demonstrably not correct. Indeed, it is a great privilege to follow Mr STOCKDALE - This house provides a the honourable member for Williamstown because number of opportunities for the opposition to raise he actually raised this matter on the day when the matters: in question time, in the adjournment debate letter was dated. The third reason is that this is an and by way of motions. The fact that the opposition abuse of the process in an attempt to pervert the does not succeed is not an indication that the orderly processes of the house and quite improperly processes of the Parliament are deficient; it simply to elevate motions of which notice was given indicates a fact the Labor Party rammed down yesterday to the head of the notice paper. everybody's throats when it was in government - the essence of government is the control of the Firstly, this matter is not a 'matter' in the sense numbers in the house. required by May. This is in fact the expression of a point of view by one participant in an issue of public Those opportunities exist, and in some respects they debate. It is not of itself a separate matter. It is a have been used by the opposition, but not in the simple participation in a matter of debate in the most important respect. In dealing with whether a public arena. It does not raise a new matter. It is matter is a matter of urgency paragraph (2)(c)(iv) at simply participation in a discussion about a matter page 5 of the Extracts from 17th edition of May states: that has not only been a matter of public contention for the past three weeks but has been a matter of When it was capable of being dealt with on the continuing contention in this house. It does not adjournment after eleven o'clock (at that time the hour amount to a 'matter' in itself and is simply a of interruption of business). participation in the public debate. Of itself that is sufficient to dispose of the motion. Precedent is then cited for the fact that if an opportunity is available for a matter to be raised on It is simply not accurate for the opposition to claim it the adjournment and it is capable of being raised on has not had an opportunity to raise this matter. The the adjournment the matter cannot be regarded as a AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1583 matter of urgency to be raised at a later time. The applies to what happened yesterday. When the honourable member for Williamstown is saying he opposition again chose to ask questions on the did not have an opportunity to raise the matter on matter yet did not raise it during the adjournment 21 November. debate last night. The principle in May applies with equal force to the adjournment debates of Mr Bracks interjected. 21 November and last night. The opposition has not established that this matter is urgent in accordance Mr STOCKDALE - The honourable member with the strict precedents of the house. Nobody has does not want to hear the argument because he made any attempt to deal with the criteria as knows it is not strong. The honourable member for established by May and nobody has made any Williamstown argued that the Labor Party has not attempt to deal with the very intrinsic nature of the had an opportunity to raise this matter in the house. issue. That is factually inaccurate. On 21 November 1996 during question time the honourable member for This process is also objectionable on another Williamstown asked this question, and I quote from ground - that is, it represents a flagrant abuse of page 1463 of Hansard: the processes of the house. This is the time of day for debating general business, notices of motion. Some Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I refer the Treasurer to 122 notices of motion are on the notice paper and if the letter sent by the Auditor-General to all members of the opposition does not wish to proceed with item Parliament in which he said when he referred to the no. 1 it can follow the process that has been followed government's proposed review of his office: any number of times in this house before - that is, honourable members can inform the house they do I view this government action as representing the not wish to proceed with their notices of motion at greatest threat to the independence and even the this stage but that they wish them to remain on the very existence of my role ... notice paper. Will the Treasurer admit ... The Leader of the Opposition is not entitled to seek He then went on and asked the question. Shortly to give the last four notices of motion priority over after 2.00 p.m. during question time on notices of motion that have been on the notice paper 21 November - two weeks ago -- in some cases since Parliament reconvened. To have given notice of four motions yesterday and to then Mr Dollis interjected. seek to give them priority over almost 120 other notices is a flagrant attempt to abuse the processes of Mr STOCKDALE - The honourable member for the house. Almost 120 notices of motion were Richmond should restrain himself. He is not already on the notice paper ready for the members listening to the debate, and he can hardly respond if who gave notice to take carriage of the debates. he does not hear the argument. Shortly after Apparently the Labor Party is not prepared to take 2.00 p.m. on 21 November the opposition was aware carriage of notice of motion no. 1. It wants to bypass of this question and of the very principle it seeks to all that and go to the last notice. That is a flagrant rely upon now because that was the very nub of the breach of process. question asked by the honourable member for Williamstown that I have just quoted. The Clearly, Mr Speaker, the motion does not meet the opposition chose not to raise that matter in debate at criteria you raised, nor is it a matter of urgency, as any point during the day after that question was evidenced by the fact that there have been at least asked. It attempted to move motions before the two opportunities to raise it during the adjournment question was asked, but from that point onwards it debate and because the opposition has repeatedly chose not to raise the matter. When the adjournment raised it during question time, thereby indicating debate came at the end of that day's proceedings the that it has been aware of the issue for the past three opposition had the opportunity to raise the issue but weeks. Having used question time to pursue this chose not to do so. matter and having used the media to argue that it is entitled to proceed not just on the general issue but The passage I have just quoted from extracts from specifically on the Auditor-General's letter, it ill the 17th edition of May makes the point that a matter behoves the opposition to suddenly claim today that is not urgent if it is capable of being raised in the the matter has become urgent. It has been the subject adjournment debate and has not been raised in the of public debate for more than three weeks and the adjournment debate. Exactly the same argument opposition has raised it during question time. The A UD ITOR-G ENERAL

1584 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 opposition has failed to take the opportunities been addressed previously. I have taken the matter available to it, and it should not be allowed to up with you, Mr Speaker, in discussions about this pervert the principles of Westminster parliaments as new and unprecedented attempt by the government reflected in May and to pervert the processes of this to use question time and the adjournment debate as house in an attempt to bring on a matter it chooses a vehicle to stifle standing order no. 26 dealing with to debate, despite the fact that it does not meet the adjournment motions. At no other time in the relevant criteria. history of this Parliament has that procedure been accepted. I have said before, Mr Speaker, that if you Mr BATCHELOR (Thomastown) - Mr Speaker, accept the argument that was forcefully put to you I wish to respond to your request for advice on this by the Treasurer, it would mean the end of standing important matter, which goes to the very heart of order no. 26 on adjournment motions. That is the how this house conducts debates and how it is able decision you will have to make today. He has put to to deal with matters provided for in the standing you that if any member raises an issue in questions orders. I ask you, Sir, to discount the three grounds without notice or in the adjournment debate, that the Treasurer has put to you, and I will address each matter cannot be discussed in an adjournment of those. I will also take the opportunity to address motion under standing order no. 26. I put it to you, the issues relating to urgency which you, Sir, raised Mr Speaker, that on that ground alone you should at the very beginning, because I believe they are rule out decisively the arguments put to you by the pertinent. government. I will take the opportunity of rejecting the government's other arguments. Firstly, it is important to address the issues the Treasurer has put forward. If the Treasurer's Mr Speaker, the Treasurer also raised with you the argument was accepted by you, Mr Speaker, this matter of whether this was our first available house would never again be able to move an opportunity to raise this matter in the more general adjournment motion in accordance with standing sense, notwithstanding his argument about order no. 26, which provides for the debate the questions without notice or the nightly opportunity. opposition is trying to conduct this morning. It is a This letter is dated 21 November. It was circulated to procedure within the forms of this house that all members of Parliament on that date, and this is provides for the minority party to put forward a the first available opportunity for the opposition to matter on a parliamentary timetable, which the raise the matter. Since 21 November there have been Treasurer admitted is absolutely controlled by the no other opportunities for us to debate the matter in government - and by this government more so the context of what standing order no. 26 implies than any other previous government in this and was meant to mean. This is the first available Parliament. opportunity. In accordance with the meaning of the standing orders and the traditions of this house, the Standing order no. 26 provides one of the few opposition has sought to move a motion within the opportunities an opposition has to raise matters of traditional forms of Parliament, and the government urgency. Even though the procedures are clearly set says that if we do it within the traditional forms of out in that standing order, the government is trying Parliament it is an abuse of the process. What an to contend the opposition should not use the form illogical argument! It cannot be sustained. I am specifically provided in standing orders. I ask you, surprised that the Treasurer, who prides himself on Sir, to cast your mind to the intent of that standing being a logical debater, would put forward such an order. illogical argument. It is a non sequitur and the Treasurer, of all people, should not be putting The Treasurer spent much time talking about forward such arguments. He believes that if he says opportunity for parliamentary debate. I put it to something eloquently, even if it is illogical, it should you, Mr Speaker, that it is not appropriate to cite be accepted. That style of argument within this question time or the nightly adjournment debate as a chamber must also be rejected. time in which urgent matters of definite public importance can be debated. Standing order no. 26 is The Treasurer said that this was not a matter: he did about a debate; it is not about asking questions on not describe it in any greater detail. I put it to you, notice. Mr Speaker, that there is no argument to support this issue not being a matter. The Auditor-General It is not about raising matters of government wrote to every member of this Chamber, and that is administration within a 3-minute time frame, which unprecedented. It is a definite matter. The two-page is what the adjournment debate is. This issue has letter is dated. It could not be any more specific or AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1585 definite than it is. When introducing and calling for Mr Speaker, that the arguments put by all members advice on this matter you, Mr Speaker, indicated of the government should be discounted by you. At that you accepted it was a matter, and the only real the end of the day you are obligated, in considering question to be discussed here was the question of your fair application of the standing orders, their opportunity. You referred to our handy little precedents and their intent, to protect the rights of compendium on the 17th edition of May and the minority. The minority has a right under the referred to the tests that urgency motions must standing orders to bring adjournment motions satisfy. At pages 364 and 365 of the 17th edition of before you and you have an obligation to uphold May it is stated that the second test is that the matter that right. must be urgent, and you queried whether it was of recent occurrence and had been raised without delay. The SPEAKER - Order! I have heard sufficient argument on this issue and thank members for their I put it to you that, even within the subsets of the contributions. It is not an easy or clear-cut decision criteria laid down under that heading, all of those for the Chair to make. If the Chair followed the minor or subsidiary tests under subparagraphs (i), argument that this is a matter that could be raised (ii) and (ill) have been met. Subparagraph (ill) states during the debate on the motion for the that if a matter is not raised at the earliest adjournment of the house, no adjournment motion opportunity it fails in urgency. Mr Speaker, I would ever get up. Therefore I cannot accept that indicated to you that this is our first available line of reasoning. opportunity within the forms and traditions of the Parliament to raise the matter. I believe that criterion In respect of opportunity and its relation to notices is satisfied unambiguously, without any doubt. of motion, the practicalities are that the notices on Subparagraph (iD states that if the facts have only the notice paper will not present an opportunity for been recently revealed, that does not make the a great length of time for members to raise that occurrence recent. lbis matter occurred within the question by an appropriate motion. Questions appropriate time frame. Paragraph (2)(a) and (b)(i), without notice are also not an opportunity to raise which is the most relevant to this argument, states an issue in a proper debate on a motion before the that the matter must be urgent, of recent occurrence house, and questions without notice therefore do not and raised without delay. It says also that the fact raise an opportunity for debate of an issue of this that a grievance is continuing is not sufficient if it is kind. not of recent occurrence. There is some guidance on the question of urgency Mr Speaker, even if you ruled that this was a in rulings by Speakers Peacock, McDonald and continuing grievance, which I do not believe it is, the Delzoppo - twice - in 1928, 1963, 1993 and again Auditor-General's letter is of recent occurrence in 1993 to the effect that if 12 members stand in their because of the opportunity argument. No-one has place in support of a motion the matter is prima disputed the fact that this letter is dated facie urgent. However, I think that also has to be 21 November. It is a letter from the Auditor-General; looked at. I do not believe 12 members simply it is not a continuing matter. We could use as an standing in their place should be a conclusive analogy an urgency motion relating to the weather argument to decide that a matter is urgent. Some or a flood. The analogy with this debate is that if notice must be taken of the guidance of May on the there was a devastating flood in Victoria we could matter. not talk about it because the flood is determined by the prevailing weather conditions. That is an The Chair comes to the final matter I believe will absolutely illogical argument and should be refuted, determine this issue: whether or not this is a just as the argument here should be refuted. There is separate matter. The Chair has listened carefully to no doubt that this matter is of recent occurrence argument from both sides of the house on whether within the parliamentary timetable. However, even this is a separate matter, and that impinges on the if you rule that it was a continuing matter from some question of urgency as set out in May. particular time, Mr Speaker - I do not know from when it is continuing - I argue that this is a specific The Chair believes this is a separate matter. and definite matter and should satisfy your concerns. However, if the Chair accepts the motion the debate would not go to the terms of reference of the review, The arguments put by the Leader of the House were the panel members or their appointment, et cetera, it political and did not address the specifics of the would simply go to the issues raised in the letter standing orders. I put it to you once again, AUDITOR-GENERAL

1586 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 written by the Auditor-General. Therefore debate on government activities on behalf of the Parliament and this issue will necessarily be narrow. the taxpayer could be seriously compromised.

There is a very fine line between whether this is a I am astonished to see that the role of the separate matter or another event in an on-going Auditor-General is regarded as a government activity series of events. Because it is a very fine line I will and, therefore, subject to this review. In fact, my role follow the precedents of former Speakers. In order to and that of my office is clearly separate from protect the rights of minorities, I will accept the government. The Auditor-General forms part of the motion. I ask honourable members to indicate their Parliament's regulatory and accountability framework support of the motion before it proceeds. and is the principal source of independent information for both the Parliament and Victorian taxpayers on the Required number of members rose indicating performance and operations of the government itself. approval of motion being put. I emphasise that I am not opposed to independent The SPEAKER - Order! I remind honourable reviews of my office by the Parliament. Two major members that the argument must relate to the letter. reviews since 1992, commissioned by the Parliament, have concluded that I am discharging my financial and Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - performance audit responsibilities, using both in-house Mr Speaker, I am mindful of your ruling. I move: and private sector resources, economically, efficiently and effectively. That the house do now adjourn for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public It is inappropriate for the government, as the subject of importance, namely, 'The unprecedented action of the my audit, to commission a review which directly state Auditor-General in writing to all members of questions whether the Auditor-General should Parliament on 21 November 1996 stating that the undertake audits on behalf of the Parliament and government's review of the Audit Act represents the taxpayers and seeks to influence the manner in which greatest threat to the independence and very existence audit services are to be provided. Such action of his role and to the Parliament's right to know, and undermines the powers of the Parliament and is that any review of the Auditor-General's role should be prejudicial to audit independence. the sole prerogative of the Parliament'. In addition, the terms of reference are worded in such a So that we understand the breadth of the debate I way that appears to me to pre-empt the outcome of the will begin by reading the letter the Auditor-General review. For instance, one of the terms of reference sent to all members of Parliament. The letter sent to envisages government agencies having the right to me and to all other members of Parliament reads: choose their own auditor. I find this objectionable as it is a well~tablished principle that those subject to an Dear Mr Brumby, audit do not appoint their own auditor.

As you are aware, a review of the Audit Act 1994 is Numerous parliamentary inquiries within Victoria and proposed. This review has been commissioned by the across Australia have concluded that the interests of Premier in accordance with the government's Parliament and taxpayers are best served by an commitment to review and, where appropriate, reform Auditor-General as a single independent voice with legislation that restricts competition. audit responsibility extending across the whole spectrum of government activity, free from government In commenting on the review, I have issued the influence or control, and with a mandate to audit and following press release. investigate wherever and in whatever way deemed necessary. The letter then quotes the press release, which is headed 'Threat to the Role and Independence of the In my eight years of reporting in the public interest Victorian Auditor-General': without fear or favour, I view this government action as representing the greatest threat to the independence While I acknowledge the government's right to apply and even the very existence of my role, and to the the national competition policy to its own operations, Parliament's and the community's right to know. this review involves a fundamental challenge to a key element of the Westminster system of parliamentary The Auditor-General's letter then goes on: democracy in that my freedom to independently audit AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1587

It is my intention to provide a written submission to the through the long list of people who have review secretariat arguing that any review of the commented about the review it is hard to find a Auditor-General's role is the sole prerogative of the single individual, apart from government members, Parliament, and any changes to that role should only be including the Treasurer and the Premier, who has considered if it believes they would strengthen the supported the review. If you talk to the accountants, Auditor-General's independence and freedom to the experts in the field, or former Auditors-General examine and report to the Parliament on the full ambit or the federal government, you cannot find a person of public sector activities. who is prepared to come out and support the review.

I am concerned that any measures which compromise We need to ask some questions. We need to ask the the statutory independence and effectiveness of Minister for Transport, the honourable member for Parliament's external audit function will weaken the Wonthaggi, whether he has endorsed and supported ability of Parliament to provide the constitutional the review. No, he hasn't. Did the Minister for checks and balances on the exercise of executive Education, when he appeared before the all-party government power. Public Accounts and Estimates Committee, endorse the review? No, he didn't. Did the Attorney-General, Accordingly, I seek your support, as a member of when she appeared and was asked about her views Parliament, in defending the integrity of the institution of the Auditor-General, endorse the review? The of Parliament. answer is no. Did the New South Wales government endorse the Victorian government's review? Did it Yours sincerely say the review was consistent with competition policy? The answer is no. Mr Speaker, when you CA. BARAGWANAlH were asked iri. this Parliament whether you endorsed the review the answer, according to the media, was Auditor-General no, you didn't. Did the chairman of the committee, an honourable member in the other place, 21.11.1996 Mr Forwood, endorse the review when he was asked about it? The answer is? As I said when we discussed whether this debate could be brought on today, in the years I have spent Opposition Members - No! in this place or indeed in the eight years for which the Auditor-General has held that office I have not Mr BRUMBY - When the members of the known him to take such unprecedented action as to national competition council were asked about the write to all members of Parliament. review, did they endorse it?

Mrs Wilson - He didn't when we were in office. Opposition Members - No!

Mr BRUMBY - He certainly didn't have to Mr BRUMBY - Did the Age, the Herald Sun or when the Labor government was in office, but now the Australian in their editorials endorse the review? he has felt it necessary to write to all members of The answer is? Parliament saying that this action by the government - the Premier and the Treasurer - Opposition Members - No! represents the greatest threat to his independence, freedom and integrity, the role of the Parliament and Mr BRUMBY - The Howard government has a the community's right to know that he has known in totally different approach. Did it endorse the the eight years he has been in the job. You cannot review? The answer is? put it any more strongly than the Auditor-General has put it. Opposition Members - No!

Today in the debate about whether the motion Mr BRUMBY - We have more. Did the Victorian would be accepted we heard tenuous, feeble, Council for Civil Uberties in its comments endorse pathetic arguments from the government - that is, the review? from the Treasurer and the Leader of the House - trying to ensure that this matter could not be Mr Carli - Definitely no! properly debated in the house. It is no wonder we heard that sort of argument because when you look AUDITOR-GENERAL

1588 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

Mr BRUMBY - Definitely no! Did the Australian I have very great respect for the Auditor-General. In Council of Auditors-General endorse the review? large measure what he has addressed in my depamnent has received very great plaudits and Opposition Members - No! indeed very big ticks.

Mr BRUMBY - Did the New South Wales The Australian of 22 November reports: Auditor-General, Mr Tony Harris, endorse the review? No. Did the Australian Society of Practising The Education Minister, Mr Phil Gude, expressed Accountants endorse the review? strong confidence in Mr Baragwanath in evidence before the Public Accounts and Estimates Committee. Opposition Members - No! According to the Australian of 29 November, when Mr BRUMBY - When he was asked, did asked, the Attorney-General joined other ministers Mr Costello endorse the review? in supporting Mr Baragwanath. She said she was not aware of any problems with his performance. Opposition Members - No! In response to what the Treasurer said in question The SPEAKER - Order! The Leader of the time last week the New South Wales Treasurer, Opposition does not need a chorus behind him to Michael Egan, rejected as nonsense the claims by the support his argument. Victorian government that New South Wales was considering privatising the functions of the state Mr BRUMBY - Did the Law Institute of Victoria Auditor-General. He said: endorse the review? No. Did the previous chairman of the joint Public Accounts and Estimates Mr Stockdale might think privatising the Committee endorse the review? No, he did not. He Auditor-General is a top idea. We don't. bagged it. Did the managing director of the Australian Stock Exchange, Mr Richard Humphry, You, Mr Speaker, said in Parliament that you would endorse the review? No. Did the National Institute be keeping a watching brief to ensure as best you of Accountants endorse the review? No. One can go can as Speaker of this Parliament that that process is through list after list of organisations, different not in any way compromised by a review. levels of government, the Australian Stock Exchange, certified practising accountants and John The chairman of the Joint Public Accounts and Howard in the federal government but one cannot Estimates Committee, Mr Forwood, is reported in find a soul who supports the review because the Herald Sun of 23 November as saying there everybody knows, as I said yesterday in question should be no external or organisational impairment time, that its real purpose is to 'stitch up the to restrict the Auditor-General in discharging his or Auditor-General'. her audit functions. Mr Matthew Pinkney of the Herald Sun of 23 November described it as an The reason the government wants to stitch up the all-party parliamentary committee dealing a blow to Auditor-General is that he has been critical of it. He the Victorian government. The government claims has produced reports about the casino, government the review has to do with national competition advertising and child protection. He has been a policy. However, the Age of 28 November reports: scathing critic of the government in a whole range of areas. The response of the government has been to The National Competition Council said yesterday that scour through every bit of legislation to try to find a review of the Auditor-General's office was not a one link, however tenuous, that it can use to nobble priority of the national competition agreement which the Auditor-General. That is what the review is all stipulates that states and territories subject their about. activities to competition. The executive director of the National Competition Council said that I shall place on record actual quotes on the matter Auditor-General reform was not a big-ticket reform of before dealing with the Auditor-General's letter and the competition agreement. He said it was a low the lawfulness of the review. The Minister for priority area. Transport reportedly told the Australian on 28 November: So he did not support the review. The Age editorial of 22 November entitled 'Democracy in the firing line' states: AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1589

The proposal to allow government departments to Last week the Council for Civil Liberties wrote to all select their own auditors made by the Premier, members of Parliament. Its executive director, Mr Jeff Kennett, this week, is a seditious idea that Mr Joseph O'Reilly, strongly condemned the state should go no further. government's moves to review the office as the latest in a long line of attacks on independent statutory The Age editorial of 29 November is entitled 'The bodies in Victoria. The Australasian Council of troublesome priest' and talks about Auditors-General in the Herald Sun of 26 November: Mr Baragwanath's independence and why he has to be retained in a fully independent capacity. Today's ... described the proposed reforms to the role of Victoria Herald Sun, which has an editorial entitled Auditor-General, Ches Baragwanath, as dangerous. 'Conflicting interests', says this of the government: What the Premier and the Treasurer are doing is It has already been too easily accused of mounting the dangerous. The New South Wales Auditor-General, inquiry because it was unhappy with criticism levelled Mr Tony Harris, who spoke yesterday at a against it by Mr Ches Baragwanath. conference said:

But the latest revelation - that two of the three The government's moves to examine privatising members of the government-appointed review panel Mr Baragwanath's functions stood in direct contrast to have been associated with companies involved in recommendations from royal commissions. matters which drew serious criticism from Mr Baragwanath - is of some concern. Neither royal commission contemplated that any government could act to weaken the strength of the The editorial in the Herald Sun of 25 November, Auditor-General. entitled 'A brake on excess', states: So, using their logic ... any weakening of the role of the Electors, whatever their political allegiance, should not Auditor-General must increase the risk of corruption. tolerate any attempt by the ruling coalition to censor or subvert the Auditor-General's role. We cannot get any stronger comment than that. The Age of 22 November reports comments of the The editorial of the Sunday Age of 24 November is Australian Society of Certified Practising entitled 'A watchdog they must not muzzle'. The Accountants under the heading 'Outcry to protect articles go on and on. What is the view of the federal auditor's powers': government? Perhaps that view was best put by John Howard before the last federal election when Any move to erode the independence of government he said: audits would be against the public interest, Australia's professional accountancy organisations have warned. I wish in advance of the election of a coalition government to commit the next government of this , Any proposal to interfere with the independence of the country to a series of reforms which will restore greater Auditor-General, Mr Ches Baragwanath, should set authority, dignity and meaning to our parliamentary alarm bells ringing among the wider population institutions. because an independent auditor is one of the pillars of a democratic society,' said the society's executive We will establish a completely independent director, Mr Michael McKenna. Auditor-General SO that a fearless and authoritative surveillance of government departments can occur To claim that such an office should be subject to a without intimidation from the executive. review about the efficiency of government is to completely distort what the office is about. It assumes Under the coalition the Auditor-General will be an that the Auditor-General is accountable to the officer of the Parliament. government of the day. He is not. He must report his findings to the Parliament as a whole, and that is a very That is what is happening federally. The federal joint different but a very important distinction. public accounts committee has reported on the matter, giving Prime Minister Howard a whole The federal Treasurer, Mr Costello, was reported in series of recommendations to make the the Age of 29 November: Auditor-General more independent. AUDITOR-GENERAL

1590 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

The Federal Treasurer, Mr Peter Costello, reiterated his been provided by none other than Mr Frank government's intention to enhance the independence of Costigan, QC, who was appointed by the Fraser the federal Auditor-General through legislation. federal government to inquire into the activities of the painters and dockers. This is what Mr Costigan Mr Costello told 3AW this was 'because it's important says about the legality of what the Premier and the to ensure that there's very strong financial scrutiny and Treasurer are doing to the Auditor-General: it's been our policy for quite some time to do that.' I have been asked to advise the shadow treasurer as a Similarly the president of the Law Institute of matter of urgency as to the validity of a proposed Victoria, Mr James Syme, is reported as saying: review by the government of the Audit Act.

The suggestion that individual government I do so in this short memorandum. Its length is a factor departments could appoint their own auditors was to of its urgency, not of its importance ... 'completely misconceive' the role of the Auditor-General. The review is described as the National Competition Policy Review of Legislative Restrictions on The previous chairman of the Public Accounts and Competition: Review of the Audit Act 1944. Estimates Committee, Mr Graeme Weideman, is reported by the Herald Sun of 25 November as In the public notice the review is said to have been saying: commissioned by the Premier in accordance with the government's order to review and where appropriate I cannot understate the great importance placed by the reform legislation that restricts competition. committee, and myself, on ensuring the continuation of an independent and strong office of the It is accordingly necessary to understand the Auditor-General. background to the national competition policy.

The Sunday Age of 24 November reports: On 11 April 1995 the commonwealth, the states (including Victoria) and territories entered into three The managing director of the Australian Stock agreements: namely, the competition principles Exchange, Mr Richard Humpruy, yesterday joined the agreement, the conduct code agreement and the fight against moves to water down the independence of agreement to implement the national competition the parliamentary watchdog. policy and related reforms.

Mr Humphry said it was standard for the Following the agreements of 11 April 1995 the Auditor-General's office to contract out some functions Commonwealth parliament passed the Competition to private firms but those firms reported to the Policy Reform 1995. Auditor-General's office, which retained control. In turn the Victorian Parliament passed the He said it was unacceptable for government Competition Policy Reform (Victoria) Act 1995. departments to employ Or contract their own auditors. 'The point is that if you have a department employing The purpose of the Victorian act was 'to apply certain its own auditor, and the auditor produces a report that laws of the commonwealth relating to competition doesn't please the department, then it may not see the policy as laws of Victoria' ... light of day,' Mr Humphry said. The method adopted ... was to apply Significant parts of You could not get a more broadly based the Trade Practices Act as a law of Victoria. It did so by cross-section of Victorians and Australians, all of incorporating into Victorian law the competition code whom have universally condemned the action taken text as defined by section 4 of the act. In essence, the by the Kennett government. competition code text consists of the schedule version of part IV of the Trade Practices Act (Commonwealth) One of the points the government has consistently together with most of the remaining sections of the made is that the review is required under the Trade Practices Act. The schedule version is defined in national competition policy process. The state section 3 as 'the text that is set out in the schedule to the opposition has obtained independent legal advice on Trade Practices Act'. the legality of the government's actions, which I intend to read to the house. The legal advice has Section 2B of the Trade Practices Act ... provides: AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1591

'Part IV ... bind(s) the Crown in right of each of the To achieve and maintain consistent and states ... so far as the Crown carries on a business, complementary competition laws and policies either directly or by an authority of the state ... which will apply to all businesses in Australia regardless of ownership. In Refrigerated Express Lines (Ajasia) Pty Ltd v. Australian Meat and Livestock Corporation ... Mr Justice Deane ... I emphasise, as Mr Costigan does, the words 'to all said: businesses in Australia'. We now come to the crunch of Mr Costigan's legal opinion. In the last three Part IV of the act is headed 'Restrictive Trade paragraphs of his advice he says: Practices'. The general pwpose and scope of the part can be described by saying that it contains There is no obligation to review legislation under this provisions which proscribe and regulate agreement unless: agreements and conduct and which are aimed at procuring and maintaining competition in trade (a) it restricts competition and commerce. Broadly speaking, these provisions (b) [it is] in business activities. either control or proscribe the making of certain contracts or arrangements or the reaching of Indeed, it is quite inappropriate to identify the pwpose certain understandings, the giving or extracting of of the review as coming under national competition certain covenants in relation to land, the engaging policy (as has happened on this occasion) if there is no in conduct involving a secondary boycott, restriction of competition in the Audit Act in business engaging in the practices of monopolisation activities. exclusive dealing or resale price maintenance, engaging in predatory price discrimination, and An examination of the Audit Act makes it clear: the increasing of market share by means of the Audit Act is not concerned with trade or takeover or merger ... commerce, The phrase 'trade and commerce' has a restricted the Auditor-General is not carrying on a business. operation: see the decision of the High Court in Concrete Constructions v. Nelson ... At page 604 in a joint On the contrary the role of the Auditor-General is an judgment Mason, CJ, Deane, Dawson and Gaudron, JJ, essential part of the checks and balances of said: government. He is provided with a fixed period of appointment and any suspension or removal from What the section is concerned with is the conduct office involves the consideration and/ or the of a corporation towards persons, be they determination of both houses of Parliament. consumers or not, with whom it (or those whose interest it represents or is seeking to promote) has There is no role for the application of the Trade or may have dealings in the course of those Practices Act to his position. activities or transactions which, of their nature, bear a trading or commercial character ... In the circwnstances it is clear that the attempt to base The emphasis is on 'bear a trading or commercial the review on the national competition policy is flawed character'. beyond correction. It should be abandoned forthwith.

The Trade Practices Act is accordingly and The advice is dated 2 December, 1996, and is signed transparently concerned with the maintenance of by Frank Costigan, QC. You cannot get any better competition in trade and commerce. than that. Mr Frank Costigan, the QC appointed by the Fraser federal government years ago to do the Clause 5 of the competition principles agreement deals painters and dockers royal commission, is saying in with legislation review. Each party is obliged to legal advice provided to the opposition that the develop a timetable for the review and, where government's action has no basis in law, that it is appropriate, reform of all legislation that restricts unlawful, that it is ultra vires, and that the competition. Clause 5(9) sets out matters to be government should cease its action forthwith. considered in the review: these matters are repeated word for word in the terms of reference for the review Today, I have read out a list of 20 or 30 prominent of the Audit Act. organisations, representatives of other levels of government and accountant organisations, media The competition principles agreement ... recorded the commentators, and experts in the field, all of whom agreement of the parties: have condemned the review. They condemned it because they see it for what it is - nothing more AUDITOR-GENERAL

1592 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 than an attempt to silence, nobble and do a hatchet available is that it is done straightaway. The job on the Auditor-General, because this Treasurer will be the next speaker on the motion; government simply cannot abide criticism. If you therefore, he should be given the document so that dare to speak out in this society - if you dare, as he has at least 1 minute to look at it beforehand. Moira Rayner and Bernard Bongiorno did and as the Mr Acting Speaker, I suggest that you rule that the Auditor-General has done, to question the Treasurer Leader of the Opposition make the document or the Premier - they will take the hatchet to you! available now, because that is the usual practice of this house. This government is prepared to use any tenuous link with the law it can find to silence the The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Perton) - Order! Auditor-General, while trying to make it look like The Leader of the Opposition has indicated that he the legal action of a reasonable government! No will make it available at the end of his speech. other government anywhere in Australia is doing what this government is doing. For their part, the Mr BRUMBY - The letter continues: federal Treasurer, Mr Costello - or Dog, as the Premier calls him - and the Prime Minister are In the circumstances it is dear that the attempt to base doing exactly the opposite. They are bringing in the review on the national competition policy is flawed legislation which will strengthen the independence beyond correction. It should be abandoned forthwith. of the federal Auditor-General and make him or her directly accountable to Parliament. Let us debate this matter in the house. The government should abandon the review forthwith; it We will canvass many other matters today. It is a should rid the Auditor-General of this political pity the full time available cannot be used because witch-hunt; it should let the Auditor-General do his an hour was wasted answering the tenuous job in the way he should. objections put up by the Treasurer. When he was in opposition the Treasurer enjoyed the opportunity to Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - As a fellow speak unrestricted and unfettered for 11;4 hours member of the Victorian bar, I have great respect for about the importance of the Auditor-General. Mr Costigan, QC, but like all legal opinions -- However, now he is in government and is being criticised the Treasurer applies a different set of An honourable member interjected. standards. The opposition will be raising this matter again today during question time and it will raise it Mr STOCKDALE - Will we have a debate or again with the media. So there is no doubt about this will opposition members attempt to shout me down? whatsoever, the legal advice provided by Mr Frank Costigan, QC, to the state opposition on the review Mr Batchelor - He does not like democracy or of the Audit Act concludes that there is no basis in debate! law-- The ACI1NG SPEAKER (Mr Perton) - Order! Mr Stockdale - On a point of order, Mr Acting The Treasurer deserves to be heard in silence. Speaker, the Leader of the OppOSition has made extensive reference to a legal opinion, a copy of Mr STOCKDALE - Like all legal opinions, its which is not available to the government. I request relevance to the issue at hand depends upon the that he make a copy available to the government. nature of the question asked. In this case, as in many instances, the Labor Party has misdirected the The ACfING SPEAKER (Mr Perton) - Will the people from whom it seeks support. The opening honourable member make a copy available? paragraph of Mr Costigan's advice states:

Mr BRUMBY - I will do that at the conclusion of I am asked to advise the shadow Treasurer as a matter my remarks. Mr Costigan concludes: of urgency as to the validity of a proposed review by the government of the Audit Act. I do so in this short There is no role for the application of the Trade memorandum. Practices Act to his position -- The opinion, however, addresses the issue which the Mr E. R. Smith - On a point of order, Mr Acting opposition had clearly put to Mr Costigan - Speaker, the usual practice in this place when it is namely, that it is a review of the audit office and of requested that an article or document be made the Auditor-General's functions. That is not the case, AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1593 and that explains why Mr Costigan's argument is intergovernmental agreement. A range of options is misdirected. available, including preserving entirely the status quo in this situation. The Premier has emphasised Mr Batchelor - What does it say at the top? that the undertaking of a review and the posing of issues for the review members to address does not Mr STOCKDALE - Does the honourable presuppose any outcome. member for Thomastown want to speak next or does he want to speak now? Mr Baker interjected.

The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Perton) - Order! I Mr STOCKDALE - The essence of the terms of ask opposition members at the table to allow the reference is to pose the competitive issue raised by Treasurer to proceed uninterrupted. the monopoly position conferred upon the Auditor-General. To state an issue does not Mr STOCKDALE - The Victorian government, presuppose an answer. The government is obliged to in common with all other state governments which conduct a review. If the line being argued by the are signatories to the COAG agreement on national Leader of the Opposition were correct, why would competition policy, has an obligation to review all of New South Wales publish at virtually the same date its legislation to determine -- a list of the legislation it proposed to review pursuant to its obligations under the national Mr Batchelor - That is not correct. competition agreement, which includes its audit act? The government is obligated to conduct the review. Mr STOCKDALE - The honourable member for Thomastown claims that no other government is I have not had an opportunity to read Mr Costigan's reviewing its Audit Act. That is simply incorrect. I opinion, but I would be very surprised if he were have provided to the opposition a copy of the list of suggesting that the exclusion from a particular area acts New South Wales is proposing to review, and it of activity of all but one statutory officer makes includes the audit provisions of the New South irrelevant the restrictions on other parties Wales legislation. Once again, the opposition has not participating in that process. The issue is not done its homework. It is misconstruing and whether the Auditor-General has a monopoly but misdirecting the debate on this issue. Once again, whether the provisions of the Audit Act impose this undemocratic opposition seeks to shout down restrictions on competition by other participants in anyone who dares to put an alternate point of view. Australian commerce and business. The opposition is arguing not only that the legislation does that but The agreement does not require a review of the that it is quite proper for that to be the case. It may audit office or the Auditor-General's functions, as is be that the review reaches that conclusion. Even if constantly suggested by the Labor Party; it requires the review does not reach that conclusion the a review of the Victorian legislation. It is patently government may reach that conclusion. That does absurd for the Leader of the Opposition to use not excuse the government from conducting the Mr Costigan's opinion to argue that the question of review. whether restrictions are imposed on business in Australia by any monopoly conferred on the The government has identified 420 pieces of Auditor-General is resolved by the nature of the legislation and regulation as possibly constituting Auditor-General's office. The essence of the exercise restrictions on competition. The National which must be taken under the competition policy Competition Council, a joint body established by all review is to determine whether provisions of the states and the commonwealth, has approved the Victorian legislation impose any uncompetitive Victorian timetable for reviewing legislation, and the restrictions on other activity. timetable was released publicly in Victoria and New South Wales in June this year. The New South Wales The mere fact - and the opposition has overlooked list includes the equivalent of our Audit Act, and the this matter - that there are competition restrictions New South Wales government has made it clear in in legislation does not mean the legislation will be public statements that it is proposing to honour its proposed for alteration. It may raise issues about obligation to conduct a review of its audit legislation. whether exemptions should be sought, whether authorisations will be required under certain However, we do not have hysteria from the legislation under the Trade Practices Act or whether opposition. We have consistent misrepresentation by notifications need to be made under the the Leader of the Opposition via the press release AUDITOR-GENERAL

1594 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 put out by Treasurer Egan. Just as Mr Costigan was Victorian Audit Act. So we are not alone in this view given his terms of reference by the Labor Party to and even a Labor Party government recognises that produce the result it wanted, so the information that is the effect of the national competition policy. conveyed to Mr Egan was on its face inaccurate. Mr Egan commented on what he was told is the Fourthly, the Labor Party has argued that any Victorian government's proposition - indeed, my attempt to contract out audits is incompatible with proposition - that the Victorian Audit Office would the independence of the Auditor-General. That is not be privatised. That has never been suggested. It was something the Auditor-General supports. We do not not suggested by me, but it is the proposition have to take simply the Auditor-General's word for advanced by the Victorian Labor Party to Treasurer that, we can take his actions. The Auditor-General Egan and the proposition to which he responded. contracts out a substantial portion of his audit work His response is completely misdirected except for without any reflection whatever on the the fact that it concedes that New South Wales will independence of his office. conduct a review of its Audit Act. Fifthly, it is claimed that it is improper for an entity This whole debate has been bedevilled by subject to audit to appoint its own auditor. That is misrepresentation by the Labor Party. The first not proposed in this case, but it illustrates how misrepresentation was that the Auditor-General or extreme and ridiculous the arguments of the his office was being reviewed and not the act. The opposition are. In the Australian private sector, so Auditor-General's letter at least makes it clear that far as I am aware, every company - I know of no he understands a review of legislation is taking exception - appoints its own auditor. place - the responsibility of the executive government and this Parliament and not the Mr Bracks - The shareholders do. responsibility of the Auditor-General. Mr STOCKDALE - The honourable member for Secondly, it has been argued repeatedly by the Williamstown is inaccurate because, although it is a opposition, and recycled by public commentators, public meeting of the corporation that appoints the that the Auditor-General is an officer of the auditor, it is not the shareholders in their character Parliament and that somehow he ought not to be as-- scrutinised by a review initiated by the executive government pursuant to a national agreement. There Mr Bracks intetjected. is no less an authority on that than the Speaker himself. When this matter was raised on Mr STOCKDALE - The resolution appointing 21 November 1996 the honourable member for the auditor of every private sector company in Williamstown referred to the very letter that has Australia is a resolution of the company. The only been referred to today. At page 1434 of Hansard the character of the shareholders' participation is as Speaker is reported as having said: members of the corporation. They vote for the appointment at a general meeting of the corporation. A number of people have commented that the Despite the fact that it is utterly irrelevant to this Auditor-General is an officer of the Parliament, which argument, the opposition is factually incorrect. in fact is not correct. Finally, it is argued that the government is attacking The very basis for the argument that the audit the independence of the Auditor-General. What do legislation ought to be beyond review is supported we have as evidence of this claim? Today the Leader by the allegation that the Auditor-General is an of the Opposition quoted comments made by the officer of the Parliament. That argument falls to the Minister for Transport supporting the independence ground on the express ruling of the Speaker. of the Auditor-General as evidence that the government is attacking the independence of the Thirdly, it is argued that the national competition Auditor-General. The opposition says, 'Oh no, we policy does not require a review of audit legislation. weren't talking about the Minister for Transport, we On its face the agreement is utterly incompatible were talking about the Premier'. How does the with that, but no attempt has been made by the opposition account for the fact that on radio last opposition to explain the fact that the New South Friday the Premier gave an unequivocal Wales government, independently of the Victorian commitment that the government would maintain government, drew up a list of legislation which the independence of the Auditor-General? required review and included the equivalent of the AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1595

Mr Hulls - That is what he said about the DPP. to make his determination. He was given the competition legislation, the Audit Act 1994 and the Mr STOCKDALE - You are a very good hater. terms of reference. I gave no advice or opinion to It blinds you to effectiveness. I cannot wait until you him personally. The legal opinion we have results become Leader of the Opposition. That will be a from Mr Costigan's scrutiny of those three great day for this government. documents.

The fact that the Premier gave an unequivocal The Treasurer, without reading the advice, says the endorsement of the independence of the opposition misconstrued the matters given to Auditor-General and the fact that I have given the Mr Costigan. That is a slur on Mr Costigan and a strongest possible endorsement of the independence slur on the opposition. The Treasurer will say of the Auditor-General is utterly incompatible with absolutely anything to defend the indefensible. I the reliance the opposition places on the statements urge the Treasurer to read Mr Costigan's advice. made by the Minister for Transport and other That advice is unequivocal. For those honourable ministers of this government. There is no intention members who were not present when the document to question the independence of the was tabled I will read the last paragraph again. The Auditor-General, and I and other members of this document was signed on 2 December 1996 by Frank government stand four-square on preserving the Costigan, QC. The last paragraph reads: independence of the Auditor-General. There is no qualification on the independence of the In the circumstances it is clear that the attempt to base Auditor-General. This government gives an the review on the national competition policy is flawed unequivocal commitment that the independence of beyond correction. It should be abandoned forthwith. the Auditor-General will be preserved. One would have hoped the government would have Nevertheless, we are obliged to honour our its own legal advice on this matter. I urge the commitments, just as the New South Wales Treasurer and the Premier to table that legal advice. government is honouring its commitments. We will If the Treasurer has legal advice or an opinion on the preserve the independence of the Auditor-General at competition legislation or the Trade Practices Act I the same time as we conduct the review of his urge him to produce it. legislation that is required by the national agreement to which all Australian governments are signatories. I urge the Treasurer to table or release the government's advice on that matter. The Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I could spend independent advice obtained by the opposition is the whole of my 15 minutes in refutation of the that the review is illegal and is ultra vires the Trade Treasurer. I will spend part of it in that and I will Practices Act. bring in some new material as well. The Treasurer also invited us to trust the Premier. I The Treasurer claimed that he has not read the legal thought it was rather bold and up front of the opinion given by Frank Costigan, QC, which the Treasurer to suggest that. He said the Premier gave opposition sought, yet he set about trying to an assurance, on 3AW I think it was, that there was denigrate it and the basis on which Mr Costigan no threat to the Auditor-General's Office. He said, gave his advice. The Treasurer has time to read it 'Trust me, I can give you the Premier's guarantee'. now if he wishes to. The first paragraph reads: Why won't the Premier and the Treasurer change the terms of reference of the review of the Audit Act, I am asked to advise the shadow Treasurer as a matter as recommended by the Australian Society of of urgency as to the validity of the proposed review by Certified Practising Accountants? That society­ the government of the Audit Act. some members of this house, including government members, belong to that society - has given advice The Treasurer would have us believe that somehow to every member of Parliament that the terms of this matter was put to Mr Costigan as a review of reference should be changed to ensure the the Auditor-General. It was not. I can inform the independence of the Auditor-General's Office is Treasurer and the house of exactly what was given maintained. The Treasurer says the Premier should to Mr Costigan. I did not personally speak to be trusted on this matter. The only way the Premier Mr Costigan - he was briefed by legal could be trusted is if he changes the terms of advisers - but only three documents were given to reference. him. No opinion was given to him in order for him AUDITOR-GENERAL

1596 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

An examination of the terms of reference shows Victorian Auditor-General' - he wrote that clearly that the dice are loaded: it is not a review of heading - the first paragraph states: the Audit Act, it is an attempt to nobble the Auditor-General and to restrict his independence in While I acknowledge the government's right to apply conducting performance audits. The terms of the national competition policy to its own operations ". reference for the review contain only two reform options: I acknowledge that, too, but one has only to look at the performance audit conducted recently on the The review should specifically address the Auditor-General's Office by Price Waterhouse to appropriateness of whether: realise there is no need for the review to proceed. If the Treasurer were honest and conducted a good removing the current restriction whereby the assessment of the performance audits for the public Auditor-General may authorise other persons to interest he would agree with that. undertake financial audits should be extended so that some, or all financial audits and performance audits It was revealed in the Age this week that the should be conducted by private auditing finns ... and Treasurer signed a letter as recently as about three dependent upon findings in relation to this, whether weeks ago saying that he was happy with the the Auditor-General should be responsible as the performance audit reviewing the efficiency and contracting agent, or if the agencies choose their own effectiveness of the Auditor-General. While the auditor, standards setter for financial and performance Treasurer signed off on that performance audit the audits. Premier has produced terms of reference to nobble the Auditor-General. Talk about inconsistency in I could believe some of the comments of the government! Treasurer if the terms of reference contained a clause which also referred to maintaining the current status I would like to know - it is a pity he did not reveal of the Auditor-General and the Auditor-General's this - whether the Treasurer has been a party to all Office. However, the terms of reference do not have the consultations about with the review. I want to that option. The reality is that the terms of reference know whether he was at the meeting at which the are absolutely loaded because the two key reform matter was discussed with the Auditor-General or options, which the Australian Society of Certified whether he absented himself from it. Given his Practising Accountants has asked every member to comments on this matter when he was in change, are stacked against the audit office. The opposition - they were extensive in reinforcing the terms of reference say nothing about the independence of the Auditor-General- I want to Auditor-General maintaining his current status and know whether the Treasurer is an accomplice to the position and the office remaining as it is. review. I am not sure about that so I will give the Treasurer the benefit of the doubt. I think the The government must simply toss out the findings Premier had a rush of blood to the head because of of the review, and it may do so if the pressure criticisms by the Auditor-General. Apart from the builds. A proper review of the Auditor-General's Auditor-General's report on the casino, which was Office should include a number of options, such as scathing of the government's take for the extension performance audits to assess the efficiency and of tables, the Auditor-General has not been overly performance of the office and to determine whether critical of the Treasurer, and the Treasurer has it is adhering to the national competition policy. I admitted that. believe it already is, and the Auditor-General believes that as well. The Premier cannot be trusted Mr Perrin interjected. because he will not take advice to change the terms of reference. Mr BRACKS - The interjection is the very point. He was critical of Labor governments, as he has been I will now deal with the substance of the motion critical of this government. That is the very point the moved by the Leader of the Opposition. A letter was honourable member for Bulleen should recognise: sent to each member of Parliament by the the reason an independent Auditor-General is Auditor-General on 21 November, and I shall deal needed is the very fact that he can be critical of with all parts of that letter. The first part is an governments regardless of their political persuasion. acknowledgment by the Auditor-General. Under the heading 'Threat to the role and independence of the The Premier was stung by two of the Auditor-General's reports. Special report no. 39 AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1597 entitled 'Marketing government services: are you priority. I admire the Treasurer for trying to defend being served?' - if you want to get close to the the Premier by saying that it is okay to bring the Premier you talk about advertising - really hurt matter forward and to have terms of reference that him. The great advertiser was criticised by the do not include status quo terms of reference and are Auditor-General in special report no. 39 by his not in accordance with the professional accounting deeming that 9 of the 17 items he reviewed were body that recommends against it. political advertising and not government advertising. Apart from advertising, what else is However, I refute absolutely the continual dear to the Premier's heart? It is a one-word answer: misrepresentation by the Treasurer in implying that Crown. the Auditor-General is comfortable about the review. In that regard he referred to a statement in The second big blow to the Premier was the report the Auditor-General's letter in which he said that it on ministerial portfolios of May 1996. Not only did is his intention to provide a written submission to the Auditor-General, Mr Ches Baragwanath, have a the review secretariat arguing that any review of the go at marketing, the Premier's sacred cow, but he Auditor-General's role is the sole prerogative of the also had a go at Crown Casino! No wonder the Parliament. I am annoyed that he failed to read the Premier set about nobbling the Auditor-General. At last part of the letter. The Auditor-General should be page 342 of his report the Auditor-General upset by the Treasurer's comment that the effectively says the government should have Auditor-General is happy with the review. The received $170 million more than it did from the implication that he is happy with the review is a increased number of gaming tables at Crown Casino misrepresentation of that comment. The from 200 to 350 and that the government was Auditor-General has said that he does not want this diddled out of that money by miscalculations. There review at all. is no other reason for attempting to nobble the powers of the Auditor-General. Mr CLARK (Box Hill) - I want to address the large number of misconceived arguments that have I refer to competition policy which, in his first been put in this debate. The first and most obviously paragraph, the Auditor-General says he does not incorrect argument is that the Auditor-General is an fear. An article in the Age of Thursday 28 November officer of the Parliament. Regardless of the merits of sta tes, in part: the issue, the fact is that the Auditor-General is not an officer of the Parliament. He is not on a par with The National Competition Council said yesterday that the Speaker and the President, or with the Clerks a review of the Auditor-General's Office was not a and other officers. Rather the Auditor-General is an priority of the national competition agreement, which independent statutory office-holder who has a very stipulates that states and territories subject their important role to play in ensuring accountability to activities to competition. the Parliament by the executive.

The Auditor-General's Office was due to be Mr Haermeyer - Exactly. reviewed in 1997 or 1998 under the schedule of the national competition policy. However, the Premier Mr CLARK - The honourable member for Yan brought it forward to 1996 because of criticism of Yean says 'exactly'. I do not think that matter is at advertising and Crown Casino. issue between the parties in this debate.

He is very sensitive about those two matters. For the As well, the Auditor-General has important Treasurer to suggest that this sort of review is going statutory protections, including the protection that on in other states is a misrepresentation of what is he or she carmot be removed from office except by a happening, because the Treasurer's counterpart in vote of the Parliament and sundry other protections New South Wales has said that he is aware that this designed to ensure that the Auditor-General is comes within the ambit of national competition independent and can report fearlessly to the policy but he ruled it out. He will not pursue the Parliament and hold the executive to account. I do possibility of allowing private accounting companies not think there is any debate across political lines on to audit and sign off audits of government that point. However, some go further and say that departments. Why does the Treasurer not rule it that means it is not in order for the government of out? He carmot defend competition policy with both the day to review the Audit Act. That conclusion the National Competition Council and his does not follow. counterpart in New South Wales saying it is not a AUDITOR-GENERAL

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Anybody is entitled to conduct a review of any piece The Leader of the Opposition and others referred to of legislation. The government can do so for its an opinion in a four-page memorandum prepared purposes; groups of citizens can do so for their by Mr Frank Costigan, QC. I and other members on purposes; the Society of Certified Practising the government side saw that document only when Accountants can set up a review of the act, form the Leader of the Opposition referred to it in his conclusions and make recommendations to remarks. Anybody can write an opinion. However, government or adopt policy decisions. The mere fact to do full justice in responding to a legal opinion that the government is considering a piece of requires time to reflect on and weigh up what the legislation does not mean anything. If the writer of the opinion said. However, having said government wanted to alter legislation on the basis that, I will make a couple of comments on of a review, it would have to come to Parliament and Mr Costigan's opinion. justify what it does in this arena and command a majority of both houses before the legislation could For a start, to the extent to which he uses the Trade be amended. Similarly, if the Society of Certified Practices Act to support his conclusions, his Practising Accountants wanted to put a policy argument is misconceived and irrelevant. Therefore, position to the public it would have to sell its case. the nub of his argument starts about midway down There is no merit in that argument. page 3 of his opinion where he refers to the competition principles agreement. It has also been suggested that the government's Intergovernmental agreements are more directly reviewing of the Audit Act in some way implies that relevant to this matter than any legislation. He refers the Auditor-General's activities are a subordinate to the competition principles agreement recording function of government. That does not follow, for the agreement of the parties to achieve and maintain the reasons I have outlined. The government is consistent and complementary competition laws reviewing the Audit Act. Irrespective of that, the which will apply to all businesses in Australia Auditor-General continues to function totally regardless of ownership. He then asks whether the independently of the government. The only nexus review of the Audit Act is necessary to promote with the government is through the funding and the competition or whether it is correct to regard the act administrative and bureaucratic arrangements that as legislation that restricts competition. have been in place since time immemorial. The government's review of the act does not cut across Mr Costigan makes a number of points on the final that; nor does it undermine the powers of page of his opinion that show he has asked himself Parliament. If any legislation is proposed as a result the wrong questions in this regard because he of this review, it will have to be debated in asserts that: Parliament and passed by Parliament, and those who introduce it into Parliament will be accountable the Audit Act is not concerned with trade or commerce to Parliament for what they put forward. the Auditor-General is not carrying on a business My argument is that it is the outcome of the review which is important. Conducting the review is on the contrary the role of the Auditor-General is an completely legitimate. I need hardly repeat the essential part of the checks and balances of arguments that have been put to the house at great govemment- length by the Treasurer and others demonstrating that this review will be carried out in accordance with national competition policy. Not even the opposition has tried to refute the fact that the New and so on. He also says: South Wales government has listed the audit act among its acts to be reviewed. The argument has There is no role for the application of the Trade been about what sort of review should be carried Practices Act to his pOSition. out, what the terms of reference of the review should be, and whether there is a possible role for private With respect to Mr Costigan, he is approaching the sector auditors. However, the fact is that issue from the wrong direction. The question that governments around this country are reviewing has to be asked under competition policy relates to audit acts as part of national competition policy, and the role of the private sector and whether there are it is completely appropriate for them to do so. restrictions on the involvement of private sector firms in participating in audit business. The question is: is this a field of activity - that is, the auditing of AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1599 government departments and government more competition, can that be done in a way that instrumentalities - from which private sector firms maintains the independence of the Auditor-General are being excluded without justification? That is and the ability of Parliament to receive full, frank what brings it into the ambit of the national and fearless accounts of what the executive has been competition policy and the review of legislation doing?'. under that national policy. To argue there is no way in which more competition I should add at this point, although I will come back can be introduced into the audit function without to it, that the mere fact that it is legitimate to ask compromising those universally applauded goals is these questions does not in any way pre-empt the not only to pre~mpt the result of the review but to answers to those questions. What we are debating at take a blinkered view of the range of possibilities. this point is not the outcome but the legitimacy of There is a wide range of possibilities for this review the review. It is perfectly appropriate to ask, 'Is there to consider that would achieve an outcome that scope to amend the Audit Act to remove the introduced more competition without in any way exclusion or limitation of the involvement of private compromising those fundamental goals; or at the sector firms in the process of auditing government very least it is legitimate for the authority to ask departments and government authorities?'. itself whether that is the case.

When that review gets under way a lot of vital To give simply one example, you could well allow questions of public policy have to be taken into the Auditor-General to approve a panel of auditors, account. As I said at the outset, I do not think there allow agencies to select auditors from that panel, is any difference of view on either side of this allow the Auditor-General to either sign off on the chamber on those questions - that is, questions final reports produced by the auditor selected from about the importance of the independence of the that panel of auditors or give him or her a right to Auditor-General, the importance of the executive review the conduct of the audit process - in effect, being held accountable to the Parliament on finances to audit the auditors. You could even conceivably and the importance of having a mechanism whereby say that the Auditor-General could do that in the finances of the executive and its agencies can be running and could step in at any time if he or she scrutinised without fear or favour and the outcome were dissatisfied with the process. of that scrutiny being reported to this Parliament. I put that up simply by way of example. I do not I do not think these are matters in issue; they are know whether in the final analysis even an example questions about the outcome of the review, not such as that would be considered to be a good way questions about the legitimacy of the review. To of proceeding. As I said, at this stage the question is rush in at this stage and say it is totally not whether this or any other model is a good way inappropriate to ask those question in the first place of doing things. The question is: are there reasonable misconceives the matter. If one looks at the terms of issues for a review to contemplate and is there a reference of the review one sees that these matters reasonable expectation that there may be ways of are posed as open questions to the review panel. It is opening up the audit function to private sector firms being asked specifically to address the that do not compromise the independence of the appropriateness of certain changes being made. It is Auditor-General and the ability of the Parliament to specifically told thereafter, depending upon the receive full and vigorous scrutiny of the actions of panel's findings on the appropriateness of removing the executive? a current restriction, to consider whether certain other changes ought to be made in consequence of To return to the nub of the debate, I do not believe that. the opposition has established any grounds whatsoever for being concerned about the legitimacy The logic is that the terms of reference themselves of the conduct of a review under national recognise that a balance is required and that there competition policy. I submit that its members,like are important issues of public policy that need to be the rest of us, should await the outcome of the taken into account in reaching the conclusions of the review and then form their judgments, depending review, that it is not simply a one-faceted question on what legislation might be brought into this house. such as, 'Can changes be made that will introduce more competition?'. The terms of reference mean Mr DOLLIS (Richmond) - What a extraordinary that members of the panel have to ask themselves contribution to the debate. The honourable member questions such as, 'If you are going to introduce for Box Hill is known for having integrity, at least. AUDITOR-GENERAL

1600 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

But even he could not make a case explaining why against the tyranny and injustice that can occur this government is attempting to review the Office of when governments like this attempt to govern or the Auditor-General and its functions. It was an pretend they are governing. The government is amazing attempt in trying to do what? To justify incapable of stating that it is wrong - and it was something that cannot be justified! The emperor is very wrong in attempting to do a review. naked; you can't clothe the emperor and present him to the public! It is impossible, even for the Mrs Tehan - Let the public decide. honourable member for Box Hill, to put one single argument that can justify the government's bully Mr DOLLIS - What an arrogant statement. The tactics. public was not informed that the government was attempting to restrict the activities of the If you want to know about bully tactics, let's go to an Auditor-General. If the minister wants to talk about article in the Age by Ms Rayner in which she talks the public she should remember what the about the dominance of ministers over all government said before the last election. The government activity at the cost of independent coalition government gave an assurance and an oversight by statutory officers or the courts and the undertaking that it would engage in open neutralising of independent statutory officers. If you government. If the government is interested in want some examples, we can talk about the Public engaging in open government it should use the Advocate, the Ombudsman, the Director of Public forums of Parliament for that purpose. Prosecutions and the Coroner, and now we are talking about the Auditor-General. If the government wants to review the office of the Auditor-General it should appoint a parliamentary What we have here is an extraordinary letter written committee to conduct that review. What has the under extraordinary circumstances to every member government to be fearful of? Of course a of Parliament. The Auditor-General is forced to parliamentary committee may not do what the write to every single member of Parliament to say government wants. Therefore if the minister wants quite clearly: to talk about the public she should remember the comments that both she and other ministers made to I am astonished to see that the role of the the public of Victoria about open government. What Auditor-General is regarded as a government activity a laughable proposition. It is also laughable that the and, therefore, subject to this review. In fact, my role government has any integrity. It should at least and that of my office is clearly separate from attempt to respect the independence of the government. The Auditor-General forms part of the Parliament of Victoria. Parliament's regulatory and accountability framework and is the principal source of independent information As I said before, so far the Public Advocate, the for both the Parliament and the Victorian taxpayers on Ombudsman, the Director of Public Prosecutions the performance and operations of the government and the Coroner have been removed from office. itself. Now the Auditor-General is under threat because this government is incapable of allowing in office If anybody wants to gain a clear idea of the principle anyone who has an independent voice or is of the separation of powers and why the prepared to scrutinise the activities of government. Auditor-General has been forced to take this extraordinary step -- The Premier's agenda is clear cut. He is misusing an argument about competition policy. Frank MI5 Tehan interjected. Costigan's advice on this matter is simple and straightforward: an examination of the Audit Act Mr DOLLIS - It is extraordinary because the makes it clear that that act is not concerned with minister cannot give an example of when the trade or commence; the Auditor-General is not Auditor-General in this state was last forced. to write carrying on a business. On the contrary the role of to every member of Parliament and ask for the the Auditor-General is an essential part of the checks protection of this place. and balances of government. That is simple and straightforward. The separation of powers is about the independence of the three arms of government - namely, the What happened to the courage of government legislature, the executive and the judiciary. The ministers, chairpersons of parliamentary committees principle of the separation of powers is to guard and parliamentarians to attempt at least in the first AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1601 week following the Premier's return from overseas nothing but a cheap excuse to add another scalp to to influence him to adopt a balanced view of the its list: Public Advocate, Ombudsman, Director of matter? When the Premier returned everybody Public Prosecutions and Coroner. The next will be rushed all over the place but no-one wanted to talk the Auditor-General. Nothing seems to stand about the independence and integrity of the between the government and the independence of Auditor-General. Suddenly it was silent right across Parliament's statutory officers because if they dare the government benches. Silence prevails because to criticise the government the next thing they find is members do not dare to express what they have all the executive deciding their future, and in most been whispering in the corridors of Parliament: that cases it is pretty bleak. this wmecessary review should not take place. In recent times the government has introduced This review should never take place the way it is 34 amendments to the Constitution including taking place because the independence of the limitations of the powers of the Supreme Court Auditor-General is of paramount importance if which deny ordinary Victorian citizens their rights. I Parliament is to function properly. The state should do not know of any government that has introduced not be reduced to a banana republic. We should not in such a short period 34 amendments to the reach the situation where it becomes laughable that Victorian Constitution. It is hard for us, let alone the anyone should attempt to scrutinise the government. public, to understand what the government is doing. All we know is that the government is wrong. It is The people of Victoria were lied to prior to the last attacking the independence of the Auditor-General election. That is why they are not able to understand and his office. If the Treasurer and other speakers the secret agenda of the government. The think they can show that the Auditor-General does Auditor-General is being forced to write to members not have any problems with the review, they should such as the honourable member for again read his letter entitled 'Threat to the role and Tullamarine -- independence of the Victorian Auditor-General'. It is a clear-cut attempt by the Auditor-General to appeal Mr Finn interjected. to Parliament and to the public to protect the role he has been given to scrutinise the finances of this state. Mr DOLUS - You have not read it? Maybe you No-one should have any doubts about it. have the comic book version. At a conference yesterday the New South Wales The ACTING SPEAKER (MI5 Peulich) - Order! Auditor-General said we should be warned. Playing The honourable member for Tullamarine is out of around with the Auditor-General and his office his place and disorderly. The honourable member could mean the introduction of corruption to this for Richmond should address the Chair. state. This is the warning the minister and the government must take note of. Here is another Mr DOLUS - The honourable member for independent commentator saying to the Tullamarine has a voice that spreads right across this government, 'Don't do it. Don't play around with house and it is incredibly difficult to avoid listening what is not yours. It is not your right to deal with the to him. The letter from the Auditor-General is Auditor-General, it is Parliament's right'. extraordinary. It deals with the threat to the independent role of the Auditor-General. I have not Honourable members interjecting. heard a single argument from an individual or an organisation in the community supporting the Mr DOLUS - Of course I am speaking through government's desire for a review of the functions of the Chair. Back to your seat. the Auditor-General's office. Usually somebody out there is at least prepared to argue in favour of what The ACTING SPEAKER (MI5 Peulich) - Order! the government is doing. However, on this occasion The member should ignore interjections. all the professions, every group in the community, every independent commentator and anyone who Mr DOLUS - The government is attempting to has any decency refuses to say the government is nobble the Auditor-General and to restrict his role. correct in conducting this review. The competition policy excuse is laughable, cheap and unjustified. Why is the government incapable of admitting that it is wrong in attempting to nobble the ~ The member for Box Hill attempted to give some independence of the Auditor-General? The review is logic to and justification for the government's move, AUDITOR-GENERAL

1602 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 but he failed miserably. The member knew he had to According to sources, backbenchers at yesterday'S carry the can as usual, but the integrity was not coalition meeting were expected to confront Premier there. He attempted to put a better case than the Jeff Kennett over moves to allow government Treasurer and he failed - and the member knows departments to choose their own auditors. that because ultimately he is a honest and decent man. If he does find the courage he will protect the The article says the whole thing fizzled out. Two independence of the office of the Auditor-General. other articles, one on page 5 of the Australian and The office must remain independent if government another in the Age, are very predictable. The Herald is to function properly and if the doctrine of the Sun has pushed it to one side, and the others separation of powers is to be adhered, so that future newspapers have merely said the issue is waning. generations can feel secure. Members of the opposition do not want to accept that although they thought they had an issue that The ACTING SPEAKER (Mrs Peulich) - Order! was ready to go, the public and the journalist now The honourable member's time has expired. understand the basis for the review and the responsible way in which it will be carried out. Mr E. R. SMITH (Glen Waverley) - Today we are seeing a typical Labor Party ploy. Over the past Today members of the opposition have pulled out a few weeks members of the opposition have tried to report by Frank Costigan, a very fine and whip up a campaign to give them some credence. well-known, QC, whom most of us in the Ever since the election we have heard nothing from community know for the great work he did during the opposition of any credence. The opposition now the painters and dockers royal commission. In the believes that this issue will at last enable it to get at first two paragraphs of his opinion he says he was the government. asked to give advice at short notice. At the end, instead of giving what I would have thought would The member for Richmond talked about the member be a legal opinion, he says: for Box Hill trying to defend the role of the Auditor-General. The member for Box Hill was not In the circumstances it is clear that the attempt to base on about that at all. Rather, he was defending the act the review on the national competition policy is flawed which governs the Auditor-General- and that is beyond correction. It should be abandoned forthwith. the point at issue. That is not a legal opinion. It is a political statement, Yesterday members of the Labor Party said loud and which all of us realise. Mr Costigan has been clear, both in the house and in the newspapers, that commissioned and no doubt paid handsomely by they hoped to get this one up. They claimed that the Labor Party - because he is a very professional someone in Finance and Treasury or someone in the person they would not dream of not paying him! He Premier's department - the story changed halfway has been asked for an opinion but has made a through - had told the Auditor-General that the political statement at the end of it. review would finally stitch him up. If there had not been any debate on the issue a claim such as that We have to look at what is behind all the hype. would not have been given any credence, because When listening to the debate this morning on the person was not named. whether or not the motion should be moved, I heard the Leader of the OppOSition and other Labor Party If you want to have a debate on a subject like this members say that this is the most urgent and most and if you want to get journalists and the media on important issue of the day. If we go to the trouble of side, you have to come up with facts. Yesterday, all reading the newspapers to see the main stories, we the opposition could say was that someone had find in the Herald Sun stories about a kidnap and allegedly said to the Auditor-General, 'Now we've Susan Sangster's jewels being stolen. In the Age, the got you stitched up'. To my way of thinking, that main story is on the cricket and an article on this should get you no headlines. What happened today? issue is buried on page 5. The main stories in the An article on page 2 of the Herald Sun says: Australian are on the Australian dollar and the debate between Mr Howard and Mr Fischer, and Victoria's embattled Auditor-General appears to have you have to go to page 5 to read about this one, as lost key support in his battle to scuttle a performance well. review of his office. This debate is being jazzed up by the Labor Party. The real issue is that a review is being carried out by AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1603 some extraordinarily well-qualified people who are newspaper to publish the story. It will be a fair letter known to the community as people of substance and asking for fair treatment. I will also send a copy to competence. The Labor Party has tried to besmirch the Herald Sun. their reputations, as it normally does with anybody the government appoints to any committee. This is Mr Bracks - On a point of order, Madam Acting not a review of the Auditor-General, it is a review of Speaker, the matter before the Chair is an the Audit Act. That is the whole point of it, and it is adjournment motion regarding the why the issue has come up ID the way it has. In spite Auditor-General's letter to members of Parliament. of all the attempts by the Labor Party, the Age and The ruling by Mr Speaker was that the matters the other newspapers to beat the issue up, that contained in that letter were the subject of the remains the case. debate. I have been here a only short time and I gave the honourable member an opportunity to get on Last night during the debate on the motion for the with the matter, but rather than debate the subject of adjournment of the sitting four Labor members the motion he wants to know about deadlines and raised matters for the attention of the Minister for whether the Age will print material favourable to the Education concerning school mergers. They were government. I ask you, Madam, to bring the worthy subjects, but they were cooked up in honourable member back to the motion. advance - I will prove that to the house later - with the help of the Age, because all four stories are Mr E. R. SMITH - On the point of order, reported in this moming's edition. As any member Madam Acting Speaker, I said when I commenced knows, if you go to the Age late at night with a story commenting on this matter that I would do so only you want published after having raised it on the in passing, which is what I was doing. If the Chair is adjournment, you are told, 'Sorry, the adjournment happy I will continue with the motion before the is too late. Unless you put it in before the deadline, house. you won't get it in'. I can prove that because I talked about school mergers in my electorate and in the The ACTING SPEAKER (Mrs Peulich) - Order! Dandenong North electorate, but there is no mention There is no point of order. I believe the honourable of that in the papers. member for Glen Waverley was attempting to explain that there had been ample opportunities to I would have thought any journalist who wanted to debate the issue and that those opportunities had be fair would try to balance things up. The member been forfeited. for Williamstown was one of the four Labor Party contributors to last night's adjournment debate, and Mr E. R. SMITH - Thank you, Madam Chair, for the member for Niddrie was another. Fair enough, your very wise ruling. The point we need to get they got their stories up because education is that across is that the Victorian government, along with particular reporter's forte. But when I told a story other state governments, has an obligation under the favourable to the government about the rewards the April 1995 COAG agreement on national schools were getting, the story did not appear. I am competition policy to review all legislation that may not complaining about that, but I am complaining restrict competition. That is a point made by the about the stories being cooked up in advance, Premier, the spokesman for the government, and because the Age deadlines are set beforehand. Had one that no ordinary person could ignore. A decision the newspaper tried, and I am sure the responsible was made by COAG to go ahead with the journalist would have tried to get mine in -- competition policy, and this is what the government is doing. Already 420 pieces of legislation and An Opposition Member - Journalists find you regulation which may restrict competition have been boring! identified. The timetable of the National Competition Council was released in June, and the Mr E. R. SMITH - I couldn't care less how the government is merely following the timetable that journalists find me. I am pointing out to the house - has been set. and the point is sticking - that that is typical of the way the Labor Party operates. It cooks up stories up The opposition fails to understand that the in advance and puts them in. Of course, anything Auditor-General is appointed by the Governor in from our side that balances the story is given no Council. The Premier is responsible for the Audit credence at all and does not get in. I will test that Act; the Premier is not responsible for the newspaper tomorrow. I will send a letter to the Age Auditor-General. The opposition tries to deny that raising these very points, and I challenge that fact. The opposition says the Auditor-General is an AUDITOR-GENERAL

1604 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 officer of the Parliament. The Auditor-General is not out the COAG policy. Members of the government an officer of the Parliament; he holds a statutory are very proud of that, and we cannot abide the position. TItis government, unlike some continual carping criticism by the opposition. The governments in Australia of either political opposition refuses to understand the facts because it persuasion, understands the separation of powers. thinks it is on to an issue on which it can beat the Any politician who has lived through the past government. Nothing could be further from the 10 years will know of the famous case of truth. The public understands it and the media Queensland's Joh Bjelke-Petersen who did not know understands it. The media will ensure that the the meaning of the separation of powers and opposition's attempts to try to beat up something thought it was a trick question. Every member of will end appropriately. Those attempts deserve to be Parliament is aware of the great responsibility ignored completely. attached to the separation of powers. Mr HULLS (Niddrie) - With her background in Honourable members interjecting. the law, a background that would make her eminently suitable to speak on the independence of Mr E. R. SMITH - Members of the opposition the Auditor-General, I thought the Attorney-General do not understand that the review is a review of the would have been anxious to speak in this debate. We act, not the Auditor-General. In the previous can glean from the fact that she chose not to speak Parliament I was a member of the Public Accounts on this matter that she does not support the and Estimates Committee for four years. That independence of the Auditor-General. The committee had excellent dealings with the Treasurer, and the government generally, has used Auditor-General and thought very highly of him. the guise of competition policy to attempt to give With his knowledge, the committee conducted two some semblance of credibility to taking the hatchet efficiency reviews of his office and the to the Auditor-General. The legal advice supplied to Auditor-General came through with flying colours. the coalition today by the opposition makes it clear All members in this Parliament either know the that any attempt to use competition policy or the Auditor-General personally or would have had a trade practices legislation to give some credibility to conversation with him at some stage. He is a fine the government's actions is a nonsense. In fact, the person, but that is not the issue. The Treasurer also attempted to use COAG to give some Auditor-General is not being reviewed; the Audit credibility to the review. I have said in this house Act, which he administers, is being reviewed. The previously that in this context COAG, as the government has not directed and will not direct any Treasurer knows, can stand only for crucifying the outcomes of the review. The review will be carried office of the Auditor-General, because that is exactly out and a report will be presented. The what is happening as a result of the review the recommendations will be considered before any government wants to undertake. action is taken to bring the Auditor-General into line with national competition policy. It is important to consider the legal advice because it is very clear and it totally dismisses the attempt by Mr Batchelor interjected. the government to gain credibility for the review. A number of government members have referred to Mr E. R. SMITH - Unlike the honourable Frank Costigan's credibility, yet they have also member for Thomastown, who cannot resist at any attempted to denigrate the advice he has given the stage bringing up his past, I will let that go for now. opposition. That advice has now been provided to The point is that the Auditor-General's Office and the government. the Audit Act will not be altered in any way unless this Parliament approves it. That is a matter that any A previous government speaker said that at the end normal person should understand. Opposition of his opinion Mr Costigan was actually giving members may smile, but in the past two weeks, we political advice to the government. Mr Costigan have seen nothing but hype on the part of the Labor made it quite clear in his opinion that any attempt to Party. It is desperately trying to clutch at straws. base the review on the national competition policy is This government is trying to defend the Audit Act. 'flawed beyond correction'. He is saying it is illegal. The review will make recommendations, and it is He is saying any attempt to do that is ultra vires and long overdue. the legislation would be illegal. He says it should be 'abandoned forthwith'. Mr Costigan is a QC and an This government is one of the first governments to eminent lawyer. One does not believe he would say, carry out the review and it is extremely keen to carry 'The review is illegal, but go ahead with it. I AUDITOR-GENERAL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1605 recommend that you go ahead with it'. It is not of this government'. As a result, this review is under political advice; it is legal advice. He is warning the way. government that the review is 'flawed beyond correction'. They are very strong words. He is saying The Treasurer denies that. He stood up in this house to the government, 'Be warned. Abandon it today and said, 'Believe what I have to say. Believe forthwith'. You cannot get much stronger advice what I said outside the house. Believe the guarantees than that. given by the Premier about preserving the independence of the Auditor-General'. We all know At page 31 of Hansard for 21 November this year the that that is a joke. We all know that there are many Treasurer is reported as having said: dead bodies around this state of people who dared to stand up to this Premier. We only have to look at We are obliged under the national agreement to carry Mr Bongiorno. I guess he must be sick of hearing out reviews of legislation which contain representatives of this government saying, 'Look, anti-competition policies. what we are all about is maintaining the independence of these bodies'. The fact is that the What he is really saying is that this government is government took the hatchet to Mr Bongiorno, just obliged to carry out reviews regardless of the nature as it took the hatchet to Moira Rayner and just as it of the office that is being reviewed. What he is intends taking the hatchet to the Auditor-General. saying does not make any sense because the Premier, on his return from overseas, was asked As the shadow Treasurer said, the Treasurer has about this issue by a journalist. The journalist asked, attempted to have this house believe that even the 'Well, are you really saying by using that argument Auditor-General has no problem with this review. that judges also are subject to this sort of review and On 21 November 1996 the Treasurer is reported in should be subject to competition policy?'. I have no Hansard as having said: doubt the journalist asked that question tongue-in-cheek. That conversation was reported in The Auditor-General says that it is his intention to an article and in the editorial of the Age of make a submission to the inquiry. 29 November 1996. The article reads: What the Treasurer is trying to say to the house is Mr Kennett was unable to give a definite answer on this: the Auditor-General has no problem with the whether the state's court system would also be inquiry; he is going to make a submission himself. subjected to the review. The government's published The letter from the Auditor-General makes this list of acts for competition scrutiny, released in June, matter quite clear. The Auditor-General wrote: does not include legislation covering the court system. It is my intention to provide a review submission to the The Premier himself was not able to say whether or review secretariat arguing that any review of the not the court system should be subject to such Auditor-General's role is the sole prerogative of the review. The editorial in the Age on that day quite Parliament, and any changes to that role should only be appropriately made the following point: considered if it believes they would strengthen the Auditor-General's independence and freedom to He was asked, not unexpectedly, if his policy of examine and report to the Parliament on the full ambit reviewing the competitive aspects of government of public sector activities. departments would also apply, for example, to the courts. He was unable to give a definite answer. This is It is nonsense for the Treasurer to come into this not the mark of a man in command of his policy. house and pretend the Auditor-General himself thinks this review is appropriate. One can say that again. This is a policy that has been made on the run by the Premier without One extremely sinister matter has come to light: the consultation with the Treasurer. The Premier has independence of the Public Accounts and Estimates had enough of the criticism of the government that Committee. As you would know, Madam Acting has been meted out by the Auditor-General. The last Speaker, the Public Accounts and Estimates straw was the Auditor-General's criticism of the Committee is charged under the Parliamentary $174 million gift from this government to Crown Committees Act with, among other things, Casino in relation to the extra gaming tables at the considering and reporting to the Parliament on any casino. The Premier said, 'Enough is enough. We proposal, matter or thing connected with public have to get rid of this bloke. He has been too critical administration or public sector finances. That AUDITOR-GENERAL

1606 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 involves reporting to this Parliament on the way. He was the signatory to the press release but independence of the Auditor-General. Reports have yesterday he backed away from that decision at a been issued in the past. In fact, a report of the Public million miles an hour. As a committee member that Accounts and Estimates Committee of causes me grave concern. September 1995 deals with the mandate and independence of the Auditor-General's office. The The question that must be asked is what pressure conclusion reached in the report was that the has been put on government members of that Auditor-General should be the nominated auditor committee by the Premier to reverse their original for all entities controlled by the state. It is as simple decision. It is quite clear that the committee believed as that. This review is attempting to avert that independent advice should be sought. That was decision. appropriate, particularly in light of Frank Costigan's advice - that is, the inquiry is ultra vires. The As a result of a letter recently sent to all members of committee wanted to find out whether it was ultra Parliament, the Public Accounts and Estimates vires and requested advice to ascertain if that were Committee decided to have an urgent meeting and the case. The committee unanimously reached that to call the Auditor-General before the committee to decision, yet the Premier attempted to put pressure explain why the letter had been written. Quite on the committee. In an article in the Herald Sun of obviously I will not divulge to this house exactly 29 November the Premier is reported as saying: what was said by the Auditor-General to that meeting. Members of the Public Accounts and ... 'So many of the comments that have been made have Estimates Committee were privy to an hour's been made in absolute ignorance by my own discussion with the Auditor-General. I can say that backbench and by the media ... the Auditor-General was extremely concerned. He spoke to the committee for about half an hour. He went on to slam Bill Forwood, the chairman of the committee, and other members of the committee As a result of what took place at that meeting the and questioned whether they had the right to do Public Accounts and Estimates Committee what they have done. The Premier is attempting to unanimously issued a press statement stating certain intimidate the committee and to undermine what things. Mr Bill Forwood, who is a member of has until now been the independent role of the another place, is the chairperson of that committee. committee - that is, to investigate matters pursuant He was the Signatory to that press release. Among to the Parliamentary Committees Act. The Labor other things the committee decided to request the members of the committee have grave concerns Clerk of the Legislative Assembly to seek and about whether it can now operate appropriately. provide independent advice in relation to whether the current review being undertaken by the The ACTING SPEAKER (MI5 Peulich) - Order! government is ultra vires the relevant competition The honourable member's time has expired. policy legislation. It was quite appropriate and necessary for the committee to do that. House divided on motion:

Certain things were said to the committee that made Ayes, 29 it quite clear that that ought to be done. As a result Andrianopoulos, Mr Kosky,Ms of that request the Premier, on his return from Baker,Mr Langdon,Mr overseas, slammed the chairman of the committee Batchelor, Mr Leighton, Mr and slammed the committee for daring to seek Bracks, Mr Um,Mr independent advice on whether or not this review is Brumby,Mr Loney,Mr ultra vires. That causes great concern to members of Cameron, Mr (Teller) Maddigan, Mrs the committee because the Premier is trying to put Campbell,Ms Micallef, Mr pressure on the committee to come to certain Carli,Mr Mildenhall, Mr conclusions and not to request independent advice. Cole,Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr That is not the role of the Premier of this state. Cunningham, Mr Savage,Mr Dollis,Mr Seitz,Mr What i~ of grave concern to me is that the chairman Garbutt,Ms Sheehan,Mr of that committee has now done a backflip on the Gillett, Ms (Teller) Thwaite5, Mr committee's original decision. I have the utmost Haermeyer, Mr Wilson,Mrs respect for the chairman of the committee because he Hulls,Mr has conducted committee hearings in a bipartisan QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1607

Noes,50 abandon his political witch-hunt to silence the state Andrighetto, Mr McLellan,Mr Auditor-General? Ashley,Mr Maclellan, Mr Brown,Mr McNamara, Mr Mr KENNETI (Premier) - I thank the Leader of Burke, Ms Maughan,Mr the Opposition for his question. I want to make two Clark, Mr Paterson, Mr points. The first is that the Leader of the Opposition Coleman,Mr Perrin,Mr should know that any legislation that is passed by Cooper, Mr Perton, Mr this Parliament -- Dean, Or Pescott,Mr Dixon, Mr Phillips, Mr Mr Brumby interjected. Doyle,Mr Reynolds, Mr Elder, Mr Richarcison, Mr Mr KENNETI - Does the Leader of the Finn,Mr Rowe,Mr Opposition want the answer or does he want to keep Gude,Mr Ryan,Mr interjecting? Because the Leader of the Opposition Henderson, Mrs Shardey, Mrs (Teller) has had some federal experience, albeit short, he Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr E.R should know that the passage of legislation and its Jasper, Mr Smith,MrI.W. receipt of the royal assent involves its being Jenkins, Mr Spry,Mr reviewed by the executive government. The Audit Kilgour, Mr Steggall, Mr Act, along with 399 other acts, will be reviewed by Lean, Mr (Teller) Stockdale, Mr those who are appointed by the government to Leigh,Mr Tehan,Mrs conduct audits and report back on the functions and Lupton,Mr Thompson, Mr parts of that act. The second point is that I have been McArthur,Mr Traynor,Mr given a copy of this opinion by Frank Costigan. In McCall,Ms Treasure, Mr his conclusion he says: McGill,Mrs Wade,Mrs McGrath, Mr W.D. Wells,Mr An examination of the Audit Act makes it clear: the Audit Act is not concerned with trade or Motion negatived. commerce,

Sitting suspended 1.10 p.m. until 2.04 p.m. the Auditor-General is not carrying on a business.

On the contrary the role of the Auditor-General is an essential part of the checks and balances of QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE government. He is provided with a fixed period of appointment and any suspension or removal from office involves the consideration and/ or determination Auditor-General: independence of both houses of Parliament.

Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I We agree with all of that. No-one is suggesting that refer the Premier to the independent legal advice the Auditor-General will be suspended or removed which has been received from Mr Frank from his office. No-one is saying, except the Costigan, QC. opposition and Mr Costigan, that there will be an application of the Trade Practices Act to this review. Mr Kennett interjected. It has nothing to do with it. I do not know what Mr Costigan's brief was. However, just as he has Mr BRUMBY - Is he not independent? Is he given his view, allow me to give mine, and I expect another one for the Premier to get into? mine will be a lot cheaper than Mr Costigan's: at no stage was this review ever set up based on anything The SPEAKER - Order! to do with the Trade Practices Act. Therefore, I do not believe Mr Costigan's opinion is relevant to the Mr BRUMBY - Mr Frank Costigan's reason the review was established. The opinion independent legal advice is that the review of the could be applied to the 399 other acts that will be Audit Act under the Kennett government's terms of reviewed. The review continues, the individuals reference is flawed beyond correction and should be who are conducting the review continue and, abandoned forthwith. Will the Premier now heed importantly, the terms of reference will not go. the words of yet another imminent Victorian and QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1608 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

The SPEAKER - Order! In the past I have asked Mr Speaker, you would aware that in that four-year honourable members to turn off mobile telephones period we have attracted more than $4.75 billion and pagers in this chamber out of courtesy to other worth of new investment, the equivalent of $900 for members. every Victorian. If you wanted further evidence of that new investment activity you would have to look Investment and employment only at Robert Bosch's recent decision to bring the operations of one its global subsidiaries to Ms McCALL (Frankston) - Will the Premier Melbourne; the Dominance Industries $100 million inform the house of recent developments in investment in Wangaratta, which I had the pleasure investment and employment in Victoria? of opening a couple of weeks ago; Fujitsu; Snowbrand; Meije Milk -literally dozens of firms Mr KENNETI (Premier) - I thank the .are coming to Victoria because of the pro-investment honourable member for her question and her climate. As I also indicated last month when I obvious interest in developing the opportunities in reported to the house, the latest study by the this state as they reflect on both employment and, Economist intelligence unit found that Victoria was obviously, investment. Over the past four years the most pro-business location in Australia. there has been a very real resurgence in investment and employment growth in Victoria. Ufting These things don't just happen. If journalists are investment and creating jobs has always been a writing articles and giving a commentary on major priority of this government. Victoria, or any other state or Australia, you would hope they would at least do the fundamental work Mr Speaker, as you would be aware, when we came to make sure their stories are accurate and, if they to office in 1992 we inherited a state that was in disagree, to provide the examples that will back up economic ruin. The unemployment rate in October their generalised claims. 1992 was 11.7 per cent, and it climbed to 12.8 per cent in August 1993. The labour market was very There is no doubt that we have a reputation for weak and the challenge to reduce unemployment as being able to achieve both new investment and the much as possible by increasing investment was a growth of existing industries; in manufactured target we set ourselves. exports we are leading the other states; and to make all that happen we have a very special working Since 1992 there have been significant improvements partnership with the private sector. in the unemployment rate, the level of employment and, particularly, the amount of investment in the Mr Baker - Yes, but where are the jobs? There state. In fact more than 149000 new jobs have been are not enough jobs. created in Victoria, a growth rate of more than 7.5 per cent. Mr KENNETI - The honourable member for Sunshine continues to interject after lunch. In today's Herald Sun a journalist, Mr Paul Gray, says in the conclusion to one of his articles that we Mr Baker - You're talking nonsense! are: The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable ... palpably failing to make an impact on the state's member for Sunshine is talking much too much. I fundamental problems of unemployment and loss of ask him to hold his tongue. industry. Honourable members interjecting. Unfortunately, the individual journalist either simply doesn't understand or hasn't been observing Mr KENNETT - Some 149000 new jobs have carefully what has been happening in both been created in a whole range of industries. I am employment, where, as I mentioned, 149 000 new pleased to say that those new jobs are not just in jobs have been created in this state since 1992, and metropolitan Melbourne; they are right throughout investment, the other side of the coin, where Victoria Victoria. On Friday I will make a further is experiencing the greatest level of private business announcement of another major new investment in investment growth in Australia, measured to date at Victoria that will employ approximately 100 to 120 more than 17 per cent. That is totally contrary to citizens in meaningful jobs. Mr Gray and the what Mr Gray quite incorrectly states in his article honourable member for Sunshine argue against the today. clear evidence that this state is in fact on the move, QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1609 that we are not only attracting industry but are the clause or clauses of the Competition Policy growing the industries we have, and we are creating Reform (Victoria) Act 1995 on which he bases his a great number of permanent jobs for people who review of the Audit Act and his review of the are desperately in need of work. Auditor-General, and, more importantly, the terms of reference. Premier, tell us about the clause or Auditor-General: independence clauses, tell us which one gives you the legal authority to conduct this examination. Mr BRUMBY

Honourable members interjecting. The situation is that international studies have indicated that there are savings of up to 20 per cent to be achieved through tendering. In the case of the Mr KENNElT - I don't know how much time City of Glen Eira, which is an outstanding example, I've got to try to explain to the Leader of the an m-house team won the tender for the provision of Opposition the reason why this inquiry has been set Home and Community Care programs. There has up. It found its origin in COAG and, it is for the been an improvement of between 65 per cent and same reason -- 150 per cent in the number of hours and the nature Honourable members interjecting. of the services provided through the four programs tendered for by that in-house team. I am sure no honourable member would wish to deprive the Mr KENNElT - It is for the same reason that we citizens o~ Glen Eira of the additional services they are conducting the review of 399 other acts, in the have receIved as a result of the tendering process. same way that New South Wales, South Australia, Western Australia, Queensland, the Northern Of the 78 councils in Victoria only 9 failed to achieve Territory and the Australian Capital Territory are all doing it. their 2? per cent targets for compulsory competitive tendermg. The 9 councils are named in the report and, of those, 6 failed by less than 2 per cent. That Mr Brumby - Mr Speaker, on the question of should be regarded as a good effort in achieving the relevance, the Premier was asked a very specific targets. Some three councils were significantly below question. the target and they will be given suitable counselling Honourable members interjecting. on how to catch up with the other councils that more than achieved their targets. Mr Brumby - You don't like the answer because The government has already announced a review of he can't answer the question! Mr Speaker, it was a compulsory competitive tendering which is being very specific question asking the Premier to identify QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1610 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 undertaken by Mr Martin Hinds and Mr Vern process is taking place. It will apply equally to each Robson. That review has already received more than act. 130 submissions. I am delighted to know the Leader of the Opposition and the opposition generally have Mr Bracks interjected. caught up on national competition policy because if councils are to meet their targets and requirements Mr KENNETI - The honourable member under national competition policy, tendering will be interjects that we are slipping and sliding. We have required and it will be necessary for us to lift the not simply shirked our responsibility as a targets. We have provided for that. The targets in government because the honourable member or the successive years will be 50 per cent and many Age believes this is an issue that is somewhat councils have already achieved that figure. I expect different from what it is today. As the Leader of the another report on the success of tendering and Opposition and most of his colleagues behind him particularly of compulsory competitive tendering. know, they will never end up in leadership positions if they always try to take the easy course. The Auditor-General: independence opposition has no ability to take on board its responsibility and act as a government in waiting. Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I The review is part of the normal process of refer the Premier to his first answer today when I government. It will apply to 400 acts of which the asked about the legal advice of Mr Frank Audit Act is one. Costigan, QC. The Premier said he agreed with Mr Costigan that the Audit Act is not concerned Aboriginal deaths in custody with trade and commerce and the Auditor-General is not carrying on a business. How does the Premier Mr ASHLEY (Bayswater) - Will the Minister justify his continued assertion that the audit review responsible for Aboriginal Affairs inform the house is based on national competition policy laws when it of her assessment of progress made in Victoria in is clear beyond all doubt that the laws are applied implementing the recommendations of the Royal only to the business activities of government Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody? agencies? Mrs HENDERSON (Minister responsible for Mr KENNETI (Premier) - The Leader of the Aboriginal Affairs) - The final report of the Royal Opposition is a slow learner. He is quite right, and Commission into AbOriginal Deaths in Custody was so is Mr Costigan; the Audit Act is not concerned released in May 1991. Included in that report were with trade and commerce and that is not why the some 339 recommendations for all governments to review is taking place. The competition policy that address. The problem concerns the every Parliament around Australia has signed up to, overrepresentation of Aboriginal people in custody. which is about competition review, asks every The main aim of the Royal Commission government to have a look at each of its acts to see recommendations was to reduce the number of whether there is any potential or factual restriction Aboriginal people coming into contact with the on competition in those acts that would allow a justice system, thus reducing the disproportionate monopoly. They are not involved in business but number of Aboriginal people dying in custody. involved in containing restrictive elements in the acts. In response to the final report of the royal commission the Victorian government agreed with Of all the acts laid out before us in the chamber we all other Australian governments to report annually have identified 400 of a restrictive nature, and they on the implementation of the recommendations. I must therefore be subjected to review by am pleased to say that today the fourth Victorian government. If at the end of that review the implementation report was tabled in the house. government of the day believes changes should be Although previous reports by the Victorian made to remove that restriction it will make those government have shown a reasonably mixed picture changes in legislation before Parliament in the of the success in addressing the problems I am normal way. pleased to say that the fourth implementation report is the first report in Victoria and also among other If the review panel decides the situation should states that shows a clear trend in decreasing remain and the government agrees with that, the Aboriginal imprisonment. government will ensure that exemption from the restriction in the act applies. That is the way the QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

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The 1995-96 implementation report illustrates that particularly the work done by the great number of significant progress has been made in Victoria in a volunteers on our justice panels. range of important matters. Since the 1994 report was tabled Victoria has had quite some achievement The SPEAKER - Order! I do not like and some success. We have been able to collectively, interrupting the minister, but she has now been across all government departments, reduce the going for over 5 minutes. I ask her to wind up her overrepresentation of adult Aboriginal prisoners in answer. custody from the ratio of 14 to 1 in June 1994 to 11 to 1 in June 1996. There is a further achievement Mrs HENDERSON - Thank you, Mr Speaker, in that success; we have had a further reduction of for your direction. This is a very important day. the overrepresentation of juvenile offenders in custody from 33 to 1 in June 1994 to 12 to 1 in June The SPEAKER - Order! Of course it is. 1996. These are substantial achievements against a background of an increasing national trend and MI5 HENDERSON - The report is important, against a background of an increasing Aboriginal and the volunteers in the Aboriginal community community in Victoria, and especially a growth in have made a great contribution to its success. the population of Aboriginal people under the age of 25. Competition policy: judicial system

However, despite these achievements there is still Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - much to be done in addressing the problems of Given the Premier's assertion in his last answer that Aboriginal disadvantage. We have done a great deal national competition policy applies to all acts of state to decrease the overrepresentation of Aboriginal Parliament, can the Premier inform the house people entering the criminal justice system and whether he intends applying the national certainly the Victorian government has an ongoing competition policy and code to Victoria's courts and commitment to implement the royal commission's tribunals and to the state Ombudsman. recommendations. We will actively engage in reviewing the process of implementation and Mr KENNETI (Premier) - I think the question monitoring outcomes. Certainly, this is a very was asked last week or the week before - and I important subject, which both houses -- thank the honourable member for Albert Park for rushing to the aid of the Leader of the Opposition Honourable members interjecting. this afternoon.

The SPEAKER - Order! The minister has now Honourable members interjecting. been going for 4 minutes. I ask her to wind up her answer. Mr KENNETI - Like all acts it was considered in light of the competition principles that have been Mrs HENDERSON - Over the next 12 months laid down by COAG. I think I am right in saying the government will seek to redevelop and monitor that it has been agreed by all Attorneys-General its reporting system. We want to put a greater focus throughout the country that it will not be applied to not only on Aboriginal people in the justice system the courts. but also on other areas of Aboriginal disadvantage in the areas of housing, welfare, education and Honourable members interjecting. employment. La Trobe University: language faculties I am delighted to say that the Victorian government and I, as the responsible minister, will take part in Mr ANDRIGHEITO (Narracan) - I refer the the national summit planned for May next year, Minister for Tertiary Education and Training to which will look into the implementation of the royal media reports that La Trobe University will be commission's findings. It is a great opportunity for forced to stop teaching Italian. Will the minister the government to promote the very good and inform the house of the steps the government has successful things that have been done in this area of taken to ensure that the Italian language will the Justice portfolio. continue to be taught at La Trobe University?

We should not go past acknowledging the Mr HONEYWOOD (Minister for Tertiary leadership shown by the Aboriginal community, Education and Training) - I thank the honourable EDUCATION (STANDARDS COUNCIL) BILL

1612 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 member for Narracan for his obvious interest as an consequential amendments to the Teaching Service Act Italian-Australian in this very important question. 1981 and for other purposes. Honourable members will be aware that entrenched high levels of unemployment around the globe make Mr MILDENHALL (Footscray) - I ask for a it more important than ever that governments description of the contents of the bill. encourage the teaching of specialised skills that are portable within national boundaries and Mr GUDE (Minister for Education) (By leave)­ internationally. There can be no better example of The bill will be allowed to lie over, as I have already that than the teaching of foreign languages. The indicated to the honourable member. Briefly, the bill Victorian government is very proud to lead will increase the number of people involved in the Australia in the teaching of foreign languages. Some work of the standards council. It also deals with the 43 languages are now being taught at the VCE level. broader roles of the teaching profession, not only in government schools but in non-government schools. Having said that, it is important that that continues People from within the non-government sector will into the tertiary education sector. The teaching of the be invited to participate in the work of the teaching Italian language is of great importance when one council. considers the contribution that our very large and significant Italian community has made to the Motion agreed to. building of this nation and, especially, the state of Victoria. Given the difficult commonwealth budget Read first time. situation and the higher education funding package which is going through the Senate at the moment, EDUCATION (TRESPASS) BILL many of our universities are facing difficult choices in designing new courses and reviewing existing Introduction and first reading ones. La Trobe University is faced with a difficult situation of declining enrolments in the Italian Mr GUDE (Minister for Education) introduced a language course. bill to amend the Education Act 1958 with respect to trespassing on state schools and for other I am pleased to inform the house today that as a purposes. result of meetings I have had with the vice-chancellor, Mr Michael Osborne, and as a result Read first time. of the support I have received from this parliament's three MPs with Italian backgrounds - the member FISHERIES (FURTHER AMENDMENT) for Narracan, the member for Coburg and a member BILL for Templestowe Province in another place, the Honourable Carlo Furletti - with the cooperation of Introduction and first reading the university the teaching of this important course has been saved for the future. Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Agriculture and Resources) introduced a bill to amend the Fisheries Honourable members interjecting. Act 1995 and for other purposes.

Mr HONEYWOOD - Not only will the Read first time. 174 students currently studying Italian at La Trobe University be able to continue, but new enrolments EVIDENCE (AUDIO VISUAL AND will be taken as of next year. AUDIO LINKING) BILL

EDUCATION (STANDARDS COUNCIL) Introduction and first reading BILL Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) introduced a bill to Introduction and first reading amend the Evidence Act 1958, the Supreme Court Act 1986, the County Court Act 1958, the Mr GUDE (Minister for Education) - I move: Magistrates' Court Act 1989 and the Children and Young Persons Act 1989 with respect to appearance That I have leave to bring in a bill to amend the before, or the giving of evidence or making of Education Act 1958 to make further provision for the submissions to, courts by audiovisual or audio Standards Council of the Teaching Profession, to make links and for other purposes. MAGISTRATES' COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1613

Read first time. she has been practising in Werribee for some time. Having been given information about the bill she MAGISTRATES' COURT was unable to tell me with any certainty what (AMENDMENT) BILL impact it will have on any group of individuals. Her advice to me was that it is so complex and far MI5 WADE (Attorney-General) - By leave, I reaching that the implications will be broad and yet move: very different for each individual affected by the changes. That it be an instruction to the committee that they have power to consider amendments to the It was, therefore, with some concern that I spoke Magistrates' Court (Amendment) Bill to deem - with four constituents. The first constituent was (a) any extension of time, payment by instalments or Mr Johann Stratfelder of Werribee, who is currently variation of instalment arrangement made before on Workcover benefits suffering repetitive strain 14 November 1996 by a person authorised to execute a injury. He is 60 and has been engaged in warrant to arrest under section 62 of the Sentencing Act production-type work for almost 27 years. He is 1991 or a warrant to seize property issued under unlikely to re-enter the work force. His solicitor was section 66 of that act, to be an order referred to in unable to advise him of the implications of the section 55(a), (b), or (c) of that act; (b) certain warrants changes proposed in this bill and advised him to issued under, or in accordance with, an order made contact his local member and members of the Liberal under sections 62 or 66 of that act to have been lawfully and National parties to try to find out what the executed; and (c) warrant costs paid before the changes would mean for him. Johann and I have execution of warrants referred to in paragraph (b), to been talking about this matter for only a few days, have been lawfully demanded and recovered. but he has been told that he will now be re-assessed every three to six months. Motion agreed to. Mr Stratfelder is terribly concerned about his future. ACCIDENT COMPENSATION He is using the lump sum payment he received to (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL payoff his mortgage, but he has been advised that there is some doubt about whether he can keep the Second reading lump sum payment. He is most concerned that he will be unable to meet his mortgage repayments if Debate resumed from 3 December; motion of he receives the $5000 minimum and then instalments Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer); and His life and that of his dependant family has been Mr MICALLEF's amendment: thrown into unacceptable chaos and confusion as a result of this hasty, ill-considered and vicious That all the words after 'that' be omitted with the view legislation that concentrates on a financial bottom of inserting in place thereof the words 'this house line rather than on caring for vulnerable people. refuses to read this bill a second time until adequate consultation with interest groups and affected parties Darren Malone is a constituent who has been on have assessed - (a) the implications of the proposed Workcover for four years due to a knee injury he amendments that affect compensation entitlements to sustained as a labourer. He has had several knee seriously injured workers; and (b) the impact of serial reconstructions but will be unable to resume his payments in relation to taxation and social security trade as a bricklayer. It is likely that for the entitlements.' remainder of his life he will have to walk with the aid of a stick. He is concerned that the lump sum he Ms GILLETT (Werribee) - Last night, I referred has received will have to be repaid, but he has to some of my recent experiences with a number of already invested that money in his home. Darren has constituents who have been deeply concerned about a wife and a young family. His wife is now working the potential impact of this legislation upon them. In while Darren stays at home to look after their order to ensure that I am as well informed as children. I fear the government has not considered pOSSible, I have spoken to a number of legal the degree of uncertainty the legislation will create practitioners in Werribee. On Monday I happened to and the effect it will have on injured workers. The be visiting the lawyer who has been preparing my government is concerned only about the financial will, and I took the opportunity of talking to her bottom line. about this matter. Her advice was alarming. She is a lawyer of very good repute and of some experience; ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

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Lorraine Rogers of Hoppers Crossing is concerned, down its provisions, or how much obfuscation it as are most of the wives of men who have been uses, it remains an evil piece of legislation. It is evil injured at work, about her husband, Neil, who is because it does not even pretend to pass minimum receiving Workcover benefits for stress and standards of things like honesty. This legislation repetitive strain injury sustained when he was a pretends to be about using the best available medical teacher in a TAFE college. Neil reaches the 30 per methods to exclude psychological or psychiatric cent impairment level only because of the stress considerations. That is expressly stated in the component involved in his claim as the physical minister's second-reading speech. He said that the injury to his hand comprises only 9 per cent of his second significant change under this bill is: claim. If the stress-related injury is removed retrospectively, as is proposed by this legislation, .. to ensure that the assessment of impainnent for the Neil's level of disability will be reassessed purposes of determining whether a serious injury exists downward, and he and his family have no idea of is conducted in accordance with the best medical how that will impact on their lives. methods as they evolve and excludes any consequential or secondary psychological or psychiatric injuries, Another constituent, Lynette Coveyduck, was hit by impairments or symptoms. a car while crossing the road after she had left work. She has been receiving Workcover payments since There was a pretence that this is somehow about the 1992. She is permanently injured and is constantly best available medical methods as they evolve. The taking pain killers. She is unfit to return to work. She document on which the government based this is concerned that her future physiotherapy and dishonest statement is the second edition of Guides to medical bills will not be covered because of the the Evaluation of Permanent Impairment, which was proposed amendments to the Workcover legislation. published by the American Medical Association and Her entitlements have been cut back to 60 per cent. consists of 12 chapters. The government is quite She did not receive a lump sum payment because of happy to take the first 11 chapters as representing changes to the system at that time. Lynette has fallen the best available medical advice. However, through the gap once, and she is deeply concerned chapter 12 deals with mental and behavioural that she will fall through another one to be attacked disorders and the government chucks it out. When not once but twice by this government. the government claims best available medical methods it uses the second edition of this It is an appalling state of affairs when this publication, even though the American Medical government rushes with haste and malice - and Association is working with the fourth edition. This frighteningly myopic vision - to change a system publication has already been revised twice from the that is supposed to look after the most vulnerable edition this government wishes to use. people in the community because it is concerned only about the financial bottom line and its capacity Why hasn't the government gone for the fourth to be re-elected. This government continues with the edition if it wants the best available medical advice? mistaken belief that Victorians think it is marvellous Possibly because the amendments made between the because it is attending to the financial bottom line. It second and fourth editions actually recognise some fails to understand that Victorians know that we live of the types of injuries the government does not like in a society and not just an economy. This and changes the tests for assessing injuries for government has no capacity to comprehend that impairment purposes in a way the government does some Victorians need to be cared for within a system not like. So the government does not go to the best that has not just a financially healthy bottom line but available medical advice. a cultural, moral and ethical framework. This book - the government's bible - includes This government has constantly failed the Victorian psychological considerations. Chapter 12 deals with people. The government should be distressed about this subject and says at page 219: the fact that it has yet again failed the most vulnerable in the community. The government has Obviously, the analogy between the loss of a limb and failed the sick, the children and the injured. The the loss of capability resulting from a mental disorder government stands condemned. has its limitations. Nonetheless, it is important to recognise that residual impairment from a mental Mr LONEY (Geelong North) - This is an evil disorder may be just as real and severe as impairment piece of legislation. It does not matter how the resulting from a physical disorder or injury. The link government tries to dress it up, how it tries to play between motivation and recovery may need ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1615

strengthening in individuals impaired whether by feel devalued in their own society. They are the real physical or mental illnesses, and this is a task for battlers of our society, and they are the people who rehabilitation psychiatry. are being rejected and thrown away by this government. It goes on to say that in going back to the job and so on those sorts of things should be assessed and That is the evil intent of this legislation. It is no more provided for. Of course, that is not what this than a shabby attack on workers and it needs to be government wants. clearly exposed as such. One could have some slight hope that the government did not know what it was It is my understanding that the Australian Medical doing when it introduced the bill and that it was not Association is not in agreement with this change. really an attack on workers. However, we have to Before the conclusion of this debate I wonder if the put it into perspective. This is the government that minister will be prepared to table the advice he also extensively watered down the provisions of the received from the AMA on this issue. That would be Occupational Health and Safety Act to such a degree a welcome addition to the debate. that it allowed workplaces to be far less safe than previously. These two things in conjunction show The bill is even more evil because it inflicts further the evil intent of this government in relation to pain and trauma on those already suffering. The workers. retrospectivity clauses will inflict considerable harm and suffering on people who are already suffering This legislation deserves vigorous condemnation from workplace injuries. A number of people in my from every section of our community. It should constituency have problems of this sort. Take the rightly be thrown out of this place. I am pleased that case of Mr A. He is in his mid-30s. Twelve months the opposition will be opposing this legislation at ago he was involved in an industrial accident. While every point of its passage. This legislation is about engaged in his task he was covered with oil attacking people who are vulnerable and have discharged from a reactor. The heated oil caused already suffered; they are already in pain and are significant bums to his hands, legs, face, arms, back suffering trauma. It is about people who feel they and neck and left him with serious scarring. After might be entitled to a little more respect from their being covered with the hot oil he fell from the ladder government. that provided his means of exit, leaving him with a compression fracture of the lumbar area of the spine. This government simply does not respect people who are vulnerable and powerless. Rather, it Under section 93B of the Accident Compensation exploits them and drives them further into the Act there is a whole person impairment of 20 per ground. That is what this legislation is about. As I cent as a consequence of that injury. The bums were said at the outset, this is an evil piece of legislation judged to be over 40 per cent of his body and and no member of this place should give it any affected his hands, arms, face and legs. There is a support in the belief that he or she is acting morally. nominal whole person assessment but the guidelines as they stand do not establish severe bums. His Mr HULLS (Niddrie) - As I said during the psychological impairment as a result of these horrific debate on the Victims of Crime Assistance Bill, a bums was assessed in order to bring him to the society is judged on how it treats its most vulnerable whole person category. members. I refer to some incidents that have occurred over the past couple of weeks during Mr A is currently receiving $423 gross a week - not debate on the Victims of Crime Assistance Bill and very much, one would suggest. Should the on the bill currently before the house. While amendments come into force there is very little everyone knows that Labor Party members have doubt that he would be reassessed and his their troubles from time to time and might argue compensation would be reduced to 70 per cent of his internally over a number of issues, we are all proud pre-injury average gross weekly earnings. The intent to be members of the Labor Party. We need no of this bill is to get at people in that sort of situation. further reminder of why we are members of the This government and the federal government are of Labor Party than the two bills to which I have the same colour and they talk about representing referred. battlers. No-one has to battle harder than people suffering from workplace injuries who cannot return Members of the Labor Party have always maintained to work. They have the psychological trauma of the that society is judged on how it treats its most injury and social trauma of being unemployed; they vulnerable victims. Two weeks ago the concept of ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

1616 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 compensating victims of crime for pain and TAC was roped into the Workcover amendments. suffering was turfed out the window by this Either Mr MacKenzie from the TAC knew at the government, and this bill does exactly the same time that legislation was on the drawing board, in thing - that is, compensation for psychological pain which case he misled people at the meeting, or he and suffering, which has been part of the workers was kept in the dark about the matter. It would be compensation scheme for many years, is about to be an absolute outrage if the government has tossed out of the window. That shows the unilaterally decided to introduce such legislation philosophical divide between members on either without consulting the TAC. side of the house. The workers of this state are the big losers as a result The bill before the house is an admission by this of this retrospective legislation. Honourable government of its abysmal failure; it is an admission members should consider the history of this that it has in the past mismanaged and bungled the legislation and where it all went wrong. On Workcover system. The government, the Victorian achieving government in 1992 the Kennett Workcover AuthOrity and the Transport Accident government decided it would reduce payments to Commission will not have to pay as a result of that injured workers and that they were entitled to only bungling and mismanagement; the workers will the smallest compensation. As a result, draconian have to foot the bill. Not only has this government and callous legislation was introduced forced the TAC to accept amendments which result retrospectively. Furthermore, a decision was taken in the Workcover debacle retrospectively attacking to sack 11 judges of the Accident Compensation victims of transport accidents, but it has no doubt Tribunal. That was unprecedented, and there was an been party to a media briefing paper on the enormous amount of media coverage at the time. amendments to the workcover legislation issued by the authority. The judges were sacked because their decisions about the compensation workers should receive did It just so happens that the opposition has been able not adhere to what the government thought was to get a copy of the briefing paper, which refers to appropriate. As a result, the government put the removal of secondary psychological factors. That pressure on the judges and ultimately sacked them. is the most abhorrent part of the legislation because Another reason the judges were sacked was to put it denies people who have been injured at work pressure on other members of the judiciary dealing appropriate compensation for psychological damage with workers compensation claims. It sent a message they may have incurred as a result of their injuries. to them that if they continued to pay compensation The briefing says the legislation is not retrospective, the government did not believe was appropriate and it emphasises that pOint. The Victorian they, too, would face the axe. Thank goodness the Workcover Authority attempted to convince judiciary prides itself on its independence, despite members of the media and the public that the what has happened in the past in this state, Workcover legislation was not retrospective. particularly with regard to the Attorney-General. The judges of the County Court would not kowtow That flies in the face of the recent report presented to to the government and were still prepared to assess this Parliament by the Scrutiny of Acts and workers' injuries and the compensation they were Regulations Committee, which makes it crystal clear entitled to on their merits. They were more than that the measure is retrospective legislation. Not happy to ensure that the psychological impairment only that, the committee was critical of the became part of the overall compensation package for government for introducing retrospective legislation workers. The government knows it cannot now sack and expressed grave concerns about its retrospective a whole bunch of County Court judges or other nature. The authority has perpetrated a con job in members of the judiciary so it has decided to this matter. introduce retrospective legislation.

The TAC has also perpetrated a con job. I That is why this legislation has come about. The understand a meeting took place on 25 October at independent organisations that spoke out at the time which Mr James MacKenzie from the TAC and a the Accident Compensation Tribunal judges were number of barristers from law firms that do a lot of sacked included the Law Institute of Victoria, the TAC work were present. Mr MacKenzie advised the Victorian Bar Council and their equivalents in every meeting that he envisaged no legislative changes state of Australia; Supreme Court judges of this state were on the drawing board to deal with the problem and other states; the Law Council of Australia; the of psychiatric impairment. A short time later the International Commission of Jurists; and even the ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1617 judges of the Cowt of Geneva. They said it was an amongst the most vulnerable members of our outrage that this government would take the axe to community - injured workers. Accident Compensation Tribunal judges. Nearly every newspaper in this state also said that that If we want to consider ourselves a civilised society, action set an ugly precedent in Victoria. As I said, we have to look after the less well off and the most the judges were sacked because they were not vulnerable. We cannot continue to toe the line of prepared to compromise their independence. As we John Hewson, who said in 1993, I think, that if we as know, those judges took appropriate action against a society reach down to assist the most vulnerable the state government, and the action was due to people in our society, all we will do is drag the rest come on for hearing on 2 December this year. That of society down to that level. That is what this would have been a showpiece for the Victorian legislation is about. We cannot as a civilised society judiciary because the court case would decide one continue to take that line. We have to look after our way or another how important an independent workers just as we have to look after the victims of judiciary was. That court case has been settled only crimes. That is why the reasoned amendment moved in the last couple of days and there have been all by the honourable member for Springvale must be sorts of reports about it, one of which was that it supported by every member of this house who has a involved a $12 million settlement. fair dinkum view about protecting workers in Victoria. The government settled this matter because it was not prepared to allow it to go to a full hearing. It Mr COLE (Melbourne) - I support the reasoned knew that certain evidence would have to be given amendment and totally oppose this pernicious bill. at the hearing and certain people would be As has been pointed out, it is one of the most evil subpoenaed to give evidence, including the measures that has been brought into this Parliament Attorney-General and somebody to whom I have in my eight years as a member. My great-uncle Alf regularly referred in this house as the real lost his left arm in World War I just before the Attorney-General, Mr Greg Craven. They would armistice. He was a horse-breaker by trade, and have been subpoenaed to give evidence before an because he had lost his left arm he was not entitled independent cowt. If we have learnt one thing in the to receive a pension and was required to work. time we have been in opposition it is that this Under this bill exactly the same thing would have government will do everything it can to avoid being happened, however ridiculous that is. Great-uncle scrutinised by an independent authority, tribunal, Alf would also not have been eligible for costs for cowt or institution. It has continually refused to call psychological damage brought about by his being in inquiries into the most serious of matters, whether it the war. The reason for that was that because so be KNF, the Director of Public Prosecutions or even many men came back from the war having lost the current issue before the people of Victoria, the limbs, the government of the day did not believe it Auditor-General. The government has continually could provide appropriate pensions for them, no refused to have its actions independently scrutinised. matter how much they deserved them or were entitled to them and no matter how much they had This case was creeping up on the government. It was lost, because they could not resume their previous getting close to a hearing, so the Attorney-General occupations. decided it was not worth the risk of her having to be cross-examined on oath, unlike the situation in this One of the saddest things about this bill is that not place, about her motives for the sacking of the ACT only does it repeat the terrible things that were done judges, and she decided the matter should be settled. to people in the past when they suffered injuries at It is estimated that that legal battle has cost work or at war, but we are going one step further Victorians at least $4 million. That does not include and saying that, although we accept that there is the cost of transferring the jurisdiction of Workcover such a thing as psychological and psychiatric injury, to the Magistrates Court and the County Court. This if it relates to a physical injury we will not pay for it. was a $4 million bungle that the Attorney-General of That is not because the government does not this state and Mr Greg Craven have imposed upon recognise that it occurs; it is saying that it will not Victorians. Victorians generally have suffered as a pay for it. What right has any government to tell an result of this bungle. Workers in particular have had injured worker that it recognises a physical injury to bear the brunt of the sacking of the Accident but will not recognise the mental injury? Compensation Tribunal judges and, more importantly, this retrospective legislation because, as The bill has no redeeming features whatsoever. No I said, it takes away the rights of those who are member of the government can walk around with ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

1618 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 his or her head held high having supported it. The matter what the psychological or psychiatric impact bill sets back not only the treatment of workers in you will not be compensated. this state but also the cause and treatment of the mentally ill as no other action has done in my time Nobody in this house knows more than I about the in Parliament. It says that we are not prepared to difficulties relating to the diagnosis of mental illness accept the reality of a mental illness or the fact that it and the treatment of psychiatric illness. It is very can be caused by a physical injury, and if it is, we are difficult to diagnose - there is no doubt about that. not prepared to pay for it. The simple reason for that There are broad ranges of psychological and is the overwhelming prejudice against these psychiatric illnesses. The psychological impact of illnesses. Once upon a time the conservatives called losing a limb is not a grey area. It is indisputable and a back injury Neapolitan back. They did not want to beyond doubt that a person will have a psychiatric accept it. Now they will not accept these things or psychological problem to overcome following called psychological and psychiatric illnesses and such an experience. have set about waging a devious campaign against people who suffer these types of injuries. For this government to say, 'We are not prepared to let the Workcover system be unfunded by Proposed section 91(2) inserted by clause 9 says that something like $300 million' shows that the bean a person who receives a physical injury cannot claim counters, or in this case the Treasurer, AIan psychological and psychiatric damage related to the 5tockdale - with his multi-functional media injury. That is not because the injury is not real. The portfolio, which really is just about using his Treasurer has pointed out in the magnanimous way abacus - has come to the conclusion that we can't that we have come to expect of him that a teller in a afford to even run the risk of these illnesses being bank who has a gun pointed at him can claim recognised. I consider it an affront not only to me, compensation for psychological damage. someone who suffers badly from one of these illness Unfortunately, however, if the bank robber shoots every day of his life, but to others. I would like to the teller he cannot make a claim. However, if the think that workers out in the community have a bank robber blows a male teller's genitals off and he right to have their illnesses reCOgnised. recovers, the teller cannot claim psychiatric damage even though he may never be able to have sex again. I have seen some of the most shocking cases of So the government is effectively saying: you cannot debilitation and the most severe forms of depression get over the 30 per cent line even though you've lost come over people. At least 10 police officers who are your balls! friends of mine have suffered depression that is almost untreatable because it is so bad. It has If this is not the most evil, perniciOUS and disgusting happened not only because of the armed robberies piece of legislation ever introduced in this house, they might have witnessed or otherwise been I don't know what is. It again shows the concerned about or the shots that were or were not government's lack of care for people, particularly the fired but also simply because of the stress of the job. workers. It is not what the Treasurer would get, I might add, because if he were to walk out of here What the government is saying now is, 'We are not and someone with a shotgun blew off his testicles, going to recognise that problem. If you have a he would be okay. He could claim psychiatric physical injury, if you go in and say, "I can no longer damage; he could get out of Parliament; he would perform the task", if you can prove over 30 per cent get his superannuation; and he would be covered by disability - which is extremely difficult in the case the superannuation scheme for the mental illness he of depression, mania or anxiety - you may be might suffer as a result of losing his testicles. recognised. But if it arises out of some other factor, such as an assault on the job or a shooting, we are What have we come to in this state? Where are we, npt going to fund it'. that something as repugnant as this could be introduced, that a person could lose his testicles I cannot understand the logic of that. It is so immoral through a workplace injury and yet be unable to that it is unbelievable. What is most sad about it - claim for psychiatric damage? Is that what this I think some would say this in kindness to him - is Parliament is saying? Is that what this Treasurer is that the Treasurer believes it to be the case. That is saying? Now we know exactly where this what is so sad about members of this government: government is coming from. Under this government they actually believe their own bulldust! People will there is no longer any hope for a worker. You can be out there suffering en masse because government lose your leg or any other part of your body but no members believe it; they believe there is no need to ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1619 have the premiums paying for somebody who has her genitals in a work-based accident but not be suffered an injury and psychological damage, for considered sufficiently injured to justify a claim for somebody who might have fallen on a building site psychological or psychiatric damage. and damaged his or her back. No longer do we say, 'It might be Neapolitan back. We have to accept When it has come to that pOint, it is time to say there is a back injury, but you cannot claim for the 'Enough is enough'. The Treasurer and the rest of stress or the psychological impact of never being them have to have a look at themselves. The Liberal able to work on a building site or have any other and National parties, which put business and labourer's job again', and many of them are not everything else before people, have to change or suited to any other work. That's what the they have to go. The latter will be the case, I hope. government is saying. It is disgusting that it has come to this point. Mr LIM (Clayton) - I join other honourable members on this side of the house to condemn the As I said, I know the Treasurer believes it to be true. Accident Compensation (Further Amendment) Bill Members of the government believe so many of the in its current form and support the reasoned things they say to be true. They believe that out amendment moved by the honourable member for there is a wealth of employment. Well, there isn't. Springvale. They believe that people are faking psychological damage after injury. Well, they're not. It is real. The It is beyond doubt that if this bill is enacted without prejudice against those with mental illnesses has amendment it will unjustly deprive many injured become apparent yet again and government workers and transport accident victims of fair members stand condemned for it. compensation for their injuries. There are numerous very disturbing aspects of the bill that other As the honourable member for Niddrie pointed out, honourable members have covered extensively and members of the opposition have had a few divisions I shall not repeat those arguments. among themselves in the past, but we will not be divided on something like this. We are at one in Some disturbing aspects of the bill have created opposition to the government's appalling treatment tension in the affected sections of our community. of workers and of the community in general, The redefinition of serious illness, the relevance of including the victims of crime, and to the disgusting the psychological component of an injury, the way this government is prepared to say to people retrospectivity of the bill, the non-payment of lump who may have been raped or shot, 'We will no sum compensation for amounts over $5000 - just to longer recognise a mental illness; we will not accept name a few - all those factors have angered many it'. When the Minister for Health parades around in members of the community. The manifestation of support of people who suffer mental illnesses we the rally in front of Parliament House yesterday is a will wave a copy of the victims of crime legislation case in point. The honourable member for and this legislation in front of him and say, 'Not Springvale quoted many of the remarks of the only do you speak with a forked tongue, Minister; unfortunate people who have to suffer unjustly and you are an absolute hypocrite'. who now, when the proposed legislation is put in place, will suffer a lot more. In conclusion, it is a very sad and bleak day for the state of Victoria when this bill has been introduced; Perhaps the doubts expressed by members on this it is a sad and sorry day for the workers in the state; side of Parliament on behalf of the community pale and it is a sad day for the mentally ill who have into insignificance when you compare them with suffered a psychological impact as a result of injury what the joint parliamentary Scrutiny of Acts and at work. The bill again highlights the inability of this Regulations Committee had to say. Its report is the government to act in a manner that is not prejudicial subject of an article in this morning's Age, which to those in greatest need. The government's says a parliamentary committee for the scrutiny of discrimination against the mentally ill is second to acts and regulations has a whole range of concerns none in any state in this country. I earnestly request about the bill, states: the Minister for Police and Emergency Services, who is representing the Treasurer, who is not here, to ask The committee also expressed its 'grave concern' that the Treasurer to reconsider and review what he is the removal of lurnp-surn payments could diminish the doing to people - that is, to reconsider and review social security entitlements [of injured workers]. 'There the principle that is being established in our state is a potential loss of benefit to the recipient in terms of now, that a person, male or female, could lose his or the immediacy of the benefit payable'. ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

1620 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

The committee also expressed other areas of processes he has to deal with, that does not alleviate concern. For instance for: his concern about the future.

... those persons dependent upon a detennination of The bill is a prime example of how the government 30 per cent pursuant to the table of maims assessment, offers no protection to the people of this state. The the amendments may represent a diminution in rights '" government does not protect small business despite the fact that it is on record as saying that is a major We must look at the bill from the perspective of the priority. When it gets down to tintacks the government's slash-and-bum policy. It has deprived government consistently fails to deliver on its something like 50 000 workers of jobs, sacked promises to small business. One of the major approximately 8000 teachers and now has come up concerns in my electorate is from small business with this horrible bill that will affect people who involved with Workcover and accident suffer injury at or when travelling to work because compensation. Small business believes it is not they will be victimised. It is a question of humanity adequately protected. and allowing victims to survive with dignity and to carry on with their lives. The bill does not ensure that small business is protected; in fact, it puts it at more risk. It does The honourable member for Springvale quoted nothing for people who are the victims of accidents. examples of people who have to resort to the The honourable members for Melboume and Salvation Army and other welfare agencies for their Oayton outlined their grave concerns and I share livelihoods. The government has much to answer for them. The bill should be withdrawn. Along with and it should ask deep down whether this is the way other opposition members, I oppose the bill and welfare and compensation is to be handed out to the support the reasoned amendment. community. Ms CAMPBELL (Pascoe Vale) - The key My other main concern is the complete absence of principle behind a proper compensation system is consultation. The rushing of this bill through for injured workers to receive adequate incomes and Parliament is outrageous. I am concerned for rehabilitation. In respect of both my electorate and workers from non-English-speaking backgrounds portfolio responsibility the key component the bill and the rest of the community which is struggling to does not address is family wellbeing associated with come to grips with the complexity of the bill, let adequate compensation and empathy with injured alone trying to renegotiate its clauses. If the workers. The bill does not uphold those principles. government is sincere when it talks about looking after the people of Victoria it should not allow the A key requirement for family stability and wellbeing bill to pass without proper and meaningful is reliability in the workplace with long-term consultation. employment and income support. When a worker is injured obviously the long-term viability of his or In conclusion, I commend other members on this her job is severely threatened and in some cases side who have eloquently and forcefully made totally removed. Accident compensation is essential contributions to the debate. I join them in for families to survive and for the dignity of injured condemning the bill and supporting the reasoned workers. amendment moved by the honourable member for Springvale. My office has received a number of calls both from legal people involved in cases and from constituents. Mr LANGDON (Ivanhoe) - I support the One asked that his case be reported to the house. opposition's reasoned amendment and oppose the Too often when governments introduce bills they do bill. The bill does not provide adequate support, not take account of the people affected. In this case income or rehabilitation for injured workers. I refer the resident lives in Boundary Road, Pascoe Vale. He to concerns raised by a constituent who visited me says in his letter to me: as well as making many phone calls. His name is Laurie Bames and he suffered a knee injury at work I am truly disappOinted and shocked at these changes. I on 5 June 1995. He is still receiving medical believe that they take away injured workers' rights to treatment and waiting for appointments for adequate compensation. assessment of his injury. He approached me because the bill could put the process in jeopardy. Although He went on to mention how the new laws affected my office has offered to assist him with any him personally. He also was good enough to ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1621 mention that there were hundreds of other workers presume it will be, his compensation benefits will be who would be affected, along with their families. cut. He told me money is the source of the stress in When he described the scenario to me, I thought it his family life at the moment. He has already cut his was a truly generous gesture on his behalf. He asked home loan. He cannot cut it any further, because if that not only his case but the cases of many like him he does he will be in danger of his losing his house. be raised in the house. The letter continues: He is prepared to cope with having no social life, but he wants to keep a roof over his family's head. The These new laws affect me personally ... The bill should be defeated, but in typical government psychological consequences of my injury have almost fashion it will be passed. destroyed my family. My wife and I had to seek help just to keep our family together. Our children have had It is worth noting that not a single government to see a side of us which, if the injury had not occurred, speaker has defended the bill. If it is so fantastic, you would never have existed. My own family has had to would think at least one government member would endure loss of income due to my injury. have the guts to get up and speak. In fact, the benches opposite are totally empty. I support the After I received the letter I rang the gentleman amendment moved by the honourable member for concerned. 1 asked him what I thought were fairly Springvale. This house should refuse to read the bill rudimentary questions, such as: 'Tell me a little a second time until there has been adequate about what you did before you had your injury?'. consultation with interest groups and affected He was incredulous. He said, 'What do you think I parties to assess both the implications of the did? 1 led a normal life. What does a normal man do amendments that affect compensation entitlements in a normal life? I went to work, I looked after the to seriously injured workers and the impact of serial home, I played sport with my children, I payments on taxation and social security participated in their sporting activities, and my wife entitlements. and 1 had a social life'. Understandably, he wondered why 1 asked that question! On behalf of the gentleman from my electorate whom I have mentioned and on behalf of the Then 1 asked, 'Can you describe what you do now?' families in my electorate who will be grossly and He said, 'Nothing', and then stopped. 1 expected him adversely affected by the bill, 1 believe the house to go on. 'What do you mean?' He said, 'I can't do should support the amendment moved by the anything. 1 do nothing'. I asked, 'Surely you must be honourable member for Springvale. able to do something?' He said, 'I'm training to adapt myself to my new life. I have spent time in Mr BAKER (Sunshine) - I am delighted to be counselling. We try to have some social life, able to make a contribution to the debate. I thank the although as you would understand it is difficult Treasurer for the grace he has shown in allowing me when the money is very limited'. Then he said, this brief amount of time. I point out to government 'They are treating us like criminals'. I said, 'I'm not members that a good defence of the way in which treating you like a criminal'. He said, 'I don't mean the legislation has been framed would involve you, 1 mean the other politicians'. He was suggesting taking up the cry of the British workers last century the government was treating him like a criminal. who marched to establish the first accident compensation scheme in that country. Their cry was He then described the stress his family was that the cost of the product should bear the blood of enduring. This man had been a clothing cutter. He the worker. But of course we are much more had a work accident, as a result of which he civilised these days! Nevertheless, that is still the completely snapped his right shoulder tendons. That principle that underlies workers compensation and meant extra pressure was put on his left shoulder, the responsibility of employers to be liable for the which he is now having trouble with. He tried to consequences of poor safety practice or just plain carry on for nine months after this accident. It was bad luck in the workplace. only after his own doctor rang his work and told the person in charge that he was not to go in because he Since those days, various legal and governmental had to rest the shoulder that he stopped going. decisions have extended compensation coverage. As society has become more sophisticated, workers Because of the limited time available to me, 1 will try compensation has been extended to cover heart to summarise my concerns and those of my disease and hearing difficulties - or presbyacusis as constituents. The bill has important effects for the it is known technically - as well as muscle spasm man 1 have just described. If the bill is passed, and I injuries and respiratory ailments that are clearly and ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

1622 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 in some cases not so clearly related to occupations or self-esteem. She told me that it will be absolutely the to particular workplaces. last straw if this legislation does not recognise the pain, suffering and hurt she has sustained. As the honourable member for Melbourne has mentioned, as a result of further changes in recent The second case involves a Greek man who was years compensation has been extended to cover the injured some years ago, an injury which led to the psychological and mental trauma that comes either breakdown of his family life and the family circle. together with or as a consequence of workplace He will be in significant pain for the remainder of accidents of varying kinds, particularly those that his life. The heartless nature of this legislation and are serious. the move to lower the level of compensation and apply it retrospectively are shameful. I ask the I am not just making this contribution because I once Treasurer and members of the government benches played a modest role in the design and promotion of to look in the mirror and have another think about the original Workcare scheme and the transport this legislation. accident scheme that followed it, as well as the principles that were embodied in those schemes. Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I thank However, the house will recall that those principles members for their contributions to this debate. It is strongly favoured income maintenance. As the hardly surprising that the bill has divided the parties honourable member for Pascoe Vale so lucidly and along the lines manifested in this debate. eloquently outlined, that is a very important notion. So, too, is the notion of residual lump sum Ms Campbell interjected. payments. For the reasons the honourable member defined so clearly, those payments in some senses Mr STOCKDALE - The government has made represent a ruling off of the book and a recognition it clear to the opposition that in view of the advice of the consequences, both immediate and long term, that a large number of opposition members wanted that particular accidents have, not just for people to speak on this bill government members who are injured but also for their families. deliberately refrained from participating in this debate to give opposition members the opportunity COincidentally two serious cases happened to come to participate. Having made those arrangements and to the attention of my electorate office this week and having shown that consideration it is a bit galling to that is the reason I have decided to participate in a hear someone argue that the government does not debate from which I have usually shied away. I take the bill seriously. believe dreamers should be separated from their dreams in the same way parents should be I was involved in 1985 in the negotiations with the separated from their children as they get a bit older then government to introduce the Workcare scheme. for the benefit of all involved. I am experiencing a bit That gave me the opportunity to see some of the of that at home at the moment. We never seem to get implications of the subtleties of that scheme and the rid of daughters. It does not matter how old they way it worked in practice. I remember that John are; we always have an empty wallet. Cain and Peter Sheehan claimed that the government needed to be diligent to ensure that One of the cases I mentioned concerns a dental nurse injured workers did not have the opportunity to rort who really wants to get back to work. She sustained the system. Contrary to the position that has been a legitimate injury to her hand seven years ago and taken by the Labor Party, the aspiration of the her employer admitted liability. She has been to former Labor government, or at least of its leaders, rehabilitation and has undergone a series of hacksaw was that psychological overlay should be totally operations on her hand. She will never be able to excluded from any consideration and qualification work again and, contrary to the act, her employer for entitlement to benefits under the scheme. does not want her back for reasons that can be understood. I deliberately used an expression wider than merely accessing the common-law aspects of the scheme The Workcover ads are an absolute joke, particularly because in the original version of the Workcare when it comes to small businesses such as dental proposal there was no common-law entitlement at surgeries. Her employer does not want her back all. Even with regard to the no-fault provisions of because the surgery does not have many staff, and the scheme my understanding of the position of John the bill makes no proviSion for that. This woman has Cain, Rob Jolly and Peter Sheehan and the lost her marriage, her house, her lifestyle and her leadership of the Labor Party at that time was that ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1623 they wanted the National and Liberal parties to if the scheme is open to rorting and is seen by those ensure that psychological overlay was totally who fund it - the employers - to be unfair and to excluded from the scheme. In those days, the have inadequate controls on access to benefits, that coalition opposition took the view that it was will work against employees. appropriate to retain an overlay of fault concept - that is, to preserve common-law rights, albeit on a In 1985 when Workcare was introduced and was severely restricted basis - and the scheme was wide open to rorting, employers began to insist, as deliberately biased towards the most seriously they were entitled to do, that workers declare when injured. That has remained one of the guiding seeking employment whether they had made principles in formulating this legislation. Workcare claims. Workers who had made serious Workcare claims found it very difficult to gain A key feature of the reforms the current government employment because employers were reluctant to introduced in 1992 was a significant modification of take on people when there was a Significant risk that the scheme designed to deliberately bias it to those people were rorting the scheme or were in provide the maximum protection and support to contact with people enabling them to rort the those who needed it most. Compensation is scheme. A scheme with inadequate controls and important, and the human dignity that attaches to which is perceived to be open to rorting will work having the community provide support through the against those it is designed to assist, and it will work taxation system or compulsory compensation against those who fall prey to people who use the schemes is an important part of a civilised society. system to advantage themselves at the expense of Although we might debate particular features of the workers. system, I do not think anyone would deny that the system provides injured workers with a dignified In the narrow self-interest of injured workers, it is lifestyle and support from the remainder of the important that the scheme is constantly monitored to community. Indeed, compared with a number of ensure that it is equitable across all claimants and other states, our system provides greater benefits to that a culture does not develop where some people injured workers, and in this area, not only exploit the scheme. A number of the amendments in historically but also with regard to standard of care, this bill reflect the fact that advisers to workers have Australia is among the world leaders. Our system started to exploit the scheme in a number of ways, provides protection particularly for those who are particularly in the area of psychological overlay, most seriously injured. which is the main focus of this debate. We are living in an increasingly competitive world where our I emphasise the importance the government attaches economy is increasingly exposed to international to compensation so that what I will say next is not trade. We are setting ourselves the task of having a distorted and it is not said that the government is relatively high standard of living and of dignity and driven simply by numbers. The balance I would like support for injured workers. to see in the debate from members opposite has been absent. I do not want to be unfair to opposition If the cost of funding that scheme becomes members because I appreciate their criticising the uncompetitive it will tend to drive workers out of things they have criticised and their not endorsing jobs. There is no disagreement about that the things they regard as unsatisfactory, but they manifestation of the cost consequence, because if we have not been prepared to recognise that it is go back to the original Workcare publication put out important to ensure that the scheme remains by the former Labor government we see that the financially viable and cost effective in the sense of idea of cutting the cost of workers compensation to not burdening industry -- create jobs was one of the key selling features for Workcare. Workers have an immediate interest in Mr Brumby interjected. making sure that our scheme remains cost effective even while it is providing a dignified standard of Mr STOCKDALE - I take that back. If the support for injured workers. honourable member for Springvale did say that, I missed it. I would be pleased if he did say that, The third feature that makes cost relevant is the because it makes bipartisan the point that I wanted security of benefits. Around Canada and the United to make. It is worth mentioning why it is important States, and most particularly in New Zealand, we to concentrate on the cost of the scheme and the level can see the responses that not just governments but of funding input that it requires from Victorian communities are driven to if their compulsory industry. The first and most important reason is that insurance schemes become non-viable. The ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

1624 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 inevitable consequence is that not only does the cost he later made this claim through his solicitors and become prohibitive to the funding group - the was subsequently assessed as qualifying for the employer in this case but in New Zealand the total serious injury definition. community through the contribution structure - but attempts are constantly made to cut costs by A 38-year-old male policeman suffered a back injury driving down benefits. Inevitably they begin to have while on leave. The medical certificate referred only an impact, as the scheme slides further and further to his back injury and not to psycholOgical into the red, on even those who are most seriously impairment. Two assessments put his disability at injured. 10 per cent and 18 per cent. He had had no psychiatric or psychological treatment since 1985. In New Zealand, for example, the protection of The first reference to psychiatric problems was more injured persons was put at risk because the scheme than two and a half years after the initial injury. He became non-viable through inadequate control of had no treatment relative to the injury for a costs. Although Workcover has made great progress considerable period before that claim was initiated. in preserving an adequate level of protection for Obviously one could look at the facts and draw injured workers, there will always be some injustices conclusions from them. Some people will draw in a scheme of this kind and some people will fall different conclusions. The absence of any attention through some cracks somewhere. It is important that over long periods suggests that this is the lump-sum we focus on those people and try to cure the phenomenon at work rather than genuine problem. But by and large the scheme provides a psychological injury. dignified standard of care. It does so at a cost that is viable even in the intensely competitive world of It is worth making two points about this bill. First of Australian industry. The fact that it is in the black all, the bill does not remove the narrative definition and is reasonably secure is no reason to abandon of serious injury. The single-minded focus Labor focusing on potential risks to the scheme and, in speakers have put on the 30 per cent criterion particular, to security of benefits in the future for the ignores the fact that the scheme actually has two most seriously injured workers. tracks to qualify for the higher level and longer term benefits. The narrative definition was always It is clear that there are many instances of abuse of intended to be the more important of the two the scheme. Let me give just three quick examples to definitions. The medical benefits guide measure was counter those that have been given by speakers from always intended to be a cross-check on that the other side. The first concerns a 21-year-old fundamental principle. The practice of the scheme marine mechanic who suffered a back injury. He has been the reverse. Part of the benefit of the made no reference to a psychological disability in change to the definition will be to reorientate it to the initial statement of his injuries. He was the original intention, which I think it is fair to say reassessed after 26 weeks and his physical disability both parties had at the time. was assessed at 10 per cent. Only then did his medical certificates start listing depression as one of Secondly, contrary to the assertion of the honourable the symptoms of his back injury. When psychiatric member for Geelong North, this bill does not impairment was added in he was assessed at being remove an entitlement to compensation based on 30 per cent injured. The only time at which psychiatric or psychological disorder. However, it depression became part of the matrix of factors was prevents the compounding of a physical injury as when he failed to pass the test to access the higher the primary injury with psychological overlay. A level of benefits. worker who is incapacitated as a result of psychological disability on its own would still be A 38-year-old male manual worker also suffered a assessed on the basis of that psychological disability. back injury. He had employment for two and a half So it deals with the compounding and not, as the months in 1989. After some treatment he was found honourable member suggested, removing -- fit to return to work. In December 1993 a solicitor lodged a claim, including a claim for loss of mental Mr Micallef - Provided it is primary. powers. That had never before featured in any of the claims made on his behalf. His physical injury was Mr STOCKDALE - Yes. I think I have described assessed by different doctors as being between 1 per it in those terms. It does not do what the honourable cent and 21 per cent. He had never been member for Geelong North said. That was the basis compensated for any treatment associated with of his whole attack on the bill. psychiatric or psychological disability. Nonetheless, ACCIDENT COMPENSATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1625

We are obliged to look at the adequacy of the Cole,Mr Mildenhall, Mr compensation we provide and also at the viability of Cunningham, Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr the scheme. In the viability of the scheme is founded Dollis,Mr Savage,Mr the security of the benefits that the most seriously Garbutt, Ms Seitz, Mr injured workers depend upon. This bill is Gillett, Ms (Teller) Sheehan,Mr continuing - and it will have to carry on doing Haermeyer, Mr Thwaites, Mr so - to monitor the performance of the scheme to Hamilton, Mr Wilson,Mrs ensure that it not only achieves its objective but that it will go on doing so in the future. Jobs will be Amendment negatived. provided for Victorians as we contain abuse of the system and ensure that the costs are affordable for House divided on motion: the community while maximising protection for the most seriously injured workers. I commend the bill Ayes, 53 to the house. Andrighetto, Mr Maclellan, Mr Ashley,Mr McNamara, Mr House divided on omission (members in favour Brown,Mr Maughan,Mr vote no): Burke,Ms Napthine, Dr Clark, Mr Paterson, Mr Ayes,53 Coleman,Mr Perrin, Mr Andrighetto, Mr (Teller) Maclellan, Mr Cooper,Mr Perton, Mr Ashley,Mr McNamara, Mr Dean, Dr Pescott, Mr Brown,Mr Maughan,Mr Dixon,Mr Peulich,Mrs Burke, Ms Napthine, Dr Doyle,Mr Phillips, Mr Clark,Mr Paterson, Mr Elder,Mr Reynolds, Mr Coleman,Mr Perrin,Mr Elliott, Mrs Richardson, Mr Cooper,Mr Perton,Mr Finn,Mr Rowe,Mr Dean, Dr Pescott,Mr Gude,Mr Ryan,Mr Dixon, Mr (Teller) Peulich, Mrs Henderson, Mrs Shardey, Mrs (Teller) Doyle,Mr Phillips, Mr Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr E.R. Elder,Mr Reynolds, Mr Jasper, Mr Smith, Mr IW. Elliott, Mrs Richardson, Mr Jenkins, Mr Spry,Mr Finn,Mr Rowe,Mr Kilgour, Mr Steggall, Mr Gude,Mr Ryan,Mr Lean, Mr (Teller) Stockdale, Mr Henderson, Mrs Shardey, Mrs Leigh,Mr Tehan, Mrs Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr ER Lupton,Mr Thompson, Mr Jasper, Mr Smith, Mr IW. McArthur, Mr Traynor,Mr Jenkins,Mr Spry,Mr McCall,Ms Treasure, Mr Kilgour,Mr Steggall, Mr McGill,Mrs Wade,Mrs Lean,Mr Stockdale, Mr McGrath, Mr W.D. Wells,Mr Leigh,Mr Tehan,Mrs McLellan, Mr Lupton,Mr Thompson, Mr McArthur, Mr Traynor,Mr Noes, 30 McCall,Ms Treasure, Mr Andrianopoulos, Mr Hulls,Mr McGill,Mrs Wade,Mrs Baker,Mr Kosky,Ms McGrath, Mr W.D. Wells,Mr Batchelor, Mr Langdon,Mr McLellan, Mr Bracks,Mr Leighton, Mr Brumby,Mr Urn,Mr Noes,30 Cameron, Mr (Teller) Loney,Mr Andrianopoulos, Mr Hulls,Mr CampbelI,Ms Maddigan, Mrs Baker,Mr Kosky,Ms Carli,Mr Mica1lef, Mr Batchelor, Mr Langdon,Mr Cole,Mr Mildenhall, Mr Bracks, Mr Leighton, Mr Cunningham, Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr Brumby,Mr Urn, Mr (Teller) Dollis,Mr Savage, Mr (Teller) Cameron,Mr Loney,Mr Garbutt, Ms Seitz, Mr Campbell,Ms Maddigan, Mrs Gillett, Ms Sheehan,Mr Carli,Mr Mica1lef, Mr Haermeyer, Mr Thwaites, Mr LORD MAYOR'S CHARITABLE FUND BILL

1626 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

Hamilton, Mr Wilson,Mrs Mr HULLS (Niddrie) - I will not speak for long on the Magistrates' Court (Amendment) Bill, but Motion agreed to by absolute majority. I raise a number of matters of concern. The main concern the opposition has about the proposed Read second time; by leave, proceeded to third legislation is its retrospective nature. The opposition reading. always has grave concerns about retrospective legislation and in the main the Scrutiny of Acts and Third reading Regulations Committee also has such grave concerns.

Motion agreed to by absolute majority. Mr Hamilton interjected.

Read third time. Mr HULLS - Under the new leadership it appears that members of the committee are Remaining stages prepared to stand up and voice their concerns about retrospective legislation, which is a good thing. I will Passed remaining stages. deal with the committee's report shortly.

LORD MAYOR'S CHARITABLE FUND The bill attempts to do a number of things. It BILL appears to seek to address six problems a compliance audit found existed in the Sheriff's Returned from Council with message relating to Office. As I understand it, a compliance audit of the amendment. Sheriff's Office was undertaken with a view to contracting out a number of the activities of the Council's amendment: office, but before that was done a compliance audit was undertaken to ascertain whether the Sheriff's Clause 12, line 11, before "co-option" insert "annual Office was complying with the relevant legislation. meeting of the Board next following the member's". It appears that the audit found a number of problems that need to be addressed. urgently. I will Or NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and deal with them briefly. Community Services) - I move: As members know, under the penalty enforcement That the amendment be agreed to. by registration of infringement notice (PERIN) system, the responsibility for collection of some fines Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - The opposition was transferred to the Sheriff's Office some time ago. does not oppose this amendment. The PERIN system can be used for certain prescribed offences only. The offences are prescribed Motion agreed to. in schedule 7 of the Magistrates' Court Act, but they are not so prescribed under section 99 of that act. My MAGISTRATES' COURT understanding is that the compliance audit found (AMENDMENT) BILL that that could be a real problem and may have the effect of making warrants issued. under the PERIN Message read recommending further appropriation. system illegal. I will return to that particular problem, which the bill seeks to address, shortly. Government amendments circulated by Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) pursuant to Despite what the Attorney-General may have said in sessional orders. either her second-reading speech or to the media since the bill was introduced - she is surprised that Second reading no lawyers have been able to pick up the problem - it appears that the problem was picked up and that Debate resumed from 14 November; motion of mention was made of it in a number of cases, some Mrs WADE (Attorney-General). of which were conducted quite some time ago.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! Before calling The second problem the bill seeks to address is that the honourable member for Niddrie I advise the under section 58 of the Magistrates' Court Act house that this bill is required. to be carried. by an warrants have a life of five years unless they are absolute majority. extended. Apparently the Sheriff has been taking MAGISTRATES' COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1627 action on warrants that have expired. In other seeks to make legal acts that the department has words, the Sheriff has sought either payment or found to have been illegal. In her second-reading imprisonment on the basis of a number of warrants speech the Attorney-General said that in effect the that appear to have expired. The bill seeks bill just makes some minor technical amendments retrospectively to address that problem, which again that are necessary because of problems relating to highlights the concern all members of Parliament legislation that was drafted under the previous have expressed in the past about retrospective Laboradministration.lthinkshewasexpecting legislation. However, the bill seems to attempt to bipartisan support for the bill, but the legislation make legal imprisonment that without the proposes more than that and the problems the bill legislation would be illegal, so it certainly has fairly seeks to address suggest that these are more than drastic ramifications. just technical amendments - they propose to take away people's rights. The third problem the bill seeks to address relates to the power of magistrates to recall and cancel Parliament and the community ought to be very warrants. It appears that magistrates have acted on concerned about that, and we ought to think long the assumption that they also have the power to and hard before simply agreeing to passing reissue warrants. The compliance audit found that a retrospective legislation. Therefore I propose to problem exists with the reissued warrants. Again move a reasoned amendment to the bill. I move: there is some question about their legality. That all the words after 'That' be omitted with the view The fourth problem sought to be addressed is that it of inserting in place thereof the words 'this house appears that between 1991 and 1995 the Registrar of refuses to read this bill a second time until a proper the PERIN Court issued warrants under the PERIN review is conducted into - system electronically and doubt has now been raised (a) the impact of the bill's effect on all Victorian legal about whether the act of simply pushing a button to proceedings which may be affected; and issue a warrant constitutes the reissuing of a warrant. The bill seeks retrospectively to address (b) the conduct of the Sheriff in the collection of fines that perceived problem. and imprisonment of fine defaulters.'. The amendment is straightforward and reasonable The fifth problem is that in the past Sheriff's officers and I urge all members to support it. I am sure all have entered into arrangements with people to pay members are concerned about retrospective over a period of time money owing in relation to legislation. In fact, when she was shadow warrants. The audit has found that power to enter Attorney-General the Attorney-General herself into such arrangements lies only with the Registrar expressed concern about it. When the Magistrates' of the PERIN Court and not with the Sheriff's Office. Court (Amendment) Bill was being debated in Again, it would appear that a number of warrants September 1990 the Attorney-General is reported at that have been reissued have been reissued illegally. page 945 of Hansard as having said: The sixth problem the bill attempts to address is that the Sheriff's Office has been charging a fee of some This would be most unfortunate, as the bill is clearly retrospective legislation. The opposition does not $79 for the execution of each warrant. It seems that normally support retrospective legislation. the advice the Department of Justice has received suggests that the fee cannot be charged as an I certainly agree with her. The Attorney-General up-front fee. Of course, a number of people have made it clear at that stage, and rightly so, that she been dealt with in relation to the non-payment of the and the then opposition generally did not support fee and as a result the legislation again seeks retrospective legislation. I also take that view. When retrospectively to make legal what may well in the one is dealing with retrospective legislation one is past have been illegal. dealing with people's rights and one is having a huge impact on those rights. Before dealing in particular with the first of the problems being addressed, I repeat that the I thank the Attorney-General for allowing me to opposition has grave concerns about retrospective have a briefing on this matter. From time to time legislation generally, but particularly when we are when briefings are sought they are offered but it is talking about, if you like, snuffing out people's often a little too close to when the bill is due to come rights. That is putting it fairly crudely, but that is before the house. I received a briefing on this bill what retrospective legislation often does. The bill some time ago and many concerns were raised at MAGISTRATES' COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL

1628 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 that briefing. I asked specifically how many people her matter. The second reading of the bill was on were currently or had been in gaol as a result of 14 November or thereabouts and I understand if any non-payment of fines under faulty warrants - that proceedings had been issued prior to that date in all is, warrants which have since been found to have likelihood this measure will not affect them. been faulty and which the bill seeks to address. However, I seek an assurance that that is the case. I Unfortunately the officers at the departmental have spoken to people representing Clare Cameron briefing were not able to say. They said it would be and I am advised they have already issued far too difficult to ascertain exactly how many proceedings against the state for wrongful arrest, people had been locked up as a result of illegal false imprisonment and a whole range of things. I warrants. want an undertaking from the Attorney-General that this measure will not have any adverse impact on The Attorney-General said in her second-reading her case. In fact, the bill should enhance her case. I speech that people in the main are fully aware when have seen the pleadings and if she is alleging that they have broken a law and either deliberately or she was falsely imprisoned under a warrant that was inadvertently in many cases do not pay the fines that illegally issued, the fact that the government has are issued under warrants. We are talking about introduced this bill confirms her case. minor penalties such as parking fines and the like where a person gets a sticker on the car and either Another matter has also come to my attention. I have refuses or inadvertently forgets to pay the fine. The spoken to the person involved, Mr John O'Hagan, parking infringement notice says that if a person and his legal representatives. I do not know whether does not pay the fine he or she will receive a the Attorney-General has had any correspondence courtesy letter in due course. That has happened to from him or his legal representatives but many people on many occasions. Ultimately if no Mr O'Hagan received a number of parking fines action is taken for a substantial period, under the some time ago. He was a young student and a muso PERIN system, people do not go before the court but who played in a band. He had an old VW beetle that are simply visited by the Sheriff's officer, told to pay he used to lend to his mates. Sometimes he received up and if they do not have the money they are taken parking fines but in a large number of cases it was away to gaol. his mates. As most students do, he moved from house to house and possibly could not be contacted The opposition is concerned that there may well because he was no longer at the addresses to which have been numerous people taken away, locked up the notices were sent. Some years past and he and in some cases abused - because that certainly continued to move from house to house and happens regularly. They may not have been able to continued to get parking fines but simply did not afford legal advice or alternatively may not have have the means to pay them. thought they had recourse to the courts. Had they been advised at the time that the warrants were Because of the nature of his part-time work playing illegally issued they may well have raised that as a in a band he used to have to park outside venues defence. late at night to unpack his gear and from time to time he received parking tickets. As time passed he I suspect the majority of people have Simply refused forgot how many parking tickets he had. In any to pay the penalties and have had to suffer the event, he was also a student and I am advised that consequences - and so be it. Although I repeat that he was approached in a lecture theatre one day by a the opposition is opposed in the main to gentleman who said his car was being trashed or retrospective legislation, I can understand the somebody was attempting to knock off his car. He difficulties that would ensue if Parliament decided walked out of the lecture theatre to investigate only that all those people, bona fide or otherwise, were to be arrested by the Sheriff's officer and the next allowed to take action against the state. I have no thing he knew he was in gaol. doubt there are some people with bona fide actions in these matters and we need to ascertain how many No one knew where he was. He was advised that he exist, what has occurred to them and decide whether owed some thousands of dollars in parking fines they should be given the opportunity to seek advice. and that if he paid half there and then he would not be taken off to gaol. But he did not have any money, I understand there are possibly two matters so he was taken away. He has since sought legal currently on foot. I know of at least one, the case of advice, which is that he has a good case to bring Clare Cameron. My understanding is that against the Sheriff's Office for wrongful arrest. He proceedings have already been issued in relation to has also spent some time in prison, so it may well be MAGISTRATES' COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1629 that he has a good case to bring for false examine as soon as possible the feasibility of imprisonment, as well. The difficulty is that he did introducing legislation to allow the Sheriff to do so not issue proceedings prior to 14 November. The in the future, rather than just retrospectively legislation probably takes away any right he may approving the arrangements he has entered into in have had to institute proceedings as a result of his the past. arrest. That is of grave concern to the opposition, and I hope it is also of grave concern to government At page 27 the committee said this about the members. retrospective nature of the bill:

I will briefly examine what the Scrutiny of Acts and The committee notes the retrospective nature of Regulations Committee has to say about the clause 3 in relation to sections 4, 5(1) and 8 ... Clause 4 legislation, particularly its retrospective nature. It is retrospectively validates the re-issue of certain important that all members understand exactly what warrants. Clause 5 retrospectively validates certain retrospective legislation does. It may be that this warrants which may have been improperly issued legislation will snuff out the legal rights of despite having expired. Clause 8 retrospectively Mr Q'Hagan and have an impact on Clare Cameron, validates certain offences for the purposes of being although I hope not. But if John Q'Hagan is out prescribed offences within the meaning of the schedule. there, there are other people out there as well, which is the point my reasoned amendment seeks to The committee then noted some of the comments the address. If the good case Mr Q'Hagan has will be Attorney-General made in her second-reading snuffed out, the legislation will no doubt take away speech. It continues: the rights of many other people out there who believe they have been wronged by the PERIN The committee wrote to the Attorney-General in system because warrants have been inappropriately respect of a number of matters relating to the issued. They may well have just cause to seek retrospective nature of the bill on 26 November 1996. compensation, but the legislation will stop them The Attorney-General responded by way of letter ... doing so. The Attorney-General's letter is then quoted. I am The Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee not privy to the letter the committee wrote to the was so concerned about the retrospective nature of Attorney-General. However, I guess the committee the legislation that it wrote to the Attorney-General expressed real concerns about the retrospective asking her to address its concerns. At page 26 of nature of the legislation, because the Alert Digest No. 10, the committee summarised the Attorney-General appears to have addressed some bill, making it clear that it would: of them. In her letter, which is quoted at page 28 of the Alert Digest, she refers, among other things, to: Authorise the re-issue of warrants in the future and validate past re-issues; limit the life of non-executed ... the execution of warrants to imprison for the and future warrants to five years regardless of whether non-payment of a fine and warrants to detain in a they are re-issued; place beyond doubt the validity of youth training centre for the non-payment of a fine electronic issue of warrants; validate any execution of which may have expired after they were given a life of any warrant which section 58(2) of the act applied and five years by the Magistrates' Court Act 1989. which had purported to be re-issued; authorise arrangements made by the Sheriff in the past to allow That confirms their retrospective nature. Then she fine defaulters to enter into time to pay arrangements; says: introduce a fee structure to reflect separately the cost of different stages of the fine enforcement process; ensure ... since the bill has received its second reading, some of that no proceedings may be brought in relation to the above problems - actions regularised by the bill. which she referred to earlier- The committee commented on the bill's retrospectivity, which I will come to. The legislation have been identified as applying to some warrants authorises arrangements made in the past by the which are issued as a result of the non-payment of fines Sheriff to allow fine defaulters to enter into imposed by open court. time-to-pay arrangements. I do not have the slightest problem with the Sheriff being able to enter into She goes on to say: those arrangements. I ask the Attorney-General to MAGISTRATES' COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL

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The committee expresses concern in relation to the Mr HULLS - The Attorney-General says she possibility that people may have been imprisoned on might sit down with me if I get some manners. She invalidly issued warrants. has attempted to use standover tactics on people such as Bernard Bongiorno, Moira Rayner and the That is exactly the same concern which I am judges of the former Accident Compensation expressing today and for which my reasoned Tribunal judges, yet suddenly she says she might sit amendment seeks redress. The Attorney-General down with me if I get some manners! There is one believes the possibility is real. In her letter she then thing you can say about me, Attorney: I understand says: what you have done to destroy the independence of the judiciary in this state. There is no question about There is, however, no fine defaulter currently that. imprisoned on a warrant which was issued invalidly. The secretary of the Department of Justice in his role as I also understand the doctrine of the separation of Director-General of Corrections instructed the powers and the need for an independent judiciary. conunissioner of correctional services to release any The Attorney-General does not, or refuses to, prisoner held pursuant to an invalid warrant. I have understand that, and that is why the judicial system been advised that the commissioner for correctional in this state is in crisis. If I were the services released seven people who were imprisoned Attorney-General of this state, Douglas Graharn and terminated nine custodial community permits. would not be the Solicitor-General. I would have the guts to tell him to stand down. If I were the I would be interested to know how many of the Attorney-General, I would not have bought BHP seven who were imprisoned and the nine who were shares and then made a decision affecting BHP. involved in custodial permits will be re-atTested once the legislation is passed by both houses. I Or Dean - On a point of order, Mr Acting would also be interested to ascertain whether, Speaker, I know during the second-reading debate a because of the retrospective nature of the legislation, fair degree of flexibility is given, but there are limits it will be possible for the Sheriff to enter into and the comments of the shadow Attorney-General time-te-pay arrangements with those people. It must have some relevance to the bill. This bill is a appears that the legislation seeks to retrospectively technical bill introducing technical amendments to make proper or validate previous time-te-pay correct a specific situation. It is not appropriate for arrangements, but what happens if those people do the shadow Attorney-General to launch into areas not want to go back to gaol? Will they be entitled to which he has already covered in other speeches in enter into time-te-pay arrangements? In her letter this house and which are not related to this bill. It is the Attorney-General goes on to say: also not appropriate for him to refer to the Attorney-General as you, or whatever, across the The criticism of the committee regarding the table. The shadow Attorney-General should address retrospective nature of the bill is understood. It is felt, his comments to you, Sir, as the Acting Speaker. however, that these [are] exceptional circwnstances. That is a subsidiary point; the main point is that he is straying too far from this technical bill. The committee is extremely critical of the retrospective nature of this legislation. There are The ACfING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - some circumstances that are exceptional, but I do not Order! The honourable member for Niddrie has think all the problems the government is seeking to started to stray from the subject of the bill and I ask address by way of retrospective legislation are him to return to it. exceptional. As members of Parliament we have to have due regard to the rights of people who may Mr HULLS - I accept the ruling, Mr Acting have bona fide actions against the department. Speaker. As you would know, it is very difficult to have a rational discussion about a bill when one There are a number of real problems with the PERIN knows that the person who has introduced the bill system, which was introduced by the previous has wreaked so much havoc on the justice system of government. At some stage I would be keen to sit this state. Nonetheless, I expect that her time will down with either the Attorney-General, which in the come. current environment is not likely to happen, or with some of her -- One of the difficulties with the PERIN system is that it denies people the right to a court hearing. People Mrs Wade intezjected. who have not committed criminal offences can find MAGISTRATES' COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1631 themselves in gaol without having appeared before Berwick has a problem with that, he should go into a court. The Parliament should have a long, hard the real world and find out about people's inability look at that matter. I understand that the to pay fines. That is what is happening in the real philosophical basis for the introduction of the world. PERIN system was to ensure that trivial matters did not clog up our courts. However, there have been The opposition has always had grave concerns about numerous cases where people, often through no retrospective legislation and that is why it moved a fault of their own, have found themselves in gaol as reasoned amendment to ensure that people's rights a result of the system and have been denied access to are maintained and so that Clare Cameron - she is a court of law. the only person I am aware of who has taken action against the state, but there may be others - will not In a number of ways people can avoid going to gaol have her rights affected adversely. I moved the because they have committed mere parking reasoned amendment so it can be ascertained offences - and one way is to pay their parking whether other people have bona fide cases against fines. Another suggestion put to me - it is probably the state for wrongful arrest or imprisonment. appropriate to inform the house of it because it is legal and it may assist people who are not sure A review of the Sheriff's Office should be conducted whether they are responsible for the parking offence because it appears from the many people to whom I they have allegedly committed - is that people are have spoken that in many cases the Sheriff and entitled to seek the full particulars of the offence. members of his office have been very heavy handed in the treatment meted out to a number of people. A person who has received a parking ticket can They have used their discretion almost as it suits write to the prosecutions, traffic and by-laws section them rather than according to objective guidelines. of the particular city in which it is alleged the The Attorney-General said she was surprised that parking infringement occurred and request specific some smart lawyers have not picked up the details of that matter. In seeking those details he or problems in the past. In the Kenyan case, of which she can make it clear that he or she requires the the Attorney-General should be aware, an information sought prior to electing whether to pay individual pleaded in the Magistrate's Court that his the fine or be dealt with under the PERIN parking infringement notices were illegal because enforcement procedure. The details a person can the penalty imposed had not been prescribed under seek include a copy of the authorised officer's the relevant section of the Magistrates' Court Act. authority to prosecute proceedings under He won his case in the Magistrates Court, but when section 77(2) of the Road Safety Act 1986; a copy of it went on appeal to the Supreme Court, Mr Justice the authorised officer's usual handwriting and Ashley found that although the infringement had signature; copies of all file notes, including not been prescribed specifically under section 99 it handwritten notes and statements of witnesses; and was a prescribed offence. written summaries of any evidence likely to be given. The court system was certainly aware of this Or Dean interjected. problem. Mr Kenyan was aware of this problem some time ago. Retrospective legislation is being Mr HULLS - The honourable member for introduced into the Parliament when it appears that Berwick says I am trying to stuff the system up. It is the courts have already found that schedule 7 of the crucial that people understand their rights under the Magistrates' Court Act prescribes these offences. The law. I do not know who the honourable member for fact that they are not prescribed in section 99 does Berwick mixes with, but many people do not know not really make any difference. their rights, and the Attorney-General mentioned that in her second-reading speech. She said she was In any event, the real purpose of the reasoned surprised that some smart lawyers have not raised a amendment is to ensure that people' 5 rights are number of these problems in the past, particularly maintained and that the rights of bona fide litigants with regard to section 99 and schedule 7. are not snuffed out. We also believe that before any retrospective legislation is passed we need to look at Many people cannot afford lawyers and do not the conduct of the Sheriff's Office in relation to the know their rights. People are entitled to seek full collection of fines and the imprisonment of fine particulars before they decide whether to be dealt defaulters. with under the PERIN system, and that is not inappropriate. If the honourable member for MAGISTRATES' COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Mr CAMERON (Bendigo West) - I wish to She says that four years later. If the make a short contribution to the debate on the Attorney-General was so keen on reviewing Magistrates' Court (Amendment) Bill. I support the everything one would have thought she would have reasoned amendment moved by the honourable done that years ago. member for Niddrie, and I am sure all members of the house will support it. I hope the honourable Mr Baker - It is slack. member for Berwick, if he takes the time to peruse the amendment, will also support it rather than Mr CAMERON - It is slack, the honourable simply reacting to it. On the whole the PERIN member for Sunshine is on the ball. I will give the system has been a substantial development in the house an example of one of the problems in the administration of justice in Victoria. PERIN system. It relates to a young bloke in Castlemaine whose case came to my attention a few Or Dean interjected. months ago. He was totally unaware that he had been fined and that the fine proceeded through the Mr CAMERON - I will say it again: on the PERIN Court. He was ultimately hit with a final whole the PERIN system has been a substantial demand notice to pay up within 30 days or he development in the administration of justice in would go to gaol. That young man did not receive Victoria. In addition, the mention system introduced any of the earlier correspondence. That is the by the former Labor government has been a problem with the system. The imposition of the fine substantial development in the administration of was not brought to the young man's attention. Many justice in Victoria. It has freed a lot of court time so people find themselves in that position. They have that the courts can get on with other business. two choices: they can either go to all the expense of However, there are problems in the PERIN system, undoing what has happened or they can just pay up. and that is what we are discussing today. It is much easier to just pay up than to go through the burden of undoing it. Mr E. R. Smith - There have been problems for years. What we are dealing with here is retrospective legislation. When we talk about the freedom of the Mr CAMERON - The honourable member for individual or, as the old text books used to say, the Glen Waverley says there have been problems for freedom of the subject, retrospectivity has to be the years. This came about in 1989. It has been there greatest issue. As a society we have always erred on for-- the side of caution when it comes to the freedom of individuals. Or Dean interjected. When we look at the retrospective nature of the Mr CAMERON - I should not take up the legislation we see why we must proceed with the interjection but I will. In 1989 the government that greatest caution. I doubt whether anyone in this wanted to improve the administration of justice was house would disagree with that propOSition. Many the Labor government. The Labor government freed of the prOvisions of the PERIN system have been up the justice system. This law was around for three utilised on the basis that that was the law; in other years. We had an election. Who was elected? The words, it was de facto recognition. However, it has crowd that sit opposite! How many years has it been recently been brought to the attention of the since 1992? Four years! In four years what have government that that is not the case. those opposite done? I will give an example. One of the problems concerns Mr Baker - Nothing. the reissuing of warrants. The legislation has been very clear that a fresh warrant has to be issued in the Mr CAMERON - They turn up here today and Magistrates Court. Obviously one has to ask oneself say, 'Oh, there's a problem'. In her correspondence why the Sheriff has gone about it in this way. The to the Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee honourable member for Niddrie has correctly the Attorney-General said: pointed out that there needs to be a review of the Sheriff's Office. I think it is obvious to anyone that It is clear that the legislative compliance audit should that ought to be the case. have been conducted more frequently. The honourable member for Niddrie also seeks a review of the bill's effects on the legal rights of MAGISTRATES' COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Victorians. As members of this house are very government that introduced such legislation would concerned with the liberty of the subject and with think it was part of its duties as a good government the issue of retrospectivity, I would have thought to let the people charged with the responsibility of that that was an entirely reasonable proposition. The issuing the warrants know the law had been proposition is so reasonable that I cannot changed. The previous government did not do that; understand why there is the slightest bit of it introduced legislation but took no care to ensure resistance to it on the part of members opposite. that the Sheriff and all others concerned knew what it had done. The Sheriff went merrily along issuing The amendment moved by the honourable member warrants unlimited in time, and hence this problem for Niddrie is not only sensible but totally has been created. As I said I did not want to get into reasonable. There is no decent reason why it should apportioning blame. I originally thought, 'Let's have be opposed. If we are to protect the freedom of a logical debate'. individuals and beware of the introduction of retrospective legislation, the review proposed by the When discovering the system was mucked up in honourable member for Niddrie ought to be 1990 a logical government rolls up its sleeves and endorsed. says, 'How are we going to fix this?'. The opposition suggests the problems can be fixed by conducting a Dr DEAN (Berwick) - I would like to support a second review. The current problems were brought number of points the honourable member for to attention by the very audit the opposition Bendigo West has just mentioned. I first of all suggests should be done again. Having conducted support his original statement that he would give a the audit and realising a problem exists - the very short speech. I support that because, frankly, problem is compounding itself day by day as invalid from what he had to say, the shorter the better. warrants are issued - why would a logical government stop the amending process, allow the He also said that the PERIN system is a good invalidity to continue and wander through the tulips system, and I support him on that. It is not only a while another investigation is conducted? Are these good system, it is an essential system. There is no people serious about governing this state? They possible way one could deal with these offences cannot possibly be. without the implementation of a system of this kind. The Labor government was correct in its decision to How can the opposition put itself up as an introduce the system. alternative government if it says on finding a problem that is compounding itself again and again, I scribbled down some notes last night when I 'We will take no notice of the problem. We will have thought I might have to speak on this bill. I wrote, another audit and wait for the problem to get worse. 'no good blaming anyone'. I thought we would have Then we will introduce some retrospective a logical debate, but not so. It does not seem as legislation to fix it up'. Retrospective legislation is though the opposition can ever take part in a logical the only way this problem could be resolved if the debate about a piece of legislation. The opposition opposition's suggested course were followed. The knows when something like this happens one has to opposition will not come up with any other solution move quickly to fix it. That is what government is because there is none. Further down the line about. If the opposition does not understand that, it retrospective legislation would be necessary - after ought not be allowed to get anywhere near the problem had become worse! It is an indictment government. A government knows it cannot allow a of the way the opposition approaches its role. problem like this to fester. I said I would not blame Members of the opposition say they want to be in anyone, but here we have the shadow government, but in their desire to be destructive Attorney-General showing his destructive, blaming, they forget the purpose of their existence and expose negative, carping attitude to any debate. Do we need their weakness by this sort of political claptrap. to have a little bit of blame? Why don't I get caught up in this negativism for a moment? The shadow Attorney-General claims he would one day like to be the Attorney-General in charge of It started in 1990. I do not know who was the running this part of Victoria's activities and that, as a Attorney-General then, but it was certainly a Labor consequence, the PERIN system would work Attorney-General. It might have been Jim Kennan or properly. He says, 'As the Attorney-General running Andrew McCutcheon; who knows? That the system I would want everybody to know their Attorney-General introduced legislation setting a rights and I would tell them that when they get the five-year limit for warrants. One would think a notices they can exercise their rights, if they want to, MAGISTRATES' COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL

1634 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 by writing to the appropriate authority and asking Niddrie suggested that I have described the for verification of handwriting or for the authority of amendments as minor and technical. That is not so. the prosecuting officer'. When I criticise such an The government is equally concerned, if not more approach he says, 'Oh, you're not in the real world. so, about the retrospective nature of the legislation, Go and look at the real world'. but sometimes in the public interest it is necessary to introduce retrospective legislation no matter how Let us consider the shadow Attorney-General's real much one might regret that is the case. world. There he is, as the prospective Attorney-General, running the PERIN system. I can remember two occasions when a former Flooding in upon him are literally hundreds and Attorney-General, the Honourable Jim Kennan, was thousands of applications for verifications of writing forced to introduce retrospective legislation not or authority. He would be sitting under a pyramid unlike this bill. In those days actions against sexual of letters as high as the stone pyramids of Egypt, and offenders were required to be brought within a the entire system would crash. The prospective specific time frame. Unfortunately a large number of Attorney-General would destroy his own system. cases against sexual offenders were not brought Congratulations; the shadow Attorney-General has within that time frame, and the Attorney-General demonstrated to us how he would operate in was faced with a situation of either introducing government. Thank goodness for the sake of the retrospective legislation or allowing offenders not to people of Victoria that he is not in that position. stand trial.

Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) - I acknowledge Some six months after that a similar situation the contributions made by the honourable members occurred. Charges relating to serious offences such for Niddrie, Bendigo West and Berwick. It has been as murder, manslaughter, culpable driving, and a one of the most interesting debates I have heard for vast range of other offences had to be commenced some time. I was particularly interested to hear the within a certain period, and again a number of cases member for Bendigo West describe the introduction arose where that was not achieved. The newspapers of the PERIN system as one of the great leaps carried headlines that serious offenders would not forward of the Labor government and a great go to trial. Again, Jim Kennan introduced legislation improvement to the justice system - apparently the authorising retrospective prosecution. honourable member for Niddrie was not so sure about that. In both those circumstances all members were pained about the thought of retrospective legislation It has been suggested that I should have recognised in such situations, but on both occasions it was this problem sooner. Unfortunately, it is well known decided that in the greater public interest it was that the Labor government left so many problems in important that the legislation be passed. Although the justice system that it has been difficult to fit the coalition opposition had control of the upper everything in. In the past four years I have made house at that time and could have stopped the enormous changes to the justice system, and those legislation, it allowed it to go through. It is changes have been acknowledged by the honourable unfortunate that such situations occur, and one member for Niddrie. Many more changes still need should obviously take every step to ensure that they to be made to remedy the many deficiencies the do not, but when they do one must act in the public Labor Party left behind in the system. interest.

The problems with the PERIN system were not The amendment moved by the honourable member obvious, but as has been pointed out in this debate for Niddrie is not acceptable to the government for they were recognised by the department. The the reasons that applied in the two previous department is fortunate to have a number of officers situations. The bill must go through the Parliament of very high standard, and I am particularly grateful as quickly as possible. to those people who were involved in the compliance audit of the PERIN system. The The honourable member for Niddrie asked about the deficiencies that were discovered are now being effect the bill will have on proceedings that have remedied, not just for the past but for the future. been initiated in the courts. I understand that proceedings issued before 14 November will not be The honourable members for Niddrie and Bendigo affected by this legislation. However, any West expressed concern about the retrospective proceedings that have been instituted after nature of the legislation. The honourable member for MAGISTRATES' COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL

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14 November could be affected by the legislation if Dean, Or Pescott,Mr the legislation is relevant to those proceedings. Dixon, Mr Peulich, Mrs Doyle,Mr Phillips, Mr The honourable member for Niddrie referred to the Elder,Mr Reynolds, Mr case involving Clare Cameron. From memory I Elliott, Mrs Richardson, Mr believe that case is about the timing of the serving of Finn,Mr Rowe,Mr a warrant, and that issue is not covered by this bill. I Gude,Mr Ryan,Mr am not sure whether there are any other issues Henderson, Mrs Savage,Mr involved in that case or whether proceedings have Honeywood, Mr Shardey,Mrs been commenced. Jasper,Mr Smith, Mr E.R. Jenkins, Mr Smith, Mr r.w. The honourable member for Niddrie also asked Kennett,Mr Spry,Mr about the ability of the Sheriff to make arrangements Kilgour, Mr Stockdale, Mr for payments by instalments in future. He Lean,Mr Tehan,Mrs acknowledged that arrangements for payments by Leigh,Mr Thompson, Mr instalments in the past are covered by the bill in a Lupton,Mr Traynor,Mr retrospective fashion. I gather he was not arguing McArthur, Mr Treasure, Mr with that aspect of retrospectivity! The registrar of McCall, Ms (Teller) Wade,Mrs the PERIN court is able to enter into arrangements McGill,Mrs Wells,Mr for payment by instalments and has always been McGrath, Mr W.D. able to do so, and that will continue. We believe that is the better way for this matter to be handled. Noes, 28 Andrianopoulos, Mr Hamilton, Mr It is regrettable that we have to have retrospective Baker,Mr Hulls,Mr legislation. As I said, there is no alternative. We Batchelor, Mr Kosky,Ms cannot tie up government administration in Bracks, Mr Langdon,Mr revisiting thousands of warrants. It would be Brumby,Mr Leighton, Mr inequitable to revisit those warrants and to find they Cameron,Mr Lim, Mr (Teller) were invalid in circumstances where the vast Campbell,Ms Loney,Mr majority of Victorians pay their fines as and when Carli, Mr (Teller) Maddigan, Mrs they fall due so there is no need for warrants to be Cole,Mr Micallef, Mr issued. Cunningham, Mr Mildenhall, Mr Dollis,Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr It would lead to some inequitable results if we Garbutt, Ms Seitz, Mr followed the course suggested by the honourable Gillett, Ms Thwaites, Mr member for Niddrie. People who pay their fines on Haermeyer, Mr Wilson,Mrs time would not have any advantage. People who ignore them and in many cases incur fines and costs Amendment negatived. totalling thousands of dollars because they do not believe the law should apply to them would have Motion agreed to by absolute majority. some advantage. Read second time. In the interests of equity and of Victorians generally this bill should be passed by Parliament. Committed.

House divided on omission (members in favour Committee vote no) Clause 1 Ayes, 53 Andrighetto, Mr McLellan, Mr Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) - I move: Ashley,Mr McNamara, Mr 1. Clause 1, line 2, before "purpose" insert "main". Brown,Mr Maughan,Mr Burke, Ms (Teller) Napthine, Or This amendment to clause 1 of the bill makes it clear Clark, Mr Paterson, Mr that the bill will also cover validating practice Coleman,Mr Perrin,Mr relating to warrants issued under the Sentencing Act. Cooper,Mr Perton,Mr MAGISTRATES' COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Amendment agreed to; amended clause agreed to; with a person authorised to execute a clauses 2 to 5 agreed to. warrant to arrest issued under section 62 of that Act or a warrant to seize property Clause 6 issued under section 66 of that Act is deemed to be an order referred to in Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) - I move: section 55(a), (b) or (c), as the case may be, of that Act.". 2. Clause 6, line 33, omit "altered" and insert "amended, altered or varied". These amendments relate to arrangements for allowing time for payment of fines by instalments. 3. Clause 6, line 34, after "issue" insert If, unless the amendment, alteration or variation is authorised Amendments agreed to; amended clause agreed to. by or under this or any other Act". These amendments relate to amendments to Oausell warrants. MI5 WADE (Attorney-General) - I move: Amendments agreed to; amended clause agreed to. 8. Clause 11, page 6, line 8, after "imprison" insert "or a warrant to arrest" . Oause 7 9. Clause 11, page 6, line 15, after "imprison" insert "or MI5 WADE (Attorney-General) - I move: a warrant to arrest".

4. Clause 7, line 13, omit "altered" and insert "amended, 10. Clause 11, page 6, line 17, after "Act" insert "or altered or varied". under, or in accordance with an order made under, section 62 or 66 of the Sentencing Act 1991". 5. Clause 7, line 14, after "issue" insert If, unless the amendment, alteration or variation is authorised 11. Clause 11, page 6, line 18, after "execution" insert

by or under this or any other Act". 11 or warrant costs".

These amendments also relate to amendments, 12. Clause 11, page 6, line 23, after "Act" insert "or alterations and variations to warrants. under, or in accordance with an order made under, section 62 or 66 of the Sentencing Act 1991". Amendments agreed to; amended clause agreed to; 13. Clause 11, page 6, line 24, after "execution" (where clauses 8 and 9 agreed to. first occurring) insert "or warrant costs". Clause 10 These amendments relate to the electronic issue of warrants by the Sheriff and they extend various Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) - I move: provisions of the bill to open court warrants as well as PERIN warrants. 6. Clause 10, line 2, before "An" insert "(1)". 7. Clause 10, after line 15 insert- Amendments agreed to; amended clause agreed to; clauses 12 to 14 agreed to. "(2) An arrangement made before 14 November 1996- Reported to house with amendments. (a) for allowing time for the payment of a fine referred to in section 62 or 66 of the Report adopted. Sentencing Act 1991; or Third reading (b) for the payment by instalments of a fine referred to in section 62 or 66 of the Sentencing Act The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I am of the 1991; or opinion that the third reading of this bill needs to be (c) for a variation of- carried by an absolute majority of all the members of the Legislative Assembly. As there are fewer than m the terms of an instalment order referred to 46 members in the chamber, I ask the Clerk to ring in section 62 or 66 of the Sentencing Act the bells. 1991;

(ii) an arrangement referred to in paragraph (a) Bells rung. or (b)- PARLIAMENT HOUSE COMPLETION AUTHORITY (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Members having assembled in chamber: but it is more significant this time because it involves stone from a national park. Motion agreed to by absolute majority. The Grampians National Park, which this bill Read third time. proposes to turn into a quarry, is one of our greatest treasures. I refer to the Land Conservation Council Remaining stages recommendations in May 1982 which describe the national park: Passed remaining stages. The combination of spectacular scenery, diverse and PARLIAMENT HOUSE COMPLETION Significant flora and fauna and unique archaeological AUTHORITY (AMENDMENT) BILL sites included in this park have long caused the Grampians to be regarded throughout Australia as an Second reading area of the highest conservation significance.

Debate resumed from 14 November; motion of The recommendations refer to the flora and fauna: Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and Local Government). ... containing as they do about one-third of the state's indigenous flora, the Grampians have been described Ms GARBUTI' (Bundoora) - The opposition is as a floral wonderland. It has over 1000 species of strongly opposed to the bill. It is an appalling native plants recorded there, 20 are endemic to the area measure which sets a bad precedent for quarrying in and 185 species are either rare or of disjunct national parks. The bill is about the completion of distribution. Parliament House - and we have no argument that Parliament House needs to be completed. Although It refers to the brilliant spring displays of it is a valued historic building and needs to be wildflowers, and I am sure many members have protected we need more space and the building is visited the Grampians in spring and admired their not up to date. However, the question before us spectacular exhibition. It looks like a garden in parts. today is whether we need to take stone from the I have been there on many occasions. To me the best former Heatherlie quarry in the Grampians National wildflower displays are in the northern parts of the Park. I certainly do not believe we need to do that. Grampians, especially the area around Heatherlie quarry. A range of sandstone has been used in Parliament House. If one walks around the building one sees The quarry is also important for historic reasons that at least three different sorts of sandstone have because many of our public and private buildings been used. The front or western facade was made have been made from its stone. I shall mention a from sandstone from the historic Heatherlie quarry few - the GPO, the Town Hall, the Museum, the but other sections of Parliament House were made public library, the Regent Theatre and the Supreme from different sorts of stone from Bacchus Marsh, Court. In Stawell, the closest town to the quarry, the predominantly one called Darley stone, which was courthouse and many churches were built from compared with stone from Tasmania. However, stone quarried from Heatherlie. However, because Bacchus Marsh stone was used in the Treasury Heatherlie has not been quarried for many years it building just across the way and it looks similar to has become a historic site. A range of stone cottages, the stone used for Parliament House. tramlines, chimneys and a few other historic objects remain and they have been restored by local At the time these historic buildings were built a volunteers. The area is listed with the Historic large range of stone was used. It is a bit like history Buildings Council and the National Trust of repeating itself when it comes to arguing about Australia. It has been listed in the Grampians which sandstone should be used in Parliament National Park Management Plan as having top House. In 1859 it was called the battle of the stones historic value in the whole of the park. when it came to the library of Parliament House. In fact a royal commission was held to inquire into When I was in Stawelllast Easter the local paper, the which stone should be used on the western facade. It Stawell Times-News, ran an article about what was on concluded that the Heatherlie stone should be used. in the Grampians during Easter. Lo and behold, the In 1996 we are having another battle of the stones, highlight was the historic Heatherlie walk: PARLIAMENT HOUSE COMPLETION AUTHORITY (AMENDMENT) BILL

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An historic walk to Heatherlie in the Grampians proposal has not been considered. The management National Park will be a highlight of the Easter What's of the national park has not been advised of the On program. change, and the same is true of the National Parks Advisory Council, which should be consulted under It then mentioned two walks to Heatherlie. So that the National Parks Act. The advisory committee has historic site in the Grampians National Park is one of been talking about a range of other issues. I will the state's treasures. I refer to the Land Conservation again quote from the Stawell Times-News: Council report which gives its reasons for recommending a national park in the Grampians: The advisory committee looked at rock climbing, deer management, opportunities for mountain bike riding, Indeed the Grampians National Park could perhaps be road and track management and commercial tour the single most important botanical reserve in Victoria. operators.

The report mentions not just the flora and fauna but It has examined a number of issues, but certainly not also the rock paintings of Aboriginal origin, the this one, which has been suddenly unveiled by the recreational possibilities and the other features that government. The bill is to be pushed through during make this a unique national park. However, the bill the last week of the sittings, just in case, we are will ignore all that and will allow the taking of stone told - although I doubt that. The government from the quarry - not just some stone, but many seems hell-bent on using the Heatherlie rock, no cubic metres of it - which will no doubt involve matter what, even though there are other blasting, road construction, the use of heavy alternatives available. earthmoving equipment and so on. We have had correspondence from a quarry The specious argument advanced by the operator, Mr Harry Behncke, who has a working government is that quarrying has been taking place quarry at Dunkeld and a stoneworks at Penshurst, and has been recommended by the Land which is in the Southern Grampians but outside the Conservation Council. The removal of fallen stone, national park. Mr Behncke has written to the stone that has already been quarried but is lying on Premier, ministers and local members, asking for an the ground, has been allowed for a few years. For assessment of his stone. He was here today and was example, that stone has been removed in small able to compare his stone with that on the western quantities to renovate historic buildings. The Regent facade of Parliament House. His stone, which is very Theatre, which is staging Sunset Boulevard, which we strong, is identical in colour and could be used. are all enjoying, was restored using stone removed from the Heatherlie quarry. The amount of stone Despite letters going back to August this year, used for the restoration work is not the same as the Mr Behncke has had no direct contact with members amount being talked about for the construction of of the authority. That is despite a letter from the the new wing of Parliament House. The stone for the Chairman of the Parliament House Completion Regent Theatre was taken from stone that had AuthOrity, Mr Bill Baxter, stating: already been quarried but had fallen on the ground. I intend to visit the original quarry near Stawelllater The recommendation the National Parks Service this year. Perhaps I could call at the Penshurst works at made concerning the application to have the that time. Heatherlie quarry put on the Historic Buildings Council register says in part: He would have been very welcome, but he is yet to call. Mr Behncke has been approached by a Draft management plan for Grampians National Park consultant who said, 'If you put up the money to do stipulates that the lease will not be renewed, but that some core drilling, we might consider what you loose stones may be removed for repairs to the have got', I would appreciate it if the Premier would restoration of buildings in which the same stone has clarify whether that will be the government's been used. approach to every alternative piece of quarry material the authority intends looking at. Will the That is a different approach altogether from quarry operators have to pay their own costs, which quarrying for stone for a whole new wing of could be anything up to $10 OOO? What is happening Parliament House. The Grampians National Park at Heatherlie quarry? Who is examining the management plan is being withdrawn, and a new situation, and who is paying the cost? When will management plan will be issued. However, this core drilling be done at the quarry? I bet the PARLIAMENT HOUSE COMPLETION AUTHORITY (AMENDMENT) BILL

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National Parks Service is not doing that, even that mining is kept out of. We have had a bipartisan though the authority is prepared to. It seems that policy on that since about 1989. alternative is not being investigated properly. I was interested then to get some information from Mr Kennett - I am leaving at 6.30 and I won't be the Tasmanian estimates committee discussion on back tonight. national parks. In a very clear statement, the Tasmanian Minister for the Environment, Mr Peter Ms GARBUlT - I will sit down well before you Hodgman, states he would not want to mine in leave, Mr Premier, so you can answer that question. national parks: Mr Behncke has received a letter promising him a visit. But there has been no visit and no formal reply, Can we resolve that there is no policy to mine in except from the consultants saying that if he pays for national parks? In regard to the policy of exploration, it, they will have a look at it. Mr Behncke tells me he my understanding is that I do have discretion and it has already supplied stone to Parliament House for would be one that I would be very restricted in using. the repair of the library, so somebody here knows about its quality and its colour. He was saying he would even hesitate to allow exploration for mining purposes in national parks - I have read through some clippings in the library, and he certainly does not support mining in national and I thank the library staff for the work they have parks. done in finding some very old references. The Royal Commission on Parliament Buildings of 1886 listed. That is in Tasmania, which by coincidence happens the cost of the external masonry of the library and to be dealing with this issue at the same time. It Parliament House and refers to Mount Sturgeon would be a disaster to open up Heatherlie quarry, freestone. Mount Sturgeon is at the southern end of which is in a national park, to look for sandstone for the Grampians, nowhere near the Heatherlie quarry our extensions. This building already has sandstone but very close to Mr Behncke's quarry. He has had of three or four different types and colour. What is the lease of the quarry for only a short time, but the the government seeking to match it with when it quarry goes back many years. It is quite likely that says it is seeking the identical sandstone - the stone that is a reference to the stone from his quarry, in at the front, the stone at the back, the stone that has which case it was used in the original buildings. been patched up around the building or the stone on Despite that, the government does not appear to be the verandah? The sandstone is already of different at all interested in an alternative source outside the colours; there is no need to seek a particular colour national park which would leave the park from a particular quarry. I was informed today that undisturbed. It could use the stone from Dunkeld the sandstone in Heatherlie quarry has changed. It for the new extension. has been 100 years since this building was built from Heatherlie quarry sandstone. We do not need to go The side benefit of that, of course, would be that a back there. If we do, we will find that the stone has new industry would be developed for Victoria. aged and weathered. and changed colour in any case. Currently, we do not have a sandstone industry. We import most of it from interstate. A contract of the The priority should be to reassert the conservation size we are talking about here would allow the values of national parks. The priority should not be establishment of a whole new industry. Mr Behncke to finish off one side of Parliament House with a informs me that depending on how fast the work stone that mayor may not be similar to one of the had to be done, 50 new jobs could be created in an different types of stone used in the past. The priority area where jobs are hard to come by, which would should not be to pass this bill, which will override help establish the industry for a long time to come. the National Parks Act. This bill will set an appalling and absolutely unnecessary precedent. As I said, The government should be looking for alternatives, many different colours of sandstone have already but I do not believe it is serious about doing so. I been used for this building. Alternatives are have a suspicion that the government is determined available, and the government should look for those to use the original sandstone, even though that alternatives and not mine the quarry in a national means creating the appalling precedent of opening park. up a national park for quarrying, with all that that entails. It is not a view that is shared around the Ms GILLElT (Werribee) - I participate in this country. National parks have been seen as places debate to support my colleague the honourable member for Bundoora and also as a member of the PARLIAMENT HOUSE COMPLETION AUTHORITY (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Parliament House Completion Authority. Along is not warranted and that we are only trying to with the Honourable Caroline Hogg in the other feather our own nest. place I represent the Labor Party on the all-party authority charged with the responsibility of It is not only politicians who work in this place; a completing Parliament House. range of public servants also work here, and this is the place where politicians meet with members of An important element of the brief of the authority is the public as we go about our business while the the achievement of two outcomes: the completion of house is sitting. These facilities are substantially a fine monument and a building of historic substandard; they are in many cases a health hazard importance for the people of Victoria; and, most and they are not conducive to clear thinking and importantly, the creation of a productive and good work. efficient working environment. This is my first term in office and the working environment at my I appreciate the work the members of the authority previous employment was not particularly have done to date, and I trust they will continue to salubrious. However, when I came to this place I see this project through. I take on board the suffered a shock to the system, and that shock comments of the honourable members for Bundoora continues to reverberate throughout my system. I do and Werribee, but this legislation is being passed in not think I am stretching the point by saying that the the event the quarry needs to be reopened. The working conditions in this building are far less than honourable member for Bundoora indicated that she the community would expect for people who work has suspicions that the government is committed to the way we do. By and large, all members of opening the quarry regardless, and that is the Parliament are hardworking and diligent and do normal approach one would expect from an their best to represent the views of their opposition member. However, it is a bit constituencies. disappointing when there is a fundamentally bipartisan approach to this project and to The work of the authority is made most difficult completing the building this time. because of the short time frame available for completion of this enormous project. Nonetheless, As has been explained to the honourable member for we apply ourselves diligently to that work, and all Bundoora and the members of the authority, this has gone well so far. However, it must be asked at legislation is being passed in case the tests currently what price do we complete a monument and at what being carried out on other potential stone do not price do we create for ourselves an efficient and prove to be satisfactory. We would like to use stone productive working environment? I suggest the that is similar in colour to that which has been used price is far too high if it involves quarrying in a in the main construction of the building and it is also national park. The standard of Victoria's national important to use stone which is durable in the long parks are second to none, and that has happened by term rather stone that literally falls apart after virtue of the diligence and hard work of ISO years, as we are seeing now with the renovation governments of both political persuasions. It would work currently being carried out on many of our be a pity if, in completing a fine monument and buildings. Unfortunately, with acid rain, creating a productive and efficient working environmental problems and carbon monoxide, I environment, we destroyed something that can expect that within another 100 years we will have to never be repaired. take off another couple of centimetres to keep the buildings as they were originally intended. I am pleased and proud to continue with the work I am doing as part of the Parliament House This legislation does not have a sinister intent. It Completion Authority, but we should be very results from a recommendation of the Parliament mindful of what we might be destroying in seeking House Completion Authority, which is why I find to build a fine monument. the comments of the honourable member for Werribee so interesting. She knows the origins of the Mr KENNETI (Premier) - I thank members for bill and she knows the authority has requested the their contributions. 1bis project is 140 years overdue. government to pass it. If there is another option, that It is something many governments have tried to will be taken up, but it is wrong to argue, as the complete in the interests of members of Parliament honourable member for Bundoora did, that we will and, as is often the case, politicians give in to the mine the Grampians National Park. If the worst bleatings of the press or others that such expenditure comes to pass, we will have to reopen a quarry within that large national park, and that will be done PARLIAMENT HOUSE COMPLETION AUTHORITY (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1641 for very good reason. We will have to wait and see work. If there is not bipartisan support the project whether that will be required; I hope it will not be. will be cancelled. If there is a move by the union However, we need to make sure that all precautions movement to hold this building to ransom, I am are taken. I am not convinced yet that this project sorry, but those who would have been employed on will go ahead. it and offered security through its redevelopment will not have that opportunity to be so employed. I am disappointed the Labor Party will call for a division on this bill. The honourable member for This project is, as I say, 100 years overdue. It can Werribee, and I am sure also the honourable only proceed on the basis of a bipartisan approach. If member for Bundoora, understands that this that bipartisan approach is going to finish now, so legislation is the result of a request from the will the redevelopment of the building. The matter is authority, which is an all-party committee. It is not obviously in the hands of the Parliament. as though members of that committee are taking different views. They are all in agreement, they are House divided on motion: working well together and they understand both the time frames and the risks involved in not finding the Ayes, 48 actual stone. If there is not going to be bipartisan Ashley,Mr McGrath, Mr w.o. support for this legislation and the ongoing work I Brown,Mr McLellan, Mr do not intend to proceed with the project at all. Burke, Ms (Teller) McNamara, Mr Clark,Mr Maughan,Mr There is another thing that is at risk. I refer to the Coleman,Mr Napthine, Or claim that was made when I was overseas - I have Cooper,Mr Paterson, Mr not checked on it, but I will tomorrow - and that is Dean, Or Perrin,Mr that the trade union movement is, for reasons not Dixon,Mr Perton,Mr related to this bill, going to put a ban on the Doyle,Mr Peulich,Mrs renovation work. I do not think any member of Elder,Mr Phillips, Mr Parliament would want to see this graceful old Elliott,Mrs Reynolds, Mr building, which is admired by so many Finn,Mr Richardson, Mr Australians - and ultimately viewed fondly by Gude,Mr Rowe,Mr many visitors - held up as a building of ridicule. By Henderson, Mrs Ryan,Mr that I mean that we start the construction work and Honeywood, Mr Savage, Mr (Teller) then, for industrial reasons and nothing to do with Jenkins, Mr Shardey, Mrs this site, this site becomes the focal point on which Kennett,Mr Smith, Mr E.R. some wish to withdraw their labour. Kilgour, Mr Smith, Mr I.W. Lean,Mr Spry,Mr It would be quite understandable if labour on the Leigh,Mr Thompson, Mr building was withdrawn for safety reasons, but Lupton,Mr Traynor,Mr unless we can get an assurance that the people who McArthur, Mr Treasure, Mr work on this building will work with the authority, McCall,Ms Wade,Mrs and all who work in it, to complete this building McGill,Mrs Wells,Mr quickly in the public interest the work on this building will not proceed. This is not an idle threat. I Noes, 28 do not want to have the grand old lady of Australian Andrianopoulos, Mr Hamilton, Mr parliaments - with the most beautiful gothic Baker,Mr Hulls,Mr chamber in the Westminster system, the upper Batchelor, Mr Kosky, Ms house chamber - used as a bargaining chip for Bracks,Mr Langdon,Mr some industrial campaign that we cannot even Brumby,Mr Leighton, Mr envisage. Cameron, Mr (Teller) Lim, Mr (Teller) CampbelI,Ms Loney,Mr This project has to date been supported by all sides Carli,Mr Maddigan, Mrs of Parliament. The work is recognised as being long Cole,Mr Micallef, Mr overdue. Those who are currently in opposition Cunningham, Mr Mildenhall, Mr know only too well what we went through when we Dollis,Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr were in opposition for 10 years. The government Garbutt, Ms Seitz, Mr rooms are substandard; the opposition rooms are Gillett, Ms Thwaites, Mr even worse. They are just not conducive to good Haermeyer, Mr WiIson,Mrs CASINO (MANAGEMENT AGREEMENT) (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Motion agreed to. the dummy, and decides - without consultation - that he no longer wants to proceed with it. Read second time. Mr Maclellan - On a point of order, Mr Deputy Remaining stages Speaker, I understand you made a ruling that the honourable member should stick to the contents of Passed remaining stages. the bill. In his enthusiasm to deal with a matter which was debated earlier today the honourable Sitting suspended 6.32 p.m. until 8.03 p.m. member has again strayed off into another area. I suggest that you, Sir, again remind him to stick to CASINO (MANAGEMENT the contents of the bill, and if you do not succeed in AGREEMENT) (AMENDMENT) BILL curbing his enthusiasm to debate other issues you should no longer hear him. Second reading The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I uphold the Debate resumed from 14 November; motion of point of order raised by the Minister for Planning Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and Local and Local Government and I ask the honourable Government). member for Niddrie to continue his debate on the bill. The Chair will have to uphold points of order Mr HULLS (Niddrie) - It is hard to know on this issue to the extent that they may become whether I should also spit the dummy with this repetitious and in that case the Chair would then legislation! From time to time the opposition has have to refuse to hear the honourable member for quite appropriately opposed legislation relating to Niddrie. The Chair would prefer not to be put in the casino, but it is fascinating to realise that each that position. time such legislation has been opposed the extensions to the casino have gone ahead. That is in Mr HULLS - As with previous legislation that bitter contrast to what has occurred today. In has come before this house the members of the relation to other legislation before the house today, opposition have a view on it. However, if we were to the Premier went troppo, lost his marbles, spat the use the precedent of what occurred earlier today, dummy and ran outside the house to a press perhaps those views would change based on the conference, where he said, 'Guess what? I've had a mood and on whether we have had a bad day and shocking day. I couldn't answer any of their are prepared to spit the dummy. Based on the questions. I need to change the agenda, and as a precedent set by the Premier earlier tonight, if we result the completion of Parliament House will no think we have had a bad day our views may change longer go ahead'. with the wind. Let's not kid each other. We all witnessed today the most extraordinary The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The dummy-spitting exercise we have ever seen in this honourable member for Niddrie will assist the Chair house. if he contains his enthusiasm to stray and directs his comments to the bill before the house. Otherwise the As the Minister for Planning and Local Government, Chair will be confronted with points of order the who is at the table, knows, this bill seeks to ratify a Chair will have to uphold. variation to the management agreement for the Melbourne casino. I have not the slightest doubt, Mr HULLS - The Casino (Management Mr Deputy Speaker, that you will not see the same Agreement) (Amendment) Bill deals with a further pathetic performance, the same childish, change to the casino design covered by the Casino spit-the-dummy and lose-your-marbles performance (Management Agreement) Act. From time to time that we saw earlier today on this piece of legislation. the casino has sought to extend the size of its premises by seeking to change the act. Sometimes The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I think I have the opposition has supported those changes and a reputation for being reasonably easy going in the sometimes it has opposed them. The Premier does chair. However, I have an elastic band inside me not lose his marbles and spit the dummy over the which from time to time winds up. I advise the casino. However, when it comes to the Parliament house, and particularly the honourable member for House Completion Authority (Amendment) Bill, Niddrie, that I can hear it twanging. I suggest he has which the opposition opposes on environmental twisted it about as far as he should. He should now grounds, the Premier runs outside the house, spits debate the bill. CASINO (MANAGEMENT AGREEMENT) (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Mr HULLS - I would hate to see it break! same level as a planned walkway spanning Whiteman Street connecting the car park to the main As the minister would be aware, each time changes casino entertainment complex. I am pleased, as I am are made to the design of the casino complex the sure you are, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the casino management agreement has to be amended. supposedly independent Victorian Casino and This is the fourth deed of variation of that Gaming Authority knocked back that application. legislation. The bill provides for a number of minor changes to the design. I would be very interested to I shall be interested to learn whether the minister is ascertain from the minister whether further design aware of any other application to extend the car park changes are in the pipeline. The minister kindly said, or to extend the gaming complex into the car park, 'Not at this stage'. However, I am sure if there are or whether he has information about what will changes, details of them will be available in the happen to the temporary casino when the parliamentary library. permanent casino opens.

As I said, this bill provides for a number of minor We have all heard rumours that the Crown Casino is changes to the design. In the original design Crown pushing hard to ensure that the temporary casino Casino was obliged to undertake a certain amount of remains open and becomes an adjunct to the offsite works, which included paving work that permanent casino. Former ministers have given linked Clarendon Street to the yet-to-be-designed assurances to this house that will not be the case. facilities as well as paving and other works on the The Premier has also said that under no Queensbridge Square site. I understand the minister circumstances will the temporary casino remain asked Crown whether it could identify any open once the permanent casino opens. It is superfluous design changes in light of the changed interesting to speak to people in the casino industry circumstances since the original offsite works were about the size of the casino, as I am sure the minister proposed about four years ago. I guess that was a has done. It is to be enormous. I was fortunate sensible request by the minister. Crown said that it enough to be in the United States a few months ago could eliminate a small amount of work that would and spoke to casino operators about the Hudson allow future developments that would not be seen Conway Crown Casino in Melbourne. Not being an as part of the Crown Casino site. expert in the field, I tried to get some feel for how big the Melbourne casino will be compared with According to the second-reading speech the cost of other casinos around the world. I was in Atlantic these works has been estimated at $469 750. I City, of all places, and was shown around a few understand that will be paid by Crown Casino to the casinos there. When I visited one casino which was state government and that money will be held in of a substantial size I asked how big it was and was trust pending any future development that may take advised that it was a pretty damn big casino. I was place in and around that area. I understand that told there were 60 gaming tables and a certain money will be used, if it is needed, to assist in the number of gaming machines. I was then asked how future development of the site. As a result the many gaming tables the Melbourne casino has. taxpayers of Victoria will not miss out on any When I said it had 350 gaming tables, the gentleman moneys that would have been invested by Crown to with whom I was speaking nearly fell off his chair. develop offsite works, and the minister has taken the He said, 'My God, what sort of goddamned show appropriate steps to ensure that Crown pays the have you got running in Melbourne?'. He could not money. believe that a monopoly casino in a city the size of Melbourne would have 350 gaming tables. In relation to offsite works, including works in and around the car park area, I noticed with interest an Despite what some people think of the Minister for article that appeared in the Herald Sun on Planning and Local Government, he has always been 22 November written by Greg Thorn, the a great promoter of the cultural side of Melbourne. I newspaper's casino and gaming reporter, referring am sure that, deep down, he has grave concerns to a plan to set up a car park casino at the Southbank about the effects that a casino of this size will have project site. The article said that the project had run on the cultural life of the city of Melbourne. As out of luck, and that the Victorian Casino and shadow gaming minister I have real concerns and Gaming Authority had confirmed that it had have expressed them each time the government has rejected an application by Crown to set up a attempted to expand the casino. gambling area in the multilevel car park in Clarke Street. The casino would have been situated on the CASINO (MANAGEMENT AGREEMENT) (AMENDMENT) BILL

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This legislation is not about expanding the casino. Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and Again it is difficult not to hark back to what Local Government) - I thank the honourable happened earlier. However, unlike the Premier member for Niddrie for his indication that the earlier this evening, the opposition will not spit the opposition will not oppose the bill. I believe it is a dummy on this issue and will not oppose the sensible measure, and I can confirm to the legislation. We believe it is appropriate for the honourable member as both the planning and minister to extract the sum of $460 000 from Crown building control officer for the casino project that Casino to be held in trust. I would be interested to there have been no requests for any further know how that figure was arrived at. I am sure the variations of the project that would require any minister has the appropriate calculations pursuant change to the casino management agreement. to the legislation to present to the house. However, Indeed, at this stage since the introduction of the bill we will not oppose the bill. there have been no requests for variations at all, not even building variations. Apart from anything else, if precedents were relied on, particularly the precedent we witnessed earlier, The honourable member is quite right, there was if the Premier was fair dinkum in his outrage earlier some discussion about the possibility of having today and we opposed this legislation, he would gaming on the south side of Whiteman Street. A decide to tear down the casino. Earlier we opposed point he did not make, but could have, was that that the legislation concerned with the completion of would have meant authorising gaming on a freehold Parliament House. We are not opposed to the property owned by Crown, so it would not have completion of Parliament House but we are been restricted to being on a freehold property vehemently opposed to mining in a national park, owned by the state. I think the Victorian Casino and where it was proposed that the stone should come Gaming Authority was quite right, taking account of from, so the Premier decided, 'Suffer. It ain't going that and other issues, to not authorise the change. ahead'. If he were true to his word and we opposed Therefore that change was not proceeded with and this bill, would he come into the house and say, 'If is not reflected in the bill. you oppose this bill the casino ain't going ahead.'? I don't think so. Unfortunately that shows the The bill requires the payment of the appropriate priorities of this government. Damn the national amount of money. I do not have the details on how it parks! Who gives a stuff about the national parks? was calculated, but I believe it was calculated by But if you touch the casino, you're in big trouble. accountants on the basis of the net present value of Unfortunately, as I said, it shows the skewed the works excused in relation to Queens Bridge priorities of the government. Square. One of the reasons for that is that with the completion of the Oty Link the future role of In conclusion, the community needs to keep a Southbank Boulevard coming into Queens Bridge careful watch on what is happening with the casino. Square will be examined in relation to traffic We cannot, as has happened in the past, continue management and it seemed inappropriate to have simply to agree to any changes in design that Crown brick paving put across Queens Bridge Square only wants. The community, but more particularly the perhaps to have it ripped up or altered at a later government, cannot continue to allow the casino to stage. Therefore the money will be held by the state develop almost unfettered. The government has to as a stakeholder, in effect, for the appropriate works get into the business of regulating the industry. It for the proper completion of Queens Bridge Square cannot continue to be a promoter of the industry. when other works in the area have been completed. I do not know how many times I have said that - probably hundreds of times - but it is true. Although it has not reached an official stage, there has been plenty of press report regarding the We owe it to all Victorians to ensure that we as the Australia Post site on Queens Bridge Square, which Parliament and the coalition as the government is significant. In the event that Australia Post make sure that we are regulating the gaming proceeds with its proposal for a major Australian industry and not promoting it. Because the bill is not and Victorian headquarters on that site, Queens actually expanding the casino, because the minister Bridge Square will again be under works - so to has taken sensible steps to ensure that the money speak - rather than it being appropriate to do the that would have been spent on developing the area final presentation of that square as a public area. will be paid into trust, we certainly do not oppose the bill. So there have been some changes to the casino under the various amendments to the agreement. Each of PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1645 them, of course, has been disclosed in Parliament. present site once Crown is authorised to commence I am pleased to confirm to the honourable member gaming at the new site. that if I become aware of any significant changes that might lead to further management agreement Motion agreed to. changes, they will of course be brought to Parliament, on behalf of my colleague the Minister Read second time. for Gaming in another place. Remaining stages As to the minute detail of the building and what is within it, there has been a reduction in the extent of Passed remaining stages. the building as a result of recent decisions and a clarification of the fact that the Southbank PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT promenade, if I can put it that way, running along (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL the front of the building between it and the river will remain less cluttered than it may have become had Government amendments circulated by the casino been able to achieve all it wished to Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and Local achieve in the presentation of its building to that Government) pursuant to sessional orders. area. Second reading But it remains a major project and it remains a very large project. Although I may have been guilty of Debate resumed from 14 November; motion of misdescribing it as a palace of popular culture, it is a Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and Local significant project for those who are able to game Government). there. I regard myself as being disqualified from gaming at the casino because I can imagine what The DEPUfY SPEAKER - Order! I am of the people would conclude if they saw me, as the opinion that the second and third reading of the bill planning and building control officer, slip a coin into is required to be carried by an absolute majority. some machine only to be rewarded with a large outpOuring of money. Mr DOLLIS (Richmond) - The Victorian government has almost completed a total reshaping Mr Hulls - We wouldn't. of the Victorian land use planning system. This will have far-reaching effects on every person in this Mr MACLELLAN - You wouldn't need to, state. The new system will be dominated by new because others would do it for you. Rather than have statewide planning provisions known as the Victoria the problem, I do not game there while I have the Planning Provisions - or VPPs as they will be responsibility of being planning and building referred to for the remainder of this debate - which control officer, and I do not think it appropriate that the bill will introduce into all Victorian planning I should. schemes.

Nevertheless on my visits there - and I have had The government, through the VPPs and four visits to the temporary casino - I have seen accompanying legislation is taking complete control that it attracts a large clientele; it is always busy. At of the content of local planning schemes and all 2.30 on a Wednesday afternoon I went through both planning processes. It is finally destroying the floors of the casino and I observed that there were current planning system with its strong tradition of five seats at the gaming tables that were unoccupied. local participation and solutions and its checks and It is extraordinary to see the amount of support it balances on ministerial power. When added to other has attracted, including the number of overseas major amendments made to the Planning and visitors. Environment Act since 1993 the concentration of power in the hands of the planning minister and the The government has previously made it clear that it extent of centralising authority is unprecedented in was not its intention that the temporary casino this country. would continue as a casino, but I am sure other uses will be assigned to that building in due course. I do The government proposes to impose a series of not think at this stage any proposal is being uniform planning provisions on to all communities seriously considered for gaming to continue at the regardless of local characteristics. The provisions will be the dominating force in our planning and in PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1646 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 all planning schemes. There will be a centrally prohibited uses in zones. The independence and imposed set of policies, zones and land use tables powers of local government as a planning authority which will ensure that the government dictates on will be further eroded. Effectively the minister will the way land will be developed and used uniformly have them on a leash. The new system will be top across the state. town planning driven by the minister's and the government's agenda. There is no separation The minister's direction to planning authorities on between the powers of the minister for planning and the form and content of planning schemes makes the minister for local government. In fact we have clear this state of government control of planning the rather ridiculous situation where the minister for schemes. Oause 7 in particular states that only zones local government and the minister for planning is or overlay clauses from the VPPs are to be included one and the same person. in planning schemes. Oause 9 states that any schedule containing a table of uses must be The minister can intimidate and threaten to sack any consistent with state planning policy and the table of councils that do not follow directions in a planning uses for zones in the VPPs. matter. A statutory obligation is being imposed on councils to prepare strategic statements but there is On the other hand the guidelines for the no similar obligation at the state level. Of course the construction of new format planning schemes states system of ad hoc amendments is to be there will be no ability for local councils to vary the institutionalised with the minister to be given new standard zones contained in the VPPs or to powers to grant, amend and reject permits. introduce local zones. Any schedules to zones are severely limited to specific matters prescribed in the The government is pushing the bill through at a time minister's direction. There is no ability to include in when commissioners are still in place in most parts planning schemes particular provisions which are of Victoria. Municipal strategic statements affecting not in the VPPs. Any amendments to the VPPs will the long-term future development of municipalities automatically change planning schemes and the will be prepared to a large extent in their last days of minister is the only person who can change the VPPs. power. The community and the planning profession have still not caught up with all the other changes I shall now deal with context. Planning has enjoyed and reviews that have taken place over the past few substantial agreement on a bipartisan basis for the years. We are talking about some of the most past 30 years in this state. Although there have been fundamental changes that we have seen to our minor differences about the emphasis or the powers planning system and the bill is bringing in planning of the minister there has nevertheless been general prOvisions that are incredibly complex and agreement and overall support for the planning complicated to deal with. The minister is attempting system. In fact, this is a rather unusual situation. We to introduce these changes when local government find ourselves strongly disagreeing with the minister in particular and the planning profession have not because we believe planning reforms in this state come to terms with or have been able to should enjoy certainty in relation to governments comprehend and deal with the significant changes and opposition having confidence in the way the that have already taken place in this state. state will develop. In consulting on the bill and the associated Victoria For the most part, there has also been community Planning Provisions it became immediately obvious confidence in the planning system. There has been that many in the planning profession in local security in property rights and the enjoyment of government and in the community were not aware those rights and amenities. I suggest that in the past of the bill or have not seen the detail. The same was four years that confidence to a large extent has been true of the VPPs. In fact, the VPPs surprised people. undermined and will evaporate with the At best, people's understanding of the reforms and implementation of the bill and the associated their implications was partial. It takes time to digest Victoria Planning Provisions. the whole proposal. The legislation is not insignificant and the VPPs amount to between The bill marks the end of bipartisan support, and it 200 and 300 pages, a considerable document by any does so for reasons I shall state for the record. comparison. Notification rights and third-party appeal rights will be significantly reduced. Residential amenity and I suggest to the minister that this is not the way to environmental protection will be under threat as a bring about reform. It is neither good management result of increased discretionary uses and fewer nor accountable government. Foreshadowing the PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1647 reform in the minister's annual August statement is organisations and the community about the not the same as proper consultation. Although all ramifications of the bill and gone through a formal would accept the Victorian planning system needed exhibition and panel process in relation to the Victoria some changes, the implications of the reform agenda Planning Provisions which fonn a major part of the proposed have not been the subject of the required proposed planning refonns, thereby allowing citizens public sautiny. It is unacceptable that the new VPPs the opportunity to express their concern about any could be put into place without placing their content detrimental impacts it may have on the future use and on public exhibition and subjecting them to proper development of land in this state. planning processes including that of a separate panel report. The minister kindly gave me a nod, The opposition has strongly disagreed with the which says that application of any VPPs would be minister in the past, but he is known for the sent to a single panel. So for the sake of clarifying sharpness of his mind and tongue and his ability to that point I accept his undertaking. defend his reforms convincingly. It is unusual for the minister to introduce a complicated reform bill As I said in my opening remarks, the opposition has such as this, which will in many ways destroy a number of concerns about both the bill and the planning as we have known it. VPPs. That concern, coupled with the mixed feedback it has received in the time constraints Mr Richardson interjected. available, warrants the government's holding over the bill until the autumn session. This will allow the Mr DOLLIS - We are not bearing gifts; we are government an opportunity to properly consult with making appropriate comments on a reform that will members of the community, who after all may be eventually destroy planning as we have known it. significantly affected by the proposed changes. The The member for Forest Hill should understand that implications of a complete rezoning of the state and the biggest investment a person makes in his or her the institution of a new set of planning schemes lifetime is the purchase of the family home. It is the warrant a more considered approach. The government's job to protect those investments if government's actions will only heighten anxiety, but people are to have some security in their lives. If the by then the legislation and the new system will be member for Forest Hill had read through the 200 or firmly in place. 300 pages of the Victoria Planning Provisions, he would know how complicated they are. You can get There is a perception in the community that the lost trying to work through the myriad complexities. Kennett government does not value planners and the contributions they and members of the Mr Maclellan interjected. community make to outcomes that improve our urban environment as a place to live, work and Mr DOLLIS - The minister asks us to trust him. recreate. The pace with which the government is I will come to the question of trust. If the pushing through the legislation and putting the government is to protect the single most important Victoria Planning Provisions into place is investment the majority of Victorians will ever symptomatic of what often happens in Parliament, make, the planning system must have some given the Premier's contempt for open and certainty, especially if it is to represent the wishes accountable government. However, it is unusual for and aspirations of the wider community. The the minister not to subject his reforms to open and reasoned amendment gives the government an accountable processes. We may disagree with the opportunity to allow the bill to lie over for three or minister on many matters, but he has been willing to four months for debate and discussion. If that argue his ideas. occurs, we will be better placed to deal what is a complex issue in the next parliamentary session. This reform is unusual, given the way in which it has come before Parliament. It is also unusual The majority of people the opposition consulted because the minister has not given either the examined a bill that contained 31 pages. They planning profession or the community the chance to considered the amendments and compared them deal with these matters. For those reasons I move: with the old act. But when they considered the final draft of the Victoria Planning Provisions, which was That all the words after 'That' be omitted with the view released on 13 November, they began to lose of inserting in place thereof the words 'this house themselves in the myriad frameworks and planning refuses to read this bill a second time until the suggestions under which the power of the minister government has had further consultation with relevant will become absolute. That is why it is necessary to PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1648 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 compare what is being proposed with the existing Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works, were system. removed from that organisation and decentralised through the municipal councils. For the first time, The changes represent a complete reversal of the separate local planning schemes were established for current system with its emphasis on local every municipality and they were administered participation, control and proper processes. At the locally. moment the statewide provisions are policy driven and are a relatively minor element of the overall Over time, local variations to the former MMPSs planning schemes. The new system will talk down were included in each Melbourne metropolitan planning, which is typical of a government that scheme. The state government retained the right and tolerates no views other than its own. The the power to require the inclusion of regional government is determined to impose its will and to policies such as urban consolidation policy in the advantage the few at the expense of the many. That greater Melbourne area or statewide policies such as is why I gave the example before of the family home, controls over the removal of native vegetation. There because more than 90 per cent of the people living in was a balance of state, regional and local control, this state require some certainty in their lives - and reflecting the special needs of each level of that certainty comes from the planning legislation government. There was also a strong emphasis on that we now have. environmental protection. The environmental impacts of proposals were required to be considered, The existing planning system was introduced in sometimes above other factors. 1987 by the former Labor government. The Planning and Environment Bill was passed by Parliament In 1991-92 the Labor government moved to extend after considerable consultation with the then the protection of the Victorian environment through opposition. Labor believed that planning reform had the planning schemes by targeting statewide to be driven on a bipartisan basis to ensure that the environmental problems. This is very important to fundamentals remained in place, even with a change understand because it targeted environmental of government. problems through the state sections of planning schemes, in particular through the adoption of The 1987 changes were important because they statewide controls over the removal of native expressed the wishes and aspirations of many vegetation, amendment 516, and over small lot rural people. They were also important because they gave subdivisions, amendment 525; the exhibition of Parliament the ability not only to debate but also to statewide wetlands protection measures; and the offer advice on any alterations to the planning act. In commencement of a program to prevent the 1987 Labor had the support of the then Uberal and subdivision of viable agricultural land into National Party opposition. Together they moved uneconomically sized lots. forward with planning legislation that was considered to be an example for the rest of the Important amendments were created, debated and country. agreed by all political parties in order to protect Victoria for future generations. That was not done The system reinforced the principles of local on a party-political basis; it was done with the involvement in land use planning and the proper support of all political parties in this state. Proper administration of planning schemes. Each planning processes were observed in introducing such scheme could have state, regional and local sections, statewide planning measures into the state sections and policies were gradually developed on a number of planning schemes, including exhibition of of state issues. A number of councils had regional amendments, the appointment of panels and, in the policies, but each local section contained the bulk of case of state section policies, proper consultation. planning schemes, including zones and tables of uses - and that was very important. There were The new system will be introduced through clear limits to ministerial power and constraints on legislation and the Victoria Planning Provisions. The advertised amendments to the planning schemes VPPs will be a complete set of statewide planning being imposed on local communities. There was also prOvisions. I am referring to the document I am a very important requirement that all permits be holding, and honourable members can see how big it issued by local councils. is. They will include a new format for planning schemes and standard terms and definitions, a state The Melbourne metropolitan planning schemes, planning policy framework to replace existing policy which had been developed centrally by the in the state section of planning schemes and new PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1649 standardised zones governing all developments and must be considered but will have less scope under uses. the new VPPs. The government did not hear our concerns regarding Viccode 2, yet within 12 months There will no longer be state, regional and local it was politically forced into a review. The sectional planning schemes; planning schemes will opposition foreshadowed that review when the consist of statewide and local elements. Local legislation came before this house, but it took the councils will have to prepare a new planning government 12 month to realise the folly of its ways. s.cheme for their municipalities, choosing from the That is what I am talking about. Victoria Planning Provisions. It will be a bit like saying to a person, 'Here is your house. You can The implications of the current proposals are far choose what colour to paint it, so long as it is either greater than those of Viccode 2 for residential red, yellow or blue'. That is basically the choice amenity and environmental protection. In provided by the amendment. comparison, the public outcry with regard to Viccode 2 will pale into insignificance. We warn the I turn now to statewide elements of planning government, as we warned it when the Viccode 2 schemes. Planning schemes will consist of the legislation came before this house. The government standard VPPs under the following headings: state may try to shift the focus for the changes onto the planning policy framework, including policies on councils, but this ploy will fail. settlement, environment, hOUSing, economic development, infrastructure and particular uses and I return to the government's rationale. On the issue development; standard zones, including five of consistency, the minister stated in his residential, three industrial, five business, three second-reading speech that there is no justification rural, four public land and five special purpose for retaining different and complex provisions in zones; standard overlay controls, including three each scheme and on the same issue. The minister has environment and landscape, four heritage and built made much of this issue, in particular alleging that form, and 12 land and size management overlays; a metropolitan councils have introduced vastly series of particular and general provisions; and different and complex variations to the residential procedural and definitional sections. zones they inherited from the Melbourne metropolitan planning schemes. I turn now to planning elements of planning schemes. The planning schemes will include a local In fact, most of the variations have been minor. The planning policy framework comprising a municipal minister has greatly exaggerated the impact of local strategic statement and local planning policies. The differences in order to justify the government's government's rationale for this new system is to agenda; in fact, in order to justify his own agenda. It introduce consistency - that is what the minister is is possible to introduce standard statewide policies claiming in introducing this reform at this time of or statutory rules on important issues - as the the year - to bring a strategic planning focus into Labor government did with urban consolidation and planning schemes and to make the planning system the protection of native vegetation, wetlands and more efficient. productive agricultural land - without ripping apart the entire planning system and centralising Let it not be suggested that the opposition is against control in the hands of the minister. introducing greater consistency and a greater focus on strategic planning. This has been the purpose of A greater problem than that of consistency is the our concern about many of the site-specific need for significant improvements in the quality of amendments the minister has approved over the some planning schemes, particularly rural planning past four years, a significant proportion of which schemes. This can best be dealt with by following were exempted from normal notice and exhibition the path set by the former Labor government and requirements. The opposition welcomes greater ensuring that proper standards are incorporated into consistency and emphasis on strategic planning. planning schemes on key issues. I shall give an However, it does not support conformity at the cost example. Some councils have been busily rezoning of maintaining difference. large areas of productive rural land for uneconomic, small lot hobby farms. Before amalgamation, up to It also has concerns about the government's laissez one-third of the area of some councils was faire approach to the use and development of land subdivided into small rural residential lots. The that places profit above all consideration. current Minister for Planning and Local Government Environmental, economic and social implications has been very busy helping to carry out those PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1650 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 subdivisions. It is essential to note that nothing in local government. The irony is that the Kennett the current VPPs will prevent this destructive government is imposing obligations on councils to practice from continuing. We must ensure it does prepare municipal strategic statements but there is not continue. no similar obligation on the state government. This is an issue because while it is generally a positive The previous Labor government squarely faced the step to adopt a more strategic approach, the problem critical issue with regard to planning schemes: the for councils is the context in which they are introduction of statewide and relevant provisions preparing them because there is no state strategic into planning schemes on identified key issues, framework. We must understand that: there is no while respecting due process and the importance of state strategic framework from which to operate. local planning. Of course, it respected administration and control in local areas. Municipal It is also not lost on councils that the minister for government was alive in those days and it used to planning is also the minister for local government control the planning process. We were able to have and that he has more than once publicly threatened standards and uniformity but at the same time we that he will not hesitate to dismiss councils that do allowed residents of municipalities to participate not follow directions and government policy. This is and take part in making the decisions that affected part of the culture of intimidation that has the livability of their cities. This government is going developed in this state when public debate and down the wrong path. criticism and the contesting of ideas have been cowed into submission. Conformity prevails. Most On the issue of strategic focus, the minister is using councils in Victoria are still operating under the the opportunity being created by the VPPs to gut the imposition of commissioners. That is the reality. effect of the most strategic local planning process These VPPs are being introduced while the ever undertaken in this state covering Melbourne's commissioners are still in place, yet the government non-urban green wedges, the Dandenongs and the is pushing through the planning changes with Mornington Peninsula. In late 1992 at a country considerable haste. Under the current time lines meeting of officials of the former Department of municipal strategic statements will largely be Planning the minister outlined the range of strategic drafted by commissioners. Whatever position one planning initiatives he intended to abolish. They may take on the role of the commissioners in included statewide planning controls designed to managing the transition to amalgamated councils, protect wetlands, even though they were exhibited they have absolutely no role and certainly no with the full support of local interest groups, mandate for making decisions on strategies about controls on rural residential subdivisions and native the long-term future development of municipalities. vegetation planning controls. He even planned to Commissioners do not belong to these remove controls on the drainage of some of the municipalities. They have been imposed from above state's most significant wetlands from the planning and they carry out their own wishes and those of the scheme of a particular shire. His hatred of strategic government, not those of the local community. initiatives extended to even the smallest measure in a planning scheme to which he had an aversion. What we are saying is that the commissioners will have an active role in defining and developing the Councils will certainly be given a strategic policy Victoria Planning Provisions, which are part of one and a planning role under the new planning system, of the most complex and complicated reforms to the but it is policy without teeth and without statutory planning system that we have seen. Having spent effect. It is policy that must be consistent with what tens of thousands of dollars, newly elected councils Big Brother says - in this case it is what Big will not be in a position to vary these strategic Minister says. lbis approach is a means of diverting statements significantly due to the timetable the local involvement in planning to vision statements, minister has imposed. This will ensure the outbreak the irrelevancies of fringe issues and the provision of of local political crises that will erupt across information. Councils have been further metropolitan Melbourne and rural Victoria. It has marginalised and kept busy while the real action been estimated that the process of introducing the comes from the minister. new planning schemes will cost as much as $250 000 per municipality, plus the time and staff resources. It must be understood that local government will be This is at a time when they are still experiencing returning next year and one hopes democratic turmoil from amalgamations and are under severe councils will attempt to make decisions, but here we financial strain as a result of the policies of this have the minister taking away the last real power of government. PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1651

The minister is closer to the truth when he speaks of autocratic powers over development in this state. efficiency. The Planning and Environment Act This is a minister who boasts that he approves introduced major efficiencies into the planning 900 planning scheme amendments a year. process such as time limits for councils processing permit applications after calling for additional He takes great pride in this fact. Honourable information. The truth is that the planning system members must understand that this minister has no this government inherited balanced speed and idea of the effect 900 planning scheme amendments efficiency with the democratic rights of all people in would have on the people of Victoria. I suggest there the community. The balanced approach we talked has never been a minister who has been more about and which we introduced in 1987 is what is dismissive of local decision-making processes or being destroyed here. who has interfered so much down to the smallest local detail. This minister takes pride in his ability to This government does not believe in the rights of interfere in specific small local detail. everyone to express views that contradict the government's own version of the truth. There is only A critical aspect of the successful introduction of this one truth for this government, and that is its view of system has been the disempowering of local the world. The real reason for such drastic changes is communities by appointing local government apparent in various government publications. The commissioners. We keep coming the full circle. The government's guideline document for the new Minister for Planning became the Minister for planning scheme states that planning schemes will Planning and Local Government and is responsible become tools for facilitating appropriate for telling newly elected councils the ramifications of development. Similarly, the purpose of the local their rejection of government instructions. At the planning framework is to provide a vision for future same time, municipalities do not have any ability or development. The new zones will allow a wider right to deal with the Minister for Planning and range of uses to be considered in most zones. The Local Government because the same person handles intent is to reduce prohibitions on uses to a the instructions and the complaints. minimum and to prevent the channelling of various developments into suitable specific sites where their The minister is desperate to ram this legislation effects on residents are reduced or eliminated. through Parliament before communities have the ability to regain their voices through elected Instead all zones will be opened up to the widest councillors. By the time there are elected councils possible number of uses, many of them right across the state it will be too late. The new incompatible. This will increase speculation and planning system will effectively destroy the increasingly lead to the undesirable impacts of influence of local government in planning matters, incompatible uses. TItat is what we are doing today. and that is part of a well-thought-out system to The minister should accept the proposition that this centralise power in the hands of the present bill stops here. It does not go any further. Unless we government. allow scrutiny and opportunity for comment we will end up with another mess and we will be coming in I turn to the main aspects of the planning schemes here in the next 12 months attempting to untangle and associated issues. A new format will be the most complicated reform and the biggest mandatory for council planning schemes along with centralisation of power we have ever seen. standard terms and definitions for the state section provisions, which are already approved as There is nothing inherently wrong with mixed use amendment 545. In the list of principles to be zones such as a zone that integrates residential, retail included under the new form, environmental factors and commercial uses around public transport. do not appear. Explicitly, planning schemes are to However, these should be specialised zones linked facilitate appropriate development. Wide discretion to specific outcomes such as increased public for development, not limits to development, must be transport use and low energy use. To open up all employed. That has to be understood, because we zones to the widest possible range of uses can only have the incredible situation of a government advantage the friends of this government at the moving with great haste to introduce such expense of the mass of people in the general complexities before the house adjOurns. Wide community. Ultimately this legislation and the discretion for development, not limits to changes to the planning system are designed to give development, must be employed. all power to the government by giving the Minister for Planning and Local Government virtually PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1652 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

That has serious implications for planning schemes concerns and why we have gone into considerable in areas such as the Yarra Ranges shire and for the detail to tell the government that this is the wrong regional strategy planning. The former Shire of move and to ask it to reconsider. Environmental Sherbrooke planning scheme and the policies organisations have pointed out problems with the associated with Upper Yarra Valley and the planning policy framework without the least notice Dandenong Ranges regional strategy plan, for being taken of their submissions. I will give an example, operated explicitly on the principle of example. Major deficiencies and omissions in the clarifying which land uses could proceed without a state planning policy framework, such as the need to permit, which could proceed with a permit, and control urban and other inappropriate development which were prohibited. Discretion was more limited and the need to protect environmental values of the than the VPPs allow, and that provided certainty for Victorian coast, were pointed out. The weakening of developments and residents, identified planning the current state section policy on the conservation solutions and development opportunities for of native flora and fauna and the protection of native particular sites and protected one of Victoria's most vegetation was also pointed out. sensitive areas. Planning schemes will be unable to prohibit Is it any wonder that the current minister has shown extractive industry within significant sites in a particular preoccupation for the provisions of the non-urban or rural areas. That has the potential to former Sherbrooke planning scheme and the seriously affect areas such as the Dandenong Ranges regional strategy plan? The new approach will seek and Arthur's Seat along with other areas on the to enlarge the number of permitted and as-of-right fringes of Melbourne. Quarrying has been stopped uses and reduce the number of prohibitions. In in such locations for many years because of short, almost any development will either be community outrage. In the Dandenong Ranges, for allowed or be allowed to be considered. example, the Sherbrooke planning scheme prohibits quarrying. All that will change. I turn to the state planning policy framework, which is a set of state government planning policies to The more one digs into this document the more one replace the existing state section policies. There are finds the complexities and complications it 2 statewide policies on settlement; 12 on the introduces. The majority of people who have seen environment, including protection of waterways, the legislation have not had an opportunity to go ground water, catchments, flood plain management, through its 200 to 300 pages and digest the meaning salinity, air quality, noise, soil contamination, of the ministerial amendments. The minister said protection from wildlife, coastal planning, earlier that we should take his word. He said, 'Have conservation of native flora and fauna open space, faith in me'. I say, 'Have faith in what?'. 'This is the heritage and energy efficiency; 4 on housing; 9 on same minister who introduced Viccode 2 and who economic development; 12 on infrastructure and has shown an inability to listen to the concerns 2 on particular uses and development. expressed by the opposition. If we are to return to a bipartisan planning policy this legislation must not Generally the policies are weak on environmental be passed today. protection and strong on promoting development. For example, councils cannot prohibit or even The important environmental and planning policies require approval for mineral exploration. However, that would encourage energy-efficient land use are the policy on flood plain management does not so brief and general that they are useless. The require approval for or prohibit developments on government has failed to adopt national or flood plains, except for emergency facilities, international best practice on this issue and has not although the land subject to inundation overlay used relevant reports from commonwealth allows the introduction of permit control. Even government organisations such as the hazardous chemical waste, dangerous goods, Environmental Law Association or piggeries and feedlots can be located on flood plains intergovernmental processes such as the review of with the appropriate site design and management, the national greenhouse response strategy. The an approach which risks disaster if a flood of weakness of the proposed new policy framework on unforeseen magnitude or impact occurs. environmental protection and the inability of local policies to vary state government-imposed policy That needs to be put on the record because they will directions does not bode well for the quality of life of be the consequences of this legislation. That is why many Victorians and for improved protection of our we are taking considerable care in outlining our environment in the future. PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1653

I will now refer to the new standardised urbanised Close attention needs to be given to these issues zones, which have serious implications for urban when selecting the new zones that are to apply amenity, particularly in prime residential areas. The throughout the municipality. Therefore, even reduction in the number of residential zones to five municipal governments with their considerable necessarily increases the discretionary uses subject resources have not been able to closely examine to a permit and reduces those uses that were these things and come up with something that at previously prohibited. least convinces the minister that he should not move forward with these amendments. For example, Boroondara planning scheme will be residential C and the new urban residential 1 zone. Let us consider the issue of reduced notice and No permit will be required for bed and breakfast appeal rights. The most significant of these are the accommodation or minor utility installations. New exemption of notice and appeal rights proposed for uses for which a permit will be required will include subdivisions in residential 1 zones and the camping and caravan parks, car parks, major sport exemption from notice and appeal rights for permit and recreation facilities, stores, community markets applications for multi-unit dwellings in residential 2 and drive-in theatres. Uses no longer prohibited zones. An implication of the first case may involve a include community markets, hospitals for infectious developer who wants to build units and applies to diseases, animal hospitals, cemeteries, caravan parks the council for a permit to subdivide. There is no and crematoriums. It should be understood that this limit on the minimum size, so neighbours and is what the amendment will do. Other uses no residents cannot object. If council rejects the longer prohibited will be reformative institutions, application, the developer can still go to the drive-in theatres and attendance centres. Therefore Administrative Appeals Tribunal. However, we will allow animal hospitals, cemeteries, caravan residents cannot do that. This is important because parks, crematoriums, hospitals for infectious there is a good chance of success under the state diseases and anything that may come into the urban consolidation policy. minister's mind. The number of discrepancies between the old and the new residential zones Once the subdivision is complete the way is open for amount to more than 45. This will take some sorting the developer to build a house or unit on each lot out and selling to the residents of Boroondara. This without the requirement of a permit, provided that is only one example of the concerns that exist in that section 1 conditions are met. What does that mean? area. This is a backdoor way for developers to get medium-density housing up. People will not be The Moreland Oty Council at its last meeting aware of what is happening in their neighbourhoods decided that there were a number of broader because they will have no ability to object. concerns in the planning reform program, including the unrealistic timetable on councils to give the new A similar scenario can be outlined for multi-unit planning scheme some public exhibition by June developments. People will be uncertain about what 1997, given the amount of research and consultation will be zoned residential 2 and will not understand that needs to occur in preparing the municipal the implications of that zoning until someone comes strategic statement (MSS) and applying the new forward with a proposal. This is what we must zones. The fact is that there does not appear to be understand, and that is why it is important for these any formal public exhibition of Victoria Planning matters to go on the record. We will be revisiting Provisions and that for the majority of councils the these amendments. It is impossible to put these new planning schemes, which are to include the VPPs through this place without making MSS and the vision statement had to be developed fundamental mistakes because there has been no prior to the return of councillors in March 1997. consultation.

The issue that requires further discussion is the Let us consider the new standardised rural zones. I removal of third-party rights and a number of uses hope my friends on the opposite side of this place, in various new zones. Councils have the option of the agrarian socialists, members of the National applying different zones throughout the Party, have taken care to understand what this municipality, but by and large the future of the new legislation will mean for rural Victoria. There are zones is to have more as-of-right uses and noticeable major implications for environmentally sensitive permits for building and works. areas, particularly on the urban fringe of Melbourne; for example, in the non-urban metropolitan zones, in the Macedon and Dandenong Ranges, the Yarra PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1654 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

Valley and Momington Peninsula. I doubt whether example of the minister being absent during the local members understand what the minister is debate on his or her legislation. I hope that if the doing with this legislation. Let us at least have this minister is listening he will accept what we consider on record so they cannot argue that they were not to be a very serious proposition that will protect the told about it. Local planning schemes and regional rural zones that he is creating. We cannot move strategy plans were developed and approved by the forward without having in place the environmental government to protect areas of outstanding state protection that we require for this state. significance in the Dandenongs, the Yarra Valley and the Mornington Peninsula. Zones, uses and One of the more serious changes to current controls developments for these areas that have been will be the inclusion of an excision clause in each of carefully matched in regional and local planning the three zones. This is an iniquitous proposal that processes to local characteristics will be abolished. effectively doubles the subdivision entitlement for all lots outside urban areas by allowing a landowner There will be only three rural zones, and this is to subdivide off one lot in addition to whatever important. Most sophisticated planning schemes subdivision controls apply. This kind of proviSion such as those in mainly rural municipalities on the effectively says that a subdivision control applies. fringes of Melbourne contain more rural zones than However, it also does not apply. For this reason the three in the VPPs. These reflect local needs and most modem planning dispensed with such conditions. For example, the former Shire of provisions long ago. Yet we are reintroducing such Sherbrooke planning scheme - a shire in which the clauses. This provision alone will allow the creation minister has considerable interest - in the of thousands of new house sites in rural areas, Dandenong Ranges contains four rural zones and including sensitive urban fringe areas. It is an one overlay, yet the new VPPs will deal only with appalling regression by this government. three zones. We have in effect five zones with lot minimums ranging from 8 hectares to basically a Mr Steggall interjected. prohibition on subdivision, so there was a certain protection for that area. As the minister's senior Mr DOLUS - I'm talking about your panel member, Mrs Helen Gibson, said recently in a constituency; you should be listening. panel judgment on amendment 114 to the Sherbrooke planning scheme, the Dandenong Mr Steggall - I am. Ranges are a patchwork of subdivision sizes and land uses. This patchwork requires the careful Mr DOLUS - A further serious environmental matching of zones to special local characteristics. consequence of these zones arises from the residential zones, because they all provide for This is precisely what local and regional planning subdivision. This bill will have a huge effect in rural has done over the last 20 years, with the approval of areas. successive state governments. Five into three does not go, even in the mind of the current planning Or Napthine - We hope so. minister. Compressing such a large number of uses into so few will inevitably lead to inappropriate uses Mr Steggall interjected. and developments commencing in areas where they are currently prohibited. No zone will fulfil the The ACflNG SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - effect of current environmental protection or Order! The honourable member for Swan Hill is out conservation zones. New standardised zones for all of his place and disorderly. rural areas will emphasise development and discretion. Submissions pointed out the need for Mr DOLLIS - The government's response has more rural zones to allow for better environmental been 'We hope so'. At some stage the Minister for protection than the level proposed. Indeed, it is Youth and Community Services will have to live by submitted that a fourth zone for environmental these words because the one certainty about protection is needed. The government should complex planning schemes is that they go wrong. consider that possibility. Or Napthine interjected. I hope the minister, who is not present at the moment, will take serious note of the proposal for a Mr DOLUS - The minister's inability to fourth environmental zone because the government understand his own portfolio is quite obvious, but continues to ignore all such comments. It is another when the Minister for Youth and Community PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1655

Affairs describes this as a simple planning scheme it because they all provide for subdivision. Currently is obvious he has not seen the Victoria Planning there are environmentally significant residential Provisions - almost 300 pages of them! areas in the state where residential subdivision is severely restricted or prohibited. An example is the Or Napthine interjected. Dandenong Ranges. The low-density residential zone, with a minimum subdivision of 0.4 hectares, Mr DOLUS - The minister has just woken up, would be the most appropriate zone for such areas. so I remind him that when he refers to what was in However, many residential lots in the Dandenongs place previously he is referring to the amendments are larger than 0.4 hectares. In addition, the made in 1987, with the total support of the parties landscape living policy area under the regional that were then in opposition, which included his strategy plan has a minimum subdivision size of own political party. But of course he did not even 2 hectares. Oearly the government's proposed exist politically then, let alone understand the standardised residential zones will not fit well across complexity of planning processes or how you the existing residential zones of the Dandenongs and introduce certainty into planning schemes in this will allow significant further subdivision, contrary to state. For the minister's information, the former the statement of planning policy no. 3, which will Labor government at least brought forward a complicate things even further. The key planning planning scheme that was agreed to by all political policy preventing further residential subdivision of parties. the Dandenong Ranges is now to be ignored.

Or Napthine - A disaster! The standard rural zones will dramatically alter the uses that are currently allowed without a permit, Mr DOLUS - The minister says it was disaster. allowed subject to a permit or prohibited in many If that was so, it was a disaster that was fully planning schemes. For example, the environmental supported by his political party under the leadership rural zone is supposed to apply where of the very people with whom he now sits on the environmental issues prevail. The explanation for front bench. But that seems to be another stupidity this zone states that its purpose is to encourage the that resides in the minister. enhancement of the environmental value of a locality and incorrectly adds that the permitted uses The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - have been restricted. Order! The honourable member will address the Chair. It gets better. The new environmental rural zone allows a wide range of uses which are currently Mr DOLUS - Yes, Mr Acting Speaker, but the prohibited under the various existing environmental minister cannot be allowed to make such comments. rural zones. Again an example is the Dandenong Before he comments on the present at least he ought Ranges. The new uses would drastically change the to understand what took place before. Although he existing conditions. Uses that were restricted in does not understand even that, he ought to stick to environmental zones will now be broadened. There his own portfolio. Just for the record, stupidity will be a limited number of prohibited uses in rural resides with him because if it was a disaster it was a zones. For example, in a rural zone only two uses disaster that was committed with the full support of will be prohibited, one of which is a brothel. How his colleagues, the very people with whom he shares ridiculous it becomes. the cabinet table and the front bench. So much for his understanding. An environmental rural zone contains more prohibitions but includes categories such as Let us proceed without any more such interruptions industry, office and nightclub uses, applications for to deal with the opposition's concerns in the which would not normally arise. Permits will be remainder of the time available. We probably will allowed to be issued for uses such as agriculture; car not get enough time tonight but will have to come park; convenience restaurant; convenience shop; back to this tomorrow. We wish to put our major food and drink premises, including a hotel and concerns on the record so that when we return to tavern; leisure and recreation premises, among them consider amendments at some time in the future the major sporting facilities; mineral, stone or soil government will at least know that we told it so. extraction; mining; places of assembly, which include high-impact uses such as drive-in theatres, As I said, another serious environmental exhibition centres and function centres; service consequence arises from the residential zones station; store; take-away food premises; and timber PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1656 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 production. Any environmental zone that allows we have one member here who understands the such uses is surely a development zone without VPPs. even the precaution of a disguise. I return to the debate, in which I had referred to The existing local planning scheme allowed some of local provisions. The VPPs, including policies and those uses in the Dandenong Ranges - for example, zones, will automatically apply to development and for tourist and recreational facilities and land use. The local policy framework must be restaurants - but in identified site-specific areas or consistent with state provisions. Currently local other zones suitable for such developments. Uses provisions make up the bulk of most planning such as soil or stone extraction were prohibited as schemes. This is simple and it can be understood. inappropriate. Describing this type of zone as The new system will reverse the situation. Any environmental makes a mockery of proper planning. remaining local provisions must not contradict the statewide provisiOns. That means the end of Again this is the sort of thing we will utilise over the planning tailored to local conditions and situations. next three years in explaining to the people of The local provisions that remain will be strategic Victoria what the government is doing, and it will be statements and general policy which will have little on the record so that members of the government impact on directing development. will understand. We will outline it for them because the legislation does not do so. I turn to strategic statements. These will provide the main local contribution. However, their statutory Overlay controls will apply as additional controls for impact will be minimal. They will identify and some environmental issues, such as flood-prone land develop long-term directions about land use and and the protection of native vegetation. However, development, provide a vision about planning and they do not include statewide protection for provide information. These statements will also environmental values such as wetlands or natural contain objectives, methods of achieving these resources such as valuable agricu1turalland. objectives, information on opportunities and Overlay controls cannot change the use provisions in constraints and an outline of links with other a zone. This means that prOvisiOns relating to municipalities and the state planning framework. In mining, large private recreational complexes, car other words, the real strength is in the minister's parks or excision clauses cannot be removed. That heavy hand and local councils will be left to add must be understood. some nice words about vision and direction. I hope government members can go to their communities In addition, the overlays will often weaken the and explain that. current standard of environmental controls in the state, regional or local sections of planning schemes. Existing local controls could be included as special For example, two environmental overlay controls controls in a special control zone, or as schedules to include clauses to protect native vegetation, but this zones or overlays or as policies. However, in practice protection applies only to land affected by the these controls will have to be consistent with the overlay control. That of course will significantly substance of the VPPs. Schedules must be limited to weaken the control because currently native specific matters prescribed in the minister's vegetation is protected on all lots in the state that are direction. The government will not allow a council 0.4 hectares or larger. to include a new zone in the planning scheme as part of local contribution through the municipal This is statewide planning development imposed statement or local policy framework. What are without regard for local circumstances, even where government members going to tell their local they have been recognised in sensitive areas by state, communities? They will elect their local councillors regional and local levels of government for 20 years. but they will not have any power. They will not even The next point I make relates to local provisions. have the ability to include a new zone in the planning scheme. Mr Mildenhall interjected. Honourable members interjecting. Mr DOLLIS - The shadow minister for education employment and training has Mr DOLLIS - This was a civilised debate before considerable knowledge about local planning the barbarians started knocking at the gates. The schemes; he has been at the forefront in fighting to vandals are on the other side and you can imagine protect the local amenity for his community. At least what will happen when the barbarians enter. PLANNING AND ENVIRONM ENT (PLANNING SCHEM ES) BILL

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1657

Mr Batchelor interjected. As I said, the policy statement cannot use binding language because that kind of language provides no Mr DOLLIS - I shall put on record the statutory protection and cannot prevent the interjection of the honourable member for inevitable weakening of local controls in many parts Thomastown who said they even burnt the of the state. It takes a second seat to the chookhouse today. Before too long they will burn government's statewide directions. We are making Parliament House. local planning subservient.

Mr Batchelor - Bill Baxter was burnt, as well. I turn to timing and future process. Council local His car was burnt. They burnt his salary. planning schemes must conform with the guidelines and directions issued with the VPPs and use the new The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - standardised format. These will severely bind Order! I think we have had enough. I ask Mr Dollis council discretion. The task of local government is to to continue speaking to the bill. attempt to relate the VPPs and existing planning schemes. The government intends to launch the Mr DOLLIS -It was a rather civilised debate VPPs on 18 December and then to formally before the barbarians came knocking at the gate. introduce them and make them available to councils Five pilot councils have prepared new draft before 15 January 1997 after the bill has passed. The planning schemes in the new format. It will be VPPs will not apply in the statutory manner to land interesting to assess this work and to compare the until incorporated in the new planning schemes and old and the new schemes. It has been difficult to council must exhibit new schemes by June 1997. integrate the rural provisions of the former Shire of Mornington planning scheme into the new format. I hope honourable members understand the These difficulties will be compounded in other areas stupidity of some of these measures, and I shall such as the Dandenong Ranges and the Upper Yarra emphasise them. The government intends to launch Valley. the Victoria Planning Provisions on 18 December and to formally make them available to councils I turn to local policy. The government wishes to before 15 January 1997, after the legislation has been encourage local government to adopt a greater passed. The VPPs will not apply as statutes until strategic planning focus through the municipal they are incorporated. Councils must exhibit the strategic framework and local policies. However, new VPPs by June 1997. these must not conflict with the state policy framework. Local policy is encouraged so long as it The current schemes will continue to apply until conforms. they are revoked in late 1997 and early 1998, when the new schemes come into operation. Those are Major resort or other developments are prohibited in fundamental dates. certain zones in the Shire of Yarra Ranges. These will be allowed under the new state provisions. The shire The government describes the planning provisiOns could seek to insert a policy statement aimed at as tool boxes. What an analogy! Everyone who has directing such developments to identify specific sites used a tool box will understand that sometimes it or other zones which are even more appropriate, in can assist you but at other times it can have conformity with the relevant parts of its current disastrous consequences. The government says the planning scheme. Such a policy statement could not tool boxes are designed to assist councils to develop use binding language preventing these new planning schemes. However, the task for developments but would have to encourage Victorian councils is to determine not how the developments at certain locations and discourage planning provisions can include the existing local them elsewhere. The honourable member for planning schemes, because they cannot and are not Prahran at least would be able to understand this intended to, but how to superimpose the provisions because as a former mayor she would never accept on their localities as best they can. All this has to fit these VPPs. They witness the end of local in with the new municipal schemes, which will government autonomy and they will be the end of become the planning provisions for the state. local planning autonomy. Given that my good friends the agrarian socialists are back in the However, after the councils have dealt with their chamber, let me say I do not know what the VPPs local planning schemes, they will have very little will do for their rural areas. choice. In adopting the planning provisions councils will have to select the most appropriate zones. They PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1658 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 will have to make occasional decisions such as those The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - specifying appropriate subdivision sites in zones Order! The Deputy Leader of the Opposition will such as the rural zones I have referred to. Generally, come back to the bill. local contributions will focus on providing municipal statements, local policies based on local Mr DOLUS - Absolutely, Mr Acting Speaker - information, and future directions. but what a disgrace. The Kennett government is taking away people's democratic rights in planning. The bill will have consequences for residents living The residential planning changes will put in the new zones. Local planning prOvisions will not neighbourhood amenity under threat - and the be able to be used to change the zone provisions, McDonalds amendment is a good example. When including the table of uses, because the uses you drive around Victoria you see the extent to specified in the standard zones will predominate. It which McDonalds restaurants have intruded into must be understood that the government will not residential zones. The new Victoria Planning allow them to be altered or contradicted. However, Provisions will make the expansion of McDonalds uses that are currently prohibited or described as restaurants look like a Sunday morning picnic. They inappropriate will now be allowed. Residents will will allow the government and the minister to alter often be stuck with serious deteriorations in their planning schemes in ways never seen before. lifestyles caused by inappropriate developments, and they may be faced with having to constantly The Kennett government has systematically oppose threatened developments. What a good tool politicised the planning system in the last three it will be for us to use in campaigning in those areas! years. The Minister for Planning and Local Government has consistently said that his door is Mr Baker - There will a McDonalds on every open for business - although the implication is that corner. the access is unequal. 11tis was certainly the case when the concern about Viccode 2 was at its height. Honourable members interjecting. The Deputy Leader of the Liberal Party, who has just entered the chamber, knows what his constituents Mr DOLLIS - The honourable member for did about Viccode 2. Forest Hill is an absolute disgrace. Even at this late hour, having slept for an hour and a half, his only Mr Gude interjected. contribution to the debate has been to use a mock migrant accent. What a pathetic individual he is. Mr DOLLIS - The constituency of the Liberal You are a pathetic individual! Party forced the government to amend the legislation in the way we suggested when it was first The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - introduced. That is why we must make certain that Order! The Deputy Leader of the OppOSition, on the there are not two classes of residents in this state and bill. that the planning schemes introduced by the government apply equally across the entire Mr DOLUS - It is very hard. The honourable Victorian landscape. The lack of environmental member for Forest Hill has spent an hour and a half protection is obvious. asleep in the chamber and has just woken up. His mocking attempt to imitate an accent. That is A Labor government will seek the following something the chamber cannot put up with. He is outcomes. We will pursue coordinated development the same person who recently voted for a bipartisan that enables service provisions to be planned and motion on racism. implemented in cost-effective, timely and responsible ways. We will ensure there is The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - community involvement in decisions about Order! The Deputy Leader of the Opposition will developments and that those decisions are come back to the bill. consistent, fair and publicly accountable. We want to see greater arbitration and conciliation and Mr DOLUS - Mr Acting Speaker, order him mediation of planning decisions at the local level. back to sleep. That type of behaviour should not be tolerated in this chamber. In the past the integrated and coordinated approach to planning adopted by federal and state Labor governments has resulted in considerable benefits for Victoria, and we will seek to ensure that that ADJOURNMENT

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1659 continues. We want to safeguard environmental recommend that Mr Gribble serve a further two qualities and local amenities not only to ensure a years. The unanimous decision of the council was more livable city but also to construct a regional that three members continue to serve for another competitive advantage for Melbourne. We will two years. Two members were subsequently target our policies to ensure greater equity among reappointed by the minister, but Mr Gribble was not the residents of the different metropolitan regions. reappointed. They are the planning policies a Labor government will pursue after the next election. I seek from the minister an explanation of why Mr Gribble was not reappointed. I have no There have been winners under this government's argument with the ability of Mr Robert Saddler, who planning process. They include the development has now been appointed to the council, and I agree mates of the government, consultants, the residents that he is a good operator, but that is not the issue. of Monomeath Avenue, Canterbury - they are a The issue is that a well-respected man, whom many classic example - and the mining industry, which is of us know in Ballarat, the former head of the exempt from the planning process. Of course, there biggest private sector firm in Ballarat, was removed have also been losers. Notions of public participation by the minister at very short notice without and residential amenity have been damaged, the explanation. That has caused the council of the Dandenong Ranges have been affected, and people school of mines to seek from the Minister a meeting have lost confidence in the planning system. I could to explain his decision. The decision caused go on and on about disastrous planning in this state. Mr Gribble to write to the Ballarat Courier on 28 In my concluding remarks -- November commenting that the newspaper has referred to the council -- Honourable members interjecting. The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Mr DOLLIS - I am not concluding the debate, I honourable member must ask for some action. am using the remaining few seconds to say that 1987 was the last year -- Mr BRACKS - I have, Mr Deputy Speaker; I have asked on several occasions that the minister Debate interrupted pursuant to sessional orders. explain his decision not to reappoint Mr Gribble to the council of the Ballarat School of Mines, and I ADJOURNMENT seek from the minister an explanation of his actions.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The time for The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The me to interrupt business has now arrived. honourable member's time has expired. I remind the house that the adjournment debate is an opportunity Ballarat School of Mines to ask ministers to take action on issues as opposed to explaining issues. Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I direct to the attention of the Minister for Tertiary Education and Family support programs Training his decision of 18 November not to reappoint Mr Bill Gribble as a member of the Mr WELLS (Wantirna) - I direct to the attention Ballarat School of Mines council. I seek from the of the Minister for Youth and Community Services minister an explanation for not reappointing the resources available for parenting skills. The MrGribble. electorate of Wantirna is a typical family electorate; it has the second highest number of primary school As other honourable members in this house would kids, of mums and dads with two kids, of families know, Mr Bill Gribble is a respected member of the paying off houses and of families with two cars. Ballarat community. He is a former chief executive Many families have moved into the Wantirna-Knox of Bendix Mintex, one of the biggest employers in area because it has cheap land and in so doing have Ballarat. He has served on the council of the school moved away from their parents in the inner and of mines for the past seven years. He also launched eastern suburbs. That makes it more difficult for and has been involved in small business training parents to discuss with other parents, particularly programs in Ballarat. The minister saw fit to fax and family members, some of the problems they then deliver to Mr Gribble a simple letter saying that experience. A typical example is financial problems. he had not been reappointed, despite the unanimous A husband and wife may both be working, and decision of the Ballarat School of Mines council to when the wife stops work to start a family, financial ADJOURNMENT

1660 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 pressures may arise which lead to stress and of finance; failure to deliver an accurate and reliable pressure on other family members. I guess most billing system', and many other complaints. people would agree that the best form of social welfare is the family unit, and it is crucial that A recent example was a recommendation by the families stay together, where possible. CEO to make redundant the pOSitions of general manager, operations, and general manager, human Families also need to seek advice on such areas as resources, only to create two more positions with teenage discipline. It is okay if families have a similar salary and status. Unfair dismissal action is nearby family member with whom they can discuss now being taken against the board, but it seems to these problems. I am not in that situation yet, but in be getting used to that because it has just settled out the next five or six years my family will have to of court another unfair dismissal case at a cost of determine how best to handle our teenage children. tens of thousands of dollars of ratepayers' money. Many families have nowhere to go for help. Bed-wetting may be a minor problem for young Another reason an investigation is warranted is the children but it becomes a serious matter when it letting of several large contracts without the affects a teenager. Does a family with such problems authority going through company policy or the go to a general practitioner or does it use other government tendering process. I refer to a contract resources? Families of non-English-speaking for $50 000 for Coronnell Consultants. I am told the backgrounds sometimes find it difficult to get in consultant is a friend of the CEO and that the contact with the many services that are available. contract was not advertised or tendered and that no competitive quotes were requested, as is company I seek some action from the minister about policy. A more recent example is the awarding of a increasing the resources available for parenting skills contract worth more than $250 000 to and for helping to keep families together. This is a GSS Consulting, which also employs consultants very important and relevant issue to the electorate of who are former colleagues of the CEO. Wantirna. The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Central Gippsland Region Water honourable member's time has expired. Authority Education: Benalla regional manager Ms GARBUTI CBundoora) - I direct to the attention of the Minister for Agriculture and Mr E. R. SMITH (Glen Waverley) - I direct to Resources the Central Gippsland Region Water the attention of the Minister for Education a serious AuthOrity, and I ask the minister to refer the matter matter that was raised by the honourable member to the Auditor-General for investigation. It has been for Niddrie in this house last night. The honourable brought to my attention that the minister has member for Niddrie referred to the general manager received a letter from Gippsland water authority for schools in the Benalla area, Mr Robert Lamb, as a employees calling for his assistance in dealing with a thug. This is a very serious matter. It is a matter particular situation. The minister would be aware members of this house feel extraordinarily angry that 60 of the authority's 114 employees have signed about. For the honourable member for Niddrie to the letter, which expresses concern and alarm at the come into the house and describe a senior public actions of the chief executive officer of that servant in such a manner is utterly disgraceful. authority, Mr Bill Sundermann, and senior According to the Oxford dictionary a thug is a management. The 60 members who signed the letter violent and dangerous person. The description given were the overwhelming majority of section leaders last night of Mr Lamb's activities bore no and nearly all of the operational staff. relationship to that definition. If the honourable member for Niddrie were to besmirch Mr Lamb's Many of the employees who signed the letter are character in that way outside the house it would fearful of the recriminations that may follow. The constitute defamation and lead to heavy damages letter includes various concerns about the being awarded against the honourable member. 'widespread, uncoordinated and unbudgeted use of consultants at considerable expense to the public Since yesterday this story has circulated widely and purse; consultants' reports that are never actioned; it has damaged Mr Lamb's reputation. He knows loss of experienced and valuable staff members; many members of this house. I know him and I inability to appoint and maintain a general manager know of the good work he has done not only since ADJ OURNM ENT

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1661

this government came to office but beforehand as an large treed area the Allingham Street houses officer of the then Department of Education. overlook. The company has also made it clear that it wants to fill the hole with water instead of soil. I call upon the Minister for Education to do what the honourable member for Niddrie suggested, which is The minister will be aware that the proposal for the to investigate the matter and come up with a open-cut pit at Allingham Street will be the subject solution that will clear Mr Lamb's name and ensure of a panel hearing next year. However, the proposal that senior public servants can go about their duties is for the pit to be some 60 metres from the Browells' unimpeded and act without fear or favour. It is house. The Browells do not want it 100 metres away disgraceful that the opposition should use this house and they certainly do not want it 60 metres away. as a cowards' castle. I call upon the Minister for Section 45 provides a lOO-metre limit, but the Education to tell us tOnight what he has done since minister can make an exemption. last night and explain how he proposes to deal with this matter. Unless that is done public servants will On behalf of Mr and Mrs Browell I ask the minister not have the confidence to go about their duties in if he can assure the Browells and their neighbours the professional manner we expect of them. that the lOO-metre rule will not be waived against the wishes of the householders. I ask him if he will Bendigo Mining NL guarantee that there will be no mining within 100 metres of the houses. Mr CAMERON (Bendigo West) - I raise for the attention of the Minister for Agriculture and Wilson's Promontory National Park Resources a matter that concerns a proposal for open-cut mining by Bendigo Mining NL in urban Mr RYAN (Gippsland South) - I raise for Bendigo. The proposal concerns the Allingham consideration by the Minister for Conservation and Street area of Kangaroo Flat. The minister will be Land Management an issue relating to the draft aware that mining has created a great deal of interest management plan recently issued by her department in Bendigo, especially the plan for deep-lead mining for the future management of the Wilson's that will carry on for many years. Promontory National Park and the draft master plan for the future management of the Tidal River area. I When the company announced plans for deep-lead might say that for some 30 years I have had the great mining in September this year the managing director pleasure of occasionally visiting the park and Tidal told the Age that to minimise the impact the entrance River. More recently I have had occasion to stay at needs to be as far removed from habitation as the park with my wife and family. possible. That was clarified in the Bendigo Advertiser on the same day, 19 September. The managing Today I had discussions with Mr Doug Humann director said the entrance would need to be more from the National Parks Association. I have the than 100 metres away from houses. The minister will greatest respect for Mr Humann and I understand be aware that under section 45 of the Mineral that he has a point of view to express on behalf of his Resources Development Act the normal rule is that association concerning the issues involved in the mining cannot occur within 100 metres of houses master plan. I think a fair summation of our and gardens, although the minister can allow discussion is that we have agreed to differ. exemptions. I wish to clarify some matters tonight and I ask the I raise the matter on behalf of Mr and Mrs Browell, minister for assistance. Many initiatives have been who live in Allingham Street directly opposite the proposed for the future of the Wilson's Promontory proposed site for an open-cut pit. They have spoken National Park and they are set out in the draft to me about the proposal. In February this year management plan. The master plan for Tidal River Bendigo Mining held an information evening and has probably attracted the most comment in recent explained what the company wanted to do in the times. It is on that aspect that I seek comment by the Allingham Street area. Although many residents minister. were not happy, many of them were prepared to grit their teeth and bear the proposal. Tidal River is about 30 kilometres inside the gate of the national park. It comprises about 80 hectares, But all that changed in the middle of this year when which is something less than 1 per cent of the 50 000 the company revealed that it wanted to dig a much hectares of the national park itself. Over the past bigger hole some 400 metres long and wipe out a 40 years or thereabouts approximately 70 buildings ADJOURNMENT

1662 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 have been constructed at Tidal River. There is He did not announce the extra expenditure, he has extensive infrastructure, shops and a visitor not intimated that it will take place now, and yet he information centre. There is even an outside theatre expects the chairman of the authority, the that patrons are able to enjoy over the summer Honourable Bill Baxter in another place, to continue months. to receive his extra salary, his car, his staff, and his perks all through the Christmas break. If the Premier During the summer season about 4000 campers are were fair dinkum he would have announced not accommodated in the area, together with about only the end of the authority but the cessation of 250 people in roofed accommodation. The initiatives those benefits to the chairman of the authority. propose the extension of the roofed accommodation, particularly Wilderness Lodge. I wish to clarify that The government is sinking to depths unseen before it is intended that the development will comprise a in this Parliament. The Premier tonight has resorted service centre surrounded by about 20 cabins that to petulant and childish abuse, and there should be would each accommodate half a dozen people. The an immediate investigation into what is happening. I cabins would be serviced. In addition there would want to know what it will cost the taxpayers of be a group lodge for 20 to 40 people. There is Victoria for the government to continue to pay a supposed to be an investigation concerning motor member of its party to do nothing and sit around in huts, some new cabins and an overnight lodge. the summer vacation raking in $70 000 a year, swanning about with two members of staff and I ask the minister to comment on the process being driven around the countryside in a car. I want associated with the examination of these plans, the answers to this immediately. requirement for community input and her concern to ensure that the eventual outcome is community The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The driven. I ask her to address those matters. honourable member's time has expired. I inform the house that it has had its little bit of frivolity and the Parliament House Completion Authority Chair will be far less tolerant in future.

Mr BATCHELOR (Thomastown) - I raise a Stanhope Primary School matter for the attention of the Premier. I ask the Premier to immediately instigate a financial Mr MAUGHAN (Rodney) - I direct to the investigation of the ramifications of his attention of the Minister for Education the purchase announcement tOnight of the abolition of the of a disused teachers' residence at the Stanhope Parliament House Completion Authority. Tonight Primary School. Stanhope is a small rural town some the Premier announced that the Parliament House 8 or 10 kilometres south-west of Kyabram on the Completion Authority would be terminated. The Midland Highway. It is well known as being the Premier said that the authority was terminated home of an important Bonlac milk processing plant because the Labor Party opposed mining in national and of a former deputy Prime Minister of Australia, parks. That remark can be described only as bizarre, Sir John McEwen. idiosyncratic and childish. The Labor Party has the absolute right to oppose mining in national parks. Stanhope is also well noted for another reason - We have often stated it in the past and we will that is, it has one of the best primary schools in continue to do so. Victoria. The excellent primary school has a keen, enthusiastic principal, Mr Ian Butler, excellent staff, However, there are matters of government strong community and parental support and administration other than mining in national parks excellent facilities. Those facilities were refurbished that need the immediate attention of this by this government and I, together with Mr Robert government. Those matters go to the question of Lamb - the regional manager who has done a great what will happen to the bureaucracy. In his job in the area - had the pleasure of opening them announcement tonight the Premier failed to explain some 12 months ago. what would happen to the Parliament House Completion Authority, the extra salary paid to its Within the school grounds is the disused residence. chairman, the extra salaries paid to members of its The building has been condemned and has not been staff, the provision of the chairman's car and other used for many years. It has no separate title or benefits. separate access. The school community wishes to secure the disused building through a cooperative both for school purposes and for the wider ADJOURNMENT

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1663 community. It wishes to use its available funds of next year. We are talking about the rejuvenation, or more than $40 000 plus voluntary labour to refurbish so-called rejuvenation, of Moonee Ponds Creek. the building for the use of the school community, the Obviously that cannot be done until the western link visiting library, parent groups, a meeting room for is finished, so there is no justification for trying to the West Goulburn Community Health Centre and rush the matter through during the holiday period. as a focus for the recently appointed youth worker in that area. I understand that Transfield Obayashi is fairly unhappy with the quality of drawings so far Today the school was advised that the supplied to it by Baulderstone Hornibrook. I ask the Valuer-General's valuation of the piece of land is minister to ensure that residents are given the $25000, plus legal and surveying costs. The minister opportunity for proper consultation with has been most helpful with other educational Baulderstone Homibrook at a time convenient to projects in the electorate of Rodney and I ask the them, which is not during January. I ask that the minister to use his best endeavours to investigate the residents have a reasonable time - at least options available to the school community to secure 30 days - to put submissions before the matter is this condemned, disused and deteriorating facility assessed by the City Link Authority. It would be so that the school community, and the general quite unacceptable for Transurban, which has tried community, can rebuild and refurbish it for the use to sell the proposal to the community as a good idea, of the community? to continually agree to Baulderstone Hornibrook forcing the planning proposals through without City Link: Baulderstone Hornibrook proper consultation.

Mr5 MADDIGAN (Essendon) - I direct to the Buses: mechanical checks attention of the Minister for Planning and Local Government a matter concerning Baulderstone Mr LUPTON (Knox) - I refer the Minister for Homibrook, the contractors for the western link of Transport to the situation where buses licensed City Link. There is considerable concern in the area under the Transport Act are required to have annual that Baulderstone Homibrook is not entering into mechanical check-ups. My advice is that buses the appropriate consultation process and I ask the owned by private companies and used by minister to ensure that that occurs. owner-drivers or used as hire buses are not registered under the act and do not have to have Schedule 5 of the contract provides for five matters mechanical check-ups every 12 months. Those buses on which consultation is required with the council carry a number of people on our roads, and if they and community groups: noise attenuation barriers; are not required to have annual mechanic check-ups the international gateway; the rejuvenation of the I believe the passengers are in danger. The local Moonee Ponds Creek; landscaping along the council in my area has a courtesy bus service, for Tullamarine Freeway and the agreed routes; and which it has recently started charging a dollar a trip. landscaping of shared pathways. My advice is that it is not registered under the Transport Act. If the correct mechanical procedures After some pressure from local community groups, are not followed, the passengers on that bus are at Baulderstone Homibrook has agreed to have a great risk. community information day to discuss the matter with the residents. That was supposed to be held Will the minister advise whether it is possible to this month but I understand it has now been put off ensure that the mechanical checks on buses owned possibly until the beginning of January. It is quite by owner-drivers or used as courtesy buses are inappropriate for such important matters to be dealt performed on a regular basis. I do not believe it is with at the beginning of January when a lot of good enough for large bus companies which act in a families who will be affected by the project will be responsible manner to be subject to annual on holidays. mechanical check-ups when small companies which own only one or two buses and which hire them out At this stage Baulderstone Homibrook has done do not have to submit those buses for annual nothing but provide general concept plans. We have mechanical check-ups. It is a grey area and it is very had no opportunity to see any definite design dangerous for the people who use the buses. proposals for the area. It is quite unacceptable for Baulderstone Homibrook to insist that the five The courtesy bus used by the City of Knox is not matters be dealt with at the beginning of January registered under the Transport Act and is therefore ADJOURNMENT

1664 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 not required to have a mechanical check-up on an of the park into Tidal River. It has been in the park armual basis. That is a fault which should be looked for 60 or 70 years and encompasses about into. Previously the City of Knox did not charge a 80 hectares, providing accommodation of various fee for the use of the courtesy bus, but now that it kinds for up to 4000 visitors at anyone time. charges $1 a trip it has put itself in the same category However, the accommodation is predominantly of as other bus lines. the tent-camping ground type.

I ask the minister to investigate the matter and Recently I was down at Wilsons Promontory, as was advise me whether courtesy buses used by councils, the honourable member for Gippsland South, for the owner-drivers and hire firms will be subject to the opening of lodges that replaced old lodges. The new same mechanical checkups as are required for lodges have been attractively designed by an vehicles registered under the Transport Act. architect, Ken Lantona, who has an excellent reputation for work in a natural environment. He Responses uses predominantly natural products, including timber, and the lodges are well landscaped. They fit Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Conservation and into the contours of the land and provide Land Management) - It was difficult to tell from accommodation superior to anything that is there at the honourable member for Bundoora's speech to the moment. whom she was addressing her adjournment matter. I asked and it was still not clear. She referred to the What is proposed in the draft management plan is minister for natural resources. I presume she meant an opportunity for lodges to be sensitively situated the Deputy Premier and Minister for Agriculture in the natural environment and built of material that and Resources. As it was a water matter I take it that blends into the environment but provides that is to whom it was referred. accommodation for people who do not want to bring all their own provisions, bedding and food, to enable The member for Gippsland South raised with me the them to enjoy shorter stays in the park. Many draft management plan that is currently out for Victorians, including older people and those with consultation affecting the Wilsons Promontory children, want to go to Wilsons Promontory, stay for National Park. I am pleased that the member for one or two nights and enjoy the walks, the scenery Gippsland South has taken such an interest in this and the strong natural environment without carting matter, as one would expect. It comes within his their food and accommodation needs with them. electorate and he has indicated it is an incredibly That is proposed in the plan. special part not only of Gippsland but of the whole of Victoria. The park is much beloved by many As I said, the plan is open for comment and will be Victorians. It is one of our oldest national parks and commented on by a number of organisations and in 1998 will celebrate 100 years in operation. It is individuals. No doubt Doug Humann, Director of frequently visited by many Victorians, interstate the Victorian National Parks Association, will put in visitors and more and more international visitors. a submission not unlike the public stance that he has taken on this matter. That is his right and I look The management plan is a draft plan put out by the forward to seeing that submission. However, other Director of National Parks, Mark Stone, for comment people will indicate that, as we go into the by the general public. It encompasses a number of 21st century, we need to provide appropriate very positive measures, including a strong accommodation for a wide range of people who component of ecologically improved management of want to use the park. the park and a range of environmental improvements. Without doubt, anyone reading that I am sure there will also be submissions from some plan would see that its primary focus is on of the new bodies that protect our coastal areas. I preservation and enhancement of the natural values know the honourable member for Bellarine is very of that area. involved in coastal activities. He has in the Parliament tonight a guest, Diane James, who is the The plan goes on to indicate that, as has been aptly acting chairman of the coastal council, a new body described by the honourable member for Gippsland set up by the government to consider developments South, considerable development is currently taking and our strategy for the whole of the Victorian coast. place down there to accommodate the people who I was with her when the coastal council recently want to enjoy the park. The area of Tidal River is at announced its draft strategy, which is also out for the end of the bitumen road that runs from the edge public comment. The direction of the coastal strategy ADJOURNMENT

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1665 is something that the people of Victoria should be undertaken across all non-metropolitan authorities very pleased with and enthusiastic about. showed that the costs of running the Central Gippsland water authority were some 25 per cent As the organisation seeks input into the coastal higher than a number of comparable authorities. strategy, the proposals and the issues raised will be That reinforces the need for some structural changes addressed in the analysis of the submissions being to be made and for some efficiencies to be made to the Wilsons Promontory draft management introduced into the system. The Latrobe Valley plan. region was highly unionised in the past. Its work force is still highly unionised and there has been I thank the honourable member for raising this some resistance to change. matter with me. It has given me an opportunity to indicate to the house and to Victorians who are I welcome back the member for Bundoora! It is interested in this area that this is their opportunity to certainly important that some fundamental reforms have input into the proposal. While developments in continue to be made. I will not respond to an attack national parks must be done sensitively and be on the authority orchestrated by the Labor Party. cognisant of the fact that the prime value of a park is I will ensure that we continue to drive fundamental its environmental value, we anticipate there will be reform with the authority and that we improve the strong support for the building of environmentally service delivery to ratepayers. sensitive accommodation that will enable more people to use the wonderful national park at Some of the performance measurements of the Wilsons Promontory. authority show its performance to be commendable. It has reduced debt to $21.5 million, which is a Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Agriculture and reduction over the past 12 months of some Resources) - The member for Bundoora does not $8 million. The authority has had an extraordinary appear to be here. operating profit, and that is also commendable. The benchmarking study identified that it has the second The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The hour is lowest tariffs of any of the comparable late. If we want to complete the adjournment debate, non-metropolitan urban authorities. The residential I ask for members' cooperation, with the emphasis water and sewerage rate of $412 compares on 'if' we want to complete the debate. favourably with the state average of $518, and the authority needs acknowledgment for that. It is also Mr McNAMARA - Apparently the honourable achieving good results in improving drinking water member for Bundoora has no interest in hearing the standards as well as complying with the EPA in response. I presume that if she had any interest she waste water disposal. would have stayed around. In spite of that and for the record I will respond to the matter raised. She As I said, on the negative side, the administrative referred to the Central Gippsland Region Water and management costs are 25 per cent higher than Authority and mentioned quite correctly that some those of a number of other authorities, and that 60 employees of the authority signed a letter needs to be addressed. That will mean some addressed to me expressing their lack of confidence structural adjustment, which is certainly resisted by in the authority's senior management. She said the 60 staff members. Nonetheless it will occur and the total number of employees at the authority is 114; in beneficiaries will be the ratepayers of that Gippsland fact the total is 157. area.

The authority has certainly had some problems with The member for Bendigo West referred to mining in its billing system in recent months and that now the Bendigo area. He pointed out that the initial appears to be coming under control. In autumn it wealth of this state was generated from the had problems with poor water quality at its goldmining industry. Buildings that were treatment plant as well as problems recruiting and constructed, particularly in the Bendigo area, owe retaining a finance manager. much of the initial wealth of that city --

I have discussed a number of those issues with the Mr Brumby interjected. authority's chairman. The government is certainly comfortable with the moves made by the authority. Mr McNAMARA - You make the point: it was a It is worth noting that although performing quite gold-rush building. It's a pity we can't finish it well in a number of areas, the benchmarking study because of the nonsense that is being played by the ADJOURNMENT

1666 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 opposition. The member for Bendigo West raised a I should also stress that the only orchestrated significant issue about goldmining, which we all campaign against that decision was run in Ballarat want to see continue to develop. He said a panel by one Ms Robin Mason. Who is she? She just hearing is under way at the moment. I will be in a happened to be the Labor candidate for Ballarat better position to make an assessment once that has West at the election this year! The member for been completed. I will give the member a more Williamstown, who seems to have a roving shadow detailed response once the results of the panel ministerial portfolio these days, as shadow minister hearing are available. for training --

Mr HONEYWOOD (Minister for Tertiary An honourable member interjected. Education and Training) - Only last night honourable members - I stress honourable Mr HONEYWOOD - He could have a very members - were treated to another example of the close working relationship, for all I know. Having member for Williamstown playing fast and loose said that, the member for Williamstown seems to with the truth. We all heard him quote selectively have a roving responsibility. We had a shadow from an article in the Ballarat Courier. He was so minister for training and for tertiary education, but selective he left out the headline and two-thirds of the member seems to like to dabble in a number of the article, which were totally at odds with the treats and delights across the full spectrum of allegations the member made against the government administration. I will continue to use honourable member for Ripon. my ministerial prerogative from time to time to ensure that we have full representation of interests Tonight we had another example of the so-called on all TAPE governing councils. honourable member playing fast and loose with the truth. He implied that one Mr Bill Gribble had been Mr GUDE (Minister for Education) - Last got rid of from a TAPE council. The honourable evening Parliament was treated to one of the more member for Williamstown did not mention that despicable attacks by any member in this place on a Mr Bill Gribble's term had expired. The gentleman public servant. The honourable member for Niddrie in question, who is a retired business person, had raised a matter in most despicable terms when he served some eight years on the TAPE council. condemned as a thug the general manager of the Goulburn-north eastern region of education. It was The member for Williamstown did not mention, of one of the most cowardly attacks I have had the course, that the council put forward three misfortune to hear in this house. The honourable recommendations for three positions and that member probably does not even know the person I chose to reappoint two-thirds of them - that is, concerned and certainly would not have the guts, I reappointed two of the three people on the advice the decency or the integrity to make those remarks of the council. If the member had bothered to read outside the privilege afforded to him in this place. the act in question and the articles of association he would have referred to clause 4.3, which provides However, I inform the house that I have taken the that in selecting ministerial nominees and industry trouble to follow this matter through and I shall read members, the minister will consider any candidates to the house a statement from Mr Tom Greene, the who have been recommended by the council. principal of the Benalla College, who writes:

Given all the factors, that Bill Gribble had served his Throughout 1996 and during November 1996 when eight years, that his term had expired and that he is schools were invited to consider restructure, no longer an industry member, having retired from Robert Lamb, general manager (schools), has made a industry participation, I considered him not to be an significant effort to inform and support the school with industry member any longer. I chose the chief respect to its future. Specifically he has done the executive of the Central Highlands water authority, following things: who came very well recommended on a bipartisan basis from many sectors of the Ballarat community. He has acknowledged that there are differences in He is currently an industry participant in Ballarat opinion on the issue of school restructure in Benalla and a key player in his industry membership. and that Benalla College would have the opportunity to I decided to use the discretion I have as minister to decide its future course of action and college council's suggest that Mr Bill Gribble had served very well for decision would be respected. eight years and that new blood should be brought on to the governing council. Having said that, ADJOURNMENT

Wednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1667

Other than communicating what the department's The honourable member for Rodney referred to an policy is on the issue of restructure, he has personally unused teacher residence at the Stanhope Primary not applied pressure or coercion to me as principal or School. Unlike members from the other side last to any member of the school council to make any evening, the honourable member for Rodney raised particular decision in relation to school restructure. the matter in his normal, thoughtful, caring and considerate way, seeking always to advance the During November 1996 and on a number of occasions cause of his local community and seeking to achieve Robert Lamb has given me appropriate advice in terms an outcome that will benefit the total community. of the consultation exercise that was required or expected of the school community. He asked that I look into the matter and I shall certainly have officers of the department make He has also indicated to me personally that he contact with the school and with him to see what can understood the difficult situation I was placed in and possibly be done to bring about the sort of quality that I have his support as the general manager (schools) improvement in that community that he wishes. The and as a parent even though we had differing opinions honourable member has achieved these sorts of of the best outcome. changes in other parts of his electorate and I have no doubt that a workable, sensible and effective The letter was signed by Tom Greene, the principal decision will be achieved yet again as a consequence of Benalla College. of the effort of this outstanding local member.

Mr Bracks interjected. Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and Local Government) - The honourable member for Mr GUDE - The honourable member for Essendon referred to consultation in respect of noise Williamstown should be ashamed of himself. He is walls, the international gateway, Moonee Ponds obviously lending his support to the disgraceful creek treatment and landscaping and shared performance last night. The honourable member for pathways along the creek in the area leading from Niddrie owes Parliament, and more particularly the Tullamarine Freeway down towards Mount Mr Lamb, an apology for the remarks he made last Alexander Road. She is thoughtful of the fact that it night. I hope he will have the courage to do so. I also would be inappropriate to have consultation on hope the Age will report the changes that have taken those matters in January 1997 and seemed critical of place. the preparation of material as part of that consultation process. When the Department of Education proposal for the restructure of Benalla College was announced the I assure the honourable member that, like her, I have general manager (schools) met with the principal in only just had the first elements of consultation about the presence of two regional office employees and the proposals of the contractors in that area who explained the process to be followed by the school came to see me last week. I understand a and the principals responsible. The college council consultative process will be undertaken. If she is met on 30 October 1996 and decided unanimously unhappy with the January date, although it might that the college should retain two sites. The principal suit some people, and if she can suggest another informed the general manager (schools) of the date it might be possible for another date to be decision the following day and the general manager scheduled as well as the January date. (schools) assured Mr Greene that the view of council would be respected. Mr BROWN (Minister for Transport) - The honourable member for Knox referred to what he The college council subsequently called a public regards as an anomaly in that Victorian buses are meeting to again support the retention of two required to have compulsory annual inspections to campuses and the general manager (schools), ensure that in every way they are roadworthy and Mr Robert Lamb, attended as a parent. He argued in operate safely and in a reasonable way on the roads. favour of amalgamation of the two campuses on the one site. The college council has been informed that He cited the example of a bus which was introduced all the entitlements of the campuses will be by the City of Knox as a courtesy bus but which is maintained, restored and honoured, as was the clear now charging a $1 fare to convey people around the commitment of the government. It is important that municipality. The bus has a different form of the honourable member now make an appropriate registration which for all intents and purposes apology for the disgraceful remarks he made. ADJOURNM ENT

1668 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996 would be private registration and therefore not known as a family electorate. I recently visited subject to the annual roadworthy inspection. Rowville, which is in his electorate, and met a number of families from the area. I congratulate the This falls within the jurisdiction of my colleague, the honourable member on the work he has done in his Minister for Roads and Ports and I shall take it up electorate. I particularly congratulate him on the with him. However, the honourable member work he has done to support the families who have expressed concern about the safety of buses that do moved to Rowville, whether from not have annual inspections. I am sure buses non-English-speaking backgrounds or from the operating in Victoria are safe in every respect. If they wider Australian community. The honourable were not safe and, because of mechanical defects, member has played an important part in building were involved in accidents, people would have a the enormous community spirit that is evident in the remedy at common law. area.

Mr Batchelor interjected. Mr Batchelor - Do you know where it is?

Mr BROWN - It is the same policy that has been Or NAPTHINE - I was out there last week, as I in place for 10'V2 years. said. The member raised the need for the development of improved parenting skills and Mr Batchelor - What is the name of the outlined the benefits to be gained from it. If we company? improve parenting skills we will get better outcomes for our children and reduce the risk of their coming Mr BROWN - For once the honourable member to the attention of the child protection service. That should listen. I am talking about buses that are not really is a good preventative measure. As the subject to annual roadworthy tests. I am talking member said, effective families are the best social about buses that people can hire from firms such as welfare system our society can have. Budget, Avis and a raft of other firms. Such a bus is operated by the City of Knox. Those buses comply I am pleased to tell the honourable member and the with normal registration requirements and unlike house that today the government has committed other buses are not necessarily inspected annually, $8 million, to be spent over the next three years, for and that is the point the honourable member raised. the development of specific parenting skills. The project will be funded with $6.5 million from the In answer to the member's question, the buses are Community Support Fund and $1.5 million from the not inspected by any company regularly - and that Department of Human Services. The program will is the point he raised. If a bus were subjected to an have three components. The first involves the inquiry as a result of an accident and it was proved establishment of the Victorian Parenting Centre by a that a defect caused the accident and that it involved consortium representing the RMIT, the Royal negligence on behalf of the owner or operator, of Oilldren's Hospital, and the Tweddle Child and course people would have a remedy at common law. Family Health Service. The parenting centre will act But I am sure the companies that own the buses or as a key research and evaluation agency for the the municipalities that operate them would not development of equipment and material to help subject themselves to such a risk. advance parenting skills across the state. It will also be involved in train the trainer programs to ensure I will undertake to raise the matter with the Minister the people teaching those parenting skills are given for Roads and Ports. That has certainly been the the up-to-date information. situation for as long as I can remember. It has certainly been so for the past four years, and it was The second is the development of regional parenting the situation for all the time the former Labor resource services. There will be one in each of the government was in office - so this is nothing new. Department of Human Services regions, so there will Nevertheless, I will take up the matter with my be nine across the state. Those resource centres will colleague the Minister for Roads and Ports and will encourage families to participate in local parenting get back to the honourable member for Knox. and skill development programs, provide direct support to parents as effective care givers, link and Dr NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and coordinate existing services offered by Community Services) - The honourable member non-government agencies and develop a specialist for Wantirna raised the need for additional support parent education and support network. They will for parents, particularly in his electorate, which is ADJOURNMENT

~vednesday, 4 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1669 emcourage and adopt family-centred approaches in Completion AuthOrity continuing in his position those regions. throughout the summer recess and into the early part of next year given that the Premier has now The third component of this important program is abandoned the project. If he cannot answer that the allocation of $500 000 per year over the next question, he should refer it to the Premier in order to three years - a total of $1.5 million - for the get a truthful answer - either that or sit down and positive parenting program and family intervention be quiet. service. That will build on the excellent work that was done by the previous minister, which led to the The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! There is no development of a positive parenting program in point of order. The honourable member for Victoria. That program will assist parents of Thomastown has been around this place long high-risk children or parents exhibiting early signs enough to understand that during the adjournment of difficulties in their relationships with their debate - and the same applies to question time - children. The people involved will work closely with ministers have the opportunity to build responses to those families to help them overcome those questions. So long as they are relevant, the Chair problems. will continue to hear them. Also on the question of relevance, if the honourable member needs It is a comprehensive program that will assist reminding, it is my understanding that the minister families right across Victoria. Families in growth was referring to western Victoria, obviously in corridors like Wantirna will benefit. Many of those relation to the mining of the stone, which was families have moved away from some of their central to the matter raised by the member for traditional supports, including their extended Thomastown. families. If they have moved to those areas from the inner suburbs they are likely to be some distance Dr NAPIHINE - As a member who represents from their parents, uncles and aunties and therefore western Victoria, I know that local people will be need particular assistance in developing parenting extremely disappointed that the project and its skills. opportunities for employment have been scuttled by the actions of the ALP. The honourable member for Thomastown raised with the Premier issues relating to the decision not Honourable members interjecting. to proceed with the completion of Parliament House. The decision is very wUortunate. The selfish The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The Chair political actions of the Leader of the Opposition and will not tolerate a continuation of this behaviour. I his ALP cronies have prevented this program from will simply put the question if the house continues proceeding. TItis completion of Parliament House to carry on this way. The honourable members at the would have been a major project of importance to all table should control themselves while the minister Victorians. Parliament House has been waiting quickly concludes his remarks. 100 years to be completed, and the project would have created direct employment for more than Or NAPTHINE - I will conclude my remarks 700 people over the next three years. By its actions with some comments from the Premier's press this afternoon, when it voted against a piece of release on this matter. It says: legislation that was an integral part of the completion of Parliament House, the Labor Party The Premier, Mr Kennett, said tonight that the ALP's deserted its bipartisan approach to the project. That decision to renege on its bipartisan support for the is an absolute and utter disgrace. As was pointed out $80 million completion of Parliament House has to me, the Land Conservation Council had scuttled the project. recommended the provisions allowing the quarry to be re-opened as needed. The people of western The government gave the go ahead for the completion Victoria, whom I happen to represent -- of Parliament House after John Brumby and the Labor Party gave unconditional bipartisan support for the Mr Batchelor - On a point of order, Mr Deputy project. Speaker, I did not raise the issue the minister is now addressing. I ask you to ask him to address the Tonight the Labor Party withdrew that unconditional, questions I raised - or to not address them at all. I bipartisan support by voting against sections of the asked about the waste and mismanagement Parliament House Completion Authority legislation. involved in the Chairman of the Parliament House ADJOURNMENT

1670 ASSEMBLY Wednesday, 4 December 1996

Mr Brumby knew from the very start that bipartisan The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! The house support was the foundation for this project proceeding stands adjourned. and yet tonight, without warning, he and his colleagues reneged on a previous commitment. House adjourned 11.10 p.m.

The reckless and politically expedient actions of Mr Brumby and the ALP have scuttled the project and deprived hundreds of construction workers from obtaining productive employment for the three years the project was scheduled to run. Mr Brumby and the ALP have again proved themselves to be the enemy of decent Victorians who want employment. SOLICITORS GUARANTEE FUND

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1671

Thursday,S December 1996 BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Adjournment

Mr W. D. McGRATH (Minister for Police and The SPEAKER (Hon. S. J. Plowman) took the chair Emergency Services) - I move: at 10.05 a.m. and read the prayer. That the house, at its rising, adjourn until tomorrow at SOLICITORS GUARANTEE FUND 1O.OOa.m.

Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) presented report Motion agreed to. for 1995-96. MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND Laid on table. EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

SCRUTINY OF ACTS AND Second reading REGULATIONS COMMITTEE Debate resumed from 14 November; motion of Unlawful Assemblies and Processions Act Mr REYNOLDS (Minister for Sport).

Mr RYAN (Gippsland South) presented issues Mr PANDAZOPOULOS (Dandenong) - The paper on Unlawful Assemblies and Processions opposition supports the bill. However, I will move Act 1958, together with appendix. an amendment relating to the pecuniary interest provisions. The opposition wonders whether, if it Laid on table. opposes this bill, the government will decide not to continue with its decision to try to repurchase the Hire Purchase Act 1959 World Congress Centre or whether the new museum being built at the Exhibition Building will Mr RYAN (Gippsland South) presented report on be abandoned. Obviously the Premier is in one of his Hire Purchase Act 1959, together with an appendix. moods. Therefore, anything about which we are concerned or which we desire to amend may be Laid on table. suddenly scrapped from the list of works.

Ordered to be printed. This bill creates the Melbourne Convention and Exhibition Trust to provide for the development, PAPERS promotion, management, operation and use of convention exhibition facilities in the cities of Laid on table by Oerk: Melbourne and Port Phillip, specifically the new Melbourne Exhibition Centre - otherwise known as Freedom of Information Act 1982 - Report of the Jeff's Kennels - and the Royal Exhibition Building, Attorney-General on the operation of the Act for the as well as parking facilities for the trust's events. It is year 1995-96 an attempt by the government - and we do not oppose it - to bring together under one trust the Members of Parliament (Register of Interests) Act management of the existing Royal Exhibition 1978 - Summary of Variations notified between 1 Building, that great building not far from this October 1996 and 4 December 1996 - Ordered to be Parliament, next door to which the new printed. controversial museum is being built. It includes the new Melbourne Exhibition Centre on the south bank HEALTH ACTS (FURTHER of the Yarra River. AMENDMENT) BILL It is interesting to note in the second-reading speech Returned from Council with message relating to that the new trust may also become the controller of amendment. the World Congress Centre to enable it to take an effective management approach to conventions and Ordered to be considered later this day. exhibitions in this state, the number of which is obviously fast increasing. The trust will also be able, MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

1672 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 with the approval of the minister, to acquire land The new museum is being built at the Royal and property in central Melbourne for car parking, Exhibition Building site and the land is the meeting rooms, and so on. It will have a minimum responsibility of the new trust and its predecessor of three and a maximum of seven members trust, the Melbourne Exhibition Trust. The new appointed by the Governor in Council. Their terms museum is controversial because of concern that it will be three years and their remuneration will be detracts from the character of the Royal Exhibition fixed by the Governor in Council. Building. The opposition supports the heritage listing of the Royal Exhibition Building. Besides The main contributor to the redevelopment of the being a unique older style exhibition building it is south bank where Southgate is now located was the histOrically important because it was the venue of Labor government. That government decided that the first Commonwealth Parliament. the new museum would be located on the new Exhibition Centre site, and works had commenced. Apart from the concern about the site being used for However, the coalition government decided to scrap the new museum, concern has also been expressed that project and relocate it to the old Royal about whether car parking will be adequate to meet Exhibition Building, which has aroused a lot of the needs of patrons. It is interesting to note that the passion and concern in the local community because bill will provide the trust with power to acquire land of the belief that the new museum is in the wrong for additional car parking in the vicinity of the Royal place. The opposition does not disagree with that Exhibition Building and/ or the new exhibition concern. One can now only wonder what the south centre. I can only envisage the reason for that bank would have looked like if the new museum provision is to satisfy car parking needs near the had also been located there to complement its Royal Exhibition Building specifically for the Southgate development. However, in the middle of museum. It will be interesting to see what land is all this is the huge monstrosity of the Crown Casino, acquired for additional car parking. which is much larger than anyone ever envisaged. That building takes away from the character that The Labor government deemed Southbank to be the could have been developed at Southgate. It will most suitable site for the museum because it had certainly take away trade from the central area of adequate car parking, was close to public transport Melbourne. and would open up the area to new and positive development. That should be compared with the The Melbourne Exhibition Centre has attracted a lot monstrous development occurring across the road at of positive comment. I was there recently for the the casino site. However, the government decided launch of next year's Australian Grand Prix, and it is the museum should be situated next to the Royal a wonderful facility. I still think the museum would Exhibition Building and that building could also be have been better placed on that site. However, we used partly for museum purposes. The government support the Exhibition Centre, and it is fulfilling a also said there was adequate public transport. useful purpose. The need for that type of facility is evident from the amoWlt of usage it has. Although the opposition will be monitoring what happens, I have grave concerns about whether car The Exhibition Centre was brilliantly designed. parking will be adequate. Museums attract When one drives down the West Gate Freeway, one considerable bus traffic and buses take up a lot of notices from the rear a structure that looks a little space. It will be interesting to see what additional like an aeroplane wing. It is also an attractive land is acquired. building when approached from the Spencer Street end. The centre was designed by the architects Conventions and exhibitions make a valuable Denton Corker Marshall, and has proved to be a contribution to the economy of Victoria - about major impetus to improving Melbourne as a $1 billion according to figures quoted in the destination for exhibitions, particularly when a large minister's second-reading speech. Certainly the amount of space is needed as, for example, for the industry is growing. At the moment the trust and last motor show at which all the exhibition space Melbourne Convention Centre Marketing, the was taken up by vehicles. There is a market for the management body for the two exhibition centres, centre, and we hope that it and the World Congress employ 50 full-time staff and 200 casual staff Centre, if the trust can purchase it, will make throughout the year. Melbourne a destination point for parties who are interested in holding exhibitions and conventions. The conflict of interest provisions in the bill are of concern because they make major changes to the MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1673 definition of pecuniary interests. I move the in BHP and still be a board member of the folloT..ving reasoned amendment: Melbourne Convention and Exhibition Trust without declaring a pecuniary interest. Although That all the words after 'That' be omitted with the view such a person could participate in debate and could of inserting in place thereof the words 'this house vote a local councillor with an interest of slightly refuses to read this bill a second time until a proper more than $2000 would be deemed to have a review is conducted into the pecuniary interest pecuniary interest and would not be allowed to vote. provisions governing members of the controlling That represents a massive contradiction, and that is bodies of all statutory authorities including the why the opposition says the government should proposed Melbourne Convention and Exhibition Trust, change its attitude. Maybe the government's with the view of tightening those provisions and intention is to appoint more corporate high-fliers as making them unifonn.' members of trusts. Perhaps this bill is designed to assist a specific person the government might have The reason for the amendment is concern about a in mind to appoint to the trust. major change in the pecuniary interest provisions. The bill provides that a declaration of the pecuniary The racing and alpine resorts acts refer to members interests of each member of the trust must be made. of boards or committees. If they have pecuniary Any conflict of interest must be reported and the interests of more than $1000 they must declare them member barred from voting on such matters. That is and they are not eligible to vote on matters. Once fine; it is standard. However, clause 14(6)(b) states again that is a huge contradiction. The opposition that a conflict of interest exists only when a member believes that is dangerous and inconsistent. That is of the trust has more than a 1 per cent shareholding why it has moved the reasoned amendment in a company. That is the first time we have seen requesting that the bill be redrafted until a proper that type of provision. review is conducted into the pecuniary interest provisions governing members of controlling bodies I refer to comparable acts such as the Local of all statutory authorities. The opposition believes Government Act 1989, the Racing Act 1958 and the there should be uniformity with existing acts. Alpine Resorts Act 1973. The opposition is concerned that the new definition of pecuniary The provisions should not be watered down. The bill interest arises from the growing habit of the needs tightening up if it is to be consistent with government of appointing corporate people to other acts. The opposition would certainly be boards rather than balancing boards by appointing concerned if this became the standard pecuniary either people with expertise or stakeholders. interest provision in all legislation governing Obviously the bill is designed to support a particular appointments to trusts, boards, committees and so individual. However, it certainly is extraordinary on. that someone with less than a 1 per cent shareholding is defined as not having a pecuniary The pecuniary interest provisions in the bill have interest. been watered down significantly. There is no upper limit listed in the current legislation, unlike the Local For instance, the Solicitor-General, Mr Douglas Government Act, the Racing Act or the Alpine Graham, who has $800 000 worth of BHP shares, Resorts Act. The Local Government Act actually could be a member of the trust because $800 000 refers to a person having an interest of more than amounts to less than a 1 per cent holding in that $2000, or more than 1 per cent of the shareholding, company. He would therefore be deemed not to whichever is the lesser amount - which in most have a pecuniary interest and would be eligible to circumstances will be $2000. The 1 per cent vote. The provision is inadequate. Major provisions in the Local Government Act, the Racing shareholders of BHP or Boral, two large companies, Act and the Alpine Resorts Act refer to people could have less than 1 per cent worth of shares in the having shareholdings in smaller companies worth companies, but could still have investments worth less than $1000 or $2000, depending on which of millions of dollars. Under the bill they would not be those acts you are talking about. deemed as having a pecuniary interest. There are similar provisions in the Melbourne Sports Under the Local Government Act if councillors have and Aquatic Centre Act and the Olympic Park investments in local interests worth more than $2000 legislation which are suitable and relevant. They do they are deemed to have a pecuniary interest. As I not have this new definition of a member of a trust said, someone could have a $1 million shareholding not being regarded as having a conflict of interest if MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

1674 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 his or her beneficial interest in a company that has being criticised because their members have not entered into contract with the trust does not exceed 1 declared any pecuniary interests. The only way to do per cent of the shareholding. As I said, that does not that is by having proper standards. The opposition apply to the Melbourne Sports and Aquatic Centre believes that the pecuniary interest prOvisions in the Act, which Parliament dealt with recently. This Olympic Park legislation or the Melbourne Sports definition is new: it has not been included when and Aquatic Centre Act are the most reasonable, but similar legislation has been introduced or amended. it is worth while looking at monetary figures as well.

The pecuniary interest provision in the bill is totally This government has appointed a number of its new and may be rewritten to suit the needs of the supporters who belong to the Liberal or National individuals the government may be intending to parties to various boards and trusts. Sometimes it appoint to the trust. Pecuniary interest is an gets a bit confusing, because you are not sure important issue because the people who are whether they are there as representatives of a appointed by governments to boards that are political party, representatives of the government or responsible for managing assets and collecting large representatives of the community. In those sums of revenue are in effect guardians of the public circumstances people are often sceptical about who interest. They must ensure that the assets are is speaking on whose behalf. Mr Graham Samuel, protected on behalf of the community and that for example, is both a member of the Melbourne revenue is both protected and maximised. Olympic Park board and an AFL commissioner. At Government should be very careful about watering the moment the Olympic Park board is having a bit down pecuniary interest prOvisions. of a blue with the Melbourne Greyhound Racing Association. The association no longer has access to There is growing concern in the community that this the site and is therefore negotiating its future. It has government is less concerned about pecuniary been told it would be a good idea to move to and interest and probity than its predecessors. The build a track at the Western Oval, in Footscray. opposition will keep a watching brief to see what Graham Samuel is also an active member of the happens. I hope this is not the start of a further Liberal Party. We do not know whether he is watering down of provisions such as those. If it is, representing the AFL in dealing with the problem at the public will rightly ask why the government is the Western Oval or whether he is representing the doing so and what it has in mind. Those questions Liberal Party in trying to solve a problem for the are important when we are talking about large assets government, given that the Melbourne Greyhound like the Royal Exhibition Building or the new Racing Association needs a new site because of the Exhibition Centre, which has cost a great deal of City Link works at Olympic Park. money to build and to maintain. It is not unreasonable to raise the problem. We are An honourable member interjected. talking about the pecuniary interests of the members of boards and trusts and the people or organisations Mr PANDAZOPOULOS - I have said buildings they represent. It will be interesting to see who is such as the new Exhibition Centre increase the appointed to the Melbourne Convention and opportunities of conventions and exhibitions coming Exhibition Trust. I would hate to see this become just to Victoria. another opportunity to appoint more Liberal Party members, cronies and supporters. The members of As part of any review of pecuniary interest the trust should have expertise in the convention provisions, it is worth considering setting minimum and exhibition industry, but the stakeholders should monetary sums such as those that are included in also be represented. the relevant sections of the Local Government Act, the Racing Act and the Alpine Resorts Act. That The board of the State Library should contain would ensure the stipulation of reasonable monetary stakeholder representatives - that is, librarians and figures rather than percentage shareholdings. people interested in libraries. But now, for the first Members of trusts and boards would be forced to time, there is no librarian on the board of the State declare their interests, which is important because Library. There is a need to balance the need for all the deliberations of trusts and boards have to be expertise and knowledge with the interests of open and accountable. stakeholders.

The government should try to minimise the The only concerns members of the opposition have possibility of the decisions of boards and trusts with the bill are the pecuniary interest provisions; M ELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1675 we strongly support the remainder of the bill. The can enjoy, although it is a shame it is on the wrong opposition supports the move to attract more side of the river and not in my electorate! The only exhibitions and conventions to Melbourne. We also blight on that beautiful area is the monstrosity offer bipartisan support for the coordinated known as Crown Casino. Had someone sat down management and marketing of those events using and worked out how to design something badly, I the two existing exhibition centres and the World do not think he or she could have done any better Congress Centre, if it is purchased. It will do much than the current casino facility. Be that as it may, the to continue to expand the industry, which is worth casino is there and that is where it will stay for a about $1 billion. This reasoned amendment applies long time. only to the pecuniary interest provisions, which we believe represent a major watering down of previous One is reminded all the time when driving around provisions. The opposition supports the rest of the the King Street bridge area of how grotesque the bill. casino is and, unfortunately, how much it has become a part of our lives. Unfortunately, Crown Mr COLE (Melbourne) - I support the reasoned Casino is becoming ubiquitous. Recently, the upper amendment and the concept of the Melbourne house member for North Western province the Exhibition Centre Trust. As the honourable member Honourable Ron Best presented a flag at a school, for Melbourne but also as someone who has been and when he asked why the flag had a crown on it actively involved in these issues for 11 years, some little kid yelled out, 'It represents Crown including three years on the Melbourne City Casino!'. That is how much this ubiquitous casino is Council, it is important that I express a view on the permeating our society, and I say that with no bill. degree of pride at all.

The matters raised by the shadow minister when The most important point is that the Southbank area, speaking to his reasoned amendment are very which is part of this bill, has been bad for the central relevant, and I refer to the terribly vexed question of business district, and that must be recognised by the how to deal with pecuniary interest. Recently when convention and exhibition trustees when they are that issue was being debated with regard to a local considering conventions to be staged in Melbourne government bill I raised the question of how to and undertaking the other important tasks with define direct and indirect pecuniary interests. That which the bill entrusts them. We must accept - I has not been defined adequately in this bill. Even think most people do - that our tourism industry is, worse, because of what is ostensibly very poor by and large, convention driven. The more drafting, this bill does not define clearly when conventions and exhibitions we can attract to people should exclude themselves from decision Melbourne the better will be our tourism industry. making and when people have committed a breach of pecuniary interest. This matter is so serious that I I have grave concerns, as do many people, about the suggest the government has another look at it, as it decision to put the museum not at the site of the did with the local government bill. Melbourne Exhibition Centre but alongside the Royal Exhibition Building in Carlton. That area is in I agree with the honourable member for Dandenong my electorate, so I speak with my heart on my sleeve that the 1 per cent threshold is a bit of a joke. When because I care very much about that part of Carlton. one considers some of the contracts available at The fact that the museum will be located in the exhibition centres, such as catering services, security Carlton Gardens will give the trust exceptional services and so on, one can see that the breadth and power, as was pointed out by the honourable depth of the pecuniary interests trust members may member for Dandenong, to create more car parking have is extraordinary. The threshold of 1 per cent is areas and acquire more Crown land should it be inadequate and insufficient, and I will address that needed. matter shortly. It is currently proposed by this government, and Plaudits should be given to the former Labor vehemently opposed by the opposition, that the government for its development of the Southbank Exhibition Building will have alongside it a dirty site, the Melbourne Exhibition Centre and the World great big shed to be known as the museum. It will be Congress Centre. Those achievements are not to be an ugly monstrosity. I have not heard of anyone in sneezed at. The development of Southbank has been my area who remotely supports the idea of putting a vexed issue. Southbank is a wonderful that shed alongside one of the greatest buildings development and a part of Melbourne which people every built in this country. The Royal Exhibition MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

1676 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

Building was built in the 18805 as part of the Great have been a part of my life for so long that I take Exhibition to mirror the exhibitions that were taking them a bit for granted. place in England at the time when the concept of exhibitions was an important part of the culture of One of Melbourne's great strengths will be ruined those days. It was built when the great land booms by the museum to be located on that site. I am sure were taking place and was probably one of the last the trust will be forced by economic necessity, and monuments to that era. probably pecuniary and vested interest given the nature of this government, to take even more Crown The beauty of the Exhibition Building will now be land. It will consider creating an even bigger car subjugated totally to a shed alongside it. If that is not park and taking on even more commercial enough to ruin the picturesque nature of that area, operations as the government becomes increasingly powers will now be given to a trust to acquire desperate to make money for a fledgling and failed Crown land, should it desire, and to take more of the economy. The philistines, such as the Minister for Carlton Gardens area. Worse still, the development Police and Emergency Services, will take control of the canopy above the shed, euphemistically and once again. His idea of art is that if sheep are not accurately known as Jeff's Shed, will block out the involved it is no good. So far as he is concerned, dome of the Exhibition Building. Sebastopol is the inner city!

When I was a member of the Melbourne Oty The minister and others like him in the government Council at a time when it was democratically have no understanding of the inner city and the elected - thankfully the current one is also need to preserve its gardens, and they bring about democratically elected - the council proposed to ridiculous situations. The inner-city people - develop the Exhibition Building and the Carlton particularly the people of Carlton - have fought a Gardens in a way that would have done us proud in rearguard action against this government with a any forum in the world. It proposed to restore the fantastic campaign to raise awareness of what has building to its original condition, including the been lost in that area. removal of all extraneous buildings and that awful glass structure. At least that has gone now, but it is Mr Reynolds interjected. to be replaced only by an uglier one. After the building was restored then, and only then, were the Mr COLE - This is on the bill. Haven't you read gardens to be redeveloped in their original form. it?

I am sure the honourable member for Geelong North Mr Reynolds - Yes, I have. would be pleased to hear that the council also proposed to restore the original cricket ground, Mr COLE - When did you read it? Can we have which was a beautiful ground with a lovely little that on the record? This is a first: the Minister for picket fence, just like those in rural England. It was Sport has actually read a bill. It is a great moment. proposed also to reduce the car parking area, if not This is an important bill. Members of the get rid of it altogether, to create one of the most government are the trustees in charge of the issue, beautiful garden and recreation areas in the country, and unless they call a halt and start considering the if not the world, alongside the magnificent issues that are important to the people, the situation Exhibition Building. Instead of that there will be an will only become worse for the people in my enormous shed of a museum, which could have electorate. Putting up a building as grotesque as the been located anywhere in the city of Melbourne. museum - Jef£'s shed - is a disaster for residents of the area and for the community in general. The original plan for the gardens was beautiful and would have seen thousands of people venture to the I must mention the issue of pecuniary interest; it Carlton Gardens regularly each summer to picnic would not be a Labor Party speech if it were not and enjoy themselves and to look at what is, when mentioned. It is almost as big as the Premier's all is said and done, Melbourne's greatest asset. performance last night and today. That would have Unlike the honourable member for Geelong North, to get an Oscar, wouldn't it? We don't want to get who is into horticulture and gardening, my idea of a stuck into him too much because he thinks we are backyard is bricks and cement, but I love the beauty upset about it and we had better let him keep that of Melbourne's gardens, and I particularly love the view. Exhibition gardens, to which I go regularly. They MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1677

I refer to clause 14 of the bill, which deals with other projects for our own benefit where there must pecuniary interests of trust members. The be bipartisanship. One cannot have bipartisanship honourable member for Niddrie is writing a thesis where there might be some political input. The bill on this topic! When he has finished it, it will lists no requirements for any expertise for probably cover just about everything this membership of the trust, but a pecuniary interest government does. The government has taken the would probably help! question of pecuniary interest - or lack of it - to a new level. There is no better example than the There is no requirement for a librarian to be a Solicitor-General, Mr Douglas Graham, QC, who member of the board. That is an admission that we kept his position, even though he was a shareholder do not think too much of libraries, and that can of BHP at the time he was making decisions probably be explained away by the fact that the affecting that company. I do not say he was a major Premier has never actually visited a library, so he shareholder, but he owned a lot of shares. When you has no knowledge of them. consider the size of BHP, I suppose the shares he owns amount to less than 1 per cent of the shares in An honourable member interjected. the company. He made a decision against the villagers of Ok Tedi - the Premier and others made Mr COLE - Can't he read? That is not true. I a big joke about them the other day so those have seen him put his finger along the line a few villagers do not seem to matter much - which, to all times. The government considered it was not intents and purposes, was perceived to be incorrect necessary to specify skills in the bill. It has left it because he had a pecuniary interest. When the open; otherwise it might narrow the range of mates notion was raised that he should have stood down, for whom it could find positions. There could not be done the right thing and not got involved, the a specific position for a librarian because there may government said his decision was a good one so it not be a librarian who is a member of the liberal did not really matter. Time and again we have seen Party. That would cause a terrible dilemma. that it does not matter. If a person has a pecuniary Clause 14 provides: interest and owns shares or is embroiled with a (1) 1£- particular company it does not really matter. (a) a member has a direct or indirect pecuniary We are grateful to the government for including in interest in a matter being considered or about the bill a clause entitled 'Pecuniary interest of to be considered by the Trust; and members'; it is surprising it considers it as being (b) the interest could conflict with the proper important these days. In fact, a pecuniary interest is performance of the member's duties- probably a prerequisite for getting a government job! I shall not be backward in coming forward and We addressed the question of direct and indirect point out that 60 per cent of local government pecuniary interest in debate on a local government commissioners appointed by the government were bill. I again go to the issue. Indirect pecuniary members of the Liberal and National parties and the interest has never been adequately defined and it is remainder were, by and large, fellow travellers. not defined in this bill. To my knowledge no case of People were not chosen for their ability; they were indirect pecuniary interest has ever been litigated, at chosen for who they were and the party with which least certainly not under the Local Government Act. they were associated. As we now know all too well, if a person gets onto the board that person will deliberate and make In the spirit of bipartisanship I do not know why this decisions regardless of whether he or she has an bill does not include a prOvision that there be some indirect pecuniary interest. Labor members of Parliament on the Melbourne Convention and Exhibition Trust - perhaps the A good example of indirect pecuniary interest is member for Melbourne, whose electorate -- where a person's wife, husband, daughter or whoever has an interest in something and does not Mr Hamilton - He would be chosen for his declare it. It is arguable that that is not an indirect expertise. pecuniary interest. I say that it is. The Liberal Party would say that it is okay, as we have seen in the case Mr COLE - That's right; his expertise in of the federal Treasurer, Mr Costello. It is okay for exhibitionism. Of course, there is no chance of that. his wife to have shares in the Commonwealth Bank That sort of bipartisanship exists only on even though he has such a seminal role in the controversial issues, such as building buildings and directions of the bank. I do not necessarily say that MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

1678 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 she had shares in the Commonwealth Bank, and I do government's view that it is all right to forget. The not care if she did. However, it is uncertain as to government is saying, in effect, 'If you didn't know whether in that case an indirect pecuniary interest at the time you made a decision to grant the biggest exists that should be declared. According to the catering contract ever known' - or whatever it Premier's analysis, if I were on the board and my might be - 'to the Melbourne Exhibition Centre, it partner had an interest in a contract that was coming doesn't matter at all.' It is just a case of, 'Oops, for the Melbourne Exhibition Centre, the partner's I didn't realise. I forgot'. right to have that interest could not be challenged and I would not have to declare a pecuniary interest. The term 'as soon as practicable after becoming That is an absolutely ludicrous situation. Nobody aware of the relevant facts' is also a problem. When suggests that a person's partner should not own is as soon as practicable? The day after? Five shares or have another involvement, but that person minutes after you have put up your hand and is obligated to declare the indirect pecuniary voted? Surely not! interest. That is not happening in many cases as that is said to not be an indirect pecuniary interest. Although it is a forlorn hope with this government, we need a code of ethics that outlines what people Of course other issues arise. For instance, what ought to do about pecuniary interests. Stating it in a happens if a person is a solicitor, a structural piece of legislation will be no defence at all. The only engineer or an accountant for some group that is defence I can proffer the government is that under coming before the board for some specific contract? previous Labor governments people - not Where that person acts for somebody, does he or she necessarily Labor Party members, but just have to declare an interest? This is a very difficult generally - violated pecuniary interest ethics. We question. Investigations I had undertaken some five had major problems with the question of pecuniary years ago about indirect pecuniary interests led to interests. There is nothing here to give me solace and the interpretation that such a person does not have make me think the trust will not act to give benefit to to declare an interest - that is, an indirect pecuniary individuals. It is bad enough that the trust will be interest does not include being the advocate for lobbied for the contracts worth millions of dollars somebody who is gaining some benefit or that will inevitably arise without the government contractual advantage from a council or from producing legislation that is so vague as to require anybody else. that a trustee:

I do not accept that interpretation but that is the ... as soon as practicable after becoming aware of the interpretation that will be used by this government relevant facts, must declare the nature of the interest to and by members of the trusts. I point out that if a the Trust. person is a trustee he or she is exactly that and is in a fiduciary relationship on behalf of all of us in the It will be a bit too late then! Clause 14(6) provides: operation of that organisation. If a trustee or anybody remotely associated with the trustee has an For the purposes of this section, a member is not to be interest, that interest must be declared at all times. If regarded as having a conflict of interest - a partner, for whatever reason, has shares or is (a) in relation to the supply of goods or services to the otherwise involved, that interest must be declared. member if the goods Or services are, or are to be, One concern is that clause 14(1)(a) provides that: available to members of the public on the same terms and conditions ...... the member, as soon as practicable after becoming aware of the relevant facts, must declare the nature of I do not accept that. It is nonsense to suggest that the interest to the Trust. trustees should be allowed to engage in awarding contracts in such a way. If that is not a major flaw in the drafting of legislation, I do not know what is. The bill will allow Secondly, and more importantly, as the shadow you to put up your hand to vote and discover minister pointed out a trustee will not be considered afterwards that you had a pecuniary interest; it was to have a conflict of interest if the contract: only then that you became aware of the relevant ... may benefit a company or other body in which facts. 'I didn't realise I had shares in BHP,' said the the member has a beneficial interest that does not Attorney-General about the time when she made her exceed 10/0 of the total nominal value of beneficial decision against prosecuting BHP for contempt - interests in that company or body. 'Oops, I forgot'. The bill is an expression of the MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSE?vffiL Y 1679

As was pointed out, that is a disgraceful provision those matters. The government believes a nod and a because the quantum is 1 per cent. The government wink are okay; it maintains that problems do not is effectively saying that it was okay for the exist if someone has a pecuniary interest. According Solicitor-General and the Attorney-General to make to the government it is all right to have some shares decisions about prosecuting for contempt because or some involvement in a company that your their interests in BHP were less than 1 per cent - decision will directly benefit or give preference to. that is, people who have less than a 1 per cent interest in one of the major companies can still vote I support the reasoned amendment moved by the in favour of that company getting the contract. honourable member for Dandenong. We must review the nature of pecuniary interests. The Maybe I come from a different time warp. Perhaps it problems in the bill mirror what has been happening is because I do not own shares and do not have in our state for the past four years. It is time it much involvement in profit-making ventures -- stopped. It is time we reflected on pecuniary interest rules and stopped giving people advantages that Mr Hamilton - Not a lot of money, either. they are not entitled to have.

Mr COLE - That's true, but more than enough to In conclusion, what we see being done to the get by on. I am dumbfounded that any government Exhibition gardens is disgusting. That will stand to could hold up its head after introducing such a condemn this government for time immemorial. provision. There should be no regard for the quantum of a person's interest. The trustees should Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - have no interest whatsoever. It should be I make some brief comments on the Melbourne lmacceptable for a person with even a 1 per cent Convention and Exhibition Trust Bill. They will be, interest to be involved in making a decision that will firstly, broad comments about the need for World directly benefit that company. Just as Doug Graham Heritage listing of the Royal Exhibition Building; and the Attorney-General should have excluded secondly, comments generally about tourism and themselves from the decision on the contempt the growth in the conventions and exhibitions proceedings, any trustee who is near a company that market; and, thirdly, brief comments about matters is making an application before the trust should that have been referred to in some detail by the remove him or herself from the decision. shadow minister, the honourable member for Dandenong. Heaven knows, there is enough of a mateship lobby group in this state as it is. If you know the minister The old Royal Exhibition Building is such a or you are a government mate the government will magnificent Melbourne landmark that in February appoint you. Isn't it enough that all the shonky of this year I set up a working party to prepare the businessmen and carpetbaggers around town will be bid to gain world heritage listing for the Exhibition appointed by the government to be members of the Building. I was joined by people of the standing of trust, anyway, and that Ronnie Walker et al will Emeritus Professor Colin Duckworth, who is a have access to the trustees when they want the cultural and literary historian and a Fellow of the contracts? The government wants to give them the Royal Society of Artists, Jean McCaughey, Bemard imprimatur of legislation to be able to do it. Smith and a number of others.

It is no wonder the government gets so irate when Our intention was to see this magnificent building the opposition raises pecuniary interest matters. As nominated by the federal government for World the Leader of the Opposition has pointed out many Heritage listing. If the bid were successful it would times, the tragedy is that conflicts of interest occur be the first nomination by the Australian but the government does not believe them to be government for World Heritage listing on what conflicts of interest. Members of the government could be called cultural grounds of a man-made consider it to be normal business practice. structure. We have plenty of places in Australia that have been put on the World Heritage list, including It is not acceptable. If a person has an interest of half Kakadu and so on, for their natural features but a per cent or one hundredth of a per cent, he or she nothing that has been listed for cultural or should not be voting on or have anything to do with man-made features. the decision about whether that company, group or individual receives some financial assistance or gain. The Exhibition Building was the first venue for the You must have the strictest and toughest rules for federal Parliament in May 1901 and it stands today MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

1680 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 as an international symbol of Australia's place as The Statement of Significance on the Register of the one of the world's oldest and most successful National Estate notes: democracies. Acceptance on the World Heritage list The Exhibition Building was erected as a symbol of would be a great way to help celebrate the centenary Victoria's international importance and epitomises of Federation in 2001. the optimism held by early Victorians. It is among the finest and largest classical style buildings in The building is of outstanding heritage value as an Australia and uses superb motifs and architectural and cultural asset. The dome, which is compositions. modelled on Florence cathedrat is a Melbourne landmark. It is one of the few surviving exhibition These include the dome, modelled on Florence buildings in the world. It is worthy of note that the Cathedral, and the deep-arched entrances. It is only other surviving exhibition building in the Joseph Reed's most distinctive classical edifice. world is the Eiffel Tower. The Exhibition Building is I went on to say in the letter: the only one of that era in the Southern Hemisphere. I believe the centenary of Federation celebrations in The building was completed for the International 2001 make it very timely to seek international Exhibition of 1880. In 1888 it hosted the Centennial recognition of the cultural significance of the Exhibition Exhibition to celebrate the centenary of what was Building through World Heritage listing. called European settlement in Australia. The annexe, which was added for the 1888 exhibition, made it the The original building is of outstanding heritage value largest building in the world, at any time, under one both as an architectural and cultural asset and merits continuous roof. The international exhibitions held listing on the World Heritage list. in 1880 and 1888 marked the commercial integration of the separate colonies of Australia that eventually In addition to the International Exhibition of 1880, the produced the Australian Federation. Federation Exhibition Building hosted the Centennial Exhibition of brought together six separate colonies that had 1888 to celebrate the centenary of European 'settlement' previously been engaged in fierce competition over in Australia. Annexes added for the 1888 exhibition trade and resources. made it the largest building in the world under one continuous roof. In February of this year I put forward the view that to help celebrate the centenary of Federation in the The international exhibitions of 1880 and 1888 marked year 2001 we should nominate and strongly support the commercial integration of the separate colonies of the World Heritage listing of the Exhibition Australia that have eventually produced the Australian Building. In addition, as we come to celebrate the Federation. centenary in 2001 I have also suggested that we should have a re-enactment of the sitting of the Federation brought together six separate colonies - federal Parliament in the old Exhibition Building. colonies that had previously been engaged in fierce Before I launched that bid in February this year I competition over trade and resources. had written on 29 January to the federal minister responsible for the environment, the Honourable Fittingly, the Exhibition Building was the venue for the John Fawkner, about the matter. The letter reads: first federal Parliament in May 1901. Some of the members who met in the Great Hall in 1901 had Dear Minister, travelled thousands of kilometres overland to Melbourne from Western Australia and Queensland for I am writing to urge the federal government to the parliamentary session. nominate the Royal Exhibition Building sited in the Carlton Gardens in Victoria for World Heritage listing. The Exhibition Building stands today as an international symbol of Australia's place as one of the The Exhibition Building was completed for the world's oldest and most successful democracies. International Exhibition of 1880. It is one of the few surviving exhibition buildings in the world, (the Eiffel To help celebrate the centenary of Federation in 2001 Tower in Paris is another). It was designed by the report of the Centenary of Federation Advisory Melbourne's greatest 19th century architect, ]oseph Committee, 2001 A report from Australia, suggests that Reed. the official opening of federal Parliament in 2001 take place in the Exhibition Building. MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1681

WorId Heritage listing would add an important make a submission to the Federal Government to international context to what would be a very exciting nominate the Royal Exhibition Building for World national celebration. Heritage Listing (Cultural). seek the support of the state and federal While the Australian government has nominated a governments and of the community for the number of natural sites for World Heritage listing to nomination. date it has not nominated a site for cultural heritage. conunission an appropriately qualified person to I will be forwarding further information about this prepare a detailed submission, supporting the proposal to you in the near future. nomination of the Royal Exhibition Building for World Heritage listing. Yours sincerely, I compliment the Melbourne City Council on that decision. Since the council has been under the I understand the former Labor federal government dynamic leadership of Mayor Ivan Deveson we have was intending to proceed with investigation and seen extraordinary life brought back to Melbourne. nomination of this building for listing. Had that We have seen prioritising of projects in the city and nomination been made the strongest possible case we have seen the council take a real interest in the could have been put to the World Heritage heritage of our magnificent buildings. It is to the Committee. I believe we would have had a good credit of the council that it has made the decision to chance of succeeding. support the nomination of the building for World Heritage listing and that it has drawn together a The future use of the building and the attraction of team to put together the bid. The council is Melbourne to tourists generally would be very much determined to put Melbourne on the world map. served by the Victorian government taking up with the. federal government the need for this building to In addition to my letter to Senator Fawkner earlier be mcluded on the World Heritage list. this year and in addition to Melbourne City Council's support, the Deputy Leader of the We are discussing the Melbourne Convention and Opposition, the honourable member for Richmond Exhibition Trust Bill. If one were trying to promote has supported. World Heritage listing of the Royal ' the Exhibition Building overseas as a convention Exhibition Building in numerous speeches in this venue and one could say that the building is one of place. He has also written to the federal environment the two remaining exhibition buildings anywhere in minister, Senator Robert Hill, about this matter. the world, it would add immeasurably to the range of attr~ctions one could promote. For example, we We can call on the new trust being established. under could Impress on overseas visitors the fact that the this bill to make World Heritage listing a priority. Exhibition Building has a Florentine dome that is the The trust is being given wide powers under the bill. I most distinctive in the Southern Hemisphere. There will be writing to the trust once it is established. I are very strong historic, cultural, heritage and would like to see the trust examine the issue of econ?mic reasons for having this building World Heritage listing. I would like to see the trust nommated for the World Heritage list. make the question of the nomination of the E~~ition Building for World Heritage listing a top I am pleased to say that recently the Melbourne Oty pnonty. Around Australia we have about a dozen Council debated this matter. The council's Planning sites that are on the World Heritage list. and Development Committee recommended as follows: Whenever a site, whether it be Kakadu, Uluru or parts of the Daintree rainforest, has been put on the ... that council seeks, with the full cooperation of the World Heritage list, it has proved. to be a most astute state government, nomination of the Royal Exhibition nomination in terms of economic, cultural and Building for World Heritage listing. environmental values. World Heritage nomination places the asset on the world map. Melbourne has It was therefore resolved as follows: missed out on some of those landmark decisions which would give us that extra tourism appeal that That the Planning and Development Committee we need. I call on the trust to make that a priority. recommend to council that it: There has been a huge growth in the exhibition and convention industry throughout Australia and MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

1682 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 worldwide. It is important that people Wlderstand other Parliaments in the Westminster system. that tourism is now the world's largest single Through this Parliament we should be setting a industry and the world's largest employer. It is proper standard for the behaviour we expect from responsible for aroWld 25 per cent of all the new jobs people in public pOSitions. The provisions in this being created in Australia at the moment. We have legislation are not good enough. That is why we seen extraordinary growth in tourism and an have moved the reasoned amendment. extraordinary change in the language. Only 100 years ago people who travelled aroWld the The bill gives the new trust very wide powers to world were called vagabonds; they were then called consider expansion options at the exhibition site, for travellers and we still call them travellers. example, which may result in land being purchased for use by the trust for car parking, meeting rooms Australia's conventions and exhibitions market is and other facilities. I am a passionate supporter of worth approximately $3 billion, so it is a huge the old Exhibition Building. It is common knowledge market. Based on the data we have at the moment, that I have not supported the choice of the old Melbourne is doing well in grabbing its share of the Exhibition Building for the siting of the new international congress and conventions market, but museum. There is a conflict of land use between the we need to do even better in the future. We do not two proposals; nevertheless the building is going have a tourism asset like the Great Barrier Reef, ahead. However, I hope no more of that magnificent although in Victoria we have a different and broader public place will be bulldozed for extra car parking range of tourism products. However, we do not space. Car parking should be underground or have a single icon like Kakadu, Uluru or the Great somewhere else and we should not eat into that Barrier Reef. We have to work harder at making sure precious and valuable parkland and gardens. I we get our share of meetings, conventions and caution the government about that: we should be exhibitions. vigilant. I hope the powers that are given to the trust will not be misused by taking away more vital I compliment the government and the tourism public space and land in this state which we industry on the work they are doing. Having said desperately need to keep. that, and I think the government understands this, I believe we have to work harder and faster in the The opposition will call for a division on the future to maintain and build our share of the reasoned amendment but will not oppose the industry because jobs and opportunities are legislation. As I said, we support many aspects of associated with it. the legislation and will work with the government to support the convention and exhibition industry in A number of conventions are being held in Victoria. Melbourne at the moment. 1hls morning I had a meeting with some officials from South Africa, Mr REYNOLDS (Minister for Sport) - I thank organised by the federal Department of Industry, the honourable members for Dandenong and Science and Tourism with the support of the Melbourne and the Leader of the Opposition for Victorian government. That is an excellent their contributions to this debate and their offers of conference for Melbourne, because it puts our city support in the main for the establishment of the on the map and gives us the opportunity to get the Melbourne Convention and Exhibition Trust. The message about Melbourne to the world. That is one Leader of the Opposition and the honourable example of a convention that is under way in member for Melbourne spoke of the heritage and Melbourne at the moment. The more we have of that historical value of the Exhibition Building as we type of conference in the future the better. Again I know it in the north-east of the city, alongside which congratulate the people responsible for bringing the is being constructed the future museum. I do not convention together. disagree with their general views. They, like me, pass that area when travelling to this place. The opposition has moved an amendment on the Therefore, we have a great opportunity every day to conflict of interest provisions in the bill. The appreciate what a magnificent building it is. amendment has been eloquently supported by the honourable member for Dandenong, the shadow When I attended the Commonwealth Parliamentary minister for sport and recreation, and the Association meeting at Westminster in 1987, Victoria honourable member for Melbourne. The conflict of was one year away from being 200 years old and we interests prOvisions in this bill are shoddy at best. were standing in a building at Westminster that was They set a poor example and are out of step with a thousand years old. Australia has nothing to MELBOURNE CONVENTION AND EXHIBITION TRUST BILL

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remember from 200 years ago and very little to House divided on omission (members in favour remember from the period between 150 and 200 vote no): years ago. Buildings like the Exhibition Building and the one we are in now must be cherished and looked Ayes, 51 after. Andrighetto, Mr McNamara, Mr Ashley,Mr Maughan,Mr The opposition's proposed amendment to the Brown,Mr Napthine, Dr second-reading motion relates to the variation of the Burke, Ms (TeIler)Paterson, Mr pecuniary interest provisions. I assure the three Clark,Mr Perrin,Mr honourable members who spoke that the people CoIeman,Mr Perton,Mr appointed to the trust will be the best available for Cooper,Mr Pescott,Mr the positions. Dean,Dr Peulich, Mrs Dixon,Mr Phillips, Mr The honourable member for Melbourne referred to DoyIe,Mr PIowman, Mr A.F. appointments to the board of people from specific Finn, Mr (Teller) ReynoIds, Mr areas of expertise or professions. Speaking as one Gude,Mr Rowe,Mr who appoints members to several boards within my Henderson, Mrs Ryan,Mr portfolio, I have found it very difficult to appoint Honeywood, Mr Savage,Mr people from specific interest backgrounds where it is Jasper,Mr Shardey, Mrs laid down in the legislation that I must do so, Jenkins,Mr Smith, Mr E.R because they may be inclined to make decisions Kilgour,Mr Smith, Mr IW. bearing in mind the representation they provide to Lean,Mr Spry, Mr the board or trust. It is much more sensible and Leigh,Mr Steggall, Mr workable to appoint people who have a spread of Lupton,Mr Tehan,Mrs expertise and knowledge but who are independent McArthur, Mr Thompson, Mr rather than representing parochial interests. McCall,Ms Traynor,Mr McGill,Mrs Treasure, Mr All three speakers for the opposition raised matters McGrath, Mr W.D. Wade,Mrs concerning the pecuniary interest provisions. The McLellan, Mr Wells,Mr bill provides that a trust member must declare the Maclellan, Mr nature of any direct or indirect pecuniary interest in a matter that is being considered or about to be Noes, 29 considered by the trust if the interest conflicts with AndrianopouJos, Mr HuJ1s,Mr the proper performance of the member's duties. It Baker,Mr Kosky,Ms also provides that declarations must be tabled at BatcheIor, Mr Langdon,Mr meetings of the trust and a member who has a Bracks, Mr Leighton, Mr (Teller) conflict of interest in the matter must not be present Brwnby,Mr Lim, Mr during deliberations on the matter unless the trust Carneron, Mr l..oney,Mr directs otherwise, and that person is not entitled to Carnpbell, Ms Maddigan, Mrs vote. Carli, Mr (Teller) MicaJlef, Mr CoIe,Mr Mildenhall, Mr I believe the bill has adequate mechanisms and Cunningham, Mr PandazopouJos, Mr safeguards to deal with any issue of conflict of Dollis,Mr Seitz, Mr interest by trust members. However, as the minister Garbutt, Ms Sheehan,Mr handling the bill in this house I shall make sure that Gillett,Ms Thwaites, Mr the points raised by the three members are raised Haermeyer, Mr WiIson,Mrs with the relevant minister responsible for the bill in Hamilton, Mr the other place so that he has an opportunity to consider their remarks while the bill is between here ~endmentnegatived. and the other place. Motion agreed to.

Read second time. PIPELINES (AMENDMENT) BILL

1684 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

Remaining stages Eastern Gas Pipeline. Because of that potential problem, the proponent was reluctant to proceed. Passed remaining stages. The amended Pipelines Act will allow for the PIPELINES (AMENDMENT) BILL compulsory acquisition of land by the permittee. It will also allow the acquisition of Crown land by Second reading application to the minister to facilitate the establishing of an easement. The bill will ensure that Debate resumed from 14 November; motion of the compulsory acquisition process applies to both Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Agriculture and private and Crown land. The government, rather Resources). than the applicant or the permittee, will be the agent of compulsory acquisition. Both are important Mr LONEY (Geelong North) - The opposition aspects of facilitating the native title welcomes and supports this simple but significant right-to-negotiate process. bill because of the principles that underlie it. Although the government will become the agent for This bill has been introduced because of the Eastern compulsory acquisition, it should be noted that the Gas Pipeline project, which is important to Victoria. permittee - in this case BHP - will still be That major project will allow Bass Strait gas to be responsible for all payments and agreements arising piped through the north-east of Victoria and into out of the right-to-negotiate process and the New South Wales and beyond. It requires major compulsory acquisition of private land. Under the investment in a new infrastructure project, which bill the government will be fully indemnified for all will produce benefits both for Victoria and for other those payments and agreements. states. Compensation for native title claims will be able to The bill allows the Eastern Gas Pipeline project to be made in forms other than money. For example, proceed, because it deals with potential problems the right-to-negotiate process may determine that an related to the commonwealth Native Title Act and appropriate manner of compensation may be native title claims. It is important that Victorian employment opportunities for AbOriginal people. If legislation should conform with the federal act. that were acceptable to the permittee as well, that is Broken Hill Proprietary Co. Ltd, (BHP), which is the what would happen. Compensation could also be a proponent of the Eastern Gas Pipeline, was not mix of money and other arrangements. That will be prepared to risk its investment in the project unless allowed for under this bill, and the opposition Parliament passed a native title amendment. That believes that is right and proper. was the genesis of the bill. The bill ensures that the government is the agent of The bill also complements but does not quite mirror the compulsory acquisition. That is important legislation that has already been passed by the New because that triggers the right-to-negotiate process. South Wales Parliament to achieve the necessary Currently, agreements made with permit-holders native title amendment. As I said, the bill is under compulsory acquisition arrangements result necessary because it is the only way to ensure the in about 97 per cent acceptance of the offers made by Pipelines Act was consistent with the the person or organisation carrying out the right-to-negotiate prOvisions in the commonwealth compulsory acquisition. That indicates that the Native Title Act - which is more simply known as methods currently used for valuations are the Mabo act - and to allow BHP to proceed with reasonably accurate to ensure a fair return for the the gas pipeline project. people from whom the land is being acquired. The bill accepts the important principle of just Those provisions are based on the principle that all compensation, which also applies in the land must be treated in the same way. The problem commonwealth native title legislation. Victoria had was that, under the Pipelines Act, private land and Crown land were treated As I said, the bill is complementary to but does not differently. If that had not been changed it would quite mirror the New South Wales legislation. It is have been inconsistent with the Native Title Act and different in one important respect - namely, the could have created a problem in acquiring any minister cannot allow an application for compulsory native title interests to establish an easement for the acquisition to be lodged until he is satisfied the right-to-negotiate process has been undertaken. The PIPELINES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1685 opposition welcomes and fully supports that effectively limiting the minister's right to issue such provision, and it is to the government's credit that it a notice. That proviSion is particularly significant has included that provision which is not in the New and welcome. We are not saying this minister or any South Wales bill. This important aspect of the bill other minister would act against the interests of underlies very well the remaining principles native title claimants, but to have that safeguard in adopted in the bill. the bill is very welcome.

Although the government may have been forced The provisions of the bill make it a landmark piece into introducing this bill through the mechanism to of legislation in this state, and the opposition which I referred earlier - the need to protect and welcomes it. Although it may not have been the indemnify BHP's investment in the Eastern Gas government's original intention to introduce the bill Pipeline and the fact that similar legislation had and other factors have led to that, it has produced been passed in New South Wales - the opposition positive legislation that is worthy of support from believes this bill is a very positive approach to native both sides of the house. title. The opposition has no difficulty in supporting the bill. It is particularly welcome because a number Mr HAMILTON (Morwell) - I am not used to of years ago a Victorian version of native title my colleague the member for Geelong North being legislation was passed in this place in an attempt to so brief! I join the shadow minister in support of this pre-empt the commonwealth act. We are pleased bill. As he said, this is landmark legislation, and it is that in this bill the government fully recognises and a landmark day for the Koori people in this state. supports the provisions of the commonwealth native The bill means the Victorian state government has title legislation. formally recognised native title. Until now, 5 December 1996, there has not been an official The bill is quite simple but its significance is great. recognition that native title is an important part of The recognition of the way native title claims should not only Victorian legislation but Australian be treated is very important, and the bill legislation. The opposition welcomes this legislation encompasses a number of factors. The act currently because it lays down the ground rules. permits the compulsory acquisition of land for pipeline easements, but the Governor in Council I will not be so generous as to say that the may grant an easement or authority to construct a government did this from altruistic motives. There is pipeline on Crown land. That may be prejudicial to no way this legislation would have come before the the interests of native title holders or claimants, and house if it were not for a great deal of pressure from it is contrary to the commonwealth act. The bill the big Australian - BHP - and its partners in the ensures the provision currently applying to private Eastgate consortium from Canada. If they had not land will apply also to native title land. put pressure on the government there is not a doubt in my mind nor in any of the minds of Victorian The bill adopts the right-ta-negotiate process, which Kooris that this legislation would not have been is a formal term in the commonwealth act, and introduced. identifies a particular process that must be followed. We support the adoption of that right-ta-negotiate The pipeline would not have proceeded without this process and look forward to its having a wider legislation. The private developers of the pipeline application in Victoria, perhaps through other were not prepared to take the risk of a future native legislation. title claim being made through federal legislation after the pipeline was constructed with the future of The bill also provides that compulsory acquisition the pipeline being put at risk. Given BHP's history of must be by the government and not the dealing with indigenous peoples, it deserves credit permit-holders, as is the case under the current act, in this case because it recognised it should ensure to ensure that native title claims can be triggered. It that it complied not only with the letter of the law provides that the native title principle of just but also the spirit of it. It could not have foreseen compensation must apply to compensation paid as a that the Howard government in Canberra would result of compulsory acquisitions and that that change the Native Title Act to let them off the hook. compensation may be paid in forms other than monetary compensation. It also provides that notice It is the plain and simple fact that the bill is not the to compulsorily acquire cannot be lodged in Victoria result of altruism; it is a business decision. That in until the minister is satisfied the native title itself is a great pity because this state should have right-ta-negotiate process has been undertaken, adopted a bipartisan approach to issues such as PIPELINES (AMENDMENT) BILL

1686 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 native title. The prehearings for the native title claim, to Canadian legislation; I do not know enough about to which the government is an objector, by the Yorta the details of Canadian legislation to do a Yorta people in the northern parts of Victoria are comparison. Perhaps that says something about currently proceeding. This government has never what has happened to Australian culture over many said it supports native title. The closest it has got to years compared to the culture in Canada. A great even thinking about supporting native title was in deal of thought was given by the Koori people to the its response released yesterday to the Royal legislation based on the record of Eastgate pipelines Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody in dealing successfully with indigenous peoples. when it supported the need for some economic independence. That was a recommendation of the As with all legislation, the proof of the pudding will commission, and the government announced it be in the eating. The opposition and many interested would support that in principle. In practice the parties will be watching to ensure that not only do government's record is absolutely outrageous. the negotiations guaranteed by this legislation take place but that they take place in good faith and that The construction of the pipeline is a bit of a mystery the outcomes are advantageous to the Gunai nation if one remembers the history of the reserves of in Victoria and southern New South Wales. They are energy in this state. A little more than 10 or 15 years the indigenous owners of the Crown lands the ago we were told that the reserves of natural gas in subject of the native title negotiations. Bass Strait were due to dry out by 2005 so we would have to start looking for alternative energy To the credit of the government and BHP, at this resources. At that time there was no plan to pump stage there has been a very careful approach to natural gas to Sydney. It seems to me the experts ensure the bill does not raise the hackles of the who talk about energy reserves tend to have a rednecks who say native title claims will be made on flexible approach, to put it nicely. They appear to be all the farms, towns and everything in between. That more interested in how well they can con the market element has been kept out - thank goodness. by jacking up the prices on a supposedly precious resource than making any real assessment of the I give much credit to an elder of the Gunai nation, natural gas reserves close to Bass Strait. A number of Mr Albert Mullett, who was appointed - I think bores have been plugged where there has been some with some misgivings, because of his sincerity and exploration for natural gas supplies on shore, as well integrity - by the consortium to be the Koori liaison as off shore. officer. Albert's job was to talk to the various indigenous groups that own the land along the Let us be quite open about this: BHP will not build a pipeline and the various clans that lay claim to the natural gas line to Sydney unless it is assured it has land the pipeline traverses. He ensured that reserves that will enable it to supply the resources to consultation took place and that information was Sydney at least long enough for it to make a provided. That occurred over, I think, two years and substantial profit from the construction of the it has been extremely successful. pipeline. BHP is not Father Christmas, as it has demonstrated so often, and it is not doing this out of The consortium was pretty smart when it appointed the goodness of its heart. Albert Mullett to the job because I do not think there is anybody in the entire East Gippsland area who When the legislation was discussed with a number would do it better - in fact, many would not do it of representatives of Koori organisations there was as well. Albert is not only an astute negotiator, he is great concern that BHP was one of the proponents of also an astute politician who understands the the scheme. BHP's record is not all that good when politics of these things. That has been an important dealing with native title, and had CRA been one of part of the smooth introduction of this investment in the proponents after its exercises up at Weipa and Australia. It is a profit-making activity for the the way it treated native title and the indigenous company, otherwise it would not be doing it - or at owners of the land, I doubt whether agreement least their shareholders would not be very happy would have been reached at all. about it.

What the consortium had going for it was the In considering the background of the bill, I ask the involvement of the Canadian pipelines company, Minister for Tertiary Education and Training to pass Eastgate. It is reliably reported to me that Eastgate on our thanks to the minister and to the has a far better record than Australian companies in departmental officers who gave us a briefing. We dealing with indigenous peoples. That may be due were pleased that only officers were present and that PIPELINES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1687 a minder was not sent along. That says something I shall refer to some matters that are additional to about the integrity of the opposition members who those raised by the honourable member for Geelong were briefed, of course, as much as it says something North. The technical detail has been well covered by about the officers of the department. We were given the honourable member, so I will spend a couple of frank answers and the officers got back to us on a moments reflecting on requests for non-monetary couple of questions we raised. compensation as provided for by proposed new section 22(c). That inclusion from the federal Native We contacted and talked to those we believe are the Title Act recognises something extremely important interest groups, including members of the Native about Aboriginal culture in this country. Aboriginal Title Unit the Aboriginal communities in Victoria people, tmlike the materialistic and monetaristic have established to negotiate and work through invaders of this country, place great store on things native title claims. We talked to the Aboriginal Legal other than money that are very important to them. Service, the Aboriginal Advancement League and all the cooperatives representing Aboriginal groups The provision allows for compensation that is not along the pipeline in Victoria. We didn't go to New necessarily monetary to be paid for the use of native South Wales, of course. We then spoke to the people title lands. That provision is extremely important not we regard as the key players in Aboriginal politics in only in spirit but also in practice. It is to be hoped the state, who also are very important. If the bill was that when negotiations take place - and they will, to be passed in a bipartisan manner, it was of course, under the new legislation - they will important that everybody be kept informed and that include consideration of such matters as people realised what the proposed legislation was employment opportunities, especially for young about. Kooris. From reports published yesterday we know that young Kooris are the ones who are most likely The commitment to developing the pipeline is of to be arrested and convicted on charges. We hope interest. The pipeline would not be in the process of employment and training opportunities will be being developed unless there was a fair level of provided and their provision will be undertaken in confidence about the privatisation of the gas good faith and, more importantly, will not cease industry and a conviction that the gas supplies in when the pipeline construction is finished. We hope this state will not be wholly state owned. When the there will be some ongoing commitment to and natural gas fields were first explored - which might recognition of the importance of this intrusion of have been in Dick Hamer's time, if not Henry white man's design on native lands. That Bolte's - an outstanding agreement was negotiated commitment to non-monetary compensation and the on the supply of natural gas. Former state Liberal support of indigenous people should not exist just ministers negotiated a strong agreement for the during the construction of the pipeline, which is a supply of natural gas from the Bass Strait gas fields. relatively short time, but should be ongoing. I know One of the key elements of the agreement is the such negotiations will be undertaken. comparatively low price of natural gas in Victoria for many years. That has enabled many industries Finally, I again appeal to the government, having that are dependent on the natural energy resource to taken this magnificent step in producing this develop. proposed legislation, to pick up the spirit of it, which in my mind is fundamental to the spirit of Let us again warn the people that the privatisation reconciliation in this state and say, We now of the gas industry will, firstly, see the end of recognise native title. Let us as a government get in government control of prices, so consumers will pay and support native title claims' because they are on a great deal more for gas. Indeed, some of the Crown land. If we are serious about reconciliation electricity companies that are large users of gas will and about prOviding some economic independence find that when the agreement expires and Gas and for the Koori people of Victoria, let us make sure Fuel is privatised the inevitable result will be higher that the native title claims are not only made but are costs for the consumers. All the people who live near supported and are successful. If one wants to the pipeline route and are anxiously and expectantly discover where the real wealth in this country came waiting to be hooked up to the natural gas supply from, one need look no further than the landed must be made aware that the prices currently paid aristocracy and the graziers. Their riches and by Victorians will rise substantially because the gas fortunes have been made from the land, which was industry will be privatised. As I said before, BHP is stolen. not doing this work for fun. FISHERIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

1688 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

If the government really wants to do something for been closed to scalloping. In fact, over the past five Aboriginal people in the state, it should not only years there have been only two or three seasons recognise that there is such a thing as native title, as when scalloping has been permitted in Port Phillip BHP has done, but ensure that it is supported. We Bay. would then really be doing something to further the cause of all the Koori peoples throughout Victoria, It is also important to note that the scallopers not just those in East Gippsland who are covered by themselves have now, albeit somewhat reluctantly, the bill. accepted the government's decision to close Port Phillip Bay to further professional scallop fishing. MI5 HENDERSON (Minister responsible for The closure of Port Phillip Bay to scalloping is Aboriginal Affairs) - I acknowledge the accepted by this side of the house for a whole range contribution of the honourable member for Morwell. of reasons, not the least being environmental I am pleased the opposition is supporting the considerations. We are aware of the effects of Pipelines (Amendment) Bill, which is very dredging of scallop on the bottom of the bay. There important. I wish it a speedy passage. is some evidence that in recent times continued scalloping has led to lower scallop growth rates. Motion agreed to. While the season immediately after the last closure was good, since then there has been a noticeable Read second time. deterioration in the size of scallops being taken out of Port Phillip Bay. We are also of the view that there Remaining stages are a number of alternatives to scalloping in Port Phillip Bay. Passed remaining stages. However, as a consequence of the closure all holders FISHERIES (AMENDMENT) BILL of Port Phillip Bay scallop licences will lose their entitlements. That is a necessary part of the bill, Opposition amendments circulated by Mr LONEY which makes provision for those affected to receive (Geelong North) pursuant to sessional orders. payments for the cancellation of their licences. It is important to note that the licence equates to the Second reading livelihood of these people. We are talking not just about the closure of a fishing bed but also the Debate resumed from 14 November; motion of removal of people's livelihood. Some people are Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Agriculture and affected far more than others. Resources). Approximately 20 per cent of the 84 licensees The ACIlNG SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - affected hold licences to take scallops from Port Order! Before I call on the honourable member for Phillip Bay only, and about two-thirds of those Geelong North, I inform the house that I am of the licences are held in Geelong, so there is a particular opinion that the second reading of this bill requires local effect. This bill amounts to the closure of the to be passed by an absolute majority. livelihood of the people who are licensed for Port Philip Bay only. Those who hold what are referred Mr LONEY (Geelong North) - The Fisheries to as all-water licences are affected in various ways. (Amendment) Bill gives effect to the government's Depending upon the other entitlements they hold, previously stated intention of closing Port Phillip they will be able to fish other scallop beds. Different Bay to professional scallop fishing from not later values come into play according to which licences than 31 December 1997 or an earlier date if the scallopers hold. agreement can be reached. The people who hold licences for Port Phillip Bay The opposition supports the move to close Port only will have varying abilities to re-establish Phillip Bay to scallop fishing and believes it is in the themselves after their licences are cancelled. They best interests of the bay and users of the bay. The are of different ages. Some are probably nearing opposition notes that scallop fishing in the bay has what would be regarded as normal retiring age and been a source of considerable argument for some some are much younger. They have different levels years, particularly the effects of different types of of skills and education, and that will affect their dredging. As a result of concerns about those effects ability to take up other employment. Most of them the bay has for a number of seasons in recent history have fished professionally for the best part of their FISHERIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1689 lives. It is their profession; it is the job they know future problems for them. During the briefings - I and the skill they have acquired and developed. The think the minister may even have referred to it in the cancellation of their licences is of serious concern to second-reading speech - we were told that the them. It is a matter they wish to see handled with principle of fair and reasonable payment is being due consideration to the issues I have raised. applied. Both sides accept that this is the correct principle to adopt. The government says it is fair and In developing this bill the government has taken a reasonable payment and the industry says that fair reasonable amount of time to attempt to consult and reasonable compensation should be applied. with the industry. The government set up a working However, because there is a wide disparity between group comprising representatives from fisheries, the the abilities of various licence-holders to cope with legal field, the Department of Premier and Cabinet, the effect the closure will have on their future and the Treasury and economists. livelihoods, there is concern that the bill, which allows the minister to determine the amount to be That working group met and consulted with the paid and does not provide a formula for negotiation industry. I also thank the minister for having or appeal following the determination, may have a organised a briefing for the opposition at short detrimental effect on some people whose licences notice. He made people accessible to us very will be cancelled. I am not suggesting that that is quickly. I also thank him for accepting our request intended. for a briefing and information, and for looking after us at the briefing. However, depending on the amount paid, some licence-holders may have residual debts related to The consultation included two full-day sessions with their businesses after the payout of their licences. representatives of the industry, including the They may have had to make arrangements with Victorian Fishing Industry Federation, financial institutions to ensure the continuation of scallop-fishing groups and a number of individual their livelihoods and so they may be left with scallopers, some of whom, I understand, attended residual debt through not receiving enough to pay with their legal representatives. That part of the their liabilities and move on with their lives. consultation process was carried out reasonably well. Other operators have all-water licences. However, The bill has been separated from the major fisheries some have boats suitable only for Port Phillip Bay bill - the Fisheries (Further Amendment) Bill - and the legislation would require the boats to be which will probably be read a second time in this substantially upgraded or altered to allow the place tomorrow and will lie over until next year to operators to use the all-water licences. It seems that, give effect to this issue and to bring forward the on the basis of the figure of $10 million that has been closure of the bay to commercial dredging for set aside and the 84 people to be paid out, there may scallops. not be sufficient funds to allow them to pursue those purposes. A number of issues arise out of this proposal. As I said, the opposition has no problem with the The industry has compared the prOvisions in the bill decision to close the bay to scallop fishing. However, to those that apply in the principal act and points to it would like to raise some concerns about the way the way an adjusting fishery is dealt with under that licences are cancelled and licence valuations act. Upon declaration of an adjusting fishery under determined because the industry has some concerns the principal act, the provisions of the Land about the payment arrangements for licence Acquisition and Compensation Act come into force cancellations. It is important to acknowledge that to determine the payment and provide a mechanism they are payments for licence cancellations rather for resolving disagreements. The minister pointed than compensation arrangements, which gives a out in his response to the Scrutiny of Acts and much broader interpretation of what should be paid. Regulations Committee that this is not directly These are not payments in compensation for comparable to a declaration of an adjusting fishery. potential loss of earnings or similar matters; they are It may not be directly comparable; however, how payments for value of licence, which is a little one determines fair and reasonable compensation different. and what happens in the case of disagreement over fair and reasonable compensation is comparable. It The industry is concerned that the payment is that issue about which the industry is concerned. arrangements may well leave some members of the industry with residual debt and hardship and create FISHERIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

1690 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 he industry has told me that it does not necessarily be one and the same it could create problems if a want to push for a return of the right which is being scallop-licence holder with a boat had an accident. If removed by this bill to take Supreme Court action, the boat sank the licence-holder would have a or even to provide a major process that would slow licence but no boat. As the bill refers to the boat down the ability of people to accept payments. It owner receiving the payment a legal question could wants a provision that would allow the fishermen arise as to whether a person with a licence but no and the scallopers who believe that the offer made boat could be denied compensation on the basis that by the government is fair and reasonable - the that person is no longer a boat owner. During the industry suggests that would be a large majority of committee stage I will move an amendment to them - to accept the offer and be paid out. change the reference to boat owner to licence-holder. However, those who disagree with the amount of It will make no difference to the prOvisions in the bill the payment should be able to negotiate with the but will clean up a potential difficulty in the view of government and have the results of the negotiations the industry. adjudicated. The opposition believes that to be a fair and reasonable request. Although the opposition does not oppose the bill it seeks clarification about some matters. If the bill The opposition intended to move an amendment but goes to the committee stage it will move that would have required a message from the amendments. If not, I hope the government will Governor because it involved an appropriation. The address the review of some of the appeal opposition therefore asks the government to further mechanisms when the bill is between here and reconsider a determination on disagreements over another place. the value of licences and at some future stage to amend the bill to allow for that right. Although it Mr SPRY (Bellarine) - I am involved with the understands that cannot be done during the passage bill because my electorate has three traditional of the bill through either this place or the other, it fishing ports that support a number of scallop seriously asks the government to reconsider its fishermen. The phasing out of licences for scallop decision not to allow any form of negotiation over fishing on Port Phillip Bay has caused considerable the amount of the licence. The opposition believes concern to them. Some 84 scallop licences entitle that could be a limited form. holders to fish Victorian waters, and 18 licensees have their activities confined to the waters of Port It may be that the appeal right provisions of the Phillip Bay. There are 19 licence-holders on the Land Acquisition and Compensation Act could be Bellarine Peninsula, some of whom are entitled to similarly applied. The opposition would certainly dual licences to fish inside and outside the bay. The welcome an amendment by the government to that figures of the honourable member for Geelong effect. It does not believe it would involve a large North were correct: 10 licence-holders are based in number of people challenging their payments. The Geelong. For the record there are 35 licence-holders industry has reluctantly accepted that most of the in Melbourne, at least 12 on the Momington scallop licence-holders would be prepared to take Peninsula and 8 from East Gippsland. the money and move on. To give members some idea of the scale of the The industry is also concerned that the bill requires industry, in Port Phillip Bay the average annual licences to be cancelled and then reissued. Although catch is something like 500 tonnes. In recent times I have no doubt the minister intends to reissue all the best year's catch was at least 1600 tonnes. The current entitlements the bill does not ensure that that fishery commenced in the bay in the early 1960s and is the case. If the bill goes into committee the in those early days there were something like opposition proposes to move an amendment that 300 boats fishing the bay at various times. They will ensure that the new licence has the same came from all parts of Victoria, some even from entitlements and conditions as the cancelled licence. across Bass Strait. In 1968 the Fisheries Act limited entry to the scallop beds of Victoria to the current Mr Spry - It is implied. numbers and limited the entry to Port Phillip Bay.

Mr LONEY - I assume that interjection means Over the past few years there has been a perception the government would have no problem with the by residents adjoining the bay and also from amendment I propose. The industry further advised recreational fishers that fish habitats have been that the bill refers to the boat owner rather than the damaged. Before the last election the government licence-holder. Although one would assume them to decided, after balancing all views and interests, to FISHERIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

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ban scallop dredging from Port Phillip Bay re-establish themselves in any manner at all in the permanently. I pay tribute to the industry generally. fishing industry, let alone survive financially. In the Despite the hardship this decision would obviously short time available, I point out that I support the cause scallop fishermen they accepted the decision bill and am conscious of the hardships those people by and large. The controversy was confined to the are facing and their urgent need to have their exact amount of the buy-back figure. problems resolved as soon as possible.

It must be acknowledged that a few maverick Some of the old established families from the fishermen dredged the bay from time to time and Bellarine Peninsula who have been engaged in the damaged some of the old wrecks. Also from time to industry for some time include the Cull, Wiffon, time a congregation of boats dredged a specific area Stewart, Swarzenburg, Le Marquand, Rigby, Mayne and the visual damage was one of the influencing and Proebstl families, just to name a few. Those factors in the government's decision to close the people need to be certain of their futures in the fishery. Nevertheless I pay tribute to the industry for fishing industry. For that reason, the earliest possible doing its best to regulate its fishing activity. resolution of the issues surrounding the buy-back scheme is therefore imperative. The process of determining the buy-back figure has already been explained to some extent in Geelong. Mr DIXON (Dromana) - I begin by saying that, The minister put more detail into it when he like a lot of people, I like scallops - hence the huge established the Port Phillip Bay dredge licence amount of scallop dredging in Port Phillip Bay! The buy-back group in August 1996 and set down a dredging has had an adverse effect on recreational number of terms of reference. and to some extent commercial fishing on the southern peninsula. Recreational fishermen like to The terms of reference include an examination of the fish along the southern peninsula. Many of them like most effective manner of valuing licences, the to go out on the bay in their boats, and you often see mechanisms for making buy-back payments, the families fishing from the piers. This was a bigger administration of the buy-back fund and the issue than I thought it would be during the last implementation of the buy-back itself. election campaign. Many recreational fishermen have said that scallop dredging in the area results in I will dwell on some of the comments made by the a significant drop in the number of fish that are member for Geelong North, particularly on the caught. sections that prohibit appeals. A number of scallop fishermen in the bay are experiencing considerable Diving is a small but flourishing industry in my hardship. When the act is proclaimed and scallop electorate. There are a number of diving schools, fishermen no longer gather the scallop harvest in the which cater for the many people who come down to bay, they will experience further difficulties. I have the peninsula during the week and on weekends for received some letters that may be of interest to diving lessons, as well as the boat owners who take honourable members. The first is from a traditional divers out on the bay. The divers tell me about the bay fisherman, Shane Rigby, who says: damage the scallop dredges do to the seabed, because they take not only the scallops but With the closure of Port Phillip Bay I implore you to everything else as well - including small shellfish consider me in an early buy-back as I am enduring and the sea creatures that live on the seabed. The severe hardship financially at this present time. seabed is scarred for a long while afterwards.

Another fisherman who is experiencing considerable The shipwreck of the Hurricane, which is off the hardship is a constituent, Bill Swarzenburg, whose coast of Rosebud, is a popular diving spot. There is son skippered a boat called the Gunga Din which an exclusion zone around the wreck, which dredges sadly, on the night of Friday, 30 August, sank in the are supposedly not allowed into. However, every vicinity of the heads. He is relying on the buy-back time the dredges are in the area, the owners seem scheme to set himself up again - although whether not to adhere to the restrictions. As a result, the he continues in some other form of fishery or gets wreck of the Hurricane has almost been dredged into out of the industry altogether is up to him, of course. oblivion. Bits of the wreck have been spread everywhere, and even the marker that marks the If the buy-back scheme is delayed by a protracted wreck has been moved around the seabed after appeal mechanism, the sort of people I have having been snagged by the dredges. mentioned would find it extremely difficult to QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1692 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

Recreational fishermen and divers will be glad to see Motion agreed to by absolute majority. the end of scallop dredging. I know alternatives will be proposed. A gentleman came into my office Read second time. suggesting that scallops could be harvested using a giant vacuum cleaner. He wanted to know if he Committed. could have some help to investigate the process. We will still have our scallops, but this bill will stop the Committee damage done by the scallop dredges. I am mindful that fishermen who have been dredging for scallops Clause 1 in the bay for years will lose their licences, but the government has committed $10 million to buy them Progress reported. back. It is important that the fishermen are paid out quickly once the licences have been bought so that Sitting suspended 1.01 p.m. until 2.05 p.m. they do not lose out financially. Obviously, a licence to dredge scallops in Port Phillip Bay will now be worthless. I support the bill, which will have quite an effect on the people on the southern peninsula, QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE not only in an economic sense but in a social and recreational sense as well. Competition policy: judicial system Mr LEAN (Carrum) - I am also mindful of the time so I will not reiterate what my colleagues have Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - Is it already said. I agree with everything they said, and I not a fact that the Premier misled the house also agree with what the member for Geelong North yesterday by wrongly claiming that said about striking a price for the Port Phillip Bay Attorneys-General throughout the country had licences. It is important we negotiate a price for the agreed that competition principles would not apply licences and dredges of the 18-odd licence holders to the courts, and will he now explain properly to who operate in Port Phillip and Corio Bay as soon as the house whether competition policy will apply to possible. The Carrum electorate contains the the courts, tribunals and to the Ombudsman? Mordialloc Creek, from which a number of scallop dredges operate. I have had a lot to do with those Mr KENNETI (Premier) - I thank the Leader of fellows over the years, and they are keen to strike a the Opposition for his in-depth question. If the deal and get on with their lives. Leader of the OppOSition had read the document the government put out - I think it was dated June One thing that has not been mentioned is the huge 1996 - which was its return to the National benefit to the Victorian economy that flows from Competition Council he would have noticed that recreational fishing. Recreational fishermen have neither the courts nor the Ombudsman were part of been aware for a number of years of the damage the 400 acts to be reviewed. The Leader of the done to the benthos by the scallop dredges, which Opposition should have further understood that no threaten the future of recreational fishing in the bay. such review is planned of either of those offices. I commend the bill to honourable members and ask them to support it. Once the right price is struck, I The requirement under these principles is to review am sure the bill will be of great benefit to everyone all legislation. As I have said on numerous who lives around Port Phillip Bay. occasions, the principles contained in the agreement the heads of government signed on 11 April 1995 The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - call on governments to review legislation which Order! It is my view that the bill is required to be restricts competition. The statement issued by the passed by an absolute majority. As there is not a government in June indicates clearly that the sufficient number of members present, I ask the legislation relating to both judicial functions and the Oerk to ring the bells. Ombudsman was not identified by the responsible minister, nor has it been identified anywhere else Bells rung. around Australia to my knowledge because no restriction on competition has been identified in Required number of members having assembled those two areas. in chamber: As I have said, I am not sure of the total number of acts, but Victoria has identified approximately QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1693

400 acts which have a restrictive element. The Audit the budget strategy. The whole purpose of an Act restricts competition by requiring that the autumn statement was to ensure that new budgetary Auditor-General is the only person empowered to measures, new budgetary policies, new taxation externally audit or to authorise others to conduct initiatives and the like could take effect from the external audits of departments or public bodies. beginning of a budget year so that the community Therefore, as I have said all along, this is part of a and the public sector generally received the process that falls under the principles of competition advantage of those policies throughout the entire policy, which were agreed to by all governments budget year. and the commonwealth on 11 April 1995. In particular, under Westminster conventions new Budget: presentation projects in the capital program are treated as new policy. Accordingly, until the government Mr ROWE (Cranboume) - Will the Treasurer implemented the introduction of an interim advise the house of the government's new plans for appropriation bill when it was dependent upon presentation of the state budget that will further supply, in practice the commencement of new improve financial management in Victoria? projects for each year's capital program had to await the formal passage of the budget, which sometimes Honourable members interjecting. occurred late in October. As a result, three or four months of activity on new projects was lost. Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - I can understand that the honourable member for Yan That problem was cured by bringing in an autumn Yean laughs at the concept of sound budget statement in conjunction with an interim management; he would not have experienced it on appropriation bill rather than merely a supply bill. that side of the house! I am pleased to announce The new arrangements will continue proper today that commencing from the 1997-98 budget to accountability; there will be a full parliamentary be delivered next year the government will bring debate on the budget in each autumn session, and forward the formal Victorian budget into the the government will report in the finance statement autumn session of state Parliament. When it first on the closed year's accounts in the normal way came into office, the government adopted the during the spring session of parliament. It will also practice of introducing an autumn statement and enable budget documents to make comparisons delivering a formal budget - largely a formal between budgets rather than between budgets and appropriation measure - in the spring session each actual expenditure, as has been the case in the past. year. That provided the opportunity for two periods That has represented something of a distortion in the of review of the government's overall budget information available to members and to the general strategy each year. That was necessary because of public. the disastrous budgetary position the government inherited and particularly the timing of the election This is just part of a wider sweep of reforms being at which the government came to office. introduced to continue the improvement in the management of public finances. It will again cement The crisis in public sector finance inherited at that the benefit of the autumn statement and remove the time has now been largely overcome and is behind difficulty that departmental management has us. However, the state must still concentrate on experienced in recent years in effectively having to continuing to improve competitiveness, public prepare for two full budgets each year. It will leave finances and on laying the ground work for the management carefully focused at the most relevant reductions in state taxes and charges to improve time of the year on implementing the government's household budgets and the competitiveness of new budget strategy. I am sure the house will find it industry. beneficial, and again it is part of the continuing improvement in public administration. One of the side effects of the arrangement that we have pursued for the past four years is that Auditor-General: independence departments have been required to focus in the early part of each budget year on preparing numbers for Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I refer the the formal appropriation documents and the formal Treasurer to his claim that the review of the Audit budget to be delivered in September. That is the Act is set out in the document on national time, of course, when departmental managers and competition policy published in June this year. Will officials must focus most carefully on implementing the Treasurer confirm that this document authorises QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1694 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 the review of only parts 1, 2 and 6 of the Audit Act, young people in years 9 and 10 the opportunity to which deal only with the appointment of the undertake character leadership and training courses. Auditor-General and which exclude the Auditor-General's role of auditing government When expressions of interest were called for the departments, and that, accordingly, the terms of government was overwhelmed by the response from reference announced on 21 November by the secondary schools. In fact, more than 25 per cent of Premier are unauthorised and inconsistent with the schools responded to the new initiative. Because of government's own policy documents. that response the government has increased the number of students who will be able to participate in Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - As a member of the first year of operation from 750 to more than 830. the Victorian bar I am accustomed to receiving a Some 29 secondary colleges will participate in the pink ribbon around a request for legal advice with inaugural year of the Victorian Youth Development the usual fee. Due to the impecunious position of the program. The schools include two girls secondary ALP I will endeavour to provide it with a pro bono colleges, one being Melbourne Girls Secondary opinion. As is quite appropriate, the government College, which is on the former Richmond does not pre-empt the reviews required of Victorian Secondary College site which attracted so much legislation. As the Premier has said, more than industrial action at one stage; a special school; a 400 acts are identified -- three-cluster school in north-east Victoria; a Koori open school; and a number of rural and Honourable members interjecting. metropolitan schools.

Mr STOCKDALE - The government is This is a very important initiative. We were joined at conducting a review in accordance with its the launch this morning by the honourable member obligations under the -- for Melton, David Cunningham, who would be able to attest to the sense of excitement exhibited not only Mr Brumby interjected. by the students and the school teachers but also by the provider groups. We are pleased to be able to Mr STOCKDALE - As usual, the Labor Party put this program in place. It joins other programs, has no interest in the answer to the question. like Turning the Tide, the drug offensive which will commence early next year and to which the Mr Brumby interjected. government has allocated $38 million over the next three to four years. The government is spending a lot The SPEAKER - Order! The Leader of the of time and effort in putting together programs that Opposition will cease interjecting. will give our children a more rounded education.

Mr STOCKDALE - The government is An honourable member interjected. conducting a review in accordance with its obligations. In June it published a list of Victorian Mr KENNETT - Here we go again - the Labor legislation subject to review and it is conducting the Party knocking, whingeing, moaning and review in accordance with the requirements. groaning.The Labor Party had the option when in government to deliver good education and it failed. Victorian Youth Development program It had the opportunity to deliver good government and it failed. It even had the opportunity to Mr JENKINS (Ballarat West) - Will the Premier introduce leadership programs like we are doing advise the house of initiatives to enhance the today and it failed. leadership skills, community involvement and self-esteem of our young Victorians? Once again the Labor Party will find out very quickly how out of step it is with the community. I Mr KENNETT (Premier) - What an appropriate predict involvement in this program will almost question on a day like today. I am very pleased to double every year after its inaugural year. Already announce that today the Minister for Education, the dozens of schools want to be included in 1998. I honourable member for Ripon and I launched the thank the sponsors; I thank the schools and their Victorian Youth Development program, which was parents; I particularly thank the teachers taking part promised during the election campaign. The in the program for their enthusiasm; and I owe a program will involve a number of groups providing special vote of thanks to the honourable member for Ripon, who was charged with the responsibility of QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1695 introducing this program just after the election. He National Farmers Federation, who has just has done a first-class job. completed the report. It is a far-reaching, warts-and-all report. It describes the situation the Honourable members interjecting. industry finds itself in, which is certainly critical. Something like 40 per cent of wool producers in the Mr KENNETI - While those who observe this state are returning losses, which is clearly serious. place will be able to attest to the inane way the opposition behaves, the honourable member for The report does more than just detail the current Melton will be able to attest to the professionalism in situation of the wool industry in Victoria. It points to the way the program has been put together. directions we can take and areas we can move to in the future to return to profitability. The document is Auditor-General: independence headed 'Wool growing in Victoria: pathways to profitability' and we need to act on it with some Mr BRUMBY

Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Agriculture and The document highlights a number of important Resources) - I thank the honourable member for issues that we need to address. It also shows that Ballarat East for the question, which is very there is a pathway to profitability if we are prepared important. Members of this house would be aware to tackle the tough issues and deal with them. I am of the current problems facing the Victorian and looking forward to working with the industry to Australian wool industry. Because of those concerns, drive the sorts of reforms we need to return shortly after the last election I commissioned a profitability to wool growers in Victoria. review of the Victorian wool industry to examine measures the Victorian government can make as Auditor-General: independence recommendations to the national government and any other issues that need to be addressed. Mr BRACKS (Williamstown) - I refer the Treasurer to the fact that Miss Claire Thomas, a I take this opportunity to thank the chairman of the senior executive officer of the Department of committee, Mr John Watson, Vice-President of the Treasury and Finance, told the Auditor-General's QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

1696 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 staff that the review of the Audit Act was a low Mr STOCKDALE - The Labor Party is priority and would not take place for some years absolutely desperate to try to draw an issue out of and ask: what circumstances have changed to justify something that is not an issue. What is constantly the sudden and urgent attention to the review of the demonstrated here -- Audit Act? Mr Brumby interjected. Mr STOCKDALE (Treasurer) - The very list to which the opposition has made reference during Mr STOCKDALE - I am sure the Leader of the question time today discloses that this is an act that Opposition would like the media to be charitable is within the responsibilities of the Premier. The and to assume that his usual propensity for shooting Premier has initiated the review. The competition himself in the foot is in evidence today. I think it is principles agreement makes it clear -- being made very clear that the opposition has not bothered to read the relevant documentation, has no Mr Brumby interjected. idea about the obligations governments have assumed under the various agreements that are The SPEAKER - Order! The Leader of the relevant and is simply totally unaware of the proper Opposition! processes of government.

Mr Brumby interjected. This review is being conducted in accordance with the national agreement. It is being conducted on a The SPEAKER - Order! If the Leader of the timetable that reflects the importance of the matter Opposition continues to interject across the table, and I would have thought the opposition's reaction I will dock the next question against his side to this matter illustrates very clearly that it is a whether he gets it or not. matter of top priority.

Honourable members interjecting. Honourable members interjecting.

The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable The SPEAKER - Order! I have asked the member for Melbourne! honourable member for Melbourne three times to cease interjecting. I do not want to have to ask him Mr STOCKDALE - The competition principles again. agreement requires each government to determine the timetable for review of legislation under the Mr STOCKDALE - I would have thought the agreement. It makes it very clear, quite explicitly very attention directed to this issue in this house and clear, that it is a matter for each government to in public illustrates beyond any doubt that it is a determine the timetable for review of acts. Nobody major priority for the government and that the ever intended that the published timetable would be decision of the Premier is absolutely -- binding and that the government would not need from time to time, depending on the circumstances, Mr Brumby interjected. to reconsider the most appropriate order in which to review legislation. The SPEAKER - Order! I earlier advised the Leader of the Opposition that if he continued to The government has made a decision to initiate interject and ask supplementary questions across the review of various pieces of legislation, including the table the next two questions would go to the Audit Act, and it is a matter for each minister to government side. I intend that to be the case. determine within the portfolio responsibilities which acts are to be reviewed at any particular time. From Honourable members interjecting. time to time the minister responsible will have to address himself to the resources available and how Mr STOCKDALE - I must say for myself, they should be deployed. It is a matter within the although it is not within my area of responsibility, responsibilities of that minister. that I entirely agree with the Premier's decision.

Mr Baker - But he's still sulking! Docklands: transport museum

The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable Mr WELLS (Wantima) - Will the Minister for member for Sunshine! Transport advise the house of the government's QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1697 proposal for the establishment of a world-class Honourable members interjecting. transport museum at Docklands? The SPEAKER - Order! I should advise the Mr BROWN (Minister for Transport) - It is house that if I say I am going to do something all indeed a great pleasure to tell the house about what honourable members had better believe I will do it. will be a very important undertaking by this The Chair should be heeded if it asks for order. I government, the establishment of a world-class warned the Leader of the Opposition three times transport museum at goods shed no. 2 at Docklands. about what I would do. He should have taken heed The Public Transport Corporation and a raft of other of it, as should every other honourable member. bodies have some interesting heritage rolling stock. Together they have hundreds of thousands of items CF A: union negotiations of transport memorabilia, including rolling stock, photographs and much more. Mr DIXON (Dromana) - Will the Minister for Police and Emergency Services inform the house of I am prepared to table the comprehensive the status of negotiations between the CF A and the documents that have been prepared. They provide United Firefighters Union? an insight into some of the items that are available. They also provide an insight into the preparedness Mr W. D. McGRATH (Minister for Police and of this government to assist in the facilitation of this Emergency Services) - I thank the honourable world-class project. The establishment of the member for his question about a matter that is museum would be good for Victoria. particularly important to outer metropolitan areas. Yesterday, after some months of negotiation, an The government proposes to seek expressions of agreement was finally signed between the Country interest from the private sector for the establishment Fire Authority and the United Firefighters Union for of this museum. A short list of developers will be a 10 per cent wage increase. invited to incorporate a transport museum in the bid proposals for the development of the Batmans Hill This wage increase has been on offer by the CF A for precinct. The museum will house what I believe to more than 12 months but the UFU would not accept be the best examples of transport memorabilia and it. The matter finally went to the Industrial Relations rolling stock in this nation. Commission, which handed down the award yesterday. The employees received a 10 per cent The government proposes that this museum will be increase. The $8-a-week safety net adjustment is a living transport museum. It will be housed in what included in the 10 per cent increase. is an historically significant building at goods shed no. 2. The government proposes that the It is important to note that some productivity development and design costs of the 385-metre-Iong reforms are included in the agreement. They relate shed and its golden age of steam heritage will be particularly to the outer metropolitan area. In the met by the bidder who will go on to operate and growth corridors the CF A is looking to provide staff the museum. The material, comprehensive as it 24-hour manned stations. That places an enormous is, also includes the government's view on possible responsibility on volunteer firefighters. Through this features for the museum, including alternatives to productivity arrangement some of the CF A stations commercial operation of the venture and the will be manned by professional firefighters. That creation of a unique environment for residents, will necessitate adjustments. The stations will be tourists and commercial tenants in the world-class manned only by professionals at times when Docklands project. volunteers are not available because of work commitments. It is very, very pleasing indeed that Melbourne has a strong transport heritage and I the agreement has not only been ratified by the think the establishment of a world-class museum Industrial Relations Commission but has been would be the best way to show it off to the world. agreed to by the UFU. I am pleased to see that both The City Circle W-class trams are icons; they are parties have signed the agreement. living museums, in effect. We are looking forward to receiving many expressions of interest to facilitate this development.

The SPEAKER - Order! I call the honourable member for Dromana. FISHERIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

1698 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

FISHERIES (AMENDMENTI BILL Dean, Dr Peuiich, Mrs Dixon,Mr Phillips, Mr Committee Doyle, Mr Plowman, Mr A.F. Elder,Mr Reynolds, Mr Resumed from earlier this day; further discussion Finn,Mr Rowe,Mr of clause 1. Gude,Mr Savage, Mr Henderson, Mrs Shardey, Mrs Clause agreed to; clause 2 agreed to. Honeywood, Mr Smith, Mr ER Jasper,Mr Smith, Mr LW. Clause 3 Jenkins, Mr (Teller) Spry,Mr Kilgour, Mr Steggall, Mr Mr LONEY (Geelong North) - I move: Lean,Mr Stockdale, Mr Leigh,Mr Tehan,Mrs 1. Clause 3, line 33, after "cancelled licence" insert "and Lupton,Mr Thompson, Mr must ensure that the new licence has the same McArthur, Mr Traynor,Mr entitlements and conditions that the cancelled McCall,Ms Treasure, Mr licence had (except for entitlements and conditions McGill,Mrs Wade,Mrs with respect to the taking of scallops in the waters McGrath, Mr W.D. Wells,Mr of Port Phillip Bay).". McLellan,Mr This amendment will not substantially change what is in the bill. It will clarify beyond all doubt that all Amendment negatived. entitlements held by licensed fishermen other than the Port Phillip Bay scallop licences will be returned Mr LONEY (Geelong North) - I move: to them when the licences are returned as amended 2. Clause 3, page 3, lines 9 and 10, omit "The registered licences with the Port Phillip Bay scallop-fishing owner of a boat that has its licence" and insert 11 A entitlements deleted. Although the minister has said person who held a licence that is". that all entitlements should be restored, the legislation should reflect that. This amendment will The amendment does not change the intent of the satisfy that industry concern. bill. It clarifies the pOSition when a person may no longer have a boat. A scallop fisherman is in that Committee divided on amendment: position because his boat sank some months ago. Without doubt that person is entitled to receive Ayes, 29 payment for the licence. As it stands the expression Andrianopoulos, Mr Hulls,Mr 'owner of a boat' rather than 'licence-holder' could Baker,Mr Kosky,Ms theoretically mean that a person who holds a licence Batchelor, Mr Langdon,Mr but no longer owns a boat is not entitled to payment. Bracks,Mr Leighton, Mr That is certainly not the intention of the bill. The Brumby,Mr Iim,Mr industry has put it to the opposition and also to the Cameron, Mr (Teller) Loney,Mr government that this simple change would ensure Campbell, Ms Maddigan, Mrs there is no legal problem or impediment to that Carli,Mr Micallef, Mr person receiving payment through the buy-back Cole,Mr Mildenhall, Mr prOvisions. Cunningham, Mr (Teller) Pandazopoulos, Mr Dollis, Mr Seitz,Mr Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Agriculture and Garbutt, Ms Sheehan,Mr Resources) - After seeking their advice, both the Gillett,Ms Thwaites, Mr government solicitor and parliamentary counsel Haermeyer, Mr Wilson,Mrs advised the government that the amendment is not Hamilton, Mr necessary and that that point will be picked up by administrative means. That is the best advice we Noes, 49 have. Andrighetto, Mr (Teller) Maclellan, Mr Ashley,Mr McNamara, Mr Amendment negatived. Brown,Mr Napthine, Dr Burke, Ms Paterson, Mr Mr LONEY (Geelong North) - During the Clark,Mr Perrin,Mr second-reading debate I referred to proposed Cooper,Mr Pescott,Mr section 153A and to concerns expressed by the FISHERIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1699 industry. Although scallop fishermen have accepted fishery. Although now under challenge in the courts the closure of the industry many are suffering this year the Queensland government closed the extreme hardship and require payment fairly Princeton Passage to all commercial fishing and paid quickly. I refer in particular to the fishermen who no compensation. have licences for Port Phillip Bay only. The closure of the industry has had a devastating effect on their We have had other instances where licences are livelihoods. applied when using assets of the Crown, whether in marine waters or on Crown land. When the Alpine The industry would like some mechanism for the National Park was declared, discussions occurred minister's determining the amount of the pay-back with the mountain cattlemen about their grazing incorporated in the bill. The opposition cannot move licences, and the licences were ultimately an amendment to that effect because it first requires terminated. Similarly, a number of farmers running a message from the Governor. In the interests of stock on country they regarded as being almost fishermen will the government consider the issue perpetual Crown leasehold in the Hattah-Kulkyne rather than having a general figure determination? I National Park in the western part of the state had to note the comments of the Scrutiny of Acts and surrender their leases because of the extension of the Regulations Committee: national park and the fact that the area was to come back under government control. Grazing was no The committee is of the view that the use of a section 85 longer considered a suitable activity to be carried on provision in respect of new section 153A (cancellation in a national park. of scallop licences) is appropriate and desirable in all the circumstances. We all understand the angst that this issue causes. But at the end of the day people know that the The opposition also broadly holds that view. On licences are granted by the Crown, and we are behalf of the industry and in the interests of proceeding as determined by the legislation. pursuing disclosure the opposition is concerned that the mechanism will not allow obstacles to be placed Oause agreed to; clauses 4 and 5 agreed to. in the way of the intent of the bill. It believes the bill should provide some method by which people who Reported to house without amendment. are severely aggrieved and feel they have a case to put to the minister about the determination of their Third reading licence should be able to do so. On the other hand, those who are prepared to accept the minister's The DEPUTY SPEAKER - Order! I am of the general offer - we expect them to be the opinion that the third reading of this bill needs to be overwhelming majority - can do so without carried by an absolute majority. As there are not 45 holding up the process. Perhaps the government can members present, I ask the Clerk to ring the bells. revisit the issue and see whether an amendment can be introduced at a later date. Bells rung.

Mr McNAMARA (Minister for Agriculture and Required number of members having assembled Resources) - All licences affected by the bill must in chamber: be treated equally because the licence entitlements are the same. The government is doing no more than Motion agreed to by absolute majority. acquiring licences and it does not agree that some licensees should be able to double dip. Read third time.

With regard to the comments made by the Scrutiny Remaining stages of Acts and Regulations Committee, I point out that earlier this year New South Wales banned the use of Passed remaining stages. fishing traps to take yellow-tail kingfish, thus effectively closing the fishery and no compensation was paid. Some years ago the Tasmanian government banned commercial scallop dredging from some of the main channels, thus closing the fishery and, again, no compensation was paid. The area was recently reopened as a recreational scallop QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

1700 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS includes land that has been reserved for a long time. BILL All that land involved has the common feature of having been designated as land to be used for Second reading general market purposes.

Debate resumed from 14 November; motion of The bill waters that down a little in that only part of Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Conservation and Land the land to be gathered together Wlder this measure Management). and granted to the Melbourne City COWlcil will remain for market purposes. The remainder will be Ms GARBUIT (BWldoora) - This bill affects the granted to the City of Melbourne for other purposes future of the Queen Victoria Market, which is a related to market issues. That is a bit vague and historic and cultural icon not only for Melbumians perhaps offers a bit less protection for the market, but, I would think, for all Victorians. There would because Wlderlying this bill is the fear that it is a step not be many of us who have not shopped or at least along the path of selling off the market to private browsed at the market to see whether we could pick operators. Many private companies across Victoria up some bargains. The market is located. in the heart and Australia would love to get their hands on the of Melbourne in some very historic buildings that market and operate it as a private business. are listed on the Victorian Heritage Register. More recently it has become a tourist icon, which means The bill unreserves many parcels of land that have the market now attracts as many tourists as it does been used by the market over the years, and the local shoppers. intention of the government is to grant that land to the Melbourne City COWlcil in two parcels. One The bill takes the market further along the path of parcel is the land currently occupied by the car park corporatisation and, perhaps, privatisation. For that and used. for various activities. The car park is reason the opposition has grave concerns about it. usually full when I go to the market, and I think The Melbourne City COWlcil has been seeking to most Melbumians have experienced having to drive corporatise the market for at least two years. Last aroWld for hours looking for a place to park. year the cOWlcil commissioners established a wholly owned subsidiary called QVM Pty Ltd, to increase Or Naptbine interjected. the market's business focus, I am told. Whether that is good for the market in the long-term is a matter Ms GARBUTI - The minister is right; I could for debate. The market has broader significance than take public transport, but the government have been just the business it generates. It has historic, cultural, cutting that back lately and making it much more community and tourist significance. By focusing expensive. It is also not that reliable. I am advised simply on its business operations, the government is that the intention of the government is that that in danger of losing sight of its broader importance to parcel of land will be sold to the Melbourne City Melbourne. COWlcil at market value as set by the Valuer-General, and that it will be treated as a This bill revokes a number of permanent commercial site. The Melbourne City COWlcil reservations and provides for the granting of the already has plans for considerable capital land to the Melbourne City COWlcil. The preamble investment in a multistorey car park and various gives a potted history of the market, but looks only other buildings, and that may solve the parking at its legal backgroWld. In 1867, following an order problems. of the Governor in COWlcil, some land was set aside and given to the City of Melbourne for general The second, and perhaps more important, land market purposes. That area has grown like Topsy, parcel is the historic market site - the sheds, the and the market is now situated on various bits and stalls, the meat market, and so on - where we pieces of land. In 1877 an act of Parliament restricted traditionally shop and spend many hours and the use of the land to general market purposes, and dollars browsing through the great variety of goods in 1880, 1904 and 1917 more land was added to the offered for sale. That area will be given to the general market site. Melbourne City COWlcil in recognition of the capital investment the ratepayers of the City of Melbourne Those involved in drawing up the bill discovered a and the stallholders have put into that area over few other bits and pieces of land which were once more than 100 years dating back to 1867. Many of reserved as public roads or which were swapped as the buildings, which are a real landmark in part of other land deals. The market site also Melbourne and which provide part of the great QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1701 experience of shopping at the market, are classified moment, that is the Minister for Planning and Local .and are listed on the Victorian heritage register. That Government. However, that simply prevents the sale ,offers some protection for those buildings because it of those QVM shares without the council's telling will not be easy to change their use when the the minister. It does not say the council must tell the buildings themselves cannot be altered. Parliament or the public.

Both of those grants are subject to conditions. The opposition has not seen this agreement. It is not Clause 7 of the bill is headed 'Issue of Crown grant' pinned up on the notice board where we can look at and has three subdauses. Subclause (2) states: it. It is another of those secret agreements which goes no way towards protecting the public interest A Crown grant under this section is subject to any and the future of the Queen Victoria Market. That terms, conditions, covenants, exceptions, reservations sort of agreement between a minister and the and limitations that the Governor in Council may council - unseen by the public, unenforceable by detennine. the Parliament and never to go before to the Governor in Council or anyone else - is not Unfortunately, none of the three subclauses spells sufficient to guarantee that this government and the out what conditions the government will impose on Melbourne City Council will not move to the next the land, if any. The second-reading speech says stage of the privatisation process and sell off either conditions will apply to the two grants. The one of the two parts of the market set out in the condition for the car park is that it remain a car park bill- that is, the car park, the market, and the to be used for car parking and other uses associated wholly owned subsidiary of Melbourne City Council with the market, and the condition for the market that will run the market - or all of it. area is that it remain a market. However, nothing in the bill specifies that, and the people to whom I have No protection the public can follow and the spoken about the bill, particularly the stallholders opposition can check on is provided in the bill or in and many people with an interest in the market, are any other publicly available document that must be very nervous about that. dealt with by Parliament. For that reason I have prepared a reasoned amendment, which I will move Essentially, the minister has said, 'I am putting these and circulate. I move: conditions on the grants, but I will not let you see them. They are not in the bill, Parliament will not That all the words after 'That' be omitted with the view enforce them, Parliament will not have access to of inserting in place thereof the words 'this bill be them, and the public will not see them, but trust me'. withdrawn and redrafted to provide a guarantee that It is a 'trust me' bill. The market is far too important the land granted to the Melbourne City Council by this to the people of Melbourne for us simply to accept bill must remain in public ownership and can be that its future should rely on our trusting this disposed of only to the Crown after agreement of the government. We have learnt at some cost that we Parliament' . cannot trust this government; it has a history of broken promises. The promise is made in the The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Richardson) - minister's second-reading speech but there is Order! I inform the honourable member for nothing to back it up. That is not good enough for Bundoora and the house that all speakers will now something as important as the Queen Victoria be speaking to the bill as well as to the reasoned Market, which has dominated Melbourne for more amendment moved by the honourable member for than 100 years. The market draws enormous Bundoora. revenue from tourism, and it has been under attack and a great deal of uncertainty over the past few Ms GARBUIT - The reasoned amendment years. It is not sufficient for the minister to say, arises out of the opposition's concern not so much 'Trust me'. about the provisions in the bill but about what is not in the bill. We wish to ensure that when the Another piece of information about this agreement Melbourne City Council is granted this land, even came via the media. Recently a spokesperson for the with the conditions the minister has indicated and Minister for Finance, was quoted in the Age as the existence of this secret agreement with the saying the council has an agreement that it will not Minister for Local Government and Planning, the sell its shareholding in the private company, land will not then be sold to a private concern and QVM Pty Ltd, without approval from the minister that it will remain in public ownership. If the responsible for the Local Government Act. At the Melbourne City Council decides it does not wish to QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

1702 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 carry on the activities of the market, the opposition process of one ownership by the Crown ceasing and wants to ensure that the market cannot be sold to a a grant being made to the Melbourne City Council commercial interest but must be disposed of back to their rights will not be affected. There is a lot of the Crown, with the agreement of the Parliament. nervousness among the market leaseholders and stallholders about the future. In fact, the whole That would ensure some public accountability and exercise of corporatisation has been quite difficult. the public and the Parliament would then know People involved with the market have been telling what was happening. To use an American me some of their concerns, which are not so much expression - and I think it is a great name - the related to this bill as they are to corporatisation and sunshine principle would apply - that is, there economic rationalism at the expense of other would be a bit of light on the whole exercise to priorities. allows us to see what was happening. We do not want the Melbourne Gty Council to decide in a few Corporatisation was first proposed some years ago. years that it will divest itself entirely of the market The Herald Sun of 25 July 1994 reported some and sell off either or both parcels of land, with or comments of Mr Denis Donnell from the Victoria without the wholly owned subsidiary that is Market Advisory Committee, who spoke about the currently managing it. We need some protection fear that prices would increase and about who against that, and the reasoned amendment provides would be members of the board of directors. I that. thought his comments were very appropriate:

The legislation contains no grantees. Various The Vicrnarket is a top tourist attraction and it is doing mechanisms under plarming laws could achieve the well. There's an old saying: 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'. desired result; it is up to the minister to find them. The opposition will not object if a guarantee is spelt A year down the track an article appeared in the Age out and can be seen. If that were the case we would of 2 Apri11995 under the heading 'Vie Market know the land was safe in public ownership and traders won't buy rent rise. The first paragraph could not be sold without being brought before states: Parliament for debate. I ask the minister to consider the reasoned amendment, which simply offers a Prices will rise sharply as a result of Melbourne City greater guarantee for the people of Victoria Council's 'corporatisation' plan for the historic Queen regarding the long-term future of the market. Victoria Market, traders warned yesterday.

I refer to a comment from the National Trust's Stallholders in the meat and fish hall are facing a rent conservation officer, Mr lan Wight, who expressed increase of up to 40 per cent, which will force prices up concerns about the future of the market. He said he and could ultimately force the market to dose ... objected to the bill precisely because he could see further down the track the danger of the market If something is operated simply on the basis of being sold off. In a newspaper article he is reported economic rationalism or economic as saying: fundamentalism - I think that is a more appropriate name - and a lot of factors important 'It just removes one layer or one hurdle which one to the market are ignored the basis of the market is would have to go through before any major change then undermined. The article also contains a occurred on the site' ... comment from a butcher who says that if people drive around for an hour or so looking for a car park The bill simply makes it that much easier to sell off when they come to the market and then find that the the entire market site. The reasoned amendment I prices are no different from those at the corner shop have moved offers a guarantee against that. It would they will not come back. That is a problem with put the hurdle up again so the sale would have to be running a place like the market strictly on the lines dealt with by Parliament. There could even be some of economic rationalism. consultation with and contribution by the public! I commend the reasoned amendment to the house. The Age of August 1996 printed a letter from a local resident who appreciated shopping at the market. Clause 8 of the bill headed 'Certain leases not The letter outlines some of the problems that were affected' goes some way to allaying the concerns of predicted two years ago when the council first set off leaseholders and stallholders. Nothing in the bill down the path of corporatisation, making affects their leases or their licences and in the everything relate to the bottom line and not QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1703 recognising anything else. The resident describes Mr BATCHELOR - Many stallholders at the how a fast-food outlet was able to locate next to the Queen Victoria Market come from my electorate, market and gain permission very quickly to extend and I can assure the minister that they get direct the pavement. Traders at the market have not been preference. As I said, it is my task to carry out the able to achieve that despite trying for years. She shopping duties at the Queen Victoria Market, so describes how changes have been made to parking I must declare that I have a direct interest in areas so people can grab their hambtll"gers or ensuring that the market is maintained as a viable whatever, and how that disadvantages traders and exciting place to shop. trying to get deliveries for their products. She also says the board has no representation from council, And that is exactly what it is. For many people who traders and citizens. The board, which was work in the central business district and the hand-picked by the commissioners, is running the surrounding area and for those who live in or travel market without appropriate representation from into the central part of Melbourne to do their other groups. Corporatisation of the market has been shopping, the Queen Victoria Market is the premier a rocky path, and it has not been supported strongly and leading market site in not only Melbourne but by a whole range of people simply because it ignores the whole of Victoria. When you compare it with many factors about the market. It is just a blind focus other markets in other capital cities you realise that on the bottom line. it is probably the best retail market in Australia.

Another aspect of the bill I wish to comment on Among our responsibilities as parliamentarians and relates to a previous use of the market. Before 1867 it custodians of the traditions of our capital city we was the site of the Melbourne cemetery where 10000 must ensure that we do not do something that will people were buried, including a large number of damage or put at risk our icons. The Queen Victoria Aborigines. I wish to comment on the agreement Market is an icon and it cannot lightly be tampered that has been signed by the Minister for Planning with. It deserves to be given the utmost attention by and Local Government and members of the Parliament, and it certainly deserves to be protected. Wurundjeri tribe. It follows the format of the federal I t has been an essential part of the fabric of the life of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Melbourne for well over 100 years. It is essential to a Protection Act 1984 and sets out conditions under wide range of people going about their daily which any works to be undertaken on the site will be activities - those who shop there and those who done in a manner sensitive to the requirements and provide the retail services - and increasingly it has the cultural heritage of the Aboriginal people. That become a prime tourist attraction in the centre of is probably one of the best features of the measure. Melbourne. We have a responsibility to ensure that what we do here today does not impact adversely on Because the bill does not contain any guarantees that all those features of the market. the land will not be sold off and that the future of the Queen Victoria Market will not be put at The structure and intent of the Queen Victoria considerable risk I recommend that the government Market Lands Bill could place the Queen Victoria consider supporting the reasoned amendment, Market at risk. The bill seeks to change a which provides that guarantee and which would fundamental set of relationships that have existed result in the opposition supporting the bill. Without for a long time and have worked well. Various the reasoned amendment being agreed to the parcels of Crown land have been provided by this opposition cannot support the bill. Parliament to the Melbourne City Council to be used for market purposes. Parliament has always added a Mr BATCHELOR (Thomastown) - In beginning condition to the grants of land it has made over the my contribution to the debate on the Queen Victoria years and insisted that the land be used only for Market Lands Bill I indicate my support for the market purposes. reasoned amendment moved by the honourable member for Bundoora. It is that caveat, or special condition if you like, that Parliament has insisted on in the past when making I must declare my direct interest in the market, in land available - that is, that it be used and that I am one of the many people who shop at the managed by the Melbourne City Council for market Queen Victoria Market every Saturday. It is my duty purposes - that we are placing in jeopardy. In as part of my domestic arrangements. relation to a significant area of the land Parliament is being asked to significantly weaken the historic Dr Napthine interjected. QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

1704 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 relationship between the provision of the land and destruction of the market, and I point out that unless the requirement that it be used for market purposes. the market is a vibrant and dynamic place where the ordinary citizens of Melbourne do their shopping it There are two components to the new transfer of will cease to offer attractions for tourists. land to the Melbourne City Council. By virtue of the heritage values of the buildings on the land the First we must identify the original objectives of the government seeks to protect one area for market Queen Victoria Market and then we must ensure activities. The other area, which comprises the car that they continue. Parliament has a responsibility to parks, is being sold to the Melbourne City Council at do that, which is why the honourable member for market value. The conditions that will attach to the Bundoora has moved the reasoned amendment, permitted use of that land will be significantly and which asks that the bill be withdrawn and redrafted strategically loosened. That is where the problems to include a guarantee that the land granted to the arise and the fears come from. Melbourne City Council will remain in public ownership and can be disposed of only if Parliament In the past we have seen governments eye off the agrees. The Parliament would then have long-term broad acres of land in the north-western corner of overriding responsibilities to ensure that the the central business district where the market and objectives are met. A couple of code words and car parks are. Previous governments have eyed off phrases have deliberately been placed in the the land at the behest of greedy developers who second-reading speech by the bureaucrats. One code have wanted to use the land for inappropriate phrase in the third paragraph fills my heart with developments that would have led either directly to fear. The speech reads: the loss of the markets, because they would have been eliminated, or to proposals that, because of the The desire is to bring a much needed stronger business very nature of change over the years, surely would emphasis to the market's operations. have meant that a different sort of retail activity would take place there and so would have led to the The meaning of that phrase must be seen in the death of the market as we know it. context of this land being sold to the Melbourne City Council. The council already has access to the land Despite those lessons of history, we have nothing and has buildings on it. The government is insisting before Parliament today that shows that the on a transfer of money from the Melbourne City government has taken notice of those lessons. There Council to the state government. In that context the is an old saying that warns that if you don't learn the Melbourne City Council will be required by the lessons of history you are doomed to repeat them. ideology of the day - economic rationalism - to The fear is that that is exactly what will happen with obtain an economic return on the purchase of land it the market. If the conditions attached to the use of is already using. the land are relaxed, developers and other greedy people could put forward totally inappropriate In the future an economic focus will be directed proposals that will ultimately lead to the destruction towards the car park land to ensure that the of the Queen Victoria Market. economic returns are optimised. This will be the door that will be left open for the developers. It will The market has a history of serving the working allow them to come in and start putting forward people of Melbourne, and it has done that well by inappropriate ideas. providing quality goods at a range of prices. The dynamic and interactive atmosphere and the high I am told that at the moment the Melbourne City level of energy that has been created has made the Council does not have any such ideas or proposals. I market a popular tourist destination. Any regular take that information at face value. However, we shopper at the Queen Victoria Market sees tourists will have future Melbourne city councils - they from countries around the world. In recent times come and go by way of democratic elections. They guided walking tours have been organised. Small also come and go as a result of the vagaries of edicts groups are taken through the market, the history of from governments such as this one. We cannot be the market is explained and the produce can be certain of what the future holds and the pressures sampled. The tours are becoming extremely popular that will be brought to bear on the custodians of the and of course some people are seeking to take land, no matter whether the custodians are advantage of that popularity and wrongly to put the democratically elected or are administrators that emphasis on tourism as the primary function of the have been imposed on communities. market. If that continues it will lead to the QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1705

I am concerned about this being a cash transaction. However, it is not for those reasons that the The taxpayers of Melbourne will be forced to pay for opposition has moved the reasoned amendment. We land they are already using. They have contributed want to look after the interests of the working to the use of this land over the years. Pressure will people who use the markets. We want to look after be put on development. Someone already has the interests of the people who work at the stalls, development in mind because surveys have been who provide the facilities and who look after the carried out. Public opinion polls have been tourists who want to enjoy the atmosphere and the undertaken to try to find out what people will excitement that is the Queen Victoria Market. tolerate. Mr HAMILTON (Morwell) - I shall make a few An Honourable Member - Who carried them brief remarks on an important area of this bill. I refer out? to an agreement between the Melbourne City Council and the Wurundjeri Tribe Land Mr BATCHELOR - That is an interesting Compensation and Cultural Heritage Council and question. I was rung as a number in the telephone the Honourable Robert Roy Cameron Maclel1an. The book. The research company asked all sorts of agreement is entitled I Aboriginal Cultural Heritage questions about the Queen Victoria Market, Agreement and Section 173 Agreement, Queen including whether we wanted a supermarket to be Victoria Market Site'. built on the site. So someone has already carried out market research to try to find out how they could As history shows, under the Aboriginal and Torres use this land once this bill goes through. This is why Strait Islanders Cultural Protection Act the Queen the opposition feels compelled to seek to have Victoria Market site has been declared an Aboriginal someone appointed to look after the interests of the heritage site. In 1878 it was declared an Aboriginal people who use the Queen Victoria Market, burial site. Those involved in the declaration including the people who work at the market and included the government, the Society of Friends, help to make it such a dynamic and vibrant place. Jews, Wesleyans, Independents, Roman Catholics, Episcopalians and Presbyterians. Because this is a No doubt government members, who have probably designated, recognised and recorded Aboriginal never been near the place, will speak today and trot burial ground it was absolutely imperative for this out the government line. People who know what is particular transaction proposed under the bill to going on at the Queen Victoria Market are have the agreement set out, otherwise it would have concerned. The opposition calls upon the been in conflict with federal legislation. government to accept the reasoned amendment and take another look at this matter. Another point is of particular interest to me. The Chairperson of the Wurundjeri Tribe Land It is ironic that in these sittings of Parliament we Compensation and Cultural Heritage Council is a have constantly heard about competition policy Mr Bill Nicholson, who happens to reside in being the ideological sieve through which all Boolarra in my electorate. Bill is a key member of the legislation and political debate must pass. It is Wurundjeri tribe. The document is also signed by strange that the government does not do that here. Margaret Gardiner, an elder of the Wurundjeri In public transport the government has insisted people, Patricia McConnel1, who is also an elder, and there must be a physical separation between the the Minister for Planning and Local Government on owner of the infrastructure and the provider of the behalf of the government. service. On this occasion the government seeks to hand over the ownership of the infrastructure and This is an important document. It sets out an the land to the provider of the service. The provider agreement between the state government, the is a private organisation - namely, the Melbourne Melbourne City Council and the indigenous owners Oty Council. We must ask ourselves why, when in of the land, the Wurundjeri tribe. It is an agreement every other major economic reform put forward by in succession. Therefore, apart from the comments this government it has used the principles of about what mayor may not happen to the future competition and the division between infrastructure ownership of the land, this agreement is binding on ownership and service provision, on this occasion it all future parties until there is an agreement by all of seeks to go against that principle. Using the the parties that the agreement is no longer intact. government's line of logic this bill is probably illegal. It has been said that when the English came to this country and occupied its land they brought with QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

1706 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 them three things of importance. The first was Earl endeavours to ensure those persons comply with the Grey tea, the second was the wonderful game of terms of this agreement and the provisions of the cricket, and the third and most important was the Heritage Protection Act. British common law. Native title is not a concept of the Aboriginal people of this country. They have no Covenants that have been entered into by the concept in their religions and in their governance Wurundjeri Council give credibility and credence to aspects of native title; that is a British common-law that agreement. concept. Therefore, all the arguments we have heard about native title during the past few years right up I compliment the minister on having this agreement to and beyond the passage of the legislation - the drawn up. No-one was railroaded into signing it; it federal government's Native Title Act - were the was done after negotiation and consultation and, I result of British common law. The British, to their understand, with the complete agreement of the everlasting damnation, have tried to ignore native Wurundjeri people. It is irrelevant whether I think it title in this country. Unlike the situation in other is a good agreement: it has been signed and agreed countries settled under British common law, there to by the indigenous owners of the land, and I was never a treaty or act to obtain the title to the support it. land from the original owners in Australia. Again, that is something that I believe will be adopted in This is an important part of the discussions on the future. Queen Victoria Market site. It commits not only current parties to the agreement, but succeeding Nevertheless, it is important to get on record what parties. That should be recorded because it provides the agreement means. The Wurundjeri Council's extra emphasis. covenants on page 6 of the agreement are very important not only in respect of Aboriginal burial I wish to comment again on the opposition's concern places but in respect of the burial places of anyone. that this sort of legislation seems to be more about They state: ideology than practicality. The total dominance of the bean counters has taken over much of the in the event that works need to be conducted on or sensible practice, cultural and history of this state around the Aboriginal Place, consult within the and perhaps Australia. People of my age remember Wurundjeri Council in respect of those works and, in the many happenings and much of the feel of the so far as it is possible, ensure minimum disturbance of Queen Victoria Market and what it stood for. It is a the Aboriginal Place occurs; very important place. Despite some attacks on it over time from people who have tried to get rid of it, undertaking any work on or around the Aboriginal it is part of the history of Melbourne and part of the Place in accordance with the Heritage Protection Act; lives of people who like to shop in a market environment. It is a great place. I have never complying with any declarations of preservation made experienced another market quite like the Queen Vie in accordance with sections 21C, 21D and 21E of the market. I have been to Flemington market in Heritage Protection Act; Sydney, which does not have the cultural environment of the Queen Victoria Market. observing the needs and wishes of the Wurundjeri Council in respect of preservation, maintenance, The end result of this legislation can only be the exhibition, sale or use of the Aboriginal Place; destruction of the things that make the Queen Victoria Market what it is, because there is no need reporting to the minister a discovery of Aboriginal to sell the land to the Melbourne Oty Council. It is remains in accordance with section 21P of the Heritage part of the government's responsibilities. The land is Protection Act; owned by the government and the government should retain ownership. It seems that this do all things necessary to ensure that this agreement is government wants to sell off anything it thinks it can registered on title pursuant to section 21K of the get a dollar for, and that is pretty short-sighted. One Heritage Protection Act and section 181 of the Planning has only to look at what is going on in the West and Environment Act; and Australian courts now to understand that the private sector does not always do things very well and that, bring this agreement to the attention of council's in the fullness of time, the AIan Bonds of this world employees, agents and contractors and all persons are caught up with. However, because of the associated with the market site and use its best damage the economic rationalists and QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1707 entrepreneurial cowboys do in the meantime to the The bill will provide a third level of protection. ordinary people who suffer great loss and misery, When the land is granted to the Oty of Melbourne we should be forever vigilant. If Parliament has any covenants restricting its use to 'market purposes' responsibility, it is to be vigilant on behalf of the will be entered on the title. It is not an easy matter to people who elected it and whom it represents. change a covenant on a title. The bill does not simply rely on the parties honouring an agreement: once the Mr McARTHUR (Monbulk) - I welcome the Crown grant is made and the title is transferred to honourable member for Morwell's approval of the the Oty of Melbourne the covenants will prevent agreement between the Aboriginal community and anyone from using the land for purposes other than the minister on this issue. The honourable member market purposes. for Morwell has put it very well: this is a sensible agreement. It suits the interests of all the parties The minister has made clear the government's intent involved and will benefit all those parties and the that that restriction be entered on the title. I do not broader community in the future. know whether the opposition is saying the minister or the government will not abide by their word but I I will restrict my comments on the bill to a couple of assure it that that will happen. I assure them there minor matters. The minister outlined well in her will be a strong level of protection. second-reading speech why the bill has been introduced and the benefits it will confer on the To sell the land for development purposes the Oty market and the community. However, I would like of Melbourne would have to overcome three major to deal briefly with the opposition's reasoned hurdles, and the likelihood of that is very slim. The amendment - and I use the term 'reasoned' loosely. protections occasioned by the bill are as great and I do not think there has been a great deal of reason probably greater than any legislative protection the or rationale behind the amendment, and the house could provide. For those reasons I believe the government will not support it. The reasoned reasoned amendment is nonsense and should be amendment proposed by the honourable member opposed by all members of the house. The for Bundoora suggests there is insufficient protection government will not support it. under the current bill for the Queen Victoria Market site. That is not the case. Three very strong levels of Mr COLE (Melbourne) - I support the reasoned protection have been provided under this proposal. amendment. I do so because the Queen Victoria Market is in my electorate, just down a bit from my Firstly, the Victorian Heritage Register provides office. I know all about car parking problems. People strong protection for the market site and I find it often park in my driveway when they go to the hard to visualise any other use to which the building market - even some Liberal backbenchers used to could be put. Secondly, the Aboriginal agreement to do that. I had intended putting a lollipop person in which the honourable member for Morwell referred the driveway and charging people for parking but also provides strong protection over the site and the that is probably taking privatisation too far. uses to which the site can be put. If in future someone were to come up with a proposal to vary In some respects I adopt a different position from the use of the site under the agreement with the that of the honourable member for Thomastown and Aboriginal community that person would be the opposition spokesperson, the honourable required to gain its permission before any alteration member for Bundoora. With all sincerity I am to the use could be made. That could be extremely concerned that although the preservation of the difficult to do. Queen Victoria Market is enshrined in legislation, for the first time since the government has been in In respect of the suggestion of the honourable office I have more faith in it than I do in another member for Thomastown, I do not think it would be body - namely, the City of Melbourne. I believe the easy for anybody to turn it into a shopping mall or a minister is genuine in what she said about divesting multi-level development. The honourable member Crown land with encumbrances. I have seen it created fear in the community by talking about happen. telephone polls asking people whether they wanted a supermarket on the site. That is clearly kite-flying Crown land in my electorate is a big issue and the scaremongering. He set up a straw man and now he process of divesting it has corporate benefit. That will set fire to it. It is nonsense, but it is not applies as equally to the Queen Victoria Market as it unexpected from the honourable member for does for Princes Park, for the Carlton Football Club, Thomastown. the North Melbourne Football Club land and the QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

1708 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

Crown land around Royal Park and other areas. If appropriate given that I am the local member - the we put land into the ownership of the council it will Melbourne City Council said it would not have the probably be easier for the council to raise funds power to sell it. That was the council's original against it. position and that is what it told the public. When I pointed out to the public that that was not the case, However, I also know from my experience as a that it could be sold albeit with encumbrances councillor, and with 12 or 13 years involvement in attached, the council then said it could be sold but the administration of the Queen Victoria Market one the council would not sell it. 'We love the market, it way or another, that its performance has been good would be like selling the town hall'. at times and poor at others. Each time it operated well there had been a strong community campaign I do not accept that the council did not know that to make sure that happened. position when it made its original statement. It knew full well it would be gaining title. The whole point of However, the real problem I see - and I take up the gaining title is to put the council in a better position point of the honourable member for Monbulk - is than it otherwise would be, and that includes that it is true the encumbrances are set in stone. I do acquiring freehold property. We know that freehold not believe they can be changed. I read the bill­ titles often have many encumbrances attached to which is usually a prerequisite when one intends to them. speak on it - and I also read the second-reading speech. After researching it I came to the conclusion, As I said before, I do not believe it is the both as a lawyer and from other advice I have government's intention to do any more than give received, that the encumbrances will remain but away something without any reference back to the there is nothing that really prevents the land from minister. However, this involves such a volatile becoming privately owned. Even if Koori area - namely, the retail sector - and the market is community support is required for any change there so important to our community, that I believe the would not necessarily be any change - just the reasoned amendment should be supported. I put it change in ownership. If we said tomorrow that it to the Minister for Youth and Community Services could be sold, the private sector would be there to and the Minister for Conservation and Land buy it. The private sector may do so simply to run it Management that they should reconsider what they down because the market is the no. 1 competitor in are doing in the interests of the people of Melbourne. the retail sector. That would assist the oligopoly and the shopping cartels in the food industry. That is I do not trust and have no faith in the current what we are fiddling around with here. However, I council. However, the current council is not likely to acknowledge the ideological commitment of the sell the market - but the next one could. government to corporatisation and to maximising return on public assets manifesting itself once again I am concerned about the likelihood of a rapacious as it does at the City of Melbourne. business group dOminating the Melbourne City Council. They will be able to dominate free of the I do not trust the council of the City of Melbourne checks and balances that apply in Parliament. The today not to do something reprehensible to the current council voting system favours the postal Queen Victoria Market. It may well be that the best ballot. We only have to look at the problems with the way to achieve that is to run it down. It could fail to last ballot, when a thousand ballot papers were sent put in the effort and the exercise required. I do not on the Friday and arrived on the Monday but were trust the nature of some of the councillors on the excluded, to understand the problems that can arise. City of Melbourne to carry out the tasks required of There should have been another election, because, them with due diligence and honesty to preserve an most importantly, the current councillors have no important public asset. electoral legitimacy - and the council's own report referred to that. If we require a car park we do not need to corporatise the market to achieve that. It can happen The current Lord Mayor has on three occasions and it will happen. I have no doubt that car parking sought to meet with me, and on three occasions I issues need to be resolved not only because cars clog have given him a list of the times when I would be up my street and keep me from getting into my available. I have been as liberal as I can, given the office but also because of the business a car park busy life I lead. It is interesting that on each occasion attracts. When I raised this issue - I was probably the Lord Mayor has never got back to me. That has the first person to raise it publicly, which is not stopped him publicly slagging me for saying I QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1709 would not meet him. Of course, that is not true. The down, the vans have been removed from the street council did not bother to consult me about the and the food halls have been developed, all of which Queen Victoria Market site before it went to the has sharpened the market's focus. I believe the government. I accept that I am a mere opposition Queen Victoria Market now beats the penguins as backbencher -- our main tourist attraction - but I won't go into that. Many Victorians have been to the market. The Mr E. R. Smith - Modesty doesn't become you! traders will tell you that tourists do not buy very much, but then traders always tell you that. The Dr Napthine - We think you are a Labor emphasis has to be on improving the market, not heavyweight! just for the tourists but to cater to the needs of the businesses at the market. Mr COLE - So long as you don't think I am a Labor paperweight! Humility aside, the Melbourne The Labor Party attempted to corporatise the market City Council, whether it has been Labor, or Liberal, in a way. I remember only too well the campaign has never bothered to consult me - and the same that resulted from our first attempts to link the stall has been true of the Lord Mayor and the chief holders'leases to the consumer price index. A few commissioner. Being a capital city council it thinks it people had their windows smashed, so we decided should deal only with the minister or the Premier. to put it out to tender. That resulted in a Nevertheless, if there is to be consultation, it should recommended 350 per cent increase in the leases, so be real. Certainly the Lord Mayor should not go it was decided that linking them to the CPI was not around slagging the local member when he had such a bad idea in the first place! If the government agreed to formal meetings with set agendas. Each really wants to do something positive, it ought to be time the council or the Lord Mayor has sought to looking at a strategy to save and improve the market consult me, it has involved a major issue. They have through a community campaign, rather than putting probably sought me out to silence me - by which its faith in corporatisation. time it has been too late. I must be careful what I say when I challenge the If Queen Victoria Market is not improved, trade may council's legitimacy. Other people have been issued well wind down to a point of no return. The solution with writs for saying similar things, which is to the problems at the Queen Victoria Market is not extraordinary when we are engaged in debates on corporatisation. We need a community campaign to the electoral process and the future of the Queen increase business down there. Part of the solution Victoria Market. Other people who have dared to involves increasing car parking facilities, but we question the legitimacy of the council have had the need to convince people of the importance of council's entire resources turned against them. A shopping at the market. I am guilty of not using it certain Mr Thompson dared to challenge the council enough myself, but have bought the odd doughnut over his defeat by four votes. As a result, he has had and vanilla slice - and some fruit and vegetables. to give a commitment not to speak out against the council ever again! If that is the sort of thing the Mr Hamilton - What about a cappuccino? Melbourne City Council gets up to to try to overcome the problems it has with its bodgie Mr COLE - I was not going to mention that or electoral process and its legitimacy, I worry about the bratwurst! Unfortunately, the government and what is going on down there. the council believe corporatisation is the answer to what is a complex problem. But we need a The council should not use its public relations arm community campaign to save the market, not a and its lawyers in cases such as those. I believe the corporatisation program. I believe that if the bill is council's solicitors, Ma1Iesons Stephen Jaques, have passed the market will be sold to the private sector sent a letter to Mr Thompson saying he has breached in five years time, as surely as night follows day. The the agreement he gave when in the court of disputed council is dominated by business people, and the returns when he challenged his defeat. When he demand to sell it off will be too strong for councillors spoke out on the QVM and electoral process, he to resist. received a letter from Ma1Iesons stating he was in breach of the agreement, that he has to be quiet and The amount of work that has been done at the cannot speak out. The council has tried to push him Queen Victoria Market over the past five years has into bankruptcy and prevent the case from going been extraordinary. The Victoria Street side has been ahead. totally redeveloped. The sheds have been taken QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

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Despite that, we are entrusting the council with the faith in corporatisation or in the Melbourne City future of the Queen Victoria Market. I do not have Council to save the Queen Victoria Market. The any faith in the councillors' ability to do the right market has done very well for many years; it has thlng, not only because of what they have said and had its highs and its lows. It recovered from the loss done to me but because they have used all the of the wholesale fruit and vegetable market, and it resources at their disposal to fight somebody like expanded into Sunday trading and did extremely Mr Thompson in the court of disputed returns well, even though the traders were originally against because he dared to challenge the electoral process it. The market has subsequently lost its exclusivity after losing by four votes. Let's face it, who wouldn't for Sunday trading, but it has survived. We now mount a challenge after losing by four votes? have Sunday trading en masse, which has dearly cut into the market's business. The retail sector is That is how bad thlngs are the Melbourne City undergoing enormous change and that is also Council. I am not fussed about the causing problems. The Queen Victoria Market must misrepresentations and threats. I just hope the be supported for those reasons and because it council does not bother to contact me any more. provides the lowest priced goods for people on low Quite frankly, I could not be bothered with it, and incomes, and that is very important. the sooner it is gone the better off everybody will be. I do not trust the Melbourne City Council. What it is Dr Napthine intetjected. doing is not good, and I would not give it power over this land. As I said before - it was probably Mr COLE - I would not go quite that far, the first time I had said it - I have more faith in this although we could have another election, because government than I have in the council. this was bodgie. Dr Napthine intetjected. One minute the council says it is not getting the Queen Victoria Market land, the next minute it says Mr COLE - I even have more faith in the it is. Then it says it cannot sell that land, and the next Minister for Youth and Community Services than I minute it says it can after all. Who are the councillors do in this council! Although the council has done trying to kid? Why are they spending ratepayers' some oppressive thlngs, the actions of the council in money fighting a campaign against a person who employing its solicitors, Mallesons Stephen Jaques, stood. for election? That is an absolute disgrace. Why and putting tens of thousands of dollars into are they spending large sums of money working fighting Mr Thompson is one of the most disgusting against me? I have been supported in my campaign exercises I have ever witnessed. He is prevented by many people, one of whom is my ward from speaking out even on the Queen Victoria councillor, Cr Loma Hannan. She has been very Market, and that is disgusting. I hope this supportive, even though the Labor Party ran against government sees the need to prevent the land being her at the election. sold by the Melbourne City Council and supports the reasoned amendment moved by the honourable An honourable member intetjected. member for Bundoora.

Mr COLE - We ran against her at the election Or NAYTHINE (Minister for Youth and and she won, so I do not know about that. Many Community Services) - I thank the honourable councillors are very concerned about the processes members for Bundoora, Thomastown, Morwell, of the council, and I have raised this matter Melbourne and Monbulk. for their contributions. The previously. The decisions about the airport and most pleasing feature of this debate is the general about QVM Pty Ltd were made behind closed doors. agreement across all sides about the significance and That is not the way it should be. importance of the Queen Victoria Market as a unique Melbourne icon. I am repeating myself by This bill proposes to hand over to the pack of saying a unique icon, but the Queen Victoria Market bodgies at the Melbourne City Council the power to is an icon in Melbourne's genre and it is an icon in sell off the Queen Victoria Market. Encumbered as terms of tourism. It is a great tourist attraction. the market may be with Aboriginal sites and everything else, nobody can deny that it could be The Queen Victoria Market is also a significant retail sold privately as a market. It would be a disaster for area. As the honourable members for Melbourne the retail sector if the market were sold privately. I and Thomastown highlighted, many people, hope the government does a bit more than place particularly local residents, use the Queen Victoria QUEEN VICTORIA MARKET LANDS BILL

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Market as their regular shopping venue, and one can Aboriginal community and the covenants on the understand why given the variety of produce titles to be transferred. available at very competitive prices. The atmosphere of the market makes shopping a wonderful I put it to the house that there is a fourth level of experience. Although I live at the other end of the protection. The government believes the Melbourne state, when my family and I come to Melbourne we City Council shares its commitment to and enjoy going to the Queen Victoria Market and understanding of the need to maintain and promote soaking up the atmosphere, even if we do not intend the Queen Victoria Market. Although it was to purchase anything. The market is also of wonderful to hear the honourable member for wonderful historical value to the state. Melbourne say that he had found one group which he trusted even less than he did this government, I Ibis bill deals with land ownership of the market do not share his view. Whatever may be the political site. The market site comprises two parcels of background of the Melbourne City Council, and land - the buildings, which are on the heritage regardless of whether its members are elected or register, and the car park. The bill proposes to grant appointed, any member of the Melbourne City the heritage buildings land to the Melbourne City Council would understand the importance of the Council. However, the opposition seems to have Queen Victoria Market to the city of Melbourne and missed the point. The title on that land will be the people of Victoria. restricted when it is transferred to the council to make it absolutely clear that that land will be The fifth level of protection is the community, reserved for market purposes. That will provide because I do not think the community would allow Significant protection for the ongoing use of that any government or any city council to jeopardise the land. Queen Victoria Market. The community is very supportive. In fact, the Victorian community, The second component of the market site is the car particularly the community of Melbourne, loves the park, and all speakers have identified the need for Queen Victoria Market and the atmosphere and increased car parking facilities at the market. The bill facilities it provides. I do not think the community allows the government to sell that land to the would allow anything other than the continued use Melbourne City Council for appropriate of that site for the Queen Victoria Market in the form development of the car park to provide more in which it currently operates. adequate parking services for the market site. The use of the land will be restricted in the transfer TItis legislation will provide an opportunity for the process to ensure that the land is used for car Melbourne City Council in association with the parking and municipal purposes associated with the people at the market to improve the market and the adjoining market. Protection is built into that process. car park to make it accessible to a greater number of people and to help the market to develop and I want to recognise the agreement that has been promote itself further. That is why this important reached with the local Aboriginal community, which bill should be supported by all sides of the house has been commented on very well by the honourable and all Victorians. members for Morwell and Monbulk. They recognise the very appropriate tripartite agreement between House divided on omission: (members in favour the Wurundjeri tribe, the Melbourne City Council vote no): and the minister responsible. All parties discussed the agreement to ensure the protection of the Ayes, 50 AbOriginal heritage of this area. The market site was Andrighetto, Mr Maclellan, Mr previously used as a burial ground for the Ashley,Mr Maughan,Mr Wurundjeri tribe. Brown,Mr Napthine, Or Burke, Ms (Teller) Paterson, Mr The government will oppose the reasoned Clark,Mr Perrin,Mr amendment moved by the honourable member for Coleman,Mr Perton,Mr Bundoora because it believes the bill has more than Cooper,Mr Pescott,Mr adequate protections with regard to the future use of Dean,Or Peulich,Mrs this land and the ongoing role of the Queen Victoria Dixon, Mr (Teller) Phillips, Mr Market. The honourable member for Monbulk Doyle,Mr Plowman, Mr A.F. summarised those protections as the heritage Elder,Mr Reynolds, Mr protections on the buildings, the agreement with the Elliott, Mrs Richardson, Mr COMMONWEALTH POWERS (INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS) BILL

1712 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

Finn,Mr Rowe,Mr LAND (FURTHER REVOCATION OF Gude,Mr Ryan,Mr RESERVATIONS) BILL Henderson, Mrs Shardey, Mrs Jasper, Mr Smith, Mr ER Second reading Jenkins, Mr Smith, Mr I.w. Kilgour, Mr Spry,Mr Debate resumed from 14 November; motion of Lean,Mr Steggall, Mr Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Conservation and Land Leigh,Mr Tehan,Mrs Management) . Lupton,Mr Thompson, Mr McArthur, Mr Traynor,Mr Ms GARBUTT (Bundoora) - The Land (Further McCall,Ms Treasure, Mr Revocation of Reservations) Bill is a straightforward McGill,Mrs Wade,Mrs piece of proposed legislation. It is another in the McLellan,Mr Wells,Mr series of bills that provide for the revocation of land reservations. The bill applies to three separate pieces Noes, 30 of land. Andrianopoulos, Mr Hulls, Mr Baker,Mr Kosky,Ms Clause 3 revokes a reservation and Crown grant Batchelor, Mr Langdon,Mr over land at Carisbrook. The land was originally Bracks, Mr Leighton, Mr reserved in the last century as a well but no-one can Brumby,Mr Lim,Mr remember it ever having been used as a well, so it Cameron, Mr (Teller) Loney,Mr has either never been used as a well or its use has Campbell,Ms Maddigan, Mrs long been forgotten. Consequently, the reservation Carli, Mr (Teller) Micallef, Mr will be removed and the land will be sold. Cole,Mr Mildenhall, Mr Cunningham, Mr Pandazopoulos, Mr Clause 4 relates to a second piece of land, which is at Dollis, Mr Savage,Mr Bullarto South in the Ballarat area and was reserved Garbutt, Ms Seitz, Mr for water supply purposes in 1892. Currently it is Gillett, Ms Sheehan,Mr being used for grazing by an adjoining farmer. The Haermeyer, Mr Thwaites, Mr revocation of the reservation will allow the sale of Hamilton, Mr Wilson,Mrs the land, and we do not oppose that.

Amendment negatived. Clause 5 revokes a reservation in Bumley, which is where the third piece of land is located. Initially Motion agreed to. I had some concerns about the revocation because the land is reserved for public park and recreation Read second time. purposes. The piece of land lies between Swan Street and the K. Bartlett sporting ovals. It is a small piece Remaining stages of land that is cut off from the rest of the ovals and from the railway line, so it has never been Passed remaining stages. considered by the public as part of the park. It has been used for dumping various waste materials COMMONWEALTH POWERS from road construction and so on. Currently it is not (INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS) BILL used or regarded by the public as a park.

Returned from Council with message relating to The government informs me that it wishes to use the amendments. land mainly as railway sidings in which to stable trains at night to replace railway sidings that will be Ordered to be considered later this day. lost to the Federation Square development. The relevant municipality, the City of Yarra, is not opposing the revocation but it is seeking some compensation for what had been public parkland. The council has various proposals for its use, one of which is as a bike track. The minister should consider that view and I hope she is in contact with the City of Yarra. We do not oppose the revocation of the reservations on any of the three pieces of land. LAND (FURTHER REVOCA TION OF RESERVATIONS) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1713

Clause 7 refers to action that must be taken by the Ms GARBUTf - I referred to clause 7, which Land Titles Office. I want to make some comments clearly makes reference to the Registrar of Titles and about the office because there is some concern about the responsibility of that office. I am making it. I have been approached by many businesses - comments relating to that. small businesses, usually - that are called land title searchers. They are concerned about the proposal to The ACfING SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - licence or call for tenders for the computerisation Order! At this stage I will assume the honourable and management of the Land Titles Office. No member is making a passing reference to the Land details of that proposal have been made available; it Titles Office. I will allow it at this stage, but I ask her has been kept secret. to come back to the bill.

An Eltham North company that operates a land title Ms GARBUTf - I refer to just one other matter searching service complained to me that the on which I hope the minister will respond - the tendering process has been closed to all but one or privacy issue. Every aspect of every title in Victoria two preferred tenderers and others have been is recorded in the Land Titles Office. Clause 7 denied the opportunity to bid. The company has provides for further changes to be made to records, objected but has been unable to obtain any so every time something goes through Parliament, information. It is concerned that what happened in every time there is a change to a land title, it goes to Queensland where a similar course was embarked the Land Titles Office. The proposal to contract out upon will happen in Victoria - the small title the work will result in information being available to searchers were forced out of business. some commercial licensee.

This is a major issue among the small firms that use I refer to the letter I received from Corporate the Land Titles Office to obtain information that is Searching and Services, which points out that then sold to solicitors and others who handle information about the purchase price, the name of conveyancing. I am told that in Queensland all the the mortgagee, how much the purchaser borrowed title-searching companies were put out of business and the terms of repayments will be available to and many of the Victorian companies have whoever gets the licence. Caveats arising from expressed concern. Family Court or legal aid matters are also recorded on titles. All of that information will be available to a There are 45 searching companies across Victoria private company if the proposal is followed through. and I think I have received correspondence from It is a matter of grave concern to the general public most of them. They are concerned for their future and the searching companies, which fear that the and have raised several issues apart from the fact government is about to put them out of business, that they have been completely locked out of the just as happened in Queensland. They have not been process and do not know what is in the tender consulted or given any information and they would document. As participants in the industry they have appreciate the minister providing them with a clear interest in what is going on. Their comments information. are well expressed by the searching company from Eltham North, which says that while the I want the minister to take this opportunity to go government claims to be a champion of small back to the 45 search companies across Victoria that business-- are concerned about what is happening at the Land Titles Office. They would appreciate some Mrs Tehan - Mr Acting Speaker, on a point of information and some consideration. As I have said, order, although I am sure the honourable member the bill involves three small pieces of land. The Oty for Bundoora is speaking about a matter of interest of Yarra has some plans for the land at Burnley that to her, under no circumstances can it be seen to be it would like to implement and seeks some pertinent to what she said was a small bill, compensation for losing that public parkland. providing for the revocation of three specific Overall, the opposition is not opposing the bill. reservations. As I understand it, the honourable member has now started speaking about proposals Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Conservation and for automation of the Land Titles Office. That is Land Management) - I thank the honourable nowhere within the ambit of the second-reading member for Bundoora for her contribution. When speech, and I suggest the honourable member be she started her speech I was going to say that it was asked to come back to the matter before the house. a positive contribution without any sting in the tail to a small but practical bill, but she seemed to have COMMONWEALTH POWERS (INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS) BILL

1714 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 great difficulty of maintaining a bipartisan approach COMMONWEALTH POWERS or making an objective assessment of the legislation (INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS) BILL before the house. She has to always take upon herself some political sting and use every Message from Council relating to amendments opportunity, even to the extent of being completely considered. responsible for the abrogation of the reconstruction of Parliament house. She really has a reputation -- Council's amendments: 1. Clause 3,lines 21 to 23, omit "member of the police Mr Bracks - On a point of order, the minister is force, a police reservist and a protective services not summarising the matters which concern the bill officer" and insert "law enforcement officer". but is debating the position of the opposition and matters which do not pertain to the bill. She is 2. Clause 3, lines 28 and 29, omit "member of the police getting on to the Parliament House Completion force, a police reservist or a protective services Authority, which has no relationship to this bill at alL officer" and insert "law enforcement officer". 3. Clause 3, after line 31, insert- Mrs TEHAN - The member for Bundoora was straying a long, long way from the second-reading '''law enforcement officer" means a member of speech and the purpose of the debate on this bill. the police force, a police reservist, a police recruit However, Mr Acting Speaker, I am prepared to or a protective services officer;'. continue with the debate within its narrow confines. 4. Clause 4, page 5, line 6, omit "an employee's employment" and insert "the employment of an The ACflNG SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - employee, other than a law enforcement officer". Order! On the point of order taken by the member for Williamstown, I believe that the minister did 5. Clause 4, page 6, after line 7 insert- respond and on that basis I will not uphold the point of order at this stage. "(8) The matter of attempting to settle, conciliate or arbitrate, or exercising any other power in relation Mrs TEHAN - This bill brings to completion the to, an industrial matter or industrial dispute, being revocation of certain reservations concerning a water an industrial matter or industrial dispute that supply at Bullarto, a public well at Carisbrook and arose before the commencement of Part 3 and in land that had been reserved for a public park, and relation to which the Employee Relations public recreation at Burnley but which it has been Commission of Victoria exercised, or could have agreed. has just become a waste dump. That land exercised, powers

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1715

discipline or termination of employment of law (b) are required to work to satisfy the practical enforcement officers;". training and experience requirements of the course. 9. Insert the following heading and new clause to follow clause 12: (7) The exemption order may- 'PART 6-VOCATIONAL EDUCATION AND (a) in the case of any students, provide that the TRAINING ACT 1990 students are not required to be paid for the work; and AA. New Part 7A inserted in Vocational Education and Training Act 1990 (b) in the case of students required to work more than 240 hours as part of a course After Part 7 of the Vocational Education and requirement, specify the appropriate rate Training Act 1990 insert- of pay which may be less than the "PART 7A-MINIMUM TERMS AND minimum rate of pay that would be the CONDITIONS applicable rate of pay referred to in sub-section (1). 91AB. Rates ofpay (8) A certificate of exemption in force under section (1) An employer must pay a student the relevant 16 of the Employee Relations Act 1992, as in minimum rate of pay that would be applicable force irnrnediately before its repeal, or an under paragraph 1(e) of Schedule lA to the exemption order in force under section 16A of Workplace Relations Act 1996 of the that Act, continues in force for the purposes of Commonwealth if the student were an this section as if it had been given or made, as employee within the meaning of Part XV of the case requires, under this section.".'. that Act. 10. Schedule 2, item 11(b), line 8, before "the" insert (2) Sub-section (1) does not apply in respect of a "section 4(1) of". student- 11. Schedule 3, line 23, after "former Act" insert "(except (a) holding a certificate of exemption under this under Division 1 of Part 5 of that Act)". section; or 12. Schedule 3, line 28, after "Court" insert "or, in the (b) to whom an exemption order under this case of an application under Division 1 of Part 5 of section applies. the former Act, the Australian Industrial Relations (3) The Secretary to the Department of Education Commission". may give a student a certificate of exemption 13. Schedule 3, page 23, line 26, after "Court" insert "or, if the Secretary is satisfied that the student- in the case of an application under Division 1 of (a) is undertaking a post-secondary education Part 5 of the former Act, the Australian Industrial course; and Relations Commission". (b) is required to work during those studies for 14. Schedule 3, page 23, line 31, after "Court" insert "or the purpose of gaining knowledge and the Australian Industrial Relations Commission, as skill which relates to those studies. the case requires".

(4) The Secretary to the Department of Education 15. Schedule 3, page 23, line 33, after "Magistrate" insert may impose conditions on a certificate of "or the President of the Australian Industrial exemption. Relations Commission, as the case requires,".

(5) The student and any employer must comply 16. Schedule 3, page 23, line 36, after "Magistrate" insert with any condition imposed under "or the President of the Australian Industrial sub-section (4). Relations Commission".

Penalty: 10 penalty units. 17. Schedule 3, page 23, line 38, after "Magistrate's" insert "or the President's". (6) The Secretary to the Department of Education may make an exemption order in relation to 18. Schedule 3, page 24, after line 3 insert­ any class of students if the Secretary is "4 Pending proceedings under former Act satisfied that the students - (1) In this clause, urelevant proceeding" means a (a) are undertaking a post-secondary education proceeding under the former Act except under course; and Division 1 of Part 5 of that Act- COMMONWEALTH POWERS (INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS) BILL

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(a) begun before the former Commission before and determined by the Industrial Division of the commencement day and which had the Magistrates' Court in accordance with the not been completed at that day; and former Act and anything done in relation to that proceeding must, so far as consistent with (b) that could have been brought before the that Act, be taken to have been done for the Australian Industrial Relations purposes of the hearing and determination of Commission if it had been begun on or the proceeding by the Magistrates' Court. after the commencement day; and (6) If any difficulty arises in any particular matter (c) with respect to the hearing and because of the operation of this clause, the determination of which provision is not Chief Magistrate may make any order that he made on the commencement day by the or she considers appropriate to resolve the Commonwealth Act or the Workplace difficulty. Relations and Other Legislation Amendment Act (No. 2) 1996 of the (7) The Chief Magistrate may make an order under Commonwealth. sub-clause (6) on the application of a party to the matter, or on the Chief Magistrate's own (2) If before the commencement day the former initiative. Commission had begun to hear any relevant proceeding and at that day evidence on any (8) An order under sub-clause (6) has effect despite question of fact material to that proceeding anything to the contrary in the former Act. had been given to the former Commission but 5. New proceedings underformer Act the proceeding had not been finally determined, any party to the proceeding may (1) In this clause, urelevant proceeding" means a apply in writing to the Industrial Division of proceeding under the former Act except under the Magistrates' Court for a determination Division 1 of Part 3 or Division 6 of Part 5- under sub-clause (3). (a) that was not brought before the former (3) On an application under sub-clause (2), the Commission before the commencement Industrial Division of the Magistrates' Court day; and may determine- (b) that could have been brought before the (a) to accept the proceeding as part-heard and former Commission before the to continue the hearing; or commencement day; and

(b) to re-hear the proceeding- (c) with respect to the hearing and determination of which provision is not in accordance with the former Act. made on the commencement day by the (4) If a relevant proceeding is continued to be Commonwealth Act or the Workplace heard, or is re-heard, by the Industrial Relations and Other Legislation Division of the Magistrates' Court in Amendment Act (No. 2) 1996 of the accordance with a determination under Commonwealth. sub-clause (3), anything done in relation to (2) A relevant proceeding may be brought before that proceeding before the commencement the Industrial Division of the Magistrates' day shall, so far as consistent with the former Court in accordance with the former Act and Act, be taken to have been done for the the Industrial Division may hear and purposes of the hearing and determination of determine the proceeding in accordance with the proceeding by the Magistrates' Court and that Act and, for this purpose, that Act has the Court may, for the purposes of the hearing effect as if a reference in it to the former or re-hearing, have regard to any record of the Commission were a reference to the Industrial earlier proceeding before the former Division. Commission. (3) If any difficulty arises in any particular matter (5) If before the commencement day a relevant because of the operation of this clause, the proceeding was pending before the former Chief Magistrate may make any order that he Commission but the former Commission had or she considers appropriate to resolve the not begun to hear it or had begun to hear it difficulty. but at the commencement day had not been given evidence on any question of fact (4) The Chief Magistrate may make an order under material to it, the proceeding is to be heard sub-clause (3) on the application of a party to EDUCATION (STANDARDS COUNCIL) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1717

the matter, or on the Chief Magistrate's own These activities have been the basis for reporting initiative. findings and developing recommendations to support teacher professionalism. (5) An order under sub-clause (3) has effect despite anything to the contrary in the fonner Act.'. Under the bill, the standards council will retain its Amendments agreed to on motion of Mrs TEHAN existing function of advising the minister and the (Minister for Conservation and Land Management). Secretary to the Department of Education on such matters as the criteria for the employment and EDUCATION (STANDARDS COUNCIL) professional advancement of persons in the state BILL teaching service. However, the bill will make the following changes to the standards council: Second reading (i) First, it will extend the functions of the standards council beyond the state school MI5 TEHAN (Minister for Conservation and sector to the wider teaching profession. Land Management) - I move: 'Teaching profession' in this context will include teachers in non-government schools. That this bill be now read a second time. The standards council will identify, develop and The Standards Council of the Teaching Profession promulgate recommended professional standards was established in 1993 as a statutory body with a appropriate to the teaching profession. maximum of nine members. Sections 10 to 10C of the Teaching Service Act 1981 govern its operations, and It is not intended to change the Standards Council in essence its functions are to advise the Minister for of the Teaching Profession into an occupational Education and the secretary on all matters relating to regulatory body, nor is it the intention of the professional standards for the employment of government to require persons outside the members of the teaching service. Department of Education, such as employers of teachers in non-government schools, to conform In performing its present advisory function, its main with standards promulgated by the standards focus has been to recognise and enhance teaching council. The intention is that the standards quality in Victorian government schools, and its council will act as a facilitator, collating brief includes providing advice on continued information on teaching professional standards professional development and training for teachers and publicising appropriate standards. and recommending criteria for teachers' (ii) Secondly, the maximum membership of the advancement and professional standards for standards council will be expanded to allow teachers in state schools. for the inclusion of members with a broad range of backgrounds in education and In undertaking its advisory role the council consults industry. It is envisaged that the membership widely with teachers. It develops information papers of the standards council will include teachers on good teaching practice and works closely with in the Catholic and independent school universities, teacher educators, educational systems. administrators and other interested groups in the educational community. It has been successful in In relation to its increase in functions: ascertaining the views of teachers by developing (i) New functions of the standards council will interest groups to consider professional issues. include- Issues canvassed in this way have included: evaluating education courses and training for identification of best classroom practice; the teaching profession; recognising best practice in the strategies for successful professional development; teaching profession; and ethical principles and professional relationships enhancing the status of the which underpin teaching practice; and teaching profession in the community. essential components for the professional With regard to course evaluation, the intent of the preparation of trainee teachers. bill is not to give the council a generalised evaluative role in relation to a set of university EDUCATION (TRESPASS) BILL

1718 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

courses, but rather to allow it to consider these Background courses from the point of view of their suitability for initial teacher appointment and ongoing By way of background, there has been an alarming teacher training. number of incidents involving trespassers on state school property. Some incidents are more serious or As a consequence the standards council will play potentially more dangerous than others. However, a part in attracting high quality entrants to the most involve situations where the safety of students teaching profession, leading to high quality and the school community is at risk, and the normal teachers in our schools. operations of the school are disrupted in having to deal with the matter. (ii) The standards council will have the added function of promulgating information to the The numerous letters and representations received teaching profession and the wider by the department seeking to address the situation community about the issues it has researched have been augmented by the results of a recent and developed. survey conducted by the Victorian Association of To emphasise the expanded scope of the standards State Secondary Principals. That survey listed the council, the sections of the Teaching Service Act 1981 following types of trespassers on state school which currently govern the council will be property as a major concern to secondary principals: transferred to the Education Act 1958. (i) groups entering school property to settle scores with students; The proposal provides an opportunity for Victoria to take a leading role in achieving teaching profession (ii) groups of youths entering school property best practice without interfering with the private during school hours; sector's determination of its own employment (iii) ex-students loitering on property; requirements. (iv) youths driving vehicles onto school property; This government recognises that Victoria's future (v) intruders suspected of ill intent, such as drug lies with its children. The higher the quality of our pushing; and children's education, the better prepared they will be to face the challenges and opportunities presented to (vi) intruders outside normal school hours. them as adults. Whether it is the local gang loitering on the school grounds or gathering on school grounds to start a The amendments in this bill are designed to enhance fight; unsavoury elements loitering on school the quality of education in Victorian schools by grounds sometimes suspected of trying to sell drugs improving the standards of professional teaching to children, or other visitors being belligerent or a practice. nuisance, all these persons are essentially trespassers on school grounds and principals need effective I commend the bill to the house. laws to deal with them. Debate adjourned on motion of Mr MILDENHALL At present, the trespass laws applying in state (Footscray). schools are the same laws that apply to other property in Victoria. Those laws are stated in Debate adjourned until Thursday, 19 December. section 9(1)(d) of the Summary Offences Act 1966. EDUCATION (TRESPASS) BILL That section states: Any person who ... wilfully trespasses in any place and Second reading neglects or refuses to leave that place after being warned to do so by the owner occupier or a person Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Conservation and authorised by or on behalf of the owner or occupier ... Land Management) - I move: shall be guilty of an offence. That this bill be now read a second time. At first sight the section appears adequate to deal with trespassers. However, the section has had The pwpose of the bill is to amend the trespass laws limited success in its application to state schools for in state schools. the following reasons: EDUCATION (TRESPASS) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1719

(i) First, persons who have been previously An offence is committed if the person re-enters the warned to stay off school property must be property within two years of the warning. Without given a further warning to leave each time limiting any other defence to a charge, a defence is they re-enter the property. It means that a available if a defendant enters the premises due to trespasser who is ordered to leave one day an emergency or for the protection of property or can return the next day and stay on school persons. property until he or she is again told to leave (iv) Clause 20E authorises a warning to leave or by the principal. On being told to leave a stay off property to be delivered orally or in second time, the person can leave and return writing, or by registered mail, and clause 20F the next day and stay on school property until requires trespassers on the premises to state he or she is again told to leave by the their name and address upon request by the principal for the third time. lhis process can police or occupier. keep repeating itself. (v) Clauses 20G and 201 are machinery and (iD Secondly, for evidentiary purposes, the police evidentiary prOvisions, and under clause 20H prefer a warning to be given by the principal proceedings against trespassers may be taken in the presence of the police. lhis is by the police or a person authorised by the understandable, as the police require the occupier. evidence for any trespass charge. However, it is time-consuming and involves a potentially (vi) Under clause 20B, the occupier is the Minister dangerous situation for principals to have to for Education, and under subsequent clauses wait for the police to arrive before they the Minister may authorise officers of the deliver the warning or, having delivered the department to exercise the powers of warning, have to wait for the police to arrive occupier, subject to any limitations or and go out and redeliver it. conditions that the Minister may impose. Proposed amendments (vii)Under clauses 20C and 20D, the penalty for the second offence of trespassing is increased The bill addresses the above issues by introducing to 25 penalty units or imprisonment for six provisions in the Education Act 1958 which largely months. mirror sections of the New Zealand Trespass Act The main change this bill makes is that a principal, 1980 and the Northern Territory Trespass Act 1987. on being authorised by the Minister, will be able to The following is a summary of its provisions: issue a notice to a trespasser warning him or her to (i) Clause 20B in subsections (2) and (3) defines the stay off the premises, and proceedings can be taken word 'trespasser' for the purposes of the bill. if the trespasser breaches that notice by re-entering The definition reflects the present the land. This change is in contrast to the present common-law meaning of the word. position which requires a warning to be given to trespassers to leave the property each time they (ii) Clause 20C creates the offence of trespass after enter it, and which enables trespassers to return to warning to leave if a person neglects or school premises and to stay on the premises until the refuses to leave after being warned to do so. occupier re-issues a warning. Without limiting any other defence to a charge, a defence is available if a defendant The bill has the support of the Victorian Association remains on the premises due to an emergency of State Secondary Principals, the Victorian Primary or for the protection of property or persons. Principals Association and the Association of School This section largely reflects the present Councils in Victoria. It will assist in ensuring the section 9(1)(d) of the Summary Offences Act safety of children attending state schools as well as 1966. staff and the school community, and it will assist (ill) Clause 20D authorises an occupier to warn a principals to efficiently manage schools in an person to stay off property - environment with reduced risks to all concerned. (a) if a person is trespassing, or I commend the bill to the house. (b) within a reasonable time of the person trespassing, or Debate adjourned on motion of Mr MILDENHALL (Footscray). (c) if the occupier has reasonable cause to suspect that a person may trespass. Debate adjourned until Thursday, 19 December. FISHERIES (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

1720 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

FISHERIES (FURTHER AMENDMENT) The bill also proposes the simplification and BILL rationalisation of licensing procedures, largely in the commercial sectors of the industry. In order to Second reading protect the resource we must control access to it and lay down rules for the manner in which the resource Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Conservation and is to be used. We must also provide certainty and Land Management) - I move: consistency for the users, since it will then be in their interests to promote resource conservation. That this bill be now read a second time. The bill provides for a simple licensing system The bill introduces a further suite of reforms to which reflects the commercial realities of conducting promote best practice in the management of a fishing operation, the needs of recreational fishers Victoria's fisheries. The marine resource and the and the government's responsibilities for overseeing industry which it supports are unlike other rural the management of the total resource. Those who industries. Firstly, they rely to a large degree upon a have a serious commercial involvement in the wild resource requiring management regimes industry know that it is in their best interests to different from those applying in any other industry. conduct their operations in a manner which Secondly, the industry covers a particularly wide promotes the sustainability of the resource and range of stakeholders with interests which must be which adds value to the product. Recreational balanced with each other and reconciled with the fishers also understand the need to use the resource overriding need for sustainable management of the responsibly to ensure that it is able to support their resource. leisure activity in the future. I look forward to the development of a partnership approach to resource The focus of the bill is the refinement and management both through the formal mechanism of simplification of the existing management the co-management council and through less formal framework for the fisheries resource to promote networks to promote the long-term interests of all sustainability of the resource and a genuine parties. partnership between government and users. The bill provides flexibility for different fisheries to The existing legislation provides the framework for be managed in the most appropriate manner and for the fisheries co-management council, which draws management regimes to change with altered together in its membership the diverse skills and circumstances. The act already provides for interests among the stakeholders in this industry, management planning of fisheries. This building including those charged with managing its block of rational and sustainable fishery regulation. I am pleased to say that the council has management will be used to provide certainty to commenced its work. I look forward to its further users of the resource about the conditions under development as a communication channel between which it may be used. Some draft management the minister and the industry and as a forum for plans have been prepared and it is proposed to debate on the very serious issues which inevitably update and review the process in order to produce arise in managing what we all recognise to be a plans which focus on the key issues for each fishery fragile resource. As part of the bill, I am proposing a and the needs of client groups. further role for the co-management council in promoting codes of conduct. These will be a Important issues which have been raised by measure of best practice in various sectors of the recreational fishers relate to sustainability of the industry, to be voluntarily adopted by industry. resource including suitable catch limits and the need for closed seasons to allow for protection of breeding The act already establishes a process for habitat and spawning stock. Specific provisions in consideration of whether recreational fishing in the bill will allow the setting of suitable catch limits marine waters should be licensed and there is no with the ability to set severe penalties for each fish change in the bill to that process, which has already taken above the legal limit in a fishery such as commenced. This question was an early reference to abalone which is prescribed to be a priority species. the co-management council, which is preparing a The aim in managing recreational fisheries will be to report which will be the subject of consultation with promote an ethic of a sport which is respectful of the recreational fishers, in addition to the consultation environment and the resource. This is a view already with the Premier and Treasurer required by the act. promoted by the recreational peak body. EVIDENCE (AUDIO VISUAL AND AUDIO LINKING) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1721

Resource protection requires suitable sanctions EVIDENCE (AUDIO VISUAL AND against those who violate the rules for its use. In AUDIO LINKING) BILL developing the offences linked to the licensing structure of the bill, a great deal of thought has gone Second reading into ensuring that the gravity of an offence is accurately reflected in the penalties. The concept has Mrs TEHAN (Minister for Conservation and been that some offences are against the integrity of Land Management) - I move: the resource and that these should be reflected in severe penalties, particularly in those sectors where That this bill be now read a second time. the resource is scarce or of high market value. The Evidence (Audio Visual and Audio Linking) Bill Following from this legislation, new regulations reflects the government's commitment to enhancing governing all aspects of fisheries will be made to access to the courts in Victoria and its recognition accommodate the requirements of this fresh and understanding of the benefits that changing approach to management. Where necessary, the technology can bring. The bill provides that in existing regulations will be reviewed in the light of suitable cases persons may appear before the courts best practice from other jurisdictions. For example, it by audio or audiovisual facilities, rather than being is intended that this approach be adopted with the required to appear physically before the court. It will recreational trout fishery. enable access to court services at less cost and inconvenience to parties, particularly where a The bill makes provision for the granting of licences witness resides at a location distant from the hearing for aquaculture. The facilitation of an aquaculture venue. The use of this technology will in all cases be industry will be a major focus in the immediate subject to the court's ability to control the future. The industry in Victoria has not as yet transmission. Courts will have an overriding reached the level of development attained in other discretion to order that a person physically appear parts of Australia and the world, but there is great before them where it is considered appropriate in interest in this young industry. As necessary, further the interests of justice. legislative measures will be brought forward to support its growth. This technology is likely to be used in a number of situations, particularly in preliminary matters. It will As an indication of the desire for partnership in enable receipt of evidence from witnesses in distant management of the fishery resource, the bill is locations who may currently suffer loss and introduced in this present sitting to provide time for hardship in being absent from home, business or the users of the resource to consider in detail the employment in order to travel to distant court measures it contains. There is already a healthy level venues. It will also enable expert witnesses to give of consultation and discussion between the evidence more conveniently and cheaply. The regulators in the Department of Natural Resources technology will enable courts to receive evidence and Environment and the peak bodies representing from witnesses and parties in domestic violence or commercial and recreational users of the resource. other urgent applications particularly from rural The spirit of cooperation which already exists can areas where a court may not be available or sitting only be of benefit. I look forward to the continued on a particular day. The technology will also be used development of best practice and sustainable to receive evidence from defendants on remand in management of our fishery resource. The bill is a preliminary hearings. This will avoid the cost and significant advance towards that goal. inconvenience of prisoner transport to and from the court. I commend the bill to the house. The bill follows successful trials which have been Debate adjourned on motion of Mr LONEY conducted by the County Court and Magistrates (Geelong North). Court with the consent of parties, including the successful linking of the Magistrates Court with the Debate adjourned until Thursday, 19 December. Melbourne Remand Centre several years ago.

That trial was so successful that the facilities established for the trial have been regularly used since then. EVIDENCE (AUDIO VISUAL AND AUDIO LINKING) BILL

1722 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

Similar technology and underpinning legislation The bill contains a separate provision which requires have been operating successfully in other parts of a person held in custody who is to be brought before Australia. The Federal Court has had the power to a court at his or her first remand hearing to appear receive evidence by telephone or video link since physically, unless he or she consents to appear by 1989. This power was subsequently extended in 1994 audiovisual link. As such hearings should be held to enable it to make rules for the making or receipt within 24 hours of the person being taken into of submissions. The conduct of bail applications and custody, there would otherwise be insufficient time remand hearings with the accused person appearing to comply with the previously mentioned notice by video link is already provided for in a number of requirements. Australian jurisdictions includlng New South Wales and Queensland. This bill encompasses all these The bill provides that in committal proceedings, matters and builds upon the experience of other trials, hearings of the charge, sentencing hearings, jurisdictions. and appeals, it will be presumed that the accused person should physically appear before the court. In The bill deals with the appearance before the court these more substantial matters, either the of an accused person held in custody separately prosecution or the accused may apply for the from the appearance of other persons. The bill accused to appear by audiovisual link. The court recognises the special needs of children who come may grant the application if all parties have before the court. Special provisions apply to the use consented to it and the court is satisfied that it is in of this technology for children who are accused the interests of justice. persons, and children who are the subject of protection application proceedings. Otherwise the court may order that the person should appear by an audiovisual link if satisfied that Appearance by an accused in custody exceptional circumstances exist. In line with the current power of the courts to exclude an accused The bill provides a presumption that prisoners held person from a hearing in exceptional circumstances, in custody will appear before the court by it is expected that this power may be exercised, for audiovisual link if it is reasonably practicable in example, where it is considered the physical nominated preliminary matters. These matters are appearance of the accused would be a threat to the bail and remand hearings other than the first safety of members of the public or the co-accused, or hearing, mentions, status hearings, applications for where the accused is disruptive in court. adjournment, and arraignments that take place on a date prior to the trial or plea date. The presumption that accused persons will physically appear before the court for more This presumption will ensure that unnecessary substantial cases, particularly trials, will ensure that movements of prisoners are minimised. This will this will continue to happen in most cases. The have benefits for the courts, for the prisoners, and exceptions will ensure that the court retains a for the state. The courts will benefit by improved discretion to use the technology in appropriate cases. scheduling of matters, and fewer delays resulting from the movement of prisoners; prisoners will If an application is made for the accused to appear benefit by avoiding the inconvenience of transfer to by an audiovisual1ink, the bill provides that a victim the court for minor matters; and the state will benefit may make a submission to the court addressing this by costs savings and greater prisoner security. application. The government recognises that a victim may have an interest in seeing the accused person In these matters, the court will retain a discretion to appear physically in court and may want to be heard order the accused to appear physically before it, if on this matter. Provision is also made for any other satisfied that this would be in the interests of justice. hearing involving the accused which is not Orders for the accused to physically appear in these specifically mentioned in these other prOvisions. In matters may be made at the court's own initiative or these hearings the use of video link will be at the upon the application of either the accused or the discretion of the court. prosecution. The bill sets out a procedure including a three-day notice requirement for the making of To ensure that an accused at a remote facility can these applications. The court will retain a discretion, communicate in private with his or her lawyer, the however, to dispense with these requirements if it bill provides that both the court and the prison considers it appropriate. A further application may facility must be equipped with facilities that enable also be made in the course of the proceeding. private communication and the transmission of EVIDENCE (AUDIO VISUAL AND AUDIO LINKING) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1723 documents between these persons. Any such considering what is in the interests of justice, the communication is as confidential and as court must take into account the ability of the child inadmissible as if it took place while they were in to give adequate instructions to counsel and each other's presence. The bill applies the Listening understand the proceedings. In considering what is Devices Act 1969 to communications by an audio or in the interests of the child, the court may consider audiovisual link and documents transmitted the security and protection of the child and whether between an accused and his or her legal practitioner. physical appearance would cause unacceptable emotional distress or suffering, and it must consider Appearance of persons other than the accused the wishes of the child.

The bill provides courts with a general discretion to General provisions allow persons, other than the accused in a criminal proceeding, to appear before the court by use of an The bill contains a number of general prOvisions audio or audiovisual link. The court may make such which will apply to all proceedings linked by audio a direction of its own volition or upon the or audiovisual technology. application of a party. Any party to a proceeding who opposes such an application is specifically Provision is made for the transmission of documents permitted to be heard. to and from remote witnesses and the receipt of these documents into evidence. The bill also ensures The court will be able to direct the use of this that a person giving evidence from a remote point is technology so a person may give evidence, make a subject to the laws of evidence and laws relating to submission or appear before a court if it considers its court procedure, contempt of court and perjury. This use is justified. This bill does not affect sections 37B, is achieved by deeming the remote point to be a part 37C, or 370 of the Evidence Act 1958. For a witness of the court room. who comes within the application of these provisions, the new provisions will also be available. The courts have the ability to control the use of In this case the court will consider the application in audiovisual and audio facilities through rules of its broad discretion as to whether use of the court and practice directions. It is appropriate to technology is appropriate. confer these powers upon the courts because of the technical nature of the anticipated rules, and because The bill enables the courts to determine who pays the requirements are matters which are properly for the link. The use of this technology should prove within the knowledge of the courts. In accordance less expensive than physically appearing in court for with the Subordinate Legislation Act 1994 these many parties and witnesses who reside at distant rules may be disallowed by a house of Parliament. locations from the court. The government is committed to providing quicker, Appearance of children more efficient, and more cost-effective access to the justice system. It is also committed to ensuring that The bill deals separately with accused persons who Victoria embraces the use of developing are children. The presumption that an accused technologies where appropriate. This bill combines appears by audiovisual link in some preliminary both these aims while also ensuring that the interests matters will not apply to children. Instead there will of justice are respected. be a presumption that children will always physically appear before the court. However, the I commend this bill to the house. court may order a child held in custody to appear by video link if it is in the interests of justice and all Debate adjourned on motion of Mr HULLS parties consent, or if exceptional circumstances exist. (Niddrie).

Children who are the subject of proceedings under Debate adjourned until Thursday, 19 December. the Family Division of the Children and Young Persons Act 1989 are dealt with separately. The bill ensures that if an audiovisual link is being considered in such proceedings, the special needs of these children are taken into account. The court must take account of what is in the best interests of the child and what is in the interests of justice. In PLANNING AND ENVIRONM ENT (PLANNING SCHEM ES) BILL

1724 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT local area are alarmed, amazed and outraged. Only (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL yesterday, a petition signed by some 3000 people was tabled in this house objecting strongly to the Second reading Niddrie quarry site being filled with toxic waste. Why wouldn't people object to that proposal? Debate resumed from 4 December; motion of Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and Local When the development was first proposed and it Government); and on Mr DOLLIS's amendment: was made quite clear that toxic waste would be dumped on the Niddrie quarry site a huge number That all the words after 'That' be omitted with the view of objections were made to the local council and of inserting in place thereof the words 'this house many public meetings were organised by a wide refuses to read this bill a second time until the cross-section of the community. The convenor of the government has had further consultation with relevant Steel Creek preservation group, Mr Trevor Sinclair, organisations and the community about the was able to gamer an enormous amount of support ramifications of the bill and gone through a fonnal for his proposal to stop the site from being filled exhibition and panel process in relation to the Victoria with toxic waste. Helen Vandenberg and many other Planning Provisions which form a major part of the people have also been active in opposing this proposed planning reforms, thereby allowing citizens development proposal. the opportunity to express their concern about any detrimental impacts it may have on the future use and A number of submissions were made to the local development of land in this state'. council, which took quite some time to reach a decision. However, it did reach a conclusion and it Mr HULLS (Niddrie) - As we heard last night held a public meeting on 21 October to make public from the shadow minister for planning and major its recommendations with regard to that site. It is projects, the aim of the bill is to reform the structure proposed to use and develop the land as a of planning schemes in this state, provide for the non-putrescible landfill and to undertake works to preparation of municipal strategic statements, facilitate the rehabilitation and future residential use provide for the making of Victoria Planning of the land in accordance with the landfill Provisions, and provide a coordinated procedure for management plan, traffic management plan, the issue of planning permits with the approval of landscape management plan and overall related amendments to planning schemes. development plan. The application also includes the construction and use of an access road, fencing and The shadow minister has moved a reasoned associated works in Spring Gully reserve, if required. amendment, which obviously I support. The opposition has a number of concerns about the bill. The council then made a number of The most significant concern is that this legislation recommendations, including that the planning represents a significant attack on the independence application for the development and use of land of councils and directs all the changes to the described in the application, and commonly known attention of the minister, so it will put enormous as the Niddrie quarry, for the purpose of a power into the hands of the minister. non-putrescible landfill be refused, on the following grounds: it is absolutely inappropriate; it will be a From time to time the minister has already used the health risk to the people in the area; the proposed enormous powers he has. One area in my electorate traffic management plan is totally inappropriate; where the minister has recently used those powers is and it does not fit in with the appropriate planning known as the Niddrie quarry site. The quarry has requirements. been the subject of some concern for many years, and various proposals have been put up and rejected The decision made by the council was from time to time. One proposal that is currently overwhelmingly welcomed by the people of before the Moonee Valley City Council is to use the Niddrie, particularly those who live around the site as a toxic dump. I am not saying that just as the quarry site. The council made it clear the proposed local member; the developer of a proposed housing development would have a detrimental impact not development on that site has made it quite clear that just on the amenity of the area but also on the health toxic waste will be tipped onto the site. We are of the local residents. As a result, the developer talking about toxic waste being dumped on that site lodged an appeal, as is its right, with the for some 10 years, because that is how long it will Administrative Appeals Tribunal. The grounds for take to fill the quarry site. Obviously people in the appeal were attached to the application. The PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1725 developer submitted in its appeal that the and that the negative impact of the proposal could development would not have an adverse impact on not be underestimated. the environment and that the type and volume of traffic associated with the rehabilitation of the In the last paragraph of my letter I advised the quarry would not have an unacceptably detrimental minister that while I understood the need for due impact on the amenity of the area. In other words, process in matters such as these I sought an the grounds of the appeal were the exact opposite of assurance from him that he would not attempt to the reasons the council decided not to issue the override the wishes and concerns of the people of permit. the Niddrie electorate as expressed by the decision of the Moonee Valley City Council. On 15 November A number of people made an application to the I received the minister's reply. I am pleased to say Administrative Appeals Tribunal about the that the minister advised me that he had not developer's appeal, as is their right. In the main, received a request to call in the appeal and he did people were extremely concerned about the effect of not believe that it would be appropriate for him to this development. As the local member I also lodged intervene in the matter at this stage. He also advised grounds of objection to the proposal, and I was very me that if I had any further inquiries I could contact keen to represent the people of Niddrie at the Sharon Owen of the council support unit on a Administrative Appeals Tribunal and to make it particular telephone number. quite clear that it was an inappropriate development not only for my electorate but the whole inner or I was heartened by the minister's letter because it outer metropolitan area of Melbourne and that the seemed to suggest that, firstly, he had not been people of my electorate would not allow the contacted about the proposal and, secondly, that he proposal to go ahead because it would have a was not going to call it in. In fact, his letter said that disastrous environmental and health impact on them. he did not believe it was appropriate for him to intervene in the matter at this particular stage. As a A date has yet to be set for the AAT hearing. I also result many local community members formed the took the precaution of writing to the minister about view that the proper process would be followed and the matter because I was extremely concerned that their objections would be heard at the the minister might not be aware of the strength of Administrative Appeals Tribunal. But, 10 and feeling in the electorate about the proposal. There is behold, things changed significantly. They also overwhelming outrage about the proposal, but it has changed quickly. wider ramifications than just the electorate of Niddrie; it really is a state issue. Why should people, As recently as yesterday a letter from the minister particularly those living in Labor electorates, be addressed to the AA T and dated 29 November - targeted with developments to dump toxic waste in less than two weeks after I received the minister's their areas? It appears that some of the waste that is original letter - saying the minister had decided to proposed to be dumped will come from the Gty call this development in was faxed to my office. The link development. I understand the developers of minister's decision can mean only one thing. The that project need somewhere to dump much of the letter is addressed to Mr McHenry, the Registrar of waste that will be dug up, and someone has the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, and states: obviously said there is a large quarry site in Niddrie, which is a Labor electorate. People living in Labor I refer to the above appeal. electorates should not be the subject of such developments. I have formed the view that the appeal raises major policy issues relating to the facilitation of development As a precaution I wrote to the minister on in accordance with the objectives set out in section 4 of 22 October and referred him to the council's decision the Planning and Environment Act 1987 and that the and the community feeling in the area. I made it determination of the appeal may have a substantial clear to him that I fully supported the decision of the effect on the achievement of these planning objectives. council, which was made with enormous input from the local community. I advised the minister that the Accordingly, under section 41(1)(a) of the Planning council had received approximately 400 objections to Appeal Act 1980 I direct you to refer the appeal to the the development and that the main thrust of those Governor in Council for determination. objections related to public health and the environmental impact of the proposal. I also warned The minister is saying that no longer can the people him about the strength of feeling in the community who objected to this outrageous development PLANNING AND ENVIRONM ENT (PLANNING SCHEM ES) BILL

1726 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 proposal have their day in court to voice their for important planning arrangements. Over the concerns before the independent tribunal, the AAT. years some sound and some unsound decisions have The minister has now decided to call the project in been made in the planning arena. The principal and will make the decision. objectives of the bill are to reform the structures of the planning schemes, to provide for the preparation The ACIlNG SPEAKER (Mr Cunningham) - of municipal strategic statements, to provide for the Order! The honourable member for Niddrie will making of Victoria Planning Provisions and to now explain how that relates to the bill. provide a coordinated procedure for the issue of planning permits with the approval of related Mr HULLS - It relates to the bill because this bill amendments to planning schemes. gives the minister even more power over planning. That concerns the opposition and it should concern In recent times we have seen the results of a range of Victorians, particularly the people of my electorate, planning decisions in Viccode 1, Viccode 2 and now because the minister has already decided to use his the design guide for residential living in Melbourne. wide-ranging powers when making decisions about We have also seen the results of planning decisions the Niddrie quarry site. of the past 140 years or so. For example, in the state electoral district of Sandringham something like The people of my electorate want to know why he 76 per cent of the area is comprised of detached has decided to call in this project. What residential developments with fine areas of leafy conversations has he had with either the developer glades. Contrast that with the inner city areas of and/ or people associated with the developer? More St Kilda and Fitzroy where only some 13 or 16 per importantly, why would he be attempting to cent of the area is occupied by broadscale detached overturn the wishes of the people living in the residential development. So, there are great contrasts electorate of Niddrie? I do not want to pre-empt any in metropolitan Melbourne which show the varying decision of the minister on this matter, but in the degrees and densities of development. past he has called in proposals for only one reason. Robert Russell was one of the first surveyors to map I urge the minister not to overturn the wishes of the out the city of Melbourne in the early days of the people of Niddrie. To do so would be an affront to colony. It is sometimes said that Robert Russell those people and to the people of the western developed the blueprint for the city and that Robert suburbs generally. More importantly, it would be an Hoddle subsequently took it over. Russell was also affront to all Victorians, no matter where they live, an artist of some distinction in the early days of the who should be able to express grave concerns about Port Phillip colony and executed some fine sketches proposed developments that may affect them, of nights Falls and other places around the city. The particularly one as obnoxious as the proposal to fill heritage left to us by people such as Robert Russell the Niddrie quarry with contaminated soil. It will and Robert Hoddle contributes to metropolitan have an adverse impact on the health of the local Melbourne's being one of the best places in the people and will result in adverse environmental world to live. effects. The residential amenities are the result of visionary If the minister is allowed to overturn the wishes of planning by many people. When a range of the people in this instance Victorians should be decisions were made some time ago to increase the warned, because they may be next. It is not just a density of development in metropolitan Melbourne, Niddrie issue; it has far wider consequences. In this Wendy Morris, who had a senior role within the instance it would be totally inappropriate for the then Ministry of Planning, took the time to advise a minister to overturn the wishes of the people of number of members of Parliament on the planning Niddrie and I urge him not to do so. I urge him to considerations. She contrasted the density of adhere to the council decision not to grant a permit development of Melbourne as a capital city with on this matter. As I said, the opposition has grave New York, London and Paris. The number of people concerns about this bill. I support the reasoned per square kilometre in Melbourne was lower than amendment moved by the shadow minister. any of those cities. Many people may argue that one of the factors that contributes to the quality of life in Mr THOMPSON (Sandringham) - This Melbourne is sound planning decisions over many legislation represents a constructive contribution to years. the development of planning and the environment in Victoria. Members should be aware of the need PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1727

Another by-product of good planning is the of Technology, the concerns people held at the development of parks and gardens within the state. I commencement of a development were not am pleased to report that the commissioners of the necessarily realised at the completion of the project. City of Bayside have increased the aggregate In the example at Black Rock a reasonably sound amount of public open space and parkland. The development has resulted from the planning Anzac Hostel was acquired from the federal process, and three two-storey townhouses have been government for the princely sum of a dollar or constructed on the land. thereabouts and it is now being converted into a school site. Star of the Sea Convent has taken it over It remains a question of considerable interest to my as a specialised campus for its students. The gardens constituents within the Sandringham electorate as to will be maintained in the style of the latter part of what represents the appropriate balance between last century. enabling the development of accommodation options for which there is a high market demand An area of land known as Merindah Park is located and preserving existing streetscapes and the existing within Sandringham. That land was used originally levels of vegetation to fulfil the aspirations of those as a sand quarry. After some time the owners of the people who moved to the area many years ago. land did not attend to their responsibilities and the land was acquired by the City of Sandringham Another problem relates to the juxtaposition of under an adverse possession claim. For a time the different planning zones. One example is where land was used as a local tip onto which building light industrial zones are juxtaposed against materials and other refuse were deposited. It had residential zones. I give the example of a furniture been zoned for residential development under a manufacturer located some years ago on Glenhuntly 1960s planning scheme by the City of Sandringham. Road, Caulfield, with a high volume of production Residents in adjoining areas had an interest in it through his workshop. Unfortunately when the being preserved as public open space. On the land to wind blew from a northerly direction the plumes the east of that site was the former Dunlop factory. that emanated from his spray paint booths were Because the factory produced batteries, a fair degree dispersed over the adjoining properties to the south. of pollution emanated from the furnaces and many The matter caused considerable consternation, particles and polluting materials were deposited on especially for those residents occupying their the adjoining land. premises between 7.30 a.m. and 4.00 p.m. They held the view that the vapours were, to a reasonably Interest was expressed in the northern end of the significant degree, injurious to their health. land being preserved as public open space in perpetuity. The commissioners had a difficult job in Expenses were incurred as a result of the case being trying to determine what would be in the best contested before the Administrative Appeals long-term interests of the local community. They Tribunal. Expert evidence was given by Or Terry had a responsibility to meet financial objectives as Bellair, who has appeared as an expert witness for well as ensuring adequate open space. Effectively a many major corporations throughout Australia. He compromise arrangement was reached and it was was consulted to provide sound, constructive and decided that part of the land would be subdivided expert guidance to the local residents so they could and the other part would be preserved as public prepare the best case possible. At the end of the day open space. The Minister for Planning and Local the Administrative Appeals Tribunal ordered that Government has approved the acquisition of land by the flue stacks on the roof of the property be the Urban Land Authority, which I believe is in the relocated and that an assurance be given that the process of developing the land. burners used to dispel the vapours did so to an adequate degree to ensure they did not proceed into I referred to Wendy Morris who had worked with the atmosphere without being well cleansed. the then Department of Planning. She gave sage advice to a group of constituents who were There is currently some controversy in the City of concerned about a multiunit development at Black Bayside relating to the balance between vegetation Rock. The development involved the loss of existing along the foreshore and the rights and tree canopies and vegetation from a block resulting responsibilities of citizens within the general area. in loss of amenity in the neighbourhood. There were The Brighton Beach railway station has registered also concerns about parking and an increase in status under the Historic Buildings Council as a site traffic movement. Wendy Morris advised that, as a worthy of preservation. It is an excellent site which result of studies conducted at the Footscray Institute reflects the history of the local area and the time of PLANNING AND ENVIRONM ENT (PLANNING SCHEM ES) BILL

1728 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 the land boom. It may also be part of the history of development of the state in a way that will also be some of the early political leaders of the day as they underpinned by sound planning principles. sought to promote the location of railway lines. As the lines proceeded into the country, so, too, did the In the past the Business Council of Australia has subdivision of land in surrounding areas. nominated the difficulties the community confronts Nevertheless, there is the question of what with a low level of productivity, a high level of debt, represents an appropriate juxtaposition with regard low savings and a degree of bureaucratic red tape to the planning of the foreshore area, what levels of which ultimately results in delays in the process. development are appropriate along the foreshore Many members would have builders in their and what rights the land and property owners who electorates who are very keen to get on with live across the road from the foreshore have to building projects. If they are delayed by decisions preserve their views. being made at council level it can make the difference between projects they wish to embark Other issues of concern within the area also relate to upon being financially viable or running at a loss. A the use of advertising signs along the foreshore. local builder in my electorate often tells me he could There are business promotion signs and there are acquire the land and build a house more quickly billboards and hoardings. A very large sign has been than the time it takes to actually obtain the planning constructed near the water sports centre past permit from council. As a consequence of decisions Keysborough. Some people regard that structure already made, there is the ability for the building and the advertising on it as incompatible with the permit approval process to be expedited so that rural environment while others perhaps regard it as delays will not impact on the activities of private being a break in the landscape. citizens who are going about their general work.

Along the Nepean Highway between Moorabbin It can be seen that the provisions in the bill, which and Highett the location of the many advertising are designed to address the slow, complex and and hoarding signs are determined by the planning unresponsive system the government has inherited, schemes. The Nepean Highway and South Road have already been reinvigorated and will continue to intersection is also the junction of the boundaries of be reinvigorated by a number of measures through the cities of Bayside, Kingston and Glen Eira. Those the Planning and Environment (Planning Schemes) three municipal districts have the responsibility of Bill. I commend the bill to the house. developing a coordinated approach to the urban amenity, the urban environment and the sound Ms KOSKY (Altona) - I am sure all honourable planning of those areas. members can point to good and bad planning decisions that have been made in their electorates. The Victoria Planning Provisions under the Planning However, it is interesting to note some of the reasons and Environment Act are fundamentally designed to that have been given by the government to justify assist in providing a consistent and coordinated the Planning and Environment (Planning Schemes) framework for planning schemes in Victoria, Bill: the cutting of red tape, economic interests, whereby the minister may prepare and approve financial viability, builders' interests and expediting standard planning provisions. the planning permit process. Those are the reasons that have been given, rather than the planning Under the old planning process in Melbourne there processes, which are concerned with a range of local have been a diverse number of planning schemes. needs and which look after all those who live and As a consequence of that diversity it has been a work within a community. It is important that it be complex process for builders, planners and understood that often these are complex processes developers to work out the most suitable and that a whole range of interests need to be arrangements, and the duplication and overlap have considered. There must be a proper transparent been time consuming and expensive. Accordingly, process in which all can participate before a decision any endeavour to try to streamline and rationalise is reached that is responsive to the needs of all or the planning process would be of enormous most of the people who live or work within a economic benefit to the state of Victoria. community. It is for that reason that I support the reasoned amendment of the honourable member for I commend the minister as he has shown a Richmond. preparedness to cut through the red tape and make decisions which will assist the economic In the past planning schemes in Victoria have successfully accommodated a combination of PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1729 statewide, regional and local needs. They have that concern but have had little ability to participate responded to local needs, to local knowledge and to in discussion and debate on this bill. The role of local local solutions where people live, work and spend government will be reduced to providing vision recreational time. The statewide needs were statements. Councils will not have control over incorporated but they did not dominate or overtake planning in their municipalities. The minister will local provisions. The scheme was understood by have the right to intervene whenever he or she residents. They could participate in the process at chooses - and it will be ad hoc. The system of ad the local government level and, if it went further, to hoc amendments by the minister will be formalised the appeals panel. The process was transparent. with the minister given the powers to grant, amend People understood the process of providing and reject permits. planning permits; they understood how they could participate in it; and they also understood the Clause 5 will insert new section 4C which refers to rationale for providing objections. The process was approval of amendments. It says that the minister fair, in that all could participate in it and the may, subject to any conditions the minister wishes to planning grounds on which they could object were impose, approve an amendment or part of an clear. amendment to the Victoria Planning Provisions. No background has been provided on how that will There were also rights of appeal, so if the local occur. There is no mandate for such an assumption council made a decision that concerned members of of power and the process lacks consultation. Local the local community they could take it to the government is being treated with disdain. Local Administrative Appeals Tribunal to have their government must to be consulted and the MAV concerns listened to and dealt with. Even if at the needs to be involved in the process. end of the day those who had participated in the appeal process did not agree with the final decision, Another problem the bill creates is related to the fact they generally respected the procedures which that local government must be elected. The bill allowed them to participate. provides for the development of municipal strategic statements, and in many municipalities they will be The minister had the ability to intervene in the developed by commissioners. Elected councillors interests of the state but intervention was generally will then have to put up with the strategic policy driven and relatively rare. There were clear statements prepared by commissioners, who are not limits to the minister's power and in general there elected or accountable. They are responsible to the was respect for the local government directions. I minister, not the local communities on whose behalf must admit that a problem with previous planning they will make the statements. schemes was that they did not encourage strategic planning for future land use - something that is The government's laissez-faire approach to planning certainly needed in my electorate. puts profits before all other considerations. That has been clear in some of the comments that have been 'This legislation will overtake all that is good within made on the other side of the house. Members on the current system, which will be replaced with this side are not concerned about the government increased centralised power. It will be top-down trying to introduce consistency, giving planning approach. Statewide needs will override local needs. schemes a strategy planning focus and making There will be reduced rights of appeal and no plarming schemes more efficient. However, we do transparency in the scheme. Uniform planning not wish to support conformity at the risk of local provisions will be imposed on all communities councils losing the ability to maintain the differences regardless of local characteristics. The government's that should be reflected in different planing schemes view will dominate and the minister's view will across the state. As we know, municipalities across dominate. There is no ability to include in the the state are different. planning schemes specific provisions that are not in the Victoria Planning Provisions. The intentions of the bill include reducing prohibitions on uses to a minimum and preventing Residential amenity and environmental protection the channelling of various developments to suitable will be under threat as a result of increased sites to minimise their effects on residents. Although discretionary uses and fewer prohibited zones. The there is nothing inherently wrong with mixed-use minister will control the planning powers of zones if they are well integrated, there is concern municipalities. That is a major concern for local about that being done without the interests of the government. Municipalities have certainly expressed local community being uppermost. PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1730 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

My electorate of Altona includes several areas of future of the orchid so that it could be protected. He national and international significance. Werribee called it in because, as we know, economic interests South has market gardens that contribute an are put well before environmental and conservation enormous amount to both the national and interests in this state. That is clear evidence of the international economies. How the area is developed little regard the Minister for Planning and Local is extremely important. I know there are some Government has for local community views. Local proposals to reduce the size of the allotments in the government wished to have that issue discussed Werribee South area. That obviously needs to be widely in the community to find a solution that taken into account when considering issues of could both accommodate the rail freight centre and national and international signlficance. However, conserve the golden moths orchid. But obviously the City of Wyndham is very clear about the that will not happen now. responsibilities. It is extremely important that the council is involved in the process and that it is not a The Minister for Planning and Local Government decision coming down from the minister. defeated the Minister for Conservation and Land Management on the issue. Earlier in the year the Laverton North is another important area in Minister for Conservation and Land Management Victoria. It has an industrial area zoned for offensive expressed her concerns about the golden moths industry, which many municipalities would not orchid and gave the house a song and dance about want to have located within their boundaries. It is it, but she has been very quiet ever since. The local most important that the area is developed community is concerned about the future of the sensitively and carefully, with much thought being orchid. given to the different pmposes for which it may be used and the activities that will be located alongside That example makes very clear the reason why we them. Altona has suffered the results of bad do not want the minister's powers to be increased, as plaruting decisions made in the past, with residential the bill will allow. The minister is not concerned areas being far too close to industrial areas. about the wishes of local communities. When he decides that economic interests are apparent in any Mr Perton interjected. planning application, they come first. It is not even necessary that the economic interests be uppermost; Ms KOSKY - Those decisions were made before they just have to be evident. there was a clear planning scheme, so there wasn't a clear focus for planning within the municipality. Mr Maclellan - Have you got an example? Local government will work hand in hand with the state government, but it does not want to have Ms KOSKY - I have just provided an example, decisions imposed on it from ministerial level. The which the minister would have heard if he were honourable member for Niddrie gave a clear listening. Local government knows best what is indication of the fact that the minister imposes his needed in local communities and it can work in will on local communities. conjunction with state government. It is extremely important that the MAV - - The rare golden moths orchid grows in an area in my electorate that is proposed to be used as a rail Mr Perton interjected. freight centre. The Minister for Planning and Local Government called in the proposal and decided that Ms KOSKY - I am sure the honourable member the rail freight centre would go ahead. The Minister is not casting aspersions on the MAV or local for Conservation and Land Management was not government. I sincerely hope he works closely with able properly to enact the Flora and Fauna local government in his area. Guarantee Act; she failed to meet her responsibility. As a result, the golden moths orchid, which, as I Mr Perton - I do indeed. said, is rare, probably has no future, not only in Altona but probably Victoria and Australia. Ms KOSKY - The honourable member for Doncaster is clearly casting aspersions on local The proposal should have been dealt with through a government in his area. That is extremely proper process of consultation at local and state concerning for his constituents as he clearly does not leveL But the Minister for Planning and Local value their opinions. I am sorry the constituents of Government decided it was not important for the Doncaster do not have a local member who local community or the state to have a say on the represents their views in this house. Ultimately the PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1731 bill is designed to give all power to the government remember some horrific decisions made under the and to allow it to grant permits to mates. former government, including the calling in of appeals by the then responSible ministers, Torn Mr Perton interjected. Roper and Jim Kennan.

Ms KOSKY - If the honourable member for I represented the Shire of Diamond Valley in an Doncaster had listened he would have heard me say appeal process concerning a local refuse disposal tha t the existing planning scheme allows for the site. Of the 55 000 residents only about 100 lodged participation of constituents in planning their objections. Many were not affected directly because municipalities. They do that via the local they did not live near the site. The minister decided government process and via the Administrative to call in the appeal ,but that had a detrimental effect Appeals Tribunal process. The bill will put the on the community. The shire spent hundreds of minister's views first and will allow him to override thousands of dollars preparing the application. It local government and local community decisions. met all the guidelines and criteria set down under For that reason I support the reasoned amendment. the then planning provisions, taking into account effluent disposal and environmental considerations. Mr PHILLIPS (Eltham) - I support the bill, We were looking at something that would suit the which goes a long way towards tidying up a community and adjoining municipalities as well. cumbersome act. Over the years planners have had to sort through 67 000 pages of planning schemes to Over the years the Eltham electorate has been understand what is going on. The opposition known for its stance on environmental issues. One suggests the planning scheme should not be particular application involved the filling of a gully amended. That would be like living in noddy land! rather than the filling of a quarry. The honourable The bill amends three aspects of the act. I refer to the member for Altona spoke specifically about the minister's second-reading speech, which says: minister's powers over quarry fills. In those days I supported the application based on what I had At the state level, a state planning policy framework is heard about the importance of refuse disposal being prepared to help guide the preparation of local throughout the world. I was prepared to bite the planning policy and guide planning decision making at bullet and support the filling of the gully from time all levels. to time because at the end of the day I believed that in the event that effluent leaked from the gully, it Often we lose sight of the authority to whom local could be treated because it could be seen. In many government is responsible and the umbrella under cases, retarding basins would catch the waste, which which it operates. Local government comes under would then be pumped back into the gully. That the authority of the state minister. cannot be done with landfill quarries. Many people supported the refuse filling of quarries on the basis An honourable member interjected. of it being out of sight, out of mind. Now we know that that causes many problems. Mr PHILLIPS - Voters elect local councils to administer and look after their local interests. The The honourable member for Altona criticised the government is proud of its record in delegating role played by the commissioners in the making of planning issues to local government. I spent 14 years strategic statements. The overwhelming majority of as an Eltharn councillor. My perception of the commissioners were appointed by the majority of local councillors is that when they are democratically elected government in 1994. Last faced with hard decisions, often those decisions are March the community had the opportunity to not made. Sometimes the decisions local councils express its concern not only about the way the should make are handed over to the AA T - and government has handled the restructuring of local sometimes, the minister in his wisdom calls in government but about the appointtnentof appeals. commissioners and the way they have controlled their municipalities. The honourable member for Niddrie talked about the minister's powers. Somebody who did not know The Eltham electorate has experienced problems about the ability to call in local issues that might similar to those others have had from time to time. have state ramifications would think it was The opposition criticises the appointtnent of something new and that the Minister for Planning commissioners; yet, the Cain-Kimer governments and Local Government had invented it. I can appointed commissioners after sacking the PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1732 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

Richmond, Keilor and Melton councils. I stand to be the best interests of the local area. That is what corrected, but I believe it was six and a half years planning is all about. before the Cain and then Kirner governments allowed democratically elected councillors to regain The bill introduces the three major components control at Melton, Keilor and Richmond. listed in the minister's second-reading speech. The first component concerns the state planning policy Local government commissioners were appointed at framework. At the local level a local planning policy the end of 1994 or early 1995. An election will be framework will be prepared for each municipal held in Nillumbik in March 1997 - that is, only two district and will include a municipal strategic and a half years after they were appointed there. The statement. The honourable member for Altona opposition has suggested that only the government complained that many of the strategic framework has appointed commissioners, but that is wrong. documents will be prepared by commissioners. That Appointments to commissioner positions were made is so far from the truth it is laughable. from the ranks of serving councillors up until the amalgamations in late 1994 - and they included Obviously the honourable member does not representatives of the Labor, Liberal and National understand how local government works. Local parties. They are all aware of how local government government works by involving the community. It works, and I have no doubt about the ability of the also works by having fully qualified and paid commissioners to prepare strategic planning planning officers who prepare these documents. The processes. recommendations of the planning officers are then forwarded to the councillors - or the Sitting suspended 6.30 p.m. until 8.03 p.m. commissioners in cases where areas do not as yet have democratically elected councillors. The Mr PHILUPS - The government is trying to commissioners or councillors add their input by streamline the Planning and Environment Act to either agreeing with the recommendations or make it easier for local government and easier for amending them. The opposition suggested that the consumer to understand exactly what is going commissioners who have been appointed by this on with planning. We are trying to create government have some secret agenda. That is consistency in the metropolitan planning scheme so nonsense. that people who live in residential zones know they can do similar things, no matter whether they are in The second component that is being introduced by Eltham, Berwick, Brunswick, Coburg or wherever the bill is the use of consistent planning tools in else. planning schemes. There is no justification for retaining difficult and complex provisions in each The claim that the bill takes away local scheme covering the same issue. What does that government's opportunity to include local really mean? It means that it is fair and reasonable to considerations is absolute nonsense. Members of the presume that the conditions for a service station in opposition have said the minister is trying to reduce an industrial zone - whether it is in Altona or in the ability of local government to consider local Eltham - should be similar in other municipalities. conditions and overlays that may include tree cover and environmental conditions. That is also absolute The honourable member for Altona also said this nonsense. If members of the opposition read the bill legislation will increase discretionary uses within they will see that it is trying to create some certainty certain zones. Again, what does that mean? It means and some consistency and simplify planning. the bill will give councillors the opportunity to consider whether a proposed use is appropriate for Planning is really all about commonsense outcomes. that area or zone. Any honourable member who has been in small business or who has had to apply for planning Discretion means people will have the right to apply permits to local government would have gone for permits for particular uses. In the event that through the silly situation of not being able to councillors or commissioners approve an receive a permit with reasonable conditions within a application, a notice of intent to grant a permit will reasonable time. In many cases the applicant has to be issued. If there are objections to the granting of run off to the AAT, where it sometimes takes six the permit, which is for a discretionary use, the months to get a hearing. It is preferable to have a set community or an individual, assuming there is some of people who are prepared to make a decision in detriment to that individual, will have the right to appeal to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, the PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Th.ursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1733 independent umpire. It is a gQQd system. The certainty and confidence. This will have obviQUS provisiQns allow discretiQnary uses because SQ 'Often benefits in attracting new business to the state. it is difficult to determine a planning ZQne and whether a particular business or industry is That is what it is abQut. Politics is about creating permitted in that zone. investment and develQping business and employment growth thrQugh the private sector. We The second main change will be the use of consistent shQuld not forget that small business is the state's planning tools and schemes. For example, there will largest employer, employing many thousands of be consistent zones for particular land uses such as peQple. Without the private sector Victoria and residential, business, industrial and rural. People Australia WQuld be in serious difficulty. Business will know that a residential zone is what it says, for needs commQnsense outcomes so that it can get on residential use, with minimal restrictiQns with doing what it does best - running the business. applying - whether it is a unit develQpment, an attached house or a detached house. PeQple living I have often been approached by people wanting to within the borders of that ZQne will understand that start small businesses in industrial zones or SQme thQse uses are fair and reasonable. The same will other zone. They apprQach CQuncils seeking permits apply to business zones. There will be the and 'Often find that local government frustrates them expectatiQn that individuals or firms will 'Operate because it says permits cannot be granted for a businesses in thQse areas. variety of reasons. In many cases an applicant may wait many mQnths tQ 'Obtain the permit and often is AnQther change is the implementation 'Of consistent forced to go to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal special area controls, known as overlays. Local because someone feels a detriment will arise. I cQmmunities will have input to ensure thQse ZQnes commend the bill tQ the house. I knQW the are cQnsistent. FQr example, if an area is zoned oPPQsition supports all the PQints made in the industrial in the electorate of the honQurable minister's secQnd-reading speech. member for Ivanhoe and certain uses are permitted, it is nonsense to suggest thQse uses shQuld not be Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - I make this permitted in a similar zone in the cities of AltQna small contribution 'On behalf 'Of myself and some of and Eltham. Planning is abQut commonsense and my impQrtant constituents. The bill is 3. bit like the cQnsistency. Special area cQntrols, or overlays, can be Minister fQr Planning and Local Government: it is for heritage and flood ways, and I referred to that better on presentatiQn than substance. The bill is earlier. largely window-dressing. The minister presents the bill as legislatiQn that reduces complexity within the The bill also prQvides for cQnsistent land use planning system. HQwever, in practice complexity definitiQns and provisiQns fQr car parking, will be added to planning. The Victoria Planning advertising signs and a variety of other planning PrQvisions are the great refQrms the minister wants, matters. During my time as a local government but thQse reforms CQuld easily be achieved within representative, if we were nQt arguing about the size the existing legislation. There is only one reaSQn for of a tQilet pipe 'Or the CQ1Qur of a commercial the legislatiQn: to satisfy the nQt inconsiderable egQ development, we were arguing about the size 'Of of the minister. The minister glories in being in advertising signs. It would nQt matter whether it thespian purSuits. However, he has done nQthing fQr was fQr Red Rooster, McDQnalds or SQme other small business and planners. If the piss and wind is commercial site; in some ZQnes certain things are taken out of this legislation -- permitted and other things are not. The SPEAKER - Order! I ask the member to be The third main change is the rigorous mQnitQring temperate in his language. and review of the effectiveness of the changes tQ the planning system conducted annually by the Mr THW AITES - That is a phrase that is used - Department of Infrastructure. Improvements, as required, will be regularly carried out. There will be The SPEAKER - Order! It is a colloquial phrase two key benefits 'Of these changes. The first is that and one best avoided. the schemes will have a much stronger strategic focus and any controls 'Over the use of development Mr THW AITES - This minister talks repeatedly land will be SQundly based and linked tQ intended about reducing red tape and costs. HQwever, the policy 'Outcomes. The secQnd is that schemes will be result 'Of this legislatiQn will be that local easier to use and understand and will create greater gQvernment will be asked tQ rewrite all of its PLANNING AND ENVIRONM ENT (PLANNING SCHEM ES) BILL

1734 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 planning schemes. The cost of that will be overlay controls are a central part of this legislation. considerable. It will be a legal nightmare, but it will Far from reducing the number of zones in the areas be lovely for the legal profession - the lawyers, the of Melbourne, the surrounding districts and rural planners and everyone else. Victoria, there will be more zones because of these overlay controls. The minister boasts about section 85 and pretends to be Mr Tough Man. However, when he gets the call Mr Mac1ellan - Why? from the residents of Monomeath A venue or anywhere else he rolls over and they tickle his Mr THWAITES - I will give the minister an tummy. That is exactly what happened: they tickled example. The seat of Cranbourne has a residential his tummy. He pretended to be Mr Tough Man urban zone. Clause 123 of the Cranbourne planning about Viccode 2. However, as soon as there was a bit scheme says that land in that zone is to be zoned of pressure from the Liberal Party blue-rinse set, he residential. A developer would think that is sensible; rolled over. Obviously he likes rolling over to he could do a residential development in the area. Mr Stan Wallace. I do not know Mr Stan Wallace; Unfortunately, under this whiz-bang system there is however, this minister has a predilection for rolling likely to be an overlay, as in Cranbourne, with clause over and having his tummy tickled. That is one of 136. Under that clause no developer can subdivide the great ironies, because when one talks to the an area of less than 1 hectare. The result of that will professionals in the planning field they do not give be - and this will be what is encouraged by the this minister an A-plus. They say he has made things system and this is what the planners will tell you - more difficult. that instead of finding all the rulings that apply to a particular development in one place - that is, the I compliment the honourable member for Eltham on zoning - he will have to go to the zoning and then his speech because I agree with him that planning is to myriad overlay controls; that will make the about commonsense and consistency. However, the system more complex, not more simple. other c-word that he did not use was certainty. Unfortunately, the minister fails on all of those Mr Cooper - Simpler. c-words because there is not much commonsense, there is no consistency and there is certainly no Mr TIIWAITES - I accept the grammatical certainty. correction by the member for Mornington; I appreciate that sort of assistance. At least I passed There is only one way that one can get a planning my matriculation. I ask the members on the back decision made in this state and that is by going in bench to correct the minister, because the minister is through the back door of the minister's office and under the misapprehension that by suddenly tickling his tummy. That is the type of minister he is reducing the number of zones he will reduce and that is what the developers say about him. I am complexity. He will not do that if at the same time not talking about the councils and the other parties he increases the number of overlays so that the that the minister loves to pretend he is standing up developers will have to look at not just the rule for to. The developers are not greatly impressed with the zone but also the rule for the overlay that the this minister. minister promotes in the legislation.

An honourable member - Some are. This is classical thespian legislation. It is all up there in lights with lots of make-up. However, when one Mr THWAITES - Some are; the few who have peels away the make-up one sees that the legislation tickled his tummy are. However, a lot of other will make things more complex for the developer people say they would rather see a consistent rule whom this minister purports to support. applied to all developers who have proposals. The minister will not do that. It is ridiculous to have zones that are called residential in some outer suburban areas when 1bis legislation is a classic example of the thespian overlay controls will make those areas attributes of the minister. He pretends, and I admit non-residential. That will affect the electorate of the he does it well. He pretends that he has created this member for Monbulk. I speak from experience; I new simple system. However, the system will be have practised in the planning area. much more complex than the one we had before. Once again, I compliment the member for Eltham Mr Maclellan - And made a lot of money. because he talked about the overlay controls. The PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1735

Mr THWAITES - I did make a lot of money in I went past that development only a few weeks ago the planning area under the Labor government and I and was somewhat surprised to see that nothing has would make even more under this government. lbis happened. The great push to ram the amendment legislation will be an absolute goldmine for lawyers through and to abandon the planning process was because it will lead to a conflict between the overlay supposed to be because of the developer's need to and the zoning, which will mean lawyers will spend complete the development quickly. That has not all their days in court arguing about whether it is the happened, yet the minister was prepared to abandon appropriate zone or the appropriate overlay. 1bis proper planning processes to help out the developer. legislation will not achieve the minister's purpose. It will mean lawyers will make more money, not less. Another cause of great concern in the electorate of It will mean planning consultants and others will Albert Park is St Kilda Road. Previously a 60-metre confuse the issue because the minister is making it height limit applied to buildings along that road. more complex, not simpler. However, the minister decided, presumably on a whim - or he got a visit via the back door or The minister has claimed he will reduce legal costs someone tickled his tummy - to throw out the as a result of this legislation. He has also claimed he 6O-metre height limit and allow a 146-metre building will make the system more efficient. Councils will right opposite the Shrine of Remembrance. now have to spend $100 000 or $200 000 each to rewrite their planning schemes. I do not think the Mr Hamilton - Why didn't he make it ratepayers want to spend their money on that. The 150 metres? minister boasts about reducing rates. However, he is forcing councils to reduce their health services and Mr THWAITES - His tummy wasn't tickled child-care services and to put the money into hard enough or long enough. St Kilda Road is one of rewriting planning schemes. I cannot think of the great boulevard.s of Melbourne. Unfortunately, anything more wasteful. Yet all the councils in the minister is disputing that. He is sitting here Victoria will now be asked to rewrite the local saying he would rather have the developer come in sections of their planning schemes - not to make the back door, tickle his tummy and get a 147-metre the system more efficient, but to satisfy the ego of building in a 60-metre height zone. the minister. I was talking to my wife, Melanie, about this very Under clause 20(5) councils - not the department issue, and she said there is one thing we should and not the minister - will be responsible for all have: a coalition of residents against ministerial those costs. When all the members go back to their planning. That was the genesis of one of Victoria's municipalities they will say, 'Out of your rates you finest institutions known as CRAMP. For the last will have to find enough money to rewrite the whole two or three years CRAMP has advocated strongly planning scheme for your area' - not to achieve in the community for consistency and commonsense anything, but simply to satisfy the ego of the in planning instead of the tickle-the-tummmy school minister so that he feels he is somehow creating a of planning. On this issue I must defer to my wife, reform. It is a complete waste of money. The who has had a lot more experience in the planning minister has achieved a reputation in planning of area than I have. I just wish the minister would start being prepared to ignore the rule book and the listening to my wife as much as I do! factors about which the honourable member for Eltham spoke, such as consistency. Instead, he Ms BURKE (Prahran) - I will not be talking promotes special deals. about tickles or tummies or that sort of rubbish; I will talk about the importance of this planning I have some key examples, such as the Diplomat scheme to Victoria. Victoria's architecture is world Hotel, in the electorate I represent. The minister renowned. An architecture conference is being held clam.s the reason for interfering with the planning here next March, and I notice it was advertised in process was because of all the council red tape and the LA Times last week. People were asked to come the delays. In that case the minister abandoned to see the wonderful architecture of Victoria. It was proper planning processes and advised the talking not only about Melbourne, but about comnunity that he would give the developer a Ballarat, Bendigo and other areas, and that is what special planning amendment on the basis of council the minister is concerned about with this bill- the dela)"s. That was back in 1994. planning of Victoria. PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1736 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

Let us talk more about facts and less about rhetoric. in the world would there be a need for a lot of The first issue is the existing system. It is too slow permits for the one zone? Why should it be and complicated. It has too much discretion which necessary to go through the plaruting process just to allows many councils to play favourites with find out that only one planning permit is needed plaruting permits. It also has too much inconsistency within that zone. The bill presents a more strategic and clearly needs some sort of coordination and a and realistic way of doing business. clear plaruting vision, not only for the local area but also for the state. I will describe the system in simple terms for those opposite who do not understand it. The bill talks It is interesting to note that in i993 there were about land use zones, but the character of particular 206 plaruting schemes. We are now heading areas will also be taken into account. In my towards 78. In addition we had 26 272 pages municipality there are some areas that are clearly referring to plaruting schemes; that will be greatly historic, and that overlay has never been reduced. We had 2871 zones and that will be incorporated into the plaruting scheme. Under the reduced to 23 zones and 15 to 20 overlays. By new system more emphasis will be placed on the overlays we mean the needs, the changes and the historic nature of many of the tree preservations in flavour of a municipality which must be attended to. the municipalities. They include heritage, tree preservation, flooding or whatever other problem might arise in a This whole process will be ready well before municipality. Only some 36 per cent of schemes that 15 March 1997, when 55 elected councils will be have been in the process so far have had a policy returned. The new process will continue to grow and format. Now 100 per cent of those schemes will have will be improved and enhanced by the newly elected a policy format. An average of 974 amendments a councils. The councils will be new, even if they year are passed, and I imagine the number will be contain former councillors, and not all of them will greatly reduced. Who, possibly, can look at more have a good knowledge of their new municipalities. than 900 amendments a year in a scheme that is That is why this is the most appropriate time to supposed to be working? bring in a new plaruting scheme, because the new teams will bring with them a new understanding of I refer the house to the consultation process the importance of strategic land use in Victoria. associated with the planning scheme. For three and a half years we have been talking about this planning It is all very well to talk about one or two developers permit and we are finally doing something about it. who might have been treated differently or one or For the benefit of the honourable member for Albert two developments that some people perceive as Park, Port Phillip was the pilot council for this having enjoyed special conditions, but the plaruting scheme - and there was not one single complaint. of any area involves a consideration of day-to-day land use issues, whether that involves family homes Port Phillip was one of five councils used as part of a or sites for businesses or industry or whatever. The pilot program to see whether the scheme would 55 new councils will have a much better grounding work at the local leveL Rural municipalities such as in the importance of plaruting for their local the Alpine and Momington Peninsula shires and the communities, not only for residential living but for Ballarat council were also involved and not one the economic development of their municipalities. complaint was made. It worked successfully in Port Phillip. The member for Albert Park talked about the new councils saying that they will not know their areas Another interesting point about the change, which and will throw planning schemes out. Let's be has great advantages, is that if the transition realistic about this. presents any problems a panel will help overcome them. One panel will serve the 78 councils. There A Government Member - He was rambling. will not be 78 panels, which the previous government would have opted for! The members of Ms BURKE - I am afraid he was. Many of the the panel will have an understanding of the new boundaries overlap with planning zones, and problems the municipalities are facing and how they that will need to be addressed. The new format puts need to be dealt with. a much stronger emphasis on policy and strategy, and that is important. It is an integrated policy If in its wisdom a council decides that a which gives local authorities more control and medium-density housing zone is appropriate, why which offers more certainty and more consistency. PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1737

That flexibility will enable people to include the the number of call-ins of appeals. The Minister for flavour of their local streetscapes or building styles Planning and Local Government has made more in the scheme. The average person will find the specific site amendments than any other planning scheme simpler and easier to follow. minister. Any town planner looking at the Victorian system would doubt that we have a proper planning The key point of the bill is its emphasis on policy system. We have a facilitation system to assist those and strategy, which has been lost in the past. The bill developers who are prepared to tickle the tummy of will lead to a much better Victorian planning the minister to get their permits and make their scheme. It will create a new format and result in money. That is not a proper planning system. A significant savings. There has been a great deal of proper system demands consistency, clarity, talk about savings, but if you have ever had to build commonsense and due process. It demands that the a house or start a new business - or even build an system works in the interests of the people, the aged care hostel like I am - you realise that amenity of the region, the health of the environment planning schemes can cost an enormous amount of and the promotion of economic development. money. The system in this state is clearly one sided, This is an important planning scheme. We have not specifically because of the interventionist style of the heard a lot of criticism from the other side, but their minister, which is unprecedented. The planning act arguments have been poor because they are not gives the minister the ability to call in appeals, and strong on planning issues as such. We have heard a he has made extraordinary use of those powers. The great deal of rhetoric about planning permits, but I bill gives the minister more power to prejudge am talking about a planning scheme for the whole of decisions. He may not have to intervene in as many Victoria. What is appropriate for the Alpine Shire cases as he has to date, but he will have a greater say Council is not necessarily appropriate for the in what happens and in whose interest Mornington Peninsula Shire Council or the City of developments proceed. Melbourne. The bill covers that diversity. It will also guide the quality of planning decisions and allow Again, I refer to those who are prepared to tickle the councillors to adopt a fairer and more objective tummy, to go in and ask for favours. They are the attitude to planning. ones who have done well out of four years of planning under this government. The minister says, The new format will facilitate more appropriate 'My door is open for business'. What does that development, and the overlay prOvisions will have actually mean? It means fast-tracking, forgetting an impact on that. It is good to talk about proper processes and forgetting about the people development, but it must be appropriate and residential amenities. It means that local development. The scheme will enhance the longer character is ignored. All those things will be term social, economic and, more importantly, the reinforced by the bill. In one sense the system is environmental impact of planning, not only on the logical: there should be more strategic planning, visual amenity but on the ecology of a region, which because at present the state has none. Anyone who has not been talked about by the other side. The has read 'Living Suburb', which is supposedly a scheme will be clearer and easier to use and, most framework for planning in metropolitan Melbourne, importantly, it will be consistent across the state. will know that no such planning framework exists. It is a series of motherhood statements - simplistic, I welcome this bill. I welcome the fact that the new unresearched, unclear statements about our councils will use it, and I will welcome the changing metropolis. There is no clear research and no clear shape of the state in the years to come based on the guidelines. It is banal. consistent and clearly designed policies of the government, which will ensure Victoria continues to The bill is a bunch of parenthood. statements. It is an be one of the special architectural states in the extraordinary weakness that we have no framework country. for metropolitan planning. We are now asking local councils to adopt their own local strategic outlook. Mr CARLI (Coburg) - The opposition has What is the time frame? It is completely unrealistic. presented some strong arguments to demonstrate For the majority of councils this local strategic the lack of credibility in the state's planning system. framework has to be prepared even before June The system is in crisis because for four years we 1997, before councillors are elected. It is an have had a tickle-my-tummy minister who has extraordinary situation. Local government is being consistently made ad hoc decisions and increased asked to do a substantial amount of work without PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1738 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 any statewide metropolitan vision or framework and things easy for the mates and the developers it without the ability to research the demographic and favours. The planning zones that are set up are not economic trends or consider what options are under actual review, but they can be changed by the available for the various zones. All this will be done minister. The bill provides that they can be amended at the local level and at enormous cost to local or rejected by the minister; he can do whatever he government. There will be little consultation in a likes with them. Again, it is centralising power. tight time frame without the councils, let alone the local community, taking part. It will be done in an While in the current act we have the call-in powers ad hoc way, and why not? That has been the case for that have been abused by the minister, with the four years - four years of intervention by those Planning and Environment (Planning Schemes) Bill who are prepared to tickle the tummy of the the minister has total control over the zones. They minister. are not there for review. Strategic plans have to be reviewed at a considerable cost, but that is not so The honourable member for Richmond talks about with the VPPs. The minister has a say in how they the barbarians at the gates. The gates have been are constructed, and they may not be applicable to opened wide and the barbarians are now in the city local communities or areas. Again there is a doing what they fancy to the urban fabric and to the continuing policy of the removal of third-party most delicate environmental areas of the city. This rights. Within the VPPs there is an increase in the document and these plarming schemes do nothing to number of as-of-right uses and notifiable permits for confront the major problem of planning in Victoria buildings. It is another case where the rights that in and in the City of Melbourne. The crisis has been the past people expected to have to defend local created by this minister through an open planning amenities and the sense of community are lost. Why scheme. What are the local threats to the people? are they lost? Because that is not the sort of planning They are the threats to our amenities and our system this minister wants. He wants one that he suburbs. The suburbs are now the battleground. This considers efficient, but efficient for whom? It is not is the minister's Vietnam! Consistently over four efficient for those detrimentally affected by it. It is years, and again reinforced by this document, efficient, again, for those who make a profit. The third-party rights are being further removed. The scheme is about fast-tracking and making things planning processes have been further taken out of available for people who tickle the belly of the the hands of local communities. minister.

Lack of environmental protection is another major Any planning system has to be built on genuine issue. Metropolitan Melbourne, the coastal areas, the principles and the ability to enforce those principles Dandenong Ranges and our own architectural in the built-in environment. We cannot simply have heritage are delicate issues. They have been under planning at the level of commonsense; it has to be threat for four years and they are under threat now. based on commonsense and principles and the We have borne witness to the developments that capacity of the scheme to enforce those principles. have affected our urban and city fringe fabric. The Broadly speaking, the principles that underlie the Oandenongs and the coastline have been affected. planning scheme, the act and the thinking of the We have seen developments that have totally minister are about healthy, sustainable, growing changed the nature of those suburbs and communities - healthy physically, socially, communities. It is time this open-door policy of the environmentally and economically. barbarians was dosed, but it will not be closed by this bill. It can be closed only if we support the The balance is between the economic, the amendment moved by the honourable member for environmental and the social. We do not take the Richmond. The bill has to be completely redrafted; it system out of kilter. In the built-in environment we is futile to even think of reforming it. have a competing interest and a balance in that interest, but beyond all of that there has to be Basically the government is saying that local certainty and consistency. That is what has been government has to do a strategic plan at the local lacking for four years and nothing in the bill will level and that that will be reviewed every three rectify it. years at a considerable cost to communities. For the majority of councils in metropolitan Melbourne Mr DIXON (Dromana) - For most of the those strategic plans will be prepared without a evening we have listened to the analogy about democratically elected council. Isn't that the way the tickling the tummy of the dog, which presupposes government works? It wants to fast-track, to make that if you tickle the tummy of the dog you are going PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1739 to get what you want, but in some cases you get development. I support both planning laws that are your hand bitten off as well. I do not think that in place and those that are yet to be developed. analogy rings true in planning matters or in any matter concerning this government. The Mornington Peninsula Shire Council has been one of the pilot councils looking at new planning The honourable member for Coburg implied that regulations. I was pleased about the overall there is a total lack of environmental protection in emphasis in the regulations, and the main planning the planning regulations. The exact opposite is the point was the retention of the wonderful aspects of case! The overlay controls will protect the precious the Mornington Peninsula. Because it is a pilot environmental aspects of our municipalities, program retention of those aspects has been stressed whether they have heritage value, are beautiful as the overriding factor of importance for the coastline or bushland or are areas where endangered peninsula. We do not want our beautiful area flora or fauna is growing or living. The overlay subdivided because someone wants to make a quick control will protect the environment. buck!

Who can better identify the overlays than the local Today, the honourable member for Mornington and shire that knows the area. The shire will not make I had an erudite discussion about planning issues - those decisions sight unseen. Shire officers know the we talked about a number of issues, but planning area and they know what is important. They get issues were very much to the forefront. Planning feedback from the ratepayers and as a result the regulations must be balanced between development environmental aspects will be protected. and environment. Areas of the peninsula have traditionally been untouched, but that does not People seem to believe because a minister can call in mean they will be ruined if a development occurs. planning matters that the power will be abused. In my limited experience of a number of planning The government is developing a system that will matters, when something is called in it is usually for strike a balance between development and the a good reason. It is not a case of calling matters to protection of the environment. A case in point is the rubber stamp them. A matter is called in because the proposal for a boat harbour on an untouched piece parties have reached a stalemate and it has serious of coastline at Rosebud. Rosebud has been a popular implications not only locally but for a wider area. It camping spot for a number of years but is currently is only right that the minister should be able to call run down. Some people want it left as it is and not in a matter so that he and his department have an touched, but the vast majority are in favour of some opportunity of examining it in depth and making his sort of development. They do not want 20-storey decision based on all the evidence. buildings shoulder to shoulder along the coastline, but they are interested in some sort of development. It has been suggested there is no state framework for We will go through a thorough planning process to plaruring laws. I read the minister's second-reading achieve that. speech with interest because he said that a state planning policy framework is being prepared to The bill is about implementing a fair and open help guide the preparation of local planning policy process so that people can look at the environment and planning decisions at all levels. That type of effects statements and the planning laws and the state-level planning guide is excellent and is needed. local community and local shire can have a say. The We need overall state guidelines as well as local process will be so transparent you will be able to see guidelines and we need links between the two. for kilometres! In fact, it will be so transparent you will be able to see across the bay! People will know it Planning issues are very important in the electorate is a balanced development. I am in favour of the of Dromana. In my maiden speech on 14 May I process because it is fair. Everyone who has referred to planning issues because people who live, commented on it believes if the process is visit or holiday on the Mornington Peninsula are followed - I know it will be - the peninsula will attracted by its environment. It has beautiful open have the best possible outcome. spaces, clifftops, beaches, townships, villages and bushland. If planning were running amok we would Three major items are important not only to the not have those areas, we would have subdivisions community on the southern peninsula but also to the from one end of the peninsula to the other. wider Victorian community. One of those horrible However, tight controls are in place to control developers has illegally bulldozed half a magnificent mansion built on the c1ifftops a number of years ago PLANNING AND ENVIRONM ENT (PLANNING SCHEM ES) BILL

1740 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 and wants to subdivide the fragile clifftop property area which I know very well, the Momington into five lots. lhls is a good example of a person Peninsula, the overlays will be extremely important who believes he can run amok with the planning because of the fragile environmental areas - the laws. The local shire is going to fight the developer sand dunes and the clifftops - that require overlays and the minister has called in the matter. According where the normal planning regulations do not fit in. to the opposition, the minister will roll over, have his There are also some important heritage buildings tummy tickled and give the developer what he and sights where the overlays will be more wants! No way! The minister is looking at the matter appropriate than the local planning laws and closely, and there will be a fair outcome that the controls that are enacted. community will respect. There are consistent definitions and provisions for Mr Cameron interjected. car parking and things such as advertising. That is very important, because people who want to Mr OrxON - We don't know because we have develop Victoria need to know the laws are the same not been through the process. Another matter the wherever they go. The upshot is that a lot of time minister has called in is the site of Victoria's first will be cut out of the process. We have already seen white settlement at Point King in Sorrento. lhls is that the planning processes are not as long and also a site of great value not only to the history of drawn out as they were. Any process that is long white settlement in Victoria but also to the Koori and drawn out is expensive, so the new system will population because there is evidence of its camping be a far less expensive process. grounds and middens dating back 2000 years. The site is very important not only for the local area but The new system will result in fewer abuses. for the whole state. The family that has held the Inconsistency in a planning approach often leads to property for many years has on a number of abuses; people who get away with something in one occasions tried to subdivide it and build holiday area often think they can get away with it in another houses on it. It is now trying again and has brought area, or a precedent that is established in one area is a lot of pressure to bear in an attempt to have the site used as a good argument to change the law in subdivided. another area.

As I said, it is important not only for the white Transparent processes are very important, and we population but also for the Koori population, and have had a few very good examples of such the minister has called it in because it is so processes. The new schemes will be prepared by the important. There is no rolling over and tickling the municipal councils, and that will not cost a fortune. tummy; it is not a case of whatever the developer People seem to think that 50 per cent of ratepayers' wants, the developer gets. money will go to preparing the new planning schemes. Goodness me, any decent planner will be My third example of the excellence and practicality able to do a fair amount of good work without of the calling-in process is a certain hostelry at the having to work overtime, bring in consultants and lower end of the MOrnington Peninsula, where a take every single cent out of the ratepayers' budget. development next door will totally destroy the It will not work like that. I know our local amenity of a very popular tourist attraction to which governments will do a good job because they have many people go to enjoy a drink and a meal and the good workers. There will be public exhibition, and view of Port Phillip Bay across to the heads. A there will be hearings and opportunities for public developer has decided to use a lot of interesting comment and submissions. We cannot ask for tactics to build that monstrosity. A compromise anything more transparent than that. would have resulted in that development being to the satisfaction of all parties, but the developer has In addition, when the local planning schemes are decided not to go down that path. Because of the operating there will be vigorous monitoring of the implications of that the minister has decided to call efficiency of the new planning laws, and they will be in the application. All parties will be heard and a reviewed annually. It will not be like a five year process will be undertaken. report; the local government office will be looking at them closely and monitoring them rigorously. There The new planning tools will be consistent, and that will be an opportunity for people to say, 'This is not has been missing from our planning regulations. We working; we need to modify it', and there will be an will have consistent land use zones and special area opportunity to modify it. controls, which, as I said, are the overlays. In the PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1741

The bill caps off the streamlined new approaches to will affect the independence of the AAT. One of the plarming that have been introduced over the past processes that concerns me - unfortunately I do not four years by this coalition government and is the have the letter with me - is the cost of this to local crowning achievement of the new planning laws. I government. I recall clearly receiving a letter from commend the bill; it will be good for Victoria as a the City of Banyule - its commissioners were whole, particularly the area in which I have an appointed by this government - expressing concern interest - that is, the electorate of Dromana. to me about the local government bill. I realise that does not relate specifically to this bill, but it reflects Mr LANGDON (lvanhoe) - I am pleased to on the bureaucracy and the cost the government is follow the member for Dromana as it has recently inflicting on local government. This bill reinforces come to my attention that his brother intends to that concern time and time again. The honourable stand for council in my electorate as the member for Niddrie even mentioned that it would representative of the ward I live in. I am not sure cost $250 000 - a lot of money for local government whether he will share the honourable member for to pay, particularly when their rates are tied and Dromana's opinion of this bill. He may reflect the their services are being cut. opinion of the opposition rather than the opinion of the government. It will be interesting to find out. Mrs Maddigan - CCT.

I support the opposition's reasoned amendment, Mr LANGDON - Compulsory competitive which asks the government to refuse to read the bill tendering is another dilemma for local government a second time before further consultation occurs and has cost municipalities a great deal. A matter of with relevant groups and the community about the concern to both me and the residents of my ramifications of the bill. I do so because I believe electorate, which the government does not like me those groups want to express their concerns about mentioning time and again, is the proposed police the detrimental impact this bill will have on them. I headquarters in West Heidelberg - an election will raise some of the concerns conveyed to me. The promise the government dumped, just as it dumped bill represents a significant attack on the the former member for Ivanhoe. An application is independence of councils. As a former councillor currently before council for a hotel to be situated on with the City of Heidelberg, until the honourable that site - not a police headquarters as promised by member for Prahran changed the boundaries of the the government, but a hotel to be owned by city-- Mr Bruce Mathieson. Of course the proper process must be gone through in the council and at the AAT, An Honourable Member - You were not an but residents are concerned that no matter what they independent; you were an endorsed Labor do the minister will call it in. The proposed hotel is candidate. reported to have permission already for 80 to 8S poker machines, but that is not included in the Mr LANGDON - I was not an endorsed Labor current application. Residents are concerned that not candidate. I was elected as an individual. The only will the application for a hotel be called in, but Minister for Planning and Local Government that an application for poker machines will also be appears hell-bent on taking the authority from called in. councils and keeping it for himself. This minister constantly threatens councils that he will use his The residents do not want the hotel or poker powers to take matters into his own hands, and I machines, and I am sure the council will resolve not know from personal experience that councils are to allow the development following its consideration very concerned about this. Many people in the of the social impact study the developer has been community fear that, despite proper consultation asked to complete. However, the council and my and democratic processes, decisions made by constituents are concerned that if this bill is passed councils will be overturned by the minister, and this the minister will call in proposals time and again bill reconfirms that fear time and time again. and overrule local planning authorities. That should not be allowed to happen. I therefore support the The bill also effectively attacks the independence of opposition's reasoned amendment. the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. Residents and constituents often take some comfort from the fact Mr Cooper - You should have been here when that if a council either refuses or accepts an Tom Roper was around. application they have the right to go to the AAT. Constituents and residents fear that this minister PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1742 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996

Mr LANGDON - I have seen what this minister minister so that they can be sorted out. This bill is does, and I believe from what I have seen and been yet another step the minister is taking to rationalise told he calls in far more often than Tom Roper did. and improve the state planning system that has My constituents are also concerned about a proposal existed for the past 40 years or so, a system for a service station at the corner of Rosanna and characterised by ad hoc decision making and Station roads. For the fourth time in 30 years an programs which have gradually resulted in creeping application is before council for a petrol station, change all over the metropolitan area. It is a convenience store and car wash on that corner. The confused and contradictory system that has resulted council and the AAT would not allow it in 1967, in an enormous number of separate zones which 1969 and again in 1994, yet it is the subject of another would seem unintelligible to professionals in the council application, and again the residents oppose area. They are zones that for no reason vary from it. I believe it is to be decided some time at the end of one side of the street to another, from one next month. Residents believe the proposer of the municipality to another, even though the areas development is trying to wear them and the covered are remarkably similar. government down so that the issue will be called in, and they are concerned that this bill allows that to That system has led to a good deal of chaos and happen easily. The council is the proper authority in enormous dispute, objections and trouble. The this matter because it knows the local area. The honourable member for Albert Park waxed lyrical people believe that if their case goes before the about the AAT. He claims he has done very well. council it will be treated properly, and if that fails There is no reason for people to be deprived of they will have the AAT to fall back on. Although the representation, but if someone can design a system minister may not agree, local residents believe that that is clear, rational, logical and intelligible perhaps once the matter goes to him they will have no say at it should be cooperated and complied with. It would all. certainly leave less room for the spurious arrangements of past planning schemes. Mr Maclellan - You know that is not true. This bill marks a significant move towards a rational Mr LANGDON - This is what residents believe. and consistent system. It sets up a series of well thought out structures. The number of zones will Mr Maclellan - But you know it is not true. significantly reduce and will be consistent not only in neighbouring areas but right across the state, so Mr LANGDON - I have not experienced it at that housing zones in one part of the state will be the first hand, as residents have. The minister has made same as housing zones in other parts of the state. some good decisions, although I may not have Builders, developers and purchasers alike will agreed with them. I did not want to mention tickling understand what a housing zone means, whether it the belly, but perhaps it is one way of arriving at a is in Mildura, Maffra or Mentone. correct decision. I am not sure because I have not experienced the process and I do not know anyone The bill will also create a system of overlays to cater who has. for different circumstances, including matters such as heritage issues. An example may be an overlay in I ask the government to listen to the opposition and relation to salinity management issues that could be to allow for further consultation on the bill. I believe laid across standard zoning systems to take account that for the betterment of this state, and in particular of rural flood ways. the residents of Ivanhoe, the bill should be deferred. I support the reasoned amendment. A matter of particular interest to people in my electorate is the overlay of public acquisition. In the Mr McARTHUR (Monbulk) - It is a pleasure to past when a local or state government authority support the bill introduced by the Minister for Local sought to acquire property from a private Government and Planning. A significant number of land-holder one of the options was to seek to have government members have pointed out SUCcinctly that land rezoned for proposed public open space or the virtue of the legislation. proposed public purposes. That then triggered the compulsory acquisition, revaluation and Mr Maclellan - Now it is time to get stuck in. compensation processes. This bill will introduce a public acquisition overlay, and while it changes the Mr McARTHUR - Perhaps while I have the name and the way things are done, it will not change chance I will take up a couple of matters with the the procedures. It also will not alter people's right to PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1743 compensation or obtaining a fair price for land Opposition members have bemoaned a lack of time acquired by local or state government authorities, for consultation. In fact, the opposition moved a but it will provide a clear system for that process. reasoned amendment bemoaning exactly that. I am not quite sure how much consultation is enough People's rights will in no way be diminished and consultation for the members on the other side. Is their opportunity to gain compensation will be 1, 2 or 3 years enough or do they want 5 or 10? The retained. The Dandenong Ranges has a history of minister has been consulting about the restructuring buy-back programs for conservation purposes over of the planning system since the 1992 election. There the past 40 years. It has a long-running history of have been discussion papers, publicly advertised buying private property - sometimes voluntarily programs, the establishment of expert groups, and sometimes by compulsory acquisition - in submissions and comments, discussions in the order to return privately held blocks to public newspapers and discussions in this house. The reserves. The most notable example is the minister has been pilloried in the press. The Dandenong Ranges National Park, and the chattering classes have decried all his attempts, yet government intends to buy some properties and this is still not enough consultation for opposition return them to the national park. members.

If - I say 'if' because it is by no means certain - we I do not know how much consultation they need get to the stage where properties are compulsorily before they are satisfied. In fact, I do not think it is acquired, the rights of the owners to a fair valuation, consultation they are looking for - it is capitulation. a fair market price and fair compensation will by no They are not complaining the government has not means be diminished by this bill. It is extremely spoken to them or listened to them; they are important that people not only in my electorate but complaining because the government does not agree right across the state understand that when a local or with them. The opposition's definition of state government seeks to acquire land compulsorily consultation is: 'You and I talk, and you agree with the rights of the owners will be preserved. me'. I put it to the opposition that real consultation is providing an opportunity for views to be heard Another area of particular interest to people in my and cases to be stated rationally, clearly and electorate are the special provisions, particularly in succinctly if possible or emotionally and relation to bed and breakfast operations, which are a incoherently if not. Those views may not be accepted growing industry in the Dandenong Ranges. Dozens in whole or in part, but at least they will be heard. of new B and B operations open each year. For some time under the old planning processes their There is no case for the opposition to argue that operations were carried out unacknowledged, there has not been enough consultation on this unofficially and, in fact, illicitly. While the bed and legislation. The minister has bent over backwards to breakfast operations existed and while the councils talk to them, to hear them and to give them the knew about them they turned a blind eye. They said, opportunity to put their views. He has not agreed 'Don't advertise and we won't know you're there'. with all of them; in fact, he has disagreed with a Nods and winks passed to and fro between the good number, but he has clearly consulted with B and B operators and the municipal officials. That is them. If he were to continue this process we would a ridiculous way for any tourism industry to never get to the end of it. It is about time the operate, and it is a ridiculous impediment to the legislation was introduced and debated in the house growth of a very effective and much-needed and a decision made. It is not time to withdraw the industry in the Dandenong Ranges. I am pleased to bill, reconsult, redraft and redo. see there are now special conditions for B and B operations in the Dandenong Ranges and across Part of the consultation program involved five pilot Victoria. There will be a consistent set of rules across municipalities across the state in metropolitan, the state for those B and B operations that currently regional and rural municipalities: the City of Port exist and for those wanting to start up. People will Phillip and the City of Brimbank in the metropolitan know exactly where they stand and what the rules area; the regional municipalities of greater Ballarat are; they will know their rights and responsibilities. and the Momington Peninsula; and the rural Alpine That is a far better way for the tourism industry and shire. All types of municipalities were represented in bed and breakfast operators to run than local this pilot program - and it has worked. It has councils turning a blind eye. provided positive benefits. It is more consistent, it is more predictable, and it has shown that there is less PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

1744 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 argument and less strife. It is a decent way to do the a decision made by a planning authority. It still job. provides access to an appeals process.

I am not too sure how many pilot municipalities the I am not sure why the honourable member for opposition would like consulted. Perhaps 78? For Ivanhoe is confused about the matter because those how long would it like the consultation process to avenues are still there. If any of his constituents are continue? Some 5 or 10 years? Perhaps the upset that his local municipality has allowed or opposition would be satisfied then. I think there has disallowed a planning application, they can take it to been enough consultation and it has shown that this the AAT. They can ask for it to be reviewed. They system can work and will work. It provides may win or lose, but they have the option of significant benefits: it is consistent not only within a appealing the decision. municipality but between municipalities from one end of the state to the other; it is rational; it is built The community does not lose its rights and on sound structures; it has the basic planning zones; privileges; it gains a clearer and more consistent it has the overlays; it has the special provisions, all of system. Members of the community will have the which are sensible, consistent and well thought out; opportunity to put their views and to do so in a and it has flexibility. positive way. They have the benefit of getting out of the confused and contradictory mess. We should all The system proposed in the bill relies on the good welcome the bill. sense and professionalism of the planners and the people involved in the industry across the state. It is Mrs MADDIGAN (Essendon) - I support the no longer prescriptive; planners no longer have to reasoned amendment moved by the Deputy Leader tick off boxes and measure setbacks and overhangs of the Opposition to the Planning and Environment in order to do their plans. It will not result in the (Planning Schemes) Bill. I have been amazed at some same grey consistency that can be seen in some of of the comments made by the members on the the suburbs. It allows planners, architects and government side who are trying to tell us that the designers to show their creativity and flare in a bill will introduce a more consistent, logical and sensible and well-planned manner. That will benefit clear-cut planning system. I do not know what sort the community not just now but for many years in of environment they operate in, but there used to be the future. a planning system everybody understood and it worked extremely well. I wonder whether such outstanding buildings as the Sydney Opera House, the Regent Theatre, the That was a normal planning system, under which Princess Theatre or Her Majesty's Theatre would you made a planning application, there was a period have been built without enormous problems having for objection, then you could have a panel hearing. to be confronted under the planning system that Then there was a decision and if you wanted to existed in Victoria. Imagine the objections to the appeal against the decision you could go to the AAT. Sydney Opera House on heritage and environment It was a normal and logical planning system without grounds, on blocking the view or even on the shape intervention. of the thing. Whoever built something with that sort of a roof? It would never have been built because Now we only have to look at the papers to see daily there would have been 25 years of appeals to the examples of people who are alarmed and amazed at AAT. the incredible planning decisions the government makes because the Minister for Planning and Local The new planning system will make it feasible that Government continually calls in appeals for reasons such a building could be approved and built without for which there appears to be no logic and which endless third party objections - and that is to the appear to have absolutely no sense at all. benefit of us all. Mr Maclellan interjected. The bill is a welcome move away from a confused, contradictory and confrontational system to one Mrs MADDIGAN - I don't know why the which is sensible, well conceived and rational and Minister for Planning and Local Government thinks which allows people to sit down together and plan that. I have nothing to do with Broadmeadows. This reasonably. It still provides for something the man is in charge of planning, and he doesn't even honourable member for Ivanhoe was confused know where the Oty of Essendon is! It is nowhere about - avenues of appeal for people who object to near Broadmeadows; that's right up the road. I am PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT (PLANNING SCHEMES) BILL

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1745 talking about the City of Essendon, which does not 2. Public projects like this government's planning schemes at all. They The increasing use of arbitrary powers to exempt like the old system where there was logic and a public projects from normal planning controls and consistent process and where residents had the right environmental impact assessment, and the to make their concerns known and have them taken screening of them from economic assessment on into account by following a reasoned process that the basis of commercial confidentiality. went from one point to the end without constant interference from the government. We see this all the time, once again, supported by the government. Nothing in the bill will overcome This is just another bill the government has those problems. The third point is about access: introduced to try to take power from elected councillors and put it back into its own hands. It is The increasing proportion of the population, and not the first bill we have seen that tries to take away especially of non-breadwinners in single-car powers from councillors - powers residents want households, who now have inadequate means of access their councillors to have and powers councillors to educational, service, retail, cultural and other have exercised extremely well in the past. facilities.

I am somewhat surprised to hear that people on the Nothing in the proposed zones provides for that at government side of the house who were councillors all. Roads, public transport and parklands were in former councils, when we had elected councils, identified as presenting problems that need to be seem to have found the old planning system addressed. Nothing in the bill will protect parklands: problematical and difficult. During the six years I was at Essendon the town planners had no trouble The annexation of parklands for developments with the plaruting scheme. They had no problems irrelevant to or inconsistent with the community's with the process. It was not complicated at all. The enjoyment of them as open space for recreational and proposed system has not only a number of zones but aesthetic purposes, including professional and overlays and VPPs and strategic plans and all the commercial sporting facilities, cultural institutions, rest of it, but it will not help anybody. The bill will hospitals, car parking, roads and freeways. make a number of micro reforms when Victoria has a major planning problem that the bill does not even Nothing in bill addresses those problems about address. which we see letters in the papers all the time. Other problems identified include urban blight and visual A major plaruting conference held in this state in pollution. The bill does not address the major June was attended by about 400 people, including a problems identified at the conference because the number of town planners, members of community government is not really interested in addressing the groups, representatives of councils and some major planning problems. It is interested only in members of the opposition. Needless to say no giving more power to the state government to members of the government were there, because the constantly override the rights of individuals, last thing they want to do is consult with anybody. residents and councillors. A number of major planning issues were raised at the meeting. I will refer to some of them briefly to How outrageous that the government is expecting discover whether the bill addresses any of the issues. the necessary work to be done before March next As I said, the conference was attended by a number year. Many residents, especially those in Moonee of practising town planners as well as residents and Valley who have suffered significant hardship since other interested people. The conference described December 1994 when three unwanted the current planning issues in Victoria that need to commissioners were imposed upon them by this be addressed. They include: government, have been waiting anxiously to be able to elect their councillors so that at last they will have 1. The planning process elected representatives at their local level. The The excessive powers now given to the minister of government is saying, 'That's okay, but before that planning to intervene in or overrule the planning happens we're going to change your plaruting process, and the arbitrary manner in which these scheme totally. It's going to cost you about a quarter are used. of a million dollars, but don't worry, you can change it in three years if you don't like it'. What absolute The bill does not stop that; it increases the power for nonsense! What's the rush? Why can't we wait until the minister to do that. The next point is: HEALTH ACTS (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

1746 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 the councillors are back? The elections are just down environment, the city and the bayside suburbs were the road. There is no justification for the rush. protected. But now we are back to the situation where normal planning controls are ignored while It is reprehensible that the government once again is the views of local councils and residents are not prepared to allow the normal planning process overlooked and the minister calls in applications to proceed in a logical manner. The zones the willy-nilly with no reason and no appropriate government proposes to introduce are quite response. unnecessary. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition was right last night when he pointed out that the It is absolutely disgraceful that this is allowed to barbarians are at the gate - the vandals are there, happen. I am surprised that it has happened. I ask ready to bolt through and the bill opens the gate for members on the government side of the house who them! have been in local government to think again about the provisions of the bill and to vote for the reasoned Perhaps one might have some confidence if there amendment moved by the Deputy Leader of the were some justification for the action of the minister Opposition. The legislation is inappropriate and in calling in some of the planning applications. I does nothing to improve the planning provisions in shall refer to a couple of the decisions local residents Victoria. It is against the interests of residents and have had to suffer which have been against the elected councillors. interests of the residents and often against the interests of their councils. Debate adjourned on motion of Ms McCALL (Frankston). The first amendment approved by the minister was for the Paramount apartments in Bourke Street, Debate adjourned until later this day. which exceed the established 4O-metre height limit by 25 metres - it could not be considered to be a HEALTH ACTS (FURTHER minor matter. Another proposal called in and AMENDMENT) BILL approved by the minister is Rockman's 140-metre Royal Domain apartment tower near Park Road on Returned from Council with message relating to St Kilda Road. It was totally against the interests and amendment: wishes of the commissioners of the Port Phillip council, whom the minister had appointed. It is Council's amendment: disgraceful. Clause 28, page 34, after line 3 insert - In finishing I shall quote a well-known urban u 691. Application of Land Act planner who is associated with the National Trust. He sums it up: Section 137 of the Land Act 1958 does not apply to a proposed lease of Crown land for The planning rules that we believed protected us from the purpose of a hospital.". 'development at all costs' seem to have disappeared, Dr NAPTHINE (Minister for Youth and particularly in the inner suburbs and the city. The retail Community Services) - I move: centre of the city has had height controls that date back to the turn of the century. While these were abandoned That the amendment be agreed to. in office districts, they were maintained in the retail core so that the ambience of the city would be The amendment is relatively minor, but it is preserved - sunlight could penetrate the shopping important for the development of the new Latrobe streets and shoppers would not be subjected to Valley Hospital, which will provide significant hurricane-force winds and gloomy canyons lined by additional facilities in that area. The project involves high-rise buildings. the use of a private consortium to build, own and operate the hospital. It envisages that the successful Melbourne's grand boulevards and beach fronts were consortium will buy the site on which the hospital is protected by height controls (a reaction to a number of to be built. I am advised it will be on the corner of tower blocks built in the 1960s and early 1970s which Village Avenue and the Princes Highway on the old the community had come to realise were inappropriate). drive-in theatre site. What has happened now? We thought we had got to The consortium will purchase and transfer the the stage where there was sensible planning and the privately owned land to the Crown; immediately the ADJOURNMENT

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Crown will provide a 99-year lease back to the hospital. Although the opposition does not object to consortium so the project can be built. The transfer the particular technical provision in the amendment, of the land to the Crown from the private operator is it totally objects to the privatisation of public not a problem but it is necessary to comply with the hospitals. Land Act because 14 days must expire before the land can be leased back from the Crown. The bill refers to a piece of land which the honourable member for Morwell informs me was The financial backers of the consortium have considered as a site for construction of the private expressed some concern about their vulnerability prison in the Latrobe Valley. It was considered to be during that 14-day period. They have sought some unsuitable for that purpose because it was under a legislative comfort to ensure the transfer will local flight path; but apparently it is considered to be proceed posthaste without the 14-day period during suitable for the lucky patients! which time the land would be in the Crown's ownership. The consortium's fear is that their The Latrobe Valley residents have been hit for six! commitment may place them in financial jeopardy. They have had their hospital services reduced and the services of their high-dependency and paediatric The amendment will ensure that section 137 of the units cut. Now the Latrobe Valley residents will end Land Act does not apply to the proposed lease of up with a private hospital for which they should not Crown land for the purpose of a hospital. The be thankful. That is why thousands marched 14-day period will not apply to this sale. The through the streets to oppose the proposal. amendment will allow the consortium to purchase the land, transfer it to the Crown and then have the Mr Hulls - Just as well they have a good local Crown immediately lease the land back to the member or they would have nothing! consortium. Given the considerable amount of money involved, it is not unreasonable that the Mr THWAITES - They have a good local financial backers of the consortium would want member. The real problem to be caused by the some degree of comfort for what they see as the privatisation will not become apparent for some 14-day hiatus. years. The cost by way of a reduction in services to the community will be considerable because the Mr THWAITES (Albert Park) - The opposition experience around the world where hospital services does not oppose the amendment as it is minor in have been privatised is that the access to hospital nature. Its purpose seems to be to give some comfort services and the public role in planning health to the financiers of the project, who have a services will be reduced. That is why the opposition considerable interest in the program and who will remains firmly opposed to any privatisation of our contribute some millions of dollars towards the great public hospital system. purchase and development of the site. The SPEAKER - Order! I am of the opinion that My main concern is that the same sort of comfort is the amendment must be carried by an absolute not being given to the Victorian taxpayers who are majority. not privy to even the details of the contract. Apart from those within limited government circles, Bells rung. nobody knows how much taxpayers will pay for the privatised hospital during the next 20 years. Members having assembled in chamber:

If the hospital is to be of such great benefit to the Motion agreed to by absolute majority. Latrobe Valley, as the minister said, I would have thought the government should have been honest ADJOURNMENT enough to produce the contract. But the government continues to conceal the contract. Therefore, a The SPEAKER - Order! The time for me to sensible person would think the government has interrupt business has now arrived. something to hide. Teachers: T AFE That fear is exacerbated by the fact that the New South Wales Auditor-General found that the cost of Mr HAMILTON (Morwell) - I raise a matter for a privatised contract there is 30 per cent more the attention of the Minister for Tertiary Education expensive than the cost of a comparative private and Training. I ask the minister to intervene in a ADJOURN M ENT

1748 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 whole range of industrial relations disputes that are suburbs where a degree of annoyance or occurring in TAPE colleges all over the city. aggravation may be caused by one neighbour to Victorian TAFE teachers are the lowest paid teachers another or between people within the wider in Australia. They have the highest productivity of neighbourhood. all teachers in that they teach more students with less staff. They have the lowest level of support staff A specific example has been drawn to my attention of any TAPE sector in the country. The only suitable about a breakdown in rapport between two contrast would probably be our company directors, neighbours involving the rattling of doors, shaking who are the highest paid and receive the best perks. of fences and playing of loud music. Although specific remedies are available under the law of The disputes concern pay and conditions. The nuisance, if police are called to an incident they do teachers at HOlmesglen College of TAPE are under not necessarily have the capacity or authority to duress. The college is refusing to negotiate with intervene to resolve the matter. them. There is no hope of achieving a consent agreement. The teachers at Western Metropolitan There have been examples where such conduct has College of TAPE are being threatened with either the occurred over a period and the issue I raise with the sack or being put on a 51-week-a-year contract. That Attorney-General is to ascertain whether, as part of is an absolute scandal. The teachers at Northern the review process, the matter could be examined to Metropolitan TAPE are currently in court with a assess whether there are other cases that fall within dispute over pay and conditions. At the Royal the gap of the two acts which may enable a Melbourne Institute of Technology the teachers have law-abiding resident within a neighbourhood to take been told 'sign or be sacked'. some action and also give the local police the ability to take action rather than being called out for each That is an absolutely outrageous situation in what incident and not having the capacity to respond is - or probably was - the best TAPE sector in positively to restrain the parties guilty of such levels Australia. These teachers are being threatened with of annoyance and domestic disturbance. the sack if they do not sign an agreement. They have been given legal advice not to sign but to negotiate. Metropolitan Women's Correctional There is supposed to be an enterprise bargain Centre agreement in place at RMIT, but in the actual agreement - I have seen a copy of the document - Ms CAMPBELL (Pascoe Vale) - I direct to the the matter under dispute has not been mentioned in Minister for Corrections the Metropolitan Women's relation to the enterprise bargain agreement Correctional Centre at Deer Park, which has been the registered with the Industrial Relations Commission. subject of a number of complaints - some extremely serious - since it has opened. I direct two matters to The climate of intimidation and fear in our colleges the attention of the minister. The first is the is typical of a dictatorial, Stalinist management style inadequate amount of clothing for the residents of and is just not acceptable. The minister ought to the centre and the second relates to problems with have a good look at this. I have copies of the health services. correspondence. If the minister has any respect for our TAPE teachers, if he has any concern for the The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable students who will be the ultimate victims of this member is entitled to raise only one matter during vicious attack on our teachers, he needs to become the motion for the adjournment of the house. involved and make sure that these disputes are settled as a matter of some urgency. Ms CAMPBELL - The centre opened with great fanfare in December last year and is operated by Neighbourhood disputes Corrections Corporation of Australasia, a profit-making organisation. There have been many Mr THOMPSON (Sandringham) - I direct the stories of inadequate warm clothing being supplied Attorney-General to an issue concerning the to the residents. The centre is located on the western breakdown in relations with neighbours and plains which is subject to severe cold winds. Women members of local communities. The Crimes (Family requiring larger fittings were unable to obtain warm Violence) Act and the legislation dealing with clothing which meant they were often cold or stalking have been enacted by this Parliament to inadequately clothed. cover a range of offences, but they do not necessarily cover the type of behaviour that may transpire in the ADJOURNMENT

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The prison officers are given warm parkas, but the provide the excellent service that the police provide women residents are given plastic rain jackets. The in the Murray Valley electorate? Essendon Community Legal Centre drew to my attention the fact that one of the women, because of Metropolitan Women's Correctional her size, has only pyjama pants to wear - I presume Centre she has some other clothing. Because insufficient large-sized clothing is available in tracksuit pants Mr HAERMEYER (Yan Yean) - The matter I this lady, who has injured her leg, finds that the wish to raise is for the attention of the Minister for leggings will not go over her bandages. If women Corrections and concerns the Metropolitan Women's are not given adequate overalls they are often strip Correctional Centre at Deer Park, the first private searched and members opposite should know what prison in Victoria. There was an assault at the prison happens when that occurs. They are subject to on 6 November involving a prisoner named Tracy vaginal examinations - it is a humiliating Reabum. She was beaten in the prison and had a experience for the women. broken kneecap, but was kept in isolation until 13 November. She received no medical attention I ask the minister to investigate the situation to make until that date and it was only discovered on the sure there is adequate warm clothing and night of 13 November that she had a broken large-sized clothing. The women who have kneecap. I wonder whether the prison has reported undergone strip searches deserve an apology from that incident because it has a terrible history of the minister and from CCA for the humiliating glossing over incidents. Under its contract the prison experiences that they have been put through as a had an obligation to report the incident. I am result of poor management at the centre. concerned about the integrity and honesty of the heads of this prison in reporting these incidents. Police: Tungamah station In November there was a siege involving the same Mr JASPER (Murray Valley) - I raise a matter prisoner. On the night of the siege the general for the attention of the Minister for Police and manager, Mr Gary Ernmerson, decided, after he had Emergency Services. The minister will. be aware of commenced his dinner and the fluids associated the excellence of the police facilities in the Murray therewith, that he would sit on the floor, pat the Valley electorate, particularly the 24-hour floor and beg the inmate to come out. He said, headquarters at Wangaratta and other facilities 'Please, Tracy; come out'. The condition on which which the minister visited on a recent trip to she came out was that there would be no record of north-eastern Victoria. Police facilities right across the incident. my electorate of Murray Valley are excellent and are generally new. A siege should be recorded as an incident in any prison and certainly in a private prison that hides The small township of Tungamah has a one-man behind the veil of commercial confidentiality. This police station. Recently the police officer stationed prison is interested only in profit. I refer to an article there resigned so the town does not have a police in this week's edition of the local newspaper, the presence. It has been brought to my attention by a Western Advocate, which states: number of constituents in Tungamah and surrounding areas and by the Moira Shire Council The prison's general manager, Mr Gary Emmerson, that the police station is currently unoccupied. I ask said the centre did not have a rehabilitation program the minister to appoint a new police officer to and believed too much attention had been placed on Tungamah as quickly as possible. I also seek a the special therapy. reassurance from the minister that there is a commitment by this government to one-man police 'I think that for far too long the focus has been on the stations that are operating in country Victoria and rehabilitation (of a prisoner),' Mr Emmerson said. that it recognises their importance and the service they provide to country communities. A source close to the correctional centre told the AdvoCJ2te a rehabilitation program had not been set up There are a number of one-man police stations in the because of the enormous costs associated with the electorate of Murray Valley, and all are currently therapy. manned. However, the Tungamah station is not manned. Will the minister advise me when a police This is a bungling, corrupt, incompetent operation officer will be appointed to Tungamah to continue to which is concerned only about lining its own ADJOURNMENT

1750 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996 pockets for profit. It is an example of the abject Mr Haermeyer - On a point of order, failure of private prisons in this state. Mr Speaker, I wonder how the matter raised by the honourable member falls under the portfolio of the ALP: branch stacking minister to whom he referred it. Secondly, the honourable member at this stage has not indicated Mr LEIGH (Mordialloc) - The Minister for what action -- Multicultural Mfairs will recall that on 30 October in this chamber the honourable member for Mill Park The SPEAKER - Order! There is no point of was suggesting that there should be an inquiry into order. the activities of the Labor PartY in the south-eastem suburbs. Mr LEIGH - I am seeking an inquiry because I . am sick of ethnic people being used by these two I direct to the Premier's attention some quotes from individuals to corrupt their own political party. The the Oaldeigh SpringvaZe Dandenong Times, which are honourable member for Springvale is dead and he important to the community in our area. The first knows it. The honourable member for Oayton is quote, which I believe will lead to a positive trying to ruin him. outcome for our community, states: The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable I fully support that, but this is not the same as bringing member's time has expired. in people who are unaware in some cases that they are actually party members and only bringing them out to Education: federal funding vote in FEA elections or preselections. Mr MILDENHALL (Footscray) - I raise a matter This quote was from none other than the shadow for the attention of the Minister for Education and in minister for ethnic affairs. He has produced a paper his absence the Minister for Planning and Local in his own electorate entitled 'Branch stacking - a Government. It is regrettable that the Minister for threat to multiculturalism'. The newspaper also Education is not here to be accountable for his quotes Mr Micallef as saying: actions. If he were here, he would probably try to gloss over what is going on. The use of specific ethnic groups to join the party as a block and in some cases to vote a particular I refer to the horrific commonwealth funding spokesperson or identity from that community into reductions in the education portfolio. Despite the Parliament was a worrying and unhelpful trend. claims of the federal minister, the Victorian education system has been hit for six by the funding This was all said by the honourable member for cuts. Springvale. They include a $6.3 million reduction in specific In the same edition the honourable member for purpose funding, and the reductions will continue Oayton refused to conduct an interview with the until the year 2000. The local paper because of the allegations by the Premier English-as-a-second-Ianguage program has had a in this chamber the previous week. He declined the funding cut of 3.7 per cent, and the disadvantaged interview but then released a statement saying: schools program has been cut by 11.4 per cent, but that is Australia-wide. In Victoria it has been halved. I categorically deny claims by the Premier or any other person of improper practice recruiting members to the The early literacy program has been reduced by Australian Labor Party. 38.4 per cent. That demonstrates the absolute hypocrisy of the coalition parties ~hen they talk He then said: about the literacy problems in Australia, yet they further cut the budget purporting to address the I can make no other comment at this time as I am problem. seeking legal advice. CAP has been reduced by 5.4 per cent, and the The honourable member for Springvale is under government has totally abolished the Students at assault from another member of his party who is Risk program and the National Professional misusing the community. Development program. ADJOURNM ENT

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That shows the miserable level of commitment and tram systems to see that Minister for Transport is a the low priority the coalition parties give to state can-do minister. There are premium stations at education. The minister has claimed the state was Eltham and Greensborough, where extra security not notified of the federal government cuts until lighting has been installed and which are staffed 14 November, some three months after the budget from first train to last. We need to keep improving was brought down. I would like to know how that our public transport system to deter people from could possibly be the case. I would also like an using motor cars. The more people we can get on to investigation into what is happening to those public transport the better it will be not only for the programs. system but also for the environment and people of Eltham and Diamond Creek. The minister has said he is in no position to refund the money. Given the record surplus and the mickey Merbein: channel reserve mouse programs he is funding at the moment, surely the minister should consider substituting Mr SAVAGE (Mildura) - In the absence of the state funds to ease the dreadful impact the cuts Minister for Conservation and Land Management I made by his federal colleagues are having on those raise a matter for the attention of the Minister for essential programs that help students at risk and the Planning and Local Government. In 1974 Mr and disadvantages faced by those living in many parts of Mrs Foreman bought block 7 at McEdward Road, Melbourne. I ask the minister to investigate those Merbein. Between their block and a neighbouring matters forthwith and to accept some responsibility. block there was a channel reserve some 20 metres He should come into the house and address those wide. In 1975 Mr Foreman realised some of the issues. sheds he owned were on that channel reserve.

Buses: Eltham-Diamond Creek The area included water tanks, a driveway and a water supply. Mr Foreman wrote to the Rural Water Mr PHILLIPS (Eltham) - I ask the Minister for Commission of the time and requested that he be Planning and Local Government to direct to the considered for an expression of interest for purchase attention of the Minister for Transport the possibility of the channel reserve should it become surplus to of establishing a bus service from Eltham to needs. Diamond Creek. I have received numerous requests for the service from people in Eltham and Diamond In 1995 the channel reserve was sold to the Creek, some of whom live in the Yan Yean neighbouring property without any reference to electorate. They talk to me because the member for Mr Foreman. I have raised this matter with the Yan Yean is never there to assist them. The only way Minister for Conservation and Land Management, you can get from Eltham to Diamond Creek by bus and there has been a fair amount of commWlication is via route 513. You must catch the bus from between my office and hers. The valuation that was Eltham, travel to Greensborough, which is on the used for the sale was eight years old. The offer of Eltham-Glenroy 513 bus route, get off at land was not gazetted in the local paper. Greensborough and then catch the Greensborough-Diamond Creek bus. The Foreman family has had uninterrupted use of the channel reserve for 22 years. The Dolenics, their Diamond Creek is a small developing community, neighbours, are not in any way to blame for the and Eltham is already an established community. problem. They have been very fair to their There are some major road systems between Eltham neighbours but they refuse to excise that piece of the and Greensborough. There is now a new shopping channel reserve. The department says that it sold the complex on the site boWlded by Wallowa Road, land in good faith. If it has not commWlicated with Aqueduct Road and St Helena's Road, which many both adjoining land-holders there is an element of Diamond Creek and Eltham people are using. It unfairness. I ask the minister to inquire into the seems silly that people who clearly want to shop in matter again in the interests of fairness to determine the area or go to Diamond Creek on business or to whether some ex-gratia assistance should be given visit or shop have to travel along a route that is to the Foremans to remove the property on the almost like having to go down to visit the penguins channel reserve. when you want to go to Echuca!

One only has to look at some of the innovative changes he has made in reforming our bus, train and ADJOURNMENT

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Rail: passenger safety The matter concerns the traffic flows and the use of the river. Over the past six months the council has Mr BA TCHELOR (Thomas town) - I raise a consulted with the residents living around the matter for the attention of the Minister for Police and riverbank and on the hills surrounding the area. Emergency Services relating to the apparent failure of the Intergraph communication system to provide I request that the minister meet with the City of assistance for public transport passengers on a Stonnington to talk about strategic planning for the Frankston line train when they were being abused area, traffic management on the river and the and threatened by an aggressive drunk male environmental impact of recreational use of the area passenger. along Alexandra Avenue.

I am told the incident occurred on 12 August this Responses year on the 10.10 p.m. train from the city to Frankston. We would like an investigation, an Mr KENNE1T (Premier) - The honourable explanation and an apology about what happened. member for Mordialloc, not for the first time, During that journey a drunk passenger threatened expressed concerns about the activities within the people in the carriage that was in operation. The Labor Party that are causing unrest within ethnic other two carriages were closed off so people had communities. I have known the honourable member nowhere else to go. The train driver intervened for Springvale ever since he entered this place. when this aggressive passenger refused to allow the Obviously, we have had our differences on a range train doors to close so the train could leave an of policy issues, but in the area of multicultural intermediate station. affairs we act in a united way and we have taken what is fundamentally a bipartisan approach. I do This drunk, aggressive passenger was told he would not say that to try to embarrass him, but most be reported to the police. When the train arrived at honourable members would realise that this area of Frankston no police had arrived. The passengers government administration requires a degree of then communicated directly with the local police understanding and a great deal of sensitivity. station and police officers subsequently attended the scene. By this time the abusive person had It is my honour to have been a minister, a shadow disappeared and the passengers were left feeling minister and now Premier with responsibilities for isolated, in need of help and deserted. communities in the state since 1980. Therefore, the comments made by the honourable member for I seek a thorough explanation from the minister, an Springvale reported on 6 November in the Times, his investigation of the incident and an assurance that local newspaper, must be taken seriously. When he when staff on public transport are in need of indicates that not only does the Labor Party risk assistance they are not abandoned because of losing its traditional supporters but also it is creating failures of the Intergraph communication system. racial unrest amongst the communities in his area, We do not want public transport system passengers one must take that seriously. to be left stranded as so many ambulance passengers were by the failure of the police communications Mr Thwaites interjected. system. Mr KENNETI - The honourable member for The Minister for Public Transport makes great play Albert Park has obviously had a good dinner. We of the fact that the Victoria Police are now patrolling, welcome that, but if he has no interest in the ethnic available and accessible to help people in need on communities and multicultural affairs -- public transport, but the experience of passengers on the Frankston line was to the contrary on this Mr Thwaites interjected. occasion. We would like some assistance and a guarantee that people can feel safe when they are Mr KENNETI - I always think you are better travelling on our public transport system. after dinner! You are grinning from ear to ear and you are making a fool of yourself. Herring Island riverbank The honourable member for Springvale's comment Ms BURKE (Prahran) - I raise a matter with the that the Labor Party risked creating racial unrest is a Minister for Conservation and Land Management serious claim. Obviously the honourable member about the Herring Island riverbank in my electorate. has written a paper called Branchstac1cing - a threat ADJOURNMENT

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1753 to multiculturalism. I hope the honourable member problem not only in this instance but also one that will give me a copy. I would be more than happy to occurs throughout the community in Melbourne and take up the matter and have it investigated. It is regional areas. The honourable member suggested important that all members of this place do this problem fell between the Crimes (Family whatever they can to ensure racial tolerance within Violence) Act and the stalking legislation. Neither of our society. The honourable member for Springvale those pieces of legislation were available in this has indicated that the Labor Party is not supporting instance. multiculturalism but it is causing racial unrest in the Springvale and Dandenong areas. When I was a student it would have been suggested that the appropriate action in that circumstance The house would be aware, as I am, that the would be found in the law of nuisance. However, a honourable member for Clayton for some time has number of these sorts of incidences are being been irresponsibly pitting one group of Australians brought to my attention, including one that occurred against another. That is not good politics and it is recently in my street, and that does not appear to be not in the Australian tradition. The honourable the solution to dealing with the problem in the long member for Springvale has made the claim and if he term. It appears to be a widespread problem and wishes to present any information he has to the deserves further consideration. Perhaps the matter Chairman of the Victorian Multicultural should be referred to a parliamentary committee. I Commission, Professor Trang Thomas, I will ensure will give it further consideration. that she and the commission independently assess and investigate his concerns. Mr W. D. McGRATH (Minister for Police and Emergency Services) - Both the honourable Perhaps there is no more serious charge than that members for Pascoe Vale and Yan Yean drew to my laid by the honourable member for Springvale, attention the new prison for female offenders. The given his involvement in this area over many years. opposition seems to hate anything run by the private The Labor Party has traditionally abused members sector. What it should understand, however, is that a of the ethnic community, or used them or laughed at process has been put in place. Firstly, all private them. Tonight it has laughed at them. The prisons will be operated under contracts and those honourable member for Albert Park and those contracts will be overseen and audited by the sitting on his side seem to think this is a joke. commissioner, Mr John Van Groningen. I do not understand the opposition's criticisms of Honourable members interjecting. Mr Van Groningen, because I consider him to be the best administrator of any government agency. Mr KENNETf - This is a good indication that members on the other side are treating this matter If malpractices were detected and if an operator lightly and not taking seriously what the honourable were found to be in breach of his contract the member for Springvale has said. I am happy to have operator would face a financial penalty. That is the the matter investigated by the multicultural first process. commission. I will refer the matter to Professor Thomas and if she believes this matter The second process is that Dame Phyllis Frost heads needs not only investigation but a more serious up the Women's Correctional Advisory Council, investigation than the commission can conduct, I which is an avenue for the female offenders at that will be prepared to entertain that proposal. private prison to voice their problems. I spoke to Dame Phyllis Frost on the telephone today and she Mr Haermeyer interjected. did not raise either of those issues or draw them to my attention. Once again, I believe the honourable The SPEAKER - Order! The honourable member is totally out of order. member for Yan Yean will remain silent. He has interrupted proceedings too often. Let me go on to the criticism about strip searches. To the credit of this government, in the past three to Mrs WADE (Attorney-General) - The four years we have reduced the number of prisoners honourable member for Sandringham raised a in our prison system who test positively to illicit problem between neighbours and cited an example drugs from 23 per cent to 7 per cent. H members of from his electorate that involved people from a the opposition were honest, they would family that are irritating their neighbour with loud acknowledge that illicit drugs are the greatest music and fence-banging. This is a significant problem for our prison population today. In fact, ADJOURNMENT

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70 per cent of people who go to gaol in this state are I return to the honourable member for ThomastoWIl. there because of illicit drug-related crime. I will have the matter investigated and report back to him. People using public transport should be The strip searching process is necessary to ensure entitled to travel in comfort and safety, and being that we minimise or totally eliminate drugs in annoyed by a drunk when in transit is something we prisons. The Premier and I gave a strong want to get rid of in our system. commitment at the opening of the gaol that we wanted it to be drug free. Female offenders often The honourable member for Murray Valley referred reoffend when they get out of gaol because they go to the Tungamah police station where the police back to trafficking drugs and to prostitution or officer has resigned. The government is strongly burglary. The honourable member for Pascoe Vale committed to a policy of retaining one-man police may want to see that continue, but I certainly do not. stations within country regions. I guess from time to One of the other real precautions is that visitors who time police operations have to review the role of are suspected of canying illicit drugs to gaols are one-man police stations. I will ask the Chief referred to the police for further investigation, once Commissioner of Police tomorrow about when a again minimising the amount of drugs that go into new police officer is to be permanently based at gaols. Tungamah police station.

Part of the policy we are considering with regard to The state has a very good police force under the the Sentencing Act will be that prisoners serve half leadership of Neil Comrie. In comparison with the their gaol sentences - perhaps 6 months of a rest of Australia the statistics show that Victoria is 12-month sentence - by participating in coming out in front in relation to the number of rehabilitation programs to assist to break their crimes committed, and the number of crimes solved addiction to illicit drugs. The other matter the in this state is the highest of any jurisdiction. From honourable member for Pascoe Vale drew to my that point of view, policing is in good order. I fully attention was adequate programs. I have spoken to understand the importance of police officers in our Dame Phyllis Frost about this, so you are about three country towns, particularly at one-man police months off the pace. These issues were addressed stations, where they not only carry out good about two months ago. policing--

The other matter referred to by the honourable Mr Stockdale - On a point of order, Mr Speaker, member for Yan Yean related to the provision of today in question time you indicated to the health services. That is part of the overall opposition that if its ratbag behaviour continued you performance contract the private contractors adhere would give the second question to the government. to. If there are problems with the health services, We are seeing the same ratbag behaviour tonight. and they certainly have not been brought to my Could I suggest, Sir, that you announce that if this attention by Mr Van Groningen, then financial ratbag behaviour continues the minister will provide penalties will be imposed on the prison operators. answers for all the matters raised during the adjournment debate. The honourable member for Thomastown raised a concern about drunks on trains and the transit The SPEAKER - Order! I am happy to have the police. I totally agree with him, because from time to Treasurer's advice but there is no point of order. time there are drunks on our public transport system and they are an absolute bloody nuisance. My Mr W. D. McGRATH -It is fair to say that the understanding is that if the Intergraph system has police officers in one-man police stations do a very broken down and no police resources are available good job in policing their districts and townships the transit police at both Spencer and Flinders streets and also play an important part in general stations do a lot of vetting of the people getting onto community activities. Therefore there is strong trains. support for the retention of one-man police stations and I hope the vacancy is filled in the near future. It is interesting that the honourable members for Pascoe Vale and Yan Yean are racing off to the late Mr MACLELLAN (Minister for Planning and press to try to get a story out. They are about trying Local Government) - The honourable member for to politicise this whole issue. Footscray raised a matter for the Minister for Education regarding a reduction in commonwealth funding. I will draw that to the attention of the ADJOURNMENT

Thursday, 5 December 1996 ASSEMBLY 1755 minister and ask him to respond to the honourable The honourable member for Prahran briefly raised a member. matter, again for the Minister for Conservation and Land Management, regarding traffic flows and The honourable member for Eltham referred to bus issues on the river bank at Alexandra Avenue in the services between Eltham and Diamond Creek which Prahran electorate. I will draw those matters to the he believes are needed to connect parts of his attention of the minister, as the honourable member electorate with shopping centres and community asked. However, if there is to be any conferencing services. I will draw that to the attention of the with Stonnington council a precautionary measure Minister for Transport and ask him whether he can might be to take the Minister for Roads and Ports look into the possibility of expanding transport just to make sure all the roads in the area are not services in the Eltham area. However, the shut. I am sure the honourable member would not honourable member will realise that he would need want all of them shut, just perhaps some narrowing. community support for those services to be introduced. The honourable member for Morwell raised a matter for the Minister for Tertiary Education and Training The honourable member for Mildura raised a matter regarding employment agreements in the TAFE for the Minister for Conservation and Land area. The honourable member decorated his matter Management. Although I was patiently trying to with a number of extravagant and flamboyant hear the honourable member, I had some difficulty. comments regarding intimidation and, as As I understood it, somebody was dissatisfied or I understood it, Stalinist industrial relations unhappy at the fact that surplus channel land was practices. I understood, though, that the honourable sold to somebody else, even though they expressed member had long regarded the Stalinist era as a an interest in purchasing the land should it be worker's paradise. declared surplus. The SPEAKER - Order! The house stands If I understood the last remarks of the honourable adjourned until next day. member he suggested there might be an ex gratia payment - I take it to the disappointed parties. In House adjourned 10.53 p.m. other words, the landowners who were not given the opportunity to buy the land should somehow be given an ex gratia payment. I think it is unlikely there would be an ex gratia payment in those circumstances, but I will ask the Minister for Conservation and Land Management to see if she can review the file in relation to the sale. ADJOURNMENT

1756 ASSEMBLY Thursday, 5 December 1996