Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 22 NOVEMBER 1962

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1800 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

THURSDAY, 22 NOVEMBER, 1962 "(2) The number of applications deter­ mined during the years 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961 and 1962 from either (a) Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, tenants and (b) landlords are set out as Murrumba) took the chair at 11 a.m. hereunder-1957, Applications from tenants, 247; Applications from landlords, QUESTIONS 524; 1958, Applications from tenants, 123; Applications from landlords, 558; 1959, DRINK-DRIVING CONVICTIONS, TOWNSVILLE Applications from tenants, 89; Applications Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) asked the from landlords, 280; 1960, Applications Minister for Justice- from tenants 75; Applications from land­ lords, 231; 1961, Applications from ten­ "For the last twelve months for which ants, 107; Applications from landlords, figures are readily available how many 219; 1962 (Part), Applications from tenants, offenders in Townsville were convicted of 20; Applications from landlords 518." being in charge of a motor vehicle while under the influence of liquor and what was "(3) It would be incorrect to say that the total amount of fines imposed?" any determination has favoured either the tenant or the landlord. The rental in Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong) replied- each case is assessed by the Court in "In the Court of Petty Sessions at conformity with the requirements of the Townsville, during the twelve months law." ended October 31, 1962, 15 offenders "(4) No." were convicted of the offence of being in charge of a motor vehicle whilst under the influence of liquor. The total fines RELIEF OF UNEMPLOYMENT imposed in these cases amounted to £830. During the same period 33 persons were Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West-Leader convicted of the offence of driving under of the Opposition) asked the Acting Minister the influence of liquor-32 of these per­ for Labour and Industry- sons were fined a total of £1,770 whilst in "In view of the lastest figures released one case the penalty was imprisonment by the Federal Minister for Labour, Mr. for four months." McMahon, that the number of people seeking employment in Queensland rose by APPLICAT!O;-.!S FOR RENTAL DETERMINAT!ONS 931 to a figure of nearly 13,000 during UNDER LANDLORD AND TENANT ACTS October, will he urge the Premier to Mr. BROMLEY (Norman) asked the reconsider the decision to delay the spend­ Minister for Justice- ing of special money granted by the Commonwealth for the relief of unemploy­ "(!) Is it a fact that under the present amended Landlord and Tenant Acts, land­ ment and not hold this urgently required lords can force or ask an incoming tenant money as the basis of a pre-election to sign a document to the effect that the expenditure campaign?" premises will be excluded from Part III of the Acts?" Hon. A. T. DEWAR (Wavell) replied- "(2) How many applications by (a) "Whilst the number registered as unem­ tenants and (b) landlords for rental deter­ ployed in Queensland increased by 9 31 mination have been handled by the Fair during October, due to seasonal conditions, Rents Court in the years 1957, 1958, 1959, it is pointed out that there was a total 1960, 1961 and 1962?" fall of 17,502 from 30,426 at the end of January, 1962, to 12,924 at the end of "(3) How many have favoured (a) the last month. Again, the October, 1962 tenant and (b) the landlord?" figure is almost 25 per cent. lower tha~ "(4) Is he considering the complete the figure for October last year. It is abolition of the Fair Rents Court?" particularly encouraging that this reduction is evident in every district of the State. Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong) replied­ For instance, the number receiving unem­ "(1) Subsection (2) of Section 4A. of The ployment benefits in the metropolitan area Landlord and Tenant Acts provides that at this time last year was 4,161, compared 'The provisions of Part Ill. of this with a present 2,753. In Toowoomba last Act shall not apply to any premises year, the figure was 514; this year 353. In (being premises other than those referred Townsville last year 911; this year 474. to in subsection one hereof) leased after The Government is maintaining a close the first day of December, one thousand watch on the employment situation in nine hundred and fifty-seven, where the every district of the State, and is already taking postive action in this regard. The parties to that lease have agreed in necessity for ensuring that works with a writing that Part Ill. of this Act shall high labour content were given a high not apply to such lease: Such an agree­ priority was also uppermost in the mind ment may be made in respect of any of the Government when planning the lease, but in respect of a particular lease Governmental works programme for the shall be for the purpose of that lease current financial year, for the purpose of only'." assisting those areas where pockets of Questions [22 NOVEMBER] Questions 1801

unemployment arise. These funds have decision be reached before the mass meeting been earmarked for expenditure on of Brisbane citizens is held on December 4 forestry works, housing, railway track at the Albert Hall as a protest?" relaying, and maintenance of public and hospital buildings-all of which have a Hon. H. RICHTER (Somerest) replied­ high labour content. Special consideration "It is not possible to give any under­ was also given in the allocation of the taking that the report will be completed limited debenture borrowings approved by the Loan Council for semi-Governmental by the date mentioned." and other bodies to the needs of those areas as regards the absorption of unem­ PRIMARY SCHOOL, BROADWATER ROAD ployed seasonal workers. There has been HOUSING COMMISSION ESTATE no holding back of the utilisation of any Government funds for a pre-election Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) asked the expenditure campaign, as alleged by the Minister for Education and Migration- Leader of the Opposition. Indeed, the expenditure of Government moneys, includ­ "'Have the working plans for the new ing the grants of £3.34 million approved primary school adjacent to Wishart Road in February and £3.64 million in June, has and opposite the Broadwater Road Queens­ obviously contributed to the reduction in land Housing Commission Estate been the number of registered unemployed as completed? If so, when is it anticipated mentioned above. This compares with an that work will commence on the building average reduction of 5,100 during the of the school?" same period of the year for Labour's last three years of office in this State. Queens­ Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis) replied- land's seasonal employment is responsible "Jt has not been possible to date to for a peak of unemployment in January each year, generally reducing for the fol­ complete the working plans for this pro­ lowing eight to nine months. It is, conse­ ject, but it is anticipated that they will quently, desirable that there should be be finalised at an early date. As an some stimulus in Government employment estimate of cost has to be calculated after in the new calendar year. I remind the the plan has been completed and con­ Leader of the Opposition that the grant sideration then given to approving of by the Commonwealth Government of the proposal with due regard to available £3.64 million for employment-giving funds, no indication can be given at this activities in 1962-1963 is received in juncture, as to when work will commence." twelve equal instalments, payable at the end of each month. Only one-third of the grant has been received to date and only SUBDIVIDING OF HoUSING CoMMISSION LAND, some forty-one per cent. will be received MANLY WEST prior to Christmas. Thus, even the receipt of the funds dictates a greater expenditure Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) asked the in the second half of the financial year. Treasurer and Minister for Housing- The Government has submitted a Budget "(!) When will work commence on the designed to create the highest level of subdividing of land, including water employment in Queensland's history. The channelling and roads, of the 47 sites Budget provides for the expenditure, this anticipated in the adjoining land owned year, not only of the Special Grant of by the Queensland Housing Commission £3.64 million but also for other special bounded by Wondall and Randall Roads, Commonwealth funds for developmental activities, including-Mount Isa Railway Manly West?" Project, £8, 195,000; Beef Cattle Roads, "(2) Has the Commission purchased any £1,830,000; Fitzroy Brigalow Land further land in this area for the construc­ Development, £1,650,000. The Honour­ tion of homes?" able the Treasurer advises me that, although the State has, to date, received Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth) replied- over 60 per cent. of its loan raisings for "(!) Early in the New Year the Com­ the year, receipts in all Funds to date miSSIOn's Consulting Engineers will be aggregate £88.8 million, against a total authorised to prepare plans and specifica­ expenditure of £89.6 million, an over­ tions for roadworks, kerbing and channel· expenditure of £.8 million." ling and stormwater drainage for this area so that the works may be completed about REPORT OF LAND VALUATIONS COMMITTEE June 30 next. At present in this and the Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West-Leader adjoining section there are available for of the Opposition) asked the Minister for the erection of houses 14 sites and a Public Works and Local Government- further 12 will be made available in a week. In addition 19 houses now under "Will he expedite the findings of the construction are available for purchase." committee formed to consider the present system of land valuations, even if only by "(2) Six additional sites were purchased way of an interim report, so that some in June, 1962." 1802 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

QUALIFICATIONS OF MEDICAL SPECIALISTS Hon. H. W. NOBLE (Yeronga) replied- Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) asked "(1 to 4) Before I could comment on the Minister for Health and Home AffairS-- the article in 'The Courier-Mail' news­ paper of November 21, headed 'Medical "(1) Before a doctor in Queensland can Mistakes Blamed', I would require to have hold himself out to be a specialist what more details than are given in a statistical qualifications must he possess over and report of the Registrar-General, for above those held at graduation?" example, "over-dosage with drugs" would "(2) Has he to undergo a course of be caused by patients themselves taking post-graduate study terminating in an an overdose, whilst 'adverse reactions to examination?" drugs' might be due to patients being allergic to the particular drug and this "(3) Is there any Government board or being unknown both to the patient and authority controlling the operations and the doctor. All deaths under anaesthesia practices of so-called specialists?" in Queensland are required to be reported to the Coroner who investigates the death. Hon. H. W. NOBLE (Y eronga) replied- There were three known cases and one " (I) He must be the holder of a degree probable case of babies being born in or diploma approved by the Medical Board Queensland with deformities due to Thalid­ in the specialty to which his application omide. No responsibility can be attached relates, of a University or other institution to the doctors concerned." which is legally authorised to grant that degree or diploma." ELIGIBILITY OF MANUAL TRAINING TEACHERS FOR PROMOTION AND ADMISSION TO "(2) In addition to the qualification he TEACHERS' UNION must satisfy the Board that he has gained special skill in the particular specialty bv Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) asked the Minis­ adequate experience-(a) in practice for ter for Education and Migration- a period of not less than five years; (b) "Concerning the trade teachers, manual in a hospital approved by the Board for training teachers and teachers of Gatton not less than three years; or (c) partly Agricultural College, who have completed in practice or partly in a hospital so the two-year course of the Technical Corres­ approved for a period of not less than pondence School, consisting of education four years." psychology, teaching methods for technical teachers, history and principles of tech­ "(3) The Medical Board is responsible nical education and teaching organisation, for implementing the Medical Act which and who have passed the progressive tests relates to the control of the practice of during the course- medicine including specialists." (1) Will the completion of this course allow these men to be eligible for apoint­ DEATHS CAUSED BY MEDICAL MISADVENTURE; ment as deputy principals or principals PRESCRIBING OF THALIDOMIDE of high schools and technical colleges? Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) asked the (2) Will they now be eligible for Minister for Health and Home Affairs- admission to the Teachers' Union? "(1) Has his attention been drawn to (3) If the answer to Question (1) or an article in 'The Courier-Mail' of Novem­ Question (2) is in the negative, what ber 21, headed 'Medical Mistakes Blamed,' extra study must these men do to qualify for such appointments and be eligible wherein it was stated that detailed figures for membership of the Union?" given by the Registrar-General of Eng­ land and Wales showed that in 1960, medi­ Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis) replied- cal misadventure by doctors in those coun­ "(1) The academic qualification for tries killed 670 patients?" appointment as Principal or Deputy "(2) Is any similar check made in Principal of a Technical College is pos­ Queensland and, if so, how many patients session of a degree in Science or Engineer­ were thus killed and by what doctors?" ing of a recognised University or a Diploma in Engineering recognised by the "(3) If no such check is made, will he Institute of Engineers. Studies in Educa­ take steps in the interests of the public tion from the Technical Correspondence to have them regularly made and the School were designed as in-service train­ results published as is done in England ing courses to improve the professional and Wales?" skill of manual training and trade teachers." "(4) (a) How many deformed babies were born in Queensland as the result of "(2) The question of eligibility for doctors prescribing the drug, Thalidomide, admission to the Queensland Teachers to the mother during pregnancy and (b) Union is a matter for determination by has any action been taken or is any con­ the Union." templated against the doctors concerned?" "(3) See answer to Question (!)." Questions (22 NOVEMBER) Questions 1803

BUILDING ALLOTMENTS, DIMBULAH to be widely advertised for a period of at least three months in order that all Mr. GILMORE (Tablelands) asked the interested, no matter how distant, might Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation- apply for them?" "As there is an acute shortage of build· Hon. H. W. NOBLE (Yeronga) replied- ing allotments in the town of Dimbulah due to the rapid expansion of the tobacco "It was the practice of hospitals to industry, will he arrange to have no less advertise all vacancies, particularly of the than 100 building blocks made available status of consultant, in metropolitan immediately for public competition as any capital cities and the Medical Journal of lesser number would induce such competi­ Australia but experience has shown that tion as to create artificial and exorbitant applications come as a result of local land values in this area?" advertising or of the advertisement in the Medical Journal of Australia. Conse­ Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham) quently, the practice of advertising in other replied- capital cities has been discontinued. If " Action is in hand for the early survey no applications are received, the vacant at Dimbulah of forty-six (46) allotments position is then advertised in the British for sale for residential purposes and twelve Medical Journal. This is considered (12) for business purposes. The number sufficient." ' of allotments it is proposed to offer for sale is calculated to meet the present Bus FARES, INALA CO-ORDINATED SERVICE demand. Its determination was influenced by the expressed desire of Mareeba Shire Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) asked the Council !raving regard to its ability to Minister for Transport- provide service to land holders." "(1) Has approval been given to the Inala bus proprietor to increase his fares as DESTRUCTION OF FISH BY PRACTICE part of the co-ordinated bus service as BOMBING, RATTLESNAKE ISLAND from December 1?" Mr. TUCKER (Townsville North) asked "(2) Is the extent of these increases to the Treasurer and Minister for Housing- be two pence per single fare, four pence per return fare and one shilling and sixpence "(1) With reference to the conservation per weekly fare?" of our fish and his efforts in this direction, is he aware that countless thousands of "(3) Are the persons who use this means young mackerel are being killed or stunned of transport paying forty-three per centum around Rattlesnake Island by the R.A.A.F. more as railway fare than passengers using bombing of this area?" the co-ordinated service on the Sandgate line?" "(2) As this Island is in the centre of one of the main tidal streams from the "(4) In view of this could not this Reef where these young mackerel were increase have been absorbed by a reduction spawned, will he make representations to in the railway portion of the co-ordinated the Commonwealth authorities to have this fare?" practice bombing carried out elsewhere?" "(5) Is he prepared to reconsider this Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth) replied- increase in fares, which will be passed on to the public, causing further hardship to "(1 and 2) I am not aware of the people in the Inala area?" destruction described by the Honourable Member and am having the matter investi­ Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) replied- gated. However, I should add that follow· "(! to 5) Mr. M. J. Fitzgerald, pro­ ing enquiries in 1956, similar allegations prietor of the Inala Bus Service, recently of wholesale destruction of small fish by applied to the Transport Commissioner for bombing in this area were found to be permission to increase bus fares in relation groundless and fish mortality negligible. to his road operations between Inala and However, if there is any real substance in Darra, and the Commissioner, after a the allegation, you may rest assured that perusal of operational costs as submitted I will endeavour to have the position by Mr. Fitzgerald, approved on November remedied." 20, of increases in fares to come into operation on December 1, 1962. Linked with Mr. Fitzgerald's application to the HOSPITALS BOARD ADVERTISEMENTS FOR Transport Commissioner, was a similar MEDICAL CONSULTANTS request by Mr. Fitzgerald to the Railways Mr. TUCKER (Townsville North) asked Commissioner for permission to increase the Minister for Health and Home Affairs- the co-ordinated road-rail bus service fares by amounts similar to the increases in the "In the case where hospital boards road fares. In view of the fact that the advertise for consultants in any medical Transport Commissioner had granted Mr. sphere would he be prepared to issue Fitzgerald an increase in fares in relation instructions or if necessary alter the Act to the road portion of his operations, the to make it compulsory for such positions Railways Commissioner approved, on 1804 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

November 21, of such increases being the loan of lrorses from property owners added to the present co-ordinated fares, when required to carry out patrols. These but I emphasize to the Honourable people have proved most co-operative in Member, and more particularly to the this respect, thus showing their recognition residents of Inala, that tlre Railway and appreciation of the work being done Department did not seek, nor has it made by police in these areas to protect their any increase in that portion of the co-ord­ interests; and while this position continues inated fare which relates to the train to obtain at Coen, the provision of a journey. Mr. Fitzgerald, and not the four-wheel drive vehicle for that station Railway Department, will be the bene­ at the present time is not warranted." ficiary from the increased charges, and, therefore, I can see no justification for the Honourable Member's suggestion that BEDS AVAILABLE IN CHILD HEALTH BLOCK the Railway Department subsidise Mr. Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) asked the Minister Fitzgerald's operations. The rail fare to for Health and Home Affairs- Sandgate, referred to by the Honourable Member, like that to Darra, is the ordinary "(1) How many beds were available in fare charged, whether or not the passenger the children's ward at the Brisbane Hospital proceeds by co-ordinated service." which has now been replaced by the new wing, recently opened by him?" CONSTRUCTION OF VIRGINIA 0VERBRIDGE "(2) How many beds are available in the new wing?" Mr. MELLOY (Nudgee) asked the Minister for Public Works and Local Government- Hon. H. W. NOBLE (Yeronga) replied- "When is it anticipated that the Virginia "(!) The new Child Health Block pro­ overbridge will be completed and opened vides additional beds which do not replace for traffic?" any existing beds in the Brisbane Chil­ dren's Haspital." Hon. H. RICHTER (Somerset) replied- "(2) There are forty-eight beds available "My department is not responsible for in the new building." construction of the Virginia overbridge. The question should be directed to the Minister for Development, Mines and CoMMONWEALTH ScHoLARSHIPs, SENIOR Main Roads." STUDENTS Mr. DAVIES (Maryborough) asked the MOTOR TRANSPORT FOR POLICE AT COEN Minister for Education and Migration- Mr. ADAIR (Cook) asked the Minister for "In view of the statement by Dr. Watkin, Education and Migration- the Director-General of Education, in reference to the availability of Common­ "(!) With reference to my Question on wealth scholarships for competition by November 16 and his refusal to grant a Senior students that now there are more four-wheel-drive vehicle for the use of than four times the number of candidates police at Coen, is he aware that of the than scholarships, and his own statement eighteen horses provided for use by the that the number of applications this year police only five are fit for patrol duty and had increased by 619 since last year- the remainder are brumbies bought out of the pound at Mareeba?" (1) (a) How many such Common­ "(2) As the police at Coen now depend wealth schoiarsh1ps an: av~uiable iur on outside transport to carry out patrol competition by Senior students this year, duties, will he reconsider his previous (b) how many such scholarships were decision and grant a four-wheel-drive available during each year from 1955 vehicle to the area?" to 1961 and (c) how many applications have been received this year? Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis) replied- (2) Will he request the Commonwealth "(!) The present complement of eighteen Government to grant an increase in the horses at Coen comprises six which are number of scholarships to be made not fit for further service, six whiclr are available?" expected to build up in condition during the wet season to make them suitable for Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis) replied- some further service, and six which are "(1) (a) The Commonwealth Scholar­ in fair condition and which will be good ships Board has not advised a quota of sound troop horses after the wet season. Open Entrance Scholarships for 196~, but Fourteen of the horses referred to were it is expected that the quota Will be acquired in 1959 from a reputable horse approximately as for 1962, i.e., 550 places. breeder at Mareeba and were inspected (b) The number of Open Entrance Scholar­ and found to be suitable for use as troop ships available to Senior students sitting horses before being purchased." in the following years was:-1955, 421; "(2) As the question suggests, no diffi­ 1956, 420; 1957, 419; 1958, 417; 1959, culty has been experienced at Coen or in 416; 1960, 556; 1961, 550. (c) To date similar localities by police in obtaining 2,629 applications for Open Entrance Ministerial Statement [22 NOVEMBER] Ministerial Statement 1805

Scholarships for 1963 have been received. Labour Party member for South Brisbane The closing date for the receipt of applica­ (Mr. Colin Bennett) claimed last night his tions for scholarships is November 30, suspension for 24 hours in State Parliament 1962." yesterday was part of a Government plan to stop him airing allegations of misconduct by (2) The question of the quota of Com­ senior officers of the Police Force. monwealth scholarships is constantly under review and is fixed for Australia as a If the hon. member for South Brisbane whole with allocations to the States on made this statement-and I have not the proportional basis according to population." slightest reason to doubt the accuracy of the report-then I must say, first, that Mr. TEACHING FELLOWSHIPS Bennett's statement is completely untrue, and secondly, tlrat to any person conversant with Mr. DAVIES (Maryborough) asked the Parliamentary procedure and the background Minister for Education and Migration- circumstances, it is obviously untrue. "(1) How many teaching fellowships As regards my first statement, I would have been granted in the last five years in point out that the disturbance by Mr. Bennett Queensland?" and subsequent action of Mr. Speaker in "(2) During this period how many naming him came as a complete surprise to holders of teaching fellowships nave me. This is the first occasion for many years resigned?" past on which a member has been named by "(3) How many holders of teaching fel­ Mr. Speaker, and I had absolutely no reason lowships during the years mentioned have for expecting that any such incident would not completed their degree course and occur. As regards the obviousness of the (a) have been appointed to high school lack of truth in Mr. Bennett's statement, I staff and (b) have left the teaching would point out that as recently as yesterday service?" morning I made it abundantly clear by my answer to the question asked by the hon. Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis) replied- member for Tablelands not only that there lrad been adequate opportunity for educa­ "(1) The number of teaching fellowships tion and police matters to be discussed dur­ awarded in the last five years is as .C-11-·- -· 1f\.:"0 1r, -ff'\~C'o Af'\. -fA/A. An ing the Estimates debate but also that there LUHUV\'~.-17JO, .JO, l~J;:t, .t.tu; l~OV, -4-0; would be a further opportunity for police 1961, 28; 1962, 35. In each case, all matters to be discussed during the debate on qualified applicants were offered fellow­ the Supply resolutions and the Appropriation ships." Bill which is to take place on Tuesday next, "(2) Six (6) resigned during the course of 27 November. their fellowships and two (2) others who completed their degrees resigned to take up Mr. Maim: You are getting very thin­ positions at the University." skinned about it. "(3) Only those fellowship holders who Mr. Aikens interjected. entered the University in 1958 could have completed their degrees and diploma in Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The same prac­ education in the minimum time. Of the tice applies to ministerial statements and 36 granted fellowships in 1958, twenty-one personal statements as to questions and completed their degrees and are teaching answers. in secondary schools. Seven Ci) others are Mr. MUNRO: The hon. member for Bris­ teaching in secondary schools after courses bane interjected tlrat I am getting very thin­ at the Teachers' College and one (1) at skinned about it. To the contrary, I would primary school. Two (2) are on the staff say that the allegations of the hon. member of the University and five (5) have left the service." for South Brisbane were of a very serious nature. PAPERS Mr. Duggan: Why didn't you deal with them instead of holding on to the letter for The following papers were laid on the three months before you acknowledged it? table:- You had the letter for three months. Orders in Council under the Grammar Mr. Aikens interjected. Schools Acts, 1860 to 1962. Regulation under the Traffic Acts, 1949 to Mr. SPEAKER: Order! 1961. Mr. MUNRO: That interjection by t!Ie MINISTERIAL STATEMENT Leader of the Opposition is completely irrele­ vant. I am making a ministerial statement PRESS STATEMENT BY MEMBER ON in relation to the incident yesterday and to SUSPENSION the untruthful statement, if the Press report is correct, that has been made by a member Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong-Deputy of this Parliament. Premier) (11.29 a.m.), by leave: I wish to make a ministerial statement. It arises from To proceed with the statement-It fol­ the report headlined in this morning's lows from the above that not only is it "Courier-Mail" stating that the Australian clear t!Iat there was no Government plan 1806 Ministerial Statement [ASSEMBLY] Privilege

of the nature suggested by the hon. mem­ with Mr. Speaker and other Parliamentary ber for South Brisbane, but also that if there members in maintaining the status and the had been such a plan, it would llave been good name of our Parliamentary institution, completely nullified by my action in pro­ which should be something held dearly in the posing a suspension of only 24 hours. Mem­ hearts of each and every one of us. bers of this Parliament will, of course, be Government Members: Hear, hear! aware of the substance of Standing Order No. 124, which outlines the procedure fol­ lowing on the naming of a member by Mr. PRIVILEGE Speaker, that- SCOPE OF MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS "Mr. Speaker shall forthwith put the Question on a Motion being made, to be Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ decided without debate, amendment, or Leader of the Opposition) (11.36 a.m.): adjournment, that such Member or Mem­ Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege. bers be suspended from the service of the I should like some expression of opinion House for such time as mav be specified from you as to the extent to which a minis­ in tlre motion, not exceeding fourteen terial statement overrides your own pro­ days." nouncement regarding the invalidity of mem­ bers of Parliament discussing the suspension If there had been any desire to exclude of a member or the proposed suspension of a the hon. member for South Brisbane from member. the debate which is to take place on Tues­ day next, it would have been a simple mat­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I do not propose ter for a motion to have been made for his to allow this argument to be prosecuted. suspension from the service of the House The Deputy Premier is replying to a Press for a period of, say, seven days. statement by the hon. member who was sus­ J\1r. Burrows: Do you mean you are pended, and I think he has every right to capable of doing that? deal with it. Mr. MUNRO: For the information of the Mr. DUGGAN: I do not wish to clash hon. member for Port Curtis, I mention that with you on this matter Mr. Speaker, but an on the contrary I initiated the mildest action important point is involved. Unquestionably, wllich was considered consistent with the if the House gives approval for a ministerial background circumstances, and which statement, the Minister is entitled to make the ensured that the hon. member for South statement. All I am asking you is whether Brisbane would be free to take his place in such an opinion overrides the inability of the House at approximately 25 minutes past members to discuss your ruling that the sus­ 11 this morning. pension of a member cannot be debated in the House, and whether a ministerial state­ Government Members: Where is he? ment which purports to, and does indeed discuss, the merits or demerits of that sus­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! pension clashes with your ruling. That is Mr. MUNRO: I might observe that it is an important point to consider. I think it is now approximately 35 minutes past 11. My most important, because if you are to lay action ensured that there would be no down a rule which excludes-- obstacle to his participating in the debates Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I have not laid on Tuesday next. down the rules. The rules ::.re contained in As an amplification of my very clear the Standing Rules and Orders. I trust the statement yesterday in answer to the ques­ hon. member is not implying that it is one of tion of the hon. member for Tablelands, I my personal rules. now say to Mr. Bennett that, if lle desires to make any charges against the Police Force, Mr. DUGGAN: No, but you are the or against any particular member or mem­ interpreter and custodian of the rules of the bers of the Police Force, then I invite him House. I do not wish to get into a conflict to do so openly and without ambiguity, and with you on this matter, but I think it is «n without any further attempt to set up a important principle because members on this smoke-screen which could only have the side of the House are not permitted to make a effect of confusing the issue. statement. I think it is entirely improper that if, under the Standing Orders, members Finally, I would remind the hon. member of this House are prevented from discussing for South Brisbane, as a fellow member of th<> merits or demerits of a proposal to this Parliament, that this Country Party­ suspend a member of Parliament, under the Liberal Government is most earnest in its authority reposing in him a Minister of the determination to protect the rights of each Crown can make a ministerial statement and every member, but the rights of all mem­ wherein he may canvass the merits and bers can be effectively protected only if we demerits in a way in which we on this siae also maintain and uphold the orderly pro­ of the House are prevented from doing. I cedures of the House. In this spirit, I appeal object to that principal being established. to the hon. member for South Brisbane, as an elected member of this Parliament, to do Mr. SPEAKER: Order! In my opinion the his part in avoiding conduct that may be Minister was giving an answer to a scurrilous regarded as disorderly and in co-operating accusation against the Government and Privilege [22 NovEMBER] Land Bill 1807 ag_ainst the Chair that there was a con­ Mr. Dufficy: Are you giving us a ruling spiracy, or, in other words, that there was now? collusion between the Minister and myself in the suspension of Mr. Bennett. I believe the Mr. MUNRO: I certainly am not. I am Minister has every right to make a state­ just making it clear that I am availing ment giving the lie to the scurrilous state­ myself of the right of a Minister under the ment by the hon. member who was sus­ Standing Orders. pended. Mr. Dufficy: We will ask you for a ruling Mr. DUGGAN: The fact is that the in future. Government did nothing for three months. Mr. MUNRO: I availed myself of the Mr. SPEAKER: Order! right to make a ministerial statement, and I think the making of this ministerial state­ Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong-Deputy ment was very necessary because of the Premier) (11.38 a.m.): Mr. Speaker, I am seriousness of the allegations made by the sure that hon. members appreciate your hon. member for South Brisbane and because indulgence in permitting the Leader of the those allegations are completely untrue. Opposition to make a short statement, not­ withstanding that in doing so he was to som.; extent transgressing the Standing Orders. PUBLIC HOLIDAYS (ROYAL VISIT) BILL

Mr. DUGGAN: You want to make this THIRD READING House-- Bill, on motion of Mr. Dewar, read a Mr. SPEAKER: Order! third time. !VIr. MUNRO: I have said, Mr. Speaker, that I, and every other hon. member of this LANG PARK TRUST BILL House, appreciate your indulgence. I point out by way of clarification, and in support THIRD READING of what you have already said, that I have Bill, on motion of Mr. Fletcher, read not this morning in any way canvassed the a third time. merits or otherwise-- Mr. DUGGAN: I rise to a point of order, BRISBANE CITY COUNCIL (LANDS Mr. Speaker, and to ask you the interpre­ PURCHASE) BILL tation of a question of privilege. I want to know what authority the Minister has to THIRD READING pursue this matter in view of your ruling. Bill. on motion of Mr. Fletcher, read Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The Leader of the a third time. Opposition was given the opportunity to raise a question, to which I gave an answer, and I think the Minister is entitled to reply LAND BILL in some way. I ask the Minister to be brief. CoMMITTEE I do not propose to allow the matter to develop into an argument and from now on The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Taylor. I definitely will not allow discussion of it. Clayfield, in the chair.) Mr. MUNRO: I completely support you Clauses 1 to 3, both inclusive, as read, in your remarks, Mr. Speaker. I wish to make agreed to. it clear that I do not propose in any way to Clause 4-Repeals and savings. extend the discussion. There is a very sound principle of natural justice expressed broadly Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham) in the Latin phrase "audi alteram partem": (Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) in other words, we should hear both sides of (11.45 a.m.): Before moving the first of some a question. As the Leader of the Opposition 100 amendments, I should like to repeat what has taken it upon himself to discuss my I said when the Bill was introduced. Because ministerial statement and as, in the course of the magnitude of the task of consolidation of doing so, he made some statements which and the wide and important nature of the were incorrect, I think I owe it to the House ambit of the land laws, the Government was to make the position clear. It is only in this going to allow the measure to lie on the table sense-- of the House for at least one month. Actually it has lain on the table now for Mr. Duggan: What did I say that was longer than that. incorrect? The CHAIRMAN: Order! Will hon. Mr. MUNRO: What the Leader of the members please cease their conversations so Opposition said that was incorrect was that that the Minister may be heard, particularly the tenor of his remarks was that this is a by the "Hansard" staff? transgression of the Standing Orders in that I am now debating the question of the Mr. FLETCHER: Thank you, Mr. Taylor. suspension of the hon. member for South The idea of allowing the Bill to lie on the Brisbane. table for so long was to afford interested 1808 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill sections of the community full opportunity (b) in the case of the Land Appeal to study its contents and possibly to suggest Court, an appeal, improvements. In the intervening period may be instituted within the time and many representations have been made to in the manner prescribed by 'The Land me by individual Iandholders, graziers' Acts, 1910 to 1962,' as if those Acts associations, men who have a great deal to had not been repealed'." do with the land generaJly, members of Parliament, and even my own consolidation This deals with the time for lodging appeals. committee. Helpful suggestions have been The time existing at present is being sub­ made by them and misunderstandings have stituted for the shorter time provided in been cleared up. the Bill. At first it was decided to shorten the time for appeal; but on hearing represen­ The amendments now to be moved arise tations and thinking the matter over, I from consideration of the various represen­ decided to revert to the former period. This tations, and further consideration by the men clause, being in the nature of a saving clause who were given the task of consolidating the applying the present time limit to appeals land Jaws. As a result, I am happy to say lodged in the six weeks' period prior to that the initial confidence that I expressed the commencement of the operation of the at the introductory stage in the soundness of Act, is therefore not required. We do not the measure has been confirmed. Apart from have to change the time for appeal; it two or three changes of a policy nature, remains as it was in the original Act. the amendments are machinery in nature, or designed to give greater clarity of Mr. WAI.SH (Bundaberg) (11.51 a.m.): I expression. In other instances some rough thought that the Minister was probably getting edges have been smoothed and some omissions a bit ahead of himself. After all, this clause that inadvertently occurred have been is fairly lengthy and contains a number of rectified. sub-clauses and paragraphs, and merely because the Minister wishes to move an The major policy amendment is in the amendment on page 10 of the Bill, it does omission of subclause (2) of Clause 91. not follow that somebody else does not wish This is something in which the Leader of to discuss something on page 6. the Opposition might be interested. It was a new provision disqualifying persons holding I should like an explanation from the 2,560 acres under one or more-- Minister of Clause· 4 (2) (c), which says- "The tenures of all subsisting prickly­ Mr. W ALSH: I rise to a point of order. pear development grazing homesteads, You had put to Clause 3, Mr. Taylor, prickly-pear development grazing farms, and I thought that we were now discussing development grazing homesteads, develop­ Clause 4. The Minister is now referring ment grazing farms, perpetual lease prickly­ to Clause 91. If he has some amendment pear selections and perpetual lease prickly­ to that clause, I think it should be dealt pear development selections held under the with later. repealed Acts, shall be converted under the relevant provisions of Part IV." The CHAIRMAN: Order! I understand that at the beginning of the debate on this The CHAIRMAN: Order! When I called huge Bill the Minister is making a few the Minister, I had no knowledge that any observations on what preceded his intro­ hon. member wished to discuss part of the duction of the first amendment. I think clause on a page preceding that on which the that the Minister is now about to announce amendment was moved. As I was not aware the first amendment to the Bill. of that, I think it would be better if we dealt first with the Minister's amendment, Mr. FLETCHER: If in this debate the and I will then allow the hon. member to hon. member for Bundaberg sticks as closely go back and deal with that part of the clause as I will to admissible matter, I will be to which he has referred, which has no very happy and we will proceed much relation to the amendment. quicker. I was drawing attention, for the Mr. WAISH: I am prepared to do that, sake of the Opposition, to that particular Mr. Taylor, although I know that, if normal one in advance so that they may give some procedure were followed, I would not be thought to it for comment later. It is fairly allowed to discuss this part of the clause important. after the amendment had been dealt with. I move- The CHAIRMAN: Order! It was my fault "On page 10, lines 32 to 41, omit because I called the Minister first to deal sub-clause (15)- with the amendment. 'In respect of a determination made Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. at any time within six weeks prior to Mr. W ALSH (Bundaberg) (11.53 a.m.): All the date of commencement of this Act- I really require is information from the (a) in the case of the Court, an Minister. appeal or application for a rehearing; Mr. Fletcher: Which clause are you refer­ or ring to? Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1809

Mr. W ALSH: I am referring to Clause Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ 4 (2) (c) on page 6 of the Bill. Sub-paragraph Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (e) provides that subsisting stud leases and (1 1.57 a.m.): The official view is that so there forest grazing leases shall continue to be will be no hiatus and no necessity to impose held upon the terms, conditions and stipula­ a total embargo on the opening of land tions to which they were subject under the between the period of the passing and tl1~ repealed Acts. I know that later in the cor.1mencement of this Bill-is that what the Bill there is a clause providing for a limited hun. member is worrying about? number of tenures and that the number of Mr. Hilton: Yes. tenures will be reduced considerably when the provisions of the Bill come into effect. Mr. FLETCHER: All applications for However, I should like an explanation from land not dealt with at the commencement of the Minister as to whether the rights, terms this Bill will be deemed to have been made and conditions of the lessees under the parti­ under the analagous provisions of the Bill, cular headings set out in sub-paragraph (c) 2nd the rights are accordingly preserved. are to be taken away. Another part of the Mr. Hilton: If the provisions of the Act sub-clause says that the terms, conditions and are not, in all cases, analagous to the pro­ stipulations to which the lease was subject visions in the Bill, which provision will under the repealed Acts will continue and apply? this part of the sub-clause says that the tenures shall be converted under the relevant Mr. FLETCHER: Is it the hon. member's provisions. I wish to know whether the contention that they are not analagous? lessees will be at any disadvantage by being Mr. HI1ton: In the cases where they are compelled to convert their existing leases to another tenure. not analagous? Mr. FLETCHER: If he can prove to me ~~m. A. R. FL~TCHER (Cunningham­ that they are not analagous I will answer him, Mmister for Pubhc Lands and Irrigation) but it will have to be something I can more (11.55 a.m.): I am happy to be able to assure readily answer. At the moment my impression the h~m. member that they are protected in is that there is an analogy and that there all. nghts and . privileges they previously will not be any need for him to worry. en)oy~d. They Will then become just ordinary Mr. Duggan: If they are analagous, then I selectwns but they will not be losing any of presume they are not in conformity with the their conditions. I presume the hon. mem­ Pill. ber is thinking of the 1t per cent. they are paying as rent. Is that one of the matters Mr. FLETCHER: It is a tremendously he is thinking of? technical matter and if we are to get right down to every single sub-clause and sub­ Mr. Walsh: There would be numerous con­ heading to every sub:clause, it . will take a ditions of which I am not aware. great deal of time to give a concise and c?m­ plete technical answer to eve~y questi<;m. Mr. FLETCHER: All the conditions &re According to my officers there IS no maJor preserved. The matter will be referred to alteration at all, and nothing that could be later. in Clause 132 on page 124 of the Bill. construed as something to worry about. That clause will give the hon. member the These are matters of a technical nature that answers to his questions, but he has my have been painstakingly dealt with to avoid assurance that all rights are preserved. any of the sort of worries that the hon. member for Carnarvon apparently has in Hon. P. 1. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) mind. I think he can trust the men who (11.56 a.m.): I should like the Minister to have gone to a great deal ~f trouble to guard amplify, if possible, the provisions of sub­ against those sort of wornes and who have clause (3) (a) of Clause 4, on page 6 of the taken due care in the matter. Bill, which reads- Hon. P. 1. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) (11.59 "All applications for land made under a.m.): I am very disappointed at the Minis­ the repealed Acts prior to and pending at ter's response to my query. When he says the commencement of this Act shall be that tlrere are no major alterations in regard deemed to have been made under the to applications for land, I am inclined to analagous provisions of this Act." doubt his statement strongly. Are the provisions of the Act and the pro­ Whilst I am speaking on this particular visions of the Bill analagous in 1espect to point, I want to :voice J?Y protest at the mo~t certain applications for land, and if appli­ unfair manner m which members of this cations made under the provisions of the Committee have been treated. Although the Act have closed and the provisions in the Minister agreed to allow the Bill to remain Bill entirely alter the whole aspect of appli­ open for inspection for a considerable cations. will those applications called for period, this morning he circu!ated more than 1mder the Act be deemed to be cancelled and 100 amendments. No intelligent man-and will fresh applications be called for under I hope I am in that category-has sufficient the provisions of the Bill? time to properly assess them as he goes 1810 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

from clause to clause. Right at the outset the Bill through the Committee. The idea the Minister asks us to accept his assurance of allowing it to lie on the table for a that the responsible officers of his depart­ couple of months was surely an indication ment have done their best in the matter. of our attitude that we wanted everybody to Some of the amendments are very impor­ have a good look at it. tant; some of them cover technical matters, and in other cases they concern policy. As Mr. Walsh: I am glad to know that you the Minister has allowed the Bill to lie on are not going to steamroll us through. the table for such a long time, to be fair and consistent he should at least give hon. Mr. FLETCHER: It would be contrary to members the time to read and interpret the the spirit of allowing it to lie here for those amendments so that we can have an intelli­ months, and inviting everyone to say what gent and helpful discussion on the various he thought about it, if, after circulating a clauses. I frankly confess that that is not list of more than 100 amendments, we got possible for me in the present situation. the Bill through by sheer pressure tactics Unless we can have an intelligent discussion in one day. Hon. members have my assur­ on the amendments, we are simply wasting ance on that point. a lot of time in Committee today. According to my officers, the protest has nothing to do with the clause under con­ Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ sideration. It is not being amended. I Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) think the hon. member for Carnarvon would (12.1 p.m.): Perhaps I have a slight feeling have had time to consider whether he wanted of guilt about the circulation of the amend­ to amend Clause 4 (3) (a). The only major ments. I certainly thought I had made alteration-- quite sure that the Leader of the Queens­ land Labour Party would have had the Mr. Walsh: He does not want it amended. amendments as soon as I had them myself. At this stage he wants an explanation. That I know that the Parliamentary Draftsman is all he wants. and the Government Printer have heen very much put about to get everything done in Mr. FLETCHER: He has not been very time. To use a colloquialism, I have been explicit about what worries .him. He :v~nts "on their backs" for about 12 days to try to know what will happen 1f the prov1srons to get the amendments out. The Leader of are not analogous. As far as I know, there the Opposition has had his for only a few are no worries in that direction. There are days. I am not quite sure when he got not any cases which are not so unanalogous­ them. to use the wrong term-that need to be Mr. Duggan: Yesterday. worried about. The only major alteration will not apply until after the Act commences Mr. FLETCHER: I apologise for that. to operate. Surely that should reassure the There is substance in the argument that the hon. member. hon. gentleman should have had them earlier than that. Mr. Dufficy: An application made under the Act but not completed until after the I readily agree that some of the amend­ Bill becomes law, I take it, could then be ments are technical, and there are so many subject to the selective method of balloting. of them because it is such a tremendously Is that so? wide field. If there is something about any of them that hon. members do not under­ Mr. FLETCHER: Yes. Ballots after the stand, if it is possible under the Standing passage of the Bill will be by the selective Orders perhaps we could defer the considera­ method. tion of those clauses until later in the day, or to another day, for the purpose of allow­ Mr. Dufficy: That is so, despite the fact ing those hon. members who are interested that the application may have been made and are still worried to examine tlrem. I prior to this. am given to understand that it would be possible to do that. I am fair enough to Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (12.6 p.m.): The credit everyone here with a real desire hon. member for Carnarvon asked for some to understand the legislation. If there is a explanation about the applications provided clause that concerns any hon. members very for in Clauses 3 and 4. He wanted to know particularly and, on the spur of the moment, whether there would be applications that I am not able to tell them everything that would have different conditions applying to they are entitled to know, I shall be quite them. The hon. member for Carnarvon is happy to defer it until later in the day. In not in a position to say. He is not adminis­ any case, it is not going to be a short debate tering the department, so how can he know and-- conditions for the various types of leases at Mr. Hilton: Do you intend to go right this stage? I want the Minister to under­ through tonight? stand that it is not a matter of hon. mem­ bers saying whether they have trust or faith Mr. FLETCHER: Not unless we look like in the Parliamentary Draftsman, or any of getting through. I do not think it would be the officers who have assisted to draft this good enough for me to hope to steamroll legislation. We are sitting here examining Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1811 the legislation, and we are entitled to make Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (12.11 p.m.): these requests so that we may get a clear Did I understand the Minister to say that explanation of what is happening now. applicants in a ballot prior to the passing of the Bill will not be covered by the pro­ Clause 4 (6) says- visions of the Bill? Did I understand him "Any application pursuant to the pro­ to say that? visions of section 17 5B of the 'Land Acts, 1910 to 1962,' received by the Minister Mr. Fletcher: Yes: before the date of the commencement of this Act and not dealt with by the Gover­ Mr. DUFFICY: I assume the reason for nor in Council, shall be deemed to be an that is that, in the opening notification the application made pursuant to section two method by which the ballot has to be taken hundred and seven of this Act and shall would have to be stipulated. proceed or continue to be dealt with accordingly." Mr. Fletcher: That is right. That is a specific condition that any applica­ Mr. DUFFICY: And there would be no tion that may be made under that particular selective method existing until after the subsection before the passing of this Bill is passage of the Bill; is that the position? protected. All that the hon. member for Mr. Fletcher: Yes-until the opening Carnarvon wanted to know was whether the conditions to applications are to be pro­ notification can indicate that. That is right. tected in the same way. It is not a question of having trust, or mistrust, in the officers. The CHAmMAN: Are there any remain­ Our job as members of Parliament, with ing points before we come to the next clue regard to our ignorance in many of these amendment, aften page,. 10? matters, is to ask questions on what we think may be failings in the proposed legislation. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ That is how it has come about that the Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Minister today has at least 50 amendments, (12.12 p.m.): I move the following many of which are consequential. They have amendment- not come about because of discussions here, "On page 11, line 31, omit the figures­ but because of discussions with his officers '1960' after the Bill was prepared. I hope the and insert in lieu there'()f the figures- Minister does not misunderstand any ques­ tions that seek clarification of the Bill. '1962'." Since the introduction of the Bill the Acts Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Interpretation Acts have been amended and Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) they are now entitled the Acts Interpretation (12.8 p.m.): In reply to the query of the Acts, 1954 to 1962. This is consequential hon. member for Warrego, any present appli­ on that. cations will go ahead as under the present Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. method. What the hon. member for Bunda­ berg has said in correction of what I said, in Clause 4, as amended, agreed to. this case, is quite correct. The new selective Clause 5-Interpretation of terms-- method is to be applied after the passage of the Bill, by due notification, when calling Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ for applications. Applications made prior to Leader of the Opposition) (12.13 p.m.): With the passage of the Bill will proceed under your indulgence, Mr. Taylor, I should like the methods laid down now. I am sorry that to make a few very brief observations on I misled him. the attitude of the Opposition to this matter. It appeared to us that Clause 5 might enable The CHAffiMAN: I should like to make us, with a little co-operation from you, to an explanation. We are dealing with Clause save time later and I hope the explanation 4, which has been duly amended. I point out I give will be acceptable to you. to hon. members that when they rise to The first observation I want to make is speak their time is taken. The hon. mem­ that yesterday afternoon at our Caucus ber for Bundaberg has now used 20 minutes meeting we discussed the proposed amend­ of his time--15 minutes and five minutes­ ments and held the view that it was unfor­ and he has only five minutes left to speak tunate-indeed I could use the term "wrong" on the whole of the remaining portions of -that we should be faced with this position. Clause 4. So, if hon. members jump up and On the Minister's own admission, the Bill say a few sentences and then sit down, they has taken more than 12 months to compile may use up five mintes, or even 15 minutes, and, in the process, he has had the services of of their time and then they may not have highly -skilled specialists in his own depart­ any more time left. In their own interests, ment in arranging for the consolidation and I tell them that. On the remaining part of for the embodiment in the Bill of certain the clause, I do not want hon. members to new principles, and interested parties have misunderstand me if I tell them they have had the opportunity of examining the implica­ exhausted their time. tions of the Bill for four or five weeks. Now we have 23 pages of amendments, number­ Honourable Members: Hear, hear! ing 100, to be put before us and we are 1812 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill expected to resolve the implications of those having been Minister for Transport, I sup­ amendments in a matter of a few short pose I have come in contact with land mat­ hours. On the Minister's own admission, ters to a lesser extent than have most other also, he himself received the amendments hon. members. I have consequently never only a very short time ago and he was posed as an authority in that field, and for unaware of the full effect of them until he that reason do not intend now to pit my had the opportunity to peruse them. I wits against those of the Minister. I shall think he said in his first statement that he ask the hon. member for Warrego to be got them yesterday. He may have had them the chief spokesman for the Opposition, a little earlier than that. I certainly did not supported by the hon. members for Barcoo get mine until yesterday afternoon. If the and Port Curtis, and any other hon. members Minister is not conversant with the implica­ who may be interested in land matters. tions of these amendments only a few hours before they are introduced, that has the I think it is a matter for regret that result of placing people affected by them the amendments were not tabled for a completely in the hands of officers of the longer period to enable us to examine them department. Circumstances beyond his closely. I accept the Minister's assurance control prevent the Minister from realising that many are of a purely machinery nature, the full import of all these amendments but one cannot absorb the implications of because he has not had time to study them. them all in such a short space of time. I I am not criticising him for that. In the do not want to use the word "protest", ordinary course of events, a debate is although I think it is warranted, but such shortened if members do not understand a large number of amendments should not fully the amendments as no-one wants to have to be considered in so short a time. speak on something with which he is not The hon. members for Bundaberg and Car­ familiar. narvon, each of whom has held the port­ I think that this is a dangerous thing. No folio of Minister for Public Lands, are more matter how qualified and trustworthy depart­ conversant than I with the detailed opera­ mental officers are, the administration of tions of land administration, and possibly things as important as land matters should they will participate in the debate to a not be left to people in the Public Service. greater extent than will other hon. members. I have paid particularly high tributes for Because of their previous associations with many years to officers of the Department this important department, that is what one of Public Lands and I think that we are would expect. fortunate in having them, and I personally We regard this Bill as tremendously impor­ would prefer to see the implementation of tant, and we look with misgivings at the this legislation left in the hands of such surrendering of determination'S under our officers. Unhappily there is a departure land laws to outside bodies. We think that from that principle in this Bill and people such things as selective committees, free­ from outside will have the opportunity to holding provisions, and the injection of make decisions that we think are, or could capital that perhaps will result in absentee be, wrong. They have not the background landlordism developing in this State, are information and the method of approach important changes. The administration of to these matters possessed by permanent the Land Act has been in the hands of officers of the Public Service. officers of great ability and integrity, and we believe that there should be a minimum Mr. Ewan: Does this come in Clause 5? of interference with them on matters of Mr. DUGGAN: I am merely indicating this kind. the attitude of the Opposition to the situa­ I will content myself with saying at this tion. Clause 5 deals with the operation of stage that we will not move many amend­ the Act generally. I am making these ments, but we will oppose certain clauses observations now, so that I shall not have of the Bill that we think are inimical to to speak unnecessarily later. We do not the public interest. The spokesmen for the propose to submit any amendments unless, Opposition will be the gentlemen whom I during the course of the debate, it appears have named. I thank you, Mr. Taylor, for necessary to do so. We feel that this Bill your consideration. is largely a re-enactment of previous legis­ Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ lation. It includes new provisions, some of Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) which we will oppose and divide on if they (12.21 p.m.): The Opposition's point of view are not in accordance with Labour's tradi­ is quite reasonable and I thank the Leader tional attitude to land administration. of the Opposition for his remarks. I again At the introductory stage I canvassed in apologise for the very late delivery of the a general way the importance of the Land amendments. Act and its contribution to the development The Bill consolidates the Act and makes of the State, and I made some general obser­ very few changes in principles. If we act on vations that one normally expects from the the basis that tlre Leader of the Opposition, Leader of the Opposition. I did not claim, myself, and all other hon. members have to however, to be an authority on land mat­ go into great technical detail in considering ters. Representing a city constituency and the Bill, we will have to be lawyers and it Land Bill (22 NOVEMBER) Land Bill 1813 will take us a year to pass it. The men who and insert in lieu thereof the words- have worked on it for a year still have to ' "Noxious plants"-Prickly-pear, look back and correlate their thoughts on zamia (cycadaceous plants), desert poison particular parts of it. There is no way in bush (Gastrolobium grandiflorum), the world that members of this Committee African box thorn (Lycium ferrocissi­ can approach the Bill on the basis that they mum), bathurst burr (Xanthium must know the implications of every claus<> spinosum), galvanised burr (Bassia in it. My own attitude is that this is a birchii), noogoora burr (Xanthium consolidation, and much of what is contained pungens), crofton weed (Eupatorium in the Bill has been law for years and years. Adenophorum), mint weed (Salvia Can we not, then, consider it on the basis reflexa, weir vine (Ipomoea calobra), that it has been adopted down through the groundsel (Baccharis halimifolia), and years and has been not only our policy but any other plant which the Governor in Labour Party policy as well, and can we Council, by notification published in the not take much of it as being transplanted Gazette, declares to be a noxious plant into the Bill from Acts that have been for the purposes of this Act: the term accepted for years? Hon. members opposite includes the fruit, seeds, and any viable will probably confound me with their know­ part of any such plant;'." ledge of particular parts of the Bill because they have made a study of them. Anybody The amendment alters tlre spelling now can do that. But if they approach the Bill on contained in the Act. that basis, the Committee will take a very Mr. Walsb: Did the term "ferocious mum" long time to deal with it. get them into difficulties? The Leader of the Opposition has said that there are only a few principles that are Mr. FLETCHER: That could be so. objectionable from the Opposition's point of The botanical officers have now advised view. I do not mind in the least if us of the correct names of African box they really put their teeth into those. I thorn, noogoora burr, and weir vine, and it have said many times that I respect the is thought appropriate to include them in the policies and principles of the Opposition on Bill. The spelling of those names will now these matters, and I know that hon. members coincide with the names adopted by the opposite will take exception to certain C.S.I.R.O. I tlrink that is a wise precaution. things. As I said, I accept that and respect them for doing it. But if we are to have a Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (12.25 p.m.): In minute dissection of things that have been this rather lengthy Clause 5 there is inserted accepted down through the years, it will take a definition of "living area". us a very long time to go through the Bill. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Before the hon. In regard to the amendment that I wish member gets on to that, let us get rid of to move to Clause 5, would it be possible to this amendment. He can then return to take a large part of it as read? the subject of a living area and l will not Mr. Walsh: We have the amendment count this time against him. before us. Mr. Walsh: Is not the Minister's amend­ The CHAffiMAN: Order! As all hon. ment subsequent to the question of living members have a copy of the amendments area? before them, is it agreed that lengthy amend­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! The amend­ ments be taken as read? ment concerns only the definition of Honourable Members: Hear, hear! "Noxious plants". Mr. FLETCHER: I move the following Mr. Walsh: Living area is on page 14, amendment- which is prior to tlre paragraph the Minister "On page 15, lines 14 to 28, omit the seeks to amend. words- The CHAffiMAN: Order! I did not notice ' "Noxious plants"-Prickly-pear, that. I will allow the hon. member for zamia (cycadaceous plants), desert poison Warrego to proceed with his discussion on bush (Gastrolobium grandiflorum), living area. African box thorn (Lycium Lorridum), batlrurst burr (Xanthium spinosum), gal­ Mr. DUFFICY: I assumed that when a vanised burr (Bassia birchii), noogoora clause is sought ·to be amended it is under burr (Xanthium strumarium), crofton discussion and that I was entitled to speak weed (Eupatorium Adenophorum), mint on anything contained in it. In any case, weed (Salvia reflexa), weir vine my remarks on living area will be fairly (Ipomoea Calobra), groundsel (Baccharis brief, but I think it is an important matter halimifolia), and any other plant which and that it may be a little unwise to place the Governor in Council, by notification a definition of "living area" in a Land Act, published in the Gazette, declares to be because conditions vary so much. What a noxious plant for the purposes of might be, in terms of economic use of the this Act: the term includes the fruit, land, a living area, or an area as stated in seeds, and any viable part of any such the particular definition, sufficient to enable plant;' a man to maintain his wife and infant 1814 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

children in a reasonable standard of comfort I will be away for a month or five weeks. in one district of the State may perhaps not You carry on." In those circumstances he be a reasonable living area in another part, would have a map who was acquainted with as I shall proceed to explain. the area, a man who knew the business As a matter of fact, that particular defini­ and could effectively carry on that business, tion appears to have been lifted more or more particularly if he was assisted by the less completely out of the Industrial Con­ , single man whom I think should be employed. ciliation and Arbitration Act. I am not When the owner returned, the married man complaining about that, because what is good could go away on his holidays. To my enough for the worker should be good enough way of thinking that is a sensible and realistic for the man on the land, so far as it relates living area in the far western portion of to standard of living. I do not want to be the State. misunderstood in any way, but I want to If you are to have numerous small point out that in Western Queensland living farmers-that is what it amounts to--on areas are far more important than tltey are bare living areas in the remote portions of on the coast, because, as the Minister well the State, I do not know where you will knows, land on the coast has been settled, find employment for the young people of dealt with, and possibly finalised to a large Western Queensland. As everyone knows, extent by the Crown many years ago, and there are no secondary industries out there. the only large areas now becoming available There is not much likelihood of secondary to the Crown are situated in the more industries being established there in the near remote portions of the State. future. Consequently, the only avenue of Even those areas that will become avail­ employment is the pastoral industry. There able to the Crown in Western Queensland are certainly avenues of employment in the vary considerably. The brigalow land where small towns scattered throughout the West, there is a comparatively high rainfall varies but those towns exist there only because of from areas, say, 50 or 60 miles west of the pastoral industry. The whole of the Thargomindah, where it rains only at very employment in the area is provided by that rare intervals. To state it briefly, my opinion one industry. If you are to close completely of a living area in the more remote portions the avenues of pastoral employment-and of the State, or the less favoured portions they are closing rapidly-to young people climatically, would be an area sufficient not in Western Queensland, within a compara­ only to maintain the Crown tenant and his tively short time I do not know where you family in a reasonable standard of comfort, will get young, efficient station hands and, but to enable him to employ at least one more important still, where you will get married person in a reasonable standard of sufficient employees for the shearing industry. comfort, well housed, and possibly one other employee as well. That would be my idea Mr. Walsh: We will probably end up with of a living area in the more remote portions a lot of peasant farmers out there. of the State. That is why I say that in my opinion the defining of an area sufficient Mr. DUFFICY: Exactly. It may be all to maintain the tenant, his wife, and infant right to talk about economic living areas children in a reasonable standard of com­ on the coast or in the more favourable areas fort has no application at all to tlre condi­ of the State, but when you speak about tions that actually exist in Western Queens­ living areas in the western country you do land. I want to point out the difference not speak only about the Crown tenant between the conditions out there and the who is fortunate enough to hold a bit of conditions in the more favourable portions land. You also must take into consideration of the State. the available avenues of employment and Because of the harsh climate and the what is best for that area generally. I do remoteness of the place in which he lives, not wish to delay the Committee any further it is necessary for the man who has a on that point. property in the Far West to take his wife In conclusion, I think it is unwise to and family for a month or five weeks in the year to the seaside or to some other insert a definition of "living area" in any portion of the State with a more favourable Land Act, because land varies so much climate. It is impossible for him to walk from district to district in different parts into the nearest township and say to Jim of the State. I believe it is impossible to Smith standing on the corner, "I want you lay down a definition of a living area, and to go out and manage my property for a if it is applied to the fullest extent it will month or five weeks while I am away." That be detrimental in some parts of the State. would be a complete absurdity. He could not pick up a suitable man at short notice Mr. EWAN (Roma) (12.36 p.m.): It is in any of the townships that might be very pleasing to hear the hon. member for adjacent to his property. On the other Warrego agreeing with the provisions of hand, if that man had a married employee the Bill. I assure him that they are exactly permanently working on his property, the same provisions as are in the Act-- preferably with also a single man permanently employed, he could say to the married Mr. Dufficy: No they are not. That is employee, "I am going away for holidays. not right. Land Bill [22 NoVEMBER] Land Bill 1815

Mr. EWAN: I was going to continue and be some exceptions and some people may say: except that they have been shorn of have been hurt. I sincerely believe that several words that mean virtually nothing. it is the desire of the Government to have sympathetic administration of this legisla­ Mr. Dufficy: Was there anything about tion after a full consideration of all factors infant children in the Act? in the various areas concerning the provision Mr. EWAN: No, it stated that it would of a reasonable living for a man, his wife, provide a reasonable living for the selector. and his infant children, and his employees. The hon. member said that employees were I am sure that these principles and all other a natural corollary in the western areas, and matters will be fully considered. I assure I agree with him. the hon. member that many of us on the Government benches will demand this sympa­ Mr. Du:fficy: Do you disagree with me? thetic administration, which is so desirable. I am quite confident that it will be given. Mr. EWAN: No, I agree with the hon. member. If he reads the Bill he will see Mr. HART (Mt. Gravatt) (12.40 p.m.): that it says- I agree in general with the remarks of the "(c) Whether the land concerned is best hon. member for Warrego and the hon. suited for pastoral, agricultural, dairying, member for Roma. I agree with the hon. orchard or mixed farming purposes, as member for Roma that the matters that the case may be; have been troubling the hon. membe-r for Warrego are dealt with in the Bill. He has "(d) Occurence of variable seasons." said it is necessary to ensure that there is If the hon. member analyses paragraphs employment. It amounts to this: the selec­ (a), (b), (c), and (d), he will find that they tors and others should be able to employ contain the nucleus from which a determina­ people on their properties. That is neces­ tion can be made in all areas of the State sary; otherwise competent pastoral hands will under all conditions. I agree entirely with disappear from the West. It is quite clear the hon. member for Warrego that in deter­ that, with closer settlement, that has been mining a living area in the western parts happening. For instance, I do not think of the State, we must provide an income the town of Muttaburra has as many people for the employer, his wife, and his infant employed as in former times. Big stations children, and also, as a natural corollary, like Mt. Cornish have been cut up and for the employees who must be employed replaced with selectors, and there is not in these areas because of the many miles so much employment. The process of of fencing, the difficulties of improvement, cutting up large areas into smaller areas has the necessary attention to water facilities, gone too far. I remember many years ago and the great difficulties associated with the when Saltern Creek was cut up. Mr. depasturing of stock. To make a living McCormack, the then Premier, went round there must be employees, and it is highly and heard what people had to say and desirable, when the provisions are in the increased the areas, but I think they are Bill, for these matters to be considered. It still too small. In the Longreach area boils down to this: the success or other­ it is quite common for selectors' areas of wise of the Bill, and particularly the defini­ 20,000 acres to miss a storm and to suffer tion of a living area, will be determined by a drought that might last for several years. the sympathetic and understanding adminis­ So that area is too small. tration of the provisions. I agree with the hon. member for Warrego Mr. Dufficy: That is my point. that care must be taken to see that in the western areas the selections are not too small. Mr. EWAN: All those factors must be On the other hand, the definition of "Living considered. The hon. member for Warrego area" clearly covers that because it says-- dealt with some of them. I could con­ "Such an area of land as having regard tinue for at least an hour in outlining the to the following matters . . . will be disabilities that must be considered in the sufficient to enable a competent person area to which he referred, because I lived to derive from the working of the land, there for 34 years. I claim to know some­ according to the use for which the land thing of it. is best suited, an income adequate to ensure Mr. Aikens: Why did you pull out of it? a reasonable standard of living for himself, his wife and infant children, as well as Mr. EWAN: Because I was getting old to provide a reserve with which to meet and I found it was desirable to leave. Would adverse seasons and the cost of develop­ the hon. member deny me the right to ing and maintaining the land at a high sell out? I do not deny him the right to rate of production throughout ave'fage transfer himself to some other district to seasons." seek employment. If you have the area too small, it is quite As the Government, we trust, and in fact impossible to develop and maintain the land we have been assured-and furthermore, we at a high rate of production throughout every demand-that this legislation will be season. In very many seasons small areas administered on a sympathetic basis. By are as bare as the carpet on this floor for and large, since we have taken office that many miles. Sometimes, in a very bad policy has been adhered to. There may drought, the land is bare for 100 miles. 1816 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (12.43 p.m.): retain large aggregations of land that were After listening to Government members it held by squatters in the past. That is is quite obvious that their attitude to 'the bunkum. I do not think anyone wants that. Bill is one favouring large areas. The hon. I would be amazed to think that even this member for Mt. Gravatt thinks 20,000 acres Government, with its leaning towards the is not a living area in the Longreach district. big man, would do that. Anyone doing that He cited Saltern Creek, which is on a railway would be a tratior to his country. line. Mr. Burrows: The Act specifically provides Our whole approach to the Bill is that for it. we have not had any definite classification of our land through the State over the Mr. AIKENS: It does not. If the Bill years, and I think that might be the answer provided for it, or even if I though it did, to all these problems. I would be a vehement opponent of it, The hon. member for Mt. Gravatt said but it does nothing of the sort. The Bill that an area of 20,000 acres might miss a provides that there should be a reasonable storm. That could easily happen with basis on which living areas are to be 200,000 acres, or even 2,000,000 acres. But determined. I know that it will all depend those matters are not relevant. They are in the future on the people who are to brought in only in an attempt to justify large determine what is a living area. No-one areas. To use as a yardstick the areas in can look into their minds. We know that what we call the Channel Country and west anything that this Bill proposes in this regard of the Channel Country and apply them cannot bind any Minister in the future. to the areas that are relatively close to Let us hope that future Ministers will be civilisation and to amenities that are as good in this direction as have been some regarded as necessary for every man in all in the past, and the present one. parts of the State-- I really believe that more harm can be Mr. Hart: Don't you agree with the hon. done to the country, the selectors, and people member for \Varrego? looking for work in the backblocks, by cutting up land into areas that are slightly Mr. BURROWS: I do not agree with the too small than providing areas that are hon. member for Mt. Gravatt or with his slightly too large. It is far better to give Government's approach and its attitude of a man 5,000 acres more than one thinks handing out huge areas in the State to a very he needs than 5,000 acres less. limited number of land-holders in order that We get back to the old, simple statement they may farm them out to tenants and create the peasantry that we fear, as has and the argument put up by the hon. member been the experience with Communism in for Port Curtis that under this Bill all land every other country in the world where it in Queensland is to be aggregated and thrown presently exists. open in huge areas, until we return to the days when it was not uncommon for shearing Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (12.45 sheds to put through 100,000 or 120,000 p.m.): I was not going to enter the debate sheep, the boss of the board used to ride on this clause, but I want to draw attention round the board on a motor cycle, and the to the fact that round about 1924, 1925, blanc mange was brought up from the cook­ and 1926 large areas of land in the Julia house in a bullock wagon. The hon. member Creek district became available for closer for Port Curtis should remember the old settlement. The hon. member for Port Curtis saying that there is a vast difference between should know something about that land scratching your back and tearing it. because he worked on Eddington Station. Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (12.49 p.m.): The Government then made the colossal I agree with the hon. member for Warrego blunder of cutting that area up into selections of from 20,000 to 25,000 acres. that it is a pity that this definition has been placed in the Bill. It is true that there was Mr. Burrows: And less. a definition in the previous legislation, in 1927. I do not know why that should have Mr. AIKENS: Yes, and less, and it was been altered. Whichever way one looks at not long before the Government of the day it, it is so much verbiage. The people who realised its error and there had to be a will finally decide and advise the Minister reshuffle of the areas. Even today, when whether or not an area should be opened the selections average up to 35,000 acres, and made available for selection on the basis I still say that they are somewhat too small, that it is a living area are the officers of even though, with a run of reasonably good the Department of Public Lands. seasons and adequate fencing and watering and what have you, some selectors have Mr. Aikens: That is the most sensible managed to make a go of it. statement you have made this week. The hon. member for Warrego would be Mr. W ALSH: We all know the hon. much more competent to speak on this member. He is a great exhibitionist and matter than would be the hon. member for particularly likes playing to the galleTy when Port Curtis, who puts up the argument that children are up there, even to the extent of all that the Government wants to do is using obscenity at times. Land Bill (22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1817

Long before Labour Governments came I do not know why it was necessary to into power in Queensland, officers of the alter the earlier definition, because finally Department of Public Lands recommended the decision will be made on the reports to the Minister of the day-it might have received from the officers of the various been in the days of the Kidston Government departments. or the Denham Government-that land should be opened in, say, the Longreach area, Mr. HEWITT (Mackenzie) (12.54 p.m.): or some other area, on the basis of such­ It staggered me to hear the hon. member and-such an acreage. I have drawn attention for Port Curtis say that the areas are far in this Chamber on a number of occasions too generous. He has only to look at to the fact that agricultural farms, which areas near the electorate that he represents were suryeyed into blocks of 160 acres, were to know that there are many sub-standard opened m the Longreach district. Those blocks not far from it. Farmers in the Bar­ plans can still be seen in the Department of field area, namely, McKinnon, MacDonald, Public Lands. The advice was tendered to Halloran, and others, are trying to make a the Government of the day, and even if it living on so-called living areas but, in fact, was not a Labour Government, it would they have reached the stage where they are have acted in good faith. Areas in other badly in need of additional areas. parts of the State were opened only after Mr. Walsh: Additional areas had to be a careful investigation had been made and given in the Theodore district, too. reports had been sumbitted by the land ranger and the land commissioner for the Mr. HEWITT: The same applies in the district and finally considere·d by departmental Theodore area, and I am surprised at the heads. approach of the hon. member for Bunda­ The hon. member for Townsville South berg. On many occasions in the past he referred to the· Jttlia Creek area. It is and I have differed, but this is one matter true that away back in 1924-1925 land in that ha·s to be looked at from the point of that area was subdivided into blocks that view of the future of Queensland. These departmental officers considered would be sub-standard blocks that have eventuated a reasonable living area. The department have brought much hardship to many people h~d a!! the records before it-rainfall, and have put them in a different class from distance from communications, and so on. others in the district in which they live. However, there is one factor that the depart­ We must give them a good living area. We ment cannot foresee and over which it has must do that in any land-settlement scheme no control. I refer to the world market that we bring forward, otherwise this prob­ J?rices for .the products that are produced lem will be on our hands over and over m the partlcular areas, whether wool, meat, again. or something else. Well do I recall that in the Julia Creek area, long before I Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (12.56 p.m.): became Minister for Public Lands, it was I inform the hon. member for McKenzie necess~ry for. the Government of the day, that I was closely associated with the area followmg a big decline in the orice of wool he represents as part of it was in the Port to make provision for additional areas. Th~ Curtis electorate when I was first elected area experienced a severe drought in 1928- to this Parliament. One of the problems 1929, and then the price of wool droppe~ that I had to deal with related to approaches to 9d.. a lb. Selectors who purchased by settlers in that area to the Department properties there on the basis that £5 a head of Public Lands for permission to sell their was an economical price for sheep found additional areas at what were then regarded that the price had dropped to about £2 a as attractive prices. In quite a number of head. cases transactions in which selectors sold their additional areas separately, not their Mr. Aikens: Twenty-five shillings. aggregate areas, were frowned on and regarded with disapproval. In other words, Mr. WALSH: Less than £2. I am being they subdivided after they were given addi­ conservative. Many of them had to have tional areas; they sold the portion that was their affairs adjusted under the Farmers' added and continued to make a good living Assistance (Debts Adjustment) Act of 1935 on what was left. to enable them to carry on. Before we blame Governments and Ministers, let us remember Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ that officers of the department deal with Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (12.57 p.m.): I think we have been talking th.e n:atter first. . I should say that they a lot about something that does not mean Will mterpret this clause in future in a very much. For once I agree with the hon. way similar to that in which they interpreted member for Bundaberg. As a matter of sections in the past. However, let us hope fact, this is the second time, and it worries that they will be a bit more generous than me a little. But it does not matter what those who had that responsibility in the we put in this Bill; what really matters past and will make the areas a little larger is how it is administered. The definition so that we will not have to resort to granting of "Living area" that we have put down additional areas 10 or 15 miles away from is a very succinct and workman-like expres­ the block that has been selected. sion of a good general idea; it is not an 59 1818 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill expressiOn in acreage terms, which would This amendment follows representations on limit it and make it most difficult to adminis­ behalf of the Commonwealth. Under the ter. It is an expression in general terms present law the Governor in Council of that can be applied elastically to any part this State has no power to grant the Crown of this fair State of Queensland. What in right of the Commonwealth a deed of really matters is how we administer it. grant in fee-simple. Consequently, when the Commonwealth acquires freehold by agree­ I am very pleased to hear from the Oppo­ ment the title that it issues covers both sition some remarks that must be construed surface and mineral rights. In the course a·s supporting and approving our policy of of time if such land is transferred to a private extending areas, and of making quite sure individual the Commonwealth must re-convey that we do not deprive lessees of pastoral the mineral rights by separate deed back to properties of the opportunity to enjoy a the State. reasonable living area. We have been instru­ mental in enlarging and making far more The amendment authorises the Governor appropriate the areas that have been coming in Council to issue to the Commonwealth up since this Government came to office. Government, when acquiring land by agree­ I commend the amendment, which I have ment, a deed of grant in fee-simple. The already moved. mineral rights will then remain with the Crown in right of this State and there will Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. thus be no need for a complicated separate re-conveyance of such rights if the Common­ Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ wealth further deals with such acquired land. Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (2.15 p.m.): I move the following It is a simpler and much more business­ amendment- like approach. "On page 17, line 8, after the word Mr. WALS.H (Bundaberg) (2.20 p.m.): I 'lessee', insert the words- cannot commit myself to approving of this 'the Public Curator when authorised amendment unless I have a more elaborate to act under the provisions of Part IliA. explanation from the Minister. On the word­ or Part IV. of "The Public Curator ing of the amendment I am entitled to con­ Acts, 1915 to 1957,".'" strue that it is possible that, having regard The definition is enlarged to cover a bailiff to an agreement that might be entered into appointed by the Public Curator when he is between the Commonwealth and the State authorised under his Acts to control the in respect of the brigalow lands in the cen­ estate of a senile lessee or a criminal lessee. tral district, the Commonwealth will be given The present law makes no provision for such certain rights. The Commonwealth will cases and, although the occasions when the enter into an agreement with the State on Public Curator so acts may not be frequent, the expenditure of certain sums of money, it is felt upon submissions made by the but at this stage we have nothing before us Public Curator after perusing the Bill that to indicate that any special legislation will the Bill should be as comprehensive as be brought down for that purpose, or whether possible. this amendment will enable the Common­ Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. wealth to make further inroads on the ~overeign powers of the State. If that is so, Clause 5, as amended, agreed to. I think Parliament should be made aware Clause 6-Grants and leases- of it. If this amendment is to cover an agreement that may be the subject of legis­ Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ lation in the Commonwealth Parliament, and Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) in this Parliament, covering the brigalow (2.18 p.m.): I move the following areas, I do not think we should signify our amendment- approval, even though it may appear to be "On page 20, after line 28, insert the as innocent as the Minister makes out. We following new sub-clause- know that the practice is that once an agree­ '(6) The power under this Act of the ment between the State and the Common­ Governor in Council, in the name of wealth is signed, there is little or no power Her Majesty, to grant in fee-simple, for the State Parliament to amend it. If or demise for a term of years or in Parliament as a whole finds any complaint perpetuity any Crown land within with the agreement we will be told, "Both Quensland includes power to make such parties must agree." a grant or demise to the Commonwealth The Minister said something which again of any Crown land in Queensland acquired by the Commonwealth by aroused my suspicion in the explanation he agreement between the Commonwealth gave that this will vest in the Common­ and the Governor in Council (who is wealth the surface rights and the mineral hereby thereunto authorised) or between rights. The mineral rights, to an extent, are the Commonwealth and any person or mining leases, and the State reserves to the authority thereunto authorised by any Crown certain mineral rights. I want to other Act of the Parliament of this make it perfectly clear in this Assembly that State.'" the Commonwealth should not be given Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1819 rights that do not extend to the Crown's "The power under this Act of the Governor tenants within the State. Those are import­ in Council, in the name of Her Majesty, to ant points. grant in fee-simple, or demise for a term of years" any of the Crown lands of Queens­ On the wording of the amendment it may land. seem to be quite simple, but since it goes on to more or less cover any Crown land in Mr. Ewan interjected. Queensland acquired by the Commonwealth Government by agreement between the Mr. DUFFICY: The hon. member will Commonwealth and the Governor in Council, have his chance to speak later if he wants to. to my way of thinking that covers a very Subject to a satisfactory explanation from the wide field. It could cover any agreement. Minister, at this stage I am opposed to the Therefore, at this stage I am not prepared to amendment. support the amendment. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (2.23 p.m.): The Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) explanation given by the Minister up to the (2.27 p,m.): I assure the hon. member that present is completely inadequate and it there is not anything sinister or anything to demonstrates the truth of the statement by be worried about in this. The amendment the Leader of the Opposition this mornina refers only to lands that can be taken, and that it was unfortunate that the amendment~ are taken, by the Commonwealth, frorri were not made available at an earlier date individuals perhaps, under the Lands Acquisi­ to give Parliament, and particularly members tion Act. They take them in fee simple of the Opposition, an opportunity to study now. There is no question of our introduc­ the full ramifications of the amendments. At ing something new into the legislation in the th!s stag~ .I indicate that I am opposed to way of allowing the Commonwealth to take th1s provlS!on, not only because of the lack in fee simple. of information we have received, but also Mr. Dufficy: What lands have you in because of what it says. We find that the amendment says- mind? "The power under this Act of the Gover­ Mr. FLETCHER: Any lands that it nor in Council, in the name of Her requires for its own purposes. Majesty, to grant in fee-simple, or demise for a term of years or in perpetuity any Mr. Dufficy: Suppose it requires 10,000 Crown land within Queensland. acres in the brigalow belt; would this amend­ ment apply? Mr. Ewan: As agreed upon. Mr. FLETCHER: It has the right to take Mr. DUFFICY: Very well. I am not pre­ that now. It has the right to take any land pared to agree that the Governor in Council it requires, under its powers, and at the is entitled to grant any of the Crown lands moment it can take a fee-simple title, which, of Queensland to the Commonwealth we think unfortunately, also gives it a title Government, or to anybody else, in fee simple. to the minerals underneath the land. This will give the right to issue the Common­ Mr. Ewan: Would you agree to it in per­ wealth with a fee-simple title and at the same petuity? time reserve the mineral rights to ourselves, Mr. DUFFICY: I do not agree with what as we do normally. Surely that is an advan­ the amendment says, and what it says is tage. It is not a disadvantage. Previously, exactly what I read out-"in fee-simple". I in the event of the Commonwealth's owning cannot agree with that. It goes on further- land and divesting itself of that land to some­ body, it could then have to go through a com­ " ... or between the Commonwealth plicated severance-! think "re-conveyance" or. any person or authority thereunto auth­ is the term that was used-of the mineral onsed by any other Act of the Parliament rights to the State of Queensland; but under of this State." the proposed provision the mineral rights will At this stage we do not know what other stay with the State of Queensland and there Act the Parliament of the State has in mind will not be any need for a rather complicated Up to this stage the Minister has not indi ~ system of getting rid of that land to private cated whether the Government has in mind individuals. any other Act which is bound up with this provision. :M:r. Dufficy: Did I understand you to say Let me say at this stage that I have not that the Commonwealth Government has a had the advantage of the help of the experts perfect right at the present time to acquire who are assisting the Minister, and to whom in fee simple 10,000 acres under a brigalow he has had to move closer for further assist­ lease? ance. I do not blame him for that, but J say I have not had that advantage. Nor did Mr. FLETCHER: No, of course not. I have the advantage of having these amend­ Mr. Dufficy: You did say so. ments in my hand until the last few hours. I have not had an opportunity to investi­ Mr. FLETCHER: If they could show that gate fully the possible ramifications of this they wanted it for some special proven amendment but, on the face of it, I oppose purpose, I suppose they could, but that is a 1820 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill fantastic sort of claim. There is no ques­ binding between the State and the Common­ tion of its relating to the brigalow settle­ wealth. What chance has any Opposition of ment. It is not a matter of interfering with having an amendment accepted after there what the Commonwealth is entitled to do has been agreement between the State and un~er its powers now. It is certainly not the Commonwealth? Parliament is left out de~tgned to be used with respect to the of it completely. bngalow lands settlement. That has nothin<> to do with it. In fact, I invite the hon~ Despite the Minister's saying that mineral member to load his guns and keep them rights and so on are to be protected for the loaded till the Bill relating to the agreement State, that is not written into this amend­ between the Commonwealth and the State for ment. If the Minister writes in that the the settlement of the brigalow lands is State's mineral rights are protected in any brought down. He will then aet his infor­ agreement entered into with the Common­ mation right from the ~ost reliable wealth, I shall be quite happy about that authority. The terms of that agreement are and content to Jet the Commonwealttr Gov­ ernment exercise its power under the Com­ still being drawn up, and I cannot say now monwealth Constitution to resume land ex.actly what they will be. There is cer­ t~.l!!!y !!0 i!!!e"!!!i0!1 nf h-:~u;·t·H"" th;£' ..,...... u~,.,; ...... , accordingly. applied to that agr.ee;e;;L · "'" """ .-· ~ · '"·~-- Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) ~r. WALS~. (Bundaberg) (2.31 p.m.): (2.35 p.m.): I find it difficult to follow the ~hils! the . Mmtster may have very good argument of the hon. member for Bundaberg. ~ntentwns .wtth t.his amendment, what he says Under the present system. the Common­ 1s not wn tten m to it. It is perfectly true that under tlre Commonwealth Constitution wealth Government has the power to take the Commonwealth has power to resume any lands in Queensland. land o!he-r than park land. Let that be noted; Mr. Walsh: Well, why bring this amend­ there .ts no . authority to resume park land. ment in? T.hat 1~ of Jnterest when we remember the d1scuss1on yesterday on the Bill concerning Mr. FLETCHER: Because when the Com­ the sale of land to the Brisbane City Council. monwealth Government took land under the !he Commonwealth has its limitations in old system, it took it under a fee-simple Jespect. of certam land. Why write this into title that gave it mineral rights, too. We leg1slatwn when the Commonwealth Gov­ could not stop it. because that is what the ~rnmer:t . has const.itutional power to go Act provided. This will protect our mineral about Jt m the way m wh1ch it wishes? As a rights. We will be able to issue the Com­ matter of fact, it exercises those pow~rs. monwealth Government with a fee-simple ! know t~a~ there is expected to be some title and reserve the mineral rights. That is de,ree of ha1son and co-operation between what we have done, whether or not the 9overnrr:ents on matters of a national nature hon. member can read that into it. Under 1rrespectJve of the politics of the Govern: the old system, the Commonwealth Govern­ ments. I .can well remember during the war ment took minerals that it did not want­ years, wh1c.h was the time in whiclr I held at least, I do not think it wanted them­ the portfoho of Minister for Public Lands and there was a complicated system of that many property officers of the Common: divesting itself of the mineral rights when it wealth Government went resumption-happy divested itself of the land. The amendment and wanted to resume land here, there, and provides that we will not give it the mineral everywhere. I well remember that the rights when it takes the land. It is as simple Labour_ Government of the day persistently as that. drew the attention of the Commonwealth Gove.rnment to the fact that unless the land Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (2.36 p.m.): I that .1t was resuming was to be used for the am not going to let the Minister get away specific purpose for which it was resumed with that. There is nothing whatever in the it should revert to the State. If the Ministe; amendment protecting the Crown's mineral cares to refer to the files concerning the rights in this State. The Minister can make Mackay aerodrome and a few other places in all the explanations he wishes on the advice the State, ~e will find that the State Govern­ of his advisers. If he had put it in black ment cons1~tently took the stand that it and white that "any agreement between the was not gomg to allow the Commonwealth Commonwealth and the State shall have the Government to resume large areas of Crown effect of protecting the mineral rights of the land. and tlren, when they were no longer State under its own laws", I have already reqmred, pass .them over in fee simple to said that I would not complain. I do not sorr:e other pnvate landholders against the know why the Minister finds it difficult to policy of the Government of the day. follow what I am saying. I have already pointed out that the Commonwealth has the Mr. Ewan: It can be approved by agree­ powers; I have already pointed out the limita­ ment. tions imposed on the Commonwealth in Mr. WALSH: Of course it can be. As I making resumptions. For example, it could have already pointed out, when an agree­ not resume the Botanic Gardens because that men~ comes here incorporated in an Act of is park land. That is specifically provided Parliament as a schedule to the Act, it is for. .A Land Bill (22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1821

Mr. Hart: Where? NoEs, 23 Mr. WALSH: The hon. member should Mr. Adair Mr. Houston , Bennett .. Mann have a look for himself. Bromley Marsdcn Burrows Newton Mr. Hart: I have had a look. There is Davies O'Donnell nothing about powers of acquisition. Dean Sherrington Diplock Thackeray Donald Walsh Mr. W ALSH: The hon. member has a lot Dufficy to catch up on. He can argue it out with the Duggan Gunn Tellers: hon. member for South Brisbane, who will Hanlon Mr. Inch teach him a few things. Hi! ton , Tucker Mr. Hart: Apparently he has been teaching PAIRS you. Mr. Nicklin Mr. Byrne ,, Rae .. Wallace The CHAIRMAN: Order! , Lonergan ,, Graham , Carey , Baxter Mr. W ALSH: I know it has been held over .. Pilbeam .• Melloy the years that the Commonwealth has full .. Campbell ., Lloyd constitutional powers, so I do not see why Resolved in the affirmative. the Minister has moved an amendment giving power to the State to enter into an agreement Clause 6, as amended, agreed to. with the Commonwealth. The Common­ Clauses 7 to 10, both inclusive, as read, wealth Government can go over the head of agreed to. the State and resume whatever land it wishes, subject, of course, to the limitations that I Clause !!-Waiver of breach of condition have mentioned. in grant- Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (2.38 p.m.): I do not think I can be more (2.45 p.m.): I move the following explicit. Our power to issue a title in fee amendment- simple will be subject to a reservation of "On page 24, line 35, omit the word­ mineral rights to the State. 'avoiding' Mr. Walsh: Where does the amendment say and insert in lieu thereof the word- that? 'voiding' ." The word "avoiding" has inadvertently Mr. FLETCHER: If the hon. member appeared in the analogous section since looks at Clause 6 of Division !-General 1910. This is an opportunity to substitute Provisions, and reads down, he will see that the word that is in more common usage. our power to issue a title in fee simple is subject to the reservation of mineral rights to Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. the State. Clause 11, as amended, agreed to. Mr. Walsh: To the Commonwealth, or to Clauses 12 and 13, as read, agreed to. the individual? Clause 14-0bligation to perform con- Mr. FLETCHER: To the State. The ditions of leases and licences- mineral rights are reserved to the State. Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) Mr. Walsh: On a lease to an individual? (2.47 p.m.): The provisions of Clause 14 Mr. FLETCHER: They are reserved to the are somewhat peculiar to me so far as the State in the deed. time factor is concerned. Sub-clause (2) (a) provides- Question-That the words proposed to be "The Minister, with the approval of the added to Clause 6 (Mr. Fletcher's amend­ Governor in Council and the consent of ment) be so added-put; and the Committee the lessee, may delete or vary or amend divided- any developmental or improvement con­ AYES, 32 dition (including the condition of fencing or other improvement) of a lease, but N1r. Armstrong Mr. Knox Beardmore , Low (except as provided by paragraph (c) of ,. Bjelke-Petersen , Munro this subsection) the Minister shall not make Cam m Dr. Noble .. Chalk Mr. Pizzey any such variation or amendment affecting Dr. Delamothe Ramsden the time within which any such condition Mr. Evans , Richter of a lease is to be performed whether in Ewan Row Fletcher , Sullivan whole or in part." Gaven Tooth Gilmore , Wharton Sub-clause (2) (c) provides- Harrison , Windsor "The Minister, as he deems fit, may Hart Herbert extend the time within which any develop­ , Hewitt Tellers: mental or improvement condition (including ,. Hiley .• Hodges Mr. Houghton the condition of fencing or other improve­ , Hooper , Hughes ment) of the lease or licence may be 1822 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

performed, or with the consent of the the particular point that concerns the hon. licensee, may delete, vary or amend any member with regard to the difference he developmental or improvement condition alleges between one and the other? attached to the license." Mr. Bennett interjected. On the one hand there is a very emphatic provision forbidding the Minister to make The CHAIRMAN: Order! any variation affecting the time factor in the carrying out of the obligations set out Mr. FLETCHER: It amounts to this: the in the lease, but on the other hand in Minister may not shorten the time of per­ sub-clause 2 (c), without any restriction formance but he may extend it if he is whatever, the Minister is empowered, as he given good and sufficient reason to believe thinks fit, to make any extension of time that there are sound or compassionate that he desires for the carrying out of the grounds for thinking that the extension is conditions or the obligations of any lease warranted. or licence. I can appreciate the fact that Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) (2.52 the Minister should be given some free hand p.m.): In reply to the Minister, under the to exercise ministerial authority as far as terms of the lease the Minister cannot the licence is concerned, but on the one hand shorten the time in respect of the obliga­ the clause emphatically forbids the Minister tions imposed by the lease. and on the other hand he is given an open cheque to make an extension of time. I Mr. Fletcher: That is right. should like the Minister to amplify that particular aspect of the time factor associated Mr. HILTON: He cannot do that, and with the fulfilling of the obligations contained we know it. There is a covenant between in any lease. the Crown and the lessee in this respect so the question of shortening the time does Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ not arise. As I mentioned, in sub-clause Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (2) (a), the Minister is prohibited absolutely (2.50 p.m.): The new provisions declaring from making any variation or amendment in ministerial powers to vary and amend the the time within which any such condition conditions of leases or licences and to extend of a lease has to be performed. Under the time-is that what the hon. gentleman is (2) (c) the Minister, as he deems fit, may worrying about? extend the time in respect of any of the conditions of any lea·se or licence. To my Mr. Hllton: Yes. mind it seems rather foolish. If a lessee Mr. FLETCHER: Heretofore there was wants to know where he stands in this no expressed legal authority for such cases matter, he will find that on the one hand and it was felt appropriate in the consolida­ the legislation says that the Minister shall tion to give statutory recognition to the not make any variation of the time in which existing practices-the ones that are exer­ he is supposed to carry out his cised administratively now. Clause 14 (1) obligatiom-- makes it obligatory on lessees and licensees Mr. Hart: You know what it means. to perform conditions of the lease or licence on penalty of forfeiture or determination. Mr. HILTON: It means what it says. Clause 14 (2) (a), which is the one the Mr. Hart: It means that he cannot shorten hon. member is referring to, says that sub­ it. ject to obtaining the consent of the lessee and the approval of the Governor in Council, Mr. HILTON: A variation in time can the Minister may delete, or vary, or amend, be a lengthening or a shortening. any developmental or improvement condi­ Mr. Hart: The lot has to be taken tion attached to a lease. It would be together. regarded as a breach of contract if the les·see's consent in this regard was not Mr. HILTON: On the one hand it means obtained, and as the lease was issued under he cannot make any variation. The word the hand of the Governor in Council his "shall" is used. approval to any variation, etc., of the terms thereof should also be obtained. That is Mr. Hart interjected. a statutory condition. Mr. HILTON: In (2) (c) the Minister is To remove any suggestion of if!!proper given an absolutely free hand, if he sees fit, practice, due publicity must be g1ven to to extend the time factor right to the deter­ any deletion, variation, or amendment, and mination of the lease. It is ridiculous to upon publication of the variation or amend­ have absolute discretion on the one hand ment in the Gazette the Registrar of Deal­ and absolute prohibition on the other. ings is required to make an appropriate entry thereof upon the instrument of lease Mr. Hart: It is not an absolute pro­ and in the appropriate register. This means hibition. that the Minister cannot shorten the period of performance, but he may extend it. He Mr. HILTON: It provides for an excep­ cannot shorten it. At the moment, extension tion. Where the exception occurs he is of time is given administratively. What is given an absolutely free hand, and we know Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1823 that he cannot alter the terms of the lease What I would like the Minister to explain without the approval of the Governor in is this: under the first paragraph it appears Council and the consent of the lessee. that, say, Bill Ericson out in Charleville, Mr. Fletcher: I think you have not read who wishes to acquire a 16-perch allotment, the whole lot together. must in the first place obtain a permit under the Aliens Act before he can acquire a Mr. HILTON: I am sure that I have. perpetual lease or any other form of lease Why put the concluding part of paragraph (a) of that allotment on which to build his home; of sub-clause (2) in at all? Without it but an alien who may not even be resident we should know where we stood. in Australia could purchase an estate in fee Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (2.56 p.m.): I simple up to possibly 10,000 acres. have had a look at this clause, too, and Mr. Fletcher: He can now. it seems to me that sub-clause (2) (a) prevents the Minister from shortening in any way Mr. DUFFICY: I do not know whether the time in which developmental conditions he can or cannot. If he can, I am saying can be carried out or altering them in any that it is comple-tely wrong. I cannot see any way other than subject to "paragraph (c) reason why an alien who may have resided of this subsection". Paragraph (c) provides- for five or six years in this State and who "The Minister, as he deems fit, may wishes to acquire a lease of a 32 perch extend the time within which any develop­ allotment on which to build a home must mental or improvement condition (including first obtain a permit under the Aliens Act. the condition of fencing or other improve­ If my interpre-tation of the Act is correct, ment) of the lease or license may be Khrushchev could purchase 10,000 acres of performed". estate in fee simple in this country without I may not be right but it seems to me even being a resident of Australia. If that that the only alteration in the conditions is so, I say that it is wrong. I should like that the Minister may make is to extend the Minister to explain that point. the time, not to shorten it. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Mr. Fletcher: That is right. Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) It Mr. DUFFICY: If that is so, I am happy (3.2 p.m.): is true that alie-ns can hold about it. freehold land and cannot hold leasehold. That is not changed. The law with regard Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ to the necessity for aliens-- Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (2.58 p.m.): That is quite so. If the hon. Mr. Dufficy: What law? member for Carnarvon had read the whole Mr. FLETCHER: I suppose it is the Aliens thing, he would have seen that sub-clause Act. I think the hon. member has mentioned (2) (a) provides that the Minister shall not that the· Jaw with regard to the holding of make any variation or amendment except freehold land was changed in this respect. as prescribed by "paragraph (c) of this sub­ I think that that was done to conform with the section" and that (c) provides that the United Nations Charter. Hon. members who Minister, as he deems fit, may extend the are legal men may know something about time. So, as I said before, the Minister this matter, as it is really one for a lawyer. may not shorten but he can extend. One l am given to understand that it was complements the other. I think it is clear. incumbent on us to extend that particular Clause 14, as read, agreed to. right to aliens. Clause 15, as read, agreed to. Mr. Hanlon: Do you not acknowledge that Clause 16---Dealings by aliens- what the hon. member for Warrego men­ Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (2.59 p.m.): I tioned is anomalous? should like some explanation from the Minister on this matter. My interpretation Mr. FLETCHER: It sounds a little odd, of the clause could be completely wrong. but that is how it has been right through The first paragraph reads- the years. I think that probably with free­ "An alien shall not be qualified to hold land being a comparatively small area apply for, acquire, or hold land under in Queensland and leasehold land a much any tenure under this Act, including under larger area-- any license or under a demise, pursuant to section one hundred and seventy-six of Mr. Dufficy: But the reverse is the fact. this Act, unless he has first obtained a I quoted a 32-perch allotme·nt in Charleville. permit under 'The Alien Acts, 1867 to No alien can acquire that on which to build 1958', entitling him to hold chattels real his home unless he gets a permit, but he in Queensland." can get 10,000 acres of freehold without I have no complaint with that part of the even being a resident of the· country. clause, but the final paragraph provides- Mr. FLETCHER: If be could find 10,000 "This section does not apply to an alien acres of freehold. who purchases from the Crown any land made available for sale for an estate in Mr. Dufficy: But that is what is provided fee-simple." under this Bill. 1824 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Mr. FLETCHER: That has not been capacities as if he or she were a British changed. subject under and within the meaning of the Nationality Act, 1920-1946, of the Mr. Dufficy: I am not concerned about Commonwealth (or of any Act passed that, but you stated that one was a large in amendment thereof or substitution area and one was small, but the reverse therefor) excepting that an alien shall is in fact the position. not be entitled under this paragraph to take real property or chattels real unless Mr. FLETCHER: No, I did not mean that. he has resided in Queensland for a continuous period of at least six months Mr. Dufficy: The leasehold area is very immediately prior to taking the same, small and the freehold area very large. and the Governor in Council has by Order in Council approved of his taking Mr. FLETCHER: I did not mean to say the same.'" that. I meant that as freehold land is only a small proportion of the total area of So the two prerequisites are, residence for Queensland, greater concern is felt over the a period of at least six months and approval possible infiltration of aliens into the very by the Governor in Council by Order in large areas of leasehold land. Council. For the information of legal men who Mr. Fletcher: What Act is that? unders~and this terminology, leasehold land Mr. Bennea: That is the 1948 amend­ compnses chattels real and not realty. Free­ ment to the Aliens Act. h<_Jld land (r.e~lty) may be held by aliens Without obtamm.g a permit, but in regard Mr. Fletcher: There is one about 10 years to . personalty (mcluding chattels real) the later than that. That is 10 years out of Aliens ~et requires the alien to first acquire date. a perm1t. Mr. Bennett: I should like to hear what !his clause clarifies the application of the the 1958 amendment was. Ahens Act to land held under this Bill. Gen~rally speaking, a permit must first be The CHAIRMAN: Order! If the hon. obtamed by al! ali:"n before he can acquire member rises, lre is making a second speech. land. under th1s Bill. The only exceptions ~re m ~he cases _of outright purchase of land Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (3.7 p.m.): The m fe.e ~1mple or 1ts purchase on terms without simple question that I asked has not been obtam~ng a lease pursuant to Clause 176 of answered to my satisfaction. I appreciate the B1ll. what the hon. member for South Brisbane just read out; but, not being a legal man, I . This merely continues and clarifies what could not follow all of it. I am not discuss­ 1s the law at the moment. ing the Aliens Act; I am discussing the Land Bill. I am discussing Clause 16 of the Mr. B~NNETT (South Brisbane) (3.5 p.m.): Bill, which to my mind clearly states that In _relatwn to what the Minister has been any alien who wants to acquire leasehold saym~, I think it might be appropriate to land in Queensland, even if it is only a mentwn that Section 4 of the 1948 amend­ 16-perch allotment, and who is residing in men~ to the Aliens Act, which amended the State must first obtain a permit under Secli.on 3 of the Aliens Act of 1867 is the Aliens Act. On the other hand, an alien applicable. It reads- ' who has never resided in the State-I men­ "The following paragraph is added to tioned Khrushchev earlier-can acquire land the said section, namely:- in accordance with the second paragraph of Clause 16, which states clearly- . '.Moreover, notwithstanding any pro­ VI~JOn o~ any other Act or law, every "This section does not aoply to an ali<:n alien bemg the citizen or subject- who purchases from the Crown any land (a) Of the United States of America· made available for sale for an estate in or ' fee-simple." (b) Of any other friendly State If the Crown made available for sale a named by the Governor in Council parcel of land of 10,000 acres-that is the by Proclamation published in the limit provided under the Bill-any alien who Gazette (the Governor in Council had never resided in Queensland could pur­ being hereby authorised to make and chase it in fee simple, and I assume that any publish as aforesaid from time to company could do the same. time such Proclamations for the pur­ poses of this section as he deems fit), Mr. Ewan interjected. shall and may take and hold by Mr. DUFFICY: Get up on your feet and purchase, gift, bequest, representation, or argue, if you want to. Please do not inter­ otherwise every species of property, real ject. If you have any valuable information, and personal, movable and immovable, get up and give it to us. I am looking for as fully and effectually to all intents information. and purposes and with the same rights, remedies, exemptions, privileges, and The CHAIRMAN: Order! Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1825

Mr. DUFFICY: Through you, Mr. Taylor, Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (3.13 p.m.): I suggest that if hon. members opposite who It is all right for the Minister to say that claim to be experts on land matters have any this was taken from the 1952 Act. There valuable information to give the Committee was no provision in the 1952 Act for con­ on this particular subject, they should not trolling freehold land purchased from the interrupt or interject; they should rise and Crown. This clause reads, " ... an alien give us the information. who purchases from the Crown any land To carry on with what I was saying, it made available for sale for an estate in fee­ appears quite clear that that can be done simple." under thi·s provision and I want to know where the justice and logic of it comes in Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (3.14 p.m.): I when an alien who might have worked in think the Minister would be wise at this Charleville for the past five or six years, stage to adjourn the debate on this Bill but who has not been naturalised, wishes to enable him, and hon. members generally, to acquire a 16-perch or a 32-perch allot­ to get a clear explanation of the effect of ment of, say, perpetual town lease on which all these amendments that are coming down. to build his home but cannot unless he first Mr. Fletcher: What is not clear as it is? obtains a permit under the Aliens Act. I want to know why there should be dis­ Mr. WALSH: The particular point that crimination between a person who purchases the hon. member for Warrego made that freehold and one who wishes to acquire there is no reference in the marginal note leasehold. to this clause. An analysis of the Bill shows references appearing against new sections to Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ the particular Acts from which they come, Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) such as 1910 and so on. In addition, I (3.11 p.m.): I suggest that the hon. member have already said that even if those things answer his own question. This is simply are shown in the margin and although the accepting the 1952 Act provision. It merely principle that may be incorporated in the makes the provisions of that Act apply, and particular clause may have some relation­ if anybody should be making excuses for this ship to the original section of the relevant being in the 1952 Act, it is certainly not I. Act, that does not mean that some new Mr. Dufficy: I am not asking for excuses; matter has not been brought into it. I am asking for information and reasons. I notice that the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt is back again. I thought he was Mr. FLETCHER: The hon. member has going to enter into this debate with a very the information now. This accepts the pro­ clear explanation from the legal point of vision of the 1952 Act, which was intro­ view, but what did he do? The first thing duced by the Labour Government. By writ­ that he did was to go and consult the Par­ ing this in, we are only accepting those liamentary Draftsman, who probably knows provisions. All the other States have the more about it than he does anyhow, to get same rights of aliens to acquire land. In his opinion on the matter. As a layman, fact, I think Queensland is the only State I should say that if the clause goes to the that had any exceptions in the land that trouble of referring to the necessity of an can be acquired and perhaps there were alien having to obtain a permit under the good reasons; perhaps we have good rea­ Aliens Acts, 1867 to 1958, why would it sons for retaining the provision. There is not refer to the fact that the provision-s nothing in the Bill that has not been in contained in the 1952 Act, to which the the legislation all along and if the hon. Minister has referred, still apply? It does member did not agree with it when it was not say anything of the sort. It says very put there, I suppose the same reasons as clearly- he used in disagreeing with it then will "This section does not apply to an be quite good now. alien who purchases from the Crown any land made available for sale for an estate Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (3.12 p.m.): If in fee-simple." it is in the 1952 Act, as the Minister says, it is a pity he did not mention it or have Not being a lawyer, I ask what would be it mentioned in the marginal note against the argument of the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt or the hon. member for South Clause 16 as in the case of various other Brisbane, who has superior knowledge, if provisions that have been amended in the either went into court? The later Act Bill. The particular Acts from which vari­ would prevail. There is no saving in this ous clauses come have been noted in the clause. Therefore, the judges would be marginal notes. The noting on the margin called upon to interpret the clauses passed in to Clause 16 is "Dealings by aliens." The the 1962 Act and, those clauses being the Minister says it was in the 1952 Act, but later clauses, what would be the decision of there is nothing to show that, in fact, it was. the judges? As a layman, I should say that the alien would have a complete right Mr. Fletcher: Is that the point? I thought to purchase the 10,000 acres of brigalow the principle was what was worrying the land, as the hon. member for Warrego has hon. member. already said. 1826 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Mr. HART (Mt. Gravatt) (3.17 p.m.): The NoEs, 24 hon. member for Bundaberg has shown Mr. Adair Mr. Houston Bennett Inch abysmal ignorance of the law if he thinks , Bromley , L!oyd the hon. member for South Brisbane knows Burrows M ann more about it than I do. So far as freehold Davies Marsden Dean O'Donnell land is concerned, there is no difficulty DIP!Ock. , Thackeray whatever because the 1958 Act makes it Donald Tucker Dufficy Walsh quite clear that an alien can hold it. Duggan Gunn Tellers: Mr. Walsh: Purchased from the Crown. Hanlon Mr. Newton Hi! ton , Sherrington Mr. HART: They can hold real property. This clause makes it quite clear that they can PAIRS Mr. Nicklin Mr. Byrne purchase real property from the Crown. , Rae , Wallace The first portion of Clause 16 says that an , Lonergan ,, Graham alien has first to obtain a permit under the , Smith , MeUoy , Carey , Baxter Aliens Act entitling him to hold chattels real. I do not know what great difficultv Resolved in the affirmative. the hon. member for Bundaberg finds. I Clauses 17 and 18, as read, agreed to. cannot see any difficulty. Clause 19-Land Administration Commis- sion- Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (3.18 p.m.): The more the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt gets Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (3.25 p.m.): I to his feet, the more confused the position realise that this clause is only continuing the becomes. He suggests that the last paragraph form of administration determined by the of the clause makes it quite clear. The present Government in 1959 but it is interest­ first part of the clause specificially lays it ing to note that, over a period of nearly 30 down that unless he has a permit under the years, Labour Governments felt it was good enough to remove the administrative head of Aliens Acts, 1867 to 1958, he cannot hold the Department of Public Lands from any chattels real in Queensland. The latter part political influence, and particularly any of the clause clearly provides that the section ministerial influence. The only way in which shall not apply to an alien who desires to the Chairman of the Land Administration purchase land from the Crown. I do not Board, as it was known then, could be know whether I am confused, or whether the removed from office was by a vote of the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt is confused. Legislative Assembly. One would have I do not know whether he can make it more thought that the Government would continue clear to the Committee. All I know is that that procedure or form of administration. After all, if there is one thing that is really the latter part of the clause says that irrespec­ desirable in the administration of the Depart­ tive of what goes before it, anything in that ment of Public Lands, it is that the perma­ part does not apply. nent head particularly should be removed from any suggestion of political interference Mr. HART (Mt. Gravatt) (3.19 p.m.): The or political domination. real trouble is that the hon. member cannot distinguish between "estate in fee-simple" and This Government, very early in the piece, no doubt wanting to make provision whereby "realty". The latter part of the clause deals it could channel its own political policy into with estates in fee simple. If you take the the department irrespective of the views of combined effect of the second part and the the chairman of the board, probably felt it Aliens Act, it makes it quite clear that an would be better to have him owe his position alien can hold land in fee simple. as permanent head to the Government than to have him owe it to the Parliament. So Question-That Clause 16, as read, stand it took the retrograde step of amending the part of the Bill-put; and the Committee Act to provide for the setting up of what divided- was known as the Land Administration Com­ AYES, 35 mission. I remember that the former Minis­ ter for Public Lands, the hon. member for 1\1r. Armstrong Mr. Hughes , Reardmore , Knox Fassifern, introduced an amending measure , Bjelke-Petersen , Low providing for the title of the Chief Commis­ , Camm , Munro sioner of Lands and that is continued in this ., Chalk Dr. Noble Dr. Delamothe Mr. Pilbeam provision. Mr. Dewar , Pizzey ,. Evans , Ramsden Again, it is interesting to note that, I sup­ Ewan ,. Richter pose, ever since the Land Act was introduced ,. Fletcher Row ., Gaven Suiiivan in 1910-a matter of 50 years or so-the ,. Harrison , Tooth district commissioner was, within his district. .. Hart Wharton the man the department looked to for the .. Herbert Windsor .. Hewitt official decision in these matters. Now it .. Hiley would appear that, even though further on .. Hedges Tellers: ,. Hooper Mr. Campbell the Bill contains provision for the constitution , Houghton , Gilmore of commissioners in the various districts, and Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1827 there is in fact a definition of "Commis­ that is the reason why it wants this amend­ sioner" in the clause dealing with interpre­ ment to give it the power to dictate political tation of terms, there is no provision for the policy after it has been approved by Parlia­ Chief Commissioner of Lands. The com­ ment, irrespective of what Parliament may missioner, in the various districts, is have said. authorised under the Bill to carry on as the presiding officer of a court which has The CHAIRMAN: Order! I should like judicial power. the hon. member to confine himself to the clause. It contains nothing about direction. Mr. Ewan: He had that power before. l\ fr. W ALSH: I am quite aware of that Mr. WALSH: Of course he had the power fact. Clause 19 (2) reads- before. I am not complaining about that. The commissioner, in the respective districts, "Tlre Commission shall consist of a acts in a judicial capacity. He has the power chairman who shall be designated the to call witnesses; he has the power to make 'Chief Commissioner of Lands', and two them take oaths before they give evidence, other members." and so on; but now, irrespective of all those I am merely trying to deal with what I important powers placed in the hands of think will be the reaction to the carrying district commisisoners, for some reason the out of the duties of the Chief Commissioner Government has found it necessary to have a of Lands under this Bill. I am entitled person with overriding authority, who is to say that the Government will see that he going to tell the commissioners, I suppose, carries out its policy, irrespective of Parlia­ what to do. The position of the chairman ment. of the Land Administration Commission should be similar to that of judges, who can Mr. HART (Mt. Gravatt) (3.33 p.m.): The be removed from office only by the Legis­ hon. member for Bundaberg suggests that lative Assembly. One is entitled to suggest the Bill should contain a clause providing that there is an ulterior motive in taking that that this officer can be removed only by protection from the man who occupies such Parliament. He said that the Labour Govern­ an important position in control of the ment gave him no directions. A royal administration of a department concerned commission was held into land matters in with the economy and welfare of so many Queensland in 1956, and in evidence before people and the production from the land. it the main complaint of Mr. Creighton, who One would have thought that the Govern­ was the chief administrative officer, was that ment would have felt that this provision he received too many directions all the time. which has applied for over 30 years should At the conclusion of tlTe royal commission, have been continued. ' he was brought before Parliament and sacked. Mr. Mann: TlTey might want to direct him what to do. Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (3.34 p.m.): I think that the worst aspect of the present Mr. Ewan: Tip the bucket. Land Administration Commission is that the Chief Commissioner is subject to the Public Mr. W ALSH: I know that I cannot throw Service Act. I do not think that is a wise these challenges out in this Chamber as that provision. I have nothing to say against the is against Standing Orders. Chief Commissioner of Lands or any other member of the Land Administration 'Ihc CHAIRMAN: I hope that the hon. Commission. They have always shown me member will not. every courtesy and given me all the help that they possibly could within the scope Mr. WALSH: But I shall do it another of their duties. way. I invite the hon. member for Roma to !:et up and tip his bucket. If I want to The hon. member for Mt. Gravatt men­ say something against any officer of the tioned Mr. Creighton. It is true that Mr. Department of Public Lands, whom he wants Creighton was chairman of the Land Adminis­ to protect, I shall do so. Up till now, I tration Board, and it is true that he was have not said anything. If he wants to called to the Bar of the House. The difference drag these dead carcasses over the floor of between Mr. Creighton and the present Chief the Chamber, I extend the invitation to him Commissioner is that, as far as I know, Mr. to do it, but let him not think that he is Creighton was subject only to Parliament. going to bluff me out of saying what I intend to. The hon. member for Roma is still Mr. Hart: That is a matter of law. mumbling away, but I lTave replied very Mr. DUFFICY: It was a matter of law effectively to him. If he wants to rise to then. The present Chief Commissioner is his feet and take advantage of his right to say subject not to this Parliament but to the what he wants to, now is the time to do it, but he is not going to frighten me back Public Service Commissioner under the Public to my seat. Service Act. I believe that the person holding the responsible position of Chief Commis­ The hon. member for Brisbane said that sioner of Lands in Queensland should not the Government might want to direct this be an ordinary public servant, subject to officer. I say that it is not a case of the Public Service Commissioner, but should "might"; the Government is directing tlre be a person who can exercise an unbiased present Chief Commissioner of Lands, and judgment, free of any Public Service control 1828 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill and subject only to this Parliament. Let us House on that occasion because they realised not forget that it was an amendment brought the justice of the case the Government put down by the present Government that up at that time, indicates that they endorsed changed the position and made the Chief the action of the Government of the day. Commissioner of Lands and the other com­ They would not vote with their own party. missioners who administer the Crown estate I am not one to drag out old skeletons or to subject to the Public Service Commissioner raise unpleasant matters, but I felt it incum­ and the Public Service Act. Hon. members bent upon me to stand up and deny the on this side of the Chamber opposed the untruthful statement that this man was change then, and we think it is wrong now. dragged to the Bar of the House and cruci­ fied. The hon. member for Mt. Gravatt, Mr. EWAN (Roma) (3.37 p.m.): I did who claims that he always adheres religiously not intend to take part in the debate on to every facet of the truth, made the state­ this clause, but I was absolutely amazed by ment that he was dragged to the Bar of the some of the remarks of hon. members House. He, above all, should know that the opposite. The hon. member for Warrego gentleman concerned made a written applica­ and the hon. member for Bundaberg know tion to appear at the Bar of the House and full well that the chairman of the Land state his case. Administration Board was under the control I agree with the remarks that have been not of Parliament but of the Government made to the effect that the position of Chief in power at that time. Commissioner of Lands should, as far as pos­ Mr. Hanlon: What about Alf Muller? sible, be removed from governmental control. It is a very important position and, when we Mr. EWAN: He is as capable of looking find in this Bill that the Minister can dele­ after himself as I am. gate all his powers to this officer, it makes it all the more necessary that the officer I object to the hypocrisy we have heard should be in such a position that he can at from hon. members opposite. We have heard all times and in all ways speak and act fear­ from a former Minister of the Crown, a lessly in all that he considers to be right in man who was a member of the Government the all-important question of land admi~istra­ that crucified a wonderfully good man and tion in this State. Because of that particular besmirched his character and made it impos­ aspect I think that that officer should be sible for him during the rest of his life remov~ble only by vote of this Parliament. to undertake duties commensurate with his In other words, he should be in the same ability. After his services had been ter­ position and category as the Auditor-Gen­ minated, this Government took action to eral, or a judge of the Supreme Court. ensure that he would be allowed to remain However, if the Government has deemed in his profession in a capacity commensurate otherwise in this matter, we cannot do any­ with his ability. The Government of which thing about it other t_han stress. t~at it is the hon. member was a member dragged desirable that the Chref Commrsswner of Mr. Creighton to the Bar of the House Lands should, as far as possible, be free of and crucified him, and this Government has all control and influence that would jeopar­ done the decent and honest thing. I object dise in any way his impartiality in administer­ very strongly to the hypocrisy that has been ing this important department. exhibited by hon. members opposite during the debate on this clause. Mr. HART (Mt. Gravatt) (3.43 p.m.): My point was that although Mr. Creighton might Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) (3.39 have been free of pressure in law, in fact p.m.): I did not intend to enter the debate he was not free of pressure and he com­ at this stage, but the extravagant and untruth­ plained of that fact before the royal commis­ ful remarks that have emanated from certain sion. His main complaint was that he had hon. members on the Government benches pressure put upon him. Subsequently, steps make it necessary that I should. I state were taken to remove him. I may not have very definitely that the Government of the used the exactly correct phrase-if I did day did not bring a former chairman of not, I am sorry-but steps were taken to the Land Administration Board to the Bar remove him, and, as a result, he came to of the House. The Government gave him the Bar of the House-if I may put it that permission to come here. He made the way. But it was because other proceedings request to appear at the Bar of the House, were taken to crucify him that he came here and the Government readily conceded him and put his case. Whether that is any differ­ that right. ent in effect from what I said before, I do not Mr. Hart: You sacked him. know. Mr. Ewan: He was sacked before he came The CHAIRMAN: Order! I am sure that, to the Bar of the House. generally, hon. members are anxious to h_elp me proceed with this debate: One pomt, Mr. HILTON: Admittedly there was no other course open to the Government at that which certainly relates to thrs clause, has time and the very fact that certain members, been very well emphasised, but I think hon. including a member who now sits as a Minis. members would be helping the Chair if they ter of the Crown, refused to vote in the discontinued going over past history. Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER) Land Bill 1829

Mr. HAI'

Mr. Burrows: Don't blame the Leader of Mr. EWAN: I rise to a point of order. the Opposition. That expression is offensive to me. It is untrue, and I ask that it be withdrawn. Mr. FLETCHER: I did not blame the Leader of the Opposition. I spoke generally. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I am afraid I did not hear the expression as I was speak­ Following the royal commission of 1956, ing to the Clerk of the Parliament. when the permanent head was dismissed, it was decided in 1959 by the present Govern­ Mr. WALSH: I said that the hon. mem­ ment to place the head of the department ber for Roma had a guilty conscience in under the Public Service Act. That was the matter when he, of course, wanted to done after due consideration of all the facts raise the matter, not me. and the history. Sir William Payne was the architect of the motion that was put Mr. EWAN: I rose to a point of order forward at that stage. The chairman and because the statement is untrue; it is offen­ members of the old Land Administration sive to me, and I ask for its withdrawal. Board were almost unique among public service heads in that they were outside the The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. Public Service Act. member denies the truth of the statement and I ask the hon. member for Bundaberg They are like any other Public Service to withdraw it. heads and there is no reason why they should be outside the Public Service. Let us not Mr. WALSH: If the hon. member has kid ourselves; let us not be· insincere in our not a guilty conscience in this connection, argument that there is any real difference I accept his denial. I think it was perfectly between the head of the Commission now obvious to everybody that I attempted to and the head of the Commission as he used avoid any suggestion about previous to be. If the hon. member for Bundaberg administrations. suggests that he had no great influence on the head of the Commission under his direc­ The hon. member for Carna,--von made tion, I just do not believe him. I know the point very explicitly that the action taken the hon. member has a strong personality in the past was taken at the request of the and I know who was directing whom in that person concerned, but I am not going to combination. There is not a doubt in the world use the past for the purpose of continuing that it was the Minister who was responsible. my argument in this matter. I am going It was almost an anachronism that an officer to ask the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt who could be appointed and sacked only and the hon. member for Roma what they by Parliament was really responsible to a would do if the Chief Commissioner of Minister. It was just not common sense. Lands proceeded to communicate with per­ sons outside the department on departmental The hon. member for Warrego said that and governmental policy. What action would this gentleman should not be subject to the they take? Minister in all things. Is not the Minister directing Government policy on these Mr. Ewan: There would be no need for matters? Would he not want Government him to do so under our administration. policy to be directed through him and through the head of his department? Of Mr. WALSH: No need! I have had it course he would! I think we have wasted brought to my notice, and I have mentioned quite a lot of time on this matter. It was it in the Chamber, that when a humble plug debated years ago. It has nothing to do down the clerical line in one of the depart­ with the present legislation. I think this ments was accused of passing information clause sets out the proper way to organise to certain Labour members, they very soon the administration. found a way of dealing with him under the Public Service Act. It is perfectly true. Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (3.54 p.m.): I Mr. Ewan: They did not bring him to think you will agree with me Mr. Taylor, the Bar of the House. that I tried to avoid any reference to past administration. Mr. WALSH: He was not obliged to come to the Bar of the House. They dealt The CHAIRMAN: Order! the Chair will with him under the Public Service Act. express no opinion. As the hon. member for \Varrego has Mr. WALSH: I think all hon. members pointed out, this provision is designed to on the other side of the Chamber will agree bring the Chief Commissioner of Lands with me that I confined my remarks under the Public Service Act. One would specifically to the appointment of the Chief think hon. members opposite would want to Commissioner of Lands and his removal, get away from any suggestion of scandal. by the 1959 Act, from the protection of this Goodness knows, there have been enough Parliament. I did not go into the past history of them in connection with land matters in of 1956 concerning Creighton, or anyone this State. We do not need to go back to else. The hon. member for Roma, 1956 only. Look up some of the old records immediately, of course, with a guilty con­ of the Tory Government's day and see the science, wanted to raise that matter. big land scandals in connection with railway Land Bill [22 NoVEMBER] Land Bill 1831 properties and so on. There is any amount I think it would be the height of nonsense of them there, apart from balloting and to have every application rejected by the other things. Commissioner, or accepted by him, submitted The hon. member for Roma has denied to the court for approval. that he has a guilty conscience, but at least When one reads all the conditions associ­ I cannot be blamed if I have the impression ated with the open and selective methods of that he owes some obligation-- balloting for land, one finds, particularly in regard to the open method, that the Com­ The CHAIR:\1AN: Order! That matter is missioner has to make certain inquiries and settled. take certain action on applications received Mr. Ewan: You will tip it if you can. by him. I do not think that it is intended that all of those applications, after being Mr. WALSH: There i'3 a way that I can. dealt with by the Commissioner, particularly Mr. Ewan: I know. in respect of open ballots, should be referred to the court. The clause states- The CHAIRMAN: Order! Will the hon. "A decision of the Commissioner accept­ member continue his speech! ing an application to select land shall not be subject to appeal to the Court, but Mr. WALSH: Yes, Mr. Taylor. I know every such application shall be referred to they would like to stop me from saying the Court. what I want to say. Of course, we have a tolerant Chairman and he will keep me "If the Court approves the application in order. That is one thing-and it is for the Commissioner's decision shall be final. him to say when I am out of order. I "If the Court refuses the application the do attempt to keep within the scope of the Commissioner's decision shall be thereby debate. set asi.de." I register my protest here again. Irrespec­ I can appreciate that aspect of it, but is it tive of what the Minister says, don't I have intended-and this is what it means as a recollection of another measure thut was drafted-that every application to select land introduced by the Government? Having received by the Commission and accepted by written policy into the Act Y<;!ry specifically, the Commissioner has, in due course, to be it then proceeded to say in one provision referred to the Land Court? I should like that, irrespective of what was contained in the Minister to clarify that point. that clause. the Commissioner operating another section of public administration Sub-clause 7, referring to "minor irregulari­ should take his directions from the Minister ties not to invalidate ballots", reads- and without any record being taken. "When the decision of the Commissioner accepting an application for land under any The CHAIRMAN: Order! That is not tenure under this Act has been determined relevant to this clause. by lot as prescribed, the Court shall not refuse the application or reverse the Com­ Mr. HART (Mt. Gravatt) (3.59 p.m.): Out missioner's decision on the grounds of- of deference to you, Mr. Taylor, I will not (a) the inclusion in the ballot of any answer the hon. member for Bundaberg; unqualified applicant who was not the but he would be so terribly easy to answer. successful applicant; or Clause 19. as read, agreed to. (b) the exclusion from the ballot of a Clauses 20 to 28, both inclusive, as read, qualified applicant; or agreed to. (c) any irregularity in the form of any Clause 29-Appeal from Commissioner's unsuccessful application for the same decision- land or in the mode of lodging such unsuccessful application with the Land Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) Agent, (4 p.m.): I should like some clarification from if the Court is satisfied that the Commis­ the Minister of Clause 29 (6). Clause 29 sioner acted in good faith and in a reason­ deals in general with appeals from the Com­ able manner in the circumstances known missioner's decisions. Sub-clause 6 reads- to him at the time." "A decision of the Commissioner accept­ ing an application to select land shall not It is possible, of course, that more than one be subject to appeal to the Court, but every qualified applicant could be inadvertently such application shall be referred to the excluded from a ballot. It is possible that Court." several applications could be misplaced and not dealt with as they should have been, and I take it that this refers to decisions regarding I think that if it is discovered that even one successful applicants after determination by qualified applicant was inadvertently excluded, the Commissioner, although it does not say the ballot should be held again. I do not so. If that is not the case, it is open to think it is fair to include a provision that interpretation the other way, because it would validate such a regrettable occurrence. states- The Bill says that where it is clearly estab­ . every such application shall be lished that the Commissioner was not aware referred to the Court." that he was excluding qualified applicants 1832 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill from the ballot, the result of the ballot another ballot. I think that is a common­ stands and is not set aside. I think that we sense provision. It has been in the law since should make provision to ensure that once 1929, and that is the explanation of it. evidence is produced showing that qualified applicants have, through no fault of their Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) (4.9 own, been excluded from a ballot, the ballot p.m.): I think it is intended that the will be re-conducted. The Minister should Commissioner should refer the successful give some consideration to that matter. applications to the court after the ballot, but that is definitely not stated in this The two points that I have raised are very sub-clause. important, and I shall await the Minister's explanation before saying anything further. Mr. Fletcher: Which one are you referring to? Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Mr. HILTON: Sub-clause (6), which says- (4.6 p.m.): This provision has been in the "A decision of the Commissioner law since 1880 or 1884, I think, and has not accepting an application to select land shall been changed. It is the law that was not be subject to appeal to the Court, administered for many years by former but every such application shall be referred Governments. to the Court." Mr. Hilton: I was not born in 1884. A certain amount of ambiguity arises because of the obligations imposed upon the Commis­ Mr. FLETCHER: I was not suggesting sioner in regard to open ballots. I am not that the hon. member was old in anything permitted to discuss that clause in advance but his ideas. The decision of the but this is a sweeping provision. Commissioner is made in accordance with certain elementary rules that are laid down­ Mr. Ewan interjected. too much land, under age, being an alien, or not qualified for some other reason that Mr. HILTON: But it does not state that. I cannot think of at the moment. If a It is an application to select land, an appli­ person prima facie is qualified, his application cation that is submitted to the court. But is referred to the court, which has to approve the point I am making is that the Commis­ of all applicants. sioner is obliged to deal with certain applica­ tions, to consider the financial terms and all 1\'lr. Hilton: Prior to the ballot, or after the other conditions associated with the open the ballot? ballot, and he must make a decision on those applications to ballot before the ballot is Mr. FLETCHER: After the ballot. The held. Commissioner conducts the ballot, and he has to make sure that everything is on the Mr. Fletcher: Yes. up-and-up. Mr. HILTON: But m this clause there is In reply to the hon. gentleman's second a sweeping provision covering any decision query, I suggest that there may be another of the Commissioner accepting an applica­ point of view. Those who have been found tion to select land. It does not say, "if the to be duly qualified have taken part in the application is successful"-- ballot; somebody has won and all the others have lost. Should we say, "There has been Mr. Ewan: It says it shall not be subject a minor irregularity somewhere. We will to appeal. have to hold the ballot again."? That has been the law since 1929. It was thought Mr. HILTON: That is so, but it states that the expense of conducting a further that every such application shall be referred ballot should not be incurred, and it was to the court. decided years ago that the position of a Mr. Ewan: Every successful application. successful applicant should not be jeopardised by minor irregularities in a ballot, such as Mr. HILTON: It does not say "successful" the inclusion of an unqualified applicant or application. If you have in another clause the exclusion of a qualified applicant, provided conditions imposed upon the Commissioner that the court is satisfied-this is the crux that he must say "yea" or "nay" to an of the matter-that the Commissioner acted application to enter an open ballot and, in in good faith and in a reasonable manner. this clause, that every application on which I am not unsympathetic to such a case, the Commissioner gives a decision has to but we must look at both sides of the be submitted to the court, there is ambiguity. question. I drew the attention of the There is no special provision. I know that Consolidation Committee to this point, and the actual intention is that successful I think I agreed with them that the old applicants shall be referred to the court, but law was good law. As long as there was as I see it at the moment a great amount no proof of bad faith in any transaction, of ambiguity and misunderstanding could and as long as the Commissioner acted in arise from this clause, and it is worth while a reasonable manner and according to all having another look at it. If it said "every the circumstances known to him at the time, successful application", it would be a differ­ it was considered that there should not be ent matter. Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER) Land Bill 1833

Mr. EWAN (Roma) (4.12 p.m.): Despite Mr. Hilton: I referred to that myself. what the hon. member for Carnarvon says­ and I appreciate mostly what he does say Mr. FLETCHER: Yes. The Commissioner and believe he is a very honest, sincere, and takes in the applications and he rejects those experienced member-- that he thinks are irregular. He has certain elementary requirements that rule out or Mr. Dufficy: There are not many of us rule in most of them. He has a ballot left. between those who qualify and declares the Mr. EWAN: That is quite true. successful applicants. The Land Court has The Bill distinctly lays down that the to formally approve of the successful Commissioner has the final power and there applicants. Perhaps it might have improved shall be no appeal from his decision on the the reading of it if we had inserted the word acceptance of the successful application. The "successful", but I am assured it is not successful applicant's application is sub­ legally necessary. The fact of tlre matter is mitted to the court in a purely formal way that it is covered on reading the whole Bill. in chambers, but objection to the successful Whether it would be an impediment to have applicant may be made by reason of his it there, I do not know. Only the successful applicants go to the court and they have no statement. Hon. members will remember right of appeal on any ground against the that applicants must sign a statement that court's decision. That is as it was. Even they will use the subject land for their own though the hon. gentleman may not agree benefit and not as agent for any other per­ with it, it lras been going on for a long son, and so on, and there are certain things while. that make them eligible or ineligible. If, then, a person misleads the Commissioner Clause 29, as read, agreed to. there may be objection to the court and the Clause 30-Land Court- court formally hears the matter. If hon. members refer to subclause (7), it will be Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) (4.17 found that the whole matter is clarified. p.m.): I oppose the provision reading- That subclause reads- "A member shall not be designated as "When the decision of the Commis­ President of the Land Court unless he is sioner accepting an application for land a barrister or solicitor of the Supreme under any tenure under this Act has been Court of Queensland of not less than five determined by lot as prescribed the Court years standing." shall not refuse the application or reverse That is a very sweeping provision, one that the Commissioner's decision on the probably could embarrass the Government grounds of- at any time. The office of President of the (a) the inclusion in the ballot of any Land Court is a very important position. unqualified applicant who was not the Any occupant of that office should be a successful applicant; or man highly experienced in land matters and (b) the exclusion, from the ballot of highly skilled in making all the assessments a qualified applicant; or that the Land Court has to make from time to time. It may so happen that among the (c) any irregularity in the form of highly-experienced men of the Department any unsuccessful application for the of Public Lands, or any other department same land or in the mode of lodging that has to deal with Land Court matters, such unsuccessful application with the such as the Valuer-General's Department, Land Agent, there is no-one with the necessary legal if the Court is satisfied that the Commis­ qualifications. To my mind it is more sioner acted in good faith and in a important to have appointed to that position reasonable manner in the circumstances a man highly skilled in all phases of land known to him at the time." matters and valuations, than a legal man of I think that makes it quite clear when the five years' standing who may know very little normal processes are carried out and the about the involved subjects that have to be Commissioner determines whether or not an dealt with by the President of the Land applicant is successful on the information Court. The provision is unnecessary and placed at his disposal. If he rejects the redundant. Again, there is the fact that if application in accordance with the informa­ the President of the Land Court is granted tion placed at his disposal there is no appeal. leave of absence, or is away for any length But there is an appeal against the successful of time for any reason, another member of applicant if the successful applicant, by the court can be deputed to relieve him. doubtful, untruthful, or unsavoury methods He need not necessarily be a legal man. I has obtained a right to ballot. Then the do not see why the Government should court has the power to terminate it. insist on this qualification for the President Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ of the Land Court. I appreciate that the Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) late Sir Willim Payne was responsible for (4.15 p.m.): I think I agree with the hon. the insertion of that provision in the Act gentleman. On a quick look at it, it does that was brought down by the former sound a bit odd, but if it is taken in con­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation. junction with the rest of the Bill, and I refer • to Clause 99-- Mr. Walsh: No. 1Rl4 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Mr. IDLTON: I understand the hon. mem­ Mr. Ewan: His services were appreciated. ber for Bundaberg to say "No". Mr. WALSH: They were appreciated by Mr. Walsh: Not in its entirety. the Government of the day. It was not a Labour Government. When all other Mr. HILTON: If I am wrong, I stand salaries, including those of judges were corrected. That was my understanding of reduced by agreement by 22 per cent., his it. I do not think it is necessary to have salary was increased. This was the one a barrister or a solicitor of the Supreme official in the Public Service in Queensland Court occupying that position. The history who got an increase. of the Land Court proves that, in days gone It is within my experience of the adminis­ by we have had men who, although they tration of the land laws that offtcers who were not legal men, successfully carried have done service in the various branches out their duties as President of the Land of the Department of Public Lands, because Court. I should like the Minister to justify they have specialised in the specific field, this provision, if he can. can, on questions of law relating to the Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (4.21 p.m.): I administration of the Land Act, run rings agree with the hon. member for Carnarvon around the Q.C's and many other people that this provision is unnecessary. My who hold themselves out as qualified legal recollection of the creation of this position men. in the Land Court goes back to the time The same applies to sugar legislation. The when the late Sir William Payne was solicitor or barrister who concentrated on appointed to look into the matter of advising the particular questions arising under the the Government of the day on a new plan Regulation of Sugar Cane Prices Act, even for the administration of the Department of though he may be only a junior solicitor Public Lands. A provisional Land Adminis­ in some of the sugar areas, could leave the tration Board was established back in the top barristers of the city a long way behind. days of the late Mr. McCormack, who was I do not say that in a derogatory way. then Secretary for Public Lands. That con­ It was only because they specialised in those tinued until the change of Government in branches of the law. 1929. Whoever was responsible at the time was able to convince the Government of the Here we have the limitation that, no day to provide for the permanent appoint­ matter what are the qualifications of an ment of the Land Administration Board. officer in the Department of Public Lands, Because of his position as chairman of that unless he has passed an examination to board, the then occupant received a salary become a solicitor-a university examination of £500 in excess of the salary he was now, do not forget-or has become a receiving as a member of the Land Court. qualified barrister and been entered on the As time went on, during the term of the roll of the Supreme Court of Queensland, Labour Government the occupant of the he cannot be appointed to the position. I offtce did not feel inclined to go back to do not think that is a step in the right the court. Jt was hardly likely that he would direction because it gives the Government go back to the salary of £1,000 which was a very limited field from which to select. then payable to members of the court when So many legal men outside the department he was getting £1,500 in his other position. would know so little about the implications The Government of the day, looking for ways of the administration and the application of and means to justify a salary of £1,500 the land laws. It is a pity that within for him, created the position of President the department there are not more offtcers of the Land Court. I am open to correction who show a little more promise for appoint­ on that, but my recollection is that there ment to these positions. was no condition at that time that the Again I do not say this in any derogatory occupant of the position should hold the sense, but I have a recollection that the qualification of a barrister, or a solicitor, for Government has had to go outside the a period of five years. department to appoint members of the Land 1\ir. Fletcher: He was a barrister. Administration Commission. I do not know that that is very encouraging to those offtcers Mr. WALSH: We know that he was a who devote a lifetime of service to the barrister, but although he passed all the administration of the department. I agree examinations, and so on, he never practised. with the hon. member for Carnarvon that That appears to me to be what happened it is not a satisfactory position. If you in the creation of that office. Then certain are looking for the best brains to administer conditions were written into the Act that within the department Government policy as the President of the Land Court would be laid down by the Parliament, what better called upon to make special investigations service could be had than from those trained at the request of the Minister. I realise that within the department? these were reasons for justifying the con­ Mr. Ewan interjected. tinuance of the £1,500 salary, but I might mention that when everyone else's salary Mr. WALSH: We know that many people was reduced. he received an increase of who have gone through the school of £250. adversity are far more competent than others Land Bill [22 NovEMBER] Land Bill 1835 who have gone through the university. Take Mr. Walsh: He can still be in the minority. Dan Casey, for instance. Just think how far ahead he is of a lot of people with a Mr. FLETCHER: That may be so, but university education, for all their L.L.B's and there is good reason for his being there B.A's. because he injects that specialised knowledge necessary in making some determinations. Mr. Ewan: Still, he is a barrister. The office of President was created in 1937 with the appointment of Mr. Payne, later Mr. WALSH: Yes, but he came up the Sir William Payne. He was a barrister, hard way, through the school of adversity. as is also the pre·sent President. Because a man passes the university This is the first time that it has been examination to become a solicitor, it does included in the law and we think that it is not follow that he is better than a man an advantage. I think that that clearly who came up the hard way. That has not expresses the Government's point of view. been my experience in public life. Clause 30, as read, agreed to. I hope the Government will see the wisdom of deleting this provision at some time, Clause 31-Salaries of members of the because it is a reflection on the department. Land Court- Mr. Hilton interjected. Mr. O'DONI'."'ELL (Barcoo) (4.33 p.m.): I refer in particular to Clause 31 (4) (a), in Mr. W ALSH: My point is that this would which the provisions of the Judges' Pensions be the first time it has been introduced in Act of 1957 are made applicable to the this way. President of the Land Court. I do not know that this Government has I think that I may, with advantage, briefly made any provision affecting the president run through the provisions of that Act before of the Land Court in any of the amendments making my specific point. After five years' it has introduced. I know there have been service-there is no pension payable before occasions when the so-called laymen on the the end of that period-a judge is allowed Land Appeal Court have disagreed with the on retirement 20 per cent. of his salary. view of the Supreme Court judge appointed For every year progressively up to the tenth to interpret the law in respect of appeals year of service the pension is increased by from decisions of the Land Court, in exactly 4 per cent., so that at the tenth year the the same way as the Court of Criminal pension is 40 per cent. of the salary received Appeal or the Full Court hears appeals by the judge at the time of his retirement. from decisions of the Supreme Court judges. There have been occasions on which the This provision brings the pension of the two lay members have disagreed with the President of the Land Court in line with judge, with the result that I do not think those of judges. The President of the I am incorrect in saying that there were two Court is to receive £5,000 a year. If he members of the judiciary who had no desire retires after 10 years' service, he will receive whatever to sit again on Land Appeal Court a pension of £2,000 a year. After five matters. They took the view that they should years he will receive £1,000, which increases not have to run second to the two so-called progressively to the maximum at the rate laymen. In one case at Charleville or of £200 a year. However, in Clause 31 Roma-I am not too sure which one it (4) (b) there is an exception that indicates was-a decision was given by a majority of to me that the mind of someone somewhere 2 to 1 against the judge, even though Sir envisages the possibility of a public servant William Payne was a barrister. Though there with the necessary qualifications being may be a provision requiring a judge of appointed President of the Court. the Supreme Court to be appointed to the Paragraph (b) says- Land Appeal Court, it does not necessarily "every member of the Court designated follow that the other two members of the as President of the Land Court at any court will accept the point of view of the time after the commencement of this Act legal man. who is not a contributor to the Public Service Superannuation Fund . . .''' Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ One must be a public servant or have a Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) special privilege to be a contributor to the (4.31 p.m.): This is really a matter of Public Service Superannuation Fund, so it opinion, and the opinion of the Govern­ seems that that part of the clause allows for ment is that it is desirable that at least the possibility of a public servant's becoming one member of the Land Court, preferably president of the court. If Ire did, he would the President, should be a barrister or C('ntinue making his contributions to the lawyer, because of the obvious advantages Public Service Superannuation Fund, and that such a qualification must be on certain when he retired he would obtain the occasions. The hon. member for Bundaberg maximum benefit of £1,638 a year. The more or less admitted that there are good point I wish to make is that he would have reasons why the Land Appeal Court should contributed to receive that, whereas a presi­ have one of its members a judge of the dent of the court wlro had been brought in Supreme Court to bring to it the advantage from outside and had not been a member of of legal knowledge. the Public Service, and therefore not covered 1836 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill by the Public Service Superannuation Fund, Section 4 of the same Act states- would be eligible after five years for a "Where a Judge who has attained the pension of £!,000, and after further years age of sixty years retires from office (other­ of service for a pension of £2,000, on a wise than in accordance with the provisions non-contributory basis. In addition, the of 'The Judges' Retirement Act of 1921' or highest amount payable would be in excess by reason of permanent disability or of the highest amount payable under the infirmity as specified in section five of this Public Service Superannuation Scheme. Act) after serving as a Judge for not less There must be some reason for this. If a than ten years, he shall, on retiring, be public servant is appointed to this position, entitled to an annual pension at the rate he will be penalised because he will be of twenty-seven and one-half per centurn expected to contribute for his own retiring of his salary, and at the additional rate pension and, no matter how many years he of two and one-half per centum of his serves, he will not receive the maximum salary for each complete year of his ser­ that an appointee from outside the Public vice as a Judge in excess of ten years, but Service will receive if he had been president so that the rate of his pension shall not of the court for ten years. I cannot see that exceed forty per centum of his salary." there is any logic in that discrimination between a public servant who may become Section 5 provides- president of the court and a man drawn "Where a Judge retires or is retired from outside, and I ask the Minister for an from office after serving as a Judge for explanation of that point. not less than five years, and the Director­ General of Health and Medical Services 1\lr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (4.39 p.m.): I for the State of Queensland certifies to the referred to this matter at the second-reading Treasurer that his retirement is by reason stage of the Bill some weeks ago. We of permanent disability or infirmity, he were then allowed only 40 minutes to speak shall, on retirement, be entitled to an on the motion; we are now allowed 25 annual pension at the rate of fifteen per minutes to speak on each clause, which gives centum of his salary, and at the additional us a greater scope. rate of two and one-half per centum of his salary for each complete year of his ser­ Clause 31 deals with the salaries of mem­ vice as a Judge in excess of five years, but bw; of the Land Court, but I think the so that the rate of his pension shall not matters raised in subclause (4) require some exceed forty per centum of his salary." further explanation from the Minister. More than pensions is involved, and so that there Section 6 reads- will be no misunderstanding about the inter­ "Where a Judge retires or is retired from pretation of the conditions, I am going to office, after serving as a Judge for less read, if I have sufficient time, the relevant than five years, and the Director-General provisions of the Judges' Pensions Act. They of Health and Medical Services for the come under four headings. One is, "Pension State of Queensland certifies to the to Judge retiring at age seventy." The_ next Treasurer that his retirement is by reason is, "Pension to Judge retiring voluntanly at of permanent disability or infirmity, he or after age sixty." A further one is, shall, on retirement, be entitled to an "Pension to Judge retiring on account of annual pension at the rate of fifteen per ill-health after not less than five years' centum of his salary if before his appoint­ service." And the final one is, "Pension to ment he shall have satisfied the Director­ Judge retiring on account of ill-health after General of Health and Medical Services less than five years' service." that his health was then satisfactory." So it is not only in relation to the matter Hon. members will see that it covers a very the hon. member for Barcoo has raised, wide field. Under the Supreme Court Act because there are so many headings involved judges are appointed for life, as it were, or in Sections 3, 4, 5, and 6 of the Judges' Pen­ up to the age of 70 years. Of course, they sions Act, which is an Act to provide pen­ are then obliged to retire but the person who sions for judges of the Supreme Court of is President of the Land Court is appointed Queensland and their widows, and to make for a period of 15 years. Fifteen years is certain consequential provisions. It was the period of his appointment as provided for assented to on 17 December, 1957. Section in this Bill, just as it is for other members 3 of that Act provides- of the court. "Where a Judge retires from office in Mr. Fletcher: He can be reappointed. accordance with the provisions of 'The Judges' Retirement Act of 1921,' after Mr. WALSH: That is not the point. I am serving as a Judge for not less than five making the point the judges are appointed for years, he shall, on retirement, be entitled life, or till 70 years of age. In this case a to an annual pension at the rate of twenty person is appointed to the office of President per centum of his salary, and at the addi­ of the Land Court for a period of 15 years tional rate of four per centum of his salary and enjoys all the privileges that judges enjoy for each complete year of his service as a under the Judges' Pensions Act, without any Judge in excess of five years, but so that contribution whatever. Discrimination has the rate of his pension shall not exceed been shown against the public servant, even forty per centum of his salary." though he may be a qualified barrister or Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1837 qualified solicitor, who is appointed to the and the Governor in Council shall, on position of President of the Land Court. He application made by the Judge in that may get £400 a year less but, as the salaries behalf, grant such leave of absence to of the judges go up so does the salary of such Judge accordingly." the President of the Land Court. Of course, they end up getting a greater pension than Those are very substantial concessions when they would if they remained on their present we take into consideration the fact that the salary. Because a person has been a public members of the Land Court are appointed servant and has the qualifications of having for a period of 15 years and, as has been passed his examinations as a barrister or a remarked, there is also the power to solicitor he is disqualified from receiving the reappoint them after the period of 15 years. same pension as the President of the Land I do not know why the Government has Court. become so generous in the matter. I know that the Industrial Commission comes I do not want to make any suggestions into these things as well. I do not think it about the appointment, but the fact remains is a good procedure to incorporate in this that the Government would have done far legislation provisions that relate to the better had it appointed somebody who was judiciary in Queensland, having regard to not in any way associated with the political the fact that they are even apart from life of the community. The appointment to Parliament, as it were-provisions that are this office of the chairman of the electoral part of their security in life. Again, I boundaries commission prompted an inter­ remember that a member of Parliament jection on one occasion when I was speak­ pays up to £4 a week out of his salary to ing that it was probably for services ren­ become entitled to his superannuation. It is dered to the Government. I did not go to not on the reduced period of service, do not that extent but I made another remark that forget. I do not know what it is now­ it might be blackmail. three Parliaments or nine years, whatever it lVIr. Fletcber: That is even worse. is-before he becomes eligible. There are many things about this pro­ Mr. W ALSH: I accept the responsibility vision that I think the Minister should for saying it, even if it does suggest some­ explain to our satisfaction. He should tell thing worse. When the Minister and his us why the Government is fully justified in colleagues were over here they would have extending this privilege to the President of used much stronger terms against the Labour the Land Court. He should explain the Government had such an appointment been discrimination in the appointment of a public made. We know how many times efforts servant. Even though he may be a qualified have been made over the years to have barrister or solicitor he could still be receiv­ incorporated in the Land Act the term ing £400 or £500 less in pension. "Judge of the Land Court". I know that the feelings of the judiciary would be very Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (4.51 p.m.): much against that. Fortunately, no previous It is useless beating about the bush in this Government did it. matter. I think we should call a spade But the clause goes further than that. a spade. It is quite obvious the Government While I agree with sub-clauses (5) (a) and considers that the present occupant of the (5) (b) in respect of leave to the President position has done something to deserve a and members of the Land Court, again little more than his successor is likely to they are going to benefit under the provi­ deserve. If we look for the reason, it is sions of the Supreme Court Act so far as sticking out plainly. He was chairman of leave is concerned. Section 3 of the the electoral boundaries Commission. This Supreme Court Act of 1944 provides- is only a reward for services rendered to "(1.) Every Judge of the Supreme Court the present Government. If the Government in office at the passing of this Act, and is as honest as it pretends to be, why doesn't every Judge of the Supreme Court there­ it reward him by a payment of £10,000 after appointed shall, subject to this Act, for his services as chairman of that com­ be entitled to leave of absence on the mission? If the Government did that we following scale- could deal with appointees equitably and (a) After ten years' completed service on their merits, and be fair to them all. from the date of his appointment, leave Instead of selecting one man for special of absence on full pay for a period of treatment we should provide for all appoin­ twelve months." tees. We should not include a proviso whereby it is possible that his successor may I wonder how the poor fitter or the poor not be treated as well as he is. I repeat cane-cutter feels about his long service that this is only an indirect way of reward­ leave! The section continues- ing a man for services rendered to the "(b) After such ten years' completed Government by which it gained a political service, leave of absence on the basis advantage at the elections. If there are any of full pay for one and one-fifth extenuating circumstances, they are very months for every further year of ser­ slight. The only thing is that the Menzies vice, Government established a precedent. 1838 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (4.53 p.m.): I Mr. FLETCHER: He will be fairly have only a few points to raise before the covered by superannuation, and if there is a Minister replies. I want to know why there small anomaly I will be prepared to have should be discrimination against a man who a look at it. It will not be a serious matter was previously a member of the Public Ser­ at all. The members of the court are not vice and was paying into the superannuation public servants as members o~ the c~urt, but scheme. There appears to be discrimination if they come from the Public Service they agaimt him. can carry on their superannuation. If we get a man from outside, as I said before, we My second point is that it does not appear have to make the position attractive enough to be so much a question of whether or to get the right man. After all, that is where not the Judges' Pension Act is too generous, the difference of opinion arises. or not generous enough, but of whether the Mr. Walsh: You would have got any person who occupies the position of President number of applicants even with a pension of the Land Court is entitled to similar bene­ equivalent to the public servants'. fits. If the Minister will answer my queries, I will be indeed grateful. Mr. FLETCHER: That, again, is a matter of opinion. This we ~hink is necessa~y. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ When I asked the Public Service Commis­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) sioner about it he came up with a recom­ (4.54 p.m.): Generally speaking, the differ­ mendation or rather an expression of ences of opinion could be attributed to a opinion, tl;at we were warranted in granting different point of view and a different evalua­ a pension considering the importance ~e tion of the importance of the position of attached to the position. He could not begm President of the Land Court. It has been to pay superannuation !is at that stage in considered necessary and desirable to attract life it would be very difficult for h1m. a practising barrister of some standing for I think that is about all I can say. We the reasons that we canvassed previously could argue about this all day. It is a matter when we said that the President of the of our opinion as to the imJ?ortance, the Land Court shall be a barrister or a solici­ weight the dignity, the standmg, and the tor. If we want to enhance the status of value to the community of the position of this position by appointing a barrister of President of the Land Court, as against the some standing, we must make the job attrac­ opinion of the OppositioJ?.. We ~u~t agree tive. To do that, it was considered necessary to differ. It is our considered opm10n that to make it salary-wise, and pension-wise, this is the right thing to do. attractive enough to get that type of man. Whether the members of the Opposition Mr. O'DONNELL (Barcoo) (4.58 p.m.): feel that this was important to do, whether I should like, through you, Mr. Gaven, to what we did was worth it, is a matter of ask the Minister would it be possible to their opinion. In our opinion it was. It allow a public servant to carry on his super­ seemed to us that if such a man, who could annuation until he arrives at the time when possibly aspire to the Supreme Court or his retiring pension as President of the Land the District Court some day, did get to that Court would be equivalent to what he would position he should get a pension, and our receive if he were to retire as a public servant and therefore he would be, at that evaluation of it was that the position of stage, ~llowed to conclude his COJ?tract with President of the Land Court was somewhat the Public Service SuperannuatiOn Fund, analagous with, or nearly as important as, claim a refund and then be covered by a one of those two positions. pension under the Judges' Pensions Act of As for the public servant, there may be 1957. a bit of an anomaly and I would be prepared to have a look at it on the basis of what Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham hon. members have pointed out. -Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (4.59 p.m.): I cannot, of course, give any If a public servant who was a practising sort of undertaking in respect of that, but barrister was appointed and had been paying I have said that, if there is proven to be in, it would be very late in life, of course, an anomaly in this and hon. members are and he would have reached the stage where worried enough about it, I will take it seri­ it was not terribly onerous; but if there is ously to heart and see what we can do a):lout a marked disparity between the rewards that it. If there is a few hundred pounds differ­ could be taken out upon retirement by a ence in eventual reward as between a man practising barrister who came from my from outside and a man from inside, let us department and those of a man from outside reasonal:Jly approach it at a later stage but the department, I would be prepared to have not ch.itter up our thinking on it at the a look at it. moment. Mr. Walsh: Have a look at it and recom­ Mr. O'Donnell: Thank you. mit the clause. Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (5 p.m.): The Mr. FLETCHER: No. I think it might Minister has given us what might be called be done later without harming anyone. a long-distance promise. I think the most Mr. Dufficy: You admit there is an desirable course is to recognise the anomaly anomaly and you are prepared to have a look now. After all, there are nearly 400 clauses at it? in the Bill and, if the Minister wants to Land Bill [22 NovEMBER] Land Bill 1839 delay this clause to get a little advice from postttons. Consequently I feel, as has been the Parliamentary Draftsman, he could easily pointed out by other speakers, that if there have put in the clause the added provision are men within the service with the necessary that, irrespective of whether the appointee qualifications, they should be promoted to was a member of the Public Service at the enjoy the fruits of success in the higher time of appointment to the office of Presi­ positions which provide, among other things, dent, now that the judges' pension applies to fJ.vourable pension conditions. that office, from the date of appointment as President of the Land Court of that person The President of the Land Court carries who was a contributor to the Public Service out an important job. I have been endea­ Superannuation Fund he shall enjoy the vouring to make myself conversant with his privilege of the pension applicable to the responsibilities to see whether they are occupier of the office. It is all very well for equivalent to those of a judge of the the Minister to say that there might be a Supreme Court. I think it is reasonable to small anomaly of a couple of hundred assert that, generally speaking, a man who pounds. I have made a rough calculation ,~arns appointment to the Supreme Court has that as time goes on it will be nearer to l1ad more varied experience at the bar than £400 or £500 and probably in excess of that. has a person whom the Government might A public servant contributes over the years consider fit to fill the office of President of to entitle him to his superannuation benefits. the Land Court. Notwithstanding that a Tt is not asking too much to extend to that Supreme Court judge may have had more particular appointee, as a member of the varied experience, the duties of the President Public Service contributing to the superannua­ of the Land Court can be equated in import­ tion fund, the pension applicable to the ance with those of a Supreme Court judge. present occupant of the office who pays noth­ mg to any fund to enable him to draw his I am sorry indeed that the Minister pension. has not made a more positive decTaration of his intentions. It is all very well for the !VIr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ Minister to say, "We will look at this Leader of the Opposition) (5.2 p.m.): I have sympathetically." But, as has been pointed listened in my room to the contributions out by hon. members who have already to the debate of the hon. members for spoken on this clause, a mere pious plati­ Barcoo. Port Curtis, and Bundaberg. I tudinous remark made by a Minister, or think that their submissions have been valid even a very sincere remark made by a ones. I would have liked something more Minister with all his conviction behind it. definite from the Minister concerning the that he personally is sympathetic, does not anomaly referred to by speakers on this side mean that his wish or desire is likely to be of the Chamber. translated at a subsequent date into action I do not think that any restrictions should along the lines that he has indicated to this be placed on outstanding men within the Assembly. Consequently, it is then too late Public Service. Indeed, it has been dis­ to say, "We did not raise this question o uieting to me to see the actions of the because the Minister gave us an assurance Government in so many directions, in that it would be considered subsequently.'' importing to departments, particularly the I think we are entitled to register obje-ction Department of Labour and Industry, men to discrimination between a person in the who have been appointed to positions of high department, who is restricted, from memory, status and with high salaries. This has to a maximum payment of £1,638, and a reacted against ambitious and loyal mem­ person from outside, who receives £2,000 bers of the Public Service. I must concede a year if he serves 10 years as President that the Government has at any time the of the Land Court. right to make such an appointment if it feels that the services are required of some­ At the same time, neither I nor my party body who has a degree of skill and experi­ would wish to be associated with taking away ence in a certain direction that is not readily from a man who was properly qualified and available within a department. The Railways properly appointed by the Government of Act still provides that no appointment can the day the reward to which he was entitled. be made of anyone except a permanent After all, the Government appoints Supreme employee of the Railway Department unless Court judges in addition to appointing the a certificate is furnished by the Commissioner President of the Land Court. If it accepts that there is no-one within the department the responsibility of determining that the with the necessary qualifications to carry out duties of this position are comparable with the job. If he signs that certificate, it is those of a judge, I should not like to take then within his power to appoint a person from the President of the Land Court the from outside to any position within the pension that a person in a comparable department. I think that that may perhans position would receive. Although the hon. even apply to the Public Service members to whom I have referred have very Commissioner. properly voiced some misgivings about this I have been concerned at the tendency of matter, I wish to indicate to the Minister this Government, despite its desire to pitch that we will not go so far as voting against for the Public Service vote, to prevent it if it is submitted to us. In other words, ambitious, loyal, and experienced men in the although we have some misgivings, we are Public Service from reaching the highest prepared to support the proposal. 1840 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

I do not know the present occupant of the• I think the very purpose of grvmg high position of President of the Land Court, salaries and liberal pension provisions to in the sense of being able to make an assess­ members of the judiciary is specifically to ment of his qualifications. Frequently, in place them outside the sphere of suspicion. the course of our Parliamentary duties, lt makes them men who are absolutely we are in touch with senior officers of incorruptible. They are respected; their the Public Service. Whether or not we are judgments and their decisions are accepted competent to make an assessment of their because they are appointed on account of capabilities is beside the point; nevertheless, their absolute incorruptibility. Their remun­ they condition our thinking. If the names eration and pensions are fixed high enough of some public servants were mentioned to remove them from any financial embar­ to me and I was asked to say whether they rassment or strain, and I say it is embarras­ are men who are extremely well qualified sing to Mr. Wright or any other person to and are entitled to re-ceive the salaries that find himself in the invidious position, because they are being paid, I would say of Government action, that such observations unhesitatingly and unreservedly that are necessary in the direction to which I have they are. But I must confess that referred. I do not know from any personal As I say, I prefer to hope that the Govern­ examination of Mr. Wright's judgments or ment will realise the position it is in in dis­ decisions how well qualified he is. The criminating in a position of this responsi­ Minister has told me that he is a man of bility. I know from my own general know­ very great gifts, and I hope that is so. ledge and from specific inquiries I have I do not wish to suggest in any way that made from the hon. member for Warrego there is argument among members of the and the hon. member for Barcoo and others Opposition about this matter, but I will on this side who have had more experience not go as far as saying, as the hon. member than I have had in land matters and court for Port Curtis did, that because Mr. Wright functions, that this office should and does had been a member of a commission that rank as a very high Government appoint­ altered electoral boundaries, his appointment ment. For that reason I should be loth to as President of the Land Court was neces­ take away from the occupant of the office sarily his reward from the Government. I the benefits that should accrue to a person do not think I have questioned the Minister's possessing his qualifications. As I say, the integrity in any way, and I should not like private advice tendered to me about the to think that he would appoint a person to gentleman's qualifications is that they are such a position unless he felt in his heart indeed of a very high order. If he has that that person was well qualified to carry those qualifications to the extent that I out the duties entrusted to him. In fairness believe he does, he will no doubt carry to Mr. Wright, I think I should say that, out the duties of his high office to the generally speaking, I do not believe that credit both of the administration and of the duties of the President of the Land himself. I am sure that he will be just Court fit him particularly to be a member as zealous as any other occupant of this of a commission dealing with electoral important position and bring to it the bene­ boundaries. I can understand the Surveyor­ fits of his high qualifications, great know­ General and the Electoral Registrar being ledge, and industry, and high personal prob­ members of such a commission, but I do not ity and integrity. I believe he has those think that a member of the Land Court qualifications. ordinarily would have any special qualifica­ If we are to get such men for these tions for appointment to it. It could prove positions we should not take from them an embarrassment to him, no matter how any of the benefits that are available to impartially he approached his task. I people discharging comparable duties else­ say deliberately that we think that at where. I desire to be fair to both the Government instigation the redistribution Minister and Mr. Wright, but at the same was gerrymandered in some respects. It time the observations of those who have may be said that in saying that I am spoken before me have been fair and I reflecting on the persons on that commission hope we will not be placed in the position but I think that pressures are applied-- ' of having to oppose this clause. Mr. Hewitt interjected. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Mr. DUGGAN: The hon. member is (5.14 p.m.): My thanks go to the Leader entitled to, and he has expressed himself of the Opposition for his sweet reasonable­ along those lines. Members of his Govern­ ness. In view of what has been expressed here, I am concerned that, through trying ment, when in Opposition, hurled these to deal with the matter with some urgency, charges at us. Therefore, if it is improper perhaps something has been done that might for me to make that observation now it place men from outside at an advantage was equally improper for Government mem­ compared with men from inside the Public bers when they were in Opposition to make Service, when one should be equivalent to accusations against members of electoral the other. I am prepared to meet the hon. boundaries commissions on those occasions. gentleman's wishes and not push him to Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1841

the stage of having to agree to this clause. I am prompted to query this matter fur­ On what he said of my pious platitudes, ther because I know that at the present that was not-- time strong agitation is being whipped up to ensure that in future members of the Mr. Duggan: Press the good things I said staff of the Department of Public Lands, about you. even though they may have given long Mr. FLETCHER: I am too modest for years of faithful and efficient service are that. I could go so far as to move that debarred from being appointed to the consideration of Clause 31 be postponed. Land Court. I do not know whether those There may be nothing we can do about it. representations have already reached the Indeed, probably there will be numerous Minister. I read in a provincial newspaper matters that my officers and Cabinet throw quite recently that very prominent members up as side issues that have not been raised of a certain branch of the United Graziers' here. But let us come to that. I will be Association were sponsoring this move. honest with the Committee and say that if it Their argument means that although a man is not possible to do what is suggested, I will may have rendered efficient and loyal service come back and say so. After all, that is the to the Department of Public Lands, he cannot way I want to do it; I want to deal with act in a judicial capacity or in an impartial these people justly. I move- manner if appointed to the Land Court. To my mind that is a very strong reflection on the 'That further consideration of Clause men who have been appointed from the 31 be postponed." department to the court in years gone by. It Motion agreed to. seems extraordinary to me that otherwise intelligent men should publicly make such Clause 32, as read, agreed to. a pronouncement and publicly sponsor a move Clause 33-Removal from office· suspen- to prevent experienced officers of the Depart­ sion- ' ment of Public Lands from being appointed to the Land Court. In future, they want Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) members of the court to be appointed by (5.16 p.m.): This clause deals with the the Justice Department. That seems to be removal from office or suspension of mem­ in sympathy with the thoughts of the present bers of the Land Court. Although I agree Government, as indicated by the Minister that !n the main with the proposal outlined, there legal men must occupy the position of ~~ one nspect that arrests my attention par­ President of the Land Court. These people tlcularly. I refer to the paragraph reading- are now taking it one step further by sug­ "Provided that at any time when Parlia­ gesting that the Justice Department should ment is not sitting the Governor in make appointments to the Land Court and Council may suspend any member of the that efficient and experienced members of Court from his office on the ground of the Department of Public Lands should be proved misbehaviour or incapacity in debarred from holding office as members which case a statement of the groun'd of of the Land Court. I strongly disagree with such a proposal. If strong pressure is brought su~pension shall be laid before the Legis­ lative Assembly within seven days after to bear on the Government, and the Gov­ the commencement of the next session ernment accepts this unfair proposal, outside thereof." legal men will be appointed to the court for a minimum period of 15 years. If it is That indicates that the Governor in Council proved that they are not sufficiently experi­ may suspend a member of the Land Court enced or capable, the obligation is on Parlia­ on the grounds of proved misbehaviour or ment to dismiss them from office and the incapacity. . Subsequently the Legislative procedure laid down in the clause is rather Assembly w1ll be called upon either to con­ complicated. I think that if the Governor in firm the suspension or dismissal or have the Council is accepting the responsibility of member of the court reinstated. But the Bill appointing members of the Land Court, it contains no provision as to how the Govern­ must accept the responsibility of removing ment shall prove the misbehaviour or them from office. I do not think that, as incapacity of a member of the Land Court. members of this Assembly, we should be I presume that it would have to be by way called upon to endorse, or reject, any judicial of some judicial proceeding. If a judge of procedures which are undertaken to prove the Supreme Court, or somebody else act­ whether members of the Land Court are ing in a judicial capacity, passes judgment on a member of the Land Court I do not guilty of misbehaviour or incompetence. I think it is right that this Parliam'ent should think that is an important question. It has be subsequently asked either to confirm or a tremendous bearing on the future set-up reject that judicial finding. I think this of the Land Court and the happiness of its clause might well be deferred in order that members. I should like to hear the Minister t~e position can be clarified, and the obliga­ express his views on the points I have raised. tiOn removed from members of this Assem­ bly to confirm or reject a case of proved Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ misbehaviour,. if . ~isbehaviour is proved by Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) way of any JUdicial proceeding. I think it (5.22 p.m.): I am as concerned as the hon. is an all-important matter. member over the suggestion, which he says 1842 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill was voiced in a provincial paper as emanat­ provided for. think it is completely within ing from a member of the U.G.A., that the responsibilities of the executive Govern­ experienced members of the Department of ment of the time to take such action as it Public Lands should not be appointed to the shall see fit either to get rid of him and Land Court. I think that is an absolutely report it and justify it, if necessary, or to outrageous reflection on members of my reinstate him and justify that, if necessary. department and those members who have That is consistent with the responsibility hitherto graduated from the department to of executive Government, as I see it, in the court. They are jolly fine gentlemen who relation to the important position of a have done a very good job for the State. I member of the Land Court. resent as much as the hon. member the implied reflection in that resolution if it was Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (5.27 p.m.): I a resolution. I certainly do not' subscribe cannot find myself in complete agreement to it in any way. I do not think there is with the hon. member for Carnarvon on this, anything better than a background of aood because I think it is a case where Parliament earnest, and sincere work in the Deparhuent should retain the right to deal with the final of Public Lands. The men would not get dismissal of a person holding such an import­ to the Land Court unless they were able ant office as that of member of the Land administrators or had carried out excellent Court. Just as I argued that it was a good work in the department. thing that the Chairman of tlre Land Administration Commission should have been In regard to the other matter that was subject to this Parliament, so I argue that raised, the provision has not been changed point in favour of this case. by the Bill. It was taken from the Act. It is true, as the :Minister says, that this Mr. Hilton: I know, but this will be a is a very old provision. In the 1910 Act it new Act and we want it to be up to date. was Section 23, and that was taken from the 1897 Act, in which it was Section 25. lf Mr. FLETCHER: I am surprised that this anything, there is some improvement in the matter should be raised by one who adminis­ protection of the individual. Whereas in the tered the d~partment for years and years old section it was provided that the and ~ho d1d not find anything to take Governor in Council might suspend any exceptiOn to, but who now canvasses it as member of the court from his office for a possible weakness or danger. inability or misbehaviour, in this case it is An Opposition Member: That does not provided that he may be removed from his mean that it should go on for ever. office on the ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity. After that part, there has Mr. FLETCHER: It has been the practice been practically no change in the other two for a long time, and so far as I know the paragraphs of the section in the 1910 Act. admin!stration has not been embarrassed by So it will be necessary to prove a man·s any difficulty connected with it. It provides incapacity and to prove his misbehaviour. for the method of removal from office of That is only right. If he is to be removed members of the court by the Legislative from office there must be some sort of Assen:bly on . the ground of proven mis­ inquiry, no matter how the Governor in be~aviOur or mcapacity. The removal pro­ Council may decide to conduct it, whether it VISIOns are usual in the case of holders of be a departmental inquiry or some otlrer form commissions. The provision is for the of inquiry witlr powers to investigate any suspension of any member of the Land complaint that may have been made against Cc;mrt fro.m his of!ice on the ground of proven the member of the court. If the report of misbehaviOur or mcapacity. that inquiry shows that his misbehaviour or incapacity is proved, there are grounds for T~e claus~ goes on to say that, if the his suspension from office as a member of Parliament IS not in session it shall be the Land Court. I think that I would be advised within seven days of r~-assembly, or inclined to insist that this Parliament should words to that effect. have tire last say on his final removal from I t~ke it that the executive Government of office. the time would be responsible for makina the proper inquiries as to the background Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) (5.30 of t~e alleged defect or misbehaviour that p.m.): No procedure is set out in the Bill reqmres tire person to be peremptorily for the proving of misbehaviour. Even relieved of office. If he was interested in though, in the incident referred to earlier, bringin~ certain circumstances to light and to a royal commission heard evidence conclu­ the notice of the executive Government at sively proving misbehaviour, the Executive the time, and. if he could do so forcefully Council of the day was charged with all eJ?.c;mgh, then It would be within the responsi­ sorts of unpleasant things when it i:ook action bility of the executive Government to do following those charges. something about rectifying the mistake. Mr. Aikens: There was no proven charge. I do not know if the hon. member sug­ He was not tried properly. gests there should be some other sort of embarrassing judicial inquiry into the Mr. HILTON: I do not wa.rrt to argue behaviour of a member of the Land Court, these points; I merely refer to this matter because, as far as I can see, it is not because of the remarks of the hon. member Land Bill [22 NovEMBER] Land Bill 1843

for Bundaberg. I think it is entirely wrong Mr. Bennett: What will the standard of that we should have to say, "Here is a proof be-beyond reasonable doubt? member of the Land Court, a man holding a most responsible position. How are we Mr. FLETCHER: Of course it will. going to prove his misbehaviour? Having Perhaps the Governor in Council will appoint .done that, how are we then going to place the a judge. Who knows what he will do? This whole position before the Legislative is a matter for the Government of the day, Assembly for the pronouncement of a final and I think it is a very appropriate way in decision?" which to deal with it. I think that some procedure should be Clause 33, as read, agreed to. clearly set out so that, if any such unfortunate Clauses 34 to 37, both inclusive, as read, case arises, the Government of the day will agreed to. have a well-defined and impartial method Clause 38-Assessment of rent, compen-­ of determining misbehaviour and there will sation, etc.- be no charges of violence and vindictiveness and that sort of thing such as there have Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) been on these unfortunate occasions. This (5.36 p.m.): This clause is of importance to is necessary so that members of Parliament, lessees because it deals with the assessment if they have to, can give a considered opinion of rent and compensation. The provisions on the matter. It will be recalled that a contained in it are quite good and I support certain gentleman came to the Bar of the them. However, it has come to my know­ House of his own volition, and the Govern­ ledge that in the past some lessees have ment of the day was charged with dragging been required to furnish their evidence to him around and crucifying him, which was the Court but have been unable to get the all poppy-cock. evidence of the Crown. We do not want included in the legislation Mr. Ewan: Until the morning of the relics of the past that have been in the Act court. for years and years. In the light of experi­ ence, and particularly that episode, let us Mr. HILTON: That is the point I am bring the legislation up to date and arrange making. for a certain procedure to be followed so Mr. Ewan: It is a good point, too. that everything will be carried out impartially and in a judicial manner. Mr. HILTON: The time factor should be I should like to see this clause deferred taken into consideration. I think it should to enable further consideration to be given be mandatory for both the Crown and the to it. If Parliament wants to retain the lessee to submit their evidence to the court right to have the final say in the matter, within a specified time before the case is that is all right with me. I approve of set down for hearing. Each party would then that, but I would not approve of anything have access to the other's documents for a that would place members of this Assembly reasonable time. I think it is only fair in the position of having to pronounce judg­ that if a lessee plays his part, through his agent or legal adviser, the Crown should ment on someone, whether he be a public play its part and submit its evidence. Both servant or even a Minister, without all the parties will then be on an equal footing evidence being gathered and submitted to the House in a proper way. when the case comes on for hearing by the court. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ I should like the Minister to insert a time Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) limit in the clause to ensure that the lessee (5.34 p.m.): I must agree with the hon. and the Crown shall submit the evidence and member for Bundaberg in this matter. documents that they are required to furnish to the court at least seven days before the Mr. Walsh: You are out of step if you date of hearing. are agreeing with me all the time. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Mr. FLETCHER: I have agreed with the Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) hon. member only three times in the last (5.38 p.m.): I agree with the hon. member five years. I did not agree with him on for Carnarvon, and I have issued orders that Clause 31 but I decided, as a matter of the Crown side of the case is to be made courtesy to the Opposition and convenience available as soon as the lessees are able to me, to defer it to have a good, long or willing to make their side of the case look at it. available, not necessarily as late as the I think that this is the appropriate way morning on which the court hears the case. to treat the very important office of member Lessees are not always easy to get on with. of the Land Court. I do not think that there Some of them do not even attend the court; should be an ordinary judicial inquiry. It they just let the case go ahead. I agree has to be proved. The clause says-" . . . with the hon. member that ,it is only fair on the ground of proved misbehaviour or that the information should be made avail­ incapacity", and that will have to be proved able. If the Crown has nothing to conceal, to the satisfaction of the Governor in Council, we should not make it appear that we are not to the satisfaction of a judicial tribunal. hiding something. As I said, I have issued 1844 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill orders that the Crown's information should g1vmg them a whole case. They have not be made available as soon as we can make gone to any trouble to prepare a case before­ an arrangement with the other side to make hand and if we hand them the Crown case we its information available. Does that satisfy might give them their whole case, too. I do the hon. gentleman? not think we should be loaded right to the gunwale with conditions so that we will be put Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) (5.39 at a disadvantage. Fair is fair, and if we are p.m.): It does not altogether satisfy me. It prepared to give the otherside all the rele­ is all very well for the Minister to say vant information or the basic background that he has issued instructions to officers of our case as soon as they are prepared to of his department, but I think it should give us theirs, I think that is fair enough. be obligatory for the Crown and the lessee That is what this Government, through me. to supply all the information they are has agreed to do. If we are supplanted by required to supply seven days, or 14 days, another Government, even one from the before the case is heard. I think an amend­ other side, it will be up to them but from ment to that effect should be incorporated what I have been told I believe they will in the clause. not change that practice. The Minister agrees with the point I have Clause 38, as read, agreed to. raised, as does the hon. member for Roma, Clause 39-Dispute as to boundaries- too, so what is wrong with providing a simple amendment that would make it neces­ Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (5.44 p.m.): I sary for that information to be available 14 wish to make a few observations on this days before a case is set down for hearing? clause. It is one in which I was very interested during my period as Minister for Mr. EWAN (Roma) (5.41 p.m.): If the Public Lands. Section 30 of the 1910 Act Minister could see his way clear to incor­ was taken from the 1897 Act, in which it porate in the clause something along the appeared as Section 36. It provided that lines suggested, it would give universal satis­ where there was a dispute between two faction. There have been many instances lessees the matter would be determined by in the past of lessees coming to the court the court, and it went on to say- and not seeing the Crown valuation until "In any such case the Minister may the morning of the hearing, thus being pre­ direct that a survey of the boundaries of vented from preparing a case in rebuttal. I the respective holdings with regard to have been advocating this for the last 20 which the dispute arises shall be made by years, and I am delighted to know that the an authorised surveyor appointed by the Minister agrees with the views of the hon. member for Carnarvon. Minister." I draw attention to the fact that although I think 14 days would be adequate but it that power rested with the Minister under t~e must not be lost sight of that many people old section, under the new clause the legis­ in the outback get only one mail a week. If it could be provided that they have not lation will provide that- only the right to come in and see the valua­ "Upon request by the Co~r~ :n;ade. at tion but that they also be sent a copy of any time during the course or 1ts mqmry, it, it would establish good will as between the Minister may direct that _a surveY: of the Crown and the tenants and we would the boundaries of the respective holdmgs in effect, be entering a new era. with regard to which the dispute arose be made by an authorised surveyor appointed Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ by the Minister." Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) I should say that that is an interesting (5.42 p.m.): I think this matter surely could improvement, but it simply gives effect to be left to the administrative policy of the a decision of the Land Court many years ago Government concerned. The administrative when two people with fighting names like policy of the Government at the moment is Kilpatrick and Kelly in the Cairns area had to make the valuations referred to available at some reasonable time before the court a dispute over the boundaries between their meets. The actual report dealing minutely pastoral holdings. The case was heard by an with what has gone on may or may not be acting member of the court, Mr. F. W. ready, but the salient and important Barlow, who was a qualified surveyor. He things-- took what I think was the proper action. He heard the evidence from both the lessees Mr. Ewan: The basic background. who were parties to the dispute and, having Mr. FLETCHER: Yes. I have made it heard their points of view in evidence from clear that we should not take any advantage the individual surveyors they had employed, from the fact that we have more qualified he made a request that a staff surveyor be officers, but it has to be remembered that appointed to carry out a survey. I think it frequently lessees do not co-operate very was Mr. Melior, not long since retired from well; they do not appear at the court and the department, who carried out that survey. often do not submit any evidence at all. He proceeded to do what is now incorporated Often they are not competent to prepare an in this clause, namely, to apportion the costs independent report and it may be that we are between the parties, which was fair enough. Land Bill [22 NoVEMBER] Land Bill 1845

I am interested in the final part of the Mr. W ALSH: If the hon. member knew clause, which says- the history of this he would not make such "The determination of the Court shall be a remark. He would think back to the binding upon the Crown, whether or not Jarwood case in which the department it is a party to the dispute, and upon all decided that a watercourse was the boundary persons who are parties to the dispute." between two holdings. The case eventually went to the court, which finally determined Again it is only a matter of interpretation of the language. While I agree that the costs that the departmental boundary as decided should be paid by the parties as the court in the first place was in fact the boundary. determines, and that the determination of the It was satisfactory to the department, and court in respect of the boundary between the satisfactory to both lessees. However, the two properties should be binding on the fact remains that at some time there must Crown, I should like the Minister to say have been a dispute between the two lessees whether any determination by the court on and they saw fit to refer the matter to the costs will also be binding on the Crown, court for decision. It is not always the even if the Crown is not a party to the department's fault that disputes arise. dispute. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Mini·ster for Public Lands and Irrigation) Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (5.52 p.m.): I do not think there is need (5 .48 p.m.): The case mentioned by the hon. for further discussion. If the Crown was member has been kept in mind. It has been a party to it and was adjudged guilty of part of the history. some dereliction of duty, or negligence, it would be a matter for the court. Mr. Walsh: That is only one. Clause 39, as read, agreed to. Mr. FLETCHER: Yes. The Crown could Clause 40, as read, agreed to. be a party to it, I suppose, by not having Clause 41-Powers of Court- described boundaries properly. I am only thinking of possibilities now. One case I Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) (5.53 can think of is where the Crown is to some p.m.): This clause deals with the powers of extent the reason for the dispute in that the the court. I quite expect the Minister to definition of the boundary in one particular say that the-se powers have been enjoyed deed or lease document is different from the by the court since 1910, but I think they definition in the other lease document, are far too sweeping. If the court is asked whereas the boundary is the same-the to conduct an inquiry or hear an appeal, western boundary of one property as against it has sweeping powers over any person the eastern boundary of the other. It could it may wish to examine. It can demand be that the Crown could be held by the court that people attend and produce any evidence to have contributed to some extent by a that it may wish to hear. In certain cases wrong description or bearing, or had some­ people summoned to appear before the thing to do with the delineation of a boun­ court may be obliged to give evidence and dary that is shown in an area that has not information which may act to their detri­ been surveyed. I do not think the Crown ment in another case heard subsequently is bound to pay any costs, but if I were the by the court. I know that the court must Minister responsible and I felt that it was have certain powers to ensure due discipline really the responsibility of the Crown, I and to enable it to carry out the obliga­ should want to do it on behalf of the Crown. tions imposed upon it. However, I think This is a very common-sense way of doing that if anybody ponders on the powers of it, and there is no real reason to object to the court set out in this clause he will it. I believe it is a good and workmanlike agree that they are powers which one would approach. The costs can be awarded only expect to be exercised in a police State. against the parties to the dispute. In my opinion, they are in violent contrast with the concept of the Land Court, which Mr. Duggan: That is what I wanted to as I understand it is a court where legal know. formalities are cast aside and where there is supposed to be cultivated a good relation­ Mr. FLETCHER: The hon. member ship and an informal atmosphere between knows now. the appellants and the court. I do not think that the drastic police powers con­ Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (5.51 p.m.): I tained in this clause, which were enacted in read the clause and when I saw the pro­ 1910, should be continued in their present vision that the determination of the court form. I should like the Minister to defer shall be binding upon the Crown I con­ this to see whether a more reasonable sidered the question of costs incurred as approach can be made. It is important, but part of the determination. I am now asking it is not so important that it requires the the Minister to make it clear whether this court to be vested with the powers of the provision will apply to the Crown in rela­ Gestapo. When one reads the provisions tion to costs. of Clause 42 one can readily envisage a very dangerous and depressing set-up of An Opposition Member interjected. the court. 1846 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Recently a very reputable gentleman told Mr. FLETCHER: It is appropriate, true, me about an experience he had in a hearing and justifiable. Nothing can be done to by the Land Court. The whole dispute the provision without emasculating the effec­ arose over a technical interpretation of some tiveness of the court. I think the hon. evidence that this expert had given. Of member for Warrego was fair in this matter. course, the court is not bound by the The court must have these powers in case ordinary rules of evidence. The gentleman they are needed. They are the usual powers who gave the evidence on behalf of a client of a superior court, and I think these pro­ was at once accused of giving false evidence visions are only just considering the job we to the court. When he sought to amplify expect the court to do. or explain the evidence he had given, he was Clause 41, as read, agreed to. told by the member of the court to remain silent. Though his repuation and his evidence Clause 42-Penalty for interrupting the had been challenged and he, in the normal proceedings- process, as in cases where the rules of Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) evidence apply, tried to explain the position, (7.15 p.m.): I feel in all conscience that I he was threatened by the member of the must rise to oppose this clause. While I court presiding at the time. He was in such realise that the provision is necessary in a state that he thought to himself, "I do some respects, it contains very wide and not want to be imprisoned or to have strict far-reaching powers, and I think it is true penalties imposed upon me", and he could to say that it is a denial of British justice not do justice to his client. in that it makes provision for a fine or I think it is regrettable that any member imprisonment without a right of appeal. of the court should be vested with such Whilst speaking against the provisions of dictatorial powers as enables him to intimi­ date men who give evidence on behalf of Clause 41 I referred to this clause, under their clients. That is why I make an appeal which a member of the court may interpret that these powers should be reviewed and the word "misbehaves" as he thinks fit. I framed in such a way as will be conducive did mention the story that an aggrieved to a better relationship between the appellant party told me about his being silenced by and the Crown and, of course, serve to pre­ a court member when giving evidence on vent a member of the court from adopting behalf of his client. Because of that threat a dictatorial and unfair attitude. to him, he was unable to complete his evidence, much to the dissatisfaction of his Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (5.58 p.m.): I client. cannot altogether agree with the hon. mem­ I am not going into where or when that ber for Carnarvon on this point. Similar happened, but what I am saying is true. powers to those vested in the Land Court This man approached me on the matter and by virtue of this clause were vested in the was quite astonished to find that because Industrial Court, as the hon. member will he tried to correct a wrong interpretation recall if he casts his mind back to it, under the court member had placed on some of the the old Industrial Conciliation and Arbitra­ evidence that he gave, he was told to keep tion Act. Perhaps similar powers are vested quiet and, if he opened his mouth again, he in the court under the present Industrial would be dealt with. That was a fairly Conciliation and Arbitration Act. I cannot recent occurrence. see anything particularly dictatorial about I appeal to the Minister not to tell me the clause, and I do not think it would that this has been a provision of the Act indicate that this is a police State. since 1910, as I know that perfectly well. The Land Court deals with very important I confess, however, that I did not know that matters and I think it should have full this sweeping dictatorial police provision power, as stated in the clause, to summon was in it. It was never brought to my any person as a witness and to require and notice. This is a consolidating Bill to bring compel him to bring and produce in evidence the legislation up to date, and we do not all documents and writings in his possession. want to have in it a provision that will I do not know just how the court can enable a member of the court, if he feels arrive at a correct decision unless it has peeved about the attitude of anybody giving those powers. I cannot see anything very evidence, to term it misbehaviour and wrong in the clause, and I repeat that similar threaten him with a fine and, if he cannot provisions are contained in other Acts. pay, immediate imprisonment, from which decision there is no appeal. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Are we, as a responsible body of legis­ (5.59 p.m.): There is nothing to worry about lators, going to subscribe to the granting of this wide power? If such a thing occurs in this provision. I suggest that the hon. in a court, it should be provided that evi­ member for Carnarvon is much too late. dence be taken and that anyone so dealt If he has grounds to fear the creation of a with shall have a right of appeal. I stress police State, those grounds have existed since this because of the story of a very agitated 1910. friend of mine of his appearance before the Mr. HHton: I knew you would say that. Land Court. It was a matter of technical Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1847 evidence and he tried again and again to at the hearing, they become rather objec­ correct a wrong interpretation placed on his tionable. However, I have not heard or seen remarks by the court member, and was told a case in which a member of the court has several times to keep quiet and was then had to go to the lengths envisaged in this threatened. Are we going to hamper free clause. As the hon. member for Carnarvon and informal discussion in the Land Court indicated, in exceptional circumstances it by vesting in the court such far-reaching would be just and right that a member of power as this? the court should have the power to maintain decorum and ensure that proper procedure is As I said earlier, in my view the Land followed in his court so that the hearing Court, in the main, should be an informal will not become a farce. Frankly, I cannot court. It is not bound by the rules of understand why any person who is prepared evidence. The clause provides, however, to behave himself and to go into the court that a member of the court who wrongly and submit his case in a gentlemanly way takes umbrage at a remark made by some has anything to fear. After all, he has to person in the court can threaten or victimise look for the sympathy of the court. If he that person, and, as I said, he can fine him goes into court aggressively with the inten­ up to £50 and commit him to gaol if the fine tion of interrupting proceedings, he cannot is not paid immediately. expect the court to give sympathetic con­ Although there should be some provision sideration to his problems and the case he to enable the member to maintain proper presents. decorum in the court, I do not think this I commend the provision. Never in my sweeping provision should be included in the experience since 1920 have I known of an Bill, even though it has been in the Act since instance in which a member of the Land 1910. I feel so strongly on the matter that Court has acted in a way of which we would this is one clause on which I am going to not all approve. I believe that this power call "Divide". I will not sit in this Assembly should remain in the hands of the member of and see such a dictatorial, far-reaching pro­ the Land Court who presides at the hearing. vision included in the legislation, because I feel sure that it will operate, as it has Mr. W ALSH (Bundaberg) (7 .24 p.m.): I operated in the past, on the evidence given think there is something in the point made to me, against the best interests of the court by the hon. member for Carnarvon. It is and the people who must have recourse to not good enough to say simply that this the court. provision has been included in the Act right back into ancient history. It is true that Mr. EWAN (Roma) (7.21 p.m.): It is the 1910 Act will show that this provision rather refreshing to hear the hon. member was lifted out of the 1897 Act and, in turn, for Carnarvon make that statement, because this clause has been lifted out of the 1910 this provision has been in the Land Act for Act. The wording is virtually the same, but as long as I can remember. we are now in 1962, not 1897. I have Mr. Hilton: Since 1910. frequently heard Government members, when they were in Opposition, demanding the right !VIr. Walsh: 1897. of appeal in particular Bills that were brought down by previous Governments. The previ­ Mr. EWAN: I have been familiar with ous Government, I might say, went a long it since 1920. I have attended many sittings way in providing for the right of appeal in of the Land Court, and I must say that all rnany Acts ;,.vhere it had never existed before. my experiences in the court have been happy. I have listened to members of the court, In this case it is not just a question of from Mr. Heaney right up to the present whether the court should have the power to members, and I have always found that they deal with a person who wilfully interrupts have given the parties a very fair hearing. proceedings; there is the other side of it, Aggrieved people have told me stories, but which provides that a person can be dealt when I investigated them I found that they with if he "misbehaves" himself in court. had not attempted to put their evidence before That would depend upon the temperamental the court in a reasonable or coherent way. attitude of the person occupying the position The clause deals only with any person who of member of the court. wilfully insults the court while it is sitting, or wilfully interrupts the procedeings of the I have a recollection of-I think it was court. last year-a New South Wales judge in the Equity Court, or the Supreme Court, or Mr. Hilton: Or otherwise misbehaves him­ some high judicial body, taking it upon self, and the member of the court has the himself to impose a penalty on a legal man right to interpret that. because he was very forcefully representing his client before the court. Mr. EWAN: Yes, that is correct. The person in charge of the court interprets it, Mr. Windsor interjected. but I have never heard it interpreted other than reasonably. All sorts of advocates Mr. W ALSH: The hon. member should appear before the Land Court. Some of listen to what I have to say, and if he them think they can take a rise out of every­ has any different opinions let him get to one in the court, and when they are called his feet and talk about them. That is his to order and are made to conform to the right here. Unfortunately, members of the standards laid down by the person presiding Government, and particularly the hon. 1848 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill member for Ithaca, do not exercise their clause that would have the effect of making right to speak in many debates in this the hon. member for Carnarvon look Chamber. ridiculous-even me. At this late stage I will sit down and let him try to show the Mr. Windsor: If I did, I would talk sense. Committee where any such person has the right to appeal against a decision made Mr. W ALSH: Fortunately, the hon. under this clause. member very rarely gets to his feet; he might talk so much nonsense. In the case in Mr. EWAN (Roma) (7.31 p.m.): I thank New South Wales there was eventually an the hon. member very much. I will avail appeal from that court to a higher court. myself of the opportunity. Clause 43 says- What is wrong with that? "Upon application lodged in the office To give hon. members an example of of the Registrar within twenty-one days this-and after all I am only a normal after the pronouncing of any decision of individual in the community who reads the the Court upon any matter wherefrom the papers and so on-I remember hearing, Crown or any person aggrieved may probably 10 years ago, of a court member appeal ... " sitting in the jurisdiction of the Land Court hearing appeals against valuations. Strangely The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ enough, the person who was involved was ber is reading a clause that the Committee named Mr. Menzies. He was a public servant is not dealing with. and a qualified solicitor, and he proceeded to present his own case before the Land Mr. EWAN: I was challenged to indi­ Court. Being in the position he was in, cate-- and with the knowledge he had of these The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ matters, he began to quote authorities, all ber was not challenged at all. He must deal of which were very pertinent, to justify the with the clause under consideration, not a points of view he was submitting to the clause still to come. We are dealing with Land Court member. But the member of Clause 42. the Land Court took it upon himself to more or less bludgeon the appellant into a Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ position that meant, in effect, "If you say Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) too much, I will deal with you." He then (7.32 p.m.): I have given the hon. members proceeded to ask the appellant if he was a for Carnarvon and Bundaberg credit for qualified legal man and the appellant said he being sincere in what they have been put­ was. The Land Court member then said. ting forward. But I am finding it pretty "Don't you realise that I am a barrister of difficult this time. The hon. member for 35 years' standing?" He had never practised Carnarvon pleaded emotionally that I should before the courts, but his 35 years' standing not remind him that this had been in the was sufficient for him to say that he, with legislation since 1910. Obviously it is some­ his superior knowledge of a barrister of thing that worries him a little. So it should, 35 years' standing, did not concede the right even if it is only half as bad as he seems to the appellant to submit these particular to think it is. What better test could there authorities in justification of his appeal. be of its having been innocuous and not ever Should that person have proceeded to excessively used or having been a trouble emphasise his point and then been called to anyone than that it has been there since to order by the Land Court member, had 1910 and not one word has been heard he not obeyed he would have been misbe­ agai~st it until now? If that former Minis­ having himself and-- ter for Public Lands, all the time he was in Mr. Ewan: He could have appealed. office, -did not find anything to worry about in such a provision, why should It be a Mr. W ALSH: The hon. member for worry now? The hon. member for Bunda­ Roma says that he could have appealed. berg says that this is 1962, not 1892. That That is the very point we are talking about. is fair enough, but the need to protect He had already appealed against this valua­ courts from insult and interruption is exactly tion, and the appeal was being heard by the the same now as ever it was. The provision Land Court. has not changed except as to quantum or the type of penalty for wilfully insulting the Mr. Ewan: He could have appealed court or wilfully interrupting the proceed­ against that Land Court member's decision. ings. The amount has been increased to con­ Mr. W ALSH: On what ground? form with present-day standards and to be more consistent with what is applied in Mr. Ewan: On the matter of misbehaviour. other courts of competent jurisdiction. Mr. WALSH: Is that so! I am quite happy to believe that unfor­ tunate things have happened in land courts. Mr. Ewan: Yes. I am quite happy to believe what the hon. Mr. WALSH: Now we have the superior member for Carnarvon said about the knowledge of the hon. member for Roma, unfortunate happening to the man he sym­ who has already been on his feet. What a pathises with. But that has happened in pity he was not able to quote from the courts, and it always will. Members of the Land Bill [22 NovEMBER] Land Bill 1849 court are only human. In the ordinary Mr. HILTON: I heard the hon. member course of events mistakes are sometimes quoting the second paragraph. He is entitled made. His experience is not necessarily to his opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. relevant or a guide to us in this matter. What constitutes misbehaviour would be a Mr. Dufficy: Exactly. question of fact. I do not think ordinarily Mr. HILTON: That is all right with me. it would be the subject of appeal. In the case of the man dealt with peremptorily, I do not like to hear these provisions under common law he could appeal as to his described as innocuous. The hon. member rights. Under his ordinary common-law for Roma, who is the backstop for the rights he could appeal against what he Minister in this debate, said that there was thought was a wrongful exercise of the juris­ provision for appeal against any penalty diction of the court. What the hon. members imposed under the following clause, but the are saying may sound fair enough, but I Minister said that there is provision for think it is all hooey and eyewash. I was appeal under the common law. I do not quite impressed because I thought the hon. know whom to believe, the Minister or the members were really concerned, but now I hon. member for Roma. do not think they are really concerned about The question of appeal has been stressed it. In my opinion this clause contains only at length in this Chamber, particularly by the ordinary and necessary protection for Government members when in Opposition. the court, and I commend it to the Chamber. In other parts of the Bill the right of appeal from decisions of the court is clearly Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (7.36 p.m.): specified. Why should it be necessary to Quite frankly I am not so much concerned chase through the common law, or case law, about Clause 42 or any other clause in and have to invoke the services of costly the Bill that is a re-enactment of a section barristers-who often misadvise you, in any that has been in the Act for many years. case-to ascertain what right an aggrieved It may be true that Clause 42 could be person may have, and to decide whether he the subject of criticism. Nevertheless, there can successfully prosecute an appeal against are 385 clauses in the Bill, and I am much the drastic provisions or penalties that may more concerned with the new clauses, many be imposed under this clause? I submit of which I am completely opposed to. When that the Bill fails to provide a right of appeal examining the Bill I did not pay very much against penalties that might be imposed under attention to clauses that were simply a the clause. re-enactment of provisions that were in the Hon. members will recall that, at the Act when we were in office. Let us be outset, I clearly indicated that it was necessary realistic about courts. Every court must have for the court, not necessarily the President, some power to maintain its dignity, decorum, to have power to maintain decorum in the and authority. There is no question about court and nobody objects to that; but I that. It is nothing new for the President pointed out that, in addition to the other of the Land Court to have the powers con­ matters for which a man can be dealt with, ferred upon him by this clause. After all, the question of misbehaviour comes in, and there is a provision in the last paragraph I quoted a recent case where a skilled and which states that an offender may be "called experienced valuer was prevented from doing upon to show cause why he should not be justice to his client because of a threat fined or otherwise dealt with under the that was held over him. There is no pro­ section." If he does insult the court, or vision in the Bill for appeal against a misbehave, I think the President of the Land penalty that could have been imposed in that Court is entitled to maintain the dignity, case, if the man who told me of his grievance had persisted in trying to explain decorum, and authority of the court. That the wrong interpretation that the member of applies to this court, and to other courts. the court placed on his evidence. If mem­ To be frank, I cannot see very much wrong bers of this Assembly are satisfied to accept with it. a hotch-potch position like that, if they are prepared to cast aside all tenets of British Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) (7.38 justice, I am not going to. p.m.): I am amazed to hear this clause described as innocuous. Mr. Ewan: Do you suggest that the con­ duct of the Land Court member was improper Mr. Dufficy: I did not describe it in that in sitting down that advocate like that? way. Mr. HILTON: Certainly I do. And what Mr. HILTON: The Minister described it redress has that aggrieved person? He as innocuous. I appreciate that the hon. certainly has to obey the dictum imposed member for Warrego is consoled by the upon him not to misbehave himself, not to second paragraph of the clause, but he is interrupt the proceedings of the court. In very innocently overlooking the drastic pro­ other courts-in the Supreme Court, where visions in the first paragraph. judges have such power and rightly so­ certain rules of practice and the rules of Mr. Dufficy: I did not overlook them; I evidence obtain, but in the Land Court those quoted them and said they were alright. are all cast aside. 60 1850 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Mr. Ewan: Equity and good conscience. that already determined by the court member in his judgment. It is a sorry state of Mr. HILTON: Equity and good conscience. affairs when a valuer, having been appointed If a member of the court is a little liverish, by the Governor in Council to carry out his if he does not accept the evidence put for­ duties and having sworn to do so faithfully ward in good faith, or if he tries to make under the terms of his appointment, is told, a witness look ridiculous, that is not equity "You do it the way I think it should be or good conscience. What appeal is there? done; if you do not, and proceed _to What redress has the aggrieved party? At emphasise your point of view, you are mis­ least if such a drastic provision is retained behaving yourself and can be dealt with." in the Bill, there should be a right of appeal Is there any reason why any person so in it so that an aggrieved person will not treated should not be given the right of be put to the expense of hundreds of pounds appeal? in engaging counsel and initiating proceed­ ings in the Supreme Court in order to try This may have been all right in 1897 to obtain redress. I am not arguing against and 1910, but we have gone a long way the provisions necessary to maintain the since then and, if the verbiage has not been decorum and dignity of the court, but altered since 1897, surely every hon. member against a drastic provision without any right here will agree that thinking on appeals of appeal under the Bill. generally under the Land Act has changed considerably since those days. Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (7.44 p.m.): I do not know whether the hon. member for Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (7.48 p.m.): Warrego was expressing his own views. The hon. member for Bundaberg seemed to be particularly anxious to know. whether Mr. Dufficy: Yes, I was. I was expressing my personal VIews, or those of the' Opposition generally. He Mr. W ALSH: I want to make that quite expressed surprise that members of !he clear. Was he expressing his own views as a Opposition did not oppose this. clause, seemg member of the A.L.P. Opposition, or was he that no right of appeal is provi?~d. He a_lso expressing the view of the A.L.P. Opposition stressed tlrat the clause was imtJated dunng as a whole? the last century and re-enacted in 1910. Mr. Dufficy: I expressed my view. I point out that I, too, am particularly surprised that the hon. members for Bunda­ Mr. W ALSH: I think it is regrettable that berg and Carnarvon, both former Ministers members of the A.L.P. Opposition are not for Public Lands did not see the great prepared to identify themselves with the dangers and pitfalls in this clause before it suggestion of the hon. member for Carnarvon came before the Committee tonight. I do that there should be a right of appeal in not think that it is a very sound or logical any matter that might be determined by the argument to say, "After all, this i~ 1962 and Land Court, or by the Land Appeal Court this was first placed in the Act m the last for that matter. century." I point out that these g:ntle_men The hon. member for Carnarvon gave an were Ministers for Public Lands m times instance of an advocate who was representing much more recent than 1910, and the clause a client and who, in effect, was told to sit that we are now discussing was contained down. Surely he has certain rights in a in the Land Act that they were administering. court to represent his client, but if he per­ It is only a few years ago tha~ ~he hon. sists he knows he will be dealt with by the member for Carnarvon was M1mster for member of the court under this provision and Public Lands. In fact, it is not much more he will have no redress. It is perfectly true than six or seven years ago. What is the as the Minister says, that he has a common~ use of going back to 1910, o~ to the el!d law right, but we are not dealing with those of last century, in discussing this? Why d1d things. This is an Act that we are supposed he not see the pitfalls and dangers in the to be modernising and bringing up to date. provision when he was Minister? The ramifications of the work of the Land Mr. Hilton: I will tell you why: because Court have become very extensive in the last you and others prevented me from intro­ 10 or 15 years, particularly in the hearing ducing the necessary legislation. of appeals against valuations of properties. I am reminded that in a particular case in Mr. DUFFICY: I do not want to enter the Gatton area, I think it was, a member into a dogfight with the hon. member, but of the court heard appeals and gave decisions based on the application, as he saw it, of the he knows very well that what he has said principles laid down in the Valuation of is completely and absolutely untrue. He Land Act. A valuer is obliged to carry out is trying to cover up. I think it is irrele­ his duties under that Act and value properties vant and simply a waste of time for hon. strictly in accordance with its principles. members who had an opportunity of rectify­ When this valuer appeared in court with a ing these things to talk about them now, number of cases before the same court instead of getting on to what I think are member, he was challenged and asked in the really objectionable clauses in the Bill. effect what right he, as a valuer, had to determine values on a basis different from Mr. Sullivan: Which ones are they? Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1851

Mr. DUFFICY: The ones containing the Land Court, are no more onerous and no new principles being introduced by the more offensive than are the provisions of Government. Order 84, Rule 1. To exemplify even further the power that Mr. SMITH (Windsor) (7.51 p.m.): Clause the judges of the Supreme Court exercise 5 of the Bill defines the court as being "The over persons who commit contempt in the Land Court preserved, continued in exis­ face of or in the hearing of the court, tence, and constituted by and under this Act". So when we come to Clause 42, I shall read Rule 5. the court mentioned in that clause must be Opposition Members interjected. the Land Court. Mr. SMITH: At the rate of progress so It is strange to see the hon. member for far, if we are going to have unimportant Carnarvon showing such concern about the submissions made on unimportant clauses, we provisions that are set forth in Clause 42, will be here for a long time. I am making because if we go back a little further into these submissions to point out how futile history, to 1900, and look at the Rules of some of the arguments have been. the Supreme Court, we find that they make provision for dealing with people who are Order 5 reads- in contempt of court. I shall read the "When a notice of motion for the com­ rule because it may perhaps answer some mittal of a person for contempt has been of the objections that have been voiced filed, if it is made to appear to a Judge in the Chamber this evening. that the accused person is likely to abscond I think the hon. member for Carnarvon or otherwise withdraw himself from the will agree that a person who wilfully insults jurisdiction of the Court, the Judge may the court would be guilty of contempt in by warrant under his hand direct that the the face of the court, and that anyone who accused person shall be arrested and wilfully interrupts the proceedings of the detained in custody until he gives security court would also be guilty of contempt in in such sum as the Judge may direct to the face of the court. Order 84, Rule 1, appear in person and answer the charge of the Rules of the Supreme Court says- and submit to the judgment of the Court." "Contempt in the Face of the Court.­ Mr. Davies interjected. When a person is alleged to be guilty of contempt of Court, committed in the face Mr. SMITH: The hon. member had better of the Court, or in the hearing of the be careful. He would be a good subject Court, the Court may, by verbal order, for contempt in certain circumstances. direct him to be arrested and brought Mr. Mann: Don't you think there should before it forthwith, or the presiding Judge be more informality in the Land Court than may iS"Sue a warrant under his hand for in the Supreme Court? the arrest of the accused person." Mr. SMITH: I cannot see any reason why If the hon. member for Carnarvon is con­ one court should operate any differently sistent, that provision should cause him to from another. Both courts are supposed have serious qualms about the operation of to dispense justice. While we have in the the Supreme Court, which has been function­ Supreme Court such a rule, I submit no-one ing in this State under that particular rule. can take exception to its appearing in the I have not heard any murmur of dissent Land Act, relative to the Land Court. from the hon. member for Carnarvon. He does not contend that that is not the posi­ Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (7.56 p.m.): I tion. Rule 1 goes on to say- want to refer to the attitude of the hon. "When the accused person is brought member for Warrego in this matter. He said before the Court, the Court shall cause that when I was Minister for Public Lands him to be informed orally of the nature I overlooked this matter. It is not that I of the contempt with which he is charged, am making excuses-! am not-but this and shall require him to make his defence country was at war then and there were not to the charge, and shall after hearing him many amendments of the Land Act or any proceed, either forthwith or after adjourn­ other Act during that period. ment, to determine the matter of the charge, and shall make such order for the Mr. Dufficy: There was no war when the punishment or discharge of the accused hon. member for Carnarvon was Minister person as may be just." for Public Lands. There is another little rider to this rule, Mr. W ALSH: I am not concerned about which says-- whether there was a war then. The hon. "The accused person shall be detained member for Warrego must understand that it in custody until the charge is disposed of, is almost 20 years since I was Minister for unless the Court allows him to be dis­ Public Lands, and that is going back a long charged on bail." way. We are now dealing with the consoli­ dated matter, and, irrespective of the failure So I remind members of the Committee of the hon. member for Nash, or Gympie as that the provisions contained in Clause 42 it was at the time, Mr. Dunstan, or Mr. of the Bill, which deals simply with the McCormack, or Mr. Deacon from the Country 1852 Land Bill ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Party Government, or any other Minister wilfully interrupts tl:re proceedings. Nobody who failed to look into these things when said anything against that clause. Virtually these particular sections become part of all the Acts connected with courts of law the consolidated law, we are entitled now contain this protection. Such provisions are to question any matter from Clause 1 to necessary. My attention has been drawn to Clause 385 that is included in that law. the fact that similar provisions are contained in the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration The hon. member for Windsor gets up in Act. The Regulation of Sugar Cane Prices that very knowledgeable way of his and takes Act is another one. The hon. member for us back to 1900, quoting the Rules of Court Bundaberg had a good deal to do with that. as they apply to the Supreme Court. He He must take a great deal of responsibility did not tell us that there was any right for what is in tl:rat Act and what it implies. of appeal against any decision that might be made by the Supreme Court in those Section 106 of the Industrial Conciliation matters that were dealt with in the Rules of and Arbitration Act provides- Court. He told us that the Supreme Court "Any person who has been summoned had the right to deal with contempt, but to appear or who has appeared before the I think a pupil in Grade 8 would probably Court or the Commission as a witness and know that. I will go a little further and who shall (without just cause proof tell him that the Industrial Court has powers whereof shall lie upon him)-- to commit for contempt, and that the Central (a) disobey the summons to so appear; Cane Prices Board also has powers to commit or for contempt. (b) refuse to be sworn or to make Mr. Annstrong: And no right of appeal. affirmation or declaration as a witness; or Mr. WALSH: If the hon. member wants to rectify that, when the Minister is bringing (c) refuse to answer any question in a consolidation of those laws those are which he is required by the Court or the the things that should be looked at. There Commission to answer; or were quite substantial reasons for the intro­ (d) refuse to produce any books or duction of that provision. documents which he is required by the Court or the Commisison to produce. The only matter on which I can agree with the Minister is that the individual has shall be guilty of an offence and liable to common-law rights. In this clause we are a penalty not exceeding one hundred endeavouring to have inserted the principle pounds." of a right of appeal, and I should imagine There is not much difference in principle that the Labour Party would fight for that with most courts of law, and they need this in any circumstances. protection. I am advised by my legal officers Mr. Ewan: Why didn't you put it in? that if a person feels that he has a grievance over a penalty that is excessive or improper, . Mr. W ALSH: When dealing with this Bill, he has rights to appeal by some legal If the excuse of the Minister and the hon. process or other. It is ridiculous to suggest member for Roma is that nothing is now that we have to write into this not-terribly­ ,done because it was not done before, why not important provision a right of appeal which pick out every section of the 1910 Act and is implied under a man's ordinary rights. the various amendments to the principal Act Like the hon. member for Warrego, I of that year and incorporate them all in the really think I am entitled to protest at this Bill and say, "Here it is; we have decided stage at such a wilful holding up of the not to alter anything. We are going to proceedings. carry on." While I agree with the hon. Question-That Clause 42, as read, stand member for Warrego that there are som~;: part of the Bill-put; and the Committee very important variations of the original divided. legislation yet to come, the right of appeal of the individual is a very important principle. Resolved in the affirmative under Stand­ ing Order No. 148. Hon. P. J. R. HILTON: Mr. Taylor-­ Clause 43-Court may rehear matter­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. gentle­ Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (8.6 p.m.): I man has exhausted his time. He has risen three times. could not miss this opportunity of drawing the attention of Government members, and members of the A.L.P. Opposition to the :'J~m. A. R. FL~TCHER (Cunningham­ Mmister for Public Lands and Irrigation) principle contained in this clause. The last (8.0 p.m.): I thing the Committee's tolerance paragraph reads- has been pretty severely strained. The hon. "An appeal shall lie from the decision members are now taking umbrage at on such rehearing in the same manner something that they have taken in their stride as if it had been a decision on a first for years. Only a few minutes ago they hearing of such matter." approved of Clause 28, which provides In other words, where the court has deter­ penalties against any person who wilfully mined a particular case and it is thought insults a commissioner sitting in court or there should be a rehearing, there is an Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1853

appeal against the rehearing. Here is a case not agree with the lout who tries to inter­ where we are dealing with the squatters' rupt proceedings; I do not agree with the wealth, their property interests, and so on. person who misbehaves himself, and I do The Government is prepared to concede a not support the person who tries to interrupt right of appeal on this occasion, but when a correct legal proceeding or to interrupt an individual is being punished he is not the business of a properly-constituted legal allowed a right of appeal. tribunal. To suggest that, because a penalty is inflicted on a person, he must obviously A Government Member: Why do you be victimised, is to say that the officer say that? charged with the responsibility of conducting the court is inefficient and vindictive, and I Mr. W ALSH: I say it with the qualifica­ am not prepared to say that. tion that any layman knows, and a Grade A child knows, that common law gives one Hon. P. J. R. IDLTON (Carnarvon) (8.11 some rights, but if the common law is to p.m.): I support the submissions and con­ give all these rights, why write this para­ tentions of the hon. member for Bundaberg. graph into the clause? If the selector or I want to make my position quite clear. the lessee has a right of appeal under the I held the portfolio of Public Lands and common law against the court's decision in Irrigation for approximately 12 months and any matter involved in the case, why is it was my intention to introduce a con­ there any necessity to include an appeal pro­ solidating measure. Of course, when I said vision, if that is the principle being argued I was prevented from doing that, I was by the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt? referring to the political history of this State Mr. Hart: You are just talking through in 1957. your hat, although you have not got it on. Mr. Dufficy: I am glad you have made that clear. Mr. WALSH: I know the hon. member does not like my point of view, but he can­ Mr. HILTON: I -wanted to avoid any mis­ !'ot deny t~at there is no right of appeal interpretation of my remark. m the previous clause and he must admit that in this clause there is a specific right As I said earlier, I know that that section of appeal. That is all that was asked for is in the Act. I quite agree that it has in the previous clause. The clause under been there for years and years while Govern­ discussion is the clause on which the hon. ments of both political parties have been member for Roma tried to convince the in power. I admitted quite candidly that, Committee that there would be a right of during the short time I was Minister for appeal against the matter that was being Public Lands, it was never brought to my dealt with in the previous clause. Again notice and I did not read it. I appeal to the Minister: for goodness sake But, as we are now dealing with the right let him get it out of his head that we are ;Iealing with principles that operated back of appeal, I am making the point that there m 1865, 1868, or under the various amend­ is a great difference between legal pro­ ments to the Land Act in 1897 and 1910. ceedings in the Supreme Court or the Again let me emphasise that he should be Magistrates Court and proceedings in the accepting suggestions from either side of Land Court, and always we have had the the Chamber which will bring the legislation concept that the informality associated with up to date with conditions that operate in the Land Court was a dominant factor in 1962. creating the proper relationship between the Crown and its tenants. Although, as the Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ hon. member for Warrego argues, it is a legal Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (8.8 p.m.): I have some amendments that tribunal embellished with all the legal pro­ precede the appeal section of this clause. cedures and practices-and it can be that if the member of the court elects to enforce Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (8.9 p.m.): It it-it can, on the other hand, be an entirely appears that the hon. member for Bunda­ informal court, as it has been on many b.erg wishes to prosecute further this ques­ occasions. We have witnessed the spectacle twn of appeal. I want to make my position of members of the court talking freely with perfectly clear. I hold no brief whatever­ the lessees without regard to any rules of and I think I can speak for all members of evidence or to any legal formality whatever. !he Opposition--:-for a person who wilfully mterrupts or misbehaves himself in court. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I think we have To suggest for one moment that he would be dealt with that subject fully enough. victimised or treated unfairly is simply cast­ ing a reflection on the member of the court, Mr. IDLTON: Quite so. Finally, the or the president, who is presiding. I believe rehearing of a case as provided for in this that, under Clause 43, where the court has clause also gives a right of appeal. I reached a decision that may not be correct in law, just as there is an appeal against support that entirely and I submit that it the decision of an industrial magistrate, reinforces the argument put forward in obviously an appeal should lie in that case, respect of the clause that has already been and I agree completely with it. But I do dealt with. 1854 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Clause 43, as amended, agreed to. (8.14 p.m.): The debate is getting more and more tedious. Clause 44-Constitution of Land Appeal Court- Mr. Walsh: Are you getting tired? Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Mr. FLETCHER: Not at all. Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) The hon. member for Bundaberg (8.19 p.m.): I move- vocife·rously asks why there should be a "On page 49, line 37, omit the word­ right of appeal in this case when there was 'twenty-eight' no right of appeal in the previous clause. and insert in lieu thereof the word- It is altogether different. There is no 'forty-two'." common-law right of appeal in the second; there is in the first. The This amendment restores the present time common-law right of appeal against a pre­ limit for lodging appeals to the Land emptory de-cision of a magistrate or a judge Appeal Court. It has been felt on recon­ is not something that deals with this pro­ sideration that it may be more equitable to vision under the Land Act. With respect allow the time limit of six weeks to remain. to this matter, there should be a right of Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. appeal because it should be treated as an original hearing. A rehearing is granted only Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ when there is new evidence available so that Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) it becomes a completely new hearing, and (8.20 p.m.): I move- there should be a right of appeal against the "On page 50, lines 1 to 8, omit the decision. words- I am completely unsympathetic to the 'Provided that the Land Appeal Court attitude adopted in this matter, because I may allow an appeal to proceed where cannot think that the hon. members con­ the appellant satisfies it that his failure cerned are sincere in it. to serve notice as prescribed by this I have a couple of small amendments. I subsection was due to circumstances move- beyond his control, and that notice as "On page 47, line 8, omit the word­ prescribed by this section was served 'twenty-one' upon all persons directly affected by and insert in lieu thereof the word- the decision not later than fourteen days 'twenty-eight'." after the expiration of the limitation of time prescribed by this subsection.' " This comes about consequent upon the restoration of the time for the lodging of Amendment agreed to. appeals to the Land Appeal Court from the Clause 44, as amended, agreed to. Land Court from the proposed 28 days to Clause 45-Appeal to Full Court on ques­ 42 days. We had thought of shortening the tions of law- length of time allowed for the lodging of appeals because they do tend to drag on Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ but, having fully considered it, it was Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) decided to restore the provision in the Act (8.20 p.m.): I move the following amend­ for reasons which, after hearing further ment:- evidence on the matter, seemed good to us. "On page 52, line 8, omit the word­ Amendment (Mr. F1etcher) agreed to. 'twenty-eight' Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ and insert in lieu thereof the word­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) 'forty-two'." (8.17 p.m.): I move- Amendment agreed to. "On page 47, line 14, omit the word­ 'twenty-one' Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) and insert in lieu thereof the word­ 'twenty-eight'." (8.21 p.m.): I move the following amend­ ment:- Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (8.18 p.m.): "On page 52, line 29, after the word The concluding part of the clause provides 'Registrar', insert the words- for an appeal against the decision as if it 'or a justice of the peace'." had been a decision on a first hearing. All I did was illustrate that there was in this Subclause (4) as worded in the Bill would clause a right of appeal as compared with require an appellant to come to Brisbane the previous clause. Under no circumstances to sign his recognisance. That was not did I at any stage try to justify the attitude intended. The words to be inserted, "or a of a person whose behaviour warranted justice of the peace", ensure that an appellant such treatment. All I was trying to do was can sign his recognisance anywhere in Queens­ show that any person dealt with by the land; but, quite properly, a surety must be court in any way should have the right of determined by a member or a registrar of appeal as provided for under this clause. the court. Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1855

Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. Amendment agreed to. Clause 45, as amended, agreed to. Clause 50, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 46 to 49, both inclusive, as read, Clause 51, as read, agreed to. agreed to. Clause 52-Additional requisites of open­ Clause 50-Matters to be specified in ing notification for preferential pastoral opening notification- holding- Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ ~~m. A. R. FL~TCHER (Cunningham­ Mmister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (8.22 p.m.): I move the following amend­ (8.26 p.m.): I move the following amend­ ment:- ment:- "On page 55, line 16, omit the words- "On page 56, line 37, omit the words- 'or held'." 'settlement farm lease,'." The amount of land a person holds under The amendment makes the prohibition which settlement farm lease tenure is excluded in may be imposed by an opening notification calculating the area included in the maxi­ as t~ the nJ!mber .of blocks a person may mum milage which may be held under pre­ acqmre applicable m respect of applications ferential pastoral holding tenure. On recon­ only. A .similar prohibitio_n applies in respect sideration it has been thought too severe of select10ns, and here It was particularly to count farming lands against holdings of anomalous that where, say, six blocks were pastoral lands. This would prevent people opened by the one notification, a person who having fattening properties on the coast and was otherwise qualified could never hold still retaining their western grazing land on more than one of those, but the adjoining retiring to the coast. The prohibition has holders, if otherwise qualified to the group b.een removed in the case of grazing selec­ of six, could hold their own and one or tions (Clause 91 (2) ) and as the preferential ~~re of th~ six. No doubt the prohibition IS mserted m the law to prevent the original pastoral holding is analogous tenure it is holder of the area-the traditional squatter appropriate that the similar prohibition be -from re-acquiring parts of his former hold­ removed in this case. ing which had been made available for Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (8.27 p.m.): I selection. Procedure as well as times have should like the Minister to explain this clause changed. Pri~rity . blocks are no longer a little more clearly. He indicated that opened by notificatlOn. In practice too the person who held, say, an agricultural this bar imposed by a notification 'as t~ farm on the coast would be still open-is subsequent holding raised difficulties for legal that what the Minister said? That a person advisers and made it necessary when con­ who held an agricultural farm on the coast sidering transfer to refer back to notifications of 2,560 acres would be eligible to hold up to 30 years old. It was a matter of or enter a ballot for a developmental pastoral administrative difficulty. lease? Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. Mr. F!etcber: He would not be able to enter a ballot if he had more than half a ~~m. A. R. FL~TCHER (Cunningham­ Mmister for Pubhc Lands and Irrigation) living area. (8.23 p.m.): I move the following amend­ ment:- Mr. DUFFICY: That is my point. If he had 2,560 acres on the coast, which is "On page 55, line 19, omit the words- the average agricultural farm, in many cases 'or held'." ~hat would represent a living area, certainly The reasons for the amendment are exactly m excess of 50 per cent. of a living area. the same as those that I gave on the previous Consequently, would it debar him from hold­ amendment. ing a developmental pastoral lease? Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. Mr. Fletcher: No, it would not debar him from buying one, but he could not go into Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ a ballot. Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (8.24 p.m.): I move the following amend­ Mr. DUFFICY: I see. He can purchase ment:- and hold one. "On page 55, line 23, omit the words­ Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. 'or hold'." Clause 52, as amended, agreed to. Amendment agreed to. Clause 53-Term of lease-

~~· A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (8.29 p.m.): I Mmister for Public Lands and Irrigation) am not so greatly concerned about this (8.25 p.m.): I move the following further clause seeing that it does provide for ter­ amendment:- minable lease whereas other clauses of the "On page 55, line 26, omit the words­ Bill provide for freehold, to which I am 'or held'." completely opposed. But I do think a term 1856 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

of 50 years for a lease is slightly too long. Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (8.33 p.m.): I It is very difficult for the Department of rise because I had something to do with Public Lands, or anybody else, to say with the clause when it was brought down in the any degree of certainty what might happen 1959 Bill. The clause is very clear. It or what the need or demand for land might says- be in half a century. Despite the fact that "The term of lease of a pastoral develop­ it does apply to pastoral developmental ment holding or preferential pastoral holdings, I still think that that length of holding shall be determined by the lease is unjustified. I do not know why Minister, and shall in no case exceed there should be any departure from the thirty years." usual term of lease, namely, 30 years. If at the end of that time conditions justified In the last paragraph it says- a renewal of the lease it could be granted. "Provided that a term exceeding thirty There is no doubt about that. Once a term years shall be determined only if the of 50 years has been granted in a lease, it lease is made subject to very extensive cannot be altered. I think that the Minister developmental conditions, involving abnor­ mally high expenditure." ~ill agree that half a century is a long time. It would be impossible for him, or What we had in mind at the time was some­ anyb?

acres under one or more of the follow­ after years in the West from retammg their ing tenures, namely fee-simple, any western properties. I think that is fair tenure conferring the right of freehold enough and I think we have all been fairly purchase, or perpetual lease selection familiar with it on this side of the Chamber tenure,'" because it was canvassed at some length. The object of the prohibition was to prevent Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (8.38 p.m.): the undue aggregation of land, and I am Mr. Taylor-- still in the corner against the undue aggrega­ Mr. Smith interjected. tion of land, especially in view of the provision permitting conversion of settlement Mr. WALSH: I know that. I do not know farm leases and grazing settlements to per­ whether the hon. member for Windsor has petual lease selection or freehold. Statistics regard for the disqualifications that appear show, however, that a total of only 106 in some of the later clauses. Will he be settlement farm lease-s and grazing selections sufficiently interested in them to argue that have been converted to date, 61 to free­ there is inconsistency in this matter? holding and 45 to perpetual-lease selection. This paragraph provides-- There is presently, therefore, no need to "the holder of land of an area or aggre­ legislate against aggregation. There may gated areas of or exceeding two thousand be in the future, and I have a strong feeling five hundred and sixty acres under one that there will be. or more of the following tenures, The position will be watched carefully namely fee-simple, any tenure conferring and eve·n now the advisability of introducing the right of freehold purchase, or per­ another type of perpetual lease tenure is petual lease selection tenure." under consideration so that perpetual lease It is proposed to omit that paragraph. I selection tenure may be retained for pre­ take it that that is the amendment, if I have dominantly farming and dairying lands and the confirmation of the hon. member for a new type of perpetual lease grazing tenure Windsor? adopted for conversion of predominantly grazing lands. This wilJ permit a more The CHAIRMAN: That is the amendment. rational use of tenure'S and facilitate adminis­ You have the confirmation of the Chair. tration of converted leases. Mr. WALSH: The hon. member for The main point that we took into account Windsor seems to be taking such an interest was that, if someone had a property in the in this matter that I think that, with his West and wanted to buy a small property alleged legal knowledge, he might give us on the coast, he would, by our new pro­ the benefit of it. visions, be precluded from doing so. If Mr. Smith: I will give it my blessing, if he wanted to buy a small fattening property that is any comfort to you. here to supplement his grazing property, he would by the new provision, be precluded Mr. WALSH: After all, if the 2,560 acres from doing so. We believe it is eminently is to be regarded as a living area I do common sense. not know whether this principle is to operate While, as I said just a while ago, I am in other parts of the legislation. All I very keenly desirous of avoiding the com­ am concerned about is that, in this case, plications of aggregation, I think at the where, as it was incorporated in the clause moment this is a wise provision and if there submitted to the Committee, it was a dis­ is, in the effiuxion of time, clear evidence qualification, now no longer will it be that we need to do something we wilJ do it. a disqualification. I hope that is the plain And I think we shall, because, after all, we English of it, too. In other words, if you have adopted a freeholding policy and under have an area of 2,560 acres under any one a freeholding policy, if it is not properly of these tenures, and it is a living area, administered, there is the inherent danger no longer will it be a disqualification. I of aggregation, and I am against it. should like to have from the Minister con­ Mr. Hilton: You cannot stop it under firmation of my interpretation of that. freeholding. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Mr. FLETCHER: You can stop anything Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) if you are in government and you want to (8.41 p.m.): This is the major policy amend­ do it, and that is what I am referring to ment I referred to this morning relating to when I say we may have to take proper the new provision disqualifying persons action. holding 2,560 acres under one or more of Mr. Burrows: Why not stop it outright the following tenures, namely, fee simple, instead of just threatening to do so in the any tenure conferring the right of free-hold future? purchase, or perpetual lease selection. Mr. FLETCHER: In the circumstances at This was reconsidered at length and it the moment, I think this is the wise and was felt that the new provision was too proper thing to do. harsh and could, for example, be restrictive of the establishment of fattening depots on Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (8.45 p.m.): I the coast to interior grazing properties or am slightly confused on what the Minister prevent persons living on a coastal property has said about the aggregation of holdings. 1858 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

I do not think that there is anything in of this kind, and the Land Act prevents any Act, including this one, that will prevent anyone who already holds a living area from a person with a preferential pastoral holding applying for a preferential pastoral holding. in the West from buying freehold tenure If sub-clause (d) is left in the clause, it will land or an agricultural farm on the coast. mean that anyone holding land of an area If there is, I will be surprised. To that or aggregated areas of or exceeding 2,560 extent, of course, there can be aggregation. acres under fee simple, any tenure conferring I suppose, as the Minister said, if one is the right of freehold purchase, or perpetual in government one can legislate to prevent lease selection tenure, will not be eligible to most things, but I would be very surprised if apply for a preferential pastoral lease. the present Minister introduced legislation Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. to prevent aggregation of freeholding. We have listened on numerous occasions Hon. A. H.. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ to hon. members opposite and their argument Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) has always been that they favour freeholding (8.51 p.m.): I move the following amend­ on the ground that every person should have ment- that sort of tenure and be able to do exactly "On page 58, line 17, omit the letters, what he likes with the land. That has been brackets and word- their argument all the time. Now we have '(b), (c) or (d)' the Minister saying that at some future date and insert in lieu thereof the letters, the Government may have to legislate to brackets and word- prevent the aggregation of freehold properties, '(b) or (c)'." or freehold in conjunction with leasehold properties. I think that the Minister is This amendment is consequential upon the simply talking with his tongue in his cheek omission of lines 6 to 12, subclause (d). when he says that, because it is completely Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. contrary to all the arguments advanced by him and those who sit behind him. I am The CHAIRMAN: Order! The next waiting to see the Minister and the Govern­ amendment submitted by tlre Minister on ment introduce legislation along those lines. line 34 follows automatically. Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (8.47 p.m.): Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Whether this amendment is or is not agreed Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) to, the clause can easily be overcome. Quite (8.52 p.m.): I move the following amend­ a lot of these people would be in a position ment- to get aggregations by merely registering "On page 58, after line 42, insert the additional companies and buying in their following paragraph- names. The most that the clause does is '(b) If, after the passing of this Act, strengthen the argument of the A.L.P against a person who is the selector or lessee the whole principle of freehold tenure. If of a grazing selection lawfully acquires I held a selection in the West and wanted a preferential pastoral holding, or the to buy 2,500 acres here, all I would have lessee of a preferential pastoral holding to do, whether or not this amendment is lawfully acquires a grazing selection, he carried, is form a company and acquire the shall notwithstanding the provisions of land in its name. paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of this section be competent to be granted That has been the basis of our argument pursua~t to Part VI. (whether in substi­ throughout. The Minister has stated that he tution for or upon expiry of the sub­ is against large aggregations of land, but sisting lease or leases) a lease or leases every act of this Government has encouraged of any of the land con:l.Prised in ~he them by making facilities available for those preferential pastoral holdmg or grazmg who want to corner land in a country in selection, and to hold the new lease which, strange as it may seem, so many offered of the grazing selection or pre­ people are hungry for land. ferential pastoral holding'." Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (8.49 p.m.): I Amendment agreed to. chink that the Committee is becoming some­ Clause 54, as amended, agreed to. what confused about this part of the clause. The correct way to read it is with the clause Clauses 55 and 56, as read, agreed to. as a whole. It deals with disqualifications Clause 57-Application for preferential for preferential pastoral holdings. If this pastoral holding- provision remained in the clause it would create some embarrassment at some time or Mr. W ALSH (Bundaberg) (8.53 p.m.): other. If a person held one of the small This is another clause requiring . some blocks of land, it would debar him from explanation from the Minister, followmg. the applying for a preferential pastoral lease. discussions that have taken place ~m prev~ous I think that it is desirable to remove it, clauses. There are various margmal notmgs seeing that that in itself could cause some here. I do not know wlrether the hon. embarrassment to the person administering member for Windsor will s31y that all _the the Act. Other provisions are made for things that are referred to m the mar_g:nal persons who are entitled to apply for land notings actually convey the true positiOn. Land Bill [22 NovEMBER] Land Bill 1859

If he will take the time, I will give him you could not get into a ballot if you were the Act of 1910 and ask him to show me a Queenslander if you owned any land, you anything in Section 41 that deals with the still could get in if you were a New South first part of this clause and anything in Welshman or a South Australian without Section 40 (d) that deals with the stocking our having the right to inquire as to how conditions, and so on. much land you may have, and it was con­ However, I am not particularly interested sidered only reasonable that if our boys in that. I am particularly interested in in Queensland had to be submitted to a test subclause 12 (a), which is at the bottom of of not owning more than half a living area page 64. It is very interesting when we it was only fair that people in other parts compare it with the discussion on the pre­ of the Commonwealth should be debarred vious clause, where we omitted a part of for the very same reason. I thing that is the clause relating to what could be a fair enough. living area. In this case, I take it that We often hear reflections on the old Queensland is part of the Commonwealth. administration in the fact that, no matter This clause says, "Anywhere in the Com­ what size squatter you were in New South monwealth," and to the extent that an Wales, you could get into a ballot and win applicant might hold land which, in the a block in Queensland, but if you were a opinion of the Commissioner is equal to 50 Queenslander you could not do that. We per cent. or more of a living area, he is have removed that anomaly, and I think it disqualified from applying. I should like to was a good thing to do. hear the Minister's explanation on that, and even tlrat of the learned gentleman from Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (8.59 p.m.): The Windsor. question arises, and must be remembered, that most of the land thrown open for selec­ Mr. Smith: For a fee. tion by the Crown caters for landless people. It is a question of what is a living area. Mr. WALSH: The hon. member is a Some of these people would probably have member of this Parliament and he is not an area of land that could be argued to be entitled to charge a fee here. I have given a Jiving area and the clause provides that, him a number of valuable opinions tonight before anyone is eligible, he must have no for nothing. more than half a living area. The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. After all, by drawing a block I suppose member should not waste time by being a man wins a prize. It is a consideration facetious. that he receives from the Crown. In the opinion of some people--often in mine Mr. WALSH: Anyone else in the Com­ during the time I was Minister-it was monwealth coming here and taking up land unfair for people who held land to enter under this preferential pastoral holding and a ballot, seeing they already had a Crown who, in the opinion of the Commissioner, block. It was not thought advisable to has an area equal to 50 per cent. of a living give them two. I think the proposal to area anywhere else in the Commonwealth, draw the line at 50 per cent. of a living is debarred. I have already said that area is reasonable. In actual practice I Queensland is part of the Commonwealth, think they will probably have considerably and in these days when the Government is more. When you get down to borderline crying out for the attraction of capital into cases it is debatable whether they have this State we are not prepared to encourage 50 per cent, 51 per cent., or 52 per cent. people who might have considerable capital, Those administering the Act have always although they may not have even a living been very generous.. Even under this area in another State, to come here. They proviso people will get into a ballot with would be debarred from applying under this more than half a living area. It is not clause for this particular type of tenure. a matter of giving Queensland preference. It is particularly interesting when one This applies equally to the whole of Aus­ recalls that many of the successful settlers tralia. The question has been raised many in the Theodore area and elsewhere in times whether it is wise to allow people Queensland came from Victoria and other from other States to compete at all. I think southern States; for instance, the hon. mem­ the fixing of 50 per cent. of a living area ber for Roma. I suppose I have to put will considerably help whoever is trusted him in the category of a successful settler with the responsibility of administering the under Labour legislation. He was able to Act. get on very well. He is one who, I should imagine, should be standing up in this Cham­ Mr. EWAN (Roma) (9.2 p.m.): The need ber and fighting against the principle that for the provision was brought about by a is incorporated in this clause. misunderstanding that existed on all hands. Queenslanders could not ballot in New South Hon. A. R. FLETCHBR (Cunningham­ Wales although New South Welshmen, Vic­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) torians, and South Australians could ballot (8.58 p.m.): I think the hon. member is in Queensland. But many people in Queens­ confused between buying land and entering land did not know that there was very little a ballot. This is a disqualification for enter­ leasehold land in those other States. When ing a ballot. In the bad old days when you appear before the board you get a 1860 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

certificate of eligibility whether you are a one time you could be debarred from enter­ Queenslander or not. In our application form ing a ballot if you held a certain area of for a ballot there was an item "Particulars land in Queensland, but if you held a similar of land held in Queensland". That did not area of land in another State you would be apply to land held anywhere else in Australia. admitted. I think that was absolutely wrong. In effect, you could hold 1,000,000 acres of I do not think there is anything wrong with land, if it were possible, in New South Wales, debarring a person who at present holds but that would not debar you from balloting 50 per cent. or more of a living area. The in Queensland. You had to fill in only par­ need of a person who does not hold ·any ticulars of land held in Queensland. As land at all is greater than that of one who long as the area and rental value per annum holds 50 per cent. of a living area. For did not exceed the statutory requirements, you that reason, I cannot see very much wrong were eligible to ballot. It was defeating with Clause 57. the whole system of closer settlement. Though we encouraged, or endeavoured to Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (9.6 p.m.): encourage, people from New South Wales Rather than confusing the issue, I think this and other States, we were not going to clause is a clarification. The other clause allow them to aggregate these huge areas in that the hon. member for Bundaberg other States and come up here to do the referred to a moment ago would debar same thing, perhaps competing in ballots anyone from making application, wherher against landless Queenslanders. he owned a living area, half a living area, or anything else. But in my opinion this Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (9.3 p.m.): I clause provides that he must not hold more do not know who is confusing whom, or who than 50 per cent. of a living area. It goes is trying to confuse the other. The previous a little further and clears up any confusion clause dealt with disqualifications for pre­ that might arise. If the other clause ferential holdings and we are still dealing remained alone it would be a bar in itself. with a clause that applies to preferential This clause states that an applicant must holdings. It is not a question of the right not have more than 50 per cent. of a living of anyone to buy land-- area. Mr. Fletcher: The right to enter a ballot. I agree with what the hon. member for Warrego said a moment ago. I think it is Mr. WALSH: In both cases it deals with much better to confine this ballot to people the same type of tenure. In the previous without any land, but the position arises discussion we were talking about the holder that if I have a little starvation block I of an area of 2,560 acres, which could pos­ sibly be a living area in some land industries should not be debarred from entering a in Queensland. No longer is it a bar against ballot. The clause states clearly that an a person having a living area of that acreage applicant must not own more than 50 per applying for a preferential pastoral holding. cent. of a living area. Mr. Fletcher: They are buying it. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Mr. WALSH: No. It says, "Disqualifica­ (9.7 p.m.): There is no need to enlarge on tions for preferential pastoral holdings." what has been said. Notwithstanding any­ Mr. Ewan: You can buy one, but you thing in the Bill, an applicant may enter a cannot ballot for it. ballot if he has less than 50 per cent. of a living area. Mr. WALSH: Where do you buy it? All I am dealing with is "disqualification" in Clause 57, as read, agreed to. one place and "application" in the second Clauses 58 to 60, both inclusive, as read, place for the same type of tenure. I cannot agreed to. understand it at all. Clause 61-Conditions generally- Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (9.5 p.m.): I Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ am becoming more and more confused now. Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) I understood that the disqualification referred (9.8 p.m.): I move the following amend- to previously applied to a person who wished ment:- to acquire-that is, purchase or acquire in "On page 68, lines 4 to 6, omit the some way-a preferential pastoral holding, if he already held a living area. As I see words- it, Clause 57 applies to applicants who enter 'shall commence on the quarter day the ballot. Applicants who enter a ballot next ensuing after the date of accep­ are debarred if, at the time they make the tance of his application' application to enter the ballot, they hold and insert in lieu thereof the following 50 per cent. or more of a living area. If words- they hold it in Queensland, or in any other 'the term of such lease shall com­ State, they are debarred from entering the mence on the quarter day next fol­ ballot described in Clause 57. As the hon. lowing the date of acceptance of his member for Roma said, it is true that at application.' " Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1861

This amendment is for purposes of clarity. Clause 73-When new lease to issue in As presently framed, it would appear that the substitution for subsisting lease- lease must issue and commence on the quarter day mentioned. Although it must commence Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ on such day, administratively it may not Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) be possible to issue the instrument of .leas.e (9.14 p.m.): I move the following amend­ ment:- on or before that day. The opportumty l'S also taken, for the purpose of consistency in "On page 78, after line 39, insert the the Bill, of adopting the words "next fol­ following new sub-clause- lowing" in lieu of "next ensuing after". '(6) Upon any resumption being effected pursuant to the provisions of Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. paragraph (f) of subsection (3) of Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ this section, the lease of the stud Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) holding in question shall be converted (9 .11 p.m.): I move the following amend­ to a lease of a pastoral holding sub­ ment:- ject in all respects to the terms and conditions prescribed by this Act as "On page 68, lines 14 to 16, omit the applicable to such class of pastoral words- lease tenure and the additional con­ 'and shall commence on the quarter ditions to which the lease was subject day next ensuing after the date of that as a stud holding shall no longer payment' apply. and insert in lieu thereof the words- 'The Registrar of Dealings shall 'and the term of such lease shall com­ make an appropriate noting upon the mence on the quarter day next follow­ relevant instrument of lease'." ing the date of such payment'." Amendment agreed to. The reasons for the amendment will be Clause 73, as amended, agreed to. apparent to the Committee. Clauses 74 to 76, both inclusive, as read, Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. agreed to. Clause 61, as amended, agreed to. Clause 77-Applications- Clauses 62 to 65, both inclusive, as read, agreed to. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Clause 66-Application for stud holding- (9.15 p.m.): I move the following amend­ ment- Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ "On page 80, line 4, after the word Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) 'lodged', insert the words- (9.12 p.m.): I move the following amend­ 'by the applicant or such agent'." ment:- "On page 71, line 20, after the word The opportunity is taken to make it clear 'application', insert the words- that an application for an occupation licence may be lodged by the applicant or his 'and the number of sires produced on agent. This is similar to the details already the holding or holdings to which the included in the analogous clauses. application relates and sold for breed­ ing purposes elsewhere than on the Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. holding or holdings to which the Clause 77, as amended, agreed to. application relates during the period Clause 78-Licenses may be granted with­ of three years next preceding the date out previous notification- of the application'." Since its introduction in 1958, this provision Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) has not made it mandatory for applicants (9.16 p.m.): I move the following amend­ for stud holdings to lodge a statement of ment- the number of sires produced on the hold­ "On page 81, line 19, after the word ing or holdings in question and sold for 'lease,' insert the words- breeding purposes elsewhere than on such holdings during the preceding three years. 'or, if before the surrender of a hold­ ing pursuant to the provisions of Clause 67 lays down certain minimum Division I. of Part VI.,'." requirements in this regard as a condition The right to obtain an occupation licence precedent to obtaining a stud lease, and it over land formerly contained in a holding is felt that such vital information should held by a lessee was never legally extended be included in the information required to to those lessees who surrendered their leases be supplied when the application is made. in the last I 0 years pursuant to an offer Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. from the Minister under provisions analagous Clause 66, as amended, agreed to. with Division I. of Part VI. of this Bill. Administratively the department gives such Clauses 67 to 72, both inclusive, as read, lessees occupation licences over the parts of agreed to. their former leases not included in the new 1862 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

lease offers until the land is selected. This 1959, following Sir William Payne's report, amendment gives statutory effect to the to allow a similar area, subject to similar administrative practice. There is no reason conditions, to be opened under perpetual ~hy such persons should not enjoy similar lease tenure. It is anomalous not to extend nghts to those of lessees of expired holdings. this provision to agricultural farms, particu­ Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. larly as the perpetual lease lessee could apply Clause 78, as amended, agreed to. for conversion to agricultural farm tenure the very day after the opening. Further, Clauses 79 to 82, both inclusive, as read, under the Bill no deed of grant can issue till agreed to. improvement conditions are performed, so Clause 83-Classes and modes of selec­ there is no sound reason for restricting open­ tions- ings of this size to perpetual lease openings only. ~~m. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Mmrster for Public Lands and Irrigation) Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. (9.18 p.m.): I move the following amend­ ment- Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (9.21 p.m.): I should like the Minister to explain why the "On page 85, lines 13 and 14, omit the area of a grazing selection has been reduced words- from 60,000 acres to 45,000 acres. I am 'Subject to the maximum area speci­ aware that in subclause (3) of Clause 84 fied for agricultural farm,'." there is a provision under which an area in The words omitted by the amendment are excess of 45,000 acres can be granted. redundant consequent upon the power being However, I point out to the Minister that given by the amendments of Clause 84 to quite a number of people in the West who open land as an agricultural farm up to were previously supporters of his Govern­ 5,000 acres. ment are very anxious to have an explana­ tion of this clause. When I say "who were Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. previously supporters of his Government," I Clause 83, as amended, agreed to. say it advisedly. Clause 84-Maximum area declared by I know tlrat in some areas 45,000 acres opening notification- may be an adequate living area, and I know, too, that the clause makes provision for ~~m. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ increasing that 45,000 acres up to a Mmrster for Public Lands and Irrigation) maximum of 60,000 acres in less favoured (9.19 p.m.): I move the following amend­ areas. The people in the West are not so ment- much concerned about the land that is being "On page 86, line 6, after the word thrown open for ballot as they are about the 'farm,' insert the words- land on which leases are expiring. Many 'subject to subsection (2) of this Crown tenants whose leases will expire in section'." the near future, at present have areas of 60,000 or more than 60,000 acres. Under These added words make the maximum of the Act, when 60,000 acres was regarded as 2,560 acres for agricultural farms dependent a living area for a grazing selection, a man upon subclause (2), which is being amended who had that area, or perhaps a little more, to enable 5,000 acres to be the maximum believed that he was on reasonably safe in certain circumstances. ground in obtaining a renewal of his lease. Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. But the clause lays down 45,000 acres as a living area for a grazing selection, and a ~~n. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ man who holds 65,000 acres of grazing selec­ Mmrster for Public Lands and Irrigation) tion and whose lease expires in the next (9.20 p.m.): I move the following amend­ few years is afraid that he will lose portion ment- of his area when the lease comes up for "On page 86, lines 16 and 17, omit the renewal. words- Mr. Ewan: In one- or two leases? 'perpetual lease selection or granted under that tenure' Mr. DUFFICY: In one lease because, as and insert in lieu thereof the words­ the hon. member for Roma knows as well as I do, it is competent for the Minister, 'agric~ltural farm or perpetual lease on the recommendation of the Commission, selectiOn or for selection alternatively to make an area available as an additional as either an agricultural farm or a area through an expiring lease. That is perpetual lease selection or may within his power and, despite the fact that be granted under perpetual lease tenure'." 60,000 or 65,000 acres, as the case may be, is held in one lease, that does not in itself The effect of this amendment is to allow guarantee security to the present tenant, that land to be opened as an agricultural farm he will obtain a renewal of the lease. I up to 5,000 acres provided conditions are am only putting this up to the Minister. attached requiring at least £5 an acre to be These are not necessarily my views but it ~pent on improvements, including structural is felt that, as the Bill provides for 45,000 Improvements. The law was amended in acres under that particular tenure, which is Land Bill [22 NovEMBER] Land Bill 1863

regarded as a living area only under excep­ Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (9.29 p.m.): I tional circumstances as is pointed out in think it is just a matter of the interpretation sub-clause 3 of clause 84, when a renewal that one puts on leases. I can concede the of lease is being considered, the figure of point made by the hon. member for Warrego 45,000 rather than 60,000 will be taken into that there are lots of cases where it will consideration. I feel that these fears might not be suitable. I take it that it will not be justified. Many graziers in my electorate apply to existing holdings. If that is the who previously supported this Government case, it will not affect anyone. Supposing are very anxious to hear the Minister's in a particular area it was considered that opinion on this point. you would require 55,000 acres, you would not open it under a grazing lease but a Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ pastoral lease. If it was opened under a Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) pastoral lease it would entitle you to include (9.27 p.m.): There is no need for graziers a larger area. We have to get down to the to be worried. They are actually, in the stark truth. What is a grazing lease? If poor areas, better off than they ever were 35,000 acres is not a living area, it could before, since there is an overriding principle not be termed a grazing lease. It would running right through the Bill. Overriding have to be opened under another heading. all area limitations there is a living area I think you would get over the difficulty concept. It can be truthfully said that in quite easily that way. the hon. gentleman's area there are places where 60,000 acres would not be enough. Mr. EWAN (Roma) (9.31 p.m.): There is Present lessees have nothing to worry about really no difference between the Bill and since they are entitled to receive their leases the previous Act. I do not know why it back and, in fact, aggregations are allowed should have been altered. I share the views to go on until the stage where they are of the hon. member for Warrego. The only wanting to sell. It is a laudable thing I difference between the previous Act and the think, to want to break up aggregations 'of 1910 Act was that the maximum area to the better-quality land, but those who hold be held as grazing selection was 60,000 acres. land there are protected so long as they It is still 60,000 acres. hold the lease themselves or leave it to their sons and daughters when they die. It is at Mr. Dnfficy: 45,000 under this. the stage where they wish to sell, or where Mr. EWAN: Yes, 45,000 acres; but in their inheritors wish to sell, that the 45,000 country that is difficult to develop, following acres, if it applies, will be used to break a report from the Commission the Minister these areas up into smaller areas. That need can open up to 60,000 acres. The Minister not necessarily worry anyone, since over­ always had the power, in consultation with riding all these limitations is the living-area concept. his officers, to design the area. He could well have left it at 60,000. If he thinks If you have 60,000 acres and it is not a that it should be 45,000 he does not need living area or substantially more than a to design any of the blocks, as envisaged in living area you have nothing to sub-clause (3), beyond 45,000 acres. worry about. We are, in fact, making it Mr. Dnfficy: He could open 30,000 acres possible to hold more than 60,000 acres if if he wanted to. the Commission can say that it is poor land and is not of sufficient quality to enable a Mr. EWAN: Of course he could. That good living to be made. is why I say that it is no different, in actual Mr. Dnfficy: In what clause is that? effect, from the previous Act. What has to be remembered is that the number of Mr. FLETCHER: I cannot think of the tenures has been reduced-prickly-pear exact clause, but I can assure the hon. development and all those others have gone. member that it is one of the philosophies It must be remembered that Clause 84 deals running right through this Bill that we have only with the opening of lands for grazing selection. Areas in excess of the 45,000 replaced the artificial area limitation which acres or 60,000 acres will be dealt with either is still used where it is applicable and have as preferential pastoral leases or pastoral replaced it largely by the concept of a living leases. I have encountered the feeling in the area. Aggregations and areas in excess of West that they fear that 15,000 acres will 60,000 acres can be held if the Commission be taken from them. That is not so. can say reasonably truthfully that it is not more than a living area, and not substantially Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (9.33 p.m.): more than a living area. It is really safer Clause 84 provides for the maximum areas than it ever was. There is nothing to worry to be declared by any opening notification. about in this unless the hon. gentleman In respect of the grazing selection, that area is worried about what I call our laudable of 45,000 acres is subject to sub-clause (~), which provides- efforts to break up aggregations in the high­ quality areas. "Land of an area in excess of forty-five thousand acres, but not exceeding sixty Mr. Dufficy: I am not worried; the people thousand acres, may be opened for grazing out there are. selection if the Commission first certifies 1864 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

to the Minister that, in its opinion, such Clause 87-What opening notification land, having regard to its quality and shall specify- situation, is not greatly in excess of a living area." Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) It would appear that if within a particular (9.57 p.m.): I move the following amend­ locality 45,000 acres is not regarded as a ment:- living area, the Minister can certify to an "On page 88, lines 16 and 17, omit the area up to 60,000 acres. words- Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. ' or held'." Clause 84, as amended, agreed to. Hon. members will remember that the amendment includes the words "or held". It Clause 85, as read, agreed to. is complementary to that, and for the same Clause 8~Maximum area which may be reasons. held in the State- Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (9.34 p.m.): I move the following (9.58 p.m.): I move a further amendment­ amendment- "On page 88, line 21, omit the words- "On page 87, lines 31 and 32, omit the 'or held'." words-- Amendment agreed to. 'on the Mount Abundance Repurchased Estate,'." Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Further research shows that in addition to (9.58 p.m.): I move a further amendment­ lessees on Mt. Abundance Estate holding "On page 88, line 28, omit the words- more than 6,000 acres under settlement farm 'or held'." lease tenure there are also some lessees still Amendment agreed to. holding the two priority settlement farm leases they received in return for surrender Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ of their leases pursuant to the provisions of Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) the 1952 Act. The hon. member for Warrego (9.59 p.m.): I move a further amendment­ knows what I am referring to. As an "On page 88, line 31, omit the words- t!ncouragement to surrender, a lessee was 'or held'." allowed to hold two settlement farm leases aggregating more than 6,000 acres. This Amendment agreed to. clause, as amended, will protect such holders Clause 87, as amended, agreed to. of settlement farm leases in excess of Clauses 88 and 89, as read, agreed to. 6,000 acres. There are not very many of them. Clause 90-Selective method of applica- tion- Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (9.40 p.m.): This Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ is one of the new principles in the Bill to Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) which the Opposition is completely opposed. (9.56 p.m.): I move a further amendment­ We think it is entirely wrong to have two "On page 87, after line 40, insert the persons, not being officers of the Public following new sub-clause- Service but who, in the opinion of the '(3) For the purposes of section Minister, are experienced in the primary eighty-five of this Act and this section industry for which the land is best suited. land within any Irrigation Area under Two people, who, in the opinion of tlre and within the meaning of "The Irriga­ Minister, come within that category, tion Acts, 1922 to 1961 ", held by any together with an officer of the Department person under "The Irrigation Areas of Public Lands, will constitute the screening (Land Settlement) Act of 1962", and committee, or the selection committee, that this Act shall be deemed to be held will screen applicants for balh?ts. I ~hink it under this Act only and be taken into is completely wrong to take th1s very Import­ account accordingly.'" ant function from officers of the Depart­ ment of Public Lands who have carried it This adds a new sub-clause (3) recognising out efficiently over a period of years .and the long-established administrative practice to place it in the hands of a committee of counting lands held in irrigation areas as whose majority comprises two people who a disqualification for holdings under will have tremendous power but no respon­ analagous tender under the Land Act. This sibility to this Parliament, or to anyone provision is complementary to a provision in else. How that can possibly b_e justified, I the new Irrigation Area (Land Settlement) do not know. I do not thmk anybody Bill. could reasonably complain about the work Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. associated with ballots that has been per­ formed by the officers of the Department of Clause 86, as amended, agreed to. Public Lands. Land Bill [22 NoVEMBER] Land Bill 1865

Mr. Ewan: Are you referring to open or such personal charges against the Minister, group ballots? but I suggest that it could be a very good Country Party supporter out in my electorate, Mr. DUFFICY: There is no such thing or the president of the Country Party. I as group balloting now. If the hon. mem­ venture to say that a member of the Aus­ ber read the Bill he would realise that the tralian Labour Party will not be selected. selective method has replaced the group These two people can reject any applicant. method of balloting. He can then put in a written objection, and Mr. Ewan: When this is carried, yes. the committee will sit and reject him again. That is the set-up, and I think it is com­ Mr. DUFFICY: Exactly. Why talk about pletely atrocious. group balloting? I am talking about the I think that the Government has made an selective method of balloting. The Bill unmerited reflection on the tried and true envisages two methods of balloting. experienced and competent members of the Mr. Ewau: Would you say that the old Department of Public Lands. In my experi­ method-- ence they have been completely impartial, and at least they have responsibilities to Mr. DUFFICY: The hon. member for Roma their Minister and to this Parliament. They can say what he likes later. I am saying that must also pay some regard to their own the Bill envisages two methods of balloting; experience and their advancement in the one is the open ballot and the other is the department. They must think of the careers selective method, which replaces the group that they have built up, which they are not ballot. Under the selective method, likely to spoil by making stupid or partial applicants will be screened by a committee decisions. composed of an officer of the Department of Public Lands, to act as chairman, and Now people from outside can be called two people from outside who will not be in and given tremendous power. They can officers of the department or public servants, decide who shall or shall not be applicants and they will, of course, constitute a majority for this very valuable commodity. Let us of that committee. So, in effect, through not make any mistake about it-land is the Bill, the Minister or the Government extremely valuable. The hon. member for is handing over to two outsiders, two people Gregory told me that when he drew a block with no responsibility to anybody, the right it was worth £50,000 or £60,000 on the day to screen applicants. I do not think any that he drew it. The committee is dealing reasonable person could agree to such a not with "peanuts," but with something of suggestion. very considerable value. To make it even worse, under the clause Mr. Wharton: Provided a man works it. there is no right of appeal to the Commission Mr. DUFFICY: I suggest that the hon. or to the Minister, or to anybody else. member for Burnett debate that with his col­ There is a right of appeal from Caesar to league the hon. member for Gregory, because Caesar. Subclause (12) says- I have repeated exactly what he said. He "Subject to subsections (10) and (11) of can place on it any interpretation that . he this section, the decision of the Committee likes. Everyone, with perhaps the exception to reject an application shall be final and of the hon. member who interjected, knows conclusive." that land is extremely valuable. It could Subclauses (10) and (11) provide as follows- be, and is, worth £50,000 or £60,000 to the "(10) Any applicant may, within person immediately he draws it. Yet we fourteen days of the date of the notifica­ find the Government giving to an outside tion of the Committee's decision, apply body the right to decide who shall and who in writing to the Committee to appear shall not be in a ballot for it. before it or he may, within such time Mr. Ewan: Do you prefer the open to lodge with the Committee written evidence the selective system? in support of his application. "(11) As soon as possible after the Mr. DUFFICY: That is not the point. If expiry of the fourteen days as aforesaid, the hon. member was listening to me, he the Committee shall hear any rejected would know that I was not speaking about applicant who duly applied to appear any particular system. There was a group before it, or consider any written evidence system and an open system prior to the intro­ duly lodged with it by any rejected duction of this BiJJ, but no outside body applicant. screened applicants under the group system. "Subject to so doing the Committee of Mr. Ewan: Which do you prefer? Review may make, with respect to the application concerned, a fresh determina­ Mr. DUFFICY: It is not a question of tion, and either in confirmation of or what I prefer. I favour applicants being substitution for its original decision." screened by responsible officers of the Department of Public Lands. These two members of the committee will be selected willy-nilly by the Minister and, Mr. Sullivan: Didn't your Government do without being nasty, some political patronage this with the ballots for soldier settlement may come into it. I am not making any blocks? 1866 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Mr. DUFFICY: Never. There has never else he was able to get into the ballot. I am before been anything like this. not ' suggesting that there was anything in To summarise my points, I say first that the nature of political influence in that par­ it is not a question of whether hon. members ticular case, but it leaves the way open on this side of the Chamber agree with to suggest that that was the case. If, in open ballots or whether we agree with the first place, an officer of the department, group ballots. If there is to be a method responsible for the selection in this instance, of screening applicants who wish to enter rejected the application and if it was still a ballot, we believe that the screening should rejected following representations by the be carried out by responsible officers of the member for the district, and then finally Department of Public Lands, as it has been he was able to see the Minister and was over the years. We think it is quite wrong able to get into the ballot, well, we can that two outsiders, who will constitute a make our own deductions. The Minister majority of the committee, should have agreed, after he had made some _inquiries the right to decide who shall or shall not from his officers, that he thought It was a be accepted. The Government has been bad case. subjected to outside pressure, as the former I propose to give an outline of another Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation application that was made in respect of knows-he made the statement in this Nive Downs. It is very interesting to note Chamber that it was subjected to outside that this applicant was born in 1910 and pressure-and it would be shocking if outside from 1927 to 1937 he was actually working pressure was brought to bear on any Govern­ on, and associated with, the control and ment in making appointments to a committee management of properties in which his dealing with something as valuable as land. family was interested, and in operating a shearing contracting business throughout the Mr. Smith: Will you answer a question? Central West and the Nive Downs area. He was also, from 1937 to 1954, a field officer Mr. DUFFICY: Yes, I will answer a of the Department of Public Lands, from question. land ranger to land commissioner, except Mr. Smith: You would agree-- for the period from 1942 to 1946, when he was in the R.A.A.F. The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. He showed, on the certification of his member for Windsor can ask his question bank manager, that he had assets worth when he makes a speech. £15,000 and that £5,000 further finance was available. That was certified to by the Mr. W ALSH (Bundaberg) (9.52 p.m.): I manager of a bank in Bundaberg. Here was should say that this is one of the most a person who, with all his experience in the contentious clauses in the Bill. It certainly shearing industry, and with his family also­ introduces an entirely new principle into the I think the hon. member for Barcoo knows method of balloting for Crown lands in the family, the Duffys-engaged under the Queensland. I say straight out that I would headings I have outlined, and having visited prefer the open method, because I do not all the sheep areas and cattle properties in think we have done too badly over the years the areas under his jurisdiction as land in this State with the type of people who ranger and land commissioner, and report­ have taken up Crown lands. It gave the ing to the department on development of right to every person, irrespective of his the properties, was finally told in a com­ standing in the community-a humble wage­ munication dated 3 April 1962 that his plug, or a person following any other calling­ application in respect of Nive Downs was subject to complying with certain financial rejected. The letter reads- conditions relating to the stocking of properties, which was very important, to "The ballot for the abovementioned land take part in a ballot. As I said, I think was held on 3 April 1962 and I have to Queensland has done very well in the inform you that you were not admitted selectors who took up land under that method to the ballot for the following reason- of balloting. Has it not given a chance to "You have not been actively engaged in many shearers and people who worked on rural pursuits for some years past. cattle stations for many years? With their "A cheque for £100 in refund of the experience they were able to enter a ballot, preliminary deposit will be forwarded to and they have proved to be very good you later by the Accountant." selectors. Difficulties arose when the group I do not know why such a limitation should method of balloting was introduced, apd this be placed on a young man, 52 years of age, method will worsen the position. who was able to show on the certificate of At the introductory stage of this measure his banker that his assets were valued at I referred to two cases that apparently £15 000 and that a further £5,000 was occurred under the group system. In a case available from that bank for him to go on­ at Dalby, I mentioned that the applicant to any one of those properties. Yet he was made representations through the member just wiped off. for the district after being rejected, but was Surely the Minister's department, or any told that he could not get in. When he came of its officers, could not argue that a man to Brisbane and saw the Minister or someone who was employed by the department and Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER) Land Bill 1867 was so intimately associated with the sheep Mr. WALSH: Probably a jam tin. and cattle areas as to be called upon to With the backing of those who were pre­ make careful reports on every aspect of pared to finance him he was able to sh

What I do suggest is that the people we St. George, Clermont, Cloncurry, or any­ can point to in history who have made a where else, it is reasonable to assume that success of living off the land and lrave the independent members of the committee prospered in that living should be sufficient will be people from those districts. One example to the Government for it to per­ can imagine the prospects of an applicant severe with open ballots almost to the who came from the coast or another district. exclusion of selective ballots. I sincerely These members could argue, with a good hope that in the future it will do so. deal of force, that some one whom they knew in the district, knowing its conditions, Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (10.14 p.m.): I would be more suitable than someone from think it is a thousand pities that an excellent another area. That principle is bad. The piece of legislation such as we see in the Minister and his officers will play second Bill should be marred by an obnoxious clause fiddle to this committee. such as this. I am very perturbed about it and I want to say at tlre very outset that I If the provision were watered down to intend to oppose it. some extent and the committee were to be composed of two members of the Commission My first reason for opposing it is really on and one outside member resident in the dis­ the principles of democracy. We elect a trict to advise the other committee members, Government, whether it be Country Party, I think I would be in favour of it. As it Liberal, Labour, or any other brand, and the is, it is allowing control to leave the hands people are expected to observe the laws laid of the department, which I think is bad. The down by that Government. This section Government has to accept responsibility for provides for the taking of power out of the its administration. A Government cannot hands of the Minister, and it is that part govern and accept dictation from any out­ to which, above all, I object. side body. Let me say that I agree entirely with the last two speakers, the hon. members for Mr. Walsh: Do you say that this Govern­ Bundaberg and Windsor. It is very difficult ment is accepting dictation from any outside to screen applicants. I know that in a great body? many cases applicants are being protected Mr. MULLER: That is what will happen. against themselves, but it is not always known Outsiders are in the majority on the com­ who are unsuitable. I had one experience of mittee, whose decision is final. a tobacco-grower in the Burdekin district who had worked in a bakery but who was The Bill provides that a dissatisfied appli­ one of the most successful growers in the cant may lodge an appeal, but his appeal area. I know that such instances are rare is heard by the same people who decided and cannot be used to prove that anyone can the matter in the first instance In effect, do well on the land. I believe that the whether or not you call it an appeal from prospects that people with experience of the Caesar unto Caesar, it is only an appeal to land have of doing well are very much the people who have already' made the greater than are those of men with no such decision. I do not like the provision. First, experience, but what I object to is the it directs the Minister to do certain things. method of screening. I know that this is After the committee has been appointed, the the result of outside pressure which I think Minister has no power, which I think is bad. is bad, and the clause should be rejected. I do not want to waste your time, Mr. Taylor, but I have to oppose the clause because it Mr. Walsh: Why do you say that? is undemocratic in principle. During my time as Minister for Public Lands and Irri­ Mr. MULLER: I have no doubt that this gation, I appointed committees on stud provision came from outside. Knowing the leases and Harrisia cactus leases, but they Minister as I do, I cannot think for a moment acted more or less in an advisory capacity. that he is happy with it. It is a great pity They were composed of two public servants, that it should be included in an otherwise namely, the Commissioner of Lands and an beautiful piece of legislation. I commend officer of the biological section of the Depart­ all of those responsible for it; it is some­ ment of Public Lands, and one outside thing of which the State has reason to be authority, and they were only in a position proud. to make a recommendation to the Minister. A reading of the clause shows that the This provision takes the power completely Minister "shall" constitute a committee. It out of the hands of the Minister. is not optional, and it is not an advisory Now that I have been prompted to say it, committee. He is required to appoint it, I should like to say that in my time pres­ and it shall be constituted of two persons sure was brought to bear to get some of from outside the department and the Chief these outside people a seat on the Land Commissioner of Lands. If it were a com­ Administration Board, as it then was. To mittee to advise the Minister I think I could my mind there is nothing more obnoxious have approved of it, but in the circumstances than that kind of administration. The the outside appointees have all the power. Government in power must retain the It has already been said that there will authority to administer its own legislation be several committees. One has merely to as it sees fit, whether it is approved by the look at it to see how it will work. If land people or whether it is not. The elected is to be opened at Charleville, Cunnamulla. representatives of the people must govern. 1870 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY} Land Bill

This clause will hand power over to an out­ "A member of a Committee of Review side authority-in fact, not only to one shall not be eligible to make an application authority but to several authorities in for any land in respect of which the various parts of the State-and I cannot see Committee, of which he is a member, is my way clear to support it. I say again to determine the successful applicant." that it is a great pity that an important and excellent piece of legislation should be But it does not say that his son is barred marred by the inclusion of a clause such as from that ballot while his father is on the this. committee. He could have any relative he likes as an applicant and still be empowered Mr. O'DONNELL (Barcoo) (10.22 p.m.): to sit on that committee, even having as I do not wish to rehash all the good argu­ close a relative as a son as an applicant. ments that have been used to condemn this The only time he is barred from sitting on selective method, but I wish to bring before the committee is when he himself is an the Committee the wording of certain parts interested person. I really think that the of the clause. Sub-clause (5) (b) says- clause should be amended, that is, if it is "two persons not being officers of the going through. Weight of numbers is against Public Service, who, in the opinion of the our opposition, but this clause will definitely Minister, are experienced in the primary have to be altered. One has only to read industry for which the land is best suited." the conditions of competitions conducted by "The Courier-Mail". They will not even Sub-clause (6) goes on to say- allow people working inside "The Courier­ "To the extent he deems practicable the Mail" building connected with the paper, or Minister shall nominate under paragraph their relatives, to enter into those competitions, (b) of sub-section (5) of this Section, per­ but under this clause any relative of a member sons who have had experience as men­ of the committee can be an applicant for tioned in that paragraph in the locality a ballot. in which the land opened for selection is Another matter that has been mentioned situated." here, and that has been brought up outside, That gives the Minister an opportunity of in relation to the possible activities of this appointing all the has-beens of the land to a committee, is that it can not only call in selective committee, because the qualifica­ the applicant for interview, but also the tion required is experience, not that they applicant's wife. Why on earth would they are actually working in the primary indus­ want the applicant's wife to come in? In try. Retired graziers, dairy farmers, sugar these ballots the ages of applicants range farmers, and others could be appointed to from 18 to 55 in certain areas of the State, these committees, and we can realise, as the and any young man who has acquired a hon. member for Fassifern pointed out, wife from the city, a girl who possibly has what a conflict of ideas could occur from not been far from the tram tracks all her district to district in the State. Even if an life, could have her called before the attempt was made to get a certain amount committee. As soon as they saw she was of consistency in the personnel of some of a city girl, that would be the end of the the committees, inevitably someone would application. It is a ridiculous position and fall out because of illness or would be I think it should be considered from the unavailable for some other reason, and there point of view of common sense. Many could be a variety of contradictory decisions criticisms of the Department of Public Lands in the same locality. On account of the are creeping into this. People want to get wording of this clause, I have heard people rid of these commissioners in the screening making very definite statements on what of applicants. As a matter of fact, the these committees are going to be and how Liberal Party's policy, which was published they are going to act. This is one case, in the Press recently, shows clearly that from "Country Life" and it quotes the hon. they want to get rid of the present member for Condamine. I want hon. mem­ bers to take note of how emphatic his state­ commission set-up and there is a section of ment is. It states- thought in the country that does not want "To select applicants for participation the present Land Court set-up. I do not in land ballots the Minister would choose want to repeat all this; it is in the Press men from the locality where the land was for anyone to read. being thrown open for ballot." The reference that was made by the hon. That is a very definite statement, but member for Carnarvon tonight is also here. that is not the interpretation of the clause I could quote that too, but it is not relevant. at all. The clause says "where practicable." However, when these committees are set up, It does not say that he will. He could the chairman appointed by the Department bring in two experienced men from outside, of Public Lands will have a terrible time. In men who know the district. When people in some districts the incompatibility of the men the country read articles like this they say, selected will not be realised until they get "Well, I suppose it will be Smith up on down to business. top and Jones down below and I won't get a go at all because they hate my insides." Mr. Hanlon: They will need a committee Sub-clause 7 states- to consider the committee. Land Bill [22 NoVEMBER] Land Bill 1871

Mr. O'DONNELL: That is correct. They requirements he would have equally as good will need to have a recommending commit­ a chance as a man who had been on the tee to select the members. I impress on land all his life. the Minister the importance of sub-clause Subclause (9) of the clause under review (7). I cannot see how it can operate. When says- a man serves on the committee he >hould " All applicants who are rejected by the have no immediate family relationship with Committee as not being eligible or other­ any applicant. How on earth is that going wise qualified, shall be notified in writing to work out'? The clause cannot be allowed of the Committee's decision and the to remain unchanged. reasons therefor." I must give my full support to the hon. Subclause (10) says- member for Warrego and others who have "Any applicant may, within fourteen objected to this provision. It is extremely days of the date of the notification of objectionable and is an insult to the present the Committee's decision, apply in writing Commis·sion. to the Committee to appear before it or he may, within such time lodge with the Mr. SULLIVAN (Condamine) (10.31 Committee written evidence in support of p.m.): I have listened to the arguments put his application." forward by hon. members opposite. It is very evident that they have not much con­ Subclause (11) says- fidence in the man on the land. The whole "As soon as possible after the expiry of argument revolves about this committee. I the fourteen days as aforesaid, the Com­ do not want to take up too much time. mittee shall hear any rejected applicant Already there has been a great deal of who duly applied to appear before it, or unnecessary talking. I see many things to consider any written evidence duly lodged commend the idea of the consultative com­ with it by any rejected applicant. mittee. vVe must realise that outside Par­ "Subject to so doing the Committee of liament there are many men with possibly Review may make, with respect to the a greater knowledge of land and land application concerned, a fresh determina­ development than some of us here. People tion, and either in confirmation of or sub­ associated with the land, people who no stitution for its original decision." doubt will participate in ballots in the years ahead, have applauded this action on the If this committee were to throw out an part of the Government. applicant because it did not like the colour of his hair, or something like that, as was Mr. Dufficy: Why don't you tell us the suggested by hon. members opposite, the real reason it was brought in. reason has to be advertised, and no com­ mittee would run the risk of being charged Mr. SULUVAN: This is the first time with taking its responsibility so lightly. The I have spoken. The hon. member has been hundreds of men seeking land, particularly going all day. He has had plenty of oppor­ in the brigalow belt which is to be thrown tunity to say something about it. open for development-and I am keen to People who are keenly interested in par­ see the right type of settler placed on the ticipating in ballots welcome this provision. land-applaud this condition in Clause 90. I think it was the hon. member for Bunda­ Before resuming his seat the hon. mem· berg, surprisingly supported by the hon. ber for Barcoo said that he strongly sup­ member for Fassifern, who said that this ported the hon. member for Warrego. I type of selection would keep people who strongly support the Minister on the inclu­ would be good landholders out of ballots. sion of this provision in the Bill. It indicates that the hon. members have Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (10.37 a suspicious mind. I am not going to say p.m.): To me, and I am sure to most hon. that a person who has not had any land members in the Chamber, this is one of the experience would not make a good settler most repulsive clauses ever inserted in a on the land. I know what has been done Bill. I should very much like to see it by people in my area who settled on the decided by secret ballot. It is obvious that land under the soldier settlement scheme. it would not then be carried in the way it By applying themselves, using good common will be carried. sense, and seeking advice from practical and Honourable Members interjected. successful men they have turned out to be good settlers. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Will hon. mem· hers please keep quiet and allow the hon. The clause provides that the Minister shall member for Port Curtis to proceed. appoint people from various primary indus­ tries. Knowing the Minister as I do, I am Mr. BURROWS: The clause says, "the confident that he would ensure that those Minister shall". He is required to appoint chosen to sit on the committee are men the members of the committee. In turn, the capable of assessing the ability of an duties of the committee will be to select applicant. If he had no previous association applicants who will be allowed to participate with the land but could measure up to their in the ballots. I object to this, because 1872 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill obviously the Government considers the Mr. BURROWS: I do not want to be officers of the department are not com­ offensive, but what did his party do with petent or capable of carrying out this work. preferential voting? That demonstrates Yet they are competent to advise the Minis­ their strength of character. ter; that is quite obvious. As with every other Minister, he has to be advised. Even Mr. Sullivan: And I always thought you a member of the Land Court is in attend­ were a nice little fellow. ance tonight. The Minister has quite a con­ tingent of advisers, but according to the Mr. BURROWS: I am more concerned principles contained in this clause none of about the interests of the country people them will be capable of selecting persons than most hon. members sitting over on the eligible to enter the ballot. That in itself Government benches are. is an inconsistency. It is useless beating The CHAIRMAN: Order! I am more con­ about the bush, and I did not do so before. ce·rned that the hon. member speak to the I know the Minister personally and I am clause. certain that he is the unhappiest man in the Chamber over this position, but he is in a Mr. BURROWS: Yes, Mr. Taylor. I will cleft stick and he must either do this or admit that I did get off the track. get out. We have not been told what the method of The hon. member for Windsor-it was selection will be. The provision is very one of the most pleasing things that have obscure. It says only that the Minister shall happened to me in the last 12 months-­ sele-ct men who, preferably, should live in stood up and showed a definite symptom the district and have some knowledge of of knowing something. I had despaired agriculture or primary industry. Apart from of his future but now I nurture the hope that the qualifications are very indefinite, that he will amount to something. He but it is quite obvious that they must be said that quite a number of people with clients, that they have got to be able to little or no experience had made very suc­ discharge the responsbility that should be cessful settlers. If one goes back through the Minister's and the Government's. It history or through the names of successful is a case of delegated authority, which is landholders in one's own district, it is not not in accordance with my conception of uncommon to find quite a number who democracy. were tradesmen. I feel that this is part of a plan to create Mr. Herbert: Even accountants. a landed gentry in the country and keep certain sections of the community from Mr. BURROWS: I think I could nearly acquiring land, reserving it for only the make a good settler even out of the hon. favoured few. We read of publications like member for Sherwood if I had him for Burke's Peerage and Debrett's, both dealing about five years. He certainly has the with the aristocracy in England. If this brawn if he has not the brains, and I am Government is not pulled up with a jerk- sure he would do all right in the end. 1 feel sure that the electors have had quite enough of it now and next May it will pay The CHAffiMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ for its political sins-it will be found that ber will now speak to the clause. "Fletcher's Landed Gentry" will be pub­ lished and only those people whose names Mr. BURROWS: Anyway, this is not a appear in it will be eligible to hold freehold matter for hilarity and I must apologise or leasehold land in this State. for introducing a note of levity. It is a Before I conclude, I wish to deny the very serious matter. Quite obviously it is suggestion that has been made that my a political matter. The Government is retirement at the end of this session is in determined that only members of its own anticipation of my being appointed a member political party, or people who are good of one of these committees. Labour-haters and who have toed the line Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (10.46 p.m.): I politically-- am not going to take up very much of the Mr. Sullivan: You are a grazier and you time of the Committee, but I do think that are not a member of the Country Party. the time has arrived to brush aside the smoke-screen that has been raised in this Mr. BURROWS: The hon. member for matter. Listening to the hon. member for Condamine suggests that I should be a Condamine speak with his tongue in his member of the Country Party. cheek caused me to rise to say these few Mr. Sullivan: I said you are not. words. Without any shadow of doubt, the Mr. BURROWS: I should like to see the Government has a twin objective in this day when he is an honest, conscientious, and matter. In the first place, it wants to free qualified member of a decent country party. itself from any odium that may attach to He is only a tool of vested interests. it because of the rejection of the applica­ Mr. Sullivan: Don't be so offensive. tions of certain people for inclusion in Land Bill [22 NovEMBER] Land Bill 1873 ballots. Let no-one tell me that there has officers of the Department of Public Lands, not been considerable discontent over who have spent a lifetime in the department ballots in recent years. dealing with land matters and conducting ballots. I invite the Minister, or any other Mr. Ewan: For years. hon. member opposite, to name one man, whether he is an experienced grazier or a Mr. DUFFICY: Over recent years, I very ardent supporter of the Country Party, said. I have been a member of this Parlia­ with a greater knowledge of the correct pro­ ment for the past 12 years, and till this cedure for the conduct of ballots than the Government assumed office I did not receive officers to whom I have referred. one telegram or letter of complaint from any of my constituents on the conduct of ballots. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ When the Nive Downs ballot took place Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) recently, since this Government assumed (10.54 p.m.): We have heard a few things office, I received a stack of telegrams that I said over and over again this evening, and could produce here from not only people we can take comfort from the fact that on who were rejected but also from others analysis, generally speaking, they support who were in the district and believed that the action we are taking. By implication, the conditions attaching to that ballot were very many of the things that have been said completely unfair. If the hon. members for indicate that this is a good and wise thing Roma and Condamine try to tell me that to do. there has not been a great deal of dissatis­ Mr. Walsh: Who said that? faction throughout Western Queensland in recent years, I say that they are not telling Mr. FLETCHER: I am saying it. The the truth. The Government has included implications of what hon. members over this clause in the Bill in an endeavour to there have been saying-the dissatisfaction free itself from that sort of odium. Its they have told us about and the reasons for first objective is the appointment of two that dissatisfaction-indicate that this was people from outside, and it is hoped that a good thing to do. I am saying that and the odium that has attached to the Govern­ I have the support of my party, who have ment over recent years as a result of the talked about this at great length and dissected rejection of applicants will be transferred it and have made this decision. It is not to the committee. my decision only. The second point is that I believe, as I said Opposition Members: Outside pressure. earlier, that the Government is subject to outside pressure. There is no doubt about Mr. FLETCHER: We have had charges that, and the hon. member for Fassifern, a that this was done because of outside pressure. former Minister for Public Lands and Irriga­ Let me tell hon. members that this was tion, will bear out what I say. There has been pressure from people who, wishing to initiated by my own Commission as a result get some political advantage because they of a spate of adverse criticism by the are supporters of the Government, have U.G.A. people, by "Country Life", by the indicated that they would like a say in decid­ newspapers-- ing who shall and who shall not be successful Opposition Members: The pressure group. applicants to enter ballots. That is a particu­ larly dangerous principle because it could Mr. FLETCHER: Many of them are quite introduce political patronage into this very entitled to take the objections they took important matter. Undoubtedly the composi­ because they are interested parties. It was tion of the committee of review will have a very big bearing on which applicants are they, their neighbours, their sons, and their successful and which are not. As I inter­ relatives who were concerned, and if they jected a short time ago, I should like to found something to find fault with, that was know what chance Mr. Jim Sparkes would good enough and I did not mind that in have as an applicant if the hon. member the least. If they found something that was for Condamine was a member of the com­ a good argument I was prepared to listen mittee of review. I think that indicates what to it, but the Commission said to themselves, could happen. "There is a great deal of dissatisfaction." I am very annoyed about the statement Mr. Muir went to New South Wales. He by the hon. member for Condamine that was not going there particularly for that there are people outside this Chamber who purpose but he came back with a lot of have a greater knowledge of land matters information as to how things were running than people inside the Chamber. That down there and it included the fact that is true, of course, particularly of hon. a commission of three down there was very members opposite, because there are few people outside this Chamber with as successfully handling this sort of matter for little knowledge of land matters as they them. have. I say quite definitely-! defy any Mr. Hanlon: I though that was in Victoria. hon. member opposite to contradict me -that no man in Queensland has a greater Mr. FLETCHER: In Victoria, too. knowledge of land matters and a greater knowledge of the correct procedure for the Mr. Hanlon: Who comprises the com­ conduct of land ballots than the experienced mittees down there? 1874 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Mr. FLETCHER : I do not know who three-man commission, or trio of men with comprises the committees, but in Victoria this responsibility, and say, "Look, you were they are all outside the Land Administration mistaken. I really can do this, or I really Department. am this, or I really have this amount of money." Surely that is the right way to Mr. Dufficy: You could expect that with treat it. the Government they have down there. What is the matter with having men from Mr. FLETCHER: They work. They put outside? It is a jolly good thing. We have heard all this talk about no appeal. What this to me: "What about having it outside hypocrisy! What appeal did they have before? in Queensland? There is a great deal of They did not even know they were in the dissatisfaction. Mr. Dufficy has said some­ ballot. It is the most hypocritical thing thing about it and he more or less supports I have heard for years. Hon. members it." opposite ask, "Why don't you give these Mr. Dufficy: I am against the policy of people an appeal?" We have given them your Government, not against the officers. an appeal to the committee itself on the basis that if the committee says "You cannot Mr. FLETCHER: The policy of my do", the applicant can come back and prove Government has been better in this matter that he can do. It will be out in the open. than the policy that existed when we took Mr. Dufficy: An appeal from Caesar to office. There has been a good deal of improvement in what used to be the old Caesar. group system. We got out of the hole-in­ Mr. FLETCHER: What did they have corner, nobody-knows-what-goes-on position before? They did not even get near Caesar. under the old system. That has been changed, and to some extent we have brought it out Mr. Dufficy: Under your Government they into the open. got a very raw deal. When I took office I was amazed at how Mr. FLETCHER: Under our Governmnt little people did know about whether or they have got everything far more out in not they were in a ballot. That was some the open. They have had access to more of the reason for the spate of criticism and information than ever before. It has gone I decided that people who were not successful on improving. If the hon. member can in getting into a ballot had to be told about persuade me that there is anything wrong it. I found out that was the first time in getting the thing right out in the open they had ever been told. Many people had so that every applicant knows where he is, been under the impression that they had then there is something awfully cockeyed in been in ballots for years and years but this cockeyed world. It is an excellent thing they never had been. All they had been to do. told was that they were unsuccessful and, The matters to be decided by the com­ because I instituted the idea of a very fair, mittee are factual. There could not be any decent, and democratic principle that a man political patronage. Applicants will be was entitled to know if he was not allowed asked a series of questions. "Have you got in, these men for the first time realised land experience? Have you got money? that they had never been in. Of course, Have you got your experience in the last there was a lot of worry and quite an amount 10 years?", or whatever it turns out to be. of inquiry and wondering as to whether we You cannot gerrymander a thing like that. could do better than this. The criticism was at this business of having it inside the depart­ Opposition Members interjected. ment under the control of Ted Walsh or Alan Fletcher, and it was not good enough. Mr. FLETCHER: I know, and I am sure They did not know what went on or whether you know, Mr. Taylor, that Opposition mem­ they were in a ballot or out of it. They bers are trying to get the last little bit rightly claimed that all they knew was that of political advantage they can out of this, they put their names in, and it was not but they are finding it pretty hard. good enough. This is a further extension The Minister is not giving away his of the democratic principle of getting it out powers. He never did have the power to so that people know where they are. examine, appoint, and run the show himself. I have brought this in at the instance of Mr. Houston: What are you complaining the Commission itself. We are getting every­ about? thing out where everybody can see it and there will not be anybody who does not Mr. FLETCHER: I am not complaining know all about it. at all. If a young man puts his application in Mr. Houston: You must be blaming the and is allowed in, well and good; if he officers. is not allowed in he has 14 days to get his documents in order, to get his references Mr. FLETCHER: I am simply making this in order, to get everything he can bring a better way of doing it. There was the to this committee. He can take it along charge that the Minister was delegating his personally if he likes, and present it to this powers or sloughing off his powers. The Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1875

Minister could object if he did not agree with select the men and do not even have a ballot. the way things were run. He could refer We are not doing that. We are delegating the matter to the Land Court. There is in the job of selecting applicants to this three­ effect an appeal if the Minister can be per­ man committee. This method has a big suaded that there is something very wrong. advantage over tlre method that previously But he would not put the sort of men there applied, especially as it gets away from the in the first place who would not be likely to hole-and-corner method that was operating do things in a satisfactory way. The under the men who are now our main critics. suggestion that we would put men on for People did not know where they were, but our own political purposes is just so much now they will. eyewash. I do not think that even the hon. Mr. Burrows: Is that an indictment of member for Port Curtis, who always expects the previous Land Administration Commis­ the worst-although he is not as bad as the hon. member for Bundagerg, who has sion? that trait ingrained in his character-thinks Mr. FLETCHER: I am very proud of the that there will be anything wrong with this. Land Adminstration Commission. It is an Power is not taken away from the Minister indictment of the policy that imposed that at all. The Minister has never selected condition on men in the Department of applicants or reviewed applications. In fact, Public Lands. he did not ever have this power personally in his own right. We are doing it in a far I am grateful for the compliments that more satisfactory, more open, and better lrave been paid to the members of the Land way, whichever way it is looked at. The Administration Commission. The men in committee, in effect, takes the place of the the Department of Public Lands are tried land commissioner. It is considered desir­ and true. They suggested this as a means able to have the views of practical, experi­ of getting rid of some of the things they enced men from outside. There is nothing have been accused of quite unjustly, such as wrong with that. It is an excellent idea, having a hole-and-corner method in the no matter what way it is looked at. department. This will get it out in the open. They are tried and true men and . Mr. Houston: What will be the qualifica­ they do not want to be accused of hole­ tiOns of the members of the committee? and-corner methods. They are jolly fine fellows. M!· F~ETCHER: In the main, personal quahfica!IOns of character, and experience Mr. O'Sullivan: There are plenty of a_nd b_ra~ns. . If theY_ have all those qualifica­ members of the Labour Party who are decent tiOns rt IS qmte possrble they will be members fellows. of the Country Party, but it does not auto­ m.atically follow. Most men in the country Mr. FLETCHER: Of course there are. with character, experience, and brains We have gone to a great deal of trouble belong to the Country Party. with this. We have tried to see both sides of the question and we think we have come Mr. Duffi.cy. Most of the unintelligent ones up with a very good suggestion. The peop!e belong to the Country Party. administering the Department of Pubhc Lands have suggested this innovation to the The CHAIRMAN: Order! Government, and down through the years this will be the principle that will be applied ~r. FLETCHER: The open system, to land opened for selection. which has been favoured, and still is favoured, by many, will be used in the far Hon. P. J. R. HILTON (Carnarvon) (11.9 wester~ areas where there is no agricultural p.m.): The Minister's remarks have prompted pote~tml, . but where special experience, me to make a contribution to the debate on specral skrlls, and a good deal of money is this clause. I listened intently to everything necessary-and there is no doubt that money that was said by hon. members on both sides experience, and special skills are needed t~ of the Chamber. The Minister claimed that cope with difficult areas such as the brigalow he did away with tlre unsavoury hole-and­ bel.t-I think the selective method is better. corner business in the group method as pro­ It IS true that many men without any experi­ vided for in the existing legislation. ence have done well, but lron. members opposite cannot tell me, when only a few Mr. Fletcher: I varied some of the con­ blocks are available, that young men who ditions. are experienced and have devoted their lives to equipping themselves for this sort of job Mr. HILTON: He is indicting his prede­ should not have some priority for it when it cessor in office. is balloted for. I think it is only fair that Mr. Fletcher: Not a bit. the men who, as overseers and share­ farmers, have trained themselves for years Mr. HILTON: The Minister said a while and lrave devoted their lives to land matters, ago that the members of the Commission should have some priority rights. I think were unjustly accused of applying hole-and­ that most people in all the Australian States corner methods. If he says the Commission subscribe strictly to that principle. I know was unjustly accused of that, of course he that in Victoria and Western Australia they implies that the former Minister for Public 1876 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

Lands, the hon. member for Fassifern, and The two men will not be responsible to previous Ministers, were not honest in their anybody. It is an entirely new precedent ministerial administration of the department in Government administration to appoint men who may not do the right thing and who are Mr. Fletcher: Oh, go away. You are not accountable to anybody for any wrong­ labouring a bit now. doing they may be guilty of in selecting or rejecting candidates. Mr. HILTON: I am not labouring in any shape or form. The Minister's remarks were Mr. Harrison: The people will know all wide open to that interpretation. about the rejection of the applications. It will all be in the open. Mr. Hanlon: He said he found those conditions prevailing when he took office. Mr. HILTON: It does not matter whether it is in the open or otherwise. The two men Mr. HILTON: That is so, and there was on the committee can say that, in their a Country Party-Liberal Government in opinion, the people rejected were not satis­ office for quite some time before he became factory applicants. Minister. Mr. Harrison: A whole lot of people will Mr. Hanlon: Over three years. know all about it, too. Mr. HILTON: Over three years. Mr. HILTON: The rejected applicants may write in and say, "We are satisfactory", Mr. Fletcher: How many other things diu and the committee can reply, "We adhere to we have to fix up? We could not do the lot our decision." in three years. Mr. Muller: Their decision is final. Mr. Walsh: You made a big enough mess in the three years. Mr. HILTON: Their decision is final, and Mr. Fletcher: No, we cleaned up a whole those applicants may be unjust~y rejected .. It lot of things. may not be a matter of their not havmg sufficient finance. The question of experience Mr. HILTON: The Minister's argument could come in. They may have sufficient on this provision was rather pathetic. I finance and the committee could say, "We think a precedent is being established that is do not deem you to be suitable according without parallel in the other States. The to the conditions that have been imposed by functioning of public servants and of all the Minister upon balloting for these par­ members of courts is guided first by the Act ticular blocks." The people aggrieved would under which they are appointed; their duties have no redress and the Minister could not are defined by an Act, and, even in the do anything about it. matter of pure administration, they are Mr. Harriron: They would not be bound to observe certain sound principles. re-appointed if they were as bad as you say. They are responsible to senior officers or to the Minister or to the Governor in Council. Mr. HILTON: But the damage would But under this clause the Minister Will have been done. If a scandalous position appoint from time to time men who, he like that did develop, as it could, the Minis­ thinks, have the necessary qualifications, and ter would not be game to re-appoint them, they will not be responsible to anybody. but the damage would have been done. Mr. Fletcher: They are responsible to the There is no guarantee that anyone appointed Minister; of course they are! and not required by law to be responsible to somebody is going to do the right and Mr. HILTON: Of course they are not. In proper thing. I think that it is a cardinal what way are they responsible? Assume that principle that any person carrying out a the Minister in all good faith appointed two function of government should be responsible men whom he thought to be men of excellent to some authority for the discharge of hi'S character and he found through their deal­ duty. In New South Wales outsiders do ings w1th applications that he had been sadly not fulfil this role, as the Minister claimed. mistaken in his judgment of them. This Unless there has been an alteration to the position could arise because they would con­ provision, the men constituting the com­ stitute a majority of the committee. They mittee are all permanent employees of the could unjustly reject not merely one or two, Lands Department. but dozens of applications and stand firm on their decision. The Minister would have no Mr. Muller: There is no land to be bal­ power to take any action to redress grievances loted for in New South Wales. or remove the injustices that had been perpetrated. Mr. HILTON: There was some of the western land; but not much, I agree. Mr. Fletcher: He could refer the matter to the Land Court. Mr. Muller: Victoria has none. Mr. HILTON: He could not refer it to Mr. HILTON: I do not wish to detain the Land Court because the ballots would the Committee unnecessarily, but I resent have already taken place and the Land Court what the Minister has implied against the would not be in a position to review the previous administration of the department on matter even if the Minister wanted it to. this important matter. Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1877

I am not, and never was, in favour of that this power has not been given solely to the group system. I support entirely the the committee. The committee is designed opinions expressed by the hon. members only to help us in a very good and practical for Roma and Windsor that open ballots way. It can be, and will be, of special have a lot to commend them. Here, per­ assistance in doing for us some of the things haps, is a point to exercise the minds of that have brought criticism of the Govern­ legal men. If, under the Commonwealth ment-perhaps unwarranted criticism-from Constitution, all citizens are equal and have people who thought that there was some­ equal rights, can the State reduce by legis­ thing wrong. lation each person's equal right to land? I Mr. W ALSH (Bundaberg) (11.21 p.m.): should like to hear that point argued. Per­ The Minister has got himself into the state haps the State can do it constitutionally. of mind that he really is satisfied with the I think that open ballots have the most principle incorporated in the clause. I do merit. I shall not traverse ground already not think I have seen him more enthusiastic covered, but I think that any intelligent at any stage of the debate than he has been man who wants to go on the land can be on this clause. He even went to the extent just as successful as the man who has been of saying that the speeches by hon. mem­ brought up on it. In some cases he can bers on the Government benches in support do better. It is found from time to time of the proposal had encouraged him to rise that men who have been on the land for and justify it. The fact is that of the three years have not been successful, despite the speakers on the other side of the Chamber advantages and opportunities that they have who rose to discuss the clause, two spoke had. against it-the hon. member for Fassifern I personally support open ballots and hope and the hon. member for Windsor. that the time will come when they will Mr. Fletcher: In part. They said they be the only type of land ballots held in liked open ballots. this State. I do not subscribe to the pro­ visions of this clause for the reasons that Mr. WALSH: There is no question about I have stated. it. The hon. member for Fassifern even said that he is going to vote against the Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) clause. He is a former Minister for Public (11.18 p.m.): I think that the hon. member Lands and the immediate predecessor of the for Carnarvon should know that the decision present Minister. The hon. member for of the commissioner or the committee of Windsor was quite open in his submissions. review accepting an application to select land He said that he favoured open ballots. as a selection shall not be final unless and Mr. Fletcher: Yes, but he did not mind until the application has been approved by the selective ballot being used in certain the court. If the court is satisfied that the application has not been made in good circumstances. faith, or that the applicant is not duly Mr. WALSH: I did not hear him say that. qualified under the provisions of the Bill or the opening notification to hold the land, Mr. Fletcher: You were not listening. or that the approval of the application would be otherwise contrary to any provision of Mr. WALSH: I was listening very intently, the Bill, the court shall refuse the applica­ and I do not think the hon. member for tion and the decision of the commissioner Windsor will accept the Minister's interpre­ or the committee of review, as the case may tation of what he said. He said he agreed be, shall be set aside. with the submissions of speakers from this Mr. Hilton: That is the successful appli­ side of the Chamber. cant, as you told me this afternoon. Mr. Smith: I disagreed with the hon. Mr. FLETCHER: Exactly, and if there member for Warrego. is any impropriety in the matter the Land Mr. WALSH: The hon. member disagreed A?ministration Commission member will, Without doubt, report it to the Minister who with the hon. member for Warrego and will produce such evidence to the 'court agreed with the hon. member for Fassifern. and the matter will not be approved. That is Mr. Smith: The hon. member for Fassi­ common knowledge, and it should have been fern had not spoken at that time. known by the hon. member for Carnarvon. The CHAffiMAN: Order! The question Mr. Hilton: I submit that you are mis­ leading the Committee. of agreement or disagreement will be decided when the vote is taken. Will the Mr. FLETCHER: I am not misleading hon. member for Bundaberg please proceed? the Committee. If there is impropriety and He has only a few minutes left. the Minister knows it. as he most certainly would, the court would not approve the Mr. WALSH: The Minister did say that application. Surely that is a sufficient safe­ he had support from Government members. guard for anybody. There is no doubt That is not true. 1878 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

I should also like to know from the Clause 91-Disqualifications.-- Minister whether there will be any remuner­ ation for members of the committee. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) The hon. member for Barcoo said that (11.30 p.m.): I move the following amend­ the committee will have power even to call ment:- young wives in and interrogate them. "On page 94, lines 10 to 29, omit sub­ Mr. Fletcher: Where is that in the Bill? clause (2)- '(a) Subject to this Act, any person Mr. WALSH: I am not saying what is in who holds land of an area or aggregated the Bill. The hon. member for Barcoo has areas of or exceeding two thousand put that suggestion forward. If the hon. five hundred and sixty acres under one member's suggestion is correct, will the or more of the following tenures, namely Minister give consideration to the appoint­ fee-simple, any tenure conferring the ment of a woman member to this com­ right of freehold purchase, or perpetual mittee so that the woman's point of view lease selection tenure, shall not be com­ will be represented when young wives are petent to apply for or hold a grazing called in? selection. Question-That Clause 90, as read, stand (b) For the purposes of this subsec­ part of the Bill-put; and the Committee tion a joint lessee or holder of land divided- under any tenure mentioned in this sub­ section shall be deemed to be the lessee In division- or holder under the tenure in question Mr. WALSH: Mr. Taylor, I should like a of an area proportioned to his actual ruling on this division. Because the hon. interest therein. member for Windsor has spoken against this (c) The provisions of this subsection clause he has given his voice to the "Noes". shall not affect the right or title of any Is he in order in voting for the "Ayes"? person to any grazing selection lawfully held by him as lessee under the repealed The CHAIRMAN: I cannot give a ruling Acts immediately prior to the com­ as I did not hear the hon. member for mencement of this Act or the power of Windsor. the Minister to grant to him a new lease under Part VI. of the whole or part of Mr. W ALSH: I draw your attention to the land comprised in such grazing Standing Order No. 155. selection or his right or title to take AYES, 31 and hold such new lease'." Mr. Beardmore Mr. Hughes ., Bjelke-Petersen Knox That is on all fours with a previous amend­ Camm Low ment I moved and which the Committee Camp bell Munro adopted with respect to disqualifications Carey Pi! beam Dewar Richter under preferential grazing homestead tenures. Ewan , Row This is the same provision with regard to Fletcher Smith Gaven Sullivan grazing selections, and it is felt that to be Gilmore Tooth consistent we have to do for the one as Harrison , Wharton Hart , Windsor for the other. Herbert Hewitt Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. Hodges Tellers: Hooper Mr. Armstrong Clause 91, as amended, agreed to. Houghton Dr. Delamothe Clauses 92 to 100, both inclusive, as read, NOES, 22 agreed to. Mr. Baxter Mr. Milller Clause 101-Approval by Court and notice .. Burrows Newton to applicant- Davies O'Donnell Dean , Sherrington , Dufficy , Thackeray Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Duggan , Tucker Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Gunn , Walsh (11.32 p.m.): I move the following amend­ Hanlon Hilton ment- Houston Tellers: "On page 106, line 27, omit the words-­ Inch , Lloyd Mr. Bennett 'duly qualified' M ann , Bromley and insert in lieu thereof the words- PAIRS 'in every respect eligible and other­ Mr. Nicklin Mr. Byrne wise qualified'." , Rae , Wallace , Lonergan ,. Graham I am quite sure that slight amendment will , Pizzey , Melloy commend itself to the Committee. , Ramsden , Donald Dr. Noble , Marsden Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. Resolved in the affirmative. Clause 101, as amended, agreed to. Land Bill (22 '·TQ\ 3ER] Land Bill 1879

Clause 102-Commencement of lease­ of the a:eas authorised by such special license to be enclosed together shall not Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ exceed twenty thousand acres.' " Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) (11.33 p.m.): I move the following amend­ Amendment agreed to. ment:- Clause 112, as amended, agreed to. "On page 107, lines 15 and 16, omit the Clause 113-Fencing road boundaries- words- 'shall commence on the quarter day Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham- next ensuing after the date of such Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) approval' (11.37 p.m.): I move the following and insert in lieu thereof the words­ amendment- 'the term of such lease shall com­ "On page 111, lines 39 and 40, omit mence on the quarter day next follow­ the words- ing the date of such approval'." 'six months' notice' This is exactly similar to a previous amend­ and insert in lieu thereof the words- ment, and I am sure it will commend itself 'such notice not longer than six months to the Committee. margin as the Court deems reason­ Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. able'." Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Mr. Mann: Why do you make it six S1inister for Public Lands and Irrigation) months? (11.34 p.m.): I move the following further amendment:- Mr. FLETCHER: It is a matter of clari­ "On page 107, lines 24 and 25, omit fying the wording in respect of the fencing. the words- As in some cases the length of fencing to 'and shall commence on the quarter be built on revocation of a licence may be day next ensuing after the date of quite small, it is thought more equitable to such payment' allow the court to fix the time for revocation, and insert in lieu thereof the words­ but such time is not to exceed six months. 'and the term of such lease shall com­ It is a matter of tidying it up and making mence on the quarter day next follow­ it easier and quicker. ing the date of such payment'." Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. I do not think any explanation is necessary. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Ar11endment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) Clause 102, as amended, agreed to. (11.38 p.m.): I move a further amendment­ Clauses 103 to 111, both inclusive, as read, "On page 112, line 7, omit the words- agreed to. 'on secondary road' and insert in lieu thereof the words­ Clayse 112-Fencing of contiguous grazing selectiOns-- 'secondary road, or any other road margin declared'." Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ It is felt that other roads not at present Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) in existence may be declared. It tidies the (11.36 p.m.): I move the following matter up for the future. amendment- Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. "On page 111, lines 16 to 22, omit the paragraph- Clause 113, as amended, agreed to. 'Such a license may, with the consent Clause 114--Method of performing con- of the owner of any freehold land which dition of personal residence- is contiguous to a selection, authorise the enclosure of such freehold land with Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunning ham­ such selection and any other selection Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) contiguous to such selection or to such (11.39 p.m.): I move the following freehold land, provided that the aggregate amendment- of the area authorised to be enclosed "On page 113, after line 3, insert the by such license does not exceed twenty following paragraph- thousand acres.' '(d) if, pursuant to Part IliA or Part IV and insert in lieu thereof the following of "The Public Curator Acts, 1915 to paragraph- 1957," the selection is under the 'Such a special license may, authorise control and management of or is vested the lessee of any grazing selection, with in the Public Curator, such condition the consent of the owner of any freehold may be performed by the continuous land or lessee of any selection contiguous and bona fide residence on the selection to the grazing selection to enclose such of a registered bailiff who is qualified grazing selection with such freehold land to select a similar selection and who or selection: Provided that the aggregate is appointed by the Public Curator.' " 1880 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

This is a new paragraph added to cover the Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. case wh7r7 the Public Curator is authorised to. ~drrumster the estate of a senile or Clause 119, as amended, agreed to. cnm~nal lessee. In such circumstances the Clauses 120 to 122, both inclusive, as read, Public Curator m~y appoint a bailiff to per­ agreed to. form personal res1dence or occupation. Clause 123-Tenure- Amendment (Mr. Fletcher) agreed to. Clause 114, as amended, agreed to. Mr. O'DONNELL (Barcoo) (11.44 p.m.): I Clauses 115 to 118, both inclusive, as wish to express opposition to the clause. It read, agreed to. begins- Cl~l!se 119-Modification of residential "( I) The term of lease of an agricultural conditions- farm shall be thirty years." ~ C~RMAN: The Minister has given Of course, we have no argument with that. notice ot an amendment for the insertion Our opposition begins with (2), where obvi­ of the . numeral and brackets "(1)" on page ously it refers to the granting of freehold 11~, hne 37. That will be automatically tenures at the expiration of the 30-year adjusted. period. This intention, though not stated, !J~ A: R. FL~TCHER (Cunningham­ is clearly indicated by the passage reading Mmlster for Public Lands and Irrigation) "purchasing price" etc., and the clause pro­ (11.41 p.m.); I move the following amend­ viding for the purchase of land in fee simple ment:- makes it evident that the purchasing prict· On page 115, lines 11 to 14, omit the will be paid over a period of 30 years. As proviso- we know, the Act provides for the purchar,e of land over 20 years. Now tlre 20-year Provided that such waiver or permit period is to be extended to 30 years, which ~ay be revoked by the Minister at any is an additional benefit. That means, of tlme upon three month&' notice to the course, that the purchaser will avoid land lessee and, in any event, shall cease to tax for 30 years, and have his rent pegged ~ of any force or effect if the selectiort for the full period. He will receive a title iS transferred.' in fee simple at the end of that period on and insert in lieu thereot the following payment of the valuation as fixed at the new sub-clauses- commencement of the term. Of course, . '(2) In the case of two or more selec­ valuations, on the trend we have experienced tiOns, each of which is at a distance in our lives, have spiralled tremendously, not exceeding thirty miles from each and if that continues in the next 30 years of ~lre others, held by members of a there will be eventually in the hands of these famtly bo:m fide in their own separate people properties with many times their mterests, rf the Commission is satisfied original values. That, of course, is one of that good reasons exist for permitting the obvious designs for this piece of legisla the mem)Jers of the family to live tion. Spiralling values will not affect the together, 1t may ~e~tify accordingly and purchase price, but the value at the end of thereup~n the Mm1ster for such period the period could be two, three, or four times as he thmks fit may permit the condition what it was originally. of personal residence or the condition of occupation attaching to the selections The annual payments under this system to be performed by their residence on can be classed as rents, and I think that if one of the selections. the Income Tax Department accepts the opinion that I have expressed, they will be '(3) Any waiver or permit granted taxation deductions as well. Consequently, pu!suant . to subsections (I) or (2) of thi.s . sectwn may be revoked by tlre the reasons for our opposition are very M1mster at any time upon three obvious. months' notice to the lessee or lessees concerned and, in any event, shall cease Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ to be of ~ny force or effect if any of Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) the selectwns m question is trans­ (11.47 p.m.): This is the freeholding argu­ ferred.'" ment all over again. I know that this has The new sub-clause (2) is added to cover the been considerably relaxed, and I also know case~ of variol!s members of the same family that the Income Tax Department does not holdn~g. selectwns in their separate names consider the payments as anything but pay­ and !Ivmg together on one selection. It is a ments of principal. I have received that compassionate sort of consideration. It has information from the Income Tax Commis­ been considere~ desirable. to give special sioner himself, and I think that his opinion stress to specml relaxatwn of residence can be relied on. con~itions so as to make it clear that such spec;ml power exists. This power was On the other matters, I respect the point similarly worded up to 1959 but in that of view of the Opposition, but we are year tlre present sub-clause (1) was intro­ freehold-minded on this side of the Chamber, duced, which, although probably just as wide and this is the way in which we have finally does not contain the specific words that mak~ decided to promote our policy in respect of it quite dear to people where thev stand. it. Land Bill [22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1881

Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (11.49 p.m.): there would not be a considerable apprecia­ I am not going to delay the Committee to tion of land values in this State-they will any extent on this clause. It does, of course, pay the value of the land as at present, include the freeholding principle, and all I irre-spective of the spiral in values that want to say is that the Opposition is com­ might take place in the meantime. pletely opposed to it and we intend to divide the Committee. Mr. Gilmore: There might be a fall in values. Question-That Clause 123, as read, stand part of the Bill-put; and the Committee Mr. DUFFICY: The hon. member has seen divided- a fall in values?

AYES, 31 Mr. Gilmore: Indeed I have. Mr. Armstrong Mr. Knox Mr. DUFFICY: Being continued for a , Beardmore Low , Bjelke-Petersen , MUller period of 30 years? I should like some , Campbell Munro indication of where it happened. The hon. , Carey Pi! beam Dr. Delamothe Richter member should not talk nonsense. Accord­ Mr. Dewar Row ing to him, one could buy a property in Ewan Smith Brisbane or in the West, or on the South Fletcher , Sullivan Gilmore Tooth Coast or anywhere else today at the same ,, Harrison Wharton value as would have been paid 30 years ago. , Herbert , Windsor Hewitt Mr. Gilmore: You can at Inglewood, and , Hodges , Hooper Tellers: you can on the Burdekin. , Houghton Mr. Camm , Hughes , Hart Mr. DUFFICY: That is absolute rubbish and the hon. members knows it. The allot­ NOES, 20 ment he could have bought in Brisbane Mr. Baxter Mr. Mann 30 years ago for £20 is closer to £1,000 Bennett , Newton now. I know very well that property that , Bromley , O'Donnell Burrows ,, Sherrington could have been bought for 5s. an acre , Davies , Tucker in the West 30 years ago would cost £1 Dean , Walsh an acre now and possibly more. The hon. Dufficy Duggan member for Roma knows that well. The Haul on Tellers: hon. member for Tablelands also knows Houston it, so he should not try to draw a red herring Inch Mr. Gunn , Lloyd , Thackeray across the trail. I am simply saying that this is a smart PAIRS move on the part of the Government to Mr. Nicklin Mr. Byrne , Rae , Wallace assist their friends. Do not make any , Lonergan , Graham mistake about it, over a 30-year period, , Pizzey , Melloy irrespective of the appreciation in values , Ramsden , Donald Dr. Noble , Marsden that will take place in that period, there will Resolved in the affirmative. not be any increase in the rent that has to be paid for that 30-year lease. If it was Clause 124-Savings- a perpetual lease or any other form of lease it would be subject to an increase in rents Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (11.54 p.m.): over a 10-year period and if there was an I ~ish to sp_eak only briefly on this clause, appreciation in value, so there would be which contams almost the same principle an appreciation in the rent that the lessee as the preceding clause on which the Com­ would have to pay. That is quite logical; mittee divided. As I understand it, the only we know that, but under this particular difference is that those people who have clause for the next 30 years, irrespective a 20-year lease under the Act will now be of the possibilities that might occur in this entitled to convert it to a 30-year lease. State, irrespective of the appreciation in land Mr. Ewan: The purchasing period. values, there will not be.. ~any increase in the rent that is paid for that 30-year lease and, at conclusion of the 30-year lease, which Mr. DUFFICY: I am speaking about a has been paid for in 30 annual instalments, lease. If the hon. member wants to talk the lessee then gets a title in fee simple, about a purchasing period, that is all right not at the value of the land at the end of but, as I understand the clause, it provides the 30 years, but at the value as at the time for the conversion of a 20-year lease to a 30-year lease on the payment of the pur­ when his application for the conversion was chasing price over 30 annual payments. Of made. I repeat that it is a smart act on the part of the Government to assist their course, as the hon. member for Barcoo friends. pointed out a while ago, it is quite a smart move on the part of the Government to assist Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (12 midnight): I their supporters. There is no question about do not necessarily want to express my opposL that. It is smart in this way: that instead tion to all the clauses but I want to remind of paying at the end of this 30-year lease the Deputy Leader of the Government that the value of the land at that time-and if he is thinking of staying here until day­ nobody would assume that over 30 years light, I am quite happy about that. 61 1882 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

On every one of the clauses that contains £150 a year, which I think is too high. the principle of conversion from leasehold On conversion to freehold the value was to freehold, I take it that the Australian struck at approximately £2 an acre. That Labour Party is going to divide the Com­ would mean that he would be paying £500 a mittee. If it is not, I am. year on a 20-year basis and, with the exten­ Clause 124 provides not only for the sion, it would be £350 a year. When we conditions relating to agricultural farms as come to consider the value struck on the set out in Clause 123 but also for the con­ land we find that it is really the value of version of certain perpetual lease selections the cost of the improvements on it. Anyone to agricultural farms to enable lessees to who keeps a piece of land for 20 or 30 take advantage of the Government's freehold years naturally expects it to be worth more. tenure policy. Consequently, there is no That applies to everything. It applies to an need for me to elaborate on the argument ordinary dwelling, and wages would rise over of freehold versus perpetual lease. tlre period as well. There has been a continual depreciation in the value of money. Mr. Ewan: You know how much better Quite apart from that, anyone who free­ freehold is. holds a block of land and pays a freehold premium each year to make it his own is Mr. W ALSH: I know how much better entitled to whatever it is worth. Hon. mem­ perpetual lease is. bers should not get the idea that anyone is In justification of the Government's free­ getting a throw-in. I have looked closely holding policy, I should like the Minister to into a number of these cases. The hon. give the Committee figures showing the member for Bundaberg simply threw out a number of applications that have been feeler about lrow many people have gont: received by the Government since it gave on with freeholding after making applica­ the right to the lessee to convert from lease­ tion and getting the value determined. hold to freehold. It would be interesting Unimproved land today is worth virtually ~vidence. if the Minister could produce that nothing. If you go out into the grazing mformat10n here. It would be considerable areas, Mr. Taylor, you will find that land in justific~ti~m for the Government's policy in the closer settled areas has been l-Onverted to determmmg to go on with freehold as freehold, but when you go out into the against l~a~ehold. I throw the challenge out back country and convert it to freehold its to the Mmister to produce to the Committee unimproved value is not very high. The figures of the number of applications that real value of the land held under lease now have been lodged by Crown tenants of the is the value of the improvements on it. The various types of leaseholds that can be con­ point is that anyone lrolding a lease today verted into freehold, and the total number can sell his improvements. If you were to t~at have .been finalised since the new prin­ look at the number of sales, Mr. Taylor, Ciple was mtroduced. I think the Committee you would find that in nearly every cc.se the is entitled to that information, in any case. price paid for the land is represented by I could waste my time by giving the Minister the improvements on it. When I intro­ notice of a question in the House, but it duced the legislation for freeholding I would be preferable if the Minister would believed that more people would not convert give it to the Committee now. to freehold than would, but we were giving tlrose who wished to convert to freehold the Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ opportunity to do so. If an owner put Minister for Public Lands and Irrigation) costly improvements on the land, say, at (12.2 a.m.): It is unreasonable to expect me £20 an acre, it would not be advisable for to give the statistics at this stage. If the him to go on with the lease. He would ~on. me_mber is worried about it, I can get face the danger that at some time it could It for him tomorrow. This is the old free­ be taken from him. It is not likely that hold ~rgumen~. I have said that I respect would happen because over the years succes­ the pomt of VIew of hon. members opposite. sive Governments have always been very W.hat the hon. member for Warrego has considerate of any tenant who has carried smd about freehold before is equally applic­ out extensive improvements. However, able on this occasion. He has said most of there was a risk with a big holding. Up to it again. We understand one another's the present only an area of 5,000 acres has point of view. been permitted, but under tlre amending legislation that is increased to 10,000 acres. Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (12.3 a.m.): In Hon. members can see that anyone who puts a matter of this kind we have to take an extra money into these small blocks and impartial view. We have to examine it very improves them to a very high standard carefully before we exercise our vote. These pays an extra premium over the years, but values that are struck are on a freehold basis. he is not getting any throw-in. He is only If an owner holds his land for 20 or 30 securing the money he has put into improve­ years, to get anything out of it he has to ments on the property. improve it. If the land requires a good deal of work and money to improve it, he should Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (12.9 a.m.): pay the extra premium. Let me give an The hon. member referred to a number of illustration. I have in mind an application freeholders earlier in the debate. Tlre that was made. The present rental is about Minister said that any person could take Land Bill (22 NOVEMBER] Land Bill 1883

advantage of the provision for converting a previous debates, it is quite possible for property to either freehold or perpetual Khrushchev to hold shares in a company, lease. If I remember correctly, he said that to hold more than a controlling interest, and they were worth approximately the same, for that company to hold an unlimited area which indicates that perpetual lease is attrac­ of freehold land in this country. tive. In the Monto district there is any amount of freehold land and any amount of It is not possible for the average small perpetual lease. You find, when you ask man to take advantage of freeholding and selectors, banks, or finance houses, and see to get the bargain that this Government offers farms offered for sale, that there is no differ­ to the select few who can afford it. They ence between the prices asked for freehold appear to be the only concern of this farms and for perpetual lease farms. Government. Mr. Sullivan: You don't believe that, do Question-That Clause 124, as read, stand you? part of the Bill-put; and the Committee divided- Mr. BURROWS: I can assure the hon. member that, no matter where he goes, in AYES, 31 my district or in any other district, or even Mr. Armstrong Mr. Houghton , Beardmore , Hughes if he reads the advertisements in "Country , Bjelke-Petersen Knox Life", he will find that even for leasehold , Camm Low country with a limited number of years to ., Campbell M tiller ., Carey Munro run they want £3, £4 and £5 an acre. It Dr. Delamothe Pi! beam is all the result of the urge and desire, Mr. Dewar Richter unsatisfied because of this Government's Ewan Row Fletcher Tooth P">licy. There is not enough land to meet Gilmore Wharton the demand. As a consequence we have , Harrison Windsor inflated values. , Hart , Herbert Tellers: Hewitt Any primary producer will tell you today , Hodges Mr. Smith that, if he allows a reasonable amount for , Hooper Sullivan interest on the capital value of his land, along with working expenses, his is not NoEs, 20 a very good investment. I can see Govern­ Mr. Baxter Mr. Mann ment members nodding their heads and Bennett Newton , Bromley O'Donn.::ll agreeing with me, and it is a fact. Burrows , Sherrington Davies , Thackeray Mr. Harrison: You are just finding out Dean , Walsh from hard experience. Dufficy Duggan , Gunn Tellers: Mr. BURROWS: I do not deny that; Hanlon b0t, instead of trying to correct the position, Houston Mr. Inch the Government is aggravating it and mak­ , Lloyd , Tucker ing it very many times worse. That is PAIRS If why I so loudly condemn it. the Minis­ Mr. Nicklin Mr. Byrne ter studied the numbers of people who have , Rae Wallace taken advantage of the freehold provision , Lonergan , Graham , Pizzey , Melloy over the last five years and examined the , Ramsden , Donald tenants who have done so, he would find Dr. Noble , Marsden that it supported the argument of the A.L.P. Resolved in the affirmative. that this is a big man's Government and that it has no time for the little man. The Clause 125-When fee simple of agricul­ little man cannot convert; he just has not tural farm may be acquired- got the money. It is only the big land­ holder like the Rubens and the Maceys who Mr. DUFFICY (Warrego) (12.20 a.m.): We can do it. Financially the small man can­ intend to oppose this clause, too, because it not afford it. includes the freeholding provision contained in preceding clauses. I do not wish to argue Mr. Sullivan: Of course they are doing it. at any length the desirability of freeholding, but I should like to read from an article Mr. BURROWS: They are not doing it contributed by Mr. Haigh, the Commissioner at all. The hon. member for Condamine of Irrigation and Water Supply in Queens­ is not even fooling himself. No matter how land, to a magazine published by the Aus­ you look at freeholding, it favours the big tralian Institute of Management, in which man. It allows for big aggregation and it he appears to agree with arguments that caters for it. we have advanced during the years since The argument has been raised "Oh, we can this Government assumed office. He said- beat that with land tax." The Government "In Victoria and New South Wales cannot, because all they do is form a sub­ where freehold tenures are in the majority, sidiary company or another company and both States have found it necessary, in they can hold an unlimited amount, as long achieving the intensity of land use and as they can hold shares in the company and settlement which is serving them so well, it can hold land. As we have pointed out in to resume for subdivision large areas of 1884 Land Bill [ASSEMBLY] Land Bill

freehold lands. From 1905 to 1959 New of the many reasons we are opposing Clause South Wales has acquired 7,112,623 acres 125. We intend to divide the Committee at a cost of £34,718,000 for this purpose." on it. Mr. Haiglr had very much more to say, but Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (12.27 a.m.): I shall not delay the Committee by reading Some clauses in this Bill provide for con­ it. I think that particular portion is relevant. version of leasehold into freehold tenure. If the Government continues its present Clause 125 provides- policy of alienating lands belonging to the "Subject to satisfying the Minister that State, there will be no need for the port­ he has performed all the developmental folio of Minister for Public Lands, and the or improvement conditions (including the very capable officers of that department who condition of fencing or other improvr::­ are sitting in the lobby possibly will be ment) of the lease of his selection, a lessee gainfully employed in another department. of an agricultural farm may at any time There will be no Minister for Public Lands, complete the purchase by paying the no Commissioner of Lands, and no employees amount then unpaid of the pur ;basing in the Department of Public Lands. Any­ price and interest there'On, if any, to the one wanting information about lands in the date of such payment. State will go to the Titles Office. "Upon so satisfying the Minister and To show that the policy of the Govern­ completing the purchase and upon paying ment is tending in that direction, I might any moneys payable to the Crown in mention that the first amendment to the respect of the selection on account of Land Act introduced by the present Govern­ survey fees or on any other account ment provided for the freeholding of an area whatsoever which are unpaid, the lessee not in excess of 2,560 acres. The next shall be entitled to a grant in fee-simple amendment provided for the freeholding of of the land comprised in the lease." an area up to 5,000 acres, and the Bill now The clause we dealt with earlier provided under discussion provides for the freeholding that a lessee could make these payments of up to 10,000 acres. I suggest that if the over a period of 30 years, but now, if a Government remains in power much longer lessee wishes to, he can do it in a matter we will see an amendment introduced pro­ of 10 years, or much less than that. If viding for the freeholding of living areas he is in a financial position to do it he within Queensland, and that will include, of can get his freehold title at any time. I course, areas of 60,000 acres in the west of do not suggest that we can complain about Queensland. If it remains in office, all the that if the Government is accepting this as lands of the State will be alienated a policy, but I again want to register my and the people of Queensland will have opposition to this principle. There are a to buy back their own land, as the few more to be considered as we go along people of Victoria and New South Wales and I again ask the Minister, if he can do have had to buy their land back. it at some stage during the discussion on That is what it will amount to. They have this measure, to give the Committee informa­ had to do that as mentioned in the quotation tion showing the number of perpetual leases I have just read. An amount of over in Queensland as at 1957 and the number of applications that have been received by £34,000,000 has been spent in New South the department for conversion to these Wales for purchasing back land that was tenures, perpetual lease or any other tenure alienated from the State. I gave an instance that is eligible for conversion into freehold­ i_n this Chamber previously of a property the number of applications made, the m my own area, Am by Downs 70 000 number finalised, and the amount involved acres of freehold, not freeholded' by 'this in the unimproved prices. That will be Government but by a previous anti-Labour very inte·resting information and I am sure Government. Sooner or later, some Govern­ that if the Government have a case for ment of Queensland will have to resume this phase of its policy it should be ever that area of 70,000 acres because of pressure ready to submit these details to justify it. of population. The land-hungry people will make that an absolute necessity. If it Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (12.30 a.m.): happened today, I venture to say that it Previous speakers have failed to interpret would cost Queensland something between the clause correctly. The agricultural farm £500,000 and £750,000 to resume that tenure is already freehold. This provision 70,000 acres. The people of Queensland was made long before the present Govern­ would be paying to purchase back an area ment took office. All it means is that anyone of land, which should have reverted to the with one of these agricultural farms will Crown, from the company that freeholded be entitled to pay the unpaid balance. If it at no cost to the people of Queensland he is paying it off in ten years and has paid other than for the improvements that were half, he can complete the total payment and placed on it which, anyway, would not be get a deed. If he so desires he can pay a charge against the State but against the cash and pay the purchase price right out. incoming tenants. That is the position we All the clause does is to confirm the contract are reaching in this State and that is one that he has made some years ago when taking Land Bill (23 NOVEMBER] Questions 1885 up the block as an agricultural farm. There NoEs, 20 is no change of tenure at all. It merely Mr. Baxter Mr. Inch Bennett , Lloyd enables the holder to complete the purchase. , Bromley M ann It has been in existence for years. I think Burrows O'Donnell it applied before the present Government took Davies ., Thackeray Dea'1 Tucker office. The clause gives the holder the right Dufficy Walsh to pay cash or to complete his purchase Duggan on terms. Gunn Tellers: Hanlon Mr. Bromley Houston , Sherrington Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (12.32 a.m.): I am afraid that the hon. member for Fassifern PAIRS has not read the clause correctly. It has Mr. Nicl{lin Mr. Byrne , Rae Wallace to be read in conjunction with other clauses. , Lonergan , Graham In sub-clause (5) of Clause 124 there is , Pizzey , Melloy provision for the conversion of certain , Ramsden , Donald perpetual leases. Dr. Noble , Marsden Resolved in the affirmative. Mr. Muller: That is another matter altogether. Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong-Deputy Premier): I move- Mr. W ALSH: If the hon. member read "That you do now leave the chair, Clause 123 carefully, he would see that to report progress, and ask leave to sit again." make any of these types of tenure eligible Question-That the motion (Mr. Munro) fm the land to be held under freehold title be agreed to-put; and the Committee it is necessary to convert them into agricul­ divided- tural farms. I know only too well that the In division- old agricultural farm principle was in opera­ tion years ago. Let me remind the Mr. WALSH: I remind you, Mr. Taylor, hon. member that between 1932 and 1957 that the hon. member for Port Curtis callad no Crown lands were alienated under freehold "Divide!" and I ask that his vote be recorded with mine. tenure. Therefore it can be said that no Crown land was taken up as agricultural Mr. Burrows: I deny it. farms since the Labour Government came The CHAffiMAN: Order! Irrespective of into power in 1932 and amended the law the hon. member's remark, there being fewer shortly after. The existing contracts were than five members on one side, the question respected by the Labour Government when is resolved in the affirmative. it was returned to power in 1932. Since Resolved in the affirmative under Standing then there has been no such provision until Order No. 148. this Government came into power and pro­ Progress reported. vided for freehold tenure. The hon. member The House adjourned at 12.45 a.m. for Fassifern will see in a later clause covering perpetual lease selections that the lease shall not contain a covenant that the lessee is entitled to a title in fee simple. I should like the hon. member for Fassifern to be clear that neither the hon. member for Warrego nor I is confused about this clause. This clause has to be read in conjunction with Clauses 123 and 127 par­ ticularly. That is all I have to say at this stage. Question-That Clause 125, as read, stand part of the Bill-put; and the Committee divided-

AYES, 31 Mr. Armstrong Mr. Hughes , Beardmore , Knox , Bjelke-Petersen Low ., Carum , MUller , Campbell , Munro Dr. Delamothe , Pilbeam Mr. Dewar ,, Richter , Ewan , Row , Fletcher , Smith , Gilmore , Sullivan , Harrison , Tooth , Hart Mr. Windsor , Herbert , Hewitt ,, Hodges Tellers: , Hooper Mr. Carey , Houghton , Wharton